Death and Justice

[talondg]

No: HPFGUIDX 36997

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "lucky_kari" <lucky_kari at y...> wrote:


> The Ring is the ultimate corruptor. It turns even the heroically 
> virtuous to evil in the end. In that sense, you are right. If one 
> continues with the Ring, one is not responsible for what happens.

But note that the Ring is an outside influence, active in its own
right. It has its own sort of intelligence and agenda _besides_ the
corruptive nature of the power it offers.

People have done evil things for corruptive influences - money, power,
fame, drugs - but nobody's suitcase full of money is conciously
attempting to control them. Nobody's suitcase of money is *alive* in
the way the Ring appears to be.

The Gollum -> Wormtail analogy falls down on this point. Gollum is
swept along under the influence of the Ring. He resists from time to
time, but the Ring is stronger than him, and ultimately lays claim to
him.

Wormtail, however, is the victim of naught but his own choices. He's a
willing participant. He could stop and atone at any time, but he
doesn't want to.

> > > "If they had killed him, many other people wouldn't have died", 
> > > since they couldn't have known (the plan was to imprison him, 
> > > not let him go free). 

> > They DID know. They had steeled themselves to the task at hand 
> > (taking any life, even one as deserving of death as Wormtail, is 
> > never a casual decision) and were about to do the deed when Harry
> > stepped in.

> At the time, Lupin and Black were faced with the alternatives of 
> 1) killing Pettigrew and 2) handing him over to the authorities. 
> Neither of these alternatives was difficult to 
> carry out. Nevertheless, Lupin and Black plan to do the first. There 
> was no question of Wormtail causing more future deaths at this 
> point. The possibility does not even enter these men's minds.

I strongly disagree. The possibility that Wormtail was about to wreak
further havoc was what motivated Sirius to escape from Azkaban, and
Lupin's understanding of what happened on that fateful night convinces
him, too, that Wormtail is too dangerous to live. They have him NOW,
and they intend to deal with him. They intend to ensure that he will
cause no further harm. 

A live and in custody Wormtail will clear Sirius' name. A dead
Wormtail might, but is less likely to do so. Sirius could use Wormtail
to suit his own ends, but he has no intention of doing so. Sirius
wants him _neutralized_, even at the risk of his being sent back to
Azkaban.

> O.K. Let's put it this way. Tomorrow morning you wake up and you see
> a wanted murderer with a gun and some dynamite on your back lawn. 
> Given that he's a very dangerous person, would you be justified in 
> shooting and killing him with your hunting rifle? Sure. I don't 
> think anyone would disagree, though it might be considered more 
> prudent to run out the front door and let someone else deal with it.

If I recognise him, and I see he is carrying weapons that exert deadly
force, then it is my RESPONSIBILITY to take him out before he can do
whatever it is he's planning on. If I fail to act, he may kill someone
before "someone else" can come deal with him.

(If I see no weapons, then I'm not justified in using deadly force, or
indeed any force at all. In that case, I'd notify the authorities and
then try and keep him under observation until they arrive)
 
> However, consider that you look out your backwindow and see the 
> wanted murderer lying unconscious on the lawn in a pool of blood, 
> unarmed. Would you be justified in shooting and killing him with 
> your hunting rifle? 

That really depends on the situation. Who is he? What has he done?
What was the nature of his crimes? What's the context?

I note, however, that whoever he is, he is extremely unlikely to
transform ito a rat and scamper off, or suddenly vanish in a puff of
smoke. There's also a distinct lack of Evil Overlords running around
for him to revive.

The stakes are not as high in your example. He is less likely to be
able to escape, and less likely to be able to do harm if he does, for
most reasonable instances of human beings.

But let's tweak the example a little bit. At the risk of invoking
Godwin's law, let's pretend that 1) I'm French 2) my yard is in France
3) It's 1941 and 4) that's Adolf Hitler lying unarmed in my backyard. 

Changes things, doesn't it?

DG