[HPforGrownups] The Spying Game and the Shrieking Shack (VERY LONG)

[Edblanning at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 39711

Gosh, Pip's been busy today!

Let me first say that I like your competant!Snape evidence very, very much 
and if I wasn't already a Snapefan, I would be now! I'm not sure I completely 
go along with the theory, but I can see how much of it works very well.

A few comments:

> [I'm not sure if Poppy Pomfrey has been given any instructions. Her 
> actions are consistent either with a ferocious matron worried about 
> her patients or with someone who has been told to make sure the 
> children don't talk too much, but not let in on why.]

I'm pretty sure that Madam Pomfrey is not in on anything. At the end of GoF, 
Dumbledore pointedly gets rid of her before revealing Sirius. I think this is 
particularly significant, since as the school matron, she sees an awful lot 
and is trusted, even by the kids, to say nothing and to ask no questions.

> 
> later in the scene:
> 
> Snape:" I suppose he's told you the same fairy tale he's planted in 
> Potter's mind? Something about a rat, and Pettigrew being alive-"
> 
> Dumbledore: "That, indeed, is Black's story."
> 
> *Dumbledore* has just shut *Snape* up. And, Dumbledore has carefully 
> moved the emphasis away from what Snape knows to what Black has said; 
> and by using 'story' he has implied that what Black has said is not 
> true. Why? 
> 
> Snape was not supposed to admit that he knows the words 'Pettigrew' 
> and 'rat' are connected. Note the dash at the end of Snape's line to 
> indicate he was going to continue the sentence.
> 
> What Dumbledore is afraid of is that any second now Snape is going to 
> mention 'Animagi', or even worse, 'Scabbers'. Fudge will take 
> *Snape's* evidence seriously. Snape, after all, has not claimed *he* 
> is confunded.
> 
> It's at this point Dumbledore is described as 'surveying Snape 
> closely' [as well he might; with a recent concussion our Severus can 
> hardly be expected to be on top form].

I'd never thought of Snape showing evidence of concussion here. You may be 
right in your interpretation. I'd always thought it a particularly masterful 
and clever piece of work by Snape, ensuring that *he* appears in the best 
light whilst putting down Harry in the most *sympatheitic* way. As I said 
recently, I'm not certain whether he believes the confunded theory or whether 
he's making it up; it is difficult to believe that he could *really* believe 
it, given that the person supposed to have performed the curse (?charm) was 
the only person in the room without a wand, but as I suggested, he may *want* 
to believe it as further evidence of Sirius' perfidy.

> <snip>
> The point is that neither Severus Snape or Albus Dumbledore would 
> have any reason to shift the conversation so deliberately away from 
> the word 'rat' unless they *both* knew that  'Peter-Pettigrew-is-
> alive-and-he's-Scabbers'. Snape already knew this in the shack; in 
> the hospital we see that Snape is not working alone. He and 
> Dumbledore are working as a team. Sorry, Evil!Snape fans [grin].
> 
> How do they know? Speculation City here :-). Well, Dumbledore was 
> Headmaster in the Marauder's day. Lupin and Sirius may *think* 
> Dumbledore didn't know about their Animagus abilities but he 
> certainly knows a great deal about what students get up to at present-
> day Hogwarts, even if he chooses to turn a blind eye (it's 
> interesting that he knew that James stole food from the kitchens in 
> his invisibility cloak). It's a very reasonable assumption that in 
> the two years between the Marauders learning to become Animagi and 
> their leaving school, Dumbledore (the ex-transfiguration teacher) 
> found out.
> 
> What canon tells us is what Sirius and Remus *think* about 
> Dumbledore's knowledge - not what Dumbledore actually does know.

Canon also tells us what Dumbledore is prepared to admit - that Sirius told 
him about them being Animagi that night. Although, of course, this doesn't 
mean he didn't already know. If he *did*, then this knocks on the head one of 
the pillars of the 'Dumbledore isn't as omniscient as he seems' argument (is 
there an acronym for that?)
> 
> So Dumbledore probably (non-canon assumption) already knew Pettigrew 
> was an Animagi; when is he likely to have realised he was Scabbers?
> 
> Again, we're off-canon here, but probably at precisely the same 
> moment Sirius did - when he saw the picture of Scabbers and his 
> missing toe in the Daily Prophet. Did he make some discreet enquiries 
> to try and find how long Scabbers had been with the Weasley's?

Dumbledore's pretty acute. I think he might have noticed how long that rat 
had been being brought to Hogwarts.
> 
> Was hiding in Hagrid's hut Pettigrew's very own idea? Or did Hagrid 
> deliberately find him and keep him there? Why didn't Pettigrew slip 
> past the Dementors before the scene in the shack? If Sirius could do 
> it, so could he, and leaving Hogwarts wouldn't be half as dangerous 
> as staying (not with Black and a mad part-kneazel to contend with). 
> Or did he not leave because Dumbledore was inconspicuously making 
> sure he *couldn't* escape. Not until he was supposed to.

Now Pettigrew hiding in Hagrid's hut, I have to admit, I always found pretty 
odd. He was so likely to have been *found* - as he was.

> 
> How did Snape know? Dumbledore told him. Why? Because Snape is his 
> loyal lieutenant, that's why. [ I can hear Cindy's screams from 
> here ;-) ]
> 
> 
> ***They intend to let Pettigrew escape. But after Harry has saved his 
> life.***
> 
> Did Dumbledore intend to let Pettigrew escape? Well, why else are 
> both Snape and Dumbledore firmly avoiding the word 'rat'? [I doubt 
> that they're both phobic :-) ]. How fast can a rat travel? If Fudge 
> had sent out a search party immediately, might Pettigrew have been 
> recaptured?

Have you ever tried to catch a rat?
Catching a tame hamster which you know is somewhere in the house is hard 
enough!
(Although an owl might do it rather efficiently, I suppose!)

> <snip>
> Snape, of course, was avoiding the subject of rats and Pettigrew in 
> the shack. Again, why is this? To make things bad for Sirius?
> 

He very pointedly refuses to listen to any mention of the rat. It could be as 
you say, or merely that his prejudice against Sirius is such that he 
automatically disregards anything he has to say.

> that's the case, why not hand Sirius over to the Dementors when he 
> has the chance? When asked about the Dementors he says  "By the time 
> I came round they were heading back to their positions at the 
> entrances"(PoA p.284) - not 'they were nowhere to be seen.' Snape had 
> an excellent opportunity there to say 'excuse me, but haven't you 
> forgotten someone?'

We've chewed over this one before. Perhaps the Dementors had *such* a shock 
that they just weren't coming back for more. Perhaps Snape had cooled down 
enough not to seek immediate personal revenge. Perhaps, suddenly finding 
himself in control of Sirius' inert form, he saw the opportunity for 
increasing his personal prestige by being the person who brought in Sirius 
alive (rather than merely *reporting* his kissing at the hands of the 
Dementors).

> <snip>
> 
> ***Dumbledore has NO idea whether Black is a Death Eater or not. 
> Snape is certain Black is guilty, hates him, and is very suspicious 
> of Lupin.***
> 
> Is there a listie who doesn't believe that Severus Snape hates Sirius 
> Black?  What we don't know is *why* Snape hates Black so much.  [This 
> is usually the point where Prank comes up and wags his tail and/or 
> LOLLIPOP sets sail with all flags flying. :-) ] I'll be truthful - I 
> don't know why Snape hates Black either. But I'm quite sure he 
> does. ;-)

I firmly believe (sorry, those who have heard it before) that the *present* 
reason why Snape hates Sirius so much is precisely that he *does* think 
Sirius is Voldemort's spy (reminding him of his own past; zeal of the 
converted, and all that) and moreover that he is the spy who outwitted him in 
his attempts to keep the Potters safe -  something even more unforgivable. ;-)

David:

>Pip wrote:
>> 
>> One question I've been asking myself is: 'what sort of war is the 
>> Voldemort-Potter war?'
>> 
>> The answer is that it's an undercover sort of war. A terrorist war. 
>>A  modern war. 
> 
>Now, I like this theory a lot, not because I necessarily agree with 
>it, but because it provides a sort of litmus test for the vexed 
>question of the sort of literature that HP is.

>My understanding is that the books are about the struggle between 
>good and evil, so that there is a fairly clearly identifiable good 
>and an identifiable evil.

>Characters who are in-between, like Fudge, are still judged in terms 
>of the overarching framework, because 'evil flourishes when good men 
>are silent' - to be in-between is to unwittingly aid evil.

Yes. Fudge *is* evil, quite seriously, whether he intends to be or not. If 
not consciously and personally so, he represents an institutionalised form of 
evil.

>However, the Dumbledore's Dirty War theory (as in effect this is) 
>radically redraws the boundaries.  It is a lot less obvious why 
>allegiance should be given to Dumbledore, either by Harry, or, in 
>moral terms, by the reader.  I think that if it turns out to be true, 
>it will lay to rest forever the claim that these are childrens' books.

>Instead of being about the (IMO) essentially juvenile theme of 
>choosing between good and evil, they will be about the adult (again 
>IMO) theme of choosing the lesser of two evils, of making up your 
>moral rules as you go along and never knowing if the outcomes justify 
>your choices.

Which is exactly where Diana (see Hypothetic Alley in the Admin Files) comes 
in. 
The conflict isn't a simple one 'twixt good and evil, but between the moral 
and the amoral, those who see life merely in terms of self-interest and those 
who seek the wider good and recognise the hard decisions that must be made in 
its pursuit.


Marina:

>Pip:
>> And what did Voldemort use to create a new body?  Which area is the 
>> one where Dumbledore is most likely to receive superb advice on how 
>> to create built-in problems? What subject is Snape most expert in?
>> Potions.

>Okay, I'm confused now.  Are you arguing that the Dumbledore and Snape
>manipulated events at the end of PoA in order to ensure that Voldemort
>uses Harry's blood to resurrect himself, thus becoming potentially
>vulnerable?  But there's no indication of a connection between the
>events in the Shrieking Shack and Voldemort's choice of ressurection
>spells.  They're two unrelated variables.  If Wormtail hadn't escaped,
>Voldemort would've either used someone else to cast the same spell, or
>he wouldn't have been resurrected at all.

There's no indication of a connection, sure.
But....I do find it interesting that he's resurrected via a *potion*. And I 
do wonder if Voldemort, believing Snape still loyal to himself, sent Wormtail 
to him for advice. And naturally Snape, now being on the side of right, 
engineered, along with   Dumbledore for there to be a fatal flaw (hence the 
gleam of triumph, when Dumbledore realised the plot had succeeded). If 
Wormtail had to believe Snape's continuing loyalty to Voldemort, that in 
itself would be a reason for Snape to ignore Sirius' pleas to 'look at the 
rat'.

Thinking about it, that's an interesting phrase and adds credence to Pip's 
hypothesis that Snape *did* know Pettigrew's animagic form. Why would merely 
*looking* at the rat tell Snape anything? (He could dismiss the missing digit 
as easily as Ron). Perhaps Lupin isn't the only one who's failed to mention 
to Dumbledore that the Marauders were Animagi. Perhaps James *did* rescue 
Snape as Prongs and this is why Snape can dismiss his heroism so easily (and 
he's not likely to admit to Harry that his dad was an Animagus). Snape 
knowing doesn't necessarily mean that Dumbledore does. I personally think 
that though they trust each other, they *both* play their cards close to 
their chests (witness Snape's repeated efforts to go it alone, apparently 
without involving Dumbledore). As Pip points out, information is being shared 
strictly on a 'need to know' basis.

Eloise

Who meant to say last time how thrilled she is that Marina has honoured the 
OFH with its very own FILK, which will now be sung at every meeting . :-)




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