Diversity in Media and Literature (WAS No Subject)

[cindysphynx]

No: HPFGUIDX 40640

Rosie:

> Um.. what about Harry, coming from Surrey? Was it just him, and 
>the others had to go all the way to Kings Cross in order take a 4-
>hour train journey to the school that was right next door to their 
>houses? 

Surrey?  Before I read HP, I had never *heard* of Surrey.  Sorry.

I must admit to some surprise at your ire that U.S. readers might 
have some unfamiliarity with locales in the U.K.  

Why all the impatience about this?  One of the things I have 
observed about tourists who come to the U.S. from Europe is that 
they sometimes have no idea about the tremendous distance involved 
in getting from place to place as they travel around our country.  
So when they say they'd like to see Yellowstone, San Francisco, LA 
and San Diego in 4 days, I smile and politely set them straight.  I 
usually try not to attack them for failing to have the knowledge of 
my home country that I do.
 
Rosie:

>>>>>>>>> Um. I meant Kings Cross Station... and West Ham is a 
football team. All I meant by mentioning them was that, well, if 
London has so many places like Diagon/Knockturn Alley, Leaky 
Cauldron, Platform 9 3/4, one of the students supports a London 
football team, and Hogwarts is the only secondary school for 
Wizards/Witches in the UK....then it follows that London probably 
has a fairly large (relatively) magical population, and therefore 
young witches/wizards from London would go to Hogwarts. We also know 
that Harry came from Surrey, supporting the idea that they come from 
all over the UK.<<<<<<<<<<<

Sheez, I have to do all those mental gymnastics to work out that 
Hogwarts is *probably* diverse?  I'm supposed to know that West Ham 
is a London football team?  Wouldn't things be a bit more clear if 
the book simply said so?

Besides, I'm not sure your logic holds if we examine the canon basis 
for it.  We spend lots of time debating the size of the magical 
world and until Book 4, we didn't know one way or the other whether 
Hogwarts was the only school for wizards, IIRC.  I mean, if there is 
another competing magical school in London or a school abroad that 
students of color attend for some reason, those facts would destroy 
your whole analysis.  So how on earth am I supposed to connect the 
dots as you outline above and work out the probable racial diversity 
of Hogwarts?
 
Rosie:

>>>>>>>>> Yeh, but I wasn't talking about detailed knowledge of the 
equivalents of Hyson Green in Nottingham or the Moss Side in 
Manchester. I don't expect people who don't live here to know 
the "racial composition" of all the different areas of my home town. 
What I am talking about is the equivalent of thinking that all black 
people in America live in Harlem, and the rest of America is totally 
populated by white people wearing cowboy boots. >>>>>>>>>>

Well, actually, if you expect me to know that West Ham is a London 
football team, you really are expecting a level of knowledge that a 
person who does not know the UK well and doesn't know football at 
all is not likely to have.  

As for your example that someone from outside the US might think 
that all African Americans live in Harlem or that white people wear 
cowboy boots, well, as silly as this sounds, I wouldn't be 
completely surprised by it.  And I certainly wouldn't be offended by 
it.  I would imagine someone with very limited exposure to American 
media who had never been here might make such a mistake.  
Personally, I would be more than happy to clarify things for them 
without hostility, however.

Rosie:
 
> Besides which, if I read a book set in this Ward 3, I'd probably 
>go to a bit of effort to find out about the setting, like I do with 
>the other books I read. 

Really?  It seems to me that if the author is doing his or her job, 
I shouldn't have to research the setting like that.  

And the funny thing here is that we are not talking about the 
*actual* racial composition of Scotland or other parts of the UK.  
We're talking about a *fictional* school about *wizards!*  So even 
if I carefully and independently researched the demographics of the 
UK in conjunction with reading this piece of *children's fiction* 
while sitting on an *airplane,* I still couldn't rule out the 
possibility that no black students attend Hogwarts.  I could only 
guess, right?  Unless the book tells me so, of course.

Rosie (about Pavarti and Cho):
 
>>>>>> So diversity is just having black people? Hogwarts would be 
monocultural if it had Irish, Asian/Chinese and Asian/Indian 
students, but not monocultural if it just had one black person in a 
sea of pale faces?<<<<<<<<<<

Well, to be fair, I said nothing of the sort, and I think it is a 
gross distortion of what I said to suggest such a thing.

For the record, I said:

>"As far as Pavarti and Cho, I figured Cho was likely Asian. Pavarti 
>is a name I didn't recognize. I didn't believe either was 
>necessarily black, however."


To recap, the discussion here is whether Dean Thomas' race should 
have been specified in the U.S. edition of PS/SS.  One tangent of 
our discussion is whether U.S. readers would pick up on clues that 
Lee Jordan is black or clues that there are likely black students at 
Hogwarts.  Then you asked about Cho and Pavarti.  I tried to explain 
that I didn't see any reason to think that either was black, and I 
still don't.

But to be crystal clear so that there is absolutely no 
misunderstanding, Hogwarts has at least the following minority 
students:  Angelina, Cho, the Pavarti twins, Lee Jordan, Dean 
Thomas.  At least three are black.

Is that is sufficient to demonstrate that Hogwarts is diverse?  I 
think so.

So what is the problem again?  Because you really lost me there.  

Rosie:

 
> Would it cost that much to get up and find something out? 

Let me assure you.  If I thought a trip to the local library for 
some research would have given me a definitive answer on whether the 
non-existent and fictional Hogwarts School for Witchcraft and 
Wizardry does or does not have black students, I would have 
considered it.  JKR didn't put me to that effort because she and her 
publishers thoughtfully clarified the matter in PS/SS in the U.S. 
edition.

Thank goodness for that.  I suspect that those wizarding world 
demographic statistics might have been rather hard to track down.
;-)

Cindy (off to go consult the Lexicon about the precise location of 
Surrey)