Fictional vs factual people, translation and cultural issues

[Tabouli]

No: HPFGUIDX 34090

Gwen (on why smart Hermione could easily make bad relationship decisions):
> I have seen intelligent, attractive, powerful women sublimate themselves for
a petty, immature, jealous guy more times than I can count.<

Absolutely.  I've said it before, but I'll say it again: I've *never* understood why some people imagine that academic intelligence is insurance against choosing a disastrous romantic partner.  The former is of the intellectual, rational domain, and the latter of the emotional, irrational domain, and to a large degree these operate independently of each other!  It is entirely possible and even *common* for an intelligent woman to fall for and cling to someone disastrous... (one of the reasons I never have any trouble finding Scarlett's behaviour in Gone With The Wind entirely plausible and understandable).

Elkins
> Mahoney likes both Hagrid and Snape as characters; she likes Hagrid
as a person, while disliking Snape as a person. (...)

> > On the other hand, if I were to meet them both, in
> > reality, I would have a difficult time accepting
> > Hagrid's loveable qualities...while I would probably
> > cut Snape a huge break...

>Now *this* I find absolutely fascinating!  Mahoney, do you
think that you might be able to explain why you think that
Hagrid and Snape's positions reverse themselves, once you imagine 
yourself meeting them in person?<

Ooo, the ol' fictional/factual divide!  Hmm, let me compare my position with Mahoney's.  In print, Hagrid is the kind bumbler, heart in the right place (though, to quote Pratchett, the rest of him often isn't), caring towards the Trio, etc.etc.  Snape is the nasty teacher with mysterious past, cruel, vengeful, whose intentions are apparently good but whose behaviour often isn't.

As characters, I like 'em both.  I look forward to scenes where they appear.  Both are interesting and flawed in ways which drive the plot (if you think about it, both Hagrid and Snape have played vital roles in all of the books so far).  From a writer's craft perspective, I prefer Snape.  The Lovable Oaf is a bit of a literary cliche, whereas Snape is a more singular creation: bitter, complex, unpredictable.

As real people, I would *like* Hagrid, albeit in a mildly indulgent way, as someone manifestly well-meaning (if irresponsible and clumsy), and I doubt that I'd like Snape: he's just too nasty and spiteful for my tastes, I'd be nervous of him.  *However*, even though I wouldn't "like" Snape that much, I would *respect* him (much more than I would respect Hagrid), because he's so complex, fascinating, crafty and clever.  Not a man to trifle with.  In terms of personal identification, I don't identify with either, much.  I can see some aspects of both in myself, but not to the extent of identification.  I am, alas, one of the thundering hordes of women on this list who is *definitely* a Hermione... (though I'd flatter myself that I have a dash of Dumbledore as well).

Elkins:
> So what role might empathy and identification play in what we mean when we say that
we "like" a character?<

Identification breeds empathy, certainly.  When people denounce Hermione as a pompous, conceited show-off-know-it-all, I don't like it at all, because people did exactly that to me at her age for the same reasons, and they couldn't see the desperate need to prove myself and the insecurity that underlay it.  I feel I *understand* Hermione intimately, and get defensive if people misinterpret her in the way they misinterpreted me.  Nonetheless, for me it's not the same as "liking" a character.  It's the differences between how you feel about yourself and how you feel about other people - you can like or dislike what other people show you of themselves, but when it comes to yourself, you're on the other side of the social wall, you're the one liking or disliking, feeling the feelings and so on: coming up with a simple "like" or "dislike" for yourself is too much of a simplification.  I mean, you could say I "like" Hermione, but it's more complicated than that - it's more that I want her to be happy and get what she hopes for in life, independently of liking or disliking, because she's me!

Does that make sense?

jchutney:
> This reminds me of Henry James' famous edict about the relationship of 
plot to character (they are the same thing).  Minerva and Dumbledore 
are great but if everyone were like them, we'd have no story! LOL!  
It seems to me that the "whiter" or "blacker" a character the less 
interesting.  It's the "grey" like Sirius and Snape that provoke 
discussion (so, is he good OR bad?) and of course, "greys" keep 
readers guessing.  We have no idea what Snape will do next.  The one 
time we all went crazy for Dumbledore was in analyzing his "grey" 
moment (gleam of triumph).  Could Dumbledore actually be NOT all 
good?  Stop the presses!<

Hear hear.  This is the main reason why I separate "what I like in a character" and "what I like in a person"... I can't *stand* terminally nice pure noble upstanding brave flawless Good Guys in fiction.  So boring.  So predictable.  So unrealistic.  Give me some interesting flaws and weaknesses any day.  (Of course, in real life terms, the terminally nice are a rare and cherished breed - and make impeccable friends, excellent employees and parents, etc.)  Let Dumbledore have his vanity and his quirky sense of humour, I say.  No Potterverse Aslan-equivalent for me.  And there's nothing like a good villain in fiction (sadly, Voldemort is cutting it less and less for me).  Bring on the deliciously scheming nastiness...

Alexander:
> It has occurred to me today, when I finally finished an
English translation of my favourite Russian sci-fi book,
just how _different_ translation is from the original.<

Ahaaaa!  Thanks Alexander, this reminds me of a musing I've long intended to raise on this list... those of you who've read HP in other languages, what are the translations like?  How good a job did they do?  How did they translate the humour?  (e.g. the Uranus joke wouldn't translate, I imagine). Were there many cross-cultural gaps, like the oft-quoted French confusion at the English embarrassment about love and sex in HP?  Any other concepts and scenes which don't quite come off taken out of the English-speaking context?

I've noted quite a lot of trans-Atlantic cultural differences surfacing in our analysis of the series (notably emotional expressiveness (US) vs emotional control (UK)), and surely there must be a lot more when comparing the Anglophone cultures with the non-Anglophone cultures.  Alexander?  Susanna?  Katze?

Tabouli.


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