A Sirius Defense, Round 2 (WAS a Sirius Offense)

[Penny & Bryce]

No: HPFGUIDX 35058

Hi --

judyserenity wrote:

> Penny  wrote:
>  >>> ... C'mon Snape-fans, you've got to concede that your man Snape
>  >>> really really lacks interpersonal skills hugely.<<<
> 
> And I replied:
>  >> Nope, not going to concede it. Remember, we are seeing things from
>  >> Harry's point of view, and Snape and Harry despise each other.... 
>  >> Snape knows how to interact with others when he feels like it. 
>  >> Remember how he was manipulating Fudge at the end of PoA?.
> 
> And Jo Serenadust replied:
>  > I think that what Snape is actually doing with Fudge would be
>  > classified as shamelessly sucking up, not actual interaction....<
> 
> Oh, Snape is *definitely* sucking up to Fudge in that scene! 
> Absolutely!  But, it takes good interpersonal skills to successfully
> suck-up, and Snape was doing great (Order of Merlin and all) until
> Sirius escaped and ruined it for him.

I think it might take a different degree of interpersonal skills to 
successfully suck-up to say... Dumbledore...or McGonagall ...than Fudge. 
  Simple *flattery* (NOT the same thing as interpersonal skills) would 
go a long way with Cornelius Fudge.  Sorry, Judy, but if that's the best 
example of Snape's interpersonal skills in action that you've got, 
well....  <g>  Seriously, I don't see that scene as any evidence that 
Snape is actually capable of a "give-and-take" *relationship* with 
another human being.  Sucking-up is, after all, a one-way form of 
interaction.  Absent Fudge's ability or inclination to give Snape 
something *more,* the "relationship" would end once the object of said 
sucking-up (the Order of Merlin in this case) was obtained.

I've argued the limitations of Harry's POV in other cases, so it would 
be intellectually dishonest of me to try & say that your argument about 
POV doesn't have merit.  <vbg>  However ... even though McGonagall is 
perceived by Harry as strict and not a person to be trifled with, he 
perceives well enough & early on that she is *fair* to the students 
under her charge.  He sees her strengths & her faults in other words. 
By contrast, he perceives Snape as someone not to be messed with as 
well....but the similarity with colleague McGonagall ends there. 
Reason?  Perhaps because Snape is patently *not* fair to the students 
under his charge.  My point is that while Harry's perceptions are 
definitely a factor in our understanding of Snape thus far, we see a 
multi-faceted McGonagall through his lens.  Why do we see the Snape that 
we see?  Harry seems to observe Snape quite alot, and yet .... we see no 
evidence whatsoever that Snape has *friendships* with the other 
professors, that he's capable of any real interaction with *anyone* in 
fact.


> 
> As far as I know, no one has theorized that there are different forms
> of PTSD, based on the type of experience that caused the trauma.  
> Actually, the theory is that there is a "generalized stress response"
> that can be triggered by many different kinds of trauma.  Witnessing
> violnce certainly can effect behavior, but I'd say it does so
> independently of PTSD.  As for Azkaban, JKR is very clear that it
> causes depression, not rage or uncontrollable aggression.

But, I don't believe that *Azkaban* is the triggering event for Sirius' 
PTSD.  I know Azkaban causes depression.  I don't argue that point. 
What I'm arguing is that Sirius was suffering PTSD *before* he landed up 
in Azkaban.  I think the trauma or "triggering event" for his PTSD 
happened on 31 Oct/1 Nov 1981 -- I think it was one of (or a combination 
of) the death of his closest friends, the Potters, the knowledge of his 
own inadvertent role in that occurrence &/or his confrontation with 
Pettigrew the following day.  So, escaping Azkaban does zip, zero, nada 
for his PTSD.  It's still there... in full-form... when the Shrieking 
Shack scene takes place.  Under my theory, we just didn't see him in any 
situations where the PTSD would show itself in GoF; I think he's still 
suffering from it & we'll see more of this in OOP.

  I'd say the
> research on Vietnam vets actually supports my view that PTSD causes
> aggression only in those already predisposed to it. The vets most
> likely to be violent when they come home are those who were
> excessively violent during the war (killing civilains for fun, for
> example), not the John McCain types who suffered long imprisonment
> under horrible conditions.

Actually my psychologist friend said that the Vietnam vet cases are hard 
to decipher fully because most of those vets are also engaging in 
substance abuse ... so it becomes difficult to pinpoint precisely what 
might be triggering spousal abuse & other violent behaviors.  I'll ask 
him about your above statement though.  What about vets who engaged in 
heavy military-related violence in the course of the war for example -- 
how would you class those guys (not the ones who engaged in senseless 
civilian-related violence ... which was, I believe, very limited but 
sensationalized)?

> 

> Sirius is a wonderful guy -- nay, a saint -- except when he's choking
> his godson, breaking a boy's leg, slashing everything in sight,
> feeding a classmate to a werewolf, or threatening to AK a former
> friend, which unfortunately is almost all we ever see him do.

Oh really?  That's all you've seen of Sirius?  I've seen a fair bit 
more.  How about:

1.  Risking his life to save Harry (that's the whole point of PoA IMHO)
2.  Writing a permission note so that Harry could join his classmates on 
outings to Hogsmeade ... and giving an owl to Ron (seems a fine way of 
"apologizing" for his broken leg, which Sirius was concerned about 
anyway though)
3. Writing concerned letters to his godson with parental, caring advice
4.  Leaving the safety of his tropical hiding place to live in a cave 
near Hogwarts, where he could be close to Harry
5.  Risking detection by having a fireside chat with Harry ("never mind 
me, how are you?" ... "Sirius looked at him, eyes full of concern..." 
"He had let Harry talk himself into silence without interruption...")
6.  Keeping in constant contact with Harry & Dumbledore (and possibly 
others like Lupin and the "old gang") ["nice try, Harry"]
7.  Demonstrating wisdom about *relationships* and humankind in his cave 
conversation with the Trio

"If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he 
treats his inferiors, not his equals" --  this is *hardly* the sort of 
observation that a Devil-may-care/self-centered/egotistical!Sirius would 
make.  This seems in direct contrast with the argument that Sirius is 
just a former "popular boy" who still doesn't take any care for his 
actions or who he might hurt.

He picks up on Ron's irritation ... "All right, I'll try you..." [i.e., 
sensitivity to others, open-minded]

"Should have spent a bit more time at home with his family, shouldn't 
he?  Ought to have left the office early once in a while ... got to know 
his own son."  -- Again, this is hardly the sort of observation one 
would expect from a self-centered Sirius.  This says loads to me about 
who Sirius is ...as well as who he might have been if the events of 
Halloween 1981 had never happened.  Values, principles ... he sounds to 
me as though he's got his head on straight where it counts.  :--)

He cautions them against sneaking out to see him ... but stresses that 
he wants them to keep in touch with him.

8.  The post-3rd Task scene in Dumbledore's office.  This speaks volumes 
for Sirius in my mind.  The description of how worried he'd been is 
...well.... intense IMO.  The fact that Dumbledore took care that he 
would be there for Harry ... that speaks volumes.  I can't imagine 
reading that scene & *not* thinking the world of Sirius.

IMHO, Sirius is "dead sexy."  But, he's dead sexy *because* of who he 
*is* ... not because he's good-looking.  In fact, his appearance in POA 
isn't exactly stellar from the descriptions ... and he's thin & living 
on rats during most of GoF.  No, I think the Sexy!Sirius image relates 
to Sirius as a caring person who's more than capable of engaging in & 
sustaining intense friendships & relationships with his fellow human 
beings.

Okay ... waiting for other Sirius fans to jump in & help me out here! 
Carole?  Monika?

Penny