Time travel in PoA/Time only moves forward

[annemehr <annemehr@yahoo.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 48982

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sharana.geo <sharana.geo at y...>" 
<sharana.geo at y...> wrote:
 
> First of all I wish to tell you that I am still thinking, I 
> understood what you said but I am still in the process of accepting 
> it. I'll post some random thoughts I've had about it. Maybe your 
> answers will help me in my thinking process. 
> 
> The one thing I have realized is why it is so difficult for me to 
> accept it. I've known how to program software since I was 13 (or 
> something) and the process of it has always been easy for me. When 
> you are programming loops, you always need to establish a starting 
> point, set initial variables. To program loops is easy for me too. 
> This is why I understand easily Theory 3 (and time loops), but it is 
> the same reason why it is hard for me to believe how a loop can 
> exist without an initial state to set it off.
> 
> One thing that is bothering me, which I haven't mentioned before, is 
> that when Harry goes to the lake and casts the Patronus, we are 
> seeing things from his perspective, but we never get to recheck 
> about-to-be-kissed Harry to corroborate that he is seeing things 
> (his perspective) the same way as we saw before. 
> 
<snip>

Well, maybe we do.  In Lupin's office, after Lupin has gone and Harry 
is left alone with Dumbledore, he tells Dumbledore about thinking that 
he had seen his Dad across the lake (sorry I can't quote exactly -- 
the book is in the room with the sleeping husband).  He felt he could 
talk about it to Dumbledore because he could trust Dumbledore not to 
laugh, and then he tells him all about it.  I think if anything had 
changed about Harry's perception of events, he would have said so 
then.


> I repeat, I am still thinking, and thinking, and thinking...
> 
> 
> Sharana...

And you've certainly got us thinking, too!  :-D

I am responding to both the time-travel threads here.  As I was 
catching up on all the posts since Friday, I was thinking much the 
same thing as Steve (bboy_mn).  I am going to try to illustrate it 
with a fairly simple metaphor, and defend the "theory #3" of the time 
travel thread.

Think of time itself as something linear we are all travelling along, 
such as a tape measure, marked off in hours instead of inches or 
centimeters.  During the relevant events in PoA, we are observing what 
happens between the 9:00 p.m. and 12:00 midnight marks.  The tape 
measure itself does *not* loop; rather, an outside observer would see 
two Harrys and two Hermiones between 9:00 and 12:00.

Only *one* version of events happened, because there is only one tape 
measure, which is *not* looped upon itself.  Everyone except Harry and 
Hermione pass along this stretch of the tape measure once and 
experience events as they remember them at 12:15 and ever after.  The 
only anomaly is that there are two Harrys and two Hermiones between 
9:00 and 12:00.  From Harry and Hermione's point of view, they 
experience this time segment twice.  From outside, there are two sets 
of Harry and Hermione existing simultaneously.  In this one and only 
version of events, Buckbeak is saved and it is Harry who casts the 
patronus to ward off the dementors.

Now to address the question of what caused the time loop in the first 
place?

Well, first of all, in this theory time itself does not loop; only 
Harry and Hermione travel a stretch of it twice.

Okay, then, how does Harry live through the dementor threat to use the 
time turner?  How does *he* loop back to save himself if he gets 
kissed first?

I think maybe where you are getting stuck is because of the nature of 
cause and effect.  Normally, a cause has to happen before or at least 
during the effect.  If I put water in the freezer, then I get ice 
eventually (cause before effect).  Or, if I have my eyelids closed, 
then I can't see this screen (cause during effect).

But what happens during time travel is *by definition* completely 
different and counter-intuitive.  The *cause* is: Harry and Hermione 
use the time-turner at 12:00 on the tape measure.  The *effects* are 
that Harry and Hermione reenter time at 9:00 on the tape measure, 
cross the entrance hall, save Buckbeak, see themselves do what they 
remember doing originally as HH1, Harry casts the patronus, they save 
Sirius, and get themselves back down to the hospital wing by 12:00 in 
order to be where everyone but Dumbledore "knows" they must be, *just 
when* they are using the time-turner.  *All* the effects happen 
*before* the cause which occurs at 12:00.

To simplify, for the case of the patronus:  the *cause* is the use of 
the time-turner at 12:00.  Part of the *effect* is that Harry is 
across the lake to cast the patronus spell to save their lives.  The 
effect happens earlier in time than the cause does *because it is time 
travel into the past*.  The magical object called the time-turner 
affects things that happened *before* you use it -- that is its 
function.

I hope that my explanation is clear enough.  I really think it is the 
idea that the time-turner casts its effect backward in time, so that 
the effect happens *before* the cause, that is hanging you up on the 
question of how Harry could have always cast the patronus.  But that 
*is* the magic of the time-turner.

I find it amusing to think of it this way.  Harry, in the grasp of the 
dementor, receives the *effect* of the patronus' help and lives.  He 
lives until 12:00 when he experiences the *cause* of Hermione using 
the time-turner with him.  He continues living from 9:00 on until he 
experiences the *effect* of being able to cast the patronus.  So, to 
Harry's point of view, he receives the patronus' help before using the 
time-turner, but he actually casts the patronus *after* (from his 
point of view) using the time-turner.  No wonder Harry says, "this is 
the weirdest thing we've ever done."

To borrow from Steve, since I can't resist:
That's JKR's story and I'm sticking to it.
(at least, I'm pretty sure it is <g>)

As for Pip!Squeak's idea that it is an "accident", I don't agree.  
This was a deliberate action.

As for Harry doing something wrong when he went to try to see who it 
was who had cast the patronus, I disagree with this also.  After all, 
he did need to go out to get a better view, to know just when they 
would be able to rescue Sirius.  Yes, he went where he did so that he 
would also have a view of the one who cast the patronus, but he was 
taking care to remain well hidden, and it was dark.  I am ready to 
admit that if he had, as he had hoped, seen his father, he might very 
well have done something rash, but this never happened.  He only leapt 
out from behind the bush when he realized that *he was* the one who 
cast the patronus.

Annemehr
Who is now wondering how Dumbledore, after hearing and believing 
Sirius, had time to figure out on his way to the hospital wing that it 
might be Harry and Hermione, using the time-turner, who may have taken 
Buckbeak and might yet rescue Sirius with him...