Fights within the Trio; Equality (Trio); Sexism; Tough Hermione; Love Triangles; Ambition

[Penny Linsenmayer]

No: HPFGUIDX 38767

Hi --

Am going to try & combine some here (and hope I remember to change the subject heading to reflect what I've done) --

EMOTIONAL IMPACT OF FIGHT WITH HERMIONE VS. FIGHT WITH RON -- 

Okay, I'll concede that he doesn't seem as bothered by being on the outs with Hermione & having Ron as a friend as he is when he's not speaking to Ron but has Hermione as a friend.  OTOH, I note that in POA, *both* Ron and Harry were not friends with Hermione.  They were a united front.  As the R/H shippers have noted time & time again, supposedly Hermione was attempting to intercede between Harry and Ron during their fight during GoF.  So, she may not have been 100% available for Harry, leaving Harry *alone* and with time to be utterly miserable.  Contrast that with POA, where Harry was without Hermione but he had 100% of Ron's attention.  Mind you, I've never been too clear on exactly *when* Hermione was spending time with Ron during the Harry/Ron fight (since she was in class with Harry, eating meals with Harry, in the Library with Harry (much to his misery), etc.).  But, if the R/H'ers are right & she was spending some of her time, especially if she was somehow (?) spending equal time with Ron, then Harry was left alone considerably more than he was when he & Ron weren't speaking to Hermione in POA.

I also think, though this is a smaller argument, that there *is* a certain amount of adolescent boy at work in the POA fight that might be less present if he were to have a falling-out with Hermione in Book 5 or later.  

EQUALITY WITHIN THE TRIO --

Amy said:

<<<I also just like to see a strong friendship between an adolescent boy and girl.  That would still be there, of course, even if Hermione were 
*distinctly* secondary.  What's particularly nice is seeing a 
friendship among two boys and a girl in which all three pairs of ties 
are equally strong--and that's where Penny and I seem to part ways.>>>>

:::looks confused:::  Did we part ways?  I thought we were in agreement on that score.  Perhaps I can clarify ....

I said:> But, I do think JKR has gone out of her way to 
> demonstrate that Harry has *two best friends.*  I'm just ... 
> just ... just *astonished* that anyone would suggest a prioritizing 
> within the Trio.  

Amy responded:

<<<<<You mean like thinking that Ron and Hermione aren't as close as Ron 
and Harry or Harry and Hermione?  ;-)

The same wish that makes me want to see Hermione and Ron as equally 
close to Harry makes me want to see Hermione and Harry as equally 
close to Ron, and Ron and Harry as equally close to Hermione.  I'm 
rather surprised to hear that you of all people share this wish, 
Penny.>>>>>>>

Well, I do.  Definitely.  I don't *think* (wracks brain ... yeah, pretty sure I've never said this) that I've ever said anything to the contrary.  I do think Ron & Hermione have a genuine friendship (though I do think they bicker an inordinate amount and I would *personally* find this distasteful and tiresome, both in a friendship and in a romance).  I do think the ties between Ron & Hermione are just as strong as between Harry & Hermione.  Or as between Harry and Ron.  And, I like that.  I want that to be true.  If there are any romance pairings within the Trio, do I have a preference as to which 2 would be best-suited to pair off?  <vbg>  Why, yes, I do.  But, as for the straight friendship angle, I dislike the idea that there are stronger & weaker ties within the Trio.  What I have argued against is the notion that the R/H shippers have put forth now & again that every moment when Harry is by himself, Ron and Hermione are together (engaging in witty repartee!).  I just don't think there's sufficient canon evidence to support this.  But, I don't think I've ever questioned that R/H have a genuine friendship.  Perhaps people have confused my positions on this.

SEXISM -- I noted that one of my objections to the idea of prioritizing within the Trio is that it seems sexist to me.  It does.  I'm not sure I can explain more specifically what I mean .... other than to say that's my gut reaction, be that as it may.  

I'm exactly the same age as JKR (well, actually she would have graduated a full year ahead of me I believe because of her July birthday & school cut-off dates).  But, she grew up in basically the same era as I did, and if things are even remotely similar in the UK, then she no doubt had very close friendships with males while she was an adolescent and a college student.  Well, we know she did, because her best chum from high school is the basis for Ron.  Thus, I would find it "odd" if her intent was to portray Ron as being the closer friend to Harry. . . since that would "seemingly" be because they're both male, which calls into some question the validity of (or her attitude towards) male-female platonic friendships.  IMO.

<<<<Incidentally, one could read both quotes as yet more suggestions that 
in her heart of hearts JKR thinks of Ron as Harry's bestest best 
friend, which makes it hard to see GF 20 as just a case of sloppy 
editing.  But I'll be charitable and assume that she's borrowing kids' 
language and assumptions, especially because she frequently refers to 
them as Harry's two best friends in interviews, or refers to one or 
the other as "Harry's other best friend.">>>>>

I'll put on my lawyer hat and say that the *preponderence* of the evidence supports the notion that JKR regards Ron as Harry's "best friend" and Hermione as Harry's "other best friend," and that sometimes she regards Hermione as Harry's "best friend" and Ron as Harry's "other best friend."  How's that?  <g>

TOUGH HERMIONE -- 

I agree with all of Dicey's evidence on why Hermione is Tough.  I might have been rash in asserting that Hermione is "alot tougher" than Ron.  <g>  But, she is Tough.  At least as Tough as Ron.  And the weepiness doesn't bother me a bit.  In fact, I could do with alot more weeping really, truth be told.  I think Harry needs to cry (and not just choke up & wish that Ron wasn't there).  

LOVE TRIANGLES -- 

Jo Serenadust said:

<<<<<<<However, in each of the examples you name, the love triangle is an 
intergral part of the plot.>>>>>>

Like Heidi, I can't agree with that assessment, but it'd be OT to go into too much detail.

<<<<<Harry Potter isn't about romantic relationships between the main characters (no matter how much some listmembers seem to want it to be).  It's mainly about the battle 
between good and evil, with the coming of age of Harry in the WW as 
the background.  Any romantic stuff is there as either comic relief, 
or PART of Harry's growing up process.>>>>>>>

Has JKR confirmed that any romance will be strictly comic relief?  I don't think so.  We don't know where the plot is going ... not for certain.  Or, at least, *I* don't want to go on record as predicting that....not with JKR's propensity for plot twists.  

<<<<<<<To throw in a triangle would 
IMO detract from the main theme of the story and therefore I still 
maintain would be cheap and soap-operaish, and JKR is much too good 
a writer to even *want* to do that (IMO, of course).>>>>>>>>>

I think if JKR has planned it & is writing it in, it'll be done "right."   

AMBITION & THE WIZARDING WORLD --

I said:
>>> I can definitely buy this.  I think Ron *has* ambition.  He 
clearly wants recognition & to "stand out" from his brothers. <<<

Pippin:

<<<<<Dumbledore's exact words were "standing alone, the best of all 
of them." Ron doesn't want to stand out, exactly, he wants his 
family out of the picture entirely.>>>>

A rather literalist interpretation, don't you think?  If they were out of the picture entirely, he couldn't, after all, be the "best" -- he'd be the "only."  :--)

<<<<<<<<I think Ron might have the makings of an Auror, whatever 
Crouch!Moody didn't say. For one thing,  Ron has the most 
enthusiasm for investigating.>>>>>>

Enthusiasm, yes.  Competence?  Eh... his record's really not so great.  He's too rash and doesn't think things through with any logic (Hermione may be guilty of oftentimes using too much logic ... but Ron really seems to use none, which is a bit unusual given his chess skills I would think ... though I know next to nothing about chess).

Penny
(who is sure she didn't respond to everything that occurred today ... but tried hard!)


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