Time-Turner (WAS Spying game/ Vodemort's resurrection/ Animagi

[elfundeb at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 39803

In a message dated 6/13/2002 6:36:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Edblanning at aol.com writes:


> You lose me here. I thought that you could (according to the story) and that 
> this was what Hermione meant when she said, 
> 'We're breaking one of the most important wizarding laws! Nobody's supposed 
> to change time, nobody! You heard Dumbledore, if we're seen - ' (POA, UK 
> paperback, 291-2)
> 
> Now if the Time-Turner merely creates simultaneous histories for the user, 
> doesn't this mean that as far as Dumbledore, Hagrid, Fudge etc, who haven't 
> used the Tim-Turner, Sirius is indeed worse than dead?
> 
> The only way I can get my head round that  at all is by slipping back into 
> multiple world theories  - helpfully also known as alternative histories - 
> (is this a case of Schrodinger's Dog, rather than Cat?) But again, I have 
> the 
> problem that the Dumbledore who sent them on their mission belongs to the 
> world where Buckbeak *was* executed. If they are creating a simultaneous 
> history, then that implies that there is a history where Sirius *is* 
> kissed..... Doesn't it? ....genuine question, because I start to get 
> confused 
> when I think about this too long. ;-)

And Naama responded

> No, it doesn't create simultaneous histories. What happened in PoA is 
> that Buckbeak had never been executed. Ever. When Dumbledore had gone 
> out with Mcnair, Buckbeak was not there. He was not there because 
> Future!Hary and Hermione had taken him. At the moment that Dumbledore 
> is outside, Future!Harry and Hermione are standing a few meters from 
> him, holding their breath. 
> At that point, Dumbledore (I'd think) had no idea but that Buckbeak 
> had somehow chewed through the rope. Only later, when confronted with 
> the problem of saving Sirius, did it click, and he realized the whole 
> Time Turner plan. That is, he had seen in the past the outcome of a 
> plan he would hatch in the future. 
> 
Naama is exactly right, except that I probably should explain the 
"simultaneous histories" statement.  There was only one time period from 9 
p.m. to midnight.  But Harry and Hermione had two simultaneous existences 
during that time frame.  They experienced the events consecutively, first as 
HH1, unaware of the existence of HH2, and then again as HH2 but fully 
cognizant that HH1 also were out on the grounds.  But there is only one set 
of events and, as Naama points out, Buckbeak was never executed.  We (and 
HH1) think he was, but it was Macnair throwing the axe into the stump 
offstage.  As for Sirius, who like Dumbledore, Buckbeak, Macnair and everyone 
else except Hermione and Harry only lives the events once, the timetable 
makes clear that HH2 effect his escape before the Dementor arrives.  At the 
beginning of ch. 22, HH2 overhear Snape telling Fudge, "The Kiss will be 
performed immediately."  But Sirius is already gone at this point, having 
escaped at the end of ch. 21.

I think a lot of the confusion about the Time-Turner arises because of 
Hermione's reference to changing time.  It's hard to decipher exactly what 
she means, but it could simply refer to the fact that every time Hermione 
uses the Time-Turner, she changes what time it is for herself.  However, 
there's nothing about the Time-Turner's actual use that suggests it can be 
used to change events that have already occurred.

The bigger Time-Turner issue, IMO, is the one raised by Hermione's comment 
that the greatest problem with the Time-Turner is people killing their former 
or future selves.  What happens then?  Do both Time-Turner users die?  And 
then there's the problem of getting back to the same place when your 
Time-Turned time is up.  Even Hermione had trouble managing that, at least at 
first.  (See ch. 7 -- "One minute you were right behind us, the next moment, 
you were back at the bottom of the stairs again.")  I've never figured out 
how she managed this at all in a crowded corridor.


> Incidentally, the whole Time-Turner incident does show that Dumbldore is 
> already, in POA, prepared to act (or encourage acts) outside the law if he 
> sees fit.

Absolutely.  But Dumbledore very purposefully does not tell Harry and 
Hermione what to do.  He merely reminds them of the tools at their disposal 
("What we need . . . is more time") and only after Hermione makes clear 
("OH!") that she understands what she needs to do, Dumbledore gives them 
specific information (Sirius' location, the possibility of saving two 
innocent lives, a reminder of the prohibition on being seen and how much time 
they need) to carry out what he knows they will try to do.  This is his modus 
operandi -- to lay out information that allows others to make their own 
choices and trusting them.  I just can't see him devising the kind of 
elaborate plans.

Debbie, needing to run off to children's school, where she will contemplate 
the Snape/Quirreldemort conundrum




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