re Translation WAS Re: Dumbledore's Motives

[bboy_mn]

No: HPFGUIDX 41000

Mod note:  This thread is drifting off-topic.  Posts not specifically discussing the meaning of canon character names should go to OT-Chatter, please

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "alhewison" <Ali at z...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bboy_mn" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pamscotland" <Pam at b...> wrote:
> > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bboy_mn" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> > > > <snip>
> > 
> > BBOY_MN Originally Said: 
> > > > > Sorry to be such a 
> > > > >jerk about this issue 
> > > > >but it really punches
> > > > >my buttons. I have never 
> > > > >been able to come up 
> > > > >with even the most
> > > > >obscure twisted path of 
> > > > >logic, that justifies 
> > > > >translating a person name.< < <
> >  
> > PAMSCOTLAND said:
> > > > It depends what you mean by 'translate'.  Most 
> >British English readers would probably not know that 
> >old English 'dumbledore' implied 'bumble bee' until 
> >someone told them or they read it  somewhere. I  would 
> >therefore understand a Spanish translation using 
> >an Old Spanish word for a bumble bee for Dumbledore's 
> >name. < <
> > 
> > BBOY_MN Replies: 
> > You still missed the point. Regardless of what 
> >Dumbldore means, it's his name. Names are never 
> >translated. Regardless of what the cultural  or 
> >historical origins are of the word 'Dumbledore'; 
> >it's still his  name. If most USA/UK/AUS English 
> >people don't know that 'dumbledore' translate to 
> >'bumble bee' in modern english, then what's the 
> >point of translating it in another language.
> > 
> ... ... SNIP  ... ...
> >  
> > Again, how could anyone dispute the tranlation of 
> >the story, and the modification of unique cultural 
> >references and many many other things that could 
> >justifiably be change, altered, or translated. But 
> that doesn't change the fact that no matter where 
> >the man goes, his name is still Albus Dumbledore.
> >  
> >  ...and yes, I am aware that I am still being a 
> > jerk about this, but peoples names are never translated.
> > 

ALLHEWISON REPLIED:  
> I disagree with you. Names are often translated. Whilst I call 
> Christopher Columbus (as in the one who reached America in 1492), 
> Christopher Columbus, I believe that is the Anglicised version. Don't 
> the Spanish call him something slightly different? Mark Anthony was 
> called Marcus Antonius by the Romans. I have seen French guide books 
> talking about Mary 1st of England, calling her "Marie". Whilst these 
> changes are just to make them sound "less foreign" to the reader, is 
> it really any different to changing the names of Dumbledore etc so 
> that their meaning is the same in different languages? 

BBOY AGAIN:
I think we are stuck in an endless loop here. I made my points clear;
at least I think I did. I'm not trying to stop further discussion, but
I think the final conclusion is that 'We agreee to disagree'.

*Christopher Columbus - I was going to us this as an example. Glad I
didn't, or I would have a bad case of foot-in-mouth disease.
*Marcus Antonius to Mark Anthony. 
*Marie of England to Mary of England

These are not translations and really make no attempt to alter the
meaning or significants of the names is any way. At best, I would
consider them modern adaptations of OLD historical names. Keep in mind
that Marcus Antonius lived in 40BC and he is named in a language that
is considered DEAD. Marie to Mary is virtually no change at all. It's
a massive far cry from changing Dumbledore to Silencio. Also, keep in
mind the Dumbledore lived in 1992, and unless JKR kills him off he is
still (fictionally) alive today. This is a modern person who proper
surname is still culturally, socially, and historically relavant to today.


"Dumbledore" 
> is perhaps not one I would have choosen to change, but "Remus Lupin", 
> his name was a dead give away (well once you knew he was a werewolf, 
> and providing you knew some Roman history, so ok, it wasn't really 
> that obvious).
> 
> I personally find it far harder to accept the US change of 
> Philosophers Stone to Sorcerers Stone, then I do an attempt to carry 
> the meaning of the name into a foreign language. Once reading the 
> Potterverse, it became obvious to me (and huge numbers of other fans) 
> that some of the names carried meaning. This understanding would be 
> lost to readers of a foreign translation, and they would miss one of 
> the rich layers of the Potterverse, if the names were not translated.
> 
> Ali

The very fact that JKR went through so much trouble, and showed such
vast intellect, and impressive base of knowledge and learning, only
stands to justify NOT changing these names. You mentioned that Remus
was historically/mythically linked to werewolves. That is an
application of JKR's deep historical knowledge. If you translate or
change that name, then the cultural/historical/mythilogical
significants that she struggled so hard to work into the story IS LOST. 

You have subtracted from this body of work by losing part of it. Now
if local languages change the name so that it still refers to their
local name for that person in history, then the significants of the
name is not lost, but if they try to do a literal translation, or
adapt it to something that sounds more familiar and easier in the
local language, then that bit of historical significants is completely
lost. 

In the example of Dumbledore, based on what I read, his name was
change to Professor Silencio. How does that in anyway prserve the
significants of that character? Dumbledore meaning bumblebee (so far
is nothing more than a curious fact). But changing it to something
that seems to have an implied significants like 'silence', add meaning
and significants that was never intended and doesn't belong there.

Another good example, Sirius is the name of the DOG star in the
constellation Alpha Canis Major (canis as in canine from the latin for
dog). If you translate that to something else, that sifnificants and
that association that JKR struggle to put there to enlighten our
uneducated minds is lost. Now if a foriegn language can change the
name to their equivalent name for that star and retain the association
with dog; I say great, but anything else steal a piece of the story. 

 If you write fiction, then you know coming up with names for your
characters is not as easy as it sound. Just the other day I was
looking throught a list of Russian, Irish, and Scottish authors and
poets hoping to come up with nice sounding names for some characters.
I and may other authors have actually gone through the phone book
looking for interesting sounding names. JKR when through a vast base
of knowledge and learning in so many different fields for names that
have significants. Translating them, even changing them without an
awareness of the significants of their use and purpose in the story,
reduces this work of art.

Let me close by saying, 'you don't paint a mustache on the Mona Lisa'.

BBOY_MN

Mod note:  This thread is drifting off-topic.  Posts not specifically discussing the meaning of canon character names should go to OT-Chatter, please