[HPforGrownups] Shack Flints, Snape's motivation

[Edblanning at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 36804

IPorphyria:
> About Snape taking or not taking Lupin his potion, I wrote:
> 
> > > That makes me think that the potion has to be drunk while it's
> > > still hot or while whatever chemical reaction it's doing is still 
> > going
> > > on. So taking it to the Shack wouldn't have worked.
> 
> And Eloise replied:
> 
> > The trouble with this, as someone pointed out once, is that Snape tells
> > Lupin, in the scene where we first encounter the wolfsbane potion, that 
> > he's
> > made a whole cauldronful, should Lupin need more. Well, OK, perhaps it 
> > just
> > needs to be *hot*, but surely he could heat it if necessary. Magically
> > boiling kettles doesn't seem to be a problem. Or maybe it can't be
> > *reheated*, and he's keeping the batch warm in his cauldron, devotedly
> > tending it night and day, making sure it doesn't boil dry. You see how 
> > I'm
> > bending over backwards to try and accomodate you? :-)
> 
> Well I really don't want you to hurt yourself over this. Unless you're a 
> 

Eloise:

Me? Yoga? No, no, got the wrong girl there. I went riding for the first time 
in two weeks yesterday and if you *knew* how much I ache.....!

Porphyria:
But I was observing that Snape 
> made a point of telling Lupin to "drink that directly." And given that 
> we do know this potion is complicated to made and fragile enough that 
> the addition of sugar neutralizes its effects, I don't think it's 
> necessarily a stretch to assume that some elaborate, last-minute thing 
> has to be done to it to it before it's drinkable, and that it's a 
> million times easier for Snape to do this in his lab rather than 
> conjuring up a bunch of supplies on location. A whole cauldronful in 
> reserve doesn't preclude this; perhaps the last-minute prep is a lot 
> more complicated than just reheating it. <snip>

Good point. You win!

> > Porphyria:
> >
> > >
> >
> > Eloise:
> > I'm sorry, but I need help again. What does this mean? Translate, 
> > please.
> 
> Am I being asked to translate a blank line? I think the missing sentence 
> had to do with Flints. Flint=minor mistake. Flinty=bedeviled by tiny 
> plot holes. Forgive me if I've misunderstood your question.

Eloise:
Well done, got it in one!  Where did it go? It wasn't blank when I posted it! 
Thank you.

<snip whether we need to resort to whisky>
>> 
> > Now am I right to think that the difference is this? You suggested that
> > Snape's motivations on going to the Shack are ....how do I put
> > this.....altruistic - either to prevent Lupin's  transformation into a
> > dangerous werewolf, or to protect Harry and everyone else from Sirius. 
> > I on
> > the other hand suggested that his reasons are personal, to do with 
> > wanting to
> > catch Lupin and Sirius out of revenge. Is that the core of the problem?

Porphyria:
> Not exactly. Maybe we should hold off on the Scotch for a bit. :-) My 
> original post #36596 was arguing against Cindy's claim that the *only* 
> thing motivating Snape that night was the desire to get Lupin fired. I 
> began by referencing Amanda's claim that "Nobody over the age of three 
> has truly single-minded motives." (I actually didn't quote it, but I 
> should have.) I finished that paragraph by stating "It's a very 
> complicated set of motives and it's not fair to say he had one and only 
> one reason to go after Lupin." In the middle I said a whole bunch of the 
> same things that you go on to say, mainly that he thinks Black is the 
> one who betrayed the Potters, he's really much more upset about that 
> than the Prank, and most of all it's hard to separate his vengeful 
> 

Eloise:
I'm so glad

Porphyria
> post #36724 I thought you might have been accusing me of being blind 
> to 
> his faults, and I don't believe I am. I think I'm admitting to them.

Eloise. 
I'm sorry. I'm not a Real wizard, so I can say that :-).No accusations 
intended. It was my own fear of having my Snapefan credentials attacked that 
motivated that, I'm afraid. You see, there does seem to be a strand of 
Snapefandom that *does* go through contortions to try to justify everything 
he does and says. I won't do that. We won't do that, I should say. 

Porphyria:

> that post you said "I'm rather afraid that at that point his primary 
> motivation, his *conscious* motivation, was simply to get his own back 
> on Lupin, and Sirius too, if possible." 
> 
Eloise:
Oh flobberworms! I was hoping you wouldn't bring that up. You see, I realised 
afterwards, when I thought about it, that I was simply *wrong* there. I think 
his conscious motivation was more likely to be his 'Dumbledore's right hand 
Man ridding the world of the Evil Black and his lupine accomplice 
motivation'. At least, that's what he'd tell himself.

Porphyria:

> completely splitting hairs, but I'd just say that 
> Snape might be a little too proud to admit that *part* of his primary 
> motivation is 
> redoing a traumatic past, and it's much easier for him to take the 
> attitude "Vengeance is very sweet...How I hoped I would be the one to 
> catch you..." (I have no fear of their peashooter canons.) Of course 
> Snape is acting tough here. That's what he does. And of course for him 
> the personal and altruistic are inextricably linked. I never argued that 
> his motives were pure, just not all selfish.
> 
Eloise:
> > So yes. Assuming that he believed that Lupin was aiding Sirius, Snape 
> > had a
> > lot of reasons for going up to the Shack.  I'll agree that they some of 
> > these
> > were entirely honourable and I certainly think that  the personal 
> > motives
> > were deep, not just a petty desire for retribution. ther. Are we still
> > friends?

Porphyria:

> I hope so. I'm still eyeing that Scotch.

Eloise:
Erm...can someone remind me what  we were disagreeing about again?

> > Marina explains why she thinks Snape is afraid of Lupin:
> >
> > >Mainly in the scene where Snape brings the potion to Lupin's office
> > >while Lupin and Harry are talking.  I don't have my copy of PoA handy,
> > >so I can't cite it exactly, but I thought Snape's behavior in that
> > >scene is rather striking.  He seems very tense; he's described as
> > >"unsmiling and watchful"; he does not produce a single sneer or
> > >sarcastic remark; his eyes dart around the room; and he backs out of
> > >the room, which to me implies that he was unwilling to turn his back
> > >on Lupin.  All of which adds up to make me think that, at the very
> > >least, Lupin makes Snape *really* nervous.
> Eloise:
> > It *is*rather striking, isn't it? Until now, I had put his behaviour 
> > down to
> > his finding Harry with Lupin somewhat putting him off his stride. He's
> > probably got a nice string of sarky remarks worked out which he suddenly
> > found himself unable to use in front of a student (Sorry, Porphyria. We 
> > may
> > know better, but can't we admit that the Snape JKR portrays quite often 
> > just
> > isn't very nice?).

Porphyria:

> When did I get to be the one arguing that Snape=Leo Buscaglia? Yeesh! If 
> only you knew how much I appreciate his sarcasm. 

Eloise:
Sorry, projecting, again. I can identify with sarcasm.

Porphyria:
> agree with Cindy here, what she wrote in post #36771 
> in which she 
> concludes "The comparison between Snape's conduct with Moody versus 
> Lupin suggests that Snape isn't the least bit afraid of Lupin, I'd say." 
> For once I can say Cindy is dead on about Snape. :-)
> 
Eloise:
She is, isn't she? Remarkably perspicacious. I don't see any signs of fear 
anywhere else.


> <snip discussion of why Snape behaved as he did in Lupin's office>


Porphyria:
>  Yes! We agree! And just to make it 
> clear, I do agree that a lot of his motivation consists of trying to 
> redeem himself for his past, to prove himself trustworthy again. It all 
> .

Do you think it's just trying to *redeem* himself? I wonder if it goes back 
further than any actual wrong-doing. You see, my version of Snape's childhood 
is almost identical to Catlady's ( msg no 36663), except that I don't 
envisage him at primary school. (Why bother if you've got the governess?) 
Parents are such a stong theme in the series. I always envisage him having 
the kind of father for whom he could never do well enough. No matter that 
he's top in Potions, no matter that he's on the Slytherin Quidditch team ( 
it's speculation, before someone objects!), no matter how many OWLS and NEWTS 
he gets, he never gets the recognition he deserves, let alone wants. So he 
can either give up trying, or spend the rest of his life looking for that 
recognition. 

Just a thought. Now, let's get out that whisky again....

Eloise



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