[HPforGrownups] Translation and Cultural Issues

[John Walton]

No: HPFGUIDX 34110

Alexander wrote:

> Greetings!
> 
> DISCLAIMER.
> Some parts of this post may be considered offensive to
> some Western readers. Sorry in advance, but that's the way
> it is. Any harm is unintentional. Consider yourself warned.

None taken from this transAtlantic person, who took one year of Russian at
university but got put off by the literary requirements after reading Anna
Karenina. (Aside: there is no coincidence that this novel has the initials
AK. Plot summary: Tolstoy whinges about the city/European influence and
praises the country/Russia. Some woman throws herself under a train, too.)
My own (ghastly) attempts at Russian below come with similar disclaimers to
Alexander's...

> Whenever mentioning "Russia" and "Russian" keep in mind
> that I mean in fact Eastern Slavic region of Russia, Belarus
> and Ukraine. I'm myself from Belarus, though tied culturally
> with Russia (completely Russian education and Russian being
> prime language).

Samuel Huntington (author of "Clash of Civilizations") would love that
observation.

> T> How good a job did they do?How did they translate the
> T> humour? (e.g. the Uranus joke wouldn't translate, I
> T> imagine).
> 
> What Uranus joke? I want to hear it, as well as the place
> in the text where it's located.

Okay. [Warning for the squeamish: skip this paragraph.] For this joke to
work you have to understand that the anus is part of the
bottom/butt/bum/arse. "Uranus" is pronounced very similarly to "Your anus".
So, "can I see Uranus, Lavender?" is *very* much a schoolboy joke.

> Question of school discipline has already been touched
> here in the newsgroup. Compared to russian schools Hogwarts
> is the Chaos itself.

Actually, compared to most schools in my experience, Hogwarts is rather
chaotic. Of course, you can compare that to the (IMO) discipline-less French
schools I've seen, where the students who want to learn sit at the front and
those who do not sit at the back and talk/play games/whatever.

> It also seems that Russians perceive Wizards judgement
> system much more lightheartedly than Westerners. At least it
> is much more just than judicial system in my country...

Perhaps this is Russia's history of authoritarianism coloring the viewpoint
of the Typical Russian Reader (referred to as TRR)? What I mean to say is
that TRR can personally compare Wizarding justice with a much more draconian
system than can the Typical Western Reader (TWR).
 
> I would expect Moody to be treated with much more kindness
> in Russia - he is fighting for the Idea (from the capital
> letter) - that's something to touch the heart of almost any
> Russian.
> (Those of you who think those days have passed by - forget
> about it. Russia is currently searching for the new Idea, as
> soon as she finds it, Lord save us all! ;)

Interesting point there.
 
> Name "Ivan" will be associated with Hollywood movies and
> Russian mafia for a Western reader, but it will associate
> with the most famous folklore hero for a Russian, the one
> that eventually wins not due to his courage, strength or
> intellect, but due to his kindness.
> The list can be continued...)

> About names in JKR books: two names for sure are Harry and
> Ron (Ronald). Needless to say, Ron doesn't hit a string in
> Russian heart at all. Harry associates with chess at best
> (Harry Kasparov being world chess champion). But surely this
> names convey some meaning to an English or American reader
> (even if this meaning is sub-conscious and not purposefully
> intended by the author). Even more, the names will convey
> entirely different meanings to English and American readers,
> being the result of much different upbringings and history.
> Any more ideas on this issue?

Alexander, would the TRR find names like Harry, Hermione, Ron, Neville, etc.
more unusual than the TWR? I'm thinking particularly because of the
restrictive Soviet "advice" on child-naming discouraging names with
religious connotations in favor of names like Nadezhda (Hope), Tatiana
(forgotten the translation...?strength?), Ivan (reason above), Viktor
(Victor), etc. I'm sure you can give us more examples of these.
 
> Yep. In Russia there is concept of "starosta", but it's
> not for whole House - there are no Houses in Russian
> schools, but instead each class of 20-30 pupils has it's own
> "starosta". His functions are pretty the same, though.
> The word was not translated but transliterated, though
> (that is, prefects remained prefects in Russian). Head Boy
> and Girl, however, don't exist in Russian schools at all
> (the closest analog would be "pioneer leader", but they
> disappeared together with pioneers and USSR...), and their
> direct translation would prove to sound real stupid (in
> Russian word "head" is not used to name a position of power
> for more than 100 years already) - something like "boy with
> the biggest head"... ;) So they were translated as "Major
> Prefects", and in fact there's no hint there are TWO of
> them (as they are not gender specific)... I only knew it for
> the first time when I got to the Lexicon and HP4GU that
> there are in fact TWO students of highest authority in
> Hogwarts.

Gosh, that's really interesting as a commentary on perception.
 
>> So, if a translator tries to find an equivalent that
>> works, he¹d have to fall back on something more obviously
>> rude like: Trelawney: ³Yes, my dear, that¹s Venus in a
>> very interesting position indeed: A sixty-nine degree
>> conjunction with Jupiter. Very good work, Lavender!²
>> Seamus: ³Oh, yeah, Venus in a sixty-nine position, can I
>> see that too, Lavender?²
> 
> Personally, I didn't understand your example at all,
> probably because I haven't seen original joke yet... :) And
> that considering the fact that I was school champion in
> dirty jokes... ;)

[Again, the squeamish should skip this paragraph] The sixty-nine position
involves two sexual partners orally fellating each other, one on top of the
other, head to groin.

> As fas as I have understood there's wordplay by Venus
> being simultaneously a planet and a... well... person. In
> Russian there's quite another wordplay, based on the fact
> that Russian name for Venus ("Venera") corresponds greatly
> to "veneric". So Seamus asks Lavender to show him her
> veneric data...

That's the general idea.

> Nah, there were no such attempts in Russian translations.
> All names were simply transliterated by standard translation
> rules. It led of course to many names being perceived
> differently by ear. And of course names don't "ring bells"
> in reader's mind, unless that reader has a good expertice of
> European culture.
> On the other hand, I have always disliked the idea of
> "talking" name, hence I like our translators approach... :)

I remember, back when I was doing Russian, how amused I was at the Russian
"translations" -- more like "transliterations" -- of character names from
the official translation.

Non-Russian speakers will not know that there is no aspirated H in Russian
(like the H in hotel, hedge, hey), and that H is therefore translated with a
hard G (as in guest, Gimli, Google) or with a KH (the unvoiced sound as in
German/Welsh "bach" or Scottish "loch"...not as in "church" or "character").
There is also no short A sound (as in "pat" or "mac"); this is usually
transliterated as a short E sound (as in "pet" or "heck"). Hence English
"hamburger" turns into "gemburger", and "Harry" to "Gerry". (Remember --
those Gs are "guh" sounds not "jeh" sounds.) So, IIRC,

Harry Potter -- Gerry Potter
Ron Weasley -- Ron Visli (pron. vee-zlee not vih-slih)

i.e. the official translater did not look for the Russian version of
"weasel" and play with that.

--John, Myezhdunarodny Chelovyek [of Mystery...help, Alexander, I've
forgotten how to say "of mystery"...]

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Remember: Socks then Shoes.

John Walton -- john at walton.vu
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