[HPforGrownups] Re: Spying game/ Vodemort's resurrection/ Time Turner/ etc

[Edblanning at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 39801

Naama:
> > 
> > Eloise:
> > Oh yes, this is terribly personal for Severus. But that doesn't 
> exclude the possibility that it was happening against the background 
> of a greater plan.
> > After all, even if they *were* planning to send Pettigrew back, 
> Dumbledore and Snape both apparently believed at this point that >
> >Sirius was guilty.
> 
> This I find really hard to understand. Dumbledore and Snape at this 
> point know that Pettigrew is alive, is Scabbers and is a Voldemort 
> follower. When Lupin found out, he immediately concluded that if 
> Pettigrew is alive, then it means that the Secret Keeper had been 
> switched. Why wouldn't Dumbledore reache that same conlusion the 
> minute he realized that Pettigrew was alive? And if so, why on earth 
> should he still suspect Sirius of anything? The only thing that threw 
> suspicion on Sirius was that he was known to betray the Potters. But 
> if he wasn't the Secret Keeper, then he couldn't betray them, right? 
> 

Eloise:
I *think* (although I'm not certain) that we're talking about different 
points in the action. No, on consideration, perhaps we're not. You mean that 
Snape and Dumbledore know because that's a premise of Pip's theory?

When I say 'at this point', I mean in the Shack, and this is in the context 
that
a) I don't but the MAGIC DISHWASHER idea at present (which is probably 
contributing to my well-known tendency to get confused, or at least not to 
express myself very well), so that according to conventional interpretation, 
Snape and Dumbledore *did* both believe in his guilt, and 
b) even if I did buy it, it is still possible, as Porphyria pointed out (I 
don't know where to find the original amongst Pip's many posts!) that Snape, 
at the least (and therefore by implication Dumbledore) think they are *both* 
guilty and that the show-down was a falling out between two villains:

> Pip has suggested that perhaps Snape 
>thought Peter and Sirius were *both* traitors to the Potters and that 
>their eventual spat was simply a double-cross among crooks

However, I have sort of implied, or at the least, it's in the background of 
my thinking (I metioned it IIRC in the context of the reurrection potion) 
that I can see, in theory, at least, Snape and Dumbledore manipulating events 
to their advantage within a framework of what is unchangeable (e.g. they know 
that Voldemort *is* predicted to rise again and they can't do anything about 
that in itself, but they can do things to limit the damage). So even if I 
don't buy the full MAGIC DISHWASHER, I still can conceive that Snape's 
personal vendetta is not incompatible with a larger plan. 

Naama:
> If Dumbledore had known Pettigrew to be alive, he would have 
> immediately forced him into human form, marched him into MoM and got 
> Sirius released. To to otherwise would have been both very 
> 

Eloise:
Hey, this isn't my theory! I happen to agree! 

It doesn't stop me liking to see and play with the possibilities of other 
people's theories, though. Even if I'm not rushing straight out for my own 
MAGIC DISHWASHER, putting a few of my own ideas through Pip's has added some 
clarity to them. At least for me. 

I think we're coming at this from different directions. I've been splashing 
round Theory Bay too long, so (or because) I'm sympathetic to subversive, or 
even multiple interpretations of the same canon evidence. When it comes to 
things like this, I'm not particularly looking for the *right* interpretation 
and some of what looks like muddled thinking on my part is the effect of 
entertaining and playing with ideas which I'm simply not sure about. I tend 
to think on paper - or screen ;-). At other times, of course, I'm simply 
muddled ;-) and you can choose to interpret all my posts like that if you 
wish! ;-) 

Naama:
> 
> > 
> > Eloise:
> > There is obviously a time-restraint here and I think Debbie's 
> explanation is 
> > eminently reasonable. However....
> >
>Debbie:
> > >because (and I realize here that there are those who believe 
> >>differently, but 
> > >I think this is what JKR intended) the Time-Turner can't be used 
> to *change* 
> > >history; it creates simultaneous histories for the users of the 
> Time-Turner. 
> >  
> > >So Dumbledore shuts everyone up so H&H can get on with it ASAP.
> > 
> > Eloise:
> > You lose me here. I thought that you could (according to the story) 
> > and that this was what Hermione meant when she said, 
> > 'We're breaking one of the most important wizarding laws! Nobody's 
> supposed to change time, nobody! You heard Dumbledore, if we're seen -
> > ' (POA, UK paperback, 291-2)
> 
> I don't remember this quote specifically, but I think she is 
> *warning* Harry against doing anything that changes history (like 
> 

I assure you it's there! ;-) And I think it's accurate.

I don't understand how being seen is changing history and releasing a 
condemned Hippogriff just before its execution is not. And Hermione says, 'we 
*are* breaking', not 'we *mustn't* break'.
The trouble is these things become circular. So circular, in fact that 
changing history becomes an impossibility because you've already done it. 
Don't ask me to go any further......
> 
> > 
> > Now if the Time-Turner merely creates simultaneous histories for 
> the user, doesn't this mean that as far as Dumbledore, Hagrid, Fudge 
> etc, who haven't used the Time-Turner, Sirius is indeed worse than 
> dead?
> > 
> Naama:
> No, it doesn't create simultaneous histories. What happened in PoA is 
> that Buckbeak had never been executed. Ever. When Dumbledore had gone 
> out with the Mcnair, Buckbeak was not there. He was not there because 
> Future!Hary and Hermione had taken him. At the moment that Dumbledore 
> is outside, Future!Harry and Hermione are standing a few meters from 
> him, holding their breath. 
> At that point, Dumbledore (I'd think) had no idea but that Buckbeak 
> had somehow chewed through the rope. Only later, when confronted with 
> the problem of saving Sirius, did it click, and he realized the whole 
> Time Turner plan. That is, he had seen in the past the outcome of a 
> 

That's the best explanation I've seen so far.

Now, returning to LOON mode, this is something where there *is* a right 
answer!

Pip:

> > In the Potions class, Hermione offers to help Neville, and Snape 
> cuts her off 
> > coldly with the comment that he didn't ask her to show off.  
> Hermione went 
> > pink and shut up.
> 
> Errr... no, she doesn't. She helps Neville when he asks her by 
> hissing instructions at him out of the side of her mouth. I guess 
> this is an example of the way two people can read a scene in totally 
> different ways  - because to me the point here is that Snape 
> *doesn't* push it. He doesn't take House points off Gryffindor here - 
> even though he shows later in the Boggart class that he was perfectly 
> 


Since Debbie's gone to bed, I'll defend her :-)

POA (UK PB, 96)

"'Please, sir,' said Hermione, 'please, I could help Neville put it right - '
'I don't remember asking you to show off, Miss Granger,' said Snape, coldly, 
and Hermione went as pink as Neville."
.....................
Edis:
> The concept of a TT must therefore be known to at least some schools 
> staff and ministry officials and is likely to be known to others 
> apart from McG and Dumbledore.
> 
> But when in PoA Snape is screaming angry about the escape of Sirius, 
> Dumbledore cuts his tirade short asking how  Snape can suggest Harry 
> can be in two places at once ... and the Minister himself doesn't 
> take this point up. And does McG query what is or could have been 
> going on when Hermione returns the TT at the end of the book? No 
> 

No. It's a wonderful bluff. Worthy of Crouch Jr, in fact. He presents the 
answer on a plate in such a way that no-one would possibly consider it. Of 
*course* they couldn't be in two places at once - they'd need a Time-Turner 
for that! And where could school children have got hold of such a restricted 
item?

Eloise
Off to the real world to do boring things without the aid of magic appliances 
(and rather sorry that she and Naama always seem to be disagreeing).




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