Snape is an HONEST nasty person

[bluesqueak]

No: HPFGUIDX 39286

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jenny_ravenclaw" <meboriqua at a...> wrote:
> 
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amanda Geist" <editor at t...> wrote:
> 
> I'm sitting here trying to think of one instance where he has lied, 
> and I'm pulling a blank (except possibly about believing the kids 
> were Confunded, which I don't think he did).> 
> 
> and bluesqueak responded:
>  
> > Oh, now if Snape *is* under cover, the Confunded episode is 
> completely brilliant. I mean, he can safely scream about expulsion 
> all he likes with Dumbledore and McGonagall - they know what he's   
> doing. 
> But Fudge? Fudge really does have the power to insist Harry be 
> expelled; or even taken to Azkaban 'for everyone's safety'. But 
> Fudge also knows that doing this to the famous Harry Potter is not 
> going to be popular.
>  
>  So what does Snape do? He FIRST plants in Fudge's head a 
> perfect 'get out' clause - the kids weren't responsible. They were 
> Confunded. (And yes, he's lying. He's doing a Slytherin 'bad means  
> are worth it for good enough ends') Then he tentatively walks a 
> very difficult tightrope between keeping in character in case 
> Harry has woken up and *not* convincing Fudge to expel anyone. Look 
> how many pauses are written for Snape's lines here.>
> 
Jenny from Ravenclaw replies: 

> Okay, I'm a bit confused here by what you said.  If Snape is lying 
> about the Trio being under a Confundus Spell, then really, he is 
> helping them by excusing their behavior (hmmm, wonder why he didn't 
> say they were under the Imperius?). 

Possibly because Imperius is an Unforgivable? Snape might *say* he'll 
give Black to the Dementors, but what he actually *does* is bring him 
back safely to Hogwarts. He gives his reasons for not believing a 
word of Black's story, but he also gives Black the chance to tell his 
own side of it to Dumbledore. Confundus, from that point of view, is 
a 'safe' lie. It leaves Black with a chance. It does not risk dumping 
him with a life sentence in Azkaban even if he turns out to be 
innocent.

> Is that what you are saying, 
> bluesqueak?  Because if you are, then we are in agreement.  
> 

I think we are. I think Snape does lie, mostly by the 'Dumbledore' 
method of creative truth telling, but always with a good end in view. 
Here he is trying to help the Trio whilst remaining in his 'I hate 
Harry' character and whilst giving his viewpoint against Black.

> I most definitely agree with Amanda here (we 'geists usually stick 
> together, except when it comes to House Elves :-P).  I would find 
> it hard to believe and even harder to accept if Snape turns out to 
> be a bad guy after all.  JKR has made him deliberately vague and 
> confusing and quite unlikeable, which is exactly what makes him 
> such a brilliant character. He is very real.  Don't we all know 
> people who aren't very nice but aren't bad, either?  

<Snip>

Likewise; I love the portrayal of Snape because it's so rare in 
fiction marketed for children that we get a good-but-nasty person. I 
would hate it if he turns out to be evil in the end; such a cop-out. 
However, I wouldn't be remotely surprised if at one point we end up 
believing that Snape has betrayed Harry because he hates him so much -
 and then find out it's all an essential part of the 'defeat 
Voldemort' plan.

> One last comment here: Fudge.  We all know Fudge would never 
> support expelling Harry,

Fudge: "...the boy can talk to snakes, Dumbledore, and you still 
think he's trustworthy?" (GoF UK hardback, p. 613)

> but I don't think he's the one who has the power to 
> do so anyway.  Dumbledore is the the Headmaster of Hogwarts and 
> Dumbledore alone is the one who has the power to keep or expell 
> Harry or any other student.  Fudge may try to put pressure on 
> Dumbeldore from time to time, but Fudge has nothing on Dumbledore, 
> IMO.

Fudge: quote from GoF (UK hardback, p. 615)
"Now see here, Dumbledore, I've given you free rein always. I've had 
a lot of respect for you. I might not have agreed with some of your 
decisions, but I've kept quiet. There aren't many who'd have let you 
hire werewolves, or keep Hagrid, or decide what to teach your 
students, without reference to the Ministry." 

Which suggests that while Hogwarts has an independently appointed 
Headmaster (CoS) it is ultimately under control of the Ministry; 
Fudge merely gives Dumbledore a free hand as long as the school runs 
well. Tricky arguing from RL, but this would agree with an 
English/Welsh State School model, where the local/national government 
has the power to insist that a pupil be expelled or re-instated, or 
to decide what pupils are taught,  whatever the Headteacher's wishes.

In CoS, Dumbledore says: "Yet again, Cornelius, I tell you that 
taking Hagrid away will not help in the slightest." (CoS UK 
paperback, p. 193). But Fudge still  has the power to take Hagrid off 
to Azkaban. And does.

> 
Pip