Hagrid, Dumbledore, & Second Chances (LONG)

[cmf_usc]

No: HPFGUIDX 40266

Replying quite late to Naama, Pip, and Debbie, with lots of snippage 
since I'm so behind (real life and all that :)  

I said:
<<<That's what I worry about. What is she *doing* with Hagrid? What 
message is JKR trying to send about second chances? That they should 
be handed about like candy? I hope not. And I guess that's why
I'm sort of pulling for a Hagrid screw-up down the pipe. 

So far, Dumbledore's track record with the second chances just 
doesn't seem to be working out in the good guy's favor. 
There's Hagrid, of course. Then we've got Lupin, in denial about his 
werewolfish-ness, causing danger to students as a teenager and as an 
adult.

It remains to be seen what Sirius will make of his second chance. 
Will his animosity towards Snape cause major problems, just as it did 
in their youth? (Not trying to instigate any Prank discussions here, 
I promise!)>>>

Naama:
<<<Neither Hagrid nor Lupin screwed up in any way to have them need a 
second chance. Dumbledore didn't give them a second chance, he gave 
them *a* chance. He kept Hagrid as groundkeeper because he knew 
(although he couldn't prove) that Hagrid was unjustly expelled. He 
accepted Lupin as a student in Hogwarts, rather than denying him 
edcuation because of something that was not his fault in the first 
place. In the same way, by taking Lupin as a teacher, you might say 
that Dumbledore is giving him a chance, providing him an opening that 
most of the WW denies him, but it's not a second chance. Lupin didn't 
screw up on anything. 
(Regarding Sirius - my understanding has always been that Dumbledore 
didn't know of Sirius' part of the Prank (until Sirius confessed in 
PoA). I don't want to start a Prank discussion either, but on my 
reading, Sirius is simply irrelevant to this issue.)>>>

Now me:
Well
 I disagree.  Respectfully, of course :)  Let's start with 
Lupin.  Accepting him as a student was certainly the right decision.  
That was his *chance*, as you say.  And I think Lupin made some 
rather big mistakes with his chance.  No, no-one got hurt.  But I'm 
with Hermione on this one:

"That was still really dangerous!  Running around in the dark with a 
werewolf!  What if you'd given the others the slip, and bitten 
somebody?" (PoA, p. 355)

And Lupin replies, saying that that is "A thought that still haunts 
me" "And there were near misses, many of them."

Granted, Dumbledore didn't find out about all this til the end of 
PoA, years and years later.  But when he did find out – and found out 
that Lupin had forgotten to take his potion and could have bitten 
anyone the night after the Shrieking Shack – he didn't fire him.  
Lupin resigns, owning up to his mistakes (but would he have done so 
if Snape hadn't outed him?  I don't know
)

Okay, on to Sirius.  (I'll come back to Hagrid in a minute).  I was 
under the impression that Snape shouted Sirius & James's involvement 
from the rooftops back when he was in school
 

"Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen," 
he (Snape) breathed.  "You haven't forgotten that, Headmaster?  You 
haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill *me*?"  "My memory is as 
good as it ever was, Severus," said Dumbledore quietly.  (PoA, p.391) 
(scene in hospital wing before H&H use time-turner)

That doesn't directly say that Dumbledore knew back at the time, of 
course, but Snape seems to be prodding Dumbledore to remember 
something from long ago, not a few minutes before when Black may have 
confessed.  That's how I see it, anyway.  So in my mind, when 
Dumbledore has Snape & Sirius shake hands in GoF, asking them to work 
on the same side, he's giving them a second chance to not let their 
animosity overtake them and cause problems for the good side (as, I 
think, it did in the Shack.  If they had been able to get along, 
Pettigrew would have been less likely to get away, IMO.)  I tend to 
see them as equal partners in the Prank so I think they both have 
some work to do.  But again, not trying to start Prankish discussions!

Okay, Hagrid.  

I said:
<<<Hagrid doesn't seem to have repented. His fascination for 
"interestin' creatures" still causes danger for students, just like 
it did, oh, 50 years ago.>>>

And Naama said:
<<<<rolls eyes in astonishment> What on earth does Hagrid have to 
repent?! His "interestin' creature" didn't hurt anybody, remember? It 
was the basilisk, controlled by Riddle, that killed Myrtle. Aragog 
was safely tucked in his closet, a threat to nobody:

"So you never - never attacked anyone?"
"Never," croaked the old spider. "It would have been my instinct, but 
from respect of Hagrid, I never harmed a human." (CoS, p. 206)

See? Hagrid has nothing to repent. He hasn't failed his second 
chance, because he never needed to be given a second chance. He has 
(presumably) carried out his job well enough to earn a promotion.>>>

Me:
Yup, you're right of course, that Aragog didn't hurt anyone back 
then.  But I have to agree with Ron:

"Ron gave a loud snort.  Evidently, hatching Aragog in a cupboard 
wasn't his idea of being innocent."  (CoS, p. 281)

No, I don't think Hagrid deserved to be expelled.  But I think he 
deserved some punishment.  We don't have any way of knowing what 
would have happened, of course, but I think keeping Aragog was 
dangerous.  You saw his attitude towards Ron & Harry (Hagrid's 
*friends*!):

"My sons and daughters do not harm Hagrid, on my command.  But I 
cannot deny them fresh meat, when it wanders so willingly into our 
midst.  Goodbye, friend of Hagrid!" (CoS, p. 279)

I think Hagrid's actions as a schoolboy were dangerous, even if no-
one got hurt, just like I think Lupin's were.

Now, we don't know that Dumbledore found out about Norbert, but that 
incident follows pretty much the same pattern as the Aragog one—
hatching a dangerous creature that Hagrid is just *sure* won't hurt 
anyone.  And when Norbert hurt Ron and they had to get rid of him, 
who took the fall?  Harry and Co.!  *grumbles at Hagrid, a school 
employee letting students take his blame*  So I guess you can't count 
Norbert as a failed second chance, if Dumbledore didn't find out.  
But he *did* find out that Harry and Ron went to see Aragog.  And he 
*did* find out that Hagrid told a stranger about Fluffy.  

I think Dumbledore has a blind spot about Hagrid, honestly.  More on 
that later.

******************
Pip said;
<<<I'm beginning to wonder what full-blood giants are like. Maybe 
this is why Dumbledore is so tolerant of what would, in a full-blood 
human, be character flaws - because they're simply part of 
Hagrid's 'Giantness'.>>>

Me:
I hadn't thought about this, and we haven't met any real giants, so 
it's hard to say.  Our other part-giant doesn't seem to have the same 
character traits as Hagrid, though, does she?  Madam Maxime knows 
enough to *not* admit to being half-giant.  She seems to keep things 
pretty close to her chest, unlike Hagrid, and has a better 
understanding of duplicity.  So
 I don't know. 

And if you are right about this, then I have to agree with Jenny:
<<<About Hagrid's childishness again - if it is part of his giant 
blood (which is an idea that I don't like) that he's emotional and 
simple minded, then he sure as hell shouldn't be trusted with 
important errands and responsibilities.>>>

*******************
Now, Debbie, who is making me feel better about Dumbledore:
<<<Dumbledore's also got a couple of job openings, and he can't 
afford to make any more hiring mistakes like Quirrell and Lockhart. 
The number one qualification for a job at Hogwarts these days has got 
to be loyalty.>>

Me:
That's a very good point; it doesn't matter how together you are, or 
how brilliant, if you can be swayed over to the other side easily.  
Very good point.  

Debbie again:
<<<I think Dumbledore believes in giving those who are loyal to him 
as many chances as they need to get it right. Dumbledore has a long 
history of favoring on-the-job apprenticeships to classroom lessons. 
He's rather a Deist in his strategy: Instead of intricately worked 
out plans with specific outcomes, Dumbledore just makes available the 
tools they will need to train themselves. He knows they will screw up 
sometimes, and the results may be very bad. But he's going to rely on 
them to learn to make good decisions - and believes they will learn 
best from their mistakes, no matter how many they make.>>

Me:
Which is a Good Thing, as long as people do seem to be learning from 
those mistakes
  Lupin has, and we guess Snape has (unless you think 
he's still evil, of course), and we can hope Sirius & Snape will bury 
the hatchet
 

But, like Debbie says:
<<<But Hagrid fails so spectacularly and so often that it's hard to 
accept Dumbledore's patience.>>

*stands up to applaud Debbie*

Yes!  I really do think there's *something* motivating all this 
patience.  I think Dumbledore has a lot of guilt about Tom Riddle, 
and Hagrid is an everyday reminder of that.  He gives Hagrid chance 
after chance, IMO, because he feels terrible about Hagrid being 
expelled, and about not realizing what Riddle was sooner.  

Keeping him on as gamekeeper—that's one thing.  But after the Fluffy 
incident in particular, I don't think he should be involved with any 
more secret war-type stuff.  I just don't.  I don't think he should 
be a teacher either, but Debbie's given me a good reason to feel 
better about that.

I think Dumbledore has a big blind spot about Hagrid, with Tom 
Riddle's name on it.  And that can't be a good thing.

Caroline
--wondering why, if Dumbledore's such a powerful wizard, he doesn't 
have his own Marauder's Map-type security system so he knows 
*exactly* who's in Hogwarts at all times