[HPforGrownups] Dark Mark and DEs (was:DE Name Origin, & some Dark Mark)

[Edblanning at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 36495

Amanda:
> This feeds in a tiny bit to my theory of the Dark Mark--I think it is more
> than an identifier (it's a lousy identifier, as it seems to be invisible
> most of the time). I think the Death Eaters were the Inner Circle, the true
> believers, and not all followers of Voldemort *were* DEs. And I think the
> bond symbolized by the Mark is far more than it seems. I think it ties the
> Death Eaters to Voldemort for life and more; I think it likely that part of
> 

This 'How visible is the Dark Mark?' thing is a bit puzzling. My 
understanding is that the Marks have been invisible only since Voldy's fall. 
But I find it curious that Voldy examines Wormtail's arm for his ('It has 
come back') in the graveyard, when Snape's and Karkaroff's have been visible 
for some time. It seem to be visible in the latter two cases because Voldy is 
regaining strength, not because he is summoning them: that only happens when 
he touches Wormtail's Mark. That implies to me that during his ascendency, 
they were *always* visible, which as others have pointed out is an 
identifier, not just to each other, but to the Aurors. Is being a DE in 
itself a crime? I suppose they might need evidence of an actual crime being 
committed in order to convict, but I can't see the MoM letting anyone bearing 
Voldy's Mark on his arm walk free.

I totally agree, though, with your opinion of the DEs as the inner circle, 
the true supporters of Voldy. I'm slightly worried about George and Diana's 
opinions on this, but as Diana's spokesperson, I think it is consistent with 
her view of Snape that he would not sit on the fence in any way. In for a 
Knut, in for a Galleon, and all that.

Amanda
It seems his style, to demand such a commitment, and it would guarantee 
> their support of him (you'd think), and it would be a very good reason for
> Snape to look pale or Dumbledore to look anxious at the end of book 4--even
> when you have known for years what you will do, and come to terms with what
> will happen, still, walking out the door to begin steps that will lead, if
> 

Ooh, Amanda....you've made me go all quivery. I might have to go and lie down 
for a bit. I wonder if Elkins still has that brandy?

> This would also explain why Voldemort was so very, very, intensely peeved at
> the Death Eaters in his circle, berating them for leaving him to languish.
> If the Mark is indeed a bond to the death, they all would have *known* he
> was alive somewhere, simply because they weren't dead. And they didn't come
> looking for him. No *wonder* he's a bit irritated.
> 
Yes. Exactly.  A Good Theory. Even if it is rather disconcerting for us Snape 
fans.

Porphyria comments: ( this was originally in italics - I hope they won't 
return - apologies if they do)
>For one thing, after Voldemort disappeared it was disputed whether he was 
dead or >not (according to what Hagrid explains to Harry). You would think 
that if Voldemort >had informed all his Death Eaters that their lives 
depended on his welfare that it >would have become more common knowledge over 
10 years later that he must >have still been alive. After all, there were 
former Death Eaters who were willing, for >one reason or another, to tell 
what they knew about their situation: people like >Karkaroff would give the 
MOM any information they were asked and there were >several spies working for 
Dumbledore, not just Snape. So if the MOM had proof that >Voldemort was still 
alive, I'm wondering why that would have been kept secret 

Eloise:
Well, the DEs would thus have reason for not going as far as betraying Voldy 
himself. 
If they think that he *could* be killed, then they would be condemning 
themselves to death with him, wouldn't they? How tempting for the Ministry if 
they thought they could get rid of Voldy *and* the DEs in one fell swoop.
Dumbledore knew that Voldy was alive - he still had spies at work - (one of 
them later informed him that he was hiding in Albania). Sirius, IIRC, and 
Hagrid certainly never believed he was dead. I'm sure that the Ministry, or 
at least elements in the Ministry, must have acknowledged this. But the thing 
was, he was powerless. The Ministry doesn't seem to have anticipated that he 
could regain his powers. This certainly seems to be Fudge's line. They didn't 
want to believe it, they didn't want to alarm people and upset the status quo 
(as Dumbledore points out in the feast at the end of GoF). As far as they 
were concerned he was as good as dead.
I think the DEs thought that too. 

Porphyria:

>Also, when Voldemort confronts the Death Eaters in GoF, he at least implies 
that >they might have thought he was dead: "And then I ask myself, but how 
could they >have believed I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps I 
took, long ago, to >guard myself against mortal death?" Then he accuses them 
of paying allegiance to >Dumbledore. It seems odd that he would suspect them 
of supporting someone they >thought could defeat him if they all knew this 
would spell their own doom.

Eloise:
I don't think rising again implies rising from the dead. I read it as, 'They 
knew I couldn't be dead, how could they think I wouldn't regain my powers?'
But I agree with your second point, which is more or less what I said above. 
On the other hand, if apparently no-one knew where he was, then even 
Dumbledore couldn't harm him. 

Porphyria:

>I guess also I'd wonder why no other Death Eaters (besides, the Lestranges, 
Barty >and the other guy) tried to seek out Voldemort after his disappeared. 
Surely, if they >all thought their life depended on his that they'd be a 
little more concerned about >his rotting away in Albania or whatever they 
imagined was going on.

Eloise:
They may have anticipated that he *could* be returned to power, but perhaps 
by then they too had had enough - except for the absolute fanatics like the 
Lestranges and Crouch. Otherwise, yes, they should have sought him out. The 
only reasons I can think of for not doing so are either that they thought he 
could no longer give them anything or that they no longer wanted to be in his 
power.

Elirtai:
>As Voldemort himself said, they knew he had learnt to guard himself 
>against mortal death. Now a thought, could they hope to live forever
>through the dark mark too?

Nice one! I like that. Yes...Voldy out of the way, but just alive enough to 
guarantee them eternal life. Why go to the trouble of bringing him back?
You know, I'm almost beginning to feel sorry for him.

Eloise (still basking in the glow of Elkins' praise for her Moody/Imperius 
theory. Thank you! And Jennifer, too!)


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