Cruciatus and Imperius (Some TBAY), Dark Magic Power Boosts

[ssk7882]

No: HPFGUIDX 40480

I was wondering about Voldemort's assumption that Crouch Jr. would 
indeed agree to play the rather significant role that voldemort had 
allocated to him in his Big Plan.  Having pointed out that Voldemort 
first returns to England, then travels to the Crouch residence, then 
Imperio's Crouch Sr., and only *then* asks young Barty if he is 
willing to serve, I wondered:

> (It does make you wonder, though, doesn't it, what Voldemort would 
> have done if Crouch had said "no?" I mean, *was* there a Plan B?)

Cindy replied:

> Plan B? Well, let's see. Crouch Jr. might say something like, "You 
> know, I've been couped up under this cloak a long time and I was 
> thinking of maybe taking some time *off*, if that's all right with 
> you, Voldemort." 

> Mmm, nah. Not unless Crouch Jr. was hoping to do a dance with the 
> Cruciatus Curse, figuring it might help clear his mind or 
> something. 

Heh.  Well, I admit that it wasn't too *likely* a possibility.  

But still, if you think about it, Voldemort's plan really does count 
on Crouch Jr. for quite a lot, doesn't it?  

It doesn't just rely on him *professing* his loyalty.  I mean, given 
the circumstances, of *course* Crouch Jr's answer to "will you serve 
me once more?" was going to be: "Yes, master, delighted to, just tell 
me what you want me to do."

But the plan doesn't just rely on Crouch's lip service.  It relies on 
him being loyal enough to undertake a difficult and dangerous mission 
without scarpering the instant that Voldemort isn't watching him.  It 
relies on him being competent enough to rig the Tournament.  And it 
relies on him being a clever enough actor to pull off that Moody 
masquerade for an *entire year.*  

It also relies on him not having been reduced to a state of weak-
willed drooling idiocy from having first nearly died in Azkaban, and 
then having spent over ten years under the Imperius Curse.  

I mean, that was really quite a lot to gamble on, don't you think?  
When all that Voldemort really *knew* about Crouch's current status 
was that he was being held prisoner in his father's house, and that 
he still professed loyalty to the cause?  Voldemort travels all the 
way back to *England* on the basis of this information?  

Geez.  It's almost enough to make me want to run out and buy myself 
one of those magic dishwashers.  They may not run on my favorite 
thematic engines, and they do rather clash with all of my genre 
expectations, and George really doesn't care for them very much.  But 
hey.  At least they don't leave *spots* all over the crystal.


I also found myself wondering about Crouch Jr's growing ability to 
throw off the Imperius Curse for short periods of time in the months 
leading up to the QWC.  I suggested that this might be related in 
some way to Voldemort's return to England, that perhaps Voldemort's 
newly embodied state and physical proximity might in some 
metaphysical way have strengthened the will of those servants
bound to him by the Dark Mark.

Cindy wrote:

> But how about an alternative theory? A theory that explains all of 
> the pesky, FLINT-y problems with the Imperius Curse? How about if 
> the Imperius Curse is only as strong as the wizard casting it? 

I'm sure that the Imperius Curse *is* only as strong as the wizard 
casting it. After all, the Cruciatus Curse certainly seems to be.  
Compare Cedric's reaction to being hit by Krum's Cruciatus, for 
example, to Harry's reaction to Voldemort's Cruciatus in the 
graveyard.  Krum's does not seem to be all that powerful.  It
certainly doesn't look as if it was a pleasant experience for poor 
Cedric, mind, but it doesn't incapacitate him to nearly the same 
degree as Voldemort's Cruciatus does Harry, or Wormtail, or even the 
unfortunate Mr. Avery.

> How about if the Imperius Curse is a classic struggle of wills, a 
> clash of power between the controller and victim. 

Again, I think that this certainly is the case.  And there is also 
evidence to suggest that ones ability to resist increases the more 
incentive one has to do so.  Crouch Sr's ability to resist the Curse 
seems to have grown stronger and stronger as the date of the planned 
attack on Harry Potter drew near. I had always assumed, at any rate, 
that the growing urgency of the need to warn Dumbledore was what had 
strengthened his will to resist.

I had also assumed that Crouch Jr's ability to fight it off at the 
QWC was in part due to all of the things going on there that just 
Pissed Him OFF.  Lucius Malfoy in the Top Box, being buttered up by 
Fudge about his donations to St. *Mungos,* of all things.  That 
conversation between Harry and Winky, about *freedom,* of all 
things.  And of course, that tantalizing wand, right in front of his 
very face.


> After all, Mulciber specialized in the Imperius Curse. If all 
> Imperius Curses are the same, why have someone specialize in it?

I don't think that they are all the same.  I agree with you that the 
stronger the caster, the stronger the spell.  I also agree with 
Marina that the stronger the will, the stronger the spell (or the 
chance of resisting it).  In other words, to be very very good at 
Imperius, you want to have two things: a strong will, and a good deal 
of expertise.  To resist it, you want to have one (or both) of two 
things: a strong will, or a freakish inborn talent for it.  


> As far as Crouch Jr. goes, he didn't really get stronger during all 
> those years under the cloak, under this theory. Crouch *Sr.* was 
> getting *weaker*, that's what was going on. 

Youth will be served, eh?

This reminds me very much of a question that somebody (Judy, 
perhaps?) brought up quite some time ago.  Just what *did* old Crouch 
think was going to happen to his son once he passed away, anyway?  
Children do, after all, generally manage to outlive their parents.

> Crouch Sr. was getting more and more discouraged by his failure to 
> win become Minister of Magic, becoming bitter from being shunted 
> aside and forced to work with the likes of Ludo Bagman. And Crouch 
> Sr. was just plain growing older. All of that made young Crouch 
> *relatively* stronger compared with his father, I think, not 
> stronger overall.

Mmmmm.  Possibly.  Possibly.  Although Crouch still had it in him to 
throw off his own Imperius there at the end, didn't he?  And it still 
seems a remarkable coincidence to me that Crouch Jr's new-found 
resistance would seem to coincide so very neatly to Voldemort's
return to an embodied state.


> Cindy (who thinks Pip and her MAGIC DISHWASHER will *not* like the 
> idea that Cruciatus makes a wizard stronger)

Well, no, Cindy.  She won't.  That, you see, is because Pip -- with 
or without her MAGIC DISHWASHER in tow -- is not utterly *deranged.*

I, however, am.  I am therefore willing to entertain the notion, but
only because it has entertained *me.*  Tit for tat, you know.  
Turnabout is fair play.

<pause, while Elkins entertains the notion>

Ah-hah!  I see it now!  *That's* why Pettigrew let Crouch Sr. 
escape!  He knew, you see, that the day was fast approaching when he 
would need to deal with all of those other Death Eaters, right?  So 
he wanted to be sure that this time around, he'd really be able to 
*compete.*

And that's why he was so distressed when Voldemort threatened to feed 
him to the snake, see.  'Cause that wasn't what he was after at 
*all.*  He wanted a good long bout of Cruciatus, that's what he 
wanted.  And hey, he got it eventually, right?

And it also occurs to me that this might put a brand new spin on 
Charis Julia's "Fourth Man With Crucio Competition," which suggests 
that the DEs all compete to try to get their master to punish them 
because it's just so *macho.*  It's not a matter of macho.  It's not 
a matter of macho at all.  It's a matter of pure and simple self-
interest, is what it is.  They all *know,* you see, that What Doesn't 
Kill You Makes You Stronger, and so they're just trying to get the 
advantage whenever they indulge themselves in Stupid Minion Errors.

<short pause>

Okay.  There.  I've entertained it.  It's still an utterly ludicrous 
notion, but I have at least been willing to entertain it.


-- Elkins