Death and Justice

[talondg]

No: HPFGUIDX 37042

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "lucky_kari" <lucky_kari at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "talondg" <trog at w...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "lucky_kari" <lucky_kari at y...> wrote:

> > But note that the Ring is an outside influence, active in its own
> > right. It has its own sort of intelligence and agenda _besides_ 
> > the corruptive nature of the power it offers.

> And Voldemort doesn't?

No, not in the same sense.

The Ring's influence is of a similar nature to an Imperius Curse, in
so far that it is a magical influence that makes people do what they
would not otherwise do. It's more subtle - it's not like the Ring is
possesing people outright and forcing them to march to Mordor - but
it's still an influence that has no parallel in the "real" world.

This makes the Ring doubly corruptive: it has the corruptive nature of
all elements that bring great power (in this way, it does have an
analogue in the "real" world) but it also has this magical nature that
buttresses the "natural" effect.

Serving Voldy has the "natural" corruptive nature of power, but (as
far as we know) Voldy has never used the Imperius Curse on a Death
Eater to force him to obey. Death Eaters do what they do of their own
free will.

Wormtail may whine and make excuses a lot, but it's pretty clear that
everything he does is of his own will. "The flesh of a servant,
willingly given"

> > I strongly disagree. The possibility that Wormtail was about to 
> > wreak further havoc was what motivated Sirius to escape from 
> > Azkaban, and Lupin's understanding of what happened on that 
> > fateful night convinces him, too, that Wormtail is too dangerous 
> > to live. 

> That's not how Lupin and Black see the situation. They do not see 
> Pettigrew as a threat. And he shouldn't have been, if they were just
> a wee bit more careful. 

I disagree. You've fallen for Wormtail's act. He _wants_ everyone in
the Shack (and you, as the reader, are in there with him) to think
that he's harmless, and pitiful, and deserving of mercy, when really
he's a scheming, traitorous snake who is plotting how to get loose
even while he cries and begs for mercy.

As evidenced by his immediate escape at the first opportunity.

> > > However, consider that you look out your backwindow and see the 
> > > wanted murderer lying unconscious on the lawn in a pool of 
> > > blood, unarmed. Would you be justified in shooting and killing 
> > > him with your hunting rifle? 

> > That really depends on the situation. Who is he? What has he done?
> > What was the nature of his crimes? What's the context?
 
> Why would that matter? I don't see how his deserving death factors 
> into your own behaviour. 

(We're starting to depart from the Wizarding World here, aren't we?)

It doesn't. It's not a question of his "deserving death" - in our
society, that's a question for the courts. It's a question instead of
determining how much immediate danger is posed to myself and my
neighbors. In our society, in order to justify the use of deadly
force, there must be a clear risk to human life if it is not
immediately applied.

So if Mr Wanted Murderer came home one day, found his wife in bed with
another man, and killed them both in a fit of rage, then he's not
likely to be slinking around looking for another victim.

But if he's more like Hannibal Lecter, who kills often and without
remorse (often on a whim) well... perhaps a pre-emptive shot to a
kneecap is in order, just to make sure....
 
> > But let's tweak the example a little bit. At the risk of invoking
> > Godwin's law, let's pretend that 1) I'm French 2) my yard is in 
> > France 3) It's 1941 and 4) that's Adolf Hitler lying unarmed in my 
> > backyard. 
> > 
> > Changes things, doesn't it?

> 2) makes this a faulty parallel to the Shrieking Shack situation. As 
> has been pointed out many times before, there was no reasonable 
> expectation on anyone's behalf that Pettigrew would be able to 
> escape.

And I disagree with this asessment. Wormtail had proven to be a very
slippery rat indeed, and unlike Hitler, has access to resources above
and beyond the "natural". That there is revenge and payback involved
just sweetens the pot.

It's difficult to find examples of real people who are so compellingly
dangerous that they deserve immediate termination on sight. Hitler
fits. I suppose one might be able to make the case for Napolean too
(decidedly less evil, but like Voldy he DID return from exile to bring
another round of wars - I wonder sometimes if Hitler had not comitted
suicide and had escaped, if he would be able to pull of the same feat)

But wizards are another matter. Wizards have access to powers well
beyond human experience. A true psychopath with access to the magic of
even a first-year Hogwarts student would be a truly frightening thing
in the Real World, and a full-fledged wizard with access to the Dark
Arts (like Wormtail) is horrifying - not just to us Muggles, but other
wizards as well.

No wonder justice in the Wizarding World is so harsh; they have little
choice. Even their best, truly horrifying prison seems awfully porous.
 
> However, it being Adolf Hitler... does that change anything? No. 

Really?

Let's say you have a time machine, and a really big gun, and you're
going T-Rex hunting (bonus points to those that recognise the
reference!)

You pull the handle, and step out not into a Jurassic jungle, but
instead into a bedroom lit bright by a full moon streaming through the
window. A calendar on the wall says "1938" and sleeping there in the
bed is unmistakeably Adolf Hitler.

WWII hasn't happened yet. The Holocost hasn't happened yet. The pain
and suffering of twelve million people hangs in the balance. All you
have to do is take the shot.

You wouldn't do it?

DG