Cheese... Ambition.. Ron... Hermione... Harry...

[heiditandy]

No: HPFGUIDX 38738

This is a catchrest post and thus I'm going to divide it into 
sections, so you can skip to one, or at least know when I'm 
transitioning from one line of thought to another:

Prelude: Cheese and the "classic" paradigm
Queen of Slytherin wrote:
> Oh I digress. A love triangle may be a bit interesting, but it is 
> not exactly the best plot out there. It is overused and so much 
like 
> Dawson's Creek. And as I said in a previous post, it is tacky, 
> mediocre, melodramatic, and soap-operatic. 

And Jo wrote:
> I also hope that no inter-trio romantic triangle develops -- what 
> a cheap, cheesy development that would be

I'm going to reiterate Penny's wonderful (although not completely 
complete :) list of "Classics" which contain a very low level of 
cheese, right here:

<<Ah, yes. Acknowledge literary classics have *never* used love 
triangles. 
:::cough::: Little Women, Jane Eyre, Tale of Two Cities, David 
Copperfield,
Tom Jones, Emma, A Passage to India, Paul Scott's "Raj Quartet" -- 
just to name
a few. Yeah, great literature never uses anything so silly & cliched 
as a love triangle. >>
I went out last Thursday with some other HP fans and we discussed 
literature which doesn't contain love triangles and we came up wtih 
the following:
Billy Budd
Moby Dick (not a love triangle, at least)
Animal Farm (ah, orwellianism!)
various Sherlock Holmes stories 
Their Eyes Were Watching God
Hamlet
The Old Man & The Sea

And a few other classics which do have 'em: Lolita, Scarlett Letter, 
Gone with the Wind, the Little House on the Prarie series (later 
books), The Three Musketeers, Les Miserables and 1984. Any longer 
lists should probably find their way to OT Chatter.



1. The nature of friendship
I've been amazed at all the different descriptions of friendship 
that have come over the list in the past few days. I have a bundle 
of wonderful friends in Real Life, and count among that number guys 
and girls who I've been friends with since we were in college over 
ten years ago - and yes, I was friends with guys all the way through 
growing up - some of those guys I had crushes on, others, I didn't. 

And everyone sees the friendship among Harry and Ron and Hermione 
through that prism - and I'm not saying I am any different. I see it 
as a friendship where each person brings things to the table, but 
also, the same way we were discussing Dumbledore's (IMHO OOC) 
decision to change from Slytherin to Gryffindor during the Leaving 
Feast in Book 1, certain things are done for literary purposes, not 
because they would necessarily have happened that way in the real 
world. Furthermore, we don't see their day-to-day interactions, 
again, for literary purposes, and thus there are huge chunks of 
their relationships that we just don't know about in the same detail 
that we know these - of course, the "rules" of literature make it 
clear that we know the important things in their lives, the 
conversations and things which make an impact on their characters. 

B wrote: 
> Hermione has always struck me as the type who enjoys having her 
ideas 
> challenged, if for no other reason that it gives her the 
opportunity 
> to prove herself right. Like many of us on this list, I don't 
think 
> Hermione would bother 'giving back' to Ron if she wasn't on some 
> level enjoying herself in the process. 

I think B is right on this assessment, although I don't agree at all 
with Jo when she said: 

> There's 
> certainly no reason she couldn't just walk away from Ron when 
their 
> arguments get heated.  She never does, though, and it seems very 
> important to her that she stay engaged in the conflict until it 
> blows itself out. 

Clearly, Hermione loves a good debate, and she (like, um, me) 
doesn't let debates about things which she cares about, but which 
are, to some extent, not personal to her (like the house elves 
issue, or some prejudice issues, or even homework) affect her 
enthusiasm for debating them.

However, when Ron's comments get really mean and nasty and personal, 
like they did at the Yule Ball, she does walk right away from him.

"Ron," said Harry quietly, "I haven't got a problem withHermione 
coming with Krum-"
But Ron ignored Harry too.
"Why don't you go and find Vicky, he'll be wondering where you are," 
said Ron.
"*Don't call him Vicky!" Hermione jumped to her feet and stormed off 
across the dance floor, disappearing into the crowd.
Ron watched her go with a mixture of anger and satisfaction on his 
face.
*************
Satisfaction?
That he made her cry?
And he's *satisfied* by that?
What a mean and obnoxious thing to do! What a horrible thing to 
feel! How dare he?

I think this scene is very evocative of Hermione's feeling that when 
Ron gets too pushy and too mean, she will just walk away. And of 
course, even people who are married occasionally push each other too 
far - sometimes over stupid things like where in the baby's room 
will the bambi rug go, but other times, people really get on each 
others' cases about more monumental things. 

And perhaps it's just me, but I can see why someone could deal with 
debates about world issues, art, musical tastes (my husband hates 
90% of what I love, and vice versa, for example), or which weekly 
newsmagazine to get, but be unable to respond to a personal attack 
in any way other than leaving the conversation. (side note - I think 
no discussion of the ron&hermione conversation in the common room 
afterwards can ignore the fact that the last time they'd talked that 
evening, she'd run off crying, but that's for another post.)

I also think that it's easy to say that Hermione could just end her 
friendship with Ron if it stressed her too much, but it's very hard 
if not impossible for her to actually do that for various reasons. 
First, she would lose a lot of Harry. While I think that their 
relationship is balanced at this time, if she suddenly decided that 
she wanted to move away from her friendship with Ron,  then Harry 
might be in the same situation he was in in Book 5, in terms of 
having to spend time with them separately (and yes, there's an 
indication in Book 3 that off the page, he talks to Hermione to try 
and get her to talk with Ron) and that would naturally reduce the 
amount of time she could spend with him. There's also an implication 
that she's friends with Ginny outside her friendship with Ron & 
Harry. If she had a falling out with Ron, would she feel so 
confident that her friendship with Ginny would survive it?

When friends are so intertwined, it's hard to pick up threads of 
other friendships if the ties to one friend change radically. Of 
course, i don't think she really does want out at this point - but 
if she did, she'd spend a lot of time thinking the implications 
through.

Dave wrote:
> He is not forced to spend time with Ron because he has 
> fallen out with Hermione - Harry has never truly fallen out with 
> her.  It's not hard to imagine that if Hermione was refusing to 
talk 
> to him he would also find Ron relatively dull.

Not necessarily, but Harry certainly felt incredibly antisocial even 
when he was walking around Hogsmeade with Ron - hence his use of the 
invisibility cloak. If he was only friends with Ron, I think his 
personality would be developing differently - he'd be more inclined 
to slack off, to play instead of to get things done, and to 
disregard rules just for the sake of enjoyment, like he did by going 
to Hogsmeade that day. 

2. The rules of attraction
Dave wrote:
> At the same time, they have very different 
> perceptions of what is important in life, and of the right way to 
> act.  I believe their bickering stems from their unwillingness to 
> acknowledge the value of this difference;  instead, they are 
engaged 
> in a continual power struggle over their two world-views.  This is 
> expressed in arguments about, for example, how homework should be 
> tackled.
> 
> *However*, the fact that they engage in this power struggle is one 
of 
> the main indicators to me that there is more to their 
relationship.  
> Why doesn't Hermione just give up on Ron's attitude to homework?  
Why 
> doesn't Ron accept Hermione's attachment to the library?  Each of 
> them wants to be responsible for the other in a way that, IMO, is 
> uncharacteristic of friendship that is happy with the state it's 
at.

I don't really understand the last sentence. What do you mean a 
friendship that's happy with the state that it's at? How can there 
be such a thing among teenagers, who are learning and growing and 
changing every day? Their personalities are developing, their 
focuses are changing - even their interests can change as they 
discover new things. 

And there's nothing wrong with trying to convince your friends that 
something is missing in their lives. I mean, how many of you have 
NOT tried to get one friend - one family member - one colleague - to 
read the HP books? On OT Chatter here, people are always posting 
about new books, evangelizing about movies, saying You Must 
See/Try/Do this! That's what a sig file is for - you put links to 
your fanfics, or your website, or your FILKs, to encourage people to 
look them over. And you do this so your friends will be happier 
people, once they've discovered the wonderful thing you enjoy so 
much. 

Does that mean we're not happy with our online or our RL friendships 
as they are? Or does it mean we want to make others happy by leading 
them to try/do/see things they wouldn't try/do/see otherwise?

3. The concept of "dating"

Queen of Slytherin wrote:
> C'mon, in real life, it's awkward enough to date one of your best 
> friends, then break up with that friend, then go on and date your 
> other best friend, who happens to be also one of the best friends 
of 
> your ex.
Too true. I spent part of this weekend at my reunion, which was also 
attended by a classmate (call her R) who married her ex-best-
friend's ex-fiance. It's a difficult situation for everyone, believe 
me. But R also had 3 dates with the man who is now my husband, and 
that hasn't caused anyone any angst. Another friend of mine is 
married to a wonderful guy (also a friend of mine) despite the fact 
that before they got together, she'd dated two of his fraternity 
brothers, and he'd dated one of her good friends. No awkwardness at 
all. And these aren't rare situations - it happens all the time in 
colleges (which are similar, in "interactions", to Hogwarts, on 
various levels) and in social circles where people move in a group 
together. 

I actually think it's incredibly realistic and no more soap opera-y 
than real life.


4. A fine romance
Pippin wrote: 
> IMO,  it won't matter if  Hermione gets elected 
> Minister of Magic, discovers the cure for dragonpox, wins the 
> Order of Merlin and chases a Snitch  through London naked on a 
> broomstick at the age of 75. If H/H happens  the Daily Prophet  
> will still bill her as Harry's partner. Somehow, I don't think 
she'd  
> be really happy about that <g>

Why not? What parts of her characterization, to date, make you think 
she wouldn't be happy about it? 

Penny wrote:
> Hermione, OTOH, isn't *currently* going to be too willing to 
>sublimate her
> own ambitions & successes to pacify an insecure boyfriend.

I am a little confused by Penny's language here as it was 
interprited by others, and if I am misdescribing it, please correct 
me.

When Penny says "sublimate" she means in the relationship between 
the two - Hermione and her Partner. In other words, she wouldn't 
allow herself to strive for less or work harder outside the home, 
she wouldn't let herself become less of a professional in whatever 
line of work she chooses, just to make her partner happy. And Ron's 
insecurities might lie along those lines, whereas Harry's won't. 
Harry's ego won't be deflated every time Hermione breaks through 
another glass ceiling or pulls another accolade. He won't be angry 
if she makes prefect and he doesn't. Ron, otoh, might.


5. The reasonable solution?

Draco/Hermione. 

No, don't laugh. Go read Pride & Prejudice instead, remember that 
Draco, as we've seen him, is 14, possibly quite bright, occasionally 
witty and possibly redeemable. And if... and if... And if he follows 
in the footsteps of Fitzwilliam Darcy, he'll be a better match for 
Hermione, as Elizabeth Bennett, than anyone else could be. Yes, I 
admit it's a big if... but they've both got a bit of growing up to 
do, and it could happen. 


And as a side note, Ron's ambition:

> If being Head 
> Boy were really his ambition, he'd be working toward that, which 
he 
> clearly is not.  What DO we see him working hard at?  Finding out 
> about the Philosopher's Stone, finding out about the Chamber of 
> Secrets, helping Harry prepare for the second and third tasks of 
the 
> Tournament.  Are any of these things likely to get him fame and 
> glory?  

Barb answered herself by saying, "No."

I, OTOH, say, "Absolutely!" 

What better way to become Head Boy than to help save the world a few 
times? Especially if a decision is made to not have Harry as Head 
Boy, who else are they to choose? Draco? Possibly, but the strongest 
competition for the role, if Dumbledore is one of the decision-
makers, would be Ron. We don't know exactly how Head Boy is chosen, 
but it seems that while grades are part of it, it's unlikely that 
they're the whole reason behind the choice. Furthermore, it's a very 
reasonable way to become famous and get glory - Ron learns that 
lesson, if he didn't know it already, after the second task, when he 
gets a kiss from Fleur just for helping Gabrielle out of the water, 
and where he's a center of attention among his fellow students. Even 
Padma is more interested in him after that. It's glorious. It's a 
bit of fame. And if he does something really wonderful, like help 
Harry, even from the background, in defeating Voldemort, he'll have 
fame, and possibly fortune as well. What a great thing for Ron and 
his ego!

heidi tandy

follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, 
sizes and SHIPS - 7 sickles an ounce!
http://www.fictionalley.org