Ron's reactions, was Hermione: Panic attacks

[Penny Linsenmayer]

No: HPFGUIDX 39015

Hi --

>>>>  I said: Deliberate cruelty, just for the sake of cruelty, to a student is not something any teacher should engage in, IMHO.  Besides, 
"bring her back to her senses?"  How so?  "Let's see, my teeth 
are hanging down past my chin & continuing to grow ... oh yeah, 
now that I'm calmer, I can see that yes, indeed, my teeth *are* 
hanging down past my chin & continuing to grow.  Yes, I feel 
better about it all now."  No, I think Hermione was quite well 
aware of the reality of the situation.   <<<<  

Pippin: It wasn't for the sake of cruelty, IMO, it was to get her to stop 
being hysterical.>>>>>>>

Er .... hysterical?  Huh?  I might need some canon evidence of hysterical.  :--)

Here's what I see: 
***   "Hermione, whimpering in panic, was clutching her mouth."

***  "...panic-stricken, she felt them, and let out a terrified cry."

***  "He forced Hermione to show Snape her teeth -- she was doing her best to hide them with her hands ...."

***  "Hermione let out a whimper; her eyes filled with tears, she turned on her heel and ran ...."

A few whimpers and one terrified cry don't amount to hysteria, IMHO.  Yes, Laura, I too remember the pain of spacers.  Ouch!  

So ... in your mind Hermione panics under stress and becomes hysterical or emotional at every opportunity?  As I noted before, I just don't see that we have much evidence of clear panicking on Hermione's part.  She's taken an active role in resolving the conflicts in each book and has only panicked with the Troll & Devil's snare.  I'd say she's improved alot.  :--)

> Pippin again:
> 
> <<<<<<Ron can think logically  --when playing chess or solving 
the keys  puzzle, but he can act in a hurry because he  trusts his intuition. Hermione needs *time* to think everything out. When she has 
to deal with a situation she's not prepared for in advance, she 
> tends to panic -- as with Boggart McGonagall, to give another 
> example.>>>>>>>>

I said:
> Well, I can't comment on how much logic is involved in chess, 
but more than once, Ron has commented, "Hush up ... give me 
some time to think about this" when he's playing chess.<<<

Pippin queries: 
<<<More than once? I only remember the scene in PS/SS....canon 
please?>>>>>

At your service, Madame:

(a)  PS (Chapter 13) -- "Don't talk to me for a moment... I need to concen..."
(b)  PS (Chapter 16) -- "This wants thinking about ...."

I was actually thinking that (a) above took place in CoS when Ron & Hermione were playing chess just before Harry found the petrified Justin Finch-Fletchley ... but it's in PS also.  We don't see Ron paying chess as much in the last 2 books, and it's usually just a short reference to the game, without any commentary.  But, the point is: he doesn't always act in a hurry & trust his intuition in playing chess; he takes his time to consider options ... just as Hermione does when approaching problems.  Ron just doesn't apply this skill outside the chess board as far as I can see.  

Pippin sets out a list of examples of Ron thinking up good solutions or being on track with right answers:

<<<<CoS -- Ron comes up with the plan to rescue Harry from the 
Dursleys.>>>>>>

Sorry, but I don't see any evidence that it was Ron and Ron alone who came up with the plan.  It appears the Twins could have been involved, though it's not certain.  But, I wouldn't count this one.

<<<<<--Despite being terrified by the spiders, Ron thinks to rescue 
Fang.>>>>>>>

I'm afraid your memory fails you on this one --

"Get Fang!" Harry yelled ...."

Ron gets credit for following Harry's direction & actually *doing* it, rather than being too paralyzed to act ... but he didn't think it up on his own.


<<<<<<PoA --"That cat's got it in for Scabbers." Perfectly true and it ought to raise a question. Why, with all the easily available prey in the 
castle, has Crookshanks  fixated on Ron's rat?>>>>>

True enough ... and Harry comes to that conclusion as well.  Hermione is (a) using logic to its extreme in this case ... cats *do* prey on rats in the normal course of cat/rat relations, and (b) is blinded by emotion for her pet.  But, my point is that Ron isn't alone in coming to this conclusion and in truth, I'm not so sure it's logic that gets him there (though I'll concede that's *possible*).  

Pippin:

<<<<<<<I think Ron has more of what it takes to be an Auror, but I'm not 
discounting Hermione as an investigator, far from it. ::Pippin 
swats at fan fic plot bunny about grown-up R/H as investigators  
ala Anne Perry's  Thomas and Charlotte Pitt :: <veg>>>>>>

It's been done already ... though with Harry & Hermione (not Ron and Hermione).  You've heard of "Paradigm of Uncertainty"?  <even bigger eg> [admits she hasn't ever heard of Anne Perry .... but thinks this idea's been done]

Pippin:

<<<<<I admit Ron's thinking is often distorted by jealousy, as 
Hermione's is by her deference to authority. His suspicions are 
often directed at those he has reason to dislike, and we are 
meant to think there's no more to his occasional right answers 
than a lucky guess.  However, I think he is actually  processing 
information subconsciously, something that Hermione, a 
conscious reasoner and linear thinker,  hasn't learned to 
appreciate. This leads her, and the reader, to discount 
connections that Ron has made subconsciously. An alert reader 
can pick up on the clues along with Ron, if one doesn't fall into 
the trap of thinking that Ron is just being jealous. In fact, very 
often Ron is on the right track and Hermione distracts him.>>>>>>>

This is a great point and you could be right about him subconsciously processing information.  I still tend to go with the surface-level read on this particular point, but you could be on to something there.

AURORS --

Debbie made some really great points about Hermione's use of logic (how she uses logic) and reliance on her values in forming conclusions in certain instances (not quoting all of Debbie's great analysis).  I agree completely that she doesn't always get the right answer via the best reasoning in the world, and this could very well be a problem later.  

Ron -- interesting points by Debbie about Ron making decisions and judgments based only on the facts before him.  This makes sense to me too ... but I'm not sure aurors are any better off being unable to think beyond the immediate situation.  I still don't agree with the notion that Ron "thinks outside the box."  I do think Pippin has a good point that he may be processing things internally unbeknownst to himself .... but I'm not sure that "thinking outside the box" is unconscious.  I've always considered it more an affirmative, conscious skill .. but maybe that's just me.  No, wait, Laura said:

<<<<<Personally, the bugging thing is more a case of ignorance about the Muggle world than anything else...trying to call it "thinking outside the box" is stretching it a bit, I think.  "Thinking outside the box" implies that one is consciously exploring different angles of a problem, which Ron wasn't doing.  Hermione in this circumstance, however, *was*.  She took Ron's ignorant comment and used it to examine the dilemma in a new light.  *That's* thinking outside the box.>>>>>>

Yeah, what she said!  :--)

Dave distilled everything down to:

<<<<<<To me the question raised by GOF is: is it desirable to (want to) be 
an auror?>>>>>

I think the answer to that is probably going to end up being "No."  I'm not even convinced that there will be a need for aurors once the series is finished.  But, assuming there's a need for something similar in a reconstituted MoM, I think it's possible that some of the Trio might find that to be rewarding work.  

My point really is this: Ron's mind does work differently than either Harry or Hermione.  And, that's an Okay Thing.  It doesn't have to be a slam on him; there are plenty of other things he can do with his life if he's not cut out to be an auror after all.  But if H&H honestly have a talent that he doesn't have but wants, I think we can expect to see Ron's green monster rear its ugly head again.    I also think I still go with the surface level read & conclusion that Ron is set apart from Harry & Hermione; I think this is a bit of foreshadowing or a red flag if you will.  Just my opinion of course --

Penny  






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