Real Wizards Don't Apologize & Fourth Man (WAS Crouch Jr and )

[cindysphynx]

No: HPFGUIDX 36556

Elkins wrote:

> Like Eileen, I too find myself wondering if Crouch might not have 
> been telling the truth whenever I contemplate his behavior in 
> Penseive.  

Eileen added:

> When you read the Shrieking Shack scene for the first time, were 
>you 
> feeling it more from Sirius/Lupin's angry POV or Pettigrew's 
> desperately afraid POV? 

My goodness!  What's going on here?  Are you guys starting to -- 
well, there's just no gentle way to say it -- go *Soft* on me?  What 
am I hearing?  Sympathy for Pettigrew?  Doubt about Crouch Jr.'s 
guilt?  What next – Tom Riddle was just misunderstood?

No, I don't think I can sign on for the Pity Party that seems to be 
forming here.  Pettigrew was Evil.  Evil, evil and really evil.  He 
scurried off before he got what he deserved.  Crouch Jr. was Evil, 
too.  I'm not buying the "Help me Daddy, I wasn't involved" routine.  
Nope, not me.

You know why I'm not cutting Pettigrew or Crouch Jr. a break?  
Because neither Pettigrew nor Crouch Jr. is *sorry*.

See, the thing with JKR's characters is that they are very long on 
whining and begging and cringing and flinching and making excuses and 
pointing fingers, but they are very short on offering up heart-felt 
apologies and taking responsibility for things.  Pettigrew never 
expresses any regret at all in the Shrieking Shack.  Sirius never 
apologizes to Snape, Ron or Lupin.  Snape never apologizes to Harry, 
Lupin, or Sirius.  Ron never apologizes to Harry for being a prat in 
GoF or paying off a debt with vanishing gold; Harry never apologizes 
to Ron for bopping him in the head with a badge.  Lupin never 
apologizes to Dumbledore for the werewolf adventures or for his 
hideous errors in judgment throughout PoA.  McGonagall doesn't 
apologize for letting Crouch Jr.'s soul get away from her.  Don't 
even get me started on Hagrid.

So who is the only adult I can think of who gives a real, sincere 
apology at even the slightest provocation?  Avery, that's who.  He 
wastes no time at all offering up an apology at the first possible 
opportunity:  

Voldemort:  "I confess myself disappointed . . . . "
Avery:  "Master! he shrieked, "Master, forgive me! Forgive us 
all!" . . . 
Voldemort:  "*Crucio!*"

And you see where Avery's apology got him.

No, for some reason in JKR's world, real wizards don't apologize.  It 
is apparently OK to say thank you, as Lucius does in the graveyard.  
Wormtail does quite a bit of thanking -- thanking Harry, thanking 
Voldemort.  Groveling also seems to be well-regarded.  But take it to 
the next level and actually apologize, and you'll be sorry.

Now Hermione, she knows how to apologize.  After a bit, she sucks it 
up and admits that Crookshanks ate Scabbers.  But then again, she was 
apologizing for something that never happened.  Like Avery, she 
jumped the gun.  In fact, it is Ron who owes Hermione an apology, and 
I hope she's not holding her breath waiting for it.

Wizards just don't *get* the concept of apologies, do they?

Jamie asked (of Crouch Jr.):

> > It's come up before that maybe he was under the Imperious Curse.  
> > How else could a man who spent most of his adult life in Azkaban 
> > perform such difficult magic unassisted?  
> 

Elkins replied:

> It seems more than likely to me that casting ones lot in with Dark 
> forces really *does* grant one a certain boost in magical power.  
<snip> 
> If this is the case, then it could help to explain Crouch's magical 
> prowess.  We know that he was exceptionally bright to begin with: 
he 
> got twelve O.W.L.S.  

I think we're going to have to bury the notion that Death Eaters are 
weak.  Indeed, there's every reason to believe they are just as 
strong and capable as the Good Guys, even without whatever power 
boost they get from Voldemort.  Crouch Jr. and Riddle were top 
students.  Sirius may have been a top student, but he has, uh, some 
difficulty applying his academic success in the real world.  
Pettigrew has proven himself capable of complex Dark Magic.  (BTW, 
Pettigrew would have gotten top marks at Durmstrang, where they 
actually teach Dark Arts, instead of Hogwarts, where they teach goofy 
subjects like Skrewt Control and Flobberworm Studies).  Mrs. 
Lestrange, based on her few lines in GoF, sounds like someone who 
could take out McGonagall quite handily, leaving nothing but a pile 
of cat fur.

Sure, the DEs were rather impotent in the graveyard.  And whose fault 
was that?  "Do nothing!"  "Stun him!"  "Leave him to me!"  I mean, 
which is it?  Personally, I think the shadows from the wands put one 
of those Shield Charms around Harry to protect him as he ran.  So the 
DEs can shoot straight, thank-you-very-much, and are quite capable 
and strong despite their Indecisive Leader.

Elkins again:

> Because the Fourth Man Theory grew out of a previous "Redeemable 
> Avery" defense, many of the variants on Fourth Man are designed to 
> excuse or to defend his behavior, but if you like him better as a 
> thoroughly venal and villainous coward, then you're free to stick
> with "No-Frills Fourth Man."

Elkins, dear, hand me the "No-Frills Fourth Man" paddle, will you?  
No, not that one.  The really *Big* one.  That's the ticket.  

What's that?  I'm supposed to paddle now?  Oh, no.  I'm not using 
this Big paddle to help row the Fourth Man kayak or anything.  No, 
no.  I plan on picking a serious fight with the other Fourth Man 
passengers, and I need this Big paddle to defend myself.

You see, Fourth Man with Remorse is just, well . . . forgive me, 
but . . . it's kinda lame.  I mean, how can Avery *possibly* have 
remorse?  He apparated to the graveyard, for heaven's sake.  And as I 
established above, no one in the wizarding world has any idea what 
proper remorse is.  Remorse is *not* returning to the side of Evil 
the first time you get a Dark Mark hot flash, throwing yourself to 
the ground to beg forgiveness for not being Evil enough for the last 
decade, tolerating a few seconds of Crucio, and then continuing right 
along in your Evil old ways.  No, Fourth Man with Remorse needs to be 
buried at sea.  He is just excess weight slowing down the kayak.

Although I'm always willing to be persuaded that Fourth Man with 
Remorse can be spared from walking the plank.  Do kayaks even have 
planks?  

Maybe what I really want to see is "In Over His Head No-Frills Fourth 
Man."  In this variant, Avery isn't Evil To The Core.  He just kind 
of aspires to be Evil To The Core, but can't seem to get it right.  
Evil To The Core can't be taught; you either have it or you don't.  
Avery doesn't have a real knack for his chosen profession, but he's 
middle-aged and in too deep to make a career change.  (Not that this 
has ever happened to me or anything).  That way, I can reconcile 
Avery's failure to be Tough with his utter lack of remorse.

Elkins again:

> There's even a "Fourth Man With Innocence," in which Avery, although
> he was indeed a Death Eater, was nonetheless utterly innocent of 
any 
> complicity at all in the Longbottom Affair and was arrested and 
> convicted solely on the basis of guilt by association with the 
> Lestranges.  

I beg your pardon?  Do you mean that Avery is innocent because he 
couldn't muster the strength to actually aim his own wand directly at 
Frank Longbottom?  Avery's Crucio curses were pinging off the walls 
or something, so that makes it OK?  Or do you mean that he's innocent 
because he didn't think up the idea to torture poor Frank before Mrs. 
Lestrange did?  To be innocent, all you have to be is slow-witted?  
Isn't the definition of Innocence getting rather lax under this 
theory?  :-)

Fourth Man with Innocence is crashing against the rocks, too.  Avery 
can't be innocent if he went back to formerly-slimy-baby Voldemort.  
He just can't be.  Can he?

Elkins again:

> Avery himself, although he sometimes shares the kayak with us, 
> doesn't get to express his own opinion on the matter, because he's 
> just an in-jokey parody of somebody else's fictional character, and 
> so doesn't count.  ;^)

Uh.  No.  I specifically recall kicking Avery out of the kayak weeks 
ago, and I don't even see bubbles marking the spot where he went 
down.  He sank like a stone. I think his guilty conscience weighed 
him down.  

Now, if Jamie is brave enough to join us, we're going to have to give 
the kayak to someone else and move up to an inflatable 8-person raft 
with cupholders and an ice chest filled with cold Mimosas.  I seem to 
have some of those Spam cubes left over from the last party on the 
Destroyer, too.  Jake didn't seem to care for them.

Cindy (noting that Arthur Weasley apologizes for blasting the 
Dursleys' living room to bits, but they're just Muggles so he 
probably figured no wizards outside the family would hear about it)