MoM, Nimbus, Fate, Voldemort, Potters' house, Other books

[Amy Z]

No: HPFGUIDX 37126

GulPlum wrote:

>On the other hand, the usage (Ministry *OF* Magic - Muggle terminology 
>would make it the Ministry *FOR* Magic) would indicate that the MoM has 
>evolved separately from the rest of the political system

Now, this is just the kind of thing we non-Brits don't get unless someone 
points it out.  In the U.S. edition, it's Minister OF Magic and Ministry OF 
Magic, conforming to U.S. usage (that is, in the U.S. the equivalents are 
Secretary and Department, but it's always OF, never FOR.  Department of 
State, Secretary of the Treasury).  But, you see, when we read the UK 
editions it says Minister FOR Magic but Ministry OF Magic, and I assumed 
that that reflected British usage; I had no clue that JKR was doing anything 
unusual with the MoM.

Durned if I can wring any significance of it, but you're doing an impressive 
job at it.

***

Jenett wrote:

>In the schools I've gone to, it's quite common for there to be *some* 
>discretionary funds that teachers or faculty can use or apply to use for 
>various reasons.

Your argument that spending discretionary money on something like a broom 
has precedent is convincing, but when you talk about the students who get 
laptops at your school, you're talking about students whose parents can't 
afford to buy them for them.  Harry's rich.  Why doesn't McGonagall sidle up 
to him and say "You're going to need a really good broom to be 
Seeker--here's the order form" and let him pay for it himself?

(I agree, GulPlum, we're scraping the bottom of the barrel fussing about 
such things, but <whining> what else can we dooooooo?  It's so loooooong 
'til OoP.)

***

Pippin wrote:

>I don't think JKR subscribes to the "one man" theory of history. Look what 
>she has Harry say when Hagrid blames himself for giving away Fluffy's 
>secret:

>"Hagrid, he'd have found out somehow, this is Voldemort we're talking 
>about, he'd have found out even if you hadn't told him."
>There's also Dumbledore's words to Harry when he blames himself for letting 
>Pettigrew get away.

>"The consequences of our actions are always so complicated, so diverse, 
>that predicting the future is a difficult business indeed..."

>The implication is that eventually, with or without Wormtail, Voldie would 
>have found some way to come back.

<snip>

>Since Harry believes, as Hagrid does, that Voldemort's return was 
>inevitable, . . .

Hm.  The opposite of the 'one man' theory is not 'everything that happens is 
inevitable.'  Nor do I think Harry was sure Voldemort would come back.  He, 
along with Ron and Hermione, is "shocked" when Hagrid says "knew he was 
going ter come back" at the end of GoF (37).  Harry has feared it since 
Pettigrew's escape, but he doesn't go through 4 as if he thinks Voldemort's 
eventual return is inevitable.

I think it's hard for us to realize just how shocking Voldemort's return is 
because we're reading a dramatic work, not living in Harry's world, and so 
*we* know it's going to happen.  It has to, dramatically speaking.  But 
Harry is living a real life, in which one imagines the worst happening but 
holds out hope that it won't.

Dumbledore's suspicion of divination is not at all in the spirit of 
"whatever is written in the stars will happen and all we can do is wait for 
it to unfold," but rather in the "we can't predict the outcome of our 
actions with certainty."  Otherwise the flavor of that scene in PA would be 
one of "nothing you do makes any difference"--but Dumbledore doesn't believe 
that at all.  Harry saved Sirius and Buckbeak and created a debt between him 
and Peter; or, to shift from a utilitarian to a Kantian perspective, he 
acted out of his own morality rather than trying to secondguess the 
consequences.  He acted like James (or like he thinks James would have, 
affirmed by others):  with honor, courage and integrity.

>. . . he is not likely to think, well, if Pettigrew hadn't brought him back 
>none of this would have happened. Instead he'll think, well, I and my 
>friends are alive because I did what my father would have done.

And one hopes, with time, he'll think, "well, whatever else comes of it, I 
did what my father would have done."  I'm not suggesting that we can shut 
our eyes to the actual *consequences* of our actions, but Harry is learning 
a tough lesson:  no matter how nobly you act, you cannot guarantee that the 
outcome will be good.  This doesn't obliviate moral decisionmaking nor 
reduce human choice to a toss of the dice.  It just makes things a lot 
scarier.

***

I really love the Voldemort antichrist stuff.  I have nothing to add to 
David, Dicentra, Caius and Eloise's eloquence, but just want to applaud you 
for turning an offhand remark of mine into a solid theological point--and, 
of course, a kick-ass filk <g>.  (I also agree with Boggles that 
resurrection and sacrifice are universal, not solely Christian, themes.)

Dicentra wrote:

>Anyway, I don't think that there are many parallels between
>Voldemort's following and a sect (cult did you mean?) because there's
>quite a bit missing.  The usual criticism of cults is that one
>charismatic person is bamboozling a lot of gullible people out of
>their lives and property (emphasis on property) and that they've lost
>the ability to think for themselves.  Cult leaders accomplish this
>primarily by isolating people on a compound and designating it a
>Utopia where We The Chosen will make our paradise.

Ah, but Voldemort has one power that the most ardent Muggle brainwasher 
lacks: the Imperius curse.  It's true that his followers are not, and don't 
appear ever to have been, isolated from the rest of their society (and I 
would note that not all cults engage in this actual physical separation), 
but in addition to the Muggle tools of torture, psychological pressure, 
charisma, etc., he has the literal ability to overcome his followers' will.  
Some people can resist it, but as we see in GF, they are rare.

***

Catlady wrote:

>The house at Godric's Hollow in which James and Lily were living in hiding, 
>until it was blown up as a result of Voldemort's attack on the Potters, was 
>a Muggle house.

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear about my confusion <g>.  I understand why a 
House-Elf might not be attached to a Muggle house (though if their 
connection is to the house, not the owner, as George implies, then they 
might well be lurking in many a Muggle manor).  What I don't understand is 
where we get the idea that James and Lily lived in a Muggle house.  All we 
know about it is that it belonged to a witch and wizard, was in Godric's 
Hollow (which sounds like a historically wizarding village, or the 
connection to Gryffindor is just a wild coincidence) and (going by the 
Celluloid that Must Not Be Named) looked like, well, a regular house except 
that the baby's mobile had owls on it.  Since we haven't seen wizard houses, 
we have no way of judging whether the Potters' house was unusual for the WW.

***

JKR published PS in 1997, so she couldn't have been ripping off Colfer, 
since Artemis Fowl was first published in 2001.  (As for the other way 
around:  Colfer could have been ripping off JKR, though I haven't heard any 
real striking similarities.)  Platform 13 was published in 1994, which makes 
a ripoff extremely unlikely if JKR did begin work on her series in 1992, but 
it's possible.  (She can't be lying about taking five years to outline the 
series and write PS, she just can't be.  If she could write as fast as 
ripping off Ibbotsen would require, we'd have had OoP months ago . . . <g>)  
Wizard's Hall, which does predate PS, is a sweet book with various 
similarities, though Yolen and Rowling have very different styles and their 
main characters are radically different.  I don't see any more overlap 
between WH and PS than between any two of any number of kids-who-are-magical 
books throughout literary history.

Amy Z
who wants to know where the Lego taker-aparter was when *she* was little and 
couldn't get the bricks apart

---------------------------------------------------------
"=Wow!=" said Dennis, as though nobody in their wildest
dreams could hope for more than being thrown into a
storm-tossed, fathoms-deep lake and pushed out of it
again by a giant sea-monster.
                           -HP and the Goblet of Fire
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