[HPforGrownups] Shack Flints, Snape's motivation

[Edblanning at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 36790

Porphyria:
> For one thing, I think Marina is right about the potion. When we first 
> see Snape deliver the potion to Lupin, Snape makes a point of telling 
> him to drink it up right away. Lupin does, while the goblet is still 
> smoking. That makes me think that the potion has to be drunk while it's 
> still hot or while whatever chemical reaction it's doing is still going 
> on. So taking it to the Shack wouldn't have worked. I agree also with 
> Marina that taking Lupin back to the castle might have been Snape's only 
> option, and that might have been what he intended to do if he'd simply 
> discovered that Lupin had zoned and was just taking a long meditative 
> walk that night. Snape might know exactly when Lupin is supposed to 
> transform, and IIRC there would have been plenty of time to get Lupin 
> 

The trouble with this, as someone pointed out once, is that Snape tells 
Lupin, in the scene where we first encounter the wolfsbane potion, that he's 
made a whole cauldronful, should Lupin need more. Well, OK, perhaps it just 
needs to be *hot*, but surely he could heat it if necessary. Magically 
boiling kettles doesn't seem to be a problem. Or maybe it can't be 
*reheated*, and he's keeping the batch warm in his cauldron, devotedly 
tending it night and day, making sure it doesn't boil dry. You see how I'm 
bending over backwards to try and accomodate you? :-)

Porphyria:
> However, I don't think that Snape imagines that Lupin was going to the 
> Shack just to transform in peace. Cindy says that Snape must imagine 
> this because he has no foundation to believe anything else. I disagree. 
> When Snape arrives at the Shack practically the first thing he says is: 
> "I've told the headmaster again and again that you're helping your old 
> friend Black into the castle, Lupin, and here's the proof. Not even I 
> dreamed you would have the nerve to use this old place as your 
> hideout --" Snape *has* suspected Lupin all along of being in league 
> with Black, and to me this line means that when he saw Lupin making a 
> mad dash for the Shack that he immediately figured he was up to no good. 
> I believe he went to the Shack expecting to find Black there as well.
> 
Eloise:
Yes, so do I.

Porphyria:
> Marina added:
> 
> > This also fits in with hints given earlier in the book that Snape is
> > still afraid of Lupin.  Maybe that fear's been eating away at him,
> > and Snape was actually looking for an excuse to face the werewolf
> > and prove to himself that he no longer needs arrogant Quidditch
> > jocks to rescue him in such situations.
> 
> I like this, although I'm not sure where you see hints of Snape still 
> being afraid of Lupin. I'm totally willing to believe that Snape was 
> trying to redo the past by confronting Lupin and thus redeeming has past 
> 

Eloise:
Marina expands on this in a later post. I'll respond below.
I too think Snape is trying to redeem a past event, but not the same one (see 
below).

I
>  have no trouble believing that Snape would have recognized James's 
> cloak. They are very rare, Snape probably observed James using it when 
> they were kids and he probably knew that Dumbledore wound up hanging on 
> to the cloak to bequeath to Harry when the time came. This all strikes 
> me as reasonable.
> 
Eloise:
I'm sure he's known for ages that Harry is using it. His famous ability to 
put two and two together.

Porphyria:

> 

Eloise:
I'm sorry, but I need help again. What does this mean? Translate, please.

Porphyria:
> OK, since don't want to make a one liner reply to Eloise's recent reply 
> to me, I'll do it here. Darling, I will defer to your version of SUCCESS 
> if you let me have my way defending Snape's actions on Shack night. :-) 
> Any chance of a deal? What if there's a fifth of single malt in it for 
> 
?

Eloise:
So you think I'm the kind of girl who can be bought with a drink, do you?   
:-)
Well, since you've been so kind as to purchase a bottle of my favourite 
tipple, why don't we break it open and settle down to discuss things? I'm 
sure in a couple of dram's time, our differences won't seem so great!

Now am I right to think that the difference is this? You suggested that 
Snape's motivations on going to the Shack are ....how do I put 
this.....altruistic - either to prevent Lupin's  transformation into a 
dangerous werewolf, or to protect Harry and everyone else from Sirius. I on 
the other hand suggested that his reasons are personal, to do with wanting to 
catch Lupin and Sirius out of revenge. Is that the core of the problem?

OK. Well, I did admit that I think he does have those higher motives tucked 
away somewhere. The thing is that Snape operates on several levels 
simultaneously, with different layers of motivation. He *does* want to 
protect Harry and everyone else from Black. That's part of his role as a key 
member of Dumbledore's team and that role and the trust that Dumbledore 
places in him are very important to him. But I think he also has personal 
motivation.

Now, before we go any further, Porphyria my dear, I'd like you to come over 
here and look at this can(n)on that I captured from the opposition. I think 
they've forgotten about it as it doesn't seem to have been fired recently, 
but it looks a bit dangerous. Have a look at the writing on the side. No! 
don't say it out loud! ... Quietly then,

" 'Vengeance is very sweet,' Snape breathed at Black. 'How I hoped I would be 
the one to catch you...' "

Now to me, that's pretty unequivocal. This is *personal*. Vendetta time. But 
I think if we work quickly, I think we can disable this particular cannon 
before they realise it's missing and send in a raiding party to reclaim it.
Why does Snape want revenge on Sirius?

(Eloise and Porphyria are forced to cover their ears as a great shout goes up 
on all sides)

No, No, NO!!! How many times do I have to tell you? It is NOT the dratted 
Prank.

You see Snape believes, truly believes, that Sirius Black is the one who 
betrayed the Potters. He's wrong. We know that, but he doesn't; even 
Dumbledore doesn't. As far as Snape's concerned, he's in league with 
Voldemort and he betrayed his best friend to him.
What was Snape doing at the time? Working against Voldemort. More 
specifically, we believe from the canon hints, he was trying to *prevent* 
James and Lily's deaths.
So it *is* personal. There was Severus, trying to protect this guy he 
detested and his wife who- well insert your own version of things here - and 
Black thwarts him. On one level (remember, this is Snape of the several 
layers) he's prevented him from repaying the life-debt he owes James - 
permanently. On another level, here was his opportunity to really *prove* 
himself, to do something really worthwhile for the Light side and it's 
snatched away from him. There he was, doing something he really didn't want 
to do, but doing it out of principal and loyalty, as part of this new-found 
ethical existence he was trying to come to terms with and Black smashes his 
efforts to smithereens.
So there *is* revenge. Well, Snape himself tells us that, but it's revenge on 
several levels. 
There's a personal revenge against the man who prevented him from repaying a 
life-debt.
There's a possibly even bigger personal revenge against the man who thwarted 
his efforts to do something great for the Cause.
And there's a non-personal revenge. The revenge of the righteous man against 
the evil doer, of the wizard on the Light Side against the Dark enemy.

So yes. Assuming that he believed that Lupin was aiding Sirius, Snape had a 
lot of reasons for going up to the Shack.  I'll agree that they some of these 
were entirely honourable and I certainly think that  the personal motives 
were deep, not just a petty desire for retribution. ther. Are we still 
friends?

Marina explains why she thinks Snape is afraid of Lupin:

>Mainly in the scene where Snape brings the potion to Lupin's office
>while Lupin and Harry are talking.  I don't have my copy of PoA handy,
>so I can't cite it exactly, but I thought Snape's behavior in that
>scene is rather striking.  He seems very tense; he's described as
>"unsmiling and watchful"; he does not produce a single sneer or
>sarcastic remark; his eyes dart around the room; and he backs out of
>the room, which to me implies that he was unwilling to turn his back
>on Lupin.  All of which adds up to make me think that, at the very
>least, Lupin makes Snape *really* nervous.

It *is*rather striking, isn't it? Until now, I had put his behaviour down to 
his finding Harry with Lupin somewhat putting him off his stride. He's 
probably got a nice string of sarky remarks worked out which he suddenly 
found himself unable to use in front of a student (Sorry, Porphyria. We may 
know better, but can't we admit that the Snape JKR portrays quite often just 
isn't very nice?). 
But the backing out. He knows Lupin's not in danger of transforming, so what 
is it? Does he think he might hex him or something? Or does he just think 
that where Potter is, there must be trouble? Wondering what they're up to? 
>From his POV, Lupin's already colluded with students against him in the 
boggart incident. Perhaps he's expecting them to play a trick on him. Denting 
to the pride. I don't know. But an interesting point, Marina. Even more 
interesting to me is your suggestion that Snape wanted to prove himself. I do 
think this is a *big* motivational factor where he's concerned.
Now I know the poor man is not entirely in control of his actions. Somebody 
seems to be manipulating him a little, I feel, in order to forward the plot. 
Nevertheless, what *should* he have done when he saw Lupin disappearing 
towards the Whomping Willow on the Map?
Given the situation and the fact that he was likely to meet not only a 
werewolf, but a dangerous, wanted man whom the MoM needed a bevy of trained 
Hit Wizards to contain, shouldn't he have gone to Dumbledore? With the Map 
(the map that Dumbledore is still in the dark about a year later).
But our Severus doesn't do that, does he? He goes off by himself. Just like 
he went to head Quirrell off from the Stone by himself. Just like he takes it 
upon himself, and himself alone, to protect Harry from Quirrell during 
quidditch matches. He has problems with being a team player in these 
important things. Why?
I think it's all down to a thirst to prove himself. I think he needs to prove 
himself worthy of his place at Dumbledore's side. Whether he craves the 
approval of others, I'm not sure, though I believe it likely. I certainly 
think he wants recognition.

Eloise


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