Wizarding World law/ Fourth Man

[elfundeb at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 38353

Eloise commented, on lawyers in the WW:

The WW seems to have a rather medieval way of going on about things. I 
wouldn't on that basis expect lawyers (at least, not defence lawyers) in our 
modern sense, but I would expect that the accused might have some kind of 
supporter, a 'prisoner's friend' sort of thing. There presumably has to be 
some kind of mechanism by which the accused can defend himself, call 
witnesses,etc, which would be pretty difficult from inside Azkaban.

I agree; I see no evidence whatsoever of legal advocacy in the Pensieve 
trials, nor in Hagrid's defense of Buckbeak.  In fact, I'm not so sure the 
defendants in the Pensieve had the right to call witnesses on their behalf at 
all.  That seems to have been a prerogative of the Council, though it's hard 
to tell since the trials are not consistent with one another.  Basically, it 
seems that once evidence is presented against someone, that person will be 
convicted unless someone speaks up for that person or he/she presents 
convincing mitigating/exculpatory testimony himself, like Bagman's 
spectacularly successful defense, "I was a bit of an idiot." 

Cindy said:

I suppose that possibly they were not tried, as happened 
in Sirius' 
> case, but I have always supposed, on the basis of the Bagman scene, 
that the 
> evidence had already been heard.

Crouch opens his statement to each of the defendants with "we have heard the 
evidence against you."  Of course, if "we" means only the council, then maybe 
the defendants weren't even present.

Cindy adds: 


> I have never been able 
> to make sense of that scene.  I actually find it rather FLINT-y.
> 


Agreed!  And one of my biggest problems, the reason I see all these trials as 
a grand Inquisition is that there seem to be no rules, and in particular any 
rules on how -- or whether -- the defendants may present evidence in their 
defense.   Here's a rundown on the accused of which we are aware:

Bagman -- didn't get to present witnesses to support him, but apparently had 
two opportunities to testify in his own defense, as Crouch asks if he has 
anything to add to his testimony.  (I've wondered if JKR really meant to have 
Crouch ask if he had anything to add to the testimony he had heard.)

Crouch Jr. & Co. -- were allowed to hear the testimony against them, but were 
not permitted, at least from what we're shown, to testify on their own 
collective or individual behalf.  (Crouch starts with the same sentence as 
with Bagman, but didn't follow up with an offer.)  And Crouch all but 
demanded that the jury send them straight off to Azkaban for life.  I can 
hear the Queen of Hearts in the background all through this scene, screeching 
"Sentence first -- verdict afterward!" 

Sirius -- they didn't bother with a trial at all, so he had zero opportunity 
to defend himself, though maybe Fudge presented evidence to the council that 
made them decide to just leave him in Azkaban to rot.

Snape -- we don't know if it came to a trial, or if Dumbledore's testimony on 
his behalf ended the matter before it came to that.  But I don't have the 
sense that Snape arranged for Dumbledore to testify.  I would expect 
Dumbledore to have done that on his own accord.

So, it seems that the way to escape Azkaban is to have allies who are part of 
the process of the tribunal.  

Cindy:

Maybe the delay in the release in OoP is being used to get these 
legal details correct this time around?  :-)  

If there are to be any further legal proceedings, JKR will need advice, 
either from a lawyer or a historian whose specialty is the Salem witch trials.

Cindy, on her new Tough Guy Fourth Man:, "based on Avery's successful plea 
that his fellow DEs should receive mercy."  


> I think Avery could well be Strong and Tough and Committed.  Willing 
> to take one for the team.  Willing to take one good long Cruciatus 
> Curse if it will spare his men the same.  Avery isn't a SYCOPHANT at 
> all.  He's a Tough guy.  A hero among DEs, in a twisted "working for 
> 

[snip]

> Well, Tough Guy Fourth Man is also quite smart.  Number Two guys in 
> the Evil Overlord organization are *always* smart, aren't they?  He's 
> not going to shoot off his mouth in the Pensieve scene.  How does 
> that do Voldemort or anyone else any good?  No, Fourth Man is already 
> plotting his release from Azkaban on an Imperius defense.  So he 
> knows anything he says can and will be used against him.  Tough Guy 
> Fourth Man is downright cagey.  Cunning, really.
> 
Based on the graveyard scene, I'd agree.  Avery shows himself to be quite 
Tough in the graveyard.  And shrewd.  He knows how Voldemort operates, that 
he'll use someone as an example to the others.  Throwing himself forward and 
volunteering is a great preemptive strike that might save him later from 
further personal torture that he knows Voldemort will inflict on the others; 
we see Voldemort reward Pettigrew just a moment later.  Only, unlike 
Pettigrew, he doesn't wait until he's out of options before taking the pain, 
so he registers much higher on the bravery scale. 

> Or could it be that Avery is the head DE?  After all, he doesn't just 
> plead his own case.  In the middle of this little display, he 
> shrieks "Forgive us all!" 

Avery as Head DE?  He's a contemporary of Snape's, which would have given him 
only a couple of years out of Hogwarts before Voldemort's fall.  That's not 
too short a time to rise that far in the ranks?   Though he could still be a 
Young Turk DE, I suppose.  Either way, to have come so far so fast he 
probably  would have to have started working for Voldemort before he left 
Hogwarts.  

But someone who's too young for Top DE can still have a very important role.  
What's the perfect job for a student DE?  How about the recruiter?   Wouldn't 
it make sense for the recruiter to be an insider?   Whoever the recruiter 
was, he got quite a stellar group to sign up in that gang of Slytherins.  
Rosier, who fought to the death.  The hard-as-nails Mrs. Lestrange, who (in 
Cindy's words) took a bullet for her co-defendants, and her husband.  Wilkes, 
also dead in Voldemort's cause.  And Snape, who's smarter than all the rest 
for having defected. 

Actually, Avery's actions post-release don't look too good compared to what 
his contemporaries did.  No wonder he was down on his knees so fast in the 
graveyard, after seeing all those empty spaces.  I think  Avery's embarrassed 
that all his buddies (except Snape, of course), acquitted themselves much 
better than he did in the loyalty department. 
 
So I can accept Tough Guy Avery, Up and Coming DE Avery, Cunning Avery.  But 
I've been having trouble with the Fourth Man part of it.  I like the idea of 
Fourth Man being someone mysterious hanging around at the edges of the story. 
 But Avery has some problems here that I'm trying to work through here:

1.  If Avery's so smart, why didn't he raise Imperius during his first trial? 
 Did he really just not want to look bad next to the Really Tough Lestranges? 
 Somehow, I think that if you've got a defense you think you can pull off, 
you don't wait until after you're convicted and in prison to try it.    

2.  Has anyone expounded on just how Avery was supposed to have been sprung 
from Azkaban after being convicted?   (I could not find any such discussion 
in the archives.) It seems unlikely that the MOM, given its taste for 
convictions and disregard for due process, would have been particularly 
interested in appeals from convicted DEs, regardless of the unfairness of the 
tribunals.  Even after some time had passed, the wounds inflicted by 
Voldemort and the DEs on the wizarding populace are still readily apparent -- 
most wizards can't even say his name.  I imagine they would like to keep all 
the convicts locked away forever.  Nothing in the Pensieve trials indicates 
that they'd be interested in giving someone a second trial.  Even if they did 
do such things, surely Avery couldn't have claimed that new evidence had come 
to light, since a person seems to be aware of the imposition of the Imperius 
Curse (witness Harry's class).  I think it would be tough for a convicted DE 
to sell an Imperius defense.  Unless, of course, he got someone really clever 
to raise an appeal based on the fact that the defendants were not allowed to 
testify on their own behalf.  Also, Sirius could be wrong about how Avery got 
off (and it could be as it's based on what he heard). In that case, he 
could've gotten out the way Karkaroff got off -- by making a 
freedom-for-information deal.  Otherwise, to be sprung, Avery needs one of 2 
things - either a legal advocate - something I've seen no sign of - or  
someone with money and connections on the outside, and someone who can be 
bought on the inside.   

3.    If someone went to all this trouble to get Avery out of Azkaban, 
shouldn't he have done something in return for it?  Even Lucius attempted to 
revive Tom Riddle.  (There's another question I have -- did Pettigrew not 
tell Voldemort of this episode?  Surely he was aware of it if he spent his 
time with Ron?)  Avery, it seems, has not repaid his debt - after all the 
help he got -- by going in search of Voldemort.  And why the sudden change of 
heart?  For someone who continued bravely on after Voldemort's defeat, then 
goes to the trouble of getting sprung from Azkaban (presumably with outside 
help), he seems to have gotten an enormous case of cold feet.  Possibly a 
short stint in Azkaban convinced him that he'd better wait for a sign that 
Voldemort was still alive before risking capture again.
> 
But wait a minute.  If (i) Sirius is wrong, and Avery sleazed out of Azkaban 
some way other than Imperius, or (ii) he got a retrial because the Council 
got remorse about forgetting to get testimony from Crouch & Co. (after Crouch 
had "died" perhaps), or (iii) corruption prevailed in the Ministry, and (iv) 
a small taste of Azkaban was enough for Avery to give up his pursuit of 
Voldemort, then Fourth Man Avery makes sense.

Cindy:

So what is the yard-stick by which success as a DE is 
measured?  Voldemort seems to think it is loyalty.  But I'm not 
sure.  To the extent Voldemort has gotten hacked off at his DEs, it 
is incompetence that sets him off, maybe even more than simple lack 
of loyalty.  

I think loyalty, or more accurately lack of faith in him (another religious 
parallel here) is how he measures the DE's.  Those present were all 
unfaithful, and can make it up only by doing penance, LOTS of it.  

After all, all of the DEs in the graveyard were disloyal 
and left Voldemort to drift along as a vapor for 13 years or so.  
Didn't bother them one bit.  But Voldemort doesn't torture them, one 
by one.  No, he tortures Avery (as head DE?).  The other torture of a 
DE we see is Wormtail, who is tortured for incompetence (letting 
Crouch Sr. escape).

Everyone else will get theirs; I am sure of this.  They will pay in hideous 
ways, as Wormtail has paid.  Voldemort will make Avery's Cruciatus look like 
a frolic in the park.  This is why I think Avery is smart.

Cindy:

Now, where did this idea come from that invoking the Imperius Curse 
as a sham defense is cowardly?  

Well, the defense itself isn't cowardly.  Voldemort's rap on Lucius, for 
example, isn't that he claimed Imperius.  It's that the only reason for doing 
that is to devote your life to finding and resurrecting Voldemort and neither 
he nor Avery did so.  

Eloise (about Wormtail severing his hand):

>The most noble and 
> self-sacrificing thing we've seen a DE do so far is Wormtail 
cutting off his 
> hand and not everyone thinks even *that's* Tough. (For the record, I have 
to 
> agree with the person who said that they couldn't do it if their 
>life 
> depended on it.) 

Cindy:

Well, it freaks me out to push back my cuticles, so I feel safe 
predicting I'd have trouble hacking off limbs.  But that's just me.

But that's the difference between you two and Pettigrew.  You are Tough but 
noble.  You wouldn't hack off your hand for Voldemort even if you knew the 
price for refusing was death.  Pettigrew made the easy choice, which is why I 
think it was not brave.  What if your hand got stuck in a door as it was 
being shut to prevent deadly poison from escaping, and opening the door to 
release your hand would cause you and your companions to be overcome with 
poison gas.  Would you do it then?  Even if you were wearing a gas mask?  I 
thought so.  That would be brave.

And finally, I just discovered that Charis Julia has provided a raft of new 
and exciting Fourth Man variants, including:

> 7) Backstabbing Fourth Man:
> 
> Now. How do you think the Longbottom's Cruciators were caught, huh? 
> Ahhh, that's right. Clever Grownup. Got it in one. Avery pulled a 
> Pettigrew. He turned them in. That's how he got off light, you 
> understand. Cut a deal with the Ministry.
> 
This seems to fit my first alternative around my Fourth Man legal issues.  
And Charis Julia thought she was joking!

Debbie, who ran across a tax case today involving - no joke - Crouch and 
Pettigrew.  Is it possible that among their other sins they have not 
satisfied their obligations to the wizarding revenue authorities?



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