Snape theory/Quirrell/Diary plotting/Elkin's DE post

[naamagatus]

No: HPFGUIDX 39850

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "grey_wolf_c" <greywolf1 at j...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Nik's trun:
> > Marina said:
> > >I still think the events of CoS were planned by Diary!Voldemort, 
not Vapor!Voldemort,
> > 
> > I have to agree with Marina. I unfortunately don't have my books 
here with me, so I can't quote specific passages. If I correctly 
remember  Riddle's explanation to Harry about how he used Ginny, he 
says that  he was *very* interested in everything she had to say 
about Harry, especially dealing with Voldemort's downfall. I had 
always assumed that was because Diary!V had no knowledge of this. 
IIRC, Dumbledore speculates that 16 yr old Tom must have captured an 
impression (shadow? memory? What would you call that thing?) of 
himself in the diary. I took this to mean that Diary!V had all the 
knowledge, memories, etc. of Tom *up to that point in time*, but that 
he doesn't have any connection to Voldemort after he is stored in the 
>>>diary.
> 
> That's one reason to think that the plan was *NOT* thought up by 
> Diary!Voldemort, but by either Lucius himself or Vapor!Voldemort. 
The reason? Diary!V looks pretty much out of touch with the modern 
reality: 
> doesn't know his future self had been beaten until Ginny tells him, 
> etc. It looks like no-one had fed him any ink for quite a while. 
> Thus, the plan couldn't have originated in him.


I agree. However ...

> 
> The other two have both reason to plan it. Pip defended the reaons 
> VapourV had and IIRC, Marina defended Lucius reasons. From the 
MAGIC DISHWASHER PoV, it looks like the typical distraction Voldemort 
might use while his own plans, after the defeat over the PS, get back 
>into gear. 

If Voldemort had a hand in this plot, why didn't he mention it in his 
graveyard speech? He describes his attempt to get the Philosophers' 
Stone via Quirrel. Then he says, "I returned to my hiding place far 
away ... yes, that was perhaps my darkest hour ... and I had given up 
hope, now, that any of my Death Eaters cared what had become of 
me... ." Then he continues "And then, not even a year ago, when I had 
almost abandoned hope, it happened at last ... a servant returned to 
me: Wormtail here ...", and he continues with the GoF plot 
reconstruction.
Now, if he is telling the truth, then he had no contact with any DE 
between the end of PS and the end of PoA. Meaning, he had nothing to 
do with Lucius planting the Diary.
OTOH, if he is lying, then for some reason he is telling the truth 
about Quirrel, and the truth about Wormatil, Bertha, Crouch, etc., 
but he is lying about the Diary plot. Why? 
It can't be because the plot failed (i.e., to save face), since he 
told his DEs of the PS plot which also failed. Is it to defend 
Lucius' part in the plot? But Lucius is present, right there, a 
first rank DE, Voldemort's slippery friend. Why not tell of how he 
has helped the Dark Lord in his time of need?

Moreover, Voldemort says to Lucius: "I am *told* that you have not 
renounced the old ways... . Yet you never tried to find me, Lucius 
... but might not your energies have been better directed towards 
finding and *aiding* your master?" [my emphasis] 

Clear, isn't it? Unless Voldemort is lying, then Lucius has done 
nothing to *aid* him during these last thirteen years. Again, why 
would he lie about it? If he wanted to keep the whole thing secret 
(and I really can't think of a reason for that), he could just have 
passed Lucius by. Or said something else. It seems a completely 
unnecessary lie (and surely there's an unspoken rule that fictional 
characters cannot be pathological liers, right? <g>). 


Naama 






And I agree that, while Lucius had some things to win (which 
is 
> why he finally did give the diary over to Ginny), there was a lot 
he 
> could loose, too. I don't think he would like Draco turned into a 
nice 
> garden statue, nor into the modern version of Moaning Myrtle, so 
even 
> if the gains were good, he was risking something nearly as valuable 
as 
> his neck (not to speak of all the things he ended up loosing in the 
> scheme, including an influent position in the school board and a 
lot of 
> money, objects and respect).
> 
> OTOH, I agree completely that Diary!Voldemort should have taken 
some 
> time to read the 100 an eviloverlord should do. His most obvious 
error 
> is right at the beggining, in fact:
> 
> 7.When I've captured my adversary and he says, "Look, before you 
kill 
> me, will you at least tell me what this is all about?" I'll say, 
"No." 
> and shoot him. No, on second thought I'll shoot him then say "No."
> (taken from http://www.eviloverlord.com without persmission, but I 
> think I've earned it. I've given them publicity enough. Besides I'm 
an 
> evil overlord myself: don't pay for what you can steal ;-) )
> 
> Finally, Elkins made a great post on why the DEs missed Harry in 
the 
> graveyard scene. Since the rules of the board don't admit putting 
one 
> liners just to say "I agree", I put it here at the end of my 
keep-up 
> post. Great theory, Elkins. Count with me to defend it if anyone 
> attacks it. They may be bad, or they may be gray, but DEs aren't 
> stupid, and they're not going to shoot at a boy who reflects AK 
with 
> his skin alone. For all they know, the only one who can now AK him 
is 
> Voldemort himself, thanks to the blood bonding, and they're not 
going 
> to make the experiment. They're not there to risk their necks for 
the 
> greater cause, after all. That's what the *good* guys do.
> 
> Hope that helps,
> 
> Grey Wolf