Comforting!Ron; Sensitive!Harry; Hermione's Age (does it matter); and 1980? And Aha!

[Penny Linsenmayer]

No: HPFGUIDX 39529

Hi --

Okay, I'm a few days late with this one .... but better late than never perhaps:

COMFORTING!RON -

CharisJulia said originally:

<<<<I think that the most comforting thing about Ron is that he takes 
people as they come. He accepts them for what they are, no questions 
asked. 

GoF, "Beaubatons and Durmstrang": "That was a lie, * Harry,*" said 
Hermione sharply over breakfst, when he told her and Ron what he had 
done "You * didn't* imagine you scar hurting and you know it."

"So what?" said Harry. "He's not going back to Azkaban because of me."

"Drop it," said Ron sharply to Hermione.


Hermione's right here of course. Harry * did* lie. But that's not 
what he wants to hear. Ron isn't handing out moral lectures. He's 
simply accepting Harry's decision and the reasons behind it. Should 
he have done so? Well, that's another story. . . But his attitude is 
the most * comforting* if not anything else.>>>>

I responded:

<<<<Second, I really don't think that particular incident is evidence 
that Ron accepts people for "who they are."  It is evidence that he 
was perceptive enough to know that Harry was more concerned about 
Sirius' safety than he was about his scar hurting.  I think this is 
evidence that Hermione was most worried about *Harry* and not so much 
about what might or might not happen to Sirius.  She was so worried 
about Harry's safety that she neglected to pick up on what was more 
important to Harry at that moment.  So, this is good evidence that 
Hermione is not perfect in fact.  :::smiles at Pippin:::  But, I 
don't think it makes your point really, Charis Julia.>>>>>>>>>

CharisJulia continued with:

<<<<OK, so forget about accepting people. What I meant is that Ron 
doesn't set moral standards for his friends to live up to. This scene 
does illustrate this point. Ron isn't thinking about truth--telling 
here. He's thinking about Harry. Hermione's first reaction is to 
concentrate on the lie, not Harry's feelings. So, I'm really sorry, 
Penny, but I'm afraid that how this proves that she's worried about 
Harry more than Sirius is not evident to me. Why would Harry get into 
trouble here for lying? The worst thing that could happen to him 
would be a scold from Sirius. And the scene tells me nothing 
whatsoever about how she feels about the prospect of Sirius's arrest, 
it only evinces her aversion for lying. Which is of course a * good* 
thing. But not what Harry wants to hear and therefore not 
exceptionally comforting for him. Ron's attitude is comforting OTOH. 
He picks up on what his friend needs right then at once, realises 
that this is a no win situation and doesn't begin to lecture Harry 
about the way he chose to handle it.>>>>>>>>>>

Me again:

We're still at cross-purposes I'm afraid.  You have a valid interpretation I think.  But, I actually disagree that Hermione's focus is on the lie that Harry told.  I think what she means is: "Your scar *did* hurt Harry and maybe you *need* Sirius, so it was foolish to lie & say you'd been wrong about your scar.  What if Sirius changes his mind?"  In other words, I interpret this scene as saying that Hermione was worried about Harry's safety & actually quite happy that Sirius was "flying north."  She didn't focus on what might happen to him (Sirius) by doing so, which is what Harry's concern was.  So, I think we're just interpreting Hermione's *purpose* differently, and I'd say that both interpretations are equally valid really.  I've not ever seen it the way you did, so that was enlightening.  Mind you, I still prefer my interpretation of course.  <g>

I agree with Raven, who said:

<<<She's worried that Sirius will *believe* Harry and not
do anything about Harry's scar problem. Or at least,
that's a possible reading of it. She does seem to be
morally indignant here. But she may see inaction on
Sirius's part (though, really, what does she expect
him to do?) as a possible negative result of the lie.>>>>


SENSITIVE!HARRY:

CharisJulia said:

<<<<<<<As far as I can see for the most part Harry tends to be rather 
more than less unaware of others' feelings. His insensitivity in fact 
often reaches the point of downright rudeness. He's definitely abrupt 
more than once to Ginny and both of the Creeveys not to mention Dobby 
and Moaning Myrtle. I know he doesn't like being hero-worshipped but 
I'm sure it does nothing for Colin's confidence to be cold-shouldered 
and brushed off all the time. I love Harry, but he's famous and he's 
just got to learn to deal with that. And you know that little saying 
of Sirius's about men and their inferiors?>>>>>>

She then responded with:

<<<What I did mean however is that Harry is the one in the position of 
power here. It's the Creeveys, Ginny and Dobby who are hero-
worshipping * him*. It's only common courtesy I'd say to give back a 
proper response. You know, the kind where one can actually make out 
the words and not just a jumble of mumblings and the kind where one 
can see the speaker's face instead of his back fleeing.>>>>

Actually, I'd say that Harry is quite courteous to the Creeveys, all things considered, and is unfailingly courteous to Ginny.  I'm truly surprised the H/G shippers haven't ripped your argument to shreds.  <g>  

As canon support, I'd cite:

** "Ginny seemed very prone to knocking things over whenever Harry entered a room. .... Pretending he hadn't noticed this, Harry sat down and ...." (CoS, Ch 4)

** "Oh, are you starting at Hogwarts this year?" Harry asked Ginny. (CoS, Ch 4)

** Harry does refuse to sign Colin's photo of him ... and he checks to be sure noone can overhear them before he does so.  Is this because if there were others around he'd be nicer?  In any case, I interpret this as evidence that Harry is just trying to discourage Colin's hero-worship and to sign the photo would be encouraging him.  (CoS, Ch 7)  

** Harry's not at all rude to Ginny about the valentine (whether she sent it or not is open to debate of course)

** Harry and Ron's conversation with Ginny (CoS, Ch 16) -- I don't see any evidence of rudeness or shortness with her

** In the Chamber, Harry tells her "it's all right" and helps her to her feet (CoS, Ch 17)

I could continue on in this vein, but since Ginny's role in PoA & GoF is so scanty & the direct interactions between Harry and Ginny far & few between, I think I'll just turn the tables & ask you to provide canon examples that he's rude or abrupt with Ginny.  Harry *avoids* the Creevey brothers -- there's no denying that.  But, I don't think he's actively rude to them; he just discourages Colin's hero-worship whenever possible.  IMO, he does so with tact & grace.

Dobby -- Why do you think Harry's rude to Dobby?  I can't for the life of me figure this one out.

** "Er .. I don't mean to be rude or anything, but -- this isn't a great time for me to have a house-elf in my bedroom."

** "Not that I'm not pleased to meet you," said Harry quickly....."

** "Sit down," said Harry politely, pointing at the bed."

** "I'm sorry," he whispered, "I didn't mean to offend you or anything."

** "You can't have meant many decent wizards....."

** "Can't anyone help you?  Can't I?"

** He's angry about Dobby stopping his letters ... but this seems perfectly natural reaction to me.

** "He blew his nose on a corner of the filthy pillowcase he wore, looking so pathetic that Harry felt his anger ebb away in spite of himself."  

** Take a look at the chapter entitled "Dobby's Reward."  Nope.  Not a shred of evidence of rudeness to Dobby there either.

** Harry obviously was going to be happy to have a conversation with Dobby at the QWC, although "Dobby" turned out to be Winky instead.  "How is he?" said Harry.  "How's freedom suiting him?"  

** "But you can say what you like about the Malfoys now?" Harry asked him, grinning.

Need I go on?  Nah ... this seems pointless.  

CharisJulia has more though:

<<<<So, as far as sensitivity towards others is concerned, well, you've 
got Neville and the Chocolate Frog and err, nothing else that I can 
think of. No, trying to make up with Hermione does not count IMO. And 
that's because I don't see an awful lot of trying going on there. 
Making a suggestion and then giving up at once when Ron turns it down 
fails to impress me. And the best he manages when Hagrid asks the 
boys to give her a break is to exchange an "uncomfortable look" with 
Ron and then forget about the matter completely. Not enough. IMO both 
Ron and Harry treated Hermione pretty bad in third year.>>>>>>>>

As far as trying to make up with Hermione, his actions in trying to make up with her do show evidence that he was sensitive to her feelings.  He didn't try hard enough, that's true.  But, he was not completely insensitive to her feelings.  He realized that he & Ron were in the wrong & he at least tried to put things right.  Hermione herself is somewhat to blame; her pride stood in the way of admitting her own fault & making efforts to get back on track with the boys.  But, Harry's not completely clueless about his own complicity in the arguments within the Trio.  

As for sensitivity to others, I guess I'd turn it around & say why don't you provide me examples of when Harry is *not* sensitive to the needs or feelings of others around him.  I think I've shown above that Harry is not insensitive or rude or abrupt with Ginny or Dobby (and only to the extent necessary with Colin).  He tries to be polite but unencouraging to Colin, and IMO, this is demonstrating sensitivity.  He could be downright rude to Colin but he isn't.  

HERMIONE'S AGE (DOES IT IN FACT MATTER)? --

Yes, Dave, there are some people who are emotionally invested in the answer for some reason, and yes, Amy, "helping out fanfic authors" is not a very good reason for wondering either.  In my case, as much as I love Hermione, I don't much care either way, and I don't feel wildly strongly about any of the evidence.  My gut feeling goes more with 1980 (younger!Hermione) ... but finding that bit of 1979 evidence in GoF has swayed my thinking somewhat.  

But on the whole, I'd say the importance doesn't lie so much with Hermione individually.  The importance is more in wondering how the Magical Quill and the Hogwarts admissions process interact.  That's the fascination for me.  Again, it's *not* earth-shattering; I concede that much.  But, it's probably just as significant as lots of other things that get debated but are far less maligned.  :--)

1980 BIRTHDATE FOR HARRY?  --

Steph asked:

<<<<On the 1980 being Harry's birth year, I was wondering something. It would 
make more sense that JK Rowling is writing the books so that they happen in 
real time, rather than events that have already happened - or it would make 
more sense for the age group HP is aimed at (9yr olds), just to make the 
books and the world of Harry Potter seem more 'real' to them. I wonder if it 
is possible that the working out of the date from Nearly Headless Nick's 
cake in CoS is just a blooper? 500 just being a handy number or something 
(or a more significant number to celebrate - after all, I think odd numbers 
have some magical significance...). Plus 1492 is supposed to be the year 
Christopher Columbus discovered America (which is a date most people know).>>>>

My first point is that [cover your ears everyone]: the HP books are *not* aimed at 9 year olds!  They are not.  JKR has said she has no target audience in mind.  Do you really think that GoF, where Harry & pals are *14/15,* is really a book *aimed at* 9 year olds?  I think the series will be increasingly hard to market as "9-12" frankly.  The "kids" will be adults in Book 7 for starters.  /soapbox  [that was really an amazingly short rant for me .... <g>]

A birthyear of 1980 means that Harry's first year at Hogwarts is 1991-1992.  This corresponds with the time that JKR first conceived of the HP books & began outlining & writing the series.  Even though PS wasn't published until 1997 in the UK, she was writing the first few chapters in 1990-1992 so it stands to reason that it would be set then.  She also submitted it for publication in 1995, which is much closer in time to 1991-92 than it is now.  I think it's important to remember that the series has actually been around longer than people realize.  :--)
 
***************

AND FINALLY ... 

I'd like to add *this* to my proof that Hermione means as much to Harry as Ron does:

"I'm not going anywhere!" said Harry fiercely.  "ONE OF MY BEST FRIENDS is muggle-born, she'll be first in line if the Chamber really has been opened --" (emphasis mine).

As if his statements & actions at the bottom of the Lake in the 2nd Task of GoF are not enough ... *that* should do it.  *That* is directly out of Harry's mouth (not the words of the narrator describing his friends).    

Triumphant!Penny


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