Time-Turner

[random_monkey0_0]

No: HPFGUIDX 39878

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., elfundeb at a... wrote:
Responding to two posts at once:

Eloise:
> > So....Hermione attends Divination. Whilst she is there, the 
Arithmancy 
> > class 
> > takes place, *without* Hermione. As far as the other students are 
concerned 
> > she isn't there - or is she? Not until/unless she does actually 
use the TT. 
> > So if she uses it, is she changing something or not? And if Harry 
was sent 
> > from Divination to the Arithmancy classroom, would he see her 
there or not? 
> > 
 Debbie:
> The other students always see Hermione in Arithmancy.  <snip> so if 
Trelawney sent Harry with a note for Professor 
Vector, 
> Harry would see Hermione both in Divination and in Arithmancy. 

Quite! This is supported by the fact that Harry sees himself do 
Expecto Patronum.

On another note, if Harry saw Hermione in two places at once, he 
wouldn't believe it (or, more than likely, he would, but just be 
horribly confused.) That is why, when seeing himself do Expecto 
Patronus, since he was about to be killed by dementors, and was 
horribly disoriented, he thought it was his father. If he were 
thinking rationally, he would think, "But that's me! But... It can't 
be!" 

Eloise:
> > But I still come back to the thought that it is very strange that 
one of 
> > the 
> > most important wizarding laws is that you mustn't change time if, 
in fact, 
> > it 
> > is impossible to do so.

It's not impossible. Basically, you will know what happened before you 
actually do it. The effect is seen before the cause. 

Non-canon example: Ever seen Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure? 
Remember that part where they're at the police station, and Ted (or 
Bill, one of them) says, "What if in the future, I go back in time and 
hide the keys [to the jail call they're trying to get into] under this 
bush?" He then pulls the keys out from under the bush. He has not done 
it yet, but because he will, eventually, effect a change *in the 
past*, the effect can be seen before the cause. But if he never went 
back, he would have pulled a handful of dirt out from under the bush. 
So he did change time, it just *seems* like he didn't because he knows 
the effects before he caused them. 


> > But I wonder what 'changing time' means? Is it saying the TT 
itself is 
> > illegal? Hermione seems clearly to be indicating that whatever 
they are 
> > aboutto do *is* illegal, yet the TT apparently has legitimate use, 
to which 
> > McGonnagall confirmed it was going to be confined.

Debbie: 
> I haven't decided whether Hermione means that they were acting 
illegally 
> because the Ministry had not authorized her to use the Time-Turner 
for 
> purposes other than studies (i.e., being in 2 places at once) or 
because 
> there was something inherently wrong about what they attempted to 
do. 

Both. Hermione knows the ministry hasn't authorized it, and never 
would in a million years, because it's inherently wrong. There is an 
innocent sort of time travel, with no negative effects (except 
Hermione's high stress level), abd there's malicious time travel, to 
do something illegal.

Debbie:
>I don't think it's impossible for 
Harry to pick 
> up the Invisibility Cloak (that would perhaps fall into the same 
category as 
> killing one's own other self, which Hermione clearly states has 
happened)

She did? It sounded to me like she just thought it was a possibility. 
Can you cite the canon for me? (I'm afraid I don't own copies of the 
books, and check them out from the library, and usually the Spanish 
edition then.)


Harry's not authorized to use the TT, so he hasn't been 
instructed on 
> what happens when someone tries to change an event.  His natural 
instinct is 
> to try to improve history, which he may not do because he'll fall 
into the 
> paradox of creating multiple histories.

New non-canon ref: Red Dwarf, the novel (second novel, I think, 
correct me if I'm wrong):
Lister sees Cat running down the hall, screaming about his teeth. He 
knows that this is an image from the future. He tries to stop whatever 
happens to Cat, to prove the future isn't set in stone. He runs into 
his bedroom, where Cat is about to eat one of Lister's robotic 
goldfish. Lister goes to stop him, in the process knocking Cat around, 
and somehow damaging Cat's teeth. Cat runs down the hall, screaming 
about his teeth. This is what I was referring to in my previous 
"waking the baby" post. Anything you try to do to change the future is 
in vain.
(Actually, I can't believe I'm arguing for this theory, as I always 
held it in highest contempt.)

Eloise:
each class period was only held once, but Hermione1 attended 
> Divination, Hermione2 attended Arithmancy, etc.

No, there was only Hermione1. Hermione1 as seen in Divination was an 
hour younger than Hermione1 as seen in Arithmancy.

Eloise:
> > And needs to go and think about Snape and Quidemort again. 

Quidemort? Sounds intriguing! Can you e-mail and tell me what that's 
about, please?

The Random Monkey, who is trying to figure out how the veteran listies 
keep up with al these posts!