FF: Speculation - a matter of perspective; Perspective in the Potterverse

[Penny Linsenmayer]

No: HPFGUIDX 38993

Hi --

Well, Amanda, Heidi & Steve have all weighed in with articulate positions, and I'm not sure how much I'll *add* to the discussion, but here goes --

> Jo Serenadust, commenting on Heidi's theory of a Draco/Hermione 
romance possibility, said:
> 
> <<<<<I just don't see how you were able to do this without 
> ignoring 4 volumes of careful character development by JKR.  I 
guess I'm just too literal-minded a reader to manage this leap.>>>>>>>
> 
I replied:
> Hmmm.... so is this another case of "There's one way, and only one 
way, to interpret any given character in a work of literature?">>>

Jo Serenadust responds with: 

<<<No, not at all!  I just thought that we were supposed to try to 
embrace the point of view of the author, as we are able to discern 
it.  Some things JKR writes are more clear than others.  I 
personally find her depiction of the relationship between Malfoy and 
Hermione pretty clear.>>>>>>>

Me again:

I think the part that I objected to initially, Jo, was your phrasing "ignoring JKR's careful character development."  The use of the word "ignore" suggests that there is one way to view Draco & Hermione's relationship and that way is *your* way.  The word "careful" also suggests that JKR carefully & clearly structured a given relationship and that Heidi is being dense if she doesn't see it the same way you do.

I still stand by my position that it is impossible to say that you are reading a work with authorial intent in mind, unless you've got firm unequivocal written evidence of authorial intent from the author.  Why is your version of authorial intent correct and anything contrary is just wrong?  How can you know?  The only way we'd know for sure is to sit down with JKR & give the 2 (or more) interpretations of a given scene, event, character or whatever & say "So, whadda ya think?  Who's right?"  My guess is that she'd say that noone was absolutely 100% right.    

I said:

<<<<<<<> Authorial intent is tricky business IMHO.   <snip> 
The whole point of this discussion list is further *discussion.*  
And, I might add, virtually everything we discuss here is 
speculation in some form.  Except for the rare occasion when someone 
needs reminding of an indisputable purely factual matter (i.e. Harry 
and Dudley are first cousins), all we've done for the last 2.5 yrs 
is speculate.  Whether the speculation takes the form of a straight 
narrative argument weighing the pros & cons of the proposition that 
Snape is a vampire, or is a TBAY post elaborating on the same topic 
or is a fanfic giving a backstory to Snape's vampirehood -- it's all 
speculation.  It just takes various forms.>>>>>>>>>>>

Jo Serenadust replied:

<<<<<<<<<What can I say?  I find there to be a big difference 
between "discussion" and fanfic. I have no problem with having my 
perceptions of canon challenged by the discussions on this list.>>>>>>>>

Isn't this just form over substance?  Let's continue with the Snape as a Vampire thing, since Amanda used that example too.  Is there substantively any difference at all between the following?

(a)  Poster A, who writes a really long post citing all the canon evidence that suggests that Snape is a vampire and refuting canon points that suggest he might not be (using sort of an "academic" straight narrative format);
(b) Poster B, who has written a fanfic exploring how Snape became a Vampire, using the same canon evidence that Poster A marshalls to his side in his narrative post; or
(c) Poster C, who takes Poster A's points and manipulates the material into what we're calling a TBAY post

Obviously, these are 3 different *forms* of writing.  They can all be classed as persuasive writing perhaps -- the objective of all 3 posters is to convince other readers that Snape *could* be a vampire.  Same objective -- just 3 different ways of arriving at the same place.    

Jo serenadust:

<<<Fanfic IMO brings a whole new, subversive level of distortion to the 
characters in particular.  They aren't JKR's Harry, Ron, Hermione, 
et al; they *can't* be.  I wouldn't care so much if I hadn't read so 
many posts citing other author's versions of the characters in 
support of the posters perceptions of the canon characters.>>>>>>

I agree with Heidi that use of the word subversive is unnecessarily loaded.  I also would ask what you mean by the last sentence.  Are you suggesting that if Poster A has decided that she thinks Draco is possibly redeemable, her opinion is only valid & should only be cited on this list if she arrived there by (a) reading the books, or (b) listening to someone on this list expound narratively about why Draco is a candidate for redemption?  Your arguments have also made it sound as though you don't think, in the above example, that Poster A could *possibly* have arrived at her conclusion by reading the books.  

IMO, it doesn't matter *how* someone's perceptions are changed.  If a person reads the books and only reads the books, then that person is entitled to say that his view is entirely his own.  But, if that person reads JKR chats or interviews, reads book reviews or literary criticism, participates in any online or real-time discussion groups, discusses the books with friends or family, reads or writes fanfic or otherwise becomes aware of the "fandom," then that person's views are likely to change as a result of this interaction with others, even in small ways.  There are lots of things about the characterization, plots and imagery that I would probably not have thought up on my own (based on my initial read of the books).  But, just because someone else saw something that I didn't and brought my attention to it via an online discussion group or a fanfic or a chat in real life over a cup of coffee, then how is that I can't validly change my mind from my initial perceptions?   

Amanda Geist said:

<<<<<<<Also a bit of clarification--you fanfic loons, correct me if I'm wrong--but
you are technically correct in saying that these are not JKR's Harry, Ron,
Hermione, etc. They aren't; they are what JKR's characters *could* be. The
projection is generally based on a canon foundation (of varying strength),
but fanfictions are just that--projections. They aren't trying to *be* JKR's
characters so much as they are trying to explore other, possible facets of
JKR's characters. Did I get that right, fanfic loons?>>>>

As with everything else in your post on this topic, Amanda, I agree completely.  Yes, fanfic is a means of exploring "back stories" as well as other facets of a character that are "off the page" in canon or extrapolating out what a character might be like in the future, etc.  

Amanda Geist again:

<<<<<<<So, say I forget my principles and read a superb fanfic about Snape being a
vampire. Say further that it causes me to decide that this canon-based
vampire theory, far from being the heap of rubbish I had formerly thought it
to be, is not only valid but worth further exploration. Have I been
subverted, or have I been challenged? Has my interpretation been distorted,
or simply expanded?>>>>>>

Exactly!  Discussions or fanfics can both challenge a reader to go back & re-read and think about a new possible spin.  In many cases, I re-read and think "Nah .... I still don't buy [Theory X] but nice try."  <g>  But sometimes, a discussion *or* a fanfic can cause me to re-read the books & suddenly I think "Aha!  Yes ... I can see this.  I can definitely see this."  

Shifting gears slightly, Jo said:

<<<<<<<Believe it or not, the first time I read on this list that people 
actually thought that Rowling might put Harry and Hermione together 
romantically, I was slack-jawed in amazement.  I'd never even 
considered the possibility (what a sweet,naive newbie, I was)!  
After reviewing the books, I still find the idea of such a pairing 
frankly unbelievable for a number of reasons I won't go into here.  
However, I'm no longer surprised by it, and enjoy reading the 
reasons people pose to support this idea even if I'm never convinced 
by them.>>>>>>>>>>

Well, I may have related this tidbit before, but I do have access to someone who's read the books but never participated in any aspect of the fandom.  My sister had not read any interviews or chats or participated in any discussions, even with me, until last summer sometime (or maybe summer 2000).  She's still, to my knowledge, only had this one discussion with me (she likes the books ....but wouldn't have the obsession level at all to discuss them with anyone).  So, I mentioned something about the "R/H" shipping position.  She was literally slack-jawed in amazement.  Her: "But ... but.... that's crazy.  Hermione likes Harry."  

So, just goes to show that for every person who's just sure that everyone must be seeing things the way they do, there's someone else coming to the exact opposite conclusion (but still astonished that anyone would think anything differently than they do).  :--)

As Steve wisely notes:

<<<<<<<<Please don't let the differences turn 
into trying to make everyone agree with one point of view. I have 
discovered just how horrible that kind of approach can be. In this 
case, each approach is perfectly valid and acceptable. That's the 
truth of it. Go ahead and make your choice and explain why. But 
don't expect everyone else to slap their forehead and say, "You 
know, you're right, I'll change my mind." >>>>>>>>

Steve, this should be our new group motto.  It's what I've always advocated with the list: "live and let live."  

Penny
(who is sorry to hear that Steve is having HP-related problems still ....)




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