Dumbledore as Voldemort

[sharana.geo <sharana.geo@yahoo.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 49023

Gregory Lynn wrote:
> Do you think it's possible that Dumbledore might be some sort of
> reformed Lord Voldemort?
>
> In a nutshell, the theory is that Voldemort does his thing zaps
> Harry, goes poof, comes back, and somewhere along the lines of the
> end of the last book he is transformed either by a mere
> personality change or some serious magic or something we don't yet
> know.  What he becomes is the anti-Voldemort, Dumbledore. 
> Dumbledore then goes back in time to try to counter the evil he
> did as Voldemort.
>
> I don't think there are a lot of people who will disagree when I
> say there is a strong theme of transformation (somewhat broadly
> defined)  in these books.  By broadly defined I mean both actual
> transformation (e.g. Sirius the man turns into a dog) but apparent
> transformations based on a new perspective on the part of someone
> (e.g. Sirius Black is "transformed" from evil murdering swine to
> loving godfather).
>
> Obviously for this to happen, Voldemort/Dumbledore would have to
> live an absurdly long time since Dumbledore is already ancient.
> But we know that Voldemort has done just about everything he
> possibly could to prevent his own death.  Meanwhile Dumbledore
> looks upon death as just the next great adventure.  Couldn't
> Dumbledore have this feeling that once he makes right all the
> wrongs he made, he'll be able to die with a clean conscience.
>
> Also obviously, there needs to be some messing with time.  We've
> seen several relevant things with the Time Turner.  First, that
> time travel is possible.  Second, that Dumbledore knows about it's
> powers and limitations.  Third, that Dumbledore is willing to
> violate the rules of time travel for the greater good.
>
> And finally, doesn't it just seem like Dumbledore has seen it all
> before?
>
> I'm not altogether convinced Dumbledore is Voldemort, but I can't
> shake the feeling it might be true.  Maybe.
>
> Thoughts anyone?


That is a very loose way of defining "transformation"!  ;-)
What you call "apparent transformation" is really "to get to know 
someone better". Any way, as anything is possible, let's give it a 
thought.

I think it is unlikely that Dumbledore is a reformed Voldemort. 
First of all, I can't imagine what can happen that can make an all-
evil wizard turn into an all-good one. The only example I can think 
of is Star Wars: Anakin/Darth Vader. Anakin turned to the dark side 
to become Darth Vader who was really bad. Later Luke managed to turn 
him back to being Anakin. But Anakin was never all-good. He was only 
human with flaws and insecurities. So Darth Vader (really bad) 
turned back into Anakin (human, not all-good).

You seem to suggest that Dumbledore wishes to undo the bad things 
Voldemort did going back in time. First there is the age issue: 
Remember Dumbledore was Voldemort's transfiguration teacher

1.- Harry was born in 1980. Harry's first year in Hogwarts is in
    1991 (check the Lexicon). That would make Harry's 7th year in
    1998.
2.- Hagrid and Voldemort studied together which would make them
    about the same age. JKR says that (in 1991) Hagrid is about 70
    years old and Dumbledore 150 years old. So let's say Voldemort
    is 70 years old. That would make his birth date in 1921. By the
    7th book Voldemort would be 77 years old. At age 77 he
    transforms into Dumbledore and goes back in time.

How much back? Lets see...

In SS/PS (US), Ch. 6: The Journey from Platform Nine and Three 
Quarters (Page 102-103):
> Albus Dumbledore. Currently Headmaster of Hogwarts.
> Considered by many the greatest wizard of modern times, Dumbledore
> is particularly famous for his defeat of the dark wizard
> Grindelwald in 1945, for the discovery of the twelve uses of
> dragon blood, and his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicolas
> Flamel.

So Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald about the time Voldemort entered 
Hogwarts (Hagrid was expelled in his 3rd year).

Let's assume that Dumbledore "jumped" back in time to 1945, just in 
time to defeat Grindelwald. That would make our 1991 Dumbledore 
would be: 

77 + (1991-1945) = 77 + 46 = 123 years old. 

So for Dumbledore to be 150 years old, he should have "born" 
(150 - 123) = 27 years earlier: in 1917. 

Check it out:
Voldemort born in 1921. 
In 1998 he is 77. Goes back in time.
For Dumbledore to be 150 in 1991, his "date birth" must be in 1917.
So he has aged (1991 - 1917) 74 more years.
77 + 74 = 151 (error factor of 1 from 150, doesn't matter).

But in PoA, in the Shrieking Shack scene, when Lupin and Sirius are 
explaining to the kids that they are Animagus, Hermione says that it 
isn't possible because she looked up in the MoM Animagi registers of 
this century to look up McGonagall, she knows Lupin isn't registered 
and she doesn't mention Dumbledore in it. If he was born in 1917 (or 
even 5 years earlier or later, due to error in calculations) and he 
was a transfiguration teacher, he should appear on the list. To be a 
teacher he must register. Even if there is a few years of error in 
my calculations (we are assuming that Voldemort is "about" 70 years 
old in 1991). There is still a big enough gap, for 
Dumbledore's "birth" to be registered after 1900, making it this 
century.

Of course I am assuming that Dumbledore continues aging from what 
ever point in the past to 1991, which I think is a reasonable 
assumption. 

Then you have the issue of Dumbledore faking his birth. Wizard new 
borns are automatically registered (remember McGonagall looks in a 
list to see who will be every year new Hogwarts' students). But 
Dumbledore couldn't be registered. No matter to what year in the 
past he jumps to, he already is 77 years old. Someone, somewhere, 
would figure that out.

Let's say he manages to fake a birth record. In 1945 he is a 77 year 
old wizard, who should be 27 years old. It's kind of obvious that 
his appearance doesn't match his age, even though wizards age slower 
than muggles. If Dumbledore would have jumped further back than 
1945, let's say 1920, then the difference in his age would be even 
more obvious.. A 3 year-old in a body of a 77 year old.

Then he has to build up friendships and other wizard's trust over 
the years, including Nicolas Flamel. It would be difficult to do it 
without arousing suspicions about his age.

I know it sounds a bit confusing and it isn't conclusive, but I 
believe it is important.


But let's go to canon to talk about Dumbledore and Voldemort.

I remember this specific scene from Chamber of Secrets, when Tom 
Riddle (through the diary) is tricking Harry to believe that Hagrid 
opened the Chamber of Secrets 50 years ago.

CoS (US, paperback): Ch.13: The Very Secret Diary (page 245):
> ...They (Tom and Harry) didn't see another person until they
> reached the entrance hall, when a tall wizard with long, sweeping
> auburn hair and a beard called to Riddle from the marble staircase.
>
> "What are you doing, wandering around this late, Tom?
>
> Harry gaped at the wizard. He was none other than a fifty-year-
> younger Dumbledore.
>
> "I had to see the headmaster, sir," said Riddle.
>
> "Well, hurry off to bed," said Dumbledore, giving Riddle exactly
> the kind of penetrating stare Harry knew so well. "Best not to
> roam the corridors these days. Not since..."
>
> He sighed heavily, bade Riddle good night, and strode off...


I would believe that if Dumbledore wanted to do the right thing, he 
would at least try to put some sense in Tom Riddle before he becomes 
Voldemort. It's easier to prevent than to cure. 

If Dumbledore were Transformed!Voldemort, he would know what Riddle 
was about to do. I would think he would say or do something more 
than just tell Riddle to go to bed.

Riddle's hair was jet black (like Harry's hair) and Dumbledore's 
hair was auburn, before it went grey. You would think that after all 
that Voldemort's been through, it's a miracle he even has hair. ;-)

Another scene: Inside the chamber, Tom is telling Harry that 
Dumbledore suspected it him as the one who opened the Chamber.
CoS: Ch 17: The Heir of Slytherin. Page 312
> "I bet Dumbledore saw right through you," said Harry, his teeth
> gritted.
>
> "Well he certainly kept an annoyingly close watch on me after
> Hagrid was expelled, " said Riddle carelessly.

Why would Dumbledore do this if he already knew Riddle was guilty? 
Why wouldn't he do something more effective to stop Riddle? 

If Dumbledore didn't wish to interfere in Riddle-becoming-bad-guy-
Voldemort development then I see no point for him to go back in 
time. I wouldn't think that he wanted others to do in such a 
complicated and sacrificed way what he could have prevented earlier 
on. (Remember Voldemort killed a LOT of people). Dumbledore knows 
it's dangerous to meddle with the past, do you think he would try to 
do it?

Another thought:

During Voldemort's Reign of Terror, why would Dumbledore need spies? 
He new what Voldemort was doing. He had a Pensieve to put his 
memories in, in case he forgot. 

Maybe there is more canon that could be discussed, I think this is 
enough (for now, at least) to make you think about the "Dumbledore 
is Voldemort" idea.


Gregory Lynn wrote:
> And finally, doesn't it just seem like Dumbledore has seen it all
> before?

YES!! 

You could get that impression but I believe that in many occasions, 
we get the wrong impression. We would have to check all the books 
one case at a time, but I have a few cases in mind right now.

In PoA, when Harry and Hermione are using the TimeTurner to rescue 
Buckbeak, Dumbledore seemed to know that Harry was having trouble 
with BB and he stalls Macnair to give Harry enough time to disappear 
into the woods, before Macnair comes out Hagrid's house. He also 
makes Macnair look for BB in the sky, away from where Harry, 
Hermione and BB are hidden. I believe Dumbledore's spectacles are 
like Moody's magic eye. Through the spectacles, Dumbledore can see 
past solid walls, which is why he also knew Harry was trying to get 
in Dumbledore's office to talk to him when Snape was stalling him. 
Like Moody's Eye, the spectacles also let Dumbledore see through 
Invisibility cloaks. 

It seems that Dumbledore is well informed about most of what happens 
inside Hogwarts. It is highly possible that all (or most) of the 
portrait characters (Fat Lady, Sir Cadogan, Violet, etc) act as 
spies for him. Remember there are pictures hanging all over the 
castle and that these characters can move freely between them. 
Consider the house-elves, they are all over the castle cleaning, 
cooking, and whatever else. You usually don't notice them, but they 
pick up a lot of information: Moody summoned Dobby so he could hear 
Moody and McGonagall's conversation about gillyweed. The house-elves 
are loyal to their master (Dumbledore) so he probably gathers a lot 
of info from them too.

Then, many people have speculated that the ghosts and Peeves also 
tell Dumbledore things. Why do you think Peeves is around? Peeves 
causes a lot of trouble. If Lupin could stick chewing gum up 
Peeves's nose, what makes you think Dumbledore isn't capable of 
eradicating Peeves from Hogwarts? Peeves fears the Bloody Baron, so 
Peeves isn't invincible. But Peeves also respects Dumbledore and the 
teachers in general. He probably provides information to Dumbledore, 
maybe even not realizing it.

Dumbledore also has useful people outside Hogwarts, that acted as 
spies for him during Voldemort's reign of terror. Remember the old 
crowd.

Dumbledore is a good man who treats everyone with the same respect 
and as equals, regardless of their money, if they are pure blood or 
not, if they are muggles, wizards, house-elves, goblins, gnomes, 
half giants, etc. He earns other people's respect and trust, and 
they are willing to help him.

What do you think?

A last minute note:
Carlo wrote:
>I mean, the James!Remus theory has been introduced as *necessary* to
>solve a time loop issue. It is a bit weird, but one can see it could
>make sense.

Not exactly. Although the Patronus issue was what originated the 
idea, the James!Remos theory serves to explain certain characters 
reactions in the book, certain unexplained things and brings up the 
posibility of an interesting plot for the future books.

Enough!

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE!!!

Sharana...