Time Travel in PoA (was: Lupin is James - time travel)

Sat Dec 28 00:21:52 UTC 2002

No: HPFGUIDX 48887

> >> Sharana wrote:

 Back to Potterverse you say that the event that triggers the loop
> >> is the act of going back in time. Yes, but you have to be alive 
> >> to go back in time. Harry is alive because a Patronus drove the 
> >> Dementors away before the kiss. Even if he had received the kiss 
> >> and goes back in time, he would not be able (being soulless) to 
> >> cast the Patronus, so someone else must have done it (the first 
> >> time), Harry later going back in time changed the fact on who 
> >> cast the Patronus from that loop on, but he couldn't have cast it
> >> the first time.
> >> 

> >Kristen wrote:

> >Ok, I admit it, this time loop talk gives me a headache.  Maybe 
I'm 
> >being very dense here, but why couldn't it be Harry the first
> >time? If it had to be someone else, then who attended all of 
> >Hermione's classes?  

> Sharana wrote:

> Don't worry Kristen, time loop talk is really complicated, 
> especially when you don't have graphics to aid you. I'll try to put 
> it as simple as I can (which is probably a lot more complicated 
than 
> I said before). 
> 
> First of all Hermione's classes is a different case than Harry 
> casting the Patronus the first time. Why? Hermione goes back in 
time 
> to attend to classes; she doesn't risk dying in doing so, unless 
you 
> count exhaustion, ;-) 
> 
> Hermione's time loop concerning her classes:
> 
> Let's say Classes 1, 2 and 3 are at the same hour (9 am), Classes 4 
> and 5 are both at 10 am. Each class is one hour long. That means 
she 
> must cover 5 hours of classes from 9 to 11 am. (2 hour period) (See 
> chart below )
> 
> She enters classes 1 (9 am) and 4 (10 am). She then establishes a 
> time loop going back in time, she lives these hours again (Second 
> time) only she attends classes 2 (9 am) and 5 (10 am). From her 
> point of view she has been in class for 4 hours, but she still 
needs 
> to cover Class 3 so she activates another loop and goes back a 
third 
> time. While she is in class 3 (9 am), there are two other 
Hermione's 
> around: Herm-1 which is in Class 1 and Herm-2 which is in class 2. 
> By the end of class 3 she has been in class for 5 hours, (but she 
is 
> the only one who went back in time, the rest of the kids only had 2 
> hours) she ended class 3 at 10 am, but the loop was established at 
> 11 am, she still has to wait an hour to get out of the time loop, 
> she probably hides to do some homework. That is why she gets so 
> exhausted during PoA, she is awake and studying and attending 
> classes for a lot more hours than everybody else, she does not rest 
> enough. To her, the days do not last 24 hours long, they must last 
> about 35 hours. 
> 
> Loops    [Cls 1]  [Cls 2]  [Cls 3] [Cls 4]   [Cls5]    [BackInTime]
> 1stTime   Herm-1                   Herm-1            Herm-1 -> Herm-
2
> 2ndTime           Herm-2                     Herm-2  Herm-2 -> Herm-
3
> 3rdTime                    Herm-3                      She doesn't
> 
> 
> Harry and Hermione's Time loop concerning the Patronus... 
> 
> Remember, the loop BEGINS the moment you go back in time the first 
> time, NOT when the Patronus is cast.
> 
> Harry is surrounded by Dementors, one of them kisses him, he now is 
> soulless so he cannot go back in time to cast a Patronus. So 
someone 
> else (X-Guy) goes back in time and casts the Patronus for him, 
which 
> makes the Dementor retreat before he kisses Harry (Harry-1), Harry 
> is OK and goes back in time with Hermione. Harry (Harry-2) decides 
> he wants to see who cast the Patronus that saved Harry-1, he 
> suddenly believes it was him so he has the confidence to do it and 
> he does. X-Guy is near Harry-2 and was about to cast the Patronus, 
> but Harry-2 didn't see him, X-Guy hides from the Harry-2  while 
> Harry-2 casts the Patronus. The loop will continue with Harry 
> casting the Patronus. He could not do it the first time because he 
> was kissed, making him incapable of casting any spell.
> 
> Loops   [DemKiss] [PatCast]  [DemRetreat]  [Harry Back In Time]  
> 1stTime  Harry-1     No           No
> 2ndTime  Harry-1    X-Guy        Yes       Harry-1 -> Harry-2
> 3rdTime  Harry-2   Harry-1       Yes       Harry-2 -> Harry 3
> And so on...

And now me:

Firstly, sorry for quoting so much, but the issue of time travel 
becomes very complicated.

There is no one definition on time travel across all fantasy/sci-
fiction texts. This is because there is several different ways of 
approaching it. Theories as I understand them go as such:

1) That every time one goes back in time they actually travel into a 
parallel universe (that is, they create a loop of the world they were 
in). The future forms of a person don't exist in the initial world.

 So, if you take this to be the type of time travel used in PoA, it 
means that in the Buckbeak was initially executed, as Future Harry 
and Hermione didn't exist yet. This phases no real problems as H2/H2 
rescue him in the second existence and the actions of the executioner 
match what was originally heard anyway. However, it would also mean 
that Harry was indeed soul-sucked by the Dementor. This is where this 
theory of time-travel doesn't match the events of the book, as it 
would mean that Harry effectively 'died.' Which would mean that he 
couldn't go back in time later to save himself, Hermione and Sirius 
(and consequently the entire rest of the Harry Potter novels). This, 
obviously, suggests that this type of time travel doesn't occur with 
the use of a time-turner.

2) The second type you have described above. It is basically a slight 
variation on the first one I described. It is; that every time one 
goes back in time they actually travel into a parallel universe 
(creating a loop). The future forms of a person don't exist in the 
initial world, but other people (person-X) takes on the roles of what 
they will do in the future. 

To translate this into an example, it would mean that H2/H2 didn't 
exist in the initial time span to rescue Buckbeak, but some other 
person (person-X) did it. Then, in the second universe person-X 
didn't have to save Buckbeak, as he was already saved (by H2/H2). For 
the incidents with the Dementors at the Lake, it would mean that 
person-X cast the Patronus in the first universe, then stepped aside 
to let Harry cast it in the second universe. 

Whilst this is a valid form of time-travel, I don't agree with it in 
the PoA sense, because it asks the question: Who is person-X??? As 
far as we're aware the only people who know Hermione has a time-
turner is McGonagall and Dumbledore. Dumbledore's amused actions at 
Buckbeaks appeal (where he stalls Macnair those few extra seconds 
that enable H2/H2/BB to escape, the way he has a slightly amused tone 
when Buckbeak's absence is discovered and his comment to 'search the 
skies' imply that he is very well aware that there is something fishy 
going on. This could mean that he is person-X in the first existence 
in relation to Buckbeaks's departure. Only, he doesn't look 
remarkably like James Potter to be person-X who casts the Patronus. 

3) The third theory of time-travel is much simpler. That is, 
everything happened only once. When you go back in time you don't 
enter a parallel world, you go back to the initial one, and future 
forms on one self are free to interact with the events of the past.

This one fits the events of PoA much better than either of the two 
described above. Unknown to Harry, Hermione and Ron, future forms of 
Harry and Hermione are simultaneously doing things around the school. 
When they are walking down to visit Hagrid underneath the 
invisibility cloak they hear 'a pair of people hurrying across the 
hall, and a door slamming.' Then, when we hear this event relayed 
from the perspective of H2/H2 it sounds like this: 'Hermione seized 
Harry's arm and dragged him across the hall to the door of a broom 
cupboard; she opened it, pushed him inside amongst the buckets and 
mops, followed him in, then slammed the door behind them.' which 
sounds exactly the same. If you take this form of time-travel to be 
the type used, it means that H2/H2 were hiding around Hagrid's hut 
and were the people who lead Buckbeak to safety. It means that Harry 
was the person (and indeed the *only* person) who cast the Patronus 
at the edge of the Lake. It also makes much more sense in regard to 
Hermione's timetable. She misses a charms class (cheering charms). 
She can't go back in time to sit through it because time exists only 
as one universe, and there is *extremely* strict rules dictating that 
one can't change time. That is, Harry and Ron realised that she 
wasn't in charms, so she couldn't go back and attend the class. If 
time-travel existed in a parallel universe style in HP where every 
time you go back you enter another world, then it wouldn't matter 
what Harry and Ron noticed, as Hermione would go to another world 
when she tipped over her time-turner in which Charms hadn't existed 
yet, so Harry and Ron hadn't noticed she wasn't there. Of course, 
even in the world of singular time existence you can do this- only 
it's changing time, which Hermione *mustn't* do.

So, that sums up the tree theories of time travel that I'm familiar 
with. I believe that the third one has been used in PoA. Mostly 
because it is ever so much simpler that the other two, and doesn't 
leave any gaps open (things like; who is person-X?). Other pieces of 
canon evidence that support that type three is indeed the type of 
time-travel used are:

'This is three hours ago, and we are walking down to Hagrid's,' said 
Hermione. 'We just heard ourselves leaving ...' Which suggests that 
it is a singular time existence.

"And then came the howling, and this time they could hear Hagrid's 
words through his sobs." Which suggests that they are experiencing 
the same event from a different perspective, not merely a new event.

"And then it hit him - he understood. He hadn't seen his father - he 
had seen himself -" Which also suggests that it was a singular time 
existence.

These all suggest that the use of a time-turner employs singular 
time, not parallel time. Both 1 and 2 rely on the idea that time-
travel takes you into another parallel world.

In relation to a specific part of the above quoted material, I 
believe that Sharana has mixed two different forms of time-travel 
theory. Sharana has employed the theory of number 2 for some 
instances (the big important ones) but then number 3 for other ones 
(Hermione's class schedule). Whilst I'm not directly criticising 
Sharana, I'm just suggesting that this couldn't exist in the same 
world using the same piece of apparatus. The Time-turner (presumably) 
can't discriminate if when you go back in time you will be in a life-
threatening situation, so should treat all the same. By this I mean, 
that if indeed there is person-X time-travel, then there should be a 
Hermione place-holder who went to all of her classes the first time, 
looking exactly like her, and interacting the same as she does who 
then disappeared as soon as real Hermione appeared. Because Hermione 
uses time-travel so frequently and we would many times 
simultaneously, it seems unlikely. 

I often wonder about the use of person-X time-travel, as if someone 
was already there, why go back in the first place? By that I mean, if 
Harry and co. were already saved by mysterious person on the other 
side of the Lake, where is the need to go back and save them?? (of 
course, it should be noted that no-one had any idea that they were 
going to be in need of saving when H2/H2 were sent back).

Also, on a completely trivial note in regards to Hermione's daily 
routine, I'd always assumed it would have been easier for her to go 
back singular hours at a time, not two classes with breaks in 
between, simply because they was less chance of her being seen, which 
appears to be the almighty rule of going back in time- 'you know the 
law - you know what is at stake ... You - must - not - be - seen.' 
says Dumbledore in the hospital wing.

Anyway, that's enough from me. I do hope my summaries of possible 
time-travel scenarios were easy enough to understand, and that I 
haven't confused anyone further.

(And now I'm giving myself a headache- too much time-travel theory 
does that to people)

~<(Laurasia)>~