TBAY: MATCHINGARMCHAIR

[elfundeb at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 39391

Debbie is lying on the deck of the Parallel Universe Fourth Man hovercraft, 
lost in reveries which were awakened without warning when she began to play 
the Beatles' White Album backwards.  Her youth has come back all too clearly 
now, days when there was no Potterverse to analyze, days spent trying to play 
records backwards and scrutinizing album covers for tiny clues . . . he's 
barefoot, like a corpse . . . look at the license plate -- 27IF! -- he would 
have been 27 now . . .

The reverie is suddenly interrupted by Charis Julia, who, with 

one well-aimed kick, sends the CD player whizzing through the 
air, till, Splash! It hits the waves of Theory Bay with an almighty 
upheaval of water. 

Upon hitting the Bay, the screech of the CD player abruptly ceases, replaced 
by the clear voice of John Lennon saying "Paul is dead.  Miss him." growing 
ever softer as the CD player sinks through the depths until

Silence settles once more on the Bay. Oh, phew.

But Charis breaks the silence:

"What makes us so sure, Debbie, that Neville at the Gryffindor 
celebration party is really sitting there thinking "Hang on. Better 
be sure of exactly what I'm going to say before I open my mouth. 
Right. First thing's first. Now, I hear the Egg right there in front 
of me. Lets just imagine the sound of my parents being tortured and 
then compare the results."

Debbie stares at Charis.  Did Charis really think she meant that?  Who can 
think clearly with all that screeching going on?  Not Debbie.  And certainly 
not Neville. 

Charis whips out a book and flips through the pages. "Where is it. . . where 
is 
it. . . Ah! Right! There, read that!"  Charis hands the book 
over indicting a small paragraph quoting a 
survivor of the Great War. Debbie flicks through the passage:

"The noise of a slamming gate, a flaring gaslight, a train whistle, 
the barking of a dog or some boyish prank is enough to set off my 
trembling. Or, sometimes the trembling comes without a reason. <snip> 
All of a sudden I felt my strength was leaving me. I stopped talking. 
I felt a shiver in my back, I felt my cheeks going hollow. I began to 
stare and the trembling came back on again."

As Debbie hands back the book Charis smiles proudly out at 
her. "There. See? Now surely you're not going to argue that a train 
whistle sounds more like a Five-Nine blasting into the ground ahead 
than an indefinable wail does to the sound of Crucioed wizards, are 
you?"

"Of course not.  But . . ."

"Neville," Charis concludes happily closing the book with a 
snap, "has Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder! He's Spell-Shocked."

Debbie thinks carefully about this.  "No, I don't think so.  A sound may 
trigger the onset of PTSD symptoms - one that is associated with the event.  
But the triggering event brings back the memory of the event itself.  And the 
context of the egg scene does not, IMO, support that conclusion. 

"Everyone hears the egg's screeching.  Nobody's ever heard anything like it 
before, so they begin guessing.  Seamus says that it "sounded like a 
banshee."  Neville next offers, "It was someone being tortured!"  Like 
Seamus, he's just trying to guess what the sound of the egg was.  Now Neville 
may have jumped to conclusions here, but that doesn't necessarily mean that 
he remembers the Cruciatus Curse.  He may just have the idea of that curse 
coursing through his brain, not as a result of a long-ago Memory Potion, but 
because Monsieur Crouch showed him what it's like.  That class opened up all 
sorts of new possibilities for him.  Horrifying visions to go along with that 
story he's heard.  Visions of how his catatonic/wailing parents might have 
looked and felt that evening.  But Moody's class didn't provide a sound bite. 
 Neville hears Seamus conclude it sounds like the thing he fears most.  So 
Neville's mind jumps to the thing he now fears most -- the curse that lost 
him his parents and concludes that's what the egg sounds like."  

Charis opens her mouth to object, but Debbie waves her off.  "I know, you're 
going to say that we know from the boggart scene that Neville's greatest fear 
is Snape.  But that was only his greatest fear at that time.  Harry's 
greatest desire changes from December to June in PS/SS; so there's no reason 
to think Neville's greatest fear wouldn't change either.  In fact, it's 
natural as we age and gain experience that our desires and our fears will 
change.  Right?  Right.  And remember, Neville faced the boggart the same day 
Snape threatened to poison Trevor with Neville's potion.  Stands to reason, 
especially with all the browbeating he gets from Gran about upholding the 
family honor, that he'd fear Cruciatus worse than Snape once he saw how 
horrible it was. 

"What?  You think Snape was there that night, killing the Jobberknoll?  But 
even if that's true, it would only mean he remembers Snape being present the 
night he lost his parents.  That's traumatic enough.  It doesn't mean he 
actually saw the torture.  Or, if he did, he was already Memory Charmed 
before Snape arrived to kill the Jabberknoll.  Either way, no PTSD."

Charis opens her mouth to object that she doesn't believe in the Memory Charm 
theory, but Debbie interrupts, saying, "What's your next can(n)on?"  To which 
Charis responds:

Let's take a look at Neville's 
symptoms, shall we? He goes * very white* and spills sausages all 
over the floor. - obviously all that trembling you realise. 

"But he recovers very quickly from that episode.  Yes, he turned white and 
spilled some sausage (now, is it really that unusual for Nervous Neville to 
spill something? )  But just a minute later (time enough for George to speak 
a few sentences) he's busy eating custard creams.  He handles this pretty 
well, as you admit yourself, Charis."

Charis nods but plows doggedly forward:

And previously, after Moody's Unforgivable lesson Neville is * staring* at 
the wall opposite him. He's hardly able to talk. An unnaturally high 
voice. He's getting confused. He has a wide-eyed, horrified look.

"Well, let's compare Neville's reaction in Crouch/Moody's class with his 
reaction to the egg.  Here's what happened in class:  'At once, the spider's 
legs bent in upon its body; it rolled over and began to twitch horribly, 
rocking from side to side.  No sound came from it, but Harry was sure that if 
it could have given voice, it would have been screaming.  Moody did not 
remove his wand, and the spider started to shudder and jerk more violently . 
. . . Neville's hands were clenched upon the desk in front of him, his 
knuckles white, his eyes wide and horrified.'

"Neville was *horrified.*  Horrified as if he had never imagined it could be 
so horrible.  And after class was over -- quite some time later since 
Cruciatus was followed by the Adavra Kedavra demonstration and a lecture on 
the Unforgivables -- Neville was staring at that wall, still "with the same 
horrified, wide-eyed look he had worn when Moody had demonstrated the 
Cruciatus Curse."  Crouch's little demonstration was a terrifying revelation 
for Neville, and  nearly an hour later (I'm guessing class is at least an 
hour) he still can't think straight, and he's still speaking nonsense in that 
unnaturally high voice.

That tells me that there's something very different between these two 
episodes.  It tells me Neville saw something new and horrifying in 
Crouch/Moody's class.  Something he had never seen before, or can't remember. 
 For the first time, Neville was able to see and *feel* the trauma that 
altered his life.  And it shook him up, badly.  So badly that he cried 
himself out in his room.  So badly that he's noticeably not normal even after 
the dinner hour.  So badly he stays awake long into the night. And ever since 
then, he's been spending a lot of time thinking about this new image.  

See, ever since Crouch's demonstration, he's been haunted by the vision of 
that twitching spider.  He's got Cruciatus on the brain, so when he hears the 
egg it's the first thing that comes to mind and he just blurts it out.  But 
some time has elapsed since Crouch's little show, and he's able to recover 
much more quickly this time, especially when he realizes how it'll remind 
everyone of his earlier reaction."

Still undaunted by Debbie's can(n)on, Charis brings on her next argument, a 
comparison with Harry:

Harry does get a 
bit lamentful over Lily and James's demise once in a while and he 
might blow up an aunt or two when he's feeling really rough, but when 
Moody mentions AK what he feels mostly is, well, * informed*. And he 
certainly doesn't clutch at the desk till his knuckles go white, his 
eyes wide--open in terror.

"But Harry's already been dealing with those memories because of his 
experience with the Dementors.  He's seen the green flash.  He remembered 
that bit even before the Dementors.  Harry has access to his memories.  
Besides, Harry's a controlled person.  He had to learn control with the 
Dursleys.  On the other hand, the fact that Neville has an extreme reaction 
in Crouch's class but not on the train or when he hears the egg, indicates 
that he has not been operating with potion-enhanced memories.  Rather, it 
suggests he does not have those memories, or does not have access to them."

On the other hand the Dementors, as you admit Debbie, had a profound 
influence on Harry. That's because this is the first time he's had to 
face what Cindy would call the Dolby Digital, mega-screen, extra 
special effects version of his parents last moments. But as Eileen 
points out Neville is an old hand at this game.

"No, he's not, not in my book.  If he was, the Crucio'd spider would have 
affected him less, or the Dementor would have affected him more like it 
affected Harry.  The Dementor would certainly have triggered his PTSD - isn't 
the alpha and omega of the Dementors' existence to revive traumatic memories? 
 But it didn't at all.  If you look at Neville's reaction to the Dementors, 
you'll notice that he was pale and has a higher voice than usual.  But he 
wasn't shaking (Ron's comment seems to indicate that only Ginny shook).  And 
he wasn't babbling nonsense like he did after Crouch's demonstration.  No, he 
gave a cogent explanation of his reaction to the Dementor.  I have to 
conclude that the Dementor didn't give him that Dolby Digital version at all. 
 It took Crouch to do that for him.  And why not?  Because he didn't get a 
Memory Potion.  He got a Memory Charm.  And the Dementor may have made a 
little headway in dislodging those memories from their airtight compartment 
in Neville's brain.  But it didn't make enough headway, did it? Because 
Neville wasn't unconscious.  He wasn't even shaking.  But between the 
Dementor and Crouch/Moody's demonstration and the sound of the egg, Neville's 
subconscious magic may be beginning to pick away at the shield covering his 
memories."

Now it is Charis who stares blankly.   She starts to speak, slowly at first, 
then gaining speed rapidly.  "I do believe in Memory Potions.  I do I do I do 
I do I do! because they * 
are* Can(n)on."

"I'll tell you a secret, Charis.  I believe in Memory Potions, too (though 
I'm still undecided on whether their effect is to enhance or suppress).  I 
believe in the Jobberknoll.  They *are* canon.  I even believe Frank 
Longbottom could have had one at home and that Snape could have shown up and 
killed it.  But I somehow keep coming back to the original issue.  I just 
can't buy that Neville was given a Memory Potion.  Erm, can you wait here a 
moment?  I want to check something."

Debbie goes below deck to the cabin, where she is not seen for days.  When 
she finally emerges, lugging all six volumes of canon, Charis is still on 
deck mumbling to herself, "I do I do I do!" and eating a canary cream.  

Debbie approaches.  "Charis?"  Charis jumps out of her deck chair, then looks 
hard at Debbie, who says, "I've gone back through the canon looking at 
descriptions of Neville and I just can't read into them any suggestion that 
he's haunted by Cruciatus memories at any time until Crouch puts on his 
little performance.  Rather, he acts like someone whose memory is 
"permanently damaged" by a too powerful memory charm.  He can't remember the 
passwords, can't remember where the trick step is, can't remember the 
potion-brewing instructions, can't remember to keep track of Trevor.  He's 
got a memory like Bertha's, 'like a leaky cauldron.'

"He's a nervous wreck alright.  Just look at the flying lesson.  But it's not 
PTSD.  The only things that appear to haunt him are (1) he might not be 
magical enough to uphold the family honor, something Evil!Gran never ceases 
to remind him of (or else he knows he's plenty magical but doesn't want a 
career as an Auror), and (2) Snape's wrath.  If he was haunted by Cruciatus, 
his boggart would not have looked like Snape. (Or do you think Snape did the 
torturing? <shudder> )  I don't think you can just fool the boggart like 
that.  All these terror-stricken looks don't begin until Crouch comes along 
and shows him what somebody being tortured really looks like.  The Dementor, 
which should have been a most effective trigger for PTSD, didn't do the trick.

"And if Neville doesn't have a visual image of his parents' torture until 
Crouch shows him, how can he be suffering the effects of a Memory Potion?  
Wasn't the supposed purpose of the potion to enable Neville to tell what 
happened and who did it?  Aside from the biggest problem, that I can't 
believe Neville was old enough to provide meaningful information (unless he 
was fingering someone he already knew, like Evil!Gran or Evil!Uncle Algie or 
an Evil! friend of Frank's), there's no evidence that he had any visual 
memory, or at least anything he could access before Crouch came along.  I 
think the evidence shows that the only visual he has is the one Crouch 
provides for him, and that he still doesn't hear his parents screaming.

'I'm only too willing to concede that if Neville does remember his parents' 
torture, whether or not as a result of a Memory Potion, his reaction to the 
egg would look like PTSD.  But I thought the MATCHING ARMCHAIR was premised 
on the notion that Neville is forgetful because he is constantly reliving 
these events.  If this memory is so omnipresent as to make him forget so 
much, then he doesn't need a triggering event to bring up the memory.  Right?"

Charis still looks unconvinced.  "Well, then, let's ask Cindy.  She's the 
Memory Potion expert, after all."

At that, Debbie grabs her Omnioculars and gazes over to the Big Bang 
Destroyer itself, looking for Captain Cindy.  But, alas, she isn't even on 
deck.  Her usual post is occupied by her new co-captain Humpty Dumpty, who is 
perched precariously on the deck rail.  Debbie sighs.  Once, she thought her 
Memory Charm theories might have earned her a ticket to the destroyer, but 
that was when Cindy was in charge.  Debbie collects her thoughts quickly, as 
she spies the MATCHINGARMCHAIR paddleboat, bearing Cindy and Eileen, 
approaching the hovercraft.  Charis Julia gives a joyous shout and 
immediately dives over the rail, swimming swiftly to the floating armchair.

"Well, Cindy," Debbie asks.  "What do you think?"

*Why* does Neville liken the Egg's wail to torture?  
Is he thinking of his parents' tortured screams, the ones he hears 
because of the Memory Potion?  Is he hearing the tortured sound of 
Snape slowly twisting the life from Neville's beloved and helpless 
blue bird?  

Well, maybe.  But there are two other possibilities to explain 
Neville's reaction.  

The first option is that Neville reacts the way he does because of 
those dreaded visits to his parents at St. Mungos.  What do his 
parents likely *do* during those visits?  Well, that depends on 
whether you want a Bang or not.

If you want a Bang (as I surely do), then they *wail*, that's what 
they do! 

Debbie nods.  "See?  Even Cindy doesn't *really* buy that Memory Potion 
thing!  It was just her bit of fun!"

Cindy nods.

"So, Eileen and Charis Julia, we can have our MATCHINGARMCHAIR with 
Jobberknoll plus Wailing Insane Parents Variant.  Or we can go with 
MATCHINGARMCHAIR with Jobberknoll plus Subjective Egg Variant with 
optional Wailing Insane Parents.  Your choice."

<Whereupon Charis climbs aboard the paddleboat, soaking Cindy.>

And Debbie, we'd *love* to have you on board, so will you convert?"  

Debbie contemplates for a moment.  After her long and passionate defense of 
the Memory Charm, which has driven virtually everyone else from Theory Bay, 
wouldn't it be intellectually dishonest to join her opponents?  Yes . . . but 
it might be fun.  It's pretty lonely defending the Memory Charm, now that 
Elkins is gone.  So Debbie tries another compromise.

"How about the Jobberknoll with Wailing Insane Parents Variant?  With Memory 
Charm?  Or the Wailing Insane Parents with Memory Potion and Memory Charm?  
No?  Well then, perhaps I can just pull up on my own Memory Charm paddleboat, 
anchor it to yours, and share some refreshments while we spin out new 
Jobberknoll theories together.  At least until your Big Bang co-captain 
topples over and you have to go back.  I'll even send Elkins an owl, asking 
her to join me and even bring Sneaky!Neville with her.  How about it?"

*************

Debbie, who realizes now that many listmembers are too young to remember when 
Paul McCartney was widely rumored to be Dead!Dead!Dead!  (It was even rumored 
to be quite Bangy)

> For an explanation of the acronyms and theories in this post, visit
> Hypothetic Alley at 
> 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin20Files/hypotheticalley

.htm 
> 
> and Inish Alley at 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?
> method=reportRows&tbl=13





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