[HPforGrownups] Shack Flints, Snape's motivation

[Porphyria]

No: HPFGUIDX 36797

About Snape taking or not taking Lupin his potion, I wrote:

> > That makes me think that the potion has to be drunk while it's
> > still hot or while whatever chemical reaction it's doing is still 
> going
> > on. So taking it to the Shack wouldn't have worked.

And Eloise replied:

> The trouble with this, as someone pointed out once, is that Snape tells
> Lupin, in the scene where we first encounter the wolfsbane potion, that 
> he's
> made a whole cauldronful, should Lupin need more. Well, OK, perhaps it 
> just
> needs to be *hot*, but surely he could heat it if necessary. Magically
> boiling kettles doesn't seem to be a problem. Or maybe it can't be
> *reheated*, and he's keeping the batch warm in his cauldron, devotedly
> tending it night and day, making sure it doesn't boil dry. You see how 
> I'm
> bending over backwards to try and accomodate you? :-)

Well I really don't want you to hurt yourself over this. Unless you're a 
Yoga expert, in which case, feel free. But I was observing that Snape 
made a point of telling Lupin to "drink that directly." And given that 
we do know this potion is complicated to made and fragile enough that 
the addition of sugar neutralizes its effects, I don't think it's 
necessarily a stretch to assume that some elaborate, last-minute thing 
has to be done to it to it before it's drinkable, and that it's a 
million times easier for Snape to do this in his lab rather than 
conjuring up a bunch of supplies on location. A whole cauldronful in 
reserve doesn't preclude this; perhaps the last-minute prep is a lot 
more complicated than just reheating it. If I had any background in 
organic chemistry I could probably think of something better than 'it 
needs to be hot.' I'm not sure the potion even smokes for this reason; 
the goblet keeps on smoking even after the stuff is drunk, so maybe it's 
some magical process that makes it smoke in the first place. Then again, 
maybe Snape does have a long-lasting 'keep hot but don't boil dry' spell 
cast over the cauldron.

I'm thinking of my long history of mixing frothy Margaritas; you can 
have a store of the mix, but they have to be drunk right after they're 
shaken or, like souflees, they fall. (I did say I had no background in 
Organic Chem, didn't I?)

<snip several things we agree on>

> Porphyria:
>
> >
>
> Eloise:
> I'm sorry, but I need help again. What does this mean? Translate, 
> please.

Am I being asked to translate a blank line? I think the missing sentence 
had to do with Flints. Flint=minor mistake. Flinty=bedeviled by tiny 
plot holes. Forgive me if I've misunderstood your question.

> Porphyria:
> > OK, since don't want to make a one liner reply to Eloise's recent 
> reply
> > to me, I'll do it here. Darling, I will defer to your version of 
> SUCCESS
> > if you let me have my way defending Snape's actions on Shack 
> night. :-)
> > Any chance of a deal? What if there's a fifth of single malt in it for
> >
> ?
>
> Eloise:
> So you think I'm the kind of girl who can be bought with a drink, do 
> you?  
> :-)

It's always worth a try and I was planning on mooching part of it off 
you once you got it open anyway.

> Well, since you've been so kind as to purchase a bottle of my favourite
> tipple, why don't we break it open and settle down to discuss things? 
> I'm
> sure in a couple of dram's time, our differences won't seem so great!

See, we might not even need to drink anything to get there:
>
> Now am I right to think that the difference is this? You suggested that
> Snape's motivations on going to the Shack are ....how do I put
> this.....altruistic - either to prevent Lupin's  transformation into a
> dangerous werewolf, or to protect Harry and everyone else from Sirius. 
> I on
> the other hand suggested that his reasons are personal, to do with 
> wanting to
> catch Lupin and Sirius out of revenge. Is that the core of the problem?

Not exactly. Maybe we should hold off on the Scotch for a bit. :-) My 
original post #36596 was arguing against Cindy's claim that the *only* 
thing motivating Snape that night was the desire to get Lupin fired. I 
began by referencing Amanda's claim that "Nobody over the age of three 
has truly single-minded motives." (I actually didn't quote it, but I 
should have.) I finished that paragraph by stating "It's a very 
complicated set of motives and it's not fair to say he had one and only 
one reason to go after Lupin." In the middle I said a whole bunch of the 
same things that you go on to say, mainly that he thinks Black is the 
one who betrayed the Potters, he's really much more upset about that 
than the Prank, and most of all it's hard to separate his vengeful 
motives from his altruistic ones. We really agree wholeheartedly. But in 
post #36724 I thought you might have been accusing me of being blind to 
his faults, and I don't believe I am. I think I'm admitting to them. In 
that post you said "I'm rather afraid that at that point his primary 
motivation, his *conscious* motivation, was simply to get his own back 
on Lupin, and Sirius too, if possible." And at this point we are 
completely splitting hairs, but I'd just say that Snape might be a 
little too proud to admit that *part* of his primary motivation is 
redoing a traumatic past, and it's much easier for him to take the 
attitude "Vengeance is very sweet...How I hoped I would be the one to 
catch you..." (I have no fear of their peashooter canons.) Of course 
Snape is acting tough here. That's what he does. And of course for him 
the personal and altruistic are inextricably linked. I never argued that 
his motives were pure, just not all selfish.

> So yes. Assuming that he believed that Lupin was aiding Sirius, Snape 
> had a
> lot of reasons for going up to the Shack.  I'll agree that they some of 
> these
> were entirely honourable and I certainly think that  the personal 
> motives
> were deep, not just a petty desire for retribution. ther. Are we still
> friends?

I hope so. I'm still eyeing that Scotch.

> Marina explains why she thinks Snape is afraid of Lupin:
>
> >Mainly in the scene where Snape brings the potion to Lupin's office
> >while Lupin and Harry are talking.  I don't have my copy of PoA handy,
> >so I can't cite it exactly, but I thought Snape's behavior in that
> >scene is rather striking.  He seems very tense; he's described as
> >"unsmiling and watchful"; he does not produce a single sneer or
> >sarcastic remark; his eyes dart around the room; and he backs out of
> >the room, which to me implies that he was unwilling to turn his back
> >on Lupin.  All of which adds up to make me think that, at the very
> >least, Lupin makes Snape *really* nervous.
>
> It *is*rather striking, isn't it? Until now, I had put his behaviour 
> down to
> his finding Harry with Lupin somewhat putting him off his stride. He's
> probably got a nice string of sarky remarks worked out which he suddenly
> found himself unable to use in front of a student (Sorry, Porphyria. We 
> may
> know better, but can't we admit that the Snape JKR portrays quite often 
> just
> isn't very nice?).

When did I get to be the one arguing that Snape=Leo Buscaglia? Yeesh! If 
only you knew how much I appreciate his sarcasm. But I actually have to 
agree with Cindy here, what she wrote in post #36771 in which she 
concludes "The comparison between Snape's conduct with Moody versus 
Lupin suggests that Snape isn't the least bit afraid of Lupin, I'd say." 
For once I can say Cindy is dead on about Snape. :-)

Snape probably has at least two things on his mind when he delivers the 
potion to Lupin. The first is, I think, the one you originally thought 
of. Finding Harry there derails his train of thought. He probably wanted 
to say something like "Look, Lupin, I've been studying the Lunar Charts 
and I think you might need to have another dose or two before the full 
moon, otherwise your transformation might go rough..." Then he walks in 
and finds Harry there, and he has to stiffen up because, at this brief 
instant in time, he's still trying to honor Dumbledore's request to keep 
the secret. So he has to try to tell Lupin what's on his mind without 
letting drop any major hints at Harry. But that's not all that throws 
him.

> But the backing out. He knows Lupin's not in danger of transforming, so 
> what
> is it? Does he think he might hex him or something? Or does he just 
> think
> that where Potter is, there must be trouble? Wondering what they're up 
> to?

Yeah, I'd say Snape is definitely wondering why the Werewolf has Harry 
in his office with the door shut. I don't think for a second Snape is 
worried about his own safety. I think he's wondering what Lupin's 
designs on Harry are. I have to say that if a killer escaped from 
prison, he was overhead threatening to head for the school I taught at, 
he was universally rumored to be out to kill one of my students, and lo 
and behold the headmaster just happened to have hired the escapee's old 
friend as another professor? I'd be thinking the same thing Snape is. 
I'd be worried. He's tense and cagey and his eyes are wandering between 
Harry and Lupin because he's taking in evidence. This happened right 
before Halloween when Black did make his way into the castle, and it 
wasn't too long after that that Snape took over the DADA class and 
assigned his infamous essay. I'd say his finding Harry taking tea with 
Lupin was just another example of Lupin's suspicious behavior and his 
reactions were the same sort of 'calculating' attitude we've seen him 
take elsewhere.

I'll end by quoting this...

> Given the situation and the fact that he was likely to meet not only a
> werewolf, but a dangerous, wanted man whom the MoM needed a bevy of 
> trained
> Hit Wizards to contain, shouldn't he have gone to Dumbledore? With the 
> Map
> (the map that Dumbledore is still in the dark about a year later).
> But our Severus doesn't do that, does he? He goes off by himself. Just 
> like
> he went to head Quirrell off from the Stone by himself. Just like he 
> takes it
> upon himself, and himself alone, to protect Harry from Quirrell during
> quidditch matches. He has problems with being a team player in these
> important things. Why?
> I think it's all down to a thirst to prove himself. I think he needs to 
> prove
> himself worthy of his place at Dumbledore's side. Whether he craves the
> approval of others, I'm not sure, though I believe it likely. I 
> certainly
> think he wants recognition.

...because it's just so well put. Yes! We agree! And just to make it 
clear, I do agree that a lot of his motivation consists of trying to 
redeem himself for his past, to prove himself trustworthy again. It all 
makes much more sense after GoF.

~~Porphyria


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