SPEW / Wizard Age / Immortal!V / Decisive Battles / Wands / NEVILLE

[catlady_de_los_angeles]

No: HPFGUIDX 40214

FourFuries wrote:
<< I suspect Hermione's minions here on the list will be shocked to 
discover that the biggest difference between House Elf slavery and
our modern examples of abuse is that house elves are not human >>

Did you mean to type 'minions', presumably meaning SPEW members, or 
did you mean to type 'detractors'? Because the way I first read your 
statement, I thought you agreed with SPEW that the House Elves are 
enslaved and abused and this is oppression and wrong and immoral and 
they should be freed. But when I got to typing this comment, I saw 
that your words could possibly be taken to mean that House Elf 
slavery is NOT ABUSE and NOT A BAD THING because House Elves aren't 
human and therefore (just as Hermione's detractors said to Hermione's 
"minions") are perfectly happy and healthy in their current condition.

WIZARD AGE********

Ginny Merry Mom wrote:
<< We don't know when more important milestones might be reached, 
like when one could vote (if there is any of that in the WW) or marry 
or sign legal documents. >>

I don't know if signing legal documents would be an important 
milestone in a world where Harry's name having been put into the 
Goblet of Fire was a BINDING MAGICAL CONTRACT even tho' Harry was 
underage AND it wasn't even him who put the name in.

Anyway, if Harry's parents were married before he was born, they were 
married before July 31st 1980. Their age at that time *could* have 
been as young as 19. The evidence for Harry's parents' ages is that 
they were in the same year at Hogwarts as Snape and JKR said in an 
interview that Snape "is" 35 or 36. Of course, there is room to 
speculate whether that statement applied to Snape in Book 1, Book 4, 
or the year in which JKR gave the interview ... that is, in some year 
from 1991 to 2000. The Lexicon 
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/index.html apparently chose the 
middle path, end of Book 4, 1995, and says that they were born in 
1960, which would make them 20 when Harry was born. I did my 
computations at the same time as Lexicon Steve did his but ended up 
with 1957-8 (by using Book 1 as my marker), which would make them 23 
then. The impression I get is that wizarding folk are allowed to 
marry and all other milestones at age 17, except if they do some of 
those milestones (such, I imagine, as getting married) before leaving 
Hogwarts, they will be expelled and never get any NEWTs.

IMMORTALITY**********

Lizbot asked: 
<< if Voldemort can keep on coming back like that, how can they ever 
really kill him? >>

It appears to be presented in canon that Voldemort kept coming back 
like that BECAUSE he was immortal, because he had made himself 
immortal by magic, but he is no longer immortal at the end of GoF, 
because he gave up his immortality in order to get a new body. There 
are things that Voldemort tells his Death Eaters in the GoF scene of 
the Death Eater circle in the graveyard: "how could they have 
believed that I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps I took, 
long ago, to guard myself against mortal death?" and "But I was 
willing to embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortal. I set 
my sights lower ... I would settle for my old body back again, and my 
old strength." Therefore, there is a theory that the famous gleam in 
Dumbledore's eye at the end of GoF is because Dumbledore heard Harry 
tell that Voldemort is now (temporarily) mortal again and therefore 
can now be killed without coming back like that. 

Grey Wolf repeated:
<< it's doubtful that Voldemort thought [his re-incarnation potion] 
up, since he is neither a potion master nor is the potion included 
in his field of study. He spent his life looking for inmortality 
methods, and the potion is a way to become mortal (basically, to get
a new body). >>

*I* think that Voldemort thought up his re-incarnation potion 
himself, despite the person who quoted him saying it was 'an old 
piece of Dark Magic'. I think it *IS* part of his area of study. You 
think of it as 'a way to become mortal', but I think of it as 'a way 
to come back after one's body is killed', and there is great confusion 
of thought about 'immortality" and "re-incarnation", about "coming 
back" and "never leaving". So in his years of study, he might have 
learned enough about re-incarnation magic and coming-back magic to 
decide that those spells were not going to reach him his goal, but 
enough to have the knowledge in his mind for him to brood over during 
all those body-less years. 

Hey! Maybe a different form of the re-embodiment potion (that only 
works on a person who already has a strong body) was what transferred 
him from his original mortal Tom body to his immortal Voldemort 
snake-man body! As I happen to believe that he transformed into his 
snake-man appearance WHEN/BECAUSE his attempts at immortality spells 
had success -- I imagine that was in 1969 and was immediately 
followed by recruiting Death Eaters to engage in terrorism and 
conquer the wizarding world. (I also happen to believe that the 
snake-man body has no genitals and no sex drive, having all the 
mental sex stuff subliminated into power, torture, and killing. I 
therefore reject all Voldemort/anyone slash or het.) 

Hey! maybe why Vapor!Voldemort keeps 'returning' to a forest in 
Albania could be, maybe it was in that forest that he did the most 
effective immortality spell, the one that causes him to remain alive 
as a vapor even when his body is killed or destroyed, and maybe what 
it really does is not to *remain alive* as a vapor, but rather to 
*come back* as a vapor, and a bug, I mean a not yet corrected 
feature, of the spell is that Vapor!Voldemort always coalesces into 
existence in the place where he did that spell. (An idea that reminds 
vaguely of Philip Jose Farmer's "Riverworld" series, in which the 
gimmick is that any one who dies is re-incarnated the next morning at 
a random location along the River, so some explorers seek new places 
by suicide ... the different is that V!V would re-appear at a 
NON-RANDOM location.)

DECISIVE BATTLES********

Alexander wrote: 
<< In military history there's no example of a country that won a war 
after losing the decisive battle, no matter how minor (or major) that 
battle would seem.>>

and Grey Wolf replied: 
<< most of the decisive battles were not identified as such until 
*after* the war, when historians could examine all the evidence >>

Alexander answered:
<< That's why Klauzevitz warned in his works, that *every* battle can 
prove to be decisive. >>

I suspect that is because there WAS NO decisive battle, in the sense 
in which Alexander asserts that the Graveyard Battle was the decisive 
battle of the Second Voldemort War. After everything is over, 
historians look back and find a battle which the eventual losing side 
lost and DECLARE it to have been the decisive battle, using as much 
ingenuity and research as our Theory Bay conspirators. Btw, the 
English transliteration is von Clauswitz.

Btw, Alexander (did you once say I could call you Sasha or Lexy or 
Xander, something nice like that?), your sig always identifies you as 
a Gryffindor/Slytherin cross-breed, and I always bridle at that. 
You're welcome to be a Gryffindor/Slytherin combination (FAP seems to 
be full of self-declared Gryfferins and Slythindors and Ravenpuffs and 
Slytherclaws and so on), but in English, "cross-BREED" states what 
your PARENTS were, not where the Hat Sorted YOU. 

WANDS*******

N Fry wrote: 
<< I believe that there must be multiple wands that could be 
compatible with a wizard. Some are just more so than others. If not, 
what are the odds that the one wand that is suited to Harry just 
happens to be in the wand store that he stops in? >>

Corinth Kkearny replied: << I think wands are something like certain 
types of clothing, such as evening gowns or bathing suits >>

I agree with Corinth, altho' my metaphor was going to be shoe sizes 
(USA sizes in this example, sorry). Anyone with size 6B feet can wear 
a great many shoes that were made in size 6B (some may fit better 
than others for individuality reasons), and any size 6B shoe can be 
worn by a great many people whose feet are size 6B. But people with 
an uncommon size, such as 1AAA (super tiny and super narrow, there is 
a famous jockey's daughter who has this size) or 1EEE (super tiny and 
almost as wide as long) have a LOT of trouble finding ANY shoe that 
fits them. 

I think that the "size" (let me call if "zise") of a wand is NOT 
determined by its length, wood, core, and tensility (the traits that 
Ollivander lists) but by something magic. I think that self-propelled 
measuring tape has nothing to do with it, instead Ollivander figures 
out the customer's zise by how far off each sample wand is ... the 
first sample had way too much zing and way too little duzz and the 
wrong color of xyll, so let's try one with less zing and more duzz 
and a different color of xyll ... now this one has the right amount 
of zing but still too little duzz and still the wrong color of xyll 
... But most people and also most wands would be one of a few common 
zises, so most customers would be properly fitted with any one of 15 
or so wands that are among the 100 Ollivander keeps next to the cash 
register (yes, the cash register is not from canon). That's why he 
enjoys the challenge of a hard-to-fit customer, and why he has so 
many, many rare wands stacked up just waiting for centuries in case a 
customer comes in who needs EXACTLY that rare zise.    

N Fry: << Do you think it is possible to "outgrow" your wand? >>

I personally don't think so, as I believe that the zise is some 
metaphysical part of the self, that doesn't change, but I think wands 
might wear out faster than people do, so that Lily could have worn 
out her 'first wand' during school and gotten a second one when she 
left school. Same for Charlie, whose "old wand" Ron was stuck with. 
However, the argument to the contrary is that apparently Voldemort is 
stiill using the wand that Tom Riddle bought 50 to 60 years earlier.

Ann temporarily blue asked: 
<< how does one get the core into a wand? >>
to which Rosie answered: 
<< Maybe they are sort of threaded through >>

I think so, too, but my imagination specifies that a long hole is 
drilled into the solid rod of wood (by use of a drill bit that spins 
on its own when placed by hand, started and stopped by magic words, 
and guided straight by wand waves), the core is threaded into the 
hole, and then the bottom of the wand is sealed by a magic spell that 
regrows the wood. However, this web site has photographs of another 
way to put a core in a wand: http://www.thewandshop.com/wandmaker.htm

N Fry wrote: << (who wants her own wand and is curious to know what 
type she would get) >>

All the get-your-wand sites I know use randomizers, but this is the 
one with the most possibilities: 
http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/worldofmagic/wand.html 
The Wand Shop (above), the official WB HP site, and many others will 
randomly assign you one of only a few choices. The difference is, at 
the Wand Shop you can buy it in the physical world (but I have not 
shopped there yet).

Ann concluded: 
<< I wonder how much specialized training wizards get? Wand making 
sounds quite artistic, very few wizards in the business. Do wizards 
learn everything they need while at Hogwarts? Is that basic level of 
magic enough to do all the various things we've seen adult wizards 
doing (as a profession)? >>

For some jobs, such as conductor on the Knight Bus and dishwasher at 
the Leaky Cauldron, I bet the kid just out of Hogwarts has already 
learned everything he/she needs. For some other jobs, the kid just 
out of Hogwarts would have to get hired into a trainee position 
(which I imagine is the kind of job that Percy has at MoM), and I 
believe that there are other jobs for which a kid just out of 
Hogwarts would have to go through an apprenticeship before being able 
to get an entry-level (journeyman) job. 

There is some reference in canon to the NEWTs being the highest 
qualification offered by Hogwarts, which doesn't rule out there being 
Guilds that offer a higher qualification, such as two of them: 
Journeyman and Master. I imagine that some of the Guilds would be 
very much like graduate schools in Muggle universities, but JKR's 
statement that there is no university for wizards would remain 
technically true because the Guilds had not joined together as one 
institution named University.

NEVILLE********

Darrin to Elkins: 

<< I find it hard to believe that had they been in Ravenclaw or 
Hufflepuff, the same advice wouldn't be given. >>
<< Ah, but it is heroic. :) You see caving in. I see a young man 
taking a brave step out of his shell and being rewarded for it. >>

Darrin, you see it just the way that JKR intended it and most readers 
see it. But Elkins has a more subtle view, which I believe is worth 
understanding (not necessarily agreeing with). BTW, Elkins surely 
didn't intend to suggest that Harry and his friends were deliberately 
pressuring Neville to be more assertive; I'm sure she relizes that 
they were entirely intending to say comforting things to him, but 
noticing that, ironically, their comforting statements didn't comfort 
him at all.

I expect that the same advice would have been given, about standing 
up for yourself, and physically fighting, maybe even if they were in 
Slytherin (!), because, as someone has pointed out on this list, the 
whole wizarding world (and apparently JKR, who once said: "If anyone 
was ever meant to be in Gryffindor, it's me") has the same value 
system, a warrior value system which is exemplified by the Gryffindor 
ideals. Also, it's the advice that is given in our Muggle world. But 
I can IMAGINE other advice being given. 

Slytherin advice: get some dirt on him and threaten to reveal it if 
he displeases you, or get something he wants and bribe him ... that 
latter has the flaw that he could take the bribe and not carry out 
his part of the bargain, so it would be best to arrange to not 
actually hand it over until the end of the school year. Get a big 
strong dumb Hufflepuff 'friend' to always accompany you as a 
bodyguard...

Ravenclaw advice: if you learned to be invisible, he couldn't find 
you to hurt you. Do you want to borrow my Invisible Book of 
Invisibility? How about learning the Shield Charm? Or some kind of 
Confundus Charm that would make him forget that he intended to do 
something to you? Or if you were always somewhere other than he was 
... you could make a schedule of his comings and goings in order to 
avoid him, and make a map of the Castle to find what other routes are 
available to you. Maybe we could get him expelled, if we documented 
all his wrong doing, with dates and times and witnesses...

Hufflepuff advice comes in at least two flavors, depending on WHAT 
duty the Hufflepuff in question is loyal to. If heesh is loyal to the 
values of the wizarding world, the advice is much like that given by 
Our Heroes. If the Hufflepuff is loyal to certain Muggle religions, 
the advice is to turn the other cheek, love your enemies and bless 
them that hurt you, and remember that the meek will inherit the earth 
and the poor in spirit get the kingdom of heaven. It doesn't have to 
be Christianity (altho' those are the quotes that sprang most quickly 
to my fingers): Gandhi was the great philosopher of non-violent 
resistance and NOT a Christian.

I think Elkins is coming from the non-violence viewpoint, seeing 
Neville as having a innate but inchoate attitude of non-violence, 
and wishing that he was put in the way of organizing his thoughts by 
studying the philosophy of non-violence, maybe via Gandhi and King, 
maybe via Christ and Buddha. I imagine that regular meditation would 
do much to relieve Neville's stress from being bullied, and that if 
he always responded to Malfoy's mockery and physical attacks with a 
calm smile and some calm statement like maybe: "I'm glad you're 
enjoying yourself so much; I love seeing people be happy.", that 
would drive Malfoy ABSOLUTELY UP THE WALL. However, I suspect that 
JKR has set up a situation in which non-violent resistance does not
do one damn bit of good against Voldemort... I wonder what JKR thinks 
about non-violent resistance in real life examples?