Sadness in LoTR and HP

[lucky_kari]

No: HPFGUIDX 32946

Ahhh, my favourite of all topics. I am one of those people who needs 
a daily fix of Tolkien and tragedy (separately or in combination). 
The Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter aren't sad enough to fill my 
needs here. My usual pick is the Silmarillion (/me sees eyes roll. 
Trust me! It's a great book if you can tolerate mythology in its pure 
form.) 

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> I am pondering the question of the sadness in HP and LoTR.  There 
are 
> different kinds of sadness.  LoTR is terribly sad in the way it 
portrays the 
> ending of an era (I have a friend who hates The Last Battle for 
this 
> reason), 

I absolutely hated the Last Battle for exactly that reason! Now, I 
see it as one of the book's few saving graces. (Apologies to all C.S. 
Lewis fans in advance.)

>but it goes very light indeed on the killing of beloved characters. 
>   Nine set out and only one dies--not a bad record for a heroic 
quest.  The 
> death that touched me the most, by far, was Gollum's.  

Of course, Aragorn dies in the Appendixes, and THAT, imho, is 
heartbreaking AND depressing the way Arwen gives out on him at the 
last second. Is Peter Jackson going to include that in the movie? 

But I think you're correct. Given that he's destroying the entire 
world he created, I think he felt he could be somewhat lenient with 
the characters. Perhaps, HP will be the opposite? If you're 
destroying your characters, does the world gain leniency? I think so. 
Otherwise, the story is bleak and depressing, not something I think 
Rowling is aiming for. 

Main Characters' Deaths in HP vs. Lord of the Rings

Sauron (who cares?)
Denethor, Saruman, Wormtongue(chilling)
Smeagol (I think we can all agree very touching)
Gandalf (but he came back again)
Theoden, Boromir (died heroically)

Eowyn, Faramir, and Merry are pulled from the jaws of death just in 
time. I mean, I would have been heartbroken if Eowyn hadn't 
recovered, but the story didn't demand it. And Sam and Frodo are just 
ready to be killed off, when it seems JRRT relents and sends in the 
eagles, most beloved of birds. :p Bill the pony even shows up alive 
at the end, and don't the other ponies make it to Tom Bombadil, who 
sends them back to Bree? 

On the other hand, in Harry Potter, we have the deaths of
James and Lily Potter (off-screen, so not that emotional)
Cedric Diggory (absolutely horrible)
Frank Bryce (creepy, but also heroic)
Crouch Sr. (chilling) 
a sort of death with Crouch Jr. (sickening)
Quirrel (not really seen)

However, we have the same thing as with Tolkien. Any reason for 
preserving all those people in CoS through extremely complicated 
means, other than the old "Bill, you escaped all the way from Moria 
to Rivendell!" reason? Later, though, and particularily in the last 
two books, Rowling shows that things are getting more severe. I'm 
almost sick with anticipation. I suppose I have the blood lust, and 
like deaths, as long as they are not cheating deaths. Well, I suppose 
I better go get a copy of the Iceland Njal's saga, and read about 
people getting bumped off on every page. :p (But please, no killing 
of Ron. That would be depressing.)

>(This is ignoring the 
> fact that those who go to the Grey Havens do die in a sense, but I 
think 
> JRRT ignores it; he gives them a nice heaven to live in forever and 
ever.)  

I think you've misintrepreted Valinor. It does not give immortality 
to people, it's "hallowed" because of the immortal people that live 
there. (Read "Akallabeth": Tolkien's Atlantis story, tucked away at 
the end of the Silmarillion, a lot more readable than the rest of the 
book, if I say so myself, and giving nice background on who Isildur 
and Elendil were.) I don't have my worn copy of Tolkien's "Letters" 
at hand, but he writes to a fan that OF COURSE (everything to Tolkien 
was of course) Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, and Gimli will eventually die in 
Valinor. They are still mortals. While the immortal folk can, like 
Luthien, Elros, and Arwen, give up their special gift, Tolkien's 
mortals cannot choose not to die. What Frodo is given is a time to 
rest from suffering, to actually enjoy the rest of his life (which 
will be, I think, lengthened in Valinor), not an escape from death. 

> HP, on the other hand, is going to kill people we really love, of 
that I'm 
> certain.  However, even as it gets grimmer, it doesn't have that 
pervasive 
> sense of an end of something.  I very much doubt the wizarding 
world will 
> come to an end with Book 7.
> 
> Like Cindy, I like reading tragic stories--though I wouldn't 
characterize 
> LoTR as tragic, nor think HP will be--so I am not the best person 
to ask.  I 
> like PoA best largely because it's so angsty, and I like the fact 
that the 
> series is getting darker.  Watching the six o'clock news is 
depressing; 
> watching people with tremendous courage and integrity save our 
world from 
> the worst devastations seen on the six o'clock news is ultimately 
heartening 
> and inspiring, if sad.  Frodo's is not meaningless suffering; it is 
the 
> sacrifice made by a hero, and unlike many epic heroes, he at least 
gets a 
> reward of eternal life.  Harry will suffer and pay dearly for his 
triumph 
> (and I confess that I hope this proves true), but I think the end 
will be 
> hopeful.
> 
> Jenny's Raul said:
> 
> >"Stop!  I can't listen to this anymore."  He went on to
> >explain that he feels that Harry is persecuted by the Dursleys,
> >Voldemort...  He says that he doesn't see any happiness on Harry's
> >part.
> 
> Maybe he should hear the line where Harry thinks about running away 
before 
> the first task but realizes he'd rather be at Hogwarts facing a 
dragon than 
> back home.  Or maybe this would just depress him even more, that 
poor Harry 
> has *no* haven.  But to me it says that he loves Hogwarts and the 
wizarding 
> world so much that he'd rather live dangerously there than live a 
safe 
> Muggle life, *even if life were pleasant at the Dursleys*.  I 
wouldn't say 
> he is persecuted by Voldemort; Harry is a worthy opponent (as 
above, a hero 
> along epic lines), not a child being tormented.
> 
> When I meet HP characters in my daydreams (wipe that look off your 
face, 
> they're very chaste), I have a conversation in which I am totally 
thrilled 
> to learn that the world of the books is real, and that always 
brings the 
> fantasy up short and makes me think, if I could wish for these 
books to be 
> history instead of fiction, would I?  

Not I. I'd love Tolkien, on the other hand, to be real, b/c it's so 
non-threatening. (Death! Death! Death! in fiction, but I'm a real-
life coward!) But what fun for archaeologists!

Associated Press reporting that Dr. Smith believes he has found the 
remains of Minas Tirith, dating from a later period than the ancient 
epic "The Lord of the Rings", and will continue excavation through 
its lower layers, hoping to uncover the city Denethor II ruled, and 
perhaps at last remains of the city founded by the Numenoreans, 
fleeing the downfall of Numenor, also referred to in ancient myth as 
Atlantis. "This discovery is important because it will open up for us 
a whole new window on ancient Gondorian life, previously known only 
through a handful of sites, and of course, the documents collected by 
Professor J. Tolkien," said Dr. Smith. 

Harry Potter is too close to this world for me to want it to be true. 
No Associated Press reports of people being killed in the streets for 
me.  

Yours Truly,

Eileen