[HPforGrownups] Re: Re: Classical knowledge/ cultural education

[Jenett]

No: HPFGUIDX 33297

At 2:38 AM +0100 1/13/02, Ev vy wrote:
>It's long. Longer than I though it would be. And I hope it's more or less
>logical.
>
>---From: infobreakdotcom
>>  I think you missed the point.  If knowledge of how to calm a three
>>  headed dog is common knowledge to wizards, Fluffy wouldn't be
>>  protecting the stone from many wizards.  Even Ron would know
>>  unless he is a kinda stupid.  So all you say about the limitations
>>  of Harry's knowledge is only valid if the stone is being protected
>>  from Harry, muggleborns, and wizards who lack common
>>  knowledge.
>
>OK, I agree that it was not a well chosen example, or rather that my
>explanation to it was not well-applied. Acromantula would have been a
>better one. Fluffy may not be a part of common knowledge but may be a part
>of curriculum or knowledge of Greek wizards. Which may mean that Hagrid
>(expelled), children (not yet educated enough) may not know about its
>existence. But I'll elaborate on this later on in response to Eloise's
>post.
>
>---From: Eloise
><<<It is also,now that you point it out, quite possible that Latin is not a
>dead  language in the wizarding world: perhaps that's why we have no
>evidence of their learning French or German or any other language to
>communicate with wizards of other nationalities (but don't I remember
>?Bagman having communication problems with officials from another country
>at the World Cup?)>>>
>
>Yes, Bagman did have troubles communicating with Bulgarian wizards during
>the World Cup. It was the Bulgarian Minister of Magic (or other official)
>who had a good command of English. But Latin, not being a dead language,
>does not have to be a lingua franca. Even if it's used in spells and
>potions
>(and wherever else) does not mean that wizards are able to communicate
>using Latin.
>
><<<What I mean is, if those creatures which are to us myth, and those
>accounts  for which to us are mythical are in the wizarding world factual,
>or at least  based on fact, then why is there an assumed general ignorance
>over such an important mythical creature?  IMHO there should not be
>ignorance among wizards about something ( the power of music over Cerberus,
>who is clearly, if not Fluffy himself, at least his  forbear/ close enough
>relative for it to be a reasonable guess that music might work) which even
>I as a mere muggle know about. It implies that the texts of which we know,
>Virgil, Homer, etc and treat as myth/ legend but which in the wizarding
>world might even be treated as historical/pseudo-historical just aren't
>known.>>>
>
>Fluffy might not have been the best example. But, as I see it, this general
>ignorance may be in fact limited to tackling Fluffy and not his existence.
>Virgil and Homer were Muggles so their works may be simply disregarded
>in the wizarding world. If we assume that Muggle and wizarding worlds
>separated long time ago (and it's my view of this matter) then why should
>wizards pay heed to anything that was produced by Muggles? Moreover, if
>Muggles were writing about mythical creatures that existed in the wizarding
>world, even as not necessarily common ones but simply existing (or common
>in the past), it would have been even stronger reason to disregard their
>works, to ignore their existence. Or to laugh at them: "Oh, those poor
>Muggles, they think that three-headed dogs do no exist." Assuming that
>Muggles know about Fluffy/Cerberus (and what about tackling him? is
>anywhere in the Muggles writing mentioned how to tackle such a creature?)
>is somehow limited to educated and well-read Muggles. About ninety percent
>of Muggles don't have the faintest idea what a creature Cerberus was (sad
>truth, isn't it?). Another point: we don't know the exact curriculum,
>three-headed dogs may be a part of curriculum for older students, so Hagrid
>(expelled) and the Trio (first-years) may not know about his existence. Yet
>another point: Virgil and Homer may be a part of Muggle studies. Muggle
>studies is not an obligatory subject so children may be avoiding it (I
>don't see Slytherins willingly attending Muggle studies) as Muggles are
>considered in the wizarding world as less able (partially disabled by lack
>of magic) and thus their creations may be ignored. Of course there are
>wizards like Arthur Weasley who are fascinated with Muggle creations, but
>rather with mechanical devices that artistic creations. And even if Fluffy
>was a part of Muggle studies (as a beast in Muggle writings) learning about
>its existence wouldn't mean learning about tackling it, its not the scope
>of Muggle studies, but DADA. BTW, DADA may not be covering three-headed
>dogs as they may be rare enough (giant spiders do exist in a dangerous
>proximity of Hogwarts, their existence is acknowledged in general but their
>neither native nor believed to exist in Britain so they may not be the
>scope of DADA) or not native to Britain.
>
><<<Sticking with Fluffy, if he is 'just a three- headed dog. Maybe not the
>only one around',  (and doesn't Hagrid  ask, 'How many three-headed dogs do
>you see?) it makes it even harder for me to understand why no-one knows how
>to tackle him. I'm not surprised Harry doesn't know; it's Snape's ignorance
>and the assumption of general ignorance (why else use him as a deterrent?)
>that bothers me.>>>
>
>I've written above why I think that the wizards may be ignorant about
>Fluffy. Same applies to Snape. Somehow I don't see him taking Muggle
>studies. Besides, the general ignorance about Fluffy may apply only to
>British wizards, they seem to be preoccupied mostly with creatures native
>to Britain. Even 'Fabulous Beasts' may not be known as a whole to each
>wizard. Or even if they have read it, they would forget about creatures
>they don't have in their own country. Hagrid got Fluffy from a Greek
>chappie, so at least one person in Greece knows how to handle Fluffy. And
>I'd assume that Greek wizards are acquainted with the fact of its existence
>and the way to tackle it. Well, at least some of them, or those who are
>interested. Voldemort didn't know how to tackle Fluffy and neither did
>Quirrell, come to think of it. However, I can't see Tom Riddle attending
>Muggle studies and Quirrell seems to be incompetent as DADA teacher (and I
>wrote my musings on the scope of DADA above). And Voldie had more important
>things to do than to enhance his knowledge about fantastic beasts.
>
><<<Just because a creature is a 'real' in the wizarding world doesn't mean
>it is common knowledge and shouldn't be taught about. They learn about
>unicorns in Hagrid's class. But what about, for instance centaurs? Not
>creatures you're going to 'care' for, but isn't it important to learn about
>them? Thinking about this, there seems to be a place in the curriculum for
>a whole subject devoted to the study of other magical beings that don't
>require care and aren't covered under DADA: elves, goblins, fairies etc
>etc.>>>
>
>Centaurs may be a part of curriculum for older students, in any subject, I
>can't think of one which could cover them magical creatures, etc. Actually
>(this came to my mind second ago), centaurs may be a part of curriculum for
>Divination, they are creatures which look into the future, aren't they? And
>Hagrid spends a lot of time teaching (?!) about flobberworms, he seems not
>to have any curriculum. And do unicorns really need care? And still the
>students learn about them. Besides, we don't know the exact curriculum for
>all seven years. Elves (house-elves in particular) and goblins are so well
>established in the wizarding society that there's no need to teach about
>them. Or it's not written that students learn about them. Example: Harry
>refers to a person ordering raw liver (sorry, can't remember where or when)
>as a hag. But we don't see him learning (at school or anywhere else) about
>existence of hags. I'm not sure what creatures they are, but still.
>
><<<Others have noted a lack of reference to the lack of cultural/
>recreational
>pusuits taking place at Hogwarts. I see it as part of this. There seems to
>be a whole cultural dimension missing or at least not mentioned in the
>curriculum: literature, music, art, language, (other) sports, dance . The
>one thing they do have is History.  I suppose we could see a parallel with
>kids
>going off to a specialist music or stage school, but in the muggle world,
>there is generally an attempt to keep up a general education alongside the
>specialist one. I just can't see very rounded characters coming out if all
>they ever learn is magic.>>>
>
>If we assume a complete separation of the two worlds (and I think that it's
>indeed so and it's taken place long ago), then these cultural pursuits may
>be considered as Muggle and not worth learning. E.g. literature. Let's take
>literature in the Middle ages: adventures of knights fighting against
>mythical beasts ('Beowulf'), romances, quest stories, lives of saints (I
>know it's not all, but at 2.30 a.m. I can't think of more examples). If the
>separation of the worlds goes back in time as far as middle ages (or
>further), I do see wizards completely ignoring literature, or most of it as
>not entirely applicable in their world (Merlin is legendary in our world,
>but in the wizarding world he's a part of history, and what about Circe?
>She's not Medieval, but the reasons apply to her, IMHO). And contemporary
>wizards would ignore those writings for the same reason. We don't know if
>anything like a notion of being a saint exists in the wizarding world. I,
>as a Muggle, had to read excerpts from lives of saints, but it was abstract
>for me (not that I didn't enjoy reading them). I love 'Beowulf', but how
>many people in Poland know it (I'm Polish, BTW)? Not many, as it's a part
>of British culture. So all these writings may have for wizards the same
>value as for Muggles (even in Britain, how many people read 'Beowulf' or
>lives of saints and remember exactly what it was about; I don't remember a
>single thing from the lives of saints; I can't refer to 'Beowulf' in the
>same manner as I still remember it quite well), or even less. Muggles would
>read and forget, wizards wouldn't read at all, why bother? And maybe those
>talents that Muggles have for literature, music (wizards can dance - Yule
>ball) were somehow substituted with the talent for magic. Just a thought,
>not re-considered.
>
><<<I also find it strange that there is no evidence of Maths teaching. I
>wonder how they manage those astronomy charts? Would you need it for
>Arithmancy? (confess complete ignorance of subject)>>>
>
>OK, I see it as such. Arithmancy is not an obligatory subject. Among the
>Trio only Hermione took this subject and she as Muggle-born knows at least
>basics, however it's probable, that she knows much more than average Muggle
>pupil, even older than she is. So maybe only those kids are admitted to
>Arithmancy, who have basic knowledge of Maths. Or maybe many wizarding
>children (before they come to Hogwarts) attend Muggle schools. Children
>stemming from wizard-only families probably don't attend Muggle schools as
>their existence is not known in the Muggle world (at least I think so),
>half Muggles and Muggle-borns probably attend Muggle schools in majority.
>But I see another problem here. I don't know British law, but in Poland
>parents who don't send their children to school may get arrested, as
>learning is obligatory. OK, I've heard about home-teaching or rather
>self-education, but I'm not sure if it's acceptable in the UK or the USA.
>So, Hermione who's Muggle-born probably attended a Muggle school, we know
>that Justin Finch-Fletchley's name was down for Eton so he must have
>attended a Muggle school. But when those kids are accepted to Hogwarts,
>they disappear form the Muggle world. So what happens? Are there any legal
>consequences? Maybe Hogwarts does exist in the Muggle world as a normal
>school, somehow. And as the kids leave it at the age of eighteen then it's
>no Muggle authority's scope of interest to check on them, to check on their
>level of education?
>
><<<Eloise (Who did study Latin many moons ago and is rather peeved that her
>children don't have the opportunity)>>>
>
>Ev vy
>who had a chance to learn Latin but ignored the subject as it was
>extra-curricular and the teacher seemed not very sober most of the time
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>There's nothing level in our cursed natures
>But direct villainy.
>       William Shakespeare "Timon of Athens"
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>And therefore, since I cannot prove a lover,
>To entertain these fair well-spoken days,
>I am determined to prove a villain
>      William Shakespeare "Richard III"
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
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