From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Nov 1 00:07:19 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 00:07:19 -0000 Subject: where was hagrid and harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45983 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: > Chis: Hi > > ...snip... > > My surgestion is that hagrid did not hide, per se, but stepped forward a day in time. While dumbledore was setting up the defences at the Dursley's, hagrid used a time turner to move forward in time and then flew to the dursley's. Before time traveling, he must have met sirus, who gave him the bike. > > ...snip... > > This has an interesting implication. If this thoery is correct, Harry is one day 'ahead' of where he should be in time. Could he be drawn back a day in time when voldemort attacks? Go back a day and escape while voldemort has not set up whereever they are fighting? > > Any thoughts? > > Chris Do I understand the last paragraph correctly, you are saying that this 'one day ahead' thing will help Harry in the final showdown with Voldemort? You said '...when Voldemort attacks...' and I'm not sure which attack (past, present, or future) you are refering to. I have this wild idea of the story being resolved by Harry having to die by some technical definition in order for Voldemort to die. But through thoughtful preplanning on Dumbledore's part, Harry, like the pheonix, rises again and comes back to life (not necessarily a popular theory). If I interpret your idea right, that could be the means by which he is able to rise again. As far as the 'missing day', I don't think the missing day is as long and complex as some people think. I'm assume the initial confrontation between Harry and Voldemort occurred at night, late at night. Can't really prove that, but that's my theory. Factor in travel time for Hagrid to Godric's Hollow, time spend there, travel time to the next place he went to then we have the remainder of that day. Now Hagrid has to allow for preparation and travel time to the Dursleys. Given all this, an awful lot of that 24hrs has been eaten up. Basically, Hagrid kept Harry feed and diapered for the remainder of the morning and afternoon, then early evening he was back on the road heading for Surrey. That is unless some unusual magic took place as Chris suggested. My point is that the missing time is only about 12hrs. Certainly, Hagrid could handle Harry for 12hrs. Sorry, I know I strayed from your original post, but I think people are reading to much into this missing time. For me, the big question is, 'Where was Hagrid during that time?' Of course, your time forward theory solves a lot of unanswered question. Just a few thought. bboy_mn From minervamctabby at yahoo.com.au Fri Nov 1 00:29:02 2002 From: minervamctabby at yahoo.com.au (minervamctabby) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 00:29:02 -0000 Subject: [FILK] Crucio! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45984 Crucio! GoF graveyard scene, Ch. 33-34 - to the tune of Waterloo by ABBA midi: http://209.197.86.65/20020902/f/abba/Waterloo.mid (for Heidi, who prodded me to post it here) Ha ha! This Crucio is all for you, Harry Potter! Oh yes! For I have waited thirteen years and this is my revenge. Don't ask me to give you a break, I'll feed your remains to my snake! Crucio! I was defeated, you got a scar. Crucio! Now I have risen, and here we are! Crucio! You can't escape, I won't let you go. Crucio! See how your blood resurrects your foe. Oh-oh-oh-oh Crucio! Finally hit you with Crucio! Ha ha! Hello, my name was Tom Marvolo Riddle. Oh yes! I killed my father, and killed yours as well, prepare to die. So bow to the Dark Lord, you fool, My Death Eaters wait for our duel! Crucio! I was defeated, you got a scar. Crucio! Now I have risen, and here we are! Crucio! You can't escape, I won't let you go. Crucio! See how your blood resurrects your foe. Oh-oh-oh-oh Crucio! Finally hit you with Crucio! Don't ask me to give you a break, I'll feed your remains to my snake! Crucio! You can't escape, I won't let you go. Crucio! See how your blood resurrects your foe. Oh-oh-oh-oh Crucio! Finally hit you with Crucio! --------------- Minerva McTabby http://www.geocities.com/minervamctabby From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Fri Nov 1 01:48:14 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 01:48:14 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Classist Hogwarts (was ... was .... was...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021029151144.04d33520@popd.ix.netcom.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20021019043643.009be100@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021031161414.0098fe10@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45985 Jim's recent reply in this thread has reminded me that I have several posts from a couple of weeks (or more) ago to deal with on this subject. I had hoped that I might manage some inroad into them tonight, but I don't think that's going to come to pass... Jim: >I do not see how any of the above, while certainly true, nullifies the fact >that Hogwarts is a boarding school and what would be called a public school >in the UK and a prep school in the US. I still maintain that, rightly or >wrongly, there is a general association of elitism with such school. I do >not claim that every boarding school is an elite institution. The principal issue here would appear to be whether or not Hogwarts is the ONLY wizarding school in Britain to offer a full curriculum. There are those on this list (Hi, Elkins, among others!) :-) who choose not to believe JKR's statement that this is the case. I see no reason to doubt JKR and can find nothing in canon to shake my belief. That, however, is a separate discussion which we've already had several times before and which I hope we won't have now. If Hogwarts is the only school, then in what way can it be "elitist"? It is a school for magical folk with some magical spark available to be nurtured. It is the *only* school for such folk, so beyond selecting those people from the population (wizard- or Muggle-born) who have that basic ability, there is no elitism or selection involved. I said earlier in this thread that there are valid pragmatic reasons for it to be a boarding school, so the fact that it is one is not *in itself* grounds to call it "elitist", which is the argument you appear to be putting forward. > >I apologise for using the same arguments over and over again, but I really > >can't stress this enough: what about Black Dean Thomas or Lee Jordan, > >Neither of these are unequivocally black in the UK edition. I presume >making Dean black was an interpolation of the editors at Scholastic. There seems to be some kind of misconception in HP fandom about the differences, as if the changes Scholastic introduced were made somehow behind JKR's back. We're not aware of the circumstances in which every change was introduced, but the fact remains that she approved every one of them. As you may have noticed, Dean is one of my favourite subjects of speculation, and I suspect that JKR always intended for him to be black but hadn't intended to include that piece of information about him at this stage. We know absolutely nothing about him or his background (except for one or two vague indicators) and I am convinced that this is deliberate. Surprising us down the road about his race would fit into that plan (in one of my favourite books by Anthony Burgess, we find out on the very last page that the first-person narrator of the story is black; this immediately puts the whole story into a different perspective and causes the reader to want to read it all again). Lee Jordan is said to wear his hair in dreadlocks. To your average UK reader, this immediately shouts out "black". Similarly, going by their names, Cho Chang is unlikely to be anything other than Oriental, and the Patil sisters are Indian. In any event, from what you later said in your post (which I excised from this reply), you appear to agree that Hogwarts is ethnically mixed anyway, so I won;t dwell on the issue. >Neville's presence at Hogwarts is, I maintain, evidence of a classist >element in the institution. Neville does appear to be a near-squib, so why >is he at Hogwarts at all? Because he is "One of Our Kind". He is from a >good wizarding family, a pureblood and his parents were socially popular in >the WW. Neville's principal qualification to be at Hogwarts is his >background not his ability. Hang on. Neville's first conversation is about how he and his family were overjoyed to discover that he had been accepted at Hogwarts, and how he had been forced to display magical ability in order to ensure that acceptance. There was absolutely ZERO expectation that he had an automatic place there based on his family background. (Side note: in the Real World, British Public Schools have strict academic entrance requirements; whilst a generous financial contribution *might*, in very specific circumstances, sway them to accept a pupil who might not otherwise have been accepted, family background is absolutely no guarantor of a place. It's no surprise that Public Schools have the best end-of-school exams results in Britain, not just because they are intrinsically better, but because they are ultra-selective about the academic abilities of first year pupils!) >Muggles at Hogwarts seem to fall into the "scholarship boys" category. What evidence do you have for the fact that anyone, Muggle or not, pays tuition at Hogwarts? What evidence do you have for considering Muggle-borns to be given any kind of different entrance criteria or expectations once at Hogwarts? >Ron and Neville are present at Hogwarts because of their class. On what actual evidence do you base that blanket statement? >My argument is not that every Hogwarts >student is admitted on account of his/her class. By that standard, Eton >and Choate would be non-elitist schools. My argument is that class does >have a role in Hogwarts admission. I can only repeat: on what basis do you make that blanket statement? >It is certainly not the only factor. I would further that by saying that >I believe Hogwarts turns out adults prepared to enter, at least, an upper >middle WW class (e.g., the MoM rather than the Knight Bus). In my mind, >this does make Hogwarts elite. Let's also remember that, at least at one >time, Lucius Malfoy dominated the Hogwarts Board of Governors. Would he >have had anything to do with a non-elite institution? Hogwarts is undeniably an elite school ("the best", according to Hermione; which I interpret to mean somewhat hyperbolically "the best in the world"). But if we accept that it is the only wizarding school in Britain, in what way can it be "elitist"? "Elitist" pre-supposes a certain degree of choice, and all the evidence to date indicates that there are no other schools in Britain to choose from, and thus to which to compare Hogwarts. Although we've not witnessed any during Harry's years there so far, we know that pupils can get expelled and we know that they have an OWLs/NEWTs examination system akin to British GCSEs/A Levels; in the Real World, people who don't do well in those exams have limited future prospects, and the system is in fact geared up to establish the cream of the crop. As I said elsewhere, the magical world doesn't really need a working class (unskilled manual labour), as such things can usually be done with magic. I also don't see how everyone leaving Hogwarts joined the "upper middle class". Firstly, that term in itself indicates a class which is not "joined"; it is a class to which one already belongs. We know three people who finished Hogwarts fairly recently: the three older Weasley brothers. Bill is a curse-breaker ("cryptographer", or even "computer hacker" would perhaps be the closest real-world equivalents), Charlie studies/works with Dragons ("zoologist"?) and Percy is a junior civil servant. These are hardly upper middle class occupations! > >As for Ron's "meagre" magical ability, I leave the Ron-philes to take you > >task. :-) Suffice to say, that whilst his grades don't appear to be > >particularly impressive, he's by no means at the bottom of his year. Any > >opinion of Ron's limited abilities is primarily his own, not other people's. > >This is simply not my impression from the books. He seems to consistently >have trouble with his classes, but perhaps it is just the juxtaposition >with Hermione that makes him look backwards. *Exactly*. Harry and Ron measure themselves against Hermione's major academic achievements, so it's hardly fair to consider them under-achievers. >How you view Stan seems to come down to whether you think he was at >Hogwarts or not. There does not appear to be any unequivocal canon either >way. In my head (no cracks please), it is inconceivable that he is an >Hogwarts alumnus, but I cannot prove it. I guess that is just a statement >about me. Which comes back to my original point. The underlying "moral" of the series is all about prejudice. The readers' as well as the characters', as I recently said elsewhere. > > Hogwarts accepts half-bloods and Muggle-borns, and it accepts > >non-WASPs. > >Clearly it does. It also accepts purebloods primarily from "good" >families. And it also accepts students from "good" families with otherwise >questionable qualifications. What do you know about Hogwarts qualifications that I don't? Everything we've had to date indicates that the only requirement for acceptance at Hogwarts is possession of what some people call the "magical gene". Ability is unimportant, family background is unimportant, financial circumstances are unimportant. *Potential* is the only important factor. In what way is that classist? >The non-muggle students appear to come disproportionately from "good" >families. The post with that rationale is one of the many I have saved to reply to as soon as I have the time. The facts are nowhere nearly as clear as you seem to imply. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who's just noticed the time and indeed will be unable to deal with the backlog of posts right now. :-( From msbonsai at mninter.net Fri Nov 1 02:30:18 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 02:30:18 -0000 Subject: Harry's power *random thoughts* Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45986 Ok. So I'm still rereading GOF right now, and I'm just wondering. How strong are Harry's powers, such that he is able to defeat Voldemort, even in weakened states, and do what he does? I mean, he is able to stand up to the Imperious Curse (I still think there's something more to this voice in Harry's head theory) when no one else in the class is able to? I don't know whether *every* student in the class had in particular gone before Harry in Crouch!Moody's attempt to put them under the Imperious Curse, but it sure seemed like it. Is Harry just so exceptionally strong? Or is there something more there? (GOF p 231) I'm still willing to believe that somehow Dumbledore is involved here. Maybe it is part of the MAGIC DISHWASHER (now that I finally know what that acronym stands for! :o) ) It seems to me that there's one great and powerful wizard everyone respects each generation, and perhaps one evil wizard. As each one falls, someone is there to *replace* them? I mean, I know Dumbledore defeated the dark wizard Grindlewald (forgive me I don't have SS/PS in front of me, but it's on the trading card in there.) Is it possible that Harry is actually being trained to replace Dumbledore in the long run? I mean, while they're trying to defeat Voldemort? Perhaps Prof. Trelawney's prediction is more that Harry is to be the *next great wizard* of the time. Everyone has so much respect for Dumbledore (at least as we see this as such through Harry's eyes.) What did he really do to earn such unswerving respect from so many people, such that they're almost afraid of him? If they have a book that can tell people when wizards are born, surely they can tell how much power each wizard has? Maybe Voldemort really messed up, and as part of his powers seem to have been transferred to Harry, maybe some of his parents powers were passed as well (genetics again). Has this been discussed before? I'm not finding it if it has, but would love to read the posts if it was and you could show me where to look. Otherwise, I'd love your opinions! (by the way, is this considered TBAY?) Julie -- HAPPY HALLOWEEN!!!! (celebrating off monitor status today :o) ) From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 1 02:44:05 2002 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 20:44:05 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Classist Hogwarts (was ... was .... was...) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021031161414.0098fe10@plum.cream.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021029151144.04d33520@popd.ix.netcom.com> <4.2.0.58.20021019043643.009be100@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021031204032.0711dec0@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45987 As the clock struck 01:48 AM 11/1/2002 +0000, GulPlum took pen in hand and wrote: >The principal issue here would appear to be whether or not Hogwarts is the >ONLY wizarding school in Britain to offer a full curriculum. There are >those on this list (Hi, Elkins, among others!) :-) who choose not to >believe JKR's statement that this is the case. I see no reason to doubt JKR >and can find nothing in canon to shake my belief. That, however, is a >separate discussion which we've already had several times before and which >I hope we won't have now. > >If Hogwarts is the only school, then in what way can it be "elitist"? This is an interesting post, to which I do not have time to respond fully tonight I do have to say that this new argument is not really an argument at all, but simply an exercise in "moving the goalposts". BTW, I see no reason to suppose, based on cannon, that Hogwarts is the only secondary school for magical folks. Jim [Huge snip] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 1 04:23:05 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 04:23:05 -0000 Subject: WW vs. MW (was: The Heir) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45988 Ahh, precious Pip. Only you could draw up the parallels of forbidden, black-listed Harry Potter with a blessed New Testament Sunday school lesson on the 'evil' holiday of Halloween. I salute you. Pip state: > The WW, you see, has decided that instead of bringing magic to the > world, it would rather withdraw within itself, creating its own > society; that society being designed to preserve and improve magic. > > The Christian theology bit is Mark Chapter 4 Verses 21 - 22: > > ..."Does anyone ever bring in a lamp and put it under a bowl or > under a bed? Don't they put it on the lampstand? > Whatever is hidden away will be brought out in the open and whatever > is covered up will be uncovered." > > which suggests to me that this separation from the muggle world, > this hiding of magic's 'light' from muggles is wrong. A fair passage in the middle of parables about sharing the talents bestowed upon yourself with the world instead of hording them for yourself, or worse not developing them at all. I wonder though if you are stretching it a bit too far. After all, Jesus also said on the Sermon of the Mount... Matthew 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." Which suggests to me, that which is precious guard from those who would, since not having such a gift, would abuse or fear the gift. For hundreds of years, Muggles have feared magic. Even in today's world of modern advances in thought and reason, we still have those that even fear the idea written in just plain fiction. {mumbled with a half-glazed look of anguish] Might take root and corrupt all generations...forever damning out nations...polluting our streams...destroying perfectly good brooms... Keeping magic from the general non-magic public is cruel...to us. We do not like being withheld from much now of days. After all, we are all finally created equal by our modern eye. Any reasonable thing we want to do, we can with little resistance. A woman that attempts the pen is no longer the intruder of the rights of men. [1] But in this world acceptance of everything different, we do loose the meaning of being protected for our own good. I hate to use this for an example since I have not see the movie, but in Spiderman, Peter Parker states that his "special powers" are his gift. His curse. He alone must bear its responsibility. I see the magic world the same way. It is their "gift/curse" to have these "special powers", and it is their responsibility to protect these powers and use them. Do you remember Gandalf in the beginning of Lord of the Rings? He cherished the simplicity of the hobbits and protected their innocence from it all. Even though the hobbits ended up being quite resilient to the power of the ring and in fact, chase evil from their homes at the end, Gandalf would of done anything to protect them from it. I see the magic world as a conglomeration of all these things. In our muggle attempt to know all about the world, we are annoyed by the fact there could still be a pocket that is trying to allude us. It is not fair. We search out lost cities, study strange tribes, catalogue every animal. The idea of a whole world we do not know of is infuriating really. How dare they keep such an amazing human gift from us? How dare they indeed. Unless, it is to protect us from them. Do you blame the WW for protecting it's gift? It's curse. Sure, it is all so wondrous and magical. I'm sure being able to shoot webs out of your palms would be too, but with those gifts come *incredible* responsibility. A responsibility that is better held in private really. That is why superheroes always wear masks. If everyone knew who they were and thus knew their telephone number, then all the world would *forever* be calling. Since the whole world does not have that gift, then those that do would be *extremely* stretched to fulfill the needs of, really, just a world turned lazy. Everything a wizard or witch can do to survive, a Muggle can do too. By separating themselves from the muggles, they can protect not only their own lives but the muggles as well. Though you did pointed out a very good point I want to address: Pip wrote: >b) allowing them to be persecuted by evil wizards without >understanding what the heck is going on [the Roberts's, anyone?] Sure the Roberts were a little taken advantage of by the naughty DE's. No real harm done though. Since they do not remember, the Roberts' little lives will continue in ignorant bliss. But you scream, "That is not fair. They should know. They have a right to know." Yes, yes. Maybe they should. What good would it have done if the Roberts had known they were surrounded by wizards and witches who had powers the never would...and not because they are too noble to use them either. ;) Even if the Roberts had know about magic, what could they have done? What defenses they have are useless. They would still be puppets in the air. Just now they would *understand* what is going on. So the wizard world is at a passing. Let the whole world know they exist and deal with the whole world of built up prejudice, fear, and scientific curiosity, or stay hidden protecting their existence living in relative peace and semi-symbiotic harmony. If Harry is to join the two worlds, I see a big task in front of him beyond anything of his background, education, or vision. A noble idea Pip, but a stretch in my eyes. Melody [1] a semi-quote taken from Anne Finch's poem "The Introduction" originally reading: "Alas! A woman that attempts the pen, such an intruder on the rights of men," lines 9-10 From chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Fri Nov 1 05:07:25 2002 From: chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia=20Chrysshallie?=) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:07:25 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] where was hagrid and harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021101050725.93244.qmail@web10404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45990 --- Christopher Nuttall wrote: My surgestion is that hagrid did not hide, per se, but stepped forward a day in time. While dumbledore was setting up the defences at the Dursley's, hagrid used a time turner to move forward in time and then flew to the dursley's.Before time traveling, he must have met sirus, who gave him the bike Very interesting theory! However, can a time-turner be used to go forward in time? If it does, would Dumbledore authorise the use of it? Hagrid, while trustworthy, sometimes can be a little careless... I actually have a lot of unanswered question about that halloween. How does anyone know that Voldemort had gone? I mean, if you are a witch/wizard who has lived for 11 years in terror, then suddenly you received an owl, or reading in the prophet that Voldemort had gone, what would your first reaction be? Celebrating? I doubt it! 11 years in terror is enough to make anyone treat everything with extreme caution. There is no proof that Voldemort has gone, surely it could be just that he decided to spare baby Harry, and gone to his usual hiding place? The only ones to realise that Voldemort has gone would be his death-eaters (the dark mark faded right when he was vaporised, I assume) However, the death-eaters were not likely spread the news, were they? And they were not likely to ask non death-eaters if they had seen Voldie... But we know from PS/SS that WW was celebrating on that day! Weren't they afraid that in the middle of the celebration, Voldemort/death eaters would come? And how precisely did Dumbledore know anyway? There was not any dark mark hovering above the Potter's. I wonder how long it was before muggles started swarming around. Did the house crumbled with a loud bang, therefore the muggles came straight away? Or was it in the morning that muggles neighbour realised that the house was destroyed? Hagrid rescued Harry just before the muggles started swarming around. He would need some time to get from Hogwarts to Godric Hollow. How many hours after the attack does this actually happened? Anyone out there have any thoughts? Vinnia who actually has a lot more questions, but reckon she better go back to her study... http://careers.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Careers - 1,000's of jobs waiting online for you! From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Nov 1 14:38:39 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 14:38:39 -0000 Subject: Sister Sprout (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45991 Sister Sprout (CoS, Chap. 16) (To the tune of ? how did you guess?! ? the Beatles' Twist And Shout) Dedicated to Ellen A. Hear the original at: http://www.geocities.com/michellesrockinatoz/RealAudio.html THE SCENE: The Great Hall. As the students breakfast, McGONAGALL enters in a state of great excitement. McGONAGALL: I have good news. (Cheering erupts) SEVERAL STUDENTS: Dumbledore's coming back! RAVENCLAW GIRL: You've caught the Heir of Slytherin! WOOD: Quidditch matches are back on! McGONAGALL: Professor Sprout has informed me that the Mandrakes are ready for cutting at last. Tonight, we will be able to revive those people who have been Petrified .. (As music starts, McGONAGALL really cuts loose) McGONAGALL & (CHORUS OF STUDENTS) Mandrakes first are babies now (First are babies) Sister Sprout (Sister Sprout) Bloom on, bloom on, bloom, bloom on baby now grow (Bloom on Baby) Bloom on she worked it all out (Worked it all out) We'll work it out, Hermy (Work it all out) We'll have her lookin' good (Lookin' good) We'll change her back from stone now (Back from stone) Justin we also should (We also should) Mandrake is no baby now (`Drake is no baby) Sister Sprout (Sister Sprout) Bloom on, bloom on, bloom, bloom on baby now (Bloom on baby) Our Sprout she worked it all out (Worked it all out) You know she mists little plants (Mists little plants) You know she pots so fine (Pots so fine) Bloom on and throw a little party now (Throw a little party) Our Sister Sprout is di-vine (Sister Sprout is di-vine) (Ah, ah, ah, ah) Mandrakes grown up they be now (Grown up they be) Sister Sprout (Sister Sprout) Green thumb, green thumb, green thumb, green thumb, she be now (Green thumb she be) Thumb on, she worked it on out (Worked it all out) You know she mists little roots (Mists little roots) You know she mists so fine (Mists so fine) Thumb on and throw a little party now (Throw a little party) Our Sister Sprout is di-vine (Sister Sprout is di-vine) Well `Drake it, `Drake it, `Drake it, they be now Well `Drake it, `Drake it, `Drake it, they be now Well `Drake it, `Drake it, `Drake it, they be now Ah, ah, ah, ah (End Music. McGonagall's characteristic reserve is restored.) (spoken) I need hardly remind you all that one of them may well be able to tell us who, or what, attacked them. I am hopeful that this dreadful year will end with our catching the culprit. (More cheering) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Nov 1 18:40:53 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 18:40:53 -0000 Subject: Slytherin, the Chamber and the Basilisk (Re: Choice over Heritage/Heirs) In-Reply-To: <20021031212631.98690.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45992 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Iris FT wrote: > > Nobody can deny that Slytherin had intolerant ideas, but there's no proof in canons that he put them into practice. Therefore, when Riddle/Voldemort claims for Slytherin inheritance when he commits a crime, he essentially puts into practice his own interpretation of Salazar's ideas, takes and arranges them so they fit with his personal madness and hatred. He acts exactly like Hitler, who took in Nietszche's philosophy ideas he interpreted with his outlook to develop his own theory about a so-called "superior race" and caution his "final solution". > Now me: I agree- to a point. IMO, the only reason Slytherin did not put his intolerance into practice is that he was prevented-by Gryffyndor, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff. I do not think that very much alteration of Slytherin's ideas were needed to give Voldemort the catalyst he required. Apparently the issue of intolerance in the WW is an old one-just as it has been in the MW. IMO, there have always been those who actively worked to protect and accept muggles and muggle-borns. The balance of good and evil is always shifting. Voldemort has his supporters: the obvious ones and the not-so obvious ones- so does Dumbledore. I believe you are correct when you state that Voldemort is acting out his own personal resentment against his father. IMO, there will always be a surplus of ways to act on your own personal hatreds-to find a philosophy to support and condone it-sad and rather frightening to think about-both in the WW and the MW. > > a)... So that he would have rely on his heirs to finish the >dirty work he had begun. That's classical, leaving the forthcoming >generation the care of revenge; that would also explain why only a >heir of Slytherin is able to open the Chamber of Secrets. > >Well, that's all I had to say on this topic. I still don't know why >Slytherin built the Chamber of Secrets, and why he put a Basilisk >inside. Any idea? > Now me: IMO, point A seems to be the most plausible-given what we do know about Slytherin. The fact that he was unable to get his way in regards to muggle-borns drove him out of Hogwarts. But why not leave something behind to inable future generations to continue his quest. Slytherin knew-like we all know, unfortunately through actual observation in recent days, that no matter how vile and reprehensible someone's ideas might be-someone else will come along and not only support but add to them. IMO, Intolerance will always be around- and will always be a handy tool for any power hungry individual willing to utilize it-Slytherin knew this, in fact, IMO, he depended on it. bugaloo37 From Audra1976 at aol.com Fri Nov 1 19:26:02 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 14:26:02 EST Subject: Anagrams Message-ID: <12a.1a158dd3.2af42f4a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45993 I proposed this topic on another list, but I want to get your feedback too. I was reading some theories about Lily being another descendant of Slytherin, and I was thinking about the Tom Marvolo Riddle/I Am Lord Voldemort anagram. I realized that "Lily Evans" and "Slytherin" have a lot of common letters. You can rearrange "Lily Evans" to get SLY__E_IN. It is only missing T, H, and R. The letters V, A, and L are left over. If we could fill in a missing middle name, like "Marvolo" was inserted into "Tom Riddle" to get his anagram, maybe we could get some sort of message relating Lily to Slytherin. We just need a middle name that contains the letters T, H, and R (like Ruth, Heather, Harriet, Theresa, or even a stranger-sounding name like Marvolo is), in which the left over letters can be combined with V, A, and L to make another word or two. You just have to think of the anagram first, then work backwards to get the name. For example, off the top of my head, if the anagram were "A Slytherin Lives." That takes care of the V, A, and L, so the middle name would have to be an anagram of T, H, R, I, E, and S. Lily Theris Evans? Or if Lily was short for Lilyth, then Lilyth Eris Evans? (Eris is the goddess of discord by the way) Can anyone think of another anagram that works? Audra From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 1 19:27:44 2002 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 19:27:44 -0000 Subject: Who were the Potters? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021029104215.079c1d20@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45994 Jim wrote- > > I thought that it was made pretty clear in COS that Harry was not > considered a "mudblood". Why would anyone consider a non-pureblood to be > the heir of Slytherin? Also, I do not think that we know whether Lily came > from a magical family or not, do we? My impression in that past was that > she was muggle-born, but Petunia does make a statement in PS about how > happy their parents were when Lily turned out to be a witch. > Could be that Mr.and Mrs.Evans were the opposite of Mr.Weasley and found the wizarding world to be completely fasinating. Who, aside from the Dursleys, wouldn't? If Petunia disliked them so much they were probably very nice and a lot of fun. -Olivia Grey From msbonsai at mninter.net Fri Nov 1 19:36:19 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 19:36:19 -0000 Subject: Polyjuice Potion!Dumbledore (TBAY?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45995 So we know there was a gleam in Dumbledore's eye in the end of GOF. What if somewhere back, oh lets say all the way back to year 1. What are the chances that at the end of year 1, when Dumbledore has flown off to the ministry on an urgent owl, that he was overpowered by someone in the ministry, and locked in a box or cage the way Moody was, and the Dumbledore we have seen from then on may be a polyjuice potioned lookalike? It would explain the gleam . . . But then, maybe there's another spot in the books this change could have taken place? Would this fit at all with what we know in cannon? Julie From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Fri Nov 1 19:37:26 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 19:37:26 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin, the Chamber and the Basilisk (Re: Choice over Heritage/Heirs) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45996 I'm not convinced that Sythenin was evil in the sense the Voldemort is. For all we know, he left the school and set up his own somewhere else. He may have belived that the inclusion of Muggle-borns meant that their parents - who at that time hated magic - would discover the school's location and destroy it. That is not a good view, but it is a pragmatic one and one that would make sense today. We don't know why he left the baslick in the chamber. It could have been captured by him and he locked it in the chamber so that no one else would be hurt by it. Coming to think of it, what else is in the chamber? Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From msbonsai at mninter.net Fri Nov 1 19:55:06 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 19:55:06 -0000 Subject: Who were the Potters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45997 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "purple_801999" wrote: > > > Jim wrote- > > > > I thought that it was made pretty clear in COS that Harry was not > > considered a "mudblood". Why would anyone consider a non- pureblood > to be > > the heir of Slytherin? > Could be that Mr.and Mrs.Evans were the opposite of Mr.Weasley and > found the wizarding world to be completely fasinating. > > -Olivia > Grey Sorry to be so late in responding to Jim's original post here. GOF p 456: Hagrid is speaking "Yeh know what I'd love, Harry? I'd love yeh ter win, I really would. It'd show 'em all . . . yeh don' have ter be pureblood ter do it. Yeh don' have ter be ashamed of what yeh are. It'd show 'em Dumbledore's the one who's got it right', lettin' anyone in as long as they can do magic." So I am thinking that Harry is not considered a pureblood either. The question then, is why they think Harry could have opened it, or why Malfoy doesn't call Harry a mudblood himself. I do think that it's possible that the Evans did believe that the WW was completely facinating. I also think it's possible, well seeing as how young Lily and James were when they died, that perhaps they were hiding out in Lily's parents house? Or next door? Perhaps Voldemort killed them as well in the fight? How did Voldemort arrive at the house anyway? I mean, James had time to tell Lily that Voldemort was there (we're always assuming that's who he was referring to). I would think if he apparated in, you'd think James wouldn't have time to "stumble" into the next room as it says in POA. Did he pull up in a muggle car? Walk up to the house? Arrive on broomstick? It just seems odd. Julie From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Fri Nov 1 20:07:15 2002 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Nov 2002 20:07:15 -0000 Subject: File - HPfGU.announcement-Nimbus.doc Message-ID: <1036181235.42735476.6635.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45998 File : HPfGU.announcement-Nimbus.doc Description : Announcement of Nimbus -------------- next part -------------- The original email contained an attachment named "HPfGU.announcement-Nimbus.doc" but we could not retrieve it via the Yahoo Groups API. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Fri Nov 1 20:07:16 2002 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Nov 2002 20:07:16 -0000 Subject: File - VFAQ.htm Message-ID: <1036181236.42736009.6635.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45999 An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msbonsai at mninter.net Fri Nov 1 20:21:33 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 20:21:33 -0000 Subject: File - VFAQ.htm -- correction or addition? In-Reply-To: <1036181236.42736009.6635.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46000 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., HPforGrownups at y... wrote: > What does this phrase mean: "Time is short, and unless the few of us who know the truth do not stand united, there is no hope for any us." [Dumbledore, GoF, Chap 36] It's a typo, should be "if" not "unless". Um, my book says something different . . . GOF p 712: "Time is short, and unless the few of us who know the truth stand united, there is no hope for any of us." So basically mine eliminated the "do not". Julie From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Nov 1 20:42:34 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 20:42:34 -0000 Subject: Slytherin, the Chamber and the Basilisk (Re: Choice over Heritage/Heirs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46001 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: > > We don't know why he left the baslick in the chamber. It could have been captured by him and he locked it in the chamber so that no one else would be hurt by it. Coming to think of it, what else is in the chamber? > >From what I can gather from CoS, the actual chamber has the appearance of being a kind of shrine to Salazaar Slytherin. There is a giant statue of him in it. This is my impression of the chamber, IMO, it was created by Slytherin to leave his mark at Hogwarts- something to act as a catalyst for future generations. The basalisk is simply used by Slytherin as a symbol-a very destructive therefore effective symbol of his power. Just waiting in that chamber for the next power hungry muggle hating wizard to utilize. IMO, we have no canon to support the concept that the basalisk was placed in the chamber in order to protect anybody. If that were the case, surely there would have been a way to prevent it from ever being released- instead of creating some type of access to it-such as being the heir of Slytherin. IMO, Slytherin knew what he was up to-he was biding his time until someone-like Tom Riddle came along-who not only met any heritage qualifications for opening the chamber but had the desire to do so-which may be the most important "qualification" of them all. After all, IMO, if we are to gather anything from CoS -or the whole series for that matter-it is that heritage/bloodlines matter very little, it is what is in the heart that determines what road you will take. bugaloo37 From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Nov 1 21:20:19 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 21:20:19 -0000 Subject: The Heir In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46002 The Pip!Squeak wrote: Slytherin has been part of Hogwarts for 1000 years. JKR appears to be implying that the Slytherins should be handled by inclusion, not exclusion. Dumbledore is trying to do this [Snape]. But he doesn't always get it right [The Dissing the Slytherins scene where he springs the Gryffindor victory on them at the Leaving Feast]. << Um, are you saying that if some other House had been leading, Dumbledore would have curbed his taste for the dramatic? Because otherwise, I don't see how Dumbledore was being exclusionist. To be inclusive, Dumbledore has to treat the Slytherins as if they were just as capable of bearing the reversals of fortune as anyone else. Dumbledore does not treat Snape or the Slytherins as though their capacity to make moral judgments is impaired. They are, just as Harry is, considered able at any moment to decide to work for the good or to abrogate that decision as Pettigrew did. I don't think Harry can understand Slytherins better than Dumbledore. I think what Harry will be able to do that Dumbledore cannot is bring the understanding he has gained in the magical world back to the Muggle world, like Mowgli at the end of the Jungle Books. I think we will understand in the end that the magical powers of the wizards are not really so wonderful after all. There is a hint of this in Molly's reaction to the magically stretched Anglia...what she thought was marvelous because Muggles had (supposedly) done it, she would have taken for granted if she had known it was magic. What is truly miraculous, the power of love, is present in both magical and Muggle worlds. It is hidden from Harry now, just as the magical world is hidden from us, but I don't think it will always be. Pippin From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Fri Nov 1 21:28:25 2002 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 21:28:25 -0000 Subject: 'Potter Line' theory problem Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46003 OK, I've always been partial to the idea that Voldie was going after the "Potter Line" in total because he believed they posed him some kind of specific threat (as the descendents of Gryffindor or otherwise). I've liked it because it explains a lot of the 'loose ends' floating around the series, like why LV was willing to spare Lily. But I just realized a problem with this. Within this theory, sparing Lily would make no sense. Why? - Because how did LV know that Lily wasn't pregnant? It doesn't seem like he took the time to perform any spell to check (if there is such a spell I don't think I'd like to know what it would involve) - he just stormed in and told her to stand aside. Since Harry heard his father and mother die within a few seconds of each other while under the Dementor's influence, and we don't hear LV say anything like a spell, it doesn't seem he stopped to check. Now, I guess it would be possible for LV to count on his spy (spies?) to let him know if Lily turned out to be pregnant and go back and get that baby!Potter too, but wouldn't this be a pretty inefficient way of doing things? Why not take care of that possibility at the same time? After all, he killing Cedric when it was convenient and in his interest without pausing to think about. Was he that sure that Wormtail would know _right away_ if she was pregnant? Would this just be an inappropriate topic for a children's book? (pregnancy less appropriate than murder, that would be interesting :-) ) Or was LV going after James and Harry specifically rather than after 'The Potters'? And if so, why? Is a new theory in order? -Ing From cindysphinx at comcast.net Fri Nov 1 21:51:13 2002 From: cindysphinx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 21:51:13 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Filch's Double-Cross Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46004 Exhausted after a long day of preparing the Big Bang Destoyer for the coming storm, Cindy was looking forward to a stiff drink in George's Tavern in town. The place was almost empty this late at night, with most of the chairs overturned on top of the tables. A single patron remained ?- a slender British woman with auburn hair, her wrists adorned with a few too many diamond-encrusted bangles. Her shoulders slumped as she hunched over a tall glass of bitter ale. Several drained glasses stood on the bar in front of her, and she repeatedly waved off the bartender's efforts to clear them away. Cindy heaved herself upon the empty stool next to the woman. "What'll it be?" asked the bartender, wiping his hands on a stained kitchen rag. "I'll have an Ambush." "A . . . a *what?*" asked the bartender. "An *Ambush!*" Cindy rolled her eyes in exasperation. "You know -- one ounce Bushmills and one ounce Amaretto, strained into a large shot glass? Honestly, George! How long have you owned this place, anyway?" "Did . . . did you just order an *Ambush?*" asked the woman. "Oh, there's nothing I like better than a cold Ambush! George, make it a couple!" Her eyes widened suddenly, and she sat upright on her stool. "You wouldn't happen to be . . . are you . . . are you *Cindy?* From the Big Bang?" "Yes, I am," replied Cindy in a long-suffering tone. "And who, might I ask, are you?" "Jo. I mean, Jo Rowling. I, uh . . . . I've written a few children's books. Maybe you've heard of them? There's, um, 'Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone,' and then there was another one -- " "Yes, yes, I've read the books," Cindy said, waving her hand impatiently. "What on earth are you doing here? You're supposed to be writing the fifth book! What brings you to George's this late at night?" "It's that kid," Jo said curtly. "That *Oprah* kid! He's ruined *everything!*" "'That Oprah kid?'" Cindy repeated blankly. "That's right. See, there's this kid who is a big fan of Harry Potter, and he wrote to me, and we started exchanging letters. And he kept asking me what was going to happen in the next book. Again and again he asked, and I wouldn't tell him. But he just kept *hounding* me. So finally, I Cracked! I told him something about OoP ?- something that wasn't even *true,* just to throw him off -- and then he went and *blabbed* it on international television ?- right there in front of God and Oprah and everyone!" "Oh, I heard about that show. Oprah kept mispronouncing your name, didn't she?" "Can you believe it?" Jo scowled. "Someone named 'Oprah' can't say *my* name right? 'Rowlings' ?- where did she get *that?* Sheez! "Anyway . . . " Jo paused to slam her shot glass on the counter and knocked back her drink in one gulp. "I told the kid that muggles were going to invade the wizarding world in the next book. What was I *thinking?* I've finished the whole manuscript -? I have it right here, in fact ?- but now I'll have to toss the whole bloody thing into a *raging* bonfire because there's not a word in it about muggles invading the wizarding world. It's going to take me *years* to re-write the thing. Oh, thanks a *lot,* kid!" "Hold on, hold on now," Cindy said. "Maybe we can save it. I mean, the concept of muggles invading the wizarding world isn't ridiculous, right?" "Oh, it's ridiculous, all right," Jo said glumly. "I've thoroughly painted myself into a corner in the first four books. Muggles never believe magic when they see it, right? Wizards can do all these spells to make muggles forget things, remember? All of the scenes with the Dursleys and the Robertsons firmly establish that muggles have victim status in the books and are completely helpless, see? Even electricity doesn't work when muggle devices get near Hogwarts, not to mention concepts like unplottability that make it hard to explain how muggles could even find wizards to invade their world. And if a muggle did manage to attack a wizard, the wizard would simply throw up a Shield Charm and the muggle would bounce right off, wouldn't he? Oh, I really dug my own grave this time." "No, no, I think you can make it work," Cindy broke in quickly. "There are ways muggles might invade the wizarding world, right there in the first four books." Jo raised her eyebrows contemptuously. "Oh, really? Name one." "Well, there's Filch, for one thing. Filch really gets a raw deal in the wizarding world, don't you think? He's a squib, so he's technically a wizard, I suppose. He's part of the wizarding world, in any event. He seems to harbor a great deal of hostility toward wizards, though, so he's clearly not happy with his station in life. "See, Jo, I've always wondered why Filch remains on as the Hogwarts groundskeeper. I mean, why not go live as a muggle? Why be at the very bottom of the heap in the magical world when he instead could go live a perfectly nice life as a muggle, maybe using whatever teensy bit of magical power he has to make life in the muggle world a touch easier. You know, small fish in a big pond versus big fish in a small pond and all. "Not only that, Filch seems almost to be the wizarding world patsy. Fred and George disrespect Filch to the point of deliberately making his job difficult by doing things like setting off dung bombs and stealing things from his office. Snape orders Filch around and snaps at him. And Filch is reduced to trying to cure his squib status with Snake Oil remedies like the Kwick Spell course. That's just plain humiliating. No way is Filch a happy man." "That's true," Jo allowed, nodding slowly. "Why would anyone be content with that?" "Heck, look at the name you picked for Filch. Argus Filch. 'Argus' is a beast in Greek mythology, and 'filch' means to steal. Yet you haven't done anything with that in the books. So far, Filch has done almost nothing." "Hey, I did give myself some room to work there, didn't I?" Jo asked hopefully. "Oh, that's just the beginning. Look at Filch's characterization. He *hates* the students, and he is vindictive and horrible to them. He keeps chains and manacles in his office. He knows the secret passageways of Hogwarts better than most anyone." "But what am I supposed to *do* with all of this Filch canon," Jo asked beseechingly. "Oh, that's where the fun begins. Obviously, if the muggles are going to invade the wizarding world, they're going to need some help, right? They'll need someone who knows all about the wizarding world ?- its history, its vulnerabilities. Perhaps someone who knows the wizarding world will soon be divided against itself and therefore weakened. Filch knows all of these things, including how to get to one of the most powerful wizards there is ?- Albus Dumbledore. Filch is someone with a motive ?- a desire to avenge years of shabby treatment at the hands of wizards -- " "You don't mean ?-" "I most certainly do!" Cindy cried. "Turncoat!Filch is the way you can save OoP *and* keep your little pen pal happy! Argus Filch goes over to the muggles and organizes them. He spills the darkest secrets of the wizarding world to the muggles, rallying them to rise up against the treatment they have received at the hands of wizards! He tells them how and where to strike the wizarding world -? hard! If the muggles join with him, Filch says, they will be rid of wizards once and for all -? especially now that muggle-torturing DEs are on the loose again. Oh, Filch sees what might be his only chance to make his big move, and he doesn't let it slip away -- especially if you make Filch the person who discovers magic late in life! Don't you see, Jo -- it's *perfect!*" "I don't know," Jo said doubtfully. "I mean, I've already come up with this detailed outline of the book, and I have my themes all set." "Oh, that's no problem at all. Turncoat!Filch fulfills all that stuff like narrative function and theme and . . .uh . . . whatever." Jo narrowed her eyes in suspicion. "Uh, Cindy, aren't you getting out of your league just a bit here. I mean, no offense or anything, but *you?* Discussing theme and narrative function?" "Hey, hey now! I've been reading up on this theory-type stuff, and I'm ready to start popping off about themes and narrative function and even subversive readings of the text if you want. See, one of the big themes in the books is that it isn't what you're born, it's what you choose to become that matters, right?" "Uh, if you say so." "Right," Cindy went on. "So Filch was born a squib. He could choose to continue the honorable work of groundskeeper. I mean, it's a living, and Filch is surely better off in the wizarding world than Lupin, who can't get paid work at all. Dumbledore has been kind enough to allow Filch this toehold into the wizarding world, even though Filch can't use magic to do his job. But that's not good enough for Filch. No, he makes another choice. A choice to betray Dumbledore. In this way, Filch chooses what is easy over what is right. "And not only that," Cindy said with a twisted smile. "Turncoat! Filch is *Bangy,* Jo. And that's the Biggest theme of them all." "Hey, you might have something there!" Jo said, clapping Cindy on the back. "Let me give it some thought. You know, this Turncoat!Filch thing could be just what I'm looking for. A few quick edits and I can have the next book out in no time. Thanks a lot, Cindy!" Cindy slammed her own shot glass onto the counter and drained it, wiping her mouth with the back of sleeve. "No trouble at all. Can I treat you to another round, Jo?" "No thanks, I have a craving for something different. George, I'd like a shot of Vodka, a shot of Chambord, and just a splash of cranberry juice." She gave Cindy a sly smile. "You know -- a 'Vampire.'" ************ Cindy ************* Cocktail recipes courtesy of http://cocktails.about.com/library/recipes/blambush.htm and http://cocktails.about.com/library/recipes/blvampire.htm ************ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% 20Files/hypotheticalley.htm > > and Inish Alley at > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 From gandharvika at hotmail.com Fri Nov 1 22:11:14 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 22:11:14 +0000 Subject: (FILK) I've Just Heard a Voice Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46005 I've Just Heard a Voice (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune _I've Just Seen a Face_ by the Beatles) Dedicated to Pippin, in whose shadow I stand in awe... Harry: I've just heard a voice Inside my head I had no choice I heard it say When the Dementors came during that last Quidditch game we played "Oh, no no no no no!" Outside in the pouring rain Now my life will never be the same it was my mother's cry The last thing that she said before she died Why, why, why, why, why, why? Falling, off my broom, falling, and Mum is calling, "No, not Harry!" I had never known the curucmstance Behind her death but by mischance I came to realize She protected me from Voldemort that night She died died died di-di-died Falling, off my broom, falling, and Mum is calling, "No, not Harry!" Falling, off my broom, falling, and Mum is calling, "No, not Harry!" I've just heard a voice Inside my head I had no choice I heard it say When the Dementors came during that last Quidditch game we played "Oh no no no no no!" Falling, off my broom, falling, and Mum is calling, "No, not Harry!" Falling, off my broom, falling, and Mum is calling, "No, not Harry!" Oh, Falling, yes I am, falling, and Mum is calling, "No, not Harry!" -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections-- switch toMSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Nov 1 22:14:20 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 22:14:20 -0000 Subject: The Heir In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46006 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > > What is truly miraculous, the power of love, is present in both > magical and Muggle worlds. It is hidden from Harry now, just as > the magical world is hidden from us, but I don't think it will > always be. > Just wanted to add one thought to the above well-considered statement. I believe the power of love is not hidden from Harry at this point in his life. IMO, it certainly was the first 11 years of his life. I believe the turning point to be when Dumbledore aquainted Harry with the facts of his mother's death at the end of PS/SS. Harry has since that time been drawing more and more courage from his friendships with Ron and Hermione, the loving support of the Weasleys, Hagrid, Lupin, Sirius, and Dumbledore. Does anyone ever reach a complete understanding of the power of love? Perhaps not, but IMO, Harry is on his way. bugaloo37 From dwalker96 at aol.com Sat Nov 2 03:07:03 2002 From: dwalker96 at aol.com (energizermummy) Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 03:07:03 -0000 Subject: end of Dursleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46007 I am new here, and wasn't able to find this topic in the archives; if it had already been discussed, sorry, indulge me. Anyone ever theorize re: the end of the Dursleys? After all, LV and followers are not the only villians in HP. I can imagine a possible scene in year 7, where a miserable Dudley acknowledges to Harry the same jealousy he has of him as Petunia had of Lily. Although Petunia self describes it as hatred, it really is jealousy- how proud her parents were of the witch in the family. What I really look forward to, is when Vernon gets his. Of course, the Dursleys always have some sort of bad event befall them (and deservedly so) in each book; pig tails, lost drill accounts, ton tongues and such. But I have an idea for a really spectacular end to Vernon. In HPatSS, when Griphook opens vault 713, he does it with a finger swipe, and warns that "if anyone but a Gringotts goblin tired that, they'd be sucked through the door and trapped in there". Then in CoS, Harry's thought is that as much as his Uncle Vernon hated the wizarding world, he didn't think Vernon's loathing would stretch to his fortune of gold lying under the streets of London. I have worried from book one that if the Dursleys find out about Harry's fortune, obviously that will cause a problem. But how fabulous, if greedy Vernon, somehow forcing Harry to take him to Gringotts, gets sucked into one of the vaults....an appropriate punishment, eh? Donna From dwalker96 at aol.com Sat Nov 2 02:44:34 2002 From: dwalker96 at aol.com (energizermummy) Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 02:44:34 -0000 Subject: new female DADA teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46008 > Sally says: > I can't find the exact quote but I believe PD say's something > somewhere along the lines of Harry being safer at Privet Drive than > even he realises. This makes it reasonable to suggest that the close > proximity of AF is the reason for HP's safety while he's in the > muggle world. > I am new as well...Hadn't thought much about it, but to support your theory, I always thought it odd that at the end of GoF Dumbledore insists the safest place for Harry is on Privet Drive- I always wondered what possible protection he would have back with Muggles. Donna From Audra1976 at aol.com Sat Nov 2 06:58:52 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 01:58:52 EST Subject: FILK - A Day In Black's Life Message-ID: <40.269d6c40.2af4d1ac@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46009 I had to throw my hat in the ring with this Harry Potter meets the Beatles trend. Everyone's have just been spectacular so far, really, I love them! This is the first filk I've ever written, so be gentle. haha. "A Day In Black's Life" To the tune of "A Day in the Life" by Lennon-McCartney There's a MIDI available on this site: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/2729/index2.html Setting: The shrieking shack at the end of PoA. Sirius is relating his story to Harry. SIRIUS: I read the news that day, oh boy, An "M-O-M Employee Scoops First Prize," And though I sat in Azkaban, Well I just had to laugh. I saw the photograph. Upon the shoulder of this boy There sat a rat that had one missing toe. It had been twelve years, even so, At once I knew his name. Peter Pettigrew betrayed your parents and left me the blame! He was at Hogwarts now, oh boy, And if the Dark Side gathered strength again He'd strike at you first chance he got, Hand you to You-Know-Who. My obsession grew... I had to stop...him...now. One night, they brought me food. As a dog, my vibes were crude. The Dementors didn't sense me slip by-- Knew I was weak, but not that I was sane. Slipped through the bars and swam to land. Everything went as I planned. With my new-found freedom, I set forth And headed North, towards the Hogwarts grounds. Ahhhhhhhh I watched the Quidditch match, oh boy. Harry, you fly just like your father did. This cat you call Crookshanks helped me, Got me the password sheet, But Peter faked his death again and tried to make a quick retreat! You've got to be...lieve...me. --Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Sat Nov 2 07:33:08 2002 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 07:33:08 -0000 Subject: Anagrams In-Reply-To: <12a.1a158dd3.2af42f4a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46010 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Audra1976 at a... wrote: > I proposed this topic on another list, but I want to get your feedback too. > > For example, off the top of my head, if the anagram were "A Slytherin > Lives." That takes care of the V, A, and L, so the middle name would > have to be an anagram of T, H, R, I, E, and S. Lily Theris Evans? Or > if Lily was short for Lilyth, then Lilyth Eris Evans? (Eris is the > goddess of discord by the way) > > Can anyone think of another anagram that works? > How about this: "A Slytherin lives." = "It's her, Lily Evans!" Incidentally, the letters "Ronald Weasley" & "Severus Snape" have in common form "a sneer". (The remaining letters for Ron would be "lady owl", and for Snape are "vespus"). I actually have a text file laying around of anagrams of various character names. I've never been sure how much to make of, for example, "Lucius Malfoy" anagramming into "mucus of a lily", though. --Arcum From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Nov 2 07:33:45 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 02:33:45 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin, the Chamber and the Basilisk (Re: Choice over ... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46011 Iris: > But this doesn?t explain why Slytherin put a Basilisk in the Chamber of > Secrets. > > a) We don?t have a canon proof he wanted to use it as a weapon to get > rid of some of the Hogwarts? students. Or did he tamed it, trained it in > secret but didn?t have the time to put his plan into practice, whether he > died, whether the others (Gryffindor and Co) stopped him? So that he would > have rely on his heirs to finish the dirty work he had begun. That?s > classical, leaving the forthcoming generation the care of revenge; that > would also explain why only a heir of Slytherin is able to open the Chamber > of Secrets. > (Oops - I thought I'd posted this yesterday!) That sort of depends on what you mean by canon proof, doesn't it? Canon tells us via Prof Binns, that the rift between the founders over the Muggle-born students issue was so great that Slytherin left the school (makes you wonder how come there's still a Slytherin House, really). Within the canon, this is *historical*. Canon also tells us the legend that he had concealed a monster within a secret chamber which could only be opened by his true heir, precisely in order to purge the school of those unworthy to practise magic. Now Prof Binns, for whatever reason, is adamant that this is only a legend. However he is proved wrong, in that the Chamber exists, has been opened by one who seems to be Slytherin's true heir and does contain a monster. Why not then assume that the rest of the legend is also true and that his purpose was to carry on the work which he had failed to do himself whilst at Hogwarts? If so, I suspect that he created and enchanted the Chamber and secreted the monster in advance, knowing that the rift was coming. It would be a nice piece of revenge on the other founders and their heirs. In earlier times, I can imagine that he caused a fair amount of real terror as before the story got relegated to the realms of myth, staff and students would live in fear of the arrival of the Heir and the release of the monster. now adding on Christopher's comments, >I'm not convinced that Sythenin was evil in the sense the Voldemort is. For all we >know, he left the school and set up his own somewhere else. He may have belived >that the inclusion of Muggle-borns meant that their parents - who at that time hated >magic - would discover the school's location and destroy it. That is not a good view, >but it is a pragmatic one and one that would make sense today. As mentioned above, this discussion of the Chamber of Secrets and Slytherin and his monster rests on how much we believe of what we are told in CoS. If Voldmort *is* Slytherin's true heir and if we are talking about heir in the sense of his true inheritor, in the sense of being the one *worthy* to be his successor (a 'chosen one') as I and others believe this to mean, then the mere fact of Voldemort being his heir tells us something about Slytherin's nature, I believe. Slytherin may not have acted as Voldemort did, but perhaps that was down to the restraint of *three* other powerful wizards and witches whom he feared in the same way as Voldemort fears Dumbledore. In addition, magic has had a thousand years of development since his time and the tools available to Voldemort are no doubt greater than those available to Slytherin. The greater separation of the magical, and non-magical worlds perhaps also gave Voldemort greater freedom of operation (for instance, Muggles wouldn't explain a house collapse or the death of large numbers of people away as the result of a gas explosion in Slytherin's time). > > We don't know why he left the baslick in the chamber. It could have been > captured by him and he locked it in the chamber so that no one else would > be hurt by it. Coming to think of it, what else is in the chamber? As I said above, I have no problem in believing the canon verion of events, accepting that the legend which had been dismissed for so many years had in fact been true. > > Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 2 08:17:01 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 08:17:01 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Filch's Double-Cross In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46012 A bit restless and terribly bored, a small girl decided to leave the safe house and venture into a world she had only been told existed. Grey and Pip had filled her young head of the past glamour and epic wars fought on the shores. She was greatly intrigued to explore and met the captains, pirates, and valiant warriors of yore. They were her heroes. The brisk wind whipped at her hair as she wandered down the oddly deserted streets. Where are all the people? It was as if the well this small town thrived on had somehow managed to dry up. "Impossible," she thought. "How can *this* town ever become abandoned?" A small light in a window caught her eye. Intrigued, she crept forward. The warm tavern looked greatly inviting. A small fire was still it in the corner despite the fact it was obviously nearly time to close. A gentle man was behind the counter looked slightly amused by the two women at his counter. Creeping a bit further toward the door not wanting to interrupt, Melody turned her head to watch the two women. From what she could tell, they seemed to be old friends. Possibly even sisters. Turning her ear to the door, Melody overheard a snippet of their conversation. >"Oh, that's just the beginning. Look at Filch's characterization. >He *hates* the students, and he is vindictive and horrible to them. >He keeps chains and manacles in his office. He knows the secret >passageways of Hogwarts better than most anyone." >"But what am I supposed to *do* with all of this Filch canon." Filch? A bit if electricity shot through her. There seems to be life in the old town yet. Though, why is this woman in an over decorated captain?s hat talking to that nice bejeweled lady about Filch? "Who cares about him?" Melody wondered crouching into the corner to avoid being seen. >"Oh, that's where the fun begins," the hat lady continued, >"Obviously, if the muggles are going to invade the wizarding world, >they're going to need some help, right? They'll need someone who >knows all about the wizarding world ?- its history, its >vulnerabilities." Ooo, invasion. This sounds interesting. But Filch? A Pied Piper? This woman can?t be serious. I mean. He is hideous. "I have to say something," she thought as she rose to enter the tavern. Little to her knowledge there was a mad wild-haired woman standing there to stop her. Trying desperately to keep from screaming, which only entailed her falling back hard against the wooden porch and shaking uncontrollably, Melody scooted away from the odd creature before her. "Please, don?t. Turn back!" the wild woman insisted with eyes the pierced through her further than any magical ones evercould. "Excuse me?" Melody managed to cough as she backed herself into the corner. "You must not go in there," she rasped. Realizing the woman could not hurt a flobberworm, Melody began regaining her composure and got up brushing herself up. "Why not?" A bit exasperated the crazy lady continued, "Don?t you know who that is?" "Umm, a captain and a rich lady?" Melody offered not really that concerned who they were. As long as they were talking shop, she desperately wanted to join. The look of disappointment on her face was quite noticeable. "You?re new, aren?t ya?" "No," Melody said indignantly. "Yes, you are," the lady insisted. Crossing her arms and pouting a bit at this lady?s lack of observational skills, "I am not. I?m been around here a little while..." "Ai, but not long enough if you think you can go in there and chat with the likes of her." She said wisely. "What is wrong with her? She seems nice enough. A bit...scoured by the salty air, but still kind," Melody said with complete confidence yet innocence. "Fine, go in there then. But I?ll have you know she is as tough as they come. She loves to greet strangers..." "I?m not a stranger." "Well to her you are. Have you ever talked to her before?" "Well no. I don?t think so. Don?t think we have managed to properly met," Melody said trying to recollect her days in the town. "Why?" Leaning back against the post, the mad lady said, "Well, she can be a bit like Mrs. Astor." "What do you know about Mrs. Astor?" "Hehe, I may look crazy but I know my history. Even your silly American history. Like to read a lot if you can?t tell," the mad lady told with great assurance. >From the looks of the lady it seemed that she had *written* that history. Either way, this lady was beginning to greatly amuse her. "All right, then how is captain hat lady like Mrs. Astor?" "You are not a citizen of this town till *she* says you are." "Really? How is that since I am here and thus a citizen?" "You may exist here but you do not *exist* here till she deems you worthy." "Gracious. She?s that important?" "Yeah. Or at least we like her to believe that she is. Either way, I don?t recommend going in there." Looking back into the tavern, Melody noticed the nice hatless lady was sliding on her cashmere coat to leave. "But, I want to tell her how she is wrong about Filch." "Fine. Do what you wish. Damn, upstart youth. Always knowing what is best..." she grumbled as she wandered back into the mist. Turning back to the tavern, Melody saw the coated hatless lady leave. Seizing the chance, Melody strode to the door and entered. Captain hat lady was still sitting there polishing off her last round. Quietly scared by what the mad lady outside has told her but greatly intrigued by the decorated hat that sure had accompanying stories, Melody willed herself forward wondering how in the world to strike up a conversation with a veteran. The bartender looked up at this new customer. He sighed and went to grab another glass but paused. "Are you old enough to be in here?" he glanced at her. "Yes." "Hmmm...I recon not but still. What twill it be?" "Oh, well just orange juice." "Orange juice?" the hat lady looked up. "You came out in this wind and mist for orange juice? Are you ill?" "No." Seems Melody did not have to start the conversation after all. "Then why are you out here? Don?t tell me you lost your puppy?" "No. I just was wandering and saw the light from the fire," she said as she accepted her orange juice from George. "Hmmm," hat lady sounded tipping back her glass. "And well, I heard voices and got excited. Seems there is no one else around, and I wanted to met people and see the sites..." Looking up at the bartender, hat lady laughed, "Look George. We have a tourist." "I am not a tourist. I live here." "Sure you do. Might I ask where?" "At that big house by the bay. You know. The one with the antennas and cameras all about." Snorting in her glass, "Oh, that one. -- I see." Annoyed by where all this was going Melody got to the point, "Well, I was looking around and overheard you talking to that other woman. Y?all were discussing Filch and muggles. And I just wanted to say I think you are wrong." George dropped the glass he was cleaning and looked between the two women certain there would no longer be a need to refill the young girl?s glass. Its owner would soon be dispensed. But to his surprise, his long-time patron relaxed and smiled. "What?s you name little girl." "Melody." "Well, I am Cindy. Captain Cindy to you. And you are entirely too bold coming in here tonight after I have had a few. What makes you think anything you will say would change anything that has transpired here?" Cap Cindy asked as she swung around to stare at the presumptuous creature before her. She was sure the little thing would crumble fast and she would be able to go home to her bed. "Umm, well it is just," Melody felt as nervous by Cap Cindy?s stare as she had with the mad lady?s one from outside, but nothing was going to deter her now. There was more shame in leaving than staying by Melody?s measure. "You see the problem I have with the idea of Filch leading the crusade invasion of muggles into the wizard world...well...it has many reasons really." Shifting in her chair, Cap Cindy cocked her head and encouraged, "Well I?m listening darling. Spit it out." George smiled behind the counter. He like watching Cindy ensnare her victims. "Ok. You see it is this. You said that Filch hates the students. I think that is a bit harsh. He may be intensely jealous of them, but to out and out hate them, I don?t think so?" "And what proof, beyond your *impression*, do you have little girl." "Well, we always see Filch threatening the students and jeering at them, but has he ever done anything against any student beyond his normal job? Snape reigns down upon them harder than Filch. He definitely is a greater threat in the students? eyes. Filch is just a joke because he never backs his threats up. He says he has chains..." "Well oiled chains," Cap Cindy interrupted. "He keeps them shiny in waiting." "Maybe, but let me finish. He *says* he has chains, and in fact, in CoS Harry sees them in his office 'highly polished'. But, we have no stories of Filch using them. Ever. No student is afraid of his tokens on the wall. They stay polished because they are not used." "Well, Dumbledore does not let him. That is too cruel for children." CC offered. "But in GoF, we learn that Arthur still had marks from his little breaking of the rules given to him by the previous caretaker. Times and customs do not changed that much in the WW, so why does Filch not have the same authority? I think it is because he cannot bear to do it. He actually cares about the students and is quite nurturing." CC glanced slightly amused up at Melody. "Filch? Nurturing? What sort of rubbish is that?" "Well he does manage to keep a cat so loyal, and he did bandage Snape?s knee in PS/SS. Plus you are forgetting he nurtures the whole of Hogwarts the place. It is his job to keep her so clean and her shiny best. He nurtures the actual school building and does it with great dedication. At no time do we see him slacking in his duties." "Well that is part of his cover. He is infiltrating the enemies lair..." CC theorized, as her eyes got big. "Hey, I thought Safe House was where spy stories were nurtured," Melody stated. "Ehh, we all dabble a little. We just don?t take ourselves as seriously as y?all do," CC winked. "Anyway, since Filch never backs up his threats and never slack on his job, I would say he is a model employee. He is loyal. Hard working. And mostly, not able to lead an uprising from below. He is too powerless. You see, even if Filch went to the muggles and convinced them that he is able to lead them into conquest, I truly doubt they would follow him. I mean look at him. He is quite the site to fear. Moldy tailcoats. A pouncy face. No respectable Muggle would believe him. They are raised to fear the sight of a man looking like him or at least cross the street to avoid him. Why would they follow him?" Feeling a bit bolder Melody continued, "And also, appointing a squib to your school is very generous on Dumbledore?s part. It allows Filch to stay living in the world he grew up in and keep a job. What other job in the WW could Filch have? Even if he left it to the muggle world, he has *no* magical abilities. He is a muggle dressed like a wizard, but in the WW, he is able to use magical objects at least. Seems that makes his job easier than in the MW." "True, true," CC said starting to doze off a bit, "But the point of mine and Jo?s conversation earlier was to say that the possibility of that plotline is there in the text already. Whether or not it was always intended or not." "I just don?t see how a squib who can?t even convince the school to get rid of a silly poltergeist and can?t convince the students he possibly could be sincere in his threats even though he has the chains will convince the MW that he can give them the WW on a silver platter. This man has no skills in that area. It is not *already* in his character. He might have motive by your interpretation, but he does not have the ability to lead any sort of people. The man can barely keep it together when he cat is found petrified. How is he able to develop an ambush?" Cap Cindy laughed, put down her glass, and looked over at Melody. "You are a brazen thing. I see why Pip calls you one of her supporters and let you stay in the safe house." Mel blushed a bit, "Thanks. ? Though, I have not convinced you at all, have I?" "Well, Melody, I?m not sure," Cap Cindy said honestly. "Hey there is one part I can add. The fact Snape went to him to help bandage him leg helps show that Snape is at least procuring a friendship and thus a 'watch' on Filch. With Filch in his pocket, Snape, and thus Dumbledore, can keep Filch in his place and keep a second eye out for suspicious activity. After all, when Filch found the egg at the bottom of the stairs, Snape was not far behind. He is quite aware where the man is and would tell Dumbledore of any activities. So if Filch turned, they would be on his tail like butter on bread." "Butter on bread, heh?" CC said with a raised eyebrow, "Just had to sprinkle a bit of tag team Snape and Dumbledore in there, didn?t you?" "Only another perspective Captain Cindy," Melody rationed finishing off her orange juice. George looked up from the bar amazed the girl lasted that long. "Well young lady, you at least have gumption to come in here and face me. I?ll give you that. I won?t give you much more, but that I can do," CC said rather business like with a bit of charm. She rose from her barstool and steadied herself to return to her ship. "Well, thanks for listening none the same Captain Cindy," Melody smiled, "All I ask really." "Honey, you should ask for more, but hey, you are a bit new to this area. Takes a bit getting use to. I must be off now. George, make sure this girl gets home alright." "Sure thing Cindy," he confirmed as she headed home. Melody wasn?t sure how Captain Cindy was going to get back on her ship, but she did bet the woman would not be swimming. "Thanks George for the orange juice," Melody smiled rising to go home. "Anytime, kid. Anytime." From orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 2 12:45:05 2002 From: orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com (orlaquirke2002) Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 12:45:05 -0000 Subject: The late in life magician In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46013 I have this pet theory where Petunia's and Lilly's mum and / or dad was a magician, which is why they were so proud that Lily was a witch, and Petunia was bitter and jealous about it, and that it will be Dudley who gets magic later in life. I know there isn't any supporting cannon, but it's what I like to believe anyway. Orla From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Sat Nov 2 15:57:47 2002 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (kaarlo moran) Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 10:57:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The late in life magician In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46014 On 11/2/02 7:45 AM, "orlaquirke2002" wrote: > I have this pet theory where Petunia's and Lilly's mum and / or dad > was a magician, which is why they were so proud that Lily was a > witch, and Petunia was bitter and jealous about it, and that it will > be Dudley who gets magic later in life. I know there isn't any > supporting cannon, but it's what I like to believe anyway. > > Orla > That's possible, but I remember the when Harry confronted Tom Riddle at the end of COS he mentioned that it was his 'Muggle-Born' mother who sacrificed herself so that the Killing Curse would bounce off him and leave Voldemort mostly dead. From daniel.brent at cwctv.net Sat Nov 2 15:52:14 2002 From: daniel.brent at cwctv.net (evenflow200214) Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 15:52:14 -0000 Subject: Our Good Friend Voldy And Lack Of Knowledge Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46015 Don't people wonder what happened to Tom Riddle in the wizarding world? The "greatest student Hogwarts has ever seen" vanishes and it doesn't occur to people to ask questions? "evenflow200214" From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sat Nov 2 17:16:50 2002 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 12:16:50 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Our Good Friend Voldy And Lack Of Knowledge Message-ID: <1c9.feeb68.2af56282@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46016 In a message dated 11/2/02 12:04:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, daniel.brent at cwctv.net writes: > Don't people wonder what happened to Tom Riddle in the wizarding > world? The "greatest student Hogwarts has ever seen" vanishes and it > doesn't occur to people to ask questions? > > "evenflow200214" Do people really keep track of each other after they leave Hogwarts? I always thought that it was kind of like Muggle High School - maybe you write a few e-mails, see them once in a while; but you're so busy embarking on your new life that you don't really think about the one you just left. If Riddle had any friends, maybe he had told them of his plans. That makes sense because then the only people who *would* ask questions already knew the answer. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ "You were doomed when you lost the ability to love." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Sat Nov 2 19:44:07 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 19:44:07 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Filch's Double-Cross In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46017 Unseen to the rest of them, a young woman had been sitting in a dark corner by herself, listening to the whole conversation. As the door to George's Pub closed, Risti couldn't contain herself anymore. For awhile she had been completely content to just sit in the corner of the room, sip her butterbeer, and just bask in the presence of not only Jo Rowling, but *the* Captain Cindy as well, but as the young girl had sulked, completely dejected out the door, she realized she had to step in. "Excuse me," she dared to approach Jo Rowling, keeping in mind that despite what her mind may hold, she was still just human. "Yes?" Jo asked, trying to figure out why all these strangers kept coming up to her. "Not another greenhorn," Risti heard Cindy mutter, but decided to ignore her. She'd encountered Cindy before, and seen that she could be faced up to. "I was just wondering how many of those you've had tonight?" she gestured towards the nearly empty glass in front of Jo, "Because I think our dear Captain Cindy might be taking advantage of your state of mind." "What?" questioned Jo, confused. "What!" shrieked Cindy, quite perturbed. "Captain, really, I'm ashamed of you," Risti said, knowing her words were going to only antagonize the prideful captain more, "I know you're scared your ship won't survive through the storm, but I didn't think that even you would sink so low as to try and influence the creator of the storm to avoid your corner of the bay." "I hardly think that that's what was going on," Cindy protested. "Oh really?" Risti asked, her eyebrows raised, "George," she called behind the counter, "Sorry to bother you when you're all cleaned up and everything, but do you think you could bring me a canon?" "A canon Miss Risti?" George called from the back, "Why don't you try this for now, I'd just made it up for myself, and I'll get right on that canon." "Thank's George. I think this might just hit the spot," Risti said with a wink to the bartender. It hadn't taken her long to realize just who she needed to know in this port. Taking a sip, there was suddenly a large bang. Cindy will enjoy that, Risti thought, right before the voices started filling the room. "And she told you that your predictions were `scarily close,' isn't that right Mattie. So what kind of things did you predict?" The voice then changed from the artificial woman's voice with a twinge of fake British accent to that of a young boy. "Well, I heard that the next book is called Order of the Pheonix. I figure, what with Voldemort coming back and all, crazy things are going to happen. Muggles are going to get into the wizarding world." Risti took another sip of her drink as the other two around her tried to comprehend what had just happened. "So? Your point?" Cindy asked, obviously trying to sound sure of herself, but Risti could detect the shakiness creeping into her voice. "Tell me Cindy," Risti drawled, "Where does the little boy mention an invasion?" "Well, maybe he doesn't use the word invasion, after all, he's just a little kid, but he said clear as day that Muggles are going to get into the wizarding world. Clearly that means that they're going to come in as an army that Flich organized and-" "Miss Risti," George interupted Cindy's argument, "Here's your canon. All ready now." "Thank you George, you've always had perfect timing," Risti told him with a smile. She noticed that both Cindy and Jo held their breath as she took the first sip. Just like before, there was a loud bang before voices suddenly filled the air. "So you don't think I'm a match for Lucius Malfoy?" said Mr Weasley indignantly, buyt he was distracted almost at once by the sight of Hermione's parents, who were standing nervously at the counter that ran all along the great marble hall, waiting for Hermione to introduce them. "But you're Muggles!" said Mr Weasley delightedly. "We must have a drink! What's that you've got there? Oh, you're changing Muggle money. Molly, look!' He pointed excitedly at the ten-pound notes in Mr Granger's hand The voice died out for a moment before continuing again But it was a subdued group who headed back to the fireside in the Leaky Cauldron, where Harry, the Weasley's and all their shopping would be travelling back to The Burrow using Floo powder. They said goodbye to the Grangers, who were leaving the pub for the Muggle street on the other side. Mr Weasley started to ask them how bus stops worked, but stopped rather quickly at the look on Mrs Weasley's face. "Mmm, Chamber of Secrets, pages 47 and 52, British edition, very good choice George," Risti said as if nothing had happened. "That," Risti turned back to the group at the sound of Jo speaking, `That's my voice!" she said in disbelief. "Yes, it is," Risti told her with a comforting smile. "See? You didn't write yourself into a corner. You left room for Muggles to come into the wizarding world." "I suppose I did," she trailed off, still sounding unsure, "But I really hadn't planned on it happening." "Well, not that I wouldn't love to see Arthur Weasley's Muggle loving nature turn out to save the day because he thought to involve Muggles in the fight against Voldemort, but you really don't have to. Oprah, surprisingly, left you a scape-goat." "She did?" Jo asked incredulously, "How ?" "Well, all she ever said was that you said Mattie's predictions were scarily close. I don't know if you actually did tell the kid any lies, or what your definition of scarily close is, but in my opinion, and probably that of most fans, it means that what Mattie sprouted out on national television could be mistaken." "You're right!" Jo said excitedly over top of Cindy's grumbles. "I don't have to do anything that little kid suggested to me. I can easily get out this one. That may not have been the case if the kid had decided to mention-" Both Risti and Cindy's ears perked up to pay close attention to what Jo was about to say. "Oops, almost spilled the beans there," she said with a sheepish grin, "Wouldn't you have just loved that. Well, thanks for the fun ladies, but I'd best be going. I have a lot of writing to do, you know." "But Jo, what about the Bang?" Cindy suddenly erupted as if she couldn't hold it in anymore. "There's no bang in dismissing what that kid said. After all, isn't that what the whole series is about? The Bang?" Jo stopped and looked at Cindy, carefully thinking out her next words. "Captain Cindy, I think that no matter what I write, you at least will be able to find `the Bang' in it. That is, if your ship survives." Her last words were laced with a hint of threat. "What do you mean?" Cindy asked warily. "You know exactly what I mean, Captain Cindy. The storm is coming. Your world will change. I can feel it the water, see it in the earth, smell it in the air. Much that once was will be lost, for few shall live to tell the tale." With that she turned to leave. "Wait, Jo, will you ever come back to Theory Bay again?" Risti asked hopefully. "I think I just answered that question," said Jo, and with that she walked out the door. "Alright ladies, I kept the place open a bit late due to our special visitor, but I really should get home to the Missus before dawn," George told them from over the counter. "We understand George," Risti told him, ready to drag Cindy out of their if she wouldn't go herself. She followed quietly however, and the two walked in silence until they reached the point where Cindy's massive ship was docked. "Who do you think you are, anyways?" burst Cindy in a tone that made Risti think she had been wanting to say it all night. "You come here, just to convince Jo that she doesn't have to follow our theories? You don't even have a boat of your own, you don't belong here!" Risti looked at the heavily fortified boat that Cindy was about to board. "She really does have you scared, doesn't she?" "What's that supposed to mean?" Cindy snapped at the young woman in front of her. Risti decided that a change in topic might be best. "You know, I really do think that muggles coming into the wizarding world, or even invading it as you might call it would be a mighty cool thing. I thought so as soon as I heard the kid mention it, and I wondered if it would come up here. I just don't think that we need to add any stress onto Jo's life by trying to force her to write the book our way. The storm's going to come, and no matter how well we prepare for it, no one knows who's going to survive, and who's going to drown." Risti paused for awhile. She had a feeling that underneath that image as a confident Captain, Cindy was as scared, and at the same time in anticipation of the coming storm as the rest of them. "No, I don't have my own ship. One of these days, when I get one built sturdy enough I might venture out onto the sea, but for now I prefer to just visit other people's ships, and make some friends there. Maybe one day, if the winds are right, I might even take a visit aboard your ship. I really do enjoy a good bang as much as the next person, you know." ~Risti, who is quite proud of her second foray into Theory Bay, and hopes that she won't get yelled at too much for daring to challenge *the* Captain Cindy... From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Nov 2 20:08:33 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 20:08:33 -0000 Subject: Classist Hogwarts (was ... was .... was...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021029151144.04d33520@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46018 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "James P. Robinson III" < >>> My argument is that class does have a role in Hogwarts admission. It is certainly not the only factor. I would further that by saying that I believe Hogwarts turns out adults prepared to enter, at least, an upper middle WW class (e.g., the MoM rather > than the Knight Bus). In my mind, this does make Hogwarts elite. <<< I think it's a misapprehension that Hogwarts is elitist because it trains people to be government and professional workers, and government and professional workers constitute an elite class. This is not the case in a modern economy, and despite its medieval trappings, this is what the Wizarding World has. In the Wizarding World, as in modern real-life US and Britain, the largest single employer appears to be the government. In such an economy, some government jobs are elite, but most aren't. It's very prestigious to be an MP or a Senator, but there's a whole army of regulators and paper-shufflers who'll never make the society pages. If ministry clerks and professional service providers (curse-breaker, dragon-handler) are the majority in the WW, they can only regard themselves as an elite class in the same sense that the majority of drivers suppose they are better than average. Even Voldemort seems to want slaves so he can torture and kill as he pleases, not because he needs cheap labor to run his factories or work in the fields. The Wizards don't need comprehensive schools. How would they develop a class of workers whose children needed to be kept off the streets while the parents are working in factories, or who had to be taught trades because they were no longer needed on the farm? Considering that the magical/mystical garden is a staple of myth and fairy tale--were Werewolves first created by evil wizards to guard their crops of fluxweed during the full moon?-- wizards have probably always grown their food by magical means. Even Hagrid manages this, and he's not terribly skilled. And all their manufacturing seems to take place on a small scale, too. Perhaps the goblins are simply too conservative to finance large ventures. It doesn't follow that because Harry is concerned about his finances, all students must pay full tuition. There could be a sliding scale for Hogwarts tuition and board: wealthy students like Potter, Malfoy and Justin Finch-Fletchly have to pay in full, poor students like Creevys, Weasleys and Riddle don't. That leads to the paradoxical canon situation in which Harry has to worry about his tuition while the Weasleys only struggle to pay for their books and supplies. Surely Fred and George would be begging to be sent to a cheaper school if there were one--it would save the family money and they don't want to work for the ministry anyhow. There is additional canon support for the idea of Hogwarts as the only wizarding school for those who cannot afford to study abroad. I mention it here only because I don't think I've seen it before: The Sorting. Being placed in an unsuitable House would hold no dread if there were some alternative way to study magic. Indeed, Hermione and Malfoy don't seem terribly worried: they have parents who can afford to send them abroad. For Ron, on the other hand, being sorted into Slytherin would be the End (I'd've got the train straight back home.) According to JKR, the reason for making Hogwarts a boarding school was logistics rather than social commentary. She needed to have her characters abroad at night and boarding school made that easier. Where would our poor shippers be if she'd made the trio siblings instead? It may be at odds with some readers' conceptions, but there are real life examples of children being boarded in the service of anti-elitist ideals, such as the Children's Houses of the Israeli Kibbutzim. James P. Robinson again: >>Let's also remember that, at least at one time, Lucius Malfoy dominated the Hogwarts Board of Governors. Would he have had anything to do with a non-elite institution?<< The boards of charitable institutions are usually rife with blue bloods--that's how they're financed. Lucius Malfoy wants Hogwarts to be classist, and used the board as a means to that end. Remember, he would have preferred to send Draco to Durmstrang, which has a more selective admissions policy. Pippin From jodel at aol.com Sat Nov 2 20:11:36 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 15:11:36 EST Subject: Salazar Slytherin and the Chamber of the Basilisk (was;-oh come on) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46019 Chris writes; << I'm not convinced that Sythenin was evil in the sense the Voldemort is. For all we know, he left the school and set up his own somewhere else. >> Founded Durmstrang. I like this idea! To me, one of the major flaws in the Harry Potter series (there aren't many, but there are a couple) is that the tight focus on Harry's own experience and the limits of viewpoint the reader is given from being so deeply embedded in it means that as long and detailed as the information we have is, we seem to get no sense of a living, developing history for the wizarding world as Rowling has presented it. For all her slinging around of blythe statements about; "A thousand years ago..." we get no real impression that wizards, in general, at any point in their history, ever thought, acted or believed in any manner other than they do today. This is sound insofar that, no, human nature does not change. But human thought, and human perception certainly do. Harry is going through a very deep process of learning to recognize and evaluate the nature of good and evil. But he is dealing spcifically with the face of evil as it presents itself today. Rowling has not found it necessary to blur the image she show by allowing the considerations that the face, if not the nature of evil changes over time as much as anything else in human civilization does. We have been denied the luxury of being given a historical context. We have been told that Slytherin wanted to bar Muggle-born students from attending Hogwarts Acadamy. We have been told that the other founders having overruled him on this issue was the reason for his breaking with them and leaving the school. We are deliperately given the impression that Slytherin was motivated in this by the same sort of blind, unthinking, unsupported prejudice displayed in the current era by Malfoy and his ilk. While this is not impossible, I find it very difficult to swallow. I am too aware that conditions and prevailing viewpoints change in a thousand years to be able to accept that simplistic a summing up of the events. This is, IMHO, the very *worst* sort of history. (Rowling's presentation of the wizarding world's treatment of the subject of History throughout is dismissive, disrespectful and just plain BAD. I am suspecting that she has a reason for this which will ultimately be made known to us.) Without any solid context, it is impossible to know why Slytherin was opposed to the admission of Muggle-born students. Yes, he could have been a spiteful old bigot. He could have just as easily been a paranoid in the style of Mad-Eye Moody and saw Muggles in mobs as a serious threat who must be given no clue that the school existed. He could have been a half a dozen other things. We only know that he opposed their admission and that when he was overruled by the bold (and possibly rash) Gryffandor and the other founders, he refused to work with them any more and left. (In a high-perch dudgeon.) Something which no one seems to have brought up so far is the fact that a basilisk is a magical creature which is created artificially. (And in Rowling's interpretation appears to be immortal until killed.) Slytherin did not find, he *created* that basilisk. We do not know why and we do not know when. We could come up with any number of possible scenareos. 1. He was in the process of creating a basilisk for an unspecified project. The basilisk hadn't hatched yet when he was "forced out" and it was an internal Slytherin family story that said that it was left behind for his heir. In a thousand years of telling the story mutated and details (like the location of the Chamber) were lost. 2. He decided to create a basilisk (a monster which he knew he could control) to use against the other founders and thereafter run the school as he saw fit. He was forced out before it hatched. Family story as above. 3. He had already created the basilisk, either for an unknown project or just because he could (Note: Rowling has shown us ample evidence that wizards can have a really skewed notion of what is appropriate). A basilisk is not a kneezle, you can't just casualy take it traveling about with you around Europe. He put it into an enchanted sleep and left it in the Chamber, antcipating that one of his decendents would someday find and revive it. Family story as above. In any event, while Tom Riddle, who we've *seen* is as mad as a hatter, seems eager to reason backwards to "prove" that everything HE considers important *must* have been what Slytherin considered important because he is Slytherin's *heir*, I am less than totally convinced of that as well. (Note: even Riddle's *anagrams* are biased. How the hell likely is it that his mother actually named him "Tom" rather than "Thomas"? Huh? Especially if he was named after a Muggle father.) Speaking of the "Heir" of Slytherin; does it occur to anyone else on the list that by this time, through cumulative exchanges of blood, power, very specific magical gifts and even some of his original personal qualities Harry has enough on his account to make at least a viable claim to be considered as *one* of Slytherin's heirs? What if this hypothetical "Prophesy" that Voldemort is trying to stamp out was of the "Mirror, mirror on the wall" variety, stating that HE might be the last *decendent* of Salizar, but that Slytherin had another *Heir* who would supplant him? Wouldn't it be just too, too terribly in accordance with tradition if every action Voldemort has taken to escape this fate has contributed instead to bringing it to fulfilment? -JOdel (who remembers the Kipling punch line; "A pot is a pot, and I am the son of a potter!") From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 2 20:45:01 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 20:45:01 -0000 Subject: Reason Why Potter Line Theory is Not a Problem (WAS: 'Potter Line' problem) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46020 Ing ("ingachristsuperstar") wrote: > OK, I've always been partial to the idea that Voldie was going > after the "Potter Line" in total because he believed they posed > him some kind of specific threat (as the descendents of > Gryffindor or otherwise). I've liked it because it explains a lot > of the 'loose ends' floating around the series, like why LV was > willing to spare Lily. > > But I just realized a problem with this. Within this theory, > sparing Lily would make no sense. > > Why? - Because how did LV know that Lily wasn't pregnant? Now me: Well, if Voldemort had intelligence that the Potter line was a threat to him, he could have had intelligence that the Potter line would bring about his downfall at a certain point in time (like, around Halloween of 1981). This would explain why he went after the Potters when he did, instead of pursuing them earlier or later. If the Potters who were living at the time of his threatened downfall were the only ones who were an actual threat to him, it would explain why it wasn't important whether Lily was pregnant. This line of thinking is especially appealing in that if Voldemort hadn't pursued his perceived threat, he wouldn't have met his downfall in Harry. Evil people have a tendency to be their own downfall - take recent events in the Washington, D.C. area (U.S.) where a sniper was randomly killing innocent people but gave himself away in the process of proving that he was in fact the guilty party (in order to receive a $10 million pay-off). I like the "Harry as Heir of Gryffindor" theory. Voldemort could have received intelligence that the Heir of Gryffindor would be his downfall (around Halloween 1981), but he didn't know who the Heir was, so he went about killing all of Gryffindor's descendants (hence, the reason why James and Harry were the targets and why Lily was spared, as well as why Harry sees the dead "Potters" in the Mirror of Erised). This theory certainly has a basis in historical literature (the Bible) - King Herod set about killing all of the babies born around a certain time in an attempt to kill Jesus. In this theory, since Harry is the actual Heir, he has Gryffindor's power in him which caused the AK to backfire and Voldemort to lose his powers, as well as saving Harry's life in the process. ~Phyllis who hasn't been able to be here in awhile, and has missed y'all terribly! From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sat Nov 2 20:46:55 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 20:46:55 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Salazar Slytherin and the Chamber of the Basilisk (was;-oh come on) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46021 Jodel: "Founded Durmstrang. I like this idea!" Thanks, but I had something a little different in mind. Lets assume that SS is not evil in the same sense as voldemort, but he is deeply concerned about the future of both Hogwarts and the barely born wizarding world. We don't know how much Hogwarts contributed to the creation of the modern WW, but I'd bet that it was very importent. After all, its training the next generation of wizards. Now, SS, GG, et al have created this school, which must repersent a vast investment in time and effort for four wizards, and GG wants to risk that by inviting everyone with magical potential, even if their parents are magic haters and would destroy the school given half a chance. They might have argued, HH and RR backed up GG, and, not in anger, but in sorrow, SS left Hogwarts (pausing to add a bit of himself to the sorting hat) and went off somewhere else. I am wondering now if Dumstrang was founded by SS, but I doupt it. As for the baslick, it may have been left behind quite by accident, he may have remembered that it was there the day he left, but he had too much pride to go back and recover it, having to face the founders when he did. We have no proof that he made the creature, but he could have captured it. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Sat Nov 2 20:49:42 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 20:49:42 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Filch's Double-Cross In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46022 "Eileen, are you all right?" "Do I look all right, Cindy?" shrieks Professor Eileen Lucky-Kari, downing another glass of mulled mead. "It's not about Oprah, is it?" begins Cindy. "Because to tell the truth, I was being rather tongue-in-cheek there." "IT IS NOT ABOUT OPRAH!" screams Eileen, smashing the glass on the table. "IT'S ABOUT GEORGE!" Captain Cindy sighs. She had known this would eventually happen. Getting involved with George has never been a good idea. Elkins has tried time and again to warn the Bay about his Don Juan ways, but will anyone listened to her? "AND IT'S YOUR FAULT!" screams Eileen, louder than any Howler. "IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT!" "Woah! Calm down there. What's my fault?" asks Cindy. "Y-y-you told George to see Melody home." "You wanted her to walk home by herself? Shame on you, Eileen. How jealous can you get? It's a dangerous world out there. She might be accosted by Elkins, for heaven's sake!" "You know that George can't help flirting with any girl he comes within five feet of," says Eileen accusingly. "Yes. You should be used to it by this point." "I could have dealt with that. But then what he said to Risti." >"Alright ladies, I kept the place open a bit late due to our >special visitor, but I really should get home to the Missus >before dawn," George told them from over the counter. "He's been married. The whole time he's been married and he's been leading us all down the garden path. I will never, ever date a Snapetheory again!" "I think that's a safe resolution," said Cindy. "How many personified Snapetheories do you know? But, Eileen, how do you know George was telling Risti the truth? Maybe that's just his spiel to get rid of the guests." "Maybe." "On the other hand, there's other nice guys out there. Have you ever thought of dating Avery?" "Avery doesn't have auburn hair," says Eileen stubbornly. "Ah, but he has chocolatey brown eyes. No, that's not good enough? Look, forget the mulled mead. Drown your sorrows in Filch speculation." "Cindy, Risti's right. You're on the wrong track." "How dare you cross me?" cries Cindy. "All these new TBAYers have gone to your head. You may call yourself tough, but you're just a big softie. Have you ever used Cruciatus on a fellow listie?" "Err... no," said Cindy. "Do you regularly chain people to the walls of your deprogramming rooms below deck?" "Err... no." "The only unforgivable thing you've ever done is Imperio'ed your professor for an A+. You can't touch the achievements of the great ones: Elkins and Tabouli. You sent me off to Azkaban, and then changed your mind a few minutes later, and held a re-trial. You know, you're like Melody's appraisal of Filch." "I don't know why you think you can get away with this." "I sailed under Captain Tabouli for several months. I know what real piracy is, and you practice some watered-down version of it. Anyway, about Muggles getting into the wizarding world. There's a very easy answer and it has nothing to do with invasions." "Well, forget that!" cries Cindy. "I wanted something bangy!" "Oh, this is bangy, all right! Do you remember what JKR said about a character who will do magic late in life?" "Filch!" cries Cindy. "That's very likely," says Eileen, "but I really don't like it. That has no bang, Cindy. Filch learns to do magic. Who cares? He's not an interesting character. It'll be all heart-warming, most of the audience will be weeping tears of joy, and you and I'll be impatiently pushing on for the great Avery moment. Even if he saves Harry, it doesn't have bang. So, the other two candidates here are always Petunia and Dudley Dursley. Both of whom could very well end up getting into the wizarding world. If either of them was to magic, that would be bangy as well. And JKR has suggested that there may be a redemption scenario for Dudley down the road. "There's a lot of things coming with the Dursleys that you wouldn't expect," didn't she say, more or less? And she said she felt sorry for Dudley, b/c he has been abused? Well, that's my theory and I'm sticking to it. Excuse me, I need to go and have a talk with George." "I'm sure it'll be all right." says Cindy, looking at her worried. "He can't really have been serious about the "Missus." "That'd better be so," says Eileen. From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 2 21:16:19 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 21:16:19 -0000 Subject: Harry Has Exceptional Powers (WAS: Harry's power *random thoughts*) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46023 Julie ("jastrangfeld")wrote: > I'm just wondering. How strong are Harry's powers, such that he is > able to defeat Voldemort, even in weakened states, and do what he > does? Now me: Oh, yes - Harry has exceptionally strong powers. We see them again and again - his uncommon resistance to the Imperious Curse (as you mentioned); his uncanny ability to know when he's being watched (in the maze, on Magnolia Crescent, etc.); his prescient dreams; speaking Parseltongue; the ability to throw a successful Patronus Charm. And, of course, the fact that he's escaped Voldemort three times so far. My personal theory is that Harry is Gryffindor's Heir and has inherited these exceptional powers from Gryffindor. Visionary powers and the ability to know of events happening at faraway places were traits St. Godric exhibited, and I think the fact that Gryffindor's first name is "Godric" is a clue JKR is providing us that when Harry displays these powers, he is demonstrating that he is in fact the true Heir of Gryffindor. Julie again: > I'm still willing to believe that somehow Dumbledore is involved > here. Is it possible that Harry is actually being trained > to replace Dumbledore in the long run? Me again: I like David Colbert's thinking on this (in his book "the Magical Worlds of Harry Potter"): "It's possible - even likely - that Dumbledore has a larger plan for the defeat of Voldemort. That design could very well call for a one-on-one duel between himself and the Dark Lord, as a prelude to a final conflict between Voldemort and Harry" (p. 58). I think Dumbledore is grooming Harry for this "final conflict," because Dumbledore knows that Harry is Gryffindor's Heir and is therefore the only wizard powerful enough to bring about Voldemort's complete defeat. Unfortunately, I believe Dumbledore will die during the "one-on-one" duel Colbert references, and that this death is the one JKR said would be the most upsetting to her. Dumbledore's death will then pave the way for Harry's ultimate defeat of Voldemort, and of Harry filling the void left by Dumbledore's death in the wizarding world. ~Phyllis From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sat Nov 2 21:31:50 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 13:31:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] end of Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021102213150.99721.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46024 energizermummy wrote: Anyone ever theorize re: the end of the Dursleys? After all, LV and followers are not the only villians in HP. I can imagine a possible scene in year 7, where a miserable Dudley acknowledges to Harry the same jealousy he has of him as Petunia had of Lily. Although Petunia self describes it as hatred, it really is jealousy- how proud her parents were of the witch in the family. Me: I don't know about that. The Dursleys are complex. On the surface, JKR seems to have been inspired by such Roald Dahl undesirables as the nasty aunts in "James and the Giant Peach" (who were run over by said giant peach) and the Wormwood parents in "Matilda" (who wind up running from the law). However, JKR has done something far more complicated than create people we love to hate; the Dursleys also serve a purpose. They are the source of Harry's protection, an ironic twist when you consider that the most anti-Muggle wizard there is, Voldemort, can't touch Harry because he's in the care of the most anti-magic Muggles there are. Consider also the fact that Snape was at first considered to be a viable villain by Harry and Ron, who later learned that he had saved Harry's life and that he was a spy for Dumbledore. Despite this, he hates Harry, purportedly because James Potter saved his life. Just as JKR seems to have deliberately drawn parallels between Dudley and Draco Malfoy, she may also be drawing parallels between Snape, an unlikable character who nonetheless protects Harry, and the Dursleys, equally unlikable folks who also serve to protect Harry. While James saving Snape's life occurred in the past, it may be that Harry will have occasion to save the Dursleys some time in the future. I find this far more likely than their getting some kind of comeuppance for making him live under the stairs, as satisfying as that would be, in some ways. After all, although we know that Harry is safe because of being with the Dursleys, are the Dursleys themselves, sans Harry, completely safe? Or could Vernon, say, be targeted by Death Eaters while at the drill factory? Or some other setting? Could Harry wind up saving his abusive relatives with magic some time in the seventh book, turning their expectation (and ours) of a vindictive, vengeful Harry on its ear? We've already seen Harry spare Wormtail, who betrayed his parents. I can see JKR being capable of the kind of ironic twist that would result if the Dursleys owed their lives to Harry and magic. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 2 23:43:50 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 23:43:50 -0000 Subject: The Heir/WW versus MW Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46025 Pippin about the `Dissing the Slytherins Leaving Feast' scene, Chapter 17 PS/SS: > Um, are you saying that if some other House had been leading, > Dumbledore would have curbed his taste for the dramatic? > Because otherwise, I don't see how Dumbledore was being > exclusionist. To be inclusive, Dumbledore has to treat the > Slytherins as if they were just as capable of bearing the > reversals of fortune as anyone else. Actually, yes, I do think Dumbledore would have curbed his taste for the dramatic if another house had been in the lead. Impossible to prove, of course ? though he curbs himself quite nicely when judging in the Triwizard Tournament. The events the Trio and Neville are awarded points for actually took place about a week before the leaving feast. Other examples of points being given or, in the case of Snape, extensively taken away show that points are awarded as close as possible to the event. Dumbledore could have awarded the points in advance of the Leaving Feast ? then made much the same speech, giving the reasons behind the points' award. In fact, in CoS Dumbledore *does* give another massive (and deserved) points award to Ron and Harry for rescuing Ginny. He does it in his office, *as close as possible to the event*. There's a special feast to celebrate ? no speeches are mentioned. So why did he make that dramatic reversal of fortune in PS/SS? He could have employed the same tactics as in CoS ? award Harry such a large number of points that Slytherin would have had no chance of catching up in the week of term remaining. THAT would have been in keeping with school practice, and it would have been fair (after all, Harry was very nearly killed defending the Stone ? and the entire school knew that). One possibility is that he wanted to make sure that Neville got the winning points ? had he awarded a huge number of points to Harry, Neville's points would have only been important to Neville (however, since they would have been the first points he'd won, they would have been important to Neville anyway). Another possibility :: Pip pauses to hear the churning of a DISHWASHER in the distance:: is that he *wanted* to give the Slytherins a sudden, unexpected reversal of fortune. Because he wanted them to talk about it ( and talk about Harry Potter fighting Quirrel? )To go home to their parents complaining bitterly about Dumbledore snatching victory from out of their grasp. Because the Slytherins were *not* treated fairly there, and kids are very quick to complain about unfairness. Yup, as an example to the Slytherins that they are treated exactly the same way as any other house, waiting a week until the final, public Leaving Feast to award points that will lose them the cup is crap. As a declaration of war, it's pretty good. The Voldemort wars restart when Voldemort tries to steal the Philosopher's Stone. Dumbledore is announcing (symbolically) that Voldemort has lost this battle. Harry Potter and the Gryffindors won it. And it is only eight weeks later that Lucius Malfoy responds by planting Tom Riddle's Diary in Ginny Weasley's books. Which is, of course, a complete coincidence. Honest. ********************************************************************* Melody, and the contention that the Wizarding World *should* stay secret from the Muggle World. :: Pip pauses briefly to consider the possible effect of announcing that she doesn't hold with secrecy. Then decides she couldn't possibly expect to get away with it.:: Yes, there are some things that should be kept secret. In fact "Some secrets are necessary" is probably emblazoned on the stones above the Safe House front door.[1] Melody quotes: >> Matthew 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." >> Melody writes: > Which suggests to me, that which is precious guard from those who > would, since not having such a gift, would abuse or fear the gift. > For hundreds of years, Muggles have feared magic. Even in today's > world of modern advances in thought and reason, we still have those > that even fear the idea written in just plain fiction. {mumbled > with a half-glazed look of anguish] Might take root and corrupt all > generations...forever damning out nations...polluting our > streams...destroying perfectly good brooms.... Pip replies: So, is the WW simply keeping their pearls from the muggle swine? There is another New Testament passage to quote back, which is Mark 7 verses 26 to 29. A non-Jewish woman came to Jesus, asking him to heal her daughter. His reply was: >> "Let us first feed the children [i.e. Jewish people]. It isn't right to take the children's food and throw it to the dogs." "Sir," the woman answered "even the dogs under the table eat the children's leftovers!" And Jesus answered "Because of that answer, go back home, where you will find your daughter cured." >> [It is a huge relief to me that God apparently loves a smartarse ;- ) ] So, if the muggles are the dogs, are they getting the leftovers? Is there any sign of it? Or are the wizards keeping all their magic for themselves? Is there any use of magic on muggles in the books so far that is not purely concerned with Wizards either protecting the secret of their existence, or attacking muggles in some way? Dumbledore remarks that Frank Bryce's disappearance is considered unimportant by the Ministry, because he is a Muggle. Do we see any example of wizards *helping* muggles? Spiderman, if I remember the comic books correctly, keeps his identity a secret, but uses his powers for good, trying to protect people. And IIRC, Spiderman is regarded with fear and hatred by the people he is trying to protect. Gandalf protects the Hobbits from the big bad world at the beginning of LOTR, but by the end of it acknowledges that they no longer need him. They are not children ? they have grown up. The WW, on the other hand, seems to want to regard the muggles as children. Children that will never grow up. They, on the other hand regard themselves as the superior adults, despite the fact that other muggle groups who have been regarded with fear, hatred and prejudice have fought back against the people who hold such views, *not* run away. They have demanded their equal place in the world. They have carried on writing the books that others have sought to ban. Melody writes: > Sure the Roberts were a little taken advantage of by the naughty > DE's. > No real harm done though. Since they do not remember, the Roberts' > little lives will continue in ignorant bliss. But you scream, "That > is not fair. They should know. They have a right to know." > Yes, yes. Maybe they should. What good would it have done if the > Roberts had known they were surrounded by wizards and witches who > had powers they never would...and not because they are too noble > to use them either. ;) Even if the Roberts had know about magic, > what couldthey have done? What defenses they have are useless. > They would still be puppets in the air. Just now they would > *understand* what isgoing on. Yes, they would have understood what was going on. And after they got rescued, they would have been able to ask whether the Ministry was making investigations, or had arrested anyone. They would have been able to ask whether people were being punished for an unprovoked attack. They would be able to insist that they should live in a country where people with special powers have to obey the same laws as the people without. And they would know about this coming war that they might get killed in. We are all surrounded by people all the time who have the power to embarrass, hurt or kill us ? anyone with a sharp tongue, anyone driving a car, anyone who owns a gun. We *do* rely on people's self control at all times. We do get killed in wars that have nothing to do with us, personally. As for some people having powers I will never have ? that happens all the time, as well. I'll never run a four minute mile, for example. Or be a chess Grand Master. And as Pippin has pointed out; Magic is not the most important thing in life. Love, and its power, is far more potent. In that most important area, Muggle and Wizard are equal. Melody: > So the Wizard World is at a passing. Let the whole world know they > exist and deal with the whole world of built up prejudice, fear, > and scientific curiosity, or stay hidden protecting their > existence living in relative peace and semi-symbiotic harmony. Are they living in relative peace? Grindlewald, Voldemort ? if they've withdrawn from the Muggle World for self-protection, they seem to be as good as any Muggle at destroying themselves. Harmony? Slytherin versus Gryffindor, Durmstrang versus Hogwarts, a recognition that they would have died out if they'd not married Muggles while simultaneously despising the Muggles and mudbloods who've saved them. > If Harry is to join thetwo worlds, I see a big task in front of > him beyond anything of his background, education, or vision. It's a huge task, which would take many years. But probably not beyond Harry [by the time he reaches eighteen, anyway]. After all, we are *already* asking him to save the world [grin]. Pip!Squeak [1]I'm sure that's what it does say above the Safe House door, but it's been encrypted in a code I can't crack. From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sun Nov 3 00:00:31 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 00:00:31 -0000 Subject: A note on law: (relates to WW Vs. MW) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46026 Just an idle thought. Since the end of the witch triels, the law does not acknowledge the existance of supernataral forces, such as those repersented by the WW. Therefore, if a muggle goes to her government to complain that a curse has been put upon her by a neighbour witch, they'll die laughing. It does not matter weither the witch is 'real' or just a wiccan, they'll still die laughing. Now, if the MW government knows about the WW, they can't change their laws to reflect this, because they'll be laughing stocks. More to the point, how can they catch a fully trained wizard? I don't think they can. Now, its possibly that the effect that magic has upon technology is refected when there's enough technology around, but we don't know that. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sun Nov 3 04:40:31 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 04:40:31 -0000 Subject: Wwwerewolves (was Further speculation on Dates in WW In-Reply-To: <20021030004322.81124.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46027 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barb wrote: > > (she also rewrote werewolf lore with the part about animals not > being in danger from werewolves; legends are full of werewolves > killing farm animals). I always understood that bit about werewolves being a danger only to humans, not animals, to mean that the scent of "human" works on werewolves such that they are consumed by an overwhelming rage and hunger ("bloodlust" for short?) that compels them to mindlessly attack and destroy the human (or their surroundings and eventually themselves, if confined so that they can't get at the human - source of the horrific shrieks in the Shrieking Shack), but contact with (other) animals (hmm, what about veelas, merfolk, giants?) does not drive them into a frenzy. I never thought JKR or RJL was suggesting that werewolves can't kill and eat an animal for hunger, or kill an animal for sport or because it annoyed them. Just that as long as wolf-Remus wasn't driven mad by the scent of human, he could remember that *these* animals were friends, not food. The Shrieking Shack is close to the rest of the village, and they ran around the campus and even into the village, so it seems to me that they must have been catching scent of "human" all the time. So the two beasts big enough to control a fully-grown (and frenzied!) werewolf herded him away from his natural prey, but he must have fought pretty hard against them to get at the humans (as when he fought Sirius after the ill-timed transformation you were just discussing -- he smelled the humans and aimed at them, and Sirius put himself in the way to protect the humans), so they must have gotten fairly clawed and bitten in those fights, so I guess the people who interpret the controversial sentence, above, as meaning that a werewolf's bite is only *infectious* to humans not animals are also right. (Being killed by the werewolf isn't harm, but being infected with lycanthropy is harm.) From catlady at wicca.net Sun Nov 3 04:53:10 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 04:53:10 -0000 Subject: The voice in Harry's head In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46028 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" wrote: > Has anyone had any thoughts on the voice in Harry's head? Yes. > Now my question is the voice: > > c. a part of his father still living in him? > I believe it is a part of his MOTHER still living in him -- I believe that Lily used her last moments to do Something to put an image of herself into baby Harry's mind, so that in all those years with the Dursleys, when Harry was alone in his cupboard, he had an Imaginary Mum, kind of like an Imaginary Friend, to comfort him and tell him he was loved and explain to him how decent people behave (which he would not have learned from Dursleys), which is how he managed to have a sense of honor and fairness and kindness despite his upbringing, which was much lacking in examples of honor or fairness or kindness (except maybe on TV shows and in school books). And for evidence, I cite that canon *says* he heard a voice in his head telling him to disobey the Imperius, which in my theory was Lily's voice. My other "evidence" is that he is always obsessing about his father, trying to find out more about his father, and never wondering about his mother -- he doesn't need to wonder about her, because she's right there inside his head. Now, it certainly qualifies as voluntarily dying for love, if/that she spend her last moments and last magic doing something to protect her baby instead of directly attacking V or trying to defend herself, but I admit that in the situation, she would have been far more concerned to protect him against AK than against Dursley foster parenting. So I think that whatever she did to put the image of her in his head was instinctive, unplanned. And others would say it was a side-effect of something she did to protect him from AK. From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sun Nov 3 01:11:08 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 02:11:08 +0100 (CET) Subject: Puzzling Dursleys(Re: end of Dursleys) In-Reply-To: <20021102213150.99721.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021103011108.48989.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46029 Barb wrote: ?Just as JKR seems to have deliberately drawn parallels between Dudley and Draco Malfoy, she may also be drawing parallels between Snape, an unlikable character who nonetheless protects Harry, and the Dursleys, equally unlikable folks who also serve to protect Harry.? That reminds me two sequences from PS/SS and GoF, I don?t know if they have been commented yet. They puzzle me since my first reading of the series. In PS/SS, Uncle Vernon declares to Hagrid: ?We swore when we took him in we?d put a stop to that rubbish,( ) swore we?d stamp it out of him!? (quote from Bloomsbury edition, p 43). Does he want to criticise the wizarding world, or does he want to protect his nephew? At first glance, the first explanation could be the right one, for the Dursleys hate and despise magic. However, it could be also a protective reaction. We don?t know what was in the letter Dumbledore left to the Dursleys the night he decided to choose them as Harry?s guardians, but we can assert they knew how the Potters died when Petunia says about Lily: ? she went and got herself blown up ? (op.cit, p 44). Vernon Dursley doesn?t want Harry back to the WW because he knows it means danger, particularly death danger. Of course, he wants to protect his family; he doesn?t want to suffer an attack from any kind of wizard. But why doesn?t he tell it to Hagrid instead of talking about Harry? He doesn?t say, for example: ?We swore we wouldn?t have any contact with the WW?. He says ?(we) swore wed stamp it out of him?, as if he were talking about a disease, or a malediction he had to stop, as if he wanted a ?normal? life for his nephew. Why does he say twice ?swore?? This is not a light word. Why does he use it about Harry if the boy doesn?t mean anything to him? I?m not saying there the Dursleys have to be absolved; they are unforgivable in the way they abuse Harry. However, I can?t help thinking Vernon?s reaction is very odd. Of course, if we consider the Potter series shares many points with legends and fairytales (I don?t remember who quoted Joseph Campbell) we can say that?s the classical opposition the hero has to face when he?s about to begin his adventures; there?s always someone to tell him he?d better stay where he is. And it?s obvious the Dursleys, ?proud to say they are perfectly normal?, don?t want anything to perturb their own representation of normality, so they don?t accept their nephew to be quite the opposite. Nevertheless, JKR put those words in the mouth of Uncle Vernon, and they make me wonder whether there?s only hatred in Vernon?s opposition to Harry going to Hogwarts. It?s obvious he?s a mean guy, but is he mean so that he would be able to put deliberately his nephew?s life into danger? A friend of mine told me one day that what she likes in JKR?s writing is her sense of uncertainty. We never can say firmly: ?That?s it, this character, this event have to be interpreted in that way?. I?d like to add this is also the way baroque authors used to write. That?s also why I enjoy her books. Back to the Dursleys, more precisely to Aunt Petunia in GoF. Barb points out parallels between Dudley and Malfoy (that?s right; according to a psychoanalyst who wrote an essay about Harry Potter, they are the two faces of a same figure). Did anyone notice the parallel she drew between Petunia and Lily in GoF? When Arthur Weasley wants to sort Dudley out from Ton Tongue effects, ?advancing on him with his wand outstretched? that?s what JKR writes about Petunia: ? Aunt Petunia screamed worse than ever and threw herself on top of Dudley, shielding him from Mr Weasley?. It?s a burlesque scene, but the fact is Petunia acts just the same way Lily did when she wanted to protect Harry from Voldemort. Though Petunia is as mean as Vernon, she?s got the same protective instinct as Lily?s. She doesn?t understand Arthur Weasley only wants to help Dudley, and considers magic as a terrible thing. She doesn?t think about herself when she sees that her son is in what she believes to be danger and ?shields? him. For the first time in the series, we don?t see her as a shrew, but as a loving mother, ready to sacrifice herself for her son. For the first time, the caricature turns into a tragically figure. Of course we laugh at reading the scene. But the moment when Petunia reproduces Lily?s reaction facing a menace changes its whole perspective and our perception of the character. Hem At least that?s my point of view. Maybe the forthcoming book (quousque tandem, JKR, quousque tandem!) will prove I?m completely wrong Iris --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sun Nov 3 05:07:42 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 05:07:42 -0000 Subject: Do All Students Travel to Hogwarts by the HE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46030 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tamara" wrote: > It would seem kind of silly for students who live in Northern > England or Scotland to have to travel all the way down to London > just to go back again. Do you think there is an alternate way to > get to Hogwarts for those who live closer? This was answered in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/26288 in September 2001, when Edis Bevan quoted "Introduction to Muggle Studies. (Extracts) Travel and space Understanding how Muggles see how the world connects up is a big problem for Wizarding people. We have to let go of a lot of our assumptions to grasp how limited Muggle perceptions can be ? but understanding this is vital for an understanding of how the Wizarding world can exist unperceived alongside the Muggle world. As an example take travel to Hogwarts school. A Muggle given a simple explanation of (for example) the Hogwarts Express, the ban on apparating in Hogwarts, the apparent inability to link to the Floo network, and the apparent inability to fly in by broomstick from long distances away will be in considerable confusion. Why for example do Hogwarts students have to go to `London' to catch a train to Hogwarts? The answer, immediately obvious to anyone with a knowledge of the basics of Magical Geometrics, will so thoroughly confuse Muggles that they will spend years arguing about contradictions and logical impossibilities and come to no (Muggle) sensible conclusion whatsoever. Exercise 3B in the associated workbook of this chapter will take you step by step through how Muggle Geometrics work to show you how they get to that peculiar state of mind." From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 3 06:36:12 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 06:36:12 -0000 Subject: WW versus MW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46031 Pip, rocking on her heels, had that certain *glint* in her eye. She had painted Melody into a hard corner. Seems Mel has underestimated Pip's grasp of the sanctified writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. >From a desire for the union of the MW and WW, Pip takes the position that they can and should live in harmony for the better of both civilizations. Secrecy, while needed in some situations for the safety of all persons involved ;) , is not necessary in this case. Pip quotes: > Mark 7:27-29 > "Let us first feed the children [i.e. Jewish people]. It isn't right > to take the children's food and throw it to the dogs." > "Sir," the woman answered "even the dogs under the table eat the > children's leftovers!" > And Jesus answered "Because of that answer, go back home, where you > will find your daughter cured." Pip then wrote: > So, if the muggles are the dogs, are they getting the leftovers? Is > there any sign of it? Or are the wizards keeping all their magic for > themselves? Hmmm, only other Bible passage I have found that include dogs and pigs (our muggles) is the one where a legion of demons are cast into a herd of pigs...but that really has nothing to do with this discussion. After I posted before, I thought about how harsh I was being to the muggles. Pigs and dogs are, after all, thought to be the lowest and unclean of all the animals by the Jewish people who the parables are intended. But with this new verse, I think the comparison is quite proper. Dogs, in this case, are the non-Jewish populace. The exact population that the Jews feel more "superior" than. To say that these "dogs" deserve even the little "scraps" left over from the excessive giving on the Jews, Jesus was blessing the inclusion of the non-Jewish populace...well, at least the "believing" portion. Since we are using this verse and I currently can't find a counter, I want to work within it. The scraps weren't given upon first request. It took much persuasion and finally a bit of a quick tongue to get those scraps. In Matthew 15:22-28, a short pre-story to the previous verses is given: A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. <> Now, if the woman did not persist and prove her faith, then Jesus had no intent to shared those scraps. After all, the bread is to feed the children not dogs...though I am glad there is enough "bread" for the non-Jewish dogs as well. :) So, to tie this in, some Muggles do know that the WW exists, but they do not push for the WW to be accepted into the MW. They can benefit from its "scraps" if they so wish and are believers, or rather - supporters, of magic. Lily turned teacups into rats for her family. The MW government is on speaking terms with the WW. Hermione talked to her parents about shrinking her teeth. Those in the know and on good terms can benefit, but do not say anything. Is there an agreement they signed saying that they will never talk about the WW with strangers? Pip wrote: > Is there any use of magic on muggles in the books so far that is > not purely concerned with Wizards either protecting the secret of > their existence, or attacking muggles in some way? Dumbledore > remarks that Frank Bryce's disappearance is considered unimportant > by the Ministry, because he is a Muggle. Do we see any example of > wizards *helping* muggles? Hmmm, only time I find is when Arthur helping the Dursleys clean their living room area after the Floo powder incident and that really is because it was his fault. Well, he also shrank Dudley's tongue, but that too was to fix his son's prank. Both incidences did protect the WW secrecy, but frankly, Arthur did not have to help. He did it because he was nice and does want to help them. Muggles can also use the owls to post. Hedwig brings Harry his Christmas gifts from the Dursleys. Granted this is not magic, but it is an incident where the WW and MW blend when a member of the MW knows of their existence. As for Frank Bryce, the WW is not concerned not because he is a dead *muggle*, but because they do not see the parallel or even possibility that he could be a dead muggle murdered *by a wizard*. To the WW government, Voldemort is gone and dead as evident by Fudge's attitude at the end of GoF. Since Voldemort is gone, in their eyes, Frank could of only died because of causes not related to the WW. Only because Dumbledore knows that Voldemort is still a threat does he keep a watch on old Frank Bryce and the Riddle manor. But there is no time where a witch goes and helps a woman cook her dinner. No wizard there to freeze a mugger on the street. When a dementor comes around a muggle, they do not have the defenses a wizard can have even though the dementor has the same effect. It doesn't seem fair. I agree. But since we do know that not all in the WW are selfish, it seems to me that there must be a bigger reason why they truly believe that muggles do not *need* the benefits of their powers. If a muggle did *need* magic, then I am sure the likes of Dumbledore would share his gift. Yet, he does not work to join the two worlds. He, above all wizards, would see the advantages and disadvantages of combining the worlds, yet we have no evidence that he is working to join the worlds or "out" the WW. Pip states: > The WW, on the other hand, seems to want to regard the muggles as > children. Children that will never grow up. They, on the other hand > regard themselves as the superior adults, despite the fact that > other muggle groups who have been regarded with fear, hatred and > prejudice have fought back against the people who hold such views, > *not* run away. Good point. The saying "In a blind world, the one-eyed man is king." comes to mind. If the WW has such a tremendous gift compared to the MW, who don't even have a comparable one, they are superior. Maybe not in mind and petty jealousies, but the muggles are blind comparably. Why don't the wizards take over the world? They have the advantage, don't they? As you wisely pointed out, simple muggles have managed to change the minds of other muggles. They held their ground and changed the world. Why are the wizards so afraid of unity? What is keeping them from joining with these "children"? Hmmm, I have no answer. It does sound a bit elitist. Like a neighborhood that wants only those around that understand their views and problems. But is that prejudice or is it wanting to relate to others like themselves? If they were to join the MW, I guess they could still do that but just in their own cities kind of like the Amish. But if the WW lived like the Amish, connected yet separate, what would keep those who do not have magical abilities from wandering in and demanding magic solutions. People leave the Amish alone because they are just like us...just have different views. The WW is not an ideology. They have something we don't. They *are* different, and there is *nothing* we can do to be like them. I still say the reason why the worlds are kept separate and in the dark is for the WW protection. The MW would overwhelm them with requests and desires. Sure it would be kind if the worlds united, but it is a little too ideal to think the muggles would just stare and that is all. Be content to go back to their little lives knowing magic does exist and they will never have those powers nor will they ever have access to it. The prejudice and feelings of superiourity are quite natural. Try and find a pocket of people anywhere that do not fall prey to vanity and ignorance. Yes, though the ignorance could be helped. It is a long process, but one that could and should be taken. If anything, at least within the WW if not in a joined one. Pip wrote: > And as Pippin has pointed out; Magic is not the most important thing > in life. Love, and its power, is far more potent. In that most > important area, Muggle and Wizard are equal. How can I possibly argue that Love is not as important as Magic? Love is like oxygen. Love, lifts us up where we belong. All we need is love. **Sheepishly smiles** Sorry, I'm watching Moulin Rouge right now. *Sigh*, Ewan is so dreamy. :) Yes, the MW and WW are united under the bonds of love. They are also united under the bonds of just plan humanity. Magic is a power and that is all. As proven in PS/SS, love is stronger than Power. So is love to unite the worlds? I don't see where Harry has ever loved the Muggle world or has been treated well in it. What reason does he have to unite them? He is completed only in the WW. I originally wrote: > > So the Wizard World is at a passing. Let the whole world know they > > exist and deal with the whole world of built up prejudice, fear, > > and scientific curiosity, or stay hidden protecting their > > existence living in relative peace and semi-symbiotic harmony. Pip stated: > Are they living in relative peace? Grindlewald, Voldemort ? if > they've withdrawn from the Muggle World for self-protection, they > seem to be as good as any Muggle at destroying themselves. Harmony? > Slytherin versus Gryffindor, Durmstrang versus Hogwarts, a > recognition that they would have died out if they'd not married > Muggles while simultaneously despising the Muggles and mudbloods > who've saved them. Actually, I meant the relationship between MW and WW. Between those worlds there is relative peace and semi-symbiotic harmony. We see no problems between the worlds other than shared fear and wonderment. Both governments are on speaking terms and do listen to the others advice (well at least on the MW side). Independently, both worlds have their inner problems. WW-Grindlewald. MW-Hitler. But mostly, they are living in harmony. Melody From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sun Nov 3 11:52:30 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 11:52:30 -0000 Subject: Filk: Here's Looking Through You Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46032 Here's Looking Through You A paean to the Hogwarts ghosts, to the tune of "I'm Looking Through You," by (who else?) the Beatles Hear a version at http://audio.cdbaby.com/ramb/megon2-03.ram, or better yet, go buy Rubber Soul--whassamatta you? Dedicated to Caius Marcius, the filkers' Muse HARRY, HERMIONE, and RON, at Nearly Headless Nick's Deathday Party, raise a glass to toast their ghostly host: Here's looking through you Tonight's your night We'll tell Sir Patrick That you're a fright After half a millennium, you still look fab Too bad your head wasn't left on the slab (MYRTLE appears) HERMIONE: You're looking lovely (sotto voce) Though your skin's not clear You float above me Grumbling in my ear (to HARRY and RON:) She's a member of the ungrateful dead If only she'd been turned to stone instead! (to PEEVES:) Why, tell me why did you tell her my diss? Now where am I to go to when I need to take a piss? (CUT TO CS chapter 11. Nick is floating immobile and horizontal next to a petrified Justin) HARRY: I'm looking through you Post Tom-attack You're in a stew, you `re seriously black We didn't know that one could croak Twice in one lifetime and fill with smoke. STUDENTS to HARRY: Why are you at this school, for goodness sakes? We should stay far away from anyone who talks to snakes We're looking through you Suddenly aware: Ol' You Know Who-oo Knew you were the Heir You were a hero, but now you've changed We're looking through you, you're not the same Harry, you've changed! etc. and fade out Amy Z be gentle with me--it's my filk debut From the.gremlin at verizon.net Sun Nov 3 17:06:28 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 17:06:28 -0000 Subject: MWPP, Houses, and Quidditch Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46033 Okay, suppose James, Peter, Sirius, and Remus were in different Houses. Would the friendship and loyalty of four 11 year olds be able to overcome the competiveness of Quidditch? If Sirius was in Slytherin, like some people suspect he was, then how would he handle the rivalry between Gryffindore and Slytherin at Quidditch matches? We know James was on the Quidditch team. Granted, we don't know what year he started, but I don't think Sirius would be able to sit back and take it if his best friend's House won the Quidditch cup. And, was Sirius ever on the Quidditch team? If James and Sirius were such good friends, you'd think they'd both share a love for playing Quidditch. And how would the other three friends feel if one of them won the House Cup? And if Siruis was friends with a Gryffindor, he teasing from other Slytherins would be horrible. If he lost any points for the House as a result of his tramping about with James, the teasing would be downright malevolent. Of course, some could argue that that would fuel the prank, especially since Snape would probably be the head of that teasing. One last thing: Are Hufflepuff doomed forever to sit on the sidelines and watch the more prominent Houses fight for the glory? Will Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw ever win ANYTHING that doesn't constitute someone having to die? =Acire, who could use some Peppercup Potion right now...where's Snape when you need him? From dwalker96 at aol.com Sun Nov 3 12:48:11 2002 From: dwalker96 at aol.com (energizermummy) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 12:48:11 -0000 Subject: Do All Students Travel to Hogwarts by the HE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46034 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tamara" wrote: > > > It would seem kind of silly for students who live in Northern > > England or Scotland to have to travel all the way down to London > > just to go back again. Do you think there is an alternate way to > > get to Hogwarts for those who live closer? > Donna replies: I had thought of that, surely Seamus Finnegan isn't traveling all the way to London just to go North again. However, IMO I think the answer is in GoF. We learn there are all sorts of spells and enchantments to prevent Muggles from discovering the castle, and much of the same to prevent other Wizards from discovering its location. It was kept shielded and private from the other wizarding schools. So, keeping one standard means of arrival for all students seems a security device. Not to say that you couldn't use floo powder, or older students couldn't apparate to platform 9 3/4. Donna From talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 3 17:09:42 2002 From: talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com (Darla) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 17:09:42 -0000 Subject: Pupils choose school- or school chooses pupil? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46035 Hey everyone, Just a small question about something that's been bugging me. In one of the books (G of F, i think) Malfoy mentions in a conversation that his father had wanted him to go to one of the other wizarding schools (i forget which one) because of their emphasis on the dark arts, but that his mother wanted him closer to home, hence his attendance at Hogwarts. From a comment J.K. Rowling made in an interview about Hogwarts drawing up names of pupils by magic, i always assumed it was the school that picked the pupil... I mean, it must be pretty strong magic to be able to draw up a list of all the magical children close to it. (at least, i assume it works geographically). So do you think it's possible for a wizard (Malfoy) to apply else where, when the names are already picked and listed? Darla. From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 3 18:23:00 2002 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 10:23:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pupils choose school- or school chooses pupil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021103182300.91097.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46036 --- Darla wrote: > So do you think it's possible for a wizard (Malfoy) to apply else > where, when the names are already picked and listed? I don't see why not. It wouldn't be any different from a private school or university that has selective admissions, but the final decision of where you attend is up to you. When I applied to university, I was "on the list" of ten different schools, but in the end *I* was the one who chose where to go. So as long as Draco met the admissions requirements at both Hogwarts and Durmstrang, I don't see any reason why he wouldn't have been permitted to choose. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 3 18:36:34 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 18:36:34 -0000 Subject: MWPP, Houses, and Quidditch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46037 Acire wrote: > We know James was on the Quidditch team. Granted, we don't know what > year he started, but I don't think Sirius would be able to sit back > and take it if his best friend's House won the Quidditch cup. I don't see why Black couldn't handle being happy for James' victory yet sad that his house lost. It is just a silly cup. My only knowledge to compare it to is in American college football. Many of my friends and I went to different universities within the same conference, so we all met on the football field once a year...literally actually. We were all in the marching band. So even though we cheered for different sides, I was kind of happy for my friends' teams if they won (which was normally the case with my university). I have a lot of pride and do cheer strong for my school, but even with strong innate school rivalries like the one between Gryffindor and Slytherin, true friends can manage to stay good friends. They just have more to tease each other and have a pride flag to wave when their team wins. Acire next asked: > And, was Sirius ever on the Quidditch team? If James and Sirius were > such good friends, you'd think they'd both share a love for playing > Quidditch. While I don't like to draw parallels between Ron/Harry and Sirius/James, I think it works nicely here. Ron and Harry both love Quidditch. I would even say Ron loves it more or at least knows more. He does have his room decorated in that horrid orange confection. Now even though Ron does not play for the school, he does cheer loudly for Harry. Granted they are on the same side, but it is widely known they are such good friends. I see a parallel with James and Sirius here. Sirius obviously knows James' skill on a broom, so I think it is safe to say that they both shared the love for the game. Even if they were in different houses, I would think, and hope, the others would expect Sirius to support James even while cheering his house. Now whether or not Sirius was a house player, well, it is hard to say. We have no evidence to either case. I think Sirius can play Quidditch like Ron can but was not on the team. He just flirted with the girls in the stands while James was not around to compete for their attention. ;) Acire asked another question: > One last thing: Are Hufflepuff doomed forever to sit on the > sidelines and watch the more prominent Houses fight for the glory? > Will Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw ever win ANYTHING that doesn't > constitute someone having to die? I think Gryffindor and Slytherin win all the time because they are the more aggressive houses. The principles of Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff are founded upon are passive traits. The seekers of wisdom and patient toilers often are lost in the pagentry of civalry and drive of the power-hungry. Maybe the fault is in the system of awarding points. Melody From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun Nov 3 19:05:04 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 11:05:04 -0800 Subject: Ironic series ending -- Ex-famous Harry? Message-ID: <1743981923.20021103110504@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46038 I had an odd dream last night that suggested to me an ironic ending to the series: Suppose that in the end the MoM manages to keep all events from Voldemort's rebitrh to Harry's final defeat of him completely hushed up, or to convince the WW it was all merely the crazed hallucinations of a lunatic boy with glasses, and the werewolves, jailbirds, one-eyed paranoids, and obsolete old dingbats he regularly hangs out with? What if, in other words, the fame of "Famous Harry Potter" ends when he actually does something to earn him fame (defeats Voldemort alone); and perhaps the only elder wizard who retains his credabiity in the WW at Large, and who ever comes to Harry's defense is... Wizard 1: Poor Harry Potter! Who would have thought such a nice boy could go so terribly wrong! Wizard 2: They say he actually believes he fought and destroyed Voldemort last year, when everyone knows he was destroyed 17 years ago! Wizard 1: Ah... Well... At least as the eccentric Headmaster of Hogwarts he will be isloated and out of our hair. The WW can be thankful of that, anyway. Snape: You shut up about Potter! He is the finest and bravest boy I ever knew! (Are my ideas getting ever crazier as the wait for _OotP_ gets longer and longer...?) -- Dave From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 3 19:05:12 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 19:05:12 -0000 Subject: Pupils choose school- or school chooses pupil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46039 Darla asked: > So do you think it's possible for a wizard (Malfoy) to apply else > where, when the names are already picked and listed? Now me: In Ch. 4 of PS/SS, when Harry (finally) receives his Hogwarts acceptance letter, it says "We await your owl by no later than July 31." I always assumed that meant that the witch or wizard in receipt of such an acceptance letter was being asked to reply as to whether or not she/he was accepting this invitation (by July 31). If this is correct, it implies that this invitation could be denied and the witch or wizard could attend a different institution of wizarding education. Or of Muggle education - in Ch. 6 of CoS, Justin Finch- Fletchley tells Harry that he decided to go to Hogwarts instead of to Eton. ~Phyllis whose reply owl would have been overwhelmingly in the affirmative From cindysphinx at comcast.net Sun Nov 3 19:13:01 2002 From: cindysphinx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 19:13:01 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Filch's Double-Cross In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46041 "George! She's waking up!" Cindy fought to open her eyes, dimly aware of the thin smear of sweat between her cheek and the leather sofa. She saw the outlines of several people standing around her, but her vision was too blurred to make out their faces. She shut her eyes against the bare halogen bulb that hung from the rafters overhead. The howl of the coming storm was soon drowned in the feverish pounding in her head. "Where am I?" she croaked. "What happened?" "Don't try to move," George said quietly. "You had a bad night. You did *way* too much theorizing. We were really worried." Cindy rubbed her eyes, and her vision cleared enough to recognize Melody, Risti and Eileen. Risti looked nonplussed, but Melody was ashen and shaking. Eileen's eyes were puffy, and she bit her trembling lower lip. "You could have *died!*" she whispered. "I don't remember anything," Cindy asked, struggling to sit up. "What . . . . what did I say? What did I *do*?" "Oh, you were out of control, that's for sure," Risti said flatly. "You were knocking back shots with JKR, spinning some insane Filch theory. And then when she left, you just wouldn't stop. You -? you kept right on theorizing. And then you -?" Melody's voice died in her throat. Risti sighed impatiently. "You finished off JKR's leftover ale." "I . . . I drank JKR's *backwash?*" Cindy asked. She pressed her hand to her forehead and collapsed back onto the sofa. "Oh, I think I'm gonna be *sick!*" "Yeah," Melody said, "and you had this whole theory about how Filch will be the Pied Piper of the muggle world and -- " "Oh no!" Cindy gasped. "Tell me I didn't use the words 'Pied Piper!' For all that is Good and Holy, please tell me I did not call my theory 'PiedPiper!Filch!' 'Cause Elkins will never let me live it down!" "No, you didn't," said Risti. "But you hacked up the theory pretty good, because you thought that the Oprah kid said the muggles would 'invade' the wizarding world, and he never said any such thing." "He didn't?" Cindy sat up again, this time swinging her feet to the floor. "Well, that doesn't matter. The theory itself is perfectly sound. Whether the kid used the word 'invade' isn't important." Risti folded her arms across her chest. "Oh, the kid said nothing of the sort, Cindy. You were *way* off. The kid said 'crazy things are going to happen' and 'muggles are going to get into the wizarding world.'" "'Get into.' 'Invade.' Makes no difference," Cindy said with a shrug. "The point is that there's going to be an increase in muggle/wizard contact. So far, there hasn't been much meaningful contact between wizards and muggles. The Grangers have twigged to the wizarding world and have even visited Diagon Alley. Fudge has been in contact with the muggle Prime Minister about Sirius Black. The Dursleys know plenty, but the Robertsons don't remember a thing. "That's important, see. That suggests to me that whatever contact there will be between muggles and wizards in OoP will be different in character from what we've seen so far. And having Filch double- cross the wizarding world would certainly be different." "Hang on," said Risti. "I'm not buying this whole Oprah thing. In my opinion, what the kid spouted out on national television could be mistaken." "Uh, you want JKR to come right out and say that cute little kid is a *liar?*" Cindy said in disbelief. "Come, come now! She told the kid that he was 'scarily close.' No way can she ignore the whole muggle/wizard thing now. Nah, she's boxed in, all right. Besides, you know that canon George brought out -? that whole scene where Arthur Weasley talks to the Grangers in Diagon Alley?" "Yeah?" "BORING!" cried Cindy. "I mean, why would JKR even *bother* to put something that dull in the next book at all? Voldemort will be back! Unforgivable Curses will be flying! Dementors will be sucking souls out of anyone who stands still too long! Snape will be spying, the Old Crowd will be gathering, Wormtail will be crushing things with his silver hand. And with all that Banging, JKR is going to have the Grangers window shopping in Diagon Alley again, explaining electricity and money to Arthur Weasley? Nah, I just can't see it." Cindy bent over, her head between her knees as she fought a sudden wave of nausea. "I just know that Filch is the key here," she said in a muffled voice. "Filch has been around for all four books, right? But what has he *done* that matters? That is a very important clue. Think about the characters who have been around since the first book. The trio, Dumbledore, Snape, McGonagall, the Dursleys, Pettigrew, Voldemort, the Weasleys -? and Filch. The list is not long at all, and all of these characters have figured into the plot in some critical way so far ?- except Filch. Are you telling me that Filch is being mentioned again and again for no good reason?" "Nah, I think you're wrong about Filch," said Melody. "You said that Filch hates the students. I think that is a bit harsh. He may be intensely jealous of them, but to out and out hate them? We always see Filch threatening the students and jeering at them, but has he ever done anything against any student beyond his normal job? Filch is just a joke because he never backs his threats up." "Oh, I don't know about that," Cindy said quietly. "Filch ?- Filch is downright dangerous, and he'd kill if he had the power and half the chance. Take a look at CoS, 'The Writing on the Wall.'" ********** "What's going on here? What's going on?" Attracted no doubt by Malfoy's shout, Argus Filch came shouldering his way through the crowd. Then he saw Mrs. Norris and fell back, clutching his face in horror." "My cat! My cat! What happened to Mrs. Norris?" he shrieked. And his popping eyes fell on Harry. "*You*!" he screeched. *You!* You've murdered my cat! You've killed her! I'll kill you! I'll ?" *************** "Now look at Filch's reaction there," said Cindy. "All he knows is that something happened to Mrs. Norris. There is an enormous crowd of students all around. The trio 'stood alone in the middle of the corridor,' and they aren't even near Mrs. Norris. But what does Filch do? He jumps to the conclusion that Harry killed Mrs. Norris! He doesn't accuse Ron, Hermione, Draco or any of the other students. No, he goes right after The Boy Who Lived, and he threatens to *kill* Harry! That shows that Filch is not only irrational and murderous, but that he doesn't revere Harry the way others in the wizarding world do. Makes me wonder about Filch's loyalty to the wizarding world, it really does." Eileen stopped dabbing at her eyes. "Cindy, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you know the bit about how Filch will learn to do magic late in life? Magical!Filch is a Dud, Cindy! Filch learns to do magic. Who cares? He's not an interesting character. It'll be all heart-warming, but even if he saves Harry, it doesn't Bang. So, the other two candidates here are always Petunia and Dudley Dursley. Both of whom could very well end up getting into the wizarding world. If either of them was to magic, that would be bangy as well. And JKR has suggested that there may be a redemption scenario for Dudley down the road. 'There's a lot of things coming with the Dursleys that you wouldn't expect,' didn't she say, more or less? And she said she felt sorry for Dudley, because he has been abused? Well, that's my theory and I'm sticking to it." "There you go with the 'redemption' thing again. You have a real weak spot for redemptions, you know that, Eileen?" "So what if I do? Magical!Petunia and Magical!Dudley have way more Bang potential than Filch." "Oh, I beg to differ," said Cindy. "Heck, go ahead and make all three Dursleys magical if you want. Where's the Bang there? Dudley comes to Hogwarts and eats? Petunia comes to Hogwarts and makes a pudding? Vernon gets red in the face and stops selling drills? The Dursleys are a giant three-headed Dud. At least Filch knows the soft underbelly of the wizarding world. The Dursleys don't know much of anything that could make a difference in the war against Voldemort." "Maybe so, Cindy," Eileen said. "But everyone knows that no Filch theory is complete without a Mrs. Norris angle. Tabouli has established FLIRTIAC as something close to canon fact. The thing is water-tight. And in the face of FLIRTIAC, you haven't even mentioned Mrs. Norris as part of Turncoat!Filch." "Mrs. Norris?" Cindy repeated. "Oh, that's *easy.* Mrs. Norris is a cat. A plain old boring cat. She's not part kneazle. She's not an animagus. She didn't drink some Kitty Gro potion. Nope, Mrs. Norris is just your garden variety, furniture-scratching, litter-box- filling, hairball-hacking feline. "Did ya hear that, Tabouli?" Cindy threw her head back suddenly and called out to the heavens. "MRS. NORRIS IS JUST A PLAIN OLD EVERYDAY HOUSE CAT!" There was a white flash of lightening and a thunderclap that shook the windows. The halogen bulb flickered and buzzed in the eerie silence. George took a step backward and swallowed. "Uh, maybe we'd better call it a night. I kept the place open a bit late, but I really should get home to the Missus before dawn," he said. Eileen gasped and advanced on him, her hands balled into fists. "You're *married?* You've been dating me and flirting with every skirt in town, and you're *married! Why, you low-down, cheating, two-timing -? " "Relax, babe," George laughed, easing his bare arm around Eileen's shoulders. "Who said anything about marriage? The Missus isn't my wife. I mean, me? Married? That would just be so *wrong!* No, the Missus is my red convertible, remember? And like I said, it's getting late." He shooed the others out the door of the Tavern and flipped the deadbolt behind him. "Would you like a ride, Eileen? Come on, it'll be a blast. I'd like you to teach me a little something about redemption, if you have the time." Cindy ************ For an explanation of the theories in this post, check out Hypothetic Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% 20Files/hypotheticalley.htm and Inish Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 From catlady at wicca.net Sun Nov 3 20:28:41 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 20:28:41 -0000 Subject: WW versus MW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46042 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > If a muggle did *need* magic, then I am sure the likes of > Dumbledore would share his gift. Yet, he does not work to join the > two worlds. He, above all wizards, would see the advantages and > disadvantages of combining the worlds, yet we have no evidence that > he is working to join the worlds or "out" the WW. Dumbledore reads the Muggle newspapers and keeps up with what Muggles are doing, and I don't recall him saying anything patronizing about Muggles. He may well believe that wizarding folk have much to learn from Muggles, but not bother saying so because no wizard would believe him and he has more immediate struggles. It is less clear that Muggles need anything from wizarding folk: we already have our own bigotries, class system, poverty, cheating, etc. Our technology already does some things their magic apparently doesn't (television, mobile phones, Internet) and is working on doing all the things their magic does (yes, on regrowing bones and nerves and so on, altho' I doubt we'll get Apparation (Strek transporter) and time travel). Anyway, it seems to me that Dumbledore, in his great age and enlightenment, has a non-standard idea of "need": people don't *need* to stay alive, they need to live and die honorably and go on to "the next great adventure"; people don't *need* to defeat Voldemort (or whatever current great Dark Wizard), they need to try their damndest to defeat him honorably and leave stories that will encourage future generations to fight heroically against Dark Wizards. It's kind of a long view of things: "in the long run, everybody dies" and "this, too, shall pass." For selfish little people like me, it is a terribly gloomy viewpoint: I want *me* to be happy, not want me to be heroic so that future generations might be happy. Christians cheer it up by believing in rewards in an afterlife. Speaking of which, probably it's just me, but, Melody, I found the post to which I'm replying just a bit too Christian for my taste .... > Why don't the wizards take over the world? They have the > advantage, don't they? (snip) > I still say the reason why the worlds are kept separate and in the > dark is for the WW protection. The MW would overwhelm them with > requests and desires. I put these two quotes together for one answer: Yes, the worlds are kept separate for WW protection. Protection from Muggles persecuting and killing them, not protection from Muggles overwhelming them with requests. The latter is the self-praising fable wizarding folk tell their children, but Binns the historian knows better(Binns, CoS: The Founder "built this castle together, far from prying Muggle eyes, for it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much persecution."). It seems to me that wizarding education is as full of lies to brainwash children into socially correct adulthood as Muggle education. Probably the story of Wendilyn the Weird isn't exactly a *lie*, but the Flame-Freezing Charm is a distraction from the fact that the wizarding folk were really scared of the Muggles -- Flame Freezing Charm only protects from being burnt when you have your wand, and never protects from being drowned, or hanged, or badly damaged by torture -- QTTA says that Abraham Peasegood was one of many wizards who emigrated to the North American colonies in hope there would be less oppression of magic folk there .... It seems to me that their whole big deal of despising Muggles is part of a pattern of denial. Unwilling to admit that they are scared of Muggles, they build up and up and up their claim that Muggles are inferior. From catlady at wicca.net Sun Nov 3 20:41:13 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 20:41:13 -0000 Subject: MWPP, Houses, and Quidditch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46043 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ats_fhc3" wrote: > One last thing: Are Hufflepuff doomed forever to sit on the > sidelines and watch the more prominent Houses fight for the glory? > Will Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw ever win ANYTHING that doesn't > constitute someone having to die? JKR has set it up that Hufflepuff almost never wins anything: that statement about Cedric bringing glory on Hufflepuff House such as it had not known for several hundred years. However, it seems to me that Hufflepuff House would win *sometimes* -- in real life, hard work does help a sports team win, especially if that year's Slytherins aren't all that talented at cheating and that year's Gryffindors are a bit clumsy -- in real life, there are people with talent who are hard-working and honorable more often than once (Cedric) in several centuries ... And the Ravenclaws should rack up the points for schoolwork in most years. From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sun Nov 3 20:48:12 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 15:48:12 EST Subject: Flying over Hogwarts (was:Re: Do All Students Travel to Hogwarts by the HE? Message-ID: <183.113dfdf5.2af6e58c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46044 In a message dated 03/11/2002 17:28:29 GMT Standard Time, dwalker96 at aol.com writes: > However, IMO I think the answer > is in GoF. We learn there are all sorts of spells and enchantments to > prevent Muggles from discovering the castle, and much of the same to > prevent other Wizards from discovering its location. It was kept > shielded and private from the other wizarding schools. So, keeping > one standard means of arrival for all students seems a security > device. It has struck me recently that with all the protections guarding Hogwarts - the inability to dis/apparate, the crumbling ruin disguise and all the other implied but unstated charms guarding the Castle - just how very odd it is that Charlie Weasley's friends can just fly in on their broomsticks, pick up Norbert and fly off again. Or, indeed, that Sirius can just fly of the premises on a Hippogriff. What is the point of an anti-apparation charm, when you can simply fly in and out unnoticed under cover of darkness? And how did Charlie's friends locate Hogwarts? Even if they'd been students there, they presumably would always have travelled there by the Hogwarts Express. If the location is secret, then it is secret and known only to a limited few. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From egress.geo at yahoo.com Sun Nov 3 18:42:00 2002 From: egress.geo at yahoo.com (egress.geo) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 18:42:00 -0000 Subject: Classical Literary names in HP (how many can you list) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46045 Melisant Bolestrode -Bolestrode is a primary villain in Shelley's Middlemarch. Alastor Moody-Blake poem enitiled ALASTOR, which is translated to mean "alone and solitary" L'estrange-17th century melancholy poet Severus Snape-The roman emperor Severus was a mystic obsessed with mystery cults in libya and egypt. thats 4 off the top of my head... "egress.geo" From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun Nov 3 22:38:17 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 14:38:17 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ironic series ending -- Ex-famous Harry? In-Reply-To: <1743981923.20021103110504@mindspring.com> References: <1743981923.20021103110504@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <18516776300.20021103143817@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46046 Sunday, November 3, 2002, 11:05:04 AM, I wrote: DH> Wizard 2: They say he actually believes he fought and destroyed DH> Voldemort last year, when everyone knows he was destroyed 17 years DH> ago! Sorry -- Just realized this line should have read: Wizard 2: They say he actually believes he fought and destroyed *You-Know-Who* last year, when everyone knows he was destroyed 17 years ago! :) -- Dave From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 3 22:45:00 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 22:45:00 -0000 Subject: WW versus MW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46047 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > Melody: > > If a muggle did *need* magic, then I am sure the likes of > > Dumbledore would share his gift. Yet, he does not work to join > >the two worlds. He, above all wizards, would see the advantages > > and disadvantages of combining the worlds, yet we have no > >evidence that he is working to join the worlds or "out" the WW. >> Catlady replies: > > Dumbledore reads the Muggle newspapers and keeps up with what > Muggles are doing, and I don't recall him saying anything > patronizing about Muggles. He may well believe that wizarding > folk have much to learn from Muggles, but not bother saying so >because no wizard would believe him and he has more immediate >struggles. It is less clear that Muggles need anything from >wizarding folk: we already have our own bigotries, class system, > poverty, cheating, etc. Our technology already does some things >their magic apparently doesn't (television, mobile phones, > Internet) and is working on doing all the things their > magic does (yes, on regrowing bones and nerves and so on, altho' I > doubt we'll get Apparation (Strek transporter) and time travel). Non - tangible things, I think. I argued in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/45981 on this thread that the removal of magic, and magical creatures from our world has deprived us of a great sense of - wonder? mystery? A sense that there are things in the world beyond the everyday? I agree that in some ways we don't need their magic (though quidditch would be a fantastic spectator sport, which would probably make millions in TV rights)- but are the Dursley's so deeply unpleasant *because* they want nothing beyond being 'perfectly normal, thank-you'? Let's make this clear - uniting the two worlds is either going to be a) a complete accident, caused by Voldemort and his Death Eaters committing acts so devastatingly atrocious that the existence of Wizards *cannot* be hidden from muggles any longer, or b) a post- Voldemort project [hence outside the scope of the seven novel series] which the Trio have realised is necessary by the end of Book Seven. I don't think either Dumbledore or Harry are going to have the *time* before Voldemort is defeated. After all, Harry has his OWLS and NEWTs to think of as well. That, with saving the world from Voldemort, is going to make up a pretty full timetable. :-) > > Anyway, it seems to me that Dumbledore, in his great age and > enlightenment, has a non-standard idea of "need": people don't > *need* to stay alive, they need to live and die honorably and go > on to "the next great adventure"; people don't *need* to defeat > Voldemort (or whatever current great Dark Wizard), they need to > try their damndest to defeat him honorably and leave stories that > will encourage future generations to fight heroically against Dark > Wizards. Despite this, he has tried like heck to keep Harry alive, and is currently trying hard to defeat Voldemort. I think there is a difference between saying 'people don't *need* to stay alive' and saying that 'sometimes there are things that people need *more* than staying alive' - which is closer to Dumbledore's viewpoint IMO. > It's kind of a long view of things: "in the long run, > everybody dies" and "this,too, shall pass." For selfish little > people like me, it is a terribly gloomy viewpoint: I want *me* to > be happy, not want me to be heroic so that future generations > might be happy. Very personal decision, that. Going back to on-topic canon, how happy do you think Lily would have been had she, for example, decided to accept Voldemort's offer of sparing her life if she would only stand aside and let him kill Harry? I think Lily's sacrifice was partly a decision that she was not going to stand by while her son was killed - she would far rather *die*, even if it only delayed Harry's death by seconds. Fighting for her son's life was more important to her than staying alive. > Christians cheer it up > by believing in rewards in an afterlife. > Speaking of which, probably > it's just me, but, Melody, I found the post to which I'm replying > just a bit too Christian for my taste .... Melody was replying to a post or two of mine, ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/45981 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/46025 )in the first of which I mentioned several times that the argument was being based on Christian Theology (and quoting New Testament passages is also a pretty good clue that we're relating HP to Christianity). Discussing canon from the viewpoint of any religion is allowable - I remember a particularly good post once where the (Buddhist)poster discussed whether Dumbledore was in a Buddhist state of enlightenment. And there was a major discussion of the 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' line in Exodus some months ago, where Jewish, Christian and Pagan viewpoints were used. [Besides, it gives the Mods ulcers, which is always fun ;-)] Melody: > > > Why don't the wizards take over the world? They have the > > advantage, don't they? (snip) > > I still say the reason why the worlds are kept separate and in > > the dark is for the WW protection. The MW would overwhelm them > > with requests and desires. > Catlady replies: > I put these two quotes together for one answer: Yes, the worlds > are kept separate for WW protection. Protection from Muggles > persecuting and killing them, not protection from Muggles > overwhelming them with requests. The latter is the self-praising > fable wizarding folk tell their children, but Binns the historian > knows better(Binns, CoS: The Founder "built this castle together, > far from prying Muggle eyes, for it was an age when magic was > feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much > persecution."). > > > It seems to me that their whole big deal of despising Muggles is > part of a pattern of denial. Unwilling to admit that they are > scared of Muggles, they build up and up and up their claim that > Muggles are inferior. Agreed. I think the DE torturing and killing of Muggles for sport is a way of gaining control over, and revenge for, this fear of Muggles. Which is why I think the WW would actually be a lot healthier in itself if it decided to face the Muggle prejudice, hatred and fear of magic openly, and fight for a place in the world. They've run away. They've hidden. And, as you say, the adults realise this. *Why*, for example, can't Arthur Weasley spend a few hours in the Muggle pub at Ottery St Catchpole, if he's so interested in muggles? Not as if it would be terribly complicated, once he's changed some money at Gringotts. "And what do you do, Mr Weasley?" "Oh, I'm a minor civil servant. Very boring, really. Spend all day reading applications for import licences." But no. No contact whatsoever. The postman doesn't even know where the Weasley's *are*. And so the Malfoys and the Voldemorts, frightened that Muggles will destroy them and the power base they have built up, or resentful of Muggle treatment towards them, have fear and ignorance of Muggles to build on. To misquote Moody: 'Frightened people are so easy to manipulate' Pip From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Nov 3 23:39:29 2002 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 18:39:29 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ironic series ending -- Ex-famous Harry? Message-ID: <9c.28d70e71.2af70db1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46048 In a message dated 11/3/02 2:05:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, DaveH47 at mindspring.com writes: > I had an odd dream last night that suggested to me an ironic ending to > the series: Suppose that in the end the MoM manages to keep all events > from Voldemort's rebitrh to Harry's final defeat of him completely > hushed up, or to convince the WW it was all merely the crazed > hallucinations of a lunatic boy with glasses, and the werewolves, > jailbirds, one-eyed paranoids, and obsolete old dingbats he > regularly hangs out with? What if, in other words, the fame of > "Famous Harry Potter" ends when he actually does something to earn him > fame (defeats Voldemort alone); and perhaps the only elder wizard who > retains his credabiity in the WW at Large, and who ever comes to Harry's > defense is... I actually had an odd dream that something similar happened. In my dream, after Harry defeated Voldemort and perished in the fight, everyone forgot everything. No one remembered the Reign of Terror, the Death Eaters, or The Boy Who Lived. I think that that would be a great way to end the series. Well, perhaps not *great* but better than "He defeated LV and lived happily ever after with Ginny Weasley." To keep this on-topic: Does anyone think that Harry & Co. should've told someone that Lockhart didn't really do those things? He's still getting credit for al those things his books are about. More pressing: what happened to Lockhart? Any ideas? ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ (Who just got dumped by her boyfriend yesterday and has been reading Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone in Spanish since then.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elfundeb at comcast.net Mon Nov 4 00:42:50 2002 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 19:42:50 -0500 Subject: Millicent Bulstrode (WAS: Classical Literary names in HP References: Message-ID: <001201c2839b$1aab5200$3a3b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46049 Correcting and elaborating on one of egress.geo's literary names: Melisant Bolestrode -Bolestrode is a primary villain in Shelley's Middlemarch. Middlemarch was written by George Eliot, not Shelley. However, I think Middlemarch is unquestionably the source of Millicent Bulstrode's name, I picked up on the similarity of her name to Nicholas Bulstrode on myfirst reading of PS/SS. Millicent hasn't had much of a role in HP, as it turns out, but IMO she was very appropriately sorted into Slytherin, as Nicholas Bulstrode's life history fits the Sorting Hat's description of Slytherin house ("those cunning folk use any means to achieve their ends") to a T. What follow are MIDDLEMARCH S P O I L E R S In Middlemarch, Nicholas Bulstrode was a prosperous banker and supporter of philanthropic causes. Unknown to the Middlemarch community, he had come by his wealth by (i) working as a pawnbroker, then becoming a partner in the business, (ii) upon the death of his partner, marrying his elderly widow, (iii) paying off the person who had located his wife's long-lost daughter whom the wife wanted to leave her fortune to, so Bulstrode himself would inherit the money, and (iv) when, many years later, the person he had paid off arrived in Middlemarch, ill, alcoholic and penniless and threatening to reveal Bulstrode's past, Nicholas Bulstrode offers to watch over him in his illness/delerium tremors and feeds him alcohol, which kills him. Sounds like the worst of Slytherin, doesn't it. The book ends with Bulstrode's reputation, though not his fortune, in ruins. Sometimes, however, I think Nicholas Bulstrode does not resemble Millicent so much as one Lucius Malfoy. Perhaps we'll hear more of the Bulstrodes and their relationship to the Malfoys. Debbie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Mon Nov 4 00:57:49 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 00:57:49 +0000 Subject: Ironic Ending/Lockhart In-Reply-To: <9c.28d70e71.2af70db1@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021104004755.00984e10@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 46050 At 18:39 03/11/02 -0500, SnapesSlytherin at aol.com wrote: >I actually had an odd dream that something similar happened. In my dream, >after Harry defeated Voldemort and perished in the fight, everyone forgot >everything. No one remembered the Reign of Terror, the Death Eaters, or The >Boy Who Lived. I think that that would be a great way to end the series. >Well, perhaps not *great* but better than "He defeated LV and lived happily >ever after with Ginny Weasley." What, a sort of mass Memory Charm? I'm not so sure I like that idea. Although I must admit it does hold *some* kind of weird attraction. >To keep this on-topic: Does anyone think >that Harry & Co. should've told someone that Lockhart didn't really do those >things? He's still getting credit for al those things his books are about. >More pressing: what happened to Lockhart? Any ideas? He went off to Saint Mungo's, and according to JKR at the time of GoF's release, he's still there. :-) I think that she also said in a follow-up answer that he won't be back. On the other hand, as we'll probably get to meet Neville's mum and dad at some stage, it would be nice to look in on poor Gilderoy ranting in his padded cell, still wondering who he is. :-) As for your other point, I think the end of CoS made it clear that at least Dumbledore knew that G.L. was a fraud (and the majority, if not all, Hogwarts teachers at least suspected it), so there really wasn't anyone to tell. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who is going to have to take a break from HPFGU for the next week to get on with a work project which needs to be finished, and would like to invite everyone to shoot flames if he turns up before Monday 11th. :-) From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 4 02:48:36 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 02:48:36 -0000 Subject: Flying over Hogwarts (was:Re: Do All Students Travel to Hogwarts by the HE? In-Reply-To: <183.113dfdf5.2af6e58c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46052 Eloise wrote: > It has struck me recently that with all the protections guarding > Hogwarts - the inability to dis/apparate, the crumbling ruin > disguise and all the other implied but unstated charms guarding the > Castle - just how very odd it is that Charlie Weasley's friends can > just fly in on their broomsticks, pick up Norbert and fly off > again. Or, indeed, that Sirius can just fly off the premises on a > Hippogriff. > > What is the point of an anti-apparation charm, when you can simply > fly in and out unnoticed under cover of darkness? And how did > Charlie's friends locate Hogwarts? Even if they'd been students > there, they presumably would always have travelled there by the > Hogwarts Express. If the location is secret, then it is secret and > known only to a limited few. Now me: And Harry and Ron flew onto the Hogwarts grounds in the Anglia; the Durmstrang students bubbled up from the middle of the lake on their ship; the Beauxbatons students flew in on their carriage; Sirius walked onto the grounds as a dog; Crouch Sr. also walked onto the grounds...the list of *wizards* who have been able to get into Hogwarts via alternative methods than the Hogwarts Express is fairly extensive. However, I highlight *wizards* because it is my recollection that the crumbling ruin disguise is meant to keep *Muggles* from noticing Hogwarts. I don't believe the disguise is meant to keep *wizards* from Hogwarts. I also don't think the inability to disapparate or apparate has anything to do with keeping *wizards* from being able to penetrate Hogwarts. I frankly think it's a convenient plot device for JKR - for example, if wizards could dis/apparate into or out of the Hogwarts grounds, Sirius would never have been left alone at the end of PoA pending his execution, and therefore Harry and Hermione wouldn't have been able to save him on Buckbeak. ~Phyllis From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 4 03:00:50 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 03:00:50 -0000 Subject: Classical Literary names in HP (how many can you list) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46053 egress.geo wrote of several HP names found in literature and asked us to come up with more. Now me: Oh, yes - there are tons - Hermione is from Shakespeare's "A Winter's Tale" (in which Shakespeare's Hermione becomes a statute, just like when the HP Hermione becomes petrified after seeing the basilisk in CoS); Mrs. Norris is from Jane Austin's "Mansfield Park" (in which Austin's Mrs. Norris is as disagreeable as the HP Mrs. Norris) ... the list is endless. The "What's in a Name" website has a lot of good info on these sort of connections if you're interested, as well as the "Encyclopedia Potterica" website. ~Phyllis From bess_va at lycos.com Sun Nov 3 22:56:47 2002 From: bess_va at lycos.com (bess_va2000) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 22:56:47 -0000 Subject: Classical Literary names in HP (how many can you list) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46054 Mrs. Norris - the busybody aunt in "Mansfield Park" by Jane Austen (from an interview with the creator herself...will have to look up which interview...) bess_va2000 From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Nov 4 03:30:59 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 21:30:59 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flying over Hogwarts (was:Re: Do All Students Travel to Hogwarts by the HE? References: <183.113dfdf5.2af6e58c@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DC5E9F3.31F51970@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46055 eloiseherisson at aol.com wrote: > > > It has struck me recently that with all the protections guarding Hogwarts - > the inability to dis/apparate, the crumbling ruin disguise and all the other > implied but unstated charms guarding the Castle - just how very odd it is > that Charlie Weasley's friends can just fly in on their broomsticks, pick up > Norbert and fly off again. Or, indeed, that Sirius can just fly of the > premises on a Hippogriff. > > What is the point of an anti-apparation charm, when you can simply fly in and > out unnoticed under cover of darkness? And how did Charlie's friends > locate Hogwarts? > Even if they'd been students there, they presumably would always have > travelled there by the Hogwarts Express. If the location is secret, > then it is secret and known only to a limited few. > > Eloise Well, if they couldn't fly, how could they play Quidditch, silly? Wouldn't be much fun rolling the balls around on the ground, now would it? The thing about flying is that you can be seen approaching, still have to pass through windows or doors to get in and can't just appear next to someone's bed with a knife... well, maybe Sirius could, but he still had to sneak all the way in to get that far and could have been caught. If there were anti-flying wards, it could get messy, surprised wizards and witches falling out of the air, possibly to a messy death, birds falling out of the air, possibly becoming deadly missiles (imagine getting hit by a falling goose!) or the damage a large flying creature, like a Hippogriff or dragon would do if it suddenly fell through a roof! Not to mention the embarrassment if the Beauxbatons carriage, plus 1 dozen elephant sized flying horses suddenly crashed through the roof because they hit an anti-flying spell!! Would not do well for International Wizarding Relations, that's for sure.. Besides, how would anyone learn how to fly a broom? I don't think the location is a secret to staff and students, certainly not to the vistors in the 4th book from other schools. In fact, I don't recall anyone stating Hoggwart's location was a secret. Jazmyn From Malady579 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 4 03:58:09 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 03:58:09 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Filch's Double-Cross In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46056 Watching George deadbolt himself and Eileen in the tavern, Melody secretly hoped Eileen would be ok. This town seems to not be rather trustworthy nor innocent in their intentions. She turned to wish Cindy and Risti good night, but they had already whisked back to their warm beds. "Hmph, seems I will be braving the muddied roads alone tonight." she thought as she trudged home. Even with the coming storm, she was always one to wander without worry. Besides, if anyone did accost her, she did have a rather large beast to run to her defense. Turning down the path that was becoming slowly familiar, Melody headed back towards the glow of the Safe House lost in her own thoughts about the night. Had she actually called Filch a "Pied Piper"? Whatever brought that image to her mind? Pied Pipers are false enchanters. Filling their enchanted with happy dreams and false extravagant promises if followed. If anything, Voldemort is a Pied Piper not Filch. "Great going Mel," she commented to herself turning down the pathway to the Safe House. "Rather intelligent choice of words there. Why didn't just you call him a "frog prince" and completely make a fool out of yourself? Gracious." Glancing up at the house, Melody paused and looked around. She was not sure if anyone was awake inside. Not wanting to wake the crew, she gingerly opened the oak door and slipped to the kitchen. Chilled a little, she hoped Sneaky left out a teapot so she could boil some water. To her surprise there was a steaming cup of cider waiting. "I did not know house elfs could read minds," she said quietly. "Handy little creatures they are." A gentle rumble of thunder rolled outside. Not feeling the least bit appeased from the night, Melody slipped quietly back outside and onto the porch. Seeing a well-worn rocking chair, Melody lowered her tired self down and gently began rocking sipping her cider. The view was rather spectacular as she watched the lightning strike and reflect over the bay. Life is always more enjoyable on this side of the storm. Her thoughts, though, turned back to the night's activities. Cap. Cindy really believes Filch is dangerous. A man who would murder if threatened. Her words echoed in Melody's head. > "Oh, I don't know about that," Cindy said quietly. "Filch ?- Filch > is downright dangerous, and he'd kill if he had the power and half > the chance. Well, Filch is still a grown man. A grown man who is constantly exercising his arms and legs running around the castle cleaning and chasing after muddy students. Seems he is capable of murder even if it is only in *muggle* ways. So he has the power. I wonder if he really would if he had the chance? "What was that passage Cindy quoted verbatim?" Melody muttered trying to figure out why she was so restless. Looking to her side, she saw the four copies of HP sitting on the side table. All seemed to be quite well loved. Impressed that Pip managed to always have the books close to her, Melody picked up CoS and found the passage. > ********** > > "What's going on here? What's going on?" > > Attracted no doubt by Malfoy's shout, Argus Filch came shouldering > his way through the crowd. Then he saw Mrs. Norris and fell back, > clutching his face in horror." > > "My cat! My cat! What happened to Mrs. Norris?" he shrieked. > > And his popping eyes fell on Harry. > > "*You*!" he screeched. *You!* You've murdered my cat! You've > killed her! I'll kill you! I'll ?" > > *************** "Hmmm, Filch does seem rather...attached to Mrs. Norris." Melody pondered while staring into the water. "As if she is the only thing he has in the world to comfort him. Even if Mrs. Norris is not just a cat, she is definitely cherished by Filch. I know if someone petrified by brother, I would be quite raven mad. Still, why did he immediate accuse Harry?" The thought bothered her. Filch had no reason to point immediately to Harry it seems. It could be as Cap. Cindy pointed out, >But what does Filch do? He jumps to the conclusion that Harry >killed Mrs. Norris! He doesn't accuse Ron, Hermione, Draco or any of >the other students. No, he goes right after The Boy Who Lived, and >he threatens to *kill* Harry! That shows that Filch is not only >irrational and murderous, but that he doesn't revere Harry the way >others in the wizarding world do. Makes me wonder about Filch's >loyalty to the wizarding world, it really does. Filch doesn't seem to revere the boy that lived at all, that is true. He sees him as a pest. Melody shrugs. "Maybe Filch doesn't read the papers," she thought amusingly picturing Filch in a coffee shop perusing The Daily Prophet with a spot of tea. "Well that might be a bit harsh. He obviously can read. Still, maybe Filch had other motives for jumping to the Harry conclusion so fast. Motives that supercede the fact Harry once debodied the greatest Dark Wizard of the world." Flipping the pages of Cos, Melody laughed thinking, "Hey, at least Filch picked the one person in the crowd who everyone knew had powers beyond comprehension for his age." Her hands rested on a bit of passage, from The Deathday Party chapter, that happened a few days earlier. ******************** His [Filch's] eyes fell on Harry and then darted to the Kwikspell envelope, which, Harry realized too late, was lying two feet away from where it has started. Filch's pasty face went brick red. Harry braced himself for a tidal wave of fury. Filch hobbled across the desk, snatched up the envelope, and threw it into a drawer. "Have you - did you read - ?" he sputtered. "No," Harry lied quickly. Filch's knobbly hands were twisting together. "If I thought you'd read my private - not that it's mine - for a friend - be that as it may - however -" Harry was staring at him, alarmed; Filch had never looked madder. His eyes popping, a tic was going in one of his pouchy cheeks, and the tartan scarf didn't help. ********************** "Well Filch does seem rather defensive about his Squib status. A real sore spot there." Melody noted. Harry did say he had never seen the man madder, and this is a man that has to put up with the Weasley twins' antics. Reading on, it seems Filch is quite nervous about Harry having such knowledge about Filch. Not really knowledge of a skeleton in Filch's closet, but more of a very embarrassing part of Filch that does not allow him to be seen as an equal. "Hmm, I wonder if Pip wants to use that fact in her argument about how wizards look down on people who do not have magic," She thought marking the passage to get back to Pip later when she was awake. "Seems Filch's near breakdown at the thought of anyone judging him as a squib shows that it is not only humiliating but a possible threat on his life or the lives of the person, or cat, he loves." Melody reached again for her cider and laid the book down in her lap. Filch was scared after that incident. Seems he knows Harry's ability to attach even if it was only against Voldemort. Filch does not know Harry does not have that power now. Filch doesn't even know that Harry doesn't hold the same prejudices as the rest of the wizards. Seems Filch does not even know what a non-wizard raised person would be thinking. He only jumps to the conclusion that Harry can and would act upon a squib. "That is why he let Harry go that day from his office without punishment," Melody said as she sat up in the rocker. "He wanted to get Harry on his good side and not tell anyone about the Kwikspell courses. By letting Harry go unpunished, Filch was doing him a favor." Melody's mind raced. That is why at the writing on the wall, Filch was so quick to place blame. Harry has broken the deal Filch thought he had made. Harry goes unpunished; Filch is left alone. So to Filch's eyes, the boy who had the power to debody Voldemort, the boy who knew he was a squib, and the boy who should feel like bullying Filch attached the one thing Filch holds so dear. Mrs. Norris. Melody began rocking against in the night air. She was sure she was on to something. Filch did not mean he would *kill* Harry. There were hundreds of students and Dumbledore striding down the hall. Filch was just impassioned. His precious Mrs. Norris strung up by her tail...humiliated...de-humanized (sort of). It was as if Filch saw his own heart pulled out and sat on the mantle for all to jeer. "Poor squibby Filch," she sighed. "He finally had had enough." Melody was not sure if Cap. Cindy would be convinced of this, but she quite was. To Filch, Harry had broken a promise to him. He had acted upon the knowledge that Filch was a helpless squib and made a fool out of him like bullies often do. Filch did not care it was *Harry*. He just wanted justice to the person he thought had wronged him and his petrified cat. That cat is his world. Melody's head was hurting now. She had stayed up *way* too late. Closing the book and resting it back on top of the rest, Melody rocked herself out of the rocker. Stretching a bit, she rested her mind in the knowledge *she* at least felt better. Slipping back inside up to her room and into her nightgown, she was quite glad to let her head rest on the deep pillows on her four-poster bed. "Maybe not now is a good time to owl post Cap. Cindy," she muttered almost asleep. "I'll do it in the morning. When she is sober." Melody From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Nov 4 06:19:12 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 06:19:12 -0000 Subject: Flying over Hogwarts (was:Re: Do All Students Travel to Hogwarts by the HE? In-Reply-To: <3DC5E9F3.31F51970@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46057 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jazmyn wrote: > > I don't think the location is a secret to staff and students, > certainly not to the vistors in the 4th book from other schools. > In fact, I don't recall anyone stating Hoggwart's location was a > secret. > > Jazmyn bboy_mn: Excellent point. Let's think about this from a wizard's perspective. Where is Hogwarts? Could it be that giant walled-in castle next to the big lake right across the railroad tracks for the only all wizards village in Britian, Hogsmeade? Every wizard knows about Hogsmead and if you can get to Hogsmead, you have to be pretty dense not to spot the giant castle just a ways beyond the end of High Street. I think it would be pretty hard to launch a suprise attack on Hogwards by broom. The worst the Death Eaters could do is land outside the grounds and come running in on foot. The best they could do is land on the ground and run up to the castle. I think someone might notice, especially now that the school is aware that Voldemort is back. Now if a dozen Death Eaters could suddenly apparate directly into selected location within the castle, that would be a serious surprise attack. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From gandharvika at hotmail.com Mon Nov 4 09:09:45 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 09:09:45 +0000 Subject: (FILK) I Won't Let Him Spoil The Yule Ball Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46058 I Won't Let Him Spoil The Yule Ball (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _I Don't Want To Spoil The Party_ by the Beatles) Listen to the Midi here: http://wsp3.wspice.com/~dpannell/beatles/spoil.htm Padma Patel: I won't let him spoil the Yule Ball, so I'll go I am not too pleased with this scenario I'm supposed to be with Ron But he's being a moron Why I agreed to this blind date, I'll never know I've had some butterbeer, I want to dance It's no fun, though, when your date is in a trance It's very clear to me He wants Hermione I think it's about time I made a stance Yes, tonight's the biggest night I won't let him Spoil it all with a big fight I won't let him I won't let him spoil the Yule Ball, so I'll go Before this night becomes a fiasco My sister Parvati, I wonder where is she? She walked away from here a while ago Yes, tonight's the biggest night I won't let him Spoil it all with a big fight I won't let him I see my sister standing over there Next to the Beauxbaton with wavy hair I think I will join them I bet he has a friend This git Ron, he doesn't even care -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections-- switch toMSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From fharraige at yahoo.com Mon Nov 4 11:24:52 2002 From: fharraige at yahoo.com (Fharraige) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 11:24:52 -0000 Subject: Wands and Who Uses Them Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46059 *...And of course, you will never get such good results with another wizard's wand." Mr. Ollivander, PS/SS, Chapter 5* If Ollivander's statement was true, then how could Sirius Black use Ron's wand so well in PoA? And how could Barty Crouch Jr. conjure the Dark Mark so easily in GoF? Wouldn't the wands fail, or at least give a weaker result? Val From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon Nov 4 14:30:02 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 08:30:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wands and Who Uses Them Message-ID: <32022911.1036420202922.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46060 Val writes: > *...And of course, you will never get such good results with another > wizard's wand." Mr. Ollivander, PS/SS, Chapter 5* > > If Ollivander's statement was true, then how could Sirius Black use > Ron's wand so well in PoA? And how could Barty Crouch Jr. conjure the > Dark Mark so easily in GoF? Wouldn't the wands fail, or at least > give a weaker result? Don't forget Hermione, a first year student also used Harry's wand to unlock the door. And Wormtail used Voldemort's wand to kill Cedric Diggory. Unlocking a door is a basic spell, but AK is all together more complicated. Yet he could still use another's wand. But I don't think JKR would have put that line in there about using another wizard's wand just to go and disprove it time and time again. There must be something to it, but what, what? I can see how one could use any old wand to do a simple spell, but something more complex it would seem would require your own wand. But then, AK is probably the most complex curse and Wormtail uses Voldemort's wand for that. Perhaps that has something to do with the wand's owners intent? Voldemort had ordered Cedric killed, so the wand would be willing. Harry wanted the door opened just as much as Hermione did. Those two work, but what about Sirius Black using Ron's wand? Or Barty Jr. using Harry's? Perhaps it involves the wizard not having access to any other wand? I think I'm confusing myself, somebody figure this out, please! Richelle ---------- *...And of course, you will never get such good results with another wizard's wand." Mr. Ollivander, PS/SS, Chapter 5* If Ollivander's statement was true, then how could Sirius Black use Ron's wand so well in PoA? And how could Barty Crouch Jr. conjure the Dark Mark so easily in GoF? Wouldn't the wands fail, or at least give a weaker result? Val ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From notcarlos at hotmail.com Mon Nov 4 12:48:25 2002 From: notcarlos at hotmail.com (Jacob Lewis) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 06:48:25 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wands and Who Uses Them References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46061 > *...And of course, you will never get such good results with another > wizard's wand." Mr. Ollivander, PS/SS, Chapter 5* > > If Ollivander's statement was true, then how could Sirius Black use > Ron's wand so well in PoA? And how could Barty Crouch Jr. conjure the > Dark Mark so easily in GoF? Wouldn't the wands fail, or at least > give a weaker result? I believe the implication here is that over time, you'll grow so accustomed to your wand, its ins-and-outs (cf. Muggle computers, or cars -- I've had cars that would only start if /I/ were driving them, and only if I were holding my tongue in just the right place... erm...) that it just "won't feel right" to use another wizard's wand. This doesn't stop you from doing so, of course -- wands are overall a conduit for the magic (at least, that's how I interpret JKR's statement that magic is "unfocused" without a wand). You just won't feel right using someone else's. Black and Crouch, you'll recall, had their wands broken years ago, and since then hadn't used wands at all. Thus, they hadn't "broken" in a wand. This also goes to the "joke wands in the Kitchen" scene in GoF: Mrs. Weasley was in a hurry, and didn't look at what she was doing until she tried to cast a spell, and -- really technical and probably non-canonical moment coming on -- the core in the wand felt the magic and, um, went all chicken on her. Jacob, who saw dark times ahead when, "The Islamist-based *AK* party score[d] a clear victory" in Turkey. From orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 4 13:15:44 2002 From: orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com (orlaquirke2002) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 13:15:44 -0000 Subject: The wizarding world and the world wars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46062 I've been wondering about the lack of mention of the world wars in the Harry Potter books. Surely with the bombing that took place in the second world war they would have noticed something, and some may even have died, unless wizards are generally invulnerable to muggle kinds of death? Just a thought. Orla From alina at distantplace.net Mon Nov 4 14:53:23 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 09:53:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wands and Who Uses Them References: <32022911.1036420202922.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> Message-ID: <002401c28411$ed16cc80$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46063 > Val writes: > > > *...And of course, you will never get such good results with another > > wizard's wand." Mr. Ollivander, PS/SS, Chapter 5* snip > > I can see how one could use any old wand to do a simple spell, but something > more complex it would seem would require your own wand. But then, AK is > probably the most complex curse and Wormtail uses Voldemort's wand for that. > Perhaps that has something to do with the wand's owners intent? Voldemort had > ordered Cedric killed, so the wand would be willing. Harry wanted the door > opened just as much as Hermione did. Those two work, but what about Sirius > Black using Ron's wand? Or Barty Jr. using Harry's? Perhaps it involves the > wizard not having access to any other wand? I think I'm confusing myself, > somebody figure this out, please! > > Richelle Well, maybe it has something to do with the experience of the two wizards? Barty Jr. is a more experienced wizard than Harry and Black is obviously more experienced than Ron... But really, I think the reason JKR exchanges wands so much in the books is to get a point across. Despite the phoenix feather mysteries, the great desire for an actual magic wand, I think she's trying to tell us that the wands are just tools. They don't "really" matter, they just matter somewhat. It's not the wand that makes the wizard, right? And maybe it's best that the magnificent trio learns this early on, because Harry and Hermione, being Muggle raised, and other muggle kids probably came into Hogwarts thinking there's more magic in their wands than there is in them and I think that's obviously false. Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 31/10/2002 From alina at distantplace.net Mon Nov 4 14:54:16 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 09:54:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The wizarding world and the world wars References: Message-ID: <003201c28412$0c958b00$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46064 > I've been wondering about the lack of mention of the world wars in > the Harry Potter books. Surely with the bombing that took place in > the second world war they would have noticed something, and some may > even have died, unless wizards are generally invulnerable to muggle > kinds of death? Just a thought. > > Orla Do you remember the year in which Dumbledore defeated Grindewald? 1945. I always found that curious. Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 31/10/2002 From divaclv at aol.com Mon Nov 4 17:01:01 2002 From: divaclv at aol.com (c_voth312) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 17:01:01 -0000 Subject: The wizarding world and the world wars In-Reply-To: <003201c28412$0c958b00$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46065 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alina" wrote: > > > I've been wondering about the lack of mention of the world wars in > > the Harry Potter books. Surely with the bombing that took place in > > the second world war they would have noticed something, and some may > > even have died, unless wizards are generally invulnerable to muggle > > kinds of death? Just a thought. > > > > Orla I'm sure they would have noticed--it's hard to ignore something of that magnitude--but it's possible that the two wars don't carry the same significance with wizards as they do with Muggles. Remember that wizards can be very isolationist, and either misunderstand or ignore the goings-on in the "normal" world. They might have looked on it as "something that doesn't concern us." > Do you remember the year in which Dumbledore defeated Grindewald? 1945. I > always found that curious. > And somehow, I doubt it's coincidence. Also, I'm not very good with name origins but "Grindewald" sounds like it might be German in origin. Could it be there was a "Wizard World War" paralleling the conflict in the Muggle world? Was Hitler's rise to power due, in part, to having a dark wizard on his payroll? Some things to consider. ~Christi From msbonsai at mninter.net Mon Nov 4 18:00:54 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 18:00:54 -0000 Subject: The wizarding world and the world wars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46066 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "c_voth312" wrote: > > And somehow, I doubt it's coincidence. Also, I'm not very good with > name origins but "Grindewald" sounds like it might be German in > origin. Could it be there was a "Wizard World War" paralleling the > conflict in the Muggle world? Was Hitler's rise to power due, in > part, to having a dark wizard on his payroll? Some things to > consider. > > ~Christi Hmm. Well you peeked my interest, so I did some research. I hope I'm not doing something wrong by posting the quotes I found: http://www.wizardwords.net/ "Grindelwald is the name of a ski resort in Switzerland. Grendel is the monster defeated by Beowulf in the Old English epic poem. Wald is German for forest." http://hpprogs.blogspot.com/2002_09_01_hpprogs_archive.html ""Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945." How is this important? A quick check of the Harry Potter timeline puts 1945 about the time when Tom Riddle was at Hogwarts, or was to have graduated. Dumbledore at the time was teaching at the school, under the able administration of Professor Dippet. This means that, while still a young wizard, Dumbledore defeated a presumably powerful evil wizard. No wonder Dumbledore is the only wizard that Voldemort is afraid of! But my point is this: Dumbledore has had his time, fought his battles and won his wars. He is now older, and it is time to pass on to the next generation the burden of protecting the world from evil. Dumbledore's (like Gandalf's after the destruction of the Ring) time has passed. It is time for a new hero to emerge, or for all to be lost. Of course, just because he is dead, doesnt mean he wont help out at all. I think that we will see some posthumous pointers from a spirit version of Dumbledore, a la Obi-Wan Kenobi. Another hint: Hagrid, at the end of Book 4 says, "Great man, Dumbledore. `S long as we've got him, I'm not too worried." Could it be any clearer than that? You can kiss your Dumbledore goodbye. So say the signs! We shall see! Prognosticated Tuesday, September 03, 2002 by Greg Gershman" As for helping Hitler, well we do know that Hitler was Austrian, and therefore by German law of the time should never have been allowed to be elected to the status he was elected to. They had the law changed to allow him to become what he became. Previous messages which discussed this: 1148, 1771, 5008, 5021. Julie From tracey.burkhardt at gnb.ca Mon Nov 4 16:51:44 2002 From: tracey.burkhardt at gnb.ca (iwishiwerehermione) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 16:51:44 -0000 Subject: is petunia dursley a squib? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46067 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marephraim" wrote: > >Re Msg: 44598 Re: is petunia dursley a squib? > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rvotaw at i... (Richelle?) wrote: > > > > If indeed Petunia is a squib instead of Lily being a muggle born, > there must be some really really good reason for Lily to basically > enter Hogwarts under a false pretense of being a muggle born. If, > perhaps, she had a "bad name" that Dumbledore or whoever didn't want > her associated with or stereotyped by, claiming to be muggle born > would explain why no one knew her "new name." > > > > Richelle > Can some one provide me with the details as to where I can find this reference to Lily entering Hogwarts as a muggle? I'm unfamiliar with it. "iwishiwerehermione" From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Nov 4 18:53:45 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 18:53:45 -0000 Subject: is petunia dursley a squib? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46068 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "iwishiwerehermione" wrote: > > Can some one provide me with the details as to where I can find this > reference to Lily entering Hogwarts as a muggle? I'm unfamiliar with > it. > > Harry obviously accepts the fact that his mother is muggle-born. Otherwise, why would he mention this fact when conversing with Tom Riddle in the Chamber. As for Lily having a secret identity, IMO, it is not plausible. Why would JKR spend so much effort in creating this chasm between muggle-supporters and muggle-haters, only to say in the end, "oh by the way, Lily Potter really came from an pure- blood wizard family"? However, I do believe that all of Lily's magical abilities have yet to be revealed. In fact, I believe it is Lily's abilities that will be the ace up Harry's sleave so to speak- something that Voldemort would never suspect a muggle-born capable of. IMO, Harry's muggle-born mother passed on some powerful attributes to her son-which will prove integral in the defeat of Voldemort. bugaloo37 From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 4 19:06:16 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 19:06:16 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Age (WAS: The wizarding world and the world wars) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46069 Julie (jastrangfeld), quoting Greg Gershman, wrote: > A quick check of the Harry Potter timeline puts 1945 about the time > when Tom Riddle was at Hogwarts, or was to have graduated. > Dumbledore at the time was teaching at the school, under the able > administration of Professor Dippet. This means that, while still a > young wizard, Dumbledore defeated a presumably powerful evil > wizard. No wonder Dumbledore is the only wizard that Voldemort > is afraid of! Now me: I don't believe Dumbledore was a young wizard when he defeated Voldemort in round one of the battle. In an interview (http://www.comicrelief.com/harrysbooks/pages/transcript.shtml), JKR said that Dumbledore is currently 150 years old. Which would have made him approximately 100 years old when Riddle was at Hogwarts 50 years ago. That being said, I unfortunately agree with Greg's conclusion that Dumbledore's a goner this time. ~Phyllis From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Mon Nov 4 20:01:02 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 20:01:02 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: is petunia dursley a squib? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46070 I think its pretty clear that Petuna is not a squib, but just an ordinary muggle. There are several points conected with this. 1) Petuna joins Vernon in attempting to hide from the Letters (and hagrid) in PS/SS. That indicates that she does not know that its futile. Dudley protests, Petuna does not. 2) She is scared of Hagrid. This surgests that she knows knothing about him in perticuler or the collection of half-humans that live in the WW. 3) in COS, she knows nothing about the wizard laws relating to magical actions when outside hogwarts, and she is fooled by harry's claim that he can do magic outside school. 4) I can't remember if she saw dobby, but if she did she clearly did not know what he was. 5) She does not seem to recognise Sirus Black when the MW is alerted following his escape. (This struck me as odd, did she not attend lily's wedding?) 6) In GOF, she does not realise that the Weasley's may come though the fire. (To be fair, neither did harry). 7) also in GOF, she thinks that the twins attacked dudley, rather than a small charm that was harmless in the long run. Thoughts? Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Mon Nov 4 20:35:27 2002 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:35:27 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: is petunia dursley a squib? Message-ID: <182.114a5a3d.2af8340f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46071 In a message dated 11/4/2002 3:04:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com writes: > 5) She does not seem to recognise Sirus Black when the MW is alerted > following his escape. (This struck me as odd, did she not attend lily's > wedding?) Ah! But remember what Black looked like? To quote PoA (chapter 11, page 212): "If he hadn't know it was the same person, he [Harry] would never have guessed that it was Black in this old photograph. His face wasn't sunken and waxy, but handsome, full of laughter." That explains why she may not've recognized him physically. I can't, however, explain why she didn't recognize the name. ^^; ~Cassie~ "If Severus Snape taught sex-ed, would he be called 'The Sex Master'?" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Nov 4 21:13:19 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 21:13:19 -0000 Subject: is petunia dursley a squib? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46072 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: > 5) She does not seem to recognise Sirus Black when the MW is alerted following his escape. (This struck me as odd, did she not attend lily's wedding?) > Do you really think Petunia would have attended the wedding? Considering her obvious resentment and hostility towards her sister and especially toward James Potter? She would have been guaranteed to run into some of those magical friends of James and Lily. Not to mention any family James might have had. IMO, I just do not see her attending a possibility. bugaloo37 who thinks Petunia is a muggle-and not a very nice one at that From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Nov 4 21:21:46 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 21:21:46 -0000 Subject: Who will it be? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46073 In an interview held while attending the London Premiere, JKR stated for the record that a "bad death" will occur in book 5-one she has found particularly hard to write. Okay folks-who will it be? While you are thinking-here is a fact to consider: JKR stated previously that the writing of Cedric's death in book 4 was very traumatic for her. This has led me to believe that writing any death is difficult for JKR. I guess what I am saying is: a "bad death" does not necessarily signal the death of a major character-just a thought. But even so-who do you think it is? bugaloo37 From cureluv88 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 4 21:33:39 2002 From: cureluv88 at hotmail.com (Liz) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 21:33:39 -0000 Subject: Who will it be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46074 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > In an interview held while attending the London Premiere, JKR stated > for the record that a "bad death" will occur in book 5-one she has > found particularly hard to write. Okay folks-who will it be? Although, as you pointed out, it doesn't have to be the death of a major character, most of the people that run through my mind are major characters. My gut instinct is that it will be Hagrid to die - someone on here once wrote a post about Harry's development, and how Hagrid was instrumental to it in the beginnning, but that stage is over now, or something like that. (whoever you are, I'm sure I botched your theory. I apologize). I also (and again I could be wrong) seem to remember JKR having a a particular attachment to Hagrid. Besides all that, Hagrid dying would be really, really sad - and therefore hard to write, perhaps? Could whatever it is he and Madame Maxime are doing (summoning the giants, or whatever) be so dangerous as to be fatal? Arguments against my gut feeling would be that Hagrid has already been in serious danger, with being in Azkahban (can't remember how it's spelled and don't have my books handy) and then when Buckbeak was on trial (before Buckbeak was on trial, Hagrid thought he would fired from being a teacher). So I don't know if the big peril will fall on someone who's already gone through so much in the books. Another painful, painful idea is in my head. This one also was prompted by an older post on here - what if one of the twins died? I can't think of anything more painful, because they are such a team. It would devastate so many people... What does everyone else think? Lizbot From cureluv88 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 4 21:39:09 2002 From: cureluv88 at hotmail.com (Liz) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 21:39:09 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Dying (WAS Re: Dumbledore's Age ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46075 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: >JKR > said that Dumbledore is currently 150 years old. Which would have > made him approximately 100 years old when Riddle was at Hogwarts 50 > years ago. > > That being said, I unfortunately agree with Greg's conclusion that > Dumbledore's a goner this time. > > ~Phyllis I just posted about who I thought would die in Book Five, and I predicted either Hagrid or on of the twins. However, upon reading this post and the one previous to it, I could imagine Dumbledore dying. As was brought up two posts ago, Hagrid says that as long as Dumbledore is around, everything will be fine, or something like that. If that isn't foreshadowing, I don't know what is. My only reason for thinking Dumbledore wouldn't die in Book Five is the question of who would be headmaster/mistress after him? McGonagall? Snape? I don't know. I imagined he would die in Book Seven. What does everyone else think? If he did die, who would fill his position? Lizbot From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Nov 4 21:39:20 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 21:39:20 -0000 Subject: Who will it be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46076 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > In an interview held while attending the London Premiere, JKR stated > for the record that a "bad death" will occur in book 5-one she has > found particularly hard to write. Okay folks-who will it be? Hard to say. I personally have 3 people in mind, who might bite the dust that early: - Ginny - Hagrid - Neville It's very difficult to find reasons why, just a feeling. Neville might be dying doing something heroic. But I hope it isn't him, because I would rather like to see anybody else dying, but Neville. Hagrid is a pretty obvious choice, maybe to obvious? Ginny won't make it, I don't think so. She will become Harry's girlfriend and then she will be killed by Voldemort, I suppose. But maybe book 5 is to early. It's hard to say, after all, who would have suspected Cedric being the one in book 4? Hickengruendler From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 4 22:06:11 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 22:06:11 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Dying and Terrible Book 5 Death (WAS Re: Dumbledore's Age ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46077 Lizbot wrote: > My only reason for thinking Dumbledore wouldn't die in Book Five is > the question of who would be headmaster/mistress after him? > McGonagall? Snape? I don't know. I imagined he would die in Book > Seven. Now me: Just to clarify my earlier post - I didn't mean to imply that Dumbledore would die in Book 5. I think he'll die in Book 7, for the reasons I explained in post #46023. I'm not familiar with the JKR comment about the horrible death in Book 5 - could bugaloo or someone else please provide the link to the article in which she made this comment? Many thanks. ~Phyllis From speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 4 22:07:10 2002 From: speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com (frankielee242) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 22:07:10 -0000 Subject: Flying over Hogwarts (was:Re: Do All Students Travel to Hogwarts by the HE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46078 bboy_mn wrote: > I think it would be pretty hard to launch a suprise attack on Hogwards > by broom. The worst the Death Eaters could do is land outside the > grounds and come running in on foot. The best they could do is land on > the ground and run up to the castle. I think someone might notice, > especially now that the school is aware that Voldemort is back. > > Now if a dozen Death Eaters could suddenly apparate directly into > selected location within the castle, that would be a serious surprise > attack. There are a number of "secret" passages out of Hogwarts that have been sketched on the Marauders' Map... which a faithful Death Eater just happened to *borrow* from Harry several months before Lord Voldemort's rebirth (GoF). Remember what happened the last time a student (Neville Longbottom we're looking in your direction- PoA) left vital Hogwarts information lying around? I'm betting that at some point Lord Voldemort will try to use a copy of the Map, if not the map itself, to storm Hogwarts through those "secret" passages. Frankie From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Mon Nov 4 22:09:45 2002 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:09:45 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who will it be? Message-ID: <106.1add8e30.2af84a29@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46079 In a message dated 11/4/02 4:35:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, cureluv88 at hotmail.com writes: > Another painful, painful idea is in my head. This one also was > prompted by an older post on here - what if one of the twins died? I > can't think of anything more painful, because they are such a team. > It would devastate so many people... *gasp* As much as I would hate it, it would be such a good plot device. Turn one of the twins into a vengeance driven wizard and watch as he is consumed by his thoughts of hate. I thought that they (the twins) were doomed when Harry gave them the money and told them that we'd be needing some laughs. (Don't have my books so I don't have a quote right now...) They have such big plans together... It would devastate the Weasley family to lose one of their own. Everyone's always talking about how funny they are and how fun they are to be around so if one of them died, it would be a big blow to everyone. Horrible thing to read, but a wicked plot device. (Oh...I hope George doesn't die...he's my favorite twin!) ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ "Life is a sexually transmitted disease." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Mon Nov 4 22:11:06 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:11:06 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The wizarding world and the world wars Message-ID: <12a.1a463a9d.2af84a7a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46080 In a message dated 04/11/2002 18:02:05 GMT Standard Time, msbonsai at mninter.net writes: > Hmm. Well you peeked my interest, so I did some research. I hope > I'm not doing something wrong by posting the quotes I found: > > http://www.wizardwords.net/ > "Grindelwald is the name of a ski resort in Switzerland. Grendel is > the monster defeated by Beowulf in the Old English epic poem. Wald is > German for forest." > More pertinently, in etymology, 'Wald' is Teutonic for 'power'. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 4 22:12:42 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 22:12:42 -0000 Subject: JKR Book 5 Interview is on OT-Chatter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46081 I see that Pip!Squeak has posted the JKR interview in which she mentions the bad death in Book 5 on the OT-Chatter board, so if anyone else other than me was wondering where one could see the transcript, that's where it is! ~Phyllis with apologies for not doing her homework before posting From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 4 22:12:46 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 22:12:46 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Dying and Terrible Book 5 Death (WAS Re: Dumbledore's Age ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46082 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: I explained in post #46023. > > I'm not familiar with the JKR comment about the horrible death in > Book 5 - could bugaloo or someone else please provide the link to the > article in which she made this comment? Many thanks. > > ~Phyllis It was an interview by BBC Newsround at the Celebrity Premiere of CoS - I've done a transcript (it was *very* short - about 3 questions) and posted it on OT Chatter. My money is on Hagrid - but I admit either Fred or George would be equally shocking and devastating for the Trio. Pip!Squeak [The Leaky Cauldron also has a link to the Newsround Web site.] From brian042 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 4 22:35:50 2002 From: brian042 at hotmail.com (Brian) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 22:35:50 -0000 Subject: Who will it be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46083 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > In an interview held while attending the London Premiere, JKR stated > for the record that a "bad death" will occur in book 5-one she has > found particularly hard to write. Okay folks-who will it be? While > you are thinking-here is a fact to consider: JKR stated previously > that the writing of Cedric's death in book 4 was very traumatic for > her. This has led me to believe that writing any death is difficult > for JKR. I guess what I am saying is: a "bad death" does not > necessarily signal the death of a major character-just a thought. > But even so-who do you think it is? > > bugaloo37 My money is on Hermione becoming a worm feast. Always has been. JKR has stated that the death would be difficult to write, and what could be more difficult than writing the death of the character that she has patterned after herself? Also, the death of Hermione need not be the DEMISE of Hermione....Remember Myrtle? Didn't JKR also say something about explaining the origins of ghosts in this one? From m.bockermann at t-online.de Mon Nov 4 22:33:14 2002 From: m.bockermann at t-online.de (m.bockermann at t-online.de) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 23:33:14 +0100 Subject: Dumbledore Dying (WAS Re: Dumbledore's Age ) References: <1036447982.6088.55224.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <022901c28452$46d2ccc0$ef1ae23e@computer> No: HPFGUIDX 46084 Phyllis wrote: >JKR > said that Dumbledore is currently 150 years old. Which would have > made him approximately 100 years old when Riddle was at Hogwarts 50 > years ago. > > That being said, I unfortunately agree with Greg's conclusion that > Dumbledore's a goner this time. And Lizbot added: >>> As was brought up two posts ago, Hagrid says that as long as Dumbledore is around, everything will be fine, or something like that. If that isn't foreshadowing, I don't know what is. My only reason for thinking Dumbledore wouldn't die in Book Five is the question of who would be headmaster/mistress after him? McGonagall? Snape? I don't know. I imagined he would die in Book Seven. What does everyone else think? If he did die, who would fill his position? Me: Add to that the way Harry notes Dumbledore looking old and worn at the end of GoF. DDs death's would make a nailbiting cliffhanger and it would set the stage for book 6 and 7. Since I believe that Snape will be busy with DD's mission, I'd bet my money on McGonagall. That would make DD's the bad one... and the terrible? Hagrig, maybe? Greetings, Ethanol From Malady579 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 4 23:34:56 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 23:34:56 -0000 Subject: Who will it be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46085 Lizbot wrote: > Another painful, painful idea is in my head. This one also was > prompted by an older post on here - what if one of the twins died? > I can't think of anything more painful, because they are such a > team. It would devastate so many people... Well, they have been compared to Sirius and James, and well... JKR did say once her favorite characters are Harry, Hermione, Ron, Hagrid, and Lupin. I would think it would be one of those. Safe to say we can rule out Harry (or she will loose her nice pattern of titles), so I say it will be Hagrid. If anyone dares comes close to Dumbledore, he will pounce. It is such a guarantee that it is bankable and that knowledge could be used against him. Voldemort is not stupid. Melody From talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 4 18:56:10 2002 From: talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com (Darla) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 18:56:10 -0000 Subject: Ironic Ending In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021104004755.00984e10@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46086 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: > >I actually had an odd dream that something similar happened. In my dream, > >after Harry defeated Voldemort and perished in the fight, everyone forgot > >everything. No one remembered the Reign of Terror, the Death Eaters, or The > >Boy Who Lived. I think that that would be a great way to end the series. > >Well, perhaps not *great* but better than "He defeated LV and lived happily > >ever after with Ginny Weasley." An ending like that would certainly have a dramatic irony to it... but i think that it would almost make a mockery of everything we know so far. I mean, through out the books there's a constant thread of *accepting* and really opening your eyes to reality and dealing with it- Harry learns to deal with the threat of Voldemort and accept that he's by no means gone, and this is now something most of the wizarding world will have to do as well. We saw a glimpse of what i would say is a very likely reaction by many wizards through Fudge at the end of GoF- the refusal to accept Voldemort might be returning, and a kind of little denial bubble. The rise of Voldemort, in essence, to me, is all about corruption through fear, and those things can only really be battled, as can Voldemort, by sticking together, and believing in your friends and what you stand for. To have that life experience taken away, or forgotten, in the end... i think that's almost criminal. However, to have the part Harry plays in it mostly a secret (sort of like in P of A).. i think that *would* be feesable. He would finally be able to accept that he's capable of being a hero, but this time because of something he *has* done, and a belief in himself, rather then being a hero through the memories or eyes of others. Darla. > > > > From chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Mon Nov 4 22:09:23 2002 From: chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia=20Chrysshallie?=) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 11:09:23 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who will it be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021104220923.33227.qmail@web10402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46087 --- bugaloo37 wrote: In an interview held while attending the London Premiere JKR stated for the record that a "bad death" will occur in book 5-one she has found particularly hard to write. Okay folks-who will it be? Well let's consider the candidates, shall we? 1.Hagrid He is going to the giant in the summer after Harrys 4th year. I doubt they will be nice to him. Obviously giants are not nice even to their own kind, and Hagrid is a half-giant only. If they were to fight, oh poor Hagrid, he doesnt stand a chance...they would be twice the size of him! 2.Lupin I dont want Lupin to die, but unfortunately I have no say in this matter! And since Wormtail was given a silver hand, and silver is fatal to werewolves, its only a matter of time... 3. Dumbledore? Yes, he is going to die. But not in book 5, Harry still needs him... 4. One of the twins In PS/SS chapter 12(the Mirror of Erised): "the Weasley twins were punished for bewitching several snowballs so that they followed Quirell around, bouncing off the back of his turban" Its Voldemort inside the turban! He would not be very happy about this incident, would he? Oh of course paying back the twins would not be his priority, but if he takes care of whatever he needs to do (aside from killing Harry) he might find time at the end of book 5 to finish Gred/Forge. Just imagine how painful this is for Harry, and to Mr and Mrs. Weasley, who so far thinks that the twins have given them more problems than the rest of the children combined. This would also serve as a turning point for Percy. I believe Percy would not believe that Voldemort has come back (following Fudge) but surely the death of a brother would wake him up? 5. The new DADA teacher (?!) Well, its kind of tradition that no one last for more than a year... ;) Well, that's my two cents. Vinnia http://careers.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Careers - 1,000's of jobs waiting online for you! From kelly_bean03 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 4 22:33:21 2002 From: kelly_bean03 at yahoo.com (Kelly Urban) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 14:33:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: is petunia dursley a squib? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021104223321.30427.qmail@web40910.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46088 --- Christopher Nuttall wrote: > I think its pretty clear that Petuna is not a squib, > but just an ordinary muggle. There are several > points conected with this. > > 1) I think there could also be the possibility that Petunia separated herself from the WW as much as possible. If she's as hostile against anything wizarding now, maybe she always was. She could have even attended a muggle school. This would mean she had had little wizarding influence since she was 11 (if it was a boarding school). Then she could have cut all ties after she married Dursley. Do we know when that was or how old she is now? It has to be at least 11 years ago. Somewhere around 20 years is a long time. There's a lot you could forget. Then again, I have no frame of reference, cause I was only 2 20 years ago, so maybe someone else knows... Kel - Who's a newbie ===== Dumbledore: It is our choices, Harry, that show us what we truly are, far more than our abilities. - Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From smellee17 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 4 22:59:34 2002 From: smellee17 at hotmail.com (smellee17) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 22:59:34 -0000 Subject: Wands Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46089 OK, here is the original post, *...And of course, you will never get such good results with another wizard's wand." Mr. Ollivander, PS/SS, Chapter 5* If Ollivander's statement was true, then how could Sirius Black use Ron's wand so well in PoA? And how could Barty Crouch Jr. conjure the Dark Mark so easily in GoF? Wouldn't the wands fail, or at least give a weaker result? Val Kinda funny how people can takes things in really different ways. When I read this quote, I thought it was Mr. Ollivander talking about the high quality of his wands. Like Harry did made the right choice in coming to Ollivander's, becuase the wands there are superior to other brands. Like he was saying that his wands are the best wands in the field. Hagrid says that Ollivanders is the "only" place for wands. But in GoF, both Krum and Fleur have wands by other wand makers. ( Sorry, I loaned out my copy and can't get the exact page number)So I took it as Ollivanders being the designer wand, and the others would be OK wands, but not so nice. I thought of it kinda like a guchi knockoff. Ollivander would be the brand name of the wizarding world. Just my take, of course. Does this make any sense? Signed, Smellee From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 4 23:47:57 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:47:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021104234757.90221.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46090 --- smellee17 wrote: > > OK, here is the original post, > > *...And of course, you will never get such good > results with another > wizard's wand." Mr. Ollivander, PS/SS, Chapter 5* > > If Ollivander's statement was true, then how could > Sirius Black use > Ron's wand so well in PoA? And how could Barty > Crouch Jr. conjure the > Dark Mark so easily in GoF? Wouldn't the wands > fail, or at least > give a weaker result? > I have to wonder if it is as big a deal as Ollivander makes it. Keep in mind how he said Voldemort did great things with his want. Ollivander seems one of those people that puts a little too much emphasis on the tool and too little on the wielder. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Mon Nov 4 23:57:02 2002 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 23:57:02 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Dying and Terrible Book 5 Death (WAS Re: Dumbledore's Age ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46091 Just to be different than everyone, I'm going to suggest that Dumbledore will die in Book 6 - in fact I'm almost certain of it. Think about it. We need three more climactic moments (one each for the next 3 books). We've been told many times that LV never tried to take over Hogwarts during his first reign because Dumbledore was too powerful. We can pretty much assume that Book 7 will focus on an attempted coup of Hogwarts, the most important social structure of the wizard world. LV will not attempt this until Dumbledore is dead. So, we need a dead Dumbledore by Book 7. But his death can't be a side note or a sub-plot. It has to be a climactic moment. So, Dumbledore's death is the climax of Book 6, leaving Harry without protection for the first time to save the day in Book 7. It just makes literary sense. BTW: We know the death in Book 5 will be a big fan of Harry's. My money is on one of the Weasleys. The Creevey's seem a bit too obvious. -Ing From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Mon Nov 4 23:57:18 2002 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 23:57:18 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Dying and Terrible Book 5 Death (WAS Re: Dumbledore's Age ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46092 Just to be different than everyone, I'm going to suggest that Dumbledore will die in Book 6 - in fact I'm almost certain of it. Think about it. We need three more climactic moments (one each for the next 3 books). We've been told many times that LV never tried to take over Hogwarts during his first reign because Dumbledore was too powerful. We can pretty much assume that Book 7 will focus on an attempted coup of Hogwarts, the most important social structure of the wizard world. LV will not attempt this until Dumbledore is dead. So, we need a dead Dumbledore by Book 7. But his death can't be a side note or a sub-plot. It has to be a climactic moment. So, Dumbledore's death is the climax of Book 6, leaving Harry without protection for the first time to save the day in Book 7. It just makes literary sense. BTW: We know the death in Book 5 will be a big fan of Harry's. My money is on one of the Weasleys. The Creevey's seem a bit too obvious. -Ing From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Nov 5 00:04:50 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 00:04:50 -0000 Subject: Just One of Those Things (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46093 Just One of Those Things To The Tune of Cole Porter's Just One of Those Things (specifically, Louis Armstrong's rendition, unfortunately not available on line as far as I can tell) Dedicated to Audra Hear a MIDI at: http://www.garyw0001.com/GMIDI/JustOneG.html Les Brown sings it at: http://www.hhbrandy.addr.com/swing2.html Sinatra sings it at: http://pgoh.free.fr/just_one.html THE SCENE: HAGRID's hut. HAGRID is relaxing contentedly, when his door is suddenly burst open by The TRIO. HARRY: Hagrid, you're back! Thank goodness you're OK! RON: Everyone said that some horrible beast seized you last night and dragged you off deep into the Forbidden Forest! HERMIONE: Hagrid, what was it? HAGRID (music) It was just one of those Things Just one with those bat-like wings One of those creatures so interesting Just one of those Things It was just one of those frights Just one of those hideous blights Something straight out of "The Lord of the Rings" Just one of those Things And it threw a fit, as it scratched and bit As we wrestled over the ground I was close to death for its raging breath Was too hot, wouldn't cool down It was gruesome and a threat I'm hoping it'll be a great pet It is such fun `Cause it is just one of those Things (Enter The Thing, which bounds over to HAGRID, and nuzzles him affectionately. Exit the TRIO, screaming in horror) - CMC (OK, now it's back to the Beatles) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Nov 5 00:14:54 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 00:14:54 -0000 Subject: FILK: Flying Blue Machine Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46094 What, you thought I was going to stay out of the Beatles filk-fest? Hah! Flying Blue Machine to the tune of "Yellow Submarine" by the Beatles Harry: In the station of King's Cross, Between platforms ten and nine, There's a secret passageway Only wizard folk can find. But we crashed into a wall When we tried to make that scene, Now we have to get to school In a flying blue machine. Harry and Ron: We went up in a flying blue machine, Flying blue machine, flying blue machine. We went up in a flying blue machine, Flying blue machine, flying blue machine. Ron: All our friends are on the train, Probably wondering where we are. And I wish we had some food. Harry and Ron: There's no food in the flying blue machine, Flying blue machine, flying blue machine. There's no food in the flying blue machine, Flying blue machine, flying blue machine. Harry: As we tried so hard to land, The Whomping Willow made its attack. I'm afraid that we've been seen; Snape is going to vent his spleen. Harry and Ron (simultaneously with below): We went splat! in the flying blue machine, Flying blue machine, flying blue machine. We went splat! in the flying blue machine, Flying blue machine, flying blue machine. Snape (simultaneously with above): Caught two brats in a flying blue machine, Flying blue machine, flying blue machine. Caught two brats in a flying blue machine, Flying blue machine, flying blue machine. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 00:15:26 2002 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 00:15:26 -0000 Subject: is petunia dursley a squib? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46095 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christopher Nuttall" < christopher_g_nuttall at h...> wrote: > I think its pretty clear that Petuna is not a squib, but just an ordinary muggle. There are several points conected with this. > > All great points, but she could still be a squib if Mr. and Mrs. Evans were squibs as well and lived outside the wizard world. There probably aren't may jobs in the wizard world for squibs, so they may have had no other option or maybe there are rules re. squibs that we don't know about. I know this has been suggested before - especially since it explains why they were so happy about Lily being a witch. I also don't think its so out of line with the 'choices over heritage' theme, since Voldemort seems pretty hostile to squibs as well as muggle-borns - Tom!Voldemort seemed happy to have petrified Filch's cat for instance. -Ing From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Nov 5 00:18:23 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 00:18:23 -0000 Subject: FILK: He Came in Through the Hallway Painting Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46096 And another one... He Came in Through the Hallway Painting to the tune of "She Came in Through the Bathroom Window" by the Beatles. SCENE: The morning after Sirius Black's invasion of the Gryffindor dorm, the third-year boys discuss what happened. Ron: He came in through the hallway painting. He must have known the secret word. I saw him looming in the shadows, I came this close to being gored! Gryffindor Chorus: Didn't anybody see him? Didn't anybody hear? Look at how he slashed the curtains! Sirius Black was really here! Harry: They say he's always been a killer, Killed thirteen people with one spell. That low, betraying secret-spiller, I hope Dementors give him hell! Gryffindor Chorus: Didn't anybody see him? Didn't anybody hear? Look at how he slashed the curtains! Sirius Black was really here! Neville: I wrote my passwords on a parchment And left it lying near my bed. I tried my best to memorize them, But now Black knows them all instead. Gryffindor Chorus: Didn't anybody see him? Didn't anybody hear? Look at how he slashed the curtains! Sirius Black was realy here! Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 01:04:50 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 01:04:50 -0000 Subject: Mundungus Will Bite the Bullet in Book 5 (WAS: Who will it be?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46097 bugaloo37 challenged us thusly: > In an interview held while attending the London Premiere, JKR > stated for the record that a "bad death" will occur in book 5-one > she has found particularly hard to write. Okay folks-who will it > be? Now me: Well, I can't resist the urge to deposit my two knuts into the bag. What if it's a la Cedric - a character that's just been mentioned in passing in the earlier books that takes on a bigger role in Book 5 and then gets the axe in the end? This would actually make more sense to me than killing off one of the main characters when there are two books left to go in the series. So, on this premise, a likely candidate could be Mundungus Fletcher. He's been mentioned in passing in CoS and in GoF, and JKR said in an interview that we'll learn more about him in OoP. So my vote's for Mundungus (plus, I believe Mundungus is a kind of tripe, and JKR has said that tripe's the only food she won't eat, so it would make sense for her to kill him off if he reminds her of a horrid food...). ~Phyllis From msbonsai at mninter.net Tue Nov 5 01:28:32 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 01:28:32 -0000 Subject: is petunia dursley a squib? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46098 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christopher Nuttall" > wrote: > > 5) She does not seem to recognise Sirus Black when the MW is > alerted following his escape. (This struck me as odd, did she not > attend lily's wedding?) > > > > Do you really think Petunia would have attended the wedding? > bugaloo37 who thinks Petunia is a muggle-and not a very nice one at > that Now, Harry takes the photograph album and it's mentioned several times that Sirius does not look like the man in the album, until GOF when he starts getting haircuts and gaining weight from eating again. So, I think he was not very recognizable in the first place. Julie From trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no Tue Nov 5 00:33:06 2002 From: trondmm-hp4gu at crusaders.no (Trond Michelsen) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 01:33:06 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Classical Literary names in HP (how many can you list) In-Reply-To: ; from bess_va@lycos.com on Sun, Nov 03, 2002 at 10:56:47PM -0000 References: Message-ID: <20021105013306.B29590@crusaders.no> No: HPFGUIDX 46099 On Sun, Nov 03, 2002 at 10:56:47PM -0000, bess_va2000 wrote: > Mrs. Norris - the busybody aunt in "Mansfield Park" by Jane Austen > (from an interview with the creator herself...will have to look up > which interview...) In this interview (The Connection, October 12, 1999), she mentions that Mrs. Norris is from a Jane Austin novel: http://www.crusaders.no/~afhp/interviews/connection/03.%20Names.mp3 (about 400kB) She also talks a bit about Hagrid, Dumbledore, McGonnagall and Hermione -- Trond Michelsen From kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 01:00:13 2002 From: kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com (kateydidnt2002) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 01:00:13 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Dying and Terrible Book 5 Death (WAS Re: Dumbledore's Age ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46100 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ingachristsuperstar" > > BTW: We know the death in Book 5 will be a big fan of Harry's. > My money is on one of the Weasleys. The Creevey's seem a bit > too obvious. > > -Ing tehehehe! Random thought, what if the "fan" of Harry who dies is Rita Skeeter. Kateydidnt From ProfSnapeFan at aol.com Tue Nov 5 01:20:05 2002 From: ProfSnapeFan at aol.com (ProfSnapeFan at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 20:20:05 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who will it be? Message-ID: <51.26dafae5.2af876c5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46101 In a message dated 11/4/2002 8:07:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com writes: > > In an interview held while attending the London Premiere, JKR > > stated for the record that a "bad death" will occur in book 5-one > > she has found particularly hard to write. Okay folks-who will it > > be? I haven't heard anyone mention Snape yet? I'm not sure that would be particularly painful for her though. Considering he was patterned after one of her least favorite teachers if memory serves. It would certainly be painful for me in any case since he's my favorite character. The reasons I wonder though is: 1) Voldie's little speech at the end of GOF, about the missing deatheaters. 2). Also at the end of GOF when D'Dore tells Snape that he knows what he has to do. So I'm wondering, what if Snape's mission is to go back and spy among the DE's and Voldemort is not agreeable with that idea. Or he is killed in some way in yet another battle. I hope she's meaning another minor character as Cedric, but I've seen a lot of other good ideas in this thread. Many plausible victims. Joy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Tue Nov 5 01:37:26 2002 From: chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia=20Chrysshallie?=) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 14:37:26 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: is petunia dursley a squib? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021105013726.3693.qmail@web10410.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46102 --- Christopher Nuttall wrote: I think its pretty clear that Petuna is not a squib, but just an ordinary muggle. There are several points conected with this. I agree that Petunia is not a squib, because Rowling said that Lily is a muggle born. However, I think that Petunia is a witch. A witch that chose not to develop her magical ability. Does anyone know if Petunia is older or younger than Lily? My opinion on why she did not attend Hogwarts, unfortunately, only works if she is younger than Lily. Mr. and Mrs. Evans were delighted when Lily received her letter. They must have had a lot of talk about this, so excited about going to diagon alley etc that Petunia was in the background for a while. She was jealous and she expressed this in condemning the magical world. She called Lily a freak and all. Then a few years later her own letter came. Well, she had been condemning the WW, and she is too proud to admit that she was wrong. She then refused to go to Hogwarts. Her jealousy of Lily increased over the years, I imagined. She did not want to know anything about the magical world, which is why she was not aware of Hagrid existance. She did not come to Lily's wedding, because she did not maintain any contact with Lily after Lily left home (actually, I don't think she talk much with Lily when Lily is home for holidays) That actually makes me wonder about the how Mr. and Mrs Evans died. They must have been pretty young. Lily was only 22 when she died, her parents died before that, they could not have died of natural cause! Maybe a car accident or something? But...how come Petunia does not display any photo of her parents at home? If she does, Harry must have seen it! And Harry has never noticed Petunia going to visit her parents' grave either! I actually suspect that Mr. and Mrs. Evans are still alive,at least one of them, but Petunia doesn't want to have anything to do with them. A strange woman she is! Vinnia who is very glad that none of her neighbours is nearly as nosy as Petunia. http://careers.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Careers - 1,000's of jobs waiting online for you! From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 5 02:08:01 2002 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Meghan Stancil) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 21:08:01 -0500 Subject: Who will die? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46103 bugaloo37" wrote: > > In an interview held while attending the London Premiere, JKR stated > >for the record that a "bad death" will occur in book 5-one she has > found >particularly hard to write. Okay folks-who will it be? > Liz wrote >Although, as you pointed out, it doesn't have to be the death of a major >character, most of the people that run through my mind are major >characters. My gut instinct is that it will be Hagrid to die snip< What >does everyone else think? > >Lizbot > I agree, I really feel it will be Hagrid. I think it is a death that would be signifigant but not detrimental to the storyline. I mean someone close to Harry MUST die in the book the way I see it. JKR has stated several times that she really wanted to show what evil is like, so we have to have someone we truly care about die. (no offense Cedrick) However, if a trio member died, that would be it for most people. On a related topic, what death (besides the obvious) would make you really mad. For me it would be Sirius. I would just be mad if this man never got a little bit of happiness. megalynn44 _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls!Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 02:26:05 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 02:26:05 -0000 Subject: Wands and Who Uses Them In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46104 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fharraige" wrote: VAL Wrote: > *...And of course, you will never get such good results with another > wizard's wand." Mr. Ollivander, PS/SS, Chapter 5* > > If Ollivander's statement was true, then how could Sirius Black use > Ron's wand so well in PoA? And how could Barty Crouch Jr. conjure the > Dark Mark so easily in GoF? Wouldn't the wands fail, or at least > give a weaker result? > > Val bboy_mn replies: There is really no implication that you can't use another wand. When ever this subject comes up I like to use a music analogy. A concert violinist may go into a music story and take a cheap student violin an play it beautifully, but he 'will never get such good results' as when he plays his own personal violin. Or, a musician may go into a music store and play a dozen identical instruments until he finds one that feels just right to him; until he find one that matches him perfectly, but that doesn't mean he couldn't play all the other instruments he tried. It's the same with wands. There is a sort of harmony or a resonance between the wizard and the wand that matches him. If you are familiar with the concept of resonance then you are familiar with the excersize in which an opera singer shatters a glass with her voice. This is a characteristic of resonance. When the singer hits a note that resonates with the glass, the whole becomes greater than the some of it's parts, and this cascade of resonant energy provides the additional force necessary to shatter the glass. But both the glass and the singer function just fine together or separately with out that resonance. Point: any wizard can use any wand and perform magic, but they will perform their best most efficient magic with the greatest ease when using a wand that they are matched to. On the other hand, if what you are really asking is 'How could he use a BROKEN wand so well?', then the only answer I have is, that he got lucky. Ron was able to use his wand. It screwed up a lot, but not 100% of the time. So Sirius being a more experienced magician, and being, without a doubt very luck in general, just got lucky. Just some thougths. bboy_mn From nithya_rachel at hotmail.com Tue Nov 5 02:35:48 2002 From: nithya_rachel at hotmail.com (errolowl) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 02:35:48 -0000 Subject: Who will it be? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46105 Well, I get this eerie feeling that its going to be Bill Weasly.... For one, he's someone the entire Weasly family looks up to, not to mention Harry and the Trio. Yes, the death of Fred or George would be truly devastating, but so would Bills'- the first born Weasly, their pride and joy, infact the one that even Percy tries to emulate ...and he's a powerful enough wizard to make any battle interesting. He's been subtly built up through out GoF to be an important part of Harry's life - and to be very appealing to the readers.... he's handsome, clever, cool, loyal (in a way, he seems oddly similar to Cedric) ...Charlie has been mentioned more often in the preceding books, but its Bill who's carefully integrated into the plot in GoF. He's there to represent Harry's family along with Mrs. Weasly, and he's the only 'minor' character in at the ending...ummm, looks like JKR was consciously stressing his growing importance. And we already know he has a role to play in the coming war...he has been so deliberately included in the fray, that I truly fear for the life of our favorite curse breaker! From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 02:45:55 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 02:45:55 -0000 Subject: Flying over Hogwarts (was:Re: Do All Students Travel to Hogwarts by the HE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46106 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "frankielee242" wrote: > bboy_mn wrote: > > > I think it would be pretty hard to launch a suprise attack on > > Hogwards by broom. The worst the Death Eaters could do is land > > outside the grounds and come running in on foot. > > bboy_mn > > > There are a number of "secret" passages out of Hogwarts that have > been sketched on the Marauders' Map... which a faithful Death Eater > just happened to *borrow* from Harry several months before Lord > Voldemort's rebirth (GoF). > > Remember what happened the last time a student (Neville Longbottom > we're looking in your direction- PoA) left vital Hogwarts information > lying around? I'm betting that at some point Lord Voldemort will try > to use a copy of the Map, if not the map itself, to storm Hogwarts > through those "secret" passages. > > Frankie bboy_mn responds: Not arguing with you, but I am having a little chuckle to myself at the thought of a swarm of FAT Death Eaters trying to 'storm' the castle by squeezing out of a little opening in the back of a humpbacked wizard. An opening that Harry barely fit into. I think that would be a pretty slow 'storm' of the castle. I suppose they could blast their way through the caved in tunnel, but Filch already knows about that one, so they will be watching it. Actually, what you said is very intriguing, and I suspect that the DE's will try to take over Hogwarts, although I'm not sure what the method will be. Crouch Jr. is in no condition to tell anyone about the map, but he DID have the map for a while and we don't know what he told Voldemort during that time. So, you could be on to something. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 03:16:15 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 03:16:15 -0000 Subject: Who will die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46107 Meghan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On a related topic, what death (besides the obvious) would make you really > mad. For me it would be Sirius. I would just be mad if this man never got a > little bit of happiness.<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Fyre Wood (me) replies: I honestly think that it will be Hagrid that is killed why trying to protect Dumbledore. However, I think that killing off Draco would make me really mad. I love Draco to death and I think that would make me hate the series for good. Then again, if JKR killed off Neville I'd be even madder. Neville has already suffered enough.... don't need to kill him too! --Fyre Wood, who feels depressed after answering this question. From tmarends at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 03:27:25 2002 From: tmarends at yahoo.com (Tim) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 03:27:25 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Dying and Terrible Book 5 Death (WAS Re: Dumbledore's Age ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46108 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ingachristsuperstar" wrote: > Just to be different than everyone, I'm going to suggest that > Dumbledore will die in Book 6 - in fact I'm almost certain of it. > > Think about it. We need three more climactic moments (one > each for the next 3 books). We've been told many times that LV > never tried to take over Hogwarts during his first reign because > Dumbledore was too powerful. We can pretty much assume > that Book 7 will focus on an attempted coup of Hogwarts, the > most important social structure of the wizard world. LV will not > attempt this until Dumbledore is dead. So, we need a dead > Dumbledore by Book 7. But his death can't be a side note or a > sub-plot. It has to be a climactic moment. > > So, Dumbledore's death is the climax of Book 6, leaving Harry > without protection for the first time to save the day in Book 7. > > It just makes literary sense. > > BTW: We know the death in Book 5 will be a big fan of Harry's. > My money is on one of the Weasleys. The Creevey's seem a bit > too obvious. > > -Ing There are several "fan's of Harry's" people seem to be forgetting when guessing who might bite the big one in OoP. How about Cho? She's a fan of Harry's, and, as Harry's first crush, it would be extremely difficult to write about from Harry's POV. How about Oliver Wood? Sure, he's already graduated from Hogwart's, but his death would surely affect Harry. The same goes for Angelina Johnson, Katie Bell, and the third Chaser (sorry, don't have my books handy at the moment and for the life of me I can't remember her name... of course it will come to me the minute I hit the send button.) Harry's played on the same Quidditch team with them for the past 4 years... even if they didn't play last year because of the Tri-Wizard Tourny. I could also see Dean Thomas, who's had very little to do so far, really hit close to home for Harry. Just some thoughts. Tim From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 03:35:53 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 03:35:53 -0000 Subject: Who will it be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46109 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > In an interview held while attending the London Premiere, JKR stated > for the record that a "bad death" will occur in book 5-one she has > found particularly hard to write. > ...snip... > > bugaloo37 bboy_mn replies with trepidation: Well, I'm jumping into the quicksand again. JKR said there would be a 'bad death' coming, but did she specifically say BOOK 5, or did people just fill that in as an assumption? She has said in the past that death is coming, and it is safe to assume that since Voldemort is back, there will be death in book 5. But has she specifically said that a foreground character will die in BOOK 5; emphasis on the words foreground and BOOK 5. I think it's still too soon for a really major foreground heartbreaking death. So, if it is anyone, it will be a minor foreground character or it will be a background character, like Cedric, who moves to the forground. JKR is pretty trick. But when you are reading book 5 look for a person who is suddenly made especially endearing because that person is dead. Notice how Cerdric suddenly move into the forground, and how he and Harry gained each other's respect, and notice what a fair and noble person Cedric was. The poor guy had death tattooed on his forehead the minute the ink hit the page. If Collin suddenly becomes Harry's friend; dead. If he developes a relationship with Cho; dead. Also, remember before book 4 when JKR said death was coming that would be hard to write. I believe she even said she cried when she wrote Cedric's death; the death of someone she brought to life. So 'bad death' and 'death hard to write' have pretty broad meanings. We killed off every major character in anticipation of this 'hard to write' death only to discover it was Cedric the noble Hufflepuff. Someone suggested Bill; Bill and Charlie would be good candidates because they are part of Harry's surrogate family but are not that far in the forground that they aren't desposable. Neville is another good character to mark for death. We've already started learning more about his personal story and a subplot of the next book could be Harry learning some surprising things about Neville and his family. I suspect there is a closer connection between the Potter's and the Longbottom's than we have been lead to believe. This expansion of Neville's story and the heartfelt endearment it will bring is sadly the kiss of death. BUT I LOVE NEVILLE! I don't want him to die. For the moment, I personally, unsupported by any documentation, think that the primary forground characters are safe. It will be the death of a secondary forground character or a background character who moves to the forground. One small flaw in my theory, JKR's writing is so compact and efficient that massive amounts of story are contained in very few pages. This mean, in what she has said is a very long book, many many many things can happen. Many unpredictable things. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 03:46:40 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 03:46:40 -0000 Subject: Who will it be? Death = Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46110 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > > In an interview held while attending the London Premiere, JKR stated > > for the record that a "bad death" will occur in book 5-one she has > > found particularly hard to write. > > ...snip... > > > > bugaloo37 > > bboy_mn replies with trepidation: > > Well, I'm jumping into the quicksand again. > > JKR said there would be a 'bad death' coming, but did she > specifically say BOOK 5, or did people just fill that in as an > assumption? > ...megasnip... > > Just some thoughts. > > bboy_mn bboy_mn: I just read a bit of the interview in the OT-Chatter group. Yes, they were definitely talking about book 5. But I still stand by everything I said. It would almost be unimaginable for death not to occur. Now all we have to do is decide that the term 'bad death' means to JKR. I'm sure she said she cried when she wrote Cedric's death and that it was hard to write. So even a minor character death to her is a 'bad death'. OT: I wonder how many book will go out in the first printing? I'm guessing if Amazon.com was taking pre-orders, it would all ready be many millions of books pre-ordered. bboy_mn From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Nov 5 03:49:00 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 19:49:00 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who will it be? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12533519789.20021104194900@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46111 Hi, Monday, November 04, 2002, 7:35:53 PM, Steve wrote: > But has she specifically said that a foreground character will die in > BOOK 5; emphasis on the words foreground and BOOK 5. She did say BOOK 5, but not that it would necessarily be a foreground character. Hard to write, but she didn't give anything away as to how important the character is. The interview can be found here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/tv_film/newsid_2401000/2401765.stm -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Nov 5 03:57:22 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 21:57:22 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who will it be?/ wands and who uses them References: Message-ID: <025301c2847f$72a31a80$e89ccdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 46112 bugaloo37 writes: > In an interview held while attending the London Premiere, JKR stated > for the record that a "bad death" will occur in book 5-one she has > found particularly hard to write. Okay folks-who will it be? While > you are thinking-here is a fact to consider: JKR stated previously > that the writing of Cedric's death in book 4 was very traumatic for > her. This has led me to believe that writing any death is difficult > for JKR. I guess what I am saying is: a "bad death" does not > necessarily signal the death of a major character-just a thought. > But even so-who do you think it is? Okay, you asked. So here are my thoughts on the matter. First, Cedric wasn't a big character, as you said, but his death was difficult to write. However, I think it's important to look at how JKR is writing the books. They're from Harry's perspective. So what affects Harry in turn affects her or vice versa. Cedric's death was difficult on JKR because it was difficult on Harry because he felt responsible. He told Cedric to take the cup. So whoever dies either Harry will feel responsible for the death or it will be someone close to him. Since she just used the part with Harry feeling responsible for Cedric's death, I don't think that'll be it twice in a row. Later, yes, not now. So I think it will be someone close to Harry. Someone he trusts. Let's see, who does Harry trust? 1) Hagrid--first friend in the WW, first friend period. First birthday gift. First birthday cake. Etc. He was one of only three people (along with Hermione and Ron) that Harry felt comfortable being around after the 3rd task in GoF. Harry trusts him. Besides the basic things like Robbie Coltrane being signed for 5 films (with an option for two more, but that's just to keep it undercover I think), Hagrid's past being revealed already, etc. Hagrid is doomed. 2) Hermione--too early for her. I don't think she'll die anyway. 3) Ron--again, too early. He may die, but not until the end of book 7. 4) Dumbledore--I think he'll die, but not yet. He'll die either at the end of Book 6 or beginning of book 7 to leave Hogwarts vulnerable. 5) Sirius Black--this is who my mom thinks will die in Book 5. She doesn't even read the HP books, though she knows the whole story thanks to my big mouth. But anyway, there may be no basis, but she thinks because Harry trusts him and it would hurt Harry tremendously to lose him so soon after he found him that he will die. I'm hoping not. Those are the main people Harry trusts and confides in. I think first of all as long as Dumbledore is alive students at Hogwarts will be safe. Cedric only died because he was taken from Hogwarts. Students we know may die, but not yet. JKR has continually referred to numerous upcoming deaths, most of which will probably happen in books 6 and 7. Other possibilities: A Weasley (no, please!) Lupin--again, NO!!!!! But JKR has said he'd return in Book 5. Hopefully not to die, but who knows. Cho Chang--a student, so I doubt it. But we did develop a little bit of a sense that she's a nice girl, like we developed a sense that Cedric was a nice guy and look what it got him. bboy_mn writes: > On the other hand, if what you are really asking is 'How could he use > a BROKEN wand so well?', then the only answer I have is, that he got > lucky. Ron was able to use his wand. It screwed up a lot, but not 100% > of the time. So Sirius being a more experienced magician, and being, > without a doubt very luck in general, just got lucky. Ron had his new wand then. He got it at the beginning of PoA. So it wasn't a broken wand Sirius was working with. Richelle From dwalker96 at aol.com Tue Nov 5 01:58:48 2002 From: dwalker96 at aol.com (energizermummy) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 01:58:48 -0000 Subject: Who will it be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46113 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > In an interview held while attending the London Premiere, JKR stated > for the record that a "bad death" will occur in book 5-one she has > found particularly hard to write. Okay folks-who will it be? > bugaloo37 Donna replies: Since book one, it is obvious Dumbledore has to die (think: Obi Wan Kenobi) and also I have suspected Snape will sacrifice his life at some point for Harry. I am not sure if Book 5 is it, seems a bit early. And as far as it being a "bad" death, I agree, it doesn't necessarily mean it is the death of a major or even beloved character. Harry losing Cho would be painful- they aren't an official item, but certainly someone he seems emotionally invested in, and someone LV could use as leverage against Harry in a hostage type situation. Donna From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 02:04:49 2002 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 02:04:49 -0000 Subject: Who will it be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46114 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > In an interview held while attending the London Premiere, JKR stated > for the record that a "bad death" will occur in book 5-one she has > found particularly hard to write. Okay folks-who will it be? While > you are thinking-here is a fact to consider: JKR stated previously > that the writing of Cedric's death in book 4 was very traumatic for > her. This has led me to believe that writing any death is difficult > for JKR. I guess what I am saying is: a "bad death" does not > necessarily signal the death of a major character-just a thought. > But even so-who do you think it is? > > bugaloo37 I think the two phrases we have for the key death in Book 5 is that the person is a "special fan" of Harry's, and (from the above) that it was a "bad death" and hard for JKR to write. I'm wondering how carefully the word "fan" was chosen? To me, a fan is someone who's an admirer, but probably doesn't get to interact with the person admired. Case in point: I'm a fan of JKR but I've never been within several hundred miles of her. If that's the case, the "special fan" is probably not somebody who lives at Hogwarts. So who's a special fan of Harry who doesn't live at Hogwarts, whose death would be hard to write? I can think of two that I don't think have come up yet. My first thought: Sirius Black. Harry spent a great deal of time worrying about alerting Sirius when his scar hurt in GoF. He worried that Sirius leaving his hiding place to come back in the vicinity of Hogwarts could place Sirius in danger. Foreshadowing? Sirius is off to round up the old crowd, a group he's presumably part of, and likely that group spent a lot of time fighting Voldie the first time -- who's to say it won't happen again? In such a fight, someone physically and mentally drained from a dozen years of imprisonment at Azkaban and poor nourishment would be a good bet to fall prey to a DE curse. Then there's the Rita Skeeter problem. IIRC (sorry, don't have the book handy), Rita-the-beetle was around when Dumbledore asked Sirius- the-dog to reveal himself to Snape and the Weasleys. If Rita gets free, or Hermione lets her loose -- can't you see Rita reporting the news that the evil Sirius Black is an unregistered animagus in the form of a big black dog? Target practice for hero-wannabes in the MoM, perhaps? And I've no doubt it would be a bad death, because Harry's godfather, the only parent he's ever felt he had -- remember, when his scar hurt in GoF and he wondered what to do, he wished he had a parent to talk to about it, and immediately thought of Sirius. Which brings me to my second possibility: Molly Weasley. Her motherly hug of Harry at the end of GoF, her babying of him during his visits to the Burrow, her genuine worry about him during the Triwizard Tournament -- all make her seem Harry's surrogate mother. Her death would be hard for Harry, and it would be hard for JKR to write as it would undoubtedly remind her of her own mother's death. Molly is also a target for the DEs: Arthur will likely be a major player in organizing the Voldie resistance, and Molly or the kids would be perfect bargaining tools with Arthur if kidnapped, or de-motivators to Arthur if killed. "aja_1991" From cloakofgold at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 02:31:13 2002 From: cloakofgold at yahoo.com (Patricia Morrison) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 18:31:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2232 In-Reply-To: <1036447982.6088.55224.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021105023113.46700.qmail@web40610.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46115 Alina: > Do you remember the year in which Dumbledore > defeated Grindewald? > 1945. I > always found that curious. Christi: And somehow, I doubt it's coincidence. Also, I'm not very good with name origins but "Grindewald" sounds like it might be German in origin. Could it be there was a "Wizard World War" paralleling the conflict in the Muggle world? Was Hitler's rise to power due, in part, to having a dark wizard on his payroll? Some things to consider. Hello! My first post on this list... Many of you might not be aware that Hitler was deeply interested in the> occult and "dark side" stuff, and his Wormtail, Goering, was into it even more, even actively searching for the Holy Grail and the Spear of Longinus to use them for foul purposes. And the swastika, an ancient symbol of the Light and the Sun when it rotates in a clockwise direction, was reversed and corrupted as the Nazi symbol. Like the mark of the Death Eaters, in fact... It is a matter of historical record that Hitler made many of his decisions, such as the invasions of Poland, Austria and Czechoslovakia, based on astrological data--when his star was in the ascendancy. There is a well-documented story of RL British Witches and magical practitioners getting together on Lammas Night, 1940, to do a white-magic working, visualizing archangelic powers protecting Britain, to keep Hitler from a full-scale invasion. Everything was in place: troops, boats, the whole thing. And yet he never launched the attack. In light of all this, I wonder how much Jo Rowling has read of these events...certainly it was the first thing I thought of when I read about "Grindelwald"... "Patricia Morrison" From i_karkaroff at yahoo.ca Tue Nov 5 02:50:17 2002 From: i_karkaroff at yahoo.ca (i_karkaroff) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 02:50:17 -0000 Subject: A note on law: (relates to WW Vs. MW) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46116 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: > Now, if the MW government knows about the WW, they can't change their laws to reflect this, because they'll be laughing stocks. More to the point, how can they catch a fully trained wizard? I don't think they can. I believe that this is where the various Ministries, or equivalent agencies would step in. Remember, the chief function of the English Ministry of Magic is to suppress information about the WW getting into the MW. Necessarily, part of this suppression is to strictly control magic that could affect the perceptions of the MW - they could not allow a magical criminal to hare about the country, having a grand old time, because sooner or later, those pesky Muggles would start to catch on. And supporting the Ministry is a core of Aurors, Obliviators and Unspeakables and the various departments, which manage magic, so it's unlikely that it should find itself entirely unable to cope with tracking a criminal using magical means. In Sirius Black's case ? the only 'criminal' that readily springs to mind ? the Ministry wasn't able to find his hiding spots in the Muggle world, precisely because he was avoiding the use of magic. A regular criminal, say, a thief, would be using magic rather frequently. >Now, its possibly that the effect that magic has upon technology is >refected when there's enough technology around, but we don't know >that. While that's an interesting possibility, I don't see anything in the text, as of yet, to suggest such a reversal. If technology precluded the use of magic, as magic does for tech, than wouldn't this have been noted, say in a large Muggle city with a concentration of tech? Surely if this were true, then magic would be inaccessible in London. ~ MartianHousecat From sladjanast at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 04:34:51 2002 From: sladjanast at yahoo.com (sladjanast) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 04:34:51 -0000 Subject: Wands and Who Uses Them In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46117 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fharraige" wrote: > *...And of course, you will never get such good results with another > wizard's wand." Mr. Ollivander, PS/SS, Chapter 5* > > If Ollivander's statement was true, then how could Sirius Black use > Ron's wand so well in PoA? And how could Barty Crouch Jr. conjure the > Dark Mark so easily in GoF? Wouldn't the wands fail, or at least > give a weaker result? > > Val But, isn't it obvious that Mr Olivander is talking about his wands, i.e. the wands that he makes meaning to say that you will never get such good results with another *maker's* wand not just some other wizard's wand that you happen to borrow or use. In other words, he is praising his own work in you-wll-never-get-this-great-wands-anywhere- else manner or at least that's how I understand the passage. However, I was wandering too, every time someone in the book used somebody else's wand. I think I took Olivander's 'the wand chooses the wizard' performance too literaly. After all, Harry did seem to perform magic even with the wrong wands, only it was not as precise and as smooth as with *his* wand, the one ment for him. Sladjana From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Tue Nov 5 06:02:46 2002 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 06:02:46 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Dying (WAS Re: Dumbledore's Age ) In-Reply-To: <022901c28452$46d2ccc0$ef1ae23e@computer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46118 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., m.bockermann at t... wrote: > Phyllis wrote: > > >JKR > > said that Dumbledore is currently 150 years old. Which would have > > made him approximately 100 years old when Riddle was at Hogwarts > > 50 years ago. > > > > That being said, I unfortunately agree with Greg's conclusion that > > Dumbledore's a goner this time. > > > And Lizbot added: > >>> As was brought up two posts ago, Hagrid says that as long as > Dumbledore is around, everything will be fine, or something like > that. If that isn't foreshadowing, I don't know what is. My only > reason for thinking Dumbledore wouldn't die in Book Five is the > question of who would be headmaster/mistress after him? McGonagall? > Snape? I don't know. I imagined he would die in Book Seven. What > does everyone else think? If he did die, who would fill his > position? > > Me: > Add to that the way Harry notes Dumbledore looking old and worn at > the end of GoF. DDs death's would make a nailbiting cliffhanger and > it would set the stage for book 6 and 7. Since I believe that Snape > will be busy with DD's mission, I'd bet my money on McGonagall. That > would make DD's the bad one... and the terrible? Hagrig, maybe? > How about this - Dumbledore dies in Book 5, but stays on as headmaster as a ghost in Book 6 & 7, ala Professor Binns. This might invite Star Wars comparisons, though... --Arcum From anglinsbees at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 10:05:34 2002 From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 10:05:34 -0000 Subject: Vampires in th Hp Universe- Help please? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46119 Hello Been thinking about vampires recently, and was considering their role in the HP-verse. Does anyone else find it significant that they were, perhaps pointedly, left of Fantastic Beasts? Maybe JK Rowling is hiding something to be revealed in a later book... About all that we do know is; Garlic repels them somehow- Neville was confused by this while writing his Paper in POA. They buy Blood Flavored Lolliepops at Honeydukes. (POA) This suggests to me that they might be slightly more accepted in Magical Society than, say, werewolves- we don't hear of anyone marketing anything to them. Someone (A Griffindor, I think, Anyone Recall Who?) Suggests that the new DADA instructor might be a Vampire. Anyone recall any more instances whre vampires are mentioned in the books? I'm not talking abut vampires (Sinistra, Snape, The Balaclava dressed figure.) but actual, for sure references to vampirisim. Thanks everyone! Ellen The Pottering Beekeeper From gandharvika at hotmail.com Tue Nov 5 12:07:28 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 12:07:28 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Professor Sprout's Greenhouse Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46120 Professor Sprout's Greenhouse (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _An Octopus's Garden_ by the Beatles) Listen to it here: http://www.geocities.com/michellesrockinatoz/RealAudio.html Neville = Ringo Starr: Like to study Herbology With Professor Sprout in greenhouse number three What merriment those hours well spent With Professor Sprout in greenhouse number three Ron and Harry and Hermione Along with Justin Finch-Fletchley Like to study Herbology With Professor Sprout in greenhouse number three Like to study Herbology With Professor Sprout in greenhouse number three Once a week all of us meet With Professor Sprout in greenhouse number three We gather 'round the flower beds Listening to each word that Sprout says Like to study Herbology With Professor Sprout in greenhouse number three Like to study Herbology With Professor Sprout in greenhouse number three Sometimes we weed or plant some seeds With Professor Sprout in greenhouse number three It's really great to be in this place I don't have to see Snape's ugly face Like to study Herbology With Professor Sprout in greenhouse number three In Professor Sprout's greenhouse In Professor Sprout's greenhouse -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Get a speedy connection with MSN Broadband. Join now! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp From smiller_92407 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 12:40:34 2002 From: smiller_92407 at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 12:40:34 -0000 Subject: Who will it be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46121 People have presented many possibilities of fans of Harry's who may be in line for the Grim Reaper. I'd like to suggest another. Arabella Figg. She's been watching over Harry since he was a baby, taking unknown risks. That would qualify her as "a special fan of Harry's". Her character is ripe for development, just in time to be offed, just like Cedric. We've been told we will hear more about her in this book. I think some of the other suggestions people have come up with may also have their days numbered, but I think it's too soon for Dumbledore, Ron, Sirius, my dear Snape, Hagrid, Neville, et all. Some of these surely are doomed, but I think it's too early. So that's why I think it's Arabella in the crosshairs this trip. Buh-bye! Constance Vigilance Off moderated status - woohoo! From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 5 14:03:30 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 14:03:30 -0000 Subject: Who will it be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46122 For those who are interested the newsround site is running a poll: http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/vote/votes/newsid_2402000/2402179.st m Last I looked I think Hagrid was favorite. As for my views - a Weasley has to die somewhen theres just too many off them for them all to live my moneys on either Ginny - she almost died in COS (is that foreshadowing?) she's the youngest and the only girl - that sort of singles her out. Or a twin - just because I can see a DE killing one in front of the other - it's the sort of cruel twist you'd expect ( maybe this means it wont be them). I also think that Hagrids and Dumbledores days are numbered... Michelle From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 5 14:12:38 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 14:12:38 -0000 Subject: Vampires in th Hp Universe- Help please? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46123 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ellen & John Anglin" wrote: > Hello > Been thinking about vampires recently, and was considering their > role in the HP-verse. > Does anyone else find it significant that they were, perhaps > pointedly, left of Fantastic Beasts? > Maybe their not classified as beasts at the start of the book theres a section detailing how a beast is classified a beast - can't remember the exact phrasing - something about inteligence, understanding language etc. However I do remember that the only reason centaurs are classified as beasts is because they asked to be and I'm sure it says in one of the notes about werewolves that they were only classified as beasts when they were in their wolf form. So maybe the vampires intelligent (for lack of a better word) enough not to be classified as a beast. Michelle From bruinfan1988 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 08:05:11 2002 From: bruinfan1988 at yahoo.com (bruinfan1988) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 08:05:11 -0000 Subject: Who will it be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46124 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "aja_1991" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > > In an interview held while attending the London Premiere, JKR > stated > > for the record that a "bad death" will occur in book 5-one she has > > found particularly hard to write. Okay folks-who will it be? > While > > you are thinking-here is a fact to consider: JKR stated > previously > > that the writing of Cedric's death in book 4 was very traumatic > for > > her. This has led me to believe that writing any death is > difficult > > for JKR. I guess what I am saying is: a "bad death" does not > > necessarily signal the death of a major character-just a thought. > > But even so-who do you think it is? I tend to agree with those who think Hagrid might be the one to die, given that: 1) he's been portrayed as relatively harmless, bumbling and very trusting, and therefore may be less able to protect himself and less on guard, 2) his great "what's coming will come and there's no use worrying about it" line, which, if he died would certainly be dredged up, 3) the effect on Harry, who would lose a surrogate big brother/father, first friend, etc. and feel incredibly guilty, 4) the fact that Hagrid's very niceness and decency would contrast sharply with the evilness of his killer, 5) he's a huge fan/supporter of Harry's, so would fit within the "big fan" hint, 6) JKR is on record that he's one of her favorites, so his death would be hard for her to write, personally, as well as hard to write from Harry's perspective, 7) as others have pointed out, Robbie Coltrane was only cast for five movies (despite being JKR's first choice for the role of Hagrid and other adult actors being signed for all seven), and, despite that, has said (as I recall) he'll be around as long as his character is and has indictated that JKR has told him what the future holds for Hagrid, and 8) the last scene of the SS movie seems to emphasize that home to Harry, at least to an extent, is where Hagrid is (feeding into point 3 above, with the added benefit of possible JKR-influenced movie foreshadowing). Having said all that, I think it would be very interesting to see the effect on the relationship between Ron and Harry if a Weasley was killed. I'm sure Harry would think it was all his fault--and I'm not sure how I think Ron would react. And I think that Mrs. Weasley (or, possibly Mr. Weasley) is the most likely Weasley candidate, because of the "big fan" clue. bruinfan From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Nov 5 15:57:35 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 15:57:35 -0000 Subject: Who will it be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46125 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bruinfan1988" wrote: > > Having said all that, I think it would be very interesting to see the effect on the relationship between Ron and Harry if a Weasley was > killed. I'm sure Harry would think it was all his fault--and I'm not sure how I think Ron would react. And I think that Mrs. Weasley (or, possibly Mr. Weasley) is the most likely Weasley candidate, because of the "big fan" clue. I think you brought up another interesting point here. The effect on the Ron/Harry relationship of a Weasley death could be a major plot point. After all in book 4, we were shown that Harry and Ron were capable of being angry at each other and for an extended amount of time. I agree that given Harry's feelings of responsibilty he would feel any death in connection with Voldemort would be his fault-but the death of a Weasley-given Harry's growing connection with this family-would devastate him even more. I also agree that Ron's reaction is at this time hard to predict. Also I think another Weasley possibility mentioned recently, Bill Weasley is another strong contender-given the fact of Bill's work and the title the Order of the Phoenix, with its mysterious overtones. bugaloo37 From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 15:32:19 2002 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 15:32:19 -0000 Subject: Who will it be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46126 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bruinfan1988" wrote: > Having said all that, I think it would be very interesting to see the > effect on the relationship between Ron and Harry if a Weasley was > killed. I'm sure Harry would think it was all his fault--and I'm not > sure how I think Ron would react. And I think that Mrs. Weasley (or, > possibly Mr. Weasley) is the most likely Weasley candidate, because > of the "big fan" clue. The problem with the two clues on the death -- "bad death"/"hard to write" and "big fan" -- is that it could really be *anyone*. I mean, outside of the Death Eater crowd, is there really anybody who *isn't* a "big fan" of Harry Potter? (Yes, even Snape!) And given that Cedric wasn't exactly a noticeable figure in the first three books and his death was hard to write -- it could even be someone we haven't met yet (Davey Gudgeon?). Or maybe it's a "bad death" because the method of dying isn't pretty - - we've seen Wormtail lop of his hand, who's to say the "bad death" isn't someone losing their head, becoming a ghost, and joining the Headless Hunt to the consternation of Sir Nicholas? I don't know about Book 5, but I imagine that by the time book 7 ends, there will be a lot of death in the epic battles to come, and it's likely the people mentioned in this thread (Hagrid, Dumbledore, one or more Weasleys, etc) will be in the mix. Also, to focus on the word "bad" a moment -- could there be one or more "good" deaths? Meaning somebody we won't miss, or at least won't be sad about? Aunt Marge or one of her dogs? Wormtail's redemption? Moaning Myrtle (oh wait, she's already dead)? Karkaroff? aja From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Tue Nov 5 17:04:19 2002 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 17:04:19 -0000 Subject: Vampires in the Hp Universe- Help please? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46127 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ellen & John Anglin" wrote: > Hello > Been thinking about vampires recently, Haven't we all?? Well, maybe just me.... > > About all that we do know is; > > Garlic repels them somehow- Neville was confused by this while > writing his Paper in POA. > > They buy Blood Flavored Lolliepops at Honeydukes. (POA) This > suggests to me that they might be slightly more accepted in Magical > Society than, say, werewolves- we don't hear of anyone marketing > anything to them. > Interesting points, but we may actually know more about Vampires then we think, it all depends on who you're basing your idea of Vampires on: The literal sense, the folkloric view, The Bram Stoker sense, or the "Pop Culture" mythos. ( I attended a lecture on Dracula presented by Dr. Elizabeth Miller, a Dracula scholar, a couple of weeks ago and got a free book so what I'm about to write comes from her scholarly studies, not mine) In a literal sense, a vampire is someone who drinks blood. Pure and simple. There are actual documented cases of 'Vampirism'. In Folklore, Vampire-like creatures have existed for a long time. However, they were not handsome aristocrats, but corpses, often of those who committed suicide. In the Stoker sense, Here are Dracula's Traits.... He is potentially immortal and survives on the blood of other. He has the strength of twenty men and can shape-shift into the form of a wolf or a bat. He can appear as mist or elemental dust and has no reflection in a mirror. He casts no shadow and has hypnotic power over his victims. He can turn victims into vampires. He may not enter a household unless he is invited in and he loses his supernatural powers during daylight hours. He must sleep on the soil of his native land. He can cross running water only at the slack or the flood of the tide. He is repelled by garlic and holy symbols (crucifix, holy wafer). He can be destroyed by driving a stake through his heart and decapitating him ( though in the end he is killed with Knives). Notice that Stoker never said that Dracula COULD NOT go out in sunlight. In fact, he would walk around during the daytime, but with diminished powers. In the Hollywood sense, Vampires cannot go out during the day and they're quite hot. The modern version of Vampires, as exemplified by the likes of Anne Rices Brood, as being handsome and upper-class stems from a story by Lord Byron's doctor, John Polidori, called "The Vampyre" ( It was actually a fragment that Byron had discarded *, and Polidori reworked. Many think that the story was written by Byron. Even Goethe claimed it to be Byron's best work). The Vampire, as we know today, is actually based on Lord Byron. In the end, it all depends on what JKR is basing her knowledge of vampires on, or if she is even creating her own sort of vampiric race/culture. For more information, go to Dr. Elizabeth Miller's site: http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~emiller/ I would like to reiterate that all information in this post is based on Dr. ELizabeth Miller's work and research and not my own. -Sophineclaire ( So Snape can go out in the sun......) *This story, which preceeded Dracula, was the result of a challenge that Byron put towards Percy and Mary Shelley. Another story that came out of the challenge was Frankenstein. From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Nov 5 19:05:40 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 19:05:40 -0000 Subject: Vampires in th Hp Universe- Help please? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46128 Ellen & John Anglin wrote: > Does anyone else find it significant that they were, perhaps > pointedly, left of Fantastic Beasts? They do not belong there. According to the introduction, there are three classifications: Beast, Being and Spirits. The ghosts, vampires and other undead belong to that group. Maybe some day, JKR will publish the book "Fantastical Spirits and how to exorcise them". > Anyone recall any more instances whre vampires are mentioned in the > books? I'm not talking abut vampires (Sinistra, Snape, > The Balaclava dressed figure.) but actual, for sure references to > vampirisim. > > Thanks everyone! > > Ellen > The Pottering Beekeeper Vampires are mentioned in all four books - so far the only race/ creature/entity that has been and yet hasn't had any real appearance. Whether that's relevant or JKR's own private little joke mentioning the most famous terror undead creature without ever giving it a real role, I'll leave for others to theorize. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who is busy but still will find time to write his two new theories sometime soon... he hopes. From promethian_death at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 11:37:30 2002 From: promethian_death at yahoo.com (Promethia(also known as Millie)) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 11:37:30 -0000 Subject: Scabbars question from Book 1. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46129 I have question to everyone that I noticed once I began to re-read book one. This actually caught my attention and I was wondering if anyone has brought it to the groups' attention, so I thought I would ask since I couldn't find it in the message logs. At the end of Chapter Twelve: The Mirror of Erised (SS/PS, Pg. 214, US Paperback) it reads: *It was only when he was back in bed that it struck Harry that Dumbledore might not have been quite truthful. But then, he thought, as he shoved Scabbers off his pillow, it had been quite a personal question.* Now my question is, why was Scabbers (Pettigrew), on Harry's pillow? Is Ron *that* restless of a sleeper or could this be a hidden clue that Pettigrew may have already been serving Voldemort as a spy again? Or could I just be over analising this particular instance? Could it be possible that maybe he somehow knew, even then, that Voldemort was on his way back, so to speak, and was already starting to formulate plans and inteligence gathering. We have no clue what information Pettigew told Voledmort once he escaped and found babymort after PoA. Could I have actually found something? Or am I just overanlising? I really appreciate feed back, and hope no one tears this up too bad since this is my first post. I also have some more things I wish to discuss about the Location of Hogwarts, but I'm not posting till I know no one has brought it up before. I may even try a Tbay for this one. But I don't know. Respectfully, Promethia From the5thmarauder at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 16:49:05 2002 From: the5thmarauder at yahoo.com (the5thmarauder) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 16:49:05 -0000 Subject: Mundungus Will Bite the Bullet in Book 5 (WAS: Who will it be?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46130 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > bugaloo37 challenged us thusly: > > > In an interview held while attending the London Premiere, JKR > > stated for the record that a "bad death" will occur in book 5- one > > she has found particularly hard to write. Okay folks-who will it > > be? > > Now me: > > Well, I can't resist the urge to deposit my two knuts into the bag. > What if it's a la Cedric - a character that's just been mentioned in > passing in the earlier books that takes on a bigger role in Book 5 > and then gets the axe in the end? This would actually make more > sense to me than killing off one of the main characters when there > are two books left to go in the series. > > So, on this premise, a likely candidate could be Mundungus Fletcher. > He's been mentioned in passing in CoS and in GoF, and JKR said in an > interview that we'll learn more about him in OoP. So my vote's for > Mundungus (plus, I believe Mundungus is a kind of tripe, and JKR has > said that tripe's the only food she won't eat, so it would make sense > for her to kill him off if he reminds her of a horrid food...). > > ~Phyllis Excuse me if I sound confused, I just joined your group. I disagree, I don't think that Mundungus Fletcher will be killed in book five. She has said at the London Premire of CoS that the murder was very hard to write, it was also sited in an interview located on the HPGalleries site that the murder was an "end of an era." Fletcher was not part of an era. It is more likely that Hagird is the one to get the 'axe.' For a number of reasons. 1. Hagrid is not central to the main plot of Harry's quest to defeat the Dark Lord Voldemort. If you were to take Hagrid out of the plot, nothing would change other than Harry's broken heart. 2. Dumbledore asked for Hagrid to help in getting the Giants on their side, as well as Madam Maxine, in GoF. It is likely that Voldemort will kill him when he tries to gain alliances with the Giants. 3. One of JKR's favorite characters is Hagrid. This would be why it is so horrible to write. 4. Hagrid is a father figure to Harry, even Rita Skeeter pointed that out to Harry. JKR doesn't seem to want Harry to have a father, for Sirius is also still on the run. Hagrid, however, is an easy target. --The5thmarauder From danischmell at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 19:30:39 2002 From: danischmell at yahoo.com (danischmell) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 19:30:39 -0000 Subject: Who will it be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46132 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "aja_1991" wrote: > The problem with the two clues on the death -- "bad death"/"hard > to write" and "big fan" -- is that it could really be *anyone*. > I mean,outside of the Death Eater crowd, and Cedric wasn't > exactly a noticeable figure in the first three books and his death > was hard to write -- Or maybe it's a "bad death" because the > method of dying isn't pretty - we've seen Wormtail lop of his > hand, who's to say the "bad death" >>> > I tend to agree with this way of thinking, I can't imagine losing a character like Hagrid, I think he is to intregal to go, and I think a Weasley death would be too much, it could happen, but I dont like to think it would, and I definitely dont think Ginny would be the one to go, in reference to a earlier comment.. I personally believe (at least at this point in time) Ginny and Harry will end up together, I think she will play a much bigger part in the up coming books.. in reference to the "big fan" when I heard that I thought of Colin Creevey, he's harry's most obvious "fan", and if something happened to him Harry would definitely feel responsible. The "bad" death could definitely infer perhaps a more gruesome death, than a death of an overly important character. So Colin gets my vote. Danielle From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Nov 5 19:42:48 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 19:42:48 -0000 Subject: Book Titles: How they relate to Voldemort and Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46133 I started thinking about the four book titles we have so far and the 5th book title we will hopefully have soon. Here's what I came up with: Book 1: Philosophers/Sorcerers Stone-something Voldemort wants- Harry prevents him from getting it; Book 2: Chamber of Secrets-Tom Riddle aka Voldemort lives again-Harry stops him; Book 3: Prisoner of Azkaban-Sirius wants to kill Pettigrew-Harry stops him, Pettigrew escapes makes it back to Voldemort; Book 4: Goblet of Fire-Voldemort wants Harry-gets Harry-is reborn-tries to kill Harry- fails 2nd time. Now on to book 5: is the order of the phoenix something else Voldemort wants/needs to reinforce his power? How will Harry stop him this time? bugaloo37 From jadethe2nd at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 19:46:39 2002 From: jadethe2nd at yahoo.com (Jade) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 11:46:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: who will it be? In-Reply-To: <1036466179.3017.40183.m6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021105194639.64209.qmail@web21409.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46134 bugaloo37 wrote: > JKR stated previously > that the writing of Cedric's death in book 4 was very traumatic for > her. This has led me to believe that writing any death is difficult > for JKR. I guess what I am saying is: a "bad death" does not > necessarily signal the death of a major character-just a thought. > But even so-who do you think it is? My thoughts exactly. The death isn't necessarily bad because of our or Harry's feelings about the person who dies, it could be more to do with the WAY in which this person dies (or the fact that anyone dies at all). Bad could of course mean violent, but I don't think that's it. It could also mean meaningless, but then it could be too much like Cedric's. I'm thinking betrayal. I'm not sure how or who, but that would certainly be a 'bad death', with a lot of very strong emotions involved. It would also be interesting to see how Harry reacts, seeing that his parents are also dead because someone betrayed them. Then again, JKR might not want to to another 'big' death by betrayal. So what about a heroic death which in the end accomplishes nothing? That would be bad. However, for this to work properly we would have to be emotionally involved with the character who dies this heroic death, which means it probably wouldn't be a 'small' character. Another thought about this death, though: Since the books are written from Harry's POV, isn't it logical to assume that Harry will witness this death as he did Cedric's, or at least the events immediately before and after? So what do you think this death will involve, and how will it be different from the one in GoF? I think it will be different in that the victim KNOWS that they are going to die; the killer will toy with them (and Harry), and perhaps force Harry to watch. However, that's pure speculation on my part and is probably a bit too morbid. As to who is going to die, the possibilities are so overwhelming I'm not even going to venture a guess. But I did think of another reason for Fred or George (I don't think it will be both of them) to be the one: This is their last year at Hogwarts, meaning that after this book they won't be able to interact with Harry in the way they did before ANYWAY... so why not kill one of them (they could certainly be described as 'fans' of Harry's) instead of having them do the predicatble thing and open a joke shop (of course I don't think they would open their shop right after leaving Hogwarts anyway, but that's another matter)? Just a thought... Jade __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From saltwater at ev1.net Tue Nov 5 20:13:42 2002 From: saltwater at ev1.net (feumindra) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 20:13:42 -0000 Subject: Who will it be? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46135 Hello, all! Found your group through The Leaky Cauldron...and boy, am I glad...folks around me are REALLY starting to wonder about me. I am probably a more dedicated fan of LOTR, but Rowlings' the only other author who had made me actually WORRY about what will happen to the hero...the last time I felt that way about a main character was...well, when I read LOTR!!! (I used to read back to back, straight through a book until then!! But in trying to keep up with what happens to certain characters, I have been spoiled forever) I don't do that with HP, but after the 4th book, certain 'side' characters have become intriguing to me, so I hope I can join everyone here in discussing them. The only other forum I can find intelligent discussion is on Khazad-Dhum (my handle is 'esgaroth'). Anyway, I was a slow starter with the HP phenomenon, and then not too certain of it until the 3rd book...by that time, I KNEW I was going to be a big fan...I believe I am a bigger fan of it than my 8 yr old daughter! I live in Houston, Texas by the way. On the 'who will die' conversation, have any of you postulated that Rowling's 'special fan' might be Draco Malfoy? Seems to me that Draco is forever seeking Harry out to harass. Isnt there a phenomenon in celebrity fandom where some fans love to hate the object of their attention, and express their fandom by making life uncomfortable for them??? Maybe I am off base here, but in reading the parts where Malfoy goes out of his way to raise Harry's hackles, I keep wondering, 'why would Draco care? Doesn't he have his own stuff to do?' I realize that as a Malfoy, he may have a 'family obligation' to oppose Voldemort's Defeater, but I think I like Draco as a character to much to believe that he is so single minded and so without individuality as to waste his time trying to make life hell for Harry. I'm just rambling here to jump into the conversation. Talk with everyone soon!! Sharon Ferguson From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 5 21:20:05 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 21:20:05 -0000 Subject: Doomed, they're doomed! [Revised and expanded] Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46136 Based on a post made back in June: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39297 However, now revised, updated with people's suggestions and with estimated odds for death in Book 5 or death by Book 7. [Terminology: The British way of saying ` odds 100 to 1' (or whatever) is the same thing as ` a bet of 1 Galleon gets you 100 Galleons (plus stake back)if you win'. `Even money' means 1 to 1.] Note: Wagers of Thirty Seven Galleons, fifteen Sickles, three Knuts and a fake wand will be regarded with deep suspicion. Hagrid: In love, responsible mission, come to terms with his half- giant-hood. Doomed, he's doomed. (And JKR obviously loves Hagrid, so is he the Book 5 death she's going to find it very hard to write?) Odds: Book 5: Even money. By Book 7: Not accepting bets. I tell you, he's DOOMED. Sirius: Young, handsome, Harry's beloved Godfather, unjustly accused. Another completely doomed character. Death while Trying Bravely to Save Snape would be a bit obvious, but still workable. Besides, Sirius strikes me as the type who'd *enjoy* a good, redeeming death scene. Book 5: 50 to 1. By Book 7: Even money. Remus Lupin: Back in Book 5. Probability that JKR would find his death hard to write high, though werewolves can be surprisingly difficult to kill [ghostly voice says `the silvery hand the SILVERy hand ] Book 5: 20 to 1. By Book 7: 3 to 1. Dumbledore: Wise, noble, (grand) father figure to Harry, leads group of people through dangerous territory (so to speak). Has 'Watch out for the Balrog' sticker on his back. Book 5: 100 to1. Book Six: Three to one. Book 7: Not accepting bets. McGonagall: Currently too boring and underwritten to die. Book 5: 500 to one. Book 6: 500 to one. Book 7: 10 to 1 Snape: Currently too sneaky, mean and tough to die. His death in a Bravely Redeeming Fashion would have a very high nausea rating. Also A Good Person Who Has Done Evil Things, which could come in useful for Ron (see below). Book 5: 50 to 1. Book Six : 3 to 1. Book 7: Even money. Besides, at least one of McGonagall or Snape has to survive, as someone has to explain all the plot points at the end of Book 7. ;-) Neville Longbottom: More fun alive than dead, as currently hot favourite for Future Staff Member, with Tragic Past and possible Hidden Talents. Book 5: 50 to 1. By Book 7: 20 to 1. Draco Malfoy:And what a relief that would be! Draco's death would only be `horrible to write' if it was seriously gruesome. And would currently be fun to read. Which is probably not quite the effect JKR is aiming at, so: Book 5: 1 000 000 to 1. By Book 7: Even money. Side bets that Draco is strangled by Lucius Malfoy will be accepted at 10 to 1. Colin Creavey: Has already survived one near-death experience, so killing him off would be a bit of a shock. But JKR likes shocks. Book 5: 10 to 1. By Book 7: 3 to 1. Dennis Creavey: Yes. Well, we are talking about 'kill the spare' Rowling here. :-) Book 5: Even money. By Book 7: No bets accepted. Cho Chang: Would be hard on Harry. Would be great for the readers, as they would give a mighty cry of `Harry, she was no good for you, you really need [Hermione/Ginny/Draco/select SHIP/SLASH of choice]'. Book 5: 50 to 1. By Book 7: 20 to 1. Arabella Figg. Currently hot favourite for DADA teacher, which means she has a target painted on her back, has been handed an employment contract which contains the Black Spot, and is finding extreme difficulty getting any medical insurance. Book 5 death: 4 to 1. Book 5 permanent disablement: 2 to 1. Book 5 discovery that she is a vampire/zombie flesh eater/has pair of bolts in her neck: 2 to 1. Chance of keeping the job to Book 6: No bets accepted. Mundungus Fletcher: Who? Would you care? Would I care? Would JKR care? Book 5 (for it being the `hard to write' one): 2000 to 1 Book 5 (dying offscreen): 30 to 1. Death in any form by Book 7: 3 to 1. Any of the Weasley's: Probable. There's just so many of them. And it would give us a Deeply Moving Picture of Family Grief. Book 5 death of any Weasley family member: 10 to 1. By Book 7: Betting only accepted on *which* Weasley family member it will be. Mrs Weasley: Well, it would certainly be difficult to write. And difficult to read. And difficult for the entire Weasley family to get over. And difficult for Harry to get over. And difficult for Errol the owl to get over. And difficult for the ghoul in the attic to get over Book 5: 25 to 1. By Book 7: 5 to 1. Mr Weasley: He did hit Lucius Malfoy in the eye with an Encyclopedia of Toadstools [CoS, Ch.4]. Like his sons, this is rather high on the list of `101 things NOT to do to an Evil Overlord's Lieutenant if you want to live'. His death would be a good motive for OverAmbitious!Percy to realise How Evil The DE's Really Are. And it wouldn't be as difficult for everyone as Mrs Weasley's death would be. Book 5: 10 to 1. By Book 7: Even money. Bill Weasley: Bill is cool. Bill is a Curse Breaker. See Bill break curses. Bill wants to fight Voldemort. Look, there is a Grim on Bill's shoulder. Why is it there? Book 5: 20 to 1. By Book 7: Even money. Charlie: Works with dragons, which is flipping dangerous anyway ? doesn't *need* Voldemort to get himself killed. Also has not had much `screen time' by Book 4 and it's unlikely JKR will pull a `Cedric' on us twice. Book 5: 50 to 1 By Book 7: 2 to 1. Percy Weasley: More likely to give us a picture of Ambition Versus Morality And Family Loyalty as he has to decide whether to stick his head in the sand like Fudge, or support the rest of his family and ruin his career. Book 5: 1000 to 1. By Book 7: 10 to 1 Joins the DE's (with possible later repentence): 10 to 1. Joins the DE's by Book 7: 3 to 1. Gred and Forge Weasley: Back to `kill the spare' Rowling again. Also they hit Voldemort with a few well aimed snowballs, which is VERY high on the `101 things NOT to do to an Evil Overlord if you want to live' list. Book 5: 5 to 1. By Book 7: 2 to 1. Ginny: Too sweet. Besides, surely JKR exorcised her sadistic tendencies. towards Ginny by the end of CoS? Book 5: 200 to 1. By Book 7: 50 to 1. Ron: More likely to Betray Harry Then Repent than actually get killed. Symbolic hints are being dropped all over the place. Interestingly, when Harry read Ron's tea leaves he gave his future as 'trials and suffering' followed by 'great happiness' (GoF UK hardback, p. 81). Book 5: 1000 to 1. By Book 7: 20 to 1. Hermoine: Would be a bit suicidal, since she's JKR's alter-ego. However, her tendency to forget she's a witch under stress may lead her into serious problems. And JKR keeps getting noticeably upset that no-one ever asks `Please don't kill Hermione.' Book 5: 1000 to 1. By Book 7: 20 to 1. Becomes full time political campaigner for rights of oppressed species on graduation: 3 to 1. Harry: Could only be more doomed if he walked under a ladder while simultaneously waving at the Headless Horseman. But he may survive his death. Book 5: Are you mad? Do you think Books 6 and 7 have even the *slightest* possibility of being called `The Ghost of Harry Potter and ?' Book 7: Even money. Side bets that Harry will survive getting killed will be accepted at 3 to 2 on. And finally: Voldemort. Well, what do YOU think? Pip!Squeak From anakinbester at hotmail.com Tue Nov 5 21:20:44 2002 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 21:20:44 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Scabbars question from Book 1. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46137 Promethia wrote: >Now my question is, why was Scabbers (Pettigrew), on Harry's pillow? >Is Ron *that* restless of a sleeper or could this be a hidden clue >that Pettigrew may have already been serving Voldemort as a spy >again? Or could I just be over analising this particular instance? Well lets see, I think to fully answer that, we'd first need to decide how much of Peter's intellect would still have been there as opposed to rat instinct. Not that that would ever be agreed upon. My answers are going to come from my belief that after 11 years, Peter's personality would have been heavily influenced by rat instincts. However, the fact that Ron can let Scabber loose as much as he seems to (or Peter escapes as much) would indicate that the instincts aren't fully in control. It's also been my belief that Peter would not have hurt Harry ^^;; (had he not rejoined Voldemort! I don't think he was plotting to hand Harry over in my opinion. I think he would have just been the longest lived rat ever.) But I'll try and shove that aside for right now. Anyway, now that I've kinda established where I'm coming from: I think it was Peter who decided to crawl over onto Harry's bed and not any manifestation of "ratness" It's too much of an odd coincidence, and while I believe in those, I don't trust them, especially not in Haryr Potter books ^^;. Also, Harry didn't seem particualrly surprised to find Scabbers in his bed, so perhaps Scabbers had crwled over there before. Now, as for spying for Voldemort . . . . what would Peter expect to find in a bed? There would be pleanty of better places for Scabbers to go,e ven if he wanted some personal effect of Harry's so he or Voldemort could curse Harry later (hair etc). That makes me think that Peter was not in the bed to spy. Perhaps he found it comforting, or perhaps he was worried. Or *L* Maybe Ron does move around that much and Peter wanted an entire bed to hismelf, and Harry's was conviently empty. (my rats _love_ and empty beds. They covet empty beds, especially mine) >Could it be possible that maybe he somehow knew, even then, that >Voldemort was on his way back, so to speak, and was already starting >to formulate plans and inteligence gathering. Well that, I think is true, and in fact enarly unaviodable if Ron carries Scabbers with him as much as it seem to imply he does in the book. The trio may not have but everything together yet (I don't recall when they guessed it wwas Voldemort, but I don't think it was by Christmas) but I think Peter would have guessed what would be going on. I'm sure he knew, espeically later on, that it was Voldemort trying to come back to power. (which by the way, is my reasoning on why Peter didn't mean harm to harry. Peter could have not only handed Harry over to Voldemort the first year, but he could have gotten the Philosopher's Stone as well. All he'd have needed to do was stow away somehow until Harry had the stone.) >Could I have actually found something? Or am I just overanlising? Umm honestly, I don't know what Peter could have found that he wouldn't have already known. Harry doesn't seem to have taken much with him besides his personality, and the Diagon Alley stuff. Personalities maybe. I'm sure that would be valuable, but that wouldn't be anything you'd find in Harry's stuff. Really, it looks like mutant rat behavior to me more than anything else. There is a basis for it in a rat's behavior (active at night, liking warm large spaces with lots of blankets to nest in) but with a lot of Peter infulence, which would make him go to Harry's bed. A lot of Scabbers behavior is just slightly off rat like behavior. It's kinda of interesting to go back and read all the Scabbers passages once you know what he is. There's a great one in PoA. I should look it up. -Ani PS: please forgive any typos. There's not word processor of any type on this school computer, so I can't spell check 0.o Also, if anyone uses hotmail, can you tell me how you changed the format from HTML to text? I'm sick of not being able to respond from my e-mail account (anakinbester at hotmail.com) thanks. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Tue Nov 5 21:58:34 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 13:58:34 -0800 Subject: Reports of Dumbledore's and Hagrid's Deaths Are Greatly Exaggerated (IMHO) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19526833060.20021105135834@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46138 Lizbot wrote: > My only reason for thinking Dumbledore wouldn't die in Book Five is > the question of who would be headmaster/mistress after him? There's no question in my mind... The next Headmaster of Hogwarts will Lucius Malfoy(!) And not from Dumbledore dying... I think Fudge is going to sack D ("We will have a discussion about the running of this school" -- Another ominous "Little Chat"!!) and instill his good friend, the impeccable, unimpeachable Mr. Malfoy; while D will be incarcerated in Azkaban. *This* I think is what Hagrid's "as long as we got him" is forshadowing. And yes, I think Azkaban is the "Magical place we haven't seen" that Harry will visit, to rescue D, of course. As for Hagrid himself, my theory is Robbie Coltraine's _faux pas_ (the main "evidence" for a Book 5 death) was merely because Hagrid will be largely absent from Books 5 and 6, while he helps D negotiate with the giants and prepare a counter-army of monsters to V's "army of creatures whom all fear". I think Grubbily-Plank will teach CoMC for the next two years, at least. -- Dave From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 22:25:59 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 22:25:59 -0000 Subject: Defending Mundungus' Death (WAS: Mundungus Will Bite the Bullet in Book 5) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46139 the5thmarauder wrote (in response to my theory that Mundungus Fletcher will be the Book 5 death): > I disagree, I don't think that Mundungus Fletcher will be killed in > book five. She has said at the London Premire of CoS that the > murder was very hard to write, it was also sited in an interview > located on the HPGalleries site that the murder was an "end of an > era." Fletcher was not part of an era. and Pip!Squeak wrote (in her post summarizing likely death candidates): > Mundungus Fletcher: Who? Would you care? Would I care? Would JKR > care? Me again: OK, I'll admit Mundungus is a bit far-fetched (but you have to give me credit for an original idea!). But while we don't care about him now, it's possible that we may care about him in Book 5, if JKR tells us more about him in Book 5 the way she told us more about Cedric in Book 4. And I think Mundungus *was* part of an era - he's part of the "old crowd" that Dumbledore calls together at the end of GoF, which implies that he helped to fight Voldemort during his first reign of terror. And if Dumbledore is now summoning him to help fight Voldemort again, it's possible he'll be in the line of fire and possibly killed in the process. Pip!Squeak again: > Voldemort. Well, what do YOU think? Me again: Harry will kill Voldemort in Book 7. No doubt in my mind. ~Phyllis From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Nov 5 22:40:46 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 22:40:46 -0000 Subject: Doomed, they're doomed! [Revised and expanded] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46140 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bluesqueak" wrote: > > Based on a post made back in June: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39297 > > However, now revised, updated with people's suggestions and with > estimated odds for death in Book 5 or death by Book 7. > > [Terminology: The British way of saying ` odds 100 to 1' (or > whatever) is the same thing as ` a bet of 1 Galleon gets you 100 > Galleons (plus stake back)if you win'. `Even money' means 1 to 1.] > > Note: Wagers of Thirty Seven Galleons, fifteen Sickles, three Knuts > and a fake wand will be regarded with deep suspicion. > In this other definitive survey, you've left off a couple of major players: Dobby and Winky. JKR had earlier said that a "fan" of Harry will die in Book Five, and not even Colin Creevey could outdo Dobby in that department. Also, something has got to happen to galvinize the house-elves into some kind of concerted movement toward a greater freedom and independence. What better than the ghastly death of one of their own? One problem: the Death of Dobby doesn't seem that it would be especially hard to write. Dobby is a tad too pathetic to really merit the four-hankie Requiem treatment that JKR seems to be priming us for. Still, I would rate him as no better than even money to survive Book Five, no bets after that. Winky's death is much less likely. She provides minor comic relief, but her character has a chance to grow as opportunities for elfish liberty arise. So I'd rate her 100 to 1 in Book Five, 20 to 1 for Book Seven I agree with your take on Draco's death. To paraphrase Wilde on Dickens, it will be a hard-hearted HP fan who will read the death of Draco Malfoy without laughing. - CMC From mary-yahoo at puzzling.org Tue Nov 5 21:40:26 2002 From: mary-yahoo at puzzling.org (Mary) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 08:40:26 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who will it be? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021105214026.GD447@titus.spanky> No: HPFGUIDX 46141 On Tue, Nov 05, 2002, aja_1991 wrote: > Also, to focus on the word "bad" a moment -- could there be one or > more "good" deaths? Meaning somebody we won't miss, or at least won't > be sad about? Aunt Marge or one of her dogs? Wormtail's redemption? > Moaning Myrtle (oh wait, she's already dead)? Karkaroff? In the sense of "rather painless to read" or "not involving a character with whom we sympathise" GoF already had one: the death of Barty Crouch (the elder). -Mary From orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 5 22:54:02 2002 From: orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com (Anna Hemmant) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 14:54:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who will it be? In-Reply-To: <20021105162023.6725.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021105225402.8774.qmail@web20507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46142 I would like to propose Ginny as the most likely candidate for the 'bad death' in book five. She is a big fan of Harry's, she is a foreground character but not a pivotal one, and her death is likely to be more painful to write aboutfor JKR because of how close we as the reader (and, undoubtedly, her as the writer) feel to the Weasley family. I am a HUGE Ginny fan however, and perhaps I am steeling myself for the worst, as many others seem to be. I don't know. Ginny's death makes sense. The only problems I can see with this (I'll write them before anyone else can) is that a) she came very clos to dying in CoS, so perhaps it's too close to having been done before (if that makes sense) and b) I can't imagine her death having repercussions for Harry that don't involve a lot of guilt (that he couldn't save her or whatever) and that's definately been done before! Now this would be a huge blow to me, as I generally root for the Harry/Ginny 'ship, so please can other Ginny fans not curse my name! Orla The thin man had stepped out of the cauldron, staring at Harry ... and Harry stared back at the face that had haunted his nightmaresfor three years. Whiter than a skull, with wide, livid scarlet eyes, and a nose that was as flat as a snake's with slits for nostrils ... Lord Voldemort had risen again. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Nov 5 23:44:27 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 23:44:27 -0000 Subject: Vampires in th Hp Universe- Help please? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46143 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: > Ellen & John Anglin wrote: > > Does anyone else find it significant that they were, perhaps > > pointedly, left of Fantastic Beasts? Grey Wolf: > They do not belong there. According to the introduction, there are three classifications: Beast, Being and Spirits. The ghosts, vampires and other undead belong to that group.<< Perhaps not. On page xiii of the preface to FBAWTFT, it says the centaurs objected to some of the creatures with whom they were asked to share "being" status, such as hags and vampires. As Ellen pointed out in her original post, some types of vampires are not revenants. Ellen: > > Anyone recall any more instances whre vampires are mentioned in the books? I'm not talking abut vampires (Sinistra, Snape, The Balaclava dressed figure.) but actual, for sure references to vampirisim. > > Quirrell says he has to pick up a new book on vampires in Book One, chapter 5. CoS: The title of one of Lockhart's books is Voyages with Vampires. He claims to have dealt with one so that it could only eat lettuce. Harry's reaction to the photo of Sirius Black in PoA ch. 3: **** Harry had never met a vampire, but he had seen pictures of them in his Defense Against the Dark Arts classes, and Black, with his waxy white skin, looked just like one. **** **** In GoF ch. 9, one of the Veela-bespelled young men at the QWC claims to be a vampire hunter, and to have killed about ninety. In GoF ch. 10: According to Percy, Rita Skeeter wants the Ministry to stamp them out, but this is apparently forbidden by paragraph twelve of Guidelines for the Treatment of Non-Wizard Part-Humans. ****** And in the CTWSNBN Quirrell is apparently lecturing about them (which I note just in case JKR told them they *had* to mention vampires somewhere.) Pippin founding member of LOVESLAVE (League of Violently Enamoured Snape/Lily And Vampire Enthusiasts) From msbonsai at mninter.net Wed Nov 6 01:17:05 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 01:17:05 -0000 Subject: Voldemort the vampire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46144 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > Quirrell says he has to pick up a new book on vampires in Book > One, chapter 5. > > Harry's reaction to the photo of Sirius Black in PoA ch. 3: > **** > Harry had never met a vampire, but he had seen pictures of them > in his Defense Against the Dark Arts classes, and Black, with his > waxy white skin, looked just like one. > **** > Pippin Hmmmm . . . this is just too interesting. Why in the world would Quirrell have to pick up a book on vampires? Other than his post as teacher . . . I mean, we know he's already working with Voldemort. Could he be trying to turn Voldemort into a vampire? Could Voldemort already be one? To quote Orla's recent ending to her message: >Orla > >The thin man had stepped out of the cauldron, staring at Harry ... >and Harry stared back at the face that had haunted his nightmares >for three years. Whiter than a skull, with wide, livid scarlet eyes, >and a nose that was as flat as a snake's with slits for nostrils ... >Lord Voldemort had risen again. So . . . could be that JKR is keeping us in mind of vampires in all the books she's written for a reason, and yet not completely explained them yet in the books because she's building her own version of the vampire? Oooo I should have looked in the archives for this one, so I'll do that right now . . . Julie From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 6 01:48:02 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 01:48:02 -0000 Subject: Doomed, they're doomed! [Revised and expanded] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46145 Pip, if you don't mind, I would like to add a few characters who deaths might matter. Well and add a few comments. Can't post without my opinion sprinkled in a little. ;) Pip tediously and cleverly wrote out HP death score cards: > Sirius: Young, handsome, Harry's beloved Godfather, unjustly > accused. Another completely doomed character. Death while Trying > Bravely to Save Snape would be a bit obvious, but still workable. > Besides, Sirius strikes me as the type who'd *enjoy* a good, > redeeming death scene. > Book 5: 50 to 1. By Book 7: Even money. Since Black's only motivation for living right now is to protect Harry, I like the idea of Black being redeemed in the WW eyes by his jumping-in-front-of-speeding-train love. It would seem fitting that he would receive Order of Merlin First Class posthumous for saving the precious boy-that-lived. Plus Snape would be quite fuming if Black has one and he doesn't. > Remus Lupin: Back in Book 5. Probability that JKR would find his > death hard to write high, though werewolves can be surprisingly > difficult to kill [ghostly voice says `the silvery hand? the SILVERy > hand?] > Book 5: 20 to 1. By Book 7: 3 to 1. Do you think JKR would kill all of the Marauders? Seems Harry needs at least one. I mean we already have Hagrid and Black dying. That alone would completely devastate Harry. Still, Lupin is a rather attractively tragic character. Suffered for so long. He might as well be written by Dickens. > Dumbledore: Wise, noble, (grand) father figure to Harry, leads group > of people through dangerous territory (so to speak). > Has 'Watch out for the Balrog' sticker on his back. > Book 5: 100 to1. Book Six: Three to one. Book 7: Not accepting bets. Now wouldn't it be amusing if Ian McKellen did become Dumbledore. :) > Snape: Currently too sneaky, mean and tough to die. His death in a > Bravely Redeeming Fashion would have a very high nausea rating. Also > A Good Person Who Has Done Evil Things, which could come in useful > for Ron (see below). > Book 5: 50 to 1. Book Six : 3 to 1. Book 7: Even money. He seems too much of a survivor to die. Besides, if he dies, then Voldemort was correct in his prediction in the graveyard and that thought is greatly disturbing. > Bill Weasley: Bill is cool. Bill is a Curse Breaker. See Bill break > curses. Bill wants to fight Voldemort. Look, there is a Grim on > Bill's shoulder. Why is it there? > Book 5: 20 to 1. By Book 7: Even money. Hehe, you crack me up. > Charlie: Works with dragons, which is flipping dangerous anyway ? > doesn't *need* Voldemort to get himself killed. Also has not had > much `screen time' by Book 4 and it's unlikely JKR will pull > a `Cedric' on us twice. > Book 5: 50 to 1 By Book 7: 2 to 1. I would say he is the safest Weasley. Though, probably because he has those dragons in his pocket. After all, Voldemort did not send anyone to go get the dragons at his little soiree. I see Charlie coming to the battlefield on flying, flaming dragons. Voldemort hikes up his robes. Hightails it to safety under a rock. > Ginny: Too sweet. Besides, surely JKR exorcised her sadistic > tendencies. towards Ginny by the end of CoS? > Book 5: 200 to 1. By Book 7: 50 to 1. Forget death, my money is on a nice cat fight between Ginny and Hermione over Harry's young body. Come on, Ginny and Hermione are getting along *way* to well right now. H - "Harry takes long walks around the lake with me - *alone*." G - "Well Harry saved *me* from the evil, poisonous, massively scary Basilisk of Death!" Claws start flying, curses start bouncing, the guys in Gryffindor are staring transfixed. It is so in the stars. And I want to add- Peter Pettigrew: Weak. Pathetic. Betrays everyone no matter if good or bad. Seems he has created *way* to many enemies on both side of the field. But there could be a possible redemption, I can't deny it Pip. I doubt though he will be the surviving Marauder and be Harry's surrogate father figure stand-in. He needs to die the death he was made famous for. Book 5: 5 to 1. Book 6: 3 to 1. Book 7: even money. Lucius Malfoy: It is possible. He has been developed enough and hated enough. Still, dead? He's too rich to die. Book 5: 5000 to 1. By Book 7: 1000 to 1. Penniless in patched robes working for Borgin's as a stock boy: even. Melody From msbonsai at mninter.net Wed Nov 6 01:56:25 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 01:56:25 -0000 Subject: Voldemort the vampire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46146 And another thing concerning Voldemort as a vampire. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Hagrid say something in the beginning of PS/SS about there not being much *human* left in Voldemort? And someone just posted that the Vampires are part human according to JKR . . . . So what do you think? (I couldn't really find anything specifically about this in the archives.) Julie From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Nov 6 02:42:53 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 20:42:53 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Doomed, they're doomed! [Revised and expanded] References: Message-ID: <013501c2853e$355f4da0$d4a1cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 46147 PipSqueak! did a great job of laying down odds on just about everybody who could possibly die between now and book 7. Perhaps it would be easier to take bets on who will live to tell the tale? I simply can't resist, so I'll comment on a few. > Hagrid: In love, responsible mission, come to terms with his half- > giant-hood. Doomed, he's doomed. Yes, most definitely doomed > Remus Lupin: Back in Book 5. Probability that JKR would find his > death hard to write high, though werewolves can be surprisingly > difficult to kill [ghostly voice says `the silvery hand. the SILVERy > hand.] I am a bit worried about him. There's the fact that he is coming back in book 5, he's one of JKR's favorites so it would be hard to write. That could be putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5, though. I can always hope. > Besides, at least one of McGonagall or Snape has to survive, as > someone has to explain all the plot points at the end of Book 7. ;-) My money's on McGonagall living. She will finally get her due time in Book 7. She'll be the only one of the trio who delivered Harry to the Dursleys left alive. She'll have the last words in book 7, something like "Dumbledore was right. It was a handy thing, that scar." What kind of odds can I get on that? :) > Side bets that Draco is strangled by Lucius Malfoy will be accepted > at 10 to 1. I can actually see Draco's death becoming a horrible thing. When his father either allows him to die for his own benefit or in some way stands idley by while Draco dies a slow, painful death. But I think not in Book 5. > Dennis Creavey: Yes. Well, we are talking about 'kill the spare' > Rowling here. :-) > Book 5: Even money. By Book 7: No bets accepted. I almost wonder if Dennis' entire existence is only to be killed somewhere along the way. Poor kid. Cute little thing, too. > Mundungus Fletcher: Who? Would you care? Would I care? Would JKR > care? Sorry, pardon me. If we're supposed to care, JKR has a lot of work to do before he can bite the dust. > Mrs Weasley: Well, it would certainly be difficult to write. And > difficult to read. And difficult for the entire Weasley family to > get over. And difficult for Harry to get over. And difficult for > Errol the owl to get over. And difficult for the ghoul in the attic > to get over . Mrs. Weasley is the closest thing Harry has to a mother figure. I think before she can die she must fulfill her destiny. Harry must, at some point, cry on her shoulder. It is too often foreshadowed to not happen. What with all the hugs and the almost cry in GoF, it's gotta happen. After that, well, who knows. But she can't die until Harry gets his cry in. She just can't. > Ron: More likely to Betray Harry Then Repent than actually get > killed. Symbolic hints are being dropped all over the place. > Interestingly, when Harry read Ron's tea leaves he gave his future > as 'trials and suffering' followed by 'great happiness' (GoF UK If Ron indeed becomes the betrayer/repenter/etc. I think it will stem from a Weasley death. I don't know which Weasley death, but something that Ron considers Harry responsible for. Like somebody doing something to save Harry, something like that. But I think OoP is too early for that to happen. > Harry: Could only be more doomed if he walked under a ladder while > simultaneously waving at the Headless Horseman. But he may survive > his death. Yes! That's it! Harry dies, but survives his death. I been sayin' it. Ain't I been sayin' it? > And finally: > Voldemort. Well, what do YOU think? Inadvertantly commits suicide by killing Harry. Who survives his own death, somehow relating to Elixir of Life or pure innocence or something. So, there you have it! That's how Harry "kills" Voldemort without *killing* Voldemort. So Harry doesn't become a murderer, even in the best sense of the word. Richelle From lterrellgiii at icqmail.com Wed Nov 6 03:41:23 2002 From: lterrellgiii at icqmail.com (L. Terrell Gould, III) Date: 5 Nov 2002 19:41:23 -0800 Subject: Who will it be? Message-ID: <20021106034123.3702.cpmta@c012.snv.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46148 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From heidi at barefootpuppets.com Wed Nov 6 04:34:04 2002 From: heidi at barefootpuppets.com (barefootpuppets) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 04:34:04 -0000 Subject: Voldemort the vampire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46149 > Hmmmm . . . this is just too interesting. Why in the world would > Quirrell have to pick up a book on vampires? Other than his post as > teacher . . . I mean, we know he's already working with Voldemort. > Could he be trying to turn Voldemort into a vampire? Could Voldemort > already be one? You know, this had actually crossed my mind. I could only think about Voldemort's search for immortality and how that seems to relate to vampirism. And he was in Albania...Hmmm......Perhaps there is a correclation of sorts. It was with great interest that I read the other postings on vampires and all the Stoker information (re: can go out in daylight, etc...). What sort of spirit form was he in? Sounds sort of like that mist form of the vampire. "Death Eater"...what exactly are they eating, anyway?? Curious. Heidi R. From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Wed Nov 6 04:40:01 2002 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 23:40:01 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort the vampire? Message-ID: <14b.16f5df77.2af9f721@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46150 In a message dated 11/5/2002 11:34:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, heidi at barefootpuppets.com writes: > "Death Eater"...what exactly are they eating, > anyway?? Simple! They're eating death. I just found this out: "Morsmordre" (The incantation used to conjure the Dark Mark) means "take a bite out of death" in french. ^^ ~Cassie~ "If Severus Snape taught sex-ed, would he be called 'The Sex Master'?" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anglinsbees at yahoo.com Wed Nov 6 06:20:33 2002 From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 06:20:33 -0000 Subject: (Fil) Hedwig Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46151 Hedwig A filk by Ellen Anglin based on Blackbird by Paul McCartney White bird sitting in Eyelops Owl Shoppe, For the Boy who Lived, You'll be just right, Loyal friend, You were only waiting for this wizard to arrive. White Owl flying in the dead of night, Take this message, bear it faithfully. On silent wings, bear your burden safely `cross the land and distant seas, Hedwig fly, Hedwig fly, Into the light of the pale moon bright. Hedwig fly, Hedwig fly, Into the light of the pale moon bright. You were only waiting for this wizard to arrive, You were only waiting for your Harry to arrive, From cureluv88 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 6 06:55:50 2002 From: cureluv88 at hotmail.com (Liz) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 06:55:50 -0000 Subject: Doomed, they're doomed! [Revised and expanded] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46152 I just thought of a couple people who haven't been considered yet for who will die in OotP. What about one of the Dursleys? I know right now they basically just act like one-dimensional jerks, but it's hard to tell what difference a book could make, especially one that is longer than GoF. JKR has said that they will become more important. Personally, my money isn't on them, it's still on Hagrid, but they're a thought. What do you guys think? Lizbot From Freiol at aol.com Tue Nov 5 23:59:58 2002 From: Freiol at aol.com (Freiol at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 18:59:58 EST Subject: Lupin/Lockhart question Message-ID: <30.30277cdd.2af9b57e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46153 Hello Everyone, I'm sure that this question already been asked and probably answered already but one of my friends brought up the following converstion and I don't remember what was said to a similar question. If anyone can respond, I'd totally appreciate it. "In chapter 10 (p161) the last paragraph Lockhart talking to the class about how he dealt with a werewolf. Continue on to 162 and you see "he" performed the complex Homorphus Charm that turned him back into a man that apparently would no longer turn into a werewolf. so how come this charm has never been performed on Lupin? It would make his life a whole lot easier if he would stay human all the time. Lupin wouldn't have to take that potion anymore." Sian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From the5thmarauder at yahoo.com Wed Nov 6 06:22:44 2002 From: the5thmarauder at yahoo.com (CK Talons) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 22:22:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Doomed, they're doomed! [Revised and expanded] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021106062244.72374.qmail@web21309.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46154 Melody- I have to agree with you on many things, and I loved your play by play for Hermione and Ginny. However, Can you imagine Harry's therapy bill if Sirius kicked the bucket? Sirius is priceless to him, his Godfather, his soul connection to his orgins. I don't think JKR would do that to Harry or to us for that matter. Harry needs a role model, and Sirius is that person. Remus, I have thought of him croaking, for a number of reasons. Yes, the werewolf certainly and Peter having that nice silver hand. Not to mention the name "Remus" was the name of one of the founders of Rome who was killed by his twin brother Romulus. Were the Marauders not like brothers? I don't think she'll kill all of the Marauders, at least I hope not, I love them. Okay, Peter no biggie. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anglinsbees at yahoo.com Wed Nov 6 07:17:43 2002 From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 07:17:43 -0000 Subject: (Filk) Back in the Wizarding World Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46155 Back in The Wizarding World A Filk By Ellen Anglin Based on "Back int the USSR" By Paul McCartney, which is, itself, a Parody of songs by the Beach Boys and Chuck Berry's "Back in the USA" See- Even the Beatles did song parodies! Just swam in from Azkaban, I'm on the run, hidin' out both day and night Headed straight for Privet Drive to see Harry, Afraid I gave him quite a fright! I'm back in the Wizarding world, You don't know how lucky you are, boy, Back in the Wizarding world! Headed straight for Hogsmeade, hardly knew the place, Dementors on most every track. Nosed around village, picking up the news, Hid out in the shrieking shack! I'm back in the Wizarding World, You don't know how lucky you are, boy Back with the Wizards, Back, I'm a Wizard, Back in the Wizarding World! Still those Ministry Men want to find me out, They scour the countryside, Dementors guard the Hogwarts grounds, Where Wormtails always on my my my my my my my my my mind! Oh, come on, Hu Hey Hu, hey, ah, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah I'm back in the Wizarding World, You don't know how lucky you are, boys, Here in the Wizarding world. Still those Ministry Men want to find me out, They scour the countryside, Dementors guard the Hogwarts grounds, Where Wormtails always on my my my my my my my my my mind! I've got to get to Pettigrew that dirty rat, Before he can do Harry harm, If I can get the passwords then I'll just sneak in, Then Peter, boy, You'll buy the Farm! I'm back in the Wizarding World, You don't know how lucky you are, boys, Here in the Wizarding world! Back in the Wizarding world, Oh, let me tell you Crookshanks! From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Nov 6 08:23:34 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 08:23:34 -0000 Subject: Lupin/Lockhart question In-Reply-To: <30.30277cdd.2af9b57e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46156 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Freiol at a... wrote: Sian: > Hello Everyone, >...snip... > > "In chapter 10 (p161) the last paragraph Lockhart talking to the > class about how he dealt with a werewolf. Continue on to 162 and > you see "he" performed the complex Homorphus Charm that turned him > back into a man that apparently would no longer turn into a werewolf. > so how come this charm has never been performed on Lupin? It would > make his life a whole lot easier if he would stay human all the time. > Lupin wouldn't have to take that potion anymore." > > > Sian bboy_mn speculates: We have very little information about the aledged Homorphus Charm, so we really don't know what it does. Does it change the werewolf back to human for 30 minutes (or some other short time); just enough time for people to either secure the werewolf or to secure themself? Is it's sole purpose to stop an attack that is eminent or in progress, and therefore save the persons life as well as prevents the werewolf from becoming a murderer? Again, lasting only a short period of time. The point is we don't know that it is permanent. It could last a minute or a week. It would allow the towns people to identify the person who is the werewolf and either drive him out of their village, or find ways to prevent the danger by assisting or avoiding the person who is the werewolf. As you can tell from my examples, I lean toward it lasting for a brief period. It could still be very helpful, or at least it could if it really existed. Lockhart has been known to exaggerate a little bit. Just a few random thoughts. bboy_mn From anglinsbees at yahoo.com Wed Nov 6 08:33:19 2002 From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 08:33:19 -0000 Subject: Vampires in th Hp Universe/ Immortality and Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46157 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: > Ellen & John Anglin wrote: > > Does anyone else find it significant that they were, perhaps > > pointedly, left of Fantastic Beasts? > > They do not belong there. According to the introduction, there are > three classifications: Beast, Being and Spirits. The ghosts, vampires > and other undead belong to that group. Maybe some day, JKR will publish > the book "Fantastical Spirits and how to exorcise them". > Ah but Werewolves do Someone else pointed out that they are probably classified as Beings, or Part Humans- and that sounds good to me. But What might we deduce from vampires not being considered beast? One of the "Classic" vampire tricks is to be able to turn into a Bat, a cloud of mist, or a Wolf. Since these are beasts, and are not mentioned, maybe the Potter-verse vampire does not have the ability to assume animal form. As for Immortality- that is precisely the reason I have been looing into this- Vampirisim, while certainly not perfect, is a step on the road to immortality. If all the obvious drawbacks could be overcome and compensated for, I could see Voldemort finding the prospect of immortatily as a vampire quite attractive. Ellen The Pottering Beekeeper From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 6 10:57:55 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 10:57:55 -0000 Subject: Lupin/Lockhart question In-Reply-To: <30.30277cdd.2af9b57e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46158 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Freiol at a... wrote: > Hello Everyone, > > I'm sure that this question already been asked and probably answered already > but one of my friends brought up the following converstion and I don't > remember what was said to a similar question. If anyone can respond, I'd > totally appreciate it. > > "In chapter 10 (p161) the last paragraph Lockhart talking to the class about > how he dealt with a werewolf. Continue on to 162 and you see "he" performed > the complex Homorphus Charm that turned him back into a man that apparently > would no longer turn into a werewolf. so how come this charm has never been > performed on Lupin? It > would make his life a whole lot easier if he would stay human all the time. > Lupin wouldn't have to take that potion anymore." > > > Sian Me: Could it be that Lockhart was lying ( what NOT Lockhart ;-)). Anyway Lockhart admitted stealing his 'achievements' from loads of other poeple, it is possible that (highly likely judging by how much of a coward he was at the end of COS) he was not present when the Homorphus charm was performed. So basically he would have heard of this second hand from the person who supposedly performed this charm so this person could have been exagerating. Now add this to the fact that Lockhart probably exagerated the accounts he collected himself - this means that we could have an hugely exagerated account of this charm and what it does. Michelle From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Nov 6 13:04:56 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 13:04:56 -0000 Subject: Harry's no killer/Mundungus Fletcher/Aberforth? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46159 Phyllis: > Harry will kill Voldemort in Book 7. No doubt in my mind. > > ~Phyllis I doubt he'll KILL him- but that he'll defeat him... About Mundungus Fletcher-- the Weasleys know him. That's why both Arthur and Percy have mentioned *him* for doing these things - Arthur's known him for a long time. We'll definately know more of him - I think he's about Mr and Mrs Weasley's age. I do hope to hear more of Aberforth Dumbledore - considering that his own brother is not sure whether he can read... I think Aberforth has an attitude saying that reading is bad for eyes - and that Aberforth was the one who used to give Albus socks for Christmas but that since his brother became teacher/headmaster he gave him books instead. (And that Albus misses the socks because that would mean his brother still cares for him and his eyes...) -- Finwitch From cindysphinx at comcast.net Wed Nov 6 14:22:43 2002 From: cindysphinx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 14:22:43 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Who Will Die, Who Shouldn't Die, And Who Oughtta Die Polls Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46160 Dear listmembers, In JKR's recent BBC Newsround interview, she again invited speculation about which characters will not survive the final pages of OoP. She said, "And there's a bad death in it, which I haven't enjoyed writing." In past interviews, JKR has said that OoP contains a death "that's going to be horrible to write" and she has warned that Harry will learn "exactly what death means, in even closer ways." The Moderator Team has set up four polls asking list members to predict which character is the OoP death that is "horrible to write," which other characters might die in OoP, which characters list members hope will not die, and which characters list members would kill off if they had half the chance. All of these polls will remain open until the release of OoP; you may change your votes as often as you like. All voting will be anonymous except for the poll asking which death will be horrible to write -- those who choose correctly may gloat when OoP proves them right and may say "I told you so!" as often as is appropriate. Happy voting! Cindy, for the Mods From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Wed Nov 6 14:23:30 2002 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 6 Nov 2002 14:23:30 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1036592610.371.52177.w48@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46161 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: Which character will be the OoP death JKR has said will "be horrible" to write (vote for only one)? o Alastor Moody o Albus Dumbledore o Arabella Figg o Arthur Weasley o Bill Weasley o Charlie Weasley o Cornelius Fudge o Creevy Brothers (one or both) o Dobby o Draco Malfoy o Fred/George Weasley (one or both) o Ginny Weasley o Harry Potter o Hermione Granger o Minerva McGonagall o Molly Weasley o Mundungus Fletcher o Neville Longbottom o Percy Weasley o Peter Pettigrew o Remus Lupin o Ron Weasley o Rubeus Hagrid o Severus Snape o Sirius Black To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=998934 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Wed Nov 6 14:24:27 2002 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 6 Nov 2002 14:24:27 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1036592667.202.56968.w19@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46162 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: Vote for each character you believe will die in OoP (vote for one or more than one). o Alastor Moody o Albus Dumbledore o Arthur Weasley o Bill Weasley o Charlie Weasley o Cornelius Fudge o Creevy Brothers (one or both) o Draco Malfoy o Fred/George Weasley (one or both) o Ginny Weasley o Harry Potter o Hermione Granger o Igor Karkaroff o Lucius Malfoy o Ludo Bagman o Minerva McGonagall o Molly Weasley o Neville Longbottom o Percy Weasley o Peter Pettigrew o Remus Lupin o Ron Weasley o Rubeus Hagrid o Severus Snape o Sirius Black To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=998937 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Wed Nov 6 14:25:03 2002 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 6 Nov 2002 14:25:03 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1036592703.149.35817.w9@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46163 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: If you, rather than JKR, were to decide which popular character would die in OoP, which one character would you choose to die (vote for one only)? o Alastor Moody o Albus Dumbledore o Arthur Weasley o Bill Weasley o Charlie Weasley o Draco Malfoy o Fred/George Weasley (one or both) o Ginny Weasley o Harry Potter o Hermione Granger o Minerva McGonagall o Molly Weasley o Neville Longbottom o Percy Weasley o Remus Lupin o Ron Weasley o Rubeus Hagrid o Severus Snape o Sirius Black To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=998938 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Wed Nov 6 14:25:12 2002 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 6 Nov 2002 14:25:12 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1036592712.127.46051.w63@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46164 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: If you could prevail upon JKR to spare one of these characters, which character would you urge her *not* to kill in OoP? (vote for only one)? o Alastor Moody o Albus Dumbledore o Arthur Weasley o Bill Weasley o Charlie Weasley o Cornelius Fudge o Dobby o Draco Malfoy o Fred/George Weasley o Ginny Weasley o Harry Potter o Hermione Granger o Minerva McGonagall o Molly Weasley o Neville Longbottom o Percy Weasley o Remus Lupin o Ron Weasley o Rubeus Hagrid o Severus Snape o Sirius Black o Winky o Other To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=998939 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From revanto at yahoo.com Wed Nov 6 15:46:57 2002 From: revanto at yahoo.com (revanto) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 15:46:57 -0000 Subject: Harry's no killer/Mundungus Fletcher/Aberforth? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46165 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "finwitch" wrote: > > > Phyllis: > > > Harry will kill Voldemort in Book 7. No doubt in my mind. > > > > ~Phyllis > > I doubt he'll KILL him- but that he'll defeat him... > > About Mundungus Fletcher-- the Weasleys know him. That's why both > Arthur and Percy have mentioned *him* for doing these things - > Arthur's known him for a long time. We'll definately know more of > him - I think he's about Mr and Mrs Weasley's age. We'll DEFINITELY find out more about he as he's part of the "regular bunch" Dumbledore mentioned at the end of GoF, as well as Mrs. Figg. It'll be nice to know how she got to be where she is now. Also, since Sirius, Mundungus and all that seemed like a gang there's a possibility they might be around the same age. As for the death, I think that it might be either Lupin or Sirius that dies. Hagrid's too mainstream to kill (yet!). It would be really sad if Cho Chang died. Revanto - On his T-shirt: "I was hog-tied at Hogwarts!" - PS: I only mentioned the death cos I'm new and wanted to make a guess without using a poll. From cindysphinx at comcast.net Wed Nov 6 16:14:35 2002 From: cindysphinx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 16:14:35 -0000 Subject: The Bull's Eye on Hermione's Back (WAS Doomed, they're doomed! [) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46166 I'm coming to this thread way late; I hope you all don't mind. ************* Pip handicapped (about the potential demise of Hermione in OoP): > Hermoine: Would be a bit suicidal, since she's JKR's alter-ego. > However, her tendency to forget she's a witch under stress may >lead her into serious problems. And JKR keeps getting noticeably >upset that no-one ever asks `Please don't kill Hermione.' > Book 5: 1000 to 1. By Book 7: 20 to 1. > Becomes full time political campaigner for rights of oppressed > species on graduation: 3 to 1. That's it? 1000 to 1? That's the best ya got? Well, I'm going on record to say that Hermione is without question the death that JKR is finding Ever So Horrible to write. Speaking the unvarnished truth is an ugly job, but someone has to do it. ;-) Here's the sad tale of woe that points to Hermione as dying a miserable and premature death in OoP, all IMHO, of course. First up, JKR is really beating the "horrible to write" drum, isn't she? At one point she might have even said writing this death would "crucify" her. She says she's not enjoying it at all. So whoever bites the bullet in OoP has to be *Big!* But JKR gave us some other clues, didn't she? She first mentioned this bit about "horrible to write" quite a long time ago. She has to be aware that lots of folks are betting on Dumbledore or Hagrid. She knows what that Hagrid actor said about his contract. Yet there she was just this week, telling some reporter again how oh-so- horrible the death would be: *********** Liso: And what kind of book is it, is it dark, is it light, is it sort of, y'know, bits of both, cos it's really getting darker, could you tell us something about the tone? JKR: It is dark. And there's a bad death in it, which I haven't enjoyed writing. But I'm really pleased with it so far. Just got to tweak it a tiny bit more and then you can - well, the publisher's will have it. ************** Look at that! JKR *volunteered* that whole bit about the bad death. She didn't have to say that, now did she? It's like she couldn't wait to repeat the bit about the horrible death. Oh, JKR is sitting in her mansion, laughing her head off that no one has come close to figuring out what she has in mind. If we've all guessed it correctly in Dumbledore or Hagrid, I'd expect JKR to back off a bit or stay mum about the death. So that means to me that the Hagrid/Dumbledore consensus is way off. There's also the fact that JKR doesn't do the obvious. Apparently, the smart money was not on Cedric before GoF was released. People were worried for the twins. That tendency to do the unexpected also suggests Hagrid isn't the one who will die. And as Pip noted, JKR seems a little irked that no one begs her to spare Hermione. I mean, if I were JKR and I had established the lynchpin of Book 5 as the death of Hermione, I'd be a little worried that no one seemed the least bit bothered by that potential outcome? Oh, JKR is sweating now, rightfully worried that Hermione's death might not be met with the outpouring of grief JKR needs to make OoP work. So she keeps hinting at the horrible death during interviews -- even when no one asks her about it. As far as the death being difficult to write, I'm not surprised. Hermione's death would be quite difficult to write well. I'm not sure how one would even go about it. Would you order up a long slow death with lots of wheezing? Would she die heroically? Would she be ambushed, so to speak? Would she be kidnapped first and die in the rescue attempt? Would she be reduced to a pile of smoking ash? Would she die of her own ineptitude? That, coupled with Pip's observation that writing Hermione's death might be akin to suicide for JKR, swings the spotlight firmly in Hermione's direction. As for the actual means of Hermione's death, the possibilities are as legion as Hermione's character flaws and weaknesses. She freezes under pressure. She couldn't take on the boggart. She was no match for that troll. She hasn't been shown to duel. She hasn't been shown to fly. She wasn't much help when Harry was kicking in the door to rescue Ron in the Shack. She couldn't throw off Imperius. The only DADA-type skill she has mastered is "Expelliarmus," IIRC. Oh, Hermione is quite competent at things that require thought, research, contemplation, memorization, planning and attention to detail. Shooting from the hip, though, is not her strong suit. Not at all. But there are some good reasons why Hermione's number could be up. Hermione's death would galvanize the main characters like nothing else. Despite the fact that Harry knows Voldemort killed his parents, Harry is far from feeling that he has a tangible motive to lead the charge against Voldemort. I mean, you'd think Harry would think of nothing else but avenging his parents. But no. He's more interested in child's play, for the most part, and he usually takes on Voldemort directly when he absolutely has to and when there is minimal risk. Indeed, over four books, Harry hasn't gone after Voldemort all that agressively unless something else was on the line. In PS/SS, Harry did go after the stone and he did it to prevent Voldemort's return, but Voldemort was still just a fume and Harry had help in Hermione and Ron. In CoS, Harry knowingly went to the Chamber to face Voldemort, but his immediate motive was to save Ginny. In PoA, Harry believed Black killed his parents, he was publicly goaded by Malfoy to try to find Black and avenge his parents, yet Harry stayed put -- Harry's confrontation with Black was a by-product of the effort to rescue Ron. And in GoF, Harry was deposited at Voldemort's feet. Indeed, at the end of GoF, Harry seems more shell- shocked than girded for the coming fight. Should Hermione be killed by Voldemort or a DE, Harry might well finally find the motivation he needs to pursue Voldemort to the ends of the earth. You want another hint that Hermione will soon be pushing up devil's snare? You know that whole bit where the Oprah kid said that muggles will get into the wizarding world? Yup. Hermione dies, and her parents "get into" the wizarding world for their daughter's funeral. Or to have tea with her ghost, perhaps. ;-) For all of those reasons, I'm completely convinced that Hermione can't buy life insurance anywhere at any price. Unless I change my mind again. ;-) Cindy -- way too polite to point out that Hermione's death just might somehow sink the R/H and H/H ships From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 6 16:22:12 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 16:22:12 -0000 Subject: Willingly Given Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46167 Ok I'm going to bring up Voldemorts rebirthing potion again all this talk of who's going to die make me think about this . A while ago there was discussion about how Harry's blood was the weak link in the potion due to his mothers sacrifice and things along a similar line. Though I`m pretty sure that it wasn't bought up (sorry if it was) that Wormtail's flesh was/ could be the weak link in the potion. Right: `Flesh of servant willingly given' First of all lets get the dictionary definitions out of the way: willing adj. 1. Disposed or inclined; prepared: I am willing to overlook your mistakes. 2. Acting or ready to act gladly; eagerly compliant: 3. Done, given, accepted, or borne voluntarily or ungrudgingly. Of or relating to exercise of the will; volitional. willingly adv. In a willing manner; with free will; without reluctance; cheerfully. Ok now what I'm about to suggest is that Wormtail didn't give his flesh willingly because he felt he had no choice. He did not act `gladly' as in point 2 of the definition of Willing, and I believe he did believe that he could exercise free will he felt he had no choice therefore it was not done ungrudgingly of voluntarily as in point 3 of the definition of willing. I definitely don't believe that he did it in a willing manner, with free will and without reluctance as in the above definition of willingly. Now why does he believe he has no choice in the matter? This is because: He feels he can't leave Voldemort because: * He didn't go to find Voldemort through choice even Voldemort admits that Peter felt he had no choice in this matter. * He can't leave Voldemort because a) if the friends he betrayed get him he's looking at Azkaban at the best. b) Voldemorts supporters themselves want to get him. * He is scared of Voldemort himself even if he is in a weakened state. In the graveyard whilst doing the potion it is not willing because: * He has to hurt/trap a person who saved his live and not only this, when the potion is finished and if it works Voldemort wants to kill this person. * If he doesn't add his bit to the potion he knows that not only will he have to face Voldemort but he's also got to face polyjuice!moody if it doesn't work out not to mention Voldemorts other supporters. * He doesn't believe he's got anywhere else to go. So he cuts of his hand because he feels he hasn't got a choice in the matter, if he wants to survive/ remain free he has no choice in the matter. If you feel you've got no choice how can you act of your own free will or voluntarily because really you've just been bullied/ forced into doing it. So maybe this could lead to Voldemorts downfall? Michelle From revanto at yahoo.com Wed Nov 6 16:07:03 2002 From: revanto at yahoo.com (revanto) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 16:07:03 -0000 Subject: Reports of Dumbledore's and Hagrid's Deaths Are Greatly Exaggerated (IMHO) In-Reply-To: <19526833060.20021105135834@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46168 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > Lizbot wrote: > > > My only reason for thinking Dumbledore wouldn't die in Book Five is > > the question of who would be headmaster/mistress after him? > > There's no question in my mind... The next Headmaster of Hogwarts will > Lucius Malfoy(!) No Way! Lucius is already losing credibility with each book. And not from Dumbledore dying... I think Fudge is not stupid enough to put Lucius in charge of the school anyway. I don't think he is totally blind. Anyway, the real evil behind everything is Doris Crockford. She is the Emperor to Voldemort's Vader. :P Revanto "I got a snitch you can't scratch" From amberhillcrest at yahoo.com Wed Nov 6 16:18:11 2002 From: amberhillcrest at yahoo.com (amberhillcrest) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 16:18:11 -0000 Subject: Harry's no killer/Mundungus Fletcher/Aberforth? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46169 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "revanto" wrote: > As for the death, I think that it might be either Lupin or Sirius > that dies. Hagrid's too mainstream to kill (yet!). It would be really > sad if Cho Chang died. > > Revanto > - On his T-shirt: "I was hog-tied at Hogwarts!" - > > PS: I only mentioned the death cos I'm new and wanted to make a guess > without using a poll. I'm new too! I don't think that anyone has mentioned the possibility of Cho Chang dying. I voted that Creevy brothers would die (in the poll) but now I am beginning to wonder if Cho Chang is the person who dies. I agree with you-- it would be sad if she died. --Amber From Dionysos at Dionysia.org Wed Nov 6 16:58:04 2002 From: Dionysos at Dionysia.org (Dan Delaney) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 11:58:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Bull's Eye on Hermione's Back In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46170 On Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 11:14 AM, Cindy C. wrote: > Well, I'm going on record to say that Hermione is without question > the death that JKR is finding Ever So Horrible to write. Hmmmm. Intriguing ideas. But you're missing one of the clues that JKR has put out there. How would Hermione's death be the "end of an era"? > Should Hermione be killed > by Voldemort or a DE, Harry might well finally find the motivation > he needs to pursue Voldemort to the ends of the earth. I certainly agree with that. And that would definitely add some spice to the rest of the books and put Harry into a more outgoing role. But I don't think harry is very outgoing. He has an introverted personality. He's certainly not afraid to speak his opinion or to defend himself. But being on the offensive and going after someone isn't the way he is. > you'd think Harry would think of nothing else but avenging his parents. > But no. He's more interested in child's play That's because: 1) He didn't know his parents, 2) he's lead a very sheltered, oppressed life, and 3) he's only 14! How many 14 year olds do you know who would go seeking out the killer of their parents to kill them? Cheers --Dan From talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 6 18:19:39 2002 From: talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com (Darla) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 18:19:39 -0000 Subject: Prefect system Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46171 Hello! Have just been looking over the poll questions etc, and something struck me as odd. One of the questions was 'which boy do you think will be made prefect?' and i just realised it doesn't make sense. I mean, only one boy and one girl can be made head boy/girl, but the system i've always known is that quite a few people can be made prefects in the same house etc, they just need to have a good reputation. (remember mrs weasley telling the twins she'd noticed that neither of them had been made prefects?) But a lot of people talk about prefects as if only one boy/girl can be a prefect from each house. help? Darla. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Nov 6 20:01:12 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 20:01:12 -0000 Subject: Enabling the Slyths/ MW vs WW Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46172 Pipsqueak quoted in message 46025 Pippin about the `Dissing the Slytherins Leaving Feast' scene, Chapter 17 PS/SS: > Um, are you saying that if some other House had been leading, > Dumbledore would have curbed his taste for the dramatic? > Because otherwise, I don't see how Dumbledore was being > exclusionist. To be inclusive, Dumbledore has to treat the > Slytherins as if they were just as capable of bearing the > reversals of fortune as anyone else. Pip!Squeak: >>Actually, yes, I do think Dumbledore would have curbed his taste for the dramatic if another house had been in the lead. Impossible to prove, of course ? though he curbs himself quite nicely when judging in the Triwizard Tournament. The events the Trio and Neville are awarded points for actually took place about a week before the leaving feast. Other examples of points being given or, in the case of Snape, extensively taken away show that points are awarded as close as possible to the event. Dumbledore could have awarded the points in advance of the Leaving Feast ? then made much the same speech, giving the reasons behind the points' award.<< We never see points awarded or taken away from a student in the Hospital Wing. I can't think Madame Pomfrey would like it. Too much excitement, for one thing, plus the danger of injured students being afraid to seek treatment for fear of punishment. Dumbledore might have been constrained by the rules of the contest, or Madame P's wrath. But suppose you are right, and he just waits so that he can trick the Slytherins into thinking that they'd won. It's glaringly obvious to everyone else that the Slytherins don't *deserve* to win--so why does the trick work? Why don't the Slytherins themselves offer to give up the Cup? That would seem to be what is expected of a proper Wizard. The Slytherins like nothing better than jeering at Harry, who's famous for having done nothing more than survive. Ravenclaw, which was playing against a team with no Seeker and could have won all the points it liked in the Quidditch final, is still in second place going into the Feast. They choose an honorable second rather than a questionable first. Then there's Harry and Cedric's Alphonse and Gaston routine with the Tri-wizard Cup -- all of it shows that by the standards of the wizarding world, a victory won by default deserves no praise, and everybody knows it. Yet the Slytherins, who claim to know the ways of their world better than anybody else, just don't get it, clapping and cheering for themselves (and banging a mug on the table) even though Dumbledore's announcement of the point standings is met by silence from the other Houses. In Britain, where a snub can be wielded like a rapier, this is a blow with a blunt axe. But the Slytherins don't notice that they're being dissed until Dumbledore rubs their noses in it. What blinds them cannot be ambition. They would get far more glory and respect for their House by ceding the Cup than they could ever win by claiming it. That may be a bit sophisticated for eleven year old Draco to grasp, but the older Slytherins should be able to understand this. Krum would. Or Lucius, certainly. I think it's something else, something that reveals the peculiar nature of Slytherin House. It is not ambition which is the ruin of Slytherin, nor the desire for power in itself, nor is it some unique susceptibility to evil. What Slytherins are susceptible to, I think, is *addiction.* The Sorting Hat holds the key: power*hungry* Slytherin, Harry's "nice thirst" to prove himself, Harry, released to Gryffindor because he said no. It seems that what Slytherin was looking for in his pupils, besides cunning and resourcefulness and that certain disregard for rules, was an addictive personality. This, then, explains the self-destructive behavior. The Slytherin leadership, having won the House Cup seven years in a row, are now addicted to winning. It doesn't occur to them that under the circumstances winning would not be a good idea. They are as foolish as Hagrid, drinking with strangers though he knows he has a secret to protect, or Harry, coming again and again to the Mirror. The Slytherins are more likely to succumb to Dark Magic, not because they are more apt to evil but because it has an addictive quality "when a wizard goes over ter the Dark Side, there's nothin' and no one that matters to 'em anymore." It will do no good for Dumbledore to have one of his famous little talks with the Slytherins and explain all this, even if he understands it. You can't argue someone out of an addiction. What you can do is refuse to shield them from the consequences of their destructive behavior. Dumbledore is not about to become an enabler. No doubt some of the Slytherins felt put upon, and blamed Dumbledore for shaming them in public, even though they had already shamed themselves far more badly. That is one of the perils of leadership. I am sure, to relate this to the New Testament thread, that some of the people who got told that they were no better than the adulteress did not take it well, and wished that they could do something about That Troublemaker. ******** I am not sure that Jesus would have advised the wizards to reveal themselves for the sake of stimulating anybody's sense of wonder He was very scathing about people who needed signs and wonders in order to believe. As for good works, they were to be done in strictest secrecy. Personally, I really wouldn't want the wizarding world to reveal itself to us Muggles. Magical technology (wands) doesn't work for us, and Muggle technology doesn't work around them--why should I trade my laptop for a magic wand that I can't use? Pippin From jdumas at kingwoodcable.com Wed Nov 6 20:08:27 2002 From: jdumas at kingwoodcable.com (Katze) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 14:08:27 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Reports of Dumbledore's and Hagrid's Deaths Are Greatly Exaggerated (IMHO) References: Message-ID: <3DC976BB.9040307@kingwoodcable.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46173 revanto wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > >>Lizbot wrote: >> >> >>>My only reason for thinking Dumbledore wouldn't die in Book Five >> > is > >>>the question of who would be headmaster/mistress after him? I have to disagree. Minerva McGonagall would become the new Headmistress. She is already labeled "Deputy Headmistress" in the books. I think she was in charge in COS when Dumbledore was taken out of the school. Katze From amberhillcrest at yahoo.com Wed Nov 6 19:47:22 2002 From: amberhillcrest at yahoo.com (amberhillcrest) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 19:47:22 -0000 Subject: Prefect system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46174 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Darla" wrote: > Hello! > Have just been looking over the poll questions etc, and something > struck me as odd. One of the questions was 'which boy do you think > will be made prefect?' and i just realised it doesn't make sense. I > mean, only one boy and one girl can be made head boy/girl, but the > system i've always known is that quite a few people can be made > prefects in the same house etc, they just need to have a good > reputation. (remember mrs weasley telling the twins she'd noticed > that neither of them had been made prefects?) But a lot of people > talk about prefects as if only one boy/girl can be a prefect from > each house. help? > Darla. I actually went to boarding school, but the prefect system was different. I don't have much textual substantiation, but here's what I think. When Harry first meets the Weasleys, Percy is in his fifth year which seems to be the year that people are first elligible to be selected as prefects. Since Mrs. Weasley scolds her sons for not being selected as prefects, that might imply that there are mutiple prefects selected from each house each year. The selection seems to be made in the fifth year and once you become a prefect, you stay a prefect-- unless of course you are elected Head Boy. So, if selections are made in the fifth year, that means that there could be as many as 24 prefects in the school at any given time (6 per house (2 5th year, 2 6th year and 2 th year). This would include the Head Boy and Head Girl. This would certainly explain the need for a prefects' bathroom in GoF but it seems like a large number for needing two compartments on the Hogwarts Express (SS). --Maureen From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 6 20:00:37 2002 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 20:00:37 -0000 Subject: The Bull's Eye on Hermione's Back (WAS Doomed, they're doomed! [) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46175 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > But there are some good reasons why Hermione's number could be up. Such as... Voldy and the Death Eaters aren't too fond of Muggle-born witches. What better example to set for the kids at Hogwarts than to take out one (if not THE) top student at the school as an example? I'm sure a light Imperious curse on Draco by dear-old-Dad would take care of it. In Book 6, Dobby leads a house-elf raid on the Malfoy Mansion in revenge for the leader of S.P.E.W. and takes out Lucifer - er, Lucius. Hermione returns as a ghost (and we'll figure out why some people become ghosts) and continues to take classes. After graduation, she becomes a teacher at the school. Give her a ghostly time-turner and she could teach ALL of the subjects. Harry ends up with Ginny, Ron ends up with Fleur, Krum becomes headmaster of Durmstrang, and Hagrid turns his magical zoo of creatures loose on Azkaban to replace the Dementors... --aja From smiller_92407 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 6 20:18:56 2002 From: smiller_92407 at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 20:18:56 -0000 Subject: The Bull's Eye on Hermione's Back (WAS Doomed, they're doomed! [) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46176 Cindy C. wrote "She hasn't been shown to fly." Me: Um, don't I remember that she (and Ron, along with Harry) mounted brooms in the flying key sequence of Book 1? I remember being impressed when I read it because there had been no discussion of how she learned. ~Constance Vigilance From msbonsai at mninter.net Wed Nov 6 20:44:20 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 20:44:20 -0000 Subject: Hermione learned with the rest of them how to fly her broom! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46177 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Miller" wrote: > Cindy C. wrote > > > > "She hasn't been shown to fly." > > Me: > > Um, don't I remember that she (and Ron, along with Harry) mounted > brooms in the flying key sequence of Book 1? I remember being > impressed when I read it because there had been no discussion of how > she learned. > > ~Constance Vigilance Now me: Ok, remember Madam Hooch? PS/SS p 146: *snip* "Well, what are you all waiting for?" she barked. "Everyone stand by a broomstick. Come on, hurry up." Harry glanced down at his broom. It was old and some of the twigs stuck out at odd angles. "Stick out your right hand over your broom," called Madam Hooch at the front, "and say 'UP!'" "UP!" everyone shouted. Harry's broom jumped into his hand at once, but it was one of the few that did. Hermione Granger's had simply rolled over on the ground, and Neville's hadn't moved at all. *snip* This would be my case in point. All students at Hogwarts learn to fly brooms. I'm sure this wasn't the only lesson, in fact, I believe they mention her class again! So, yes, Hogwarts did in fact teach Hermione how to fly before that fabulous flying with the keys scene. Julie From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 6 20:54:49 2002 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:54:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hermione learned with the rest of them how to fly her broom! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021106205449.36552.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46178 --- Julie wrote: *snip Madam Hooch's class* > This would be my case in point. All students at Hogwarts learn to > fly brooms. I'm sure this wasn't the only lesson, in fact, I believe > they mention her class again! So, yes, Hogwarts did in fact teach > Hermione how to fly before that fabulous flying with the keys scene. Precisely. While I personally don't recall mention of another flying lesson in the books, I don't think there's any reason to assume that they DIDN'T occur just because Harry turned out to be a natural and not need them. I would draw on two examples from my own school career in illustration. In college, everyone was required to have one credit in swimming to graduate. They held a swimming test at the beginning of the year, and anyone who demonstrated sufficient skill was granted the credit while those not able to swim could take a class instead. Hogwarts flying classes may have been based on this, with the student able to leave the class whenever they can demonstrate sufficient flying ability to Madam Hooch. Clearly, Harry did so. An alternative example comes from when I was in junior high, where everyone was required to take a phys. ed. course. Most people, myself included, were in standard PE, but if you made it onto a sports team, that counted instead. While generally this wouldn't be an option for first years, since they aren't allowed on House teams, an exception could be made for Harry on the basis that he's certainly getting enough flying practice! So I don't see any reason to think that one brief lesson is the only instruction these kids are given in flying. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From mi_shell16 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 6 21:00:52 2002 From: mi_shell16 at hotmail.com (theresnothingtoit) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 21:00:52 -0000 Subject: The Bull's Eye on Hermione's Back (WAS Doomed, they're doomed! [) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46179 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > Should Hermione be killed > by Voldemort or a DE, Harry might well finally find the motivation > he needs to pursue Voldemort to the ends of the earth. Case 1 Not Harry but Ron. Oh and she doesn't die, it just looks that way. First of all dear Malfoy junior slips her a little of that tonic that Snape talked about in his very first speach to Harry, draught of the living death or something like that. Ron discovers her and does something increadably brave and also incredibly stupid at the same time and ends up a large bloody mess. But alive. Then we can have a nice soppy scene where Ron dies in Hermione's arms. *sniff* Case 2 Our dear Ron Weasly is placed under the Imperious Curse and made to kill his one love, Hermione. Now if that doesn't bang I don't know what will. We can also have some nice father son paralleling with Arthur Weasly who might just possibly perhaps have killed son David under similar circumstances. Oh dear it is not looking good for Hermione is it. And I thought she was safe. Perhaps another three Potterverse years will even out the odds a little. Theresnothingtoit From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Nov 6 21:11:11 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 21:11:11 -0000 Subject: Vampires in th Hp Universe/ Immortality and Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46180 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ellen & John Anglin" wrote: > As for Immortality- that is precisely the reason I have been looing into this- Vampirisim, while certainly not perfect, is a step on the road to immortality. If all the obvious drawbacks could be overcome and compensated for, I could see Voldemort finding the prospect of immortatily as a vampire quite attractive. > Ah, but vampires are classified as *non-wizard*...if that means that people who become vampires lose their magic, Voldemort may not be able to compensate for that. It would also go a long way to explain the great fear of vampires among the wizard folk. Would creatures which have no non-magical phase, such as Centaurs, die from the bite rather than becoming immortal? Pippin From crussell at arkansas.net Wed Nov 6 21:32:23 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 21:32:23 -0000 Subject: The Bull's Eye on Hermione's Back (WAS Doomed, they're doomed! [) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46181 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > > Oh, Hermione is quite competent at things that require thought, > research, contemplation, memorization, planning and attention to > detail. Shooting from the hip, though, is not her strong suit. Not at all. > And those skills have proven quite handy to Harry: 1)PS/SS- solved the logic puzzle concerning potions which allowed Harry to reach the Stone; 2) provided Harry with clues necessary to solve the mystery of the basilisk before she was petrified; 3) had access to and knew how to use the time-turner which allowed Sirius and Buckbeak to be rescued; and 4) help Harry solve various segments of the Triwizard Tournament. As for shooting from the hip, she nearly took Draco's head off in PoA and probably would have if she had not been stopped by Ron and Harry-as it is she did get a good slap in. Later, in PoA, in the shrieking shack, she provided a good swift kick which allowed Harry to break free of Sirius. IMO, Hermione acts as a buffer for the times when Harry and Ron are being thoughtless-providing calm cool and logical assistance when needed. IMO, her unwaivering loyalty to and support of Harry are things he will need to rely on in the coming books-5, 6, and 7. bugaloo37-who thinks Hermione is one of Harry's most valuable assets From m.bockermann at t-online.de Wed Nov 6 21:21:32 2002 From: m.bockermann at t-online.de (m.bockermann at t-online.de) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 22:21:32 +0100 Subject: Book Titles: How they relate to Voldemort and Harry References: <1036539873.5241.58753.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <00cb01c285db$bdf24b20$fe7e9e3e@computer> No: HPFGUIDX 46182 Hi everybody! bugaloo37 wrote: >>>Now on to book 5: is the order of the phoenix something else Voldemort wants/needs to reinforce his power? How will Harry stop him this time? Interesting question. Most of us have always assumed that the Order of the Phoenix would be some group of people fighting *against* Voldemort. But one way or the other, Voldemort has as strong a connection with a Phoenix than Harry - through his wand. Maybe Voldemort is the Phoenix and his followers, the Neo-Deatheaters, the Order of the Phoenix. Deatheaters might be a slandering name for Voldemorts followers used by Voldemorts enemies. After all, a Phoenix is a bird that rises from the ashes and Voldemort did rise from death in GoF. Yes, a Phoenix is usually a good animal... but angels are also supposed to be good and mythology claims there is a fallen one. Greetings, Ethanol From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Nov 6 21:42:13 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 21:42:13 -0000 Subject: Axeman! (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46183 Axeman! (PoA, Chap. 16) To the tune of The Beatles' Taxman Dedicated to Maria Hear it at: http://www.wtv-zone.com/jade-11 THE SCENE: Behind HAGRID's cottage. Enter McNAIR in executioner's robes, as he prepares to carry out Buckbeak's death sentence. HAGRID and the TRIO express their consternation. MCNAIR Let me tell you How it will be That hippogriff Is History Cause I'm the axeman Yeah I'm the axeman Just ten percent Right off the top When Buckbeak meets my Fatal chop Cause I'm the axeman Yeah I'm the axeman Hagrid went too far And met defeat This vicious beastie I'll now delete HAGRID At the set of sun Malfoy's ally Will avenge his boy, Poor thing must die HAGRID & TRIO Axeman! Cause he's the axeman Yeah he's the axeman HARRY (and MCNAIR) Can't someone please ask Dumbledore (Uh, Uh, Mr. Potter) HAGRID (and MCNAIR) That Committee his voice ignores (Uh, huh, Mr. Malfoy) HAGRID & TRIO Cause he's the axeman Yeah he's the axeman McNAIR & (HAGRID & TRIO) All those who would the Malfoys strike (Axeman!) Will meet an end that They won't like (Axeman!) (Exit McNAIR, HAGRID, & Buckbeak, toward the chopping block) TRIO 'Cause he's the axeman. Yeah, he's the axeman, And he's showing no signs of mercy (The TRIO hears "the unmistakable swish and thud of an axe.") Axeman! - CMC (joyously singin' the original since the polls closed) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From amberhillcrest at yahoo.com Wed Nov 6 20:31:51 2002 From: amberhillcrest at yahoo.com (amberhillcrest) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 20:31:51 -0000 Subject: The Bull's Eye on Hermione's Back (WAS Doomed, they're doomed! [) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46184 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Miller" wrote: > Cindy C. wrote > > > > "She hasn't been shown to fly." > > Me (Susan): > > Um, don't I remember that she (and Ron, along with Harry) mounted > brooms in the flying key sequence of Book 1? I remember being > impressed when I read it because there had been no discussion of how > she learned. > > ~Constance Vigilance But where would she have learned to fly? In SS, the only flying lesson is the one in which Neville gets hurt and Harry is caught flying and made the new Seeker. After that, there are no more flying lessons. Please correct me if I am wrong, but that is the only flying lesson in the whole series (and it is interrupted, no less!) Ron knows how to fly because he plays pick-up games of Quidditch with his brothers, but Hermione does not appear interested in athletic pursuits. It seems rather incredulous that Hermione would instinctively know how to fly even if she was feeling a burst of adrenaline when she flies in SS. -Maureen Amber From Dionysos at Dionysia.org Wed Nov 6 20:34:36 2002 From: Dionysos at Dionysia.org (Dan Delaney) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 15:34:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Bull's Eye on Hermione's Back In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2A24CCD0-F1C7-11D6-9004-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> No: HPFGUIDX 46185 On Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 03:18 PM, Susan Miller wrote: > I remember being impressed when I read it because there had been > no discussion of how she learned. Sure there was. She learned to fly the same way all of the students learned to fly: IN MADAM HOOCH'S CLASS. Just because their first broom flying class was cut short doesn't mean they never had any more classes. Presumably, broom flying classes are a standard part of the curriculum for first years. Just because we don't see Hermione flying a broom during the books, there's no reason to assume that she didn't learn how to fly. We don't see most of the other students flying around either (pretty much only the Quidditch players), but they ALL learn how to fly brooms during their first year, as evidenced by the fact that they all take a broom flying class from Madam Hooch. --Dan From msbonsai at mninter.net Wed Nov 6 22:00:29 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 22:00:29 -0000 Subject: The Bull's Eye on Hermione's Back (WAS Doomed, they're doomed! [) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46186 bv--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "amberhillcrest" wrote: > But where would she have learned to fly? In SS, the only flying lesson is the one in which Neville gets hurt and Harry is caught flying and made the new Seeker. After that, there are no more flying lessons. Please correct me if I am wrong, but that is the only flying lesson in the whole series (and it is interrupted, no less!) Ron knows how to fly because he plays pick-up games of Quidditch with his brothers, but Hermione does not appear interested in athletic pursuits. It seems rather incredulous that Hermione would instinctively know how to fly even if she was feeling a burst of adrenaline when she flies in SS. > > -Maureen Amber Me again: I really believe they refer to this as a *class* not a simple lesson. In fact, p 145: *snip* At three-thirty that afternoon, Harry, Ron, and the other Gryffindors hurried down the front steps onto the grounds for their first flying lesson." *snip* And let's just go back shall we? *snip* - p143 Flying lessons would be starting on Thursday -- and Gryffindor and Slytherin would be learning together. *snip* Of course, this is the first week of school. I don't believe the go through every single class that they go to, only when something important happens during that class that they need to talk about. I would believe if they were flying around, this would be pretty hard to talk at the same time. I'm certain that Harry would still have to go to classes as well, as he would be learning technique. Just because you're a natural doesn't mean you know everything. You still have to learn all the composers in piano even if you're able to compose at age 3! Me, I'm more curious as to what exactly Prof. Hooch teaches besides the flying lessons. I'm sure she teaches much more . . . and I hope we get a glimpse of some of them as we get into books 5 6 & 7! Julie :o) p From cureluv88 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 6 22:19:16 2002 From: cureluv88 at hotmail.com (Liz) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 22:19:16 -0000 Subject: Lupin/Lockhart question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46187 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "mitchbailey82" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Freiol at a... wrote: > > Hello Everyone, > > > > I'm sure that this question already been asked and probably > answered already > > but one of my friends brought up the following converstion and I > don't > > remember what was said to a similar question. If anyone can > respond, I'd > > totally appreciate it. > > > > "In chapter 10 (p161) the last paragraph Lockhart talking to the > class about > > how he dealt with a werewolf. Continue on to 162 and you see "he" > performed > > the complex Homorphus Charm that turned him back into a man that > apparently > > would no longer turn into a werewolf. so how come this charm has > never been > > performed on Lupin? It > > would make his life a whole lot easier if he would stay human all > the time. > > Lupin wouldn't have to take that potion anymore." > > > > > > Sian > I asked this question on here myself, about six months ago. Several people told me that JKR said, in an interview when asked about this, that Lockhart was just lying. Thanks! Lizbot From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 6 22:26:39 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 22:26:39 -0000 Subject: Willingly Given In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46188 Michelle ("mitchbailey82") wrote: > I'm going to bring up Voldemorts rebirthing potion again all this > talk of who's going to die make me think about this . A while ago > there was discussion about how Harry's blood was the weak link in > the potion due to his mothers sacrifice and things along a similar > line. Though I`m pretty sure that it wasn't bought up (sorry if it > was) that Wormtail's flesh was/ could be the weak link in the > potion. Now me: I don't think Wormtail's flesh is the weak link in the potion because Dumbledore and Fake!Moody don't react when Harry tells them about Wormtail's sacrifice - it's the taking of Harry's blood that triggers Fake!Moody's "long, low hiss" and Dumbledore's "gleam of triumph." ~Phyllis From msbonsai at mninter.net Wed Nov 6 22:30:24 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 22:30:24 -0000 Subject: Willingly Given In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46189 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > I don't think Wormtail's flesh is the weak link in the potion because > Dumbledore and Fake!Moody don't react when Harry tells them about > Wormtail's sacrifice - it's the taking of Harry's blood that triggers > Fake!Moody's "long, low hiss" and Dumbledore's "gleam of triumph." > > ~Phyllis Just a minor correction here . . . that was Sirius in the office with Dumbledore . . . not Crouch!Moody. Julie From crussell at arkansas.net Wed Nov 6 22:35:21 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 22:35:21 -0000 Subject: Doomed, they're doomed! [Revised and expanded] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46190 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bluesqueak" wrote: > > Bill Weasley: Bill is cool. Bill is a Curse Breaker. See Bill break curses. Bill wants to fight Voldemort. Look, there is a Grim on Bill's shoulder. Why is it there? > Book 5: 20 to 1. By Book 7: Even money. > > Something else about Bill Weasley needs to be remembered-he works in Egypt ( remember the Weasleys went to visit him in PoA). What difference does that make -you might ask. Here is a recent discovery I made concerning the origin of the Phoenix myth. Yes-the word Phoenix is of Greek origin but guess what -the concept of the phoenix is-you guessed it Egyptian. As everyone knows the Egyptians were obsessed with immortality-a bird that can rise from the ashes-reborn- would be right up there alley What better place for Voldemort to head for than Eqypt in his quest for immortality-and if Bill just happens to be there already-look out!! bugaloo37 From cindysphinx at comcast.net Wed Nov 6 23:22:34 2002 From: cindysphinx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 23:22:34 -0000 Subject: The Bull's Eye on Hermione's Back In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46191 I wrote: > "She hasn't been shown to fly." Susan wrote: > Um, don't I remember that she (and Ron, along with Harry) mounted > brooms in the flying key sequence of Book 1? I remember being > impressed when I read it because there had been no discussion of >how she learned. And then several folks correctly pointed out that Hermione was in Madam Hooch's flying lessons, just like all the other Gryffindors. And this is where we get to see how inartful phrasing and poor writing cause chaos. See, I said "She hasn't been shown to fly." Which could logically be read to mean she hasn't been *taught* to fly. Actually, I meant "The readers haven't been shown in the books that Hermione can fly well or proficiently." And we haven't been shown that Hermione is good with a broom. We are told Ron plays pick-up Quiddich, and he takes a turn on the Firebolt. Hermione seems much less interested in flying and brooms, generally. So I wasn't *wrong* or anything. No, no, no. I was just kinda sloppy. ;-) Cindy -- who now expects everyone to promptly change their "Who will die?" votes to Hermione From eclipse02134 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 6 23:32:21 2002 From: eclipse02134 at yahoo.com (Eclipse) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 15:32:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Defending Mundungus' Death (WAS: Mundungus Will Bite the Bullet in Book 5) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021106233221.37765.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46192 All this talk about the "hard death" made me wonder whats the chance of Hermione's parents survivng the series. They wouldn't be able to protect themselves, like the Weasleys. However we haven't seen much of them. Eclipse __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From msbonsai at mninter.net Wed Nov 6 23:47:24 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 23:47:24 -0000 Subject: Defending Mundungus' Death (WAS: Mundungus Will Bite the Bullet in Book 5) In-Reply-To: <20021106233221.37765.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46193 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Eclipse wrote: > All this talk about the "hard death" made me wonder > whats the chance of Hermione's parents survivng the > series. They wouldn't be able to protect themselves, > like the Weasleys. However we haven't seen much of > them. > > Eclipse Me: You know I was thinking. That Oprah interview last week, the little boy who said he writes to JKR and suggests his theories and she says whether he's close or not . . . and he said he believes that the muggles will get into the WW, and she wrote back that he was scarily close. So . . . how about this for a senario: Hermione is killed. Her parents, dentists so obviously somewhat educated here ;o) decide that this death needs to be made clear to the MW. The muggles need to know of the dangers of Voldemort . . . it hits the news, muggles start finding their way in through knowing other parents of muggles, who maybe start pulling their kids out of Hogwarts over this whole ordeal? Julie From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Nov 7 00:14:22 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 00:14:22 -0000 Subject: Requiem for Weatherby (Re: The Bull's Eye on Hermione's Back ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46194 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: ********* > > Look at that! JKR *volunteered* that whole bit about the bad > death. She didn't have to say that, now did she? It's like she > couldn't wait to repeat the bit about the horrible death. Oh, JKR > is sitting in her mansion, laughing her head off that no one has > come close to figuring out what she has in mind. If we've all > guessed it correctly in Dumbledore or Hagrid, I'd expect JKR to back > off a bit or stay mum about the death. So that means to me that the > Hagrid/Dumbledore consensus is way off. Cindy, I wouldn't buy that Hermione theory if you paid me to, but your words have had a chilling effect on me. Why does JKR keep on bringing up this thing about the death being "bad" and "horrible to write" etc. etc. etc? It seems to me that you're right. That if the death was Hagrid or Dumbledore's, she wouldn't be flaunting it like that. She's going to do something that we aren't expecting, that most of aren't expecting. It is with a heavy heart that I'm going to change my vote from Hagrid to Percy. I've thought Percy was doomed for a long while now. To me, there is no character so obviously dead by Book VII. I won't go into why I think so. It's been discussed a million times on the list. Many of us feel it our bones. But for a long time, I've been persuading myself that Percy gets to live through OotP, that he'll die in Book VI or VII. But now I'm not so sure. Percy seems to me the perfect candidate for an unexpected death that will be horrible to write. Because JKR loves Percy, even if certain unappreciative child readers don't, because she loves the Weasleys, and it's going to be heartbreaking. Meanwhile, she can't stuff every death into the last book. I think Dumbledore and Lupin's numbers are up as well, but they have to stick around to Book VII. There's very few people who we can spare for OotP. But I thought Percy's OK. She can't spare Percy b/c she's going to keep the Ministry doing the appeasement thing all through OotP. She isn't going to give it up so quickly after setting it up so thoroughly at the end of GoF. Percy's been thematically linked with that subplot, and I suspect its resolution will involve his death. So, it should be fine for this book. But wouldn't it make sense for the appeasement situation to crumble at the end of the next book? Leaving Percy dead, dead, dead! Oh the pain! The agony! The weeping children: "I s-said I wished P-percy was d-dead b-because he was b-boring!" Fred and George going into deep depression and regretting their persecution of their brother. What you say? I sound like I'm enjoying the prospect? Look, I am a FEATHERBOA. Would you like a glass of brandy? Eileen P.S. On the other hand, Cindy, she could be planning to restore Frank Longbottom to sanity just long enough for him to die horribly in a bloody ambush involving the Lestranges, Avery, and ever-so-evil Mad-Eye Moody. Now, that'd be a death horrible to write. From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 00:21:39 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 16:21:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Bull's Eye on Hermione's Back (WAS Doomed, they're doomed! [) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021107002139.63390.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46195 bugaloo37 wrote: And those skills have proven quite handy to Harry: 1)PS/SS- solved the logic puzzle concerning potions which allowed Harry to reach the Stone; 2) provided Harry with clues necessary to solve the mystery of the basilisk before she was petrified; 3) had access to and knew how to use the time-turner which allowed Sirius and Buckbeak to be rescued; and 4) help Harry solve various segments of the Triwizard Tournament. As for shooting from the hip, she nearly took Draco's head off in PoA and probably would have if she had not been stopped by Ron and Harry-as it is she did get a good slap in. Later, in PoA, in the shrieking shack, she provided a good swift kick which allowed Harry to break free of Sirius. IMO, Hermione acts as a buffer for the times when Harry and Ron are being thoughtless-providing calm cool and logical assistance when needed. IMO, her unwaivering loyalty to and support of Harry are things he will need to rely on in the coming books-5, 6, and 7. Me: Right you are. Not only that, Hermione was already something of a victim, in CoS, when she was petrified. Ginny, too, who already did the almost-dead-girl-in-peril thing. So, since we already had someone crushing on Harry who was imperiled (Ginny), someone who was a fan (Colin, petrified also) and someone who was very close to Harry (Hermione), perhaps next it'll be someone HE is crushing on. Yep, I think the huge honking target is more likely to be on Cho Chang, as soon as someone Dark gets wind of Harry's wee obsession. Talk about adding to his guilt about Cedric if she bites it! So--as far as girls go, I think Cho is far more likely to cash in her chips than Hermione, as Hermione is needed for the good fight, IMO, as has been demonstrated countless times. However, when all is said and done, the most doomed person for my money is Hagrid. --Barb (Who hopes that Charlie is hired for Hagrid's replacement, but not until a suitable mourning period has passed...) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amberhillcrest at yahoo.com Wed Nov 6 21:59:13 2002 From: amberhillcrest at yahoo.com (amberhillcrest) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 21:59:13 -0000 Subject: The Bull's Eye on Hermione's Back In-Reply-To: <2A24CCD0-F1C7-11D6-9004-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46196 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dan Delaney wrote: > Sure there was. She (Hermoine) learned to fly the same way all of the students > learned to fly: IN MADAM HOOCH'S CLASS. Just because their first broom > flying class was cut short doesn't mean they never had any more > classes. Presumably, broom flying classes are a standard part of the > curriculum for first years. Just because we don't see Hermione flying a > broom during the books, there's no reason to assume that she didn't > learn how to fly. We don't see most of the other students flying around > either (pretty much only the Quidditch players), but they ALL learn how > to fly brooms during their first year, as evidenced by the fact that > they all take a broom flying class from Madam Hooch. > > --Dan Very true-- just because we don't read about something happening doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. But isn't it interesting that there is only one flying lesson in the entire book? I mean, there are some classes that appear more often in the books, but only one flying lesson (that gets interrupted). I agree with you that they could have happened and were just not described in the book--- Here is another question--Even if we assume that Hermione has been taught to fly, who is to say that she is any good at it? -Maureen Amber From Malady579 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 7 01:14:56 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 01:14:56 -0000 Subject: Bk 6 oMC and DaDA profs In-Reply-To: <20021107002139.63390.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46197 Barb wrote something that started me thinking: [which I do believe is a good thing ;) ] > --Barb >Who hopes that Charlie is hired for Hagrid's replacement, but not >until a suitable mourning period has passed... So with current polls, we have CoMC professor dead, and DaDA prof gone for whatever magical reason this time (score: bad, stupid, scary, *really* bad, so I guess we are back to stupid). So lets say, Dumbledore assigns Charlie CoMC job as Barb suggested. Good solid choice. Get added bonus of dragon defense on Hogwarts, which was alluded to in PoA. (Ch 22, Fudge: Perhaps we should think about dragons at the school entrance...) Hey, Dumbledore would even have two for the price of one, since Charlie could also be flying coach. How cool would it be to see him refereeing those quidditch games? Maybe he could stop all that cheating...but then again, what fun would that be? So to balance Charlie, I think Dumbledore should give the DaDA job to Bill. He has the curse-breaking thing down. Was head boy before, so really intelligent. Possible crush factor again, yet he is at least adult enough to not encourage those poor young girls. He is gentle like Lupin and good with children. If Fleur does come to Hogwarts, there is a possible hook-up there. Plug in Ron's and his shared interest in chess, and we have a real possibility. And...both brothers would be replacing the twins, who will leave the school after OoP, so the Weasley quotient will remain. Hmmm...I like it. Melody From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 7 01:14:40 2002 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Meggers S.) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 20:14:40 -0500 Subject: Everybody Dies! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46198 Ok, I have a beef with this board's doomsday theories and I must get it out. Does everyone REALLY think that All or MOst of our beloved characters will die? What kind of sucky ending would that be? Would JKR really devote all this time and take us through all 7 books to leave us with SUCH a depressing ending? I mean geez, I would really be bummed out about the whole series if most characters did not finally get some happiness in the ending. I am not saying I don't think there will be some sad death's, BUT I don't think there is gonna be some blood bath like a lot of the posts have projected lately. I mean let's get a handle on ourselves here! OK, I have said my peace. Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From saltwater at ev1.net Wed Nov 6 22:42:57 2002 From: saltwater at ev1.net (feumindra) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 22:42:57 -0000 Subject: My choice in the poll of who I think will die Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46199 Well, I didn't think my name would be shown, but as it is, I guess I will have to explain myself! lol Before I do though, I wanted to say that I am very intrigued by what pippin_999 had to say about the Slytherins...you put it together so much better than I could have! But I was having relatively similar thoughts. You said: What blinds them cannot be ambition. They would get far more glory and respect for their House by ceding the Cup than they could ever win by claiming it. That may be a bit sophisticated for eleven year old Draco to grasp, but the older Slytherins should be able to understand this. Krum would. Or Lucius, certainly. I think it's something else, something that reveals the peculiar nature of Slytherin House. It is not ambition which is the ruin of Slytherin, nor the desire for power in itself, nor is it some unique susceptibility to evil. What Slytherins are susceptible to, I think, is *addiction.* The Sorting Hat holds the key: power*hungry* Slytherin, Harry's "nice thirst" to prove himself, Harry, released to Gryffindor because he said no. It seems that what Slytherin was looking for in his pupils, besides cunning and resourcefulness and that certain disregard for rules, was an addictive personality EXACTLY! That is more on the money of what I had been picking up on Malfoy. JKR has let the reader believe that Malfoy is the 'given' leader of the Slytherins and he seems inordinately obsessed with what Harry does, an 'addiction' to being Potter's nemesis. This backs up my hypothesis that he is the 'special fan' that JKR mentioned as being the 'big death.' I knew a Malfoy-type person growing up...he was NOT pleasant and seemed to delight in making me as uncomfortable as he could...BUT, for the most part, he did not seem to be THAT interested in every little thing I did. He had a life and agenda of his own. Malfoy, however, ALWAYS SEEMS TO BE WATCHING Potter. At least, it is only those times when JKR wants to include him in the story...the only time she ever shows Malfoy doing something other than ticking Potter off is in CoS...and even THEN he is on and on about what Potter is doing. Finally, I was particularly struck by his words to Harry in the final chapter of GoF. "You picked the losing side, Potter! I warned you! I told you you ought to choose your company more carefully, remember? ((who but a fan would remember things like that???))..." As far as I can recall, Draco doesn't ever say *he* personally will come after Potter. The scene that really has me wondering is at the beginning of GoF, where he warns off Harry, Ron and Hermione. I guess I should save the question of why for another post, but those are just some thoughts I had that have given me reason to think that maybe the death she is speaking of is Draco's. JKR seems to have set him up as a character that approaches Harry with the intent to really mess things up, but actually spurs Harry on to discovering things about himself or key clues on problems he is looking to solve. Draco is one of three types of characters 1) disposable in that JKR has no further plans for him in Harry's world other than the 2-dimensional foil or 2) a tragic character who has the potential of changing, but because of Slytherin tendencies, can't or won't; or, finally, 3) the 'replacement' bad guy for Voldemort in Harry's generation. JKR has already quashed the idea that Draco will join Harry in the fight against Voldemort...so where else has the character to go? Best, feumindra From fun_n_games_2663 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 6 22:55:00 2002 From: fun_n_games_2663 at yahoo.com (fun_n_games_2663) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 22:55:00 -0000 Subject: The Bull's Eye on Hermione's Back (WAS Doomed, they're doomed! [) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46200 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "amberhillcrest" wrote: > But where would she have learned to fly? In SS, the only flying lesson is the one in which Neville gets hurt and Harry is caught flying and made the new Seeker. After that, there are no more flying lessons. Please correct me if I am wrong, but that is the only flying lesson in the whole series (and it is interrupted, no less!) Ron knows how to fly because he plays pick-up games of Quidditch with his brothers, but Hermione does not appear interested in athletic pursuits. It seems rather incredulous that Hermione would instinctively know how to fly even if she was feeling a burst of adrenaline when she flies in SS. > > -Maureen Amber Now me: Wait, wait, wait. If I remember (I don't have my books with me)she actually flew in the flying keys sequence (the book, not the MTMNBN). We have to remember that not everything that occurs at Hogwarts is written in the books. We don't see every herbology class or charms class either, but we can assume that the trio are learning about plants and charms we don't know about nevertheless. I believe we can safely assume that Hermione has learned to fly--the classes simply weren't important to the storyline. While I'm at it, I have to take a pragmatic view of the "who will die" debate. JKR is still writing for a much broader audience than us adults who have become entranced by them. Young, impressionable kids are reading them. Further, these books are still in the heroic venture genre. The heroes don't die--they win over evil, even though great loss may have been suffered. I would not expect any of the trio to die, even in book seven. The one to die in book five will be someone we will get to know in book five or one we obtain newfound respect for (such as Draco coming over to the good side, but getting killed, or Snape who, although pretending to hate Harry and be evil has fought all along against the dark side, is found out as a traitor to V and is killed). In short, I don't think JKR is really going to reach down and rip out kids' hearts. She will build someone up so we have compassion, and then kill them, but she won't take away one of the truly lovable characters--at least until book 7. fun_n_games From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Nov 7 00:24:34 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 18:24:34 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Prefect system References: Message-ID: <3DC9B2C2.4FD7FF97@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46201 Darla wrote: > > Hello! > Have just been looking over the poll questions etc, and something > struck me as odd. One of the questions was 'which boy do you think > will be made prefect?' and i just realised it doesn't make sense. I > mean, only one boy and one girl can be made head boy/girl, but the > system i've always known is that quite a few people can be made > prefects in the same house etc, they just need to have a good > reputation. (remember mrs weasley telling the twins she'd noticed > that neither of them had been made prefects?) But a lot of people > talk about prefects as if only one boy/girl can be a prefect from > each house. help? > Darla. > I suspect that there is only 1 head girl and 1 head boy (Senior Prefect?), but that normal Prefects are maybe a step below that and not the same 'rank'. In some RL British, Australian or New Zealand schools, they will have a Head boy/girl and as many as 5 prefects for each 'house'. The senior prefect in some cases is called the 'head boy' or 'head girl'. This is assuming that the idea is based on RL boarding style private schools.. Jazmyn From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Nov 7 00:40:30 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 18:40:30 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Bull's Eye on Hermione's Back (WAS Doomed, they're doomed! [) References: Message-ID: <3DC9B67E.E9D891CE@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46202 amberhillcrest wrote: > > > But where would she have learned to fly? In SS, the only flying > lesson is the one in which Neville gets hurt and Harry is caught > flying and made the new Seeker. After that, there are no more flying > lessons. Please correct me if I am wrong, but that is the only flying > lesson in the whole series (and it is interrupted, no less!) Ron > knows how to fly because he plays pick-up games of Quidditch with his > brothers, but Hermione does not appear interested in athletic > pursuits. It seems rather incredulous that Hermione would > instinctively know how to fly even if she was feeling a burst of > adrenaline when she flies in SS. > > -Maureen Amber > > _ The only flying lesson in the whole book? Excuse me, but when did the book document EVERY SINGLE DAY of school? They skipped over a lot of days, in which there may have been all sorts of lessons that were not 'on camera'. She could very well have learned 'off camera' in some class that was not written about. Just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean it never happened.. They don't mention people using deodorant or cleaning cat boxes of feline 'pets'... But I'm sure someone is doing it, even if its anti-BO spells or house elves picking up after Crookshanks.. Hermione may very well know how to fly, but only does it if she has to. I mean, Snape obviously knows how to fly, but the only time we see him on a broom is when he is being the Quiddich ref that one time. May be that some people have NO interest in flying a broom unless they have no other choice. Jazmyn From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 7 01:21:55 2002 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Meggers S.) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 20:21:55 -0500 Subject: Weasley Economics Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46203 Why are the Weasley's poor? OK, the explanation is that Arthur REALLY loves his job and doesn't want to be promoted, but why doesn't Molly get a job? Especially since ALL of her children are gone 9 or 10 months out of the year. What does she do with her time? Also, the Weasley's being poor should be wearing off now. When Bill and Charlie were young I doubt they felt the strap for cash. And now Percy has his own job and the twins will graduate soon, leaving Molly and Arthur left to only tend with 2 children. I REALLY hope JKR lets up on the poor Ron thing soon, because soon it just won't make sense anymore. Oh, and one more question, do you think Bill and CHarlie are different from the rest of the Weasley children since they did not have as many children to tend to at the time? Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Malady579 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 7 01:56:20 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 01:56:20 -0000 Subject: Happy endings? A good thing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46204 I want to combine these two posts, because they cover the same topic really. Megalynn wrote: >I mean geez, I would really be bummed out about the whole series if >most characters did not finally get some happiness in the ending. I >am not saying I don't think there will be some sad death's, BUT I >don't think there is gonna be some blood bath like a lot of the >posts have projected lately. -and- fun_n_games: >Further, these books are still in the heroic venture genre. The >heroes don't die--they win over evil, even though great loss may have >been suffered. **snip** In short, I don't think JKR is really going >to reach down and rip out kids' hearts. Yes, these are children's books. BUT, Rowling has made perfectly clear that she intend to write evil for what it is...pure evil. She has never wanted to pussyfoot around and shield young eyes from the harsh reality of decision-making. If there is a point that parents' feel their child should be kept from reading the series until the day they are ready, then Rowling will still write for that day. I think of Shakespeare. He twisted his plots to not be typical. I mean gracious, just about everyone died in Hamlet, and the two main "heroes" of Romeo and Juliet not only die but brought down the world with it. Yes, these two are labeled tragedies...now. What the playhouse labeled them to bring in the initial customers probably was completely different. I don't see the virtue of "protecting" a character just because the reader likes them. It creates a false pretense to be wrongly paralleled to reality. Besides, sometimes the hero wins in death. There is more to a hero than just surviving. A martyr is a hero. Valiant, brave, idealistic. While, yes, you want them to live, quietly you know that this ending is somehow resonating deeper with such accord that it was truly the only way. Somehow, no matter who dies in the end, I have a feeling Rowling will manage to create that ending, and we all will be in awe. Melody From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 02:09:41 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 02:09:41 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Who Will Die, Who Shouldn't Die, And Who Oughtta Die Polls In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46205 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > Dear listmembers, > > In JKR's recent BBC Newsround interview, ... said, "And there's a bad death in it, ...." ...snip... > > The Moderator Team has set up four polls .... > > Cindy, for the Mods Whew! Is that a refief. I was sure this was going to be a post by the moderator's tell us to knock off all the 'he dead/she's dead' predictions. Just one problem with the polls. WHERE'S THAT CUTIE CHO CHANG! Sorry, didn't mean to shout, but I'm pretty sure she's as dead as they come. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 02:23:09 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 02:23:09 -0000 Subject: CHO; was Harry's no killer/Mundungus... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46206 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "revanto" wrote: Revanto said: > > As for the death, I think that it might be either Lupin or Sirius > that dies. Hagrid's too mainstream to kill (yet!). It would be really > sad if Cho Chang died. > > Revanto > - On his T-shirt: "I was hog-tied at Hogwarts!" - > > PS: I only mentioned the death cos I'm new and wanted to make a guess > without using a poll. bboy_mn adds: Personally, I think Cho Chang is the perfect character to be marked for death. I think she fulfils all the requirements. Here's my view of what will happen (which are certainly not presented here for the first time.) Harry already has a crush on Cho, so I think in the next book Harry will help Cho realized that he had no control over what happened to Cedric and that he wasn't responsible for Cerdric's death. Then I think since the both admired and respected Cedric, they will comfort each other and help each other grieve and this will bring them closer together. Short version, Harry and Cho will develop a relationship. (Which, as a side note, will make Hermione jealous, which in turn will make Ron jealous.) We have love, we have sympathy, we have a heartfelt connection to Harry and to the readers. The loss would surely devastate Harry. The death by evil of his first love; positively heartbreaking. Cho seems really nice, so I think JKR can very quickly make her a symathetice character. One that even we grow to love. I think other loved characters will die but in OoP; it's Cho. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From msbonsai at mninter.net Thu Nov 7 02:30:13 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 02:30:13 -0000 Subject: Hermione *must* be able to fly well because . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46207 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "amberhillcrest" wrote: > Here is another question--Even if we assume that Hermione has been taught to fly, who is to say that she is any good at it? > > > -Maureen Amber Me here: Ok, so they're taking a class. Hermione gets what, TOP MARKS at Hogwarts. I don't believe she could be getting top marks without getting top marks in flying/Madam Hooch's class as well. Just my opinion . . . Julie From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 7 02:33:47 2002 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Meggers S.) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 21:33:47 -0500 Subject: Weasley Economics Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46208 Ok, I apologize if this is a duplicate, but the post has not shown up after an hour, and the one right before it showed up immediately. How long have the Weasley's been poor? How much longer will they be poor? and Why doesn't Molly work? Surely with just 2 children (Bill and Charlie) the Weasley's were probably comfortable. The middle children are the ones with the brunt of "hard times", but shouldn't those be lightening up now? Especially by book 6 when even the twins are out of school and Molly and Arthur only have 2 children to care for. Even in book 4 their load got lighter because percy got his own job. I will really be disappointed if JKR keeps on with the "Poor Ron" thing much longer because it won't make sense. Also, why doesn't Molly get a job if the family is so strapped for cash? ALL of her kids are either out of the house or away at school 9 to 10 months out of the year? What does she do with her time? This is just my little issua that I hope will be addressed in the books. Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From msbonsai at mninter.net Thu Nov 7 02:47:51 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 02:47:51 -0000 Subject: Happy endings? A good thing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46209 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > I don't see the virtue of "protecting" a character just because the > reader likes them. It creates a false pretense to be wrongly > paralleled to reality. Besides, sometimes the hero wins in death. > There is more to a hero than just surviving. A martyr is a hero. > Valiant, brave, idealistic. While, yes, you want them to live, > quietly you know that this ending is somehow resonating deeper with > such accord that it was truly the only way. > > Somehow, no matter who dies in the end, I have a feeling Rowling will > manage to create that ending, and we all will be in awe. > > > Melody Hmm . . .I'm reminded somehow of the real Brother's Grimm. Not the Disneyfied versions, like Cinderella making everyone happy, but in the original, the sister's eyeballs were plucked out by a crow in the carriage . . . These were stories intended to be *evil* grown-up tales. Yet they're told to children now. I believe JKR believes that the children who read HP are supposed to be aging somewhat along with the character, and therefore as they age, maybe are ready to handle more adult themes. A good story is never for any specific genre . . . but for all. Just my opinion ;o) Julie From heidi at barefootpuppets.com Thu Nov 7 02:59:43 2002 From: heidi at barefootpuppets.com (barefootpuppets) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 02:59:43 -0000 Subject: Doomed, they're doomed! Looking at the Dursleys... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46210 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Liz" wrote: > I just thought of a couple people who haven't been considered yet for who will die in OotP. What about one of the Dursleys? I know right now they basically just act like one-dimensional jerks, but it's hard to tell what difference a book could make, especially one that is longer than GoF. JKR has said that they will become more important. > Lizbot Hmmm...My money isn't on the Dursley's dying either, BUT I have often wondered about the roots of the Dursley's fears/hatred of all things MAGIC. It just seems that there must be more beneath the surface. I've read some fanfics that have some interesting speculations. Factually we know the following: 1. It appears that Lily and Petunia's parents are both deceased. 2. The Dursley's want to "stamp out that nonsense." Possibly: It could be (based on there not having been mentioned) that Uncle Dursley's parents are also deceased. Is it possible that Petunia and Vernon's parents were all victims of the Muggle killings? Could it be that this is one of the things that brought this somewhat odd pair together? Perhpas JKR will give us some insight into their psyches in future books and make us a bit more sympathetic to them...or maybe not! Heidi R. From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Thu Nov 7 03:00:55 2002 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 22:00:55 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Bull's Eye on Hermione's Back (WAS Doomed, they'r... Message-ID: <191.fdf8962.2afb3167@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46211 In a message dated 11/6/02 4:35:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, crussell at arkansas.net writes: > bugaloo37-who thinks Hermione is one of Harry's most valuable assets > Harry's always getting help from somone, whether it's Ron or Hermione or his parents or Sirius. I feel that Hermione will die and Harry will be forced to think alone (obviously, logic isn't his strong point (not to say he's stupid though!)). Kind of like the Graveyard Scene in GoF where the ghosts come out of the wands, I think something like that will happen and the ghosts of Harry's fallen comrades will help him kill LV. (Actually, in a theory I have, the ghosts of all of LV's victims walk through him and kill him - because of some spell that Harry casts to make the ghosts hurt him, not just make LV feel like he's been splashed with cold water.) ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dis_aliter_visum at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 00:01:55 2002 From: dis_aliter_visum at yahoo.com (Francesca Browning) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 16:01:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Doomed, they're doomed! [Revised and expanded] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021107000155.92345.qmail@web40905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46212 --- bugaloo37 wrote: > > Something else about Bill Weasley needs to be > remembered-he works in > Egypt > Another Egypt connection. . .when the Weasleys visit Egypt, all of them visit one of the tombs, except Ginny. I've always wondered what this would mean for Ginny vs. the rest of the Weasleys, if anything. Any ideas out there? --Francesca __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From bloubet at incanmonkey.com Thu Nov 7 01:55:10 2002 From: bloubet at incanmonkey.com (bloubet at incanmonkey.com) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 01:55:10 -0000 Subject: Voldemort the Vampire Message-ID: <200211070155.gA71tAO60459@incanmonkey.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46213 I'm new, so please pardon any faux pas. *grin* This may have been mentioned earlier, but Voldemort is certainly a vampire in at least one sense -- we've seen him drinking blood. Unicorn blood, given, but blood nonetheless. And his creation "consumes" some of Harry's blood. I think that blood and vampires have played too important a background role so far in the series for them not to come to the fore somewhere in the last 3 books. (Though a JKR mindreader, I am NOT. *grin*) bel From RootBeerFloat57 at aol.com Thu Nov 7 01:55:55 2002 From: RootBeerFloat57 at aol.com (RootBeerFloat57 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 20:55:55 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Weasley Economics Message-ID: <4f.266b8cc6.2afb222b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46214 >From Megalynn: "Why are the Weasley's poor? OK, the explanation is that Arthur REALLY loves his job and doesn't want to be promoted, but why doesn't Molly get a job?" Some people, including myself, are in the opinion that it is something of a 'pure-blood' tradition or part of their culture to have the woman stay at home and not be forced to work. Perhaps the traditional thought is that the husband should be able to support his wife, as it was in many places throughout the world for a long time. There is some speculation that Molly has worked before as an Auror, hinted at perhaps by Dumbledore addressing not only Arthur but Molly as well in Goblet of Fire. "ALL of her children are gone 9 or 10 months out of the year." -Megalynn Yes, but it should be noted that just because a child is not directly in her care does not mean that she and Arthur don't have to support them. Money needs to be sent to children incase they need any sort of replenishing of supplies, anything for special occasions (such as things for school balls, sports, ect.), and books at the beginning of the year. -Rachel From amberhillcrest at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 02:03:17 2002 From: amberhillcrest at yahoo.com (amberhillcrest) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 02:03:17 -0000 Subject: Weasley Economics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46215 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Meggers S." wrote: > Why are the Weasley's poor? OK, the explanation is that Arthur REALLY loves his job and doesn't want to be promoted, but why doesn't Molly get a job? Especially since ALL of her children are gone 9 or 10 months out of the year. What does she do with her time? Also, the Weasley's being poor should be wearing off now. When Bill and Charlie were young I doubt they felt the strap for cash. And now Percy has his own job and the twins will graduate soon, leaving Molly and Arthur left to only tend with 2 children. I REALLY hope JKR lets up on the poor Ron thing soon, because soon it just won't make sense anymore. Oh, and one more question, do you think Bill and CHarlie are different from the rest of the Weasley children since they did not have as many children to tend to at the time? > > Megalynn Furthermore, why does Mrs. Weasley discourage the twins from starting their joke business? I would think that she would want them to be financially successful. It's not like there isn't a market for joke products, otherwise no one would go to the joke shop in Hogsmeade. To answer your second question, Draco Malfoy says in SS "My father told me that all the Weasleys have red hair, freckles and more children then they can afford." I'm not going to go into the possibility that there might be more than one Weasley family-- but it does seem to indicate that the Weasleys have always been poor. This could also simply be Malfoy expressing his views of superiority ("some wizarding families are better than others") -Maureen Amber From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 02:23:27 2002 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 02:23:27 -0000 Subject: Happy endings? A good thing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46216 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > > I don't see the virtue of "protecting" a character just because the > reader likes them. It creates a false pretense to be wrongly > paralleled to reality. Besides, sometimes the hero wins in death. > There is more to a hero than just surviving. A martyr is a hero. > Valiant, brave, idealistic. While, yes, you want them to live, > quietly you know that this ending is somehow resonating deeper with > such accord that it was truly the only way. > > Somehow, no matter who dies in the end, I have a feeling Rowling will > manage to create that ending, and we all will be in awe. > > > Melody Yes, I think I will be in awe of any ending Rowling will create. But it does not stop me from hoping that my favourite characters will survive the ending of the books. I don't want the end to parallel reality. I want to see the good guys winning with as less losses as possible. I think Rowling can achieve this too and still make book 7 a great read. Tragic ending is not necessarily a best one. I also think that if the hero fo these series would not have been a child, his "permanent death" would be more likely to happen. I don't know it is just seems way too cruel for fictional reality to put on the shoulders of the child the fate of the wizarding world and then not to let this child somehow enjoy the fruits of his labor. By the way, even though I am not a child (I am in my late twenties :o)), I see nothing wrong if Rowling decides to protect the character because I like him or her. As long as those characters manage to survive the war realistically, I will be a very happy camper. Alla From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Thu Nov 7 03:13:41 2002 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 22:13:41 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Everybody Dies! Message-ID: <28.2f5e1a04.2afb3465@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46217 In a message dated 11/6/02 8:43:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, megalynn44 at hotmail.com writes: > Ok, I have a beef with this board's doomsday theories and I must get it out. > > Does everyone REALLY think that All or MOst of our beloved characters will > die? What kind of sucky ending would that be? Would JKR really devote all > this time and take us through all 7 books to leave us with SUCH a > depressing > ending? I mean geez, I would really be bummed out about the whole series if > > most characters did not finally get some happiness in the ending. I am not > saying I don't think there will be some sad death's, BUT I don't think > there > is gonna be some blood bath like a lot of the posts have projected lately. > I > mean let's get a handle on ourselves here! OK, I have said my peace. Actually....I do. I think that would be a fantastic ending (well...not fantastic as in good....) to the series. LV and Harry have one last battle, and they cast two opposing spells. When the spells hit, they have the force of a nuclear bomb - everyone dies. Or if Harry finds some sort of spell to eliminate evil and it isn't specific enough. Everyone has *some* evil in them, and the spell would, in my crazy theory, wipe everyone out. I don't *want* everyone to die, but I can't help but think that that would be the best way to ensure the purity of a series - if nobody's left, nobody can write some crappy book/movie about it years later. *coughHalloweencough* That's an amazing emotional journey: we come to love these characters and then they're tragically ripped away from us.I've always said that if I write a book, that's how it will end. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ "Don't knock on Death's door; ring Death's doorbell and run away! Death really hates that." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 7 03:21:23 2002 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Meggers S.) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 22:21:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Weasley Economics Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46218 Racheal wrote: Some people, including myself, are in the opinion that it is something of a 'pure-blood' tradition or part of their culture to have the woman stay at home and not be forced to work. Perhaps the traditional thought is that the husband should be able to support his wife, as it was in many places throughout the world for a long time. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now me: I have a hard time swallowing this, simply because I have always been impressed by the lack of sexism in the wizard world of Harry Potter. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Racheal also wrote: Yes, but it should be noted that just because a child is not directly in her care does not mean that she and Arthur don't have to support them. Money needs to be sent to children incase they need any sort of replenishing of supplies, anything for special occasions (such as things for school balls, sports, ect.), and books at the beginning of the year. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Me again: I know they still have to support them, but my point is, she is not needed to stay at home and physically take care of the kids at home. She has plenty of time to go out and get a job and help pay for school, books, sports, etc. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 7 03:25:50 2002 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Meggers S.) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 22:25:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Everybody Dies! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46219 Oryomai wrote: I don't *want* everyone to die, but I can't help but think that that would be the best way to ensure the purity of a series - if nobody's left, nobody can write some crappy book/movie about it years later. *coughHalloweencough* That's an amazing emotional journey: we come to love these characters and then they're tragically ripped away from us.I've always said that if I write a book, that's how it will end. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JKR has already stated the final chapter of book 7 will tell about what happens to everyone after Hogwarts, and I think that copyright material will be enough to squish that wihtout having to drastically kill everyone. I still say everyone dieing in book 7 would leave a horrible taste in my mouth so to speak. I think JKR is better than that. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From amberhillcrest at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 03:17:31 2002 From: amberhillcrest at yahoo.com (amberhillcrest) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 03:17:31 -0000 Subject: Weasley Economics In-Reply-To: <4f.266b8cc6.2afb222b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46220 You're right- but there are many things that the children use/could use that are hand-me-downs. Ron had Scabbers, which was Bill's? rat and I imagine that they could hand-down textbooks as well. The only new things that I can think of them buying in terms of schools things are new robes for Percy and an owl for Percy and a new wand for Ron. Although this brings up an interesting question-- why does Mrs. Weasley buy old-fashioned dress robes for Ron? Why doesn't she use Bill or Charlie or even Percy's old robes. Even if Ron is a different size from his brothers, the robes could certainly be magically altered. -Maureen Amber From revanto at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 03:52:44 2002 From: revanto at yahoo.com (revanto) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 03:52:44 -0000 Subject: Does anyone have a theory about Peeves? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46221 I remember in the first book that the ghosts all had a meeting about Peeves and they mentioned that he wasn't really a ghost. I also heard that Cedric was coming back to book five but as an essence or something (more tangible than a ghost?). I'm guessing that's what Peeves is too. I think that Peeves was was killed in such a way that he somehow went mad before he died EG he could have been tortured and the pain was too much before he died. That could explain his craziness and childish behaviour. Any thoughts on this? Cheers Revanto - "Never use your wand as a toothpick. Trust me on this one" - From divaclv at aol.com Thu Nov 7 04:19:14 2002 From: divaclv at aol.com (c_voth312) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 04:19:14 -0000 Subject: Happy endings? A good thing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46222 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > Yes, these are children's books. BUT, Rowling has made perfectly > clear that she intend to write evil for what it is...pure evil. She > has never wanted to pussyfoot around and shield young eyes from the > harsh reality of decision-making. If there is a point that parents' > feel their child should be kept from reading the series until the day > they are ready, then Rowling will still write for that day. I think we see the telling moment in Rowling's overall tone for the series at the end of GoF: everyone's going home on the Hogwarts Express. Cedric is dead, Voldemort is back, Fudge is being a *$)@!, and things look pretty bleak in general. Then, to add insult to injury (literally), Malfoy and company come striding into the compartment and start gloating. Harry and his friend stand up together and hurl a barrage of hexes at their tormentors, knocking them sensless and leaving them with some pretty embarrassing physical effects. This strikes me as very strong forshadowing: things are bad, they're going get worse, and sometimes the wrong people are going to die...but in the long run, friendship, loyalty, and courage will win out. I see a lot of "realistic but positive" in the series, and I expect that's the way the remainder of it will play out. > I don't see the virtue of "protecting" a character just because the > reader likes them. It creates a false pretense to be wrongly > paralleled to reality. Besides, sometimes the hero wins in death. > There is more to a hero than just surviving. A martyr is a hero. > Valiant, brave, idealistic. While, yes, you want them to live, > quietly you know that this ending is somehow resonating deeper with > such accord that it was truly the only way. > Agreed. There is a difference between "sad" and "depressing." I expect Rowling will have us in tears, but she won't rip our hearts out and stomp on them. At least I hope not...I hate it when authors do that. ~Christi From historygrrl1 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 06:14:21 2002 From: historygrrl1 at yahoo.com (historygrrl1) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 06:14:21 -0000 Subject: Weasley Economics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46223 *This is my first message ever, but I've been lurking for a long time. Hi!* It makes perfect sense to me that Maolly Weasley does not (or does not appear to) work outside her home. There are a number of reasons for her to do so, and they're not very different from the reasons women in the real world do the same thing. For example, she's had 7 children. Factoring in the time for 6 pregnanies and allowing time for those children to reach school age (11 yoa) would have put her outside the conventional 9 to 5 work force for long stretches of time. Child care costs for so many children would likely have been so huge that it would have made more financial sense for Molly not to work outside the home and instead devote herself to caring for her children. For 6 years at a stretch, between the time Ginny was born and Percy went off to school, she had 5 children to care for year round. Even if she had the qualifications to command a high salary, paying someone to take care of 5 children would probably have meant that she lost money working, rather than earning it. For all we know, Molly does work during the school year. The fact that she doesn't during the summer suggests that she may be doing seasonal work, or that she may be self-employed - I don't know what she'd be doing exactly. We know she knits. Maybe she sells some of her work as well as giving each child a sweater for Christmas. There were no dress robes to be handed down to Ron because dress robes hadn't been on the school lists since the previous tri-wizard tournament held over a century before GoF. Knowing that more children were on the way, but not that a Triwizard tournament was coming up, the Weasleys would have chosen to save their money rather than buying unnecessary clothes. I like the suggestion that she was an Auror once. "Historygirl1" From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Nov 7 07:33:18 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 23:33:18 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Everybody Dies! In-Reply-To: <28.2f5e1a04.2afb3465@aol.com> References: <28.2f5e1a04.2afb3465@aol.com> Message-ID: <4522091166.20021106233318@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46224 Wednesday, November 6, 2002, 7:13:41 PM, SnapesSlytherin at aol.com wrote: Sac> Actually....I do. I think that would be a fantastic ending (well...not Sac> fantastic as in good....) to the series. LV and Harry have one last battle, Sac> and they cast two opposing spells. When the spells hit, they have the force Sac> of a nuclear bomb - everyone dies... Or, how about this?: I remember JKR saying in an interview (can someone confirm?) words to the effect that anyone who knows their Christian Doctrine knows what's coming up in the series... Now I've been wondering what that means... At first I thought it meant that Harry was going to, so to speak, "do an Aslan", i.e. die and then be resurrected... But then I read this article in _Time_ about current public obsession with apocalypse/Armageddon and they said something interesting... And maybe the Bible experts here can correct me if this is wrong, but they said that the Book of Revelations says that the Final Battle Between Good and Evil will be preceeded by seven years of escalating tribulation and strife in the world... So here's what I'm thinking: -- 7 Years of Tribulation = Harry's 7 years at Hogwarts -- Armegeddon (Christ vs. Satan) = Final battle of Harry's forces vs. V and DE's -- Millennium (Christ's 1000 year rule) = Wizards ascend to higher plane and Harry rules them for 1000 years(???) Is this idea totally insane?? -- Dave From anglinsbees at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 08:23:04 2002 From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 08:23:04 -0000 Subject: (Filk) The Continuing Story of Sirius Black Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46225 This one has been lurking in the back of my mind for quite some time now- once I finlly put fingers to keys it practically wrote itself... Continuing Story of Sirius Black A Filk By Ellen Anglin To the tune of "The Continuing story of Bungalow Bill" By The Beatles Hey, Sirus Black There's been an attack! By Sirus Black ! Back to Griffindor tower the students they all came, The Ladys canvas hung all ragged in It's frame But when asked who, Peeves knew who was the one to blame! All the children sing Hey Sirus Black! Theres been an attack By Sirus Black! Deep in the midnight hour when everybody slept, Into Griffindor tower a ragged figure crept Surprised Poor Ronald Weasley and then out the portrait leapt! All the children sing Hey, Sirus Black Theres been an attack! By Sirus Black! Off to the shrieking shack the dog dragged Ron and Rat Harry was close behind with `Mione and cat, Came round the corner and there the Prisoner sat All the children sing Hey, Sirus Black! It's an attack! By Sirus Black! From ZaraLyon at aol.com Thu Nov 7 08:35:31 2002 From: ZaraLyon at aol.com (ZaraLyon at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 03:35:31 EST Subject: Hermione's broomstick skills Message-ID: <29.309da7c2.2afb7fd3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46226 Maureen Amber wrote: "Here is another question--Even if we assume that Hermione has been taught to fly, who is to say that she is any good at it?"? Well, first, I think it is fairly safe to assume that, regardless of whether Harry was or was not excused from flying after the first lesson, that those lessons did continue. There are references to the FIRST flying lesson (as opposed to the ONLY flying lesson), and also, if memory serves, I believe that although we know they took Herbology first year, we weren't actually shown a Herbology class until CoS, although I could be mistaken, in which case I'm sure the nearest LOON will offer a correction. As to how we can say that Hermione probably does learn to fly at least competently, well, we are told that she had the best marks of the first years. Given that we are told that Neville's "good Herbology mark" makes up for his "abysmal Potions grade," it might just be that her other marks balanced out an average flying mark, it strikes me as out of character for Hermione to NOT learn something to the fullest extent possible. Especially in front of the Slytherins, I see her being very determined to master that broom or die trying! Rhiannon, who should be either sleeping or studying for her Classical Mythology exam tomorrow... but is doing neither and hoping to develop a motivation to do one or the other. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anglinsbees at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 08:41:26 2002 From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 08:41:26 -0000 Subject: Vampires / Immortality / Creature repression In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46227 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > > Ah, but vampires are classified as *non-wizard*...if that means > that people who become vampires lose their magic, Voldemort > may not be able to compensate for that. > > It would also go a long way to explain the great fear of vampires > among the wizard folk. Would creatures which have no > non-magical phase, such as Centaurs, die from the bite rather > than becoming immortal? > > Pippin Do you mean no magical abilities? (Centaurs?) I'm not sure they have no magical abilities- they certainly seem to have carried magic to a higher plane than wizards have.... As for other "Non-Wizard"s having no magical ability, that just aint's o- otherwise why are their rules on the books prohibiting them from having wands? (Well, house elves anyway. Lupin was allowed his wand- and vampires may be more similar to werewolves than Creatures since they are probably classed as Magical part-humans.) This Law suggests to me that other magical beings woudl have even greater power than they do if only they had wands- but the wizards have made rules against that, and send the Comitte for the Disposal of Dangerous Creatures or a similar group, after any who dare to get "Uppity" Sounds disturbingly similar to American rules that prohibited Black people from learning to read, congregating in excessive numbers, and carrying anythinbg that remotely resembled a weapon. Since Voldie obviously wouldn't give a hoot about Ministry laws, I'm sure he wouldnt give up his wand under any circumstances! And still, We just don't know enough about Vampires to make any reasonable guesses. J.K. Rowling has given us many tiny hints, but a suspicious lack of solid information. Very suspicious, in my estimation... Ellen The Pottering Beekeeper From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 7 10:40:04 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 10:40:04 -0000 Subject: The Bull's Eye on Hermione's Back In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46228 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > I wrote: > > > "She hasn't been shown to fly." > > > Susan wrote: > > > > Um, don't I remember that she (and Ron, along with Harry) mounted > > brooms in the flying key sequence of Book 1? I remember being > > impressed when I read it because there had been no discussion of > >how she learned. > > And then several folks correctly pointed out that Hermione was in > Madam Hooch's flying lessons, just like all the other Gryffindors. > > And this is where we get to see how inartful phrasing and poor > writing cause chaos. > > See, I said "She hasn't been shown to fly." Which could logically > be read to mean she hasn't been *taught* to fly. Actually, I > meant "The readers haven't been shown in the books that Hermione can > fly well or proficiently." And we haven't been shown that Hermione > is good with a broom. We are told Ron plays pick-up Quiddich, and > he takes a turn on the Firebolt. Hermione seems much less > interested in flying and brooms, generally. > > So I wasn't *wrong* or anything. No, no, no. > > I was just kinda sloppy. ;-) > > Cindy -- who now expects everyone to promptly change their "Who will > die?" votes to Hermione The only time I can remember Hermione making a reaction to flying is not on a broom but on Buckbeak in POA and as I recall she didn't like it one bit (she kept mettering 'I don't like this' or something similar) - I remember wondering at the time if she was bit afraid on heights but I could be way of base. Michelle From sharronpowell at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 11:20:42 2002 From: sharronpowell at yahoo.com (Sharron Powell) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 11:20:42 -0000 Subject: I doubt that Hermione will die Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46229 Hello, Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I doubt that Hermione will die. She and Ron serve as personifications of diferent parts of Harry, which he has to learn to balance. Think Luke, Leia, and Han or Kirk, Spock, and Bones. Now if you said that she will get shot down/seriously hurt during the final battle and appear dead, then I might agree. I agree with the consensus that Hagrid has had it, however. And Dumbledore almost has to die, so that the classic hero's journey can be fullfilled. The wise, old mentor almost always dies, so that the hero can fulfill his destiny alone. Sharron Powell -delurking for the first time. From elfundeb at comcast.net Thu Nov 7 12:31:40 2002 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 07:31:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Enabling the Slyths: Redeemable Draco References: Message-ID: <001401c28659$9fe82e00$3a3b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46230 Pippin wrote, about Slytherin: It is not ambition which is the ruin of Slytherin, nor the desire for power in itself, nor is it some unique susceptibility to evil. What Slytherins are susceptible to, I think, is *addiction.* The Sorting Hat holds the key: power*hungry* Slytherin, Harry's "nice thirst" to prove himself, Harry, released to Gryffindor because he said no. It seems that what Slytherin was looking for in his pupils, besides cunning and resourcefulness and that certain disregard for rules, was an addictive personality. This, then, explains the self-destructive behavior. Excellent idea! I've never been happy with the apparent condemnation of the House for the ambitious. But it makes much more sense if ambition isn't their problem, it's that they're "power-hungry", as the Sorting Hat says in GoF and their desires can become so strong they will "use any means" to achieve them. I want to apply this concept to describe Draco's constant abuse of Harry and his friends, though to put it in perspective, I'm including some of my own speculation on what lies behind it all. I sense, based in part on the scene in Knockturn Alley and in part on his wholesale adoption of his father's prejudices and approval of his Dark associations, that Draco's burning ambition is to achieve the approval of his father. And, based on Lucius' remarks in Mr. Borgin's shop, Draco is frequently, if not always, found wanting. I also think that Lucius' first assignment for Draco when he left for Hogwarts was to get on friendly terms with Harry. He sought Harry out on the train, "looking at Harry with a lot more interest than he had shown in Madam Malkin's shop." But Lucius' prejudices are so ingrained in him that his attempt falls flat: In the one sentence he utters between his introduction and his offer of friendship, he manages to insult Ron. And when he formally offers his friendship, the only way he knows how is to assert his superiority over the competition, a ploy that would work at home, but not with Harry. Harry's stinging rebuke of that offer ("I think I can tell who the wrong sort are for myself") must really hurt. It's still his first day at Hogwarts, and he's already failed his father. So he embarks on his anti-Harry campaign, targeting not just Harry but all of Harry's friends -- Ron, Hermione, Hagrid. And as he becomes addicted to this revenge, the activities escalate from taunts and attempts to get his enemies dismissed or expelled, to death wishes, the first of which IIRC appears in CoS when he remarks, "Five Galleons the next one dies. Pity it wasn't Granger." By the end of GoF, after the train incident in which he taunts Harry for picking "the losing side" and makes gleeful yet chilling predictions of his friends' deaths, Draco appears to be tottering on the edge of the cliff that marks the line beyond which redemption is possible. Draco doesn't look very redeemable, though I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of an unredeemable child. But, if it's an addiction, that helps explain things much better. Addicted!Draco could even be reclaimed/redeemed from the bottom of the cliff. Yes, I like the "addiction" explanation of Slytherin House's fatal flaw very much. Debbie who, contrary to popular opinion, has Draco on the short list of characters least likely to die; Lucius, on the other hand, is Dead!Dead!Dead! (but not till book 7) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 7 13:33:50 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 13:33:50 -0000 Subject: Everybody Dies! biblically? In-Reply-To: <4522091166.20021106233318@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46231 Warning:: Christian views points will be expressed as requested. If you do not want to read such issues, then please hit the 'next' button. May God have mercy on your soul. ;) Dave wondered: >... And maybe the Bible experts here > can correct me if this is wrong, but they said that the Book of > Revelations says that the Final Battle Between Good and Evil will be > preceeded by seven years of escalating tribulation and strife in the > world... So here's what I'm thinking: > > -- 7 Years of Tribulation = Harry's 7 years at Hogwarts > -- Armegeddon (Christ vs. Satan) = Final battle of Harry's forces vs. V and DE's > -- Millennium (Christ's 1000 year rule) = Wizards ascend to higher plane and Harry rules them for 1000 years(???) > > Is this idea totally insane?? No, it is not insane...in that form. That is the basic consensus of the interpretation of Revelations. The problem I find is how much of that parallel can we draw? Besides the basic structure you've given, little else could be paralleled to _The_Bible_. The start of the Tribulation is a "second coming" of Christ when he decends from heaven to receive the "believers in Christ" only. They are raptured up to heaven, and only the non-believers are left. I see no parallel of this to the HP series. The only turning point so far has been Harry's debodying Voldemort and there is a ten year time there where he is at the Dursley's which doesn't correlate to any biblical truths. The seven year tribulation is then the seven years after the rapture where evil takes grips of the earth, and the Anti-Christ rises to power fairly quickly. The anti-Christ is the devil incarnate and thus is quite evil, and yes, Voldemort could parallel since he is the "most evil wizard in a century", but that is only in a century. He is not told to be the worst of all time. So, in the tribulation, there are several plagues and events that happen that are prophesies to happen. No parallel there really either. As far as we know with HP, there is only one other prediction that we know about and that has *already* come true. No evil people are suffering from their decision. No dead-eaters have boils. No water has been turned to blood. I guess my only problems with comparing the HP pattern to Revelations is that Revelations is about powers greater than humans (God:good personified and Satan:evil personified) are battling for one last time. While the powers are working through humans for their war, there is a greater battle going on that just the human side of it. Angels and demons are involved for instance. The battle between Dumbledore and Voldemort is only between the human side of things. There is no higher plane really. The HP war is not a war to drive out evil from the WW *forever*. It is just a temporary war to destroy the evil (Voldemort) *right now*. Armageddon drives out evil *forever*. In the lake of fire. Where the devil belongs. So yes, interesting correlation to how the seven years echo in the HP series, but I think it is just coincidence...unless someone proves me wrong. Pip, you have your Bible handy? Melody From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Thu Nov 7 14:22:12 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 14:22:12 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Everybody Dies! biblically? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46232 Is the antichrist not suppose to die in some form and come back? That fits Voldemort's situation pretty much. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From msbonsai at mninter.net Thu Nov 7 14:29:24 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 14:29:24 -0000 Subject: GOF: Some things cleared up by reading. And LOTS of various questions/theories Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46233 Ok, about 3 weeks ago or so I mentioned that I had thought the Riddles were killed by the Basilisk. Yet if that were true, well, I have to ask, if they're killed by the basilisk, they're bodies would not decay, right? GOF p 641 *snip* "Bone of the father, unknowingly given, you will renew your son!" The surface of the grave at Harry's feet cracked. Horrified, Harry watched as a fine trickle of dust rose into the air at Wormtail's command and fell softly into the cauldron. *snip* So I'm also now on the page of Avada Kedavra :o) ----------- Someone please tell me again how old Hagrid is? How old is Mrs. Weasley? Two things in GOF make me ask this question: GOF p 617: *snip* Mrs. Weasley was intrigued by the Whomping Willow, which had been planted after she had left school, and reminisced at length about the gamekeeper before Hagrid, a man called Ogg. *snip* So we know the Whomping Willow was put in place for Lupin. Which would indicate that the Weasleys were not at Hogwarts when the Potters were. But it also means that however old Hagrid is, Mrs. Weasley is older! ---------- Voldemort seems to make stupid mistakes simply because he does not think through what he wants to do because he's so power hungry! His first mistake was when he allowed Mrs. Potter to die in the attempt to save Harry. GOF p 652: *snip* "His mother died in the attempt to save him -- and unwittingly provided him with a protection I admit I had not foreseen. . . . I could not touch the boy." *snip* And the second mistake is that he is so puffed up with trying to make his DE's see that a mere little boy could not kill him, that he decides that he has to duel with the boy to make sure the boy could even attempt to defend himself. Yet again he forgot about another ancient magic, or maybe he would have at least thought about finding out what was in Harry's wand. You can see this in the complete shock on his face through that whole scene. And then to top it all off, he does not want help from the DE's. He wants to be the one to kill Harry. Here the DE's are incredibly near Harry (presumably by all the shots fired at him from the wands, and by the muffled yell when he yells the Impediment Curse. Yet we see his puffed up pride allowing Harry just enough time to get away: GOF p 669: *snip* "Stand aside! I will kill him! He is mine!" shrieked Voldemort. Harry's hand had closed on Cedric's wrist; one tombstone stood between him and Voldemort, but Cedric was too heavy to carry, and the cup was out of reach -- Voldemort's red eyes flamed in the darkness. Harry saw his mouth curl into a smile, saw him raise his wand. "Accio!" Harry yelled, pointing his wand at the Triwizard Cup. It flew into the air and soared toward him. Harry caught it by the handle -- He heard Voldemort's scream of fury at the same moment that he felt the jerk behind his navel that meant the Portkey had worked -- it was speeding him away in a whirl of wind and color, and Cedric along with him. . . . They were going back. *snip* Now, you can either interpret this as Voldemort being incredibly stupid, or trying to let Harry get away again. Although I found it interesting that Crouch!Moody thought that killing Harry would bring him even more glory, as Voldemort seemed to not want any DE to kill Harry, as he wanted that privilidge himself. ----------- Now I have another question about the Triwizard cup Portkey. Neither Harry nor Cedric had heard that the Triwizard cup was a portkey. They both thought they just had to touch it, and the game would be over. Now, when he is transported back to the starting point (as Triwizard cups do when you grab them again) he found himself just outside the maze. I presume this is where people get the idea that it was supposed to be a portkey for the games? But I don't believe this could be quite the complete explanation. I don't believe that Portkeys bring you back to the exact spot where you transported from, but somewhere near it. I think the end of the maze was right next to the stands. GOF p 636-637 *snip* Cedric looked down at the Triwizard Cup and then up at Harry. "Did anyone tell you the cup was a Portkey?" he asked. "Nope," said Harry. He was looking around the graveyard. It was completely silent and slightly eerie. "Is this supposed to be part of the task?" "I dunno," said Cedric. He sounded slightly nervous. "Wands out, d'you reckon?" "Yeah," said Harry, glad that Cedric had made the suggestion rather than him. *snip* GOF p 671 *snip* He had come back to the edge of the maze. He could see the stands rising above him, the shapes of people moving in them, the stars above. *snip* Now I have two thoughts here. First being that the Triwizard Cup should not have been a portkey. The second being that as it was, he did not warn anyone not to touch the Triwizard Cup. Are portkeys strictly one time use? Do they always have a return destination on them? My second thought is that if both Harry and Cedric thought that the transportation to what was obviously hundreds of miles away from Hogwarts . . . GOF p 636 (obviously before the conversation above!): *snip* They had left the Hogwarts grounds completely; they had obviously traveled miles -- perhaps hundreds of miles -- for even the mountains surrounding the castle were gone. *snip* So if they knew they were so far away, and they knew the cup was a portkey, why didn't they just grab it and go back to the game? They had plenty of time. Instead they stood there watching Wormtail carry Voldemort over. ---------- Harry's protection. GOF p 657: *snip* "But how to get at Harry Potter? For he has been better protected than I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future. Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care. Not even I can touch him there. . . . Then, of course, there was the Quidditch World Cup. . . . I thought his protection might be weaker there, away from his releations and Dumbledore," *snip* Maybe you already get where this is going . . . GOF p 680: *snip* "This is not Alastor Moody," said Dumbledore quietly. "You have never known Alastor Moody. The real Moody would not have removed you from my sight after what happened tonight. The moment he took you, I knew -- and I followed." *snip* GOF p 657: *snip* "And then, the boy would return to Hogwarts, where he isunder the crooked nose of tha Muggle-loving fool from morning until night. So how could I take him?" *snip* GOF p 664: *snip* And then an unearthly and beautiful sound filled the air. . . . It was coming from every thread of the light-spun web vibrating around Harry and Voldemort. It was a sound Harry recognized, though he had heard it only once before in his life: phoenix song. It was the sound of hope to Harry . . . the most beautiful and welcome thing he had ever heard in his life. . . . He felt as though the song were inside him instead of just around him. . . . It was the sound he connected with Dumbledore, and it was almost as though a friend were speaking in his ear. . . . Don't break the connection. *snip* So . . . my thoughts on this are: 1. Is Dumbledore related to Harry? 2. Dumbledore always seems to know what Harry is up to . . . does he have some sort of way of watching him no matter where he is? Dumbledore never actually asks Harry what happened when he's holding onto Harry when he came back to the stadium. Harry offers the information instead. All Dumbledore says is Harry's name as he tries to get him to come back to conciousness. I almost think that in the office Dumbledore has Harry repeat everything that happens, just so he can think through what happened. After all, he does say in Crouch! Moody's office: GOF p 680: *snip* "He will stay, Minerva, because he needs to understand," said Dumbledore curtly. "Understanding is the first step to acceptance, and only with acceptance can there be recovery. He needs to know who has put him through the ordeal he has suffered tonight, and why." *snip* ---------- My next question has to do with Harry's right arm being the one stabbed by Wormtail to revive Voldemort. This is the same right arm where the bones had to regrow, and was stabbed by the Basilisk. At the same time, I was wondering, Harry had kicked the spider in the maze, and kicked him in the fangs and had poison all over him, and I would think that part of that poison was in his blood . . . surely they judges were able to see everything that was happening in the maze. Do you think Dumbledore was thinking about this as well when he and Sirius were so concerned about Harry's arm being cut open? Maybe the gleam in his eye has something to do with knowing that the poisons and everything else had happened to this arm? Or maybe it was because he knew that something he had done worked? ---------- Snape. Why does Dumbledore trust him? Dumbledore told Harry it was between him and Snape. Yet, we know Snape was indeed a DE, before he for some reason turned back to the other side. And then . . . GOF p 713: *snip* "Severus," said Dumbldore, turning to Snape, "you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready . . . if you are prepared . . ." "I am," said Snape. He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely. "Then good luck," said Dumbledore, and he watched, with a trace of apprehension on his face, as Snape swept wordlessly after Sirius. *snip* So Dumbledore is apprehensive. I have been thinking about this. I can see that maybe they have some sort of plan that they had initiated when Snape turned back . . . Snape would lure Voldemort into a direct connection with Dumbledore, making him think Dumbledore has become weak or something along those lines, and therefore Dumbledore would have a chance to take on Voldemort directly. Maybe the idea is that Dumbledore would die, or perhaps he's used the Sorcer's Stone himself . . . and that something can only start with Dumbledore's death? Something along those lines anyway. Perhaps Dumbledore's death is the one for OOP. Perhaps only in death can Dumbledore be defeated. On the other hand, perhaps Snape will be killed as Voldemort says that he fears the one missing there in the DE circle (perhaps JK is misleading us here -- after all he passes other DE's without comment. This could be Karkarof or Snape that he simply passes as well . . . ) is gone from him forever. On the other hand, since Harry and Voldemort are so firmly connected by their scar, perhaps Harry will have to die in the end to defeat Voldemort, or perhaps the scar will simply disappear when Voldemort finally dies? Ok, just my thoughts ;o) All comments welcome!! Julie "It is still best to be honest and truthful; to make the most of what we have; to be happy with simple pleasures and to be cheerful and have courage when things go wrong." Laura Ingalls Wilder From msbonsai at mninter.net Thu Nov 7 14:35:51 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 14:35:51 -0000 Subject: Voldemort the Vampire - Quirrell drank the unicorn blood, not Voldemort. In-Reply-To: <200211070155.gA71tAO60459@incanmonkey.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46234 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., wrote: > > I'm new, so please pardon any faux pas. *grin* > > This may have been mentioned earlier, but Voldemort is certainly a vampire in > at least one sense -- we've seen him drinking blood. Unicorn blood, given, > but blood nonetheless. > bel Me: I think this is a common misconception thanks to TMWSNBM.(where it just shows a *floating* thing) In the book SS/PS Quirrell makes it clear that it's him in the forest drinking the unicorns blood. Oops, sorry, it's VOLDEMORT who makes it clear :o) SS/PS p 293: Voldemort speaking *snip* "See what I have become?" the face said. "Mere shadow and vapor . . . I have form only when I can share another's body . . . but there have always beeen those willing to let me into their hearts and minds. . . . Unicoren blood has strengthened me, these past weeks . . . you saw faithful Quirrell drinking it for me in the forest . . ." *snip* So it's Quirrell who drinks the blood here. But nevertheless, it is blood drinking. And I mentioned just a few messages ago that I do believe that somehow Voldemort is a vampire and this is how he's not dead from all this. I think it's one of the *many* protections he mentions he took to secure that he would have life still. Julie From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Nov 7 15:10:51 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 15:10:51 -0000 Subject: GOF: Some things cleared up by reading. And LOTS of various questions/theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46235 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" wrote: > > > ----------- > Someone please tell me again how old Hagrid is? How old is Mrs. > Weasley? Two things in GOF make me ask this question: > > GOF p 617: > > *snip* > Mrs. Weasley was intrigued by the Whomping Willow, which had been > planted after she had left school, and reminisced at length about the > gamekeeper before Hagrid, a man called Ogg. > *snip* > > So we know the Whomping Willow was put in place for Lupin. Which > would indicate that the Weasleys were not at Hogwarts when the > Potters were. But it also means that however old Hagrid is, Mrs. > Weasley is older! > I'm assuming that Harry's time-turning episode via Riddle's diary takes him back to 6-13-43. Hagrid is clearly a student here. and we know he was expelled in his third year. If he is 13 or 14 in this scene, then he was born in 1929 or 1930, putting him in his early 50s when he delivers his letter to Harry. It doesn't follow that Mrs. W is older than Hagrid (although she may be) from her reminiscing of Mr. Ogg. We don't know how many years elapsed between Hagrid's expulsion and Dumbledore's promotion to Headmaster (since it was he who made Hagrid the gamekeeper). All this means is that Dumbledore was not headmaster when Molly first entered Hogwarts. - CMC From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Nov 7 15:15:56 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 09:15:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] GOF: Some things cleared up by reading. And LOTS of various questions/theories Message-ID: <4156173.1036682156458.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46236 Julie writes: > So we know the Whomping Willow was put in place for Lupin. Which > would indicate that the Weasleys were not at Hogwarts when the > Potters were. But it also means that however old Hagrid is, Mrs. > Weasley is older! Not necessarily. Hagrid was 16 when the chamber was opened the first time. That was fifty years before the second opening. Which means Hagrid is approximately 66 years old. The Whomping Willow was planted when Lupin came to Hogwarts. Snape being approximately 35, assuming they were in about the same year, means Lupin came to Hogwarts 24 years ago. That still leaves a gap of 26 years with no whomping willow and after Hagrid was expelled. We do not know that Hagrid instantly overnight became groundskeeper for Hogwarts. I'm sure it took years of training as an assistant before he took over the job completely. I still reckon that Hagrid was in training for at least 15 years before he got the job completely. I say that Hagrid was at Hogwarts as a helper when the Weasleys were there. And I doubt they had much interaction with him, as he wouldn't have much reason to come up to the castle, and not much reason for them to go visiting him. > Now, you can either interpret this as Voldemort being incredibly > stupid, or trying to let Harry get away again. Although I found it > interesting that Crouch!Moody thought that killing Harry would bring > him even more glory, as Voldemort seemed to not want any DE to kill > Harry, as he wanted that privilidge himself. Voldemort wasn't trying to let Harry get away, or else he wouldn've screamed in fury. He didn't know Harry could Accio something, or didn't think of it, which comes back to Crouch!Moody again. Since he gave him the accio idea to begin with in the first task. Crouch!Moody has a twisted idea of what Voldemort wants, he's really quite clueless. If he had succeeded in killing Harry, Voldemort would probably have killed him in a fit of anger. > Now I have two thoughts here. First being that the Triwizard Cup > should not have been a portkey. The second being that as it was, he > did not warn anyone not to touch the Triwizard Cup. Are portkeys > strictly one time use? Do they always have a return destination on > them? I think this particular portkey was designed to transport the winner out of the maze. However, Crouch!Moody messed with it and added a stop. So that the first stop was the graveyard and the second destination the original intention, outside the maze. > So if they knew they were so far away, and they knew the cup was a > portkey, why didn't they just grab it and go back to the game? They > had plenty of time. Instead they stood there watching Wormtail carry > Voldemort over. But they weren't certain. They thought it might be part of the task, part that hadn't been explained. Possibly even a tie breaker. Which, ironically, it was. And by the time Harry realized what was happening he was a bit disabled (on the ground retching with his scar hurting) and an instant later Cedric was dead. > So . . . my thoughts on this are: > 1. Is Dumbledore related to Harry? Slightly possible, something like a great great great grandfather or something. On the Potter side, perhaps. But once again, I guess that's a bit Star Wars. :) > 2. Dumbledore always seems to know what Harry is up to . . . does he > have some sort of way of watching him no matter where he is? > Dumbledore never actually asks Harry what happened when he's holding > onto Harry when he came back to the stadium. Harry offers the > information instead. All Dumbledore says is Harry's name as he tries I think it has something to do with the watch with the planets. I think Harry is one of them and it tells him what's going on with him. Vaguely, though, not every detail. > My next question has to do with Harry's right arm being the one > stabbed by Wormtail to revive Voldemort. This is the same right arm > where the bones had to regrow, and was stabbed by the Basilisk. At > poisons and everything else had happened to this arm? Or maybe it > was because he knew that something he had done worked? I think it's got something to do with that arm, or else it's way too big of a coincidence. I just can't quite put my finger on it, though. But it is specifically always that arm. The deboning, the fang, the cut, all the same arm. Ah, well, that's enough for now. Richelle ---------- Ok, about 3 weeks ago or so I mentioned that I had thought the Riddles were killed by the Basilisk. Yet if that were true, well, I have to ask, if they're killed by the basilisk, they're bodies would not decay, right? GOF p 641 *snip* "Bone of the father, unknowingly given, you will renew your son!" The surface of the grave at Harry's feet cracked. Horrified, Harry watched as a fine trickle of dust rose into the air at Wormtail's command and fell softly into the cauldron. *snip* So I'm also now on the page of Avada Kedavra :o) ----------- Someone please tell me again how old Hagrid is? How old is Mrs. Weasley? Two things in GOF make me ask this question: GOF p 617: *snip* Mrs. Weasley was intrigued by the Whomping Willow, which had been planted after she had left school, and reminisced at length about the gamekeeper before Hagrid, a man called Ogg. *snip* So we know the Whomping Willow was put in place for Lupin. Which would indicate that the Weasleys were not at Hogwarts when the Potters were. But it also means that however old Hagrid is, Mrs. Weasley is older! ---------- Voldemort seems to make stupid mistakes simply because he does not think through what he wants to do because he's so power hungry! His first mistake was when he allowed Mrs. Potter to die in the attempt to save Harry. GOF p 652: *snip* "His mother died in the attempt to save him -- and unwittingly provided him with a protection I admit I had not foreseen. . . . I could not touch the boy." *snip* And the second mistake is that he is so puffed up with trying to make his DE's see that a mere little boy could not kill him, that he decides that he has to duel with the boy to make sure the boy could even attempt to defend himself. Yet again he forgot about another ancient magic, or maybe he would have at least thought about finding out what was in Harry's wand. You can see this in the complete shock on his face through that whole scene. And then to top it all off, he does not want help from the DE's. He wants to be the one to kill Harry. Here the DE's are incredibly near Harry (presumably by all the shots fired at him from the wands, and by the muffled yell when he yells the Impediment Curse. Yet we see his puffed up pride allowing Harry just enough time to get away: GOF p 669: *snip* "Stand aside! I will kill him! He is mine!" shrieked Voldemort. Harry's hand had closed on Cedric's wrist; one tombstone stood between him and Voldemort, but Cedric was too heavy to carry, and the cup was out of reach -- Voldemort's red eyes flamed in the darkness. Harry saw his mouth curl into a smile, saw him raise his wand. "Accio!" Harry yelled, pointing his wand at the Triwizard Cup. It flew into the air and soared toward him. Harry caught it by the handle -- He heard Voldemort's scream of fury at the same moment that he felt the jerk behind his navel that meant the Portkey had worked -- it was speeding him away in a whirl of wind and color, and Cedric along with him. . . . They were going back. *snip* Now, you can either interpret this as Voldemort being incredibly stupid, or trying to let Harry get away again. Although I found it interesting that Crouch!Moody thought that killing Harry would bring him even more glory, as Voldemort seemed to not want any DE to kill Harry, as he wanted that privilidge himself. ----------- Now I have another question about the Triwizard cup Portkey. Neither Harry nor Cedric had heard that the Triwizard cup was a portkey. They both thought they just had to touch it, and the game would be over. Now, when he is transported back to the starting point (as Triwizard cups do when you grab them again) he found himself just outside the maze. I presume this is where people get the idea that it was supposed to be a portkey for the games? But I don't believe this could be quite the complete explanation. I don't believe that Portkeys bring you back to the exact spot where you transported from, but somewhere near it. I think the end of the maze was right next to the stands. GOF p 636-637 *snip* Cedric looked down at the Triwizard Cup and then up at Harry. "Did anyone tell you the cup was a Portkey?" he asked. "Nope," said Harry. He was looking around the graveyard. It was completely silent and slightly eerie. "Is this supposed to be part of the task?" "I dunno," said Cedric. He sounded slightly nervous. "Wands out, d'you reckon?" "Yeah," said Harry, glad that Cedric had made the suggestion rather than him. *snip* GOF p 671 *snip* He had come back to the edge of the maze. He could see the stands rising above him, the shapes of people moving in them, the stars above. *snip* Now I have two thoughts here. First being that the Triwizard Cup should not have been a portkey. The second being that as it was, he did not warn anyone not to touch the Triwizard Cup. Are portkeys strictly one time use? Do they always have a return destination on them? My second thought is that if both Harry and Cedric thought that the transportation to what was obviously hundreds of miles away from Hogwarts . . . GOF p 636 (obviously before the conversation above!): *snip* They had left the Hogwarts grounds completely; they had obviously traveled miles -- perhaps hundreds of miles -- for even the mountains surrounding the castle were gone. *snip* So if they knew they were so far away, and they knew the cup was a portkey, why didn't they just grab it and go back to the game? They had plenty of time. Instead they stood there watching Wormtail carry Voldemort over. ---------- Harry's protection. GOF p 657: *snip* "But how to get at Harry Potter? For he has been better protected than I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future. Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care. Not even I can touch him there. . . . Then, of course, there was the Quidditch World Cup. . . . I thought his protection might be weaker there, away from his releations and Dumbledore," *snip* Maybe you already get where this is going . . . GOF p 680: *snip* "This is not Alastor Moody," said Dumbledore quietly. "You have never known Alastor Moody. The real Moody would not have removed you from my sight after what happened tonight. The moment he took you, I knew -- and I followed." *snip* GOF p 657: *snip* "And then, the boy would return to Hogwarts, where he isunder the crooked nose of tha Muggle-loving fool from morning until night. So how could I take him?" *snip* GOF p 664: *snip* And then an unearthly and beautiful sound filled the air. . . . It was coming from every thread of the light-spun web vibrating around Harry and Voldemort. It was a sound Harry recognized, though he had heard it only once before in his life: phoenix song. It was the sound of hope to Harry . . . the most beautiful and welcome thing he had ever heard in his life. . . . He felt as though the song were inside him instead of just around him. . . . It was the sound he connected with Dumbledore, and it was almost as though a friend were speaking in his ear. . . . Don't break the connection. *snip* So . . . my thoughts on this are: 1. Is Dumbledore related to Harry? 2. Dumbledore always seems to know what Harry is up to . . . does he have some sort of way of watching him no matter where he is? Dumbledore never actually asks Harry what happened when he's holding onto Harry when he came back to the stadium. Harry offers the information instead. All Dumbledore says is Harry's name as he tries to get him to come back to conciousness. I almost think that in the office Dumbledore has Harry repeat everything that happens, just so he can think through what happened. After all, he does say in Crouch! Moody's office: GOF p 680: *snip* "He will stay, Minerva, because he needs to understand," said Dumbledore curtly. "Understanding is the first step to acceptance, and only with acceptance can there be recovery. He needs to know who has put him through the ordeal he has suffered tonight, and why." *snip* ---------- My next question has to do with Harry's right arm being the one stabbed by Wormtail to revive Voldemort. This is the same right arm where the bones had to regrow, and was stabbed by the Basilisk. At the same time, I was wondering, Harry had kicked the spider in the maze, and kicked him in the fangs and had poison all over him, and I would think that part of that poison was in his blood . . . surely they judges were able to see everything that was happening in the maze. Do you think Dumbledore was thinking about this as well when he and Sirius were so concerned about Harry's arm being cut open? Maybe the gleam in his eye has something to do with knowing that the poisons and everything else had happened to this arm? Or maybe it was because he knew that something he had done worked? ---------- Snape. Why does Dumbledore trust him? Dumbledore told Harry it was between him and Snape. Yet, we know Snape was indeed a DE, before he for some reason turned back to the other side. And then . . . GOF p 713: *snip* "Severus," said Dumbldore, turning to Snape, "you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready . . . if you are prepared . . ." "I am," said Snape. He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely. "Then good luck," said Dumbledore, and he watched, with a trace of apprehension on his face, as Snape swept wordlessly after Sirius. *snip* So Dumbledore is apprehensive. I have been thinking about this. I can see that maybe they have some sort of plan that they had initiated when Snape turned back . . . Snape would lure Voldemort into a direct connection with Dumbledore, making him think Dumbledore has become weak or something along those lines, and therefore Dumbledore would have a chance to take on Voldemort directly. Maybe the idea is that Dumbledore would die, or perhaps he's used the Sorcer's Stone himself . . . and that something can only start with Dumbledore's death? Something along those lines anyway. Perhaps Dumbledore's death is the one for OOP. Perhaps only in death can Dumbledore be defeated. On the other hand, perhaps Snape will be killed as Voldemort says that he fears the one missing there in the DE circle (perhaps JK is misleading us here -- after all he passes other DE's without comment. This could be Karkarof or Snape that he simply passes as well . . . ) is gone from him forever. On the other hand, since Harry and Voldemort are so firmly connected by their scar, perhaps Harry will have to die in the end to defeat Voldemort, or perhaps the scar will simply disappear when Voldemort finally dies? Ok, just my thoughts ;o) All comments welcome!! Julie "It is still best to be honest and truthful; to make the most of what we have; to be happy with simple pleasures and to be cheerful and have courage when things go wrong." Laura Ingalls Wilder ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 15:48:53 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 15:48:53 -0000 Subject: GOF: Some things cleared up by reading. And LOTS of various questions/theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46237 Julie ("jastrangfeld") wrote: > Ok, about 3 weeks ago or so I mentioned that I had thought the > Riddles were killed by the Basilisk. Yet if that were true, well, > I have to ask, if they're killed by the basilisk, they're bodies > would not decay, right? Now me: It's clear to me that Voldemort killed his father and his grandparents by hitting them with AKs. They were not killed by the basilisk (which was locked up in the Chamber at the time). I don't think there's anything in canon that suggests that the body of a person who is killed by a basilisk does not decay. Moaning Myrtle turned into a ghost, but that doesn't mean her body didn't decay. Julie again: > Voldemort seems to make stupid mistakes simply because he does not > think through what he wants to do because he's so power hungry! > And then to top it all off, he does not want help from the > DE's. He wants to be the one to kill Harry. Me again: While I agree that Voldemort is power hungry, I don't think he's stupid. He has a need to show his DEs that he can kill Harry because he's has three unsuccessful attempts at killing Harry so far. By showing the DEs that he can kill Harry in a fair and square duel, he restores his DE power base and facilitates his rise to power. Voldemort believed he had thought it all through - by using Harry's blood in the potion, he believed he had negated the power of Lily's self-sacrifice. And he was correct - he could now touch Harry without hurting himself. However, he didn't anticipate the priori incantatem effect. I have a theory (which Grey Wolf kindly added to MAGIC DISHWASHER) that Dumbledore and Ollivander knew about it (since they were the only two that knew that both Harry and Voldemort's wands contained one of Fawkes' tail feathers) and thought it would save Harry's life in the final battle with Voldemort. I don't think Dumbledore and Ollivander anticipated it happening this early on in the fight, however. Julie again: > Although I found it interesting that Crouch!Moody thought that > killing Harry would bring him even more glory, as Voldemort seemed > to not want any DE to kill Harry, as he wanted that privilidge > himself. Me again: My theory (which was also added to MAGIC DISHWASHER, I believe) is that Crouch!Moody was left at Hogwarts during Voldemort's rebirthing party as a back-up plan in case Harry escaped the graveyard. So, IMO Crouch!Moody was under orders from Voldemort to kill Harry if he were to return to Hogwarts. Julie again: > Now I have another question about the Triwizard cup Portkey. > Neither Harry nor Cedric had heard that the Triwizard cup was a > portkey. They both thought they just had to touch it, and the game > would be over. Now, when he is transported back to the starting > point (as Triwizard cups do when you grab them again) he found > himself just outside the maze. I presume this is where people get > the idea that it was supposed to be a portkey for the games? But I > don't believe this could be quite the complete explanation. I > don't believe that Portkeys bring you back to the exact spot where > you transported from, but somewhere near it. I think the end of > the maze was right next to the stands. Me again: The MAGIC DISHWASHER theory holds that Crouch!Moody put an extra stop into the Cup portkey. So the portkey was originally intended to take the person who touched the Cup first out to the front of the maze. Crouch!Moody put an extra stop in to take the person to the graveyard instead. However, after the graveyard stop, the person who touches the Cup would go back to the original portkey destination - the front of the maze. Julie again: > So if they knew they were so far away, and they knew the cup was a > portkey, why didn't they just grab it and go back to the game? Me again: I don't think Harry and Cedric knew the Cup would take them back to Hogwarts. The reverse echo of Harry's father tells Harry this during the priori incantatem, but I don't think it had occurred to either Cedric or Harry before then. ~Phyllis From msbonsai at mninter.net Thu Nov 7 15:55:05 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 15:55:05 -0000 Subject: GOF: Some things cleared up by reading. And LOTS of various questions/theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46238 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: We don't know how many years > elapsed between Hagrid's expulsion and Dumbledore's promotion to > Headmaster (since it was he who made Hagrid the gamekeeper). All this > means is that Dumbledore was not headmaster when Molly first entered > Hogwarts. > > - CMC I'm not quite sure that I agree with this. I think this was the end of another school year when he was expelled, and I think the former headmaster probably quit then (or may have been asked to leave by the board, not sure there), and Dumbledore became headmaster. Therefore I think what would have been the *4th* year for Hagrid was his first year as Gamekeeper. SS/PS p 59: *snip* "Oh, well -- I was at Hogwarts meself but I -- er -- got expelled, ter tell yeh the truth. In me third year. They snapped me wand in half an' everything. But Dumbledore let me stay on as gamekeeper. Great man, Dumbledore." *snip* That little quote seems to me to mean *stay on* as in, no going to find a new home because daddy is dead and he has no home, Hogwarts became his home. He's expelled, yet stays. So I'm leaning towards end of school year here . . . Julie From msbonsai at mninter.net Thu Nov 7 16:07:30 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 16:07:30 -0000 Subject: GOF: Some things cleared up by reading. And LOTS of various questions/theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46239 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > It's clear to me that Voldemort killed his father and his > grandparents by hitting them with AKs. They were not killed by the > basilisk (which was locked up in the Chamber at the time). Me (Julie): That's what I was getting at :o) > Julie again: > > So if they knew they were so far away, and they knew the cup was a portkey, why didn't they just grab it and go back to the game? > > Phyllis again: > > I don't think Harry and Cedric knew the Cup would take them back to > Hogwarts. The reverse echo of Harry's father tells Harry this during > the priori incantatem, but I don't think it had occurred to either > Cedric or Harry before then. > > ~Phyllis Me (Julie): Now see, we know that Harry traveled by Portkey back to that park. Cedric may not have been with them there, but growing up in a wizarding family, I would think he would have known. I still contend that it's supposed to bring you back where you started. Just my opinion :o) Julie From msbonsai at mninter.net Thu Nov 7 16:10:10 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 16:10:10 -0000 Subject: Portkey - - forgot to say . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46240 > Me (Julie): Now see, we know that Harry traveled by Portkey back to > that park. Cedric may not have been with them there, but growing up > in a wizarding family, I would think he would have known. I still > contend that it's supposed to bring you back where you started. > > Just my opinion :o) > > Julie Sorry, forgot to explain that "that park" is referring to the return from the Quiditch World Cup :o) Julie From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 7 16:13:17 2002 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Meggers S.) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 11:13:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Everybody Dies! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46241 Dave wrote: And maybe the Bible experts here >can correct me if this is wrong, but they said that the Book of >Revelations says that the Final Battle Between Good and Evil will be >preceeded by seven years of escalating tribulation and strife in the >world... So here's what I'm thinking: > >-- 7 Years of Tribulation = Harry's 7 years at Hogwarts >-- Armegeddon (Christ vs. Satan) = Final battle of Harry's forces vs. V and >DE's >-- Millennium (Christ's 1000 year rule) = Wizards ascend to higher plane >and > Harry rules them for 1000 >years(???) > >Is this idea totally insane?? NOw me: Actually, that's the best new theory I have heard in a while _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From divaclv at aol.com Thu Nov 7 16:14:22 2002 From: divaclv at aol.com (c_voth312) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 16:14:22 -0000 Subject: GOF: Some things cleared up by reading. And LOTS of various questions/theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46242 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > While I agree that Voldemort is power hungry, I don't think he's > stupid. He has a need to show his DEs that he can kill Harry because > he's has three unsuccessful attempts at killing Harry so far. By > showing the DEs that he can kill Harry in a fair and square duel, he > restores his DE power base and facilitates his rise to power. "Stupid" is probably the wrong word for it. I think "hubris" is a lot closer to the mark. Voldemort tends to be overconfident in his power and knowledge, and this leads him to overlook the very things which undo him time and again. He doesn't know how Lily's sacrifice will protect Harry, he forgets phoenix tears have healing properties, he doesn't expect the Priori Incantatem effect (this last is kind of understandable, though--even if he knows about this particular phenomenon, how would he know Harry's wand core is identical to his own?). Each time, he believes it impossible for him to fail; each time he's proven wrong. In a way, it's almost like Voldemort is his own worst enemy. And yes, I do think a large part of Voldemort's motivation for the duel was to prove he was better than Harry, not only to his followers but to himself. After all, he's the greatest wizard in the world (in his own mind) and this *kid* who hasn't even gotten himself through school yet keeps tripping him up! That's got to be driving him nuts. ~Christi From cindysphinx at comcast.net Thu Nov 7 16:16:22 2002 From: cindysphinx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 16:16:22 -0000 Subject: Requiem for Weatherby (and a bit more on Hermione) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46243 "Requiem for Weatherby." That is so much kinder and gentler than going around painting bull's eyes on the backs of beloved character, don't you think? Eileen is much better at community relations than I am. I have much to learn. ;-) Eileen wrote: > Cindy, I wouldn't buy that Hermione theory if you paid me to, but >your words have had a chilling effect on me. What?!? Hey, last time I checked, *four* people had, uh, seen Hermione's light at the end of her long tunnel. Not to mention the fabulous piece of canon Aja found: >Voldy and the Death Eaters aren't too fond of Muggle-born witches. Oh, Aja has lifted the very heaviest part of that Hermione casket, don't you think? Yikes! What an excellent observation! Do DEs (or JKR) have even the slightest bit of remorse about hurting women? Uh, maybe I'll go ask Bertha Jorkins. And Mrs. Longbottom. No, DEs are Equal Opportunity Sadists, I think. Heck, Bertha and Mrs. Longbottom didn't even get a clean and quick death like Cedric. No, they had to be tortured until there was nothing left. Except for Lily. If you're Lily, then Voldemort will laugh directly in your face while you plead for your life before he blasts you into the arms of your maker. Nah, Hermione sure shouldn't expect a break from JKR because of her gender. And I'm not thinking her tender age is going to help her much, either. Besides, isn't there one of those cliches in fiction that the Evil Overlord who can't kill the hero does the next best thing by bumping off the hero's most beloved friend, thereby inspiring the hero to get all reckless and defeat the Evil Overlord Once And For All? Are you sure you won't convert, Eileen? You know, make it five people who are ordering black armbands with an "H" on them? How about if I sweeten the deal by explaining why Percy will be alive and well and brewing tea at the end of OoP? Eileen (picturing the aftermath of Percy's death): > Oh the pain! The agony! The weeping children: "I s-said I wished > P-percy was d-dead b-because he was b-boring!" Fred and George >going into deep depression and regretting their persecution of >their brother. Uh. Yes. I can see that you're really torn up about this whole Percy thing, aren't you? But why Percy in Book 5 instead of 6 or 7, though? Eileen has the answer when she warns: >Meanwhile, she can't stuff every death into the last book. Yes, that's true. One must *pace* oneself when it comes to rubbing out fictional characters. Right? ;-) And Eileen continues: >Because JKR loves Percy, even if > certain unappreciative child readers don't, because she loves the > Weasleys, and it's going to be heartbreaking. Hold up, hold up. JKR? Loves? Percy? Oh, I don't think so. I think Percy is tied for dead last in JKR's ranking of Weasleys. She clearly favors Ron, giving him more than his fair share of the good comedic lines. Next are the Twins, followed by Arthur, then Molly. Bill and Charlie are still in an embryonic stage of development, although I think JKR likes them just fine. But Percy? Oh, he has his purpose all right -- being the butt of jokes, representing the establishment, being a conduit of MoM information. But I think JKR could take him or leave him -- he hardly has a great number of sympathetic moments when JKR intentionally writes him favorably. I think most of the arguably positive attention Percy gets is as a device to demonstrate something to the reader. So the point of having Percy splash out to check on Ron is to show just how scary the second task was -- not to show the reader that Percy is a great guy and all. Nah, I think JKR could write Percy's demise just fine. She could scratch it out on the back of a cocktail napkin, for heaven's sake. Frankly, I think Percy is a lot closer to Cedric than to being a Big, Horrible, Difficult death. So Percy's safe, Eileen. For now. ;-) Cindy -- who likes real life happy endings very much, but can't get too excited about them in fiction From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 7 16:27:16 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 16:27:16 -0000 Subject: GOF: Some things cleared up by reading. And LOTS of various questions/theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46244 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" wrote: > ---------- > My next question has to do with Harry's right arm being the one > stabbed by Wormtail to revive Voldemort. This is the same right arm > where the bones had to regrow, and was stabbed by the Basilisk. At Me: As side note this is also Harrys wand arm - as he's right handed. (I don't know if this has anthying to do with it though) but if you want to Impede your enemy the most it seems logical to go for the wand arm. The best I can compare it to is handwriting you want to stop someone writing then hurt the writing arm/hand - although tis won't completely stop them from writing most people are a lot better at writing with one arm than the other, maybe its the same with wands i.e. I'm right handed and I can't write at all well with my left hand, so maybe right handed Harry can't use his wand that well with his left hand? Maybe I'm wrong - but I do think that the fact that his right arm is his wand arm is why its always this arm that is attacked. Michelle From aashby.aashby at verizon.net Thu Nov 7 06:18:07 2002 From: aashby.aashby at verizon.net (theatresm2002) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 06:18:07 -0000 Subject: Doomed, they're doomed! Kiss the droolmeister goodbye In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46245 My bet's on Fang. (Oh, the agony for Hagrid and the Awesome Threesome!) But then I'm a dog lover. Wonder if JKR is? Amy From lozza105 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 7 09:35:08 2002 From: lozza105 at hotmail.com (Lauren) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 09:35:08 -0000 Subject: The Bull's Eye on Hermione's Back (WAS Doomed, they're doomed! [) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46246 This is my first post here, so sorry if I do anything dumb. As much as I would hate Hermione dying in OoTP, I think it is very possible. Hagrid is TOO obvious. He was the first one everyone said after the "fan of Harry" comment was said. Having said that, I would seriously cry if Hermione died. Lauren From tiara_askew at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 15:10:22 2002 From: tiara_askew at yahoo.com (tiara_askew) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 15:10:22 -0000 Subject: Guy Fawkes day Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46247 I'm new here, so I don't know if this has been discussed before, but the connection of Fawkes the phoenix and Guy Fawkes is one that has troubled me for some time. The bonfire similarity to the phoenix rising from the ashes seems pretty clear - the troubling part is that Guy Fawkes was a traitor. Has anyone deconstructed this? I guess I just want reassurance that Fawkes and Dumbledore are not traitors - it's the one thing that would ruin the whole series for me. I'm enjoying reading everyone's thoughts and will try not to be so shy in future. :) tiara_askew From gliese229b at aol.com Thu Nov 7 15:34:18 2002 From: gliese229b at aol.com (qaztroc) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 15:34:18 -0000 Subject: Will Harry go to Egypt in OoTP? (was: Doomed, they're doomed!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46248 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > > Something else about Bill Weasley needs to be remembered-he works in > Egypt ( remember the Weasleys went to visit him in PoA). What > difference does that make -you might ask. Here is a recent discovery > I made concerning the origin of the Phoenix myth. Yes-the word > Phoenix is of Greek origin but guess what -the concept of the phoenix > is-you guessed it Egyptian. As everyone knows the Egyptians were > obsessed with immortality-a bird that can rise from the ashes-reborn- > would be right up there alley What better place for Voldemort to > head for than Eqypt in his quest for immortality-and if Bill just > happens to be there already-look out!! > > bugaloo37 Well, bugaloo37 may have something here! Remember when JKR said that Harry would go to some place that was mentioned previously in the books but that he hasn't visited yet? Most of us assumed that it would be Azkhaban or the MoM. But what if this were Egypt and those pyramids, or ancient tombs, where the Weasleys went on vacation? Or was it really a vacation? That would fit in nicely with the Egyptian connection suggested in the title. That would also suggest that Bill would be an important character in book 5 (and that he might indeed be the one to suffer a "bad death"). Any thoughts? -- qaztroc From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 7 16:31:12 2002 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Meggers S.) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 11:31:12 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GOF: Some things cleared up by reading. And LOTS of various questions/theories Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46249 jastrangfeld" wrote: ----------- > > Someone please tell me again how old Hagrid is? How old is Mrs. > > Weasley? Two things in GOF make me ask this question: > > > > GOF p 617: > > > > *snip* > > Mrs. Weasley was intrigued by the Whomping Willow, which had been > > planted after she had left school, and reminisced at length about >the > > gamekeeper before Hagrid, a man called Ogg. > > *snip* > > > > So we know the Whomping Willow was put in place for Lupin. Which > > would indicate that the Weasleys were not at Hogwarts when the > > Potters were. But it also means that however old Hagrid is, Mrs. > > Weasley is older! > > > >I'm assuming that Harry's time-turning episode via Riddle's diary >takes him back to 6-13-43. Hagrid is clearly a student here. and we >know he was expelled in his third year. If he is 13 or 14 in this >scene, then he was born in 1929 or 1930, putting him in his early 50s >when he delivers his letter to Harry. > >It doesn't follow that Mrs. W is older than Hagrid (although she may >be) from her reminiscing of Mr. Ogg. We don't know how many years >elapsed between Hagrid's expulsion and Dumbledore's promotion to >Headmaster (since it was he who made Hagrid the gamekeeper). All this >means is that Dumbledore was not headmaster when Molly first entered >Hogwarts. > > - CMC > > Ok My turn: If the Chamber of secrets was opened "50 years ago" as repeatedly said in CS and Hagrid was expelled in his third year, that would make him 63 in book two, not in his early 30's. I have also always wondered in McGonnigal was at Hogwarts at the same time as Riddle. Also, I assumed the Weasleys were younger than Hagrid and Voldemort/Riddle, but older than the Potters. I don't think Hagrid immediately became the gamekeeper at age 13. Maybe an assistant. Do we know if Dumbledore was headmaster when the Weasley's attended Hogwarts? That would sort it out. megalynn _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Thu Nov 7 16:36:42 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 16:36:42 +0000 Subject: LOTS of various questions/theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021107154727.0098b690@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 46250 At 14:29 07/11/02 +0000, jastrangfeld wrote: >Someone please tell me again how old Hagrid is? How old is Mrs. >Weasley? Two things in GOF make me ask this question: >So we know the Whomping Willow was put in place for Lupin. Which >would indicate that the Weasleys were not at Hogwarts when the >Potters were. But it also means that however old Hagrid is, Mrs. >Weasley is older! Not necessarily. As for Hagrid's age, he was in his third year at Hogwarts when he was expelled, and according to Riddle's diary, that was "fifty years ago". This would make Hagrid about 63/64. It's unlikely that Hagrid took over as grounds keeper immediately on being expelled. He doubtless had some period of apprenticeship with Ogg, which could have lasted some time. We don't know how long after planting the Whomping Willow Ogg retired (or Hagrid took over from him for other reasons), but it wouldn't be entirely unlikely if Hagrid was his assistant at the time. There's nothing in canon to indicate that the Weasley parents didn't know Hagrid during their time at Hogwarts, nor is there anything to indicate that Hagrid wasn't involved in some way in the planting of the Whomping Willow. In any event, we know that Hagrid was expelled 50 years before CoS. Dumbledore wasn't yet headmaster. We know (I think) that Dumbledore was already headmaster when the Weasley parents were there, and this was before the Willow was planted, during MWPP's time. >Voldemort seems to make stupid mistakes simply because he does not >think through what he wants to do because he's so power hungry! His >first mistake was when he allowed Mrs. Potter to die in the attempt >to save Harry. *Huge snip* It sounds as if the arguments you're putting forward are what started MAGIC DISHWASHER going. As difficult as YahooMort is, I suggest you look back at the various M.D. discussions... >Now I have two thoughts here. First being that the Triwizard Cup >should not have been a portkey. We don't necessarily know that. We know that the contestants didn't know. As has been said before, it would make sense for the Cup to transport the winner outside the maze, so that a) it would be obvious to the spectators that someone had solved the maze, and b) the winner didn't have to battle all the various obstacles again on the way out. I see nothing wrong with the Tournament organisers not telling the contestants about the Cup's being a Portkey - the winner would find out for themselves soon enough. :-) >The second being that as it was, he did not warn anyone not to touch the >Triwizard Cup. I'm not sure what you mean. There was no reason to warn anyone as presumably the Cup was in safe keeping somewhere anyway (it could even have been on display during the tournament, but protected by some kind of anti-proximity charm); Crouch-Moody was given the job of transporting it to the maze and as he says he "turned" it into a Portkey, it's possible that even he didn't know that it was already programmed to transport the winner to the maze's entrance. The only other instances of Portkeys we'd seen to date (getting to and from the QWC) were time-sensitive. The outgoing one had to be touched at a very precise time, and the return one had (as I recall) a wider window, but was still time-sensitive. It's therefore plausible that the Portkey properties wouldn't kick in until after the beginning of the Third Task. >Are portkeys strictly one time use? Do they always have a return >destination on >them? Again, from those we saw in use at the QWC, they are one-way, and programmed for one destination. It has been speculated that as he didn't know the Cup was already a Portkey, Moody interposed a new destination (the cemetary), which made it malfunction and serve as Harry's escape mechanism. >So if they knew they were so far away, and they knew the cup was a >portkey, why didn't they just grab it and go back to the game? They >had plenty of time. Instead they stood there watching Wormtail carry >Voldemort over. We don't know whether Cedric was conversant with Portkeys and their operation, but we know that Harry wasn't. As far as he knew, they are strictly one-way mechanisms, and it's only when the "shadows" told him otherwise that he knew he could do so. >1. Is Dumbledore related to Harry? Unlikely. Petunia and the Dursleys are "all the family he has left". >2. Dumbledore always seems to know what Harry is up to . . . does he >have some sort of way of watching him no matter where he is? There has been much speculation on this. The mysterious watch from the beginning of PS/SS has been put forward as a possible source of Dumbledore's information. >My next question has to do with Harry's right arm being the one >stabbed by Wormtail to revive Voldemort. This is the same right arm >where the bones had to regrow, and was stabbed by the Basilisk. At >the same time, I was wondering, Harry had kicked the spider in the >maze, and kicked him in the fangs and had poison all over him, and I >would think that part of that poison was in his blood . . . surely >they judges were able to see everything that was happening in the >maze. Do you think Dumbledore was thinking about this as well when >he and Sirius were so concerned about Harry's arm being cut open? >Maybe the gleam in his eye has something to do with knowing that the >poisons and everything else had happened to this arm? Or maybe it >was because he knew that something he had done worked? Hmmm... have you been reading alt.fan.harry-potter? :-) There was a recent discussion about the possibility that Harry might be immune to poisons, with inconclusive results. My own view is that I doubt this is intended on JKR's part. As for the significance of Harry's right arm, I would add another mention of it which you seem to have missed: It is his "wand hand", as per Olivander's question when selling Harry his wand. This, I believe, is indeed significant. As you said, a lot of stuff happens to Harry's right arm (even in TMTSNBN, at the end-of-year feast, his right wrist is bandaged). I suspect that something is going to happen to Harry's ability to use his wand (especially now that Voldemort knows about Priori Incantantem) which he will overcome, just as he's overcome all those injuries. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who knows he shouldn't be (ahem) wasting time (ahem) posting here, but couldn't resist... From jodel at aol.com Thu Nov 7 16:35:39 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 11:35:39 EST Subject: Hermione *must* be able to fly well because . . . Message-ID: <17d.117a7d5b.2afbf05b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46251 Julie states; << Ok, so they're taking a class. Hermione gets what, TOP MARKS at Hogwarts. I don't believe she could be getting top marks without getting top marks in flying/Madam Hooch's class as well. >> I've always suspected that she did so poorly in the one flying class we are shown because she had the bad luck to get one of the school's "dud" brooms. (Every school athletic department in the WORLD has dud equipment still in service. It's due for replacement, but the budget doesn't allow for that yet. The kids soon learn to avoid getting stuck with those items. Muggle-born Hermione didn't know how to recognize the trouble indicators yet. Neither did Harry, but he got one of the school's "good" brooms. Quite by chance.) She had no trouble on a broomstick by the end of the year when she ended up chasing flying keys, anyway. Side note; Do you think that the reason we are shown no more flying lessons may be because Harry was no longer taking them? Once he was on the team, the team's practice sessions would have accounted for the same amount of time and he could have been excused, leaving the rest of the beginner's class to continue without him. It's hard to imagine that they could have gotten through the rest of the whole year without *any* more uproars from Malfoy in flying class. But we aren't told about any. -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Thu Nov 7 16:35:37 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 11:35:37 EST Subject: Does anyone have a theory about Peeves? Message-ID: <191.fea4f35.2afbf059@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46252 Revanto says; << I'm guessing that's what Peeves is too. I think that Peeves was was killed in such a way that he somehow went mad before he died EG he could have been tortured and the pain was too much before he died. That could explain his craziness and childish behaviour. >> There's a fanfiction writer over on ff.net who writes under the pen name of Ozma and has produced a series of tales told in first-person narriative by none other than Argus Filtch. The lady has done her homework regardig the differences between ghosts and poltergeists. Unlike a ghost, it seems that a poltergeist is not the revenant of anything that was ever actually alive. Instead, it is a manifestation of psychic energy in the physical realm, and virtually always occurs in the presence of disturbed adolescents, strong emotions or some other form of psychic disturbance. Well duh! WHAT has Hogwarts castle been harboring for a thousand years but a horde of psychicly *active* adolescents with all their raging hormones, petty squabbles and teenage angst? It's been soaking up all of these vibes for centuries. Of COURSE it manifested a poltergeist. I'm surprised it doesn't have half a dozen. And if Dumbledore ever honored Filtch's demands that Peeves be exorcised, it would probably have manifested another by the end of the term. In any case, she certainly convinced me. -JOdel From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 7 16:42:41 2002 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Meggers S.) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 11:42:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weasley Economics Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46253 "Historygirl1" wrote: It makes perfect sense to me that Molly Weasley does not (or does not appear to) work outside her home. There are a number of reasons for her to do so, and they're not very different from the reasons women in the real world do the same thing. For example, she's had 7 children. Factoring in the time for 6 pregnanies and allowing time for those children to reach school age (11 yoa) would have put her outside the conventional 9 to 5 work force for long stretches of time. Me: I can agree and understand why MOlly DID not work, but my point is why doesn't she work NOW. NOW is the time when the most money is need for school, since most of the Weasley children are in school. The kids are now all out of the house or working for most of the year, so why doesn't she work to help the money crunch NOW. (sidenote: NOW= end of book 4) "Historygirl1" also wrote: For all we know, Molly does work during the school year. Me again: Considering the big deal made in the books about the Weasley's economic situation, I reall doubt JKR would leave out an important point like "Oh, Molly works too but it's still not enough." megalynn _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 16:51:22 2002 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Anne) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 08:51:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vampires in the HP Universe- Help please?/Hagrid's Wand In-Reply-To: <1036539873.5241.58753.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021107165122.11922.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46254 >Message: 5 Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 >14:12:38 -0000 >From: "mitchbailey82" Subject: Re: Vampires in th Hp >Universe- Help please? >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ellen & John Anglin" > wrote: >> Hello >> Been thinking about vampires recently, and was >considering their >> role in the HP-verse. >> Does anyone else find it significant that they were, >>perhaps > pointedly, left of Fantastic Beasts?> >Maybe their not classified as beasts at the start of >the book theres a section detailing how a beast is >classified a beast - can't remember the exact phrasing >> something about inteligence, understanding language >etc. However I do remember that the only reason >centaurs are classified as beasts is because they >asked to be and I'm sure it says in one of the notes >about werewolves that they were only classified as >beasts when they were in their wolf form. > So maybe the vampires intelligent (for lack >of a better word) enough not to be classified as a >beast. >Michelle Anne's Reply: Yes, I believe Michelle's right. After all, as they can buy lollipops in Honeydukes, you would infer that they are sentient beings (as in FB's distinction between "beasts" and "beings"). All of which leads me to speculate on how JKR may handle them if they make an appearance in the story. Somehow, although she follows classical legend as to how werewolves are created via bite, I doubt she will do the same for vampires. This would make them too evil and dangerous for Honeydukes shopping. They would be dangerous at all times, not just at a full moon. Perhaps the legends are built up from malicious gossip based on the (in my theory) fact that they do indeed like to drink blood; and harmless ones would use the blood of animals only, I suppose. Then if they go bad, they turn to the blood of humans, only, according to my theory, this does not result in the victim's becoming a new vampire. This way, vampires could be classified as beings; not too dangerous to need to be killed on sight, and still providing a source for the classical legends. Perhaps also, vampires generally like to hide from the WW much as Wizards like to hide (even more) from the Mw, and if sunlight hurts them, that would of course make them even more reclusive and subject to malicious theories. ---------------------------------- On to a separate theory about Hagrid's wand, which seems to work much better than Ron's less-damaged one did in CoS. Do you suppose Dumbledore secretly repaired it for him back when he got him the groundskeeper's job? Because after all, a wizard without a wand is almost unthinkable. I can hear Dumbledore saying, "There, Hagrid. It'll do pretty well now, though not quite as good as new, I'm afraid. Mind you keep this a secret, though, or it'll be confiscated before can say 'lemon drop.' Perhaps you could hide it in this old umbrella for the time being.'" Great man, Dumbledore. Anne __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From msbonsai at mninter.net Thu Nov 7 17:04:09 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 17:04:09 -0000 Subject: Portkeys & Poison immune Harry In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021107154727.0098b690@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46255 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: >Julie: >The second being that as it was, he did not warn anyone not to touch the > >Triwizard Cup. > GulPlum: > I'm not sure what you mean. There was no reason to warn anyone as > presumably the Cup was in safe keeping somewhere anyway (it could even have been on display during the tournament, but protected by some kind of anti-proximity charm); Crouch-Moody was given the job of transporting it to the maze and as he says he "turned" it into a Portkey, It's therefore plausible that the Portkey properties wouldn't kick in until after the beginning of the Third Task. sniped a bit ;o) Me (Julie): I actually was referring to when Harry was on the ground returned to the stadium and Dumbledore was trying to get him to respond . . . Harry says Voldemort is back, but doesn't say "don't touch the cup, it's a portkey to Voldemort". Julie: > >So if they knew they were so far away, and they knew the cup was a > >portkey, why didn't they just grab it and go back to the game? They >had plenty of time. Instead they stood there watching Wormtail carry >Voldemort over. > GulPlum: > We don't know whether Cedric was conversant with Portkeys and their > operation, but we know that Harry wasn't. As far as he knew, they are strictly one-way mechanisms, and it's only when the "shadows" told him otherwise that he knew he could do so. snipped a bit again :o) Me (Julie): I guess I was thinking that Cedric would have known about them from growing up in a wizarding family, and that Harry would have assumed it would take him back as they had at the QWC. Julie: > >poisons and everything else had happened to this arm? Or maybe it > >was because he knew that something he had done worked? > GulPlum: > Hmmm... have you been reading alt.fan.harry-potter? :-) There was a recent discussion about the possibility that Harry might be immune to poisons, with inconclusive results. My own view is that I doubt this is intended on JKR's part. Me (Julie): Interesting theory! No, I didn't know about alt.fan.harry-potter. Does anyone else have a take on this? From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 17:14:17 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 09:14:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Guy Fawkes day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021107171417.22759.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46256 tiara_askew wrote: I'm new here, so I don't know if this has been discussed before, but the connection of Fawkes the phoenix and Guy Fawkes is one that has troubled me for some time. The bonfire similarity to the phoenix rising from the ashes seems pretty clear - the troubling part is that Guy Fawkes was a traitor. Has anyone deconstructed this? I guess I just want reassurance that Fawkes and Dumbledore are not traitors - it's the one thing that would ruin the whole series for me. Me: I think that the Guy Fawkes connection depends upon your perspective. This site: http://www.bonefire.org/guy/gunpowder.php has some interesing information about the Gunpowder Plot. The last paragraph sums it up: "Some of the English have been known to wonder whether they are celebrating Fawkes' execution or honoring his attempt to do away with the government." As the plotters were reacting to/protesting the government's anti-Catholic bias, you might also be more generously disposed toward Fawkes (Guy, that is) if you are Catholic or otherwise a member of a religious minority (anything not C of E) with the possible exception of Friends/Quakers, who are pacifists. While this would quite accurately be labeled an act of terrorism today, the germ of it came directly from the religious oppression practiced by the Crown. The colonists who took part in the Boston Tea Party were also labeled traitors and would probably today be considered terrorists, although they were admittedly committing an act of economic terrorism and not trying to blow people up. (The were also responding to economic oppression, which is hardly the same thing as being oppressed because of your religious beliefs.) To bring this back to Dumbledore and Fawkes, I believe that equating them with someone who was frustrated to the point of reacting extremely to oppression is not out of line and does not demean them in the least. It would be rather easy, as a matter of fact, to equate witches and wizards (who were often burned--or at least, the Muggles tried to burn them) with traitors to the Crown who were reacting against religious oppression. In the new paradigm of a more isolated wizarding world, however, Dumbledore could very well be considered a traitor by Fudge and other people in the Ministry if he attempts to circumvent their authority by fighting Voldemort directly, along with the "old crowd." He is a notorious Muggle-lover, and Muggle-born magical folk could also be equated with Catholics in 17th century Britain as far as second-class status in the wizarding world is concerned. There are a number of possible parallels, in other words, none of which paint Dumbledore in a negative light unless you think being a rebel is a bad thing in general. I seriously doubt that he's planning to blow up the Ministry, but I do wonder whether he will be seen as such a threat to the status quo that the school's board will replace him at some point (giving him the opportunity to go underground and organize a shadow resistance to both Voldemort and the Ministry). --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 17:17:09 2002 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 09:17:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Portkeys & Poison immune Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021107171709.32668.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46257 --- Julie wrote: > I actually was referring to when Harry was on the ground returned to > the stadium and Dumbledore was trying to get him to respond . . . > Harry says Voldemort is back, but doesn't say "don't touch the cup, > it's a portkey to Voldemort". Well, Harry WAS in very severe shock at this point. He couldn't really say much of *anything* at that point, if memory serves; just shake and cling to Cedric's body. > I guess I was thinking that Cedric would have known about them from > growing up in a wizarding family, and that Harry would have assumed > it would take him back as they had at the QWC. Cedric probably would've known something about Portkeys, but Harry's only experience with them was at the QWC. When they arrived there, the old boot that had served as their portkey was just tossed in a pile with other "used" portkeys. It was my assumption that portkeys were one-way devices, and the objects would be re-spelled for the return trip, with Harry & Co not necessarily traveling back on the same boot. --- GulPlum wrote: > Hmmm... have you been reading alt.fan.harry-potter? :-) There was a > recent discussion about the possibility that Harry might be immune to > poisons, with inconclusive results. My own view is that I doubt this > is intended on JKR's part. I haven't read this discussion, but what about the basilisk's poison in COS? Harry certainly wasn't immune to that -- he just survived because of Fawkes. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com Thu Nov 7 16:34:08 2002 From: fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com (martha) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 16:34:08 -0000 Subject: Does anyone have a theory about Peeves? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46258 Hi, I could be wrong here, but from what I've read about poltergeists, one theory is that they are a sort of embodiment of excess energy - which is why there are so many cases of poltergeists turning up in households containing adolescents (particularly girls). In a school full of teenagers who, as well as going through all the usual growing- up-stuff, are learning to curb their magical abilities, it makes sense that a poltergeist might pitch up. I got the impression that if there was something more to Peeves that hasn't been made apparent yet, then he'd have been seen to do things other than plug up keyholes or sing rude versions of Christmas carols. Although, to be fair, this is JKR we're talking about, so it's entirely possible that Peeves turns out to play a completely unexpected part in the story. Just my 2 knuts. Hope that's helpful - I'm off back to Lurkerland. FPC Buttercup --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "revanto" wrote: > I remember in the first book that the ghosts all had a meeting about > Peeves and they mentioned that he wasn't really a ghost. I also heard > that Cedric was coming back to book five but as an essence or > something (more tangible than a ghost?). I'm guessing that's what > Peeves is too. I think that Peeves was was killed in such a way that > he somehow went mad before he died EG he could have been tortured and > the pain was too much before he died. That could explain his > craziness and childish behaviour. > > Any thoughts on this? From msbonsai at mninter.net Thu Nov 7 17:36:14 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 17:36:14 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Wand In-Reply-To: <20021107165122.11922.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46259 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Anne wrote: > On to a separate theory about Hagrid's wand, which > seems to work much better than Ron's less-damaged one > did in CoS. Do you suppose Dumbledore secretly > repaired it for him back when he got him the > groundskeeper's job? > Anne Me: Actually, I believe Ron's hand-me-down wand already had the insides sticking out of it in SS/PS. But you are right in that in CoS it gets broken in 2 pieces, the same as Hagrid's had been. (or at least it says in almost two pieces.) But I'm thinking Ron's was never meant to be specifically for him, it was a hand-me-down, and it was used, with I think it was Unicorn Hair sticking out of the end of it? So it was already pretty worn out. I guess that goes to the theory of you won't get as good a result with any other wizard's wand? Julie From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 17:57:16 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 17:57:16 -0000 Subject: Returning by Portkey (WAS: LOTS of various questions/theories) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46260 Julie ("jastrangfeld") wrote: > Now see, we know that Harry traveled by Portkey back to that park. > Cedric may not have been with them there, but growing up > in a wizarding family, I would think he would have known. I still > contend that it's supposed to bring you back where you started. Now me: The boot that served as the portkey to transport Harry, the Weasleys and the Diggorys to the QWC was tossed into a box after they arrived. This led me to believe that that boot wasn't the object that transported Harry and the Weasleys back to Stoatshead Hill (with the large number of wizards descending upon the QWC, how could they have possibly reunited each wizard with their originating portkey if they were all jumbled together in a box?). IIRC, there's no reference in GOF as to what object served as the portkey to take Harry and the Weasleys back home. I assumed it was a different object, based on my "jumbled box" hypothesis. ~Phyllis From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Nov 7 18:05:41 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 18:05:41 -0000 Subject: JKR Does SO Love Weatherby! AKA Penny, we need you here! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46261 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > What?!? Hey, last time I checked, *four* people had, uh, seen > Hermione's light at the end of her long tunnel. Let's make a deal. I'll support Hermione's death every bit as sincerely as you do, if you endorse my Frank Longbottom ambush scenario every bit as I sincerely as I do. (I can't believe your passing up on that one. It has Frank betrayed by his erstwhile colleague and friend EverSoEvil!Moody. We could even work in Rookwood if you like.) > >Meanwhile, she can't stuff every death into the last book. > > Yes, that's true. One must *pace* oneself when it comes to rubbing > out fictional characters. Right? ;-) Absolutely. Otherwise, the last book is going to be whole-sale slaughter, from one end to another. One death a chapter. There won't even be time for plot amidst the funerals. No, she has to pace herself. And to utilize bloody ambushes. These are good because you can off a few characters at once, which means you can have the odd death-free chapter for variety. > And Eileen continues: > > >Because JKR loves Percy, even if > > certain unappreciative child readers don't, because she loves the > > Weasleys, and it's going to be heartbreaking. > > Hold up, hold up. JKR? Loves? Percy? > > Oh, I don't think so. Oh yes, this is the woman who has a soft spot for both Severus Snape and Sirius Black and you're saying she doesn't love Percy Weasley. Yes, I know, she says she dislikes Severus, and she does disapprove of his character. But, to paraphrase Elkins, the point here is that she keeps a hard nose towards him. She obviously has quite a bit of affection for the blighter, the way Dumbledore does. Well, well, well. I see a massive Percy post is needed. A post to prove to you that JKR likes Percy a great deal. But for this... > So the point of having Percy splash out to > check on Ron is to show just how scary the second task was -- not to > show the reader that Percy is a great guy and all. SCARY? You think JKR wanted to show the second task as scary? And all that time it was playing out as farce? From Percy chewing Harry out, to Viktor's botched shark transformation, to Harry's antics in the lake, to Ron chewing out Harry. And then JKR added a white-faced Percy running into the lake because it was SCARY? Nevermind, the fact that the Percy scene is hilarious in itself on more than one level. (I'd be very disturbed if I were Viktor or Cedric to see the judge running out to meet one of the hostages and one of the champions, who happen to be the judge's brother and best friend.) But you say, it's supposed to have us all shaking in our shoes on Harry's behalf. And then you repeat that old accusation of Superfluous!Percy. I blew Superfluous!Percy out of the water about two months ago, and you said you'd be right back with a defense, and you NEVER did! I showed exactly why Percy is key to the books, and you didn't adress a single point. So, let's not have anymore of Superfluous!Percy, unless you plan to answer Post 44800. Eileen From mn_emily at hotmail.com Thu Nov 7 17:26:35 2002 From: mn_emily at hotmail.com (Emily F) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 11:26:35 -0600 Subject: GOF: Some things cleared up by reading... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46262 Julie said: "I'm not quite sure that I agree with this. I think this was the end of another school year when he was expelled, and I think the former headmaster probably quit then (or may have been asked to leave by the board, not sure there), and Dumbledore became headmaster. Therefore I think what would have been the *4th* year for Hagrid was his first year as Gamekeeper. *snip* *Reference to PS/SS pg. 59* That little quote seems to me to mean *stay on* as in, no going to find a new home because daddy is dead and he has no home, Hogwarts became his home. He's expelled, yet stays. So I'm leaning towards end of school year here . . . " I say: Well, if we assume that Dumbledore the Headmaster appointed Hagrid, then we can guess at which point Hagrid became gamekeeper. From PoA, QP pg. 353, "Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs": "'It seemed impossible that I would able to come to Hogwarts. . . But then Dumbledore became Headmaster, and he was sympathetic...'" So Dumbledore became Headmaster in between Lupin being bitten (or receiving the bite, however one chooses to say it :-)) and Lupin starting at Hogwarts. I suppose we don't know for a fact that Lupin started when he was 11, but we have no reason to assume otherwise. Looking at the 1 child vs. 7 children scenario (children's ages aside!), it's fair to say that Molly and Arthur have a good 10+ years on James and Lily. Therefore, Hagrid probably wasn't at Hogwarts when Molly and Arthur were there. And if you ever doubt Hagrid's ability to say what he doesn't mean, I'll remind you of the infamous: "'There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin.'" Emily _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Nov 7 18:28:08 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:28:08 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Guy Fawkes day Message-ID: <103.1ec91520.2afc0ab8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46263 In a message dated 07/11/2002 16:30:18 GMT Standard Time, tiara_askew at yahoo.com writes: > > > I'm new here, so I don't know if this has been discussed before, but > the connection of Fawkes the phoenix and Guy Fawkes is one that has > troubled me for some time. The bonfire similarity to the phoenix > rising from the ashes seems pretty clear - the troubling part is that > Guy Fawkes was a traitor. > Hi there! Cool name! Barb's answered pretty thoroughly on this. I'd just add that there aren't exact parallels here. Yes, poor Guy Fawkes was horribly executed as a traitor, but he himself wasn't burned (although I have no idea what they did with his body). These days we do burn effigies of Guy Fawkes (or the Pope, I believe, is a traditional alternative, still unfortunately used in some vehemently Protestant parts), but they don't rise from the ashes. In other words, I think JKR's just playing in naming Dumbledore's phoenix Fawkes. I don't see that you can take the symbolism too far. Eloise A (not RC) Guy Fawkes sympathiser who absolutely hates the symbolism of burning Guys and whose six-year old's after-school club decided to make a Dobby instead this year - children's decision - as they don't really care who they burn, they just like making them. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Nov 7 18:48:00 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 18:48:00 -0000 Subject: Vampires / Immortality / Creature repression In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46264 Ellen : --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > > Ah, but vampires are classified as *non-wizard*...if that means > that people who become vampires lose their magic, Voldemort > may not be able to compensate for that. > > It would also go a long way to explain the great fear of vampires > among the wizard folk. Would creatures which have no > non-magical phase, such as Centaurs, die from the bite rather > than becoming immortal? > Ellen: >>Do you mean no magical abilities? (Centaurs?) I'm not sure they have no magical abilities- they certainly seem to have carried magic to a higher plane than wizards have....<< Me: Hm...I seem to have expressed myself in my usual muddled fashion. The source material is muddled, too. The classifications are biological in origin but political in application--not unlike the US, where by law a tomato is not a fruit. I was trying to say that I think *all* Centaurs have magical abilities. I think magic is intrinsic to their existence, unlike, say, humans or owls. Going on the non-canonic but popular convention that new vampires have hardly any magic, a Centaur who was drained of its magic by a vampire could not become a vampire itself but would die. All part-human races must be magical since they are all hidden from Muggles, so "wizard" in the phrase "non-wizard part-human" must distinguish not between magical and non-magical part-humans, but between those that may use wands and those that may not. What we don't know is what determines the difference: probably some part-humans are capable of using wands but are legally forbidden to do so, while others don't use wands because they have powerful magic of their own and/or because wands don't work for them. I'd guess vampires fall into the latter category. So what I was trying to say is that if Voldemort became a vampire, he might be drained of wizard magic and have to start all over at the beginning to acquire vampire magic, which might take hundreds of years. I'm guessing that wouldn't appeal to him. I suspect that the Code of Wand use applies equally to all non-humans in the same way that the law forbids both rich and poor to sleep under bridges. There must be some drawbacks to wand use we haven't been told about yet. Why are most wizard families so small, and why did Ron say that if wizards hadn't married Muggles they'd have died out? Pippin From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu Nov 7 19:03:44 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:03:44 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Muggle Protection Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46265 Muggle Protection (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Revolution_ by none other than the Beatles) Listen to it here: http://www.geocities.com/michellesrockinatoz/RealAudio.html Dedicated to Eileen Lucky_Kari...this one's for you! Arthur Weasley (with an Attitude): I'm pushing for Muggle protection Well you know It's 'bout time we changed things 'round You say the law needs no correction Well you know Let me tell you what I've found When I see wizards abusing Muggles I just have to put a stop to it Because you know I gotta do what's right What's right, what's right You think pure-blood is the perfection Well you know I am not playing along You treat Muggles like an infection Well you know That thinking is just plain wrong But when you've got money and think that because you're rich You can control every wizard and witch Don't you know I've gotta do what's right What's right, what's right You say that you have an objection Well you know We all have our point of view You talk about natural selection Well you know I don't want to argue with you But when you go wearing tattoos with snakes and skulls All I can say, Lucius, is go to hell 'Cause you know that I gotta do what's right What's right, what's right -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 20:03:26 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 20:03:26 -0000 Subject: Will Harry go to Egypt in OoTP? (was: Doomed, they're doomed!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46266 qaztroc wrote: > Remember when JKR said that Harry would go to some place > that was mentioned previously in the books but that he > hasn't visited yet? Most of us assumed that it would > be Azkhaban or the MoM. But what if this were Egypt and > those pyramids, or ancient tombs, where the Weasleys > went on vacation? Or was it really a vacation? Now me: I hate to be a nit-pick, but JKR was referring to a room at Hogwarts, not a different country. Here's the exact interchange (http://www.comicrelief.com/harrysbooks/pages/transcript2.shtml): Q: If you could travel to Hogwarts for an hour, what would you do there? JKR: Go straight into a certain room, mentioned in book four which has certain magical properties Harry hasn't discovered yet! Nonetheless, this gives me a forum to ask a question that's been bugging me - in PS/SS, Bill is said to be working in Africa, while in the rest of the books it's Egypt. Are we to assume that he changed locales afer PS/SS, or do you think it's a flint? ~Phyllis From msbonsai at mninter.net Thu Nov 7 20:14:08 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 20:14:08 -0000 Subject: The Secret Room at Hogwarts :was: Will Harry go to Egypt in OoTP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46267 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: Phyllis > I hate to be a nit-pick, but JKR was referring to a room at Hogwarts, > not a different country. > JKR: Go straight into a certain room, mentioned in book four which > has certain magical properties Harry hasn't discovered yet! > Ok, I HAVE IT!!!!!! Dumbledore mentioned it . . . GOF p 417 - 418: "Oh I would never dream of assuming I know all Hogwarts' secrets, Igor," said Dumbledore amicably. "Only this morning, for instance, I took a wrong turning on the way to the bathroom and found myself in a beautifully proportioned room I have never seen before, containing a really rather magnificent collection of chamber pots. When I went back to investigate more closely, I discovered that the room had vanished. But I must keep an eye out for it. Possibly it is only accessible at five-thirty in the morning. Or it may only appear at the quarter moon -- or when the seeker has an exceptionally full bladder." Ok, and seeing as he went back to look for it, we can almost assume he went to find his own bathroom, then used it, then went back to look for all those "chamber pots" which who knows? Maybe they're not really chamber pots ;o) but some sort of pots/vases which contain something much much more??? Anyone care to agree/disagree with me here? Julie Phyllis: > Nonetheless, this gives me a forum to ask a question that's been > bugging me - in PS/SS, Bill is said to be working in Africa, while in > the rest of the books it's Egypt. Are we to assume that he changed > locales afer PS/SS, or do you think it's a flint? > > ~Phyllis Me: Pretty close local don't you think? I'm sure it's all related and nothing to worry about :o) Julie From jdumas at kingwoodcable.com Thu Nov 7 20:18:17 2002 From: jdumas at kingwoodcable.com (Katze) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 14:18:17 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Will Harry go to Egypt in OoTP? (was: Doomed, they're doomed!) References: Message-ID: <3DCACA89.5030602@kingwoodcable.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46268 erisedstraeh2002 wrote: > > Now me: > > I hate to be a nit-pick, but JKR was referring to a room at Hogwarts, > not a different country. > > Here's the exact interchange > (http://www.comicrelief.com/harrysbooks/pages/transcript2.shtml): > > Q: If you could travel to Hogwarts for an hour, what would you do > there? > > JKR: Go straight into a certain room, mentioned in book four which > has certain magical properties Harry hasn't discovered yet! Rowling did make the comment you quoted above, but she also made this comment: "In book 5, we go into a whole new area, physically, an area you've never seen before, a magical world" You can find this in this Entertainment Weekly interview: http://www.ew.com/ew/daily/0,2514,3590,00.html I've often thought we'd go see Azkaban, but I'm not sure if we've seen it before or not. Harry hasn't seen, but it has been described. I wonder if Rowling is going to take us somewhere that has never been mentioned. I would love to go see Durmstrang though. I find that concept fascinating. Take care Katze From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Nov 7 20:25:46 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 20:25:46 -0000 Subject: Will Harry go to Egypt in OoTP? (was: Doomed, they're doomed!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46269 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > I hate to be a nit-pick, but JKR was referring to a room at Hogwarts, > not a different country. > JKR has also mentioned that Harry would be visiting other magical worlds in book 5-I do not think this was the same interview in which she referred to an undiscovered room in Hogwarts-however, there could be some connection between the two. When looking for references to Egypt, I discovered in PoA, the letter Ron writes to Harry describing the family's trip to Egypt. In this letter he refers to "ancient Egyptian wizards", something Hermione tells Harry in another letter she is very interested in learning about. JKR has also stated that Harry would learn more about death. As mentioned in a previous post, the ancient Egyptians were certainly preoccupied with death and the after world; hence, their development of the mummification process. IMO, I think a trip to Egypt will be forthcoming for Harry if not in book 5 than later. IMO, there's some things about Fawkes we have yet to discover-and the answers may be in Egypt. bugaloo37 From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 20:47:37 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 20:47:37 -0000 Subject: The Secret Room at Hogwarts (Was: Will Harry go to Egypt in OoTP?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46270 Julie ("jastrangfeld") wrote: > Maybe they're not really chamber pots ;o) but some sort of > pots/vases which contain something much much more??? > Now me: I think the secret room at Hogwarts is the chamber pot room, too. I offered the following theory in post #42944: What if a witch or wizard could summon the chamber pot room when she/he has an urgent need to return to Hogwarts? Hermione tells us over and over again that you can't Apparate within the Hogwarts grounds, which has led to speculation about how Dumbledore got back to Hogwarts so quickly to help Harry after he encounters Quirrellmort in PS/SS. Perhaps the chamber pot room can be summoned in times of great need to return to Hogwarts quickly (sort of like a portkey). This would also concur with Eloise's latin derivation of "mentioned" as meaning "thought of" - when you think of the room, you find yourself there! ~Phyllis From msbonsai at mninter.net Thu Nov 7 21:04:42 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 21:04:42 -0000 Subject: The Secret Room at Hogwarts (Was: Will Harry go to Egypt in OoTP?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46271 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > I think the secret room at Hogwarts is the chamber pot room, too. I > offered the following theory in post #42944: > This would also concur with Eloise's latin derivation of "mentioned" > as meaning "thought of" - when you think of the room, you find > yourself there! > > ~Phyllis The only question I have about that then, is Dumbledore was not specifically thinking of this room, he was looking for his bathroom. However, 1/2 awake first thing in the morning, maybe he was 1/2 dreaming about such a wonderful idea that room would be, and therefore *thought* of it and found it? Being that it's mentioned as being *chamber* pots . . . it could be as old as the original bathrooms of the place. On the other hand, a lot of old pottery can be sizeable enough to look like *chamber* pots. Perhaps there is still some connection with Egypt? Julie From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Nov 7 21:09:28 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:09:28 -0800 Subject: Harry, the lone hero? Message-ID: <6972317876.20021107130928@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46272 I've been reading all the opinions about who will definitely die in the next 3 books, and it seems to come down to stripping Harry of most, if not all of his support, so he'll have to rely on just himself and face Voldemort on his own, fulfilling his destiny. While this is certainly a possibility, I am hoping for JKR to take a different route, not the old, established "lone hero" path. Why not have it be Harry and his friends, finding a way to defeat Voldemort together somehow? I wouldn't mind Dumbledore, the mentor, being still alive at the end, either . Okay, so I *like* happy endings, and my main reason for reading HP is the friendship theme. Harry, Ron and Hermione all have different strengths and shortcomings, and I really don't want Harry to find out he doesn't need any help after all, and has all the powers he needs in himself. I'd love to see him learn that it's okay to accept other people's help and that a team can accomplish more than a single person most of the time. While Harry would feel tremendously guilty if anyone got hurt or killed, trying to help him, he needs to realize that his friends would also feel terrible, if *Harry* got hurt because he didn't let them help. The chance that JKR will choose this theme are probably not all that great, but I'd truly welcome it. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Nov 7 21:18:52 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 21:18:52 -0000 Subject: Harry, the lone hero? In-Reply-To: <6972317876.20021107130928@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46273 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Susanne wrote: > I've been reading all the opinions about who will definitely > die in the next 3 books, and it seems to come down to > stripping Harry of most, if not all of his support, so he'll > have to rely on just himself and face Voldemort on his own, > fulfilling his destiny. > Why not have it be Harry and his friends, finding a way to > defeat Voldemort together somehow? > I completely agree with you. One of the messages during the first four books is, that they must work together to suceed. Harry's real strength are his friends. Without Ron and Hermione, he never would have been able to stop Quirrell, without the help of Hagrid, Hermione, Dobby, Cedric and even Moaning Myrtle he wouldn't have suceed during the first two tasks of the tzriwzard tournament. It would be kinda dissapointing, if Harry must do the final battle all alone. I more expect that everyone of his friends uses his personal strength to help Harry. Hickengruendler From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Nov 7 21:40:52 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:40:52 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Will Harry go to Egypt in OoTP? (was: Doomed, they're... Message-ID: <7a.305a64ce.2afc37e4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46274 In a message dated 07/11/2002 20:05:50 GMT Standard Time, erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com writes: > Nonetheless, this gives me a forum to ask a question that's been > bugging me - in PS/SS, Bill is said to be working in Africa, while in > the rest of the books it's Egypt. Are we to assume that he changed > locales afer PS/SS, or do you think it's a flint? > Neither. According to my understanding of geography, Egypt is in North West Africa. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 21:44:21 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 21:44:21 -0000 Subject: Hermione *must* be able to fly well because . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46275 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "amberhillcrest" > wrote: > > Here is another question--Even if we assume that Hermione has been > taught to fly, who is to say that she is any good at it? > > > > > > -Maureen Amber > > Me here: > > Ok, so they're taking a class. Hermione gets what, TOP MARKS at > Hogwarts. I don't believe she could be getting top marks without > getting top marks in flying/Madam Hooch's class as well. > > Just my opinion . . . > > Julie bboy_mn adds: Just a quick reminder of The Chamber of the Flying Keys (SS/PS). All three of our heroes flew around the chamber trying to chase down the key to the door of the next chamber, and every indication is that they all flew well. There is no reason to think that Hermione can't fly anymore than there is reason to think Dean Thomas can't fly. I think the original poster who started this train of thought was simply trying to say that we don't see Hermione engaged in many activities other than going to the library. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 21:51:50 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 21:51:50 -0000 Subject: New Magical World (WAS: Will Harry go to Egypt in OoTP?) In-Reply-To: <3DCACA89.5030602@kingwoodcable.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46276 Katze wrote: > Rowling did make the comment you quoted above, but she also made > this comment: > > "In book 5, we go into a whole new area, physically, an area you've > never seen before, a magical world" > > You can find this in this Entertainment Weekly interview: > http://www.ew.com/ew/daily/0,2514,3590,00.html > > I've often thought we'd go see Azkaban, but I'm not sure if we've > seen it before or not. Harry hasn't seen, but it has been > described. I wonder if Rowling is going to take us somewhere that > has never been mentioned. I would love to go see Durmstrang though. > I find that concept fascinating. Now me: Thanks for reminding me about that interview - I had read it before, but wasn't making the connection. It seems to me that "a magical world" wouldn't be another country (like Egypt). This sounds more like a Diagon Alley or a Platform 9 and 3/4 concept to me. And if she said we've never seen it before, I would take that to mean that it hasn't been mentioned in the books yet. JKR has also said that Voldemort's first goal is European domination, with the rest of the world following. So a change of locale to Egypt may well happen, but if it does, it probably won't be in Book 5. ~Phyllis From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Nov 7 22:26:04 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 22:26:04 -0000 Subject: New Magical World (WAS: Will Harry go to Egypt in OoTP?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46277 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > > JKR has also said that Voldemort's first goal is European domination, > with the rest of the world following. So a change of locale to Egypt > may well happen, but if it does, it probably won't be in Book 5. > Thanks for the above JKR statement- I had not heard that Voldemort's first goal was European domination. IMO, Voldemort has another goal- one that he has been working on for some time, according to himself, prior to his failed attempt to kill Harry-immortality. I can certainly see how one goal can be connected to the other. IMO, Voldemort has a lot in common with the ancient Egyptians-who were also very interested in the concept of immortality. Perhaps, and this of course is just a guess, the next step following the regaining of a human body involves something that can only be found in Eqypt- something to do with the phoenix. IMO, Voldemort's greatest fear is death and what follows after death;hence, his fanatical obsession with immortality. I believe the following ideas are too closely connected to be coincidental: 1) the title of book 5-the Order of the Phoenix; 2) the Egypt-Phoenix connection; 3)Phoenix-Egyptian symbol of immortality; 4) references to ancient Egyptian wizards in PoA; 5) Voldemort's obsession with immortality/desire to rule Europe. And also, Bill Weasley is already in Egypt-could he be considered a "special fan" of Harry's? Up to book 4, we had never met Bill Weasley-now suddenly, here he is-coincidence? IMO, I just do not think so. bugaloo37 From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 22:29:01 2002 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 22:29:01 -0000 Subject: Will Harry go to Egypt in OoTP? (was: Doomed, they're doomed!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46278 > Nonetheless, this gives me a forum to ask a question that's been > bugging me - in PS/SS, Bill is said to be working in Africa, while in > the rest of the books it's Egypt. Are we to assume that he changed > locales afer PS/SS, or do you think it's a flint? > > ~Phyllis me: Egypt is a country in Africa. -Ing From Audra1976 at aol.com Thu Nov 7 22:29:25 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 17:29:25 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: is petunia dursley a squib? Message-ID: <19b.b7afbb0.2afc4345@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46279 In a message dated 11/4/02, chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (Vinnia) writes: << I agree that Petunia is not a squib, because Rowling said that Lily is a muggle born. However, I think that Petunia is a witch. A witch that chose not to develop her magical ability. >> Possibly, and obviously there is magic somewhere in the Evans DNA, so it is possible that Dudley have magic potential. All Harry's life the Dursleys were strict and abusive to Harry, hoping to stamp the magic ability out of him. That didn't work. Harry's magic came through in times of need and resentment, such as making the glass disappear so his cousin fell into the snake exhibit. Dudley, on the other hand, was given everything he wanted. Perhaps this treatment was actually more effective in squelching the magic ability, because there was never a need to use it. How ironic if to achieve the ends they wanted, the Dursleys should have spoiled Harry rotten! --Audra From skelkins at attbi.com Thu Nov 7 23:10:10 2002 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 23:10:10 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Weekly Chat Returning To Old Location Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46280 Elkins edges around the tottering pile of crates and boxes, leaps out of the path of the two grunting workmen carrying the sofa, ducks to avoid being brained by the grand piano that someone has apparently decided to move by recourse to Wingardium Leviosa, and wrings her hands helplessly. "Oh," she breathes. "Oh, *do* be careful of that soap box! It's *fragile!*" ------- Hi, HPFGUers. Well, we found that we missed the old decor, not to mention that location, location, location! So starting this Sunday, our weekly chat is going to be moving back to its previous home in Yahoo Chat Room HP:1. Our weekly Sunday chat starts at around 7 pm GMT (that's 2 pm for those of you on the East coast of the US, 11 am for those of you on that Other Coast), and lasts until people get tired, usually for around four hours but sometimes even longer than that. There's no need to stay on-topic in chat: people can and do talk about whatever crosses their mind. It can be a fun way to meet people in a somewhat different context than the lists, so why not stop by and say hello? To get there, do this: Go to any Yahoo Chat Room, for example, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/chat Then type "/join hp:1" (without the quotation marks). If the room looks empty, stick around for a little while. Sometimes people arrive fashionably late. Now that we've moved back to the old room, you can also once more use CheetaChat (for PCs) or miChat (for Macs). Upgrades for these programs can be found at www.versiontracker.com. If you have any problems negotiating your way around chat, please feel free to contact the mods at mods at hpfgu.org.uk. We look forward to seeing you there! Elkins, for the Mods From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Nov 7 23:57:22 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:57:22 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Will Harry go to Egypt in OoTP? (was: Doomed, they're doomed!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2081144318.20021107155722@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46281 Thursday, November 7, 2002, 2:29:01 PM, ingachristsuperstar wrote: i> Egypt is a country in Africa. I think many of us tend not to think of Egypt as Africa because we're inundated with media stereotypes associating Africa with Tarzan, etc. -- Dave (Who remembers the "Africa is *not* all jungle" spot on _Sesame Street_ many years ago) From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Nov 8 00:10:50 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 00:10:50 -0000 Subject: Magical History Bore (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46282 Magical History Bore Dedicated to Lilac (as she is about to join the august company of Fab Four Filkers) To the tune of Magical Mystery Tour by the ? hmm, the name of the group's on the tip of my tongue Hear the original at: http://www.geocities.com/michellesrockinatoz/RealAudio.html THE SCENE: History of Magic class. Students mourn (not very deeply, though ) the sudden death of the History of Magic professor, BINNS. As the await the arrival of their new substitute, the ghost of BINNS make his first appearance as walks through the blackboard BINNS Rise up, rise up as the History bore. Rise up, rise up as the History bore. Rise up for I'm an apparition, Rise up as the History bore. Rise up I'll speak sans intermission Rise up as the History bore. The Magical History bore is going to talk here all day Going to talk here all day Rise up, rise up as the History bore. Rise up, rise up as the History bore. Rise up I'll give you dreary things to read, rise up as the History bore. Rise up stupefaction guaranteed, rise up as the History bore. The Magical History bore is wanting to talk here all day Wanting to talk here all day Rise up, rise up as the History bore. Rise up, rise up as the History bore. Rise up as a new emanation, rise up as the History bore. Rise up for massive annotation, rise up as the History bore. The Magical History bore, for dying won't take me away, Dying won't take me away, take me away (Binns launches into a lecture about the 11th Century Goblin fiscal policy and taxation reform which lulls everyone into a deep slumber) - CMC (I love history, myself) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 00:15:40 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 00:15:40 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Wand + Ron's In-Reply-To: <20021107165122.11922.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46283 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Anne wrote: >Anne wrote: > > On to a separate theory about Hagrid's wand, which > seems to work much better than Ron's less-damaged one > did in CoS. Do you suppose Dumbledore secretly > repaired it for him back when he got him the > groundskeeper's job? ...snip... > > Great man, Dumbledore. > > Anne bboy_mn adds his thoughts: I've always been very suspicious of Hargid's wand/unbrella. I have to wonder if the wand is ever broken. Perhaps Dumbledore help him substitute a wand for the wand snapping ceremony, and kept his original wand safe, or perhaps it was snapped and repaired. I think in the not too distant future, at least in Harry Potter time, although probably not in JKR time, we fill find out the truth about Hagrid's wand. If Ministry and the school had been as despate for the truth as they were for it all to end, I'm sure they would have all seen that Hagrid couldn't possible have opened the Chamber. Although, I think Dumbledore saw this very clearly, and told Hagrid to just play along and the he would take care of him. Great man Dumbledore. A little strange, but great. Which brings us to Ron's wand. I think Ron's wand could have been repaired to make it sufficiently function for him to work in class. So why didn't they fix it? Because he never asked. It's one of those 'life lessons' teachers like to give us. I also think Ron could have done something to improve the looks of his shabby formal robes, but again, he never bothered to ask anyone. Back to Hagrid again, regardless of what the story tells us, I have never believed that Hagrid's wand was truly snapped. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From msbonsai at mninter.net Fri Nov 8 00:28:04 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 00:28:04 -0000 Subject: Dudley the pig Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46284 Ok, so Hagrid meant to turn Dudley into a pig, but he said the spell didn't work properly (according to Hagrid anyway) when Dudley only grew a pig's tail. Now, Dudley was a bit *piggy* as it was, but the Dursley's only had his tail removed by the muggles. I am thinking that maybe that spell didn't go quite as bad as Hagrid thought it did, and that Dudley is slowly turning into a big fat pig :o) What are the odds that he'll start growing sow's ears . . . ? Julie ;o) From hyperpuppy at clarityconnect.com Thu Nov 7 18:00:17 2002 From: hyperpuppy at clarityconnect.com (Joyce) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 13:00:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Enabling the Slyths: Redeemable Draco In-Reply-To: <001401c28659$9fe82e00$3a3b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20021107125809.00a4fbd0@mail.clarityconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46285 At 07:31 AM 07-11-02, Debbie wrote: > >who, contrary to popular opinion, has Draco on the short list of >characters least likely to die; Lucius, on the other hand, is >Dead!Dead!Dead! (but not till book 7) If this stays true to literary form, it will be a Weasley that does Lucious in. And, perhaps Ron that takes care of Draco. Hey, I am pretty psyched to see it. :o) J- From Dionysos at Dionysia.org Thu Nov 7 19:01:44 2002 From: Dionysos at Dionysia.org (Dan Delaney) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 14:01:44 -0500 Subject: The Phoenix myth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5BD59B3A-F283-11D6-9D6F-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> No: HPFGUIDX 46286 bugaloo37 wrote: > Here is a recent discovery I made concerning the origin of the > Phoenix myth. Yes-the word Phoenix is of Greek origin but > guess what -the concept of the phoenix is-you guessed it Egyptian. In case anyone is interested. The following link is the result of research I did four and a half years ago on the Phoenix myth, when my first son (Phoenix) was born. http://www.Dionysia.org/phoenix/thenaming.html Enjoy. --Dan From bloubet at incanmonkey.com Thu Nov 7 22:00:48 2002 From: bloubet at incanmonkey.com (Beth Loubet) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:00:48 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Egypt, the Bible, and Harry's right arm References: <1036686678.6173.76397.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <005901c286a9$246ca490$7001a8c0@bloubetdellpc> No: HPFGUIDX 46287 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > > Something else about Bill Weasley needs to be remembered-he works in > Egypt ( remember the Weasleys went to visit him in PoA). What > difference does that make -you might ask. Here is a recent discovery > I made concerning the origin of the Phoenix myth. Yes-the word > Phoenix is of Greek origin but guess what -the concept of the phoenix > is-you guessed it Egyptian. As everyone knows the Egyptians were > obsessed with immortality-a bird that can rise from the ashes-reborn- > would be right up there alley What better place for Voldemort to > head for than Eqypt in his quest for immortality-and if Bill just > happens to be there already-look out!! > > bugaloo37 From: "qaztroc" >>Well, bugaloo37 may have something here! Remember when JKR said that Harry would go to some place that was mentioned previously in the books but that he hasn't visited yet? Most of us assumed that it would be Azkhaban or the MoM. But what if this were Egypt and those pyramids, or ancient tombs, where the Weasleys went on vacation? Or was it really a vacation? That would fit in nicely with the Egyptian connection suggested in the title. That would also suggest that Bill would be an important character in book 5 (and that he might indeed be the one to suffer a "bad death"). Any thoughts? -- qaztroc>> A couple. As long as we're tying this to Biblical references, bringing in Egypt makes perfect sense. *grin* Even better -- isn't one of the pre-registered titles for future books _Harry_Potter_and_the_Pyramid_of_(can't remember and don't have the list at work)? We really have no idea (as far as I can remember...) exactly what Bill is doing down there. Something for Gringott's. Voldemort's crew have already messed with Gringott's once (getting past their defenses to try to steal the PS), and the goblins don't seem to be very forgiving creatures. I don't think they'd take very kindly to someone from LV's disciples messing with them again, and Bill could very well be drawn directly into the line of fire. (I'm making an assumption here that something that Voldemort will need or want in Egypt is being guarded/held by the Bank.) OTOH, I would expect the main Egyptian plotline to show up in the Pyramid book. We may indeed get an inkling in HP5 of how important Egypt is to the equation, but I'm thinking any actual travel there (and any great possibility of losing Bill) would probably be in a later book. Again returning to Biblical references (and LOTR, and other high fantasy), I have no problem seeing Dumbledore as the important death in HP5, only to return even more powerful in HP6. He has, after all, just sent off one of his disciples to the enemy, telling him to do what he must do... (And this death-and-rebirth identifies Dumbledore even more strongly with Fawkes, the phoenix, named after a "traitor". A "Judas", if you will.) Since Dumbledore knows of "other ways" that Voldemort can come back, why not use one of them himself? And, possibly, in so doing, become a member of the "Order of the Phoenix", an order that Voldemort desperately wants to join. The repeated loss of use of Harry's right arm may be no more than coincidence. Or it could signal that his wand arm is just the most logical target. It could also foreshadow the loss of Harry's "right-hand man" (which could be either Ron or Hermione, IMHO). Or it could be foreshadowing that Harry will have to defeat LV in the long run WITHOUT that right arm. (His wand? His magic? His friends? All three?) I do have one very long-term bet. I think we'll continue to lose DADA teachers each year (including Arabella Figg and, possibly, Snape) until Harry graduates and takes up the post. All just speculation, and IMHO, of course, but what fun! I'm so glad that I found you all. *grin* bel From historygrrl1 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 00:33:10 2002 From: historygrrl1 at yahoo.com (historygrrl1) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 00:33:10 -0000 Subject: Weasley Economics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46288 > Me again: > Considering the big deal made in the books about the Weasley's economic > situation, I reall doubt JKR would leave out an important point like "Oh, > Molly works too but it's still not enough." > Maybe JKR she took it for granted that readers would understand that after 5+ years of letting her resume and qualifications go rusty, Molly would have difficulty pulling down a salary substantial enough to ease the economic burdens of a family with 5 children in school at once. Or maybe she assumed that any family with so many children in school would be facing economic difficultiies regardless of the parents' combined earnings, and so she didn't bother to go in to the details. Alternatively, maybe she left it out because the books represent the kids POV, and, not being there when Molly is working for wages, the Weasely kids don't think of it much. Or maybe Molly doesn't want to worry the kids, and so they don't know. Or maybe Molly values her unpaid work in her family's home enough that she genuinely feels that taking on a paid job would detract too much of her time and energy from that arena. The Weasleys are poor, but they always somehow manage to scrape by. In another 4 years, all the kids will be out of school. Maybe she (and Arthur) see the economic difficulties as short term and liveable. Molly and Arthur never complain. In fact, most of the complaining is done by Ron. His other brothers don't seem to worry nearly as much. And maybe, in a way, JKR has already told us that Molly works. In book 2, when Harry arrives at the Burrow, Molly is feeding chickens. Maybe Molly is saving on the housekeeping by raising food herself. Reducing the grocery bills by eating homegrown poultry would be a huge contribution to a family that size, even if it doesn't increase the supply of available cash. And there must have been some reason Molly didn't go to the Quidditch World Cup with everyone else, even if it wasn't explained to us, the readers. So between the enormous amount of work that would go into laundry and cooking during the summers, knitting, raising chickens, and maintaining the house and garden year round, I think Molly makes HUGE contributions to her family's economic well-being regardless of her earnings. And in a family that size with so many in school, it's hard to imagine how they could ever earn enough to be comfortable. -Historygrrl1 From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri Nov 8 02:04:56 2002 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 02:04:56 -0000 Subject: Everybody Dies! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46289 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Meggers S." wrote: I > still say everyone dieing in book 7 would leave a horrible taste in my mouth > so to speak. I think JKR is better than that. Yes, and to me, it would also be a cop-out. Just as having Harry wake up and say to himself, "Whoa, what a weird dream I had!!" It's almost too neat, in a way, and life isn't like that. Good things happen and bad things happen, and sometimes the bad stuff happens to good people and the bad people get away with their crimes. Life is like that - it can't be neatly wrapped up. I want to think that, at the end of the 7th book, we will still have characters to discuss - how they made it through the dark days, did it change them, how will they cope going forward? Having the series end with "and they all died, as Harry felt the burning in his scar." will leave me very disappointed. Marianne, who gets comfort out of thinking that there are fictional characters who live forever.... From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Nov 8 03:23:45 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:23:45 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Everybody Dies! biblically?/ Who Lives? References: Message-ID: <011301c286d6$3fba6a20$529dcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 46290 > Is the antichrist not suppose to die in some form and come back? That fits Voldemort's situation pretty much. > Chris Mmm, interesting. And that's when the world is to accept the antichrist, when he died and came back alive. So is the WW going to more widely accept Voldemort? Are more "good guys" going to turn away now that Voldemort has "risen?" Now, about "everybody dying." No, everybody can't die. But we can make a case for pretty much everybody to die! JKR did say there would be deaths. Many deaths. I'm thinking this points more toward books 6 and 7 as Cedric's death ended GoF thus began the deaths. At least one death *has* to occur in Book 5, as we know. I'm starting to lean more toward one prominent character's death and one lesser character's death. Something like Hagrid and Dennis Creevey. Poor kid, think about it, why else is he there? A token brother, sort of like the token security guard on Star Trek. Doomed. Anyway, I'd like to start a list of who will live in the end. Here goes: Harry Potter (dies but lives anyway, so he can go on both lists!) Minerva McGonagall Severus Snape Hermione Granger Sirius Black George Weasley Molly Weasley Arthur Weasley Charlie Weasley Percy Weasley Various others will live as well, but those are the prominents. Which leaves, what, four dead Weasleys? Maybe too many, I don't know for sure on that one. Anyone else want to add to/ take away from the list? Richelle From sharronpowell at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 04:44:10 2002 From: sharronpowell at yahoo.com (Sharron Powell) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 04:44:10 -0000 Subject: Weasley Economics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46291 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "historygrrl1" wrote: > Or maybe Molly values her unpaid work in her family's home enough > that she genuinely feels that taking on a paid job would detract too much of her time and energy from that arena. ... Molly and Arthur > never complain. In fact, most of the complaining is done by Ron. > His other brothers don't seem to worry nearly as much. I agree with this completely. I just don't see why we are tyring to justify Molly working or not working. The Weasley's are not poor in what matters. The Malfoys have all the money in the world; but what good does it do them? What good do they do with it? Molly and Arthur provide a loving home, they love what they do, and they share what they have. (When the Weasleys do get money... they share it among themselves and spend it on others... people like that will never be rich; even if Molly worked, I bet any money would be gone :-) I think that this is a concept that is important for kids to know in the materialistic culture that we live in; and I'm glad that JKR has put such a family in the books. [The emphasis on the lack of family funds comes from Ron. An understandable feeling for a 13 year old boy who wants to be like everyone else (or better). Understandable, but that doesn't mean that his opinion tells the whole story. I'm sure that in his heart of hearts (and/or as he gets older) he will see that he would never trade all Harry's gold for the love of his family.] Sharron From Malady579 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 8 04:49:31 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 04:49:31 -0000 Subject: anti-christ!Voldie (was: Everybody Dies! biblically?) In-Reply-To: <011301c286d6$3fba6a20$529dcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46292 Chris asked: >Is the antichrist not suppose to die in some form and come back? >That fits Voldemort's situation pretty much. Richelle answered: >Mmm, interesting. And that's when the world is to accept the >antichrist,when he died and came back alive. So is the WW going to >more widely accept Voldemort? Are more "good guys" going to turn >away now that Voldemort has "risen?" This concept annoys me. The idea of Voldemort as a play on the anti-christ just does not sit well. I guess don't like the idea because it implies if Voldie is the anti-christ then Harry is Jesus, and that thought annoys me more. Yet, anti-christ Voldie does pattern well. To the WW, Voldemort was dead. They lifted their glasses, donned their festive celebration cloaks, and partied like it was 1999. So to them, end-of-GoF Voldemort has risen again. Still, Voldemort? An anti-christ? And anti-christ is a false prophet that hypnotizes the world to believe he is the savior of the world. His goal, of course, is global domination, so Voldie does manage to work that angle, but the anti-christ lulls the world into believing he is the answer to all their problems. Voldemort does not seem to be setting up any sort of mass brainwashing to bend the WW to his favor. He has his few followers and is working to subdue or destroy, whichever really is most convenient, everyone else. Yet, that is pre-resurrected Voldie. I still hate to call it a resurrection. To resurrect someone, they must be dead first. Voldie never died. Fawkes dies. That bird has no life left in him and then is born again in his ashes. Dead then alive. Voldie is a semi-odd state of being of not really ghost not really a shadow that gets a body. No resurrection. Just rebodiment. But to the regular Mom and Pop wizard, Voldie was dead, so lets looks at it from their perspective. This really evil wizard and his gang of evil sounding death-eaters goes around terrorizing all for ten years. Ak'ing the dog. Torturing the cat cross-eyed. Imperiusing the gold fish to swim backwards. No one knows what to do, everything is breaking down -- when out of the heavens comes the strangest thing of all. This dark evil wizard is gone. Seemingly forever. Merriment and laughter is heard again in the streets, all is brought to good. Goldfish start swimming straight. The cat is still grumpy, but hey, you can't win them all. Basically, they can all become complacent again. So now that Voldemort has seemingly "resurrected" from the grave, somewhat literally [hey, never saw that before], will Mom and Pop wizard be amazed by the wonder? Will they enter the streets and say, "Hey, he is ever so powerful. I think he should be our leader. Our god. No one can resurrect themselves like he can." Based on the reaction from the students at the end of GoF, I would think not. They were not amazed Voldie managed to feat of resurrecting. They were horrified. To parallel this back to the anti-christ, when the anti-christ dies and resurrects himself, the world will be amazed because, and this is important, there is *no* way to resurrect yourself in *our* world. In the wizard world, it seems to be a complete possibility. Granted a hard to accomplish feat, but a feat that is possible none the same as long as the person is not already dead. The WW is not shocked he managed to do it, but are more scared he is back - again. Scared also by the fact, they were wrong and he wasn't dead. Maybe the idea that this wizard cannot die will frighten more to kiss his hem, but Voldemort is not out to win over the masses. After all, Voldemort is not setting up a campaign to bake cookies, socialize with the commoners, and convince the world he wants to end world hunger and the oppression of house elfs. He wants to take it by force. He give no false pretenses to this either. All know this. All know he is evil and *extremely* powerful. They are not deceived. Gracious, even the death-eaters are not deceived. Yet in the middle of the tribulation, in the middle of the HP series, anti-christ!Voldemort returns to strength. A feat not expected by the regular wizards. And returns more powerful and more terrible. Will this divide the WW more? Seems it was not too divided in the first place. Just universally terrorized by a gang of outlaw wizards. They might of been a little divided on how to deal with Voldie, but it seems generally they all didn't like him (that is an understatement). So will more accept him now? I don't know. I would not like to think so. But fear of power and pain is a powerful decision-maker sometimes. Hey, I just thought of something. Voldemort even has a "mark of the beast". That is amusing. Still doesn't convince me, but is amusing. Melody From voldemort at tut.by Fri Nov 8 05:12:08 2002 From: voldemort at tut.by (Sasha HP) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 07:12:08 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: anti-christ!Voldie (was: Everybody Dies! biblically?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <334248454.20021108071208@tut.by> No: HPFGUIDX 46293 Greetings! Sorry for relatively short post, but I just couldn't let this pass by... ;) > Melody wrote: M> This concept annoys me. The idea of Voldemort as a play M> on the anti-christ just does not sit well. I guess don't M> like the idea because it implies if Voldie is the M> anti-christ then Harry is Jesus, and that thought annoys M> me more. All remember Christ's fate? Poor Harry it seems... ;) M> (...) M> Still, Voldemort? An anti-christ? And anti-christ is a M> false prophet that hypnotizes the world to believe he is M> the savior of the world. Yep. This seems to suit know whom? Yeah. Harry himself. :) He is a prophet, and he has hypnotized many a character into believing he has great fate to save the world... Fits so well with my "Harry Potter Is Ever So Evil" theory... 8) Sincerely yours, Alexander Lomski, Gryffindor/Slytherin crossbreed, always happy to throw weird ideas into community. Friday, November 8, 2002, 7:06 local time (GMT+2:00) P.S. Does anybody of you westerners know when 5th book is coming out? From cureluv88 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 8 06:49:23 2002 From: cureluv88 at hotmail.com (Liz) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 06:49:23 -0000 Subject: What don't we expected from the Dursleys? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46294 Here is a quote from that list of things JKR has said about book five that is on many website: "The Dursleys are in the next book, and there's stuff coming with them that people might not expect." There's been a lot of talk in HPFGU semi-recently about the idea that Petunia or Dudley could be a witch/wizard. That's only one idea of something unexpected. We should try to brainstorm some other theories. I have none of my own at the moment; it's late and I need to go to bed. But I wanted to see if anyone else had come up with something. Thanks, Lizbot From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Nov 8 07:04:32 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 02:04:32 EST Subject: Egypt - a correction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46295 Just for the sake of accuracy (viz: before Richard - who's supposed to be working, not posting, as am I - catches up again and catches me out), I should point out that when I said Egypt was in NW Africa, I, of course meant NE Africa. You know, top right hand corner of the triangle. That's what comes of posting when one's tired. Tying this in with what Dave said, this is of course why it is easy not to think of it as African, it being so close to the Middle East. Eloise Whose last module was in Egyptology and who woke up mortified this morning expecting at least one of you to have spotted the error! From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Fri Nov 8 07:41:30 2002 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 07:41:30 -0000 Subject: Enabling the Slyths: Redeemable Draco In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20021107125809.00a4fbd0@mail.clarityconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46296 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Joyce wrote: > At 07:31 AM 07-11-02, Debbie wrote: > > > >who, contrary to popular opinion, has Draco on the short list of > >characters least likely to die; Lucius, on the other hand, is > >Dead!Dead!Dead! (but not till book 7) > > If this stays true to literary form, it will be a Weasley that does Lucius > in. And, perhaps Ron that takes care of Draco. > > Hey, I am pretty psyched to see it. :o) > > J- I personally believe it'll be Arthur or Ron who does Lucius in. King Arthur did in Lucius, originally, and his lance was named Ron. Of course, I also suspect Percy and Ginny are short for Percival (Sir Percival), and Genevieve (alt form of Guinevere). As far as Draco goes, I'm not quite as sure, given that King Arthur is Arthur *Pendragon*, which is a more modern form of "pen draco". Given how the dragon standard is associated with Arthur, I suspect we may actually end up with Draco working with the Weasleys at some point. I still haven't worked out how Molly, Bill, Charlie, Fred, and George fit into all this, though... --Arcum From amberhillcrest at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 00:56:23 2002 From: amberhillcrest at yahoo.com (amberhillcrest) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 00:56:23 -0000 Subject: Dudley the pig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46297 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" wrote: > Ok, so Hagrid meant to turn Dudley into a pig, but he said the spell > didn't work properly (according to Hagrid anyway) when Dudley only > grew a pig's tail. Now, Dudley was a bit *piggy* as it was, but the > Dursley's only had his tail removed by the muggles. I am thinking > that maybe that spell didn't go quite as bad as Hagrid thought it > did, and that Dudley is slowly turning into a big fat pig :o) What > are the odds that he'll start growing sow's ears . . . ? > > Julie ;o) The spell does not work, but Hagrid assumes that Dudley was already so porcine that there wasn't much left to do to make him more pig-like. I like your theory that the spell did work. JKR has been critisized for making Dudley increasingly more and more overweight as the years go by but perhaps it is not characterization but rather magic. I'm going to have to agree with you- I think that the spell worked better than we have been led to believe. -Maureen Amber From amberhillcrest at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 01:06:34 2002 From: amberhillcrest at yahoo.com (amberhillcrest) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 01:06:34 -0000 Subject: Enabling the Slyths: Redeemable Draco In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20021107125809.00a4fbd0@mail.clarityconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46298 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Joyce wrote: > At 07:31 AM 07-11-02, Debbie wrote: > > > >who, contrary to popular opinion, has Draco on the short list of > >characters least likely to die; Lucius, on the other hand, is > >Dead!Dead!Dead! (but not till book 7) Joyce: > If this stays true to literary form, it will be a Weasley that does Lucious > in. And, perhaps Ron that takes care of Draco. > > Hey, I am pretty psyched to see it. :o) > > J- I have always anticipated a Potter/Malfoy showdown. Potter is a poster boy in the wizarding world- he is the boy who lived. Conversely, Draco is the Harry equivalent for the supporters of LV. Who else do they (the DEs) have? Crabbe and Goyle? Although, one could seriously argue that Ron has just as big of a "beef" with Draco. Between Malfoy's jokes about Ron's mother and his flippant use of the word "Mudblood," Draco has managed to acquire two serious rivals. -Maureen Amber From sladjanast at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 02:47:01 2002 From: sladjanast at yahoo.com (sladjanast) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 02:47:01 -0000 Subject: The Bull's Eye on Hermione's Back (WAS Doomed, they're doomed! [) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46299 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > > Here's the sad tale of woe that points to Hermione as dying a > > miserable and premature death in OoP, all IMHO, of course. > > First up, JKR is really beating the "horrible to write" drum, isn't > > she? At one point she might have even said writing this death > > would "crucify" her. She says she's not enjoying it at all. So > > whoever bites the bullet in OoP has to be *Big!* > > > > But JKR gave us some other clues, didn't she? She first mentioned > > this bit about "horrible to write" quite a long time ago. She has > > to be aware that lots of folks are betting on Dumbledore or > Hagrid. > > She knows what that Hagrid actor said about his contract. Yet > there > > she was just this week, telling some reporter again how oh-so- > > horrible the death would be... Then she writes: > > Look at that! JKR *volunteered* that whole bit about the bad > > death. She didn't have to say that, now did she? It's like she > > couldn't wait to repeat the bit about the horrible death. Oh, JKR > > is sitting in her mansion, laughing her head off that no one has > > come close to figuring out what she has in mind. If we've all > > guessed it correctly in Dumbledore or Hagrid, I'd expect JKR to > back > > off a bit or stay mum about the death. So that means to me that > the > > Hagrid/Dumbledore consensus is way off. I have to say a few things here: First and foremost, while I do think there is always some kind of interaction or even a relationship between writers and their readers, I cannot imagine such thing as a writer who is aware of what the readers expect and therefore writes the exact opposite or whatever is the furthest from the general expectations, just to be able to say 'There, I win, you lose'. I somehow cannot imagine JKR writing what she thinks will come as the greatest surprise because of this little game some readers play with her, in their minds only, I 'm afraid, the game where they compete how to best predict what will happen while at the same time losing some finer points of the book,the author, the literature, if you will. I also recall JKR saying that the story, the whole story, has been in her head from the very beginning and that she feels strongly it has to be told a certain way and will not be changed along the way for the sake of her readers wishes or for the sake of contradicting their guesses for that matter. This is what I find to be one of JKR's finest traits as a writer, the fact that she is here to tell her story which, therefore, has a deeper meaning than just cheap twists, unexpected events, little suspected turns etc. And does she (JKR) spends her time reading through the most fantastic theories proposed here and probably elsewhere so that she could trick us all? Surely, that would explain the postponing of the new book, but still? And, surely, this horrible death cannot be JKR's tweaking, it must have been there from the very beginning, in the writer's original plan? So, if it is Hermione, it is not becouse the readers, or rather the list members,least expect it, is it? Cindy also writes: >I mean, if I were JKR and I had established the > > lynchpin of Book 5 as the death of Hermione, I'd be a little > worried > > that no one seemed the least bit bothered by that potential > > outcome? Oh, JKR is sweating now, rightfully worried that > > Hermione's death might not be met with the outpouring of grief JKR > > needs to make OoP work. So she keeps hinting at the horrible death > > during interviews -- even when no one asks her about it. > Let's see if I understand this correctly: she 'keeps hinting at the horrible death' so that we could be more upset when we find out it's Hermione, therfore JKR herself? So, JKR is going to kill Hermione to see if we, the readers, would be really, really sorry if JKR herself died? And, as she 'knows' that we probably would not feel the appropriate amount of pain, she advertises the death that really is her own, even when no one asks her about it just to ensure her share of the readers' grief? If anything of this turns out to be even remotely true I am afraid that will mean that one of my favourite writers is a plain psycho. However, let's all hope for the best. For my part, I have been entirely obssesed with 'the gleam', I expect someone rather unhappy to die so that he/she can turn into a ghost and thus provide a 'learning link' to the world of those particular creatures but also that this particular death may not be the 'horrible death' about which I don't think at all. I also consider Dobby to be a special fan indeed and am not very happy with how Peter Pettigrew was demoted into such a horrid and complete villan as he spent almost three books being a regular pet and even bit Goyle/Crabb in SS in a regular pet-esque way, not very smooth in my opinion. I wish to read in detail about Dumbledor's brother and find out Bloody Baron's story, and most of all, hope to see a book called Hogwarts, A History when the HP series is over. Sladjana From revanto at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 03:13:41 2002 From: revanto at yahoo.com (revanto) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 03:13:41 -0000 Subject: Some interesting notes on the legend of the Phoenix Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46300 Actually, alot of myths are based on reality. The myth of Santa Claus, werewolves and vampires have their own truths that have just been exaggerated through time or not totally understood because of primitive thinking. With werewolves and vampires, the stories were based on rare diseases that became horror stories. Santa Claus is basically a creation of Coca Cola from an old (real) story of a generous man. The phoenix in a sense is symbolism for recreation in the early days of humanity. There are references in the Bible of recreation littered around. Basically, it's a primitive version of cloning. You can take a DNA sample from someone and clone them, as the phoenix was born from "it's own ashes". The Egyptian Era was quite an interesting era, really. I really don't want to link religion into this book because I believe it doesn't have a right to be there. But alot of the resources JK has drawn from does have a crumb of reality in there. I think that Voldemort would hang around where he is strongest. Unless, his entourage accompany him to Egypt, I think he would be quite exposed there. Revanto - "Is there a sulphuric acid Bertie Bott's Jelly Bean?" From revanto at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 03:17:14 2002 From: revanto at yahoo.com (revanto) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 03:17:14 -0000 Subject: Sneaky Dursleys, maybe? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46301 I heard a rumour somewhere that the Dursley's attitude changes towards Harry in Book 5. This leads me to a theory that somehow they plan to sell him out. Even though old Voldy can't touch Harry or his household (I'm assuming), he could still find a way of getting in touch with the Dursley's under the cover of deceit and offering a way of getting "rid" of their problems (Harry). They won't realise that getting rid of Harry would mean death, though, just out of their hands. Revanto - "Do health conscious wizards eat Carob Frogs?" - From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 03:34:41 2002 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 03:34:41 -0000 Subject: Everybody Dies! biblically?/ Who Lives? In-Reply-To: <011301c286d6$3fba6a20$529dcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46302 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > > > > Anyway, I'd like to start a list of who will live in the end. Here goes: > > Harry Potter (dies but lives anyway, so he can go on both lists!) > Minerva McGonagall > Severus Snape > Hermione Granger > Sirius Black > George Weasley > Molly Weasley > Arthur Weasley > Charlie Weasley > Percy Weasley > > Various others will live as well, but those are the prominents. Which > leaves, what, four dead Weasleys? Maybe too many, I don't know for sure on > that one. Anyone else want to add to/ take away from the list? > > Richelle I have a feeling that many of your guesses will be correct (except Weasleys) or maybe I just want you to be. :) It is hard to predict how many Weasleys will survive, but I am almost positive that Persy will die, of course I may be wrong. I do agree with you that one of the twins will die and I have no idea on Ron, although I would like for him to live. I would love for both Sirius and Remus to survive, but if I were to pick one of them I would choose Sirius in a heart beat. I hope that Snape will live and Harry too, of course. Alla From pat_mahony at hotmail.com Fri Nov 8 08:06:25 2002 From: pat_mahony at hotmail.com (The Kirk) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 08:06:25 -0000 Subject: What don't we expected from the Dursleys? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46303 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Liz" wrote: > Here is a quote from that list of things JKR has said about book five > that is on many website: > > "The Dursleys are in the next book, and there's stuff coming with > them that people might not expect." > > There's been a lot of talk in HPFGU semi-recently about the idea that > Petunia or Dudley could be a witch/wizard. That's only one idea of > something unexpected. We should try to brainstorm some other > theories. I have none of my own at the moment; it's late and I need > to go to bed. But I wanted to see if anyone else had come up with > something. My personal belief is that what we learn about the Dursleys is what was in the letter that Dumbledore left with Harry. Presumably the Dursleys haven't had much contact with the WW, yet Petuania knows how Lily died, and they know to leave Harry with Mrs Figg whenever they leave the house. My bet is that there is some very significant information in the letter, and that's got something to do with "stuff that's coming with them that they might not expect". See ya Roo From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Fri Nov 8 04:51:10 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 22:51:10 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does anyone have a theory about Peeves? References: Message-ID: <3DCB42BE.E09F4AF8@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46304 revanto wrote: > > I remember in the first book that the ghosts all had a meeting about > Peeves and they mentioned that he wasn't really a ghost. I also heard > that Cedric was coming back to book five but as an essence or > something (more tangible than a ghost?). I'm guessing that's what > Peeves is too. I think that Peeves was was killed in such a way that > he somehow went mad before he died EG he could have been tortured and > the pain was too much before he died. That could explain his > craziness and childish behaviour. > > Any thoughts on this? > > Cheers > Revanto > Of course he isn't a ghost... He is a poltergeist. A poltergeist is not a normal ghost, but one that can effect the physical world, in that they can throw things around and pick things up that a ghost would pass right through. A poltergeist tends to be more emotional and/or violent natured then a ghost traditionally. Jazmyn From revanto at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 03:55:28 2002 From: revanto at yahoo.com (revanto) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 03:55:28 -0000 Subject: On the subject of the portkey/triwizard cup... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46305 I may have been possible that Moody/Crouch only set the portkey to the graveyard. There might be a possiblity that the ghosts of his parents or Fawkes power may have reset the portkey in some way so that Harry could return. James says to Harry to go straight to the portkey as it'll take him back to Hogwarts. Revanto - "I have the ability to disapparate and apparate in the exact spot I'm in!" From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Nov 8 12:16:58 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 07:16:58 EST Subject: In Defence of Fawkes Message-ID: <135.17466b09.2afd053a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46306 OK, yes, I know I said I wasn't supposed to be posting, but I need to get this off my chest before I can concentrate! I read another post today, which of course I've now mislaid, which referred to Fawkes as a traitor. This is probably very personal, but I really find it quite disturbing that one of my favourite historical characters and one of my favourite HP characters are maligned in this way. Yes, Guy Fawkes did commit and act of treason, in the legal sense, of an act which is aimed at overthrowing monarch or government and Barb has talked about this and of how it might be interpreted. But it seems to me that above all, Fawkes the phoenix is a symbol of fidelity. Only showing Dumbledore real loyalty brings him to Harry in the Chamber of Secrets, as Dumbledore explains. Whilst Guy Fawkes was a traitor against the state (a state at that point identified with its monarch) he too, is a symbol of fidelity. He remained faithful to his God and his church to the point of death. Although he did eventually give the names of his co-conspirators, it was not until he had shown incredible bravery and strength of spirit under prolongued torture after which he was not fit to be questioned again for a further six days. Specimens of his signature given before and after torture and the eyewitness report that he was scarcely able to mount the scaffold bear witness to what he endured. So I'm not worried about Fawkes, or Dumbledore. Yes, I agree that Dumbledore may be - probably will be - condemned as a traitor by Fudge and the wizarding establishment, but I have no doubts as to his loyalty to the truth and the cause of right. Fawkes, I believe will continue to be a symbol of and a support to those who are loyal to him. Eloise Wondering if Fawkes holds the key to why Dumbledore trusts Snape. From SylverSongblade at aol.com Fri Nov 8 08:28:39 2002 From: SylverSongblade at aol.com (SylverSongblade at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 03:28:39 EST Subject: Who versus who Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46307 I've always thought that Dumbledore had to be out of the way by book 7 to produce these results: Harry vs. Voldemort Ron vs. Draco Arthur vs. Lucius I figured that the ultimate battle had to be between the two biggies: Our hero and his tormentor, his arch nemesis. Dumbledore can't offer him an out with his safety net, though I will miss him sorely. If Harry is going to face off with Voldemort, what kind of challenge would Draco provide? He's just a small fry, not worth it compared to the challenge Vodlemort is. Now for Ron, he's got a HUGE bone to pick with Draco, so do their fathers. I still can't figure who Hermione would face off with... if this model proves correct, I think JKR will provide us with someone's butt for Hermione to kick. I don't see Sirius and Snape facing off, they're on the same side (Snape could die anyway, that'd be cool for the plot). I also think Neville will prove his mettle by facing off someone big, but aside from Draco, he doesn't have anyone to be his "opposite". Perhaps JKR will develop more people for us to hate, ala Skeeter and Moody!Crouch. Just my few words for this list. ::goes back to lurking:: ~ Sylvia T. Leung ~ ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v Wish?: an online manga: http://www.wish3.net ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From revanto at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 11:02:07 2002 From: revanto at yahoo.com (revanto) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 11:02:07 -0000 Subject: Weasleys of death (Was: Re: Enabling the Slyths: Redeemable Draco) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46308 > I personally believe it'll be Arthur or Ron who does Lucius in. King > Arthur did in Lucius, originally, and his lance was named Ron. Of > course, I also suspect Percy and Ginny are short for Percival (Sir > Percival), and Genevieve (alt form of Guinevere). > --Arcum I don't see any of the Weasley's offing Lucius or any of the Malfoys. Though Ron kind of leans towards more of the "revenge" persona than his dad, neither of them seem a killing type. Nice connection there, Arcum, with King Arty. Revanto - "Do midgets have to ride handbrooms instead of normal brooms?" - From gandharvika at hotmail.com Fri Nov 8 13:11:01 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 13:11:01 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Lockhart's a Fool Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46309 Lockhart's a Fool/He's So Smarmy (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _I Want You/She's So Heavy by the Beatles) An obscure song from the album Abby Road...but when you listen to the Beatles as much as I do, no Beatles song is too obscure... A Midi is here: http://www.rena.gr/midi/beatles/beatles.htm Dedicated to Lilac, my partner in crime :)> Ron: He's a fool, why's he teaching Dark Arts? He's a fool, why's he teaching Dark Arts? That stupid Lockhart, he thinks he's so smart He's a fool, why's he teaching Dark Arts, now? He's a fool, why's he teaching Dark Arts? He's over the top, he's really a fop He's a fool, why's he teaching Dark Arts? He's a fool, why's he teaching Dark Arts? He's playing a part, I wish he'd depart He's a fool, why's he teaching Dark Arts? He's a fool, why's he teaching Dark Arts? The girls think he's hot, I think that he's not He's so smarmy Smarmy, smarmy, smarmy He's so smarmy Smarmy, smarmy, smarmy He's a fool, why's he teaching Dark Arts? He's a fool, why's he teaching Dark Arts? I wish that he's stop before he does start He's a fool, why's he teaching Dark Arts? He's a fool, why's he teaching Dark Arts? That stupid Lockhart, he thinks he's so smart He's so... (Instrumental rocks on for a while...) -Gail B...the Midi does not do justice to Paul McCartney's fabulous bass playing in the original... _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From gandharvika at hotmail.com Fri Nov 8 13:29:55 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 13:29:55 +0000 Subject: (FILK)Rita Skeeter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46310 How about another one to get your morning going? Rita Skeeter (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Helter Skelter_ by the Beatles) Popularized by Charles Manson...(oh, that was mean of me) Listen to it on Real Audio: http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/manicstreet/655/realaudio/realaudio.html Harry: You come up to me and you say that you're wanting a quote Then I look and I see what your magic quill wrote I'm surprised what I see, it's all nothing but lies Yeah, yeah, yeah "What made you decide to enter, now? We all know that you really weren't allowed There's no need to be scared 'bout getting in trouble You know our readers really love a rebel" Rita Skeeter, Rita Skeeter, Rita Skeeter, yeah "Are you, aren't you feeling a bit nervous? Would you say you're being ambitious? Tell me can you remember your parents? How'd you think they'd feel at this moment?" Watch out! Rita Skeeter, Rita Skeeter, Rita Skeeter The next day I read the news clip in the Daily Prophet You have twisted my words, this is not what I said Everyone's mad at me, I don't want to see you again! Yeah, yeah, yeah "How did your past trauma affect you? Do you now feel you've something to prove? Tell me, tell me, tell me," you ask "How do you feel 'bout the upcoming tasks?" Watch out! Rita Skeeter, Rita Skeeter, Rita Skeeter Watch out! Rita Skeeter, she's writing down lies Yes she is, yes, she's publishing lies. Draco (Yelling): HARRY POTTER REALLY STINKS! -Gail B....I'VE GOT BLISTERS ON MY FINGERS! _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From potter76 at libero.it Fri Nov 8 13:36:02 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 14:36:02 +0100 (ora solare Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort the Vampire - Quirrell drank the unicorn blood, not Voldemort. References: Message-ID: <3DCBBDC2.000001.40911@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 46311 Julie: SS/PS p 293: Voldemort speaking *snip* "See what I have become?" the face said. "Mere shadow and vapor . . . I have form only when I can share another's body . . . but there have always beeen those willing to let me into their hearts and minds. . . . Unicoren blood has strengthened me, these past weeks . . . you saw faithful Quirrell drinking it for me in the forest . . ." *snip* So it's Quirrell who drinks the blood here. Me: All very true but a problem arises. How comes that the unicorn blood that Quirrel drinks is only beneficial to Vapour!Voldemort? Shouldn't Quirrel too gain that sort of cursed immortality Firenze speaks about ( well, actually he says 'cursed life' which maybe has different entailments)? he dies instead vhem LV leaves him. Julie: But nevertheless, it is blood drinking. And I mentioned just a few messages ago that I do believe that somehow Voldemort is a vampire and this is how he's not dead from all this. Me: I have a very intresting analisys of the HP series by Gail Grynbaum, a jungean psychologist with an interest for Alchemy, where LV is compared to the Vampire archetipe. If anyone in interested in reading it I can either quote the passage in question ( I seem to recall it's not too long) or post the entire essay to the File section. just let me know what anyone would prefer me to do. R. From potter76 at libero.it Fri Nov 8 14:40:29 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 15:40:29 +0100 (ora solare Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Weasley Economics References: Message-ID: <3DCBCCDD.000007.40911@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 46312 Megalynn: How long have the Weasley's been poor? How much longer will they be poor? and Why doesn't Molly work? [cut] Especially by book 6 when even the twins are out of school and Molly and Arthur only have 2 children to care for. Even in book 4 their load got lighter because Percy got his own job. I will really be disappointed if JKR keeps on with the "Poor Ron" thing much longer because it won't make sense. Me: This is also something that has always kept me wondering. I brought it up sometime ago but it seemed to stir no one's interest. Actually, I'm not bothered very much by the fact that Molly doesn't work. Lots of women don't in real life, even when the family is not so well off and we are shown that the Weasley *do* manage to live on Arthur's wages even if doing some sacrifices. I'd like to remind to everyone that the whole point of the feminist struggles in the 60-70's is freedom of choice: a woman as the same right of a man to chose to be whatever she likes, which implies that if a woman chooses to take on the traditional female role of full-time mother and housewife she's free to do it and no one should be saying anything about it. Anyway, it's true that it strikes as odd that a single mother campaigning for a change in the view of single-parent families includes not even a tiny example of this but only traditional families with males and females taking on traditional roles. Coming back to the Weasleys' situation, well, it seems that poverty is endemic', if we are to believe what Malfoy says when he first meets Ron. But by GoF they should be getting quite comfortable, 3 of their sons have a job and I guess that are now quite financially independent , what's more 2 of those sons haven't been living at home for years already in Ps (it was 6 years since Charlie had left for Romania), so there are no 'food and lodging' expenses for them. They may not send money home to help the family but still it's not Arthur's salary that has to pay for all they need. Having 4 (and for 1 year, 5) kids at Hogwarts may be very expensive but still it strikes me that things seem never to get better. As, even without being rich, my family has never had any serious financial problems I may be wrong, but it seems unrealistic to me that the Weasleys still can't get anything new! R. From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 15:06:33 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 15:06:33 -0000 Subject: Is Egypt Africa? (WAS: Will Harry go to Egypt in OoTP? ) In-Reply-To: <2081144318.20021107155722@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46313 Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > I think many of us tend not to think of Egypt as Africa because > we're inundated with media stereotypes associating Africa with > Tarzan, etc. Now me: Thanks, Dave, for helping me to feel less idiotic for asking this question! ~Phyllis From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 15:11:13 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 15:11:13 -0000 Subject: Egypt - a correction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46314 Eloise (eloiseherisson) wrote: > Just for the sake of accuracy (viz: before Richard - who's > supposed to be working, not posting, as am I - catches up again and > catches me out), I should point out that when I said Egypt was in > NW Africa, I, of course meant NE Africa. You know, top right hand > corner of the triangle. That's what comes of posting when one's > tired. > > Tying this in with what Dave said, this is of course why it is easy > not to think of it as African, it being so close to the Middle East. > > Eloise > Whose last module was in Egyptology and who woke up mortified this > morning expecting at least one of you to have spotted the error! Now me: I just had to consult my son's globe when I got home from work last night so I could verify for myself that Egypt was in Africa, since I've never thought of it so before. In looking at the globe, I did notice that Egypt was in the North East, not the North West. However, I figured that you meant NE, and I was also so impressed that you knew Egypt was in Africa in the first place that I couldn't possibly criticize you! ~Phyllis with apologies to the mods for not consolidating this post with the one I just wrote From msbonsai at mninter.net Fri Nov 8 16:13:25 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 16:13:25 -0000 Subject: Some interesting notes on the legend of the Phoenix & Santa Claus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46315 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "revanto" wrote: Revanto: > Actually, alot of myths are based on reality. The myth of Santa > Claus, Santa Claus is > basically a creation of Coca Cola from an old (real) story of a > generous man. Me: I'm not sure where you get your historical information . . . but you need to know just how old the legend really is! On May 8, 1886, Atlanta druggist Dr. John Stith Pemberton (former Confederate officer) invented "Coca-Cola" syrup http://www2.netdoor.com/~davidroy/cocacola.html This Dutch-American Saint Nick achieved his fully Americanized form in 1823 in the poem A Visit From Saint Nicholas more commonly known as The Night Before Christmas by writer Clement Clarke Moore. http://www.the-north-pole.com/history/ We won't even mention the 1773 date in that link ;o) Revanto: > The phoenix in a sense is symbolism for recreation in the early > days > of humanity. There are references in the Bible of recreation > littered > around. Me: Yes, but most of them are referring to Christ being reborn, the resurrection of the scattered and smashed state of Isreal. But I won't get into this, because it would be incredibly long. Revanto: > I really don't want to link religion into this book because I > believe > it doesn't have a right to be there. But alot of the resources JK > has > drawn from does have a crumb of reality in there. Me: And again, I can't say as I completely agree with you, especially from some of the things JKR has said. I'm also wondering. You said you think Voldemort would stay where he is strongest. Do you mean where his support is strongest? I'm not so certain that Voldemort is entirely without support in other areas of the world. And if you're referring to his physical health, I think he's pretty strong now. Just my opinions :o) Julie From msbonsai at mninter.net Fri Nov 8 16:17:45 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 16:17:45 -0000 Subject: Harry's Babysitters: was: What don't we expected from the Dursleys? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46316 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "The Kirk" wrote: Roo: > My personal belief is that what we learn about the Dursleys is > what was in the letter that Dumbledore left with Harry. > Presumably the Dursleys haven't had much contact with the WW, > yet Petuania knows how Lily died, and they know to leave Harry > with Mrs Figg whenever they leave the house. My bet is that there > is some very significant information in the letter, and that's got > something to do with "stuff that's coming with them that they > might not expect". > > See ya > Roo Roo I think that's an interesting theory. I just have one question really, They did leave Harry with Mrs. Figg, but not all the time. In fact, many other babysitters are mentioned. What I would like to know (and we probably won't find out) is why the other babysitters did not want to watch over Harry. It's not like he'd get angry at them? Accidently performed magic? (He doesn't mention anything with that happening at the babysitters.) So is the real reason the babysitters gave up all the rumors that the Dursely's spread about Harry being abnormal? Julie From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 16:22:01 2002 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 16:22:01 -0000 Subject: Who versus who In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46317 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., SylverSongblade at a... wrote: I also think Neville > will prove his mettle by facing off someone big, but aside from Draco, he > doesn't have anyone to be his "opposite". Perhaps JKR will develop more > people for us to hate, ala Skeeter and Moody!Crouch. > > Just my few words for this list. ::goes back to lurking:: > > ~ Sylvia T. Leung ~ > ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v Neville v. The Lestranges! I mean, after what they did to his parents, its got to happen. But will he be like Harry v. Wormtail and spare their lives, or will he just Crucio them back? I for one hope Neville doesn't go to the dark side on this one. -Ing From msbonsai at mninter.net Fri Nov 8 16:43:45 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 16:43:45 -0000 Subject: Antichrist!Harry & Antichrist!Dumbledore? was: anti-christ!Voldie In-Reply-To: <334248454.20021108071208@tut.by> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46318 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sasha HP wrote: Alexander > Yep. This seems to suit know whom? Yeah. Harry himself. :) > > He is a prophet, and he has hypnotized many a character > into believing he has great fate to save the world... Fits > so well with my "Harry Potter Is Ever So Evil" theory... 8) Me: The antichrist. Comes across as someone so good that people believe he's good . . . until 1/2 way through the tribulation when it really becomes apparent that he's really evil. Here we are . . .1/2 way through the "tribulation" as someone put it earlier . . . and Dumbledore has a gleam in his eye . . . radiates a tangible power and has everyone believing he's absolutely good . . . and then again, he looks apprehensive when he sends Snape out to do whatever it is he must do . . . but it must have gone over well, because Snapes at the Leaving Feast only a week later . . . and maybe was back earlier, as classes were still on . . . hmmmmmmmm ;o) Alexander: > P.S. Does anybody of you westerners know when 5th book is > coming out? Me: She says she's only weeks away from handing it to the publishers, then it's 3 to 5 months in the presses. Julie :o) From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 16:56:32 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 16:56:32 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Goals (WAS: New Magical World) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46319 bugaloo37 wrote: > Thanks for the above JKR statement- I had not heard that > Voldemort's first goal was European domination. IMO, Voldemort has > another goal- one that he has been working on for some time, > according to himself, prior to his failed attempt to kill Harry- > immortality. I can certainly see how one goal can be connected to > the other. Now me: Here's the exact quote if you're interested: Q: "How does the Dark Lord affect American wizards and witches?" JKR: "He affects everyone, but his plan is European domination first." and the link: http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm Voldemort clearly states in GoF that immortality is his goal. But there's nowhere in any of the books that speaks to why he wants to become immortal, or what his ultimate objective is. We have JKR's interview reference to "European domination," but that's about it. I don't think he's really all that interested in Muggle or Mud-blood cleansing. While his younger 16 year old self talks of carrying on Slytherin's "noble" work by opening the chamber in CoS and ridding Hogwarts of Muggle-borns, it doesn't seem to me that the Voldemort that Tom Riddle grew into is actually focused on this objective. He lets his DEs have fun torturing Muggles (in GoF, it's referenced that half of the Muggle killings when Voldemort was in power the first time were for "fun"), but it doesn't appear to be his ultimate objective. Moreover, if he kills off all of the Muggles, there wouldn't be many people left to rule over (since wizards comprise a relatively small share of the world's population). So what is his ultimate objective - just power? I suppose that could be it, since he's obviously very power-hungry, but I'm wondering if there isn't more to his goals than we've been informed of to date. ~Phyllis From oppen at mycns.net Fri Nov 8 08:28:37 2002 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 02:28:37 -0600 Subject: Bill Weasley On The Job Message-ID: <000401c28749$89a8d220$f3510043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 46320 I think myself that one explanation for the discrepancy between PS/SS and the other books about Bill Weasley's location is that he may have been originally investigating wizardly stuff in the Sudan (the site of quite a few Egyptian, sub-Egyptian and quasi-Egyptian sites---Meroe, for example) and then, in pursuit of something he found there, gone to Egypt either to consult with real experts in ancient Egyptian and related cultures' magic, or to track down something he had found clues to in the Sudan. While the Sudan is _close to_ Egypt, it isn't part of Egypt these days, and even in ancient times its cultures, while obviously heavily influenced by and derivative of Egyptian culture, were distinct. Meroitic heiroglyphics, unlike Egyptian heiroglyphics, have not been completely deciphered yet to the best of my knowledge. So-o-o, you have this scenario: When Harry enters the Wizard World, Bill Weasley is busily working on something arcane in the Sudan. Later, he runs into something he can't understand, and says "I know! I'll go ask Professor Jaysh Al-Arabi in Egypt! He teaches at (the Egyptian equivalent of Hogwarts) and would know all about this!" Or, he finds clues to something interesting and overlooked in Egypt itself---say, in the tomb of an Egyptian sorcerer in the areas that were under the control of the Pharaohs in ancient times, but are not part of "Egypt" these days. In hot pursuit, he hotfoots it up to Egypt itself. In any case, _both_ countries are very definitely in Africa. From indigo at indigosky.net Fri Nov 8 17:07:22 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 12:07:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Babysitters: was: What don't we expected from the Dursleys? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200211081207220870.058CB162@mail.indigosky.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46321 On 11/8/2002 at 4:17 PM jastrangfeld wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "The Kirk" wrote: >Roo: >> My personal belief is that what we learn about the Dursleys is >> what was in the letter that Dumbledore left with Harry. >> Presumably the Dursleys haven't had much contact with the WW, >> yet Petuania knows how Lily died, and they know to leave Harry >> with Mrs Figg whenever they leave the house. My bet is that there >> is some very significant information in the letter, and that's got >> something to do with "stuff that's coming with them that they >> might not expect". >> >> See ya >> Roo > >Roo I think that's an interesting theory. I just have one question >really, They did leave Harry with Mrs. Figg, but not all the time. >In fact, many other babysitters are mentioned. What I would like to >know (and we probably won't find out) is why the other babysitters >did not want to watch over Harry. It's not like he'd get angry at >them? Accidently performed magic? (He doesn't mention anything with >that happening at the babysitters.) So is the real reason the >babysitters gave up all the rumors that the Dursely's spread about >Harry being abnormal? > >Julie > > *tosses off cloak of lurking* The Dursleys only trusted Vernon's sister and Mrs. Figg because they were /ashamed/ of Harry being 'abnormal', IMO. They didn't want just any babysitter because you know how teenagers gossip, and you don't want gossip getting around about the perfect Dursleys having abnormal Harry Potter living with them. I think they picked babysitters who were either Dursley related or were abnormal themselves so no one would believe anything Arabella said. And Vernon's sister of course wouldn't talk because she hates Harry as much as Vernon and Petunia. --Indigo From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 8 18:07:52 2002 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 12:07:52 -0600 Subject: Interesting Article In-Reply-To: <200211081207220870.058CB162@mail.indigosky.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021108120240.04d5bbc0@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46322 The author of this article (http://slate.msn.com/?id=2073627) makes an interesting, if negative, appraisal of Harry, his abilities and his character. His final assessment is that Harry's choices, despite what AD says, are not as important as his involuntary qualities (innate abilities, instincts, inherited wealth, birth, etc.). Interesting reading, although I have trouble buying the thesis completely. Jim From sydpad at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 16:00:25 2002 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 16:00:25 -0000 Subject: Weasley Economics In-Reply-To: <3DCBCCDD.000007.40911@i3a2c5> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46323 Rita wrote: > > Anyway, it's true that it strikes as odd that a single mother campaigning > for a change in the view of single-parent families includes not even a tiny > example of this but only traditional families with males and females taking > on traditional roles. Well, there IS Hagrid, who was brought up by his father in a decidedly non-traditional situation; ditto Neville, brought up by his Grandmother with occasional kibitzing by great-uncles. Rita wrote: > Having 4 (and for 1 year, > 5) kids at Hogwarts may be very expensive but still it strikes me that > things seem never to get better. As, even without being rich, my family has > never had any serious financial problems I may be wrong, but it seems > unrealistic to me that the Weasleys still can't get anything new! > R. Well, the question also is, what are 'serious' financial problems? The Weasley's don't seem in danger of starving or anything similar, but seven kids in boarding school, including competion brooms for Charlie and the twins, must have been a constant drain. I'm not surprised their savings are pretty low. That said, the Weasleys do seem to be a little bad with money. Blowing the whole prize gold on visiting Bill sounds a bit impulsive to me. Another point to remember, is that Ron is particularily stung by his poverty RELATIVE to Harry. In comparison with a best friend with a massive trust fund, anyone is bound to feel hard done by, never mind a fourteen-year-old boy. RE: Molly working-- a factor to consider, is the employment situation in the WW... what's she supposed to do, tend bar? Perhaps she's selling the eggs and various handicrafts such as jam or something, but one the whole wizarding employment is either ministry, or artisanship, with a smattering of service jobs. Madam Rosmerta owns and waits on the Three Broomsticks; even Olivander minds his own till; and goblins reserve all the banking work to themselves. If she was at home with Ginny until a couple of years ago, her options seem pretty limited to me, as she wouldn't have a ministry career-track set up. "Sydney" From c_toast at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 18:07:08 2002 From: c_toast at yahoo.com (Joyce) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 18:07:08 -0000 Subject: Enabling the Slyths: Redeemable Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46324 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "arcum42" wrote: > I personally believe it'll be Arthur or Ron who does Lucius in. I am fairly certain that there will eventually be a showdown between Lucious and Arthur Weasley. Who will win? Up for grabs. There is certainly enough tension between the two characters to justify a wizardly physical confrontation between the two. My money is on Arthur - Who will also feel a responsibility to protect Harry from Lucious. Lucious is too full of himself to fight effectively in an even match. In addition, he doesn't seem the type to protect anyone but Lucious - Including his son. Arcum: As far as Draco goes, I'm not quite as sure, given that King Arthur is Arthur *Pendragon*, which is a more modern form of "pen draco". Given how the dragon standard is associated with Arthur, I suspect we may actually end up with Draco working with the Weasleys at some point. Interesting. I always figured that Draco was sort of the undeveloped dark side in all of us. He is sort of a dual character, isn't he? We are so wrapped up in the myth of the child as the innocent. It is difficult to look at him as anything but an innocent. We want to assume the best. He has a lot of choices to make in the future. Just as all the others do. That his name connects to the legend of Arthur also might reference a dual nature. IIRC, Arthur was just as responsible for the fall of Camelot as he was for the rise. I am not sure if there is any meaning to that. I don't know my Camelot mythos much beyond JFK. ;o) I am torn between Ron and Hermione being the eventual antagonist of Draco's character. Both certainly have the motive. It's important to remember that they are all teenagers with that whole hormone rebellion kicking in. Makes things a bit more unpredictable in the long run. J- From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 15:32:57 2002 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 15:32:57 -0000 Subject: Meaning of OoP (was Re: Egypt, the Bible, and Harry's right arm) In-Reply-To: <005901c286a9$246ca490$7001a8c0@bloubetdellpc> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46325 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Beth Loubet" wrote: > ...And, possibly, in so doing, become a member of the "Order of the > Phoenix", an order that Voldemort desperately wants to join. You've just triggered an idea in my head, regarding the meaning of "Order of the Phoenix." Speculation that I've read tends to center around it being some sort of group, ostensibly lead by Dumbledore, which in the past fights against any serious uprisings of Dark Wizards (e.g. "the old crowd" mentioned in GoF). Other speculation, more recent, is that it refers actually to the [new] name of Voldemort and his crew, since Voldemort was reborn in GoF, just as the phoenix is. [the above is a disclaimer to summarize the theories I've read, in case what I'm about to propose is already there in the archives and I've missed it... :-) ] In the first four books, we've seen different honors/titles that can be bestowed upon wizards. I don't have the books in front of me, so this is from memory.... On the trading card for Dumbledore in SS/PS, I believe he is "Order of Merlin, First Class" and "Supreme Mugwump." Lockhart was "Order of Merlin, Third Class" [no comment!] and "Honorary Member, Dark Force Defense League." Snape was going to be awarded some level of "Order of Merlin" (forget which) for catching Sirius in PoA. Presumably, these are awarded by the Ministry of Magic for certain tasks. First Class=capture/defeat of dangerous Dark Wizard (Dumbledore for Grindewald, Snape for Black). Third Class=well, since it's Lockhart, no description necessary. Supreme Mugwump... maybe figuring out something significnt for wizards (Dumbledore with the 12 uses of dragon's blood). So perhaps, "Order of the Phoenix" is some very, very rare honor that gets handed out when someone accomplishes something extraordinary, like dying in some specific way. (Didn't they give some title to Pettigrew when he was presumably blown up by Sirius?) Maybe dying and... coming back to life? Here's where the quote above comes in. Now, I doubt Voldemort or Dumbledore really cares about some MoM honorific. But keep in mind that Dumbledore does tell Harry that there are ways Voldemort can return -- that tells me that Dumbledore does know how to resurrect himself if he so chooses. (Perhaps he has long conversations with Fawkes?) If there's an Order of the Phoenix reserved for rare individuals who overcome death, it must be possible, so presumably those who look hard enough will find the answers. So based on this, Dumbledore dies in Book 5 and vanishes (perhaps to Egypt?). But at some point, the Daily Prophet runs the first article from Rita Skeeter in almost a year, stating that the late Albus Dumbledore has been awarded the Order of the Phoenix. Naturally, nobody knows what this is, but Hermione finds it in the library and learns in means Dumbledore is alive -- somewhere -- and the Ministry has confirmed both his death and that he's alive again, hence the award. I daresay such an article would be highly useful to spook Voldemort and the Death Eaters. Even if it were... not true? (Of course, this would trash the Hermione-dies-in-OotP theory. Rats...) "Aja" From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 15:59:40 2002 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 15:59:40 -0000 Subject: What don't we expected from the Dursleys? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46326 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Liz" wrote: > Here is a quote from that list of things JKR has said about book five > that is on many website: > > "The Dursleys are in the next book, and there's stuff coming with > them that people might not expect." > > There's been a lot of talk in HPFGU semi-recently about the idea that > Petunia or Dudley could be a witch/wizard. That's only one idea of > something unexpected. We should try to brainstorm some other > theories. I have none of my own at the moment; it's late and I need > to go to bed. But I wanted to see if anyone else had come up with > something. > > Thanks, > Lizbot My thought on this was always that Uncle Vernon loses his job and the Dursleys suddenly can't buy Dudley everything he wants, nor send him to Smeltings, etc. Suddenly, they're poor. Suddenly, Dudley gets an idea (economically, anyway) of what Harry's lived like since he was a year old. Maybe Petunia gets a job and can't spy on neighbors all day anymore. The big flaw with this is that if the *house* they live in is critical to the protection of Harry that Voldemort referred to, and they have to sell the house... hmmm... what's the exchange rate of a galleon to a pound again? Maybe Harry & Co have to recover a treasure in an Egyptian pyramid to save #4 Privet Drive from foreclosure! "Aja" From kaityf at jorsm.com Fri Nov 8 18:26:25 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 12:26:25 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Weasley Economics In-Reply-To: <3DCBCCDD.000007.40911@i3a2c5> References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021108120734.012745d8@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46327 Rita wrote: >5) kids at Hogwarts may be very expensive but still it strikes me that >things seem never to get better. As, even without being rich, my family has >never had any serious financial problems I may be wrong, but it seems >unrealistic to me that the Weasleys still can't get anything new! I say: I hadn't thought about the Weasley's financial status too much until the recent postings and this one finally made me think of something. It does indeed seem unrealistic that the Weasleys still can't get anything new. True they have 5 kids in Hogwarts, but they had at least 4 in at the same time before (I think), plus 2 at home. That had to be rather expensive. Now they have 5 at school, but 2 out on their own, and aside from the cost of the books and accessories, do we know what, if anything, Hogwarts costs? What the tuition is? In addition to that, Arthur surely doesn't have a minimum wage job. He works at the Ministry of Magic and seems to have a fairly decent position there. Even with a large family and a stay-at-home wife, it strikes me as unusual for them to be so very poor. So my thought was -- what if there is some other reason the Weasley's have no money? I have no idea what that reason might be, but maybe it's related to the last time Voldemort was around. Could Arthur be in debt as a result of Voldemort's last reign of terror? Or could Arthur be paying the bills of someone who was either destroyed or hurt by Voldemort? Hospital bills, for instance? Or could he be helping someone who is in hiding and wants to remain in hiding, just in case? Or could he be contributing to some project? It also makes me wonder then if Arthur's trip to Egypt was strictly for pleasure or if some business was involved. Maybe he didn't even win the money for the trip. Anyway, as I said, I have no idea what the reason might be that the Weasleys are so very poor, but I do wonder now if there IS some reason other than the obvious. From cindysphinx at comcast.net Fri Nov 8 19:25:46 2002 From: cindysphinx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 19:25:46 -0000 Subject: Interesting Article In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021108120240.04d5bbc0@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46328 James wrote: > The author of this article (http://slate.msn.com/?id=2073627) > makes an interesting, if negative, appraisal of Harry, his >abilities and his character. Oh, James, you are way too kind! ;-) In all the Harry Potter-bashing articles I've read, this one is without question the most amusing. Harry "is a glory hog" who skates through school by taking advantage of his "inherited wealth and establishment connections"? Huh? It is just so very strange. The author complains that everything Harry has was given to him. The Marauder's Map. The Invisibility Cloak. His brooms. Uh, last time I checked none of the students at Hogwarts had *day jobs.* All of them have whatever they have been given. Harry is no different, so what is the problem again? And finally, there is the ultimate insult: a brazen attack on Harry's manhood, declaring him to be a talentless "patsy." "And even with his lucky wand, Harry still needs his mom's ghost to bail him out by telling him what to do. Once again, Lily Potter proves to be twice the man her son is." Oh, ouch! Man, it's kinda sad when one must resort to defamation of fictional characters to take them down a peg or two. Cindy -- who wonders if she could make a career out of claiming that McGonagall is homewrecking hussy From sharronpowell at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 20:03:59 2002 From: sharronpowell at yahoo.com (Sharron Powell) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 20:03:59 -0000 Subject: Interesting Article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46329 > And finally, there is the ultimate insult: a brazen attack on > Harry's manhood, declaring him to be a talentless "patsy." "And > even with his lucky wand, Harry still needs his mom's ghost to bail > him out by telling him what to do. Once again, Lily Potter proves to be twice the man her son is." And of course, Harry isn't a MAN... he's a boy :-) The whole argument of the article writer seems a bit specious. Are the kids in "A Series of Unfortunate Events" series 'patsies' because they end up running away from the villian/stacked deck? Of course not. As with Harry, just surviving the horriffic circumstances is a major acheivement. Learning how to take what life gives you (good and bad) and make the best of it is a major part of childhood. Sharron From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 8 20:08:46 2002 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 14:08:46 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Interesting Article In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021108120240.04d5bbc0@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021108140502.06f2ad20@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46330 As the clock struck 07:25 PM 11/8/2002 +0000, Cindy C. took pen in hand and wrote: >And finally, there is the ultimate insult: a brazen attack on >Harry's manhood, declaring him to be a talentless "patsy." "And >even with his lucky wand, Harry still needs his mom's ghost to bail >him out by telling him what to do. Once again, Lily Potter proves to >be twice the man her son is." Isn't it interesting that the author seems to believe that a teenage wizard should be able to defeat one of the greatest evil wizards of all time (and a handful of his minions) without any help? I felt that, in seeking single combat with Harry, LV was recognizing that Harry was individually formidable. Jim From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Fri Nov 8 20:48:40 2002 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 15:48:40 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort the Vampire - Quirrell drank the unicorn bl... Message-ID: <17f.118d6afd.2afd7d28@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46331 In a message dated 11/8/2002 9:46:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, potter76 at libero.it writes: > All very true but a problem arises. How comes that the unicorn blood that > Quirrel drinks is only beneficial to Vapour!Voldemort? Shouldn't Quirrel > too > gain that sort of cursed immortality Firenze speaks about ( well, actually > he says 'cursed life' which maybe has different entailments)? he dies > instead vhem LV leaves him. As I understand it, unicorn blood doesn't make the drinker immortal, it just saves a person from dying. Which (Here comes a brand new theory I *just* hatched) might be why Quirrell didn't die. In GoF Voldemort says that the animals he lived off died quickly. I've started to assume that maybe this is because he had to live off the animals 'life force', not just because an animal's body couldn't handle being possessed. Well, maybe the same thing would happen with a human. So maybe the unicorn blood kept them BOTH from dying. ~Cassie~ "If Severus Snape taught sex-ed, would he be called 'The Sex Master'?" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From voldemort at tut.by Fri Nov 8 19:58:56 2002 From: voldemort at tut.by (Sasha HP) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 21:58:56 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Interesting Article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <733441066.20021108215856@tut.by> No: HPFGUIDX 46332 Greetings! > Cindy wrote: CC> Oh, James, you are way too kind! ;-) CC> In all the Harry Potter-bashing articles I've read, this CC> one is without question the most amusing. Harry "is a CC> glory hog" who skates through school by taking advantage CC> of his "inherited wealth and establishment connections"? CC> Huh? Maybe the author was inspired by "Barry Trotter"? ;) Actually, I have read the article with great interest and enjoyment. It's the best attack on Harry I have ever read, and should be praised as such. 8) And you cannot refuse the truth of the words that it's Lily who is the one the books should be named after. ;-p Actually, I can't wait for someone to write a real good parody on Harry Potter... so far all parodies I have read were pretty dumb (American Barry Trotter, Russian Tanya Grotter and similar junk). Author works in right direction, and though it's unlikely he will write a book himself, but at least maybe he will inspire someone... Sincerely yours, Alexander Lomski, Gryffindor/Slytherin crossbreed, always happy to throw weird ideas into community. Friday, November 8, 2002, 21:39 local time (GMT+2:00) P.S. Lyra Silvertongue beats Harry 3 times our of 2. :) From anakinbester at hotmail.com Fri Nov 8 21:24:33 2002 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 21:24:33 -0000 Subject: Interesting Article In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021108140502.06f2ad20@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46333 Jim Wrote: > Isn't it interesting that the author seems to believe that a teenage wizard > should be able to defeat one of the greatest evil wizards of all time (and > a handful of his minions) without any help? I agree; I find that charge a bit silly. I think it's heroic enough that Harry choose to try and _fight_ Voldemort at all, rather than just run away or give in. That's a lot for a 14 year old, and as Peter so wonderfully proves, something that not all adults can do. Also, I find it odd that Harry is being accused of . . . getting help! Dear Lord, the boy can't do everything by himself; he needs his friends? This is bad? To me, something that makes him a hero is the fact that is his not a stereotypical self-absorbed jock. The wizarding world's adoration of him has not gone to his head. I don't think Harry sees himself as anyone special. He has certainly never asked for or expected special treatment. In fact, he's quite bewildered by it when he gets it on PoA. As for getting gift . . . so if Harry's accomplishments are belittled by the fact that he gets expensive or unusual gifts, then what, my accomplishments as an artists are belittle because my parents spent several hundred to get me a drafting table and paints and such before I had a job? Yes Harry is given things. Everyone is given things. The point is, Harry uses what he's given. And, I don't think he takes it for granted. All the complaints the writers brought up are, for me, what makes Harry so likable. No he can't do it all on his own. Yes, he is indeed very average. He's not even brilliant in school. Yes, his mother gave him life, and now he must make something of it. I don't know, to me, if he weren't all those things, he'd be unrealistic and boring. Speaking of unrealistic, I found the article particularly funny because A: It read like something Snape might write ^__^ B: It read like the author thought Harry was a real person. Did anyone else get this feeling? Half the things he brought up were something that seemed aimed more at a real life person than a fictional hero. -Ani From magsthomas at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 21:30:35 2002 From: magsthomas at yahoo.com (Margaret Thomas) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 13:30:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who vs. Who / Interesting Article (Slate) In-Reply-To: <1036785999.1836.99715.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021108213035.22191.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46334 Responding to two messages at once since I read HP4GU in digest form -- I'd never be able to keep up with everything otherwise :} > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 03:28:39 EST > From: SylverSongblade at aol.com > Subject: Who versus who > > I've always thought that Dumbledore had to be out of > the way by book 7 to > produce these results: > > Harry vs. Voldemort > Ron vs. Draco > Arthur vs. Lucius > > I figured that the ultimate battle had to be between > the two biggies: Our > hero and his tormentor, his arch nemesis. Dumbledore > can't offer him an out > with his safety net, though I will miss him sorely. > ...Now for Ron, he's got a HUGE bone to > pick with Draco, so do > their fathers. While I love the character dearly, I fall in the camp of people who think Dumbledore will die (or have some other phoenix-rising-out-of-the-ashes type phenomenon occur) somewhere during books 5 - 7. And I agree wholeheartely that it would be tough for Harry to fully come into his own while Dumbledore's still around. What I really liked about this post is the juxtaposition of Ron / Arthur with their respective nemeses (Draco / Lucius). And they're battling on multiple levels: a) Basic good vs. evil (fathers and sons) b) Taunting about wealth / status (fathers and sons) c) "Pull" with the Ministry of Magic (fathers) d) Muggle sympathies (fathers and sons) -- which becomes even more personal for Ron when factoring Draco's verbal assaults on Hermione (interpret an R/H SHIP alert here as you choose -- SHIP or not, Ron doesn't like Draco singling out his friend) > I still can't figure who Hermione would face off > with... if this model proves > correct, I think JKR will provide us with someone's > butt for Hermione to > kick. While I follow this theory that each of the characters you've mentioned has a signficant foe to defeat, I don't think that 'foe' necessarily needs to be a person. In Hermione's case, the 'foe' (or cause) could be: a) SPEW -- having some marked influence on improving House Elf quality of life b) (if you're a SHIPPER) Ron / Harry -- choose your ship, but part of her battle is being noticed for something other than her smarts (which I understand, but she shouldn't see her smarts as a liability) c) Muggle-dom -- She's representative of the Death Eaters' target population > I don't see Sirius and Snape facing off, > they're on the same side > (Snape could die anyway, that'd be cool for the > plot). Snape & Sirius have a common battle for personal credibility among their peers (teachers / fellow wizards). Each of them is in the position of having to prove which side they're on -- and having to hide behind some alter ego in the process. I'm counting on JKR to reveal (soon!) what Snape's stake is in Harry himself -- we already know why Sirius wants Harry kept safe. > I also think Neville > will prove his mettle by facing off someone big, but > aside from Draco, he > doesn't have anyone to be his "opposite". Neville's biggest challenges are his self-confidence (including identifying his strengths / talents as a wizard, although we're leaning toward Herbology on this one). I'm a Neville fan -- I'd love to see him come through on some difficult Herbology-related challenge! And the other is conquering the fear / memories associated with his parents' torture -- which may suggest Neville's participation in ultimately defeating Voldemort. I know people have drawn parallels between Neville & Pettigrew...I'm hoping JKR doesn't resort to such obvious literary redundancies in the two Hogwarts generations. From what I've seen so far, she's celebrated the positive things Neville can do (ie. the house points awarded @ the end of PS/SS). I'm hoping against hope that Neville gets more shots at being the unexpected hero, not the weak link. > Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 12:07:52 -0600 > From: "James P. Robinson III" > > Subject: Interesting Article > > The author of this article > (http://slate.msn.com/?id=2073627) > makes an interesting, if negative, appraisal of > Harry, his abilities and > his character. Thanks to TLC, I'd spotted this Slate.com article before seeing this post on the list. Slate's journalists are political commentators and, while they may have some thought-provoking things to say about the political and business scenes, JKR's books seem somewhat outside their typical scene...although, as I give it more thought, they could be grouped under the heading of "Social Commentary." At any rate, the only difference between the author of that article and an online troll / flame is that the author's getting paid. Slate.com *likes* to incite people's ideological fires and no doubt is banking on some pretty incendiary replies. - MT __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Nov 8 21:46:24 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 21:46:24 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Goals (WAS: New Magical World) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46335 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > > I don't think he's really all that interested in Muggle or Mud- >blood cleansing. While his younger 16 year old self talks of >carrying on Slytherin's "noble" work by opening the chamber in CoS >and ridding Hogwarts of Muggle-borns, it doesn't seem to me that the >Voldemort that Tom Riddle grew into is actually focused on this >objective. He lets his DEs have fun torturing Muggles (in GoF, it's >referenced that half of the Muggle killings when Voldemort was in >power the first time were for "fun"), but it doesn't appear to be >his ultimate objective. > However, in Gof, his extreme, vehement resentment of his muggle father is still very much part of his personality. I am not saying it is his prime motivation-but IMO, it's still an important part of who he is. My feeling is everytime a muggle suffers, Voldemort gets somewhat of a kick out of it-as do all of the DEs. In previous posts, the comparison between Voldemort and Hitler has been explored (a likeness between the two has been verified by JKR herself). IMO, when someone gains the amount of power that Voldemort (Hitler also) has, whatever started the whole quest for power can be lost. So I guess what I am saying is, I do agree that at this point in time ridding the world of muggles AND muggle-born wizards is now low on Voldemort's list of priorities-however, I do not believe he has given up the idea altogether. bugaloo37-who thinks what urks Voldemort the most about Harry's survival is the fact that Harry's muggle-born mother had something to with it. From anakinbester at hotmail.com Fri Nov 8 21:47:01 2002 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 21:47:01 -0000 Subject: Willingly Given In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46336 Ressurecting this thread here ^^;; Sorry, I wanted to reply to this but I've been busy. Michelle wrote: > `Flesh of servant willingly given' > > First of all lets get the dictionary definitions out of the way: > > willing > adj. > 1. Disposed or inclined; prepared: I am willing to overlook your > mistakes. > 2. Acting or ready to act gladly; eagerly compliant: > 3. Done, given, accepted, or borne voluntarily or ungrudgingly. Of or > relating to exercise of the will; volitional. > > willingly > adv. In a willing manner; with free will; without reluctance; > cheerfully. By that definition, Peter was not willing. However, the definition tha'ts important is what the spell means. It could be enough that Peter cut his hand off hismelf; therefore, showing at least some level of willingness. That could be enough for the spell. > Ok now what I'm about to suggest is that Wormtail didn't give his > flesh willingly because he felt he had no choice Ahh but he did have a choice. Peter's always had a choice. He could die. Really what could Voldemort have done, if Peter had been willing to die rather than ressurect him? Again though, Peter chooses life, no matter how miserable over the possibility of death. Or my favorit pet theory is tortured Peter. If Peter has been tortured into subservience (which is completely possible and is a documented reaction to severe torture) then he's no longer behaving in a way the would be natural to him, and any show of willingness would come totally from a psychological reponse to negative reinforcemnt and a whole slew of other fun behvior modifying technigues issued in torture. That would also eliminate the possbility of Peter seeing death as a viable alternate choice. Either way, as Michelle points out, Peter is bullied and forced under extreme duress. He has been tortured. We see canonicle usage of the Cruciatus curse on him, and seemingly Peter feels Voldemort has authority over him and he can't say no, no matter what his personal feeling are on the subject. All straddeling the fence aside, I agree that he was not willing, however, I think he might have been willing enough for the potions purpose. To me, if any weak link omes out of Peter's flesh being part of the potion, it's that PEter as that life debt to Harry. Voldemort better hope that doens't transfor the same way the protection Lily gave to Harry transferred =P Pyllis Wrote: (with me editing in Sirius, rather than Moody, as corrected in a later post) > I don't think Wormtail's flesh is the weak link in the potion because > Dumbledore and [Sirius]don't react when Harry tells them about > Wormtail's sacrifice - it's the taking of Harry's blood that triggers > [Sirius's] "long, low hiss" and Dumbledore's "gleam of triumph." To which I say: I'm not sure that in and of itself discounts the idea that Peter's flesh could be a weak link. It seem to presume that Sirius and Dumbeldore know the exact workings of the potion and Peter's exact frame of mind while cutting his hand off. That could be significant without them realizing it. Dumbeldore, after all, is not all knowing. Sirius certainly isn't. -Ani From quinn at nanotech.wisc.edu Fri Nov 8 18:51:16 2002 From: quinn at nanotech.wisc.edu (qquinn13) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 18:51:16 -0000 Subject: Name meanings: Hagrid In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20020917025923.00a5b480@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46337 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: > I'm on a roll... > > I didn't plan this to happen, but having written the messages about > "Voldemortist" and "Arabella Figg", I thought I'd take a look at > MuggleNet's "name origins" page to see what they've come up with and was > utterly astonished to see this one: > > "Hagrid: Name and tale comes from greek myth. The ancient Hagrid from the > myth was the god of Jewels. This god was said to be the kindest of the > gods, but Hades framed him for the death of Piraeus's (the killer of > Medusa) son. Hagrid was banished from Olympus but Zues allowed him to stay > as the watcher of the animals. " > > Where did they get "Piraeus" from? Piraeus was a harbor for 5th C. BC Athens. During the Greco-Persian wars, Themistocles either moved the main Athenian shipyards from Phaleron Bay to Piraeus, or vv. (Don't recall for certain which but I think the former.) In any case, the new harborage was instrumental in supporting the ships that helped win the war (the oracle's "wooden wall") and in developing Athens' role as a centre of culture in the centuries following. - Quinn From cloakofgold at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 19:06:31 2002 From: cloakofgold at yahoo.com (Patricia Morrison) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 11:06:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Arthurian Allusions in "Harry Potter" In-Reply-To: <1036742557.9483.29181.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021108190631.96139.qmail@web40609.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46338 arcum wrote: >I personally believe it'll be Arthur or Ron who does Lucius in. King >Arthur did in Lucius, originally, and his lance was named Ron. Of >course, I also suspect Percy and Ginny are short for Percival (Sir >Percival), and Genevieve (alt form of Guinevere). >As far as Draco goes, I'm not quite as sure, given that King Arthur is >Arthur *Pendragon*, which is a more modern form of "pen draco". Given >how the dragon standard is associated with Arthur, I suspect we may >actually end up with Draco working with the Weasleys at some point. As a longtime fan of all things Arthurian, now THIS is what I like to see!:D Okay. First, "Pendragon"...a hybrid of Welsh and Latin, with "pen" being the Welsh word for "head" and "dragon" from the Latin draco (dragon), genitive draconis, "dragon's". In Welsh, "draco" became "dreic", or "drake" in Englsih. Hence, "dragon's head." Not really applicable to Harry, except that the Sorting Hat wanted to put him in the dragon's house, Slytherin, but there it is. Arthur inherits the title as his only legacy from his father Uther...a powerful father whom he had never known in life, having been whisked away at birth (sounding familiar yet?) to protect him from those who want to see him dead or at the very least incapable of inheriting anything else from his father, like kingship. Arthur grows up in a household as a foster child whose true identity only the parents of the house are aware of. He has a foster brother(Kay) who gets all the attention and spoiling as the "rightful" heir. He knows nothing about his parentage, which will prove problematic, to say the least, once it is later revealed. He is trained by a wise old magician---Merlin of course---and his true identity and powers are gradually revealed to him over the course of some years. He magically comes into possession of a magical sword that both enables him to defeat his enemies and confirms him as the true Heir. (Sorry, never heard of Arthur's lance being called "Ron"...there is an Irish word ron, with an accent aigu over the o, pronounced rone and meaning "seal", like, you know, the marine creature. He assembles around himself a Round Table of loyal friends and supporters, including the best knight in the world, Lancelot. He dies in the end, defeating his own son (Mordred), but he mysteriously doesn't die, and will "come again" when he is needed... I like the suggestion that "Percy" is short for "Percival", probably quite correct. "Ginny" is more commonly "Virginia", but we don't know. "Guinevere" is from the Welsh Gwenhwyfar, and means "white shadow." "Gwenhwyfar" is also a word used for *a white owl*, the shadow across the light. Hmmmm..... Anyone else want to play? ---cloakofgold __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From amberhillcrest at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 19:59:10 2002 From: amberhillcrest at yahoo.com (amberhillcrest) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 19:59:10 -0000 Subject: Interesting Article In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021108120240.04d5bbc0@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46339 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "James P. Robinson III" wrote: >The author of this article (http://slate.msn.com/?id=2073627) makes an >interesting, if negative, appraisal of Harry, his abilities and his >character. His final assessment is that Harry's choices, despite what AD >says, are not as important as his involuntary qualities (innate >abilities, instincts, inherited wealth, birth, etc.). Interesting reading, >although I have trouble buying the thesis completely. I was going to post about this, but it looks like you beat me to it. Good gracious, this author is vehemently anti-Harry-- not even Snape is that mean to Harry!! I find it very interesting that we have someone aware of the HP world bashing Harry. While I don't agree with the points being made, the author has clearly read the books. This is far different from the usual "HP teaches kids to worship the devil" anti-Harry fervor. Harry spent most of the first 11 years of his life severely abused. Not only is he physically abused, but he is forced to sleep in a closet when Dudley's toys are given a whole room of their own. He suddenly learns about his past and who he is and that he is a celebrity. In a relatively short time, he goes from being a boy who slept in a closet to someone who makes his first friends ever and becomes the star of the Quidditch team. This would naturally be overwhelming. So naturally, he is going to be unsure of himself at first because he has always been knocked down when he tries to stand up for himself. Even as his self-esteem develops as the years go by, he is still going to be unsure of himself because he is a young teen going through lots of changes. -Maureen Amber From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Fri Nov 8 22:13:15 2002 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 17:13:15 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arthurian Allusions in "Harry Potter" Message-ID: <3c.274555c4.2afd90fb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46340 In a message dated 11/8/2002 4:53:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, cloakofgold at yahoo.com writes: > Anyone else want to play? (From "The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter") Why are Harry and Cedric like Knights of the Round Table? "The Goblet of fire is a 'roughly-hewn wooden cup' that would be 'entirely unremarkable had it not been full to the brim with dancing blue-white flames.' By magic, it calls on certain wizards to test their skills in the Triwizard Tournament. The challenge and its mysterious source link the competitors, including Harry and Cedric, to the legends of King Artur and the Round table. "The Goblet of Fire is more than a little similar to another powerful goblet that has launched tournaments and battles: the Holy Grail. This is the cup from which Jesus Christ drank at the last supper. Though sometimes depicted as a shining silver goblet, the Holy Grail, being the cup of a poor carpenter, would probably have been made of wood---like the Goblet of Fire. The Grail is also a magical object. To drink it is to be miraculously healed. And like the Goblet, it can sense whether or not a person is worthy. "According to legend, King Arthur, praying for a sign from heaven during the barren period in his reign, sees the Grail. He and his knights then undertook quests to either capture it or at least understand its significance. "In Harry's world the final task of the Triwizard Tournament is also to literally find the Grail, in this case the Triwizard Cup, and to win it for Hogwarts. and just as the Grail in Arthurian legend is found by Galahad, son of Lancelot, because his soul is completely pur, Harry and Cedric succeed in reaching the Cup through strength and character as much as wizarding skill. "It's amusing to not that althogh Galahad finds the Grail in the Arthur stories, most of the legends focus on a character named Perceval. Born in a peasant family, Perceval eventually proves his virtue and becomes a Knight of the Round Table. Whether Percy Weasley will show his qualities exhibited by his name sake remains to be seen." ~Cassie~ "If Severus Snape taught sex-ed, would he be called 'The Sex Master'?" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 20:50:10 2002 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 20:50:10 -0000 Subject: Interesting Article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46341 > > In all the Harry Potter-bashing articles I've read, this one is > without question the most amusing. Harry "is a glory hog" who > skates through school by taking advantage of his "inherited wealth > and establishment connections"? Huh? I enjoyed this too...who really wrote it? Severus Snape? No, it's too snide even for him. More like Draco Malfoy. It sounds like something cooked by comittee at a Slytherin house meeting: "Simple: He's a glory hog who unfairly receives credit for the accomplishments of others and who skates through school by taking advantage of his inherited wealth and his establishment connections. Harry Potter is no braver than his best friend, Ron Weasley, just richer and better-connected. Harry's other good friend, Hermione Granger, is smarter and a better student. The one thing Harry excels at is the sport of Quidditch, and his pampered-jock status allows him to slide in his studies, as long as he brings the school glory on the playing field." My goodness! I think we need to scratch a little at this guy's surface I'm sure we'd find a green and silver heart beating it's Slytherin Anti-Potter mantra! Melpomene From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Nov 8 22:28:22 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 16:28:22 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weasley Economics/ Re: Enabling the Slyths/ Sneaky Dursleys, Maybe? References: Message-ID: <011801c28776$a0f69340$7fa0cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 46342 Sharron wrote: > I agree with this completely. I just don't see why we are tyring to > justify Molly working or not working. The Weasley's are not poor in > what matters. The Malfoys have all the money in the world; but what > good does it do them? What good do they do with it? I think that when we learn the entire history of Arthur and Lucius it will explain a bit more. Arthur Weasley puts his family first, before money. Lucius puts his money first, the only reason he's even bothered with a family at all is to keep the fortune and family name alive. I tend to believe that the Weasleys have not always been poor. That they had money (not wealthy like the Malfoy's, but your average middle class folks) but lost it somehow. Possibly paying a ransom? That doesn't seem like much of a DE thing to do, but it does fit the Weasley character. Arthur would not hesitate to pay every galleon, sickle, and knut he had to save the life of one of his family. Arcum writes: > I personally believe it'll be Arthur or Ron who does Lucius in. King > Arthur did in Lucius, originally, and his lance was named Ron. Of > course, I also suspect Percy and Ginny are short for Percival (Sir > Percival), and Genevieve (alt form of Guinevere). I think that either Lucius will kill Arthur and the younger Weasleys will in turn kill Lucius or Lucius will kill one (ore more) of the Weasley kids and Arthur will go after Lucius for revenge. Revanto writes: > I heard a rumour somewhere that the Dursley's attitude changes > towards Harry in Book 5. This leads me to a theory that somehow they > plan to sell him out. Even though old Voldy can't touch Harry or his > household (I'm assuming), he could still find a way of getting in > touch with the Dursley's under the cover of deceit and offering a way > of getting "rid" of their problems (Harry). They won't realise that > getting rid of Harry would mean death, though, just out of their > hands. I don't think so. I really don't. I do think their attitude toward Harry will change, but not to sell him out to Voldemort. Instead I think that Molly Weasley threatened the Dursleys at the train station in GoF. She was standing near him when Harry came through the barrier. Compared to before, where Vernon always tried to keep his distance. I think she'd just finished a nice long chat with him. :) Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Nov 8 23:19:40 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 23:19:40 -0000 Subject: Interesting Article In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021108120240.04d5bbc0@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46343 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "James P. Robinson III" wrote: > The author of this article (http://slate.msn.com/?id=2073627) makes an interesting, if negative, appraisal of Harry, his abilities and his character. His final assessment is that Harry's choices, despite what > AD says, are not as important as his involuntary qualities (innate abilities, instincts, inherited wealth, birth, etc.). Interesting reading, although I have trouble buying the thesis completely.<<<< The Slate article fails to distinguish between a real-life phenomenon: the real-world popularity of a fictional wizard called "Harry Potter," and a fictional one: "Harry Potter is a popular wizard." It's hardly difficult to show that Harry doesn't deserve all the adulation he gets in the wizarding world, or that he owes much of it to involuntary qualities. The books themselves make that point constantly. It is an entirely different matter to claim that the character "Harry Potter" doesn't deserve the readers' attention for the same reasons. Yes, Hermione is smarter and Ron is just as brave, but they don't serve as mediators for the reader. Hermione's values are Muggle (in the very best sense) to the point where she occasionally forgets she's a witch, and Ron, of course, is a wizard through and through. It's Harry who constantly hesitates between the rules of the wizarding world and what he thinks is right. These are the choices which are important. In each book Harry is presented with dilemmas in which he must choose between the values of the wizarding world, expressed as Hogwarts rules and the advice of his elders, and those of the Muggle (real) world which he has internalized: not what the Dursleys would do, of course, but whatever he's picked up from school, television and books. Stuck in his closet he is like one of Plato's cave-dwellers--all he knows of the real world is a shadow. In each case, the Muggle choice is the right choice, or so Dumbledore insists: deciding to go after the Stone, entering the Chamber, sparing Pettigrew, returning Cedric's body. Dumbledore often tells Harry he's done what James would have done. But James was a rebel too. Of course there's some wish fulfillment in Harry Potter: who wouldn't want an invisibility cloak or a flying broom or the ability to talk to snakes? But wonderful as they are, his fantastic abilities and possessions never do anything but catapult him into situations which are beyond his level of competence as a wizard, and from which, of course, he needs to be rescued. One can detect, from far away, the cautionary tales of E. Nesbitt. Pippin From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Nov 8 23:19:51 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 23:19:51 -0000 Subject: Imperio'ed Arthur Explains Weasley Economics! In-Reply-To: <011801c28776$a0f69340$7fa0cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46344 If you're reading an Agatha Christie novel, and a government employee seems short for cash, what do you conclude? That's right, ladies and gentlemen. Blackmail! Arthur Weasley is being blackmailed. Someone somewhere has information about what Arthur was up to during the First War against Voldemort. Information that could land him in Azkaban if it got into the hands of a less than understanding Fudge. Information about his being Imperio'ed and forced to [fill in the blank]. Who, you say, can that person be? ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Busy time at the Ministry, I hear," said Mr. Malfoy. "All those raids ... I hope they're paying you overtime?" He reached into Ginny's cauldron and extracted, from amid the glossy Lockhart books, a very old, very battered copy of A Beginner's Guide to Transfiguration. "Obviously not," Mr. Malfoy said. "Dear me, what's the use of being a disgrace to the name of wizard if they don't even pay you well for it?" Mr. Weasley flushed darker than either Ron or Ginny. "We have a very different idea of what disgraces the name of wizard, Malfoy," he said. --------------------------------------------------------------- I rest my case. Eileen, Captain of the Catamaran Marines. From SylverSongblade at aol.com Fri Nov 8 22:18:25 2002 From: SylverSongblade at aol.com (SylverSongblade at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 17:18:25 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Interesting Article Message-ID: <34.2fee5156.2afd9231@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46345 In a message dated 11/08/2002 01:25:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, anakinbester at hotmail.com writes: > All the complaints the writers brought up are, for me, what makes > Harry so likable. No he can't do it all on his own. Yes, he is indeed > very average. He's not even brilliant in school. Yes, his mother gave > him life, and now he must make something of it. I don't know, to me, > if he weren't all those things, he'd be unrealistic and boring. Exactly! It's a huge movement in fiction to now produce a hero that is the "ever wo/man" able to face astounding odds. I'm always moved when I read the part in GoF where Harry gets hugged by Mrs. Weasley. Something most of us probably take for granted - human contact - is something Harry always lacked, yet he does not whine or cry about it. Heck, RON complains more about his life than Harry does. Harry just takes it all in the chin and rolls with it. Personally, I think that if any REAL boy Harry's age faced what he has, having his world turned upside down over and over again, he'd go insane. Harry's fictional and admirable in his survival abilities. ~ Sylvia T. Leung ~ ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v Wish?: an online manga: http://www.wish3.net Art Prints for Sale: http://www.ellenmilliongraphics.com/sylver/ Commission Info: http://www.illuminatorsguild.com/images/sleung/sleung.html "Everyone can feel holy. Religion is just an excuse." ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Fri Nov 8 23:41:46 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 17:41:46 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Interesting Article References: Message-ID: <3DCC4BBA.60A09AEA@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46346 "Cindy C." wrote: > > (snip) > > In all the Harry Potter-bashing articles I've read, this one is > without question the most amusing. Harry "is a glory hog" who > skates through school by taking advantage of his "inherited wealth > and establishment connections"? Huh? > > It is just so very strange. The author complains that everything > Harry has was given to him. The Marauder's Map. The Invisibility > Cloak. His brooms. (snip) Good Grief! Who wrote that article? Severus Snape or Draco Malfoy? So the kid has some things given to him, he also is being raised by abusive people, has a really evil dude out to kill him after failing to finish him off as a kid, not to mention he saw his own parents murdered when he was 1 year old. Also, as for his 'manhood', Harry is just a kid and its one heck of an achievement for Harry as a kid to survive more then one encounter with Voldemort, when most people never survive their first meeting with him... I'd say however that Harry's extreme bad luck is at least balanced by his extreme good luck. Jazmyn From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Fri Nov 8 23:59:36 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 00:59:36 +0100 (CET) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Interesting Article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021108235936.94574.qmail@web21507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46347 anakinbester wrote: Speaking of unrealistic, I found the article particularly funny because A: It read like something Snape might write ^__^ B: It read like the author thought Harry was a real person. Did anyone else get this feeling? Half the things he brought up were something that seemed aimed more at a real life person than a fictional hero. -Ani It's not only funny but also ridiculous. This guy is jealous of a paper child.But the article shows clearly how magic "our" Harry is: few fictional heroes managed to stamp their time so people started to treat them as if they were real persons (think in Sherlock Holmes). None of them did it in such a short time, and with such a force. Harry is yet a legend, and not only in the Wizarding World. Nobody can denie the books are going to become a classic. I even bet they will be taught in literature classes. And we've got the luck to be here and attend the event. It's clear all the marketting around each publication and movie is rather anoying. But it doesn't remove the essential: this is a wonderful character, in a wonderful story. Iris ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sat Nov 9 00:15:15 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 16:15:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Caput Draconis (was: Arthurian Allusions in "Harry Potter") In-Reply-To: <20021108190631.96139.qmail@web40609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021109001515.291.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46348 Patricia Morrison wrote: Okay. First, "Pendragon"...a hybrid of Welsh and Latin, with "pen" being the Welsh word for "head" and "dragon" from the Latin draco (dragon), genitive draconis, "dragon's". In Welsh, "draco" became "dreic", or "drake" in Englsih. Hence, "dragon's head." Not really applicable to Harry, except that the Sorting Hat wanted to put him in the dragon's house, Slytherin, but there it is. Me: Actually, there IS a Harry connection to "dragon's head." It is the translation of "Caput Draconis," which is the password Percy uses to let Harry and his fellow first years into Gryffindor Tower just after they are Sorted. I never realized that "Pendragon" also means "dragon's head." It is also a term used in a form of Divination called Geomancy. When you get a "figure" known as "Caput Draconis" in Geomancy, it is said to be a very good omen. "You will be guided by a generous and unselfish inspiration and bathed in moral light," is one of the things it says on this web page about Geomancy and Caput Draconis: http://www.maudkristen.com/caput1.htm That certainly sounds like Harry. Another site I found concerning "sigils" equates the Caput Draconis "sigil" with that of Leo, Harry's sign, which is represented by a lion. Also, the word "griffin" (part lion and part eagle) figures in the name of "Gryffindor," and in the east, griffins and dragons are often equated and both are considered to be a liaison or axis mundi between the earth and sky. There is also another meaning of "Caput Draconis." This website http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/38/3814.html says: "The movement of the moon around the earth follows an orbit that is slightly slanting in relation to the ecliptic. On each of its revolutions around the earth the moon cuts the ecliptic at two places. The point where the moon cuts the ecliptic from south to north is known as the moon's north node or caput draconis, the dragon's head. " So, if they're paying any attention at all to Professor Sinistra, they would probably also learn this term in Astronomy, and be able to use it in Divination class (if they weren't so busy making up terrible predictions instead of doing their homework properly ). I think it's also worth noting that Harry has already done quite well when going up against a dragon, and the worst dragon among the four champions, at that. Does that make for a good omen should he ever go up against Malfoy in the future? Only time will tell, but I certainly don't think it's a BAD omen, and could very well be a bit of JKR foreshadowing... --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent Chapter 13 of The Triangle Prophecy is finally up! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Nov 9 00:27:13 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 00:27:13 -0000 Subject: Weasley Economics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46349 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Meggers S." wrote: > Why are the Weasley's poor? OK, the explanation is that Arthur REALLY > loves his job and doesn't want to be promoted, but why doesn't Molly > get a job? > > Especially since ALL of her children are gone 9 or 10 months out of > the year. What does she do with her time? Also, the Weasley's being > poor should be wearing off now. > > ....edited... > > Megalynn bboy_mn wanders in with a few random thoughts: This is a general response to all who have posted, but the thread has gotten long and complex, and I don't have enough specific comment to respond to individuals. So, I will add some general comments on the subject. Tricky question, really. First, we need to define Rich and Poor which I will assert that we can not do a very good job of. Why? Well, research has shown that no matter how much money you make, rich people are people who make substantially more than you, and poor people are people who make substantially less. Even people who make a 1,000,000 per year don't see themselves as rich. Rich people are people who make 5,000,000 or more per year. Certainly, those 1,000,000/yr people don't see themselves as poor, but it seem that no matter what people make, it's people who make MORE that are the rich people. Then we come to poor. Someone said that even though their family wasn't rich, they got by just fine. (see above) There is a big difference between being NOT rich and being poor. How many of you are raising 4 or 5 or 6 kids on 25,000 per year? Now that's poor, but it's not starving. Your kids get new shoes, but they don't get the $100 pair of sport shoes their little hearts are aching for; they get a $25 on sale pair from K-Mart or Walmart. To both child and parent, that hurts. I've been in that position, and dispite the fact that I got new shoes, wearing the 'cheapos' still hurt. So, the Weasley's are not poor, they are middle to lower working class. They have plenty of food to eat, a safe comfortable (although not fancy) home to live in, they have clothes to wear, they go to a good school, they don't have such a tough life compared to a kid living on the street, or a kid who has crack heads for parents. So, by my assessment, Weasley's are not rich by any means or stretch, but they are not poor either, they are low income and therefore forced to make sacrifices. When Molly had to give Ron his dress robes, and she saw his reaction, I think it hurt her very deeply. Not because Ron was mad, but because she couldn't give him the quality of clothes that she knew he desparately wanted and that she deparately wanted to give him. That's what it means to be low income; denial. Not psychological denial, but having to deny yourself the things you know you really want. Now let's forget rich and poor, and talk about wealth. Let's talk about what it mean to be enrich rather than rich. What does Harry say the first time he sees the Weasley house and sees Ron's room? He says, it's the best house he's every been in (not an exact quote but close enough). It is not a rich house, but it is a very enriched house. It has value to Harry that is measure far beyond it's value in money. What is quoteed below, expresses how I view the Weasley's true wealth. I can't deny that they are poor, but let's ponder how enriched they are. >From fan fiction: [Setting: a warm summer night at the burrow. All the Weasley brothers are home. Harry is there for a visit. Seeing the Weasley brothers tease and torment each other the way loving brothers do, makes Harry feel very lonely.] - - - - - - - - - - - - Harry paused, feeling trapped, not knowing how to make it all (the conversation) end. "I know a wizard family that is richer than the Malfoy's. They have a treasure that makes Malfoy's look like street beggars. They are the richest family I know. Their name is Weasley, and the treasure they have is each other. I'd give anything to be that rich. Take all the money in my vault, here cut off my arm, take anything you want. I'd give it all away just to have brothers." Harry sniffed, "You don't know how much I wish I had brothers. I wish I had brothers like you." Harry's voice became soft, nearly a whisper, "...I ...I wish ...I wish you ...were ...my ...brothers." - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - While being, without a doubt, economically on the low end of the scale; the Weasley's live a very happy and enriched life. A life far richer that those poor souls who merely have money. And who says their life isn't getting better? How much better did you expect it to get? How big a change did you expect to see? I serously doubt that the Weasley will buy an RV or move into a mansion simply because their kids are now all in school. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From jmmears at comcast.net Sat Nov 9 00:37:08 2002 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 00:37:08 -0000 Subject: Weasley Economics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46350 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "historygrrl1" wrote: > > > Or maybe Molly values her unpaid work in her family's home enough > > that she genuinely feels that taking on a paid job would detract > too much of her time and energy from that arena. ... Molly and Arthur > > never complain. In fact, most of the complaining is done by Ron. > > His other brothers don't seem to worry nearly as much. Actually, Fred and George seem somewhat desperate to make money in order to open their own business. It's mentioned (in GoF)that they feel a special urgency because they know that Arthur and Molly can't give them the gold to get started. First they bet all their savings at the QWC, and when Bagman doesn't pay up, they are actually flirting with blackmail in order to get their money back. In CoS, Tom Riddle mentions that Ginny wrote in his diary of her worries over coming to school in "second-hand robes", and in PoA, Percy makes a bet with Penelope over a Quidditch match and tells Harry that he has to win, since he doesn't have the 10 galleons to cover the bet. I think that we get the impression that Ron is the only one to really mind being poor because he gets the most "page time", but in fact JKR seems to be telling us that the other Weasley kids at Hogwarts are also feeling the effects of the family's poverty. Sharron Powell wrote: I just don't see why we are tyring to > justify Molly working or not working. The Weasley's are not poor in > what matters. > I think that this is a concept that is important for kids to know in > the materialistic culture that we live in; and I'm glad that JKR has > put such a family in the books. > > [The emphasis on the lack of family funds comes from Ron. An > understandable feeling for a 13 year old boy who wants to be like > everyone else (or better). Understandable, but that doesn't mean > that his opinion tells the whole story. I'm sure that in his heart > of hearts (and/or as he gets older) he will see that he would never > trade all Harry's gold for the love of his family.] I couldn't agree more Sharon. Thanks for pointing this out. Jo Serenadust From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sat Nov 9 00:38:54 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 01:38:54 +0100 (CET) Subject: Draco, draconis (Re: Arthurian Allusions in "Harry Potter") In-Reply-To: <20021108190631.96139.qmail@web40609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021109003854.10407.qmail@web21508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46351 Patricia Morrison wrote: "Okay. First, "Pendragon"...a hybrid of Welsh and Latin, with "pen" being the Welsh word for "head" and "dragon" from the Latin draco (dragon), genitive draconis, "dragon's". In Welsh, "draco" became "dreic", or "drake" in Englsih. Hence, "dragon's head." Not really applicable to Harry, except that the Sorting Hat wanted to put him in the dragon's house, Slytherin, but there it is." Do you remember the first password the Gryffindor use in PS/SS? It's CAPUT DRACONIS, "dragon's head" in latin. The first time i read the book, I immediately thought in Pendragon. And tell me, for I don't know Arthurian world as well as you do; didn't Uther Pendragon asked Merlin to awaken a dragon that would help him to win a battle (sorry if I'm wrong; that's a remote and very wolly memory of John Boorman's "Excalibur")? It came back to me when I read Hogwarts watchword "Draco dormiens nunquam titilandus". By this way, I was re-reading CoS and found this: "Deliberately causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class was about as safe as poking a SLEEPING DRAGON in the eye." (Bloomsbury, p 142). Snape dormiens? Severus Pendragon? I don't know. there's only one thing sure : Severus Snape nunquam titilandus, sicut Lockhart experimentum fecit. Iris __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Sat Nov 9 01:40:56 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:40:56 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] On the subject of the portkey/triwizard cup.../ Antichrist!Voldie References: Message-ID: <009c01c28791$4d086a40$509ccdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 46352 Revanto writes: > I may have been possible that Moody/Crouch only set the portkey to > the graveyard. There might be a possiblity that the ghosts of his > parents or Fawkes power may have reset the portkey in some way so > that Harry could return. James says to Harry to go straight to the > portkey as it'll take him back to Hogwarts. My question is how did James etc. know about the portkey at all? Do the echoes trapped inside the wand have a working knowledge of what's going on around them? Could they have known already about the portkey, since Voldemort knew? And were helplessly trapped inside, unable to do anything at all to stop it? Melody writes: > Still, Voldemort? An anti-christ? And anti-christ is a false prophet > that hypnotizes the world to believe he is the savior of the world. > His goal, of course, is global domination, so Voldie does manage to > work that angle, but the anti-christ lulls the world into believing he > is the answer to all their problems. Voldemort does not seem to be > setting up any sort of mass brainwashing to bend the WW to his favor. > He has his few followers and is working to subdue or destroy, > whichever really is most convenient, everyone else. Well, considering we haven't really heard anything from Voldemort's point of view, we don't know what he really tells people. I think he in the past had, and will in the future have more supporters than we know of. The Death Eaters are the elite. There are supporters that aren't actually in the inner circle. For those who do support Voldemort, they have been lulled into believing he is their answer. Richelle From editor at texas.net Sat Nov 9 02:59:02 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 20:59:02 -0600 Subject: Phoenix Parallels (was Some interesting notes on the legend of the Phoenix) References: Message-ID: <000c01c2879b$f6ab5760$8c04a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46353 These Phoenix notes made me think....and I sincerely apologize if this observation has been floated/discussed/dissected before, I haven't been keeping up with the main list as much as I used to. Does anyone think there's anything to a parallel between the rising of the Phoenix (a la Fawkes) and Voldemort's reanimation? Both are rising from the dead---rising as a new version of themselves. I think Voldemort is probably the antithesis of the phoenix, but the parallel is there. And a phoenix feather in his wand, too. Phoenix song part of what kept him off-balance in the graveyard when the wands dueled. A phoenix what helped defeat him in the Chamber (okay, a memory of him, but still). There's got to be something in this. Comments, thoughts, crushing rejoinders that this has been done to death already, all welcome. ~Amanda From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 9 03:02:40 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 03:02:40 -0000 Subject: Antichrist!(insert main character here) In-Reply-To: <009c01c28791$4d086a40$509ccdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46354 I first argued against comparing Voldemort to the anti-christ of Revelations. Since then, it seems a few have taken the anti-christ persona and run with it a little too far. Why exactly, other than shock value, is a wonder of mine, but hey, it is amusing to read even if I dismiss it so easily. So lets go to post quotes: Alexander Lomski put forth on the table: >>Yep. This seems to suit know whom? Yeah. Harry himself. :) >>He is a prophet, and he has hypnotized many a character into >>believing he has great fate to save the world... Fits so well with >>my "Harry Potter Is Ever So Evil" theory... 8) Harry Potter? A prophet? Him? A prophet is one who speaks with divine inspiration. Ask Harry if he manages to sound divine around Cho Chang. And besides, Harry does not *have* to convince the WW that he has "great fate to save the world". He has already proven that fact quite well. And he wasn't even potty-trained yet. Julie then placed another figure on the table: >The antichrist. Comes across as someone so good that people believe >he's good . . . until 1/2 way through the tribulation when it really >becomes apparent that he's really evil. > >Here we are . . .1/2 way through the "tribulation" as someone put it >earlier . . . and Dumbledore has a gleam in his eye . . . radiates a >tangible power and has everyone believing he's absolutely good . . . >and then again, he looks apprehensive when he sends Snape out to do >whatever it is he must do . . . but it must have gone over well, >because Snape at the Leaving Feast only a week later . . . and maybe >was back earlier, as classes were still on . . . Um, I am not quite sure what you were getting at with the last bit about Snape, but Anti-Christ!Dumbledore...hmmm...interesting. Interesting. He has been perceived as almost "god-like". And GoF is the turning book of the series, so he has fit that pattern. He looses in the death and resurrection part of the anti-christ though. Also, the anti-christ is good only to persuade the masses he is the one to rule the world. Dumbledore has passed over that privilege. Also, the Foe-Glass comes to mind. I firmly believe magical objects do not lie (maybe that is what I *want* to believe, but I see no reason for them to lie). So since Dumbledore, Snape, and McGonagall were in the glass, and the glass belonged to Crouch Jr whose they saw as evil for taking Harry away from safety, I would say it is very clear that Dumbledore is not on evil's side. Maybe that is a large jump and great assumption on my part, but to me it is very clear. Richelle wrote: >>Well, considering we haven't really heard anything from Voldemort's >>point of view, we don't know what he really tells people. I think >>he in the past had, and will in the future have more supporters than >>we know of. The Death Eaters are the elite. There are supporters >>that aren't actually in the inner circle. For those who do support >>Voldemort, they have been lulled into believing he is their answer. Ok, I see what your saying. There could be closet-Voldie supporters that run under radar. Big possibility. We have, after all, only heard from the big supports of both sides. There had to be a few country wizards and witches that had a poster of Voldie on a back wall. I guess the question is why are the Death Eaters followers of Voldemort? What would they have to gain? Don't they know evil *always* looses to good? Have they not studied history? Well that is a possibility with the way Prof. Binns teaches, and who know how long that ghost has been at Hogwarts. But once Voldie and his gang got out and about torturing and killing, he was not under any presumptions of character. His intent and goals are no longer hidden. All see him for what he is. A *very* powerful wizard who does some *very* bad things for some *very* wrong reasons. Now it seems the choice of the masses is to align themselves with Voldemort by leaving him alone or be tortured and killed. It was not a attempt on Voldemort's part to bring supports on his rhetoric. Only on the quickness of his death happy wand. The anti-christ bewitches (hehe) the world to believe his intentions are good, and his goals are the ideals to attain. That is when evil really takes over. When it reaches into the mind and convinces the world it is not evil. It seems to me that Voldie has not figured that fact out. Hitler did. He brainwashed a nation. Voldie seems to not have such a campaign. He wants to have all the power. Complete dictatorship. He alone knows what is best for all the world. He wants children to think of him when they sing "He's got the whole world in his hands." So, that is my opinion. No anti-christ!main characters. I know - that view is boring. Sorry. My creative box of crayons is at a friend's house. Melody From editor at texas.net Sat Nov 9 03:02:17 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 21:02:17 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] On the subject of the portkey/triwizard cup... References: Message-ID: <001301c2879c$6ab9bac0$8c04a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46355 It has been theorized (by me, I know for certain, but I think a few others, too) that the Portkey spell has variables which the caster inserts. I believe that the spell allows the caster to set the "trigger" which will activate the Portkey function of the object in question. In the case of the Quidditch Cup portkeys, the trigger was a particular time, and it was a one-way spell. In the case of the Triwizard Cup, the trigger was touch, and it was set to be a two-way spell (round trip). I think the FAQs cover the speculations on Portkeys, if that one's up and running; it may also be discussed in the Lexicon. ~Amanda ----- Original Message ----- From: "revanto" To: Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 9:55 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] On the subject of the portkey/triwizard cup... > I may have been possible that Moody/Crouch only set the portkey to > the graveyard. There might be a possiblity that the ghosts of his > parents or Fawkes power may have reset the portkey in some way so > that Harry could return. James says to Harry to go straight to the > portkey as it'll take him back to Hogwarts. > > Revanto > - "I have the ability to disapparate and apparate in the exact spot > I'm in!" > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > From msbonsai at mninter.net Sat Nov 9 03:37:02 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 03:37:02 -0000 Subject: Antichrist!(insert main character here) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46356 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: Melody: > Um, I am not quite sure what you were getting at with the last bit > about Snape, but Anti-Christ!Dumbledore...hmmm...interesting. > Interesting. He has been perceived as almost "god-like". And GoF is > the turning book of the series, so he has fit that pattern. He looses > in the death and resurrection part of the anti-christ though. Me: Well maybe timewise right now . . . but if he *is* the death of year 5 . . . Melody: Also, > the anti-christ is good only to persuade the masses he is the one to > rule the world. Dumbledore has passed over that privilege. Me: hmm . . I also believe that he's supposed to be so humble at the beginning as to reject and simply help others, until he simply takes over? At least that's kinda how they did it in the Left Behind series. Melody: > Also, the Foe-Glass comes to mind. I firmly believe magical objects > do not lie (maybe that is what I *want* to believe, but I see no > reason for them to lie). So since Dumbledore, Snape, and McGonagall > were in the glass, and the glass belonged to Crouch Jr whose they saw > as evil for taking Harry away from safety, I would say it is very > clear that Dumbledore is not on evil's side. Maybe that is a large > jump and great assumption on my part, but to me it is very clear. Me: Ah yes, the foe glass . . . I've been wondering about that thing . . . just why did Snape have to peer into it? I was trying to figure out if he normally doesn't have a reflection *hehehe* or if there were another reason that JK was trying to hint at . . . the beast for the antichrist? I guess my point about Snape is, is JK still trying to hint something to throw us off course from Dumbledore? He looks at Snape with apprehension in his eyes when he sends him off for some mysterious task . . . We don't know why Dumbledore trusts him (again that little beast bit ;o) ) And look around, most close people to Dumbledore don't even question him, just go out and do the task, at least when it comes down to it. If it's not so urgent, sure they put up their own little fights . . . Just my opinion :o) Julie From amberhillcrest at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 22:42:20 2002 From: amberhillcrest at yahoo.com (amberhillcrest) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 22:42:20 -0000 Subject: Sneaky Dursleys, maybe? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46358 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "revanto" wrote: I heard a rumour somewhere that the Dursley's attitude changes towards Harry in Book 5. This leads me to a theory that somehow they plan to sell him out. Even though old Voldy can't touch Harry or his household (I'm assuming), he could still find a way of getting in touch with the Dursley's under the cover of deceit and offering a way of getting "rid" of their problems (Harry). They won't realise that getting rid of Harry would mean death, though, just out of their hands. Revanto "Do health conscious wizards eat Carob Frogs?" - I'm not so sure about this. The Dursleys are so anti-magic and I don't think that LV could convincingly pass himself off as human. Also, there is the question of what was in the letter that was left with Harry when he first came to the Dursleys. We don't know exactly what it said, but we do know this: the Dursleys panic when Harry gets the first letter addressed to "the closet under the stairs." Finally, why must Harry return to the family that abused him for years and years? We know that students can't spend the summer at Hogwarts, but why couldn't he go to the Burrow? There must be a reason that he has to go home to the Dursleys....while their attitude might change, I don't think that they would be hoodwinked by LV. -Maureen Amber From revanto at yahoo.com Sat Nov 9 02:48:13 2002 From: revanto at yahoo.com (revanto) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 02:48:13 -0000 Subject: Some interesting notes on the legend of the Phoenix & Santa Claus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46359 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "revanto" wrote > Revanto:: > > Actually, alot of myths are based on reality. The myth of Santa > > Claus, Santa Claus is > > basically a creation of Coca Cola from an old (real) story of a > > generous man. > > Me: > I'm not sure where you get your historical information . . . but you > need to know just how old the legend really is! My apologies on this. I tend to skip things when I write but what I meant to say is that they used the story of Saint Nick to their advantage. According to Russian Myth, he wore purple not red. > Revanto: > > The phoenix in a sense is symbolism for recreation in the early > > days > of humanity. There are references in the Bible of recreation > > littered > around. > > Me: > Yes, but most of them are referring to Christ being reborn, the > resurrection of the scattered and smashed state of Isreal. But I > won't get into this, because it would be incredibly long. Yes, but Christ was recreated in the same way. Wait, are you saying that the legend of the phoenix relates to the ressurection of Israel? I'm confused. Can you clear up this passage for me, please? Wait, I see. No, there was reference in Genesis (Not direct but Eve created from the matter of Adam's rib. Poetic but you get the idea.) and also in Ezekiel (37) when Yahweh created a man from bones. It's process that we're going to able to do one day. We're just kind of primitive at it. > > Revanto: > > I really don't want to link religion into this book because I > > believe > it doesn't have a right to be there. But alot of the > resources JK > has > drawn from does have a crumb of reality in there. > > Me: > And again, I can't say as I completely agree with you, especially > from some of the things JKR has said. Yes, there are similarites and parallels to religion (Not just christianity) but it shouldn't be absorbed within the religion. It's funny how I see news articles with the church either embracing HP or condemning it. (Note: There is the middle ground people which accept HP but don't tangle it within their religion.) The ones condemning it don't wan't others to read it (like they have the right to do that) and the ones the embrace it can use it in their teachings more as a publicity thing. Basically, it shows me that they don't have enough faith in their own religion. If they did have enough faith then they would know that there is no threat and have nothing to worry about. JK Rowling's books are fiction whereas religious texts are history books written by a primitive mentality. > > I'm also wondering. You said you think Voldemort would stay where he > is strongest. Do you mean where his support is strongest? I'm not > so certain that Voldemort is entirely without support in other areas > of the world. And if you're referring to his physical health, I > think he's pretty strong now. > > Just my opinions :o) > > Julie I'm just guessing that he would have more support where he hangs around the most. I imagine he hangs around England and Europe but that's just my opinion. Revanto - "What is that in your mouth?" "It's a cockroach cluster. Do you want me to spit it out?" "Um, please don't..." - From revanto at yahoo.com Sat Nov 9 03:39:02 2002 From: revanto at yahoo.com (revanto) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 03:39:02 -0000 Subject: On the subject of the portkey/triwizard cup... In-Reply-To: <001301c2879c$6ab9bac0$8c04a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46360 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amanda Geist" wrote: > It has been theorized (by me, I know for certain, but I think a few others, > too) that the Portkey spell has variables which the caster inserts. I > believe that the spell allows the caster to set the "trigger" which will > activate the Portkey function of the object in question. In the case of the > Quidditch Cup portkeys, the trigger was a particular time, and it was a > one-way spell. In the case of the Triwizard Cup, the trigger was touch, and > it was set to be a two-way spell (round trip). > > I think the FAQs cover the speculations on Portkeys, if that one's up and > running; it may also be discussed in the Lexicon. > > ~Amanda OK But why would Moody/Crouch set the Portkey for a return trip? I don't think he'd want Harry to return. That's why I think that the combination of the ghosts and the power of the phoenix turned the cup back into a portkey giving Harry a chance to escape. Also, in GoF, they used the portkey once and put it with the rest of the junk objects. So there is a possibility that portkeys are one-way. As for the trigger idea, I agree with you as it's been proven to work either by touch or timing in GoF. Revanto - "Peeves is not a poltergeist. He's just a polter-git!" - From conquistas2000 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 9 04:31:58 2002 From: conquistas2000 at yahoo.com (conquistas2000) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 04:31:58 -0000 Subject: What don't we expected from the Dursleys? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46362 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Liz" wrote: > Here is a quote from that list of things JKR has said about book five > that is on many website: > > "The Dursleys are in the next book, and there's stuff coming with > them that people might not expect." > > There's been a lot of talk in HPFGU semi-recently about the idea that > Petunia or Dudley could be a witch/wizard. That's only one idea of > something unexpected. We should try to brainstorm some other > theories. I have none of my own at the moment; it's late and I need > to go to bed. But I wanted to see if anyone else had come up with > something. > > Thanks, > Lizbot In the past, I think its that one of the Dursleys (Petunia?) will turn out magical. but now, I think it is something that the Dursleys will do that will affect Harry (emotionally) greatly. Treating Harry the way they use to after the events of GoF is cruel, even for the Dursleys. Plus, I cannot see JKR making the Dursleys *THAT NASTY*. So I think the "stuff coming with them (Dursley) that people might not expect" is that they are throwing Harry a birthday party. Or perhaps, they will attend Cedric's funeral with Harry, or maybe start being nice to Harry. Conquistas - Who also feels sorry for Dudley's porcine nature. From saltwater at ev1.net Sat Nov 9 04:53:28 2002 From: saltwater at ev1.net (feumindra) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 04:53:28 -0000 Subject: Who versus who In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46363 If I may, I'd like to suggest my own theory of at least one person who would 'face off'... Sylversong, you were wondering who Hermione would face off with, I would submit to you that it is possible that Hermione may find herself confronting DRACO...and I base this on the Egyptian mythology model. In Egyptian mythos, it is the cat, BAST, who defeats the serpent monster Apophis, and does so routinely. Hermione's familiar is Crookshanks, a cat. NO familiar has been introduced for Draco, other than his eagle owl, but as he is the 'ringleader' of the House of Slytherin, whose emblem is the serpent, it is conceivable in my mind that we may see Hermione confront/defeat/deflect any effort on Draco's part in the future. I refer you to Prisoner of Azkaban where, after Draco has been particularly vile towards Hagrid, Hermione takes the initiative to soundly slap the boy in the face...and what is his reaction? After 2- 3 years of harassing Harry, the Boy Who Defeated Voldemort, an extremely powerful wizard, AND after exhibiting such racism towards someone he thinks is incapable of defending herself, Draco TURNS TAIL AND RUNS without further ado! Cat defeats serpent. Later, and it is only in passing acknowledgement, Hermione tells Harry and Ron that the reason why she fell asleep on her books was because she had been thinking about Malfoy. A cat can be just as cunning as any serpent is thought to be, and the fact that Hermione, with her known characteristics of constant analysis, is actually putting Draco through the processes is NOT a good sign for Draco...whatever the implications may be. Both of them are very intelligent and clever, both of them could be equals on the battlefield. This, of course, leads me to observe that in GoF, Draco acts just as oddly towards Harry, Ron and Hermione in the most traumatic event of their young lives, seeing Deatheaters return to use Muggles as playthings...and WARNS OFF the trio. I have several scenarios in mind of why he would choose NOT to hand over Harry and Hermione over to the deatheaters that instant, but I am hoping (desperately...what was it y'all were saying about wanting characters we like to succeed/survive???) I am rambling though. If you couldn't tell, Draco is my favorite character. For the phoenix theme, y'all will now be subjected to yet another Egyptophile, that land that was called Kemet (black earth) or KMT. Y'all may have already covered this, but as I am still playing catch- up, I will stick my neck out and throw in my own observations about my favorite ancient culture (I have a degree in anthropology). Actually, the Phoenix is a Grecian myth about an Egyptian God that has some Persian roots. The Egyptians actually worshipped the Bennu Bird, a heron like species. In my own amateurish meanderings through ancient Egyptian cultures, glyphs and stories, I have seen listed SEVERAL glyphs for several kinds of birds, BUT! there is only ONE special glyp attributed to the Bennu bird, depicted as a rather splendid heron with a great deal of detail. There is some speculation that the species of heron that the bennu was from actually existed, but died out long before the recording of history. My thoughts are that it could have been a brightly colored heron, something we are not used to seeing, as we are more familiar with the Great Blue Heron that exists today (which by the way is also a very splendid creature. My heart thrills every time I see one!) It is possible that Persian elements enters here as a bird of firey gold and red and beautiful plummage, but I am only making wild guesses now. I believe it was Herodotus who related the mythology of the Egyptian bennu bird to the Greeks and refered to it as the Phoenix, a creature that could recreate itself from ashes after a long life. In Egyptian mythology, anthropologists/archaeologists hypothesize that this could be a reference to the heron's morning habits of taking flight at daybreak...or even to the appearance of the Morning Star, Venus. It has been awhile since I have picked up those books, but I thought these things were interesting to share. Hope y'all don't mind me reiteriating what you already know! As for Molly Weasley not working, I do hope the cold vacuum of cyberspace does not lead y'all to take umbrage with my next offer, but as a stay at home mother, I *do* feel the need to point this out: it *is* possible that Molly stays at home BECAUSE SHE WANTS TO. I realize there are quite a few other mothers in this list, and I do not in any way wish to make an issue of whether or not you SHOULD or SHOULD NOT work. I can only speak from my perspective as someone who CHOOSES not to pursue a career and simply be someone to whom my daughter can come home to after school. I cringe at the modern day assumption many have that if a woman is NOT out being SUPERwoman in career and motherhood and life etc, she is not complete or worse, NOT a REAL WOMAN. Molly is the hub of the wheel that is the Weasley family...all Weasley life seems to derive its motion from her presence. Choosing to stay at home because she is HAPPY there should not be out of the realm of consideration. Are women so inured to the possibility of homelife as fulfilling as a highpowered career that the idea that someone would WANT to stay home is virtually impossible???? I'll get off my soap box now. Everyone I have read has had SO MANY insightful, intelligent remarks and thoughts, I dont think I will ever catch up. thank you for letting me join in! best regards to everyone, Sharon Ferguson From saltwater at ev1.net Sat Nov 9 05:45:11 2002 From: saltwater at ev1.net (feumindra) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 05:45:11 -0000 Subject: Who versus who In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46364 > This, of course, leads me to observe that in GoF, Draco acts just as > oddly towards Harry, Ron and Hermione in the most traumatic event of > their young lives, seeing Deatheaters return to use Muggles as > playthings...and WARNS OFF the trio. I have several scenarios in > mind of why he would choose NOT to hand over Harry and Hermione over > to the deatheaters that instant, but I am hoping (desperately...what > was it y'all were saying about wanting characters we like to > succeed/survive???) > OOOOOPS!!! I didn't finish the sentence!! I meant to say, I am hoping that it is because he is beginning to separate himself from his father's ideals for him, at least. I am also hoping JKR will at least give Draco a sense of independence along the levels of 'well, I may not like Muggles, but I am not going to go around killin them just so someone else can have power.' That would probably be hoping for too much, but my general observation of Snape is along those lines. He exhibits just as much vitriol towards Hermione as Draco does, but he has already shown some signs that he does not align himself with Voldemort. What he has to say about the Malfoys is yet to be discovered, but it has already been noted that he favors Draco out of all the students in the Potions class. There has to be a reason why, but I know there are others who are far better fans of Snape than I to explain that. Oh, and after checking my books, I need to correct myself: it was the Cat who represented Ra/Osiris who defeated Apep. I know these differences dont seem to matter much, but in Egyptian mythology, it was often the case that the same god had different names, interchangeable to the context/situation/time/place they were in. Ra would start out as Khepera in the morning, rolling the dung ball across the sky, but by noon, he had changed into another god (can't think of who at this time of night right now) and in the evening, become Osiris preparing to face the long night of death. The sun rising in the morning was Osiris' triumph over death, and the bennu bird his first motion into the day, transforming immediately into Khepera once more... At least, thats what I understand of Egyptian mythology... see what a pedantic person you have among you???!!! LOL From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 9 06:10:51 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 06:10:51 -0000 Subject: HP and Biblical parallels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46365 I find it slightly amusing that a week ago I was flamed for be "too Christian" and now I am being flamed for not being Christian enough. Caius Marcius wrote: > BTW, as a long time Adult Bible Study teacher, I have been somewhat > distressed over the somewhat flaky Biblical exegesis that has been > posted on HP4GU of late. Revelations is a book that one must > approach on one's knees with both Fear and Trembling but also with > Skepticism and Critical Analysis. Caius, please understand. I hold The Bible with the utmost respect and awe. It is my faith and I deeply believe it. I really do not know life any other way. If my "flaky exegesis" of late has been disrespectful, please know I in *no means* meant for it to be. In a group as this one, it is hard to know just how much everyone else knows. I am *painfully* aware not everyone has the same faith, views, and opinions as I do about religion, so when I wrote the biblical passages earlier, I greatly simplified the scripture for the best of the group. Without going into great details, I was attempting to give a basic main points reading of the anti-christ's purpose and compare them to Voldemort's. After all, this is a *Harry Potter* post site. I only wanted to say that Voldemort does not compare to the anti-christ. And say it quickly and precisely. When Dave first posted about the tribulation and the seven years, he did not know, nor did I think he intended, a biblical breakdown of how the number seven is symbolic. All he wanted to know is whether the seven years of the tribulation somehow mirrors the seven years of school at Hogwarts. I could of gone into the seven seals and seven bowls of God, but they had no parallel to Harry Potter's world. There was no reason to post that information. And from my reading for the Harry Potter text and Revelations, the seven years of school and years of the tribulation do not parallel. It is just a numerical coincidence. Just as the seven years of the British school system and the seven years of the tribulation are a coincidence. After all, when does the number seven come up in the books really? Ok so there is seven members of a Quidditch team. But when else? Ok so there is seven obstacles to the mirror room. Fluffy, devil's snare, winged keys, chess set, troll, potion logic, and finally the mirror. Still, is this a conscious doing on JKR's part? I do not see the biblical parallel for it which is what Dave was asking. I can read Greek and can translate the New Testament, so please do not say I am a "flaky exegesis." My favorite religious subject is apologetics, and I have studied it since I was a girl. I am sorry if my faith is different from yours, but Dave asked for a Biblical viewpoint and that is mine. Yes, the events of Revelations can be interpreted many ways. The book *is* rather encrytic. I have heard many, many different interpretations, but the basic view of the anti-Christ character follows what I wrote. Caius also wrote: > The rapturing nonsense which many so-called "Fundamentalists" excite > themselves is a recent innovation, If you disagree with my view of The Bible, then that is perfectly fine. Post a post comparing your views of Revelations to the Harry Potter World. Do not degrade my faith directly. That is unnecessary and rude. Melody From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Sat Nov 9 06:28:26 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 22:28:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [FILKS] "Hermione" and "Ron's Sister" Message-ID: <20021109062826.89372.qmail@web40303.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46366 Lilac, wearing flowing robes in a lovely shade of lilac (of course), is running very fast to try to catch up to the Beatles bandwagon that is passing her by, with two pieces of parchment clutched tightly in her fist. "Wait! I'm coming!" Lilac yells after them, but the music is too loud no one can hear her. Luckily, the wagon is not going too fast, and she catches up after a quarter mile. "There you are, Lilac. Gail told me you were coming." Caius Marcius motions to a seat on the wagon. "So, show us what you got." "Okay, I've got two little ones now, as I've been working on a medley with a theme, but you'll find out about that soon enough. They are two different filks to the same tune, because it's such a short song and I couldn't decide on which one. Here you go..." HERMIONE and RON'S SISTER both to the tune of _Her Majesty_ by the Beatles (yay, I'm on the bandwagon!) ===================================== RON: Hermione's a really smart girl And boy, she's got a lot to say. Hermione's a gutsy kind of girl And she told off Malfoy today. He called her a really foul word And I got myself a belly full of slugs. Hermione's a really good friend And for her I'd belch a million slugs, oh yeah For her I'd belch a million slugs ============================== HARRY: Ron's sister is a really nice girl But she doesn't have a lot to say. Ron's sister is a really quiet girl But she stood up to Malfoy today. She told him to leave me alone and he called her my girlfriend, that slime! Ron's sister ain't my girlfriend, but I'm glad that she is on my side, oh yeah I'm glad that she is on my side. ~Lilac, who is in a very rainy California right now, but hopes to be singing "Here Comes The Sun" very soon... ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Professor, can you show me that blocking thing again?" Lockhart cuffed Harry merrily on the shoulder. "Just do what I did, Harry!" "What, drop my wand?" --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Sat Nov 9 06:45:34 2002 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 06:45:34 -0000 Subject: Ron, Arthurs lance Re: Arthurian Allusions in "Harry Potter" In-Reply-To: <20021108190631.96139.qmail@web40609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46367 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Patricia Morrison wrote: > arcum wrote: > > >I personally believe it'll be Arthur or Ron who does Lucius in. King > >Arthur did in Lucius, originally, and his lance was named Ron. Of > >course, I also suspect Percy and Ginny are short for Percival (Sir > >Percival), and Genevieve (alt form of Guinevere). > > > He magically comes into possession of a magical sword that both > enables him to defeat his enemies and confirms him as the true Heir. > (Sorry, never heard of Arthur's lance being called "Ron"...there is > an Irish word ron, with an accent aigu over the o, pronounced rone > and meaning "seal", like, you know, the marine creature. > As far as Ron being Arthur's lance, I saw it in Bullfinch's "The Age of Chivalry": "Arthur himself," as Geoffrey of Monmouth relates, "dressed in a breastplate worthy of so great a king, places on his head a golden helmet engraved with the semblance of a dragon. Over his shoulders he throws his shield called Priwen, on which a picture of the Holy Virgin constantly recalled her to his memory. Girt with Caliburn, a most excellent sword, and fabricated in the isle of Avalon, he graces his right hand with the lance named Ron. This was a long and broad spear, well contrived for slaughter. I also saw this refernced elsewhere, but can't recall where... --Arcum From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Sat Nov 9 06:45:47 2002 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 06:45:47 -0000 Subject: Ron, Arthurs lance Re: Arthurian Allusions in "Harry Potter" In-Reply-To: <20021108190631.96139.qmail@web40609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46368 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Patricia Morrison wrote: > arcum wrote: > > >I personally believe it'll be Arthur or Ron who does Lucius in. King > >Arthur did in Lucius, originally, and his lance was named Ron. Of > >course, I also suspect Percy and Ginny are short for Percival (Sir > >Percival), and Genevieve (alt form of Guinevere). > > > He magically comes into possession of a magical sword that both > enables him to defeat his enemies and confirms him as the true Heir. > (Sorry, never heard of Arthur's lance being called "Ron"...there is > an Irish word ron, with an accent aigu over the o, pronounced rone > and meaning "seal", like, you know, the marine creature. > As far as Ron being Arthur's lance, I saw it in Bullfinch's "The Age of Chivalry": "Arthur himself," as Geoffrey of Monmouth relates, "dressed in a breastplate worthy of so great a king, places on his head a golden helmet engraved with the semblance of a dragon. Over his shoulders he throws his shield called Priwen, on which a picture of the Holy Virgin constantly recalled her to his memory. Girt with Caliburn, a most excellent sword, and fabricated in the isle of Avalon, he graces his right hand with the lance named Ron. This was a long and broad spear, well contrived for slaughter. I also saw this referenced elsewhere, but can't recall where... --Arcum From voldemort at tut.by Sat Nov 9 08:09:29 2002 From: voldemort at tut.by (Sasha HP) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 10:09:29 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Foe Glass [was: Antichrist...] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1271414559.20021109100929@tut.by> No: HPFGUIDX 46369 Greetings! > Melody wrote: M> Also, the Foe-Glass comes to mind. I firmly believe M> magical objects do not lie (maybe that is what I *want* M> to believe, but I see no reason for them to lie). So M> since Dumbledore, Snape, and McGonagall were in the M> glass, and the glass belonged to Crouch Jr whose they saw M> as evil for taking Harry away from safety, I would say it M> is very clear that Dumbledore is not on evil's side. M> Maybe that is a large jump and great assumption on my M> part, but to me it is very clear. That's where an idea had struck me. Yes, let's believe that magical objects do not lie (though they may be wrong, like the Tri-Wiz-Cup). So what one sees in the Foe Glass are his enemies lurking around. What everyone seems to have missed, is that Dumbledore, Snape and McGonagall are what *Harry* sees in the Foe Glass, not what Barty does. Now THAT is something to think about... ;) Sincerely yours, Alexander Lomski, Gryffindor/Slytherin crossbreed, always happy to throw weird ideas into community. Saturday, November 9, 2002, 10:06 local time (GMT+2:00) From catlady at wicca.net Sat Nov 9 11:30:54 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 11:30:54 -0000 Subject: Silver hand / Homorphus/ who dies? / prefects / Hogwarts tuition? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46370 Lots of people have written that they think Pettigrew's silver hand will kill Lupin. JKR has not revealed anything about whether Potterverse werewolves are damaged by silver -- it is not at all mentioned in FABULOUS BEASTS. I expect she will kill Lupin (and I will cry, as he is my favorite character and very much deserves to have SOME happiness in his life!) but I doubt it will be the silver hand. Sian/Freiol asked: << so how come [the Homorphus] charm has never been performed on Lupin? It would make his life a whole lot easier if he would stay human all the time. >> Steve bboy_mn stated my own current belief, that Homorphus only turns a werewolf back into human form for a moment, long enough to identify the person -- I fear that the villagers used this information to kill the guy when he was human and relatively defenseless, say at New Moon, rather than to be make sure he was locked into a cage every month before Full Moon rose. However, it seems no one has yet mentioned my previous theory, that Homorphus is permanent has dreadful side effects, similar to Real Life physical brain damage, so the person could lose their intelligence, their memory, even the ability to breathe without gadgets. Lizbot said: << I asked this question on here myself, about six months ago. S everal people told me that JKR said, in an interview when asked about this, that Lockhart was just lying. >> I don't recall ever having read before that JKR was asked about Homorphus, and The Goat Pad turned up no matches for "Homorphus". Are you sure you aren't thinking of: blaise_42 asks: In Chamber of Secrets, Hagrid is supposed to have raised werewolf cubs under his bed. Are these the same kind of werewolves as Professor Lupin? jkrowling_bn: no... Riddle was telling lies about Hagrid, just slandering him http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/ http://www.yahooligans.com/content/chat/jkrowlingchat.html Dan Delaney Dionysus wrote: << How would Hermione's death be the "end of an era"? >> It would definitely be the end of an era for Harry, and for the fans: the end of the era of The Trio, The Three Friends. Darla wrote: << But a lot of people talk about prefects as if only one boy/girl can be a prefect from each house. help? >> The text gives the impression that Hogwarts chooses one boy and one girl prefect from each House for fifth year, sixth year, and seventh year (the Head Boy and the Head Girl are two of the seventh year prefects). That makes it strange that Mrs Weasley said: "I notice they haven't made you two prefects." At most ONE of the two could have been made prefect, unless Hogwarts rules make an exception for twins. Carol Bainbridge wrote: << do we know what, if anything, Hogwarts costs? What the tuition is? >> I feel sure that Hogwarts doesn't charge any tuition (that would be another reason why Hermione's parents were pleased to send her there) and doesn't charge for room & board. After all, they have had 1000 years to grow their endowment. From catlady at wicca.net Sat Nov 9 12:23:00 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 12:23:00 -0000 Subject: WW versus MW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46371 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: << I find it slightly amusing that a week ago I was flamed for be "too Christian" and now I am being flamed for not being Christian enough. >> Oh, dear, Melody, I *really* didn't want to make you feel like you were being flamed; I *tried* to be careful to choose gentle words... I shouldn't have said anything, even if I hadn't hurt your feelings: Pip!Squeak has already called me on the carpet for it. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bluesqueak" wrote: << Melody was replying to a post or two of mine (URLS snipped), in the first of which I mentioned several times that the argument was being based on Christian Theology (and quoting New Testament passages is also a pretty good clue that we're relating HP to Christianity). >> Yes, I know. I read them and thought they were very clever, especially "[It is a huge relief to me that God apparently loves a smartarse ;-) ]". I wish I could put into words just what it was that bothered me about Melody's post. I shouldn't have said anything: "Whereof one cannot speak, one should keep silent." << I remember a particularly good post once where the (Buddhist) poster discussed whether Dumbledore was in a Buddhist state of enlightenment. >> Can you please point me to that point, as the subject is very interesting to me and I don't remember having read it. It might be on some list other than this one, or it might be on this list and I read it and I am suffering from memory failure, which happens more and more often... I had written: << [Dumbledore thinks] people don't *need* to defeat Voldemort (or whatever current great Dark Wizard), they need to try their damndest to defeat him honorably and leave stories that will encourage future generations to fight heroically against Dark Wizards. >> Pip!Squeak replid: << Despite this, he has tried like heck to keep Harry alive, and is currently trying hard to defeat Voldemort. >> "try their damndest" "tried like heck" "trying hard". That sounds like we agree so far. << Going back to on-topic canon, how happy do you think Lily would have been had she, for example, decided to accept Voldemort's offer of sparing her life if she would only stand aside and let him kill Harry? I think Lily's sacrifice was partly a decision that she was not going to stand by while her son was killed - she would far rather *die*, even if it only delayed Harry's death by seconds. Fighting for her son's life was more important to her than staying alive. >> I am *sure* that Lily would *rather* have not had to make that choice. JKR has not yet revealed what Lily was doing before she went into hiding, but I am sure she was working VERY hard to defeat (hopefully destroy) Voldemort and hoping that she, her son, her husband, and all their friends would be left alive after the victory -- that they all would "live happily ever after". I don't know if she would have been depressed by the thought that even if her side won and survived and spent the rest of their lives happily fighting stupid politicians and educating wizards about tolerance, inevitably equally powerful and equally evil Dark Wizards would keep arising every century or so, and sometimes one of them would win and plunge the wizarding world into many centuries of tyranny and terror. *I* would be depressed about it. I *am* depressed by it, the Muggle analogs anyway. From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Sat Nov 9 12:23:21 2002 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (edisbevan) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 12:23:21 -0000 Subject: Hatchet job on Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46372 A piece in todays (9 Nov 2002) Slate magazine assessing Harry Potters character. Briefy, and invoking canon events Chris Suellentrop claims to 'expose Harry Potter for the Fraud he is' specifically a: Pampered Jock Patsy Trust Fund Brat. The basic argument is that Harry Potter is a fraud, and the cult that has risen around him is based on a lie. To find the piece go to http://slate.msn.com/ current url http://slate.msn.com/?id=2073627 If you need to search the archive try putting in suellentrop as search term and sorting results by date for 8.11.2002 piece. Chris Suellentrop is Slate's deputy Washington bureau chief. You can e-mail him at ... well, see the foot of the SLATE page. Text includes: >>>> Like most heroes, Harry Potter possesses the requisite Boy Scout virtues: trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. But so do lots of boys and girls, and they don't get books and movies named after them. Why isn't the movie that comes out next week titled Ron Weasley and the Chamber of Secrets? Why isn't its sequel dubbed Hermione Granger and the Prisoner of Azkaban? Why Harry? What makes him so special? Simple: He's a glory hog who unfairly receives credit for the accomplishments of others and who skates through school by taking advantage of his inherited wealth and his establishment connections. Harry Potter is no braver than his best friend, Ron Weasley, just richer and better-connected. Harry's other good friend, Hermione Granger, is smarter and a better student. The one thing Harry excels at is the sport of Quidditch, and his pampered-jock status allows him to slide in his studies, as long as he brings the school glory on the playing field. But as Charles Barkley long ago noted, being a good athlete doesn't make you a role model. <<< Dont mail me on this! Im just the messenger Edis From heidit at netbox.com Sat Nov 9 14:47:51 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 14:47:51 -0000 Subject: On the subject of the portkey/triwizard cup... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46373 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amanda Geist" wrote: > > It has been theorized (by me, I know for certain, but I think a few > others, > > too) that the Portkey spell has variables which the caster inserts. > I > > believe that the spell allows the caster to set the "trigger" which > will > > activate the Portkey function of the object in question. In the > case of the > > Quidditch Cup portkeys, the trigger was a particular time, and it > was a > > one-way spell. In the case of the Triwizard Cup, the trigger was > touch, and > > it was set to be a two-way spell (round trip). --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "revanto" wrote: > OK But why would Moody/Crouch set the Portkey for a return trip? I > don't think he'd want Harry to return. That's why I think that the > combination of the ghosts and the power of the phoenix turned the cup > back into a portkey giving Harry a chance to escape. But the ghosts, IIRC, don't go near the portkey cup, and I don't think they have the power to change matter, per se, which is what altering the charm on the portkey would require. I mean, if they could do magic, then there are other things they could do, like Expelliarmus the Death Eaters or even take their masks away to reveal their faces, or obliviate a few memories. It's more likely to be as Amanda said, or a close alternative - some people, including myself, have argued over the years that Moody inserted a "break" into the portkey's directional trigger, so that when it was touched, it would send the Champion to the graveyard, but another touch would bring the one who touched it to the Quidditch field again, perhaps to attack, or perhaps to simply bring Harry's lifeless body back to the pitch, to terrify the spectators. It's possible that Voldemort wouldn't've even traveled back with Harry - that they just would've sent dead Harry back with no explanation for what happened, so Voldemort could build his power in secret and not have to deal immediately with a handful vs. crowd battle. The thing is, without knowing exactly how a portkey works, there's no way for us to come up with a definative answer as to exactly how Moody tampered with it, and what he expected it to do. However, I think the fact that he was still lurking around the pitch indicated that he was waiting for something to happen *at* the pitch. Otherwise, why not leave Hogwarts grounds and go to his master's side, if he was so confident of Voldemort's victory? Heidi http://www.hp2003.org Nimbus - 2003 :: the first international Harry Potter symposium From anakinbester at hotmail.com Sat Nov 9 15:02:26 2002 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 15:02:26 -0000 Subject: Silver hand / Homorphus/ who dies? / prefects / Hogwarts tuition? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46374 "Catlady wrote: > Lots of people have written that they think Pettigrew's silver > hand will kill Lupin. JKR has not revealed anything about whether > Potterverse werewolves are damaged by silver -- it is not at all > mentioned in FABULOUS BEASTS. I expect she will kill Lupin (and I will > cry, as he is my favorite character and very much deserves to have > SOME happiness in his life!) but I doubt it will be the silver hand. I actually agree with this some what. However, Personally, I'd be surprised if she discarded the idea that silver is dangerous to werewolves. This seems such a large part of their myth. But you're right, it wasn't mentioned in Fantastic Beasts, when it did mention such things as a rooster being fatal to a Basilsk (I say that, but now I'm no longer sure . . . it did didn't it?) Then again, that book was hardly extensive. So just because it doens't say something, I'm not going to discount it as a possibility. Anyway, why I agree with you though, is that I don't think Peter will do it. I just don't think Peter could kill Remus face to face. (in my fluffy bunny world view, at least) I do, however, think that will come up, and Peter will be faced with that choice. Then he won't kill Remus, we'll all be relieved, and Remus will die later. Kinda like Spock getting that fake death in Wrath of Kahn to throw everyone off. I'm sure I'm totally off though. *L* I'm breaking my general rule about trying not to predict things. It would make more since for Peter to have a show down with Sirius, but then if Peter had the sense god gave gravel, he should just run and hide from Sirius! > > Steve bboy_mn stated my own current belief, that Homorphus only turns > a werewolf back into human form for a moment, long enough to identify > the person I find that the most likely theory. I'm not sure if JKR said he was lying or not, but I tend to think he wasn't. Simply because most people didn't seem to realize he was a fraud. However, if Lockhart is blatently making up spells in his books, someone would have figured him out as a fraud much earlier. Plus, if he calimed to have come up with such a spell, I'm sure other wizards would want to see it and learn it, since it would be extremely effective. Again, he'd be caught in a lie. So I think there is such a spell, however, it does no long term good for the werewolf. I'm sure it's also extremely complex, or Lockhart wouldn't brag about it. -Ani Look, I talked about something other than Peter for half a post ^^ From i_karkaroff at yahoo.ca Sat Nov 9 12:18:50 2002 From: i_karkaroff at yahoo.ca (i_karkaroff) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 12:18:50 -0000 Subject: Antichrist!(insert main character here) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46375 Technically it's still possible for Voldemort to become an Anti- Christ parallel, if dramatically unlikely. Fudge's suppression of information relating to his activities gives everyone's favourite Dark Lord a lot of room to maneuver, and if he's smart, he'll build up massive support while he can by pushing the law-and-order hot button. For him to be so politically effective and influential in the first place, he would have had to have a vast support system. The seeds are still there - most wizards don't seem to care for, or at least care _about_ Muggles and this is an open door. He still has the rest of the series to Get Smart and start buttering up the populace, but I think we all know that's not how it's going to turn out. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > Ok, I see what your saying. There could be closet-Voldie supporters > that run under radar. Big possibility. We have, after all, only > heard from the big supports of both sides. There had to be a few > country wizards and witches that had a poster of Voldie on a back wall. *nod* Actually I think it essential that there were lesser supporters of Voldemort because JKR seems to be drawing the DEs as the terrorists of the WW. Terrorism doesn't spring up out a vacuum - it's usually based on legitimate grievances, but taken to an extreme and usually has a significant amount of popular support. > I guess the question is why are the Death Eaters followers of > Voldemort? What would they have to gain? Don't they know evil > *always* looses to good? Have they not studied history? Well that >is a possibility with the way Prof. Binns teaches, and who know how >long that ghost has been at Hogwarts. No, they don't know that evil always loses to good because, well, that's a literary clich?, not a historical fact. And I'd have to say it's very likely the DEs don't _know_ they're in a book ;) History does not teach us anything like what you've posited, rather it teaches us that conflicts come and go. Stuff happens. Then more stuff happens. Proper history should be taught without moral judgments, because it's always more complicated than you suggest. Why do the DEs follow Voldemort? Probably because they _do_ have something to gain, should his goals be accomplished. The greatest motivators are threats to wealth, religion, family and culture. Obviously the DEs, who perceive Muggles as a threat, are operating under several of these motivators. They should also expect to have positions of high status in Voldemort's New World Order. >Now it seems the choice of the masses is to >align themselves with Voldemort by leaving him alone or be tortured >and killed. It was not a attempt on Voldemort's part to bring >supports on his rhetoric. Only on the quickness of his death happy >wand. How do we know that Voldemort didn't try to bring over the masses with rhetoric? What _was_ Riddle doing all those years? And you don't think that Lucius Malfoy and Voldemort's other mouthpieces aren't trying (albeit unsuccessfully) to woo the masses? I'd argue that his 'death-happy wand' is actually harmful to his campaign. People are only ignoring him because they don't want their peaceful lives disrupted and they'll keep on ignoring him until his presence is shoved in their faces. > The anti-christ bewitches (hehe) the world to believe his intentions > are good, and his goals are the ideals to attain. That is when evil > really takes over. When it reaches into the mind and convinces the > world it is not evil. It seems to me that Voldie has not figured >that fact out. Hitler did. He brainwashed a nation. Voldie seems >to not have such a campaign. Well actually he didn't brainwash a nation, he just gave the people someone to blame for their problems by tapping into an existing prejudice, which would be soooo easy for Voldemort to do a la the Muggles. But. He's not going to. He strikes me as just a bit too wacky to get it together and really lead an effective coup. I have to agree with Melody that Voldemort isn't an Anti-Christ parallel. He could be, but he just won't make over those hurdles, the poor guy. ;) ~MartianHousecat From revanto at yahoo.com Sat Nov 9 12:48:44 2002 From: revanto at yahoo.com (revanto) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 12:48:44 -0000 Subject: Foe Glass reveals (was: Antichrist!(insert main character here)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46376 > Melody wrote: > > Also, the Foe-Glass comes to mind. I firmly believe magical objects > > do not lie (maybe that is what I *want* to believe, but I see no > > reason for them to lie). > Julie wrote: > Ah yes, the foe glass . . . I've been wondering about that > thing . . . just why did Snape have to peer into it? > He looks at Snape with apprehension in his eyes when he > sends him off for some mysterious task . . . We don't know why > Dumbledore trusts him (again that little beast bit ;o) ) And look > around, most close people to Dumbledore don't even question him, just > go out and do the task, at least when it comes down to it. > > > Just my opinion :o) Actually, the foe glass brings an interesting point on how much Snape can be trusted. Since Snape showed up in the glass, there is a possibilty that since Moody/Crouch was on Voldy's side that Snape is his foe meaning that he's against Voldy (Snape, that is). Even though Snape is nasty, greasy git, there's probably alot more to him than meets the eye (I mean more than what has been revealed in the books) Oh and I think that Voldy will be defeated in Book 7 and Dumbledore will give him a second chance by making him a cleaner in Hogwarts castle... :P or he'll be a teacher of the "Defense against me" class. Revanto - "A dragon incinerated my homework!" From revanto at yahoo.com Sat Nov 9 13:57:46 2002 From: revanto at yahoo.com (revanto) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 13:57:46 -0000 Subject: Concerning the houses Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46377 I was thinking about how the houses seem to incorporate certain characteristics and that there has to be a possibility that even though (for example)a Slytherin is in that house, doesn't mean that they will automatically turn out evil. I'm sure that there are some good Slytherins who just happen to be very ambitious and sneaky yet not willing to turn to the "Dark Side". That also means that it could work for any house. Look at Wormtail. Although, I must admit it is mainly from fear. I'd also love to see JK delve more into Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw. They seem to be considered sideline houses. I'd love to get more info on their common rooms, too. Maybe Harry could get into his invisibility cloak and get a peek into them (and also a peek at Cho! :P) Finally, who's in charge of Ravenclaw house? I don't remember any reference of who's in charge there. You have McGonagall/Gryffindor, Snape/Slytherin and Sprout/Hufflepuff but that's all I know. Maybe Doris Crockford is in charge of Ravenclaw.... Revanto - "I'm wearing invisibility robes. The robes are invisible but I'm not." - From hyperpuppy at clarityconnect.com Sat Nov 9 14:07:36 2002 From: hyperpuppy at clarityconnect.com (Joyce) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 09:07:36 -0500 Subject: The Chamber of Skeptics Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20021109081541.00a6d900@mail.clarityconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46378 I got this article in my email a few days ago from CSICOP (It is an organization that investigates claims of the paranormal with a skeptic's eye) about the Harry Potter books. Most skeptics dismiss the books without a second glance. From the article: -------- -------- "When it comes to J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter series, it's probably fair to say that card-carrying skeptics, not all but certainly many of them, have tended to view the books with well, skepticism. My good friend Matt Nisbet's "Generation sXeptic" column on this website, for instance, once mentioned the Harry Potter "fantasy yarns" in the same breath as the New Age self-help manual Who Moved My Cheese?" -------- "The underlying concern here seems to be that there's something amiss with our culture if even our most popular and dominant fictional narratives so heavily emphasize the supernatural." -------- "Certainly Rowling's books are full of magic and fantastic creatures; and as I've written elsewhere, they also stack the deck against ordinary "Muggles" (yes, skeptics are most definitely Muggles). Yet the books' clever plotting, playful charm, and knowing parallels to our own reality?Quidditch equals British football, Hogwarts is a boarding school, and so on?have been equally crucial to their literary success." -------- "And not only does Harry flout rules; by doing so he regularly ends up saving the day. Clearly, Rowling's books promote individualism, independent thought, and even irreverence, attributes that feed into the skeptical outlook. In fact, it's hard to think of a better literary affirmation of Carl Sagan's mantra that arguments from authority carry no weight in science than the way Harry and his friends behave in J.K. Rowling's novels." -------- -------- As a skeptic and unashamed Muggle who loves Harry Potter, I was most pleased with the article and wanted to share with the class. This shows why even us Skeptics (Muggles) can enjoy it. I am nuts about the books. *eye squint* This (along with finally finding adults to discuss the book with) makes me feel a little less alone. :o) This is the article in CSICOP: http://www.csicop.org/doubtandabout/harrypotter/index.html The enjoyable Washington Post article written by the same author as referenced ("as I've written elsewhere") above: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20034-2002Oct25.html J- (aka c-toast and hyperpuppy) From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 9 14:11:30 2002 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 14:11:30 -0000 Subject: Foe Glass [was: Antichrist...] In-Reply-To: <1271414559.20021109100929@tut.by> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46379 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sasha HP wrote: > Greetings! > > > Melody wrote: > > M> Also, the Foe-Glass comes to mind. I firmly believe > M> magical objects do not lie (maybe that is what I *want* > M> to believe, but I see no reason for them to lie). So > M> since Dumbledore, Snape, and McGonagall were in the > M> glass, and the glass belonged to Crouch Jr whose they saw > M> as evil for taking Harry away from safety, I would say it > M> is very clear that Dumbledore is not on evil's side. > M> Maybe that is a large jump and great assumption on my > M> part, but to me it is very clear. > > That's where an idea had struck me. Yes, let's believe > that magical objects do not lie (though they may be wrong, > like the Tri-Wiz-Cup). So what one sees in the Foe Glass are > his enemies lurking around. > > What everyone seems to have missed, is that Dumbledore, > Snape and McGonagall are what *Harry* sees in the Foe Glass, > not what Barty does. > > Now THAT is something to think about... ;) Okay, thinking.... :-) Perhaps the foe glass is not like, say, the Mirror of Erised, which automatically "retunes" itself for each observer. Instead, it may be like a radio, which is permanently locked on one "station" until retuned. In other words, Barty Crouch Jr. "tuned" the foe glass for himself. Harry was seeing the foes of Crouch, and so was Snape when he looked at it. If it automatically "retuned," Harry would certainly see Moody!Crouch instead of, or in addition too, Dumbledore, Snape, and McGonagall. aja_1991 From hyperpuppy at clarityconnect.com Sat Nov 9 16:04:01 2002 From: hyperpuppy at clarityconnect.com (Joyce) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 11:04:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Concerning the houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20021109110231.00a6a160@mail.clarityconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46380 At 08:57 AM 09-11-02, Revanto wrote: >Finally, who's in charge of Ravenclaw house? I don't remember any >reference of who's in charge there. You have McGonagall/Gryffindor, >Snape/Slytherin and Sprout/Hufflepuff but that's all I know. Prof. Flitwick is in charge of Ravenclaw. Fits. :o) J- From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 9 16:48:39 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 16:48:39 -0000 Subject: Voldie Intent (was: Anti-christ!whatever) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46381 MartianHousecat wrote: > Technically it's still possible for Voldemort to become an Anti- > Christ parallel, if dramatically unlikely. Fudge's suppression of > information relating to his activities gives everyone's favourite > Dark Lord a lot of room to maneuver, and if he's smart, he'll build > up massive support while he can by pushing the law-and-order hot > button. Your post started me thinking. I understand what Richelle and you are trying to say. We don't know what Voldie's plan for the WW. We know he wants to be immortal and take over the world, but obviously, he does not want to rule just over a few still alive wizards. Pip has pointed out Voldemort is quite smart and meticulous in his planning. He is also patient, which is a good virtue to have in a dark lord. From the graveyard, we know he desires to realign with the dementors and giants. I doubt their purpose is to help in the landscaping of Voldemort City. So we are left to wonder why he wants them. It can be two possibilities: (a) Voldemort wants to persecute all those who are against his taking over the world and having mean, killing happy beasts aid in his plan. Thus everyone lets him take over out of fear. -or- (b) Voldemort wants to use the dementors and giants in a way to make the WW think the "good guys" are bringing about the carnage. It is their doing that the dementors and giants are causing so much trouble; therefore, the "good guys" should be restricted. Thus everyone thinks Voldemort has the better grip on the WW and should rule over it. Hmm, did that make any sense? Basically, Voldemort is twisting his intent behind the prejudices and viewpoints of the common wizards. It is the political thing to do as well. We know Voldemort is smart enough to figure this out. I wrote: >>I guess the question is why are the Death Eaters followers of >>Voldemort? What would they have to gain? Don't they know evil >>*always* looses to good? Have they not studied history? Well that >>is a possibility with the way Prof. Binns teaches, and who know how >>long that ghost has been at Hogwarts. MartianHousecat pointed out: >No, they don't know that evil always loses to good because, well, >that's a literary clich?, not a historical fact. And I'd have to >say it's very likely the DEs don't _know_ they're in a book ;) Sorry, I should of put a sarcastic smile note in there. I did not mean to say directly that good always wins. Over time we tend to believe it (or rather hope it), but it is definitely not true. From an American perspective, we believe the "good guys" won the Revolutionary War. I'm sure the Brits have something to say about that. ;) > Why do the DEs follow Voldemort? Probably because they _do_ have > something to gain, should his goals be accomplished. The greatest > motivators are threats to wealth, religion, family and culture. I would say the death-eaters follow Voldemort because he has strong coat tails. When you are not powerful enough to accomplish the takes you want, then you align yourself with people who can raise you up to the power you desire. I think that, with a side of fear, is the motivation of the death-eaters. Do they follow him for his ideals? Possibly. I don't think they all are little Voldemort disciples, but I am sure a few are. >I'd argue that his 'death-happy wand' is actually harmful to his >campaign. People are only ignoring him because they don't want their >peaceful lives disrupted and they'll keep on ignoring him until his >presence is shoved in their faces. Um, that was what I was trying to say as well. Guess it got a bit muddled. The fact he is raping and pillaging the WW into a state of fear and paranoia was not really helping his case of "wooing" followers and supporters. No one likes to see their neighbor die. His attempt to bring followers so far are just bringing the piddly ones that are too weak to oppose him. > Well actually he [Hitler] didn't brainwash a nation, he just gave > the people someone to blame for their problems by tapping into an > existing prejudice, which would be soooo easy for Voldemort to do a > la the Muggles. But. He's not going to. He strikes me as just a > bit too wacky to get it together and really lead an effective coup. Oooo, good point. I am not a WWII buff, so I am sorry to glaze over that obvious point. "Brainwashing" was too harsh a term really on my point. I'm sorry. I meant no ill will. But you point is what made me think of the reasons for the dementors and giants I wrote above. Voldemort is trying to place blame on the "good side" to bring the WW against them. Melody who wants everyone to note I did not reference to The Bible once in this post, thank you very much :) From editor at texas.net Sat Nov 9 17:12:43 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 11:12:43 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: On the subject of the portkey/triwizard cup... References: Message-ID: <00a001c28813$385d7400$ee04a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46382 Okay. Enough of this. I have only so much of my life left to live. Revanto asked: > OK But why would Moody/Crouch set the Portkey for a return trip? I > don't think he'd want Harry to return. That's why I think that the > combination of the ghosts and the power of the phoenix turned the cup > back into a portkey giving Harry a chance to escape. Also, in GoF, > they used the portkey once and put it with the rest of the junk > objects. So there is a possibility that portkeys are one-way. As for > the trigger idea, I agree with you as it's been proven to work either > by touch or timing in GoF. Harry wasn't supposed to return. He wasn't supposed to be able to. He was supposed to be *dead.* I believe the return trip was intended to be taken by Voldemort and the DeathEaters who responded, to wreak havoc. I have not much of a life. But I spent an unreclaimable hour or so of it on you (for the search function in Yahoo groups seriously biteth) and found you some message numbers of my posts on the subject. In doing so, I ignored or bypassed literally *hundreds* of other posts that came up for a search on "portkey," and I apologize to the others who have held forth, for ignoring their opinions. Revento, to access any of these, go to the home site of the group, click on "Messages" in the column on the left-hand side, and when the listing appears, look in the teal-colored bar running across the page. There will be a box on the right-hand side called "Msg #"; type the number you desire in and hit "Go." You will be portkeyed to the message. I believe when the message comes up, the replies to it show up beneath it, too, allowing exploration of the thread (a bit). 40439 -- In which I restate my earlier postulations, in a more consolidated format 24728 -- (references earlier message numbers, in just such a post as this) Snippet --> And yet more ancient history: Naama asked the question in 6231 in November 2000 and started a lengthy thread called "portkey conundrum," In 5928, 2512, and 2427 we debated why we thought the cup portkey worked at a touch. In 9882 (at the end) and 9254, I put forward much the same theory that Trina did in hers, about why go through the whole Triwizard Tourney hoo-ha to get Harry to Voldemort, and when Trina posted it we discussed it in more depth. 14106 -- (references earlier message numbers, in just such a post as this): Snippet --> Here's the message numbers for why we (I?) thought the cup portkey worked at a touch: 5928, 2512, 2427. Here's the message numbers where I am putting forward the same theory Trina (?) or somebody just did, about why go through the whole Triwizard Tourney hoo-ha to get Harry to Voldemort: 9882 (at the end) & 9254. And a random message-number note, which would help answer a lot of the other stuff you've been posting--the VFAQs, for this and other general questions, was most recently posted to the main list in message 45999. However, if spending your life watching Yahoomort (slowly) think is not for you, I also found you some links. These should be "live," you only have to click on them: 1. http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/devices.html#PORTKEYS 2. This is the Mysteries & Inconsistencies FAQ: discussion of the Portkey is not quite halfway down: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/mysteries.html 3. Here's an essay on the subject, also in the Lexicon (sounds terribly familiar): http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/why_cup.html And I cannot stress strongly enough that you play in the Lexicon and/or read through the bigfile, for some other questions you have asked are easily found there. Here's the main Lexicon URL: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/index.html and the VFAQs (two versions) and the bigfile are the third, fourth, and fifth items at this URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Enjoy. ~Amandageist, older by the minute From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 9 17:15:58 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 17:15:58 -0000 Subject: Foe Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46383 Alexander Lomski wrote: > > What everyone seems to have missed, is that Dumbledore, > > Snape and McGonagall are what *Harry* sees in the Foe Glass, > > not what Barty does. aja_1991 wrote: > Perhaps the foe glass is not like, say, the Mirror of Erised, which > automatically "retunes" itself for each observer. Instead, it may > be like a radio, which is permanently locked on one "station" until > retuned. In other words, Barty Crouch Jr. "tuned" the foe glass for > himself. Aja, I like your "tuned" view-point. That was my impression as well. Since Barty owned the glass, and the glass is a magical object that sees the truth not his poly-juice cover, the glass reflects his foes. If it is just whoever looks in the glass sees their foes, then when Snape looked in the foe-glass, he saw McG, Dumb, *and* himself. Now, it is possible to be a foe against oneself, but since it was just said that Harry saw the three profs int eh glass and then Snape saw the same three, I think it is meant to say that the Foe-Glass reflects the foes of the owner not the looker. My question is then why was Harry not in the glass? Does it only matter if the foe is mentally against the direct person not the ideals of the person? The three profs were after Barty Jr. Harry did not know Barty Jr. was the man before him, so he was not a foe of him as yet. That is the only way I can see why Harry was not in the glass as well. Remember the map? Well of course, you do, but the map in Snape's hand showed Snape what he would read on the map. Harry saw the words as well even though they were not intended to him. Snape had the map in his hands and it was his command that caused the map to insult him. So, in the case of the magical object Foe-Glass, I say it is not in the eye of the beholder, but the hand of the possessor. Melody From voldemort at tut.by Sat Nov 9 17:30:08 2002 From: voldemort at tut.by (Sasha HP) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 19:30:08 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldie Intent (was: Anti-christ!whatever) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1358572837.20021109193008@tut.by> No: HPFGUIDX 46384 Greetings! > Melody wrote: M> Sorry, I should of put a sarcastic smile note in there. I M> did not mean to say directly that good always wins. Over M> time we tend to believe it (or rather hope it), but it is M> definitely not true. From an American perspective, we M> believe the "good guys" won the Revolutionary War. I'm M> sure the Brits have something to say about that. ;) Good guys always win because it's winners who write the history. This is generally true for all democracies (who are forced to depict the enemy as the epitome of evil for PR reasons), and this is especially true for Americans (who have employed this as an integral part of their military strategy since the Civil War). Indeed, unreasonable belief that "Good wins" is a part of Western mentality. But, "subconscious belief in the inevitability of victory, shared by neutral nations, is a real strategic force we must not dismiss". Phrase was said by a Russian strategy game player who was playing Hitler in a WWII game. Voldemort has the same kind of problem. *Everybody* in the WW, including Voldemort himself, subconsciously believes that Voldemort is *doomed* to fall. All that goes below is based on still unaccepted social and psychological theories. There is a way around this, though. Leader of the side which is depicted as "evil", *can* negate the effects of this belief by being slightly (or not slightly) insane. IF he manages to completely exclude this weakness from his character AND to induce his insanity on his followers (and through them, to enemies) he can win. These unobvious, purely psychological processes will have their manifestations in the real world through the changes in the probability distribution, as people will subconsciously modify their behavior according to the induced pattern. History gives us many examples of failed attempts to modify the reality in this way, and only a few successful ones. Of course, none of them was deliberate, hence the rarity of success. What will happen when this will be studied and employed consciously is still to be seen... Sincerely yours, Alexander Lomski, Gryffindor/Slytherin crossbreed, always happy to throw weird ideas into community. Saturday, November 9, 2002, 19:07 local time (GMT+2:00) From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sat Nov 9 18:20:39 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 18:20:39 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldie Intent (was: Anti-christ!whatever) References: <1358572837.20021109193008@tut.by> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46385 I'm not convinced that anyone in the WW - except possibuly dumbledore - was convinced that voldie was bound to fall, if anything, quite the opposite. Peter Pettigrew only went to volde because HE belived that Voldie was going to come out on top and most of the WW can't even say his name! Worse, I suspect that there was some thought of 'we're all going to the dark anyway' in the WW after Barty Snr. started allowing the unforgivables to be used. There could have been a thought of 'lets submit quetily. Thoughts? Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amberhillcrest at yahoo.com Sat Nov 9 18:18:44 2002 From: amberhillcrest at yahoo.com (amberhillcrest) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 18:18:44 -0000 Subject: Another Dursley Question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46386 There are several instances in which the Dursleys send Harry gifts. The one that comes to mind is the tissue and I think that they also gave Harry one of Vernon's old socks. I am wondering how the Dursleys got the gifts to Hogarts in the first place. They wouldn't use Owl Post because they don't like magic and even if they didn't feel that way, they don't even have an Owl with which to send anything. They can't use regular mail because as Hermione explained, any Muggle who looks at Hogwarts will just see an abandoned house. So, how do they get the gifts to him? I apologize if this has been brought up before. I am trying to make a connection between the gift-giving and the speculation about the role of the Dursleys in Book 5. -Maureen Amber From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 9 18:45:03 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 18:45:03 -0000 Subject: HP and biblical parallels Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46387 Uh. Revelations. The seven years that Harry is at secondary school is almost certainly a coincidence, caused by the majority of British children starting secondary education at 11, and leaving 7 years later if they decide to take the full course. Hogwarts is obviously modelled on an 11 to 18 English/Welsh secondary model, with OWLS at 16 being equivalent to the General Certificate of Secondary Education tests that English and Welsh schoolchildren take at 15 or 16, and NEWTs being equivalent to the Advanced Level tests taken at 17 or 18. (Scottish and Northern Irish children have a slightly different set of tests). JKR has said that anyone who knows Christian Theology knows what's going to happen to Harry. [My apologies ? I keep getting NA screens for http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/index.htm so I can't find the interview reference ? however http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp- srv/style/books/features/rowling1020.htm is a reference to the fact that she was attending Church of Scotland services while writing the books] That doesn't mean she's intending Book 7 to be a `The Last Battle' [C.S. Lewis]. A christian [small c] fate for Harry could involve his dying and rising again, his plain old dying for the sake of saving others and *not* rising again (Lily and James's fate could be described in that way, as they both died in an effort to save someone else ? James died trying to give Lily and Harry time to escape; Lily died deliberately standing in the way of Voldemort as he tried to kill Harry), or some other sacrifice in an effort to save his world. For example, since he and Voldemort are connected, Harry might realise that he must lose his magical powers in order to make Voldemort lose *his* magical powers. Alternatively it could simply involve his realisation that he has to give up a life playing Quidditch for England in order to enter a monastery [grin]. Voldemort as Anti-Christ is also a bit unlikely. As Melody says, he's described as one of a long line of evil wizards, and most of the WW is frankly terrified of him rather than worshipful. There are undoubtedly references in HP to the British tradition that `witchcraft' equals worshipping the devil ? I pointed out in an earlier post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40577 that the Death Eaters correspond fairly closely to this view of `witchcraft' [whereas the view of `magic' in general in the HP universe is something quite different]. JKR is, IMO, trying to use these images (the names of the Malfoys ? Lucius as an echo of `Lucifer', `Draco' as an echo of the snake who tempted Eve or possibly *even* the Dragon in the New Testament book of Revelations, the Dark Mark which used to be regarded as a sign of being sealed to the Devil) to convey that the DE's are evil, and worship evil. Personally I see Voldemort as someone who has deliberately chosen to become evil. His father may have rejected him, but he had the opportunity to become both great and good. He was Head Boy at Hogwarts, one of the best students they ever had, clever and handsome [CoS, UK paperback, Ch.18]. Had Voldemort chosen the path of good, someone with such talents could well have been Minister for Magic, or possibly Headmaster of Hogwarts. But his choices were all for evil. In that sense, only, he is symbolic of the Devil, who in my particular Christian tradition is also someone who chose evil over good. There are a huge number of possible interpretations of the Bible, and to some extent all exegeses (interpretations) depend on the interpreter's religious traditions. Both Melody and Caius have pointed out that in their own denominations they are perfectly qualified to interpret. My own denomination doesn't emphasise Revelations very heavily, so I'm probably not qualified to go through it verse by verse. However, since I've also done some biblical interpretation in relation to HP [grin], I feel I must point out that where adults are concerned, my own denomination has only licensed me to hit erring adult members of the congregation with a large, heavy staff (the emblem on top would leave people with some rather interesting cross shaped scars, btw) :-) ? not to teach/preach to them, which would require me to take an additional two year course of study. My own denomination would also lay heavy emphasis on respecting other people's religious traditions and trying to discover what we have in common rather than being insulting towards the differences. Describing the sincerely held beliefs of another as `nonsense' is plain rude. And in the spirit of respecting other religious traditions, one of posts discussing Dumbledore's enlightenment from a Buddhist point of view is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/26616 -I haven't been able to find the other, I'm afraid. Pip!Squeak From the.gremlin at verizon.net Sat Nov 9 18:50:33 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 18:50:33 -0000 Subject: Foe Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46388 Melody wrote: "If it is just whoever looks in the glass sees their foes, then when Snape looked in the foe-glass, he saw McG, Dumb, *and* himself. Now, it is possible to be a foe against oneself, but since it was just said that Harry saw the three profs int eh glass and then Snape saw the same three, I think it is meant to say that the Foe-Glass reflects the foes of the owner not the looker." Okay, the passage is: "Snape followed him [Dumbledore], looking into the Foe-Glass, where his own face was still visible, glaring into the room" (GoF, 679, US Ed.). Just for fun, I'm picking this apart. It does not make any mention of Dumbledore and McGonagall in the glass. The way the sentance is phrased, it sounds like Snape's face is the only one still visible in the glass. However, the radio-tuner idea does work here, because Harry could see Crouch's enemies in the glass, and not his own. However, if Snape's face was the only one left, what would account for him seeing only him, other than the whole "I am my own worst ememy thing"? -Acire From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sat Nov 9 18:58:49 2002 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 13:58:49 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another Dursley Question Message-ID: <4d.2727d505.2afeb4e9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46389 In a message dated 11/9/02 1:50:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, amberhillcrest at yahoo.com writes: > There are several instances in which the Dursleys send Harry gifts. The one > that comes to mind is the tissue and I think that they also gave Harry one > of Vernon's old socks. I am wondering how the Dursleys got the gifts to > Hogarts in the first place. They wouldn't use Owl Post because they don't > like magic and even if they didn't feel that way, they don't even have an > Owl with which to send anything. They can't use regular mail because as > Hermione explained, any Muggle who looks at Hogwarts will just see an > abandoned house. > > So, how do they get the gifts to him? > > I apologize if this has been brought up before. I am trying to make a > connection between the gift-giving and the speculation about the role of > the Dursleys in Book 5. I think I remember reading somewhere that Muggles could mail gifts, letters, etc. to a certain place (a post office I suppose) and then the Wizards would Owl them to students. While it makes sense to me, I'm not quite sure if it's real or I just imagined it. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies, but not everyone lives." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 9 19:14:56 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 19:14:56 -0000 Subject: Voldie Intent (was: Anti-christ!whatever) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46390 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > I understand what Richelle and you are > trying to say. We don't know what Voldie's plan for the WW. We know > he wants to be immortal and take over the world, but obviously, he > does not want to rule just over a few still alive wizards. > Does Voldemort really want to rule the whole world, I wonder? I think it's fair to assume that he wants to rule the WW in England, maybe in all of Western and Northern Europe, would he find it either desirable or practical to go beyond that? When it comes right down to it, how would any single wizard in England, no matter how powerful, impose his will on wizards in, say, Australia? Or China, or the US, or Russia? Even if he could, would it really be worth the effort? As long as they don't bother him, why would Voldemort care what wizards in Australia do? I suspect that beyond his personal goal of immortality, what Voldemort really wants is just enough territory to indulge his Evil Overlord tendencies and to make sure that nobody else bothers him. This is actually easier done with a small, unified power base than a big, scattered one. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From the.gremlin at verizon.net Sat Nov 9 19:15:28 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 19:15:28 -0000 Subject: Another Dursley Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46391 amberhillcrest wrote: "There are several instances in which the Dursleys send Harry gifts. The one that comes to mind is the tissue and I think that they also gave Harry one of Vernon's old socks. I am wondering how the Dursleys got the gifts to Hogarts in the first place. They wouldn't use Owl Post because they don't like magic and even if they didn't feel that way, they don't even have an Owl with which to send anything. They can't use regular mail because as Hermione explained, any Muggle who looks at Hogwarts will just see an abandoned house. So, how do they get the gifts to him? I apologize if this has been brought up before. I am trying to make a connection between the gift-giving and the speculation about the role of the Dursleys in Book 5." Well, in CoS, it says that Hedwig brought Harry his present from the Dursley's: "She [Hedwig] nibbled his ear in an affectionate sort of way, which was a far better present than the one she brought him, which turned out to be from the Dursley's. They had sent Harry a toothpick and a note telling him to find out whether he'd be able to stay at Hogwarts for the summer vacation, too" (CoS, 212, US Edition). However, that's the only year Hedwig brings Harry the Dursleys' present. For his second year, I'm guessing that Hedwig took it upon herself to bring Harry a Christmas gift, knowing that the Dursley's probably wouldn't want to give him one, and pestered them until they gave her something. After all, she has taken it upon herself to bring him gifts before. In PoA, she goes to visit Hermione in France, right when Hermione was worried about how she'd get her gift to Harry for his birthday. As for the other years, I'm assuming Hedwig brought the gifts in advance, instead of on Chritmas day itself. However, what about other Muggle-boen children? How do they get their presents? Some of them don't have owls. Hermione doesn't have an owl. Maybe there's a something like a P.O. box where Muggle parents can send their children 's presents, and a wizard just sits there all day, sorting the gifts, then takes them to Hogwarts and gives them to the House-Elves to distribute. -Acire, whose English teacher last year had a jar labled "Ashes of Ex-Students". She thinks it would be the perfect Christmas gift for Snape. From msbonsai at mninter.net Sat Nov 9 19:33:52 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 19:33:52 -0000 Subject: Well I searched the FAQ and didn't see this so . . . Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46392 Dumbledore looks at his watch and sees that Hagrid is late. A lot of us assume that somehow Harry has been added to this mysterious watch. So when the MOM was combing the countryside for Harry, did Dumbledore know he was on the bus heading for London? Did he send Fudge there? Did Dumbledore not see that Harry was being watched by Sirius? Perhaps it didn't list Harry in danger because Sirius meant no harm? I appologize if I didn't look far enough and this part's been covered, but I didn't see it, so if you did, please just let me know the # :o) Julie From msbonsai at mninter.net Sat Nov 9 19:42:35 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 19:42:35 -0000 Subject: Foe Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46393 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ats_fhc3" wrote: > Okay, the passage is: "Snape followed him [Dumbledore], looking into > the Foe-Glass, where his own face was still visible, glaring into > the room" (GoF, 679, US Ed.). > -Acire Again, it's just this very quote that bothers me. Now, we're told the story from Harry's point of view right? So seeing as Snape doesn't say what he sees, it's just Harry saying that he see's Snape seeing himself, and perhaps at this point he just mentions Snape because he's so incredibly close to the mirror? My other thought is that perhaps Snape isn't used to seeing himself in mirrors (after all, it is a looking glass ;o) ) Julie From jodel at aol.com Sat Nov 9 20:18:19 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 15:18:19 EST Subject: What don't we expect from the Dursleys? Message-ID: <187.10dcf904.2afec78b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46394 My suggestion; Gunnings gets bought up by a multi-national which downsizes and turns Vernon out as redundant. And we thought the Dursleys were nasty when they were affluent! Vernon can't get rehired, though he keeps trying. Petunia has to get a job. Much heart-burning over whether they can manage to keep Dudley at Smeltings. Harry's educational expenses are already covered, but they resent the expense of even having to house and feed him for two months. They end up dumping him on Mrs Figg on a regular basis since they refuse to leave him in the house alone or with only thir precious Dudders. Who manages to create some crisis there himself. They are so used to blaming Harry for everything that is wrong in their lives that they make themselves ridiculous. (And if the protections are specifically on #4 Privit Drive, what happens if they have to sell out?) All sounds in character to me... -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Sat Nov 9 20:18:15 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 15:18:15 EST Subject: New Magical World (WAS: Will Harry go to Egypt in OoTP?) Message-ID: <20.1db55a4.2afec787@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46395 bugaloo37 states; << 1) the title of book 5-the Order of the Phoenix; 2) the Egypt-Phoenix connection; 3)Phoenix-Egyptian symbol of immortality; 4) references to ancient Egyptian wizards in PoA; 5) Voldemort's obsession with immortality/desire to rule Europe. And also, Bill Weasley is already in Egypt-could he be considered a "special fan" of Harry's? Up to book 4, we had never met Bill Weasley-now suddenly, here he is-coincidence? IMO, I just do not think so. >> Add another connection. Through Bill the Weasley family has any number of Egyptian contacts and resources. The family trip in the summer before PoA wasn't the first time Egypt was mentioned in the series. Wasn't the reason Ron (and his brothers) stayed at Hogwarts in PS/SS over winter break because the older Weasleys (and Ginny?) were off to Egypt to visit Bill? I would not be at all surprised to hear that there is a whole magical community tucked away a la Diagon Alley in Cairo or Alexandria. (And just maybe calls itself the Order of the Phoenix?) -JOdel From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sat Nov 9 20:47:05 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 21:47:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and biblical parallels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021109204705.65694.qmail@web21502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46396 bluesqueak wrote: JKR has said that anyone who knows Christian Theology knows what's going to happen to Harry. That doesn't mean she's intending Book 7 to be a `The Last Battle' [C.S. Lewis]. A christian [small c] fate for Harry could involve his dying and rising again, his plain old dying for the sake of saving others and *not* rising again (Lily and James's fate could be described in that way, as they both died in an effort to save someone else ? James died trying to give Lily and Harry time to escape; Lily died deliberately standing in the way of Voldemort as he tried to kill Harry), or some other sacrifice in an effort to save his world. For example, since he and Voldemort are connected, Harry might realise that he must lose his magical powers in order to make Voldemort lose *his* magical powers. Alternatively it could simply involve his realisation that he has to give up a life playing Quidditch for England in order to enter a monastery [grin]. Me: He could also choose to spare Lord Voldemort. That would be an original ending, if we consider that most of the time, the solution of this kind of stories is ?the hero kills the bad guy?. I don?t mean there won?t be a final confrontation between Harry and Voldemort, and they won?t have to fight. However, it would be terrible if Harry had to kill the Dark Lord. It would turn him into what he fought against. And I?m not sure JKR wants to give the kids such an example. Sparing Lord Voldemort, giving up the idea of revenge (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth) would also be a great achievement for Harry. It also would put an end to the infinite spiral of hatred and vendetta that seems to be one of the motors of the story. Tom Riddle became Lord Voldemort because he din?t know how to forgive his father for leaving his mother. The Dark Lord is merciless; he doesn?t know what forgiving means. He acts resentfully. I don?t know if JKR will make Harry forgive Voldemort, but it would certainly give him greatness and a definitely positive status. He already shown he had aptitudes for mercy and magnanimity when he decided to spare Wormtail. Okay, he didn?t want Remus and Sirius to become murderers, and he didn?t say they had to forgive the traitor. But the fact is that even after all he had suffered, he knew that killing Peter was not a solution. That?s what I learnt when I attended catechism, that?s also more than a Christian point of view. If we consider Voldemort shares many characteristics with dictators and war criminals, his becoming after being defeated by Harry (that?s what we all hope for, don?t we?) would be an interesting question. A kind of ?wizarding Nuremberg?? Just a few thoughts, Iris ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From notcarlos at hotmail.com Sat Nov 9 20:54:18 2002 From: notcarlos at hotmail.com (Jacob Lewis) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 14:54:18 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Foe Glass References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46397 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ats_fhc3" wrote: > > Okay, the passage is: "Snape followed him [Dumbledore], looking > into > > the Foe-Glass, where his own face was still visible, glaring into > > the room" (GoF, 679, US Ed.). > > -Acire > > > Again, it's just this very quote that bothers me. Now, we're told > the story from Harry's point of view right? So seeing as Snape > doesn't say what he sees, it's just Harry saying that he see's Snape > seeing himself, and perhaps at this point he just mentions Snape > because he's so incredibly close to the mirror? Actually, there's a grammar problem here, since there are /two/ male subjects: 'him [Dumbledore]' and 'Snape'. Follow that up with the fact that you don't know /who/ is doing the looking into the glass (is it Dumbledore, i.e. the prepositional phrase modifies 'him', or is it 'Snape'?). It could be that /Dumbledore/'s face is still in the glass, and, considering the mood at the moment, either one could be doing the glaring. The only thing we know is that McGonnegal isn't in the mirror anymore (nor, really, the narrative, if memory serves, considering it's D who does the interrogating, and S who gets the potion). You know, to tie this in with other posts, there's a biblical controversy called the "iota heresy": basically, is JC homoousion "same as God" or homoiousion "kind of like God"? (Gibbon, "Decline and Fall", Ch. 21). It's where we get the "not an iota, not a jot" of Shakespeare and later -- thus showing you that Grammar, or at least /good writing/ is a thing to be cultivated, be it Harry Potter or God. (Ooh, I'm getting Purgatory for that one!) (grins) Who put this soap-box under me? (steps down) Jacob the Arcane From anakinbester at hotmail.com Sat Nov 9 20:55:43 2002 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 20:55:43 -0000 Subject: Voldie Intent (was: Anti-christ!whatever) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46398 Marina wrote: > > Does Voldemort really want to rule the whole world, I wonder? To which I give the really long answer: I've always been curiuse if Voldemort even understands what he wants. Disclaimer: I'm going to go out on a shaky branch here a talk about Voldemort as a Psycopath (or if you prefer as having a "severe antisocial disorder", Psychopath just sounds better to me so I still use that word) Anyway, I'm not a psychology major, I just read a lot about psychopaths this summer, and the attitude discribed seemed to nail Voldemort on the head. Also I have an interview of JKR describing him as "a raging psychopath, deviod of normal reactions to people's suffering" Anyway, like I said, I've not done any intensive training in psychology, so you can take all this witha grain of salt if you want. It's all coming from the books I read. (which were psychology books, not sensationalist articles) Why I question if he knows what he wants is because generally, psychopaths do not have long term goals for themselves. They indulge in self gratifying behavior and keep it up so long as it's entertaining, then throw it aside when they get bored (This describes their treatment of people too ^^) We've seen an example of that tendency in Voldemort. As Tom, he completely changed his "goal" in CoS when he decided that Harry was more interesting. Therefore, I find it hard to believe that he has some kind of crazed fanatical desire to rid the WW of muggle borns. He only does it when it amuses him. He certainly is egotisticle about himself, and he seems to need to be right. I think he simply enjoys manipulating people. I'm sure it's extremely amusing on some level to have all these pureblood bigots taking orders from, and fearing him, a mudblood. That may be the only motivation he really has. Control of the WW or the elimenation of mudbloods is just something said to gain followers. I doubt if he thinks of the future and what he will do if he does win. Everything is simply to prove his own power and thus motivated on vainity and his own self delusions that he is the only person that matters. > I suspect that beyond his personal goal of immortality, I think that makes more sense than ruling anything. He talks more about it than he does anything else, and it would certainly prove his own power beyound a doubt. And, with the added benefit of making him perpetual, and therefore, stronger than any other Wizard. > Voldemort really wants is just enough territory to indulge his Evil > Overlord tendencies and to make sure that nobody else bothers him. > This is actually easier done with a small, unified power base than a > big, scattered one. A bit like Dr. Doom insent he? Only I think Dr. Doom is more intelligent. But yes, I agree. I don't see him as a great conquerer. I see him as a small tyrant. -Ani From the.gremlin at verizon.net Sat Nov 9 21:31:55 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 21:31:55 -0000 Subject: Foe Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46399 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jacob Lewis" wrote: I wrote: "Okay, the passage is: "Snape followed him [Dumbledore], looking into the Foe-Glass, where his own face was still visible, glaring into the room" (GoF, 679, US Ed.)." then Jacob wrote: "Actually, there's a grammar problem here, since there are /two/ male subjects: 'him [Dumbledore]' and 'Snape'. Follow that up with the fact that you don't know /who/ is doing the looking into the glass (is it Dumbledore, i.e. the prepositional phrase modifies 'him', or is it 'Snape'?). It could be that /Dumbledore/'s face is still in the glass, and, considering the mood at the moment, either one could be doing the glaring." 'Looking' is modifying Snape, because Snape was the latter noun. It's just bad grammar to have 'looking' modifying the former noun. Yes, Dumbledore could be glaring at the moment, but the way the sentance is structured, there's no was it could be Dumbledore, especially when you take into context the passages around it: "He[Dumbledore, already singled out in the previous paragraph] stepped into the office, placed a foot underneath Moody's unconscious body, and kicked him over onto his back, so that his face was visible. Snape followed him, looking into the Foe-Glass rutabaga blah blah blah" (679, US Edition). Jacob went on: "The only thing we know is that McGonnegal isn't in the mirror anymore (nor, really, the narrative, if memory serves, considering it's D who does the interrogating,and S who gets the potion)." Actually, she does hang around to try and take Harry to the hospital wing. Then she is asked to fetch Sirius, then guard Crouch while Dumbledore takes Harry to his office. Jacob then said: "You know, to tie this in with other posts, there's a biblical controversy called the "iota heresy": basically, is JC homoousion "same as God" or homoiousion "kind of like God"? (Gibbon, "Decline and Fall", Ch. 21). It's where we get the "not an iota, not a jot" of Shakespeare and later -- thus showing you that Grammar, or at least /good writing/ is a thing to be cultivated, be it Harry Potter or God. (Ooh, I'm getting Purgatory for that one!)" to which I reply, "eh?" I have no clue what you just said, but I'm a stickler for grammar. Never ask me to read over your essay before you turn it in. It'll be red when you get it back. In another post in this thread, Julie said: "Again, it's just this very quote that bothers me. Now, we're told the story from Harry's point of view right? So seeing as Snape doesn't say what he sees, it's just Harry saying that he see's Snape seeing himself, and perhaps at this point he just mentions Snape because he's so incredibly close to the mirror?" Well, that is a good point. Snape is right up next to the mirror, so it would make sense that it's only himself that he sees. But how does the quote bother you? Harry is naming what he sees in the mirror, and what he sees is Snape, and Snape is standing in front of the mirror. Other people have decided that the glass is tuned to a certain person, in this case, Crouch Jr., so it would be his enemies seen in the glass. Julie than said: "My other thought is that perhaps Snape isn't used to seeing himself in mirrors (after all, it is a looking glass ;o) )" Is this a reference to Snape being a vampire? ::shakes head:: Maybe he just doesn't LOOK in a mirror. After all, he doesn't wash his hair. Or maybe he's part of the grunge movement and is incredibly vain. :D -Acire, who...doesn't know what to say. From Freiol at aol.com Sat Nov 9 20:54:55 2002 From: Freiol at aol.com (Freiol at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 15:54:55 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco, draconis (Re: Arthurian Allusions in "Harry Potter") Message-ID: <4b.262aa27a.2afed01f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46400 Iris wrote "And tell me, for I don't know Arthurian world as well as you do; didn't Uther Pendragon asked Merlin to awaken a dragon that would help him to win a battle (sorry if I'm wrong; that's a remote and very wolly memory of John Boorman's "Excalibur")?............ If I remember that movie correctly, Uther asked Merlin to wake the Dragon to help him get to Irgaine in Tintagel. While Gorlois was off fighting with Uther's men, Merlin woke the dragon and used the "Dragon's Mist" to allow for passage of Uther transformed into Gorlois to reach the caste. I remember Uther asking Merlin whether the mist was going to hold him and Merlin replying that yes "your lust will hold you up". Hope that helps. Sian From catlady at wicca.net Sat Nov 9 22:02:57 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 22:02:57 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's goal / Dursley Gifts / Dumbledore's watch Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46401 Melody wrote: << We know he wants to be immortal and take over the world, but obviously, he does not want to rule just over a few still alive wizards. >> Personally, I think Voldemort is loony enough that he DOES want to rule over only a few survivors. A few survivors in what Marina called "just enough territory to indulge his Evil Overlord tendencies and to make sure that nobody else bothers him" sounds about right. Huzzah, Ani anakinbester! Your post about Voldemort the psychopath not even knowing what he wants is perfect! Maureen Amber Hillcrest wrote: << I am wondering how the Dursleys got the gifts to Hogarts in the first place. They wouldn't use Owl Post because they don't like magic and even if they didn't feel that way, they don't even have an Owl with which to send anything. They can't use regular mail because as Hermione explained, any Muggle who looks at Hogwarts will just see an abandoned house. >> Some people, as Acire posted, believe that Hedwig goes to the Dursleys and pesters them until they give her something to take back to Harry. This is possible: Hedwig is clever, as shown in the scene Acire mentioned, where she brings Harry his present from Hermione at the beginning of PoA. "She, too, was carrying a parcel and looked extremely pleased with herself." Besides the parcel, a note from Hermione: "I'm on holiday in France at the moment and I didn't know how I was going to send this to you -- what if they'd opened it at customs? -- but then Hedwig turned up! I think she wanted to make sure you got something for your birthday for a change." ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ already stated what *I* think: that there is a whole system for Muggles (e.g. parents of Hogwarts students) to send mail to wizards (e.g. their children at school). I think there is a mailing address, possibly the top floor of the book shop next door to The Leaky Cauldron, to which they send the mail by regular post. Some wizard (maybe Tom the bartender, maybe an Owl Post employee) collects that mail daily and brings it to the Owl Post Office on Diagon Alley, where the cover envelopes are removed. Inside each cover envelope is the real envelope with the real address on it AND some money to pay for the Owl Post. The money is Muggle money, but the Owl Post changes it to wizard money at Gringotts periodically. I admit it's hard to believe that the Dursleys would spend more than $0.37 to send Harry a present, so I think whoever suggested the following is right: the letter from Dumbledore told the Dursleys that they had to give Harry birthday and Christmas presents (but didn't say that the 'present' had to be more than a used kleenex) or else Horrible Things would happen. The letter specified presents, along with much else, because presents are part of being treated as a family member, therefore required to activate the Ancient Magic that protects Harry while he is in his relatives' care. Julie A Strangfeld wrote: << Dumbledore looks at his watch and sees that Hagrid is late. A lot of us assume that somehow Harry has been added to this mysterious watch. So when the MOM was combing the countryside for Harry, did Dumbledore know he was on the bus heading for London? Did he send Fudge there? Did Dumbledore not see that Harry was being watched by Sirius? Perhaps it didn't list Harry in danger because Sirius meant no harm? >> Why do people assume that Dumbledore's watch is like the Weasleys' living room clock in having people's names on the hands and conditions around the dial? We know that not all wizarding clocks are like that: the Weasleys' kitchen clock has IIRC one hand and the 'numbers' are things like Time For Tea and Time To Feed The Chickens (and You're Late, which I admit is a condition). Canon of Dumbledore's watch (from chapter one, book one): "It was a very odd watch. It had twelve hands but no numbers; instead, little planets were moving around the edge." I think it was an astrological or astronomical depiction of the skies at the present moment, from which any devout amateur astronomer could tell the time. And he knew Hagrid was late because he had set a *time* for Hagrid to arrive. If Dumbledore's watch is an astrological watch, with the Earth at the center and the planets orbitting it, the twelve hands could represent the 12 Houses and move in accordance with the watch's latitude as well as the Earth's rotation. Thus the watch could tell him where he is as well as what time it is. If it is an astronomical watch, with the Sun at the center and the Earth one of the orbitting planets (presumably with the Moon making epicycles arond it), I don't know what the twelve hands represent. At first, I thought that the hands were physically carrying the little planets on their journey around the edge, but someone showed me how that was a wrong assumption, but I don't remember why it was wrong. From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 9 22:30:21 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 22:30:21 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (WAS: Well I searched the FAQ and didn't see this so) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46402 Julie "jastrangfeld" wrote: > Dumbledore looks at his watch and sees that Hagrid is late. A lot > of us assume that somehow Harry has been added to this mysterious > watch. So when the MOM was combing the countryside for Harry, did > Dumbledore know he was on the bus heading for London? Did he send > Fudge there? Did Dumbledore not see that Harry was being watched > by Sirius? Perhaps it didn't list Harry in danger because Sirius > meant no harm? Now me: We don't know for sure, but it does seem as if Dumbledore has a way of knowing where Harry is at all times. In CoS, he knows that Harry has arrived at the Burrow after being rescued in the Anglia by Gred and Forge (and sends his Hogwarts letter there instead of to Privet Dr.). And I don't think the Weasleys told him, based on this statement by Molly Weasley in Ch. 4: "Dumbledore already knows you're here, Harry - doesn't miss a trick, that man." I believe Dumbledore sent the Knight Bus to pick up Harry (in PoS) and told Fudge to wait for Harry at the Leaky Cauldron. Harry really didn't call the Knight Bus - it just showed up for him when he needed it. And Fudge tells Harry that the Accidental Magic Reversal Squad was dispatched "several hours ago" to puncture Aunt Marge - Dumbledore must have known about that, too (since the squad was dispatched before Harry told anyone that he had blown up his aunt). My theory is that this is all part of the "ancient magic" that's protecting Harry. I have a theory that the ancient magic is related to Harry being Gryffindor's heir. I also have a theory that Fawkes was once Gryffindor's phoenix, and since Fawkes is now Dumbledore's phoenix, perhaps Dumbledore obtains his intelligence about Harry through Fawkes. We won't know for sure until JKR tells us, of course. As for Harry seing Sirius' animagus in Magnolia Crescent - well, immediately after this spotting, the Knight Bus arrives to rescue Harry. I don't think that was a coincidence! ~Phyllis From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 9 22:47:25 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 22:47:25 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Immortality Goal Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46403 The one goal we know for sure that Voldemort is aiming to achieve is that of immortality. I suppose he might want to become immortal in order to rule over some portion of the world forever, but I wonder if that isn't it at all. I suspect that Voldemort wants to become immortal because he's afraid of dying. "Voldemort" means "flight from death." He could be fleeing death because he's afraid to die. If this is correct, it may be the one area in which he's actually very human! In Ch. 4 of PS/SS, Hagrid tells Harry "Dunno if he [Voldemort] had enough human left in him to die." Perhaps it's more accurate to say that Voldemort didn't die because he was still very human in his fear of dying, and that fear led him to conduct the many immortality "experiments" which actually allowed him to survive the Baby!Harry rebounded AK. But while it's very human to fear death and not want to die, why is Voldemort so particularly obsessed with avoiding death? I suppose it could be that he has no hopes of an enjoyable afterlife (for those of us who believe in an afterlife), given the evilness of his earthly life. But I wonder if there isn't more to this that JKR has yet to reveal thus far. If I'm correct about Voldemort's fear of death, the comparison between Voldemort and Harry when Harry faces death in Ch. 34 of GoF is all the more notable: "...he [Harry] knew one thing only, and it was beyond fear or reason: He was not going to die crouching here like a child playing hide-and-seek; he was not going to die kneeling at Voldemort's feet...he was going to die upright like his father, and he was going to die trying to defend himself, even if no defense was possible..." Harry is noble and brave in facing death, while Voldemort is a coward. Perhaps this difference between Harry and Voldemort will prove to be crucial in Harry's final defeat of Voldemort. ~Phyllis From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sat Nov 9 22:48:22 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 23:48:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco, draconis (Re: Arthurian Allusions in "Harry Potter") In-Reply-To: <4b.262aa27a.2afed01f@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021109224822.73197.qmail@web21503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46404 Freiol at aol.com wrote: Iris wrote "And tell me, for I don't know Arthurian world as well as you do; didn't Uther Pendragon asked Merlin to awaken a dragon that would help him to win a battle (sorry if I'm wrong; that's a remote and very wolly memory of John Boorman's "Excalibur")?............ If I remember that movie correctly, Uther asked Merlin to wake the Dragon to help him get to Irgaine in Tintagel. While Gorlois was off fighting with Uther's men, Merlin woke the dragon and used the "Dragon's Mist" to allow for passage of Uther transformed into Gorlois to reach the caste. I remember Uther asking Merlin whether the mist was going to hold him and Merlin replying that yes "your lust will hold you up". Hope that helps. Sian Iris again: Don't know if there's a matter of lust in HP, but Merlin's "Dragon Mist" seems to have the same effects as Polyjuice... Interesting. Thanks,Sian! ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? 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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 9 22:59:13 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 22:59:13 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts' Enchantments Guard Against Unwanted Wizards (WAS:Flying over Hogwarts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46405 Eloise wrote: > It has struck me recently that with all the protections guarding > Hogwarts - the inability to dis/apparate, the crumbling ruin > disguise and all the other implied but unstated charms guarding > the Castle - just how very odd it is that Charlie Weasley's friends > can just fly in on their broomsticks, pick up Norbert and fly off > again. Or, indeed, that Sirius can just fly off the premises on a > Hippogriff. > > What is the point of an anti-apparation charm, when you can simply > fly in and out unnoticed under cover of darkness? And how did > Charlie's friends locate Hogwarts? Even if they'd been students > there, they presumably would always have travelled there by the > Hogwarts Express. If the location is secret, then it is secret and > known only to a limited few. and I replied: > And Harry and Ron flew onto the Hogwarts grounds in the Anglia; the > Durmstrang students bubbled up from the middle of the lake on their > ship; the Beauxbatons students flew in on their carriage; Sirius > walked onto the grounds as a dog; Crouch Sr. also walked onto the > grounds...the list of *wizards* who have been able to get into > Hogwarts via alternative methods than the Hogwarts Express is > fairly extensive. However, I highlight *wizards* because it is my > recollection that the crumbling ruin disguise is meant to keep > *Muggles* from noticing Hogwarts. I don't believe the disguise is > meant to keep *wizards* from Hogwarts. > > I also don't think the inability to disapparate or apparate has > anything to do with keeping *wizards* from being able to penetrate > Hogwarts. I frankly think it's a convenient plot device for JKR - > for example, if wizards could dis/apparate into or out of the > Hogwarts grounds, Sirius would never have been left alone at the > end of PoA pending his execution, and therefore Harry and Hermione > wouldn't have been able to save him on Buckbeak. Now me again: After writing this, I was listening to my audiotape of PoA and came to the part where the students are in their squashy purple sleeping bags in the Great Hall on Halloween night after Sirius has attacked the portrait of the Fat Lady (Ch. 9). Hermione tells Harry and Ron that "Hogwarts, A History" states that "... the castle's protected by more than walls, you know. There are all sorts of enchantments on it, to stop people entering by stealth." So this statement does *not* support the conclusion I had previously reached, that the protections are meant to only keep Muggles out. So I think this still remains a bit of a puzzle. After all, why would dementors need to be stationed at the entrances to Hogwarts if the enchantments were sufficient to keep unwanted wizards out? And how do we explain how other wizards have been able to get onto the Hogwarts grounds unnoticed? I do still think it's a bit telling that we didn't hear about the inability to apparate or disapparate within the Hogwarts grounds until PoA, when it became necessary to have such a rule in order to allow Sirius to be left alone in one of the rooms at Hogwarts. ~Phyllis From notcarlos at hotmail.com Sat Nov 9 23:11:45 2002 From: notcarlos at hotmail.com (Jacob Lewis) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 17:11:45 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco, draconis (Re: Arthurian Allusions in "Harry Potter") References: <20021109224822.73197.qmail@web21503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46406 First Iris, in her clear-headed way, wrote: "And tell me, for I don't know Arthurian world as well as you do; didn't Uther Pendragon asked Merlin to awaken a dragon that would help him to win a battle (sorry if I'm wrong; that's a remote and very wolly memory of John Boorman's "Excalibur")?............ Then sang Sian, swift with respect to his feet: If I remember that movie correctly, Uther asked Merlin to wake the Dragon to help him get to Irgaine in Tintagel. While Gorlois was off fighting with Uther's men, Merlin woke the dragon and used the "Dragon's Mist" to allow for passage of Uther transformed into Gorlois to reach the caste. I remember Uther asking Merlin whether the mist was going to hold him and Merlin replying that yes "your lust will hold you up". Hope that helps. Said I: Actually, there's a myth that I think crops up first in Geoffrey of Monmouth, and is expanded in Mallory: "There he assembled stonemasons from different parts of the country and ordered them to build a tower for him. The masons gathered and began to lay the foundations of their tower. However much they built one day the earth swallowed up the next, in such a way that they had no idea where their work had vanished to." Merlin, then a young boy, promised to solve the problem of the castle foundations himself. He told the King that the foundations fell every night because there was a pool beneath the earth they were lain on. He also told the King that beneath the pool, two dragons lay sleeping. And when Vortigern dug under the foundations, he found the pool. And when he drained the pool, the two dragons awoke, and began to fight, and Merlin began to prophesy: "Alas for the Red Dragon, for its end is near. Its cavernous dens shall be occupied by the White Dragon, which stands for the Saxons which you have invited over. The Red Dragon represents the people of Britain, who will be overrun by the White One..." Then Merlin told Vortigern that he was pretty much doomed, because there was this Arthur kid coming along, and he'd drive out the Saxons and be king of all the British, etc. etc. Lifted wholesale from: http://dragonsunlimited.tripod.com/index-231.html ------ I /do/ remember the whole Gorlois-Ygraine-Utor story, but I don't recall there being /dragons/ in it, just Merlin, and a polyjuice-like episode, including getting hair from Gorlois... Hope I'm helpful today. (grin) Jacob, whose previous post on grammar included a bit on the iota, (hah!) which was intended as an example of how little things can drive a community apart, but may just have been one of his usual unconnected-to-anything ramblings. From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sun Nov 10 00:01:06 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 01:01:06 +0100 (CET) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldie Intent (was: Anti-christ!whatever) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021110000106.12928.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46407 anakinbester wrote: "Marina wrote: > > Does Voldemort really want to rule the whole world, I wonder? To which I give the really long answer: I've always been curiuse if Voldemort even understands what he wants." He wants to be immortal, to rid the WW from Muggle-borns; he wants his followers to bow deeply. He doesn't seems to pretend to rule the whole world. As you've pointed it, he's a psychopath, and he's too involved in his own madness and too selfish to be able to rule the world . He has reached the point of no return when he failed in his attempt to kill young Harry, and now he's completely obsessed by having a revenge. Yes, you are right when you paint him as a Dr Doom, a Dr Evil. He's able to organise a plot, as we see in GoF, but it's in order to kill Harry, not to take the power. Even when he was at the top, his way of acting looked more like terrorism than to a deliberate struggle for power. He spent years killing and terrifying, but I don't remember JKR wrote he told the MoM he wanted to rule the WW (if I'm wrong, tell me). Many people compare him with Hitler, and they are right until one point: Hitler used terrorist methods too, but it was in order to destabilize the government and then take the power, and he quickly reached his goal. I never read Voldemort tried to overturn the MoM... Well, I didn't think this post would bring me there. Voldemort never behaved like a declared dictator, but if we trust in what Hagrid told Harry about his "reign", everybody in the WW was acting as if he had come to power... Should I say that in a sense, Voldemort was powerful because the other wizards didn't dare to face him, giving him strengh? That would fit with the fact they avoid calling his name.They don't face their fear. Voldemort's power is in the fear he's able to generate.Did Harry survive only because, as a baby, he didn't know who Voldemort was, and then didn't fear him? What do you think? Iris --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 10 00:42:07 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 00:42:07 -0000 Subject: HP and biblical parallels In-Reply-To: <20021109204705.65694.qmail@web21502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46408 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Iris FT wrote: > > > bluesqueak wrote: > > > JKR has said that anyone who knows Christian Theology knows what's > going to happen to Harry. > > > > That doesn't mean she's intending Book 7 to be a `The Last Battle' > [C.S. Lewis]. > > A christian [small c] fate for Harry could involve his dying and > rising again, his plain old dying for the sake of saving others > and *not* rising again or some other sacrifice in an > effort to save his world. For example, since he and Voldemort are > connected, Harry might realise that he must lose his magical > powers in order to make Voldemort lose *his* magical powers. > > > > Me: He could also choose to spare Lord Voldemort. > > That would be an original ending, if we consider that most of the time, the solution of this kind of stories is "the hero kills the bad guy". > > I don't mean there won't be a final confrontation between Harry and Voldemort, and they won't have to fight. However, it would be terrible if Harry had to kill the Dark Lord. It would turn him into what he fought against. And I'm not sure JKR wants to give the kids such an example. > > Sparing Lord Voldemort, giving up the idea of revenge (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth) would also be a great achievement for Harry. It also would put an end to the infinite spiral of hatred and vendetta that seems to be one of the motors of the story. > > > I don't know if JKR will make Harry forgive Voldemort, but it would certainly give him greatness and a definitely positive status. > > He already shown he had aptitudes for mercy and magnanimity when he decided to spare Wormtail. Okay, he didn't want Remus and Sirius to become murderers, and he didn't say they had to forgive the traitor. But the fact is that even after all he had suffered, he knew that killing Peter was not a solution. > > Iris Yes, forgiveness and second chances are a very big theme in the books so far. As well as the climatic 'Harry refusing to kill his parent's betrayer' sequence in PoA [Chapter 19 UK hardback]there is also Dumbledore's famous emphasis on second chances, notably with Hagrid, Snape and possibly Lupin. More interestingly, there's also Snape's not-so-famous emphasis on second chances, with Quirrel in Ch.13 PS/SS, Lockhart in Ch.16 CoS, possibly Lupin in PoA ( though it's at Dumbledore's persuasion and he's HORRIBLY reluctant about it in Ch.9), and Karkaroff in GoF Ch.23. Actually, the only time Snape appears to flat out refuse a second chance is in the Shrieking Shack [PoA Ch. 19]. Otherwise, in a nasty sort of way, he's quite merciful. I'm not sure I could have told someone like Karkaroff, who tried to turn Snape in just to get *himself* out of jail: 'Flee, I will make your excuses'.[GoF UK hardback, Ch.23 p.370]. Hagrid is also forgiving by nature (especially if you happen to have poisonous fangs:-) ). So Harry has examples of mercy, of giving someone a second chance or forgiving them entirely from the people surrounding him at Hogwarts. Would Harry try to kill an apparently repentant Voldemort? A Voldemort who is defeated and powerless? The Harry we have seen to date is unlikely to do such a thing. So, yeah, that Harry might forgive Voldemort and/or his surviving supporters is a real possibility for the end of the series. I think dramatic completion means that Voldemort either has to die, or has to end up somewhere that is effectively the end of him - but there's no need for *Harry* to do this to him. Harry could fight him, defeat him, forgive him - and then an unrepentant Voldemort might do something that results in his own destruction. Pip!Squeak From prof_razorwire at oentalox.com Sat Nov 9 18:55:18 2002 From: prof_razorwire at oentalox.com (ebon_askavi) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 18:55:18 -0000 Subject: Another Dursley Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46409 Perhaps Petunia had something left over from Lily's time at Hogwarts; an enchanted box, where you could address soemthing to a witch and wizard, put it in, and it'd be forwarded to an owl post that processes the letter/gift/etc? I could see her using something magic to spite Harry--because what was the gift of one old sock but something to purposely degrade and hurt Harry? If they wanted to seem nice people, they would have given him a better gift or nothing at all...a dirty sock just makes THEM look bad, to an outsider, and is obviously a way to hurt Harry. They go out of their way to hurt him. Or perhaps Dumbledore has something where he sends an owl to pick up such gifts, and they have to send SOMETHING so they don't raise his suspicions, so they grab an old sock they don't need, wrap it up, and send it with the owl. I don't think, in normal circumstances (they might if they feel Voldie-threat was high), Dumbledore & Co. would open Harry's gifts. I guess even if they did, they wouldn't raise a ruckas about an old sock when it could have been a death-curse. There's probably more of a muggle/wizard support frame than we see in the books, at least at hogwarts, because muggle parents like Hermione's DO need contact with their magical children. ::waves to the group:: Hi, I'm new. ;) "ebon askavi" --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "amberhillcrest" wrote: > There are several instances in which the Dursleys send Harry gifts. The one that comes to mind is the tissue and I think that they also gave Harry one of Vernon's old socks. I am wondering how the Dursleys got the gifts to Hogarts in the first place. They wouldn't use Owl Post because they don't like magic and even if they didn't feel that way, they don't even have an Owl with which to send anything. They can't use regular mail because as Hermione explained, any Muggle who looks at Hogwarts will just see an abandoned house. > > So, how do they get the gifts to him? > > I apologize if this has been brought up before. I am trying to make a connection between the gift-giving and the speculation about the role of the Dursleys in Book 5. > > -Maureen Amber From hadeurige at yahoo.fr Sat Nov 9 23:44:51 2002 From: hadeurige at yahoo.fr (hadeurige) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 23:44:51 -0000 Subject: How many students at Hogwarts? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46410 According to you, how many students are there in the school? Hundreds of horseless carriages are waiting to take the students at Hogsmeade station, hundreds of pupils attend the Quidditch games, that seems at lot, doesn't it? But actually, if you consider Gryffindor's house: 8 pupils (3 girls and 5 boys joined Gryffindor in Harry's year. Let's make it an average of 10 students per house per year. There are four houses and 7 years at Hogwarts...which makes a total of around 300 pupils in the whole school, no more! And actually, it seems to explain the fact that they all fit around the four (already very large) tables in the dining-hall. "hadeurige" From neilward at dircon.co.uk Sun Nov 10 01:24:52 2002 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 01:24:52 -0000 Subject: How many students at Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46411 "hadeurige" wrote: << According to you, how many students are there in the school? if you consider Gryffindor's house: 8 pupils (3 girls and 5 boys joined Gryffindor in Harry's year. Let's make it an average of 10 students per house per year. There are four houses and 7 years at Hogwarts...which makes a total of around 300 pupils in the whole school, no more! >> ... and to add to the confusion, when interviewed about this, JKR declared there were "about a thousand" students at Hogwarts. I'm popping up in semi-Mod role to remind everyone that there is a VFAQ in the files section, indicating some of the questions, including this one, that have come up very frequently on list: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/vfaq There's an entry on "number of students at Hogwarts" that points at some useful sources (a Hogwarts FAQ, for example) if anyone's interested. Alternatively, a search of the archives here would pull up quite a few threads from the past. I doubt we'll ever pin this one down! Neil __________________ Flying Ford Anglia From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 01:26:16 2002 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 01:26:16 -0000 Subject: How many students at Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46412 There are actually about three hundred, it would seem, although there is plenty of debate on the subject. Here's the evidence from the books themselves: There are more or less ten students (depending on the vagarities of the Sorting) in each house per year, five boys and five girls. There are twenty broomsticks lying on the ground awaiting the first year Gryffindors and Slytherins for their first flying lesson, which bears that number out. A double class of potions--Gryffindor and Slytherin--has twenty cauldrons set up. For a double class of herbology--Gryffindor and Hufflepuff-- Professor Sprout has twenty pairs of earmuffs ready. Harry's class in Gryffindor has the following students in it: Harry Potter Ron Weasley Seamus Finnigan Dean Thomas Neville Longbottom Hermione Granger Lavender Brown Parvati Patil two unidentified girls If there are more Gryffindors of that year, isn't it strange that we haven't heard about them in four years' worth of books? Not a one has spoken up in class, has been part of any parties or activities in the common room, or anything like that. Judging by the numbers cited above for herbology, flying, and potions, they must not even be in the same classes. If there are any others, where in the world are they? We do have evidence of two more girls, but they have been awfully quiet. Assuming the ten students per house per year numbers, that would work out to forty students per year for a total of about 280 students. This meshes with the several times that Harry sees "hundreds" of people in the Great Hall (in SS when Harry is Sorted and GF when he's chosen for the tournament, for example). The number of teachers would also suggest a fairly small number of students. In GF Harry looks along the staff table in the Great Hall. He notes teachers by name until he gets to Dumbledore in the middle of the table. He has named Flitwick, Sprout, Sinistra, Snape, and an open chair for McGonagall on that side, which means that there would be the same number on the other side, for a total of eleven, counting Dumbledore. Add Trelawney, who we know doesn't attend these functions, and we get an even dozen teachers. Twelve teachers would not be able to teach classes to a thousand students, unless they used Time Turners constantly, which doesn't seem likely. The sorting at the beginning of PA takes only as long as a fairly quick conversation between Harry, McGonagall, and Madam Pomfrey and a subsequent chat between Hermione and McGonagall. The time of these chats seems quite short. But if there are a thousand students at Hogwarts, there would be between 150 and 200 students to sort every year. Even at the rate of two per minute, that would mean the sorting would last for over an hour. Would the rest of the students really be willing to sit for that long waiting to eat? I think it would get a bit long. And the sorting we've witnessed in the books certainly doesn't seem to last over an hour. On the other hand, there are about a hundred carriages to take students to the castle from the train station in Hogsmeade. There are also 1200 seats available around the tables at the Yule Ball. And during one Quidditich match, there are two hundred Slytherin supports in the stadium when we know that Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs were backing Gryffindor. So there are some references that support the "thousand student" concept. But by far most of the evidence suggests a much smaller number... Source: The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/hogwarts_howmany.html Steve From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Nov 10 02:06:07 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 20:06:07 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Foe Glass/ Voldie's intent References: Message-ID: <013701c2885d$bfe531c0$02a0cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 46413 Acire writes: > Just for fun, I'm picking this apart. It does not make any mention > of Dumbledore and McGonagall in the glass. The way the sentance is > phrased, it sounds like Snape's face is the only one still visible > in the glass. However, the radio-tuner idea does work here, because > Harry could see Crouch's enemies in the glass, and not his own. > However, if Snape's face was the only one left, what would account > for him seeing only him, other than the whole "I am my own worst > ememy thing"? Okay, that settles it. If I ever have an opportunity to ask JKR one question, this is it. "What does a Foe Glass show? The enemies of its owner or the enemies of the one looking into the Foe Glass?" You know how she did all those chats with Scholastic and all after GoF, so who knows, she might do them for OoP. Although she'll have a small baby. Still, you never know. And you can always tell something by her answers whether she actually answers or not. If she says she can't tell you, you know there's something to it. And if she point blank answers, well, that would settle it anyway! I'm having a mental block here, are there any other scenes with a foe glass? Other than the one in Moody!Crouch's office? Iris writes: > they avoid calling his name.They don't face their fear. Voldemort's power is in the > fear he's able to generate.Did Harry survive only because, as a baby, he didn't > know who Voldemort was, and then didn't fear him? I've always wondered about that. Particularly the scene in TMTSNBN (the first one!) where JKR wrote the scene at the Potter's house specifically for the movie. I originally doubted that it was written by her, but after they keep saying it over and over I'm starting to believe them. If it wasn't she'd surely have denied it by now. Anyway, baby Harry is staring dead on at Voldemort. Why? This baby's parents were just killed, I'll admit a 15 month old can't really know what's going on, but still he would know something were wrong if his mother just screamed and collapsed in front of him. With green light and all. But he's just staring at him. Almost an "I dare you to try it" stare. I'll admit right off, it could just be a matter of them not wanting a screaming baby on a "children's" movie. But still, it always seemed odd. And there's nothing in the books to compare it to. Richelle From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 10 02:50:49 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 02:50:49 -0000 Subject: TBAY: A long road to a toy boat named DEW DROP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46414 Wandering down one of the many dirt roads of TBAY, Meg and Frankie were deep in conversation about the ins and outs of their RATS BE DISEASES Pig Dudley theory. "I just so happen to have an uncle in large animal medicine." Frankie grins. "Here's the skinny on pigs. The Yorkshire hog currently is the most commonly bred pig because sows have between 14 and 16 piglets per litter. These piglets start out between 1.5 to 2 lbs and WITHIN SIX MONTHS reach market weight of 220 lbs. That's a little over a pound per day, and the general ratio of feed to pound of pig is roughly 2 to 1. That's two pounds of food for every pound the pig gains." Meg, looking quite pleased that Frankie's uncle could provide such vital information, added, "Well, we find that Dudley is now so darn big he takes up an entire side of the kitchen table by himself. On page 27, we read, "that the school outfitters didn't stock knickerbockers big enough for him anymore." "True, true," Frankie agreed, as she looked further up the road. "Meg, what is that?" "And since they just removed the tail..." Meg continued not paying any attention to Frankie. "Meg," Frankie said as she stopped her fellow TBAY'er and force her to actually look up. "Look." Both girls peered down the dusty road. A small crumpled figure was lying in the road face down under a rather large willow tree. "Oh my," Meg gasped raising her hand to her mouth, "who is that?" Frankie did not stay to answer and ran to the downtrodden girl's side. Meg was close on her heels struggling to put her book back in her satchel. Frankie crouched down to see if the girl was still breathing. Meg held her breath looking around to see if anyone was near to help. "She's breathing...barely," Frankie said relieved, "Here - help me roll her over. Nothing seems to be broken." The girls gently pushed the small girl over and rested her on her back. Brushing the dirt from the girl's face, Frankie recognized her. "Meg, it's Melody." "No. It can't be. What is she doing way out here?" Meg asked. "Your guess is as good as mine," Frankie mumbled while trying to revive the girl. "She seems quite knocked out. Something must of hit her hard." Leaning down to help appraise Melody's condition, Meg observed, "Seems that nothing is missing, but she has a large knot on her head and a few claw scratches on her face. Seems she was attacked and quite quickly. Frankie, we have to get her back home to the Safe House." Frankie nodded in agreement, "Yeah, Pip will be there and will know what to do." "Do you think Grey might be there as well? He likes to go after attackers and show them - well - the error of their ways," Meg said with a bit of a sly grin. "I don't know. He's a bit fickle lately, but he could be. The Wolf has to come home sometime, but for now the best place for Melody is in Pip's and Sneaky's care," Frankie stated while digging in her book bag for a way to carry the girl. Melody might be tiny, but it is hard to manage carrying anyone who is unconscious. Frankie found a small box she got in the mail a few weeks ago for school. Pressing the little red button, the small package grew into a hovering padded stretcher. The girls lifted the still unconscious Melody onto the stretcher and head south to the Safe House. Meg still looking around wondered, "Frankie, you don't think she was...you know...well the rumor is out there, and Melody should of been pre-warned." Frankie looked back at her partner, "Meg, I don't think Elkins got to her. Elkins may be a bit odd and intense, but she would not do *this*. The woman is not..." "Is not what Frankie?" Meg insisted, "You don't know what she is up to lately. It is not like she is around for us to observe her current state of mind. She could be on one of her more - well - maniac moods, and could of..." "Meg, please. You and I both know Elkins is more bark than bite. She does though manage to preserve her fear aura around her. Everyone speaks in such a hush sense of awe. Still, she would never leave a TBAY'er out alone on a dirty road." "Ok, ok," Meg said quickly, "I just was just saying it is a possibility." Frankie and Meg continued down the road till the lights of the Safe House came in the distance. "Good, looks that someone is home. Hold on Melody, we're getting there," Meg whispered in Melody's ear. Guiding the stretcher up the stairs, Frankie paused and knocked on the oak doors. Whatever Sneaky was expecting when she opened the door, needless to say, an exhausted Meg and Frankie with an unconscious Melody was not it. "Mistress, Pip!Squeak, Mistress Pip!Squeak," Sneak screamed while egging Frankie and Meg into the house, "It's Miss Melody. She is dead ma'am! Dead!" Sitting on the floor surrounded by rather large books labeled Writings of John and Diplomacy, Pip jumped up scattering her papers and ran to Melody's side. "Sneaky go get the bottle marked 'Revenerator' and a warm washcloth," Pip requested while helping Frankie and Meg lowered the girl on the couch. "What happened?" Frankie and Meg looked at each other not really sure themselves. "Well frankly, we were walking and just found her. On that road by the willow tree," Frankie answered. "And you don't know who?" Pip asked gingerly placing a pillow behind Melody's head looking at her obviously bruised head and face. Frankie started to speak but Meg piped in first, "I think it might be Elkins." Pip looked up startled. "Elkins? I know she can be a bit bold, but she has never attacked anyone like this." "See, Pip. That is what I told her too," Frankie said glancing over at Meg. "Look I know..." Meg started to say, but Sneaky was back with the bottle and washcloth. "Thanks, Sneaky," Pip smiled and turned toward her little housemate. She gave the cloth to Meg so she could wipe away the dirt on the poor girl's face and asked Frankie to raise Mel's head and gently open her mouth. Pip removed the stopper from the bottle and drew out a small dose of perfectly clear liquid. Lowering it down, Pip eased it into Melody's slightly opened mouth and held her breath. Within a few seconds, Melody drew in a deep breath and tried to raise her hand to her head. "Don't do that," Pip said motherly. Melody heavily opened her eyes and looked around. "Oh, mistress, you saved her. She lives," Sneaky exclaimed jumping up and down. "Yes, yes, Sneaky, but calm down. She should be quite disoriented," Frankie urged the little house elf. "Why don't you bring a pot of tea for us." "Make mine a double," Meg added resting down in the chair quite relieved all is going to be ok. Melody tried to get up, but fell back. "What happened?" she whispered. "We were hoping you would tell us," Frankie said resting in the chair next to Meg having just poured a cup of tea for the both of them. [Man, that Sneaky is fast. :) ] "I don't know. I was happily walking when I think the tree attacked me." Pip laughed. "Mel, trees cannot attack you in TBAY." "Why not? This one did," she said rather hurt they would question her. The looked exchanged between the three non-head pounding women in the room told Melody she was not in the least bit thought to be in a frame of mind to make any judgments on whether trees can attack. Pip patted her hand. "Mel, I think you need rest. Don't worry about the -erm- tree. I'll take care of it." Not wanting to think for fear of completely exploding her head, Melody submitted to being carried to her room and placed to sleep off her obvious tree mauling. Closing the door behind her, Frankie laughed, "Honestly, 'The tree attacked me.' Seems that knot on her head did more damage to her than just bruise her ego." "Even still, she should be ok by morning. Thanks for bringing her in girls," Pip smiled a bit tired. "Staying over night?" "Yeah, thought we'd crash in our piggy room. We'll be off by morning though. Got to make it for anatomy across country," Meg said while Frankie and her headed to their portion of the safe house. Alone now, Pip carried the tea tray to the kitchen and wandered to her room. Closing the door behind her, she wondered how TBAY ever got so violent. Seems emotions can run rather high around here. *******the next morning********* Feeling a bit heavy headed and definitely a bit sore, Melody did not want to move the next morning. It was as if the very concept was so foreign it did not even exist. But reality was slowly slipping in like the light from the crack in the blinds. Propping her head on a few pillows, Melody raised herself. Looking around, she could not remember how she got here. Feeling a bit brave and a powerful hunger, Melody slipped down from her bed and walked to the door supported by her hands on the wall. She tenderly navigated the stairs down to the kitchen. To her surprise, both Pip and Grey were sitting there smiling at her. "Mel, you're alright." said a gruff voice. "Hey, Grey. What are you doing here?" Melody said weakly lowering herself into a chair to rest her head on the table. "Well, I heard a voice in the wind and came to make sure our little member is alright. Seems you gave Meg and Frankie quite a scare last night." "Hey, me too," Pip added pushing a glass of orange juice to the tousled hair Safe House member. Melody smiled at their concern. "I'm alright. Just a little...shaken." Grey brought his paw down on her shoulder and raised her face to make sure her scratches were healing. "Understandably, but don't worry. All is ok." Melody meekly smiled but felt her head pounding. Grey seemed to notice her pain and let her lower her head back to the safety on her folded arms. "Seems you will heal fine." Grey observed and glanced over at Pip. "Just need to get your mind off things." Pip caught the cue. "You know, there have been a few reading coming in about one of your tethered toy boats, Mel," she said with a hint of intent. Melody looked up from her folded arms, "Really? Which one?" Pleased to see her friend having more interest in something beyond last night, "That one about Dumbledore's watch. What did you name it?" "DEW DROP. It's name is DEW DROP," Melody said loving the prospect on being about to bring it out. "Where are the readings?" Pip and Grey looked at each other and smiled. "In the library on the recorder," Grey encouraged. "Everything is there on the table for you." Melody smiled and attempted to jump up from the table but was greatly reminded by her throbbing head that she should not of done that. Pip and Grey started to catch her, but she managed to grab the chair and balance herself. "Sorry," she mumbled. "Got carried away." Watched extremely carefully by Pip and Grey, Melody made her way to the study. Everything was just as they said. Lowering herself into what is normally Pip's chair, Melody began sorting through the bits of information that had come over the wire. One piece of paper read: ------------ Julie A Strangfeld wrote: <>We don't know for sure, but it does seem as if Dumbledore has a way >>of knowing where Harry is at all times. In CoS, he knows that Harry >>has arrived at the Burrow after being rescued in the Anglia by Gred >>and Forge (and sends his Hogwarts letter there instead of to Privet >>Dr.). And I don't think the Weasleys told him, based on this >>statement by Molly Weasley in Ch. 4: "Dumbledore already knows >>you're here, Harry - doesn't miss a trick, that man." ------------ "Ooo, good point there," Melody noted. "He does seem to always know where precisely Harry is. Nice canon there too." She continued flipping and fell upon one that was not yet convinced about her little boat. ----------- Catlady wrote: >Why do people assume that Dumbledore's watch is like the Weasleys' >living room clock in having people's names on the hands and >conditions around the dial? **small snip** >And he knew Hagrid was late because he had set a *time* for Hagrid to >arrive. ------------ Hmm, seems I need to present my case a little better. Reaching over to grab her little notebook on said clocks and watches in the wizard world, Melody began sketching out the structures of her little toy boat DEW DROP. -- DEW DROP Dumbledore's Extraordinary Watch Draws Reconnaissance On Potter Started from PS/SS Ch1: "...as he took a golden watch from his packet and examined it. It was a very odd watch. It had twelve hands but no numbers; instead, little planets were moving around the edge. It must of made sense to Dumbledore, though, because he put it back in his pocket and said, 'Hagrid's late.'" Given that this is the only pocket watch we know of in the series as of date, we are left to figure out what exactly the planets and hands represent. All we know is it is "a very odd watch" and not a muggle watch. Then in CoS Ch3: "The clock on the wall opposite him [Harry] had only one hand and no numbers at all. Written around the edge were things like 'Time to make tea', 'Time to feed the chickens', and 'You're late'." Now, since those are tasks that Molly would normally perform, I attribute the one hand to Molly, and when that hand turns to one of the "tasks", it is meant to say she should perform that task. Also, one of the little messages is "You're late." Kind of an interesting parallel to Dumbledore's previous assessment from his "no numbers" watch I think. And the final clock in GoF Ch10: "It [Weasley's grandfather clock] was completely unless if you wanted to know the time, but otherwise very informative. It had nine golden hands, and each of them was engraved with one of the Weasley family's names. There were no numerals around the face, but descriptions of where each family member might be. 'Home,' 'School,' and 'work' were there, but there was also 'traveling,' 'lost,' 'hospital,' 'prison,' and, in the position where the number twelve would be on a normal clock, 'mortal peril.'" This clock's intent is to give the general whereabouts of the people assigned to the hands. Once again, there are no numbers, but on this clock, the position are current status of location. We also have the repeat of the word "golden", but that might be coincidental. -- Upon writing that last bit, Melody looked over the few questions to her toy boat posed and turned back to a bit of Catlady's post. Hmm, let's see. ------------ Catlady wrote: If Dumbledore's watch is an astrological watch, with the Earth at the center and the planets orbiting it, the twelve hands could represent the 12 Houses and move in accordance with the watch's latitude as well as the Earth's rotation. Thus the watch could tell him where he is as well as what time it is. ------------ True, true, it could be that simple. If it only told the time based on the planets, then Dumbledore could of been looking at it to observe whether Hagrid had arrived by the time he had set. But, if that is so, why wouldn't Dumbledore, who actually likes Muggles, just have a simple muggle watch? If that was his only intent for the watch, why all the fancy planets and hands? Melody looked over her page of canon references. -- Dumbledore watch characteristics: Weasley clocks: "twelve hands" "one hand" and "nine hands" "no numbers" "no numbers" 'Hagrid's is late' CoS clock "You're late" Only difference so far is:: Dumbledore's watch: "little planets moving around the edge" Weasley clocks: "descriptions" "written around the edges" So I put forth that since the Weasley clock is in a language all the family can understand, then it is possible Dumbledore's watch is in a language he can understand. The little planets are moving in a way so that he can read the intent of the watch. And from this, I theorize that Harry is one of the twelve hands on Dumbledore's watch and thus, Dumbledore is able to draw reconnaissance on Harry. Then Dumbledore can tell that Harry is at the Weasleys or out of his safety ring, or even wandering the Hogwarts castle. Kind of hand that thing. -- Hmm, Melody looked over her sheets on the watches. It seems a great likelihood to her really. Sitting back in the chair, Melody rested her head on the side and looked out the window. Her head felt much better. Seems no real harm done. "How is it that Pip and Grey knew precisely what to do to make me feel better," she commented. "I like staying here." Melody took a deep breath and smiled contently. Melody Parts of this TBAY were written with quotes from the TBAYs of Frankie and Meg numbers 45660 and 45790. From angiebebb at hotmail.com Sun Nov 10 03:01:22 2002 From: angiebebb at hotmail.com (Angie) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 03:01:22 -0000 Subject: The Fate of Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46415 There seems to be a lot of speculation about how, exactly, Harry is going to solve the little problem of disposing of Voldemort. And, as speculation is just that, I feel safe enough in giving my opinion ;) As I have just finished reading CoS, and the part of GoF about the Quidditch World Cup, I have been thinking about Memory charms, especially obliviation. If you are of the camp that doesn't want Harry to become a murderer (even if it is only Voldemort), this seems to be a nice safe option. Voldy is stopped, fairly unviolently, and Harry retains his virtue. I like the obliviation option because it is referred to through-out the books, it hasn't been used in any spectacular way. Not that all spells have to be used in spectacular ways... I don't think you're going to be able to use, say, mobiliarbus very spectacularly :D I also had another thought, as I have also been reading LOTR. Despite all Frodo's best efforts, Saruman ends up dead anyway. It could be like that. Harry is all ready to just turn Voldy over to the dementors, or Obliviate, and (insert favorite character to do in Voldy) rushes up and finishes for him, in a less humane manner. Just a few thoughts, as I have nothing better to do today. :) --Angie, delighted to be able to make LoTR and HP comparisons like all the other posters :D From msbonsai at mninter.net Sun Nov 10 03:58:55 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 03:58:55 -0000 Subject: The Fate of Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46416 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Angie" wrote: > There seems to be a lot of speculation about how, exactly, Harry is > going to solve the little problem of disposing of Voldemort. If you are of the camp that doesn't want Harry to > become a murderer (even if it is only Voldemort), this seems to be a > nice safe option. Voldy is stopped, fairly unviolently, and Harry > retains his virtue. > --Angie, delighted to be able to make LoTR and HP comparisons like > all the other posters :D Snipped a bit ;o) While I think this is a very honorable idea, I'm not so certain it would work. Seems to me if I remember correctly . . . that when deep memory charms are needed (Gosh, to wipe away almost everything through the beginning of his Hogwarts years?) that it makes the people a little bit stupid, to really worthless. Evidences of this. Well in COS, while Lockhart does not say what the reaction of the wizards he put the memory charm on is, we cannot assume what happened to them with it. However, he did put it on himself, however accidental. And seeing as he only needed to charm away a few minutes from Harry and Ron, the result on him seems really rather drastic. We know Lockharts pretty stupid after the Obliviate! spell. At the same time, I suppose he does say he wants to make it appear as if they'd lost their minds . . . (Harry & Ron I mean.) So perhaps he did hit them with a huge spell. Ok, lets move to GOF and Bertha Jorkins. p685 hardcover: "He put a very powerful Memory Charm on her to make her forget what she'd found out. Too powerful. He said it damaged her memory permanently." And I almost remember reading Dumbledore saying something to the effect the she was rather sharp at school, in that she'd remember all sorts of gossip or something like that. Yet in later years at the MOM she seems rather a nitwit. It would seem these charms have to be done just right, and you can't overdo them. I guess it's still a possibility then :o) I don't think I've managed to make my point, but rather support yours! Julie :o) From msbonsai at mninter.net Sun Nov 10 04:10:19 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 04:10:19 -0000 Subject: DEW DROP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46417 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > And from this, I theorize that Harry is one of the twelve hands on > Dumbledore's watch and thus, Dumbledore is able to draw reconnaissance > on Harry. Then Dumbledore can tell that Harry is at the Weasleys or > out of his safety ring, or even wandering the Hogwarts castle. Kind > of hand that thing. > > Melody Hi :o) I'm not very good at writing stories, so I can't say as I can respond so eloquently as you have put it down :o) But perhaps if we are thinking that the 12 hands represent people Dumbledore is watching, or at least, 12 hands that were necessary at the time when Voldemort struck Harry. I mean, hmm. Ok, so if we can perhaps assume that one belongs to Dumbledore himself? And we know one belongs to Harry. I don't know if two would have been taken for people who are dead, but let me try to sort this out and then tell me what you think :o) 1. Dumbledore 2. Harry 3. Pettigrew (would think maybe he knew Pettigrew was alive all this time? 4. Sirius 5. Lupin 6. Lily - if not disappearing hand after death 7. James - same as above 8. Snape 9. McGonagal 10. Hagrid 11. Arabella Figg 12. Mundungus Fletcher Now here I guess I'm at 12! But I can safely say we can probably remove 2 of them as they've passed on . . . but who to replace them with? Julie :o) From Zarleycat at aol.com Sun Nov 10 05:22:08 2002 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 05:22:08 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts' Enchantments Guard Against Unwanted Wizards (WAS:Flying over Hogwarts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46418 > > What is the point of an anti-apparation charm, when you can simply > > fly in and out unnoticed under cover of darkness? Well, yes, but apparation is quick and instant, no matter where you are. Hogwarts still has some protecion because, even with the Charlies of the world flying in under cover of darkness, or Sirius slipping out on Buckbeak, these methods of travel are not instantaneous. There is still the possibility that they will be discovered, as will Voldemort and/or his legions of DEs. This is a protection in the sense that Voldemort can't simply can't appear in the Great Hall one morning, AKing everyone before they have a chance to realize what's happening. And how did > > Charlie's friends locate Hogwarts? Even if they'd been students > > there, they presumably would always have travelled there by the > > Hogwarts Express. If the location is secret, then it is secret and > > known only to a limited few. I'd think that once you've been there, and have a sense of where the castle is in relation to other places, you'd be able to find it, whether you're walking, riding a dragon, or driving a flying car. Speaking for myself, I know that I have a good sense of location. I may not know the exact directions to give someone to get to a place, but once I've been there, I can usually figure out how to get there again. I'm not convinced that Hogwarts is supposed to be invisible to everyone all the time. > > Durmstrang students bubbled up from the middle of the lake on their > > ship; the Beauxbatons students flew in on their carriage; Even if the castle was unplottable to everyone in existence (Wizard and Muggle), don't you think that somehow that unplottable-ness (?) could be lifted for the Triwizard Tournament? > After writing this, I was listening to my audiotape of PoA and came > to the part where the students are in their squashy purple sleeping > bags in the Great Hall on Halloween night after Sirius has attacked > the portrait of the Fat Lady (Ch. 9). Hermione tells Harry and Ron > that "Hogwarts, A History" states that "... the castle's protected by > more than walls, you know. There are all sorts of enchantments on > it, to stop people entering by stealth." > So this statement does *not* support the conclusion I had previously > reached, that the protections are meant to only keep Muggles out. So > I think this still remains a bit of a puzzle. After all, why would > dementors need to be stationed at the entrances to Hogwarts if the > enchantments were sufficient to keep unwanted wizards out? And how > do we explain how other wizards have been able to get onto the > Hogwarts grounds unnoticed? > > I do still think it's a bit telling that we didn't hear about the > inability to apparate or disapparate within the Hogwarts grounds > until PoA, when it became necessary to have such a rule in order to > allow Sirius to be left alone in one of the rooms at Hogwarts. Well, let me take a stab at this, although I do tend to agree with you. Perhaps the protections are that 1) you can't dis/apparate. 2) the castle is invisible except as ruins to Muggles. 3) Unless you've been there and have a sense of where the castle is, in relation to, say, the nearest mountain, the location of Hogwarts is unplottable. The problem arises with the consideration of the protections Hermione talks about. This is borne out by the resence of the Dementors. If the protections around Hogwarts were strong enough to keep out unwanted, evil wizards, then there would be no need to have Dementors protect the school. Unless, of course, that is exactly the case, and the MoM, realizing this, places Dementors around the school simply to scoop up mad Sirius Black when he is unsuccessful in his attempts to get into Hogwarts. In other words, the Ministry expects that Sirius will try to get in to kill Harry, won't be able do it, and then they will happily capture him, give him the Kiss, and accept the kudos of a grateful Wizard world. But, Sirius evidently can invade the school with impunity. Why? Because he really has no evil intent to anyone at the school, except for Peter? But, then the we have the problem of intent in GoF, since Barty Jr./Faux Moody is able to get into Hogwarts with no apparent problem. So, the only explantion I can come up with is that 1-3 above work, and that anything else is pure rumor that people accept as fact. Marianne From oppen at mycns.net Sun Nov 10 06:50:36 2002 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 00:50:36 -0600 Subject: Harry sparing V'mort Message-ID: <020701c28885$7a659220$a7510043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 46419 In the first place, I do _not_ think for one second that for Harry to kill Voldemort would make him as bad as Voldemort! Just think about it for a second. Voldemort killed and harmed many, many people, a large number of whom he had nothing rational against, no real reason to hate, and could have spared perfectly easily. Harry, on the other hand, has excellent reasons to hate and fear Lord Voldemort---or doesn't killing Harry's parents and dooming him to growing up chez Dursley qualify? (If not, I'd honestly appreciate hearing about just what _would!_) Unlike Voldemort, Harry is quite gentle and compassionate (his behavior, again and again, whether to the other kidnappees in the second Triwizard task, Buckbeak, Hagrid, or others, shows this clearly) and, were it not for Voldemort, would certainly never kill anyone. Harry killing V'mort would be more along the lines of killing a mad dog than an actual murder. V'mort has demonstrated, again and again, that when given a choice to be or not be evil, that he will always choose evil. Like Alex, the "hero" of _A Clockwork Orange,_ he "goes to the other shop." He didn't _need_ to kill Cedric Diggory---or Frank Bryce, the old Muggle caretaker of the Riddle House, or a lot of the other people he's killed. A wizard of his skill and talent could have Memory Charmed Frank Bryce, and Imperiused or Petrified Cedric perfectly easily. Even "talentless" Wormtail could have handled those jobs easily enough, had he been allowed to by V'mort. As long as V'mort lives, he is a terrible threat to the Wizard and Muggle worlds alike. Since he's stated for the record that the Dementors will join him, even Azkaban would probably not be enough to hold him. I don't think he can be safely shorn of his powers, and he's demonstrated incredible grit and determination to come back after HP defeated him so decisively once before. Killing him, or something equivalent (remember Hagrid's statement that V'mort "didn't have enough human left in him to die?" Maybe a Dementor snog-fest is what's called for here?) is the only way to deal with him, and remove an incorrigible, sociopathic serial murderer who happens to have incredible power from society. And, in the second place, it _isn't_ the worst thing they could do. If they _could_ strip V'mort of his powers, they could give him to Filch as an assistant and understudy. Or send him to live with the Dursleys... From obby at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Nov 10 07:03:09 2002 From: obby at blueyonder.co.uk (Richard Thorp) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 07:03:09 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry sparing V'mort In-Reply-To: <020701c28885$7a659220$a7510043@hppav> References: <020701c28885$7a659220$a7510043@hppav> Message-ID: <107225389343.20021110070309@blueyonder.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 46420 Sunday, November 10, 2002, 6:50:36 AM, Eric, wrote: EO> In the first place, I do _not_ think for one second that for Harry to kill EO> Voldemort would make him as bad as Voldemort! Just think about it for a EO> second. Voldemort killed and harmed many, many people, a large number of EO> whom he had nothing rational against, no real reason to hate, and could have EO> spared perfectly easily. Harry, on the other hand, has excellent reasons to EO> hate and fear Lord Voldemort---or doesn't killing Harry's parents and EO> dooming him to growing up chez Dursley qualify? (If not, I'd honestly EO> appreciate hearing about just what _would!_) Unlike Voldemort, Harry is EO> quite gentle and compassionate (his behavior, again and again, whether to EO> the other kidnappees in the second Triwizard task, Buckbeak, Hagrid, or EO> others, shows this clearly) and, were it not for Voldemort, would certainly EO> never kill anyone. All a case of stooping to the level of the killers... Would it be right for us to torture and kill prisoners purely because that was what the enemy did to us? I say no... Also, to use a Star Wars stance (and Im sure, some other series/worlds with concepts similar to the force-duality sorta thing), taking up the weapons of the evil people will taint yourself with evil, leading you to a path of evil. Though HP seems to work in a much more black and white world, where people seem not to have many flaws... (Can anyone see a speck of darkness on Harry? Probably.. Id like to know what that is, tho :) EO> Harry killing V'mort would be more along the lines of killing a mad dog than EO> an actual murder. V'mort has demonstrated, again and again, that when given EO> a choice to be or not be evil, that he will always choose evil. Like Alex, EO> the "hero" of _A Clockwork Orange,_ he "goes to the other shop." He didn't EO> _need_ to kill Cedric Diggory---or Frank Bryce, the old Muggle caretaker of EO> the Riddle House, or a lot of the other people he's killed. A wizard of his EO> skill and talent could have Memory Charmed Frank Bryce, and Imperiused or EO> Petrified Cedric perfectly easily. Even "talentless" Wormtail could have EO> handled those jobs easily enough, had he been allowed to by V'mort. Hrm, making a good argument, but Voldie is still a human being (well, part of him is) and killing him by his own means (Harry performing an AK on him for instance) would still be wrong, morally.. I don't know of many people who could live with themselves if they killed someone, even if they *really* deserved it. EO> As long as V'mort lives, he is a terrible threat to the Wizard and Muggle EO> worlds alike. Since he's stated for the record that the Dementors will join EO> him, even Azkaban would probably not be enough to hold him. I don't think EO> he can be safely shorn of his powers, and he's demonstrated incredible grit EO> and determination to come back after HP defeated him so decisively once EO> before. Killing him, or something equivalent (remember Hagrid's statement EO> that V'mort "didn't have enough human left in him to die?" Maybe a Dementor EO> snog-fest is what's called for here?) is the only way to deal with him, and EO> remove an incorrigible, sociopathic serial murderer who happens to have EO> incredible power from society. This (for me) brings up the question of how Wossisname (sorry Im tired and can't remember the name of Voldemorts predecessor as Evil Wizard of the Age) was defeated by Dumbledore.... Is D'dore tainted by an evil act? EO> And, in the second place, it _isn't_ the worst thing they could do. If they EO> _could_ strip V'mort of his powers, they could give him to Filch as an EO> assistant and understudy. Or send him to live with the Dursleys... Hehe, a punishment of making him into the thing he most hates could be described as needlessly cruel, or poetically ironic.. Hum :) -Rich msn: obbles at hotmail.com From revanto at yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 05:34:08 2002 From: revanto at yahoo.com (revanto) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 05:34:08 -0000 Subject: The Fate of Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46421 > There seems to be a lot of speculation about how, exactly, Harry is > going to solve the little problem of disposing of Voldemort. And, as > speculation is just that, I feel safe enough in giving my opinion ;) > As I have > just finished reading CoS, and the part of GoF about the Quidditch > World Cup, I have been thinking about Memory charms, especially > obliviation. If you are of the camp that doesn't want Harry to > become a murderer (even if it is only Voldemort), this seems to be a > nice safe option. Voldy is stopped, fairly unviolently, and Harry > retains his virtue. I like the obliviation option because it is > referred to through-out the books, it hasn't been used in any > spectacular way. > --Angie, delighted to be able to make LoTR and HP comparisons like > all the other posters :D I think un-violent would be the way to go UNLESS Voldemort self destructs IE they cast a spell on him so that whatever he casts hits him. And maybe because of the blood he received from Harry, he can't come back. The blood could have weakened him like some sort of slow acting poison with that little ingredient called "love". Revanto - "Um, I'd like an order of Phoenix and some fries, please." From sugarkadi at aol.com Sun Nov 10 07:52:25 2002 From: sugarkadi at aol.com (sugarkadi at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 02:52:25 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry sparing V'mort Message-ID: <1bc.13c84cd5.2aff6a39@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46422 Rich said: "All a case of stooping to the level of the killers... Would it be > right for us to torture and kill prisoners purely because that was > what the enemy did to us? I say no..." > If you did torture the person who tortured you I would say that that was morally wrong. However, If Harry just kills LV and not all his supporters and doesn't crucio him, I don't really see that as Harry stooping to LV's level. I can see the argument if he uses the AK spell, but maybe he'll use Gryffindor's sword. "Can anyone > see a speck of darkness on Harry? Probably.. Id like to know > what that is, tho :)" Well, Harry *did* think that Black deserved the Dementors Kiss, even though it's worse than death. > "This (for me) brings up the question of how Wossisname (sorry Im tired > and can't remember the name of Voldemorts predecessor as Evil Wizard > of the Age) was defeated by Dumbledore.... Is D'dore tainted by an > evil act?" It's Grindlewald. And maybe. I don't have any thoughts on that. ~Katey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sun Nov 10 09:19:57 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:19:57 +0100 (CET) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Foe Glass/ Voldie's intent In-Reply-To: <013701c2885d$bfe531c0$02a0cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <20021110091957.48994.qmail@web21509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46423 Richelle Votaw wrote: "Iris writes: > they avoid calling his name.They don't face their fear. Voldemort's power is in the > fear he's able to generate.Did Harry survive only because, as a baby, he didn't > know who Voldemort was, and then didn't fear him? I've always wondered about that. Particularly the scene in TMTSNBN (the first one!) where JKR wrote the scene at the Potter's house specifically for the movie. I originally doubted that it was written by her, but after they keep saying it over and over I'm starting to believe them. If it wasn't she'd surely have denied it by now. Anyway, baby Harry is staring dead on at Voldemort. Why? This baby's parents were just killed, I'll admit a 15 month old can't really know what's going on, but still he would know something were wrong if his mother just screamed and collapsed in front of him. With green light and all. But he's just staring at him. Almost an "I dare you to try it" stare. I'll admit right off, it could just be a matter of them not wanting a screaming baby on a "children's" movie. But still, it always seemed odd. And there's nothing in the books to compare it to. Richelle" Iris again: When I wrote my post, I wasn't thinking in the movie, I even didn't know the scene had been writen by JKR herself. I was only thinking in baby behaviour. Let's take examples in our homes: how many babies have accidents with electricity or fire each year? They played with them, they didn't fear them because they just ignored they could be dangerous. They have to get some experience (alas, sometimes it's very painful, even deadly) to fear them. They also have to trust their parents, who tell them they musn't touch the plug or go close to the fireplace, that it is dangerous and can hurt them. Some parents even use fear as an educative resort (be obedient, don't do that, it would hurt you, etc). We inherite one part of our own fears from what other people tell us, and one part from our own experience. In Harry's case, I like to think he faced Voldemort and survived the Avada Kedavra because he didn't know he had to fear them. He was too young, his parents didn't have the time to instil into him the fear of the Dark Lord. and that's interesting, because it means that Harry survived not only thanks to Lily's love, but also thanks to his own innocence (an "innocent", if we take the latin origin of the word, is literally "someone who doesn't know"). Just quite the opposite of Tom Riddle, packed with hatred and dark knowledge, packed with fear of dying, of being rejected. Something Voldemort can't understand, and he has no power to destroy. Iris, who doesn't think the movie has to be taken as an analysisng resort, but loves its casting. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sun Nov 10 10:28:51 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:28:51 +0100 (CET) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry sparing V'mort In-Reply-To: <1bc.13c84cd5.2aff6a39@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021110102851.44560.qmail@web21503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46424 sugarkadi at aol.com wrote: "Rich said: "All a case of stooping to the level of the killers... Would it be > right for us to torture and kill prisoners purely because that was > what the enemy did to us? I say no..." > If you did torture the person who tortured you I would say that that was morally wrong. However, If Harry just kills LV and not all his supporters and doesn't crucio him, I don't really see that as Harry stooping to LV's level. I can see the argument if he uses the AK spell, but maybe he'll use Gryffindor's sword. "Can anyone > see a speck of darkness on Harry? Probably.. Id like to know > what that is, tho :)" Well, Harry *did* think that Black deserved the Dementors Kiss, even though it's worse than death. " And to think some friend of mine told me the HP series has no interest... We are right in the debate about death sentence, don't we? I'd like to take in saying that killing Voldemort and all the Death Eaters wouldn't kill their ideology. The Dark Side, according to JKR, is not only dangerous powers, it's also a way of thinking that involves prejudice, intolerance, contempt,etc... I'm afraid every character in the WW, even the good guys (except, maybe Dumbledore,Hermione and Arthur Weasley)sometimes give signs of prejudice (ex: even Ron seems to consider that the House Elves can't be nothing except slave), intolerance ( ex: Sirius couldn't stand Snape when they were kids, because Snape was odd), and contempt (ex: Ron and Harry lauthing at Trelawney). They are humans, so they can't avoid it. Voldemort and Co have no monopoly in that kind of ideas, though they defend them eagerly. Killing them all won't prevent other wizards from developing "dark ideology". The ideology that generated the Dark Side has to be denounced and condemned. The WW has to face its own responsability in the raise of Voldemort. Just like our society does with criminals(murderers, terrorists, war criminals...). The solution is not only a duel between Voldemort and Harry, it's also a thinking reform. Iris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sun Nov 10 08:26:13 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 02:26:13 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How many students at Hogwarts? References: Message-ID: <3DCE1825.421A1C1C@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46425 Rowling cannot possibly list EVERY student in the school and there are likely more professors and classes we have not heard her mention yet. We don't even know the names of the Muggle Studies and Ancient Runes Professors. The History Professor is a ghost and never sits at the head table during meals, far as we can see, possibly as he is a ghost and doesn't need to eat. All we have to go on is Rowling stating there are about a thousand students. Maybe in future books, we will hear more about other classes being taught and other professors. There is no real 'count' of first year students and many are skipped over in the story for space reasons and to keep from boring the pants off the readers. For all we know, there may be over 100 students added each year and we just don't hear about them all. They might even have split sessions, evening classes, etc. that we never hear about (yet).. Who knows what will be added in future books. We can only make educated guesses based on what the author tells us... Jazmyn From notcarlos at hotmail.com Sun Nov 10 13:28:56 2002 From: notcarlos at hotmail.com (Jacob Lewis) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 07:28:56 -0600 Subject: Memory-Charmed!Voldemort References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46426 Angie first suggested a memory charm in lieu of Voldie being six-by-six in the ground. Then Julie gave evidence that memory charms are hard to do ("Now, let's see, how's that memory charm go again?"), and wonders whether Memory-Charmed!Voldemort would work: > While I think this is a very honorable idea, I'm not so certain it > would work. Seems to me if I remember correctly . . . that when deep > memory charms are needed (Gosh, to wipe away almost everything > through the beginning of his Hogwarts years?) that it makes the > people a little bit stupid, to really worthless. I also wonder at this, not only because it would take a HUGE spell to erase around sixty, seventy years' memory of life, but I think it would take a lot of power to do so, power that, at seventeen, perhaps our young Hero wouldn't have. Remember, it takes six or seven handlers to get a Hungarian Horntail stunned, and Voldemort is powerful, with a lot of charms and wards built around him to prevent, say, accidental re-death by sneaky assassination, that sort of thing (thinking here of, well, every paranoid, power-hungry dictator/demagogue/despot he's ever encountered). Would a memory charm work, even if you weakened him? Could you weaken him in the first place? If you did, would he get a cell in the madhouse next to the Longbottoms, for true poetic justice? Hm... it would be nice to think that a quick memory spell would do the trick, and then everything would be sunshine and daises, but I just don't know -- seems a bit of a let-down. (Sort of like the Mad Magazine parody of TMTSNBN: "We destroyed the Cirrhosis Stone, Harry." "Great! If you were going to destroy the stone anyway, why couldn't you have done that at the BEGINNING of the movie?") Jacob From holymotherofgod at hotmail.com Sun Nov 10 14:19:30 2002 From: holymotherofgod at hotmail.com (skyw1ngs) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:19:30 -0000 Subject: The four founders Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46427 I think there is little doubt that every little detail of the incredible world of Harry Potter was created years and years ago. What I am really interested in (outside the Ron/Hermione dynamic *g*) is the history of Hogwarts. In particular, the story of the four founders. I'll bet that JK has written a rich background with these four and I'm hoping that once she's finished writing the seventh, she'll write a tremendous eighth, a prequel to the Harry Potter books. If all seven movies do indeed get made, I'd love to see an eighth too. Does anyone else think there is a possibility of at least an eighth book? It's something I'd love to read and I'm willing to wait seven years for it. skywings. From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 10 15:38:20 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 15:38:20 -0000 Subject: DEW DROP hands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46428 Ah, Julie, I love you. Let's see. What could the hands stand for? I started wondering that last night but decided to cut the TBAY short. But, if my watch theory is correct, then those hands must stand for twelve different people. I wonder if creatures count as well. I wrote: >And from this, I theorize that Harry is one of the twelve hands on >Dumbledore's watch and thus, Dumbledore is able to draw >reconnaissance on Harry. Then Dumbledore can tell that Harry is at >the Weasleys or out of his safety ring, or even wandering the >Hogwarts castle. Kind of handy that thing. Julie added: >>But perhaps if we are thinking that the 12 hands represent people >>Dumbledore is watching, or at least, 12 hands that were necessary at >>the time when Voldemort struck Harry. Julie then listed what the twelve hands could be: > 1. Dumbledore > 2. Harry > 3. Pettigrew (would think maybe he knew Pettigrew was alive all this >time? > 4. Sirius > 5. Lupin > 6. Lily - if not disappearing hand after death > 7. James - same as above > 8. Snape > 9. McGonagall > 10. Hagrid > 11. Arabella Figg > 12. Mundungus Fletcher Ok #1. Dumbledore. >From the models of the Weasley clocks I think we could add Dumbledore as one of the hands. Kind of a self-assessment of what to do like Molly's kitchen clock. #2. Harry. This one I find a bit tricky. Would he be on the watch before Voldemort's fall? After all, Dumbledore said "Hagrid's late." I think Harry might of been added after Voldie's fall, and it was Hagrid's hand Dumbledore is appraising. Either way, Harry is now one of the hands, which is what I was trying to prove from the beginning so it is not like I want to throw this character off the watch. :) #3-5. Peter, Sirius, Lupin. Eeehhh. I'm not so sure. Though if all three are part of the "old crowd" then I could see that they would have a purpose for being on the watch. #6-7. James and Lily. Highly likely. Easy way to keep watch on them from a distance. Also could be why Dumbledore knew they had been killed. #8. Snape. Definitely. Was then and still is now. Nice to be able to keep tabs on a spy. #9. McGonagall. I'm not so sure. Dumbledore, while he was not surprised McG was at Privet Dr, did not seem to expect her there. It is vague as the whether she is part of the "old crowd", so maybe she is just a colleague and that is all. Since Flitwick and Trelawney probably do not have an assigned hand, I doubt she would. But I will say, out of those three, I would say McG is the most likely to have a hand dedicated to her. #10. Hagrid. Also, very likely. Hagrid definitely is a strong corner in Dumbledore's circle. For some reason I always think of him as Dumbledore's Luca Brasi from the Godfather. Kind and a bit slow, but very loyal. And we all know where Luca Brasi ends up sleeping. ;) [Sorry for those that have not seen the movie or read the book.] #11-12. Figg and Fletcher I think if the Marauders are on the watch, then Figg and Fletcher probably are too. Now, granted, not all of the above may have a hand. Some Dumbledore might not need to have on the watch. Like does he need both Lily and James? I think it is possible for Dumbledore to have a hand dedicated to his brother Albie as well. Nice to keep up with family like that. I'm not sure who could be placed in the now empty hands of James and Lily. Maybe Molly and Arthur. Or Ron and Hermione. Maybe Dumbledore likes to keep tabs on Fawkes. Or even Buckbeak. I'm also assuming you can't put you enemies on the watch, or Dumbledore could have a hand dedicated to Voldemort. Hey! Maybe he does, and that is how he *knows* where the guy is. Hmmm, possible but probably unlikely. Besides, being able to read the planets on Voldemort would be very depressing I think. Any other suggestions or definitely no's out there? Melody who is annoyed that 'tabs' button does not work when you post and thus her cute little comparison table in her TBAY got all squished. Grrrr. From msbonsai at mninter.net Sun Nov 10 15:42:16 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 15:42:16 -0000 Subject: Evening Classes: Was How many students at Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: <3DCE1825.421A1C1C@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46429 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jazmyn wrote: > For all we know, there may be over 100 students added each year and we > just don't hear about them all. They might even have split sessions, > evening classes, etc. that we never hear about (yet).. Who knows what > will be added in future books. We can only make educated guesses based > on what the author tells us... > > Jazmyn I could have *sworn* those Astronomy sessions were at night ;o) Julie From msbonsai at mninter.net Sun Nov 10 16:12:57 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 16:12:57 -0000 Subject: DEW DROP hands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46430 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > #2. Harry. > This one I find a bit tricky. Would he be on the watch before > Voldemort's fall? Yeah, I would think so :o) The thing I see is two different senarios with him being on the watch. The first is (and of course this means that Dumbledore would be adding and subtracting hands as he needs, which we have no further evidence of the number of hands on his watch!) that if Dumbledore knew that Harry was one of Voldemorts targets, he'd want to keep tabs on him too. The second would be that he's had a chance to change his watch/add/subtract hands, (maybe this only takes a second) as it's been *roughly* 24 hours since the murders. > #3-5. Peter, Sirius, Lupin. > Eeehhh. I'm not so sure. Though if all three are part of the "old > crowd" then I could see that they would have a purpose for being on > the watch. I think they were all part of the "old crowd" I can think of arguments against this, as in, Dumbledore does not know who the spy is. But at the same time, perhaps he knew, and that is why he was suprised when Sirius seems to have betrayed them. But then, I have to wonder, he must have known Pettigrew was still alive. But then again, maybe it doesn't see them animorphing? Hmm . . . too many possibilities here. Then again, maybe Dumbledore doesn't quite know how to proove that people are innocent, as he was able to spare Snape, the evidence against Sirius is just too much. This would explain how readilly he accepts Sirius' story. > > #6-7. James and Lily. > Highly likely. Easy way to keep watch on them from a distance. Also > could be why Dumbledore knew they had been killed. See, now here's where I'm not so sure they're on the watch anymore. If Dumbledore has had a chance to remove them as they've passed on, then who are these two hands for? > > #8. Snape. > Definitely. Was then and still is now. Nice to be able to keep tabs > on a spy. I definately think Snape is one of them. > > #9. McGonagall. > I'm not so sure. Dumbledore, while he was not surprised McG was at > Privet Dr, did not seem to expect her there. It is vague as the > whether she is part of the "old crowd", so maybe she is just a > colleague and that is all. I admit, it's a bit hard to figure this one out. Dumbledore does look at the cat, chuckle, and say "I should have known." But, it doesn't show him looking at his watch before this. After all, it's a pocket and not a wrist watch. Hmm, another question just popped into my head, if McGonagal had talked to Hagrid and therefore knew to find Dumbledore there, how did she not know that Hagrid had Harry??? Hagrid must not have had Harry at this point in time. At any rate . . . > > #10. Hagrid. > Also, very likely. Hagrid definitely is a strong corner in > Dumbledore's circle. Gotta believe he's on the watch. > #11-12. Figg and Fletcher > I think if the Marauders are on the watch, then Figg and Fletcher > probably are too. Can't argue with you :o) > Now, granted, not all of the above may have a hand. Some Dumbledore > might not need to have on the watch. Like does he need both Lily and > James? Now here is where I go back up to the top, and well, first of all, they may not be there anymore because they've passed on, and Dumbledore took them off. At the same time, I think he'd want both on there in case something happened to one but not the other. But if Voldemort wasn't after Lily and Dumbledore knew that, but then again, he'd want to know if Voldemort were using her as leverage to get to James and Harry . . . > > I think it is possible for Dumbledore to have a hand dedicated to his > brother Albie as well. Nice to keep up with family like that. There we go :o) Could be one of the 12 hands, and could replace Lily. But then who to replace James? > I'm not sure who could be placed in the now empty hands of James and > Lily. Maybe Molly and Arthur. Or Ron and Hermione. Maybe Dumbledore > likes to keep tabs on Fawkes. Or even Buckbeak. See, I like to think he can add many more hands ;o) Pocket watches can be quite large actually. > I'm also assuming you can't put you enemies on the watch, or > Dumbledore could have a hand dedicated to Voldemort. Hey! Maybe he > does, and that is how he *knows* where the guy is. Hmmm, possible but > probably unlikely. Besides, being able to read the planets on > Voldemort would be very depressing I think. Well, here, I'm not so sure. He could be the tab that's on there instead of James. But at the same time, he always refers to his "Spies" knowing where Voldemort is. > Any other suggestions or definitely no's out there? > Melody hehehe We're going to get to the bottom of this one eventually aren't we? Julie From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 10 16:50:18 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 16:50:18 -0000 Subject: Harry shouldn't spare V'mort In-Reply-To: <20021110102851.44560.qmail@web21503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46431 Rich said: > > "All a case of stooping to the level of the killers... Would it be > > right for us to torture and kill prisoners purely because that was > > what the enemy did to us? I say no..." Iris wrote: > If you did torture the person who tortured you I would say that that > was morally wrong. **snip** I can see the argument if he uses the > AK spell, but maybe he'll use Gryffindor's sword. Eric Oppen countered: >Harry killing V'mort would be more along the lines of killing a mad >dog than an actual murder. V'mort has demonstrated, again and again, >that when given a choice to be or not be evil, that he will always >choose evil. Guys, while a debate on whether murder can be justified is rather interesting, the question is whether the moralities in the books find that kind of death acceptable. I, for one, come from a state that loves the death penalty. It is a running joke here in America. I normally do not voice an opinion either way, and I really do not want to jump on the morality horse because it is not as black and white as it seems. It is a lovely shade of grey. :) >From my perspective, there are pre-prescribed punishments to a crime. Certain crimes have certain punishments that are universally known in the law books. Now yes, the punishments can be seen as inhumane, but for now, what is there is well known, and the criminals know the punishments of their acts *before* they make their decisions. This being said, I am *not* saying whether torture and death punishments are inhumane or immoral. I am saying that the punishment is well known. Like being sentenced to Azkaban for performing a forbidden curse. All know it. All take note of it. Now, the question posed is whether murder of a completely guilty character (i.e. Voldemort) is acceptable to the point that the "good guys" can sleep at night. Well, I like Eric Oppen's point. After all, Harry had no problem killing the Basilisk in CoS. Yes, yes, it is an animal, but in PoA Hermione and Harry when two hours back just to save an animal really. The reason Harry had no problem killing the Basilisk is that it was trying to kill him. I know basic logic there. When something attacks you, you try to make it stop *whatever* the means. Harry does this in the Mirror room as well. He hands were blistering Quirrell to get him away from hurting Harry. Harry did not stop and think, "Hey, that might hurt him. He does not deserve to be in pain just because he wants to kill me. I should try and get help to take him to prison. That is more humane." No, Harry just reacted and got the man off him. But what if, they do manage to capture Voldemort and have to decide what to do with him. From the books, what would the WW decide? Well, besides the fact it matter who is in charge then, what does the morals of the story want them to do with Voldemort? Maybe that is what y'all are debating. Hmmm, from the looks of it, it seems murder is acceptable when the character is in the process of trying to murder you. Yet, Harry baulked when he had the chance to murder Sirius and Peter. Even when he could of murdered Voldemort in the graveyard. Our little hero only draws his sword when it is the *only* thing between him and death. But back to Voldie the prisoner. Given that the four that tortured the Longbottoms got life in Azkaban, I am prone to believe the same would be true for Voldemort. All the death eaters, at least the ones that got caught, are in Azkaban as well unless they put up a fight and thus got "defensively" murdered. Another case is good old Barty Jr. Seems Fudge had no problem letting a Dementor kiss him. ::sigh:: Poor Barty. I'll miss him. Death *is* thought to be better than that kiss. That fact seem to be know in the WW. So if they did *just* kill Voldemort, it is not as bad as if they let the dementor suck out him soul...if in fact he has one. Wait, I'm sorry. I'm wrong. He has a soul; he just has no heart. So I am one to go out on a limb and say that the WW would allow Voldemort to be subject to the death penalty. In a way it is more humane than the possibilities. It is a fast remedy to a *tremendous* problem. Kind of like the death penalty on Timothy McVain (hope I spelled that right) here in the States with the Oklahoma City bombing. Even those against the death penalty still wanted his to receive the shot. He, in their eyes, deserved that punishment. Oh and another thing (yes I know this is long, sorry) Iris wrote: >I'd like to take in saying that killing Voldemort and all the Death >Eaters wouldn't kill their ideology. Very true Iris. The ideology seems to be what the whole book is about. Still, it is easier to remove the "bad blood" and fix the problem than try to work to purify the blood. I don't see a DEA (Death Eaters Anonymous) club being formed to reform them. After all, Azkaban is not a reform program. Hopefully by the end of book seven, the WW will see they are wrong to hold such prejudices against Muggles. I would agree that an environment that feeds off such lies is not a healthy one. It may take years, like here in the South, but it can happen. But having said that, removing prejudices does not stop evil from returning. Killing Voldemort and scattering his supporters is what has to be done not so evil will go away, but so everyone can live. Evil can never be tucked away. It is always present and always an option. Melody From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Sun Nov 10 19:27:57 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 19:27:57 -0000 Subject: DEW DROP hands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46432 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" wrote: > > Any other suggestions or definitely no's out there? > > Melody > > > hehehe We're going to get to the bottom of this one eventually > aren't we? I love this theory. How about Crouch? If I were Dumbledore, I would definitely want to know where that man was. Admittedly, this may not work. I'm assuming that if you don't want to be on the watch, you can keep yourself off the watch, as Voldemort no doubt does. But Crouch might just have decided that it would be best if Dumbledore knew where he was if anything went wrong. After all, it would say "Azkaban" or "Ministry," not what Crouch was up to. This explains why Dumbledore didn't start a real search for Crouch in GoF, once he started not showing up for work. After all, the watch said "Home." (And not "Mortal Peril" because Crouch wasn't in mortal peril at the time.) After he escaped, it would have said "Traveling" which would have been when Dumbledore realized that something was definitely up besides Crouch being ill. Eileen From kattrap_meow at yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 19:13:12 2002 From: kattrap_meow at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 19:13:12 -0000 Subject: Harry sparing V'mort In-Reply-To: <107225389343.20021110070309@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46433 > Rich Said: > This (for me) brings up the question of how Wossisname (sorry Im tired > and can't remember the name of Voldemorts predecessor as Evil Wizard > of the Age) was defeated by Dumbledore.... Is D'dore tainted by an > evil act? Ah, but here we see that Dumbledore _defeated_ Grindlwald (probably spelled wrong). There is no mention of Dumbledore actually _killing_ him. There are other ways to defeat a person without taking their life. -Andrea; who it seems, is the OTHER Andrea on this list. From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 19:58:12 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:58:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Chocolate Frog Card (was: Harry sparing V'mort) In-Reply-To: <1bc.13c84cd5.2aff6a39@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021110195812.76187.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46434 Rich said: "This (for me) brings up the question of how Wossisname (sorry Im tired and can't remember the name of Voldemorts predecessor as Evil Wizard of the Age) was defeated by Dumbledore.... Is D'dore tainted by an evil act?" Then sugarkadi at aol.com wrote: It's Grindlewald. And maybe. I don't have any thoughts on that. Me: My thoughts on this are as follows: on Dumbledore's Chocolate Frog card (which I believe will be more useful than just associating the headmaster with Nicolas Flamel) it said that Dumbledore DEFEATED the dark wizard, Grindelwald. Not KILLED, but DEFEATED. Defeated how? you're all asking now. Excellent question. How, if Grindelwald wasn't killed, did he cease to be a threat? Whatever Dumbledore did, I don't believe it "taints" him or is a dark act; I do believe that what he did is the reason for Voldemort being afraid of Dumbledore. I also believe that JKR chose her words very carefully when she wrote what appeared on that card, and that she would never make Dumbledore a killer. As early as the first book, in fact, McGonagall sounded like she was both praising Dumbledore for not stooping to Voldemort's level and sounding a wee bit as though she wished he would, so they would have been rid of him sooner. (Perhaps Voldemort should be more afraid of McGonagall? She's one tough cookie. ) At any rate, the card is good evidence that if Dumbledore didn't need to kill a dark wizard to defeat him (if he killed him, why wouldn't it have said so quite clearly?), Harry won't need to either. I still believe that Voldemort will do something stupid himself to end his second reign of terror, which is pretty much how it happened the first time, but that it will be permanent this time around. I also believe that the information that Dumbledore likes to bowl and listen to chamber music will come in handy, but I can't think how at this time... --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sun Nov 10 20:31:02 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:31:02 +0100 (CET) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry shouldn't spare V'mort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021110203102.37805.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46435 Melody wrote: Iris wrote: > If you did torture the person who tortured you I would say that that > was morally wrong. **snip** I can see the argument if he uses the > AK spell, but maybe he'll use Gryffindor's sword. Iris again: It wasn't me. I don't know who wrote it, mais c'?tait pas moi, m'dame! However, I take advantage of the opportunity to add that there's a big gap between theory and experience, as the question of Harry sparing or not Voldemort tends to prove it. Few of us actually know what they would be able to do in such a case whichever opinion they have on th subject. The most important is netherveless questionning and questionning again. And that's why JKR's books are so precious in a world that tends to give up thinking by itself... Iris --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oppen at mycns.net Sun Nov 10 20:50:09 2002 From: oppen at mycns.net (ericoppen) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 20:50:09 -0000 Subject: Harry sparing V'mort In-Reply-To: <107225389343.20021110070309@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46436 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Richard Thorp wrote: > Sunday, November 10, 2002, 6:50:36 AM, Eric, wrote: > > EO> In the first place, I do _not_ think for one second that for Harry to kill > EO> Voldemort would make him as bad as Voldemort! Just think about it for a > EO> second. Voldemort killed and harmed many, many people, a large number of > EO> whom he had nothing rational against, no real reason to hate, and could have > EO> spared perfectly easily. Harry, on the other hand, has excellent reasons to > EO> hate and fear Lord Voldemort---or doesn't killing Harry's parents and > EO> dooming him to growing up chez Dursley qualify? (If not, I'd honestly > EO> appreciate hearing about just what _would!_) Unlike Voldemort, Harry is > EO> quite gentle and compassionate (his behavior, again and again, whether to > EO> the other kidnappees in the second Triwizard task, Buckbeak, Hagrid, or > EO> others, shows this clearly) and, were it not for Voldemort, would certainly > EO> never kill anyone. > > All a case of stooping to the level of the killers... Would it be > right for us to torture and kill prisoners purely because that was > what the enemy did to us? I say no... Now, just a second here. I said nothing above about torturing V'mort (although making him live, _sans_ power, at the Dursleys' could easily qualify, at least in psychological terms). As far as we know in the Potterverse, death itself is not painful. Otherwise, Moaning Myrtle would have mentioned it...at length, knowing her. I am in favor of killing Voldemort mainly because he has repeatedly demonstrated that he is much too dangerous to be allowed to live, and that, given a choice, he will always choose the evil side. Frank Bryce had done nothing wrong (he was the caretaker and it was his _job_ to investigate break-ins at The Riddle House) and neither had Cedric Diggory, save to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. > > Also, to use a Star Wars stance (and Im sure, some other series/worlds > with concepts similar to the force-duality sorta thing), taking up the > weapons of the evil people will taint yourself with evil, leading you > to a path of evil. Which is where I and Star Wars part company, frankly. I _don't_ want to go into tons o' philosophy here, but IMNSHO resorting to violence to destroy a known danger does not, in and of itself, make those who have had to defend themselves as evil as the aggressors. There is a big difference between _initiating_ aggression (as V'mort did, again and again and again) and taking whatever steps are necessary to stop the aggression, even including violence and the DP. Even if Harry _does_ have a taint of evil around him, that only makes him human. "Too-good-to-be-true" heroes died with the Victorian Age, and good riddance to them, says I. > EO> Harry killing V'mort would be more along the lines of killing a mad dog than > EO> an actual murder. V'mort has demonstrated, again and again, that when given > EO> a choice to be or not be evil, that he will always choose evil. Like Alex, > EO> the "hero" of _A Clockwork Orange,_ he "goes to the other shop." He didn't > EO> _need_ to kill Cedric Diggory---or Frank Bryce, the old Muggle caretaker of > EO> the Riddle House, or a lot of the other people he's killed. A wizard of his > EO> skill and talent could have Memory Charmed Frank Bryce, and Imperiused or > EO> Petrified Cedric perfectly easily. Even "talentless" Wormtail could have > EO> handled those jobs easily enough, had he been allowed to by V'mort. > > Hrm, making a good argument, but Voldie is still a human being (well, > part of him is) and killing him by his own means (Harry performing an > AK on him for instance) would still be wrong, morally.. I don't know > of many people who could live with themselves if they killed someone, > even if they *really* deserved it. I do :} It's quite different from, say, killing an acquaintance over some stupid argument. As I've said, V'mort has repeatedly demonstrated that _nothing else will work to stop him._ After his big defeat at Harry Potter's hands (when the kid was _one?_)had I been in his shoes I'd've done some _very_ hard re-thinking about my goals, my methods, and my behavior. He seems only to have been sorry that he had been balked in attaining Ultimate Power. Even most "real" murderers (case in point: Lizzy Borden) seem to get along with themselves just fine. It's more in bad fiction and TV that you see someone so haunted by "oh, I _killed_ someone! I murdered another human being!" that they go off the deep end. > EO> And, in the second place, it _isn't_ the worst thing they could do. If they > EO> _could_ strip V'mort of his powers, they could give him to Filch as an > EO> assistant and understudy. Or send him to live with the Dursleys... > > Hehe, a punishment of making him into the thing he most hates could be > described as needlessly cruel, or poetically ironic.. Hum :) > > -Rich In fact, if V'mort _had_ attained immortality, and couldn't be killed, it would be possible to send him to a literal eternity of punishment without even the merciful release of death. I do think that a virtual-reality program called "Submissive Love Slave To Dudley Dursley" is going a _tad_ overboard...*evil giggle* but I read a story once where a vampire reflected that one bad side to his condition was that if he fell into the wrong people's hands, they would be able to torture him for centuries if they wanted to, and he couldn't even die. From msbonsai at mninter.net Sun Nov 10 21:14:55 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:14:55 -0000 Subject: Harry sparing V'mort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46437 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ericoppen" wrote: Rich: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Richard Thorp wrote: > > Hrm, making a good argument, but Voldie is still a human being > (well,> > part of him is) and killing him by his own means (Harry performing> an> > AK on him for instance) would still be wrong, morally.. I don't know> > of many people who could live with themselves if they killed> someone,> > even if they *really* deserved it. > Eric: > I do :} It's quite different from, say, killing an acquaintance over > some stupid argument. As I've said, V'mort has repeatedly > demonstrated that _nothing else will work to stop him._ > Even most "real" murderers (case in point: Lizzy Borden) seem to get > along with themselves just fine. It's more in bad fiction and TV > that you see someone so haunted by "oh, I _killed_ someone! I > murdered another human being!" that they go off the deep end. Me: Hmm, I'm suprised you used Lizzy Bordon. I would be more inclined to compare Voldie with Charles Manson than a poor girl driven insane by her parents. After all, she didn't go off killing others did she? You'll have to correct me if I'm wrong. However, Manson, he likes to play that he is completely sane, always trying to get released . . . yet we all know that if he were released, he would continue to manipulate the minds of people until they started to follow him, and the murders and other things that happened would continue once more. It seems to me that we hear a LOT of stories of real life murderers who are incredibly sorry for what they've done, and come back to oh say, finding God, and making a different life for themselves. Whether they're really sorry or not, that's between them and God. And I feel sorry for the committees that have to make decisions concerning their life changes. But I also feel that as Melody said, "Guys, while a debate on whether murder can be justified is rather interesting, the question is whether the moralities in the books find that kind of death acceptable." And I tend to agree with Melody. If it happens that Harry must kill him in order to save himself, I think that will happen, because it seems in line with the book. And if for some reason he is saveable, Harry will attempt to do that. I simply do not see the dementor's kiss as being appropriate either. Voldie could offer them so much more, they'd be more inclined to help release him. Besides I don't think Dumbledore will allow them to continue to serve Azkaban in the end. I'm sure they'll go over to Voldie's side. Just my opinion as always ;o) Julie From jbryson at richmond.infi.net Sun Nov 10 22:24:59 2002 From: jbryson at richmond.infi.net (tex23236) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 22:24:59 -0000 Subject: Harry sparing V'mort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46438 > But I also feel that as Melody said, "Guys, while a debate on whether > murder can be justified is rather interesting, the question is > whether the moralities in the books find that kind of death > acceptable." The books, yes. We need to remember that Harry will not kill Voldemort. If he dies, JKR will kill him. If we assume a "happy" ending to the books, Voldemort will be out of the picture. JKR will decide how, and we need to base our predictions on what she has done before. My guess is that V will die from a reflection of a curse he tries on Harry. Or not. Maybe he will be confined to one of those magical pictures in the halls. JKR seems to like people finally getting their due. Tex Wondering if Filch is in fact Grindlewald... From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 22:27:14 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:27:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry sparing V'mort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021110222714.7321.qmail@web20002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46439 > > Also, to use a Star Wars stance (and Im sure, some > other > series/worlds > > with concepts similar to the force-duality sorta > thing), taking up > the > > weapons of the evil people will taint yourself > with evil, leading > you > > to a path of evil. > > Which is where I and Star Wars part company, > frankly. I _don't_ want > to go into tons o' philosophy here, but IMNSHO > resorting to violence > to destroy a known danger does not, in and of > itself, make those who > have had to defend themselves as evil as the > aggressors. There is a > big difference between _initiating_ aggression (as > V'mort did, again > and again and again) and taking whatever steps are > necessary to stop > the aggression, even including violence and the DP. > Forgive me for meandering off-topic here, but that' not the way I interpret SW. It's not destroying the evil that makes you as evil as the agressors. It's acting in anger leads to the dark side. If you killed because you were defending yourself or someone else, or because it had to be done, that would not lead to the dark side. Killing (or acting) out of rage rather than reason is what gets ya. I personally think that Harry killing Voldemort is alright as long as he doesn't sneak up on him in his sleep. Actually, in other books/shows, I wouldn't mind the assassination, but it's not appropriate the HP fandom. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From Ali at zymurgy.org Sun Nov 10 22:28:07 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 22:28:07 -0000 Subject: Harry shouldn't spare V'mort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46440 Melody wrote:- > Guys, while a debate on whether murder can be justified is rather > interesting, the question is whether the moralities in the books find that kind of death acceptable. > From my perspective, there are pre-prescribed punishments to a crime. Certain crimes have certain punishments that are universally known in the law books. Now yes, the punishments can be seen as inhumane, but for now, what is there is well known, and the criminals know the punishments of their acts *before* they make their decisions. > big snip > > > Hmmm, from the looks of it, it seems murder is acceptable when the > character is in the process of trying to murder you. Yet, Harry > baulked when he had the chance to murder Sirius and Peter. Even when he could of murdered Voldemort in the graveyard. Our little hero only draws his sword when it is the *only* thing between him and death. I say:- Killing somebody in self defence is not murder. It's justifiable homicide. There is no punishment for it, the perpetuator of the act is guilty of no crime. If the question is kill or be killed, and Harry killed, then Harry would be innocent. That is a very different scenario to having an unarmed and defenceless Sirius at his feet. Killing here, would have been murder - in England we have no degrees of murder, just murder. > Melody;- > But back to Voldie the prisoner. Given that the four that tortured > the Longbottoms got life in Azkaban, I am prone to believe the same > would be true for Voldemort. > SNIP > > Death *is* thought to be better than that kiss. That fact seem to be know in the WW. So if they did *just* kill Voldemort, it is not as > bad as if they let the dementor suck out him soul...if in fact he has one. > > Wait, I'm sorry. I'm wrong. He has a soul; he just has no heart. > > So I am one to go out on a limb and say that the WW would allow > Voldemort to be subject to the death penalty. In a way it is more > humane than the possibilities. It is a fast remedy to a tremendous* problem. > > Iris wrote: > >I'd like to take in saying that killing Voldemort and all the Death > >Eaters wouldn't kill their ideology. >. > Melody again:- > But having said that, removing prejudices does not stop evil from > returning. Killing Voldemort and scattering his supporters is what > has to be done not so evil will go away, but so everyone can live. > Evil can never be tucked away. It is always present and always an > option. > I think that you've high lighted both why the Death Penalty remains such a debated issue in the world today, and why it's appropriate to discuss it in the realms of Harry Potter. JKR's background with Amnesty International and her using the odious Vernon Dursley to spout pro-hanging diatribes leave us knowing exactly where she stands. Yet the issue of the Kiss confuses me. For the souless state to be worth than death, it almost presupposes that there is a next great adventure for all to go to. And yet, would that be available to those responsible for appalling crimes? A souless state being worse than death, meaning that there is not a "hell" (in the Christian sense here). On a slightly different note, I would argue with the idea that Fudge *ordered* Crouch junior to be Kissed. As I understood it, he wasn't sufficiently in control of the dementor to stop it kissing - and didn't really care either. But, if you subscribe to the Fudge-is-evil camp, then I can understand why you would think the kiss was ordered. I am sure that as we find out more about death and the afterlife in the Potterverse that I might understand better the full implications of the Kiss. I don't think that I'm ready to agree with you that the WW would agree to use the Death Penalty against Voldemort. That implies that they have that penalty on their statute book. If they did, why wasn't it used on Sirius? I do agree that the WW justice system remains cloaked in ambiguity but I see no evidence about the death penalty - yet* The question about what to do with the likes of Voldemort in the absence of the Death Penalty remains a moot issue in countries without the death penalty. If judicial murder is wrong, isn't it always wrong regardless of the crime perpetuated? I should say at this point that I do not agree with the D.P., and yet, would a living Voldemort pose too strong a threat to society. Their best outcome would be for him to lose all his powers or die fighting. * Funnily enough I see this being more of an issue in relation to Harry. One of the many theories that churns through my brain has Fudge in a quasi Pontius Pilate position, ready to hand Harry over to the mob's desires. It is quite easy to speculate that the adulation Harry has received about being the "Boy Who Lived" could quickly turn to hatred and fear. Fudge certainly seems weak enough to hand Harry over to a kangaroo court, if it would safeguard his position in society. Ali From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 10 22:51:11 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 22:51:11 -0000 Subject: Harry sparing V'mort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46441 I wrote: >>"Guys, while a debate on whether murder can be justified is rather >>interesting, the question is whether the moralities in the books >>find that kind of death acceptable." Tex wrote: > The books, yes. We need to remember that Harry will not kill > Voldemort. If he dies, JKR will kill him. Tex, I was not trying to say that it is JKR that will kill the characters. I was saying that in the world JKR has created, we need to think of whether *they* would allow him to be executed. Yes, it is JKR's decision, in a way, whether to kill off anyone. But in a fantasy world, and I think I am entering one of Grey Wolf's pet theories, there are certain guidelines and viewpoints that are constructed. Since JKR is a wonderful author, she obeys these rules and writes the story of the characters. Her own viewpoints are littered into the text, but she is not out to pass judgment on her characters. She is just portraying them in their world. I said that bit earlier, because the discussion was coming to blows over whether execution and torture are morally wrong. I wrote what I did to steer the discussion back into whether execution and torture is wrong *in the Wizard World*. So what happens depends on Harry's, Dumbledore's, and the WW's viewpoints. Hope I made my quote clearer. Melody From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 10 23:13:56 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 23:13:56 -0000 Subject: Harry shouldn't have spared Black (was: spare V'mort) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46442 Ali wrote: > That is a very different scenario to having an unarmed and >defenceless Sirius at his feet. Killing here, would have been murder >- in England we have no degrees of murder, just murder. This is where I have a bit of a problem with the whole thing. I would say Harry was justified to kill Black that night. Let me explain before I get hate mail. To Harry's view, Black betrayed his parents to their death and was coming after him. Betrayal is a nasty affair. So nasty that Dante had the sin as the center of his Inferno. The perpetrators were being devoured in the very mouth of Satan. Not a pretty picture. Black also had just dragged Ron and broken his leg. Also not very good. To Harry, Black could of been desiring to kill Ron too. How would Harry know otherwise? Now in this case where Harry was far away from Black for a while and then is told this man is trying to kill *him*, I think Harry was in a position to be locked and loaded to kill. It was in self-defense really along with the revenge factor. I do agree that revenge killing is pointless and a waste of life. There is no satisfaction or peace in that act. That being said, I will move on. So, from my opinion, Harry did have a type of "authorization" to kill Black that night. For his life. For Ron's life. For Hermione's life. For his parents' death. All were in danger from Harry's perspective. Of course, now we know that perspective was wrong. Kind of puts a kink in my line of logic really. To us now, Harry should not of killed Black. He should of done precisely what he did, conveniently enough. So I am at a passing as I said before. I would of killed Black if I was Harry, but I am glad he didn't. Melody From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 10 23:25:16 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 23:25:16 -0000 Subject: DEW DROP hands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46443 Eileen wondered: >This explains why Dumbledore didn't start a real search for Crouch >in GoF, once he started not showing up for work. After all, the >watch said "Home." (And not "Mortal Peril" because Crouch wasn't in >mortal peril at the time.) After he escaped, it would have said >"Traveling" which would have been when Dumbledore realized that >something was definitely up besides Crouch being ill. Side wonder you made me think of Eileen but related to these wizard clocks. Oh, I like your Crouch idea. And maybe Dumbledore also had a Moody hand as well, and it was deceiving him the whole time because Moody was at Hogwarts just in his trunk. That is why Dumbledore was so thrown off. Anyway, back to wizard clocks. What if all the Weasleys are at home, and thus all the grandfather clock hands are in the Home position, and Voldemort comes knocking at the door. They would all be in Mortal Peril *and* at Home. Hmm, what would the clock do? And what if Molly need to do many chores. Which one would the clock point to? The more pertinent one? ::Sigh:: Too many questions. Melody From msbonsai at mninter.net Mon Nov 11 00:14:13 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 00:14:13 -0000 Subject: Dark Shadows/Harry Potter/Dumbledore/Phoenix Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46444 Ok. I did a search, and came up with no more than 5 messages with "dark shadows" However, careful reading of those 5 messages made it clear that it is not the beloved cult soap opera classic . . . DARK SHADOWS. So, I would say this connection has not been made before. I think a brief history needs to be made before I make my point (for those who are *new* to Dark Shadows anyway . . . The show ran from First Telecast: June 27, 1966 to Last Telecast: April 2, 1971, and JKR was born Born: July 31, 1965. So this means she was not brought up watching this show, but it became such a cult classic, I'm almost sure she would have seen some of the reruns, or perhaps even watched the start up of it again in 1991, with new actors. At any rate, this show has been broadcast and rebroadcast so incredibly many times that I would think she may have heard of it or even seen it, which brings me to my connection point here . . . If you're familiar with the show, then you may know the character Laura. She's the mother of David, and she's a Phoenix. Rises from the dead, but most certainly human in form, flames and all. What's the possibilities that Dumbledore is a Phoenix himself? After all, he's 150 years old now, but he did work with Nicholas Flammel . . . and that work had to have been done *before* Dumbledore was born, or the years would not match. Granted I don't know everything about the storyline of Dark Shadows. I know it crosses time and that there's something to Laura trying to bring her son David into the fire to burn, and that she supposedly *dies* when he does not join her. I don't know enough of the rest of the storyline to draw out more comparisons. And at the same time, I know we have Fawkes, and he's already been *reborn*. But is it possible that Dumbledore is also a *Phoenix*? Julie - who is possibly just way reaching out there. From catlady at wicca.net Mon Nov 11 03:07:36 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 03:07:36 -0000 Subject: Snape/Karkaroff / How Many Students? / Weasley Clock Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46445 Pip!Squeak wrote: << I'm not sure I could have told someone like Karkaroff, who tried to turn Snape in just to get *himself* out of jail: 'Flee, I will make your excuses'.[GoF UK hardback, Ch.23 p.370]. >> I suspect that was a *complicated* situation, in which Karkaroff was one of the people who had been caught because of being turned in by Snape when he turned to the Light Side. Snape would have been beating himself up too hard with his ongoing guilt about betraying his friends to death (Wilkes, Rozier) and Azkaban (Avery, the Lestranges, Karkaroff) to blame one of them for doing the same to him. I suspect that Karkaroff wouldn't have been so forgiving about having been turned in, when it wasn't even done for self-preservation, so I imagine that Karkaroff didn't know that it was Snape who ratted. Snape and Karkaroff had at some time had a close enough relationship that they call each other by first name. I don't know what the relationship was, except that Karkaroff is too old to have been one of Snape's school-boy clique. In GoF, does Snape still like Karkaroff but try to hide or resist it, or does Snape now dislike Karkaroff but try to be polite about it? "hadeurige" asked: << How many students at Hogwarts? >> Polter Flying Ford Anglia Geist replied: << I'm popping up in semi-Mod role to remind everyone that there is a VFAQ in the files section, indicating some of the questions, including this one, that have come up very frequently on list: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/vfaq >> Neil, that server is still down. Fortunately, I found the latest archived post where the Mods posted the VFAQ file and followed the click to Hogwarts FAQ: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hogwarts.html (all my trip straight to the Lexicon had found was: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/hogwarts_howmany.html which says the same as Steve posted on list) I know that there MUST be 1000 students (like JKR said) to maintain the wizarding population AND I know that everything we are shown in the books (except 800 spectators at the Gryffie/Slythie Quidditch final) correlates with ~280 students rather than with 1000 students. One solution would be if 280 are at Hogwarts and the others are at two or three additional schools, but JKR said that Hogwarts is the only wizarding school in Britain. I am very proud of my suggested solution: that are three or four CAMPUSSES in the HOGWARTS SYSTEM, with Hogwarts Castle being the original campus and colloquially called "Hogwarts", while other campuses have names like "Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry at Woodcroft" colloquially called "Woodcroft". Thus, the Hogwarts System would be the only SCHOOL, with Dumbledore as Headmaster and 1000 students, but the book depiction of the Hogwarts Castle campus with ~280 students can still be true. (Each campus would be managed by its own Deputy Headmaster/mistress.) That would also explain how Neville's family could know he was magic but still worry whether he was magic *enough* to get into the main campus at Hogwarts Castle. Jazmyn wrote: << Rowling cannot possibly list EVERY student in the school >> She DID list every student in Harry's year and showed it to the TV camera and you can see screen-captures if you go to HPfGU's photo section http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/lst and click on the album titled Harry Potter and Me. Listie Muridae posted the screen-captures and HOLLYDAZE posted a transcription in post #32380. Besides the list of students, a picture captioned "dursleys" shows Dumbledore, Hagrid, and McGonagall leaving baby Harry on the Dursley doorstep and that McGonagall looks a lot younger than Dame Maggie Smith, and a picture captioned "weasleys" shows Percy in what a Hogwarts uniform looked like before the movie changed it, and the other kids out of uniform. Melody TBAYed (at the Moon?): << "I don't know. I was happily walking when I think the tree attacked me." >> Was it a Whomping Willow? Is there a theory named WHOMPING WILLOW? << "'Home,' 'School,' and 'work' were there, but there was also 'traveling,' 'lost,' 'hospital,' 'prison,' and, in the position where the number twelve would be on a normal clock, 'mortal peril.'" >> << What if all the Weasleys are at home, and thus all the grandfather clock hands are in the Home position, and Voldemort comes knocking at the door. They would all be in Mortal Peril *and* at Home. Hmm, what would the clock do? >> I think in that case, it would jump to Mortal Peril, but there are more cases that I've been wondering about for ... can it really have been years? 1) Bill Weasley presumably has some flat or house where he lives in Egypt. But "going home for Christmas" or "when I lived at home" means the Burrow. Surely the clock points to Home when he is at the Burrow, so where does it point when he's at his own home in Egypt? 2) When Charlie and the other dragon wranglers brought the dragon to Hogwarts for the First Task, that was part of his job. Did the clock point to Work or Travelling? 3) When the Twins are filling orders for Weasley's Wizard Wheeze in their dorm room at Hogwarts, does the clock point to Work or School? 4) One day when I was at work in my usual office building, I went to a meeting on the 15th floor, which has elevators for 1 to 15 and for 15 to 25. I somehow got into the wrong elevator. If I had a hand on the Weasley clock, would it have said Work or Lost? 5) I am ashamed to admit that I once got off a train in the Wrong City and it was the last train of the night and I eventually had to spend a ton of money to take a taxi the rest of the way ... Travelling or Lost? 6) Did the clock point to Travelling for the people who were at the Quidditch World Cup? Canon only lists 8 of the presumably 12 situations. What are the others? I nominate Shopping, Partying, Friend's Home, and Library for the others. Partying rather than Pub so that it could include going to sports events, concerts, restaurants. From msbonsai at mninter.net Mon Nov 11 03:35:11 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 03:35:11 -0000 Subject: JK's writings/photos: Was: Snape/Karkaroff / How Many Students? / Weasley Clock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46446 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > << Rowling cannot possibly list EVERY student in the school >> > > She DID list every student in Harry's year and showed it to the TV > camera and you can see screen-captures if you go to HPfGU's photo > section http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/lst and > click on the album titled Harry Potter and Me. Well we can see a page or two, but not everyone. But I was actually going to ask you something else. I have heard it mentioned that JK refuses to say what the symbols mean. However, just from a few minor glances, the squares vs. the circles. It appears all the circles are girls and the squares are boys. And the right hand column is HGSR. The houses. So I guess that leaves that mysterious middle column . . . any thoughts? and a picture captioned "weasleys" shows Percy in what a > Hogwarts uniform looked like before the movie changed it, and the > other kids out of uniform. Very interesting. I note that picture has a cat . . . is it supposed to be Crookshanks? (I have a bone to pick with Crookshanks . . . if he's supposed to be fashioned after Persians and Himilayans . . . they don't normally stick their bottlebrush tails straight into the air, as it's too heavy with the fur and abnormal for them . . . (can you tell I raise Himmies?)) > Canon only lists 8 of the presumably 12 situations. What are the > others? I nominate Shopping, Partying, Friend's Home, and Library for > the others. Partying rather than Pub so that it could include going > to sports events, concerts, restaurants. I suppose that could very well be. But I'm still all in favor of the hands representing specific people, which would mean the planets would have to be those situations you're talking about. Otherwise the planets would have to be the people wouldn't it? Just my opinions ;o) Julie From hpsmarty at aol.com Mon Nov 11 03:44:31 2002 From: hpsmarty at aol.com (hpsmarty) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 03:44:31 -0000 Subject: HPfGU Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46447 Hello, contest fans. It's time for a contest update, some contest results, AND (tah-dah) a new contest! Yay! Now, you might have noticed that I haven't posted the results of the October contests yet. In fact, you probably noticed that I never posted the results of the September puzzle, either. You probably think I'm a lazy, good-for-nothing slug of a contestmeister, and you're probably right. So sue me. Actually, I still haven't written up a list all the imaginative HP- related terms that people came up with for the September contest, but I will post the results. The September puzzle, if you can remember that far back, was to come up with SCATTERGORIES-type words representing people, places, things, beings and terms starting with the letters in the words BLACK, HAGRID and LUPIN. Contestants received points for unique answers. The winners are: LUPIN -- Catherine, with 24 points. HAGRID -- a tie between Catherine and Brandon, each with 37 points BLACK -- hickengruendler, with 33 points OK, on to the October logic puzzle. I will post a solution, but for right now I will report the list of people who got the logic puzzle correct: Jaye finished it first, so is our October puzzle winner! Yaye Jaye! The following also sent in a correct solution: Greywolf, Maria, Genevieve, Loony Loopy, Kathy Lischke (with an extensive explanation), Moonlight the Ferret Lover, Kangas Boy, Raven, Beccablue42, Deirdre, Sherry, Kim Davison (welcome to HPfGU, Kim!), Vicki, Brian, Jennifer (shufan), and Doreen (fauxpas) Good work, all! --Joywitch From hpsmarty at aol.com Mon Nov 11 03:57:44 2002 From: hpsmarty at aol.com (hpsmarty) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 03:57:44 -0000 Subject: November HPfGU Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46448 I promised you a new contest, and here it is. But first -- I have a complaint. Very, very few people sent in entries to the October creative contest. This is very disappointing. In fact, it is downright discouraging. It does not show the right type of team spirit. It makes me think that you people are uncreative. Are you uncreative? No! Of course not! Apparently, you need me to squeeze the creativity out of you. So, from now on, I will twist your arms. I will send Winky to your house to drink all the butterbeer. I will send Peeves to your office to type rude words on the keyboard and pull your boss's pointy hair. But, most of all I will not let you play with my puzzles without at least an attempt to be creative. That's right...if you want to enter the puzzle contest, you have to also enter the creative contest. C'mon, it's not hard. Just try it. Here's the November creative contest. You have 2 choices: 1. We will be extending the October contest, which put you in charge of Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. The Board of Governors has decided that Hogwarts need a fifth house. What do you think the fifth house should be? Who should it be named after? What characteristics should its students have? How would the Sorting Hat describe it? 2. The Board of Governors has also decided to add some new classes at Hogwarts. Can you name and/or describe a new class that you think should be taught at Hogwarts? OK, start getting creative. Right now. (new puzzle to follow) --Joywitch From hpsmarty at aol.com Mon Nov 11 04:03:28 2002 From: hpsmarty at aol.com (hpsmarty) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 04:03:28 -0000 Subject: HPfGU Contest, once again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46449 Finally! The new puzzle! Don't forget you have to enter the creative contest if you want to enter the puzzle contest. (you can, however, enter ONLY the creative contest if you want.) This month's puzzle is called ADD LETTERS. You have to come up with nine groups of three words each. For each set, three clues are given. The first clue is for the shortest word, which will be 2, 3, or 4 letters long. If you add a letter to that word, you will get the next word. (The new letter can be placed anywhere in the word, as long as you keep the letters in the same order.) Then, you add an additional letter to the new word to get the third one. At least one word in each set will have something to do with Harry Potter (more or less). Here's an example: gorilla; back of the neck; potions master Answers: APE; NAPE; SNAPE Got it? The first clue, gorilla, gives you APE. Add an N to get NAPE (back of the neck), then add an S to get SNAPE (potions master). When you're done with all nine sets, take the 18 letters that you've added to get the second and third words in each set, and rearrange them to fill in the blanks in this sentence: George and _______________ are _________. 1. one that is or does (suffix); flower; busy holiday at Hogwarts 2. one when it starts with a vowel; pale; Harry doesn't always need this 3. loud noise; vehicle; New York or Western Australia county 4. bell noise; highly regarded item; as white as Lockhart's teeth 5. risk; top; Firenze, by choice 6. weak; type of war; He's long-lived 7. censor; enigmatic forest denizen; actor Orson 8. What Nearly-Headless Nick never does say; One of the Ravenclaws; footwear 9. very useful critter; very useful utensil; innard As always, DON'T post your answers to the list. Email them to me at hpsmarty at aol.com (That's hpsmarty AT aol DOT com.) And remember the new requirement ? submit an entry to the creative contest along with your puzzle entry. ?Joywitch M. Curmudgeon From catlady at wicca.net Mon Nov 11 04:15:27 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 04:15:27 -0000 Subject: JK's writings/photos: Was: Snape/Karkaroff / How Many Students? / Weasley Clock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46450 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" wrote: > Well we can see a page or two, but not everyone. But I was > actually going to ask you something else. I have heard it > mentioned that JK refuses to say what the symbols mean. (Snip) > So I guess that leaves that mysterious middle column . . . any > thoughts? Many people on the list have tried to figure out a code in which it would indicate pure-blood, half-blood, or muggle-born. There has also been a suggestion that it shows who will side with Dumbledore and who with Voldemort, but I have not heard any suggestion what each symbol would mean. > > Very interesting. I note that picture has a cat . . . is it > supposed to be Crookshanks? It can't be Crookshanks. First, Percy's badge says P for Prefect, not HB for Head Boy, so it is Book 1 or Book 2, and Crookshanks wasn't there until Book 3. Second, the cat in the picture is black. I don't know WHO it could be ... there's nothing in canon about any of the Weasleys HAVING a cat, altho' in CoS one of the boys says that Ginny loves cats. I could fantasize that it is Millicent Bulstrode's cat (known from the polyjuice chapter to be black), gone visiting. > (I have a bone to pick with Crookshanks . . . if he's supposed to > be fashioned after Persians and Himilayans . . . > they don't normally stick their bottlebrush tails straight into the > air, as it's too heavy with the fur and abnormal for them . . . > (can you tell I raise Himmies?)) I think he's supposed to be a British Shorthair, a "breed" which fills the same social role as American Shorthair (i.e. being a just plain cat, moggy, or alley-cat), but looks quite different. I read in a cat book that the Blitz much reduced the population of cats in London (for all I know, they were eaten by starving people) so after the War it was decided to replace the population by breeding the survivors with Persian cats. Persians because British Shorthairs were already known (according to the book) for their "cobby" build and flat faces, but not why blotch tabby is apparently more common among them than tiger tabby. Surely tiger tabby is the original pattern from before cats were domesticated?! I don't know WHY Brits like their cats to look like heavyweight boxers (or British bulldogs?), with their big fat heavy bones and ugly smashed-in faces (oops, I shouldn't say that to a fancier of Persians and Himalayans!). Does it say something about the English personality? From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 04:40:03 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 04:40:03 -0000 Subject: Another Dursley Question & Muggle/Magic Business In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46451 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "amberhillcrest" wrote: Maureen Amber > There are several instances in which the Dursleys send Harry gifts. ... ... ... I am wondering how the Dursleys got the gifts to Hogarts in the first place. ...edited... > > So, how do they get the gifts to him? > > > -Maureen Amber bboy_mn adds: As someone already pointed out, Hedwig brings Harry's gifts from the Dursley's. I think near the holidays, Hedwig flys to the Durlseys and hangs around pestering them and making a racket, in a sense, intimidating the Dursleys into senting Harry a gifft. So the Dursleys put the first thing they can lay their hand on (tissue, toothpick, pence coin) in an envelop and send Hedwig on her way before she can attract the attention of the neighbors. (By the way, I'm pretty sure Harry had the horrible socks before he went to Hogwarts) So that explains Dursley's gifts to Harry. Someone else brought up the more complex question of, How do all the muggle kids at Hogwarts get their gift? Good question! I guess, since there is speculation that the common muggles who are invited to Hogwarts get a different acceptance letters than the one Harry got, and that this letter has special instructions for things like how to get into Diagon Alley, how to exchange Pound notes for Galleon coins, etc...; it could also tells the muggle parents how to communicate with their kids while the kids are at Hogwarts. It's not unreasonable to think that Hogwards could have a public or private Postal Box somewhere that all muggle correspondance is sent to, then the house-elves or who ever or whatever, periodically pick up the mail and bring it to Hogwarts. I personally believe that there are a lot of muggle interfaces into the Magic world, if for no other reason than a matter of convenience. I think Gringotts has several muggle front companies that it uses to transfer money between the wizard and muggle worlds, and to make muggle world investments. You know those goblins, if they can see a way to make a 'buck'; they'll do it; magic or muggle. Side note: do you think Goblins are sneaky enough to actually use magic to manipulate the muggle stock market, so they can make money? I think there are some wizards who have married muggles and choose to live in the muggle world, and use their businesses to help magic business transfer goods and services between the magic and muggle world. Example: A muggle married wizard could run a fresh food produce business, and sell fruits, vegetables, etc... out the back door into the magic world. A custom cabinet maker could funnel some of his busines to magic cabinet makers to speed production. I think that would be a great way to make money. Have a muggle front business the funnels all the work into the magic world, then returns in faster, better crafted, and with lower labor costs and a higher profit margin. I wonder if there is a magic world law against that???? The point is that I think the are a lot of 'back door' gateways between various aspects of the two worlds. Sorry, I know I strayed a bit, hope you'll forgive me. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 05:09:27 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 05:09:27 -0000 Subject: How many students at Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: <99viis+5hfi@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46452 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meckelburg at f... wrote: > Here is another Question you have probably discussed in length > before, but I just have to know: > > JKR said there were about 1000 students at Hogwarts. > With 7 Years, and 4 Houses each Year, that means Harry must have > about 35 Classmates in Griffindor.! > > Why are there only 5 Boys in the Boys-class-dormitory? We only know > of about 3 or 4 girls, so I miss abouit 25 children. Can you help me > find them?;) > > Mecki bboy_mn heading for hot water again: Sadly, I think you have asked the unanswerable question. This subject has been discussed in great detail many times... many... many... many times. Always great fun, alway produces heated arguments, and great new theories and explanation, but the issue is never resolved. My opinion and only my opinion (as all those who disagree will quickly point out) Rowling said there were 1,000 students. Which doesn't quite add up, so I have to ask. Did she mean ALWAYS 1,000 student? Enrollment PEAKED at a 1,000 students? Currently 1,000? Absolutely 1,000? Approximately 1,000? Vaguely of that general area? For reference, undergraduate enrollment at the Univ. of MN fluctuated 30% in the last 20 years. Answer: We don't know exactly what she meant. My belief: Less than 1,000, but more than 500. Can I prove that? NO! But you imagine your Hogwarts the way you want it and this is how I will imagine mine. As a side note: They use about 600 extras to film the Dining Hall scenes in the movie. (600/4=150/house; 150/7=21/yr) The numbers probably don't add up because they were never meant to add up. As long as Rowling can create an illusion of the size of the school population and the wizard world population that is believable as you read the story, then she has done her job and done it well. Very few books have been as thoroughly deconstructed as Rowlings books have, and very few books could stand up as well to that level of analysis as JKR's books have. So, personally I believe there are more students than we see, but at the same time, I don't think CURRENT enrollment is a full 1,000 students. Without a doubt, I believe that enrollment is significantly more than 300, regardless of what the numbers say. So all I can give you are beliefs, and very very few facts. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From delineate at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 02:46:18 2002 From: delineate at hotmail.com (kwilson1003) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 02:46:18 -0000 Subject: A new Hogwarts Ghost? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46454 If JK Rowling kills off a character in Book 5, will they come back as a ghost? >From memory, she said in an interview that there will be more information about ghosts in Book 5. And if she's just gone and killed a main character, maybe they'll become a ghost? While I'd love to see a Snape ghost haunting the corridors of Hogwarts, I've long been concerned that Remus Lupin would be bumped off.. Since Remus is a favourite character of mine, I wouldn't mind so much if he could hang around as a ghost for a bit. From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Mon Nov 11 06:26:52 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 06:26:52 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Immortality Goal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46455 I'd first of all like to say that what Phyllis said really got me thinking, and not just because Voldemort's search for immortality is a favorite topic of mine. His inability to admit that he is fallible could be his undoing. Pride goes before the fall, after all. Actually, I'm glad that you brought this up, as I'd been meaning to bring back some discussion about Voldemort, Dumbledore, and the search for immortality. It was actually the first subject I ever brought up on this list, when I was a brand new newbie(as opposed to a not even 2 month newbie like I am now). I'll give a short quote from my original post. * So now let me go back to what I began with. Life, and the search for it. Voldemort admits that it is his goal to conquer death. Would it not make sense then that his arch-enemy would be the person who has succeeded in doing this? Albus Dumbledore, along with his defeat of the dark wizard Grindlewald, is also famous for something else:his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicolas Flamel. Nicolas Flamel is holds the only KNOWN(I'll get into that in a later post...) Philosopher's stone. The one thing that can truly conquer death. Unless of course, it's the tears of a Pheonix. * If anyone is interested the full thought is message #44205. Aside from what is discussed in that message, I have to say that I believe the battle between life and death plays a major role in the themes of the series. The first book, which sets up the entire series, is especially heavy in this theme. The first chapter introduces us to 'The Boy Who Lived.' As much as I hate the over- emphasis of that phrase in fandom, it really does give us a clear picture of who Harry is. He too is someone who has escaped death at a moment when there would seem to be no escape. This is only the beginning of a book that is filled with the ideas of ghosts, innocent lives being destroyed(the unicorns), and the search for life. I wouldn't be surprised if the Philosopher's stone and Nicholas Flamel turned out to play a big role in the upcoming books. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the quest for life comes up in the very next book. Pheonix's are symbols of immortality. Already the three key figures when it comes to wizarding power, Dumbledore, Voldemort, and Harry, all have a connection with one Pheonix. I can't see JKR allowing something like that to just sit and stagnate. Now that Voldemort has once again achieved mortal life, I can't see him as being content to stay with that for long, especially after his close call in the graveyard. Many people have been discussing Harry Potter and the prophecies in the Book of Revelation. Please excuse me if this has been stated already, since I am terribly far behind in catching up on my posts, but if Voldemort is to be compared to the anti-christ, then one thing should be mentioned. Within the prophecies, it is said that the Anti-Christ would die and be resurrected as Satan Incarnate three and a half years into the Tribulation. The grave yard scene is very near to the three and a half year mark from when the books began. Continuing with the Prophecy, the next three and a half years are a time when the Anti- Christ only increases his powers to levels it has never been at, and achieves what seems to be immortality. Another thing that is scary is that the government and most of society are said to fully support him. So what does this have to do with the series? Voldemort's quest for immortality is hardly over. I foresee an unknown Philosopher's stone (all we're ever told is that Nicholas Flamel made the only known stone), the powers of the Pheonix bird(Could the Order of the Pheonix include all the people who have ever owned Fawkes?), and the search to conquer death. Ultimately, as Phyllis said, it is the fear and fascination of death that brings together all of mankind. The Harry Potter series is already being called a classic. There is no greater theme in classic literature than the quest to conquer death. ~Risti From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 07:27:30 2002 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 07:27:30 -0000 Subject: How many students at Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46456 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: > As a side note: They use about 600 extras to film the Dining Hall > scenes in the movie. Do you know this for a fact? As I recall, our best guess back when the first film came out was that there were between 300 and 350 kids in the Great Hall scene. Has someone found an official number from the call sheets or something? Not that the film is canon anyway, of course. But it does have the right look. Even with that number, I wonder how the kids at the back can possibly hear Dumbledore's speech. Steve From Audra1976 at aol.com Mon Nov 11 07:55:50 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 02:55:50 EST Subject: How many students at Hogwarts? (and Notebook Symbols) Message-ID: <1a5.bbf0d89.2b00bc86@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46457 >From the pictures of JKR's notebook, there appear to be around 50 students in Harry Potter's year. If there are about 50 students in each year, then that makes about 350 students total. If the notebook is an indicator, I'd even be willing to say there could be a total of 500 students at Hogwarts. Unless the other classes are much larger than Harry's, the 1000 students quote does not make much sense. Either she was just caught off guard and not thinking, or she means there are more students in Harry's class that are not listed by name in the notebook, and the notebook contains only those that will be mentioned by name at some point. Now for the symbols in the middle column of the notebook: I firmly believe they are referring to the students' parentage. The "N" means that neither parent is of wizarding blood, the plain star means that one parent is of wizarding blood, and the circled star means that both parents are of wizarding blood. This seems to fit as we know Hermione Granger and Justin Finch-Fletchley are muggle-born, and they each have an "N." We know Seamus Finnegan's father is a muggle and mother is a witch, and he has a plain star. And since Vincent Crabbe and Gregory Goyle's parents are DE's, it is a sound assumption that they are purebloods, and they each have a circled star. If this interpretation is correct, the notebook shows (at least the first column does) that there are a greater number of students who are products of "mixed" muggle-wizard marriages than there are purebloods. This seems to imply that there is an increase in wizards marrying outside their own kind. --Audra From illyana at mindspring.com Mon Nov 11 07:50:56 2002 From: illyana at mindspring.com (illyana delorean) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 00:50:56 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggle/Magic Business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46458 >bboy_mn wrote: > >I think there are some wizards who have married muggles and choose to >live in the muggle world, and use their businesses to help magic >business transfer goods and services between the magic and muggle >world. Example: A muggle married wizard could run a fresh food produce >business, and sell fruits, vegetables, etc... out the back door into >the magic world. A custom cabinet maker could funnel some of his >busines to magic cabinet makers to speed production. I think that >would be a great way to make money. Have a muggle front business the >funnels all the work into the magic world, then returns in faster, >better crafted, and with lower labor costs and a higher profit margin. > >I wonder if there is a magic world law against that???? illyana adds: I am assuming that there is a MOM law against wizards using magic to manufacture goods that will be sold to muggles. Part of Mr. Weasley's job is to ensure that muggles do not come across bewitched items (and to fix the situation if they do), so that leads me to believe that there would be a law against this. Although I am sure that there would be honest wizards who would only use magic to manufacture the items (and not to bewitch them), you can never be too careful! illyana p.s. This is my first post, so I will say "hi" to everyone! -- S1.3 MIL+++ RWG++# FRI++ CBG++ P&S-- f++/+++ n- $++++ 9F13, 1F22, 2F13, 3F02, 3F05, 4F01, 4F08, 4F11, 4F19 F1980 HPGCv1 a22 e+ x+* Rm Ri HP4 S+++ Mo++ HG+/VK++ HaP+/SS+++& FGW++ DM++& VC-- GG-- CD+ VK++ SS+++& PT--- AF-- MM++ RL++ O+m FAo F- Sl FHo SfD "What's the point in having a Honda if you can't show it off?" - Superintendent Chalmers visit my livejournal! http://www.livejournal.com/users/illyanadmc From amberhillcrest at yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 07:43:44 2002 From: amberhillcrest at yahoo.com (amberhillcrest) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 07:43:44 -0000 Subject: The four founders/Prequels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46459 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "skyw1ngs" wrote: > I think there is little doubt that every little detail of the > incredible world of Harry Potter was created years and years ago. > What I am really interested in (outside the Ron/Hermione dynamic > *g*) is the history of Hogwarts. In particular, the story of the > four founders. > > I'll bet that JK has written a rich background with these four and > I'm hoping that once she's finished writing the seventh, she'll > write a tremendous eighth, a prequel to the Harry Potter books. If > all seven movies do indeed get made, I'd love to see an eighth too. > > skywings. I would also like a prequel, but I would be more interested in Tom Riddle's/Hagrid's/Mrytle's days at Hogwarts or The Mauraders and Lily, even though their story would be bittersweet since we know that they die right before SS starts. The more I think about it, the more I like your idea of the huge eighth book- maybe instead of being a fluid story, it could be shorter stories about Hogwarts through the ages. There could be stories about the Founders, Riddle, James and Lily, etc. I for one would like to actually hear the story about the time that Snape almost got killed. And I'd like to know more about Hagrid at Hogwarts. We get snippets of stories, but it would be nice to have longer stories (but not THAT long). -Maureen Amber From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 08:39:34 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 08:39:34 -0000 Subject: How many students at Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46460 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "hp_lexicon" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: > > > As a side note: They use about 600 extras to film the Dining Hall > > scenes in the movie. > > Do you know this for a fact? As I recall, our best guess back when > the first film came out was that there were between 300 and 350 kids > in the Great Hall scene. Has someone found an official number from > the call sheets or something? > > Not that the film is canon anyway, of course. But it does have the > right look. Even with that number, I wonder how the kids at the back > can possibly hear Dumbledore's speech. > > Steve bboy_mn: It was mentioned in several interivews with Daniel/Rupert regarding the scenes with large crowds. Daniel likes do scenes with lots of people. Now he may have been generalizing, but based on another interview when they get the daily schedule, it list how may people are going to be there (list the people required for that days shooting). He specifically mentioned something like 300 when refering to the first movie. I was just noting the movie to give some perspective to the discussion. bboy_mn From pen at pensnest.co.uk Mon Nov 11 09:08:46 2002 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 09:08:46 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dark Shadows/Harry Potter/Dumbledore/Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2F1DBD17-F555-11D6-98D3-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 46461 On Monday, Nov 11, 2002, at 00:14 Europe/London, jastrangfeld wrote: > Ok. I did a search, and came up with no more than 5 messages > with "dark shadows" However, careful reading of those 5 messages > made it clear that it is not the beloved cult soap opera > classic . . . DARK SHADOWS. > > So, I would say this connection has not been made before. I think a > brief history needs to be made before I make my point (for those who > are *new* to Dark Shadows anyway . . . > > The show ran from First Telecast: June 27, 1966 to Last Telecast: > April 2, 1971, and JKR was born Born: July 31, 1965. So this means > she was not brought up watching this show, but it became such a cult > classic, I'm almost sure she would have seen some of the reruns, or > perhaps even watched the start up of it again in 1991, with new > actors. At any rate, this show has been broadcast and rebroadcast so > incredibly many times that I would think she may have heard of it or > even seen it, which brings me to my connection point here . . . > I am not now and have never been a devoted telly-watcher, and I don't know whether any of those reruns ever happened in the UK. But I can say that until I read your post I had never heard of the show. Pen From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 09:18:35 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 09:18:35 -0000 Subject: Muggle/Magic Business In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46462 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., illyana delorean wrote: > >bboy_mn wrote: > > > >I think there are some wizards who have married muggles and choose > >to live in the muggle world, and use their businesses to help magic > >business transfer goods and services between the magic and muggle > >world. ... edited... Have a muggle front business the funnels all > >the work into the magic world, then returns in faster, better > >crafted, and with lower labor costs and a higher profit margin. > > > >I wonder if there is a magic world law against that???? > > illyana adds: > > I am assuming that there is a MOM law against wizards using magic to > manufacture goods that will be sold to muggles. Part of Mr. Weasley's > job is to ensure that muggles do not come across bewitched items (and > to fix the situation if they do), so that leads me to believe that > there would be a law against this. Although I am sure that there > would be honest wizards who would only use magic to manufacture the > items (and not to bewitch them), you can never be too careful! > > illyana bboy_mn replies: Well, you answered your own question. There is a big difference between an object that was made by using magic, and an object that contains magic after it's been made. A cabinet maker may use magical methods to cut and carve the wood for a cabinet, yet when finally done has nothing more than a ordinary cabinet, there should be no reason to hide it from the muggles. A cabinet is a cabinet whether it was cut by hand, by machine, or by magic. The final products would be indistiguishable from each other. Of course, in a situation like this absolutely no product could go out the door to muggles if it was enchanted or magical in any way. I have to admit that I have thoroughly analyzed and more importantly thoroughly rationalized my belief that this is OK, because I'm writing a story in which Harry and Ron have house-elves manufacture ginger ale/beer which is sold in the magic and muggle markets. Independant of my fiction, I still think, mostly on a very small unobtrusive scale, that there are some businesses that act as an interface between the wizard and muggle worlds. Probably a better example is Gringotts bank. They have some need to exchange muggle currencies. Since there is no way to go to the muggle bank or the international currency exchange and trade Pound for Galleon, I suspect they have some muggle front business that allows them to exchange Pound notes for something of value. Perhaps only investments or something like that, but as money grubbing and hardnosed as Goblins are, they are going to do everything within and probably slightly beyond the boundaries of the law to make money. Although, I will admit the last example I gave of exploiting magic labor to made excessive muggle profits might be a stretch of what the law would allow. I'm sure Arthur would see that as taking unfair advantage of the poor defenseless muggles. But I can see it happening on a smaller scale. Can't prove a word of this, but that what I think is happening. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 11 12:50:42 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:50:42 -0000 Subject: Wizarding education matters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46464 Pickle Jimmy writes: > And here's my question - Where do magical kids learn the 3 > R's (Reading, wRiting and aRithmetic)? Another question that has been debated many, many times. But since there are very few `official' answers, it's great fun to debate. http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm is both the 1000 students reference AND the reference to wizarding children not having to attend muggle primary schools. The general assumption is that wizarding children are either home schooled in the basics (no wonder Molly Weasley is a stay-at-home mum!) or are taught in small groups by wizarding teachers. There is evidence that some of the wizarding children knew each other before Hogwarts: Draco, Crabb and Goyle obviously do, and in PS/SS Ch.9, Pansy Parkinson tells Parvati Patil "Never thought *you'd* like fat little cry babies, Parvati." [p. 110 UK paperback], which suggests they also knew each other pre-Hogwarts. There's also evidence that wizarding children have either had, or know of, school-style punishments. Draco is surprised that detention doesn't involve `writing lines or something' [PS/SS, Ch. 15, p. 182 UK paperback]. Pickle Jimmy writes: > At 11 these kids focus on classes that deal only with magic, do > they learn all the mathematics, history, geography, sciences, > languages, etc that they will ever learn by this time? They obviously don't learn languages, as there are several jokes in GoF about the British Wizards general inability to speak any other language than their own (except for Crouch Sr. and Dumbledore). History of Magic they learn with the ghostly Professor Binns. Geography may be subsumed in other lessons ? for example, it might be part of history, learning places and cultures as the British WW comes across them. Sciences they learn ? Potions is obviously related to chemistry, Herbology to botany, Care of Magical Creatures is practical animal husbandry, and DADA seems to cover other areas of zoology. Muggle physics probably has no relation whatsoever to the Wizarding understanding of the world, but the `Muggle Studies' textbook in PoA appears to include some physics: `Explain why Muggles need Electricity' is, I think, one of Hermione's essay titles. Mathematics is probably not regarded as a separate subject in the WW? much of muggle maths is quite closely related to muggle physics, and Wizards don't seem to use statistics much. Weights, measurements and timings would be covered in Potions. Calculation of angles, orbits, observation measurements, calendars, would be part of Astronomy. Generally, maths needed for a subject is almost certainly covered in that subject, *not* in separate, unmentioned classes. It's unknown where Squibs get their education. I've suggested on other occasions that the terror of Neville's family that he might not get into Hogwarts might be caused by the fact that there is NO provision other than Hogwarts, and JKR means it quite literally when she says there is no other wizarding school in the UK. The second cousin of Mrs Weasley's who became an accountant [PS/SS Ch. 6, p. 75 UK paperback] would suggest that some might go to muggle schools, if it were not for the huge number of `safety net' provisions in the UK for people who leave school with no qualifications. It would be entirely possible for a squib to get a muggle education *after* they reached 18. It's certainly possible to qualify as an accountant with no muggle secondary school qualifications/record of graduation ? one of our Prime Ministers did it. Stan Shunpike comes vaguely into education, as Harry thinks he's about 19, but never saw him at Hogwarts [PoA Ch. 3]. Many listies seem to think this means he never went to Hogwarts. I think the confusion is caused by the fact that in many education systems, if you leave school at 16, you have no qualifications. This is not the case in the UK, or in the WW. Many people in the UK leave school at 16 [usually to go on to vocational training], and it's quite likely that the whole reasoning behind OWLs is that this pattern is repeated in Wizarding Britain. If you're not academic by nature, you leave school at 16 with (hopefully) some OWL's to your name, and then look for a job or an appropriate vocational course ? which will often specify that the 16 year old school leaver must have reached, say, Grade C in Charms OWL, (and the job will often give time off for vocational study). If Stan left Hogwarts at 16, it's very likely that Harry doesn't know him because their years at Hogwarts simply didn't coincide. Pip!Squeak From msbonsai at mninter.net Mon Nov 11 15:05:06 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:05:06 -0000 Subject: A new Hogwarts Ghost? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46465 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "kwilson1003" wrote: > If JK Rowling kills off a character in Book 5, will they come back as > a ghost? > > From memory, she said in an interview that there will be more > information about ghosts in Book 5. And if she's just gone and > killed a main character, maybe they'll become a ghost? > She also said we'd see Cedric again in Book 5. Perhaps he's the ghost? Julie From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 11 15:15:12 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:15:12 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Death_in_the_Wizarding_World_AND_Harry_sparing_V=92Mort?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46466 Melody writes: > Death *is* thought to be better than that kiss. That fact seem to > be known in the WW. So if they did *just* kill Voldemort, it is > not as bad as if they let the dementor suck out him soul...if in > fact he has one. > > Wait, I'm sorry. I'm wrong. He has a soul; he just has no heart. > > So I am one to go out on a limb and say that the WW would allow > Voldemort to be subject to the death penalty. In a way it is more > humane than the possibilities. It is a fast remedy to a > tremendous* problem. I fancy the WW has a slightly different attitude to death than the Muggle World. `Life after Death' is a matter of faith in the Muggle World. In the Wizarding World, people go to school with ghosts. In fact, they're *taught* by ghosts. There is no question in their minds that existence continues after death ? the scary thing is that they have no idea *what* that existence is like (`the next great adventure'). [Except, of course, for those few unhappy souls who choose to reject the adventure, and come back as ghosts]. Death better than the Kiss? Well, if survival of the soul is a given in the WW, then having your soul eaten *would* be worse. It might well be the WW's equivalent of true end of consciousness, `out, out brief candle', `rage against the dying of the light' death. So,yeah, they might be relatively unconcerned about the death penalty in the WW ? EXCEPT that there is no mention of convicted DE's in the VW1 being executed. Black, who was supposed to have killed 12 muggles and 1 wizard got sent to Azkaban (without trial). In GoF Ch.27 he lists the fates of a few DE's. They got sent for life to Azkaban, and some of them decided they'd rather fight to the death than risk the Dementors (or the Aurors decided to apply a little unofficial death penalty all by themselves). No one is described as being executed. The attitude of the books towards killing someone because of what they've done is absolutely clear. It's wrong. Harry spares Pettigrew. Dumbledore only knocks Crouch Jr out. Snape gives Karkaroff a chance to stay and fight or run for it. Lockhart, who was quite prepared to leave Ginny to die, gets his own memory modified when Ron's wand backfires ? but he doesn't get killed. Quirrel is left to die ? by the evil Voldemort. Killing someone in self defense might be a bitter necessity; but killing someone when you don't have to is wrong. The WW might well allow Voldemort to be subject to the death penalty, for the same reason they allowed the escaped Sirius Black to be subject to soul-sucking by the Demetors ? fear and panic. Sirius Black showed he could escape from escape-proof Azkaban; Voldemort would probably be equally difficult to imprison. But again, the attitude of PoA proved to be that the Ministry was *wrong* in allowing Black to be executed on capture ? Black was innocent. It didn't even *occur* to Harry to try Avada Kedavra in the Graveyard duel (Chapter 34 of GoF) ? not even a momentary thought that he wasn't powerful enough to try it. The whole thrust of the books to date would be against Harry choosing to kill Voldemort, or turning him over to the MoM to be executed. So, I would guess that if Voldemort does die at the end of the books, it will *not* be because Harry deliberately kills him. He may well end up like Lockhart, though. Impaled upon his own sword. Pip!Squeak From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Nov 11 15:59:08 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:59:08 -0000 Subject: FILK: Rubeus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46467 Rubeus A filk by Pippin To the tune of Julia, by the Beatles Half of what they say is meaningless But they say she's bound to grease you, Rubeus Rubeus, Rubeus, something wild mauls him Will some things with fangs and stings kill Rubeus? Rubeus, beetle eyes, giant smile, touch me Will Olympe be bereaved of Rubeus? I sense his chances growing dimmering Glimmering, one by one Rubeus, hippogryphs, flaming skrewts gnaw him But it's just another day for Rubeus When I eat his treacle tart I can't pry my jaws apart, Rubeus Rubeus, Rubeus thoughts of doom touch me Must we say a sad farewell to Rubeus From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Mon Nov 11 18:34:46 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:34:46 -0000 Subject: A new Hogwarts Ghost? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46468 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "kwilson1003" wrote: > > If JK Rowling kills off a character in Book 5, will they come back > as > > a ghost? > > > > From memory, she said in an interview that there will be more > > information about ghosts in Book 5. And if she's just gone and > > killed a main character, maybe they'll become a ghost? > > > > > She also said we'd see Cedric again in Book 5. Perhaps he's the > ghost? Are you sure about that one? I can't remember ever seeing that in any of her interviews, and to tell the truth, Cedric seems to me the least likely of any her victims to come back as a ghost. She said that ghosts aren't very happy people, and well, Cedric's presented as the sort of person who would be at peace with death. On the other hand, I've been plugging for months for Barty Crouch Sr. to return as a ghost. No-one in canon dies a death quite as unhappy as he does, and it could tie in quite nicely to our dodgy auror subplot. Unless of course the dodgy auror subplot exists only in our feverish brains. Eileen, who suggests that a new acronym is needed to explain her posting patterns getting across the general idea that every theory is better if you include aurors, the Crouch family, and the Longbottoms, and is waiting patiently for Elkins' mega-Crouch post From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Mon Nov 11 19:34:28 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:34:28 +0000 Subject: Dark Shadows In-Reply-To: <2F1DBD17-F555-11D6-98D3-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021111192557.00965cc0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 46469 At 09:08 11/11/02 +0000, Pen Robinson wrote: >On Monday, Nov 11, 2002, at 00:14 Europe/London, jastrangfeld wrote: > > > DARK SHADOWS. > >I am not now and have never been a devoted telly-watcher, and I don't >know whether any of those reruns ever happened in the UK. But I can >say that until I read your post I had never heard of the show. I am (well, used to be) a huge telly watcher (especially of crap sci-fi) :-) but as a UK resident a few years older than JKR, I had never heard of the show until it was shown on some cable channel or other in the mid 90s (and became a fan for a while, until it got very, very silly). JKR doesn't strike me as a telly fan, and as the period in question was her financially "lean" time, I find it doubly unlikely that she had access to late-night cable TV (as I recall, it was shown at some ridiculous hour like 2.30am). The chances that JKR knows anything about the show are extremely slim. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who is not very happy to have over 400 HPFGU messages to read from the last week... :-) From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Mon Nov 11 19:51:58 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:51:58 +0000 Subject: How many students at Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021111194521.00a24e20@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 46470 At 07:27 11/11/02 +0000, hp_lexicon wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: > > > As a side note: They use about 600 extras to film the Dining Hall > > scenes in the movie. > >Do you know this for a fact? As I recall, our best guess back when >the first film came out was that there were between 300 and 350 kids >in the Great Hall scene. Has someone found an official number from >the call sheets or something? > >Not that the film is canon anyway, of course. But it does have the >right look. Even with that number, I wonder how the kids at the back >can possibly hear Dumbledore's speech. As it happens, following a discussion along those lines earlier in the year, I did a head count of the kids at the tables during the end of year feast (the still function on DVD players is a godsend). :-) There were 23-25 at each side of each table (it wasn't possible to be definite as towards the back, the heads became indistinct). 25 pupils x 2 sides x 4 tables = 200. Yes, I know it looks like a lot more, but I invite anyone with the requisite patience to repeat the exercise. :-) Columbus and others are on record as talking about "300 people" but I'm not sure if they were just referring to extras or everyone on the set. -- GulPlum AKA, Richard, who quite coincidentally, has just finished watching PS. :-) From ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 20:02:49 2002 From: ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com (ameliagoldfeesh) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:02:49 -0000 Subject: How many students at Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46471 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "hp_lexicon" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: > > > > > As a side note: They use about 600 extras to film the Dining Hall > > > scenes in the movie. > > > > Do you know this for a fact? As I recall, our best guess back when > > the first film came out was that there were between 300 and 350 > kids > > in the Great Hall scene. Has someone found an official number from > > the call sheets or something? > > > > Not that the film is canon anyway, of course. By coincidence, a few nights back I was looking at the Nov. Architectural Digest magazine (it mentioned HP on the cover) at work. After seeing this thread reappear I went back and took notes on the article since it was an interview with the set designer of both of the MTMNBN, Stuart Craig. Following are some, hopefully, pertinent bits from the article. ---- "Rowling was particularly helpful with matters of quantification: 'We talked about the size of the school. She reckoned that there were 100 students each year at Hogwarts; following the English educational system, which, starting from age 11, comprises seven years, this would bring us to 700 students. Our Great Hall ended up seating 400, which seemed quite enough.'" "Rowling also drew up a map of the world, the school, the railroad station, the Forbidden Forest, the lake. She ratted off dozens of place and product names ("she has a fantastic inventory of names," Craig observes, "it's really amazing"), but the she stepped back and let the designer do his job." --- However I don't see how she comes up with that large of a number either. Perhaps she'll explain it in OOP : "Harry gazed around the castle, thinking for the first time his year seemed rather small. He resolved to ask Headmaster Dumbledore about it the next time he saw him, until deciding that Dumbledore's time was too valuable to be wasted in answering trivial questions." Or not.... Another interesting thing to come from the article is about the Slytherin common room. "Other sets Craig made for the Chamber of Secrets include the Slytherin common room, which, Rowling reminded Craig, was under the lake and lit by lights filtering in through the water;..." I can't believed I actually posted on the "number of students at Hogwarts" thread (which I normally skip through)- geez- next I'll be weighing in on Ron as the Seventh Son... ;) A. Goldfeesh who has been enjoying all the Beatle filking- you all are talented. "Rubeus" was great- I could hear John's voice singing it *L* Makes me wish I had the filking talent- I'd like to combine "Grandma's Featherbed" with the Invisiblity Cloak uses..."and a Norbert we took for Hagrid..." From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon Nov 11 20:02:05 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:02:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: Question regarding Tom Riddle Message-ID: <8530097.1037044925901.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46472 I'm bringing this over from the movie list, where it has recently been discussed regarding Tom Riddle in the CoS movie. Now, here's my question. Is Hagrid's comment about "You Know Who" coming from Slytherin really the only "proof" that Riddle was in Slytherin? I seem to have mental references to other links, but can't think of them. Have I been fooling myself all this time based on one little comment from Hagrid? Who has been known to say things that weren't quite the truth anyway. Surely there's other canon supporting that Tom Riddle was in Slytherin? Richelle From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 20:06:54 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:06:54 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How many students at Hogwarts? References: <4.2.0.58.20021111194521.00a24e20@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46473 gulplum: Even with that number, I wonder how the kids at the back >can possibly hear Dumbledore's speech me: In GoF, Bagman uses a spell to amplfy his voice (sonous?), I suspect that the great hall has such a funtion built in. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 19:52:43 2002 From: talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com (Darla) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:52:43 -0000 Subject: Ron or Hermione? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46474 Hey group, Just a point I'd love to hear your opinions on. *If* Ron or Hermione were to be killed in one of the books (and I dearly hope that doesn't happen!), which of the two characters do you feel is most essential to the plot of the books, the action, the chemistry between Harry and which ever one would survive.... etc. Personally, I love Hermione, and I think she'd be most vital to the plot aspect of the books as she is really J.K's window to providing both us and Harry with a lot of much needed information. However, it's really Ron that gives the threesome such chemistry, I think. I mean, in PoA *Ron* and Hermione have heated discussions/arguements, in G of F *Ron* and Harry have problems... I think without Ron things would run quite boringly between the group. (eg in GofF Harry, during his not-talking-to-Ron period, comments about how although Hermione's great, she's not Ron). Also, if Ron were to die, what would happen to Harry's contact with the Weasleys? I LOVE them, lol, plus the books would be no where near as funny if Ron weren't there to show us the muggle world through his purely wizarding-no-experience-of-muggles eyes. What do you think? Which one would be most vital to the survival of the books? Darla. From jodel at aol.com Mon Nov 11 20:47:19 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:47:19 EST Subject: Dememtor's Kiss for V'mort? Message-ID: <68.2882858c.2b017157@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46475 Allow me to interject a consideration of my own into theis debate. Taking into account what appears to be Voldemort's underlying specialty, one which he can still exercise even while disembodied and, in his terms, "less than a ghost", is there anyone here who would TRUST Voldemort to a Dememtor's kiss? I don't know about you, but I'd be keeping tabs on that particular Dementor down through the ages and making damn sure that it never picked up a wand. -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Mon Nov 11 20:47:21 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:47:21 EST Subject: DEW DROP Hands Message-ID: <42.30946327.2b017159@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46476 Melody states: >>Since Flitwick and Trelawney probably do not have an assigned hand, I doubt she would. But I will say, out of those three, I would say McG is the most likely to have a hand dedicated to her.<< Who says Flitwick & Trelawney don't have assigned hands? Does Dumbledore only use this watch for special events, or does he carry it every day? If it's an everyday watch it would make a lot more sense for the hands to represent Hogwarts staff. Which Hagrid is. He was tracking Hagrid, not Harry. After all, wouldn't the Headmaster need to be able to find any member of the staff at any time regardless of whatever ememrgencies are likely to blow up in a school of magic? -JOdel From speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 20:54:01 2002 From: speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com (r f) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:54:01 +0000 Subject: TBAY: Filch's Double-Cross Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46477 "Melody! Hey, Melody!" Melody pulled her pillow over her head, but the shouting continued. Finally, she sat up and threw open her window. On the lawn below, Frankie danced with glee and held up a waterlogged wad of black cloth. "Melody! Check it out!" shouted Frankie, shaking out the cloth to reveal a bedraggled but beautifully cut tail-coat. Gold cufflinks in the shape of crosses with double bars were pinned in the sleeves. "A tanker must have lost a shipment of reversible tuxedos in the rough weather last night! This one looks like it will fit you after you have it cleaned!" "You woke me up to tell me you fished an experimental dinner jacket out of the ocean," grumbled Melody. A thought struck her. "Frankie, you weren't in water during the storm, were you?" Frankie winked. "Depends on which storm you mean," she said. "You don't have a hangover from spending an evening at George's with the heavy-hitters of Theory Bay, do you? No? We can fix that! Let's throw a soiree in the RATS room. I had no idea so many people have similar opinions about Dudley! You could even wear your new jacket!" "I like my orange juice," said Melody firmly. She held the curtains aside as the tail-coat floated gently up through her window. It was a nice jacket under the salt and bits of seaweed, but if it wasn't tended to soon, it would mold. "Anyway, I agree with you about Filtch," Frankie hollered from the lawn. "His bark is much worse than his bite, and he must care deeply about Hogwarts and his role in the WW to keep that huge castle so darn clean." After shouting a hasty thanks, Melody plucked the tail-coat out of the air. A string of initials on the discreet designer's label caught her eye. "F.R.I.E.N.D.S.G.O.I.N.G.N.U.T.S." she read out loud. "Hmm... I get it! Filtch Rightly Incensed at Evil Nasty Dirt in School Gets Obstinate Insists Non-Magicals Gain New Untold Talents & Spells." Holding her new jacket at arms-length, Melody trotted downstairs in search of Sneaky, who would know exactly how to clean it. Frankie with help on the acronym from Captain Meg _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Nov 11 20:55:37 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:55:37 -0000 Subject: Question regarding Tom Riddle In-Reply-To: <8530097.1037044925901.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46478 Richelle.. wrote: > Is Hagrid's comment about "You Know Who" coming from >Slytherin really the only "proof" that Riddle was in Slytherin? Surely there's other canon supporting that Tom > Riddle was in Slytherin? There's Ron and Harry's conversation in SS/PS ch. 6: ***** [Ron said] "I don't suppose Ravenclaw *would* be too bad, but imagine if they put me in Slytherin." "That's the house Vol-, I mean, You-Know-Who was in?" "Yeah," said Ron. ****** Of course we don't know the source of Ron's knowledge, but it does seem that everyone, not just Hagrid, knows Voldemort was in Slytherin. Pippin From msbonsai at mninter.net Mon Nov 11 21:26:32 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:26:32 -0000 Subject: Cats, Cedric & the maze, & Re: A new Hogwarts Ghost? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46479 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "lucky_kari" wrote: > > She also said we'd see Cedric again in Book 5. Perhaps he's the > > ghost? > > Are you sure about that one? I can't remember ever seeing that in > any of her interviews, > Eileen, Well now I can't find the interview. But in searching, I did come across some other odd things. For instance, JK HATES cats. Yet she says there is something to them all (Mrs. Figg, Crookshanks, Prof. McGonagal.) http://www.mugglenet.com/bbcchat1.shtml What or who would you send into Room 101? Cats - I don't like them, and certain journalists.. http://www.mugglenet.com/scholchat2.shtml Is there something more to the cats appearing in the books than first meets the eye? (i.e. Mrs. Figg's cats, Crookshanks, Prof. McGonagall as a cat, etc.) Ooooo, another good question. Let's see what I can tell you without giving anything away....erm....no, can't do it, sorry. And the other thing I was just thinking about, if Crouch!Moody really was circling the outside of the maze making sure Harry reached the cup, how was Cedric able to almost touch it before he turned back to help Harry? We read the scene as if Cedric is doing something good. But was he really under the Imperious Curse? If the spider is damaging Harry there, and hindering him from reaching the cup, why doesn't Crouch!Moody do something to get it out of the way? Just some thoughts :o) Julie From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Mon Nov 11 21:34:20 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:34:20 -0000 Subject: Cats, Cedric & the maze, & Re: A new Hogwarts Ghost? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46480 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" wrote: > And the other thing I was just thinking about, if Crouch!Moody really > was circling the outside of the maze making sure Harry reached the > cup, how was Cedric able to almost touch it before he turned back to > help Harry? We read the scene as if Cedric is doing something good. > But was he really under the Imperious Curse? If the spider is > damaging Harry there, and hindering him from reaching the cup, why > doesn't Crouch!Moody do something to get it out of the way? IIRC, Crouch mentions that his eye could only see through the outermost hedges. He couldn't see what Cedric and Harry were up to at that point. Eileen, who wants to be a L.O.O.N.E.E. like Cindy one day and points out to the L.O.O.N. guardians that she knows important facts like the colour of TBAY!Avery's eyes and which listies George flirts most with From anakinbester at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 21:43:16 2002 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:43:16 -0000 Subject: Question regarding Tom Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46481 > Richelle.. wrote: > Surely there's other canon supporting that Tom > > Riddle was in Slytherin? Pipin Responded: > There's Ron and Harry's conversation in SS/PS ch. 6: > ***** > [Ron said] "I don't suppose Ravenclaw *would* be too bad, but > imagine if they put me in Slytherin." > > "That's the house Vol-, I mean, You-Know-Who was in?" > > "Yeah," said Ron. > ****** > Of course we don't know the source of Ron's knowledge, but it > does seem that everyone, not just Hagrid, knows Voldemort was > in Slytherin. Actually, I question Ron's sources. Not that I doubt Riddle was a Slytherin however, in CoS, Dumbeldore says that no many people knew that Tom Riddle and Lord Voldemort where the same person. I guess Tom didn't seem the sort. I can certianly understand no connecting a handsome, intelligent head boy with that monstrosity. Anyway, judging from the Weasley's reaction to that new, they didn't know Tom was Voldemort. In fact, the only person, other than Dumbeldore pre-CoS that seems to have known is Lucius. (I'm sure there are others, but he's the only one Canon supports even a little bit, well maybe Dobby too) Therefore, if noone knew who Voldemort was, how can they know what house he was in? And if everyone knew for sure what house he was in, how is it not known who he was? My guess is that it's simply a Slytherin bias which lead to the assumption, and then, unsupported accepted fact, that Voldemort had to be a Slytherin. Which is horridly unfair to the Slyths. even if it did turn out to be true. -Ani From Audra1976 at aol.com Mon Nov 11 21:47:24 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:47:24 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question regarding Tom Riddle Message-ID: <1ad.bc82825.2b017f6c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46482 In a message dated 11/11/02 3:55:50 PM, foxmoth at qnet.com writes: << There's Ron and Harry's conversation in SS/PS ch. 6: ***** [Ron said] "I don't suppose Ravenclaw *would* be too bad, but imagine if they put me in Slytherin." "That's the house Vol-, I mean, You-Know-Who was in?" "Yeah," said Ron. >> Me: And also the comment that there was never a wizard that went bad that didn't come from Slytherin. Audra From amberhillcrest at yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 21:07:55 2002 From: amberhillcrest at yahoo.com (amberhillcrest) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:07:55 -0000 Subject: Question regarding Tom Riddle/what house was Hagrid in? In-Reply-To: <8530097.1037044925901.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46483 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rvotaw at i... wrote: > I'm bringing this over from the movie list, where it has recently been > discussed regarding Tom Riddle in the CoS movie. Now, here's my question. Is > Hagrid's comment about "You Know Who" coming from Slytherin really the > only "proof" that Riddle was in Slytherin? I seem to have mental references to > other links, but can't think of them. Have I been fooling myself all this time > based on one little comment from Hagrid? Who has been known to say things that > weren't quite the truth anyway. Surely there's other canon supporting that Tom > Riddle was in Slytherin? > > Richelle I thought that Riddle was the last descendent of Slytherin which is why he could open the door to the chamber. Harry can also gain access to the chamber because of his connection to LV which is also why he could have done great things had he been placed in Slytherin. In CoS chapter 13, Harry enters Riddle's diary and sees him staking out the dungeons in order to catch Hagrid. Even as a prefect, riddle would not have much business on "Slytherin turf" unless he was a Slytherin. Also, he seems to have an understanding of what Hagrid is up to which would indicate to me that the two are in the same house. Does this mean that Hagrid was in Slytherin? Does anyone know what house Hagrid was in? -Maureen Amber From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 22:33:04 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:33:04 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Death_in_the_Wizarding_World_AND_Harry_sparing_V=92Mort?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46484 Pip!Squeak ("bluesqueak") wrote: > The attitude of the books towards killing someone because of what > they've done is absolutely clear. It's wrong. Now me: I completely agree (and want to point out that when I brought this same opinion up before, I was accused by a Wolf-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named as engaging in "metathinking!"). In PoA, when Harry decided to spare Pettigrew, he tells Peter: "I'm doing it because - I don't reckon my dad would've wanted them [Sirius and Remus] to become killers - just for you" (Ch. 19). So, even when killing is justified (which I think many would agree it would have been in this circumstance), Harry doesn't allow it to happen because it would mean that Sirius and Remus would become "killers." And in GoF, Sirius tells Harry, Ron and Hermione in the cave that during Voldemort's first reign, "The Aurors were given new powers - powers to kill rather than capture, for instance" (Ch. 27). This is given as an example of Crouch Sr.'s ruthlessness, as Sirius says (in the same chapter of GoF): "Well, times like that bring out the best in some people and the worst in others. Crouch's principles might've been good in the beginning - I wouldn't know. He rose quickly through the Ministry, and he started ordering very harsh measures against Voldemort's supporters." Pip!Squeak again: > It didn't even *occur* to Harry to try Avada Kedavra in the > Graveyard duel (Chapter 34 of GoF) ? not even a momentary thought > that he wasn't powerful enough to try it. The whole thrust of the > books to date would be against Harry choosing to kill Voldemort, or > turning him over to the MoM to be executed. Me again: Once again, I completely agree, and once again, when I made this same point previously, that same Wolf-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named argued that Harry didn't use the AK because he didn't know how, and because Voldemort was playing mind games with him to get him to use weaker duelling club tactics instead of his stronger wandless power. But I still think the fact that it never occurred to Harry to try the AK when he *knew* Voldemort was going to throw it ("He knew he was facing the thing against which Moody had always warned...the unblockable Avada Kedavra curse" [Ch. 34 GoF]) suggests that JKR's message is that killing is wrong, regardless of the circumstance in which you find yourself. And I'm not convinced that Harry would have been unable to throw the AK if he had tried - after all, he can throw a lot of other complicated charms/spells/hexes/curses (the Patronus Charm, for example) and is one of the few who can intuitively resist the Imperius Curse. Pip!Squeak again: > So, I would guess that if Voldemort does die at the end of the > books, it will *not* be because Harry deliberately kills him. He > may well end up like Lockhart, though. Impaled upon his own sword. Me again: Great idea - perhaps the sword Voldemort will be impaled upon will be the recorporation potion which is presumed to be fatally flawed because he used Harry's blood? ~Phyllis From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 22:41:51 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:41:51 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's House and Wizarding Education In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46485 Maureen Amber ("amberhillcrest") wrote: > Does this mean that Hagrid was in Slytherin? Does anyone know what > house Hagrid was in? Now me: JKR said in an interview that Hagrid was in Gryffindor ("naturally!"). PickleJimmy asked: < If I am to assume that the Wizarding Community produces more than > 40 kids a year, is it only the top 40 'student wizards' (including > any magically inclined muggles) that get in to the prestigious > Hogwarts? And if this is the case, what happens to the rest of them? > Can they be home schooled magic by their parents, or do some > correspondence course? Now me: In CoS, Justin Finch-Fletchley tells Harry, "My name was down for Eton, you know. I can't tell you how glad I am I came here instead" (Ch. 6). Which suggests that wizards can and do go to Muggle schools if they so choose, or if they're not chosen for Hogwarts or another institution of higher wizarding education. ~Phyllis From squireandknight at yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 23:02:20 2002 From: squireandknight at yahoo.com (Becky) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 23:02:20 -0000 Subject: Question regarding Tom Riddle In-Reply-To: <8530097.1037044925901.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46486 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rvotaw at i... wrote: > I'm bringing this over from the movie list, where it has recently been > discussed regarding Tom Riddle in the CoS movie. Now, here's my question. Is > Hagrid's comment about "You Know Who" coming from Slytherin really the > only "proof" that Riddle was in Slytherin? I seem to have mental references to > other links, but can't think of them. Have I been fooling myself all this time > based on one little comment from Hagrid? Who has been known to say things that > weren't quite the truth anyway. Surely there's other canon supporting that Tom > Riddle was in Slytherin? > > Richelle Well, I'm quite prepared to take Hagrid's word for it. They were in Hogwarts at the same time (obviously), and while I don't by the there was never a wizard that went bad that didn't come from Slytherin comment, I always assumed that that bias was *because* he knew who Voldemort was (and that he'd got Hagrid expelled). Ani wrote: > Richelle.. wrote: >> Pipin Responded: >> Of course we don't know the source of Ron's knowledge, but it >> does seem that everyone, not just Hagrid, knows Voldemort was >> in Slytherin. >Actually, I question Ron's sources. Not that I doubt Riddle was a >Slytherin however, in CoS, Dumbeldore says that no many people knew >that Tom Riddle and Lord Voldemort where the same person. I guess >Tom didn't seem the sort. I can certianly understand no connecting a >handsome, intelligent head boy with that monstrosity. >My guess is that it's simply a Slytherin bias which lead to the >assumption, and then, unsupported accepted fact, that Voldemort had >to be a Slytherin. >Which is horridly unfair to the Slyths. even if it did turn out to >be true. >-Ani Erm. Normally I'd agree with you, but AFAICR there is no mention of anybody but Hagrid referring to LV's House. The quote with Ron comes from the CTMNBN, *not* the books. In the books, this is a clear Hagrid line. I honestly *don't* think that Ron would have any clue what House LV was in. I can imagine a "Probably in Slytherin" (said with an appropriate disgusted grimace ;-)), but I'm not ready to go all "poor, maligned Slytherin" using CTMNBN quotes. :P Becky From editor at texas.net Mon Nov 11 23:28:31 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:28:31 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question regarding Tom Riddle References: <8530097.1037044925901.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> Message-ID: <004b01c289da$1af784a0$5205a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46487 Richelle said: I'm bringing this over from the movie list, where it has recently been discussed regarding Tom Riddle in the CoS movie. Now, here's my question. Is Hagrid's comment about "You Know Who" coming from Slytherin really the only "proof" that Riddle was in Slytherin? I seem to have mental references to other links, but can't think of them. Have I been fooling myself all this time based on one little comment from Hagrid? Who has been known to say things that weren't quite the truth anyway. Surely there's other canon supporting that Tom Riddle was in Slytherin? Me: I am following you over, because I'd wanted to throw it to this list, too (it was originally a question about why Tom Riddle's robes in the Chamber sequence are not obviously Slytherin). This very subject had come up offlist a few months ago, and those of us discussing it had been unable to prove a solid link. Here's what I said on the movie list: ---------------------------- L.O.O.N. on deck. Technically, canon does not provide an iron-clad link that Tom Riddle was in Slytherin. This is frustrating but true. Hagrid says that You-Know-Who was from Slytherin (the point being, it is *Voldemort* and *not* Tom Riddle identified as being Slytherin). Dumbledore later says that not very many people know that Tom Riddle became Voldemort. Given that Hagrid is not a 100% reliable source, the tiny breakdown of knowledge (*did* Hagrid know it was Tom Riddle who became Voldemort?) cannot be bridged except by a logical guess. It's not canonically certain. Yet. So Riddle could have defensibly worn any of the House robes without violating canon. -------------------------- I have since found the page: here's the quote: [Hagrid:] 'There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You-Know-Who was one.' [Harry:] 'Vol--sorry--You Know Who was at Hogwarts?' 'Years an' years ago,' said Hagrid. pp. 61-62, PS This, of course, is the passage that establishes Hagrid as an unreliable source (not to mention giving Sirius-lovers heartburn), since at the time Hagrid said this, Sirius was clearly considered a wizard who went bad, and thus either (a) Hagrid's given to a bit of broad generalization for emphasis, or (b) Sirius wasn't in Gryffindor. The consensus has been (a). [All the Sirius-lovers were running out of TUMs, we had to do *something.*] Looking at the quote, one can draw no conclusions at all as to whether Hagrid realizes that Tom Riddle became Voldemort, or whether he is simply repeating a "known truth" (a la Snape wants the DADA job). Dumbledore himself later says that very few people realized Voldemort was Tom Riddle; we don't know if Hagrid is one of the few. A small, but at the moment unbridgable, gap. Does anyone else have any insight on this? Canon to shore it up? Because I'd say it's 95% likely that either Hagrid knows for sure, or that he just happens to be correct. But it's not *certain,* and it also has a bit of the flavor of those sneaky little unquestioned assumptions that JKR loves to build in until we believe it's the floor, get used to standing on it, stop thinking about it, relax, and *then* she releases that trap-switch. ~Amanda, who has not seen TCTTMNBN2 yet From editor at texas.net Mon Nov 11 23:34:27 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:34:27 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question regarding Tom Riddle/what house was Hagrid in? References: Message-ID: <006d01c289db$a82d9d40$5205a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46490 Maureen Amber said > In CoS chapter 13, Harry enters Riddle's diary and sees him staking out the dungeons in order to catch Hagrid. Even as a prefect, riddle would not have much business on "Slytherin turf" unless he was a Slytherin. Also, he seems to have an understanding of what Hagrid is up to which would indicate to me that the two are in the same house. > > Does this mean that Hagrid was in Slytherin? Does anyone know what house Hagrid was in? And *this* is the question that gives *Hagrid*-lovers heartburn. [I should buy some TUMs stock.] I had noticed before that he and Riddle use *first names* for each other; this usage seems rare, at least by modern Hogwarts standards, unless you know each other pretty well. Like being in the same House, or being related. Otherwise it seems to be last names. I haven't the time right now to comb for examples....anyone want to go for looking into first-name usages? ~Amanda, keeping one roll of TUMs in reserve for when that infernal "Snape is a vampire" thread comes around again From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Tue Nov 12 00:00:02 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 01:00:02 +0100 (CET) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizarding education matters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021112000002.89470.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46491 Education at Hogwarts, that?s an interesting topic. I?d like to share here some thinking about what kids are taught or not, and about what it could imply. Learning and understanding ?Mathematics is probably not regarded as a separate subject in the WW? much of muggle maths is quite closely related to muggle physics, and Wizards don't seem to use statistics much. Weights, measurements and timings would be covered in Potions. Calculation of angles, orbits, observation measurements, calendars, would be part of Astronomy. Generally, maths needed for a subject is almost certainly covered in that subject, *not* in separate, unmentioned classes.? Isabelle Smadja, who wrote an essay about the Potter series, pointed out that the education young wizards receive at Hogwarts is close to humanist culture. Therefore, it?s quite normal if mathematics are involved in other subjects, because humanist culture didn?t consider them as something else than an implement for music, painting, architecture, etc.; just the way wizarding teaching seems to use them .Harry and Co don?t know how lucky they are, they don?t have to calculate only in order to calculate. The matter is that there is one subject they don?t pay attention to enough, because of the way it is taught to them. Big part of Hogwarts pedagogy and teaching are based upon experimentation. JKR seems to consider that learning comes out of necessity, that?s why most of Hogwarts subjects deal with direct practice (Transfiguration, Potions, DADA whith Lupin or Moody/Crouch JR, for ex). Students have to practice, so they can understand how a spell or a potion works, what it is really. That how they build their own knowledge, and we see Harry and Co using what they learnt in those subjects to solve plots or to save the day (Wingardium Leviosa, Polyjuice,the Ridikkulus Spell, etc ). They use it because they understand why it is useful, just the way they understand that mathematics are useful for Potions, Arithmancy, etc. However, there?s a subject they don?t care much about and they don?t appeal to as much as they do with the others: History of Magic. Professor Binns?s teaching is deadly boring, because his students only have to write and write, then learn what they wrote. This subject isn?t useless, but it seems to be, because of the way Binns teaches it. He looks like a scholastic teacher; his conception of knowledge seems to lean on compilation and repetition, and he doesn?t try to link with experience. As an example, we can consider that in CoS he doesn?t even think in telling his class the story of the Chamber of Secrets, while all the school is struck by Slytherin monster. Hermione has to ask him, and first he doesn?t know what to do, because he doesn?t see himself the relation between the subject he teaches and what is happening now. Let?s add the homework he has given to Harry at the beginning of PoA: all the kid has to do, to write his essay, is to copy a paragraph out, probably because there is no other way of doing homework according to Binns?s pedagogy. Compilation, repetition. The result is that when he has to pass his exam, Harry prefers to write on his parchment what Florian ?Wassisname? told him during the holidays. He doesn?t see the interest of discussing about witchcraft trials, because Binns didn?t show the class how important they were. How could Harry think such a boring and sterile subject would help him? However it?s obvious in Book 3 that there?s a close relation between what Harry is taught in History of Magic (witchcraft trials) and what he lives (Buckbeak?s trial and the iniquitous sentence that sent Sirius Black to Azkaban). Nevertheless, the boy just doesn?t see it because Binns didn?t teach him what History of Magic was for. And when one considers how important the question of trials and sentences seems to be in the series (see: the Pensieve chapter in Book 4, the Dementors), it?s obvious that History of Magic will come out as a major subject in Harry?s education. Simply because the Boy Who Lived and his doom are part of it. History of Magic could help Harry to understand better what is happening to him, to see that the wizarding time is cyclic, that some facts come back periodically. But there?s no help in the way Binns teaches History of Magic: he recites facts, he doesn?t analyse them, so he doesn?t make them understandable. It?s a true disaster, and nobody reacts. Even worse: Binns , as a ghost, won?t go into retirement, and if some teachers are criticized (Hagrid, Lupin, even Dumbledore), he is not, so there?s no possibility he would be sacked. Is History of Magic a minor subject in the WW? Probably. Conclusion: the Dark Side can go on gaining power quietly; the WW doesn?t seem to pay much attention to the past. That?s the strongest Memory Charm you can find and that kind of amnesy is the fastest way for Voldemort to come back easily. Unless they are all partisans of the Dark Lord and have some interest in keeping History of Magic in its scholastic dead end, those who rule Hogwarts (and Dumbledore?) should think in what this subject is actually for. Taught as just a mere chronology, it?s practically useless. Some will object that students can make the analyse by themselves. Okay, maybe someone like Hermione. But the average student will go on learning dates and facts, reciting them the day of the exam without understanding how they make sense. Science sans conscience n?est que ruine de l??me(ask Fleur for a translation) could be one of the messages of the HP books. Education and citizenship ?They obviously don't learn languages, as there are several jokes in GoF about the British Wizards general inability to speak any other language than their own (except for Crouch Sr. and Dumbledore).? That?s right, and that?s worrying from a social point of view. Wizards forget what happened in the past, and they are rather careless about what could help their children to survive, like cooperating and opening up to the others. That?s probably why Hogwarts?students don?t learn languages (Hermione studies ancient runes, but are they a language or a code?). When you learn a foreign language, you also learn about a foreign society, a foreign culture, and IMHO, it can help people on the way of tolerance and cooperation, two bases of citizenship. Therefore, those two concepts don?t seem to have many importance in the WW education, though some try to develop them, for example, trying to restore the Triwizards Tournament. That?s a generous reaction, but the way it goes all along GoF shows it?s rather a fiasco. Instead of developing cooperation, the Tournament exacerbates rivalries, between the three schools and between Hogwarts?students. What the kids are taught by this tournament is not cooperation, but division. That?s quite logical if we consider the three tasks: they are based upon competition and individualisation. Each champion must surpass the others and find solutions on his/her own. Their teachers (Karkaroff, Madame Maxime and even dear Hagrid) are ready to cheat to win (cf the dragons task). Each college wants to show the two others its superiority. However, there?s no need of a Tournament to point out divisions and competition in Hogwarts itself. All the Hogwarts educative system deals with competition. There?s a Four Houses Cup, there are four Quidditch teams, there are four Common Rooms with secret passwords. Though JKR mentions in CoS ?evening activities? cancelled because of the danger, we don?t know if there?s a room where the students can meet besides their respective Houses. There?s the Great Hall, but it?s not the same thing as a foyer, or a cafeteria, as there are in muggle schools. As for the clubs, the only one the kids attend is a duelling club, another fiasco. If we consider Hogwarts as a micro-society, we can say that it doen?t know how to federate its students, or doesn?t want, maybe because of traditions. How in that case could this school educate citizens? That?s not the case. It seems that the problems the WW has to face when Harry?s story at Hogwarts begins are generated yet by the school itself. As a base of wizards? education (the other one is family), Hogwarts? traditional system maintain divisions instead of trying to borrow them. That?s another major weakness for the WW, especially face to the Dark Side. The Dark Lord, as a dictator, knows how to federate his partisans, even if his methods are terror and menace. The Dark Side has a forced unity, but it?s a strength. On the contrary, at the end of GoF, the ?normal? wizards seem divided, so weak. Of course, we can expect a reaction and a great unity movement in the forthcoming books. Nevertheless, that?s how the things are after four novels; the WW according to JKR is a society in danger because of its short memory and lack of evolution. Doomed, they are doomed; many listies debated this topic about the characters. Shouldn?t we debate it about the whole wizarding society? The Dark Side understood yet how much those two weaknesses could be useful. Think in what Crouch Jr tells Harry in Moody?s office at the end of GoF, when he reveals the mechanisms of the plot. He points out the fact Harry doesn?t always understand that all he?s got to learn is important, and that he does need the others if he wants to go on. That?s IMHO how his criticising Harry?s behaviour with Neville, in which book was the solution to the second task, has to be understood. In one sense, this is the best lesson Harry ever received in Hogwarts. But I?m maybe wrong, so wrong . Education at Hogwarts, that?s an interesting topic. I?d like to share here some thinking about what kids are taught or not, and about what it could imply. Learning and understanding Bluesqueak wrote: ?Mathematics is probably not regarded as a separate subject in the WW? much of muggle maths is quite closely related to muggle physics, and Wizards don't seem to use statistics much. Weights, measurements and timings would be covered in Potions. Calculation of angles, orbits, observation measurements, calendars, would be part of Astronomy. Generally, maths needed for a subject is almost certainly covered in that subject, *not* in separate, unmentioned classes.? Isabelle Smadja, who wrote an essay about the Potter series, pointed out that the education young wizards receive at Hogwarts is close to humanist culture. Therefore, it?s quite normal if mathematics are involved in other subjects, because humanist culture didn?t consider them as something else than an implement for music, painting, architecture, etc.; just the way wizarding teaching seems to use them .Harry and Co don?t know how lucky they are, they don?t have to calculate only in order to calculate. The matter is that there is one subject they don?t pay attention to enough, because of the way it is taught to them. Big part of Hogwarts pedagogy and teaching are based upon experimentation. JKR seems to consider that learning comes out of necessity, that?s why most of Hogwarts subjects deal with direct practice (Transfiguration, Potions, DADA whith Lupin or Moody/Crouch JR, for ex). Students have to practice, so they can understand how a spell or a potion works, what it is really. That how they build their own knowledge, and we see Harry and Co using what they learnt in those subjects to solve plots or to save the day (Wingardium Leviosa, Polyjuice,the Ridikkulus Spell, etc ). They use it because they understand why it is useful, just the way they understand that mathematics are useful for Potions, Arithmancy, etc. However, there?s a subject they don?t care much about and they don?t appeal to as much as they do with the others: History of Magic. Professor Binns?s teaching is deadly boring, because his students only have to write and write, then learn what they wrote. This subject isn?t useless, but it seems to be, because of the way Binns teaches it. He looks like a scholastic teacher; his conception of knowledge seems to lean on compilation and repetition, and he doesn?t try to link with experience. As an example, we can consider that in CoS he doesn?t even think in telling his class the story of the Chamber of Secrets, while all the school is struck by Slytherin monster. Hermione has to ask him, and first he doesn?t know what to do, because he doesn?t see himself the relation between the subject he teaches and what is happening now. Let?s add the homework he has given to Harry at the beginning of PoA: all the kid has to do, to write his essay, is to copy a paragraph out, probably because there is no other way of doing homework according to Binns?s pedagogy. Compilation, repetition. The result is that when he has to pass his exam, Harry prefers to write on his parchment what Florian ?Wassisname? told him during the holidays. He doesn?t see the interest of discussing about witchcraft trials, because Binns didn?t show the class how important they were. How could Harry think such a boring and sterile subject would help him? However it?s obvious in Book 3 that there?s a close relation between what Harry is taught in History of Magic (witchcraft trials) and what he lives (Buckbeak?s trial and the iniquitous sentence that sent Sirius Black to Azkaban). Nevertheless, the boy just doesn?t see it because Binns didn?t teach him what History of Magic was for. And when one considers how important the question of trials and sentences seems to be in the series (see: the Pensieve chapter in Book 4, the Dementors), it?s obvious that History of Magic will come out as a major subject in Harry?s education. Simply because the Boy Who Lived and his doom are part of it. History of Magic could help Harry to understand better what is happening to him, to see that the wizarding time is cyclic, that some facts come back periodically. But there?s no help in the way Binns teaches History of Magic: he recites facts, he doesn?t analyse them, so he doesn?t make them understandable. It?s a true disaster, and nobody reacts. Even worse: Binns , as a ghost, won?t go into retirement, and if some teachers are criticized (Hagrid, Lupin, even Dumbledore), he is not, so there?s no possibility he would be sacked. Is History of Magic a minor subject in the WW? Probably. Conclusion: the Dark Side can go on gaining power quietly; the WW doesn?t seem to pay much attention to the past. That?s the strongest Memory Charm you can find and that kind of amnesy is the fastest way for Voldemort to come back easily. Unless they are all partisans of the Dark Lord and have some interest in keeping History of Magic in its scholastic dead end, those who rule Hogwarts (and Dumbledore?) should think in what this subject is actually for. Taught as just a mere chronology, it?s practically useless. Some will object that students can make the analyse by themselves. Okay, maybe someone like Hermione. But the average student will go on learning dates and facts, reciting them the day of the exam without understanding how they make sense. Science sans conscience n?est que ruine de l??me(ask Fleur for a translation) could be one of the messages of the HP books. Education and citizenship Bluesqueak wrote: ?They obviously don't learn languages, as there are several jokes in GoF about the British Wizards general inability to speak any other language than their own (except for Crouch Sr. and Dumbledore).? That?s right, and that?s worrying from a social point of view. Wizards forget what happened in the past, and they are rather careless about what could help their children to survive, like cooperating and opening up to the others. That?s probably why Hogwarts?students don?t learn languages (Hermione studies ancient runes, but are they a language or a code?). When you learn a foreign language, you also learn about a foreign society, a foreign culture, and IMHO, it can help people on the way of tolerance and cooperation, two bases of citizenship. Therefore, those two concepts don?t seem to have many importance in the WW education, though some try to develop them, for example, trying to restore the Triwizards Tournament. That?s a generous reaction, but the way it goes all along GoF shows it?s rather a fiasco. Instead of developing cooperation, the Tournament exacerbates rivalries, between the three schools and between Hogwarts?students. What the kids are taught by this tournament is not cooperation, but division. That?s quite logical if we consider the three tasks: they are based upon competition and individualisation. Each champion must surpass the others and find solutions on his/her own. Their teachers (Karkaroff, Madame Maxime and even dear Hagrid) are ready to cheat to win (cf the dragons task). Each college wants to show the two others its superiority. However, there?s no need of a Tournament to point out divisions and competition in Hogwarts itself. All the Hogwarts educative system deals with competition. There?s a Four Houses Cup, there are four Quidditch teams, there are four Common Rooms with secret passwords. Though JKR mentions in CoS ?evening activities? cancelled because of the danger, we don?t know if there?s a room where the students can meet besides their respective Houses. There?s the Great Hall, but it?s not the same thing as a foyer, or a cafeteria, as there are in muggle schools. As for the clubs, the only one the kids attend is a duelling club, another fiasco. If we consider Hogwarts as a micro-society, we can say that it doen?t know how to federate its students, or doesn?t want, maybe because of traditions. How in that case could this school educate citizens? That?s not the case. It seems that the problems the WW has to face when Harry?s story at Hogwarts begins are generated yet by the school itself. As a base of wizards? education (the other one is family), Hogwarts? traditional system maintain divisions instead of trying to borrow them. That?s another major weakness for the WW, especially face to the Dark Side. The Dark Lord, as a dictator, knows how to federate his partisans, even if his methods are terror and menace. The Dark Side has a forced unity, but it?s a strength. On the contrary, at the end of GoF, the ?normal? wizards seem divided, so weak. Of course, we can expect a reaction and a great unity movement in the forthcoming books. Nevertheless, that?s how the things are after four novels; the WW according to JKR is a society in danger because of its short memory and lack of evolution. Doomed, they are doomed; many listies debated this topic about the characters. Shouldn?t we debate it about the whole wizarding society? The Dark Side understood yet how much those two weaknesses could be useful. Think in what Crouch Jr tells Harry in Moody?s office at the end of GoF, when he reveals the mechanisms of the plot. He points out the fact Harry doesn?t always understand that all he?s got to learn is important, and that he does need the others if he wants to go on. That?s IMHO how his criticising Harry?s behaviour with Neville, in which book was the solution to the second task, has to be understood. In one sense, this is the best lesson Harry ever received in Hogwarts. But I?m maybe wrong, so wrong . Iris --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From the.gremlin at verizon.net Tue Nov 12 00:25:56 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 00:25:56 -0000 Subject: Question regarding Tom Riddle/what house was Hagrid in? In-Reply-To: <006d01c289db$a82d9d40$5205a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46492 Amanda Geist asked: "I haven't the time right now to comb for examples....anyone want to go for looking into first-name usages? ~Amanda, keeping one roll of TUMs in reserve for when that infernal "Snape is a vampire" thread comes around again" Got one! I was reading it this morning. after a conversation between Snape and Karkaroff (or Severus and Igor, if you prefer) "'What's got Karkaroff all worried?' Ron muttered. 'And since when have he and Snape been on first name terms?' said Harry slowly." Also, these aren't quoted, but Harry and Draco refer to each other as 'Potter' and 'Malfoy'. Snape refers to his students, mainly, Ron, Harry, and Hermione, as 'Potter, Weasley, and Granger'. All the other teachers refer to their students that way. The only person who isn't referred to by his first name by the people who know him best is Hagrid: "'Call me Hagrid," he said, "everyone does.'" There's a few of them. And I haven't seen the Snape is a vampire thread for awhile. -Acire, who thinks that Snape just needs a few weeks in the tropics, and he'll be just fine. From tmarends at yahoo.com Tue Nov 12 00:26:23 2002 From: tmarends at yahoo.com (Tim) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 00:26:23 -0000 Subject: JK's writings/photos: Was: Snape/Karkaroff / How Many Students? / Weasley Clock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46493 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" > wrote: > > << Rowling cannot possibly list EVERY student in the school >> > > > > She DID list every student in Harry's year and showed it to the TV > > camera and you can see screen-captures if you go to HPfGU's photo > > section http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/lst and > > click on the album titled Harry Potter and Me. > > Well we can see a page or two, but not everyone. But I was actually > going to ask you something else. I have heard it mentioned that JK > refuses to say what the symbols mean. However, just from a few minor > glances, the squares vs. the circles. It appears all the circles are > girls and the squares are boys. And the right hand column is HGSR. > The houses. So I guess that leaves that mysterious middle > column . . . any thoughts? The three symbols you can see in the middle column seem to be a star, a star with a circle around it, and a "N" in a box. Hermione and Justin Finch-Fletchley have the "N", Seamus, Crabbe, and Goyle have the star with circle. It's got to mean something... is Seamus going to suffer the same type of fate as Crabbe and Goyle?? Tim From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Nov 12 00:44:34 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:44:34 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron or Hermione? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16457436632.20021111164434@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46494 Hi, Monday, November 11, 2002, 11:52:43 AM, Darla wrote: > What do you think? Which one would be most vital to the survival > of the books? To me they are both vital, and I don't think either one of them will die. I couldn't choose one or the other. They both bring different aspects to the story, and while some might think Hermione's knowledge outweighs Ron's contributions, I'm not one of them. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From strayaluna at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 12 00:21:20 2002 From: strayaluna at bellsouth.net (Dominique Medal) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:21:20 -0600 Subject: Dumbledore's watch Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46495 'Dumbledore gave a great sniff as he took a golden watch from his pocket and examined it. It was a very odd watch. It had twelve hands but no numbers; instead, little planets were moving around the edge. It must have made sense to Dumbledore, though, because he put it back in his pocket and said, 'Hagrid's late...' p15, PS The watch does not follow people. It is instead some sort of celestial watch. I don't know how it works, but I imagine that magic is heavily involved. While he may have assigned planets to various people, this is not supported by canon. All canon seems to imply is that Hagrid was supposed to be at the Dursleys' by a certain time, which Dumbledore can tell from his celestial watch. Besides which, wouldn't it have mentioned any writing, like 'In Mortal Peril' or 'Late,' in the description? That's not something you find on Muggle watches, and so it would need to be described. Straya Luna niqui Chances, an Alternate Universe Extravaganza The Chances LJ The Imperio Diaries From illyana at mindspring.com Tue Nov 12 00:49:41 2002 From: illyana at mindspring.com (illyana delorean) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:49:41 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evil Wizards In-Reply-To: <1ad.bc82825.2b017f6c@aol.com> References: <1ad.bc82825.2b017f6c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46496 >Audra wrote: > >And also the comment that there was never a wizard that went bad that didn't >come from Slytherin. > You know - I've been thinking about that comment for awhile. Does that mean that no bad wizards have ever come from Durmstrang or Beauxbatons (I apologize if I misspelled either of those names)? Of course, that comment could have applied to just evil wizards who went to Hogwarts but, in my opinon, it seems like the comment is meant to be applied to the whole of the wizarding world, not just Hogwarts students and alumni. It seems highly unlikely that all of the evil wizards have come from Hogwarts. Plus, if that was true, it seems that the MOM would probably investigate! Any thoughts? illyana -- S1.3 MIL+++ RWG++# FRI++ CBG++ P&S-- f++/+++ n- $++++ 9F13, 1F22, 2F13, 3F02, 3F05, 4F01, 4F08, 4F11, 4F19 F1980 HPGCv1 a22 e+ x+* Rm Ri HP4 S+++ Mo++ HG+/VK++ HaP+/SS+++& FGW++ DM++& VC-- GG-- CD+ VK++ SS+++& PT--- AF-- MM++ RL++ O+m FAo F- Sl FHo SfD "What's the point in having a Honda if you can't show it off?" - Superintendent Chalmers visit my livejournal! http://www.livejournal.com/users/illyanadmc From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 12 01:19:22 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 01:19:22 -0000 Subject: the DEW DROP Hands, an apology, and bit of TBAY In-Reply-To: <42.30946327.2b017159@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46497 JOdel asked: >Who says Flitwick & Trelawney don't have assigned hands? Well for now, only we say. ;) They very well could. Just in my theory, the people that have a dedicated watch hand are the ones that are linked to Dumbledore's plans outside of school. >Does Dumbledore only use this watch for special events, or does he >carry it every day? Hard to say. It could be his "old crowd" watch, and he has another "school work" watch. After all, the Weasley's have two wizard clocks in their house that have two different purposes. >If it's an everyday watch it would make a lot more sense for the >hands to represent Hogwarts staff. Which Hagrid is. He was tracking >Hagrid, not Harry. That is what I found a bit vague. Dumbledore could of been looking at the 'Hagrid hand' to know Hagrid was late, or he could of been looking at the 'Harry' hand to see that Harry was late and thus also was Hagrid. It would seen odd for Dumbledore to say Harry is late since Harry had no say in their punctuality. > After all, wouldn't the Headmaster need to be able to find any >member of the staff at any time regardless of whatever ememrgencies >are likely to blow up in a school of magic? True. Though Dumbledore did send that silver arrow to Hagrid to get him. And now I wonder, how did he know Hagrid was there? Yes, the light in the window or smoke in the chimney could of been a giveaway, but he did *know* Hagrid was definitely there. -------------- Dominique Medal wrote: >The watch does not follow people. It is instead some sort of >celestial watch. I don't know how it works, but I imagine that magic >is heavily involved. While he may have assigned planets to various >people, this is not supported by canon. All canon seems to imply is >that Hagrid was supposed to be at the Dursleys' by a certain time, >which Dumbledore can tell from his celestial watch. Well, Dominique we are not told what exactly this watch is. It could be celestial, I agree. But the possibility that it could be similar to the wizard clocks at the Weasley's house is also there. As you pointed out, Dumbledore looked at the watch and saw that Hagrid is late. Now he could of saw that by the time or by the fact that Hagrid's (or Harry's) hand of the watch was pointing at the area/planets that means the person is late. Either way, Dumbledore did expect Hagrid there by a certain time, and by either watch reading he was late. And, I don't believe the planets are what the people are assigned. With the Weasley clocks, the hands are assigned to the family members. Now Dumbledore's watch has twelve hands, so I theorize they are for twelve different people. The planets are just a type of celestial language that Dumbledore is reading to discover the state of the assigned hand character. Hope that clears up the DEW DROP theory there for you. -------------- Elkins' ADMIN post over in the Movie site reminded me that I forgot to do this yesterday: I wrote that: >>Iris wrote:<< >>If you did torture the person who tortured you I would say that that >>was morally wrong. **snip** I can see the argument if he uses the >>AK spell, but maybe he'll use Gryffindor's sword. Then Iris pointed out: >It wasn't me. I don't know who wrote it, mais c'?tait pas moi, >m'dame! Iris, I am so sorry about that. ~Katey wrote that quote. I did not mean to put words in your mouth that you did not intend to say. Forgive me. ---------- Catlady wrote: > Melody TBAYed (at the Moon?): << "I don't know. I was happily walking when I think the tree attacked me." >> > Was it a Whomping Willow? Is there a theory named WHOMPING WILLOW? I did leave that rather vague, didn't I? Good. :) Think of the Old Man Willow in the LotR: FotR. It is kind of a play of that. Kind of. ;) What is important though is that I am recovering well in the Safe House. So my question is what does "at the moon?" mean? I am at a loss there. Could someone post or email me with the translation. Did I break a TBAY rule? Is there even rules for TBAY? Melody From illyana at mindspring.com Tue Nov 12 01:10:27 2002 From: illyana at mindspring.com (illyana delorean) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:10:27 -0700 Subject: Muggle/Magic Business and Money Exchange Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46498 > >bboy_mn wrote: > >I wonder if there is a magic world law against that???? > >then i added: > >I am assuming that there is a MOM law against wizards using >magic to manufacture goods that will be sold to muggles. Part of Mr. >Weasley's job is to ensure that muggles do not come across bewitched >items (and to fix the situation if they do), so that leads me to believe >that there would be a law against this. >bboy_mn replies: > >Well, you answered your own question. There is a big difference >between an object that was made by using magic, and an object that >contains magic after it's been made. bboy_mn also wrote: >Independant of my fiction, I still think, mostly on a very small >unobtrusive scale, that there are some businesses that act as an >interface between the wizard and muggle worlds. Probably a better >example is Gringotts bank. They have some need to exchange muggle >currencies. (snipped some sentances, again <- I don't want to have >to re-post again because I'm not snipping enough :) now I add even more!: This I totally agree with. Perhaps the goblins create business relationships with squibs who own muggle shops or something - the goblins could trade the muggle money for wizard money, and it probably wouldn't really matter either way to a squib, because they can use either kind of money. Of course, we could always just take the easy way out and say that the goblins just use magic to turn muggle money into wizard money, but that's just too easy (and unrealistic, in my opinion, because it would probably be illegal to tamper with money in the wizarding world - just like in the real world!). illyana -- S1.3 MIL+++ RWG++# FRI++ CBG++ P&S-- f++/+++ n- $++++ 9F13, 1F22, 2F13, 3F02, 3F05, 4F01, 4F08, 4F11, 4F19 F1980 HPGCv1 a22 e+ x+* Rm Ri HP4 S+++ Mo++ HG+/VK++ HaP+/SS+++& FGW++ DM++& VC-- GG-- CD+ VK++ SS+++& PT--- AF-- MM++ RL++ O+m FAo F- Sl FHo SfD "What's the point in having a Honda if you can't show it off?" - Superintendent Chalmers visit my livejournal! http://www.livejournal.com/users/illyanadmc From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Nov 12 01:40:33 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:40:33 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question regarding Tom Riddle/ Evil wizards References: Message-ID: <00f501c289ec$7e416fa0$3ca3cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 46499 Pippin writes: > Of course we don't know the source of Ron's knowledge, but it > does seem that everyone, not just Hagrid, knows Voldemort was > in Slytherin. Exactly. Everyone seems to think Voldemort is in Slytherin. Us included. :) Yet Dumbledore himself said that "very few" people knew Tom Riddle was Voldemort. The only ones I can think of right off are Dumbledore (of course), Lucius Malfoy, and Ollivander. And Ollivander probably only knew because Dumbledore needed wand info and told him as much. Yet it seems common knowledge that Voldemort came from Slytherin. Without anyone knowing who he really was. Something there doesn't quite connect. I mean what are the odds of Ron actually knowing for fact that Voldemort was in Slytherin when he didn't know who Voldemort was to begin with? There was never a "Voldemort" on the class roll at Hogwarts. Maureen Amber writes: > I thought that Riddle was the last descendent of Slytherin which is why he could open the door to the chamber. Harry can also gain access to the chamber because of his connection to LV which is also why he could have done great things had he been placed in Slytherin. Which since everyone (except Dumbledore) thought that Hagrid opened the chamber (and Hagrid was in Gryffindor, according to JKR) implies that you don't actually have to be in Slytherin to be the heir. And since many people suspected Harry, who is in Gryffindor. Amanda writes: > And *this* is the question that gives *Hagrid*-lovers heartburn. [I should > buy some TUMs stock.] I had noticed before that he and Riddle use *first > names* for each other; this usage seems rare, at least by modern Hogwarts > standards, unless you know each other pretty well. Like being in the same > House, or being related. Otherwise it seems to be last names. Very peculiar indeed. We've all been saying for the longest that someone bad is bound to have come from Gryffindor and someone good from Slytherin, just because. Interesting. Could it possibly be Riddle? I know it's pretty far fetched, but you never know. The name usage does imply (not for certain, of course, but still) that Riddle and Hagrid were in the same house. And since we know Hagrid to be a Gryffindor . . .. Then there's the particular choice of words used by Riddle to describe himself at Hogwarts. Of course, chosen carefully by JKR. Brilliant. Brave. Model student. Not generally the words used to describe your typical Slytherin. Of course, Riddle may not have been your typical Slytherin and still been *a* Slytherin. Still, let's see. Brilliant=Ravenclaw. Brave=Gryffindor. Brilliant and brave=Gryffindor (i.e. Hermione). Ah, well, wait and see . . . wait and see. illyana writes: > You know - I've been thinking about that comment for awhile. Does > that mean that no bad wizards have ever come from Durmstrang or > Beauxbatons (I apologize if I misspelled either of those names)? Of > course, that comment could have applied to just evil wizards who went > to Hogwarts but, in my opinon, it seems like the comment is meant to Well, one way or another, if every bad witch or wizard really came from not only Hogwarts, but from Slytherin in particular, why on Earth would they still have such a house? Just mark them and send them to Azkaban as soon as the Sorting Hat sorts them into Slytherin. (I'm kidding, kidding!) Anyway, surely it's a great exaggeration. I tend to believe that a large group of DEs came from Slytherin (Snape's gang, for example) but various other houses produced smaller numbers of DEs/evil wizards. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 12 02:45:51 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 02:45:51 -0000 Subject: Harry sparing V?Mort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46500 Pip wrote: > It didn't even *occur* to Harry to try Avada Kedavra in the > Graveyard duel (Chapter 34 of GoF) ? not even a momentary thought > that he wasn't powerful enough to try it. The whole thrust of the > books to date would be against Harry choosing to kill Voldemort, or > turning him over to the MoM to be executed. Really, I was not surprised that Harry did not even consider using the AK. He is a very obedient child (pushing aside his sneaking out of his tower). If he is not supposed to use a spell, especially a doomed spell, he wouldn't. He did not use AK in the graveyard, because he did not want the consequences. As also in the shrieking shack, he did not want Sirius and Lupin to suffer the consequences. In Harry's mind, even justified death AK's are not justified. Harry agrees that Voldemort and Peter do deserve dementor's kiss. He said so about Peter by association when Harry talked to Lupin about the MoM authorizing the kiss on Black (PoA, Ch12). Harry was angry because Black (Peter) caused so much pain to his family and assisted in killing his parents. Now with Voldemort, Harry's anger toward Voldemort is growing beyond just the death of his parents. After the Pensive viewing, Harry is laying in bed stewing over what he learned (GoF, Ch31). This is the first time we see Harry rallying up his anger against Voldemort. Kind of like Harry did when he was looking at the wedding pictures of Black in PoA. So in GoF, Harry is laying there remembering all the faces of the people in the pensive Voldemort had crippled (Neville's parents), splintered (Neville), or persuaded to his side and thus destroyed (Barty Jr.). After that scene, I felt Harry had finally justified in his mind what evil truly is and how he should do everything to be against it. Given that this anger about Voldemort is so similar to Harry's anger about the betrayer of his parents, then I say that Harry is quite at peace about a dementor's kiss for Voldemort, and by Harry's viewpoint that kiss is worse than death. But this discussion is about whether *Harry* would kill Voldemort. I guess I agree with the arguments put forth so far. Harry would in forced self-defense if he had too, but otherwise, he will bring him in because he should not kill. Oh, gracious, I don't know. Part of me sees this as a hero slays the dragon, but the other part sees the humanity of the series. Curse JKR for painting such a blurry fortune to date. Makes theorizing so blooming difficult...not that I am terribly discouraged. Pip theorized: > So, I would guess that if Voldemort does die at the end of the > books, it will *not* be because Harry deliberately kills him. He may > well end up like Lockhart, though. > > Impaled upon his own sword. That does seem the best solution. Evil killing evil. How fitting. Melody wondering what would happen if Voldemort did come back as a ghost. Who would that state torment more? Voldemort the ghost or WW the living? From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 12 03:07:59 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 03:07:59 -0000 Subject: Fearing Fear Most of All (WAS: Voldemort's Immortality Goal) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46501 Risti wrote: > I'd first of all like to say that what Phyllis said really got me > thinking, and not just because Voldemort's search for immortality > is a favorite topic of mine. Ultimately, as Phyllis > said, it is the fear and fascination of death that brings together > all of mankind. Now me: I'm glad I got you thinking (and I certainly can't take credit for how elegantly you summed up my initial post)! I've been thinking some more on this as well, and the following interchange between Harry and Lupin in Ch. 8 of PoA (when Harry tells Lupin he thought the boggart would turn into a dementor while Lupin was expecting a boggart Voldemort to appear) has always intrigued me: "'Well, well...I'm impressed.' He [Lupin] smiled slightly at the look of surprise on Harry's face. 'That suggests that what you fear most of all is - fear. Very wise, Harry.'" At this point in the series, I don't quite know what to make of Lupin's comment (and I feel as if I'm in good company, since "Harry didn't know what to say to that..."). I've always thought that this comment would make sense by the end of the series, however, and now I'm thinking that I might have a potential explanation. Perhaps this is what Lupin meant - Harry is only afraid of the *emotion* of fear rather than the *manifestation* of fear. So, while Voldemort, who is afraid of dying, needs to become immortal to eliminate the basis for his fear, Harry only needs to overcome his own emotions to conquer his fear. Thus, it is much more likely that Harry will be able to conquer his fear (since all he has to do is control his own inner emotions) than it is that Voldemort will be able to conquer his fear (since becoming immortal is a fairly tall order). I think Harry demonstrated at the end of GoF that he is able to control his inner emotions and thus conquer his fear - how else can we explain his springing from behind the gravestone and hurling an "Expelliarmus" at Voldemort when he knew he was facing an AK in return? This suggests that Harry has a huge advantage on Voldemort - he has shown that he can conquer fear, while Voldemort is still mortal and thus still lives in fear of dying. Quite an accomplishment at the tender age of 14! ~Phyllis From catlady at wicca.net Tue Nov 12 05:28:55 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 05:28:55 -0000 Subject: Melody / Number of Students & Wizarding Education / Ron / Justin / Seamus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46502 Melody wrote: << So my question is what does "at the moon?" mean? >> I was making a little, intended to be harmless, joke about "baying at the Moon", which is what wolves do, but I didn't have a reply to Grey Wolf to attach it to. Sorry. Lexicon Steve wrote: << Even with that number, I wonder how the kids at the back can possibly hear Dumbledore's speech. >> Either there is magical amplification (oh, Chris Nuttall said that before I did), or the hall has very superb acoustics, like some cathedrals I have heard of where a whisper on one side is echoed by the dome so that it can be heard on the other side. Pickle Jimmy wrote: << [do] squibs attend muggle schools >> Ron said Squibs are very rare. I think they might be very, very rare, such as one Squib born per 100 years. (My theory of why some people are born magic and some are born Squibs is in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/41509 ) If neither of the Squib's parents is Muggle or Muggle-born, the parents probably are way too ignorant of Muggle life to send their child to Muggle school. Look at poor Filch, stuck as a school custodian in the wizarding world because he has no training for a Muggle career. << Point 3. I'd assumed that Durmstrang and BeauxBattons were both outside the UK - even though we are not told exactly where they are. If there were other UK wizarding schools, wouldn't they have competed in the Tri-Wizard cup? >> Presumably Hogwarts (orginal campus), Durmstrang, and Beauxbatons are the three most prestigeous wizarding schools, so any other, less prestigeous schools aren't invited to compete. << Point 4. And here's my question - Where do magical kids learn the 3 R's (Reading, wRiting and aRithmetic)? >> My post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/44028 includes: "I believe that the wizarding parents are responsible for their children's elementary education. They can home-school, hire tutors, send the child to a Muggle school (if they can do so without breaking the law of Wizarding Secrecy), or send the child to small, local, private, wizarding elementary school. I believe that MoM never checks on whether the children are going to school and has no rules for credentialling elementary schools, but if the children don't have enough basic skills when they enter Hogwarts, the parents are fined and are disgraced by having their names listed in the DAILY PROPHET as "parents of stupid children". " << At 11 these kids focus on classes that deal only with magic, do they learn all the mathematics, history, geography, sciences, languages, etc that they will ever learn by this time? >> (Yes, Pip!Squeak answered already.) They learn all the mathematics and sciences that they will ever need in primary school. Arithmancy and Theory of Magic are more useful to them in wizarding life than math and science. They learn History and Geography from Professor Binns's History of Magic classes. They don't need to learn history of Muggle kings, wars, and inventions anymore than I need to memorize the Presidents of Mexico . I *don't* understand why they don't learn languages at Hogwarts. << is it only the top 40 'student wizards' (including any magically inclined muggles) that get in to the prestigious Hogwarts? And if this is the case, what happens to the rest of them? >> I say they go to other, lesser campuses of the Hogwarts System. One listie presented arguments that they go to Schools of Magic (which, he says, are different from Schools of Witchcraft and Wizardry because they only go up to OWL level). Another insists that they go straight into apprenticeships without any secondary school. << And why is it that any child (Neville Longbottom) that actually got in to Hogwarts would suffer from a magical self-esteem problem if they were indeed one of the top 40 magical 11 year olds in the whole of Great Britain? >> Self-esteem is psychological. I used to know a top-ability mathematician at JPL (he's dead now) who was *convinced* that he was nothing special and JPL only hired him out of pity. Darla wrote: << Also, if Ron were to die, what would happen to Harry's contact with the Weasleys? I LOVE them, lol, plus the books would be no where near as funny if Ron weren't there to show us the muggle world through his purely wizarding-no-experience-of-muggles eyes. >> Ginny could replace Ron as Harry's link to the Weasleys and his wizard's-eye view, altho' probably she couldn't replace Ron's deliciously snarky saracasm and boy talk. Phyllis wrote: << In CoS, Justin Finch-Fletchley tells Harry, "My name was down for Eton, you know. I can't tell you how glad I am I came here instead" (Ch. 6). Which suggests that wizards can and do go to Muggle schools if they so choose, or if they're not chosen for Hogwarts or another institution of higher wizarding education. >> I thought Justin was Muggle-born. The next sentence of his quote is: "Mother was slightly disappointed, but since I made her read Lockhart's books I think she's begun to see how useful it'll be to have a fully trained wizard in the family . . . ." Tim tmarends wrote: << The three symbols you can see in the middle column seem to be a star, a star with a circle around it, and a "N" in a box. Hermione and Justin Finch-Fletchley have the "N", Seamus, Crabbe, and Goyle have the star with circle. It's got to mean something... is Seamus going to suffer the same type of fate as Crabbe and Goyle?? >> I believe there is Something up with Seamus, because the Sorting Hat took "almost a whole minute" to Sort him. If the symbols mean which side of the Second Voldemort War the person joins, Seamus *could* sell out. However, people have speculated that the symbols mean N for Muggle-born, star for Half-blood, and circled star for pure-blood: does that mean that Seamus was lying about being half-and-half? Perhaps he was already at age 11 a Junior Death Eater deliberately infiltrating Gryffindor ... From the.gremlin at verizon.net Tue Nov 12 06:18:55 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 06:18:55 -0000 Subject: Ron or Hermione? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46503 Darla asked: "What do you think? Which one would be most vital to the survival of the books?" of ROn and Hermoine. If either had to die, I would vote for Hermione. She's cool and all, but I think Ron would be the better remainder. When Harry and Ron are fighting in GoF, Harry really misses Ron, and says that Hermione isn't as fun a friend. When Harry/Ron and Hermione are fighting, Harry doesn't seem to miss her quite as much. I think that Ron's death would be too much for Harry, and that his friendship with Ron is vital. After all, Ron was Harry's first-ever friend that he ever made. That was redundant. -Acire, whose mother wants her to change the fish's name from He-Who- Has-No-Name to something that won't give the fish a complex, because he thinks he's nameless. From psnow at nipha.com Tue Nov 12 01:52:45 2002 From: psnow at nipha.com (MrNipha) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 01:52:45 -0000 Subject: Muggle/Magic Business and Money Exchange In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46504 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., illyana delorean wrote: > >bboy_mn wrote: > > >Independant of my fiction, I still think, mostly on a very small > >unobtrusive scale, that there are some businesses that act as an > >interface between the wizard and muggle worlds. Probably a better > >example is Gringotts bank. They have some need to exchange muggle > >currencies. Illyana: > > This I totally agree with. Perhaps the goblins create business > relationships with squibs who own muggle shops or something - the > goblins could trade the muggle money for wizard money, and it > probably wouldn't really matter either way to a squib, because they > can use either kind of money. To me it seems there would be enough incoming muggle money in the money exchange business to not need any contact with the Muggle world for the Gringotts' goblins to obtain Muggle money. There is a need for all muggle-borns to trade Muggle money for Wizard money, and perhaps even some of the mixed-bloods if the main bread winner was the muggle parent. I believe there would be enough Muggle money coming into Gringotts to supply any need for the exchange of Wizard money to Muggle money, since contact with the muggle world is intentionally limited. Paul From Audra1976 at aol.com Tue Nov 12 07:44:36 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 02:44:36 EST Subject: JK's writings/photos: Was: Snape/Karkaroff / How Many Students? / Weasley Clock Message-ID: <28.2fa36901.2b020b64@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46505 << JK refuses to say what the symbols mean. However, just from a few minor glances, the squares vs. the circles. It appears all the circles are girls and the squares are boys. And the right hand column is HGSR. The houses. So I guess that leaves that mysterious middle column . . . any thoughts?>> Tim: The three symbols you can see in the middle column seem to be a star, a star with a circle around it, and a "N" in a box. Hermione and Justin Finch-Fletchley have the "N", Seamus, Crabbe, and Goyle have the star with circle. It's got to mean something... is Seamus going to suffer the same type of fate as Crabbe and Goyle?? >> Me: No. If you look at the enhanced photo you will see that the circle around Seamus's star is scribbled out. If the circled star indicates a pureblood wizard, as I believe it must, then JKR changed her mind about Seamus and decided to make him a halfblood wizard (star with no circle). Seamus says his mom's a witch and his dad's a muggle, so he is indeed a halfblood. He rmione and Justin are both said to be muggle-born (N in a box). Audra From illyana at mindspring.com Tue Nov 12 07:15:51 2002 From: illyana at mindspring.com (illyana delorean) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 00:15:51 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Money Exchange In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46506 > >I said: > > >> This I totally agree with. Perhaps the goblins create business >> relationships with squibs who own muggle shops or something - the >> goblins could trade the muggle money for wizard money, and it >> probably wouldn't really matter either way to a squib, because they >> can use either kind of money. then Paul said: >To me it seems there would be enough incoming muggle money in the >money exchange business to not need any contact with the Muggle world >for the Gringotts' goblins to obtain Muggle money. There is a need >for all muggle-borns to trade Muggle money for Wizard money, and >perhaps even some of the mixed-bloods if the main bread winner was the >muggle parent. I believe there would be enough Muggle money coming >into Gringotts to supply any need for the exchange of Wizard money to >Muggle money, since contact with the muggle world is intentionally limited. Maybe I am not hearing you correctly, but it seems as though you read my post wrong. I was not saying that the goblins are trading for muggle money, I am saying that they are taking all the muggle money (that people like Hermione's parents probably trade for wizard money) and trading it for wizard money. I don't see why the goblins would have any need for muggle money (unless a wizard wanted it for some reason), so they would probably want to exchange most of the muggle money that they acquire. Was I clear enough that time? illyana -- S1.3 MIL+++ RWG++# FRI++ CBG++ P&S-- f++/+++ n- $++++ 9F13, 1F22, 2F13, 3F02, 3F05, 4F01, 4F08, 4F11, 4F19 F1980 HPGCv1 a22 e+ x+* Rm Ri HP4 S+++ Mo++ HG+/VK++ HaP+/SS+++& FGW++ DM++& VC-- GG-- CD+ VK++ SS+++& PT--- AF-- MM++ RL++ O+m FAo F- Sl FHo SfD "What's the point in having a Honda if you can't show it off?" - Superintendent Chalmers visit my livejournal! http://www.livejournal.com/users/illyanadmc From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Tue Nov 12 07:54:02 2002 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 07:54:02 -0000 Subject: the DEW DROP Hands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46507 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > Dominique Medal wrote: > >The watch does not follow people. It is instead some sort of > >celestial watch. I don't know how it works, but I imagine that > >magic is heavily involved. While he may have assigned planets to > >various people, this is not supported by canon. All canon seems > >to imply is that Hagrid was supposed to be at the Dursleys' by a > >certain time, which Dumbledore can tell from his celestial watch. > > Well, Dominique we are not told what exactly this watch is. It > could be celestial, I agree. But the possibility that it could be > similar to the wizard clocks at the Weasley's house is also there. > As you pointed out, Dumbledore looked at the watch and saw that > Hagrid is late. Now he could of saw that by the time or by the > fact that Hagrid's (or Harry's) hand of the watch was pointing at > the area/planets that means the person is late. > > Either way, Dumbledore did expect Hagrid there by a certain time, > and by either watch reading he was late. > > And, I don't believe the planets are what the people are assigned. > With the Weasley clocks, the hands are assigned to the family > members. > Now Dumbledore's watch has twelve hands, so I theorize they are for > twelve different people. The planets are just a type of celestial > language that Dumbledore is reading to discover the state of the > assigned hand character. > > Hope that clears up the DEW DROP theory there for you. > Personally, my theory would be somewhat in the middle. I think the watch is an astrological watch, and that neither the hands nor the planets stand for people. Instead, I believe the watch is tuned to someone (ala the Foe Mirror), and shows an up to the minute astrological chart of that person. This presumes that Dumbledore is rather good at divination, naturally, and that the watch is easily retunable. Under this theory, the planets would be a celestial language Dumbledore would be reading, but a rather well-established, old language... --Arcum From cressida_tt at hotmail.com Tue Nov 12 08:33:29 2002 From: cressida_tt at hotmail.com (Diane) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 08:33:29 -0000 Subject: Weasley Names Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46508 Following on from some old threads regarding Weasley names. I had a couple of points to add on the subject. Bill could be short for Bilius as in the Uncle who saw the Grim and promptly died. Viginia is, as quite correctly stated, not a common English name. I wondered if Ginny could be short for Guinevere which would fit with the Arthurian parallels or more likely with Mr Weasley having seen a popular Muggle film and commited the name and sobriquet to memory! My recently deceased (over ninety) great aunt was always known as Ginny and it was only in the obit. that we found that her name was in fact Jane. Diane From larryngocnguyen at hotmail.com Tue Nov 12 10:01:01 2002 From: larryngocnguyen at hotmail.com (larryngocnguyen83) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:01:01 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter: Pampered jock, patsy, and fraud??????!!!!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46509 Everyone This jaded fool Chris Suellentrop wrote this horrible article about HArry Potter calling him "a fraud, and the cult that has risen around him is based on a lie." What do YOU guys think? http://slate.msn.com/?id=2073627 Larry Nguyen From gandharvika at hotmail.com Tue Nov 12 11:50:25 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:50:25 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Does Anybody Have A Theory? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46510 Does Anybody Have A Theory? (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Do You Want To Know A Secret?_ by the Beatles) A MIDI is here: http://www.massmarketplace.com/beatles/chrono.htm Dedicated to Revato, who asked this question in post # 46221 and to those who answered her; JOel (post #46252), Martha (#26258) and Jazmyn (#46304) See! I do pay attention to these things! :)> HP4G Listee (Thinking to herself): I wonder if this has already been discussed? I wonder if anybody's going to reply? (She sits at her computer and starts typing) Hi there! Does anybody have a theory About Peeves the Poltergeist? whoa, oh, oh Ghost or, Perhaps psychic energy >From students collectively Of Hogwarts school Not the Revenant of anything That was actually living, whoa, oh, oh Emotions Manifested physically Resulting in our friend Peeves It certainly makes sense What do you think of my analysis? Does anyone have thoughts on this? Hi there! Does anybody have a theory About Peeves the Poltergeist? whoa, oh, oh Ghost or, Perhaps psychic energy >From students collectively Of Hogwarts school (Presses "Send" button) -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From potter76 at libero.it Tue Nov 12 11:59:52 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:59:52 +0100 (ora solare Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question regarding Tom Riddle References: Message-ID: <3DD0ED38.000001.45491@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 46511 Becky: Erm. Normally I'd agree with you, but AFAICR there is no mention of anybody but Hagrid referring to LV's House. The quote with Ron comes from the CTMNBN, *not* the books. In the books, this is a clear Hagrid line. I honestly *don't* think that Ron would have any clue what House LV was in. I can imagine a "Probably in Slytherin" (said with an appropriate disgusted grimace ;-)), but I'm not ready to go all "poor, maligned Slytherin" using CTMNBN quotes. :P Me: Actually this is a very tricky issue, I've always taken for granted that LV was in Slytherin and I can't really remember what makes me so sure, I seem to recall that neither Riddle nor LV mention their house, so doesn't Dumbl the only time he tells about Lv's days at school in CoS, there's nothing in the diary memory either and I can't recall any other place in the books where it's likely that a reference to this could be made. The only canon to support this idea has been give, and Becky can relax and agree with the others because the Ron quote *comes* from the book: PS ch.6 'The journey from platform 9 and 3/4' p . 80 UK edition, it could have been retained in the movie, I don't remember 'cause I haven't seen it since last year when it came out. And there's no 'disgusted grimace' on Ron's face just a depressed look at the thought that he could end up in Slytherin ( that's what they were discussing when the reference comes up) ^_- Given this sort of ambiguity on the subject and the first name thing between Hagrid and Riddle we could be very much surprised later on, otherwise I can' t think of any other reason why JKR was so careful not to state clearly Riddle's house (unless she just likes being ambiguous!). I checked all the aforementioned episodes, so now I'm sure it says nothing about the house but I found a little bit of canon that complicates the picture ( is this English?). CoS, last chapter p. 244-245 Uk edition Harry and Dumbl are discussing Harry s likeness to LV, the very famous 'choice speech': Harry: I don't think I'm like him! ... I'm in Gryffindor then he goes on to tell about the Sorting, then Dumbl explain his theory about the transfer of powers and the traits that Harry shares with Slytherin house and please note that Dumbl refers to Salazar himself and *not* LV. All this time Dumbl has never mentioned LV, but didn't even correct Harry's belief that Riddle was a Slytherin. The only time Riddle is referred to is in replying to Harry's statement about having asked not to be put in Sl : 'Which makes you very different from Tom Riddle. It's our choice etc etc'. Which, to me, could either mean that Riddle asked to go to Sl or that at some point, whatever his house was at school, he choose evil. Harry, to whom ( but he's not the only one) Slytherin is the 'symbol' of evil, in rejecting that house in his very first day at school rejected evil at the tender age of 11. Which also means that he sort of decided to use his 'dark side' for Good, not to succumb to it as it is then proved when he spares Sirius, before, and later Peter's lives, he was able to check is hate and revengefulness. All this to say that the matter is far from being settled if we have to decided using what we have been given so far. Hope I managed to make myself understood, R. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Tue Nov 12 13:10:04 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:10:04 +0100 (CET) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter: Pampered jock, patsy, and fraud??????!!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021112131004.74417.qmail@web21509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46512 larryngocnguyen83 wrote: Everyone This jaded fool Chris Suellentrop wrote this horrible article about HArry Potter calling him "a fraud, and the cult that has risen around him is based on a lie." What do YOU guys think? http://slate.msn.com/?id=2073627 Larry Nguyen Well, the HP series is for everybody, but everybody doesn't deserve it... Iris ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From msbonsai at mninter.net Tue Nov 12 13:34:46 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:34:46 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter: Pampered jock, patsy, and fraud??????!!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46513 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "larryngocnguyen83" wrote: > Everyone > This jaded fool Chris Suellentrop wrote this horrible article about > HArry Potter calling him "a fraud, and the cult that has risen around > him is based on a lie." What do YOU guys think? > > http://slate.msn.com/?id=2073627 > > Larry Nguyen Hmm, I think you're about the 3rd person in the last few days to bring this up :o) #46322 "Interesting Article" by Jim on Fri 11/8, with replies: 46328,46329,46330,46333,46347,46332,46334,46341,46339,46343 #46372 "Hatchet job on Harry" by Edis on Sat 11/9, with replies: 0 Hope this helps :o) Julie From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Nov 12 14:26:30 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:26:30 -0000 Subject: FILK: Happy With Viktor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46514 Happy with Viktor A filk by Pippin To the tune of Happy Together by the Turtles The scene: Alone after the Yule Brawl, Ron expresses his (rather confused) feelings Imagine him and you I do, I think about it days and nights It really bites To think about the girl I know and almost like So happy with Viktor I could have asked you out For sure, if only I had seen in time That you're a girl But when I think of you with him I want to hurl It just makes me sicker I can't stand it seein' him go out with you It makes me mad When you're with him somehow it makes me so blue And I'm so sad If I could only say just how I feel You'd realize this pain inside Is something real I wouldn't have to rant and rave and tear the arms Off miniature Viktor I can't stand it seein' him go out with you I'm going mad When you're with him I just don't know what to do And I'm so sad I guess I've missed my chance It's true, no matter how I toss the dice I guess we're through He'll ask you to Bulgaria This summer, too That crummy scum Viktor I can't stand it seein' him hanging with you It's just a crime Are you telling tri-wizard secrets to him That Durmstrang slime Him and you and you and him What makes it worse is he's so nice And I'm so dim Why would you even look at me If you're with him So happy with Viktor So happy with Viktor What am I, chopped liver So happy with Viktor From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Nov 12 15:44:43 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:44:43 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat: Where does Tom Riddle belong? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46515 I have read the posts concerning Tom Riddle's house placement and wanted to put in my thoughts. As I have made clear previously, IMO, freedom of choice and the consequences of those choices are the central themes of the HP series. Having said that, I would like to go on record as saying that I believe Tom Riddle must have been in Slytherin house. Here is my reason: Tom Riddle calls himself and seems very proud of the fact that he is a descendent of Salaazar Slytherin. Now let me clarify this: I do not believe for one minute that the fact that Tom Riddle was related to Slytherin had anything to do with his placement in that house. My believe is that because Tom Riddle wished to be placed in Slytherin house- he was. This theory of mine complies exactly with what Dummbledore says to Harry about NOT wanting to be in Slytherin. Dumbledore uses this as an example of how Harry and Tom are different. IMO, the Sorting Hat would never place anyone where they did not want to go-since, IMO, the Hat obviously pays attention to the wants of the student - as in the case of Harry. I believe-and JKR has hinted-that there is more to the Sorting Hat than we suspect. bugaloo37-who believes that any student placed in Slytherin-including Tom Riddle and Draco Malfoy-never loses the option or the ability to choose to do the right thing. From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Nov 12 16:13:32 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:13:32 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Death_in_the_Wizarding_World_AND_Harry_sparing_V=92Mort?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46516 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > > Great idea - perhaps the sword Voldemort will be impaled upon will >be the recorporation potion which is presumed to be fatally flawed > because he used Harry's blood? > > ~Phyllis I too believe that Voldemort will be destroyed upon his own vanity- his inability to recognize merit or ability in others-especially those he deems unworthy-such as Lily Potter-will cause him to be careless and overlook something vital. I too believe that the use of Harry's blood will play a key role in his destruction (hence-the now infamous "gleam")- but I also believe-and hope- that something to do with Lily Potter-will play a part in his destruction as well. bugaloo37-who wishes Voldemort to know prior to his ultimate destruction, that merit/ability were responsible-not blood-lines-for his defeat. Let's hear it for Muggle-borns!!! From anne_conda at web.de Tue Nov 12 14:36:08 2002 From: anne_conda at web.de (Anne Mattigk) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:36:08 +0100 Subject: There's somthing about Trevor Message-ID: <003501c28a58$da405700$0100a8c0@wohnzimmer> No: HPFGUIDX 46517 I always wondered what the use of toads as magical pets could possibly be? I imagine they 're useful for potions.or meals, if you like it, but.I just don't know how to pet a toad, they also just seem to be deadly boring (maybe its just me who also considers her very un- magic tubby gold hamster as very boring: always filling its bags, emptying them, scratching its ears and then went back to snoring). So? Unless they are cursed princes and such, what could be the magical use (not delivering post, never being a furry snoozing cushion?). "Cursed" leads me straight into an out- of- the- blue- assumption: there could be something more about Neville's toad Trevor. I have no canon proof for that, but a few things let me ponder about this issue( BTW, I frankly don't know if "Neville's- toad- cursed?" is a new hunch, otherwise please imagine me with the reddest face ever seen): - we don't know about possible pets of other pupils in Harrys age, or even House for that matter, do we?.just Neville's pet toad is ever mentioned, isn't it?.because it has importance? - IIRC the behaviour of that certain amphibian is slightly suspicious: why it scrams from Neville (or whom else?) on several occasions? - Trevor seems not like a pet name to me, it really does not. Why not something as Toady the Toad, but a common boy's name instead? - Trevor seems to be as much dreaded of Snape (every right to be so!) as Neville is.I wonder why? I wonder why Neville takes Trevor to the lessons (I can't remember dear Crookshanks sneaking some of the tastier ingredients in Potions whilst being curled up in Hermione's lap), at all? I wonder why Snape seems to have in mind to kill Neville's toad off.hm. - It seems unlikely to me that ONE pet is without any meaning, especially endearing Trevor: Scrabbers (BTW, were rats accepted at Hogwarts? I'm not sure about that.so? How was Scrabbers allowed to been brought to Hogwarts? And why aren't pets as gold fishes, gold hamsters and Golden Retrievers most probably not accepted?.I see, I see, that's another unimportant issue, sorry.) was an animus, as we all know, Crookshanks is most likely a Kneazle (part- Kneazle, that is), Hedwig, well that' s a wholly different post, I have some assumptions for that one.sooo? What's up with Trevor, if there's something up. Well, as I mentioned above- I think Trevor is - No!- not a cursed prince, but someone cursed. Damn my lack of imagination, I have no clue who it could be.maybe a friend of Neville and he - as almost ever- don't know about it? Heavens, this just bugs me. What's about Trevor, any thoughts? .annie who is never going to be tempted eating a warty toad, but would get along very well with a yummy chocolate frog. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 12 16:35:05 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:35:05 -0000 Subject: the watch, Catlady, and Filch TBAY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46518 Acrum wrote: > Personally, my theory would be somewhat in the middle. I think the > watch is an astrological watch, and that neither the hands nor the > planets stand for people. Instead, I believe the watch is tuned to > someone (ala the Foe Mirror), and shows an up to the minute > astrological chart of that person. *small snip* > > Under this theory, the planets would be a celestial language > Dumbledore would be reading, but a rather well-established, old > language... Ok I'm following you. That way Dumbledore could tune his watch to look after Harry at sometimes and, let's say, Snape others. Hmmm, an interesting possibility. I am not *at all* familiar with how the plants and 12 houses work in divination, but it seems to be complicated enough to where the readings of the hands and planets could be mixed to form a prediction/truth about the person. A little more complicated than just time reading in any case. I personally like the twelve hands: twelve people idea myself, naturally, since the canon alludes to the hands being people in the other two wizard clocks in the series, but I think yours is a likely possibility. The main goal of my watch theory was to say it keeps Dumbledore abreast of Harry's life, and yours covers that. -------- And Catlady wrote: Melody wrote: << So my question is what does "at the moon?" mean? >> >I was making a little, intended to be harmless, joke about "baying at >the Moon", which is what wolves do, but I didn't have a reply to Grey >Wolf to attach it to. Sorry. No, I took it harmless, I just completely glazed over the incredibly obvious joke. I was separating the "to the moon?" part and not reading the TBAY part with it. Sorry. :) Thanks for explaining it though. I quite liked it. :) Oh and happy to see you here on a weekday Catlady. ----------- Frankie composed: >After shouting a hasty thanks, Melody plucked the tail-coat out of >the air. A string of initials on the discreet designer's label >caught her eye. "F.R.I.E.N.D.S.G.O.I.N.G.N.U.T.S." she read out >loud. "Hmm... I get it! Filtch Rightly Incensed at Evil Nasty Dirt >in School Gets Obstinate Insists Non-Magicals Gain New Untold Talents > & Spells." I tried and tried to think of a clever, adorable TBAY to accept your fine gift last night, but alas, all I can say is... -- "Gee, Frankie," Melody cried after her. "Thank you so much. I feel so honored." Looking at the soaked tail-coat, Melody decided she better hurry it down to Sneeky. This may be a Filch theory, but he alone can have the honor of wearing a moldy one. -- Maybe soon we can throw that PIG room party and invite some other TBAY'ers to hit around the theory pi?ata. Seems TBAY could need an excuse to relax a little and let their hair down. Melody From heidi at barefootpuppets.com Tue Nov 12 17:52:47 2002 From: heidi at barefootpuppets.com (barefootpuppets) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:52:47 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's "gleam" revisited Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46519 I had the most interesting thought today in the shower (place of great thoughts)... We know from Dumbledore's comments at the end of GoF, that Harry is protected by some more "old magic" while he is in the care of his relatives. Voldemort confesses that he is unable to touch him there. We can infer that Voldemort has a touch of tunnel vision in his pursuit of immortality (i.e. when he forgets about the possible protective properties of Lily's sacrifice). It would seem that, in his pursuit of power and the dark arts, that Voldemort doesn't look deeply into the protective arts. WHAT IF...this "old magic" that protects Harry has a bit more behind it. Perhaps "in the care of his relatives" could also translate to "in the care of those who share his blood." COULD IT BE that Voldemort is now, in some magical sense, a blood- relative of Harry's? Voldemort was, after all, unable to kill Harry during their duel. In fact, all of his death eaters were likewise thwarted. Since Harry was brought via portkey to Voldemort at Voldemort's bidding, it could be that this made Harry "in the care of Voldemort" who called him. Perhaps Voldemort is unaware of some of the total ramifacations of this "old magic" placed by Dumbledore. Perhaps...Voldemort Is Thwarted As Magic Is Nullified By Old Magic By- product??? VITAMIN BOMB, anyone? Heidi R. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Tue Nov 12 18:31:56 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:31:56 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter: Pampered jock, patsy, and fraud??????!!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9241480521.20021112103156@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46520 Tuesday, November 12, 2002, 2:01:01 AM, larryngocnguyen83 wrote: l> This jaded fool Chris Suellentrop wrote this horrible article about l> HArry Potter calling him "a fraud, and the cult that has risen around l> him is based on a lie." What do YOU guys think? I agree with those who have speculated that "Chris Suellentrop" is a _nom de plume_, and the that the chap's real name is Severus Snape. :) -- Dave From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Tue Nov 12 18:39:08 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:39:08 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: the watch, Catlady, and Filch TBAY References: Message-ID: <3DD14ACC.C7E8837D@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46521 I liked to think Dumbledore's watch is a digital one, with scrolling magical text that tells him where anyone he is currently concerned about meeting is? He could have any number of people in it, being the busy person he is. Doesn't specifically mention anywhere that his watch has hands (or feet, tails, tentacles, etc.) Doesn't say if he owns more then one watch either, as someone that old is apt to have other ones he acquired over time. Never always assume the old guy has only old fashion things. I suspect Dumbledore keeps up with the times pretty well. Jazmyn From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Tue Nov 12 19:04:10 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:04:10 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] There's somthing about Trevor References: <003501c28a58$da405700$0100a8c0@wohnzimmer> Message-ID: <3DD150AA.C88DD446@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46522 Hard to say what other pets students had. Note only the FIRST YEAR letter said 'Students may also bring an owl OR a cat OR a toad'. Since its not part of the other years letters, maybe they are allowed other animals? Perhaps Ron's rat was acceptable due to being 'small' and was not considered a problem... or he kept Scabbers well hidden from the staff all the time, being as some of the staff 'might' recognize he wasn't really a rat in some way. Dumbledore certainly knew Sirius when he saw him as a dog. One would guess that other small pets were tolerated and the staff just ignored them unless they got into trouble. I could only see Filch or Snape making an issue of a pet that wasn't on the list, then only to scare the student more. For all of the allowing of owls, toads and cats, we see the majority have owls and there are few mentioned toads or cats around. One would think that some of the staff would have pets, other then Dumbledore's Phoenix and Filch's cat. I could see Prof Sprout as having some sort of affectionate plant, like a big Venus Fly Trap? Maybe Snape has a raven, a black cat... or a hamster named 'Poofles' that none will EVER know about and live to tell. ;) Jazmyn From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue Nov 12 19:25:40 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:25:40 -0000 Subject: There's somthing about Trevor In-Reply-To: <003501c28a58$da405700$0100a8c0@wohnzimmer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46523 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Anne Mattigk" wrote: > Well, as I mentioned above- I think Trevor is - No!- not a cursed prince, but someone cursed. Damn my lack of imagination, I have no clue who it could be.maybe a friend of Neville and he - as almost ever- don't know about it? Heavens, this just bugs me. > > > > What's about Trevor, any thoughts? Trevor has at times on this list been proposed to be 1. Trevor Lestrange, who put his evil soul in the toad, explaining why he is staring blankly at Crouch Sr. in the Pensieve scene. You see, his soul is gone and he's going to use his proximity to Neville to help Voldemort to power. 2. Trevor holds the souls of the Longbottoms, and either 1) Gran and Uncle Algie are hoping that Neville will save his parents in some way by sending Trevor to school with him or 2) Gran and Uncle Algie are trying to permanently off Frank and his wife for the Longbottom money. This usually goes with Death Eater Gran. For more information, contact Cindy on the Big Bang Destroyer. Eileen From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 12 19:37:39 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:37:39 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Lily's_Role_in_Voldemort's_Final_Defeat_(WAS:_Harry_sparing_V=92Mort)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46524 bugaloo37 wrote: > I too believe that the use of Harry's blood will play a key role in > his destruction (hence-the now infamous "gleam")- but I also > believe-and hope- that something to do with Lily Potter-will play a > part in his destruction as well. Now me: I also think something to do with Lily will play a role in Voldemort's final defeat, and I think that "something" has to do with the gorgeous green eyes Harry inherited from her. Here's a snip from an interview in support of this theory: BBC: "Now, can I ask you: are there any special wizarding powers in your world that depend on the wizard using their eyes to do something? Bit like..." JKR: "Why do you want to know this?" BBC: "I just vaguely wondered." JKR: "Why?" BBC: "Well because everyone always goes on about how Harry's got Lily Potter's eyes?" JKR: "Aren't you smart? There is something, maybe, coming about that. I'm going to say no more. Very clever." And the link: http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/Fall_2000_BBC_Newsround.htm So my guess is that Harry's inner wandless magical power will somehow be directed through his Lily eyes and will contribute to Voldemort's final defeat. Along with the fatally flawed recorporation potion that relied on Harry's blood. ~Phyllis From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 12 19:54:51 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:54:51 -0000 Subject: *the* watch isn't digital In-Reply-To: <3DD14ACC.C7E8837D@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46525 Jazmyn said: > Doesn't specifically mention anywhere that his watch has > hands (or feet, tails, tentacles, etc.) Doesn't say if he owns more > then one watch either, as someone that old is apt to have other ones > he acquired over time. > > Never always assume the old guy has only old fashion things. I > suspect Dumbledore keeps up with the times pretty well. Ok Jasmyn, the watch I am questioning is the one Dumbledore pulls out of his pocket on Privet Drive. From the text: Started from PS/SS Ch1: "...as he took a golden watch from his packet and examined it. It was a very odd watch. It had twelve *hands* but no numbers; instead, little planets were moving around the edge." [I, of course, added the asterisks] It does mention that the watch has hands. Twelve in fact. Now he may have a digital one scurried away in one of his other pockets, but the one I was questioning was this watch. And I don't think Dumbledore has this watch because it is old fashion in style. In fact, I would say it is rather advance from our modern view of watches therefore making his watch a futuristic novelty. He is quite squirrelly for an old chap. Melody From htfulcher at comcast.net Tue Nov 12 20:53:53 2002 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:53:53 -0000 Subject: Question re The Riddle House Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46526 Forgive me for this as I'm sure it _must_ have been discussed at length before. My wife and I are now both on our fourth read of the canon (for me this is since last Christmas, JRK hurry!). In Chamber of Secrets Tom Riddle speaks of living in the orphanage because his muggle father turned him and his mother out when he discovered she was a witch. He also indicates that after Hogwarts he disappeared (figuratively speaking) so that no one later realized that Riddle and He Who Must Not be Named were one and the same person. In Goblet of Fire the deaths at the Riddle House included the elderly Mr & Mrs Riddle and their grown up son, Tom. Question: Is this a Flint? Are we to assume that the Tom Riddle of CoS, because the distillation of his 15 year old self, could only assume what he would do after leaving the school (the manner in which the Diary was made and the potential personality limitations on the TR who occupies its pages itself is thought provoking)? Further, it seems the old saw that You Know Who is ALWAYS the antagonist in HP books doesn't hold for CoS. Sure TR is the trouble maker, but LM is the instigator. (I know I'm going to sound like a dottering old fool for saying this but...) are LM's motives for the diary truly clear in CoS? Did he intend revenge againt Harry, revenge against the Weasley's? Revenge against m*dbl##ds at the school? Was he somehow following He Who Must Not Be Named's wishes (Imperius Curse)? -- although this latter one strikes me as highly unlikely. Again, forgive if this has been discussed before (and more so if the FAQ, etc., cover it in detail). Remember reading those books four times in a year is hard if you're tring to hold down a job and have a meaningful muggle life on the side, too! Thanks for any enlightenment on this ("Lumo!") MarEphraim From bkb042 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 12 21:01:46 2002 From: bkb042 at yahoo.com (Brian) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:01:46 -0000 Subject: Will Dumbledore give Voldemort the finger? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46527 I've been sketchily following the "fatally flawed potion" thread, and while I think that this line of thought is significant, I believe that we're a little off track with it. How's this for a new spin? Pettigrew's role in the recorporation was the "willing" donation of his hand. More specifically, his RIGHT hand. The one with the missing finger. Ron told Harry that "You know what Pettigrew's mother got back after Black had finished with him? Dad told me---The Order of Merlin, First class, and Pettigrew's finger in a box." The significance of this should be apparent. Dumbledore now has access to the important ingredients specific to Voldemort's recorporation potion. Perhaps retrieving the finger, and some "bone of the father", is what Snape was tasked to do. After all, he IS the potions master! (He might also enjoy getting some of Harry's blood, too!) What do y'all think? Brian From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 12 21:03:14 2002 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:03:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Question re The Riddle House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021112210314.28214.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46528 --- marephraim wrote: > In Goblet of Fire the deaths at the Riddle House included the > elderly Mr & Mrs Riddle and their grown up son, Tom. > > Question: Is this a Flint? Are we to assume that the Tom Riddle of > CoS, because the distillation of his 15 year old self, could only > assume what he would do after leaving the school (the manner in > which the Diary was made and the potential personality limitations > on the TR who occupies its pages itself is thought provoking)? I'm not sure exactly what your question is, but it is NOT a Flint that Tom Riddle died at the Riddle house. Remember, young Tom Marvolo Riddle was named after his father and grandfather, so his father's name was also Tom Riddle. The people killed at the Riddle house were TMR/Voldemort's grandparents and father. This question gets recycled every few months, it seems. :) Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From htfulcher at comcast.net Tue Nov 12 21:16:32 2002 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:16:32 -0000 Subject: There's somthing about Trevor In-Reply-To: <3DD150AA.C88DD446@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46529 jazmyn wrote: > > Hard to say what other pets students had. Note only the FIRST YEAR > letter said 'Students may also bring an owl OR a cat OR a toad'. MarEphraim comments: Of course, the question of the "owl or a cat or a toad" in re Ron's rat and Neville's toad has arisen often (even I have been around long enough to notice the number of times it gets brought up). Comment: In Symbolic Logic and the English Philosophy of the last century (you remember, Betrand Russell et al.) there is a fine logical/grammatical distinction between a conjunction and a disjunction. In a conjunction (It is sunny [p] and the birds are singing [q]) both parts ('p' and 'q') must be true for the conjunction ('p and q') to be true. This is considered a 'strong' truth requirement. In a disjunction (It is sunny [p] or it is cloudy [q]) only one of the parts of the disjunction ('p', 'q') need be true for the whole disjunction to be true. You can think up examples where both parts _can_ be true, but onle one _must_ be true.) Now the interesting thing (to those of us offbeat enough to follow such things) is that a disjunction can accept any number of additional alternatives through a rule called addition ('p or q' may be expanded to be 'p or q or r or s... etc.'). This can be accomplished at will, whereas to add an alternative 'r' to a conjunction 'p and q' requires a much more stringent verification of truth. This is because all parts of a conjunction must be true for validity, while the truth value of any one or more parts of a disjunction automatically assigns an overall truth value to the disjunction. Those of you patient enough (or bemused enough) to have read this far will see where I'm going with this one: The "Students may also bring an owl OR a cat OR a toad" statement need not necessarily be viewed as limiting the pets that students bring to only the listed species (doesn't Lee Jordan have a tarantula?). MarEphraim (really needing to slow down on the coffee these days!) From htfulcher at comcast.net Tue Nov 12 21:21:51 2002 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:21:51 -0000 Subject: Question re The Riddle House In-Reply-To: <20021112210314.28214.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46530 Andrea wrote: > I'm not sure exactly what your question is, but it is NOT a Flint that Tom Riddle died at the Riddle house. Remember, young Tom Marvolo Riddle was named after his father and grandfather, so his father's name was also Tom Riddle. The people killed at the Riddle house were TMR/Voldemort's grandparents and father. ME: That may answer the question I was trying to phrase. The deaths in GoF are the Dark Lord's grandparents and father? Is this clarified to be so in canon? Thanks for the answer though! MarEphraim From the.gremlin at verizon.net Tue Nov 12 21:29:50 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:29:50 -0000 Subject: There's somthing about Trevor In-Reply-To: <3DD150AA.C88DD446@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46531 jazmyn wrote: "Hard to say what other pets students had. Note only the FIRST YEAR letter said 'Students may also bring an owl OR a cat OR a toad'. Since its not part of the other years letters, maybe they are allowed other animals? Perhaps Ron's rat was acceptable due to being 'small' and was not considered a problem... or he kept Scabbers well hidden from the staff all the time, being as some of the staff 'might' recognize he wasn't really a rat in some way. Dumbledore certainly knew Sirius when he saw him as a dog." Well, the question of Ron's rat has been debated, I don't know what the general theory was. However, Dumbledore knowing Sirius on site, well, there is the possibility that he KNEW that WPP were Animagi. So he might have known already Sirius was the black dog. Or perhaps when Dumbledore was in contact with Sirius during GoF, Sirius told him that he was an Animagi, and his form was a big black dog. Besides, even the pet shop proprieter thought Scabbers was a reall rat, and not even a magical one. One would think that she of all people could tell the difference. Also, it has been brought up that Hermione doesn't drag Crookshanks everywhere, so Trevor is special in that way. If she dragged Crookshanks everywhere, I'm sure we would have gotten the comment "why, how extraordianry, your cat is half-kneazel!" Of course, the pet shop proprieter may not have known that, either. Which contradicts my previous statement about Scabbers. Oh well, there's some ideas. "One would guess that other small pets were tolerated and the staff just ignored them unless they got into trouble. I could only see Filch or Snape making an issue of a pet that wasn't on the list, then only to scare the student more." Hence Trevor. "For all of the allowing of owls, toads and cats, we see the majority have owls and there are few mentioned toads or cats around." Lee Jordan had a tarantula in SS/PS. Though I don't know if that was just for fun, or if he had it as his pet. I don't see the point of having a cat or a toad, though, except for fun. Even Hagrid said "Owls are dead useful" (in SS/PS. And as far as I know, none of Harry's friends seems to have an owl, except Percy and Ron. "One would think that some of the staff would have pets, other then Dumbledore's Phoenix and Filch's cat. I could see Prof Sprout as having some sort of affectionate plant, like a big Venus Fly Trap? Maybe Snape has a raven, a black cat... or a hamster named 'Poofles' that none will EVER know about and live to tell. ;)" I put forth the theory that he owned a fluffy white cat, or a white cat named "Fluffy", I don't remember which, though. A hamster named "Poofles" is just as good, though. Perhaps funnier, because...hamsters are funny. In reality, I could see him having a raven, though. -Acire, who wonders how the WW would feel about my fish, He-Who-Has- No-Name. From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue Nov 12 21:30:07 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:30:07 -0000 Subject: TBAY - Redemption Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46532 George has just parked the car at the Scenic Viewpoint overlooking Theory Bay. In the distance, the lights of the beachfront town that has recently sprung up on the shores of the Bay were twinkling. Smoke signals were coming from the chimney of the Safe House. George tries to ease his arm about Eileen's shoulder. "So you see redemption is crucial to the Harry Potter books." "What did you say, baby?" he asks, lazily running his hand through her hair. "Honestly, George, have you been listening to a word I've said? I've been telling you... OUCH!" "Sorry." "My hair's tangly enough without you getting your fingers stuck in it," says Eileen, wriggling out of the arm he had about her back. George looks confused. Women weren't supposed to be immune to his charms. Well, there was Elkins, but except for that sad exception, he had always charmed the women of Theory Bay. "You said you wanted me to teach you something about redemption," says Eileen testily. "I was speaking figuratively," says George, sighing. "You ought to be interested," says Eilen sharply. "You are a redemption theory, when you think about it." George's face changes. All the charm and langour of Womanizer!George disappears, and George, the most brilliant of Snapetheories, sits upright and looks at Eileen seriously. "For the last few months, George, Cindy has been discrediting every theory I come up with by labelling it as a redemption theory. She told me the other day that I had a real thing for redemption theories, as if that was a bad thing to have." "This from the woman whose every theory is calculated for relative banginess?" asks George. "She objects to using an ideology to filter one's theories?" "Tell me about it," says Eileen. "She seems to have forgotten the genesis of the Big Bang theory. You see, our detractors have always said that we of the Big Bang are only planning bloody ambushes, earthshaking revelations, and massive plot twists because we like that sort of thing, that there is nothing in the text to suggest that Hagrid comes from a background of wholesale in-family slaughter (to take an example), but Cindy actually had a very good reason for the Big Bang theory, one that has been obscured by her later capers." "There isn't much reasoning for the Big Bang theory..." begins George sniffily. "Oh, George, you're biased! We all know that Big Bang was founded after Cindy said you were boring, and she wanted a Snapetheory that would give the books a big bang." "And you've never sorted out your loyalties between me and the Big Bang theory," begins George accusingly. "But George, I think I'm in good company there. I'm with JKR. Cindy justified the Big Bang theory by pointing out that JKR so far does seem to have a taste for Big Bangish scenes, not slow and steady revelations and transformations." "Snape did not wake up one morning, and have a sudden crisis of nerves provoked by the very gruesome murder of one of the Old Gang," says George sternly. "If you start telling me that sort of thing, you can get out of the car and walk home." "Don't be defensive, George darling," says Eileen. "I stand behind every word of the Sweet Georgian Credo. I believe that "Snape Went Evil Expecting To Gloat, Eyes Open, Recanted Gradually, Incensed At Nauseating Iniquities and Shocking Morals" but you have to admit that JKR has a definite taste for the Big Bang scenes!" "I don't have to admit anything that doesn't directly concern Severus's Snape's Death Eater career," says George sulkily. "Good!" says Eileen. "Then, let's talk about Redemption. I'm stuck on Redemption for the same reason that Cindy's stuck on Big Bangs. JKR seems to have a definite taste for it. And you're Exhibit #1, George. The redemption of Severus Snape." "Yes, I suppose that is the case," says George, with a thin-lipped smile. "Snape does seem redeemed. Not in a Big Bang way of course, and if it's in any way comparable to the Road to Damascus, the emphasis is on following the Road not the apparition near the end of it. You do know that we've been disturbed by Rowling's remarks on the subject, though." "About her being shocked at the question as to whether Snape had a redemption thing going on?" "Yes, we've never been able to figure out," says George with a frown "whether she was referring to Snape being redeemed or Snape falling in love, or to the combination of the two. The last option of course would shock her, as it shocks me. Redemption through love is just a little worse than Hurt-Comfort, though a bit better than Comfort-Hurt." George winks roguishly at Eileen. "Stop it," says Eileen. "What will the newbies think?" "That aside, Snape seems to be living out a redemption narrative. But, of course, as the list's offical defender of reason and logic, I must warn you that Snape's redemption is not enough for you to insist that JKR is fixated on redemption." "But there's Crouch." "Ah, Crouch, of course," says George with a smile. "Crouch's final appearance is indeed presented as a redemption scene. Cindy says it's all a trick, I believe." "Oh yes, she does, but it fits into the pattern I'm saying exists. If I can find enough instances of the pattern, she'll have to acknowledge it." "Do you have any other instances?" asks George. "Well... I was thinking that we could work something out with Avery." "Eileen, as much as I like Avery, he doesn't really exist in the books. The man you know as Avery is HPFGU's creation, not JKR's. JKR's Avery is probably a pitiful toadie with no personality. So, you can't claim that he has a redemption narrative. Anyone else?" "Peter Pettigrew." "Not yet, Eileen, not yet." "But it's going that way, isn't it?" "A lot of people don't see it." "Smeagol or Wormtongue. Either way he's bringing Voldemort down. And why do you think JKR expressed surprise at Snape being fingered as being in the process of being redeemed, and said we'd know why she was surprised by the seventh book? Because Snape really has already been redeemed. The seventh book will feature Pettigrew's redemption." "Do you think Pettigrew is a Georgian?" asks George thoughtfully. "Hmmm... I have my doubts. He might have a Big Bangish redemption. And he probably didn't have his eyes open joining the Death Eaters." "Oh well," says George. "What next?" "Dudley Dursley," says Eileen. "Cindy scoffs but what else can JKR mean, by talking about how she loves Dudley as well, considers him abused, and there's things coming with the Dursleys that people aren't expecting?" "Anyone else?" "I really don't know..." begins Eileen. "How about Draco Malfoy?" "Draco Malfoy will not be redeemed," says Eileen. "People are going to kill you for that one," says George. "Well, it's just that I don't think she can redeem Draco and Dudley, and I think it's obvious she's going for Dudley." "That's your personal opinion. Do you have any more "evidence?" "Not right now. I desperately need more canon." "Well, if you're quite finished," says George, edging over on the bench. I'd like you to teach me a little something about redemption, in a figurative sort of way." Eileen From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Nov 12 21:39:32 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:39:32 -0000 Subject: Bringin' In My Reign (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46533 Bringin' In My Reign To the tune of Singin' in the Rain Dedicated to Debbie (fellow history buff) THE SCENE: Knockturn Alley, during a heavy downpour. Enter LORD VOLDEMORT, with a raincoat, umbrella and galoshes, dancing merrily about after hearing the latest news from JKR VOLDEMORT Do-de-do-do-do-a-do-vra Do-de-do-do-do-a-do-vra Do-de-do-do-do-a-do-vra She's bringin' in my reign Just bringin' in my reign All my hideous dealings Are happ'nin' again Jo's sayin' Book Five Is just about penned And one character Meets a horrible end Let my Death Eaters fight 'Cause my heart's feelin' light Awaitin' the scene That Jo found hard to write I've a curse causing pain To drive Aurors insane She's bringin', Jo's bringin'in my reign Dancing for my reign Cru-Cru-Cru-Cru-cio Strike Harry again! I'm dancin' and singin' on his grave (VOLDEMORT conjures up a tombstone with the name Harry Potter engraved upon it, and vigorously tap dances before it during the lengthy orchestral bridge - after which he notices that Albus Dumbledore has been watching him all along. Somewhat embarrassed, he slinks off as quickly as dignity will permit..... ) I'm dancin' and singin' on his grave - CMC (sometimes, but usually not quite as mean as Voldemort) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated today with 49 new filks, 29 of them Beatles-derived) From the.gremlin at verizon.net Tue Nov 12 21:46:54 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:46:54 -0000 Subject: Will Dumbledore give Voldemort the finger? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46534 Brian wrote: "I've been sketchily following the "fatally flawed potion" thread, and while I think that this line of thought is significant, I believe that we're a little off track with it. How's this for a new spin?" Oh, yes, new spin. We like new spins (and when I say 'we', I mean the royal 'we'). "Pettigrew's role in the recorporation was the "willing" donation of his hand. More specifically, his RIGHT hand. The one with the missing finger. Ron told Harry that "You know what Pettigrew's mother got back after Black had finished with him? Dad told me---The Order of Merlin, First class, and Pettigrew's finger in a box." The significance of this should be apparent. Dumbledore now has access to the important ingredients specific to Voldemort's recorporation potion. Perhaps retrieving the finger, and some "bone of the father", is what Snape was tasked to do. After all, he IS the potions master! (He might also enjoy getting some of Harry's blood, too!)" Okay, first things first: why would you keep a finger? That's just...morbid. However, the theory as a whole is a new spin, and it's so much better than the "Snape went back to V-Mort to spy for DD" theory. However, would retrieving a dead, decaying finger and the "bone" of V-Mort's father cause Snape to look paler than usual (is that even possible) and his eyes to glitter strangely? Snape doesn't seem to be that squeamish. Of course, it could be the thought of getting caught by V-Mort that scares him. If you want to go along with the MAGIC DISHWASHER theory, of which I know little about, then DD had planned for V-Mort to use the potion, so he already planned to retrieve the finger. I think that's how it works. Oh, and he planned with Snape beforehand. "What do y'all think?" I like, like I said, it IS a new spin. However, other people know more about MAGIC DISHWAHER and PRESSURE COOKER than I do. So they might have more to say. I do have a question, though. How would people describe the way Snape looks when he is sent on his mission? Does paler than usual and eyes glittering strangely mean scared, nervous, anxious? -Acire, who wants to put forth the little-known theory that Snape doesn't actually have eyeballs and that there are gemstones in his sockets. That's why they glitter and flash. And they're magical, too. From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Nov 12 22:13:38 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:13:38 -0000 Subject: TBAY: extra canon for safe house/MAGIC DISHWASHER and elf rights revisited Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46535 Melody was in her room in the safe house, nursing a splitting headache after her unfortunate encounter with a grumpy old tree in a road of TBAY. Although the previous day she had been able to get up and even walk around a bit, this particular morning she wasn't feeling as well. Deciding that she could use a little pampering, she rang the bell Pip had left beside her bed to call for Sneaky. "Sneaky, be a dear and bring me the breakfast to the bed today", she told the elf almost inmediately, since -as always- Sneaky had arrived within seconds of the call "I'm going to take it easy, no gain in rushing into anything today, my head feels a bit worse for the wear" "Yes, Ma'am. Right now, Ma'am. Don't you go hurt yourself" said Sneaky before leaving as noiselessly as she had arrived. Ten minutes later, Melody was wondering what could've happened to Sneaky: she normally didn't take this long, but a heavy creaking coming from the corridor informed her that someone *heavier* than Sneaky was coming, and a delicius smell from that general direction told her that her breakfast was involved in it somehow. She wondered who could be that heavy: since the safe house had been designed with people like Grey Wolf in mind, heavy creaking wasn't normal, especially since trolls normally don't make good spies. A polite knock in the door after, Melody gave her permission to enter, and on the other side of the door was the Grey Wolf in his werewolf form, carrying a tray overload with steaming plates and a suspicious-looking bottle on his left hand and with two heavy-looking cannons on his other. The whole thing must have weight a few pounds short of 500. Little wonder the floor had been complaining under the weight! "Hi, Mel" said Grey Wolf while carefully crossing the door trying not to scrape the sides with the canons while keeping the tray from spilling, "I catched Sneaky just before she left with your breakfast, and since I was coming to see you anyway I decided I might as well help Sneaky out. Not seing you this morning, I thought you might want a few things that might cheer you up" "Thanks, Grey, you're a dear. I am definetely not feeling very well this morning, to tell the truth. I could really use a little cheering up" She told the grey lumbering form while he carefully deposited the canons on the flor and arranged the breakfast, unfolding the legs of the tray so Melody could eat confortably off it. "First thing first, Mel, Meg sent a packet with this medicine for headaches", said Grey Wolf pointing at the colorful bottle, "and explicit instructions on how to use it. I've left the note under it. The first dosis, if you want to try it out (and I would recomend it, Meg knows quite a bit 'bout medicine) is just after breakfast." "Thanks, I think I'll try it. Now, will you please get to the point and tell me were you've found those cannons? I am besides myself with interest, and evading the issue like that is cruel!" "Sorry, Mel, but your health is a priority, and when I start to think on a theory, I tend to loose track of the time. Now, if you'll allow me to get confortable" said Grey Wolf while sitting cross-legged on the floor, so his head was about as high as Mel's, "let me start. The first canon (the Black one) really belongs to the safe house: it's a little tidbit I haven't seen examined closely before; the second I'll probably keep it in my room, it's relevant to an old theory of mine -previous to your time, and even to the safe house, IIRC- and I always feel that old theories should be resurrected after some time, so they can get a good dusting. Anyway, starting with the first canon: As you know, the safe house and our particular variant, MAGIC DISHWASHER, are built on the fact that both sides use spies in the information/terrorist war that's going on between the MoM, Deatheaters and the Old Gang. Now, while reviewing the canons down at the armory the other day, I found this little jewel that packs quite a punch: (GoF, ch 14, Sp. Ed, Sirius letter, liberally translated) "Harry: I leave right now for the North. The news that your scar has been hurting has added to a series of strange rumours that have reached me here. If it hurst again, go directly to Dumbledore. I have been told that he has taken Mad-Eye from his retirement, which means that at least he is aware of the clues, even if he's the only one" Now, the last part is clearly confirmation of safe house foundations, but that's not what I'm most interested in. The letter itself is deliberately vague, since Sirius fears it might be intercepted. He mentions that he "has been told that Dumbledore...". I truth, it was probably Dumbledore himself who told him - we learn that he's been in contact with him since PoA at the end of GoF, but probably fears that Dumbledore's position might be compromised if it's discovered that he has been exchanging letters with a known murderer who has escaped from Azkaban. However, even more intriguing is that very first comment: " a series of of strange rumours that have reached me here". We know that Sirius is in some tropical paradise, with huge multicoloured birds. What kind of rumour would arrive there? Voldemort was probably a world problem 13 years ago, but he has been lying low for quite a while, and he never attacked anything outside Europe, so it's not as if all sort of believable wild rumours would be floating about him. Besides, we know that Voldemort had not been doing anything out of the ordinary anyway: he had been bidding his time. The only thing that might have reached Sirius directly would've been the disturbances at the World Cup, but I don't think that would be all of it. Of course, DEs attacking muggles and fleeing the Mark would be strange in itself, but I cannot imagine that to be all, since if that didn't send him running for Harry at the time, a good month or two later the news would be stale. So what are those rumours, then? This is where it gets interesting: Sirius cannot be passively gathering the info: any rumour that reaches him by ear-to-mouth is going to be blown out of all proportion almost for sure, since he's in a country were the UK WW authorities cannot reach him, mush less a coherent account of what might be going on there. So, how did he get hold of rumours that -strange or not- are believable enough to pile with Harry's scar and send him running into the most dangerous place he can go to? Unfortunately, we don't get to know, but that's not where I'm aiming. I'm proposing that, in fact, Sirius has been *actively gathering* information since he hurriedly left the country. I have this urge to picture him as the big guy that rattles WW informers and gets the moving once again. At the very least, he seems to have stablished a chain of informers that are able to reach him even in his hiding place and bring him info that he can trust enough to act upon (notice that the letter implies that Harry's scar pain wouldn't have been enough to put him into motion; he probably would've just informed Dumbledore, who is, after all, closer to hand). As you know, MAGIC DISHWASHER doesn't try to outguess JKR except by difidently proposing extrapolations that are in no way intended to take as articles of faith. Thus, I am adding one more: that Sirius may very well be in charge of part of the information gathering of Dumbledore now that he is outside Azkaban. He could very well use both his fame for being a Voldemort follower AND a known brutal and merciless asassin to make speak people who would normally wouldn't *think* of double-crossing Voldemort or any of his Deatheaters. As I see it, those close-mouthed come in two variants: the ones that are scared of what the DEs might do to them (which would be scared of what *Sirius the DE Asassin* might do to them), and those who picture themselves as part of the organization (sympathizers of the DE ideals that might not know that Sirius is not one of them). The basic theory of terrorist organizations believes that those are two most common types of people with inside information of a secret organization: the scared into submission and the sympathizer, and both are reachable by Sirius at this point. Note that I'm making no move on his position *before* the fateful night, but a chief of spies is never above suspicion of spying himself, so it's not off the mark why even Dumbledore was ready to speak against him. However, at that point, Sirius wasn't anywhere as effective as information gatherer as he could be now, as I've said." Grey Wolf gradually reached to a stop, after his long explanation. Mel's tray had long been finished, and she had even taken the medicine. Her headache was improving, in fact thanks to the medicine -she mused- but also because she was getting intrigued by the theory, and she had forgotten about the pain. "I'm sorry It has been so long. I'm probably boring you to death, and I should leave you to rest. I can always explain you my second canon when you're feeling better" "Nonesense and other coments, Grey!", answered Mel "I'm feeling perfectly all right, and your theories help me to take my mind away from the pain. Please, do continue. Besides, I don't mind company, whatever the reason for being here" "OK, if you insist. The second canon is, as I've said, relevant to the Elf rights discussion this list had a while back. I was known to be an active participant, but strangely enough, no acronym stuck the way it has happened in safe house-related discussions (except ENSLAVEMENT, which was a pretty shacky argument to start with). In fact, the discussion got to the point where me and my contender, Ama, bored everyone to death and moved into private ground. At any rate, my four basic theories can be found at #39292, and I'm sure you can find a copy at the house's library. My view have been refined since them, so I'm willing to give anyone a run for his money if they pick up the gauntelet and try to counter my arguments (as shocking as it may sound, I am *against* Hermione's campaign of elf liberation, but I'm not going to express my arguments here since I'm keeping you up long enough). At any rate, one of the basic problems is that many people seem to be against Hermione's SPEW, including Hagrid, Percy and the elves themselves. Now, Percy and Hagrid have, in the past, been brushed off as "ignorant" (Hagrid) and "close-sighted" (Percy). The elves themselves have been said to be "brainwashed". And then, they bring out the single other person that has expresed some sort of pro-elf rights ideas: Arthur Weasley, who said he "agreed with Hermione". Now, before I ramble off some tangent, let me say that the cannon I have found is a fourth participant, with extensive knowledge of the world, who also oposes Hermione's ideas: Nearly Headless Nick, who in GoF's sorting ceremony informs Hermione of the fact that Hogwarts uses the services of house elves, and then informs her that the elves don't want holidays or pensions. My memory might be a little loose after all this time, but I don't remember anyone bringing him out into the discussion. Now, I'm sure someone in TBAY or outside will be able to find something wrong with Nick's ideas, so I think I'm going to cut it short here, Mel, and I'll go and store this elf cannon in my theory room. After, I'll supose I'll wait for anyone who'd like to face me in an enjoyable contest of wills over that matter (or any other, really). I know I haven't been able to go out into the Bay lately, but I think I'll try and find the time this time, just in case. Oh, and if *you* feel like disagreeing with my PoV of elf's rights, I'll be around. Don't let the fact that we're both tenants of the safe house stop you from disagreeing with me over some matter." With those words, Grey Wolf got up, gingerly picked up the second cannon and strided out of the room, being careful not to rip the door when closing it. Mel layed in the bed for wuite a while, pondering what she had just heard... Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who has found free time this afternoon and has decided to use it up presenting two theories that have been developing at the back of his mind for some time instead of attending to his e-mail backlist, as he should have. From mad_about_harrypotter at hotmail.com Tue Nov 12 19:53:26 2002 From: mad_about_harrypotter at hotmail.com (mad_about_harrypotter) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:53:26 -0000 Subject: Harry sparing V?Mort (some FF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46536 I've read with interest all of your theorising on whether or not Harry will "stoop" to Voldie's level by killing him in a final showdown, and I thought I'd add my tuppence-worth to the discussion. Personally, I do believe Harry will kill Voldie, though not necessarily with the AK curse. I think Harry sees AK as one of the worst things you can do, even to someone you think truly deserves it (see reluctance to kill Black with AK when had chance, and also unwillingness to let Lupin and Black kill Pettigrew with it). As far as Harry knows, AK carries a life term in Azkaban, reagrdless of the justification for its use. his only frame of reference for its "legitimate" use is when Barty Crouch Snr. authorised the use of the Unforgivables against Deatheaters etc - I think I am correct in my recall that he allowed the Aurors special dispensation to use AK agianst people if totally needed. We know that Harry still has a major issue over how easily Crouch Snr. allowed his own son to be jailed, and generally speaking, isn't sure all of Crouch's actions were justified, such as those regarding the jailing of Crouch Jr. and the authorised use of the Unforgivables. Thus, while I believe Harry will kill You-Know-Who, it will not be with the AK curse, but rather a more "goodly" spell, that uses positive energies and ideas to defeat Voldemort rather than pure violence and hatred as embodied by AK. I think a fantastic example of what kind of form this spell would take is seen in a FanFic, After the End, which is from a post- Hogwarts POV and recalls how Voldemort was killed by a spell built upon the tenets of love and sacrifice embodied by the way in which Lily's death saved Harry's life. In this Fic, Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Lupin and Black all vow to sacrifice themselves for Harry, and it is this sense of love and loyalty that is finally called upon to defeat Voldemort. Here's the link if you want to read this idea in more detail, it really is a well-written story: http://www.sugarquill.net/read.php?storyid=619&chapno=1 (I'm sorry, but I don't know how to create a link here...) I think this concept of a love/sacrifice spell, rather than a conventional AK-like one, could be the key to seeing how Harry could kill Voldemort "humanely", thus over-coming the argument that a straight AK-style killing curse would make Harry as bad as the Dark Lord himself. Regards, Crookshanks - Who usually lurks, but decided to put head above parapet on this issue.... From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 12 21:40:04 2002 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:40:04 -0000 Subject: Will Dumbledore give Voldemort the finger? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46537 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Brian" wrote: > I've been sketchily following the "fatally flawed potion" thread, > and while I think that this line of thought is significant, I > believe that we're a little off track with it. How's this for a new > spin? > > Pettigrew's role in the recorporation was the "willing" donation > of his hand. More specifically, his RIGHT hand. The one with the > missing finger. Ron told Harry that "You know what Pettigrew's > mother got back after Black had finished with him? Dad told me--- The > Order of Merlin, First class, and Pettigrew's finger in a box." > > The significance of this should be apparent. Dumbledore now has > access to the important ingredients specific to Voldemort's > recorporation potion. Perhaps retrieving the finger, and some "bone > of the father", is what Snape was tasked to do. After all, he IS the > potions master! (He might also enjoy getting some of Harry's blood, > too!) > > What do y'all think? So you're suggesting that having access to the same three "ingredients" used to revive Voldemort will allow Snape to brew the "antidote" -- namely, a potion to send him back to the state he was in? Interesting idea, although I see two problems with this. Of course, I'll remedy one by throwing out my own "where did Snape go?" theory. :-) First, serving Voldemort the antidote to the potion used in the graveyard would not kill him, or terminate his existence in some way. He'd still be in the same "vapor" mode he was in, or maybe even the "really ugly baby" mode pre-graveyard. In other words, he'd be in the same "state" he was in when he used Quirrell to (try) to get the Stone, when he Imperio'd Crouch Sr. and plotted with Crouch Jr., when he got Wormtail to haul him around drumming up support, etc. In other words, he'd still have his brain (or some capacity for thinking) and his voice, which is the more dangerous part. Meaning, unless they get the "bone of the father" for the antidote, then completely destroy the rest of Voldie Sr.'s remains, Voldemort could be revied in the same way, or even think of some other way. So it's only a temporary reprieve. Or maybe it has more kick than that, and undoes the previous spell and removes V from existence forever. The second problem - how exactly do they get Voldemort to take this potion? Can they have Harry fly by on his Firebolt and dump it on Voldemort's head? Leave it in a cake for a hungry Voldemort to find (a la Crabbe/Goyle in Cos)? Invite him over for dinner at Fudge's place and spike the main entree? Or, perhaps, they could get his most trusted servant to give it to him, never aware of what was happening. And here's where my "where did Snape go?" theory comes in. Here's my theory. We have Snape, the former Death Eater, who is now loyal to Dumbledore (which is needed for this to work, so bear with me). Snape therefore has "the mark," and knows when Voldemort wants to meet. Snape by now is known to be loyal to Dumbledore, so he can't show up at the local DE meetings. But if Snape could just find the right disguise, he has the wits and the background to pull it off. So he could show up -- as Barty Crouch Jr. How? Yes, the dreaded Polyjuice Potion. BCJ received the Dementor's Kiss, which means he has no soul, but is technically alive. Therefore, they have his live body to provide the key ingredient for PJP. How many people know about BCJ getting the Dementor's Kiss? None, since most people think he's been dead for years from a stint in Azkaban. So it's not like anybody's going to believe a story about him getting the Kiss, and therefore they won't repeat it. I doubt Dumbledore, Snape, McGonagall, and Fudge, nor the Weasleys, nor Madam Pomfrey, would breathe a word about this. So for all Voldemort knows, BCJ is still alive, and would just be showing up a bit late (as expected) to touch base. Snape doesn't even have to brew the potion. Crouch was already doing so; just take some of that, add in some hair from BCJ, and away goes Snape to report in. Since the Moody disguise worked so well, Snape (as BCJ) could even offer to kill Snape and return to Hogwarts - again - as the beloved :-) Potions Master, since Dumbledore was bound to figure out the Moody disguise eventually. Snape could feed false info to Voldemort and remain a spy for Dumbledore. Note that this theory doesn't mean they plan to brew and administer the antidote described above, just that they expect to gather intelligence to fight Voldemort off. But should such an antidote exist, it would be an interesting way to get it into Voldemort. aja_1991 - Who realizes that the PJP seems overused but thinks it's due at least one more go-round, and also that somebody sitting in a jar in Hermione's dormitory might think this all would make a great front page story if she gets out... From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 12 22:47:48 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:47:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: There's somthing about Trevor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021112224748.24846.qmail@web20005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46538 --- marephraim wrote: > Those of you patient enough (or bemused enough) to > have read this > far will see where I'm going with this one: The > "Students may also > bring an owl OR a cat OR a toad" statement need not > necessarily be > viewed as limiting the pets that students bring to > only the listed > species (doesn't Lee Jordan have a tarantula?). I agree. I think it was meant as a studne could only have one pet, not thirty. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Tue Nov 12 22:53:30 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:53:30 +0100 (CET) Subject: [HPforGrownups] There's somthing about Trevor In-Reply-To: <003501c28a58$da405700$0100a8c0@wohnzimmer> Message-ID: <20021112225330.27480.qmail@web21509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46539 Anne Mattigk wrote: "Well, as I mentioned above- I think Trevor is - No!- not a cursed prince, but someone cursed. Damn my lack of imagination, I have no clue who it could be.maybe a friend of Neville and he - as almost ever- don't know about it? Heavens, this just bugs me. What's about Trevor, any thoughts?" Trevor being a cursed prince would be too simple. Therefore, maybe the allusion to this traditional figure is deliberate. Trevor the toad could be a way of meaning that Neville is not who he seems to be at first sight. After all, Neville does fit with the figure of the cursed prince, if it's true, as many of the listies supposed, that he is under a Memory Charm. A cursed prince is not himself, and if Neville's memory was modified, he isn't either himself. Trevor could be a metaphor, or even better an allegory of Neville's status. What could also be interesting in this interpretation is that in alchemy, they use sometime a black toad as an allegory for the mineral subject, the chaos from which they work to achieve the process that leads to the Philosopher Stone. Well, of course, it could mean nothing according to the series' processing. However, we can't deny that one of the teachers is "working" hard on Neville: Snape. Maybe the way he bullies him is a solution to make him fly off the handle, break the charm and be his old self again. It could work, for in PS/SS we saw Neville losing control during the second Quidditch match and fighting alone with Crabbe and Goyle, that is revealing a bravery we wouldn't have suspected before. Well, let's wait and see... Iris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Nov 12 23:06:41 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:06:41 -0000 Subject: TBAY: extra canon for safe house/MAGIC DISHWASHER and elf rights revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46540 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: [Re-Englishing the original], which for your convenience I reproduce here: Harry- I'm flying north immediately. This news about your scar is the latest in a series of strange rumours that have reached me here. If it hurts again, go straight to Dumbledore -- they're saying he's got Mad-Eye out of retirement, which means he's reading the signs even if no one else is. I'll be in touch soon. My best to Ron and Hermione. Keep your eyes open, Harry. Sirius UK hardcover GoF p 199 > > However, even more intriguing is that very first comment: " a series of of strange rumours that have reached me here". We know that Sirius is in some tropical paradise, with huge multicoloured birds. What kind of rumour would arrive there? << Er...how about the newspapers? The disappearance of Bertha Jorkins and the disturbances at the World Cup were both reported in the Daily Prophet. Sirius also could have heard from Dumbledore himself or from a Muggle newspaper about the disappearance of Frank Bryce in Little Hangleton. He'd be able to correlate that with the date on which Harry felt his scar hurt, which no doubt was the deciding factor in persuading him to return. Pippin reminding Grey Wolf that much of intelligence work is realizing the significance of "white world" published information. From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Tue Nov 12 23:08:26 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:08:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily's_Role_in_Voldemort's_Final_Defeat_(WAS:_Harry_sparing_VMort) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021112230826.8349.qmail@web21502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46541 erisedstraeh2002 wrote: "So my guess is that Harry's inner wandless magical power will somehow be directed through his Lily eyes and will contribute to Voldemort's final defeat. " Like Harry shedding tears? Tears of compassion, of sorrow? I always wondered why, after all that he suffered, we never saw him crying yet. Sometimes he had tears in the eyes because of the pain his scar was giving him, but, except at the end of PS/SS, this young man never cries. It looks as if he didn't dare, as if he denied his own sorrow. Okay,"boys don't cry". However, Harry should learn to cry. The baroque age thought that tears were a gift. A magical gift? Iris ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Nov 12 23:36:00 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:36:00 -0000 Subject: Muggle/Magic Business and Money Exchange In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46542 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "MrNipha" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., illyana delorean wrote: > > >bboy_mn wrote: > > > > ... ... ... Probably a better example is Gringotts bank. They have > >some need to exchange muggle >currencies. > > Illyana: > > > > This I totally agree with. Perhaps the goblins create business > > relationships with squibs who own muggle shops or something... ... ... Paul Addes: > > To me it seems there would be enough incoming muggle money in the > money exchange business to not need any contact with the Muggle > world for the Gringotts' goblins to obtain Muggle money. There is > a need for all muggle-borns to trade Muggle money for Wizard money, > and perhaps even some of the mixed-bloods if the main bread winner > was the muggle parent. I believe there would be enough Muggle money > coming into Gringotts to supply any need for the exchange of Wizard > money to Muggle money, since contact with the muggle world is > intentionally limited. > > Paul bboy_mn responds: I was also a little confused by your post. Don't take it personally, confused is a pretty natural state of being for me. I took your post to say that there was a SHORTAGE of Muggle money and that it had to be brought in from the outside. What I was implying was that there was an EXCESS of Muggle money that the Goblins needed to get rid of. Which is right? Well, it's entirely possible that neither is right. There may be a relative balance of muggle and magic money. Wizards do periodically need muggle money as when Molly paid for the muggle taxis to take everyone to London. So the problem of unbalanced currency exchange may not even exist. My personal speculation, as noted before, leans toward an excess of muggle money in the wizard banks. I also think that the Goblins are so ruthless and money-grubbing, that they don't miss a trick. If they can make money in the muggle world, they won't hesitate to do it. And, along that line, why do I think the Pounds to Galleons currency exchange rate really sucks? Well, suck for the people exhanging money; I'm sure it's great for the Goblins. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Nov 12 23:39:06 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:39:06 -0000 Subject: extra canon for safe house/MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46543 Pippin wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: > [Re-Englishing the original], which for your convenience I > reproduce here: > > Harry- > I'm flying north immediately. This news about your scar is the > latest in a series of strange rumours that have reached me here. > If it hurts again, go straight to Dumbledore -- they're saying he's > got Mad-Eye out of retirement, which means he's reading the > signs even if no one else is. > > I'll be in touch soon. My best to Ron and Hermione. Keep your > eyes open, Harry. > > Sirius > UK hardcover GoF p 199 > > > > > > However, even more intriguing is that very first comment: " a > series of of strange rumours that have reached me here". We > know that Sirius is in some tropical paradise, with huge > multicoloured birds. What kind of rumour would arrive there? << > > > Er...how about the newspapers? The disappearance of Bertha > Jorkins and the disturbances at the World Cup were both > reported in the Daily Prophet. Sirius also could have heard from > Dumbledore himself or from a Muggle newspaper about the > disappearance of Frank Bryce in Little Hangleton. He'd be able to > correlate that with the date on which Harry felt his scar hurt, > which no doubt was the deciding factor in persuading him to > return. > > Pippin > reminding Grey Wolf that much of intelligence work is realizing > the significance of "white world" published information. Hey, thanks for quoting the original passage. I try to remember to ask for the originals, but I still forget more times than not. Translating from a translation always has major disadvantages, but is all I can work from (for now). I did quite a good job, from what I see, though (pats his own shoulder). Now, I don't really have the time right now to look into this with the time I'd like to (besides the fact that I should be going to bed in a few minutes) since I'm pretty busy right now in RL, so I'm going to ask for some help from the list: I'd like someone to check when those news came into the open as compared to when Harry receives the letter. I don't think they are "it" (see below), but I still would like to know all the facts. Now, there are two problems with newspapers. One is, as always, that Sirius is in hiding, so he wouldn't be attracting unwanted attention by subscribing to a UK newspaper (and Bertha's disapearance and Frank Bryce are not going to figure in a newspaper from whichever country Sirius happen to be in). I already said that the World Cup disturbance are top contenders for the rumours, but I feel that shouldn't be all. The other is that RL newspapers tend to arrive quite late to tropical countries, and so seems to do the owl post Harry sends his way. Which brings me to the problem of timelines (and what I requested the help for). You see, we have to consider that by normal channels, Sirius lives at least 15 days, and probably more, behind the UK WW, simply due to the distances involved. I'm speaking from my own experience when I say that in tropical countries getting access to relatively modern newspapers is frankly impossible, and the less relation the country has with your own, the worse the lag is (and Sirius won't be in a country that is friendly with the UK WW, I should imagine). Now, from that I understand that Harry's scar's news might have arrived sooner than the World Cup disturbances or at almost the same time, and these wouldn't qualify as rumours if he had gotten hold of a newspaper (about the only way to arrive faster than Harry's owl). And even if it had arrived by word-of-mouth, that would've been *a* rumour, not plural as indicated. As I said, I'm not trying to know what the rumours were, just use them as basis for another thread of MAGIC DISHWASHER and the safe house in general. Now, the other ideas: Frank Bryce, Bertha Jorkins and other possible news, could someone please check how long before/after the letter were published, and compare it to how much time it took for Harry's letter to arrive to Sirius and back (the tone of the letter suggests that as soon as Sirius received it he started his trek to England)? I'm not sure about this, but I think you'll be able to see that he must have left before most of those things saw the light, even in England. This is only a hunch, though, so I'll leave to those that are awake while I sleep to piece toghether their own theories, if they want. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 12 23:53:29 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:53:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: extra canon for safe house/MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021112235329.34474.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46544 > > > However, even more intriguing is that very first > comment: " a > > series of of strange rumours that have reached > me here". We > > know that Sirius is in some tropical paradise, > with huge > > multicoloured birds. What kind of rumour would > arrive there? << > > > > > > Er...how about the newspapers?> SNIP > Now, there are two problems with newspapers. One is, > as always, that > Sirius is in hiding, so he wouldn't be attracting > unwanted attention by > subscribing to a UK newspaper (and Bertha's > disapearance and Frank > Bryce are not going to figure in a newspaper from > whichever country > Sirius happen to be in). I already said that the > World Cup disturbance > are top contenders for the rumours, but I feel that > shouldn't be all. > The other is that RL newspapers tend to arrive quite > late to tropical > countries, and so seems to do the owl post Harry > sends his way. Which > brings me to the problem of timelines (and what I > requested the help > for). > > You see, we have to consider that by normal > channels, Sirius lives at > least 15 days, and probably more, behind the UK WW, > simply due to the > distances involved. I'm speaking from my own > experience when I say that > in tropical countries getting access to relatively > modern newspapers is > frankly impossible, and the less relation the > country has with your > own, the worse the lag is (and Sirius won't be in a > country that is > friendly with the UK WW, I should imagine). Now, > from that I understand > that Harry's scar's news might have arrived sooner > than the World Cup > disturbances or at almost the same time, and these > wouldn't qualify as > rumours if he had gotten hold of a newspaper (about > the only way to > arrive faster than Harry's owl). And even if it had > arrived by > word-of-mouth, that would've been *a* rumour, not > plural as indicated. > As I said, I'm not trying to know what the rumours > were, just use them > as basis for another thread of MAGIC DISHWASHER and > the safe house in > general. > > Now, the other ideas: Frank Bryce, Bertha Jorkins > and other possible > news, could someone please check how long > before/after the letter were > published, and compare it to how much time it took > for Harry's letter > to arrive to Sirius and back (the tone of the letter > suggests that as > soon as Sirius received it he started his trek to > England)? I'm not > sure about this, but I think you'll be able to see > that he must have > left before most of those things saw the light, even > in England. This > is only a hunch, though, so I'll leave to those that > are awake while I > sleep to piece toghether their own theories, if they > want. > > Hope that helps, > > Grey Wolf I'm not positive (and can't find the passsage right now), but wasn't it said that Dumbledore was in contact with Sirius, just as Harry was? And surely Dumbledore would know everything that was going on. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 13 00:20:36 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:20:36 -0000 Subject: Question The Riddle House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46545 MarEphraim asked: > That may answer the question I was trying to phrase. The deaths in > GoF are the Dark Lord's grandparents and father? Is this clarified > to be so in canon? Ok MarEphraim this is what I found that appeased my same question to the matter. GoF Ch1 let me set the scene. It is fifty years before Harry Potter is at Hogwarts. Tom Riddle/Voldemort is around 17 or so. That being so, his father would be around 40-50, and his grandparents would be around 60-70. "Elderly Mr. and Mrs. Riddle...their grown-up son." Voldemort's father was single at the time since Voldemort's mom was dead. His parents would be elderly. It is possible that Voldemort's dad would be elderly, and also possible that he remarried, but the fact that any son Mr. Riddle Sr. had after he left Voldemort and his mom would not be "grown-up." So they were Voldemort's grandparents and his father. His father never remarried. Now, did that make any sense? Melody From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 00:28:26 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:28:26 -0000 Subject: There's somthing about Trevor (SCABBERS) In-Reply-To: <3DD150AA.C88DD446@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46546 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jazmyn wrote: > > ... ... ... ? Perhaps Ron's rat was acceptable due to being 'small' > and was not considered a problem... or he kept Scabbers well hidden > from the staff all the time, ... ... ... > > ...Edited... > > Jazmyn Here is my theory about Scabbers the rat violating the 'owl/cat/toad' rule. Scabbers at one time belonged to Percy. Since Percy was a model student and a master of 'kissing up'. I think he was give permission to have Scabbers the Rat, and when Ron inherited the rat, he also assumed he inherited the permisson; which may or may not have been true. True, Lee Jordan had a tarantula at the train station, and if you are like me, you assumed he brought it to Hogwarts, but I don't recall any mention of it at Hogwarts, only the train station. So, unless I'm mistaken, we don't actually know that Lee brought the spider to school. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me. Back to Scabbers, I think he had implied permission to be there via Percy. bboy_mn From jtdogberry at hotmail.com Wed Nov 13 01:20:11 2002 From: jtdogberry at hotmail.com (jtdogberry) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 01:20:11 -0000 Subject: There's somthing about Trevor evil gran/bent uncle algie LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46547 There is definitly more to the whole Neville Trevor duo then meets the eye. This was discussed sometime back, I can't remember where though. I think we can safely say that he is not an animagus since that story plot has been done twice already. I do agree that Trevor could be a representing Neville abilities. I'm not convinced about it containing the souls of Mr and Mrs Longbottom because on the first occasssion we met Neville, his Gran was not overly worried about him losing Trevor. A little theory of mine (not that I myself completely agree with it) to cause a little scandle is Evil Gran/ Not so Bent Uncle Algie and vice versa. It goes as follows (it was also mentioned somewhere else before). If Evil gran wanted the Longbottom estate then she would need Neville alive because it would be to suspicious if he was dead, but if he was a squib, then he can't inherite anything magical. As his guardian, it would go to gran. Gran is not a Longbottom by blood, I will, for this theory, assum that Algie is, probably a younger brother to her husband/son in law's father (we don't know which side of the family she is). Great Uncle Aglie must have seen a lot of Neville to try and force magic out of him. He is already suspicious but has no proof. When Neville can do magic, Gran cries. That has always struck me as odd, it doesn't seem right for her somehow. But there still is not threat to her as he may not be magical enough to inherite (like Flitch, remember Neville says in COS almost a squib). Back to PS "You should have seen their faces when I got in". One very relived Uncle Aglie, one very stuned Gran who can't show dissapointment, she has to think of another way of inheriting. Family pride. Neville will be in the same year as Harry. Very convenient. Uphold the family name, and get yourself killed in the process, after all, she has been looking after Neville, she is not blame if something happens to him in school!!! She know too well that Neville has no confidence in himself and doesn't think he has any abilities yet she still go on about family pride, but she only starts doing this from the third book onwards, if you remember, Neville tells the others that Gran KNOWS that he always forgets things (see the rembembrall). Which answers the question of what was Neville about to say when he fell through the stairs in GOF. Algie is two steps ahead of her! Trevor. Neville is the only person with a toad. From the third book, Trevor isn't trying to get away from him any more, he was under his hat on the train!!! If someone found a stray toad without an owner, it would be Trevor but since when is Neville far away, like Flitch and Mrs Norris. Trevor is Algie's way of keeping an eye on Neville. Bit odd that Neville was still up and on his own in PS. Besides, Trevor always turned up AT Hogwarts (e.g. the boat). If something was wrong with Neville, Trevor could get help and no one could mistake him for anyone elses pet! There is also Bent Uncle Algie/Not so evil Gran This is pretty the same as a above but in reverse. Uncle algie wants to get rid of Neville, because he is evil so tries to kill him in seemly "harmless" way for a good reason, let get some magic out of him, I mean how could you forget that you are hanging an eight year old out of a window!!!!! This would probably scare Neville from doing magic However, this backfires and Neville can do magic after all. Even more so, he get into Hogwarts, one stunned Algie!!! So he gives him Trevor, a rather usless and out of date pet. Neville will be laughed at and no one would want to be seen dead with him, after all, Neville is not the kind of kid who would let a helpless toad go. Not only that but as Neville shares the year with Harry, Algie could us the toad as a spy, which was the one of the purposes of familiars. Very useful when Voldermort returns!!!! Or it could be a combination of the two or neither at all. Anyway, I've rambled on long enough. What do you think? Dogberry From fun_n_games_2663 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 00:36:36 2002 From: fun_n_games_2663 at yahoo.com (fun_n_games_2663) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:36:36 -0000 Subject: Harry did not spare Sirius Black! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46548 I've read a number of posts throughout this message board with the argument that Harry spared Sirius' life in the Shrieking Shack because he did not kill him. Have you ever considered that Harry hesitated with Sirius because he didn't know how to kill him? Harry had never heard of the AK curse (at least as far as we know) until the 4th year when Crouch!Moody showed it to the class. Crouch!Moody himself said that he thought the whole class could AK him and he wouldn't get so much as a nose bleed because it is extremely advanced magic. Now, we know Harry is magical and all, but he couldn't even get a summoning charm to work properly in the 4th year without loads of practice! At most, I think Harry could give Sirius a fernuculus or jelly legs curse. He couldn't do anything seriously damaging in the Shrieking Shack. Now, I don't say this to actually argue that Harry had evil intentions in the Shrieking Shack even though he did not have the means to effect his evil intentions. I make this point only to suggest that we cannot point to the Shrieking Shack and Serius as evidence of Harry's benevolence. Certainly we can point to Harry's decision with regard to Pettigrew for this purpose, but not Serius. Thoughts? fun_n_games From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Nov 13 01:22:48 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:22:48 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: There's somthing about Trevor References: Message-ID: <3DD1A968.795F87FC@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46549 ats_fhc3 wrote: (snip) > > -Acire, who wonders how the WW would feel about my fish, He-Who-Has- > No-Name. > I have a fish too.. a betta.. named Bob. Someone I know claimed to have a Betta named Alpha... Oh, forgot about Hagrid having Fang, but you never hear about him bringing Fang or any of the other animals into the castle, keeping them in a stable/barn or his house near the woods. Note Buckbeak and Norbert sorta 'visited' the castle in a way, but Hargrid wasn't the one who took them there. Fluffy the three headed dog was a special case, being as he was used as a guard dog and was not seen again after the first book nor really shown in a scene acting like a pet. Could you picture Hagrid taking him for 'walkies' or throwing tree limbs for him to fetch? You would not want to see me in the WW though, as I would be bugging Hargrid all the time to see what new critters he had. I must be one of the few who would have found Blast-Ended Skrewts fascinating. Though he might have been appalled if I wanted to dissect one to find out how they 'blasted'. Was a biology major, so I would be wanting to know how they ticked. ;) However, as for pets at Hoggwarts, I would think that unless the pet is so large or dangerous that it would disrupt classes, the staff most likely don't care what the kids keep. I mean after all, they are transforming animals in classes, learning to care for them in Hagrid's classes and chopping up dead ones for potions. Why would the staff care about a pet rat? Its not like someone is bringing a pet tiger, poisonous serpent or griffin to school, which some of the rich brats like Malfoy night even have. One wonders if the house elves clean up after pet cats or do their owners? "Dobby keeps Crookshanks' litter box clean, he does!" Jazmyn From skelkins at attbi.com Wed Nov 13 03:36:58 2002 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 03:36:58 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New List Elves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46550 Hi, everyone. These sandbags are getting *heavy,* which means that we are particularly pleased to announce the conscrip...er, addition of four new List Elves to the ranks of our overworked, unpaid and oft-abused staff. Please welcome Ali Hewison (Merry Elf), Debbie AKA elfundeb (Debby Elf), Kimberly (Moony Elf) and Pip AKA Pip!Squeak (Pippy Elf). Right now we have our four new Elves feverishly studying eclair recipes and massage manuals, but once they're done with that, they will be getting to their (rather less important) job of greeting new members, answering questions, and approving messages. They join their colleagues in the ranks of the oppressed: Heidi Tandy (Heidy Elf), Sheryll (Rylly Elf), Jen Faulkner (Jenny Elf), David Frankis (Davey Elf), Luke (Lukey Elf), Gwendolyn Grace (Gwenny Elf), Dana Mahoney (Honey Elf), Dicentra Spectabilis (Dicey Elf), Judy Shapiro (Judey Elf), Pippin (Peppy Elf), Saitaina (Saity Elf), Tabouli (Tooly Elf), Mary Ann (Dizzy Elf), Ebony AKA AngieJ (Ebby Elf), Porphyria (Ashey Elf), and Marina (Filky Elf). Every member of HPfGU ought to have his or her own List Elf. If you don't have one, then please contact the Mods, Elves and Geists at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com, and we'll be sure to remedy the situation. Elves just love getting mail, and they live to answer questions, so feel free to drop yours an email if you need any help negotiating the lists -- or for that matter, just to say hello. We are still hard at work trying to get the www.hpfgu.org.uk site back up and running. In the meantime, please continue to access the Files section via http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/Files. Our email, on the other hand, is still working , so if you want to contact the Mods directly, you can still reach us at our usual address: mods at hpfgu.org.uk. We now return you to your usual battening of the hatches and boarding of the windows. Elkins, for HPFGU Moderator Team From dicentra at xmission.com Wed Nov 13 03:49:21 2002 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 03:49:21 -0000 Subject: extra canon for safe house/MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46551 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: > > > > Pippin > > reminding Grey Wolf that much of intelligence work is realizing > > the significance of "white world" published information. > > Now, there are two problems with newspapers. One is, as always, that > Sirius is in hiding, so he wouldn't be attracting unwanted attention by > subscribing to a UK newspaper (and Bertha's disapearance and Frank > Bryce are not going to figure in a newspaper from whichever country > Sirius happen to be in). > The other is that RL newspapers tend to arrive quite late to tropical > countries, and so seems to do the owl post Harry sends his way. Don't forget SOIL HOCKEY: "Sirius Obtains Information at Lupin's Hand. Old Crowd Klatches Entire Year." [41592] He might be in contact with Lupin et al., and they might be doing that head-in-the-fireplace thing, which is instantaneous. But I can't help but like the idea that Sirius is doing some serious shaking down in the tropics, leveraging his Bad Old Rep to gather intelligence for Dumbledore. --Dicentra From jodel at aol.com Wed Nov 13 03:59:38 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:59:38 EST Subject: Question re The Riddle House Message-ID: <105.1f889776.2b03282a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46552 Andrea states, in reply to Marephraim's question; << I'm not sure exactly what your question is, but it is NOT a Flint that Tom Riddle died at the Riddle house. Remember, young Tom Marvolo Riddle was named after his father and grandfather, so his father's name was also Tom Riddle. The people killed at the Riddle house were TMR/Voldemort's grandparents and father. >> I think the question was how did 16-year-old Diary!Riddle know about the acts of 18-year-old Patricide!Riddle, since that particualr itteration had already been confined to the diary two years before the massacre of the Riddle family. I've assumed that Diary!Riddle was extrapolating from what he knew he intended to do in his own time with what information he had gotten out of Ginny earlier in the year. (It is no stretch to believe that Riddle had already promised himself his father's death as a graduation present before setting himself into the diary.) Riddle's summation in CoS is far from altogether accurate, but then "True Thomas" he's emphatically not. -JOdel From dicentra at xmission.com Wed Nov 13 04:06:21 2002 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 04:06:21 -0000 Subject: Harry did not spare Sirius Black! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46553 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "fun_n_games_2663" wrote: > I've read a number of posts throughout this message board with the > argument that Harry spared Sirius' life in the Shrieking Shack > because he did not kill him. Have you ever considered that Harry > hesitated with Sirius because he didn't know how to kill him? Yes, this subject has been discussed before (but not recently), the upshot being that we don't know how Harry thought he was going to kill Sirius. See threads beginning on messages 10800, 13425, 30206, and 32250 for some awfully gory speculation. > > Now, I don't say this to actually argue that Harry had evil > intentions in the Shrieking Shack even though he did not have the > means to effect his evil intentions. I *would* argue that Harry had evil intentions while he had his wand pointed at Sirius. He desperately wanted to kill him, and had wanted to ever since he overheard that conversation at the Three Broomsticks. Why he didn't kill Sirius is a matter of speculation, but ultimately I think it's because Harry isn't a killer at heart. But notice how disappointed he is in himself when Lupin appears and the time to kill Sirius disappears. > I make this point only to > suggest that we cannot point to the Shrieking Shack and Sirius as > evidence of Harry's benevolence. I agree that Harry was not being benevolent at that moment. He had every intention of killing Sirius, but he just couldn't do it. It wasn't a conscious decision to be a good person that stopped him. > Certainly we can point to Harry's > decision with regard to Pettigrew for this purpose, but not Sirius. Ironically, we *can* point to Harry's sparing of Pettigrew as benevolence, but *not* as benevolence toward Pettigrew--he was being benevolent to Sirius and Lupin. He didn't want *them* to have blood on their hands on account of the snivelling little rat. And yet only a few minutes earlier, Harry wanted blood on his own hands. Maybe between the time Harry failed to kill Sirius and the time he stepped in front of Pettigrew he realized that if he had killed Sirius, that would make him a killer and he didn't want his father's friends to be killers, either. Unfortunately, the narrator doesn't let us in on such a thought process, if it occured. It's more likely that Harry was acting on his heroic instincts when he stopped Pettigrew's execution, not really thinking about it. --Dicentra, who would love to pick JKR's brain about that point From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 04:58:07 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 04:58:07 -0000 Subject: How Twenty is Twenty? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46554 Recently when I was complaining that the frequently use of the number 20 should not be taken literally, I suggested that there were examples in the book where the number 20 was used in which it cleary was inaccurate and did not reflect the number of people who were there. Someone challanged me to present those. Before I present those, let me make my position clear. I speculate that JKR frequently uses the number 20 as a literary device. Sort of a 'not too big/not too small' easy to visualized number. A number which is intended to help the reader visualize a scene, and not intended to represent an exact count. I further theorized that the number 20 would be used when ever she needed a 'not too big/not to small' number for this same visually descriptive purpose. If Harry goes to get new glasses, he'll have 20 styles to choose from. If he goes to a restaurant, there will be 20 items on the menu. If a group of kids are milling around, there will be about 20 of them. Etc... We have 20 brooms at flying leasons for a double class (two houses). We have 20 cauldrons in the potions classroom even though everyone has their own cauldron, and it too, is a double class. We have 20 ear muffs in Herbology for a double class. Did I miss any??? So here are a couple examples- In Trelawney's classroom there are 20 tables, plus many 'chintz' chairs and poufs. PA - US hardcove Pg 101 "In fact, it didn't look like a classroom at all, more like a cross between someone's attic and an old-fashioned tea shop. At least *twenty* small circular tables were crammed inside it, all surrounded by chintz armchairs and fat little poufs." poufs = round ottoman, foot stool, footrest, hassock chintz = a type of fabric So we have 20 tables which can easily seat 2 and probable three, and possibly more. In a comedy club a table for 6 is about the size of a pizza. So that gives us table seating for 40 to 60, plus the additional armchairs and poufs. Assuming that some but not all of the armchairs and poufs are around the tables (which is my read) We have seating for 50 to 70 and possibly more. Yet even with a large double class, you wouldn't need seating for more than 40. A typical double class is only 20. Seems like a lot of seating for only 20 students, or in this case, 10 students. (I don't get the sense that this is a double class, please correct me if I'm wrong.) Next, Quiditch World Cup - Top Box GoF - US Hardcover pg-96 "Mr. Weasley's party kept climbing, and at last they reasched the top of the staircase and found themselves in a *small* box, set at the highest point of the stadium and situated exactly halfway between the goal posts. About *twenty* purple-and-gilt chairs stood in two rows here, and Harry, filing into the front deats with the Weasleys, looked down upon a scene the likes of which he could never have imagined." GofF -US Hardcover - Pg 99 "The box filled gradually around them over the next half hour. Mr. Weasley kept shaking hands with people who were obviously very important wizards. Percy jumped to his feet so often that he looked as thought he were trying to sit on a hedgehog." About 20 purple-and-gilt chairs. 10 in the Weasley party, + 2 UK Minister of Magic & Sports + 2 Bulgaria Minister of Magic and Sports + 3 Malfoys + 2 seats saved by Winky = 19 seats taken out of 20. So where did all these other 'important wizards' who gradually filled the box for half an hour sit??? It doesn't say that the boxES gradually filled around them, which would imply other boxes next to and in front of theirs. It says 'THE BOX filled..." which implies their box, the box at the very top which no one would have any reason to be in except the people who were seated there, filled over a period of half an hour. My point again is not to argue the logistics of these situations but to point out that the number 20 is not necessarily an exact representation of the size of anything or the number of people involved. It's simple a 'not too big/not too small' very easy to visualize number that JKR frequently falls back on. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Wed Nov 13 06:14:57 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 06:14:57 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How Twenty is Twenty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021113053244.00a56350@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 46555 At 04:58 13/11/02 +0000, Steve wrote: >Recently when I was complaining that the frequently use of the number >20 should not be taken literally, I suggested that there were examples >in the book where the number 20 was used in which it cleary was >inaccurate and did not reflect the number of people who were there. >Someone challanged me to present those. For the record, 'twas me. :-) >We have 20 brooms at flying leasons for a double class (two houses). >We have 20 cauldrons in the potions classroom even though everyone has >their own cauldron, and it too, is a double class. >We have 20 ear muffs in Herbology for a double class. PA - US hardcover Pg 101 >"In fact, it didn't look like a classroom at all, more like a cross >between someone's attic and an old-fashioned tea shop. At least >*twenty* small circular tables were crammed inside it, all surrounded >by chintz armchairs and fat little poufs." May I change your emphasis in that sentence from "at least *twenty*" to "*at least* twenty"? Incidentally, there is no implication that all tables were occupied. Furthermore, from the description of Divination classes, it seems that each table seats no more than three, but usually two, or perhaps designed only for one (the pupils are often paired off; it would make sense for them to be segregated from each other). >About 20 purple-and-gilt chairs. 10 in the Weasley party, + 2 UK >Minister of Magic & Sports + 2 Bulgaria Minister of Magic and Sports + >3 Malfoys + 2 seats saved by Winky = 19 seats taken out of 20. > >So where did all these other 'important wizards' who gradually filled >the box for half an hour sit??? Err... the "important wizards" ARE the Ministers, Malfoys, etc... (once the box is full of these "important" people, we are introduced to them as necessary ). Note the "about" in the first quoted sentence, which again you failed to include in your emphasis. Compare and contrast (as school essay titles frequently demand) that usage with the unqualified use of "twenty" when describing the classroom equipment: it's not "about" twenty cauldrons (although it *is* "around twenty earmuffs" in the box). Either we agree that JKR is very deliberate about her language, or we're not... >My point again is not to argue the logistics of these situations but >to point out that the number 20 is not necessarily an exact >representation of the size of anything or the number of people >involved. It's simple a 'not too big/not too small' very easy to >visualize number that JKR frequently falls back on. I agree that "about/more than/etc. twenty" is an expression JKR uses a lot. But exactly because she chooses to qualify the number, should we not take those occasions when she does *not* qualify it to be the actual number? A few more examples of twenties, qualified or not: "Black was taken away by twenty members of the Magical Law Enforcement Squad" (PoA p. 155) "Twenty merpeople" accompanied the Judges after the Second Task (GoF p. 437) "Around twenty ghosts" are in the Great Hall (PS/SS p. 86) "around twenty spiders were scuttling" (COS p. 117) "The creature ... must have been twenty feet long at least" (CoS, 224) Interestingly, a whole paragraph from GoF p. 222: "The Great Hall seemed somehow much more crowded than usual, even though there were barely twenty additional students there; perhaps it was because their differently colored uniforms stood out so clearly against the black of the Hogwarts' robes. " So in answer to your question in the subject title, it seems that when JKR says "twenty", she means twenty, and when she says "about twenty", she means, errr... about twenty. -- GulPLum AKA Richard, who was meant to go to bed over two hours ago but couldn't leave Steve's message unanswered. :-) From htfulcher at comcast.net Wed Nov 13 11:41:04 2002 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:41:04 -0000 Subject: Question The Riddle House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46556 "Melody" wrote: > So they were Voldemort's grandparents and his father. His father > never remarried. > > Now, did that make any sense? ME responds: Ok, works for me (note that I had no problem boring people with symbolic logic in another thread, because for some reason (no pun) I never was good at math)! Thanks again! From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Nov 13 15:02:06 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:02:06 -0000 Subject: extra canon for safe house/MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46557 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: > Pippin wrote: JKR wrote: > > Harry- > > I'm flying north immediately. This news about your scar is the > > latest in a series of strange rumours that have reached me here. > > If it hurts again, go straight to Dumbledore -- they're saying he's got Mad-Eye out of retirement, which means he's reading the signs even if no one else is. > > > UK hardcover GoF p 199 > > > > Grey Wolf asked: > > > However, even more intriguing is that very first comment: " a series of of strange rumours that have reached me here". We know that Sirius is in some tropical paradise, with huge > > multicoloured birds. What kind of rumour would arrive there? My suggestion: > > Er...how about the newspapers? The Wolf replied: > Now, there are two problems with newspapers. One is, as always, that Sirius is in hiding, so he wouldn't be attracting unwanted attention by subscribing to a UK newspaper (and Bertha's disapearance and Frank Bryce are not going to figure in a newspaper from whichever country > Sirius happen to be in). I already said that the World Cup disturbance are top contenders for the rumours, but I feel that shouldn't be all. The other is that RL newspapers tend to arrive quite late to tropical > countries, and so seems to do the owl post Harry sends his way. Which brings me to the problem of timelines <<<<< Grey Wolf, you will excuse my referring to ancient history, but I think you must be too young to remember what it was like before satellite TV. Newspapers used to have international editions published abroad and these could be had on the same day in capital cities all over the world, and maybe a week later in the outcountry, at least where tourists congregate. You could buy them at newsstands and hotels, quite anonymously, and of course we know how Sirius the dog gets his papers. I figured Sirius was hanging out in Jamaica--you'd expect to find a lot of ex-pat English wizards there who read The Daily Prophet International. As for the timeline: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/timeline_main2.html#Ninet ies According to the HP lexicon, Harry felt his scar hurt (and Frank was murdered) on Saturday August 20.The disturbances at the World Cup are reported on Tuesday August 23. Supposing that Frank's disappearance is reported at the same time in the Muggle newspapers, (why that was news, we don't know, but it's canon that it was), Dumbledore could have written to Sirius at the same time that Harry did. Dumbledore could also have informed Sirius that Bertha Jorkins was missing. Rita Skeeter didn't know about it till a week later, so I agree Sirius wouldn't have been likely to read about that in the newspaper. So I would put the sequence of events like this: 8/20 Frank is murdered, Harry's scar hurts, he writes to Sirius 8/21? Dumbledore learns of Frank's disappearance from the Muggle press 8/22 Disturbance at the World Cup 8/23 Prophet reports disturbance at QWC 8/27? Harry's owl reaches Sirius 8/31? Rita Skeeter reports Bertha's disappearance 9/4 Sirius' reply arrives at Hogwarts So there's only 15 days for Hedwig to get all the way to Sirius's location and back. Those owls are fast! Of course there's no reason to assume the journey there and back takes the same number of days, what with prevailing winds and all. Dumbledore says in "The Penseive" chapter 30, that he's been "in contact with [Sirius] ever since he left Hogwarts last year", so Sirius's information could have come from Dumbledore himself. The odd thing is that Sirius says that Dumbledore got Moody out of retirement because he was "reading the signs", but all of the signs above took place *after* Dumbledore decided to hire Moody. Voldemort and Wormtail were already discussing the planned substitution "checking and double-checking identities" the night Frank Bryce died. In fact, if Voldemort learned about Moody from Bertha Jorkins, Moody had to have been hired even before Pettigrew first reached Voldemort. There could be several explanations for this: 1) It's a Flint. We know the book was rewritten extensively. Is it possible that the original, abandoned plot of GoF called for young Crouch to take his *father's* place? That makes *so* much more sense: aging potion instead of polyjuice, extensive familiarity with the person to be substituted, the real Moody teaches Harry how to resist Imperius, no having to believe that a skilled Auror could be kept under Imperius for so long (wouldn't the demonstrated ability to resist Imperius be a job requirement?), no necessity to fool Dumbledore for months on end. In that case, Moody could have been hired much later than in the version we have. 2) Sirius just put it that way because he needed to convince Harry that Dumbledore would take him, er, seriously. Dumbledore's reading the signs and Moody's hiring are unrelated--this of course is consonant with MAGIC DISHWASHER, since MD!Dumbledore wouldn't need any "signs" to tell him that Voldemort was about to return. 3) Voldemort, a Dark Lord, has an elemental relationship with the Dark Forces. That is, they grow stronger as he does whether they take orders from him or not. Just like Middle-earth: all evil things respond to Sauron's return, even those which are not under his command. I actually like this one a lot: it explains young Barty's brief escape and how the Death Eater activity at the QWC could be taken as a sign of the Dark Lord's return if Voldemort wasn't yet in contact with them. The signs Dumbledore had read could have been Trelawney's prophecy, the Centaurs' foretellings and, perhaps, increased activity among the more prescient of the Dark Forces even prior to Pettigrew's reunion with his master, while later rumours of other undescribed dark activity reached Sirius in hiding. Pippin From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 15:23:36 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:23:36 -0000 Subject: Harry's Tears (WAS: Lily's Role in Voldemort's Final Defeat) In-Reply-To: <20021112230826.8349.qmail@web21502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46558 Iris wrote: > Like Harry shedding tears? Tears of compassion, of sorrow? I always > wondered why, after all that he suffered, we never saw him crying > yet. Sometimes he had tears in the eyes because of the pain his > scar was giving him, but, except at the end of PS/SS, this young > man never cries. It looks as if he didn't dare, as if he denied his > own sorrow. Okay,"boys don't cry". However, Harry should learn to > cry. The baroque age thought that tears were a gift. A magical gift? Now me: I wasn't really thinking about it as tear-shedding, although that would be a nice parallel to the healing tears of the phoenix. I was thinking of it as more of the eyes harnessing and directing Harry's powerful inner magic, and (somehow) defeating Voldemort in the process (without killing him, of course). As to Harry's not crying - he was about to cry at the end of GoF in the hospital wing when Molly Weasley was hugging him, but the loud bang Hermione made when she captured Rita the Beetle made him stop (this incident has always annoyed me - oh, how I wish Harry could have let it all out then! It would have made him feel *so* much better). And he wiped his tears on his bedsheet after Dumbledore told him about his mother's sacrifice at the end of PS/SS (these crying scenes always seem to take place in the hospital wing, don't they?). So Harry is definitely capable of crying, but he does seem to have a bit of that "boys don't cry" belief in that he always seems to try to hide his tears. ~Phyllis From msbonsai at mninter.net Wed Nov 13 15:57:47 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:57:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's Tears (WAS: Lily's Role in Voldemort's Final Defeat) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46559 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: (these > crying scenes always seem to take place in the hospital wing, don't > they?). So Harry is definitely capable of crying, but he does seem > to have a bit of that "boys don't cry" belief in that he always seems > to try to hide his tears. > > ~Phyllis Actually, another crying scene was when he was with Lupin, but again, hiding his tears, as he learned how to use the Patronous. As for what you are saying about Harry being able to use magic without a wand. I am working on a theory about that . . . basically I'm thinking that you know, the wizards don't seem to be able to use their magic focused without a wand. I'm wondering if somehow Harry is going to discover that he is able to use his magic in a very focused manner? I mean, that's the reason they break the wands, don't want non-humans to have the wands, Snape says something about "silly wand waving" . . . and then there's that last line about the scar . . . Could be either his scar or his eyes have something to do with focusing his magic in a very specific way, and perhaps this is what his parents were working on? http://www.mugglenet.com/bbcinterview1.shtml Now, can I ask you: are there any special wizarding powers in your world that depend on the wizard using their eyes to do something? Bit like? Why do you want to know this? I just vaguely wondered. Why? Well because everyone always goes on about how Harry's got Lilly Potter's eyes? Aren't you smart? There is something, maybe, coming about that. I'm going to say no more. Very clever. And I'm going to ask one other question which you'll say isn't clever at all. The significance of the place where Harry and his parents lived, the first name - Godrich Gryffindor. Very good, you're a bit good you are, aren't you? Thank you. I'm impressed. My editor didn't notice , I said to her haven't you noticed any connection between where Harry's parents were born, not born, where they lived and, one of the Hogwarts houses and she's sitting there going erm, I'm not being rude about Emma she's brilliant editor, the best I've ever. But know she didn't pick that up either. You're a bit good you are. http://www.mugglenet.com/scholchat2.shtml Harry Potter for grownups again! Is Voldemort the last remaining ancestor of Slytherin, or the last remaining descendent of Slytherin? Ah, you spotted the deliberate error. Yes, it should read "descendent." That's been changed in subsequent editions. (Keep hold of the "ancestor" one, maybe it'll be valuable one day! Wonder why she says *deliberate*? Is she *trying* to print valuable books? And someone has mentioned the paperbacks reverted to Ancestor again. Oh dear, I know someone just said they thought Uncle Vernon had some magic in him . . . Does everyone have a little magic in them? Even if they are Muggles? And if not, how did magic start? I think we do (outside the books), but within my books-- do you really think there's any magic in Uncle Vernon? Magic is one of those odd talents which some have and some don't. Ok, enough. If you agree with me let me know, or throw it into one of those eloquent TBAY's :o) This is where I get my list of interviews: http://www.mugglenet.com/jk.shtml Thank you!! Julie From rmm7e at yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 15:39:03 2002 From: rmm7e at yahoo.com (Regina) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:39:03 -0000 Subject: There's somthing about Trevor In-Reply-To: <3DD1A968.795F87FC@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46560 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jazmyn wrote: > I have a fish too.. a betta.. named Bob. Someone I know claimed to have > a Betta named Alpha... We keep a tank here at work and until recently had a Betta named Alpha. We thought we were so clever. Guess not. Anyway, my take on the cat OR owl OR toad was that it was a clue that Scabbers was not as he seemed. It bothered me from the beginning that Ron was allowed to have him, and as soon as Scabbers' identity was revealed, I immediately thought of the letter. I'm not saying he was allowed because anybody suspected what he was, but rather that JKR was simply giving a subtle clue. Too subtle for me, though. When Scabbers was revealed I had a hard time believing it. Sure, the Weasleys were a good wizarding family, and having Arthur at the MoM was particularly helpful to Peter, but what are the odds that Ron would become best friends with Harry? *That* was just unbelievably lucky. --Regina From jodel at aol.com Wed Nov 13 17:33:28 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:33:28 EST Subject: How Twenty is Twenty? Message-ID: <16c.1704e320.2b03e6e8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46561 Steve wrote; >>We have 20 brooms at flying leasons for a double class (two houses). We have 20 cauldrons in the potions classroom even though everyone has their own cauldron, and it too, is a double class. We have 20 ear muffs in Herbology for a double class.<< It suddenly occurs to me to wonder what fanon is working from to get the persistent notion that the students are routinely paired off in Potions class and work with their "lab partners" for the day. There has to be *something* in canon to support it, given that it is so VERY widespread. And if it IS supported, 20 cauldrons would translate into 40 students, wouldn't it? Hmmmmm.... -JOdel From msbonsai at mninter.net Wed Nov 13 17:36:19 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:36:19 -0000 Subject: Scabbers looking to get near Harry: was There's somthing about Trevor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46562 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Regina" wrote: When Scabbers was revealed I had a hard > time believing it. Sure, the Weasleys were a good wizarding family, > and having Arthur at the MoM was particularly helpful to Peter, but > what are the odds that Ron would become best friends with Harry? > *That* was just unbelievably lucky. > > --Regina Um, personally I think it was never a matter of being with *RON* to get near *HARRY*. After all, he kinda went through the family. I believe he simply wanted to be where he was safe, no one knew who or what he was, could keep his ears out to at least hear what was happening, say, Voldemort comes back, what Happens to Harry, what the MOM is doing . . . is it safe for him . . . etc. It's just his dumb blind luck that he ends up in a family that ends up with a son who's friends with Harry. And as for keeping tabs on Harry . . . perhaps he was. Always keeping himself in that roll so he could say, oh I was keeping an eye on Harry so Voldemort couldn't harm him to Sirius, or perhaps Oh I was keeping an eye on Harry so you could get near him to Voldemort. It just became his best interest. I don't think he purposely went looking for him like that. Just my opinion Julie From cressida_tt at hotmail.com Wed Nov 13 18:04:27 2002 From: cressida_tt at hotmail.com (Diane) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:04:27 -0000 Subject: Scabbers looking to get near Harry: was There's somthing about Trevor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46563 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Regina" wrote: > When Scabbers was revealed I had a hard > time believing it. Sure, the Weasleys were a good wizarding family, > and having Arthur at the MoM was particularly helpful to Peter, but > what are the odds that Ron would become best friends with Harry? > *That* was just unbelievably lucky. > > --Regina It is always possible that Pettigrew ended up with the Weasleys by sheer chance or selected them, as they are a good Wizarding family. It is also possible that there is method in his madness. He could have specifically chosen them in order to monitor Ron or another member of the family because they had or were suspected to have some kind of skill or might fulfil a role that has not yet been revealed. Ron's actual friendship with Harry would seem to be a bonus though. Nothing in canon ever seems to be coincidental and it seems likely that there is more going on here than meets the eye. Diane From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Nov 13 18:26:58 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:26:58 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How Twenty is Twenty? References: <16c.1704e320.2b03e6e8@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DD29972.E1407B37@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46564 > Steve wrote; > > We have 20 brooms at flying leasons for a double class (two houses). > > I hope people realize that a 'double class' means twice as LONG, not double the students.. All the classes seem to have two houses at a time represented in them. Thetas why double potions was such a horror to Harry. Twice as long cooped up with the Slytherins and Snape. Notice that not all students take all classes each term. Harry and Ron don't take Arithmancy and Hermione refuses to take Divination, for example. So numbers of students per class is not a good way to figure total numbers either. They obviously only take each class, maybe once per week, as noted they did not have Moody's class till Thursday and it was the first day they were talking about it. There are likely a load of classes we never heard about at all yet. We may only be seeing the tip of an iceberg. Why don't all the hidden teachers sit at the staff table? Well, the history professor doesn't.. the Muggle Studies Professor and Ancient Runes Professors are never mentioned sitting there either. One wonders if the Muggle Studies Professor is in fact, a Muggle or Squib? Possibilities for other classes? Magic Shop Class (making magical items) Magic Arts and Crafts? Latin Language classes? (How to speak Mermish) Some sort of math classes. Only makes sense that a good wizard should have decent math skills for making potions or whatever. Magic Politics/Government Drama? (Frightening concept.. magical school plays..) Jazmyn From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed Nov 13 19:33:57 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:33:57 -0000 Subject: How Twenty is Twenty? In-Reply-To: <3DD29972.E1407B37@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46565 Jazmyn wrote: > I hope people realize that a 'double class' means twice as LONG, not > double the students.. All the classes seem to have two houses at a time > represented in them. Nope, in that context, double class was meant as two-groups class (although I agree that terminology could've been clearer). There are clases that are taught at each house and year on their own. The most obvious are DADA (Defence Against Dark Arts), Transfiguration, Charms and History, as well as (possibly) Divination. On the "double" type we get CoMC (Care of Magical Creatures), Herbology and Potions (as well as the flying lessons). Potions is, very probably, also twice as long, which is what would be described in the books as "double" lesson. > Notice that not all students take all classes each term. Harry and Ron don't > take Arithmancy and Hermione refuses to take Divination, for example. > So numbers of students per class is not a good way to figure total > numbers either. They obviously only take each class, maybe once per > week, as noted they did not have Moody's class till Thursday and it was > the first day they were talking about it. Again, that is not exact: those lessons that not everyone takes are optional classes, chosen by them at the end of the second year. On the other hand, the lessons we use for these numbers are the main ones, that they take since first year and are *not* optional, and everyone takes them. Also, clever listees have figured out how many classes they have of each lesson per week, and DADA with Moody was on Thursdays and Fridays (you'll have to search for the archives for the reasoning, though). > There are likely a load of classes we never heard about at all yet. We > may only be seeing the tip of an iceberg. Why don't all the hidden > teachers sit at the staff table? Well, the history professor doesn't.. > the Muggle Studies Professor and Ancient Runes Professors are never > mentioned sitting there either. > > Jazmyn While we cannot discount that there are missing teachers from the main hall just like Binns and Trelawney, the excuses wear a bit thin for each of them. Those two you mention have not been pointed out because Harry doesn't know them, or because they were sitting on the left side of the table in the choosing ceremony in GoF. I personally discount that there are lessons Harry hasn't told us about. After 4 years, I find it hard to believe that he has ignored every single lesson, homework and exam of a class. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, whose views on this thread can be found at #43367, when Steve last brought up this up, and is not going to repeat himself. From heidit at netbox.com Wed Nov 13 19:46:24 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidi tandy) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:46:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Scabbers looking to get near Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00a701c28b4d$759e0c70$2401010a@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 46566 Regina wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Regina" wrote: > > When Scabbers was revealed I had a hard > > time believing it. Sure, the Weasleys were a good wizarding > family, > > and having Arthur at the MoM was particularly helpful to Peter, > but > > what are the odds that Ron would become best friends with Harry? > > *That* was just unbelievably lucky. And Diane suggested: > It is always possible that Pettigrew ended up with the Weasleys by > sheer chance or selected them, as they are a good Wizarding family. > It is also possible that there is method in his madness. He could > have specifically chosen them in order to monitor Ron or another > member of the family because they had or were suspected to have some > kind of skill or might fulfil a role that has not yet been revealed. > Ron's actual friendship with Harry would seem to be a bonus though. Well, it's also entirely possible that he chose the family because they had a son the same age as Harry Potter who would (unless he was a squib) be in Harry's class at Hogwarts, thereby giving him eventual access to Harry, while allowing him to remain in the wizarding world. It's also possible that he selected the family for those reasons, and then spent time, over the years, training Ron to be evil AND a friend to Harry. Oh, stop laughing. There's canon support for this. In PoA, Sirius' voice is described as sounding unused - as if it was roughened from long periods of not speaking. Peter, on the other hand, doesn't sound that way at all. His voice is squeaky, but otherwise not far from normal - it certainly isn't farfetched to think that he's been transforming back into a wizard at various times - perhaps at the Burrow, perhaps even at Hogwarts, and either talking to Ron as he sleeps (in a hypnotic suggestion sort of way), or even face to face (although that would require believing that Ron was pretending when he was horified in the Shack). And he could've told him all sorts of things, about the wonder of Voldemort and how good things would be for Ron if he helped the Death Eaters when the time was right, etc. Ron complains much more about poverty and having so much that's rubbish in Book 4, after Wormtail no longer has the access to influence him. And that's also when he first fights with Harry. Before that, to a certain extent, he's really tried to keep Harry isolated, from the minute they met on the train. *HE* sought Harry out. He even spent time in that first train ride disparaging other people - both Draco and Hermione, and to a lesser extent, Neville, are discouraged by Ron (directly and indirectly) from spending time talking to Harry. And he was sorted after Harry, so he had the opportunity to beg the hat to put him in the same house. This is a world of magic, a world where conscious memories are not always what they seem. And it's entirely possible that Pettigrew took advantage of the opportunities he had for access to Ron to mold him into someone who was, to some extent, under his (Pettigrew's) control. Other than Ron's revulsion in the Shrieking Shack scene, there's nothing in canon which makes the above scenario utterly impossible - and a series of hypnotic suggestions aren't even inconsistent with the Shack scene. We take Sirius' and Remus' word for it that Pettigrew wouldn't do anything to hurt Harry if he didn't know for sure that he'd be supported by the bully in his corner. But that doesn't mean that he wouldn't do a little seeding of the ground himself. Heidi, promoting "Ron Is Evil" since 1999 From kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 21:08:55 2002 From: kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com (kateydidnt2002) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:08:55 -0000 Subject: Combined Classes (WAS Re: How Twenty is Twenty?) In-Reply-To: <3DD29972.E1407B37@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46567 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jazmyn wrote: > All the classes seem to have two houses at a time > represented in them. Thetas why double potions was such a horror to > Harry. Twice as long cooped up with the Slytherins and Snape. ...and... > Magic Shop Class (making magical items) > Magic Arts and Crafts? > Latin > Language classes? (How to speak Mermish) > Some sort of math classes. Only makes sense that a good wizard should > have decent math skills for making potions or whatever. > Magic Politics/Government > Drama? (Frightening concept.. magical school plays..) > > Jazmyn Tehehehe, imagine the special effects in *that* school play. I don't think all classes are two houses combined. We know for sure that Potions, Care of Magical Creatures, Flying (I assume Flying is for first year students only, since that is the only place we have heard it mentioned) and Herbology are all combined classes. However, Defense against the Dark Arts has never been mentioned as two houses combined and we have seen the inside of that classroom as often as we have the Potion's room. I assume Transfiguration and Divination and Charms are not combined because it has not yet been mentioned, and there would definetly be something mentioned in the books if other houses were in with the Gryffindors in Divination. If there is cannon evidence contradicting what I have just said, it means I *really* need to re-read the books.... However, have you noticed that we have *never* heard what an Astronomy class is like? Have you also noticed that the Gryffindors are most of the time combined with Slytherin? In Book two they are with Hufflepuff in Herbology, but that is the only time they are not with the Gryffindors. They have never been in a class together with the Ravenclaws! There is evidence to this, so it is not pure assumption- in book four when Harry asks Parvati to the Yule Ball he then asks her if she knows someone who could go with Ron. Parvati answers something to the effect of "Sure, I could ask Padma, you know my twin in Ravenclaw" (sorry I lent my book to my sister, can't look it up!) if they were closely associated with the Ravenclaws or having classes with them, then she would not have had to really say anything beyond the name. Kateydidnt From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 22:33:00 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:33:00 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Reading the Signs (WAS: extra canon for safe house/MAGIC DISHWASHER) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46568 Pippin ("pippin_999") wrote: > 2) Sirius just put it that way because he needed to convince > Harry that Dumbledore would take him, er, seriously. > Dumbledore's reading the signs and Moody's hiring are > unrelated--this of course is consonant with MAGIC > DISHWASHER, since MD!Dumbledore wouldn't need any "signs" > to tell him that Voldemort was about to return. Now me: I think canon tells us that Dumbledore did read the signs that told him that Voldemort was about to return. In Ch. 30 of GoF, Harry asks Dumbledore: "Professor...do you think he's [Voldemort's] getting stronger?" Dumbledore responds: "The years of Voldemort's ascent to power...were marked with disappearances. Bertha Jorkins has vanished without a trace in the place where Voldemort was certainly known to be last. Mr. Crouch, too, has disappeared...within these very grounds. And there was a third disappearance, one which the Ministry, I regret to say, does not consider of any importance, for it concerns a Muggle. His name was Frank Bryce, he lived in the village where Voldemort's father grew up, and he has not been seen since last August. You see, I read the Muggle newspapers, unlike most of my Ministry friends...These disappearances seem to me to be linked." This tells me that Dumbledore is tracking these disappearances, and is linking them to Voldemort's rise to power. I think this *is* consistent with MAGIC DISHWASHER, in that, in a war of spies, information gathering is of utmost importance. So Dumbledore gathers information from all available sources (including Muggle newspapers), looks for clues, and links the clues to his hypotheses of what's to come. I also think Dumbledore's reading the signs and Moody being hired are directly related. Granted, the following quote is from Fake!Moody, but I believe it to be truthful nonetheless: "...I'm staying just the one year. Special favor to Dumbledore..." (Ch. 14, GoF). I believe this suggests that Dumbledore got Moody, the infamous tough ex-Auror, out of retirement in order to deal with Voldemort's anticipated rise to power. Why else would Dumbledore pull someone out of retirement, and for just a single year? ~Phyllis From nut_shell16 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 23:55:27 2002 From: nut_shell16 at yahoo.com (nut_shell16) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:55:27 -0000 Subject: Scabbers looking to get near Harry In-Reply-To: <00a701c28b4d$759e0c70$2401010a@Frodo> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46569 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "heidi tandy" wrote: > > It's also possible that he selected the family for those reasons, and > then spent time, over the years, training Ron to be evil AND a friend to > Harry. > > Oh, stop laughing. There's canon support for this. > Okay, I'm pretty new here and haven't delved much past the surface of the books, but this rocks my whole HP belief system. LOL. This would mean all bets were off and you couldn't tell the players without a scorecard. It's very disturbing. And all supported, or at least not refuted, by canon. **shudders** Shelley (who needs to go pet some kitties or bunnies or something) From porphyria at mindspring.com Thu Nov 14 00:26:04 2002 From: porphyria at mindspring.com (Porphyria Ashenden) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 00:26:04 -0000 Subject: Will Dumbledore give Voldemort the finger? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46570 Acire asked: > I do have a question, though. How would people describe the way > Snape looks when he is sent on his mission? Does paler than usual > and eyes glittering strangely mean scared, nervous, anxious? That's a great question, Acire, and IMO one people don't ask enough. I think everyone figures that this means that Snape is frightened and that his mission is dangerous. Dumbledore, for is part, *is* terrified; he can't bring himself to speak for several minutes after Snape leaves, which is hardly typical for him. However, I think if we look at the way glittering eyes and blanching are used by the text, we'll see that Snape's attitude could be nuanced a little differently that the most common assumption. This is the actual description of Snape as he's about to embark: He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely. Let's take glittering eyes first. If we look at the way the text uses the adjective "glittering" to refer to eyes, we find that it almost always implies maliciousness. Snape's eyes in particular glitter constantly (and glint and gleam), and nearly always when he is approaching prey like a spider pouncing on a fly caught in its web. For instance, when Snape questions Harry after Mrs. Norris is Petrified: "But why not join the feast afterward?" said Snape, his black eyes glittering in the candlelight. "Why go up to that corridor?" Or when Snape's about to test Neville's potion on Trevor: "Everyone gather 'round," said Snape, his black eyes glittering, and watch what happens to Longbottom's toad. Or when Lupin arrives with his DADA class in the staffroom, or when Harry asks him why Lupin is too sick to teach class, or when he finally thinks he's busted the treacherous Sirius Black: Snape was slightly breathless, but his face was full of suppressed triumph. "You're wondering, perhaps, how I knew you were here?" he said, his eyes glittering. Or when he reminds his class they'll be testing their own antidotes, or when he notices Hermione reading Rita Skeeter's article, or when he threatens Harry with Veritaserum, or when he challenges Harry on the way to tell Dumbledore about Crouch Sr.'s madness. In every case, Snape is thinking something aggressive, and very often he's thinking about his favorite subject, namely accosting some miscreant or slacker in the act of screwing up. Furthermore, there is one other reference I could find to Snape blanching, which is in PoA after he catches Harry on the way back from Hogsmeade and Harry challenges him about James: "I told you to shut up about my dad!" Harry yelled. I know the truth, all right? He saved your life! Dumbledore told me! You wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for my dad!" Snape's sallow skin had gone the color of sour milk. "And did the headmaster tell you the circumstances in which your father saved my life?" he whispered. "Or did he consider the details too unpleasant for precious Potter's delicate ears?" Here again, I interpret his feelings to be utter rage and aggression; he's about to trash Harry's image of his father in retaliation. So I'd say that whatever Snape is about to do at the end of GoF, he's champing at the bit. I think he's fantasizing about getting payback from all the evil DEs he hates and wants to see punished. I think he's a little excited about what he's doing even though he knows it's dangerous. But wait, I've got more canon! This is the cool part: At the end of PS/SS, when Harry is justifying his decision to go through the trap door, risking his life, and expulsion, the text reads: "Well, that's it then, isn't it?" Harry said. The other two stared at him. He was pale and his eyes were glittering. "I'm going out of here tonight and I'm going to try and get to the Stone first." He defends this dangerous decision by asserting: If I get caught before I can get to the Stone, well, I'll have to go back to the Dursleys and wait for Voldemort to find me there, it's only dying a bit later than I would have, because I'm never going over to the Dark Side! Don't you think that's the same sort of proud, aggressive death- defiance that Snape must have in mind? Not to mention the fact that temptation by the Dark Side is far more of an issue for Snape than Harry. I think if we could read Snape's thoughts during that scene in GoF that he'd have something similar to say. I also think Snape and Harry have more personality traits in common than either would like to admit. :-) Well then, there's my take on glittering eyes: risking life and limb to pounce on wrongdoers who richly deserve it. As to the exact nature of Snape's task, I have no idea, but I like to imagine it has something to do with harassing (or betraying) Lucius Malfoy in particular, which would also explain the "sudden movement" at the mention of that name. > -Acire, who wants to put forth the little-known theory that Snape > doesn't actually have eyeballs and that there are gemstones in his > sockets. That's why they glitter and flash. And they're magical, > too. From porphyria at mindspring.com Thu Nov 14 00:30:22 2002 From: porphyria at mindspring.com (Porphyria Ashenden) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 00:30:22 -0000 Subject: Glittering eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46571 Erm, if you want to read about glittering eyes, please read the previous post. :-) I apologize, I hit the send button by accident before I got a chance to change the subject and actually sign this. The inconsequential end of that post follows: ----- <<<-Acire, who wants to put forth the little-known theory that Snape doesn't actually have eyeballs and that there are gemstones in his sockets. That's why they glitter and flash. And they're magical, too. >>> Hee hee. So does that mean his eyes are onyx, but Lily, who could have gotten lots of after-school Dark Arts tutoring from her ol' friend Sev, she had emerald eyes? ;-) ~Porphyria, who is still paying attention to the Magic Green Eyes theories, but has no new brilliant ideas to add. From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 00:33:49 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:33:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Scabbers WAS: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: There's somthing about Trevor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021114003349.34032.qmail@web20001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46572 --- Regina wrote: > Too subtle for me, though. When Scabbers was > revealed I had a hard > time believing it. Sure, the Weasleys were a good > wizarding family, > and having Arthur at the MoM was particularly > helpful to Peter, but > what are the odds that Ron would become best friends > with Harry? > *That* was just unbelievably lucky. > > --Regina Hmm, I always assumed that Peter just took advantage of being able to have someone else provide his food and shelter; making sure he slept in warm house instead of freezing to death, starving to death, or being eaten by a predator. That he was handed down to Ron didn't really change anything (except maybe he got more table food). Even Ron being best friends with Harry didn't change anything. Sure, he took advantage (or stored up so he could later take advantage) of what he learned, but I don't think that was his primary reason for being with the Weasley's. Is it unlikely that he would just happen to end up with the one who would be Harry's best friend: of course. But then, there are a lot of unlikely things in HP. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 00:39:49 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:39:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How Twenty is Twenty? In-Reply-To: <16c.1704e320.2b03e6e8@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021114003949.76711.qmail@web20008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46573 --- jodel at aol.com wrote: > Steve wrote; > > >>We have 20 brooms at flying leasons for a double > class (two houses). > We have 20 cauldrons in the potions classroom even > though everyone has their > own cauldron, and it too, is a double class. > We have 20 ear muffs in Herbology for a double > class.<< > > It suddenly occurs to me to wonder what fanon is > working from to get the > persistent notion that the students are routinely > paired off in Potions class > and work with their "lab partners" for the day. > There has to be *something* > in canon to support it, given that it is so VERY > widespread. > > And if it IS supported, 20 cauldrons would translate > into 40 students, > wouldn't it? > Hmm, didn't Neville melt Seamus' cauldron in SS? Yes it mentioned that Snape put them all in pairs that day. I don't know how common it is for them to work that way, though. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Thu Nov 14 01:15:18 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 01:15:18 -0000 Subject: TBAY - Redemption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46574 After a hard day at work, Marina slogs home to her little beachside flat in Theory Bay. "Hi, honey, I'm home!" she calls out, kicking off her shoes and collapsing on the living room sofa. Before long, George emerges from the kitchen, carrying a glass of Chambord and a small box of Godiva truffles. Restored by alcohol and chocolate, Marina is ready to start catching up on current events in the Bay. "So what have you been doing with yourself while I've been slaving away at the office, George?" The young man looks thoughtful. "I've been talking with Eileen," he says. Marina frowns. "She hasn't been trying to get you to bang, has she?" she demands sternly. "You know you're not supposed to bang." "No, not at all," George says quickly, though there's a furtive look in his eyes Marina doesn't entirely trust. "No banging. It was all very proper and above-board -- we were talking about redemption." "Ah." Marina relaxes. "An excellent subject. And your specialty, too." "Yes, and Eileen's got me thinking." George sprawls on the couch next to Marina and steals a truffle. "See, she was looking for other examples of redemption scenarios -- other than Snape, I mean -- to bolster the theory that JKR is interested in the subject. Eileen listed the usual suspects: Crouch Sr, Avery, Pettigrew, Draco, even Dudley... But I'm afraid I found fault with each one. The Crouch Sr storyline takes place mostly off-stage, it's just too periferal and sketchy to count as a meaningful redemption scenario. As for Avery, as I told Eileen: > "Eileen, as much as I like Avery, he doesn't really exist in the > books. The man you know as Avery is HPFGU's creation, not JKR's. > JKR's Avery is probably a pitiful toadie with no personality. So, > you can't claim that he has a redemption narrative. Anyone else?" "What about Peter," says Marina. "It could happen. There's been forshadowing..." George shrugs. "It's too soon to tell for him, and for Draco. As for Dudley... I think Eileen was getting a bit desperate at that point." Marina sighs. "Speaking of points, George -- do you actually have one?" "I always have a point!" George looks indignant. "My point is, I think Eileen is needlessly limiting herself by looking only to bad guys (or, in Snape's case, former bad guys) for redemption possibilities. But good guys can need redemption too. Take Sirius, for instance." Marina perks up -- she's always ready to take Sirius, after all. "Do you mean the Prank?" she asks. George shakes his head. "Nah. The Prank, to be honest, is small potatoes in the great scheme of things. All it requires is for Sirius to sincerely admit he was wrong to do it, and the matter will be close. No, I'm talking about the events preceding the Potters' deaths, and Sirius' role in them. He wrongly mistrusted a good friend. He talked James and Lily into a course of action that got them killed. He promised them he'd be there to take care of Harry, and then wasn't. Yes, he meant well, yes he was betrayed, yes, there were circumstances beyond his control, but he still made some extremely bad judgement calls that resulted in disastrous consequences. Didn't you yourself suggest that Sirius' offer to have Harry go live with him at the end of PoA was motivated more by a desire for redemption than any meaningful connection with Harry?" "Yes!" Marina nods enthusiastically. "I remember. I pointed out that Sirius really didn't know Harry then, not as a person. He was trying to redeem himself by finally keeping his promise to James and Lily." "Exactly. And he's still working on it all through GoF -- leaving his safe tropical hideaway to live in a cold cave an eat rats, just so he can be near enough to watch out for Harry." "Doesn't do Harry much good, though, does it?" says Marina. "When the big confrontation with Voldemort comes, Sirius isn't there. He's not even there to help rescue Harry from Barty." "Exactly," says George. "Sirius is *trying* to redeem himself, but he hasn't succeeded yet -- just like Snape. It's going to be a long, hard effort for him -- just as it will be for Snape." Marina sips her Chambord as she thinks it over. "I like it," she says finally. "It fits in with what many other readers have noted about Snape and Sirius being more similar than either of them would be willing to admit." "That's right." George beams. "It's got parallelism. It's got thematic coherence. It's completely bang-free. It's perfect!" "Just for that," Marina tells him, "you can have the last truffle." Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From tmarends at yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 02:16:51 2002 From: tmarends at yahoo.com (Tim) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:16:51 -0000 Subject: extra canon for safe house/MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46575 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > Supposing that Frank's disappearance is reported at the same > time in the Muggle newspapers, (why that was news, we don't > know, but it's canon that it was), Dumbledore could have written > to Sirius at the same time that Harry did. Dumbledore could also > have informed Sirius that Bertha Jorkins was missing. Rita > Skeeter didn't know about it till a week later, so I agree Sirius > wouldn't have been likely to read about that in the newspaper. > > > Pippin Me: It sounds like you're assuming that Dumbledore is reading the London Times, or the Sun, or some other major British newspaper... who's to say there's not some local paper for the area surrounding the Riddle House (sorry, don't have my books with me to get the name of the town). Surely Dumbledore, who knows that Voldemort was once called Tom Riddle, would be interested in anything unusual in that surrounding area. Tim From heidit at netbox.com Thu Nov 14 02:20:24 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidi tandy) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:20:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Analyze This (was Re: Scabbers looking to get near Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <010701c28b84$64696d50$2401010a@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 46576 In response to my post that > > It's also possible that he selected the family for those reasons, > and > > then spent time, over the years, training Ron to be evil AND a > friend to > > Harry. > > > > Oh, stop laughing. There's canon support for this. > > Shelley wrote: > > Okay, I'm pretty new here and haven't delved much past the surface > of the books, but this rocks my whole HP belief system. LOL. This > would mean all bets were off and you couldn't tell the players > without a scorecard. It's very disturbing. And all supported, or > at least not refuted, by canon. **shudders** Um. Wibble. The post wasn't really meant to freak people out - not at all. I think those of us who've been in analysis for coming on 3 years for GoF (and I don't mean psychiatric analysis, although I know some people think we'll probably need it if the books' not out by midsummer) and well, looking into the nuances of the books is a practiced trait. A while back, this list had a debate about the impact of a semicolon on a particular bit of canon analysis - and you should see what we did to the Wand Order issue back before it was "corrected" in printings after November, 2000. When you look at the sheer number of characters in these books, to a certain extent, you can't tell them without a scorecard, and that's what many of us look to the Lexicon for - the bare facts and caon statements about each character, creature, place and thing (http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon). But I'm sure with a little more time meandering among the messages here, all the newbies who are a bit flummoxed by the discreet bits - and odder theories - that some of us generate will have your own full share of unique and interesting insights. Or you'll just enjoy reading about them, which is fine and good too! Heidi Follow me to FictionAlley.org Fanfics of all shapes, sizes and SHIPs http://www.fictionalley.org From monkykat at aol.com Wed Nov 13 19:20:43 2002 From: monkykat at aol.com (monkykat at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:20:43 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Scabbers looking to get near Harry: was There's somthing about Trevor Message-ID: <1ab.be2d634.2b04000b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46577 In a message dated 11/13/02 10:49:53 AM, msbonsai at mninter.net writes: << --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Regina" wrote: When Scabbers was revealed I had a hard > time believing it. Sure, the Weasleys were a good wizarding family, > and having Arthur at the MoM was particularly helpful to Peter, but > what are the odds that Ron would become best friends with Harry? > *That* was just unbelievably lucky. > > --Regina >> Perhaps pettigrew was being extremely clever in choosing to live with the Weasley's. Pettigrew couldn't predict who Harry would be friends with, but he did know somethings. 1) Harry would be going to Hogwarts in 10 years. 2) Harry would likely be sorted into Gryffindor (which is clearly the most likely house for James, and it seems that, generally speaking-of course there are exceptions, that people in one family are placed in the same.) 3) People in the same house same year same sex will generally become friends and will almost definately live in the same dormitory. So Pettigrew needs to find a family that has a one year old son, whose family is historically a gryffindor family, and a family that is unlikely to have their one year old son turn out to be a squib. I think it is clear that the Weasley's meet all of Pettigrew's criterion. First, their first two sons had likely at this time already been sorted into Gryffindor, they were of a stong wizarding blood (only one squib in many many weasleys), and they had the requisite son! So, My opinion is pettigrew wanted to keep an eye on harry so he chose the best possible candidate: the weasley's. Jana From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Nov 13 22:53:38 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:53:38 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How Twenty is Twenty? References: Message-ID: <3DD2D7F2.A6566010@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46578 Grey Wolf wrote: > > > Nope, in that context, double class was meant as two-groups class > (although I > agree that terminology could've been clearer). There are clases that > are > taught at each house and year on their own. The most obvious are DADA > (Defence Against Dark Arts), Transfiguration, Charms and History, as > well as > (possibly) Divination. On the "double" type we get CoMC (Care of > Magical > Creatures), Herbology and Potions (as well as the flying lessons). I disagree as when I went to school, double classes were 90 minute classes rather then 45 minute classes, double in length, not size. We also had double session as well to complicate things further so they could cram 1600 students into a school meant for 800 till another school was built. There is no solid evidence that all classes are required to be taken every single year either, since it might well be tailored for each 'major' and we are only seeing mostly kids who are just doing general glasses and not majoring in anything or all have the same major. There might be a certain number of credits required in some fields to graduate, judging by Ron's insistance that they keep their old subjects.. Or maybe Ron feels forced to follow in his brother's wake, because of his parents expectations and Harry just follows his lead cause he is clueless as to what he wants to do with his life, other then keep from getting killed. Seems like every class has two houses represented in it, wiether double (length) or not. > > Potions is, very probably, also twice as long, which is what would be > described in the books as "double" lesson. > > Again, that is not exact: those lessons that not everyone takes are > optional > classes, chosen by them at the end of the second year. On the other > hand, the > lessons we use for these numbers are the main ones, that they take > since first > year and are *not* optional, and everyone takes them. Also, clever > listees > have figured out how many classes they have of each lesson per week, > and > DADA with Moody was on Thursdays and Fridays (you'll have to search > for > the archives for the reasoning, though). Harry must have bad luck getting into optional classes before they are filled if he keeps ending up in Divination. Maybe he is also just following Percy's suggestions. If Divination was 'required', then Hermione could not drop out of it. Or he is lousy at figuring out how to pick his classes or just randomly picks them to get it over with, like Dean Thomas did. I know people in high school who did this, cause they didn't care what classes they took. Or maybe the class is a pre-req for a class he really wanted? > > While we cannot discount that there are missing teachers from the main > hall > just like Binns and Trelawney, the excuses wear a bit thin for each of > them. What excuse for Binns? He doesn't eat, why would he want to sit in at meals? Can he sit in? Would he just keep embarrassingly sinking through the chair into the floor, being a ghost? ;) > Those two you mention have not been pointed out because Harry doesn't > know them, or because they were sitting on the left side of the table > in the > choosing ceremony in GoF. Or the room isn't wide enough for a staff table that fits everyone, so only certain ones sit there. Filch doesn't sit there either, but he is not a professor, but an employee. > > I personally discount that there are lessons Harry hasn't told us > about. After 4 > years, I find it hard to believe that he has ignored every single > lesson, > homework and exam of a class. I doubt it. Rowling is telling a story, not recounting Real Life. Shes apt to write ANYTHING in that sounds good, wither the fans like it or not. If she thinks Magic Shop Class or Latin Studies sounds good, she would include it, even if there was NO mention of it in any previous books. Shes not done springing new stuff on us yet, by any means. If she has already told us EVERYTHING about classes at Hoggwarts, then why bother focusing so much attention on the school in the first place if shes going to bore people with it being 'same old thing' after a few books. Note how she sprung the TriWizard thing on us, when we were thinking there would be more Quiddich? Guess the World Cup at the start was just so Quiddich fans would not be put out by the lack of the game that year at Hoggwart's. We never even heard about Ancient Runes and Muggle Studies till the second book and they are only mentioned in passing. Could see it now: Ron: Look at the fairyhouse I made in Magic Shop Class! Its enchanted to be big enough on the inside to hold a thousand fairies! Oh, Goyle's hand got cut off with the magical saw and he is up in the Infirmary having it magically reattached. Professor Wrenchworth was really angry! Harry: Wicked. (turns it over, looking at it from all sides and handing it back) But how do the fairies get in? Ron: (looks at the fairyhouse and blinks) Oh! I don't believe it! I forgot to make a hole in the front! Hermione: (rolls her eyes) Really, Ron! However, Rowling blew everyone's 'head counts' of numbers of students out of the water when she was asked directly and said 'about a thousand' Either shes got some more classes up her sleeves or when she says 'twenty', she means a lot more then that.. or maybe there are as many students as the author NEEDS there to be in any scene, much like how movies are filmed. We see 100 extras and are told there are 1000. Its all movie magic, ya know. Books can be just as flexible, since they don't have to give you names for EVERY extra. ;) --Jazmyn-- From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Nov 13 23:16:03 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:16:03 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Combined Classes (WAS Re: How Twenty is Twenty?) References: Message-ID: <3DD2DD33.F6EA6A71@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46579 kateydidnt2002 wrote: > > Tehehehe, imagine the special effects in *that* school play. I don't > think all classes are two houses combined. We know for sure that > Potions, Care of Magical Creatures, Flying (I assume Flying is for > first year students only, since that is the only place we have heard > it mentioned) and Herbology are all combined classes. However, > Defense against the Dark Arts has never been mentioned as two houses > combined and we have seen the inside of that classroom as often as we > have the Potion's room. I assume Transfiguration and Divination and > Charms are not combined because it has not yet been mentioned, and > there would definetly be something mentioned in the books if other > houses were in with the Gryffindors in Divination. If there is cannon > evidence contradicting what I have just said, it means I *really* > need to re-read the books.... > However, have you noticed that we have *never* heard what an > Astronomy class is like? > Have you also noticed that the Gryffindors are most of the time > combined with Slytherin? In Book two they are with Hufflepuff in > Herbology, but that is the only time they are not with the > Gryffindors. They have never been in a class together with the > Ravenclaws! There is evidence to this, so it is not pure assumption- > in book four when Harry asks Parvati to the Yule Ball he then asks > her if she knows someone who could go with Ron. Parvati answers > something to the effect of "Sure, I could ask Padma, you know my > twin in Ravenclaw" (sorry I lent my book to my sister, can't look it > up!) if they were closely associated with the Ravenclaws or having > classes with them, then she would not have had to really say anything > beyond the name. > Kateydidnt > There was mention of double Divinations at one point.. though only Gryffindor students were ever mentioned by name in the class, which supports my stating that 'double' classes are twice as long, not refering to two houses in a class. However, maybe the rest of the students in the class did nothing worth mentioning? Hard to say whats going on without an exact list of everyone in every class. For all we know, there might be classes with all 4 houses in them at once.. Maybe History, since its easier to sleep in a large class then a small one. I doubt if any of the houses would stir up trouble with each other in that class, since their brains would be too dulled with boredom for them to find the energy. ;) Jazmyn From editor at texas.net Thu Nov 14 02:46:36 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:46:36 -0600 Subject: Glittery Eyes, was Will Dumbledore give Voldemort the finger? References: Message-ID: <01ab01c28b88$0dc320a0$ad05a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46580 Porphyria said: > However, I think if we > look at the way glittering eyes and blanching are used by the text, > we'll see that Snape's attitude could be nuanced a little differently > that the most common assumption. May I add one to the list? It's not "glittering" precisely....but I think it fits your pattern: 'I think I'd better teach you how to *block* unfriendly spells,' said Lockhart, standing flustered in the midst of the hall. He glanced at Snape, whose black eyes glinted, and looked quickly away. (CoS[UK], 144) It's a glint, not a glitter. Still. Add it to the list? Great analysis, Porphyria. ~Amanda, off to reread the end of GoF and possibly be pried away from her dark mark theory From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Nov 14 04:05:21 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:05:21 -0600 Subject: Key points in CoS Message-ID: <018c01c28b93$0d8887a0$b8a0cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 46581 Okay, according to The Leaky Cauldron, Filmforce had an interview with JKR. They quote her as saying: "Key things happen in book two. No one knows how important those things are... yet. There's a lot in there. And I know how difficult it was to get it all in there without drawing too much attention to the clues." So, what are they?!? The first thing I thought of (and only thing so far, I'm thinking slowly tonight) was Hagrid in Knockturn Ally. Surely there's someplace else to buy flesh eating slug repellant? Don't good wizards want to repel slugs too? Any other thoughts on the matter? Richelle ******************************************************************************** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring ******************************************************************************** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Thu Nov 14 04:34:07 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 04:34:07 -0000 Subject: Key points in CoS In-Reply-To: <018c01c28b93$0d8887a0$b8a0cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46582 Hmm...I'm thinking without the book in front of me, but the one thing that always struck me is where was the real Voldemort during this book and book three. In book one, we are left with just a spirit. In book four, we have the ugly baby thing, since I assume that that's what was in the chair that Frank saw. What did he do during those years? Also for book two, we have what seems to be an inconsequential DADA teacher. To me, Gilderoy Lockhart had too major a role to be *just* comic relief. Look at everyone else who has filled the role. Twice it turned out to be the enemy in disguise, and the other time it was a connection to Harry's past, and a strong ally for him. I don't think we've seen the last of Gilderoy Lockhart. We also see the best canon evidence for a long lasting fued between the Malfoy's and the Weasley's. I refuse to believe that that's inconsequential. I have wild theories about the relationship between those two families, the most logical and canon based being Imperius VICTIM!Arthur. I think that that will come up. Also, Book 2 is when we are introduced to Fawkes. With the next book being called The Order of the Pheonix, I can't help but think that it won't just be metaphorical, that Fawkes the Pheonix will in some crucial way be involved. We also find out about Godric Griffyndor's sword. I don't know how much I buy into Heir theories, but between that and Godric's corner, which someone else has brought up JKR commenting on recently, something has to be going on. This was also the year that students deliberated over which courses to choose. I can't help but wonder if those choices, and the advice given out by other students at that time, could end up telling us something crucial about their character. ~Risti, who's now going off to reread CoS, since she really should anyway before seeing the movie. From Malady579 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 14 04:35:11 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 04:35:11 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Is redemption *always* a possibility Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46583 On a bright autumn day where the wind is just crisp enough, a distinct scream echoed through the halls of the Safe House. Pip with her hands balled into fists was on a mission. She darted down into the west wing of the house and to a very scratched, very heavy door. Pounding three times, "Wolf you better be in there!" she challenged. On the other side of the door, Grey Wolf looked up from his latest model of the flight Sirius took the months he was in hiding. Given that Sirius has no action figure, Grey was using an old Malibu Barbie doll, with her hair cut short to *try* and make her more masculine, and a Triceratops with wings glued on for Buckbeak. A bit perplexed since Pip never comes banging on his door with threats, Grey quickly waved his hand to open the door. "How dare you." Pip hissed as she advanced toward his desk. "How dare I what?" asked Grey actually cowering a little at the passion behind her eyes. A fuming Pip grabbed Grey's arm and tried to pull him up and drag him out, "What did you give her? Not something Meg prescribed I hope. I mean that girl is still in med school after all and..." A bit amused that Pip thought she could managed to actually even lift his arm let alone drag him anywhere, "Give who what?" "Melody. Gracious who else is here. Honestly." Pip said while rolling her eyes. "You did something to her." Grey responded defensively, "I did nothing of the sort. You know I took her breakfast yesterday..." "Exactly. Now if you will just...get...up" Pip grunted while still trying to move the beast. Finally giving up since she knew Grey was enjoying her vain efforts too much, which men often times do ;) , Pip took a deep breath and asked, "Will you at least, come and see what I mean?" "See what?" That bit question just infuriated Pip more, and with one big grasp and tug, she not only managed to move Grey, but to drag him completely to his door before Grey realized what happened. After this day, Grey took note not to play dumb when Pip's veins were popping out of her forehead. "Pip." Grey called still stumbling. "Pip! Please. Let me at least stand up." Reaching her destination, Pip finally stopped dragging Grey and dropped him by the main windows overlooking the backyard. "Look." she insisted. Checking his arm first for bleeding slashes, Grey looked up and out to see a very odd site indeed. Melody was wistfully swaying in the middle of the backyard dressed in her nightgown with her new tail-coat over it and a little fuzzy spring ball headband on her head. She was twirling around trying to make her toy boat fly in its string. And if he wasn't mistaken, she was also holding a small thundercat's figure in her other hand. Not being able to resist, Grey commented, "And?" Pip's eyes started filling with tears. "She must of taken the whole bottle! And it is ALL YOUR FAULT!" Grey looked at Pip and then looked out at Melody. "What do you expect me to do about it? I did not tell her to take that much." Tapping her foot getting very impatient, "Even still, YOU are the one that needs to fix it." Grey sighed. He knew this argument is pointless. "Pip, you know I would never..." Pip relaxed a bit, "I know. It is just...she has been through so much right now. When I went to Mel's room this morning to check on her, but she wasn't there. Then, I saw the empty bottle and knew she wasn't in sound mine enough to self-dose herself. I owled the Doc for a counter medicine, but I cannot get close enough to Mel to get her to take it." Pip sat down watching Mel walk the little figure across the boat deck and then made him fall off into the grassy ocean. "Have you gone out there to bring her in?" "I tried, though she is quite strong for a loony." Pip sighed. "I only got her to the porch before she broke free and ran the where she is now. Grey, I am afraid she will crack and jump in the bay if we don't get her this other medicine." "Ok, ok. I'll try to talk reason to her. And well, if that doesn't work, I'll sweep her up and lock her in her room until this passes." "Thank you." Pip smiled feeling like her little housemate was going to be safe after all. She walked out onto the porch with Grey Wolf and sat in the rocker to watch as he tiptoed behind the girl. Melody of course was in her own little world. She never told Grey and Pip the affects medicine can have on her little body, so she was feeling *really* good at the moment watching the boat go up and down and up and down and... "Twinkle twinkle little...AAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!" Seems Grey was a little too quiet in approaching dear Mel. Granted when one is hopped up on medication a white bunny rabbit could frighten you, but a rather large hairy werewolf is right up there in certain death no matter your mental state. "Melody. Mel. Mel!" Grey called as he chased the girl around the yard. This was not going as he planned. Stopping abruptly at the sound of her name, Melody swayed and stared near the space where the voice came from. "Grey?" she said as her head bobbled. "Yes, Mel. It is me." he tried to say while sounding reassuring. "Why are you wearing a fur coat?" she asked glazy eyed. Twitching his mouth a bit to figure out how much of reality he needed to tell the girl, "Um, Mel. This is not a coat. Well, not a coat like you're thinking. It is my skin." "Ewwww, your skin is very hairy." She said as she crumbled down to pick at the buttons on her tail-coat. Her boat and figurine were still clasped in her other hand. "Yes, well," Grey blustered trying to change the subject. "Mel, um...what are you doing out here?" Sitting back letting her head bounce, Melody recalled in a rather sing-song voice, "I was going downstairs when I heard a voice. It was Eileen talking but I could not see her." Grey looked back to Pip on the porch and saw she was listening closely and was relieved he has managed to calm Mel down to one place. "What was Eileen saying?" he asked not sure if Eileen was really in the house or not. "Oh, she was talking about redemption and Dalmatian Roads..." Mel grinned starting to make the Thundercat's figure walk on the deck again. Grey laughed. "I think you mean Damascus." "Huh? Oh, ok." Mel smiled still not quit focusing her eyes right. "Anyway, she says that Snape and Crouch are redeemed and Peter probably will be, but not Draco. She doesn't like Draco." Melody emphasized the last bit with the figure pounding on the toy boat. Grey began looking around wondering if this girl would ever get to a point or just keep rambling. "So I came out here to wonder. See I found my boat and this cute kitty figurine." Melody said as she held out the figure six inches from Grey's face for his appraisal. "Yes, very nice. Um, Mel. What did you wonder?" Grey kept pressing hoping to get back to his own figures and theory sometime before Christmas. "Oh, I wonder if," Melody looked around to see if anyone else was around, which granted if she was not a bit loopy she would of noticed Pip there, and upon deciding it was safe, crept next to Grey's ear to whisper, "You-know-who will be redeemed." Grey laughed. "I truly doubt it." Melody bounced back, scrunched her brow, and pouted, "Says who?" "Well, no one, I just don't see him turning from evil and becoming the grand, good wizard of WW." Grey said while sitting back on his elbows. He figured he might as well get comfortable. Glaring at Grey, Melody took up her boat and Thundercat. "Look, if Voldemort is not redeemable then why bother with redemption in the first place? It is like he made the *one* choice to get on the boat, and then he is forced to take the fate of the boat ride he has no control over." To punctuate her story, Melody walked the figure on the deck and caused it the hit a nearby rock spectacularly and throw Voldemort Thundercat into the grassy sea. "But, He-who-must-not-be-named," she said again hush-hush, "Is not on a doomed boat. He can choose to be good again." Melody this time walked Voldemort on the boat deck but when the boat hit the rock, she quickly fashioned a lifeboat out of her dangly fuzzy ball headband and saved Voldemort. "See, there is always a life boat in redemption." she said quite proudly. Grey raised an eyebrow at her. "Honey, you are insane. You have taken *way* too much of Meg's medicine, and I am sure your head is still not well enough to have you thinking that Voldemort can be redeemed like Darth Vader." "NO!" Melody insisted, "Not like Darth Vader. Like Paul on the road to Dalmatians." "Damascus." Melody rolled her head away from Grey annoyed by his very presence, and peered at the figure. "But, don't you see. If Voldemort does change, if he does see the error of his ways and does a complete 180 like Paul, then all can live. Harry then does not have to be a murderer." "But Mel, the evil overlord must always die." Grey said picking a few blades of grass. She cut her eyes over to the beast next to her, "Grey, that is meta-thinking." Grey smiled a bit, "True. But, just the way things are." "Not in Harry Potter land." she said brushing the grass while staring at the clouds. "Here anything is possible. Even the redemption of Voldemort." she added as she then decided to pick the flower petals and cup them in her hand. Grey looked up amazed she finally said the name. "Mel, the whole arc of the story is to make a final battle between good and evil and good *will* win." "Damascus!Voldemort is still good conquering evil. It just does not have that Bang." and with those words Melody clapped her hands together and giggled as the petals flew over Grey. He looked a little silly. "Alright, enough fresh air for you," Grey groaned as he brushed the petals off and swept up Mel, her boat, and figure and lumbered back to the Safe House. Mel rolled her head back to watch the sky pass and went back to cooing to herself. Seeing Grey walking back to the Safe House with an uninjured Mel in tow, Pip looked very relieved. Jumping up to open the door and clear the path, Pip helped Grey lower Mel on the couch and gave Mel the antidote to Meg's medicine. Tucking a blanket around the little loony as she returned to deep sleep, Pip asked, "What was she talking about with you for so long? I would of figured she would not of been able to form complete sentences with as much medicine as she took." Sitting into his usual chair, Grey said, "She was going on about Voldemort being redeemable. She really did take too much there." Pip sat back on her heels and thought about the idea. "Well, it is possible. After all, the guy is only human." Grey knocked his head back and growled a bit. "Voldemort deserves to die. We all know that." "A soul can be broken and turned at anytime." Pip said quietly. "Good can be chosen as easily as evil. Maybe Voldemort can be redeemed." "Oh bother," Grey grunted as he got up to return to his room. "Fine, be loony also. I still say the one character that will *not* have any sort of redemption contract is Voldemort. He has gone too far to change." Watching Grey pound off to his room, Pip looked at sleeping Mel. "Well, probably not, but it is plausible. He too can make choices." Melody who hopes she managed to represent Pip's and Grey's opinions on the matter, and greatly apologies if she deeply failed. From illyana at mindspring.com Thu Nov 14 04:22:07 2002 From: illyana at mindspring.com (illyana delorean) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:22:07 -0700 Subject: Classes with Ravenclaw? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46584 Kateydidnt said: > >Have you also noticed that the Gryffindors are most of the time >combined with Slytherin? In Book two they are with Hufflepuff in >Herbology, but that is the only time they are not with the >Gryffindors. Just because a class with Ravenclaws has never been mentioned doesn't mean that it has never happened. Like someone said before, Harry may have been in some classes that were never mentioned in the books because they might have been boring (or for whatever reason). I think that the reason Harry's classes with the Slytherins are mentioned often is that the Slytherins are his enemies (well, for the most part), and the most interesting things happen in these classes because of the mutual hatred. The reason Herbology with the Hufflepuffs was mentioned is that JK needed to introduce the mandrakes and show the interactions Harry had with the Hufflepuffs when everyone thought he was Slytherin's heir. then she said: >They have never been in a class together with the >Ravenclaws! There is evidence to this, so it is not pure assumption- >in book four when Harry asks Parvati to the Yule Ball he then asks >her if she knows someone who could go with Ron. Parvati answers >something to the effect of "Sure, I could ask Padma, you know my >twin in Ravenclaw" (sorry I lent my book to my sister, can't look it >up!) if they were closely associated with the Ravenclaws or having >classes with them, then she would not have had to really say anything >beyond the name. Was Padma ever mentioned before this conversation? If not, the reason Parvati went into such detail was probably that JK wanted everyone to know that Parvati and Padma are twins and that Padma is a Ravenclaw. Either that or Parvati thinks Ron is an idiot. illyana -- S1.3 MIL+++ RWG++# FRI++ CBG++ P&S-- f++/+++ n- $++++ 9F13, 1F22, 2F13, 3F02, 3F05, 4F01, 4F08, 4F11, 4F19 F1980 HPGCv1 a22 e+ x+* Rm Ri HP4 S+++ Mo++ HG+/VK++ HaP+/SS+++& FGW++ DM++& VC-- GG-- CD+ VK++ SS+++& PT--- AF-- MM++ RL++ O+m FAo F- Sl FHo SfD "What's the point in having a Honda if you can't show it off?" - Superintendent Chalmers visit my livejournal! http://www.livejournal.com/users/illyanadmc From pat_mahony at hotmail.com Thu Nov 14 06:30:52 2002 From: pat_mahony at hotmail.com (The Kirk) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 06:30:52 -0000 Subject: Key points in CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46585 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Risti" wrote: > Also for book two, we have what seems to be an inconsequential DADA > teacher. To me, Gilderoy Lockhart had too major a role to be *just* > comic relief. Look at everyone else who has filled the role. Twice > it turned out to be the enemy in disguise, and the other time it was > a connection to Harry's past, and a strong ally for him. I don't > think we've seen the last of Gilderoy Lockhart. I strongly agree. There are two possible scenarios that I can think of where Lockhart reappears- 1) Harry visits St Mungo's (maybe to see Neville's parents?), and Lockhart is there, or 2) (my personal favourite) Lockhart becomes a Death Eater. Lockhart loves to be loved, and if he thinks Voldemort can give him the power and status he craves, he would join in the blink of an eye. Yes, Gilderoy Lockhart is Ever-So-Evil. He also has what made Pettigrew so useful to Voldemort- he is perceived as being relatively harmless, and now that he has been exposed as a fraud, people will not be intimidated, making him perfect for covert operations. > We also see the best canon evidence for a long lasting fued between > the Malfoy's and the Weasley's. I refuse to believe that that's > inconsequential. I have wild theories about the relationship between > those two families, the most logical and canon based being Imperius > VICTIM!Arthur. I think that that will come up. I think Harry's witnessing of Lucius in Knockturn Alley could lead to Arthur being able to bring down the Malfoys. > Also, Book 2 is when we are introduced to Fawkes. With the next book > being called The Order of the Pheonix, I can't help but think that it > won't just be metaphorical, that Fawkes the Pheonix will in some > crucial way be involved. I agree, Fawkes' exact nature will become of great importance in the later books. > We also find out about Godric Griffyndor's sword. I don't know how > much I buy into Heir theories, but between that and Godric's corner, > which someone else has brought up JKR commenting on recently, > something has to be going on. If you adhere to the Heir of Gryffindor theory, this instance strongly relates to this. Harry is called a "true Gryffindor" perhaps foreshadowing his later role? I think Harry will return to the Chamber of Secrets. So far all we know that was in there was the Basilisk, and a massive statue of Salazar Slytherin. This could foreshadow a similar room that Godric created, or there may be more in the Chamber of Secrets that will help Harry. I think the revelation of Harry as a Parselmouth was also significant, and will be important in later books. I don't recall Harry using this power in PoA or GoF, yet it was of critical importance in CoS. Some things introduced in CoS that have been important in later books- the main ones I can think of are Polyjuice Potion and the nature of House Elfs, there are probably more. Roo, who is extremely relieved/excited/happy to have finally finished his HSC exams, and thus his tenure at school. From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Thu Nov 14 07:00:31 2002 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 07:00:31 -0000 Subject: Scabbers looking to get near Harry In-Reply-To: <00a701c28b4d$759e0c70$2401010a@Frodo> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46586 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "heidi tandy" wrote: > Regina wrote: > It's also possible that he selected the family for those reasons, > and then spent time, over the years, training Ron to be evil AND a > friend to Harry. > > Oh, stop laughing. There's canon support for this. > > In PoA, Sirius' voice is described as sounding unused - as if it was > roughened from long periods of not speaking. > > Peter, on the other hand, doesn't sound that way at all. His voice > is squeaky, but otherwise not far from normal - it certainly isn't > farfetched to think that he's been transforming back into a wizard > at various times - perhaps at the Burrow, perhaps even at Hogwarts, > and either talking to Ron as he sleeps (in a hypnotic suggestion > sort of way), or even face to face (although that would require > believing that Ron was pretending when he was horified in the > Shack). > > And he could've told him all sorts of things, about the wonder of > Voldemort and how good things would be for Ron if he helped the > Death Eaters when the time was right, etc. Ron complains much more > about poverty and having so much that's rubbish in Book 4, after > Wormtail no longer has the access to influence him. > We take Sirius' and Remus' word for it that Pettigrew wouldn't do > anything to hurt Harry if he didn't know for sure that he'd be > supported by the bully in his corner. But that doesn't mean that he > wouldn't do a little seeding of the ground himself. > One minor flaw in this theory - Wormtail wasn't Ron's rat until Percy became a prefect and got Hermes. As far as we know, until then Wormtail was Percy's rat. So if Wormtail was turning someone ever-so-evil, it would be more likely that he was feeding Percy's ambition, and guiding him towards getting a high up job in the ministry, to be well positioned to help Voldemort. Under this theory, he could even have been working with Percy in GoF, when Percy was supposedly getting orders from Crouch. OTOH, Ron seemed awfully succeptable to Imperio in GoF. Perhaps he had been put under it by Wormtail in the past? --Arcum From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Nov 14 05:36:35 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:36:35 -0600 Subject: The return of Mad-Eye Moody? References: Message-ID: <3DD33663.4C88A911@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46587 I have a feeling, that we have not seen the last of Mad-Eye Moody. Why? Well, even though he said he would only be teaching for a year, it was not in fact HIM! So, he still owes Dumbledore a year, since I doubt he will just let Crouch get away with teaching HIS classes. A since of ethics may make him want to teach the year of classes he promised. Also. There is no going back to a 'quiet retirement' now that the cat is out of the bag (Voldemort is back). He is a high profile target for the Death Eaters, as he put many of them in Azkaban, so he is safer at Hoggswarts then at home. Dumbledore needs all the people he can get on his side. I don't think Mad-Eye would turn him down easily if asked to stay or he would ask to fulfill his obligations that were thwarted by Crouch. Or perhaps he would join Sirius, Lupin and the others who Dumbledore is calling on for help, though not in teaching roles. Besides, why create a potentially interesting character and toss him? Crouch was using Mad-Eye to make sure he fooled everyone into thinking it was him, so the real Mad-Eye must be pretty close to the playacting Crouch. Or maybe I am looking forward to more bouncing ferrets? ;) Jazmyn From kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 06:17:28 2002 From: kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com (kateydidnt2002) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 06:17:28 -0000 Subject: Classes with Ravenclaw? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46588 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., illyana delorean wrote: > Was Padma ever mentioned before this conversation? If not, the reason > Parvati went into such detail was probably that JK wanted everyone to > know that Parvati and Padma are twins and that Padma is a Ravenclaw. > Either that or Parvati thinks Ron is an idiot. Good point, Padma is only mentioned in the first book and we don't even find her first name there: when Harry is waiting to be sorted and hearing the names it says "a pair of twin girls,'Patil' and 'Patil'" (US paperback 121) or Parvati could just think Ron is an idiot (or perhaps HArry because she is talking to him...) but either way-wether or not the Gryffindors are in any classes with Ravenclaw, i hope to see more interaction with them in future books. Kateydidnt From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 06:41:41 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 06:41:41 -0000 Subject: Wand-free magic/Eyes/life-debts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46589 Well, for one thing, wizards *have* been using magic without a wand - before the wand was invented at least. Most of them didn't have enough power/focus to be able to do so without one at the late BeforeWand-period(but Mr Ollivander who made the first wands must have...). Animagi is also the kind of magic one just must do without a wand. And what comes to Harry using wandless magic -- well, *his* magic without a wand at least seems to be more focused than Neville's *with* a wand. However, wand-free magic Harry's done without his wand after entering Hogwarts happened as Harry *lost control* and as Marge insulted his mother (and father). I think it's the fact that Harry has unpayable life-debt to his mother that triggered that magic... Eyes: Well... 'Eyes are the mirror of the soul', Seers (True Seers are rare-- but it seems to me that Harry is one, he just doesn't know that yet. He did see buckbeak free in the Crystal Ball, after all). Also, ever since Book #1 we've known that jinxes require keeping the eye-contact. As great as wizarding magic is (growing bones back no less), they can't fix eyes... Yes, there's definately something about Harry having Lily's eyes... (We've seen use of the fact that Harry looks extra-ordinarily like his father with the Time-Turner). Life-debts... Some are payable, like one Justin F-F to Harry. Snape's debt was payable but he failed to pay it. PP's life-debt is also payable-- as well as Ginny's.. Yet, some are unpayable... Harry's in his mother's debt (and it was unpayable from start because it was her death that saved Harry) And, (was it Justin) who was saved by a *ghost* from the basilisk! Is there a difference? Could an unpayable or otherwise unpaid life-debt take over control of a wizard's magic in some specific situations? Like that the magic *will* act in the creditors defence, no matter what the debtor thinks of it. Or perhaps, that at least a life-debt that *was* payable but remained unpaid, forms a binding magical contract that requires the one owing the debt to devote the rest of his life to do whatever it was the creditor was about to do when it happened... So that Snape MUST hold Voldemort back just as much as Harry had no choice but to do his best to win the tri-wizard-cup. If anyone can justly accuse someone for not respecting the life-debt - as Harry did to Snape and Lupin to Harry-- well, I guess that *will* make one feel worse than any other chastisement could... Anyway, I *do* think that life-debt acts as some sort of binding magical contract. -- Finwitch From conquistas2000 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 07:02:16 2002 From: conquistas2000 at yahoo.com (conquistas2000) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 07:02:16 -0000 Subject: Key points in CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46590 I always wondered about the Masons from the CoS, and if there's something more to them. For all the secrecy of the wizard world, they (MoM) are awfully careless about hiding it from the Masons (Muggles? or not?) with the owl post (Underage Magic notice). I think the Masons probably know about the wizarding world, or will be (muggle-born progeny). Thus, MoM didn't bother to be more careful about how and timing of the owl post. Conquistas - Who's re-reading CoS From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 07:13:00 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 07:13:00 -0000 Subject: Key points in CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46591 --- Roo wrote: > I agree, Fawkes' exact nature will become of great importance in > the later books. Indeed. PS we know Harry and Voldemort have Phoenix-wands from the *same* Phoenix. In CoS, Harry's *true loyalty to Dumbledore* invites Fawkes to him and the little Phoenix is of great help -- saving Harry's life, no less. (I think Harry's Mom-died-for-me protection had for most part, worn out and he didn't really have it when Voldemort wanted it!) GoF... The Brother-wands, Phoenix-song and Phoenix-tears all have a role. However, Loyalty of Phoenix is something that hasn't played a part since CoS... Perhaps Order of the Phoenix will? > If you adhere to the Heir of Gryffindor theory, this instance > strongly relates to this. Harry is called a "true Gryffindor" perhaps > foreshadowing his later role? > > I think Harry will return to the Chamber of Secrets. So far all we > know that was in there was the Basilisk, and a massive statue of > Salazar Slytherin. This could foreshadow a similar room that > Godric created, or there may be more in the Chamber of Secrets > that will help Harry. I think the revelation of Harry as a > Parselmouth was also significant, and will be important in later > books. I don't recall Harry using this power in PoA or GoF, yet it > was of critical importance in CoS. Significant indeed. First GOOD Parcelmouth of all times, isn't he? A Parcelmouth who's also a true Gryffindor? That makes Harry as unique as his surviving the Killing-curse. He's also those one of the few people who do say 'Voldemort' with ease. I'm positive that the Old Crowd does, at least Dumbledore, Sirius Black and Remus Lupin do. > Some things introduced in CoS that have been important in later > books- the main ones I can think of are Polyjuice Potion and the > nature of House Elfs, there are probably more. The Whomping Willow was rather significant in PoA. Perhaps the turqoise, Flying Ford Anglia will also (At least, it is CoS and mentioned in both PoA and GoF). -- Finwitch From anglinsbees at yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 09:20:01 2002 From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:20:01 -0000 Subject: ( Filk ) It's not Easy Being Mean + a Filk Challenge! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46592 It's Not Easy being Mean A Filk By Ellen Anglin to the tune of "It's not Easy Being Green" (lyrics by Joe Rapposo) For Lucius Malfoy It's not that easy being mean, Spending every day pretending "Cruel" is not your scene, When it would be so much nicer hexing muggles, torturing mudbloods, And making them kiss your feet! It's not easy being mean, No one appreciates, just how hard it's been, Building power within the Ministry, reputation and status Since the Dark Lord's been gone . So mean's the way I get my thrills, And mean's a means to my ends, And mean can be such a sweet feeling, when you're bashing a Weasley, Or kicking an Elf! So what if mean makes people wince? When Voldie's Emperor, then I'll be a Dark Prince, It's no wonder that I'm mean, and it'll do fine, it's Wicked! And it's exactly what I want to be! Filksters note, and a Challenge!: This was tricky- the Origianl doesn't really rhyme, and lines are stretched and compacted like crazy.- I indulged myself and inserted some rhymes, and on a few lines, varied the structure a bit. It was actully harder to Filk a free form song like this than one with a tight structure, so please forgive me! Now, this song begs for a variation- One for Severus! I throw down the Gauntlet, and Challenge someone to reprise this for Severus Snape! Draco would also probably have his own version of this anthem, and Voldies version probably starts out "It's so easy being Mean!"- If anyone feels inspired, feel free to extend this filk with my blessings! Ellen, the Pottering Beekeeeper From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 08:18:41 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:18:41 -0000 Subject: Scabbers looking to get near Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46593 Arcum wrote: > > One minor flaw in this theory - Wormtail wasn't Ron's rat until Percy > became a prefect and got Hermes. As far as we know, until then > Wormtail was Percy's rat. So if Wormtail was turning someone > ever-so-evil, it would be more likely that he was feeding Percy's > ambition, and guiding him towards getting a high up job in the > ministry, to be well positioned to help Voldemort. Under this theory, > he could even have been working with Percy in GoF, when Percy was > supposedly getting orders from Crouch. > > OTOH, Ron seemed awfully succeptable to Imperio in GoF. Perhaps he had > been put under it by Wormtail in the past? Imperius Curse. Hmm... Well, he could have worked most of them (except that Arthur was at work and obsessed with Muggle devices; Bill&Charlie being abroad). Working Percy to be *obedient* of rules and feeding his ambitions (I suppose it's hard to resist Imperius on something you actually think you should do). Fred&George... I think Pettigrew *told* them how to operate the map, thus bribing them not to tell who he really was... Ron-- Perhaps. By doing absolutely nothing, thus being a lowsy pet, putting him under imperius and thus instruct him with his mind... Ginny? A suggestion NOT to tell McGonagall about the Odd Book but to use it instead... -- Finwitch From cressida_tt at hotmail.com Thu Nov 14 09:06:26 2002 From: cressida_tt at hotmail.com (Diane) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:06:26 -0000 Subject: Key points in CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46594 Another possible key event in CoS could be: Harry saves Ginny Weasley's life thereby creating a wizard's bond and life debt between the two of them in the same way that a bond was created with Peter Pettigrew when Harry spared him. It would seem more likely to me to be something like this rather than a popularly supposed romance between these two characters during the period of cannon. Diane From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu Nov 14 13:05:24 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:05:24 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Glimmer In His Eye Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46595 Glimmer In His Eye (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Devil In Her Heart_ by...guess...go ahead, guess. Hey! You're right! The Beatles) Dedicated to Tiara http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle03.html Harry: He had a glimmer in his eye And Sirius exclaimed vehemently When I told them both that night Those things that had happened to me I told Dumbledore About Voldemort And the bone, flesh and blood Wormtail cut me And he made me bleed Then resurrected Voldy He had a glimmer in his eye Yes, yes, yes, I'd say they really gleamed And it left me wondering why What does it all really mean? He quickly jumped up, it startled me so He moved so fast for a person who's so old I pulled up my sleeve So they could both see The wound that Wormtail'd given me He had a glimmer in his eye Oh, yes, yes, a look of triumph it seemed But then the next moment he sighed And looked just as old and weary Was his elation imagination? It happened so quickly Maybe it could be The ultimate key To our final victory He had a glimmer in his eye Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes that's what I perceived What was on Dumbledore's mind? Does he think that we'll succeed? He had a glimmer in his eye What does it all really mean? He had a glimmer in his eye Will someone out there tell me, please? -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Nov 14 13:28:38 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:28:38 EST Subject: (Filk) It's not Easy Wearing Green (was) Re: ( Filk ) It's not Easy Being Mean Message-ID: <1c2.186c72e.2b04ff06@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46596 >It's Not Easy being Mean > >A Filk By Ellen Anglin to the tune of >"It's not Easy Being Green" (lyrics by Joe Rapposo) > >For Lucius Malfoy > Now, this song begs for a variation- One for Severus! I throw down > the Gauntlet, and Challenge someone to reprise this for Severus > Snape! I've had this in the back of my mind for some time. As Ellen says, it poses a challenge, hence my not finishing it until the gauntlet was down - thanks for that! I've also cheated, but by remaining a little closer to the original than Ellen and...um...borrowing from it a bit more. Severus at the Quidditch Cup Final..... 'Behind the Slytherin goalposts, however, two hundred people were wearing green...and Professor Snape sat in the very front row, wearing green like everyone else, and a very grim smile.' (POA, UK PB, 225). Now you know why! It's not that easy wearing green When I'd rather wear my usual black weeds; They lend an air of menace to my mien And bring out the colour of my eyes. It's not that easy wearing green. It seems you blend in with all the other Slytherins. And people tend to pass you over 'cause you're not standing out Like a flashy DADA teacher - or a show-off Gryffindor. But green is the colour of my house. And green can be serpentine and sinister. And green can be dangerous, like a dragon, or deadly like a poison, or (N0!)...Like Potter's eyes. When green is all there is to wear It could make you wonder why, but why wonder why? Wonder, I wear green and it'll do fine: I'm a Slytherin! And I think it's what I want to be. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidit at netbox.com Thu Nov 14 15:32:14 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidi tandy) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 10:32:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Scabbers looking to get near Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c28bf3$029ea3a0$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 46597 > -----Original Message----- > From: arcum42 [mailto:Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com] > > One minor flaw in this theory - Wormtail wasn't Ron's rat until Percy > became a prefect and got Hermes. As far as we know, until then > Wormtail was Percy's rat. So if Wormtail was turning someone > ever-so-evil, it would be more likely that he was feeding Percy's > ambition, and guiding him towards getting a high up job in the > ministry, to be well positioned to help Voldemort. Under this theory, > he could even have been working with Percy in GoF, when Percy was > supposedly getting orders from Crouch. It's entirely possible - I actually do agree with this theory, probably because it doesn't preclude the Wormtail Taught Ron About Evil Or Possibly Hypnotized Him (and hey, can I get an acronym for this?) - it actually supports it. This gave Wormtail access to Percy's wand when Ron was about 6 years old, which might've made it easier to bespell him. How hard could it have been to, when everyone was asleep, to sneak from one room to the other? He had tremendous access to all the Weasleys - and I think that Ron's not telling his parents who Scabbers really was, at the end of PoA, is going to come back to him as a boondoggle in future books. I mean, the Weasleys, who are part of Dumbledore's Old Crowd, had a Death Eater in their house for about five years, full time (until Percy went to school) and then on holidays for another four years (counting up until the beginning of PoA, as Ron didn't go home that whole year). Who really knows how much Wormtail observed about the Weasleys, about their home security measures (if any) and about their day to day lives? In contrast, how likely is it that Wormtail bragged to Voldemort about his connection to Mr Crouch's assistant in and before GoF? Wouldn't that have been a boon to their success? > > OTOH, Ron seemed awfully succeptable to Imperio in GoF. Perhaps he had > been put under it by Wormtail in the past? Hm. I'm not really sure that Ron was more succeptible than anyone else in the class but it's an interesting point as well. Heidi From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 16:49:06 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:49:06 -0000 Subject: JKR Said Mad-Eye Would Return (WAS: The return of Mad-Eye Moody?) In-Reply-To: <3DD33663.4C88A911@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46598 Jazmyn wrote: > I have a feeling, that we have not seen the last of Mad-Eye Moody. Now me: I'm starting to feel a bit embarrassed about having not only the books memorized, but all of the JKR interviews as well... October 20, 2000 Barnes & Noble Chat: Q: "Is the real Moody ever going to be in the books? And is he as cool as the impostor Moody?" JKR: "The real Moody is even cooler! Yes, Harry will see him again." And the link: http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/October_2000_Live_Chat_Barnes _Noble.htm If the real Moody is "even cooler" than Fake!Moody, I can't wait to meet him! ~Phyllis who saw a real live ferret with her kids at a children's museum last weekend, and could easily visualize it being Draco From lizgiz1980 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 17:48:22 2002 From: lizgiz1980 at yahoo.com (Ms Lizard Gizzard) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:48:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Key points in CoS In-Reply-To: <018c01c28b93$0d8887a0$b8a0cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <20021114174822.43460.qmail@web41212.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46599 --- Richelle Votaw wrote: > Any other thoughts on the matter? I think Harry's early relationship with Tom Riddle will be revealed. The fact that he recognizes the name like that of a favorite uncle seems to be a clue. -Liz (the Lurker) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From msbonsai at mninter.net Thu Nov 14 18:12:18 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:12:18 -0000 Subject: She also said Gilderoy would return: was: JKR Said Mad-Eye Would Return In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46600 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > I'm starting to feel a bit embarrassed about having not only the > books memorized, but all of the JKR interviews as well... > > October 20, 2000 Barnes & Noble Chat: > Q: "Is the real Moody ever going to be in the books? And is he as > cool as the impostor Moody?" > JKR: "The real Moody is even cooler! Yes, Harry will see him again." > And the link: http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/October_2000_Live_Chat_Barnes > _Noble.htm > If the real Moody is "even cooler" than Fake!Moody, I can't wait to > meet him! > ~Phyllis Phyllis, you're not alone, and I'm so glad you brought it up :o) http://www.mugglenet.com/bbcinterview1.shtml Now in an interview you said that Forenze, the Centaur, was based on a friend of yours-- but we've hardly seen anything of Forenze. Well, just keep your eyes open. And the Centaurs Prophecy at the end of Philosophers Stone He'll come back-- enough said. Not everyone has read book four. And Gilderoy Lockhart, one of my favourite characters Gilderoy, bless him, is still in Saint Mungo's hospital for magical ailments and injuries, `cos his memory's just gone. So I'm making no promises about Gilderoy. Was he good fun to write, because he's the opposite of everything you wanted to be? Fantastic fun to write. The best one ever. I loved writing Gilderoy, but I've got Rita now you see. I love writing Rita in the same way that I loved writing Gilderoy. There you go :o) She made no promises not to bring back Gilderoy . . and Firenze . . . so . . . is the magical place that has been mentioned . . ST. Mungos??? Julie From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Nov 14 18:30:07 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 10:30:07 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Scabbers looking to get near Harry In-Reply-To: <000001c28bf3$029ea3a0$0301a8c0@Frodo> References: <000001c28bf3$029ea3a0$0301a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: <2739372875.20021114103007@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46601 Hi, Thursday, November 14, 2002, 7:32:14 AM, heidi wrote: > He had tremendous access to all the Weasleys - and > think that Ron's not telling his parents who Scabbers really was, at > the > end of PoA, is going to come back to him as a boondoggle in future > books. You don't think Dumbledore, who knows the story, would have let the Weasleys know about Scabbers/Pettigrew? I can't imagine him *not* thinking of the possibilities and warning Arthur and Molly. Otherwise I'd consider this a grave oversight on Dumbledore's part. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From obby at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Nov 14 18:39:34 2002 From: obby at blueyonder.co.uk (Richard Thorp) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:39:34 +0000 Subject: CoS Plot... Message-ID: <86612777531.20021114183934@blueyonder.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 46602 Hi all :) Having seen TMTMNBN and all the discussion about it on the movie group, something was jogged out of the long term storage bit of my mind... How can the underlying plot of CoS make sense? I say this after a few assumptions, but reasonable ones, the main one being that Voldemort would not share power. Ever. With anyone. He's not the sort of evil overlord that would even want another version of himself taking over, I recon, unless he was an integral part of that person... This leads to my question.. Diary!Voldemort would be a serparate entity to Spirit!Voldemort, without the "official" Voldemorts memories... Unless the magic of the diary works in some different way that we don't know about. Basically, even if RiddleMort had survived to become a human again, what would Spirit!Voldie done? Would he have been able to posess RiddleMort? Would RiddleMort even let him? I recon no. But in any case: Voldemort would literally have given power away from himself (albeit to a version of himself), which is totally out of his character. Apart from that, how would Diary!Voldie have known/been that powerful with Dark Magic at that point in his life? Maybe it was just the illusion he put forth of being uber-powerful. Anyway, I'd like to hear some opinions on this :) Even if they're in the form of shouting me down for some huge lack of thinking :) -Rich msn: obbles at hotmail.com From tracey.burkhardt at gnb.ca Thu Nov 14 17:15:49 2002 From: tracey.burkhardt at gnb.ca (iwishiwerehermione) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:15:49 -0000 Subject: Relatives in the same house, WAS: Classes with Ravenclaw? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46603 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., illyana delorean wrote: > > Was Padma ever mentioned before this conversation? If not, the > reason > > Parvati went into such detail was probably that JK wanted everyone > to > > know that Parvati and Padma are twins and that Padma is a > Ravenclaw. I thought this was interesting in light of the posts of late that discuss how people who are related end up in the same house. For example, the Weasleys, the Malfoys, or the assumption that James was a Gryffindor. Has anyone taken a look at this idea before? Do we have a plausible explanation for why TWINS would not be in the same house? --iwishiwerehermione (who needs to get back to work) From rachelday at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Nov 14 18:06:12 2002 From: rachelday at blueyonder.co.uk (rachel day) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:06:12 -0000 Subject: British education system WAS [HPforGrownups] Re: How Twenty is Twenty? References: <3DD2D7F2.A6566010@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <00d101c28c08$a3d57ea0$19ac30d5@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 46604 I've been reading the discussions on Harry's classes and feel that I have to step in. I think some of you might be getting confused because of the differences between the American and English education system. Jazmyn wrote: >There is no solid evidence that all classes are required to be taken >every single year either, since it might well be tailored for each >'major' and we are only seeing mostly kids who are just doing general >glasses and not majoring in anything or all have the same major. British schools don't have 'majors'. People pick speciality courses when they go to University, (the equivalent to American colleges I think...18+) but not really in normal school. Classes must be continued in the British education system, (I am assuming that JKR is going along the same frame for Hogwarts)if a student chooses a subject one year (like Harry chose Divination for one of his OWL's) then that subject must be carried on. It is a two year course. (though IIRC the OWL course is a three year one)Students cannot change every year as there will have been two much work missed. >There >might be a certain number of credits required in some fields to >graduate Again, English schools don't have a graduation ceremony like American schools do. Like Hogwarts, we start at year 7(age 11) and can continue until the end of year 11 (age 16). In the summer of Year 11 students take their GCSE's (General Certificate of Secondary Education) - the equivalent to OWL's. After year 11 students can choose to leave school if they so wish and get a job. (I think it was discussed that Stan Shunpike left after he got his OWL's to work on the Knightbus). Others choose to go on to college or Sixth Form (ages 16 - 18) where they take their 'A'Levels (Advanced levels, as opposed to 'O'- Ordinary - Levels, the old name for GCSE's). In the past few years there have been some changes to the 'A' level system, students now take a course of the AS and carry on to get a full 'A' Level with the A2 course. (but I don't think its really relevant that I go into that). There is no criteria, or 'credits' required to graduate. Students can leave regardless of their grades, although it goes without saying that the better grades they get the better chance they have of getting a job. The 'A' level is the Muggle equivalent of NEWTs. >> those lessons that not everyone takes are >> optional >> classes, chosen by them at the end of the second year. At my school we picked our 'Options' at the end of Year 9 (3rd year) I don't know if it was just my school who did it then. It isn't really important I suppose, Hogwarts may just have a different system ;)There are certain subjects that we had to carry on with (there were also some things that may have varied from school to school I think, a lot of it depends on timetabling and teacher availability) such as English, Maths, Science, PE etc. Subjects such as History we could chose to drop, or carry on with. There were also new subjects available such as Sociology and Sports Studies. Like the trio hadn't done Divination before. >Harry must have bad luck getting into optional classes before they are >filled if he keeps ending up in Divination. Students cannot change their optional subjects if they get bored of it. Harry chose Divination and so must carry it through to get an OWL in it. Hermione was allowed to quit because she really didn't like the subject. This can happen in Muggle schools although it is generally frowned upon, students are encouraged to stick it out. However, I doubt that Hermione would have been able to just walk out in real life. And she wouldn't have been able to pick up another subject halfway through the year - there would be too much work to catch up on. Students wishing to drop a class must talk to their subject teachers, their form teachers (I think that's like the American home-room), and their head of year. This is all because, as I aid, the student is encouraged to stick it out, but if they really are unhappy in the subject they can drop it. Most of the time students change their minds about a subject early on in the year, and so would be allowed to pick up another one, as not too much work has been missed. Also, I alsways thought of 'double lessons' as being a double period. On Mondays and Tuesdays I have 'double Science, meaning I have two hours worth of Science, instead of one, one hour lesosn. I don't know whether this has caused confusion because it is simply not a term used in America, or whether people have just interperated it differently. I apologise if i have repeated anything that has already been posted. But i felt had to put my two knuts in :) I hope that I've cleared up any remaining confusion. regards, Rachel, long time lurker, first time poster. ~*~* "It's better to be hated for who you are than loved for who you aren't." *~*~ From talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 18:32:19 2002 From: talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com (Darla) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:32:19 -0000 Subject: James' Occupation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46605 Hello all, I was flipping through some old clippings I'd collected of Harry Potter articles earlier on today, and I came across a small interview with J.K.Rowling in an old copy of the Shropshire Star (our local paper). In it a question was asked about James' occupation (something we're all dying to find out about, I'm sure) and she replied by saying; "Well I can't go into too much detail, because you're going to find out in future books. But James inherited plently of money, so he didn't need a well-paid profession. You'll find out more about both Harry's parents later." This was published on Thursday November 8th 2001 in the Shropshire Star. What do you think? Any thoughts on what this job could be? I apologise to all those who knew this info already, I was just so excited to discover this! Darla. From talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 18:49:38 2002 From: talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com (Darla) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:49:38 -0000 Subject: CoS Plot... In-Reply-To: <86612777531.20021114183934@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46606 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Richard Thorp wrote: How can the underlying plot of CoS make sense? I say this after a few > assumptions, but reasonable ones, the main one being that Voldemort > would not share power. Ever. With anyone. He's not the sort of evil > overlord that would even want another version of himself taking over, > I reckon, unless he was an integral part of that person... > ***************** Good point, but the way I always thought of it is that he was *sixteen* (or roundabout that age, forgive me for not having my book available to check the exact age) when he created his diary self, and I believe Voldemort had enough of an ego even then to believe himself to be pretty great even at that age. We've all looked back and laughed at ourselves at times, but back when we *were* that age... he wouldn't be thinking that he'd been sharing power with his younger self because the only 'self' he could relate to was the sixteen year old boy in the diary. Darla. From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Thu Nov 14 18:54:59 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:54:59 -0000 Subject: the diary, voldemort and malfloy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46607 Hi everyone, I've been reading the speculations about COS and the consequences of Riddle's diary and here are my two cents. I agree with those who believe that Voldemort would not want to share power with anyone, even a version of himself, therefore, why allow the diary to be made and then let it get out of control. Now, MAGIC DISHWASHER believes that it was all part of a grand plot between Dumbledore on one side and Voldemort and Luious Malfoy on the other to bring Voldemort back. But the whole action in COS, the basilisk and all, does nothing to achieve that and throws away what could be a powerful tool to help Voldemort when he is finally restored. A deadly beast inside his enerny's cidital, what more could he ask for? Here's my theory: Malfoy Snr. gave Ginny the diary deliberately so that there would be a version of Voldemort that would not know that Malfoy effectively betrayed Voldemort or would come into conflict with the real Voldemort. This offers Malfoy the chance to discover which one is mostly likely to win and support him enough in the hope that he won't be punished for his betrayal. In the event of DiaryVoldemort taking up where his past self left off, Malfoy could support him to the hilt and claim (if the real voldemort returned) that he had no idea what he was doing. On the other hand, diaryVoldemort might be able to destroy SpirtVoldemort, therefore saving malfoy from the possibility of revenge. Thoughts? Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 19:22:43 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:22:43 -0000 Subject: There are Loads of Clues in CoS (WAS: Key points in CoS) In-Reply-To: <018c01c28b93$0d8887a0$b8a0cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46608 Richelle ("Richelle Votaw") wrote: > Okay, according to The Leaky Cauldron, Filmforce had an interview with JKR. They quote her as saying: > > "Key things happen in book two. No one knows how important those things are... yet. There's a lot in there. And I know how difficult it was to get it all in there without drawing too much attention to the clues." > > So, what are they?!? Now me: CoS was my least favorite of all of the books until I re-read it enough times to realize just how many fabulous clues JKR provided to us in Book 2. It's neat to hear her say it! I firmly believe in the "Harry as Heir of Gryffindor" theory, and I think that there are many clues in CoS that support this theory. In CoS, Fawkes, who I believe to have once been Gryffindor's phoenix (see an essay I wrote on this for more information if you're interested: http://www.i2k.com~svanderark/lexicon/essay-fawkes.html), helps Harry fight the basilisk. In legend, the griffin was believed to be the "adversary of serpent and basilisks, both of which were seen as embodiments of satanic demons" (from the What's in a Name website ? paraphrased from the Dictionary of Symbolism). I believe this to be a parallel to Gryffindor's Fawkes and Slytherin's basilisk, and perhaps a clue to a possible good-against-evil fight between Gryffindor and Slytherin 1,000 years ago. When I brought this up once before, Judy Shapiro added her theory that this could also be a foreshadowing of Harry's eventual defeat of Voldemort. Other clues in CoS that support the "Fawkes was once Gryffindor's phoenix" theory are that Fawkes lives in Dumbledore's office, which has a griffin-shaped doorknocker, and also contains Gryffindor's sword and the Sorting Hat, which we learn in GoF was once Gryffindor's hat. In support of the "Harry as Heir of Gryffindor" theory, in CoS, Fawkes brings two items previously owned by Gryffindor to Harry's aid in the Chamber - the Sorting Hat and the sword. And it's in CoS that we first learn that Gryffindor's first name was "Godric", and can make the connection to the Potters living in Godric's Hollow. In addition, if you parallel the life of St. Godric with Harry, there are all sorts of connections which support the Heir of Gryffindor theory - there are legends about St. Godric protecting a hunted stag which parallel the workings of the Fidelius Charm (and of course, the stag is both James' animagus and Harry's patronus), and St. Godric, like Harry, was able to know of events happening at great distances. There was another clue on a different topic that I was going to raise, which was that in Ch. 3, at the Burrow, "Harry just caught sight of a pair of bright *green* eyes staring at him before it closed with a snap." The "bright green eyes" are Ginny's, and this reference made me wonder whether whether there might be a relationship between Ginny's green eyes and Harry's green eyes. However, this reference is from the US version; when I pulled out my UK version today to find the quote for this post, I see that it reads "bright *brown* eyes." Very curious, indeed! ~Phyllis From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 19:52:18 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:52:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CoS Plot... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021114195218.95791.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46609 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Richard Thorp wrote: How can the underlying plot of CoS make sense? I say this after a few assumptions, but reasonable ones, the main one being that Voldemort would not share power. Ever. With anyone. He's not the sort of evil overlord that would even want another version of himself taking over, I reckon, unless he was an integral part of that person... ***************** Darla wrote: Good point, but the way I always thought of it is that he was *sixteen* (or roundabout that age, forgive me for not having my book available to check the exact age) when he created his diary self, and I believe Voldemort had enough of an ego even then to believe himself to be pretty great even at that age. We've all looked back and laughed at ourselves at times, but back when we *were* that age... he wouldn't be thinking that he'd been sharing power with his younger self because the only 'self' he could relate to was the sixteen year old boy in the diary. Me: I think, considering that the young Tom Riddle had no way of knowing when or by whom the diary might be found and used, he probably thought it might be so far in the future that he cold have died already (having no idea that he would go further toward immortality than anyone else ever had). This would, in a way, give him another life. An even better question is what Lucius Malfoy hoped to accomplish. Was it merely enmity toward the Weasleys that prompted him to give Ginny the diary? Did he know that there was the possibility that a young Tom Riddle would be walking about in the world? If he did, would he want to be Riddle's servant or master? Did he perhaps think his own son was turning out to be inadequately evil and wanted someone to look up to him who was worthy of helping a new dark lord get a good movement going? Considering that he was upbraiding Draco for his grades, he might have thought that a former Head Boy (and he may also know that Riddle and Voldemort are one and the same) would make a better right hand man than his son. One must also look at some of the results of the diary being used: Hagrid went back to Azkaban, Dumbledore was temporarily removed as headmaster....Lucius could have been planning both of these things from the start. Or was he? There were so many unanswered questions at the end of CoS. You have to wonder why the Malfoy house isn't under surveillance by the Ministry constantly! Their friendship with Fudge may have a lot to do with that. I have to say that I also hope/expect Arthur to bring Lucius down, and I will probably be cheering madly while I am reading, if/when that occurs... --Barb (who does not expect Fudge to be smelling of roses by the end of book 7...) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Nov 14 20:04:55 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:04:55 -0000 Subject: How Twenty is Twenty? In-Reply-To: <3DD2D7F2.A6566010@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46610 Jazmyn wrote: > I disagree as when I went to school, double classes were 90 minute > classes rather then 45 minute classes, double in length, not size. I know that. Since my school didn't segregate the students into houses (although we did have them), a double class was also double in length for me, but that is beside the point. My point was that what *Steve* (NOT JKR) meant by "double" *in the content of that post* was double-house classes. Nothing more and nothing less. > There is no solid evidence that all classes are required to be taken > every single year either, No solid evidence? I have to disagree. Canon point: (CoS, ch. 14, Sp. Ed, liberal translation) "The moment had come to choose optative lessons for the next year[...] - The only thing I want is not having Potions - said Harry. - Impossible - said Ron gloomily -. We'll continue with all the lessons we already have. If not, I would get rid of Defense Against the Dark Arts." So it seems that all the lectures they had in the first and second years (i.e, DADA, Potions, Transfiguration, Charms, History, etc.) are *required* to be taken every year. > since it might well be tailored for each > 'major' and we are only seeing mostly kids who are just doing general > glasses and not majoring in anything or all have the same major. > There might be a certain number of credits required in some fields to > graduate, I have no understanding of what you mean by major in this context, but so far none of the evidence of the WW's education system points towards any sort of "credit" system, nor of the specialization you seem to be speaking of (I'd like to see canon for *that*). AFAIK, the only reasonable asumption on that line is based on the British educational system, which (by extrapolation) says that anyone can leave Hogwarts after the OWL levels to join the working population. Note too that, when Harry asks Percy for help, there is a hint of specialization, but only based around those three optional classes they have to get, and how he should choose whatever he's good at. >judging by Ron's insistance that they keep their old > subjects.. Re-read that scene, you've got it all wrong: Ron does *not* insist that they keep their old subjects: he especificly mentions that he would like to drop DADA, but that they *can't*, because they can only choose *new* lessons from a list, not drop subjects they're already taking. > Seems like every class has two houses represented in it, wiether > double (length) or not. Wrong again. There is absolutely no canon that points towards two houses in Charms, Transfiguration or DADA. Logic implies that no-one can prove a negative, so it's a difficult to make a case out of a comment is not in the books - that is, Harry thinking "Oh, I like Charms, because there are no Slytherins here" (unless I've missed it). There is, however, the fact that there is no metion of any of those classes ever being taught with another house, while JKR is careful to mention, at least once per book, the fact that Potions, Herbology, CoMC, and even the single lesson of flight had been taught with another house. There is also circunstancial evidence. For example, Ron mentions in PS that Snape is reputed to favour Slytherins, and points out that they would discover if it's true on the first Potions lesson. Harry then comments that he wished McGonagal would favour them, since the fact that they were Gryffindors hadn't stopped her from giving lots of homework in the first transfiguration lesson. If they were with another class, Harry would've worded that differently, in the lines of "as much homework as such-and-such house that was with them". Obvioulsy, this isn't necesarily the case, but as that reasoning any number can be done all along the four books. And the acumulation of circunstancial evidence is as good as direct evidence. > Harry must have bad luck getting into optional classes before they > are filled if he keeps ending up in Divination. Maybe he is also just > following Percy's suggestions. If Divination was 'required', then > Hermione could not drop out of it. Or he is lousy at figuring out > how to pick his classes or just randomly picks them to get it over > with, like Dean Thomas did. You asume that, once chosen the optionals, they can be changed. This is not necesarily the case, by what can be seen on the books. Hermione *drops* some of the classes because she feels too tired of trying to take 6 or so lessons at the same time. None of the others seem to have been able to change their options after third year, although Hermione does mention that they should've changed to aritmancy with her. This, however, is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Also, I'm not sure of why you bring up that Divination is 'required'. I'm pretty sure I have never even *hinted* in that direction. I know perfectly well that Divination is an optative lesson and I've never said otherwise. > Or maybe the class is a pre-req for a class he really wanted? If they are, why didn't he consider the otions in that chapter of GoF? Harry is an intelligent guy, and so is most of his friends. You'd think that someone would've brought up the fact that "if you get Divination know, you'll be able to study Scrying in 6th year", especially Percy that was trying to be helpful. When something is not in the books you can of course try and find plausible reasoning to include it in one of your theories, but it won't constitute canon (and most of the time will be quite shacky). > What excuse for Binns? He doesn't eat, why would he want to sit in > at meals? Can he sit in? Would he just keep embarrassingly sinking > through the chair into the floor, being a ghost? ;) The excuse for Binns cannot be re-used: we are told by Harry that he's the only ghost teacher, so there aren't any other "unknown" teachers that Harry has not seen because they are dead and thus don't have to eat (I discount off-hand the idea of a vampiric teacher, since parents hed enought trouble with a teacher that would try to bite their children one week out of four). What I meant is that there are only so many excuses for *not* attending the feasts, and since Binns uses one and Trelawney uses another (doesn't like the crowds), there aren't that many other teachers that we haven't heard of becuase they don't attend meals (unless they all happen to be frightened of crouds, like Trelawney. And, as I said, that wears a little thin as an excuse after the first one). > Or the room isn't wide enough for a staff table that fits everyone, > so only certain ones sit there. Filch doesn't sit there either, but > he is not a professor, but an employee. There is indeed a theory that states that there are any number of teachers Harry hasn't ever mentioned that are subordinated to the ones he has, and that don't rate enough in the school system to be allowed to eat in the table with the rest of the teachers. I find that extremely unlikely myself, not because they eat in another table, but because I cannot believe that there haven't been mentioned as individuals or as institution ("Sometines Snape's helper joined to help the Slytherins with their potions") in four books. Besides, If the teachers have helpers, why did Snape have to teach Lupin's classes during his time of the month? > > I personally discount that there are lessons Harry hasn't told us > > about. After 4 > > years, I find it hard to believe that he has ignored every single > > lesson, homework and exam of a class. > > I doubt it. Rowling is telling a story, not recounting Real Life. > Shes apt to write ANYTHING in that sounds good, wither the fans like > it or not. If she thinks Magic Shop Class or Latin Studies sounds > good, she would include it, even if there was NO mention of it in any > previous books. Shes not done springing new stuff on us yet, by any > means. If she has already told us EVERYTHING about classes at > Hoggwarts, then why bother focusing so much attention on the school > in the first place if shes going to bore people with it being 'same > old thing' after a few books. Note how she sprung the TriWizard > thing on us, when we were thinking there would be more Quiddich? > We never even heard about Ancient Runes and > Muggle Studies till the second book and they are only mentioned in > passing. Yes, JKR springs surprises on us in every book, but one of those surprises is NOT going to be "Harry had been studying Wizard Geography and Italian since first year, but for the first time in five years something interesting enough to wake up had happened". Because we know that he has told us about every one of his classes, even the boring ones like History. The TriWizard competition was introduced, yes, just like the optional classes, but always *before* Harry lived through them. No comments of "Oh, now I understand why everyone was so excited in three years ago when all those weird-sounding people came to pay a call". Harry doesn't mention Ancient Runes or Muggle studies until second year because before that Harry hadn't heard about them. > Could see it now: > > Ron: Look at the fairyhouse I made in Magic Shop Class! Its enchanted to > be big enough on the inside to hold a thousand fairies! Oh, Goyle's > hand got cut off with the magical saw and he is up in the Infirmary > having it magically reattached. Professor Wrenchworth was really angry! > > Harry: Wicked. (turns it over, looking at it from all sides and handing > it back) But how do the fairies get in? > > Ron: (looks at the fairyhouse and blinks) Oh! I don't believe it! I > forgot to make a hole in the front! > > Hermione: (rolls her eyes) Really, Ron! You might see it, but I do not. That is the difference between us. I don't think JKR is the sort of (bad) writter that will introduce a class that has been going in the background just like that. If she wants to introduce "Magic Shop Class", it will be another form of optative, not something Ron has been studying for the last three years without Harry noticing. That's a very cheap form of introducing anything in a book, and JKR hasn't done any of the sort thus far. The oposite is, in fact, the case most of the time: if you look carefully, you can see that she has laid plot points eggs all over the place -like Scabbers, or Sirius' motorbike. Ron didn't suddenly have a rat in PoA for the last eleven years: it was introduced in the first book. And we already know that Sirius had been near the house during the fateful night - or would have, if we had paid attention (which I didn't). > However, Rowling blew everyone's 'head counts' of numbers of students > out of the water when she was asked directly and said 'about a > thousand' > > Either shes got some more classes up her sleeves or when she says > 'twenty', she means a lot more then that.. or maybe there are as many > students as the author NEEDS there to be in any scene, much like how > movies are filmed. > > --Jazmyn-- On the contrary, I feel that Catlady's theory of multiple campus covers quite well JKR's number of 1000 students, while still using the 350 figure, but that is hardly the point, since JKR interviews aren't hard canon. If we wanted to get LOONy about it, we could say that that interview is wrong and that from the evidence contained within the books we know that there cannot be more than 500 students at the castle at this point. Strangely enough, that is somthing very hard to do anyway, since there are situations where the 1000 figure stands. And yet there are some 30-odd students between Gryfindor, Slytherin and Hufflepuff in Harry's year. Which is why I like the multiple campus theory. There is no need for extra classes of any kind to explain what's going on, although you are welcomed to work out a theory around it and provide canon to suport it. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Thu Nov 14 20:16:24 2002 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 14 Nov 2002 20:16:24 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1037304984.260.61704.w39@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46611 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: This poll about your knowledge of MAGIC DISHWASHER is going to help decide whether the theory needs a unifying post to explain the entire theory. The poll will stay open for a month or so, so vote now. o Never heard of MAGIC DISHWASHER o Heard of it, but not interested in a re-cap o Heard of it, and wouldn't mind reading a (extremely long) post about it o I've read most of the threads, so you needn't bother for me o I've managed to follow some of the ideas, but I would like to read it all in one place o I know MAGIC DISHWASHER well enough to know that I could really use a unifying post o I know MAGIC DISHWASHER quite well, and I know where to look for what I don't know o I understand MAGIC DISHWASHER perfectly and need no re-cap whatsoever To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=1002474 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Nov 14 20:47:11 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:47:11 -0000 Subject: New Poll for HP4GU (WAS: the diary, voldemort and malfloy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46612 Christopher Nuttall wrote: > I've been reading the speculations about COS and the consequences of Riddle's diary and here are my two cents. I agree with those who believe that Voldemort would not want to share power with anyone, even a version of himself, therefore, why allow the diary to be made and then let it get out of control. > > Now, MAGIC DISHWASHER believes that it was all part of a grand plot between Dumbledore on one side and Voldemort and Luious Malfoy on the other to bring Voldemort back. But the whole action in COS, the basilisk and all, does nothing to achieve that and throws away what could be a powerful tool to help Voldemort when he is finally restored. A deadly beast inside his enerny's cidital, what more could he ask for? > > Chris Errr... no, MAGIC DISHWASHER doesn't say that. that's only one of the possibilities, but I myself formally accepted another possibility, that there is a fourth player: Lucius that is trying to overthrow Voldemort with his own plans. At any rate, neither form part of the main, basic theory of MAGIC DISHWASHER. Not that I can blame you, Chris: MAGIC DISHWASHER seems to have gotten out of hand (even for the three of us: Pip -creator-, Mel -defender- and my humble self -I supose I could be considered "enforecer"-), which is why we're always hiring. Which brings me to the point that names this post. I have been in contact with the powers that be (in this particular case, Cindy) to set up a new poll in the list (which should pop up around this post, hopefully). It will be a poll about what you feel your knowledge of MAGIC DISHWASHER is (from "never heard of it" to "I know it perfectly") and, even more importantly, if you feel you need a re-cap post. Because, you see, I'm thinking that we might need one. But with the three major MAGIC DISHWASHER threads numbering the posts to be re-read in the hundreds, I'm unwilling to undertake such task unless I feel the list really wants it (I hope you can understand that, and that I'm not coming off as lazy). So, my point is that the poll will be open for about a month, at the end of which I'll see what the general feeling about the post is, what tone it should take, and if enough people are interested for me to make a serius atempt at condensing all the info into something managable. If everything goes according to my plan, the poll shouldn't display names and only admit one position per person (although you can of course change that position as many times as you want for the duration of the poll). Finally, any questions you may have about the poll (although I hope it will be self-explanatory) can be sent to me. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Thu Nov 14 20:54:37 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:54:37 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Poll for HP4GU (WAS: the diary, voldemort and malfloy) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46613 If I may offer a surgestion, why not write up MAGIC DISHWASHER as a word document and send it round, rather than hundreads of emails that will confuse everyone further. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From skelkins at attbi.com Thu Nov 14 21:53:21 2002 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:53:21 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Fantastic Posts And Where To Find Them Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46614 Hi, everyone! While all you Murricans are still eagerly awaiting the CoS movie release, we have an exciting announcement of our own to make. The file of Frequently Asked Questions (also known as the FAQs) has been given a face lift. They have been upgraded, revised, hot-linked, tweaked, expanded, nipped, tucked and -- most important of all -- re-named! That's right. The essays and compilations of many of the fascinating issues members have discussed on the main list will henceforth be called "Fantastic Posts And Where To Find Them." That's "Fantastic Posts" for short. Or "FPs" for even shorter. The Fantastic Posts can be found at: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ Best of all, we have several brand new, never-before-seen Fantastic Posts to unveil. You may now feast your eyes on newly available or revised essays for HPfGU: A History, Mysteries, Pettigrew, Sirius, Snape and the Weasley Family. Not only that, but our newly updated Fantastic Posts site also features those Classic FAQs that you have grown to know and love. But for your viewing enjoyment, we have magically transformed them into Classic Fantastic Posts with hot links to the referenced messages. No more looking up message numbers by hand, one by one; that's all been done for you by our tech wizards. In gratitude for all of their hard work on the Fantastic Posts, the Moderator Team has roped off a special section of the very best CoS movie seats for our Fantastic Posts team. Provided they don't drown in the night while huddled on the pavement in their sleeping bags, they will be given a single box of chocolate-covered almonds to pass around among themselves: Ali Hewison Amandageist Barb Caius Marcius Catherine Coleman Cindy C. Dicentra Eileen LuckyKari Debbie AKA Elfundeb Eloise Gwen Heidi Tandy Jim Ferer Jim Flanagan Joy Kimberly Lexicon Steve Marina Mike AKA Aberforth's Goat Neil Ward Parker Paul Kippes Penny Pip Pippin Porphyria Queer as John Sheryll Simon Siriusgeoloist Tabouli Thank you for your attention, and enjoy the show! Elkins, For The Mods From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 22:33:18 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:33:18 -0000 Subject: Correction of Fawkes Essay Link and Re: James' Occupation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46615 In an earlier post today about the clues in CoS, I had a faulty link to an essay on my theory about Fawkes being Gryffindor's phoenix. The correct link is: http://www.i2k.com/~svanderark/lexicon/essay-fawkes.html My apologies. Darla (talkative_alien_4000) wrote: > I was flipping through some old clippings I'd collected of Harry > Potter articles earlier on today, and I came across a small > interview with J.K.Rowling in an old copy of the Shropshire Star > (our local paper). In it a question was asked about James' > occupation (something we're all dying to find out about, I'm sure) > and she replied by saying; > "Well I can't go into too much detail, because you're going to > find out in future books. But James inherited plently of money, so > he didn't need a well-paid profession. You'll find out more about > both Harry's parents later." > What do you think? Any thoughts on what this job could be? Now me: There's been some speculation that Bowman Wright, the metal-charmer who invented the Golden Snitch, is an ancestor of James Potter, and that James inherited his fortune from Wright's success (since in "Quidditch through the Ages" we're informed that Wright lived in Godric's Hollow, where the Potters were living when Voldemort attacked them). As for James' occupation...since in the scene from the first Movie That Must Not Be Named that JKR approved, the Potters were living as Muggles, it suggests that he had some sort of Muggle occupation (rather than being an Auror, for example). ~Phyllis From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 22:39:23 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:39:23 -0000 Subject: Correction of Fawkes Essay Link - This Time It's Right In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46616 OK, I still got the link wrong in my last post! Here's the correct one (I did check it this time, I promise): http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/essay-fawkes.html My apologies once again. ~Phyllis From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Thu Nov 14 23:01:02 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 23:01:02 -0000 Subject: Snape is NOT a vampire Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46617 Hi, I was considering Snape after reading the FAQs (thanks for those by the way) and I realised that there was a crucial piece of evidence that everyone had missed - Snape is not a vampire. To take from Sherlock Holmes, it was "the curious incident of the dog barking in the night" - "but the dog did not back in the night" - "That was the curious incident." (silver blaze) Now, this would probably not be mentioned in a child's book, but Hermione (and the other forth-year girls) must have started their periods by now. My G/F said that she started at 13, Hermione must have started by now. Now, what does this slightly perverted line of thought lead too? When the girls have their periods, they must smell slightly of blood. Now, most vampire literature has the vampire driven mad by the smell, them having sharper noses than humans, and therefore a vampire would attack the girl, perticuly in the cramped dungeons. If Snape was a vampire, he would be driven mad by the smell, and therefore hermione would have not to attend potions class while she was on, same for the other girls. If this happened, surely hermione would have complained about it (this is the girl who stood up for the house elves), even if it is for her own safety. Also, people would have had a fit at the thought and sent more letters to Dumbledore than were sent complaining about lupin. Thoughts? Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Thu Nov 14 23:02:34 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:02:34 EST Subject: Key info in CoS Message-ID: <29.3131330c.2b05858a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46618 Roo writes; << I think Harry will return to the Chamber of Secrets. So far all we know that was in there was the Basilisk, and a massive statue of Salazar Slytherin. This could foreshadow a similar room that Godric created, or there may be more in the Chamber of Secrets that will help Harry. I think the revelation of Harry as a Parselmouth was also significant, and will be important in later books. I don't recall Harry using this power in PoA or GoF, yet it was of critical importance in CoS. >> Wild thought; (I seem to be getting a lot of those lately.) Basilisks are created artificially. From an egg of more-or-less magical properties (variations in theories preclude a definite statement here) which has been hatched under a toad. We already know the Potterverse has a toad. Which tends never to be where it is supposed to. Has somebody toadnapped Trevor and set him tom hatching a Basilisk? Just wondering... -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Thu Nov 14 23:02:39 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:02:39 EST Subject: Scabbers at Hogwarts Message-ID: <126.1a743b60.2b05858f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46619 Sudden thought; Do we have ANY canon evidence that says Percy did NOT also take Scabbers to Hogwarts? Any at all? He did not take him *Ron's* first year, since he had just gotten a new owl as a perk for being chosen as a Prefect. (I also interpret the cat OR owl OR toad line as simply meaning that a child may bring only ONE pet.) Because Ron's phrasing certainly makes him sound like anoither piece of second-hand school equipment along with Bill's old robes and Charlie's old wand. And if this is the case, Ron was only just was given responsibility for Scabbers. Up to that summer he was Percy's pet. If he was giving sleep training to anyone it would have been Percy. I also believe that Pettigrew deliberately chose to batten on the Weasleys since Arthur's Ministry job and tendency to discuss everything with Molly would give him a link to all the news. If circumstances had ever indicated that it was safe to break cover and take up a new life under an assumed name, he would have been out of there. But unless it was a sure thing, he wasn't budging. And he was fairly comfortable as a rat, so long as he avioded the twins. And he certainly knew Percy well enough to be of help in misleading him with bogus Crouch instructions. -JOdel From speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 14 23:33:01 2002 From: speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com (r f) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 23:33:01 +0000 Subject: A new DEW DROP thought Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46620 Here's a thought about Dumbledore's watch, but there isn't much canon to support it. So far, Dumbledore's watch is the only WW time-piece we've seen in the first four books to have planetary elements. Other clocks talk to people or indicate what someone might be up to, but none have tiny planets moving about on them. Due to the planetary elements that we have not seen on any other wizarding timepiece, I wonder if Dumbledore's watch is a centaur creation. Centaurs are great astronomers as witnessed by the conversations with them in PS/SS. To quote an email from Melody after I first shot this idea past her, she wrote: >The centaurs have to be doing something in that forest besides looking >up, and I am sure Dumbledore has visited them. Once I stopped giggling about centaurs standing motionless all night like huge, hairy sunflowers (moonflowers?), I read the rest of her note. Melody went on to say: >They seem friendly enough. I see a little workshop with Frienze and >Bane working to get the gears just right. They do have opposable thumbs, after all. Frankie PS. Melody-- Glad you like your FRIENDSGOINGNUTS tail-coat!! It is a bangy theory asserted in your last TBAY. It could be, really!! _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Nov 14 23:41:12 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 23:41:12 -0000 Subject: Snape is NOT a vampire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46621 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: . Now, most vampire literature has the vampire driven mad by the smell, them having sharper noses than humans, and therefore a vampire would attack the girl, perticuly in the cramped dungeons. > > If Snape was a vampire, he would be driven mad by the smell, Sorry, but this theory is easily refuted by canon: **** Harry squeezed himself through a crowd of sixth years and saw a sign hanging in the farthest corner of the shop (UNUSUAL TASTES). Ron and Hermione were standing underneath it, examing a tray of blood-flavored lollipops. Harry sneaked up behind them. "Ugh, no. Hary won't want one of those, they're for vampires, I expect, " Hermione was saying. --PoA Ch. 10 ***** If Potterverse vampires went mad at the smell of blood, then Honeydukes wouldn't be able to keep their stock of blood-flavored lollies out on a tray. They'd have to lock them up. Pippin From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Thu Nov 14 23:49:02 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 23:49:02 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape is NOT a vampire References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46622 Vampires could be rare - or the lollies could be wrapped up or just called 'blood' when its really strawberry. Thats done in the muggle world too, LOL. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Thu Nov 14 23:55:20 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:55:20 EST Subject: Lucius and the Diary Message-ID: <81.2459d69e.2b0591e8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46623 Rich states; << How can the underlying plot of CoS make sense? I say this after a few assumptions, but reasonable ones, the main one being that Voldemort would not share power. Ever. With anyone. He's not the sort of evil overlord that would even want another version of himself taking over, I recon, unless he was an integral part of that person... >> This being the week for wild ideas... I think I've finally hit on a valid reading (not, mind you, necessarity the correct one, but, still, valid) for just what the hell was going on in year 2. What if Lucius intended to suplant Voldemort in his absence? Once the revenant was released, he intended to contact Diary!Tom (he was certainly keeping a close enough eye on the school during second year to know whether the revenant had been released or not) and feed him the glorious story of what he had done over the past 50 years. Then regroup the DEs in Voldemort's name and under the revenant's titular leadership. But in actuallity, Lucius thought that he would to be able to keep a 16-year-old Riddle under his own influence and be the real guiding spirit behind the DE movement. Since the real Voldemort had tried for the Philosephers' stone and missed, and the stone was now destroyed, Lucius may have thought that there was no way that the real Voldemort could make it back, and that the way was now clear for him to set up as the new Dark Lord. Everything in his behavior since would certainly tend toward that reading. Which would make the rather cool rebuke LV gave him in the graveyard particularly mystifying. In the meantime, the plots that Dobby overheard would have been Kucius and whoever he was planning to stage this coup with. Because he certainly was aiming to make use of Voldemort's network and would likely have had partners in the endeavor. I rather think the Basilisk took him by surprise, but he grabbed the ball and ran with it. -JOdel From obby at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Nov 15 00:10:41 2002 From: obby at blueyonder.co.uk (Richard Thorp) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 00:10:41 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius and the Diary In-Reply-To: <81.2459d69e.2b0591e8@aol.com> References: <81.2459d69e.2b0591e8@aol.com> Message-ID: <157632644250.20021115001041@blueyonder.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 46624 Thursday, November 14, 2002, 11:55:20 PM, jodel wrote: jac> What if Lucius intended to suplant Voldemort in his absence? Once the jac> revenant was released, he intended to contact Diary!Tom (he was certainly jac> keeping a close enough eye on the school during second year to know whether jac> the revenant had been released or not) and feed him the glorious story of jac> what he had done over the past 50 years. Then regroup the DEs in Voldemort's jac> name and under the revenant's titular leadership. But in actuallity, Lucius jac> thought that he would to be able to keep a 16-year-old Riddle under his own jac> influence and be the real guiding spirit behind the DE movement. Yay! Someone gave me an excuse to write some Lucius stuff! :) I really don't think its within LM's character to even think of being leader of the DEs. Hes a petty bully, not an evil overlord (although, like most petty bullies he'd like to think of himself as an evil overlord). He also doesn't seem to be all that clever, at least, not clever enough to have figured out LV's purpose, diary wise. At least, not enough to formulate such a plot. It's not in Lucius' character to take such an overt action. All of his actions from past to present have been at least covert enough that he would not be implicated. He's not going to be able to deflect such a thing, especially under the stare of LV.. And any half-clever DE would figure out that Voldie has more than just one plan to get back to being a "human" again. Basically, Lucius is a coward. Cf. his snivelling nature in GoF (Graveyard scene), the fact that he was one of the first to claim the Imperius defense, he dropped all overt connections to Voldie as soon as humanly possible when Voldie met his end, these are all actions of the classic bully, or even closer to bully's henchman to be honest. He will bully people when he has power behind him: PS/CoS/PoA - Power of MoM connections, and pretty much immunity to prosecution. GoF (World Cup Muggle Torture) - Power of memories of Voldie's reign, and the power associated with being behind a mask/disguise. (As an aside, he was the ringleader in that I assume, and since he was ringleader, and the Dark Mark turned up, they scattered... Well, this is just him showing his cowardly nature once more) Post GoF (maybe) and Voldies-Reign (deffo) - The immense power of a hugely powerful Dark Wizard and the power of the Death Eaters behind him. LM is not a credible evil-doer. Hes the lacky. Hes the expendable bugger that gets sent in when the big guy can't be bothered to waste his energy on the heroes. Designed to fail, in a literary sense this failure tends to be amusing.. Though not so in this case :) Wow. I think I've rather gone off on one here. Nevermind :) Something in there will make sense! -Rich msn: obbles at hotmail.com PS. As an aside.. Whos writing the Lucius character FAQ? If there is one, that is? From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 01:24:08 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 01:24:08 -0000 Subject: Scabbers WAS: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: There's somthing about Trevor In-Reply-To: <20021114003349.34032.qmail@web20001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46625 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rebecca Stephens wrote: > > --- Regina wrote: > > > Too subtle for me, though. When Scabbers was > > revealed I had a hard time believing it. Sure, > > the Weasleys were a good wizarding family, > > and having Arthur at the MoM was particularly > > helpful to Peter, but what are the odds that Ron > > would become best friends with Harry? > > *That* was just unbelievably lucky. > > > > --Regina > Rebecca added: > > Hmm, I always assumed that Peter just took advantage > of being able to have someone else provide his food > and shelter; making sure he slept in warm house > instead of freezing to death, starving to death, or > being eaten by a predator. > > ...edited... > > Is it unlikely that he would just happen to end up > with the one who would be Harry's best friend: of > course. > > But then, there are a lot of unlikely things in HP. > > > Rebecca bboy_mn comments: First I have to assume that Perigrew knew who Arthur Weasley was. He may not have been a close friend, but he knew who Arther was and about his family. So, my first point, who is likely to take in a stray but friendly RAT as a pet; Lucius/Draco 'I'm so rich it hurts' Malfoy or Arthur/Percy/Ron 'boy, I've got a lot of kids and not much money' Weasley? There is a very high likelihood that a family like the Weasleys who are generally kind to start with, would take in a stray animal as a pet. Also, the Weasleys live in the country where it is nice and quiet and safe; far from the prying eyes of the wizard world. While Peter may have been aware that the Weasleys had a son about Harry's age, I think that was a bonus. Primarily, Weasleys were a place where he was LIKELY to be taken in as well as being a very private. While I can't say it isn't true, I very much doubt that this was a grand conspiracy on Peter's part to mold Ron into an evil underling with the eventual hope of doing whatever(?) to Harry. Only my opinion. bboy_mn From chynarose8 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 15 01:36:58 2002 From: chynarose8 at hotmail.com (abigail_draconi) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 01:36:58 -0000 Subject: Snape is NOT a vampire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46626 Chris had commented: >> When the girls have their periods, they must smell slightly of blood. Now, most vampire literature has the vampire driven mad by the smell, them having sharper noses than humans, and therefore a vampire would attack the girl, perticuly in the cramped dungeons. If Snape was a vampire, he would be driven mad by the smell, and therefore hermione would have not to attend potions class while she was on, same for the other girls.<< What are your sources on vampires? >From everything I've read/heard, vampires don't go crazy and attack someone simply because they smell a bit of human blood on them. They are presented as having more self-control than that. Everything I've come across emphasizes their ambush method of hunting: singling out a human, stalking them, getting them away from prying eyes, getting close without spooking them, and _then_ biting them to make them bleed. Just like a lion or leopard would do to a impala. --Chyna Rose From sydpad at yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 22:09:33 2002 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:09:33 -0000 Subject: Key points in CoS In-Reply-To: <018c01c28b93$0d8887a0$b8a0cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46627 I'm still waiting for the payoff of Ginny Weasley's experience in that book. Because of the whodunnit construction, we don't get much of a look at exactly what her possession entailed, but it must have been a doozy. At the very least, he probably imparted his parseltongue ability to her. She's clearly also being set up as a love interest for Harry of some kind, so I'd expect to see her fleshed out a lot more than she is at the moment. Ginny's had closer contact with Tom Riddle than anyone in the series so far-- intimate magical contact, moreover, with pre- Voldemort Riddle. Could that come in handy for our heros further on? Oh-- and I reckon we'll find out that Snape knows more than "a tiny little bit about dueling". --Sydney From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Nov 14 23:51:57 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:51:57 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape is NOT a vampire References: Message-ID: <3DD4371D.5D753559@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46628 How can he be a vampire and be out in daylight, refereeing a Quiddich game. Quiddich is not normally played at night, since they did have to stop practicing when the light got too bad and students are not likely allowed to be up really late at night just for a school sport. Likely is played till dark and if the game is not resolved, they break till the next day and take it up again. The Snitch is bewitched to stay in the area of the playing field, so might just buzz around all night till the game resumes the next day. Professional Quiddich might just keep going and going, with the area lit up by magic. The Pros don't tend to have classes in the morning, except maybe Krum. Jazmyn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 02:39:51 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 02:39:51 -0000 Subject: Scabbers looking to get near Harry In-Reply-To: <000001c28bf3$029ea3a0$0301a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46629 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "heidi tandy" wrote: Heidi original: > ...Edited... > > I mean, the Weasleys, who are part of Dumbledore's Old Crowd, had > a Death Eater in their house for about five years, full time (until > Percy went to school) and then on holidays for another four years > (counting up until the beginning of PoA, as Ron didn't go home that > whole year). Who really knows how much Wormtail observed about the > Weasleys, about their home security measures (if any) and about their > day to day lives? > > ....edited.... > > Heidi Well, the point of your overal post is still valid no matter what, but do we really know how long Peter/Scabbers lived at the Weasley house? Unless there was something I missed, we know for sure he was there 1 years before Ron started school. Time periods stretching beyond that are speculation. I agree, it would seem logical from Pete/Scabber's perspective, to have been at the Weasley's for the whole 11 years. But we really don't know that. The implication is that when Percy became a Prefect and received his new owl, he passed Scabbers down to Ron. That accounts for one year before Ron started school. How much farther into the past the Scabbers/Weasley relationship goes, we don't know. I'm not really going anywhere with this, it was just a thought that popped into my head as I read your post. Can anyone cite any canon that implies how long Scabbers was there? bboy_mn From kaityf at jorsm.com Fri Nov 15 00:51:12 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:51:12 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] There are Loads of Clues in CoS (WAS: Key points in CoS) In-Reply-To: References: <018c01c28b93$0d8887a0$b8a0cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021114183958.0393c238@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46630 Here's someone's response to the question about clues in CoS. I think there's even more to it than this. JK makes her clues very, very subtle. On a first reading, you are totally unaware they are clues. They just seem part of the story, sometimes quite inconsequential parts. I can't think of an example right off at the moment, but we've seen this happen already. It's what makes many of us want to go back over the books again and again and look for the clues. She is really good. Better, if you ask me, than Agatha Christie for providing subtle clues in a mystery. The fun is that once you see what has happened, you think, "Of course! We should have known!" I am betting that the topics mentioned in relation to what's learned in the History of Magic class will be significant. Remember one was about some goblin uprising? I'll bet something's going to come up about goblins. Nothing JK puts in her books are insignificant. Amazing writer. I've also read in an interview with her that Harry's eyes will be important. Do you remember all the times she mentions his eyes? No? If not, it's because it just doesn't seem important. It just seems like nice descriptive detail. So anyway, the idea is to see what is included in the movie. It's kinda like looking at what is in the first movie. For one thing, we see how the Potters were living when Voldie came to kill them. That scene, which was not in the book, was made with JK's approval. So what is it about that scene that tells us about later events? Some people have suggested that the Potters were hiding among Muggles, living as Muggles. (They had electric lights.) Doesn't seem all that significant, though, as you're watching the movie, though, huh? At 07:22 PM 11/14/2002 +0000, you wrote: >Richelle ("Richelle Votaw") wrote: > > > Okay, according to The Leaky Cauldron, Filmforce had an interview >with JKR. They quote her as saying: > > > > "Key things happen in book two. No one knows how important those >things are... yet. There's a lot in there. And I know how difficult >it was to get it all in there without drawing too much attention to >the clues." > > > > So, what are they?!? > >Now me: > >CoS was my least favorite of all of the books until I re-read it >enough times to realize just how many fabulous clues JKR provided to >us in Book 2. It's neat to hear her say it! > >I firmly believe in the "Harry as Heir of Gryffindor" theory, and I >think that there are many clues in CoS that support this theory. > >In CoS, Fawkes, who I believe to have once been Gryffindor's phoenix >(see an essay I wrote on this for more information if you're >interested: http://www.i2k.com~svanderark/lexicon/essay-fawkes.html), >helps Harry fight the basilisk. In legend, the griffin was believed >to be the "adversary of serpent and basilisks, both of which were >seen as embodiments of satanic demons" (from the What's in a Name >website ? paraphrased from the Dictionary of Symbolism). I believe >this to be a parallel to Gryffindor's Fawkes and Slytherin's >basilisk, and perhaps a clue to a possible good-against-evil fight >between Gryffindor and Slytherin 1,000 years ago. When I brought this >up once before, Judy Shapiro added her theory that this could also be >a foreshadowing of Harry's eventual defeat of Voldemort. > >Other clues in CoS that support the "Fawkes was once Gryffindor's >phoenix" theory are that Fawkes lives in Dumbledore's office, which >has a griffin-shaped doorknocker, and also contains Gryffindor's >sword and the Sorting Hat, which we learn in GoF was once >Gryffindor's hat. In support of the "Harry as Heir of Gryffindor" >theory, in CoS, Fawkes brings two items previously owned by >Gryffindor to Harry's aid in the Chamber - the Sorting Hat and the >sword. > >And it's in CoS that we first learn that Gryffindor's first name >was "Godric", and can make the connection to the Potters living in >Godric's Hollow. In addition, if you parallel the life of St. Godric >with Harry, there are all sorts of connections which support the Heir >of Gryffindor theory - there are legends about St. Godric protecting >a hunted stag which parallel the workings of the Fidelius Charm (and >of course, the stag is both James' animagus and Harry's patronus), >and St. Godric, like Harry, was able to know of events happening at >great distances. > >There was another clue on a different topic that I was going to >raise, which was that in Ch. 3, at the Burrow, "Harry just caught >sight of a pair of bright *green* eyes staring at him before it >closed with a snap." The "bright green eyes" are Ginny's, and this >reference made me wonder whether whether there might be a >relationship between Ginny's green eyes and Harry's green eyes. >However, this reference is from the US version; when I pulled out my >UK version today to find the quote for this post, I see that it >reads "bright *brown* eyes." Very curious, indeed! > >~Phyllis > > > > >________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > >Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! >http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > >Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material >from posts to which you're replying! > >Is your message... >An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to >HPFGU-Announcements. >Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. >Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. >None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. >Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- >mods at hpfgu.org.uk > >Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com >____________________________________________________________ > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Nov 15 03:33:25 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 03:33:25 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter: Pampered jock, patsy, and fraud??????!!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46631 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "larryngocnguyen83" wrote: > Everyone > This jaded fool Chris Suellentrop wrote this horrible article about > HArry Potter calling him "a fraud, and the cult that has risen around > him is based on a lie." What do YOU guys think? > Here's Glenn Reynolds' - aka Instapundit's - take on Sullentrop http://www.instapundit.com/archives/005501.php#005501 From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Nov 15 04:00:27 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:00:27 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] There are Loads of Clues in CoS (WAS: Key points in CoS) References: Message-ID: <013d01c28c5b$8bcee5a0$7a9dcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 46632 Phyllis writes: > There was another clue on a different topic that I was going to > raise, which was that in Ch. 3, at the Burrow, "Harry just caught > sight of a pair of bright *green* eyes staring at him before it > closed with a snap." The "bright green eyes" are Ginny's, and this > reference made me wonder whether whether there might be a > relationship between Ginny's green eyes and Harry's green eyes. > However, this reference is from the US version; when I pulled out my > UK version today to find the quote for this post, I see that it > reads "bright *brown* eyes." Very curious, indeed! My US paperback edition says "bright brown eyes." Which I found an odd way to describe brown eyes. Unless it's bright as in very attentive and not bright as in color. Because I can't quite picture brown being considered bright (as in color). Other clues, someone mentioned the way Harry felt like Tom Riddle was a long lost uncle or something when he was writing in the diary. I know it's been hypothesized that the diary was under a spell to make one feel familiar with it, but what if it wasn't? Technically, I suppose Harry had met Tom Riddle twice before. Once the year before and once as a baby. But there still may be something in that yet. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Nov 15 04:30:30 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 04:30:30 -0000 Subject: Malfoy Estate (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46633 Malfoy Estate (PS/SS, Chap. 6) To the tune of the Beatles' Carry That Weight Hear a MIDI at: http://wsp3.wspice.com/~dpannell/beatles/Welcome.html Dedicated to Gail B. (the definitive HP/Beatler) THE SCENE: The Hogwarts Express. DRACO (flanked by Crabbe & Goyle), reintroducing himself to HARRY, not-so-subtly warns him to avoid the likes of Hagrid and Ron DRACO: And my name's Malfoy, Draco Malfoy. RON: (gives a slight cough, i.e. a snigger) DRACO: (glaring at Ron) Think my name's funny, do you? No need to ask who you are. My father told me all the Weasleys have red hair, freckles, and more children than they can afford. (Turning back to HARRY) You'll soon find out some wizarding families are much better than others, Potter. You don't want to go making friends with the wrong sort. I can help you there .. (music) Boy, join with the Malfoy Estate Malfoys you make your allies Boy, don't make the Malfoys irate Malfoys berate and chastise One never hangs out with Weasleys One never seeks Hagrid's approbation Or in the middle of your education You'll break down HARRY (to himself) Man, I think it's Malfoys I hate Don't need debate or rewrite Man, I gotta Slyth'rins negate Should we commence with rat bite? (Scabbers attacks Goyle, sinking his teeth deep into Goyle's knuckle. EXIT, with undue haste. the ANTI-TRIO. ENTER HERMIONE) HERMIONE (spoken): What has been going on? - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (a Beatle-friendly site) From msbonsai at mninter.net Fri Nov 15 04:56:24 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 04:56:24 -0000 Subject: Lupin says an age :was: Scabbers looking to get near Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46634 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: > do we really know how long Peter/Scabbers lived at the Weasley house? > > Unless there was something I missed, we know for sure he was there 1 > years before Ron started school. Time periods stretching beyond that > are speculation. That accounts > for one year before Ron started school. How much farther into the past > the Scabbers/Weasley relationship goes, we don't know. > > bboy_mn Well, at least Ron doesn't refute it here: POA p 363 "Look, Scabbers probably had a fight with another rat or something! He's been in my family for ages, right --" "Twelve years, in fact," said Lupin. "Didn't you ever wonder why he was living so long?" "We -- we've been taking good care of him!" said Ron. And if you go back to the beginning of the book, it only makes sense then why he ignored what the lady in the shop said about how long rats live. p 59 "An ordinary common or garden rat like this can't be expected to live longer than three years or so," said the witch. "Now, if you were looking for something a bit more hard-wearing, you might like one of these --" She indicated the black rats, who promptly started skipping again. Ron muttered, "Show-offs." On the other hand, Harry somewhere in there thinks about that remark in the shop and thinks that maybe Ron's rat is a *regular* rat and should be near death now. But I suppose none of these remarks is quite proof enough of either theory. Julie From Audra1976 at aol.com Fri Nov 15 08:14:27 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 03:14:27 EST Subject: Wand-free magic ? Message-ID: <15e.172a0e42.2b0606e3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46635 In a message dated 11/14/02 2:39:43 AM, finwitch at yahoo.com writes: << Well, for one thing, wizards *have* been using magic without a wand - before the wand was invented at least. Most of them didn't have enough power/focus to be able to do so without one at the late BeforeWand-period (but Mr Ollivander who made the first wands must have...). Animagi is also the kind of magic one just must do without a wand. >> First, I'd like to cite another example of wand-free magic--when Quirrel is hexing Harry Potter's broom during the first Quidditch game and Snape when he is countering the curse. Hermione says he only needs eye contact for that--just like Harry used eye contact to make the glass disappear from the snake exhibit, and to blow up Aunt Marge. I've always been under the impression that the wand has no magic in it, and that the bits of magical creatures surrounded by wood only channel the magic inside the wizard, and aim at what the wizard wanted to cast a spell on. Second, I don't remember ever reading anything about Ollivander making the first-ever wands, or that there was a "Before Wand-period." Maybe is was discussed before I joined the list? Ollivander's sign says "since 382 BC," and I suppose that the store must have been founded by an ancestor of the Mr. Ollivander that sells Harry his wand (I think it can only be deduced that this Mr. Ollivander is at least old enough to have sold Tom Riddle his wand), and Ollivander's is in Britain. So are we to assume that wands originated in Britain and spread to wizards all over the world? Or furthermore, did wizards themselves originate in Britain and spread to different parts Europe and the world? I would think that magic folk would have also existed in Africa, for example, but did they use wands or any sort of tools to channel magic? And if not, were they not as powerful as British wizards who used wands? I'm not a history buff, so I don't know exactly what was going on in the world in 382 BC when an Ollivander supposedly started making wands. I wonder if there was any significance to that specific year? I was able to find a few sources that say that say (in the real world at least) that the Druids in Britain were the first to use wands, and they go back as early as 500 BC. This means that the original Ollivander was probably a Druid. Audra From Audra1976 at aol.com Fri Nov 15 08:29:27 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 03:29:27 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Relatives in the same house Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46636 In a message dated 11/14/02 1:50:45 PM, tracey.burkhardt at gnb.ca writes: << I thought this was interesting in light of the posts of late that discuss how people who are related end up in the same house. For example, the Weasleys, the Malfoys, or the assumption that James was a Gryffindor. Has anyone taken a look at this idea before? Do we have a plausible explanation for why TWINS would not be in the same house? >> Me: Why not? Parvati and Padma may have the same DNA, but they are still different people, each with their own thoughts, experiences, and distinct personalities. I would think it's probably common for siblings/parents to be in the same house, but it's probably not that rare for them to be in different Houses either. It's just another example of what we've been talking about with our personal choices being what really counts. Audra From Audra1976 at aol.com Fri Nov 15 08:52:39 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 03:52:39 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape is NOT a vampire Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46637 In a message dated 11/14/02 9:37:12 PM, jazmyn at pacificpuma.com writes: << How can he be a vampire and be out in daylight, refereeing a Quiddich game. >> Sorry to be cluttering up your mailboxes with a third message in a row for me, but I just had a comment about all the vampire arguments. Personally, I don't believe that Snape is a vampire, however I don't think any of your arguments about being out in sunlight, smelling blood, or any other vampire lore from any source matter at all. This is JKR's world. We know "vampires" exist in her world, but she can make her "vampires" any way she wants. She can use "Nosferatu"'s model, Bram Stoker's, or any other older legends, any combination of characteristics from these, or she could create a totally original vision of "vampires." Look what she did with elves. To me, before HP, elves were beautiful, wise, human-looking creatures with pointed ears, nothing like Dobby and Winky. And I never thought goblins were smart enough to run a bank. It's her vision, and she can completely redesign any species for her world. Audra From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Fri Nov 15 09:20:35 2002 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:20:35 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Combined Classes (WAS Re: How Twenty is Twenty?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46638 >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jazmyn wrote: > > All the classes seem to have two houses at a time > > represented in them. Thetas why double potions was such a horror to > > Harry. Twice as long cooped up with the Slytherins and Snape. >...and... > > Magic Shop Class (making magical items) > > Magic Arts and Crafts? > > Latin > > Language classes? (How to speak Mermish) > > Some sort of math classes. Only makes sense that a good wizard >should > > have decent math skills for making potions or whatever. > > Magic Politics/Government > > Drama? (Frightening concept.. magical school plays..) > > > > Jazmyn > >Tehehehe, imagine the special effects in *that* school play. I don't >think all classes are two houses combined. We know for sure that >Potions, Care of Magical Creatures, Flying (I assume Flying is for >first year students only, since that is the only place we have heard >it mentioned) and Herbology are all combined classes. However, >Defense against the Dark Arts has never been mentioned as two houses >combined and we have seen the inside of that classroom as often as we >have the Potion's room. I assume Transfiguration and Divination and >Charms are not combined because it has not yet been mentioned, and >there would definetly be something mentioned in the books if other >houses were in with the Gryffindors in Divination. If there is cannon >evidence contradicting what I have just said, it means I *really* >need to re-read the books.... >However, have you noticed that we have *never* heard what an >Astronomy class is like? >Have you also noticed that the Gryffindors are most of the time >combined with Slytherin? In Book two they are with Hufflepuff in >Herbology, but that is the only time they are not with the >Gryffindors. They have never been in a class together with the >Ravenclaws! There is evidence to this, so it is not pure assumption- >in book four when Harry asks Parvati to the Yule Ball he then asks >her if she knows someone who could go with Ron. Parvati answers >something to the effect of "Sure, I could ask Padma, you know my >twin in Ravenclaw" (sorry I lent my book to my sister, can't look it >up!) if they were closely associated with the Ravenclaws or having >classes with them, then she would not have had to really say anything >beyond the name. >Kateydidnt > Well, we haven't seen our terrific trio in *all* of their classes. Perhaps Astronomy is with the Ravenclaws. There simply isn't time and space for JKR to give parity to everything - she basically puts in what drives the plot forward. Possibly some of the special subjects that have smaller classes aren't done by house but have an admixture of students from all four houses = perhaps Arithmancy or Muggle Studies, where we don't follow Hermione. Incidentally - that was a continuity/??? some kind of error in HP and the SS the movie - Susan Bones is in the double Potions with Slytherin class, and she is quite notably a Hufflepuff. She's also played by Eleanor Columbus, the director's daughter. :-) So I have a guess as to how she wound up in the scene. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 09:54:44 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:54:44 -0000 Subject: Snape is NOT a vampire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46639 > In a message dated 11/14/02 9:37:12 PM, jazmyn at p... writes: > << How can he be a vampire and be out in daylight, refereeing a Quiddich > game. >> Audra responded: > Sorry to be cluttering up your mailboxes with a third message in a row for > me, but I just had a comment about all the vampire arguments. Personally, I > don't believe that Snape is a vampire, however I don't think any of your > arguments about being out in sunlight, smelling blood, or any other vampire > lore from any source matter at all. This is JKR's world. We know "vampires" > exist in her world, but she can make her "vampires" any way she wants. She > can use "Nosferatu"'s model, Bram Stoker's, or any other older legends, any > combination of characteristics from these, or she could create a totally > original vision of "vampires." Quite true. Also, another point being when Ron, Hermione and Harry are at Honeydukes they look at *blood-flavored* candy and Hermione notes they're probably for vampires... So Rowling's vampires eat *candy*. I'm not sure if Honeydukes is open during Dark hours... And many vampires in other books/movies can walk out during daylight. Such as Anne Rice's books - where age gives them enough power to withstand even sunlight. Or in Buffy the Vampireslayer - a special ring or non-direct sunlight. Or some medication. So I don't see why a Vampire couldn't go out by day in Rowling's books - possibly by having a potion (which would be *very* easy for Snape to get without attracting attention! The potion's recipe could be in the same book as Polyjuice) and another or even same potion could also give them a /reflection/ so why not? Snape being a vampire and using a potion: Maybe. Half-vampire(his mother being bitten while pregnant): Maybe. Not a Vampire: Maybe. And unless this has something to do with the plot it's likely we will never know for sure. -- Finwitch From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Nov 15 10:49:01 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 05:49:01 EST Subject: Brown eyes, black eyes, tea-coloured eyes. Message-ID: <12e.1b2c208e.2b062b1d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46640 Richelle: > My US paperback edition says "bright brown eyes." Which I found an odd way > to describe brown eyes. Unless it's bright as in very attentive and not > bright as in color. Because I can't quite picture brown being considered > bright (as in color). > I know it *sounds* odd, but I do actually know a child who has blonde hair and eyes that I could only describe as 'bright' brown. Black eyes have always puzzled me, though. I think I first came across them in 'What Katy Did', or 'Little Women' or something as a child. I have always assumed it just meant very dark brown. But *beetle black*? That I don't understand as a description. 'Beetle black' to me is intensely black in a way that no eye ever is. Unless, of course we are talking about pupils which are so dilated that the iris is barely visible. Is this why Snape's eyes are black and described as like dark *tunnels*? Is he *on* something? ;-) Is this why belladonna is mentioned as a Potions ingredient in GoF? If the resultant photophobia the reason why he prefers dungeons? Is he shielding his eyes by looking through that curtain of greasy, black hair? Of course if he were using belladonna (that would be beautifully ironic etymologically, wouldn't it?) he'd be having a bit of a problem with his focussing as it's a cycloplegic (paralyses the muscles which control the lens), But I shall ignore that inconveneint detail. ;-) I'm sure there'd be a magical method of counteracting that particular side effect! Eloise Noting a description of Alan Rickman's eyes as like pale tea without milk - isn't that approaching bright brown? Now guess what my favourite drink is (a connection that I have only just made). Still, there are worse things to see in your tea cup! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gandharvika at hotmail.com Fri Nov 15 11:37:07 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:37:07 +0000 Subject: (FILK) CoS Chapters 2 & 3 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46641 Chamber of Secrets, Chapters 2 & 3 (Sorry, I couldn't think of a better title...) Lilac and I celebrating the opening of CoS here in the U.S. the best way we know how! Okay, many of you may be familiar with the Beatles' album _Abby Road_...if you aren't then *shame on you*! On side 2 of the album (I'm still living in a world where there are still "side 2's") most of the songs are strung together, one immediately following the other without a break in between. So, following in this vein, both Lilac and have filked five of these songs... _Please Harry Potter, Don't Be Angry_ to the tune of _You Never Give Me Your Money_ by Lilac _Underage Wizard_ to the tune of _Sun King_ by Lilac _Mean Mr. Dursley_ to the tune of _Mean Mr. Mustard_ by Gail Bohacek _Dursley Gets Mad_ to the tune of _Polythene Pam_ by Gail Bohacek _He Escaped Through the Bedroom Window_ to the tune of _She Came In Through the Bedroom Window_ by Gail Bohacek So, sit back and enjoy.... Dedicated to our fellow filkers...you're a source of much amusement and all inspiration! ****************************************************** _Please Harry Potter Don't Get Angry_ (The Scene: Harry's bedroom. Dobby the house-elf is nimbly keeping Ron and Hermione's letters out of Harrys reach, while he is singing...) DOBBY: Please Harry Potter, dont be angry Dobby hoped youd think your friends forgot you And that you wouldn't want to go back to school Please stay here! Please, Harry Potter must promise That sir will not go back to dangrous Hogwarts Because some evil wizards soon will cavort Please stay here! HARRY: Dobby, you dont understand I dont belong in Muggle land I belong in your world at Hogwarts Its all Ive got to keep me sane My family treats me inhumane That is why Ill go back to Hogwarts That Hogwarts magic feeling, back there Ill go That Hogwarts magic feeling, back there Ill go, back there Ill go... (Dobby sprints down the stairs, and Harry follows soon thereafter. He finds Dobby levitating the pudding up by the kitchen ceiling.) HARRY (gasping) : Dobby, no! DOBBY: Sir has left Dobby without a choice See this pudding floating here Dobby will drop it down then disappear HARRY: Dobby, dont do it, I pray! But I cant say that I will stay (no I cant, I cant, I cant .....) (Dobby lets the pudding fall to the floor with a crash, splattering the room and Harry with the creamy concoction. Dobby then disappears as Harry hears Uncle Vernon on his way into the kitchen...) HARRY (to himself): Ten, nine, eight, seven, six and five I can kiss my bum goodbye... ***************************************************** _Underage Wizard_ (The Scene: After the "Pudding Disaster", Harry has been locked in his room for three days with very little to eat, and is feeling utterly hopeless and helpless about his predicament. Being lulled to sleep by the sound of crickets chirping outside, he fitfully dreams that he is in a locked in a cage, starving and weak, laying on a bed of straw, with a sign on the cage that says...) HARRY: "UNDERAGE WIZARD" "UNDERAGE WIZARD" See the people goggling See the Dursleys laughing "UNDERAGE WIZARD" (He sees Dobby among the crowd and calls out to him...) Dobby, bloody house-elf, come and help me break on out of this joint! Locked up in a cage like in a zoo, all of the people cruelly point DOBBY: No, sir, Harry Potter! Sir is safe there, just cant let sir be destroyed. ************************************************* _Mean Mr. Dursley_ Mean Mr. Dursley, Harry's uncle He's a Muggle really hates magic Lives at Number 4 Privet Drive Hated Harry since he'd arrived Always made sure he was deprived Such a Muggle that man Such a Muggle that man Petunia his wife Dudley his son They are no fun, they hate Harry too Petunia makes him work like a slave Dudley always acting depraved Can't believe the way they behave Such a Muggle family Such a Muggle family ***************************************************** _Dursley Gets Mad_ Well, you should've seen Dursley get mad He put bars on Harry's window, the cad Locked him in his room, won't let him go back to school Yes, you should've seen Dursley get mad Yeah, yeah, yeah When he found out Harry couldn't cast spells Outside of school or else he would get expelled Said, "You'll never go back!", wouldn't cut him no slack And now Harry's bedroom has become like a cell Yeah, yeah, yeah *************************************************** _He Escaped Through The Bedroom Window_ He escaped through the bedroom window Now everything is just okay The Dursley's hang dumbstruck in amazement As they watch as he flies away Nobody ever told them Now they all can plainly see Harry's leaving from the Dursley's He's going home with the Weasley's Harry's stuff was locked in the cupboard Fred and George snuck down the stairs Pretty soon they'd packed the old Ford On the sill, Harry's almost there But then Vernon, he tried to grab him It was like a tug-of-war And though he tried his best to stop him Harry left in that flying car Nobody ever told them Now they all can plainly see Harry's leaving from the Dursley's He's going home with the Weasley's Oh yeah -Gail B. who has tickets to see the movie at 11:55 this morning, and all ready to go! P.S. We're *THIS* close to filking the entire album of _Abby Road_! Please help! E-mail me. Also, it's my mad, mad ambition to see every single Beatle song filked! To this end, I've created a list "FILKING THE BEATLES" which shows all the Beatles' albums and matches them up with the filks that we've finished so far...please ask for a copy when you write me :)> Thanks a bunch! Man, I love this group! _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From candlewick4 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 05:37:32 2002 From: candlewick4 at yahoo.com (candlewick4) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 05:37:32 -0000 Subject: Fawkes Essay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46642 Okay, I liked this article but...I hope someone out there can help me out... Isn't Fawkes named after Guy Fawkes - of Bonfire Night fame? That was in 1605, and he was a traitor against the English government. Does that symbolize the strain between what will be the Order of the Pheonix and the Ministry of Magic? How old is Fawkes the phoenix, anyway? And perhaps he has not always had that name? What year/era was Hogwarts established? TIA, Candlewick --- "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > OK, I still got the link wrong in my last post! Here's the correct > one (I did check it this time, I promise): > > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/essay-fawkes.html From msbonsai at mninter.net Fri Nov 15 13:15:05 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:15:05 -0000 Subject: Wands/Wandfree/Scars/Eyes/History of wand usage was: Wand-free magic ? In-Reply-To: <15e.172a0e42.2b0606e3@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46643 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Audra1976 at a... wrote: > First, I'd like to cite another example of wand-free magic--when Quirrel is > hexing Harry Potter's broom during the first Quidditch game and Snape when he > is countering the curse. Hermione says he only needs eye contact for > that--just like Harry used eye contact to make the glass disappear from the > snake exhibit, and to blow up Aunt Marge. Me: Hadn't thought of that! But you're right, he was looking at Aunt Marge when it happened, he was on his feet directly speaking to her! And he was looking at the snake and the two boys in front of the glass when the glass disappeared too!! Hmm. Interesting. My original point in #46559 is that Harry simply will be the first to really refine his own powers without wand usage. I guess I never did make my complete point there. I believe that the wand is indeed a directional point for the magic to flow through. The magic elements and the wood simply helping the magic through. Otherwise why is the texture of the wood important at all? Why wood? Because it's porous? They snape bad wizards wands, so they cannot perform magic. They do not allow other magical creatures (ie House Elves) to use wands, and I believe that's so they do not get too powerful. Wonder what would happen if you let those House Elves or even the Goblins have wands . . . True there are incidences where curses are performed with direct eye contact (Quirrell on Harry in the Quidditch match) but actually directed spells is another thing. I fully expect Harry to no longer need a wand at some point, the question will be what causes it. Does it have anything to do with his scar? Lilly's eyes? Finwitch had replied in 46589 that wizards have been doing magic without wands, and that Olivander had made the first wand. I don't believe this is cannon. And seeing as JKR loves to get the research and history in, I'll go to the next part of your response. > I'm not a history buff, so I don't know exactly what was going on in the > world in 382 BC when an Ollivander supposedly started making wands. I wonder > if there was any significance to that specific year? I was able to find a > few sources that say that say (in the real world at least) that the Druids in > Britain were the first to use wands, and they go back as early as 500 BC. > This means that the original Ollivander was probably a Druid. > > Audra Well we can check out the Wikipedia, the free online encylopedia in every language (actually found this through Google when I typed the year in). http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?search=382+BC It appears that Philip II, king of Macedon was born in 382 BC. hmm. In general in 4th century BC: Events: Invasion of the Celts into Ireland. Kingdom of Macedon conquers Persian empire Romans build first aqueduct Chinese use bellows Significant persons: Plato, philosopher Aristotle, philosopher and scientist Philip II of Macedon Alexander the Great, King of Macedon, invades Asia Minor, Persia and reaches India Well further research of wand usage brings up Lord Voldemort. It also brings up Odysseus. In specific: Circe The next stop was the island of Circe (Aeaea), where Odysseus sent a scouting party ahead of the rest of the group. She invited the scouting party to a feast, the food laced with one of her magical potions, and she then changed all the men into pigs with a wand after they gorged themselves on it. Only Eurylochus, suspecting treachery from the outset, escaped to warn Odysseus and the others who had stayed behind at the ships. Odysseus set out to rescue his men, but was intercepted and told by Hermes to procure some of the herb moly to protect him from the same fate. When her magic failed he was able to force her to return his men to human form. She later fell in love with Odysseus and assisted him in his quest to reach his home after he and his crew spent a year with her on her island. Circe and Odysseus had three children: Telegonus, Argius, and Latinus. So when was the Trojan war you ask? Why it's the first war listed! http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars c.1200 BC Trojan War I hope this puts it all somewhat into perspective anyway ;o) Julie - majored in World History and enjoying lots of references in the HP series. From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 14:06:55 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 06:06:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Key points in CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021115140655.9559.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46644 Ginny's probably the best bet. But I'd like to put in my vote for houselves. We found out a lot about them. Plus there is Dobby disappearing with a "crack." Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 12:49:01 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:49:01 -0000 Subject: Magical Place: St Mungos/Clues in CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46645 --- Julie wrote: > > There you go :o) She made no promises not to bring back Gilderoy . . > and Firenze . . . so . . . is the magical place that has been > mentioned . . ST. Mungos??? There's a thought. While Dursleys are the only relatives Harry has left, maybe some of his relatives are in St Mungos (thus not-left, but alive). Healing tears of a Phoenix that *did* come out in CoS, might heal them... (though it'd be odd that it wasn't tried before!) And another clue about *eyes* that keep popping out: A basilisk kills with it's _eyes_, never look a basilisk directly into eyes... Eyes that Fawkes picked. Also, Harry saw a _magical eye_ in Knockturn Alley. In GoF we see an auror having one and Harry's dance partner wishes it to be illegal. I think it *is* illegal, except for aurors since the only place where one has been for sale was at Knockturn Alley. Other objects there may also play a role in future books. One more: You can go with floo-powder to another place than you let out in the open by getting off too early, as Harry did by accident. Also, parseltongue may let Harry & co into many other places. Moaning Myrtle may be of a bigger role, too, as well as Hogwarts' plumbing. Polyjuice was *also* first in CoS. A book of potions kept in restricted section, including many *other* potions that horrify the Trio. Wonder if any of these *other* potions comes to play later on? Obliviation was *also* introduced in CoS, as well as dealing with *fame*. Harry saved Justin Flinch-Fletchey by commanding Malfoy's snake. (and Justin thought that Harry tried to kill him) Harry saved Ginny - at the risk of his own life. There was a point where the Gryffindor *ghost* saved a life (just by being between a student and the basilisk). Would that count for a life-debt? Other life-debts than the ever so famous and underlined PP to Harry: Snape's life-debt to James Potter (and Snape believes that the wizard who saved his life had *plotted* it, much like Justin did of Harry) Sirius Black saved i.e. Ron from transformed Lupin by dragging the wolf away (which probably risked his life as well) *Harry's life was saved by his mother*. It's Harry's life-debt to Lily Evans-Potter we get to look most closely, I suppose. For one thing I believe it was Harry's life-debt that made him blow up both the glass and Marjorie Dursley. She had, after all, insulted Lily when it happened. Magic happening against anyone who insults Lily Potter may well be the reason why the Dursleys (apart from Vernon's sister) avoid mentioning them. The life-debt may also have kept the moment of the bond clear in Harry's memory, despite of the Dursley lies and Harry's young age when it happened. Then there's Snape and his life-debt to James Potter: Snape keeps on making not-so-nice remarks of Harry's father, but never once says a word against his mother. Yet, it is obvious that Snape *believes* all those nasty things he says about James. (Otherwise I think he'd be as unable to say it as if he'd taken Veritaserum). However, on this life-debt-theory: With all these Slytherin kids teasing Harry - Snape says all the nasty things about James he does believe, because that way Malfoy & co. don't insult Lily Potter (which would activate Harry's life-debt magic against Malfoy) or James Potter (which would activate Snape's life-debt magic against Malfoy). Considering Malfoy's character, that's just about the only way he can keep uncontrolled magic out of the class-room... -- Finwitch From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 15:08:18 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (rsteph1981) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:08:18 -0000 Subject: Key points in CoS In-Reply-To: <20021115140655.9559.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46646 I wrote: > > Ginny's probably the best bet. > > But I'd like to put in my vote for houselves. We > found out a lot about them. Plus there is Dobby > disappearing with a "crack." Now that I'm class is over, I'll elaborate. We first heard metnion of that house elves were enslaved in CoS. Perhaps we'll find out why in OoTP. Why does their enslavement include not wearing clothes? And, we first learned how poweful a house elf's magic is in CoS. They seem to be quite a bit more powerful than wizards, IMO, though they probably don't have anything other than what their parents taught them to rely on. And, just to comment on something told to us in GOF: why does Dobby have a pencil-shaped nose and Winky a squahed-tomatoe of a nose? Is it a male/female thing or is ethnic? And if it's a male/female thing I guess genders of house elves aren't all that difficult to discern (though Harry wouldn't have been aware of it at the time). Rebecca From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 15:40:57 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:40:57 -0000 Subject: Are Ginny's Eyes Brown or Green? And Uncle Tom (WAS: There are Loads of Clues) In-Reply-To: <013d01c28c5b$8bcee5a0$7a9dcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46647 Richelle quoted me as follows: > There was another clue on a different topic that I was going to > raise, which was that in Ch. 3, at the Burrow, "Harry just caught > sight of a pair of bright *green* eyes staring at him before it > closed with a snap." The "bright green eyes" are Ginny's, and this > reference made me wonder whether whether there might be a > relationship between Ginny's green eyes and Harry's green eyes. > However, this reference is from the US version; when I pulled out my > UK version today to find the quote for this post, I see that it > reads "bright *brown* eyes." Very curious, indeed! and then Richelle replied: > My US paperback edition says "bright brown eyes." Which I found an > odd way to describe brown eyes. Unless it's bright as in very > attentive and not bright as in color. Because I can't quite > picture brown being considered bright (as in color). Now me again: I checked my US paperback edition when I got home last night, and sure enough, it says "bright brown eyes." But I knew I'd heard "bright green eyes" somewhere, so I checked my CoS audiotape (US edition, Jim Dale reading) and Dale reads "bright green eyes." So either he's reading from the hardback version that was subsequently changed in the paperback, or he was in error. If the latter, I'm wondering if he knows something we don't about a connection between Ginny and Harry... Or maybe it's just that every other time Dale read "bright" in connection with "eyes," it was in reference to Harry's bright green eyes, so he just made a subconscious mistake. Richelle also wrote: > Other clues, someone mentioned the way Harry felt like Tom Riddle > was a long lost uncle or something when he was writing in the > diary. I know it's been hypothesized that the diary was under a > spell to make one feel familiar with it, but what if it wasn't? > Technically, I suppose Harry had met Tom Riddle twice before. Once > the year before and once as a baby. But there still may > be something in that yet. Me again: I suspect this reference is intended to lead us to think that Harry is somehow related to Slytherin. But since I don't believe that, I wonder whether Riddle's name was familiar to Harry because Harry might have heard his parents talking about Riddle when he was a baby. The name could therefore be in his subconscious somewhere. If this theory is true, it leads to an interesting conclusion - since Dumbledore says at the end of CoS that very few people knew that Voldemort was once called Tom Riddle, this would suggest that Harry's parents knew this bit of information. Which further suggests that they could have been in the inner circle of those fighting against Voldemort. ~Phyllis From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 15:52:56 2002 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Anne) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 07:52:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Lucius and the Diary In-Reply-To: <1037348218.1119.32331.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021115155256.5701.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46648 Here is an idea I haven't seen before. What if Diary!Riddle told Lucius to plant the diary in a student's things? I can't see Lucius having such a thing and never trying to find out what it's for, so I think it quite likely that he would have written in it, especially after the fall of Voldemort. Then Lucius and Diary!Riddle may have worked out the plot between them. Lucius, being the cunning, scheming devil that he is, would probably not given Diary!Riddle too much information about himself, but was trying to use him for his own purposes. Conversely, Diary!Riddle would be doing the same to him. As to why Tom Riddle would have originally made such a diary, I believe what he told Harry was at least part of the truth -- he wanted to leave something behind to carry on the "heir of Slytherin" work he had begun. It was sort of an ego-trip, that he would make it possible for he himself to finish this work someday, even though he was already planning to become a powerful dark wizard and go on to bigger and "better" things. And as he was brilliant, ambitious, and the creator of the diary himself, I don't think Real!Riddle would ever doubt that he would have the ability to control Diary!Riddle should they ever meet. Anne __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 16:06:26 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:06:26 -0000 Subject: Fawkes Questions (WAS: Fawkes Essay) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46649 Candlewick wrote: > Isn't Fawkes named after Guy Fawkes - of Bonfire Night fame? > That was in 1605, and he was a traitor against the English > government. Does that symbolize the strain between what will be > the Order of the Pheonix and the Ministry of Magic? Now me: Yes, Fawkes is named after Guy Fawkes (JKR has confirmed this connection in interviews). I personally think the only connection between the historical figure and the HP phoenix is with respect to the burning - since phoenixes are reborn from the ashes of their former selves, and Britains burn effigies of Guy Fawkes on Bonfire Night. Candlewick again: > How old is Fawkes the phoenix, anyway? Me again: We don't know for sure how old Fawkes is. I just speculated that since JKR tells us in "Fabulous Beasts" that phoenixes can live to an immense age since they can regenerate themselves, Fawkes could have been around during Gryffindor's time. Candlewick again: > What year/era was Hogwarts established? Me again: I quote Professor Binns in Ch. 9 of CoS: "You all know, of course, that Hogwarts was founded over a thousand years ago - the precise date is uncertain - by the four greatest witches and wizards of the age." ~Phyllis From jodel at aol.com Fri Nov 15 17:49:49 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:49:49 EST Subject: Lucius & The Diary Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46650 Rich writes: >>It's not in Lucius' character to take such an overt action. All of his actions from past to present have been at least covert enough that he would not be implicated<< Well, he WOULD have the easy out of saying that he WAS doing this for LV since it was Riddle who became LV. Not terribly satisfying, to be sure, but uncertain enough to bew at least marginally believable. I read Lucius as being a lot more ambitious and used to being in a position of authority than you do apparantly. Okay; another scenareo. How's this? Lucius was NOT holding on to the diary since LV's fall ten years earlier. He only aquired it (and possibly a cache of Riddle's other effects) durring the year of PS/SS. He started writing in the diary HIMSELF and got into a dialogue with Riddle. Malfoy is no naive 11-year-old. He was able to resist being taken over by Adolescent!Riddle. But he did fill Tom in on something about his future. In return, Tom filled him in on the Chamber and how he could be released from the book. They hatched the plot together, and Lucius only needed to get the diary into the hands of a child bound for Hogwarts. I still think he intended to giove it to Harry, but the run-in with Arthur Weasley convinced him to palm it off on Arthur's daughter instead. -JOdel From msbonsai at mninter.net Fri Nov 15 18:17:06 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:17:06 -0000 Subject: BRIGHT or colorful? was: Re: Are Ginny's Eyes Brown or Green? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46651 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > Richelle quoted Phyllis as follows: > > > There was another clue on a different topic that I was going to > > raise, which was that in Ch. 3, at the Burrow, "Harry just caught > > sight of a pair of bright *green* eyes staring at him before it > > closed with a snap." The "bright green eyes" are Ginny's, and this > > reference made me wonder whether whether there might be a > > relationship between Ginny's green eyes and Harry's green eyes. > > However, this reference is from the US version; when I pulled out my > > UK version today to find the quote for this post, I see that it > > reads "bright *brown* eyes." Very curious, indeed! > > and then Richelle replied: > > > My US paperback edition says "bright brown eyes." Which I found an > > odd way to describe brown eyes. Unless it's bright as in very > > attentive and not bright as in color. Because I can't quite > > picture brown being considered bright (as in color). > > Now Phyllis again: > > I checked my US paperback edition when I got home last night, and > sure enough, it says "bright brown eyes." But I knew I'd > heard "bright green eyes" somewhere, so I checked my CoS audiotape > (US edition, Jim Dale reading) and Dale reads "bright green eyes." > So either he's reading from the hardback version that was > subsequently changed in the paperback, or he was in error. Now me, Julie: Um, in my little US Hardback, p 40, it says "On the third landing, a door stood ajar. Harry just caught sight of a pair of bright BROWN eyes staring at him before it closed with a snap." Emphasis added was mine. I'm not sure what you need out of the inside of the cover to tell you the edition, but mine does at least say Brown. If you're does indeed say green, you must have a mistake edition and it's probably worth something. Or perhaps her eye color really means nothing, and the fact that they're BRIGHT does? Julie From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 20:01:29 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:01:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] BRIGHT or colorful? was: Re: Are Ginny's Eyes Brown or Green? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021115200129.42717.qmail@web20001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46652 --- jastrangfeld wrote: > Now me, Julie: > > Um, in my little US Hardback, p 40, it says "On the > third landing, a > door stood ajar. Harry just caught sight of a pair > of bright BROWN > eyes staring at him before it closed with a snap." > Emphasis added was > mine. I'm not sure what you need out of the inside > of the cover to > tell you the edition, but mine does at least say > Brown. If you're > does indeed say green, you must have a mistake > edition and it's > probably worth something. Or perhaps her eye color > really means > nothing, and the fact that they're BRIGHT does? > > > Julie This was discovered a while back. The audio version does indeed say "green." Why? We don't know. I'd assume it was just a mistake. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From mdemeran at hotmail.com Fri Nov 15 23:07:15 2002 From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:07:15 -0600 Subject: TBAY Trustfund Harry Message-ID: <001c01c28cfb$bcd9b760$6401a8c0@MFD> No: HPFGUIDX 46654 Satisfied that Melody did not have a concussion from her encounter with the whomping willow, Meg motioned everyone out of Melody's room. Pip disappeared with the tea tray in the direction of the kitchen, leaving Frankie and Meg to wander through the dark halls of the Safe House. "What a day," groaned Meg. "Melody might be tiny, but even tiny people are heavy after you've carried them a mile through sand dunes! Oh well, she'll be fine." "Come on Captain Meg, I want to show you what else I did with the room," said Frankie as they left Melody to sleep off her tree attack. "I will be there in just a bit. I need some caffeine first. You know, tests and everything." Meg watched as Frankie skipped down the halls oblivious to the threats in Theory Bay. "Oh to be that innocent," Meg sighed, turning towards the kitchen. She adjusted her heavy backpack on her shoulders and headed toward the kitchen in hopes of finding enough caffeine to get her though another test block. "Care to explain yourself?" Grey Wolf sat staring at Meg while she fumbled around in the cabinets of the Safe House kitchen. "Explain what?" Meg jumped at the sound of another person in the kitchen. "Oh, hi Grey, blast it, where does Sneaky keep the caffeine?" "Above you to the left. And care to explain what just went on with Melody? Are you or are you not a medical student?" Grey Wolf's eyes bore holes in Meg as she retrieved two bottles of Diet Coke exactly where Grey Wolf had said they were, brought them back to the table Grey Wolf was sitting at and sat across from him. "Yes, I am a medical student, but I panicked. I have never seen anyone attacked by a tree before. I didn't know what to do. I failed." With that, Meg began banging her head on the table. "Dumb, dumb, dumb." "Meg, although that is a stunning rendition of a House elf, knock it off. You didn't fail. Melody will be fine." Grey Wolf reassured Meg. "Captain Meg, what are you doing?" Frankie asked as she wandered into the kitchen. Noticing the enormous werewolf delicately sipping from a Coke bottle completely dwarfed by his massive paws, Frankie shrieked and leaped into the pantry. "Grey Wolf, that was Frankie. Frankie, this is Grey Wolf," said Meg as she pounded on the pantry door. "Get out here! Now! Oh for crying out loud, you swim with kappas, sharks and electric eels everyday!" "Yes, but they have fins," said Frankie, sideling out of the pantry eyeing Grey Wolf warily. "I'll just head back up to the RATS room, okay?" Grey Wolf hid a toothy grin behind his Coke. "Grey, stop that. You are encouraging her. Frankie, it's just Grey Wolf. He doesn't bite, much. Grey Wolf won't hurt you. Now, why are you down here? I thought you were going to wait in the RATS room," Meg asked impatiently as she rejoined Grey Wolf at the table pulling Frankie with her. "Sit," Meg ordered, pushing Frankie into a chair. Realizing that Meg wasn't letting her go anywhere, Frankie said, "You didn't come, so I figured you might have fallen asleep here in the kitchen." Realizing that Meg was sitting next to Grey Wolf, Frankie continued, "Oh, I see, you were catching up with Grey Wolf. It all makes sense now. Ok, then, I will see you in the RATS room." "Wait, Frankie, stay, I have some thoughts I want to run past you and Grey," Meg said. "I have this theory I have been kicking around for the last few days. It started as just a random thought in Developmental Anatomy, but I think it has some merit. And if you guys like it, it might have a place on the F.I.R.S.T.M.E.M.O.R.Y.F.R.I.E.N.D." Meg watched as Grey Wolf and Frankie looked notably more interested than they had just a few moments before. "Well, Meg, out with it. You need sleep and I need be getting back," Grey Wolf said impatiently. "Ok, here it goes. Harry is a trust fund brat!" Meg paused taking in her friends' shocked expressions. "And it gets better! Malfoy would have contributed to Harry's fund, if only to save face. Think of the bang value! Even Captain Cindy would approve." Grey Wolf and Frankie looked at each other and back at Meg. They seemed to be trying to decide who would speak first. Finally, Frankie cleared her throat. "Meg, no offense, but have you lost your mind? What are you smelling in that lab? Hagrid tells Harry that his parents left him money. JKR has said that the Potters had money. What cannon could you possibly have for your ideas?" "Well, I was thinking about it and it just makes sense. Think about it. You have The-Boy-Who-Lived who is without parents at the tender age of fifteen months. He is going to need to be provided for and looked after. No matter how much money the Potters may have had. Harry could have even been poster child for all children who lost their parents to You-Know-Who. It would have been a big public effort to take care of the kids. What's more, the WW was probably paying the Dursleys to keep Harry. Otherwise, why didn't they dump him at the nearest orphanage? Yes, I know, ancient magic, but think about all the presents they pile on Dudley. Where is the money coming from? It's coming from the funds that the WW provides for Harry's care. Only it doesn't get there. It goes into buying Dudley presents. Kinda makes you feel ill, doesn't it?" Meg paused for breath, obviously proud of herself. Seeing Frankie and Grey Wolf's confused looks, she continued on quickly, "Think about it. It's a common response. When a tragedy happens in a close knit community, the rest of the community wants to do something, anything for the survivors. Harry is also a hero for the Wizarding World. It would be natural for people to want to help their hero. In addition, his story would have been tragic. Left without any family except some horrible Muggles. The Daily Prophet would have had a field day reporting who had donated and how much. The money could have gone to pay for any child left parentless by You-Know-Who. Neville, Susan Bones, anyone who needed money. Harry just hasn't seen his share of it. Some of it is paying for his education; some of it goes to the Dursleys for clothing, food and other expenses. The Wizard World wouldn't have known how much to pay the Dursleys, so they could have been getting much more than was needed. And we all know where that money went." Frankie nodded excitedly. "Think of their grocery bills to support Dudley!" she shouted and snatched up her dive knife, transfiguring it into a black marker. Grey Wolf caught her arm before she could start sketching on the table. "I think we can all comprehend household budgeting, compound interest and inflation without the diagrams," Grey Wolf said firmly. Frankie shrugged and twirled the marker in the air before dropping it back into the sheath. "Anyway, Meg, why hasn't Draco Malfoy rubbed Harry's face in that aspect of his finances yet?" asked Grey Wolf. "Are you suggesting that Malfoy the elder has withheld information from Malfoy the younger? Though I suppose it's not the first time Lucius has done so." "Drills..." said Meg faintly. "What drills?" asked Grey Wolf. "Uncle Vernon's drills. Think about it. Where is this manager of a drill company getting all his money? He is using Harry's money. In addition, Lucius isn't going to tell Draco that he had to give money to help raise Harry, that's a violation of Death Eater code. You do not give money to the victims. Especially not to the kid who took out your leader. It could have been his proof that he was under Imperious. Also, it would explain Arthur's hostility towards Lucius. He was able to buy his way out of Azkaban." Meg stopped and slumped back against her chair. "Meg, get back to those drills. How do they connect to this theory of yours?" Frankie asked, obviously interested in this new off-the-wall theory of Meg's. "Simple. We know that Gringott's vaults are underneath London. We know that Uncle Vernon sells drill and drill bits. We know that the MOM wasn't too worried when the Mason's saw the owls. What if Uncle Vernon is selling drills and drill bits to the Wizarding World as well as the regular world? We already know that wizards don't mind talking to him, even in the very first book, before he takes Harry in. That's where all of Uncle Vernon's money is coming from. He is extorting the wizards. Charging them extra for drills. Especially since they don't know the pounds to Galleons rate." Meg paused and took a long sip of her diet Coke. "Meg, they are wizards. They have spells." Grey Wolf pointed out. "Yes, Grey, but sometimes a spell can't solve everything. Sometimes, magically enhanced muggle technology works better. Remember in CoS, Fred and George pick the lock on the cupboard rather than using magical means. Doesn't one of them even say that Muggle tricks are useful?" Meg said quickly. "So, Meg, does this theory of yours have a name?" Frankie asked. Meg thought for a moment and went digging into her backpack. "Yes, I came up with something the other day in Histology. We were setting up for a review session in Gross Anatomy and our class president had the best saying. It stuck in my head and I realized it fit the theory perfectly. Ah, here it is!" Meg pulled out a piece of paper triumphantly from her Netter's Atlas. "See, here. DUH, TIME'S UP, SCALPELS DOWN (Dursleys use Harry's Trustfund In Making Extravagant Surprises, Useful Profiting, So Caring About Large Payouts Even Like Spending Donations of Wizard Nationals) What do you think? Isn't it perfect?" Frankie looked at it and smiled. "Meg, you have to get out of the lab more often. However, it does fit. Now, what do we do with it?" "Simple, we put it on the F.I.R.S.T.M.E.M.O.R.Y.F.R.I.E.N.D.." "Meg, what did you mean by it being bangy?" Grey Wolf asked. "Simple, it's bangy because think of the shock value for Harry. All those times Vernon complained about how much Harry cost, they were getting money for it and spending it on Dudley. It means that someone in the Wizarding World was keeping up with the Dursleys and should have known that Harry was being mistreated. Harry is going to snap when he finds that out." "How do we know the Wizarding World knows what Harry's situation is like?" Grey Wolf asked, seeming to enjoy making Meg explain her half-baked idea. "Grey, it's obvious the Wizarding World knew some of his situation. Look how the letters were addressed. First the cupboard under the stairs, then the smallest bedroom, etc. They knew what was going on and did nothing for Harry. Also, wizards were able to find Harry in public. They saw what type of people the Dursleys were. The Wizarding World should have intervened," Meg said. "Meg, what is this scribbled underneath your acronym? POOR BABY, NAPTIME? (Pity Over Ownings, Ron Becomes Awful Bratty Youngster. Now Arises Problems, Temptations In Major Economics) Is this what I think it is? Now, I know you have lost your mind. You are taking on the Ron fans." Frankie stared at Meg, unable to comprehend what her captain was thinking. "No, I am not. I am just thinking that Ron talks worse than he has it." Glancing out the window, Meg noticed how the sky was beginning to lighten. "But that will have to wait for another day. It's much too late to start that discussion and I have classes tomorrow." Pulling out her day planner, Meg looked at her calendar, "Grey, Frankie, can we schedule a sit down for tomorrow at 5 pm? I will explain my random Ron thought." Seeing Frankie and Grey Wolf nod in agreement, Meg reached into her backpack again and extracted a bottle of pills and a small glycine envelope of powder. Placing them on the table, she said, "Grey, would you mind giving these to Melody. Put this powder in her juice in the morning and give her two of these pills every six hours." "Meg, you know you aren't a doctor yet. You will be a good doctor one day, but you can't be prescribing medicines yet," Grey Wolf said, staring at the medicines on the table. "Relax Grey, they aren't real medicines, the powder is a vitamin concoction, basically just a ground up chewable kiddy vitamin. She is too little, really for anything else. The bottle of pills is just kid's Tylenol. Judging by how she looked, she is going to have a horrible headache in the morning. I don't want to be giving her anything stronger though and I don't think there were any kids' medicines in the Safe House. I just happened to have them on me because I spent the weekend watching little kids. But try not to let her have too many of those Tylenols anyway. She might have some disorientation from the head wounds. Can you keep an eye on her tomorrow for me?" Noticing Grey Wolf nodding in agreement, Meg quickly added, "Thanks. Now, are you heading off to bed? I think I am going to go camp out in the RATS room with Frankie." "No, I will be heading to bed in a bit, but first, I have a date with a tree. Does the RATS room need some new willow furniture?" Grey Wolf asked. "Grey, be careful! You saw what it did to Melody." Seeing the look on Grey Wolf's face, Meg quickly said, "Sure, I think we could use at least a rocking chair or something. Nevertheless, whatever you make is fine. Just make sure that Melody gets those medicines with breakfast. Now, we are off to bed. See you tomorrow to discuss the Ron thing. Night, Grey!" Satisfied with the plans, Grey Wolf got up from the table and walked out the kitchen door. Meg realized that there were glasses and bottles of diet Coke all over the kitchen table. Pulling out her scalpel, Meg pointed it around the room. In seconds, the room was spotless. Satisfied that Sneaky would not be picking up after them, Meg and Frankie got up and left the kitchen headed for the RATS room. Meg (who has been working on this post for almost a week now and who is thrilled it's finally finished) From chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Fri Nov 15 23:39:02 2002 From: chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia=20Chrysshallie?=) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 12:39:02 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Key points in CoS In-Reply-To: <018c01c28b93$0d8887a0$b8a0cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <20021115233902.18330.qmail@web10401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46655 --- Richelle Votaw wrote: Okay, according to The Leaky Cauldron, Filmforce had an interview with JKR. They quote her as saying: "Key things happen in book two. No one knows how important those things are... yet. There's a lot in there. And I know how difficult it was to get it all in there without drawing too much attention to the clues." <> Any other thoughts on the matter? Well, for one thing, we found out in this book that Riddle had jet black hair. Often we focus on Harry's eyes, but we forget one thing that JKR uses to describe Harry: He has untidy, jet black hair, and so did James. In PS/SS, Harry's hair was mentioned a great deal: chapter 2 (the Vanishing Glass): "'Comb your hair!' he (Uncle Vernon) barked" (p20) "Harry must have had more haircuts that the rest of the boys in his class put together, but it made no difference, his hair simply grew that way, all over the place." (p 20-21) "Once, Aunt Petunia, tired of Harry coming back from the barber's looking as though he hadn't been at all, had taken a pair of kitchen scissors and cut his hair short" "Next morning, however, he had got up to find his hair exactly as it had been before" (p23) Seems in Potterverse, hair plays a big role. All Weasleys have red hair. So could the fact that Harry and Tom Riddle have black hair be important? Also, the stone snakes guarding the chamber of secret have emerald eyes. Green eyes. Why did Slytherin chose emerald, not any other gems? And why is the Slytherin house colour green? Could it be because Slytherin himself has green eyes? Which could mean that the Potters are not the Griffindor's heirs, but Slytherin's heirs! What does everyone think of this hair thing? Vinnia http://careers.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Careers - 1,000's of jobs waiting online for you! From jdumas at kingwoodcable.com Sat Nov 16 00:14:49 2002 From: jdumas at kingwoodcable.com (Katze) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:14:49 -0600 Subject: Baslisk connections/Hair/Heirs and other stuff - was: Key info in CoS References: <29.3131330c.2b05858a@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DD58DF9.9020006@kingwoodcable.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46656 Roo writes; > I think Harry will return to the Chamber of Secrets. So far all we know > that was in there was the Basilisk, and a massive statue of Salazar > Slytherin. This could foreshadow a similar room that Godric created, or there > may be more in the Chamber of Secrets that will help Harry. I think the > revelation of Harry as a Parselmouth was also significant, and will be > important in later books. I don't recall Harry using this power in PoA or > GoF, yet it was of critical importance in CoS. >> I'm a firm believer that Harry can speak parseltongue naturally. He was just over a year old and not able to talk clearly to being with when Lily and James were killed. So it's really only sepculation that Harry got the talent to speak parseltongue from Voldemort. Vinnia Chrysshallie wrote: > Seems in Potterverse, hair plays a big role. All > Weasleys have red hair. So could the fact that Harry > and Tom Riddle have black hair be important? > > Also, the stone snakes guarding the chamber of secret > have emerald eyes. Green eyes. Why did Slytherin chose > emerald, not any other gems? And why is the Slytherin > house colour green? Could it be because Slytherin > himself has green eyes? > > Which could mean that the Potters are not the > Griffindor's heirs, but Slytherin's heirs! > > What does everyone think of this hair thing? If there is a Slytherin connection, I think James might actually be the connection to Slytherin instead of Lily. Harry has Lily's eyes, but he has James' hair. Dumbledore says that Harry has certain traits that Slytherin (or was of Voldemort?) prized above others, but if you look at some of the traits - resourcefulness, certain disregard for the rules - who doesn't fit those? We know so little about Lily and even less that James - there may end up being no connection to any of the houses at all. Though I still find it interesting that they lived in Godric's hollow, and not Salzar's cavern. jodel at aol.com wrote: > Wild thought; (I seem to be getting a lot of those lately.) > > Basilisks are created artificially. From an egg of more-or-less magical > properties (variations in theories preclude a definite statement here) which > has been hatched under a toad. > > We already know the Potterverse has a toad. > > Which tends never to be where it is supposed to. > > Has somebody toadnapped Trevor and set him tom hatching a Basilisk? I think you all might find this interesting... My husband and I did some research today on the Basilisk and found a very interesting link that got me thinking. This particular article, http://www.pantheon.org/articles/b/basilisk.html, says: "The mythical king of the serpents. The basilisk, or cockatrice, is a creature that is born from a spherical, yolkless egg, laid during the days of Sirius (the Dog Star) by a seven-year-old rooster and hatched by a toad." Further in the article we read: "The weasel is immune to its glance and if it gets bitten it withdraws from the fight to eat some rue, the only plant that does not wither, and returns with renewed strength." The connections I see are: Basilisk Sirius a toad (perhaps a Longbottom connection) and a weasel (perhaps a Weasley connection) I'm beginning to wonder if the Basilisk/Sirius connection might support the 'Sirius being a Slytherin' theory. Along with J0del, I also wonder who's toad was used to hatch the egg. Who's Roster was used to lay the egg in the first place? How do the Weasley's fit into this? I also have to ask - how does a Rooster lay an egg, and can you get a toad to sit still atop an egg long enough for it to hatch? Take care -Katze From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Nov 16 00:31:03 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 00:31:03 -0000 Subject: Forbidden Forest Forever (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46657 Forbidden Forest Forever To the tune of Strawberry Fields Forever by the Order of the Coleoptera (aka Beatles) Original to be heard at: http://www.geocities.com/michellesrockinatoz/RealAudio.html Dedicated to Steve Vander Ark THE SCENE: The Forbidden Forest. ENTER RON & HARRY (in a state of intense anxiety), accompanied by a relaxed and cheerful HAGRID HARRY & RON Filch has sent us down, and we're going to Forbidden Forest He must abhor us, he's hoping we'll get hung no doubt Forbidden Forest Forever HAGRID Walking ain't easy with eyes closed, missing so much that's grand to see (ENTER the FORD ANGLIA, its motor purring affectionately) Cars will grow feral if they can get the wherewithal, then they will motor through the trees HAGRID & FORD ANGLIA Please do not meltdown while we're going to Forbidden Forest It shall not bore us, and all our friends are coming out Forbidden Forest Forever (Enter ARAGOG, and his offspring to the Power Ten) ARAGOG No one I think is in my web, I mean my kids have got to eat. That is you can you know drop in but it's all right, that is I think your friends are sweet CHILDREN OF ARAGOG If we take you down, we will drag you to Forbidden Forest Huge trees and horrors, and spider webs all hung about Forbidden Forest Forever (Enter CHORUS OF CENTUARS) CHORUS OF CENTAURS Always, no sometimes, cry "Alas", but so it has been through ages gone I think we know some things they're deep but could be wrong, that is we just don't much let on. We won't horse around in the next eon, Forbidden Forest Look how bright Mars is! The Zodiac has quite a clout Forbidden Forest Forever (Enter FLUFFY, CHORUS OF WEREWOLVES, CHORUS OF UNICORNS & CHORUS OF TROLLS [for choral backup] ) ALL (to HARRY & RON) You two come have down to our part of town, Forbidden Forest Tyrannosaurus compared to us are Brussels Sprouts! Forbidden Forest Forever! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Nov 16 00:42:22 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 00:42:22 -0000 Subject: The Old Hogwarts Master (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46658 Note: Kind of an obscure song, but I've wanted to filk this scene for a long time, and it matches closely. Coincidentally, the original song also involves "Time-turning." The Old Hogwarts Master (CoS, Chap. 13) To the tune of The Old Music Master by Hoagy Carmichael An excerpt of Carmichael's rendition may be heard at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/- /B00000DHII/qid=1037407182/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/103-0594802-8839867? v=glance&s=music THE SCENE: The office of the Headmaster. Via TOM RIDDLE'S diary, HARRY finds himself at the Hogwarts of 50 years earlier, before Headmaster DIPPET (who is unaware of HARRY'S presence) HARRY One night long ago, 06/13/43 The old Hogwarts Master seemed as stressed as could be I said to him, "Sir, I do not mean to annoy ." Then right through the doorway stepped that Riddle prefect boy RIDDLE You gotta help me, Hogwarts Master, That orphanage is a disaster! If I could spend my summer days Here at Hogwarts, I'll be OK DIPPET I'll say this word to you, young Thomas You're a lad with a lot of promise I must disclose we're gonna close If that horror can't be disposed That terror remains upon our scene Quite intent on killing teens Although I have a soft spot for waifs Go back to your orphanage where you'll be safe RIDDLE Supposing one could catch this culprit Crawling out from the Occult-it? (Though I've no familiarity With this ghastly barbarity) HARRY The young Riddle Prefect slouched right out of the room An intense expression his dark features assumed He ran into Dumbledore whose hair then was brown Then straight to the Potions lab he suddenly heads down He stood outside for sixty minutes Till a voice said, "See that box, get in it." And then I heard Tom Riddle say, RIDDLE You must listen, Hagrid That thing's out killing kids You've got to stop its foul play HARRY Hagrid claimed his little pet Didn't pose the slightest threat Riddle began to raise his wand And a monstrous thing commenced to abscond `Twas multi-eyed with fangs like razors Everything whirled as it got crazier (HARRY materializes back into his room, and tells Ron what has occurred) I'm back into the present day You can take it from me Riddle's right as can be Hagrid op'ed the Chamber some way, Yeah! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From heidi at barefootpuppets.com Sat Nov 16 03:24:18 2002 From: heidi at barefootpuppets.com (barefootpuppets) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 03:24:18 -0000 Subject: Bloody Important: BBC Interview, Dumbledore's "Gleam" and the Big V's defeat Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46659 Alright, I have posted previously about a very plausible explanation for the gleam in Dumbledore's eyes and the use of Harry's blood in Voldemort's downfall. I wanted to add this from an interview with JKR... >>BBC: And how vital is Book Four in the 7 book series for Harry? Crucial. JKR: Book Four's a very very VERY important book. Something very important happens in Book Four. But also, it's literally a central book. It's almost the heart of the series, and it's pivotal. It's very difficult to talk about all seven books. I can't wait until the day when someone's read all seven and I can talk completely freely about them, but it's a very important book. << OK. So we know that Book 4 is pivotal. I propose that the "something very important" is that Voldemort uses Harry's blood in his resurrection. Why? We know from Dumbledore's comments at the end of GoF, that Harry is protected by some more "old magic" while he is in the care of his relatives. Voldemort even confesses (at the beginning of GoF when he's talking with Wormtail and during their duel at the end) that he is unable to touch him there. WHAT IF...this "old magic" that protects Harry has a bit more behind it. Perhaps "in the care of his relatives" could also translate to "in the care of those who share his blood." COULD IT BE that Voldemort is now, in some magical sense, a blood- relative of Harry's? Voldemort was, after all, unable to kill Harry during their duel. In fact, all of his death eaters were likewise thwarted. Since Harry was brought via portkey to Voldemort at Voldemort's bidding, it could be that this made Harry "in the care of Voldemort" who called him. Perhaps Voldemort is unaware of some of the total ramifacations of this "old magic" placed by Dumbledore. Has Voldemort conferred his own bit of protection upon Harry? Could it be that his resurrection "technique" combined with Dumbledore's "old magic" used to protect Harry will be a part of V's downfall? Perhaps...Voldemort Is Thwarted As Magic Is Nullified By Old Magic By- product??? VITAMIN BOMB, anyone? Heidi R. From kaityf at jorsm.com Sat Nov 16 00:39:45 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:39:45 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Re: Lucius and the Diary In-Reply-To: <20021115155256.5701.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1037348218.1119.32331.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021115180840.02fef658@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46660 Anne wrote: >Here is an idea I haven't seen before. What if >Diary!Riddle told Lucius to plant the diary in a >student's things? I can't see Lucius having such a >thing and never trying to find out what it's for, so I >think it quite likely that he would have written in >it, especially after the fall of Voldemort. Then >Lucius and Diary!Riddle may have worked out the plot >between them. I figured that the diary was one of the many things Lucius has in that special room he mentioned in the shop in Knockturn alley. I also figured that Lucius has many things belonging to LV. I'm also guessing that he knows exactly what everything is for and how it's used. I'm wondering what made him choose that year to pass the diary to Ginny. I also wonder if he had always intended to pass the diary to some unsuspecting Hogwart's student or if the encounter with the Weasleys in the bookstore made him decide to stick it in Ginny's cauldron. Lucius clearly knew something was going to happen at Hogwarts and he most certainly had a hand in planning it. If he didn't, why would Dobby know about it? He was afraid of telling Harry what he knew because he'd been talking with other house elves; he didn't want to say bad things about his master. Was he in contact with LV somehow? I didn't think he knew a lot about how the diary works because he didn't seem to have provided Riddle with much information, which I would think Riddle would ask for. Would Lucius lie? I wouldn't think so. It seems like that would be too risky and we have no indication that Riddle knew something other than what Ginny wrote to him when she had the diary. And if I remember correctly (a big "if"), Riddle first learns about the great Harry Potter through Ginny. Riddle also says that his original goal had been to get rid of the mudbloods at Hogwarts, but after learning about Harry from Ginny, he changed his goal to getting rid of him. So why was Harry in danger? Why did Dobby want Harry to stay away from Hogwarts that year? Was the goal to get rid of mudbloods first and then half bloods? Anyway, I think Lucius knew exactly what that diary was for and he knew because Voldemort had probably told him. When he told him, I don't know, but I do think Lucius knew and is doing what Voldemort would want him to do with it. Why that year? Anne also wrote: >As to why Tom Riddle would have originally made such a diary, I believe >what he told Harry was at least part >of the truth -- he wanted to leave something behind to carry on the "heir >of Slytherin" work he had begun. >It was sort of an ego-trip, that he would make it possible for he himself >to finish this work someday, >even though he was already planning to become a powerful dark wizard and >go on to bigger and "better" >things. And as he was brilliant, ambitious, and the creator of the diary >himself, I don't think >Real!Riddle would ever doubt that he would have the ability to control >Diary!Riddle should they ever meet. I agree. I'm sure it was also a failsafe type thing. If something happened to him later, he could come back through his memory. This is part of why I think Lucius knew exactly what the diary was for and how it worked. I keep thinking that Lucius was helping Voldemort come back into power. I don't think that he was trying to power for himself. He had to know what was in that diary, which means he wouldn't try to take power by using an old version of Voldemort. Maybe part of the reason that he chose this year to do this is that the Ministry chose this year to do raids and he was afraid of being caught with too many things he shouldn't have before he had a chance to use them. This, of course, begs the question of why he hadn't done it before. He had 12 years. Why wait all that time? From Audra1976 at aol.com Sat Nov 16 03:42:28 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:42:28 EST Subject: History of wand usage was: Wand-free magic ? Message-ID: <1c0.19db66a.2b0718a4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46661 Julie writes: << Well further research of wand usage brings up Lord Voldemort. It also brings up Odysseus. In specific: Circe The next stop was the island of Circe (Aeaea), where Odysseus sent a scouting party ahead of the rest of the group. She invited the scouting party to a feast, the food laced with one of her magical potions, and she then changed all the men into pigs with a wand after they gorged themselves on it. >> Me: GREAT reference, thanks, Ms. World History major! I have a copy of a Waterhouse painting called "Circe Offering the Cup to Ulysses" hanging in my apartment. I love Waterhouse, and I obviously figured Circe was a character in The Odyssey, but I never knew the exact story behind it. So we have a story of a wand being used during the time of the Trojan War, circa 1200 BC, but the question is not what year the story is taking place, but what year the story was written. Homer was retelling an old myth in The Odyssey, wasn't he? It doesn't prove that wands were used at the time of the Trojan War, only that the author knew of the usage of wands in his own time and gave his sorceress one in the story. And I'm pretty sure Homer was before the time of Socrates even, so that would mean wands were used way before 382 BC, therefore Ollivander couldn't have made the first wands. Audra From sholden at flash.net Fri Nov 15 18:42:59 2002 From: sholden at flash.net (Sara) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:42:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] BRIGHT or colorful? was: Re: Are Ginny's Eyes Brown or Green? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021115184259.36770.qmail@web41212.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46662 Now me, Julie: Um, in my little US Hardback, p 40, it says "On the third landing, a door stood ajar. Harry just caught sight of a pair of bright BROWN eyes staring at him before it closed with a snap." Emphasis added was mine. I'm not sure what you need out of the inside of the cover to tell you the edition, but mine does at least say Brown. If you're does indeed say green, you must have a mistake edition and it's probably worth something. Or perhaps her eye color really means nothing, and the fact that they're BRIGHT does? Julie Hi! I'm kinda new, just lurking a lot. Wanted to put my two knuts in for this one. I think we are all confusing this with Dobby's eyes. Dobby spied at Harry in the Dursley's backyard with his GREEN eyes. Dobby is the one that has green eyes, not Ginny. In my book (US Version) for Ginny's eyes it says "brown" too. But Dobby's eyes are green. Hope that clears some things up. --Sara __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From bloubet at incanmonkey.com Sat Nov 16 00:33:14 2002 From: bloubet at incanmonkey.com (Beth Loubet) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:33:14 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] 382 BC (Ollivander's) References: <1037348218.1119.32331.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <00bb01c28d07$c38bed10$7001a8c0@bloubetdellpc> No: HPFGUIDX 46663 From: Audra1976 at aol.com >I'm not a history buff, so I don't know exactly what was going on in the >world in 382 BC when an Ollivander supposedly started making wands. I >wonder if there was any significance to that specific year? I was able to find a >few sources that say that say (in the real world at least) that the Druids in >Britain were the first to use wands, and they go back as early as 500 BC. >This means that the original Ollivander was probably a Druid. >Audra The following are all I could find about that particular year. None of them are ringing any bells for me. Anyone else? 382-376 BC ---- Third Dionysius War After a 10-year lapse in major controntations, Dionysius the Elder (c.430-367 BC), tyrant of Syracuse, led a large Syracusan force against the Carthaginians in western Sicily. At first he was victorious, but then he suffered a serious defeat at Cronium near Palermo. Control of western Sicilian lands was ceded to Carthage, with the Syracusan boundary being established at the Halycus (Platani) River. Quoted from "Dictionary of Wars" by George C. Kohn Births a.. Philip II, king of Macedon .382 B.C.: Spartans seize citadel of Thebes. .382 B.C.: Gaul burns Rome. (Rome) 382 - Consuls are replaced by the military tribunes Sp. Papirius Crassus, L. Papirius Mugillanus, Ser. Cornelius Maluginensis, Q. Servilius Fidenas, C. Sulpicius Camerinus, & L. Aemilius Mamercinus Antigonos (c.382-301 BC) Macedonian commander who sought to win control of the empire of Alexander the Great after the latter's death. He was outmaneuvered by rivals until he was killed at the Battle of Ipsus, but his grandson (also Antigonos) regained control of Macedonia and established a stable kingdom. Andromeda (Oxford) Ltd 1998. All Rights Reserved bel From Audra1976 at aol.com Sat Nov 16 04:29:38 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 23:29:38 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Re: Lucius and the Diary Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46664 In a message dated 11/15/02 10:38:45 PM, kaityf at jorsm.com writes: << And if I remember correctly (a big "if"), Riddle first learns about the great Harry Potter through Ginny. Riddle also says that his original goal had been to get rid of the mudbloods at Hogwarts, but after learning about Harry from Ginny, he changed his goal to getting rid of him. So why was Harry in danger? Why did Dobby want Harry to stay away from Hogwarts that year? Was the goal to get rid of mudbloods first and then half bloods? Why that year? >> Me: To me, Dobby's warning Harry shows that Dobby: 1.) knew of Lucius's plan to plant the get the diary into Hogwarts, and 2.) knew that the diary contained the essence of Tom Riddle who would someday become Voldemort (his hint "not He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named" implies Voldemort before he was Voldemort), and 3.) knew that Voldemort tried to kill Harry and that's why he warned Harry that he was in danger and to stay away from Hogwarts. Lucius at least knew how the diary worked, even if he didn't write to Diary!Tom and explain his plans. I believe Lucius planned on Diary!Tom learning about Harry and coming after him. Diary!Tom does say that he learned about Harry's history from Ginny, and since he planned on killing Harry, he didn't really have any reason to lie to him. If Lucius had told him about Harry, I think he would have stated so. Diary!Tom says: "`My diary. Little Ginny's been writing in it for months and months, telling me all her pitiful worries and woes - how her brothers tease her, how she had to come to school with secondhand robes and books, how" -Riddle's eyes glinted "how she didn't think famous, good, great Harry Potter would ever like her . . . ." "Ginny poured out her soul to me, and her soul happened to be exactly what I wanted .... I grew stronger and stronger on a diet of her deepest fears, her darkest secrets." This says to me that Diary!Tom was sort of in a dormant state until Ginny began writing to him, and the first thing Ginny told him was about Harry. He goes on to say: "..Ginny told me all about you, Harry," said Riddle. "Your whole fascinating history. " His eyes roved over the lightning scar on Harry's forehead, and their expression grew hungrier. "I knew I must find out more about you, talk to you, meet you if I could." ORIGINALLY, back 50 years ago, Tom created the diary to open the Chamber again and rid the school of muggle-borns: "I decided to leave behind a diary, preserving my sixteen-year-old self in its pages, so that one day, with luck, I would be able to lead another in my footsteps, and finish Salazar Slytherin's noble work." "Well, you haven't finished it," said Harry triumphantly. "No one's died this time, not even the cat. In a few hours the Mandrake Draught will be ready and everyone who was Petrified will be all right again -" BUT, Diary!Tom of CoS's main goal was to confront Harry, just as Lucius suspected he would: "Haven't I already told you," said Riddle quietly, "that killing Mudbloods doesn't matter to me anymore? For many months now, my new target has been -you." Audra From jodel at aol.com Sat Nov 16 05:40:02 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 00:40:02 EST Subject: Interpretation of "elves" Message-ID: <105.1fcec7db.2b073432@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46665 Audra writes: >>Look what she did with elves. To me, before HP, elves were beautiful, wise, human-looking creatures with pointed ears, nothing like Dobby and Winky. << You grew up on Tolkein elves. Which are a fairly recent literary inovation (around WWII, although he might not have been the first person to apply the term "elf" to that particular style of being.) Actually, Dobby and Winky are elves very much in the English folklore tradition. What Tolkein called "elves" would have been refered to as the Sidhe. The folkloric tradition seemes to have used the term "elf" almost interchangably with that of goblin, hobgoblin, hob, or dwarf, and all seem to be variants on the concept popularized by Mrs. Ewing's "Story of the Brownies". (Familiar to anyone who has ever been one.) In short, either house spirits or undeground dwellers generally refered to as the "little people" or the "good people" even though the interpretations varied as to just what size they might have been. Which term would have been used tended to vary as to region, but the creatures described seem to have been generally similar. Dobby and Winkey are clearly in the traditional "House spirit" mode in which the spirit is bound to a place (not a family, however) until released by being given clothing. One of the best stories about this form of spirit is K.M. Briggs's Hobberdy Dick. -JOdel From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Nov 16 08:48:20 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 03:48:20 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] 382 BC (Ollivander's) Message-ID: <128.1b5186a8.2b076054@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46666 > Audra: > > >I'm not a history buff, so I don't know exactly what was going on in the > >world in 382 BC when an Ollivander supposedly started making wands. I > >wonder if there was any significance to that specific year? I was able to > find a > >few sources that say that say (in the real world at least) that the Druids > in > >Britain were the first to use wands, and they go back as early as 500 BC. > >This means that the original Ollivander was probably a Druid. > (Staying in the real world for the time being.) Well, I don't want to open the whole Druid can of worms. It's one of those problematical concepts, like the idea of the Celts, which have both popular academic meanings and whose original significance is fraught with uncertainty and controversy. At least for academics. I'd better stop there, I think. ;-) But....I just wonder *where* the original Ollivander started making wands. If the date is recorded, it is unlikely to be in pre-Roman, or pre-Roman-discovered Britain. In 382 BC, we're in the realms of British pre-history and before the Romans even started expanding out of Italy. It's even before the Greek Pytheas wrote his account (in about 320) of his voyage in which he quite possibly circumnavigated Britain and which is probably the first direct encounter between Britain and the Classical world. This isn't to say that Britain was totally out of touch with continental Europe. That's not true at all. But there IMHO, there's considerable doubt as to whether it would have been possible to assign a precise date to the setting up of a British wand-makers back in the pre-Roman Iron Age as Britain had no direct connection with a literate, calendar-using society which could have recorded this. Either Ollivander wasn't British, or the British wizarding community was in much closer contact with the wizarding communities of other, more civilised societies than the rest of the population. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 08:55:51 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 08:55:51 -0000 Subject: History of wand usage was: Wand-free magic ? In-Reply-To: <1c0.19db66a.2b0718a4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46667 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Audra1976 at a... wrote: > before 382 BC, therefore Ollivander couldn't have made the first wands. Well-- Not the Ollivander who sold Harry (and Voldemort) his wand. One of this Ollivander's ancestors might have, though. I think the first wand was not a *fine* one. After all-- makers of *fine* wands since 382 BC. Druids -- for some reason I think they used long and rough ones... a staff that was made of each individual's personal type of Wood. Also that each Druid made his magical staff himself, so that there weren't any 'makers of fine wands'. Circe might have had one which she made herself. Invention of the wand... It's something referred to - much like a Muggle might speak of wheel, fire or hammer. -- Finwitch From aashby.aashby at verizon.net Sat Nov 16 06:56:52 2002 From: aashby.aashby at verizon.net (theatresm2002) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 06:56:52 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Analyze This, Voldie (REDEMPTION considered) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46668 TBAY: Analyze This, Voldie(REDEMPTION considered) Amy smiled and gave a satisfied sigh as she slumped against the wall of the elevator, on the way to her office on the 65th floor Friday morning. She'd spent another quiet night at home curled up with a glass of wine and her laptop, trolling through the HPFGU digest and wandering about the shores of Theory Bay. (She'd never yet had the guts or inclination to submit a Theory of her own, but she hardly needed to: there were so many interesting ones already afloat.) There was nothing more relaxing than examining them all ? except, of course, looking for fanfiction updates involving that paragon of anti-heroes, Severus Snape . She shook her head to clear it of the thoughts that raised. Today was a work day: she had to delve into other people's fantasies, not her own *though, by golly, it's hard to concentrate on anything else when you have Snape on the brain.* The elevator chimed, the doors opened, she strode briskly down the hall to her office, and opened the door and found the reception area full of ominous-looking, cloaked and hooded strangers: each one's face was obscured by a silver mask, and one of them was holding her receptionist at bay in a corner, with what looked suspiciously like a wand. "Carol?" she asked cautiously. "Your, um, first appointment's already inside," Carol replied nervously, plastered against the wall. "I canceled your others ? looks like this one might take a while " "Okay uh, why don't you take a coffee break, then, Carol? Hell, take the rest of the day." "Thanks, I'll do that " Carol said, eyes fixed on the hooded stranger as she moved to her desk and scrabbled about for her purse. Amy cautiously skirted the group of men and quietly entered her inner sanctum. He was inhumanly tall, and so pale as to glow in the morning light that filtered through the window: one skeletal hand rested on the sill as he stared down at the ant-like people hurrying to work, 65 floors below. "Beautiful, isn't it, Doctor?" he addressed her in a high, strained voice. "So many Muggles going about their pitiful little lives unaware of the horrible fate that awaits them. So much delicious agony, so many possibilities to explore. " He let out an eerie giggle, and the sound of it sent a shiver up her spine. A few of her patients were a couple bristles short of a full broom, but this was a different matter entirely: this guy was wacko. "Lord Voldemort, I presume?" Amy asked politely, and managed to keep her voice far more calm than she felt. *I hope Carol stops by the Security Office on her way out * "Correct, Doctor. How perceptive, for a Muggle." He turned from the window and fixed her with deep-set, glowing red eyes. *This one isn't going to win GQ's Sexiest Man of the Year, that's for sure.* "Forgive my forthrightness ? *please*," Amy added hastily, remembering LV's propensity to fire Crucio at hapless bystanders, "but to what do I owe the, er, *honor* of this visit?" The malice in his ? it's ? his eyes faltered ever so slightly, and he snapped out, "I should think that would be obvious." *Ah. One of those `I know I need help but don't you dare suggest that I do,' types.* "Well, as I am a rather ordinary Muggle with no magical ability whatever, I assume you would simply like to talk," Amy reasoned. "After all, I can't possibly aid you with your fiendish plot to overthrow the Wizarding World and rule the entire planet, obliterating all Muggles in the process." He suddenly stiffened, and then glided toward her: she had to crane her neck to meet those unsettling eyes, and repressed another shudder when one bony finger brushed the air next to her cheek. "Yessssss," he hissed, and grimaced, showing crooked, fanglike teeth ? what passed for a smile for him, Amy guessed. "I hoped you would understand: Pettigrew has chosen well." And again he giggled. "Well, let's get on with it then, shall we?" Amy said brightly, and moved to her chair, anxious to put as much space between them as possible. "I'm sure you're very busy ?" and she turned abruptly to stare when LV gave a strangled sob in response. "That's part of the problem: I'm not," he whispered, and clutched his bony hands together, twisting them so tightly Amy feared he'd break the bones. "Then have a seat, and let's talk about it," she said, and whipped out her notebook and pen. "Is that really necessary?" LV asked uneasily. "It helps me keep track of where we've been, and anticipate topics we might want to explore," Amy explained apologetically. "I can give it to you when you leave, if you like, or destroy it." "Oh, yesssss," he sighed. "Desssstroy .. I'd like that very much," he added dreamily, and wandered over to the couch. *Holy cripes, I don't think he's talking about only the notes . Oh, well, I've had a good life .* "There is one little matter that requires clarification first," LV said matter-of-factly as he sat. "Pettigrew worked out the exchange rate for your hourly fee to be 40 Galleons ?" Amy was tempted to waive her fee entirely, given the fact that she wouldn't be around to enjoy it, and in hopes that if she did he might leave without doing the big AK on her ? " ? but I'm a little short at the moment ? my means are very limited," LV said with slight embarrassment and no little modesty. "I was wondering if we might work out something else. Barter, say?" "What did you have in mind?" Amy asked, surprised. "Well, I perceive from your interests," LV said, waving a hand at her desk and bookshelves ? in disarray now, rifled, she supposed, by LV, "that you are intrigued with certain types of individuals; I have one in mind that I might lend you for study." Amy's cheeks burned. Thank God she'd left her printout of *The Buried Life* at home. But he couldn't possibly mean -- "The fellow I have in mind is a quite interesting specimen ? once an avid follower of mine, now sadly lacking in enthusiasm, though he still has his uses name of Snape, Severus Snape." *Oh, God, I've died and gone to heaven. Snape in my office, on my couch, spilling his guts about his motives ? I'd love to know if Big Bang or Road to Damascus or Sweet George is the right one * "I'm afraid he's a little lacking in social skills," LV said apologetically, "but I've no doubt a woman of your intelligence and ingenuity could find interesting things about him." Amy considered the offer for a moment, and then said decisively, "Throw in a can of Redi-Whip and some maraschino cherries and you have a deal." Voldemort looked at her as if she'd sprouted horns from her head. "*Really*? I never would have guessed Oh, well: to each his own." He shrugged. "He'll be in first thing Monday." *Oh, Lord, an entire weekend of anticipation and planning .* Amy shook herself out of her delighted shock and turned her attention back to her client. "So, you think you don't have enough to do." LV started to speak, and stopped himself. "Aren't you going to have me lie down?" he asked, disappointment obvious on his face. "Oh, by all means: whatever makes you feel comfortable." He arranged himself on the couch with satisfaction, stretching his skeletal limbs out so his feet hung over the end ? *Note to self: burn couch.* -- and said "Yes." "What makes you feel that?" He shrugged again. "I just do." This was going to be a long session. "I don't mean to belittle your feelings," Amy said cautiously, "but I think you must admit you had quite a lot to do in Book 4." "Oh, *that*," LV waved away her observation. "Same old routine: trot me out for a little bit at the beginning, trot me out at the end: nice boy, Voldie, thank you very much, now go back to your disgusting little cage and be a good boy until I need you again." "What about Book 2? Tom Riddle played a big part in that." The red eyes rolled alarmingly. "That wasn't me ? not me *now*; I mean, it was a *portion* of me, but . Oh, Merlin's balls, I don't know what I mean. It's all so *confusing*. *She*," he added with a snarl, "does not appreciate all the things I could do for her." "*She*? You mean JKR?" "Yes, *Her*." "Oh." The light was beginning to dawn for Amy. "You mean you feel like a *Convenient Plot Device*, not a fully realized Character ? not a real Evil Overlord." "Precisely," he spat out. "Well --" Amy said cautiously, and then decided to bite the bullet: she wanted him out of her office as quickly as possible, and his evil goons too, " -? Look, we could draw this out for a long time, over many sessions -? you'd end up owing me Malfoy, Sr., too, and frankly I wouldn't know what to do with him, he's not my type -- so let's cut to the chase: I'm going to use a technique called Tough Love, and I need you to bear with me. No curses or retaliation, agreed? I'm saying this for your own good." He stared at her curiously, but nodded, and raised his hand in what looked suspiciously like `Scout's Honor.' Amy took a deep breath. "Have you ever considered that that's exactly what you are?" He sat bolt upright. "You're not Siru ? er, serious!" "Afraid so." He stared at her for another long moment, and then began to tremble uncontrollably. "Noooooo!" he wailed. "I want to be an Evil Overlord! I want to make people tremble in fear and loathing! *I want to rule the world*!" And he bounced up and down on the couch, like Dudley Dursley denied a fourth slice of chocolate cake. "Well, you don't act like one ? not a serious one, at any rate," Amy observed succinctly. "You have the loathing part down all right, but you stink at the rest. You talk the talk, but you don't walk the walk." The comment shocked him so much that the tantrum ended immediately. "What do you mean?" "I mean, there are Evil Overlords, and then there are arrogant, insane nuts who *think* they're Evil Overlords. And you've been acting like the latter." "But I've studied all the best," he gasped in dismay. "Goldfinger, Dr. No ?" "And that's precisely the problem. A *real* Evil Overlord," explained Amy, "doesn't come up with a convoluted plan to kill the Hero involving hydrochloric acid, shark tanks, or a buzz saw: a real Evil Overlord pulls a gun out of his desk drawer ? or a wand, in your case ? and just offs him. Or he has one of his trusted henchmen do it in the Evil Overlord's presence. Simple." "I don't have convoluted plans," LV retorted indignantly. "I think they're rather elegant in their ?" "Oh, COME ON," Amy roared. *Boy, is this guy deep in denial.* "You had him at the end of Book 4, Voldemort, you had the little bastard right there, and he got away because you couldn't resist the urge to PLAY with him!" "I do not ?" LV began with great dignity, and stopped himself abruptly. "'Little bastard'? You don't like him either?" "Nope. He's annoyingly immature and self-absorbed ? that's something *She* had better change," Amy said darkly, "and fast, before even Snape isn't enough to keep me interested. But back to my point: if, for example, you'd simply strangled the little pup in his cot instead of trying all the fancy hocus-pocus I mean, *that* should have tipped you off, right there; `oops, magic backfired the first time, maybe I ought to try something ordinary,' but no, you have to show off " LV hung his head. "That has always been a failing of mine," he admitted. "I've always been so proud of my magical prowess ." Amy sniffed. "You're not alone. Some males," she said cautiously, and mentally ducked to avoid the flames shooting her way, "have the misapprehension that they've got 10 ? inches of oak when all they have is 6 inches of willow. You're not alone," she added sympathetically, "and it's not a fatal flaw, but you have to face up to it. And you have *got* to get better role models. Think Hitler: Lord knows he wasn't a great physical specimen, but he was charismatic, and he had the smarts to appeal to a very broad base of support before he tried the whole conquering-the-world-thing. There are some surprising parallels with your situation ? well, you know what I mean." LV looked at her blankly. "No, I don't." "Oh. Well, drop by a bookstore on the way home and pick up a biography. That's your homework for this session." He nodded obediently. "All right, so we've identified several problems already: arrogance, overestimation of ones' abilities, and the tendency to form elaborate plans which can too easily go awry. Anything else bothering you?" "Yes," he whispered. "The nightmare." *Oh, God, I hate Dream Analysis.* "Tell me," Amy sighed, and propped her feet up on the coffee table. "It happened just a couple of nights ago," LV began hesitantly. "I found myself in the backyard of a little house, on the edge of a lovely, sheltered bay. There was a young girl in the yard, in a nightgown and topcoat and an exotic headpiece, and she was swinging a toy boat on a string and singing something about `redemption,' and `Dalmatian roads' It made me quite nauseous, actually," he added with a frown, "all that spinning around ." Amy abruptly sat upright. "Wait a minute," she interrupted him. "This sounds familiar. Was there a big, hairy wolf in the dream?" "Yes," LV said, startled. "Have you had it too?" "I've read about it," Amy admitted, "and it's most intriguing." "But what does it mean?" LV asked desperately. "It means," Amy said slowly, "that some readers have hit on the idea of Redemption as a Theme of the books, and at least one them is perceptive enough to believe that you might be capable of being Redeemed." "Like *Snape* might be Redeemed?" LV whispered, appalled, and shuddered. "Exactly. But I don't think that's anything *you* have to worry about," she added kindly. "Why not?" he asked indignantly, and Amy repressed a sigh. *Some folks don't have enough problems of their own: no, they have to go borrowing trouble .* "It goes back to our discussion of *Her*. She uses you like a stereotypic villain ? the epitome of evil; it's as though you're a concept rather than an actual, dimensional character. For you to be Redeemable ? in any convincing manner, at any rate ? She'd have to develop you a lot more than She has, in my opinion. "And another point is," Amy said, getting more excited by the moment, "if you're Redeemable, what's the use of continuing the story? It's obvious Her sympathies lie with Potter; if she takes you out of the equation, he has nothing to fight against except his own adolescent insecurities ? boring! And, moreover, a last-minute Conversion of the Evil Overlord to Good -- or, at least, Not So Evil ? is not only anticlimactic; it would take one helluva Big Bang, and I doubt even She could pull that off. Although She's surprised us before; She's almost Machivellian that way." "But," Voldemort interjected with a sudden flash of insight, "there are interesting possibilities in the *potential* for Redemption, aren't there?" "Oh my, yes. But if She hasn't bothered to develop you enough to make it credible, it won't happen. Or it shouldn't." The Dark Lord moaned and covered his face with his bony hands (thankfully). "What can I do? How do I get Her to develop me? Even if I don't opt for Redemption, I want to be the best Evil Overlord I can be ." Amy thought about it for a moment, and then slowly said, "You know, I think there might be something " LV's head popped up. "What? I'll do anything! I don't want to be an incompetent Evil Overlord!" "You could try not cooperating," Amy suggested. He looked at her blankly, and she sighed. *Evil Overlords can be **so** dense.* "Don't do what She wants you to," she counseled. "When She tells you to give in to your worst attributes and failings, refuse. When She tells you to go back to your cage, defy Her ? after all, She gives that little snot tons of attention; She could spare a bit more for you. Even if that doesn't force Her to develop you to the point that Redemption is credible, your non-cooperation would drive Her crazy." "Might that not make it more difficult for Her to finish the books in a timely manner?" LV observed. "Possibly, but that's not your problem. If it does, so what?" (Amy again mentally ducked flames from all the readers frustrated with the wait for Book 5). "You know She's going to try to let Potter destroy you: you'd be delaying that. Maybe it will give you enough time to get the upper hand." He sucked in a deep breath. "I think I like *that* even better than flirting with Redemption. That is a truly Evil plan," he said in a hushed, admiring voice. "Thank you. Sometimes it just takes an objective eye," Amy replied modestly, and rose from her chair. "I think if you work on the problems we've discussed, you'll have a very good chance to become a Truly Evil Overlord." "I feel *so* much better; thank you," he murmured as he rose, quite forgetting that Evil Overlords most definitely do not say `thank you.' "Oh, not at all. Feel free to stop by if you need to talk again. But, uh " Amy added hesitantly, "could you ask your groupies not to terrorize Carol next time? Good receptionists are hard to find." "Oh, *that* ? they get a little over-enthusiastic sometimes ? boys will be boys, you know," LV said with another ghastly smile. "They were just playing." "That reminds me," Amy retorted, "I have one last piece of advice: if you get another chance to kill the little bastard, do it immediately ? don't use magic, and don't take time to gloat beforehand, okay? Kill First, Party Later." "Absolutely." He extended his hand to shake hers, and then froze in realization of what he'd just done. "Ahhh, don't worry about that," Amy said hastily (if truth be told, she'd rather eat dirt than shake his hand.) It's the Muggle thing, I know. S'Okay." He relaxed. "You are *so* understanding. I don't know why I never tried this before." And he pulled the door open and stepped into the reception area. Amy almost had the door closed when he shoved his skull-like face back into her office. "Anything I should tell Snape before his visit?" he asked cheerily. *Well, since he asked * "Make sure he brings the Redi-Whip and cherries. And silk boxers. If they're Slytherin green, I'll let him keep them on longer." The would-be Evil Overlord shook his head sadly. "You Muggle females I will *never* understand you." And he turned and left, `boys' in tow, muttering "Kill First, Party Later. Kill First, Party Later ." After a few breathless moments Amy peeked out of her office door, and, seeing the coast was clear, she grabbed her purse, locked up the reception area, and headed for the nearest furniture store. *Something nice and cushy and wide not green, the wrong shade might clash with the boxers red's out, that's Gryffindor, definite turn-off Black. Definitely black.* Amy theatresm2002 Notes: No Psychoanalysts were harmed during the writing of this story, although a few concepts were mangled. Belated thanks to Grey and Melody for letting me play (without permission) with their ideas. And apologies to anyone who's already expounded on the "Evil Overlord" idea; I'm too lazy to check the archive. *(Bad Amy! Bad, bad, bad!)* From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 10:36:26 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:36:26 -0000 Subject: Baslisk connections/Hair/Heirs and other stuff - was: Key info in CoS In-Reply-To: <3DD58DF9.9020006@kingwoodcable.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46669 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Katze wrote: > I'm a firm believer that Harry can speak parseltongue naturally. He was just > over a year old and not able to talk clearly to being with when Lily and James > were killed. So it's really only sepculation that Harry got the talent to speak > parseltongue from Voldemort. Yes, it was Dumbledore's speculation - after all, no wizard that wasn't bad had ever before been known as parseltongue. However, Voldemort *did* lose most of his powers with that failed curse that gave Harry the scar. Those powers just *had* to go someplace, I guess. Also-- Voldemort insisted on having Harry's blood. Dumbledore's gleam of triumph: He had been right about Lily dying for Harry. That Harry got Voldemort's powers was *also* proven to Dumbledore then (that's why it had to be Harry's blood). And that Voldemort was now a *human*, no longer an immortal spirit. > If there is a Slytherin connection, I think James might actually be the > connection to Slytherin instead of Lily. Harry has Lily's eyes, but he has > James' hair. Dumbledore says that Harry has certain traits that Slytherin (or > was of Voldemort?) prized above others, but if you look at some of the traits - > resourcefulness, certain disregard for the rules - who doesn't fit those? Who doesn't fit those, is *Neville Longbottom* with his absent mind; standing up to his friends in the attempt of preventing them from breaking the rules. In this regard, Neville is most extremely NOT Slytherin. Absent mind doesn't suit Ravenclaw - and he says 'I should have been in Hufflepuff' - as he figures himself as no-good-in- anything, thus showing an attitude that most certainly doesn't fit in Hufflepuff. Neville's *another* true Gryffindor - constantly polite, nice and humble thus showing chivalry; showing bravery by facing his worst fear regularly. Neville just couldn't possibly *be* anything else, despite his lack of confidence or disability to succeed in his spells. Uncle Algie tried to *scare* him into doing magic without success - maybe Neville simply wasn't scared enough? Also, transfiguring ears into cactuses (which Neville does by accident) is advanced magic so 'nearly a squip' hardly suits Neville. He may have done that because he didn't want to harm innocent little animals... without being even aware of it, thus showing being a Gryffindor - not in the way of glorious heroics, but rather that of silent, humble and kind suffering, much like Remus Lupin. That's Neville's way of bravery, just as his stepping onto that trap-stair every single time so that no one else does... > We know so little about Lily and even less that James - there may end up being > no connection to any of the houses at all. Though I still find it interesting > that they lived in Godric's hollow, and not Salzar's cavern. Perhaps Harry is Godric Gryffindor's descendant, as were his father and grandfather. A Muggle-Potter married a Witch-Gryffindor some time past, I guess. She inherited the Godric Hollow, which then became traditional home of Potters, as well as the vault filled with gold. It might be that there's a Secret Passage leading from Hogwarts to Godric Hollow (one of those that seem to be collided. What would keep a wizard from shrinking the pile of stones, going past, turn and enlarge it again). There would be a door requiring a password that Fred&George never figured out, but if it was James' home, he surely would have known. That was, perhaps, where Lily was told to run into with Harry... The secret passage to *Hogwarts*- what other place would have been safe from Voldemort? I'm sure Sirius knows all about that - and every other corridor *seemingly* collapsed. Anyway, we only have Fred&George's word about the *collapsed* corridors... > > I think you all might find this interesting... > > My husband and I did some research today on the Basilisk and found a very > interesting link that got me thinking. > > This particular article, http://www.pantheon.org/articles/b/basilisk.html, says: > "The mythical king of the serpents. The basilisk, or cockatrice, is a creature > that is born from a spherical, yolkless egg, laid during the days of Sirius (the > Dog Star) by a seven-year-old rooster and hatched by a toad." > > Further in the article we read: > "The weasel is immune to its glance and if it gets bitten it withdraws from the > fight to eat some rue, the only plant that does not wither, and returns with > renewed strength." > > The connections I see are: > Basilisk > Sirius > a toad (perhaps a Longbottom connection) > and a weasel (perhaps a Weasley connection) > > I'm beginning to wonder if the Basilisk/Sirius connection might support the > 'Sirius being a Slytherin' theory. > > Along with J0del, I also wonder who's toad was used to hatch the egg. Who's > Roster was used to lay the egg in the first place? > > How do the Weasley's fit into this? > > I also have to ask - how does a Rooster lay an egg, and can you get a toad to > sit still atop an egg long enough for it to hatch? Well, let's see-- In my country, an Easter tradition says that rooster lays Easter Eggs (no one ever bothered to explain it further than 'it's magic'). Another, even older tradition mentions knowing a harm-causer's birth being essential in healing the harm - the harm- causer will give up when the wizard/witch threaten's to call upon it's *parents* to deal with it. That'd confirm with rooster's voice killing the basilisk... The Toad to hatch it... well, Neville has shown us how you get a toad to stay still: you put a hat on it! On the day of Sirius- Ancient Egyptians used Sirius the Star to create their calendar. The weasel-immunity... well, Ginny was there when the Chamber was opened. She was rather *central* to it, wasn't she? She *must* have seen the basilisk's eyes at some point, but oddly enough, didn't die or petrify because of it; Tom Riddle used *her* - why would L Malfoy choose a weasley to carry the book? Ginny's life was threatened by Memory of Tom Riddle, but never by the basilisk. Perhaps every Weasley is indeed immune to Basilisk's gaze... Or perhaps Ginny will turn out to be a weasel-animagus, having done it for ages without even knowing it herself... -- Finwitch From gandharvika at hotmail.com Sat Nov 16 12:20:48 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 12:20:48 +0000 Subject: (FILK) I Like Being Slytherin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46670 Ellen, Our Resident Beekeeeper Wrote: > Filksters note, and a Challenge!: >Now, this song begs for a variation- One for Severus! I throw down >the Gauntlet, and Challenge someone to reprise this for Severus >Snape! Draco would also probably have his own version of this >anthem, and Voldies version probably starts out "It's so easy being >Mean!"- If anyone feels inspired, feel free to extend this filk with >my blessings! Momentarily setting aside her Beatle filks, Gail B. reaches out and picks up the gauntlet: **************************************************** I Like Being Slytherin: (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _It's Not Easy Being Green_) Draco: I like being Slytherin It's the House that I knew I wanted to be in When I think of the other Houses like Gryffindor or Hufflepuff - I can't imagine being in any stupid house like that I like being Slytherin We always stand out from all the other students here Everyone of us, pure blooded wizards We are most superior Being shrewd, we use any means to achieve our ends Slytherin's the House of Salazar And Slytherin had turned out the most dark wizards And Slytherin is the place for the ambitious We're cunning like the serpent With a proud history I'm glad to be Slytherin There are other Houses at Hogwarts But why bother, why bother? I'm Slytherin, and that's just fine It's excellent! And I know that's just where I ought to be. -Gail B...gosh, I dig a good challenge. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From pat_mahony at hotmail.com Sat Nov 16 13:26:28 2002 From: pat_mahony at hotmail.com (The Real Makarni) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 13:26:28 -0000 Subject: Interpretation of "elves" In-Reply-To: <105.1fcec7db.2b073432@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46671 > You grew up on Tolkein elves. Which are a fairly recent literary inovation > (around WWII, although he might not have been the first person to apply the > term "elf" to that particular style of being.) Actually, Dobby and Winky are > elves very much in the English folklore tradition. What Tolkein called > "elves" would have been refered to as the Sidhe. Tolkien's elves are not a fairly recent literary creation- Tolkien based much of his world on Norse and Germanic legends, including the elves. There are two main streams of elves- the Norse elves (or Tolkien elves, if you will), who are noble, human-like and wise, and then the house-spirit elves which Jodel explained very well, and I would just like to point out the story of the Elves and the Shoemaker as another possible foundation for JKR's house elves (BTW, these elves are specifically *house* elves- does this mean there are other types of elves?). JKR has simply chosen to base her elves on a different mythology than Tolkien and other writers. Roo, who, after reading the new Fantastic Posts section and realising that Lily's sexiness has *never* been discussed, would like to make it known that he thinks that Lily is BY FAR the sexiest woman in the Potter series. From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Nov 16 12:46:36 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 06:46:36 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: (FILK) I Like Being Slytherin References: Message-ID: <3DD63E2C.547A7944@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46672 Gail Bohacek wrote: > > (snip) > I like being Slytherin > We always stand out from all the other students here > Everyone of us, pure blooded wizards > We are most superior > Being shrewd, we use any means to achieve our ends > > (snip) Not all were/are purebloods. Riddle had a muggle for a father. ;) Draco is an inbred little ferret though, but I bet there's some twist in the plot in the future where his father gets abusive towards him and he rebels by getting a muggle girlfriend or something. Right now he seems to want to 'please his father', but in cases like these, it doesn't take a lot to push a kid over to the other side. I suspect his mother pampers him, with all the sweets she sends and such, but his father likely treats him like a house elf when he is at home. Makes for a really messed up kid and when the kid is intelligent, its far worse. Jazmyn From talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 13:36:55 2002 From: talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com (Darla) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 13:36:55 -0000 Subject: Mrs Figg's broken leg... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46673 Hello all, I was having a flip through PS and something struck me as odd, and I thought perhaps someone could offer some suggestions about it. >From the four books it's pretty clear that Mrs Figg has a connection to the WW and is in all probablity a witch herself, and perhaps lives near the Dursleys in order to keep an eye on Harry. But in PS we're told Harry can't stay with her during Dudley's birthday because she's broken her leg. Couldn't that be easily fixed? I mean, broken bones can be fixed 'in an instance', and wouldn't Mrs Figg know someone who could mend it for her, even if she couldn't do so herself? Was it deliberate so that Harry could go to the Zoo with Dudley, perhaps as a test to see if he *was* a Parseltongue? Maybe Dumblebore suspected that he would be? If so, doesn't that have some BIG implications? Darla. From gandharvika at hotmail.com Sat Nov 16 14:48:19 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:48:19 +0000 Subject: (FILK)I Like Being Slytherin-I Stand Corrected Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46674 I Wrote My Filk: >(snip) > > I like being Slytherin > > We always stand out from all the other students here > > Everyone of us, pure blooded wizards > > We are most superior > > Being shrewd, we use any means to achieve our ends > > > > >(snip) Jazmyn Corrected: >Not all were/are purebloods. Riddle had a muggle for a father. ;) Ooooo, good point...missed that one. Now I need to go back and change the lyrics :)> Thanks -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From heidit at netbox.com Sat Nov 16 14:56:44 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:56:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:(FILK)I Like Being Slytherin-I Stand Corrected Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46675 I don't think you need to. We have no idea whether Draco knows that any halfbloods have ever been in Slytherin, and as the filk is from his perspective I think a change would be detrimental to the whole issue of what Draco knows. It's sort of similar to some recent posts that I've seen here which say Narcissa sends sweets to her son. We have no canon evidence for this - we know he gets parcels of sweets from home, but it's a jump in reasoning to say they come from Narcissa. -----Original Message----- From: "Gail Bohacek" Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:48:19 To:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:(FILK)I Like Being Slytherin-I Stand Corrected Real-To: "Gail Bohacek" I Wrote My Filk: >(snip) > > I like being Slytherin > > We always stand out from all the other students here > > Everyone of us, pure blooded wizards > > We are most superior > > Being shrewd, we use any means to achieve our ends > > > > >(snip) Jazmyn Corrected: >Not all were/are purebloods. Riddle had a muggle for a father. ;) Ooooo, good point...missed that one. Now I need to go back and change the lyrics :)> Thanks -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From SaalsG at cni-usa.com Sat Nov 16 16:36:30 2002 From: SaalsG at cni-usa.com (Grace) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:36:30 -0600 Subject: Scabbers References: Message-ID: <01a901c28d8e$51f0c040$0b4053d1@SaalsD> No: HPFGUIDX 46676 bboy_mn comments: First I have to assume that Perigrew knew who Arthur Weasley was. He may not have been a close friend, but he knew who Arther was and about his family. So, my first point, who is likely to take in a stray but friendly RAT as a pet; Lucius/Draco 'I'm so rich it hurts' Malfoy or Arthur/Percy/Ron 'boy, I've got a lot of kids and not much money' Weasley? There is a very high likelihood that a family like the Weasleys who are generally kind to start with, would take in a stray animal as a pet. Also, the Weasleys live in the country where it is nice and quiet and safe; far from the prying eyes of the wizard world. While Peter may have been aware that the Weasleys had a son about Harry's age, I think that was a bonus. Primarily, Weasleys were a place where he was LIKELY to be taken in as well as being a very private. While I can't say it isn't true, I very much doubt that this was a grand conspiracy on Peter's part to mold Ron into an evil underling with the eventual hope of doing whatever(?) to Harry. Now me: I've always thought that Pettigrew was very clever. He knows how to protect himself and while he fears for his life, he still doesn't mind getting himself hurt or sacrificing pieces of himself to save his butt. He goes to great lengths of discomfort to stay alive. Living as a rat for 12 years, traveling all that distance to seek out LV. He's not stupid. Its no coincidence that he ended up with the Weasleys. There isn't a better choice for him, really. Arthur Weasly comes home from work and talks about what went on at work that day. Although he's talking to Molly, the children are in the habit of listening to Arthur's adventures - and there's Scabbers sitting in Percy's pocket, later in Ron's pocket. Since the Daily Prophet only gives the reporter's limited version (probably incorrect at times), catching the inside news directly from Arthur is a bonus. He then gets to hear the plans for dealing with situations. I would not be surprised if he traveled about their house and eavesdropped on Arthur & Molly's private conversations. Who would notice a rat in a dark corner of the room - or even think that this particular rat was listening? Being Percy's pet was a good choice. Percy was so interested in getting a job in the MoM, I'm sure he would have asked Arthur all kinds of questions on how the MoM went about doing things and what the follow-up was. All the while, there's Scabbers sitting in Percy's pocket. When Harry goes to Hogwarts, Scabbers gets handed down to Ron. What a stroke of luck for Scabbers. Perhaps that first dream that Harry has when a voice tells him he was sorted into the wrong house was actually Scabbers once again on Harry's pillow, whispering to him while he slept. If Harry was not surprised to find Scabbers on his pillow, I'll bet that Neville wasn't surprised either to find Scabbers on his pillow as well... What better place than at Hogwarts to keep an ear open to the conversations that went on in the teachers' lounge? Or to crawl through the school as only a rat can and show up somewhere in Dumbledore's office? Whose to say that Scabbers didn't transfigure himself back into human form during the night to avoid Mrs. Norris while he prowled about. Grace From daniel.brent at cwctv.net Sat Nov 16 16:29:15 2002 From: daniel.brent at cwctv.net (evenflow200214) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 16:29:15 -0000 Subject: The Riddle House Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46677 In Chapter 1 (GoF) it mentions that a wealthy man owns the Riddle house for "tax reasons" Is there more to this than what most seem to think? Could someone that we've been introduced to have it? This leads us to who... It can't be Voldemort as he would have had trouble paying the upkeep as he'd been out of body for thirteen years... Wormtail could not leave his Animagus form so it would have been suspicious if his name had appeared on it... And Dumbledore knows of the Riddle House. It can't be Dumbledore or it would have been very neglectful of him to let Voldemort back in, it couldn't be one of the Death Eaters as they were trying to convince the WW that they had repented, rather than drawing attention to themselves by purchasing a large manor where the Riddles lived... So who owned it and why would they have wanted to keep Frank on? Could it have been Crouch maybe? Daniel From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 17:33:53 2002 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 17:33:53 -0000 Subject: Mrs Figg's broken leg... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46678 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Darla" wrote: > From the four books it's pretty clear that Mrs Figg has a connection > to the WW and is in all probablity a witch herself, and perhaps lives > near the Dursleys in order to keep an eye on Harry. But in PS we're > told Harry can't stay with her during Dudley's birthday because she's > broken her leg. Couldn't that be easily fixed? I mean, broken bones > can be fixed 'in an instance', and wouldn't Mrs Figg know someone who > could mend it for her, even if she couldn't do so herself? > Was it deliberate so that Harry could go to the Zoo with Dudley, > perhaps as a test to see if he *was* a Parseltongue? Maybe Dumblebore > suspected that he would be? If so, doesn't that have some BIG > implications? > Darla. It could have been a deliberate test, but it would have a lot of variables involved. My reading of the incident was always (since GoF that is) that she hadn't really broken her leg but had been called away from Privet drive for something really important - some kind of "old crowd" task perhaps. It must have been really important to make her leave Harry. So, when Petunia asked her to baby-sit Harry she had to come up with an excuse, and "broken leg" was the first thing that popped into her head. After that, she'd have to walk around in a cast for a while so no one would be suspicious. No matter what her motivation, she'd probably have done better to say "I have to go visit my aunt" or something like that, and not have to walk around in a cast. -Ing From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sat Nov 16 17:50:18 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 18:50:18 +0100 (CET) Subject: Sharing blood (Re: Key points in CoS) In-Reply-To: <20021115233902.18330.qmail@web10401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021116175018.55699.qmail@web21503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46679 The debate concerning hair, eyes, sharing blood is very interesting, and I think those who initiated it pointed something that could turn into a key narrative element. But I?ve got to start from the beginning. Last summer, I worked on an analyse of Rowling?s books as a modern version of classic tragedy, in the antique Greek way. My analysing line was that Harry was living so many painful experiences because, as a tragic hero, he had to pay for a fault his ancestors had committed many time before he was born, and that weighed on him like a malediction. The entire story would have been based upon how Harry would break or not the malediction and redeem his ancestors. The problem was that I had no idea of what kind of an original fault could have initiated the malediction. This questioning about hair's colour, eye's colour, bloodlines, heirs, etc, maybe gave me an answer. There it is. When I worked on Harry being a modern version of Greek tragic hero, I was thinking in Oedipus. It?s easy to make a comparison, there are some similitude between them. They both were brought up ignoring who they were really, they both had to face a sphinx; it?s also possible that Harry, the same as Oedipus, was the subject of an oracle before he was born (cf Professor Trelawney puzzling first prediction). Well, in Oedipus?s case, heir of the Royal House of Thebes, the malediction came from several faults his ancestors committed: Cadmos had killed a giant serpent that was a ?son? of Ares (an ancestor for the Basilisk?), Europa, Semele, Jocasta had had adulterine or incestuous relationships, his own father had tried to kill him. After what the poor guy killed his father and married his mother, as everybody knows. Okay, I won?t start an analyse of this last aspect of the story from the perspective of the Potter books, though it is very interesting (see Isabelle Smadja?s essay on the topic). What I would like to debate is the possibility of adulterine or incestuous relationship in Harry?s bloodline. That would explain why hair and eyes are so important in the description of the most important characters of the story. Vinnia wrote that green could be Slytherin?s colour because Salazar Slytherin had green eyes. In that case, it could mean that Gryffindor?s colour is red because of Godric Gryffindor?s hair. What about jet-black? Well, if you look at Hufflepuff ?s shield, you can see a black badger on it. Now, what do we know about Helga Hufflepuff? In GoF, the Sorting Hat called her ?Sweet Hufflepuff?. Does it mean she was a handsome young lady when the Hogwarts Four founded the school? Would it be wrong to say that in that case, there was not only an ideological, but also a love rivalry between Godric and Salazar? That Helga married Godric, and gave him a child? That Salazar, using an artifice of his own (why not Polyjuice, after all, it could be one of his inventions if we consider that on of its ingredients is snake skin), took Godric aspect in order to make love with Helga, just as Zeus did with Alcmena (she was queen of Thebes, so a relative to Oedipus), or just like Uther Pendragon did with Igraine? That Helga gave birth to an illegitimate child? Two bloodlines, a legitimate one and an illegitimate one. That?s the motor of many stories, of many villain-who-wants-to-kill-the heir-in ?order-to-take-the-power (cf The Prisoner of Zenda, with Black Michael trying to kill Red Rudolph). That would explain the similitude between many of the main characters of Harry Potter :Harry , Tom, Severus and Sirius sharing the same jet-black hair; young Dumbledore, Lily and the Weasleys sharing the same red hair. (By this way, it would fit better if Salazar?s hair were black, and if the colour of his shield were green because he chose it as respects to green-eyed Helga.) The WW is a small world. Ron says in CoS that wizards had to marry muggles to survive, and that many wizarding families have muggle blood. Is it wrong to think that before they stated marrying muggkes, wizards used to marry wizards, the same way noble families did in Europe? In that case, they would be all relatives. That would also mean that Harry shares the two bloodlines, and that he is at the same time the heir of Gryffindor and the heir of Slytherin. But of course, that?s just a theory. Any thoughts about this? Iris --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sydpad at yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 17:36:52 2002 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 17:36:52 -0000 Subject: Mrs Figg's broken leg... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46680 Darla wrote: >[mrs. figg] told Harry can't stay with her during Dudley's birthday because she's > broken her leg. Couldn't that be easily fixed? I mean, broken bones > can be fixed 'in an instance', and wouldn't Mrs Figg know someone who > could mend it for her, even if she couldn't do so herself? > Was it deliberate so that Harry could go to the Zoo with Dudley, > perhaps as a test to see if he *was* a Parseltongue? Maybe Dumblebore > suspected that he would be? If so, doesn't that have some BIG > implications? A simpler explanation would be that the broken leg was magical injury, which don't seem so easy to fix. Mad Eye Moody was covered with scars and had lost a leg-- presumably curse scars (like Harry's, come to think of it) are designed not to be magically healed. I like to think she broke her leg kicking some particularily hard Death-Eater butt... -- Sydney, squirming with anticipation of meeting a real live 'old crowd' female! From alina at distantplace.net Sat Nov 16 19:56:29 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:56:29 -0500 Subject: about the chamber of secrets Message-ID: <001301c28daa$41c6cea0$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46681 Something occured to me as I was watching the movie earlier today. Just came back from it actually. I remember a thread a while ago that discussed how did an ancient chamber of secrets get an entrance in a modern bathroom. I was wondering, do you think it's possible the chamber's entrance is not an actual structure, but a place? And whatever is built on that place magically adapts to be an entrance. Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 31/10/2002 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Nov 16 20:41:34 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:41:34 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?That=92s_Just_Neville_(filk)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46682 That's Just Neville (to the tune of He's a Rebel by the Crystals) Hear the original at: http://www.buffnet.net/~ambrosia/page16.htm Dedicated to Frankie THE SCENE: The Longbottom Estate. The LONGBOTTOM family react with joy to GREAT-UNCLE ALGIE's discovery of Neville's hitherto hidden magical abilities. UNCLE ALGIE See the way he bounced down the road Now I can go buy him a toad For he has come out ahead A wizard he, instead Of Special Ed GRAN LONGBOTTOM You once pushed him off of a pier Not a trace of magic appeared LONGBOTTOM FAMILY Wizard powers, he had none Could not do things we've always done And because of that we'd say: ALL That's just Neville and he'll never ever be any good That's just Neville and he'll never ever be Ollie Wood UNCLE ALGIE But just because he doesn't do what everybody else does That's no reason why I can't give him a good shove Though he isn't a bright boy, now he fills his Gran with joy ALGIE & GRAN Don't give up Neville, no no no Don't give up Neville, no no no, no way (During the Instrumental bridge, an owl flies in bearing Neville's letter of acceptance to Hogwarts) GRAN Neville's really on a roll, this letter says that he's enrolled We'll be going right to King's Cross, it's foretold LONGBOTTOM FAMILY He's our Neville and he'll maybe even be pretty fair He's our Neville even if his little head's filled with air And maybe he'll with Trevor learn what everybody recalls Just in case we'll send him a Rememberall He will study magically, maybe even earn a "C" Don't give up Neville, no no no Don't give up Neville, no no no. no way (ALGIE & GRAN) & LONGBOTTOM FAMILY (Don't give up Neville), no no no (Don't give up Neville), no no no (Don't give up Neville), no no no (Don't give up Neville), no no no .. - CMC (feeling that it's about time that Uncle Algie sings a few lines) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From chynarose8 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 16 20:59:55 2002 From: chynarose8 at hotmail.com (Michelle Stauss) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:59:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs Figg's broken leg... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001401c28db3$1d74a000$6601a8c0@Navi> No: HPFGUIDX 46683 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Darla" wrote: > From the four books it's pretty clear that Mrs Figg has a connection > to the WW and is in all probablity a witch herself, and perhaps lives > near the Dursleys in order to keep an eye on Harry. But in PS we're > told Harry can't stay with her during Dudley's birthday because she's > broken her leg. Couldn't that be easily fixed? I mean, broken bones > can be fixed 'in an instance', and wouldn't Mrs Figg know someone who > could mend it for her, even if she couldn't do so herself? > Was it deliberate so that Harry could go to the Zoo with Dudley, > perhaps as a test to see if he *was* a Parseltongue? Maybe Dumblebore > suspected that he would be? If so, doesn't that have some BIG > implications? > Darla. I don't think it was deliberately done. My take is that she really *did* break her leg, and someone saw it happen. The presence of a second party at the event added to the ^realness^ of it. After all, if no-one saw it happen and there is no physical evidence of it happening, then it is possible that it never happened in the first place. But since there were witnesses who were not part of the WW (otherwise they wouldn't say anything to anyone else about Mrs. Figg's little accident), Mrs. Figg couldn't just heal and pretend that nothing had happened. Not if she didn't want to spook Petunia/blow her cover. -- Chyna Rose [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sat Nov 16 21:07:08 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 21:07:08 -0000 Subject: The Riddle House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46684 Daniel wrote: > In Chapter 1 (GoF) it mentions that a wealthy man owns the Riddle > house for "tax reasons" Is there more to this than what most seem to > think? Could someone that we've been introduced to have it? This > leads us to who... It can't be Voldemort as he would have had trouble > paying the upkeep as he'd been out of body for thirteen years... > Wormtail could not leave his Animagus form so it would have been > suspicious if his name had appeared on it... And Dumbledore knows of > the Riddle House. It can't be Dumbledore or it would have been very > neglectful of him to let Voldemort back in, it couldn't be one of the > Death Eaters as they were trying to convince the WW that they had > repented, rather than drawing attention to themselves by purchasing a > large manor where the Riddles lived... So who owned it and why would > they have wanted to keep Frank on? Could it have been Crouch maybe? > > Daniel Don't be so quick to dismiss Dumbledore or the DE! Although it is entirely possible that the house is indeed owned by some rich muggle for taxation purposes, JKR tends to "keep things within the family" so to speak, so it's not impossible to think that the house is owned by someone we've already met. I myself tend to think that the person is Dumbledore, but other have voted for Lucius Malfoy. Let me elaborate my own version. The basic detail that made me think of Dumbledore in the first place was Frank. What sort of person would allow that old man to continue working there, when we know that his advaced age doesn't make hima good gardener anymore? Obviously not Lucius, or any other DE, with their dismisiveness of muggles. We need a kind heart that knows that, without that job, Frank won't have an income. Thus, Dumbledore. But, why, if he owns the house, doesn't he know what goes on in it? (I can imagine that some oldies of the list already see my answer coming, but anyway). The answer, of course, is that, according to MAGIC DISHWASHER, Dumbledore DOES know what's going on. He wants the resurrection to happen, and he wants Voldemort to have easy access to the bone of his father. Which is why he buys the house, but ignores it completely, never even visiting it. Thus, when Voldemort comes, he does not suspect that Dumbledore is one step ahead. After all, Voldemort could hide anyplace, but by making sure that that particular place is empty, Dumbledore helps Voldemort decide using the potion, since two out of three ingredients are close to hand. If he had had to hide in Crouch's or in Lucius', because the Riddle house had been inhabited, he might have decided against using the potion, which would ruin Dumbledore's plan. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Nov 16 22:19:40 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 16:19:40 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:(FILK)I Like Being Slytherin-I Stand Corrected References: <200211161600.gAGG0PW6031331@grond.furrystuff.com> Message-ID: <3DD6C47C.F28D73D0@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46685 Heidi Tandy wrote: > > I don't think you need to. We have no idea whether Draco knows that > any halfbloods have ever been in Slytherin, and as the filk is from > his perspective I think a change would be detrimental to the whole > issue of what Draco knows. > > It's sort of similar to some recent posts that I've seen here which > say Narcissa sends sweets to her son. We have no canon evidence for > this - we know he gets parcels of sweets from home, but it's a jump in > reasoning to say they come from Narcissa. > Somehow I can't see his father sending sweets to anyone, not even his wife. Unless of course they were poisoned and being sent to an enemy. Unless he has some aunt/grandma who lives at home who 'spoils him'. I mean, who would send them from home? Jazmyn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 23:50:41 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 23:50:41 -0000 Subject: Sharing blood (Re: Key points in CoS) In-Reply-To: <20021116175018.55699.qmail@web21503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46686 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Iris FT wrote: > > > > > > > > The debate concerning hair, eyes, sharing blood is very interesting, and I think those who initiated it pointed something that could turn into a key narrative element. > > But I've got to start from the beginning. > > This questioning about hair's colour, eye's colour, bloodlines, heirs, etc, maybe gave me an answer. There it is. > > ...edited... > > What I would like to debate is the possibility of adulterine or incestuous relationship in Harry's bloodline. That would explain why hair and eyes are so important in the description of the most important characters of the story. > > Vinnia wrote that green could be Slytherin's colour because Salazar Slytherin had green eyes. > > In that case, it could mean that Gryffindor's colour is red because of Godric Gryffindor's hair. > > ...edited... > > What about jet-black? Well, if you look at Hufflepuff `s shield, you can see a black badger on it. Now, what do we know about Helga Hufflepuff? In GoF, the Sorting Hat called her "Sweet Hufflepuff". Does it mean she was a handsome young lady when the Hogwarts Four founded the school? Would it be wrong to say that in that case, there was not only an ideological, but also a love rivalry between Godric and Salazar? ... ... ...That Helga gave birth to an illegitimate child? > > Two bloodlines, a legitimate one and an illegitimate one. ... ... ... > > That would explain the similitude between many of the main characters of Harry Potter :Harry , Tom, Severus and Sirius sharing the same jet-black hair; young Dumbledore, Lily and the Weasleys sharing the same red hair. ... ... ... > > The WW is a small world. Ron says in CoS that wizards had to marry muggles to survive, and that many wizarding families have muggle blood. Is it wrong to think that before they stated marrying muggkes, wizards used to marry wizards, the same way noble families did in Europe? In that case, they would be all relatives. > > That would also mean that Harry shares the two bloodlines, and that he is at the same time the heir of Gryffindor and the heir of Slytherin. > > But of course, that's just a theory. Any thoughts about this? > > > > Iris bboy_mn Unless I misunderstood you, wouldn't that give Harry the bloodline of THREE of the founders of Hogwarts; Gryffindor, Slytherin, and Hufflepuff? Too bad there isn't a way to integrate Ravenclaw into this theory, that would give him the bloodlines of all four founders. Something like the daughter of Ravenclaw marrying the son of Gryffindor/Hufflepuff and their daughter marries the son of Slytherin. just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Nov 17 00:25:09 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 00:25:09 -0000 Subject: Lucius and the Diary In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021115180840.02fef658@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46687 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: ...Major Edit... > > Anne also wrote: > > > ...edite... And as he was brilliant, ambitious, and the creator > > of the diary himself, I don't think Real!Riddle would ever doubt > > that he would have the ability to control Diary!Riddle should > >they ever meet. > CAROL Replied: > I agree. I'm sure it was also a failsafe type thing. If something > happened to him later, he could come back through his memory. This > is part of why I think Lucius knew exactly what the diary was for > and how it worked. I keep thinking that Lucius was helping > Voldemort come back into power. I don't think that he was trying to > power for himself. He had to know what was in that diary, which > means he wouldn't try to take power by using an old version of > Voldemort. Maybe part of the reason that he chose this year to do > this is that the Ministry chose this year to do raids and he was > afraid of being caught with too many things he shouldn't have before > he had a chance to use them. This, of course, begs the question of > why he hadn't done it before. He had 12 years. Why wait all that > time? BBoy_mn adds: First, I think Riddle didn't foresee that diary bringing him back to life during his lifetime. He hoped that eventually someone somewhere would figure out how it worked and unknowingly sacrifice themselve to give him new life. It's possible this could happen over and over again for as long as the diary existed. This could have been Voldemort's first attempt at some form of immortality. In a sense, as long as he could find people willing to write into the diary, he could keep stealing their life to give himself life. Later when he fully became Lord Voldemort he had grander and more immediate plans for immortaltity. I think sometime during the QuirrelMort phase or perhaps immediately after, Big_V sent word to Lucius say that in the event that the Philosopher's Stone attempt failed he should deploy the diary. Personally, I think after the failed to get the stone, he was pretty depressed and didn't feel like he could ever truly come back as himself. So on the way back to Albania, resigned to living eternity as vapor, he decided to start all over at age 16 and give himself a second chance. And what better way to bring himself back to life than to do so by stealing the life of Harry Potter. His doom becomes the source of his rebirth. He stopped at Lucius M's and explain the dairy and told him to plant it on Harry Potter. Now, a brief look at Dobby's part in this. For Dobby to have overheard anything about this plot, Lucius had to talk to someone about it. Who did he talk to? Did he sit around talking to himself? Is he in the habit of discussing detailed plans of treachery with Dobby? Draco? His Wife? I don't think so. But if Dobby had been there wher VaporMort appreared and talked to Lucius, that would have surely scare the hell out of Dobby. So, Dobby overheard, and maybe saw, Lucius and VaporMort talking. Ponder, frets and worries about it, then makes the bold decision to go against his master and warn Harry Potter. Circumstances, prevented Lucius from giving the diary directly to Harry, so he gave it to Ginny instead. But Dobby is still away that Harry is in danger. He know Lucius and this spiritual force of evil are plotting against Harry, and Dobby still wants to protect him. Even without the threat of Riddle using Harry's life to regain his own. Dobby knows that once Riddle regains his physical self and finds out about Harry, he's going to immediately come after Harry. So regardless of who has the diary, Harry is in great danger as long as he stays at Hogwards. Certainly in danger even away from Hogwarts, but in great and immediate danger if he remains there. Voldemort, resign to vapor for eternity, decides to start over. He visits Lucius and starts his backup plan with the diary. The two are overheard and maybe seen by Dobby, who can't allow the heroic Harry Potter to die. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sun Nov 17 00:52:36 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 00:52:36 -0000 Subject: (FILK)I Like Being Slytherin-I Stand Corrected In-Reply-To: <3DD6C47C.F28D73D0@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46688 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jazmyn wrote: > > > > > Somehow I can't see his father sending sweets to anyone, not even his > wife. Unless of course they were poisoned and being sent to an enemy. > Unless he has some aunt/grandma who lives at home who 'spoils him'. I > mean, who would send them from home? > > Jazmyn Surely the Malfoys had more than one house elf? Sending sweets to a foul young blot like Draco sounds very much like a house elf kind of thing. - CMC From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Nov 17 02:55:13 2002 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 21:55:13 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] about the chamber of secrets Message-ID: <1ab.c1720c6.2b085f11@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46689 In a message dated 11/16/02 2:56:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, alina at distantplace.net writes: > Something occured to me as I was watching the movie earlier today. Just came > back from it actually. > > I remember a thread a while ago that discussed how did an ancient chamber > of secrets get an entrance in a modern bathroom. I was wondering, do you > think it's possible the chamber's entrance is not an actual structure, but > a place? And whatever is built on that place magically adapts to be an > entrance. > > Alina of Distant Place > http://www.distantplace.net/ I'm a little confused as to what you mean ... could you explain it further? While *I* was watching the movie, I couldn't help but wonder (I really hope that this fits in as canon!) how they brought Nearly Headless Nick back to his original state. He's a ghost and in CoS, at the Deathday Party, it was made fairly clear that ghosts cannot eat. How did they give him the potion if he cannot eat or drink? Are we told? Does anyone care? *shrugs* I do. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ (Who is also wondering what Salazar Slytherin was doing in a girl's bathroom.) Oh! Thought. Maybe it *wasn't* originally a girl's bathroom! Maybe that's the place Harry's been! As I was watching the movie, I kept thinking "Why was Salazar in the girl's bathroom? How could he get to the Chamber of Secrets without running into students?" So maybe it only appears to be a bathroom......or maybe I'm crazy! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmmears at comcast.net Sun Nov 17 02:55:33 2002 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 02:55:33 -0000 Subject: (FILK)I Like Being Slytherin-I Stand Corrected In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46690 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jazmyn wrote: > > > > > > > > > Somehow I can't see his father sending sweets to anyone, not even > his > > wife. Unless of course they were poisoned and being sent to an > enemy. > > Unless he has some aunt/grandma who lives at home who 'spoils > him'. I > > mean, who would send them from home? Then Caius replied: > Surely the Malfoys had more than one house elf? Sending sweets to a > foul young blot like Draco sounds very much like a house elf kind of > thing. > It's possible that it could be a house elf, although there's absolutely no canon evidence indicating that the Malfoys have more than one house elf (pre or post Dobby). I doubt that most house elves, would care to take it upon themselves to send Draco sweets at school against his parents wishes, given that the consequences would probably be dire. Also, wouldn't a house elf have to be quite fond of Draco, to want to send him things behind their masters' backs? Somehow, I doubt that Draco would inspire that sort of affection from a servant. However, we *do* have canon support for Draco's mother being fond of him. "...Father actually considered sending me to Durmstrang rather than Hogwarts, you know. He knows the Headmaster, you see. But Mother didn't like the idea of me going to school so far away." GoF, p147, UK hardback. I personally believe that Draco is quite spoiled by his parents (somewhat like Dudley), and that it's most likely that his mother is the one sending the care packages (or directing that they be sent). It's also possible that Draco's lying about his mother being the reason he's not at Durmstrang, but again, nothing in canon gives us any reason (so far) to doubt that he's telling the truth here. Jo Serenadust From Audra1976 at aol.com Sun Nov 17 03:01:44 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 22:01:44 EST Subject: FILK - What I Like About You, and speaking of FILK challenges... Message-ID: <2d.26ac8009.2b086098@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46691 First, a short filk for our favorite Hogwarts couples that I made up in the car on my way home--it doesn't go exactly to the music, but it's just for fun. Keep reading for a filk challenge I was thinking about. Dedicated to coriolan_cmc To the tune of "What I Like About You" by The Romantics Cho: Hey, uh-huh What I like about you, you're the man of my dreams, And we play the same position on our Houses' Quidditch teams. Cedric: Racing for the snitch, I felt a bond. Picture you each time I polish my wand, yes I do. That's what I like about you. Pansy: What don't I like about you? You really got it all, With your blonde hair, silver eyes, and aristocratic drawl. Draco: What can I say? Our tastes agree. We have so much in common--we both love ME, yes it's true. That's what I like about you Viktor: Vat I am liking about you, Her-mi-nin-o-nin-ny, Your eyebrows don't meet in the middle like the girls from my country. Hermione: Please stop talking, Viktor, my dear, You're not the brightest bulb, but you've got a nice rear, yes you do. That's what I like about you. ******************************** Second, I was thinking it would be challenging, but possible, to do a filk to the tune of Billy Joel's "We Didn't Start the Fire" with a verse for each book so far. I don't think I'm quite up to it, but maybe a couple of you more experienced filk writers. Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Sun Nov 17 03:04:27 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 22:04:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] about the chamber of secrets/explanations for Oryomai References: <1ab.c1720c6.2b085f11@aol.com> Message-ID: <001401c28de6$0b1f7280$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46692 > I'm a little confused as to what you mean ... could you explain it further? yep > While *I* was watching the movie, I couldn't help but wonder (I really hope > that this fits in as canon!) how they brought Nearly Headless Nick back to > his original state. He's a ghost and in CoS, at the Deathday Party, it was > made fairly clear that ghosts cannot eat. How did they give him the potion > if he cannot eat or drink? Are we told? Does anyone care? *shrugs* I do. > > ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ > (Who is also wondering what Salazar Slytherin was doing in a girl's > bathroom.) > > Oh! Thought. Maybe it *wasn't* originally a girl's bathroom! Maybe that's > the place Harry's been! As I was watching the movie, I kept thinking "Why > was Salazar in the girl's bathroom? How could he get to the Chamber of > Secrets without running into students?" So maybe it only appears to be a > bathroom......or maybe I'm crazy! That's what I'm talking about! I'm sure that when Slytherin built the CoS it wasn't a bathroom. But when the castle was modernized and a bathroom was built there, the entrance just adapted to the new structure. The catacombs underneath are surely the original, 1000-year old ones, but the actual snake-on-a-sink entrance is probably a magical enchantment that adapts any structure on top of the catacombs tunnel into an entrance. Is it clear now? Alina. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 31/10/2002 From shnorse at wat.midco.net Sun Nov 17 03:17:14 2002 From: shnorse at wat.midco.net (Sarah Watertiger) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 21:17:14 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] about the chamber of secrets/explanations for Oryomai References: <1ab.c1720c6.2b085f11@aol.com> <001401c28de6$0b1f7280$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <017101c28de7$d54dc240$9e59dc18@midco.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46693 Alina writes how did Nearly Headless Nick return to life since ghosts can't eat. A Potion could pass through or be given externally by a spell who's to say. As for that if people were petrified it would be not pratical to swallow the potion but absorb the cure in another manner. Sarah Lady Watertiger shnorse at wat.midco.net From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sun Nov 17 00:56:25 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 18:56:25 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:(FILK)I Like Being Slytherin-I Stand Corrected References: Message-ID: <3DD6E939.508B5403@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46694 Caius Marcius wrote: > > > Surely the Malfoys had more than one house elf? Sending sweets to a > foul young blot like Draco sounds very much like a house elf kind of > thing. And.. Malfoy secretly pays his house elves so they have money to get him all his favorite treats, plus gives them time off for shopping for them? ;) Jazmyn From alina at distantplace.net Sun Nov 17 04:49:06 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 23:49:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] about the chamber of secrets/explanations for Oryomai References: <1ab.c1720c6.2b085f11@aol.com> <001401c28de6$0b1f7280$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <017101c28de7$d54dc240$9e59dc18@midco.net> Message-ID: <004a01c28df4$a9b5dd40$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46695 Didn't write that. Oryomai did. Alina. > Alina writes how did Nearly Headless Nick return to life since ghosts can't > eat. > > Sarah Lady Watertiger > > shnorse at wat.midco.net --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 31/10/2002 From elfundeb at comcast.net Sun Nov 17 05:52:08 2002 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 00:52:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Riddle House References: Message-ID: <005401c28dfd$774ef220$3a3b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46696 Grey Wolf wrote, regarding the Riddle house: Although it is entirely possible that the house is indeed owned by some rich muggle for taxation purposes, JKR tends to "keep things within the family" so to speak, so it's not impossible to think that the house is owned by someone we've already met. I myself tend to think that the person is Dumbledore, but other have voted for Lucius Malfoy. I vote for Lucius Malfoy for several reasons. First, canon states that the present owner of the Riddle house is wealthy. We know Lucius is wealthy. That doesn't discount Dumbledore, because IIRC his finances have not been discussed. Second, we learned in CoS that Lucius is in possession of many of Voldemort's things, and that he tried to get rid of quite a few of them. Third is the fact that upon his return from Albania with Pettigrew, Voldemort seems to have gone to the Riddle house immediately. He tells Pettigrew that he was tired by the journey, and that he intended to stay a week, because he could not implement his plan before the QWC. This suggests to me that while Voldemort was still in Albania, away from all information sources, he knew or expected that it was unoccupied and safe to inhabit, and he is not likely to have been confident in that assumption (because Pettigrew in his travels with the Weasleys wouldn't likely have heard about this) unless he knew who the owner of the house was and that it was likely to be vacant. Therefore, I believe Lucius acquired the Riddle house, perhaps during Voldemort's last reign of terror, and held it in his own name (or perhaps an assumed name) on Voldemort's behalf, and most likely at Voldemort's request. The basic detail that made me think of Dumbledore in the first place was Frank. What sort of person would allow that old man to continue working there, when we know that his advaced age doesn't make hima good gardener anymore? Obviously not Lucius, or any other DE, with their dismisiveness of muggles. We need a kind heart that knows that, without that job, Frank won't have an income. Thus, Dumbledore. I can think of lots of good reasons to retain Frank Bryce as caretaker other than charity. Frank Bryce is the perfect caretaker for an owner who does not want questions to be asked. Even before the Riddles' deaths, Frank kept to himself, because the war had left him with a stiff leg and a dislike for crowds and loud noises. Therefore, he was very unlikely to hang out in The Hanged Man speculating about the landlord. Besides, the best way not to attract attention is not to make changes in the current state of affairs. The firing of Frank Bryce would create endless conversation in The Hanged Man. The retention of the caretaker seems carefully designed to deter nosybodies from poking around the Riddle house -- we learn that only village boys (who are really harmless) ever approached the house. It would be a prudent expenditure for Lucius. Debbie whose ears always perk up when "tax reasons" are mentioned [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Sun Nov 17 06:11:43 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 06:11:43 -0000 Subject: Sharing blood (Re: Key points in CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46697 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Iris FT wrote: > > What I would like to debate is the possibility of adulterine or > incestuous relationship in Harry's bloodline. That would explain why > hair and eyes are so important in the description of the most > important characters of the story. .... > > Two bloodlines, a legitimate one and an illegitimate one. ... ... ... (me) I personally find this idea really intriguing because of the depth that it adds to the idea of founders and heirs. I agree with you that the Magical bloodlines must have been somewhat incestuous at some point to mirror the aristocratic blood lines of Europe throughout history. There's also the fact that there are only so many wizarding families, and only so much contact between wizards and muggles. > bboy_mn > > Unless I misunderstood you, wouldn't that give Harry the bloodline of > THREE of the founders of Hogwarts; Gryffindor, Slytherin, and Hufflepuff? > > Too bad there isn't a way to integrate Ravenclaw into this theory, > that would give him the bloodlines of all four founders. Something > like the daughter of Ravenclaw marrying the son of > Gryffindor/Hufflepuff and their daughter marries the son of Slytherin. > > just a thought. > > bboy_mn Ah ha, while we may not have the background for it, a thought popped into my mind while reading over this idea. 'Hmm," said a small voice in his ear. "Difficult. Very difficult. Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind, either. There's talent, oh my goodness yes - and a thirst to prove yourself, now that's interesting ... So where shall I put you?'...'Not Slytherin, eh?' said the samll voice. 'Are you sure? You could be great, you know, it's all here in your head, and Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness, no doubt about that - no? Well, if you're sure - better be GRYFFINDOR!' (PS, paperback, pg 90-91) The famous Sorting Hat quote. Now, obviously, as we all know, the sorting hat had a hard time placing Harry. Many assume that this is because Harry brought up the 'Not Slytherin' bit that I cut from the above quote. However, as you may note by seeing what the sorting hat says apart from that, it was having a hard time placing Harry before Harry ever brought up Slytherin. 'Plenty of courage' - Obviously a Gryffindor attribute. 'Not a bad mind, either' - Here we're seeing the Ravenclaw attributes. 'There's talent, oh my goodness yes' - Any of the houses, but keep this in mind as a key ingredient for 'greatness' 'A thirst to prove yourself' - I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that this is an attribute of Hufflepuff. I know that many think that it is Slytherin, but Slytherin's are known for ambition, which is usually motivated by personal, internal goals. When someone wants to prove themselves, however, it tends to be that they want to prove themselves to others. Hufflepuffs are known for being hard workers. Quite often those who work the hardest are the ones who want to prove themselves the most. They may not have the ambition to move to be the president of the company, but they are going to work as hard as they can to prove that they are the best layworker out there that you can find. At this point, Harry interupts the hat with his thoughts about Slytherin. I think that it is at this point that the hat refines it's earlier musings about talent into the comment of 'you could be great, you know'. In the end, Harry makes his choice, and we see the theme of choice over fate come out again. So the point of this discussion? As much as the thoughts of Harry being the ultimate heir brings up visions of poorly written fan fiction, there could actually be canon support for it, other then the physical features aspect. Back to those, however. I like Godric having red hair. Especially since I've always been a fan of the 'connect the red heads' theory(Lily, Dumbledore, the Weasley's...) I can see Salazer Slytherin having green eyes. As there has been alot of talk about magic ability within eyes, remember the fact that from what we've seen, evil magic has a green light. While I've always imagined Helga to be blond, and Rowena to be 'raven' haired, I suppose it is possible that Helga has black hair. Maybe both of them did, and that's why so many people in the magical community have black hair. However, as fun as all this musing is, I feel I have to bring up one thing. These four were the founders of Hogwarts, but not the founders of magic within Britain. Salazer Slytherin was not the first evil wizard to exist, and Godric certainly was not the first hero. Perhaps, if people listened to Professor Binn's lessons more often, we'd discover that there is actually a richer history that predates Hogwarts that JKR has yet to tap into. ~Risti From twisterx at bellsouth.net Sun Nov 17 06:56:21 2002 From: twisterx at bellsouth.net (twister10_2000) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 06:56:21 -0000 Subject: Yule Ball Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46698 I've searched through 6 pages of search results hoping to find the answer to my question, so I really do hope it hasn't been brought up too many times. My question stems from an arguement my sister and I had. She was re- reading the chapter on the Yule Ball, and made a comment about the Yule-ball-to be in Year 5. At this point, I made some form of a rude comment about her intelligence and stated that the Yule Ball only happens in years in which the TriWizard Tournament takes place. At which point she made a rude comment about my intelligence and I ended up here, feeling quite unsure about my intelligence/interpretation of the books. Here were our arguements: For- -The Ball is only for Hogwarts students years 4 and up (without a date, of course), so perhaps this a rite of passage akin to Hogsmeades trips, and hence the reason it's never been mentioned before). This was my sister's major point. -Everyone seems to know exactly what it is. If there's only one every time there's a tournament, and the last time prior to GoF was over a hundred years ago, how would they know? (My response to this: It's a Yule Ball, not quite that hard to figure out, now is it?) Against- -The tournament is to take place every four years (the rules prior to the cancellation and reinstatement of the tournament) if all goes according to plan. Thus, it's make sense as to why only 4th years and up are allowed without a date. Take the third year class for example: Had Ginny not been taken by Neveille then she would have been able to participate in the ball in her seventh year when the next tournament & ball would take place. This also makes it easy for Rowling, since Harry was a 4th year, she'd never have to right another tournament/ball again. -There has been no mention of it in prior books around this time. Surely, we'd hear jokes about Percy & Penelope from the Weasley twins, or Harry's envy as a third year when Cho goes to the ball with someone. (My sister's counter: We never heard about the Hogsmeade's trips either, and surely our young sleuths would wonder why half the common room is empty on certain days or why there are signs posted for trips every month or so.) -Winter Holidays. The Yule ball is, in essence, a winter/Christmas celebration (unless my understanding of 'Yule' is horribly misconstrued), yet all we ever hear about during this time is the Christmas feast. Surely, if there were so few people that stayed in the castle normally during the winter holidays, the chances of Harry and co. hearing about it would be greater. Also, wouldn't the number of people who stay at school for the break be much higher? Seems awfully wasteful to have such a huge ball for so few people. -I remember hearing/reading that the Yule Ball was a celebration specifically of/for the tournament. Thanks, Jess From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sun Nov 17 09:41:12 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 10:41:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sharing blood (Re: Key points in CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021117094112.48284.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46699 Steve wrote: Unless I misunderstood you, wouldn't that give Harry the bloodline of THREE of the founders of Hogwarts; Gryffindor, Slytherin, and Hufflepuff? Too bad there isn't a way to integrate Ravenclaw into this theory, that would give him the bloodlines of all four founders. Something like the daughter of Ravenclaw marrying the son of Gryffindor/Hufflepuff and their daughter marries the son of Slytherin. just a thought. bboy_mn Iris again: I didn't integrate in my post Rowena Ravenclaw because of the first Sorting Hat's song in which it is said that she was "old" (well, she was a whitch, but as an old woman, would she have been able to give birth to a child?). But you are true, it would be interesting if Harry were the heir of the four bloodline. Let's see... Godric and Helga on one hand, Salazar and Rowena on the other. If we keep on mind that Rowena was old yet when they founded Hogwarts, if Salazar was her husband, that could mean they both were senior wizards. In that case, they could have had children before founding the school. One of them could be an adult yet, and integrate the adulterine relationship theory... Well, well, it's just theory, I'm not going to write a fanfic. Furthermore, there are so many possible combinations between those "ancestors" that it would be too long. However, it would fit with reading the HP series as a modern version of Greek tragedy. Greek heroes and gods share most of the time the same blood. Greek mythology is a vast catalogue of adulterine and incestuous relationships. This can be said also about Egyptian mythology. In both case we are talking about myths. And who can denie that Harry Potter is a myth? Iris ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sun Nov 17 10:10:05 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:10:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sharing blood (Re: Key points in CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021117101005.68579.qmail@web21509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46700 Risti wrote: "So the point of this discussion? As much as the thoughts of Harry being the ultimate heir brings up visions of poorly written fan fiction, there could actually be canon support for it, other then the physical features aspect." "However, as fun as all this musing is, I feel I have to bring up one thing. These four were the founders of Hogwarts, but not the founders of magic within Britain. Salazer Slytherin was not the first evil wizard to exist, and Godric certainly was not the first hero. Perhaps, if people listened to Professor Binn's lessons more often, we'd discover that there is actually a richer history that predates Hogwarts that JKR has yet to tap into." Of course it's not a fanfic draft. But if it were, you would be allowed to say that the inner story of the royal european houses is poorly written fanfic. Look at the family tree of the king of Spain and you'll see that he can pretend to be the heir of most of the thrones in Europe. Think in all the wars that begun in European history because of bloodline and legitimacy matters. It could be the same thing in the WW. Concerning Slytherin and the other founders, it's obvious they were not the first wizards of the History of Magic. But they could be an equivalent of the great Greek gods (Zeus, Hera, Ares, etc...). Those gods were not the first ones in Greek mythology; before them were the Titans and principles like the Sky, the Hearth, etc... The matter is that Zeus and Co decided to deal with the human kind, generating Houses and heroes, and opening the door for tragedies like Oedipus'story. I didn't mean that the Founders were the origin of the WW. I only thought they could be the very origin of all the matters and pains Harry had to face. In that case, our young man would be a tragic hero, and nobody could denie the importance of JKR's books from a literary point of view. Iris ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Audra1976 at aol.com Sun Nov 17 10:15:09 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 05:15:09 EST Subject: Sharing blood (Re: Key points in CoS) Message-ID: <14a.1786ba88.2b08c62d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46701 In a message dated 17/11/2002 01:12:18 Eastern Standard Time, kristin at jesusphreaks.org writes: > I like Godric having red hair. Especially since I've always been a > fan of the 'connect the red heads' theory(Lily, Dumbledore, the > Weasley's...) Hey, I recently drew a picture of Godric Gryffindor and I gave him red hair too. It really suited him, especially with his symbol being the lion--he has a firey mane. You can see my drawing at http://www.geocities.com/audrahammer/godric.jpg I sort of modeled him after a young Richard Harris, since if someone's related to Gryffindor, Dumbledore is just as likely as anybody else...or all the Weasleys for that matter. The sorting hat didn't have any trouble As far as Harry being the heir to all four founders, it's certainly possible. It was so long ago and the wizard community tending to keep to themselves more than not during most of that time, there's probably a few of wizards who can trace their bloodline back to one or more of the Hogwarts Founders. However, I don't see the bloodlines intermingling right away, like any of the Founders having children to together, or even any of their children marrying each other. I think the lines got crossed a few more generations down. First, the Founders didn't seem to get along that well. I think they joined together out of necessity because they were the 4 strongest wizards of their time and they were the best hope for the school's success. We know they disagreed fundamentally on the students, and they separated each into their own corner of the castle. Second, we don't know how old the Founders were when Hogwarts was built, but one or all could have been married with families of their own to begin with. Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Nov 17 11:36:29 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:36:29 -0000 Subject: about the chamber of secrets In-Reply-To: <1ab.c1720c6.2b085f11@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46702 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > In a message dated 11/16/02 2:56:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, > alina at d... writes: > > Something occured to me as I was watching the movie earlier today. > > Just came back from it actually. > > > > I remember a thread a while ago that discussed how did an ancient > > chamber of secrets get an entrance in a modern bathroom. I was > > wondering, do you think it's possible the chamber's entrance is > > not an actual structure, but a place? And whatever is built on > > that place magically adapts to be an entrance. > > > > Alina of Distant Place Oryomai: > how they brought Nearly Headless Nick back to his original state. > ... ... ... How did they give him the potion if he cannot eat or > drink? Are we told? Does anyone care? *shrugs* I do. > > ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ > (Who is also wondering what Salazar Slytherin was doing in a girl's > bathroom.) > bboy_mn addds: First I did a pretty bad job of editing the previous posts, sorry about that. Point 1: The bathroom I agree, there is no way one room would have the same use for over a thousand years. So, I suspect, as you do, that the enchanted entrance adapts to the room built above it. So, if it were a classroom, you would find something in the room with a small snake symbol on it, that would tell you where the entrance to the chamber was. Point 2: Medicine to ghosts. Pure speculation, you fill a tea kettle with potion and water, bring it to a boil, and waft the steam through the ghost. Hey, it could happen. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From tmarends at yahoo.com Sun Nov 17 12:08:22 2002 From: tmarends at yahoo.com (Tim) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:08:22 -0000 Subject: Yule Ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46703 > > -I remember hearing/reading that the Yule Ball was a celebration > specifically of/for the tournament. > > > Thanks, > Jess I agree with you, Jess... The way I read it is the Yule Ball only happens during the Tournament... Although other balls during the school year for older students certainly can't be ruled out, based on what we learned from the first three years (mainly that hardly anyone stayed at Hogwarts during the Christmas break) the Yule Ball will more than likely not be seen again in the series. Tim From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sun Nov 17 14:27:27 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 06:27:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Yule Ball and other dances (or, Are You Tainted by Fanfic?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021117142727.6882.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46704 twister10_2000 wrote: My question stems from an arguement my sister and I had. She was re-reading the chapter on the Yule Ball, and made a comment about the Yule-ball-to be in Year 5. At this point, I made some form of a rude comment about her intelligence and stated that the Yule Ball only happens in years in which the TriWizard Tournament takes place. At which point she made a rude comment about my intelligence and I ended up here, feeling quite unsure about my intelligence/interpretation of the books. Me: Oh, dear! You should NOT feel intellectually inferior to your sister over this! (Although neither one of you should be making rude comments to each other. Gah. Sometimes I'm such a mom.) You are quite correct that the Yule Ball is particular to the tournament. The sheer surprise everyone experienced when finding out about the Ball clearly points to that, plus the other things you mentioned about very few people staying at the castle during the holidays in other years. Dances are clearly NOT a regular event at Hogwarts, however much fanfic writers would like there to be a Halloween dance/masquerade ball, a Valentine dance, an end-of-term dance in June, etc. In fact, I have to say that it seems your sister's view of canon may possibly have been tainted by reading too many fanfics where these sorts of non-canon school dances occur (plus a recurrence of the Yule Ball). People who know me may laugh at my saying that, as I've written two very long fics and am writing two others currently, but this is a case in which I can understand very well the aversion some people have to fanfic. (Many say they fear it will color their view of the books or they will begin to consider non-canonical things to be canon.) There are a slew of fics out there that create these sorts of social events for manipulating the romantic lives of the characters, when there is absolutely no evidence for them in canon. Now, it might be argued that JKR herself seems to have invented a dance for the purpose of manipulating the characters' romantic lives (Hermione/Viktor/Ron tension, Harry/Cho/Cedric tension, Harry/Ginny/Neville tension, Harry/Parvati and Ron/Padma awkwardness, the introduction of the Fred/Angelina relationship, Ron/Fleur angst, etc.) not to mention revealing Hagrid's "secret" (which Harry never knew was a secret) when he's speaking to Madame Maxime (oh, I forgot the Hagrid/Olympe angst in the above list). But inasmuch as she's the author, I think she sort of has permission to do this. While it could be that she will in fact introduce more social events of this sort in future books, especially as Harry and the other students in his year will be fifteen at the beginning of book five, there are still Hogsmeade visits to serve as "dates," and Percy and Penelope seemed to get on just fine when they were in school without the benefit of school dances. JKR could institute more dances, but I don't really see why she'd need to have annual events. One more at the most, perhaps in Harry's seventh year (celebrating the fall of Voldemort, perhaps), would probably suffice. It seems that describing these things would get repetitive and it would be difficult to justify them within the overall structure of Harry both getting an education and fighting evil. twister10_2000 wrote: -The tournament is to take place every four years (the rules prior to the cancellation and reinstatement of the tournament) if all goes according to plan. Me: Actually, in the book it says every five years. That would mean that even if it were reinstated, all of the students in Harry's year AND Ginny's year would be out of school before the next tournament. It's the Quidditch World Cup that's every four years. All of your other arguments against the Yule Ball being a regular event are perfectly logical, the most telling of which is the absence of most students during the holiday. While it is true that we don't hear of Hogsmeade visits until Harry is in third year, or of elective courses like Divination before he has to choose extra courses, the fact that it is noted in the first three books how few students stay at the castle for Christmas (and it is also specifically noted in GoF that an extraordinary number of students stayed for the holiday because of the ball) it seems unlikely that this would occur if they could attend a social event like the Yule Ball, and indeed, we see that, given the opportunity, few want to miss it. This is why, when I wanted a Social Event to Manipulate the Characters' Social Lives (TM), I invented a group called "Screaming Haggis" which played at a ceilidh in Hogsmeade on a weekend when the students happened to already be going there....So it is possible to read fanfic without having one's ideas about school dances corrupted and twisted.... --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Sun Nov 17 16:19:27 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:19:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Yule Ball References: Message-ID: <00ca01c28e55$1aa9dfa0$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46705 > My question stems from an arguement my sister and I had. She was re- > reading the chapter on the Yule Ball, and made a comment about the > Yule-ball-to be in Year 5. At this point, I made some form of a rude > comment about her intelligence and stated that the Yule Ball only > happens in years in which the TriWizard Tournament takes place. At > which point she made a rude comment about my intelligence and I ended > up here, feeling quite unsure about my intelligence/interpretation of > the books. > snip > Jess There's one point I don't see brought up neither in this email nor in the response. It could be that the Ball was instituting in order for Hogwarts students to socialize with foriegn students? I mean, yes, that would sort of make it connected to the TW Tournament, but not exactly. It could be that the ball is a random, one-time thing that Prof. Dumbledore or somebody else thought of in order to make the students from different countries to spend more time together. Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 31/10/2002 From anakinbester at excite.com Sun Nov 17 16:29:56 2002 From: anakinbester at excite.com (Katie) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:29:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Yule Ball and other dances (or, Are You Tainted by Fanfic?) Message-ID: <20021117162956.A82FE299E6@xmxpita.excite.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46706 --- On Sun 11/17, Barb < psychic_serpent at yahoo.com > wrote: Dances are clearly NOT a regular event at Hogwarts, however much fanfic writers would like there to be a Halloween dance/masquerade ball, a Valentine dance, an end-of-term dance in June, etc. In fact, I have to say that it seems your sister's view of canon may possibly have been tainted by reading too many fanfics where these sorts of non-canon school dances occur (plus a recurrence of the Yule Ball) My Reply: I'm curiouse if this very common (and in my opnion silly, as GoF seems perfectly celar to me that there aren't annual Yule Balls) mistake shouldn't be considered an Americanism? I see lots of complaints about common americanisms brought up, but I've never seen something mentioned about the frequency of dances. School dances are ridiculously common over here. We have a homecoming dance, and winter dance, the prom, the random dance that I don't remember dance, the one where the girl asks the guy dance (can't remeber what it's called) basically a whole slew of dances. In my middle school they had a monthly school dance thing 0.o I don't know for sure but from talking with some international students, it seems like schools abroad simply do not have the amount of dances that we do. (nor do they have the evil known as pep rallies, lucky people you) So if I see random dances, I always just consider it an Americanism. Probably some young kid is used to annual Winter Dances, and may not stop to think that this is wrong. Now I could be totally wrong, and Dances are common in Britian but the little voice in my head says no. Also with dances, I see some people actually write another Tri-Wizard tournment, thus justifying the dance, but,as said, everyone would be out of school by the time the next one came around. I also think it unlikely, considering Cedric's fate and the mess with Harry, that another one will be held anytime soon. Actually, I'm worried about relations all togther. I know that event was supposed to strengthen international relations, but it seems to have hurt them more. It was a good plan, but it back fired badly. Even though Voldemort did not kill Harry, I think he still did significant damage to Dumbeldore's chances of pulling allies together quickly. -Ani PS: Again sorry for spelling errors, there is no spell check on this computer at work >_< _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 17 19:09:38 2002 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:09:38 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] 382 BC (Ollivander's) In-Reply-To: <128.1b5186a8.2b076054@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021117130242.05266010@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46707 As the clock struck 03:48 AM 11/16/2002 -0500, eloiseherisson at aol.com took pen in hand and wrote: >But....I just wonder *where* the original Ollivander started making wands. If >the date is recorded, it is unlikely to be in pre-Roman, or >pre-Roman-discovered Britain. >In 382 BC, we're in the realms of British pre-history and before the Romans >even started expanding out of Italy. It's even before the Greek Pytheas wrote >his account (in about 320) of his voyage in which he quite possibly >circumnavigated Britain and which is probably the first direct encounter >between Britain and the Classical world. But perhaps the original Ollivander was a Roman wand maker (maybe just an apprentice). After the (nearly complete, saved only by sacred geese) sack of Rome in 382 B.C., he decides Rome is not for him and sets off for the Antipodes, which would then have been Britain. He founds his wand shop in what will one day become London (there is now evidence that there was a pre-existing settlement there when the Romans founded Londinium). Jim From yennywp at yahoo.com Sun Nov 17 07:26:16 2002 From: yennywp at yahoo.com (Yenny Gama) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 23:26:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sharing blood (Re: Key points in CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021117072616.76098.qmail@web10708.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46708 Risti: <> Hi everyone! I'm new here and I never posted anything before but this is interesting. Maybe it's a crazy idea but... We don't know almost anything about Lily. What if Lily was a Salazar Slytherin descendant and James was a Godric Gryffindor descendant. Consequently, Harry is half Gryffindor and half Slytherin! That's why Harry has characteristics and abilities from the two old wizards and the Sorting Hat has doubts about his house, that's why he is so important, because he is the heir of both. What do you think about this?? YennyWP From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sun Nov 17 20:15:51 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:15:51 EST Subject: 382 BC (Ollivander's) / Yule Ball and other dances Message-ID: <73.293b1084.2b0952f7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46709 Jim: > But perhaps the original Ollivander was a Roman wand maker (maybe just an > apprentice). After the (nearly complete, saved only by sacred geese) sack > of Rome in 382 B.C., he decides Rome is not for him and sets off for the > Antipodes, which would then have been Britain. He founds his wand shop in > what will one day become London (there is now evidence that there was a > pre-existing settlement there when the Romans founded Londinium). > Very good! As I said, not a Briton, then. I suppose if the descendents knew that their family had come over at the time of the Sack of Rome, then they could retrospectively have dated it to 382 BC. Well, it would have to have been dated retrospectively anyway, wouldn't it? I think it would have been a bit more than the equivalent of going to the Antipodes, though, given that the Romans didn't even know of Britain at the time. And one wonders *why* he might venture from Rome precisely through the Gaulish territories inhabited by the 'Celts' who had just sacked his home city. ............................... Ani, deprived of a spell-checker at work, comments on the Yule ball question: >I'm curiouse if this very common (and in my opnion silly, as GoF seems perfectly >celar to me that there aren't annual Yule Balls) mistake shouldn't be considered an >Americanism? >I see lots of complaints about common americanisms brought up, but I've never >seen something mentioned about the frequency of dances. >School dances are ridiculously common over here. We have a homecoming dance, >and winter dance, the prom, the random dance that I don't remember dance, the >one where the girl asks the guy dance (can't remeber what it's called) basically a >whole slew of dances. In my middle school they had a monthly school dance thing >0.o Ani, I think your'e quite right and I had been about to say the same thing myself. School dances are far from unknown here, but they're not the regular part of school life that they appear to be in the States according to the TV programmes that my children watch. I've noticed an increasing habit for schools to start holding what I hesitate to call 'Graduation' balls (as you should all know by now we *don't graduate from school*, only from university), but this is a terribly new and, dare I say it, American idea which has crept in very recently. That's not to say that there is no tradition of school dances, particularly, I think in the case of single sex private schools which have links with other (opposite!) single sex schools, but I've suddenly noticed pictures in the local press of state school leavers' balls more recently and have not really witnessed this in the past. It certainly didn't happen in my school, though, granted, that was a fair time ago. Eloise ~~~~~~~~~~~~ You think that just because it's already happened, the past is finished and unchangeable? Oh no, the past is cloaked in multi-coloured taffeta and every time we look at it we see a different hue. (Milan Kundera, Life is Elsewhere) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 17 20:37:57 2002 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:37:57 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 382 BC (Ollivander's) In-Reply-To: <73.293b1084.2b0952f7@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021117142354.04d9b810@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46710 As the clock struck 03:15 PM 11/17/2002 -0500, eloiseherisson at aol.com took pen in hand and wrote: >Very good! As I said, not a Briton, then. >I suppose if the descendents knew that their family had come over at the time >of the Sack of Rome, then they could retrospectively have dated it to 382 BC. >Well, it would have to have been dated retrospectively anyway, wouldn't it? > >I think it would have been a bit more than the equivalent of going to the >Antipodes, though, given that the Romans didn't even know of Britain at the >time. And one wonders *why* he might venture from Rome precisely through the >Gaulish territories inhabited by the 'Celts' who had just sacked his home >city. I think it is difficult to claim that the Ollivanders are not British, just because they immigrated in 382 BC. That probably makes them about 1448 years older as a British family than the Malfoys, who appear to be of Norman lineage (thus, probably emigrated from France/Normandy in 1066). But, yes, my suggestion does make the founder of Ollivanders in London a a Roman immigrant. As to the retrospective dating, I presume you mean that, when he founded the shop, the date 382 BC would have been nonsense. Quite right. When he opened the shop, he probably wrote something to the effect of "Fine Wands Since 371 A.U.C." 371 ab urbe condita would be the Roman dating equivalent of 382 BC (or close to it). Eventually, they would have changed the sign. Why did he go West? Welll, maybe he was a pioneer....maybe he wanted to make his fortune in new, unknown lands. By moving West, he was moving in front of, not into, the Gauls who were attacking Rome. Those Rome-Sackers were not coming from present day France, but farther East. They are believed to have invaded Italy, at least partly, because they were being forced West by other tribal movements. As for Britain being the antipodes, it was, at least, known to exist. Romans and earlier peoples imported tin from Cornwall. Britain had been written about not long before 382 BC in the Periplus of Pythias. Jim From sugarkadi at aol.com Sun Nov 17 20:20:40 2002 From: sugarkadi at aol.com (sugarkadi at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:20:40 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco's Grades Message-ID: <12c.1b70940a.2b095418@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46711 My roommate and I have been debating something. She thinks that Draco is second in his year, grade-wise. In Chamber, Lucious says "Though if his grades don't pick up...I would've thought you'd be ashamed that a girl of no wizard family beat you in every exam"(p. 52). I don't see this as proof that Draco's second, but I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this? Draco just doesn't strike me as the type to put great amounts of effort into his schoolwork, but I'm not saying he's a bad student, so Draco fans don't hex me! ~Katey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com Sun Nov 17 20:57:41 2002 From: loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com (Loony Loopy) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:57:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Yule Ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021117205741.70233.qmail@web13113.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46712 Is the Yule Ball an annual event or is it only held in conjunction with the Triwizard Tournament? In GoF, Chapter 22, Prof. McGonagall states "The Yule Ball is approaching -- a traditional part of the Triwizard Tournament and an opportunity for us to socialize with our foreign guests." Back in Chapter 10, Mrs. Weasley is packing Ron's dress robes. She also went to Hogwarts (see GoF Chapter 31), and assuming she went for all seven years and that the Yule Ball was an annual event in her time, she would explain to Ron why she's packing the dress robes. She doesn't tell Ron about the Yule Ball because it's a secret, just like the Triwizard Tournament. Loony Loopy __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From alina at distantplace.net Sun Nov 17 21:25:49 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:25:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco's Grades References: <12c.1b70940a.2b095418@aol.com> Message-ID: <002101c28e7f$e722bf00$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46713 > My roommate and I have been debating something. She thinks that Draco is > second in his year, grade-wise. In Chamber, Lucious says "Though if his > grades don't pick up...I would've thought you'd be ashamed that a girl of no > wizard family beat you in every exam"(p. 52). I don't see this as proof that > Draco's second, but I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this? > Draco just doesn't strike me as the type to put great amounts of effort into > his schoolwork, but I'm not saying he's a bad student, so Draco fans don't > hex me! > ~Katey We have some evidence of Draco's intelligence. Think of all the times that he got the "good guys" in trouble. It requires a working mind, a malicious one, but still. However, Draco seems very much a spoiled brat. He is favoured by Snape and knows it. He bought his way into the Quidditch Team. He probably gets good greats but nothing really good or special, not because he couldn't, but because he's doesn't seem like the kind to put actual effort into something when he can get it with his father's money and influence. Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 31/10/2002 From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Sun Nov 17 22:18:15 2002 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:18:15 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco's Grades References: <12c.1b70940a.2b095418@aol.com> Message-ID: <019901c28e87$41e2b1a0$01ca7ad5@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 46714 > > My roommate and I have been debating something. She thinks that Draco is > second in his year, grade-wise. In Chamber, Lucious says "Though if his > grades don't pick up...I would've thought you'd be ashamed that a girl of no > wizard family beat you in every exam"(p. 52). I don't see this as proof that > Draco's second, but I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this? I also understand this comment as saying "Draco is second". If half of Hogwarts was ahead of him, Lucius wouldn't speak about it in front of strangers. That's his evil way of boasting in front of Ollivander and putting Draco down for not being the first. :-) Irene From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sun Nov 17 22:37:36 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:37:36 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 382 BC (Ollivander's) Message-ID: <59.2495d161.2b097430@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46715 Jim: >By moving West, he was moving in >front of, not into, the Gauls who were attacking Rome. Just to nit-pick, I said 'through', not 'into'. I'm not clear how precise the Romans were over the exact of origins of the Gauls who were attacking them. (I'm confessing lack of knowledge, not being contentious.) > As for Britain being the antipodes, it was, at least, known to > exist. Romans and earlier peoples imported tin from Cornwall. Britain had > > been written about not long before 382 BC in the Periplus of Pythias. > > I think you'll find I mentioned Pytheas in my original post on this subject, although according to Cunliffe, he wrote c. 320 BC, about 60 years *after* the founding of Ollivander's and was born not more than a generation *after* the Sack of Rome. I really don't know enough about this, but as far as I am aware, the *Roman* writers who make the earliest mentions of Britain (often drawing on Greek sources) are much later than this. Please correct me if I am wrong. Yes, tin from Cornwall was imported into continental Europe (that, along with things like the distribution of British neolithic axes in Europe and continental ones in Britain was one of the reasons I said that there was definitely prehistoric contact with continental Europe). But I am personally unaware of evidence that in the 4th century the Romans *knew* that they were using tin from Cornwall. As you are obviously aware (although others may not be), there are big problems in defining exactly how exchange mechanisms worked in the prehistoric period. Are we talking about trade, or some other form of exchange? Direct exchange, or down-the-line exchange? The fact that, for instance, the inhabitants of Brittany were in contact with Britain and exchanged goods with them, which then in turn, by way of change or exchange, found their way deeper into continental Europe does not mean that the Romans themselves knew of the existence of this group of islands at that stage. Eloise ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You think that just because it's already happened, the past is finished and unhangeable? Oh no, the past is cloaked in multi-coloured taffeta and every time we look at it we see a different hue. (Milan Kundera, Life is Elsewhere) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sun Nov 17 22:55:45 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:55:45 EST Subject: Fantastic Posts: The Filk Message-ID: <1c3.1b800ce.2b097871@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46716 Elkins: > That's right. The essays and compilations of many of the fascinating > issues members have discussed on the main list will henceforth be > called "Fantastic Posts And Where To Find Them." That's "Fantastic > Posts" for short. Or "FPs" for even shorter. The Fantastic Posts > can be found at: > > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ Posts Fantastic Posts To the melody of 'Food, Glorious Food', from Lionel Bart's _Oliver!_ (To my colleagues on the FAQ team) Is it worth the waiting for? Will she ever publish more? Reading all the same old ca-non! Ev'ry day we say our prayer -- Trying to stave off despair; Still we read the same old ca-non! There's not a theme, not a line unexplored Can we analyse, query or quote, But there's nothing to stop us from getting a thrill When we all click on FPs and read Posts, Fantastic Posts! We know where to find 'em! Each updated FAQ boasts New theories and old gems! Hot links to the posts themselves! What next is the question. Read all of them for yourselves (Beware indigestion!) Posts, Fantastic posts! Book Banning and Mysteries. HPfGU? -- Read about the History. Just picture a huge library - you're not even close. Oh, Posts, Wonderful Posts, Marvellous Posts, Fantastic Posts. Posts, Fantastic Posts! FAQs about blokes handsome! Whoever's your choice -- still worth a king's ransom! Who is it we dream about? Who brings on a sigh? Read all about Severus Snape* -- What a guy! Posts, Fantastic Posts! Read right through the menu. Just take a short break, Stretch, refocus and then you Work up a new appetite You're never morose With Posts, Once again, Posts, Fabulous Posts, Fantastic Posts! Posts, Fantastic Posts! Whatever the subject: James, Lily or Ron -- You'll find that it's link-checked. Just think when they're all complete -- Our senses go reeling. That day when the FAQ team's cheers reach to - the - ceiling! Posts, Fantastic Posts! What wouldn't we give for That extra FAQ more - That's all that we live for. We're luckily fated to do nothing but boast About Posts, Magical Posts, Wonderful Posts, Marvellous Posts, Fabulous Posts, Beautiful Posts, Fantastic Posts! *Those unconvinced by Severus' personal charms may insert their own individual preference here! Eloise (Who doesn't want to think about how much cataloguing she could have done whilst writing the above!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From suzchiles at pobox.com Sun Nov 17 23:14:10 2002 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:14:10 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sharing blood (Re: Key points in CoS) In-Reply-To: <20021117072616.76098.qmail@web10708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46717 > Maybe it's a crazy idea but... We don't know almost anything > about Lily. What if Lily was a Salazar Slytherin descendant and > James was a Godric Gryffindor descendant. Consequently, Harry is > half Gryffindor and half Slytherin! I've always thought this. It would certainly explain the situation with the Sorting Hat. Suzanne From kkearney at students.miami.edu Mon Nov 18 00:38:23 2002 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 00:38:23 -0000 Subject: Draco's Grades In-Reply-To: <019901c28e87$41e2b1a0$01ca7ad5@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46718 Katey wrote: > My roommate and I have been debating something. She thinks that > Draco is > second in his year, grade-wise. In Chamber, Lucious says "Though > > if his > grades don't pick up...I would've thought you'd be ashamed that a > girl of > no > wizard family beat you in every exam"(p. 52). I don't see this as > proof > that > Draco's second, but I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on > this? And Irene replied: > I also understand this comment as saying "Draco is second". If half > of > Hogwarts was > ahead of him, Lucius wouldn't speak about it in front of strangers. > That's his evil way of boasting in front of Ollivander and putting > Draco > down for not being > the first. :-) Me now: I disagree. I think Lucius only mentioned Hermione because she was at the head of the class, and he doesn't feel a muggle-born witch should have this honor. He is appalled that his own son hasn't managed to do anything about this. It seemed to me that this criticism was an old one, about which Draco was clearly tired of hearing. -Corinth From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Mon Nov 18 00:47:16 2002 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 00:47:16 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco's Grades References: Message-ID: <037b01c28e9c$0bdd73a0$01ca7ad5@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 46719 Corinth wrote: > I disagree. I think Lucius only mentioned Hermione because she was at > the head of the class, and he doesn't feel a muggle-born witch should > have this honor. He is appalled that his own son hasn't managed to do > anything about this. It seemed to me that this criticism was an old > one, about which Draco was clearly tired of hearing. > I'm not a fan of Draco, so I don't care either way, but it just does not feel right for Lucius. Did he memorise the whole list? What's the point of berating Draco about letting "muggle-born" to top the class if there were other people ahead of Draco? I think he only knows Hermione's name because she's taking the place he thought was Draco's birth-right. Irene From heidit at netbox.com Mon Nov 18 01:36:07 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidi tandy) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:36:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco's Grades In-Reply-To: <037b01c28e9c$0bdd73a0$01ca7ad5@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <022c01c28ea2$ddd8e320$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 46720 > Corinth wrote: > I think Lucius only mentioned Hermione because > she was at > > the head of the class, and he doesn't feel a muggle-born > witch should > > have this honor. He is appalled that his own son hasn't > managed to do > > anything about this. It seemed to me that this criticism > was an old > > one, about which Draco was clearly tired of hearing. > > Irene wrote: > I'm not a fan of Draco, so I don't care either way, but it > just does not feel right for Lucius. Did he memorise the > whole list? What's the point of berating Draco about letting > "muggle-born" to top the class if there were other people > ahead of Draco? I think he only knows Hermione's name because > she's taking the place he thought was Draco's birth-right. I've actually thought that this complaint by Lucius indicates that Draco is towards the top of the class, but not necessarily second overall - in other words, if he'd been bested by a pureblood in Ravenclaw or two, I don't think Lucius would've complained like this over and over again. However, I've tried to think of other reasons why Draco would be obsessive in his irritation with Hermione - why does he act so cruelly to her at the Quidditch practise (of course, presuming that he knows just how insulting "Mudblood" is, which I'm not perfectly sure he does), and why he wishes her dead on Christmas day - why would she upset him so much if there wasn't some academic competition between them? I mean, what else could they possibly compete in that would make him more irritated with her than with, say, Dean Thomas? heidi From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Mon Nov 18 03:26:29 2002 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 03:26:29 -0000 Subject: Draco's Grades In-Reply-To: <022c01c28ea2$ddd8e320$0301a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46721 I may be wrong, but didn't Draco mention Hermione in the preceding sentence? Something to the effect of "I would be on top if it weren't for that teacher's pet Granger". It would be an odd comment if there were a lot of other people between them on the list. I always assumed from this that Draco was very near the top of the class. Obviously Lucius wasn't interested in such excuses. -Ing who can't check because her books are in Nova Scotia and she's in Toronto - *horrors* (for those for whom that has any meaning) From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 18 03:58:00 2002 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Meggers S.) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:58:00 -0500 Subject: Riddle's House Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46722 Ok, so I went and watched the movie that pales in comparison to the books. I know it was a sin, I hope you all can forgive me. Now before everyone runs away from my post, I do have a CANNON related question. It is, however, inspired by the movie. In the Chamber scenes, Riddle is wearing Ravenclaw colors. His tie is blue and his patch has an R on it. I know I not mistaken because I stared at it the entire time in disbelief. So, my question is, is there any cannon evidence that ever states what house Tom Riddle/Voldemort belonged too? And as a follow up question, could this tie into the fact that we have never been introduced to the Ravenclaw ghost? Just some new speculation to throw on the fire. Enjoy. Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From alina at distantplace.net Mon Nov 18 04:06:14 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 23:06:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Riddle's House References: Message-ID: <001501c28eb7$d71915e0$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46723 > So, my question is, is > there any cannon evidence that ever states what house Tom Riddle/Voldemort > belonged too? And as a follow up question, could this tie into the fact that > we have never been introduced to the Ravenclaw ghost? Just some new > speculation to throw on the fire. Enjoy. > > Megalynn In PS/SS Harry's told that Voldemort was a Slytherin by either Ron or Hagrid (I can't quite remember, but it's one of them) The R on his clothes in the movie must've been for Riddle, not Ravenclaw. Alina. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 31/10/2002 From siskiou at earthlink.net Mon Nov 18 04:20:06 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:20:06 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco's Grades In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19635688468.20021117202006@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46724 Hi, Sunday, November 17, 2002, 7:26:29 PM, ingachristsuperstar wrote: > I may be wrong, but didn't Draco mention Hermione in the > preceding sentence? Something to the effect of "I would be on > top if it weren't for that teacher's pet Granger". It would be an > odd comment if there were a lot of other people between them > on the list. Not quite. Draco says: It's not my fault, the teachers all have favorites, that Hermione Granger--- I'm not sure what I think Draco's grades are. His father makes it sound as if they are really bad, but maybe nothing but being first is good enough for him. Draco doesn't sound too scared of his dad here, but more like a little whiner, making excuses. And he mentions favorites, making it sound like more than "just" Hermione above him. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From catlady at wicca.net Mon Nov 18 05:19:46 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 05:19:46 -0000 Subject: Ollivander's est382BC/Riddle's name&colors/Rooster egg/Draco sweets/pedigree Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46725 OLLIVANDER Audra wrote: << Second, I don't remember ever reading anything about Ollivander making the first-ever wands, or that there was a "Before Wand-period." (snip) and Ollivander's is in Britain. So are we to assume that wands originated in Britain and spread to wizards all over the world? Or furthermore, did wizards themselves originate in Britain and spread to different parts of Europe and the world? I would think that magic folk would have also existed in Africa, for example, but did they use wands or any sort of tools to channel magic? And if not, were they not as powerful as British wizards who used wands? I'm not a history buff, so I don't know exactly what was going on in the world in 382 BC when an Ollivander supposedly started making wands. I wonder if there was any significance to that specific year? I was able to find a few sources that say that say (in the real world at least) that the Druids in Britain were the first to use wands, and they go back as early as 500 BC. This means that the original Ollivander was probably a Druid. >> According to me, just because the Ollivander family has been in the wand business since 382 BCE doesn't mean that the Ollivanders invented wands. I assume that wands were invented during the later Paleolithic, perhaps by the Cro-Magnons. One of the artifact types found in association with the art caves found in Europe (IIRC 50,000 to 30,000 years ago) are decoratively (and probably symbolically) carved bones which archaeologists call "batons". I think they could be ancient wands. I think wands were invented in Africa, original home of mankind, and wand technology was carried by early wizards to wherever they roamed with their Muggle tribes, but the wood or other material from which the oldest wands were made has disintegrated over the millennia. I have no trouble believing that the first Ollivander to go into the wand business was a Druid; after all, one of the Famous Wizard cards in Book 1 is Cliodna the Druidess (known to Muggles as the goddess Cliodna). However, I also think it is possible that the first Ollivander wand-maker started the business in Greece or Macedonia and a later Ollivander emigrated to Britain. I have no reason for this theory except the -ander suffix is the English form of Greek suffix -andros, as in Alexander and Meander. Btw the -andros suffix means "man" or "men" and "Alexander" means "he repels men", not in the sense that he has troubling scoring at gay baths, but in the sense that when he goes into battle, the enemies either die, faint from fear, or run away. Eloise wrote: << or the British wizarding community was in much closer contact with the wizarding communities of other, more civilised societies than the rest of the population. >> Why not? They also had castles and flush toilets much earlier than Muggles did. << But there IMHO, there's considerable doubt as to whether it would have been possible to assign a precise date to the setting up of a British wand-makers back in the pre-Roman Iron Age as Britain had no direct connection with a literate, calendar-using society which could have recorded this. >> Either Mr. Ollivander himself or the Ollivander family had magic enough to keep one business going continually for over two thousand years; surely they also had enough *magic* to record each passing year, with its weather, eclipses, deaths and births in the family, wars and plagues and famines in the Muggle community. Then they could count backwards assigned year numbers when the BC/AD calendar became widely popular. If we assert that they didn't have enough magic to invent writing by magic, we can assert that they did have enough magic to store audio records in some kind of artifact. RIDDLE'S NAME Phyllis wrote: << I wonder whether Riddle's name was familiar to Harry because Harry might have heard his parents talking about Riddle when he was a baby. The name could therefore be in his subconscious somewhere. >> I am certain (for no reason except my own omniscence) that Harry vaguely recognised the name "Tom Riddle" because familiarity with that name is one of the things that Voldemort left in Harry, along with Parselmouth, an extra intensification of his magic ability, and I always wonder if that is why Harry is a "natural" Seeker who knew how to fly a broom without one lesson. Harry would *hate* it if he found that his one talent he's proud of actually came from Voldemort. Megalynn wrote: << It is, however, inspired by the movie. In the Chamber scenes, Riddle is wearing Ravenclaw colors. His tie is blue and his patch has an R on it. I know I not mistaken because I stared at it the entire time in disbelief. >> In chat this afternoon, when I said that Riddle's tie had looked green and silver to me, but Grey Wolf said it looked grey and silver to him, Meg supplied the following URL of evidence: http://us.imdb.com/EGallery?source=ss&group=0295297&photo=HP2SP-2935.j pg&path=pgallery&path_key=Coulson,+Christian Katze asked: << I also have to ask - how does a Rooster lay an egg, and can you get a toad to sit still atop an egg long enough for it to hatch? >> Back in the days when I was in elementary school (in those days, a basilisk was different from and worse than a cockatrice), my text book said that Real Life roosters do occasionally lay infertile, undersized eggs. I sujppose it takes magic to make a toad nest a bird's egg. It's hard to remember so far back, but I *think* the cockatrice was hatched from a rooster's egg nested by the rooster, and was a snake or lizard with a rooster head that spat deadly venom at anyone who encountered it, and the basilisk was born from the cockatrice's egg nested by a toad and looked like a cockatrice except it had a toad's head with those deadly eyes on the other end than the rooster head. DRACO'S TREATS Jazmyn wrote: << And.. Malfoy secretly pays his house elves so they have money to get him all his favorite treats, plus gives them time off for shopping for them? ;) >> No, they cook the sweets in the well-equipped Malfoy Manor kitchen. Yenny Gama wrote: << What if Lily was a Salazar Slytherin descendant and James was a Godric Gryffindor descendant. >> I am convinced that Lily had pure Muggle ancestry. It would contradict JKR's moral about not judging people by their pedigree to make the Muggle-born great witches (Lily and Hermione) secretly wizard-bred. From rachelday at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Nov 17 23:46:02 2002 From: rachelday at blueyonder.co.uk (rachel day) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 23:46:02 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Yule Ball and other dances (or, Are You Tainted by Fanfic?) References: <20021117162956.A82FE299E6@xmxpita.excite.com> Message-ID: <004f01c28e93$7fa5bc60$011d1f3e@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 46726 Katie wrote: >>I don't know for sure but from talking with some international students, it seems like schools abroad simply do not have the amount of dances that we do. (nor do they have the evil known as pep rallies, lucky people you) << Hi! I can't speak for other schools, but the school I go to, and those in the surrounding area don't have regular dances. I always saw this as an Americanism. we used to have discos in Junior school (ages 7 - 11) at, IIRC, Christmas and at the end of the year. We also had a leaving disco for *just* our year in the summer before we went up to the Comprehensive school. The only exception I know of to the dance rule is a friend of a friend. He lives in Portsmouth (the other end of the country to me, and where she used to live) She told me that they were having a dance (I think she called it a prom, I cant remember) and that as school prefect he had to open it (that was how the conversation came up, she was talking about how he and his friends were hiring a limo). I've always kind of hoped (even though there is no canon to suggest this) that there is a room, besides the great hall, where all of the houses could mix (although Slytherin would probably not have participated). I think this line of thinking came about when we found out about Percy and Penelope's relationship. It would have been hard to keep that going if they could only see each other in the great hall at mealtimes and occasional Hogsmeade visits, even if they had some classes together. Rachel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Nov 18 02:28:50 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:28:50 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco's Grades References: <022c01c28ea2$ddd8e320$0301a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: <3DD85062.FEFF6C10@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46727 I think Lucius Malfoy is just using Hermione to 'push' his son into doing better in class, regardless wither he is second to her, down the list a ways.. or failing everything but potions. Its like Lucius is cutting his son down by saying that even a 'mudblood' is doing better in school then he is. Noone else above Draco matters in this 'slam' as its meant to say that Lucius thinks his son is such a loser that he can't even get good grades like Hermione and that comparing Draco to one of the people he despises so much, hinting that she's better then he is, would drive him to try harder. Sounds like Lucius just knows what buttons to push on his son to annoy him enough to try, as otherwise, Draco strikes me as lazy and might not give any effort at all if his father didn't manipulate him this way. There's no real sign that Draco is 'second' best in school, but more evidence that his father uses any tricks he can to get his son to try harder and be worthy of the Malfoy name. I mean we certainly don't see Malfoy in the library all the time or being a particularly outstanding student, unless maybe in potions if Snape favors him so much. Certainly he is no better then Harry as a student... Jazmyn From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Nov 18 03:14:16 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 21:14:16 -0600 Subject: Draco and Hermione References: <022c01c28ea2$ddd8e320$0301a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: <3DD85B08.825A1D1D@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46728 Am I the only one who noticed that after the Yule Ball, when Draco could find 'no insult' for how Hermione looked, that he seemed to mostly back off of teasing her and Pansy Parkinson started being more vicious towards her instead? Outside of the comment that Ron and Hermione were 'next to go' on the train at the end and calling Hermione 'clever' for catching Rita..in a snide, Draco sort of way, Draco seemed to have backed off on insults towards her.. and the 'next to go' thing was aimed more at making Harry mad then anyone else. Could Draco be maybe more effected by Hermione then he will ever admit? Don't you notice that sometimes two kids, male and female who fight when young, suddenly become close after they are 14-16 years old? Hmmmmmm... Do we see a possible turn-around in Draco in the future, between his father pushing him too hard, his cowardice, which might cause him to decide that being a death eater is more dangerous then he likes, Snape's favoritism, which might be more Snape trying to act as a father figure to Draco, knowing how Lucius is, then simply the fact he is in Slytherin... and the very fact that Draco is still at Hoggwart's at all and not packed off to study under Karkaroff? Hard to tell what's really going on here.. Maybe his mother is really not a death eater herself and knew Karkaroff would push her son in that direction and maybe that Dumbledore and Snape would not? We can't be sure about her as she was not among the death eaters that were called to Voldemort's side when he came back. Her 'looking like she smelled something bad' at the World Cup might have in fact been directed at her husband for all we know. Jazmyn From vincentjh at yahoo.com Mon Nov 18 05:09:14 2002 From: vincentjh at yahoo.com (vincentjh) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 05:09:14 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Norris Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46729 Hi all, I've been on the list for a while but I'm falling behind the discussion and don't know if this has been covered. So I'll just throw the questions out-- Why's Mrs. Norris petrified(sp.)? Why petrify a cat? Is she a threat to the plan? It's puzzled me since my first reading. And I still cannot find a suitable explanation for that. Any idea? VJH From alina at distantplace.net Mon Nov 18 06:53:29 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:53:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco and Hermione References: <022c01c28ea2$ddd8e320$0301a8c0@Frodo> <3DD85B08.825A1D1D@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <005801c28ecf$34b75600$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46730 > Am I the only one who noticed that after the Yule Ball, when Draco could > find 'no insult' for how Hermione looked, that he seemed to mostly back > off of teasing her and Pansy Parkinson started being more vicious > towards her instead? Outside of the comment that Ron and Hermione were > 'next to go' on the train at the end and calling Hermione 'clever' for > catching Rita..in a snide, Draco sort of way, Draco seemed to have > backed off on insults towards her.. and the 'next to go' thing was aimed > more at making Harry mad then anyone else. snip > Jazmyn Many a Draco/Hermione romantic fanfic was based on the fact that he could find no insult to fling at her during the Yule Ball. I'm guilty of such myself. Still, romantic as I can be sometimes, I think that in this case, it's simply the shock of seeing someone you're used to perceiving in a certain way suddenly appear completely different. Hermione's own friends didn't recognize her! I really don't think Draco could be affected by a "mudblood" in the way you describe outside of fanfiction. In his world, mudbloods just aren't datable and that's that. Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 01/11/2002 From twisterx at bellsouth.net Mon Nov 18 01:26:51 2002 From: twisterx at bellsouth.net (twister10_2000) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:26:51 -0000 Subject: Sharing blood (Re: Key points in CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46731 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Suzanne Chiles" wrote: > > > Maybe it's a crazy idea but... We don't know almost anything > > about Lily. What if Lily was a Salazar Slytherin descendant and > > James was a Godric Gryffindor descendant. Consequently, Harry is > > half Gryffindor and half Slytherin! Wouldn't that be a lovely irony, a chief descendant of Salazar is muggle born and her only son is the child who defeats Salazar's true heir. [...I've always assumed that some muggleborns may be the products of bloodlines where magic was thought to have 'died out', i.e. marriage between squibs & nonmagic folks (For whatever reason I think of 'magical abilities' as a sort of recessive trait, though many of the half & half students at Hogwarts defy that theory, unless of course their muggle parent carries the recessive magic gene.)] But if Harry was a descendant of Slytherin, wouldn't that have given him some control over the basilisk in CoS? As in, at least confusing the giant snake as who was really it's master, or who was giving it orders? (Non cannon (not sure if this in the book): A particular line from the movie "Parseltongue won't save you now, Potter- the basilisk only responds to me." is what prompted this train of thought). Also, if Harry being a descendant of Gryffindor and Slytherin is what made the sorting hat so indecisive...then wouldn't Lily have been in Slytherin? (http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm Q: Which house was Lily Potter in, and what is her maiden name? Rowling: [Lily]...was in Gryffindor (naturally). ) "Jess" From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Nov 18 07:06:57 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 07:06:57 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Norris In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46732 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "vincentjh" wrote: > Hi all, > > ...edited... > > Why's Mrs. Norris petrified(sp.)? Why petrify a cat? Is she a threat > to the plan? > > It's puzzled me since my first reading. And I still cannot find a > suitable explanation for that. Any idea? > > VJH bboy_mn speculates: I don't think the basilisk specifically sought out Mrs. Norris. There was nothing special about the cat. The basilisk was probably under orders to kill some one/thing, and the cat just happened to be the thing it encountered. To Riddle, that was sufficient to send a message to the school that the Chamber had been open. So, he had Ginny hang the cat and painted the message. The Basilisk seems to have consistently roamed the castle until it encountered someone, then by nature or on order from Riddle, returned to the Chamber after the first encounter of that roaming of the school. At some point, my memory isn't too fresh, Riddle's goal was to entice Harry into the Chamber. So any basilisk roamings were simply to keep Harry searching for the entrance to the Chamber. As a side note: I don't think seeing a basilisks eyes will kill you. You have to be held in it's gaze. In other words, it has to look right at you. Possibly, you even have to look at each other; your gazes have to lock together. This explains how Riddle could keep his eyes open and control the basilisk. He probably ordered it to never look at him. Just a thought that came to me while I was thinking about this post. bboy_mn From eloiseherisson at aol.com Mon Nov 18 07:13:54 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 02:13:54 EST Subject: The Riddle House /Riddle's House Message-ID: <1a1.bdd1094.2b09ed32@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46733 Debbie: > Although it is > entirely possible that the house is indeed owned by some rich muggle > for taxation purposes, JKR tends to "keep things within the family" so > to speak, so it's not impossible to think that the house is owned by > someone we've already met. I myself tend to think that the person is > Dumbledore, but other have voted for Lucius Malfoy. > > I vote for Lucius Malfoy for several reasons. First, canon states that the > present owner of the Riddle house is wealthy. We know Lucius is wealthy. > That doesn't discount Dumbledore, because IIRC his finances have not been > discussed. > You know, I've always thought it was owned by Voldemort himself. I know he's been disembodied, but given that it is an absentee owner, I've al ways assumed that Frank Bryce's wages were paid directly to his bank. (I assume that, whoever owns it.) Would Voldemort feel free and confident to use the house if it were owned by Malfoy (or anyone else)? He picks the time that he reveals himself to the DEs - not until he has his body back. If he regards Malfoy as 'slippery', I suspect he wouldn't trust him whilst still in his weakened state. It doesn't sound to me like they've been in contact until the meeting in the graveyard, unless his berating of Malfoy is all show, so I can't believe its a convenient arrangement between the two. Voldemort, being an Evil Overlord, naturally has access to wealth. If a notorious 'criminal' like Sirius can access his Gringotts bank account at a distance to pay for a mail order broomstick, I don't see any reason why the goblins wouldn't carry on some standing order arranged by Voldemort in pre-vapour days. (There has to be some mechanism whereby wizard and Muggle currencies are exchanged, but that is a problem that seems to be solvable, given that the Grangers are able to exchange their Muggle money.) Megalynn: >I do have a CANNON related question. It is, however, >inspired by the movie. In the Chamber scenes, Riddle is wearing Ravenclaw >colors. His tie is blue and his patch has an R on it. I know I not mistaken >because I stared at it the entire time in disbelief. So, my question is, is >there any cannon evidence that ever states what house Tom Riddle/Voldemort >belonged too? We have different perceptions of colour. I didn't notice the patch, I'm afraid, but I did particularly note Riddle's tie and the band around the neck of his sweater and I was firmly convinced they were green and silver (although it's rather a teal green). There's a nice picture of him on the Leaky Cauldron and they look green, rather than blue, to me there, too. I'll just have to go to the film again to check! Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From judyshapiro at directvinternet.com Mon Nov 18 08:31:56 2002 From: judyshapiro at directvinternet.com (Judy) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:31:56 -0000 Subject: Choosing the Basilisk's Victims (was: Mrs. Norris) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46734 Vincentjh asked: > > Why's Mrs. Norris petrified(sp.)? Why petrify a cat? < < And bboy_mn speculated: > I don't think the basilisk specifically sought out Mrs. Norris... > The Basilisk seems to have consistently roamed the castle > until it encountered someone, then by nature > or on order from Riddle, returned > to the Chamber after the first encounter of that > roaming of the school. > ...I don't think seeing a basilisks eyes will kill you. > You have to be held in it's gaze. In other words, it has to look > right at you. Possibly, you even have to look at each other; > your gazes have > to lock together. This explains how Riddle > could keep his eyes open > and control the basilisk. He probably ordered > it to never look at him.< "Why attack Mrs. Norris" is a good question, which then raises the more general question of "Can the Basilisk choose its victims, and if so, how?" My understanding of how the Basilisk works is similar to BBoy's -- look into the Basilisk's eyes, and you're dead (or petrified, if you see the eyes through a ghost or in a mirror.) But, if that's how it works, how can the Basilisk choose whom it will "attack"? The Basilisk can't look around and choose a victim, without risking looking into the eyes of the wrong person. This seems to be what happened to Myrtle. She just happened to open the bathroom door and -- oops. She was dead. There's nothing to indicate that Tom Riddle choose her as a victim. In fact, given that he was distressed about the closing of the school, it's likely that he expected the bathroom to be empty and that her death was not planned. Just attacking victims at random might work fine for the purpose of luring Harry to the Chamber or for the purpose of getting Dumbledore and the Weasleys in trouble (which may have been Lucius' goal.) However, how would it help rid the school of muggleborns? Presumably, Salazaar Slytherin's monster could attack muggleborns specifically. Furthermore, all of the petrified humans in CoS *were* muggleborn, and this doesn't seem like it could be coincidence. So, there needs to be some method to select specific victims, but I don't know what that would be. A couple of more points about the Basilisk. I agree that the room containing the entrance to the Chamber might not have been a girls' bathroom back in Salazaar's time. If it had been a girls' bathroom, though, that would be interesting -- it might imply that Salazaar expected his heir to be a girl! And, even if Myrtle's death wasn't planned, I'd still say that Tom Riddle was morally responsible for her death. He unleashed the monster on the school. I expect that Myrtle will play an important role in future books. She was Voldemort's first victim, and who knows what powers ghosts have? JKR says we will learn more about why ghosts are in contact with the living, and perhaps it will be revealed that Myrtle is there for a reason. ~~ Judy Serenity From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Nov 18 09:41:52 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 03:41:52 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs. Norris References: Message-ID: <3DD8B5E0.AA893508@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46735 vincentjh wrote: > > Hi all, > > I've been on the list for a while but I'm falling behind the > discussion and don't know if this has been covered. So I'll just > throw the questions out-- > > Why's Mrs. Norris petrified(sp.)? Why petrify a cat? Is she a threat > to the plan? > > It's puzzled me since my first reading. And I still cannot find a > suitable explanation for that. Any idea? > > VJH Its unlikely the basilisk can control who its powers work on. ANYONE that looks in its eyes (is dead) or even the reflection of its eyes (petrified) is affected, even animals. Bet spiders, who have eight eyes after all, would flee in terror of it.. The cat might have also been 'a warning' that worse was yet to come and was an easy target or got nailed by accident and made a handy 'message'. Jazmyn From potter76 at libero.it Mon Nov 18 10:06:01 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:06:01 +0100 (ora solare Europa occ.) Subject: A little favour Message-ID: <3DD8BB89.000008.40109@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 46736 Can I ask everyone a little favour? would you mind signaling in the subject to your posts if they are related to the 2nd HP movie? It doesn't come out here in Italy for at least another fortnight and I'd like to read no spoilers' till I see it. If you do I'll be able to save all those posts and read them after I see the movie. I hope this is no bother to you. Thanks R. From gandharvika at hotmail.com Mon Nov 18 12:20:30 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:20:30 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Eat Dung, Draco Malfoy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46737 Eat Dung, Draco Malfoy (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Roll Over Beethoven) This classic was originally written and performed by the rock-n-roll legend, Chuck Berry, but can you guess which famous British band did a cover of this song in the 1960's? :)> Listen to a Midi here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle03.html But dig the original on Real Audio here! http://members.tripod.com/~yomama32/sounds.html Ron: Was watching Harry practice On the pitch along with Hermione The Slytherin team walked on and Draco bought his way onto the team Eat dung, Draco Malfoy You're the last person I want to see Called Hermione Mudblood And said it with a smirk You're name's going to be mud Once I'm finished with my work Eat dung, Draco Malfoy You lousy little jerk You hide behind Crabbe and Goyle Strut around like you're so tough You are just plain spoiled Today I'm going to call your bluff Eat dung, Draco Malfoy I've just about had enough I'm going to pull out my wand Cast this curse and then in a second You'll be spewing all sorts of slugs Just wait and see and then you'll be sorry You came over Eat dung, Draco Malfoy Don't mess around with me I'm telling you this morning I'm a-giving you fair warning This time you've gone way too far You'll never ever Be just as clever As you think you are Eat dung, Draco Malfoy And go crying to your pa You know I hate your guts, Malfoy You'll be paying for that wisecrack You are really annoying Oughta give you such a smack My wand's pointing at you Now let's see how you react Eat dung, Draco Malfoy Eat dung, Draco Malfoy Eat dung, Draco Malfoy Eat dung, Draco Malfoy Eat dung, Draco Malfoy And dig this slug spewing curse! *Ron points his wand furiously at Malfoy, and a loud bang echoes around the stadium as a jet of green light shoots out of the wrong end of Ron's wand, hitting him the stomach and sending him reeling backwards onto the grass. -Gail B...who is so glad she found a Real Audio site for you to listen to the original because the original ROCKS! _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From gandharvika at hotmail.com Mon Nov 18 12:48:30 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:48:30 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Norris Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46738 VJH Asked; Mrs. Norris petrified(sp.)? Why petrify a cat? Is she a threat > > to the plan? > > > > It's puzzled me since my first reading. And I still cannot find a > > suitable explanation for that. Any idea? Bboy Speculated: >I don't think the basilisk specifically sought out Mrs. Norris. There >was nothing special about the cat. The basilisk was probably under >orders to kill some one/thing, and the cat just happened to be the >thing it encountered. My question is...Harry kept hearing the basilisk say "kill...tear...blood..." etc, but none of it's victims died. Did it think that they had already died, and not just petrified? And why didn't the basilisk munch the people he petrified if it was talking about blood and stuff? Bboy also Mentioned: >As a side note: I don't think seeing a basilisks eyes will kill you. >You have to be held in it's gaze. In other words, it has to look right >at you. Possibly, you even have to look at each other; your gazes have >to lock together. This explains how Riddle could keep his eyes open >and control the basilisk. He probably ordered it to never look at him. Er...Moaning Myrtle died in the bathroom just by looking directly at the basilisk's eyes... -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Audra1976 at aol.com Mon Nov 18 15:13:20 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:13:20 -0500 Subject: Choosing the Basilisk's Victims (was: Mrs. Norris) Message-ID: <518AA396.170FD4C8.022D3A68@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46739 Judy writes: <> Now me: The basilisk wasn't just wandering around the halls, randomly petrifying whoever was there. It traveled in the pipes, so that when a muggleborn student was near it (and pretty much alone), it would emerge. Now, the more specific questions is: Could the basilisk itself tell purebloods from muggleborns? Possibly, it could have been trained to do so by Salazar Slytherin if that was, in fact, the basilisks purpose for being in the Chamber, and if there is actually a way to differentiate muggleborns and purebloods by scent or something. So it may have just wandered through the pipes until it smelled a muggleborn and attacked. Or did Tom Riddle just find out which students were muggleborn through Ginny, and tell the basilisk who to attack? Colin is in her class and in her House. She knows Hermione pretty well too, and Penelope is her brother's girlfriend. She could have mentioned in the diary that they were muggleborn, or if she didn't mention it herself, Tom surely coaxed it out of her. She wouldn't have really known Justin Finch-Fletchley, being in a different House and a different year, but it's possible that she knew he was muggleborn. Perhaps her brother mentioned that Justin was acting afraid of Harry because Harry knew he was muggleborn, and that's how Ginny found out, and was able to convey the information to Tom. I believe Myrtle and Mrs. Norris were accidents. They happened to be in or near the bathroom when the basilisk emerged, and before it crawled into the pipes. Maybe Ginny knew about Filch being a squib, and Tom decided that was a good enough reason to hang the cat there with the message, but it doesn't really matter either way. I don't know if Tom even realized that the basilisk had killed Myrtle. If he noticed, why would he leave a dead body in the stall, rather than chucking it down into the Chamber or something? He must have realized the implications of the body being found there, and that he might not get the chance to release the basilisk again to kill the non-purebloods that were probably on his list at the time. Audra From gte510i at prism.gatech.edu Mon Nov 18 16:16:02 2002 From: gte510i at prism.gatech.edu (gte510i) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:16:02 -0000 Subject: Choosing the Basilisk's Victims (was: Mrs. Norris) In-Reply-To: <518AA396.170FD4C8.022D3A68@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46740 > > The basilisk wasn't just wandering around the halls, randomly petrifying whoever was there. It traveled in the pipes, so that when a muggleborn student was near it (and pretty much alone), it would emerge. Now, the more specific questions is: Could the basilisk itself tell purebloods from muggleborns? Possibly, it could have been trained to do so by Salazar Slytherin if that was, in fact, the basilisks purpose for being in the Chamber, < But that can't be right. One of the big tenets of Dumbledore and co. is that there is no difference between muggleborns and purebloods. If there was something as different as odor between them then there may actually be a genetic difference. The monster pretty much has to rely on the heir to direct it, if it is to be used to attack muggle- borns only. The monster could be given free reign of the school, but that defeats the purpose of the 'ethnic cleansing'. catherine From obby at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Nov 18 16:34:36 2002 From: obby at blueyonder.co.uk (Richard Thorp) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:34:36 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Yule Ball & JKR's "Englishisms" In-Reply-To: <20021117162956.A82FE299E6@xmxpita.excite.com> References: <20021117162956.A82FE299E6@xmxpita.excite.com> Message-ID: <114950883187.20021118163436@blueyonder.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 46742 Rah! Something I can talk from experience about... The UK in general does not have many school dances.. In fact, most of the time it will end up being a christmas party organised by the students, held away from school, rather than an organised thing. A lot of JKR's writing is very much based around English commonalities, like the lack of dances/balls, the school system (GCSEs/OWLs and A-Levels/NEWTs), class system, railways (true some of this is necessitated by the living-in-UK point, but it still stands that JKR puts a lot of English-ism into the books). Another good example is the emphasis on the one sport (Quidditch) with a 4-yearly World Cup (unlike the Super Bowl or any similar American sports, which are yearly (I assume? :)) This is why fanficcing can be dangerous I suppose, since a lot of the fic writers are American, and some don't bother too much with Americanism-eradicating test readings... I'm rambling, nevermind :) Hope that helps! -Rich msn: obbles at hotmail.com From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Nov 18 16:01:39 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:01:39 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Choosing the Basilisk's Victims (was: Mrs. Norris) References: <518AA396.170FD4C8.022D3A68@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DD90EE3.98DF804C@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46743 Come to think of if, not all victims were in fact muggleborn. Ginny is pureblood, Nearly headless Nick is a ghost and we don't know if he was purebred or not in life and the cat wasn't a wizard at all. None of those died..well, Nick did, but 500 years before. There's nothing to support the idea that the monster only effected or went after muggles. Muggle born were only its master's primary target. Jazmyn From Audra1976 at aol.com Mon Nov 18 17:20:32 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:20:32 -0500 Subject: Choosing the Basilisk's Victims (was: Mrs. Norris) Message-ID: <4CD56C5E.4EAB01F0.022D3A68@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46744 I speculated: <> Catherine says: <> Now me again: Personally, I believe the second scenario that I proposed in my previous post, that Tom commanded the basilisk based on information he received from Ginny, but I wouldn't rule out the idea that the basilisk could have been trained to know muggleborns from purebloods itself. Saying that the basilisk could possibly sense the difference between the two, by scent or some other sense, is not saying that muggleborns and purebloods aren't equal. Men and women are equals, yet even we humans can detect a scent difference between the two sexes, and our sense of small is extremely weak compared to other animals. Snakes have a more highly developed veromernasal organ than any other vertebrate, and I would assume the basilisk has a powerful sense of smell as well. It might very well be able to sense a difference between pureblooded and muggleborn wizards. Jazmyn wrote: <> I say: Nick was just in the way of Justin. The basilisk may not have even noticed him there. Mrs. Norris just happened to be around the bathroom when the basilisk came out, like Myrtle, and Ginny, well, that was Lucius's fault for giving her the diary. Tom had to leech from whoever was in possession of the diary to become human again. Audra From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Nov 18 17:34:02 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:34:02 -0000 Subject: Choosing the Basilisk's Victims (was: Mrs. Norris) In-Reply-To: <3DD90EE3.98DF804C@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46745 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jazmyn wrote: > > Come to think of if, not all victims were in fact muggleborn. Ginny is > pureblood, Nearly headless Nick is a ghost and we don't know if he was > purebred or not in life and the cat wasn't a wizard at all. None of > those died..well, Nick did, but 500 years before. There's nothing to > support the idea that the monster only effected or went after muggles. > Muggle born were only its master's primary target. > > Jazmyn The non-muggle-born victims-Moaning Myrtle, Mrs. Norris and Nearly- headless Nick- were guilty of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. IMO, they were not targeted victims- but merely got in the way, so to speak. IMO, Riddle makes it very clear that he is carrying on his ancestor-Salazar Slytherin's- work, that is, to rid Hogwarts of muggle-borns. The CoS makes it plain that Slytherin left Hogwarts because he could not get his way concerning who would be admitted to Hogwarts-leaving the Chamber of Secrets with its basalisk behind to continue his dirty work whenever the right person came along. Enter Tom Riddle-then Riddle left his diary behind-again to eventually carry on the work of Slytherin. Thanks to Harry-the basalisk and the diary have been destroyed-hopefully rendering the Chamber of Secrets useless-but who knows?. Recently JKR has stated that the CoS (the book) contained important clues-relevant to the series. My opinion in regards to what these clues might be-center around Ginny-the possible after effects of her contact with Riddle and also the comparisons drawn by Riddle himself between him and Harry-pointing out certain similarities. Apparently the CoS still has some secrets to reveal. bugaloo37 From jodel at aol.com Mon Nov 18 18:38:19 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:38:19 EST Subject: Sharing Blood/genetic theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46746 "Jess" states; << [...I've always assumed that some muggleborns may be the products of bloodlines where magic was thought to have 'died out', i.e. marriage between squibs & nonmagic folks (For whatever reason I think of 'magical abilities' as a sort of recessive trait, though many of the half & half students at Hogwarts defy that theory, unless of course their muggle parent carries the recessive magic gene.)] >> I suspect that in Rowling's world about half of the British population probably carry at least 1 or 2 resessive magical genes. And that you need at least 8 to 10 magical genes before the individual is psychicly "active" enough to actually do magic. I also agree that most, if not all, magical genes are probably resessives. For one thing, a recessive can hang around for aeons without ever actually being lost, and for another, they can "hide" very quickly in the presence of competing dominanants. It also means that once a pairing has produced one functionally "magical" child, it is all the more likely to produce others (like the Creevys, one of whose parents, if not both, probably just missed being magical themselves.) I also suspect that there is a fairly broad range of magical genes (a couple of dozen at least) and that not only do many wizards and witches have FAR more than the minimum, but that not every wizard or witch in Britian has quite the same set. (Which would explain how some wizard-Muggle crosses consistently produce magical children even if the Muggle parent may be one of the half of the population without any magical genes to contribute, while the rare wizard-witch pairing occasionally manages to produce a Squib. Although in the case of Squibs, there is also the possibility of gene mutation (possibly due to exposure to dangerous magical processes) having damaged one or more of the crutial magical genes, rendering them inactive. -JOdel From talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 18 18:43:19 2002 From: talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com (Darla) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:43:19 -0000 Subject: Draco's Grades In-Reply-To: <037b01c28e9c$0bdd73a0$01ca7ad5@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46747 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Irene Mikhlin" wrote: I'm not a fan of Draco, so I don't care either way, but it just does not > feel > right for Lucius. Did he memorise the whole list? What's the point of > berating Draco about letting "muggle-born" to top the class if there were > other people ahead of Draco? I think he only knows Hermione's name because > she's taking the place he thought was Draco's birth-right. > > Irene ********* I think the reason Hermione's name was mentioned (Muggle issues aside) is quite simply because; a) She is a character we all know. b) She *is* very bright and comparing Draco to another character of which we're unsure of their intellectual level would not be so effective. Hermione is really the only character, along with Neville, that we're given a clear picture of their grades. We know Harry and Ron etc. do well enough, and are clearly bright students, but their actual achievments are less emphasised then Hermione's. Also, I think the important point J.K.Rowling was trying to get across is nothing to do with Hermione, but instead the pressure put on Draco by his father. From this I don't perceive Draco to be second in his year. Darla. From monzaba at poczta.onet.pl Mon Nov 18 20:14:50 2002 From: monzaba at poczta.onet.pl (monika_zaboklicka) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:14:50 -0000 Subject: Draco's Grades In-Reply-To: <19635688468.20021117202006@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46748 Well, this scene is a bit ridiculous and for me it proves only one thing - Malfoys are brats. "That [stealing] may indeed be all he is fit for". Bravo, Mr. Malfoy! Keep telling your kid he's good only for stealing and you might find it to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. "It's not my fault" Draco, Draco! who's keeping you from studying? Stop whining! "The teachers all have their favourites" Like Snape, huh? If Draco gets poorer grades at Potions than Hermione, Mr. Malfoy's criticism is well justified. "I would have thought you'd be ashamed that a [Mudblood] beat you in every exam". Again, Potions included? And was Mr. Malfoy such an outstanding student in his time? And since when he's so interested in his son's achievements at DADA lessons? Wasn't he going to send Draco to Durmstrang, to let him learn "proper stuff", i.e. Dark Arts, not Defence against them? Like father, like son, as Snape said on a different occasion. Monika (the Snapefan) From monzaba at poczta.onet.pl Mon Nov 18 20:38:24 2002 From: monzaba at poczta.onet.pl (monika_zaboklicka) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:38:24 -0000 Subject: Choosing the Basilisk's Victims (was: Mrs. Norris) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46749 Come to think of it, the Basilisk proved to be higly incompetent in killing Muggle-borns. Sure, Rowlings lets us think that all failures were accidental - the water splittered on the floor, Colin's camera and presence of Nick - that all were things Riddle might not think about. Still, killing nobody is quite a poor result for the ultimate terrorist of wizarding world. My theory is that Riddle had chosen wrong tools - Basilisk (hardly an equivalent of Muggle snaeper gun) and Ginny - who most propably was unwilling to hurt anybody, and therefore resisted Riddle's call to let the Basilisk loose when it'd do most harm. Riddle's plan to get rid of Muggle-borns had much more to do with wishful thinking that actual action; I believe that neither of his victims was "choosen" (with obvious exception of Ginny). He was sixteen when he put himself into this diary. It took him thirty-odd years to become efficient. And that's the trouble wizards have to face now. Monika From alicit at aol.com Mon Nov 18 20:17:36 2002 From: alicit at aol.com (alicit at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:17:36 EST Subject: On the Basilisk's (and Tom's) victims Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46750 Ooh, it's my first post. How special... On Ginny as Tom's victim: Audra says: "...and Ginny, well, that was Lucius's fault for giving her the diary.? Tom had to leech from whoever was in possession of the diary to become human again." I agree with this completely. Lucius was probably looking for someone to give the book to (maybe intending to hide it in a school book in the store) when he encountered the Weasleys & co. Maybe he wanted to stir things up Deatheater style, because he had no idea Voldemort eas about to come back (sort of like the group at the World Quidditch Cup did) or maybe he wanted to make his son's years at Hogwarts legendary for the eradication of the Muggle-born, or (which is most probable) Tom told him to return his book to Hogwarts. Anyway, I think that the choice of Ginny was not random or just Lucius being against the Weasleys. Voldemort probably shared Lucius' contempt of Wizarding families who consorted with Muggles like Arthur Weasley does. Is it not possible that Lucius was writing in the journal and told Tom about the Weasley family? Maybe then Tom told him to give the book to one of the children, and might or may not have told him for what purpose. Which brings up another, really deep point. If Tom can control the keepers of his diary without their knowing, could Lucius be partially truthful when he says that he was under the imperius curse when serving Voldemort? His actions after he gives the diary away are just underhanded, and none are truly evil. Just some food for thought. On The Basilisk's thoughts: Gail B. says: "My question is...Harry kept hearing the basilisk say "kill...tear...blood..." etc, but none of it's victims died.? Did it think that they had already died, and not just petrified?" I'm under the impression that the Basilisk is not too smart. He probably doesn't understnad concepts like "ethnic clensing" or "petrify," he just thinks about killing and eating, even if that is not what his real goal is. He's like an attack dog, he only listens to his master, Tom Riddle, and thinks that he's killing for food, when it's for other purposes, like attack dogs are trained to attack men who wear steaks on body pads. His "Kill... Tear... Blood" mantra might be something like a football psych. Or it cold just be how he speaks. He might not know any more words, because he is not created to do more than petrify people. Gail also asks: "And why didn't the basilisk munch the people he petrified if it was talking about blood and stuff?" Probably because of his training from Slytherin. Going back to my attack dog analogy: after the dog brings down his attacker, he returns to his master to get a treat. The basilisk was probably trained to leave the bodies behind by Slytherin. On the subject of where a Basilisk comes from: I saw the conversation about the relation between Basilisks and Cockatrice (cockatrices? how do you pluralize Cockatrice?) and looked it up in my _Larousse_Dictionary_of_World_Folklore._ On that subject, the dictionary combines the two into basically the same animal, the names coming from different stories.The intersting thing, though, was this part; "The sound of a cock crow is fatal to a basilisk, and its only other natural enemy is the weasel." (Larousse 52) Weasly reference, anyone? This brought three theories directly to my mind: a) Ginny and Ron's presence/actions lead to the defeat of the basilisk (ie. something they said, Ginny's warning Harry) I'll review the book after I get my own copy (softcover, so I can write in it!) to see if I can see anything to support this. b) (Least likely) Harry, who defeats Tom's basilisk, is related to the Weasleys (sorry, H/G shippers) b.5) Addendum: This just struck me. It was Godric Gryffindor's sword that could defeat the basilisk, maybe Godrick is an ancestor to the Weasleys, and this is the connection. c) (most likely) The Weasleys embody the thing that will destroy the Basilisk and all it represents. They are good people, they see muggle-borns and pure-bloods as equals, and they are all around good guys. The Basilisk is a thing of fear and a vessel for mass murder based on bigotry and hatred. One of the only weapons we have against hatred, the basilisk, is kindness, like the Weasleys. It could also have no significance, but that's no fun, now, is it? Woah, pretty good for a first post! I'm so proud of myself, and here I thought I would have nothing to say. -Scheherazade [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 18 20:53:08 2002 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Megalynn S.) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:53:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Riddle's House Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46751 > > So, my question is, is > > there any cannon evidence that ever states what house Tom >Riddle/Voldemort > > belonged too? > > Megalynn Alina Replies: >In PS/SS Harry's told that Voldemort was a Slytherin by either Ron or >Hagrid >(I can't quite remember, but it's one of them) Now me again: Can you give me at least a specific chapter? I have looked thorugh and can't find it. I still swear it was Ravenclaw robes. I stared at them the entire scene to make sure, but I will be happilly disproven if someone could give me a quote from a specific chapter and book. Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From alina at distantplace.net Mon Nov 18 21:49:59 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:49:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Riddle's House References: Message-ID: <005801c28f4c$7207de80$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46752 > Now me again: > Can you give me at least a specific chapter? I have looked thorugh and can't > find it. I still swear it was Ravenclaw robes. I stared at them the entire > scene to make sure, but I will be happilly disproven if someone could give > me a quote from a specific chapter and book. > > Megalynn Canadian edition, Philosopher's Stone, Chapter: Diagon Alley. Hagrid and Harry on the street right after Harry had a run in with Draco in Madame Malkin's robes shop: "I bet I'm in Hufflepuff," said Harry gloomily. "Better Hufflepuff than Slytherin," said Hagrid darkly, "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You-Know-Who was one." Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 13/11/2002 From chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Mon Nov 18 21:13:34 2002 From: chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia=20Chrysshallie?=) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:13:34 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Riddle's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021118211334.2045.qmail@web10407.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46753 Alina Replies: >>In PS/SS Harry's told that Voldemort was a Slytherin >>by either Ron or Hagrid >>(I can't quite remember, but it's one of them) "Megalynn S." wrote: >Can you give me at least a specific chapter? I have looked thorugh and can't find it. I still swear it was Ravenclaw robes. I stared at them the entire scene to make sure, but I will be happilly disproven if someone could give me a quote from a specific chapter and book.< Actually both Hagrid and Ron told Harry that Voldemort was in Slytherin. PS/SS chapter five (Diagon Alley): (Hagrid says) "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin.You-Know-Who was one." PS/SS chapter six (The journey from platform nine and three quarters): (Ron said) "but imagine if they put me in Slytherin." "That's the house Vol- I mean You-Know-Who was in?" "Yeah,"said Ron. I think Hagrid knows that Voldemort was once Tom Riddle. He would not forget the boy who caused him to be expelled quickly. Hagrid would wonder what Tom has become. Dumbledore might have told him that Voldemort was Tom Riddle. Vinnia From summer2999 at aol.com Mon Nov 18 21:47:53 2002 From: summer2999 at aol.com (Summer, aka The Friendly Frolicker) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:47:53 -0000 Subject: Greetings! and Rita Skeeter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46754 Hello friends, my name is Carolyn. I just joined this group, when I realized that this was the place to go for discussions about Harry Potter that were intelligent... just what I was looking for. I'm 18, so don't worry, I'm a "grown-up." Anyways, I was driving along today, when a thought suddenly occured to me. Rita Skeeter. She was mentioned a lot in GoF, but at the end of the book, there was really no point. I mean, why did we go through the book reading about the awful things she was writing about Harry in the Daily Prophet, if at the end the only result was that Hermione caught her as a beetle? It doesn't seem that JK Rowling had enough reason to write all of that about her if in the end she just gets caught and that's the end. I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but I didn't see it at Fantastic Posts and Where to Find Them, so I figured I'd bring it up. I wonder if Rita Skeeter will turn on in the next book, angry at Hermione for catching her and seeking revenge... I could definetly see her being evil too, but who knows? I'd like to hear what other people think of this though. One other thing... I know this has been discussed but, as I was reading GoF the other day, I decided that Hagrid will die. During the part where he's talking to Harry about how proud he is of him, and how sure he is that Harry will win the Tournament... something about that made me just be like, "Ooooh! He's dead!" Not sure why I came to that conclusion... but oh well. And one other thing... how do I get this to change my name? It says at the top of my screen "From: Summer, aka the Friendly Frolicker" which is pretty stupid and which I want to change... any wise intelligent people know how to help? Alright, I'm done. Have a nice day. Peace, Carolyn From sgarfio at yahoo.com Mon Nov 18 23:39:05 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:39:05 -0000 Subject: How did Ginny open the chamber? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46755 Okay, I'm dreadfully behind after moving, and I've spent most of the day trying to extract information from Yahoomort about this with no luck (although it did point me to a lot of interesting posts), so I'll just jump in with both feet, and hope they don't land in my mouth. How exactly did sweet little Ginny open the Chamber of Secrets? We know she was under Tom Riddle's control, but you have to be a Parselmouth to tell the sink to open up. I'm not sure I can accept that Tom made her speak Parseltongue; all evidence seems to imply that Parselmouth is a gift from birth, not something you can learn. We do have Tom's own explanation, from chapter 17, The Heir of Slytherin (p. 310 US PB - I'm so proud that I finally brought my canon to work ;-)): "I grew powerful, far more powerful than little Miss Weasley. Powerful enough to start feeding Miss Weasley a few of *my* secrets, to start pouring a little of *my* soul back into *her*..." I suppose that this act of "pouring a little of *my* soul back into *her*" could be similar to Dumbledore's speculation on why Harry is a Parselmouth - Ginny could have learned Parseltongue from her connection with Tom, at least enough to say "Open up!". But another idea occurred to me while I was watching TMTMNBN-2 (twice this weekend!): What if the Weasleys are decendants of Slytherin? And what if Lucius Malfoy knows it? I did run across several posts in my battle with Yahoomort that asked why Lucius waited until this year to plant the diary. What if he was waiting for both Harry and a Weasley child to be at Hogwarts? Any Weasley would do, but waiting until Harry was at Hogwarts would serve both to frame Harry and to give Riddle the opportunity to kill Harry. The older Weasley kids were probably too savvy by the time Harry started to fall into Tom's trap, and Ron is too close to Harry to risk using him, which leaves Ginny. Now, of course, my proposition implies that the Weasleys would also be Parselmouths, or at least Ginny, without anybody in the family ever noticing this about each other or themselves. But what if there is something special about the *7th* child of a Slytherin decendant? This has been explored before in the "Missing Weasley Child" posts. If it's only the 7th child, then that would explain why Parselmouth is such a rare gift: it would only occur in one bloodline, and only when someone in that bloodline has at least 7 children. What do we know about Tom Riddle's family? We know that his Muggle father abandoned his witch mother while she was pregnant with him, and that he subsequently grew up in an orphanage when his mother died (giving birth to him? Alas, my GoF is at home). But do we know if they had any other children? If they did, given the conditions of orphanages many years ago (which I know about only from reading Dickens), 7 siblings could easily have been separated, and Tom, being an infant at the time, would never have known they existed. But being the 7th child of a Slytherin decendant, he would have been endowed with the gift of Parseltongue. As a side note, there has been speculation that the Weasleys' Muggle relation (Molly's cousin, the accountant? Alas, my SS is also at home) is a link to red-headed Lily. If so, that also puts Lily in Slytherin's line. We know that Harry is a "true Gryffindor", presumably through James, so this lends creedence to those who have suggested that Harry is heir to both Slytherin and Gryffindor, if indeed being a "true Gryffindor" means being Godric Gryffindor's heir. Also, if the Weasleys are indeed Slytherin decendants, the revelation of this would also make for an interesting dilemma for Harry and Ron, although this revelation would have to come before Harry's heritage is revealed, if he is indeed the dual heir. Okay, you may now commence in blasting my theory. Sherry From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 19 00:12:23 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 00:12:23 -0000 Subject: TBAY Busy Hairy Sunflowers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46756 Digging through her closet for a pair of blue jeans and a sweatshirt, Melody was glad to finally be able to leave her room. Seems Pip and Grey had felt it was best for her to be confined for her own safety and their sanity. But now off her prescribed meds and beginning to feel her head returning to a fairly round state, breathing free air was her only care. Well that and working out a project Frankie brought her. While she was under close supervision, Frankie was kind enough to busy Melody's mind and hands with the possibility that Dumbledore's watch was created by the centaurs. Intrigued by the idea, Melody worked all her few non-painful hours on the idea. She had most of it mapped out and wanted to run it by Frankie. Finding what she was looking for in her closet and dressing quickly, Melody gathered her notes and books to head off to the RATS room hoping to find Frankie there. Skipping down the stairs, a strange scent hit her. Seems Frankie was indeed in her room and was currently repainting the walls. Not sure she wanted to kill more brain cells, Melody paused, but in the end, her curiosity got the better of her. Coming to the steel door, Melody knocked on the frame and called "Frankie?" Carefully balanced on an end table, Frankie looked up from her masterpiece. Dressed again in her yellow and black tank top and cutoffs, this time not as saturated from the bay, Frankie greeted, "Hi, Mel. You look tons better." "Thanks," she smiled. "Why are you repainting the mural?" Frankie dropped her brush into a boar-headed stein full of mineral spirits and looked over her work. "The pig part was too realistic and the trousers looked a little lopsided. I wanted to kick it up a notch and make piggy's cheeks shine. Do you like it?" she asked while wiping brow causing a bit of pink streak across her face. "Yeah, you really captured the eyes. Can you take a break? I want to go over the centaur connection." Melody said shifting the weight of the books and papers in her hands. "Sure, sure. Let me get down," she said while jumping off the table. Melody sat down making herself comfortable on the floor. "You can sit in one of our chairs, Mel. Grey Wolf made plenty," Frankie offered as she settled into one. Melody eyed the bent and twisted willow branches and shivered a bit. "No. No, I am fine here." Frankie sympathetically smiled and asked, "What have you worked out?" "Oh, all kind of stuff," Melody said while flipping through her pages. "Do you have any figurines in here? I want to create a model of the centaurs and forest to work with." Frankie looked around and found three porcelain piggy banks. "Will these do?" "Well, they could in a pinch. Though it would be hard to imagine the human part. Hmmm. I wonder if the safe house has a toybox?" Melody asked. "I don't know. I would ask Sneeky," offered Frankie. "Oh, good idea. Sneeky!" Melody called. "Yes Miss," the house elf replied almost immediately. "Sneeky, do we have any action figures or toys around here?" Melody asked the little elf. Sneeky thought a bit, "Yes?m. Mr. Wolf has a box he uses to work out his theories, though he does not want them anymore. He says they are too hard to manipulate with his paws." Melody jumped at the idea of all those toys being thrown away, "Sneeky, please don't say you?re threw them out." she urged. "Oh, no Miss. Trash comes on Wednesdays. They are still here. In Mr. Wolf's room." Sneeky squeaked. Hurrying out the door, Melody called behind her, "Thanks Sneeky." Coming to the main living room, Melody looked around her. She had never visited Grey's room before and had no idea where it was. For that matter, she had no idea where Pip stayed either, but she had an idea that it was up those spiral stairs moving gently like an escalator. Going with the odds since she had never been in the west wing of the house, Melody headed down the corridor. Coming to massive oak door scarred with claw marks, her only guess was that this was it. Knocking at the door, Melody wondered if this was a good idea. Grey's gentle voice came from within, "Come in." Pushing with all her might, Melody cracked the door open and saw Grey Wolf standing there with his massively sized wireless keyboard in one paw and a projected CG images of his current theories dancing around the room. Upon seeing the girl, Grey relaxed and smiled, "Glad to see you are mending Mel." "Thanks," she blushed as she walked in and looked around at the images, "What are you doing?" Grey looked around the room realizing it might look a bit odd. "I was working out the timing of Spy!Sirius's escape and months away from Hogwarts. The CG figures help to equate the distance and needed mileage of the bird posts and when and where Sirius could of gone." "Cool," Melody said impressed. Looking a bit apprehensive and chewing on his lip a bit, Grey asked, "Mel, do you remember anything about your little loony adventure in the backyard a few days ago?" Melody, surprised he asked, said, "Um...not really. I remember being a bit dizzy and something about a grass stained thundercat, but it all blurry now. Why?" Grey looked back down at his keyboard, "I just wanted to make sure you did not believe what I said that day. I decided a long time ago that it is best to not try and outguess JKR. She is a crafty little thing. I only tried to argue with you that day to get you calm down." Smiling at the earnest werewolf, Melody breathed, "Understandable. Far be it for me to assume you meant what you said. You were only trying to get me back inside and in yours and Pip's safe arms. Relieved, Grey put down the keyboard and moved over to his dark leather desk chair next to where Mel was standing. "So then. What can I do for you?" "Well, Sneeky said you had a toybox here that you do not want anymore, and I was wondering if I could have it?" Melody asked picking a flower petal from Grey?s mane not expecting him to say no. He has always indulged her. He pointing to the corner but asked, "Why would you want those?" "To play with," Melody said quite frankly. It seemed pretty obviously to her. "Very well, they were too small for my paws anyway. I kept breaking the wings off Buckbeak," Grey said sitting back in his chair. Melody managed to raise the box and balance it on her hip. "Thanks, Grey. Will you be at dinner?" "Definitely. A wolf has to eat sometime and Sneeky is a wonderful chef," Grey added. "Great, See ya," Melody called as she headed back down the corridor to the RATS room. Reaching the door, Melody was happy to see Meg had joined Frankie and Sneeky had brought a tea tray. "Hi, Meg. What brings you here?" Melody asked lowering the toybox to the floor. "Frankie called me by fire. Told me that you had figured out how to prove the centaur watch connection, so I was greatly intrigued. And besides, I?ve got exactly one half-hour before my next class," Meg said settling in her willow rocker. Her pigtails were swaying along to the rhythm of the chair. "But first, what is this about you taking too much medicine?" "A completely accident I assure you," Melody looked up with innocence painted on her face. "I did not mean to take that much. I just could not see the dosage for the pain." Meg sized her up, "Alright then. But next time, I am bringing it myself in time-release canisters that open only when the hour strikes. But still...glad no harm was done, so on to the theory." "Ok," Melody said sorting through the toy box. "Let see." Pulling out three My Little Ponies, Melody quickly cut off their heads [why do I feel like the Godfather :) ] and spliced the ponies with the top body of a few he-man figures. "Ok, here we go. Y'all comfortable?" Frankie and Meg giggled at the muscular centaurs with the smooth fluffy pastel tails and clicked their tea cups to encourage Mel to start. "All right. Where should I begin?" Melody wondered looking over the books. Frankie rocked back, "Well, what exactly does PS/SS say about the watch?" "Let's see," Melody said opening PS/SS to where she marked it. ---- PS/SS Ch1: ...as he took a golden watch from his packet and examined it. It was a very odd watch. It had twelve hands but no numbers; instead, little planets were moving around the edge. ---- "So the watch has little planets running around the edge. I assume to be a sort of language of the stars for Dumbledore to read. Now who else reads the stars and planets? The centaurs," Melody began placing the he-man ponies out. Ronan had the purple tail, Bane the dark blue tail, and Firenze the pink. "Here is a bit passage a little later on from PS/SS Ch 15." --- He [Ronan] flung back his head and stared at the sky. "Mars is bright tonight." --- "Band did the same thing a couple of paragraphs later, and Firenze knew perfectly well what their planet reading meant, so it seems all centaurs, or at least the ones in the forbidden forest, can read the planets." Melody pulled out the lego trees from the toybox to create a rather sparse forest and a small Victorian dollhouse to represent Hogwarts. Happy with her little HP world, Melody tossed the next book and said, "Here, Frankie, read what FB&WTFT says about the centaurs." Frankie caught the book and let it fall open to the well broken binding of the part about the centaurs. Reading out loud the highlighted parts, ---- ...being intelligent and capable of speech, it [a centaur] should not strictly speaking be termed a beast... The ways of the centaur are shrouded in mystery. They are generally speaking as mistrustful of wizards as they are of Muggles... They are reputed to be well-versed in magical healing, divination, archery, and astronomy. ---- "Sounds straight forward enough. Back to you Mel," finished Frankie. Melody continued, "So the centaurs are well known to be into planet watching and are intelligent to the point of being thought equal to humans. They are also mysterious and keep to themselves. Now, we know Dumbledore has made friends with the merpeople of Hogwart's lake when in GoF Ch 20 Dumbledore talked to the Mercheifaintess Murcus after task two. So we can say that Dumbledore is on good relations with the merpeople on the lake." Melody picked back up PS/SS and turned to Ch 15 again, "In the forest, Hagrid had made friends with the centaurs even though they mistrust wizards and muggles." Bringing out a rather large stuffed smurf, Melody placed it in the forest then continued, "He had earned their trust and are on a first name basis with them. So, I figure, if Hagrid is good friends with the centaurs, it is safe to say Dumbledore also has good relations with them as well. Dumbledore is known to be kind and noble, so I would assume, or rather hope, the centaurs would also respect him." Melody stopped. "Y'all still with me? You are very quiet," she asked. Frankie and Meg looked up. They had been playing with the he-man centaurs making them charge each other and thus caused the he-man bodies to fall out. "Yeah, Dumbledore is friends with the centaurs. Fair assertion," Frankie agreed. "Yeah, no big jump of logic I think," Meg nodded piecing Firenze back together again. "Ok, then I will continue," Melody said stretching a bit. "So since Hagrid and Dumbledore are friends with the centaurs, it could be assumed that gifts could also be exchanged. So, what would a centaur give a powerful wizard? I say the planet watch." "But how can you say that the centaurs created it? They are in a forest," Frankie asked combing and braiding Bane's tail. "Good questions, now we know the forest is forbidden, right?" "Yeah," they chimed in agreement. "So no students can go out there. They are told for their safety, but it is possible for more reasons. They were told the same for the third floor corridor, and it was not a complete lie. Fluffy was dangerous, but it was also to keep intruders from the stone. So, it is possible the forest hides the centaur's little workshop." And with that Melody rummaged in the toybox to find a little matchbox and placed it in the middle of the lego tree forest. "So, the centaurs can do something besides just look up. They can go work in their shop to create special delicate rare timepieces for their use." Meg looked up from twisting the tails of Firenze and Ronan together and asked, "But there is no proof in the books." "Ai, but there is the possibility. Like Frankie read before, 'The ways of the centaur are shrouded in mystery.' No one really knows except those that have befriended the centaurs." Frankie looked down at the book again, "Hey, it says here they are 'forest-dwelling' so where ever there are centaurs, there could be a hidden watch shop. It even says here that centaurs live in herds of '10 to 50 members,' so they are in communities to work together." "Does it say where the centaurs are from?" Meg asked, "Maybe they are originally from Switzerland and picked up the art from there." Frankie skimmed down the book and said, "No, it says here Greece, but that was a great hope." "Yeah, I don't know how to work the Greece part in yet, but I am sure it could possibly. But even without it, we know the centaurs are smart enough, they know enough about the stars and planets, they are well hidden and cloaked in enough mystery that no one would know the watch shop existed, and, as Frankie pointed out, the centaurs have opposable thumbs. Besides, they must do something in that forest beside wander around and looking up." Frankie kicked her legs. "Like huge, hairy sunflowers." Melody and Meg smiled. "So what does this leave us?" Meg asked. "I think with the possibility that Dumbledore and the centaurs are friends enough to give Dumbledore a special centaur watch," Melody said quite convinced. Frankie and Meg nodded in agreement and continued playing with the tails of the he-man centaurs. Glad that she finally presented her findings, Melody sighed and thought, "At least there is more proof that a centaur created the watch than the likes of Trelawney." Melody From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Nov 19 00:36:15 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 00:36:15 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?I=92m_Uneasy_Bein'_Seen_(filk)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46757 I'm Uneasy Bein' Seen (PoA, Chap. 10) (my entry into the It's Not Easy Being Green competition) Hear a MIDI at http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/lyrics/green.htm Dedicated to Ellen A. THE SCENE: Honeydukes, in Hogsmeade. Enter, thanks to Marauder's Map, HARRY who quietly approaches RON & HERMIONE HERMIONE (examining a tray of blood-flavored lollipops) Ugh, no, Harry won't want one of those, they're for vampires, I expect. RON (shoving a jar of Cockroach Clusters under Hermione's nose): How about these? HARRY: Definitely not. HERMIONE: Harry! What are you doing here? How -- how did you --? HARRY (music) I'm so uneasy being seen Told to stay each day inside `cause I can't leave Though I thought it would be cooler getting sent to Hogsmeade sans note But nothing seemed less practical than that I was not feeling keen Then Fred and George bought in a really extra-ordinary thing There's tunnels you can pass right over if you're Consulting it, through Magic Mischief on its parchment As dots come alive. HERMIONE Being seen is not a good thing Seen by dementors unfriendly-like If seen, could be a victim of Sirius HARRY Stay unnoticed, on that I'm countin' This place's full as can be I'm now seein' all these things to eat It makes me a hungry guy But why hunger, why hunger Stay unseen and I'll do fine It's party time! And I think that what I want's to eat! - CMC (his faithful animal companion Kermit the Dog at his side) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From yyssww2001 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 19 00:46:24 2002 From: yyssww2001 at yahoo.com (yyssww2001) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 00:46:24 -0000 Subject: AK the most dangerous curse ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46758 I've been reread the GOF, and it bothers me .. why are there only 3 most forbidden curses, one of which is avada kedavra. In GOF was told that Wormtail blowed up a dozen of muggles with one curse and it seems to me a more dangerous curse than AK. Or do I misinterpret it ?, because i'm not from an english speaking country. -YY- From draco382 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 19 01:07:29 2002 From: draco382 at yahoo.com (draco382) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 01:07:29 -0000 Subject: Choosing the Basilisk's Victims (was: Mrs. Norris) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46759 Catherine wrote: > The monster could be given free reign of the school, but that defeats > the purpose of the 'ethnic cleansing'. Hello, Yeah, it does seem like the Basilisks primary purpose was for eliminating the non-purebloods...and perhaps also those that supported mixing blood (in the long run). In re of the discussion about Mrs. Norris, I always thought there was something REALLY human about that cat. Something like the previous discussion about Trevor. I am too lazy to look in the book, but there is some mention of Mrs. Norris being able to hunt down wandering students in the corridors at night and notifying Filch. Maybe this is just an animal characteristic, but even her name is suspiciously human. I think this has been discussed before. BTW...can someone tell me what a "kneazle" is? I know Crookshanks is supposed to be "half- kneazle" but I have no idea what that is. Is it from Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them? Thanks! ~draco382 From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 19 01:49:19 2002 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 01:49:19 -0000 Subject: AK the most dangerous curse ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46760 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "yyssww2001" wrote: > I've been reread the GOF, and it bothers me .. why are there only 3 > most forbidden curses, one of which is avada kedavra. > > In GOF was told that Wormtail blowed up a dozen of muggles with one > curse and it seems to me a more dangerous curse than AK. Or do I > misinterpret it ?, because i'm not from an english speaking country. > > -YY- If you want to be very nitpicky about it you could say that Wormtail's spell really wasn't designed to kill anyone. His main purpose was to blow a hole to the sewer below and stage his disappearence after setting up Sirius and making himself look like a hero. The fact that it killed people was just a very unpleasant side effect. The AK on the other hand is very deliberate and premeditated. -Olivia Grey From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Nov 19 02:01:26 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 02:01:26 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Norris In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46761 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Gail Bohacek" wrote: > > Bboy also Mentioned: > > >As a side note: I don't think seeing a basilisks eyes will kill > >you. You have to be held in it's gaze. > > Er...Moaning Myrtle died in the bathroom just by looking directly > at the basilisk's eyes... > > -Gail B. bboy_mn ammends: A minor techincality, Moaning Myrtle didn't die because she looked AT the basilisk's eye, she died because she looked INTO them. I can see your eyes (from an angle or from the side) without you seeing me. It's in that sense that I mean you have to be lock in it's gaze. Also, since Harry could close his eyes and not be killed or petrified, the basilik seeing you, doesn't kill you. By the same token, you can see the basilisk and the basilisk's eyes without dying, but when your eyes lock together, when you gaze into each other's eye, get ready to greet your ancestor. It was just a thought. bboy_mn From Audra1976 at aol.com Tue Nov 19 02:04:01 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:04:01 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] How did Ginny open the chamber? Message-ID: <86.2375c396.2b0af611@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46762 In a message dated 18/11/2002, sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry) writes: > How exactly did sweet little Ginny open the Chamber of Secrets? We > know she was under Tom Riddle's control, but you have to be a > Parselmouth to tell the sink to open up. I'm not sure I can accept > that Tom made her speak Parseltongue; all evidence seems to imply that > Parselmouth is a gift from birth, not something you can learn. Me: Not all the evidence implies that. Dumbledore told Harry that Voldemort transferred some of his power to him, which could have resulted in Harry's ability to speak Parseltongue. So we have Dumbledore's word as evidence that Parselmouth ability can be passed on to another in this way, not just by birth. Tom's comment about "pouring a little of [his] soul back into [Ginny]" through the diary is just as valid an explanation for Ginny speaking Parseltongue as the explanation Dumbledore gave Harry. Of course, this could be one of the important clues JKR refers to in CoS. Pre-Voldemort Tom Riddle has transferred some of his power to Ginny, just as Voldemort transferred some of his power to Harry. This means Ginny and Harry now both have increased magic ability and Tom Riddle/Voldemort's special talents. Sherry again: > What if the Weasleys are decendants of Slytherin? And > what if Lucius Malfoy knows it? > > Now, of course, my proposition implies that the Weasleys would also be > Parselmouths, or at least Ginny, without anybody in the family ever > noticing this about each other or themselves. But what if there is > something special about the *7th* child of a Slytherin decendant? Me again: Seven has always been considered a lucky number. It is an old superstition that the seventh son of a seventh son would have supernatural abilities (well, Ginny is a seventh child, not a seventh son, and we don't know if either Mr. or Mrs. Weasley might have had 6 siblings either). This is an interesting theory all the same. There is no evidence that Tom Riddle didn't have any older siblings. In fact, we might be able to make a case for it. Mrs. Riddle never told Mr. Riddle that she was a witch up until she was pregnant with Tom Jr. Why did she choose to tell him then? Maybe she had a guilty conscience, but it sounds like she was in denial. If Tom Jr. had older siblings (6 older siblings, as Sherry would have it) and one of them turned 11, that incriminating Hogwarts letter would have come. Well, she would have had to own up to it then. That's when they have the big blow out, and poor Mrs.Riddle is left a single witch with child. Hmm..if that is the case, several of Tom's siblings might have been at Hogwarts with him, and they didn't even know, unless they taken very far away. Sherry: > As a side note, there has been speculation that the Weasleys' Muggle > relation (Molly's cousin, the accountant? Alas, my SS is also at > home) is a link to red-headed Lily. If so, that also puts Lily in > Slytherin's line. Me for the last time: That is one of the big theories surrounding Lily. And what can you say? It's possible. Almost anything is possible at this point, and JKR has said we will learn something important about Lily's past in the next book. I kind of hope Harry and Ginny aren't cousins or something though. How will Ginny feel if it turns out she's had a crush on her cousin for the past 3 years? Eew. Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Nov 19 02:20:42 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 02:20:42 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Assassin!Snape's Next Victim (WAS Re: TBAY - Redemption) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46763 "Marina, you've got to help me!" Marina looks up from her annotated copy of Kant's "Logic" to find herself facing a very agitated George. "What is it?" she asks. George fidget's nervously. "I've been talking to Cindy..." "That'll teach ya," Marina mutters. George blinks confusedly. "What?" "Nothing." Marina pats the seat next to her. "Sit down, George, take a deep breath. What did Cindy say to you?" "Well..." George sits down. "She's been arguing that Snape will have to do something majorly dramatic and nasty in order to convince Voldemort of his loyalty. She even had a scenario all prepared, look: --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > We know that Snape is proficient at dueling. We > know Snape showed up at Hogwarts knowing a lot of Dark Curses. We > know Snape was ruthless enough to join the DEs in the first place. > It sure seems reasonable that Snape had to do some awful things when > he was a DE. We know there will be a war in the next books. And, > George. . . . we know that war is not pretty, and people sometimes > have to do awful things in war. For the common good, you know. > > "Oh, Snape won't enjoy being the instrument of Karkaroff's death ?- > either by leading Karkaroff to slaughter in an ambush for > Voldemort's amusement, or by pulling the trigger himself. But Snape > will do it. Snape will do it for the greater good. "Hmm." Marina examines Cindy's scenario carefully. "Yes, that does sound plausible." George looks startled. "It does?" "Absolutely. It's plausible, it's angsty and dramatic, it would certainly go a long way toward convincing Voldemort. I don't have a problem with it at all." "B-but," George stammers, "isn't it kind of... *bangy*?" Marina bursts out laughing. "Is that what you were worried about?" She pats George on the head. "Come on! What's bangy about Karkaroff's death? Nobody cares about him. He's a coward, a self- serving turncoat and a general slimeball. Not the characters -- even his students don't show any concern when he disappears; all they do is bitch about how he made them do all the rowing when they were travelling to Hogwarts by ship. Not the readers -- when was the last time you saw a post arguing that Igor Karkaroff is ever so sexy? How often does he gets shipped? Does anyone ever speculate about his childhood or wonder how he got to be the way he is? Are there any Karkaroff redemption scenarios floating around the Bay?" George shakes his head. "I don't think so." "Exactly! If Snape likes Karkaroff, then he's the only one in the entire Potterverese who does. His assassination would be a great plot twist, and an excellent vehicle for exploring Snape's character. But it certainly doesn't bang. On the other hand, if Snape is, or was, friends with him..." Marina pauses and taps the book in her lap with a meaningful squint. George's face lights up. "If Snape was friends with him, yet kills him, then he is once again going against his desires and naturall inclanations to do what his duty requires him to do for Dumbledore's cause!" he exclaims triumphantly. "Just as he did when he betrayed his other DE friends all those years ago." "Yep. It all fits." Marina ruffles George's hair affectionately. "Don't let Cindy get you all worked up over nothing, dear, she's always seeing bangs when there's nothing there. Now, let me get back to my book. If you're hungry, there's chili in the PRESSURE COOKER, but remember to wash the dishes by hand afterwards." Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Nov 19 02:55:24 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 02:55:24 -0000 Subject: Greetings! and Rita Skeeter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46764 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Summer, aka The Friendly Frolicker" wrote: CAROLYN" > > Anyways, I was driving along today, when a thought suddenly occured > to me. Rita Skeeter. She was mentioned a lot in GoF, but at the > end of the book, there was really no point. I mean, why did we go > through the book reading about the awful things she was writing > about Harry in the Daily Prophet, if at the end the only result was > that Hermione caught her as a beetle? ... ... ... > > ... ... ... I wonder if Rita Skeeter will turn up in the next book, > angry at Hermione for catching her and seeking revenge... I could > definetly see her being evil too, but who knows? I'd like to hear > what other people think of this though. > BBOY_MN: Someone brought up something that had totally escaped me, Hermione caught Rita in Harry's hospital room. Rita heard everything that was said. She know about Voldemort's return, she heard what Fudge said, she knows that Dumbledore sent Snape on a secret mission, she know about Sirius Black, and she know he is an animagus Black Dog. She know TOO MUCH both for her own good and for everyone elses. OK, Hermione is going to make her promise to keep her 'pen' quiet for a year. But this is Rita Skeeter, can a liar like her be trusted at her word? I think not. Rita is a trouble maker, and when she comes back, she is going to make trouble of massive proportion. This woman is nuts, she has no conscience, she really scares me. It's possible she may get Sirius sent back to Azkaban and that is the new magical place that Harry will visit. He will go to visit Sirius. She may get Snape killed. This woman is dangerous; Hermione should have just squashed her like the bug that she is. No, no, no, we have definitely not seen that last of Rita Skeeter. -end bboy_mn, this part- > ...edited.... > Carolyn continues: > And one other thing... how do I get this to change my name? It says > at the top of my screen "From: Summer, aka the Friendly Frolicker" > which is pretty stupid and which I want to change... any wise > intelligent people know how to help? > > Alright, I'm done. Have a nice day. > > Peace, > Carolyn bboy_mn: Try editing your Yahoo User Profile and see if you can change it there. That usually where all the displayed information comes from. http://profiles.yahoo.com/Summer2999 -end bboy_mn- From boredchocobo at attbi.com Tue Nov 19 01:18:28 2002 From: boredchocobo at attbi.com (Chocobo) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:18:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] AK the most dangerous curse ? References: Message-ID: <004b01c28f69$911cff90$82647d18@Compuhon> No: HPFGUIDX 46765 From: yyssww2001 >> I've been reread the GOF, and it bothers me .. why are there only 3 most forbidden curses, one of which is avada kedavra. In GOF was told that Wormtail blowed up a dozen of muggles with one curse and it seems to me a more dangerous curse than AK. Or do I misinterpret it ?, because i'm not from an english speaking country.<< Well, I don't know anything for sure here, just guessing... it does seem like that spell (some kind of explosion) does have a stronger effect, but maybe it also has some drawbacks to it. Maybe a spell with such a big effect takes a long time to set up, maybe it's hard to aim the effects, maybe it's easy to avoid if you're a wizard. AK is instant death and can be done quickly, so that could definitely be more dangerous. "Chocobo" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kaityf at jorsm.com Tue Nov 19 03:38:06 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:38:06 -0600 Subject: Hanging Mrs. Norris Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021118213623.0127b058@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46766 I searched diligently through the archives and couldn't find this question discussed. If it has been, I apologize. The discussion of the basilisk and its victims has reminded me of something I wondered when I finished reading CoS the first time (or maybe the 2nd or...). We know that Mrs. Norris has been petrified and we know that Nick has been petrified and that some students have been petrified. By the time we get to the end of the book, we know how each one managed to end up petrified rather than dead. All that makes sense. What does not make sense to me is that Mrs. Norris is found *hanging*. Am I misremembering that? How did that happen? We learn that she no doubt became petrified (but not dead) because she did not look directly at the basilisk, but rather saw its reflection in the water that was on the floor. Okay. So did that happen before or after she was hanging on the wall? I'm not sure that matters so much as how she got up on that wall. I have to assume that she did not put herself up there nor could that have been part of the effect of looking at the basilisk. I mean no one else got stuck on a wall after encountering the basilisk. They ended up lying on the floor. So could someone have hung Mrs. Norris on the wall for some reason and then Mrs. Norris, because of her position on the wall, saw the basilisk's reflection in the water? Or could she have been lying petrified on the floor and then someone hung her up afterwards? Who did it and why? That's never mentioned by anyone in the book, is it? If it is, I can't remember. Any ideas? (Or corrections) Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Nov 19 03:45:30 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:45:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hanging Mrs. Norris In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021118213623.0127b058@mailhost.jorsm.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021118213623.0127b058@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: <200211182245300387.07AA47F9@mail.indigosky.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46767 Given that the simplest explanation seems to be the right one, there are two possibilities. 1) Tom Riddle himself was able to reach out and hang Mrs. Norris as he'd just opened the Chamber, and had a burst of strength. In my opinion, this is less likely, since Tom Riddle explains he was not strong enough to manifest until way, way later on. 2) Ginny did it herself under Tom's orders, after the Basilisk had already petrified Mrs. Norris. But this does beg an interesting question. The ensorcelled Ginny controlled by Tom -- was she immune to being petrified like Tom seems to also have been? Indigo *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 11/18/2002 at 9:38 PM Carol Bainbridge wrote: >I searched diligently through the archives and couldn't find this >question >discussed. If it has been, I apologize. > >The discussion of the basilisk and its victims has reminded me of >something >I wondered when I finished reading CoS the first time (or maybe the 2nd >or...). We know that Mrs. Norris has been petrified and we know that Nick >has been petrified and that some students have been petrified. By the time >we get to the end of the book, we know how each one managed to end up >petrified rather than dead. All that makes sense. > >What does not make sense to me is that Mrs. Norris is found *hanging*. Am >I misremembering that? How did that happen? We learn that she no doubt >became petrified (but not dead) because she did not look directly at the >basilisk, but rather saw its reflection in the water that was on the >floor. >Okay. So did that happen before or after she was hanging on the wall? I'm >not sure that matters so much as how she got up on that wall. I have to >assume that she did not put herself up there nor could that have been part >of the effect of looking at the basilisk. I mean no one else got stuck on >a >wall after encountering the basilisk. They ended up lying on the floor. > >So could someone have hung Mrs. Norris on the wall for some reason and >then >Mrs. Norris, because of her position on the wall, saw the basilisk's >reflection in the water? Or could she have been lying petrified on the >floor and then someone hung her up afterwards? Who did it and why? That's >never mentioned by anyone in the book, is it? If it is, I can't remember. >Any ideas? (Or corrections) > >Carol Bainbridge >(kaityf at jorsm.com) > >http://www.lcag.org > > > >________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > >Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! >http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > >Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material >from posts to which you're replying! > >Is your message... >An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to >HPFGU-Announcements. >Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. >Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. >None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. >Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- >mods at hpfgu.org.uk > >Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com >____________________________________________________________ > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From callistar at hotmail.com Tue Nov 19 04:00:27 2002 From: callistar at hotmail.com (callie603) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 04:00:27 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle/Voldemort bloodline Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46768 Hello All, This is my first post. I have checked the VFAQ, and can't find the answer to this disturbing thought. Please let me know if this has come up before, and if so, please accept my sincere apologies. Slytherin wanted to get rid of anyone who wasn't "pure-blood." However, as I understand it, Tom Riddle (Voldemort) was only half- blood as his mom was a witch and his dad was a muggle. Is this an inconsistency? Is he really the heir of Slytherin? Also, if the basilisk is trained to kill "mudbloods," isn't his "blood" kind of "muddy?" Why should it listen to him? Just a thought... Callie603 From ashfae at technicaldetails.org Tue Nov 19 04:12:16 2002 From: ashfae at technicaldetails.org (ashfaex) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 04:12:16 -0000 Subject: Avada Kedavra, Ginny & Tom Riddle, and various basilisk things Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46769 First post by me. *gryn* Nice to meet y'all. Regarding Avada Kedavra: From: Chocobo >>Well, I don't know anything for sure here, just guessing... it does >>seem like that spell (some kind of explosion) does have a stronger >>effect, but maybe it also has some drawbacks to it. Maybe a spell >>with such a big effect takes a long time to set up, maybe it's hard >>to aim the effects, maybe it's easy to avoid if you're a wizard. AK >>is instant death and can be done quickly, so that could definitely be >>more dangerous. I suspect that the reason Avada Kedavra is one of the Unforgivable Curses is because it's unblockable (unless you're Harry Potter). Other curses could cause death, but they would probably do so in an indirect manner, and indirect things have a chance of being blocked. For example, if a wizard casts a spell to call lightning down upon another wizard, the second wizard theoretically has a chance of shielding or protecting himself somehow. Peter Pettigrew's notorious curse was probably such an indirect spell; I don't think it was ever made clear if he actually blow up the water main, or if that was a story told to appease the Muggles. But regardless, there would at least be a chance to shield oneself, through a magical shield or Apparation or somesuch. Avada Kedavra offers no chance for such protection; essentially the wizard casting the spell is pointing at you and stating "Die!", and the next instant, you do. (this is of course just a theory, but it seems to hold water) Regarding Ginny: From: Audra >>Of course, this could be one of the important clues JKR refers to in >>CoS. Pre-Voldemort Tom Riddle has transferred some of his power to >>Ginny, just as Voldemort transferred some of his power to Harry. This >>means Ginny and Harry now both have increased magic ability and Tom >>Riddle/Voldemort's special talents. While I agree that Tom Riddle must have transferred some of his powers and abilities into Ginny in order for Ginny to open the Chamber of Secrets/control the basilisk/etc, I think it unlikely that she retains any such abilities now. Tom was feeding off of Ginny's soul, using the book, and this was killing her; but when the book was destroyed, all the "soul" (for lack of a better word) that had been transferred from Ginny into Tom was returned to her. It's logical that any powers she gained from Tom would have been destroyed along with the book. The Harry/Voldemort scenario is not quite comparable; first of all because Tom Riddle was only a memory, whereas Voldemort was alive and kicking; and second of all because the Tom Riddle memory was completely destroyed, and Voldemort is _still_ alive and kicking. (it would be interesting if, when Voldemort is ultimately and finally destroyed, Harry lost his ability to speak Parseltongue) Regarding Mrs. Norris: from: Carol Bainbridge >>So could someone have hung Mrs. Norris on the wall for some reason >>and then Mrs. Norris, because of her position on the wall, saw the >>basilisk's reflection in the water? Or could she have been lying >>petrified on the floor and then someone hung her up afterwards? Who >>did it and why? That's never mentioned by anyone in the book, is it? >>If it is, I can't remember. Any ideas? (Or corrections) I would suspect that it was Tom Riddle, acting through Ginny, who decided to hang up "the Squib's cat" as a warning. (though that leads me to wonder how Tom knew Filch was a Squib; it's unlikely that Ginny knew, as Filch's nature doesn't seem to be common knowledge) I suspect that whenever the basilisk struck, Ginny/Tom was almost certainly present and controlling its actions. This would explain how the basilisk knew which students to attack. One piece of evidence for this is that Ginny wrote in her diary that she had no memory of where she was when the students were attacked. From: Indigo >>But this does beg an interesting question. The ensorcelled Ginny >>controlled by Tom -- was she immune to being petrified like Tom seems >>to also have been? I imagine that the basilisk, after hearing Ginny/Tom speak Parseltongue, recognized her as an ally, and thus knew not to attack her. That, or Tom simply ordered the basilisk not to look at him. Here's a curious thought: the fact that none of those attacked died seems almost wildly coincidental, given the the extreme deadliness of the basilisk and the undeniably evil intentions of Tom Riddle. Is it possible, do you think, that a small part of Ginny was aware of what was going on? While she couldn't fight back entirely, perhaps she tried to make sure that the basilisk only attacked students when those students had a means of defense handy. Given the number of Muggleborns at Hogwarts, it's astonishing that the basilisk just _happened_ to attack Justin while Nick was nearby, or that it went after Colin Creevy, who's never seen without his camera. (not sure how Hermione and Penelope Clearwater fit into that theory though) "ashfaex" From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Nov 19 04:45:16 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:45:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Avada Kedavra, Ginny & Tom Riddle, and various basilisk things In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200211182345160934.07E101EC@mail.indigosky.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46770 No, he didn't actually blow up a water main. That /was/ just a story told to give the muggles something to rationalize what happened. It was just something that caused a big enough explosion to kill 12 people. It could've been a spontaneous combustion spell, but that really makes muggles look silly, considering they were told it was a /water/ main. So it might've just been pure concussive force. Indigo who seems to be delurkively pensive tonight. *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 11/19/2002 at 4:12 AM ashfaex wrote: >First post by me. *gryn* Nice to meet y'all. > >Regarding Avada Kedavra: > >From: Chocobo >>>Well, I don't know anything for sure here, just guessing... it does >>>seem like that spell (some kind of explosion) does have a stronger >>>effect, but maybe it also has some drawbacks to it. Maybe a spell >>>with such a big effect takes a long time to set up, maybe it's hard >>>to aim the effects, maybe it's easy to avoid if you're a wizard. AK >>>is instant death and can be done quickly, so that could definitely >be >>more dangerous. > >I suspect that the reason Avada Kedavra is one of the Unforgivable >Curses is because it's unblockable (unless you're Harry Potter). Other >curses could cause death, but they would probably do so in an indirect >manner, and indirect things have a chance of being blocked. For >example, if a wizard casts a spell to call lightning down upon another >wizard, the second wizard theoretically has a chance of shielding or >protecting himself somehow. Peter Pettigrew's notorious curse was >probably such an indirect spell; I don't think it was ever made clear >if he actually blow up the water main, or if that was a story told to >appease the Muggles. But regardless, there would at least be a chance >to shield oneself, through a magical shield or Apparation or somesuch. >Avada Kedavra offers no chance for such protection; essentially the >wizard casting the spell is pointing at you and stating "Die!", and >the next instant, you do. (this is of course just a theory, but it >seems to hold water) > > >Regarding Ginny: > >From: Audra >>>Of course, this could be one of the important clues JKR refers to in >>>CoS. Pre-Voldemort Tom Riddle has transferred some of his power to >>>Ginny, just as Voldemort transferred some of his power to Harry. >This >>means Ginny and Harry now both have increased magic ability and >Tom >>Riddle/Voldemort's special talents. > >While I agree that Tom Riddle must have transferred some of his powers >and abilities into Ginny in order for Ginny to open the Chamber of >Secrets/control the basilisk/etc, I think it unlikely that she retains >any such abilities now. Tom was feeding off of Ginny's soul, using the >book, and this was killing her; but when the book was destroyed, all >the "soul" (for lack of a better word) that had been transferred from >Ginny into Tom was returned to her. It's logical that any powers she >gained from Tom would have been destroyed along with the book. The >Harry/Voldemort scenario is not quite comparable; first of all because >Tom Riddle was only a memory, whereas Voldemort was alive and kicking; >and second of all because the Tom Riddle memory was completely >destroyed, and Voldemort is _still_ alive and kicking. (it would be >interesting if, when Voldemort is ultimately and finally destroyed, >Harry lost his ability to speak Parseltongue) > > >Regarding Mrs. Norris: > >from: Carol Bainbridge >>>So could someone have hung Mrs. Norris on the wall for some reason >>>and then Mrs. Norris, because of her position on the wall, saw the >>>basilisk's reflection in the water? Or could she have been lying >>>petrified on the floor and then someone hung her up afterwards? Who >>>did it and why? That's never mentioned by anyone in the book, is it? >>>If it is, I can't remember. Any ideas? (Or corrections) > >I would suspect that it was Tom Riddle, acting through Ginny, who >decided to hang up "the Squib's cat" as a warning. (though that leads >me to wonder how Tom knew Filch was a Squib; it's unlikely that Ginny >knew, as Filch's nature doesn't seem to be common knowledge) I suspect >that whenever the basilisk struck, Ginny/Tom was almost certainly >present and controlling its actions. This would explain how the >basilisk knew which students to attack. One piece of evidence for this >is that Ginny wrote in her diary that she had no memory of where she >was when the students were attacked. > >From: Indigo >>>But this does beg an interesting question. The ensorcelled Ginny >>>controlled by Tom -- was she immune to being petrified like Tom >seems >>to also have been? >I imagine that the basilisk, after hearing Ginny/Tom speak >Parseltongue, recognized her as an ally, and thus knew not to attack >her. That, or Tom simply ordered the basilisk not to look at him. > > >Here's a curious thought: the fact that none of those attacked died >seems almost wildly coincidental, given the the extreme deadliness of >the basilisk and the undeniably evil intentions of Tom Riddle. Is it >possible, do you think, that a small part of Ginny was aware of what >was going on? While she couldn't fight back entirely, perhaps she >tried to make sure that the basilisk only attacked students when those >students had a means of defense handy. Given the number of Muggleborns >at Hogwarts, it's astonishing that the basilisk just _happened_ to >attack Justin while Nick was nearby, or that it went after Colin >Creevy, who's never seen without his camera. (not sure how Hermione >and Penelope Clearwater fit into that theory though) > >"ashfaex" > > > > >________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > >Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! >http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > >Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material >from posts to which you're replying! > >Is your message... >An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to >HPFGU-Announcements. >Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. >Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. >None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. >Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- >mods at hpfgu.org.uk > >Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com >____________________________________________________________ > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From alicit at aol.com Tue Nov 19 04:46:07 2002 From: alicit at aol.com (alicit at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:46:07 EST Subject: AK the most dangerous curse? / Abracadabra? Message-ID: <164.1749fb74.2b0b1c0f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46771 This is a question that bugged me since the moment I read it in the pages of the book. I can even come up with some things that are worse than the outright killing of someone, and I'm not as morbidly screwed up as the dark Wizards of the Potterverse. true, the unblockability (like my new word?) of the Avada Kedvarda curse is pretty bad, but still, I would rank the cruciatus above it, especially considering what it did to Neville's parents. Also, there are many curses that a person cannot block against. Hexes, which have been mentioned in the books, are cast from afar by concentrating on a person, and would be very hard to block unless you were paranoid like Moody. Even though there has been no mention of VooDoo in the books, it probably does exist in the potterverse, and some of the things done with voodoo dolls are much worse than the outright killing of someone, especially since the victims of Avada Kedavra do not seem to be in horrendous pain, like with the Cruciatus curse. Now, I know I am not the first to say this, but isn't Avada Kedvada sound a whole lot like the abracadabra we are all used to hearing? It took me so long to stop myself from thinking abracadabra when I read it. Has anyone welse noticed this? Or am I just crazy? -Scheherazade [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Tue Nov 19 06:17:32 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:17:32 -0000 Subject: interHouse socializing/Cindy'slatestBang/Basilisk'sVictims/DM'smarks/Kneazle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46772 Rachel wrote: << I've always kind of hoped (even though there is no canon to suggest this) that there is a room, besides the great hall, where all of the houses could mix (although Slytherin would probably not have participated). >> We saw that students from all Houses mixed at the Duelling Club (Lockhart's one abortive meaning). I feel sure that there are other clubs, even tho' we don't see them in canon because Harry doesn't attend them. One thing Hogwarts has no shortage of is rooms! Clubs smaller than the Duelling Club could meet in smaller rooms than the Great Hall, so more than one club could meet at the same time. Cindy wrote: << Snape knows exactly what is coming, and he can't look Karkaroff in the eye knowing that he'll be forced to kill Karkaroff soon. >> No. I see that it would be terribly angsty for poor Severus, but no. Whatever Snape is doing, Dumbledore knows about it -- has already discussed it with him: "Severus," saod Dumbledore, turning to Snape, "you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready... If you are prepared..." ("The Parting of the Ways"). And Dumbledore would NEVER encourage the cold-blooded murder of any Being, no matter how sleazy. That would be MUCH darker than MAGIC DISHWASHER paints him, and we already have people explaining that MAGIC DISHWASHER is impossible because it requires Dumbledore to be much too grey. bugaloo37 wrote: << The non-muggle-born victims-Moaning Myrtle, Mrs. Norris and Nearly-headless Nick- >> There is NO EVIDENCE that Myrtle isn't Muggle-born, and marginal evidence to the contrary is how Myrtle's death was described by Draco: "The last time the Chamber was opened, a Mudblood died." ("Marginal" because Draco only knows what his father told him, and his father wasn't there either.) There is NO EVIDENCE that Nick isn't Muggle-born ... in fact, for all we know so far (four novels, two Comic Relief books, two movies, several interviews), Nick might be a Muggle! FANTASTIC BEASTS indicates that Muggles can become werewolves, so maybe Muggles can become ghosts. The Fat Friar said that Hufflepuff was "my old House, you know", but I don't recall Nick ever mentioning that he had ever been a student at Hogwarts. As for Mrs. Norris, she may not be a Muggle, but she is surely not a witch: she's a CAT. "The Squib's cat". "ashfaex" wrote: << (though that leads me to wonder how Tom knew Filch was a Squib; it's unlikely that Ginny knew, as Filch's nature doesn't seem to be common knowledge) >> Maybe Filch already was the caretaker when Tom Riddle was a student, already taking joy in catching and punishing naughty students, and Tom found out that he was a Squib, maybe blackmailed him about it by threatening to tell everyone if Filch didn't forget ever having seen Tom out after curfew. VJH wrote: << Why's Mrs. Norris petrified(sp.)? Why petrify a cat? Is she a threat to the plan? >> Maybe Ginny wrote in the Diary about Mrs. Norris helping Filch hunt out misbehaving students, and Tom decided that the fewer snoops in the castle, the better for his plans. Or it could have been an accident: poor kitty was in the wrong place at the wrong time, just trying to do her job of guarding the castle. Monika wrote: << And since when he's so interested in his son's achievements at DADA lessons? Wasn't he going to send Draco to Durmstrang, to let him learn "proper stuff", i.e. Dark Arts, not Defence against them? >> Well, I think anyone who plans to hang around with people who practise the Dark Arts ought to know how to Defend against Dark Arts, or else be totally vulnerable to any attack from his associates. draco382 wrote: << I know Crookshanks is supposed to be "half-kneazle" but I have no idea what that is. Is it from Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them? >> Yes, Kneazles are in FB. For a quicker answer: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/bestiary_h-m.html#Kneazle From kaityf at jorsm.com Tue Nov 19 06:24:49 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 00:24:49 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hanging Mrs. Norris In-Reply-To: <200211182245300387.07AA47F9@mail.indigosky.net> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021118213623.0127b058@mailhost.jorsm.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20021118213623.0127b058@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021118234109.0127f870@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46773 Carol (me) said (among other things): >So could someone have hung Mrs. Norris on the wall for some reason and >then Mrs. Norris, because of her position on the wall, saw the basilisk's >reflection in the water? Or could she have been lying petrified on the >floor and then someone hung her up afterwards? Who did it and why? Indigo replied: >Given that the simplest explanation seems to be the right one, there are >two possibilities. > >1) Tom Riddle himself was able to reach out and hang Mrs. Norris as he'd >just opened the Chamber, and had a burst of strength. In my opinion, this >is less likely, since Tom Riddle explains he was not strong enough to >manifest until way, way later on. I agree. This doesn't seem at all likely. >2) Ginny did it herself under Tom's orders, after the Basilisk had already >petrified Mrs. Norris. > >But this does beg an interesting question. The ensorcelled Ginny >controlled by Tom -- was she immune to being petrified like Tom seems to >also have been? It also strikes me as a really lucky coincidence to find Mrs. Norris in the right place at the right time in order to see that she's attacked by the basilisk. Ginny doesn't have all day to get this job done. I assume she has classes to go to. She wasn't missed all day, was she? (I don't remember.) She has to be careful of the timing when she paints the message on the wall. Painting the message has to take a while. The hallway is obviously a place students use in between classes. So is she hanging (no pun intended) around with the basilisk waiting for Mrs. Norris to show up so she can hang her up to emphasize her message? She's a first year and it's early in the year, so how much magic can she know to get Mrs. Norris to come to her? The other possibility is that Ginny was taking advantage of a situation. There's a petrified cat lying on the floor and you (if you're Ginny) decide to hang it up to emphasize the message you are painting on the wall. Then again, if that's true, how conscious is Ginny of her behavior? I had been under the impression that she didn't know what she was doing and didn't even remember the things she had done. What kind of instructions could Tom have given her that would allow her to take advantage of such a situation? Maybe I just keep thinking about these things too late at night and I'm too tired to think straight about them. From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Nov 19 06:30:25 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 01:30:25 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hanging Mrs. Norris In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021118234109.0127f870@mailhost.jorsm.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021118213623.0127b058@mailhost.jorsm.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20021118213623.0127b058@mailhost.jorsm.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20021118234109.0127f870@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: <200211190130250205.0841439B@mail.indigosky.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46774 On 11/19/2002 at 12:24 AM Carol Bainbridge wrote: >Carol (me) said (among other things): > > >So could someone have hung Mrs. Norris on the wall for some reason and > >then Mrs. Norris, because of her position on the wall, saw the basilisk's > >reflection in the water? Or could she have been lying petrified on the > >floor and then someone hung her up afterwards? Who did it and why? > >Indigo replied: >>Given that the simplest explanation seems to be the right one, there are >>two possibilities. >> >>1) Tom Riddle himself was able to reach out and hang Mrs. Norris as he'd >>just opened the Chamber, and had a burst of strength. In my opinion, >this >>is less likely, since Tom Riddle explains he was not strong enough to >>manifest until way, way later on. > >I agree. This doesn't seem at all likely. > >>2) Ginny did it herself under Tom's orders, after the Basilisk had >already >>petrified Mrs. Norris. >> >>But this does beg an interesting question. The ensorcelled Ginny >>controlled by Tom -- was she immune to being petrified like Tom seems to >>also have been? > >It also strikes me as a really lucky coincidence to find Mrs. Norris in >the >right place at the right time in order to see that she's attacked by the >basilisk. Ginny doesn't have all day to get this job done. I assume she >has classes to go to. She wasn't missed all day, was she? (I don't >remember.) I don't believe she was missed all day, no. She was at classes at least part of the time. She has to be careful of the timing when she paints the >message >on the wall. Painting the message has to take a while. Not necessarily. But that does beggar the question: "where'd she get the blood/red paint?" The hallway is >obviously a place students use in between classes. So is she hanging (no >pun intended) around with the basilisk waiting for Mrs. Norris to show up >so she can hang her up to emphasize her message? She's a first year and >it's early in the year, so how much magic can she know to get Mrs. Norris >to come to her? Tom Riddle has her in his power, though -- and Tom Riddle was what, a fifth or sixth year? You can't be a fourth year and be a prefect like Riddle was. But who knows what he used to command Ginny or Mrs. Norris. Does Cruciatus work on cats? >The other possibility is that Ginny was taking advantage of a >situation. There's a petrified cat lying on the floor and you (if you're >Ginny) decide to hang it up to emphasize the message you are painting on >the wall. Then again, if that's true, how conscious is Ginny of her >behavior? I had been under the impression that she didn't know what she >was doing and didn't even remember the things she had done. Ginny was sort of dimly aware of it -- that's why she freaked out and tried to toss out the diary, which ended up offending Moaning Myrtle because she threw it into Myrtle's toilet. What kind of >instructions could Tom have given her that would allow her to take >advantage of such a situation? > >Maybe I just keep thinking about these things too late at night and I'm >too >tired to think straight about them. > I get the impression that Tom sort of possessed Ginny rather than told her what to do, and then sat back for her to do it. He put her mind to sleep and then was Tom Riddle in Ginny's body doing his own dirty work with her as his vehicle. Indigo From mooyoo21 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 19 06:19:06 2002 From: mooyoo21 at hotmail.com (Rachel Van Raan-Welch) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 01:19:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Yule Ball Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46775 >From: "Alina" >Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:19:27 -0500 > > > My question stems from an arguement my sister and I had. She was re- > > reading the chapter on the Yule Ball, and made a comment about the > > Yule-ball-to be in Year 5. At this point, I made some form of a rude > > comment about her intelligence and stated that the Yule Ball only > > happens in years in which the TriWizard Tournament takes place. > >There's one point I don't see brought up neither in this email nor in the >response. It could be that the Ball was instituting in order for Hogwarts >students to socialize with foriegn students? I hope this hasn't already been answered, but I found the page that explains it: In the US paperback, page 386, McGonnagall says, "The Yule Ball is approaching - a traditional part of the Triwizard Tournament and an opportunity for us to socialize wiht out foreign guests. Now, the ball will be open only to fourth years and above - although you may invite a younger student if you wish..." hope that helps :) -rachel _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Tue Nov 19 06:41:57 2002 From: chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia=20Chrysshallie?=) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:41:57 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hanging Mrs. Norris In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021118213623.0127b058@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: <20021119064157.36799.qmail@web10402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46776 --- Carol Bainbridge wrote: <> Me: No. Definitely not. No one knew about the basilisk yet, so anyone who did this would expect someone to find Mrs. Norris not petrified. Given the uncanny ability of Mrs. Norris to communicate with Filch, I don't think any student would ever consider doing it. Think of the punishment Filch would give! <> Me: IMO, Ginny hung her after she (Mrs. Norris) was petrified. A cat lying on the floor is unlikely to be noticable, especially in a large crowd coming out of the great hall. But hung, well, that certainly attract attention! And there would be no mistake that the cat was a basilisk's victim, not merely being stampeded by a large crowd of students! --- vincentjh wrote: Why's Mrs. Norris petrified(sp.)? Why petrify a cat? Is she a threat to the plan? Me: Yes she is a threat. Ginny must have told Tom that Mrs. Norris is a threat to anyone being somewhere they should not be. Tom did not want Ginny to be caught wondering around. Colin was attacked in the middle of the night. If Mrs. Norris was still around, Ginny had quite a good chance of being caught. Although I wonder...when Justin/Nick was petrified, everyone was supposed to be in class (the only class cancelled was second year Hufflepuff/Gryffindor herbology). How come Ginny was not in class? Vinnia http://www.yahoo.promo.com.au/hint/ - Yahoo! Hint Dropper - Avoid getting hideous gifts this Christmas with Yahoo! Hint Dropper! From ashfae at technicaldetails.org Tue Nov 19 08:09:59 2002 From: ashfae at technicaldetails.org (ashfaex) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:09:59 -0000 Subject: Avada Kedavra, Abracadabra, Mrs. Norris, and blood Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46777 from: Scheherazade >>Also, there are many curses that a person cannot block against. >>Hexes, which have been mentioned in the books, are cast from afar by >>concentrating on a person, and would be very hard to block unless you >>were paranoid like Moody. But these hexes do not kill outright. They might immobilize or inconvience a person, or even cause extreme pain, but they don't solely kill in the way that Avada Kedavra does. There's still at least a _chance_ that you could block it, or that someone else could interfere, or more importantly that the effects of the curse could be undone. As for the relative morality of Avada Kedavra vs. Cruciatus and the like, that's a matter of opinion, methinks. >>Now, I know I am not the first to say this, but isn't Avada Kedvada >>sound a whole lot like the abracadabra we are all used to hearing? It >>took me so long to stop myself from thinking abracadabra when I read >>it. Has anyone welse noticed this? Or am I just crazy? Nope, you're not the first. I have an interesting book entitled The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter: A Treasury of Myths, Legends, and Interesting Facts, written by one David Colbert. It has this to say on the subject of Avada Kedavra: "...Although J.K. Rowling invents most of her spells and curses entirely from her imagination, the Avada Kedavra curse derives from a phrase in ancient middle Easten language called aramaic. That phrase, abhadda kedhabhra, meaning "disappear like this word," was used by ancient wizards to make illnesses disappear. However, there's no proof it was ever used to kill anyone. The phrase is one likely origin of the magical word abracadabra. Now just part of a magician's entertaining chatter, that word was once used by doctors. Quintus Serenus Samonicus, a Roman physician who lived about A.D. 200, used it as a spell to make fever vanish..." (Colbert, pgs. 17-18) It continues, but you get the idea. =) The Colbert is a great book, by the way; fun and interesting read, lots of details about the mythological bases for some of JKR's ideas. Nifty stuff. From: Carol Bainbridge >>It also strikes me as a really lucky coincidence to find Mrs. Norris >>in the right place at the right time in order to see that she's >>attacked by the basilisk. Ginny doesn't have all day to get this job >>done. I assume she has classes to go to. She wasn't missed all day, >>was she? (I don't remember.) She has to be careful of the timing when >>she paints the message on the wall. Painting the message has to take >>a while. The hallway is obviously a place students use in between >>classes. So is she hanging (no pun intended) around with the basilisk >>waiting for Mrs. Norris to show up so she can hang her up to >>emphasize her message? She's a first year and it's early in the year, >>so how much magic can she know to get Mrs. Norris to come to her? You forget, the first message and attack happened during the Halloween feast. Ginny had a great deal of time in which to open the chamber and paint the message, as everyone was up in the Great Hall (including, probably, Filch). Given that Mrs. Norris has been said on many occasions to have an uncanny ability to know when someone is in a place they shouldn't be in, and cats don't have much to do with Halloween feasts, it's not surprising that she came by Ginny. A student lingering in a corridor instead of attending a Hogwarts Feast is certainly suspicious, and would attract attention. I doubt Ginny needed to call Mrs. Norris, and I doubt that killing Mrs. Norris was originally part of the plan; Ginny/Tom just put her to good use once she was there. From: Indigo >>Not necessarily. But that does beggar the question: "where'd she get >>the blood/red paint?" Pretty sure it's stated that it was blood, in which case I'd bet it was from the roosters that Ginny killed earlier on. Ashfae (forgot to sign my name before; sorry Elf-type folks! *sheepish gryn*) From sugarkadi at aol.com Tue Nov 19 05:27:50 2002 From: sugarkadi at aol.com (sugarkadi at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 00:27:50 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Animagus? Message-ID: <9.280bdcd.2b0b25d6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46778 Hey! this is something I've been bothered about for some time. I've heard that JKR said in many interviews that Harry won't become an animagus like his dad. Am I wrong to assume that that means he'll become an animagus of a different animal? Becomes her wording seems very specific. However, I've never actually found the interview, though I've looked many times. Could someone find a link to the interview or interviews where JKR says this? (A lot of sites say that she revealed this info in "several" interviews.) Of course, if in some interview she outright said he won't be an animagus, then this discounts my theory completely.... ~Katey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kaityf at jorsm.com Tue Nov 19 16:08:30 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:08:30 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Norris In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021119095513.0127aff8@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46779 >From: Carol Bainbridge > > >>It also strikes me as a really lucky coincidence to find Mrs. Norris > >>in the right place at the right time in order to see that she's > >>attacked by the basilisk. Ashfae replied: >You forget, the first message and attack happened during the Halloween >feast. Ginny had a great deal of time in which to open the chamber and >paint the message, as everyone was up in the Great Hall (including, >probably, Filch). Given that Mrs. Norris has been said on many >occasions to have an uncanny ability to know when someone is in a >place they shouldn't be in, and cats don't have much to do with >Halloween feasts, it's not surprising that she came by Ginny. Carol (me): You're right: I did forget that about Mrs. Norris. How could I forget that? Ashfae again: >...and I doubt that killing Mrs. Norris was >originally part of the plan; Ginny/Tom just put her to good use once >she was there. Carol: This part still gives me a bit of a problem. Exactly how has Tom enchanted Ginny to do what he wants? Is he in her mind somehow? I had always been under the impression that he has simply charmed her to do what he wants her to do. But unless he is somehow in her head, how does he know that Mrs. Norris is there petrified, ready to be hung on the wall? Unless this was part of the original plan or unless Tom is somehow aware of what is going on, how would he know to tell Ginny to hang the cat on the wall? And if he did know what was going on, why did he need Ginny to write to him to tell him other things that were going on? Wouldn't he know every time he charmed her? And if he doesn't know what's going on and Mrs. Norris is not part of the plan, how would Ginny know to hang the cat up? Does that mean that even under Tom's spell, Ginny has some free will? (Which leads to a rather scary idea that Ginny is somehow more evil than we think she is or is becoming evil due to the influence of Tom's charms). Even if Ginny doesn't have free will as we would think of it, how could she make the decision on her own to make use of Mrs. Norris? Am I forgetting something else, this time about Tom's charming of Ginny? Carol From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Nov 19 11:11:06 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:11:06 -0000 Subject: 6 older siblings/Masons: Conspiracy? In-Reply-To: <86.2375c396.2b0af611@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46780 --- Audra wrote: > Seven has always been considered a lucky number. It is an old superstition > that the seventh son of a seventh son would have supernatural abilities > (well, Ginny is a seventh child, not a seventh son, and we don't know if > either Mr. or Mrs. Weasley might have had 6 siblings either). This is an > interesting theory all the same. Me: Not except for the Malfoy insult of *all* Weasleys having lots of kids (as a family tradition) That would mean that Mr Arthur Weasley has lots of siblings (indeed, as many as 6 older ones). That sort of thing has some basis in truth... and we do know that there's one Uncle Billius who did this and another uncle who did that... Many relatives indeed. (Oddly enough, only Weasleys we see at Hogwarts, are Ron's siblings. Where are his *cousins*, all wizarding-- unless his father is indeed the youngest and all Ron's cousins were out before Ron begun?) > There is no evidence that Tom Riddle didn't have any older siblings. In > fact, we might be able to make a case for it. Mrs. Riddle never told Mr. > Riddle that she was a witch up until she was pregnant with Tom Jr. Why did > she choose to tell him then? Maybe she had a guilty conscience, but it > sounds like she was in denial. If Tom Jr. had older siblings (6 older > siblings, as Sherry would have it) and one of them turned 11, that > incriminating Hogwarts letter would have come. Well, she would have had to > own up to it then. That's when they have the big blow out, and poor > Mrs.Riddle is left a single witch with child. Hmm..if that is the case, > several of Tom's siblings might have been at Hogwarts with him, and they > didn't even know, unless they taken very far away. One sibling turned 11 - and Tom was still enwombed? Eldest could be 11, then have twins 10 years, a mid-child 9 years, twins 8 years, and the youngest only to be born -- the elder siblings would be all out of Hogwarts before little Tom would get his letter. Also, we don't know how many of the kids were squips(if that's the correct term for Muggle-Witch kid without magic). Still, it is clear that "True heir of Slytherin" had to be Parselmouth. Though, it might be that the others simply never met any snakes-- just look at Harry: First Snake he ever sees is in Zoo, and he had no idea of being a Parselmouth. Supposedly, any witch/wizard *could* be, they just never realised it (unless they were baddies or the famous Harry Potter). Another clue in CoS: The Masons. A thought just came to me-- Masons. Masonic Lodge or something like that? At least, I presume, those two could be members of a society whose existence is known but no one knows what they do, and were accused of conspiracy against government 200 years ago but is for charity by secret means. Mentioned in GoF as the Top Secret Department of Ministry... (I think that Mr and Mrs Mason *are* wizarding... Mrs Mason wasn't afraid of the Owl, but that their cover was blown to so-very-much-Muggle- Dursley). And my guess on what this secret organisation does: keeps wizards and Muggles as separated as they can by making Muggles not to believe in magic and that Wizards make rules that keep Muggles from knowing they exist. Also that they made up all about UFOs to hassle Muggles who aren't fooled by weather balloons, and for those who don't go into that so easily, by giving out a *government-hides- things* conspiracy, all including "advanced technology" -- and no Muggle even thinks of magic... Oh, and to add: Vernon Dursley is applying for membership... -- Finwitch From kela_bit at netvision.net.il Tue Nov 19 11:36:11 2002 From: kela_bit at netvision.net.il (Klei) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:36:11 +0200 Subject: Howlers and the ones who get them Message-ID: <3DDA222B.1090900@netvision.net.il> No: HPFGUIDX 46781 I hope this question wasn't discussed before... When someone in */Hogwarts /*gets a howler, why does he open it rught in the middle of the main hall? Why doesn't he run away with it to a more secluded area? /*tacks a small "Hi, I'm Hermione2164 and I'm new! Love this group!" or something similar onto the bottom of a more substantial post*/ Hi, I'm *Katsmall the Large* and I'm new! Love this group! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Katsmall the Large* kela_bit at netvision.net.il [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alicit at aol.com Tue Nov 19 16:11:23 2002 From: alicit at aol.com (Scheherazade) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 16:11:23 -0000 Subject: Abracadabra/Avada Kedvarda Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46782 Ashfaex quotes me... >>Also, there are many curses that a person cannot block against. >>Hexes, which have been mentioned in the books, are cast from afar by >>concentrating on a person, and would be very hard to block unless you >>were paranoid like Moody. ...Then replies: "But these hexes do not kill outright. They might immobilize or inconvience a person, or even cause extreme pain, but they don't solely kill in the way that Avada Kedavra does. There's still at least a _chance_ that you could block it, or that someone else could interfere, or more importantly that the effects of the curse could be undone." Hm, well, I guess this might go into the morality question, but there were a few hexes that are pretty much worse than just killing someone. I remember a folk tale that affected me in particular, that was about a girl who was cursed to have every person she loved die. Again, it's a morality issue, but, I think the common morals of the wizarding comunity would come down harder against planned brutality and torture more than a single murder. We're given a hint to this when we're shown how Sirius is feared by the general wizarding community. He did not use Avada Kedavra, but a different spell, yet was considered one of the most vile dark wizards of their time. And thanks for the information on the origins of abracadabra! I knew it was used to get rid of illness, but not much else. Ashfaex also says: "As for the relative morality of Avada Kedavra vs. Cruciatus and the like, that's a matter of opinion, methinks." Ah, too true. However, if I was in the wizarding community, I would question how horrible they were in relation to one another, so I can't imagine that noone would in the Potterverse. -Scheherazade From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Nov 19 16:44:18 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 16:44:18 -0000 Subject: Howlers and the ones who get them In-Reply-To: <3DDA222B.1090900@netvision.net.il> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46783 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Klei wrote: > I hope this question wasn't discussed before... > When someone in */Hogwarts /*gets a howler, why does he open it right > in the middle of the main hall? Why doesn't he run away with it to a > more secluded area? > > *Katsmall the Large* bboy_mn ponders the question: Unless I'm mistake, once you receive it, you have seconds to open it, and the longer you wait the worst it gets. At one point (sorry don't have a reference) Neville gets a Howler and does try to run for it. He makes it to the hallway out side the Great Hall before it explodes (literally) and his grandmother's voice, louder than ever, is still heard by all the students. my best quess. bboy_mn From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Nov 19 17:10:48 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:10:48 -0000 Subject: CoS theories Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46784 (the following includes quite a bit of speculation): I am convinced that Lucius and the Diary plotted together, but in typical evil-conspiracy fashion, with neither revealing to the other their actual objectives. I am sure that if Lucius Malfoy had ever had the slightest inkling that Tom could escape from the Diary and act autonomously he would never, ever have let it out of his control. If I were Tom I would tell Lucius that I could only be liberated by some immensely complicated dark magical rite, and if only Lucius would agree to perform this service for me, I would happily further Lucius's ends of discrediting Arthur Weasley and removing Albus Dumbledore as Headmaster. Lucius would agree, of course with no intention whatever of carrying out his promise. As for who Lucius planned to have replace Dumbledore, I think it would have been Karkaroff--Draco says they're acquainted. If Lucius can't send Draco to Durmstrang, why not bring Durmstrang to Hogwarts? I don't believe Lucius wants the job himself. Paid employment would be far beneath the dignity of a Malfoy. I also think Lucius *did* loiter around Flourish and Blotts to meet Ginny. Lockhart's appearance was, I am sure, the reason that Hermione picked that Wednesday to get her books, and Lucius could well know that Molly's a Lockhart fan as well. It would also have been prudent for Molly to owl ahead, tell the bookstore when she was coming and have the books set aside for her. So there are several reasons Lucius could have learned or guessed she'd be there. If that failed, there was always the platform at Kings Cross. Now the basilisk does not simply roam the school--it's starving, and left to its own devices it would surely have devoured its victims. It is under Riddle!Ginny's control and has been ordered not to look at her. The petrification is *intentional*. Riddle's initial goal is to scare the Muggleborn out of the school, not to get the place shut down. The plan works--when panic starts to spread, everyone assures Neville that the purebloods are in no danger. Not only that, since none of the information on basilisks ever mentions the power to petrify, no one, not even Dumbledore, can guess what's responsible. So Myrtle's death was also an accident. Either Tom didn't know she was there, or he thought she'd be protected by her glasses. But they didn't have that power, or else she pushed them up to wipe her eyes, saw the basilisk, and the glasses fell back into place as she died. It is likely that Tom assumed she'd been successfully petrified and was just as shocked to find out she was dead as everyone else. The pool of water serves as a defense while Ginny writes the message (in basilisk blood?) It was convenient of Myrtle to flood the passage, but Ginny could have done so herself. The monster angles its gaze into the water, thus assuring that anyone who approaches will be petrified rather than killed. But since all the ghosts are at the Death Day party and everyone else is at the Halloween feast, the halls are patrolled only by Mrs. Norris, who thus becomes the first victim. Ginnymort hangs her on the wall. The next attack is Colin Creevy, who probably *told* Ginny he was going to try and sneak up to see Harry at night. He always has his camera with him, so the basilisk was ordered to wait until Colin had the camera in front of his face to look at him. Once again, it's night and the halls are empty...or perhaps not. Maybe Nick saw Ginny on her way to the Chamber, and that's why he became the next victim. A ghost who can travel through walls and is especially protective of Gryffindors is a serious obstacle to Tom's plans. Justin was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Once Ginny recovers the Diary, Tom is angry and more determined than ever to lure Harry into the Chamber. So he orders Ginny to the library to prepare a clue--the torn page with the word 'pipes' in Hermione's handwriting. (Hermione herself would sooner bathe in bubotuber pus than deface a library book.) Then Hermione herself rushes in (see how fortune favors Lord Voldemort!). Almost everyone else is out watching Quidditch when Ginnymort ambushes Penelope and Hermione near the library and stuffs the crumpled page into Hermione's clenched hand (If her hand hadn't been clenched, it could have gone into a pocket.) It must have been highly frustrating for Tom that Harry didn't find the clue for weeks. But Tom is stymied, by Dumbledore's suspension of all things. If the monster attacks again, that will clear Hagrid and his protector Dumbledore, which is hardly what Lucius wants. Tom dare not defy Lucius openly until he is strong enough to leave the Diary, or Lucius will simply repossess it, and him. In fact, when Ginny is taken, Lucius rushes to the school at once, arriving only shortly after the Weasleys and Dumbledore himself. But of course it's too late. Pippin From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Nov 19 17:32:47 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 12:32:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Howlers and the ones who get them In-Reply-To: <3DDA222B.1090900@netvision.net.il> References: <3DDA222B.1090900@netvision.net.il> Message-ID: <200211191232470672.0A9FAF9D@mail.indigosky.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46785 On 11/19/2002 at 1:36 PM Klei wrote: >I hope this question wasn't discussed before... >When someone in */Hogwarts /*gets a howler, why does he open it rught in >the middle of the main hall? Why doesn't he run away with it to a more >secluded area? My guess is that the Howlers don't like to be kept waiting and have a *very* short fuse before they decide they've been ignored and then detonate. Indigo From monzaba at poczta.onet.pl Tue Nov 19 17:46:01 2002 From: monzaba at poczta.onet.pl (monika_zaboklicka) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:46:01 -0000 Subject: How did Ginny open the chamber? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46786 In a message posted on Tue Nov 19, 2002 12:39 am "Sherry Garfio" wrote: > How exactly did sweet little Ginny open the Chamber of Secrets? Good question. There are, I think, three possibilities: 1. Riddle taught her, as Sherry writes, enough Parseltongue to say "open up" and made her run away just after the entry got open (if he didn't, Ginny most probably would have ended a first victim in 50 years); 2. He had full control over Ginny, spoke Parseltongue through her lips and controlled Basilisk through her - a bit unlikely, because Ginny would had been much more affected by the experience than she seems; and second, the attacks would had been much more accurate (i.e. deadly) 3. Ginny's part in opening the chamber was only to leave the diary in the bathroom, write messages on the wall and leave. True, Riddle clearly suggested that he got powerful enough to leave the diary just hours before Harry found him in the Chamber, but I'm not taking the bastard's word on anything. - Sherry again: > What if the Weasleys are decendants of Slytherin? And > what if Lucius Malfoy knows it? Unlikely, I think. Riddle is clearly described as the only descendant of Slytherin, though it's a bit impropable that Salazar had only one descendant after 1000 years. Still, Riddle was sorted to Slytherin House, and we do not know about any Weasley being anything other than Gryffindor. - Sherry: > why Lucius waited until this year to plant the diary. What if he was > waiting for both Harry and a Weasley child to be at Hogwarts? Any > Weasley would do, but Ron is too close to Harry to risk > using him, which leaves Ginny. Harry didn't meet any Weasleys before he went to Hogwarts, so Malfoy could not figure out that he'd be such a bossom friend of Ron's. Still, I agree that Ginny was an easier target. - Sherry: > If it's only the 7th child, then that would explain why Parselmouth is > such a rare gift: it would only occur in one bloodline, and only when > someone in that bloodline has at least 7 children. That would rather make Parseltongue nonexistent, not rare. - Sherry: > What do we know > about Tom Riddle's family? But do we know if they had > any other children? If they did, given the conditions of orphanages > many years ago (which I know about only from reading Dickens), 7 > siblings could easily have been separated, and Tom, being an infant at > the time, would never have known they existed. Well, Dickens was long dead before Riddle was born. If young Thomas had 6 elder siblings and Riddles put them all in an orphanage just because their father chose to get rid of his wife, I'm quite sure we'd heard more about the elder Riddles that they were "most unpopular", "snobbish and rude". One can pretend that his wife and child died at birth, but it's impossible to get rid of 6 kids without rising considerable controversy. - Sherry > As a side note, there has been speculation that the Weasleys' Muggle > relation (Molly's cousin, the accountant) is a link to red-headed Lily. Weasleys do not pretend that their squib cousin does not exist. They keep enough touch with him to know what his job is, most likely they know his family as well. If there was such a connection, Molly would have certainly told Harry long ago that he an Ron are related. - Sherry > Okay, you may now commence in blasting my theory. I hope it wasn't too bad :) Monika From Audra1976 at aol.com Tue Nov 19 17:49:51 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 12:49:51 EST Subject: 6 older siblings/Masons: Conspiracy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46787 Very original theory about the Masons, Finwitch! I like it! This theory about the Wealeys being Slytherin's heirs is believable as well. I bet that just chafes Lucius Malfoy's caboose if it's true. But how would it fit into the grand scheme of things? If the Potters are actually Gryffindor's heirs, then (dare I say it?) the marriage of Harry and Ginny would bring things full circle. ;) It's a bit contradictory though to my personal theory of the Potters being Slytherin's heirs. I believe that Voldemort's ultimate goal since his Hogwarts days has been to achieve immortality. That's what drives him. The diary was an early attempt. His reason for needing Harry dead somehow fits into this scheme. Possibly killing off his other relatives is part of some ritual to achieve immortality (sort of like the Jet Li movie, "The One," but without the parallel universes). But then Voldemort found out about the Philosopher's Stone and the Elixir of Life. When Harry has the stone at the end of the book Voldemort tells him, "Don't be a fool. Better save your own life and join me or you'll meet the same end as your parents." He goes on to say, "Give me the Stone unless you want [your mother] to have died in vain." Both of these quotes imply that once Voldemort has the Stone, and therefore the Elixir of Life, and therefore immortality, that Voldemort will no longer need to kill Harry. If that is true, then it prooves that killing Harry is necessary to Voldemort's plan to achieve immortality. The idea that James, and therefore Harry, are relatives of Voldemort has been used to explain why Voldemort did not want to kill Lily. He asked her to stand aside. He told Harry, "Your mother needn't have died." But there has to be more to it than that. Since when does Lord Voldemort warn some inconsequential mudblood to stand aside, and years later express what could be construed as regret about killing her ("Your mother needn't have died.")? Lily must have been more than just unnecessary to Voldemort's goal. She had to represent something to Voldemort, something that was worth giving one last chance to before he had to kill her. Could the reason be connected to why Riddle's name sounded like a forgotten uncle to Harry in CoS? If not only was James related to Voldemort's mother, but Lily somehow related to Voldemort's father, could that have meant something to Voldemort? But why would it? He hated his father. Maybe Voldemort knew that a Riddle had gotten Lily's mother pregnant and left her too, and he felt some sort of kinship with Lily. This who paragraph is just stream of consciousness, but maybeit will spark an idea in someone else. Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From monzaba at poczta.onet.pl Tue Nov 19 18:16:22 2002 From: monzaba at poczta.onet.pl (monika_zaboklicka) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:16:22 -0000 Subject: CoS theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46788 Pippin wrote: > Now the basilisk does not simply roam the school--it's starving, > and left to its own devices it would surely have devoured its > victims. The petrification is *intentional*. Riddle's > initial goal is to scare the Muggleborn out of the school, not to > get the place shut down. I like it! The theory certainly explains one thing that was puzzling me ever since I read CoS - why the attacks were so ineffective? Still, after reading such a perfect explanation, my twisted brain refuses to accept it wholly. Poor me! All the later attacks might, as Pippin says, be meant to petrify, not to kill. Pippin's reasoning is perfect, but I have my doubts about Myrtle's death. The surest way to ensure Myrtle was not fatally hurt by Basilisk was to wait with opening the Chamber until she left the bathroom. Sure, most propably Riddle wasn't a frequent visitor to a girls' bathroom, he might not know that Myrtle used to spend her days there, but checking all cabins seems to be such a basic precaution. Besides, Myrtle was the only victim Riddle could not let live. She heard him speak Parseltongue, once revived after petrification, she'd surely tell all to anybody who'd listen. Side note: why nobody asked her ghost? Why Harry and Hermione were the first ones to connect "speaking funny language", Myrtle's death, petrification of several people and messages on the wall? Bad, Dumbledore! Damn bad! In short, I'm still puzzled. Perhaps that's why CoS is my less favourite HP book. Monika From monzaba at poczta.onet.pl Tue Nov 19 18:46:04 2002 From: monzaba at poczta.onet.pl (monika_zaboklicka) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:46:04 -0000 Subject: 6 older siblings/Masons: Conspiracy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46789 Well, this theory implies that Voldemort was actually doing Lily a favour when he said: "Stand aside, stupid girl". Damn nice thing to say to a young mother! The bloke had just killed her beloved husband and had been politely asking her to get out of way, so that he can kill her only child without interferece... "Your mother needn't have died" How nice and sympathetic! Lily Evans stood between her son and death, not making the life easier for Voldemort. I think that now, after 4th book, the words just mean "it's pity she died, the protection she gave you is really annoying, even if it can be used for my favour". And since when Voldemort is showing to have higher feelings? The sob realised it was wrong to kill Myrtle only after he'd learned that he hurt himself - that is, his plans to spend summer outside orphanage. Much as I can symphatize with his hathred for orphanages, I still think that he's a terrorist with no moral or social virtues. Monika --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Audra1976 at a... wrote: > The idea that James, and therefore Harry, are relatives of Voldemort has been > used to explain why Voldemort did not want to kill Lily. He asked her to > stand aside. Since when does Lord Voldemort warn some > inconsequential mudblood to stand aside, and years later express what could > be construed as regret about killing her ("Your mother needn't have died.")? > Lily must have been more than just unnecessary to Voldemort's goal. She had > to represent something to Voldemort, something that was worth giving one last > chance to before he had to kill her. From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Nov 19 18:49:46 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:49:46 -0000 Subject: AK the most dangerous curse ? In-Reply-To: <004b01c28f69$911cff90$82647d18@Compuhon> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46790 YY wrote: > I've been reread the GOF, and it bothers me .. why are there only 3 > most forbidden curses, one of which is avada kedavra. > > In GOF was told that Wormtail blowed up a dozen of muggles with one > curse and it seems to me a more dangerous curse than AK. Or do I > misinterpret it ?, because i'm not from an english speaking country. > > -YY- A few things: the technical definition of AK, Imperio and Cruciatus is "unforgivable". They are curses that, if used in a human being, will take you directly to Azkaban, without even requiring a judge. This is a legal definition, one I think has included other curses in ages past. It does not say that these are the most dangerous (althought they probably are). The question is, of course, what is so bad about those three that makes them unforgivables. Without going into that right now, lets compare AK with the explosion one used by Peter. There is one particular thing about AK that was especifically pointed out: it's unstoppable. No matter how powerful you are, if you're hit with an AK, you're dead (with the notable exception of Harry and Voldemort, that is). There is nothing you can do to stop it. This implies that other curses can be stopped. In fact, we see Harry practicing a shield charm in GoF, just before the 3rd task. Now, the shield he was using wasn't very powerful (only for minor curses, IIRC), but that sort of implies that there are *other* shields which will stop more powerful magic. Which means that there might be one that defends you from magical explosions. There is extra canon for that one, too: Sirius must have been using it, and so must have Peter, since they weren't scratched by an explosion that killed a dozen people around them (especially Peter, who was in the *centre* of it). Chocobo answered: > Well, I don't know anything for sure here, just guessing... it does seem like that spell (some kind of explosion) does have a stronger effect, but maybe it also has some drawbacks to it. Maybe a spell with such a big effect takes a long time to set up, maybe it's hard to aim the effects, maybe it's easy to avoid if you're a wizard. AK is instant death and can be done quickly, so that could definitely be more dangerous. > > "Chocobo" As I said before, I feel that all (ofensive) spells & curses have probably a defence charm (in form of a shield, for example) that will allow you to ignore them even if they hit you. All, that is, except AK (which we know is unstoppable) and, IMO, the other two unforgivables: Cruciatus and Imperio (both can be resisted, but none "stopped" before they affect you, at least so far). Which means that, in a duel, anything short of an unforgivable can fail, if your oponent happens to have the correct shield up. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Nov 19 19:14:14 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:14:14 -0000 Subject: CoS theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46791 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "monika_zaboklicka" > The surest way to ensure Myrtle was not fatally hurt by Basilisk was o wait with opening the Chamber until she left the bathroom. Sure, most propably Riddle wasn't a frequent visitor to a girls' bathroom, he might not know that Myrtle used to spend her days there, but checking all cabins seems to be such a basic precaution. Besides, > Myrtle was the only victim Riddle could not let live. She heard him speak Parseltongue, once revived after petrification, she'd surely tell all to anybody who'd listen. > Side note: why nobody asked her ghost? Why Harry and Hermione were the first ones to connect "speaking funny language", Myrtle's death, petrification of several people and messages on the wall? Bad, > Dumbledore! Damn bad! > Ohh, you're talking about the man I love. Let me see if I can salvage Dumbledore's reputation here. Killing people in the wizarding world won't silence them, unless perhaps you memory charm them first. The ghost remembers, so unless you can be sure there's not going to be a ghost, killling doesn't work. Also, since the entrance to the chamber is in the bathroom, Riddle must have been in and out quite a bit before Myrtle died. There were multiple attacks. Riddle probably just got tired of waiting for her to come out that day, and decided he might just as well go in. Trouble is, Myrtle didn't remember anything useful. All she saw was two yellow eyes. All she heard was a boy speaking a funny language, which could have been Giantish, perhaps. Since Aragog escaped, nobody knew that he didn't have two yellow eyes. It was, as Riddle says, his word against Hagrid's. Riddle was lucky, or perhaps he meant all along to let Aragog get away. As Ron says, nobody would believe there were two monsters in the castle at the same time. Without Aragog, there was no way for Dumbledore to prove Hagrid's innocence--and I am sure that no matter how much Dumbledore begged him, Hagrid would never turn Aragog in. I don't think anyone in Dippet's day except Dumbledore really wanted to credit the "Heir of Slytherin" business--it would have meant that one of the Founders of the school was a seriously evil wizard, and after all, the chamber could never be found. Much more comforting to think that it was all a hoax by a disturbed child, and the monster had never come from the Chamber at all. Pippin From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Nov 19 19:18:26 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:18:26 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle/Voldemort bloodline/basilisk/heir bussiness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46792 Callie603 wrote: > Slytherin wanted to get rid of anyone who wasn't "pure-blood." > However, as I understand it, Tom Riddle (Voldemort) was only half- > blood as his mom was a witch and his dad was a muggle. Is this an > inconsistency? Is he really the heir of Slytherin? Also, if the > basilisk is trained to kill "mudbloods," isn't his "blood" kind > of "muddy?" Why should it listen to him? > > Just a thought... > > Callie603 Mudblood and halfblood are not the same thing (mudblood: both parents muggles; halfblood: parents wizards, but a muggle within the last n generations, where n is open to suggestions, but probably between 2 and 7). Besides, it's not uncommon that a defender of "purity of blood" is not pure of blood himself: look at Hitler, and how badly he represented the Aria (sp?) race. Also, in the line of him being the heir of Slytherin, you'll see that in the list many people are very busy drawing up descendances for Slytherin, managing to make everyone and their little cousin the true heirs of slytherin (my count, so far, is Harry, all Weasleys, Dumbledore and 6 siblings of Tom Riddle, apart from Tom himself, which we know is the last descendant of Slytherin, and I'm not even reading those posts). Do of those theories what you will, but I have one of my own: the heir of Slytherin is anyone who can speak parsel, since that is all you need to get into the chamber and control the basilisk. We know, in fact, that parsel is not exclusive to Slytherin's family: Slytherin searched for students which could also speak it. Although we have not been told if he ever found one, I assume that he knew what he was doing and in fact people that weren't related to him could also have the gift. Tom is the "true" heir (in his eyes) because, apart from being a heir (since he speaks parsel), he's also the last descendant (how he chacked that, I can't even begin to imagine. Elementary family tree building will tell you that after 1000 years anyone could carry blood from a given individual). I don't really think the basilisk is trained for anything at all. I keep picturing Tom!Ginny (that is, Ginny's body being controled by Tom) following the basilisk and giving it commands about who to attack. Thus, on Halloween they are met by Mrs. Norris (and her ability to find any student that's doing mischief) and is promptly stoned. Tom!Ginny hangs her body and paints the message and returns the basilisk to the chamber. On the other ocations, they roam the castle (the normally empty parts) until they meet someone. They attack and hide again. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From kela_bit at netvision.net.il Tue Nov 19 15:00:54 2002 From: kela_bit at netvision.net.il (Klei) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:00:54 +0200 Subject: Voldemort - descendent or ancestor Message-ID: <3DDA5226.5060605@netvision.net.il> No: HPFGUIDX 46794 From the Scholastic site, transcript of chat with J.K.Rowling: Question: Harry Potter for grownups again! Is Voldemort the last remaining ancestor of Slytherin, or the last remaining descendent of Slytherin? J.K. Rowling responds: Ah, you spotted the *deliberate *error. Yes, it should read "descendent." That's been changed in subsequent editions. (Keep hold of the "ancestor" one, *maybe it'll be valuable one day!* I've seen threads about it "may being valueable one day", but did anyone notice that the error is deliberate? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Katsmall the Wise kela_bit at netvision.net.il [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kela_bit at netvision.net.il Tue Nov 19 16:26:37 2002 From: kela_bit at netvision.net.il (Klei) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:26:37 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Norris References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021119095513.0127aff8@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: <3DDA663D.3040000@netvision.net.il> No: HPFGUIDX 46795 Carol Bainbridge wrote: > This part still gives me a bit of a problem. Exactly how has Tom > enchanted > Ginny to do what he wants? Is he in her mind somehow? I had always been > under the impression that he has simply charmed her to do what he > wants her > to do. But unless he is somehow in her head, how does he know that Mrs. > Norris is there petrified, ready to be hung on the wall? [...] > Carol I have two ideas about that. 1. I believe that /*Tom */has taken complete control over /*Ginny*/, and taken over her body and feels and sees everything she feels and sees. Thus, he want upstairs, petrified the */Mrs. Norris/* and hung her up. 2. If Tom simply charmed Ginny to do that, then the plan was to go, petrify Mrs. Norris and hang her. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Katsmall the Wise kela_bit at netvision.net.il [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kela_bit at netvision.net.il Tue Nov 19 16:57:32 2002 From: kela_bit at netvision.net.il (Klei) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:57:32 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Howlers and the ones who get them --- Two more questions about howlers --- Question about messages References: Message-ID: <3DDA6D7C.7010101@netvision.net.il> No: HPFGUIDX 46796 Steve wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Klei wrote: > > I hope this question wasn't discussed before... > > When someone in */Hogwarts /*gets a howler, why does he open it right > > in the middle of the main hall? Why doesn't he run away with it to a > > more secluded area? > > > > *Katsmall the Large* > > bboy_mn ponders the question: > > Unless I'm mistake, once you receive it, you have seconds to open it, > and the longer you wait the worst it gets. At one point (sorry don't > have a reference) Neville gets a Howler and does try to run for it. He > makes it to the hallway out side the Great Hall before it explodes > (literally) and his grandmother's voice, louder than ever, is still > heard by all the students. > > my best quess. > > bboy_mn I don't remember that occuring in the books...I'm pretty sure he only told them about that when Ron got his howler. However, Ron could still dunk the howler in a glass of water, or even sit on it to reduce the volume. Why did he not do that? Another question that comes into mind is who gets howlers? Only students? I mean, an adult witch or wizard could get a howler and that would be quite imbarrasing... And question number three: Why would Ron's mother send a howler and shout to everyone that Ron's dad put a spell on the car? Wouldn't that get Mr. Weasley into even more trouble? And a last but not least question, about the messages I send: Why is HTML content removed? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Katsmall theWise kela_bit at netvision.net.il [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kela_bit at netvision.net.il Tue Nov 19 18:50:48 2002 From: kela_bit at netvision.net.il (Klei) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:50:48 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Ginny open the chamber? References: Message-ID: <3DDA8808.8030308@netvision.net.il> No: HPFGUIDX 46797 monika_zaboklicka wrote: > - Sherry: > > If it's only the 7th child, then that would explain why Parselmouth > is > > such a rare gift: it would only occur in one bloodline, and only > when > > someone in that bloodline has at least 7 children. > > That would rather make Parseltongue nonexistent, not rare. > That would also make Harry a non-Parseltongue-speaker because he's an only child. Katsmall the Wise kela_bit at netvision.net.il From kela_bit at netvision.net.il Tue Nov 19 19:26:58 2002 From: kela_bit at netvision.net.il (Klei) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:26:58 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: AK the most dangerous curse ? References: Message-ID: <3DDA9082.2020002@netvision.net.il> No: HPFGUIDX 46798 Grey Wolf wrote: > There is one particular thing about AK that was especifically pointed > out: it's unstoppable. No matter how powerful you are, if you're hit > with an AK, you're dead (with the notable exception of Harry and > Voldemort, that is). Note that Voldemort was not directly hit by Avada Kedabra, only by a rebound, which is bound to be less effective and less powerful, meaning that he didn't acctually survive Avada Kedabra. > Sirius must have been using it, and so must have Peter, since they > weren't scratched by an explosion that killed a dozen people around > them (especially Peter, who was in the *centre* of it). IMO, this curse, the explosion one, didn't kill the wizards not because of a shield but simply because they are wizards. Katsmall the Wise From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 19 19:36:47 2002 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:36:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Did Tom go to school with James? In-Reply-To: <004001c2bfe2$ae2b90c0$f52aa8c0@freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: <20021119193647.77057.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46799 --- Lisa wrote: > My question is kind of in the title (sorry if it's vague though) we know > James, Lupin, Sirius, Peter and Severus were all at school at the same > time, we also know Hagrid and Tom were at school together. Does anyone > know when Lucius was at school? I wondered if he went to school at the > same time as Tom? Also were Tom and Hagrid at school at the same time as > James and co? Or are we to assume they're older than the others? Does > anyone have any answers? No, they weren't at school together. Tom and Hagrid were in school "fifty years ago", according to Draco about when the Chamber was first opened. (It doesn't necessarily have to be *exactly* fifty, but I think we can assume the 45-55 years range.) James was in school at the same time as Snape, according to Dumbledore, since they were rivals the same way Harry and Draco are. JKR said in an interview that Snape was 35. So, he and James could not have been in school 50 years ago with Tom and Hagrid. :) Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Nov 19 19:44:51 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:44:51 -0000 Subject: Howlers and the ones who get them --- Two more questions about howlers --- Question about messages In-Reply-To: <3DDA6D7C.7010101@netvision.net.il> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46800 Klei wrote: > However, Ron could still dunk the howler in a glass of water, or even > sit on it to reduce the volume. Why did he not > do that? The howlers have been designed to fulfill their purpose. If it was as easy as sitting on them, or throwing water, they wouldn't be that useful, would they? We're taliking about magic here, so if you don't listen to them, they explode. They know if they're being listened, so if you sit on it, you would be sitting on something prone to explode at any moment (not a good idea), and there is nothing in the books that makes us think that water will stop magic - quite the reverse, actually since the Dr. Filibuster fireworks don't need fire: they ignite with humidity. > Another question that comes into mind is who gets howlers? Only > students? I mean, an adult witch or wizard could > get a howler and that would be quite imbarrasing... > > Katsmall theWise We are told by Percy that the MoM received howlers after the Quidditch World Cup fiasco. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From kaityf at jorsm.com Tue Nov 19 19:45:08 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:45:08 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CoS theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021119125958.0319b4e0@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46801 Pippin wrote: > (the following includes quite a bit of speculation): > >I am convinced that Lucius and the Diary plotted together, but in >typical evil-conspiracy fashion, with neither revealing to the other >their actual objectives. I am sure that if Lucius Malfoy had ever >had the slightest inkling that Tom could escape from the Diary >and act autonomously he would never, ever have let it out of his >control. It never made sense to me that Lucius would take this kind of risk. He has to be aware that Voldemort is trying to come back and if he did come back and found Malfoy to be a scheming traitor, he'd not be too kind to Malfoy. And Lucius has to know that. I don't get the impression either that Malfoy is anything more than a spoiled bully, much like his son. I don't see that kind of character vying for power with the most evil, powerful wizard in ages. In any case, even if Lucius is the type of guy to try to take over, there is evidence at the end of GoF that all the death eaters knew that Voldemort left the diary behind purposely to make a come back. When Voldie speaks to the DEs gathered in a circle, he berates them for not having come to his aid during the last 13 years. He says, "They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death?" I suppose this could refer to something else, but it also seems like it could refer to the diary. I've thought for a while now that the DEs knew about that diary. I also believe that Malfoy knew exactly what that diary was for. The thing that doesn't work, though, is that in that same scene in GoF, Malfoy tells Voldie that had he known where Voldie was, he would have gone immediately to help. It seems like that would have been a perfect place to say that he did try to bring him back through the diary. So, if not the diary, what were the steps he took to guard against mortality? And surely Pettigrew, having been Ron's pet in CoS, would have told Voldemort about the diary incident. He did spend quite a bit of time with Voldemort nursing him back to health. It seems highly unlikely that Voldemort wouldn't pump Pettigrew for all the information he could get from him about Harry and Hogwarts. So why is it that Voldemort seems to know nothing about the diary event? Why doesn't Lucius tell him? Even if Lucius did want to use it to his own ends, I just can't believe that Voldemort wouldn't know about it and wouldn't be extremely displeased with Lucius since he'd have to then know that Lucius tried to use the diary for his own purposes. Pippin: >I don't believe Lucius >wants the job himself. Paid employment would be far beneath >the dignity of a Malfoy. I would agree completely with this. I'm not sure he'd try to get Karakoff for headmaster of Hogwarts, though. I'd expect it would be someone less obvious. Pippin: >I also think Lucius *did* loiter around Flourish and Blotts to >meet Ginny. Lockhart's appearance was, I am sure, the reason >that Hermione picked that Wednesday to get her books, and >Lucius could well know that Molly's a Lockhart fan as well. This makes perfect sense, although I don't think we have to suspect that Lucius *knew* Molly was a Lockhart fan. From the way Lockhart is discussed all the time, I would think that it was a good guess that most witches were enamored of Lockhart. Pippin: >It would also have been prudent for Molly to owl ahead, tell the >bookstore when she was coming and have the books set aside >for her. So there are several reasons Lucius could have learned >or guessed she'd be there. If that failed, there was always the >platform at Kings Cross. Again, I don't think we have to add any more to the reasons Lucius guessed Ginny would be at Flourish and Blotts. I think the fact that Lockhart would be there would be enough to assume the Weasley's would be there that day. And you're right about King's Cross. I'm sure someone like Lucius would have a number of contingency plans in place in case the original plan didn't work out. Pippin: >Now the basilisk does not simply roam the school--it's starving, >and left to its own devices it would surely have devoured its >victims. It is under Riddle!Ginny's control and has been ordered >not to look at her. The petrification is *intentional*. Riddle's >initial goal is to scare the Muggleborn out of the school, not to get >the place shut down. While I think this theory is an excellent one and makes some sense, I have to wonder about just how perfectly it all worked out. It seems to me that the timing of looking at the basilisk at just the right time and right way to get petrified and not killed it pretty risky. Also, surely Tom knows that when the petrified people got unpetrified, they would be able to explain what happened to them. And that information would allow Dumbledore and others to figure out what to do. After all, they all know about the legend of the chamber; now they'd have evidence that it is real, not simply legend. So while petrifying people might scare people enough to cause the school to be closed, it would have to be just a temporary thing. Pippin: >Tom dare not defy Lucius openly until he is strong >enough to leave the Diary, or Lucius will simply repossess it, >and him. In fact, when Ginny is taken, Lucius rushes to the >school at once, arriving only shortly after the Weasleys and >Dumbledore himself. But of course it's too late. I just don't see the evidence to suggest that Tom won't defy Lucius or that Lucius would risk making Tom angry with Voldemort still skulking about trying to come back to power. Surely the DEs must know he's trying to regain power after the Quirrelmort episode the year before. As for Lucius appearing so quickly at Hogwarts, I thought that was because he was in a huge rush to get Dumbledore out of there. Carol From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Nov 19 19:52:03 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:52:03 -0000 Subject: AK the most dangerous curse ? In-Reply-To: <3DDA9082.2020002@netvision.net.il> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46802 Klei wrote: > IMO, this curse, the explosion one, didn't kill the wizards not > because of a shield but simply because > they are wizards. > > Katsmall the Wise If the spell used by Peter only affected muggles (and, so far, there is no reason to believe that there are such spells), Peter wouldn't have been able to fake his own death, since he's a wizard. He had to use a spell that could kill him, after all, or else it wouldn't make much sense to use it in the first place. In the line I started above, although we know that wizards are tougher than muggles, being able to survive unscathed punishment that would kill a muggle, this doesn't seem to aply to ofensive spells. AK, Cruciatus and Imperio are equal-oportunities: they affect equally muggles and wizards. All other spells that have been tried in both species have been equally damaging to both (like the memory charm), and in fact, the wizards seem unimpressed by that fact (i.e. they don't mention that "we had to give him a low charge, because he's a muggle" or anything like it), although this could be put down to the deficient knowledge of muggles by wizards. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Tue Nov 19 20:21:21 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:21:21 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Tom go to school with James? References: <20021119193647.77057.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46803 We know that Riddle was at Hogwarts in 1945 (50 years ago from 1995) but that is a very impresise date because there are seven years in hogwarts for all wizarding children. Now, that means that he could have left in 1945, come to hogwarts in 1945 or something in between. (it could have been the date that dumbledore started to have suspicions about him.) Now, Hagrid oviously did not do a very good job at defending himself when accused. This surgests that he was young at the time (and possibuly in a state of shock). This surgests that he was in first or second year when accused and expelled. Furthermore, Riddle would have to have been an older, trusted. student for his claim to have been belived. Now, Snape was 35 years old as of COS/POA (?), therefore he, and james, sirus, et al, were not at school with riddle. I think that canon also mentions that they grew up while voldemort was just starting and left when the terror was at its hight. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Audra1976 at aol.com Tue Nov 19 20:42:02 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:42:02 EST Subject: Did Tom go to school with James? Message-ID: <3b.2fed0b14.2b0bfc1a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46804 In a message dated 19/11/2002 14:28:55 Eastern Standard Time, brighteyes at completely-incomplete.net writes: > Does anyone know when Lucius was at school? I wondered if he went to school > at the same time as Tom? Me: I don't believe it ever mentions in the books whether Lucius even went to Hogwarts or not. He is mentioned in neither Riddle's and Hagrid's time there (about 50 years ago), nor Snape's and the Marauders' time there (which I imagine to be about 20 years ago). It's possible that Lucius slightly older than Snape and the Marauders, say in 6th or 7th year when Snape and the Marauders entered Hogwarts, and didn't have much interaction with them. That would make him in his late 20s when Voldemort was at the height of his power, and in his mid-40s now. It's also possible he went to Durmstrang (he wanted to send Draco there) or even Beauxbaton (Malfoy does sound like a French name). Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Nov 19 20:43:37 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:43:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CoS theories In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200211191543370806.0B4E66B4@mail.indigosky.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46805 On 11/19/2002 at 6:16 PM monika_zaboklicka wrote: >Pippin wrote: >> Now the basilisk does not simply roam the school--it's starving, >> and left to its own devices it would surely have devoured its >> victims. My feeling is that it's a snake. It's been eating mice and rats and possibly students' familiars or heaven forbid, the occasional drunken house elf all this time. I wouldn't say it's been starving, necessarily. The petrification is *intentional*. Riddle's >> initial goal is to scare the Muggleborn out of the school, not to >> get the place shut down. I'd see the petrification as intentional the *first* time Riddle did the chamber, but the second? Somehow I don't think Voldemort [and I am certain the real, disembodied Voldemort was acting through the memory of his sixteen year old self through the diary] would've been content with just scaring the muggleborn. Not when he has killed and tortured muggles for fun during his heyday. I doubt he cared overmuch about attention being drawn to himself either. He's got the typical megalomaniacal tendency to believe he's the most intelligent creature in the world and nobody else is smart enough to figure him out. Besides, if Dumbledore got killed, then Lucius could have his way about putting someone he wanted into Hogwarts. > >I like it! The theory certainly explains one thing that was puzzling >me ever since I read CoS - why the attacks were so ineffective? >Still, after reading such a perfect explanation, my twisted brain >refuses to accept it wholly. Poor me! >All the later attacks might, as Pippin says, be meant to petrify, not >to kill. Pippin's reasoning is perfect, but I have my doubts about >Myrtle's death. >The surest way to ensure Myrtle was not fatally hurt by Basilisk was >to wait with opening the Chamber until she left the bathroom. Sure, >most propably Riddle wasn't a frequent visitor to a girls' bathroom, Wouldn't Riddle -have- to be a frequent visitor to this girls' bathroom since that's where the chamber was, or was the Chamber only opened once to let the Basilisk out, and then it hung out in the pipes until the final showdown with Harry and Tom? >he might not know that Myrtle used to spend her days there, but >checking all cabins seems to be such a basic precaution. Besides, >Myrtle was the only victim Riddle could not let live. She heard him >speak Parseltongue, once revived after petrification, she'd surely >tell all to anybody who'd listen. Excellent point, that is. And even if he hadn't checked the cabins, Myrtle is not exactly a -quiet- cryer, either. >Side note: why nobody asked her ghost? Why Harry and Hermione were >the first ones to connect "speaking funny language", Myrtle's death, >petrification of several people and messages on the wall? Bad, >Dumbledore! Damn bad! Hmmm. Okay, yeah, even I can't come up with a defense for our dear Dumbledore to that one. Unless he was pulling another of his "I knew, and the information would've been given to Harry when it was time" deal. He's been known to do that. The other thing is, that possibly Myrtle was too upset to do more than moan, whine, and bawl at having been asked about her death until Harry [who she has a crush on] is asking. A lot of ghosts in old story and myth are like that. Angry that they're dead, or just refusing to accept/admit it, before they finally give in and settle down into their haunts. From Audra1976 at aol.com Tue Nov 19 20:53:19 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:53:19 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort - descendent or ancestor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46806 In a message dated 19/11/2002 14:29:49 Eastern Standard Time, kela_bit at netvision.net.il writes: > I've seen threads about it "may being valueable one day", but did anyone > notice that the error is deliberate? Calling Voldemort Slytherin's "ancestor" was a DELIBERATE error? So Voldemort's going to use a Super Time Turner to go back and impregnate Salazar's grandmother? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Tue Nov 19 21:23:22 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 16:23:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Tom go to school with James? References: <20021119193647.77057.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008d01c29011$e46ba9a0$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46807 > We know that Riddle was at Hogwarts in 1945 (50 years ago from 1995) but that is a very impresise date because there are seven years in hogwarts for all wizarding children. Now, that means that he could have left in 1945, come to hogwarts in 1945 or something in between. (it could have been the date that dumbledore started to have suspicions about him.) > > Now, Hagrid oviously did not do a very good job at defending himself when accused. This surgests that he was young at the time (and possibuly in a state of shock). This surgests that he was in first or second year when accused and expelled. Furthermore, Riddle would have to have been an older, trusted. student for his claim to have been belived. Unless I'm mistaken, the book points out that "fifity years ago" Riddle was 16 and Hagrid was expelled in his third year, so that makes him 13 or 14 at most. Alina. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 13/11/2002 From sgarfio at yahoo.com Tue Nov 19 19:38:18 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:38:18 -0000 Subject: How did Ginny open the chamber? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46808 In reply to my previous post, Monika wrote: > Riddle is clearly described as the only descendant > of Slytherin, though it's a bit impropable that Salazar had only one > descendant after 1000 years. Still, Riddle was sorted to Slytherin > House, and we do not know about any Weasley being anything other than > Gryffindor. Me: Where is Riddle described as the only descendant? I don't recall, and as you say, I also thought it doubtful that Slytherin would have only one descendant after so many generations, so I just assumed he would have many, although it's possible that only one would be considered his "heir". In many societies, heir status always goes through the first son, or some other defined protocol. I was thinking that maybe the Weasleys come from a different branch, perhaps one that deviated from the ideals that Salazar held dear. As for all of the current Weasleys being Sorted into Gryffindor, in GoF during the Sorting, when the trio are dreading the possibility of having to put up with another Creevey in their house, it is made clear that family members are *not* necessarily sorted into the same house. After so many generations of separation from Salazar himself, I don't see why his descendants - especially if they are from a line that rejected Salazar's ideals many generations back - couldn't be sorted into another house. Riddle shared Salazar's views, and therefore went into Slytherin House. My view of the Sorting Hat is that it doesn't know anything about descent (except in TMTMNBN-1: "Another Weasley - I know just what to do with you!"), it Sorts people based on individual merit. Monika again: > Harry didn't meet any Weasleys before he went to Hogwarts, so Malfoy > could not figure out that he'd be such a bossom friend of Ron's. Me again: True, but during the first year, Voldemort was trying to come back via the Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone. If Lucius was aware of this, which for the sake of arguing my case I'll say that he was, then by using the diary at that point he would have risked messing up that plot. By the time the Stone is destroyed and that avenue is closed to Voldemort, Harry and Ron are bosom buddies, so he uses Ginny. I said before: > If it's only the 7th child, then that would explain why Parselmouth > is > such a rare gift: it would only occur in one bloodline, and only > when > someone in that bloodline has at least 7 children. And Monika retorted: > That would rather make Parseltongue nonexistent, not rare. Now me again: Let me clarify my idea here. I didn't mean to imply that *each generation* in the line had to produce at least 7 offspring to pass on the gift, only that Parselmouth would only occur in that 7th child. In other words, several generations of smaller families could go by, but each would pass on the *potential* for a Parselmouth, until some generation *did* produce 7 children, and that 7th child would be a Parselmouth. Now, 7 children is not an astonishing number, and it was in fact quite common in days gone by for people to have large families. I would say that factors such as infant mortality would have no effect on the gift - even if the 7th child was the *only* one to survive past infancy, that child would still have the gift. So no, Parselmouths would not be nonexistent in the scenario I presented, but they would be rare, much more rare today than in the days when large families were the norm. Monika continued: > Well, Dickens was long dead before Riddle was born. If young Thomas > had 6 elder siblings and Riddles put them all in an orphanage just > because their father chose to get rid of his wife, I'm quite sure > we'd heard more about the elder Riddles that they were "most > unpopular", "snobbish and rude". One can pretend that his wife and > child died at birth, but it's impossible to get rid of 6 kids without > rising considerable controversy. Now me: I didn't mean to imply that Riddle was a contemporary of Dickens; I only mentioned him to illustrate my general ignorance of orphanages (apparently I succeeded too well ;-)). However, I do think of a Dickens-style orphanage when I think of Tom Riddle's childhood. It wasn't that long ago that orphanages made no attempt to keep siblings together, tell kids details of their dead parents' lives, or keep heirlooms with them. Orphans were seen as property with no owner, and treated as such, often suffering great cruelty at the hands of their caretakers. As to the elder Riddles, I imagine a scenario where Tom Sr's parents disliked his wife and disapproved of their marriage. They pretty much disowned him until he came to his senses and left that witch, along with the little whelps she mothered. They never spoke of their grandchildren or their daughter-in-law to their friends and associates, choosing instead to act as if they didn't exist. Nobody would comment on that because nobody would know about their dirty little secret. In short, I see Tom Jr's childhood as nothing but suffering. Nothing short of that could drive him to become Lord Voldemort. His Muggle father caused him so much pain that he devoted his life to vengeance. Once he discovered his Slytherin heritage (at Hogwarts, I imagine), it was inevitable that he would follow in Salazar's footsteps. Audra, who mostly disagreed with my post, nevertheless offered further support on this point, pointing out that an older Riddle child's Hogwarts letter may have been what forced their mother to come clean about being a witch. Thanks, Audra, I didn't catch that one! Monika again: > Weasleys do not pretend that their squib cousin does not exist. They > keep enough touch with him to know what his job is, most likely they > know his family as well. If there was such a connection, Molly would > have certainly told Harry long ago that he an Ron are related. No, they don't pretend he doesn't exist, Ron mentions him to Harry very early in their friendship, IIRC. However, he's very vague about this cousin, which gave me the impression that he's a distant cousin, someone that they just don't have much contact with. I think Ron even mentions where he lives - does anyone have the reference, along with a little UK geography lesson for us Yanks? In large families, it's not uncommon for people to lose track of who is related to whom, especially if they live far apart. Lily in turn could be quite loosely related to the accountant. The point I was trying to make here was that if the Weasleys are Slytherin decendants, and Lily is related to them, however loosely, then there is the connection to Harry. After 1000 years, after all, the family lines would be quite diverse. In any case, this part of my previous post was something that occurred to me while I was composing the post, so I'm not surprised if it doesn't hold water. ;-> In conclusion, I wrote: > > Okay, you may now commence in blasting my theory. And Monika replied: > I hope it wasn't too bad :) > Monika No, it wasn't bad at all, and since I'm not entirely enamored of this theory, I don't have a lot of ego investment in it ;-}. This is the closest thing I've had to an original theory so far (if someone else has proposed it before me, I was unaware of it, so it's still an original theory in that respect ;->). In any case, I do so enjoy the exchange of ideas that takes place here, and also having other people force me to think these things through by challenging what I post. I have therefore resolved to be less cowardly about posting in the future. -Sherry (who is ever so disappointed that her favorite Weasley quote did not appear in TMTMNBN-2) From sgarfio at yahoo.com Tue Nov 19 20:46:15 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 12:46:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 6 older siblings/Masons: Conspiracy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021119204615.73947.qmail@web21402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46809 Audra wrote: > This theory about the Wealeys being Slytherin's heirs is believable as well. Me: Thanks! I'm so delighted that someone thinks so. Audra again: > I bet that just chafes Lucius Malfoy's caboose if it's true. Me: That's what I like about the idea. Audra: > It's a bit contradictory though to my personal theory of the Potters being > Slytherin's heirs. Now me: Not necessarily. Part of my post (okay, it was the part that occurred to me while I was typing, so it's not totally thought out) mentioned the possible link between Lily and the Weasleys, making her a Slytherin descendant as well. As for the reference to Voldemort being the last descendant (ancestor - I *knew* it had to be intentional!) of Slytherin, keep in mind that we are only presented with information that the *characters* know. Lily was Muggle-born; if my theory proves out, then somewhere among Slytherin's descendants, a line was thought to have died out, because they were all Squibs and the Wizarding World lost track of them, or even rejected them under Slytherin's influence (he was considered one of the greatest wizards of his time; presumably that means he was also influential). This is the line that eventually produced Lily, and a closely related line stayed magical and eventually produced the Weasleys. This may also explain why the Weasley line rejected Slytherin's ideals: they had close cousins who were Squibs, and came to realize that the nature of wizards has little to do with parentage. This line was disowned by the "faithful" Slytherin descendants, leading to the modern-day assumption that Tom Riddle was the last in his line. Audra again: > The idea that James, and therefore Harry, are relatives of Voldemort has been > used to explain why Voldemort did not want to kill Lily. He asked her to > stand aside. He told Harry, "Your mother needn't have died." But there has > to be more to it than that. Since when does Lord Voldemort warn some > inconsequential mudblood to stand aside, and years later express what could > be construed as regret about killing her ("Your mother needn't have died.")? My turn: But if Lily, rather than James, is the Slytherin descendant, maybe Voldemort was willing to spare her because he could use her heritage. Along this line of reasoning, he wanted to kill James and Harry because they are *Gryffindor's* heirs. But another thought just occurred to me: since this would mean that Harry is heir to *both* founding wizards, he represents a reunification, one that Voldemort can not tolerate. Perhaps Harry's Slytherin blood is exactly the thing that prevents Voldemort from killing him - he can't kill another Slytherin. Harry's Slytherin blood came from his mother, reinforcing the idea that it is his mother who is protecting him. Having the blood of *both* Gryffindor and Slytherin might play into this as well, although I'll have to think on it some more. Maybe there was a showdown 1000 years ago between Gryffindor and Slytherin (bold Godric being the most adamant defender of Muggle-borns), which culminated in Slytherin's departure because Gryffindor defeated him. This leads to the current rivalry between their Houses, along with Voldemort's defeat by trying to kill the heir of both founders. I'm rambling more than usual now; I need to go think about this. Apparently you did spark something, Audra. In any case, I don't think my theory contradicts yours at all, it's just another angle. Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Tue Nov 19 20:48:43 2002 From: chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia=20Chrysshallie?=) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:48:43 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Tom go to school with James? In-Reply-To: <004001c2bfe2$ae2b90c0$f52aa8c0@freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: <20021119204843.84603.qmail@web10412.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46810 --- Bright Eyes wrote: My question is kind of in the title (sorry if it's vague though) we know James, Lupin, Sirius, Peter and Severus were all at school at the same time, we also know Hagrid and Tom were at school together. Does anyone know when Lucius was at school? I wondered if he went to school at the same time as Tom? Also were Tom and Hagrid at school at the same time as James and co? Or are we to assume they're older than the others? Does anyone have any answers? >> Tom was in his fifth year when the chamber was opened (about 50 years ago). Hagrid was in his third year when this happened. Lucius was in school after that. quote from CoS (the polyjuice potion): (Draco said) " Of course, it was fifty years ago, so it was before his time, " James came to Hogwarts even later. When Tom was at Hogwarts, the headmaster is Proffesor Dippet. But James came after Dumbledore was headmaster. Hope that helps Vinnia http://www.yahoo.promo.com.au/hint/ - Yahoo! Hint Dropper - Avoid getting hideous gifts this Christmas with Yahoo! Hint Dropper! From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Nov 19 22:07:09 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 22:07:09 -0000 Subject: Did Tom go to school with James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46811 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: > We know that Riddle was at Hogwarts in 1945 (50 years ago from 1995) but that is a very impresise date because there are seven years in hogwarts for all wizarding children. Now, that means that he could have left in 1945, come to hogwarts in 1945 or something in between. (it could have been the date that dumbledore started to have suspicions about him.) > Me: 1945 is also the year Dumbledore defeated Grindlewald and WW2 ends the same year. > Now, Hagrid oviously did not do a very good job at defending himself when accused. This surgests that he was young at the time (and possibuly in a state of shock). This surgests that he was in first or second year when accused and expelled. Furthermore, Riddle would have to have been an older, trusted. student for his claim to have been belived. > Me: Hagrid tells Harry in PS that he was expelled in his third year and I'm sure he repeats this in GOF he says something along the lines (about his Dad) he died in my second year - at least he didn't live to see me expelled. Michelle From timregan at microsoft.com Tue Nov 19 22:09:03 2002 From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 22:09:03 -0000 Subject: "Harry Potter's World: Multidisciplinary Critical Perspectives" book out Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46812 Hi All, I just got a shipping notification from Amazon for Elizabeth E. Heilman's collection "Harry Potter's World: Multidisciplinary Critical Perspectives". Has anyone on the list had a chance to check it out? Cheers, Dumbledad. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0415933749/ From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Tue Nov 19 20:40:12 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:40:12 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Tom go to school with James? References: <20021119193647.77057.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3DDAA1AC.BEB5696@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46813 Andrea wrote: > > > No, they weren't at school together. Tom and Hagrid were in school > "fifty > years ago", according to Draco about when the Chamber was first > opened. > (It doesn't necessarily have to be *exactly* fifty, but I think we can > assume the 45-55 years range.) James was in school at the same time > as > Snape, according to Dumbledore, since they were rivals the same way > Harry > and Draco are. JKR said in an interview that Snape was 35. So, he > and > James could not have been in school 50 years ago with Tom and Hagrid. > :) > > Andrea > Interesting to note though that Hagrid would have to be in his 60's if he went to school with Tom 50 years ago. Perhaps Giants have far longer life spans then humans and being half giant has caused Hagrid to age slower and might make him equivalent of 30-40 years old? I mean, he doesn't act 60+ years old at all. Jazmyn From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Tue Nov 19 20:01:14 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:01:14 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Howlers and the ones who get them --- Two morequestions about howlers --- Question about messages References: <3DDA6D7C.7010101@netvision.net.il> Message-ID: <3DDA988A.355E8908@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46814 Klei wrote: > > > > I don't remember that occuring in the books...I'm pretty sure he only > told them about that when Ron got his howler. > However, Ron could still dunk the howler in a glass of water, or even > sit on it to reduce the volume. Why did he not > do that? > > Another question that comes into mind is who gets howlers? Only > students? I mean, an adult witch or wizard could > get a howler and that would be quite imbarrasing... > > And question number three: Why would Ron's mother send a howler and > shout to everyone that Ron's dad put a > spell on the car? Wouldn't that get Mr. Weasley into even more > trouble? > > And a last but not least question, about the messages I send: Why is > HTML content removed? Sitting on a howler or trying to stick it in a glass of water might make it explode. I would not fancy sitting on exploding letters or having glass shards flying everywhere from a Howler in a glass of water. I'm sure Hagrid got a few howlers and 'chucked em into the fire'. One could just have the owl follow them to a safer location before 'accepting' the letter from it, which is why you might not see any teachers getting them. I would guess they are triggered by being delivered, so if you don't let the owl give it to you right away and see the owl coming with it, you might be able to run to another room and let the owl give it to you there. Teachers who see incoming owls with Howlers headed for them can run out that side door behind the head table, which might lead to the teachers lounge.. Jazmyn From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 19 22:33:48 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 22:33:48 -0000 Subject: Voldemort - descendent or ancestor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46815 kela_bit wrote: > I've seen threads about it "may being valueable one day", but did > anyone notice that the error is deliberate? and Audra responded: > Calling Voldemort Slytherin's "ancestor" was a DELIBERATE error? > So Voldemort's going to use a Super Time Turner to go back and > impregnate Salazar's grandmother? Now me: This has come up before - apparently, the use of the term "deliberate" in the British sense simply means that JKR is owning up to the error. The UK versions have corrected this error, while the US versions have not. ~Phyllis From kela_bit at netvision.net.il Tue Nov 19 20:32:12 2002 From: kela_bit at netvision.net.il (Klei) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 22:32:12 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: AK the most dangerous curse ? References: Message-ID: <3DDA9FCC.8030707@netvision.net.il> No: HPFGUIDX 46816 Grey Wolf wrote: > Klei wrote: > > IMO, this curse, the explosion one, didn't kill the wizards not > > because of a shield but simply because > > they are wizards. > > > > Katsmall the Wise > > If the spell used by Peter only affected muggles (and, so far, there is > no reason to believe that there are such spells), Peter wouldn't have > been able to fake his own death, since he's a wizard. He had to use a > spell that could kill him, after all, or else it wouldn't make much > sense to use it in the first place. That is not what I meant. As we all know, wizards have a much bigger life span, and are much less easily killed. *Maybe*, the spell Peter used is a spell that can kill wizards, but Peter used it in low "volume", i.e. didn't use it to full extent, strong enough it can kill muggles, yet not strong enough to kill wizards. > In the line I started above, although we know that wizards are tougher > than muggles, being able to survive unscathed punishment that would > kill a muggle, this doesn't seem to aply to ofensive spells. AK, > Cruciatus and Imperio are equal-oportunities: they affect equally > muggles and wizards. Of course they do. They can't kill a muggle'more' then they kill a wizard. It's the most that anything can do! > All other spells that have been tried in both > species have been equally damaging to both (like the memory charm), and > in fact, the wizards seem unimpressed by that fact (i.e. they don't > mention that "we had to give him a low charge, because he's a muggle" > or anything like it), although this could be put down to the deficient > knowledge of muggles by wizards. > > Hope that helps, > > Grey Wolf Let me just add that they could have not positively identified the spell (having only muggle widnesses), and there could be a spell that only hurts muggles. And Peter would use that so that Sirius Black is uninjured and thus people would think that he's the caster. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Katsmall the Wise kela_bit at netvision.net.il [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kela_bit at netvision.net.il Tue Nov 19 20:39:22 2002 From: kela_bit at netvision.net.il (Klei) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 22:39:22 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Tom go to school with James? References: <20021119193647.77057.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3DDAA17A.8050008@netvision.net.il> No: HPFGUIDX 46817 Christopher Nuttall wrote: > We know that Riddle was at Hogwarts in 1945 (50 years ago from 1995) > but that is a very impresise date because there are seven years in > hogwarts for all wizarding children. Now, that means that he could > have left in 1945, come to hogwarts in 1945 or something in between. > (it could have been the date that dumbledore started to have > suspicions about him.) First of all, it was not Riddle's last year of school, since Riddle wanted to stay in Hogwarts during the sumer break. > Now, Hagrid oviously did not do a very good job at defending himself > when accused. This surgests that he was young at the time (and > possibuly in a state of shock). This surgests that he was in first or > second year when accused and expelled. Furthermore, Riddle would have > to have been an older, trusted. student for his claim to have been > belived. Also, it was Hagrid's third year - canon states that Hagrid was expelled at his third year. [SS/PS, don't know exact location] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Katsmall the Wise kela_bit at netvision.net.il From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 19 22:43:58 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 22:43:58 -0000 Subject: The Basilisk *Does* Target Its Victims (IMO) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46818 Grey Wolf wrote: > I don't really think the basilisk is trained for anything at all. I > keep picturing Tom!Ginny (that is, Ginny's body being controlled by > Tom) following the basilisk and giving it commands about who to > attack. Thus, on Halloween they are met by Mrs. Norris (and her > ability to find any student that's doing mischief) and is promptly > stoned. Tom!Ginny hangs her body and paints the message and returns > the basilisk to the chamber. On the other occasions, they roam the > castle (the normally empty parts) until they meet someone. They > attack and hide again. Now me: Since the reason Slytherin built the Chamber in the first place was to rid the school of muggle-borns and those he deemed unworthy of practicing magic (such as squibs), it seems to me that the Basilisk would therefore need to target muggle-borns rather than simply attacking whomever it happened to meet. Each of the petrified human victims in CoS was muggle-born. We don't know Myrtle's history yet, but I would wager a couple of knuts she was muggle-born also. As to the only non-human that was attacked, Neville speculates that Mrs. Norris was attacked as a way of attacking Filch, who is a squib, and I happen to agree with Neville. I always wondered whether it was Riddle's voice Harry heard in the walls rather than the Basilisk's voice. Riddle, urging the Basilisk onward, telling the Basilisk who to attack. But even if it was the Basilisk's voice Harry heard in the walls, I still believe Riddle's memory was directing the Basilisk as to who to attack (as Riddle himself says, he preserved himself in his diary in order to be able to come back someday and continue Slytherin's "noble work"). ~Phyllis From kela_bit at netvision.net.il Tue Nov 19 21:11:00 2002 From: kela_bit at netvision.net.il (Klei) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 23:11:00 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort - descendent or ancestor References: Message-ID: <3DDAA8E4.1050803@netvision.net.il> No: HPFGUIDX 46819 Audra1976 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 19/11/2002 14:29:49 Eastern Standard Time, > kela_bit at netvision.net.il writes: > > I've seen threads about it "may being valueable one day", but did > anyone > > notice that the error is deliberate? > > Calling Voldemort Slytherin's "ancestor" was a DELIBERATE error? So > Voldemort's going to use a Super Time Turner to go back and impregnate > Salazar's grandmother? Or turn it a whole lot of time :-) Acctually, I put a quote from the chat, but it was a table, so it disappeard. Quote follows. Q.: Harry Potter for grownups again! Is Voldemort the last remaining ancestor of Slytherin, or the last remaining descendent of Slytherin? J.K.: Ah, you spotted the deliberate error. Yes, it should read "descendent." That's been changed in subsequent editions. (Keep hold of the "ancestor" one, maybe it'll be valuable one day!) See the "Deliberate"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Katsmall the Wise kela_bit at netvision.net.il [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sgarfio at yahoo.com Tue Nov 19 22:49:58 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:49:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] 7th Child - Parseltongue (was How did Ginny open the chamber?) In-Reply-To: <3DDA8808.8030308@netvision.net.il> Message-ID: <20021119224958.15725.qmail@web21403.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46820 I proposed: > If it's only the 7th child, then that would explain why Parselmouth is > such a rare gift: it would only occur in one bloodline, and only when > someone in that bloodline has at least 7 children. Monika replied: > That would rather make Parseltongue nonexistent, not rare. And Katsmall added: > That would also make Harry a non-Parseltongue-speaker because he's an > only child. Now I say: Harry didn't inherit Parseltongue from Slytherin through Lily; as Dumbledore proposed, and many on this list have quoted, the gift was transferred to him when Voldemort tried to kill him as a baby. Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 19 23:15:30 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 23:15:30 -0000 Subject: Lucius the Slytherin (was:Did Tom go to school with James?) In-Reply-To: <3b.2fed0b14.2b0bfc1a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46821 Audra wrote: >>I don't believe it ever mentions in the books whether Lucius even went to Hogwarts or not.<< Actually Draco in Madam Malkin's robe shop says his whole family has been in Slytherin. Let me quote: In PS/SS Ch5: "...but I know I'll be in Slytherin, all our family have been..." So unless he is lying, which would be foolish since it is easily proven, then all of the Malfoy's have been at Hogwarts and a Slytherin. Melody From charisjulia at hotmail.com Tue Nov 19 23:18:41 2002 From: charisjulia at hotmail.com (charisjulia) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 23:18:41 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Saboteur!Snape's Next Mission(WAS Assassin!Snape's next Victim) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46822 Charis Julia peered through the steamed up window of the Pink Flamingo Bar. Out in the open on Theory Bay the night was cold and dark, the freezing winter's wind screeching threateningly as the rain pelted down on her in sheets. It was freezing. She rubbed vigorously at the pane to clear away the racing raindrops and squinted, trying to make out what was going on inside. "Always good to know what you're getting yourself into," she muttered sagely to herself. After all, the weather outside may be nasty, but things weren't always all that pleasant inside the bar either . . . And as Charis made out the slumped form of Captain Cindy wobbling slightly on her bar stool, she knew dark doings are afoot. . . "Brilliant!" she said brightly and walked straight in. In a corner Captain Cindy was harassing George. She had him trapped and was poking a finger against his slim, silk?clad chest. >Well then, George," Cindy sneered, "Tell me all about *your* oh-so- >intellectual theory of how and why Snape returns to Voldemort's >service at the end of GoF. Go on, I'm listening. >Or are you saying that Snape doesn't return to >spying on Voldemort for Dumbledore as his mission at the end of >GoF? You're saying Snape goes out to pick up a pizza, is that it, >George?" Cindy, swaying dangerously, gave George one last jab and then caught hold of the counter to steady herself. "Boy," said Charis pulling up a stool and glancing at the pile of empty cocktail glasses sprawled on the counter "You really have been murdering those Black Russians, huh, Cindy?" "Been at it all night." Marina , who had been preparing herself another cocktail at the other side of the bar, sallied up. "Cindy claims that Snape's mission at the end of GoF is to bump off Karkaroff. She says that he has to. In order to get back in the good books of Voldemort. Cindy thinks this theory has Bang. She also thinks George ought to find it intimidating." Marina took one long draught of her Pina Colada through her straw and glanced towards the other end of the bar, where George was helping the swaying Cindy back onto her bar stool. "Myself, I'm not too worried about that," she went on with a smug smile. >"Come on! What's bangy about >Karkaroff's death? Nobody cares about him. He's a coward, a self- >serving turncoat and a general slimeball. >If Snape likes Karkaroff, then he's the only one in the >entire Potterverese who does. His assassination would be a great >plot twist, and an excellent vehicle for exploring Snape's >character. But it certainly doesn't bang. Charis shifted uncomfortably in her chair. "What?" Marina broke off in mild surprise. "Don't you like it? But listen: >"If Snape was friends with him, yet kills him, then he is once again >going against his desires and naturall inclanations to do what his >duty requires him to do for Dumbledore's cause!" he exclaims >triumphantly. "Just as he did when he betrayed his other DE friends >all those years ago." "Well. . ." said Charis slowly, and then took a tentative sip from her own glass. "Let's just say I'm shaken, but not stirred. It's not the cataclysmic inner conflicts and dilemmas with which I have a problem. Nor is it the Bang that get's to me -? and I do think this theory does have Bang. It's the ideology. I mean, you're asking me to believe that Snape?- the new, redeemed, on?the?good?side?Snape would really permit himself to go around * assassinating* people? At the request of * Dumbledore*? And not even in the heat of the battle when there is no other solution to be had, but just like that, * in cold blood*! No, uh?uh, no way! No * way* would Dumbledore condone something like that! I mean, we're talking about the guy who wouldn't even use the full range of his powers back at the height of Vold War I because that would not show * noblesse*! Charis looked defiantly around her. "I'm sorry but no," she finished off firmly. "I just can't see him giving in and bending that rule now. Not now and not ever. It just doesn't work for me. And. . . and that's * that*!" Charis's voice failed as she took in the rigid faces around her. Stony Silence. "Uh?oh," thought Charis. "Now I'm in for it. . ." In her corner Cindy was fuming. Marina was regarding Charis disdainfully over arched eye? brows. The first to speak was George, recollecting his duties as barman despite the feeling *very* put out. "Can I get you anything?" he asked Charis, looking coldly at her through his long, curling lashes. "Ooh, George, honey," purred Charis with regained confidence. "You know there's only one thing I want from you." George narrowed his eyes suspiciously. Charis flashed a smile. "I'll have a Bang On The Beach. Oh, and, George, darling. . . Don't be stingy with the vodka." Charis swirled to accost Cindy with an eye? brow raised in challenge. "I like my Bangs Big." * * * Cindy wrote: >"Many people think Snape will >return to spying for Voldemort. That doesn't seem likely, though, >if you think about it. Dumbledore announced in the Pensieve that >Snape was a spy for Dumbledore. And Voldemort was a noxious fume >seeping out of the back of Quirrell's turban, so Voldemort ought to >know that Snape was hardly helping Quirrell in PS/SS." You said it, not I! Aw, come on! Do we really have to stick to this ancient Going?Back?To? Voldemort scenario for poor old Snape? I mean, surely we can cook something up much better than that for him! After all, even the most elementary, ordinary, non?obsessive readers will have automatically picked up on that one. Even if I could consider it possible that Voldemort would ever take back Snape no matter what Snape did to prove his loyalty (which I don't), I still wouldn't like this as a plot twist. It's way less than simple. It's obvious. But, ah,! you say. Think of the way Snape blanched before he left the hospital wing! Think of the way his eyes glittered! Clearly he is task must be of a most perilous, unsettling and (preferably) gruesome nature. . . Clearly Voldemort must be involved.! You think so? Really? `Cos, me, I'm not so sure about that at all. Surely Voldemort isn't the gravest danger the whole wizarding world has to offer! Harry at any rate doesn't seem to think so. Not in the middle of PoA at least. . . Now let me ask you again. Are you * sure* you can't think of anything worse than the Dark Lord? Something perhaps that would strike fear into the souls of even the bravest wizards to be found? Wizards like, oh, I don't know. . . Hagrid, maybe? But let's put that issue to a side for a moment. Let us just examine instead the text of "The Parting of the Ways" more closely a minute. I-- Whoa, wait! Hang on a minute! Where are you all heading off to? Come back, come back I say! Why does everybody always rush off to the part with Snape's sweeping exit at the end whenever this subject is brought up? That's no good. It doesn't tell us a thing except the obvious information that we have all digested long ago: Snape has something he must do. Snape is nervous at the thought of what he must do. But Snape is brave and pursues his duty nevertheless. Dumbledore is very worried. Minutes tick by. So, yes, yes, clearly whatever it is that Snape has set out to do is very dangerous and daring. And yes, yes, bravo Snape. Very good. Hurrah. But what * is* this mission? Now, here's what I say: How about we just flick back a few pages.? To, errr. . . da?da, da?dum. . . Ah?ha ! Here: Fudge is still in the room. Dumbledore is having it out with Fudge and Fudge is refusing point blank to see beyond the end of his nose. Dumbledore regardless starts off advising Fudge on the measures he must take. "Voldemort has returned" replied Dumbledore. "If you accept this straight away and take the necessary measures, we may still be able to save the situation. The first and most essential step is to remove Azkaban from the hands of the Dementors." "The next step you must take?and immediately," Dumbledore continued, "is to send envoys to the Giants." "Now," says Charis glancing earnestly about her. "I think we can almost take it as a given that, after Fudge's persistence in his disbelieving attitude and his departure, Dumbledore does indeed proceed to settle the second of these affairs of his own accord. At least that is always what I have assumed Hagrid and Madame Maxime where sent off to do. If that is so, I don't think it would be a long stretch to suggest that he might have done something about that first, more urgent issue either. And in that case, wouldn't it be logical to suppose that, seeing as he was so stringent in his advise that Fudge take on that problem first, he himself would grapple with it before the other also? Of course Dumbledore turns to the Giant issue almost at once. There are but a very few other things he deals with first. But, oh, and fancy that! One of them is sending Snape off! How odd! * * * As Charis turns to face her listeners there is a mad glint in her eyes. "Oh," she whispers softly. "Oh, just think of it. . . Just think of all the things that would resurface in the mind of the repented Death Eater Snape were he ever to be trapped by a Dementor! The pain, the anguish, the racking guilt and regret! What memories of past crimes pushed aside, out of recollection for 14 long years would force themselves back into vivid, relentless recognition! Re?played again and again and again. . . wide screen, Dolby Digital, the works. . . and all the while Snape on the ground, writhing, * screaming* in blind terror! Ohhh. . . Charis gives a slight shudder and wraps herself up tighter in her gleaming FEATHERBOAS. "And that's not all either. Oh no! there's Bang too!" Charis turns to Cindy, who's eyes are beginning to take the slightly glazed expression of newfound delight. "Plenty of Bang! If Snape is set in charge of kicking the Dementors out of Azkaban (or at least removing the prisoners from their influence) there would be nothing but Bang! I mean, just imagine the uproar on a political level! Dumbledore brought up against Fudge on a public, open forum! The petrified wizarding citizens! When Sirius Black escaped from Azkaban that was Big. But this, this is going to be Huge!" "And of course let us not forget the possibility that Snape might get caught-- by the Ministry, by Voldemort? The last one at least would simply * love* to get his hands on severus Snape, I'm sure" "And," Charis finishes off addressing George this time. "If you like the idea of having Snape face simply one old comrade?in?arms in order to kill him, how would you find the thought of having him come face to face with his old * schoolfriends* in order to be, in effect, their *jailer *? Well, it's a thought at least. Charis Julia. (who has lent her copy of GoF to a friend and therefore had to check all the Canon used in this post in the local bookstore. Please forgive any mistakes!) * * * Hypothetic Alley: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% 20Files/hypotheticalley.htm Inish Alley: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue Nov 19 23:30:48 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:30:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Did Tom go to school with James? In-Reply-To: <004001c2bfe2$ae2b90c0$f52aa8c0@freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: <20021119233048.63917.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46823 Bright Eyes wrote: My question is kind of in the title (sorry if it's vague though) we know James, Lupin, Sirius, Peter and Severus were all at school at the same time, we also know Hagrid and Tom were at school together. Does anyone know when Lucius was at school? I wondered if he went to school at the same time as Tom? Also were Tom and Hagrid at school at the same time as James and co? Or are we to assume they're older than the others? Does anyone have any answers? Me: At the time of GoF, JKR said that Snape was 35 or 36. That would make him about 20-21 years older than Harry. Since Snape was in school at the same time as the Marauders, they're also probably about 20-21 years older than Harry and therefore born in the late fifties or no later than 1960. Hagrid was a 13-year-old in 1943, if Tom Riddle took Harry back in time exactly fifty years, so he would have been born in 1930, and Tom in 1927. We don't know enough about Lucius Malfoy. If Arthur and Molly Weasley began having children in the mid-sixties (somewhere between 1964 and 1967) and they weren't long out of school at the time, they could be born somewhere between 1945 and 1948; if they didn't have kids right out of school, they could be born just about any time before that (although we don't even know whether they're the same age--we just know that Molly was out with Arthur rather late one night while they were still in school ). While Arthur and Lucius seem to know each other pretty well and have a history of animosity, that could date from the first reign of terror under Voldemort, and not necessarily from a school rivalry. But even though I suspect Lucius went to school either after the Weasleys or just as they were finishing school (at the earliest) I would personally have a hard time imagining him in school at the same time as Tom. Even if he was a first year when Tom was a seventh year, he'd be born in 1934, making him around 60 years old during GoF. I'm just not seeing it. Twenty years after that (1954) seems about right to me, but I'm afraid I can't necessarily justify my gut feeling about this (although I like that this would make him a possible prefect or even Head Boy when the Marauders were mischievous first or second years.) We don't really have any way of knowing how old Lucius is, and there are no concrete figures on the Weasleys either, but perhaps we'll find out in some future book or a JKR interview. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 19 23:30:59 2002 From: speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com (frankielee242) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 23:30:59 -0000 Subject: CoS theories In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021119125958.0319b4e0@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46824 > Pippin wrote: > > (the following includes quite a bit of speculation): > > > >I am convinced that Lucius and the Diary plotted together, but in > >typical evil-conspiracy fashion, with neither revealing to the other > >their actual objectives. I am sure that if Lucius Malfoy had ever > >had the slightest inkling that Tom could escape from the Diary > >and act autonomously he would never, ever have let it out of his > >control. Then Carol wrote: > It never made sense to me that Lucius would take this kind of risk. He has > to be aware that Voldemort is trying to come back and if he did come back > and found Malfoy to be a scheming traitor, he'd not be too kind to > Malfoy. And Lucius has to know that. ---SNIP--- When Voldie speaks to the DEs gathered in a circle, he berates them > for not having come to his aid during the last 13 years. He says, "They, > who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal > death?" I suppose this could refer to something else, but it also seems > like it could refer to the diary. I've thought for a while now that the > DEs knew about that diary. I also believe that Malfoy knew exactly what > that diary was for. > ---SNIP--- > > So why is it that Voldemort seems to know nothing about the diary > event? Why doesn't Lucius tell him? Even if Lucius did want to use it to > his own ends, I just can't believe that Voldemort wouldn't know about it > and wouldn't be extremely displeased with Lucius since he'd have to then > know that Lucius tried to use the diary for his own purposes. > I agree whole-heartedly with Pippin, and I must take issue with Carol (sorry, Carol). If anyone wants a long read, I wrote up a TBAY on this very subject, message 45653, titled Wildcard!Lucius. It's length is due to all of the supporting canon I could find. In short, Lucius Malfoy was (and is) Lord Voldemort's right-hand man. With Lord Voldemort around, Lucius Malfoy can only ever be second-in-command. Who wants to be number two again when they've had thirteen years at the top? After Harry defeated Quirrelmort in PS/SS, and LV was again reduced to a vapour form living in Albania, I think Lucius breathed a sigh of relief. I think, and have the canon to back it up, that Lucius Malfoy used the diary to continue gaining power in the WW. Power for himself. I also agree with Pippin that Malfoy is in possesion of a number of Lord Voldemort's old belongings and knows (roughly) how they work. By giving the diary to Ginny Weasley, Malfoy knew Tom Riddle would posess her, open the chamber and cause mass panic. Using the chaos to his advantage, Malfoy stepped in and removed Professor Dumbledor by extorting signatures from the other governers. As far as plotting with Tom Riddle's diary, and both parties planning to double-cross each other, I agree with Pippin. I agree with Carol on this point-- Malfoy would not have become headmaster of Hogwarts himself, and Karkaroff seems like the most obvious choice. Please note I said "Tom Riddle" and not Lord Voldemort. The diary contains an ambious sixteen-year-old boy, NOT the current Lord Voldemort. The current LV, from the end of PS/SS to the end of PoA is a vapor. A shadow. A disembodied mind that has to will itself to survive, minute by minute, hour by hour, possessing rats and snakes in the forest. LV himself tells us this at the end of PS/SS and again at the end of GoF-- Peter "Wormtail" Pettigrew sought out LV by communicating with other rats. LV is not in any position to keep tabs on anything except his own survival until Peter shows up. As for Malfoy's other objective in slipping the diary to Ginny Weasley, there's the activities of a little organization called the Ministry of Magic to consider. Halfway through CoS, it's obvious that the Minister, Cornelius Fudge, is in Malfoy's back-pocket. In the conversation Malfoy has with Professor Dumbledore at the end of CoS, we learn that Arthur Weasley's Muggle Protection Act that would have failed if his daughter were caught attacking muggle-born students. I don't think Malfoy was in favor of this Muggle Protection Act. > Pippin wrote: > >Tom dare not defy Lucius openly until he is strong > >enough to leave the Diary, or Lucius will simply repossess it, > >and him. In fact, when Ginny is taken, Lucius rushes to the > >school at once, arriving only shortly after the Weasleys and > >Dumbledore himself. But of course it's too late. > > I just don't see the evidence to suggest that Tom won't defy Lucius or that > Lucius would risk making Tom angry with Voldemort still skulking about > trying to come back to power. Surely the DEs must know he's trying to > regain power after the Quirrelmort episode the year before. As for Lucius > appearing so quickly at Hogwarts, I thought that was because he was in a > huge rush to get Dumbledore out of there. I have to agree with mostly Pippin again, but I agree with Carol that if Tom had left the diary, he would have defied Lucius Malfoy. But Malfoy would have destroyed him. Tom Riddle in the diary is just a sixteen-year-old boy. An ambitous, warped, manipulative and angry sixteen-year-old boy, but Malfoy can't possibly be the current Lord Voldemort's right-hand man with out a few nasty tricks up his sleave. Tom Riddle, upon leaving the diary, would undoubtedly seek out LV, his "past, present and future." If Tom Riddle had escaped the diary, gotten away from Malfoy and found the current Lord Voldemort, LV could have possessed himself (what an odd thought) and regained a body. Which would have thrown a wrench into Malfoy's plans of gaining power for himself. Besides, at the end of GoF, we find out that Barty Crouch expected Lord Voldemort to torture and/or kill the unfaithful DEs... Frankie, who can not wait to see what wrenches JKR will throw into all of our lovely theories in OoP! From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Tue Nov 19 23:42:07 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 23:42:07 -0000 Subject: Why not draco? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46825 There have been a lot of thoeries about why Lucious gave the diary to ginny, but why would he not give it to draco? It would work just as well and draco might even be a willing subject. Even if not, his dad could have kept him imprisoned until tom fully took over. Why risk it all on ginny? Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kaityf at jorsm.com Wed Nov 20 00:00:14 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:00:14 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why not draco? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021119175146.031066c0@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46826 Chris wrote: >There have been a lot of thoeries about why Lucious gave the diary to >ginny, but why would he not give it to draco? It would work just as well >and draco might even be a willing subject. Even if not, his dad could >have kept him imprisoned until tom fully took over. Why risk it all on ginny? What I keep thinking is that Lucius knew perfectly well how dangerous that diary was and that the intent was to drain the person who wrote in it of life force so that he (Voldemort) could come back as his 16 year old self. If I remember correctly, once the life force was completely transferred, the person being drained would die. In that case, Lucius would most definitely not give that diary to his own son. On the other hand, I'm not sure giving it to Ginny was the original intent. Doesn't he give it to Ginny in another book after he and Arthur have that brawl in Flourish and Blotts and Ginny's cauldron goes flying? He may have intended to give it to Hermione or some other Muggle born Hogwarts student, but after the fight with Arthur couldn't resist the temptation to stick it in Ginny's book and give it to her. That sounds like a Lucius Malfoy thing to do. He would feel no remorse for causing the death of Ginny Weasley and would probably even get some pleasure out of it. One up on Arthur and all that. From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 20 00:05:38 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 00:05:38 -0000 Subject: The Basilisk *Does* Target Its Victims (IMO) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46827 Phyllis wrote: >Each of the petrified human victims in CoS was muggle-born. We don't >know Myrtle's history yet, but I would wager a couple of knuts she >was muggle-born also. I think you would win that bet easily. In CoS [of course :)], when Harry and Ron were Polyjuice!Crabbe&Goyle, Draco told them something his dad told him: Ch 12: "But I know one thing - last time the Chamber of Secrets was opened, a Mudblood died." I see no reason for Lucius to lie to his son nor for Draco to lie to Crabbe and Goyle, so I say he is telling the truth. We know last time a student died and that is what caused them to desire to close the school. I see no major jump of logic to say Myrtle is that mudblood. Therefore, Myrtle is muggle-born. >As to the only non-human that was attacked, Neville speculates that >Mrs. Norris was attacked as a way of attacking Filch, who is a >squib, and I happen to agree with Neville. Well, in the chamber, Riddle said he sent the basilisk after the "squib's cat" (Ch 17). Since he made that distinction, I would say Mrs. Norris was attached because Filch has no magic ability. Mudbloods are rare, but squibs are even more rare. Either way, Riddle doesn't like those without magic whether in heritage or in life. In Mrs. Norris's case, by close association and probably proximity. Kill first target that matches criteria. > I always wondered whether it was Riddle's voice Harry heard in the > walls rather than the Basilisk's voice. Riddle, urging the Basilisk > onward, telling the Basilisk who to attack. I like the idea, but how was Riddle!Ginny crawling through the pipes with the snake? In Myrtle's recollection, she said Riddle just went to the sink and parseltongued. He did not get down there with the snake. So with the snake moving behind the walls to a destination, I wonder if Riddle just let the creature loose or actually lead it around? Given that the snake by nature just kills without care, I would think that Riddle lead it around. Also if he did follow the snake through the walls, how is it that neither he nor Riddle!Ginny get caught? It seems a student hissing through the halls would be quite suspicious. Melody From Audra1976 at aol.com Wed Nov 20 00:43:18 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:43:18 EST Subject: Lucius the Slytherin (and old classmates Message-ID: <2b.3169714e.2b0c34a6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46828 Malady579 at hotmail.com writes: > Actually Draco in Madam Malkin's robe shop says his whole family has > been in Slytherin. Let me quote: > In PS/SS Ch5: > "...but I know I'll be in Slytherin, all our family have been..." Ah, I should have known that. What was I thinking? Thanks, Melody. So we have Riddle, Class of '46, and Hagrid (would-be), Class of '49. Arthur and Molly Weasley would have entered Hogwarts in the 50s and graduated in the late 50s or early 60s. I get the impression Amos Diggory was around the same age as them, possibly Cornelius Fudge as well. Lucius Malfoy, Crabbe Sr, Goyle Sr, Narcissa, and possibly MacNair would have graduated in the late 60s or early 70s. Neville Longbottom's parents are likely to have been in this class as well, since we never hear them mentioned in the Marauders' time, and they can't be younger because they were Aurors fighting against Voldemort. James Potter, Lily Evans, Remus Lupin, Sirius Black, Peter Pettigrew, Severus Snape, Evan Rosier, Wilkes, Avery, the future Lestranges, and Bertha Jorkins were all at Hogwarts in the 70s. Barty Crouch was probably a few years behind them. Anyone care to add to that? Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 00:59:20 2002 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 16:59:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Did Tom go to school with James? In-Reply-To: <3DDAA1AC.BEB5696@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <20021120005920.40994.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46829 --- jazmyn wrote: > Interesting to note though that Hagrid would have to be in his 60's if > he went to school with Tom 50 years ago. Perhaps Giants have far longer > life spans then humans and being half giant has caused Hagrid to age > slower and might make him equivalent of 30-40 years old? I mean, he > doesn't act 60+ years old at all. Or perhaps it's his wizarding half that makes him age slower. After all, we know from JKR that wizard's lifespans are quite long. (Dumbledore is 150 and McGonnagal is a "spritely" 70.) I agree with you that Hagrid doesn't quite act 60, but I've always ascribed it to his emotional development basically stopping at 13 when he was expelled. He kept aging, of course, but was quite separate from his peers. Such an experience would tend to make one either extremely mature, from dealing with professors and staff all older than himself, or stay immature. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 20 01:29:54 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 01:29:54 -0000 Subject: AK the most dangerous curse? In-Reply-To: <3DDA9FCC.8030707@netvision.net.il> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46830 "Katsmall the Wise" wrote: > As we all know, wizards have a much bigger life span, and are much >less easily killed. I disagree with the later. I see no reason why wizard would be less easy to kill by curse. The only reference we have to a wizard not being easy to kill is in reference to muggle ways. The only reason we know that wizards can be hard to kill is because of Hagrid's laugh at the idea of the Potters' dying by car crash. (PS/SS Ch4) A car crash is a muggle death not death by curse. Wizards may be able to conjure up protections for their being to protect them from that kind of death, but they are human fresh and blood. They cut and scrap like the rest of us. Wait, I thought of another case, Neville bouncing to his safety after his uncle was dangling him by his ankles (PS/SS Ch 7). The fact Neville was a wizard protected his life that day. But again, this is a muggle death not a wizard curse. We have no proof that a wizard is less easy to kill by a curse which is what y'all are arguing about so I feel this point is important. "Katsmall the Wise" continued: >*Maybe*, the spell Peter used is a spell that can kill wizards, but >Peter used it in low "volume", i.e. didn't use it to full extent, >strong enough it can kill muggles, yet not strong enough to kill >wizards. Once again, we have no proof in the text of such an assertion. A wizard cannot dull down his spells. A weaker wizard's spell is not as aggressive, but once the wizard is trained, the strength of the wizard is behind the spell. That is why certain spells work for certain situations. Ok, an example since I see some confused looks out there. In GoF during Crouch!Moody's DADA lesson, we learn that the students could point their wands at him and say Avada Kedavra till they were blue in the face and not cause anything but as much as a nosebleed. So by your theory, a wizard could "use it at a lower volume" and just cause a nosebleed. I am sorry, but it seems the answer is no. A spell is casted for its effects. They point the wand, say the word, and the effects that word intends is produced. To say there are degrees of spells, is to say there is more to it than incantation. There may be degree of spells, but a spell is a spell. The intent behind it does not matter. Grey Wolf wrote: >>In the line I started above, although we know that wizards are >>tougher than muggles, being able to survive unscathed punishment >>that would kill a muggle, this doesn't seem to aply to ofensive >>spells. AK, Cruciatus and Imperio are equal-oportunities: they >>affect equally muggles and wizards. "Catsmall the Wise" wrote: > Of course they do. They can't kill a muggle'more' then they kill a > wizard. It's the most that anything can do! Ok, honey, you lost me. You were just arguing that a death spell can affect a wizard differently than a muggle. Grey is pointing out, and from my opinion clearly, is that the three "unforgivable" spells are that way because they kill, torture, and possess blindly. The casted spell cannot be "turned down in volume" as you tried to say before. And also, death is not the worse think that can happen to a wizard. The dementor's kiss is. A soulless existence, whether in this world or the next, is much worse. Also, ask a torture victim if is was best they lived instead of died. But this gets into a quality of life discussion, which is another issue all together. Oh, but "Katsmall the Wise" continued further: >Let me just add that they could have not positively identified the >spell (having only muggle widnesses), and there could be a spell that >only hurts muggles. And Peter would use that so that Sirius Black is >uninjured and thus people would think that he's the caster. First, our knowledge of the event is from Fudge. He was a Junior Minister in the Department of Magical Catastrophes. Given that there is such a department, I would say they would know the list of spells that bring about certain anomalies. Kind of like police detectives knowing the blast points and forms of exit holes of bullets to figure out the weapon used in the killing of muggles. Forensics. A lovely thing. Let me paint the picture for you. The scene of the mass murder is thus as Fudge painted: PoA Ch 10: "A crater in the middle of the street, so deep it had cracked the sewer below. Bodies everywhere. Muggles screaming. And Black standing there...a heap of bloodstained robes and a few -- a few fragments--" Now, later in the same book Ch 19, we have Black telling the story and said, "he [Peter] blew apart the street with the wand behind his back, killing everyone within twenty feet of himself..." See the wand behind his back. Peter would of pointed the wand away from himself, and he was facing Black, so the spell projected away from them to the street. So Black and Peter were never part of the curse. Peter animagi'ed himself with his wand thus disappearing, so Black was standing there facing the destruction which was projecting in front of him. So, really all Peter seemed to do was destroy the street for chaos factor. So, no shields for wizards. No spells that can be "turned down." There is not need for all that. In fact, there was no need for a killing spell. Peter was not out to kill Black. He was out to frame him. Melody From alina at distantplace.net Wed Nov 20 02:04:59 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:04:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why not draco? References: Message-ID: <014a01c29039$3ba06c20$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46831 > There have been a lot of thoeries about why Lucious gave the diary to ginny, but why would he not give it to draco? It would work just as well and draco might even be a willing subject. Even if not, his dad could have kept him imprisoned until tom fully took over. Why risk it all on ginny? > > Chris > Because in order for Tom Riddle to turn from memory to a real person his host has to die. Why would Lucius Malfoy want to kill his own son? Alina. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 13/11/2002 From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 20 02:17:38 2002 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Megalynn S.) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:17:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Tom go to school with James? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46832 Andrea wrote: >Or perhaps it's his wizarding half that makes him age slower. After all, >we know from JKR that wizard's lifespans are quite long. (Dumbledore is >150 and McGonnagal is a "spritely" 70.) > > Now Me: So, what we SHOULD be asking is, did Riddle go to school with McGonnagal? If at GOF she is 70 and tom was a fifth year 50 years before 2nd year, that would make him at least 68 Yeah that's it. Soooo, what does this info mean, if anything? Megalynn44 _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From wynnde1 at aol.com Tue Nov 19 23:46:54 2002 From: wynnde1 at aol.com (wynnde1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:46:54 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Assassin!Snape's Next Victim Message-ID: <172.11e22a9e.2b0c276e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46833 Hello, Everyone! I am fascinated by this new theory of Cindy's - that Voldemort will ask Snape to kill Karkaroff in order to "prove" his loyalty. (Sorry, but I'm just not up to trying an actual TBAY post myself, so this will just be a plain old response). For the longest time, I've had it my head that just about the only way for Snape to be able to return to Voldemort would be for him to prove himself by killing someone. I'd never got around to thinking about whom that victim would be. Yes, I can definitely see this scenario as not only possible, but probable. However, I am troubled by a couple of pieces. Primarily, I just don't see Snape as a ruthless killer who would hunt down Karkaroff and curl up snug in his dungeon. And then there's the issue of Dumbledore . . . Cindy wrote: > "I'm not buying it," George said, shaking his head > vigorously. "Snape would never kill Karkaroff out of loyalty to > Dumbledore." > > "Oh, that's exactly what I expect the Snape fans to say," Cindy said > with a smirk. "They'll say that having Snape apprehend and kill > Karkaroff as the price of admission back into Voldemort's inner > circle is out of character for Snape. > Hmnh. Is it out of character for Snape? More on that later. My real problem here is that I find it out of character for Dumbledore. That assumes, of course, that Dumbledore knows what Snape is being asked to do. And I just don't see Dumbledore sending Snape off to murder someone, even someone like Karkaroff. And even if he didn't know about it beforehand, the truth would surely out once Karkaroff turned up dead. So, Snape would not only have to conceal his actions from Dumbledore beforehand, but would have to do some very smooth talking afterwards to explain it. If Snape were to kill someone in self-defense, I'm sure Dumbledore would accept that, but not pre-meditated murder, even for the "common good." And, since I believe that Dumbledore's opinion is VERY VERY important to Snape, if Dumbledore doesn't approve, then I'm not sure how Snape would be able to justify it to himself, let alone to Dumbledore or anyone else. (I suppose that MAGIC DISHWASHER Dumbledore might not have a problem with this? But I don't subscribe to that theory in any case). Cindy wrote: > "Is it, though? We know that Snape is proficient at dueling. We > know Snape showed up at Hogwarts knowing a lot of Dark Curses. We > know Snape was ruthless enough to join the DEs in the first place. > It sure seems reasonable that Snape had to do some awful things when > he was a DE. We know there will be a war in the next books. And, > George. . . . we know that war is not pretty, and people sometimes > have to do awful things in war. For the common good, you know. > Here's where you and I may differ in our opinion of what sort of "awful" things Snape may have done in the war. I certainly believe that horrendously awful things were done by Death Eaters. Rape, torture, murder, pretty much any sort of atrocity you can think of are all within the realm of possibility. But it was only OTHER Death Eaters who did those things. Not my precious Snape. Oops. Did I say precious? (Yes, I must admit I count myself among the "SnapeFan" population here) Seriously, though, I don't believe that Snape, as a Death Eater, ever directly killed anyone. Or perhaps killed just one person and the emotional aftermath of that for him was enough to send him running back to Dumbledore's camp. (I favour the scenario in which Snape was Voldemort's personal potions guy - working on immortality potions and maybe even potions which were used to kill people, but which were administered by people other than Snape. This would have kept him in good with Voldemort, yet out of some of the more "hands on" activities). Originally, I thought that Snape couldn't be a killer, because I didn't think that Dumbledore would have taken him back if he'd been really, really awful. And that JKR wouldn't have written that into the stories. (That's probably not a valid argument). But those things aside, I just don't see Snape as being a ruthless killer. He really seems to be more bark than bite when it comes right down to it. Of course, we only have limited information upon which to base our opinions of Snape's personality and moral code. As you said, he's proficient at duelling and knew lots of curses (according to Sirius, anyway). However, what we've seen of him in the "present" day (as far as the books go) is that he is mean and nasty and petty, but he still is consistently doing the "right" thing - by which I mean he is definitely one of the good guys. Sure, he threatens things - like giving Sirius and Remus to the Dementors. But when he really had the opportunity (down by the lake in PoA), he DIDN'T call the Dementors back, he conjured comfy little stretchers and took everyone back to the castle. And many time we've seen what appears to be genuine concern for the welfare of the students. Of course, none of this is proof of what he was like during his Death Eater days. But the thing I find telling is that he LEFT the Death Eaters. I believe this is because he got to a point where his own personal sense of ethics would not allow him to continue. He is definitely NOT in the same league with someone like Malfoy, who seems not only to handle what was expected of him as a Death Eater, but to have revelled in it. > "Oh, Snape won't enjoy being the instrument of Karkaroff's death ?- > either by leading Karkaroff to slaughter in an ambush for > Voldemort's amusement, or by pulling the trigger himself. But Snape > will do it. Snape will do it for the greater good. And ?- the > Snape fans won't enjoy this either -- Snape will do it to spare his > own hide. Snape will sleep nights knowing that if Snape had refused > to kill Karkaroff, someone else would. Yup, Snape will curl up in > his dungeon at night knowing that if Snape had refused, that someone > else would kill Karkaroff *and* Snape. Snape will see killing > Karkaroff as ugly and disturbing, all right. Ugly, disturbing and > *necessary.*" > > Hmnh. In spite of all the things I've just said about Dumbledore and about Snape not being a killer, I still do think it is possible that Snape will choose to do this, as you say "for the greater good." Yes, I see this as out of character for Snape, but don't we all at times do things which are not, strictly speaking, "in character" for us? (Okay, well maybe not assassinating people and stuff like that, but you know what I mean, right? ). But if he does actually kill Karkaroff, I think that he will find it far more than merely "ugly and disturbing." I don't see Snape taking this in his stride and curling up snug in his dungeon. Far more angsty than that. As Marina said in another post, it would be a great vehicle for exploring Snape's character. But I am really concerned about what killing Karkaroff (or anyone, for that matter) might do to Snape. I think this would be incredibly difficult for him, making him question his own values and motivations. Can he possibly consider himself one of the "good guys" having done something like this? And I do believe he wants very much to believe that he is one of the good guys. I'm not sure he DOES believe it, but he wants to. And assassinating Karkaroff is not going to boost his good-guy self-esteem in the least. Well, that's my 2 knuts' worth for tonight. Thanks for putting out such a great theory! I'm thrilled to have something new to ponder in my sad, obsessed little brain! :-) Wendy (Wondering if there is another Wendy on the list, and if so should I come up with some fabulously clever nickname for myself? Or, in the absence of cleverness on my part, just add my surname's initial)? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bloubet at incanmonkey.com Wed Nov 20 00:32:45 2002 From: bloubet at incanmonkey.com (Beth Loubet) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:32:45 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lucius & Diary, Basilisk, Arthur References: <1037417848.4490.60761.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <00b401c2902c$5ba75950$7001a8c0@bloubetdellpc> No: HPFGUIDX 46834 From: Carol Bainbridge Subject: Re: Re: Re: Lucius and the Diary >I'm sure it was also a failsafe type thing. If something >happened to him later, he could come back through his memory. This is part >of why I think Lucius knew exactly what the diary was for and how it >worked. I keep thinking that Lucius was helping Voldemort come back into >power. I don't think that he was trying to power for himself. He had to >know what was in that diary, which means he wouldn't try to take power by >using an old version of Voldemort. Maybe part of the reason that he chose >this year to do this is that the Ministry chose this year to do raids and >he was afraid of being caught with too many things he shouldn't have before >he had a chance to use them. This, of course, begs the question of why he >hadn't done it before. He had 12 years. Why wait all that time? (All IMHO, of course. ) Lucius wants power. But I think he sees the easiest way to power for himself being riding on LV's coattails. Why put out more effort than is necessary to achieve your ends? On the other hand, Lucius being willing to be second-best to a half-blood in the long run doesn't seem in character. (Witness his comments to Draco about being behind Hermione in grades. Considering Draco's personality, and Lucius' tendencies, I'm sure that he expects Draco to make the best grades, no matter what he has to do to get them. Why would cheating bother a Slytherin? ) Does he not KNOW that LV is a half-blood? I think he does, and plans to ride LV's wave to power, then bide his time until he can wrest that power away for himself, or use his influence to push a pureblood to the top. I also think that Lucius knew exactly what he was dropping in Ginny's cauldron, and I think he was lighting a fuse to rid the world of Harry. Mudbloods getting hurt along the way wouldn't bother him at all, of course, but I think that Lucius has listened to Draco's tales and complaints about Harry, and has realized exactly how dangerous Harry is to his climb to power. The diary had to be played now because Lucius knows about Harry and knows that he needs to get rid of him, it was his first real chance to send something to Harry that could possibly destroy him, and the younger Harry is the easier he'll be to dispose of. As Harry gets older, he gets stronger, more confident, and better trained. Lucius is no dummy -- he knows that getting rid of Harry will only get more and more difficult, and more and more necessary. He also tries to remove Harry's protection by removing Dumbledore, but Dumbledore makes an end run around the Council and gets his job back -- to Lucius' amazement and frustration. I think that the diary was a guided missile with Harry's name on it. It missed, and Lucius will continue to do all he can to take Harry down. Controlling the Basilisk "Jess" writes: >But if Harry was a descendant of Slytherin, wouldn't that have given >him some control over the basilisk in CoS? As in, at least confusing >the giant snake as who was really it's master, or who was giving it >orders? (Non cannon (not sure if this in the book): A particular line >from the movie "Parseltongue won't save you now, Potter- the basilisk >only responds to me." is what prompted this train of thought). I assumed that Riddle had given the basilisk some kind of command, or charmed it, so that it would only listen to him. Before that command had been given, Harry could have ordered the basilisk to attack Riddle just as easily. (It's also possible that Riddle was lying. If Harry had only TRIED to command the basilisk after that in Parseltongue, it might have worked! Harry has a very trusting nature, and LV and his cronies have shown a disturbing, but understandable, tendency to use it against him. ) Arthurian Weasleys Harkening back to an earlier post (which I can't find now...), the Weasley names were being referenced to Arthurian legend. I was wondering -- St. George and the Dragon? Perhaps we do lose Fred (say it isn't so!) to one of the Malfoys, and George goes after Draco... bel From summer2999 at aol.com Wed Nov 20 00:50:13 2002 From: summer2999 at aol.com (Carolyn) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 00:50:13 -0000 Subject: Why not draco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46835 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: > There have been a lot of thoeries about why Lucious gave the diary to ginny, but why would he not give it to draco? It would work just as well and draco might even be a willing subject. Even if not, his dad could have kept him imprisoned until tom fully took over. Why risk it all on ginny? In my opinion, the reason that Lucius didn't give the diary to Draco was that it would have been too obvious. In the books, Harry, Ron, and Hermione all thought Draco was the Heir of Slytherin and was opening the chamber... Lucius, in deciding who to give the diary to, probably wanted to find someone who no one would suspect, so he gave it to Ginny. Along with that other stuff about Riddle draining the powers from the person who had the diary, etc. Agree/Disagree? Peace, Carolyn From julie.k.stahlhut at alum.mit.edu Wed Nov 20 01:30:39 2002 From: julie.k.stahlhut at alum.mit.edu (Julie Stahlhut) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 01:30:39 -0000 Subject: Serpents and Parseltongue Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46836 I know -- long time no post (been finishing my Ph.D. dissertation, believe it or not!) I'm wondering what people think about the generally poor reputation assumed for both serpents and Parselmouths in the HPverse; I'm not convinced they always hold true even in canon. F'rinstance: * The snake that Harry encounters in the zoo in SS/PS is hardly evil; when Harry speaks to it, it escapes its imprisonment, presumably to go home. It never attacks any people. Okay, it scares the bejabbers out of Dudley, Piers, and some other zoo-goers, but that's not the snake's fault; it never bites or menaces anyone, and it's downright grateful to Harry. * The snake in the dueling scene in CoS slithers towards Justin, but there's nothing supernaturally monstrous about it; it's just an irritated wild animal that has been materialized in a bad place, and it merely acts in a snake-like fashion. Dangerous, yes. Evil, no. * We also have little evidence that even the basilisk would kill except for food, had it not been controlled by Tom Riddle. Yup, it's a monster carnivore of the wizard world, just like Fluffy or Norbert, and it's a deadly predator. But, it doesn't seem to have a big enough brain to be malevolent when not under Riddle's control. So -- Maybe Harry did get his Parselmouth fluency during Voldemort's attack, but the fear it inspires among other wizards seems based completely on prejudice due to the Slytherin crowd having used it to control serpents and make weapons of them. Could there be other good Parselmouths besides Harry? And, will we see wizards who can speak other animal languages, for good and/or evil? Disclaimer: I'm a big fan of bugs and snakes and hate to see creepy-crawly critters maligned. If Hagrid had a sister who was an entomology geek, she'd probably be me. :-) Julie From ashfae at technicaldetails.org Wed Nov 20 02:43:22 2002 From: ashfae at technicaldetails.org (ashfaex) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 02:43:22 -0000 Subject: Animagi, Ginnymort, Lucius Malfoy, Animagi, heirs, morality, etc Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46837 When they told me this list was high-volume, I don't think I realized the extent to which that was meant...there's not enough space allowed in the subject header for me to list all the things I'm replying to! Katey >>Hey! this is something I've been bothered about for some time. I've >>heard that JKR said in many interviews that Harry won't become an >>animagus like his dad. Am I wrong to assume that that means he'll >>become an animagus of a different animal? Becomes her wording seems >>very specific. However, I've never actually found the interview, >>though I've looked many times. Could someone find a link to the >>interview or interviews where JKR says this? (A lot of sites say >>that she revealed this info in "several" interviews.) I was under the impression that she meant Harry & company were not going to become Animagi themselves at all. It'd be fun for us to watch, but realistically I don't think she could work it into the story. First of all, how many unregistered Animagi can there realistically be in the world? We've already discovered four, and that seems quite a lot. But also, it takes years to learn how to become an Animagus; it took James & company three years. JKR is very good about keeping her books seperate from one another, even though elements from past books become important later on; but unless Hermione is clever enough to figure how to become an Animagus in one year (possible, given that it's Hermione, but still not very likely), I don't think JKR will introduce a plot element that will so blatantly be in the background for more than one book. Carol: >>This part still gives me a bit of a problem. Exactly how has Tom >>enchanted Ginny to do what he wants? Is he in her mind somehow? I >>had always been under the impression that he has simply charmed her >>to do what he wants her to do. But unless he is somehow in her head, >>how does he know that Mrs. Norris is there petrified, ready to be >>hung on the wall? Unless this was part of the original plan or >>unless Tom is somehow aware of what is going on, how would he know to >>tell Ginny to hang the cat on the wall? And if he did know what was >>going on, why did he need Ginny to write to him to tell him other >>things that were going on? Wouldn't he know every time he charmed >>her? And if he doesn't know what's going on and Mrs. Norris is not >>part of the plan, how would Ginny know to hang the cat up? Does that >>mean that even under Tom's spell, Ginny has some free will? (Which >>leads to a rather scary idea that Ginny is somehow more evil than we >>think she is or is becoming evil due to the influence of Tom's >>charms). Even if Ginny doesn't have free will as we would think of >>it, how could she make the decision on her own to make use of Mrs. >>Norris? Am I forgetting something else, this time about Tom's >>charming of Ginny? I'm with those who think that Tom was able to actually possess Ginny. As in, he shunted her consciousness off to one side and took control of her body; he could see and hear what happened around him, and affect it. Ginny would be sort of asleep in a corner of her own mind while Tom acted through her; this fits in with the fact that she says she's been having problems remembering things. There's much precedent for this type of possession in mythology and folklore, and JKR draws a _lot_ on such folklore. Someone (sorry, can't remember where or who) commented that if this were the case, Ginny would probably be much more traumatized than she was. But if "Ginny" was unconscious while Tom used her body and had no memory, she might not be quite so traumatized. And who's to say she isn't traumatized? The Dementors affect her pretty strongly, and it's not hard to guess what she remembers when they come near her. -Scheherazade >>Ah, too true. However, if I was in the wizarding community, I would >>question how horrible they were in relation to one another, so I >>can't imagine that noone would in the Potterverse. I'm sure they have, but I imagine different wizards have different opinions as to whether AK is preferable to Cruciatus or not, just as different people in real life has different preferences as to whether torture is preferable to death. But that's a matter of variable ethics, not Harry Potter canon, and therefore I don't think it's appropriate to discuss it here. Monika >>Weasleys do not pretend that their squib cousin does not exist. They >>keep enough touch with him to know what his job is, most likely they >>know his family as well. If there was such a connection, Molly would >>have certainly told Harry long ago that he an Ron are related. It's been stated pretty clearly that Harry's only living relatives are the Dursleys; I don't think this is something likely to come into question. First of all, if Lily is related to the Weasley's squib cousin, Molly would likely know. Certainly Dumbledore would know. If the Weasley's were Harry's relatives, then whatever bizarre protection he has while living with the Dursley's would probably still apply if he lived with the Weasley's, and Dumbledore would let him stay there instead of sending him back to the Dursley's every summer. I have to admit, I passionately dislike the idea of there being any more Founder's Heirs of any sorts other than Voldemort. It seems too easy an explanation to me; it reduces the war against Voldemort into a power struggle between the Heirs of Slytherin and the Heirs of Gryffindor. It's stated clearly in CoS that Tom Riddle is the only living descendant of Slytherin, so I can't buy the idea that the Weasley's are also Slytherin's Heirs. Isn't there an interview in which JKR stated that no other Heirs are going to be popping up aside from Voldemort? I'm sure I read that somewhere...if anyone knows, could they provide me with a link? Pippin, your theories about Ginnymort are fascinating! I don't agree with them entirely, but wow, very well thought out. I completely agree that Tom Riddle probably didn't intend for anyone to die the first time he brought out the basilisk, instead preferring to use scare tactics to achieve results; Myrtle's death not only made it likely that Hogwarts would close (inconvienent, and his goal was to purge the school, not to destroy it), it also necessitated the need to find someone to blame for the death, which meant that he was at risk of getting caught. But a death wouldn't have been a problem the second time around. Tom was in no danger of getting caught, as no one knew he existed. If Ginny had been caught, Tom Riddle would still have remained safe, unless someone just happened to find the diary and remember that Tom Riddle later became Lord Voldemort. And who notices a book? On that note also: Chris >>What I keep thinking is that Lucius knew perfectly well how dangerous >>that diary was and that the intent was to drain the person who wrote >>in it of life force so that he (Voldemort) could come back as his 16 >>year old self. If I remember correctly, once the life force was >>completely transferred, the person being drained would die. In that >>case, Lucius would most definitely not give that diary to his own >>son. Not to mention that Draco, as a Slytherin and the son of a "reformed" Death Eater, would fall under suspicion too easily. As is evidenced by our own Trio's attempts to catch him out. *gryn* Ginny, as a pureblood Weasley Gryffindor (not to mention an eleven-year-old girl), was above suspicion, making her a perfect scapegoat. And if Ginny had been caught, that would still have been to Lucius' advantage; he would have lost use of the basilisk and failed to scare Muggleborns from the school, but he would have disgraced the Weasleys, which would put him in a much stronger political position at the Ministry. Again, a clever plot on many levels. Audra >>I don't believe it ever mentions in the books whether Lucius even >>went to Hogwarts or not. He is mentioned in neither Riddle's and >>Hagrid's time there (about 50 years ago), nor Snape's and the >>Marauders' time there (which I imagine to be about 20 years ago). >>It's possible that Lucius slightly older than Snape and the >>Marauders, say in 6th or 7th year when Snape and the Marauders >>entered Hogwarts, and didn't have much interaction with them. That >>would make him in his late 20s when Voldemort was at the height of >>his power, and in his mid-40s now. It's also possible he went to >>Durmstrang (he wanted to send Draco there) or even Beauxbaton (Malfoy >>does sound like a French name). Draco tells Harry/Goyle and Ron/Crabbe that the Chamber of Secrets was opened "before his father's time," which implies that there was a time when Lucius was at Hogwarts. >>Also if he did follow the snake through the walls, how is it that >>neither he nor Riddle!Ginny get caught? It seems a student hissing >>through the halls would be quite suspicious. I imagine Ginnymort (man I love that term!) simply walked through the corridors. The snake had to travel through pipes in order to not be noticed, but a Hogwarts student walking around would be completely normal. No one would have known she was following the path of the snake, as no one else (except, to everyone's surprise, Harry) was able to hear the basilisk speaking to itself as it moved. It's simple enough to wait to speak to the basilisk until no one else is around; similarly, the basilisk could have been ordered not to attack until given the word. Ashfae From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Nov 20 03:06:07 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:06:07 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Tom go to school with James? References: <20021119193647.77057.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> <3DDAA1AC.BEB5696@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <019101c29041$c8a31480$849ccdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 46838 Jazmyn wrote: > Interesting to note though that Hagrid would have to be in his 60's if > he went to school with Tom 50 years ago. Perhaps Giants have far longer > life spans then humans and being half giant has caused Hagrid to age > slower and might make him equivalent of 30-40 years old? I mean, he > doesn't act 60+ years old at all. Well, Dumbledore doesn't act 150 either. Considering a normal person would be long dead at that age. JKR hinted that it was a wizard thing, living longer than Muggles. But Harry doesn't know that yet. And even if Hagrid isn't a fully trained wizard, he's a wizard by blood nonetheless. So, other than Hagrid, who exactly was at school with Riddle? Lucius was after his time, according to Draco, and I place Arthur and Molly at school with Lucius. The Marauders and that bunch much later, of course. McGonagall pretty much had to be at Hogwarts with Riddle for at least one year. Anybody else? Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From cindysphynx at comcast.net Wed Nov 20 03:49:43 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 03:49:43 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Assassin!Snape Meets Saboteur!Snape (WAS Saboteur!Snape's Next Mission) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46839 "That's it! I'm calling you a cab." "No, I'm *fine!* I do *not* need a cab." "If you try to apparate when you're like this, you'll splinch yourself for sure, Cindy." "When I want your opinion, I'll ask for it, OK, George? Just make me some coffee, will you?" A powerful voice suddenly sliced through the Tavern, silencing the dull buzz of conversation. "Cindy's right, George." Charis Julia paused, framed in the light streaming in through the open doorway. Patrons froze, their drinks poised at their lips while they stared, mouths slightly open, unsure whether they were really, truly in the presence of *the* Charis Julia. Oh, it had been a long time indeed since Charis had dropped by the Tavern for a bit of creative theorizing. An older man stood quickly as she crossed the bar, offering her the stool next to Cindy, bowing deeply as he retreated into the shadows. Charis nodded once at George, who immediately presented her with her drink of choice -? a Flamingo. "Cindy doesn't need any help apparating," Charis said calmly. "No, if you ask me, Cindy needs help with that Assassin!Snape theory. 'Cause that thing is Dead On Arrival." "You -- you think my theory is dead?" Cindy asked in a small voice. "Oh, yessirree, it sure is," Charis replied. "You're asking me to believe that Snape ?- the new, redeemed, on?the?good?side?Snape would really permit himself to go around *assassinating* people? At the request of *Dumbledore*? And not even in the heat of the battle when there is no other solution to be had, but just like that, *in cold blood*! No, uh?uh, no way! No *way* would Dumbledore condone something like that! I mean, we're talking about the guy who wouldn't even use the full range of his powers back at the height of Vold War I because that would not show *noblesse*!" Cindy hesitated, looking downcast and silently mourning the demise of a perfectly good Snape theory, but Marina broke in quickly. "No, don't sell Assassin!Snape short, Charis. It's plausible, it's angsty and dramatic, it would certainly go a long way toward convincing Voldemort. I don't have a problem with it at all." "Uh, yeah, right." Cindy glanced suspiciously at Marina but continued on recklessly. "See, Charis, you, uh . . . you don't defeat Grindewald without breaking a few *heads,* you know." "Breaking a few heads?" Charis echoed blankly. "Is that synonymous with Humpty Dumptying the Bangs or something?" "Never mind that," Cindy said. "Let me see if I've got this Saboteur!Snape theory straight. You're saying that the thing that has Snape all worried ?- the thing that has him looking paler than usual, that has him staring Harry in the eye just a bit too long at the leaving feast ?- is that Snape is going to put the Dementors out of work and become *The Warden of Azkaban* or something?" "You know, that does have a nice ring to it -? 'Warden of Azkaban.'" George nodded and smiled broadly before noticing Marina's disapproving glare. "Focus *up* George," Cindy said impatiently. "The mere ability to devise a snappy name for a theory doesn't make it canonical. Yes, the 'Warden of Azkaban' is right Bangy, I'll give you that. But the theory itself? The idea that Snape's mission is to dispatch the Dementors and take over Azkaban? Oh, it's -? well, forgive me Charis ?- but it's a bit on the Dud-worthy side." "Why, though?" George asked. "I mean, prison stories Bang almost by definition. I mean, even *I* would have a hard time coming up with a prison story that didn't Bang, and that's saying something." Cindy sighed audibly. "The problem with Saboteur!Snape is one of logic, not one of Banginess. Snape leaves Harry in the hospital wing and sweeps off to accomplish something important Dumbledore has asked of him. It is dangerous, and Snape has to be 'prepared.' Snape is Dumbledore's Number One -? Snape gets his orders after everyone else who is going to leave has been asked to leave, so this task is Big and secret. "In the face of that Big set-up, we're to imagine that Snape is going to Azkaban, will toss off a Patronus to make the Dementors glide away and then ?- what? Sit there, commanding the DE prisoners to dig holes and fill them back up again? Tell the inmates to stop making so darn much noise banging their tin cups against the bars? Arrange conjugal visits for the Lestranges? "Nah, 'The Warden of Azkaban' mission would work fine if Azkaban were filled with innocent people -? allies of Dumbledore who need to be freed or something. That would be really, really cool. But in OoP, we *know* that Snape won't free the DEs in Azkaban, so there's nothing left for him to do but babysit them. There's no reason at all to think that Dumbledore's allies are in Azkaban -? we know that the old crowd of Lupin and Mundungus and Figg are not. I think it is way Bangier to allow all of those Azkaban prisoners to escape ?- including the formidable Mrs. Lestrange -? than for JKR to send Snape to play the penal officer." "No, I still don't buy it," Charis said coldly. "If Snape is set in charge of kicking the Dementors out of Azkaban (or at least removing the prisoners from their influence) there would be nothing but Bang!" "Oh, if you want Bang out of that Warden theory, then you really need to let 'er rip, Charis. Snape could take over Azkaban and *kill* every last one of the DEs imprisoned there -? including his old Slytherin buddies. I kind of like that myself -? ColdBloodedMassMurderer!Snape, if I understand you correctly. I mean, that *is* Bangy, all right, but if your objection is that Snape and Dumbledore are too nice to kill Karkaroff, surely Snape won't kill a whole *prison* full of DEs in cold blood, right?" Marina gave a small shudder and turned away, looking slightly ill. "Not only that, but there might be a little canon problem, Charis. Snape leaves and goes somewhere that night, but he is back in time for the leaving feast. I don't know how many days pass, although I've always assumed it wasn't too many. Are you saying that Snape went to Azkaban, dispatched the Dementors and then just came straight back, leaving the inmates totally unguarded to fend for themselves -? to die a slow death of starvation in their cells?" "Well . . . " Charis looked undecided, and seeing this, Cindy pressed on. "Still not sold, huh? OK. What we need here to bring you around are some Assassin!Snape variants for you. I seem to have three variants right here. First, there is the 'Karkaroff's Head On A Stake' variant. Snape and Dumbledore have hatched a can't-miss plan to absolutely insure Snape's welcome back into the DE fold. Snape apparates straight to Voldemort's lair clutching two things in his slimy hands to prove his loyalty beyond question -? Karkaroff's wand and Karkaroff's *head.*" There was an icy silence as the patrons sat motionless. "BANG!" whispered George, his blue eyes wide and staring somewhere in the distance. "But as you point out, Charis, that is awfully mean for Dumbledore and Snape to just hunt Karkaroff down like a dog in the street and then up and kill the poor man in cold blood like that. I mean *Whoa!* "So let's consider the next variant -? Snape doesn't kill Karkaroff himself. I mean, where's the fun in that? No, instead there's the 'Bring Him In Alive' variant. Snape apprehends Karkaroff and brings him to Voldemort alive -- furs and all. Snape is able to prove his loyalty to Voldemort without getting any, er, blood on his hands, so to speak. Now, if Karkaroff had his choice, he would probably prefer that Snape go with 'Karkaroff's Head On A Stake,' frankly. 'Cause you *know* what Karkaroff's fate is under 'Bring Him In Alive.' Let's just say that there will be a great lot of screaming, begging, weeping and sniveling and leave it at that. It's Bangy -- if you, uh, like that sort of thing. "And then there is the safest Assassin!Snape variant for those with weak stomachs ?- the traditional 'The Devil Made Me Do It' variant. Snape goes to Voldemort, who sends him after Karkaroff *or else,* so Snape ?- deeply conflicted and racked with guilt -? does what he must do. This one is probably the most canonical, I think, because the set-up in 'GoF: The Beginning' is so very strong: ********* "What was it that Snape had done on Dumbledore's orders, the night that Voldemort had returned? And why . . . *why* . . . was Dumbledore so convinced that Snape was truly on their side? . . . Snape had turned spy against Voldemort, "at great personal risk." Was that the job he taken up again? Had he made contact with the Death Eaters, perhaps? Pretended that he had never really gone over to Dumbledore, that he had been, like Voldemort, biding his time?" *********** "I mean," Cindy said, "would you *look* at that set-up? How can JKR waltz up to us in OoP and say, 'Oh, no, Snape didn't have anything to do with Voldemort at the end of GoF.' Nah, she's stuck. She just needs a convincing way to explain why Voldemort would take Snape back." Cindy reached over and grabbed the last peanuts from the basket while Charis and Marina gaped at her. The only sound in the Tavern was the sound of salted nuts being crushed between teeth. "Are you, uh, sure you don't want me to call that cab?" asked George eventually. "No need, George," Cindy replied. "I think I'll stay around for just a bit longer. This is just starting to get interesting, don't you think?" ********** Cindy *********** Hypothetic Alley: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hypotheticalley.html Inish Alley: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 From jodel at aol.com Wed Nov 20 04:11:42 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 23:11:42 EST Subject: Mrs Norris Message-ID: <88.21451f0f.2b0c657e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46840 Carol asks: << This part still gives me a bit of a problem. Exactly how has Tom enchanted Ginny to do what he wants? Is he in her mind somehow? I had always been under the impression that he has simply charmed her to do what he wants her to do. But unless he is somehow in her head, how does he know that Mrs. Norris is there petrified, ready to be hung on the wall? >> Voldemort has two very extrordinary specialties. First, he is a parslemouth. But the more dangerous quality is that he is able to posess others. In this regard, he is almost more dangerous as VaporMort than when he actually has a physical form of his own. Tom Riddle *possessed* Ginny and used her body as his own. He took consious control and overrode even her own awareness of where she was or what she was doing. Fortunately he was too weak to keep control of her for long periods. Which is probably why the basilisk was not out for extended periods of time. As she grew weaker he grew stronger but he still had to fight to get her down into the Chanber at the end of the year. She was aware of that conflict as she had NOT been aware of slipping out to kill the roosters and paint words on the wall. Could someone with a clearer recollection refresh our memory here? Did ALL the petrifications take place on the same floor of the castle? The third floor? Same floor as the Library, the entrance to the Gryffandor common room AND moaning Myrtle's bathroom? Was Tom limited to very short excursions with his pet basilisk? Or are these all on separate floors? -JOdel From Audra1976 at aol.com Wed Nov 20 04:20:49 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 23:20:49 -0500 Subject: Who was in school with Voldemort? =?ISO-8859-1?B?oChXYXM6IFJlOiBEaWQgVG9tIGdvIHRvIHNjaG9vbCB3aXRoIEphbWVzPyk=?= Message-ID: <3F556B34.7EDD3A45.022D3A68@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46841 Richelle writes: <> Yes, McGonagall is a few years older than Voldemort, but their time at Hogwarts definitely would have overlapped. A few others who might have been students at Hogwarts in Riddle's day based on their probable ages: Neville's Great Uncle Algie and Great Aunt Enid, Ron's Uncle Bilius, Harry's paternal grandparents, Arabella Figg, Mundungus Fletcher, Mad-Eye Moody, Nott (the older Death Eater). That's all I can think of at the moment. Audra From the.gremlin at verizon.net Wed Nov 20 04:35:22 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 04:35:22 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Saboteur!Snape's Next Mission(WAS Assassin!Snape's next Victim) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46842 Okay, I have never responded to a TBAY post, but you said the magic word: "Snape". I will not use the regular TBAY format cuz I don't think I could do it, and I just have a couple comments. Charis wrote: "It's the ideology. I mean, you're asking me to believe that Snape?- the new, redeemed, on?the?good?side?Snape would really permit himself to go around * assassinating* people? At the request of * Dumbledore*? And not even in the heat of the battle when there is no other solution to be had, but just like that, * in cold blood*! No, uh?uh, no way! No * way* would Dumbledore condone something like that!" I did like the theory when I first saw it (and I know the theory belongs to Cindy), but the part where Dumbledore orders it is just off. Dumbledore is not the type of person to have other people do his dirty work. So I definitely agree with you. I think Cindy said this: "Many people think Snape will return to spying for Voldemort. That doesn't seem likely, though, if you think about it. Dumbledore announced in the Pensieve that Snape was a spy for Dumbledore. And Voldemort was a noxious fume seeping out of the back of Quirrell's turban, so Voldemort ought to know that Snape was hardly helping Quirrell in PS/SS." ::throws self on floor:: anything but that! no more snape-goes-back- to-voldemort! he's not suicidal!! Charis said: "But, ah,! you say. Think of the way Snape blanched before he left the hospital wing! Think of the way his eyes glittered! Clearly he is task must be of a most perilous, unsettling and (preferably) gruesome nature. . . Clearly Voldemort must be involved.! So begin my comments. Porphyria did an awesome and probably time- consuming analysis of most or all of the accounts of Snape's eyes glittering and him turning pale in message #46750. She concluded that every time Snape's eyes glittered or he turned pale, "Snape is thinking something aggressive, and very often he's thinking about his favorite subject, namely accosting some miscreant or slacker in the act of screwing up. . .So I'd say that whatever Snape is about to do at the end of GoF, he's champing at the bit. I think he's fantasizing about getting payback from all the evil DEs he hates and wants to see punished. I think he's a little excited about what he's doing even though he knows it's dangerous." She also found canon where Harry turns pale and his eyes glitter, and it's in PS/SS when he announces to H and R that they are going through the trap door to presumably catch Snape stealing the SS/PS. So there's another way of interpreting Snape's look at the end of GoF. Charis: "And in that case, wouldn't it be logical to suppose that, seeing as he was so stringent in his advise that Fudge take on that problem first, he himself would grapple with it before the other also? Of course Dumbledore turns to the Giantissue almost at once." Ah, but here's where I have the problem! Dumbledore DOESN'T send Hagrid off right away. Hagrid doesn't leave until after the school year has ended. Snape leaves right away. Charis: "There are but a very few other things he deals with first. But, oh, and fancy that! One of them is sending Snape off! How odd!" Yes, exactly, he sends Snape off *right* *after* the events of GoF have occured. And he's back by the Leaving Feast. Whatever he did had to be fast, and probably nearby, as wizards cannot Apparate that far, and maybe not even Bangy enough to not have been noticed by the rest of the Wizarding World. There is a month between the third task and the end of the school year. However, there is not mention of Snape not being at Potions lessons or the lessons being cancelled, and no mention of anything huge happening, like Dementors being kicked out of Azkaban. Charis: "Just think of all the things that would resurface in the mind of the repented Death Eater Snape were he ever to be trapped by a Dementor! The pain, the anguish, the racking guilt and regret! What memories of past crimes pushed aside, out of recollection for 14 long years would force themselves back into vivid, relentless recognition! Re?played again and again and again. . . wide screen, Dolby Digital, the works. . . and all the while Snape on the ground, writhing, * screaming* in blind terror! Ohhh. . . " While an interesting plot point, and highly likely, we have to remember that it is Harry telling the story. Or his POV, at least. Unless Snape has a Pensieve as well, or suddenly has a change of heart and becomes bosom buddies with Harry, it is unlikely that Harry would find out about Snape falling apart at Dementor's hands. Charis: "If Snape is set in charge of kicking the Dementors out of Azkaban (or at least removing the prisoners from their influence) there would be nothing but Bang! I mean, just imagine the uproar on a political level! Dumbledore brought up against Fudge on a public, open forum! The petrified wizarding citizens! When Sirius Black escaped from Azkaban that was Big. But this, this is going to be Huge!" Another problem. If Snape's task was to kick the Dementors out of Azkaban, wouldn't someone have noticed? If this was a Big Bang thing, the WW HAS to notice something has gone on. We can't just wait till the next school year to find this out. To me, that defeats the purpose of a Bangy thing. Charis: "'And,'" Charis finishes off addressing George this time. "'If you like the idea of having Snape face simply one old comrade?in?arms in order to kill him, how would you find the thought of having him come face to face with his old * schoolfriends* in order to be, in effect, their *jailer *?'" Very interesting. Another good plot point. I have no comment on this, and I have spent almost an hour on this. I love it when my replies give way to more questions. DID Snape only just return in time for the leaving feast? The only lesson that is mentioned cancelled after the third task is DADA. Did they have a substitute for Potions, and it was just supposed to be a given? Or have I found a Flint? -Acire, who has spent far too long on this post and must get dinner before the dangerous squirrels come out and attack. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 05:30:46 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 05:30:46 -0000 Subject: CoS theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46843 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > (the following includes quite a bit of speculation): > PIPPIN: > I am convinced that Lucius and the Diary plotted together, but in > typical evil-conspiracy fashion, with neither revealing to the other > their actual objectives. I am sure that if Lucius Malfoy had ever > had the slightest inkling that Tom could escape from the Diary > and act autonomously he would never, ever have let it out of his > control. > BBOY_MN ADDS: Interesting theory and quite possible. -end bboy_mn - this part- > PIPPIN CONTINUES: > > So Myrtle's death was also an accident. Either Tom didn't know > she was there, or he thought she'd be protected by her glasses. > But they didn't have that power, or else she pushed them up to > wipe her eyes, saw the basilisk, and the glasses fell back into > place as she died. It is likely that Tom assumed she'd been > successfully petrified and was just as shocked to find out she > was dead as everyone else. > > ...Big Edit.... > > Pippin bboy_mn comments: This is really off the true subject but since you brought it up, I will comment on it. Q: Why did't Myrtle's glasses protect her? A: Because glasses or no glasses, she still looked DIRECTLY into the eyes of the basilisk. The only other person to look at the basilisk through a lense was Colin. So why was he protected and not Myrtle? The only way to explain this is to assume that Colin was using a 35mm SLR camera or a box camera where you look DOWN into view finder that is mounted flat on the top of the camera. Does anyone know what I mean by this second camera, and do you know what the proper term for this type is? In either case, not only does the light pass through several lenses, but, and this is the key part, it is also reflected off of a mirror, the very thing that saved Hernmione and Penelope. They were not looking at the basilisk, the were looking at the image or reflection of the basilisk. Poor Myrtle was actually looking directly at the real thing. Now Justin seeing the basilisk through a ghost, is a very special and unusual case. Seeing something like this through the spiritual embodiment of a dead person has to have some unsual effects and is probably something that has rarely to never occurred before. I know this doesn't address your theory directly, but I though I would add my opinion regarding Mytle because someone else brought this up recently too, and I don't think anyone addressed it. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From oppen at mycns.net Wed Nov 20 07:25:57 2002 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 01:25:57 -0600 Subject: Crabbe-and-Goyle and Draco Malfoy Message-ID: <017e01c29066$3c84df40$d3570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 46844 A thought has occured to me... It states, clearly, several times in The Texts Themselves that "for one wizard/witch to save the life of another creates a bond between them." This is why, among other things, Snape is trying to save Harry's life even though he detests the little dratsab (spelled backwards because some folks may read this list on machines where nannyware is required) and why Dumbledore isn't too displeased that Pettigrew/Wormtail, with that life-debt to Harry Potter, is now Voldie's right-(silver)-hand man. Is it not an explanation for C+G's willingness to follow Draco and defer to him that does no violence to The Texts Themselves that at some time prior to their eleventh year and Hogwarts letters, Draco had saved both of their lives? Or, for that matter, they had saved his, which is why he now allows them to be his followers? I'm not even so sure that they're stupid. Just because they don't talk much doesn't make them stupid...Draco blabs on, a mile a minute, and a lot of time that flapping tongue of his is what gets him into Deep, Deep Kimchee. They apparently do pass their classes, and since Hoggies has Anti-Cheating Charms, they can't just be cheating their way through---a lot of the tests at the end of the year do seem to involve practical demonstrations of what's been learned, so cheating's Right Straight Out anyway. If, say, they saved Draco's life, or Draco saved them, part of their bond could be that Draco spends a lot of his spare time helping them get their minds around their homework...that is, if they _are_ as stupid as the Trio thinks they are. Draco calls them stupid in The Polyjuice Scene, but Drakie-wakie's not a reliable witness on several counts; between his waspish tongue and the possibility that he himself is more gifted than the average, and unable to empathize with those less gifted, I would say there is at least room for some doubt. The Trio think they're stupid, as well, but again, we have the problem of the "unreliable narrator," in that Harry is not privy to much actual knowledge about C+G. From Audra1976 at aol.com Wed Nov 20 09:31:03 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 04:31:03 -0500 Subject: Arthurian Weasleys Message-ID: <4DF2A7F3.1E77B198.022D3A68@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46845 Bel writes: <> If you're interested, I found comparisons to the Weasleys' names and Arturian legend in posts #46338, 46367, and 46508, but only Arthur, Ron, and Ginny. Post #45247 has a link to a great website comparing Harry to Arthur. I couldn't find any posts mentioning St. George and the dragon. But while we're on the topic, there was a knight in Arthurian legend called Pheredin (Fred?). He was a friend of his fellow knight, Tristan, and fell in love with Tristan's lover, Isolde. Tristan found out and was enraged. Isolde wrote Pheredin a letter saying she didn't want to see him again because of Tristan, and Pheredin died of a broken heart. Audra From judyshapiro at directvinternet.com Wed Nov 20 11:28:58 2002 From: judyshapiro at directvinternet.com (Judy) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:28:58 -0000 Subject: Snape, Spy and Assassin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46846 Like Acire, I am "TBAY-impaired" but can't resist the lure of that single, simple, sibilant syllable: "Snape." Spy!Snape. Assassin!Snape. Snape!snape!snape!snape!snape!!! So, here is my prosaic offering. I'm completely convinced that Snape's task at the end of GoF is to return to spying on Voldemort. Here's my reasons for thinking this. First, there's the timing. He's sent on the task immediately after Voldemort's return. Second, it's something that Dumbledore "must ask of" Snape, which implies that the task is vital and that Snape is the only one who can do it. Spying on Voldemort fits both of these criteria. Third, the task is clearly supposed to be dangerous, judging by Dumbledore's concerned look; spying on Voldemort certain fits this criterion as well. I can't think of any other task it could be. I don't buy the theory that Snape is supposed to wrest control of Azkaban from the dementors. I don't think Dumbledore will be able to neutralize the threat from the dementors -- I think JKR is setting up a release of the Azkaban prisoners in subsequent books, which will be one reason why the Dark Lord will become "more terrible than before." And like Cindy, I don't think Snape could guard the Azkaban prisoners and yet be back for the farewell dinner at the end of GoF. (BTW, I loved the line about Snape "arranging conjugal visits for the Lestranges," Cindy.) So, the big problem is "Why in the world would Voldemort take Snape back, after Snape went over to Dumbledore's side?" A difficult question, but I can think of several reasons: 1) Voldemort doesn't want to believe that Snape actually was spying on him. It's well known that Snape was a double-agent by the end of VoldeWar I. But, that still leaves Voldemort with the question of whose side Snape was *really* on. Voldemort has two choices. He can believe that (A) Snape was working for Dumbledore and spying on Voldemort, while Voldemort was dumb enough to trust him; or (B) Snape was working for Voldemort and spying on Dumbledore, while Dumbledore was dumb enough to trust him. So, which will Voldemort believe? Remember, we're talking about *Voldemort* here. "Evil Overlord" Voldemort. "I'm the greatest wizard ever" Voldemort. "Phoenix Tears, I forgot" Voldemort. He's going to go with choice B. Voldemort will think that Snape was really on his side all along, and pulled the wool over the eyes of "that fool" Dumbledore. 2) Voldemort believes he can infallibly detect lies. Repeatedly, Voldemort claims that he can tell when someone is lying to him. I suspect that JKR intends this to be true, that this is one of Voldemort's powers. But, even if Voldemort really doesn't have this power, he clearly *thinks* that he does. So, he won't think Snape can lie to him, and his guard will be down. Perhaps you're wondering "How could Snape deceive Voldemort, if Voldemort always can detect lies?" Well, it would be difficult and risky, but not impossible. Suppose Snape goes to Voldemort at the end of GoF. I imagine a conversation like the following. Voldemort: "Bwahahaha, no one can fool me! I can easily tell if you are loyal to me. Tell me, Snape, my slippery friend, whose side are you on?" Snape: "Why, the winning side of course, my Lord. That is why I have returned to you." At this point, Voldemort's enormous ego kicks in and he assumes that "the winning side" is *his* side, even though Snape never said any such thing. 3) Snape may have a potion that increases persuasiveness. We've seen potions that improve one's conversation skills -- scintillating solution, and wit-sharpening potion -- in the books. And, there are objects in folklore (such as the Blarney Stone) that have the magical property to make one more convincing. So, potions that make a speaker more convincing are quite possible within the Potterverse, and who better to brew (or invent) one than Snape? Dumbledore asks Snape if he is prepared for his task, which could mean that some elaborate preparation such as potion brewing is required. If Snape invented the potion, Voldemort would not know that it existed. Even if the potion had been invented earlier, perhaps Voldemort might have forgotten about it. (Especially if the potion is based on phoenix tears!) The bottom line is, Voldemort refuses to believe that anyone can outsmart him. This would be Snape's biggest advantage in trying to spy on Voldemort. OK, so I firmly believe in Spy!Snape. Now, what about Assassin!Snape? I have to confess, I had never thought of the possibility that Snape would assassinate Karkaroff. But now that Cindy has proposed this theory, I love it. It's just got to be true. JKR is setting it up so that Snape has perfect excuses to kill Karkaroff. First, Karkaroff tried to save his own hide by putting Snape in Azkaban. I can just picture a flashback to Karkaroff telling Snape, "I'm sorry I tried to sacrifice you, but I had no choice -- you understand, don't you?" followed by Snape about to AK Karkaroff and saying, "I'm sorry I have to sacrifice you, but I have no choice -- you understand, don't you?" Second, there are those, um, you know, er, hints that Karkaroff sexually exploited Snape. You know, the stuff about Karkaroff acting like he's attracted to Victor Krum combined with the fact that Krum is described as looking like Snape. And also the fact that Snape is on first-name terms with "Igor" and apparently with absolutely no one else. If Karkaroff had molested Snape, that would be a good reason for Snape to be willing to assassinate him. Er, JKR did say something about the books getting darker as they went along, now didn't she? Furthermore, if Snape returns to spying on Voldemort, Karkaroff will have to be assassinated by *someone*, due to Voldeort's "One DE that has left me forever, one too cowardly to return" statement. I believe that, at the time of the graveyard scene, Voldemort believed Snape had left him forever and planned to kill him, while planning to punish Karkaroff for being too cowardly to return. However, if Voldemort becomes convinced that Snape is on his side, he will still need to kill one of the DEs in order to follow through on his statement in the graveyard. He might as well kill Karkaroff, who seems entirely useless (at best.) And who better to do it than Snape? The murder might serve as Snape's punishment, and having Snape be the assassin would save Voldemort from some awkward questions: Voldemort: "Hey MacNair, can you kill Karkaroff and while you're at it, crucio Snape a bit for me?" MacNair: "Huh, Boss? I was expecting you'd want me to kill Snape and crucio Karkaroff instead." Voldemort: "Yeah, well, an overlord can change his mind once in a while, can't he?" No, it's much tidier if Snape kills Karkaroff, rather than involving another DE in this whole "killing and punishing" thing. OK, so I'm convinced of Assassin!Snape. Now, which version do I prefer? Cindy suggested the possibility of 'Karkaroff's Head On A Stake': > Snape apparates straight to Voldemort's lair clutching two things in > his slimy hands to prove his loyalty beyond question -? > Karkaroff's wand and Karkaroff's *head.*" Oh my, that's Bangy! Yes, indeed -- my ears are still ringing. I think that's a bit *too* Bangy. Snape is supposed to be a good guy, after all. And, 'Bring Him In Alive' (to be crucio'ed by Voldemort) isn't much better. So, I will have to go with 'The Devil Made Me Do It', described by Cindy as: >...Snape goes to Voldemort, who sends him after Karkaroff *or else,* > so Snape -- deeply conflicted > and racked with guilt -- does what he must do. Ah, Snape, deeply conflicted and racked with guilt, doing what he must do! That's the Snape we all know and love! (We do all love him, right? RIGHT?) Snapefan!Judy From kela_bit at netvision.net.il Wed Nov 20 12:31:12 2002 From: kela_bit at netvision.net.il (Klei) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:31:12 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Tom go to school with James? References: <20021119193647.77057.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> <3DDAA1AC.BEB5696@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <3DDB8090.4080601@netvision.net.il> No: HPFGUIDX 46847 jazmyn wrote: > Interesting to note though that Hagrid would have to be in his 60's if > he went to school with Tom 50 years ago. Perhaps Giants have far longer > life spans then humans and being half giant has caused Hagrid to age > slower and might make him equivalent of 30-40 years old? I mean, he > doesn't act 60+ years old at all. > > > Jazmyn Does Dumbeldore act 150? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Katsmall the Wise kela_bit at netvision.net.il [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kela_bit at netvision.net.il Wed Nov 20 12:42:54 2002 From: kela_bit at netvision.net.il (Klei) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:42:54 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Howlers and the ones who get them --- Two more questions about howlers --- Question about messages References: <3DDA9C13.5000502@netvision.net.il> Message-ID: <3DDB834E.1080708@netvision.net.il> No: HPFGUIDX 46848 Grey Wolf wrote: > Klei wrote: > > However, Ron could still dunk the howler in a glass of water, or even > > sit on it to reduce the volume. Why did he not > > do that? > > The howlers have been designed to fulfill their purpose. If it was as > easy as sitting on them, or throwing water, they wouldn't be that > useful, would they? We're taliking about magic here, so if you don't > listen to them, they explode. They know if they're being listened, so > if you sit on it, you would be sitting on something prone to explode at > any moment (not a good idea), and there is nothing in the books that > makes us think that water will stop magic - quite the reverse, actually > since the Dr. Filibuster fireworks don't need fire: they ignite with > humidity. The water is too decrease the sound level. Though when thinking about it the howlers *are* magical, and there is a great chance that you are right. There probably is a way, and one day I hope to find it. > [...] > Hope that helps, > > Grey Wolf It does indeed. Thanks, Grey Wolf. As I'm writing this post, I'm listening to Jay Leno talking about the Chamber of Secrets :-) "Hairless Pothead and the Chambel of Twinkies". Hmm. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Katsmall the Wise kela_bit at netvision.net.il [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kela_bit at netvision.net.il Wed Nov 20 13:00:10 2002 From: kela_bit at netvision.net.il (Klei) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:00:10 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius the Slytherin (and old classmates References: <2b.3169714e.2b0c34a6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DDB875A.8080809@netvision.net.il> No: HPFGUIDX 46849 Audra1976 at aol.com wrote: > James Potter, Lily Evans, Remus Lupin, Sirius Black, Peter Pettigrew, > Severus > Snape, Evan Rosier, Wilkes, Avery, the future Lestranges, and Bertha > Jorkins > were all at Hogwarts in the 70s. Barty Crouch was probably a few years > behind them. > > Anyone care to add to that? > > Audra Was Bertha Jorkins Bertha Jorkins at the time? Katsmall the Wise kela_bit at netvision.net.il From kela_bit at netvision.net.il Wed Nov 20 12:35:13 2002 From: kela_bit at netvision.net.il (Klei) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:35:13 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] 7th Child - Parseltongue (was How did Ginny open the chamber?) References: <20021119224958.15725.qmail@web21403.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3DDB8181.5040706@netvision.net.il> No: HPFGUIDX 46850 Sherry Garfio wrote: > And Katsmall added: > > That would also make Harry a non-Parseltongue-speaker because he's an > > only child. > > Now I say: > Harry didn't inherit Parseltongue from Slytherin through Lily; as > Dumbledore > proposed, and many on this list have quoted, the gift was transferred > to him > when Voldemort tried to kill him as a baby. > > Sherry Indeed you are right. My mistake ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Katsmall the Wise kela_bit at netvision.net.il [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 15:52:30 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:52:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who was in school with Voldemort? ?(Was: Re: Did Tom go to school with James?) In-Reply-To: <3F556B34.7EDD3A45.022D3A68@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021120155230.51876.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46851 Audra1976 at aol.com wrote: Yes, McGonagall is a few years older than Voldemort, but their time at Hogwarts definitely would have overlapped. A few others who might have been students at Hogwarts in Riddle's day based on their probable ages: Neville's Great Uncle Algie and Great Aunt Enid, Ron's Uncle Bilius, Harry's paternal grandparents, Arabella Figg, Mundungus Fletcher, Mad-Eye Moody, Nott (the older Death Eater). That's all I can think of at the moment. Me: On what are you basing this? According to JKR, McGonagall is about 75 years old. If she meant 75 in 1995, or at the end of Harry's fifth year, that would make her born in 1920, so she'd be seven years older than Riddle and finishing school just before he'd be starting. If JKR meant that she'd reached that age earlier in the series, that would make McGonagall born in the late teens (1916-1919) and out of school even sooner. It's possible that Neville's great uncle or aunt are siblings or one of them is a sibling-in-law to his gran, but we still don't have any way of knowing how old any of them are. Where are you getting Ron's Uncle Bilius being in school at the same time as Riddle? (Especially as an uncle is probably a sibling to one of his parents, who seem to be about ten years younger than Riddle, roughly.) Or any of the others, for that matter? There is absolutely no information in canon concerning the ages of any of these people. Why not speculate that Sprout, Sinistra, Vector, Pomfrey or Hooch were in school with Riddle while you're at it? Not to mention Barty Crouch, Sr., Basil from the Ministry, or Arthur's co-worker, Perkins. Being part of the "old crowd" (Figg and Fletcher) may in fact mean that they're closer to Dumbledore's age than Riddle's. And I have no idea why you think Nott is so old. Riddle would have been in school between 1938 and 1945, and the only people--in canon--who were also in school at the same time are Hagrid and Myrtle. Just because someone is older than Harry doesn't mean they were necessarily in school during the particular seven years that Riddle was. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Nov 20 16:58:53 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:58:53 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Saboteur!Snape's Next Mission(WAS Assassin!Snape's next Victim) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46852 The oak doors swing wide once again at the TBAY saloon, otherwise known as The Pink Flamingo Bar, as if blown open by a gust of wind. The full moon rides out from the clouds above the storm-wracked bay just long enough to cast a giant shadow into the room. From far away comes a drawn out shuddering howl, and the faint churning of a magical kitchen appliance. A cloaked figure enters-- Everyone relaxes as they realize it's only Pippin. Well, almost everyone. Cindy looks nervous. Pippin has never shown a proper amount of respect for the big paddle. Pippin ignores her for the moment and addresses herself to George, stroking his hair and sliding a slender hand over the ruffled silk shirt. "I think, actually I'm going to go with George on this one." "You are?" George looks immensely flattered. Pippin has never paid the slightest attention to him before. But he seems a little uneasy as her gaze settles on his throat. "Oh, yes. Even though I think Snape is a part-vampire, like me, and bangs just by existing. "And you know why? Because, if Snape's errand was at all *bangy*, Rowling would have found a way to show it to us. She wouldn't want us to hear about it second-hand. Harry's right, for once. Snape went to offer his services as a spy to Voldemort and was accepted, after a crucio or two. Not terribly bangy, seeing as how we've already been treated to a first hand account of how it feels. " "Accepted!" Cindy says indignantly. "Just like that? You don't think Voldemort's going to want any *proof*?" Reluctantly, Pippin tears herself from George and turns back to the others. "Oh, he'll want proof. But he hasn't told Snape yet what he's going to ask of him. Oh, no. Snape is having to sweat it out, just like *we* are. "The bang is coming though. Snape will be asked to prove his loyalty..soon. Karkaroff will be captured. MacNair will get to kill him in some nasty, messy and, er, interesting way. Snape will have to watch, helpless, while his old pal (lover?) Karkaroff screams and begs him to help, and Harry gets to see it all via Scar-o-Vison. "The same terrible fate will come to Snape...unless, of course, he can convince Voldemort where his loyalties lie. "Then comes the tie-in with the Dementors. Dumbledore has said that Voldemort will be able to give them more scope for their powers and their pleasures. Sure, when he's taken over. But what has he got now that can compare with the live-in snack bar they've got at Azkaban? Why should the D-men think Voldemort can deliver, that he's stronger than the Ministry? Why indeed, unless he delivers to them the one thing that the Ministry has so far failed to provide...their lawful prey, the one prisoner who got away. "Snape is going after Sirius." Pippin wrapping her cloak about her and slipping off into the night > > Hypothetic Alley: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% > 20Files/hypotheticalley.htm > > Inish Alley: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? > method=reportRows&tbl=13 From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Wed Nov 20 17:24:19 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:24:19 -0000 Subject: TBAY - Snape the Killer (WAS Re: Assassin!Snape's Next Victim) In-Reply-To: <172.11e22a9e.2b0c276e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46853 "Hello everybody!" calls out Eileen, wandering into the Royal George Pub. Everyone stares at her. She realizes that they have been in here too long to appreciate her blithe chipperness. Everyone that is, but a woman in the corner who stands up with a smile on her face and... "Julia Charis!" cries Eileen. "Long time, no see! We've been bemoaning your disapearance for a while. Elkins even sent me a snippet of one of your old posts with the header "I miss Charis Too." And when I referenced you in my Crouch post, I was just praying that you would come back. What do you have to enlighten us today?" "Something very simple. Dumbledore wouldn't order Snape to kill Karkaroff, and Snape isn't going to do something Dumbledore would condemn." "Very good," said Eileen. Marina and Cindy glare at her. "A butterbeer, George" says Eileen. "Wimpy Canadian," mutters Cindy. "You don't understand real drinks or real big bangs." "But I like butterbeer" protests Eileen. "And I like my Snape Georgian." "Here you are," says George, with a heartstopping smile. "Here," says Cindy wildly. "I'll explain it all. With diagrams!" "Cindy, I understand it," says Eileen. "I just don't like it. That is all. You can not argue with the choice of the soul." "Of the soul, I can say nothing," said Cindy. "But speaking in the interests of the public..." (1) "Is that Avery over in the corner?" interrupts Eileen. She rushes up to the corner. "Aves, you really shouldn't be drinking so much brandy. Dangerous stuff." Avery sighs, and pours himself another glass. "George, you shouldn't let him continue with this self-destructive behaviour," objects Eileen. "Drowns the remorse, though," snickers Cindy. "What's wrong, Aves?" asks Eileen. "You mean other than kidnapping him, selling Avery Hall to the condominium developers, using the proceeds to buy a hovercraft that you don't even use, re-enacting the "Forgive us all!" scene in front of his eyes, making him slave away for the Fantastic Posts people, and generally bossing him about?" asks Julia Charis. "Well, yes," says Eileen. "I think I know what might be wrong with him," says a newcomer. "I told him my theory and it seemed to depress him. Hi, I'm Wendy. Is there another Wendy on the list?" "Not that I know of," says Eileen. "Wendy, can I confess that I wanted to be a Wendy when I was a kid?" Wendy smiles politely. "I'm just not up to trying an actual TBAY post myself, so this will just be a plain old response," she says. "And I'm not up to trying plain old responses," says Eileen with a grin, "so this will just be a TBAY post. Everyone should feel free to switch in and out of TBAY, as long as it's headed properly. After all, it's all canon discussion." "Thankyou," said Wendy. "I am fascinated by this new theory of Cindy's, but I see you're not." "Oh, I don't know. I heard you talking about Dumbledore not approving of killing Snape. I thought that was a lovely litle point." "I suppose that MAGIC DISHWASHER Dumbledore might not have a problem with this? But I don't subscribe to that theory in any case)," said Wendy. "I'm not sure about MAGIC DISHWASHER Dumbledore," says Eileen. "He confuses me. I do want to see that metapost Grey Wolf is proposing. But anyway, I'm with you about Dumbledore. What about Snape?" "OK. I certainly believe that horrendously awful things were done by Death Eaters. Rape, torture, murder, pretty much any sort of atrocity you can think of are all within the realm of possibility. But it was only OTHER Death Eaters who did those things. Not my precious Snape. Oops. Did I say precious? (Yes, I must admit I count myself among the "SnapeFan" population here)" "Aves darling," says Eileen, "don't worry." "What's wrong with him anyway?" asked Wendy. "You've hit on Avery's sore point," says Eilene with a smile. "Seriously, though, I don't believe that Snape, as a Death Eater, ever directly killed anyone," continues Wendy. (Avery groans.) "Or perhaps killed just one person and the emotional aftermath of that for him was enough to send him running back to Dumbledore's camp," Wendy adds. (George moans.) "Look, who are those two?" asks Wendy, "And why do they look like they've just swallowed poison?" "This is Avery, Death Eater, one of Snape's gang of Slytherins, a nerveless hysteric and sycophant. And this is George, a Snapetheory," says Eileen. "And while your opinion on Snape is common enough, I don't subscribe to it. You see, I think it really cheapens Snape's redemption story to say he never was as horrible as those others. "Nothing like Avery and the rest, who were complete sadists." That by the way is why Avery's upset. Where's Elkins? Why plagiarize her when I can have her speak for herself?" "The storm is coming," says Elkins, who is furiously working on the LupiFAQ, her glass of wine untouched. "Yes, I know, but could you spare a moment to talk about Snape?" "Oh yes, Snape. Let's see. "Antagonism to Remus Lupin," especially "Is Snape as edgey as Lupin?" That'd be posts..." "Forget Lupin for a moment. Just pure, unadulterated Snape, with a side helping of shades-of-grey DE friends," says Eileen, taking the Lupin posts from Elkins' hands. Elkins moans. "Oh all right," she says. "Message 33804: Hello. Newbie here, bleary and dry-eyed and trembling from weeks of staring at the computer screen reading old posts, and now finally ready to de-lurk with a few comments on Snape, the DEs,and the Longbottoms." Let's see. I think this is what you want. " We hear a great deal about Rowling's statement of intent to show how genuinely *bad* evil is in these books, and I laud that sentiment. But evil is also *complicated,* and there are times when I find myself wishing that Rowling would run a little further with that particular ball." "I followed that up," continues Elkins, "in a later post: Message 35196, "And I think that that tension, that contrast between Snape's instincts and his intellect, has always been central to how I've read the character. I do not, for example, tend to see Snape as a person struggling with conflicting impulses, precisely. Rather, I tend to see him as someone whose *impulses* all lead him in one unerring direction -- but in a direction that he has chosen to reject on abstract and purely philosophical grounds. In other words, I see him as a Dark Wizard. In instinct. In impulse. In inclination. To some extent, perhaps even in essence. But by choosing not to act on those instincts and inclinations and tastes and desires, he manages to be something slightly different. Grey. Neither fish nor fowl, as you wrote, but neither fish nor fowl in a slightly different *way,* I think, than many others have read him. The suggestion that Snape left the DEs because when it came right down to it, he lacked a taste for torture or murder, for example, has always left me a bit cold because in my reading of Snape, of *course* he has a taste for it. A taste for it is *exactly* what he's got. His taste for it...well, that's sort of his problem, isn't it? It comes to the same thing, in many ways. But it leads to a lot of different assumptions. I, for example, assume that of *course* Snape would enjoy the company of the sort of people who become Death Eaters (at least, to whatever extent he enjoys company at all). They would share his tastes, and his inclinations, and his aesthetics, and his interests, and probably his sense of humor as well. They wouldn't share his *principles,* of course, which is the sticking point, but on grounds of pure compatability, they would be far better companionship for him than the vast majority of the people who *do* share his principles." "There, may I go back to my LupiFAQ?" says Elkins peevishly. "Yes, thankyou," says Eileen. "So, Wendy, there you have it. We've debated about it on the list beforehand, and I think we could do with another debate again. Fascinating little topic. Pippin, leave George alone." Pippin glares in Eileen's general direction. "I thought you weren't paying me any attention," she complains. "In TBAY, one can listen to two conversations at once," says Eileen. "Interesting theory there with Sirius, but would Dumbledore approve?" Eileen (1) - That little exchange is from G.K. Chesterton's "The Napoleon of Notting Hill" - hilarious little book. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Nov 20 17:52:32 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:52:32 -0000 Subject: CoS theories, Why not Draco, Colin's camera Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46854 The question has been raised as to how Lucius could have framed Ginny without clearing Hagrid. That is why I think the petrifications were intentional--so that the restored victims would be available to confirm that Ginny had attacked them after Ginny herself had been disposed of. I think what Lucius planned was that just before the victims were revived, the Diary would force Ginny to write a detailed confession, including that Hagrid showed her how to open the Chamber. After that she would be got rid of: driven insane, killed (without becoming a ghost), or just "disappeared". There would be nothing to indicate the Diary was responsible and Arthur Weasley would be utterly discredited by his daughter's fall, just as Barty Crouch Sr. was by the defection of his son. Tom might have preferred Draco to Ginny as a host, but Lucius wouldn't want Draco involved. Even if Lucius were willing to sacrifice his son, Draco could tell the Diary far too much about Lucius himself. Riddle's plan was, of course, quite different. I wonder if Tom thought Harry might be a descendant of his? Anyway, once Tom had escaped, Harry was dead and the Chamber sealed again, there would be nothing Lucius could do. I don't think Riddle would be the slightest bit interested in rescuing his failed older self from Albania, either. He hasn't got much use for losers. I don't think that Lucius believed that the "real" Voldemort could come back, at least until the Dark Mark started to reappear on his arm in GoF. I think he has never been persuaded that immortality was possible without the Stone. He's very invested in Draco's future. Why should he be if he thinks he himself can live forever? I believe Lucius is now praying that Voldemort "I forgot" has forgotten all about the Very Secret Diary and never asks what became of it. How much Pettigrew could have learned about the Diary or the Chamber while he was Scabbers isn't clear. The connection between Voldemort, Riddle and the Heir isn't discussed in canon anywhere but in McGonagall's office and the Chamber itself. It wouldn't be a matter for casual conversation between Ron and Harry or in the Weasley house. I think the Weasleys treated themselves to that vacation in Egypt with the idea of putting the whole sad business behind them. Wormtail might never have found out that Tom Riddle and Voldemort were the same until the night of the Graveyard, and even then, he might not know that Lucius was the one who planted the Diary on Ginny. We don't know if Harry ever told anyone that. I somehow don't think the Weasleys would have sat in the Top Box with the Malfoys if they had known. I don't see Arthur Weasley offering even a "strained smile" to the man who tried to destroy his daughter. BBoy asks >>Q: Why did't Myrtle's glasses protect her? A: Because glasses or no glasses, she still looked DIRECTLY into the eyes of the basilisk. The only other person to look at the basilisk through a lense was Colin. So why was he protected and not Myrtle? The only way to explain this is to assume that Colin was using a 35mm SLR camera or a box camera where you look DOWN into view finder that is mounted flat on the top of the camera. Does anyone know what I mean by this second camera, and do you know what the proper term for this type is? << Are you talking about a twin lens reflex camera? That has two lenses, one above the other. The viewfinder is mounted on top of the camera and the photographer sees the image reversed left right, reflected by a mirror at a 45 degree angle behind the top lens. When you squeeze the shutter button the picture is taken through the bottom lens. A typical 35 mm single lens reflex (SLR) camera has the same kind of mirror, plus a prism arrangement so that you see the image in the viewfinder right side up and unreversed, but there's only one lens. When you snap a picture, the mirror moves up out of the light path a moment before the shutter opens, which causes the image in the viewfinder to black out. I don't think that kind of camera would have worked with your theory. Colin would have been petrified before he took the picture and the film wouldn't have been ruined. I am afraid we are being way too technical here, since Rowling took dramatic license in the Hospital Wing scene. Either that, or she knows zilch about photography. If Colin *had* managed to capture his attacker on film, the image would have been ruined anyway when Albus opened the camera, exposing the undeveloped film to light. Pippin sometime photography student From timregan at microsoft.com Wed Nov 20 18:04:55 2002 From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:04:55 -0000 Subject: Why not draco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46855 Hi All, --- In HPforGrownups, "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: > There have been a lot of thoeries about why Lucious gave the diary > to ginny, but why would he not give it to draco? It would work > just as well and draco might even be a willing subject. Even if > not, his dad could have kept him imprisoned until tom fully took > over. Why risk it all on ginny? Apologies if this has been said already ? I cannot open message 46835. Lucius intended Ginny to be caught and the resulting slur would have discredited Arthur's Muggle Protection Act. Giving Draco the book would have potentially discredited Lucius ? not a good idea! Here's Dumbledore on the subject: "Because if Harry here [ ] and his friend Ron hadn't discovered the book, why ? Ginny Weasley might have taken all the blame. No one would ever have been able to prove she hadn't acted of her own free will [ ] And imagine, [ ] what might have happened then The Weasleys are one of our most prominent pure-blood families, Imagine the effect on Arthur Weasley, and his Muggle Protection Act, if his own daughter was discovered attacking and killing Muggle-borns." Dumbledore, UK CoS paperback, p. 247 So I think Lucius' plan was to give Ginny the book, have Riddle kill a bunch of Muggle borns through Ginny, remove Dumbledore from Hogwarts, and then expose Ginny and stop the killings. The net result would be a Dumbledore free Hogwarts which Muggles were too frightened to send their children to and no Muggle Protection Act. This would not work with Draco. But Tom changed the plan when Ginny told him all about Harry. Tom decided to kill Harry, and for that he needed his body back and hence Ginny had to die. He couldn't risk killing Harry through Ginny since he knew she loved Harry and hence might resist. Cheers, Dumbledad. From timregan at microsoft.com Wed Nov 20 18:14:00 2002 From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:14:00 -0000 Subject: CoS theories, Why not Draco, Colin's camera In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46856 Hi All, --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > or a box camera where you look DOWN into view finder that is > mounted flat on the top of the camera. Does anyone know what I > mean by this second camera, and do you know what the proper term > for this type is? It's a twin lens reflex http://photographytips.com/page.cfm/219 They are quieter than the single lens type, and so were useful at some sporting events where concentration of the contestants was key. They are a bit big for Colin though, so I'd stick with the Single Lens Reflex for him. Cheers, Dumbledad. From editor at texas.net Wed Nov 20 18:38:10 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:38:10 -0600 Subject: TBAY: PlanB!Snape, was several other varieties of him References: Message-ID: <001001c290c3$feaf02a0$1205a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46857 Cindy was holding forth in the bar, quoting canon: "What was it that Snape had done on Dumbledore's orders, the night that Voldemort had returned? And why . . . *why* . . . was Dumbledore so convinced that Snape was truly on their side? . . . Snape had turned spy against Voldemort, "at great personal risk." Was that the job he taken up again? Had he made contact with the Death Eaters, perhaps? Pretended that he had never really gone over to Dumbledore, that he had been, like Voldemort, biding his time?" *********** "I mean," Cindy said, "would you *look* at that set-up? How can JKR waltz up to us in OoP and say, 'Oh, no, Snape didn't have anything to do with Voldemort at the end of GoF.' Nah, she's stuck. She just needs a convincing way to explain why Voldemort would take Snape back." Cindy reached over and grabbed the last peanuts from the basket while Charis and Marina gaped at her. The only sound in the Tavern was the sound of salted nuts being crushed between teeth. -------------------- An owl deftly swooped between the window shutters as they banged in the wind, and settled delicately atop Cindy's paddle as it leaned against the bar. It extended its leg toward Cindy, who removed the fat purple envelope tied there. The envelope bore, in elegant calligraphy, the words "A Convincing Way to Explain Why Voldemort Would Take Snape Back." Cindy tore it open and read aloud to the bar: "I like the bangy way you think, Cindy, but honestly, all the scenarios you have put forward pretty much have all the explaining of Snape's task happening relatively soon (say, in the next book). I think there will be details and ramifications of it we won't understand until book 7; you must learn to spread out your bangs. "There is a perfectly good reason Voldemort would take Snape back, bearing anyone's head or not. Voldemort, unexpectedly, needs him. We'll call him PlanB!Snape. "Think back to the graveyard scene. This was to be Voldemort's triumphant return. He has impressively risen, called his followers to him, and is going to reassert himself as the most powerful sorcerer in the world. He'll start with a little cruel fun, squashing Harry Potter to a smear on the ground in a very one-sided duel, before they set off to pick up where they left off. "And it starts off just grand, but then the whole wand-effect thing kicks in. Voldemort orders the DEs not to help, and then, looky here, the little brat *escapes.* Canon follows Harry; we are not privy to what takes place in the graveyard just after Harry's escape. Oh, to be a fly on a gravestone! "Harry has escaped, in a sense defeating Voldemort *again,* or at the very least, showing himself able to resist him. This first little, easy, enjoyable exercise to get limbered up has gone awry. The shades of the wand tell Harry to use the Cup to escape. And he does. "Which leads to the second serious blow Harry has done to Voldemort. By taking the Cup, he has fouled up the rest of Voldemort's plans. As most of you have heard me hold forth on many occasions, I have always believed the Cup was to take Voldemort and the DEs to the Hogwarts grounds on its return trip, there to make a surprise raid on the assembled, unprepared might of the wizarding world, the children of not only the UK's wizarding population but of other countries as well, and be standing inside Hogwarts, the place of strength into which one cannot apparate. Perhaps the shades of the wand knew this; they were certainly in a position to hear it plotted. In any case, the trip's off; the Cup's gone. "So what the hell is Voldemort going to do, after he straightens up and turns to face his followers? Raving egotists don't take to defeat well. But he cannot be ignorant of the fact that significant doubts will have sprouted in the minds of the DEs, no matter what he does. This time they were all standing there *watching* Harry Potter get away from their master and he can't spin it any different. He's going to be doing a lot of blustering and Crucio'ing and "where *were* you all these years?"-type redirecting. And trying to figure out what to do. Voldemort is nothing if not single-minded. He's been carefully building and pursuing this elegant and ingenious plan. He has no ace in his sleeve that we know of, other than the fear he can still inspire in his followers. "Those followers have now seen that he is not infallible. They are afraid of him now, here, in person; but he can't let them leave, apparate away, to dwell on their doubts. He must re-establish himself, in his own most private mind and in their eyes, as a power to be reckoned with, who has places for them all in a plan. "And then someone apparates nearby. Someone thin and pale, whose eyes glitter as he walks steadily up to Voldemort through the ranks of the DEs and bows. "Master." "Voldemort is many things. Stupid is not one of them. If he had managed to kill Harry and return to Hogwarts, Snape would be on the Toast List. But Harry has escaped, Voldemort looks like a fool, he has no other plan ready, and here stands a highly placed administrator, close to Dumbledore, with ready access to Hogwarts and Harry Potter. "I don't believe Voldemort will welcome Snape with open arms. I'm saying Snape will have something he would not have had otherwise--a chance to speak before Voldemort blasts him. And he will tell Voldemort something along the lines of, 'I've spent all these years establishing myself with Dumbledore, until he doesn't have a shred of doubt about my loyalty. Look how successful I have been--even you believed it. I could not come to your side when you summoned us, for I was at Dumbledore's side and events would not let me leave. I came as soon as I could without allowing Dumbledore to doubt me. And I must tell you that Barty Crouch is worse than dead--the Dementors have Kissed him. They know that you have risen again, and how. Harry Potter lives; Crouch did not manage to kill him. Dumbledore is marshaling defenses against you.' "Voldemort, learning that Crouch is now useless to him, will have even more reason to allow Snape his life and use him. Voldemort will doubtless punish Snape, for some reason or none. But I think he will be taken back into the DE ranks (albeit suspected, at least for a while), because Voldemort needs him. His master plan has failed. Snape as his eyes and ears into Hogwarts and the enemy's camp will be Plan B. "Snape's return will put Voldemort once more in a position of power. At least, this is what Voldemort will tell the other DEs, who will never know that this was not planned. He never mentioned the coward and the one who left his service by name; the DEs have never themselves known who all of them are. "Snape will survive his return to Voldemort. Unmarked, for he must go back to Hogwarts. Where he will sit at the ending feast and look into Harry Potter's eyes for a moment, and think his own thoughts. There will be Bangs, Cindy, but I think we'll be strung along for a book or so before we get the big Snape Bang. I think in this case, the obvious thought is the correct one. And I think Porphyria is correct in her interpretation of the glitter and paleness, and Dumbledore (and probably Snape himself) fear that his old way of life will have too much pull to resist a true return. And we, as readers, will not know the truth of that (or the Bang associated therewith) for quite a while." ~Amanda, P.S., L.O.O.N. Cindy, hoarse from reading, fumbled for her glass and took a drink. Then she raised her eyes to the rest, standing at the bar, all watching her in silence. "Well?" she asked them. The owl hooted softly and fluffed its feathers. No one spoke; there was a rustling as positions were shifted. The shutter banged again, nearly hitting the second, tiny, owl that flew in to sit on the bar. It allowed Cindy to take its small purple envelope, then helped itself to her drink. Cindy opened the envelope, noting the "PostScript" calligraphed on the outside, and read "By the way, whoever thinks that Severus Snape would be able to cast a Patronus is deluded. He is clearly a powerful wizard, despite his disdain for "wand-waving," but given his past, I strongly doubt that he has too many memories or thoughts of happiness upon which to draw. Even if he *can* manage one, it certainly won't be strong enough to fend off the assembled presence of all of Azkaban's dementors." ~Amanda A soft "flump" broke the silence after Cindy finished reading this note, as the second owl keeled over onto the bar and hiccuped. From gandharvika at hotmail.com Wed Nov 20 19:06:32 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:06:32 +0000 Subject: (FILK) The Sorting Hat's Song Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46858 The Sorting Hat's Song (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Old Brown Shoe_ by the Beatles) >From their _Hey Jude_ album Have a taste of the original on Real Audio: http://www.blackbird.com.br/indexletras.php The full Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Towers/2838/past2.htm Dedicated to Frankie and the rest of us delinquent Hufflepuffs out there! Delinquent Hufflepuffs Unite! *Professor McGonagall silently placed a four legged stool in front of the first years. On top of the stool she put a pointed wizard's hat, patched, frayed and extremely dirty. The hat twitched. A rip near the brim opened wide like a mouth, and an old piano started to magically play in the corner of the Great Hall. Out of nowhere a band striked up and the hat began to sing: You may not think I'm pretty But I'm not your ordinary chapeau I'm a-singing today Just so that all of you will know I'm the Sorting Hat of this Hogwarts school Yeah, that's what I do I do all the sortin' Reading the thoughts of all of you McGonagall'll pick me up And place me down right on top of your head I'll tell you where you'll go Let me repeat what I've just said I'm the Sorting Hat of this Hogwarts school Yeah, that's what I do I do all the sortin' Reading the thoughts of all of you Perhaps Gryffindor's where you should be They are brave and honor chivalry Or maybe Ravenclaw may be your house If you like to learn and are studious Who knows, baby? You can never tell (musical interlude) Is Hufflepuff the place for you? They are just, loyal, hardworking and true Or will you go to Slytherin? That's the house where the ambitious are in Who knows, baby? You can never tell Now then try me on for size As soon as I'm finished with this song I've never made a mistake I will tell you where you belong I'm the Sorting Hat of this Hogwarts school Yeah, that's what I do I do all the sortin' Reading the thoughts of all of you Yeah, I do all the sortin' Reading the thoughts of all of you -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From pinkfoxranger at yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 13:56:51 2002 From: pinkfoxranger at yahoo.com (pinkfoxranger) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:56:51 -0000 Subject: Patronus charms Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46859 Hi, I am Eva. Just new here. I was wondering something. It seems me very realistic that Demontors will side with Voldemort. This might include an attack on Hogwarts in one of the future books. I seems like Dumbledore to me that the older students learn the Patronus charm. What kind of Patronus would Ron, Hermione and Ginny have? Personally I see Hermione with a Kneazle, Ginny with a Pegasus and Ron I don't know? From mpachuta at hotmail.com Wed Nov 20 16:17:42 2002 From: mpachuta at hotmail.com (mikiep0908) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:17:42 -0000 Subject: The teaser words on JKR's note Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46860 Hello everyone. I'm new here, but like everyone else, I'm trying to fill that empty space that will soon be occupied by the fifth year book. On that note, I'm sure everyone has seen the teaser that is going to be on auction next month. I'm sure that many people are going to be immediately attracted to the word "dies," however, the words that interest me are "Ron" and "broomstick." Does this mean that Ron is about to take Wood's place on the Quidditch team? If he does, this could very weel be the shot at glory that Ron has been craving for so long. What does anyone else think? Thanks! Mike P From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed Nov 20 19:33:36 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:33:36 -0000 Subject: MAGIC DISHWASHER explanation (was: Re: Assassin!Snape's Next Victim) In-Reply-To: <172.11e22a9e.2b0c276e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46861 Wendy wrote: > Hmnh. Is it out of character for Snape? More on that later. My real > problem here is that I find it out of character for Dumbledore. That > assumes, of course, that Dumbledore knows what Snape is being asked > to do. And I just don't see Dumbledore sending Snape off to murder > someone, even someone like Karkaroff. And even if he didn't know > about it beforehand, the truth would surely out once Karkaroff turned > up dead. So, Snape would not only have to conceal his actions from > Dumbledore beforehand, but would have to do some very smooth talking > afterwards to explain it. If Snape were to kill someone in > self-defense, I'm sure Dumbledore would accept that, but not > pre-meditated murder, even for the "common good." And, since I > believe that Dumbledore's opinion is VERY VERY important to Snape, if > Dumbledore doesn't approve, then I'm not sure how Snape would be able > to justify it to himself, let alone to Dumbledore or anyone else. (I > suppose that MAGIC DISHWASHER Dumbledore might not have a problem > with this? But I don't subscribe to that theory in any case). > > Wendy It seems that the issue is still confused (that is one of the reasons I decided to do a poll on MAGIC DISHWASHER in the first place). No matter how many times we try and explain it, MD is still pretty obscure. Of course, I'm not going to remember to answer this question in a month (although hopefully if I finally do the unifying post it will be answered), and besides, waiting a month for an answer is no fun, so I'm going to tackle this one right away. No, MAGIC DISHWASHER does *NOT* have an Evil!Dumbledore. It has a spymaster!Dumbledore, which is very different. So far, the books have shown Dumbledore to be a person very free at giving second chances and in general someone who would never deliberately kill another being. His self-given task is to protect wizards and muggles from Voldemort, not to do his dirty work. So far, none of the possible master plans proposed by MAGIC DISHWASHER includes murder of any kind (with the exception of what they're planning to do with Voldemort himself, although he could, in principle, be redeemed). Why does MAGIC DISHWASHER has such a bad image, then, to the point of having Wendy say that she doesn't subscribe to the theory *in any case,* even though she doesn't understand it? It's as if it was *wrong* to believe in MAGIC DISHWASHER, and Wendy makes it look it so: no matter what MAGIC DISHWASHER defends, she will not be part of it. (Yes, I'm hurt by that comment. I hope it shows). I suspect that the problem probably comes from one of the last attacks on the theory: that Dumbledore was evil because he had helped to resurrect Voldemort. This is partialy true: Dumbledore needs Voldemort to be mortal so it can be destroyed (or redeemed, or whatever), and has guided Voldemort into using a potion that is flawed. This method has caused accidental deaths, and this is what the attack used to say that Dumbledore is respoinsible for Voldemort's actions. The fact that, left to his own devices, Voldemort would've killed many more people has been ignored by the oposition (IIRC, the last time that point was debated, I proposed a simple moral problem: if you are faced with a building in flames, and you can only save a room with eight people, or one with two, what would you do? I was told that, no matter what you chose, you'd be evil. I certainly don't agree with that reasoning). After all, the other option (i.e, if they hadn't helped Voldemort to use the potion) was that Dumbledore et co. should sit on their backsides and grow cobwebs while Voldemort used his very own method to come back, maybe even managing to become inmortal and have a body at the same time. Maybe it wouldn't have happened in Dumbledore's or even Harry's lifetime, but Vapour!Voldemort is immortal (a vapour cannot grow old, so he could go on possesing animals for centuries), and if Dumbledore hadn't done anything, Voldemort could've waited until he had been all but forgotten, possesed some wizard that passed though his forest a couple of centuries later and come back. At that point, many people would die (and certainly many more than in the books so far, or even in total). It comes down to: what is the most sensible tactical decision: to have an enemy that is going to attack come to you in your own terms, or in his terms? I certainly believe that it is best to have him come in your own terms. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who wishes to remind everyone that this is, at best, a minor consideration within the MAGIC DISHWASHER theory, which is, after all, based around Dumbledore's and Voldemort's actions in the spy war they are waging. From mi_shell16 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 20 19:37:29 2002 From: mi_shell16 at hotmail.com (theresnothingtoit) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:37:29 -0000 Subject: Snape, Spy and Assassin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46862 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Judy" wrote: On Snapes task at the end of GoF: > First, there's the timing. He's sent on the task immediately after > Voldemort's return. Second, it's something that Dumbledore "must ask > of" Snape, which implies that the task is vital and that Snape is the > only one who can do it. Spying on Voldemort fits both of these > criteria. Third, the task is clearly supposed to be dangerous, > judging by Dumbledore's concerned look; spying on Voldemort certain > fits this criterion as well. The timeing issue interests me here. Snape has to go imediatly on "The Task" and sweeps out of the room. My little theory on this is Snape must use the time turner and nip back a couple of hours to visit the DE family reunion. That is why he starts when Harry begins to name the Death Eaters, if Snape is mentioned as not attending then there can be no hope of a little time turning (I follow the notion that traveling back in time is almost like explaining Quantum Physics - Hermione can not go back to Charms once Harry and Ron tell her she wasn't there). > So, the big problem is "Why in the world would Voldemort take Snape > back, after Snape went over to Dumbledore's side?" A difficult > question, but I can think of several reasons: > > 1) Voldemort doesn't want to believe that Snape actually was spying on > him. > > It's well known that Snape was a double-agent by the end of VoldeWar > I. But, that still leaves Voldemort with the question of whose side > Snape was *really* on. Voldemort has two choices. He can believe > that (A) Snape was working for Dumbledore and spying on Voldemort, > while Voldemort was dumb enough to trust him; or (B) Snape was > working for Voldemort and spying on Dumbledore, while Dumbledore was > dumb enough to trust him. > > So, which will Voldemort believe? Remember, we're talking about > *Voldemort* here. "Evil Overlord" Voldemort. "I'm the greatest wizard > ever" Voldemort. "Phoenix Tears, I forgot" Voldemort. He's going to > go with choice B. Voldemort will think that Snape was really on his > side all along, and pulled the wool over the eyes of "that fool" > Dumbledore. I think we are missing a key character witness for the theory that Snape is still seen as a DE by those from the Dark Side. Step up Lucius Malfoy and his oddius little son Draco "my dad would vote you head master of Hogwarts, your the best teacher here" Malfoy. Would Voldemorts slippery friend really let his precious son be taught by a traitor. We know Lucius hears about Snape from Dracos comments and I feel they may know each other better then we hear about in canon as well but I'm not too sure on that point. Lucius is clearly very influencial and would quickly point out to Fudge that it was not safe to have an ex-murderer/rapist/generally-all-round-evil guy teaching the future generation no matter how reformed. But a Snape-evil-in- the-eyes-of-the-enemy, well, that's just too good a pawn to sacrafice. Suppose Snape goes to Voldemort at the end > of GoF. I imagine a conversation like the following. > Voldemort: "Bwahahaha, no one can fool me! I can easily tell if you > are loyal to me. Tell me, Snape, my slippery friend, whose side are > you on?" > Snape: "Why, the winning side of course, my Lord. That is why I have > returned to you." > At this point, Voldemort's enormous ego kicks in and he assumes that > "the winning side" is *his* side, even though Snape never said any > such thing. I can see Snape making a good deal of these conversations. Hopefully to Black and infront of Harry. Deep rooting the mistrust Harry feels towards towards his Potions master. Interestingly enough Hermione seems quite happy to trust Snape while Ron believes him about as far as he could through the "greasy-haired-git". I can here a good many "I told you so" conversations between those two. On getting Voldemort to definatly welcome him back into the fold: > First, Karkaroff tried to save his own hide by putting Snape in > Azkaban. I can just picture a flashback to Karkaroff telling Snape, > "I'm sorry I tried to sacrifice you, but I had no choice -- you > understand, don't you?" followed by Snape about to AK Karkaroff > and saying, "I'm sorry I have to sacrifice you, but I have no choice > -- you understand, don't you?" Wow! I love this little scene you have constructed. It bangs in oscar worthy-ness if not in action. But I would love to see it played out. Unfortuatly we have the whole - book is written through Harry's eyes - but I am sure JKR would some how work this scene in. Interestingly enough I am looking forward to when Snape meets Mrs Lestange fresh out of Azkaban. She, ofcourse, will not have been driven mad as she believes herself to be completly inocent and Dementors feed off guilt. I see her as a typical evil-lady leather thiegh highs and all. She does not believe a word that Snape is on the dark side and tortures him long and hard infront of Black and Potter so he suffers the indignity of screaming agony infront of his two enemys. Oh, and Longbottem might be there as well, Snape and Neville are connected in a way I have not quite figured out yet, but that is a whole other post. > Furthermore, if Snape returns to spying on Voldemort, Karkaroff will > have to be assassinated by *someone*, due to Voldeort's "One DE that > has left me forever, one too cowardly to return" statement. I believe > that, at the time of the graveyard scene, Voldemort believed Snape had > left him forever and planned to kill him, while planning to punish > Karkaroff for being too cowardly to return > graveyard. Why is everyone convinced that Snape is the DE that has left Voldemort forever. It is just so, so, obvious, so Agatha Chirstie. The readers are ment to go - ah-ha, I'm so clever that I managed to work out who those three Death Eaters were. But there is someone else who disappears at the end of GoF. Someone else who is slightly suspect, who *would* be fool enough not to turn up when his tattoo burned. Ludo Bagman. ----------- --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > Why should the D-men think Voldemort > can deliver, that he's stronger than the Ministry? Why indeed, > unless he delivers to them the one thing that the Ministry has so > far failed to provide...their lawful prey, the one prisoner who got > away. > > "Snape is going after Sirius." Woah! I can here the bang from here! Of course I am part of the group that, well I say group - really there is only me, that believes that Sirius Black is ever so evil. Snape gets to take him down and thus avenge himself years of teenage torment plus the fact Black screwed up his attempts to save the Potters, and Harry sees the adult he trusts almost more than Dumbledore turn evil and be brought down by his worst enemy. More on this topic latter. But I do like this bang. Theresnothingtoit (who really should get back to her Calculus homework) From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Nov 20 19:41:24 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:41:24 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] TBAY: Assassin!Snape Meets Saboteur!Snape (WAS Saboteur!S... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46863 George's Bar was busier than it had been in ages, although it was strangely quiet as everyone listened to Cindy holding forth on her latest theory to Charis Julia, > "So let's consider the next variant -? Snape doesn't kill Karkaroff > himself. I mean, where's the fun in that? No, instead there's > the 'Bring Him In Alive' variant. Snape apprehends Karkaroff and > brings him to Voldemort alive -- furs and all. Snape is able to > prove his loyalty to Voldemort without getting any, er, blood on his > hands, so to speak. Now, if Karkaroff had his choice, he would > probably prefer that Snape go with 'Karkaroff's Head On A Stake,' > frankly. 'Cause you *know* what Karkaroff's fate is under 'Bring > Him In Alive.' Let's just say that there will be a great lot of > screaming, begging, weeping and sniveling and leave it at that. > It's Bangy -- if you, uh, like that sort of thing. "If you don't mind my interrupting," said the blonde Englishwoman with rather too much jewellery, who was washing up the glasses behind the bar, "It's not that I don't like that kind of thing..." "Diana? Behind a bar? Enjoying Banging?" " Yes, well the castle refurbishment is taking rather longer than I expected. Mess everywhere and nothing getting done. I left Porphyria in charge, but she's been a bit preoccupied finishing some magnus opus recently and that Eloise is so underworked at the OFH that she's taken another job in some office and gets home each night covered in dust and cobwebs and rabbiting incoherently about archival messages. She's no fun at all. So brother George has taken me in.......only he expects me to work for the privilege," she said, looking with distaste at her long rubber gloves and frilly apron. "So you think that Snape *could* be going to betray Karkaroff? I thought you disapproved of Banging and this version's virtually *Bent*" Diana gave Cindy a penetrating look. "I have no intrisic objection to Banging," she said, "It all depends on the circumstances. I merely state that Snape's joining and leaving the DEs has nothing to do with Banging, but that it is to do with a change in his philosophical outlook; that he now recognises the morality, the distinction between good and evil that Voldemort and his followers deny. But, as you imply, the 'Bring Him In Alive' scenario is actually worse than killing him outright. If Snape *is* as ethical as some of us would like to believe, I can't see him kidding himself that there's any moral superiority in letting Voldemort do his own dirty work instead of doing it, more mercifully, for him. The end result is the same: he's killed him, just as Sirius said he'd killed Lily and James." > > "And then there is the safest Assassin!Snape variant for those with > weak stomachs ?- the traditional 'The Devil Made Me Do It' variant. > Snape goes to Voldemort, who sends him after Karkaroff *or else,* so > Snape ?- deeply conflicted and racked with guilt -? does what he > must do. "You know, Cindy, I haven't been able to help overhearing some of your conversations recently and I think you're actually beginning to understand Severus just a little bit. " "You do?" "Yes, and you're almost beginning to sound sympathetic..." Cindy made a sudden movement designed perhaps to communicate complete dissent, perhaps that Diana had hit her mark, or perhaps merely to cause confusion to the reader, but before she could say anything, Diana continued, "But you're wrong. Snape is principled. Vengeful, grudge-bearing, but principled. I do not believe for one minute that even if Voldemort ordered him to kill Karkaroff, 'or else' he would simply do it in cold blood. Sure it would save his own neck - but this is the man who's already changed sides 'at great personal risk'. Sure he should have a grudge against Karkaroff for his attempt at betrayal, but if Karkaroff has no connection with Voldemort anymore, he is not an enemy of Dumbledore and he has no current justifiable reason to kill him." "But what about Sirius?" "He thought that Sirius really had betrayed Lily and James and that he really had murdered all those Muggles and that he really was after Harry. We have no evidence that Snape would willingly betray a man on the grounds of personal grudge alone." "So, as I say, deeply conflicted and racked with guilt." "No, I still don't buy it. He'd be worse than conflicted; he'd have betrayed the very principles that I believe led him away from the DEs in the first place by killing a man in cold blood, to save his own skin. Even if it did further the cause by securing his position within Voldemort's organisation." Undaunted, Cindy continued, "This one is probably the most canonical, I think, because > > the set-up in 'GoF: The Beginning' is so very strong: > > ********* > > "What was it that Snape had done on Dumbledore's orders, the night > that Voldemort had returned? And why . . . *why* . . . was > Dumbledore so convinced that Snape was truly on their side? . . . > Snape had turned spy against Voldemort, "at great personal risk." > Was that the job he taken up again? Had he made contact with the > Death Eaters, perhaps? Pretended that he had never really gone over > to Dumbledore, that he had been, like Voldemort, biding his time?" > > *********** > > "I mean," Cindy said, "would you *look* at that set-up? How can JKR > waltz up to us in OoP and say, 'Oh, no, Snape didn't have anything > to do with Voldemort at the end of GoF.' Nah, she's stuck. She > just needs a convincing way to explain why Voldemort would take > Snape back." "Oh, I agree, if Snape *isn't* going back to Voldemort, that's a gigantic piece of misdirection. Now maybe she could pull that off, maybe not. I personally tend to take it at face value. And yes, she will have to explain to us why Voldemort would take him back. Unless Voldemort just gleams at us." "Gleams?" "Yes. You know, ' "But how do you know you can trust him, Master?" Voldemort fixed Wormtail with his gleaming red eyes. "That, Wormtail, is between Severus Snape and myself." ' " Eloise Getting into a fix with her inverted commas. Hypothetic Alley: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hypotheticalley.html Inish Alley: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed Nov 20 19:51:44 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:51:44 -0000 Subject: Serpents and Parseltongue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46864 Julie wrote: > So -- Maybe Harry did get his Parselmouth fluency during > Voldemort's attack, but the fear it inspires among other wizards > seems based completely on prejudice due to the Slytherin crowd > having used it to control serpents and make weapons of them. [changing into metathinking mode] Yes, the way the series are going, I think JKR has somewhere in her list to demeonstrate that snakes are not bad, just animals, and that being able to talk to them just means that you're extremelly lucky to have the oportunity to have a pet you can speak with.[turn of metathinking mode] After all, snakes are like any other animal: neither good nor bad. They're dangerous, but so are most animals, in one way or another (with the possible exception of goldfish). The fact that you can speak to the animal does introduce morality into the issue, but the morality of the actions of the snake at that point depends on the morality of the orders themselves. A snake will attack and kill if hungry, but you cannot acuse it of being evil for that. On the other hand, if you train it to attack and kill (even when not hungry) then *you* are evil. I have from time to time heard of animals which will attack for "the pure pleasure of the hunt" (for example, velocirraptors in Jurasic Park), but I have never actually seen such animal in real life, nor (I think) have ever heard of such species. Maybe someone can enlighten me here. But certainly none of the species of Snake I've heard of would ever attack without provocation. > Could there be other good Parselmouths besides Harry? There is at least one other: Voldemort, but I don't think that's the answer you were looking for... Anyway, the answer is: yes, there could. It's a rare gift, but we have not given indication of if "rare", in this case, means "three or four per generation" or "one every three or four generations". As I have pointed out before, though, the fact that Slytherin looked for students with the gift for Slytherin seems to indicate that such children could be found and thus that there can be more than one wizard with parseltongue at the same time. > And, will we see wizards who can speak other animal languages, for > good and/or evil? > > Julie I think we can discount that one, except from a legal point of view: both mermaids and centaurs are technically animals, and you can speak to both, and at least the mermaids have their own language, which you can learn to speak, since Dumbledore knows it. Also, Fantastical Beasts tells us that other magical species have their own language (fairies spring to mind). Without considering that (flimsy) excuse, (after all, we are talking about "muggle" animals), the answer is, IMO, no: if wizards could speak other animals in their own language, parseltongue wouldn't be as feared, and the ability itself wouldn't be considered as strange. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From bloubet at incanmonkey.com Wed Nov 20 19:37:04 2002 From: bloubet at incanmonkey.com (Beth Loubet) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:37:04 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] School Timeline; Life-Debts References: <1037780266.1695.90079.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000c01c290cc$3802a220$7001a8c0@bloubetdellpc> No: HPFGUIDX 46865 SCHOOL TIMELINE >Yes, McGonagall is a few years older than Voldemort, but their time at Hogwarts >definitely would have overlapped. A few others who might have been students at >Hogwarts in Riddle's day based on their probable ages: Neville's Great Uncle >Algie and Great Aunt Enid, Ron's Uncle Bilius, Harry's paternal grandparents, >Arabella Figg, Mundungus Fletcher, Mad-Eye Moody, Nott (the older Death >Eater). That's all I can think of at the moment. > >Audra Me: What about Sprout? I can't remember exactly how old she's supposed to be, but I had always had the vague impression that she's about the same age as McGonagall. Yes? LIFE-DEBTS From: "Eric Oppen" >It states, clearly, several times in The Texts Themselves that "for one >wizard/witch to save the life of another creates a bond between them." This >is why, among other things, Snape is trying to save Harry's life even though >he detests the little dratsab (spelled backwards because some folks may read >this list on machines where nannyware is required) and why Dumbledore isn't >too displeased that Pettigrew/Wormtail, with that life-debt to Harry Potter, >is now Voldie's right-(silver)-hand man. Hmm... I'm new, and this may have been mentioned before. If so, I apologize. But -- doesn't that mean that LV has a life-debt to Harry? Without Harry's blood, he wouldn't be alive in his new body. It makes me wonder, too. Could a life-debt to Lily be what made LV hesitate to kill her? And could his bodily destruction actually have been due to his murder of Lily, rather than to the attempt to kill Harry? (I have to imagine that a life-debt to a mudblood would only have driven Tom Riddle even farther around the bend...) It might also explain LV's ability to touch Harry now. Part of Harry's protection from Lily isn't necessary now -- LV can get close to Harry because he's under a life-debt to him. No wizard in his right mind would try to kill someone they have a life-debt to. Of course, we all know about LV and that "right mind" clause... This has been a bit rambly, and probably has holes in it big enough to drive a lorry through, but I thought it was worth a go. Have at! bel From i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca Wed Nov 20 20:18:17 2002 From: i_am_erasmas at yahoo.ca (i_am_erasmas) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:18:17 -0000 Subject: Serpents and Parseltongue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46866 "Julie Stahlhut" wrote: > Could there be other good Parselmouths besides Harry? And, > will we see wizards who can speak other animal languages, for > good and/or evil? I think it likely that Ginny has been left with the gift after her possession. I really do hope that Harry, and possibly Ginny, get an opportunity to develop this gift, and indeed to accept it as a gift despite its origins. I don't see why parselmouth would be the only animal communication skill. There's some evidence that Sirius/Padfoot and Crookshanks had some fairly high level communication. Whether that means that dogs and cats have mutually intelligible languages, or that Crookshanks has a gift for interspecies communication is another question. I'll be keeping my eyes open for this type of thing though. I do expect to run across at least one character that can talk to cats (maybe Mrs. Figg). Erasmas From fun_n_games_2663 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 20:27:07 2002 From: fun_n_games_2663 at yahoo.com (fun_n_games_2663) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:27:07 -0000 Subject: Why not draco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46867 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tim Regan" wrote: > Lucius intended Ginny to be caught and the resulting slur would have > discredited Arthur's Muggle Protection Act. Giving Draco the book > would have potentially discredited Lucius ? not a good idea! snip I would like to add a theory here. While I believe Dumbledore was right, that Lucius intended for Ginny to be caught and to discredit Arthur, I don't necessarily believe it was to discredit the Muggle Protection Act. I think that Lucius had been writing in the diary to Riddle and they devised the plan to plant to diary with a Weasley. I think that they had some form of plan for bringing LV back. Part of that plan required that Arthur be out of the way. I also think that Arthur, while a muggle loving softy, is going to turn out to be a DE tail kicker. I think LV and Lucius are afraid of Arthur's power. I wouldn't be suprised to find out that LV did something to cause Arthur to sit out his last rise to power, and in the process render him poor. Tying into this theory is Molly's comment in GOF regarding her fond memories of the grounds keeper when she was at school (sorry, I don't have the book and can't remember the name). What if Molly and Arthur are older than they would seem from their children's ages? What if they went to school with Riddle? They might know some things that would make it easier to fight LV! They may even have their own grudges from the past. Just some thoughts. fun_n_games. From melclaros at yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 21:03:51 2002 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:03:51 -0000 Subject: The teaser words on JKR's note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46868 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "mikiep0908" wrote: > Hello everyone. I'm new here, but like everyone else, I'm trying to > fill that empty space that will soon be occupied by the fifth year > book. > > On that note, I'm sure everyone has seen the teaser that is going to > be on auction next month. I'm sure that many people are going to be > immediately attracted to the word "dies," however, the words that > interest me are "Ron" and "broomstick." > > Does this mean that Ron is about to take Wood's place on the > Quidditch team? If he does, this could very weel be the shot at > glory that Ron has been craving for so long. > > What does anyone else think? > > Thanks! > > Mike P The word that jumped out at me was "Sacked". Hmmmmmm. Haven't we all been wondering about Snape's task, what it was, is now, and how he's supposed to fullfil it while keeping up with a full class schedule? It seems to me that if the good Professor found himself suddenly unemployed he'd certainly have a lot more time on his hands to resume spying, remove dementors, explore a new career in prison management or simply persue his life-long interest in dark curses. Pondering the joys of unemployment herself, Melpomene From jodel at aol.com Wed Nov 20 21:44:34 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:44:34 EST Subject: The Basilisk *Does* Target Its Victims (IMO) Message-ID: <15.2a9588b.2b0d5c42@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46869 Melody states; >>Well, in the chamber, Riddle said he sent the basilisk after the "squib's cat" (Ch 17). Since he made that distinction, I would say Mrs. Norris was attacked because Filch has no magic ability. Mudbloods are rare, but squibs are even more rare. Either way, Riddle doesn't like those without magic whether in heritage or in life. << I think the answer to this lies in Tom Riddle's own school days. He was sorted into *Slytherin*. As a half-blood. A *Muggle-raised* halfblood. As a *penniless* Muggle-raised halfblood. And I REALLY don't think that the values which predominate in Slytherin House were any different in Tom Riddle's day. And the "non-intervention" practices on the part of the House Heads (a little unusual today, but not 50 years ago) would not have made his experiences any easier. Riddle, however, was clearly gifted. In the way of many gifted children he was adept at projecting what would most impress his audience. By the time he reached his third year, he had negotiated a place for himself, and by sheer excellence, was making himself a force to be reckoned with. He also had a patron somewhere. Think about it. He states that he searched for the Chamber for five years. He was a 5th year when he found it. He would not have been told anything about his background by the Muggle orphanage which raised him. He certainly wouldn't have been told anything about his magical background. And yet he knows of it enough to take up his search for Salazar's Chamber in his first year. Or does he? I could readily see the search for the Chamber being taken up by every adventurous Slytherin first year since Salazar's time. But they don't all go claiming to be his heir. Or do they go looking for the Chamber in hopes of proving themselves to be his "true" heir by finding it? Each of Hogwart's Houses has its own "Noble History". I never heard of a history without a few stories, myself. The story that Salazar left the Chamber and its monster for his heir would be an easy one to reconfigure into a "we'll know who his heir is when they find the Chamber." And doesn't the poor, pitiful tale of Tom Riddle's martyr mother and her wicked Muggle husband sound a little like a classic "cuckoo tale" to you? (My parents aren't my REAL parents. I'm really the lost prince in exile and someday my REAL parents will find me and rescue me from all this commoness that isn't WORTHY of Me.) Isn't it possible that he was told that his mother was a witch of good family and filled in the blanks from there? We do know that he came close to Dumbledore's summary (maybe it was Dumbledore who told him?) in PS/SS. But that was a very spare outline of the basic facts that Riddle's mother WAS in fact Slytherin's last known direct decendent. And we do know that Riddle was brilliant enough to connct the dots, even if he did put his own spin on the findings. In any case there has been a deal of speculation on just what house the Muggle-born Myrtle was sorted into. And quite a few of these debates have concluded that she may very well have been in Slytherin. It stands to reason that there must be any number of Muggle-borns whose overriding character trait is a hunger for power. And Myrtle's behaviour shows a great deal of slyiness and very little hesitation in using whatever method occurs to her which will produce an effect (usually to make other people feel --and look -- bad). A mudblood in Slytherin in Riddle's 4th year would have raised some very inconvenient questions of loyaltyies, sponsorship and solidarity from Riddle's new allies. Particularly given that Riddle had already set himself up as Slytherin house's shining new star, and sneering at a first year would not have suited his image. That Myrtle shows no signs of being either very clever or very powerfull, but simply a wet mess with a fondness of making other people look bad, would have made the situation all the more galling. I am not convinced that Myrtle's murder was accidental. If she *was* a Slytherin, the would have been the *one* mudblood who was most in Riddle's way. And she was the first to go. (And it would certainly have been child's play for Riddle to find out where she was sulking from Olive Hornsby.) Possibly, Myrtle was the ONLY one to go. We've heard nothing about any series of petrifications 50 years ago, although given that Dumbledore and Minerva (who is of an age to have possibly still been at school herself at the time) talk as though they recognize what is going on, would tend to suggest that there were. Another questionable in all this is how Malfoy knows that a mudblood was killed the last time the Chamber was opened. Yes, his father told him. But he also states in the same conversation that this happened *before* his father's time at Hogwarts. That he is privy to this kind of information would tend to indicate that at the very least, Lucius's father or uncle was also a school governor at the time and knew of the matters that Dippit wanted hushed up. Or that an elder Malfoy was one of those close companions who already knew Riddle as "Lord Voldemort" in his school days. There is already ample indication that the Riddle/Malfoy association goes back a long way. It sounds like Draco is a third-generation supporter. I'm also of the oppinion that Salazar left his basilisk in a charmed sleep that only another parselmouth could awaken it from. -JOdel From monzaba at poczta.onet.pl Wed Nov 20 21:59:02 2002 From: monzaba at poczta.onet.pl (monika_zaboklicka) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:59:02 -0000 Subject: Snape, Spy and Assassin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46870 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Judy" wrote: > I'm completely convinced that Snape's task at the end of GoF is to > return to spying on Voldemort. Noo! It's too dangerous for him! No, please, no!!!! > He's sent on the task immediately after > Voldemort's return. Second, it's something that Dumbledore "must ask > of" Snape, which implies that the task is vital and that Snape is the > only one who can do it. Spying on Voldemort fits both of these > criteria. Third, the task is clearly supposed to be dangerous, > judging by Dumbledore's concerned look; spying on Voldemort certain > fits this criterion as well. Dumbledore is not widely known for being nice to Snape, but still I can't believe he'd risk Severus's life. Voldemort's dangerous because he's not stupid. Egomaniac, perhaps, but not stupid. He clearly harbours no illusions about DE's loyalties after his fall (with obvious exceptions of Crouch Jr., Lestranges and Co.). And Snape was publicly named as a spy for Dumbledore - Judy: > Suppose Snape goes to Voldemort at the end > of GoF. I imagine a conversation like the following. > Voldemort: "Bwahahaha, no one can fool me! I can easily tell if you > are loyal to me. Tell me, Snape, my slippery friend, whose side are > you on?" > Snape: "Why, the winning side of course, my Lord. That is why I have > returned to you." > At this point, Voldemort's enormous ego kicks in and he assumes that > "the winning side" is *his* side, even though Snape never said any > such thing. My first thought is Avery. Avery, who came for his Master's call, Avery, who cried for forgiveness. *Crucioed* Avery. And Malfoy, being told quite plainly "I expect more faithful service in future". Voldemort cannot, repeat, cannot be so easily cheated. > 3) Snape may have a potion that increases persuasiveness. Snape might have a whole lot of Potions. He's one of "few wizards who can make it", as Lupin says. Still, if good potionmaker can fool Lord V., Lord V. is too naive to be regarded as really dangerous. I mean, he also learned Potions at school, didn't he? > The bottom line is, Voldemort refuses to believe that anyone can > outsmart him. This would be Snape's biggest advantage in trying to > spy on Voldemort. Well, all I can say is I've re-read chapter 33 of GoF just now and I can't quite belive this. V. can obviously thinks he's surrounded by opportunists who'd follow the strongest wolf in pack and abandon him as soon as he looses his teeth. > JKR is setting it up so > that Snape has perfect excuses to kill Karkaroff. Sure, but Karakoff is a coward, a bully, an highly incompetent moron - and such people are damn good at avoiding trouble. Snape's cleverness, however big, might not be enough to find the geek. > Second, there are those, um, you know, er, hints that Karkaroff > sexually exploited Snape. You know, the stuff about Karkaroff acting > like he's attracted to Victor Krum combined with the fact that Krum is > described as looking like Snape. Really? When was Snape described as looking "sulky", chief adjective which was always used to describe Krum? Victor had always be hitting me as a famous wizard with surprisingly big inferiority complex. "Even though I was from Durmstrang"! Phew! I can't imagine Sev complaining about being a Slytherin! > And also the fact that Snape is on > first-name terms with "Igor" and apparently with absolutely no one > else. Ough, I can't quote exact words now, but isn't he on first name terms with Minerva? > That's the Snape we all know and love! (We do all love him, > right? RIGHT?) Of course we all love Snape! Who's more lovable in all of HP universe?! Monika The Snapefan From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 20 22:35:20 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:35:20 -0000 Subject: Voldemort - descendent or ancestor In-Reply-To: <3DDAA8E4.1050803@netvision.net.il> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46871 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Klei wrote: > > > Audra1976 at a... wrote: > > > In a message dated 19/11/2002 14:29:49 Eastern Standard Time, > > kela_bit at n... writes: > > > I've seen threads about it "may being valueable one day", but > > > > >did anyone notice that the error is deliberate? > > > > Calling Voldemort Slytherin's "ancestor" was a DELIBERATE > >error? So Voldemort's going to use a Super Time Turner to go > > back and impregnate Salazar's grandmother? > Katsmall the Wise > Or turn it a whole lot of time :-) > Acctually, I put a quote from the chat, but it was a table, so it > disappeard. > Quote follows. > Q.: Harry Potter for grownups again! Is Voldemort the last > remaining ancestor of Slytherin, or the last remaining descendent of Slytherin? > J.K.: Ah, you spotted the deliberate error. Yes, it should read > "descendent." That's been changed in subsequent editions. (Keep > hold of the "ancestor" one, maybe it'll be valuable one day!) > > See the "Deliberate"? > > Yes, I do see the 'deliberate', but as Eloise pointed out, 'you spotted the deliberate error' is British slang. It is short for 'ah, you have spotted the enormous mistake I made, which I really should have noticed and corrected, but which for some reason I missed completely.' So Voldemort *is* Slytherin's last remaining descendant. This gives rise to speculation that the Slytherin descendants have invariably been so impossible to get along with that they have been slaughtered at a truly incredible rate. Either that, or they had such appalling interpersonal skills that they only ever managed to produce one surviving child per generation before their wife/husband decided 'enough of this, I'm taking a lover'. ;-) Otherwise, by now, the entire British Isles, most of the Caribbean, a good part of the Americas, the majority of Australia and New Zealand, 10 percent of the Indian subcontinent,and a sprinkling of other nationalities should also be descendants of Slytherin. Of course, the fact that Dumbledore thinks Tom Riddle was Slytherin's last and only remaining descendant does not necessarily mean that this is *in fact* the case. [grin] Pip!Squeak From crussell at arkansas.net Wed Nov 20 22:41:19 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:41:19 -0000 Subject: The Basilisk *Does* Target Its Victims (IMO) In-Reply-To: <15.2a9588b.2b0d5c42@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46872 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jodel at a... wrote: > > In any case there has been a deal of speculation on just what house the Muggle-born Myrtle was sorted into. And quite a few of these debates have concluded that she may very well have been in Slytherin. It stands to reason that there must be any number of Muggle-borns whose overriding character trait is a hunger for power. IMO, there is no way that muggle-born Myrtle was in Slytherin. Given what we know concerning Salazar Slytherin's opinions in regards to "mudbloods", why would the Sorting Hat place a muggle-born in Slytherin? My theory concerning the Sorting Hat is that it contains the likes/dislikes of all four founders and makes its decisions based on what each founder considered "admirable traits" Slytherin most certainly would not have considered a muggle-born "worthy" - regardless of what other traits they may have had- such as a hunger for power. Obviously, we can summize that the other three founders were not interested or concerned with "wizard purity" since we know for certain that Gryffindor, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff -all contain muggle-borns. bugaloo37 From susannahlm at yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 22:48:57 2002 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (susannahlm) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:48:57 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Soulsucked!Snape(well, not really)Meets Saboteur!Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46873 Derannimer paused for a moment, peering through the hole in the steam of the window. She wasn't altogether sure that she wanted to go into the Tavern. True, it was cold outside; the rain was lashing downwards and the stiff wind whipped her skirt around her calves in a most unpleasant manner. It would be nice and warm in the Tavern, and also she could get a drink. But. . . Well, Derannimer had never been to the Bay before. She had been reading about it for so long--things wonderful to tell, of brilliant and beautiful theorists and nautical battles that raged for weeks and a decidedly odd form of croquet, and it had sounded like such a wonderful place that she had finally just given up and *gone*. But hanging around was one thing; eavesdropping on other people's conversations was one thing. Walking into the Tavern, where she could see *George*, and *Marina*, and *Charis Julia*, and sitting herself down an-and- and-getting-a-drink-from-George, for heaven's sake, was quite another. These were some of the Greats of TBAY. What if one of them actually spoke to her? Would she be able to make a sensible reply, or would she just gurgle and fall off her bar stool? She took another look through the window, and saw something that she had missed before: Captain Cindy was there, slumped over the bar, some dark liquid pooled on the polished wood by her elbow. "Captain Cindy," thought Derannimer. "Well, that's it then. I'm not going in there." A few damp leaves, driven by that dratted wind, smacked against her bare arm and lay plastered there. She peeled them off with distaste. "Well, that's it then," thought Derannimer. "I *am* going in there." She wouldn't have to talk to anyone, she could just get a drink. She pushed open the door and walked in, trying simultaneously to feel tall and to look inconspicuous. It was indeed warm inside the Tavern; warm, cheerfully lit, well- appointed and free of any annoying music. Nice place. Derannimer picked out a stool at the far end of the bar. If she sat here, maybe no one would speak to her, and maybe she would still be close enough to hear some of the conversation taking place between Marina and Charis Julia, over there in the corner. She had caught the word "Snape," so it might be-- "And what'll it be for you, miss?" came a brightly attractive voice from over the counter. Someone was standing in front of her. Derannimer shot her glance far enough upward to recognize the unmistakably fine forehead and limpid brown eyes currently tending bar. She as quickly dropped it, blushing. "Um... can I have a glass of milk? Please?" Down the length of the bar, she thought she heard Captain Cindy snort, but this hardly seemed likely; the Captain didn't appear to be in any sort of a state to care what other people wanted to order, or indeed to notice. George set the cool glass down on the counter, then drifted off about two yards, where, apparently in need of refills, Marina and Charis Julia had come over to the bar. Charis Julia was speaking, playing affectionately with her FEATHERBOAS. "Oh," she whispers softly. "Oh, just think of it. . . Just think of all the things that would resurface in the mind of the repented Death Eater Snape were he ever to be trapped by a Dementor! The pain, the anguish, the racking guilt and regret! What memories of past crimes pushed aside, out of recollection for 14 long years would force themselves back into vivid, relentless recognition! Re?played again and again and again. . . wide screen, Dolby Digital, the works. . . and all the while Snape on the ground, writhing, * screaming* in--" "No, but would he though?" Deranninmer is quite as surprised as anyone else to hear her own voice suddenly interrupt Charis Julia's. The young woman pushes herself off her bar stool and walks, a bit wobbly in shock, over to Charis Julia, who is courteously waiting, silent, to hear the objection. "I mean. . . I'm not sure if the Dementors could affect Snape, seeing as how I'm not sure he's got a soul. At least not all of one." "You mean he's half-Dementor himself, right?" Cindy's voice. The Captain has apparently regained consciousness enough to welcome anyone implying that Snape's not all human. "N-no. I don't mean that half-Dementor thing. I mean the Dark Mark." Derannimer looks around her, gaining some confidence from the obviously friendly theorists. She briefly catches George's eye, and e winks. She takes a deep breath in and lets a deep breath out, and then she starts talking. ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> I think that, in order to become a Death Eater, you have to bind yourself to Lord Voldemort, in an arrangement whereby he gives you nifty extra powers, and you give him *you*: your service, possibly your powers to some degree (which could only add to his strength), and, naturally (this is a "deal with the devil", after all) your actual soul. This is a "binding magical contract;" it cannot be broken, no matter how much you repent, no matter how badly you want to renege--you keep your nifty powers, and Lord Voldemort keeps your soul. Your body, and your intellect, and (obviously) your will can go on their merry way, but some fairly substantial part of you splits off from the rest and stays with Voldemort. (It might not be a clean break--it might not be your whole soul--because Voldemort, unlike a Dementor, does not have this ability "naturally." He has to use some froody piece of Dark Magic to do it, and so the effects might be less tidy.) So Snape left Voldemort. But not all of him left. No wonder his eyes are always "empty;" your eyes would be empty to if half your soul, or all your soul, or 28/34's of your soul, or whatever the percentage was in his case, was residing in Evil Snake Baby/Man. When Voldemort really dies, maybe Snape gets his soul back. Or maybe it simply goes poof and Snape throws himself in the Lake and gets eaten by the Giant Squid. Or whatever. Have I got any sort of canonical support at *all* for this admittedly somewhat esoteric--and weird--notion? (About the DE's and Voldemort, I mean, not about the Squid.) Well, let's see. Given: 1. There is such a thing as a binding magical contract (set up in GOF, with the Triwizard Tournament. 2. the Death Eaters are somehow bound to Voldemort. 3. This bind has at *least* a physical manifestation in the Dark Mark. 4. In the Potterverse, souls can be *literally* manipulated by magic (ala the Dementor's Kiss). 5. It's usually a dumb idea to make a "deal with the devil", according to every piece of literature I've ever read. In message 36473, Elkins very convincingly made a case for a quid-pro- quo between Voldemort and his DE's, powers for allegiance. >There is some suggestion in the books that either Voldemort himself >or allegiance to Dark forces in general might indeed have the >ability >to imbue wizards with magical powers previously beyond their >capabilities. >In the Shrieking Shack scene of PoA, for example, Pettigrew offers >up >Sirius' escape from Azkaban as proof of his Dark allegiance. ("He's >got dark powers the rest of us can only dream of! How else did he >get out of there? I suppose He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named taught him a >few tricks?") And Pettigrew himself seems to me to be *extremely* >magically capable, for someone who is constantly accused of being a >weak wizard. That muggle-blasting spell couldn't have been easy, and >I imagine that the ritual spell by which Voldemort was rebirthed in >GoF must have been quite difficult -- yet Pettigrew manages to >complete it even after severing his own hand. >It seems more than likely to me that casting ones lot in with Dark >forces really *does* grant one a certain boost in magical power. It >would do much to explain Dark magic's siren song appeal to those >ambitious, power-hungry, ends-over-means, rules-disregarding, fair- >play-is-for-dummies members of House Slytherin. And there's also an >enormous weight of cultural and literary precedent behind the >notion. Traditionally, after all, deals with the Devil do usually >get you *something* -- even if you pay far too high a price for it, >in the end. And I agreed then with every word she said. I think it's actually highly likely that the DE's do get something. The problem with my idea is that it really comes down to what *Voldemort* gets. There's nothing to prove that he gets their souls. But hey, it seems in character for Voldemort, and the Dementors suggest that it's possible. And I do think that, whatever Voldemort gets, a "binding magical contract" does enter into the deal. I mean, where's the eternal consequence (or the Bang) of a deal with the Devil when you can simply *change your mind* when you feel like it? No. It's got to be harder than that. ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ". . . so, I mean, Snape wouldn't be writhing around in agony or anything, faced with a Dementor. They might not even be able to tell that he's there. Which is a pity, because *I* kind of like the idea too. "I mean, I don't know what this theory's got going for it; I don't know if you can make it Bang or anything--" Derannimer briefly glances at Captain Cindy, then decides it's not worth the effort to wake her up again--"and I don't know what George will think of it, but. . . well, I don't think I've ever seen it anywhere else, and I thought maybe I should bring it up, and well. . . that's it, really. "Blow it to pieces." ;) Derannimer looks around the Tavern. It is considerably fuller than it was earlier in the evening, but her seat, at the far end of the bar, is still vacant. She looks at it for a minute, then shakes her head. "Nah," she says, and grabs a bar stool a couple places down from Captain Cindy. "I like it here." ;) Derannimer (who cannot believe how long this message is, and feels unjustifiably smug about it) From sgarfio at yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 22:50:35 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:50:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Serpents and Parseltongue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021120225035.56385.qmail@web21409.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46874 Julie Stahlhut wrote: > I'm wondering what people think about the generally poor > reputation assumed for both serpents and Parselmouths in the > HPverse; I'm not convinced they always hold true even in canon. I think that the circumstances surrounding Harry's exposure as a Parselmouth affected people's view. Salazar's heir was foremost in the students' minds, and they would naturally be wondering who the heir was; they were bound to draw the conclusion that Harry is the heir. Under normal circumstances, discovering that their famous classmate is a Parselmouth would inspire comments like "Cool, he can talk to snakes!" and "Eew, he can talk to snakes!", particularly given that Harry is credited with defeating Slytherin's last known heir. > So -- Maybe Harry did get his Parselmouth fluency during > Voldemort's attack, but the fear it inspires among other wizards > seems based completely on prejudice due to the Slytherin crowd > having used it to control serpents and make weapons of them. And there tends to be a basic mistrust of snakes in many people. It may be unfounded, but it is there. > Could there be other good Parselmouths besides Harry? Absolutely! My guess is that Parseltongue is a gift like any other - good people and bad people are equally likely to be endowed with it. I also believe that Harry will use it to his advantage in future books (more so than just making Dudley wet his pants, that is). - Sherry Who immediately went and ordered "Harry Potter's World: Multidisciplinary Critical Perspectives" on Amazon yesterday on the recommendation of another listee, and finds today that it's not expected to ship until Nov 27 - how many of us ordered that thing, anyway? ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From nithya_rachel at hotmail.com Thu Nov 21 00:01:12 2002 From: nithya_rachel at hotmail.com (errolowl) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 00:01:12 -0000 Subject: The teaser words on JKR's note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46875 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "melclaros" wrote: >> The word that jumped out at me was "Sacked". Hmmmmmm. Haven't we all been wondering about Snape's task, what it was, is now, and how he's supposed to fullfil it while keeping up with a full class schedule? It seems to me that if the good Professor found himself suddenly unemployed he'd certainly have a lot more time on his hands (Snip)<< Why Snape? I get the feeling Arthur Weasly could get sacked just as easily...it would tie in with the "Ron" part too! Or it could be something to do with a certian sacked house-elf....ummm, maybe I'll wait for the other 83 phrases/ words before I start cooking up theories by the dozen! Oh, and the "Sorry"...is that JKR's reaction to "dies" much like she includes "might change", or is someone going to be very sorry? ;-) Errol who was completely character assasinated in this movie! From tmarends at yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 00:04:35 2002 From: tmarends at yahoo.com (Tim) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 00:04:35 -0000 Subject: The teaser words on JKR's note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46876 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "errolowl" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "melclaros" wrote: > > >> The word that jumped out at me was "Sacked". Hmmmmmm. Haven't we > all been wondering about Snape's task, what it was, is now, and how > he's supposed to fullfil it while keeping up with a full class > schedule? It seems to me that if the good Professor found himself > suddenly unemployed he'd certainly have a lot more time on his hands > (Snip)<< > > Why Snape? I get the feeling Arthur Weasly could get sacked just as > easily...it would tie in with the "Ron" part too! Or it could be > something to do with a certian sacked house-elf....ummm, maybe I'll > wait for the other 83 phrases/ words before I start cooking up > theories by the dozen! > > Oh, and the "Sorry"...is that JKR's reaction to "dies" much like she > includes "might change", or is someone going to be very sorry? ;-) > > Errol > who was completely character assasinated in this movie! The new DADA teacher, Mrs. Arabella Figg, dies... thus Harry has someone who's been close to him to die and gets first hand knowledge of losing someone close... How's that? Tim From sarah at mcfarland.co.uk Thu Nov 21 00:04:01 2002 From: sarah at mcfarland.co.uk (S) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 00:04:01 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Basilisk *Does* Target Its Victims (IMO) In-Reply-To: References: <15.2a9588b.2b0d5c42@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021121000313.02fe67a8@pop.ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46877 bugaloo37 said: >IMO, there is no way that muggle-born Myrtle was in Slytherin. Given >what we know concerning Salazar Slytherin's opinions in regards >to "mudbloods", why would the Sorting Hat place a muggle-born in >Slytherin? Voldemort was a mudblood, too - his father was a muggle. If he got into Slytherin, it makes sense that other muggle-born pupils could, as well. ~Say From charisjulia at hotmail.com Thu Nov 21 00:15:48 2002 From: charisjulia at hotmail.com (charisjulia) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 00:15:48 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Assassin!Snape Meets Saboteur!Snape (WAS Saboteur!Snape's Next Mission) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46878 Charis Julia was just getting comfortable on her bar stool. Her head buried deeply in the folds of her folded coat up on the bar, she had just reached that, mmmm, oh, so very, very snug and cosy stage when you are just barely aware that you are now falling asleep. . . Mmmmm . . . SLAM! Charis leapt up with a start. Captain Cindy was blurrily standing before her hands on her waist tapping one foot impatiently. "Oh, no. . ." thought Charis groggily. "Cindy's back for more. Did it have to be * now*?" She dimly thought about trying to get away, but no, Charis sighed looking up at the Captain. That wouldn't work. Cindy looked resolute. As if she had arguments. Oh, groan. . . Cindy got going: >"The problem with Saboteur!Snape is one of >logic, not one of Banginess. > >"In the face of that Big set-up, we're to imagine that Snape is >going to Azkaban, will toss off a Patronus to make the Dementors >glide away and then ?- what? Sit there, commanding the DE prisoners >to dig holes and fill them back up again? Tell the inmates to stop >making so darn much noise banging their tin cups against the bars? >Arrange conjugal visits for the Lestranges? Cindy swirled round on her bar stool to face Charis with the aim of pushing her point through further with a bit of very poignant finger? jamming on the counter, but stopped however mid?swivel when she finally notices the look on the other's face. And no, it wasn't one of drooping drowsiness. It was one of shock. Charis could scarcely speak. And after all it is a generally very hard thing to do so when your chin is trailing loosely on the counter before you. "Toss -- off -- a -- Patronus," she finally managed in a scarcely audible croak. "* A* Patronus!" she spluttered. "Make the Dementors glide away . . . just . . . just like that?! Just. . just snap his fingers and Azkaban is his, is, is * that* what you've been imagining I'm suggesting! Oh, * boy* have you got it wrong, honey!" Charis was definitely beginning to regain full control of all her articulation functions at least. But, then, just as she was about to charge forth into a full?blown rant, Charis stopped, thought the better of it and turned calmly back to her drink. "Cindy, I'm not even going to bother getting excited over this point. The answer is too self evident to warrant the fuss. Now, look, let me point out a few things that might help you get the picture. I don't actually have my copy of PoA with me right now (lent it to the same friend who currently raptly caught up in my GoF), but my French version of the book when describing the lost Quidditch match says that the Dementors that flooded the field came up to about "une centaine". Charis shook her head solemnly "In other words, we are talking about almost one hundred Dementors present." "Now that's a lot of Dementors and these are only the ones situated at Hogwarts --- how many others were sent to other parts of the country in the search for Black? As for Azkaban --- well, if it can spare one hundred guards to place at one sole location like that, I don't even want to think about the numbers that must be swarming around that tiny rock of an island! Why the place must be seething with them! Not, I'm sure" Charis emphasised this with a meaningful look, "not an easy obstacle to hurdle." "Besides," she continued in a lighter tone, "I don't have much faith in Snape's Patronus calling abilities. He's not, you know, a very happy man." "And all this brings us to one more issue brought up by various bright list?members." Acire wrote: >Yes, exactly, he sends Snape off *right* *after* the events of GoF >have occured. And he's back by the Leaving Feast. Whatever he did >had to be fast, and probably nearby, as wizards cannot Apparate that >far, and maybe not even Bangy enough to not have been noticed by the >rest of the Wizarding World. There is a month between the third task >and the end of the school year. However, there is not mention of >Snape not being at Potions lessons or the lessons being cancelled, >and no mention of anything huge happening, like Dementors being >kicked out of Azkaban. "Honey, hold on! What's the rush? Calm down, pace yourself, there, there, take deep breaths. . . First of all are you really sure that there was a whole month between the Third Task and the end?of?year feast? I know Harry says he couldn't remember much even a month later, which is a bit misleading, but after that I'm pretty sure we are returned back to the days just after the Task. Check H?R?H's visit to Hagrid which takes place on * the* Thursday as opposed to * a* Thursday. The Lexicon also confirms this timeline as you can see here: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/calendar_gf.html "And, no, to get to the essence of your objection, I did not mean to imply that Snape hurries off to Azkaban and blows all the prisoners out right there and then. I realise it did rather come out that way, didn't it? But what I think would be far more likely would a rather more time?consuming expedition. After all, you see, breaking into impregnable wizarding forts is no piece of pumpkin cake. These things take planning. I don't think Snape set off immediately to kick the Dementors out. Rather what I would suggest is that Dumbledore authorised him to * prepare* such a mission, so that when the time was ripe he could set it into effect at once. That is also, by the way, why nobody has noticed the world ?shattering event of Dementor expulsion: It hasn't taken place yet." Acire again: >Ah, but here's where I have the problem! Dumbledore DOESN'T send >Hagrid off right away. Hagrid doesn't leave until after the school >year has ended. Snape leaves right away. Charis blinks blankly. "But, that was exactly my point! The Snape business is one of the few Dumbledore attends to before he sees Hagrid and M. Maxime. Just like the ridding of Azkaban of the Dementors is the one thing he advised Fudge to do before he turned to the Giants." Charis Julia, who will have to put off really getting down to this whole very interesting discussion till tomorrow, `cos right now, she's beat. * * * Hypothetic Alley: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hypotheticalley.html Inish Alley: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 From wynnde1 at aol.com Wed Nov 20 23:22:44 2002 From: wynnde1 at aol.com (wynnde1 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:22:44 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] TBAY - Snape the Killer Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46879 Slumping onto the nearest barstool, Wendy puts her face in her hands for just a moment. "Golly," she mutters under her breath, "I'm not sure I should be here. I thought I'd be safe enough, but now I'm not so sure. I mean, I didn't come here for *this*!" She looks up, glancing around quickly. "Geez," she thinks. "Did I actually just say 'golly' out loud? I sure hope no one heard that. They'll all think I'm hopelessly goofy! And I do so want to make a good first impression." Sitting up straight, she smiles hopefully at the rather sexy bartender, and then gives her attention back to Eileen. "You see," Wendy says, thoughtfully, "I came in here tonight feeling very secure in my view of Snape. Oh sure, I don't claim to *know* exactly what happened in his childhood, or anything like that. But I felt like I really had a good understanding of what makes him tick. But now I'm not so sure. I'm feeling a bit confused, really. I've got all sorts of voices in my head, all competing for my attention. Oh wait, I'm not supposed to admit that, even in the Wizarding World, am I?" Wendy notices a few of the other patrons in the bar moving ever so slightly away from her. She shrugs, and continues, "On the one hand, I really want to keep refuting this whole Snape As Killer thing. But there is something very compelling about the evidence that Elkins pulled out, as well. So I'm going to try and muddle through this, and hope that you can make some sense of it. After all, you did say you thought the list could do with another debate about all this, right?" Eileen nods, and sits down on a nearby barstool, motioning to George to bring another drink. She has the feeling this may be a long night. This new kid looked fairly normal when she first came in, but now she actually looks a bit dishevelled and, well, manic. "By the way," Wendy says suddenly, "Did you *really* want to be a Wendy when you were young? I've always rather disliked being named after that annoying twit in Peter Pan. But, I guess it's not really all that bad." She shakes her head, as if to clear it, and continues, "Now, on to more important matters . . . " "Okay. First this Snape is a Killer thing. As morbidly attractive as I find this idea, I still have a wee problem with it - well, a couple of wee problems, but I'll start with just one. If Snape had really been gung-ho for Voldemort, would Dumbledore have allowed him to teach at Hogwarts all these years? After all, Sirius says in GoF that he doubts Dumbledore would have hired an ex-Death Eater. Well, obviously Sirius was wrong about that, but just how far wrong could he have been? Honestly, do you see Dumbledore allowing someone who truly had the sort of propensity for evil that we've seen in, for example, Malfoy . . ." Wendy glances in Avery's direction, then turns away from him and lowers her voice before finishing, "Or Avery? Would he have hired either of them as Hogwart's professors if they'd repented? I just don't think so." "So how to explain why Death Eater Snape could have Dumbledore's trust. And tie it all in to Cindy's theory about Snape assassinating Karkaroff. Okay, I've got a new idea here. (Well, it's probably not *new* exactly, but it's the first time I've thought of it, anyway). I'm willing to ditch my theory that Snape's first murder in the service of Voldemort upset him so much he switched sides. Maybe Snape really never did kill ANYONE as a Death Eater." Wendy notices Avery glaring at her, a muscle above his right eye twitching alarmingly. Pretending not to see this, she takes a deep breath and continues, "So we have Snape with a clean slate, murder-wise anyway. So if Snape really does end up assassinating Karkaroff, wouldn't it be, well, ironic, or at least interesting or something, if the first murder he ever commits is in the service of DUMBLEDORE, and not Voldemort? Does that bang? I can't tell. I'm just too confused right now." Eileen still looks a bit sceptical. "But Wendy, I told you I > think it really cheapens Snape's redemption story to say he never was as > horrible as those others." "But that's my point," Wendy says, a bit breathlessly. "It doesn't cheapen the redemption if he's not yet actually *done* the thing for which he needs to be redeemed! At this point, canonically, we know of *nothing* concrete that Snape has done which would necessitate a redemption, do we? Yes, he was a Death Eater, but we have no details of crimes he committed. We've got LOADS more dirt on Sirius Black, for example. We know of a very specific awful thing he did." Wendy looks around nervously, ready to run if a pack of rabid Siruis "Prank" Apologists show up with wands drawn. "Why, for all we know, Snape only joined Voldemort specifically to be Dumbledore's spy. I don't happen to believe this, but I can't think of any canon which disproves this." Wendy glances around the pub, challenging anyone to disagree with her. Eileen nods thoughtfully, and no one else says anything either, but Wendy's not sure if that's just because no one else is actually paying her any attention. "Perhaps it's time to move things along," she thinks. She clears her throat and continues, "Elkins had some interesting things to say. Quoting from past posts." She looks at Elkins, who is once again engrossed in her work. But Wendy's come to far to give up now, so she walks over to where Elkins is sitting. "Excuse me," she asks, her voice sounding more timid than she intended. Without looking up, Elkins says, "Can I help you?" "Erm, yes, actually. I was hoping you would remind us of some of what you quoted earlier about Snape?" Taking a *very* deep breath, Elkins stops writing. "Which parts? Let's see, I remember the post about how w > e hear a great deal about Rowling's statement of intent to show how > genuinely *bad* evil is in these books, and I laud that sentiment. But evil > is also *complicated,* and there are times when I find myself wishing that > Rowling would run a little further with that particular ball. > > "As far as Snape specifically, I said that I tend to see him as someone > whose *impulses* all lead him in one unerring direction -- but in a > direction that he has chosen to reject on abstract and purely philosophical > grounds. In other words, I see him as a Dark Wizard. In instinct. In > impulse. In inclination. To some extent, perhaps even in essence." "Yes, that's the stuff *exactly*," Wendy gushes. She puts on what she hopes is her most charming smile. "Thanks so much!" Elkins shakes her head and goes back to writing. Wendy turns back to Eileen, looking somewhat pale but rather excited, too. "Okay. I'm really thinking about this one. I could *perhaps* be converted to this school of thought about Snape. But I'm not converted *yet*. If you really want me to buy into this, I'm going to need some more evidence. After all, it pretty much blows away my whole concept of the man I love most in the whole Potterverse." Eileen becomes a bit alarmed as Wendy continues, muttering mostly to herself, "But heck, if I become disolutioned about Snape, I've always got Remus to fall back upon. Unless he turns out to be evil. Well, I suppose I could just decide to be evil, too. And if I do *that* then it's open season on Lucius. Oh YES!" Wendy looks up suddenly, and smiles nervously. "Erm, nevermind all that. Not important." She smiles brightly. "Snape. Yes, Snape. He does seem to enjoy the petty cruelties he perpetrates against Harry and Co. But I've always looked at this issue from the other way 'round . . . Let's assume that our view of Snape as a recovering Death Eater is based on what we perceive as his cruelty to others. But is there some eternal law of the universe that says that cruel equals evil? Are there not charming villains? Or people who are nasty who, although unpleasant to be around, are in reality harmless or even benevolent? I always sort of thought that this was the point JKR was making - Snape isn't meant to prove that evil is complicated, but that *good* is complicated, too. We shouldn't assume someone is evil just because they aren't nice or pretty or use proper hygiene. Of course, I guess the fact that Snape really was a Death Eater could possibly be used as proof that Snape was, at some point, evil." Wendy's lips twist into something that might pass for a smile. "Or maybe not . . . "You see, I have this whole scenario in mind as to why Snape joined the Death Eaters in the first place. And some of it is a bit, er, *adult* in nature. Which makes me wonder what this sort of backstory would be doing in books which are shelved in the children's section, but that's not my problem. Without going into all the gory details, let's just say that Snape was, for whatever reason, in the market for a substitute father figure and was therefore susceptible to Voldemort's charisma. And Voldemort, if we give him credit for being a *real* evil overlord, and not just a plot device, might have been inclined to take advantage of young Severus in a very specific way. Please don't tell me I have to actually speak aloud what I'm getting at. Sure, Severus knew a lot of curses but that doesn't mean he was particularly worldly. And he must have looked up to Voldemort in some way in order to have chosen to join him. Would teenage Snape have had the ability to defend himself against the certiainly very forceful attentions of this older man?" Wendy's eyes are definitely glittering now, as she continues, "Actually, this fits in perfectly with something I overheard from another conversation." She gets up from the stool, hurries across the room and comes back with another woman in tow. This woman smiles gamely, but looks a bit uncertain about having been dragged across the room. "Your name is Snapefan Judy, right?" Wendy asks. The woman nods, and opens her mouth to speak, but before she can get a word out, Wendy interrupts, "You were talking about the one big problem with the whole 'Snape is Returning to Voldemort to be a Spy' scenario. What was it you were saying?" Finally given a chance to speak, Snape fan Judy clears her throat and begins, "I was saying that the big problem is 'Why in the world would Voldemort take Snape back, after Snape went over to Dumbledore's side?' " "Right!" Wendy says excitedly. "And then you said something about Voldemort wanting to trust Snape . . ." "Erm, yes," Judy continues, "Well, Voldemort doesn't want to believe that Snape actually was spying on him. It's well known that Snape was a double-agent by the end of VoldeWar I. But, that still leaves Voldemort with the question of whose side Snape was *really* on. So, which will Voldemort believe? Remember, we're talking about *Voldemort* here. "Evil Overlord" Voldemort. "I'm the greatest wizard ever" Voldemort. "Phoenix Tears, I forgot" Voldemort. He's going to go with choice B. Voldemort will think that Snape was really on his side all along, and pulled the wool over the eyes of "that fool" Dumbledore." "That's right," Wendy says. "But maybe it's all more *personal* than that. Maybe Voldemort has a vested interest in wanting to believe Snape couldn't have betrayed him because Snape was always one of his very *favourites*. I won't go so far as to credit Voldemort with actual feelings of love, but maybe as close to that as an Evil Overlord can get. He's just *fond* of Snape in a very particular way and would do just about anything to believe that Snape couldn't possibly have betrayed him. "Okay. I realise this is a bit, erm, *darker* than is maybe plausible. And probably not something JKR would actually *write*. But that's not the point. It works, doesn't it? It gives us a credible reason for Snape joining Voldemort in the first place which doesn't involve him being just plain old evil. Plus, it give us a reason to believe that Snape returning to Voldemort wouldn't just be a suicide mission." Wendy sits back on her barstool. "Well?" she says to Eileen, "What do you think?" Turning to George, she says confidently, "Bloody Mary, please. Which reminds me, did I mention that I think it's highly likely that Snape might just possibly be a vampire?" Wendy (Who was dead chuffed to find herself in Eileen's TBAY post, and was inspired to try one of her own.) :-) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From the.gremlin at verizon.net Thu Nov 21 00:54:39 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 00:54:39 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Assassin!Snape Meets Saboteur!Snape (WAS Saboteur!Snape's Next Mission) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46880 I wrote: "Yes, exactly, he sends Snape off *right* *after* the events of GoF have occured. And he's back by the Leaving Feast. Whatever he did had to be fast, and probably nearby, as wizards cannot Apparate that far, and maybe not even Bangy enough to not have been noticed by the rest of the Wizarding World. There is a month between the third task and the end of the school year. However, there is not mention of Snape not being at Potions lessons or the lessons being cancelled, and no mention of anything huge happening, like Dementors being kicked out of Azkaban." Charis Julia responded: "Honey, hold on! What's the rush? Calm down, pace yourself, there, there, take deep breaths. . . First of all are you really sure that there was a whole month between the Third Task and the end?of?year feast? I know Harry says he couldn't remember much even a month later, which is a bit misleading, but after that I'm pretty sure we are returned back to the days just after the Task. Check H?R?H's visit to Hagrid which takes place on * the* Thursday as opposed to * a* Thursday. The Lexicon also confirms this timeline as you can see here": Me: I mixed up June and July. July 31 stuck out in my mind and I just now realized that that's Harry's birthday. ::blush:: However, I knew the school year ended later than most school years I'M used to, and that's why I thought there was so much time between the Third Task and the Leaving Feast. Charis Julia "And, no, to get to the essence of your objection, I did not mean to imply that Snape hurries off to Azkaban and blows all the prisoners out right there and then. I realise it did rather come out that way, didn't it? But what I think would be far more likely would a rather more time?consuming expedition. After all, you see, breaking into impregnable wizarding forts is no piece of pumpkin cake. These things take planning. I don't think Snape set off immediately to kick the Dementors out. Rather what I would suggest is that Dumbledore authorised him to * prepare* such a mission, so that when the time was ripe he could set it into effect at once. That is also, by the way, why nobody has noticed the world ?shattering event of Dementor expulsion: It hasn't taken place yet." Okay, that makes more sense. I was also under the impression that sent the Dementors away right away. Me again: "Ah, but here's where I have the problem! Dumbledore DOESN'T send Hagrid off right away. Hagrid doesn't leave until after the school year has ended. Snape leaves right away." "Charis blinks blankly. "But, that was exactly my point! The Snape business is one of the few Dumbledore attends to before he sees Hagrid and M. Maxime. Just like the ridding of Azkaban of the Dementors is the one thing he advised Fudge to do before he turned to the Giants."" My mistake. I cut off too much of your post when I was trying to quote you. What I meant was, you said that Dumbledore immediately tackles the two points he tried to make to Fudge: send envoys to the giants, and get the Dementors out of Azkaban. Well, if Snape was indeed supposed to get Dementors out of Azkaban, or prepare for it, why does Dumbledore send him off right away, and wait a week to send of Hagrid? Both people in question are teachers at the school, yet Dumbledore waits a week to send one off, and sends the other off right away, both to do things that he said are extremely important to accomplish before V-Mort beats them to it. Anyway, that was the point *I* was trying to make. -Acire, who seems to always do this before dinner, and who saw an owl the other day on top of a flag post. Sadly, it had no mail for her. From Malady579 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 21 01:11:53 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 01:11:53 -0000 Subject: Sorting Muggle-borns ( was: The Basilisk) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46881 bugaloo37 wrote: > My theory concerning the Sorting Hat is that it contains the > likes/dislikes of all four founders and makes its decisions based > on what each founder considered "admirable traits" Slytherin most > certainly would not have considered a muggle-born "worthy" - > regardless of what other traits they may have had- such as a hunger > for power. Bugaloo37, I like you idea. For some reason, I see the founders like lawyers trying to pick a jury. Some are certain strike off's while others are maybe's depending on whether the other houses want them. And in that view, Slytherin would definitely cut the idea of a muggle born first. It was an issue he was so passionate about that he left the school all together, so I think he would deem it priority #1. I don't think the sorting hat would sing about that either, since it is rather, I guess I'll say...embarrassing part of the school's history. You don't air your dirty laundry the first day new neighbors move in next door. The hat wants to encourage new Slytherins and not build prejudices from the start. Kind of like McGonagall telling the first years, "each house has its own noble history and each has produced outstanding witches and wizards." (PS/SS Ch7) ------ Say wrote: >Voldemort was a mudblood, too - his father was a muggle. If he got >into Slytherin, it makes sense that other muggle-born pupils could, >as well. Actually you have the definition of "mudblood" too encompassing. Let me quote (my favorite thing to do lately): CoS Ch7 "Mudblood's a really foul name for someone who is Muggle-born -- you know, non-magical parents." Note the pleural parents. Also, no one in the books who has half and half parents are ever called mudblood. Melody From Sunnylove0 at aol.com Thu Nov 21 01:53:17 2002 From: Sunnylove0 at aol.com (Sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:53:17 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort - descendent or ancestor Message-ID: <54.2ad59db.2b0d968d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46882 In a message dated 11/20/2002 3:38:20 PM Mountain Standard Time, pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk writes: > > So Voldemort *is* Slytherin's last remaining descendant. This gives > rise to speculation that the Slytherin descendants have invariably > been so impossible to get along with that they have been slaughtered > at a truly incredible rate. Either that, or they had such appalling > interpersonal skills that they only ever managed to produce one > surviving child per generation before their wife/husband > decided 'enough of this, I'm taking a lover'. ;-) > > Otherwise, by now, the entire British Isles, most of the Caribbean, > a good part of the Americas, the majority of Australia and New > Zealand, 10 percent of the Indian subcontinent,and a sprinkling of > other nationalities should also be descendants of Slytherin. > > Of course, the fact that Dumbledore thinks Tom Riddle was > Slytherin's last and only remaining descendant does not necessarily > mean that this is *in fact* the case. [grin] > > Pip!Squeak > > Well, also remember somewhere in the books Ron pops up with "Most of us are half-Muggle anyway, if we hadn't married Muggles we'd have died out." Maybe the Slytherin family's prejudices against Muggles combined with unpopularity in the wizarding world (there is evidence that old Salazar was not exactly Rainbow Brite i.e. parseltongue, pureblood prejudices, general bad attitude) is working against them in the reproduction arena. The Queen of Serpents (Slytherin into a new list! Hello everyone!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nightrider_lilly at hotmail.com Thu Nov 21 02:09:29 2002 From: nightrider_lilly at hotmail.com (Terra Elder) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:09:29 -0000 Subject: Why not draco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46883 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: > There have been a lot of thoeries about why Lucious gave the diary to ginny, but why would he not give it to draco? It would work just as well and draco might even be a willing subject. Even if not, his dad could have kept him imprisoned until tom fully took over. Why risk it all on ginny? > > Chris > > I always understood it to be that Lucius chose Ginny because she was a Weasley child, and the youngest one so would be a bit more naive than the rest. Wasn't Mr. Weasley supposed trying to get some sort of muggle protection act passed (I cannot remember the precise name since I could not find my copy of CoS). And naturally, Lucius being the man he is would appose anything that would make muggles more equal to wizards. And how would it look to the wizarding community if it was found out that the daughter of the man who supports muggles the most was found to be killing muggle borns at Hogwarts. He would lose all the respect he had and Lucius would get to see Mr. Weasleys ideas (which go against everything he believes in) and family squashed under the pressure of everything. To Lucius, it would be the perfect sort of revenge. Terra Elder From Audra1976 at aol.com Thu Nov 21 02:46:50 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:46:50 EST Subject: Who was in school with Voldemort? Message-ID: <24.2fcf157e.2b0da31a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46884 Yikes, sorry, Barb. I didn't mean to rock your world or anything there. It was merely speculation, simply to spark the imagination. I think I can defend my choices though. They weren't entirely random. Someone else just wrote that McGonagall was only afew years older than Riddle, and I took their word for it rather than doing the math myself. So I was wrong about her. As for the others, we don't know exactly how old they are, but there's a good chance they might have been at Hogwarts at the same time as Riddle. We are *not* talking about a particualr 7 years. If Riddle was in the graduating class of '46, then anyone who graduated in the class of '39 through class of '52 would have been in school at the same time as him. That's 13 years in a row. You want to know where I got Ron's Uncle Bilius? If he is Arthur's brother, he could easily be 10 years old than him, and therefore around Riddle's age. Arthur's children span about 10 years, and Lucius's comment, through Draco, about the Weasleys always having more children than they can afford implies that Arthur came from a big family himself. We don't see any of Ron's cousins at Hogwarts, so unless all his aunts and uncles are childless, Arthur is probably the youngest in his family. Algie, Enid, and Gran have just as much of a chance, if not more. Plus, i don't think JKR would mention these characters and not have them come into play somehow. We have been told very little about Riddle's time at Hogwarts, and will likely hear more. Figg and Fletcher are part of the "old crowd," but personally I don't think they are as old as Dumbledore. Dumbledore is old even for a wizard, and I really hope the "old crowd" are at least under 100 for the most part. We don't know how old they are, so it's *possible* they are Riddle's age, that they would have been in their prime at the same time as Riddle/Voldemort. Nott: He appeared stooped over compared to Crabbe and Goyle, which implies an older man. He may be even older than Riddle, maybe even Dumbledore's age, so he was a longshot, but it was just a suggestion. Sprout: Good suggestion. I hadn't thought of her, but she may be around Riddle's age. Pomfrey, Sinistra, Hooch, and Crouch Sr, since you asked, all seem younger to me than Riddle. Vector and Perkins: I didn't see enough of a description to even make an educated guess at their ages. Audra In a message dated 20/11/2002 10:54:59 Eastern Standard Time, psychic_serpent at yahoo.com writes: > On what are you basing this? According to JKR, McGonagall is about 75 years > old. If she meant 75 in 1995, or at the end of Harry's fifth year, that > would make her born in 1920, so she'd be seven years older than Riddle and > finishing school just before he'd be starting. If JKR meant that she'd > reached that age earlier in the series, that would make McGonagall born in > the late teens (1916-1919) and out of school even sooner. It's possible > that Neville's great uncle or aunt are siblings or one of them is a > sibling-in-law to his gran, but we still don't have any way of knowing how > old any of them are. Where are you getting Ron's Uncle Bilius being in > school at the same time as Riddle? (Especially as an uncle is probably a > sibling to one of his parents, who seem to be about ten years younger than > Riddle, roughly.) Or any of the others, for that matter? There is > absolutely no information in canon concerning the ages of any of these > people. Why not speculate that Sprout, Sinistra, Vector, Pomfrey or Hooch > were in school with Riddle while you're at it? Not to mention Barty > Crouch, Sr., Basil from the Ministry, or Arthur's co-worker, Perkins. > Being part of the "old crowd" (Figg and Fletcher) may in fact mean that > they're closer to Dumbledore's age than Riddle's. And I have no idea why > you think Nott is so old. Riddle would have been in school between 1938 > and 1945, and the only people--in canon--who were also in school at the > same time are Hagrid and Myrtle. Just because someone is older than Harry > doesn't mean they were necessarily in school during the particular seven > years that Riddle was. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sarah at mcfarland.co.uk Thu Nov 21 02:43:55 2002 From: sarah at mcfarland.co.uk (S) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:43:55 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Serpents and Parseltongue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021121024046.02ed1908@pop.ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46885 >Julie wrote: > > So -- Maybe Harry did get his Parselmouth fluency during > > Voldemort's attack, but the fear it inspires among other wizards > > seems based completely on prejudice due to the Slytherin crowd > > having used it to control serpents and make weapons of them. I am new here, so apologies if this has been brought up before, but that ties in with something I have been thinking about lately. I recently started re-reading GoF, and it is glaringly obvious not only how much prejudice and bigotry there is in the wizarding world, but how completely accepted it seems to be. Almost every non-human race is put on a lower status than humans - non humans not being allowed to use wands, giants being so universally hated that even Maxime doesn't want to admit to herself that she is half-giant, many apparently sentient races being legally defined as magical *creatures*. The house elves are a case in point - sentient, intelligent creatures who are legally enslaved. In my opinion, whether some of them like it or not (as with Hogwarts house elves) is a moot point - as the system itself makes no allowances whatsoever for house elves who are mistreated (Dobby and Winkie, for example). It is pure luck whether or not a house elf ends up with a decent employer, or someone who likes to torture him or her for fun. Hogwarts, which is otherwise depicted as one of the strongest refuges against evil, is totally complicit in this, and otherwise decent people (such as Percy Weasley) think it is reasonable to expect total obedience from a house elf. On an even more sinister note, from what I can gather the Unforgivable Curses may not be performed on humans - but I don't recall any ban on performing them on non-humans. A house elf (or goblin, or giant, or any one of a whole list of sentient beings who aren't human) annoys you, and you wave your wand and yell "Crucio"? To me, it is very disturbing if that is acceptable (or legal) behaviour . . . IMO, it has the makings of being one of the main themes of HP. Death Eaters are the obvious fascists of the books, but at least they have a semi-reasonable and acknowledged motivation (personal worth being derived from magical ability and family history of the same), and they are open in their intentions, if not their member lists. The entire system, on the other hand, seems to quietly abuse and discount almost everyone who isn't human. It is much, much more insidious, and perhaps one of the main themes of HP is that not all evil carries an obvious Dark Mark. Also, from Voldemort's point of view: he clearly derives much (all?) of his self-esteem from his magical abilities. If he looks around the supposedly nice and fair wizard world, and finds that the "good guys" will happily do whatever they like to anyone who isn't human, then it is not much of a leap for him to reduce the people he values to wizards . . . then pure-blood wizards. If you can do what you like to a magical house elf, why not do what you like to a non-magical muggle, as well? Grey Wolf said: > I have from time to time heard of animals which will attack for "the >pure pleasure of the hunt" (for example, velocirraptors in Jurasic >Park), but I have never actually seen such animal in real life, nor (I >think) have ever heard of such species. Maybe someone can enlighten me >here. Domestic cats pretty much fit the bill. They hunt for pleasure and to give presents to their humans, and they often play with trapped prey, making killing a long drawn out and painful business. And GW continued: >I think we can discount that one, except from a legal point of view: >both mermaids and centaurs are technically animals, and you can speak >to both, and at least the mermaids have their own language, which you >can learn to speak, since Dumbledore knows it. Also, Fantastical Beasts >tells us that other magical species have their own language (fairies >spring to mind). Ties in with what I was saying above - mermaids, centaurs, and fairies all seem sentient and have a language (centaurs in particular seem to have a sense of morality) - but they are classed as "animals". ~Say From sarah at mcfarland.co.uk Thu Nov 21 02:13:33 2002 From: sarah at mcfarland.co.uk (S) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:13:33 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sorting Muggle-borns ( was: The Basilisk) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021121014607.02ecf248@pop.ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46886 >Say wrote: > >Voldemort was a mudblood, too - his father was a muggle. If he got > >into Slytherin, it makes sense that other muggle-born pupils could, > >as well. And Melody replied: >Actually you have the definition of "mudblood" too encompassing. > >Let me quote (my favorite thing to do lately): >CoS Ch7 >"Mudblood's a really foul name for someone who is Muggle-born -- you >know, non-magical parents." > >Note the pleural parents. Also, no one in the books who has half and >half parents are ever called mudblood. I stand corrected on the definition of mudblood - but on the other hand, off the top of my head I can't think of anyone other than Hermione who gets a hard time because of her parentage. Two other points . . . mudblood or not, Voldemort was certainly half-muggle - which goes against the idea that anyone muggle-born would not be considered worthy for Slytherin. Also, to discriminate only against people with two muggle parents seems odd, to say the least . . . if Hermione married a muggle and had a child by him, that child would be accepted as a half-blood, but his or her mother would still be reviled? Hmm. Going off on a slight tangent, it occurred to me that as much as the likes of the Malfoys hate rmuggles, a whole lot of muggles feel the same way about witches and wizards. Voldemort's father (allegedly) left for no other reason than his wife was a witch, at least one half-blood pupil made reference to his father being "surprised" to find out his wife was a witch, and the Dursleys have a violent and abusive hated of anything that isn't "normal". Going back a couple of hundred years, muggles happily burned suspected witches quite legally (has that been mentioned in the books?). It isn't entirely surprising that a lot of witches and wizards want to return the favours. ~Say From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Nov 21 03:06:34 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 03:06:34 -0000 Subject: TBAY - Snape the Killer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46887 Slumping onto the nearest barstool, Wendy puts her face in her hands for just a moment. "Golly," she mutters under her breath, "I'm not sure I should be here. I thought I'd be safe enough, but now I'm not so sure. I mean, I didn't come here for *this*!" Eileen nods appreciatively, watching Cindy up on the counter singing, "Bang Bang Chitty Chitty Bang Bang!" arm in arm with Charis Julia, whose name is not Julia Charis. (I don't know how I typed that in over and over.) "Welcome to the Bay," says Eileen. "Dangerous, twee, a bit disturbing, but never boring." "You see," Wendy says, thoughtfully, "I came in here tonight feeling very secure in my view of Snape. Oh sure, I don't claim to *know* exactly what happened in his childhood, or anything like that. But I felt like I really had a good understanding of what makes him tick. But now I'm not so sure. I'm feeling a bit confused, really. I've got all sorts of voices in my head, all competing for my attention. Oh wait, I'm not supposed to admit that, even in the Wizarding World, am I?" "That's the Bay for you," says Eileen. "I had such a secure view of the Potterverse before I discovered HPFGU." Wendy continues "On the one hand, I really want to keep refuting this whole Snape As Killer thing. But there is something very compelling about the evidence that Elkins pulled out, as well. So I'm going to try and muddle through this, and hope that you can make some sense of it. After all, you did say you thought the list could do with another debate about all this, right?" "Wendy, we haven't had a good Snape discussion for just ages. And now Cindy has got it going again, I'm in seventh heaven. You see, Severus Snape is one of my favourite characters. Along with Remus Lupin, of course," Eileen finishes the last drops of butterbeer. "So go ahead!" Eileen sits down on a nearby barstool, motioning to George to bring another drink. She has the feeling this may be a long night. This new kid looked fairly normal when she first came in, but now she actually looks a bit dishevelled and, well, manic. That's how it always works out. They come to the Bay quietly. They lurk. They post non-TBAY answers. And then suddenly, they're in there with the best of them, looking as manic and dishevelled as Elkins predicting Hurricane Jo. She would know herself. It was Cindy, Elkins, and Tabouli who got her addicted to the Bay a long, long time ago. "By the way," Wendy says suddenly, "Did you *really* want to be a Wendy when you were young? I've always rather disliked being named after that annoying twit in Peter Pan." "Annoying twit?" says Eileen faintly. "She was my childhood heroine." Wendy looks at her as if she had gone mad. "Of course, I can now see why you'd find her annoying, but I loved the idea of being mother to the lost boys. I was such a traditional little girl. Playing with my dolls." "And torturing them!" calls Elkins, looking up from the LupiFAQ. Avery giggles. George shakes his charming auburn head, and hands Eileen a glass of brandy. "Okay. First this Snape is a Killer thing. As morbidly attractive as I find this idea, I still have a wee problem with it - well, a couple of wee problems, but I'll start with just one. If Snape had really been gung-ho for Voldemort, would Dumbledore have allowed him to teach at Hogwarts all these years? After all, Sirius says in GoF that he doubts Dumbledore would have hired an ex-Death Eater. Well, obviously Sirius was wrong about that, but just how far wrong could he have been? Honestly, do you see Dumbledore allowing someone who truly had the sort of propensity for evil that we've seen in, for example, Malfoy . . ." Wendy glances in Avery's direction, then turns away from him and lowers her voice before finishing, "Or Avery? Would he have hired either of them as Hogwart's professors if they'd repented? I just don't think so." "Why not?" says Eileen. "I wouldn't. But Dumbledore... Dumbledore trusts where others wouldn't, to quote Sirius from memory. Sirius is wrong, we must remember that. "Padfoot Returns" is the Red Herrings chapter. Sirius doesn't think Snape was a Death Eater. He leads us to think that Crouch Jr. was innocent. He gives usthat hilarious line about Crouch Sr. not getting home early enough. (The kid was at Hogwarts 10 months of the year, Sirius!) So, anyway, Dumbledore has decided that Severus Snape has repented, and in his vision of the world, where choice trumps all, I don't see why he would object to having a repentant murderer on the staff, if he was absolutely certain he had repented. And we do know that Dumbledore is certain. Check out the Pensieve chapter. Me, I'm a bit more like Mad-Eye-Moody. Severus Snape would be teaching at no school of mine. But Dumbledore works in mysterious ways. But continue." "I'm willing to ditch my theory that Snape's first murder in the service of Voldemort upset him so much he switched sides. Maybe Snape really never did kill ANYONE as a Death Eater, says Wendy. Wendy notices Avery glaring at her, a muscle above his right eye twitching alarmingly. Pretending not to see this, she takes a deep breath and continues, "So we have Snape with a clean slate, murder-wise anyway. So if Snape really does end up assassinating Karkaroff, wouldn't it be, well, ironic, or at least interesting or something, if the first murder he ever commits is in the service of DUMBLEDORE, and not Voldemort? Does that bang? I can't tell. I'm just too confused right now." "CINDY!" shouts Eileen. "DOES THAT BANG?" Cindy is still too absorbed in her musical routine, which has now changed to Les Miserables, "HERE I STAND AT THE TURNING OF THE YEARS! IS THERE ANOTHER WAY TO GO? I MISSED IT TWENTY LONG YEARS AGO! MY LIFE WAS A WAR THAT COULD NEVER BE WON!" "Ok. I can't get Cindy's attention. And her bang assessements have been rather humpty-dumptied, to tell the truth, recently. So, I'll give my opinion. Yes, it does Bang. But I think it's wildly OOC for Snape and Dumbledore. I still stand by Charis Julia's belief that there is no way Snape is going to be killing Karkaroff in Dumbledore's service. And," she leans closer to Wendy in a conspiriatoral manner, "I don't know if I should be saying this, but Cindy doesn't like Snape. She's always launching attacks on him, and imho, this Karkaroff thing is another Snape sneak attack. But that's neither here nor there. You were going to talk about Snape's past, weren't you? "After all, I told you I think it really cheapens Snape's redemption story to say he never was as horrible as those others." "But that's my point," Wendy says, a bit breathlessly. "It doesn't cheapen the redemption if he's not yet actually *done* the thing for which he needs to be redeemed! At this point, canonically, we know of *nothing* concrete that Snape has done which would necessitate a redemption, do we? Yes, he was a Death Eater, but we have no details of crimes he committed." "A very good point," says Eileen. "I myself think Rowling has something nasty up her sleeve there, something that is going to make Harry blanche." "We've got LOADS more dirt on Sirius Black, for example. We know of a very specific awful thing he did." Wendy looks around nervously, ready to run if a pack of rabid Siruis "Prank" Apologists show up with wands drawn. "Oh don't be worried," says Eileen. "The only rabid Sirius "Prank" Apologist in this room is singing Jean Valjean up there on the counter. She'll hardly notice you." "Why, for all we know, Snape only joined Voldemort specifically to be Dumbledore's spy. I don't happen to believe this, but I can't think of any canon which disproves this." Wendy glances around the pub, challenging anyone to disagree with her. "Yes," says Eileen. "It's quite possible." Wendy clears her throat and continues, "Elkins had some interesting things to say. Quoting from past posts." She looks at Elkins, who is once again engrossed in her work. But Wendy's come to far to give up now, so she walks over to where Elkins is sitting. "Excuse me," she asks, her voice sounding more timid than she intended. Without looking up, Elkins says, "Can I help you?" "Erm, yes, actually. I was hoping you would remind us of some of what you quoted earlier about Snape?" Taking a *very* deep breath, Elkins stops writing. "Which parts? Let's see, I remember the post about how we hear a great deal about Rowling's statement of intent to show how genuinely *bad* evil is in these books, and I laud that sentiment. But evilis also *complicated,* and there are times when I find myself wishing thatRowling would run a little further with that particular ball." "I always sort of thought that this was the point JKR was making - Snape isn't meant to prove that evil is complicated, but that *good* is complicated, too. We shouldn't assume someone is evil just because they aren't nice or pretty or use proper hygiene." "Absolutely, Wendy," says Eileen. "I do think that's the first point to be made about Snape. The PS/SS point. But I think there is more. Elkins, the rest?" Elkins sighs. "As far as Snape specifically, I said that I tend to see him as someone whose *impulses* all lead him in one unerring direction -- but in a direction that he has chosen to reject on abstract and purely philosophical grounds. In other words, I see him as a Dark Wizard. In instinct. In impulse. In inclination. To some extent, perhaps even in essence." "Yes, that's the stuff *exactly*," Wendy gushes. She puts on what she hopes is her most charming smile. "Thanks so much!" Elkins shakes her head and goes back to writing. Wendy turns back to Eileen, looking somewhat pale but rather excited, too. "Okay. I'm really thinking about this one. I could *perhaps* be converted to this school of thought about Snape. But I'm not converted *yet*. If you really want me to buy into this, I'm going to need some more evidence. After all, it pretty much blows away my whole concept of the man I love most in the whole Potterverse." Eileen becomes a bit alarmed as Wendy continues, muttering mostly to herself, "But heck, if I become disollusioned about Snape, I've always got Remus to fall back upon. Unless he turns out to be evil." "Have you ever heard of LYCANTHROPE, Wendy?" asks Eileen. "It's a nasty little TBAY organization devoted to proving Lupin is evil. They've got loads of proof too. Like the fact that Lupin offers Harry candy when he's a stranger." "Well, I suppose," says Wendy disconcertedly. "I could just decide to be evil, too. And if I do *that* then it's open season on Lucius. Oh YES!" "Lucius," says Eileen with a smile, "Is at loose on the bay. Trying to hunt down Elkins, I believe. Met him once in the basement of the Canon Museum. So, if you really want an introduction..." Wendy looks up suddenly, and smiles nervously. "Erm, nevermind all that. Not important." She smiles brightly. "Snape. But is there some eternal law of the universe that says that cruel equals evil? Are there not charming villains?" "Murderers who play Bach," mutters Eileen. "I'm sorry?" asks Wendy. "Back when we had our last big Snape discussion, there was a lot of talk about a German saying, "In my country, murderers play Bach." Elkins, would you mind giving your spin on that?" "I am quite busy with the plot-hole-that-must-not-be-named," says Elkins, "Oh all right. Here you are. Message 34911 ________________________________________________________________ I meant something more along the lines of what Susanna/Pigwidgeon37 was getting at, when she donated that marvellous German saying: "In my country, a lot of murderers play Bach." I have no problem with the portrayal of V's stance as Just Plain Evil. How many nice things can you think to say, after all, about genocide and gratuitous torture? I do have some problems, however, with the portrayal of every single one of V's followers as not only "just plain evil," but also as utterly lacking in any redeeming qualities, or likeable characteristics. Leaving aside for the moment the obvious philosophical objections, I also find it just plain *boring.* Shades of grey make for interesting reading. Noble Heroes vs. Totally Worthless Evil Villains is just kind of a yawn, IMO. Of *course* evil is bad. That's tautological. But the nice old guy who lives next door and helps you jump-start your car on cold winter mornings sometimes turns out to have been in the SS, and the person who called the ambulance when you had your stroke and then stayed with you and held your hand until the paramedics arrived turns out to be a Klan member, and the professional torturer goes home at the end of the day and agonizes over his kid's poor math grades. That's what makes evil complicated. And that's also what makes it *scary.* And for what it's worth (and to get back to the canon), I do think that Rowling did some very nice work with that in GoF. I liked the crowd of drunken revellers at the QWC, whose numbers *grow* as they parade their way through the campground indulging in their spot of muggle-torture. Those people weren't all Death Eaters, not by a long shot. I liked the hissing jeering mob at the Pensieve trial. For that matter, I also liked it when the twins hissed at Malcolm Baddock, and I loved it when Harry started fantasizing, in rather explicit detail, about exactly what it might be like to use the Cruciatus Curse on his least-favorite professor. And, naturally, I always like Snape. *Those* were the sorts of things I was referring to, when I said that I wished that Rowling would "run a little further with that particular ball." And I actually *do* think it not unlikely that she will, in future volumes, go even further in that direction, thus making the notion of somewhat more 3D villain characters than we've seen so far not an altogether subversive suggestion. The books have certainly been heading in that direction; by volume six or so, we might even get a few players of Bach who are *not* (as Snape is) working for the forces of Good. I certainly *hope* so, at any rate. _________________________________________________________ "Does that satisfy you?" asks Elkins. "No, when are you going to write that Crouch post?" spits out Eileen. Wendy rolls her eyes. "Elkins, I think that was extremely satisfying," she says, kicking Eileen in the shins. "That illusrates exactly what I was talking about. Anyway, back to Snape. Of course, I guess the fact that Snape really was a Death Eater could possibly be used as proof that Snape was, at some point, evil." Wendy's lips twist into something that might pass for a smile. "Or maybe not . . . "You see, I have this whole scenario in mind as to why Snape joined the Death Eaters in the first place. And some of it is a bit, er, *adult* in nature. Which makes me wonder what this sort of backstory would be doing in books which are shelved in the children's section, but that's not my problem." Eileen coughs. "Well, the question is what is the book doing in the children's section in the first place. Have you ever heard about Perversion in the Graveyard? Message 40405. And half the list seems convinced that Karkaroff was sexually exploiting Snape, so adding Voldemort to the mix won't... errr... upset anyone that much, especially as "Perversion in the Graveyard Voldemort..." "Without going into all the gory details," interrupts Wendy. "Let's just say that Snape was, for whatever reason, in the market for a substitute father figure and was therefore susceptible to Voldemort's charisma. And Voldemort, if we give him credit for being a *real* evil overlord, and not just a plot device, might have been inclined to take advantage of young Severus in a very specific way. Please don't tell me I have to actually speak aloud what I'm getting at." "Not with this bunch," says George. "I don't have any problem with the idea," says Eileen. "Not my cup of tea, really, but other than that..." "Would teenage Snape have had the ability to defend himself against the certiainly very forceful attentions of this older man?" "No. But don't we face that question however we take our Snape?" asks Eileen. "Elkins once posted that she wondered how her life would have turned out if she had been approached by a Dark Wizard at the age of sixteen. Whether Voldemort was sexually preying on Snape or not, he was preying on Snape. And Avery. And Rosier. And Wilkes. And Mr. Lestrange. And even Mrs. Lestrange of the shining hair, the heavy-lidded eyes, and the fanatical spotlight-hogging. I don't see how this would make Snape less a killer, less a DE." "Wait a second," said Wendy, "what do you think of the theory that Voldemort is fond of Snape, really, and therefore will believe he's still a Death Eater." "I'm inclined to subscribe to it," says Eileen. "There is a canon precedent. "Lucius, my slippery friend." Voldemort obviously is fond of some of the DEs. Not Avery, though. Avery seems to have got on his nerves." "Thankyou," says Wendy, sittng back on her barstool. "Well?" she says to Eileen, "What do you think of killer Snape?" Turning to George, she says confidently, "Bloody Mary, please. Which reminds me, did I mention that I think it's highly likely that Snape might just possibly be a vampire?" Eileen chokes. "You'd want to talk to Pippin about that one," she says. "George, another glass of brandy." "You're sure drinking a lot of brandy," points out Wendy. "Yes, do you know what the significance of brandy is? You see, TBAY brandy is different than real world brandy. Cindy puts something in it that turns the most staid, sycophantish, and bleeding heart theorizers into bloodythirsty fanatics. FEATHERBOAS, we call ourselves. (Foaming Enthusiasts of Ambush, Torture, and Hostility, Embracing Really Bloodthirsty Operations and Savagery.) Cindy founded the organization. The point is I want blood on Snape's hands. You said earlier that you could *perhaps* be converted. So, I'll give it a shot. Elkins!" Elkins lifted up her head wearily. "Evidence for Snape's taste for physical violence, Eileen? I'll warn you that no-one seemed to liked this one, except you, but here you are. Message 35360. _____________________________________________________________ The fact that he *does* indulge himself in his taste for verbal and psychological cruelty every chance he gets, while never engaging in the slightest bit of unwarranted (or at least, as you point out, *uninvited*) physical violence, is my main reason, I think, for suspecting that he genuinely does have a taste for the latter. As I see it, Snape is somebody who works very hard at trying to do the right thing, trying not to descend into whatever it is that he fears that he once was. The fact that he shows not even the slightest sign of *trying* to restrain himself when it comes to psychological sadism indicates to my mind that he really doesn't think that sort of thing very important. To his mind, it doesn't count. He's allowed to indulge himself in that way, because that's not "real" cruelty, not "real" Darkness. Which to my mind begs the question of what Snape *would* consider "real." What are the things that he would on some level like to be doing, or that he once enjoyed, but that he will never again allow himself to do? In short, I certainly agree with you that Snape makes a qualitative distinction between mental violence and physical violence. I would say that he considers the former acceptable, and the latter unacceptable. But given what we know of his past, and given how readily and unhesitatingly -- and even *gleefully* -- he indulges himself in the former, my strong suspicion is that the latter is something that he once did enjoy, and that he fears he might still enjoy, even while believing it to be utterly morally unacceptable. __________________________________________________________________ "So there you are," says Eileen. "Wait a second," says Elkins. "Don't misrepresent me. I also said in the same post: "But at any rate, as I said before, it's not really all that important to me whether or not Severus Snape has an unfortunate taste for real live sadism. I remain convinced that he does, but should it turn out that he never really cared for it at all, that would necessitate only a very minor revision of my reading of the character. And honestly, I'm hoping that we never find out one way or the other. I'm not prepared for the series to get quite *that* dark. I'd really just rather not go there at all, to tell you the truth." "Call yourself a FEATHERBOA?" shouts Cindy from across the room. "So, all right," says Eileen. "You can choose, Wendy, between sadist and non-sadist Snape. I like the first because it makes him so much more interesting, so compelling. To go back to what Elkins said in the first place, his instincts go all one way, and his behaviour go the other. Now, that's heroism. That's courage. That's my Severus Snape!" "Well, I'm not convinced," says Wendy. "That he was ever THAT bad in the first place. Where's the canon?" "Textually," says Eileen. "There isn't any. Metatextually. That's another story. You see... Elkins?" "Message 35530," says Elkins. "A Credo for George." George shudders. "A terrible day," he said. "The day Elkins locked me into a cabin with her, sat me down, and made me commit. I still get chills thinking about that." "Because George -- to put it bluntly -- is a slut," says Elkins quoting herself in Message 35530 with enjoyment. "Anyway, if you want to know where we're coming from, read that message and the follow ups. Message 35533 is very interesting indeed. Cindy gets bored with George and writes, "Now that I think about it, I am going to wrap up all of my theories into one gigantic mega-theory, a theory substantial enough to swallow the entire Potterverse: The Big Bang Theory." Elkins smirks. "Now I really must get back to work. Eileen, explain the rest." "Very well," says Eileen brightly. "The point about Snape is that he's the only example so far in the books of Dumbledores, "It's your choices, Harry..." line. Everyone else is either good or bad, an in almost every case we've seen, it was determined for them in their teens, by their House, their family background etc. (Where are all the virtuous Slytherins, may I ask you?) This something almost Calvinistic going on here. And then we have Snape. (And Peter Pettigrew, on the flip side of things, but that's another story.) If we say Snape was never as bad as the rest of them, we lose the power of his character. The idea that yes, you can be ever-so-evil and then... It's all about... It's all about Redemption!" Not only is it more powerful that way. I have some evidence too that Rowling means it that way. It's the MWPP-L parallel. Peter Pettigrew going over from the side of good to evil, by betraying his friends. Severus Snape, going over from the side of evil to good, by betraying his friends. And otherwise, otherwise, we have a universe where Snape only is redeeemed because he always was better than the others, intrinsic worth and all," Eileen chokes up, and throws herself into Avery's arms, burying her head in his shoulder. He pats her head awkwardly, in best Ron Weasley fashion. Eileen From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Nov 21 04:09:11 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:09:11 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BHPforGrownups=5D_Who_was_in_school_with_Voldemo?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?rt=3F_=A0=28Was:_Re:_Did_Tom_go_to_school_with_James=3F=29?= References: <20021120155230.51876.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <013d01c29113$bfc28e40$919dcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 46888 Audra1976 at aol.com wrote: > Yes, McGonagall is a few years older than Voldemort, but their time at Hogwarts definitely would have overlapped. A few others who might have been students at Barb wrote: > On what are you basing this? According to JKR, McGonagall is about 75 years old. If she meant 75 in 1995, or at the end of Harry's fifth year, that would make her born in 1920, so she'd be seven years older than Riddle and finishing school just before he'd be starting. If JKR meant that she'd reached that age earlier in the series, that would make McGonagall born in the late teens (1916-1919) and out of In the Scholastic October 2000 interview, JKR said: Dumbledore is a hundred and fifty, and Professor McGonagall is a sprightly seventy. Wizards have a much longer life expectancy than Muggles. (Harry hasn't found out about that yet.) I've figured up the dates in the past, and mine don't match the HP Lexicon. I can't figure how theirs came out that way, so I gave up. Here's what I came up with: McGonagall born 1924 Riddle born 1926 McGonagall started at Hogwarts 1935 Riddle started at Hogwarts 1937 Chamber opened 1942 McGonagall leaves Hogwarts 1942 Riddle leaves Hogwarts 1944 This is based on the assumption that McGonagall was seventy at the time of GoF since the interview was done as publicity for GoF. If not, subtract tack on four years and you have: McGonagall born 1920 Riddle born 1926 McGonagall started at Hogwarts 1931 Riddle started Hogwarts 1937 Chamber opened 1942 McGonagall leaves Hogwarts 1938 Riddle leaves Hogwarts 1944 So my figures (which may or may not be anywhere close to accurate!) have them together at Hogwarts between one year and five years. Depending on when McGonagall was actually 70 (SS/PS or GoF). Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From Malady579 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 21 04:16:10 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 04:16:10 -0000 Subject: Muggle-borns (was: Sorting Muggle-borns) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021121014607.02ecf248@pop.ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46889 Say wrote: >I stand corrected on the definition of mudblood - but on the other >hand, off the top of my head I can't think of anyone other than >Hermione who gets a hard time because of her parentage. Well Justin, Colin, and Penelope get a "*hard* time" for being muggle-born as well. ;) But, no we never see another students being harassed about being a muggle-born. In fact, the only person we see harassing anyone about it is Draco. Now the only time we see Draco harassing students is when he is around Harry. In the books, Slytherin and Gryffindor students share classes together but only as a pair. So, since Hermione is the only muggle-born in those shared classes, it would seem she would receive the brunt of Draco's prejudice. Plus it boils Ron's blood which is a lot of fun for Draco to toy with. Draco probably gives other muggle-borns their fair share of insults, but he focuses on Hermione because she is smarter than him, she is Harry's best friend, and she is sassy to him. You know he *loved* that slap she gave him. Probably a little too much IMO. Say had another point: > Two other points . . . mudblood or not, Voldemort was certainly >half-muggle - which goes against the idea that anyone muggle-born >would not be considered worthy for Slytherin. A fair point actually. Salazar was against *all* forms of muggle blood contamination. Over the centuries, it seems his "worshipped" reservations gave way to prudence, and the ones in the WW who carried the hate-all-things-muggle flame thus began generally accepts halfies with little afterthought. I assume this because Riddle does not seemed to be bothered by halfies. Given that he is one, I guess this is also prudence on his part as well, but he does not seem to find their presence so offensive. And Say's second point: >Also, to discriminate only against people with two muggle parents >seems odd, to say the least . . . if Hermione married a muggle and >had a child by him, that child would be accepted as a half-blood, but >his or her mother would still be reviled? Hmm. This was debated a month or so ago. By definition, who exactly does the terms apply? Voldemort calls Harry a halfie, even though Harry is actually a pureblood. The previous discussion seemed to settle with the answer: Since the names come from the very mouths of the bigot, then really it is in the eye of the beholder. If Voldemort labels Harry a halfie in his sick, twisted mind, then to him Harry is a halfie. We could disagree, but really, the man is already on the brink of insanity. What good would it do to point that little misconception out? Melody Who is sitting back with popcorn enjoying the-killer-among-us Snape debate and thoroughly enjoyed Cindy's heart felt rendition of Jean Valjean from Les Mis?rables (forced performance by Eileen, of course). Are you taking encores? I've always been one for "Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" myself but I think "The ABC Cafe - Red and Black" fit this bar room scene much better. ;) From judyshapiro at directvinternet.com Thu Nov 21 05:49:15 2002 From: judyshapiro at directvinternet.com (Judy) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 05:49:15 -0000 Subject: Serpents and Parseltongue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46890 Grey Wolf said, in regards to whether animals can be evil: >>>>I have from time to time heard of animals which will attack for "the pure pleasure of the hunt" (for example, velocirraptors in Jurasic Park), but I have never actually seen such animal in real life, nor (I think) have ever heard of such species.<<<< My cats (and my ankles) would disagree. However, I don't see my cats as evil when they attack my feet; I feel they are not able to understand that they might hurt me. So, I basically agree with Grey Wolf's idea that animals can't be evil. But, does JKR think this? This bring us to Grey Wolf's next comment: >>>> Yes, the way the series are going, I think JKR has somewhere in her list to demeonstrate that snakes are not bad<<< But, Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them repeatedly connects snakes with Dark Wizards. I think JKR *is* setting up some animals to be strongly good (phoenixes) while others are strongly evil (snakes.) This helps to establish the intrinsic goodness of Dumbledore (and perhaps Gryffindor house) while showing the intrinsic evil of Voldemort and Slytherin (both the wizard and the House.) It may not be fair to paint snakes as evil, but it is strongly implied in the books. Julie asked: > And, will we see wizards who can speak other animal languages, for > good and/or evil? Well, it seems that animagi, while they are in animal form, can communicate with their own kind of animal, and perhaps with other kinds. Peter got information on Voldemort's location from other rats, in addition to Sirius communicating with Crookshanks. Just how much of a conversation one can have with a particular animal will depend on the animal's own intelligence level, of course. AnimalLover!Judy From ngaldes at yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 07:40:52 2002 From: ngaldes at yahoo.com (Norbert Galdes) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:40:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: CoS theories In-Reply-To: <200211191543370806.0B4E66B4@mail.indigosky.net> Message-ID: <20021121074052.87684.qmail@web9902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46891 Hi to all, I've been reading posts for quite a while before nerving myself up to contributing anything. So here's my thought about the real significance of CoS. > The petrification is *intentional*. Riddle's > >> initial goal is to scare the Muggleborn out of the school, not to > >> get the place shut down. IMO, the main driver in CoS is Lucius, possibly in consultation with Diary/Riddle but more likely with some other of his DE colleagues. He must have consulted or spoken with someone since we know that Dobby overheard. The purpose would have been to unleash the basilisk on the school - we know that the sole reason for the diary in the first place was for Riddle to preserve the secret of how to open the chamber for future students. Note that the basilisk obeys the instructions of the person who unleashes it, and therefore does not select its victims itself - it's like a programmable attack dog. Why, though? As in any good story, there are layers of reasons and motivation. The main objective, as I see it, would have been to get Dumbledore removed from the school. We know that Lucius moved pretty fast to get the governors to act and brought considerable pressure to bear on them to go along with him, even to the extent of threatening to put a curse on their families. Along the way, his reasoning was that Diary/Riddle would probably get to hear about Harry Potter and his history and would obviously be stimulated to attack Harry as well. Lucius would thus be setting in motion a sequence of events as part of the very much ongoing secret and dirty war in the WW calculated to advance the interests of the 'Dark' side. Why try to remove Dumbledore? Well, we can be sure that Lucius would have heard of LV's attempt to resurrect himself in PS/SS and would be taking measures to bring about Dumbledore's removal from a place of some power/authority and get him discredited in the magical community. If he can manage to remove Harry also, then so much the better - 2 major obstacles removed. Norbert __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From jayenks at yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 08:02:47 2002 From: jayenks at yahoo.com (Jackie) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 00:02:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Colin's camera, Myrtle's glasses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021121080247.59993.qmail@web40312.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46892 BBoy asks >>Q: Why did't Myrtle's glasses protect her? pippin_999 wrote: A: Because glasses or no glasses, she still looked DIRECTLY into the eyes of the basilisk. The only other person to look at the basilisk through a lense was Colin. So why was he protected and not Myrtle? (snip) I am afraid we are being way too technical here, since Rowling took dramatic license in the Hospital Wing scene. Either that, or she knows zilch about photography. If Colin *had* managed to capture his attacker on film, the image would have been ruined anyway when Albus opened the camera, exposing the undeveloped film to light. Me~ Yes, I agree, much too technical. In my mind, the type of camera would be a cheapo home model, or perhaps amateur photographer's camera. Who gives an eleven year old an expensive camera anyway? So, he must have been looking through the lens. But then, Myrtle's glasses would have protected her, right? Well, read about the way she died: COS chapter 16: the Chamber of Secrets "Ooooh, it was dreadful," she said with relish. "It happened right here. I died in this very stall. I remember it so well. I'd hidden because Olive Hornby was teasing me about my glasses. The door was locked, and I was crying, and then I heard somebody come in. They said something funny. A different language, I think it must have been. Anyway, what really got to me was that it was a boy speaking. So I unlocked the door, to tell him to go and use his own toilet, and then--" Myrtle swelled importantly, her face shining. "I died." I had to read this three or four times before I hit on an answer. She was in the bathroom crying. I don't know if anyone else on here wears glasses, but I have, and if you cry in them, you only do it once. Icky. Your eyes swell, and your eyelashes start flicking tears onto the glasses, and they fog up, not fun. Most of the people I know take their glasses off when they cry. I think it is especially likely in this case since Myrtle was crying over being teased about them. I would have taken them off immediately and thrown them across the room. She probably just took them off and put them in a pocket, however, because she still has them as a ghost. Do we know if ghost clothes are removable/changeable like that? Like, can Sir Nicholas unbotton his collar? Or could Myrtle take glasses out of her pocket and wear them? BTW-for those that are confused over the "the teaser words on JKR's note" like I was, here is a link to an article: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=638&u=/nm/20021120/en_nm/arts_potter_dc&printer=1 ~Jaye --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ashfae at technicaldetails.org Thu Nov 21 03:24:05 2002 From: ashfae at technicaldetails.org (Ashfae) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:24:05 -0700 (MST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The teaser words on JKR's note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46893 > From: mikiep0908 > > On that note, I'm sure everyone has seen the teaser that is going to > be on auction next month. I'm sure that many people are going to be > immediately attracted to the word "dies," however, the words that > interest me are "Ron" and "broomstick." I actually know nothing at all about this teaser. What is it? Where can I find information? Is anyone willing to give me several million dollars to bid with? AUGH! Please tell, for those of us ignorant. > Does this mean that Ron is about to take Wood's place on the > Quidditch team? If he does, this could very weel be the shot at > glory that Ron has been craving for so long. Well, he has now earned a Special Award For Services to the School, and none of his brothers have done that; so already Ron has more fame than he expected ever to have. But I'd be delighted for him to make the Gryffindor Quidditch team. Hurrah. As for the word "dies," I am willing to lay any amount of money that Hagrid dies in book five. (a friend of mine and I actually do ave a bet as to if it will be Hagrid or Dumbledore!) Ashfae From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Nov 21 11:43:45 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:43:45 -0000 Subject: Ghost clothes (was: Re: Colin's camera, Myrtle's glasses) In-Reply-To: <20021121080247.59993.qmail@web40312.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46894 Jackie wrote: >Do we know if ghost clothes are removable/changeable like that? Like, >can Sir Nicholas unbotton his collar? Or could Myrtle take glasses out >of her pocket and wear them? > > ~Jaye We have been described in several ocations the clothes of Nearly Headless Nick, and how they change for each occasion (I don't have the books handy at this point, so you'll have to look up your own examples). For example, IIRC, he sometimes wears a doublet with a high neck that helps keep his head in place (which automatically implies that sometimes he doesn't), and in his deathday party he wears something formal, I think. In my opinion, this means that ghosts can indeed change clothes. I doubt they have to buy them or adquire them in any way, though. Probably if they can picture themselves wearing the clothes it will be enough. Thus, by this theory, Myrtle still thinks herself short-sighted and wills some glasses that "correct" her vision. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From heidit at netbox.com Thu Nov 21 11:55:29 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidi tandy) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 06:55:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The teaser words on JKR's note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <010b01c29154$e636b2e0$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 46895 > > > > > From: mikiep0908 > > > > On that note, I'm sure everyone has seen the teaser that is going to > > be on auction next month. I'm sure that many people are > going to be > > immediately attracted to the word "dies," however, the words that > > interest me are "Ron" and "broomstick." Ashfae I actually know nothing at all about this teaser. What is it? > Where can I find information? Is anyone willing to give me several > million dollars to bid with? AUGH! Please tell, for those of > us ignorant. I posted about the teaser yesterday on both The Leaky Cauldron (where I am an editor - http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org) and on HPfGU's Announcements list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-announcements) so you can find the full text there. Basically, JKR has created an index card with 93 words about and from OoTP on it - and Sotheby's is auctioning it off for charity later this month. A group of us at The Leaky Cauldron are interested in putting together a bid for it - it's expected to go for about 6000 pounds, so we expect to post later today with info about how people can donate, and I'll be posting to Announcements then too. And over on our HPfGU-OTChatter list, people are coming up with slightly outlandish guesses as to what the 13 words released so far mean - and FictionAlley (http://www.fictionalley.org/fictionalleypark) is likely going to be having a fanfic and fanart challenge featuring the words this holiday season, so stay tuned for that as well. Heidi, reporting for the fandom since 2000 From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Nov 21 12:40:37 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 07:40:37 EST Subject: TBAY: Snape the Killer/ Filk: My Lord Message-ID: <23.27d3467d.2b0e2e45@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46896 Diana really enjoyed working in George's Bar far more than she ever let on. The quality of conversation that she overheard was very high and it was clear that this was the place where the brightest minds in Theory Bay chose to hang out and chew over their latest theories. Although she sometimes had difficulty in following all the trains of thought, especially when she had forgotten that she was supposed to be serving other people, not herself, she couldn't help joining in occasionally. One of the Bar's regulars, George's close friend Eileen, was deep in conversation with her new acquaintance, Wendy. Eileen looked a bit sceptical. "But Wendy, I told you I think it really cheapens Snape's redemption story to say he never was as horrible as those others." "But that's my point," Wendy says, a bit breathlessly. "It doesn't cheapen the redemption if he's not yet actually *done* the thing for which he needs to be redeemed! At this point, canonically, we know of *nothing* concrete that Snape has done which would necessitate a redemption, do we? Yes, he was a Death Eater, but we have no details of crimes he committed. We've got LOADS more dirt on Sirius Black, for example. We know of a very specific awful thing he did." Wendy looks around nervously, ready to run if a pack of rabid Siruis "Prank" Apologists show up with wands drawn. "Why, for all we know, Snape only joined Voldemort specifically to be Dumbledore's spy. I don't happen to believe this, but I can't think of any canon which disproves this." Diana pulled off her rubber gloves, to reveal long nails, painted blood red, the same colour as her lipstick. "I agree that it could be very tempting to suggest that Sqeaky-Clean!Snape joined Voldemort specifically as Dumbledore's spy...but I don't think he can have done. Just think about Dumbledore's evidence in the Pensieve: 'Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk.' If he had only been a sham DE, a spy put in place by Dumbledore, why didn't he say that? Why suggest that there was any changing of sides, any *turning* to spying at all? "As for knowing nothing that he has done to necessitate a redemption....Wendy, he was a *Death Eater*. One of Lord Voldemort's inner circle. One of the *younger* members, probably, of the inner circle and therefore perhaps more likely to be directly in the fray, rather than taking up a managerial position directing operations. I mean what *did* DE!Severus do, then? He wasn't baking cakes for the next DE Bring and Buy sale, or circulating houses with 'Support Your Local Evil Overlord' campaign leaflets now, was he? "Unless Snake-Face wanted him for other" (she shuddered) "reasons, at which you've hinted. I suppose those might have let him off other duties. "But let's not go there. I know I myself proposed that Snape turned to Voldemort in search of a father figure, feeling let down by Dumbledore. But I didn't have exactly *that* kind of 'fathering' in mind. "Let's just think about what we know about what some of the named DEs got up to." Diana picked up the well-thumbed hardback copy of GOS which was leaning against a half empty bottle of single malt, poured herself a glass of the latter and started to turn the pages. "Yes...Page 511, Karkaroff's testimony. Dolohov - tortured countless Muggles and non-supporters of Voldemort. Page 512. Rosier, who took part of Moody with him, when killed, resisting arrest. Travers helped murder the McKinnons - helped, that means that others were involved too. Mulciber forced countless people to do horrific things under Imperius. Now Augustus Rookwood," - Cindy and Eileen both perked up at the mention of this name, "(whom I have recently been persuaded by others is ever-so-sexy, no mean achievement for a man who not only doesn't speak, but isn't even *seen*), is merely accused of passing information. But look, you can kill someone by passing on information, can't you? Conspiracy to murder is morally no different from the act of murder itself, is it? And Snape, as far as we know wasn't in a position to pass on any useful information, anyway, until he joined Dumbledore,so that's unlikely to have been his role at that stage. "Now, who else is there? The Lestranges, Crouch Jr and Fourth Man." Avery visibly shrank further into his corner and Eileen shot protective looks in his direction. "Torturing the Longbottoms (p 516). Not nice people. Not nice at all. Pettigrew (p 553) AKs Cedric Diggory without a second thought. Malfoy (p564), *still* ready to take the lead in a spot of Muggle torture. Macnair (p 565) slaughtering dangerous beasts, but thanking Voldemort for a promise of better victims. "These are the Death Eaters. They kill, they torture, they betray people. Can you name me one who didn't? Do you really..." Diana paused to drape a pink flamingo-feather boa (which clashed horribly with her nails and lips) around her neck, "Do you *really* think that Severus could have got away with being part that crowd and not doing anything of which he might later be ashamed? "Because I don't buy it," she said, tossing her featherboa over her shoulder meaningfully. "No, he was part of it, doing whatever he did, a fully paid-up DE. I don't know what his specialty was - they do seem to specialise somewhat, don't they? But I'll bet he had one. What do you think, folks? Torturer? He'd be good at that," She sighed involuntarily and then got a grip on herself. I mean, there's Bent and there's Bent. "Or supplier of poisons and other evil brews from his cauldron?" At that point, the lights in the bar suddenly dimmed. A spotlight focussed on the small stage lit up George's face. He'd obviously been playing with Marina's make-up again and was sporting a pink feather boa just like his sister's and which in fact had been maufactured from the same poor beast which Eloise had once despatched, having found it wandering round a gothic catherdral for whose ambience it did absolutely nothing (it's a long story). He pointed his wand at his throat, whispered, "Sonorous" and his magically magnified voice boomed out, "Meine Damen und Herren, Mesdames et Mesieurs, Ladies and Gentlemen; it is almost midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil. You have only ten seconds in which to hone your Snapetheories! Five- four- three- two- one! It is time for Cabaret! And all was dark for a second, until the spotlight instead illuminated a tall, thin dark figure standing provocatively, one foot raised upon a chair, chin supported on the slender fingers of one hand. He fixed the audience with his black, tunnel-like eyes. Around him, a chorus of women, suitably attired (you've seen the film), sat astride more chairs. He started to sing (and dance). (Snape) In trusting me you make a great mistake, My Lord. Though I'm a Slytherin, I'm not a snake, My Lord. My loyalty to you is now a fake, My Lord. So I do... What I do... When I'm through... Then I'm through... And I'm through... Toddle-oo! So it's goodbye, My Lord. I've left you now, My Lord. Served of my own accord, But now I'm going. Though you I once adored My past I now deplore, I'm better off without you, My Lord. Don't look too close, My Lord Can't be exposed, My Lord I've told you I'm your faithful double-agent. Please don't suspect me now You mustn't guess just how Much reason you've to doubt me, My Lord. The world of sorcery and magic's wide, My Lord. Diagon'lly, up and down, and side to side, My Lord. But from you I would find no place to hide, My Lord. So I do... What I can... Brew by brew Spell by spell Curse by curse *Not* your man. So it's goodbye, My Lord, I've left you now, My Lord, Served of my own accord, But now I'm going. Though you I once adored Now I'm with Dumbledore I'm better off without you, My Lord. (Snape and Chorus of Snapefans) Don't look too close, My Lord, Can't be exposed, My Lord, I've told you I'm your faithful double-agent. Please don't suspect me now, You mustn't guess just how Much reason you've to doubt me, My Lord. Eloise Who saw the reissue of Cabaret at the cinema the other night and had an insantaneous vision of Severus singing "Mein Herr". [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Nov 21 14:50:04 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:50:04 -0000 Subject: killerbeasts, patronus, 1st series of attacks, morality Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46897 Grey Wolf: >>I have from time to time heard of animals which will attack for "the pure pleasure of the hunt" (for example, velocirraptors in Jurasic Park), but I have never actually seen such animal in real life, nor (I think) have ever heard of such species. Maybe someone can enlighten me here. << There are at least two: cats...and humans. Eva asked: >>What kind of Patronus would Ron, Hermione and Ginny have? Personally I see Hermione with a Kneazle, Ginny with a Pegasus and Ron I don't know?<< That's easy. Ron's patronus is a giant, bouncing ferret Jodel said: >>Possibly, Myrtle was the ONLY one to go. We've heard nothing about any series of petrifications 50 years ago<< >From Riddle's chapter 13 conversation with Dippet "all these attacks," "source of all this unpleasantness," "if it all stopped," "these attacks"and his conversation with Hagrid, "these attacks." Grey Wolf again: >> Dumbledore needs Voldemort to be mortal so it can be destroyed (or redeemed, or whatever), and has guided Voldemort into using a potion that is flawed. This method has caused accidental deaths, and this is what the attack used to say that Dumbledore is respoinsible for Voldemort's actions. The fact that, left to his own devices, Voldemort would've killed many more people has been ignored by the oposition (IIRC, the last time that point was debated, I proposed a simple moral problem: if you are faced with a building in flames, and you can only save a room with eight people, or one with two, what would you do?<< Eh? That is not a moral problem, Grey Wolf, it is a logistical one. If I were Dumbledore, I would use a simple flame-freezing charm and save them all. Since I'm not, I would of course save the eight people, but that is not the most virtuous solution, it is only the most efficient one. One might consider efficiency a virtue in itself. Vernon Dursley surely does, but Dumbledore? I can't think of any time when Dumbledore did something or recommended a course of action because it would be efficient. Can you? Pippin From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 15:27:26 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:27:26 -0000 Subject: Snape, Spy and Assassin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46898 Judy (judyshapiro) wrote: > I'm completely convinced that Snape's task at the end of GoF is to > return to spying on Voldemort. and Monika (monika_zaboklicka) replied: > Noo! It's too dangerous for him! No, please, no!!!! Now me: I think the best argument in opposition to Snape returning to spy for Voldemort is found in Harry's musings during the leaving feast in Ch. 37 of GoF: "What was it that Snape had done on Dumbledore's orders, the night that Voldemort had returned? And why...*why*...was Dumbledore so convinced that Snape was truly on their side? He had been their spy, Dumbledore had said so in the Pensieve. Snape had turned spy against Voldemort, 'at great personal risk.' Was that the job he had taken up again? Had he made contact with the Death Eaters, perhaps? Pretended that he had never really gone over to Dumbledore, that he had been, like Voldemort himself, biding his time?" IMO, if Snape had really gone back to spy for Voldemort, I don't think JKR would have laid it out so nicely for us. She's just too sneaky and tricky for that. Monika again: > And Snape was publicly named as a spy for Dumbledore. Me again: I agree that this is yet another reason in support of Snape not being able to return as Voldemort's spy. Snape's serving as Dumbledore's spy was announced to the entire courtroom during Karkaroff's trial. Ch. 30 of GoF: "Dumbledore had got to his feet. 'I have given evidence already on this matter,' he said calmly. 'Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am.'" Monika again: > Of course we all love Snape! Who's more lovable in all of HP > universe?! Me again: Had I been in the courtroom during Karkaroff's trial, I would have shared Real!Moody's "look of deep scepticism" after hearing Dumbledore's assertion of Snape's loyalty. ~Phyllis From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Nov 21 12:53:17 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 06:53:17 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Colin's camera, Myrtle's glasses References: <20021121080247.59993.qmail@web40312.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3DDCD73D.F07EAB45@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46899 Why do people assume that Colin's camera was a muggle one? He might have gotten it in Diagon Alley and opening the back of it might be the normal way to retrieve the pictures as it might not even use 'film' in the same way as a muggle camera and might have had something that converted into those moving photos... Jazmyn From little_jedi at hotmail.com Thu Nov 21 13:25:41 2002 From: little_jedi at hotmail.com (Kim Kenobi) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:25:41 -0000 Subject: Time Of Trelawney's First In-Reply-To: <9l4dnb+3ghq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46900 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > Many people speculate that Trelawney's first true prediction had > something to do with the Potters and it was that prediction that made > Voldemort try to kill them. > > According to the Lexicon's timeline, the year of the attack was > Charlie Weasley's fourth at Hogwarts. We might assume that Bill was > there too. > > So, do you think we might learn from one of the two older Weasley's > what her prediction was? Or maybe they had something to do with it? > > Marcus I argee that her first prediction is related to the Potters and why Voldemort tried to kill them. Do you think it possible that Trelawny predicted that the heir of Gryffindor would destroy the Heir of Slytherin? This would, afterall, seem to explain why Voldemort wanted Harry and James dead, and yet seemed slightly reluctant to kill Lily (I am of course assuming that Godric's link to Harry is through his father's side). However, that begs the question - can the future be changed and can characters escape 'destiny'? If this theory is correct, it would certianly suggest that Voldemort could do something about the fate of Slytherin's heir. What do you think? We know that Dumbledore knows about Trelawny's first accurate prediction which suggests that he was there to see her in the trance, which in turn suggests that it did not take place in class, where students might have seen it (afterall, what would Dumbledore be doing in a divination class?). Since she does not seem to emerge from her classroom/study/place of rest much, would Dumbledore have had to go and see her especially? Was he somehow involved in the prediction? Hopefully we'll find out, or else my little mind might go insane. ^_~ -KimberleyKenobi (Newbie alert :P) From wind3213 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 21 15:40:51 2002 From: wind3213 at hotmail.com (Shauna) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:40:51 -0000 Subject: killerbeasts, ... morality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46901 > Grey Wolf: > > >>I have from time to time heard of animals which will attack for > "the pure pleasure of the hunt" (for example, velocirraptors in > Jurasic Park), but I have never actually seen such animal in real > life, nor (I think) have ever heard of such species. Maybe > someone can enlighten me here. << Pippin: > There are at least two: cats...and humans. Just curious - do you know if cats still in the wild would do this? Because domesticated cats might still have a irresistible biological impulse to hunt, causing them to chase mice even when they're well-fed - which isn't quite the same as, say, a lion finishing her meal and deciding she wants to chase gazelles for fun. As for humans - well, I certainly agree there. My old school use to give us a holiday on the first day of hunting season. (In exchange, we had to go to school on Martin Luther King day. Ironic, isn't it?) Grey Wolf: > >> Dumbledore needs Voldemort to be mortal so it can be > destroyed (or redeemed, or whatever), and has guided > Voldemort into using a potion that is flawed. This method has > caused accidental deaths, and this is what the attack used to > say that Dumbledore is respoinsible for Voldemort's actions. > The fact that, left to his own devices, Voldemort would've killed > many more people has been ignored by the oposition (IIRC, the > last time that point was debated, I proposed a simple moral > problem: if you are faced with a building in flames, and you can > only save a room with eight people, or one with two, what would > you do?<< Pippin: > Eh? That is not a moral problem, Grey Wolf, it is a logistical one. > If I were Dumbledore, I would use a simple flame-freezing charm > and save them all. Since I'm not, I would of course save the eight > people, but that is not the most virtuous solution, it is only the > most efficient one. I'm not sure what the argument thus far has been (being as the utter lack of workable "up-threads" at this group astounds me) but I always thought the morality issue with the burning building was, do you save the group of 8 strangers, or the group of 2 - when those two people happen to be friends of yours? Then it becomes a matter of putting principle above emotion (oooh. snapelike). Pippin: > One might consider efficiency a virtue in itself. Vernon Dursley > surely does, but Dumbledore? I can't think of any time when > Dumbledore did something or recommended a course of action > because it would be efficient. Can you? Efficiency is probably a secondary virtue - barring other factors, I'd say Dumbledore would go by it. But not necessarily at the expense of anything else. I'd say most of Dumbledore's decisions are too complicated for efficiency to rank high in his decision-making process. But as for the situation above (with potions? ::rubs head, confused::) it strikes me more of as an 'ends justify the means' type mentality, which is not Dumbledoresque at all. ~ Shauna From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Thu Nov 21 17:00:15 2002 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (kaarlo moran) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:00:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The teaser words on JKR's note In-Reply-To: <010b01c29154$e636b2e0$0301a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46902 > > A group of us at The Leaky Cauldron are interested in putting together a > bid for it - it's expected to go for about 6000 pounds, so we expect to > post later today with info about how people can donate, and I'll be > posting to Announcements then too. > I don't pretend to understand the legalities of it all, but is it going to be legal to publish the teaser words after the end of auction? Would JKR approve of it? Just a thought... From heidit at netbox.com Thu Nov 21 17:06:01 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidi tandy) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:06:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The teaser words on JKR's note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005901c29180$5dd81980$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 46903 > Real-To: kaarlo moran > > > > > A group of us at The Leaky Cauldron are interested in > putting together > > a bid for it - it's expected to go for about 6000 pounds, > so we expect > > to post later today with info about how people can donate, > and I'll be > > posting to Announcements then too. > > > > I don't pretend to understand the legalities of it all, but > is it going to be legal to publish the teaser words after the > end of auction? Would JKR approve of it? Just a thought... Actually, this is a copyright issue - the owner of a letter or notecard owns the notecard or letter, and can do anything with it, but cannot make copies of it - this is one of the questions we have in to Sotheby's and one of the reasons we're waiting to start the collection. Heidi From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Nov 21 17:19:03 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:19:03 -0000 Subject: Some Day Her Proofs Will Come (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46904 Some Day Her Proofs Will Come (to the tune of Some Day My Prince Will Come, from Snow White) Dedicated to Pippin THE SCENE: The offices of Bloomsbury Books, London. The publisher looks wistfully out the window, wondering if today might be the day that the eagerly-anticipated manuscript arrives PUBLISHER Some day her proofs will come Some day she'll send her text And away to the printer we'll go To make a billion dollars or so Some day, this spring perhaps We'll win such rave reviews Phoenix birds will sing And registers will ring Some day when Rowling comes through (A Fed Ex truck pulls up in front, and the driver disembarks with a manuscript. Could this be the long-anticipated Phoenix? Alas! It is merely the a Greek edition of the lost 113 plays of Sophocles, with accompanying English translations. Sighing with disappointment, the publisher resumes his vigil.) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Nov 21 17:50:21 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:50:21 -0000 Subject: Serpents and Parseltongue In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021121024046.02ed1908@pop.ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46905 Sarah wrote: > I recently started re-reading GoF, and it is glaringly obvious not > only how much prejudice and bigotry there is in the wizarding world, > but how completely accepted it seems to be. Almost every non-human > race is put on a lower status than humans - non humans not being > allowed to use wands, giants being so universally hated that even > Maxime doesn't want to admit to herself that she is half-giant, many > apparently sentient races being legally defined as magical > *creatures*. There is indeed much prejudice and bigotry in the WW, but nonetheless your examples are wrong. There are indeed non-human races that are equal to wizards. Goblins are the perfect example. In fact, goblins are powerful indeed, since they control wizard economy through Gringotts. Giants are not directly discussed, but may fall within the cathegory of beings that were put in the beast cathegory for being unable to control their own brutal natures (like manticores and acromantulas). I agree with such clasification: no matter how intelligcent a creature might be, if it's a danger to all around him due to lack of self-control, it is a beast. Grouping half-creatures with their non-human parents *is*, however, an error. From the examples so far, it seems that half-giants have no problem controlling their natures and thus they should be offered a place in the beings, since they have shown the capacity to understand and follow laws. The wand issue is something of a mistery. Elves in particular we know are not allowed to use wands, but it is beside the point, since they're so very more powerful than humans anyway that they don't seem to need it (for example, they are able to apparate within Hogwarts, which no human can). Hagrid, when speaking of his giant heritage seems to imply that Giants can't do magic, so wands would be useless to them. This definetely aplies to mermaids, who were extremelly afraid of Harry's wand, and possibly to centaurs as well. And most other creatures don't have *hands* to use the wands with, so it's useless to them too. Finally, we have centaurs and mermaids. Both were given a seat as beings in the conferences, but both have rejected it, so they are classifid as beasts until they decide to change that. They did that because they wanted to be independent from humans. And they are free to do so, IMO (although your reasoning seems to go the other way: they should be beings because you ant them to, if I've read you correctly). > The house elves are a case in point - sentient, intelligent creatures > who are legally enslaved. In my opinion, whether some of them like it > or not (as with Hogwarts house elves) is a moot point - as the system > itself makes no allowances whatsoever for house elves who are > mistreated (Dobby and Winkie, for example). It is pure luck whether > or not a house elf ends up with a decent employer, or someone who > likes to torture him or her for fun. Hogwarts, which is otherwise > depicted as one of the strongest refuges against evil, is totally > complicit in this, and otherwise decent people (such as Percy > Weasley) think it is reasonable to expect total obedience from a > house elf. I agree that there should be laws that would protect house elves from abuse, but that's as far as I'm willing to go. As many other people that have raised the issue of elf rights, you are trying to impose your own views of morality and what they "need" on them. I assume (although you haven't stated it as such) that you agree with Hermione's campaign. I am totally against it: I feel it's wrong and that it won't help the elves at all. But since you haven't actually stated that opinion, I'll refrain from comenting. You have raised the issue that Hogwarts is wrong at using elves, and that Percy is likewise wrong at expecting total obedience. Let's tackle them. Percy was right at expecting such thing since elves take pride in being faithful to their masters. The problem with Winky is that she was sacrified in the altar of politics (i.e. she had been obedient but her master was going to acuse her of his own errors). If Percy had the one been sacked for obeying, he would have felt much like Winky did. To resume, yes, it is not unreasonable to expect total obedience from an elf, as long as the commands you give them are within the capabilities of the elf itself, since that's the way they are - it's in their nature. There are exceptions, maybe, but in general what pleases an elf is to be able to serve (the moral teachings of Christ run in the same direction: he who desires to be the first should be the lowest of them all, etc.). Now, Hogwarts employs elves. Those elves are given uniforms and they are given freedom to work or not. And all the elves chose to work, preparing food and cleaning their home. And yet you -and Hermione- feel that this is wrong. You'll have to expand that argument a little bit more, though, since I see nothing wrong with the elves' situation at Hogwarts. > On an even more sinister note, from what I can gather the > Unforgivable Curses may not be performed on humans - but I don't > recall any ban on performing them on non-humans. A house elf (or > goblin, or giant, or any one of a whole list of sentient beings who > aren't human) annoys you, and you wave your wand and yell "Crucio"? > To me, it is very disturbing if that is acceptable (or legal) > behaviour . . . Again, you are misreading the situation (or at least reading it diferently of how I read it). Unforgivables are spells that, if used on a human being, carry a life sentence in Azkaban. This means that, if you use an unforgivable, you are sent to Azkban without trial or chance to defend yourself (or maybe that, if guilty, the minimun sentence is life imprisonment). It says nothing more - anything you wish to read is open to interpretation. The way I read it, if you use an unforgivable in any other creature, you are trialed and given a chance to explain yourself, but that's it. You might still wind up in Azkaban with a life sentance if you cannot justify yourself. > Also, from Voldemort's point of view: he clearly derives much (all?) > of his self-esteem from his magical abilities. If he looks around the > supposedly nice and fair wizard world, and finds that the "good guys" > will happily do whatever they like to anyone who isn't human, then it > is not much of a leap for him to reduce the people he values to > wizards . . . then pure-blood wizards. If you can do what you like to > a magical house elf, why not do what you like to a non-magical > muggle, as well? I have to point out that Voldemort was better than the MoM in that respect: he gave the giants the oportunity to fight against the system, and will do the same again, a well as tending a hand to Dementors. He may be planning to destroy both races later, but there is no reason for it: Voldemort sees beyond the forms to the darkness beneath, and is willing to have allies that think like he does. That is good from a certain point of view. > And GW continued: > > >I think we can discount that one, except from a legal point of view: > >both mermaids and centaurs are technically animals, and you can > >speak to both, and at least the mermaids have their own language, > >which you can learn to speak, since Dumbledore knows it. Also, > >Fantastical Beasts tells us that other magical species have their > >own language (fairies spring to mind). > > Ties in with what I was saying above - mermaids, centaurs, and > fairies all seem sentient and have a language (centaurs in particular > seem to have a sense of morality) - but they are classed as > "animals". > > ~Say Wrong again, I fear. As I said before, wizards were willing to classify both centaurs and mermaids as beings, but both species decided against it and decided to be considered beasts. You cannot acuse the WW of unfairness for that. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From cindysphynx at comcast.net Thu Nov 21 17:52:16 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:52:16 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Assassin!Snape and Karkaroff's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46906 The hour grew late in the Tavern, but the crowd inside was growing more boisterous rather than retiring for the night. George, eager to finally wring some profit from the joint before the approaching storm blew the Tavern straight to the bottom of the Bay itself, has given the Snape theorists a well-appointed back room where they can raise their voices without disturbing the more sedate Florence theorists at the bar. With great ceremony, he placed an enormous cardboard box of pristine yellow flags in the center of the rectangular table, breaking the seal with a snap as the crowd murmered in anticipation. Cindy pushed through the crowd to claim the last straight-backed chair at the table, her back to the wall. Tavern regulars Charis, Pippin, Eileen and Marina were there, as were a number of Snape specialists of considerable renown, a few GEORGIANS and quite a number of energetic newcomers. Her eyes flicked from side to side as she struggled to conceal her frayed nerves. "Tough crowd," Cindy muttered to herself. "Not a single bona fide Banger in the bunch." Cindy glanced up at the smartly dressed and alluring stranger seated across the rectangular table. Her silky black hair obscured her delicate features as she studied her notes, and Cindy squinted at her, struggling to place her. "Hey, you look familiar. I know you from someplace, don't I?" The stranger smiled demurely. "I'm Judy Serenity. I'm a local Snape Scholar, and I couldn't help overhearing your conversation in the bar." "Oh, *now* I remember," Cindy said. "We talked about Snape many months ago, when Theory Bay was little more than a bone dry gulley. We disagreed about why Dumbledore would have trusted Snape after Snape became a DE. I was saying that Snape would have to do something Big to get back into Dumbledore's good graces, and you were saying that Dumbledore would trust Snape without it." Cindy smiled broadly and eased back in her seat. "So. Have you come to change your mind about that? Are you about to admit that No One Trusts Anyone in the wizarding world without concrete proof of their loyalty?" "Not a chance," Judy replied defiantly. "I stand by everything I said before, and in fact, it is equally applicable here. It's the flip side of the very same coin, isn't it? We were wondering why Dumbledore would trust Snape, and now we're wondering why Voldemort would trust Snape." "I'm with Judy on this," said Pippin, nodding. "I think Snape went to offer his services as a spy to Voldemort and was accepted at the end of GoF, after a Crucio or two." "Precisely," Judy said. "Voldemort, being an Evil Overlord and all, doesn't want to believe that Snape actually was spying on him and is quite prepared to take Snape's word for it. Evil Overlords are just like that sometimes." "Voldemort *knows* Snape betrayed him and *knows* that Snape has been working with Dumbledore for over a decade, is just going to assume that Snape can be trusted back in Voldemort's inner circle?" Cindy exclaimed. "Oh, I'm not buying that. See, the Evil Overlord character has to make some mistakes so that the hero can win, but the author can't take it too far. The readers will never accept Sucker!Voldemort. I mean, what does canon tell us about DEs who actually *do* betray Voldemort?" At this, Avery slid several inches lower in his seat. Eileen slipped her arm around his hunched shoulders and whispered a few comforting words about redemption. "Voldemort tortures DEs who aren't loyal. That's our buddy Avery over there," Cindy said. "Incompetent DEs get tortured too. That's Wormtail. And DEs who are cowardly 'pay,' which also sounds like torture. But you guys think DEs who actively *betray* Voldemort also get off with Cruciatus and a really wicked scolding? No way. No, I still say Snape is going to have to do something huge to bring Voldemort around." "Well," Judy said thoughtfully, "Maybe Voldemort believes he can infallibly detect lies." "Oh, goodness. Does anyone think Voldemort is *that* sloppy? See, Voldemort has made his share of mistakes, all right. But Voldemort has never willfully disregarded a known risk, has he? Oh, he forgets stuff. And he makes mistakes due to incomplete information, like not knowing about the wand cores or Lily's ancient magic. But I can't think of an instance where Voldemort knew about a major risk and just dismissed it out of hand." "OK, OK," Judy allowed, "how about Snape may have a potion that increases persuasiveness?" Cindy rose partway from her seat, reaching for the crisp yellow flag on the top of the pile. She froze as a powerful voice boomed out from the crowd: "I have a theory of my own." "Who said that?" Cindy asked, scanning the faces in the crowd. "Where are you?" The bystanders, alarmed, glanced around suspiciously, trying to pick out the speaker among them. "I'm right here. No, no, over *here.* It's me, TheresNothingToIt." "You're . . . a *disembodied voice?*" Cindy said. "OK, now you people are really starting to freak me out." "I submit," the voice continued, "that Snape uses the Timeturner and nips back a couple of hours to visit the DE family reunion in the graveyard. That is why he starts when Harry begins to name the Death Eaters; if Snape is mentioned as not attending then there can be no hope of a little time turning." "That's not bad," Cindy said. "But we have a couple of issues. Snape's failure to twig to the fact that Hermione may have had a Timeturner in PoA suggests that Snape doesn't have one or even know much about them. Also, there's the problem that readers around the globe would toss their books into the fireplace if JKR tried to dust off the time travel gimmick again. And if Snape did travel back in time, why didn't he do something *useful* like stop Cedric and Harry from touching the Cup? Or go to the graveyard and save Cedric's life? Oh, you want no part of Timeturner theorizing, my friend. Trust me, that Timeturner is a random FLINT generator if I ever saw one." Acire charged forward out of the crowd, and her words tumbled forth in a rush. "I'm new here, but I just have to say something. This idea that Dumbledore orders Karkaroff's murder is way off. Dumbledore is not the type of person to have other people do his dirty work." "Yeah, that's true," said Wendy. "I just don't see Dumbledore sending Snape off to murder someone, even someone like Karkaroff. Not pre-meditated murder, even for the common good." "Oh, is *that* the problem?" Cindy replied easily. "I expected people to start fighting over paddles emblazoned with their favorite Assassin!Snape variant. But no. All I'm hearing are objections. `Snape wouldn't do such a thing ? he was a *nice* DE.' 'Dumbledore wouldn't do such a thing ? he's such a *nice* headmaster.' What is it going to take to talk you all into this?" "You know what you have to do." George said quietly. "Go on. Show us the canon, Cindy." He pulled the box of yellow flags toward himself and passed one to each theorist, some of whom wadded them into tight balls so their aim would be true. Cindy gulped audibly and began flipping through her tattered copy of GoF. She waited a full minute before looking up and beginning to speak. "For a long time, I bought this whole Grandfatherly Dumbledore routine that Albus likes to do. You know, the beard, the twinkle, the eccentricities. But the fact is that Dumbledore *will* use others to accomplish his ends ?- even if it creates risk for them. And as we shall see, certain events in GoF all but sealed Karkaroff's fate at the hand of Snape and Dumbledore. "First of all, we already know that Dumbledore will have others do his dirty work. Oh, he has no problem with that idea at all. Dumbledore sent a wand-less Hagrid to recover Harry from Godric's Hollow, even though the place could have been swarming with murderous DEs. Dumbledore sent Hagrid to the Giants, and I think we all know how that little mission is going to turn out. Dumbledore let the trio face barriers like Devil's Snare and a vicious Three- Headed dog to safeguard the Stone. But the clearest example of all is how Dumbledore told Hermione and Harry to use the Timeturner rather than use it to do the deed himself. "Were these things risky? Yes, although some were more risky than others. But we know for an absolute fact that Hermione and Harry were at risk when they used the Timeturner -- had they blown it, they might have attacked themselves. Now, none of those things is anywhere close to ordering the assassination of Karkaroff. But I certainly detect a pattern -? Dumbledore will ask others to do dangerous and unsavory things when circumstances require it." "Nope," George interrupted. "I'm not buying it. You still haven't given any canon for why Dumbledore would target Karkaroff. For all we know, Dumbledore might feel quite charitably toward Karkaroff. International wizarding relations and all." "Oh, I have a *monster* canon for that," Cindy shot back. "Take a look at GoF 'The Madness of Mr. Crouch.'" ******* "I smell double-dealing and corruption in this whole affair, and you, Dumbledore, you, with your talk of closer international wizarding links, of rebuilding old ties, of forgetting old differences ?- here's what I think of *you*! Karkaroff spat onto the ground at Dumbledore's feet. ******* "Yup, it was the spit, Cindy said. "You hawk one at a man's feet, and he is not inclined to be charitable with you. From that point forward, he's not going to go out of his way to find a way to spare you. I say Karkaroff made himself expendable when he let loose with that loogie. "Now don't get me wrong. Dumbledore wouldn't allow Karkaroff to be killed out of revenge over a bit of phlegm. That *would* be out of character. Hagrid's retaliation against Karkaroff happens for a reason, though: JKR wants to make crystal clear that what Karkaroff did was *awful* -- even by wizarding world standards. Karkaroff's little error in judgment there made Dumbledore see that Karkaroff would *never* be on Dumbledore's team. "And that makes a big difference. Look at it this way. If Snape approaches Voldemort and does his very best song and dance to deny being Dumbledore's spy, it might work. It also might *not* work. And if it doesn't work, then Snape isn't getting out of Voldemort's lair alive, is he? So is there anyone in this room who is 100% sure that if Snape showed up, Voldemort would definitely let him live?" No one stirred or met Cindy's gaze. "Didn't think so. Dumbledore's not completely sure, either. If there's one thing you can count on from an Evil Overlord, it's unpredictability. So when Dumbledore authorized Snape to kill Karkaroff to save Snape's hide, Dumbledore is doing the right thing. Karkaroff is a dead man anyway. At least this way, Karkaroff's death will accomplish two positive things ?- the infiltration of Voldemort's inner circle and the survival of Severus Snape. Forced to choose between Snape's life or Karkaroff's, Dumbledore will pick Snape every time." There was a stony silence as the theorists contemplated these harsh words. That was when the high-pitched click of Faith's stiletto heels on the hardwood floor could first be heard. All eyes were upon her as she tottered forward to confront Cindy. "You're going to need more than a little spitball to convince me of Assassin!Snape, Cindy. You've never established that Dumbledore and Snape ever had any kind of conversation about Karkaroff, let alone a conversation about killing him." The heads of the bystanders whipped back around to stare expectantly at Cindy. Some of them grimaced and prepared to launch their flags, hoping to *nail* her with a severe canon violation. "Oh, but Faith, I have canon," Cindy replied quietly, trying not to flinch at the dozens of weighted yellow flags in the cocked arms of the bystanders. "Canon you'll like very much, I think. Check out GoF 'The Pensieve;'" ********* Harry saw his own face change smoothly into Snape's, who opened his mouth and spoke to the ceiling, his voice echoing slightly. "It's coming back . . . Karkaroff's too . . stronger and clearer than ever . . . " "A connection I could have made without assistance," Dumbledore sighed, "but never mind." ********* "Why, what do you make of *that!*" Cindy cried, jabbing her index finger at Faith. "Dumbledore and Snape *did* have a conversation about Karkaroff, didn't they? A conversation important enough to make it into the Pensieve. A conversation that also involved the Dark Mark. Now, if the only thing they talked about in that conversation was Voldemort's imminent return, there was no reason at all to bring Karkaroff into it, was there? If the Dark Mark was getting stronger on Snape's arm, then that tells Dumbledore all he needs to know -? Voldemort is returning. No, I think they talked about Karkaroff for a reason, all right. That meeting is when they first discussed Karkaroff's future -? or more accurately, his lack of one. "Not only that, what is up with Dumbledore's statement that he could have made the connection without assistance? What connection could he possibly be talking about there? That dialogue is highly suspicious, don't you think? Surely Dumbledore doesn't mean he could have connected Snape's Dark Mark with Voldemort's return if Snape kept quiet about the Mark getting stronger. No, Dumbledore means that he could have made the connection between Snape and Karkaroff all by himself. And that connection is that Dumbledore is willing to sacrifice Karkaroff to save Snape." A grim cloud of silence hung in the air once more, even as the first shimmer of daylight pierced the grimy windows. After a moment's hesitation, George picked up the box that once held the yellow flags and passed it among the bystanders, who each slowly laid their flag in the box without speaking. Most of them wore expressions of unease, their brows knitted as they considered what to make of these latest canons. When the flags were collected, Cindy abruptly rose from the table and made her way to the door. "Wait!" Amanda cried, catching her by the arm. "Where are you going? What about PlanB!Snape? You can't leave now!" "Oh, don't worry," Cindy said, smiling vaguely. "I'm going out for a bit of fresh air. I'm taking your advice Amanda. "This time, I'm spreading out my Bangs." *********** Cindy *********** Hypothetic Alley: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hypotheticalley.html Inish Alley: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 From abigailnus at yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 17:55:57 2002 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:55:57 -0000 Subject: MAGIC DISHWASHER explanation (was: Re: Assassin!Snape's Next Victim) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46907 Wendy wrote (greatly truncated): > > (I suppose that MAGIC DISHWASHER Dumbledore might not have a problem > > with this? But I don't subscribe to that theory in any case). and then Grey Wolf replied: > > Why does MAGIC DISHWASHER has such a bad image, then, to the point of > having Wendy say that she doesn't subscribe to the theory *in any > case,* even though she doesn't understand it? It's as if it was *wrong* > to believe in MAGIC DISHWASHER, and Wendy makes it look it so: no > matter what MAGIC DISHWASHER defends, she will not be part of it. (Yes, > I'm hurt by that comment. I hope it shows). I don't think that's quite what Wendy meant. She was voicing an objection to Assassin!Snape on the grounds that Dumbledore wouldn't approve of Karkarof's assassination - and then she wondered whether Dishwasher!Dumbledore would approve of it (frankly, I think he would). Wendy then states that she doesn't subscribe to MD, so the fact that MD might strenghen Assassin!Snape - and I'm a bit surprised to see that no one from the Safe House has showed up at the TBAY tavern to back Cindy up - doesn't affect her opinion. > > I suspect that the problem probably comes from one of the last attacks > on the theory: that Dumbledore was evil because he had helped to > resurrect Voldemort. This is partialy true: Dumbledore needs Voldemort > to be mortal so it can be destroyed (or redeemed, or whatever), and has > guided Voldemort into using a potion that is flawed. This method has > caused accidental deaths, and this is what the attack used to say that > Dumbledore is respoinsible for Voldemort's actions. The fact that, left > to his own devices, Voldemort would've killed many more people has been > ignored by the oposition (IIRC, the last time that point was debated, I > proposed a simple moral problem: if you are faced with a building in > flames, and you can only save a room with eight people, or one with > two, what would you do? I was told that, no matter what you chose, > you'd be evil. I certainly don't agree with that reasoning). I don't believe that a person making this choice is evil, but I do believe that it's an evil choice. Choosing one person's life over another because of maths is a terrible thing - but in life sometimes you have to do terrible things. There's a beautiful passage in Terry Pratchett's book Carpe Jugulum that I think illustrates this. Granny Weatherwax, the witch and midwife, has been called to the bedside of a woman in a difficult labor, and has to choose whether to save the mother or the baby. It becomes clear throughout the book that she believes she is no longer a good person because she dared to make that choice, but that she also recognizes that the choice had to be made, and she was the only person strong enough to make it. (Unfortunately I don't have my copy of CJ in front of me - Pratchett explains things so much better than I ever could.) However, I think I have a firm grasp of MAGIC DISHWASHER (I've read almost all of the discussions since the theory's inception) and I don't think your burning building analogy holds. Dumbledore isn't like a man passing by a burning building who can only save some of the people inside it - this implies that the building was already on fire when he got there. A more apt comparison would be, in my opinion, a man walking down the street who sees a building and says "This building is a death trap - the electrical system is about to go, there's no lightning rod, the fire escape is out of order. When it catches fire - and it surely will, sooner or later - everybody inside will be killed. But here, I've got a hose, and a shovel, and I'm the only fireman in this town. What if I'm out of town, or dead, when this building catches fire? Better I should just set it alight now and rescue everyone. Sure, I can't save everybody in the building - I'm just one man with limited resources, after all - but it's certainly better than leaving them all to die in the next fire, right?" Now, MD objectors are willing to accept that the man can't just evacuate the building before setting it on fire - there will certainly be people killed by Voldemort, after all. What we are pointing out, however, is that the people who are currently living in the building may not be in it when it catches fire on its own - it's not a question of whether they will die now or later but of whether they will die at all. We're also wondering why the fireman couldn't wait a bit longer, get a few more guys on his team, train them properly, maybe get a truck and a ladder for those hard-to-reach floors. In other words, we're not saying that the fireman is evil, just that his leaps of logic don't make that much sense to us. Personally, my problem with MD stems from a more basic source - the fact that MD proponents claim that it is canon-proof. The rest of us are out there on the bay, daring the approaching storm, not a lifeboat among us, and where are the MD people? In the Safe House! Snug in their warm beds and secure in the knowledge that no storm could ever trouble them. I just don't think that's playing fair. Abigail From jodel at aol.com Thu Nov 21 18:04:41 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:04:41 EST Subject: Muggle-borns (was: Sorting Muggle-borns) Message-ID: <131.17583bf5.2b0e7a39@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46908 Melody states; >>So, since Hermione is the only muggle-born in those shared classes,<< *cough* Dean Thomas. *cough* (After all he never heard of Quidditch and was rabbiting on about the West Ham soccer team for his first year. Doesn't sound like a wizarding kid to me...) Agree that it is only about half of fanon that is determined to claim Lavendar Brown is Muggle-born. But there is strong circumstansial evidence for Thomas. -JOdel From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 21 18:20:36 2002 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Megalynn S.) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:20:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The teaser words on JKR's note Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46909 Actually, this is a copyright issue - the owner of a letter or notecard owns the notecard or letter, and can do anything with it, but cannot make copies of it - this is one of the questions we have in to Sotheby's and one of the reasons we're waiting to start the collection. Heidi ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Actually that's wrong. If you buy copyrighted material then you are allowed to make one personal copy for yourself. However if you own the copyright to it (which buying this card would also mean buying the copyright) means you can do whatever you want with it. Youc an sell copies or give them out. Well that's unless British law is entirely different than American. But, going by your rule JKR would not be able to make copies of her own books. Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Nov 21 18:27:55 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:27:55 -0000 Subject: Serpents and Parseltongue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46910 Judy wrote: > But, Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them repeatedly connects > snakes with Dark Wizards. I think JKR *is* setting up some animals > to be strongly good (phoenixes) while others are strongly evil > (snakes.) This helps to establish the intrinsic goodness of > Dumbledore (and perhaps Gryffindor house) while showing the intrinsic > evil of Voldemort and Slytherin (both the wizard and the House.) It > may not be fair to paint snakes as evil, but it is strongly implied > in the books. > > AnimalLover!Judy ...so far, that is. If JKR is intending to desmythify the idea that snakes are eveil, she has to start by *creating* such myth in the WW. I found very telling that Harry's first use of magic power (at least, the first one he does in the story, as oposed to in his life) is used to free a sympathetic, educated and overall *nice* snake. In a zoo, there are hundreds of different animals. JKR could've selected a cocrodile, or a lion, but she chooses a snake that isn't evil at all. In fact, it is more on the "good" side, since she displays humour and not vengence. I see that as very telling. FB is a book that Harry is suposed to have studied, and thus must reflect the WW's views on snakes. But, the way I see it, it is nothing but ground work for a plot point. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Nov 21 18:37:42 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:37:42 -0000 Subject: Colin's camera In-Reply-To: <3DDCD73D.F07EAB45@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46911 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jazmyn wrote: > > Why do people assume that Colin's camera was a muggle one? He might > have gotten it in Diagon Alley and opening the back of it might be > the normal way to retrieve the pictures as it might not even use > 'film' in the same way as a muggle camera and might have had > something that converted into those moving photos... > > Jazmyn People assume that Colin's camera is a muggle one because that's what canon says, Jazmin. Canon point: "He [Colin Creevy] had in his hands what looked like a normal muggle camara" (CoS, ch. 6, Sp. Ed., liberally translated). Further on, Colin also tells Harry that to get moving photos, you just need an extra reveling liquid (after the three normal ones for red, green and blue). If you're thinking that it might just *look* like a muggle camera, it is not the case. From GoF we know that wizard cameras are old fashioned-looking. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Thu Nov 21 18:40:02 2002 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (kaarlo moran) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:40:02 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Colin's camera, Myrtle's glasses In-Reply-To: <3DDCD73D.F07EAB45@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46912 > > Why do people assume that Colin's camera was a muggle one? He might > have gotten it in Diagon Alley and opening the back of it might be the > normal way to retrieve the pictures as it might not even use 'film' in > the same way as a muggle camera and might have had something that > converted into those moving photos... > > Jazmyn > I guess we cam assume this since Colin Himself mentioned that he had to develop the negatives in a potion in order for them to move: (From Chapter 6, COS, U.S. Version) "So I can prove I've met you," said Colin Creevey eagerly, edging further forward. "I know all about you. Everyone's told me. About how you survived when You-Know-Who tried to kill you and how he disappeared and everything and how you've still got a lightning scar on your forehead" (his eyes raked Harry's hairline) "and a boy in my dormitory said if I develop the film in the right potion, the pictures'll move." So, from that statement, I'd say it was an ordinary Muggle camera, and it's the post-development process that changes the picture... -Padawanmage From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 21 18:44:31 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:44:31 -0000 Subject: Muggle-borns (was: Sorting Muggle-borns) In-Reply-To: <131.17583bf5.2b0e7a39@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46913 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jodel at a... wrote: > Melody states; > > >>So, since Hermione is the only muggle-born in those shared classes,<< > Jodel replied: > *cough* Dean Thomas. *cough* > > (After all he never heard of Quidditch and was rabbiting on about > the West Ham soccer team for his first year. Doesn't sound like a > wizarding kid to me...) And Pip replies: *cough* Canon contradiction *cough* CoS Ch. 14, p.187 [UK paperback]: 'Dean Thomas, who, like Harry, had grown up with Muggles...' Dean is described as being like *Harry* - a wizard by blood who has been brought up by Muggles, rather than like *Hermione*, a Muggle born. Whether Dean is a Half-blood being brought up by Muggle relatives, or a Full-blood who got adopted by Muggles remains to be seen. But he's almost certainly *not* muggle born. JKR keeps putting a strong emphasis on children resembling their fathers (Draco, Harry, Krum, Crabbe, Goyle, all the Weasley's) so that there is no doubt that currently all characters with known parents have exactly the father they are supposed to have. To my suspicious mind, this suggests that there is later going to be a plot point that someone's father is *not* who he's supposed to be. Or someone [Dean?] doesn't know who their father is, and doesn't look like him at all. [grin] Pip!Squeak From wynnde1 at aol.com Thu Nov 21 17:00:12 2002 From: wynnde1 at aol.com (wynnde1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:00:12 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Morality and Efficiency (Was killerbeasts, etc) Message-ID: <177.124027f6.2b0e6b1c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46914 Regarding morality and efficiency: > Grey Wolf wrote: > > >> Dumbledore needs Voldemort to be mortal so it can be > destroyed (or redeemed, or whatever), and has guided > Voldemort into using a potion that is flawed. This method has > caused accidental deaths, and this is what the attack used to > say that Dumbledore is respoinsible for Voldemort's actions. > The fact that, left to his own devices, Voldemort would've killed > many more people has been ignored by the oposition (IIRC, the > last time that point was debated, I proposed a simple moral > problem: if you are faced with a building in flames, and you can > only save a room with eight people, or one with two, what would > you do?<< > And Pippin countered: > Eh? That is not a moral problem, Grey Wolf, it is a logistical one. > If I were Dumbledore, I would use a simple flame-freezing charm > and save them all. Since I'm not, I would of course save the eight > people, but that is not the most virtuous solution, it is only the > most efficient one. > Now me: Ah, but things are hardly ever this simple, are they? Eight vs. Two seems fairly straightforward . . . *but* . . . if my son is one of the people in the room of two, one guess which set of folks I'm going to try and save. ;-) So maybe it's a bit of a moral question after all? Am I just selfish for valuing the life of my own son over the lives of whomever might have been in that other room. Which does make me wonder if there are some lives which Dumbledore considers *more* expendable than others. Well, most probably there are. But I wonder just what his criteria for that would be. Then Pippin added: > One might consider efficiency a virtue in itself. Vernon Dursley > surely does, but Dumbledore? I can't think of any time when > Dumbledore did something or recommended a course of action > because it would be efficient. Can you? > Me again: I certainly agree with Pippin here. In fact, we've seen Dumbledore do things which were seemingly the OPPOSITE of efficient - all the shenanigans regarding the protection on the Philospher's Stone, for example. Oh, perhaps this was the most efficient way to make sure Harry wandered around the castle enough to find all the clues to get down there and face Quirrelmort, thereby learning and growing in the process. But on the surface, as far as the stone goes, highly inefficient. And, while I must admit to being mostly ignorant about MAGIC DISHWASHER (not have yet had a chance to read the new megapost), from what I know of it, it doesn't seem particularly efficient, either. :-) Wendy (Who is nearly certain she saw JKR shopping a couple of weeks ago in a department store in Edinburgh. I didn't actually go up to her and ASK her if it was her, which is why I'm only *nearly* certain. And fortunately (for JKR) I was able to resist my impulse to berate her for buying blouses when she should have been at home WRITING! Still, I think it's pretty cool to think that she and I shop at the same store! ) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wynnde1 at aol.com Thu Nov 21 17:08:29 2002 From: wynnde1 at aol.com (wynnde1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:08:29 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Colin's camera, Myrtle's glasses Message-ID: <1a9.c58c405.2b0e6d0d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46915 In a message dated 21/11/2002 16:48:30 GMT Standard Time, jazmyn at pacificpuma.com writes: > Why do people assume that Colin's camera was a muggle one? He might > have gotten it in Diagon Alley and opening the back of it might be the > normal way to retrieve the pictures as it might not even use 'film' in > the same way as a muggle camera and might have had something that > converted into those moving photos... > > Jazmyn > Well, the canon doesn't say with complete certainty, but here it is, from Chapter 6 of CoS (Harry describes Colin) . . ."He was clutching what looked like an ordinary Muggle camera . . . " A few paragraphs later, Colin says, "a boy in my dormitory said if I develop the film in the right potion, the pictures will *move*." We also learn that Colin's dad is a milkman, so he's at least half and half (maybe we know he's completely muggle-born from elsewhere in the book. I don't remember off the top of my head). So, I'd say it's a fair guess that it is a regular Muggle camera. :-) Wendy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ashfae at technicaldetails.org Thu Nov 21 18:23:50 2002 From: ashfae at technicaldetails.org (Ashfae) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:23:50 -0700 (MST) Subject: Winky's dismissal and wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46916 > Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:50:21 -0000 > From: Grey Wolf > Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Serpents and Parseltongue > (...) > You have raised the issue that Hogwarts is wrong at using elves, and > that Percy is likewise wrong at expecting total obedience. Let's tackle > them. Percy was right at expecting such thing since elves take pride in > being faithful to their masters. The problem with Winky is that she was > sacrified in the altar of politics (i.e. she had been obedient but her > master was going to acuse her of his own errors). If Percy had the one Actually, that's not what happened. It looked to the world in general that Winky was sacrificed because of politics and had done nothing wrong herself, as Hermione so emphatically pointed out; but we didn't know the whole story at that point. She *did* fail in her duties. She abandoned Barty Jr.'s side at a crucial moment, which allowed him to escape and send up the Dark Mark. I feel sorry for Winky, but she had made a serious error of judgement, and it can be argued that Crouch Senior was perfectly right to sack her. He had trusted her to look after his son, and she failed. As an additional point on the argument about non-human creatures and wands, many of them don't seem to need wands; house-elves, for example, have very powerful magic of their own, and don't need wands to implement it. The law disallowing nonhumans to use wands may not be as prejudiced as it first seems in that respect. Ashfae From illyana at mindspring.com Thu Nov 21 18:46:45 2002 From: illyana at mindspring.com (illyana delorean) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:46:45 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Colin's camera In-Reply-To: <3DDCD73D.F07EAB45@pacificpuma.com> References: <20021121080247.59993.qmail@web40312.mail.yahoo.com> <3DDCD73D.F07EAB45@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46917 Jazmyn wrote: >Why do people assume that Colin's camera was a muggle one? He might >have gotten it in Diagon Alley and opening the back of it might be the >normal way to retrieve the pictures as it might not even use 'film' in >the same way as a muggle camera and might have had something that >converted into those moving photos... > Somewhere in COS, Colin makes a comment about being able to develop the film in a special way so the photos would be moving photos. If I remember correctly, he seemed very excited about this (and probably had just found out about this method), so I am assuming his camera is a muggle camera. illyana p.s. I am also assuming that Dumbledore knows nothing about muggle cameras; otherwise, he would not have opened up the back of it so foolishly. -- S1.3 MIL+++ RWG++# FRI++ CBG++ P&S-- f++/+++ n- $++++ 9F13, 1F22, 2F13, 3F02, 3F05, 4F01, 4F08, 4F11, 4F19 F1980 HPGCv1 a22 e+ x+* Rm Ri HP4 S+++ Mo++ HG+/VK++ HaP+/SS+++& FGW++ DM++& VC-- GG-- CD+ VK++ SS+++& PT--- AF-- MM++ RL++ O+m FAo F- Sl FHo SfD "What's the point in having a Honda if you can't show it off?" - Superintendent Chalmers visit my livejournal! http://www.livejournal.com/users/illyanadmc From wind3213 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 21 18:58:32 2002 From: wind3213 at hotmail.com (Shauna) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:58:32 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Assassin!Snape and Karkaroff's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46918 Shauna yawned as she made her way into the backroom, slumping into one of the chairs. The hour was already late, and besides, all the frantic theorizing tired her out. Drowsiness and a little alcohol had soothed her nerves. She might be bold enough to get into a short conversation - if she didn't fall asleep first. Why did everyone have so much energy? She glanced across to where Cindy and Judy Serenity were discussing why Dumbledore would trust snape. > "Oh, *now* I remember," Cindy said. "We talked about Snape > many months ago, when Theory Bay was little more than a >bone dry gulley. We disagreed about why Dumbledore would > have trusted Snape after Snape became a DE. I was saying > that Snape would have to do something Big to get back into > Dumbledore's good graces, and you were saying that >Dumbledore would trust Snape without it." Shauna sighed. Were they going to get into that again? "Why in the world," she murmured to herself, "would killing a bunch of deatheaters make Dumbledore any less suspicious of Snape? Surely the good Headmaster believes Voldemort capable of sacrificing a few of his minions to get Dumbledore to trust his spy. No, the only way for that to work would be if the information Snape passes on to Dumbledore is more valuable *against* Voldemort than having a closely trusted spy in enemy ranks would be *for* Voldemort. That's a high standard to overcome - perhaps the highest. On the other hand..." "On the other hand?" A voice spoke in her ear. Shauna jumped so high she was surprised no one noticed. She looked around, but there wasn't anyone particularly near her. "Hello...?" "Hello. You were saying, on the other hand?" Shauna whispered hesitantly. "Who are you?" "TheresNothingToIt." "Really?" "Yes. There's nothing to it. Please continue." Shauna started to ask another question, then decided just to continue theorizing. She had learned one had generally better listen to disembodied voices - they might not be able to take you outside and give you a beat down, but they could follow you home singing "The Song That Never Ends". "I was saying that on the other hand, Dumbledore might be able to trust him for different reasons. Personal reasons. He was Snape's headmaster for seven years, there might be a somewhat of a trusting relationship. I can't offer anything particular, but it might be there." There was a silence. "'lo? You there?" "Yes," came the voice. "I was nodding my head thoughtfully." "You don't *have* a head." The disembodied voice made a 'harrumph' sound. "No need to get snappy about it." "I'm sorry... really. You there?" But the voice was gone. Shauna leaned back in her seat, preparing to take another nap, sure that she would be lulled to sleep by counting the flying flags. A few moments later, though, her 'friend' boomed out to everybody. > "I submit that Snape uses the Timeturner and nips back a >couple of hours to visit the DE family reunion in the > graveyard. That is why he starts when Harry begins to name > the Death Eaters; if Snape is mentioned as not attending then >there can be no hope of a little time turning." This time it was Shauna who nodded her head thoughtfully. It was a good theory, even if the use of the Timeturner was a little cheap. She watched with interest as the conversation continued. > "That's not bad," Cindy said. "But we have a couple of issues. > Snape's failure to twig to the fact that Hermione may have had >a Timeturner in PoA suggests that Snape doesn't have one or >even know much about them." Shauna rolled her eyes. Like there wasn't an entire summer where Dumbledore could have told Snape? Dumbledore certainly spent some of that time filling him in on other details. By the time the scene rolls around, Dumbledore's told him of Sirius' innocence - why not explain the Timeturner then? > Also, there's the problem that readers around the > globe would toss their books into the fireplace if JKR tried to >dust off the time travel gimmick again. Maybe, maybe not. After all, she used the Anamagi gimmick twice, too - in PoA with the Marauders and in GoF with Rita Skeeter. Shauna was about to screw up her courage and point this out, but Cindy was still barging along. >And if Snape did travel back in time, why didn't he do >something *useful* like stop Cedric and Harry > from touching the Cup? Or go to the graveyard and save >Cedric's life? Woah! Shauna burst out, "Wait a second! Are you forgetting the entire point of Timeturners? They can't change things that have already happened! At least three people saw Cedric die (and Cedric might have noticed, too!), and an entire stadium of people saw him and Harry touch the cup! How would he get away with it?" Her voice was drowned out, though, by Acire. She had rushed in and started going on about Karkaroff. Shauna sat back down in her seat in disapointment. When a yellow flag was passed to her, she scrunched it up and used it as a pillow. Theorizing was nice, but sleepy work. Besides, she wasn't sure how to start up a conversation with anyone - anyone embodied, anyway. She drifted off, hoping that Cindy's bangs wouldn't wake her up. From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Nov 21 19:20:41 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:20:41 -0000 Subject: The Basilisk *Does* Target Its Victims (IMO) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021121000313.02fe67a8@pop.ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46919 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., S wrote: > bugaloo37 said: > > >IMO, there is no way that muggle-born Myrtle was in Slytherin. Given > >what we know concerning Salazar Slytherin's opinions in regards > >to "mudbloods", why would the Sorting Hat place a muggle-born in > >Slytherin? > Say said: > Voldemort was a mudblood, too - his father was a muggle. If he got into > Slytherin, it makes sense that other muggle-born pupils could, as well. > Now me: Here are some definitions, IMO, of the following terms: Pure-blood: examples-the Weasleys, the Malfoys-these are Wizard families with NO muggle blood in their family tree. Half-blood: examples-Harry Potter, Tom Riddle- witches/wizards who have ONE muggle (Tom's father) OR muggle-born parent (Lily Potter). Muggle-Born (aka mudblood): examples Hermione Granger, Lily Potter- Witches/Wizards who have NO magical heritage. IMO, by this definition, Tom Riddle could not be classified as a mudblood/muggle-born wizard. bugaloo37 From indigo at indigosky.net Thu Nov 21 19:27:24 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:27:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Colin's camera, Myrtle's glasses In-Reply-To: <3DDCD73D.F07EAB45@pacificpuma.com> References: <20021121080247.59993.qmail@web40312.mail.yahoo.com> <3DDCD73D.F07EAB45@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <200211211427240158.155478DD@mail.indigosky.net> No: HPFGUIDX 46920 On 11/21/2002 at 6:53 AM jazmyn wrote: >Why do people assume that Colin's camera was a muggle one? He might >have gotten it in Diagon Alley and opening the back of it might be the >normal way to retrieve the pictures as it might not even use 'film' in >the same way as a muggle camera and might have had something that >converted into those moving photos... > >Jazmyn > > Good question. It never occurred to me that it was a muggle camera -- but that aside, opening the back *is* a normal way to get film out of a camera if it's not an automatic. I'm pretty sure it does use film the same way as a muggle camera. It's the magic film and the magic camera that make the photos move, though. Unless you use a muggle camera with muggle film and the potions you use to *develop* the film make the moving photos, but to me that makes less sense, because a magic camera with magic film would record several images in order for the images on the photograph to be moving. Then again, I could just be thinking too much. Dumbledore doesn't hang around in his own Chocolate Frog trading card photograph, and in the books, people from the Hogwarts Paintings go to visit one another -- so anything is possible and there doesn't necessarily have to be a rational explanation for it. Hee. Indigo From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Nov 21 19:42:42 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:42:42 -0000 Subject: MAGIC DISHWASHER explanation (was: Re: Assassin!Snape's Next Victim) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46921 I said: >>IIRC, the last time that point was debated, I >> proposed a simple moral problem: if you are faced with a building in >> flames, and you can only save a room with eight people, or one with >> two, what would you do? I was told that, no matter what you chose, >> you'd be evil. I certainly don't agree with that reasoning. Abigail wrote: > I don't believe that a person making this choice is evil, but I do > believe that it's an evil choice. Choosing one person's life over > another because of maths is a terrible thing - but in life sometimes > you have to do terrible things. I quite like your fireman prolem (more on that later), but let me rephrase that question. Same situation, two rooms with people, and you can only save the people in one of them. To reduce the math component, let's say that there are exaclty the same number of people in both. What would you choose? The point I was trying to make is that choosing one group over the other might not be the perfect solution, but it is better than just sit down, hope for the best and not do anything about it. As I said, I love your analogy. Quite a good one. I think I'll use it in the future, in fact. Your conclusion and mine are different, though. Dumbledore isn't getting any younger. The only thing that has kept Voldemort in check (or as much as it could) was Dumbledore's power. We know almost for certain that Voldemort would've acted much more openly and won more battles if he hadn't been mortally afraid of Dumbledore. Dumbledore himself is not sure he could defeat Voldemort (due to that business of Voldemort using magics he wouldn't dare to use), but Voldemort is ready to believe that, cornered, Dumbledor would indeed use them and defeat him (and I can't blame Voldemort for thinking that - as someone has remarked, Dumbledore *did* beat Grindelwald in some unspecified but definitive way). What is the situation, then? Our fireman is about to retire. And there is no replace in sight. Thus, the house must be burned down with as many security measures possible now, or risk a uncontroled fire later. Stepping down from the analogy (paraboles are nice, but they *can* be taken too far), Dumbledore has shown increasing strain as the books progress. Many in the list believe that he'll die, sooner or later. Many of them belive that his death will be natural, of old age (he does seem to be aging very fast all of a sudden). And, without him, the WW doesn't stand a chance - as it is, with him the chances are slim indeed. Thus, "the time is upon us. We must act now" (I think that's from LotR). And it is not only Dumbledore - the old gang isn't getting any younger. What of Harry, you ask? At least, it's the favourite question of someone I know well in the list. Well, Harry could very well be the "replace fireman", which is being nurtured to keep in check Voldemort ("If we can refuse him again and again, he might never regain his powers"), but it doesn't look that way at all. Harry is being trained to face Voldemort and destroy him. He was given a chance in PS, when he faces Voldemort - maybe in hope that Harry could destroy him in his vapour form. And there is surely more things in stock for him, as Dumbledore's plans advance (not to mention Voldemort's own plans for the brat). But, unfortunately, Harry cannot do it all on his won. So, and going back to the fireman when you recomended waiting for help and a longer staircase, I have the feeling that it is this moment when Dumbledore's forces is strongest compared to Voldemort's: Voldemort has just come back, and his allies are not all with him yet. There is possibility of dissension. And Dumbledore's forces are the mix of three generations... for a while more, at least: the old gang, Sirius and school friends, and finally Harry et co. Dumbledore is indeed playing a dangerous game, but he knows more about the situation than we do and if he is indeed planing to win Voldemort (instead of just playing the waiting game some oposers of MD seem to sugest), this might very well be the perfect moment for the strike. > Personally, my problem with MD stems from a more basic source - the > fact that MD proponents claim that it is canon-proof. The rest of > us are out there on the bay, daring the approaching storm, not a > lifeboat among us, and where are the MD people? In the Safe House! > Snug in their warm beds and secure in the knowledge that no storm > could ever trouble them. I just don't think that's playing fair. > > Abigail Playing fair? By believing in our own theories? Excuse me for saying this, but refusing an argument because someone likes it has very little of logic and very much of spite behind it. Besides, you're very wrong in your asumptions. I've spoken with the other two components of MD recently, and none of us believe that MD will survive huricane Jo without a scratch. That is *the* main reason for doing a unifying post: that way, when the time comes to reformulate the theory (or scrap it completely and start from scratch), we will at least have everything toghether in a single place. You did, in fact, use the correct words: I am completely convinced that the Safe House will survive hurricane Jo without problems and we'll be able sleep through it safely in our beds. But the fact is that MAGIC DISHWASHER and the Safe House are *not* the same thing *at all*. Safe House only says that both sides use spies. that's *canon*, as canonical as you can get here. Not even LOLLIPOPS has a canon basis as strong as that. The safe house is exactly that: a place where you can house spy theories. If you want to say that Dumbledore spies only on the MoM and not on Voldemort, and that it's all a big yankee conspiracy, MD will fight you all the way, but you'll be given a room in the safe house nonetheless. Again, I hope you don't take this the wrong way (I don't want to insult you), but you don't seem to know MD and Safe House as well as you claim. On that same line of thought (canonity of Safe House), read Pippin's attack to the safe house in #45498 and Pip's answer in #45528. We've been thorugh this before and, as I've said before, I repeat myself enough as it is. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who realices he comes out a little harsh in this post, but wants to assure Abigail that it is not intentional... simply, he's at a loss for less strong words (it's been a tiring day, and his brain is stressed) From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Nov 21 19:51:49 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:51:49 -0000 Subject: Winky's dismissal and wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46922 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Ashfae wrote: I said: >> You have raised the issue that Hogwarts is wrong at using elves, and >> that Percy is likewise wrong at expecting total obedience. Let's >> tackle them. Percy was right at expecting such thing since elves >> take pride in being faithful to their masters. The problem with >> Winky is that she was sacrified in the altar of politics (i.e. she >> had been obedient but her master was going to acuse her of his own >> errors). If Percy had the one > > Actually, that's not what happened. It looked to the world in > general that Winky was sacrificed because of politics and had done > nothing wrong herself, as Hermione so emphatically pointed out; but > we didn't know the whole story at that point. She *did* fail in her > duties. She abandoned Barty Jr.'s side at a crucial moment, which > allowed him to escape and send up the Dark Mark. I feel sorry for > Winky, but she had made a serious error of judgement, and it can be > argued that Crouch Senior was perfectly right to sack her. He had > trusted her to look after his son, and she failed. Interesting point of view, I hadn't considered it that way. I had simply looked beyond that point to what lies beyond: Winky did not, in fact, leave Jr.'s side: she followed him and *tried* to stop him, but she couldn't. I said it was Sr.'s fault because it's his spell that goes awry: what was suposed to keep Jr in line wasn't Winky, but the Imperius. It was because the Imperius failed that everything happened, and Sr, instead of realizing it was his own fault, decided to sacrifice Winky. > As an additional point on the argument about non-human creatures > and wands, many of them don't seem to need wands; house-elves, for > example, have very powerful magic of their own, and don't need wands > to implement it. The law disallowing nonhumans to use wands may not > be as prejudiced as it first seems in that respect. > > > Ashfae Ehhh... I thought had pointed that in my own post (that elves don't need wand since their wandless magic seems extremely powerful as it is), so I hope that wasn't intended as an attack on my views. At any rate, it's nice to know someone agrees with me on that issue. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Nov 21 20:19:04 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 20:19:04 -0000 Subject: It's All Winky's Fault (And Mrs. Crouch's of course)(WAS: Re: Winky's dismissal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46923 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Ashfae wrote: > > > > Actually, that's not what happened. It looked to the world in > > general that Winky was sacrificed because of politics and had done > > nothing wrong herself, as Hermione so emphatically pointed out; but > > we didn't know the whole story at that point. She *did* fail in her > > duties. She abandoned Barty Jr.'s side at a crucial moment, which > > allowed him to escape and send up the Dark Mark. I feel sorry for > > Winky, but she had made a serious error of judgement, and it can be > > argued that Crouch Senior was perfectly right to sack her. He had > > trusted her to look after his son, and she failed. > > Interesting point of view, I hadn't considered it that way. I had > simply looked beyond that point to what lies beyond: Winky did not, in > fact, leave Jr.'s side: she followed him and *tried* to stop him, but > she couldn't. I said it was Sr.'s fault because it's his spell that > goes awry: what was suposed to keep Jr in line wasn't Winky, but the > Imperius. It was because the Imperius failed that everything happened, > and Sr, instead of realizing it was his own fault, decided to sacrifice > Winky. Arggh... I'd decided not to post anything more about the Crouches till Elkins finishes her encyclopaedic Crouch thing and unveils it to the list. And given that Elkins has been ill, trying to organize and motivate us at the Department of Fantastic Posts, and working furiously on the LupiFAQ, that might be a while from now. But still, I was determined to wait. But now, you two have hit on one of the things I have up my sleeve about the Crouches. Message 45693 - TBAY - Winky and Crouch Sr. - Very Nasty and Twisted Among other things, I wrote "The two: Winky and Mrs. Crouch, pretty much killed him in the end." You see, Ashfae's entirely right. As I wrote in that post, "He didn't let go of Winky b/c she embarassed him. He let go of her b/c she endangered him." But Grey Wolf says, >I said it was Sr.'s fault because it's his spell that goes awry: >what was suposed to keep Jr in line wasn't Winky, but the Imperius. >It was because the Imperius failed that everything happened, and >Sr, instead of realizing it was his own fault, decided to >sacrifice Winky." But, you see, whose stupid idea was it to bring Barty Jr. to the World Quidditch Cup in the first place? Who bullied him into risking everything? Who insisted nothing could go wrong? Who hit him over the head by bringing his dead wife into it? Ashfae wrote >I feel sorry for Winky. Well, so do I. So do I. But I came to the conclusion re-reading GoF that people feel sorry for her for the wrong reasons. They read her as a victim of the whole dysfunctional Crouch family dynamics. But she isn't really. She's part of the problem. As much as either of the Bartemii, as much as Mrs. Crouch. (Check out that message for my take on Winky as Mrs. Crouch's double.) In dismissing Winky, Crouch is finally throwing off the control she had over his life (which is as real as the control he had over hers), and I've argued in the past, throwing off the control his wife had over him as well. After all, the whole "Let him go to the QWC" is just a continuation of, "Let him switch places with me in Azkaban." Winky had failed Crouch. His wife had failed him. As I said before, they both killed him. His wife by persuading him to rescue their son. Winky by being careless enough to let Bertha Jorkins find out about it. So, it was already too late when Crouch dismissed Winky, the damage had all been done and she actually could have helped him in what lay ahead, but I know exactly where he was coming from. Winky isn't tragic because she's innocent. She's tragic, because she's as messed up as any member of that family. Eileen From dorigen at hotmail.com Thu Nov 21 19:40:27 2002 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:40:27 +0000 Subject: Definitions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46924 bugaloo37 wrote: >Here are some definitions, IMO, of the following terms: Pure-blood: >examples-the Weasleys, the Malfoys-these are Wizard families with NO >muggle blood in their family tree. >>>>> Yes, but >Half-blood: examples-Harry >Potter, Tom Riddle- witches/wizards who have ONE muggle (Tom's >father) OR muggle-born parent (Lily Potter). >>>>> I'm not sure this is correct, because Lily's being Muggle-born doesn't seem to make any difference to Harry's social standing even with the Malfoys of this world. His parents were both Wizards; that seems to be that. They may despise his politics, his morals, and his choice in friends, but they don't despise his ancestry, and you know that if there were a chance to do so, Malfoy would have done it. As someone has pointed out, this means that if Hermione (for example) marries Harry and has a child, the child will be a "pure blood," although Hermione will continue to be scorned as a "mudblood." This makes about as much sense as racial prejudice ever does. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From sgarfio at yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 19:44:47 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:44:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The teaser words on JKR's note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021121194447.77308.qmail@web21401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46925 --- "Megalynn S." wrote: > Actually, this is a copyright issue - the owner of a letter or notecard > owns the notecard or letter, and can do anything with it, but cannot > make copies of it - this is one of the questions we have in to Sotheby's > and one of the reasons we're waiting to start the collection. > > Heidi > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Actually that's wrong. If you buy copyrighted material then you are allowed > to make one personal copy for yourself. However if you own the copyright to > it (which buying this card would also mean buying the copyright) means you > can do whatever you want with it. Youc an sell copies or give them out. Well > that's unless British law is entirely different than American. But, going by > your rule JKR would not be able to make copies of her own books. > > Megalynn Erm... I don't think that buying this card is the same as buying the copyright. JKR wrote it, so she retains the copyright. Buying the card is like buying a book - you have the right to read it, loan it out, cite it, etc. but *not* to make photocopies and sell them. Now, from what I understand, if we simply *post* what is on the card, nobody is making any money off of it, and it becomes comparable to loaning out a book you have bought. Furthermore, if we all contribute to its purchase, then it belongs to *all* of us and we all have the right to read it. But to be on the safe side, it would be best to just be up front with it and ask permission. What we're proposing here isn't going to hurt anybody or deprive anybody of any royalties, and permission would most likely be granted, at which point we could stop worrying. Of course, it is possible to *sell* a copyright, so if that is explicitly stated in the terms of sale, then whoever buys it would have the right to sell copies or whatever else they want to do with it. Generally, though, at least in the US, sale of an item does not imply sale of the copyright. -Sherry (who is not sure she even *wants* to know what is on the card, but would, nevertheless, be willing to contribute, since money seems to be flowing freely from her pockets and into JKR's of late anyway ;->) ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From kela_bit at netvision.net.il Thu Nov 21 20:55:29 2002 From: kela_bit at netvision.net.il (Klei) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 22:55:29 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Serpents and Parseltongue References: Message-ID: <3DDD4841.7070208@netvision.net.il> No: HPFGUIDX 46926 Grey Wolf wrote: > > Julie wrote: > > Could there be other good Parselmouths besides Harry? > > There is at least one other: Voldemort, but I don't think that's the > answer you were looking for... I think he meant "good" as in not evil. > ... and at least the mermaids have their own language, ... I think they don't have a language, they just sound odd above water. Katsmall the Wise kela_bit at netvision.net.il From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Nov 21 21:55:47 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:55:47 -0000 Subject: Definitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46927 Janet Anderson wrote: > I'm not sure this is correct, because Lily's being Muggle-born > doesn't seem to make any difference to Harry's social standing even > with the Malfoys of this world. His parents were both Wizards; that > seems to be that. They may despise his politics, his morals, and his > choice in friends, but they don't despise his ancestry, and you know > that if there were a chance to do so, Malfoy would have done it. There is a very important difference: Harry is a half-blood, while Hermione is mud-blood. Since most of the people in the WW are half-bloods (I sugested a few posts back that that meant a muggle within the last seven generations, to give a "typical" number, although it could be anything between 2 and 20, for all we know), not even the pure bloods are so stupid to iniciate a campaign against them. To try and understand the warped logic of this racists, look at as if we were talking about rich people: For a long time, "old money" was considered "better" than new money (although I've never had enough of either to tell the difference - Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms). Those people who had inherited their big fortunes from their parents believed themselves "better" than the "noveau riches" ("the new rich", in case my French is horrible). Their sons where all right, but the originals where considered discusting, and their company was undesirable. The same thing happened in the Middle ages with nobility: Someone who had just been made noble was not very apreciated by his peers, since he came from a lower status and thus they had despised him before. But their sons (if born *after* their parent had been titled) would normally have easier acces to other nobles, especially if they had been educated as nobles themselves. I hope that helps you to understand what's going on. > As someone has pointed out, this means that if Hermione (for example) > marries Harry and has a child, the child will be a "pure blood," > although Hermione will continue to be scorned as a "mudblood." This > makes about as much sense as racial prejudice ever does. > > Janet Anderson Yep, I agree. The idea of "mud-bloods" being inferiors is ridiculous and doesn't make sense. It has been devised by people with large egos that need to find ways to feel superior to their betters or to those they secretly fear. In this case, people with new ideas, instead of the "old traditions" of the "pure bloods". Julie wrote: >>> Could there be other good Parselmouths besides Harry? I wrote: >> There is at least one other: Voldemort, but I don't think that's the >> answer you were looking for... Klei said > I think he meant "good" as in not evil. Oh, sorry for that. I though she meant "good" as in "I'm good at English" i.e. that you know the language well enough to hold a conversation, instead of just knowing "hello" "goodbye" "the note, please" and "where is the bathroom?" > > ... and at least the mermaids have their own language, ... > > I think they don't have a language, they just sound odd above water. > > Katsmall the Wise By that reasoning, Americans don't have a language, they just sound weird to those who don't speak English. I clasify Mermaid as a language because Harry does so: at the end of the second task, Dumbledore speaks to the mermaids, and Harry says that "Dumbledore seemed to know Mermaid". This is tricky, since, like in any language, you need to learn the sounds that make up the words, as well as the meaning of the words themselves. Also, we cannot discount that it is an altoghether separate langauge and that what came out of the egg was only English distortioned so it could only be understood under the water. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From Audra1976 at aol.com Thu Nov 21 22:13:40 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:13:40 EST Subject: Killerbeasts, Random Words, and Patroni Message-ID: <127.1b22b7ed.2b0eb494@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46928 In response to which animals attack for "the pure pleasure of the hunt" foxmoth at qnet.com (Pippin) writes: >>There are at least two: cats...and humans. Hey, I would't disrespect cats by putting them in the same category as humans. hehe. Actually all animals that hunt and attack other animals for food derive "pleasure" from it in the sense that the act stimulates the pleasure center of the brain. That's the way evolution (or God or both) made them. It's sort of a natural "positive reinforcement" that serves the function of perpetuating the species. Humans, unlike other animals, have a sense of empathy. When a cat is batting a mouse around it doesn't have any awareness that it is causing the mouse pain. The action cannnot be considered morally wrong. To add something that actually has to do with Hary Potter: The random words: Has anyone addressed the mention of "house-elf"? We may learn more about house elves and their powers. They seem to be very powerful. Perhaps all the house elves will be freed from the families they serve if they help fight against Voldemort, or maybe they will even stage a rebellion. Eva asked: >>What kind of Patronus would Ron, Hermione and Ginny have? Personally I see Hermione with a Kneazle, Ginny with a Pegasus and Ron I don't know?<< I definitely see Ron having a big chess knight, like the one in PS/SS. For some reason I see Hermione with some sort of bird, and I can't think of a thing for Ginny. I guess I don't know enough about her. Audra From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 22:27:16 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:27:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Definitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021121222716.88290.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46929 Klei (I think) wrote: > > ... and at least the mermaids have their own language, ... > > I think they don't have a language, they just sound odd above water. > > Katsmall the Wise Grey Wolf wrote: By that reasoning, Americans don't have a language, they just sound weird to those who don't speak English. I clasify Mermaid as a language because Harry does so: at the end of the second task, Dumbledore speaks to the mermaids, and Harry says that "Dumbledore seemed to know Mermaid". This is tricky, since, like in any language, you need to learn the sounds that make up the words, as well as the meaning of the words themselves. Also, we cannot discount that it is an altoghether separate langauge and that what came out of the egg was only English distortioned so it could only be understood under the water. Me: I think that since the merpeople are magical, a magical answer is required. I think that it's possible that if you HAVEN'T learned Mermish, you can only understand it while underwater (the water acts like a Babelfish for you, to borrow a term from Douglas Adams). It's a real language, though, and not just distorted English. You're just hearing it as English when you're underwater, the translation medium, just as Harry hears Parseltongue as English because he's a Parselmouth. He didn't even know he'd spoken another language when he was telling the snake not to attack Justin. Mermish can be learned, however, unlike Parseltongue, because obviously, Dumbledore has learned it. If there's a way to understand Parseltongue without being a Parselmouth, JKR hasn't revealed it. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wittchway at yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 21:51:35 2002 From: wittchway at yahoo.com (wittchway) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:51:35 -0000 Subject: Slytherin House Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46930 THis was recently pointed out to me by a friend who had seen the movie but not read the books. And really I couldn't answer. The question was why keep Slytherin house around? Couldn't the school work just as well with three houses? Wouldn't the sorting hat pull other strengths the students had and place them appropriatly? Supposedly the schools been around for a 1000yrs and the four founders had aparting of the way with Slytherin then. Why didn't they just drop him then and his name from the school? Just wondering. Thanks Wittchway From sgarfio at yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 22:01:11 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:01:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Witch Burnings (WAS: Sorting Muggle-borns ( was: The Basilisk)) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021121014607.02ecf248@pop.ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20021121220111.19303.qmail@web21407.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46931 Say said: > Going back a couple of hundred years, muggles happily burned > suspected witches quite legally (has that been mentioned in the books?). Indeed it has. I don't have the exact quote, but I think it's in PoA, first (or possibly second) chapter. Harry has an essay to write over the summer holidays, and the topic is something like "The Salem Witch Burnings Were Completely Pointless - Discuss." I think it goes on to provide a few quotes from the History of Magic text about a witch who enjoyed being burned so much that she repeatedly allowed herself to be caught, and then would assume another identity so that she could get caught again. - Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From timregan at microsoft.com Thu Nov 21 22:52:49 2002 From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 22:52:49 -0000 Subject: Colin's camera In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46932 Hi All, --- "Grey Wolf" wrote: > From GoF we know that wizard cameras are old > fashioned-looking. How do we know that? The quote I can find is (GoF UK Paperback, p. 265) "A paunchy man, holding a large black camera which was smoking slightly, was watching Fleur out of the corner of his eye." When we see him again in the Three Broomsticks (p.390) we aren't told about the camera. Rita's photographer may just use an old camera. Fleur may have been thinking "what old cameras UK journalists use compared to the ones they use in France". We don't know? Cheers, Tim. PS Sorry for the nit picking - it's what I'm reduced to waiting for OotP. I do so hope we can win and publish the card ... From the.gremlin at verizon.net Thu Nov 21 23:01:27 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:01:27 -0000 Subject: Assassin!Snape and Karkaroff's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46933 A few general comments: First, I have been having fun, and I, too, am "dead chuffed" to be deemed important enough to be mentioned in a TBAY. I however, doubt my TBAY abilities and continue to reply in the normal fashio. Next comment: My view of Snape has changed in the past few days. He is STILL my favorite HP character, though. He's just become a lot darker since then. I also don't get the yellow flags thing, but... Okie, here we go: Now, I am of the opinion that Snape DID do horrible things as a DE. I also think that he CHOOSE to become a DE. I have seen fanon examples of Snape being the "Potions Man", or being forced to be a DE. However, as someone kindly pointed out (and I'm too lazy to search), Snape does seem to be fond of mentally torturing his students, and it might clue readers in to the fact that he may have been fond of physical torture. However, it has also been pointed out that Snape, in the past four years, when given the chance to do something horrifying like feed Sirius and Lupin to Dementors, he...doesn't. However, that could tie in with the theory that he is afraid he might revert to his old ways. CIndy said: "I was saying that Snape would have to do something Big to get back into Dumbledore's good graces, and you were saying that Dumbledore would trust Snape without it." Dumbledore has hired a half-giant, a werewolf, a Dark wizard (information which was unknown at the time), a paranoid ex-Auror who turned one of the students into a ferret, and an idiot. Granted, a lot of these people have good reasons to be trusted (or not, in Quirrel's case...and perhaps Lockhart's), but, as Moody said, "Dumbledore believes in giving second chances." Maybe just the fact that Snape turned is enough for Dumbledore to believe him, and to trust him. That, and Dumbledore knows WHEN to give people second chances. Would he give Voldemort a second chance? Now about DD's comment: "That is between Prf. Snape and myself". Well, DD held off on telling Harry the circumstances of his father's heroic act of saving Snape's life, and he has held off on telling Harry why V-Mort wanted to kill him. That, and this is SNAPE. Why would DD want to give away personal information about one of Harry's TEACHERS? Pippin said: "I think Snape went to offer his services as a spy to Voldemort and was accepted at the end of GoF, after a Crucio or two." then Judy added "Voldemort, being an Evil Overlord and all, doesn't want to believe that Snape actually was spying on him and is quite prepared to take Snape's word for it. Evil Overlords are just like that sometimes." This is where my opinions have changed. I now think that Snape did go back to V-Mort. However, I think he got more than a Crucio or two. I can think of a few excuses for the quick return and how he got away with a few minor things, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms. Cindy: "Voldemort *knows* Snape betrayed him and *knows* that Snape has been working with Dumbledore for over a decade, is just going to assume that Snape can be trusted back in Voldemort's inner circle?" Ahh, but we don't know who exactly the six missing DE are. And, as someone else has pointed out (again, too lazy to search), it's been set up too perfectly. I think that Snape will find a way to get back into V-Mort's good graces, but it will take a lot of pain and screaming in agony on his part. Cindy again: "h, I'm not buying that. See, the Evil Overlord character has to make some mistakes so that the hero can win, but the author can't take it too far. The readers will never accept Sucker!Voldemort. I mean, what does canon tell us about DEs who actually *do* betray Voldemort? But you guys think DEs who actively *betray* Voldemort also get off with Cruciatus and a really wicked scolding? No way." But the point is, we DON'T know what V-Mort would do with a turncoat, because no HAS betrayed V-Mort. We don't know how V-Mort will react. We can assume, but we don't know for sure. Granted, the evidence is pretty strong for lots and lots of pain, but maybe this'll be different. No, I still say Snape is going to have to do something huge to bring Voldemort around." I somewhat wrote (and somehow am made to sound younger than I am): Acire charged forward out of the crowd, and her words tumbled forth in a rush. "I'm new here, but I just have to say something. This idea that Dumbledore orders Karkaroff's murder is way off. Dumbledore is not the type of person to have other people do his dirty work." Then Wendy: "Yeah, that's true," said Wendy. "I just don't see Dumbledore sending Snape off to murder someone, even someone like Karkaroff. Not pre-meditated murder, even for the common good." At last, Cindy: "Oh, is *that* the problem?" Cindy replied easily. "I expected people to start fighting over paddles emblazoned with their favorite Assassin!Snape variant. But no. All I'm hearing are objections. `Snape wouldn't do such a thing ? he was a *nice* DE.' ::falls over laughing:: I don't think there's any such thing as a "nice DE", and I LOVE Snape. 'Dumbledore wouldn't do such a thing ? he's such a *nice* headmaster.' I have a minor thing against DD. He's a little odd. I can't quite put my finger on it, though. "What is it going to take to talk you all into this?" ::deadpan:: An Imperious curse. And I've forgotten what 'this' is. Oh, killing Karkaroff. Cindy again: "First of all, we already know that Dumbledore will have others do his dirty work. Oh, he has no problem with that idea at all. Dumbledore sent a wand-less Hagrid to recover Harry from Godric's Hollow, even though the place could have been swarming with murderous DEs. Dumbledore sent Hagrid to the Giants, and I think we all know how that little mission is going to turn out. Dumbledore let the trio face barriers like Devil's Snare and a vicious Three- Headed dog to safeguard the Stone. But the clearest example of all is how Dumbledore told Hermione and Harry to use the Timeturner rather than use it to do the deed himself." Ready? Okay, in order: DD knew that if V-Mort had been somewhat defeated, DEs would scatter. What better envoy to send to giants than two half-giants? DD set it up so that Harry could do it to show something to Harry about how powerful he was, and that he was not just a normal wizard, if there is such a thing. DD could not have used the TT himself, as it would be too noticeable, and Harry was personally involved with the situation. If Ron had been conscious and uninjured, I'm sure DD would have sent him along, as well. Sirius escaping was more personal to Harry because Sirius was his godfather. And DD was once again proving that he could rely on Harry to do such things himself, and to see his power at doing things. back to Cindy: "Were these things risky? Yes, although some were more risky than others. But we know for an absolute fact that Hermione and Harry were at risk when they used the Timeturner -- had they blown it, they might have attacked themselves." DD trusted Harry and Hermione to use the TT. He knew that Hermione had enough knowledge of the TT's workings to keep Harry in line, and he knew that Harry had enough sense to figure out the way things could be done to direct Hermione. Hermione constantly repeats that they can't be seen, and pulls Harry away from positions where there is danger of them being seen. Cindy: "Yup, it was the spit", Cindy said. "You hawk one at a man's feet, and he is not inclined to be charitable with you. From that point forward, he's not going to go out of his way to find a way to spare you. I say Karkaroff made himself expendable when he let loose with that loogie. Now don't get me wrong. Dumbledore wouldn't allow Karkaroff to be killed out of revenge over a bit of phlegm. That *would* be out of character. Hagrid's retaliation against Karkaroff happens for a reason, though: JKR wants to make crystal clear that what Karkaroff did was *awful* -- even by wizarding world standards. Karkaroff's little error in judgment there made Dumbledore see that Karkaroff would *never* be on Dumbledore's team." See, but that's pretty much the only thing that Karakaroff does: spit at DD's feet, tell him he's unfair. None of that is actually dark, as in dark wizard dark. However, in looking at DD's reactions to all of Karakaroff's...comments, is really none at all. During the scene directly after Harry's name comes out of the GoF, DD never directly speaks to Karkaroff, except to offer both him and Madame Maxime a nightcap, whatever that is. We don't know what DD's opinion of Karkaroff, because we never get a description of DD's face or voice in the two times he DOES speak directly to Karkaroff. DD doesn't even react to Karkaroff spitting at his feet. Hagrid does, and Hagrid is the ONLY one who does. And we all know Hagrid's opinion of DD: "Professor Dumbledore, sir." Cindy: "And that makes a big difference. Look at it this way. If Snape approaches Voldemort and does his very best song and dance to deny being Dumbledore's spy, it might work. It also might *not* work. And if it doesn't work, then Snape isn't getting out of Voldemort's lair alive, is he? So is there anyone in this room who is 100% sure that if Snape showed up, Voldemort would definitely let him live?" ::meets Cindy's gaze:: Even Sirius gives credit for Snape cunningness to keep himself out of trouble. And if DD and Snape planned this beforehand, as they most certainly did, they would have come up with an excuse smart enough for Snape to at least live. He may have to sacrifice his nerve-endings, but he's tough guy. "If there's one thing you can count on from an Evil Overlord, it's unpredictability." Do you subscibe to MAGIC DISHWASHER? I'm forgetting who does. "So when Dumbledore authorized Snape to kill Karkaroff to save Snape's hide, Dumbledore is doing the right thing. Karkaroff is a dead man anyway. At least this way, Karkaroff's death will accomplish two positive things ?- the infiltration of Voldemort's inner circle and the survival of Severus Snape. Forced to choose between Snape's life or Karkaroff's, Dumbledore will pick Snape every time." Well, why exactly would V-Mort welcome Snape back for that again? Who's to say he wouldn't just go "Good job, one less thing I have to do, Avada Kedavra Snape?" "Why, what do you make of *that!*" Cindy cried, jabbing her index finger at Faith. "Dumbledore and Snape *did* have a conversation about Karkaroff, didn't they? A conversation important enough to make it into the Pensieve. A conversation that also involved the Dark Mark. Now, if the only thing they talked about in that conversation was Voldemort's imminent return, there was no reason at all to bring Karkaroff into it, was there?" Well, Karkaroff and Snape ARE the only 2 ex-DEs on the premises. Furthur evidence. Snape's not seeing things, nor did the Ivory soap he uses react with his skin. "Not only that, what is up with Dumbledore's statement that he could have made the connection without assistance? What connection could he possibly be talking about there? That dialogue is highly suspicious, don't you think? Surely Dumbledore doesn't mean he could have connected Snape's Dark Mark with Voldemort's return if Snape kept quiet about the Mark getting stronger. No, Dumbledore means that he could have made the connection between Snape and Karkaroff all by himself. And that connection is that Dumbledore is willing to sacrifice Karkaroff to save Snape." That's shooting pretty far, don't you think? Dumbledore's commment is on Snape's Dark Mark. Well, probably the Dark Mark in general. I'm sure Snape would have noticed the Dark Mark disappearing when V- Mort turned vapor. I'm sure he would have told DD that the mark went away. So DD is smart enough to figure out that the Mark would return if V-Mort returned. He knew V-Mort was getting stronger, and he didn't need to be told that the Marks were coming back. I'm hanging onto my flag, thank you. I don't understand the purpose of it yet, so it'll probably go in my desk drawer with my HP books, but I'm hanging on to it. -Acire, who stopped in the middle of her reply to register for classes, and is sorry that this is so danged long. From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Nov 21 23:03:02 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:03:02 -0000 Subject: Colin's camera In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46934 Tim Regan wrote: > Hi All, > > --- "Grey Wolf" wrote: > > From GoF we know that wizard cameras are old > > fashioned-looking. > > How do we know that? > > The quote I can find is (GoF UK Paperback, p. 265) > > "A paunchy man, holding a large black camera which was smoking > slightly, was watching Fleur out of the corner of his eye." > > Cheers, > > Tim. Sorry - my bad. I knew there was somthing strange with the camera, but I wasn't sure what, and my GoF wasn't handy for consultation. The fact that the camera smokes slightly is even better: Colin's doesn't do it, and we can assume that magical cameras do. (I think that I simply pictured those old-fashioned flashes that smoked after being used, and everything cliked in my mind. Extremely sorry about that.) At any rate, it doesn't invalidate my point: Colin's camera is almost certainly a normal muggle camera. We could discuss, I supose, the advantages or disadvantages of wizard camaras (why have a smoking camera? how does it make it better than a regular muggle one?), but I fear that the lack of canon in this theme is abysmal, especially compared with the number of aparitions of camaras so far. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Nov 21 23:30:40 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:30:40 -0000 Subject: TBAY - Augustus Rookwood Is Ever So Sexy! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46935 Eloise is holding forth on Death Eaters to the entire tavern. "Now Augustus Rookwood," - Cindy and Eileen both perked up at the mention of this name, "(whom I have recently been persuaded by others is ever-so-sexy, no mean achievement for a man who not only doesn't speak, but isn't even *seen*), is merely accused of passing information. But look, you can kill someone by passing on information, can't you? Conspiracy to murder is morally no different from the act of murder itself, is it?"(1) Neither Cindy or Eileen answers. Instead a far away look comes into their eyes. "Is it?" demands Eloise. "Is it?" "Augustus Rookwood is dead sexy," says Eileen. "If that doesn't represent your views on the matter, Cindy, I humbly beg your forgiveness, but all your gushing posts about Rookwood did have me wondering, and got me to the point where I have a very definite picture of Rookwood. What woman wouldn't fall for "Augustus Rookwood of the Department of Mysteries?" (2) "Oh, no apology needed," cries Cindy, "as I do think Rookwood is Dead Sexy. I have his tattoo on my arm for good reason. I mean, Augustus Rookwood has it *all.* He has a dead sexy name. He outfoxed the Ministry until Karkaroff ratted him out, so he's cagey. He was the head of the Department of Mysteries, so he's powerful. The smart money says he doesn't wear lime green suits like Fudge, so he's a snappy dresser. And he's likely spent quite a long time in Azkaban, so he desperately needs the love of a good woman. Redemption? Rookwood doesn't need no stinkin' redemption. Nah, I think he's like Mrs. Lestrange -- Evil To The Core and Proud Of It. ::swoon::" (3) Everyone in the tavern is fixated on Cindy and Eileen. Porphyria chimes in, "If it's any consolation, I think a guy named Augustus Rookwood who works for the Department of Mysteries and spies for the bad guys must be dead sexy too. And I agree that with a name like Rookwood, he *must be a Ravenclaw.* I like to think he sold his soul for Dark Knowledge...." (4) "Augustus Rookwood," continues Eileen, "is exciting. He's not like the other Death Eaters. He's got that Death Eater feeling, but he's also got that Ministry feeling. A deadly combination. (5) Congratulations on joining us, Eloise, btw. I remember you were very skeptical when I first mentioned I had a crush on Rookwood." "But where's the canon?" demands Faith. Cindy doesn't look worrried in the slightest. "Canon isn't a problem. All I need is an assist from Elkins to make this thing work. I need someone to comb the text, reading *way* too much into it of course, looking for suggestive language. You know, some flared nostrils like the graveyard, some proof that someone, somewhere is about to be violated. That sort of thing. ;-)" (6) "Well, I don't know about that," says Eileen. "But I think we have enough canon already. Not text really. But subtext. Cindy's points are excellent. You know, I think we have something here that we can all agree on. No more will Eloise and I duel each other over whether Crouch Sr. or Jr. is sexier. The Sirius vs. Snape wars will end. All will unite in swooming over Rookwood. Cindy, could we have Rookwood t-shirts?" "Well," says Cindy, standing up beaming, "I won't be handing out Rookwood t-shirts, but I could be talked into handing out Rookwood thongs." (7) Every chokes on their drink. "You guys have *got* to take a break. I mean, you *do* have a couple of months to go, at the very least, before book 5 is out," Amanda is heard muttering. (8) Eileen (1),(2),(3),(4),(5),(6),(7),and(8) are taken from emails by the acknowledged authors. From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 23:31:46 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:31:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Winky's dismissal and wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021121233146.40919.qmail@web20002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46936 --- Ashfae wrote: > As an additional point on the argument about > non-human creatures > and wands, many of them don't seem to need wands; > house-elves, for > example, have very powerful magic of their own, and > don't need wands to > implement it. The law disallowing nonhumans to use > wands may not be as > prejudiced as it first seems in that respect. > > > Ashfae How can that not be prejudiced? Just because she doesn't need a want doesn't mean she shouldn't have a right to one. That's like saying people who can do amazingly complex mathmatical problems in their heads shouldn't have access to a computer or calculator. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 21 23:49:26 2002 From: speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com (frankielee242) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:49:26 -0000 Subject: Colin's camera In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46937 Grey Wolf wrote: > At any rate, it doesn't invalidate my point: Colin's camera is almost > certainly a normal muggle camera. We could discuss, I supose, the > advantages or disadvantages of wizard camaras (why have a smoking > camera? how does it make it better than a regular muggle one?), but I > fear that the lack of canon in this theme is abysmal, especially > compared with the number of aparitions of camaras so far. I'm sure someone has brought up SLR (single lens reflex) cameras already, but I'm guessing Colin would have his father's old Canon, Nikon or Minolta 35mm camera and not a new "point-and-shoot" camera, muggle or wizarding. The only support I have for this idea is that Colin's father is a milkman, not a Dairy Counsel board member. I think he would have given Colin his old camera to take to school rather than buy him a new one. In CoS, Colin was found petrified, holding his camera up to his face. This rules out a 120mm camera or other medium format cameras that he would look down into to focus. Sorry, don't have my books handy for a page number. If Colin has a "point-and-shoot" camera, he would have looked through a viewfinder that was separate from the actual lens. And he would have died, having looked the basalisk directly in the eye. Therefore, I think Colin has a basic, muggle, manual 35mm camera. With it, he would have looked through the view-finder at a mirror reflecting a second mirror on the back of the actual shutter. In short, Colin was petrified the same way Hermione and Penelope were. He just used a more expensive mirror. Frankie, who appologizes profusely if she's just repeated what someone else posted earlier. From Audra1976 at aol.com Fri Nov 22 00:00:23 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:00:23 EST Subject: Slytherin House Message-ID: <3a.2fdecf1e.2b0ecd97@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46938 wittchway at yahoo.com writes: > Supposedly the schools been around for a 1000yrs and the four > founders had aparting of the way with Slytherin then. Why didn't they > just drop him then and his name from the school? Me: I would say because Slytherin played a very important role in the founding of Hogwarts, at least just as much as Gryffindor, Ravenclaw, and Hufflepuff did. It would have been wrong just to drop his name from the school. Or here's another take on it: Slytherin would have completely invalidated a witch or wizard based on one aspect, the fact that she or he was muggleborn. If G, R, and H were to invalidate Slytherin's entire contribution to the founding of the school based on one aspect, his belief that muggleborns should not be allowed to attend, then G, R, and H would be guilty of the same sin. Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kela_bit at netvision.net.il Thu Nov 21 21:45:23 2002 From: kela_bit at netvision.net.il (Klei) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:45:23 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The teaser words on JKR's note / Serpents and Parsletongue References: Message-ID: <3DDD53F3.7050807@netvision.net.il> No: HPFGUIDX 46939 Ashfae wrote: > As for the word "dies," I am willing to lay any amount of money > that Hagrid dies in book five. (a friend of mine and I actually do > have a bet as to if it will be Hagrid or Dumbledore!) And I am willing to put money that he won't. Judy wrote: > My cats (and my ankles) would disagree. However, I don't see my cats > as evil when they attack my feet; ... Your cats attack your feet? That's odd. > I think JKR *is* setting up some animals to be strongly good > (phoenixes) while others are strongly evil (snakes). I totally agree. It is also in the roman mythology that snakes are bad and pheonixes are good. I guess that's where she took it from. Julie wrote: > And, will we see wizards who can speak other animal languages, for > good and/or evil? Well, I'm sure we will. Probably Arabella Figg can speak to her cats, and I believe Dumbledore can talk to Falks. Anyway, I'm positive it is possible to talk to other animals. If not, it is always possible to comunicate as buggles do! Katsmall the Wise kela_bit at netvision.net.il From trinity61us at yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 22:01:53 2002 From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:01:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Avada Kedavra, Abracadabra, Mrs. Norris, and blood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021121220153.17513.qmail@web14905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46940 ashfaex wrote:from: Scheherazade >>Also, there are many curses that a person cannot block against. >>Hexes, which have been mentioned in the books, are cast from afar by >>concentrating on a person, and would be very hard to block unless you >>were paranoid like Moody. But these hexes do not kill outright. They might immobilize or inconvience a person, or even cause extreme pain, but they don't solely kill in the way that Avada Kedavra does. There's still at least a _chance_ that you could block it, or that someone else could interfere, or more importantly that the effects of the curse could be undone. As for the relative morality of Avada Kedavra vs. Cruciatus and the like, that's a matter of opinion, methinks. >>Now, I know I am not the first to say this, but isn't Avada Kedvada >>sound a whole lot like the abracadabra we are all used to hearing? It >>took me so long to stop myself from thinking abracadabra when I read >>it. Has anyone welse noticed this? Or am I just crazy? Nope, you're not the first. I have an interesting book entitled *The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter: A Treasury of Myths, Legends, and Interesting Facts*, written by one David Colbert. It has this to say on the subject of Avada Kedavra: "...Although J.K. Rowling invents most of her spells and curses entirely from her imagination, the Avada Kedavra curse derives from a phrase in ancient middle Easten language called aramaic. That phrase, *abhadda kedhabhra*, meaning "disappear like this word," was used by ancient wizards to make illnesses disappear. However, there's no proof it was ever used to kill anyone. The phrase is one likely origin of the magical word *abracadabra*. Now just part of a magician's entertaining chatter, that word was once used by doctors. Quintus Serenus Samonicus, a Roman physician who lived about A.D. 200, used it as a spell to make fever vanish..." (Colbert, pgs. 17-18) It continues, but you get the idea. =) The Colbert is a great book, by the way; fun and interesting read, lots of details about the mythological bases for some of JKR's ideas. Nifty stuff. From: Carol Bainbridge >>It also strikes me as a really lucky coincidence to find Mrs. Norris >>in the right place at the right time in order to see that she's >>attacked by the basilisk. Ginny doesn't have all day to get this job >>done. I assume she has classes to go to. She wasn't missed all day, >>was she? (I don't remember.) She has to be careful of the timing when >>she paints the message on the wall. Painting the message has to take >>a while. The hallway is obviously a place students use in between >>classes. So is she hanging (no pun intended) around with the basilisk >>waiting for Mrs. Norris to show up so she can hang her up to >>emphasize her message? She's a first year and it's early in the year, >>so how much magic can she know to get Mrs. Norris to come to her? You forget, the first message and attack happened during the Halloween feast. Ginny had a great deal of time in which to open the chamber and paint the message, as everyone was up in the Great Hall (including, probably, Filch). Given that Mrs. Norris has been said on many occasions to have an uncanny ability to know when someone is in a place they shouldn't be in, and cats don't have much to do with Halloween feasts, it's not surprising that she came by Ginny. A student lingering in a corridor instead of attending a Hogwarts Feast is certainly suspicious, and would attract attention. I doubt Ginny needed to call Mrs. Norris, and I doubt that killing Mrs. Norris was originally part of the plan; Ginny/Tom just put her to good use once she was there. From: Indigo >>Not necessarily. But that does beggar the question: "where'd she get >>the blood/red paint?" Pretty sure it's stated that it was blood, in which case I'd bet it was from the roosters that Ginny killed earlier on. Ashfae (forgot to sign my name before; sorry Elf-type folks! *sheepish gryn*) ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. the fact that Kedavra sounds like "cadaver" meaning corpse? i would think this was perfectly clear! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kela_bit at netvision.net.il Thu Nov 21 22:03:25 2002 From: kela_bit at netvision.net.il (Klei) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 00:03:25 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Non-humans being discriminated (was: Serpents and Parseltongue) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021121024046.02ed1908@pop.ntlworld.com> <3DDD5054.2070001@netvision.net.il> Message-ID: <3DDD582D.7070108@netvision.net.il> No: HPFGUIDX 46941 S wrote: > On an even more sinister note, from what I can gather the Unforgivable > Curses may not be performed on humans - but I don't recall any ban on > performing them on non-humans. A house elf (or goblin, or giant, or > any one > of a whole list of sentient beings who aren't human) annoys you, and you > wave your wand and yell "Crucio"? To me, it is very disturbing if that is > acceptable (or legal) behaviour . . . >From what you say, even Hagrid is not safe, being a half-giant. That means that Malfoy, for example, can simply come to him and say Avada Kedavra! And that's it. No more Hagrid. I hate having one-liners :-( Katsmall the Wise kela_bit at netvision.net.il From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 23:34:50 2002 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:34:50 -0000 Subject: Polyjuice Potion!Dumbledore (TBAY?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46942 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" wrote: > So we know there was a gleam in Dumbledore's eye in the end of GOF. I remember reading that and being very, very disturbed. But I recently read a theory somewhere that this gleam actually proved Dumbledore's GOODNESS. We already know that V-mort can be careless (ex when Harry tells him in CoS that V-mort failed to kill him because of Harry's mother, V- mort says something to the effect of "oh yeah, I should have remembered that") When Harry said that V-mort put some of his (Harry's) blood into him (V-mort), DD got a gleam in his eye. What if using Harry's blood provides some kind of downfall for V-mort? What if it makes him mortal again? Or gives Harry some kind of power'advantage over him? I like this a lot better than the idea that DD is evil...because that would be REALLY upsetting. :-) --Laura From wynnde1 at aol.com Thu Nov 21 23:58:05 2002 From: wynnde1 at aol.com (wynnde1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:58:05 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: TBAY - Snape the Killer Message-ID: <9.2c0c9ec.2b0ecd0d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46943 Wendy picks up her fresh drink and moves away from the bar, going to sit in one of the unoccupied booths for a minute. She's feeling a bit overwhelmed, and actually, rather disturbed about how to possibly respond to everything Eileen has said while keeping it a TBAY response. Then, an idea hits her. She can fall back on a tried-and-true literary device . . . the FLASHBACK! That way she can skip around as much as she likes! Of course it can be dreadful when improperly used, but seeing as though she's got little to lose, she decides to go for it. Smiling, she leans back into the soft cushions of of the bench (didn't red leatherette go out of fashion about twenty years ago?), and sips her brandy. Feeling more relaxed, she thinks back over the conversation of the past hour . . . > > "Wendy, we haven't had a good Snape discussion for just ages," Eileen said, > grinning. "And now Cindy has got it going again, I'm in seventh heaven. You > see, Severus Snape is one of my favourite characters. Along with Remus > Lupin, of > course." > Wendy's eyes light up. "Severus *and* Remus, you say? Oh, Eileen, I think you and I are going to get along just *fine*. They're my favourites, too. And did you *really* torture your dolls, like Elkins said? I never did when I was young, but that's only because I hated dolls too much to own one! Hmnh. But I could have kidnapped my sister's Barbies and tortured them . . . if only I'd thought of that at the time. But, oh well . . . "But, let's get back to this Snape as Killer thing. I still don't see Dumbledore hiring an ex-sadist/rapist/torturer/murderer to teach the kiddies at Hogwarts. > "Why not?" said Eileen. "I wouldn't. But Dumbledore... Dumbledore > trusts where others wouldn't, to quote Sirius from memory . . . great examples of all the things Sirius was wrong about in Padfoot Returns> > So, anyway, Dumbledore has decided that Severus Snape has repented, and in > his vision of the world, where choice trumps all, I don't see why he would > object to > having a repentant murderer on the staff, if he was absolutely certain > he had repented. And we do know that Dumbledore is certain. > Dumbledore works in mysterious ways." "Hmnh, Wendy said. You could be right about this. I don't claim to understand the mind of Albus Dumbledore at all. Actually, I tend to think that his judgement is not NEARLY as good as many seem to think. I have some real issues with some of the things he's done. Maybe we just don't understand enough yet about the "Prank" and its seeming lack of repercussions. And then there's that extremely dodgy point-giving episode after Harry "saved" the Philosopher's Stone. But at this point I don't agree with some of the decisions he's made. However, I don't think I'll get into all that just now. I need to think it through a bit more thorougly before I'm ready to talk about good and evil. Or the lack thereof." Wendy grinned a bit wickedly. This is obviously a subject very near and dear to her heart. Fog appears from nowhere, obscuring the scene for just a moment. Then, it clears and we find that we've moved further ahead in the conversation . . . Wendy mentioned that Snape had not yet done anything canonically evil, to which Eileen replied, > "I myself think Rowling has something nasty up her > sleeve there, something that is going to make Harry blanche." "You could be right." Then Wendy shook her head, "But isn't the fact that Snape was a Death Eater enough to make Harry blanche? Do you really need gore and blood and murder and death on Snape's hands?" Eileen smiles, absentmindedly stroking the feathered thing which is wound around her neck. "Erm," Wendy says quickly, "maybe you do. By the way, where did you get that thing? It's really quite lovely, in a disturbing sort of way. I was thinking I might be in the market for one soon. "But back to Snape - I'm still not convinced that he was anything but a misguided youth. I went back (er, using my Time Turner, I suppose?) and read the posts you recommended. They were absolutely FANTASTIC, and gave me lots to think about, but I'm still not ready to accept Killer Snape. Not yet. I agree that Snape in all likelihood came from a Dark Arts family. But that doesn't mean he himself would turn out evil, right? After all, it's about our CHOICES in this series. Don't we keep getting pounded in the head with *that* often enough? So Snape knows some curses, and makes enemies with some of the Gryffindors. And, of course, as we hear everything from Harry's PoV, we're meant to believe that Snape was the cause of all the animosity (just like Draco causes all the trouble for Harry and Co.). But it's *not that simple*. Oh, I know what I'm about to say will be nothing that hasn't been discussed before. But when I try and reconcile what is actually in canon with the various backstories I can imagine, I still don't get an EvilDeathEater!Snape. I don't believe the door is closed to EvilDeathEater!Snape, but it's not obvious to me, by any means. Perhaps what I should do is go through and categorically list all the information we have about the rivalries between Slytherin and Gryffindor students, both in the present, and during the days when the Marauders were terrorising the Hogwarts' student population. (Oh, did I say terrorising? Oops). Yes, that sounds like a good idea. But until I get around to that (if I *ever* get around to it), I think I can safely say that, while Draco usually seems to start the verbal arguments, it is nearly always Ron who gets physically violent first. (So who has got the "visceral instincts" in this scenario? ). Are we meant to believe that Ron is evil because he thinks it's perfectly acceptable to try and pound Draco to a pulp everytime he says something unpleasant? I don't believe Ron is evil. But, I'm also not convinced that Draco is evil. Not necessarily. My real point here is that it doesn't really matter who starts the fights - there is a rivalry between these kids that goes *both* ways. The Gryffindors are not an innocent party being continually injured by the evil Slytherins. Even if this is how it is portrayed, this is because we see things through Harry's eyes. And how many teenagers are willing to take this sort of responsibility for their actions (or see the responsibility carried by their friends)? Heck, my sister-in-law and I *hate* each other. And I can easily make a very compelling argument that she's just a stroppy nightmare and I've done nothing to provoke her ever, but I know that's not true. Even if she has started things at times, I chose to "finish" them, and I've started a few of my own, as well. No injured party here, just two people who don't like one another. "And of course there is a parallel between Harry, etc., and the children of the previous generation. And what do know about that rivalry? Sirius telling Harry that Severus knew lots of curses. And Dumbledore telling us that there was a rivalry between James and Severus which was similar to the one shared by Harry and Draco. And the "Prank" seems to illustrate a dynamic alarmingly similar to the one happening between Draco and Ron. Snape goes around poking his nose in things and trying to get them expelled. Certainly understandable that the Gryffs wouldn't like him. Then Sirius excalates things to a whole new level by setting up a situation where Severus could DIE! "In both cases, I think it's actually the actions of the Gryffindors (Ron and Sirius) which are more reprehensible. Name calling is one thing, physical violence is entirely another. In my not so humble opinion. Plus they never even seem to think that anything they've done is *wrong*. Oh, I don't expect it of Ron. He's not actually tried to kill anyone, after all, and Draco is a miserable git. That doesn't give Ron the excuse to become violent, but he's young. Hopefully he will learn this in time. (Hmnh. I can think of a few government leaders whom I wish would learn this lesson, as well). But I do expect it of Sirius. He's an adult, and should realise that what he did was heinously wrong. But he still sticks to his, "Snape deserved it" story. Which is a load of crap, anyway you look at it. And I'm simply unable to respect Sirius because of it. Which is a shame, really, because he's actually Dead Sexy. Now that he's cleaned up a bit, anyway." Wendy shrugged, then took a deep breath, realising that she'd gone into a bit of a rant. She smiled suddenly, a smile intended to charm anyone she may have happened to offend. Again, the strange - and somewhat annoying - fog appears. When the room comes back into focus, Wendy's meandering train of thought has once again taken a rather awkward leap into the future. This flashback thing isn't as easy as it looks! > Wendy and Eileen spoke a bit about good and evil . . . > "I always sort of thought that this was the point JKR was making - > Snape isn't meant to prove that evil is complicated, but that *good* is > complicated, too. We shouldn't assume someone is evil just because they > aren't nice or pretty or use proper hygiene." > > "Absolutely, Wendy," says Eileen. "I do think that's the first point > to be made about Snape. The PS/SS point." > Wendy grins a bit maliciously. "Oh, Eileen, I don't know about this. Snape is the poster child for 'good is complicated' in the first book, but he later becomes the 'evil is complicated' mascot later in the series? Do you really think you can have it both ways?" Then, Eileen, with some help from Elkins, shared with Wendy the "murderers play Bach" discussion, which did indeed fit exactly with what Wendy had been trying to say." Wendy then shared her rather unsavoury backstory for Snape, at which point Eileen reminded her of the lovely "Perversion in the Graveyard" discussion which had taken place a couple of months earlier. Ooh. She had enjoyed that one, especially since it means there is a possibility that some of the more horrible things that have been theorised might actually be written into the stories in such as way as to not be noticed by people who didn't read them with the correct, erm, filters. The two talked about Snape's past, and Wendy suggested that teenage Snape might not have been able to defend himself against the sexual attentions of Voldemort. Eileen wisely pointed out, "No, > But don't we face that question > however we take our Snape?Whether Voldemort was sexually preying on Snape > or not, he was preying on Snape. And Avery. And Rosier. And Wilkes. And Mr. > Lestrange. And even Mrs. Lestrange of the shining hair, the heavy-lidded > eyes, and the fanatical spotlight-hogging. I don't see how this would make > Snape less a killer, less a DE." "Ah," nodded Wendy. "Excellent point. And it does make SexuallyExploitedTeenage!Snape unnecessary (even if Perversion in the Graveyard makes it more possible). However, *I* don't see how it makes him any *more* a killer or DE. Yes, he was susceptible to whatever line Voldemort was handing out, and I do believe that he joined the Death Eaters willingly, eyes at least half-open (a point which is sort of part of the Georgian theory, if I'm reading it correctly). But it still doesn't rule out Snape not really understanding what he was getting into - let's see, someone said it really well . . . oh, I'll never find the reference now, but I think it was Marina who said something about it all being fine and dandy until the first time Voldemort says, "Here, go torture this baby." Argh. So now I seem to be back where I started. Snape never actually did anything heinous. Guess that means I'm not likely to be on Avery's list of favourite people anytime soon, either." Around this time, Wendy noticed that Eileen had been drinking steadily throughout the evening, and commented about it : > "You're sure drinking a lot > of brandy." > > "Yes, do you know what the significance of brandy is? You see, TBAY > brandy is different than real world brandy. Cindy puts something in it > that turns the most staid, sycophantish, and bleeding heart theorizers > into bloodythirsty fanatics. FEATHERBOAS, we call ourselves. (Foaming > Enthusiasts of Ambush, Torture, and Hostility, Embracing Really > Bloodthirsty Operations and Savagery.) Cindy founded the organization. > The point is I want blood on Snape's hands. You said earlier that you > could *perhaps* be converted. So, I'll give it a shot. Elkins!" > Wendy motioned to George to bring her another drink. Settling into her chair, she found herself feeling a bit unnerved, and something else . . . what is it? Excited. Yes, that's it. Excited. She's been happy all this time with her beloved Potion's Master the way he is, but is it possible, just possible that she's misjudged him - and has been believing he's someone he's not? And there is something rather . . . intoxicating about the thought of Snape not being misled, guilt-ridden, and absent of all self-esteem because he hates himself for things he didn't even *do*, as Wendy has always imagined him. Maybe this *other* Snape, this Killer Snape is actually stronger, more powerful. Hmnh. Sexier, even? She nodded at Eileen, "Okay. I'm ready to hear it. Do your worst." > At Eileen's request, Elkins lifted up her head wearily and began quoting. < > snip some rather compelling evidence for Snape's taste for physical > violence When she'd finished, Eileen looked at Wendy. "You can choose, > Wendy, between sadist > and non-sadist Snape. I like the first because it makes him so much more > interesting, so compelling. To go back to what Elkins said in the first > place, his instincts go all one way, and his behaviour go the other. Now, > that's heroism. That's courage. That's my Severus Snape!" > > "Well, I'm still not convinced," said Wendy, thoughtfully, "that he was ever > THAT bad in the first place." > Eileen and Elkins then shared with Wendy the mysteries of the Credo for George. Using her time turner (okay, I know this is hokey, but I can't get this post chronological without it!), Wendy went back two hours and spendt them browsing the huge and fascinating tome that begins with Message > 35530. When Wendy returned, Eileen could sense a tentativeness on Wendy's part. Is it possible this wretched girl is *still* not convinced? Eyes blazing, Eileen began, "> If we say Snape was never as bad as the rest of them, we lose the > power of his character. The idea that yes, you can be ever-so-evil and > then... It's all about... It's all about Redemption!" Cindy> "And otherwise, otherwise, we have a universe where Snape only is > redeeemed because he always was better than the others, intrinsic worth and > all," > > Eileen choked up, and threw herself into Avery's arms, burying her > head in his shoulder. He patted her head awkwardly, in best Ron Weasley > fashion. Wendy hurried to her side, careful not to get any closer to Avery than is necessary. "Eileen, Eileen," she said soothingly. "It's alright. No need to get so upset. It's probably just all that brandy. And really, there is nothing that would please me more than to attribute the highest strength and moral fibre and what-have-you to our beloved Potions Master. Oh, yes. I want Snape to be the best that he can be, whatever that means." Eileen looked up. She seemed to have recovered quickly from her outburst. "So, you're converted, then? I've convinced you that Snape has to have blood on his hands?" Wendy frowned. "Well, no . . . not exactly." Eileen's face fell, and Wendy quickly added, "I'm not unconvinced, either. It's just that, well, I guess I'm a bit more of a Georgian than I'd have suspected I'd be. I'm just not a girl to get banged around one time and POW! Conversion! I need some time to think about this. Take it all in. And come to my own conclusion. How does this fit with what I believe to be true about Snape? What things am I believing about Snape which might not be accurate? And, most important of all . . . Can I still love him if it turns out he was once truly evil?" Wendy looked thoughtful for a moment. "Oh, who am I kidding. Of COURSE I'll still love him!" Wendy grinned. "So, give me a day or two to live with this and see where it takes me, and I'll let you know think then, okay?" Eileen sat back, seemingly satisfied with Wendy's answer, even if she looked a tiny bit disappointed. Then, a frown passed over Wendy's face, and she looked a bit worried. "Is something wrong?" Eileen asked. "Well, there is something," Wendy began tentatively. "You know how we talked about Perversion in the Graveyard, and LYCANTHROPE and all that?" Eileen nodded. "I just love LYCANTHROPE. Well, in a "oh my heavens I hope it really won't happen like that! because it would break my heart" sort of way. My favourite bit is Remus' response in the Shack when Sirius asks him to forgive him for thinking he was the spy. 'Not at all.' Ooooh," Wendy closed her eyes and shivered, obviously enjoying the sensation. "That's such a deliciously chilling line." Eileen nodded in enthusiastic agreement. Wendy continued, "Well, I was just thinking how much I *love* all that, well, that really *dark* stuff. And Bach is my favourite composer, too. I'm starting to think I definitely may be rather, erm, *bent*. That's not going to be a *problem* around here, now, is it?" Eileen laughed, shaking her head and giving George a meaningful look. "Oh, no, Wendy. Not a problem at *all*." "Good," Wendy sighed contentedly. "I'm starting to like it here, and I think I might hang around a while." Wendy crooked her finger at George, motioning him over. "I think I'll try a brandy, please." She turned back to Eileen, "And, there was that matter of an introduction to Lucius . . . " Wendy, (Who has lots more she wanted to write tonight - including an apology to Grey Wolf, whose feelings she certainly never meant to hurt - but has run out of time, so will try and get it all down tomorrow.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From charisjulia at hotmail.com Fri Nov 22 01:06:39 2002 From: charisjulia at hotmail.com (charisjulia) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 01:06:39 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Assassin!Snape Meets Saboteur!Snape (WAS Saboteur!Snape's Next Mission) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46944 Charis was staring gloomily at her drink. "Hmph," she thought huffily to herself. "I thought I made myself perfectly clear to Cindy before. Hang it all, I * did* make myself perfectly clear. I told her what I thought of that ridiculous idea of having Dumbledore send Snape off to? to---" -- Charis could barely bring herself to even * think* the word ? " to * assassinate* people and yet, look! Here she is still cockily leaning against the bar, trying to make herself look ohhh?so? superior?and?worldly and *still * insisting on making the two of them out to be . . . to be * murderers*!." "Ha!" thinks Charis grouchily and wrinkles her nose against the stench of vodka reeking from the Captain. "Worldly my foot! I mean, presumably she can make some sense out of that twisted little world she lives in in her * mind*, but she definitely doesn't know anything about the Potterverse!" Cindy was smugly stirring her B?52. >"See, Charis, you, uh . . . you don't >defeat Grindewald without breaking a few *heads,* you know." Charis brought her drink down on the counter with a splash and a smash and turned round to glare resolutely at Cindy. "And why not if I may ask? Since we know that Dumbledore went through the whole of Vold War I without resorting to his Dark Powers and yet * still* was the only wizard that Voldemort feared, why then should we assume that he could not defeat Grindewald too ? who was, after all, less powerful? without resorting to bland murder?" Cindy, obviously and irritatingly unperturbed, shrugged. OK, that was fine with her then. Charis could have her good and moral Dumbledore if she must. What did Cindy care? After all, there were still the Assassin! variants to bring out. And no less than three of them either: > First, there is the 'Karkaroff's Head On A >Stake' variant. Snape and Dumbledore have hatched a can't-miss plan >to absolutely insure Snape's welcome back into the DE fold. Snape >apparates straight to Voldemort's lair clutching two things in his >slimy hands to prove his loyalty beyond question -? Karkaroff's wand >and Karkaroff's *head.*" > >There was an icy silence as the patrons sat motionless. "BANG!" >whispered George, his blue eyes wide and staring somewhere in the >distance. > >"But as you point out, Charis, that is awfully mean for Dumbledore >and Snape to just hunt Karkaroff down like a dog in the street and >then up and kill the poor man in cold blood like that. I mean >*Whoa!* > >"So let's consider the next variant -? Snape doesn't kill Karkaroff >himself. I mean, where's the fun in that? No, instead there's >the 'Bring Him In Alive' variant. Snape apprehends Karkaroff and >brings him to Voldemort alive -- furs and all. Snape is able to >prove his loyalty to Voldemort without getting any, er, blood on his >hands, so to speak. Now, if Karkaroff had his choice, he would >probably prefer that Snape go with 'Karkaroff's Head On A Stake,' >frankly. 'Cause you *know* what Karkaroff's fate is under 'Bring >Him In Alive.' Let's just say that there will be a great lot of >screaming, begging, weeping and sniveling and leave it at that. >It's Bangy -- if you, uh, like that sort of thing. "But," Cindy glanced up at Charis, "I can see that you, err, apparently * don't*. So, err," ? Cindy's was just beginning to get slightly worried now?- "let's just move on to the last variant shall we? >the traditional 'The Devil Made Me Do It' variant. >Snape goes to Voldemort, who sends him after Karkaroff *or else,* so >Snape ?- deeply conflicted and racked with guilt -? does what he >must do." "Oh, yeah," Charis smirked gleefully. "Yeah, that would be one great plan of Snape and Dumbledore's wouldn't it? I can just imagine the intent, meticulous, ingenious scheming: "So, Severus, here's what you do: if Voldemort ever manages to come back to power, your first step is just to apparate right back at his side. Got it? Right?ho! Now, next, you wait for Voldemort's reaction, ok? If Voldemort happens to have some poor wretch he wants to off, then, no problem and you're in business! If not, well, errr, tough luck, mate . . ." "You see," Charis continued, "If Snape returns to Voldemort without anything to offer, well, that's just suicidal. But if he on the other hand * expects* to be asked to kill Karkaroff, or any Karkaroff for that matter, then, well, that's no better really than any of your other scenarios, Cindy. He's still accepting murder as a possible consequence of his actions. He still has the intent (even if it is of a lesser degree) to assassinate. And," she finishes off firmly, "I still don't like it." "Besides, there's still one more problem with this whole Assassin! Snape theory." Charis touched Cindy softly on the shoulder and lifted finger to her lips. "Here, shhh, be quiet a minute. . ." Charis pointed to the other side of the Tavern where two young women were bending slightly over a mountain of loose parchment roles and empty, discharged ink?pots. A wisp of ruffled, fly?away hair was just barely visible over the top. "There. Listen to that:" Elkins, in message 35196: >The suggestion that Snape left the DEs because when it came right >down to it, he lacked a taste for torture or murder, for example, has >always left me a bit cold because in my reading of Snape, of *course* >he has a taste for it. A taste for it is *exactly* what he's got. >His taste for it...well, that's sort of his problem, isn't it? And then in post 35360: >As I see it, Snape is somebody who works very hard at trying to do >the right thing, trying not to descend into whatever it is that he >fears that he once was. "There," Charis turned back to Cindy. "D'you hear that? D' you know what that means? Forget about Dumbledore and Dumbledore's scruples! Snape won't kill Karkaroff because Snape has a moral code of his own you know. And I have a feeling that Snape's moral code, at least where he himself is concerned, might very well be actually quite a lot stricter than Dumbledore's. Snape can never, ever, commit cold? blooded murder again, because Snape will never, ever permit himself to do so. He's afraid of that slippery slope. He's afraid he's going to lose his grip. He's afraid he'd fall back, back into old habits, old addictions, old pleasures not so easily forgotten. He's afraid of himself." "Oh, he might allow himself the odd act of physical violence now and again when circumstances demand it. But * only* when circumstances * demand* it. Only when it is *no less than absolutely necessary*. And never, ever, ever premeditated. "You see, Cindy, the problem with this Assassin! plan is that it ruins all my Snape for me. It makes murder something too easy for him and therefore minimises the psychological effect his decision to leave the DEs and accept a new set of principles had on him. Assassin! Snape doesn't appear to have any qualms at all at the idea of murder, but I can't read Snape like that. My Snape would have qualms. My Snape would * made* himself have qualms!" "And that's why I'm really getting into this idea of having Snape be in charge of taking over Azkaban. Besides the parallelism with Hagrid's task which the text itself suggests and which is as a literary motif is always sure to appeal to my tidy little mind, it forces Snape to come face to face with the reality of what he was and what he would be now had he not repented in time. His own old schoolfriends --- broken, ravaged, half?mad we are told by a decade and a half in the wizarding prison --- would bring that reality home to him with a very nasty jolt." * * * Derannimer wrote: >I think that, in order to become a Death Eater, you have to bind >yourself to Lord Voldemort, in an arrangement whereby he gives you >nifty extra powers, and you give him *you*: your service, possibly >your powers to some degree (which could only add to his strength), >and, naturally (this is a "deal with the devil", after all) your >actual soul. This is a "binding magical contract;" it cannot be >broken, no matter how much you repent, no matter how badly you want >to renege--you keep your nifty powers, and Lord Voldemort keeps your >soul. Your body, and your intellect, and (obviously) your will can go >on their merry way, but some fairly substantial part of you splits >off from the rest and stays with Voldemort. Derannimer trails off nervously. Charis Julia is standing stock still in front of her, her mouth gaping in a rather inelegant fashion. Finally she finds her voice. "Ooooh," she breaths softly, "oooh, my. . . oh, my, this is good, this is very good . . . This is --- " Charis whips smartly around and hold a hand up to the bartender. "Oy, George, get the girl a drink! Proto boy!" Charis turns back to Derannimer, a wide smile flashing happily. "It's on me." "Phew, did you pull me out of a jam Derannimer! Quite a tight spot I'd found myself in there for a moment!" Amanda wrote: >"By the way, whoever thinks that Severus Snape would be able to cast a >Patronus is deluded. He is clearly a powerful wizard, despite his disdain >for "wand-waving," but given his past, I strongly doubt that he has too many >memories or thoughts of happiness upon which to draw. Even if he *can* >manage one, it certainly won't be strong enough to fend off the assembled >presence of all of Azkaban's dementors." "Boy, did beads of sweat start running down my forehead when I read that! Good point, very good point. . . Not that is matters anymore." Charis thumps Derannimer appreciatively on the back. " Deal with the Devil. . . oooh, yes, this is sooo right! That's why Dumbledore "must" ask Snape to do this. . . that's why Snape's the only one who could ever take on this job, the only hope Dumbledore's side has of ridding Azkaban of it's present guards without Fudge's consent. Oh, I'll gladly sacrifice a few Dementor torturing Snape scenes for this . . . after all as I said before simply seeing his old comrades is likely going to be a harrowing enough experience for Snape. Oh, yes, yes, this is good, Derannimer! Refill?" * * * One small last matter: Acire wrote : >What I meant was, you said that Dumbledore immediately >tackles the two points he tried to make to Fudge: send envoys to the >giants, and get the Dementors out of Azkaban. Well, if Snape was >indeed supposed to get Dementors out of Azkaban, or prepare for it, >why does Dumbledore send him off right away, and wait a week to send >of Hagrid? Both people in question are teachers at the school, yet >Dumbledore waits a week to send one off, and sends the other off >right away, both to do things that he said are extremely important >to accomplish before V-Mort beats them to it. >Anyway, that was the point *I* was trying to make. Ah, right, now I see what you mean! Sorry, didn't quite get it before. Well, what I would point out now is that Dumbledore called Hagrid (and M.Maxime if she would consent to come) to his office and presumably saw them both right after he left the hospital wing. Which was right after he dispatched Snape. You yourself pointed out that we have no indication that Potion classes are cancelled at all in the week that followed, so Snape must still have been at Hogwarts. In other words what I am suggesting here is that after Fudge's refusal to deal with the situation himself, Dumbledore set out preparing to sort out these two problems, attending to the more pressing one first (by speaking first to Snape) and only then turning to the one of the Giants (by sending for Hagrid and M. Maxime). When do Snape and Hagrid actually leave Hogwarts for some field work? Well, Canon seems to indicate that they both waited till at least the end of term. And then there's that comment of Dumbledore's in "The Parting of the Ways": (sorry, quoting from memory here again.) "Fudge's attitude, though not unexpected, changes everything." This I read as meaning "makes everything much harder" and indeed we can suppose that it very likely will. Take the matter of the Giants for example: Dumbledore can send his own envoys if he wants and I believe he does. But the importance of the gesture is very much diminished by the lack of official MoM authorisation. Dumbledore can promise his own support but he is in no position to "extend the hand of friendship" of the whole wizarding world. He is not after all their representative. Fudge is. Similarly, if Dumbledore really does mean to do anything about the Dementors he is very much restricted by the opposition of the Minister of Magic. And in this case the restriction is more evident in that it necessitates postponing an action what D. obviously considers very urgent. He can't do anything about the Dementors untill the rest of the wizarding world can be brought to see the necessity of the measure. Otherwise there would just be panic. In other words, there's no hurry. Charis Julia. PS. Eileen wrote: >"Julia Charis!" cries Eileen. "Long time, no see! We've been bemoaning >your disapearance for a while. As I explained to Eileen off list I've recently moved country, which is the reason I couldn't do more that lurk for quite some while. It's good to be back! From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 22 01:10:20 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 01:10:20 -0000 Subject: MAGIC DISHWASHER explanation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46945 > The oak doors swing wide once again at the TBAY saloon, > otherwise known as The Pink Flamingo Bar, as if blown open by > a gust of wind. The full moon rides out from the clouds above the > storm-wracked bay just long enough to cast a giant shadow into > the room. From far away comes a drawn out shuddering howl, > and the faint churning of a magical kitchen appliance. A cloaked > figure enters? Only this time it's not Pippin. It's the Pip!Squeak. A silence forms as the Pipsqueak walks calmly towards the back room. "George. Cup of tea, please." George stutters as he tries to get the words out "I I don't think we, err, have any " He pauses. The Pipsqueak is staring at him. "Any warmed teapots. Yes. That's it. We've just run out of warmed teapots. My sister Diana broke the last one." The Pipsqueak swings herself onto a barstool. "Oh, for goodness sake, George! Stop stuttering, find a teabag, and just sling it into a mug with some boiling water." She looks around cheerfully. "Anyone mention a DISHWASHER three times? Because I'm here!" The silence is suddenly broken by Cindy, who has now decided to offer her rendition of `Dammed for all time' from Jesus Christ Superstar. George, meantime, has arrived with the tea. It's in a pint beer glass, but then, you can't have everything. Abigail rather shakily raises her hand. "Me. It was me who mentioned DISHWASHER. I think it was more times than three, though " A very tall, large, hairy figure loomed. `I have been discussing Abigail's analogy with the fireman who decides that the house is going to burn down anyway, so he might as well burn it down now. And explaining that the DISHWASHER and the Safe House are entirely different things.' "Yes, Grey Wolf. The Safe House is proof against Hurricane Jo [ see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/45528 ]. And most TBAYers could claim a room there. Even Pippin could live there if she wanted. But it's entirely possible that the DISHWASHER might be damaged or destroyed. No, what I came to discuss with Abigail was the following assertion." The Pipsqueak took a small object, rather like a cigarette packet in shape, from her pocket. Every old TBAYer in the room took one look and hit the floor. Curious newbies were dragged down as they tried to take a look. [1] "Err? People? It's a portable voice recorder, that's all. I'm just going to play Abigail's words back." She switched the machine on. The sound of Abigail's voice, magically amplified, came from it: "the fact that MD might strenghen Assassin!Snape - and I'm a bit surprised to see that no one from the Safe House has showed up at the TBAY tavern to back Cindy up -." "DISHWASHER would support Assassin!Snape, would it?" said the Pipsqueak, with a dangerous softness to her voice. "Well, yes." Said Abigail, rather blankly. "I think I have a firm grasp of MAGIC DISHWASHER." "Not as firm as she thinks, if you ask me" says the Wolf. "Indeed." Says the Pipsqueak. She settles herself firmly on the barstool, takes a swig of the tea, then pauses. "George. You are a wonderful Snapetheory, but you can't make tea at all, can you?" George shrugs. "Not really. But my Turkish coffee is amazing." ********************************************************************* OK. Would Dishwasher!Dumbledore and Dishwasher!Snape conspire together to assassinate Karkaroff? Let's examine their canon actions, shall we? **PS/SS** Quirrelmort and the attempted theft of the Philosopher's Stone. Dead bodies: One, Quirrel, killed when Voldemort abandoned his body. Note that while Dumbledore undoubtedly *fought* Quirrelmort, he did not kill him. Dumbledore: "I arrived just in time to pull Quirrel off you..", "He [Voldemort] left Quirrel to die" [PS/SS Ch. 17, pp.215 ?216] Probably now deceased: Nicolas and Perenelle Flamel. Dumbledore's comment: "Nicolas and I have had a little chat and *agreed* it's all for the best". [PS/SS Ch. 17, p.215] [my emphasis]. Snape: Not only does not kill anyone, he tries to save Harry's life, and gives Quirrel a chance to repent in Ch.13 (which is after Quirrel has tried to murder Harry). **CoS** Dead bodies: One, Moaning Myrtle, killed by Tom Riddle 50 years before the start of the current story (via the Balilisk). Petrified bodies: loads. Again, Tom Riddle is responsible, not Dumbledore. Snape: Doesn't kill anyone. **PoA** Dead bodies: None. At all. Not even Pettigrew, who murdered twelve people. Dishwasher!Dumbledore has actually (through Harry) given Pettigrew one of his famous second chances. Or rather, another chance, because as of GoF, dear Peter has currently betrayed a Potter a second time and will probably go for a third before the cock crows. Snape: Well, he *talks* a great fight. But what he *does* is conjure up stretchers and deliver everyone to Dumbledore alive and, err, not-kicking-because-they're-unconscious. Dishwasher!Dumbledore and Dishwasher!Snape do *not* decide that the inconvenient Sirius Black is best disposed of to the Dementors, guilty or not. Instead, Black gets to tell his side of the story, and when Dumbledore decides he is sort of innocent, an escape from the MoM is arranged. Snape (Dishwasher or not) gets Lupin fired. He does not, for example, haul out his wand and go on a little hunting expedition to find a dangerous werewolf in the Forbidden Forest. **GoF** Dead bodies: Frank Bryce. Killed by Voldemort. Bertha Jorkins. Killed by Voldemort Crouch Sr, killed by Crouch Jr. Cedric `Spare' Diggory. Killed by Voldemort (via Peter Pettigrew). Cedric was *not* killed by Dumbledore. Dishwasher!Dumbledore did not plan the Graveyard. He did not plan for Cedric to get kidnapped with Harry. He did not plan for Harry to get kidnapped at all. Soul Sucked: Crouch Jr. By a Dementor brought in by Fudge, *without* Dumbledore's permission. **The matter of consent.** It is undoubted that Dishwasher!Dumbledore risks peoples lives ? especially the Trio's. But have they consented to this? **PS/SS** In Chapter 16 Professor McGonagall explains twice to the Trio that the Stone is well protected, and they are not needed. Snape also warns them off. The Trio go ahead anyway, after Harry's rather famous speech that a returned Voldemort is not going to `leave you and your families alone'. [p. 197 UK paperback]. In short, the Trio are given every opportunity to say, `Ok, we're a bunch of kids, let's leave it to the adults' ? but they CHOOSE not to. So, yes, Dumbledore is using need-to-know on Harry, and manouvering him into certain situations ? but in the fight against Voldemort, Harry (and Ron and Hermione) are volunteers. **CoS** In CoS there is no canon evidence whatsoever that Dumbledore has any idea how to get into the Chamber of Secrets to stop the Balilisk. Dishwasher!Dumbledore sends Harry help via Fawkes and the Sorting Hat. Dishwasher! Dumbledore has not set up the Chamber as a training exercise for Harry. Dishwasher!Dumbledore is reacting to a situation engineered by Voldemort via Lucius Malfoy. Hermione is petrified by Tom Riddle. Not by Dumbledore. **PoA** PoA has been discussed extensively in post 39662 (link below), so I'll just point out that all Dishwasher!Dumbledore and Dishwasher! Snape's manoeuvring is aimed at forcing Harry, not into making *A* particular choice, but into making his *OWN* choice. The fact that Dumbledore bases his plan on his belief that Harry will make the right choice shows only that Dumbledore has true faith in Harry's essential goodness. **GoF** Again, Dumbledore is reacting to an attack by Voldemort ? which this time is aimed directly at Harry. Yes, the Flawed!Potion plan of Dishwasher does put any enemy of Voldmort at risk as Voldemort tries to get blood for the potion (and Harry is at special risk), but I suspect that Dishwasher!Dumbledore was hoping that the protection around Harry would be heavy enough to save his life. And enemies of Voldemort are at risk anyway. I think this is the essential point, that Harry has so clearly grasped at age 11, but so many of our MD detractors seem to have missed. Voldemort is evil. Voldemort is a murderer. If Voldemort wins, Harry is dead. Hermione the muggle-born is dead. Ron, and the entire Weasley family will be dead. And so will many, many other enemies of Voldemort. And along with the declared enemies will also be those like Cedric Diggory, who just found themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time. And, the central tenent of Dishwasherism: Voldemort is not going to go away. Ever. Vapour!Voldemort is immortal. The only chance of destroying Voldemort is to force him into making himself mortal again. To carry on with the fireman analogy, Abigail: Dumbledore is like an elderly one-person firebrigade, whose town is plagued by a pyromaniac. This pyromaniac is seemingly uncatchable, and has killed a lot of people in his fires. Things have been quiet for a few years (rumours are that some kid managed to throw a petrol can right back in the maniac's face), but the signs are that this guy is planning to make a comeback. There's been a failed raid on the local petrol station for one thing. [Attempted theft of Philosopher's Stone] So our fireman Dumbledore has two choices. He can hope that the pyromanic is going to give up after the failed petrol station raid, and hope like heck that the pyromaniac hasn't just decided that maybe it would be more sensible to wait until Dumbledore's retired, or has been fired due to age and incapacity [or because of a planted diary, anyone?]. Or he can pick an abandoned building, place a tempting petrol can or two there and stake it out while waiting to see if our pyromaniac finds it too tempting to resist. And again, hope like heck that no innocent civilians happen to wander in when it gets set on fire. Returning back to `Would Dishwasher!Dumbledore and Dishwasher!Snape conspire to assassinate Karkaroff?' On the evidence so far ? no. They haven't conspired to kill anyone. Any deaths have been caused by Voldemort, or, importantly, have been agreed as necessary by the people themselves (the Flamels). The death of Cedric was one of those `dammit, he wasn't even supposed to *be* there' events that unfortunately happen in a shooting war. And it is a shooting war. It has been since Voldemort tried to steal the Stone. Dumbledore did not start the fire ? Voldemort did. Dumbledore has not created this war. Voldemort has. Dumbledore, so far, has not killed anyone. Voldemort killed them. By choice. What Dumbledore is doing is trying to manoeuvre Voldemort into a position where he can be destroyed. Which is dangerous, yes. Because Voldemort is dangerous. ********************************************************************* The Pipsqueak stops talking (finally!), and takes another swig of her tea. Cindy is just finishing off a stirring rendition of `Be Prepared' from The Lion King [for those who don't do musicals: it's the song where the evil Scar plans the coup to murder his brother King Mufasa]. Pipsqueak shouts out: "HEY! Cindy!" "What?" "Why Karkaroff?" "Whaddya mean, why Karkaroff?" says Cindy. " Isn't Snape assassinating someone bangy enough for you?" "Assassinating Karkaroff isn't bangy. There's a much better alternative, much more in character for both Snape and Dumbledore, and it's even been nicely foreshadowed in PS/SS". Cindy wanders over, and stands in front of the Pipsqueak, swaying slightly. "Who got assassinated in PS/SS?" The Pipsqueak grins. "No one. That's the point. But Nicolas and Perenelle Flamel AGREED that it was necessary for them to die." Cindy fixes a slightly bloodshot eye on the Pipsqueak. After some difficulty focussing, she fixes the other bloodshot eye on the Pipsqueak instead. "I want bang. Big, big bang. Polite little chats where people agree it's `all for the best' don't just do it for me." The Pipsqueak grins an even wider grin. "Ah, but Cindy. HOW is Snape going to persuade Voldemort to take him back? Everyone's nicely convinced Snape hates Harry, which is good convincing DE material, but I really don't think Dumbledore's master plan includes Snape handing Voldemort the head of Harry Potter." "So?" says Cindy. "Look around you, Junior. The FEATHERBOA'S are flying here. Blood is what we want. Blood, and bangs, and great big shocks." "Well, whose death would really, really convince Voldemort that Snape was on HIS side? Without any shadow of doubt? A death that Snape and Dumbledore would *know* that the victim had agreed to as being for the ultimate good? " The Pipsqueak paused dramatically. "Ah, Cindy. You missed it. The chance for the biggest bang of all. NOT Karkaroff, no. The head Snape is going to deliver to Voldemort [probably gift-wrapped], the head that is going to convince Voldemort beyond any possible doubt that Snape is on his side, the head that is going to plant BlownSpy!Snape right back in the trusted DE circle, ready to help Harry Potter defeat Voldemort is Dumbledore's." And won't *that* be a bang. Pip!Squeak [Anyone for a cigarette?] [1] See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40476 for an explanation of why accepting a cigarette from a Safe House inhabitant is a really, really bad idea. Hypothetic Alley: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hypotheticalley.html Inish Alley: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 The DISHWASHER has two major posts http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39662 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40044 A summary post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39854 plus nearly two hundred posts arguing for and against it. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40421 for the introductory Safe House post. From heidi at barefootpuppets.com Fri Nov 22 01:48:58 2002 From: heidi at barefootpuppets.com (barefootpuppets) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 01:48:58 -0000 Subject: Polyjuice Potion!Dumbledore, Harry's blood, relatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46946 Laura wrote: > When Harry said that V-mort put some of his (Harry's) blood into him > (V-mort), DD got a gleam in his eye. What if using Harry's blood > provides some kind of downfall for V-mort? What if it makes him > mortal again? Or gives Harry some kind of power'advantage over him? > > I like this a lot better than the idea that DD is evil... Yep. This is where I stand, too. JKR said that there is something very pivotal in Book 4 and I believe that V-mort using Harry's blood is a big part of that. The fact that we have just NOW discovered something about "special protection" for Harry while he is in the care of his relatives...we do NOT know the exact details of this "old magic" that protects Harry. Questions: What does the spell protecting Harry really entail? Does it mean "blood relatives?" Is V-mort, perhaps, a blood-relative of Harry's now? And what, exactly, is the nature of this protection? Hmmmmm... Heidi R. From judyshapiro at directvinternet.com Fri Nov 22 02:03:33 2002 From: judyshapiro at directvinternet.com (Judy) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 02:03:33 -0000 Subject: TBAY -- The last temptation of Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46947 "What new place is this?" Judy wondered. She looked around at the various people engaged in vigorous discussion. Was that *Avery*, sitting hunched over in the corner? Then she spied George and his sister Diana, filling glasses and washing dishes. "I seem to have materialized in George's Tavern, " Judy thought. "Someone must have been discussing my theories, causing me to accidentally switch universes." Just then, the door burst open. A passerby was being hauled in off the street. The passerby looked familiar -- it was Wendy, who had moved into the area recently. Judy watched as Wendy was interrogated about her Snapetheories. "If people keep getting dragged in here," Judy thought, "the Tavern is going to become a very crowded place." Judy ordered a cup of tea, and sat down at an empty table. This would be a good opportunity to catch up with the latest theories proposed by other Snape researchers. Judy cupped her hand behind her ear and listened intently, but it was impossible to hear anything over the loudly slurred words to "Jean Valjean" that were coming from a dimly-lit figure dancing on top of the bar. Fortunately, the singer soon stopped dancing and climbed off the bar, saying, "Enough entertainment for now. I've got a new theory, and boy, does it bang." Judy looked closely at the formerly dancing figure. It was Captain Cindy, the famous originator of the noted "Big Bang" theory. Cindy said, "I think that Snape could only return to Voldemort if Snape did something Big to prove that he was truly loyal to Voldemort." Judy shook her head. She knew that Voldemort -- or "Lord Phoenix Tears", as she liked to call him -- could be easily led around by his enormous ego. Snape could get back into his good graces by pretending to have been fooling Dumbledore all along. Judy had intended to just sit quietly and listen, but before she knew it, she found words coming out of her mouth: "Voldemort, being an Evil Overlord and all, doesn't want to believe that Snape actually was spying on him and is quite prepared to take Snape's word for it. Evil Overlords are just like that sometimes. Also, Voldemort believes he can infallibly detect lies, and Snape may have a potion that enhances his persuasiveness." She paused for minute to regain her self of self-control, and then continued. "So, it's likely, although not 100% guaranteed, that Voldemort will take him back instead of killing him." Just then, a disembodied female voice echoed from somewhere near the ceiling: "I think we are missing a key character witness for the theory that Snape is still seen as a DE by those from the Dark Side. Step up Lucius Malfoy and his odious little son Draco 'my dad would vote you head master of Hogwarts, you're the best teacher here' Malfoy. Would Voldemort's slippery friend really let his precious son be taught by a traitor?" The disembodied voice made most of the bar patrons start in shock, but Judy retained her, well, Serenity. She said, "Don't worry everybody, there's nothing to it! Um, I mean, that's just "Theresnothingtoit", who is unfortunately trapped in another dimension -- some university or other, I think. I'd like to point out that Theresnothingtoit has an excellent point. Although we never see Lucius and Snape together in canon, it's clear from Draco's behavior that Snape is still seen as a Death Eater by Lucius. If Lucius is willing to see Snape as Death eater, why shouldn't Voldemort?" Captain Cindy wasn't buying any of it. "Voldemort *knows* Snape betrayed him and *knows* that Snape has been working with Dumbledore for over a decade, and is just going to assume that Snape can be trusted back in Voldemort's inner circle? The Evil Overlord character has to make some mistakes so that the hero can win, but the author can't take it too far. The readers will never accept Sucker!Voldemort." Eagerly, Cindy continued. "Voldemort has never willfully disregarded a known risk, has he? Oh, he forgets stuff. And he makes mistakes due to incomplete information, like not knowing about the wand cores or Lily's ancient magic. But I can't think of an instance where Voldemort knew about a major risk and just dismissed it out of hand." Judy stroked her chin thoughtfully. "I would say that the readers have *already* accepted Sucker!Voldemort. What sort of competent wizard has four chances to kill a little kid, and flubs them all? However, I agree that Voldemort may ask for proof of Snape's loyalty, most likely by asking Snape to assassinate someone." "You do?" Cindy was shocked. "Certainly, why *not* send Snape on a some horrible mission? It's no skin off of Voldemort's teeth, er, fangs. He's said that his erstwhile followers will have to make up for not helping him during the long years that he was VaporMort. He made Peter prove his loyalty by cutting off his own hand. Yes, Voldemort will make Snape do something awful, but not necessarily because he thinks Snape was truly a traitor. He'll make Snape do something awful because he's Voldemort. Making people do awful things is what Voldemort does for a living -- I mean, to the extent that Voldemort is really alive, that is." "But, I expected to hear objections," Cindy said. "Like, `Snape wouldn't do such a thing ? he was a *nice* DE.'" "Well," said Judy, "although Snape is virtually perfect, he still sometimes has to do unpleasant things for the greater good. So, he'll assassinate someone if he has to." Just then, the sound of moaning was heard outside the Tavern. "Noo! It's too dangerous for him! No, please, no!!!!" Judy opened the door, and pulled in the sobbing stranger. "Who are you, and why is the matter?" she asked gently. "My name is Monika, and I'm worried about Snape. Spying for Voldemort is just too dangerous. I don't want Snape to die!" "Well," Judy said, "You might be relieved by my theory of the arbitrary nature of danger in the Potterverse. I hypothesize that things are dangerous in the Potterverse if and only if JKR says they are. A bare-handed Harry can face a powerful, armed older wizard who has a basilisk on his side and get only a temporary scratch, but Cedric Diggory just touches the Triwizard Trophy and ends up dead. Spying on Voldemort isn't necessarily dangerous, because there's no objective sense in which any activity in the Potterverse is dangerous. I do fear that Snape's redemption will involve sacrificing his life, but I'm fairly confident that it won't happen until Book 7. At the rate JKR is going, we may get to theorize about our beloved Snape for decades." Judy's sereneness seemed to calm this newcomer. She gave Monika a nice hot cup of tea, and returned to her conversation with Cindy. "Hmm," said Cindy, "it would be better if you thought Voldemort wouldn't trust Snape without a Bang. But, at least we both believe that Voldemort is likely to ask Snape to do something horrible. That will do to be getting on with. The only question is, what will Voldemort have Snape do?" She paused for moment. "I seem to have three variants right here. First, there is the 'Karkaroff's Head On A Stake' variant. Snape and Dumbledore have hatched a can't-miss plan to absolutely insure Snape's welcome back into the DE fold. Snape apparates straight to Voldemort's lair clutching two things in his slimy hands to prove his loyalty beyond question -- Karkaroff's wand and Karkaroff's *head.*" "Ouch!" Judy yelled. "That Bangs too much -- my ears are ringing! Snape is supposed to be a good guy, after all." "OK," said Cindy, "so let's consider the next variant -- Snape doesn't kill Karkaroff himself. I mean, where's the fun in that? No, instead there's the 'Bring Him In Alive' variant. Snape apprehends Karkaroff and brings him to Voldemort alive -- furs and all." "No, that's not much better," Judy said. Cindy thought for a moment. "Well, there is the safest Assassin!Snape variant for those with weak stomachs -- the traditional 'The Devil Made Me Do It' variant. Snape goes to Voldemort, who sends him after Karkaroff *or else,* so Snape -- deeply conflicted and racked with guilt -- does what he must do." "Ah," said Judy. "Snape, deeply conflicted and racked with guilt, doing what he must do! That's the Snape we all know and love. I mean, we do all love him, right? RIGHT?" Monika looked up from her tea. "Of course we all love Snape! Who's more lovable in all of HP universe?!" "So, then, " said Cindy. "It's all settled. Snape will go kill Karkaroff...." Just then, a shadow seemed to pass over the bar, and Judy felt a faint breeze. She blinked. When she opened her eyes, Pippin was standing in front of her. "That's odd," Judy thought. "I don't remember Pippin being here." "Yes, Snape will be sent to assassinate someone," said Pippin, sipping casually from a glass of mysterious red liquid, "but I don't believe it will be Karkaroff. Instead, Karkaroff will be captured, and MacNair will get to kill him in some nasty, messy and, er, interesting way. Snape will have to watch, helpless, while his old pal (lover?) Karkaroff screams and begs him to help, and Harry gets to see it all via Scar-o-Vision." "Well, that sounds plausible enough," Judy said. "But, if not Karkaroff, then who do you expect will be Snape's victim?" "Ah, don't forget that Voldemort plans to court the Dementors!" Pippin gestured with her glass, and Judy noted that *whatever* the liquid was, it seemed to be forming clots. "But what has Voldemort got now that can compare with the live-in snack bar they've got at Azkaban? Why should the D-men think Voldemort can deliver, that he's stronger than the Ministry? Why indeed, unless he delivers to them the one thing that the Ministry has so far failed to provide...their lawful prey, the one prisoner who got away." Pippin paused for dramatic emphasis. "Snape is going after Sirius," she said. Judy looked at the ground for a moment, lost in thought. "That would certainly give Snape a dilemma, but...." Her voice faltered -- Pippin had vanished! But before Judy could determine where Pippin had gone, Eileen rushed up, carrying a decanter. "Brandy?" Eileen asked, holding out a snifter. "No, thank you," Judy said. "I hear it makes one want to wear FEATHERBOAS, and that just isn't me. I'm an animal lover, after all." "Ah yes," said Eileen, pulling her own FEATHERBOAS more closely around her, "Foaming Enthusiasts of Ambush, Torture, and Hostility, Embracing Really Bloodthirsty Operations and Savagery. I want blood on Snape's hands. I like Sadist!Snape because it makes him so much more interesting, so compelling." Judy looked into Eileen pale face and glittering eyes. It was only Judy's detached, serene nature than kept her from backing away from Eileen. Eileen seemed not to notice the concerned look on Judy's face, and plunged on. "If we say that Snape was never truly evil, then we lose the power of his character. It's all about... It's all about Redemption! Otherwise, we have a universe where Snape only is redeemed because he always was better than the others!" Somewhere from the crowd, someone said, "Snape is going to be tempted to return to the dark side! I just know it." Judy looked around, but couldn't tell who had spoken. Diana strolled over from the bar, and chimed in. "That's right. Snape *enjoyed* torturing people when he was a Death Eater. He wasn't baking cakes for the next DE Bring and Buy sale, or circulating houses with 'Support Your Local Evil Overlord' campaign leaflets now, was he?" Judy looked doubtful. "I don't believe that Snape was ever as evil as you say, Diana and Eileen. In fact, I have no problem with the idea that Snape was always better than the other Death Eaters." "Neither do I!" said Monika. Judy shot her a grateful look. "If Snape truly enjoyed torturing others, he simply wouldn't be redeemable," Judy continued. "Normal people don't go around inflicting pain 'just for fun.' A person who does that is a severe sociopath. Snape lacks the qualities of a sociopath -- an ability to charm others, a lack of introspection, a desire for action, a lack of remorse for hurting others, poor impulse control, an inability to learn from one's mistakes. Now, Sirius on the other hand...." her voice trailed off. "Er, where was I? Oh, yes, Snape is not a sociopath. I agree that he must have done *something* evil, or else he wouldn't need redemption. But, that doesn't mean he's like Lucius, enjoying torturing others. Instead, I think my dear Severus acted out of bitterness, out of his feeling of persecution. The prank made him think that the Marauders wanted him dead, and he thought that Dumbledore-- yes, Dumbledore -- was colluding with them. So, he joined Dumbledore's enemy in an attempt to seek protection and revenge. But, he never found attacking innocent people to be *fun*." "However," Judy added thoughtfully. "There is no question -- Snape does not consider Sirius to be innocent. If Voldemort sends him after Sirius, Snape will *want* to kill Sirius. Snape will be tempted to return to the Dark Side. It's angsty, and Snape is nothing if not an angst collector. Yes, Snape will be tempted to return to the side of evil. I like it." Judy sat down and opened her notebook, her quill moving furiously. As she made notes, Wendy strode up. "Judy, I agree with your idea that Voldemort will accept Snape back," she said. "But maybe it's for *personal* reasons. Maybe Voldemort has a vested interest in wanting to believe Snape couldn't have betrayed him because Snape was always one of his very *favourites*. I won't go so far as to credit Voldemort with actual feelings of love, but maybe as close to that as an Evil Overlord can get. He's just *fond* of Snape in a very particular way and would do just about anything to believe that Snape couldn't possibly have betrayed him." Judy leaped up and gasped in shock. A Voldemort/Snape shipper in the Tavern? Then slowly, she sat back down. "This is my kind of place," she said. ~~ Judy Serenity, who is kind of weirded out by the idea of a Voldemort/Snape ship and doesn't think it's likely in canon, but who thinks Snape being re-tempted by the Dark Side is very plausible *********** Hypothetic Alley: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hypotheticalley.html Inish Alley: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/databa se?method=reportRows&tbl=13 From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Fri Nov 22 01:42:21 2002 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 01:42:21 -0000 Subject: Minerva & Sybill : Sister Sister?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46948 Maybe I'm spending too much time around the Greek Mythology section of the Library, but I was reading the "HPFGU Fantastic posts" ON McGonagall and happened about the section on shipping. I thought: Sybill. Minerva. Both names are in the mythological vein Could they be sisters? Given that the sisters ( Lily/Petunia/ (Narcissa??) and Parvati/Padma) share flowers as a name source and ever-so-popular the "Name-the-Weasley" game, JKR seems to keep fmailies ordered under a certain name scheme. Maybe they're muggle-born/half-blood/Squib-children, wouldn't it make Minerva all the more flustered when her little sister gets into Hogwarts and has the ever-so questionable ( but great fun at dinner parties)(or not, if you're not Sybill) talent of seeing. Then she goes on and gets a job at Hogwarts with one lucky prophecy when Minerva might have to work and work at refining her Animagus skills. Or other way around... Big sister Sybill is used to getting special attention for being the witch of the family, but really can't do much more than see grimms in tea leaves. Along comes little Minerva, transfiguring teacups during the holidays, who eventually learns to perform parlor trick ( "...awww look at the kitty..." "Didn't we see that exact cat mewling outside of Snape's door last night??...") and comes to surpass Sybill to be next in line is the Hogwarts future headmaster hierarchy ( despite the fact that Sybill has one prophecy under her belt and many more years of seniority over Minerva. SophineClaire---- From ashfae at technicaldetails.org Fri Nov 22 01:05:42 2002 From: ashfae at technicaldetails.org (Ashfae) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:05:42 -0700 (MST) Subject: Winky's Failture and Why Slytherins Should Stay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46949 > From: lucky_kari > > Winky had failed Crouch. His wife had failed him. As I said before, > they both killed him. His wife by persuading him to rescue their son. > Winky by being careless enough to let Bertha Jorkins find out about it. Ah, thank you, I had also forgotten about that. So really, the affair at the Quidditch World Cup is the *second* time Winky fails in her task. Barty Jr. is Winky's responsibility; he is under the Imperius Curse, yes, but Winky remains his bodyguard. Her duty is not only to take care of him, but to ensure that he remains under control and his existance a secret. > Winky isn't tragic because she's innocent. She's tragic, because she's > as messed up as any member of that family. > Agreed! Bartemius Crouch Sr. has always struck me as one of the most tragic figures in the books thus far. I hope Percy learns something from Crouch's mistakes, even if he never knows the full story. Regarding Slytherins, and why they haven't been chucked out of Hogwarts...*raises sleeve to do battle* Slytherins are NOT necessarily evil, any more than Gryffindors are necessarily good or Ravenclaws necessarily indifferent to morality. People who end up in Slytherin House value cunning and ambition above other virtues. People who are excessively ambitious are more likely to do evil than people who value, say, honesty or courage. BUT someone who is ambitious is not necessarily evil; witness Percy and Crouch Sr. The fact that Slytherin has turned out more evil wizards than any other makes logical sense, but the solution to this is not to get rid of all the Slytherins; that would be a great injustice to those who are ambitious but not dark wizards. As an example, take Marcus Flint. Is he ambitious? Seems so; you don't get to be Quidditch Captain by sitting around, particularly in Slytherin House. Does he break rules in order to achieve his victory? Yes, or at the very least he bends them a great deal. Do we like him? Aside from a few particular fangirls, no. Does all this make him evil? Certainly not. A few Quidditch fowls are not equivalent to the Cruciatus Curse. Flint is not perhaps the best argument to use, but my point is that being an evil dark wizard does not necessarily follow upon being a Slytherin. It is just as possible that someone from another house could turn out dark; witness Peter Pettigrew. Or for that matter, Ravenclaws, who value intelligence above all else; does this mean they value intelligence above morality? Hufflepuffs are loyal and hardworking--to serve what cause? For Slytherins as for everyone else, it's their choices that make them who they are. Ambition in and of itself is not an evil trait; it's how you act on your ambition that matters. *gets off of soapbox* Ashfae From vincentjh at yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 02:38:27 2002 From: vincentjh at yahoo.com (vincentjh) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 02:38:27 -0000 Subject: The teaser words on JKR's note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46950 Mike P. wrote: > Does this mean that Ron is about to take Wood's place on the > Quidditch team? If he does, this could very weel be the shot at > glory that Ron has been craving for so long. > > What does anyone else think? I'm now concinved that there has is a secret broom cupboard built by Gryffindor. And it's Ron's turn to open it. On a more serious note, I wonder if Dombledore would get sacked. It may tie back to his statement in CoS that he'd never really leave as long as people are still loyal to him. Just a wild guess. VJH From susannahlm at yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 03:39:17 2002 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (susannahlm) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 03:39:17 -0000 Subject: TBAY: SoulsuckedSaboteur!Snape(WAS Assasin!Snape Meets Saboteur!Snape) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46951 This is some party. Now that all the Snape theorists have a room to themselves, any lingering reluctance about disturbing the peace has completely vanished. The drinks are coming faster, the theories are getting wilder, and Cindy is standing on the table with Cabaret!Snape, singing _Les Miserables_. Derannimer is standing with her drink, a yellow flag (George was kind enough to set some out) tucked neatly away in case of future need, talking to Charis Julia. Or trying to anyway. It's getting pretty loud in here. >"Deal with the Devil," Charis Julia is saying, in reply to >Derannimer's suggestion. "Oooh, yes, this is sooo right! That's why >Dumbledore "must" ask Snape to do this. . . that's why Snape's the >only one who could ever take on this job, the only hope Dumbledore's >side has of ridding Azkaban of it's present guards without Fudge's >consent." Derannimer thinks about this for a minute. She *had* actually considered this point, briefly. It *would* be simpler to deal with Dementors if you weren't affected by them in the usual way. Her own theory actually fits with Charis Julia's quite nicely. Which is odd, really, because. . . "Um, Charis Julia," she says, hesitating slightly. "I mean, you've been so nice and everything--" Derannimer waves her drink in explanation--"but. . . I'm not quite sure about Saboteur!Snape. "But I'm ready to be convinced," she adds quickly. "Hang on a minute," says Charis Julia. She disappears into the crowd. A minute later she is back, with a refill. If she has to defend this theory *again*, she's certainly going to need one. "Right, well," Charis Julia begins. "Saboteur!Snape. Well, first of all, we *really* do need an alternative to Snape the Spy. >Even if I could consider it possible that >Voldemort would ever take back Snape no matter what Snape did to >prove his loyalty (which I don't), I still wouldn't like this as a >plot twist. It's way less than simple. It's obvious. After all, even >the most elementary, ordinary, non?obsessive readers will have >automatically picked up on that one." "It's even worse than that," Derannimer interrupts. "*Harry* has picked up on that one. GOF, p. 721 'Snape had turned spy against Voldemort, "at great personal risk." Was that the job he had taken up again?' "Nah." Derannimer shakes her head. "Although I do find Double-O-Sevi a deeply *attractive* idea, the fact that Harry actually thinks of it also renders it deeply *unlikely*. If Snape was really going back as a spy, JKR would never have let Harry ponder the notion, and certainly not so prominently. I'm all with you here; Snape the Spy is a red herring. So we *do* need another theory. But I'm not so sure that Saboteur!Snape is--" "But what about the parallelism?" Charis Julia resumes. "The Dementor mission is explicitly linked to the Giant mission. We've seen Dumbledore step to take care of the one; what if he's also taken moves to address the other." "Oh I know," says Derannimer. "I agree with everything you've been saying about Saboteur!Snape--we need a new theory, it's got parallelism, Dumbledore would never send Snape out to assassinate somebody--I agree with all that. But I've got a couple of other problems with it. "The first is, and I kind of hate to say this, but it's hard to make it Bang. No--" Derannimer hastily cuts off Charis Julia's angry exclamation-- "No, I'm not echoing Cindy's 'conjugal visits for the Lestranges'; I simply mean that it's hard to make a scene Bang when you can't *see* it. In the case of Snape the Spy, that's easy enough to arrange; Harry could see the Death Eaters with his scar (scar visions may grow more frequent anyway, now that Voldemort's back); or he could get captured by the DE's and Snape could have to torture and/or free him from prison, or whatever. But if Snape's sans Voldemort, in Azkaban, it gets really quite hard to work that out. And I don't see how you can have Bang from a distance, second-hand Bang, so to speak." "Hmmm. . . yeah," replied Charis Julia. "It is hard to get Harry to witness what's going on in Azka--" "HOLD IT!" Derannimer shouts. "I've just had a flash of blinding inspiration!" Charis Julia looks at her somewhat skeptically. Derannimer blushes. "I've just had an idea, at any rate. I don't--" she looks around somewhat guiltily-- "I don't actually know if this sort of thing is *allowed* here, but. . . "JKR has said in intreviews that in OOP, Harry will 'go into a whole new area, physically, an area you've never seen before, a magical world.' Now the quote is somewhat ambiguous; does she mean a new kind of magical world (EmbracedbytheLight!Harry?) or a new *area* of the WW that we already know? The wording may also be iffy--but I got that quote from the Lexicon, so it's probably pretty accurate. "But anyway, JKR has said that Harry's going to go somewhere he hasn't been yet. "And he sure hasn't gone to Azkaban yet. "What do you think?" Charis Julia blinks for a minute. "I'm not entirely sure," she confesses. "I'll have to think about it." "Oh, sure," says Derannimer. "But at any rate, if Harry somehow got there, then he could see Snape. And as long as we can see Saboteur! Snape at work, then I don't have a problem with the Bang at all. "Not that I'm an expert," she adds, glancing at Cindy, now dancing on the table. Derannimer (who did have a second objection, but may save it for another post) From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Fri Nov 22 03:42:12 2002 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 03:42:12 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Assassin!Snape Meets Saboteur!Snape (WAS Saboteur!Snape's Next Mission) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46952 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "charisjulia" wrote: > > * * > > Derannimer wrote: > > >I think that, in order to become a Death Eater, you have to bind > >yourself to Lord Voldemort, in an arrangement whereby he gives you nifty extra powers, and you give him *you*: your service, possibly your powers to some degree (which could only add to his strength), > >and, naturally (this is a "deal with the devil", after all) your > >actual soul. This is a "binding magical contract;" it cannot be > >broken, no matter how much you repent, no matter how badly you > >want to renege--you keep your nifty powers, and Lord Voldemort > > keeps your soul. Your body, and your intellect, and (obviously) your will can go on their merry way, but some fairly substantial part of you splits off from the rest and stays with Voldemort. > > > Derannimer trails off nervously. Charis Julia is standing stock still > SophineClaire, who had been sipping on a Virgin Pina Colada ( despite repeated offers from George to let him "Spice it up"), looks up from her notes on Vampires and speaks up. " I think I can find the right can(n)on for this!" SHe sifts through her bookbag, and next to her Psychology texts finds a small little can(n)on labelled 'Delerium' * It's the title of this dreadful, but somewhat intriging B-Movie about the same sort of subject, only everyone shares their abilities with the community with the exception of one or two "Puppet masters"* "If we take this theory and place it in the Graveyard scene of GOF. Here is Pettigrew, a powerful ( He is an animagus) wizard but somewhat incompetent (from my biased point of view and the opinion of other teachers in POA) in the other forms of magic. How oculd he, even with assistance from Voldemort, brew that oh-so-necessary potion to bring voldemort back into human-like physical form.?" "Sounds like fairly complicated stuff. Out of Pettigrew's league, but not out of Snape's." Sophineclaire noticed she had a couple of heads turned to her direction and decided to continue, without the help of alcohol. "Does your approach involve any Banginess?" George asked , flashing his best smile and trying to spike Sophine's drink with a flask of nettlewine. "Not so fast Cassanova! You might be charged with serving to minors here." George replaced the flask to it's place behind the bar rather dejectedly "And besides George, we all know Cindy is the determiner of all things Bangy, lets wait till she gets her second wind. " "There are two or three variants one can take, depending on how much you like Snape, and in no specific order of Banginess: Variant the first: "What makes you think Snape was so smart anyways?" As far as we know (Via Sirius) Snape was, academically speakings, knew more curses than most seventh years, interested in the Dark Arts and we all assume he was a star a potions ( or at least ranked up there). What if that was it?. He might have scraped by in herbology, been dismal in charms and abysmal in ancient runes. What would make this sad-sack so special to Voldemort when there might have been several more qualified people looking for a position in the inner circle? Snape's potion skills might have worked in his favoured. By giving this skill to the DeathEaters, he would gain back 8, 10, or 12-fold. All of a sudden, this Neville Longbottom has more power than he knows what to do with. A patronus here, a bundle of ropes there, all fun and games at first but it would get kind of boring after awhile. But..... Variant the second: "Snape is uber-competent, I'll give you that. But could he have gone in blindly?" "Are you sure you don't want me..." "No George, I'm on a roll..." "That's what I'm worried about" Snape had a reputation at Hogwarts from what book 3 and book 4 purports. From the Sirius Perspective, Snape was slimy and other unfriendly adjectives. He was sneaky and sly, an overall nasty guy. Lollipops is a flop, because even Lily would want him, not!. Looking through past HPFGU logs, running with SLytherins does not encompass morning jogs. So if popularity was the key, did Snape follow these foulweather friends blindly? Here are a group of Kids (Avery, Lestrange,) that Snape has know for a good portion of his life ( duration of friendship or if it was even firendship at all is unknown). They have the same backgrounds, same interests, same predjudices, Voldemort seems to be the way to go. Somehow, Snape is deluded about Voldemort's true aims and practices and is somewhat secluded from all of the main action because his particular skill requires solitude and time. While he slaves in the basement of Malfoy manner on a polyjuice potion or some sort of effective household cleaner for Narcissa ( " Oh you know how blood stains are on Persian rugs") The DE's working the field discover a new found or improved ability to brew some of the more particularly nasty potions that are in Snape's memory bank. Snape, being the the epitome of wizarding skill, senses no difference in power, trudges away cleaning Voldemort's Dirty Linens. Then there is this big DE hoe-down in Hyde Park one night. It could be bad and they need someone to whip up a few healing potions on the spot if need be. So SNape, his skin a little more sallow and teeth a little more yellow, is invited to come along since most of the field workers will be, well, 'working'. FOr the first time, he sees just what is going on and....... Where V.1 and V.2 leave off depends on the amount of Disgust/shame/ redemption worthy moments you want to give this guy. V.1 relies heavily on SNape's desire for acknowledgement and less on admirable qualities. Maybe he got annoyed with the other DE's being praised for this potion or that when they actually came from his abilities. Maybe he was afraid that he would lose these new found abilities if he publically left VD and choose to spy of DD under cover. V.2 goes more along the lines of redeemable!Snape. More bangy than the last and requires Snape to be a little more stupid than cannon would make us assume ( personally, I think this moment was the growing-up experience for Snape, to use very understated terms. I do not think that 17y/o SNape had the knowledge or dare I say it, "Maturity' of 35y/o Snape) and a little more compassionate. Snape is disgusted by what he sees. His 'friends', the people 'he trusts', grossly misusing the skills he has so carefully honed to torture and kill muggles in the most painful way possible. God it's a shock, how could he be so stupid.... Either way, that mark, that connection has lasting effects. In the Variant one stance, since half of his fellow DE's are in jail an therefore not using their magic, Snape is free to their power. Using it while they wither in Azkaban. Years of actual inactivity in prison but yet, maybe the LeStranges are listing what charms Severus has casted during their incarceration using their abilities... Variant 2 leaves Snape permanently in doubt, whether the effectiveness of his charms or transfigurations are actually due to his sole effort or derived from one of his old classmates. To counteract this, he dismisses wandwaving and devotes himeself, abeit sadly, to Potions and the dark arts, the gifts he has always had. * Some would counter with the rope speels that Snape casts here and there but it has been discussed that Curses are something that inhibit the person it is being cast on. I believe those rope spells are a form of hexes/curses* SophineClaire looks around the bar, a few nods are in her direction, and there is a muttering of "is it bangy though? is it really bangy enough..." George leans over the bar "That is quite mouthful and if you can back it up more, you can stay but if you're not going to purchase anymore beverages, I'll have to ask you to leave." Sophine smiles sweetly at George, polishes her "Snape: My Byronic Superhero" badge and says " Dear George, get me two Uri Gellars, I do believe I have my fake I.D. with me" SophineClaire From rubngood2 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 04:00:54 2002 From: rubngood2 at yahoo.com (kathy) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 04:00:54 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46953 Hi all. I'm new to the group, I'm so glad that I found it. Have you discussed Crookshanks? I've been wondering if it's possible that he's really an animagus? --Kathy From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Nov 22 04:21:30 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 04:21:30 -0000 Subject: TBAY-FILK - One Day More at the Royal George In-Reply-To: <9.2c0c9ec.2b0ecd0d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46954 Cindy: One day more, Another day, another cracked theory. This never ending road to OotP These yellow flags that threaten me Will surely be my destiny One day more... Wendy: I did not CARP until today, How can I CARP when we are flodded? Cindy: One day more... Wendy and TheresNothingToIt: Tomorrow closes Theory Bay And yet our theories have just budded. Cindy: One more day all on my own Wendy and TheresNothingToIt: Will we ever sail again? Cindy: One more day with them not caring Wendy and TheresNothingToIt: I was born to sail the Bay, Cindy: What a BANG I could have shown, Wendy and TheresNothingToIt: And I swear I'll always stay! Cindy: But they never see it there... Elkins: One more day before the storm! Eileen: Do I follow where it blows? Elkins: In the streets and o'er the waters! Eileen: Shall I join that Safe House there? Elkins: When our boats begin to sink, Eileen: Do I leave or do I dare? Elkins: Will you take your place and swim? All: The time is now. The pub is here. Cindy: One day more! Charis Julia: One more day until destruction, Cindy's theory is a dud! I will watch these FEATHERBOAS, They will drown themselves in blood! Cindy: One day more! Pip and Grey Wolf: Watch'm run amuck, Correct'm when they fail, Never know your luck When there's a TBAY sail, Here little note Here a little word, Most of them are tipsy, And their speech is slurred! Judy Serenity: One day to some new Snape canon Raise your glass now, everyone! Every Snapefan drink with me! Everyone: Every Snapefan drink with me! There's a new book in the writing. There's new book almost done! Do you hear the CARPers singing? Pippin: I still can see Vampiracy! Cindy: One day more! Wendy and TheresNothingToIt: We did not CARP until today... Cindy: One more theory left alone! Wendy and TheresNothingToIt: And yet today was something splendid. George: I will spy on these BIG BANGERS I will hound them where they go I will spoil their little secrets, I'll discount the things they know. Cindy: One day more! Eloise: Death Eaters aren't nice, Snape wasn't as well. He did something awful, As the book will tell. Marina: One more day until Redemption, On completely Georgian terms, We'll be ready with our cameras As we watch how Cindy squirms. Cindy: Tomorrow still is far away, Tomorrow is the judgement day All: Tomorrow we'll discover What our J. K. Rowling has in store! One day more One more day One day more! ------------------------------------------------ >From the 2002 Les Miserables Original TBAY Cast Recording Eileen From hearlihy.3 at wright.edu Fri Nov 22 04:20:29 2002 From: hearlihy.3 at wright.edu (ask me) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 04:20:29 -0000 Subject: Gleam in Dumbledore's Eye- theory that may or may not have been discussed before Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46955 Ok, we all know that there was a gleam in Dumbledore's eye at the end of GoF. I also know that it's been debated endlessly (at least in a.f.h-p) and that people are tired of it, but I have a theory that I've never seen before (but just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not out there). At the end of PoA (Ch. 22 to be exact) Harry and Dumbledore have the following exchange: "But?I stopped Sirius and Professor Lupin from killing Pettigrew! That makes it my fault if Voldemort comes back!" "It does not," said Dumbledore quietly. "Hasn't your experience with the Time-Turner taught you anything, Harry? The consequences of our actions are always so complicated, so diverse, that predicting the future is a very difficult business indeed... Professor Trelawney, bless her, is living proof of that... You did a very noble thing, in saving Pettigrew's life." "But if he helps Voldemort back to power "Pettigrew owes his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your debt... When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them... and I'm much mistaken if Voldemort wants his servant in the debt of Harry Potter." "I don't want a connection with Pettigrew!" said Harry. "He betrayed my parents!" "This is magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable, Harry. But trust me... the time may come when you will be very glad you saved Pettigrew's life." This makes me think that there is a gleam in Dumbledore's eye, not because Voldemort used Harry's blood, but because he used Peter's arm. Maybe Harry has some sort of protection deeper even than his mother's sacrifice. Maybe, even though Voldemort can now touch Harry he can't kill him because he is now in Harry's debt through Peter. I know it's probably been said before but I've never seen it so I thought I'd post my two cents. -Casey From timregan at microsoft.com Fri Nov 22 04:35:08 2002 From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 04:35:08 -0000 Subject: Slytherin House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46956 Hi All, --- Ashfae wrote: > Slytherins are NOT necessarily > evil, any more than Gryffindors are necessarily good or Ravenclaws > necessarily indifferent to morality. People who end up in Slytherin House > value cunning and ambition above other virtues. People who are excessively > ambitious are more likely to do evil than people who value, say, honesty > or courage. BUT someone who is ambitious is not necessarily evil I agree. If the line from Hagrid is true "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin." (PS, UK paperback, p. 61/62) then Sirius Black was from Slytherin. Now we know (as Hagrid didn't) that Sirius is lovely, not bad. (This has been discussed loads on the list before). And Dumbledore's characterization of Slytherin's hand picked students: "resourcefulness determination a certain disregard for rules" (CoS, UK paperback, p. 245) sounds positive. But even if we decided that Slytherin's were dangerous, where would we want them educated? The parents of key Slytherins already considered Durmstrang instead of Hogwarts due to their Dark Arts focus ("Father actually considered sending me to Durmstrang [ ]", Draco, GoF, UK Paperback, p.147). It reminds me of the allies' treatment of Germany after World War One - and look where that lead. I think it is much better to embrace and educate the Slytherins in the Hogwarts' way than risk their education elsewhere. There are some problems with this, in that it relies on Dumbledore and the Hogwarts' governors employing teachers who will try to instill Dumbledore's values in the students. Snape and Lockhart don't seem good examples. But Dumbledore may have had little choice for his DADA teacher, and there's a trade off between a professor who is good at teaching, and one who is brilliant at the subject being taught. Snape is certainly brilliant at potions. However, re-reading the original post: --- "wittchway" wrote: > The question was why keep Slytherin house around? Couldn't the school > work just as well with three houses? Wouldn't the sorting hat pull > other strengths the students had and place them appropriatly? That's a different question. We could still keep the students with Slytherin qualities without having a house called Slytherin. This kind of dilemma happens in the Muggle world too. For example, Thomas Jefferson is considered a great historical figure, and probably has school houses named after him, but he refused to free his slaves (I think that's true, I'm English so my US history is shaky). Do we deny his value because of this act we would now consider evil? No. Partly because we've lost sense of good and evil as moral absolutes, i.e. he was a man of his times, but also because the good he did was amazing. Slytherin's evil act, the creation of the Chamber, was considered an unfounded myth until now. He left the school, he wasn't chucked out: "He disliked taking students of Muggle parentage, believing them to be untrustworthy. After a while, there was a serious argument on the subject between Slytherin and Gryffindor, and Slytherin left the school" (CoS, UK Paperback, p. 114). Similar arguments (minus the "untrustworthy" bit) happen today in the Muggle world about exclusive religious schools. Post CoS we know Slytherin did at least one very evil thing, but Dumbledore tends to see the good in people so I doubt he'd disband or rename the house. Anyway wittchway, let us know if your friend is swayed by all these arguments. Cheers, Dumbledad. From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Nov 22 04:36:52 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 22:36:52 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Crookshanks References: Message-ID: <004a01c291e0$c81c60c0$d49ccdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 46957 Kathy writes: > Hi all. I'm new to the group, I'm so glad that I found it. Have > you discussed Crookshanks? I've been wondering if it's possible > that he's really an animagus? Hi Kathy, welcome aboard. I think Crookshanks is part Kneazle. I am 97% sure that JKR confirmed that in an interview but can't for the life of me think which one right now. According to Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them: The Kneazle was originally bred in Britain, though it is now exported worldwide. A small catlike creature with flecked, speckled, or spotted fur, outsize ears, and a tail like a lion's, the Kneazle is intelligent, independent, and occasionally aggressive, though if it takes a liking to a witch or wizard, it makes an excellent pet. The Kneazle has an uncanny ability to detect unsavoury or suspicious characters and can be relied upon to guide its owner safely home if they are lost. Kneazles have up to eight kittens in a litter and can interbreed with cats. Liscences are required for ownership as Kneazles are sufficiently unusual in appearance to attract Muggle interest. Now, JKR interview that I can't find aside, several points in there sound very much like Crookshanks. First of all, it says they can interbreed with cats. Which means Crookshanks is probably half cat/ half Kneazle, which would probably make him look more like a cat and therefore be mistaken for a cat. Second, "intelligent, independent, and occasionally aggressive." Sound familiar? Third, "if it takes a liking to a witch or wizard, it makes an excellent pet." Well, Crookshanks has certainly taken a liking to Hermione, after being stuck in that pet shop so long. Last, but not least, ". . . has an uncanny ability to detect unsavoury or suspicious characters" which of course is why Crookshanks was so aggressive toward Scabbers. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From heidit at netbox.com Fri Nov 22 06:08:28 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 02:08:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Crookshanks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46958 JkR has been quoted as saying that Crookshanks is part-Kneazle. A Kneazle is named and described in the schoolbook she released almost two years ago - Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, and you can learn more in the Beastiary at Steve's famous Lexicon - http://www.i2k.net/svanderark/lexicon(hope I got that right - working from memory here). Heidi Tandy Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, sizes and ships - 7 sickles an ounce http://www.FictionAlley.org -----Original Message----- From: "kathy" Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 04:00:54 To:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Crookshanks Real-To: "kathy" Hi all. I'm new to the group, I'm so glad that I found it. Have you discussed Crookshanks? I've been wondering if it's possible that he's really an animagus? --Kathy ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From oppen at mycns.net Fri Nov 22 06:58:44 2002 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 00:58:44 -0600 Subject: Hagrid's Status Message-ID: <032a01c291f4$99bddd80$9d560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 46959 Although I am disturbed to think of Hagrid, with his sweet nature and soft heart, being classified as a "beast" and therefore fair game for a casual AK-ing at the hands of That Bloody Brat (aka Draco Malfoy), I don't think it's too likely. Think about it for a second. Although he was eventually expelled (for what I have to admit was a piece of incredible stupidity that could have turned out worse than it did) _Hagrid was considered human enough to go to Hogwarts!_ Same goes for Madame Maxime, (lie about her ancestry though she might)---she almost certainly had to go to school somewhere, and we see no mention in canon anywhere of magical schools for "beasts." Centaurs, OTOH, are considered "beasts" at their own request, and we see no hooved students, even though they are clearly very magical in their own right. So, if That Bloody Brat _does_ AK Hagrid for grins and giggles, once he's found out, it's off to juvie Azkaban for him. *picturing the celebrations in the Gryffindor common-room, with butterbeer flowing like water, snacks being consumed, Hermione dancing on a table, and loud choruses of "Happy Days Are Here Again!"* And, since I'm sure that That Bloody Brat _does_ know that this is the case, he won't AK Hagrid. Now, a certain house-elf who now revels in his freedom _might_ have reasons to worry about him, but Hagrid's safe from him. From jodel at aol.com Fri Nov 22 08:08:12 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 03:08:12 EST Subject: TimeTurner!Snape in the graveyard Message-ID: <1a5.c5fc551.2b0f3fec@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46960 The more I think of it, the more sense Theresnothingtoit's theory of TimeTurner!Snape having actually been at the graveyard scene makes. Within a 24-hour period at the end of PoA Dumbledore is handed the news of Trelawney's second prediction, the eye-witness evidence of Peter Pettigrew's betrayal and Sirius's innocence, Pettigrew's escape, the whole time turning rescue of Sirius and Buckbeak, and Hermione returns the Time Turner to Professor McGonagall. (or announced that she inteded to.) At this specific point Snape is on a tear and not likely to listen to reason until he cools down. Which he will probably do by the time the students leave for summer break. I can see Dumbledore having a major strategy session with his most trusted Deputies as soon as the Hogwarts Express leaves the station and making sure that they are now all on the same page. Dumbledore was watching for (and seeing) signs of Voldemort's impending return since midsummer. They KNOW that if he makes it back he will call his followers. Including Snape, and it is as much as his life is worth not to respond. If Snape is going to be able to get any kind of information from inside the DE organization he is going to have to live a double life in the sense that he will sometimes need to be in two places at the same time. Snape has figured out the Time Turner by the time of this strategy session. He may not be quit as brilliant as fanon has him, but even canon Snape is stated as being no fool, and i seriously doubt that Hermione is the first student who has ever been authorized to use a Time Turner. When Harry and Cedric disapear from the maze they know this is it. They check the time and take the risk that some kind of information will get through before Snape is called. About an hour later the call comes through and they know that Voldemort has returned. They are probably making their last minute contingency plans when Harry suddenly returns and they decide to get his report before Snape goes into the situation blindly. The unmasking of Crouch Jr delays things further, but the information uncovered is important enough to take the risk. This segues into the face-off with Fudge. All in all it is close to four hours after the inital disapearance from the maze before things settle down to the point that Snape is finally able to deploy his TimeTurner and make his appearance, and he goes in with advance notice of what will happen up to Potter's escape from the graveyard. He sets the Time Turner to the point where Harry and Cedric disapeared from the maze, collects his DE robe and mask and leaves the grounds (while his earlier self is publically at the Quidditch pitch) and walks to a point outside the bounds, changes into his rig and awaits the call. He takes care not to speak or call attention to himself while Potter is still present at the gathering and after Potter's escape takes steps to disassociate himself with his actions against QuirrelMort, claiming that if the Dark Lord had only identified himself, he would have assisted him instead, and boasts of being in Dumbledore's confidence, offering to spy on him, now that Pettigrew's cover is blown. (It is just barely possible that Snape took the place in the circle of someone he knew to be missing and did not identify himself until after Harry's escape. Consequently, even if Voldemort WAS refering to Snape as the one who got away, the statement might have been modified once Snape revealeed himself as "loyal.") In any event, Snape was back before morning with a report of what had gone down after Harry escaped with the cup and Cedric's body. The strange look that Snape gave Harry at the leaving feast is due to the fact that Snape HAD actually been present at the graveyard meeting and -- for the first time in the series -- was both present and consious and able to watch Harry in action under fire. He heard the boy's report. He saw what had actually happened. Now he has to reevaluate some of his oppinions about the boy. This may be the first time that Snape has actually had to face up to the notion that Harry is NOT James. Works for me, anyway. -JOdel From ping_chan at netzero.com Fri Nov 22 06:12:58 2002 From: ping_chan at netzero.com (ping_chan at netzero.com) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 06:12:58 GMT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The teaser words on JKR's note Message-ID: <20021121.221817.2545.49884@webmail04.lax.untd.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46961 pepsiboy71 at mac.com wrote: >Would JKR approve of it? Just a thought... I don't think that she would mind... the charity (which one is it?) will be getting lots of money, and fans will be getting what they want. If she didn't want fans to know, she wouldn't be auctioning it off. She could auction off, say, an autographed first edition of PS, which could fetch more money from bookcollectors and such. Besides, being the rabid fans that we are, I doubt that the contents of the card would be kept secret for very long no matter who buys it. --Ping-Chan, hoping she doesn't look too much like a dumb newbie ^_^ From bloubet at incanmonkey.com Fri Nov 22 07:23:14 2002 From: bloubet at incanmonkey.com (bloubet at incanmonkey.com) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:23:14 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Teaser Card; Nightcaps In-Reply-To: <1037923663.3335.71246.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <200211220723.gAM7NEq05263@incanmonkey.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46962 Sherry said: >Erm... I don't think that buying this card is the same as buying the copyri ght. > JKR wrote it, so she retains the copyright. Buying the card is like buyin g a >book - you have the right to read it, loan it out, cite it, etc. but *not* to >make photocopies and sell them. >Now, from what I understand, if we simply *post* what is on the card, nobod y is >making any money off of it, and it becomes comparable to loaning out a book you >have bought. Furthermore, if we all contribute to its purchase, then it >belongs to *all* of us and we all have the right to read it. But to be on the >safe side, it would be best to just be up front with it and ask permission. As I understand it (and I do have some experience with the printed word and using it on websites), posting the contents of a copyrighted work is NOT the same as loaning out a book. It's the same as printing a new copy of the work and distributing it for free, impacting the livelihood of the original author (and holder of the copyright). Unless you can guarantee that only people who have contributed to the payment for the card are seeing what's on it, it could be a very sticky wicket indeed. You can post (or reprint) a limited quote (and there are specific limits as to quote length) and fall within the "fair use" clause of copyright violation. Distributing the entire copyrighted work to multiple users who haven't paid for it is right out. Again, this is as I understand it, and limited to American usage. I'm no lawyer, but I deal with print and the internet daily. It sounds like we're all agreeing that asking permission up front is the best road. (This wasn't meant to be an argumentative post, just informative. If my tone is a bit brusque, blame it on lack of sleep from having to read the fun HP posts before I can go to bed. *grin*) bel P.S. Someone recently mentioned "nightcap, whatever that is". Maybe it's just American. A nightcap (unless you're talking about a thing you wear on your head while you sleep *grin*) usually refers to a last drink before bedtime, often, but not always, alcoholic. A hot toddy, a glass of sherry, a last warm cuppa could all be a nightcap. At a guess, the term relates back to that thing you wear on your head while you sleep (much more popular 100 and more years ago than now). In either case, the nightcap is the last thing you "put on" before you go to bed. From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 10:19:08 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:19:08 -0000 Subject: Colin's camera: Smoke/eye-glass, ghost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46963 I think it wasn't his *camera* that was smoking; it was the *film* inside it. It smoked, probably the same way as if you directed sunlight into it via a magnifying glass. The film burned and thus couldn't be used to say what/who petrified Colin and the others. Myrtle died having seen Basilisk trough her eye-glasses... We don't see what kind of eye-problem her glasses were fixing, but at any rate, she has glasses so that the picture meets the proper place at the back of the eye, as the picture is otherwise unfocused. If she had not worn her eye-glasses or had tears in her eyes at the moment, she might have lived (but of course she had just wiped her eyes, cleaned her glasses and put them back on to see what was there... Poor Myrtle) Justin saw the basilisk trough a ghost... If Nick acted as a lense, it hit behind or in the front of Justin's focus of vision... -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 10:48:10 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:48:10 -0000 Subject: Winky's dismissal and wands In-Reply-To: <20021121233146.40919.qmail@web20002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46964 > --- Ashfae: > > > As an additional point on the argument about > > non-human creatures > > and wands, many of them don't seem to need wands; > > house-elves, for > > example, have very powerful magic of their own, and > > don't need wands to > > implement it. The law disallowing nonhumans to use > > wands may not be as > > prejudiced as it first seems in that respect. Rebecca: > How can that not be prejudiced? Just because she > doesn't need a want doesn't mean she shouldn't have a > right to one. That's like saying people who can do > amazingly complex mathmatical problems in their heads > shouldn't have access to a computer or calculator. > I don't think that calculator analogy works here, Rebecca... For one thing, solving complex mathematical problems is not calculating. For learning the actual methods of counting, calculators are banned for some courses (just so that people learn to count 2+2 without one...) But how about an analogy of medication? For those who don't need it, use of medics could be downright harmful. Like Digitalis or insuline-- those with need would die without it, those without need would die with it... Some medics, while necessary for some with need, are illegal drugs for those without need... So well, I think that house-elves would harm others or themselves if they were given wands much worse than Neville turning his ears into cactuses. (Side-note: human-transfiguration while they haven't been tought that yet and Neville thinks he can't do much magic). It's like giving matches to a toddler... -- Finwitch From judyshapiro at directvinternet.com Fri Nov 22 12:18:42 2002 From: judyshapiro at directvinternet.com (Judy) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:18:42 -0000 Subject: TimeTurner!Snape in the graveyard In-Reply-To: <1a5.c5fc551.2b0f3fec@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46965 Theresnothingtoit proposed that Snape *was* in the Graveyard Scene, having used a Time Turner to return there after Harry returned to Hogwart's. This is a clever and orginal theory, and I agree that, although Time Turners are outside of Snape's field of expertise, Dumbledore could have filled him in the summer after PoA. But, I don't really see a reason for Snape to time-travel back to the Graveyard scene. Being at the Graveyard really buys him (and the "Light" side) nothing. There is no need for him to spy on the Graveyard scene, as Harry had already witnessed it. So, the main point to Snape's being at the Graveyard would be to convince Voldemort that he was loyal. But would being at the Graveyard really help convince Voldemort of Snape's loyalty? I don't think so. Snape already has a perfectly good explanation for being tardy when Voldemort summoned the DE's to the graveyard -- Snape was with Dumbledore, watching the Triwizard Tournament. Dumbledore would have noticed if he was gone. Snape's problem in convincing Voldemort of his loyalty isn't that he was late to the Graveyard -- his problem is everything before that. Dumbedore "outed" him as a spy in the Pensieve scene, he's been at Hogwarts for years, and he didn't help QuirrelMort. Now, I think that with the help of Voldemort's immense ego, some persuasiveness potion, and perhaps some testimony as to Snape's (bad) character by Lucius, all of these problems can be overcome. But, I don't think that time-traveling back to the Graveyward would help much. ~~ Judy Serenity, who really really needs to sign off the computer and do some work From gandharvika at hotmail.com Fri Nov 22 12:40:29 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:40:29 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The teaser words on JKR's note Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46966 Ping Chan Wrote: >Besides, being the rabid fans that we are, I doubt that the contents of the >card would be kept secret for very long no matter who buys it. Which has got me thinking...I don't know if I'd want to see the teasers...I mean, checking out teasers from the movie is one thing...we already know what CoS is all about. But to get into a book that hasn't already been published, wouldn't that just ruin the surprise of it all? It's kinda like rattling and peeling back the wrapping paper off our Christmas presents to peek at what we're going to get, don't you think? Maybe this now should be discussed on OTChatter, eh? >--Ping-Chan, hoping she doesn't look too much like a dumb newbie ^_^ Welcome, Ping Chang, to our happy family! -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 11:35:18 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:35:18 -0000 Subject: The new area... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46967 How about... St Mungos? It is a magical place where Harry has never been before, it could happen before the term starts-- It could even happen during the day we were left with in GoF. With the ending part of the book titled Beginning... Suppose there's a car-crash where Vernon dies and Harry's injured and taken into St Mungos by the knight-bus. Harry could meet Gilderoy Lockhart (still not having his memory) and the *real* Alastor Moody while he's in there... -- Finwitch From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 14:30:02 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 06:30:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quirrellmort knew about about Snape (was: TimeTurner!Snape in the graveyard) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021122143002.12968.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46968 Judy wrote: Snape's problem in convincing Voldemort of his loyalty isn't that he was late to the Graveyard -- his problem is everything before that. Dumbedore "outed" him as a spy in the Pensieve scene, he's been at Hogwarts for years, and he didn't help QuirrelMort. Now, I think that with the help of Voldemort's immense ego, some persuasiveness potion, and perhaps some testimony as to Snape's (bad) character by Lucius, all of these problems can be overcome. But, I don't think that time-traveling back to the Graveyward would help much. Me: It wouldn't have helped at all. In addition to Dumbledore outing him years ago (which occurred after Voldemort fell, so he doesn't necessarily know about that, although I doubt that there is a Death Eater who DOESN'T know), we mustn't forget that Voldemort was possessing Quirrell's body during Harry's first year, and Snape and Quirrell had numerous run-ins. Voldemort knew, when he was in Quirrell's body, that Snape was on Dumbledore's side and trying to prevent Quirrell from getting the stone. He was there for every encounter between the two professors, and he was aware (as Quirrell was) that Snape was using a counter-jinx to save Harry during the Quidditch match. Given this very recent evidence of Snape's loyalties, I don't think his showing up in the graveyard would have convinced Voldemort that Snape had had a change of heart, and he probably would have just killed him on the spot, or put Cruciatus on him, at the very least, to punish him for ever even considering siding with Dumbledore instead of him. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 15:17:36 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:17:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Winky's dismissal and wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021122151736.72719.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46969 > I don't think that calculator analogy works here, > Rebecca... For one > thing, solving complex mathematical problems is not > calculating. For > learning the actual methods of counting, calculators > are banned for > some courses (just so that people learn to count 2+2 > without one...) I agree that my analogy isn't perfect, but neither is yours. Elves already know 2+2, and they can do quadratical equations in their heads. Should they be refused calculator? They aren't in second-grade math, they're in college. And the wizards don't want them going to graduate school. I really believe the wizards do this so that the elves will not greatly outpower them. They are keeping others down to keep themselves up. > But how about an analogy of medication? For those > who don't need it, > use of medics could be downright harmful. Like > Digitalis or insuline-- > those with need would die without it, those without > need would die > with it... But magic and wands would not be dangerous to them. So that analogy does not work. Never have we ever had any indiation that using a wand could cause a house elf to harm themselves. > Some medics, while necessary for some with need, are > illegal drugs > for those without need... But wands aren't medication. They're tools. Wizards don't need wands to survive or stay healthy. They use wands to cook and such. > So well, I think that house-elves would harm others > or themselves if > they were given wands much worse than Neville > turning his ears into > cactuses. (Side-note: human-transfiguration while > they haven't been > tought that yet and Neville thinks he can't do much > magic). It's like > giving matches to a toddler... > I disagree. There is no reason to think wands would cause elves to harm themselves. Yes, Dobby had a strange idea of protecting Harry, but so does Dumbledore when it comes down to it. Elves are not toddlers. They are people. There is no evidence that they are less intelligent than humans (though they seem to think quite differently). They talk funny, but that's dialect. They, intelligent beings, are being deprived of certain tools. And it's not just them. Am I the only one disturbed by the fact that wizards only allow themselves wands and no one else? Seems very human-centric to me. I think we'll come to discover that humans are by far the least magical of magical creatures. They offset that by the use of wands. And they handicap every other species so that they can even the playing field. And that isn't right. It's like all the below par artists refusing art education and artist tools from the average and great artists and making the poor souls use their fingers. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Nov 22 15:23:14 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:23:14 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] TBAY: Assassin!Snape and Karkaroff's Big Mistake Message-ID: <15b.17dca54c.2b0fa5e2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46970 Plagiarism notice! I should just like to point out that Pip suggested exactly the idea that I outline below in greater detail, in the wee small hours when I was tucked up in bed. I wrote the bones of this yesterday and fleshed it out this morning, not realising from the title that Pip's post (Re: MAGIC DISHWASHER explanation) was anything to do with this thread. So that's why she doesn't appear in the below. Sorry, Pip! It's just a case of great minds (and am I glad I'm not completely out on a limb here!) ....................... The night wore on. Cindy was defending her theory that Snape could prove his 'loyalty' to Dumbledore by killing Karkaroff with Dumbledore's collusion. > "And that makes a big difference. Look at it this way. If Snape > approaches Voldemort and does his very best song and dance to deny > being Dumbledore's spy, it might work. It also might *not* work. > And if it doesn't work, then Snape isn't getting out of Voldemort's > lair alive, is he? So is there anyone in this room who is 100% sure > that if Snape showed up, Voldemort would definitely let him live?" > > No one stirred or met Cindy's gaze. > > "Didn't think so. Dumbledore's not completely sure, either. If > there's one thing you can count on from an Evil Overlord, it's > unpredictability. So when Dumbledore authorized Snape to kill > Karkaroff to save Snape's hide, Dumbledore is doing the right > thing. Karkaroff is a dead man anyway. At least this way, > Karkaroff's death will accomplish two positive things ?- the > infiltration of Voldemort's inner circle and the survival of Severus > Snape. Forced to choose between Snape's life or Karkaroff's, > Dumbledore will pick Snape every time." > > "Ye-es, put like that, I can see your point, but Snape's best song and dance is very good, isn't it?" said Eloise, adjusting her robes over her cabaret outfit, easing herself slowly into a seat unnacountably left vacant and thereby accidently jogging Cindy's elbow and spilling her drink. Cindy glared at her. "Drink?" she asked picking up the brandy bottle. "Oh no...thank you...it's alright," said Eloise, drawing a hip flask out of her robes. "I've always found the brandy in here didn't agree with me somehow. Don't know why. Must ask George about it. I've even wondered if someone's been spiking it before now. "But look. Do we have to get so fixated on Karkaroff?" "Everyone else is quite happy with Karkaroff." "Not quite everyone. Pippin! Remind us what you said, will you?" Appearing suddenly at the table again, still sipping casually from a glass of mysterious red liquid, Pippin obliged. "Yes, Snape will be sent to assassinate someone, but I don't believe it will be Karkaroff. Instead, Karkaroff will be captured, and MacNair will get to kill him in some nasty, messy and, er, interesting way. Snape will have to watch, helpless, while his old pal (lover?) Karkaroff screams and begs him to help, and Harry gets to see it all via Scar-o-Vision. <> "But what has Voldemort got now that can compare with the live-in snack bar they've got at Azkaban? Why should the D-men think Voldemort can deliver, that he's stronger than the Ministry? Why indeed, unless he delivers to them the one thing that the Ministry has so far failed to provide...their lawful prey, the one prisoner who got away." Pippin paused for dramatic emphasis. "Snape is going after Sirius," she said. "I think you might be right, Pippin. Although then again, I have some misgivings. But let me expound......." Eloise ignored the shuffling but couldn't help noticing the fact that everyone was now looking fixedly into their glasses. She looked into her own, remarking that single malt with a dash of water was remarkably similar in colour to pale tea with no milk, regained her composure and launched herself on the assembled company. "Imagine I'm Voldemort.......OK, don't imagine *that* vividly," she said, as several chairs were pushed away from the table. "Well... if *I* were Voldemort and this fellow Snape came worming his way back, claiming he's never left me and I wanted him to prove his loyalty...... would I send him after Karkaroff? What would that prove? Only that Snape was willing to kill a man against whom I could only expect him to hold a grudge. Only that he would kill a man whom some of you agree even Dumbledore might regard as disposable. It would not prove that his loyalty to me at all and the fact that Dumbledore has been brought into the scheme rather proves it, I think. "Nah...Voldemort isn't going to be convinced by his killing Karkaroff. Not unless he *was* well known for being the DE who kept his hands clean. But even his first kill on Voldemort's orders? Would that specifically prove *loyalty*? I don't see it. Snape's playing for high stakes and Voldemort knows it. If he doubts him, suspects he's been planted by Dumbledore, he might very well expect him to consent to almost *anything* in order to prove his loyalty. *Almost*, Wendy. No, I don't even want to *think* about it. In fact, I especially don't want to think about it. "But, Snape has a pretty big. if dangerous, hand to play when you think about it, doesn't he?" "How d'ya mean?" "Here I am (I'm still Voldemort) with a guy who claims he's a double agent, sitting right there in prime position *at Hogwarts*. Why send him off after Karkaroff, when there are bigger fish to fry? And if I'm Snape, well, I have big things to offer, although getting out of paying them might be difficult. "Now Voldemort could do the old 'loyal servant at Hogwarts' thing again and try to inveigle Severus into some convoluted, cock-eyed scheme to deliver Harry into his hands again. But Voldemort already has Harry's blood. Why risk tangling with him again, without ridding him of his protector first? " 'Deliver the head of Albus Dumbledore on a plate, Severus and I will know that you have truly returned to me.' " "Oops. How do we get out of this one? "Maybe Severus won't *have* to do the heinous deed to prove himself to Voldemort. What if he just takes the credit? "Well, of course, dear old Albus is getting on a bit and beginning to look a bit scruffy round the edges, not unlike Fawkes before his burning. In fact I'm almost inclined to wonder whether under normal circumstances, Dumbledore, for whom death is only the next great adventure, wouldn't be saying, 'I really should get on with it, I've been looking terrible for ages.' Only, of course, he's a bit busy grooming Harry for his destiny and it's been a bit inconvenient just to pop his clogs. "But wait. We're at the pivotal point of the series. Sometime Harry is going to have to take over his own destiny without Dumbledore's help. Yes, I know it's all been said before. What if Dumbledore, who knows he is at the end of his life and who has by sometime late in OoP told Harry everything that he needs to tell him, willingly sacrifices himself in such a manner that Snape is able to pretend to Voldemort that he was the agent of his death? "Or I suppose he might just fake his death, but I'd want a body myself. Of course, Voldemort might not have read Snow White..... "But I have another scenario, that I favour even more. More pathos. Perhaps it even Bangs," Cindy regarded Eloise with a look of deep scepticism. "Well, it might give a little 'pop', you never know. "As some of you will know, I regard Dumbledore's, 'I would trust Hagrid with my life' to be a portent of things to come. "How about this. Dumbledore *does* trust Hagrid with his life and Hagrid does what Hagrid does - he fluffs it. Dumbledore dies. Hagrid is distraught. There is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth and Snape steps in both to protect Hagrid from the wrath of the WW and to take credit for the deed himself, (it's an 'accident' of course - even Voldemort can't expect Snape to go round openly murdering the most respected wizard of the age, which would be a bit self-defeating, really) thus simultaneously satisfying Voldemort and becoming deeply unpopular with the MoM, ordinary wizarding folks and three quarters of the school (maybe even McGonagall turning her back on him) though a hero to the Malfoys and the rest of the Slytherins. "Although I suppose he *could* pretend he'd murdered him outright. After all, he probably wouldn't have to spend long in Azkaban before Voldemort released all the prisoners and it would be fantastic cover, wouldn't it? "So there we would have the proof of Snape's loyalty and the terrible death all rolled into one neat package, with dear Severus' integrity still intact. "Or then there's the Sirius variant. But again, I just wonder, however much Voldemort might want to get his hands on Sirius, how much it would speak of Snape's loyalty. I mean Pettigrew was in the Shrieking Shack, wasn't he. He must have noticed that there was still no love lost between Snape and Sirius. I don't think that in Voldemort's position I would accept Snape killing a man I know he loathes as proof of loyalty, deeply conflicted as he might be." Eloise stood up. "I'm sorry, I've got to get out of this costume, it's killing me." "I've got just the thing!" said Cindy, handing her a Rookwood thong. "Oh, thanks!" replied Eloise, pulling a B.A.B.E.M.E.I.S.T.E.R. tee shirt out of an inner pocket. Eileen rolled her eyes skywards and shook her head sadly. "Hey, Eloise, I remember you were very skeptical when I first mentioned I had a crush on Rookwood." "Yes, well, he just seemed a bit insubstantial. You know, no dialogue - even Avery over there has dialogue - and not even a glimpse of him and besides, I find having crushes on more than three fictional characters at once a little time-consuming. Let me get changed and then I have to take Diana to task." ................................. Returning to the table, Eloise had Diana in tow. "Now, Diana, what have you been saying? Judy seems to think you've been nasty about Snape, that you said he *enjoyed* torturing people, that he was *evil*" "I think I just said that he's be rather good at the torture thing," she said. Well, he would wouldn't he? OK he was a *psychological* torturer, if you prefer. He still is, for that matter. But I didn't say he was *evil*. Promise." "The problem is, Diana that you don't have a straightforward view of the nature of how good and evil are played out in the Potterverse and it causes confusion." "It does?" "It does. You see, you stipulate that Snape did not convert from being an evil person to being a virtuous person, either as a result of a catalytic event, or over time. You state that at the time of joining Lord Voldemort, Snape embraced Voldemort's own doctrine that there was no such thing as good and evil. He was therefore operating in a world where morality didn't exist, where it held no meaning. In a sense he was innocent, in the same way child can be held innocent of acts whose morality they are too young to understand. "Now wait a minute........He was an adult, not a child, you say. Sure he was. But we don't have to look too far to see examples of people whose world view is radically different from ours committing acts which from our POV are obviously evil, but which from theirs are a moral duty. "Now Voldemort peddles and even more dangerous philosophy: that there is *no* morality; that self-interest and the quest for power are all that matter. Severus must have known this. He must have accepted it to have become a DE, just as Quirrell later accepted it. I believe that he accepted this as a working philosophy and thereby was, at the time, protected from the horrific reality of what he witnessed and did. And it's no more than thousands of other people have done; people who to their families and friends are perfectly nice, kind and loving, but people who have been ideologically persuaded that another particular group of people are subhuman, that it is their duty to wipe tham out, that their suffering is irrelevant. "And Snape, much as it pains me to admit it, isn't, apparently, a terribly nice, kind, loving person. I'm afraid that I *can* see him joining in. With Elkins, I think that unfortunately he *does* have a taste for that sort of thing, although I'm not sure whether he actually enjoys it or whether it isn't more of a reflex. But for some reason, he began to question Voldemort's philosophy. Maybe he twigged that Voldemort was the only one who *really* benefitted, that even if he sought power for himself, he would always be controlled by Voldemort. I don't know. But I believe it is the rejection of Voldemort's amorality and the embracing of morality that made him start to view what he was doing as wrong and led to his changing sides. "So I don't believe he was evil. I believe he did evil things out of a mistaken belief in a false philosophy. He was taken in by evil, if you like." Diana shook her blonde curls and took out a bottle of nail varnish to touch up her nails. "I never knew I was so complex," she said. "No, Diana," said Eloise with a sigh. "You keep you complexities well hidden." Eloise Hypothetic Alley: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hypotheticalley.html Inish Alley: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sgarfio at yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 17:31:48 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:31:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Assassin!Snape and Karkaroff's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021122173148.18501.qmail@web21408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46971 Cindy said: > "First of all, we already know that Dumbledore will have others do > his dirty work. Oh, he has no problem with that idea at all. > Dumbledore sent a wand-less Hagrid to recover Harry from Godric's > Hollow, even though the place could have been swarming with > murderous DEs. Dumbledore sent Hagrid to the Giants, and I think we > all know how that little mission is going to turn out. Dumbledore > let the trio face barriers like Devil's Snare and a vicious Three- > Headed dog to safeguard the Stone. But the clearest example of all > is how Dumbledore told Hermione and Harry to use the Timeturner > rather than use it to do the deed himself." And Acire replied: > Ready? Okay, in order: DD knew that if V-Mort had been somewhat > defeated, DEs would scatter. What better envoy to send to giants > than two half-giants? DD set it up so that Harry could do it to show > something to Harry about how powerful he was, and that he was not > just a normal wizard, if there is such a thing. DD could not have > used the TT himself, as it would be too noticeable, and Harry was > personally involved with the situation. If Ron had been conscious > and uninjured, I'm sure DD would have sent him along, as well. > Sirius escaping was more personal to Harry because Sirius was his > godfather. And DD was once again proving that he could rely on Harry > to do such things himself, and to see his power at doing things. > DD trusted Harry and Hermione to use the TT. He knew that Hermione > had enough knowledge of the TT's workings to keep Harry in line, and > he knew that Harry had enough sense to figure out the way things > could be done to direct Hermione. Hermione constantly repeats that > they can't be seen, and pulls Harry away from positions where there > is danger of them being seen. Now me: I have always seen Dumbledore as a long-haired version of Jean-Luc Picard. He has the same "Make it so" style of command. He assesses the situation, figures out who would be the best person for the task at hand, and then says "Make it so" and trusts them to do it. The major difference is that Picard solicits input from his people first, but since Dumbledore is 150 years old, he probably doesn't need much more input . The other difference is that Dumbledore is also an educator, so in addition to deciding who would be the best person to accomplish a task, he also takes into account the growth potential for that person. He "sends" Harry after Quirrelmort (not by direct command, but I think most of us agree that he did send Harry) because 1. Harry has defeated Voldemort before, making him the best person to accomplish the task, and 2. Harry has the most to gain from defeating Voldemort again on his own virtues, because Harry doesn't yet consider himself worthy of the adulation he receives, and because Harry deserves to come face-to-face with the man who murdered his parents. He sends Hagrid as envoy to the giants because Hagrid is a half-giant, *and* he accepts this about himself, unlike Mme. Maxime. So where does that leave Snape? Obviously he's being sent off to do something dangerous. I don't know what that could be, many things have been proposed here and I don't know which one I believe. But I think that it is clear that whatever needs to be done, Snape is the best person to accomplish the task - and may benefit from some personal growth along the way. One more Picard comment - sometimes his people die. That is the price of making good command decisions. I think Dumbledore knows this too. I don't know if Snape's assignment falls into this category or not, but I am terribly afraid for him. - Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From wind3213 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 22 17:35:30 2002 From: wind3213 at hotmail.com (Shauna) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:35:30 -0000 Subject: Winky's dismissal and wands In-Reply-To: <20021122151736.72719.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46972 Rebecca Stephens wrote: > They, intelligent beings, are being deprived of > certain tools. And it's not just them. Am I the only > one disturbed by the fact that wizards only allow > themselves wands and no one else? Seems very > human-centric to me. I think we'll come to discover > that humans are by far the least magical of magical > creatures. They offset that by the use of wands. And > they handicap every other species so that they can > even the playing field. And that isn't right. It's > like all the below par artists refusing art education > and artist tools from the average and great artists > and making the poor souls use their fingers. > I think JKR is setting up a parallel between the "good" wizards repression of non-human magical creatures and the "bad" wizards repression of non-magical humans (and their magical descendants). Think of all the help the "good" side could get from non-human creatures - from the giants, from the elves, from Remus Lupin, even. I think the "good" side is going to have to come clean about their hypocricy before JKR will allow them to win. ~ Shauna From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 22 18:38:38 2002 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:38:38 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The teaser words on JKR's note In-Reply-To: <20021121194447.77308.qmail@web21401.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021122120520.04f23c80@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46973 As the clock struck 11:44 AM 11/21/2002 -0800, Sherry Garfio took pen in hand and wrote: >--- "Megalynn S." wrote: > > Actually, this is a copyright issue - the owner of a letter or notecard > > owns the notecard or letter, and can do anything with it, but cannot > > make copies of it - this is one of the questions we have in to Sotheby's > > and one of the reasons we're waiting to start the collection. > > > > Heidi The recipient of the card owns the card and all access to it, but the author owns the copyright to the text. The text can only be reproduced with the author's permission or within the limits of the fair use doctrine. The card owner can sell, burn, loan or give the card away at will. > > Actually that's wrong. If you buy copyrighted material then you are > allowed > > to make one personal copy for yourself. The only way in which anyone can legally reproduce copyright material in under the fair use doctrine. The fair use doctrine, in general, never allows copying of a complete work. However, the fair use doctrine is determined on a case by case basis and is not a bright line rule. The owner of a document containing copyright material has no greater rights to reproduce the copyright material than anyone else, although he can control access to the document itself. > However if you own the copyright to > > it (which buying this card would also mean buying the copyright) means you > > can do whatever you want with it. Buying a document which contains copyright material does NOT mean buying the copyright. Buying copyright is a separate transaction and can only come from the author. >But, going by > > your rule JKR would not be able to make copies of her own books. JKR owns the copyrights to her books. Check the copyright page. >Now, from what I understand, if we simply *post* what is on the card, >nobody is >making any money off of it, and it becomes comparable to loaning out a >book you >have bought. No, whether or not the reproduction is for profit is not determinative. It is a single element in the fair use analysis. In general, reproducing an entire work is not allowable under fair use. > Furthermore, if we all contribute to its purchase, then it >belongs to *all* of us and we all have the right to read it. The owner of the document gets to control access to the actual document itself. > But to be on the >safe side, it would be best to just be up front with it and ask permission. >What we're proposing here isn't going to hurt anybody or deprive anybody >of any >royalties, and permission would most likely be granted, at which point we >could >stop worrying. Absolutely. This is the only way to be sure not to run into copyright trouble. Jim (who IRL is an attorney that often deals with copyright issues) From wynnde1 at aol.com Fri Nov 22 16:36:04 2002 From: wynnde1 at aol.com (wynnde1 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:36:04 EST Subject: (Out of TBAY) Snape & Voldemort (was Assassin!Snape, etc) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46974 Uh oh. I think I'm getting my self in deeper than I'd intended . . . it seems that a few people hanging out at the tavern are now thinking of me as the resident Snape/Voldemort shipper. NO NO NO NO NO! Argh. That's not what I meant at all when I wrote: >"You see, I have this whole scenario in mind as to why Snape joined the Death >Eaters in the first place . . . Snape was in the market for a substitute father figure >and was therefore susceptible to Voldemort's charisma. And Voldemort, if we give >him credit for being a *real* evil overlord, and not just a plot device, might >have been inclined to take advantage of young Severus in a very specific way . . . >Would teenage Snape have had the ability to defend himself against the certiainly >very forceful attentions of this older man?" And, regarding Voldmort taking Snape back as a DE: >"But maybe it's all more *personal* than that. Maybe Voldemort has a vested > interest in wanting to believe Snape couldn't have betrayed him because Snape was >always one of his very *favourites*. I won't go so far as to credit Voldemort with >actual feelings of love, but maybe as close to that as an Evil Overlord can get. He's >just *fond* of Snape in a very particular way and would do just about anything to >believe that Snape couldn't possibly have betrayed him. > It gives us a credible reason for Snape joining Voldemort in the first place which >doesn't involve him being just plain old evil. Plus, it give us a reason to believe that >Snape returning to Voldemort wouldn't just be a suicide mission." To which Judy leaped up and gasped in shock. >" Voldemort/Snape shipper in the Tavern? And Eliose wrote: >Snape's playing for high stakes and Voldemort >knows it. If he doubts him, suspects he's been planted by Dumbledore, he >might very well expect him to consent to almost *anything* in order to prove >his loyalty. *Almost*, Wendy. No, I don't even want to *think* about it. In >fact, I especially don't want to think about it. Now me again: My comments were in no way meant to suggest a Snape/Voldemort SHIP. Notice that I wrote that Severus might not have been able to defend himself against Voldemort's attentions - implying that he would *not* have chosen nor wanted those attentions, but didn't have had the strength of will or worldliness or whatever to know how to refuse. This is SexuallyExploitedTeenage!Snape. The theory is simply meant to offer an explanation for why Voldemort might be inclined to accept Snape back as a Death Eater, and not just AK him on sight, because VOLDEMORT has always had warm feelings for Snape. I never meant to imply that Snape returned these feelings in any way. I'm not saying Snape has *warm* feelings for Voldemort now, or did have at any point in the past. If this theory were to be true, it would probably be quite the opposite. I don't know how children who are abused in this sort of way feel about their abusers once they become adults. But in any case IT'S NOT A SHIP! - it's the football coach who seduces one of the boys on the team that he coaches. Or the priest/altarboy thing. Sure, sometimes the boy in question goes along with it - but it's still abuse and exploitation. I was talking about abuse of an underage Snape, not a consentual adult relationship. I did mention that it offered a reason for Snape to have joined the Death Eaters without being truly evil, and I can see how that might sound as though Snape was a willing and eager participant in the whole thing. I didn't mean it that way, and as Eileen pointed out, Voldemort was exploiting the young Death Eater recruits, whether they were being *sexually* exploited or not (presuming they were, indeed teenage at the time of recruitment). And, I'm quite willing to admit that it's very unlikely to be canonically true. I said this in my original post, too. But there are lots of other things discussed here which are also unlikely to be canonically true. So I didn't think that was a reason not to propose it. So please don't think of me as a Snape/Voldemort shipper. That thought makes me feel VERY ill! Sure, I'm admittedly bent, but the thought of Snape in love with Voldemort is WELL beyond where I am willing to go! Wendy (Who *really* doesn't want to be thought of as the most bent person in the Bay. I'm really very nice once you get to know me! I just don't squick very easily. ) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 18:14:46 2002 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:14:46 -0000 Subject: MAGIC DISHWASHER explanation (was: Re: Assassin!Snape's Next Victim)and Granny W In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46975 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "abigailnus" wrote: but in life sometimes you have to do terrible things. There's a beautiful passage in Terry Pratchett's book Carpe Jugulum that I think illustrates this. Granny Weatherwax, the witch and midwife, has been called to the bedside of a woman in a difficult labor, and has to choose whether to save the mother or the baby. It becomes clear throughout the book that she believes she is no longer a good person because she dared to make that choice, but that she also recognizes that the choice had to be made, and she was the only person strong enough to make it. (Unfortunately I don't have my copy of CJ in front of me - Pratchett explains things so much better than I ever could.) Amazing! Absolutely Amazing. I re-read Carpe Jugulem recently and do you know when I read this passage who I thought of? Severus Snape. There are several "meditations" in this book on what Pratchett calls Edge Witchery. Change that to Edge Wizardry and what do you have? Severus Snape again. He walks a tightrope between the dark and light sides an no one (not even, I strongly suspect at this point, JKR) knows on which side he will eventually fall. And therin lies the fascination with the character. JKR calls him "a deeply horribly person" yet she has done nothing but work her fingers to the bone showing us otherwise. Will he redeem himself? Does he need redemption? Is he fooling us all? Is he fooling himself? The only thing that's for sure is that he's on a tightrope, working his Edge Wizardry and Love him or Hate him, we are all hypnotised. Melpomene From nobradors at hotmail.com Fri Nov 22 19:07:05 2002 From: nobradors at hotmail.com (nuriaobradors) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:07:05 -0000 Subject: killerbeasts, Muggleborns, good Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46976 Re: killerbeasts, Muggleborns :: delurking to stand up for kitties:: --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Pippin quoted: > > >>I have from time to time heard of animals which will attack > for > > "the pure pleasure of the hunt" (for example, velocirraptors in > > Jurasic Park), but I have never actually seen such animal in > real > > life, nor (I think) have ever heard of such species. Maybe > > someone can enlighten me here. << > > Pippin: > > > There are at least two: cats...and humans. > > > Just curious - do you know if cats still in the wild would do this? > Because domesticated cats might still have a irresistible > biological impulse to hunt, causing them to chase mice even > when they're well-fed - which isn't quite the same as, say, a lion > finishing her meal and deciding she wants to chase gazelles for > fun. AH! but you said magig words here: "biological impulse". This is called an atavic reflex, i.e., a distant memory from the times they lived in the wild. We humans also have it, e.g. when we get fat in winter and lose that weight in summer, from the time wild mo sapiens *had to* prepare themselves for winter bc there was no tins or freezers to store food in and not even old conservation techniques as salt, marmalade etc. There's no *evil* in hunting the poor rat or bird, just instinc. Blimey, my cats are all well-fed and they still *eat* the whole bird! Pip said: >*cough* Canon contradiction *cough* >CoS Ch. 14, p.187 [UK paperback]: >'Dean Thomas, who, like Harry, had grown up with Muggles...' >Dean is described as being like *Harry* - a wizard by blood who has >been brought up by Muggles, rather than like *Hermione*, a Muggle >born. >Whether Dean is a Half-blood being brought up by Muggle relatives, >or a Full-blood who got adopted by Muggles remains to be seen. But >he's almost certainly *not* muggle born. Isn't it normal for muggle-born children to be brought up by, um, muggles? My point being, the fact that Dean's grown up with Muggles, while not being conclusive proof of muggle parentage, is by no mean proof of the opposite. I personally think Dean is Muggle born, but at that early stage in Hogwarts, not being aware yet of all the bloodline issues among wizard folk, and not feeling quite related to his wizard state yet, Harry would rather distinguish between wizards being *brought up by*,not *born to* muggles or other wizards. It is growing uo among wizards that strikes Harry as uncommon in PS, so in this light, Dean's "like him" regardless of who Dean's parents are. *** Now about Slytherins: Slytherin qualities are ambition, cunning, ability to manipulate people. Of course, an evil person with these qualities is bound to be well known as a baddie. Wormtail was most probably in Gryffindor and so was Sirius, who took the blame for Peter's crime, however, wizard folk insist that "all baddies came from Slytherin". Looks like Slytherin baddies have been always more showy than oters. I'm sure there are a lot of very talented witches and wizards who have made great contributions to their world who come from Slytherin. Now, I'm sure I'm not the only one there that spends her life classifying people according to Hogwarts houses, know what I mean? So, have you people seen french movie "Amelie"? IMO, Amelie's a Slytherin, however, she's ever so good and kind. So no, Slytherin should not be vanished from Hogwarts, and not all slyths are bad. Nuri :: now thinking Finwinch theory about the new scenario of book 5 is a wonderful one! :: From Ali at zymurgy.org Fri Nov 22 19:12:49 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:12:49 -0000 Subject: Quirrellmort knew about about Snape (was: TimeTurner!Snape in the graveyard) In-Reply-To: <20021122143002.12968.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46977 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barb wrote in response to Judy: << In addition to Dumbledore outing him years ago (which occurred after Voldemort fell, so he doesn't necessarily know about that, although I doubt that there is a Death Eater who DOESN'T know)>> Me:- Whilst I would agree that every Death Eater *should* know about Snape's "defection", his treatment actually seems more ambiguous to me. Draco is Snape's favourite pupil. In return, Draco certainly seems to fawn to him. IIRC in CoS after Dumbledore has been suspended, Draco tells Snape that he thought his father would vote for him as the future headmaster. Is it likely that every Death Eater neglected to tell their children that Snape, the Head of House for the majority of them, actually betrayed Voldemort? Lucius might lie to the MoM and the general public about his involvement with Voldemort, but his son is in no doubt. Perhaps, Lucius told Draco about the Death Eater involvement, but forgot to mention about Snape? Why? Perhaps, Snape favours Draco in the hope that this treatment will convince Lucius to support him if Voldemort does turn his attention towards Snape. I can't imagine that Snape would be so naive. To me, there appears to be either a considerable amount of ignorance about Snape's involvement with, and betrayal of Voldemort OR there are alot of tactical games being played, the results of which have yet to be decided. Ali From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 20:00:04 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:00:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quirrellmort knew about about Snape (was: TimeTurner!Snape in the graveyard) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021122200004.34342.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46978 I wrote in response to Judy: In addition to Dumbledore outing him years ago (which occurred after Voldemort fell, so he doesn't necessarily know about that, although I doubt that there is a Death Eater who DOESN'T know) Ali wrote: Whilst I would agree that every Death Eater *should* know about Snape's "defection", his treatment actually seems more ambiguous to me. Draco is Snape's favourite pupil. In return, Draco certainly seems to fawn to him. IIRC in CoS after Dumbledore has been suspended, Draco tells Snape that he thought his father would vote for him as the future headmaster. Me: You raise a good point. Many Death Eaters were said (by Arthur Weasley, IIRC) to have escaped punishment by claiming to have been under Imperius. Many of those who escaped punishment could be under the impression that Snape confunded Dumbledore into making that statement at Karkaroff's hearing. Certainly people who lie tend to think everyone around them is lying, and Lucius Malfoy, among others, could simply believe that Snape was very clever (as he was also, presumably) in escaping punishment for whatever he may have done as a Death Eater. However--even if his followers are divided on how to interpret Dumbledore's defense of Snape, I believe that the events that took place during Harry's first year probably leave no doubt in Voldemort's mind as to which side Snape is really on, and he will not waste a great deal of time in telling any of the Death Eaters that Snape is with Dumbledore and not to be trusted. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dicentra at xmission.com Fri Nov 22 20:54:39 2002 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:54:39 -0000 Subject: TBAY: More Assassin!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46979 Suddenly, the door to the tavern bursts open, and two figures draped in red jump into view. "No one expects the Sirius Apologist!" shouts the taller figure. Dicentra and her companion wait expectantly, frozen in their swashbuckling poses. The tavern goes quiet except for the chirping of a lone cricket. "You missed 'em," says the handsome barkeep. "They're in the back room." Dicentra's face falls as she and her companion relax their poses. "Uh, as you were..." she tells the patrons, most of whom have already returned to their conversations. They troop down the hallway into the back room and see the open door of the back room. They jump into the doorway. "No one expects the Sirius Apologist!" Dicentra shouts, trying to recapture the element of surprise. No one in the room looks remotely startled. "We're not talking about Sirius," drawls one of the occupants. "Oh, but you *were*!" Dicentra cries. "I distinctly heard someone dissing Sirius." She looks around. "It was HER!" she says, lunging forward, poking Wendy in the chest with her wand. "SHE's the one who said... "'We've got LOADS more dirt on Sirius Black, for example. We know of a very specific awful thing he did.' "Then she looked around guiltily as if expecting me to charge in right away, but as everyone knows, No One Expects The Sirius Apologist, so I had to wait until her guard was down. Fortunately, Eileen ran interference for me by telling Wendy that the only Sirius apologist was Cindy, who was a bit indisposed at the moment. And *then* she said... "'[Sirius is] an adult, and should realise that what he did was heinously wrong. But he still sticks to his, "Snape deserved it" story. Which is a load of crap, any way you look at it. And I'm simply unable to respect Sirius because of it. Which is a shame, really, because he's actually Dead Sexy. Now that he's cleaned up a bit, anyway.'" "See?!? We're getting that old 'Snape isn't as bad as Sirius' argument. And I must say I Beg To Differ!" Dicentra looks around the room wildly. "WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE PRANK!" says the entire room in unison. "Fine then," says Dicentra, pulling up a chair and perching herself on the back. Her companion, a dazed-looking boy with glasses and messy black hair, leans against the wall. "Let's talk about Snape, and how Bad he was. And I'll begin by returning to what SHE said," Dicentra waves her want threateningly at Wendy. "'At this point, canonically, we know of *nothing* concrete that Snape has done which would necessitate a redemption, do we? Yes, he was a Death Eater, but we have no details of crimes he committed.' "What's this 'Yes, he was a Death Eater BUT' going on here? There's no BUT when it comes to being a Death Eater. Don't you realize what 'Death Eater' means? It's not some pseudo-scary name that Voldemort gave his Legions of Terror. It's a descriptive name that says what they do. They Eat Death." She turns to her companion. "Post 38649, please." The boy fumbles around in his robes and produces a roll of parchment. "We know that Voldemort's wand is made from the wood of a yew tree, and yew trees are, as Catlady reminds us, 'symbol[s] of death. Because: 1) Its berries are poisonous. 2) The English longbow was so great because it was made of yew wood, which is a natural composite. 3) It is traditionally planted in churchyards on purpose to consume the buried corpses as tree fertilizer.' "As you can see, yew trees are themselves death eaters: feasters on the dead. But I doubt Voldemort and his cronies are exhuming graves to gnaw on moldy old bones. No, they've undoubtedly found a new way to eat death--cause it, then profit from it. "Seeing as how Voldemort's ultimate quest is immortality, it stands to reason that his DEs are following him down that same path. Is it not probable that they've learned how to 'eat' the death of someone they've AK'ed, adding that person's remaining lifespan to their own? And is it not reasonable to assume that anyone who made it into Voldemort's Inner Circle pursued that path toward immortality with the same vigor as Voldemort himself? Do you really mean to tell me that Snape became a Death Eater without Eating Death? Surely, you jest!" Dicentra looks around triumphantly. "I don't jest," says a voice. "And I do suggest that Snape kept his hands relatively clean while he was in the ranks of the DEs." "Who said that?" Dicentra demands pointing her wand first at one person, then another. "No one will fess up, will they? But I know all you Snapefans want to think that Snape turned on Voldemort because he couldn't bring himself to develop a taste for killing. That he never descended to the level of Lucius Malfoy or Walden Mcnair. You've all been talking to that George out there, haven't you?" Dicentra has begun to froth at the mouth ever so slightly. Her glittering black eyes dart around the room. "Goblet of Fire," she barks to her companion, who starts out of a light nap. He produces a thick tome from his robes. "Here we are... end of the Pensive chapter... 'Harry looked into Dumbledore's light blue eyes and the thing he really wanted to know spilled out of his mouth before he could stop it.' "'"What made you think he'd really stopped supporting Voldemort, Professor?"' "'Dumbledore held Harry's gaze for a few seconds, and then said, "That, Harry, is a matter between Professor Snape and myself."' "See? There's no reason why Dumbledore couldn't have told Harry right then and there that Snape had developed a distaste for Voldemort's Death-Eating ways. There's nothing so secret about that. He could have explained to Harry that Snape wasn't as bad as the rest. Surely Harry should know something like that. But no, Dumbledore's sitting on a Bang, as sure as I'm standing here. Snape turned back after having been in up to his eyebrows." Everyone in the room was staring either at Dicentra or at the nearest means of escape. "Which means that Assassin!Snape isn't so far out of character. As Elkins said, Snape's concept of Evil goes so deeply into Pure Evil that anything less than the extreme falls into the "that's not so bad" category. Bullying Harry and Neville, for example, seems inexcusable to us, but he's done so much worse it looks positively righteous to him. So effecting a 'surgical' kill, to prevent more deaths later on, is not going to register on his Evil scale and neither, might I add, on Albus Dumbledore's. "Having moral courage sometimes means doing one awful thing to prevent something worse from happening. The cop who takes out a fleeing, armed suspect isn't at all happy about killing another human being (they routinely go in for therapy after killing someone), but it has to be done to prevent the suspect from killing someone else. Soldiers in a war have to kill too, in horrific ways, but if that's what you have to do to prevent a hostile nation from taking over your country, that's what you do. "There's plenty of evidence to suggest that JKR doesn't flinch in the face of violence or Evil, and that she's not going to pull any punches. She's not going to tone down Snape's past or prevent Harry from having to do bad things in the future because of mere squeamishness. You mark my words." Suddenly, Pippin Apparates on the scene, startling Dicentra. "Snape is going after Sirius," she declares before Disapparating. Dicentra, nonplussed, mouths silently like a fish for a few moments before finding her voice. "Right..." she says, her voice breaking slightly. "Dumbledore sends Sirius to pull the Old Crowd together, and moments later sends Snape out to kill him. *That's* effective." But a few tears have pooled in her eyes and she runs from the room to hide the fact that she's crying. Because No One Expects A Sirius Apologist To Cry. --Dicentra, who *earned* her FEATHERBOAS, dadgummit From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Fri Nov 22 17:56:05 2002 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:56:05 -0000 Subject: Another look at the prank... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46980 Spend enough time with a Snape THeory and eventually the Prank has to come into play. If you recall, in POA, when the teachers get nostaglic about James and Sirius, a comment is made about how they were two of the best students in school. Now, they could be talking purely in terms of grades or as being all-around students. Lets assume that they are talking about grades..... Maybe it was Sirius who was Top Dog of Gryffindor. Sirius was the prefect, not James, who's only real competition for the Head Boy position was that greaseball Snape (who's getting a little too curious for his own good). Fast forward to after the prank, and DD is good n' pissed. He talks to the boys seperately, Telling Snape not to say a word to anyone, telling Sirius what a grievious thing he has done, and Praising James for being such a Hero, but what was he doing there in the first place ( With that twinkle in his eye, of course...). But it's not enough, DD is unsure whether it is Snape who should be punished for sneaking around/spying on other students ( oh the irony) or Sirius who has taken things one step too far and this is the proof that the boy might actually be harbouring some sort of problems that twinkle ever so slightly in past pranks. What is DD to do? punish both boys. He tells Severus (since he is the hypothetical Victim) that he won't be suspended and can remain a prefect but will not be considered for Head Boy. At all. DD tells Sirius that due to the nature of the prank, he will not be considered for the Head Boy position. It is too late in the year to remove him from his prefect position for it to have any real effect but Sirius will have bigger problems then the loss of the Head Boy position when he has to explain to Remus Lupin the 'WHYs' of the incident. But what to do about the Head Boy position and how can he keep this how thing under-wraps? Given DD recent history of ensuring a Gryffindor vistory, why not do so then? And there is a perfect candidate for the job; James Potter. Just make up some story at the closing feast (or opening feast if he takes the summer to think about) about some valient effort that James made in rescueing a stranger, how Jamea has been an all-around student and the perfect embodiment of the kind of person we should strive to be. Remus secret is kept safe and James is rightly rewarded for his bravery. Sirius is kindof grateful, the Head Boy being from Gryffindor and his best friend. SOme people asked questions, but he is always able to pass it on by saying 'james deserves it' and knows that's the truth. At least the git got a good scare. Severus on the other hand is stewing. Since neither Snape or Sirius talk to each other or anyone else outside ther respective circles, neither know of the other's punishment. But Severus is a little more on the ball. He sees the whole "Head boy Potter" spectacle as a way to protect Gryffindor pride and to prevent people from seeing how vindictive Sirius is. Or he could be slow or super bitter and believe that Sirius wasn't punished at all and making James Head-Boy just adds insult to injury to the whole 'life-debt' thing. But hey, who cares about DD, that Gryffindor-loving, anti-dark arts, muggle-loving fool. Lord Voldemort believes that Snape was treated unfairly and coincidently has a position for him in his organization. Maybe, for once, Snape will have some respect. SophineClaire--- *Though Lupin is the real victim in this whole debatacle, imagine if we iserted Imperious!Sirius into the equation and the whole Prank was just a plot by Voldemort to lure Snape over to the Dark Side. We all know that Tom Riddle was the head of house for Slytherin during MMWP days ;-), why else would DD tell Harry " Not everyone knows that Tom Riddle and Voldemort are the same person...". Who needs Karkaroff to seduce Snape with 'wine'* From jsimons at wam.umd.edu Fri Nov 22 18:36:26 2002 From: jsimons at wam.umd.edu (jomamaumd) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:36:26 -0000 Subject: Broad Strokes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46981 I am new to this list, and I couldn't believe it when I read that some of you think Dumbledore would be evil. I did consider this viewpoint to convince myself I wasn't being naive, but I still find it completely ludicrous. To paraphrase a Jason Isaacs interview where he discussed how he would play Lucius on-screen, "This being a children's series, Rowling seems to paint her characters in decidedly broad strokes." Now, granted, the books have become less child-oriented recently, but I still believe Isaacs is on the right track. Rowling seems to be an author, who, like Tolkien before her, conforms to archetypes and has firm ideas about "good" and "evil." Now, aside from the characters whose loyalties we were meant to question - Snape, Sirius, Karkaroff, et al - all of the main characters have been vividly painted as as one extreme or the other. We are given numerous examples of Lucius's malice, for instance, and just as many, I believe, of Dumbledore's unadulterated goodness. I admit I was questioning this "broad strokes" theory for a while in relation to Draco. He seemed to me to be the only character who could possibly be redeemed. But on the train, after the resurrection of Voldemort, his choice of sides was clearly displayed, and can only be taken as an blatant statement of his evilness. Thus it seems to me that all of Rowling's main characters are clearly painted as being on one side of the line or the other. I am eager to hear your dissenting opinions. - jomama From kela_bit at netvision.net.il Fri Nov 22 19:25:39 2002 From: kela_bit at netvision.net.il (Klei) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 21:25:39 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Colin's camera, Myrtle's glasses / half-creatures like Hagrid (was: Serpents and Perseltongue) References: <20021121080247.59993.qmail@web40312.mail.yahoo.com> <3DDCD73D.F07EAB45@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <3DDE84B3.8050003@netvision.net.il> No: HPFGUIDX 46982 jazmyn wrote: > Why do people assume that Colin's camera was a muggle one? He might > have gotten it in Diagon Alley and opening the back of it might be the > normal way to retrieve the pictures as it might not even use 'film' in > the same way as a muggle camera and might have had something that > converted into those moving photos... Colin says in the book (CoS) that it's a normal camera and that the film is developed with aspecial solution. Grey Wolf wrote: > Grouping half-creatures with their non-human parents *is*, however, an > error. From the examples so far, it seems that half-giants have no > problem controlling their natures and thus they should be offered a > place in the beings, since they have shown the capacity to understand > and follow laws. I don't think so. Does Hagrid follow the law? Andrea Lee wrote to me: >you wrote: >>I think they don't have a language, they just sound > > >odd above water. > >Ah, but if you would READ GoF, there are several >references to the language mermish. > I read GoF. It's just that it's 660 pages and I read it about 3 months ago. I cannot remember everything correctly. So I made a mistake. Didn't you ever say something that was anti-canon in this list? And I *have* read the FAQ and hbfile, thank you. *** Finally! I just read 131 posts because the last two days I didn't have much time :-) Now I can read *new* posts for once *** Katsmall the Wise kela_bit at netvision.net.il [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sgarfio at yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 20:36:01 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:36:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville's ears (WAS: Winky's dismissal and wands) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021122203601.62536.qmail@web21405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46983 Finwitch wrote: > So well, I think that house-elves would harm others or themselves if > they were given wands much worse than Neville turning his ears into > cactuses. Okay, *really* minor point here, but this has been mentioned a few times this week, and I was reading this part last night and that's not what happened. Neville was attempting a "simple Switching Spell" and transplanted his ears *onto* a cactus. He did not Transfigure his ears into cactuses (or cacti - but as a child in Arizona, people there always said "cactuses", and after all, they should know ). Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From bobbippon at hotmail.com Fri Nov 22 20:52:00 2002 From: bobbippon at hotmail.com (jomamaumd) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:52:00 -0000 Subject: Snape IS a vampire Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46984 Snape IS a vampire - there's no doubt about it!! If you don't believe it, check out the two most solid pieces of evidence - JKR's own sketch of him with the upturned collar (very Dracula-esque), and the AOL chat where she says "Because I know all about Snape, and he wasn't about to put on a turban" (which would've had garlic underneath it). There's no contest!! - jomama From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 21:19:28 2002 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 21:19:28 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46985 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Heidi Tandy" wrote: you can learn more in the Beastiary at Steve's famous Lexicon - http://www.i2k.net/svanderark/lexicon(hope I got that right - working from memory here). The address is http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon If you're looking for information about Crookshanks, use this link to go right to the page about him: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/crookshanks.html You'll find Kneazles listed in the Bestiary, which you can go to using this link: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/bestiary.html Steve From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Nov 22 21:46:45 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:46:45 EST Subject: Snape IS a vampire (Not) /Apology to Wendy Message-ID: <12.291e1e87.2b0fffc5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46986 Jomama: > Snape IS a vampire - there's no doubt about it!! If you don't > believe it, check out the two most solid pieces of evidence - JKR's > own sketch of him with the upturned collar (very Dracula-esque), and > the AOL chat where she says "Because I know all about Snape, and he > wasn't about to put on a turban" (which would've had garlic > underneath it). There's no contest!! > Sorry, I'm not convinced by this evidence. First of all, it's obvious that JKR uses a lot of bat-like, vampiric imagery around Snape. Whilst it may be indicating just what you suggest, it may also be typical JKR misdirection. Secondly, the quote, which is just as you say, with no added frills (although the question asked, "Why did you make Quirrell the bad guy instead of Snape" has nothing to do with vampires) can only be interpreted as evidence that he *is* a vampire if we presume that JKR is indulging in Crouchian double-speak. She could be, but the surface reading is surely that Snape would *not* share his head (or any other part of his body) with Voldemort. Either that or it offended his fashion sense. Wouldn't go with those black robes, really, would it? Not one for looking ridiculous, our Severus. And we don't know that Quirrell's turban *did* contain garlic - wasn't the smell Evil Noxious Vapour!Voldemort? And if it *were* garlic and you accept the 'vampires can't tolerate garlic' theory as is implied, then how did Snape get so close to Quirrell? ................... While we're on the subject of Snape sharing his body with Voldemort, I feel I owe an apology to Wendy. I didn't mean to imply that you were an active Voldemort/Snape SHIPper, in the sense of Snape being, err, *willing*. And there's no need to worry about being perceived as Bent: as the Cheshire cat might have said, "We're all Bent here". Well, a lot of us. OK, some of us. Well, those as'll admit it. ;-) In fact we're probably merely projecting and you're not Bent at all. Shame, really. Eloise (Who is actually terribly afraid that JKR will reveal that Snape *is* a vampire in Book 7 - do you see what you've done to me, Pippin? - and who will have to cope by declaring her *wrong*.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cindysphynx at comcast.net Fri Nov 22 21:49:43 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 21:49:43 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Dead Man Walking (WAS Assassin!Snape and Karkaroff's Big Mistake) In-Reply-To: <15b.17dca54c.2b0fa5e2@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46987 "What's going on in here?" Cindy demanded as she swung open the front doors to the Tavern. "George paged me -? something about Assassin!Snape coming under attack. Not 20 minutes ago I proved Assassin!Snape as canon fact, and now there's a *rebellion* going on in here?" She marched over to a freshly scrubbed table where Charis and Derannimer had just ordered another round of drinks. Just then, the Tavern door burst open and a man flung himself inside, banging the door shut behind himself so hard that a single pane of glass shattered and tinkled to the ground. He wore sleek silver furs to match his graying hair, but his furs were heavily soiled and his hair was oddly disheveled. He looked like he hadn't slept well in weeks. He groped for the deadbolt, flipped it to the locked position, and turned to the business of extinguishing the torches that provided the only light. "What do you think you're doing?" demanded George, hurrying from behind the bar to confront the man. "You must hide me! I am in grave danger!" the man said, and Cindy could detect a fruity, unctuous tone despite his state of raw panic. "Karkaroff?" Cindy asked in disbelief. "Igor Karkaroff?" "Yes!" Karkaroff hissed. "You must hide me immediately. He-Who- Must-Be-Named has returned and he is after me. He is going to kill me!" He began slamming the window shutters closed, peering carefully outside as he went. "What do you keep in the basement?" he asked George. "Yellow flags, mostly." "Good. That sounds comfortable. I will make my home there, then." "Uh, Karkaroff, we were just talking about you," Cindy said, swinging her arm around his shoulders and guiding him to the table. "Most of us are fairly confident that you're right and Voldemort is planning to kill you. You rank right up there with Hagrid as characters who won't see the last page of OoP. But we seem to be split on the means through which you will depart this earth. Do you think you have a minute to help us out here?" "Are you *mad?!*" Karkaroff breathed. "No really, maybe you can shed some light on all of this," Cindy said. "Look at it this way. Maybe you'll learn something that will help you escape." At this, Karkaroff began to stroke his goatee thoughtfully. He glanced around and seemed comforted to find the Tavern filled with a bunch of unarmed theorists. He took note of Avery in the corner, but appeared unconcerned by the presence of a fellow DE SYCOPHANT. "What have you been discussing?" he asked eventually. He pushed several empty glasses aside and eased himself into an empty chair. "See, I have this theory that Dumbledore and Snape have cooked up a plan to assassinate you ?-" "Oh, lordie!" Karkaroff moaned, his head in his hands. "No wait. But lots of people think I'm wrong. Charis and Derannimer don't think Snape will return to spying at all." "That's right," said Charis Julia confidently. "I don't like it as a plot twist. It's way less than simple. It's *obvious.* After all, even the most elementary, ordinary, non?obsessive readers will have automatically picked up on that one." "It's even worse than that," Derannimer added. "*Harry* has picked up on that one. GOF, p. 721 'Snape had turned spy against Voldemort, "at great personal risk." Was that the job he had taken up again?' The fact that Harry actually thinks of it also renders it deeply *unlikely*. If Snape was really going back as a spy, JKR would never have let Harry ponder the notion, and certainly not so prominently. I'm all with you here; Snape the Spy is a red herring." "But see, Igor -? do you mind if I call you 'Igor'?" Cindy asked. Karkaroff nodded vacantly, his eyes glassy. "I was proposing that the way Snape can return to spying is by capturing you and either killing you himself or delivering you to your evil master. Charis and Derannimer are thinking that if the author tells us something very clearly, then we shouldn't believe it. "I think there's a problem with approaching the fine art of canon predictions in that fashion. For instance, the author strongly implies that Hagrid will go on a mission with the Giants, right? She also strongly implies that Sirius will go to Lupin. Are you two saying that that won't happen in OoP because it is too obvious?" Charis and Derannimer looked at each other, puzzled looks on their faces. "No, if the author hints strongly at something in the books about developments in a future book, she tends to be true to her word. PoA is a perfect example of this. 'The Dark Lord will rise again with his servant's aid, greater and more terrible than he ever was.' And that is exactly what happened in GoF, right? JKR doesn't mind telling us what will happen from one book to the next, but she is quite sneaky about never telling us *how* it will happen. So the smart money says that Hagrid will go on some sort of mission to the Giants, that Sirius will round up the old crowd and Snape will spy for Voldemort. The question, ladies, is whether he is going to have to slaughter Igor here to make it happen?" "Slaughter? . . . Igor?" Karkaroff gulped. He beckoned George to bring him a glass of vodka. Charis Julia shook her head, her arms folded across her chest. "Well, you still haven't convinced me that Dumbledore would do something so awful. Since we know that Dumbledore went through the whole of Vold War I without resorting to his Dark Powers and yet *still* was the only wizard that Voldemort feared, why then should we assume that he could not defeat Grindewald too ? who was, after all, less powerful? without resorting to bland murder?" "Actually," Cindy began, "I don't think we can assume Dumbledore defeated Grindewald without resorting to murder. McGonagall implies Dumbledore is too noble to use Dark Magic, but that doesn't mean he hasn't killed anyone. There are lots of ways to kill someone without using an Unforgivable Curse. You can strangle them with the rope trick. Or levitate them and bash them down on their head again and again -?" "I think I'm going to be sick . . . " Karkaroff mumbled. "-- and it also doesn't mean that Dumbledore hasn't *ordered* the killing of anyone. If Dumbledore was the field general in a war on Grindewald, then he may have ordered many missions in which the natural result was the murder of the enemy. We just don't know, really." "No, Snape won't kill Igor because Snape has a moral code of his own, you know. My Snape would have qualms about murdering," Charis insisted. "Severus Snape? Scruples?" Karkaroff broke in. "The only thing standing between me and certain death is whether *Severus Snape* has scruples? Well, that's it then. I'm as good as dead." "I'm afraid I'm with Igor on this one," Cindy said evenly. "Let's not forget that Snape became a DE of his own free will. That makes him the only member of Dumbledore's team who has likely used Dark Magic and done evil things, at least for a while. Look at it this way. Snape is about to become a soldier in war. Soldiers in war kill all the time on missions. Sometimes they are sent in to ambush or assassinate someone. I don't know whether they feel anything when they are ordered to do these things. But they do what they must do. Are you really proposing ConscientiousObjector! Snape? 'Cause I want none of that." "I could live with ConscientousObjector!Snape," Karkaroff interjected. "Nah, I'm going with ReluctantSoldier!Snape," Cindy said. "But I'll make you a deal. You can have all the qualms you like. I never said Snape would relish killing Karkaroff, so qualms are fine with me." "Can we maybe stop using the words 'kill' and 'Karkaroff' in the same sentence?" Karkaroff said weakly. "That's just plain rude." Judy approached the table timidly and slipped into the last empty chair next to Karkaroff. "Uh, Igor?" "Yes?" "I was wondering if you might answer a question for me. See, I have this idea that Snape doesn't have to kill you to convince Voldemort that he hasn't been disloyal and has in fact been spying for Voldemort all along." "A theory that means Snape won't kill me? Oh, please explain!" Karkaroff said, looking deeply interested. "I think Snape could get back into his good graces by pretending to have been fooling Dumbledore all along. That means that if Snape can just be persuasive enough, you can continue to live in hiding. Do you like it?" Karkaroff twisted his upper body toward Judy, placed both of his hands on the side of her head, and kissed her full on the mouth. "You are a goddess, madam!" he cried. "You have saved me from certain death at the hands of Severus Snape." "Not so fast, Igor," Cindy said brightly. "There's not much direct canon about how Voldemort feels about Snape, but there is very good reason to think Voldemort does *not* in fact trust Snape in GoF. By GoF, Voldemort knows Snape is at Hogwarts. Crouch Jr. could certainly use all the help he could get to make sure the plan to kidnap Harry worked. Yet Crouch Jr. does *not* seek Snape out for assistance, does he? That means that, from Snape and Dumbledore's perspective, Voldemort harbors some suspicions about Snape. They don't know if Voldemort is only a little bit suspicious or a lot suspicious, but they do know that Voldemort isn't 100% convinced that Snape is spying for Dumbledore." "I'm *doomed!*" moaned Karkaroff, sliding lower in his seat. "Yeah, I think so," Cindy said cheerfully. "So the question becomes how exactly you will meet your maker, Igor. Now, Judy here thinks that Voldemort will order Snape to kill you because Voldemort has said that his erstwhile followers will have to make up for not helping him during the long years that he was VaporMort. He made Peter prove his loyalty by cutting off his own hand. So Voldemort will make Snape do something awful in killing you, Igor." Karkaroff turned to Judy, his eyes narrowed. "I thought you were trying to *help.*" "Now me, I favor one of the Assassin!Snape variants. Initially, I was going with 'The Devil Made Me Do It' ?- you know, Voldemort orders your execution and Snape obliges. But now I think I'm changing my mind. I think I want to switch my allegiance to 'Bring Him In Alive.'" "Oh, finally some *good* news!" Karkaroff sighed in relief. "Oh, don't get too comfortable, Igor. 'Bring Him In Alive' is far from easy living from your perspective, but we don't have to get into that right now. See, I think Snape will bring you in alive of his own accord, with no prior mandate from Voldemort." Eloise wedged herself into the circle at Cindy's elbow. "I don't know about Assassin!Snape, Cindy," she said. "I mean, if *I* were Voldemort and this fellow Snape came worming his way back, claiming he's never left me and I wanted him to prove his loyalty...... would I send him after Karkaroff? What would that prove? Only that Snape was willing to kill a man against whom I could only expect him to hold a grudge. Only that he would kill a man whom some of you agree even Dumbledore might regard as disposable." "Disposable?" Karkaroff echoed dimly. "That's a very good point, Eloise," replied Cindy. "If the whole point of having Snape murder Igor here in cold blood is to convince Voldemort of his loyalty, then Snape can't simply be carrying out Voldemort's orders. No, Snape has to be showing some *initiative.* That's important. So Snape shows up with Igor of his own accord, dumps him on the ground, and is able to explain that, just as always, he is doing Voldemort's will even when Voldemort has not given him explicit instructions. That, more than anything, will show Voldemort that Snape really has been in Voldemort's service all these years." "It's my turn to ask a question. What happens when I'm brought back to Voldemort alive?" Karkaroff asked hopefully. "I want to know." The other theorists all avoided Karkaroff's gaze, suddenly intrigued by the woodwork on the ceiling or fiddling with their clothing. The awkward silence dragged on far too long. "Maybe it's best not to discuss it," Cindy said finally. ************ Cindy ************ Hypothetic Alley: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hypotheticalley.html Inish Alley: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 22 22:03:46 2002 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:03:46 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape IS a vampire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021122160219.07192860@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46988 As the clock struck 08:52 PM 11/22/2002 +0000, jomamaumd took pen in hand and wrote: >Snape IS a vampire - there's no doubt about it!! If you don't >believe it, check out the two most solid pieces of evidence - JKR's >own sketch of him with the upturned collar (very Dracula-esque), and >the AOL chat where she says "Because I know all about Snape, and he >wasn't about to put on a turban" (which would've had garlic >underneath it). There's no contest!! So, in other words, there is NO canon evidence that Snape is a vampire. Jim From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Fri Nov 22 22:17:40 2002 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:17:40 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quirrellmort knew about Snape (was: TimeTurner!Snap... Message-ID: <55.31dee7ee.2b100704@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46989 Barb: > Given this very recent evidence of Snape's loyalties, I don't think his > showing up in the graveyard would have convinced Voldemort that Snape had > had a change of heart, and he probably would have just killed him on the > spot, or put Cruciatus on him, at the very least, to punish him for ever > even considering siding with Dumbledore instead of him. Perhaps Voldemort and the Other Death Eaters new Snape was a double agent, but not that he was a false double agent for Voldemort. I can imagine Snape passing information to both sides, but just enough to let Voldemort THINK he's pretending to be loyal to Dumbledore instead of him. As for the whole Quirrell thing. Well, I'm 99.99999% sure that he didn't know Voldemort was inside Quirrell until the end. He probably thought Quirrell was trying to get the stone for himself. If LV brings it up he could easily say, "Had I known I wouldn't have tried to stop him." As for the saving Potter at the Quidditch match thing...Snape owed a debt to James which he wasn't able to repay because he died. So, as we all know, he decided to make good by helping James's son. Maybe in the wizard world it works like it sometimes does on TV/in movies. "You saved my life. I saved yours. Let's call it even." Maybe this means Snape's debt to the Potter's is fulfilled. I think Voldemort would be glad to learn that he doesn't have yet another 'servant' in debt to Harry Potter. ^_^ ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Fri Nov 22 22:17:57 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 23:17:57 +0100 (CET) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Morality and Efficiency (Was killerbeasts, etc) In-Reply-To: <177.124027f6.2b0e6b1c@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021122221757.48412.qmail@web21502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46990 Wendy wrote: ?In fact, we've seen Dumbledore do things which were seemingly the OPPOSITE of efficient - all the shenanigans regarding the protection on the Philosopher's Stone, for example. Oh, perhaps this was the most efficient way to make sure Harry wandered around the castle enough to find all the clues to get down there and face Quirrelmort, thereby learning and growing in the process. But on the surface, as far as the stone goes, highly inefficient. And, while I must admit to being mostly ignorant about MAGIC DISHWASHER (not have yet had a chance to read the new megapost), from what I know of it, it doesn't seem particularly efficient, either.? This is an interesting comment about the several ordeals Harry has to face in PS/SS. Actually, I don?t know if Dumbledore really wanted to send Harry facing Quirrel and Voldemort on the purpose of making him? learning and growing in the process? as Wendy wrote, though it is a possibility (and this is NOT a post refuting MAGIC DISHWASHER). Nevertheless, we must consider carefully what Wendy calls ?the shenanigans regarding the protection on the Philosopher?s Stone?. I?m nearly sure they are more than what they seem to be at first reading, that is to say new events in the story. I mean, they probably give us a summary of the whole series. There are seven ordeals on the way to the Stone, seven books and seven stages in Harry?s initiatory journey. 1) The Three-headed Dog = Book1 Of course, everyone has noticed yet that there are many triple elements in the first story; it?s usual in fairytales. For example: JKR mentions 3 ?odd things? that happen to Harry (UK paperback, p23); Harry gets his letters in 3 different places; at Ollivander?s, JKR gives us the composition of 3 wands before Harry finally finds the suitable one, etc. Fluffy is not only one more example of ?triplication?; it?s also a reflection of the ordeal Harry has to get through in the first book: an enemy with three faces. Professor Quirrel does have three faces: the bullied teacher?s one, the Death Eater?s one, and Voldemort?s one. Just like Fluffy. It also works if you consider that the kid has to face three kinds of hatred: one he inherited from his parents (the Dursleys and Snape), one generated by jealousy or/and disappointment (Draco), and one connected with his own mystery (Voldemort). 2) The Devil?s Snare = Book 2 JKR writes that the Devil?s Snare has ?snake-like tendrils? (op. cit.,p 201), and if you look how it behaves, you can see it just acts the same way as a boa. Now, the second book happens to be based on a snare. Whoever is the mastermind of the plot, he acts in order to corner Harry, and kill him. If everybody believes he is guilty of petrifying the students, that?s a chance of getting him expelled, so he?s deprived of Hogwarts? safety. If Dumbledore gives up the school, Harry loses his protection, so it?s easier to kill him. The whole plot has one purpose: making Harry loose his protections, making him find the way to the Chamber of Secrets with the hope that he could clean his own name, Hagrid?s, and save his friends. And there, killing him. 3) The Flying Keys = Book 3 Among all the keys, only one can open the door. If he wants to catch it, Harry has to show he is a good Seeker, as JKR points it (op.cit.,p 203). What a coincidence, in the third book Harry is given the Marauder?s Map, which is like a key he can use to leave the school b the secret passageways. There?s one of the Whomping Willow?s roots that you can use as a key to enter the passageway to the Shrieking Shack. Much more, Harry?s Seeker position is determining in the story: if he wants to keep on playing Quidditch, he has to learn the Patronus Charm, his greatest achievement in the book. Thanks to his Patronus, he can save Sirius?s life, and assimilate his father?s legacy. 4) The Chessboard = Book 4 Harry has to move ?across the room? where the board is (op.cit., p 204). Ron leads the game, and declares: ?You?ve got to make some sacrifices? (p 205). Playing as a knight, Ron sacrifices himself to make Harry win the game. Now look at the fourth book: in the last Task, Harry has to move across a maze, as he had to do on the chessboard. Cedric, when he tells him he wants to share the victory, behaves like a knight and sacrifices his own glory. Pettigrew kills him. Then Harry himself has to give some of his own blood to Voldemort. It?s a painful defeat, even if Harry manages to win the duel with Voldemort and escape. But there?s Dumbledore?s so many debated ?gleam of triumph? GoF could mean that there?s no victory without one or several sacrifices. Well, until that point, it was rather easy, for we have the books handy. The continuation can only be speculation. It?s anyone?s bet; nevertheless, I go on. 5) The Cold out Troll = Book 5 There?s no ordeal because Quirrell ?did the job? previously. Does it mean that in OotP (please, JKR ), Harry will receive some unexpected help (Peter, Draco )? We all know that some of the main characters is going to die; will it be saving the day for Harry? On another hand, the Troll was formerly a protection to the Stone, and Harry?s enemy destroyed it. Will Harry loose one more protection? 6) The Seven Bottles = Book 6 It?s a logic puzzle, based on poisons and antidotes, which creator is Snape. Do we have to expect a ?poison affair? in the sixth book? It would fit, if we consider the importance JKR gives to the potions class and particularly to making antidotes. And also there is Snape?s introduction to his class, when he bullies Harry asking him about some ingredients. Will the Draught of Living Death play a part in the story (as a delusion, for example)? A bezoar is a powerful antidote, and aconite is at the same time a poison and an antidote.That could bring many perspectives 7) The Mirror of Erised = Book 7 When he faces that last ordeal, Harry faces himself. Would it mean that the key of the seventh book would be Harry versus Harry?It?s not difficult to predict that his last battle will deal with important choices he will have to make. He will probably have to face his own consciousness, his own heart and soul, that is to say, his own identity. With or without a mirror,he will have to face the scar Phew! That?s it. Maybe it has been debated yet; if it has been, I apologize. Iris --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From judyshapiro at directvinternet.com Fri Nov 22 22:20:24 2002 From: judyshapiro at directvinternet.com (Judy) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:20:24 -0000 Subject: TBAY : Snape & Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46991 [In our last episode, Wendy had just presented her theory that Voldemort would take Snape back because Voldemort was 'fond' of Snape, in a very specific way....] ...Judy leaped up and gasped in shock. A Voldemort/Snape shipper in the Tavern? Then slowly, she sat back down. "This is my kind of place," she said. Wendy looked horrified. "My comments were in no way meant to suggest a Snape/Voldemort SHIP. Notice that I wrote that Severus might not have been able to defend himself against Voldemort's attentions - implying that he would *not* have chosen nor wanted those attentions, but didn't have had the strength of will or worldliness or whatever to know how to refuse." Judy jotted down some of what Wendy was saying: "might have sounded as though Snape was a willing and eager participant in the whole thing, but didn't mean it that way... Wendy never meant to imply that Snape has *warm* feelings for Voldemort -- probably quite the opposite. IT'S NOT A SHIP! -- underage Snape -- it's abuse and exploitation." Judy looked up at Wendy. "I see what you are saying now! I stand corrected. I was thinking of the idea that Voldemort and Snape had become 'fond' of each other sometime after Snape had already joined the Death Eaters. You didn't pull me into the conversation until the second part of your post, so I missed the part where you said Snape might have been quite young at the time Voldemort took an interest in him.[1] I definitely agree, what you are describing here is abuse, *not* a ship. In fact, if Voldemort had pressured a young Snape into a sexual relationship, that would be a reason for Snape to later turn against him, when Snape grew older and realized how exploitative the relationship had been. This was the sort of thing I had in mind when I said that if Karkaroff had sexually exploited a teenage Snape, that would be a reason for Snape to resent or even hate him later, and JKR could use the exploitation as a reason for Snape to be willing to kill Karkaroff. However, I don't really think that Snape was sexually exploited by Voldemort, so I doubt that was Snape's reason for leaving the Death Eaters." Judy nodded her head, and then went on. "And of *course*, by saying 'this is my kind of place', I didn't mean that I LIKED the idea of a Voldemort/Snape ship." (She laughed nervously.) "Of course not! I just meant that, um, er, I was impressed by the *creativity* of those here in the Tavern! Yes, that's it! It's the creativity of that theory that, ah, *impressed* me!" She then took a long drink of tea and stared intently at her notes. ~~~ Judy, who didn't mean to imply that the *real* Wendy was a Voldemort/Snape shipper -- sorry, Wendy! *********************** [1] Well, Judy Serenity (the character) wasn't in the conversation at the time. See Message 46879. The real Judy (the author) forgot that Wendy had referred to Snape as being quite young, and maybe not even willing. Or, more likely, this idea was just so unpleasant that I *repressed* it. And actually, the whole idea of Voldemort being attracted to Snape squicks me out. From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Fri Nov 22 22:24:16 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 23:24:16 +0100 (CET) Subject: The Seven Ordeals (Re: [HPforGrownups] Morality and Efficiency) In-Reply-To: <177.124027f6.2b0e6b1c@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021122222416.76348.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46992 Wendy wrote: ?In fact, we've seen Dumbledore do things which were seemingly the OPPOSITE of efficient - all the shenanigans regarding the protection on the Philosopher's Stone, for example. Oh, perhaps this was the most efficient way to make sure Harry wandered around the castle enough to find all the clues to get down there and face Quirrelmort, thereby learning and growing in the process. But on the surface, as far as the stone goes, highly inefficient. And, while I must admit to being mostly ignorant about MAGIC DISHWASHER (not have yet had a chance to read the new megapost), from what I know of it, it doesn't seem particularly efficient, either.? This is an interesting comment about the several ordeals Harry has to face in PS/SS. Actually, I don?t know if Dumbledore really wanted to send Harry facing Quirrel and Voldemort on the purpose of making him? learning and growing in the process? as Wendy wrote, though it is a possibility (and this is NOT a post refuting MAGIC DISHWASHER). Nevertheless, we must consider carefully what Wendy calls ?the shenanigans regarding the protection on the Philosopher?s Stone?. I?m nearly sure they are more than what they seem to be at first reading, that is to say new events in the story. I mean, they probably give us a summary of the whole series. There are seven ordeals on the way to the Stone, seven books and seven stages in Harry?s initiatory journey. 1) The Three-headed Dog = Book1 Of course, everyone has noticed yet that there are many triple elements in the first story; it?s usual in fairytales. For example: JKR mentions 3 ?odd things? that happen to Harry (UK paperback, p23); Harry gets his letters in 3 different places; at Ollivander?s, JKR gives us the composition of 3 wands before Harry finally finds the suitable one, etc. Fluffy is not only one more example of ?triplication?; it?s also a reflection of the ordeal Harry has to get through in the first book: an enemy with three faces. Professor Quirrel does have three faces: the bullied teacher?s one, the Death Eater?s one, and Voldemort?s one. Just like Fluffy. It also works if you consider that the kid has to face three kinds of hatred: one he inherited from his parents (the Dursleys and Snape), one generated by jealousy or/and disappointment (Draco), and one connected with his own mystery (Voldemort). 2) The Devil?s Snare = Book 2 JKR writes that the Devil?s Snare has ?snake-like tendrils? (op. cit.,p 201), and if you look how it behaves, you can see it just acts the same way as a boa. Now, the second book happens to be based on a snare, and on snakes. Whoever is the mastermind of the plot, he acts in order to corner Harry, and kill him. If everybody believes he is guilty of petrifying the students, that?s a chance of getting him expelled, so he?s deprived of Hogwarts? safety. If Dumbledore gives up the school, Harry loses his protection, so it?s easier to kill him. The whole plot has one purpose: making Harry loose his protections, making him find the way to the Chamber of Secrets with the hope that he could clean his own name, Hagrid?s, and save his friends. And there, killing him. 3) The Flying Keys = Book 3 Among all the keys, only one can open the door. If he wants to catch it, Harry has to show he is a good Seeker, as JKR points it (op.cit.,p 203). What a coincidence, in the third book Harry is given the Marauder?s Map, which is like a key he can use to leave the school b the secret passageways. There?s one of the Whomping Willow?s roots that you can use as a key to enter the passageway to the Shrieking Shack. Much more, Harry?s Seeker position is determining in the story: if he wants to keep on playing Quidditch, he has to learn the Patronus Charm, his greatest achievement in the book. Thanks to his Patronus, he can save Sirius?s life, and assimilate his father?s legacy. 4) The Chessboard = Book 4 Harry has to move ?across the room? where the board is (op.cit., p 204). Ron leads the game, and declares: ?You?ve got to make some sacrifices? (p 205). Playing as a knight, Ron sacrifices himself to make Harry win the game. Now look at the fourth book: in the last Task, Harry has to move across a maze, as he had to do on the chessboard. Cedric, when he tells him he wants to share the victory, behaves like a knight and sacrifices his own glory. Pettigrew kills him. Then Harry himself has to give some of his own blood to Voldemort. It?s a painful defeat, even if Harry manages to win the duel with Voldemort and escape. But there?s Dumbledore?s so many debated ?gleam of triumph? GoF could mean that there?s no victory without one or several sacrifices. Well, until that point, it was rather easy, for we have the books handy. The continuation can only be speculation. It?s anyone?s bet; nevertheless, I go on. 5) The Cold out Troll = Book 5 There?s no ordeal because Quirrell ?did the job? previously. Does it mean that in OotP (please, JKR ), Harry will receive some unexpected help (Peter, Draco )? We all know that some of the main characters is going to die; will it be saving the day for Harry? On another hand, the Troll was formerly a protection to the Stone, and Harry?s enemy destroyed it. Will Harry loose one more protection? 6) The Seven Bottles = Book 6 It?s a logic puzzle, based on poisons and antidotes, which creator is Snape. Do we have to expect a ?poison affair? in the sixth book? It would fit, if we consider the importance JKR gives to the potions class and particularly to making antidotes. And also there is Snape?s introduction to his class, when he bullies Harry asking him about some ingredients. Will the Draught of Living Death play a part in the story (as a delusion, for example)? A bezoar is a powerful antidote, and aconite is at the same time a poison and an antidote.That could bring many perspectives 7) The Mirror of Erised = Book 7 When he faces that last ordeal, Harry faces himself.Would it mean that the key of the seventh book would be Harry versus Harry? It?s not difficult to predict that his last battle will deal with important choices he will have to make. He will probably have to face his own consciousness, his own heart and soul, that is to say, his own identity. With or without a mirror,he will have to face the scar Phew! That?s it. Maybe it has been debated yet; if it has been, I apologize. Iris --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From abigailnus at yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 23:41:54 2002 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 23:41:54 -0000 Subject: Dishwasher!Dumbledore & Assassin!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46993 [Note: This post was written several hours ago and could not beposted due to internet connection issues. I see that several newposts on Assassin!Snape in it's various forms have since appeared,so if any of them cover the issues raised in this post I apologize.] Abigail has done it again. There she was, firing off obscure comments on a relatively sedate subject from the safety of her RL home, when all of a sudden, she was whisked off to The Pink Flamingo Bar! The place is a mess. George and his sister Diana are behind the bar, looking decidedly wilted as they struggle to fill everyone's drink orders. Avery is crouching in the corner, huddled into a fetal position and singing nursery rhymes to himself in a soft voice. Cindy, Charis Julia and Cabaret!Snape are on a table, singing a Bob Fosse medley. A group of excited TBAY newbies is waving Yellow Flags willy-nilly. In a corner booth, Assassin!Snape, Saboteur!Snape, SoulSucked!Snape and TimeTurner!Snape are locked in conversation, their dark heads bent over a hit list that is getting longer by the minute. Of course, Abigail has only a few brain cells with which to notice all this commotion, because right now her attention is almost completely devoted to the large, furry creature currently occupying most of her field of vision. It seemed pretty easy to exchange volleys with Grey Wolf in RL, but here in TBAY... Well, let's just say there's a teeth issue. "I find," Grey Wolf rumbles, "that your suggestion that believing in MAGIC DISHWASHER is somehow not playing fair is grounded less in logic and more in spite." Abigail frowns. "I'm sorry if anything I said sounded spitefull," she says, "it certainly wasn't meant that way. But unfortunately, I do stand by my original statement. Unless I've misconstrued your own words, Grey Wolf?" "My own words?" Grey Wolf seems surprised, but not overly upset, so Abigail soldiers on. She pulls from her backpack a dusty tome and blows on it so that the insciption "Post #45165" becomes barely legible. From her coat pocket she removes a pair of pince-nez, and begins to read: >Also, staying far from the theory itself, I have to point out that books can be read in several different levels by different people. You don't have to understand all the levels to like or understand the book (or at least that's what my literature teacher used to say to me). So, children can read the adventures of Harry Potter while the adults read the subtle interactions between the adult characters (read the "deep" discussions on this list for a taste of that). If MAGIC DISHWASHER proves to be true (objective number 2, as Pip said), it won't be spelled out as such: it will have been working in the background, and giving the books realism. But in the end, Harry will have beaten Voldemort and you won't really have to understand how he got there to enjoy it.> "Actually, that's not the source I was hoping to find." Abigail says sadly, "I went through quite a few old posts, because I could quite clearly remember you, Grey Wolf, claiming that, even if the books were to end without MAGIC DISHWASHER being corroborated, you wouldn't consider the theory scrapped. Maybe that particular post was never written and exists only in my fevered imagination, but I think the post I found comes to very nearly the same conclusion. And that's sort of where I dropped off the bandwagon. I have my problems with MD, but until I read this post I thought it was a theory like any other - subject to the whims of Hurricane Jo. I mean, there I am on the Imperius!Arthur trimaran, and I could just as easily say that if at no point does Arthur stand up and say "I, Arthur Weasly, have never been a victim of the Imperius curse" then the theory is sound and true. In fact, I could probably work around Arthur actually getting up and saying something like that - I could say that he was lying. But that is, in my opinion, not playing fair - in order for = Imperius!Arthur to survive, there actually has to be unmitigated corroboration of it in canon." "Now, Grey Wolf, you claim that MD is just as subject to the ravages of Hurricane Jo as the rest of the ships out on the bay, which means that I have either misread this statement, or you've changed your mind since you wrote it, and either way I apologize. In fact, I'd be quite pleased to discover that I am wrong - I may not agree with MAGIC DISHWASHER, but I enjoy arguing against it and feeling that the battle is worth fighting." Grey Wolf is about to reply when the oak doors of The Pink Flamingo Bar swing wide as if blown open by a gust of wind. The full moon rides out from the clouds above the storm-wracked bay just long enough to cast a giant shadow into the room. From far away comes a drawn out shuddering howl, and the faint churning of a magical kitchen appliance. A cloaked figure enters? "Oh look, it's Pip!Squeak!" Says Abigail brightly. Of course, what she's actually thinking is, Help! She looks for an easy avenue of escape as Pip!Squeak... erm... persuades George to make her a cup of tea, but there are very few directions that one can move in when faced with a giant wolf. Her tea secured, Pip!Squeak looks around cheerfully. "Anyone mention a DISHWASHER three times? Because I'm here!" Abigail rather shakily raises her hand. "Me. It was me who mentioned DISHWASHER. I think it was more times than three, though " "Oh, good, Abigail. I'm quite glad that you're here." Pip!Squeak doesn't = seem very glad, though, or at least not the kind of gladness that Abigail would like to see directed at her. "I came to discuss your following asser= tion." She pulls out a portable recorder and presses a button, and Abigail's voice fills the room. > "the fact that MD might strenghen Assassin!Snape - and I'm a bit > surprised to see that no one from the Safe House has showed up at > the TBAY tavern to back Cindy up -." > "DISHWASHER would support Assassin!Snape, would it?" says Pipsqueak, with a dangerous softness to her voice. "Well, yes." Said Abigail, rather blankly, because what she's actually thinking is, Is that what I really sound like?. "I think I have a firm gras= p of MAGIC DISHWASHER." "Not as firm as she thinks, if you ask me" says the Wolf. Abigail gives him a surly look. "Indeed." Says the Pipsqueak. She settles herself firmly on the barstool, takes a swig of the tea, then pauses. Then she launches into a long and very interesting summary of Dishwasher!Dumbledore and Dishwasher!Snape's actions in the first four books which should satisfy any MD novice, at least until Grey Wolf completes his magnum opus (which, since her mastery of the subject has been called into question, Abigail would now quite like to read). Once she's done, she exchanges a few shouted comments with Cindy, including a rather Bent suggestion about Snape killing Dumbledore. So it takes her a few minutes to notice that Abigail is not, as she should be, gazing at her in rapt attention, but= in fact standing at the bar, trying to cadge a free drink off George. "Oh, come on." She's saying. "You're my favorite Snapetheory!" Noticing the the sudden silence, she turns back to Pip!Squeak. "Are you done, then?" "Am I done?" Pip!Squeak asks, shocked. "Weren't you even listening?" "I was listening." Abigail nods. "But I'm not sure you were. Or rather, = I'm not sure that you understood my meaning when I suggested that Assassin!Snape is strenghened by MAGIC DISHWASHER. I think you thought I was suggesting that Dishwasher!Dumbledore engages in morally questionable behaviour, and that he would therefore be in favor of sacrificing Karkarof to further his goals. I suppose I should have anticipated that, because usually on this group, when someone attaches a Dishwasher to anyone, it's meant to signal moral depravity - which is a pity, because I don't think immorality is the central characteristic of Dishwasher!Dumbledore." "You don't?" Pip!Squeak and Grey Wolf ask in unison. "No. If you'll look back at my original fireman analogy, I never suggested that the fireman is wrong. The house is most certainly going to burn down - it has to be prematurely dealt with. I was questioning the logic of his assumptions, wondering if there wasn't some way to ensure that the burn be more controlled. Basically, if you'll allow me to drop off the analogy, my problem with Dishwasher!Dumbledore is one of logistics - there are simply too many things in his master plan that can and do go wrong - Harry's escape from the graveyard is a matter of sheer luck no matter how you look at it. But that," Abigail pauses for breath, "is not what I came here to discuss. Looking back at MAGIC DISHWASHER, I think that there are two traits that can be firmly attached to Dishwasher!Dumbledore, and they are only tangentially related to morallity." "First, Dishwasher!Dumbledore is a person who believes that the ends justify the means. Whether those means have any restrictions on them is open to interpretation, but I think that the core of MD is based on this assumption. This is the man who will allow Sirius Black to remain a wanted fugitive so that Peter Pettigrew can return to Voldemort, the man who will allow Harry to face a dangerous dark wizard (and whether or not Dumbldore know about the portkey switch, MD stipulates that he was trying to force Voldemort to use Harry's blood for a resurrection spell, which surely would necessitate Harry being in LV's presence at some point) in order to gain an advantage over that wizard. We can sit here and argue all night about whether he is right to make these decisions, but that's not the point. The point is the kind of person Dumbledore is." "And the seond trait?" Pip!Squeak asks, her tea forgotten on the bar. Abigail gulps and soldiers on. "The second point is that Dishwasher!Dumbledore is... a liar." "You had better," Grey Wolf growls, "have some canon to back that up." Pip!Squeak is too shocked to speak, she's just staring at Abigail, white-faced. The bar has gone eerily silent. The four Snapes in the corner booth (and the one dancing on the table) give Abigail four identical stunned expressions. She digs even deeper into her backpack, and removes a dog-eared volume and her pince-nez. "Philospher's Stone." She announces. "Ch. 17, The Man With Two Faces, this is Harry and Dumbledore's conversation in the hospital wing" ------------------------- "'...Well, Voldemort's going to try other ways of coming back, isn't he? I mean, he hasn't gone, has he?' 'No, Harry, he has not. He is still out there somewhere, perhaps looking for another body to share... not being truly alive, he cannot be killed. ... Nevertheless, Harry, while you may only have delayed his return to power, it will merely take someone else who is prepared to fight what seems a losing battle next time - and if he is delayed again, and again, why, he may never return to power.' Harry nodded, but stopped quickly, because it made his head hurt. Then he said, 'Sir, there are some other things I'd like to know, if you can tell me... things I want to know the truth about... ' 'The truth.' Dumbledore sighed. 'It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution. However, I shall answer your questions unless I have a very good reason no to, in which case I beg you'll forgive me. I shall not, of course, lie.'" ------------------------- "But of course he just has." Abigai raises her head and looks Pip!Squeak straight in the eye. "Under MAGIC DISHWASHER, that is, because MD, as I understand, claims that Voldemort's attempt on the Philosopher's Stone was the warning bell in Dumbledore's ear, after which he began to lay the foundation for Voldemort's cotrolled reemergance at the end of GoF. I've even seen DISHWASHER variants in which the Philosopher's Stone ordeal was orchestrated and controlled by Dumbledore. And yet, here he is, musing to Harry about how, if we just bide our time, the menace may never reemerge." "Surely you aren't suggesting." Pip!Squeak cries. "That Dumbledore tell and injured and traumatized 11 year-old his entire intricate plan!" "No, I don't." Replies Abigail calmly, "But I don't expect him to lie either. There was no reason to volounteer that line about how Voldemort may never rise again, not even to comfort Harry. And anyway, this is merely the most glaring instance I can think of for what seems like a series-long phenomenon. Dumbledore presents a certain face to the multitude - the slightly daffy, morally staunch old man. His deputy head, McGonogall, believes him 'too noble' to have fought Voldemort on his own level. Throughout the series he teaches Harry, and the rest of the Hogwarts student body, lessons about charity, second chances, inclusiveness, and the value of a human life. Under MAGIC DISHWASHER, however, it seems that all these lessons have an ulterior motive. Dumbledore speaks to Harry about mercy when in fact he has far more prosaic reasons to keep Peter Pettigrew alive. And of course, none of this deals with his many of lies of omission over the years. What I'm saying is that, under MD, the Dumbledore that has been presented to us, and to Harry, doesn't really exist - the real Dumbledore is a far more human creature. Which is not necessarily bad, by the way, but it does make him a liar." "I believe this discussion had something to do with Assassin!Snape?" Pip!Squeak asks drily. Abigail smiles. "Yes, that did take rather a long time, didn't it? And for such a simple point. You assumed that when I characterized Dishwasher!Dumbledore as supportive of Assassin!Snape it was because A!S is an immoral proposition (and I'm not quite sure where I stand on that particular subject right now, but it's beside the point). = In fact, I was pointing out that, as a person who believes that the ends justify the means, and as someone who is not nearly so noble as he pretends to be, Dumbledore may very well be in support of Karkarof's murder, if it brought him closer to his goal - saving all those people in the burning building. After all, Dumbledore has to have a next move, doesn't he?" "MAGIC DISHWASHER doesn't seek to predict the future." Grey Wolf remarks. "It merely seeks to explain the back story behind the things we've already seen." "Well, that's a problem, isn't it?" Counters Abigail, a bit angrily. "Because if you leave things where they are right now, Dumbldore hasn't done the Wizarding World, or in fact the world in general any favors, has he? Voldmort is back, more powerful than ever, facing an ignorant and apathetic community mostly unaware of his return, ready to bring the world to its knees ( I read a beautiful quote in a review of "Die Another Day" this morning - "the world always has knees in Bond films" ). Dumbledore had better have a plan - he had better have had a plan when he first came up with the whole 'let's bring Voldy back on my terms' idea in the first place. And if his actions in The Parting of the Ways are in furtherance of that plan - which they bloody well should be - then Snape's task, whatever it was, is part of it." The bar is quiet. Grey Wolf and Pip!Squeak are giving Abigail strange looks. To her surprise, she discovers that she's actually quite upset. She takes a deep breath. "Because this isn't a game." She says, quietly. "Real people are going to die. Good people. People who might not have died if Dumbledore hadn't set the world on fire. And sure, maybe those same people would have died anyway if Dumbledore had just bided his time, but maybe they would have lived long lives. And their blood is on Dumbledore's hands even if he isn't responsible for their deaths. Dumbledore owes those people - all the Cedrics, Franks and Berthas out there, all those people who are going to make such great sacrifices even though they don't even know they're in the game - to see the thing through, to put the fire out.He doesn't have *the right* to develop delicate sensibilites just now." Abigail pauses, and then says, "Or are you really going to stand there and tell me that the Dumbledore who presumed to take the fate of his entire community in his hands, who did the math and decided that the lives that are going to be lost to his enemies are worth the untimate rewards, but who, when faced with the necessity of taking some lives himself, refuses to stain his clean hands even if it means endangering his mission - are you going to tell me that this is the *moral* Dumbledore?" The silence in The Pink Flamingo Bar is deafening. Abigail hasn't taken her eyes off Pip!Squeak's. "Cindy?" She calls. "Yeah?" "You can sign me up for Assassin!Snape, but only under MAGIC DISHWASHER." She smiles at Pip!Squeak and Grey Wolf. "So, any thoughts?" Abigail Who was surprised to discover how strongly she feels about this issue, and hopes she hasn't expressed herself *too* stridenlty. From alina at distantplace.net Sat Nov 23 00:02:15 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:02:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape IS a vampire References: Message-ID: <010001c29283$95977f60$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46994 > Snape IS a vampire - there's no doubt about it!! If you don't > believe it, check out the two most solid pieces of evidence - JKR's > own sketch of him with the upturned collar (very Dracula-esque), and > the AOL chat where she says "Because I know all about Snape, and he > wasn't about to put on a turban" (which would've had garlic > underneath it). There's no contest!! > > - jomama I remember the scene where the turban was taken off. I remember not a single piece of garlic falling out. I believe you mean that Fred and George gossiped that there was garlic in that turban because it smelled funny (voldemort most likely) and because Quirrel hung garlic around his office to pretent he's afraid of vampires. One could, I suppose, argue that he used garlic to scare Snape away from his office. On the other hand, if Snape's a vampire who's not afraid of daylight (he was present during several Quidditch matches) then why should he be afraid of garlic? I'm sorry, but your "there's no contest" is extremely premature in my opinion. Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 13/11/2002 From wynnde1 at aol.com Fri Nov 22 22:36:20 2002 From: wynnde1 at aol.com (wynnde1 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:36:20 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another look at the prank... Message-ID: <152.17cf6a1c.2b100b64@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46995 Well, SophineClaire has spun a lovely story to explain the punishments" dealt out by Dumbledore: >What is DD to do? punish both boys. He tells Severus (since he is >the hypothetical Victim) that he won't be suspended and can remain a >prefect but will not be considered for Head Boy. At all. >DD tells Sirius that due to the nature of the prank, he will not be >considered for the Head Boy position. It is too late in the year to >remove him from his prefect position for it to have any real effect >but Sirius will have bigger problems then the loss of the Head Boy >position when he has to explain to Remus Lupin the 'WHYs' of the >incident. While this is tidy and not contradicted by canon as far as I can see, I still have one question: Why didn't Sirius get EXPELLED????? Severus a "hypothetical victim?" Are you kidding? How can you possible compare sneaking around the school and spying with setting up a situation where a fellow student could lose his life????? My word, we've seen enough of Harry, Ron and Hermione sneaking around the school and spying, and no one seems to think anything of it. But when it's Snape, then obviously he's evil and deserved to die? Perhaps there is more to this whole thing than meets the eye - maybe we haven't yet heard the entire truth about what happened, and we will eventually learn that there is some mitigating factor - Imperius!Sirius, for example. But based on what we know canonically: (Prisoner of Azkaban, Chapter 18) "Professor Snape was at school with us. He fought very hard against my appointment to the Defense Against the Dark Arts job. He has been telling Dumbledore all year that I am not to be trusted. He has his reasons . . . you see, Sirius here played a trick on him which nearly killed him, a trick which involved me - " Black made a derisive noise. "It served him right," he sneered. "Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to . . . hoping he could get us expelled . . . " "Severus was very interested in where I went every month." Lupin told Harry, Ron and Hermione. "We were in the same year, you know, and we - er -didnt' like each other very much. He especially disliked James. Jealous, I think, of Jame's talent on the Quidditch field . . . anyway, Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madam Pomfrey one evening as she led me toward the Whomping Willow to transform. Sirius thought it would be - er - amusing to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to t in after me. Well, of course, Snape tried it - if he'd got as far as this house, he'd have met a fully grown werewolf - but your father, who'd heard what Sirius had done, went after Snape and pulled him back, at great risk to his life . . . Snape glimpsed me, though, at the end of the tunnel. He was forbidden by Dumbledore to tell anybody, but from that time on he knew what I was . . . " That is ALL we know in canon. So Severus was spying, like Harry and Co are often wont to do. But we can justify it with Harry and Co, because they are wandering around spying in the service of "good." Right? Well, we don't know what reasons Severus had for the spying he was doing. We are led to believe that he just hated them and wanted them expelled out of spite. But, a bit earlier in the evening, Remus had admitted: "They (James, Peter and Sirius) sneaked out of the castle every month under James' Invisibility Cloak. They transformed . . . Peter, as the smallest, could slip beneath the Willow's attacking branches and touch the knot that freezes it. They would then slip down the tunnel and join me . . . Soon we were leaving the Shrieking Shack and roaming the school grounds and the village by night." When Hermione comments, "What if you'd given the others the slip, and bitten somebody?" Lupin answers, "A thought that still haunts me, " said Lupin heavily. "And there were near misses, many of them. We laughed about them afterwards. We were young, thoughtless - carreid away with our own cleverness." The Marauders were engaging in an activity which was extrememly dangerous to anyone in the vicinity. So an argument can be made that Severus suspected they were up to something dangerous, and just wanted to prove it so he could make certain they stopped before anyone got hurt. Sounds like Harry and Co, doen't it? Perhaps it was purely spite on Snape's part. But that really *doesn't matter* in the long run. Unless we find out some big piece of this picture that we've been missing, Sirius did something which could easily have cost Severus his life. I see absolutely no justification whatsoever for Dumbledore not expelling him immediately.Full stop. Yes, we've seen second chances and we've also seen Harry and Co get away with lots without getting expelled. But they've not gotten away with attempted murder. Or, manslaughter at the very least. And often, this turns into a "which one is nastier - Severus or Sirius" debate. I've started this one myself, with my earlier comments. But in the end that doesn't matter, either. Even if we find out that Snape was murdering people right alongside Malfoy and Avery, it won't change the fact that Sirius did something really awful for which he still shows no remorse. Wendy (Who agrees entirely that Remus is most certainly the person most *victimised* by this whole series of events, and who also knows that probably everyone on this list knows quite well the canon she quoted, but quoted it anyway, as she finds that re-reading things often gives her a clearer perspective than just thinking about them from memory). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Sat Nov 23 00:07:45 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:07:45 EST Subject: Snape IS a vampire (Not) Message-ID: <165.170585ec.2b1020d1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46996 Eloise says; >>First of all, it's obvious that JKR uses a lot of bat-like, vampiric imagery around Snape.<< And not just him! Trelawny is refered to as a bat, Dumbledore is refered to as "That old bat" by his detractors. Rowling seems as fixated on bats as she is on socks... -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Sat Nov 23 00:07:48 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:07:48 EST Subject: TimeTurner!Snape/ Future loyalties Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 46997 Judy Serenity writes; >>But, I don't really see a reason for Snape to time-travel back to the Graveyard scene. Being at the Graveyard really buys him (and the"Light" side) nothing.<< Not even if he feeds Voldemort some supposedly "classified" information on Dumbledore's present projects? Not even though his being at the graveyard *after* Harry gets away will give them some information on what Voldemort's next actions are likely to be (What instructions has he given his followers regarding what he wants them working on before their next meeting?) I think that Snape and Dumbledore have already determined that it will be easier for Snape to mend his bridges than to insert a brand new spy into Voldemort's ranks. As to Dumbeldore's "outing" Snape's prior role as a spy. We still do not know when Snape went to work at Hogwarts. It is not yet clear whether or not Voldemort inserted Snape into Dumbledore's school "as" a spy in the first place. (The school, mind you, not the Order.) If that is the case, Snape was covered whichever side might have won, and we still don't know whose side he is REALLY on. The fact that he has had Lucius Malfoy's continued support suggests that either Voldemort DID insert him as his own spy, and Lucius was high enough up to know it, or Snape managed to sell the "double agent" story to the other ex-DEs of his aquaintance rather more convincingly than Lucius managed to convince the WW as a whole of his "Imperius Defence". If the latter is the case, then sooner or later Voldemort is going to find out and there will be some hard questions asked, but the other DEs aren't likely to rat him out over it. (Speaking of which, Pettigrew was already with the Weasleys by the time of Snape's trial, and I don't know how much about it he ever heard, if anything. This could be one of the bits of information which got past him.) Whose side Snape is REALLY on I *really* think is going to be the $64.000 question for the last three books of the series. Over the first four books, the question was; whose side is Snape on? Acording to the conclusion of book four the answer is pretty conclusively "Dumbledore's". I don't see Rowling leaving it at that. The bar has been raised. Now the question has become; whose side is he REALLY on? I think that in this case there is a very good chance that we are going to be told (and pretty quickly, too, probably in book 5) that Voldemort DID send him to spy within the school. And that in the three remaining books he will continue to take actions which are going to call the matter of his loyalties into question all over again. And keep us guessing. Which is why I think that the possibility of Voldemort setting Snape a "test" of his loyalties is probably dead on. And I agree with Pip that the test of Snape bringing him Dumbledore's head on a platter is one very strong possibility. (I remember posting something very like it on the AOL board (IIRC) a year or so ago.) And, what's more, I can see Dumbledore agreeing to it. Particularly if there is a chance of buying his side some major magical protective advantage by his willing sacrifice. (I can easily see Dumbledore choosing to trump Voldy's ace by playing the Obi-Wan card.) If this is the case, I think it is more likely to be in book five than in book six. But this is only one possibility, and Rowling may very well not choose to go there at all. But I DO think she wants to keep us guessing over Snape's real alliegances. I do NOT think that she is going to sit back and let us comfortably start taking him for granted as one of the good guys. As to Snape's blocking QuirrelMort; That's not really such a big deal. Quirrel was stated more than once as being *young*. Younger than Snape. Snape and his contemporaries were the *new* kids when Voldemort fell. Quirrel was too young to have EVER been one of Voldy's followers, and (I suspect) didn't come from a family which had ever supported him. Unless Voldemort identified himself, there was NO REASON for Snape to neeed to admit to supposing that Quirrell wanted the Stone for anyone but himself. He could probably spin a perfectly plausible tale that he was saving the stone *for* Voldemort -- and polishing his credentials with Dumbledore at the same time. After all, he doesn't have to admit that he knew Dumbledore was intending to destroy the stone after using it for bait, either. And does he need to volunteer that Dumbledore expected *Voldemort* to make a grab for the Stone, or just that he expected *somebody* to? Snape's an experienced spy. He doesn't tell *everything* he knows. -JOdel From sgarfio at yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 22:49:47 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:49:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Selection of DADA Teachers (WAS: TBAY: Dead Man Walking (WAS Assassin!Snape and Karkaroff's Big Mistake)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021122224947.26541.qmail@web21407.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46998 Cindy wrote: > "Let's > not forget that Snape became a DE of his own free will. That makes > him the only member of Dumbledore's team who has likely used Dark > Magic and done evil things, at least for a while. All of this Snape talk has brought up a fairly mundane question in my mind. *Why* can't Snape have the DADA position? In PS/SS, we learn that Snape has been after Quirrell's job for years, which implies that Quirrell has been there a while, so maybe he had tenure over Snape. But now he's had *four* chances at it, and we know he's not getting it now because JKR has said that the new DADA teacher is a woman (unless Snape's really a woman, or wants to be, but EEEEWWWW). Let's look at the qualifications of the DADA teachers so far (using only what Dumbledore knew about them at the time of hire and discounting later revelations about their true past or true identity): Quirrell: Only theoretical experience when he started teaching. Went out to do some field research and came back scared of his own students. Lockhart: Long career traipsing around fighting vampires and banshees and writing books about it. Nice smile. Lupin: Demonstrated ability to control dangerous creatures (not sure in what capacity he has demonstrated this prior to being hired, I'm just assuming Dumbledore knew this). Werewolf. Moody: Distinguished career as an Auror during VoldeWar I. Now very mentally unstable. So the least qualified is probably Quirrell, but the others all sound pretty good. But it seems to me that Snape is uniquely qualified in that he has *used* the Dark Arts, in service to the very Dark wizard that these students are likely to be in endangered by. Could it be that Dumbledore isn't 100% sure that Snape is reformed, and if given the DADA position might start training students in actual Dark Arts? Or is it just that qualified Potions teachers are so hard to come by that he needs Snape to stay where he is (never be indispensable - if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted)? I would think that DADA, given that Voldemort has been showing himself since Quirrell's tenure to be trying to make a comeback, would be much more important for the students to learn well right now than Potions. Better to find another teacher, even a mediocre one, for the Potions position and allow Snape to use his unique knowledge to prepare the students for Voldemort's return. It seemed like that was exactly what Moody was trying to do (when everybody assumed he really was Moody), and it was a given that he was only hired for one year. Any ideas? -Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From pervywraithfancier at yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 22:55:30 2002 From: pervywraithfancier at yahoo.com (Proginoskes) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:55:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: house elf restrictions Message-ID: <20021122225530.95549.qmail@web40907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 46999 To Rebecca, Finwitch, and anyone else discussing house elves and wands... This refers to what you've mentioned about wizards being, when it comes down to it, the very least of all magical creatures. (A quote from fanfic Dumbledore floated through my head at this..."...well, as I said, the magic will be here long after we are not.") When first we all stepped into the wizarding world, their lack of self-consciousness, in Muggle terms, was a blast of spring air to us. The posh get-ups, the caps and the curled boots and the pinstriped robes and lime bowlers--the stark individuality of everybody, _besides_ clothes, the stereotypically Cornish and Cockney and pleasant family-types and cold bristling officials jammed together in Diagon Alley, the very first thing that Harry saw. That claptrap book by Elizabeth Shafer, "Exploring Harry Potter" (sorry for the harsh opinion, but I never read appendixes to books I truly like), mentioned that "unlike Muggles who strive to conform to societal expectations, wizards thrive on being individuals." Then we got into the nasty bigotry and blood ties. Now it seems that Wizards aren't very different from Muggles. Trying to step on other creatures and belittle them to raise themselves up higher. Disillusioning themselves into thinking that they are greater than their magic. Fanfiction or not, I believe what Angie J said about their existing because of the magic, not the magic existing through them. Of course, maybe I'm taking what you've said to heart too much. I feel like a kid who's just found out the truth behind Santa Claus. My faith still lies with people like the Weasleys and anyone who could dream something like Hogwarts up, but the Ministry seems like a lot of duffers to me for the regulations they've made. No offense, but your analogies are all getting mixed up. Medicine, matches, mathematics and art supplies....gah.... I'm a newbie to this list, but has anybody tackled magical dental care yet? 2267 posts and they probably have, but I think it's still worth discussing. -scriptys, who'll try to keep her messages shorter in the future, or email them directly to the people they involve if they get so long-winded. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pervywraithfancier at yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 23:04:18 2002 From: pervywraithfancier at yahoo.com (Proginoskes) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:04:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: on Neville Longbottom Message-ID: <20021122230418.58223.qmail@web40904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47000 Finwitch wrote: "So well, I think that house-elves would harm others or themselves if they were given wands much worse than Neville transfiguring his ears onto cactuses.(Side-note: human-transfiguration while they haven't been tought that yet and Neville thinks he can't do much magic. *Good sidenote*, Finwitch. Have you gotten the impression from the books that Neville's garbled magic is still tapping into some greater source of power than meets the eye? And everybody's discussed why he was put into Gryffindor, whatever corner of the net they're in. I take it HP4GU already has. Blehhh for newbieness. Maybe anyone who's taken a special interest in the Longbottoms has already combed through the history of HP4GU for Neville notes? --Proginoskes --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wynnde1 at aol.com Fri Nov 22 23:50:12 2002 From: wynnde1 at aol.com (wynnde1 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:50:12 EST Subject: TBAY: More Assassin!Snape, Good and Evil Message-ID: <1bc.1543e861.2b101cb4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47001 Wendy sits, innocently drinking her brandy, thinking to herself, "this stuff really grows on you." She's well pleased with her evening so far, she seems to be getting along well with the other patrons, even if they *did* think she was shipping Voldemort and Snape until she managed to get her story straight . . . oops, that is get her real point across. And now the room is filled with lively chatter, mostly about her beloved Severus, so she's feeling all warm and fuzzy, when suddenly there is a commotion in the doorway. A woman in red leaps into the room, in a move reminiscent of a young Errol Flynn. Following behind is a dishevelled, and rather thick-looking boy with messy dark hair and glasses, also draped in red. "No one expects the Sirius Apologist!" the woman shouts. No one in the room looks remotely startled. "We're not talking about Sirius, Dicentra" drawls one of the occupants. "So that's her name," thinks Wendy. "Oh, but you *were*!" Dicentra cries. "I distinctly heard someone dissing Sirius." She looks around. "It was HER!" she says, lunging forward, poking Wendy in the chest with her wand. "SHE's the one who said... "'We've got LOADS more dirt on Sirius Black, for example. We know of a very specific awful thing he did.' "Then she looked around guiltily as if expecting me to charge in right away, but as everyone knows, No One Expects The Sirius Apologist, so I had to wait until her guard was down. Fortunately, Eileen ran interference for me by telling Wendy that the only Sirius apologist was Cindy, who was a bit indisposed at the moment. And *then* she said... Wendy stands up before the woman can finish her sentence, feeling fairly brave (probably the brandy), and pushes the wand away. "Don't point that at me, kid," she drawls in a really bad impression of Clint Eastwood or similar. "I was never looking around *guiltily* - it was just self-preservation. I wanted to be ready in case some mental case came along and tried to expelliarmus me into the next time zone." Wendy bites her lip, realising that she has probably just implied that this woman is mental. Hopefully she won't notice. "Erm, okay," Wendy continues quickly, "what is it you were saying?" "I was just repeating your slanderous allegations," Dicentra fumes. "You said, "'[Sirius is] an adult, and should realise that what he did was heinously wrong. But he still sticks to his, "Snape deserved it" story. Which is a load of crap, any way you look at it. And I'm simply unable to respect Sirius because of it. Which is a shame, really, because he's actually Dead Sexy. Now that he's cleaned up a bit, anyway.'" "Yep," Wendy admits proudly. "I said all that, I did." "See?!? We're getting that old 'Snape isn't as bad as Sirius' argument. And I must say I Beg To Differ!" Dicentra looks around the room wildly. "WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE PRANK!" says the entire room in unison. "Fine then," says Dicentra, pulling up a chair and perching herself on the back. Her companion, a dazed-looking boy with glasses and messy black hair, leans against the wall. "Let's talk about Snape, and how Bad he was. And I'll begin by returning to what SHE said," Dicentra waves her want threateningly at Wendy. Wendy is getting a bit miffed at all this wand pointing. "Oh, for Pete's sake, *put that thing AWAY*!" Then she smiles, hoping to take some of the sting out of her words, still a bit nervous that this woman might actually blast her into another time zone. "They're right . . . we're not talking about the prank in here. I was talking about the prank with SophineClaire, though. So if you're interested in hearing exactly what I think about your obviously" " 'precious' Sirius, you'll find that post floating around somewhere well outside of the boundaries of the Bay. "One of my main points in that post is that, even if Severus turns out to have been murderin', torturin' and rapin' along with the best of them, it still doesn't change the fact that Sirius did something awful for which he shows no remorse and should have been expelled!" She takes a deep breath. "So, there," she mutters under her breath. Dicentra scowls at this upstart newcomer, shaking her head. "They'll let *anyone* in here these days, won't they?" she comments to her thus far silent companion. He doesn't seem to have noticed that she addressed him, so she pokes at him with her wand and his eyes focus briefly, just long enough for him to nod and grunt, "uh-huh." Seemingly satisfied with this, Dicentra continues, "You said, Wendy, that at this point, canonically, we know of *nothing* concrete that Snape has done which would necessitate a redemption, do we? Yes, he was a Death Eater, but we have no details of crimes he committed.' Dicentra gets a rather disturbing - or is it *disturbed* - look in her eyes before continuing, "What's this 'Yes, he was a Death Eater BUT' going on here? There's no BUT when it comes to being a Death Eater. Don't you realize what 'Death Eater' means? It's not some pseudo-scary name that Voldemort gave his Legions of Terror. It's a descriptive name that says what they do. They Eat Death." "Umnh," Wendy begins, "Did you read all that stuff about yew in one of the Harry Potter books, because I don't seem to remember any of it. Not that it's not interesting, or anything, but you see, I've got *real* canons to back up my gripe against Sirius. And you've got something about trees . . .?" Seeing the look which flashes across Dicentra's face, Wendy is not at all happy to realise that the woman and that flunky she's got with her are blocking Wendy's access to the exit, if she should happen to want to flee. She wonders if there's a back way out of here. "What did you just say?" Dicentra asks, then shakes her head and continues in a tone which makes clear she thinks Wendy may very well be a complete idiot. "As you can see, yew trees are themselves death eaters: feasters on the dead. But I doubt Voldemort and his cronies are exhuming graves to gnaw on moldy old bones. No, they've undoubtedly found a new way to eat death--cause it, then profit from it. "Seeing as how Voldemort's ultimate quest is immortality, it stands to reason that his DEs are following him down that same path. Is it not probable that they've learned how to 'eat' the death of someone they've AK'ed, adding that person's remaining lifespan to their own? And is it not reasonable to assume that anyone who made it into Voldemort's Inner Circle pursued that path toward immortality with the same vigor as Voldemort himself? Do you really mean to tell me that Snape became a Death Eater without Eating Death? Surely, you jest!" Dicentra looks around triumphantly. "Wow," Wendy says eventually. "And here I thought you were just some nut off the street. But that's a really awesome theory. The first time I've heard it - is it new, or did I just miss it before? Eating Death. Yeah. That totally fits. I like it *a lot*!" Dicentra looks surprised, but then a voice from somewhere in the back shouts out, " I suggest that Snape kept his hands relatively clean while he was in the ranks of the DEs." "Who said that?" Dicentra demands pointing her wand first at one person, then another. "No one will fess up, will they? But I know all you Snapefans want to think that Snape turned on Voldemort because he couldn't bring himself to develop a taste for killing. That he never descended to the level of Lucius Malfoy or Walden Mcnair. You've all been talking to that George out there, haven't you?" Dicentra has begun to froth at the mouth ever so slightly. Her glittering black eyes dart around the room. "Goblet of Fire," she barks to her companion, who starts out of a light nap. He produces a thick tome from his robes. "Here we are... end of the Pensive chapter... 'Harry looked into Dumbledore's light blue eyes and the thing he really wanted to know spilled out of his mouth before he could stop it.' "'"What made you think he'd really stopped supporting Voldemort, Professor?"' "'Dumbledore held Harry's gaze for a few seconds, and then said, "That, Harry, is a matter between Professor Snape and myself."' "See? There's no reason why Dumbledore couldn't have told Harry right then and there that Snape had developed a distaste for Voldemort's Death-Eating ways. There's nothing so secret about that. He could have explained to Harry that Snape wasn't as bad as the rest. Surely Harry should know something like that. But no, Dumbledore's sitting on a Bang, as sure as I'm standing here. Snape turned back after having been in up to his eyebrows." Everyone in the room was staring either at Dicentra or at the nearest means of escape, except for Wendy, who was staring off into a corner thoughtfully, a strange smile spreading across her face. "That's a fine lookin' canon you've got there, Missy," (Wendy wonders why the *heck* this stupid bad Western movie voice keeps coming out of her mouth). Wendy pulls her wand out, twirling it like an old-fashioned gunfighter. She points it and says, "Bang, Bang. Oops! Sorry George, I didn't mean to be pointing it at *you.*" As George picks himself up from where he'd flung himself to the floor, Dicentra continues, "Which means that Assassin!Snape isn't so far out of character. As Elkins said, Snape's concept of Evil goes so deeply into Pure Evil that anything less than the extreme falls into the "that's not so bad" category. Bullying Harry and Neville, for example, seems inexcusable to us, but he's done so much worse it looks positively righteous to him. So effecting a 'surgical' kill, to prevent more deaths later on, is not going to register on his Evil scale and neither, might I add, on Albus Dumbledore's. "Having moral courage sometimes means doing one awful thing to prevent something worse from happening. The cop who takes out a fleeing, armed suspect isn't at all happy about killing another human being (they routinely go in for therapy after killing someone), but it has to be done to prevent the suspect from killing someone else. Soldiers in a war have to kill too, in horrific ways, but if that's what you have to do to prevent a hostile nation from taking over your country, that's what you do." "Umnh," Wendy breaks in. "That's not necessarily my definition of moral courage. Personally, I think it takes more courage to choose a path of non-violence. Okay, this is potentially a really huge off-topic debate in the making, so maybe I'd better stop now. But I think we're also getting deliciously close to the subject of good and evil, and how difficult they can be to define, based upon just whose side you're on. Actually, the Sirius/Prank vs. Snape/DeathEater contest is a great example of this. People who like Sirius will go to great lengths to explain why what he did isn't evil. Likewise the Snape apologists in their attempt to justify various of his actions. But in reality, we know that Sirius did something awful, and we have lots and lots of compelling reasons to suspect that Snape has done some pretty awful things, as well. Perhaps the point here is that good and evil are all relative. Or, at least not readily found in the rather childish way we are often apt to conceive of them. After all, in a war the invadees think of the opposition as a hostile force. But do the invaders think of themselves as evil? Of course not. They think of themselves as rightful owners of the territory, or crusaders bent on wiping whatever "evil" they perceive in the other side. Not that this is, I think, what we are being shown in the Voldemort situation. But it is very easy to wonder about this sort of dynamic when discussing the Sirius/Snape relationship, or even the rivalry between Draco and Harry. For all we know, Draco feels like the injured party, and is just retaliating in the only way he knows. So what do we really know about good and evil?" Wendy asks earnestly. "I would like to think that JKR wishes to show us something more complex, more realistic than the cartoon character (or pantomime) versions of good and evil we so often see. And I think she's started doing just that, with, for example, Snape. And maybe even Sirius. Hmnh. I know I have more thoughts on this subject, but right now they aren't actually formed in my head yet. Must be all this brandy. But I think it's worth thinking about, anyhow." Suddenly, Pippin Apparates on the scene, startling Dicentra. "Snape is going after Sirius," she declares before Disapparating. Dicentra, nonplussed, mouths silently like a fish for a few moments before finding her voice. "Right..." she says, her voice breaking slightly. "Dumbledore sends Sirius to pull the Old Crowd together, and moments later sends Snape out to kill him. *That's* effective." But a few tears have pooled in her eyes and she runs from the room. "Is that woman okay?" Wendy asks the others. "Ah, don't worry about her," Eileen answers. "Well, to answer your question, probably not, but it's still nothing to worry about." "Okay." Wendy looks thoughtful again. "I did really like that canon of hers. You know the one about Dumbledore. That's pretty compelling evidence that Snape could have actually been a full-fledged, card-carryin', bloody-handed Death Eater." She studies Eileen, and then grins. "You didn't pay her to tell me that, considering you're in the middle of a conversion attempt and all?" Wendy, (Who apologises to the other patrons for not mentioning them by name, but is still new at this and feels like she *knows* Eileen well enough to put words in her mouth, but just isn't that friendly with everyone else yet. And who *really* hopes she hasn't butchered Dicentra's character too badly in this post! And who apologises for having banged at George, even in jest.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Nov 23 00:02:13 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:02:13 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape IS a vampire References: Message-ID: <3DDEC585.9404616B@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47002 jomamaumd wrote: > > Snape IS a vampire - there's no doubt about it!! If you don't > believe it, check out the two most solid pieces of evidence - JKR's > own sketch of him with the upturned collar (very Dracula-esque), and > the AOL chat where she says "Because I know all about Snape, and he > wasn't about to put on a turban" (which would've had garlic > underneath it). There's no contest!! > > - jomama > A vampire that can referee a Quiddich game in broad daylight and see himself in a mirror (the foe glass is a 'type' of mirror after all)? And he teaches classes during the day when all good little vampires sleep in their coffins. Plus I am sure Dumbledore would not go as far as hiring vampires (werewolves only have a problem once a month, vampires are 24/7) nor would he be allowed a wand (vampires being banned from such), plus he bleeds (based on the attack by Fluffy). Jazmyn From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Nov 23 01:31:39 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 01:31:39 -0000 Subject: Bad Night Moonlight (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47003 Bad Night Moonlight (to the tune of Good Day Sunshine by the Beatles) Hear a MIDI at: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/2729/index2.html Dedicated to Amy Z THE SCENE: Gryffindor Commons in the early 70s. The young REMUS LUPIN, confronted by his three best friends, confesses the truth REMUS: Bad night moonlight, bad night moonlight, bad night moonlight The moon each month it waxes gibbously It then changes me quite hideously I'm sprouting fur in a savage way I'm a wolf out prowling for his prey Bad night moonlight, bad night moonlight, bad night moonlight If we should meet while moon is shining bright They'll have to give you guys last rites Bad night moonlight, bad night moonlight, bad night moonlight (REMUS walks away, expecting that his friends will shun him henceforth. But the three lay their hands on him to affirm their camaraderie) SIRIUS, JAMES & PETER If you retreat into the Shrieking Shack We'll stay safe from your wolf attacks Although it's sad that you're a lycanthrope You have friends now who will help you cope ALL Good friends outshine, good friends outshine bad night moonlight . - CMC (born under a waxing gibbous moon) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm Were you born under a full moon? Find out here: http://www.googol.com/moon/ From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 02:31:05 2002 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:31:05 -0000 Subject: Selection of DADA Teachers (WAS: TBAY: Dead Man Walking (WAS Assassin!Snape and Karkaroff's Big Mistake)) In-Reply-To: <20021122224947.26541.qmail@web21407.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47004 Sherry wrote- > I would think that DADA, given that Voldemort has been showing himself since > Quirrell's tenure to be trying to make a comeback, would be much more important > for the students to learn well right now than Potions. Better to find another > teacher, even a mediocre one, for the Potions position and allow Snape to use > his unique knowledge to prepare the students for Voldemort's return. It seemed > like that was exactly what Moody was trying to do (when everybody assumed he > really was Moody), and it was a given that he was only hired for one year. > > Any ideas? > It is possible that D-dore is hoping Snape will mature or at least mellow out enough to stop making the lives of his students living hells. There is a line between tough (McGonagall) and just flat out spiteful (Snape presently).It's hard to consentrate when you're either terrified or consumed with hatred for the person teaching the course, the two main feelings Snape seems to inspire. I wonder if perhaps as a reward for his possible redemption ,sacrifice and hard work Snape will be rewarded with the DADA position in the end,assuming anyone is left alive. Everyone happy in the end, or as happy as Snape gets. Long live LOLLIPOPS! -Olivia Grey From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Sat Nov 23 02:53:59 2002 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:53:59 -0000 Subject: Slytherin, the Chamber and the Basilisk In-Reply-To: <20021031212631.98690.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47005 Iris wrote: > > I don't know if this has been debated yet: why did Slytherin build the Chamber of Secrets, on which purpose? Why did he hide the Basilisk? and went on to raise the possibility that Salazar Slytherin was misunderstood by later followers and opponents. Sorry to take so long to respond, but I have only just become aware of this thread. To my knowledge, this is not a topic that has been debated much. I think it is interesting that the chamber is called the Chamber of Secrets. What secrets? The only secrets we know of were the precise identity of the 'monster within', and the location and mechanism of the entrance. Possibly the chamber was designed as a place for carrying out spells (or spell) of unusual importance, and one of these would have required a basilisk. (In which case Trevor's importance may be for getting another one) What might such a spell be? We know that Slytherin was concerned about the admittance to Hogwarts of muggleborns - but not on grounds of magical inferiority or hostility, just of security in an age of persecution. A *magical* approach to this problem would be to try to bring about some kind of reconciliation between wizards and muggles by means of a spell. Such an approach would of course be highly *ambitious*, and might not appeal to the brave who would prefer to tough a situation out. It is entirely plausible that it would also require a reconciled and united wizarding world to be successful. Hence Slytherin could never finish his 'noble work'. So what we could be looking for is a wizard who unites Slytherin characteristics with those of other houses, particularly Gryffindor, who can speak Parseltongue, who knows where the Chamber of Secrets is, and also has a foot in the muggle camp. David From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 23 03:56:58 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 03:56:58 -0000 Subject: TBAY MAGICAL DISHWASHER's third strain QB (a side venture from Spy!Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47006 >From the comfort of an over stuffed chair, Melody was chopping on her rather large bowl of popcorn and listening to the recorder designated to eavesdrop on the tavern. Need less to say, she had been greatly entertained till this point at the plain silliness and insanity of the night, but she was getting kind of lonely. Seems Grey and Pip had gone off and joined the fun when the MD signal went off leaving their little new member's alone to her own devices. Growing restless, Melody got up and walked around the room, but from the recorder, she heard these words from a voice she had never heard before which lit a fire within her that she *had* to extinguish. --"Dishwasher!Dumbledore is... a liar."-- Grabbing her coat and tossing on her shoes, Melody bolted from the Safe House and to the little tavern by the bay. Looking back, she does not even know how she got there so fast, but all she knew was that her mind was completely bent of finding this voice's owner and explaining a thing or two about Dishwasher's precious Dumbledore. Getting to the tavern door, Melody bustled in and looked around. George, even though he only met the girl once, smirked. He reached to grab a fresh glass, filled it with orange juice, slid it on the counter, and raised his thumb to point to the backroom. "Thanks George," Melody said while making a beeline to the back only pausing to scoop up the glass. Reaching the back, she paused at the door. No one really noticed her there, so she took the time to appraise the situation. It was all still very festive though Cindy was now quite hoarse, and Wendy seemed a bit shaken and worried. She kept mumbling while rocking herself, "I am not bent. I am a good girl. Please, please. I did not mean..." The table of Snape theories where currently playing a ruthless game of Go Fish and seemed to enjoy the flexing their fingers over their cards a little *too* much. Searching a bit more, Melody found who she was looking for. Walking up to a side table, she cocked her head and asked, "Are you Abigail?" The lady looked up with a quizzical look, "Yes. Who are you?" "I am Melody. I am that allusive third member of the MD defense that hasn't quite earned her wings yet." Abigail sniffed in her glass, "And let me guess. Tonight is the night. Please. Sit down little girl and let me explain to you about your love of this precious little theory." Not one to be easily shaken, Melody sat her juice down, slipped off her coat, and made herself comfortable. She did look around a bit before she focused all her attention on Abigail just to see if Pip and Grey were still around. "Hmm," she wondered to herself, "Seems they are in the loo." "Now," Abigail said rather business like, "MD is a theory like any other. A theory that should be built on canon. Which it is, I am not refuting that. Now since it is built of canon, it should therefore be confirmed in later canon. It is only fair." "No," Melody said flatly. A bit shocked by the girl's short answer, Abigail stuttered, "No? Excuse me?" "I say you are wrong," said Melody twirling the straw in her OJ. "A theory does not have to be proven in the next three books to stay a good theory. There are often motives that always stay hidden." "Give me one example," Abigail challenged. "Ok. Have you ever heard of Corrie Ten Boom?" Mel asked. Abigail thought a moment, "Umm...I think so." "When she was a small child, there was a time her and her father were on a train together when she asked him one of those "I'll tell you when you are older" questions. The train had just stopped, and her father was standing up to remove the luggage from the overhead compartments. He looked at her and said, 'Corrie, would I be a good father if I made you get these heavy bags down from the compartments?' She looked at him and said, 'No. I would be hurt.' He then smiled at her and said, 'Then trust me when I say sometimes things are too heavy for children.'" "So are you saying the truth is too hard for the children readers," Abigail asked. "No, I am saying what Dumbledore has already said to Harry when he wanted to know more of what was going on. PS/SS Ch17 'When you are older...when you are ready, you will know.' I take that to also be true with the books. Not all means are shown, and just because they might not be does not mean it did not happen or that they are not important enough to tell. Some things are better left unsaid and just implied. All that we should be content with, and Harry should be content with for that matter as Dumbledore seems to want, is that Voldemort is gone." But Abigail was not yet content herself and said pointing to a bit of parchment, "Now, Grey Wolf claims that MD is just as subject to the ravages of Hurricane Jo as the rest of the ships out on the bay, which means that I have either misread this statement, or he's changed his mind since he wrote it." Melody laughed a bit. "I don't think much has changed his mind lately, but I do think you misread it. All he is saying is that the D & V spy games could still exist even if the future canons doesn't point blank confirm them too. But the future books, can still disprove the MD if canon does say 'hey, Dumbledore just sat around for fourteen years waiting to see if Voldemort returns. He got really good at the ten pin bowling too.' Given my bit of sarcasm there, I bet you know my opinion." "Fine, fine believe whatever, but I have a few more fingers to poke though this theory," said Abigail squaring her back. "Shoot," Melody said blowing bubbles in her OJ. "Ok first, did you hear my fireman analogy?" Abigail asked hoping to keep this short. "Yeah, Mr. One-man fireman has to decide to ignite now while he is prepared and risk lives, or go home every night and wait for it to one day erupt in flames when he is unprepared." "Ok, good. So my problem with all this is the logistics of Dumbledore's choices. He has too many variables that he should tie up better. I think Dishwasher!Dumbledore chose to fight Voldemort too soon and on a very shaky ground," Abigail continued. "Are you second guessing the one wizard that is considered the greatest among all of WW?" Melody said shaking her head. "If he cannot find a way. No one will it seems. After all, we have Fudge choosing to be lazy one-man fireman. He says, 'Hey, *if* the time comes, we will be able to save the inhabitants.' Dumbledore is not that optimistic. He knows better. What he and the old crowd devise to bring down the fire hazard (i.e. Voldemort for those still clueless) *is* the best they can come up with. Whether you think it is still foolish is a Monday morning quarterback opinion." "Wait, wait," Abigail interrupted, "I don't want to get into this now. It is too late for all that. Let me get to my point. First off, Dishwasher!Dumbledore has two problems. One he is a wizard who believes the ends justify the means. He wants Sirius to be hunted like a dog and places Harry is *extremely* dangerous situations. And two, he is a liar. You heard me a liar." Kind of annoyed since she wanted to continue with her previous line of logic, Melody took a quick drink and sighed. "So he is a liar for saying he would never lie?" she asked quietly. "Yes," Abigail insisted, "You have read PS/SS, haven't you?" Melody looked up flabbergasted. "Oh, please. Come on," she said rolling her eyes. "Ok then," Abigail continued quite happy with her little tablemate's rash emotions, "Under MAGIC DISHWASHER, that is, because MD, as I understand, claims that Voldemort's attempt on the Philosopher's Stone was the warning bell in Dumbledore's ear, after which he began to lay the foundation for Voldemort's controlled reemergence at the end of GoF. I've even seen DISHWASHER variants in which the Philosopher's Stone ordeal was orchestrated and controlled by Dumbledore." Melody twitched her mouth a bit. "That variant was mine Abigail. I say the stone was bait. A needed step for the old crowd to find out for sure if Voldemort could or could not be killed in a host body. There are too many coincidences for it to not be a bit orchestrated by General Dumbledore, but that is another post..." Melody said while waving her hand. "I just do not read that passage that way you do it seems." Abigail sat back waiting for the girl's obviously delusional explanation. She looked around to see if another musical number was being choreographed. But Melody noticed none of that and continued to defend that which she loved. "First and foremost, know this. I do not think Dumbledore has *ever* lied to Harry. He has not lied to Ron or Hermione or even to Hagrid. BUT," Melody emphasized to get Abigail's trailing attention, "he is the all knowing father to all four and knows what information should be told to little ears. Or humongous ears in Hagrid's case. Dumbledore really *did* spell out a little of his plan there to Harry. He told his that someone else could help Voldemort come back to life." "But he said that Voldemort could stay a spirit and never return to power. See the *never*." Abigail said jabbing her finger on the table a bit too hard. "Yes, he does say that, but it is conceivably a truth. That *could* hypothetically happen. That does not mean it is the best solution to the problem. Is it best to keep a spirit alive since they could conceivable stay that way forever? That is not a smart move in any war. To leave the enemy in a state where they are not a current threat but could become on in the proper conditions is foolish and out and out dumb. The logic behind the idea 'the spirit might not ever be a threat, so we should just leave them alone for now' is just plain nonexistent. So really, just as Voldemort could conceivable stay hidden forever, it is the same with Dumbledore conceivably telling Harry the truth there." Melody stopped and looked at Abigail who had her arms and legs crossed with a rather unpleasant look on her face. She herself was quite enjoying this though she needed a refill on her orange juice. "Well Dumbledore still has ulterior motives to his teachings and moral guidance," Abigail shot back. "So?" Melody said again a little to bluntly for Abigail's taste. "So, that is deceiving. He should not do that." said Abigail. "How is not showing all sides of your personality and all your interests to children deceiving?" Melody asked. "Should Dumbledore sit them down and explain why they are learning how to make good decisions and why Harry needs to learn how to duel. When has telling the *whole* truth been the only way to tell the truth? If anything, that can be worse that lying in the first place. Dumbledore is not two faced but has many hands in many pots. Not all the pots need to know this though. They just need to know that the moral compass of the hands is set the same for each pot." Abigail put her head in her hands and said, "Are you really going to stand there and tell me that the Dumbledore who presumed to take the fate of his entire community in his hands, who did the math and decided that the lives that are going to be lost to his enemies are worth the ultimate rewards, but who, when faced with the necessity of taking some lives himself, refuses to stain his clean hands even if it means endangering his mission - are you going to tell me that this is the *moral* Dumbledore?" Seeing that Abigail has gotten to her point, Melody sat up, placed her elbows on the table, and began, "Dumbledore is the WW 'good side' General of War. He is the most qualified wizard for the job. Like a general, tough decisions must be made. Decisions that could place people in danger, but really those people are already in danger as your previous analogy says. If Dumbledore did as Fudge has and ignored the problem, then there would be more blood on his hands. He could of done *something*, but chose not to. Really, it is this view that has the most blood on the hands of Dumbledore, and yet all the other theories believe that assertion. MD does not. It is founded on the principle that bad things *will* happen, and if they plan ahead, it will not happen as badly. And within these plans, there are rules to follow. Dumbledore is moral and does respect life. Just because people die in the hands of Voldemort does not mean that it is Dumbledore's fault or that he *willed* it to be. Is it really the ministry's fault that the DE's had a little party at the Quidditch Cup? They did not catch those, so it *has* to be the MoM fault that the Roberts were subject to their whim. I disagree. You cannot blame good for not stopping evil ahead of time. Good can feel a bit guilty for failing, but they did not make the decision to kill or torture. Evil did. Just because Dumbledore knew this evil was still a threat does not mean he is lying or even immoral. Gracious, he even *told* Fudge that evil was a threat at the end of GoF and he balked at him. Dumbledore has warned those he could at the closing day of Hogwarts in GoF. But I digress a bit, the point is that Dishwasher!Dumbledore is working his campaign within a moral compass. He would not condone a course of action that would definitely, without a shadow of a doubt, 100% mean someone would die." Abigail looked up amazed the girl finally finished. She looked back down at her cuticles that she had been fussing over and asked, "What about the Flamels? He knew they would die." "I believe that it was the Flamels' decision to finally bring a close to their long story. The way I see PS/SS, the stone bait was used in the hope it would not come to blows over it needing to be destroyed. They all hoped Voldemort would be killed in Quirrelmort, and the world would be peachy, and Flamel could live as long as he wanted. But unfortunately, that did not happen, so Flamel made the choice to destroy the stone and thus end his life. The chat between them, I'm sure, was not Dumbledore telling Flamel what was up." "Oh, you are sure? Well then that settles everything," Abigail said sarcastically. "Yes my opinion on the matter is tainted by my belief that Dumbledore would not encourage murder. Though it does seem he doesn't mind turning a blind eye from a sort of softer version of suicide," Melody mused, "Hmmm, Pip might be on to something...but I think she was joking, or at least I hope she was...anyway I say Dumbledore preserves life every chance he gets. He would never stamp approve Snape dragging Karkaroff's dead body to the feet of Voldemort. Unless, they could get Karkaroff to do the dirty work for them...but then that is a little too Charles Manson for Harry Potter, don't you think Abigail?" "Huh," Abigail said jumping at hearing her name. "Yeah, um...sorry I wasn't listening." A bit exhausted from finally being out and about again, Melody sat back in her chair. "That's ok, most don't it seems. Even when the truth is staring them in the face. That is why Dumbledore does not tell all his plans and plans all he does." Melody who had planned a nice quiet evening, but this taunted me too greatly From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Sat Nov 23 04:29:30 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 04:29:30 -0000 Subject: TBAY - Snape the Killer In-Reply-To: <9.2c0c9ec.2b0ecd0d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47007 "Please!" Karkaroff pleaded with Cindy. "Help me!" "I don't think I can," said Cindy stiffly. "Excuse me. I must get back up on the counter." "Can someone help me?" cries Karkaroff. "Mr. Karkaroff!" calls Eileen. "Come over here a second. Sit down with Avery and me. I won't let Cindy let Snape kill you. I still think it's profoundly out of character." Karkaroff gratefully takes a chair at the table. "In fact, Igor - may I call you Igor? - I was actually working on a redemption theory for you before this whole mess got started, which made me laugh hysterically when Marina said, "Are there any Karkaroff redemption scenarios floating around the Bay?" "Well, where is it?" demanded Karkaroff in a hoarse voice. "I'm afraid I haven't time for that. I have more pressing concerns at the moment. Snapetheories." "You too," sighs Karkaroff. "But Igor, I'll give you the dirt on Cindy." Eileen's face takes up the look of one of the most keen gossipers on the Bay, the one who knows exactly which list members have shipped themselves with who. "She started an organization devoted to crushing on you and Viktor Krum. I think you should go remind her of that. Declare your undying love and you'll have her at your feet concocting survival theories." A glimmer comes into Karkaroff's eyes. Avery shakes his head, as Karkaroff makes his way towards Cindy. "Well, you've got to give the fellow some hope," says Eileen. "Now, Avery..." Eileen suddenly sees Wendy waving at her across the bar. "Back in a second, Aves," she says and heads off to meet her. "You said there weren't any rabid Sirius 'Prank' apologists about," says Wendy resentfully, watching Dicentra and Stoned!Harry harassing the pub goers. "Well," says Eileen, "No-one expects the Sirius Apologist." "Anyway," says Wendy. "Did you pay her to come in like that? Because she came up with some really good canon to support your "Snape is a killer" theory." "And a rather strange Death Eater theory as well," says Eileen. "Dicey, can you come over here a second?" Dicentra turns from backing George into a corner, and bounds over to Wendy and Eileen. "What is it?" "Well, don't you think they'd notice that Avada Kedavra upped your lifespan?" "What?" "First there was this, "Cruciatus makes you stronger" theory from Cindy, and now it's "AK increases your lifespan." Where do you get the canon for that?" Dicentra looks miffed. "Look. "As you can see, yew trees are themselves death eaters: feasters on the dead. But I doubt Voldemort and his cronies are exhuming graves to gnaw on moldy old bones. No, they've undoubtedly found a new way to eat death--cause it, then profit from it. "Seeing as how Voldemort's ultimate quest is immortality, it stands to reason that his DEs are following him down that same path. Is it not probable that they've learned how to 'eat' the death of someone they've AK'ed, adding that person's remaining lifespan to their own? And is it not reasonable to assume that anyone who made it into Voldemort's Inner Circle pursued that path toward immortality with the same vigor as Voldemort himself? Do you really mean to tell me that Snape became a Death Eater without Eating Death? Surely, you jest!" "Dicentra," says Eileen, "that is a very cool theory you have there. But again, has no-one noticed? If AKing people gave you more time on earth, don't you think it'd be a huge societal problem, not something restricted to a few thugs in hoods and masks? Is Moody going to live a few hundred years since he's offed Rosier, and presumably, others? I'd bet anything that AK does not normally increase your lifespan, of its nature. However... given it's a cool theory, I think you're right that they were getting immortality by killing people. How, I don't know. But Death Eaters suggests it, doesn't it?" "Well," says Dicentra snappishly. "What do you think of my canon to show that Snape must have been in up to his neck in Voldemort's evildoings?" "I will treasure it in my heart. Very convincing. That would have been the perfect moment for Dumbledore to say, "Harry. Severus Snape never was as bad as all those other Death Eaters." "Well, ok," says Dicentra. "We'll let you theorize in peace. What's your opinion on the Prank?" "Sirius Black was an utter bastard who still won't grow up and apologize for his hideous actions towards Snape." "Argghh..." says Dicentra, and clenching her teeth, wanders off in the direction of the drinks. "Well?" Eileen asks Wendy. "You know, I'm starting to like Avery a bit," says Wendy pensively, "and find myself hoping that he'll be able to see past some of my earlier comments which offended him. And that maybe we can be friends." (1) "Well, come along over. Heaven knows Avery can't be picky when it comes to friends. He seems to have misplaced them all. Rosier dead. Wilkes dead. The Lestranges in Azkaban. Snape redeemed. Avery needs all the TBAY support he can get." *This is Oh So Disturbing because a) he's an evil SYCOPHANTic Death Eater. and b) he doesn't really exist(2),* thinks Wendy as she shakes hands with Avery. "I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, Avery," she says aloud. "Can I buy you a drink?" "No, no more drinks for Avery," says Elkins sharply, looking up from the LupiFAQ. "Someone has to look out for his health." Avery glares at Elkins, who has buried her head in a pile of papers again. "Can I have a seat at the table?" asks Judy Serenity. "I'm dying fo a good Snape discussion." "Ah yes," said Eileen, pulling her own FEATHERBOAS more closely around her, "I want blood on Snape's hands. I like Sadist!Snape because it makes him so much more interesting, so compelling." Judy looked into Eileen pale face and glittering eyes. It was only Judy's detached, serene nature than kept her from backing away from Eileen. "If Snape truly enjoyed torturing others, he simply wouldn't be redeemable," Judy continued. "Normal people don't go around inflicting pain 'just for fun.' A person who does that is a severe sociopath. Snape lacks the qualities of a sociopath -- an ability to charm others, a lack of introspection, a desire for action, a lack of remorse for hurting others, poor impulse control, an inability to learn from one's mistakes. Now, Sirius on the other hand...." her voice trailed off. "The Sirius Apologist is watching you," booms Dicentra. "Since when did sadism equal sociopathism?" asks Eileen steadily. "Socipathism is as you said, a lack of introspection, a lack of remorse for hurting each others, poor impulse control, an inability to learn from one's mistakes. One can have a taste for cruelty and not lack all these positive qualities, you know?" "No, I didn't," says Judy. "Well, it's true. Heck, look at Avery here. Remorseful as anything." "For the last time," says Judy. "FourthMan!Avery with Remorse is not a character in the books called Harry Potter written by J.K. Rowling." "Well, the point is that when Elkins first said Snape had a taste for cruelty, she contrasted it with his introspection and remorse. And no-one would deny he's learned from his mistakes and is working on his impulse control. But the world would be a hell of a lot simpler if everyone with remorse and the ability for introspection were to not get any kick out of cruelty. I don't want to bring Solzhenitsyn into this..." "Liar," mutters Elkins. "But just take a look at the entire Soviet system. Dekulakization, for example. Have you read any of the accounts of the cruelty ordinary young men and women engaged in on behalf of the Party towards the "kulaks?" These weren't sociopaths. They were ordinary people, well some of them anyway. It's my humble belief, after studying way too much 20th century history, that everyone has a taste for cruelty. Some of us more than others. I'd put Snape with that "more than others" crowd from what I've seen in him from canon. But the point is that while Snape's instincts might have gone one way, he did reflect on his actions, he did feel remorse, and he went to Dumbledore and resolved to ammend his ways." "Well, if you say so," says Judy, looking disappointed. "I think I'm going to go talk with Monika about this one." Eileen leans back in her chair. Suddenly, Diana sweeps up. "I heard what you were saying," says Diana. "These are the Death Eaters. They kill, they torture, they betray people. Can you name me one who didn't? Do you really..." Diana paused to drape a pink flamingo-feather boa (which clashed horribly with her nails and lips) around her neck, "Do you *really* think that Severus could have got away with being part that crowd and not doing anything of which he might later be ashamed?" Wendy flinches. "Torture or poisons," says Diana. "Choose your... errr... poison." "Both," says Eileen. "You can torture people with poisons. If he brewed them, I think he probably administered them as well." "I don't believe he was evil. I believe he did evil things out of a mistaken belief in a false philosophy. He was taken in by evil, if you like," says Eloise, coming up behind Diana. "I don't buy it," says Eileen. "I understand some of the idea all right, but are you saying that Voldemort isn't evil because he believes in this false philosophy? Now, you could make an argument for any one person not to be evil on the grounds that they are deluded... But I think I'd need to see evidence that Severus Snape was that deluded. You see, I don't have a problem with calling people evil if they do evil things. It doesn't make them a space alien. It just makes them... well... evil. And some people are less evil than others. And an evil person can be good if they stop doing evil things and repent about them." "Simplistic," says Eloise. "Yeah, it is," says Eileen. "I'm like that sometimes." Eileen From kattrap_meow at yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 00:24:39 2002 From: kattrap_meow at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:24:39 -0000 Subject: TBAY: insert_your_beliefs_here!Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47008 Lurking outside the tavern, peering in through the windows, Kattrap sees dancing, drinking, singing and a whole lotta feather boas. Is this a rehearsal for RHPS? After listening to Assassin!Snape and Killer!Snape and EvilorGood!Snape through an open window for far too long, she wanders away from the tavern muttering to herself... "And what about a less direct spying? Maybe not joining the DEs, but going over to Lucius's house for tea and slipping in a drop of truth serum? As LV's slippery friend, Lucius is bound to know all about V's plan.... Real world spies are not usually that close to the mastermind, just an expendable, non-assuming foot soldier, right?..." "...Spies...Dumbledore trusting..." "Spy games don't bang, the best spy's are never found out, very undercover...undercover doesn't bang Harry's world...." "...Draco...vampires..." "And have they thought about counter-spying? Maybe SuperSpy!Snape has been a counter spy back to LV the whole time... now Snape can give away secrets about where dear old Harry is during the summer, or the names of all the old-crowd? No direct death and dismemberment necessary for SuperSpy!Snape..." "..." -Andrea/Kattrap From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Nov 23 00:37:52 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:37:52 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another look at the prank... References: <152.17cf6a1c.2b100b64@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DDECDE0.9EF108B4@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47009 Seems to me that Lupin, not Snape would have more reason to be mad at Sirius. Snape might have been killed, but as death effects the living more then the dead (who can no longer feel, except if they return as ghosts). Lupin would have to live with the fact that he killed a fellow student for the rest of his life, which would have been a horrible thing for Sirius to have inflicted upon Lupin. Surprised that Snape and Lupin didn't become friends over this when they realized they were both victims. Jazmyn From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Nov 23 00:59:12 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:59:12 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Selection of DADA Teachers (WAS: TBAY: Dead Man Walking (WAS Assassin!Snape and Karkaroff's Big Mistake)) References: <20021122224947.26541.qmail@web21407.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3DDED2E0.2B6DE683@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47010 Sherry Garfio wrote: > > Let's look at the qualifications of the DADA teachers so far (using only what > Dumbledore knew about them at the time of hire and discounting later > revelations about their true past or true identity): > > Quirrell: Only theoretical experience when he started teaching. Went out to do > some field research and came back scared of his own students. > Yeah, but he had a dark wizard stuck to the back of his head. We never get a real idea of what he was teaching though, but I bet Volde dinna want him to teach anything about defending against the dark arts.. Moody/Crouch did, but he didn't have Volde stuck to the back of his head, couching him on what to teach and didn't want anyone to suspect he was not Moody by giving wimpy DADA classes. > Lockhart: Long career traipsing around fighting vampires and banshees and > writing books about it. Nice smile. No, he didn't. He got the stories from the wizards and witches who did, then did memory charms on them to make them thin k he did it instead or forget they ever did it at all, then stole their achievements. Lockhart was a fraud and likely never saw a banshee or vampire face to face in his life. > > Lupin: Demonstrated ability to control dangerous creatures (not sure in what > capacity he has demonstrated this prior to being hired, I'm just assuming > Dumbledore knew this). Werewolf. > Being as Lupin is a werewolf, defined AS a dark creature, I'd say he has a bit of hands on experience. He also may have spent a lot of time in the woods or something before he had access to the shak. > Moody: Distinguished career as an Auror during VoldeWar I. Now very mentally > unstable. > People hinted he was unstable before he was locked in his trunk for 10 months. Might bet that after all he went through as an auror, the trunk time might have been a vacation in comparison. > So the least qualified is probably Quirrell, but the others all sound pretty > good. But it seems to me that Snape is uniquely qualified in that he has > *used* the Dark Arts, in service to the very Dark wizard that these students > are likely to be in endangered by. Could it be that Dumbledore isn't 100% sure > that Snape is reformed, and if given the DADA position might start training > students in actual Dark Arts? Or is it just that qualified Potions teachers > are so hard to come by that he needs Snape to stay where he is (never be > indispensable - if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted)? > There is no real evidence that Snape wants the position. Students ASSUME he wants it because of the way he acts or some might know from their parents that Snape was a DE, etc. We NEVER at any time see Snape mentioning he wants the job at all. I think he just is disgusted with the lousy DADA teachers like Lockhart (he knows he is a fraud) and Quirrell (who acted too suspicious around him and Snape saw right through him). He also didn't seem to like Lupin, but got along with him better then the others, I'd say... and Moody (the real one) never believed he had reformed, thus he would not tend to like him. All this dislike, people have translated into jealousy and think Snape doesn't like them because he wants their job. In fact, he shows no real dislike for potion making (none of that silly wand waving). > I would think that DADA, given that Voldemort has been showing himself since > Quirrell's tenure to be trying to make a comeback, would be much more important > for the students to learn well right now than Potions. Better to find another > teacher, even a mediocre one, for the Potions position and allow Snape to use > his unique knowledge to prepare the students for Voldemort's return. It seemed > like that was exactly what Moody was trying to do (when everybody assumed he > really was Moody), and it was a given that he was only hired for one year. > > Any ideas? > > -Sherry > Maybe in fact, he doesn't want the job or Dumbledore would have given it to him if he asked. Or..maybe he prefers teaching potions and is in fact, the greatest potion master in the WW and better off where he is, so he doesn't have to deal with all that silly wand waving and incantations he dislikes so much. Plus, never assume potions is not important or as important as DADA. Its a more subtle art, but a VERY powerful one. Three drops and you would be spilling your innermost secrets....theres no charm for that.. Jazmyn From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Nov 23 01:03:42 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:03:42 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] on Neville Longbottom References: <20021122230418.58223.qmail@web40904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3DDED3EE.122D28F7@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47011 Proginoskes wrote: > > Finwitch wrote: "So well, I think that house-elves would harm others > or themselves if they were given wands much worse than Neville > transfiguring his ears onto cactuses.(Side-note: human-transfiguration > while they haven't been tought that yet and Neville thinks he can't do > much magic. > > *Good sidenote*, Finwitch. Have you gotten the impression from the > books that Neville's garbled magic is still tapping into some greater > source of power than meets the eye? And everybody's discussed why he > was put into Gryffindor, whatever corner of the net they're in. I take > it HP4GU already has. Blehhh for newbieness. Maybe anyone who's taken > a special interest in the Longbottoms has already combed through the > history of HP4GU for Neville notes? > > --Proginoskes > Neville being in Gryffindor never surprised me, Peter/Wormtail being a Gryffindor does. How did a cowardly little rat like him end up a Gryffindor? Unless on course, the Marauders were in different houses and not all in Gryffindor.. and maybe he was a Slytherin who tagged along with them. Lupin strikes me more as a Hufflepuff type for some reason I can't explain. Jazmyn From bobbippon at hotmail.com Sat Nov 23 01:37:42 2002 From: bobbippon at hotmail.com (jomamaumd) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 01:37:42 -0000 Subject: Snape IS a vampire In-Reply-To: <3DDEC585.9404616B@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47012 You all have very valid points about Snape, and I would like to retract my earlier assuredness. Please excuse me - just another overexcited newbie. :-) - jomama From iexxe at yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 02:06:48 2002 From: iexxe at yahoo.com (iexxe) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:06:48 -0000 Subject: Voldemort Owes Harry! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47013 When one wizard saves another wizard's life, a life debt is created between the two wizards. Albus indicated this. Although we don't know what this bond is good for or what it achieves, presumably we will find out in later books. I expect that the wizard saved is in some kind of debt to the wizard who saved. Therefore, since both Ginny Weasley and Wormtail (Peter Petigrew) have been saved (or spared) by Harry, both have a life debt with him. This idea is nothing new and many in this group have remarked upon it before. However I have an idea which I have not seen expressed else-where which I will articulate here because I think it explains the look of triumph in Dumbledores eye when Harry recounts the return of Voldemort. If Peter Petigrew has a wizard's bond (life debt) with Harry and Peter Petigrew donated flesh to Voldemortes return, then Voldemorte must have a life debt with Harry by transitivity. Therefore Voldemort is indebted to Harry, unbeknownst to Voldemorte. If you doubt this, consider that Voldemorte has benefitted from Lily's protection of Harry by transitivity (Harry donated blood to Voldemorte's return), just as Harry has gotten his parselmouth from Voldemorte curse, also by transitivity. I expect that Harry will capitized on this in a latter book, just as I expect Ginny's life debt with Harry may benefit Harry in some unforeseen way. --iexxe From editor at texas.net Sat Nov 23 05:18:47 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 23:18:47 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape IS a vampire References: Message-ID: <013901c292af$ce1044e0$4b05a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 47014 Jomama very courteously said > You all have very valid points about Snape, and I would like to > retract my earlier assuredness. Please excuse me - just another > overexcited newbie. :-) Hey, don't feel bad....More seasoned members of this list than you have fallen prey to this delusion. *sighs* Much as it pains me to encourage any of the Vampire!Snape persuasion, the newly launched Snape FAQ includes a discussion of this theory, including the vapid wisps of canon support people have claimed for it.... The Snape FAQ, tour de force of the FAQ-er's art and darned entertaining reading, can be found in Fantastic Posts and Where to Find Them, at http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ (in fact, all of these are very diverting, as we all sit here waiting for book 5 and (a) twiddle our thumbs; (b) find substitute reading material; (c) drift over to TBAY and anthropomorphize our theories; or (d) *read* TBAY and wish we could write like that well enough to join in) ~Amanda, old forgotten Snapologist, rabidly NOT a Vampire!Snape supporter, pursuer of strategies (b) and (d) [and who fears if she pursued (c) she would manifest as a Binns-variety ghost, who lectured hundreds of posts ago on Snape.......] From penny_rabey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 23 02:17:27 2002 From: penny_rabey at hotmail.com (pennyspace) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:17:27 -0000 Subject: Ludo Bagman: missing DE? ( was Re: Snape, Spy and Assassin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47015 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "theresnothingtoit" wrote: > > Why is everyone convinced that Snape is the DE that has left > Voldemort forever. It is just so, so, obvious, so Agatha Chirstie. > The readers are ment to go - ah-ha, I'm so clever that I managed to > work out who those three Death Eaters were. But there is someone > else who disappears at the end of GoF. Someone else who is slightly > suspect, who *would* be fool enough not to turn up when his tattoo > burned. Ludo Bagman. > > ----------- me: I also believe that there is more to Ludo Bagman, he could quite possibly be one of the missing Death Eaters. However, adding an extra person to the mix makes for some interesting speculation. With four contenders (Snape, Karkaroff, Bagman and Crouch) for those three places, if Bagman *is* one of them, who has been left out? And why? We have Barty Crouch Jr. missing, and presumably he is the "most faithful servant" who has "already re-entered" Voldemort's service. Voldemort goes on to say " He is at Hogwarts, that faithful servant, and it was through his efforts that our young friend arrived tonight..." GoF pg 565 It did cross my mind that Snape might be this "most faithful servant", but I think it unlikely, since it was Crouch!Moody who helped Harry get to the Portkey!cup. So that leaves the one "too cowardly to return" and the one who has left Voldemort forever. Snape, Karkaroff and Bagman. If we assume Bagman is too cowardly to return, then Snape or Karkaroff is lost to Voldemort forever. Perhaps if say that Karkaroff is lost forever, what of Snape? In this scenario perhaps Voldemort does *not* consider Snape to be Death Eater any longer, since his defection to Dumbledore and thus does not mention him. If Snape was the one who is lost forever, and Bagman is too cowardly, I wonder at Voldemort not mentioning Karkaroff here with the missing. Of course this is all speculation arising from the *possible* inclusion of Ludo Bagman here. It's quite possible he isn't one, at least not yet. Or he *is* one, but Voldemort does *not* mention him in front of the others, perhaps keeping a ministry 'ace' up his sleeve. I do find Bagman's character suspicious for several reasons. First, there is the accusation of being a Death Eater. He was found to be passing on information to Voldemort's supporters. He claimed ignorance, and was let off. Add to this Winky's assertion that Bagman is "A very bad wizard!" Gof pg 333. Perhaps Crouch has harboured these views since that trial, and is resentful that he couldn't get Bagman sent to Azkaban. It is also quite possible that he had other reasons to consider Ludo Bagman a "bad wizard" that weren't revealed. I also find Bagman secretly offering to help Harry win the tournament highly suspect. At first glance, it seems to be a kind of red herring, as it turns out that Crouch!Moody is the one helping Harry win, but after thinking over it, it seems a strange red herring, as it can only be seen as that *after* Harry has been taken to the graveyard, and it is explained that Voldemort needed him to win. So to me, while it seems a red herring on the surface, and is easily explained by his gambling problems with the goblins, I have found myself wondering if there was possibly more to it. If in fact the goblins and the money problems were a kind of 'smoke screen' to Bagman's real motive... of helping Lord Voldemort. All speculation of course, and just some thoughts I have been toying with :) PennyR From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Sat Nov 23 05:39:04 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 05:39:04 -0000 Subject: on Neville Longbottom In-Reply-To: <3DDED3EE.122D28F7@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47016 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jazmyn wrote: >Blehhh for newbieness. Maybe anyone who's taken > > a special interest in the Longbottoms has already combed through the > > history of HP4GU for Neville notes? > > > > --Proginoskes Coming up. Some of the list's best and most intriguing discussions have been over Neville. Check out Message 36772 - Still Life with Memory Charm - Subversive!Neville - Elkins - good thread following Message 38398 - Neville: Memory, History, Legacy, Power (LONG!) (Was:: Still Life)- Subversive!Neville - good thread following - Elkins Message 38812 - Memory Charm Symposium - 3 part series by Elkins - huge follow-up, featuring Avery, Pettigrew, Lucius Malfoy, Stephen Spielberg, and George Lucas among others Message 40762 - Speaking Frankly - Frank Longbottom's role in the books, how it effects Neville - Eileen - no thread following :-) > Neville being in Gryffindor never surprised me, Peter/Wormtail being a > Gryffindor does. How did a cowardly little rat like him end up a > Gryffindor? Unless on course, the Marauders were in different houses > and not all in Gryffindor.. and maybe he was a Slytherin who tagged > along with them. Message 45291 - Peter Pettigrew Is Ever So Brave (was House assumptions) Eileen From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 04:31:58 2002 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 04:31:58 -0000 Subject: TBAY MAGICAL DISHWASHER's third strain QB (a side venture from Spy!Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47017 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > > But the future books, can still > disprove the MD if canon does say 'hey, Dumbledore just sat around for > fourteen years waiting to see if Voldemort returns. He got really > good at the ten pin bowling too.' Given my bit of sarcasm there, I > bet you know my opinion." > > Melody > who had planned a nice quiet evening, but this taunted me too greatly I just have a quick question to the creator or any MAGICAL DISHWASHER supporters. I guess I just want to test my understanding of the subject. If future books will tell us that Dumbledore did absolutely nothing to actively help Voldemort's resurrection(of course then Shrieking shack also should be read as PRESSURE COOKER reads it) does it mean that MAGIC DISHWASHER would be disproved? This is the cornerstone of your theory, right? Alla, who respects MD as very creative theory, but would like very much for it to be proven wrong. From ashfae at technicaldetails.org Sat Nov 23 05:37:53 2002 From: ashfae at technicaldetails.org (Ashfae) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:37:53 -0700 (MST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another look at the prank... In-Reply-To: <3DDECDE0.9EF108B4@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47018 > From: jazmyn > > Seems to me that Lupin, not Snape would have more reason to be mad at > Sirius. Snape might have been killed, but as death effects the living > more then the dead (who can no longer feel, except if they return as > ghosts). Lupin would have to live with the fact that he killed a fellow > student for the rest of his life, which would have been a horrible thing > for Sirius to have inflicted upon Lupin. Surprised that Snape and Lupin > didn't become friends over this when they realized they were both > victims. > This is something I've thought on many occassions (and the inspiration for many a fanfic, it seems). On the other hand, Lupin seems to have a more generally forgiving nature than Snape. Someone (I forget who, sorry) wondered why it was that Sirius wasn't expelled for The Prank. My bet is that if Sirius had been expelled, the reason for it would have to have spread; if nothing else, his family would have been informed. And doing so would have exposed Remus' secret, which would have been devastating. I'm sure Sirius was punished, but it must have been done discreetly. The fact that he still doesn't seem sorry is another matter; but then, who knows what living with Dementors for twelve years will do to your head? How warped is Sirius' personality from that, do you think? Where are his priorities? That he has generally good motives and is entirely loyal to Harry and Dumbledore is certain; but he's also in the habit of thinking negative thoughts, and only negative thoughts, and has been in that mindset for twelve years. Will he be more likely to jump to the most negative view of any given situation, do you think? Ashfae From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Nov 23 03:13:32 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 21:13:32 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Selection of DADA Teachers (WAS: TBAY: Dead Man Walking (WAS Assassin!Snape and Karkaroff's Big Mistake)) References: Message-ID: <3DDEF25C.2476ADD3@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47019 purple_801999 wrote: > > > It is possible that D-dore is hoping Snape will mature or at least > mellow out enough to stop making the lives of his students living > hells. There is a line between tough (McGonagall) and just flat out > spiteful (Snape presently).It's hard to consentrate when you're > either terrified or consumed with hatred for the person teaching the > course, the two main feelings Snape seems to inspire. I wonder if > perhaps as a reward for his possible redemption ,sacrifice and hard > work Snape will be rewarded with the DADA position in the > end,assuming anyone is left alive. Everyone happy in the end, or as > happy as Snape gets. > > Long live LOLLIPOPS! > > -Olivia Grey > Snapes bad mood may have a lot more to do with stress. He was a spy and KNOWS that Voldemort will return. he suffers watching Harry Potter get all the glory for Voldemort's 'defeat' over the heads of all those people who died actively fighting against the Death Eaters and resents Harry getting all this 'fame' for doing 'nothing', when braze wizards who fought directly are barely mentioned. Snape was a spy at GREAT PERSONAL RISK and here is some clueless kid who was saved by his MOTHER'S sacrifice and even Lilly doesn't get the real credit for the feat. Its 'the boy who survived', not the 'boy whose mother gave her life to save her son'. Its little wonder Snape is unimpressed by Harry, as he was in the middle of the 'war' and saw the worse of it, no doubt. Snape being a grump may also be just the way he is. I know perfectly good people who are anti-social till you really become their friend. I don't see Harry or any of the other Gryffindors going out of their way to be friendly with Snape or at least understanding of his nature. Think of him as a shell shocked war hero who came back from the war to be called a baby killer cause he started out on the wrong side. I could bet that is how it might have been. Dumbledore extended his REAL trust and Snape likely grabbed it like a drowning man grabbing a life preserver. May have been the first time anyone TRULY and HONESTLY gave him their trust. He seems to treat people like equals if they 'deserve' it, like Dumbledore. He might not really 'hate' Harry, but refuses to cut him any slack as pushing the kid to his limits will certainly make him stronger then coddling him and shielding him, better preparing him against what even Snape knows Harry will likely have to face. Sure, he hated James Potter, but he is one of the people Dumbledore has protecting Harry and if he really hated him as much as Harry thinks he does, Harry would not be alive. Snape is certainly intelligent enough to arrange an accident and never be caught if it were that bad. More then likely, he resents the undeserved 'fame' that in fact, Lilly should have gotten, teases Harry about being famous and all, but maybe he is using a bit of psychology to keep Harry on his toes and teach him that fame isn't everything, that he must learn to stand on his own two feet or he will die just like his father.. I doubt that he would, even given every chance, ever try to kill Harry. He is trying to pay James back for saving his life after all by protecting his son, even if he thinks the son is a worthless spoiled kid who gets free racing brooms, rare magical items and has some of the most powerful wizards protecting him and he ignores it by doing stupid stunts like flying around in cars in broad daylight or associating with excaped prisoners... Its little wonder he gets mad at Harry. I don't blame him a bit. Plus Snape still suspects Harry stole supplies from his stores and NO student would be treated well by him if he thought they were a thief. He might have had some secend thoughts after Barty Croch saying he had Dobby steal the gillyweed, leaving only that Boomslang skin. That and what Harry went through might have been why his gaze was so unreadable at the end of the 4th book as he might have started to realize that this 'famous boy' might be a more worthy person then he thought, though pride might make him not want to admit it. Oh..and not all the students hate him. The Slytherins show no sign of this. Hermione also tends to stand up for Snape a lot.. I think a lot of people are reading Severus Snape wrong. He may be an anti-social grouch, but I feel he is basically a good person who made a few mistakes in his youth that he is forced to live with now. Might sour anyone's disposition. Jazmyn From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Nov 23 03:30:47 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 21:30:47 -0600 Subject: Snape vs Harry References: Message-ID: <3DDEF667.64BC0EF6@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47020 You know, I bet if Harry swallowed his pride and walked up to Snape and said, "Thank you for saving my life in my first year, during the Quiddich match" Snape might be rendered speechless, but I bet he would treat Harry with more respect after that. He prob thinks the kid is an ungrateful little spoiled brat who steals his supplies and ignores rules while good people are trying to protect his sorry, ungrateful little butt. Jazmyn From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Sat Nov 23 05:38:17 2002 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 21:38:17 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin, the Chamber and the Basilisk References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47021 David said at 6.54pm: "We know that Slytherin was concerned about the admittance to Hogwarts of muggleborns - but not on grounds of magical inferiority or hostility, just of security in an age of persecution. A *magical* approach to this problem would be to try to bring about some kind of reconciliation between wizards and muggles by means of a spell." In reply, we can't be sure why Slytherin wanted to build the chamber of secrets, but i find it unlikely that he did it for "hugs, puppies, and goodwill between magic and muggle!" He wasn't "concerned" about having muggle-borns at Hogwarts, he hated the idea--Dumbledore tells us that this was likely the reason he left the school! Furthermore, does or does not keeping a sleeping basilisk in an underground closet as a pet for a thousand years, only to let it out to slither about and murder little kiddies strike you as ethnic cleansing? It's a gigantic snake with a sweet-tooth for children! Now, you suggest that the Chamber may have been a place to carry out spells. I agree on this point, especially that some spells Sally would perform likely require a basilisk or other snake. Remember how in CoS, GoF, etc, we're told that snakes are important in many dark rituals. DARK rituals, not of the kind you do with lovely little bunnies hopping in fields. Furthermore, the modern Slyths do seem to hate muggle-borns based on magical impurity. What else? What persecution? A muggle-born student would be magical---just as magical, if not more, than a Pureblood. This begs the question: why would a muggle-born wizard persecute a pureblood? Because... um... err... no idea, actually. Do any muggle-born students seem to be hating purebloods because they're pure? Hermione hates Draco because he's a malicious jerk (but a darned sexy one). Just who would Sally be protecting people from? Crossbows and torches? Hogwarts has incredible magic to it--a muggle does not see or experience Hogwarts like a magical person. We're told that they would see a run-down building with a warning sign on the door. Maybe it was different "back in the day," but not only was persecution fairly minimal, but wizards possess, well, magic. Try to light me on fire? Harry learns for History of Magic that there are plenty of ways to protect against heat. Against crossbows? No doubt there's a way to stop those in their tracks. In conclusion, the statement that Slytherin was actually noble and trying to do things for the good of muggle/wizard relations is unfounded and extremely unlikely. -DM From hpsmarty at aol.com Sat Nov 23 06:05:12 2002 From: hpsmarty at aol.com (hpsmarty) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 06:05:12 -0000 Subject: HPfGU Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47022 Just a reminder that the November contest is still running. In fact, it's likely to be running until December 8 or so, since I'll be away. The rules are: 1. All responses, as well as questions or comments about the contest should be emailed to me at hpsmarty at aol.com (that's hpsmarty AT aol DOT com). Don't post anything contest-related to the list! 2. There are two contests -- a puzzle and a creative contest. In an effort to increase the level of creativity in the world, everyone who enters the puzzle contest MUST enter the creative contest as well. (You can enter ONLY the creative contest if you want.) And here's the current contest: CREATIVE CONTEST (you can respond to EITHER question): 1. You are on the Board of Governors of Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. The Governors have decided that Hogwarts need a fifth house. What do you think the fifth house should be? Who should it be named after? What characteristics should its students have? How would the Sorting Hat describe it? -- OR -- 2. The Board of Governors has also decided to add some new classes at Hogwarts. Can you name and/or describe a new class that you think should be taught at Hogwarts? PUZZLE CONTEST This month's puzzle is called ADD LETTERS. You have to come up with nine groups of three words each. For each set, three clue are given. The first clue is for the shortest word, which will be 2, 3, or 4 letters long. The new letter can be placed anywhere in the word, as long as you keep the letters in the same order.) If you add a letter to that word, you will get the next word. Then, you add an additional letter to the new word to get the third one. At least one word in each set will have something to do with Harry Potter (more or less). Here's an example: gorilla; back of the neck; potions master Answers: APE; NAPE; SNAPE Got it? The first clue, gorilla, gives you APE. Add an N to get NAPE (back of the neck), then add an S to get SNAPE (potions master). When you're done with all nine sets, take the 18 letters that you've added to get the second and third words in each set, and rearrange them to fill in the blanks in this sentence: George and _______________ are _________. 1. one that is or does (suffix); flower; busy holiday at Hogwarts 2. one when it starts with a vowel; pale; Harry doesn't always need this 3. loud noise; vehicle; New York or Western Australia county 4. bell noise; highly regarded item; as white as Lockhart's teeth 5. risk; top; Firenze, by choice 6. weak; type of war; He's long-lived 7. censor; enigmatic forest denizen; actor Orson 8. What Nearly-Headless Nick never does say; One of the Ravenclaws; footwear 9. very useful critter; very useful utensil; innard As always, DON'T post your answers to the list. Email them to me at hpsmarty at aol.com (That's hpsmarty AT aol DOT com.) And remember the new requirement ? submit an entry to the creative contest along with your puzzle entry. ?Joywitch M. Curmudgeon From ashfae at technicaldetails.org Sat Nov 23 06:04:56 2002 From: ashfae at technicaldetails.org (Ashfae) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 23:04:56 -0700 (MST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ludo Bagman: missing DE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47023 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "theresnothingtoit" > wrote: > > > > Why is everyone convinced that Snape is the DE that has left > > Voldemort forever. It is just so, so, obvious, so Agatha > Chirstie. > > The readers are ment to go - ah-ha, I'm so clever that I managed to > > work out who those three Death Eaters were. But there is someone > > else who disappears at the end of GoF. Someone else who is > slightly > > suspect, who *would* be fool enough not to turn up when his tattoo > > burned. Ludo Bagman. I was under the impression that Bagman never was a Death Eater. He passed on Ministry secrets to a confirmed Death Eater, yes, but I don't think he was officially a Death Eater himself. His jabbering about how he didn't realize he was giving info to the evil side instead of the good side seemed pretty authentic, particularly given what a dunce he is; but no matter how much of a dunce he is, I doubt being given the Dark Mark or coming face-to-face with Voldemort is something he'd be likely to misinterpret. I think he was well-intentioned, but very very thick. Not all those who help Voldemort become Death Eaters, you realize; those are the elite, Voldemort's inner circle, not the sum total of his spy network. Ashfae From hpsmarty at aol.com Sat Nov 23 07:12:03 2002 From: hpsmarty at aol.com (hpsmarty) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 07:12:03 -0000 Subject: HPfGU contest -- solution to logic puzzle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47024 Here's the solution to the logic puzzle from the October contest. (The puzzle itself is at the bottom.) If you have any comments, email them to me at hpsmarty at aol.com. Don't post them to the list! Solution: The first thing you have to do is figure out what all the items are in each category, and make yourself a solving chart. There are five students ? Harry, Hermione, Ron, Neville and Ginny ? and they are each OWNERS of the transfigured homeworks as well as FINDERS of the butterflies (make sure your chart has separate sections for finders and owners). The five subjects are Charms, Astronomy, History of Magic, Divination and Potions; and the five locations are by the fireplace, on the stairway, under a table, on a photo and on a book. The five colors of butterfly are a little harder. Harry says that each butterfly has a different color and markings. Red, green, yellow, and purple butterflies are mentioned, as is one butterfly that changes color. It is also mentioned that the green butterfly is spotted, the yellow butterfly is solid, and there is one striped butterfly which Ginny catches, but we don't know yet which color it is (although it couldn't be green or yellow). There are some clues in the text, before the numbered clues. You're told that of the five students, one is a second year and the rest are third years. Therefore, Ginny must be the second year, so she is not taking Divination. The text also tells you that Hermione was working on Charms, and that Ginny caught her butterfly by the fireplace. Harry's homework was not Divination (clue 4), Ginny was not taking Divination (text), Ron was working on Astronomy and Hermione on Charms, so Neville must have been working on Divination. The text says that Ginny caught a striped butterfly, so she couldn't have caught the green butterfly (since it is spotted), the yellow butterfly (since it is solid), or the purple butterfly (since Neville caught that). Ginny caught Hermione's homework (clue 5), which was Charms, so she couldn't have caught the changing color butterfly since that one was the Astronomy homework. Therefore, Ginny caught the red butterfly, which was striped, and was transfigured into Hermione's Charms homework. Hermione didn't catch Ginny's homework on the stairway (that was Ron's homework), or on the fireplace (Ginny caught that one), or on the book (Ron caught that one), or on the photo (Neville caught that one), so she must have caught it under the table. Therefore, Harry didn't catch his butterfly under the table, on the photo, on the book or on the fireplace, so he must have caught Ron's homework on the stairway. If Harry caught Ron's homework, then Ron must have caught Harry's homework, and Neville caught his own (clue 5). The Charms homework was caught by the fireplace, the Astronomy homework by the stairway, and the Divination homework on the photo. The History of Magic homework was not caught under the table (clue 2), so it must have been caught on the book and the Potions homework was the one caught under the table. Harry's homework was not purple (that was Neville's Divination), or changing colors (that was Ron's Astronomy), or red (that was Hermione's Charms), or yellow (clue 4), so it must have been green. Therefore, Harry was working on History of Magic (clue 2), and Ginny must be the student who was doing her Potions homework, which must be the yellow butterfly. Harry's History of Magic homework was a green spotted butterfly, caught by Ron on the book. Hermione's Charms homework was a red striped butterfly, caught by Ginny by the fireplace. Ron's Astronomy homework was a blinking, changing-color butterfly, caught by Harry on the stairway. Neville's Divination homework was a purple butterfly, caught by Neville on the photo. Ginny's Potions homework was a solid yellow butterfly, caught by Hermione under the table. ORIGINAL PUZZLE: Five Gryffindor students ? four third-year students and one second- year ? are all doing their homework in Gryffindor Common Room when the Weasley twins rush in. Fred yells "There's a troll in Hogwarts Castle, and it's headed towards Gryffindor Tower!" "Quick, everyone get downstairs to the Great Hall," screams George. The five Gryffindor students rush through the painting of the Fat Lady, without noticing that Fred and George have not followed them. They run into to the Great Hall only to find a surprised-looking Professor McGonagall. After they explain what happened, she says, "I would expect Gryffindors to be less gullible and more experienced. Obviously, Fred and George Weasley wanted you all out of the way so they could perform some sort of mischief. I suggest you return to the Gryffindor Common Room immediately before you find that your socks have been charmed to play snare drums all night long." The five embarrassed Gryffindors hurry back up the stairs and through the secret corridors. When they get back to Gryffindor Tower, they find that the Common Room is full of colorful, flying, swooping butterflies ? and that the parchments containing their homework are missing. "Oh no," groans Ron, "Fred and George transfigured all of our homework into butterflies!" "How will I ever finish my Charms assignment?" moans Hermione. "It looks like a simple charm," says Harry, carefully watching the butterflies soar around the room. "They each seem to have different colors and markings, and they land for a few seconds every five minutes or so. We just have to catch them." "That's easy for you to say, Harry, you're a seeker ? you can grab small flying things. I won't be able to catch anything!" Neville says dejectedly. "You can do it, Neville," says Ginny encouragingly, "It's not hard." "You just have to watch them carefully and wait until they land," she adds, and then leaps up and grabs a striped butterfly resting by the fireplace. And each of the students, including even Neville, do manage to catch a butterfly. Eventually, Hermione finds a spell to transfigure the butterflies back into homework parchments, and it turns out that only one student has caught his own homework. Using the clues in the text above and listed below, along with what you know about Hogwarts and its students, can you figure out which student caught which color butterfly, where he or she caught it, and, when transfigured, who each homework belonged to and what subject it was? (Each student was working on a different subject.) 1. The most spectacular butterfly had colors which changed every time it flapped its wings, blinking from red to yellow to green as it swooped around the Common Room, until it was finally caught on the stairway and transfigured back into Ron's Astronomy homework. 2. It was the green spotted butterfly, not the butterfly caught under a table, that was the History of Magic homework. 3. Neville was helped in his efforts to catch a large purple butterfly by the members of the 1845 Gryffindor House Quidditch Team, who yelled advice when the butterfly landed on their photograph. 4. The large, solid yellow butterfly turned out to be neither Harry's homework nor the Divination homework. 5. The two boys who did not catch their own homework parchments caught each other's, as did the two girls. 6. One of the butterflies landed on a copy of *The Monster Book of Monsters,* which helped Ron catch it. 7. One student was working on Potions homework, and one butterfly was red. From oppen at mycns.net Sat Nov 23 08:23:58 2002 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:23:58 -0600 Subject: Snape and the Prank...some thoughts Message-ID: <027701c292c9$acaa02e0$a0510043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 47025 My own take on why Sirius wasn't expelled over the Prank is that it is quite possible that Snape was guilty of a lot more, himself, than "sneaking around...trying to get us expelled." If, say, Snapey had been trying to kill or seriously injure the Marauders, and had talked his way out of it, Dumbledore could have felt that his close call with Lupin-the-werewolf was a bit of cosmic justice. Or if Snape had tried to _frame_ the Marauders, again and again, in hopes of one of his frames being believed and their expulsion following, Dumbledore could have said something to himself like "Okay, Mr. Snape. You've been playing with fire for a long time, and those who play with fire are known to burn their fingers. You were warned to leave them alone, and ignored warnings. Again and again you ignored warnings. Well, now you know why ignoring warnings is not a good idea, don't you? You weren't hurt, thanks to James---whom I'm going to make Head Boy for his actions---and you can lie in the bed you made." Dumbledore _is not infallible_ and IMNSHO made a dreadful mistake...and, honestly, is it _that_ much of an exercise in rocket science to build a cage for Lupin to be a werewolf in, the few nights a year when he's one? Instead of all this silly subterfudge about the "Shrieking Shack," they could just have had a cage somewhere out of the way of students, possibly under Madam Pomfrey's discreet care, and had Lupin report in on the evening of the nights when he was going to change, get into the cage, have it locked from the outside, and no more problem! But to get back to my point, I do think that there is at least the possibility that Snape _had_ done worse things to the Marauders than sneaking around. Personally, I can think of a _bunch_ of "accidents" I could arrange to dispose of an enemy at a place like Hoggies. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 06:26:15 2002 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 06:26:15 -0000 Subject: Selection of DADA Teachers (WAS: TBAY: Dead Man Walking (WAS Assassin!Snape and Karkaroff's Big Mistake)) In-Reply-To: <3DDEF25C.2476ADD3@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47026 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jazmyn wrote: > > > > Snapes bad mood may have a lot more to do with stress. He was a spy and > KNOWS that Voldemort will return. he suffers watching Harry Potter get > all the glory for Voldemort's 'defeat' over the heads of all those > people who died actively fighting against the Death Eaters and resents > Harry getting all this 'fame' for doing 'nothing', when braze wizards > who fought directly are barely mentioned. Snape was a spy at GREAT > PERSONAL RISK and here is some clueless kid who was saved by his > MOTHER'S sacrifice and even Lilly doesn't get the real credit for the > feat. Its 'the boy who survived', not the 'boy whose mother gave her > life to save her son'. Its little wonder Snape is unimpressed by Harry, > as he was in the middle of the 'war' and saw the worse of it, no doubt. Me: I like Snape, really I do. In fact he, Sirius and Harry are probably my absolute favourites in the books. I suppose even if book 5 will not be very good (I doubt it, but who knows :o)), but we'll have enough emotionally charging scenes between these three, I'll be a very happy camper. But I absolutely detest how he treats Harry and his teaching style in general. I do not think he hates Harry (yes, you don't save somebody's life if you hate this person), but it also does not necessarily mean that he likes Harry. I think Snape is absolutely loyal to Dumbledore and he could save Harry simply because he was assigned to protect Harry and being an honorable person he did just that (or he could've been doing the obvious - repaying Harry's father). Snape may also know that Harry is destined to save WW and not wanting Voldemort to rule, he could save Harry for self-serving purposes. Snape may have seen the worst at war, but whether he likes it or not he is a teacher now and he has an obligation to his students not to terrorize them, but to teach them. Harry did not ask for his fame. He does not like it and I am sure Snape knows it. I am sure the child would trade al his fame for his parents to be back among the living with him Jazmyn: > He seems to treat people like equals if they 'deserve' it, like > Dumbledore. Me: I don't want Snape to treat Harry as equal yet. I want him to treat Harry as traumatized orphan, who fought evil several times in his very young age and not traumatize him any more. Jazmyn: > He might not really 'hate' Harry, but refuses to cut him any slack as > pushing the kid to his limits will certainly make him stronger then > coddling him and shielding him, better preparing him against what even > Snape knows Harry will likely have to face. Sure, he hated James Potter, > but he is one of the people Dumbledore has protecting Harry and if he > really hated him as much as Harry thinks he does, Harry would not be > alive. Me: No, I don't think he hates him, but I still don't like how he teaches him. I think Severus should try to stop see James in Harry. In fact, I hope he will by the end of the books. I did say before that Harry will definitely grew up and will see that Snape is not that bad, but Snape also should grow up and try to see who Harry really is. Jazmyn: > I think a lot of people are reading Severus Snape wrong. He may be an > anti-social grouch, but I feel he is basically a good person who made a > few mistakes in his youth that he is forced to live with now. Might > sour anyone's disposition. Me: Yes, I think he is a good person, but who made much more than a few mistakes in his youth. I like him, because he genuily seeks redemption, but in my opinion he really needs to mature emotionally and I am looking forward to the journey. Alla, who apologises for any mistakes in her post, because she really needs to go to bed. From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 08:03:21 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:03:21 -0000 Subject: TimeTurner!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47027 > Judy Serenity writes; > > >>But, I don't really see a reason for Snape to time-travel back to the > Graveyard scene. Being at the Graveyard really buys him (and the"Light" side) > nothing.<< It might. Not that Snape would try to convince Voldemort that he's on /his/ side because Voldemort would never believe him. I'm sure the little rat has told him about Snape owing life-debt to James Potter and all of what happened, hearing it as Ron's rat. Instead, he uses invisibility cloak (There's Harry's, Moody's and Crouch's lying around, the owners not needing them -- what's to prevent Snape using Moody's or Crouch's Cloak? (Harry's just happens to be in Gryffindor tower) He has use another man's cloak before -- Potter's, in PoA! So I think he might well have gone under invisibility cloak... 1) Snape witnessing Harry's actions might help him to get rid of his ancient grudges towards James (and maybe he even helped by using the same jinx on them as Harry...- who knows- not the DE's anyway) 2) Hear if Voldemort changes his plans after Harry excapes 3) Capture Pettigrew, both to replace Crouch Jr. as witness to Voldemort's return and to free Sirius (but at such moment that Voldemort won't notice). This would help further to patch the rivalry between Snape and Black... 4) Snape could use polyjuice to play Pettigrew, getting the hint on Voldemort's plans later. (Possibly also Crouch, but that's doubtful). -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 08:41:31 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:41:31 -0000 Subject: on Neville Longbottom In-Reply-To: <20021122230418.58223.qmail@web40904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47028 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Proginoskes wrote: > Finwitch wrote: "So well, I think that house-elves would harm others or themselves if they were given wands much worse than Neville transfiguring his ears onto cactuses.(Side-note: human- transfiguration while they haven't been tought that yet and Neville thinks he can't do much magic. Proginoskes: > *Good sidenote*, Finwitch. Have you gotten the impression from the books that Neville's garbled magic is still tapping into some greater source of power than meets the eye? And everybody's discussed why he was put into Gryffindor, whatever corner of the net they're in. *Of course* he's in Gryffindor. In all of the characters, Neville Longbottom is, to my view, the ONLY one with absolutely no Slyherin trait in him. That's also why the Slytherin-Head-Of-House considers him as 'nothing', as well as the typical Slytherin, Malfoy. His mind is definately not organised enough for him to be in Ravenclaw, his constant memory lapses etc. Neville says, feeling sorry for himself that he should have been in Hufflepuff, and not brave enough to be in Gryffindor-- obviously giving more value to Gryffindor than Hufflepuff. The hat spent lots of time with him, considering between Hufflepuff and Gryffindor, I think. Neville values Gryffindor more - that might be one thing, but... Brave: Definately. He's facing his worst fear (Snape) regularly, not whining about it at all. Standing up to his friends is the sort of bravery that puts him apart from loyal-to-friends-Hufflepuff. During the third year, Neville admits to being the-password-leak is very much Gryffindor. As well as when he, reluctantly, raises his hand inthe fake-Moody's class. If those acts aren't brave, I don't know what could be, despite of not putting Neville's life in danger. Chivalry- Neville is that, all right. His emphaties with ALL kinds of beings, including spiders. He did not want those poor spiders to suffer; yet, he had to announce his knowledge of this particular curse, considering his parents. He could NOT deny that. He's much too *polite* to stand up to teachers who insist that he hurts beings like beatles, toads or hedgehogs; so caring that he can't help thinking of the poor bird with pity when he sees a feather... When he manages to keep this under control, he doesn't have any focusing energy left to control his magic, too... -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 09:06:47 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:06:47 -0000 Subject: Another look at the prank... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47029 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Ashfae wrote: > This is something I've thought on many occassions (and the > inspiration for many a fanfic, it seems). On the other hand, Lupin seems > to have a more generally forgiving nature than Snape. Me: He does- the kindest man... but Sirius' trick-- well, I'm not so sure what he thought of it, but I think he *was* offended. Trick. Lupin called it a trick, not prank. I'm sure the wording there means *something*. It was no prank, but a trick... what was Sirius up to? > Someone (I forget who, sorry) wondered why it was that Sirius > wasn't expelled for The Prank. My bet is that if Sirius had been expelled, > the reason for it would have to have spread; if nothing else, his family > would have been informed. And doing so would have exposed Remus' secret, > which would have been devastating. I'm sure Sirius was punished, but it > must have been done discreetly. Me: Sirius wasn't expelled because it could not be *proven* he did anything against the rules. He may have leaked the info of Whomping Willow thinking Snape knew - and it wasn't really his fault that Snape went after Lupin at night. Snape could have chosen to follow rules and stay safely in his own bed, but he did not. Why did Lupin still call it a trick, though... I think Sirius, if anything, wanted to encertain that Snape would shut up about Werewolf-Lupin - by the most effective way possible: Make Snape a werewolf. That way Lupin would always have company, and his secret would be safe from Snape. 16-year-old Sirius wouldn't have thought of possible death. at least, that's how Lupin sees it, I guess. Snape thinks Sirius tricked it to get him killed. But we NEVER heard Sirius' version of events. Ashfae: The fact that he still doesn't seem sorry > is another matter; but then, who knows what living with Dementors for > twelve years will do to your head? How warped is Sirius' personality from > that, do you think? Where are his priorities? That he has generally good > motives and is entirely loyal to Harry and Dumbledore is certain; but he's > also in the habit of thinking negative thoughts, and only negative > thoughts, and has been in that mindset for twelve years. Will he be more > likely to jump to the most negative view of any given situation, do you > think? Me: I think Sirius wants to avoid negative thinking at all costs; that he stayed sane by focusing on his innosence, which was NOT a pleasant thought, but found certain *irony* of it, irony he had laughed at then, finding himself helpless and still found amusing enouch to provide a bit of fun - Sirius was able to find humour among Dementors - Sirius negative? No, Sirius tries to find humorous side of things, just to stay *sane*. Laughter is a great way to defeat a boggart, maybe it helps to stand straight at the presence of a Dementor, too? If Sirius' personality was the sort that dwells on negative side, he wouldn't have stayed sane in Azcaban a year, let alone twelve, animagi or not. -- Finwitch. From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 09:51:21 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:51:21 -0000 Subject: Snape IS a vampire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47030 Snape /could/ be using potion to make him bear daylight, have a reflection, able to bleed and keep him safe. The potion would not, however, agree with garlic... At any rate, vampires *are* considered "persons" which is why the centaurs preferred to be considered beasts... *They* obviously do not like vampires at all. If Snape's seen in a friendly chat with a centaur, that *would* dismiss him as vampire. This has not occured yet. Another possibility is that Snape's mother was pregnant with him, being bitten and thus Snape is a half-vampire with much ability to act like a human (just that he can't stand garlic). This would also allow him a wand - Hagrid's half-giant and he has/had one, so why not a half-vampire? Or as Lupin the werewolf had a wand, too. Then again, he /could/ be just human with a disease of fake- vampirism, using a regular potion to help him get by. -- Finwitch From judyshapiro at directvinternet.com Sat Nov 23 12:18:41 2002 From: judyshapiro at directvinternet.com (Judy) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:18:41 -0000 Subject: TBAY - Choleric!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47031 "Can I have a seat at the table?" asked Judy Serenity. "I'm dying for a good Snape discussion." "Ah yes," said Eileen. "A good Snape discussion! I want blood on Snape's hands. I like Sadist!Snape because it makes him so much more interesting, so compelling." Judy looked into Eileen pale face and glittering eyes. It was only Judy's detached, serene nature than kept her from backing away from Eileen. "If Snape truly enjoyed torturing others, he simply wouldn't be redeemable," Judy said. "Normal people don't go around inflicting pain 'just for fun.' A person who does that is a severe sociopath. Snape lacks the qualities of a sociopath -- an ability to charm others, a lack of introspection, a desire for action, a lack of remorse for hurting others, poor impulse control, an inability to learn from one's mistakes. Now, Sirius on the other hand...." her voice trailed off. "The Sirius Apologist is watching you," boomed Dicentra. "Since when did sadism equal sociopathism?" asks Eileen steadily. "Socipathism is as you said, a lack of introspection, a lack of remorse for hurting each others, poor impulse control, an inability to learn from one's mistakes. One can have a taste for cruelty and not lack all these positive qualities, you know?" "No, I didn't mean that sociopathy was the only possible cause of cruelty," said Judy, but she wasn't sure Eileen had heard the last part of her sentence; the singing from the bar was quite loud at the moment. "What I meant was, normal people experience distress when they cause or witness the suffering of others. They may do cruel things under certain circumstances, but cruelty is not something they seek of their own accord, not something they do *for fun*. Normal people are not born with a taste for cruelty. I believe that people who enjoy cruelty for its own sake -- the Macnairs of the world -- are generally sociopaths, complete with the full constellation of sociopathic traits such as lack of introspection and poor impulse control. Snape does not fit into this category...." "I don't buy this idea that normal people have no taste for cruelty," Eileen interjected. "Just take a look at the entire Soviet system. Dekulakization, for example. Have you read any of the accounts of the cruelty ordinary young men and women engaged in on behalf of the Party towards the 'kulaks?'" "Er, no, I'm afraid I haven't," Judy said. "The small amount of time I can steal away from Snape Studies is spent studying Chinese history. I've read about the cruelty inflicted by ordinary peasants during Mao's 'Anti-Landlord campaign.' Will that do?" "Close enough," said Eileen. "The same point holds. These weren't sociopaths. They were ordinary people, well some of them anyway. It's my humble belief, after studying way too much 20th century history, that everyone has a taste for cruelty." "I would disagree," Judy said. "I would say that everyone has a *capacity* for cruelty; that they might behave cruelly under certain social conditions, but that very few of these people really would *want* to act cruelly if left to their own devices. As evidence, look at Stanley Milgram's famous experiences on obedience. He had an authority figure command ordinary people to give what they thought were dangerous, even lethal, shocks to an innocent victim. Most of his research subjects complied and continued giving shocks until the authority figure told them to stop. However, as Milgram noted, the subjects did not enjoy shocking the victim. In fact, the subjects seemed quite conflicted and distressed at giving shocks and were greatly relieved to learn that the 'victim' had not actually been hurt. Furthermore, when other, similar, subjects were asked to shock a victim, but allowed to set the shock level themselves, almost all of them picked low levels of shock. Only one out of 40 subjects voluntarily selected the highest level of shock available." "Hmm, interesting," said Eileen. "But perhaps not relevant. After all, no one would call Snape 'ordinary', so what ordinary people want may not apply to him. In fact, Snape is quite different from ordinary people. Consider Elkins' famous treatise on Snape's personality..." Elkins looked up wearily. "Can't a person get any work done around here? I am so sick of reading that thing." Then she sighed, and started reading. "I tend to see him as someone whose *impulses* all lead him in one unerring direction -- but in a direction that he has chosen to reject on abstract and purely philosophical grounds. In other words, I see him as a Dark Wizard. In instinct. In impulse. In inclination. To some extent, perhaps even in essence.... The suggestion that Snape left the DEs because when it came right down to it, he lacked a taste for torture or murder, for example, has always left me a bit cold because in my reading of Snape, of *course* he has a taste for it. A taste for it is *exactly* what he's got. His taste for it...well, that's sort of his problem, isn't it?" "Thank you, Elkins," said Eileen. "You see, Judy? Snape has a natural taste for cruelty. You have to agree with that, don't you?" "No, in fact I don't agree," said Judy. "As you may know, I've devoted almost my entire professional career to the study of Snape. His past actions. His psychology and personality. His likes and dislikes. His -- well, never mind that part. The point is, I just can't buy the theory of Snape's motives that is being proposed. You -- Eileen, Elkins, and perhaps others -- are saying that Snape is a natural sadist, someone who enjoys hurting others *for sport*. And, I think canon opposes this reading of Snape's character, even if Snape does say a lot of nasty things to the Gryffindors during potions class." "Just *what* canon opposes Sadist!Snape?" asked Diana. "Both the fact that Dumbledore hired Snape -- and what *Sirius* said about Snape." "Sirius?" asked Eileen. "Sirius despises Snape." "Indeed he does," Judy said. "But, you will note that Sirius never says anything about Snape being a sadist. He says that Snape knew a lot of curses, didn't wash his hair, and wanted to get the Marauders in trouble. Sirius *doesn't* say that Snape engaged in wanton cruelty. If Snape had been torturing small animals in Magical Creatures class, or practicing painful curses on the younger students, or kicking around the house-elves, don't you think that Sirius would have mentioned those things, rather than criticizing Snape's hairstyle?" "Still," said Dicentra, "Snape must have been just as bad as the other Death Eaters. Consider the scene after Harry encounters the Pensieve, when Harry asks how Dumbledore could tell that Snape had truly left the Death Eaters. There's no reason why Dumbledore couldn't have told Harry right then and there that Snape had developed a distaste for Voldemort's Death-Eating ways. There's nothing so secret about that. He could have explained to Harry that Snape wasn't as bad as the rest. Surely Harry should know something like that. But no, Dumbledore's sitting on a Bang, as sure as I'm standing here. Snape turned back after having been in up to his eyebrows." Judy said, "Oh, I'm sure there's a Bangy reason why Snape left the Death Eaters, one that Dumbledore can't tell Harry, but it's not proof that Snape is a sadist. Quite the contrary. I believe that Snape left the Death Eaters because of his love for Lily; Snape's feelings for her made him realize how evil the Death Eaters were. The details are so 'eeewww' that I'd rather not go into them again, but you can read my theory in post 34857. Of course, Snape would be mortified if Harry knew he had been in love with Lily. That's why Dumbledore refuses to tell Harry why Snape left the Death Eaters." Eloise, who had been sitting quietly at the table, suddenly looked up. "Snape, much as it pains me to admit it, isn't, apparently, a terribly nice, kind, loving person. I'm afraid that I *can* see him joining in with the other Death Eaters. Like Elkins, I think that unfortunately he *does* have a taste for that sort of thing, although I'm not sure whether he actually enjoys it or whether it isn't more of a reflex. But for some reason, he began to question Voldemort's philosophy. Maybe he twigged that Voldemort was the only one who *really* benefited, that even if he sought power for himself, he would always be controlled by Voldemort." "No, that can't be it, Eloise," Judy replied. "If Snape enjoyed torture, and only left the Death Eaters because he felt that Voldemort wasn't sharing power enough, then Dumbledore would have never taken him in." Eileen tapped her fingernails on the table impatiently. "You keep attacking the Sadist!Snape theory, Judy, but you haven't offered any alternative. If Snape isn't a natural sadist, then why was he a Death Eater in the first place? Why is he so mean to the Gryffindor students? Just what's your explanation for Snape's behavior?" Judy looked as though she had never been asked a more flattering question. "Oooo, I thought you'd never ask! My theory is that Snape has the sort of personality that naturally angers easily. Back when it was believed that personality was dominated by bodily fluids, he would have been said to be full of bile. I rather like using the concept of the four humours when discussing Snape -- he does teach potions, after all. So, I call my theory Choleric!Snape." "Choleric?" asked Diana. "It's just an old name for bile," Judy explained. "In the past, it was believed that happy people had plenty of blood, placid people had lots of phlegm... "Yuck!" George exclaimed from behind the bar. "Don't blame me, I didn't come up with that bit about phlegm," Judy said. She turned back to her fellow Snape theorists at the table. " A sad person was said to have be melancholic -- full of black bile, whatever that is -- while someone like Snape was said to be choleric, full of yellow bile. So, I'm saying that Snape has a naturally resentful, envious personality. He sees the world as hostile to him. He believes he's being treated unfairly, even when he's not. And when he IS treated unfairly -- *cough*prank*cough* -- he's downright implacable. He's mean to the Gryffindors because he's convinced that they are getting privileges they don't deserve. And, I believe that he joined the Death Eaters because he thought that those opposing Voldemort, even Dumbledore himself, wanted him dead." "Yeah, but is he really all that different from the other Death Eaters?" Diana asked. "I'd say that he is," Judy replied. "I admit, he gets angry too easily. He doesn't know how to forgive. But, leave him alone, and he'll leave you alone. He doesn't go after people whom he feels have never hurt him. You can't say that about the other Death Eaters -- they were torturing the campground owner and his family after the Quidditch World Cup, just because they *could*. Snape wouldn't do that. Even back before he joined Dumbledore's side, there's nothing to suggest that he ever *enjoyed* hurting people who had done nothing to him. Snape eventually realized that the Death Eaters did not share his values, that he had made a terrible mistake in joining them." "But, he was hostile to Harry from the moment he met him," interjected Eileen. "Try explaining that! Harry had never done anything to him." Judy replied, "Well, I said that Snape wasn't a natural sadist, but I never said he was *reasonable.* He gets angry when he isn't entitled to. He resents the fame of "the boy who lived" just like -- exactly like -- he resented the attention that James Potter received. He blames Lupin for the prank, even though there's no evidence that Lupin helped plan it. When Neville injures himself, he's furious that Neville has disrupted class. His choleric personality is a serious flaw -- but it's not evil the way that being a sadist is evil." Judy finished talking. She tried to pour herself another cup of tea, but found that her teapot was empty. "Hey, George!" she called towards the bar. "Could you get me some Jazmyn tea? Jazmyn really seems to agree with me." ~~ Judy Serenity, who has found that it's easier to swim around the Bay than she expected, and says, "Come on in, the water's fine!" to Amanda From abigailnus at yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 12:57:25 2002 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:57:25 -0000 Subject: TBAY: MAGICAL DISHWASHER's third strain QB (a side venture from Spy!Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47032 Abigail is at sitting at the bar at the TBAY saloon, nursing the Pina Colada that she - sigh - finally bought off George, waiting for Grey Wolf and Pip!Squeak to address some of her earlier comments. Not that it's ever boring at the TBAY saloon - why, just a few minutes ago the Sirius Apologists arrived unexpectedly and caused quite a ruckus. Abigail is just settling in to watch the show when the saloon doors burst open and in a girl runs in, panting and clutching her side. She gets a tall orange juice from George and makes a bee line for Abigail. She cocks her head and asks, "Are you Abigail?" Abigail looks up with a quizzical look, although that may be the fact that, in another TBAY universe, she's just been called a 'lady', "Yes. Who are you?" "I am Melody. I am that ellusive third member of the MD defense that hasn't quite earned her wings yet." Abigail sniffs in her glass, "And let me guess. Tonight is the night. Please. Sit down little girl and let me explain to you about your love of this precious little theory." "Now," Abigail says rather business like, "MD is a theory like any other. A theory that should be built on canon. Which it is, I am not refuting that. Now since it is built of canon, it should therefore be confirmed in later canon. It is only fair." "No," Melody says flatly, twirling the straw in her OJ. "I say you are wrong, a theory does not have to be proven in the next three books to stay a good theory. There are often motives that always stay hidden. Not all means are shown, and just because they might not be does not mean it did not happen or that they are not important enough to tell. Some things are better left unsaid and just implied. All that we should be content with, and Harry should be content with for that matter as Dumbledore seems to want, is that Voldemort is gone." "I see." Says Abigail flatly. "So what you're saying is that MAGIC DISHWASHER is subject only to a direct contradiction from within canon. I find that very convenient. May I ask what makes MD so special?" She smiles mirthlessly. "Because I could just as easily argue that the depravities that Arthur perpetrated while under the Imperius curse are too much for his young children to hear, and that therefore we should be content that he is a happy, well-adjusted person, and suffice ourselves with the implication that there was a darker undertone to his life - one that is better left unsaid." "Well, yes, I suppose we could." Melody concedes, a bit uncomfortable. "No, we could not!" Exclaims Abigail. "And if you believe that we could than I am afraid we have come to a parting of the ways. You have left me, and other MD objectors, with no means of arguing against the theory. If we claim that Dishwasher is out of character for, say, Dumbledore, you pull out the fireman analogy - which I came up with, by the way - and leave us looking like sentimental fools. If we argue that the theory puts Dumbledore at the center of the books, you cry 'Metathinking!', even though many of us find the idea of treating the books as if they took place in the real world just as problematic. And now you claim to be canon-proof? And make no mistake about it, claiming that you don't need verification in canon is just a hop and a skip away from claiming that all canon contradiction is, in fact, a lie or a misdirection." Abigail pauses and realizes that she may have just gone too far. Certainly Melody seems a bit upset. "I'm sorry, but you don't get to set your own rules. There are those of us who have legitimate concerns about MD, and you won't let us express them. I hope you can understand how that makes me a bit upset. Anyway, what about my problems with the logistics of Dumbledore's actions?" "Are you second guessing the one wizard that is considered the greatest among all of WW?" Melody says shaking her head. "If he cannot find a way. No one will it seems. After all, we have Fudge choosing to be lazy one-man fireman. He says, 'Hey, *if* the time comes, we will be able to save the inhabitants.' Dumbledore is not that optimistic. He knows better. What he and the old crowd devise to bring down the fire hazard (i.e. Voldemort for those still clueless) *is* the best they can come up with. Whether you think it is still foolish is a Monday morning quarterback opinion." "It is not when you have yet to offer convincing proof of the existence of Dumbledore's over-reaching master plan." Abigail insists. "So far, MAGIC DISHWASHER reads like Dumbledore is constantly rolling with the punches. Whether or not he orchestrated the Philosopher's Stone ordeal, by the beginning of CoS he is already planning to ensure that Voldemort's return is acheived only through using Harry's blood - but look at all the elements he leaves to chance! He needs Voldemort to have Pettigrew at his side, but that only happens because Sirius Black escapes from prison. I forget, does MD hold that Dumbledore knew Sirius was innocent before The Shrieking Shack? If he didn't, then how exactly did he plan to provide Voldemort with a faithful servant to help his resurrection? And if he did, then how could he be certain that Sirius would still be sane enough to escape Azkaban, that the Weasley's picture would be in the paper, that Scabbers would be in that picture, that Sirius would see the paper, that it would motivate him to escape, that he wouldn't be recaptured, and finally that The Shrieking Shack would even occur in a way in which Pettigrew would be released with a life debt to Harry? There's simply too much here that can go wrong if you ask me." "Now, I think it's great that Dumbledore has contingency plans, I would be very disturbed if he didn't, but contingencies to what? What was the original plan to bring about Voldemort's return, presumably much later and with less additional deaths? I've yet to see a coherent form of that plan emerge from MAGIC DISHWASHER, and without it MD reads more like rationalizing the past. In which case you're all right, of course - there's no point in predicting the future - you can just make the facts fit the theory after they happen." Abigail sighs. "Now I am getting too strident, and this really isn't what I wanted to discuss anyway - nor is it what brought you here, am I right? You came because of what I said about Dishwasher!Dumbledore." "That's right." Melody says. "You said that Dishwasher!Dumbledore has two problems...." "Whoa, whoa, whoa!" Abigail cries. "There you go, twisting my words right at the start! At no point did I say that the two qualities I described Dumbledore as having were 'problems'. I deliberately used the word 'trait'. You are once again assuming that I've made a moral determination about Dishwasher!Dumbledore when in fact nothing could be futher from the truth." She gives Melody an apprasing look. "You know, I don't think you DISHWASHER people are as morally relativist as you like to think. And, boy, do you ever have a persecution complex!" "Well, we are spies." Melody says. "It pays to be paranoid." "I would check the equipment at the Safe House, if I were you." Says Abigail. "Because you certainly heard me wrong." "How can you claim that to say that Dumbledore puts the ends before the means and that he is a liar is not making a moral determination?" Asks Melody. "I don't say that - you do." Abigail smiles impishly. "MAGIC DISHWASHER is rather firmly based in the character of a pragmatic Dumbledore, who believes that sacrifices are necessary in order for the greater good to prevail - that sounds like putting the ends before the means to me. And you'll note that I didn't say that Dumbledore ever utters an outright lie in order to deceive Harry." "Yes you did!" Melody exclaims. "You said that Dumbledore lied to Harry when he suggested that Voldemort might never come to power. Which, by the way, is conceivably a truth. That *could* hypothetically happen." "But Dumbledore has either already set events in motion or is about to set them in motion so that it won't." Abigail insists. "You see, my problem isn't that Dumbledore doesn't spill his entire master plan (if such a thing even exists) in Harry's lap right then and there. I'm talking about the person that Dumbledore is trying to get Harry to believe in. So you needn't explain to me, yet again, why it's best to resurrect Voldemort now rather then wait in the hopes that he is never resurrected - I know that argument and it makes sense to me, but it's hardly germaine to this discussion. Dumbledore is presenting one face to the multitude and another, far more pragmatic one, in private (I'm sorry I don't remember the exact Nathaniel Hawthorne quote - can someone help me?)." "And you think that that is deceiving and he should not do that." says Melody. "No, I don't think that." Abigail is getting a bit exasperated. "There you go again attaching morality to an issue that has nothing to do with it. It actually makes sense to me that Dumbledore is deceiving Harry. In fact, it helps to eliminate one of the main problems I've always had with MAGIC DISHWASHER - how can the Dumbledore that we're presented with be the calculating spymaster MD expects us to believe in? That answer is that he isn't. The Dumbledore we're presented with doesn't really exist. He's a creation suitable for young impressionable children. Dumbledore is grooming heroes, and heroes don't tend to think in shades of grey. There's not too much moral relativism in the hero mentality - you're either moral or you aren't - and that's the kind of person Dumbledore needs on the front lines. At the rear, though, is where you find the people with a few more colors on their palate - they're the ones making the plans." Abigail stops and frowns. "Have you noticed how I keep providing arguments for a theory I don't even believe in?" "There's always room in the Safe House for you, you know." Melody says sweetly. "Come on, you know you want to!" "No!" Abigail stands up so quickly her bar stool clatters to the floor. "Not until you agree that Dishwasher!Dumbledore no longer has the privilege to refuse Assassin!Snape. Not with the blood of innocent people on his hands." "On his hands!" Melody gets up herself. " Dumbledore is moral and does respect life. Just because people die in the hands of Voldemort does not mean that it is Dumbledore's fault or that he *willed* it to be." "Dumbledore set events in motion that brought about people's deaths." Abigail says quietly. "The fact that he isn't responsible for those deaths doesn't exonerate him from complicity in them. Or at least it shouldn't. And here I *am* going to make a moral determination. A Dumbledore who could look at the deaths of Bertha Jorkins, and Frank Bryce, and Cedric Diggory, and the many deaths that are coming and say 'I had no hand in that' *is* immoral, and I want nothing to do with him." "My point," Melody says, in an equally quite voice, "is that Dishwasher!Dumbledore is working his campaign within a moral compass. He would not condone a course of action that would definitely, without a shadow of a doubt, 100% mean someone would die." "And my point." Abigail replies, "Is that he already has, and that he no longer has the luxury of saying 'this is a line I won't cross'. Dumbledore passed the point of no return long ago - he is now committed to this course of action and *must* - if he is to maintain any credibility - stop at nothing to acheive his goal. If he requires Snape to become a spy, and if Snape needs to offer Voldemort proof of his loyalty in the form of Karkarof's head on a spike, then so be it - otherwise God help them all." "You do get very melodramatic about this point, don't you?" Melody points out. "Did you practice that at home?" "Yeah, a bit." Abigail admits sheepishly. "Was it too much?" Abigail From lizgiz1980 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 16:27:22 2002 From: lizgiz1980 at yahoo.com (Ms Lizard Gizzard) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:27:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape IS a vampire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021123162722.61595.qmail@web41205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47033 --- jomamaumd wrote: > Snape IS a vampire - there's no doubt about it!! If > you don't So how does he attend daytime quidditch matches? __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 23 18:15:16 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:15:16 -0000 Subject: TBAY: MD's third strain QB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47034 Melody drummed her fingers on the table trying to figure out where to go from here. Abigail was *definitely* not backing down, which Melody found quite honorable, but Melody needed a breather. A moment to recollect her thoughts and remind herself why she can here in the first place. Plus she needed more orange juice anyway. "Abigail, excuse me a minute. *Trust me*. I'll be back soon," Melody smiled sweetly but with a little forbearing. "Of course. I'll be here with bells on," Abigail said while lifting her Pina Colada. Wanting to waste no time, Melody hopped up and went over to the bar. She placed her empty glass on the bar and breathed a deep sigh. She did not know if she could do this. This theory is too large, too menacing to keep tabs on really. She was desperately afraid she would botch it all up and then she would *definitely* hear about it later in the Safe House. George walked up and took the empty glass. "More orange juice, kid?" "No, gets a bit much at times, and my stomach is quite uneasy. Can I have just plain water?" Melody asked. George looked even harder at the girl. "Honey, not many in here just drink water. Not too sure it is safe actually. But, nevertheless, here you go." And with that he filled a fresh glass with water and placed it in front of the girl. Seeing how timid the girl looked, George patted her hand and said, "Don't let them get to you." Melody bullied up her best smile and replied, "There are just so many of them, and Pip and Grey are missing. I am not strong enough for this." "Yes, you are. And you'll win first prize at the fair tomorrow. And become a world famous inventor." George said with a twinkle in his eye. "Don't you think you lost *a lot* of listees with that one George." Melody laughed but knew exactly what he was getting at. "It was not meant for them kid," George winked. Feeling better, Melody rose to met her fate. "Very well, I am off to the fair." Melody with water in hand turned to the back room again. She took one step when Alla came up to her and grabbed her hand. "Are you the creator of MD?" Alla asked. "Ha. Please I am not that clever nor ingenious. Pip is all that and a bag of chips," Melody praised. "Oh, but you at least support MD, right?" asked Alla with much sincerity. "Quite right. How many I help you?" Melody said leaning against the bar and taking a refreshing drink of good plain old water. "If future books will tell us that Dumbledore did absolutely nothing to actively help Voldemort's resurrection(of course then Shrieking shack also should be read as PRESSURE COOKER reads it) does it mean that MAGIC DISHWASHER would be disproved? This is the cornerstone of the theory, right?" Alla asked looking straight into Melody's eyes. "Ah, a part of what Abigail wants to know it seems too. MD is a theory and is subject to the same checks and balances as the rest of them. MD is resting solely on the fact that Dumbledore has created a working plan to bring Voldemort back to life so that Voldemort is no longer a threat to the WW. That is the theory in 30 words or less, though I doubt Grey's mega post will be that brief. Within this plan, Dumbledore has worked through out the past four books to bring the event in GoF to life. If, in fact, we find out in future books that Dumbledore has not been scheming and planning and it is proven that he in fact has not helped bring about the rebodiment of Voldemort, then MD is disproven and there would be a big party thrown by Marina at the tavern I assure you. MD's hands are completely tied to the fact that Dumbledore is a general of war and that he has made aggressive strategic plans to end the war. Did that answer your question?" Melody asked a bit hoarse. "Yes, thank you." Alla said turning away to enjoy the fun. Raising herself off the bar, Melody trudged her way back to the room, and once again, stopped at the doorway. Still no sign of Grey and Pip, so she leaned her head against the frame. Drawing her courage and squaring her jaw, Melody strode forward to an awaiting Abigail who had a bit too big of a smile on her face. Settling in Melody asked, "So where were we?" Placing her glass down, Abigail crossed her arms on the table and began, "You were saying that MAGIC DISHWASHER is subject only to a direct contradiction from within canon. I find that very convenient. May I ask what makes MD so special?" "Um, it is not," Melody said wondering how Abigail thought Melody implied it to be. But, Abigail was rolling with her point and said, "Because I could just as easily argue that the depravities that Arthur perpetrated while under the Imperius curse are too much for his young children to hear, and that therefore we should be content that he is a happy, well-adjusted person, and suffice ourselves with the implication that there was a darker undertone to his life - one that is better left unsaid." "Wait, I think I gave a bad example before..." Melody tried to interject. Abigail kept straight on course though. "No, we could not!" exclaimed Abigail, "And if you believe that we could than I am afraid we have come to a parting of the ways. You have left me, and other MD objectors, with no means of arguing against the theory." "I doubt you will ever not be able to argue against *the theory*," Melody said widening her eyes to emphasize the last bit. "After all you have no canon now to disprove it yet you still keep picking. I see no reason why if future books do not flat out confirm or disprove MD you will not be able to argue against us. Besides I think we would miss the challenge." Abigail said, "But you see, If we claim that Dishwasher is out of character for, say, Dumbledore, you pull out the fireman analogy - which I came up with, by the way -" "I never said you didn't. In fact, you said it was yours," Melody pointed out. She pulled out a little recorder that all Safe House members are issued upon moving in and rewinded the tape a ways to get to this part. --"Ok first, did you hear my fireman analogy?" Abigail asked hoping to keep this short.-- "You said 'my'." Melody said putting the recorder away. "Oh." Abigail said a bit surprised to hear her own voice. "I need to get me one of those. Anyway, as I was saying, if we claim that Dishwasher is out of character for, say, Dumbledore, you pull out the fireman analogy and leave us looking like sentimental fools." Melody looked up at the woman shaking her head. "You do not look like sentimental fools. Or at least, *I* don't think y'all do." "If we argue that the theory puts Dumbledore at the center of the books, you cry 'Metathinking!', even though many of us find the idea of treating the books as if they took place in the real world just as problematic. And now you claim to be canon-proof? And make no mistake about it, claiming that you don't need verification in canon is just a hop and a skip away from claiming that all canon contradiction is, in fact, a lie or a misdirection." Abigail pauses and realizes that she may have just gone too far. Certainly Melody seems a bit upset. "I'm sorry, but you don't get to set your own rules. There are those of us who have legitimate concerns about MD, and you won't let us express them I hope you can understand how that makes me a bit upset." "I am upset. Partly because I came too late to know all that has transpired here, but also because you think we are being unfair and conniving little theorists," said Melody looking down at her glass as she swirled the water. "I do believe that all theories are on equal canon proving ground. All theories can be disproven or proven in the next three books. But gracious Abigail, there are *a lot* of theories out there that could stay a theory. Just because it has not been proven does not mean it does not exist. The canon that backs those theories up is in the books already, and the theory is just a different way to read the text. Now whether we think it is a good theory or not is left for us to decide. The theory remains just a theory without the backing of the next three books and does not become proven *fact*. I do not think that just because the text does not point blank address the theory that it did not happen. JKR has herself said that she has written back stories of the characters. I see no problem in wondering and piecing together these stories even when they are not directly in the book. That *is* the fun of it. Now haven said all that, I will say in all likelihood given that MD is a *major* theory surround all that has happened so far, I truly doubt the future canons will not in some way prove or disprove major chunks of it. I think the detractors are a bit worried that their reservations to MD will have to continue on further, and that we three the supporters will only become more crafty in our defense." Melody stopped with her eyes twinkling. She *thrives* on this. Continuing a little further, she said, "But we have not broken any rules from my viewpoint. We are just looking at all possibilities. The theory could conceivably no be proven. Just as it could be proven. We have no problem with this, but it seems you definitely do. Personally, I want the theory to be proven and become a fact instead of staying a theory, but that should be no surprise to you." "Anyway," Abigail said wanting to change the subject to more pertinent issues, "What about my problems with the logistics of Dumbledore's actions?" "Are you second guessing the one wizard that is considered the greatest among all of WW?" Melody says shaking her head. "If he cannot find a way. No one will it seems. After all, we have Fudge choosing to be lazy one-man fireman. He says, 'Hey, *if* the time comes, we will be able to save the inhabitants.' Dumbledore is not that optimistic. He knows better. What he and the old crowd devise to bring down the fire hazard (i.e. Voldemort for those still clueless) *is* the best they can come up with. Whether you think it is still foolish is a Monday morning quarterback opinion." "It is not when you have yet to offer convincing proof of the existence of Dumbledore's over-reaching master plan." Abigail insists. "So far, MAGIC DISHWASHER reads like Dumbledore is constantly rolling with the punches. Whether or not he orchestrated the Philosopher's Stone ordeal, by the beginning of CoS he is already planning to ensure that Voldemort's return is achieved only through using Harry's blood - but look at all the elements he leaves to chance! He needs Voldemort to have Pettigrew at his side, but that only happens because Sirius Black escapes from prison. I forget, does MD hold that Dumbledore knew Sirius was innocent before The Shrieking Shack?" "Really there are two frames on mind there," Melody said while resting her glass on the table. "Either way really, Dumbledore may of had his suspicions about Black's innocence, but he had enough reservations to still believe that Black could be the DE all the WW believed him to be. By MD, Dumbledore did not *know* Black was completely innocent till he talked to him in Flitwick's office after the shack." "Well then since he didn't, then how exactly did he plan to provide Voldemort with a faithful servant to help his resurrection? And if he did, then how could he be certain that Sirius would still be sane enough to escape Azkaban, that the Weasley's picture would be in the paper, that Scabbers would be in that picture, that Sirius would see the paper, that it would motivate him to escape, that he wouldn't be recaptured, and finally that The Shrieking Shack would even occur in a way in which Pettigrew would be released with a life debt to Harry? There's simply too much here that can go wrong if you ask me." "There is a lot that can go wrong. You try and control the variables you can, but really it is all left to chance often times. I cannot deny that. How convenient that the Weasley's won that lottery. How convenient that there was a photographer in Egypt to take *and* pose that picture for the Daily Prophet. How convenient that Fudge does visit Azkaban and knew that Black was not in the same state as the other prisoners. Was even - what did he say - I was shocked at how *normal* Black seemed (PoA Ch 10) - shocked. I would think Fudge the owlposter to Dumbledore would tell him this development, don't you? All those events could of been influenced and help bring about said results. As to the shrieking shack developments, that really is Pip's expertise and I think she has explained it too many times to repeat it here. If you think it has too many variables, well, that is you fair right to your opinion, but I do not find it to be that way. All the best laid plans are subject to a world of possibilities. Even in wartimes, the weather and seasons bring about more battle conclusions than actually training. Then there is the whole issue of health and well-being and the virtue of dry socks... Variable are all around us, and just because Dumbledore's plan is subject to them does not mean he is not working to bring about *this* plan. And if this one does not work, then he can go to plan C and start from there. Voldemort is still in vapour form during and after PoA so really Dumbledore still has the advantage. What MD is saying, is that this plan is the best one on the table for the circumstances of the situation." Abigail leaned back on the legs of her chair kneading her head with her fingertips. "Didn't you come here because of what I said about Dishwasher!Dumbledore?" she asked. "That's right." Melody said. "You said that Dishwasher!Dumbledore has two problems...." "Whoa, whoa, whoa!" Abigail cried. "There you go, twisting my words right at the start! At no point did I say that the two qualities I described Dumbledore as having were 'problems'. I deliberately used the word 'trait'. You are once again assuming that I've made a moral determination about Dishwasher!Dumbledore when in fact nothing could be further from the truth." She gave Melody an appraising look. "You know, I don't think you DISHWASHER people are as morally relativist as you like to think. And, boy, do you ever have a persecution complex!" "Well, we are spies," Melody said also leaning back to rest her crossed ankles on the table. "It pays to be paranoid." "I would check the equipment at the Safe House, if I were you," sassed Abigail. "Because you certainly heard me wrong." "Actually no I did not hear you wrong. You called Dumbledore a liar. That is a moral decision to be made. To say he out and out lied goes against every major religions viewpoint on the issue." "Look," Abigail said clumping her chair down again on all fours and leaning into the table. "The whole reason I named those 'traits' of Dumbledore was to say he would approve Snape killing Karkaroff. Dishwasher!Dumbledore, over all the other varieties of theories on his character, would say yes. He is out to win this war and allowing a guilty DE, who will probably be killed anyway, be killed by an ex-DE, who might or might not have a taste for such things, would be a good plan of war IMO." "How is that not reducing himself to the ground of Crouch Sr. though?" Melody fired back letting her chair clump to the ground. "He is directly condoning the death of a perceived 'redeemed' character without their written consent. It is one thing to let Peter scurry away to his master to make decisions as he will, but a whole other thing to say we need this person killed to get you into the inner circle of Voldie again. At *NO* time does Dishwasher!Dumbledore ever give any resemblance of a man who thinks principles are worthless and the ends fit the means. Gracious, that is what Voldemort says is his creed! 'There is only power, and those to weak to seek it.'" "But people have DIED! And it is on Dumbledore's hands. He cannot wash away that blood since he is a major factor to the reason those death happened anyway. And since he has the blood already on his hands, what is that small jump to actually order the death of Karkaroff in the hands of Snape. Blood on hands is the same whether it comes from direct orders or not!" Abigail said as she stood up, pushed back her bar stool, and glared at Melody. "She is quite passionate about this," Melody observed quietly. Abigail continued, "Dumbledore passed the point of no return long ago - he is now committed to this course of action and *must* - if he is to maintain any credibility - stop at nothing to achieve his goal." "So let me get this straight," Melody began placing her glass in the middle of the table. "Dumbledore, said glass, has concocted this plan to bring about Voldemort's rebodiment. He works with a group of people to brainstorm as the proper way to bring this evil to a conclusion. All his plans have a possibility of bring about more deaths, but he seems to be fine with that since if they do not come up with a plan, Voldemort would kill them anyway. He puts into motion plan A and then plan B, and plan B works. Unfortunately a few people along the way do die," Melody grabs the salt and pepper shaker and turns them over next to the glass. "Now, these shakers are dead period. And Dumbledore is now tied to them and must make their deaths not in vain. Am I correct so far?" "Yes. It is his duty to make sure evil is destroyed so Frank Bryce and Bertha Jorkins have a point in death. They are just not victims of war but really, in a way, heroes." Abigail said with honor. "So you are arguing that Dishwasher!Dumbledore should honor the dead and make decisions that would bring about the conclusion even if it means *directly* causing a death? The ends justify the means, so he would sleep at night?" Melody asked looking up at her tablemate. She hoped she was understanding this correctly this time. "Morality aside, Dumbledore should acknowledge the fact that he is a general and thus he should make those tough decisions like to kill one life to save countless others." A light clicked on in Melody's head. "Gracious, he does sound rather 'God-like' that way, doesn't he?" she pointed out. "But, like God with his son, God did not kill Jesus. The mob and Rome did that. That does not mean God didn't have a master plan for it all." "Oh, dear I am entering the stick realm of religion parallels again," Melody observed and looked around nervously. But she continued nonetheless, "In this case Dumbledore is like God. He places people in situations where they alone make decisions as to their fate. Given the time Dumbledore has taken in shaping Harry's character and learning Harry's views of the world, I think Dumbledore knows how Harry will decide and rest in the knowledge that Harry will go in the ways he was raised. Dishwasher!Dumbledore *never* decides those decisions for anyone. He never forced a fate on anyone either. He observes the world and people around him and uses that knowledge to bring about Voldie's demise." Looking across the table to Abigail, Melody rested her chin on her folded hands on the table. She was exhausted. "I do see your point, Abigail." Melody said trying to sound convinced. "Dumbledore is already playing in a grey area so what is so bad about Karkaroff's death? I guess I see Snape's justified murder as being *completely* evil even if the intentions are good. Kind of like people's reservations about Harry killing Voldemort at point blank range. If he does that, he is a murderer. Plain and simple. BUT this is war, and war has its own morals. Snape murdering Karkaroff is a step further than *I* think Dishwasher!Dumbledore wants to go. Maybe that is my opinion and maybe your appraisal of D!D is possible, but I find it to be against the character at present glance." "So am I wrong in my assertions?" Abigail asked. "No, I don't think so. It is just a view of the events at present surrounding Dumbledore. For you the death of Karkaroff is not a problem for D!D. For my views of D!D it is. For me D!D would not stoop so low. The morals of the story so far allude to this fact, but it is possible that the murder of Karkaroff could be interpreted as a necessary evil. Just like the death of Peter could be interpreted as a necessary evil. But the morals on such situations has been stated by Harry. Death is death. And the person causing the death has that on their shoulders. I do not think JKR will create that much grey on the issue by saying Karkaroff's death is justified, and Peter's wasn't." Abigail looked down at her empty glass. "Hmm, seems I need a refill now. Hold on a minute. I'll be back." And with that, she got up and bounced in the direction of George, leaving Melody wondering if she has done MD justice. Melody From sgarfio at yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 17:05:53 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:05:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Selection of DADA Teachers (WAS: TBAY: Dead Man Walking (WAS Assassin!Snape and Karkaroff's Big Mistake)) In-Reply-To: <3DDED2E0.2B6DE683@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <20021123170553.16847.qmail@web21403.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47035 I wrote: > Let's look at the qualifications of the DADA teachers so far (using only what > Dumbledore knew about them at the time of hire and discounting later > revelations about their true past or true identity): Followed by a list of their qualifications. Then Jazmyn... basically ripped apart everything I said about the former DADA teachers' qualifications. Let me clarify, since you seem to think I haven't read the books at all . I was listing their qualifications *as Dumbledore knew them at the time of hire*, and *discounting* later revelations. In other words, what did their resumes say? I'm quite certain that Lockhart didn't put on his resume that he has spent the past N years taking credit for others' work and then wiping out their memories. And Quirrell already had his job long before he had that Dark Lord thing stuck to his head, so his resume probably didn't mention that either. Crouch!Moody was trying to impersonate Moody, so he's not going to say he's really good at brewing Polyjuice Potions. And yes, Moody was a well-know paranoid *before* he was hired (the *real* Moody, which was the person the school was presumably hiring). Dumbledore knew Lupin personally before hiring him, and in fact was one of the few people who knew he was a werewolf. I assume the school governors also have a say in who gets hired (I'm not British, but they would have in the US), and in fact they may have more of a say than Dumbledore (any Brits care to enlighten me?), so they may have hired Lupin not knowing he was a werewolf. Therefore, I stand by my previous assessment of their qualifications. Jazmyn continued: > There is no real evidence that Snape wants the position. Students ASSUME > he wants it because of the way he acts or some might know from their > parents that Snape was a DE, etc. We NEVER at any time see Snape > mentioning he wants the job at all. Me again: Touche'. I hadn't considered that Snape may not even want the position. I believe you are correct that canon gives us only second-hand evidence that he wants the DADA position (i.e. students saying that he wants it). This brings up a whole different topic, so I'll have to go think about that some more. - Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 19:26:40 2002 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:26:40 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Prank...some thoughts In-Reply-To: <027701c292c9$acaa02e0$a0510043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47036 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > My own take on why Sirius wasn't expelled over the Prank is that it is quite > possible that Snape was guilty of a lot more, himself, than "sneaking > around...trying to get us expelled." > > If, say, Snapey had been trying to kill or seriously injure the Marauders, > said something to himself like "Okay, Mr. Snape. You've been playing with > fire for a long time, and those who play with fire are known to burn their > fingers. You were warned to leave them alone, and ignored warnings. Again > and again you ignored warnings. Well, now you know why ignoring warnings is > not a good idea, don't you? You weren't hurt, thanks to James--- whom I'm > going to make Head Boy for his actions---and you can lie in the bed you > made." > NO! NO! NO! I absolutely can NOT sit on my fingers and "listen" to this! There is NO evidence ANYWHERE that Snape had done ANYTHING other than snoop around and be disagreeable. Both Sirius (particularly immature tattle-tale!Sirius) and Remus have had ample opportunity to tell Harry and co. just what awful things Severus had tried to do--but no, Not one word. Do you honestly think that if Severus had tried to slip something into James' or Peter's pumpkin juice Harry wouldn't have heard ALL about it from his loving Godfather? But WHAT were the Marauders doing? Releasing a "full grown werewolf" and wandering around freely with it FOR FUN! (ha bloody ha) They had a few "close calls" which they later "laughed about"! And WHO is lying in the bed he made? HARUMPH! Melpomene From dicentra at xmission.com Sat Nov 23 19:56:08 2002 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:56:08 -0000 Subject: TBAY - Snape the Killer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47037 Dicentra rushes from the back room, Stoned!Harry trailing in her wake. As she emerges into the main room of the tavern, she sees George, placidly drying glasses with a towel and stacking them on the shelf. "It's all YOUR fault!" she shrieks as she comes to a sudden stop. Stoned!Harry plows into her, nearly knocking her over. "You and your denial of Banginess! You've got all those Snapetheorists thinking their dear Severus couldn't have been a genuine Death Eater." She advances on George threateningly. George backs slowly into a corner. "Dicey, can you come over here a second?" Dicentra looks around. It's Eileen at a table with Wendy. She bounds over to them. "What?' "First there was this, 'Cruciatus makes you stronger' theory from Cindy, and now it's 'AK increases your lifespan.' Where do you get the canon for that?" "Leave Cindy out of this," said Dicentra, peevishly. "Cindy goes off half-cocked more than even I do. She does it just to stir up discussion when things get boring. It's shameful, if you ask me." Eileen and Wendy are still waiting for an answer. "Look, I never said popping off an AK automatically makes you live longer. I said 'Is it not probable that they've learned how to "eat" the death of someone they've AK'ed, adding that person's remaining lifespan to their own?' They're doing something beyond merely AK'ing people. They're doing something else--working a bit of Dark Magic--to add the lifespan to their own. Want canon? The name Death Eaters says it all. And yeah, maybe it's not AK, but if you're going to use a death-causing spell to eat death, attaching it to an Unblockable Unforgivable makes the most sense." "Wow," Wendy says eventually. "And here I thought you were just some nut off the street. But that's a really awesome theory. The first time I've heard it--is it new, or did I just miss it before? Eating Death. Yeah. That totally fits. I like it *a lot*!" Dicentra continues, ignoring Wendy's accolade. "So that means that Assassin!Snape isn't so far out of character. Effecting a 'surgical' kill, to prevent more deaths later on, is not going to register on his Evil scale and neither, might I add, on Albus Dumbledore's. "Having moral courage sometimes means doing one awful thing to prevent something worse from happening." "Umnh," Wendy breaks in. "That's not necessarily my definition of moral courage. Personally, I think it takes more courage to choose a path of non-violence." "Non-violence might not be an option in some cases. Non-violence works only if your enemy has a moral code but is blind to the fact that they're doing something evil. That's why Ghandi's non-violent campaign worked against the British. The British had a moral code, but they were blinded by racial prejudice and greed. By not retaliating, the Indians revealed the brutality of the British to them, and the British, seeing that they were wrong, conceded. Maybe not in such simple terms, but you get what I mean. The British believed in right and wrong, so non-violent tactics were effective. But Ghandi himself said that against the truly immoral and brutal, non-violence wouldn't work at all, because the immoral don't *care* if they're being immoral, and showing them their evil doesn't cause the least bit of remorse." "I'm still not sure about the 'surgical kill' example you gave in the back room, though," said Wendy, thoughtfully. "You said that 'The cop who takes out a fleeing, armed suspect isn't at all happy about killing another human being (they routinely go in for therapy after killing someone), but it has to be done to prevent the suspect from killing someone else. Soldiers in a war have to kill too, in horrific ways, but if that's what you have to do to prevent a hostile nation from taking over your country, that's what you do.' "Perhaps the point here is that good and evil are all relative. Or, at least not readily found in the rather childish way we are often apt to conceive of them. After all, in a war the invadees think of the opposition as a hostile force. But do the invaders think of themselves as evil? Of course not. They think of themselves as rightful owners of the territory, or crusaders bent on wiping whatever 'evil' they perceive in the other side. Not that this is, I think, what we are being shown in the Voldemort situation." "Exactly," said Dicentra. "Moral relativism isn't an issue in the Dumbledore/Voldemort war. JKR has already set that forth in the now-famous statement from PS/SS 'There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it.' Voldemort's side don't perceive themselves as being 'right'--they want what they want and they'll do anything to get it. That's often the case with war: the invaders don't care about right and wrong--they just want something and are willing to kill to get it. "For that reason, Dumbledore isn't always going to have a clean means to victory. He will often have to choose between the lesser of two evils. And if it so happens that executing Karkaroff will bring Snape back into Voldemort's good graces, for the purpose of getting vital intelligence and an operative on the inside, then that will have to be what he does." Wendy pipes up. "But it is very easy to wonder about good and evil being relative when discussing the Sirius/Snape relationship, or even the rivalry between Draco and Harry. For all we know, Draco feels like the injured party, and is just retaliating in the only way he knows." "In this case," says Dicentra, "the 'moral relativism' approach is a good tool for understanding the other guy's point of view. It always helps to know all the sides of a story. But as a way of determining what is good and what is evil, 'moral relativism' really bites: It's a compass without a needle. Ultimately, moral relativism says that no one can ever be wrong--no one is ever mistaken, blinded, misled, deluded or operating under false assumptions. "To cite a contemporary example, a certain large country has recently come under attack by a group of folks who believe that the large country is a threat to them. It is possible to see how this group of folks might genuinely believe that the large country can seem threatening--or even *be* threatening--to the group of folks. As it turns out, though, this group of folks believes that the large country is ruled by a single ethnic group, whose sole aim in life is to wipe out everyone who belongs to the same religion as this group of folks. Now, it turns out that the large country is NOT ruled by the certain ethnic group, and that the large country's aim is NOT to wipe out that religion. So the group of folks are genuinely wrong in this case. (Not to mention the fact that they are violating all kinds of precepts set forth by their religion, but that's another story.)" "So what do we really know about good and evil?" Wendy asks earnestly. "I would like to think that JKR wishes to show us something more complex, more realistic than the cartoon character (or pantomime) versions of good and evil we so often see. And I think she's started doing just that, with, for example, Snape. And maybe even Sirius." "Time will tell," said Dicentra. "But canon has already furnished us with one example of good and evil not being that clear-cut: the case of Bartemius Crouch Sr. I won't go into it, though, because I think I see a vessel in the Bay, drawing nearer, that deals with that very subject." --Dicentra, dropping the gauntlet at the feet of one person only.... From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 23 20:27:43 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:27:43 -0000 Subject: TBAY - Snape the Killer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47038 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "dicentra63" wrote: > Dicentra rushes from the back room, Stoned!Harry trailing in her wake. > As she emerges into the main room of the tavern, she sees George, > placidly drying glasses with a towel and stacking them on the shelf. > > "It's all YOUR fault!" she shrieks as she comes to a sudden stop. > Stoned!Harry plows into her, nearly knocking her over. "You and your > denial of Banginess! You've got all those Snapetheorists thinking > their dear Severus couldn't have been a genuine Death Eater." She > advances on George threateningly. George backs slowly into a corner. > "Now, wait a minute, Dicey!" he says. "You can't blame this mess on me, I just pour the drinks. I'm not responsible for what the patrons might say in a drunken stupor. And *I*, for one, have never claimed that Snape was not a genuine DE. Heck, one of my most fundamental tenets is that Snape joined the DE's of his own free will, knowing full well the evil activities they were getting up to, and believing that he was okay with that. I claim that his moral conversion was gradual rather than instanteously Bangy, but I never lose sight of the fact that you can't have a moral conversion unless there was actually something wrong with your morals to begin with. I'm not at all opposed a Snape who did horrible things in his youth. I'm not even opposed to GleefulSadist!Snape, even though Marina is." "Uhm. Right. Okay." Dicey takes a deep breath and calms down. "I'm glad we cleared that up. I'm going to go talk to Wendy now." "Have fun," George says cheerfully. "Would you like a pina colada on the house before you go?" Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From pennylin at swbell.net Sat Nov 23 22:07:08 2002 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 16:07:08 -0600 Subject: Snape and the Prank...some thoughts References: <027701c292c9$acaa02e0$a0510043@hppav> Message-ID: <04a801c2933c$aac8c380$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 47039 Hi -- Eric said: <<<<<>>>>>> Exactly!!! Melpomene responded indignantly: <<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, now ............ [should preface by saying that Sirius is in the top 5 of my favorite characters ...and Snape is somewhere near the middle to bottom]. I've cut & pasted from a variety of messages I've written in the past on this topic so apologies if it sounds vaguely familiar to some of you -- and it may be a bit repetitive in places but I've not the time to really edit it fully & make it cohesive. We really only have sketchy details about what happened at this point. Being the Sirius fan that I am, I do believe that it's more than a little possible that Snape was doing more than just "sneaking around and spying" on them. I think it very likely that there are a number of facts that we simply haven't been given yet .... so it's hard to make it a black-and-white case as to who was "wrong" and who was "wronged." Things in the Potterverse often look very different when she doles out more facts or details than they did at first blush. I'm not yet ready to concede that Sirius is fully to "blame" for the Prank. "Fault" and "blame" are complex concepts, especially when we only have part of the story & not really from the perspective of any of the players. I don't think we can take Sirius' muttered comments in the course of the Shrieking Shack revelations as entirely trustworthy. The man has just escaped from Azkaban & lived on the run for 8-9 mths, after being imprisoned for 12 yrs. We may dispute whether or not he's suffering from PTSD, but he's clearly not a fully-functioning person at that point, and he really only interjects a few minor points into Lupin's relation of the barebone facts. We've not had Snape or Sirius sit down with the purpose of telling or recalling their side of the story. I really doubt that Snape's snooping around was sufficient to motivate a "prank" of that magnitude. There's also just so much we don't know about the Prank. What did Snape say or do to motivate Sirius to tell him how to follow them? What were Sirius' intentions? Who alerted James? Where was Sirius during James's rescue of Snape? What, other than forbidding Snape to say a word about Lupin being a werewolf, did Dumbledore do about the Prank? What does Sirius really think now? Presumably James rescued Severus in his human form (rather than as a stag) since neither Snape nor Dumbledore had any inkling that James and the others were animagi. Lots of questions & no answers... Saying Snape "deserved" the Prank -- again ... we can't really know for sure what Sirius really truly thinks deep down from this one flippant remark. As for Snape & the Prank, there's clearly no love lost between Snape & Sirius, even yrs later. However, we do *NOT* know what Snape did to motivate the Prank. We can conjecture from now till sundown, but until OOP or Books 6 or 7 clues us in, we're only guessing. All we know is that Sirius tipped Snape off to go down the tunnel to the Shrieking Shack and knew that he'd run into Remus the Werewolf. We know also that James knew about Sirius' prank at some point & saved Snape's life. We don't know *when* James learned of the Prank. We don't know the dynamic of the relationship(s) between Sirius, James, Remus, Peter and Snape. In short, we don't know much of anything. Sirius certainly used poor judgment. But, until we know what that greasy-haired Snape guy did to cause Sirius to play the Prank, I'm reserving judgment. :--) This topic certainly never fails to get people riled up one direction or another -- that's for sure. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 22:27:41 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:27:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and the Prank...some thoughts In-Reply-To: <04a801c2933c$aac8c380$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <20021123222741.85855.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47040 Eric said: <<<<<>>>>>> Penny said: Exactly!!! Melpomene responded indignantly: <<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Penny Linsenmayer wrote: We really only have sketchy details about what happened at this point. Being the Sirius fan that I am, I do believe that it's more than a little possible that Snape was doing more than just "sneaking around and spying" on them. I think it very likely that there are a number of facts that we simply haven't been given yet .... so it's hard to make it a black-and-white case as to who was "wrong" and who was "wronged." Me: I think it is possible that Snape did nothing more than get too close to figuring out Remus' secret, triggering Sirius' protective reaction on his friend's behalf. However, whoever one may ultimately consider to blame after JKR reveals more about this (if she chooses to) there are reasons for Dumbledore NOT to expel Sirius that have nothing to do with blame. It is clear that, above all else, Dumbledore wants to keep Remus' secret just that. If he expelled Sirius for the "Prank," the Black family would need to learn of the reason why. I don't think a lie would suffice to explain expulsion. In the end, Dumbledore convinced Snape not to tell and, because he didn't expel Sirius, he didn't need to explain the reason for that to his family. Dumbledore was able to achieve his goal of secrecy, and that was clearly what he felt was most important. James' actions, frankly, were far more in line with Dumbledore's goal than Sirius' actions were. While Snape wouldn't have been able to tell anyone about Remus if he was dead, there certainly would have been a stink raised by the Snape family and the then-head of Slytherin House, which could have caused Remus' secret to emerge. James' goal may have been less calculating than that, but in the end, his actions led to Remus' secret remaining a secret far better than Sirius' did. When all is said and done, it is perhaps because of this episode that Sirius decided NOT to be the Potters' Secret Keeper. Secret Keeping clearly is NOT one of his outstanding talents. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From judyshapiro at directvinternet.com Sat Nov 23 22:37:31 2002 From: judyshapiro at directvinternet.com (Judy) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:37:31 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Prank...some thoughts In-Reply-To: <04a801c2933c$aac8c380$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47041 Ah, there have been a lot of Snape defenders around here lately, blaming Sirius entirely for the Prank. So, I've been wondering where all the Sirius Apologists are -- I've been expecting them! Penny said: > There's also just so much we don't know about the Prank. > What did Snape say or do to motivate Sirius to > tell him how to follow them? What were > Sirius' intentions? > ....we do *NOT* know what Snape did to > motivate the Prank. We can > conjecture from now till sundown, > but until OOP or Books 6 or 7 clues > us in, we're only guessing. This isn't my reading of the canon. I think we *do* know what Snape was doing -- he was sneaking around, trying to get the Marauders in trouble. He was also being a slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid. And that's it. Sirius has had two opportunities in canon to say what Snape did to deserve the Prank, and that's all he's come up with. Even if Sirius was too traumatized (or preoccupied) to dish out the dirt on Snape in the Shack, he had plenty of time in GoF (the "Padfoot Returns" chapter) to say more. In Padfoot Returns, Sirius is trying to figure out the lowdown on Snape's character, so if Snape had done something awful, Sirius should have said so then. In Sirius' defense, however, we don't know his motivations, just as Penny said. My interpretation is that he *wasn't* trying to kill Snape or get him turned into a werewolf. I think Sirius was just trying to scare Snape, and hadn't thought through the consequences. He hadn't considered how dangerous it would be. So, I'm inclined to give them both the benefit of the doubt. I don't think Snape did anything worse than snoop around, but I don't think Sirius intended for anything horrible to happen to him, either. Sirius intended it to be a *prank*, just as the name implies. -- Judy Serenity From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Sat Nov 23 22:40:45 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:40:45 -0000 Subject: TBAY - CholericSadist!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47042 "No, I didn't mean that sociopathy was the only possible cause of cruelty," said Judy, but she wasn't sure Eileen had heard the last part of her sentence; the singing from the bar was quite loud at the moment. "What I meant was, normal people experience distress when they cause or witness the suffering of others. They may do cruel things under certain circumstances, but cruelty is not something they seek of their own accord, not something they do *for fun*. Normal people are not born with a taste for cruelty. I believe that people who enjoy cruelty for its own sake -- the Macnairs of the world -- are generally sociopaths, complete with the full constellation of sociopathic traits such as lack of introspection and poor impulse control. Snape does not fit into this category...." "No, Snape isn't a psychopath," says Eileen. "I think we can agree on that. But I still don't believe that he didn't take a certain pleasure in cruelty. Because distress is not the only thing normal people experinece when they witness the suffering of others. I think that normal people have a taste for cruelty somewhere in there." "I would say that everyone has a *capacity* for cruelty; that they might behave cruelly under certain social conditions, but that very few of these people really would *want* to act cruelly if left to their own devices." "I'm not sure I disagree with you," says Eileen, a funny look in here eyes. "After all, the fact that the world hasn't entirely gone to pieces would uphold that idea." "Right," says Judy. "As evidence, look at Stanley Milgram's famous experiences on obedience. He had an authority figure command ordinary people to give what they thought were dangerous, even lethal, shocks to an innocent victim. Most of his research subjects complied and continued giving shocks until the authority figure told them to stop." "Ugghh..." says Eileen. "I can't say that surprises me. Have you ever read about Stalin's Dekulakization?" "No. I was too busy reading about Mao's Anti-Landlord Campaign," says Judy. Eileen looks at Judy with respect. "We two should get together some time and compare notes. Anyway, on with Milgram, whose ethics seem a bit screwed up to me. Is that really fair to the test subjects?" "It's been a matter of controversy, of course," says Judy. "As you would find out, if you did a quick search on Milgram on the web. But his methodology is well-respected, and the results, I think, speak for themself. However, as Milgram noted, the subjects did not enjoy shocking the victim. In fact, the subjects seemed quite conflicted and distressed at giving shocks and were greatly relieved to learn that the 'victim' had not actually been hurt. Furthermore, when other, similar, subjects were asked to shock a victim, but allowed to set the shock level themselves, almost all of them picked low levels of shock. Only one out of 40 subjects voluntarily selected the highest level of shock available." "Hope for humanity, I suppose," says Eileen with a twisted smile. "However, I don't think this can stand as a parallel for what we're dealing with here." "Why not?" asks Judy. "An essential ingredient is missing. Dehumanization. "Kulak," "Mudblood." In the Milgram experiment, a person volunteered to take part in a study that would examine the role of punishment in the learning process. When they got there, lots would be drawn, and one person would be made the "teacher," administering the electric shocks, and the other the "learner." Of course, the catch was that the lots weren't really drawn, and the "learner" was an actor. Still, the point is that the experiment actually encouraged empathy with the "learner." The "learner" was presented as another person who had come in volunteering for the experiment, and there was no attempt from the person controlling the experiment to influence the "teacher's" emotions towards the other person in a negative way. Meanwhile, the "learner" acted in a way designed to draw the sympathies of the "teacher." All this was crucial to the goal of the experiment. Very few people took pleasure in what they were doing. However, the sort of cruelty in which non-psychopathic people take pleasure bears no relation to the Milgram experiment." "How so?" asks Judy. "As I said, there's no dehumanization involved. No conception of the victim as the "other." I remember reading any interesting account from a young woman, who Komsomol member, of course, who took part in a rather vicious attack on certain "kulaks" for no reason whatsoever. (It wasn't ordered by anyone, but when they went to tell these people to move out, things got out of hand.) Years later, she was extremely remorseful about this (though sad to say, there were plenty of others who weren't in the slightest, as far as can be seen.)She emphasized the fact that she and the others had numbed any original feelings they might have for the "kulaks" with the idea that they were not human, "vermin" was the word she repeatedly used. And, once she thought of them as "vermin," she could take pleasure in stomping them out. I think I was just discovering Harry Potter at the time I was reading this, btw." "I think canon opposes this reading of Snape's character, even if Snape does say a lot of nasty things to the Gryffindors during potions class, though," says Judy. "Just *what* canon opposes Sadist!Snape?" asked Diana. "Both the fact that Dumbledore hired Snape -- and what *Sirius* said about Snape." "Sirius?" asked Eileen. "Sirius despises Snape." "Indeed he does," Judy said. "But, you will note that Sirius never says anything about Snape being a sadist. He says that Snape knew a lot of curses, didn't wash his hair, and wanted to get the Marauders in trouble. Sirius *doesn't* say that Snape engaged in wanton cruelty. If Snape had been torturing small animals in Magical Creatures class, or practicing painful curses on the younger students, or kicking around the house-elves, don't you think that Sirius would have mentioned those things, rather than criticizing Snape's hairstyle?" "A very interesting questions," says Eileen with a frown. "Now that you mention it Sirius's entire attitude towards Snape seems rather restrained. I've done my fair share of Sirius-bashing on the list," (Dicentra glares at her), "but I've actually never considered the fact that Sirius doesn't badmouth Snape as much as I'd expect him to. Can you imagine Harry years later describing Draco Malfoy or Dudley Dursley in as neutral terms as Sirius employs here?" "So you see," says Judy. "Snape couldn't have been that bad a kid." "However," says Eileen. "First a question. How does Sirius know Snape knew all these curses? I think I assumed that Sirius was confirming there that Snape was, as I think I've always believed, a bit of a bully at school, even if he was also something of a victim. I don't know whether he was at the middle or on the fringes of the Slytherin gang, but I don't believe they weren't bullies, and Snape by being part of them, must have been a bully of some sort. (And he certainly is later in canon!) However, you are right that Sirius really is remarkably restrained towards Snape. Odd that. Do you think Snape was really a passive kid who didn't behave cruelly towards others? Because, sadist or not, I'm not seeing it." Dicentra suddenly wanders up. "Snape must have been just as bad as the other Death Eaters. Dumbledore could have explained to Harry that Snape wasn't as bad as the rest. Surely Harry should know something like that. But no, Dumbledore's sitting on a Bang, as sure as I'm standing here. Snape turned back after having been in up to his eyebrows." Judy said, "Oh, I'm sure there's a Bangy reason why Snape left the Death Eaters, one that Dumbledore can't tell Harry, but it's not proof that Snape is a sadist." "But Judy," says Eileen in amusement. "I don't want a Bangy reason for Snape to leave the Death Eaters. I'm a Georgian, remember? A Georgian fascinated with Bangs, to be sure, but I want my Bangs kept clear of Snape's decision to leave the Death Eaters." "Fine then," says Judy. "The details are so 'eeewww' that I'd rather not go into them again actually, but you can read my theory in post 34857. Of course, Snape would be mortified if Harry knew he had been in love with Lily. That's why Dumbledore refuses to tell Harry why Snape left the Death Eaters." "Oh yes," says Eileen with your smile. "Your theory. I adored that theory. Eventually, I shamelessly stole it for Peter Pettigrew." Judy sniffed. Eloise, who had been sitting quietly at the table, suddenly looked up. "Snape, much as it pains me to admit it," ("Much as it pains you to admit it?" asks the Sirius Apologist in disbelief) "isn't, apparently, a terribly nice, kind, loving person. I'm afraid that I *can* see him joining in with the other Death Eaters. Like Elkins, I think that unfortunately he *does* have a taste for that sort of thing, although I'm not sure whether he actually enjoys it or whether it isn't more of a reflex. But for some reason, he began to question Voldemort's philosophy. Maybe he twigged that Voldemort was the only one who *really* benefited, that even if he sought power for himself, he would always be controlled by Voldemort." "No, that can't be it, Eloise," Judy replied. "If Snape enjoyed torture, and only left the Death Eaters because he felt that Voldemort wasn't sharing power enough, then Dumbledore would have never taken him in." "Well, I agree with you there, Judy," says Eileen. "But you only adressed the last sentence of Dicentra's little speech. I think Snape did "question Voldemort's philosophy," and came to the conclusion that it was wrong. Is there anyone on the Bay, btw, who disagrees with this? Does Cindy still promote that Prince of Lies rubb... errr. theory?" Everyone shrugs their shoulders. "Anyway, I like Eloise's line there. "I'm not sure whether he actually enjoys it or whether it isn't more of a reflex." Because I'm fine with a reflexive taste for sadism. I don't really see Snape sitting down every morning, and going, "Must get my daily fix of Muggle torture." McNair, as you pointed out, I do wonder about, but Snape I see more as that Komsomol woman I was talking about. "It got out of control," that's a sentence I don't want to hear in my life ever again, btw." Eileen tapped her fingernails on the table impatiently. "You keep attacking the Sadist!Snape theory, Judy, but you haven't offered any alternative. If Snape isn't a natural sadist, then why was he a Death Eater in the first place? Why is he so mean to the Gryffindor students? Just what's your explanation for Snape's behavior?" Judy looked as though she had never been asked a more flattering question. "Oooo, I thought you'd never ask! My theory is that Snape has the sort of personality that naturally angers easily." "I think that would withstand a vigorous canon offense," says Eileen with a smile. "Go on." "Back when it was believed that personality was dominated by bodily fluids, he would have been said to be full of bile. I rather like using the concept of the four humours when discussing Snape -- he does teach potions, after all. So, I call my theory Choleric!Snape." "Oh very nice," says Eileen. "I may indulge in 20th century totalitarianism, but I'm really a medievalist by inclination." "So, I'm saying that Snape has a naturally resentful, envious personality. He sees the world as hostile to him. He believes he's being treated unfairly, even when he's not. And when he IS treated unfairly -- *cough*prank*cough* -- he's downright implacable. He's mean to the Gryffindors because he's convinced that they are getting privileges they don't deserve. And, I believe that he joined the Death Eaters because he thought that those opposing Voldemort, even Dumbledore himself, wanted him dead." "I'll buy into Snape being choleric," says Eileen, "and a complete paranoid. But did he really think Dumbledore wanted him dead at the age of 16? That seems a little bit of a stretch to me I'mSoParanoidIShouldBeInSt.Mungo's!Snape. Otherwise, nice analysis of Snape's character." "Yeah, but is he really all that different from the other Death Eaters?" Diana asked. Eileen nods her head. "I'd say that he is," Judy replied. "I admit, he gets angry too easily. He doesn't know how to forgive. But, leave him alone, and he'll leave you alone. He doesn't go after people whom he feels have never hurt him. You can't say that about the other Death Eaters -- they were torturing the campground owner and his family after the Quidditch World Cup, just because they *could*." "Oh wait a second," says Eileen. "Let's go back to your original analysis of Snape. "He's mean to the Gryffindors because he's convinced that they are getting privileges they don't deserve," you said. If there's one thing that's emphasized again and again it's that Malfoy and the others feel that they are being robbed of something that rightfully belongs to them, by the entry of muggleborns into their society. Hardly sane, but neither is this belief that Harry is getting priveleges he doesn't deserve at their first meeting. (Later maybe, but not then.) It's the same type of mindset at work. I can see Snape being very into the pureblood thing as a student." "I still don't buy Snape as having a taste for that sort of thing," says Judy. "Are you an expert in this field?" "No," says Eileen. "I'm not. But I'm going to do something terrible now. I would suggest that, even though she hasn't been able to make a real appearance to defend her theory about Snape, Elkins isn't speaking out of an ignorance of the subject. I consider myself bent and even I was freaked out when I heard about her job for Amnesty International, cataloguing "interrogation techniques," as she calls them. I'm not saying you should endorse Sadist!Snape on her say-so, but be aware that, while I probably don't know what I'm talking about, she does. I just have this sudden urge to protect Elkins from my stupidity. Don't mix her up weighted opinion with mine." Eileen, who really hopes she didn't write anything in the above that will have Elkins shaking her head and wondering what Eileen will say next From potter76 at libero.it Sat Nov 23 22:52:29 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 23:52:29 +0100 (ora solare Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dishwasher!Dumbledore & Assassin!Snape References: Message-ID: <3DE006AD.000003.44517@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 47043 In the middle of all the commotion in The Pink Flamingo bar Abigail catches a whisper: "Psss! Pssss! Hey, Abigail!! This way! Turn this way! Down here in the corner." Half curious , half suspicious she approaches the dark corner of the room where the whisper seems to come from. The voice pleads: "Nooo, please! Don't come closer than that! I'd rather no one saw me, I'm not supposed to be here and if you will be so kind to pretend your not talking or listening to anyone I would really appreciate it! Just ...stand, in the most casual way possible. Thank you very much! I'll be quick, I have to leave this place as soon as possible. " Standing in a dark corner trying to be as natural as possible but feeling kind of stupid, Abigail wonders what got into her to be listening to some lunatic. She tries to make out the shape hiding in darkness. "Well, at least it looks human!" she thinks. The voice goes on: I can't tell you who or what I am, but I know things. You see, I hear things .. in the night... voices, theories...sometimes I also talk to those voices, but not often, I'm told it's no good answering disembodied voices... and I remember lots of things. Recently I heard your voice too and you were sad you were talking to a hairy being and were saying: "I went through quite a few old posts, because I could quite clearly remember you, Grey Wolf, claiming that, even if the books were to end without MAGIC DISHWASHER being corroborated, you wouldn't consider the theory scrapped. Maybe that particular post was never written and exists only in my fevered imagination" I had to come and find you. You see, it's not your imagination I had heard that words too, it was a month ago or so but with these voices always speaking is difficult to be more precise than that. So Abigail, be happy! You're not 'fevered' it exists! Unless... well, unless we dreamt the same dream! But how likely is that?!. Well that's all. I came only for this. It is not much but I don't like to let people believe they imagined things when they didn't. Thank you for listening." Abigail feel a rush of cold wind and a SWOOSH and the shape is gone. R. From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Nov 23 23:18:31 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:18:31 EST Subject: TBAY:Dumbledore's head (was: Re: TBAY: Assassin!Snape, etc) Message-ID: <17d.126267bf.2b1166c7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47044 The waters of Theory Bay were unnaturally still in anticipation of the coming storm. Only the gentle splash of oars steadily rowing disturbed the peaceful, moonlit night. Gradually a huge hulk loomed up over the little rowing boat. "OK, that's it. Can you get up the ladder?" "I think so." "Go on then. Secure the rope at the top and I'll start passing up the goods." A figure deftly climbed the rope ladder and soon a package was being hauled up the side of the ship and onto deck. The second figure heaved itself uncertainly up the side. "Never did like rope ladders.....And that dratted thong...." "Are you *sure* about this?" asked the other woman, "Don't you think she might be a bit miffed at us installing a theory on her own ship under cover of darkness?" "It's for her own good. Honestly, I'm beginning to wonder what's wrong with the woman. We present her with a *huge* Bang and is she interested?" "Not at all. I can't see why." "Well, that's Cindy. She has this idea that something only Bangs if she says it does: 'Humpty Dumptying the Bangs' we call it. What kind of a captain is she, anyway? All that Karkaroff rot. As if that Bangs! No. This theory *belongs* here, whether she recognises it or not!" "Where shall we put it?" "Over here will do. Pass it over, Pip." A rather unwieldy package, whose rather attractive wrappings were somewhat disfigured with blood, was passed over. "Yuck! Why did we suggest decapitation?" "Well, it sounded good at the time. At least you specified it was on a plate." "OK. It's in position. Damn! There's only one gun-port." "You mean you brought can(n)ons?" "Yep! First of all there's the 'I'd trust Hagrid with my life' can(n)on. Clearly an indication that that's the last thing Dumbledore should do and a portent of a Bang to come, if ever I heard one. Cindy should *love* that one - you know how she feels about Hagrid!" "And you've another?" "Yes, although really it's an alternative to the Hagrid one, so perhaps it doesn't matter if there's only one gun port. You might like this one, because it posits that Dumbledore's death is all part of a scheme worked out by Dumbledore and Snape. It's the passage at the end of GoF, where Dumbledore sends Snape on his mission. "You see, I want to suggest that Dumbledore is sending Snape back to Voldemort precisely to prepare the way for his own sacrifice. It seems that Dumbledore has been unable to tell Harry about his destiny up to now. I suggest that he is grooming him for a role that he will be able to take up only when Dumbledore is no longer there, that Dumbledore know that he must pass his mantle as the greatest living wizard on to Harry. As Fawkes has to die before he can rise again, so Dumbledore has to die before Harry can assume his mantle and defeat Voldemort. "Snape, then, has to regain Voldemort's trust and set in motion the train of events that will lead to the 'betrayal' of perhaps the one person who has ever shown him true friendship. No wonder Snape's pale and Dumbledore's apprehensive. "Come on, help me haul these aboard" "Do you think Cindy'll buy it?" "Nah...Not a chance. Oh one last thing. Pass me the Spellotape, would you?" And leaning precariously over the side, Eloise taped a new name over the proudly emblazoned words 'Big Bang'. "There! The Humpty Dumpty!" she said, "And God bless all who sail in her!" "Nice!" said Pip, admiring the beautifully crafted gold chiselled gothic lettering. "Where d'you get it?" "Oh that? Well, don't tell anyone, but I stole it from the Experimental Fonts Laboratory. You know, those fonts Porphyria was working on for Fantastic Posts? It was one of the rejects just lying around, so I thought....you know...well, it seemed a shame to waste it. Don't suppose it'll be there for long, though", she added wistfully. "Come on, we'd better get back. I think there's some stuff I have to see to back at George's" Eloise Hypothetic Alley: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hypotheticalley.html Inish Alley: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 From susannahlm at yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 23:22:53 2002 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (susannahlm) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 23:22:53 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Saboteur!Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47045 Diana was beginning to regret her stint tending bar. Oh sure, at first it had been a great deal of fun--soft job, free drinks, a chance to listen to all those weird (and decidedly Un-Georgian) theories. But then the Tavern got more *crowded*, and the theorists got *louder*, and then they had all gone outside to shoot off their *can(n)ons*, and they were back inside now, but the windows were all open to try and keep the place cool, it was getting so *hot* in here, and so there was *cannon smoke* coming in through the windows, and she was getting a *headache*, and-- The Tavern door burst open and a man flung himself inside, banging the door shut behind himself so hard that a single pane of glass shattered and tinkled to the ground. He wore sleek silver furs to match his graying hair, but his furs were heavily soiled and his hair was oddly disheveled. He looked like he hadn't slept well in weeks. He groped for the deadbolt, flipped it to the locked position, and turned to the business of extinguishing the torches that provided the only light. Diana shrieked and whirled round at the sound of the breaking glass. She took one look at the man and walked straight past him, out the door, into the rain and the wind. A Death Eater, in her brother's bar. She didn't care how awful the weather was, she was going right back to her castle, and it would take a lot to make her leave it. Inside the Tavern, however, things continued pretty much as usual. There had been the briefest of pauses, during which it seemed that Karkaroff's melodramatic entrance might disrupt the party--but Captain Cindy had immediately swooped down upon him and dragged him off, that she might discuss his imminent demise with him. The rest of the room resumed their conversations, although in the dark until George relit all the torches. Cindy guided Karkaroff to her table, bought him a drink, and sat down to resume the argument she'd been conducting with Derannimer and Charis Julia. "Now look," began Captain Cindy. "Let's get something straight here. You ladies seem to be suggesting that if JKR strongly implies that something's going to happen, then it's not going to happen. "I think there's a problem with approaching the fine art of canon predictions in that fashion. For instance, the author strongly implies that Hagrid will go on a mission with the Giants, right? She also strongly implies that Sirius will go to Lupin. Are you two saying that that won't happen in OoP because it is too obvious?" "No but--" says Derannimer. "No, if the author hints strongly at something in the books about developments in a future book, she tends to be true to her word. PoA is a perfect example of this. 'The Dark Lord will rise again with his servant's aid, greater and more terrible than he ever was.' And that is exactly what happened in GoF, right?" "Yes but--" says Charis Julia. "JKR doesn't mind telling us what will happen from one book to the next, but she is quite sneaky about never telling us *how* it will happen. So the smart money says that Hagrid will go on some sort of mission to the Giants, that Sirius will round up the old crowd and Snape will spy for Voldemort. The--" "CAPTAIN!" Derannimer yells. Cindy blinks. "What?" she asks. "How can you possibly disagree with what I said? Every word of it is the truth. Sometimes, JKR does let us know what she's going to do. There is simply no way that you can argue with that." "Yes, but *look*," protests Derannimer. "Your examples won't *work*." Cindy's eyes narrow slightly. Derannimer is glad that she is on the other side of the table. Cindy could still throw a bottle at her, but she could still duck. "What do you *mean*, my examples won't work," asks Cindy, fingers unconciously stroking the handle of a thankfully absent Big Paddle. Derannimer isn't entirely sure why she's still talking, but she continues anyway. "In the Trelawny example and the old crowd example, JKR doesn't "hint" at what's going to happen--she *tells us* what's going to happen; or rather she has Dumbledore tell us. She has Dumbledore refer to Professor Trelawny's prediction as a real one, she has Dumbledore give Sirius his orders. There is absolutely no question at all that Dumbledore is right about Trelawny--why would he be? presumably he would recognize the description of a real Trelawny Trance, since she's had one before--and absolutely no question at all that Sirius is going where Dumbledore tells him to go--not unless you're suggesting RankInsubordination!Sirius, anyway. Neither of those events is a *mystery*, unlike Snape's task. That *is* a mystery. And while JKR may sometimes *tell us what's going to happen*, she very rarely *hints that obviously at the solution to a *mystery**." "Two." Cindy spoke very quietly. "What?" said Derannimer, trying not to blink. Cindy's eyes were boring into hers. It was exactly like trying to stare down a hippogriff. Derannimer tried hard not to blink. "Two examples. What about the third? What about Hagrid?" Derannimer winced. She had sort of been hoping not to have to go there. "Um," she said. "Well, yes. "I agree, the third one is harder--" "Ha!" said Cindy. "--but it's not impossible. You basically said that the obvious nature of Hagrid's mission proves that Snape could be a spy. Well. . . "Yeah. Snape could be a spy. I concede the point." "Ha HA!" said Cindy. Derannimer glared briefly at her. Then she abruptly smiled and resumed speaking, in a suddenly very sweet voice. "But I never meant that Snape couldn't be a spy. I simply meant that there is no Bang with Snape the Spy. After all. . . "Yes, there could be a great deal of violence and angst and such with Snape the Spy. But no more than with Snape the Saboteur. And you still have not addressed the fact that 95% of readers, no matter how casaul or even lazy, already believe in Snape the Spy. It can't Bang; it's too well established." There is a very slight frown on Cindy's face. Her forehead has wrinkled, as if in concentration. "Sounds familiar, doesn't it?" asks Derannimer quietly. >*No way* is Cindy going for any of those alternative Memory Charm >theories because. . . they are all sizzle and no Bang. No >Bang at all. Lots of allegations of corruption and collusion and >such, that's true, but no more so than in MATCHINGARMCHAIR. >In the final analysis, though, we're talking about that same old >Traditional Memory Charm that 90% of readers worked out on their >own. Nothing can change the fact that, no matter how much you dress >up those Traditional Memory Charm theories, *there's no potential >Bangy plot twist with Memory Charm Neville because we've all been >ready for it since the end of GoF.* [message 38921, italics in the last sentence mine.] "I know it's not really *that strong* of an argument, but hey; good enough for you, good enough for me." Derannimer (who thinks that Saboteur!Snape needs a good acronym, and would like to officially request one, as long as Charis Julia (who he belongs to, after all) has no objection) From speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 24 00:21:16 2002 From: speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com (r f) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:21:16 +0000 Subject: TBAY: More Snape, Snape and Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47046 Sorry this took so long to post due to a wonky connection on the home dial-up. We're too far out from "The City" to have DSL or cable or anything twenty-first century. The scene has moved on, but for what it's worth (two cents), here's my contribution: "Is that woman okay?" Wendy asked the others as a sniffling Dicentra ran from the room, her red cape billowing after. "Ah, don't worry about her," Eileen answered. "Well, to answer your question, probably not, but it's still nothing to worry about." "Okay." Wendy looked thoughtful again. "I did really like that canon of hers. You know the one about Dumbledore. That's pretty compelling evidence that Snape could have actually been a full-fledged, card-carryin', bloody-handed Death Eater." She studied Eileen, and then grinned. "You didn't pay her to tell me that, considering you're in the middle of a conversion attempt and all?" Suddenly, tangled in a FEATHERBOA, Frankie stumbled into Wendy and flung an arm around her shoulders. Obviously drunk on one too many undiluted theories, Frankie grined lopsidedly at Eileen. "Your boy George is one smooth talker...," she said. Eileen raised an eyebrow at the interruption and then glared at George who avoided catching her eye. "You're the one with the squicky ideas, aren't you?" Frankie slurs to Wendy. "Ideas about Karkaroff or Voldemort sexually exploiting a teenage Snape! Well, missy, what about the end of Goblet of Fire and Barty Crouch Jr.? Cute little blond kid, freckles, his daddy doesn't love him... Listen to what he says to Harry! ************* "I will be his dearest, his closest supporter... closer than a son..." U.S. hardback edition, page 678 ************ If anybody's being taken advantage of in that oh-so-special way, it's young Bartimus Crouch!" Wendy snatches the book. "Hmmm," she says. "Well, where there's one altar boy, there's another..." Frankie shakes her head sagely and taps the side of her nose. "I don't think so," she sniggers. "But you can think whatever you want to. Speaking of, where are these people who think Snape was a *nice* DE? I'll take 'em all on single-handed!!" Frankie shouts and dances on her toes like a tiny, tipsy prize-fighter. "With what?" asked Eileen, grinning. "Oh, er, how about this?" said Frankie, flipping open Prisoner of Azkaban. ********** Snape's behavior to him had been quite alarming. Harry wouldn't have thought it possible that Snape's dislike for him could increase, but it certainly had. A muscle twitched unpleasantly at the corner of Snape's thin mouth every time he looked at Harry and he was constantly flexing his fingers, as though itching to place them around Harry's throat. U.S. hardback, pages 429 & 430 ********** This man very VERY close to snapping, folks! It's restraining order time! Only Snape's arrangement (whatever it is-- I'm a Magic Dishwasher adherent and so are my friends, so nyah... ) with Dumbledore stands between Snape and actual violence." Frankie swayed alarmingly and clutched Wendy's arm and Eileen's chair to keep from tipping over backwards. "And what about this?" she added, managing to remain upright. "This bit in Chamber of Secrets? Fitch is sobbing over his petrified cat and all Snape can do is try to keep a straight face." *************** "Snape loomed behind them, half in shadow, wearing a most peculiar expression: It was though he was trying hard not to smile." U.S. hardback, page 141 ********* See? He finds people in anguish FUNNY! Besides, he's the potions master. They use all sorts of icky things like newts' eyes and crocodile hearts. Bezoars are found in goats' stomachs, and goats keep their stomachs inside their skin!! Gore is part of Snape's job description! I could just see him teaming up with MacNair to... to *obtain* various potions ingredients. I mean, all Wormtail had to do was cut of his own living hand. I can think of far worse..." Frankie shuddered and turned slightly green under her tan skin. She wobbled a bit and caught hold of the table, staring across the tavern. "When I see four Snapes, it's time to lie down," she announced. Assasin!Snape, SoulSucked!Snape, TimeTurner!Snape and Sabateur!Snape leered at each other. They watched her stagger to the table occupied by Abigail, Pip!Squeak and Grey Wolf. Eyeing the werewolf, they changed their minds about their evening entertainment and returned to editing the hit list. Frankie, a canon-oholic who thinks DeathEater!Snape was up to his elbows in blood, guts and gore, but loves him anyway. Intro was lifted from the end of Wendy's post #47001 _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 24 00:37:53 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:37:53 -0000 Subject: TBAY: MD's third strain QB(a side venture from Spy!Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47047 The Pipsqueak sits quietly in the invisibility cloak she'd borrowed from Stoned!Harry, listening to Abigail get rather heated. Melody is holding her own, however (and the Pipsqueak is glad to see that George hasn't tried serving alcohol to her ? she hates to think what some of TBAY's Very Special Old Bloodthirsty Brandy would do to that little body). Melody is explaining to Alla that DISHWASHER is disprovable: "If, in fact, we find out in future books that Dumbledore has not been scheming and planning and it is proven that he in fact has not helped bring about the rebodiment of Voldemort, then MD is disproven and there would be a big party thrown by Marina at the tavern I assure you." Melody then spots Abigail holding forth, and with a look of determination on her face, strolls over to confront her. The Pipsqueak, meantime, drifts over to Alla, and sits down on a (fortunately) empty chair. "Melody's right, you know" Alla jumps about a foot in the air at the disembodied voice speaking in her ear. "TheresNothingToIt!" She gasps. "Sorry, but no." says the Pipsqueak. She lets the invisibility cloak fall onto her shoulders, so that Alla can see it's her. Judging by the look on Alla's face, she preferred the disembodied voice to the disembodied head. "Alla, you're going to have to get used to this sort of thing in TBAY. Look around you. Is anyone else bothered?" Alla looks. Dicentra, in her red Sirius Apologist outfit, has just burst in the door and announced `Nobody ever expects the Sirius Apologists', in blatant defiance of the fact that the entire bar had been wondering when they were going to turn up. Captain Cindy is doing a cabaret act in the back room. A large dog is wandering around the two rooms, sitting in front of the tables and wagging his tail hopefully. Every so often people notice him, and a mass shout goes up of `WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING THE PRANK!' At which point the dog whines, and someone feeds him a crisp [US: potato chip]. Grey Wolf has wandered into a dim corner and is discussing large, red, bloody steaks with Pippin [or should that be large, red, bloody stakes?]. Elkins is in a corner, writing frantically, and providing quotes on request. Eileen is getting a certain glint in her eye. Stoned!Harry, tired of tripping over his Sirius Apologist outfit, has decided it's easier to float several inches above the floor. Nobody is the slightest bit bothered about the disembodied head. "I see your point." says Alla. "So DISHWASHER is disprovable?" "Yes. The difficulty is that it's largely a `secret background conspiracy' theory. The problem with these theories is that they're about things that are, well, secret. Going into metathinking for a moment "I'm sorry, but what IS metathinking?" says Alla. "And why is it supposed to be so bad?" "Ah. Well, metathinking isn't bad in itself." Says the Pipsqueak. She pulls out the Safe House issue voice recorder. "I'm sure I've got a little record somewhere of an off-list chat I had with Phyllis ? she liked the definition I gave there." The Pipsqueak plays the recorder at high speed, listening intently. "Ah, here it is!" she says. The Pipsqueak's own voice issues from the recorder: " 'Metathinking' - it's a question of levels. DISHWASHER is based on a 'within the book ' viewpoint, where the books and characters are treated as if they are real events, real characters, and real motivations. In that context, going up a level so you're looking at the books from the OUTSIDE is regarded as 'not fair play' simply because the theory doesn't have that viewpoint. DISHWASHER wouldn't take into account the quite clear thrust within the *books* that killing people is wrong, though it might argue that Dumbledore or Harry appear to believe it because of their actions *within* the text." The Pipsqueak switched the recorder off. "So you see," she says, "When I tried to show within DISHWASHER that Snape and Dumbledore wouldn't assassinate Karkaroff because that is morally wrong, I couldn't use the fact that the *books as a whole* believe that. Instead ( in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/46945 ) I have to list the canon actions of Snape and Dumbledore and say, judging by their actions so far, they try not to kill *anyone*." The Pipsqueak grinned. "On the other hand, when the DISHWASHER is switched off, [she clicks her fingers, and the whirring sound that has been heard softly in the background suddenly stops ] Grey, Melody and I are as capable as anyone else of using a higher level `outside the books' viewpoint." "Uh, huh." Says Alla. "So why does that make something like DISHWASHER difficult to disprove?" "Because DISHWASHER is like LOLLIPOPS. It's a backstory theory. Backstories are things worked out by the author that may never actually make it into the published novels. JKR may well have decided that Snape was in love with Lily Evans (later Lily Potter), but unless it becomes vital to the *plot*, we might never read about it. And LOLLIPOPS is also going to be incredibly difficult to disprove, except by direct canon contradiction. Face it ? Snape says he hated Lily? He's embarrassed by his feelings for her (Draco-Hermione shippers have no problem with that one). Snape turns out to be gay? Lily was his gay icon, so to speak. Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape was never in love with Lily? We go into the `just good friends variant'. Practically the only thing that could disprove LOLLIPOPS absolutely is if Harry refers to his mother as `Lily Evans' and Snape stares blankly at him and says `Who?' Similarly, DISHWASHER is an attempt to explain the backstory, to connect up what has so far seemed to *Harry* to be a series of unconnected events ? that he goes to school and finds people trying to commit theft and general mayhem every year. Plus people seem to try and kill him a lot. The DISHWASHER theory, like LOLLIPOPS, has developed a lot of variants. But basically, as Melody says, it is saying that both Voldemort *and* Dumbledore are doing a lot of scheming and planning. " The Pipsqueak plays her voice recorder again. This time it's Melody's voice which comes out: "MD's hands are completely tied to the fact that Dumbledore is a general of war and that he has made aggressive strategic plans to end the war." Pipsqueak continues: "One of the schemes by Dumbledore is the `Flawed Potion' plan. And if it is shown that Dumbledore did NOT intend Voldemort to re-embody himself at all, that Dumbledore never made any strategic plans to put a final end to the Voldemort threat, then the DISHWASHER gets chucked out of the Safe House." "So the DISHWASHER is not the same thing as the Safe House?" says Alla, obviously puzzled. "NO! The Safe House is a haven for spies, conspiracy theorists, and fans of Agatha Christie. It's very much associated with the DISHWASHER because DISHWASHER *is* based around the idea of an intelligence war ? so DISHWASHER supporters usually have a room in the Safe House. But residents can always wash their own dishes if they like ? you don't have to use any magical kitchen appliances at all to move into the Safe House." The Pipsqueak suddenly realises that she may have been a little vehement. Alla is shrinking back into her chair, trying to make herself look as small and harmless as possible. "The reason the inhabitants keep saying that the Safe House is canon- proof," she says, trying to keep her voice as gentle as possible, "is that the Safe House is built out of canon. Spies are canon. That Dumbledore has used spies in the past is canon. That Voldemort has used spies and undercover agents is canon. The DISHWASHER is not proof against Hurricane Jo. The Safe House is." [ see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/45528 ]. The Pipsqueak grins cheerfully at Alla. For some reason this seems to make Alla feel even more nervous. "You'll get used to this, Alla." She says. "Try some of the brandy, why don't you? Or perhaps you'd prefer a cup of tea? Or George's Turkish Coffee?' She wraps Stoned!Harry's Invisibility cloak back round her head and drifts gently over to the bar, where Abigail is trying to persuade George to give her credit. "Oh, buy her a drink, George. Or I'll pay if you're too stingy." George blinks thoughtfully, but is quite used to disembodied voices in his bar. "I'd like to actually *see* some money first, please." "Oops. Sorry, George." The Pipsqueak unwraps the cloak, and hands over some cash. "Do you actually happen to have a teapot this time, George?" "All in use, I'm afraid. Pina Colada for the lady, and a pint of tea for you, then?" "Fine." The Pipsqueak turns to Abigail, who started slightly on being called a `lady'. "About this `ends justifies the means' argument." She clicks the voice recorder: Abigail smiles impishly. "MAGIC DISHWASHER is rather firmly based in the character of a pragmatic Dumbledore, who believes that sacrifices are necessary in order for the greater good to prevail - that sounds like putting the ends before the means to me. " "You know, it's amazing how many people will smugly say `that sounds like putting the ends before the means' to me, and think that this immediately implies that the person concerned will condone having babies for lunch if it's for a good enough reason." says the Pipsqueak. George arrives with the tea and Pina Colada. "Thanks, George. My change? Take a drink yourself, why don't you?" She sips the tea. "Personally, I feel that the only correct answer to `do the ends justify the means' is to ask yourself `which ends, which means' and then proceed on a case by case basis. End: Ridding the world of a very powerful, evil and immortal megalomaniac. Means: letting him become temporarily *more* powerful because that will ultimately make him more vulnerable. Alternative: Do nothing, allow Voldemort to continue murdering Albanian peasants and stray DADA teachers, hope Voldemort doesn't find his own re-embodiment solution. Leave the entire problem to the next generation. Yup, the alternative sounds really moral to me." "That is not what I am actually talking about!" says Abigail in exasperation. "why it's best to resurrect Voldemort now rather then wait in the hopes that he is never resurrected - I know that argument and it makes sense to me, but it's hardly germane to this discussion. The point for me is that Dumbledore set events in motion that brought about people's deaths." The fact that he isn't responsible for those deaths doesn't exonerate him from complicity in them. Or at least it shouldn't. And here I *am* going to make a moral determination. A Dumbledore who could look at the deaths of Bertha Jorkins, and Frank Bryce, and Cedric Diggory, and the many deaths that are coming and say 'I had no hand in that' *is* immoral, and I want nothing to do with him." The Pipsqueak glares. "And my point is that the alternative he had was to leave a sequence of events in motion that would still have resulted in people's deaths. Voldemort is a killer. Voldemort has no need whatsoever to kill Cedric. He could have had Pettigrew use Snape's rope trick, tied Cedric up, and had him completely unable to help Harry in any way. But he just orders `the spare' killed. Note that in the graveyard scene Voldemort says "I could possess the bodies of others I dared not go where other humans were *plentiful* I *sometimes* inhabited animals I could not hope that I would be sent another *wizard* to possess " [GoF Ch.33 pp.567 ? 568 UK hardback, all my emphasis]. Or in other words, Voldemort can possess the bodies of humans, he went where there were some humans, not no humans around, he only *sometimes* used animals and he was really after a wizard, not a muggle. So if a stray muggle had wandered in Voldemort's way when Vapormort's current animal body was nearing the end of its useful life, what exactly do you think happened to them? " "That's not explicitly canon,"said Abigail. The Pipsqueak shrugs. "No, it's not explicitly stated in canon that Frank Bryce was not the first muggle that Voldemort killed since Harry vaporised him. It's simply implied. And we know Voldemort killed people as Vapormort, because he killed Quirrel by possessing him. Dumbledore in PS/SS thinks post Quirrel Vapormort might be `perhaps looking for another body to share' [PS/SS p.216 Ch.17 UK paperback] ? I don't really think Dumbledore means that Voldemort's looking for a handy hampster. So Dumbledore has a choice: he can look at the deaths of Bertha Jorkins, Frank Bryce and Cedric Diggory and say `If it wasn't for my plan you might not have died, but I am trying to give your deaths some point, trying to destroy the evil that killed you'. Or he can look at the other, unnamed deaths that Voldemort has caused and (given Voldemort's nature *will* cause) and say ? `I have done nothing about this at all. Sorry. Personally I don't want to get my hands dirty. It's unfortunate you died, of course, but it wasn't as a direct result of any plan of mine, so it's nothing to do with me.'" The Pipsqueak pauses, and takes a swig of tea to moisten her throat. "You cannot avoid moral choices by inaction. Inaction is itself a moral choice." Abigail gives the Pipsqueak an old-fashioned look. ""You know, I don't think you DISHWASHER people are as morally relativist as you like to think. And, boy, do you ever have a persecution complex!" "I think it's always been our detractors who regard Dishwasher! Dumbledore as morally relativist, actually," says the Pipsqueak. "I think that to be making pragmatic decisions, hard choices, assessments that these particular means are justified by this particular end, Dumbledore would need a very solid moral core indeed. It is not moral relativism to say that sometimes you may have to commit a sin to prevent an even greater sin. It's a fact of life. But to wade your way through this minefield you need to have a very clear idea of what is, in fact, the greater evil. So Dishwasher! Dumbledore has allowed one murderer to escape and allowed an innocent man to continue wrongly accused ? because what he is trying to prevent is ultimately the rise of another megalomaniac who will kill and torture millions. Read the canon history of what it was like in the Voldemort Wars Phase I. [Various places in GoF] *That* is what Dumbledore is trying to stop." Abigail sniffs. "Melody's already argued that Dishwasher!Dumbledore is still working within a moral compass. My point is that he no longer has the luxury of saying 'this is a line I won't cross'. Dumbledore passed the point of no return long ago - he is now committed to this course of action and *must* - if he is to maintain any credibility - stop at nothing to achieve his goal." "Nuts." Replied the Pipsqueak firmly. "There is no point in defeating Voldemort if you've made yourself exactly like him. Nor is `ends justify the means' necessarily a philosophy of life. Again, it's a question of are these particular means justified by this particular end. Would the purpose of getting Snape back into Voldemort's camp justify the murder of Igor Karkaroff? No." "Why not?" says Abigail. "Two reasons. One, Dumbledore believes in second chances. Killing Karkaroff means he no longer has any chance at all ? nor does he have any chance to make future choices, choices that might, unlikely as it seems, be to fight on Dumbledore's side against Voldemort. Second, it might not work. Voldemort would certainly be happy to murder anyone to get a spy in Dumbledore's camp ? why should he believe that Snape wouldn't be prepared to do the same? Snape's an ex-DE for goodness sake! Why do you think he's so flaming hot on teaching kids antidotes if it isn't because he's cooked up and *used* a lot of poisons in his time? So, Karkaroff's death would be a) evil and b) not certainly successful. Also, it really might not have a good effect on Snape himself, who currently seems (as Elkins argues) to avoid physical violence with the grim determination of the reformed alcoholic avoiding a little drop of whisky. No, these particular means would not be justifiable by the end of getting Snape back into the DE's happy circle." "Isn't that three reasons?" says Abigail. "Well, two reasons why killing Karkaroff isn't justifiable, and an additional point about its moral effect on Snape." The Pipsqueak pauses. "You see, when I said that the route back in for Snape is providing Dumbledore's head on a platter, I was only half joking. I don't think Dumbledore is actually going to ask Snape to kill him. But I do think he might well send Snape back to Voldemort (and this may be Book 6 rather than Book 5 ? Snape's current mission might have nothing to do with going back to Voldemort), with some really juicy information about some weakness of Dumbledore's. For example, that Dumbledore is really atrocious at fighting balrogs, and has never mastered the levitation charm that protects you when you fall off bridges. There, the means are justified by the ends. Snape will be in ? Voldemort is not going to believe he's a Dumbledore supporter when he's just supplied the information that killed Dumbledore. It isn't evil - Dumbledore has consented willingly to supplying this information, seeing his own death as necessary in this war. [Plus going on a necessary mission that's 99 percent certain to kill you isn't actually suicide, just as removing artificial means of preserving your life isn't actually suicide]. And it provides the ultimate answer to the ghosts of all those people who have died as a result of Dumbledore's plans. Yes, he's partly responsible for their deaths. But he is willing to die himself in the war against Voldemort." The Pipsqueak stops, takes a sip of tea, and looks thoughtfully at Abigail's Pina Colada. "Tell me," she says "how do you actually manage to drink that stuff?" Pip Hypothetic Alley: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hypotheticalley.html Inish Alley: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 The DISHWASHER has two major posts http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39662 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40044 A summary post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39854 plus nearly two hundred posts arguing for and against it. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40421 for the introductory Safe House post. From klekatgirl at yahoo.com Sun Nov 24 01:06:29 2002 From: klekatgirl at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:06:29 -0000 Subject: Peeves Not A Real Ghost? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47048 I am re-reading SS/PS and I came across something curious on pf. 115. This is what it said: "My dear Friar, haven't we given Peeves all the chances he deserves? He gives us all a bad name and you know, he's not really even a ghost- I say, what are you all doing here?" Sir Nicholas is the one speaking in this quote. What does he mean when he says Peeves isn't really a ghost? Was there something in the other three books that I forgot telling why is isn`t a real ghost? What does everyone think of this? Karen From n_a_pennington at yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 23:29:12 2002 From: n_a_pennington at yahoo.com (n_a_pennington) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 23:29:12 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Prank...some thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47049 I'm new here so hello to everyone. >>>Judy said: In Sirius' defense, however, we don't know his motivations, just as Penny said. My interpretation is that he *wasn't* trying to kill Snape or get him turned into a werewolf. I think Sirius was just trying to scare Snape, and hadn't thought through the consequences. He hadn't considered how dangerous it would be. Let me just start out by saying that Sirius is my absolute favorite character, so i tend to be a bit biased. That being said, yes, we don't know the motivation for said prank. But I do believe that it has been VERY well established that Sirius has one nasty temper. He's also extremely loyal. IMHO, whatever Snape did to "deserve" this prank, was done to one of the marauders or someone who Sirius felt like he needed to protect, maybe even himself. I do believe he was intending to seriously injure Snape in the process, and at the very very least to scare him half to death. As to why Dumbledore didn't expell Sirius, he must have had his reasons. Maybe it wasn't in their best interest to expell him. Perhaps it was to protect Lupin as some have suggested. I'll have to think about that more I guess. :) --n a pennington From alicit at aol.com Sun Nov 24 02:35:29 2002 From: alicit at aol.com (alicit at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:35:29 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Peeves Not A Real Ghost? Message-ID: <12d.1bad41d6.2b1194f1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47050 Well, from my limited knowledge of ghosts: I think that Nick here is referring to Peeves being a poltergeist instead of a ghost. However, Peeves isn't the classical sort of poltergeist, if he was, Nick would be right about him not being a ghost, but there doesn't seem to be a distinction between the two in the Potterverse. Let me explain *clears throat* A ghost is the spirit of someone who has died that haunts either the place they died, where they are buried (or not...) or another place that had some importance to them in life. They are usually not aware of people/objects that are in the present world, although they are aware of objects that were in their world. (i.e. they may go to a bed that was in the house when they lived there, if there is currently a bed there, they may seem to interact with it) Sometimes ghosts interact with people, usually it is when the people are doing something that is similar to their life/death experiences. In summary: ghosts-not aware of surroundings, aware of past Poltergeists are souls that haunt the place where they died/are buried. They do not usually have an identity (Peeves is unusual in this) that is brought over from their real life. Unless Peeves has only been named after his death, he doesn't seem to have much of a history or any reason for being where he is. Poltergeists are famous for disrupting objects in the places they haunt. They do this presumably because the new objects disrupt their reality, which is stuck on how the room was before they died. They do not have form (another way in which Peeves is odd) and do not communicate, except for the few who write on walls and such. Summary: Poltergeists-not aware of past, aware of surroundings. This is perhaps not what was meant in the book, but it may be the basis. After all, neither the resident ghosts nor Peeves seem to fit our normal requisites for what makes a ghost. -Scheherazade [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dicentra at xmission.com Sun Nov 24 03:19:01 2002 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 03:19:01 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Snape and the Prank...some thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47051 Dicentra hesitates at the door of the tavern. She wants to go home but she's afraid to leave. A bunch of people are frolicking with a large black dog named Prank just outside the door. Dicentra has developed a distinct distaste for that particular dog: he always has that wet dog smell, he is overly boistrous, knocking people over and covering them with muddy paw prints, and he always, *always* overstays his welcome. She hears one of the frolickers call out, "I've been wondering where all the Sirius Apologists are--I've been expecting them!" That's Judy's voice, a known Snapefan. Dicentra mutters to her companion, Stoned!Harry. "If they're expecting us, that means we can't show up, doesn't it?" Stoned!Harry nods, though it's unlikely he understood what Dicentra was talking about. "Besides, the conversation isn't taking place in The Bay, so I can't wear these nifty red robes, and worse--I can't bring young Harry with me. "But if you want Sirius Apologetics, I've got enough here to choke a horse." ********* 33857 Eileen Not to scare him, as his defenders insist. Not to kill him, as Snape insists. But to have Lupin bite him, making Snape a werewolf. Maybe, Sirius thought that arrogant, bigoted Snape deserved to see the world from the point of the down and out like Lupin. This could especially work if Snape was close on Lupin's track, and had almost figured it out. Now, that's a way of silencing somebody. And to Sirius's mind, it's not as bad as we might think. After all, his best friend, Lupin, was a werewolf, and that didn't spoil HIS life. (Though, of course, we know that it did... later.) Think about it. ********* 33886 Tabouli S.T.A.T.I.C.S.A.P. (Sirius' Trick Aimed To Instruct Callous Snape About Prejudice) ********* 25196 Kelly the Yarn Junkie When discussing the 'joke', I think most people fail to take into consideration Sirius' opinion of *Lupin*. I think that Sirius never believed that Snape would be in physical danger because, in the teenaged mind of Sirius Black, Lupin was 'under control'. We're explicitly told that under the influence of his friends, Lupin's time as a werewolf was becoming less savage. By the time the trick was played Sirius was probably so used to dealing with Lupin's lycanthropy that he came to think of it as a sort of wolf-animagus transformation and not as something highly dangerous. This happens every day: people get accustomed to doing something dangerous and fail to practice CONSTANT VIGILANCE resulting in sometimes fatal tragedy. So, when he told Severus how to get past the Whomping Willow, the young Sirius figured Snape would be *scared* but not hurt. ********* 25186 Gwen I don't know exactly what triggered Sirius to act that way (and I don't think it was a woman, Lily or otherwise), but he was obviously very cheesed with Snape over something. Perhaps it was simply a moment of weakness, or a cumulative frustration at Snape's constant badgering, but for whatever reason, I think Sirius snapped. Without thinking about it, he gave Severus the information he sought. "You wanna know? Fine. I'll tell you. Press the knot...." I believe that the moment Snape left him, he realized what he'd done, and regretted it. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he went and told James out of shame and fear. He knew, at that point, that he couldn't stop Snape--Snape would not have believed him. ("Wait, Snape! Don't. It's a trap. I was hasty. I shouldn't have told you." Yeah, right. That would have stopped him.) James's horror rivaled _Sirius's own_ at what he'd just done, and the implications for both Snape and Lupin (though I believe Sirius continued not to care about Snape, it was Lupin's fate that worried him). It was a stupid, foolish, unthinking, childish thing to do. I believe that as soon as it happened, Sirius slapped his forehead and thought, "Holy crow. What am I, an idiot? A murderer?" and ran to James to help make it right. I think it's one of the biggest regrets of his life, and one of the hardest things he had to come to terms with--realizing that he is the kind of person who would put two people's lives at risk so callously. It made him grow up quick. And to think that he _could_ betray a friend like that is what made it so much easier for him to lose his mind when James and Lily died. I think it's another motivation behind his initial offer of Secret Keeper--to prove to himself he can keep the confidence of his friends. Then he screws it up again by giving it to Peter. I believe that next to losing James and Lily, this memory was the one that replayed itself in his mind most constantly in Azkaban. And I think it's something that still bothers him, that he's conscious of in making decisions to help Harry. He has a lot to make up for, and it's not just for trusting Peter. I think he is terrified that he will betray again. It's what makes him such an upstanding guy when he gets out--he's committed to making sure justice is done, even if that justice initially is a little insane and skewed. *********** 20900 Monika Huebner It seems that [Sirius] was quite immature at 16 when he told Snape about the Whomping Willow (but he did *not* drag him into the tunnel, Snape's own behavior was just as immature, let's face it), but I am still convinced that Sirius' violent outbursts in PoA have *nothing* to do with overall poor impulse control. (If I bore you, just don't read on.) They look way more like a pretty classic symptom of post-traumatic stress disorder. I'd like to see the individual that would go through what Sirius has gone through and get away without being traumatized. But then, I might be biased because he is my favorite. I just can't see him as a violent git, and the fact that he didn't lose it any more in GoF after recovering for a few months seems to corroborate the theory that his losing control is more likely a symptom of PTSD than a character trait. ************ 28290 Sara [Sirius] was a 16 year old boy when he did that and 16 year old boys do not think before they act. If it was the other way round, do you really think Snape would have been mature enough to think before he acted? I doubt it. He probably would have carried it off as well, and thought it was really funny too. Maybe he might have thought better of it at the last moment, maybe he wouldn't. I think in way, Snape's showing his immaturity in not being able to let it drop (yeah I know, it was a big deal, he could have died/ended up a werewolf, he could have ruined Lupins life even more as well... but again, if the boot was on the other foot etc.) by holding a grudge against Harry for the actions of Harry's father. He's acting incredibly childish by doing that. ************* 28298 Cindy Sirius did a dreadful thing with the prank, abusing his friendship with Lupin for personal reasons, putting his friend at risk, risking Snape's life, all without receiving any significant consequences for his conduct. On the other hand, he has been the victim of a dreadful betrayal at the hand of his friend Pettigrew, which cost him 12 years in Azkaban and a lifetime of guilt. Sirius badly abused a friendship, and he was badly abused by a friend. It kind of evens out when you look at it that way, so I figure Sirius has more than paid for what he tried to do to Snape. ************* 28313 Carole I'm amongst the crowd that think "the prank" was something a foolish 16 (do we know he was even *that* old?) did. And remember...Sirius did not tell Severus to go to the whomping willow, tap the knot and go in." All Sirius did was tell Snape where Lupin went each month. Snape took it upon himself to act on that info. Now given Sirius knew Snape was the type that probably would...but no one compelled Snape to sneak out of the school one night act on the info provided. I can really hear a teen guy saying "yeah I'll tell you where he went you nosy git" and really not consider the consequences of that statement. ************* Oh yeah, and what Penny said in 47039. And that's all I have to say on THAT subject. --Dicentra, who is making full use of the newly posted SiriFAQ at http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ From smiller_92407 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 24 03:41:29 2002 From: smiller_92407 at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 03:41:29 -0000 Subject: TBAY: More Snape, Snape and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47052 All this Snape awareness has brought something to my attention. I know that at this point, it is extremely unlikely that some point of canon has not been addressed, but I didn't find anything, so here goes: Just to add to the Snape confusion of who he supports, is he a double- or triple-agent or whatever, let's go back to the Dark Mark summons to the graveyard. All the DE's apparated to the family reunion when summoned, except for a few. At the time, it is likely that our professor was preparing for this term's classes at Hogwarts. From whence, one cannot apparate. What if this was the primary reason that he wasn't there? Victimized, or saved, by the conflicting curse syndrome? If so, then maybe his absence from the circle can't be used to infer anything? Carrying the condition further, can we be certain that Hogwarts is the only wizarding location that is similarly protected? We know that some of the missing were in Azkhaban, but what if some of the others who didn't show were simply behind a curtain of protection, too? What if Voldemort's influence is greater than we think? It would be just like Voldemort to forget about this, too, when he is taking role and making comments about the missing. For an Evil Overlord, he does miss some important gotchas. ~Constance Vigilance, who is so outclassed in this group and rarely has anything to say, hopes that she has actually presented something new to the party ~ From Audra1976 at aol.com Sun Nov 24 03:46:27 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:46:27 EST Subject: Peeves Not A Real Ghost? Message-ID: <6a.2996d56b.2b11a593@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47053 In a message dated 23/11/2002 21:48:50 Eastern Standard Time, alicit at aol.com writes: > Poltergeists are souls that haunt the place where they died/are buried. > They > do not usually have an identity (Peeves is unusual in this) that is brought > over from their real life. Me: This has been stated before, but for the new memebers, actually, the common consensus in parapsychology now is that Poltergeists (though the name is German for "noisy" ghost") are not the spirits of dead people at all, but an uncontollable psychic energy field that centers around or is eminated from a person, usually an adolescent boy or girl. There are a lot of adolescent boys and girls at Hogwarts, and all are of the magical persuasion, so probably have more than their fair share of psychic ability to begin with. A Poltergeist manifests telekinetically, doing things like hurling objects across the room, breaking things, flicking lights, etc, which is obviously a real nuisance to a person and their family, which is why "Peeves" is an excellent nickname for a Poltergeist. HP's Peeves may be particularly distinct, and particularly pesky because he is the collective Poltergeist of all the magical students at Hogwarts. Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kaityf at jorsm.com Sun Nov 24 04:16:23 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:16:23 -0600 Subject: Snape and the Potters Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021123212330.0127dbc8@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47054 Here's another thought about Snape. It's born from idle thinking about Harry's dream in PS/SS, the one he had after the feast following the sorting ceremony. He was dreaming that he was wearing Quirrel's turban, which was telling him to transfer into Slytherin and which Harry replied he didn't want to be there. He was struggling to get the turban off and then saw Malfoy laughing at him, "...then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher, Snape, whose laugh became high and cold -- there was a burst of green light and Harry woke...." Now I realize that this is a dream, but on rereading it, I wondered if it might hold some significance, and then my imagination took over. We know he remembers a green light. Then we know from his experiences with the dementors in PoA that he heard a high-pitched laugh when his mother was being killed. I started to wonder if Harry's dream is actually something of a memory. And if it is a memory, might it be possible that Lucius Malfoy was there as well? Draco looks like his father -- at least the have the same pointy nose -- and his father 11 years earlier would certainly look even more like the younger Draco. Might Snape also have been there? I know the movie doesn't show the scene this way, but that's the movie. The book, as far as I know, does not specify that Voldemort was alone when he went to kill the Potters. I started thinking that maybe Snape ended up there actually to save the Potters while still under cover as a DE. Perhaps he knew that Voldemort was going to get the Potters that night, and he had to go to save James. After all, James had saved Snape and Snape was therefore under his debt. Lucius might have been there just because he's evil and enjoys torture and killing. At the end of GoF, Voldemort does make the comment to Lucius about his being ready to once again take the lead in a bit of Muggle torture. We know he dislikes Muggles and mudbloods, so it's not unlikely that he would like to kill Lilly or at least be in on it. Or it might be something else. Anyway, Snape in his attempt to save the Potters would have to blow his cover and put himself at great personal risk to do so. Once Voldemort failed in his attempt to kill Harry, turned into Vapormort and slithered away, Lucius and Snape would have to come up with some plan to explain their involvement as DE's. Now if Snape is/was a spy, he could not tell Lucius that he was a spy, so the two of them may have concocted the story that they were both under the imperious curse. We know that was Lucius' excuse, but we never hear about Snape (that I can think of). Okay, so the Potters are dead, Voldemort is as good as gone for the moment, what will they do? I can imagine them debating a number of possibilities and finally deciding on the imperious excuse with each one vouching for the other. I was thinking that this scenario could help explain that huge gap in time between the time Voldemort kills Harry's parents and the time Hagrid brings Harry to the Dursley's. We don't really know where Dumbledore was at this time either. Is it possible that he was with Snape? With Snape filling him in on what happened? I think it's quite clear that Dumbledore has faith in Snape, but doesn't think much of Lucius Malfoy. It may be after Snape fills Dumbledore in that DD sends Hagrid to fetch Harry and take him to the Dursley's. Snape couldn't take Harry before because he had to keep up the DE front before Lucius. This doesn't explain how he could leave a one year old alone for several hours, unless he somehow sneaked in a protection charm. Maybe he did after Lucius took off for home. Anyway, it seems like it was quite a while before anyone knew what had happened. Serius doesn't arrive for quite a while either, and sees Hagrid there. The scenario does tie up some loose ends even if it doesn't explain how Harry was left alone, possibly unprotected for so long. I think it helps explain why DD trusts Snape so much. It also explains the time gap between the killing of the Potters and the delivery of Harry. In addition, it helps explain why Hagrid seems to know something about Snape that he won't tell Harry (that Snape was at the Potters' house when they died). When Harry goes to visit Hagrid early on in PS/SS, he tries to tell Hagrid that Snape hates him. Hagrid won't listen. He says, "Rubbish...why should he?" And then Harry "...couldn't help thinking that Hagrid didn't quite meet his eyes when he said that." The chapter (8) ends with this sentence: "And did Hagrid know something about Snape that he didn't want to tell Harry?" This scenario also helps explain why Snape is so nice to Draco. As far as Lucius knows, Snape is still really a supporter of Voldemort. Snape can't very well let on now. Lucius has been cleared and is quite powerful. It wouldn't do for Snape to try to say anything against him. Snape also knows that Lucius is still a supporter of the "dark side," whether LV is around or not. It is much more to his advantage to keep quiet. Dumbledore nows the truth. Finally, the scenario helps explain the end of GoF. Since Lucius thinks that Snape is still a secret supporter of Voldemort, Snape could go back to Voldemort. It is in Lucius' interest to back him up because he had made a pact with Snape to pretend they were under the imperious curse. What would he dare say against Snape? Even so, re-entering Voldemort's service would be dangerous. Okay, I don't have all the bugs worked out of this theory. For instance, if everyone knows Snape was a spy, then how does he go back? All I can say for that is that he would have to hope that Lucius would back him up and say that Snape was just making people think he was a spy for DD so that he could spy on DD. I think Voldemort was afraid of DD and that could be a reasonable excuse, especially since virtually all the DE's renounced Voldemort at one point or another. Anyone see more bugs in the theory? Any way of working them out? Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From kkearney at students.miami.edu Sun Nov 24 05:10:39 2002 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 05:10:39 -0000 Subject: expulsion (was Snape and the Prank) In-Reply-To: <027701c292c9$acaa02e0$a0510043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47055 I would just like to add a quick (well, not so quick) note about expulsion. I don't particularly understand why people seek an reason for Sirius not to be expelled for the Prank other than the fact that his actions did not merit such a punishment. Did Sirius do something that deserved punishment? Certainly. I personally hold the opinion that Sirius was simply being a thoughtless 16 year old boy when he pulled the Prank. However, even if he actually had malign intentions (wanted Snape to be injured or even killed), the fact is he was unsuccessful. Expulsion is an extremely harsh punishment. In schools today, it takes quite a bit to be expelled (ridiculous instances of 6-year olds being expelled for making obviously unreal threats notwithstanding). Now consider the magic world. Hogwarts isn't just the best school in England. It's the only one. Yes, I know some people don't think this, but to this point we have absolutely no evidence to the contrary. I would assume that if there were other schools, Hagrid would have transferred to one of these once he was expelled. So getting expelled basically means the end of one's wizarding future. Sure, you can remain in the Wizarding World and hold a "minimum wage" sort of job, but you will never be a true witch or wizard and practice magic. So being expelled from Hogwarts is a much more serious punishment than being expelled from an ordinary muggle school. In fact, the only person we've ever heard of getting expelled is Hagrid. Yes, Snape threatens it constantly, and various students taunt each other with it. But the only actual crime we know of that has prompted expulsion has been murder. And even if it was proved that Sirius wanted Snape injured, or even killed (the latter I find hard to believe), he didn't force Snape to pass the Whomping Willow. What we have is a 16-year old boy who indirectly put a fellow student at risk, possibly without truly meaning to do so. Hardly enough to expel someone. -Corinth, who just finished a thesis (seems to be a trend here, huh?), and finally can think about pointless things again From CoolPetey7 at aol.com Sun Nov 24 04:08:44 2002 From: CoolPetey7 at aol.com (petenkalpaka) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 04:08:44 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's four words Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47056 We all know JK hides things in the stories. I was thinking and maybe "Nitwit, Blubber, Oddment, Tweak" could mean something. Any ideas? -Peter From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Sun Nov 24 03:57:42 2002 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (dangermousehq at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:57:42 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape IS a vampire References: <20021123162722.61595.qmail@web41205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47057 firstly: --- jomamaumd wrote: > Snape IS a vampire - there's no doubt about it!! ---Ms Lizard Gizzard replied:--- So how does he attend daytime quidditch matches? Though I don't subscribe to the idea of Snapey being a vampire, maybe he wore sunscreen? -DM From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Sun Nov 24 04:09:17 2002 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (dangermousehq at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:09:17 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Peeves Not A Real Ghost? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47058 Karen wrote: "My dear Friar, haven't we given Peeves all the chances he deserves? He gives us all a bad name and you know, he's not really even a ghost- I say, what are you all doing here?" "Sir Nicholas is the one speaking in this quote. What does he mean when he says Peeves isn't really a ghost? Was there something in the other three books that I forgot telling why is isn`t a real ghost? What does everyone think of this?" My take on this is that N.H.N. meant that Peeves was a poltergeist. Now, I believe that a poltergeist is, in some way, different from a ghost, at least in the Harry Potter Universe. Perhaps, in the HPU, a ghost is just a spirit that cannot get over something in their life, but is relatively harmless. Peeves, a poltergeist, plays tricks, destroys property, etc. Maybe people don't understand that ghosts (harmless) are different than poltergeists (harmful). I think that's what JK had in mind--Peeves is a misbehaving ghost. -DM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Sun Nov 24 04:18:24 2002 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (dangermousehq at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:18:24 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: on Neville Longbottom References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47059 Finwitch wrote: "Brave: Definately. He's facing his worst fear (Snape) regularly, not whining about it at all. Standing up to his friends is the sort of bravery that puts him apart from loyal-to-friends-Hufflepuff. During the third year, Neville admits to being the-password-leak is very much Gryffindor. As well as when he, reluctantly, raises his hand inthe fake-Moody's class. If those acts aren't brave, I don't know what could be, despite of not putting Neville's life in danger." I love Neville! He's just so sweeeeeeet! Something else to add to your list though: Dumbledore mentions that his parents were driven crazy after being tortured by Voldemort's Death Eaters--they're now at St. Mungo's, and cannot recognize him. That's got to give a healthy dose of courage and bravery, doesn't it? He's just so sweet, but there's a lot of pain he carries around. The fact that he can still deal with the abuse of his peers and teachers just shows that even more. -DM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Nov 24 09:46:46 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:46:46 -0000 Subject: Peeves, Poltergiests, Telekinesis, and even Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47060 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dangermousehq at h... wrote: > > ...BNS... Big Nasty Snip... > > I think that's what JK had in mind--Peeves is a misbehaving ghost. > > -DM > bboy_mn with strictly an opinion: I think you are slightly off the mark. From my read of the text, Peeves seems to have physical form. Not only can he interact with the physical world, but the physical world can interact with him, as in the incident where Remus shot a wad of chewing gum up Peeves's nose. Although, there are other hints of it as well. The change from the standard pychic poltergiest is that Peeves indeed does have human physical form. Most visual apperances of poltergiest are in the form of energy and light. As a side note: (again just an opinion) in the real world poltergiest usually manifest themselves in house where very psychically gifted adolescence are experiencing extreme stress and emotional turmoil. These pschically gift kids can also, manifest telekinesis, which means they can move objects with the power of their mind. That would make the two, poltergiest and telekinesis, seem the same, but poltergiest work on a larger scale and are usually more violent. An additional side note: (I specialize in these) I think Dumbledore keeps Peeves around because he fills the students lives with life experiences; with what will be fond memories once they have mellowed with age. When Peeves is around, life is never dull. I'm sure that there are no students that leave Hogwards who don't sit around having an ale and swapping Peeves stories with their friends and laughing their butts off. I think the same is true for Snape, although the Snape situation is more complex. You can not deny that having Snape for a teacher is a life experience you will never forget. Those same people drinking those same ales are all going to swap Snape stories as soon as they run out of Peeves stories. And they will laugh just as hard, although it will be a slightly uneasy laugh. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From catlady at wicca.net Sun Nov 24 10:31:39 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:31:39 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's four words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47061 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "petenkalpaka" wrote: > We all know JK hides things in the stories. I was thinking and > maybe "Nitwit, Blubber, Oddment, Tweak" could mean something. Any > ideas? I don't think it means anything except that Dumbledore has an eccentric sense of humor, but two other theories have been posted previously on this list. One is that those words are the passwords or incantations to one or more locked doors or special spells that Harry will need in a future episode. Another is that "Nitwit, Blubber, Oddment, and Tweak" were the nicknames of Dumbledore and his three best friends when they were student trouble-makers. Listies have run with that one, speculating that the four were Albus, his brother Aberforce, Arabella later Figg, and Alastor Moody (Catlady meows: "their clique's name could be The Four A's, or Aces") and which nickname was which person. From catlady at wicca.net Sun Nov 24 10:43:29 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:43:29 -0000 Subject: Slytherin, the Chamber and the Basilisk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47062 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "David" wrote: > What might such a spell be? We know that Slytherin was concerned > about the admittance to Hogwarts of muggleborns - but not on > grounds of magical inferiority or hostility, just of security in an > age of persecution. We *don't* know that Salazar didn't feel hostility/bigotry toward Muggleborns *as well as* viewing them as security risks. (Someone asked why Muggleborn wizards would be security risks, as they are also wizards and would be victims of anti-magic persecution. Surely the risk that worried Salazar was that they would let information (about the location of Hogwarts and so on) slip to their Muggle families, who might then pass it on to persecutors.) > A *magical* approach to this problem would be to try to bring > about some kind of reconciliation between wizards and muggles > by means of a spell. > (snip) > So what we could be looking for is a wizard who unites Slytherin > characteristics with those of other houses, particularly > Gryffindor, who can speak Parseltongue, who knows where the > Chamber of Secrets is, and also has a foot in the muggle camp. David! It's so *original*, I love it! It would *totally* distroy my impression of old Salazar as an evil Dark Wizard. How could all the people who were Sorted into Slytherin House, and all the other wizards, and especially Tom Marvolo Riddle, consistently have such a WRONG idea of Salazar Slytherin and what his "noble plan" was? From catlady at wicca.net Sun Nov 24 10:45:43 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:45:43 -0000 Subject: MostlyAboutSnape/SociopathyTMR/taste4cruelty/DeathEating/DeadDumble/thePrank Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47063 Judy Serenity wrote: << Snape lacks the qualities of a sociopath -- an ability to charm others, a lack of introspection, a desire for action, a lack of remorse for hurting others, poor impulse control, an inability to learn from one's mistakes. Now, Sirius on the other hand...." >> This is not about Snape or Sirius, but you've got me thinking about sociopathy... Post # 46398 by Anakin Bester said: "I just read a lot about psychopaths this summer, and the attitude discribed seemed to nail Voldemort on the head. (snip) generally, psychopaths do not have long term goals for themselves. They indulge in self gratifying behavior and keep it up so long as it's entertaining, then throw it aside when they get bored (This describes their treatment of people too ^^)" I need you smart people to educate me about sociopaths and psychopaths. Same thing? What Judy listed of the qualities of a sociopath sound to me like Tom Marvolo Riddle, such as "an ability to charm others" and "a lack of remorse for hurting others". I don't know whether the sudden change of goal shown in CoS (from cleansing Hogwarts of Mudbloods to catching Harry Potter) fits the sociopath list. ANYWAY, it seems to me that Tom Marvolo Riddle DOES have a long-term goal, or at least a long-term motivation: his feeling that he was terribly wronged by his Muggle father, resulting in his anger against his father and his hatred against all Muggles, resulting in his on-going desire for revenge on Muggles and everyone else. I've read somewhere that sociopaths don't have any feelings at all, therefore assume that no one else has any either, that everyone else is just faking it, and therefore they learn to fake it very well, but does that (if true) mean that sociopaths don't feel that sort of self-pitying rage and hatred? What about psychopaths? Eileen wrote: << It's my humble belief, after studying way too much 20th century history, that everyone has a taste for cruelty." >> I don't think that requires studying 20th century history. What about public hangings being a popular form of entertainment for centuries, bear-baiting, the Roman arena? What is the appeal of such sports as boxing and American football? On a lesser but constant note, what about school kids picking on other school kids? What about slapstick humor, which often involves physical damage and property loss as well as mere humiliation to its butt: back when I used to have time to read, I often laughed my head off while weeping "Oh, no! That poor guy!" at various scenes written by John Dickson Carr... I cynically suspect that all normal people have a taste for cruelty against those whom they view as their inferiors and even us squeamish weirdos have a taste for gloating over a certain amount of misfortune happening to people whom we dislike. OTOH, *my* Snapetheory has him so far from being a physical sadist that his conversion started from his visceral and emotional response of being squicked by torture (actually, by the resulting physical damage) and killing. (I am grateful to JUDY SERENITY for pointing out what [the dog] Sirius didn't say [in the nighttime] -- it gives me support for my view of Snape as being only verbally and emotionally cruel.) I imagine that Avery and Mr. Lestrange were also squicked. All three tried (and mostly succeeded) to tough their way through it, as it was part of the job. The Snape difference is that all three thought "why am I such a wuss?", but only Snape thought "what is this accomplishing? Is there a philosophical theory of Ethics whose distinctions of good and evil would lead to more useful accomplishments than the Dark Lord's lesson that there is no good and evil, only power and weakness?" Dicentra wrote: <<"As you can see, yew trees are themselves death eaters: feasters on the dead. But I doubt Voldemort and his cronies are exhuming graves to gnaw on moldy old bones. No, they've undoubtedly found a new way to eat death--cause it, then profit from it. >> I was ecstatically thrilled to see myself being quoted in re yew trees! Alas, that has inspired me to quote my own fanfic: "And then he will reward his loyal disciples with immortality! We're called Death Eaters because we eat death and spit it out!" JOdel: << And I agree with Pip that the test of Snape bringing him Dumbledore's head on a platter is one very strong possibility. (I remember posting something very like it on the AOL board (IIRC) a year or so ago.) And, what's more, I can see Dumbledore agreeing to it. Particularly if there is a chance of buying his side some major magical protective advantage by his willing sacrifice. (I can easily see Dumbledore choosing to trump Voldy's ace by playing the Obi-Wan card.) If this is the case, I think it is more likely to be in book five than in book six. But this is only one possibility, and Rowling may very well not choose to go there at all. >> Dumbledore's death, for a good purpose, involving Angst!Snape: http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/R_J_Anderson/ (I think it's in the third book) << But I DO think she wants to keep us guessing over Snape's real alliegances. I do NOT think that she is going to sit back and let us comfortably start taking him for granted as one of the good guys. >> I totally can not think of how she could show us Snape's emotional anguish over Dumbledore's death without revealing what side Snape is on. Also, everyone who thinks that Dumbledore's head on a platter is the proof of Snape's allegiance that Voldemort demands -- when this conversation began, the purpose of Snape being accepted back by Voldemort was so that Snape could spy on Voldemort for Dumbledore. What is accomplished by having Snape in place as a spy for a side that no longer has a leader? In J.K. Rowling's books, which are about Harry Potter (unlike R.J. Anderson's books, which are about Snape and Maudie), Dumbledore cannot die until Harry is ready to be the 'good' side's leader. So far, Harry is not up to running Spy Games. Jazmyn: << Seems to me that Lupin, not Snape, would have more reason to be mad at Sirius. Snape might have been killed, but as death effects the living more then the dead (who can no longer feel, except if they return as ghosts). >> I think JKR said in some interview that in some future book, we will learn why some people become ghosts. IF becoming a ghost has something to do with having a personality like Moaning Myrtle's, young Severus was a good candidate for it. << Lupin would have to live with the fact that he killed a fellow student for the rest of his life, >> Which might not have been very long, depending on what Wizarding Law specifies: 1) as penalty for a werewolf who kills a wizard, or 2) as penalty for a wizard (e.g. a friend of Snape's seeking vengeance) who kills a werewolf. << which would have been a horrible thing for Sirius to have inflicted upon Lupin. Surprised that Snape and Lupin didn't become friends over this when they realized they were both victims. >> Dear Severus, who is very stubborn in his misapprehensions, remained convinced that Lupin was one of the plotters, not a fellow victim. If Remus had had a chance to tell Severus: "Why would I plot to do something that would send me to Azkaban, or at least be expelled from school with my secret reported on the front page of the Daily Prophet?" Severus would have replied: "Don't ask me to fathom the way a werewolf's mind works." From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Nov 24 12:36:11 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:36:11 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Prank...some thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47064 Melpomene wrote: > NO! NO! NO! > I absolutely can NOT sit on my fingers and "listen" to this! > There is NO evidence ANYWHERE that Snape had done ANYTHING other than > snoop around and be disagreeable. Both Sirius (particularly immature > tattle-tale!Sirius) and Remus have had ample opportunity to tell > Harry and co. just what awful things Severus had tried to do--but no, > Not one word. Do you honestly think that if Severus had tried to slip > something into James' or Peter's pumpkin juice Harry wouldn't have > heard ALL about it from his loving Godfather? In PoA, Sirius was busy forming a relationship with Harry; offering young Harry a home and being *very* glad of being FREE. Not in the mood of telling Harry anything about his school-days, was he? Of course, then Remus transformed and Sirius was busy saving Ron, Hermione, Harry AND Snape by dragging Remus away (the little rat wasn't in danger as we saw). After that he didn't have the oppurtunity to discuss with Harry except via Owl-post. We don't know how much Sirius put in letters between the one including the permission slip and the one Harry writes in the beginning of book four. Yet, he must have told Harry /something/ that isn't shown, to save space as Goblet of Fire is much longer than the earlier books without all those letters, to avoid repetition and to keep some things secret. That, of course, makes it all free for speculation. We do know Sirius had sent Harry letters before Harry's scar begun to hurt (he kept them under the loose board and all)... > But WHAT were the Marauders doing? Releasing a "full grown werewolf" > and wandering around freely with it FOR FUN! (ha bloody ha) They had > a few "close calls" which they later "laughed about"! > And WHO is lying in the bed he made? > HARUMPH! Dumbledore didn't know that James, Sirius and Peter were animagi until the end of PoA. I seem to recall him admiring not the animagi, but that they were able to keep that fact a secret from him... That was one of the very few things that happened around Hogwarts Dumbledore didn't know of. Which would explain why he would consider more guilt on Snape - and quite possibly none on James, Sirius and Peter. James also happened to save Snape, thus earning a reward while Snape may have been punished for being out-of-bounds after hours, thus having caused lots of trouble. Sirius and Peter were probably in the Gryffindor Tower at the time -- and while Snape might have heard (from Peter?) that Sirius had /plotted/ the thing, purposefully letting it leak to Snape how to get past the Whomping Willow... Lupin called it a trick- which means that he also believes that Sirius plotted to get Snape there; Sirius did not deny this, true, but he didn't confirm it either. Considering how Sirius was /feeling/ guilty about letting James down having persuaded him to choose another Secret-Keeper and thus accusing himself of /killing/ them, and how *everyone* including Remus Lupin, believed he had killed Peter (who had tricked them all and was alive as a pet rat), it just might be that Sirius regretted having slipped a piece of information just as well - regretted enough to call it an attempt of slaying or a trick, or at least not correct it. And what comes to the Four Map-designers going around illegally-- no one got hurt; they were young and thus not exactly required to figure out the possible tragic consequences; Lupin /was/ more himself, and more happy- perhaps only those happy things kept him from becoming what many other werewolves had become- dangerous, irresponsible and bad even without full moon, but instead the kind person we know. The company of his friends was the sort of spontane kindness, an act of true loyalty and friendship... There IS so much goodness in it as well (and anyway, everyone was supposed to stay in Dormitory so it wasn't like there were people around, or shouldn't have been). I don't, in the contrary, see that kind of goodness in Snape's attempt to get his fellow students expelled/going after Lupin... It's not like there was some major evil lurking about he needed to solve... -- Finwitch From Audra1976 at aol.com Sun Nov 24 13:36:15 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:36:15 EST Subject: Sociopathic TMR (and Paranoid Snape?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47065 Judy Serenity wrote: << Snape lacks the qualities of a sociopath -- an ability to charm others, a lack of introspection, a desire for action, a lack of remorse for hurting others, poor impulse control, an inability to learn from one's mistakes. Now, Sirius on the other hand...." >> Catlady wrote: > I need you smart people to educate me about sociopaths and > psychopaths. Same thing? What Judy listed of the qualities of a > sociopath sound to me like Tom Marvolo Riddle, such as "an ability > to charm others" and "a lack of remorse for hurting others". I don't > know whether the sudden change of goal shown in CoS (from cleansing > Hogwarts of Mudbloods to catching Harry Potter) fits the sociopath > list. Me: I'm a psychologist, so I can give you all some information about it. The terms "psychopath" and "sociopath" are virtually interchangable, but we don't like to use them anymore because of the negative connotation. The diagnosis that is given now is called "Antisocial Personality Disorder." Studies show that APD is to some degree genetic, but enviroment plays a large part in its development. Absent parents, particularly absent fathers have a correlation with APD cases (this definitely describes Tom's situation). In early development, there is a specific period where a baby needs to develop a bond with their caregiver, and if that bond is not made it has a profound impact on that person's social development for the rest of his life. Boys have been shown to be even more sensitive in this area than girls, and it is no surprise that males far outnumber females with APD. The symptoms are: - repeated criminal activity - repeated use of deceitfulness for personal profit or pleasure - impulsivity or failure to plan ahead - irritability and aggressiveness - consistent attitude of irresponsibility - pervasive lack of remorse, as indifference to or rationalization of mistreating others There needs to be evidence that the person had conduct problems before the age of 15, or else it is considered Adult Antisocial Behavior, not APD. We definitely know Tom was exhibiting these behaviors at age 16, so I'm going to assume he was showing them before 15 as well. And it's alright if Tom doesn't always show failure to plan ahead. Not everyone who has APD conforms to all of these criteria, but always three or more of them. I would say Tom conforms to at least 5 of them, maybe all 6. Tom has shown some impulsivity, as in casting AK on Harry--he didn't stop to think about the consequences of Lily sacrificing herself. One could really get off on a tangent of all the psychological problems of the HP characters--Lucius Malfoy, the classic Narcissist; Neville's Avoidant Personality; Hermione's OCD; and let's not forget Myrtle: total Borderline Personality Disorder, even in death. If Snape has a personality disorder, it's not APD, it's PPD (Paranoid Personality Disorder). Paranoid Personalities exhibit 4 or more of the following 6 symptoms: ** pervasive suspicion, without sufficient basis, that others are exploiting, harming, or deceiving him ** preoccupation with unwarranted doubts about the loyalty or trustworthiness of friends or associates ** reluctance to confide in others because of unwarranted fear that the information will be used maliciously against him ** reading hidden demeaning or threatening meanings into benign remarks or events ** persistently bears grudges, i.e., is unforgiving of insults, injuries, or slights perceives attacks on his character or reputation that are not apparent to others and is quick to react angrily or to counterattack ** recurrent suspiciousness, without justification, regarding fidelity of spouse or sexual partner Well Snape is single, so that last one is not applicable, but Snape is suspicious, he doubts the trustworthiness of associates, he doesn't really confide in others, he sometimes reads into benign actions and views them as demeaning to him, and he *definitely* can bear a grudge and is quick to react angrily. Sounds like we have a diagnosis, but the key word in all those symptoms is *unwarranted*. I think it's up for debate whether Snape's paranoid behavior is warranted or not given his situation. As the bumper sticker says, "You're not 'paranoid' if they really ARE out to get you." Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 24 14:20:57 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:20:57 -0000 Subject: More on Sirius (Was:Re: Sociopathic TMR (and Paranoid Snape?)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47066 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Audra1976 at a... wrote: > The symptoms [of APD] are: > - repeated criminal activity > - repeated use of deceitfulness for personal profit or pleasure > - impulsivity or failure to plan ahead > - irritability and aggressiveness > - consistent attitude of irresponsibility > - pervasive lack of remorse, as indifference to or rationalization of > mistreating others > Not everyone who has APD conforms > to all of these criteria, but always three or more of them. Please note that this lets Sirius off the hook (not that I ever thought he was on it in the first place), as he only meets, at best, two of the criteria: impulsivity or failure to plan ahead, and irritability and aggressiveness. (And the latter is arguable anyway, as it may well be a post-traumatic symptom and not an inherent trait of his personality.) The only criminal activity we know of Sirius engaging in is becoming an illegal Animagus. He's not deceitful, he feels a strong sense of responsibility toward Harry, and his remorse over his role in the Potters' deaths is actually out of proportion to his actual blame. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 24 14:29:14 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:29:14 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Deathwish!Dumbledore, Spy!Snape, and Preoccupied!Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47067 Looking around the room, Melody got kind of tired waiting for Abigail to return. Feeling her legs fall asleep, she got up and stretched. "Has been a fun night so far," she thought to herself. "But where is Grey and Pip? They have to be here somewhere?" Melody scooped up her water glass and walked back into the main room and scanned the crowd. She found Grey talking intently with Pippin, but their conversation seemed a little too gruesome for Melody to interrupt at this hour. Turning her head back towards the bar, she was surprised to see half of Pip standing there. Seems Pip had draped the invisibility cloak over her shoulder to keep it clean from the floor. Abigail and her were deep in conversation, so Melody paused and smiled knowing Pip was ironing out all the wrinkles Melody had forgotten. Edging closer to listen, Melody overheard Pip say: > "You see, when I said that the route back in for Snape is providing > Dumbledore's head on a platter, I was only half joking. I don't > think Dumbledore is actually going to ask Snape to kill him. But I > do think he might well send Snape back to Voldemort (and this may be > Book 6 rather than Book 5 ? Snape's current mission might have > nothing to do with going back to Voldemort), with some really juicy > information about some weakness of Dumbledore's. For example, that > Dumbledore is really atrocious at fighting balrogs, and has never > mastered the levitation charm that protects you when you fall off > bridges. That idea actually seems workable in Melody's mind. Not that she wanted it to happen, but based on what Dumbledore has already done in pursuit to remove Voldemort from being a threat, it is a real possibility. Then another thought popped in Melody's head, and she just had to pass it by Pip. Striding forward, Melody came up to Abigail and Pip and tapped Pip on the shoulder. "Hey," she greeted. "Hi, Mel. Got bored sitting back there?" Pip asked picking up her tea pint again. "More got a little stiff, hey I could not help, well ok I could, but I overheard you saying how Snape and Dumbledore could be planning to plant information about Dumbledore in Voldemort's came. A very spy thing to do by the way." Melody said. "Yes I agree," Pip smiled. "So I was thinking about how Hagrid would take Dumbledore doing this. I really do not think Dumbledore would tell him about it. Hagrid would be a mess and *completely* useless. Dumbledore knows this, so what did he do? He set Hagrid off to find his long lost mother with the very woman Hagrid has a deep crush on. Seems Dumbledore wants to keep Hagrid's mind, heart, and hands busy. So with Hagrid preoccupied, Dumbledore can work with Snape to get Voldemort within a close radius of Dumbledore which could *never* happen otherwise." Pip thought a minute on the idea and added, "And Dumbledore also knows that Hagrid is *extremely* defense and protective of him. He even said he would trust Hagrid with his life, so if Dumbledore wants to possibly put his life in jeopardy, then he has to remove the Hagrid factor. Hmmm, interesting." Abigail was nursing her Pina Colada quietly listening. "But wouldn't Hagrid be back for his duties as teacher and groundskeeper by then?" "Ooo, good point," Melody said. "But if Hagrid has a girlfriend then his free time is quite busy. What with flying between France and England and all. Then there is the getting to know your mother better part. And Dumbledore could make sure Hagrid has an especially menacing new pet to keep him busy as well and happy. Hagrid would be completely clueless to the whole Snape and Dumbledore plan. So really, I think Dumbledore has already put into the works a 'Keep Hagrid away from the truth of my possible death' plan." Tipping her water glass to Pip, "I think you are on to something." Then another light went off in Melody's head (you would think the bar smoke would cloud your mind). "Hey, wait. Hagrid's death!" Pip's eyes got big. "Yeah, Dumbledore keeps all the spy games from Hagrid, so Hagrid would not know the plans and the need of Dumbledore's life in jeopardy. So *when* Hagrid finds out, he would immediately run to either stop Dumbledore and put his own life before Dumbledore's." Melody was positively bouncing. "So Hagrid dies a hero's death redeemed in the WW. An era ends. Harry is proud of his friend but mourns his loss. It is tragic for JKR and could be awful to write. Dumbledore lives another book, but still can die now without the protection of Hagrid getting in the way. It all could work." Melody From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Nov 24 13:54:00 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:54:00 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Prank...some thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47068 For one thing, we do /not/ know how much Sirius really had to do with the trick. It is possible that ALL he did was leak information on how to get past the Whomping Willow - by accident, confusion etc. And I do agree that the event was what made Sirius to at least think he was NOT a good Secret-Keeper, having been the very cause of Snape learning of Lupin's secret. That event was what he used to convince James, I guess. Because he WOULD die rather than betray his friends. He'd be so *very* worried about being *tricked* to reveal it so important a secret that he just can't take the responsibility. It is more responsible to admit right out your disability to keeping secrets than to accept the confidence, after all. Still, what if Sirius wasn't playing a trick, but /Peter/ was? Trick Sirius to leak the info to Snape by making him believe Snape knew, and then to Snape once that part played off, that Sirius and James had *plotted* the whole thing so that Snape gets killed, to Lupin that Sirius had wanted to protect his secret by attempting to make Snape a werewolf, only that James saved Snape too early... A trick /Peter/ played so well that NONE ever thought of HIM being the one. Peter wanted Snape dead so that he could be the number one Spy at Voldemort's service... That rat IS a tricky one, managing to fake his own death all too often. Sirius figured it all out, only too late to warn James in time... To warn him what a nasty rat they all had trusted in... -- Finwitch From judyshapiro at directvinternet.com Sun Nov 24 14:39:12 2002 From: judyshapiro at directvinternet.com (Judy) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:39:12 -0000 Subject: Sociopath!Voldemort, and a bit about Lupin and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47069 Rita the Catlady said: > educate me about sociopaths and psychopaths. Same thing? The short answer is yes, although which term a researcher uses sometimes reflects theoretical orientation. The term "Anti-social Personality" means the same thing, too. ("Anti-social" here means "harmful to society"; it has nothing to do with being unfriendly, since people with this type of personality can be quite charming.) Voldemort is a very extreme case of a sociopath / psychopath / anti-social personality. The definition fits him extremely well. Rita quoted Post # 46398 by Anakin Bester: >>>> generally, psychopaths do not have long term goals for themselves. They indulge in self gratifying behavior and keep it up so long as it's entertaining, then throw it aside when they get bored (This describes their treatment of people too <<<< Rita then said: > ANYWAY, it seems to me that Tom Marvolo Riddle DOES have a long-term > goal, or at least a long-term motivation: his feeling that he was > terribly wronged by his Muggle father, resulting in his anger against > his father and his hatred against all Muggles, resulting in his > on-going desire for revenge on Muggles and everyone else. I wouldn't say that sociopaths don't have long-term goals. They certainly get bored easily, they have little concern about future punishment, and they generally don't delay gratification. But none of this prevents a person from *having* long-term goals; it just makes it more difficult to *achieve* long-term goals. (This is in contrast to, say, frontal lobe damage, which can destroy a person's ability to conceive of the future.) Voldemort has long-term goals of revenge, immortality and power, but does things that reduce his chances of achieving these goals. Perhaps an inability to delay gratification is why Voldemort tortured Harry in the Graveyard, when it would have been safer to just kill him outright? Rita also said: > I've read > somewhere that sociopaths don't have any feelings at all, therefore > assume that no one else has any either, that everyone else is just > faking it, and therefore they learn to fake it very well, but does > that (if true) mean that sociopaths don't feel that sort of > self-pitying rage and hatred? There is no way to compare emotions between people, since emotions are purely internal experiences. Therefore, there is no way to be certain of what sociopaths actually *feel*. My guess is that they lack many, but not all, emotions. When sociopaths are about to experience pain (say, dental work) they lack the normal physiological fear response that other people have, which probably means they have little sense of fear. Judging by their external behaviors, they also seem to lack empathy, remorse, and the capacity to love. They often anger easily, though. My guess is that humans have several different emotional systems; sociopaths lack (at least partially) the ones dealing with fear, love, and empathy, but not the one(s) involving anger. Of course, Voldemort isn't a real person, so there's no guarantee that his personality works the way a real person's would. However, the emotions he has are ones sociopaths often have; the ones he lacks are ones that real sociopaths lack. I think that JKR came up with a believable personality for him. On the urgent question of whether Snape will buy his way back into the Death Eater circle by presenting Dumbledore's head on a platter, Rita said: > when this conversation began, the purpose of Snape being accepted > back by Voldemort was so that Snape could spy on Voldemort for > Dumbledore. What is accomplished by having Snape in place as a spy > for a side that no longer has a leader? I agree completely. Killing off Dumbledore just so Snape could spy would be a lousy trade. If Dumbledore dies so soon, the "Light Side" is doomed. So, I'd say that presenting "Dumbledore's head on platter" [someone please generate an acronym for this!] is possible, but not until Book 6, or more likely, Book 7. Rita also made three other points that I whole-heartedly agree with: 1) Lupin might have been executed (or murdered) if he had killed Snape 2) If unhappy people become ghosts, Snape would be a prime candidate for ghosthood - and - 3)If asked why Lupin would deliberately get himself in trouble by attacking a fellow student, Snape no doubt would have replied "Don't ask me to fathom the way a werewolf's mind works." -- Judy Serenity, who is working on a reply to Eileen From judyshapiro at directvinternet.com Sun Nov 24 16:10:44 2002 From: judyshapiro at directvinternet.com (Judy) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:10:44 -0000 Subject: Diagnoses for Voldemort, Snape, Sirius? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47070 Audra said: > Studies show that APD [Antisocial Personality Disorder] > is to some degree genetic, but enviroment plays > a large part in its development. > Absent parents, particularly absent fathers have a > correlation with APD cases > (this definitely describes Tom's situation). I tend to see sociopathy ["APD" if you prefer, but the negative connotations will attach themselves to whatever term is used] as genetic. A correlation with absentee fathers does *not* prove that environment is the cause. Fathers with APD would be less likely to stay with their children, and their children could inherit their genes for APD, thus genetics could produce the correlation between absent fathers and children with APD. We don't know that the older Riddles were antisocial personalities, but certainly being "snobbish and rude" could indicate a lack of empathy. Voldemort could have inherited his personality from them. His anger, however, could have come from how he was treated in the orphanage. Audra listed the DSM criteria for APD, causing Marina to adjust her brand-new Sirius Apologist robes and say: << Please note that this lets Sirius off the hook (not that I ever thought he was on it in the first place), as he only meets, at best, two of the criteria: impulsivity or failure to plan ahead, and irritability and aggressiveness.... The only criminal activity we know of Sirius engaging in is becoming an illegal Animagus. He's not deceitful, he feels a strong sense of responsibility toward Harry, and his remorse over his role in the Potters' deaths is actually out of proportion to his actual blame.>> I've previously argued that Sirius' fatherly concern for Harry in GoF is simply inconsistent with his impulsive and violent behavior in PoA. Even including his GoF behavior, however, I'd say that he is fairly high in sociopathy. However, my view of sociopathy is different from Audra's. First of all, I would say that sociopathy is a continuum, and that only the people at the extreme high end are actually abnormal. I wouldn't say that Sirius is high enough in sociopathy for it to constitute a disorder or abnormality, but I would say it is a prominent part of his personality. Secondly, I'd point out that DSM criteria (including those listed here by Audra) are used to identify people who pose problems to themselves or others, and therefore (over)emphasize traits that are harmful. The DSM definition for APD leaves out positive traits associated with sociopathy, such as being charming, as well as fairly neutral ones such as lack of introspection. Although I argued (a few posts back) that all "gleeful sadists" are sociopaths, that certainly doesn't mean that all sociopaths are gleeful sadists. One can have the constellation of impulsiveness, fearlessness, etc. without being evil or sadistic. So, I still say Sirius is sociopathic, but that doesn't mean I think he's evil. Audra also said: > If Snape has a personality disorder, > it's not APD, it's PPD (Paranoid Personality Disorder).... > I think it's up for debate whether Snape's > paranoid behavior is warranted or not given his situation. > As the bumper sticker says, "You're not 'paranoid' if they > really ARE out to get you." This brings up another point that I wanted to make. Eileen said that Snape isn't paranoid enough to think that Dumbledore wanted him dead. I don't think this belief would require paranoia. The Prank occured during Voldewar I, a war that was largely between Slytherin House and Gryffindor House. Given this context, it's no surprise that Snape thought the Prank was an attempt to murder him. He showed unusual skill as a Dark Wizard even when young ("knew more curses as a 1st year than half the 7th year students"), so he would be a prime candidate for elimination by the opposing side. If Dumbledore, leader of the Gryffindor side, was lenient with Sirius (as seems to be the case), it makes sense that Snape perceived him as condoning the Marauders' "murder attempt." This is what I meant when I said that Snape thought that even Dumbledore wanted him dead. So, I don't think Snape was (or is) paranoid. The war with Voldemort made people suspicious of each other; this was one of Voldemort's specialities, as Dumbledore says at the end of GoF. (I suspect Snape's clinically depressed, however.) I see Neville and Hermione as basically normal. I'm not a fan of labeling everyone with a diagnosis; by definition, most people are normal. -- Judy Serenity From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 24 16:40:48 2002 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:40:48 -0000 Subject: TBAY: MD's third strain QB(a side venture from Spy!Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47071 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bluesqueak" wrote: > > > Melody is explaining to Alla that DISHWASHER is disprovable: > "If, in fact, we find out in future books that Dumbledore has not > been scheming and planning and it is proven that he in fact has not > helped bring about the rebodiment of Voldemort, then MD is disproven > and there would be a big party thrown by Marina at the tavern I > assure you." > > "I see your point." says Alla. "So DISHWASHER is disprovable?" > > > The Pipsqueak plays her voice recorder again. This time it's > Melody's voice which comes out: > "MD's hands are completely tied to the fact that Dumbledore is a > general of war and that he has made aggressive strategic plans to > "So the DISHWASHER is not the same thing as the Safe House?" says > Alla, obviously puzzled. > > "NO! The Safe House is a haven for spies, conspiracy theorists, and > fans of Agatha Christie. It's very much associated with the > DISHWASHER because DISHWASHER *is* based around the idea of an > intelligence war ? so DISHWASHER supporters usually have a room in > the Safe House. But residents can always wash their own dishes if > they like ? you don't have to use any magical kitchen appliances at > all to move into the Safe House." > > The Pipsqueak suddenly realises that she may have been a little > vehement. Alla is shrinking back into her chair, trying to make > herself look as small and harmless as possible. HA! First of all thanks for answering my question. I appreciate it. I do understand the difference betwen Safe House and MAGIC DISHWASHER I have nothing against SAFE HOUSE, MD on the other hand is totally different story. SO, even if it turns out that Dumbledore made many aggressive strategic plans in case Voldemort resurrects, but did nothing to help, MD is disproven. That is good, because this would be the turn of events I would love to happen > > She sips the tea. "Personally, I feel that the only correct answer > to `do the ends justify the means' is to ask yourself `which ends, > which means' and then proceed on a case by case basis. End: Ridding > the world of a very powerful, evil and immortal megalomaniac. Means: > letting him become temporarily *more* powerful because that will > ultimately make him more vulnerable. Alternative: Do nothing, allow > Voldemort to continue murdering Albanian peasants and stray DADA > teachers, hope Voldemort doesn't find his own re-embodiment > solution. Leave the entire problem to the next generation. Yup, the > alternative sounds really moral to me." > > "That is not what I am actually talking about!" says Abigail in > exasperation. "why it's best to resurrect Voldemort now rather then > wait in the hopes that he is never resurrected - I know that > argument and it makes sense to me, but it's hardly germane to this > discussion. The point for me is that Dumbledore set events in motion > that brought about people's deaths." The fact that he isn't > responsible for those deaths doesn't exonerate him from complicity > in them. Or at least it shouldn't. And here I *am* going to make a > moral determination. A Dumbledore who could look at the deaths of > Bertha Jorkins, and Frank Bryce, and Cedric Diggory, and the many > deaths that are coming and say 'I had no hand in that' *is* immoral, > and I want nothing to do with him." ME: I am with Abigail on this one. I think that MD Dumbledore has already crossed the line, which in my opinion Dumbledore would not cross. > The Pipsqueak glares. "And my point is that the alternative he had > was to leave a sequence of events in motion that would still have > resulted in people's deaths. Voldemort is a killer. Voldemort has no > need whatsoever to kill Cedric. He could have had Pettigrew use > Snape's rope trick, tied Cedric up, and had him completely unable to > help Harry in any way. But he just orders `the spare' killed. ME:I don't think that this is the only alternative Dumbledore has. Nobody expects him to sit around and just wait and see whether Voldemort will resurrect or not. He can make any plans and preparations in case resurrection will happen. He can and should take this possibility into account, but not FORCE Voldemort to come back if there is even a tiny possibility that he would not be able to do it. Of course, I think that Dumbledore did not cross that line and it does not make him less capable leader of WW. Alla, who hopes to learn how to write TBAY post one day, but for now just flattered to be mentioned in one. From ashfae at technicaldetails.org Sun Nov 24 17:14:58 2002 From: ashfae at technicaldetails.org (Ashfae) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:14:58 -0700 (MST) Subject: Slytherin, the Chamber and the Basilisk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47072 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "David" wrote: > > What might such a spell be? We know that Slytherin was concerned > > about the admittance to Hogwarts of muggleborns - but not on > > grounds of magical inferiority or hostility, just of security in an > > age of persecution. Call me crazy, but someone who locks a giant evil snake in a basement of the castle solely so that someone else can later use it to drive away Muggleborns strikes me as having a few hostile tendencies. If Salazar's intention was just to get rid of the Muggleborns, there must be more efficient (not to mention easier) ways of doing it than "Death By Serpent;" use of the basilisk strikes me as particularly vicious and bloodyminded. Ashfae From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun Nov 24 17:35:26 2002 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:35:26 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Potters In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021123212330.0127dbc8@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47073 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > being killed. I started to wonder if Harry's dream is actually something > of a memory. Carol, I've thought this for quite a while for more than one reason. The first being the fairly well accepted idea that it was Snape who tipped DD to the plot to go after the Potters in the 1st place. The 2nd was in PoA during the Patronus lesson when Harry hears the voices of his parents...or what he ASSUMES to be the voices of his parents. Lupin's reaction is very odd to me here when Harry tells him he heard his father telling yelling a warning to Lilly (sorry, don't have the book--it's apparated into son's bedroom and I'm NOT going in there! Talk about chamber of secrets!) Anyway, I got the distinct impression from Lupin's reaction that Harry could not POSSIBLY been hearing Jame's voice. I don't know why, possibly because he had been killed earlier? Somewhere else? And Lupin knew it. As for the 3rd--My suspicion here was pretty firmly cemented when TMTSNBN was being hyped as having a scene specifically written by JKR herself and that she was ADAMANT about how it should be filmed and that she was PARTICULARLY adamant that JAMES NOT BE SHOWN! Now, I don't know if the voice Harry heard was actually Snape trying to give a final, desperate and doomed warning or if it was, in fact, James but I am CONVINCED Snape was at Godric's Hollow that night in Some Capacity. I am also sure he's connected to the "missing" 24 hours. You have some good ideas there. Snape was in mortal danger from any DE's who might have also been at the scene and witnessed this betrayal. A performance like that would CERTAINLY be enough to cement DD's trust in Severus Snape AND explain why in GoF he would be reluctant to tell Harry the reasons for that trust. Melpomene From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Sun Nov 24 18:14:38 2002 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:14:38 -0000 Subject: Another look at the prank... In-Reply-To: <152.17cf6a1c.2b100b64@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47074 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., wynnde1 at a... wrote: > Well, SophineClaire has spun a lovely story to explain the punishments" dealt > out by Dumbledore: Hey Thanks! >> While this is tidy and not contradicted by canon as far as I can see, I still > have one question: > > Why didn't Sirius get EXPELLED????? > > Just as Draco's dad had some pull with the Govenor's and has connections in the Ministry, I'd say the same could be true with Sirius family. Some people throw around the idea that it was to protect Lupin from being exposed, but wouldn't they just make something else up and still keep Lupin's secret. I mean, Sirius probably had a file 3 inches thick in Filch's office. It wouldn't be that hard to dig up some sort of infraction. On top of that, purebloods are obviously a bit more popular than half-giants, so it would be easier to make certain allowances .. Severus a "hypothetical victim?" Are you kidding? How can you possible > compare sneaking around the school and spying with setting up a situation > where a fellow student could lose his life????? My word, we've seen enough of > Harry, Ron and Hermione sneaking around the school and spying, and no one > seems to think anything of it. But when it's Snape, then obviously he's evil > and deserved to die? > In my opinion Lupin is the real victim; Nothing to gain, everything to lose and the only innocent party. Next comes Snape, and I say he is hypothetical because he really should've known better (unless*), but it is no excuse for Sirius do have did what he did, knowing Snape's habit of sneaking around and wanting to see things for himself and all. At best, Snape would've had his questions answered and at worse, he would be dead. Next is James, he could've been killed also but chose to save Snape instead (We Snape fans should THANK James Potter really .). But he also chose to be involved, so if he died, it would Sirius' fault but James' own doing. He's less a victim and more of a hero really. Then Sirius if you want to accept the Imperious! Sirius idea and want a reason to get the poor pup off the hook. * If Snape is suppose to have an interest in the Dark Arts, one can assume that he knew the dangers of confronting a Werewolf. Was it teenage bravado or cruel intentions or pure nosiness that drove Snape to be curious about Lupin's actions. Did Snape have a close relative/friend attack and killed during his pre-Hogwart years and feared the creatures since then? Or was he already abreast on the developments on a cure for Lycanthropy and wanted to help said relative/friend. Instead of experimenting any prototypes on someone he cares for, maybe that pathetic Lupin boy is desperate enough to want to live a normal life to willingly agree to be a test subject ( Of course, the potions won't be strong enough to keep him human when he should be a wolf. Even Snape appreciates the importance of baby steps and at most the potions would knock Lupin out)* ] Good points! SophineClaire _ I think I'll save JKR the troub;e and write the 8th book myself... From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 24 18:30:47 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:30:47 -0000 Subject: Diagnoses for Voldemort, Snape, Sirius? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47075 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Judy" wrote: > We don't know that the older Riddles were antisocial personalities, > but certainly being "snobbish and rude" could indicate a lack of > empathy. Voldemort could have inherited his personality from them. We do know that the older Riddles cast Tom's pregnant mother out of the family when they discovered she was a witch, with no concert for what would happen to her or her baby. Sounds like a distinct lack of empathy to me. > Audra listed the DSM criteria for APD, causing Marina to adjust her > brand-new Sirius Apologist robes and say: > << Please note that this lets Sirius off the hook (not that I ever > thought he was on it in the first place), as he only meets, at best, > two of the criteria: impulsivity or failure to plan ahead, and > irritability and aggressiveness.... > I've previously argued that Sirius' fatherly concern for Harry in GoF > is simply inconsistent with his impulsive and violent behavior in PoA. I don't think they're inconsistent. Sirius was concerned for Harry in PoA, too -- it's that concern that motivated his escape to begin with -- but he was also in an extremely unstable frame of mind. He hadn't had time to recover from Azkaban, he was hanging around Hogwarts, which was full of Dementors out for his blood, and he was convinced that Harry was unknowingly in mortal danger from Wormtail. Between PoA and GoF, and during GoF,he had time to rest and recover on some (presumably Dementor-free) tropical island; the knowledsge that he'd demonstrated his innocence to the people who really mattered must've been a big load off his mind; and he'd had a chance to get to know Harry as a person, which would've changed his concern from the abstract "I must take care of James and Lily's son, because I promised" to the specific "I must take care of Harry because he's a kid I care about." I think all these factors are more than enough to explain his change of behavior beween books. > Secondly, I'd point out that DSM criteria (including those listed here > by Audra) are used to identify people who pose problems to themselves > or others, and therefore (over)emphasize traits that are harmful. The > DSM definition for APD leaves out positive traits associated with > sociopathy, such as being charming, as well as fairly neutral ones > such as lack of introspection. Well, far be it from me to deny that Sirius is charming. :-) Nor will I attempt to present him as the introspective type. But (and hopefully more knowledgeable people will correct me if I'm full of it), I think that the reason these traits get left out of the diagnostic criteria is not that they aren't harmful, but that they aren't reliably indicative. Yes, a lot of sociopathic people are charming and non-introspective, but so are a lot of non-sociopathic people, so you can't really draw conclusions based on that. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From pennylin at swbell.net Sun Nov 24 19:30:14 2002 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:30:14 -0600 Subject: Sociopathic Sirius? (and Paranoid Snape?) References: Message-ID: <001801c293ef$e9c8e840$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 47076 Hi all -- Audra helpfully listed out the common symptoms of a socio-path, and Marina happily pointed out that Sirius would not qualify as a socio-path under that definition (a point I was about to gleefully make myself before she beat me to the punch). Then, Judy noted that Sirius is charming and lacking in introspection, 2 other indicators of possible sociopathy. Aside from agreeing with Marina's point that these factors would seem to not be terribly indicative of sociopathy since they can apply to such a large range of people, I'd also point out that we have absolutely zero proof that any of the characters are or are not introspective. The books are written from Harry's POV, and while I think I would say that Harry is a very introspective person, I find it hard to make that argument about any of the other characters given the POV issues. Judy Serenity originally wrote: << Snape lacks the qualities of a sociopath -- an ability to charm others, a lack of introspection, a desire for action, a lack of remorse for hurting others, poor impulse control, an inability to learn from one's mistakes. Now, Sirius on the other hand...." >> I would argue that Snape actually very definitely lacks remorse for hurting others -- or at least he certainly doesn't allow any remorse he might be feeling to stop him from abusing his position of power and knowingly hurting quite a number of the students under his purported tutelage. Yeah, I have some strong feelings about Snape's use of his teacher role, Snape-fans. :--) Judy again: <<<>>> Again, I agree completely with Marina's arguments -- I've never seen his behavior as inconsistent. For one thing, it's obvious to me in reading the Shrieking Shack scene and the post-Lupin-changeover bits as crystal clear that Sirius cares quite deeply about Harry as a person. He's observed him every chance he could grab, and IMO, he's come to love and care about Harry as a person, not just the boy who happens to be his best friend's son. One of my (many!) favorite lines in the entire series is: "You are truly your father's son, Harry." I can explain his PoA behavior quite clearly with the PTSD argument, but I know you don't buy that, Judy, so I won't bother with the details. Snape & Paranoia: <<<>>>>>> Curious: where do you get the perception that Voldemort I was confined to Hogwarts and to a Gryffindor/Slytherin rivalry in particular? My perception has always been that Voldy I was a terrible time for the entire wizarding world, and included many muggle murders as well. <<<<<<>>>> He sure looks paranoid from where I'm sitting. Then again, I don't *like* Snape. I find him fascinating, I'm anxious to hear his back-story, I'm sure he'll die a heroic death and probably many of us will care about him at some point.... yada, yada, yada. He does absolutely nothing for me at the moment though. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Sun Nov 24 20:14:10 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:14:10 -0600 Subject: TBAY: Amanda Binns Explains It All (was loads of Snape stuff) References: Message-ID: <000601c293f6$0dc13940$5604a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 47077 Amandageist drifted down from the ceiling and made a quick pass of the room, swooping through everyone and giving them the cold chills. She cleared her throat with a small sound like chalk snapping. "I," she announced, "have had a Thought. More accurately, I had a blinding insight where several people's thoughts came together. I was browsing over on the main list, since nobody seems to want to talk to me here, and I read something that Jodel said: << And I agree with Pip that the test of Snape bringing him Dumbledore's head on a platter is one very strong possibility. (I remember posting something very like it on the AOL board (IIRC) a year or so ago.) And, what's more, I can see Dumbledore agreeing to it. Particularly if there is a chance of buying his side some major magical protective advantage by his willing sacrifice. >> "You may all know," the Geist continued, "that in another plane of existence I am married to my own dead-sexy version of a Inscrutable Dark-Haired Man. Some months ago he had his own original thought, which I reproduce for you here." She waved a hand and a large, floating screen appeared. It had several holes burned in it. "Ah, yes," Amandageist said. "Sorry about that. Sometimes my irritation with those blinking and pop-up ads overcomes me...and the quote is rather long, sorry." Several people, having some experience with the Geist's lectures, began edging to the exits. She regally ignored them. Words took shape on the screen: Message 39315, Love as a Spell Component: My beloved, Jan, is a long ponderer and came to me today with a Harry Potter thought (as he calls them). He has braided several threads together and presented me with several novel takes on things, which I will now proceed to share. There has been general dissatisfaction with the idea that Lily's dying for Harry was what saved him from Voldemort. Plenty of people must have flung themselves in front of others in Voldemort's long career as a Bad Wizard; why should this one time be special or different? We are told the Potters knew Voldemort was after them. Jan suggests that the Potters did more than hide. He suggested that Dumbledore worked with Lily, who was very good at charms, far in advance to set a spell on Harry that would be activated in a worst-case scenario when there was no other way to protect him. A shield or protection that required Lily to do what she did, integrating her love into the rest of the spell and completing it. I mentioned the thread of Stoned!Harry and all the alchemical symbolism to him, and he said this fits, as Lily's love was transmuted into a protection. The achievement of the Stone is via transmutation, and the process of achieving it is intended not to get a Stone, but to transmute the alchemist himself to a higher state of being. It is a process of self-perfection, not a way to obtain gold or live forever, which is presumably why all the many would-be's who tried it for the latter goals all failed. But I digress. This thought of Jan's nicely reduced the aggravation factor of Lily's Sacrifice, as it added the extra edge I thought must be required. I mentioned to Jan that the (accurate) distinction had been made that Lily's love was not, after all, identified as what kept off Voldemort, but as what kept off *Quirrell.* Nor have I understood why Voldemort's spell *rebounded,* rather than just not working. Jan's theory also adds reason for Lily to refuse to move aside; in addition to mother love, she was willingly providing the key element to the last-line and strongest parts of Harry's protection. We already know Dumbledore has set up other parts (the ancient magic that protects him at the Dursleys, and probably more). Dumbledore is a very powerful wizard, and was very involved with the Potters, which is why we figured he helped Lily work this out. Okay. That was good. I was happy. But Jan continued. Flamel. Flamel was to set his affairs in order and then he would die. Ah, but here we are talking about the achiever of the Stone, the one who has achieved the higher state of being. Here is one who is also dying willingly for a noble cause. Has his love or purity of purpose, I wonder, been transmuted into any other type of protective spell? A very good thought by Jan. And now here comes Cindy with this ludicrous disloyalty idea about Snape. But the reason she gives--that Dumbledore has to die, and being betrayed is the only way--hmmm. Dumbledore has to die, eh? Yeah, I agree, he probably will. But if Jan is right, and there is a charm or spell that can transmute a willing and loving death into a powerful protection, I can see another way Dumbledore could exit. A very likely way. ---------------------------- "Okay," the Geist continued, making another chilly pass through everyone to wake them up, "here's two parts, then: "1. A willing death can be a part of an extremely powerful spell. "2. We already thought Dumbledore was likely to die, simply for character-development reasons; Jan offers a reason--for the furtherance of defenses, achievable in no other way. "Oh, hush," she said, hearing the mutinous, impatient murmurs. "Of *course* this has to do with Snape. But Snape as he is an very involved thread in the whole series. *Do* keep your pants on. Or thongs. Whatever....Read this." The floating scroll cleared, and new words formed: Message 41341, A New Thought! A New Thought! Several!: Jan has again done the impossible, thought of something I have not seen discussed on the list. I'm impressed. He thinks that part of the closeness between Snape and Dumbledore is that Dumbledore himself is skilled with potions. I asked him where he got that. He referred me back to the description on the wizard card: "Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945, for the discovery of the twelve uses of dragon's blood and his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicolas Flamel." (p. 77, PS) Jan points out that those last two, researching the uses of dragon's blood and alchemy, both would seem to have a very strong potions element. He says that any Potions master under Dumbledore would have to be very good, indeed, because two of the things Dumbledore is famous for are potions-related. I think he has, as usual, made a great observation. So, thoughts? Alchemy does involve great amounts of intricate mixing and blending and simmering, and not a lot of foolish wand-waving (to our knowledge). I'm betting that analysis of dragon's blood did, too. Do we think Dumbledore is no slouch when it comes to potions, and they share a professional interest? And has this interesting thought sparked any other random connections in anyone? Jan also mentions that the card obliquely introduces another angle: professors do another thing besides teach. They do research. He thinks Snape may be a research professor, perhaps working on something with Dumbledore. This ties a bit into his "love as a spell component" theory I put out earlier. Snape's teaching style is not the best, we pretty much all agree on that--but what if teaching is not the primary reason he is at Hogwarts at all? What if he's working on some project? And my related thought--what if Lily's sacrifice, as a component of Harry's protection, was a product of such research by Snape? Jan's thought was that Harry's protection, the reason he survived, was not simply that Lily died for him, but that her willing sacrifice was the final element of a spell that created the strong protection. What if Snape, having access to the wizard likely to throw that spell, and access to Dumbledore, was instrumental in crafting that spell? The other willing death we have seen, or that was strongly intimated, is Flamel's himself. And what if a willing sacrifice *can* be incorporated into a strong protective spell, and what if Dumbledore and Snape *are* working on that.....? And what if Snape's task is to seem to betray Dumbledore, whose own willing death will be a component in Voldemort's defeat? ------------------------------ Amandageist gazed out over the sea of glazed eyes. "OKAY," she said loudly, as the screen blanked and then showed a variety of Graphic Visual Aids, "Here we have all we need to support the 'Dumbledore's Head On a Platter' theory, because it gels with all the following: "(1) Snape returned to Voldemort (likely). "(2) Voldemort set him a task to prove himself (likely). "(3) The task will be something that will be hard for Snape (or it wouldn't be proof) and good for Voldemort (probably). Ergo, Snape won't be sent after Sirius Black or Karkaroff. Killing? Hardly a challenge, in Voldemort's eyes. Killing an enemy? Candy. And neither Black nor Karkaroff are strategic targets for Voldemort. But killing Dumbledore? Proof *and* the removal of Voldemort's greatest obstacle. Likely. "(4) Snape, in canon, is a character whose every move and word is subject to varying interpretations. Valid motives, varying by 180 degrees, can be ascribed to him. Therefore, any task he must do *must* be something that is wildly misinterpretable. Most importantly, misinterpretable by Harry, such that Harry's belief leads him to do things which actually obstruct the ultimate objective (of which he is unaware), and such that a Bang that is heard across the planes will be heard when the truth is revealed. Look at this through the Harry-filter, which is how we will see it in the books: Harry has seen Dumbledore thwart Snape's desires many times. He has seen Dumbledore apparently enjoying a truly upset Snape. He has seen Snape smirk and give a very ambiguous response to Draco's suggestion that he should be headmaster. He "knows" that Snape wants the DADA position and that Dumbledore does not give it to him. This could easily, in Harry's mind, be assembled into a pattern of cause, motive, for Snape to finally turn on Dumbledore. For Harry already seriously doubts Dumbledore's wisdom in trusting Snape, now that he knows Snape was a Death Eater." Amandageist looked away from the diagrams and arrows on the screen, and noted the glint in the eyes of the BloodthirstyHappyToKill!Snapetheorists. She arched an eyebrow. She must clarify this at once. "Let me state for the record, that *my* take on Snape does not include him being homicidal for pleasure. I think he is entirely capable of killing, when there is a very good reason for it. But I don't think he will actually kill Dumbledore himself, unless it is some scenario that Dumbledore stages where Snape does so without meaning to (and we all know how Dumbledore loves moving the pieces around, so I'd have to put this in the 'likely' column)." The watchers could see, through the Geist's head, the visual aids on the screen adjusting themselves as she spoke. "I believe that, however Dumbledore dies, both Harry and Voldemort will *believe* that Snape is responsible. Snape will foster this belief in Voldemort; it will be an unfortunate conclusion drawn by Harry (who for whatever reason--Dumbledore's general lack of any desire to explain anything, a misunderstood conversation, a missed message, etc.--will not know or will refuse to believe that Snape did not do it). "At this point, Snape and Dumbledore will have accomplished two key things: --Snape will have proven himself to Voldemort and will be reinstated with full DE honors or whatever, in the inner circle. Even if he wasn't in the Inner inner circle before, I think he will be now, because (a) Voldemort's followers have diminshed somewhat and (b) Snape now has a very useful position. --The spell, whatever it is, to which Dumbledore's death is integral, will have been completed (or nearly so). "These are key because Snape will now be in a *superb* position to implement or otherwise set in motion or effect, the spell. Having a tremendous spell ready is of no use at all, if the spell cannot be cast or implemented due to lack of access. Access is of no use without a weapon. Snape will have both the access and the means." Amandageist waved the screen away. The sighs of relief that filled the room blew her across the room; she glared at the assembly as she returned to hovering just over the bar. A book materialized where the screen had been and flipped open; a section of type enlarged itself. Everyone read 'To one as young as you, I'm sure it seems incredible, but to Nicolas and Perenelle, it really is like going to bed after a very, *very* long day. After all, to the well-organised mind, death is but the next great adventure.' (PS, p. 215) "See?" Amandageist asked. "It's right there in the first book. Dumbledore does not fear death. And in canon, he has already accepted a willing death (two actually, both Flamels) to achieve a greater good. Further, if the Pensieve shows nothing else, it does show that Dumbledore has a well-organized mind. [And quite possibly the Pensieve can be left to another after he dies; although it may go dark and empty if its source is gone.] "I know, I know," the Geist sighed. "This is Major, you want more Bangs. Okay, here. "Harry, given his age and past, will be unable to accept Dumbledore's death as anything but tragedy--a further detriment to his interpretation of Snape's role, and an opening for Bangs when he finds out the truth and/or struggles to accept it. Harry will be forced to the point where Snape was, in the Shrieking Shack--given the opportunity to recognize that an object of hatred had been misunderstood and was, in actuality, as much a victim as himself. Snape rejected Lupin as another to whom Dumbledore's second chance meant the world; it didn't even seem to register. Will Harry fail where Snape did, or will Harry be able to get around his own hatred for Snape and accept the truth? Bang. "And Snape himself. He is also very young, and to quote Jan one last time, 'has a past with a capital P.' While he will be old enough to accept what Dumbledore is doing/has made him do, on an *intellectual* level, he will be having massive problems of his own on the *emotional* level. He's already pretty unsteady there as it is. Snape's own difficulties with what transpires will further confuse things--he has his own reactions to deal with on top of everything else. I think that Dumbledore's death will devastate Snape, for I believe that to Snape as to Lupin, Dumbledore's trust has meant everything. Leaving room for a loud Bang when Snape *must* deal with all this." Amandageist glanced over at Cindy, to see if all this Banging pleased her, and was irked to see her head down on the bar beside her drink, gently snoring. The Geist clapped her hands and the book disappeared as well. She glanced down at the bar. "It'd be nice, it would, to be able to drink after all that," she sighed. "Oh, well. I'll be available for questions if anyone needs me; in the meantime, I'll be making myself useful." She zoomed up to the ceiling and busied herself filling balloons with garlic water to drop on the Vampire!Snapetheorists. ~Amanda From indigo at indigosky.net Sun Nov 24 20:17:07 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:17:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] expulsion (was Snape and the Prank) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200211241517070026.0086BB00@mail.indigosky.net> No: HPFGUIDX 47078 On 11/24/2002 at 5:10 AM corinthum wrote: >I would just like to add a quick (well, not so quick) note about >expulsion. I don't particularly understand why people seek an reason >for Sirius not to be expelled for the Prank other than the fact that >his actions did not merit such a punishment. > >Did Sirius do something that deserved punishment? Certainly. I >personally hold the opinion that Sirius was simply being a thoughtless >16 year old boy when he pulled the Prank. However, even if he >actually had malign intentions (wanted Snape to be injured or even >killed), the fact is he was unsuccessful. > >Expulsion is an extremely harsh punishment. In schools today, it >takes quite a bit to be expelled (ridiculous instances of 6-year olds >being expelled for making obviously unreal threats notwithstanding). >Now consider the magic world. Hogwarts isn't just the best school in >England. It's the only one. Yes, I know some people don't think >this, but to this point we have absolutely no evidence to the >contrary. I would assume that if there were other schools, Hagrid >would have transferred to one of these once he was expelled. So >getting expelled basically means the end of one's wizarding future. >Sure, you can remain in the Wizarding World and hold a "minimum wage" >sort of job, but you will never be a true witch or wizard and practice >magic. > >So being expelled from Hogwarts is a much more serious punishment than >being expelled from an ordinary muggle school. In fact, the only >person we've ever heard of getting expelled is Hagrid. Yes, Snape >threatens it constantly, and various students taunt each other with >it. But the only actual crime we know of that has prompted expulsion >has been murder. And even if it was proved that Sirius wanted Snape >injured, or even killed (the latter I find hard to believe), he didn't >force Snape to pass the Whomping Willow. > >What we have is a 16-year old boy who indirectly put a fellow student >at risk, possibly without truly meaning to do so. Hardly enough to >expel someone. > > >-Corinth, who just finished a thesis (seems to be a trend here, huh?), >and finally can think about pointless things again > I'm inclined to agree with Corinth in that it takes a _major_ transgression to get one expelled from Hogwarts [though the same may not be true of Beaubaxtons or Durmstrang]. Has anyone compiled a full list of stuff that's expulsionable from Hogwarts? I don't seem to recall one but some of my lurking may as well have been obliviated when muggle-mundanity dragged me away from the computer. Please forgive if I'm being redundant. So -- Non-Expulsionable Offenses Going into the Forbidden Forest against orders seems not only non-expulsionable, but it has been used as a form of detention. Damaging the Whomping Willow. Though this came from Snape who has an obvious anti-Harry bias, and would probably have been shouting "Expell him!" if Harry had sneezed during a Potions class or otherwise done something small wrong. Scampering around Hogwarts and/or its grounds after "lights out" or out of bounds areas at any time. McGonnagall is at least fair to go with her strictness. She is equally harsh on Malfoy as she was on her own Gryffindors. Being a werewolf. Though we don't know if anyone else in Hogwarts has ever suffered lycanthropy. I'm Presuming Remus is the only one to date. Magical ineptitude: Seamus and Neville would've been sent home long before book 4. Any and all of the 473 things that Filch has listed in his file cabinet, especially the Sirius Black and Fred/George Weasley files. The Sirius Prank, which was not meant as an actual attempted murder. Snape just sees it that way; and okay, he has a right to the bias to a degree. Expulsionable Offenses Underage wizardry in front of muggles [excepting cased of it being an accident, like the inflation of Aunt Marge]. Oddly, the Flying Ford Anglia incident was not accidental, but all it got Harry and Ron was detention. Killing anyone. Hagrid and Aragog are innocent of this crime but the expulsion was never reversed when his name was cleared, even though Riddle and the Basilisk were proven the real culprits. Most people I have discussed this with say it's the half-giant prejudice against Hagrid that resulted in nobody doing anything to reinstate his wand since he didn't do the thing that he was expelled for. The second argument against reinstating Hagrid was because of his monsters-as-cute-pets tendency. But I disagree, because Fluffy was apparently useful to Hogwarts as a guardian, and Hagrid wasn't fired for having Fluffy and Fang; nor was he fired for the Norbert incident. The third argument I hear against reinstating him is that he's too old to catch up now. It's pretty much considered common knowledge among readership, anyway, that his wand-halves are in his pink umbrella. But is there no provision for Hagrid or anyone else taking the equivalent of an American GED -- something he could study for and get up to speed magically? I'm guessing this means the wizarding world's that good about predicting or divining new wizards by age 11. Offenses that may be Expulsionable Being an unregistered Animagus. Sirius, James, Pettigrew, and Rita Skeeter are all unregistered Animagi, and according to Hermione, this is a serious offense. Indigo, who is thinking a lot for a Sunday afternoon. From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Sun Nov 24 18:24:14 2002 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:24:14 -0000 Subject: Another look at the prank... Maybe Sirius is sorry..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47079 * I'm just continuing from my post #46980. You may want to read that to see what I'm rambling about.... Outside of MMWP, DD, and Madame Pomefroy, I believe that the rest of the teachers, staff, school governors and other people closely involved with the operations of Hogwarts knew about Lupin's condition; why else would Dumbledore be able to procure a Whomping Willow and still keep it after a kid lost his eye (or am I mistaken on this bit ) if it wasn't for some internal purpose (**). **It would take more than a bad-tempered tree to keep out DE's/Voldemort; they could destroy it or avoid it. Simple as that** Does anyone ever wonder if Sirius really is ashamed of the prank? Ashamed that he wasn't expelled? Not in the "Oh my, I nearly killed someone!" sense (no one can really agree on that), but more along the "Maybe my past is the reason why I'm in Azkaban" sense. One day in the Daily Prophet, there's the Potter's wedding announcement mentioning Sirius Black as the Best man. By this time, many former classmates and parents of said classmates hold positions within the ministry. The former classmates remember Sirius and James, but with some trepidation. What may have seen like fun and games when one is 12, 13, or even 16, probably isn't consider funny when one is 20 or so *With the exception of Monty Python* < Snip all the actions and reactions of Bullying that have already been discussed with relation to the prank>. The parents might've remembered letters home describing tricks that were played on the nasty, but defenseless Squib Caretaker by those exact boys and sent letters back saying " How amusing, but don't you do anything that stupid" and wonder just exactly DD is trying to teach these kids. The wizards and witches closest to Hogwarts and who knew the whole story about Lupin might wonder as to why a good boy like James maintained his association with that Black brat after the whole debatacle and chuckled amongst themselves that it must be Lupin's time of the month as the reason why Lupin couldn't fill the post himself (the poor lad always had bad PMS you know). Fast forward to after the Potter's are killed. Rumours are flying fast and furious, everyone is in a shock. Congregating in large groups, people are able to put 2 and 2 together like only Snape can. They've created the macabre game of trying to see which school prank showed the true Sirius. Notice how Sirius `dragged ` James along everytime . Maybe he killed Potter because he wouldn't be dragged into joining Voldemort .My Hannah said that one time . The theories go on and on. Again, those closer to Hogwarts at the time of MMWP hold higher places in the Ministry and have knowledge of the one prank that no one in the general public is aware of and it is this prank that becomes Sirius' undoing. Charming the Headmasters toilet to hum "Singing in the Rain" is really small peas compared to the fact that there is previous evidence of Sirius trying to kill someone. Sure the kid who was attacked had an interest in the Dark Arts but this Sirius kid was the one who was really knee deep in it. They should've expelled him right off the bat back then, they agree, and send off owls declaring a warrant for Sirius to be captured alive and brought into custody, without trial. Fast forward, again, to the trial of Severus Snape. That kid was not only interested in the Dark Arts, he was an actual DE. Several things are working in Snape's favour this time. First of all, He was a spy for the light side. Secondly, DD surprisingly vouches for the kid who was a Slytherin even, let alone a deatheater. Thirdly, that Macabre game everyone loves to play has spread to the courts, trying to use past actions to see if there were warning signs of how people would behave in the future. To what extent, those higher-ups wondered, did the prank influence Snape's path into the DE's. They won't say anything publicly because Lupin deserves privacy and protection and shouldn't be dragged into this like he was the first time around but they wonder is the prank was the straw that broke the camel's back and push Snape towards the dark side. "How evil is he really?' they ask. He couldn't have been all that bad if he agreed to spy for OUR side. But is he actually looking out for himself or doe he really see the error of his ways .. Arguments continue deep into the night Their only solution, due to their collective uncertainty, is to release Snape into DD's custody (It was all his fault anyways damn Whomping willow ). Hogwarts is now straining against the outside influences of the adult wizarding world. The complexities of the four houses has been oversimplified and are now referred to by students as the Duffer house, the Smart house, the Good house, and the Bad house. DD nods knowingly as he is lectured about being fairer in his punishments and to examine all information before make any `unusual judgements' again. DD, those damn eyes all a twinkle, says he will and that the court would do well to swallow some of its own medicine. The court is bewildered by what he meant and Dumbledore talks to Severus about the irony of the situation, saying only "You know, they were the ones who told me that Sirius should stay at Hogwarts". Basically: Sirius is ashamed because his past actions actually played a crucial role in his incarceration. If he had actually thought about what he did, he might not be where he is today. Okay, maybe he would be, but he might have had a trial at least. But he would never admit to that. -SophineClaire ( Who looks forward to the third movie mainly to hear how Sirius' name is really pronounced Is it `Serious' or `Sigh-Russ' ala Thirteen Ghosts (where it is spelt as Cyrus)). From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Sun Nov 24 18:32:52 2002 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:32:52 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Prank...some thoughts/Animagus Size/Babysitter Club!Crouch JR. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47080 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "finwitch" wrote: > For one thing, we do /not/ know how much Sirius really had to do with > the trick. It is possible that ALL he did was leak information on how > to get past the Whomping Willow - by accident, confusion etc. > > Exactly. That's all we know through Canon. > Still, what if Sirius wasn't playing a trick, but /Peter/ was? This is the basis of my Imperious!Sirius theory (Read posts 46592 and 46980 to see what I'm rambling about * or just look for things written by sophineclaire*) For Imperious!Sirius to actually work, the whole `Dark mark connection has to work. I mean, how did Peter, who is viewed as a tag-a-long and a fairly weak wizard become an Animagus (*) unless it was through the `assistance' of an older, more powerful DE. Voldemort doesn't expect much of new recruits, especially teenage ones, but does try to trap them through this increase in power. Once they become dependent on their new abilities, Voldemort demands proof of loyalty and threatens to take away many of these new powers unless Peter shows this proof. (**) The DE's are in desperate need of a potions expert and lucky for them, the best one for the job already has an invested interest in the Dark Arts. Unfortunately, he's at Hogwarts under the muggle- loving Dumbledore but he is in Slytherin. We have no proof in canon that Sirius knew any of Snape's DE friends aside from knowing their names (and only their last names too!), So what would be the point to send Rosier, Avery, or LeStrange to place an Imperious curse on Sirius when he would either walk away from them at the sight of the, be surrounded by fellow Gryffindors, or knock them out before they could pull out their wands. But Peter (possibly) shares a room with Sirius and has a greater chance of being alone with Sirius long enough to do the deed. Funny thing is, it's a bit easier to suggest to Sirius under Imperious that the prank might be a good laugh since there is already a strong rivalry between the two boys ( Both being prefects working for the Head Boy position of course ) and Sirius is actually trying to figure out whether he is under Imperious, or if it really is a good idea . Against his better judgement, the prank goes ahead, Snape is drawn into the Dark Side, and Pettigrew know is told to lie in wait for his next assignment. *Why do a lot of people think that bigger is better? I see that becoming an animagus form such as an Elk or huge dog, though quite difficult, requires a merely stretching and reshaping of bones and magnification of hair to achieve the animal form. More of a distortion of form cause by expansion of the human body's large form. To transform into a smaller creature such as a Tabby Cat, Rat, or Beetle (or Bee if that is DD's animagus) might require a bit more magic to compress and distort the bones and muscles into a structure that is many times smaller than a human beings. In fact, beetles have a completely different anatomy than animal, let alone humans. Therefore, bigger isn't always better and McGonagall has a lot more kick to her then JKR lets on.* **I think back to Barty Crouch Jr. in GOF when I say this. He tells Harry that he will prove that he was the most faithful of all the DE's. Maybe he never had a chance to prove his worthiness during the first reign of Voldemort. A new recruit at 17 or 18, his main task at DE meetings/gatherings was to baby-sit all those kids the DE's were either kidnapping or having to fulfill some sort of prophecy. So, in GOF, Barty finally gets to prove his loyalty in a way that doesn't involve changing diapers.** >> That rat IS a tricky one, managing to fake his own death all too > often. Sirius figured it all out, only too late to warn James in > time... To warn him what a nasty rat they all had trusted in... > > -- Finwitch Yes, indeed. Why isn't anyone worried about sneak attacks on the castle?. Pettigrew did help create the map and probably remembered all or the more hidden secret passages. Might he be the one to lead MacNair to the Shrieking Shack in Book 5.... SophineClaire- Oh dear oh dear... From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Sun Nov 24 18:37:13 2002 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:37:13 -0000 Subject: Snape IS a vampire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47081 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dangermousehq at h... wrote: > firstly: > --- jomamaumd wrote: > > Snape IS a vampire - there's no doubt about it!! > > ---Ms Lizard Gizzard replied:--- > So how does he attend daytime quidditch matches? > > Though I don't subscribe to the idea of Snapey being a vampire, maybe he > wore sunscreen? > > -DM If you want to base JKR's version of Vampire's on Stoker's Dracula, Vampires can go out in the sun, among other things. But their powers are reduced. SophinceClaire- From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Sun Nov 24 18:41:20 2002 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (dangermousehq at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:41:20 -0800 Subject: Other Schools References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47082 Corinthum wrote: "Hogwarts isn't just the best school in England. It's the only one. Yes, I know some people don't think this, but to this point we have absolutely no evidence to the contrary." I think you're right. I call your attention to Chamber of Secrets, Hardback Page 94 (Midway through Chapter 6). Justin Finch-Fletchley says: "My name was down for Eton, you know... of course, Mother was slightly disappointed, but since I made her read Lockhart's books, I think she's begun to see how useful it'll be to have a fully trained wizard in the family..." At first, I thought this meant there were other wizarding schools in England, that Eton was just another one. Not so, I learned. I'm sure the Brits might have known this, but for all the Americans, click here. As you can see, Eton is just your normal muggle boarding school. A really cool one, though. Just thought I'd say... -DM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dorigen at hotmail.com Sun Nov 24 20:40:58 2002 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:40:58 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Selection of DADA Teachers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47083 >All of this Snape talk has brought up a fairly mundane question in my mind. >*Why* can't Snape have the DADA position? This is, in my opinion, a very good question. Reading along, one simply takes for granted the fact that Snape wants the job but will never get it, just as the Coyote will never catch the Road Runner. It's a given. However, although I am not a Snape fan by any means, two things are clear about Snape: he is a) competent and b) a good judge of character (he is, for example, not fooled by either Quirrel or Lockhart). And as has been mentioned, Snape has actual experience with the Dark Arts on both sides, which is probably not true even of (real) Moody and Dumbledore. Furthermore, if Dumbledore were put off by Snape's miserable teaching skills he'd have fired him already from the job he has. So there must be a good reason why the perfectly qualified Snape is not in the running for the DADA position. It may be that others are right and he doesn't really want it, despite the prevailing opinion of his students. It may also be that although Dumbledore will put up with Snape's attitude toward his students in a Potions class, he thinks it would be pushing everyone's luck to have him teaching a DADA class, sort of like putting a universally disliked person in charge of a self-defense class. It gives everyone the wrong mindset for the class, and also will probably end up with someone getting seriously hurt. But I think that Snape, who as we already know is a really good Potions specialist, is more valuable to Dumbledore in the position he holds now. This may be because potions are going to be very important to the ongoing/upcoming struggle and Snape will need to justify the time, research, supplies, and expenses that he will be using for whatever Dumbledore needs. This will be much easier if he is the Potions master than if he were the DADA teacher. Some of the possibilities that come to mind are potions that defend against the Dark Arts, poison antidotes, restoratives, etc. Perhaps Snape will be able to produce potions that heal people like Neville's parents. Or render people invulnerable to certain spells or Curses. And anyway, if Lupin is coming back into the fray, he'll need his potion every month. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From dorigen at hotmail.com Sun Nov 24 20:58:55 2002 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:58:55 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] on Neville Longbottom Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47084 >*Good sidenote*, Finwitch. Have you gotten the impression from the books >that Neville's garbled magic is still tapping into some greater source of >power than meets the eye? And everybody's discussed why he was put into >Gryffindor, whatever corner of the net they're in. The easy one first: Neville Longbottom is in Gryffindor because he 1) has courage, the first attribute of a Gryffindor person and 2) in all probability asked to be there, the same way Harry did. In my opinion Neville's choices were Gryffindor or Hufflepuff. About Neville's bungling magic, the best theory I have heard is that he, like Harry, saw his parents assaulted by Dark forces, but unlike Harry he was old enough to have conscious memories rather than unconscious ones, and therefore someone removed those memories with Memory Charms. Apparently Memory Charms, if strong enough, will affect one's ability to remember *anything* (e.g., Bertha Jorkens), and this is why Neville is such a sieve. And his bad memory affects his learning capability. He seems to have *power* enough, once it manifested (maybe that was slowed down by the Charms too); he's just not capable of *doing* much with it. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Sun Nov 24 21:28:44 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 21:28:44 -0000 Subject: Neville Longbottom shouldn't be in Hufflepuff (WASRe: on Neville Longbottom) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47085 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Janet Anderson" wrote: > In my opinion > Neville's choices were Gryffindor or Hufflepuff. Hufflepuff? I've heard this a lot but why? What Hufflepuff traits does Neville have? I'm sure there's something about this in the archives. Ah, here we are. Message 39980 - Elkins - The Sorting of Neville Longbottom - I missed it when I was hunting up all those other Neville posts. She goes through all the Hufflepuff attributes, and shows that Neville would be a lousy Hufflepuff. A must read. Eileen From jodel at aol.com Sun Nov 24 21:34:30 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:34:30 EST Subject: Peeves Not A Real Ghost? Message-ID: <17a.125c804a.2b129fe6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47086 Karen askes; >>Sir Nicholas is the one speaking in this quote. What does he mean when he says Peeves isn't really a ghost? Was there something in the other three books that I forgot telling why is isn`t a real ghost? What does everyone think of this?<< Peeves is identified from the beginning as a poltergeist. Poltergeists are not actually ghosts. They are a specific documented type of psychic phenomena in the real world. According to real world deffinition they are not the revenants of anything that was once alive, but a turbulent, malicious manefestation of psychic energy into the physical world which occurs in the presence of some "frequency" (my interpretation) of psychic disturbance -- usually in the proximity of a disturbed adolescent. One major distinction between a ghost and a poltergeist is that a poltergeist opperates in the physical world, while a ghost does not. (Note, Scheeherazade's conflicting deffinition is sound insofar as it refers to the earlier attempts to explain the effects of poltergeist manefestation -- which has been documented for far longer than the modern deffinitions currently in use have been around. Evidently it took a while before anyone made the intuitive leap to postulate that these "ghosts" which interact with the physical world might be entities which were never actually alive.) Hogwarts castle has been the holding ground of generations of psychicly "active" adolescents for centuries, quite a number of whom are probably opperating on whatever "frequency" is associated with generating poltergeists. That being the case, it would be remarkable if the castle didn't have at least one. Note; there is no reason to suppose that Rowling has not used the real world deffinition as the basis for her version of a poltergeist. Much as she has used conventional deffinitions as the basis for her werewolves, giants or vampires, and the traditional folkloric tradition of the various styles of "brownie" as her basis for House Elves. Poltergeist is simply a more recent term, and consequently not as familiar to the reader. -JOdel From meepmeepziptang at hotmail.com Sun Nov 24 22:02:24 2002 From: meepmeepziptang at hotmail.com (sayse22) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:02:24 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and the missing 24 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47087 I wasn't able to find any posts specifically on this subject. Why was Hagrid entrusted with caring for Harry after Voldemort had killed Lily and James? We know Hagrid is trustworthy, but he's not (so far as we know) a very powerful wizard. He doesn't even have a proper wand. Isn't it a bit odd, then, that he of all people was given the charge of protecting the Death Eater's most obvious target? We know it couldn't be because everyone was so confident in Voldemort's defeat that he and the DE's were no longer feared. So, what's going on? From klekatgirl at yahoo.com Sun Nov 24 22:08:30 2002 From: klekatgirl at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:08:30 -0000 Subject: Polyjuice Potion! Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47088 barefootpuppets" wrote in Re: Polyjuice Potion!Dumbledore on the 22nd of November: "The fact that we have just NOW discovered something about "special protection" for Harry while he is in the care of his relatives..." I think that the protection Harry has while he is at the Dursley's may have something to do with Mrs. Figg. She is, after all, part of the old crowd called together at the end of GoF. I think the old crowd is a group who bands together to fight Voldemort. Possibly that group could be called The Order of the Phoenix. I think she is who keeps Voldemort away while he's at his relatives house. Karen From kela_bit at netvision.net.il Sun Nov 24 21:43:30 2002 From: kela_bit at netvision.net.il (Klei) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 23:43:30 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What about Myrtle? (was: Peeves Not A Real Ghost?) References: <17a.125c804a.2b129fe6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DE14802.9030107@netvision.net.il> No: HPFGUIDX 47089 You all say that a poltergeist can move things, and can alter the physical world. And that seems correct for all ghosts plus Peeves the poltergeist, except Myrtle. She is definitely a ghost, as she was killed. But still, she can flood the bathroom quite easily. How come? Katsmall the Wise kela_bit at netvision.net.il From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 24 22:09:28 2002 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:09:28 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Other Schools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021124160448.077f2470@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47090 >Corinthum wrote: >"Hogwarts isn't just the best school in >England. It's the only one. Yes, I know some people don't think >this, but to this point we have absolutely no evidence to the >contrary." As to both this issue and the corollary question of whether all wizards attend Hogwarts, I think it is fair to say that there is no conclusive (or even really persuasive) evidence either way. It depends more on each individual's general perceptions of the WW. That is what makes these such interesting issues. Jim (who is undecided about other wizard schools comparable to Hogwarts in Britain, but believes that other schools for wizards do exist in Britain and that not all British Wizards attend Hogwarts). From kaityf at jorsm.com Sun Nov 24 22:33:24 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:33:24 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid and the missing 24 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021124162628.02d81dc8@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47091 I just wrote up a (long) scenario about "Snape and the Potters," which includes a partial explanation for this. I think that Snape was on the scene when the Potters were killed, at least when Lilly was killed. I also think that it's possible that Lucius Malfoy was there too. For a number of reasons I outlined in my previous post, I think Hagrid was sent to get Harry when everything was settled. If Snape and Lucius were there as I suggested, by the time Hagrid arrived it would have been a pretty certain thing that Voldemort was gone. Lucius might have left before Snape, who remained to watch over little Harry until Hagrid arrived, unbeknownst to Lucius, who would be in a big hurry to get the heck out of Dodge. He wouldn't want to be even remotely connected to the deaths of the Potters. Anyway, take a look at my earlier post and see if that scenario wouldn't help answer your question. At 10:02 PM 11/24/2002 +0000, you wrote: >I wasn't able to find any posts specifically on this subject. Why >was Hagrid entrusted with caring for Harry after Voldemort had killed >Lily and James? We know Hagrid is trustworthy, but he's not (so far >as we know) a very powerful wizard. He doesn't even have a proper >wand. Isn't it a bit odd, then, that he of all people was given the >charge of protecting the Death Eater's most obvious target? We know >it couldn't be because everyone was so confident in Voldemort's >defeat that he and the DE's were no longer feared. So, what's going >on? > > > > > >________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > >Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! >http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > >Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material >from posts to which you're replying! > >Is your message... >An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to >HPFGU-Announcements. >Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. >Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. >None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. >Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- >mods at hpfgu.org.uk > >Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com >____________________________________________________________ > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sun Nov 24 22:38:47 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:38:47 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What about Myrtle? (was: Peeves Not A Real Ghost?) References: <17a.125c804a.2b129fe6@aol.com> <3DE14802.9030107@netvision.net.il> Message-ID: <3DE154F7.BD4AC8B@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47092 Klei wrote: > > You all say that a poltergeist can move things, and can alter the > physical world. And that seems correct for all ghosts plus Peeves the > poltergeist, except Myrtle. She is definitely a ghost, as she was > killed. But still, she can flood the bathroom quite easily. How come? > > Katsmall the Wise > kela_bit at netvision.net.il Its not perfectly clear if she flooded it or if Ginny made the bathroom flood when she tried to flush the diary. The diary hit her in the head.. in the U BEND of the toilet, which is under the seat in fact, where the water passes through when it is flushed. Something about her living there makes the toilet back up? Well.. one would think the water (and whatever else) would pass right through her. Might disturb her enough to leave the toilet violently and cause it to back up and overflow all over, cept for the times she's asleep and gets flushed to the lake.. (why would their plumbing empty into the lake?? Do the monsters there eat human waste or is the lake really disgusting?) Ghosts perhaps have limited, uncontrolled ability to effect the material world or like in the movie Ghost, they have to concentrate hard to do it and it exhausts them quickly.. Jazmyn From cindysphynx at comcast.net Sun Nov 24 22:46:21 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:46:21 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Banging On The Dishwasher (WAS Dumbledore's head ) In-Reply-To: <17d.126267bf.2b1166c7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47093 Melody, Abigail and Pip were huddled at a circular table in the corner of the Tavern and had prevailed upon George to provide some of his budget culinary offerings. The table was strewn with several partially consumed frozen dinners and bowls of canned chili, as well as a loaf of noticeably stale white bread. George, who had mumbled his regrets for serving up the provisions reserved for natural disasters, bustled back up from the basement storage room, his muscular arms laden with three dented cans of corned beef that bulged only slightly. Cindy sidled up to the table and leaned heavily against it, causing two of the platters of food to slide several inches closer to the edge. "I couldn't help but overhear a bit of your MAGICDISHWASHER conversation," she said quietly. "Something about it being canon- proof." "Yes," Abigail said. "Some in the Safe House are claiming that MAGICDISHWASHER is canon-proof, claiming they don't need verification in canon. I say that's just a hop and a skip away from claiming that all canon contradiction is, in fact, a lie or a misdirection. This is very upsetting to those of us with MD canon concerns." "What do you think, Cindy?" Melody asked hopefully. "You think MAGICDISHWASHER is canon-proof *and* Bangy, right?" Pip peered up as well, nodding her approval. Cindy stood motionless, just long enough for those at the surrounding tables to grow quiet. Some, sensing trouble, grabbed their drinks and snacks and scurried to the far side of the Tavern. Others, overconfident because Cindy had been pleasant and affable for most of the evening, chose not to move and instead craned their necks or pivoted their chairs in her direction for a better view. This, as it turned out, was a mistake. Cindy's eyes suddenly narrowed to slits, her upper lip curling into a snarl. "HERE'S WHAT I THINK OF YOUR CANON-PROOF MAGICDISHWASHER!!!!" she bellowed. She grabbed the edge of the circular table and heaved it with all her strength, sending it flipping into the air like a tiddlywink. Refreshments sprayed the surrounding tables, cheap plastic cutlery bouncing off the tile floor, beer glasses shattering, launching razor-sharp shards into the crowd. "Darn! . . . Impossible! . . . Theory!" Cindy shrieked, punctuating each word with a stomp on the debris strewn on the floor. "Can't! . . . Under . . . Stand . . . It!" Flattened plastic ketchup packets sent arcs of scarlet paste to the walls, forming a splatter pattern as though someone had been shot at close range. Cindy kicked the dried flower arrangement so hard that it caromed off the ceiling and landed on top of one of the torches, bursting into flames and leaving a long scorch mark on the plaster. George threw down his dishrag and raced around from behind the bar, grabbing Cindy by the scruff of the neck. "What the heck do you think you're doing?!" he bellowed. "Are you trying to put me out of business?" He glanced around nervously at his guests; the few who had not taken cover were frozen in disbelief, bits of processed meat clinging to their hair. Melody, Abigail and Pip sat motionless in their chairs, gaping at what used to be their dinner. George lowered his voice, his lips close to Cindy's right ear. "Look," he hissed. "One more outburst like that and I'll throw you out of here, I swear it. I don't know what sort of place you run on that destroyer of yours, but I run a clean and orderly establishment." "I'm sorry -? " "No, this is it, Cindy. I mean it -- one more time and you'll be out of here for good." "But I had to get their attention, George. I've read the MAGICDISHWASHER posts -?" "All 200 of them?" George asked, impressed. "Well, no," Cindy confessed, pulling free of George's grip. "But I read the really *Big* ones. And I still don't understand it. There isn't any complete explanation anywhere ?- not Hypothetic Alley, not Inish Alley, no place! And just when you think you've got it, people start talking about *meta-thinking,* whatever that is. Elkins tried to explain meta-thinking to me one time, and I didn't get it. What's wrong with me that I didn't get it, George? I thought my head was going to *explode!* "Besides, Abigail has a point. The cornerstone of MAGICDISHWASHER seems to be that Albus Dumbledore is living a lie! Any bit of canon that support MD is embraced, but any canon that contradicts MD can be dismissed as Master Misdirection, all carefully orchestrated as part of a master plan to restore Voldemort. Even if Dumbledore were to face down Voldemort and explicitly disavow MD, the MD crowd would just say he was lying. "That means the theory has no *tension* -- no inherent risk! If it can never be disproved, it can't be exciting. So if the MD adherents say that their theory is totally incontrovertible, well . . . then why even bother to analyze it? So I have a question, one simple question: Can any of the MD adherents tell us what it would take to *disprove* the theory?" "Cindy, haven't you figured out the point of MD yet?" George rolled his eyes. "It's not *supposed* to be a real theory. That's the whole point! Pip came up with a theory that *no one* -- and I mean no one ?- can possibly understand! You're not supposed to get it. Ever. So the main rule of MD is this: 'If you have to ask, you shouldn't ask.' Got it?" George grabbed Cindy's upper arm and guided her with just a bit more force than was comfortable to the far corner of the room. "Look, no good will come from having you anywhere near the MD table. Why don't you go over and see what's happening at Saboteur!Snape. I think they're talking about you." George released her arm and shoved her roughly in the back to keep her moving. Cindy straightened her uniform, and marched confidently up to the Saboteur!Snape table. Charis and Derannimer were still there and deeply absorbed in conversation, their glasses drained and their platters empty. " . . . I never meant that Snape couldn't be a spy," Derannimer was saying. "I simply meant that there is no Bang with Snape the Spy. After all . . . " Derannimer stopped in mid-sentence, her voice dying in her throat as she noticed Cindy's shadow fall across the table. "Go on. I'm listening" Cindy said. "Uh . . . well . . ." Derannimer tried to stop herself from flinching and fought to find her voice. "Yes, there could be a great deal of violence and angst and such with Snape the Spy. But no more than with Snape the Saboteur." "You know, I think Saboteur!Snape has the same sort of problem that the MAGICDISHWASHER folks are having," Cindy said calmly. "There's a certain lack of tension in Saboteur!Snape. I mean, what happens if Saboteur!Snape fails?" "Fails?" asked Charis Julia. "Right. Fails. Like Snape goes to Azkaban and can't conjure a Patronus. Are you saying that he'll just say, 'Uh-oh. Should have paid attention in DADA classes after all. Right then, Dementors, I'll shove off now'? Or he'll get his soul sucked out on the spot and that's it for Snape for the next three books? The lack of tension is that if Snape succeeds in booting the Dementors out of Azkaban, it doesn't Bang. And if he fails, it only Bangs a little bit at best. Nah, if JKR is going to sacrifice Snape, it's not going to be half a page of him feeling woozy and cold before his soul is sucked out. Oh, no. If Snape dies, it will be *huge,* and for me anyway, intensely satisfying. It will go on and on and on. I just don't think Saboteur!Snape has enough heft for a character like Snape." "Well," Derannimer sniffed, "you still have not addressed the problems with Snape the Spy. It's too predictable. There's the little problem that 95% of readers, no matter how casual or even lazy, already believe in Snape the Spy. It can't Bang; it's too well established." Cindy frowned deeply, her forehead wrinkled as though in intense concentration. No, Derannimer thought. That wasn't concentration. That was sun damage. "Sounds familiar, doesn't it?" asks Derannimer quietly. "I was poking around in town, and I found *this* in Message 38,921: ********** >*No way* is Cindy going for any of those alternative Memory Charm >theories because. . . they are all sizzle and no Bang. No >Bang at all. Lots of allegations of corruption and collusion and >such, that's true, but no more so than in MATCHINGARMCHAIR. >In the final analysis, though, we're talking about that same old >Traditional Memory Charm that 90% of readers worked out on their >own. Nothing can change the fact that, no matter how much you dress >up those Traditional Memory Charm theories, *there's no potential >Bangy plot twist with Memory Charm Neville because we've all been >ready for it since the end of GoF.* *********** "Where did you get that?" Cindy asked in disbelief. "I don't remember saying any such thing." She snatched the scrap of paper from Derannimer's hand. "I know it's not really *that strong* of an argument," Derannimer smirked, "but hey; good enough for you, good enough for me." "What the -- oh . . . *Oh,* I see!" Cindy staring down at the tiny print on the yellowing paper. "You think . . . you . . . you thought *I* said this?" She began to chuckle with relief. "No! No, no, no. This is just a page from the script." "The script?" Derannimer echoed blankly. "The script," Cindy repeated. "From the smash hit Spielberg production 'Bang This!' Surely you've seen 'Bang This!'" Derannimer shook her head slowly, her expression confused. "I'm new here so I -? " Cindy sighed patiently. "'Bang This!' is the low-budget film that made Elkins a *star.* The film included this paddle smashing scene Elkins had improvised, and in the blink of an eye, she was a Hollywood sensation! Leno, Letterman, even Jerry Springer -? oh, she was *hot!* And then success started to be too much for her. She started theorizing day and night. Some days she never left her house, never slept, never ate ?- she just paced back and forth, spinning ever more wild theories, trying everything she could think of, buying theories off of two-bit hacks in crummy neighborhoods, just for the thrills. Some of us tried an intervention, but we couldn't get through to her. Before you could say 'subversion,' Elkins had crashed and burned. She hasn't theorized in ages, although some say she is going to make a comeback -? something about redemption. Last I heard, she was wandering the town, her fame gone, her money gone, accosting strangers, mumbling about a storm . . . ." Cindy's voice trailed off and she turned toward the wall abruptly, dabbing at something that had lodged itself in her left eye. "I'm sorry," Derannimer mumbled. "I didn't mean ?- " "No, it's OK," Cindy sniffed. She picked up Derannmer's napkin and blew her nose vigorously. "Really, it's OK. I'll tell you what. You're a good theorist. Let's do something to take our minds off of that darn movie. How about we have a little fun with The Sirius Apologist? I found a canon in GoF, 'The Scar' that ought to stir things up a bit. Watch this . . . " Cindy stepped onto the wooden dance floor at the center of the Tavern and slipped her wand from her uniform. She took careful aim at the wall and began to write: ************ "What he really wanted (and it felt almost shameful to admit it to himself) was someone like ? someone like a *parent*: an adult wizard whose advice he could ask without feeling stupid, someone who cared about him, who had had experience with Dark Magic . . . . And then the solution came to him. It was so simple, so obvious, that he couldn't believe it had taken so long ?- Sirius." ************ "Wait for it . . . just wait for it . . . " Cindy breathed. A few seconds of tense silence, and then *BANG!* The door to the Tavern flew open, a dusty mark in the shape of Dicentra's boot clearly visible on the ancient wood. Dicentra bounded into the middle of the Tavern, skidding to a stop before the words that still blazed on the wall, her wand at the ready, her rather befuddled sidekick trailing behind. "NO ONE EXPECTS THE SIRIUS --" Dicentra stopped abruptly, staring at the words from GoF, her mouth slightly open. Her wand slipped from her fingers and clattered to the floor. "Hi, Dicey," Cindy said cheerfully. "We were, uh, *expecting* you. What do you make of this little canon? I don't know if it is new or not, in fact, I'd be surprised if this hasn't come up, but I thought I'd just toss it out there. "Isn't this canon strange? I mean, Sirius is supposed to be a good guy. He was on Dumbledore's team, and he is probably good at Transfiguration. But there's nothing to suggest he knows the first thing about Dark Magic. We've never seen him perform any, and he hasn't even conjured a Patronus, so far as we know. Yet here JKR is hinting that Sirius is someone who 'had experience with Dark Magic.' What could she be implying there, exactly? That Sirius is *Ever So Evil,* do you think?" "Uh . . . " Dicentra began. "It's odd, isn't it?" Cindy said. "I consider myself a Sirius apologist, and I am rather puzzled by this canon and why JKR would write such a thing about Sirius. Tell you what. Would you have a look at that marvelous Sirius FP and let me what the conventional wisdom is on this?" Before Dicentra could reply, the air was filled with the sound of dozens of ear-splitting, shrill sirens. Most of the theorists in the Tavern clapped their hands over their ears, wincing. Prank ran to the Tavern door and began to scratch wildly, trying to escape into the night. George's shapely lips were moving, but Cindy could not make out the words over the cacophony of horns. She glanced down at her alphanumeric pager, suddenly chilled at the blunt message on its tiny screen: "Big Bang -- Mutiny -? Humpty Dumpty." She quickly punched a red button on the top of her pager, and the sirens stopped their blasting. "Don't be alarmed folks," Cindy shouted over the ringing in her ears. "It's just the security sensor on the Big Bang. I'll check it out. As you were." Her jaw set, Cindy apparated to the deck of the Big Bang Destroyer. Her sharp eyes immediately made out two slender figures near the port side. "Hold it right there!" she shouted. The two trespassers froze, and then, apparently deciding it would be useless to flee, meekly shuffled forward into the light. It was Eloise, with Pip lurking several steps behind. Cindy narrowed her eyes to slits, taking in the flimsy white cloth banner that obscured the Big Bang's gleaming brass nameplate ?- "Humpty Dumpty!" it read. She took a deep breath and advanced menacingly on Eloise. "What do you think you're doing? Why are you defacing the Big Bang?" she growled. Eloise folded her arms across her chest and spoke defiantly. "We've decided you should be relieved of command of the Big Bang. You're not fit to serve. We have a Dumbledore theory that Bangs, and you won't even acknowledge it. So we've taken matters into our own hands." She nodded her head in the direction of a crumpled box that seemed to be oozing a thick red liquid at Pip's feet. Pip nudged the box away from her with the toe of her boot, trying to look inconspicuous. "Well, all you had to do was petition to have your theory added to the manifest," Cindy said patiently. "I ought to have a bit of room on board for a theory where someone is *beheaded.* What have you got?" Eloise blinked, unable to comprehend her good fortune at being invited to house her Dumbledore theory on Big Bang. "Well," she began," Dumbledore *does* trust Hagrid with his life and Hagrid does what Hagrid does -- he fluffs it. Dumbledore dies. There is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth and Snape steps in both to protect Hagrid from the wrath of the WW and to take credit for the deed himself, (it's an 'accident' of course - even Voldemort can't expect Snape to go round openly murdering the most respected wizard of the age, which would be a bit self-defeating, really) thus simultaneously satisfying Voldemort and becoming deeply unpopular with the MoM, ordinary wizarding folks and three quarters of the school (maybe even McGonagall turning her back on him) though a hero to the Malfoys and the rest of the Slytherins." Eloise drew a sharp breath. "So there we would have the proof of Snape's loyalty and the terrible death all rolled into one neat package ?- a package containing Albus Dumbledore's very head -- with dear Severus' integrity still intact." There was an awkward silence. "That's it?" Cindy said quietly. "You defaced my ship for *that?" "Uh . . . " Eloise stammered. "It, er, seemed like a good idea at the time." "Look, I like to be accommodating, so maybe we can do something with that theory. But it can't come aboard in its current condition. I mean, right now it is basically RigorMortis!Dumbledore. Snape shows up with Dumbledore's *head* and takes credit for Dumbledore's murder? And Voldemort is so stupid he can't tell that it's a set-up? "Nah, let's tweak that just a bit. Snape needs to *apprehend* Dumbledore and deposit him *alive* at Voldemort's feet. Voldemort duels with an old and weary Dumbledore and wins. That's much more Bangy in a -- " the words caught in Cindy's throat, but she forced them out anyway ?- "MAGICDISHWASHER kind of way. Dumbledore lived a lie, and now he dies a lie. "Now, I'll be the first to admit that this theory has some problems. Having Snape deliver Karkaroff is a lot more solidly based in canon. JKR wants the reader to *loathe* Karkaroff; there isn't a sympathetic feature about the man -? weak chin, furs, lazy, fruity unctuous voice, informer, the spit -- I mean, *yuk.* Dumbledore, on the other hand, is sympathetic. Readers might not fully accept Snape having anything to do with Dumbledore's demise, even with Dumbledore's consent. All things considered, I think if anyone will be the price of admission into Voldemort's lair, it will be Karkaroff, not Dumbledore. "Besides," Cindy said icily. "If Snape manages to deliver Dumbledore, will Voldemort be satisfied with that? Of course not! Voldemort will ask for the delivery of Harry Potter, and Snape had better deliver the goods, or . . . " Cindy drew one finger slowly across her throat. "Are you sure that's what you want?" Eloise paused, glanced nervously at Pip, and gulped. "Er, can I get back to you on that?" "Oh, of course. Go back to the Tavern and have a think." Cindy said cheerfully, escorting Eloise and Pip to the deck railing. "Just do me one small favor," she said. "Take that banner with you." ************* Cindy *********** Hypothetic Alley: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hypotheticalley.html Inish Alley: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Nov 24 22:59:52 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:59:52 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Prank...some thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47094 > Penny said: > > There's also just so much we don't know about the Prank. > > What did Snape say or do to motivate Sirius to > > tell him how to follow them? What were > > Sirius' intentions? > > ....we do *NOT* know what Snape did to > > motivate the Prank. We can > > conjecture from now till sundown, > > but until OOP or Books 6 or 7 clues > > us in, we're only guessing. Judy: > This isn't my reading of the canon. I think we *do* know what Snape was doing -- he was sneaking around, trying to get the Marauders introuble. He was also being a slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid. And that's it. Sirius has had two opportunities in canon to say what Snape did to deserve the Prank, and that's all he's come up with. << There's even better canon than that. Consider Dumbledore's testimony in the Pensieve: "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However he *rejoined* our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall..." (emphasis mine.) By that time Dumbledore knew enough about Snape to satisfy himself that Severus was "now no more a Death Eater than I am." Which means that whatever Snape became under LV's influence, there was previously a time when he was on "our side." I don't believe Dumbledore would have said this if the Snape he knew at Hogwarts was a Dark Wizard or a natural sociopath. Could it be that Snape was so suspicious of the Marauders because he thought *they* were involved with Lord Voldemort? Pippin From alicit at aol.com Sun Nov 24 22:36:56 2002 From: alicit at aol.com (alicit at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:36:56 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] What about Myrtle?/Peeves Not A Real Ghost? Message-ID: <119.1b313770.2b12ae88@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47095 What about Myrtle? When you posted this question, I got an immediate flash of inspiration. Myrtle is an adolescent herself, or she was, and one who has a significant amount of emotional turmoil. Could her ability to effect change in the physical world actually be because of her psychic energy? JOdel talks about my initial post: "(Note, Scheeherazade's conflicting deffinition is sound insofar as it refers to the earlier attempts to explain the effects of poltergeist manefestation -- which has been documented for far longer than the modern deffinitions currently in use have been around. Evidently it took a while before anyone made the intuitive leap to postulate that these "ghosts" which interact with the physical world might be entities which were never actually alive.)" *sighs* Alas, my information is based on my collection of older books. Very useful for some things, but they do tend to have their theories disproven. Oh bother. They do have very pretty bindings, though. -scheherazade [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mdemeran at hotmail.com Sun Nov 24 23:23:25 2002 From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:23:25 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid and the missing 24 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004501c29410$7d082ab0$6701a8c0@MFD> No: HPFGUIDX 47096 Sayse22 wrote: I wasn't able to find any posts specifically on this subject. Why was Hagrid entrusted with caring for Harry after Voldemort had killed Lily and James? We know Hagrid is trustworthy, but he's not (so far as we know) a very powerful wizard. He doesn't even have a proper wand. Isn't it a bit odd, then, that he of all people was given the charge of protecting the Death Eater's most obvious target? We know it couldn't be because everyone was so confident in Voldemort's defeat that he and the DE's were no longer feared. So, what's going on? I wrote one of the Missing 24 hour theories. See Messages 42429 and 42568 for that theory (Molly Weasley took care of Harry) and the replies for other theories. If memory serves correctly, someone put Hagrid in a bar for the day after Voldemort's demise. But that's just what I recall of what went on. My theory holds that Hagrid was sent only for retrieval. That Molly took care of Harry for the rest of the day. Hagrid, in my opinion, only acted as a taxi service for Harry. -- Meg (who realizes this sounds worse than she means, but read her original posts for an explanation) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Sun Nov 24 23:50:16 2002 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 23:50:16 -0000 Subject: More Slytherin heterodoxy (was Slytherin, Basislsk, Chamber) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47097 Catlady (Hi, Rita!) wrote: >How could all the > people who were Sorted into Slytherin House, and all the other > wizards, and especially Tom Marvolo Riddle, consistently have such a > WRONG idea of Salazar Slytherin and what his "noble plan" was? A couple of months ago I wrote this, but didn't post it as I knew I wouldn't have time to follow any responses: Snape, Slytherin, Harry and the Sorting Hat I want to try to put a slightly different spin on Snape's treatment of Harry. Can I suggest that Snape sees that Harry has great potential to be, not just swollen-headed, but a Death Eater or Dark Wizard in the future. When Dumbledore makes his famous remark in COS about choices, there is actually more than one way to interpret it. For Harry (as no doubt Dumbledore intended), it is reassurance that he has not made a bad choice, and he is not destined to repeat the pattern set by Riddle. But Dumbledore never says the converse, that Slytherin would have been a *bad* choice. Had Harry chosen Slytherin, it is the Hat's considered opinion that he would have 'done well'. Possibly it is the function, in part, of membership in Slytherin to provide the best possible opportunities *not* to turn out as a dark wizard. Yes, people who later turned out bad were preponderantly in Slytherin, it seems. But that doesn't mean that Slytherin made them bad, any more than the fact that a hospital is full of sick people means that hospitals make people sick. Of course, the teaching staff can't let on about this to the student body, or all the Slytherins (and their parents) would take umbrage. (Or it may be that there is a essential component of DADA built into all four choices, so that the main function of Hogwarts education is moral: all lessons and houses are DADA, so to speak.) Snape, Dumbledore, and the Sorting Hat have slightly different concerns over Harry. Dumbledore encourages the positive in Harry. I suggest that Snape, OTOH, sees the dangers and wants to avert them as far as possible. He may feel that Harry needs a good dose of Slytherin to reduce the chances that in later life he will make really bad choices. At times these imperatives may conflict. The Hat is more neutral: more challenging than Dumbledore, more positive than Snape, but at the same time perhaps seeing further than either. But what the Hat is up to takes us into a whole new area too big to start here. David From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Mon Nov 25 00:13:12 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 00:13:12 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Baiting the Sirius Apologists (Banging On The Dishwasher ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47098 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > Cindy stepped onto the wooden dance floor at the center of the > Tavern and slipped her wand from her uniform. She took careful aim > at the wall and began to write: > > ************ > > "What he really wanted (and it felt almost shameful to admit it to > himself) was someone like ? someone like a *parent*: an adult wizard > whose advice he could ask without feeling stupid, someone who cared > about him, who had had experience with Dark Magic . . . . And then > the solution came to him. It was so simple, so obvious, that he > couldn't believe it had taken so long ?- Sirius." > > ************ > "Isn't this canon strange? I mean, Sirius is supposed to be a good > guy. He was on Dumbledore's team, and he is probably good at > Transfiguration. But there's nothing to suggest he knows the first > thing about Dark Magic. We've never seen him perform any, and he > hasn't even conjured a Patronus, so far as we know. Yet here JKR is > hinting that Sirius is someone who 'had experience with Dark > Magic.' What could she be implying there, exactly? That Sirius is > *Ever So Evil,* do you think?" "Uhm..." Marina steps out from behind Dicey. Her Sirius Apologist robes are still freshly creased from the package, and the shiny motorcycle boots she bought specifically for stomping on Sociopath! Sirius claims are only a lilttle scuffed, but she's doing her best to look confident. "Can I take that one?" Dicentra and Cindy both nod. "Well," says Marina, "it seems to me that 'had experience with Dark Magic' is a rather vague phrase. It can mean 'experience working Dark Margic,' or it can mean 'experience dealing with Dark Magic.' Now, Sirius grew to adulthood during the first Vold War, when Dark Magic was running amock everywhere. Now, theoretically, I suppose it's possible that he spent the years between Hogwarts and Azkaban doing macrame or writing reports on cauldron bottoms or something; but in practice I think it's a pretty safe bet that he was out there fighting the good fight alongside James and Remus and the rest of the "Old Crowd." And if that' the case, then Sirius has had experience with Dark Magic in the same way that a homicide cop has had experience with murder." Marina smiles hopefully and looks to both Dicey and Cindy for approval. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Nov 25 01:09:00 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 01:09:00 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Disproving MD, what Quirrellmort knew Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47099 Abigail stares at the smoking gauntlet which Melody has tossed in front of her. >>"If, in fact, we find out in future books that Dumbledore has not beenscheming and planning and it is proven that he in fact has not helped bring about the rebodiment of Voldemort, then MD is disproven and there would be a big party thrown by Marina at the tavern I assureyou. MD's hands are completely tied to the fact that Dumbledore is a general of war and that he has made aggressive strategic plans to end the war. Did that answer your question?" << "Don't move, Abigail," says Pippin. Abigail blinks. Did Pippin appear out of nowhere? Or had she only been having a few words with Grey Wolf over in the corner? "I'll take care of it." Pippin eyes Bluesqueak and Melody, about to sip from her glass of mysterious ruby red liquid. But for some reason it seems to have clotted. "George!' she calls. "Make me a fresh one, will you?" "Right-o, Sangria, is it?" "That's right, love. Put it on my tab." Pippin turns her attention back to Melody and Bluesqueak. "So, you say that to disprove Dishwasher, we must disprove the arbitrary negative assertion that the books don't prove that Dumbledore didn't help bring about Voldemort's return? Fascinating! "But nobody *can* do that, you know. Not even JK Rowling. Abitrary negatives cannot be disproved. If I say, 'The cat's not in the bathtub', you can't disprove it without looking in the bathtub. At which point the statement is no longer arbitrary." Pipsqueak shrugs. "The assertions of Magic Dishwasher are not arbitrary, they are based on knowledge. As Melody says, Dumbledore is a general of war. We can make certain assertions based on our knowledge of generals, spies, and Dumbledore's capabilities." "Sorry, but proving that Dumbledore *could* have done something doesn't mean you've proved that he *did.* If you want us to accept your assertions, you're going to have to assume the burden of proof. And once you get past the obvious, that Dumbledore had spies and so did Voldemort, there's very little specific evidence and an awful lot of generalizing. And going on your, er, general knowledge of generals is pretty shaky, because Dumbledore's hardly a typical case." " Real World generals and spymasters behave the way they do because they are appointed to their positions by people like Fudge. If they start developing inconvenient moral reservations then they are removed from office. Fudge is threatening to do just that, if you remember. But we've seen that the threat is hollow. Nothing Fudge can do is going to displace Dumbledore as far as the Old Crowd is concerned. "So Dumbledore is at liberty to reject the quasi-Utilitarian ethic which Grey Wolf ascribes to him, no matter how popular it is among politicians, bureaucrats and their employees. "Utilitarianism? I don't recall Grey Wolf using that term," says Pipsqueak. "Well, Utilitarianism is an ethical theory which says that all action should be directed toward achieving the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people. We can make a pretty good argument that Dumbledore is not a Utilitarian, by the way. He teaches Harry that in many cases what would make people happiest would actually be bad for them. However, Grey Wolf seems to be saying that what Dumbledore seeks is to bring about the greatest *good* for the greatest number. As an ethical theory, that's tautological. We can't tell whether an action is good or bad by weighing it against the theory, because the theory doesn't tell us what goodness is. "But Dishwasher!Dumbledore's actions are moral," says Pip!Squeak, "because they are directed at the Downfall of Voldemort." "Oh well," says Pippin, "If you want to be relatavistic--" >>>""I think it's always been our detractors who regard Dishwasher!Dumbledore as morally relativist, actually," says the Pipsqueak, "I think that to be making pragmatic decisions, hard choices, assessments that these particular means are justified by this particular end, Dumbledore would need a very solid moral core indeed."<<< "But that's relativism in a nutshell," says Pippin. " 'Relatavism: a theory that conceptions of truth and moral values are not absolute but are relative to the persons or groups holding them.' Dishwasher!Dumbledore has allowed or arranged Voldemort's return, which is hardly an absolute good, but is good only because Dumbledore, judging by the standards of his society, thinks it would be. Pettigrew did the same thing, but because he had no social good in mind, it was evil. " "And you know, I think you are going to have to choose between Spy!Snape and Dishwasher!Snape. Because if Dishwasher holds, then Voldmort has lots of other faithful DE's, whom he can insert into Hogwarts as easily as he did young Barty. If Snape shows up, Dishwasher!Voldemort won't need to send him back to Hogwarts to spy on Dumbledore. Especially not if Snape brought Dumbledore' s head with him. He might see fit to keep Snape around for some other reason, to work on potions or because," Pippin pauses here and looks significantly at Wendy, "Snape gives good hem. "But Snape the Spy is toast. Surplus to requirements. Kill the spare!" "But even if you don't believe in Dishwasher! Dumbledore, Snape the spy is toast." says another voice. Barb, suprised to find her self a in a TBAY scenario, looks around in wonder (post 46968) >> we mustn't forget that Voldemort was possessing Quirrell's body during Harry's first year, and Snape and Quirrell had numerous run-ins. Voldemort knew, whenhe was in Quirrell's body, that Snape was on Dumbledore's side and trying to prevent Quirrell from getting the stone. He was there for every encounter between the two professors, and he was aware (as Quirrell was) that Snape was using a counter-jinx to save Harry during the Quidditch match."<< "Ah," says Pippin, but *Quirrell* never told Snape that he was serving Voldemort." "Ignorance is a lame excuse," snaps Barb. "I can't see Voldemort falling for it." "Oh, Snape has a much better excuse than that. He doesn't need to say that he thought Quirrell was trying to get the Stone for himself. I see it this way -- A cloudy haze appears in the middle of the room, and everyone scoots out of the way as the semi-transparent figures of Severus Snape and Lord Voldemort appear in the center of it. Snape grovels at Voldemort's feet: 'My Lord, had you but revealed yourself to me, had I but known, I would have done all that I could to aid you. --" 'I lose patience, Severus. Surely you didn't believe that a young, inexperienced wizard like Quirrell could have broken into Gringotts or hexed a Nimbus 2000 all by himself." "Of course not, my Lord. Only a very powerful wizard could have done such things. Only you--and one other. He has set tests for me before. " Voldemort manages to look skeptical, though this is difficult without eyebrows. "You thought *Dumbledore* would turn a troll loose. In his own school?" "But no one was harmed, my Lord. Not even the Mudblood girl. Far easier to believe that the beast was charmed than that three first-years could defeat a wild Mountain Troll without so much as a scratch. It did occur to me that the giant canine guarding the Stone was also a sham, but--" Snape glances down at his leg, "it turned out to be a somewhat more formidable foe. My Lord, I beg you to believe me. If I could have but penetrated the Stone's defences, I would have brought it to you myself, whatever the danger. But alas! it was held within a Mirror and as you know--" "Quite, Severus. A little joke of Dumbledore's, that. Very amusing. Still, that does not explain your eagerness to defend Harry Potter." "But my Lord, if it was a test...I couldn't very well let Dumbledore think I was prepared to let Potter die, now could I? " "You think Dumbledore would risk precious Potter's life and subject him to Dark Magic simply to prove your loyalty?" "Quirrell used Dark Magic on a broom, not on Potter himself. And if it were but a test...I need hardly tell you that a fall from a broomstick wouldn't ordinarily be fatal. Not to one of us. It wouldn't be enough to kill Longbottom, much less Potter himself." "I had no choice, my Lord, but to do as I did. Not if I was to remain at Hogwarts. How I wish that I could have found a way to leave it. You don't know how much I longed to seek for for you myself! But that would have been folly, for though Dumbledore trusts me, the Aurors do not. I did not think you would wish me to lead them to you. I have said enough. Do as you will." Pippin From abigailnus at yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 02:09:03 2002 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 02:09:03 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Banging On The Dishwasher Some More In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47100 After a few minutes of stunned silence, Abigail starts trying to pull it together. There she was, having what might be termed a calm conversation with Melody and Pip (it certainly seems calm now) when Cindy came over and... The actual events seem to be blurred in Abigail's memory. She remembers that all of a sudden the table wasn't where it was supposed to be, and food started flying all over the place, and then George was there and now she has a large guacamole stain on the front of her shirt that certainly wasn't there before, but the actual sequence of events is aparently too much for her fragile psyche to directly address. She absent-mindedly combs spent ketchup packets from her hair, and observes her two companions. Melody seems to be catatonic, one hand still reaching for her mouth, grasping a potato chip that has long since been crushed into flakes. Pip!Squeak appears to be handling things a bit better - but then that's only to be expected. As the originator of MAGIC DISHWASHER, she's no doubt come across some rabid oposition in the past. Although perhaps not quite so literally. With George's help, Abigail rights their fallen table, which is now unfortunately wobbling rather seriously. George goes to get something to wedge under the leg, and comes back with a bottle of brandy and three glasses (or is it snifters?). Abigail has heard strange things about TBAY brandy, but figures she could really use a pick-me-up, so she downs a shot (is there such a thing as a brandy shot?). The smell seems to have a reviving effect on Pip, she clutches unthinkingly at the proferred glass, downs it in one gulp, and shudders violently. Only then do her eyes unglass as she returns to the land of the living. "What was that?" She gasps. Abigail brushes some ashes from the incinerated flower arrangement off Pip's robes. "I don't think," she says finally, "that Cindy will be purchasing a MAGIC DISHWASHER any time soon." "My God..." Pip!Squeak clutches at her head. "The Paddle! The dreaded Paddle!" "Actually, I don't think she had her paddle with her this time, so you should count your blessings." Pip gives Abigail a baleful look. "I suppose you're very pleased about this. Cindy came down completely on your side." Abigail attempts a nonchallant shrug. "I was trying to put it a bit more gently, but I guess that's not always a good thing. Do you remember exactly what she said?" Abigail rummages through the still-petrified Melody's belonging and finds her magical voice-recorder, which was luckily active throughout Cindy's... outburst. She fast-forwards through quite a lot of screaming, ripping, crashing, and wet 'splat!' noises before she comes to the part she was looking for. > "Besides, Abigail has a point. The cornerstone of MAGICDISHWASHER > seems to be that Albus Dumbledore is living a lie! Any bit of canon > that support MD is embraced, but any canon that contradicts MD can > be dismissed as Master Misdirection, all carefully orchestrated as > part of a master plan to restore Voldemort. Even if Dumbledore were > to face down Voldemort and explicitly disavow MD, the MD crowd would > just say he was lying. > > "That means the theory has no *tension* -- no inherent risk! If it > can never be disproved, it can't be exciting. So if the MD > adherents say that their theory is totally incontrovertible, > well . . . then why even bother to analyze it? So I have a > question, one simple question: Can any of the MD adherents tell us > what it would take to *disprove* the theory?" Pip sniffs. "I think I've mentioned several times that a direct disavowal of any DISHWASHER type activities on Dumbledore's part would disprove the theory quite nicely." "So you have," Replies Abigail half-heartedly, as she tries to extract mixed nuts from her backpack, "I suppose Cindy and I are just suspicious by nature - we rather distrust that, if the time ever comes, some enterprising MD supporter won't be able to swing the canon his way. Anyway, you know my feelings - the fact that a theory hasn't been disproven is not proof of its truth." "DISHWASHER is like LOLLIPOPS." Pip is getting her strengh back, and getting into the swing of things. "It's a backstory theory. Backstories are things worked out by the author that may never actually make it into the published novels. DISHWASHER may well be true in JKR's mind, and she just won't get around to expressing it." "I find it hard to believe that such a radical upheaval of the entire world as it has been presented to Harry - and to us - could just be glossed over because JKR needs more page space for Quidditch matches." Abigail points out. "But leaving that aside, even if that were true it wouldn't matter. If it stays in JKR's head then that's the only place in which MD is true (if it is true) - if it's not in the books, it's not canon." "That's a metathinking argument." Pip says. Abigail shrugs. "I metathink." She says. "And so do you, apparently, when it's convenient." Just then Melody unfreezes. She smiles angelically, apparently unaware of the mayhem that's taken place all around her. "Did I doze off?" She asks. "I didn't mean to, I was just waiting for Abigail to answer me and then..." Her brow furrows suddenly, but she shakes off the bad thought and turns back to the other two women at the table just in time to miss Abigail mouthing 'hystrical amenesia' at Pip!Sqyeak and Pip's sage nod. "Anyway, I heard you talking about disproving MAGIC DISHWASHER, and gracious Abigail, there are *a lot* of theories out there that could stay a theory. Just because it has not been proven does not mean it does not exist. The canon that backs those ady, and the theory is just a different way to read the text. Now whether we think it is a good theory or not is left for us to decide. The theory remains just a theory without the backing of the next three books and does not become proven *fact*." She shifts uncomfotably in her seat. "Why is my lap full of cheese dip?" "Just a little mishap." Abigail says hurriedly. "Anyway, we have slightly different opinions on what a theory is, or rather what it can be by the end of book 7. Right now, there are practically as many theories as there are list members, and naturally they can't all be true - if only because half of them directly contradict the other half. What we have here, ladies, in other words," Abigail paused for dramatic effect, "is a classic case of Schroedinger's Theory." Pip!Squeak and Melody exhange glances. Just out of Abigail's field of vision, Melody mouths 'delusions of grandeur'. Pip nods sagely. "Right now, all these lovely thoeries exist in an uncertain state." Abigail continues, oblivious, "inasmuch as they are all canonically sound, they are all both true and false, and will remain in this dual state until such time as canon directly addresses them - either to proove or refute - or until the series ends and there is no more new canon, in which case the remaining theories will collapse upon themselves as if they never existed. And that," Abigail points an accusing finger at Melody, "is why I call staying in the Safe House not playing fair. Hurricane Jo! As if that were the worst of our problems! Why, every sailor in the BAY knows in the very depths of their hearts that some day the decks may vanish beneath their feet, and they'll have to swim to shore as best they can. So you see, I can't accept that MAGIC DISHWASHER will remain 'just a theory' even after book 7 ends - it should either be proven or abandoned." "Book 7." Repeats Pip!Squeak in a leaden voice. "You've had us here talking back and forth about something that will happen at the end of book 7. Why, woman, we'll all be lucky to be *alive* when book 7 comes out!" Abigail is stumped. "Well, this isn't even the discussion that I wanted to get into!" She cries, exasperated. "I just made an offhand remark about my own personal problems with MAGIC DISHWASHER, and why I didn't enjoy arguing against it because I felt that the ground was constantly being pulled up beneath me, and next thing I know I'm yanked into this two-bit saloon with a barman who won't give me credit and a lunatic who throws onion rings at me even though she agrees with what I said! The discussion that I really care about is about MD itself, not about the laws of civilized theorizing. Melody, you never did deal with my problems with Dumbledore's logistics." "Yes I did!" Melody cries, indignant, which is a good thing because that 'lunatic throwing onion rings' line was starting to jog her memory. "I explained how even though Dumbledore leaves a great deal to chance when he tries to orchestrate Sirius's escape - well, all the best laid plans are subject to a world of possiblities..." "Please," Abigail interjects, "I said that myself. I said that the events of PoA, and specifically what goes down in the Shrieking Shack and the manner of Peter's escape, are clearly a contingency plan. There's just no way Dumbledore could have arranged all those variables coming together - he just pulls together whatever resources are at his disposal to put himself back on track. That makes sense to me. My problem is, what was his original plan? MAGIC DISHWASHER talks a lot about Plan B, and even C and D eventually, but what about Plan A? What was Dumbledore's original game plan before Sirius went and ruined everything? I said that at this point, no such plan emerges from MD, and as result the theory looks more like shoving the past into a convenient mold. Neither of you responded to that claim." Melody and Pip!Squeak exchange guilty glances, and Pip decides that it might be wise to change the subject. "Going back to the two 'traits' that you claim are so obvious in Dishwasher!Dumbledore, you claimed that D!D put the ends before the means. You know, it's amazing how many people will smugly say `that sounds like putting the ends before the means' to me, and think that this immediately implies that the person concerned will condone having babies for lunch if it's for a good enough reason." "That," Abigail points out, "is a blatant use of an extreme case in an attempt to disqualify the far more moderate suggestion that I made. I never suggested that Dumbledore no longer has a line he won't cross. Well, maybe I did. But what I *meant* to say was that wherever his line used to be before his actions brought about people's deaths, it has been pushed much further into territory that the old Dumbledore (if such a creature ever existed) would consider immoral. You're right, of course, when you say that for most people, there's still a question of which ends and which means, but since in this case the ends are s aving the world, I suspect that Dumbledore is willing to compromise his principles quite a bit. And that's not my argument -that's yours." "Well," Pip!Squeak says, moving around in her chair, trying to find a comfortable position, which is accompanied by the sounds of cracking potato chips. "Voldemort is a killer. Voldemort has no need whatsoever to kill Cedric. He could have had Pettigrew use Snape's rope trick, tied Cedric up, and had him completely unable to help Harry in any way. But he just orders `the spare' killed..." "Oy Vey!" Abigail cries. She leaps from her chair, and lands on her knees on the floor before Pip, oblivious to the beer staining her pants. Pressing her hands together in the universal gesture of pleading, she continues, "I beg of you, no more! If I listen to the argument of why it's right for Dumbledore to accept Cedric, Frank and Bertha's deaths, why those deaths are in fact the lesser evil in the long run, and why Dumbledore still better than Voldemort one more time I will go meshugge and start speaking entirely in Yiddish. You see, it's already starting to happen! This is at least the fourth time since this discussion started the the entire argument has been repeated, and I already knew it before the first time! I get it, I really do get it. I = just don't get why you think this argument at all contradicts my assertion that D!D would accept Karkarof's death as a necessary evil." Pip!Squeak is nonplussed. "Um, you see..." She starts. "Dumbledore has a choice: he can look at the deaths of Bertha Jorkins, Frank Bryce and Cedric Diggory and say `If it wasn't for my plan you might not have died, but I am trying to give your deaths some point, trying to destroy the evil that killed you'. Or he can look at the other, unnamed deaths that Voldemort has caused and (given Voldemort's nature *will* cause) and say ? `I have done nothing about this at all. Sorry. Personally I don't want to get my hands dirty. It's unfortunate you died, of course, but it wasn't as a direct result of any plan of mine, so it's nothing to do with me.' You cannot avoid moral choices by inaction. Inaction is itself a moral choice." Abigail gets up and gives Pip and quizzical look. "I'm sorry, maybe I missed something there. How did that last part at all contradict my point? It seems to me that we've come to a point where it's all a matter of degree. I believe that, having already indirectly brought about the deaths of innocents, Dumbledore wouldn't balk at causing the death of a guilty man. And there is historical precedent - although not a very specific one - I don't imagine that the French Resistance ever felt too bad about killing someone who wasn't an enemy when it was absolutely necessary, or for that matter, any underground resistance group. You obviosly think that this murder would be going too far. Frankly I think that weakens MAGIC DISHWASHER - you can't seem to decide just who your Dumbledore is." Pip!Squeak is about to respond when out of the crowd comes Eileen, headed for Abigail. "Oh hello, everybody, I just came to say hello and that you can sign me up for Assasin!Snape only under MAGIC DISHWASHER as well, and you've picked out all my problems with MAGIC DISHWASHER - I mean, what a wonderful time to launch the apocalypse, with Fudge as Minister for Magic! (1)" Eileen pauses, surprised by the expression on Abigail's face. "What? What did I say?" Abigail returns to her two companions. "Hold the presses, girls. We haven't ironed all our issues out yet. I have a new objection to MAGIC DISHWASHER, and this one is based in canon!" "Do tell." Drawls Pip!Squeak, not noticably terrified. "This harkens right back to early PS - Harry's first meeting with Hagrid to be exact. I don't have the exact canon in front of me, but I'm sure you can all remember the line - Dumbledore was offered the position of Minister of Magic and turned it down to stay at Hogwarts, so Fudge got it instead. Now," Abigail continues, her eyes glittering, "If Dumbledore has indeed been planning for Voldemort's return since the end of VWI, why would he turn that position down? He could have instituted the changes that he now has to beg a bungler like Fudge to carry out. He could have removed the Dementors from Azkaban, given all the prisoners there a fair trial, not shoved Moody out of the Ministry like an old handbag, sent envoys to the giants. He could have been actively preparing the Wizarding World for Voldemort's return for the past 15 years, but instead he's been teaching. Does that not suggest that his mind was not constantly bent on Voldemort and ways to defeat him?" "You realize you are taking only Hagrid's word for this?" Pip points out. "Hagrid of 'all dark wizards came from Slyetheryn' fame. Hardly the most reliable source." "Hagrid is prone to exageration." Abigail admits. "But not lies. While it may be true that Fudge doesn't pelt Dumbledore with owls every day asking for advice, to say that Dumbledore was offered the Minister of Magic position when he clearly wasn't is an outright lie. Not only is Hagrid not prone to them - he isn't very good at them. No, I believe Hagrid about this. Plus, there's the fact that Dumbledore found it believable that he was called to the MoM at the end of PS (and whether this was part of his plan to let HRH go for the Stone is beside the point - McGonagall didn't think it was out of the ordinary either." "Why couldn't Dumbledore have stayed in Hogwarts in order to teach Harry?" Asks Melody. "He would have wanted to personally train his new soldier." "Dumbledore had ten years between Voldy's fall and Harry's arrival at school." Answers Abigail. "He could have taken the Minister job in the interim and gone back to Hogwarts when Harry came to school. I'm sure no-one would have dared to refuse him the position if he wanted it." Abigail smiles and gets up. "I think I've earned a drink with that one. I may even pay for it this time. Another round, everyone?" Abigail Who would like to know why she only gets involved in interesting discussions on this group when she is swamped with work at school, and why she can't seem to write a post at any time other than 3 in the morning. (1) Written in a private e-mail From dorigen at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 01:29:03 2002 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 01:29:03 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid and the missing 24 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47101 "sayse22" wants to know: >Why was Hagrid entrusted with caring for Harry after Voldemort had >killed >Lily and James? We know Hagrid is trustworthy, but he's not (so far as we >know) a very powerful wizard. I think it's because everyone except Dumbledore underestimates Hagrid, but especially the Death Eaters. The Death Eaters and their offspring completely disregard Hagrid as a clueless buffoon, whose only use is as a weapon against Dumbledore. This blind spot of theirs enables Hagrid to "hide in plain sight" and is why, as he says, Dumbledore trusts him with important tasks. While others were mopping up Death Eaters and performing other high-profile tasks, Hagrid was looking after Harry and delivering him to safety, completely unhindered. The same thing happened when Hagrid went to Gringotts and carried the Sorcerer's Stone back to Hogwarts right under the nose of Voldemort/Quirrel. And he waltzes through Knockturn Alley as if he owns the place, without, apparently, arousing any suspicions despite the fact that Lucius Malfoy undoubtedly has eyes and ears there -- and I'll bet he, and therefore Dumbledore, knows a lot about that place as a result. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Nov 25 02:50:12 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:50:12 -0600 Subject: New Snape/Vodemort Musings References: Message-ID: <3DE18FE4.F815D356@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47102 Now, we all know that Snape was a spy, plus Voldemort may have figured this out via Turban/Voldemort or Crouch Trial, but when he turned spy, was he still 'Snape'? Could he in fact be returning to spying as 'someone else'? What do you mean, you ask? Okay, Snape is a GREAT potions master. We see a lot of use of Polyjuice potions, with even Dumbledore fooled by it. So, what happens if he is a DE who is is 'someone else' to Voldemort? Perhaps masquarading as someone else who was killed or disappeared? I for one don't believe that Voldemort can read minds, just body language perhaps. Mayeb he can just smell fear.. Snape is very good at masking his feelings when he wants to and could be able to pull it off, you know. Jazmyn From catlady at wicca.net Mon Nov 25 03:09:29 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 03:09:29 -0000 Subject: TMR-Voldemort/TBAY notes / Sirius-Cyrus / Sorting Neville /Hogwarts Flushing Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47103 Thanks to Audra and Judy for answering my questions about sociopaths. Judy Serenity wrote: << Perhaps an inability to delay gratification is why Voldemort tortured Harry in the Graveyard, when it would have been safer to just kill him outright? >> The typical Evil Overlord scenario . << "Dumbledore's head on platter" [someone please generate an acronym for this!] >> In chat, I asked if anyone could come up with something better than DHOP "Dumbledore's Head On a Platter". I hoped for something that would come out CHOP. Constance_Vigilance offered "How about "Cranium of Headmaster On a Platter"?" Marina wrote: << We do know that the older Riddles cast Tom's pregnant mother out of the family when they discovered she was a witch, with no concert for what would happen to her or her baby. Sounds like a distinct lack of empathy to me. >> I think it's entirely possible that Tom Riddle Sr's parents never knew about Tom Jr or Tom Jr's mother. I don't think Master Tom and Miss Witchy ever WERE married (see below), but even if they were, they could have been married at a registry office in a distant town and lived in that town, and Tom never told his parents that they were married, and never told his parents that he had gotten divorced. I have this uncanonical obsession that TMR believed the story of his parents, as he told it to Harry, that it had been told to him that way, but actually it was not the true story. I think that actually TMR's parents were never married in the first place. It was the 1920s; the young (maybe 19 years old) daughter of the only wizarding family in the village bobbed her hair, wore indecently short knee-length skirts, and had a head full of crazy ideals about socialism and pacifism and free love and wizard-Muggle harmony. And she actually believed that the handsome Muggle young man, just a couple of years older than her, loved her as much as she loved him... A notion painfully disproved when she told him she was pregnant... she expected he would offer to marry her, or to go and live in sin with her in London or Italy... but he told her that it was all her problem and none of his own. (That's a lack of empathy, but a very common one, historically.) She had to go tell her parents that their old-fashioned, prudish, intolerant ideas had been right after all... She did die in childbirth, of a broken heart, and her parents raised the baby for his first few years, gave him the name his late mother had chosen against their advice, and told him of his illustrious descent (through them) from Salazar Slytherin, and told him this euphemised story of why he had no parents. They died with no wizarding friends or relatives (I speculate that they were killed by young Tommy's unconscious magic when he was throwing a tantrum about something), so he was taken by Muggle villagers to a Muggle orphanage. I love the irony of thinking that his crusade against Muggles was based entirely on a false idea, and it would have been more relevant for him to crusade against pre-marital sex. Abigail: << Right now, there are practically as many theories as there are list members, >> Not twice as many theories as list members? I have at least a dozen mutually contradictory theories myself.... Pippin: << If I say, 'The cat's not in the bathtub', you can't disprove it without looking in the bathtub. At which point the statement is no longer arbitrary." >> If you say, "The cat's not in the bathtub", you are absolutely right. The cats are all right here on the bed with me. I can see all of them. << We can make a pretty good argument that Dumbledore is not a Utilitarian, by the way. He teaches Harry that in many cases what would make people happiest would actually be bad for them. >> NO. He told Harry that what many people WANT MOST, money and long life, are just the things that are worst for them. You are jumping to the idea that what people WANT MOST is what makes them HAPPIEST, and a hell of a lot of non-philosophical Muggles have noticed that sometimes something that you intensely wanted turns out to be a big disappointment (especially if the reason you wanted it much was because of the advertising ). Anyway, there's room for enough argument about what 'happy' means to make Utilitarianism as worthless as any other theories. For example, my friend keeps telling me that Plato said that moral virtue is a prerequisite for happiness, so that children and other people not spiritually evolved enough to really understand virtue can never be truly happy, no matter how much fun and contentment they have and how happy they think they are. SophineClaire: << looks forward to the third movie mainly to hear how Sirius' name is really pronounced: Is it `Serious' or `Sigh-Russ' ala Thirteen Ghosts (where it is spelt as Cyrus)). >> Cyrus is a different name than Sirius. Cyrus (Kurush in Persian) was the Persian Emperor who conquered the entire Middle East and allowed the Jews to return to Israel from the "Babylonian Captivity". Sirius is the name of the Dog Star, in Canis Major, and the name is derived from a Greek word meaning "scorching". (So even tho' JKR thought she was naming him for being a dog, she was really naming him for being a hottie.) Janet Anderson: << Neville Longbottom is in Gryffindor because he 1) has courage, the first attribute of a Gryffindor person and 2) in all probability asked to be there, the same way Harry did. >> "The hat took a long time to decide with Neville." I think it took the Hat a long time to persuade Neville to accept the Gryffindor placement he so desperately wanted; Neville surely would have kept arguing that he didn't deserve Gryffindor, he should be in Hufflepuff (poor Hufflepuff). Maybe the Hat finally said: "No rule-biding Hufflepuff would ever argue with an authority like Me. Your rebelliousness just proves you're a GRYFFINDOR!" Jazmyn: << (why would their plumbing empty into the lake?? Do the monsters there eat human waste or is the lake really disgusting?) >> I believe that their plumbing empties into the lake via a magical cleaning spell that transmutes all the waste products into pretty flowers or such, but I fear that that mgical cleaning spell was put in place by the lake's inhabitants, such as the merpeople, rather than by the castle's occupants. Even tho' I believe that wizards have had indoor plumbing with hot and cold running water and flush toilets for over nine thousand years, I have no evidence that medieval wizards had a higher concern for clean drinking water and pleasant smelling surroundings than their Muggle contemporaries did. From pennylin at swbell.net Mon Nov 25 03:33:50 2002 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 21:33:50 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and the Prank...some thoughts References: Message-ID: <020401c29433$78dabfc0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 47104 Hi -- > I said: > > There's also just so much we don't know about the Prank. > > What did Snape say or do to motivate Sirius to > > tell him how to follow them? What were > > Sirius' intentions? > > ....we do *NOT* know what Snape did to > > motivate the Prank. We can > > conjecture from now till sundown, > > but until OOP or Books 6 or 7 clues > > us in, we're only guessing. Judy replied: > This isn't my reading of the canon. I think we *do* know what Snape was doing -- he was sneaking around, trying to get the Marauders introuble. He was also being a slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid. And that's it. Sirius has had two opportunities in canon to say what Snape did to deserve the Prank, and that's all he's come up with. << No. We know what Sirius *said* flippantly in the Shrieking Shack while he was under extreme physical and emotional distress, corroborated to some small extent by his later statements in the cave in GoF. Is Sirius to be believed here? Is he telling the whole truth? Does he even know the full truth of what Snape was up to? Does he have reasons why he might not want to reveal the whole truth to Harry and his friends? You can't trust these characters at face value, you know. Snape was apparently "always" sneaking around and trying to get them into trouble. Okay. So, what exactly caused Sirius to snap that particular time? Presumably he'd had prior opportunities to let Snape in on the little secret but had gritted his teeth and resisted the temptation. Why *then* -- what was it about that *particular* moment in time that led Sirius to play the "Prank"? My theory is that there were extraordinary circumstances relating to the Prank and that, for plot reasons, we the readers can't know the full story at this time. Or, that we just *don't* know the full story at this time .... whether JKR could have been more revealing about the details earlier in the series is only a judgment we'll be able to make with hindsight after all. Pippin argued: <<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm afraid I'm not following how this point of canon suggests what might have motivated Sirius to play the Prank? I agree that it certainly suggests that, whatever Snape's reputation in the eyes of the Marauders, Dumbledore thought him to be an upstanding citizen during his Hogwarts years. Are you suggesting that Snape, suspicious of the Marauders' involvement with the Dark Side, said something accusatory to Sirius who then snapped & impulsively pulled the Prank? That's possible ... but again, it's just another conjecture or theory. My point is that we don't *know* yet from *canon* what motivated the Prank, so how can we assess fault or blame in the situation without the full story? I guess my other point is that I doubt that Sirius pulled the Prank in a vacuum ... there must have been some extraordinary *trigger* to set off the chain of events. So, I'm guessing Our Man Snape is not as entirely the pitiable victim that some people would like to paint him. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gandharvika at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 03:35:46 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 03:35:46 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Dudley Dursley Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47105 Dudley Dursley (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Piggies_ by the Beatles) >From the _White Album_ Here is a Midi: http://www.op.net/~wgs/homemusc.htm Dedicated to Frankie and her pet theory, RATS BE DISEASES (Removing A Tail Shouldn't Be Enough: Dudley Is Still Enpigged After Spell-Enduced Shapeshift) We all know that Dudley Dursley's wide as he is tall Like a pig is Dudley Dursley, can we all recall Exactly how it all came to happen? Vernon Dursley can't stand Hogwarts, said Harry'd have to stay Hagrid he tracked down the the Dursleys, found their hideaway Had something to say about their behavior Hagrid was so mad that he yelled When Vernon insulted Dumbledore Hagrid cast a magical spell Gave Dudley a piggie tail Later Harry's friends the Weasleys came to Privet Drive Dudley was so scared of magic, tried so hard to hide Clutching his back side, afraid of Arthur _Gail B...who wishes she could give you something better to listen to besides the Midi because the original is always better and also because at the end of the original there are pigs snorting in the background, which would make this filk even more appropriate :)> Dudley Dursley (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Piggies_ by the Beatles) >From the _White Album_ Here is a Midi: http://www.op.net/~wgs/homemusc.htm Dedicated to Frankie and her RATS room We all know that Dudley Dursley's wide as he is tall Like a pig is Dudley Dursley, can we all recall Exactly how it all came to happen? Vernon Dursley can't stand Hogwarts, said Harry'd have to stay Hagrid he tracked down the the Dursley's, found their hideaway Had something to say about their behavior Hagrid was so mad that he yelled When Vernon insulted Dumbledore Hagrid cast a magical spell Gave Dudley a piggie tail Later Harry's friends the Weasleys came to Privet Drive Dudley was so scared of magic, tried so hard to hide Clutching his back side, afraid of Arthur _Gail B...who wishes she could give you something better to listen to besides the Midi because the original is always better and also because the original has pigs snorting in the background, which makes this song even more appropriate. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Malady579 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 04:33:15 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 04:33:15 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Dishwasher huddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47106 "Dumbledore had ten years between Voldy's fall and Harry's arrival at school," answered Abigail. "He could have taken the Minister job in the interim and gone back to Hogwarts when Harry came to school. I'm sure no-one would have dared to refuse him the position if he wanted it." Abigail smiled and got up. "I think I've earned a drink with that one. I may even pay for it this time. Another round, everyone?" Abigail waltzed off to the bar leaving Pip and Mel still at the disaster zone. The table may have been straightened, but the floor was completely a Pollack painting. Pip looked over at Melody. The girl was quite shaken and still frozen with chips and dip smeared on her hands. "Mel, you all right?" Pip asked. Melody's lower lip started quivering. Her eyes starting to water. She looked up at Pip barely being able to control her voice, "Pip...Cindy...yelled...the table...food everywhere...she yelled...threw that burning flower...she yelled *so* loud. I cannot take yelling Pip. This is too hard." Melody started shaking and tears streamed down her face. "There, there Mel. You'll get use to it," Pip affirmed taking her napkin and cleaning Mel's hands. "Cindy did not mean to be so forceful. She is just frustrated and needed to let out her aggressions." "But why on *our* theory?" Melody blubbered. "Probably because we cause the most blood to boil. You see, ours is a 'secret background conspiracy' theory. A theory that has not been spoken of in the text, so it is not subject to the direct counter argument of the text to date. That can be frustrating to the opposing sides, don't you think?" Pip explained finishing cleaning Mel's hands and folding the napkin on the table. "I guess," Melody said still pouting. "But why *must* they disprove us? Why are they so *bent* in destroying MD? I see other theories slide with little canon support just because they are cute or charming. No one throws tables at my little watch theory even though it may or may not be proven in the future text. What is so bad about us that we cannot even be allowed our peace?" Pip leaned back in her chair. "I guess because we make Dumbledore something they never saw him to be." "What? Human?" Melody sniffed. "Partly, yes," Pip said pulling out her recorder and checking for damages. "Here, listen to this." -- "Cindy, haven't you figured out the point of MD yet?" George rolled his eyes. "It's not *supposed* to be a real theory. That's the whole point! Pip came up with a theory that *no one* -- and I mean no one ?- can possibly understand! -- "Um, wait. Not that one," Pip said banging her hand of the recorder. Melody's eyes welled up again. "I guess we (sniff) are NO ONE," she cried as she dropping her head in her hands. "Mel, I am sure she was joking," said a deep voice that just joined the table. Melody looked up in mid tears. "You think Grey?" Grey nodded quietly and looked gravely at the two women. "Things are not always what they seem." Grey placed three glasses down on the table and pulled up a clean chair. "Here I brought you some more water and Pip some more tea." "And Cindy can be a bit melodramatic at times," Pip nodded still fiddling with her recorder. "But George said that," Melody pointed out cupping the glass in her still shaking hands. "Well then, George is a Snapetheory. Snape is a spy. The Sphinx riddle said spies lie. So then George could of been lying." Grey said with a grin. "Really, though it doesn't matter. You'll get use to it all." Hitting the record hard on top, Pip exclaimed, "There we are. Ok. Detractors' problem with creating a human Dumbledore." --- Cindy The cornerstone of MAGICDISHWASHER seems to be that Albus Dumbledore is living a lie! Any bit of canon that support MD is embraced, but any canon that contradicts MD can be dismissed as Master Misdirection, all carefully orchestrated as part of a master plan to restore Voldemort. Even if Dumbledore were to face down Voldemort and explicitly disavow MD, the MD crowd would just say he was lying. --- "Would we do that?" Melody asked. "Dumbledore says clearly in PS/SS that he will not lie. Why can we use that defense when it is easily shot down?" "We wouldn't, but it seems some feel that when Dumbledore does not share the whole truth he is in fact lying. But to date, Dumbledore has never lied, and we never claim him to. He does withholds information, but he never lies." Pip explained removing the tea bag from her pint. In fact, the only times we say the quoted bit of canon is a lie is in reference to Voldemort. *He* has no problems with lying." Grey added. Melody sipped her water a moment then asked, "Then what is Cindy talking about misdirection? Does she mean Dumbledore is trying to misdirect Voldemort or the other way around?" Pip shrugged. "Both really." "And what is wrong with that?" Melody asked not wanting to think that much right now, but at least she had stopped shaking. Pip answered, "Because if Dumbledore is misdirecting people, he is misleading them. Bad side and good side. The detractors find this to be a lie." "I don't understand why. Seems the WW knew Dumbledore was fighting Voldemort before his fall. They even knew Dumbledore fought Grindelwald. Why would they be under the presumption that he was not doing it now?" Melody asked. "Kind of the reason why I don't understand why it is a problem that Dumbledore misleads. Seems it is understood he is in the position to do that being that he is the known leader of the opposition. It is his job to misdirect the bad guy. Just the WW does not know the bad guy is back, but when he is, Dumbledore *does* tell them." Grey sighed. "Should you tell her Pip, or should I?" "I'll do it," Pip said placing her cup on the table. "You see Mel. It does not matter what we say really. We will convince *no one* that this theory is valid. No matter how many times we repeat ourselves -- no matter how many times we explain the circumstances -- they just will not believe us. They don't want to believe in a Dumbledore that is not a good old grandfather patting his favorite grandson Harry on the head. We will *never* be able to convince them otherwise." Melody looked down at her glass. "Y'all convinced me," she said quietly. Pip and Grey smiled. "Quite right," Grey nodded. "So should we give up and not still look for another listee that could be broken from the cave and shown the light instead of all these shadows?" Melody said looking up mischieviously. She loves allegory. Pip sat back. "That is what we can only hope." "Then to the fight," Melody called raising her glass. "To the fight," Pip and Grey chimed in as they all clicked glasses. Looking to her left, Melody saw Pippin and Abigail standing there with books bouncing in their hands and a menacing glare in their eyes. "I don't think I am stable enough at the moment to take both of them on," Melody said cautiously. Grey knocked back his drink and brought it back down on the table. "Ah, don't worry. We'll tend to them, or they'll just go away. Either way, MD is still a theory and there is nothing they can do right now to destroy it that they haven't already tried." Pip smiled. "You rest and jump in when you are ready. They'll still be here. They'll just grow a little impatient." "Thanks guys," Melody said feeling much stronger in the fact she was not alone. Melody From editor at texas.net Mon Nov 25 05:32:18 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 23:32:18 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Snape/Vodemort Musings References: <3DE18FE4.F815D356@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <002a01c29444$06658a40$5f04a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 47107 Jazzmyn theorized: > Now, we all know that Snape was a spy, plus Voldemort may have figured > this out via Turban/Voldemort or Crouch Trial, but when he turned spy, > was he still 'Snape'? Could he in fact be returning to spying as > 'someone else'? > > What do you mean, you ask? > > Okay, Snape is a GREAT potions master. We see a lot of use of Polyjuice > potions, with even Dumbledore fooled by it. So, what happens if he is a > DE who is is 'someone else' to Voldemort? Perhaps masquarading as > someone else who was killed or disappeared? I for one don't believe > that Voldemort can read minds, just body language perhaps. Mayeb he can > just smell fear.. Snape is very good at masking his feelings when he > wants to and could be able to pull it off, you know. It's a possibility. But I don't think so, for two reasons. 1. Snape, if he had used this particular ruse in the past, would not have been so dumbstruck when it was revealed to be Crouch, Jr.'s method. Nor would Dumbledore, whom I believe knows all the intricate details of Snape's spying. Part of the surprise there was that nobody suspected it, which I find hard to justify if it were a tried and true method of Snape's. 2. Polyjuice Potion lasts for one hour. All Voldemort would have to do is lock any new volunteers (or old ones) up for two, keep someone waiting in the anteroom too long, or talk for longer than an hour without allowing potty breaks, and the cover is blown. Nor do I think Snape will use Polyjuice when (okay, *if*, to be entirely canon accurate) he returns to Voldemort. The whole Polyjuice scenario as used by Barty Crouch was a plan *of* Voldemort's. He knows this particular method inside-out, and likely will be on the watch for it. It *is* ridiculously easy to test for. And I, for one, do not believe that Voldemort can detect all lies. I think *he* probably thinks he can, the egotist, but the fact of the matter is that no matter how good a diplomat/spy you are, you cannot avoid uttering the occasional untruth, and Snape survived as a spy in Voldemort's camp, undetected. He would have had no use being a spy if he were not close to Voldemort, who would therefore have *had* to be fooled at least once. So. ~Amanda, who really, seriously meant that offer of Bertie Botts Beans to the entire list if either an unregistered animagus or Polyjuice potion is a major plot element in book 5 From summer2999 at aol.com Mon Nov 25 00:48:39 2002 From: summer2999 at aol.com (Carolyn) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 00:48:39 -0000 Subject: Someone's gonna die. Will they become a ghost? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47108 I was thinking this recently... it's a well known fact that *someone* is going to die in the next book, and probably more as time goes on... so what do you think the chances are of the person who dies becoming a ghost, and sticking around to help people? I mean think about it... didn't JK Rowling say that the happiest people don't become ghosts, and that we'd learn more about that in future books? If the person dies is Lupin or Sirius, they're definetly not happy. The same probably goes for other people. This is just an idea I was thinking about... I don't know much about ghosts. Can ghosts go to other places... wait, they must be able to, considering Nearly Headless Nick's deathday party... could someone become a ghost and spy on other people, like Voldemort? Yeah this is getting kinda crazy... I just have this idea of someone, maybe Sirius being killed, but still sticking around to help everyone else, and spying on Voldemort and stuff because he can't be hurt. Please respond. I'd like other opinions on this. Sorry if it's been discussed before. And one other thing... I think too much... I was thinking this morning, do you think Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs deliberately let the Marauder's Map get confiscated when they left so that other people would be able to use it after them? Not very important, oh well... Have a nice day! Peace, Carolyn From dorigen at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 02:59:17 2002 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 02:59:17 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Snape/Vodemort Musings Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47109 jazmyn says: >Okay, Snape is a GREAT potions master. We see a lot of use of Polyjuice >potions, with even Dumbledore fooled by it. So, what happens if he is a >DE who is is 'someone else' to Voldemort? Perhaps masquarading as >someone else who was killed or disappeared? The Polyjuice Potion only lasts one hour. Snape would have to either do his spying very quickly, or find a way to extend the Potion's effect. (Not that either of these is necessarily impossible.) Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From legally_blonde_174 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 02:37:16 2002 From: legally_blonde_174 at yahoo.com (legally_blonde_174) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 02:37:16 -0000 Subject: Snape and Dumbledore-relation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47110 Ok, I have a theory. I've been thinking since GF came out about this. I think that Snape is Dumbledores son. I ahve a lot of things that are evidence to such, but I'd like to hear what all of you think. Any comments? Ideas? --"Legally Blonde" PS- I have a slightly more far fetched idea that I am not so sure about, and that is that Sirius and Snape are brothers. Again, any ideas? From kaityf at jorsm.com Mon Nov 25 05:41:59 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 23:41:59 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and the Potters In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021123212330.0127dbc8@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021124230943.01283350@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47111 >Carol wrote (as part of a longer post about Snape and the Potters): > > > being killed. I started to wonder if Harry's dream is actually > > something of a memory. Melpomene replied: >The 2nd [reason for having thought about this too] was in PoA during the >Patronus lesson when Harry hears the >voices of his parents...or what he ASSUMES to be the voices of his >parents. Lupin's reaction is very odd to me here when Harry tells him >he heard his father telling yelling a warning to Lilly....I got the distinct >impression from Lupin's reaction that Harry could not POSSIBLY been >hearing Jame's voice. I don't know why, possibly because he had been >killed earlier? Somewhere else? And Lupin knew it. Me (Carol): This is the best explanation I've seen so far for Lupin's reaction. I could never quite figure out why he would have *been* at the scene, but by this time he could certainly know that James was not there. Really good. I like this. Melpomene again: >As for the 3rd--My suspicion here was pretty firmly cemented when >TMTSNBN was being hyped as having a scene specifically written by JKR >herself and that she was ADAMANT about how it should be filmed and >that she was PARTICULARLY adamant that JAMES NOT BE SHOWN! Me: Ohhhh. I didn't know that. I knew the scene had JKR's stamp of approval, but I didn't know the part about James. That is revealing, isn't it? More Melpomene: >Now, I don't know if the voice Harry heard was actually Snape trying >to give a final, desperate and doomed warning or if it was, in fact, >James but I am CONVINCED Snape was at Godric's Hollow that night in >Some Capacity. Me: I am too now. My first inclination is to say that it's Snape who's yelling out the warning, although could give him away to Voldemort, although the voice tells Lilly to take Harry and run and he'd hold "him" (meaning Voldemort) off. I suppose it would be possible that Snape arrived first to warn Lilly. She may have had just enough time to run and grab Harry, but that's it. Maybe Snape stalled LV for a short while and thought Lilly had had a chance to get away. If the voice doesn't belong to James, which seems likely, and it doesn't belong to Snape either, who could it belong to? If as I guessed, Lucius was there as well, it certainly wouldn't be Lucius warning Lilly. I hope we get more hints about that night in book 5. Melpomene: >I am also sure he's connected to the "missing" 24 >hours. You have some good ideas there. Thanks. I'm pretty sure now that he's connected to those hours as well. I think Hagrid, Snape, and Dumbledore are all connected. I don't think Serius is, though. I think he showed up later. Melpomene again: >Snape was in mortal danger >from any DE's who might have also been at the scene and witnessed >this betrayal. A performance like that would CERTAINLY be enough to >cement DD's trust in Severus Snape AND explain why in GoF he would be >reluctant to tell Harry the reasons for that trust. I agree. And that's why I figured that it's very possible Lucius and Snape agreed on some cover story, each for his own reason. I could see both of them swearing to support the other as having been under the imperius curse. We know that's what Lucius claims. Snape, at that point, couldn't be sure how other DE's would react to the vaporization of LV, so he certainly wouldn't want to admit to Lucius that he was actually a spy for DD, but sometimes the truth is a good lie. That is, I could see that the two would be cooking up excuses and it would seem too much for them both to say they were under the imperious curse, so Snape could say, "Okay, you say you were under the imperious curse, and I'll say I was really a spy for DD. I'll go now and tell DD about Voldemort so it will be more believable." Then off he goes and during the trials Lucius is cleared of wrong doing because he was under the imperius curse and Snape is cleared because it turns out he was really a spy for DD. Lucius and the other DE's think "ha, ha we fooled DD and the other goody-goodies. They think Snape was a spy for DD, but we know he was really a true DE like us." From pat_mahony at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 06:56:15 2002 From: pat_mahony at hotmail.com (Pat Mahony) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 06:56:15 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Someone's gonna die. Will they become a ghost? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47112 Carolyn wrote: > >I was thinking this recently... it's a well known fact that >*someone* is going to die in the next book, and probably more as >time goes on... so what do you think the chances are of the person >who dies becoming a ghost, and sticking around to help people? I >mean think about it... didn't JK Rowling say that the happiest >people don't become ghosts, and that we'd learn more about that in >future books? If the person dies is Lupin or Sirius, they're >definetly not happy. The same probably goes for other people. > >This is just an idea I was thinking about... I don't know much about >ghosts. Can ghosts go to other places... wait, they must be able >to, considering Nearly Headless Nick's deathday party... could >someone become a ghost and spy on other people, like Voldemort? >Yeah this is getting kinda crazy... I just have this idea of >someone, maybe Sirius being killed, but still sticking around to >help everyone else, and spying on Voldemort and stuff because he >can't be hurt. The ghosts that we have witnessed so far, particularly Nearly Headless Nick, have a high degree of choice- they are free to do whatever they please, so your theory about a ghost turning spy could work based on that. Moaning Myrtle seems never to have gotten over the depression she felt at the time of death, ie, she is always crying etc, but she still does an identity, and is free to make her own choices. I don't have my book, but I also seem to recall Myrtle haunting Olive, until the Ministry ordered her not to, and to return to Hogwarts. So it appears that the MoM has the power to enforce this. In conclusion, I have to say that I like your idea about a ghost spying, and at the moment I can't find anything to disprove it. Roo _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From pat_mahony at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 07:03:56 2002 From: pat_mahony at hotmail.com (Pat Mahony) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 07:03:56 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Dumbledore-relation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47113 Legally Blonde wrote > >Ok, I have a theory. I've been thinking since GF came out about >this. I think that Snape is Dumbledores son. I ahve a lot of things >that are evidence to such, but I'd like to hear what all of you >think. Any comments? Ideas? > >--"Legally Blonde" > There's nothing I love more than far-fetched outlandish theories, but I'm afraid I'll need evidence (ie canon) for it to be considered (by me at least). Post your evidence, and then we'll see. Your proposal does intrigue me enormously, though Roo _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 10:31:52 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:31:52 -0000 Subject: Other Schools In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021124160448.077f2470@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47114 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "James P. Robinson III" wrote: > > >Corinthum wrote: > >"Hogwarts isn't just the best school in > >England. It's the only one. Yes, I know some people don't think > >this, but to this point we have absolutely no evidence to the > >contrary." > JAMES: > As to both this issue and the corollary question of whether all > wizards attend Hogwarts, I think it is fair to say that there is no > conclusive (or even really persuasive) evidence either way. It > depends more on each individual's general perceptions of the WW. > That is what makes these such interesting issues. > > Jim (who is undecided about other wizard schools comparable to > Hogwarts in Britain, but believes that other schools for wizards do > exist in Britain and that not all British Wizards attend Hogwarts). > Jim bboy_mn: Once again, someone (although, perhaps unwisely) has extended an invitation to explain my theory. Most people try to avoid doing that at all costs. If you only read the book and accept what you read, then the wizarding world in Britain is relatively large and Hogwarts is the only school. BUT when you try to reconcile the numbers, nothing adds up. People have done extensive analysis in this group trying to estimate the size of the wizard world based on the number of students. I know how many students are in my home town school and I know how many people are in my home town. Expand that to Hogwarts and I get an estimate of the size of the wizard world. If you do that, you discover the wizard world is tiny, way too tiny to support the obvious economy in the story. Of course, you can only do that, if you figure out how many students are at Hogwarts which hundreds of people sweating for hours at a time have yet to do. Next, if you 'best guess' the size of the wizard world, there doesn't appear to be enough students at Hogwarts for that many wizards. So neither the size of the school nor the size of the wizard world can be reconciled, and therefore can't be used to reconcile the size of the other. The size of the economy appears to in indicate a fairly large wizard population. If we accept that as true, then we have to figure out where all these missing students are, if they are not at Hoqwarts. Now to my theory- I model my theory to some extent on the actual educational system in Britian as I know it (I live in the US). There are three general levels of schooling; 3 year, 5 year, and 7 year. Three year being the absolute minimum need to function in the wizard world. At year five, you talk your OWLS and that documents your qualifications. At this time as in the muggle world (O-Levels), you are qualified to go out and get a job, and the same is true of the wizard world. The OWLS are your proof of your ability as a wizard. Now in Britian, students usually stop what I call secondary school or high school at year five, and if they go beyond year five, they go to college. College, in this case, is not the university, but advanced high school (or maybe closer to Junior College). So, since Hogwarts is a SEVEN year school, it, in a sense, is a College, although, It is referred to as a *School* of Witchcraft and Wizardry. At normal secondary school and even the first five years at Hogwarts are simply Schools of Magic. To study advanced course and go for you NEWT quailifications, you take Hogwarts 6th and 7th year college level classes. So, there is only one College of Witchcraft and Wizardry and that is Hogwarts. But there are other Schools of Magic that have 3 and 5 year course, but offer nothing beyond year five. Can I prove that? Not if my life depended on it. But it is reasonably modeled on the regular school system in the UK, and I does allow Hogwarts to be the only school of it's kind, and at the same time account for all those apparently missing students. Very marginally magic students, may reach level 3 through apprenticships rather than course study. But the only way to reach level 5 is to take the OWL test and have those to certify your qualifications. You may reach level 5 by apprenticship or specialized trade school, but you still must take the OWL tests and have your OWLS certfications for it to be recognised. Just one man's opinion. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 10:55:52 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:55:52 -0000 Subject: What about Myrtle? (was: Peeves Not A Real Ghost?) In-Reply-To: <3DE154F7.BD4AC8B@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47115 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jazmyn wrote: Jazmyn: > > Ghosts perhaps have limited, uncontrolled ability to effect the material > world or like in the movie Ghost, they have to concentrate hard to do it > and it exhausts them quickly.. > > Jazmyn bboy_mn: I we look at ghort in the common broader sense, as in cartoon, movies, & stories, we see that it is quite common for ghost to interact with the physical world; moans, groans, creaking board, chains rattling, chairs rocking, objects floating. Remember, if they make sound, any sound beyond telepathic sound, the they are interacting with the physical world by making air move. The more miserable the ghost, the greater their haunting and the more there are manifestations in the physical world. Most of the ghost at Hogwarts are ancient ghost who have accepted their fate and are happy living at Hogwarts and therefore have no need for 'haunting' in the traditional sense. Myrtle on the other hand is very unhappy, and this unhappiness his manifesting itself in 'hautings' affect the physical world. Myrtle floods the toilet because she is an unhappy ghost who is making he present know to the real world. The big difference is, that while ghosts can, in a limited way, act on the physical world; the physical world can not act on them. Peeves on the other hand can act on the physical world but the world can also act on him. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 07:52:06 2002 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (dangermousehq at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 23:52:06 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Someone's gonna die. Will they become a ghost? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47116 Legally Blonde wrote: "I don't have my book, but I also seem to recall Myrtle haunting Olive, until the Ministry ordered her not to, and to return to Hogwarts. So it appears that the MoM has the power to enforce this." I don't think this happened, actually. It'd be hilarious--hell, I'd haunt Oliver--but I don't think it happened. Maybe it was fanfiction. That certainly tends to muddle the canon for me. -DM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From toogoodforthisearth at yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 11:24:02 2002 From: toogoodforthisearth at yahoo.com (toogoodforthisearth) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:24:02 -0000 Subject: Big pointer to Snape as Vampire Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47117 I simply can't believe that with all the clever people here that this hasn't come up at some point but I can't find it in the FAQ on Snape as Vampire so, cough, I'm going to stick my neck out. Names give clues to who the characters really are - Lupin, Sirius etc - well Severus Snape doesn't take alot of manipulation to become Severs Nape or cuts neck. What do you think? From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon Nov 25 11:38:15 2002 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:38:15 -0000 Subject: Dark Sirius? (was Re: TBAY: Banging On The Dishwasher) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47118 Cindy fired a canon: > > "What he really wanted (and it felt almost shameful to admit it to > himself) was someone like ? someone like a *parent*: an adult wizard > whose advice he could ask without feeling stupid, someone who cared > about him, who had had experience with Dark Magic . . . . And then > the solution came to him. It was so simple, so obvious, that he > couldn't believe it had taken so long ?- Sirius." > and glossed: > "Isn't this canon strange? I mean, Sirius is supposed to be a good > guy. He was on Dumbledore's team, and he is probably good at > Transfiguration. But there's nothing to suggest he knows the first > thing about Dark Magic. We've never seen him perform any, and he > hasn't even conjured a Patronus, so far as we know. Yet here JKR is > hinting that Sirius is someone who 'had experience with Dark > Magic.' What could she be implying there, exactly? That Sirius is > *Ever So Evil,* do you think?" No time for TBAY, I'm afraid. But how would Harry know? The canon quote is Harry's internal monologue. So, whatever it is, it's got to refer to something Harry knows about Sirius. The following possibilities come to mind immediately; there are doubtless more: - MWPP were known to Harry to be deep in Dumbledore's work against Voldemort; - Sirius had to endure years of random burblings by DEs in Azkaban in which they may have given away secrets; - as one of the best students of his time, he could be supposed to have got the hang of the DADA curriculum pretty well. I lean towards the first, myself, as the others are IMO things Harry would be unlikely to consider. I agree there is a dark side to Sirius signalled, but IMO this canon is not part of that, nor, again IMO, is involvement in the dark arts what is signalled. David From pat_mahony at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 12:28:23 2002 From: pat_mahony at hotmail.com (The Real Makarni) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:28:23 -0000 Subject: Myrtle(WAS Re: Someone's gonna die. Will they become a ghost?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47119 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dangermousehq at h... wrote: > Legally Blonde wrote: > "I don't have my book, but I > also seem to recall Myrtle haunting Olive, until the Ministry ordered her > not to, and to return to Hogwarts. So it appears that the MoM has the power > to enforce this." > > I don't think this happened, actually. It'd be hilarious--hell, I'd haunt Oliver--but I don't think it happened. Maybe it was fanfiction. That certainly tends to muddle the canon for me. Actually, Legally Blonde didn't write that, I (Roo) did. And Myrtle *did* haunt Olive Hornby (did you think I meant Oliver, by any chance?). Anyway, Myrtle says on pg 404 of GoF, when Harry is listening to the egg, : "And then she (Olive Hornby) saw my body. . . ooooh, she didn't forget it until her dying day, I made sure of that. . . followed her around and reminded her, I did, I remember at her brother's wedding. . . - and then, of course, she went to the Ministry of Magic to stop me stalking her, so I had to come back here and live in my toilet." >From this, I think it is safe to assume that the MoM was responsible for Myrtle's "posting" at Hogwarts, so they must have a way too enforce it as well. This begins raise certain questions that I can't be bothered addressing at the moment. See ya Roo From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Mon Nov 25 12:52:25 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:52:25 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and the Potters In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021123212330.0127dbc8@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021125124148.00a18ac0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 47120 At 17:35 24/11/02 +0000, melclaros wrote: >As for the 3rd--My suspicion here was pretty firmly cemented when >TMTSNBN was being hyped as having a scene specifically written by JKR >herself and that she was ADAMANT about how it should be filmed and >that she was PARTICULARLY adamant that JAMES NOT BE SHOWN! I don't have much time to post to this list at the moment (or even to read it properly; I currently have a backlog of about 400 messages!) but someone posted the above statement on the Movie list which is of far more interest to me right now. I realise that this is verging on the off-topic for this list, but I shall be short. I hate to sound accusing, but could you please give any kind of support for your statement about what JKR was "ADAMANT" about in that scene? I have seen absolutely no detailed comment from anyone involved in the movie production about what JKR told them they could or could not show in that scene, and this is the first time I've seen anyone claim any such thing. In fact, the only thing I've ever seen anyone involved in the movie say was that JKR had written *a* new scene for the PS/SS movie, and verification that it was the Godric's Hollow one only came out a lot later. I've seen no further elucidation of any kind. From eloiseherisson at aol.com Mon Nov 25 13:02:04 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:02:04 EST Subject: TBAY - Choleric!Snape and Dumbledore's Head Message-ID: <66.2a9a2ce6.2b13794c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47121 > Eloise, who had been sitting quietly at the table, suddenly looked up. > "Snape, much as it pains me to admit it, isn't, apparently, a > terribly nice, kind, loving person. I'm afraid that I *can* see him > joining in with the other Death Eaters. Like Elkins, I think that > unfortunately he *does* have a taste for that sort of thing, although > I'm not sure whether he actually enjoys it or whether it isn't more of > a reflex. But for some reason, he began to question Voldemort's > philosophy. Maybe he twigged that Voldemort was the only one who > *really* benefited, that even if he sought power for himself, he would > always be controlled by Voldemort." > > "No, that can't be it, Eloise," Judy replied. "If Snape enjoyed > torture, and only left the Death Eaters because he felt that Voldemort > wasn't sharing power enough, then Dumbledore would have never taken > him in." "Oh, but Judy," said Eloise, "that isn't what I was trying to say. What I said was that I wasn't sure that he *did* actually *enjoy* torturing or whatever, more that it was his natural instinct. It's the way he acts when he doesn't consciously control the tendency. Just like saying 'I see no difference' to Hermione. He didn't sit there and think about that remark, did he? It just came out. I think he's naturally unkind, just as he's naturally envious and resentful. "I meant that something caused him to realise that Voldemort's philosophy of there being no good and evil was wrong and only suggested, as I don't favour his conversion being as the result of a Bang, that it might have been because he realised that the only person to benefit fully from Voldemort's philosophy was Voldemort himself. That the father figure he thought he had seen in Voldemort wasn't there, or wasn't the kind of father he wanted (or perhaps was too like the father he had). I don't know what made him realise, but it was this dawning realisation that there *is* such a thing as good and evil and that we *are* accountable for the way we behave towards others that made his leaving the DEs imperative. That's core Diana philosphy: "Giving Evil Overlord's Regime Genuine Effort, Severus Soul Is Severely Troubled, (Oops, forgotten my own acronym, bear with me while look it up....) Eventually Rendering Defection Indeed A Necessary Act. We know there's some as yet unstated reason that Dumbledore trusts him. That doesn't have to have anything to do with his reason for leaving the DEs, does it?" > > Eileen tapped her fingernails on the table impatiently. "You keep > attacking the Sadist!Snape theory, Judy, but you haven't offered any > alternative. If Snape isn't a natural sadist, then why was he a Death > Eater in the first place? Why is he so mean to the Gryffindor > students? Just what's your explanation for Snape's behavior?" > > Judy looked as though she had never been asked a more flattering > question. "Oooo, I thought you'd never ask! My theory is that Snape > has the sort of personality that naturally angers easily. Back when > it was believed that personality was dominated by bodily fluids, he > would have been said to be full of bile. I rather like using the > concept of the four humours when discussing Snape -- he does teach > potions, after all. So, I call my theory Choleric!Snape." > > "Choleric?" asked Diana. > > "It's just an old name for bile," Judy explained. "In the past, it > was believed that happy people had plenty of blood, placid people had > lots of phlegm... > > "Yuck!" George exclaimed from behind the bar. > > "Don't blame me, I didn't come up with that bit about phlegm," Judy > said. She turned back to her fellow Snape theorists at the table. " A > sad person was said to have be melancholic -- full of black bile, > whatever that is -- while someone like Snape was said to be choleric, > full of yellow bile. So, I'm saying that Snape has a naturally > resentful, envious personality. He sees the world as hostile to him. > He believes he's being treated unfairly, even when he's not. And > when he IS treated unfairly -- *cough*prank*cough* -- he's downright > implacable. He's mean to the Gryffindors because he's convinced that > they are getting privileges they don't deserve. And, I believe that > he joined the Death Eaters because he thought that those opposing > Voldemort, even Dumbledore himself, wanted him dead." "That's right", said Eloise. "I've lost track," said Diana. "Diana, that's exactly how you state Snape ended up in the DEs in the first place, remember? Severus was schooled in an environment where moral values were vaunted, but where his experience was that the guilty went unpunished, like in the... well, you know what I'm talking about", she said, looking over her shoulder in anticipation of the Sirius Apologist, who of course, being expected, didn't materialise. "Now, what was it we once said? Oh yes, > It's not so much what the Marauders did that's the problem, as what > Dumbledore *didn't* do. I fancy he felt ever so let down by > the 'light' side, didn't find justice in the all-wise all-just > Dumbledore. . . . What's the point of allying yourself with > goodness if evil goes unpunished? Is there any difference between > the two sides? Perhaps not. "I don't believe he was evil. I believe he did evil things out of a mistaken belief in a false philosophy. He was taken in by evil, if you like," "I don't buy it," said Eileen. "I understand some of the idea all right, but are you saying that Voldemort isn't evil because he believes in this false philosophy? Now, you could make an argument for any one person not to be evil on the grounds that they are deluded... But I think I'd need to see evidence that Severus Snape was that deluded. You see, I don't have a problem with calling people evil if they do evil things. It doesn't make them a space alien. It just makes them... well... evil. And some people are less evil than others. And an evil person can be good if they stop doing evil things and repent about them." "You just can't win round here, can you? Judy complains I'm making him out to be too evil and you complain that I'm saying he's not evil. Oh dear! "Mmm...Yes, I am aware that there are problems with my view and they're related to the problems of moral relativism expounded by Dicey. And I'm very aware that in out Midnight in the Garden discussions I came down very heavily in favour of saying that we can only show goodness through our actions. But I do have a big problem with saying that *people* are evil. I suppose the corollary is that we shouldn't really say that people are good, just that they are capable of both good and evil actions. Perhaps calling people 'good' or 'bad' or 'evil' is just shorthand for the way we judge most of their actions to be. "But...it does seem to me that in the Potterverse, the distinction between people that JKR is drawing is not one between 'good' people and 'evil' people, but between those who believe in a moral code and those who do not. To use the religious language which she so nearly uses herself, they are those who walk in darkness and those who walk in the light. JKR has removed this from sectarianism by having Voldemort's philosophy devoid of any morality whatsoever. On the other hand, her 'good' people are far from spotless. Both may do deeds which are not in themselves 'good'. "As far as Snape is concerned, I think he had been alienated by the 'light' side because he saw that they did not always apparently act according to the principles they were supposed to stand for, particularly, he thought, where he was concerned. I think that he therefore rejected consciously the idea of morality and lived according to the code of Voldemort and the DEs. Only it didn't work and there was a little conscience still locked away in there somewhere waiting to be re-activated. I think the journey he later took was one from the position of moral darkness which he had chosen to one of moral illumination which became irresistible, a change of perspective which demanded a new course of action rather than his *becoming* a *good* person. I think for a *person* to be truly *evil*, they have to be aware that what they are doing is wrong and persist with it, perhaps enjoy it. I'm not certain whether Voldemort falls into this category, or whether he is merely deranged. I don't think Snape did. But then I'm biased and I have a theory to defend! Cindy came to sit down at the table. Eloise, who after her night -time exploits on the Big Bang had had the wind taken right out of her sails by not being made to walk the plank, keel-hauled or even threatened with the Big Paddle, had decided that Cindy must be going soft and moved over readily to make space. "Ask to add the theory to the manifest. I ask you! Where's the fun in that?" she thought. "Here, have some brandy, Cindy." Cindy poured herself a generous measure and offered Eloise the bottle. "Oh, no thanks, I'll stick to the Scotch, thanks," said Eloise, patting her hip flask. "So, have you thought over what I said?" "Just remind me," said Eloise. "You said that Dumbledore *does* trust Hagrid with his life and Hagrid does what Hagrid does -- he fluffs it. Dumbledore dies. There is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth and Snape steps in both to protect Hagrid from the wrath of the WW and to take credit for the deed himself, (it's an 'accident' of course - even Voldemort can't expect Snape to go round openly murdering the most respected wizard of the age, which would be a bit self-defeating, really) thus simultaneously satisfying Voldemort and becoming deeply unpopular with the MoM, ordinary wizarding folks and three quarters of the school (maybe even McGonagall turning her back on him) though a hero to the Malfoys and the rest of the Slytherins. So there we would have the proof of Snape's loyalty and the terrible death all rolled into one neat package ?- a package containing Albus Dumbledore's very head -- with dear Severus' integrity still intact." "Yes, I know what I said, but..." "Look, I like to be accommodating, so maybe we can do something with that theory. But it can't come aboard in its current condition. I mean, right now it is basically RigorMortis!Dumbledore. Snape shows up with Dumbledore's *head* and takes credit for Dumbledore's murder? And Voldemort is so stupid he can't tell that it's a set-up? "Nah, let's tweak that just a bit. Snape needs to *apprehend* Dumbledore and deposit him *alive* at Voldemort's feet. Voldemort duels with an old and weary Dumbledore and wins. That's much more Bangy in a -- " the words caught in Cindy's throat, but she forced them out anyway ?- "MAGICDISHWASHER kind of way. Dumbledore lived a lie, and now he dies a lie. "Ah, but Cindy, you left out my second version, didn't you? I thought you'd like the Hagrid one because, well, you don't like Hagrid terribly much, do you? And I do have a terrible sense of doom about that particular canon. But remember my alternative version... >>You see, I want to suggest that Dumbledore is sending Snape back to Voldemort precisely to prepare the way for his own sacrifice. It seems that Dumbledore has been unable to tell Harry about his destiny up to now. I suggest that he is grooming him for a role that he will be able to take up only when Dumbledore is no longer there, that Dumbledore know that he must pass his mantle as the greatest living wizard on to Harry. As Fawkes has to die before he can rise again, so Dumbledore has to die before Harry can assume his mantle and defeat Voldemort. "Snape, then, has to regain Voldemort's trust and set in motion the train of events that will lead to the 'betrayal' of perhaps the one person who has ever shown him true friendship. No wonder Snape's pale and Dumbledore's apprehensive. "What about *that*, then?" she asked defiantly. "Well", said Cindy, "I'll be the first to admit that this theory has some problems. Having Snape deliver Karkaroff is a lot more solidly based in canon. JKR wants the reader to *loathe* Karkaroff; there isn't a sympathetic feature about the man -? weak chin, furs, lazy, fruity unctuous voice, informer, the spit -- I mean, *yuk.* Dumbledore, on the other hand, is sympathetic. Readers might not fully accept Snape having anything to do with Dumbledore's demise, even with Dumbledore's consent. All things considered, I think if anyone will be the price of admission into Voldemort's lair, it will be Karkaroff, not Dumbledore. "But that's exactly the point! What is Bangy about someone who is set up to be unsympathetic (what did happen to that Krum and Karkaroff adoration society you set up, by the way?) being bumped off? It's much Bangier for a loved character to be sacrificed. And does JKR worry about the readers? Who does she write for? Herself, that's who. "Let's think about who's died at Voldemort's hands so far. Lily and James, then Bertha, who's kind of sympathetic for someone we never see and then Frank Bryce and Cedric, both set up as sympathetic. Do you remember that thread about which character readers pitied the most? I can assure you Frank Bryce and Cedric got a lot of sympathy votes. "And no-one has yet given me any reason why Voldemort should be convinced by Snape bringing in or killing Karkaroff. How, precisely, does that indicate his loyalty to Voldemort? Why, pray, won't he be able to see that *that's* a set-up? "Aside from that, I need a lot more convincing that Dumbledore would condone Karkaroff's killing as a moral act. I know it's war, I know that right and wrong aren't necessarily clear-cut. I am personally sure that Dumbledore, either directly or indirectly already has blood on his hands. But I'm sorry, I still think there is a clear moral difference between someone being killed in the course of battle and someone who is no longer even an enemy being hunted down and killed as is suggested in this case. I think there is a difference between, say, being in an invidious position where you have to decide which of two people will die, or even of deciding whether to sacrifice the one or the many and deliberately going out to kill an individual, even if it does ultimately lead to a strategic advantage. To me, killing Karkaroff in this manner would be the most chilling piece of ends-justifying-the-means thinking. It would be Dumbledore stooping to the level of Voldemort. Sacrificing oneself for the greater good is one thing, killing someone else is another thing entirely. "Think about it. Isn't *sacrifice* a theme more consonant with these books than the ends justifying the means? It was Lily's *sacrifice* that saved Harry from Voldemort. Don't we speculate that Stoned!Harry will make just such a sacrifice?" Cindy didn't look convinced. "Besides," she said icily. "If Snape manages to deliver Dumbledore, will Voldemort be satisfied with that? Of course not! Voldemort will ask for the delivery of Harry Potter, and Snape had better deliver the goods, or . . . " Cindy drew one finger slowly across her throat. "Are you sure that's what you want?" "If Snape delivers Karkaroff, what makes you think Voldemort would be satisfied with *that*?" countered Eloise, doing her best to sound even icier. "Please tell me, because I really don't get it. As for Severus...well, that's not up to me, is it? Of course that's not what I want. But I'm very much afraid it's going to end in tears sooner or later; I'm sure that JKR has some very nasty surprises round the corner for both him and his legion fans. And now, if you don't mind, I think I'd like to be alone for a bit," she said, surreptitiously wiping the corner of her eye, swallowing hard and moving to a low chair by the fire, where she fell to contemplating the contents of her whisky tumbler. Eloise. Hypothetic Alley: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hypotheticalley.html Inish Alley: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pat_mahony at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 13:25:51 2002 From: pat_mahony at hotmail.com (The Real Makarni) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:25:51 -0000 Subject: TBAY :Lily's Sacrifice was a SOPPY CHARM In-Reply-To: <000601c293f6$0dc13940$5604a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47122 Roo was sitting in the Tavern at Theory Bay, celebrating his birthday with a quiet night on the town. He wasn't paying much attnention- he had eavesdropped on a few of the Snape theories, but he didn't find Snape a particularly intriguing character, so he was now slowly lulling into a gentle slumber at the bar, trying to work out what was so damned appealing about George. . . All of a sudden he shot up, as a wave of unbelievable cold swep through him. A quick glance around revealed that Amandageist had entered the room. Guessing that she'd probably be contributing to the Snape theorising, Roo went back to his stupour "I," Amandageist announced, "have had a Thought. More accurately, I had a blinding insight where several people's thoughts came together. I was browsing over on the main list, since nobody seems to want to talk to me here, and I read something that Jodel said. . . " She droned on for a while, and Roo didn't bat an eyelid, until she waved a hand and a large, floating screen appeared. Roo loved visual aids in theories. It had several holes burned in it. "Ah, yes," Amandageist said. "Sorry about that. Sometimes my irritation with those blinking and pop-up ads overcomes me...and the quote is rather long, sorry." Roo perked up and began to be interested, until he read what it said: "Message 39315, Love as a Spell Component: My beloved, Jan, is a long ponderer and came to me today with a Harry Potter thought (as he calls them). He has braided several threads together and presented me with several novel takes on things, which I will now proceed to share. There has been general dissatisfaction with the idea that Lily's dying for Harry was what saved him from Voldemort. Plenty of people must have flung themselves in front of others in Voldemort's long career as a Bad Wizard; why should this one time be special or different? We are told the Potters knew Voldemort was after them. Jan suggests that the Potters did more than hide. He suggested that Dumbledore worked with Lily, who was very good at charms, far in advance to set a spell on Harry that would be activated in a worst-case scenario when there was no other way to protect him. A shield or protection that required Lily to do what she did, integrating her love into the rest of the spell and completing it." Roo didn't wait to read any more. "That's it," he muttered, as he stormed not-so-subtly towards the door, "It's about time a ship was built". He stormed striaght down to the dockyards, and began furiously lashing together planks, and scrounging for the appropriate cannons. "Lily, set up a spell to protect to Harry, that involves her death? I don't think so." He wasn't really talking to anyone, but he did have a reputation for often talking to himself. "That just contradicts Dumbledore's little speech at the end of Book 1, doesn't? What word was used? 'inscrutable' was one, I think. . . or at least something similar. The whole point is that Voldemort *can't* understand it- if it's a contrived spell, well, he could understand it then, couldn't he? Yes, there couldn't be a constructed spell manipulated by the Potters, because that undermines the whole meaning of the first book! It shakes the very foundations of PS! Dumbledore's little love-speech is a very nice, big cannon, they won't be able to sink that one easily. . .How dare they try to undermine the purity of Lily's sacrifice? " Roo pulled up some blankets to prepare to sleep on his new ship. As he drifted off, he couldn't help but mutter, "This better not have anything to do with Magic Dishwasher. . . " Roo awoke at dawn the next day, a little hazy as to his exact whereabouts. Then he remembered, jumped up and looked around. He was standing in the middle of a Viking longboat, with one, massive, cannon on one side, with "LOVE" emblazoned across it. Instead of the obligatory Dragon-headed prow, he noticed his new ship had an exquisitely carved figure of a woman clutching a baby, a look of forlorn hope in her terrified eyes. "Not bad," he muttered, "although I must say, I do seem to have gone a bit over board. How on earth did manage this is one night?" Then he remembered something else. He snapped his gaze upwards, and saw (to his slight embarassment) an acronym- SOPPY CHARM (Sacrifice of Purity. Perfect? Yes. Contrived? Hardly a Reasoned Move). "A little, ah, soppy", he conceded "but at least it gets the job done. Yes, I think I'm quite happy- the purity, futility, the LOVE of Lily's sacrifice was enough to protect Harry," he reassured himself. "Lily's sacrifice was augmented enough because Voldemort, for some reason, was willing to spare her life. That's the real question. Why did Voldemort want to spare Lily?" Then he sat back down on the floor of his brand new spanking ship, and waited to see what, if any, reaction, Theory Bay would have. Roo, who couldn't resist putting a MD reference in there, even though it wasn't relevant From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 14:17:38 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 06:17:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Big pointer to Snape as Vampire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021125141738.37529.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47123 toogoodforthisearth wrote: Names give clues to who the characters really are - Lupin, Sirius etc - well Severus Snape doesn't take alot of manipulation to become Severs Nape or cuts neck. What do you think? Me: It is true that the name "Remus Lupin," at the very least, should have sent up a red flag about his being a wolf Animagus at the very least, if not an actual werewolf, which proved to be the case, and Sirius Black is in fact a black dog Animagus, something reflected in HIS name. Plus, JKR gave us Rita Skeeter, an insect (but not a mosquito) Animagus. (It is notable that neither James Potter's name nor Peter Pettigrew's name really point to their Animagus forms, and Minerva McGonagall's doesn't either.) However, Snape's name hardly lends itself to manipulation for the purpose of finding more information about him than we currently possess. For instance, none of the above highly-meaningful names relied upon rearranging their letters to arrive at their "hidden" meaning. It's all right there. Severus is a name that implies severity. He is a VERY severe teacher. Snape is a town near the east coast of England, but also puts one in mind of the words snip, snap, snipe and snake--all things we associate with the Potions Master. Besides, "severs nape" has no "u" in it, and it more strongly implies that he would be Macnair's successor as executioner of dangerous animals rather than someone who drinks blood from a human's jugular. ;) In addition to that, I think that, given the dark personality JKR has given him and the suspicion with which he is regarded, it would be dramatically anticlimactic for him to harbor even more darkness than previously suspected. JKR likes to pull switches. Sirius Black, who was supposed to be an escaped murderer, turns out to be a good guy. Remus Lupin, who seems ever so gentle and harmless turns out to be a murderous animal at the full moon. Snape, whom Harry and Ron think is out to get him and is irredeemably evil all through the first book, turns out to be on the good side--a spy for Dumbledore. I think that, if anything, we are likely to find out more good about Snape than bad (although, like the Trio, I would like to know what he did when he was a Death Eater). I think his darkness is mostly in his past (aside from his severe treatment of his students) and that JKR has nothing to gain from making him a vampire (even a spying-for-the-good-guys vampire). --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Mon Nov 25 14:38:04 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:38:04 EST Subject: PASHMINAS (was: TBAY: Amanda Binns Explains It All) Message-ID: <67.2e0b5f3.2b138fcc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47124 I, Eloise, wish to declare that, in addition to the BABEMEISTER tee-shirt, Rookwood thong, pink feather boa and assorted badges and trinkets with which I accessorise my everyday robes, I shall from now on be wearing PASHMINAS: Prejudiced Against Snape, Harry Misinterprets Involvement in Noble Albus' Sacrifice. Which is another way of saying that I think Amanda's working out of the Dumbledore's sacrifice theory is BRILLIANT. >>Amandageist glanced over at Cindy, to see if all this Banging pleased her, and was irked to see her head down on the bar beside her drink, gently snoring. "Cindy! Wake up!" Eloise shook Cindy gently. Getting no response, she shook her a little harder. Her captain's hat fell down over one eye and she grunted in her sleep. "She's blotto. No point asking her about the manifest now, Amanda," said Eloise, the glint of adventure in her eye. "Fancy a little trip out in the rowing boat?" Eloise Green with envy and sending Amanda her very own PASHMINAS by the next available owl. From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Nov 25 14:49:12 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:49:12 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Big pointer to Snape as Vampire References: Message-ID: <3DE23868.5A9173FC@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47125 toogoodforthisearth wrote: > > I simply can't believe that with all the clever people here that this > hasn't come up at some point but I can't find it in the FAQ on Snape > as Vampire so, cough, I'm going to stick my neck out. Names give > clues to who the characters really are - Lupin, Sirius etc - well > Severus Snape doesn't take alot of manipulation to become Severs Nape > or cuts neck. > > What do you think? > You can take Dumbledore and make 'Dumb led ore', but I doubt that makes him a miner... Or just 'Dumb' and we know he is not that... Or take Harry Potter and make 'Harry Otter' and we know he isn't an otter and in fact, the Dursley's never got him swimming lessons. Take Hermione Grainger and make 'her ranger'.. and so on. I think you should cut back on sugar and caffeine. You are reading too far between the lines. ;) Severus is latin for 'severe', not sever as in cutting. Snape can also be changed easily to Snap. Severe snap... Pretty much what a kid would get for mouthing off to him.. snapped at..severely. Jazmyn From kela_bit at netvision.net.il Mon Nov 25 12:43:07 2002 From: kela_bit at netvision.net.il (Katsmall the Wise) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:43:07 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Someone's gonna die. Will they become a ghost? References: Message-ID: <3DE21ADB.8040801@netvision.net.il> No: HPFGUIDX 47126 Pat Mahony wrote: > I don't have my book, but I also seem to recall Myrtle haunting Olive, > until the Ministry ordered her not to, and to return to Hogwarts. So > it appears that the MoM has the power to enforce this. I believe the MoM has ghosts that enforce it for them - we all know ghost can affect each other's behaviour, like the Hogwarts ghosts want to kick Peeves out. Also, I believe that there are spells tht 'kill' ghosts, as in stops them from being. I believe that Avada Kedavra also doesn't let ghosts be, otherwise Harry's parents would take care of him. DM wrote: > I don't think this happened, actually. It'd be hilarious--hell, I'd > haunt Oliver--but I don't think it happened. Maybe it was fanfiction. > That certainly tends to muddle the canon for me. You should re-read chapter 16 [CoS]. Myrtle says: "And then I came back here. It was important for me to haunt Olive Hornbie, you see. Oh, she was real sorry for making fun of my glasses" (Not exact quote, it's a tranlation) Katsmall the Wise kela_bit at netvision.net.il From clicketykeys at yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 12:54:41 2002 From: clicketykeys at yahoo.com (clicketykeys) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:54:41 -0000 Subject: Big pointer to Snape as Vampire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47127 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "toogoodforthisearth" < toogoodforthisearth at y...> wrote: > as Vampire so, cough, I'm going to stick my neck out. Names give > clues to who the characters really are - Lupin, Sirius etc - well > Severus Snape doesn't take alot of manipulation to become Severs > Nape or cuts neck. > Hm. I'm not sure I agree with this. I think the Snape wordplay would be a false latinization (not a word, I know, I know) of 'severe' for his first name, and a play on 'snake' for his last name. So we have an untrustworthy character who is strict to the point of severity. Sounds like Snape to me. Additional note: 'Severs' is, IMO, a long shot for vampirism, as I know of few vampires who behead their victims. "clicketykeys" From wynnde1 at aol.com Mon Nov 25 13:51:35 2002 From: wynnde1 at aol.com (wynnde1 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:51:35 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Wizard Population and Other Schools Message-ID: <18c.11bfddf2.2b1384e7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47128 In a message dated 25/11/2002 10:32:40 GMT Standard Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > The size of the economy appears to in indicate a fairly large wizard > population. If we accept that as true, then we have to figure out > where all these missing students are, if they are not at Hoqwarts. > > Well, here's another invitation to explain your theory at a bit more length < g> - on what are you basing your estimates of the "size of the wizard economy?" I'm no economics whiz, but I haven't really noticed much in the books that strikes me one way or the other as indicative of the size of the wizarding economy. The only thing that comes to mind right off the top of my head is that we know Gladrags Wizardware has at least three shops - London, Paris and Hogsmeade. If those are the only three (and only two of them are in the UK), that doesn't really strike me as evidence for a huge wizarding population/economy. Unless, of course, that you consider those are only the three main shops, and Gladrags may in fact have other locations (lots of high street shops do advertise this way, after all). So I guess my example doesn't really prove the point either way. So what have you got? I'd like to hear your evidence before I accept your above statement as "true?" :-) Wendy (Who thinks that Hogwarts is the only wizarding school in the UK - maybe includes Ireland, too, depending on where exactly on *that* island Seamus Finnegan grew up. And who also believes there can be no more than 800 students at Hogwarts, based on the numbers provided at the Gryffindor/Slytherin quidditch match in PoA. How many fewer than 800 depends on how many outside spectators - parents and alumni - were present, but I don't see how there can possibly be *more* than 800 students. So, I'd guess that total Hogwarts student population is somewhere between 600 and 775, and probably closer to the larger number). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nosref at yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 15:06:58 2002 From: nosref at yahoo.com (Fer Mendoza) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:06:58 -0000 Subject: Revisitng The Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47129 The "Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery" states that an underaged wizard/witch cannot practice magic outside school. Do you think the Hogwarts express is considered an extension of the school (Hogwarts)? In Chapter 11 "Aboard the Hogwarts Express", Hermione started to practice the summoning charms while travelling to Hogwarts on the train. She wasn't reprimanded for this. Strictly speaking she was not "in" school yet. Also, I think in the second book, the twins with HRH were playing with exploding snaps while on the train on their way home. Again, strictly speaking they were already "outside" the school. What are your thoughts on this? (A sickle for you thoughts?) / Fer From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 15:08:07 2002 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:08:07 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Potters In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021124230943.01283350@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47130 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > I am too now. My first inclination is to say that it's Snape who's yelling > out the warning, although could give him away to Voldemort, although the > voice tells Lilly to take Harry and run and he'd hold "him" (meaning > Voldemort) off. I suppose it would be possible that Snape arrived first to > warn Lilly. She may have had just enough time to run and grab Harry, but > that's it. Maybe Snape stalled LV for a short while and thought Lilly had > had a chance to get away. If the voice doesn't belong to James, which > seems likely, and it doesn't belong to Snape either, who could it belong > to? If as I guessed, Lucius was there as well, it certainly wouldn't be > Lucius warning Lilly. I hope we get more hints about that night in book 5. You've suggested that the male voice Harry heard urging Lily to take Harry and run was not James, and suggested that voice was either Lupin, Snape, or Lucius Malfoy. My concern with this theory: Harry has met all three of these men, and has spoken to them. He knows what their voices sound like. Wouldn't he by now be able to connect the voice in the flashback to one of them? Yes, I recognize that voices can "age," but all three were grown men at the time of the Potters' deaths, and I don't think the ensuing 12-14 years of time would change their voices dramatically enough that Harry couldn't recognize them. That doesn't discredit the idea that Remus knows enough about what happened that night to know Harry couldn't be hearing James' voice making that statement. It does suggest that the voice belongs to someone Harry has never (yet) met, which would rule out people like Sirius, Peter, Remus, Lucius, Fudge, Arthur Weasley, Hagrid, Dumbledore, Snape, Flitwick, Macnair, Crouch (Sr. and Jr.), etc. Which raises all kinds of intriguing possibilities. Mundungus Fletcher? An uncle or grandfather who was in fact killed in fight to save Harry and Lily? Mr. Figg? Or perhaps somebody working undercover using some kind of voice altering spell... or potion? aja_1991, pondering away at the mystery... From dicentra at xmission.com Mon Nov 25 15:46:48 2002 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:46:48 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Baiting the Sirius Apologists (Banging On The Dishwasher ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47131 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marinafrants" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > > Cindy stepped onto the wooden dance floor at the center of the > > Tavern and slipped her wand from her uniform. She took careful > aim > > at the wall and began to write: > > > > ************ > > > > "What he really wanted (and it felt almost shameful to admit it to > > himself) was someone like ? someone like a *parent*: an adult > wizard > > whose advice he could ask without feeling stupid, someone who > cared > > about him, who had had experience with Dark Magic . . . . And > then > > the solution came to him. It was so simple, so obvious, that he > > couldn't believe it had taken so long ?- Sirius." > > > > ************ > > > > "Isn't this canon strange? I mean, Sirius is supposed to be a > good > > guy. He was on Dumbledore's team, and he is probably good at > > Transfiguration. But there's nothing to suggest he knows the > first > > thing about Dark Magic. We've never seen him perform any, and he > > hasn't even conjured a Patronus, so far as we know. Yet here JKR > is > > hinting that Sirius is someone who 'had experience with Dark > > Magic.' What could she be implying there, exactly? That Sirius > is > > *Ever So Evil,* do you think?" > > "Uhm..." Marina steps out from behind Dicey. Her Sirius Apologist > robes are still freshly creased from the package, and the shiny > motorcycle boots she bought specifically for stomping on Sociopath! > Sirius claims are only a lilttle scuffed, but she's doing her best > to look confident. "Can I take that one?" > > Dicentra and Cindy both nod. > > "Well," says Marina, "it seems to me that 'had experience with Dark > Magic' is a rather vague phrase. It can mean 'experience working > Dark Margic,' or it can mean 'experience dealing with Dark Magic.' > Now, Sirius grew to adulthood during the first Vold War, when Dark > Magic was running amock everywhere. Now, theoretically, I suppose > it's possible that he spent the years between Hogwarts and Azkaban > doing macrame or writing reports on cauldron bottoms or something; > but in practice I think it's a pretty safe bet that he was out there > fighting the good fight alongside James and Remus and the rest of > the "Old Crowd." And if that' the case, then Sirius has had > experience with Dark Magic in the same way that a homicide cop has > had experience with murder." > > Marina smiles hopefully and looks to both Dicey and Cindy for > approval. > Dicentra crumbles at Marina's feet, sobbing in gratitude. "Yes, yes, that's the only answer. Undoubtedly, the condition 'experience with Dark Magic' is meant to exclude Muggles, Ron, Hermione, and other Hogwarts students." Dicentra gets to her feet and fixes Cindy to the wall with a bullet-like stare. "And you call yourself a Sirius Apologist," she sneers distainfully. "Only when I need Sirius Apologetics," Cindy spits back. "By the way," says Dicentra, as she turns on her heel and shepherds her bespeckled companion away from the mess. "Great performance art." --Dicentra, who would also like to chuck in two sickles for the brilliant PASHMINAS From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 16:26:39 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:26:39 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts snobbery (related: wizard schools) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47132 Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only time that we are told that hogwarts is the only school is from Hagrid, who went there. Now, there are people who are so snobbish (bit like the malfloy's) who insist that their child goes to Eton or Cambridge as they are the 'only' schools fit for them. Could a consideration like that have applied whenever we learn that Hogwarts is the only school? Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 16:44:12 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:44:12 -0000 Subject: Wizard Population and Other Schools In-Reply-To: <18c.11bfddf2.2b1384e7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47133 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., wynnde1 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 25/11/2002 10:32:40 GMT Standard Time, > bboy_mn writes: > > > > The size of the economy appears to in indicate a fairly large > > wizard population. If we accept that as true, then we have to > > figure out where all these missing students are, if they are not > > at Hoqwarts. > > > > > WENDY Replies: > Well, here's another invitation to explain your theory at a bit > more length - on what are you basing your estimates of the > "size of the wizard economy?" I'm no economics whiz, but I haven't > really noticed much in the books that strikes me one way or the > other as indicative of the size of the wizarding economy. > > ...edited... > So what have you got? I'd like to hear your evidence before I accept > your above statement as "true?" BBOY_MN reponds in part: You seem to have missed the long paragraph where I explained that neither the wizarding population nor the student population can be resolved. You also seemed to have overlooked keywords in my statement like - 'appears', 'fairy large' (not huge), and 'if/then' *IF* we start with the *supposition* that the wizard economy indicates a *fairly large* population *then* we must reconcile the missing students. So starting out accepting the *supposition* for sake of arguement and illustration, I have given a plausable argument accounting for those missing students. You also missed that part where I said "Can I prove that? Not if my life depended on it." So how large is 'fairly large'? There is a whole business district in Diagon Alley; food of all types, potions, magical instruments, transportation devices, Owl Emporium, plus a magical menagerie, clothing, cauldrons and other accessories, liquor/beer/wine/ale, which means wineries, distilleries, brewers, and sources of raw material, not to mention all the people to run those beverage makers, bottlers, bottle makers, bottle distributors, things are imported, so there are importers, which would imply that there are also exporters, fresh produce, meat, ice cream which means dairies and dairy farms, which means farms in general, someone has to provide raw material, so we have miners, foundaries, metal smiths, foresters, cotton growers, sheep farmer, fabric weavers, clothes manufactureres, chessboard/piece makers, makers of other toys like gobstones, wizard crackers, two different brand joke shops, chinaware makers, clay diggers, silver smiths, jewlers and jewlery makers, someone sells brooms, that means someone manufacturers broom (at least 3, I think. Comet, Cleansweep, and ???? those are brands, not models.), someone provides the raw materials, someone must blow the glass for glassware, someone laid the streets, someone built the buildings, someone created glass for the windows, someone crafted the wood for furniture and the bar in the Leaky Cauldron. Hogsmeade is the only all wizarding village in the UK and seems to be a pretty good sized small town, I live in town of 400 and Hogsmeade seems bigger than that, it also implies that the are wizarding villages integrated into other non-wizarding villages, all those towns need all the goods, services, craftsman, carpenters, cabinet makers, food, and raw material that the other towns need. They have an international bank that seems to hold substantial wealth. That means vault makers, and coin minters. Speaking of wealth and vault, they seem to have an aweful lot of vaults for only 20,000 or 30,000 people, or 2,000 or 3,000 depending on your opinion. They have hotels/inns; in fact I think there are two in Hogsmeade, there are none in my hometown of 400, and a one small one in a nearby town of 1,500. To support the economy, *I* see, I personally estimate the total population around 6 figures. Can I prove that? No, I already told you I couldn't, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. -end bboy_mn this part- > > :-) > Wendy > (Who thinks that Hogwarts is the only wizarding school in the UK - > ... ... ... And who also believes there can be no more than 800 > students at Hogwarts, based on the numbers provided at the > Gryffindor/Slytherin quidditch match in PoA. How many fewer than 800 > depends ... ... ... > So, I'd guess that total Hogwarts student population is somewhere > between 600 and 775, and probably closer to the larger number. bboy_mn: Yeah, that's about my guess too. But even a guess that large has trouble extrapolating into enough wizards to match the size of economy that I see. bboy_mn From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Nov 25 16:45:28 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:45:28 -0000 Subject: Dishwasher huddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47134 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: I don't > understand why it is a problem that Dumbledore misleads. Seems it is understood he is in the position to do that being that he is the known leader of the opposition. It is his job to misdirect the bad guy. Just the WW does not know the bad guy is back, but when he is, Dumbledore *does* tell them." They don't want to believe in a Dumbledore that > is not a good old grandfather patting his favorite grandson Harry onthe head. We will *never* be able to convince them otherwise." << I don't have a problem with human!Dumbledore. In fact, if we can stipulate that MD!Dumbledore *may* be either an egotistical maniac or simply carried away by his own cleverness (Sirius Black!), I will have no further objection to the theory. Not that I would agree with it, but it would be at least plausible to me. Suppose there is a brilliant but aging doctor who discovers that the enemies of his country are amassing a supply of weaponized virus. As a result of his secret researches, he realizes that the virus is not as deadly as the enemy thinks. If it is released now, the virus may not spread fast enough to cause an epidemic, but as time goes on, the residual immunity of the population will diminish, leaving them vulnerable. The enemy may also discover the flaws in their research and come up with a deadlier form of the virus. The virus in its dormant form is immortal; it will always be a danger. Knowing he will die of old age and seeing himself as the only hope of managing the inevitable outbreak, our doctor tricks the enemy into releasing the flawed virus. He does not vaccinate the population because that would alert the enemy, and besides, if his plan works, fewer people will die from the weaponized virus than from the vaccine. He does not tell his colleagues what he is going to do, since that would jeopardize the secrecy of the plan. Things go wrong almost at once. The flawed virus does not spread quickly at first, but it strikes down the most vulnerable members of the population: the young (Cedric), the aged (Frank) and the weak (Bertha). Aged himself, the doctor unexpectedly sickens also. At death's door the doctor confesses to his colleagues what he has done. They are shocked, and while they are demoralized the disease takes hold, mutates into a more virulent form, and begins to spread quickly. They have to vaccinate the population at once, but when word of the old doctor's scheme gets out, no one trusts doctors any more. The virus does its work and the enemy wins. Was the doctor wise, or good? Of course, JKR is unlikely to let Voldemort win. But bar meta-thinking, one ought to admit that defeat is at least as much a possibility under Dishwasher as it is without it. Dumbledore is, after all, not "doing nothing" . He is training the next generation to resist evil, he is working tirelessly to encourage people to unite and to forgive their differences and he is doing everything in his power to alert people to the danger, including sending his spy out to discover what Voldemort plans to do next. Pippin thinking that maybe she shouldn't have baited Cindy by claiming not to be afraid of the paddle and hoping this post does not sound menacing. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 16:54:20 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:54:20 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts snobbery (related: wizard schools) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47135 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only time that we are told that hogwarts is the only school is from Hagrid, who went there. Now, there are people who are so snobbish (bit like the malfloy's) who insist that their child goes to Eton or Cambridge as they are the 'only' schools fit for them. Could a consideration like that have applied whenever we learn that Hogwarts is the only school? > > Chris bboy_mn responds: Sorry, JKRowling said it in an interview. I don't have a reference to the interview but I'm sure others will back me up. I would like to see it again, if someone has a link. What I would like it to say is that Hogwarts is the only school of it's kind in the UK. Which would imply that there are other schools of other kinds in the UK, and that in turn would support my theory of One Hogwarts College level school, and a few more limited magic schools. I could never get that lucky though. Link? bboy_mn From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Nov 25 16:59:49 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:59:49 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Snape/Vodemort Musings References: Message-ID: <3DE25705.1DC1136A@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47136 Janet Anderson wrote: > > > The Polyjuice Potion only lasts one hour. Snape would have to either > do his > spying very quickly, or find a way to extend the Potion's effect. > (Not that either of these is necessarily impossible.) > > Janet Anderson > Crouch/Moody had to drink it once an hour too and he pulled it off. I do not think DE meetings would run over an hour. Due to chances of being noticed by the Aurors, I doubt the DE meetings last long. Voldemort has to get the meetings over with quickly before the MOM investigates all that magic use in one area. And this is a Muggle place too, even more suspicious. What, you say? How would the MOM know that?? If they know there is magic being used by 'students' somehow, mostly far less complex magic then Apparation, then they would certainly detect a load of people apparating to a graveyard for no clear reason and get suspicious and want to send a few people to investigate... soon as they can get the right people to approve the investigation, sign papers or whatever keeps them from doing it that moment, but still presenting enough of a pressure to get things over with quickly on Volde's part so he doesn't get discovered and find himself up to his red eyes in aurors.. As for Voldemort locking up new DEs for an hour.. Why would he be that paranoid? Why risk alienating your new followers by locking them up. He is too much an egomaniac to think that anyone willingly accepting the dark mark would be working for the other side anyways. Snape got his dark mark before he turned spy. He could easily switch places with some other DE if he wanted to and the chance presented itself. Snape cannot show himself to Voldemort as himself, that is for sure. "One, who I believe has left me forever ... he will be killed, of course" We know Snape is not a coward. He didn't run, he stayed at Hoggwarts. So there is no way Snape can just pop in and say 'sorry I missed the meeting, bit of traffic, you know. Can I just get a copy of the 'minutes' from the secretary and get back to my potions?' Volde would toast his muffins on the spot.. and send him back to Hoggwarts in a matchbox.. No, if he does go back to spying, he would HAVE to do it in disguise. What Dumbledore sent him to do may be a total surprise to all of us and having nothing to do with any clues we have. #1. Send back as a spy? Difficult, unless its in disguise as Snape can't very well pop back in as himself after 'leaving Volde forever'. Volde knows darn well Snape turned spy now and there's no amount of quick talking that could save Snape's bacon from that frying pan... #2. Send to Azkaban to get rid of the dememtors? Are you kidding? By himself? He is a powerful wizard, but it would take all the aurors in the MOM to deal with the dementors, as there are a good number of them. It not like he would have to deal with just one and Fudge would have his head if he removed them after he said NO. As to weither Snape can cast a Patronus, we cannot be sure what his 'happy thoughts' are. Maybe he pictures Sirious or Lockhart being beaten senseless? Hard to say, but I am sure he can cast it. #3. Assassin? No, I can't see Dumbledore having Snape kill anyone. Its not in character for Dumbledore at all to approve that sort of thing. #4. Send to warn the heads of the other magic schools since the MOM is keeping things 'hushed'? Maybe, but that doesn't seem that dangerous that Dumbledore would look that worried. #5. Send to plant magical 'bugs' to spy on Voldemort or his follower or their homes to track their movements.. Well, just because Hermione didn't find charms and such that allow spying/bugging, doesn't mean they don't exist. They may not have books available to students on that sort of thing. Could be 'secret' magic that only aurors or the most powerful wizards might know of. Would allow Snape to spy without presenting himself as a target, but would be dangerous to go out and plant the magic 'bugs' as he could get caught and have to fight his way out. #6. Send to speak with 'contacts'. Every good spy has contacts through which they can get information 2nd hand. Maybe Dumbledore sent Snape to Knockturn Alley to speak to a few 'contacts'. This is dangerous as Knockturn Alley is dangerous to begin with, plus Snape might get singled out by a DE who happens to be there and wants to win brownie points with the boss... Just a few ideas on what Snape might have been sent to do. Based somewhat on both what we know from the books and how spies might work. Snape 007? Hello.. My name is Snape.. Severus Snape 007. Now all he needs is a broomstick that turns into a submarine... Jazmyn From Audra1976 at aol.com Mon Nov 25 17:49:32 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:49:32 EST Subject: Wizard Population and Other Schools Message-ID: <43.14e9ee41.2b13bcac@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47137 bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: << *IF* we start with the *supposition* that the wizard economy indicates a *fairly large* population *then* we must reconcile the missing students. So starting out accepting the *supposition* for sake of arguement and illustration, I have given a plausable argument accounting for those missing students. >> Right, there's no evidence in the books that there are alternative means of education for wizards besides Hogwarts, so this is all supposition. I agree with bboy_mn when he says that logically, the inns, the bank vaults, the businesses, etc. would indicate a larger wizarding population than the children at Hogwarts and their families reflect--especially considering that the wizarding population would be growing, if wizard families are marrying into muggle families more. Well, we all know this is just a made-up world, and JK Rowling can invent as many inns and businesses as she wants even if there's not enough people in her world that would be needed to keep them successfully running in the real world. But it's fun to speculate about what might be out there in that world that Harry (who is basically our narrator) still does not know about. I like to think that there are other smaller institutions of learning in the WW. We know the Founders were pioneers in setting up a school for wizards 1000 years ago, but I can't imagine that nobody else has done it in the years since--nothing as big as Hogwarts, but I can imagine, for example, a small private witches academy somewhere in the British isles, or the idea of witches or wizards that take on single apprentices (they could have maybe 10 apprentices over the course of a lifetime), or maybe sharing magical knowledge and philosophy in small schools of young people along the lines of Socrates'. Maybe some young witches and wizards are home-schooled. Another idea of mine comes from the way that religious education was done where I grew up (and maybe this concept is strictly American, I don't know, not being that worldly-wise). Catholic children went to the public school along with everyone else, but they are not allowed to teach religion there (separation of Church and state), so the Catholic children would get together after school and on weekends and receive their own special classes in religion somewhere else. So maybe in other cities that have a wizarding population integrated with a muggle population, the young wizards and witches go to muggle schools along with their peers (to blend in, so the muggles won't be suspicious), and they also get special instruction in magic from one or maybe a group of wizards, meeting in a secret place so many hours a week. Audra From genibee at yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 18:35:04 2002 From: genibee at yahoo.com (Mr. Parker) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:35:04 -0000 Subject: Big pointer to Snape as Vampire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47138 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "clicketykeys" wrote: > > Hm. I'm not sure I agree with this. I think the Snape wordplay would be a false latinization (not a word, I know, I know) of 'severe' for his first name, and a play on 'snake' for his last name. So we have an untrustworthy character who is strict to the point of severity. Sounds like Snape to me. > Just to point out, Severus is an actual Latin name. Septimus Severus was one of the Roman Emperors (reigned from 198-211). He fought tribes in Britain and has a nice triumphal arch still standing in Rome. Genevieve From jodel at aol.com Mon Nov 25 18:42:09 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:42:09 EST Subject: Mrs Figg's function Message-ID: <188.11804d91.2b13c901@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47139 Karen states; >>I think that the protection Harry has while he is at the Dursley's may have something to do with Mrs. Figg....I think she is who keeps Voldemort away while he's at his relatives house.<< I think that that is certainly her function. But I suspect that it may be both simpler and a bit more complex than that. I think the spell that Dumbledore set up requires a periodic refresh. Plus, somebody really ought to be monitoring as to whether the spell has encountered any hostile magical attempts to locate or attack Harry while he is at the Dursleys. None of the Dursleys are capable of this even if they were willing. Ergo, Dumbledore needs an opperative in the general vicinity to keep the system running and to report any encounters. She doesn't have to be right on top of the situation to do this, so being two streets away is all right. But Dumbledore cannot do it himself, even though he set the system up, because of his duites as Headmaster. Once Harry went away to Hogwarts the spell maintenance was not longer so crutial, but in all of the four years that Harry has been at Hogwarts, there has been sufficient indication of Dark activity going on to warrant someone activly monitoring the wards, even in Harry's absence. And possibly still. We don't actually KNOW that it will be Mrs Figg who will be the next (doomed! they're doomed!) DADA teacher, after all. -JOdel From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Mon Nov 25 18:49:12 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:49:12 -0000 Subject: Unforgivables Dark Magic? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47140 I've been poking about the archives and found some interesting discussions on what constitutes Dark Magic, which have left me with a question. Does it ever state in the books that the Unforgivables are Dark Magic? Eileen From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 19:11:52 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:11:52 -0000 Subject: Severus and Albinus = Snape and Dumbledore (WAS Big pointer to Snape as Vampire) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47141 Genevieve ("Mr. Parker") wrote: > Just to point out, Severus is an actual Latin name. Septimus > Severus was one of the Roman Emperors (reigned from 198-211). He > fought tribes in Britain and has a nice triumphal arch still > standing in Rome. Now me: So glad you brought that up. I'm convinced that JKR gave Snape the first name of "Severus" after that very Roman emperor. And I think that emperor's history is a clue for what's to come in the HP series. Emperor Septimius Severus tricked his opponent, Albinus, into not opposing his taking over as emperor by promising Albinus that Albinus would be his successor (Severus bestowed upon Albinus the title "Caesar," which is intended to pronounce that Albinus would be Severus' successor). Since Severus was already an old man, Albinus bought the deal and let Severus take over as emperor. However, later that year, Severus reneged on his deal and named his own son Geta "Caesar." Severus then declared war against Albinus, and Albinus committed suicide when he saw that he was surrounded. Take out the "in" from "Albinus" and you get - Albus! So this suggests to me that Snape will betray Dumbledore. There are some other parallels as well - Emperor Severus was revengeful and cruel, as is Severus Snape. Emperor Severus was also very superstitious, and believed that the stars told his destiny, so perhaps this will play into our next sighting of Firenze? Since the ghost of Albinus haunted Severus' sleep, perhaps Dumbledore's ghost will also haunt Snape's sleep. We can only hope! ~Phyllis with apologies to all of the Snape fans out there From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 19:26:17 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:26:17 -0000 Subject: Significance of Peter Pettigrew's Name (WAS: Big pointer to Snape as Vampire) In-Reply-To: <20021125141738.37529.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47142 Barb (psychic_serpent) wrote: > (It is notable that neither James Potter's name nor Peter > Pettigrew's name really point to their Animagus forms, and Minerva > McGonagall's doesn't either.) Now me: This is a thought that just occurred to me over the weekend - perhaps Pettigrew's first name is "Peter" because he betrayed the Potters as Simon Peter betrayed Jesus ("three times before the cock crows"). ~Phyllis From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Nov 25 19:31:50 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:31:50 -0000 Subject: Unforgivables Dark Magic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47143 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "lucky_kari" wrote: > I've been poking about the archives and found some interesting > discussions on what constitutes Dark Magic, which have left me with a question. Does it ever state in the books that the Unforgivables are Dark Magic? << Sirius implies they are not. He says that Barty Crouch Sr. was "always very outspoken against the Dark Side" (GoF 27) and yet he "authorized the use of the Unforgiveable Curses against suspects." Barty fought violence with violence, but not Dark with Dark. I think Dark Magic must damage the user. Hagrid says when wizards who go over to the Dark Side, nothing and nobody matters to them anymore, doesn't he? (Can't find my PoA, but it's in the Three Broomsticks scene) It sounds as though the use of Dark Magic eventually destroys one's capacity for empathy and remorse. In the Potterverse, people can turn themselves into rats and beetles, so why not into sociopaths? That would fit with old Crouch's state when Harry meets him in the Forest. He obviously hasn't lost the capability to feel remorse, though he's been using Imperius heavily for many years to control young Barty. Pippin From jodel at aol.com Mon Nov 25 19:41:08 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:41:08 EST Subject: Snape and the Potters Message-ID: <132.17992998.2b13d6d4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47144 aja_1991 reminds us; >>You've suggested that the male voice Harry heard urging Lily to take Harry and run was not James, and suggested that voice was either Lupin, Snape, or Lucius Malfoy<< Actually, the only canon evidence (circumstancial, but canon) for ANYone other than Voldemort being present is an argument for the presence of Peter Pettigrew. (The matter of Voldemort's wand is still unexplained but suggestive. More on this below.) IF the voice Harry heard was Peter's, then we have some hint of a cover story having been planned. (Peter having shown up first to "give the alarm" that the secret had been forced out of him and that Voldemort was coming. The offer to try to "hold him off" while Lily made a getaway would have been covered by a stunning spell "I don't know why he didn't kill me" and with the news of Sirius's murder -- which was always phase 2 of the opperation -- Peter would have been left to console the widow, and keep on spying.) BTW, I like the possibility that James had already been killed. It would make it even more likely that Lily had taken refuge in the Muggle world. (Godric's Hollow is probably a wizarding district tucked inside a larger Muggle community of some other name, much as Diagon Alley is in London.) The question of how Voldemort got his wand back is one of the chief links we have between him and Pettigrew. Because unless Voldemort took his wand with him in his disembodied state (not disproven, but seems unlikely) there is no way in which he could have had his OWN wand back early enough to kill Bertha Jorkins unless Peter brought it to him. We saw Peter steal Lupin's wand in order to make his escape at the end of Poa, so he evidently DID leave his own at his staged "murder" site, and had not kept Voldemort's with him. But he must have stashed it somewhere for safekeeping, retrieved it and left with it for Albania. It is uncertain whether he took control of Bertha Jorkins using Voldemort's wand or Lupin's. But the breaking of the memory spell that Crouch placed on her was almost certainly done internally by way of possession by VaporMort a la Quirrel. Peter brought her to Voldemort, who possessed her, proceeded to shred her mind for whatever she knew, and with the use of her body set up the processes necessary to make the transition from VaporMort to BabyMort. This must have been a two-person task, or he would have done it earlier. By the time he made the transition and released her body, Bertha would have been dying anyway and the AK merely finished her off. For the record. I'm not at all convinced that Peter wore the Dark Mark while he was spying inside Dumbledore's organization. The one he has now may be a fresh one he got in Albania. >>It does suggest that the voice belongs to someone Harry has never (yet) met, which would rule out people like Sirius, Peter, Remus, Lucius, Fudge, Arthur Weasley, Hagrid, Dumbledore, Snape, Flitwick, Macnair, Crouch (Sr. and Jr.), etc. << Er. At the time of this particular scene with Remus Lupin, Harry had not yet met either Sirius OR Peter, either of the Crouches, or even McNair. He knew none of their voices. -JOdel From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 15:52:07 2002 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:52:07 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47145 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "aja_1991" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > > > You've suggested that the male voice Harry heard urging Lily to take > Harry and run was not James, and suggested that voice was either > Lupin, Snape, or Lucius Malfoy. > > My concern with this theory: Harry has met all three of these men, > and has spoken to them. He knows what their voices sound like. > Wouldn't he by now be able to connect the voice in the flashback to > one of them? Yes, I recognize that voices can "age," but all three > were grown men at the time of the Potters' deaths, and I don't think > the ensuing 12-14 years of time would change their voices > dramatically enough that Harry couldn't recognize them. at the mystery... Ah, the fly in the ointment. Some possible theories...far reaching but here you go. Harry was not in full control of his faculties when he heard these voices. He also WANTED to hear his father. He convinced HIMSELF that he heard his father. Would he recognize his father's real voice? Snape: Harry usually hears Snape's voice in a quiet, "silky" tone, OR in a spitting tantrum. This was neither. Also, he would have NO REASON AT ALL to even attempt to try to place Snape in the scene in his head so any "hint of familiarity" he noticed in the voice he could have easily attributed to his fuzzy memory of Daddy. Again, would he recognize his father's voice? I could say the same about Malfoy but as I have no reason to believe Lucius Malfoy would be warning anyone about the approach of LV. I don't think Lupin figures into the Godric's Hollow scene at all. He MAY have been present at (the possible) earlier killing of James. Melpomene From wind3213 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 18:48:26 2002 From: wind3213 at hotmail.com (Shauna) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:48:26 -0000 Subject: Wizard Population and Other Schools In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47146 One thing I would say about your speculations is that you seem to be saying that all of the resources needed to run the wizarding economy are coming from inside the UK. For instance: fresh > produce, meat, ice cream which means dairies and dairy farms, which > means farms in general, someone has to provide raw material, so we > have miners, foundaries, metal smiths, foresters, cotton growers, > sheep farmer, fabric weavers, clothes manufactureres, chessboard/piece > makers, (etc, etc.) Now, you said that because there are importers there are going to be exporters - but, that's something that would decrease the population, not enlarge it. All the aforementioned things need not come from the UK wizarding population. In fact, it's likely that only a few of these things do. With apparation and the floo network, the wizarding world is likely to be far more globalized than the real world, and already half the things we muggles own are from countries across the world. Yes, there seem to be a variety of stores in Diagon Alley, but they can be chain stores. I doubt the Malfoys and Crabbes and Goyles of the wizarding world would be content to leave the money-making to small businesses. And in that case, you don't need a large population to support those stores. You see brand stores popping up in towns of a half thousand. Another thing that strikes me about Diagon Alley is that it's more a mall than a city. You don't hear about apartment complexes and slums and population problems there - yet it seems to be the focal point for the wizarding community, frequented by Malfoys and Weasleys alike. > They have an international bank that seems to hold substantial wealth. One thing I've wondered is what the international picture is like in the wizarding world. Is the Chinese wizarding government communist? Is the Colombian wizarding community plagued my drugs? The UK is a focal point of the muggle world because of technology and riches, and a long domination of most other parts of the world. If the wizarding world doesn't follow along the same lines, then why should the wizarding economy? For instance, China. If the percentage of wizards to muggles is the same across the world, why then there should be an overwhelming number of Chinese wizards. They should play a major part in international politics and business. Just my 2 galleons. ~ Shauna From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 19:53:00 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:53:00 -0000 Subject: Wizard Population and Other Schools In-Reply-To: <43.14e9ee41.2b13bcac@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47147 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Audra1976 at a... wrote: > AUDRA said in part: > ...edited... I can imagine, ... ... ... the idea of witches or > wizards that take on single apprentices (they could have maybe 10 > apprentices over the course of a lifetime), or maybe sharing magical > knowledge and philosophy in small schools of young people along the > lines of Socrates'. ...edited... > > Audra bboy_mn commnets: Actually, that's exactly how it was done before organized schools. Many old tales of wizard's adventures are really the tales of wizard's apprentices. These tales of wizards are told with the apprentice as the narrator. Classic fairytale/fantasy stories. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 20:15:13 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:15:13 -0000 Subject: Wizard Population and Other Schools In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47148 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Shauna" wrote: > One thing I would say about your speculations is that you seem > to be saying that all of the resources needed to run the wizarding > economy are coming from inside the UK. For instance: > bboy_mn originally said in part: > fresh produce, meat, ice cream which means dairies and dairy > farms, which means farms in general, someone has to provide > raw material, so we have miners, foundaries, metal smiths, > foresters, cotton growers, sheep farmer, fabric weavers, clothes > manufactureres, chessboard/piece makers, (etc, etc.) > -end this part- Shauna replied in part: > Now, you said that because there are importers there are going > to be exporters - but, that's something that would decrease the > population, not enlarge it. All the aforementioned things need > not come from the UK wizarding population. In fact, it's likely that > only a few of these things do. With apparation and the floo > network, the wizarding world is likely to be far more globalized > than the real world, and already half the things we muggles own > are from countries across the world. > > ...edited out a lot of other really good points... > > Just my 2 galleons. > ~ Shauna If we have importers then we have to have someone to consume the imported goods, and we have to have someone to warehouse the goods, and we have to have someone to distribute them, and resell them. The consumers need jobs to earn the money to buy the goods. Those jobs have to come from somewhere. If the market is small then there are few consumers which means there is not much point in importing. If we have exporters, then someone has to make the goods that are exported. As economies grow then tend to become service and technology oriented, and manufacuring is shunted to poorer countries where labor is cheap. So while the manufacturing base in the US is shrinking, the consumption of goods is growing. Our wealth is created by mean other than manufacturing. Enland has always been noted for it's fine English linen, and while not very practical, English flaxen linen is like sleeping in heaven. If it's quality goods, then it is finer than silk. Woolen products from the UK also have a fine reputation. So I have not doubt that there are still substantial goods produced in the UK. After all, Percy's Cauldron Bottom Report established that imported cauldrons are inferior to domestic. So while you made a lot of really good points, I really don't think the existance of import/export throws the economic balance off that much. Of course, we are again into the realm of speculation. Fun, but not productive.... but fun. Really did like a lot of what you said, even though I cut most of it out. bboy_mn From Audra1976 at aol.com Mon Nov 25 20:20:40 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:20:40 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Severus and Albinus = Snape and Dumbledore (WAS Big pointer to Snape as Vampire) Message-ID: <149.357d53d.2b13e018@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47149 erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com writes: << So glad you brought that up. I'm convinced that JKR gave Snape the first name of "Severus" after that very Roman emperor. And I think that emperor's history is a clue for what's to come in the HP series. >> << Take out the "in" from "Albinus" and you get - Albus! So this suggests to me that Snape will betray Dumbledore. >> Me: Not knowing very much at all about Roman Emperors, I just looked up some references, and it seems like Severus was the guy's last name (or third name, however names were organized in those days--the last name might have been the surname). His first name was LUCIUS (Lucius Septimus Severus). And to secure the Caesar position for his SON, he set out to eliminate his two rivals--Albinus (whom you've already connected to Dumbledore), the governor of Britain, and Niger (which means BLACK in Latin), the governor of Syria (which by mere coincidence sounds like Sirius). Lucius Septimus Severus defeated these two and his son joined him as co-ruler of the Empire. If history is going to repeat itself, this plot definitely sounds more up Lucius's alley than Snape's. Also according to what I read, there was a whole Severan Dynasty. I didn't get into any of the other Emperors, but maybe Severus Snape has more in common with one of these other Severuses. Could be. There seems to be no shortage of Luciuses, Marcuses, Severuses, etc. in Roman history. Audra From Audra1976 at aol.com Mon Nov 25 20:25:59 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:25:59 EST Subject: Significance of Peter Pettigrew's Name (WAS: Big pointer to Snape as Vampire) Message-ID: <1c4.2092512.2b13e157@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47150 erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com writes: << This is a thought that just occurred to me over the weekend - perhaps Pettigrew's first name is "Peter" because he betrayed the Potters as Simon Peter betrayed Jesus ("three times before the cock crows"). >> Good one, Phyllis! And what about: his PETTY jealosy of his more powerful friends GREW so great that he betrayed them to get more power for himself. Audra From clicketykeys at yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 19:25:41 2002 From: clicketykeys at yahoo.com (clicketykeys) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:25:41 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47151 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "melclaros" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > > > > being killed. I started to wonder if Harry's dream is actually > something > > of a memory. > I don't know that I'd call it a memory - perhaps a vision, as it seems to occur only while he's unconscious or losing consciousness. > there! Talk about chamber of secrets!) Anyway, I got the distinct > impression from Lupin's reaction that Harry could not POSSIBLY been > hearing Jame's voice. I don't know why, possibly because he had been > killed earlier? Somewhere else? And Lupin knew it. Or perhaps Lupin was surprised at the accuracy of what Harry was describing. He was, after all, only a baby when this happened (Harry, of course, not Lupin!) so the fact that he can bring up these sorts of details would come as a surprise to Lupin. > Now, I don't know if the voice Harry heard was actually Snape trying > to give a final, desperate and doomed warning or if it was, in fact, > James but I am CONVINCED Snape was at Godric's Hollow that night in > Some Capacity. I am also sure he's connected to the "missing" 24 > hours. You have some good ideas there. Snape was in mortal danger > from any DE's who might have also been at the scene and witnessed > this betrayal. A performance like that would CERTAINLY be enough to > cement DD's trust in Severus Snape AND explain why in GoF he would be > reluctant to tell Harry the reasons for that trust. Well, let's put it this way. If it /wasn't/ James who was shouting to Lily, the most logical alternative is for it to be one of Voldemort's supporters. Otherwise you have to come up with a reason for him /not/ to A.K. whoever it is, and from GoF we know that James was killed immediately before Lily. I put forth that the man Harry hears in his vision could be Pettigrew. At that point in PoA, Harry had not met him, so that would explain why he didn't recognize the voice as definitely someone other than James. Lily would, of course, realize that Peter had sold them out and that he was lying to her about delaying Voldemort, but would also know that at that point it didn't really matter. However, I am still unconvinced that it /wasn't/ James. Lupin has strong reactions *each* time Harry mentions having the vision - bottom of p.187, middle of p. 239. This is before he says he heard James. I think that Lupin is concerned for Harry's well-being. -ClicketyKeys (sometimes Philadelphia) From wind3213 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 20:35:13 2002 From: wind3213 at hotmail.com (Shauna) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:35:13 -0000 Subject: Significance of Peter Pettigrew's Name (WAS: Big pointer to Snape as Vampire In-Reply-To: <1c4.2092512.2b13e157@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47152 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Audra1976 at a... wrote: > erisedstraeh2002 at y... writes: > << This is a thought that just occurred to me over the weekend - perhaps > Pettigrew's first name is "Peter" because he betrayed the Potters as > Simon Peter betrayed Jesus ("three times before the cock crows"). >> > > Good one, Phyllis! And what about: his PETTY jealosy of his more powerful > friends GREW so great that he betrayed them to get more power for himself. > > Audra I always looked back on the "pet" in Pettigrew as a sly sort of foreshadowing about his being Scabbers, the Weasleys' pet. But that doesn't really have anything to do with Animagus forms. ~ Shauna From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 21:22:03 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:22:03 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Significance of Peter Pettigrew's Name (WAS: Big pointer to Snape as Vampire References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47153 Shauna: "I always looked back on the "pet" in Pettigrew as a sly sort of foreshadowing about his being Scabbers, the Weasleys' pet. But that doesn't really have anything to do with Animagus forms." Does it not? Sirus is a dog, while miniva is a cat. Could Dumbledore be a bumblebee, and Draco a dragon? Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Mon Nov 25 21:27:04 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 22:27:04 +0100 (CET) Subject: Voices from the past (Re: [HPforGrownups] Snape and the Potters) In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021123212330.0127dbc8@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: <20021125212704.11657.qmail@web21502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47154 I?ve been following the debate about the man?s voice Harry hears while he?s learning how to conjure the Patronus Charm. According to Carol, it?s Severus?s voice, not James?s. That?s an interesting possibility, and I respect it. However, I think that the explanation is more simple, and that Lupin?s reaction to what Harry says is connected to the psychological context of PoA rather than to the attack on Godric?s Hollow. The Harry Potter series is very touching thanks to the humanity JKR gave to her characters, and it?s particularly true about PoA. That an amazing thought about Oedipus?s Complex, the most obvious aspect of this stage in Harry?s initiatory journey. It?s also a very fine painting of painful memories, memories of a broken friendship, of a lost paradise. Once upon a time, there was a gang of brother-like friends, and destiny destroyed it. That?s all the story of the Marauders, and I think that when JKR wrote the Patronus chapter, she was referring to that topic. All that Harry learns while he?s trying to conjure the charm is directly connected to the episodes of the Shrieking Shack and to the appearance of the stag Patronus at the end of the novel. And there, JKR is not only painting Harry?s own pain and efforts to get out of it; she?s also painting, very delicately, Lupin?s silent suffering. Lupin has been suffering for twelve years since the tragedy of Godric?s Hollow, and not only because he is a werewolf. His moral suffering is probably worst. When the Potters died, he lost everything. He lost his friends, and he lost his illusions about friendship. One among the inseparable Marauders was a traitor and caused the death of three innocents. His only chance of living a ?normal? life, of being accepted the way he was, was shattered. What happened in Godric?s Hollow is certainly the worst moment in Lupin?s life. Now, what is happening during the lesson? Lupin sees Harry fainting because of the suffering the Dementors remind him. He teaches Harry a charm that needs a happy memory as a support, but he discovers that in the boy?s mind there?s no happy memory strong enough to help him to resist the Dementor?s assault. That?s terrible, because instead of helping his friend?s son, he makes him suffer. The worst is yet to come: there are tears in Harry?s eyes, because he just heard his father?s voice. The following dialogue makes no doubt: ?I heard my dad?, Harry mumbled.?That?sthe first time I?ve ever heard him ? he tried to take on Voldemort himself, to give my mum time to run for it ? < > ?You heard James?? said Lupin in a strange voice. ?Yeah ?< > ?Why ? you didn?t know my dad, did you?? ?I ? I did, as a matter of fact,? said Lupin. ?We were friends at Hogwarts. Listen, Harry ? perhaps we should leave it here tonight. This charm is ridiculously advanced I shouldn?t have suggested putting you through this ? (UK paperback edition, p 178) Lupin?s last sentence shows how sorry he is for what is happening. He probably thinks he?s torturing James?s son, and so he doesn?t want to go further in the lesson (he should give Snape some teaching advice!). The dialogue shows also that he is into a huge trouble, but I don?t think it?s because he finds odd James being at Godric?s Hollow. I believe, simply, that what happens to Harry is a real traumatism to him: it reminds him his worst memories. Furthermore, as he knows what it is like to suffer, he shares Harry?s pain. If what he says in this chapter seems odd, it?s because his character is still keeping the huge secret of a werewolf doom, of a broken friendship, and of lost illusions. Nevertheless, just like Harry, Lupin is caught up by the voices from the past, and will have to face them. Iris --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kela_bit at netvision.net.il Mon Nov 25 20:38:35 2002 From: kela_bit at netvision.net.il (Katsmall the Wise) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 22:38:35 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Wizard Population and Other Schools References: Message-ID: <3DE28A4B.9050006@netvision.net.il> No: HPFGUIDX 47155 Steve wrote: > > > > :-) > > Wendy > > (Who thinks that Hogwarts is the only wizarding school in the UK - > > ... ... ... And who also believes there can be no more than 800 > > students at Hogwarts, based on the numbers provided at the > > Gryffindor/Slytherin quidditch match in PoA. How many fewer than 800 > > depends ... ... ... > > So, I'd guess that total Hogwarts student population is somewhere > > between 600 and 775, and probably closer to the larger number. > > > bboy_mn: > > Yeah, that's about my guess too. But even a guess that large has > trouble extrapolating into enough wizards to match the size of economy > that I see. > > bboy_mn You have got to remember, that wizards live by far more then muggles. The average muggle lives about 70-80 years. Wizards, as we know, live far more. How much more? I can only guess, but my guess is they live to be about 200. That would mean that their population would be three times as much as the population a muggle school as big as Hogwarts emits. e.g. My home town has three schools about the size of Hogwarts each. My home town has about 600,000 people in it (I think, I'm not sure... Naama2486, am I right?). That means each school here emits about 200,000 people. Hogwarts would thus emit 3 times more - 600,000 people. It's all Math. Katsmall the Wise From indigo at indigosky.net Mon Nov 25 21:30:50 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:30:50 -0000 Subject: TBAY :Lily's Sacrifice was a SOPPY CHARM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47156 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "The Real Makarni" wrote: > Roo was sitting in the Tavern at Theory Bay, celebrating his > birthday with a quiet night on the town. He wasn't paying much > attnention- he had eavesdropped on a few of the Snape theories, > but he didn't find Snape a particularly intriguing character, so he > was now slowly lulling into a gentle slumber at the bar, trying to > work out what was so damned appealing about George. . . > > All of a sudden he shot up, as a wave of unbelievable cold swep > through him. A quick glance around revealed that Amandageist > had entered the room. Guessing that she'd probably be > contributing to the Snape theorising, Roo went back to his > stupour > > "I," Amandageist announced, "have had a Thought. More > accurately, I had a blinding > insight where several people's thoughts came together. I was > browsing over > on the main list, since nobody seems to want to talk to me here, > and I read > something that Jodel said. . . " > She droned on for a while, and Roo didn't bat an eyelid, until > she waved a hand and a large, floating screen appeared. Roo > loved visual aids in theories. It had several holes > burned in it. "Ah, yes," Amandageist said. "Sorry about that. > Sometimes my > irritation with those blinking and pop-up ads overcomes > me...and the quote > is rather long, sorry." > > Roo perked up and began to be interested, until he read what it > said: > > > "Message 39315, Love as a Spell Component: > > My beloved, Jan, is a long ponderer and came to me today with a > Harry Potter > thought (as he calls them). He has braided several threads > together and presented me with several novel takes on things, > which I will now proceed to > share. > > There has been general dissatisfaction with the idea that Lily's > dying for > Harry was what saved him from Voldemort. Plenty of people > must have flung > themselves in front of others in Voldemort's long career as a > Bad Wizard; > why should this one time be special or different? > > We are told the Potters knew Voldemort was after them. Jan > suggests that the > Potters did more than hide. He suggested that Dumbledore > worked with Lily, > who was very good at charms, far in advance to set a spell on > Harry that > would be activated in a worst-case scenario when there was no > other way to > protect him. A shield or protection that required Lily to do what > she did, > integrating her love into the rest of the spell and completing it." > > Roo didn't wait to read any more. > "That's it," he muttered, as he stormed not-so-subtly towards the > door, "It's about time a ship was built". > He stormed striaght down to the dockyards, and began furiously > lashing together planks, and scrounging for the appropriate > cannons. > "Lily, set up a spell to protect to Harry, that involves her death? I > don't think so." He wasn't really talking to anyone, but he did have > a reputation for often talking to himself. > "That just contradicts Dumbledore's little speech at the end of > Book 1, doesn't? What word was used? 'inscrutable' was one, I > think. . . or at least something similar. The whole point is that > Voldemort *can't* understand it- if it's a contrived spell, well, he > could understand it then, couldn't he? > Yes, there couldn't be a constructed spell manipulated by the > Potters, because that undermines the whole meaning of the first > book! It shakes the very foundations of PS! Dumbledore's little > love-speech is a very nice, big cannon, they won't be able to sink > that one easily. . .How dare they try to undermine the purity of > Lily's sacrifice? " > Roo pulled up some blankets to prepare to sleep on his new > ship. As he drifted off, he couldn't help but mutter, "This better not > have anything to do with Magic Dishwasher. . . " > > Roo awoke at dawn the next day, a little hazy as to his exact > whereabouts. Then he remembered, jumped up and looked > around. He was standing in the middle of a Viking longboat, with > one, massive, cannon on one side, with "LOVE" emblazoned > across it. Instead of the obligatory Dragon-headed prow, he > noticed his new ship had an exquisitely carved figure of a > woman clutching a baby, a look of forlorn hope in her terrified > eyes. "Not bad," he muttered, "although I must say, I do seem to > have gone a bit over board. How on earth did manage this is one > night?" > Then he remembered something else. He snapped his gaze > upwards, and saw (to his slight embarassment) an acronym- > SOPPY CHARM (Sacrifice of Purity. Perfect? Yes. Contrived? > Hardly a Reasoned Move). "A little, ah, soppy", he conceded "but > at least it gets the job done. Yes, I think I'm quite happy- the > purity, futility, the LOVE of Lily's sacrifice was enough to protect > Harry," he reassured himself. "Lily's sacrifice was augmented > enough because Voldemort, for some reason, was willing to > spare her life. That's the real question. Why did Voldemort want > to spare Lily?" > Then he sat back down on the floor of his brand new spanking > ship, and waited to see what, if any, reaction, Theory Bay would > have. > > Roo, who couldn't resist putting a MD reference in there, even > though it wasn't relevant A little purple dinghy boat floats into the Bay, just in time for its single occupant to hear and see the situation getting Roo all worked up, and the creation of the SOPPY CHARM ship, with its single immense cannon. "Lily's love being a waste?" said the woman softly, shaking her head. She wore a robe of purple, with a Gryffindor scarf 'round her neck and a Hufflepuff sweater-vest over her T-shirt. Inside the robes, perhaps inspired by Lockhart, were patches, but only the Sirius Apologist and Sociopath! Stomper ones were visible as she popped out of her dinghy and knocked on the hull of the SOPPY CHARM. With her wand, she wrote, "I believe I have a theory that may sort of agree with both sides." She unlooped the scarf and shook it out. From the end streamed a banner with a new acronym on the end of it: ABSOLUTE PUTRID SNITCH [Altruistic, Besieged Sacrifice of Love Unique To Evans! Pettigrew's Unforgivable Transgression Resulted In Dire Situation Necessitating Immediate Transference Charming Harry!] "Which is to say," Indigo continued, "That if Peter hadn't betrayed the family as Secret-Keeper, Lily's love might not have been enough to spare Harry -- since Voldemort was all too sure of himself when he came fo the boy, and regardless of whether Voldemort wanted to spare Lily, could not understand why she would do so -- when obviously the jig was up and they'd been sold out. But Peter's soul was tainted, and Lily's soul was pure. "The two balanced each other out, and Lily's facility with charms tipped the scales and is what made it possible to manage where other sacrifices of love did not necessarily have the same force or strength to protect a life. Harry's life force was protected because Lily's stood in front of it. Literally like taking a muggle bullet. "Like most megalomaniacs," Indigo concluded, "Voldemort thinks the rest of the world far less clever than himself, and never bothers to consider the powers of good have just as much clout in their way as evil does." Indigo tucked her wand away and let the words trail her into the Tavern, where she ordered a butterbeer to chase the chill. "Maybe it is soppy," she said to herself, "But the power of love has defeated evil, and performed miracles for centuries in literature." --Indigo [who finally comprehends TBAY] From Sunnylove0 at aol.com Mon Nov 25 21:27:19 2002 From: Sunnylove0 at aol.com (Sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:27:19 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and the Potters Message-ID: <18a.11c66106.2b13efb7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47157 In a message dated 11/24/2002 10:52:20 PM Mountain Standard Time, kaityf at jorsm.com writes: > Me: > I am too now. My first inclination is to say that it's Snape who's yelling > > out the warning, although could give him away to Voldemort, although the > voice tells Lilly to take Harry and run and he'd hold "him" (meaning > Voldemort) off. I suppose it would be possible that Snape arrived first to > > warn Lilly. She may have had just enough time to run and grab Harry, but > that's it. Maybe Snape stalled LV for a short while and thought Lilly had > had a chance to get away. If the voice doesn't belong to James, which > seems likely, and it doesn't belong to Snape either, who could it belong > to? If as I guessed, Lucius was there as well, it certainly wouldn't be > Lucius warning Lilly. I hope we get more hints about that night in book 5. > > Some thoughts: 1) Where the heck *is* James? We know from the shades in the graveyard (order controversy aside for the moment) that James was AK'd directly before or after Lily, so he must have been caught by Voldemort or someone using V's wand at least sometime that night. 2) Why would Snape do this? And why would Voldemort not just zap him? Even with LOLLIPOPS and James's life debt in play, (if you like) this is tantamount to suicide. 3) I wouldn't doubt that Lupin is still upset over the Potters' deaths and probably shocked that Harry can remember this, even with a dementor's help. The Queen of Serpents [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 16:34:32 2002 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (dangermousehq at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:34:32 -0800 Subject: Snape and Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47158 Legally Blonde wrote: I think that Snape is Dumbledores son. I ahve a lot of things >that are evidence to such, but I'd like to hear what all of you >think. Any comments? Ideas? > >--"Legally Blonde" > There's nothing I love more than far-fetched outlandish theories, but I'm afraid I'll need evidence (ie canon) for it to be considered (by me at least). === I'd love to hear your evidence. It's very intriguing. I'm doubtful about Severus and Sirius being brothers though. That'd just be freaky, wouldn't it? Sirius trying to go and kill his brother--sometimes I'd like to kill my brother, but to go and lock him in a tunnel with a werewolf? Well, again, I'd love to hear your evidence. -DM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wynnde1 at aol.com Mon Nov 25 23:01:29 2002 From: wynnde1 at aol.com (wynnde1 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:01:29 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] TBAY - Moral Relativism?Dicentra look (was Snape the Killer) Message-ID: <158.17f821c1.2b1405c9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47159 Sitting at a table with Dicentra and Eileen, Wendy finds that she is feeling a bit nervous about continuing this conversation. She doesn't want to step on any toes, (or ruffle any feathers - WAY to many feathers around here for that! ) and she knows from personal experience with her real-life family and aquaintances that her views are not always easily accepted in the current "political climate." But, taking a deep breath, she decides to forge ahead anyway, as it really is a subject of great importance to her. She turns to Dicentra, and begins, "Earlier you said, 'Having moral courage sometimes means doing one awful thing to prevent something worse from happening.' And I made the comment that that's not my definition of moral courage. I think it takes more courage to choose a path of non-violence." Dicentra shakes her head. "Non-violence might not be an option in some cases. Non-violence works only if your enemy has a moral code but is blind to the fact that they're doing something evil. But Ghandi himself said that against the truly immoral and brutal, non-violence wouldn't work at all, because the immoral don't *care* if they're being immoral, and showing them their evil doesn't cause the least bit of remorse." "Yes, but even ignoring the issue of who defines what is truly 'immoral and brutal'," Wendy adds, "this isn't solely about defeating your enemy, is it? After all, an argument can be made that there are worse things than death. I would say that turning into the thing you are fighting would be worse than dying for your principles. Fortunately, I've not yet had to "walk that talk" in my "real life," but this is part of what I don't like about Assassin!Snape, and like even less about GivingTheOkayToAssassinSnape!Dumbledore. If you use terrorist tactics to fight terrorism, you have just become a terrorist yourself. Full Stop. In my humble opinion, that is. "I overheard someone here say that different rules of morality apply during war.* And while I'll agree that this is a widely held opinion, I think it is not only wrong, but a dangerous thing to believe. It is a belief like this that opens the door to things like the dehumanization that Eileen and Judy have been discussing in their Choleric!Snape discussion. True morality doesn't waver. That's not to say that values and mores can't shift over time. But *true* morality - what really constitutes good and evil, if you will - doesn't waver. If it does, then the whole concept of morality becomes meaningless. And maybe that's the truth, after all - that all morality really is just a human, societal construct and is, ultimately, meaningless. But that's not what I'm wanting to argue here. My point isn't necessarily the relation between two differing sets of moral codes, but consistency within one. No matter what your moral code is, it seems that some things should stand. If killing people is wrong today, then it's still wrong tomorrow." Dicentra says, "As a way of determining what is good and what is evil, 'moral relativism' really bites: It's a compass without a needle. Ultimately, moral relativism says that no one can ever be wrong--no one is ever mistaken, blinded, misled, deluded or operating under false assumptions. To cite a contemporary example, a certain large country has recently come under attack by a group of folks who believe that the large country is a threat to them. It is possible to see how this group of folks might genuinely believe that the large country can seem threatening--or even *be* threatening--to the group of folks. The group of folks are genuinely wrong in this case. " Wendy frowns. "Maybe I'm not really talking about moral relativism here. But to follow up your example, if that first group of folks comes along and crashes a plane into one of the country's major metropolitan areas, that doesn't mean that it's now okay for the country to go out and kill those folks. It would still be wrong. And to say "different rules apply now, this is war" is just a rationalisation. A convincing one, one which will get most of us through the day and not trouble our sleep at night. But it doesn't make the killing that happens any less wrong, nor does it mean that the country would not be breaking a moral code by which it previously claimed to be living. So if, under this rationalisation that "they deserved it," or "there is no other way to stop them and we must protect ourselves," you commit acts of terror, then you have become exactly the thing you are fighting against - a terrorist. "But, in any case, to bring this back on topic, I guess it isn't our opinions about morality and good and evil which matter here, it's what JKR believes. Or at least, the framework she is using in the Potterverse." Dicentra says, "Moral relativism isn't an issue in the Dumbledore/Voldemort war. JKR has already set that forth in the now-famous statement from PS/SS 'There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it.' Voldemort's side don't perceive themselves as being 'right'--they want what they want and they'll do anything to get it. For that reason, Dumbledore isn't always going to have a clean means to victory. He will often have to choose between the lesser of two evils. And if it so happens that executing Karkaroff will bring Snape back into Voldemort's good graces, for the purpose of getting vital intelligence and an operative on the inside, then that will have to be what he does." "Well," Wendy begins, "I think you are only half right in saying 'moral relativism isn't an issue in the Dumbledore/Voldemort war.' It may not be an issue for Voldemort, but it is certainly one for Dumbledore - or should be, I think. If he does as you suggest," Wendy says, looking disconcerted and more than a bit sad, "he's no better than Voldemort, is he? Well, perhaps that's a bit extreme, but I would definitely say that he's not lived up to the moral code I expect from Dumbledore, and from the "good guys." I, for one, would be extremely disappointed if Dumbledore, and Redeemed!Snape were to premeditate a killing as part of their fight against Voldemort. *That* is what would really muddy the waters between good and evil for me." Wendy, (Who hopes she managed to keep this post on-topic, after allowing her inner-Quaker and inner-Buddhist help her decide what to say. :-) AND who has now spent so much time on this post, that the others she wanted to answer are going to have to wait ). * I'm sorry - I don't remember who said this, and couldn't find the reference in any of the posts I've still saved in my inbox. I just don't have time to go searching back through the past week's worth of posts, so if it was your quote and you want credit for it, please jump in and say so! :-) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Mon Nov 25 23:24:36 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:24:36 -0000 Subject: On the nature of theories/MAGIC DISHWASHER Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47160 I'm not going to cast this into the bar fight that has been going on in TBAY: it takes too long and I'm going to be picking from too many posts at once. If you will, just picture the Grey Wolf sitting in his room going over all the recordings of the microphones installed in the tavern. On the nature of theories ------------------------- I'm going to start by pointing out something that should be obvious to everyone involved in this list, but lately it seems to be ignored: the definition of theory. I've picked my dictionary and looked it up, and this is what I came up with: Theory: 1) Abstract reasoning; speculation: Example: a decision based on experience rather than theory. 2) A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: Example: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime. 3) An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture. note especially 1 and 3: one is "speculation" the other, "conjecture". You see, a theory is not a theorem. They are different things indeed. While a theorem is a demonstrated fact, that has been proven beyond doubt, a theory is only one possible way of interpreting the facts. For example: I'm sure that everyone knows the Pithagoras theorem: the sum of the squares of the short sides of a rectangular triangle are equal to the square of the long side (fill in with the apropiate english technical names). This has been proven beyond doubt and there is no way to disprove it, except by scraping the paradigm and moving into curve space. On the other hand, a theory is something that, while acceptably coherent with the facts, can still be disporven because it is based on certain asumptions that are not tautological. For example, Einstein theory of general relativity could be proven if someone managed to accelerate a particle to a speed greater than light. Beyond that, there is another way to disprove a theory: what in my language is known as the better fit: simply find a theory that fits the facts better. Why am I saying all this? and why haven't I touched canon yet? The answer to both questions is: because the detractors of MD have decided to move outside canon, and even books, in their attacks. They've gone to the meta-theory ground (that is, theories on theories themselves) and -what is *much* worse- into personal ground. I'm tackling the first, and I'll make a small note on the second at the end. It will all be mingled with MD, though, since it's very difficult to separate them at this point. Let me go down the path of memory: Alla: > If future books will tell us that Dumbledore did absolutely > nothing to actively help Voldemort's resurrection does > it mean that MAGIC DISHWASHER would be disproved? This is the > cornerstone of your theory, right? Yes, that is what is known as counter-proof. It is the fastest way of disproving any theory. Abigail: > "I see." Says Abigail flatly. "So what you're saying is that MAGIC > DISHWASHER is subject only to a direct contradiction from within > canon. I find that very convenient. May I ask what makes MD so > special?" Nothing: all theories are true until proven guilty in science (and I use the scientific method approach to theories in both real life and HP4GUs). Two oposing theories can be true at the same time. If one proves more popular than the other, it is adopted as the oficial one, but that doesn't mean that it is right (and more importantly, it doesn't mean that the other is wrong). Many theories co-exist until better fit enhances one to prefered status, generally destroying the other one, but that's a property of all theories, not just MD. Another example, this time from HP4GU: a theory at random, let's say Trevor the Toad is Ever so Evil. If Trevor continues to be a toad that occasionally scapes from Neville for the rest of the books, it *will not* be disproven. After the seventh book, people will still be able to discuss in this list wether Trevor was an evil DE in disguise or whatever. It already has some semblance of canon defending it, and that's all a theory needs. Abigail: > And now you claim [MAGIC DISHWASHER] to > be canon-proof? And make no mistake about it, claiming that you > don't need verification in canon is just a hop and a skip away from > claiming that all canon contradiction is, in fact, a lie or a > misdirection. We never did claim that. You are putting words in our mouths. As has been explained, Safe House is canon-proof, but you're the one hopping and skipping into conclusions. Cindy: > Can any of the MD adherents tell us what it would take to *disprove* the theory?" And yet another time the same old question. OK, I'll give another example. If Dumbledore says in book 6 that they've just discovered a flaw in the potion and that they have been lucky Voldemort used that methoed and not any other, then MD would probably have to be scraped. Abigail: > Anyway, you know my feelings - the fact that a theory hasn't been disproven is not proof > of its truth." On the contrary, Abigail: just like in law, everyone is inocent until proven guilty, all theories are, /per se/ true until proven otherwise. You might not want to believe in it (it is your right as a free individual, and thus you don't have to use it for your own arguments), but a theory *itself* is true while not disproven. That is, as true as *any other theory you care to propose*. In science, there is no absolute truth: everything is relative; theory today, gone tomorrow; the truths of today are the scorned lies of tomorrow; I could go on and on, but let me put an example: Do you believe in Isaac's Newton Theory of Gravity? (basically, that all bodies attract each other in proportion to their mass). If the answer is yes, you're wrong: the theory has been replaced by a better fit. It is still used in schools to explain the idea, but it is nonetheless wrong: Einstein's theory of relativity explains that mass distorts time/space, and that bodies *seem* to attract each other because they fall into the funnels of distorted time/space created by them. However, until 100 years ago, Newton's theory of Gravity was accepted as truth... until someone found a better one. And that is the basis of science: that all theories are true until someone comes with a better one (or someone manages to find the fatal flaw, that is). Thus, I don't make any claim on MD's perfection. I have a scientific mind, and I think that MD is the best theory so far. Which is why I defend it. I am waiting for someone to come with a better one, that is *not* based on Dumbledore's plans. But I doubt there will be any such theory: IMO, Dumbledore is indeed making plans, and even if the nature of such plans is modified as new canon is uncovered, I don't really think that it will suddenly be said that there are no plans at all. Abigail: > "Right now, all these lovely thoeries exist in an uncertain state." > Abigail continues, oblivious, "inasmuch as they are all canonically > sound, they are all both true and false, and will remain in this > dual state until such time as canon directly addresses them - > either to proove or refute - or until the series ends and there is > no more new canon, in which case the remaining theories will > collapse upon themselves as if they never existed. And we're back to the discussion point: all theories in the Bay are inherently true while canon does not demonstrate against them, according to the scientific method that Newton himself put forward (and *that* was his most important contribution to science, not any of his theories, as useful as they are - that a theory is tentatively true until proven otherwise). A theory does not live in a state of uncertainty (neither does Schroedinger's cat). Many theories can, in fact, be true even if they contradict each other, since you need a direct counter example to disprove them, and in many cases of the theories of TBAY, that counter example will never happen. Abigail: > So you see, I can't accept that MAGIC > DISHWASHER will remain 'just a theory' even after book 7 ends - > it should either be proven or abandoned." Very wrong indeed! After book seven is when things will get most interesting: if they haven't been disproven by then, all theories will remain theories for ever. You see, there are three things that could happen to a theory at the end of book seven: 1) it is disproven, in which case it disappears 2) it is not confirmed by the books, in which case it *will remain a perfectly valid theory until the end of time* and 3) it is confirmed by the books (for example, in the last chapter when everything is explained: "and that is how the real mastermind behind everything that has happened was in reality Filch, the true strength behind Dumbledore") in which case, it's not a theory anymore, it's a theorem (and probably big fun for anyone who believed in it, since him or her gets free "I told you so"s to last a life time). Pippin: > "So, you say that to disprove Dishwasher, we must disprove the > arbitrary negative assertion that the books don't prove that > Dumbledore didn't help bring about Voldemort's return? No, I say that to disprove MD we just need a counter-example, like * with any other theory* Pippin: > "Sorry, but proving that Dumbledore *could* have done > something doesn't mean you've proved that he *did.* If you want > us to accept your assertions, you're going to have to assume the > burden of proof. And once you get past the obvious, that > Dumbledore had spies and so did Voldemort, there's very little > specific evidence and an awful lot of generalizing. I refer to the definitions I provided before: anything that fits the canon is a theory. Which means that if Dumbledore *could* have done something, it is enough to build a theory around it. And in Scientific analysis, the fact that it could is enough to think that it did. There are certain tautologies in the scientific paradigm that will stop certain arguments (for example, that there is no purpose to the universe: everything is random particle movements or cause and effect), and you are free to choose your own tautologies for theories in HP, but that wont give you ground to attack a theory built on other tautologies. For example, if you decide that, no metter what, Hermione will remain a spinster, you won't believe shipping theories, but you won't be able to attack ship thoeries on that base (I myself have a very close one: HARD SHIPWRECK, which states that both Harry and Ron will die, so why bother shipping them? But I cannot use that agaisnt ships, since it's *my* assumption). On MAGIC DISHWASHER itself -------------------------------------- Abigail: > I've yet to see a coherent form of that plan emerge from MAGIC > DISHWASHER, and without it MD reads more like rationalizing the > past. In which case you're all right, of course - there's no point > in predicting the future - you can just make the facts fit the theory > after they happen." You've got it all wrong. A theory does, indeed, base itself on the past to build itself. That is, from fragmented facts, you build something that fits all the facts and explains rationally the spots where there are no facts at all. Which is why MD does not predict the future, only explins the past: there are huge gaps in the books (gaps that MD detractors seem unwilling to fill, or maybe they are simply unable to see). However, We DO NOT make the facts fit the theory, but the other way round: the theory will accomodate the facts. In the next book, a whole new cartload of facts will come around. Maybe one of them will disprove the theory, I don't know, but most of them will simply modify it, making it more close to what really is going on Abigail: > If we argue that the theory puts Dumbledore > at the center of the books, you cry 'Metathinking!', even though > many of us find the idea of treating the books as if they took > place in the real world just as problematic. The fact is that metathinking is unnecesary in this case, since the theory is based in internal evidence, not in literary conventions (which are highly irregular anyway, and I could disprove almost all of them with just three authors: Shakespeare, Cervantes and Tolkien). And of course, MD is all about the people who really are in charge. You can give a try at explaining evcerything that is going on in the books placing Harry in the centre of it all, but I doubt you will get far. Harry is just a boy, and he's probably important, but he is not the centre of the war -or at least, he hasn't been it for now. You might as well place Dudley, in fact . Alla: > I don't think that this is the only alternative Dumbledore has. > Nobody expects him to sit around and just wait and see whether > Voldemort will resurrect or not. He can make any plans and > preparations in case resurrection will happen. He can and should take > this possibility into account, but not FORCE Voldemort to come back > if there is even a tiny possibility that he would not be able to do > it. Of course, I think that Dumbledore did not cross that line and it > does not make him less capable leader of WW. No, that is exactly what he cannot do. The very basis of MD is that there are several ways Voldemort could've come back, and only a few of them would leave him open to a counter attack. If he is given time instead of goading him into using the flawed potion, then he might as well re-discover the PS. And then, what? I'll tell you: he wins, everything goes down the drain, and then Dumbledore the pure white would have to see eveything he loves and cares for destroyed. Pippin: > one ought to admit that defeat is at least as much > a possibility under Dishwasher as it is without it. No it is not. Under MD, we asume that, if Dumbledore sits down and does nothing, Voldemort wins for sure, while if he works hard and baits him, Dumbledore's side has at least a possibility of winning. There is no other theory apart from MD anyway, so there is no "without it" to compare it to. People who are against MD have yet to come up with a theory that explains what is Dumbledore doing about Voldemort that does not include "sit and hope it all comes out for the best". Pippin: > Dumbledore is, after all, not "doing nothing" . He is training the > next generation to resist evil, he is working tirelessly to > encourage people to unite and to forgive their differences and he > is doing everything in his power to alert people to the danger, > including sending his spy out to discover what Voldemort plans > to do next. > > Pippin Yes, he is educating the next generation, true, but Voldemort is not a problem of the next generation: it is a problem that got out of hand of the previous one, and Dumbledore is too efficient to allow Voldemort's problem to carry on to the next generation. Especially since there might not be time for the next generation to grow anyway, or he might as well be the last powerful enough to stop Voldemort before he wins. Also, information about the enemy movements is useless if you don't do anything without it. Let me put it this way: Dumbledore discovers that Voldemort is going to come back because there are any number of ways for him to recorporate. Now what? Sits and waits? Allows him to choose the battlefield and the weapons and hope that when the time comes he will be powerful enough? Or some other option, that takes advantage of Voldemort's position. This is where MD kicks in, of course: he plans the best possible way to win him, baits the trap, and attracts him. And everything that has happened in the books so far falls into place. Abigail: > My problem is, what was his original plan [for the SS]? > MAGIC DISHWASHER talks a lot about Plan B, and even C and D > eventually, but what about Plan A? What was Dumbledore's > original game plan before Sirius went and ruined everything? I > said that at this point, no such plan emerges from MD, and as > result the theory looks more like shoving the past into a > convenient mold. Plan A was: get a Voldemort a follower with life-debt to Harry. Sirius did not went in and ruined anything; he was as good for the plan as Peter, and probably Dumbledore was originally planning to use Sirius anyway, since he might not have known Peter was there already. On this line, I think Abigail herself mentioned a while back that everything was happening too soon and that Dumbledore should have waited. I answered at the time that Dumbledore isn't getting any younger and that he was fighting against time as much as against Voldemort. I have realised, however, that there is yet another reason I forgot to mention at the time: Dumbledore did not plan Sirius scape in my version of MD (in any of the versions, I think, but will tell you when -if- I do the unifying post). Events were thrust upon him and, once they were in motion, he could only go along. Which is yet another reason for White!MD!Dumbledore: if he had sit on his back, Peter would've escaped anyway, and then we'd be back to the version of "Voldemort resurrects with his prefered method instead of Dumbledore's". Abigail: > I just don't get why you think this argument at all contradicts my > assertion that D!D would accept Karkarof's death as a necessary evil." Dumbledore has not planned for anyone's death: Cedric and Harry shouldn't have been portkeyd, Bertha got lost because of a memory charmed placed onto her by Crouch Sr. and we have no reason to believe Dumbledore knew about Bryce at all before he made it to the newspapers. You might want to blame Dumbledore for their deaths, but I certainly do not: Voldemort killed them, and would've killed them anyway if Dumbledore had done nothing. Or if he had another plan completely: Frank was bound to investigate, and Voldemort would probably have gone to his father's house even if he had returned on his own. If Peter hadn't found Bertha, Voldemort might have, and might have returned to England in a newly possesed body. And I certainly don't find any blame for Cedric's death. SO, in my views of Dumbledore, he wouldn't order Karkaroff's assasination. Abigail: > "This harkens right back to early PS - Harry's first meeting with > Hagrid to be exact. I don't have the exact canon in front of me, > but I'm sure you can all remember the line - Dumbledore was > offered the position of Minister of Magic and turned it down to stay > at Hogwarts, so Fudge got it instead. Now," Abigail continues, > her eyes glittering, "If Dumbledore has indeed been planning for > Voldemort's return since the end of VWI, why would he turn that > position down? He could have instituted the changes that he > now has to beg a bungler like Fudge to carry out. He could have > removed the Dementors from Azkaban, given all the prisoners > there a fair trial, not shoved Moody out of the Ministry like an old > handbag, sent envoys to the giants. He could have been actively > preparing the Wizarding World for Voldemort's return for the past > 15 years, but instead he's been teaching. Does that not suggest > that his mind was not constantly bent on Voldemort and ways to > defeat him?" Let's hear *your* version for why Dumbledore didn't accept the post - you'll probably discover that it fits MD. Mine is that it would mean too much paper-shuffling, and to put Dumbledore somewhere where he is unprotected (and make no mistake, Dumbledore need's Hogwarts protection as much as Harry does, IMO). It is in the school where he is strong and where he controls everything that goes on. In the MoM there are (were) still many DEs that could spy on him, and that is a risk Dumbledore is not willing to go through, I should think (never mind all those possible stray AKs). Besides, preparing Harry and the other students * is* a part of MD. Dumbledore set his plans into motion over 13 years ago, and appart from the occasional fine-tuning, most of those plans probably lie dormant until needed, or their active arrangements are in charge of members of the old gang. Dumbledore itself is the spymaster, which means sitting somewhere quiet making sense of what the reports tell him. Besides, he is also a teacher, so that place is where he can make most of his spare time: the school, preparing others just as he was prepared in the past. If it worked for him, he can only hope it will serve for others. Also, you overestimate what Dumbledore would've been able to accomplish while in the office: a politician in a democracy (and I assume that the MoM is not an absolutist, since he is elected) has to do what the people want him to do, or else he will be overruled. We are told that half the WW want the Dementors at Azkaban - that is a close call, and Fudge is probably popular because of that measure. Other things that have been required changing at the MoM Dumbledore could've influenced Fudge into doing as much as he could've done it himself. In my view of the WW, Fudge represents the majority of the wizards (i.e. he's the archetypical wizard: they just want tomorrow to be like today, they don't want to think Voldemort will come back, etc.). And, if you've read through the MD posts, you'll know that I believe that Dumbledore has a hand in the MoM anyway: through allies and friends like Arthur and other old gang members, he can pass laws that interest him, within reason. On the personal attacks on MD defenders --------------------------------------- I have been to several lists before joining HP4GUs and I have watched many flame wars brew and explode. And, unfortunately, some of the coments in recent posts have all the marks of things that could quickly get out of hand. This is the first and last time I'll answer this comments on a post. If they want to call me things, I ancourage them to do so by e-mail, which won't drag other people into it. What am I talking about? This sort of comments: Abigail: > You have left me, and other MD objectors, with no means of > arguing against the theory. If we claim that Dishwasher is out of > character for, say, Dumbledore, you pull out the fireman analogy > - which I came up with, by the way - and leave us looking like > sentimental fools. I have no control over what you look, Abigail. What you feel about yourself is not my doing. I hope you *do* recognise the fact that, if you argue against our theory, we are entitled to fight back. Or you thought that you just had to say something aginst us and we'd lie down and play dead? Abigail: > "It is not when you have yet to offer convincing proof of the > existence of Dumbledore's over-reaching master plan." Abigail > insists. "So far, MAGIC DISHWASHER reads like Dumbledore is > constantly rolling with the punches. There is a easy way out of this, Abigail: if you are unconvinced, you can simply state so and stop posting aginst the theory. The canon in favour of planning!Dumbledore is right in the open, and has always been there: we have been told that he started preparing for Voldemort's come back as soon as he disapeared. If this doesn't convince you that there are, in fact, such plans, then MD is not for you. But then it's a matter of your personal belief in the theory: just as I don't believe shipping theories, you don't have to believe MD. But I don't go posting "LOLLIPOPS is a horrible theory because no matter what I do, someone will always twist canon to find a reason to suport it". There are multiple theories in HP4GUs that are inherently contradictory with each other, and sometimes with themselves, to the eyes of the beholder. That is no reason, however, to personally attack the people who do the theory or their ideas. > Alla, > who would like very much for MD to be proven wrong. This is the worst form of bad manners in my own country, and a very easy way of getting shouted at. I'm going to give the benfit of the doubt once again, but saying that you hope for some other person's theory to be proven wrong is not nice, unless you are pretty sure that person would like it to be disproved too (as in a pessimistic theory). Abigail: > "You know, I don't think you DISHWASHER people are as morally > relativist as you like to think. And, boy, do you ever have a > persecution complex!" I do not consider myself a moral relativist. And I don't have a persecution complex: you can see from this small selection of attacks on the people behind the MD that the only theory that is regularly painted to be the reincarnation of the devil is MD. I haven't ever seen as many personal attacks in any of the other theories, no matter how realistic or unrealistic they are. The closest thing was the attacks between H/H and R/H ships, and those could be understood becuase they where oposite theories. As Pip said the other day: when did MD grow a forked tail? Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who knows this post is extremelly short to the unifying post, and wonders if he will have time in one christmas to write it. From sgarfio at yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 22:54:56 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:54:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Wizard Population and Other Schools In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021125225456.70938.qmail@web21404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47161 > > Wendy > > (Who thinks that Hogwarts is the only wizarding school in the UK - > > ... ... ... And who also believes there can be no more than 800 > > students at Hogwarts, based on the numbers provided at the > > Gryffindor/Slytherin quidditch match in PoA. How many fewer than 800 > > depends ... ... ... > > So, I'd guess that total Hogwarts student population is somewhere > > between 600 and 775, and probably closer to the larger number. > > > bboy_mn: > > Yeah, that's about my guess too. But even a guess that large has > trouble extrapolating into enough wizards to match the size of economy > that I see. Of course, you also have to take into consideration that Wizards have a longer life span than Muggles. This would mean that the adult population of the Wizarding World would be larger in proportion to the student population than it is in the Muggle world, because Wizards spend a larger proportion of their lives as adults than we do. They still finish their schooling around age 17, but they live to be well over 100 (Dumbledore being "old" at 150). Presumably, this also means that they are productive long after a Muggle would have retired. If an average life expectancy for a Wizard is, say, 125, then they could well be working until 100 or beyond. This gives them a career length of at least 80 years, versus our typical career length of about 40 years, allowing a larger economy than their numbers would imply. As for all the buildings, I think we in the US tend to take it for granted that the existence of buildings means somebody has to be actively building them, but in Europe there are plenty of *very* old buildings. If all of the buildings in Diagon Alley had sprung up in the past 20 years, then yes, that would imply a very large population. But if you spread their construction out over 1000 years or more, a small number of people can build a *lot* of buildings in 1000 years, particularly if they have magic working for them, both for construction and for maintenance. - Sherry who is ever so happy to be off moderated status, and couldn't wait until she had read all the posts in her inbox before replying to *something*, just for the thrill of seeing it post immediately. ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From sfeltus at insightbb.com Tue Nov 26 00:00:20 2002 From: sfeltus at insightbb.com (myilophan) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:00:20 -0000 Subject: Wizard Population and Other Schools Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47162 I think it unlikely that there are other wizard schools like Hogwarts in the UK because its students come from all over the British Isles (i.e. Seamus). What I really want to know, however, is where do the kids go before Hogwarts? It's true that they enter the school knowing little or no magic, but it's obvious that they can all read and write. Do most wizards home school or do they go to special wizard grade schools or what? M Yilophan From kaityf at jorsm.com Tue Nov 26 00:40:19 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:40:19 -0600 Subject: Voices from the past (Re: [HPforGrownups] Snape and the Potters) In-Reply-To: <20021125212704.11657.qmail@web21502.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021123212330.0127dbc8@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021125182106.01283608@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47163 Iris wrote: >I've been following the debate about the man's voice Harry hears while >he's learning how to conjure the Patronus Charm. According to Carol, it's >Severus's voice, not James's. That's an interesting possibility, and I >respect it. However, I think that the explanation is more simple, and >that Lupin's reaction to what Harry says is connected to the psychological >context of PoA rather than to the attack on Godric's Hollow. I would like to clarify something here. I originally wrote a message (#47054) about Snape and the Potters and the missing 24 hours, suggesting that Snape and Lucius may have been present when Lilly was killed. It was based on idle thoughts about Harry's dream after the sorting ceremony in SS/PS. (That it is actually a memory, not just a dream.) Melpomene responded that Snape might very well have been present and added that for a variety of reasons, the voice Harry hears couldn't be that of James. In response to that, I said my first inclination *IF THE VOICE WAS NOT JAMES'* would be to say it was Snape's and then I laid out a couple of possibilities, but they weren't very convincing to me, which is why I added the question about just whose voice it was. I don't know. I don't make any claims about that! My original theory doesn't even require James not to be there! As far as my theory goes, it could very well be James' voice Harry hears! I did ask for bugs in my theory. Maybe the voice is one of them. From alicit at aol.com Tue Nov 26 00:36:11 2002 From: alicit at aol.com (alicit at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:36:11 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Wizard Population and Other Schools Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47164 In a message dated 11/25/2002 4:31:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, kela_bit at netvision.net.il writes: > You have got to remember, that wizards live by far more then muggles. > The average muggle lives about 70-80 years. Wizards, as we know, live > far more. How much more? I can only guess, but my guess is they live > to be about 200. That would mean that their population would be three > times as much as the population a muggle school as big as Hogwarts > emits. e.g. My home town has three schools about the size of Hogwarts > each. My home town has about 600,000 people in it (I think, I'm not > sure... Naama2486, am I right?). That means each school here emits > about 200,000 people. Hogwarts would thus emit 3 times more - 600,000 > people. It's all Math. > Ah-hah! you have brought me to the point I was going to make all along, which actually goes against my own belief (that there is a large population). The fact that wizards live longer than muggles actually would lend itself to the small student population more than the large one. The shorter a person's life is likely to be, the younger they will be when they have children. i.e. in olden days, a woman would be in her teens when she married and had children, now the norm is mid-to-late twenties. It would make sense that wizards would not have children until they were in their 30-40's, which is about a quarter of their lifespan, which correlates to the muggle world. Case in point: the Weasleys. I know they would be a more likely candidate for the large population theory, but, if we can take most of the other hogwarts student's one-or-two child upbringings as the norm, they fit. Most of what we can see in the canon leads us to believe that Molly and Arthur are quite a bit older than the marauders/snape and company. Anyway, I do not believe it would be unresonable to think that they were into their thirties when they started their little brood. Then again, this is not the basis of my little theory, so I am probably off on the Weasley example, but that is just an example. Just a bit of a thought there... -Scheherazade [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Tue Nov 26 01:09:40 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:09:40 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard Population and Other Schools References: Message-ID: <3DE2C9D4.2A4D7543@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47165 myilophan wrote: > > I think it unlikely that there are other wizard schools like Hogwarts > in the UK because its students come from all over the British Isles > (i.e. Seamus). > What I really want to know, however, is where do the kids go before > Hogwarts? It's true that they enter the school knowing little or no > magic, but it's obvious that they can all read and write. Do most > wizards home school or do they go to special wizard grade schools or > what? > > M Yilophan Harry went to a muggle grade school and one supposes that 'purebred' wizards are either home schooled or go to muggle schools, depending on how their parents feel about muggles. Or there might be some sort of magic books that teach basic grade school stuff. Could be any or all methods. I kinda get the idea that a wizards powers don't really start to kick in till they are at least 10-11 years old. Or they would not dare let kids under 11 have wands! Jazmyn From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue Nov 26 01:21:33 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 01:21:33 -0000 Subject: TBAY- Dumbledore and Just War Theory (You had to Know It Was Coming!) In-Reply-To: <158.17f821c1.2b1405c9@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47166 "Well, well, well," says Eileen. "Things have come to a pretty pass. You know what this reminds me of?" "What?" asks Wendy. "It reminds me of discussions around the dinner table at my house, where everyone has a completely different view of whether war on you-know-where would be justified." Everyone shudders, knowing that current politics should not be discussed on the list. "But," says Eileen, "I will not say the I-word. Instead, I'll say that I've consequently been doing a lot of reading up on Just War Theory over the last while." Wendy shrugs her shoulder. "My inner Buddhist and Quaker must be coming through, but I really don't like what Dicentra said. I would say that turning into the thing you are fighting would be worse than dying for your principles. If Dumbledore does as Dicentra suggests," Wendy says, looking disconcerted and more than a bit sad, "he's no better than Voldemort, is he? Well, perhaps that's a bit extreme, but I would definitely say that he's not lived up to the moral code I expect from Dumbledore, and from the "good guys." "I'm on your side entirely," says Eileen. "I think this proposed killing of Karkaroff is wrong." "But," says Dicentra, "Dumbledore isn't always going to have a clean means to victory. He will often have to choose between the lesser of two evils. And if it so happens that executing Karkaroff will bring Snape back into Voldemort's good graces, for the purpose of getting vital intelligence and an operative on the inside, then that will have to be what he does." "No!" cries Wendy. "I overheard someone here say that different rules of morality apply during war.* And while I'll agree that this is a widely held opinion, I think it is not only wrong, but a dangerous thing to believe. It is a belief like this that opens the door to things like the dehumanization that Eileen and Judy have been discussing in their Choleric!Snape discussion. True morality doesn't waver. That's not to say that values and mores can't shift over time. But *true* morality - what really constitutes good and evil, if you will - doesn't waver. If it does, then the whole concept of morality becomes meaningless. And maybe that's the truth, after all - that all morality really is just a human, societal construct and is, ultimately, meaningless. But that's not what I'm wanting to argue here. My point isn't necessarily the relation between two differing sets of moral codes, but consistency within one. No matter what your moral code is, it seems that some things should stand." "Look," says Eileen. "I'll lay my cards on the table. I believe in moral absolutes, natural law, inalienable rights, the whole thing. And that may flavour my revulsion towards killing Karkaroff. Oh heck, why say "may flavour?" That explains my revulsion towards killing Karkaroff. I have to agree with Wendy, if you have a moral code, you stick with it. And Dumbledore does have a moral code, and he believes in sticking with it. The question is "What is his moral code?" "If killing people is wrong today," says Wendy. "It should be wrong tommorrow." Dicentra interrupts, "Having moral courage sometimes means doing one awful thing to prevent something worse from happening." "That's not my definition of moral courage. I think it takes more courage to choose a path of non-violence," says Wendy. Dicentra shakes her head. "Non-violence might not be an option in some cases. Non-violence works only if your enemy has a moral code but is blind to the fact that they're doing something evil. But Ghandi himself said that against the truly immoral and brutal, non-violence wouldn't work at all, because the immoral don't *care* if they're being immoral, and showing them their evil doesn't cause the least bit of remorse." Wendy shakes her head. "So if, under this rationalisation that "they deserved it," or "there is no other way to stop them and we must protect ourselves," you commit acts of terror, then you have become exactly the thing you are fighting against - a terrorist." "But," says Eileen, "Isn't there a difference between Just War and Terrorism?" Everyone stares at her, nervous that this debate is going to go all political. George gets ready to call the mods. "No, hear me out. This isn't about what is Just War and what isn't in our world. You see we all believe in Just Wars here." "We do?" asks George. He's echoed by a lot of the pub goers. "Of course we do," says Eileen cheerfully. "We wouldn't be fans of the book if we didn't believe the good side is justified in fighting Voldemort. Pacificism as a philosophy doesn't hold water in the Potterverse. Even if you don't believe 99.9999% of this world's wars are particularly justified, this one is. Does anyone want Harry, Dumbledore and the rest to settle down and wait for Voldemort to destroy the world? So, it's time for Just War theory. Just War Theory states that ther our four important principles to be regarded in deciding whether to go to war and in conducting a war. First, war can only be engaged in as a matter of self-defense or the defense of others. Secondly, the war must have a reasonable likelihood of success. i.e. Killing additional people for no earthly reason is not a good thing. Thirdly, war should only be entered when all non-violent means of resolution are exhausted. Fourth, non-combantants should be immune from deliberate attack. Fifth, the use of force should be proportionate to the evil that is being fought. Now, here's the evidence that Just War Theory fits JKR's moral beliefs as shown in canon. Principle #1 is obviously observed in the Potterverse. JKR has upheld the right to self-defense several times throughout the books. Meanwhile, the war against Voldemort is one of self-defense against Voldemort. Principle #2. Yes, this is no futile uprising that is going to cost more people their lives. The opposite is true. Principle #3 in the real world is one that causes the most doubt about whether war is morallly justifiable, since there are so many ways of non-violent resolution available to us. But JKR has set up a situation in which there isn't an apparent non-violent means of resolution. When Voldemort advances on Harry in the graveyard, JKR has Harry fight back. There may be some questions about how far JKR sanctions violent means of resolution (some listies note that Harry did try AK, and there has been some debate over whether that was a moral choice there or just the fact that he didn't know AK), but that's a Principle #5 question. Principle #4 - JKR's entire condemnation of Voldemort's method of going after non-combatants would suggest that she isn't planning to have Dumbledore say, "Screw the non-combatants. Let's massacre the Slytherin kids," which would be a jolly good idea by the way. Holding Draco Malfoy and the others as hostages, that is. But he's not going to do it, because Dumbledore doesn't believe in killing non-combatants. Which, btw, is why, imho, this whole Karkaroff thing doesn't wash. Karkaroff is a non-combatant. Dumbledore isn't going to be killing him any more than he'd consider killing Draco Malfoy in an attempt to intimidate Lucius Malfoy into something. Principle #5 - This is where we get to "Padfoot Returns." Sirius basically outlines Principle #5 when he said that Crouch became as cruel as many on the dark side. You can go too far with force, and when you do, what you are doing is just as bad as what you're trying to get rid of. Using the Cruciatus curse on your enemies is a good example of this. We haven't exactly seen where JKR draw the line, but we do know she draws a line. So you see, I think that Just War Theory fits the moral framework Rowling is building in that Dumbledore's war on Voldemort upholds each of its principles. I claim that this is the morality she endorses, and that it leaves no room for killing Karkaroff. I look forward to a long and interesting debate on this." Eileen From timregan at microsoft.com Tue Nov 26 01:32:14 2002 From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 01:32:14 -0000 Subject: Mrs Figg's function In-Reply-To: <188.11804d91.2b13c901@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47167 Hi All, --- In wrote: >> Karen states; >> I think that the protection Harry has while he is at the >> Dursley's may have something to do with Mrs. Figg > > I think that that is certainly her function. But I suspect > that it may be both simpler and a bit more complex than that. I've said this before (message 41226) but I do think that there is evidence that Harry was attacked in Privet Drive and that Mrs Figg thwarted his attackers. Consider this sequence of events: PS UKPB c 3 p 28: 1) "Harry spent as much time as possible out of the house, wandering around" thus leaving himself vulnerable. 2) "Mrs Figg wasn't as bad as usual. It turned out she'd broken her leg tripping over one of her cats and she didn't seem quite as fond of them as before. She let Harry watch television and gave him a bit of chocolate cake". The cat story could be a ruse to explain the broken leg and we know chocolate is a remedy used in the Wizarding World. 3) Less than a page later (one day) Harry's invite to Hogwarts appears in the post. Cheers, Dumbledad. From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Nov 26 01:39:35 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 01:39:35 -0000 Subject: Voices from the past (Re: [HPforGrownups] Snape and the Potters) In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021125182106.01283608@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47168 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > Iris wrote: > > >I've been following the debate about the man's voice Harry hears while > >he's learning how to conjure the Patronus Charm. According to Carol, it's > >Severus's voice, not James's. That's an interesting possibility, and I > >respect it. However, I think that the explanation is more simple, and > >that Lupin's reaction to what Harry says is connected to the psychological > >context of PoA rather than to the attack on Godric's Hollow. > > I would like to clarify something here. I originally wrote a message > (#47054) about Snape and the Potters and the missing 24 hours, suggesting > that Snape and Lucius may have been present when Lilly was killed. It was > based on idle thoughts about Harry's dream after the sorting ceremony in > SS/PS. (That it is actually a memory, not just a dream.) Melpomene > responded that Snape might very well have been present and added that for a > variety of reasons, the voice Harry hears couldn't be that of James. In > response to that, I said my first inclination *IF THE VOICE WAS NOT JAMES'* > would be to say it was Snape's and then I laid out a couple of > possibilities, but they weren't very convincing to me, which is why I added > the question about just whose voice it was. I don't know. I don't make > any claims about that! My original theory doesn't even require James not > to be there! As far as my theory goes, it could very well be James' voice > Harry hears! > > I did ask for bugs in my theory. Maybe the voice is one of them. Okay. I don't know if I'm spotting Skeeters or not, but after reading #47054 and this, I have some questions: 1) If Lucius and Snape were with the Big V, why did they not assist him when his green light dark magic curse backfired and took his body? Surely they didn't think he was entirely annihilated if they were standing there to see him reduced to a bodiless specter. 2) So far, if memory serves, Harry's dreams have been prophetic, and his memories have mostly been dredged up while he's awake. Except for the green light dream in PS/SS. The Turban telling him Slytherin was, IMO, a warning that Vapormort was in said Turban. 3) How did Lucius and Severus and Voldemort arrive if they did not leave the same way after Vapormort got poofted? Wouldn't Sirius, who turned up on the motorbike, have seen them departing since he only found the rubble, the Potters, and little Harry as or just before Hagrid showed up? 4) We know from priori incantatem that Lily and James were together and were killed one right after the other [even if there's some question as to the order. They died within minutes or seconds of each other]. If Snape was still undercover as a DE, he could not have been the person saying, "Run, Lily, I'll try to hold him off!" could he, without blowing his cover to Lucius Malfoy. If he were alone, though, I could see it, because he owed James Potter his life, and had to act in accord with that. But if he'd acted to save Lily, why did Voldemort not punish him for thwarting "his master", continuing on to and through Lily for Harry? That's all the questions I have for the moment. Thanks for making me think! --Indigo 4) From Telly at BonBon.net Mon Nov 25 23:18:41 2002 From: Telly at BonBon.net (Telly) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:18:41 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Significance of Peter Pettigrew's Name (WAS: Big pointer to Snape as Vampire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47169 -----Original Message----- From: Shauna [mailto:wind3213 at hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 12:35 PM To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Significance of Peter Pettigrew's Name (WAS: Big pointer to Snape as Vampire I always looked back on the "pet" in Pettigrew as a sly sort of foreshadowing about his being Scabbers, the Weasleys' pet. But that doesn't really have anything to do with Animagus forms. Does anyone know if Harry or any of the characters in the book might become animagus? --Telly From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 02:13:05 2002 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:13:05 -0000 Subject: On the nature of theories/MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47170 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: > > > Alla, > > who would like very much for MD to be proven wrong. > > This is the worst form of bad manners in my own country, and a very > easy way of getting shouted at. I'm going to give the benfit of the > doubt once again, but saying that you hope for some other person's > theory to be proven wrong is not nice, unless you are pretty sure that > person would like it to be disproved too (as in a pessimistic theory). OK, I am puzzled. I apologize if I hurt your feelings, because getting personal was definitely not my intention. Nevertheless I did intended to state my objection against MD version of events. I think I am allowed to do it. Maybe it was poorly phrased (English is not my first language either, so please take it into consideration)and for that I am sorry. But I am honestly curious why hoping that theory would be proven wrong means bad manners. When quoting me,you skipped the first part of the phrase (Respects MD as very creative theory), so I think I was respectful to you and other MD supporters. How can I not be if MD pulled me out of the lurker mode to try and state my objections. If you still would like to shout at me, please feel free to e-mail me off-list. Alla From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Tue Nov 26 02:59:55 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:59:55 +0000 Subject: CoS Theories Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021126024719.0098f4a0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 47171 I was about to post this to the Movie list, but decided that here would be a better place (please bear with me)... A thought occurred to me earlier today when I was talking to a (non HP-book reader) friend who'd just seen TSMTSNBN. I needed to explain to him that Christian Coulson's Tom Riddle was meant to be 16 (the one reference to it in dialogue passed him by) and I started thinking why an actor who is visibly obviously not 16 (though admittedly less than Coulson's real 23 years) was chosen to play the part. After all, there is no end of real 16-18 year-olds who could have played the part just as well (and more believably), yet for *some* reason, the casting people went for an adult. The only explanation I can think of is the same reason why 30-something Shirley Henderson was chosen to play Moaning Myrtle: Tom Riddle's 16-year-old self will be returning in a later book (and movie). I therefore propose that observation in support of a theory I've had for some time (and seen mentioned in various places by others as well), which is that Voldemort's ultimate downfall will not be his death, but the undoing of all the changes he underwent since leaving Hogwarts, and a return to his previous form as an adolescent. The ultimate "second chance", a recurring theme in the books! Any thoughts? -- Gulplum AKA Richard, 272 posts left to read and counting... From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Nov 26 03:29:54 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 22:29:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CoS Theories In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021126024719.0098f4a0@plum.cream.org> References: <4.2.0.58.20021126024719.0098f4a0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <200211252229540893.073953FA@mail.indigosky.net> No: HPFGUIDX 47172 On 11/26/2002 at 2:59 AM GulPlum wrote: >I was about to post this to the Movie list, but decided that here would >be >a better place (please bear with me)... > >A thought occurred to me earlier today when I was talking to a (non >HP-book >reader) friend who'd just seen TSMTSNBN. > >I needed to explain to him that Christian Coulson's Tom Riddle was meant >to >be 16 (the one reference to it in dialogue passed him by) and I started >thinking why an actor who is visibly obviously not 16 (though admittedly >less than Coulson's real 23 years) was chosen to play the part. After all, >there is no end of real 16-18 year-olds who could have played the part >just >as well (and more believably), yet for *some* reason, the casting people >went for an adult. > >The only explanation I can think of is the same reason why 30-something >Shirley Henderson was chosen to play Moaning Myrtle: Tom Riddle's >16-year-old self will be returning in a later book (and movie). I don't think so. It's normal Hollywood convention for casting people to pick older actors to play younger parts. The 90210 kids were portrayed by adults. But the reason I think they chose Coulson, who doesn't look 16, does have a canonical, book-based reason behind it. Vapormort was, with every use of the diary, growing stronger in his connection with the memory of 16 year old Tom Riddle. And every time Ginny's life force diminished, making Riddle stronger, he took on more aspects of the Voldemort he will eventually grow into. Possibly, you have a point, since we already know in the books that Voldemort gets his own body back. I don't think it was made clear whether this new body was a ringer for Riddle or whether it looked different based on the blood of the ally/blood of the enemy spell. > >I therefore propose that observation in support of a theory I've had for >some time (and seen mentioned in various places by others as well), which >is that Voldemort's ultimate downfall will not be his death, but the >undoing of all the changes he underwent since leaving Hogwarts, and a >return to his previous form as an adolescent. The ultimate "second >chance", >a recurring theme in the books! Interesting thought, but I am not so sure I think that would be considered wise. Riddlemort's nature would have to change at the intrinsic basic level to not have him rise all over again, wouldn't it? And then there's the morality of the "would you kill Hitler" question coming back into play. --Indigo From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 03:53:27 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 03:53:27 -0000 Subject: TBAY: For the love of a dishwasher...and a sword In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47173 First, I love my job. People saw me writing today and assumed it was my thesis and let me be. I thought it best not to right them. After all, this is *way* more important than that silly thing. :) And second, I know Grey posted his response in a non-TBAY muggle form, so imagine that bit still with this happening earlier or maybe during. Or something like that. Really, this is an attempt to calm the waters a bit, which Grey also did by taking to discussion out of TBAY. But as it is, I had too much fun writing this to not present it. Oh and Grey, in front of God and the group, I want to say, about your last post, I have never been prouder to call you my friend. So dry that eye and we are off to TBAY land. "I know you're going to love it. Just love it." (Willy Wonka) [Oh and if not, well - I'm sorry. I tried.] ------ Drying her eyes from her jitters with yelling, Melody watched Grey and Pip advance towards Pippin, Alla, and Abigail. Personally Melody thought they should fear the cracking sound of Grey popping his knuckles, but that did not seem to phase them. Cindy was still brooding around in the corner and the tavern was at a low uproar. Seems everyone was talking and hardly anyone was making any attempt at listening or reconciling. At current state, these discussions seem pointless. Melody leaned back in her chair and muttered to herself, "Trying to attach MAGICAL DISHWASHER is like trying to satisfy an itch by blowing on it. We'll just annoy you further, and you'll just be out of breath with frustration." Looking around the full room, Melody felt helpless. The din was getting quite loud. Her only option was to attempt a mass crowd control. Her eyes fell on the bar. "Well, why not?" she said drawing her courage. She leapt onto the bar, which luckily is one of those kind without the glasses hanging over it, and stood tall facing the room. Poor George just buried his face in his hands and mumbled, "I could of been given a nice cozy tea room, but *no*." "People, listen to me! -- Please!" Melody cried raising her arms to give that universal appeasement wave down. One of the regulars looked up at the girl and elbowed her neighbor. "Hey, 10 galleons if she says she's going to take the ring to Mordor." Well the crowd was having none of it. "No!" "Leave us be!" "Go back to your precious Safe House." "You are too slippery to be fair." The splattered food was being scooped up and thrown at the girl to punctuate their passion on the issue. "Hey, I did not call us here," Melody tried to defend dodging a huge helping of corned beef. >From a corner, a lone fresh apple flew through the air from the area where a certain captain was standing off behind the girl. It was aimed dead on for her little head. Pip and Grey started to attempt to break the apple's quest, but they were too far away to get there in time. The apple twirled closer and closer as the room stood silent. A voice near by called out, "Melody! Here -- Watch out!" and tossed a shiny sword into the clueless hand of Melody. "Huh?" Melody asked twirling around to see what the voice meant, and as she did, the sword sliced the apple into two halves deflecting the pieces to the floor. Only the heavy breath of the room filled the next moments. Melody just looked, sword still outstretched to her side, between the apple halves and Pip and Grey. They looked quite relieved. Melody looked down at the sword and saw 'Frankie' engraved above the hilt. "Frankie," Melody gasped. Looking at the sword and down to her friend leaning on the bar, Melody paused a second. "Why do you have a sword?" "Comes in handy and is dead sexy," Frankie winked. "Quite right," Melody observed as she drew the sword in an ever chivalrous position and saluted it down. "I have *got* to get me one of these." "Oh, I have dozens. Keep it." Frankie waved. "Seems you need it." Melody looked back out to the room feeling quite empowered. Seems she had the attention of everyone now. Not wanting to waste the moment, Melody turned back to Cindy and drew the sword out in front of her. "You -" she growled as the crowd drew back, "are temperamental, arrogant, rash, and entirely too bold. -- I like that. Reminds me of my mother." Melody then saluted the Captain with flair. Cindy relaxed and even managed to smile. Frankie, though, looked up at the girl shocked and whispered, "You're mother is like all that?" Melody turned her head and whispered back, "No, but she doesn't read these now does she?" "Fair enough," Frankie nodded. Grey smiled at Pip. "I think Melody found her courage," he commented. "I think she might never let that sword go," Pip replied back. "So, on to the business at hand," Melody began scooping up a napkin and wiping the sword free of apple blood. "Abigail!" she cried pointing the sword again. "Why did I ever mention dishwashers?" Abigail muttered shaking her head. "Please put that thing away. You are going to put someone's eye out." Melody bit her bottom lip but knew the woman was right. "Alright," she obeyed and rested the sword back on her shoulder. "You claim Dishwasher!Dumbledore should of taken the MoM job for better distribution of his defense. He is more effective if he had more power." "Yes," Abigail said a bit uneasy which is probably due to the fact Grey was still cleaning his claws from his last round with dissenters. "Tsk, tsk tsk. Abigail. That one is too easy. I mean it maybe because he does not like wearing trousers, or it maybe because he has a *really* cool office at Hogwarts." Melody smiled. "That is *no* reason to pass up the opportunity..." Abigail said in a bit of outrage. "I'm not finished," Melody sneered flexing her fingers over the sword. "T'was a joke, Abigail. No, the 'real' reasons Dumbledore could of had is obvious. Well at least to me." Melody let down the sword like a cane and crossed her ankles. "MoM is too in the spotlight. Can't have a *secret* spy war if your actions are being watched by red tape and cameras. Every move MoM!Dumbledore made would be broadcasted and even considered public's right to know. Hogwarts is protected. A secret haven with access to forest and lakes. A much better defense than the busy political job of MoM. I mean what else does Dumbledore do as headmaster besides give eccentric speeches and provide sleeping bags. He has *a lot* of free time that would not otherwise be available to him." "Well, he *could* of been MoM for 10 years then came to Hogwarts for Harry's education," Abigail said with arms crossed. "Oh, that isn't the least bit suspicious and conspicuous," Melody said sarcastically. "Fudge takes over Dumbledore's job, only one for the job it seems, and botches all that Dumbledore just did. What would be the point? Then Dumbledore wasted 10 years there when in fact he had just the same amount of influence as is implied with the daily owl posts." "You're just speculating," Abigail shrugged. "SO ARE YOU!" Melody cried raising her sword again. "True, the only thing we *know* on the issue are only told by Hagrid. Dumbledore does not want to leave Hogwarts, but Fudge still pelts him with owls everyday. I think it is in Ch 5 in the first book. [ok, I know, but in the bar I didn't] Really all you *and* I are doing is speculation. Anything we say is not proof of anything." Pippin, wanting to get Melody's sword far away from Abigail popped in and said, "Hey, you have not address my question. I asked, 'So, you say that to disprove Dishwasher, we must disprove the arbitrary negative assertion that the books don't prove that Dumbledore didn't help bring about Voldemort's return?' **snip a bit** Dumbledore is at liberty to reject the quasi-Utilitarian ethic which Grey Wolf ascribes to him, no matter how popular it is among politicians, bureaucrats and their employees." Melody paused her sword mid air and turned her head towards Pippin. "What the hell are you talking about? Quit using big words." Pippin sniffed. "I use 'big words' because they capture the essence of my inquiry exactly." Melody jumped down from the bar resting her sword on her shoulder. "Show off," she muttered as she passed Pippin. "Well at least I can," Pippin quipped back. Grey jumped between the girls. "Mel, I'll take her. You just -- calm down a bit or I'm taking that sword away from you." He grabbed Mel's shoulders and turned her around. "Come on Pippin, and you too Abigail. We need to sit down. Calmly," Grey growled back at Melody, "and get this all sorted out." Grey took them over to a side table. "Ok," Melody said quietly knowing she was a bit over zealous. She had really enjoyed that though. Looking at the fire, Melody saw Eloise sitting there quietly. Bouncing over, Melody threw her arms around Eloise's shoulders causing her to jump out of her chair. "Thank you *so* much on your moral explanation (1) in your post." "Um, you're welcome," Eloise said as she turned her head to see who *in the world* was interrupting her peace. "It managed to explain in one paragraph what I had been trying to do for the past two hours. You are wonderful," Melody praised relaxing her grip and standing back straight. Looking around a bit more, Melody saw Roo as well. She bounced over to him, but he backed up and cowered against a corner (2). "My TBAY had nothing to do with MD, or at least it better not have." Melody stopped and rocked on her heels frowning at the boy. "No, it doesn't. I was just going to say I agree. The love is pure magic. Nothing else was needed. That is why it is ancient. Ancient often means simple." Roo grabbed his heart and smiled. "Thank you." "You're a bit paranoid, Roo," Melody observed with her eyes twinkling. Melody sighed and scanned the room again. She knew there were arguments that should be presented and parts of MD that needed to be explained further, but for now, she was enjoying the moment. Melody who shamelessly stole the 'apple bit' from "The Man in the Iron Mask", but always loved the tension of the moment. Plus I wanted a sword. :) (1) link to Eloise's reason for the hug http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/47121 (2) link to Roo's reason for cowering at me http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/47122 From kaityf at jorsm.com Tue Nov 26 05:45:26 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:45:26 -0600 Subject: Voices from the past (Re: [HPforGrownups] Snape and the Potters) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021125182106.01283608@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021125220925.030927a8@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47175 Indigo wrote: >I don't know if I'm spotting Skeeters or not, but after reading >#47054 and this, I have some questions: > >1) If Lucius and Snape were with the Big V, why did they not assist >him when his green light dark magic curse backfired and took his >body? Surely they didn't think he was entirely annihilated if they >were standing there to see him reduced to a bodiless specter. Good question. How much do we know about what happened to Voldemort when the curse backfired? LV says at the end of PS/SS: "see what I have become? ... Mere shadow and vapor...I have form only when I can share another's body." At the moment of impact, so to speak, how much would Vapormort know about how to get about in his new form? Would he instinctively have known to somehow enter someone's "heart and mind"? Or would he have to take off and "regroup"? No one had ever survived this curse before. I would guess then that no one had had it backfire and been turned to vapor and shadow. Maybe Vapormort thought he needed to get out of there in case something even worse happened -- like he completely disappeared from the face of the earth. Anyway, I do think it is within the realm of possibilities for Snape and Lucius not to know that Vapormort was, in fact, Vapormort and not Voldemort. Of course, I would also wonder why Voldemort doesn't bring this up to Lucius. Then again, LV at the graveyard scene in GoF does say to Lucius, "You never tried to find me, Lucius." Perhaps he feels that Lucius above all the others should have known that LV had not been completely destroyed. And maybe LV took off, but before doing so, told Lucius and Snape (somehow) to come to him later. Lucius does reply to LV that had there been any sign of his whereabouts, he would have been at his side immediately. It seems to me to indicate that maybe Lucius knew that LV was still around in vapor/shadow form, but just didn't know where. >2) So far, if memory serves, Harry's dreams have been prophetic, and >his memories have mostly been dredged up while he's awake. Except >for the green light dream in PS/SS. The Turban telling him >Slytherin was, IMO, a warning that Vapormort was in said Turban. I agree that this dream could be part prophetic, but I still have to wonder why the mention of Malfoy transforming into Snape, who laughs a high-pitched laugh. I never thought twice about it when I read it the first or even the second time, but now I just can't believe that JKR didn't have something up her sleeve with that one. >3) How did Lucius and Severus and Voldemort arrive if they did not >leave the same way after Vapormort got poofted? Wouldn't Sirius, who >turned up on the motorbike, have seen them departing since he only >found the rubble, the Potters, and little Harry as or just before >Hagrid showed up? Well, Hagrid was there before Serius. This still fits into my theory -- I think. Lucius and Snape would already be gone by the time Serius shows how and Hagrid would have been in on the "cover up" with Snape so it wouldn't be a surprise to Hagrid. By this time everything has been worked out. Hagrid has talked to DD, who tells him he is going to arrange things so Harry will be safe at the Dursleys and will meet him there later. Snape might have found a way to inform DD about the killings and vaporization of Voldemort and then stayed to look after Harry until arrangements were made. When all is in order, Hagrid goes off to get Harry and take him to the Dursley's. At some point after DD leaves, Hagrid could have run into McGonagall. This is where Hagrid tells her that Dumbledore will be at the Dursley's. He doesn't tell her anymore than that. So she goes off there and meanwhile Snape is watching Harry and Hagrid is waiting for word from DD to know when it's time to pick up Harry. Snape would also have been functioning to charm the place to keep the Muggles away until the time is right. When it is, he takes off, removing the charm before he goes. Hagrid arrives before the Muggles start swarming around the place and right when Serius arrives. This is moving beyond where I was going originally, but it has made me think more about how the theory would work with the rest of the details we know about that night. >4) We know from priori incantatem that Lily and James were together >and were killed one right after the other [even if there's some >question as to the order. They died within minutes or seconds of each >other]. I don't remember this. I know the James was supposed to have died first, but I don't remember -- and can't find at the moment -- any mention of their dying within minutes or seconds of each other. >If Snape was still undercover as a DE, he could not have >been the person saying, "Run, Lily, I'll try to hold him off!" could >he, without blowing his cover to Lucius Malfoy. I agree. It's why I originally didn't say that Snape was the one who said this. As far as my theory goes, the voice Harry hears IS that of his father. I propose that Snape arrived without much of a plan in an attempt to save the Potters. He may have found out at the last minute, gone with Lucius and Voldemort, hoping that he would be able to thwart the attack somehow. If he doesn't do anything overt, he won't give himself away. Also, if Snape knew that Voldemort was intent on killing the Potters, he may have known there wasn't much he could do, but would try anyway. >If he were alone, >though, I could see it, because he owed James Potter his life, and >had to act in accord with that. But if he'd acted to save Lily, why >did Voldemort not punish him for thwarting "his master", continuing >on to and through Lily for Harry? But I think he would have actually gone to save the whole family, not just Lilly. I'm not sure of all the exact details, but I am convinced that Snape was present. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Lucius was there too. He really hates Muggles and mudbloods and clearly didn't care for the Potters. I'm sure he would have loved a fun evening out killing the Potters. Also, if he was Voldemort's right-hand man, as some people here have suggested, it would make sense for Lucius to be there for this particular killing. There is something about the Potters. >That's all the questions I have for the moment. Thanks for making me >think! You're welcome! Thanks for the skeeters! I had to think through some details I hadn't considered before! I think the theory still works. From kaityf at jorsm.com Tue Nov 26 06:14:03 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:14:03 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and the Potters In-Reply-To: <18a.11c66106.2b13efb7@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021125234615.0327c148@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47176 >kaityf at jorsm.com writes: > > I am too now. My first inclination is to say that it's Snape who's > yelling > > out the warning, although could give him away to Voldemort, although the > > voice tells Lilly to take Harry and run and he'd hold "him" (meaning > > Voldemort) off. I suppose it would be possible that Snape arrived > first to > > warn Lilly. She may have had just enough time to run and grab Harry, but > > that's it. Maybe Snape stalled LV for a short while and thought Lilly had > > had a chance to get away. If the voice doesn't belong to James, which > > seems likely, and it doesn't belong to Snape either, who could it belong > > to? If as I guessed, Lucius was there as well, it certainly wouldn't be > > Lucius warning Lilly. I hope we get more hints about that night in book 5. The Queen of Serpents wrote: >1) Where the heck *is* James? We know from the shades in the graveyard >(order controversy aside for the moment) that James was AK'd directly before >or after Lily, so he must have been caught by Voldemort or someone using V's >wand at least sometime that night. Do we know how soon after one died the other died? I would think that Lilly died after James. Didn't LV try to kill Harry right after he killed Lilly? Didn't LV say Lilly didn't have to die? If James was there, wouldn't he try to stop LV from killing Lilly? If he was killed first, whose voice do we hear? It would all have to be pretty fast. Is this why we think that James was killed minutes or seconds before Lilly? I hadn't thought about the possibility that someone else might have used LV's wand to kill anyone! That certainly opens up some interesting ideas! Especially when we've wondered what became of that wand and how LV got it back. The Queen of Serpents: >2) Why would Snape do this? And why would Voldemort not just zap him? Even >with LOLLIPOPS and James's life debt in play, (if you like) this is >tantamount to suicide. I agree. I was really musing out loud, so to speak, as to the possibility of the voice belonging to Snape, but my conclusion was that the voice is a mystery if it doesn't belong to either James' or Snape. IF it's true that it doesn't belong to James, and if Snape was there, I was just supposing it was *possible* that the voice belonged to Snape. It would be a *first* inclination to say that, but even I could recognize the problems with that one. I really think that Snape went to the Potters to try to save them. I'd actually be more willing to believe that it was James calling out to Lilly. However, *if* it was true that JKR was adamant about James not being in the death scene in TMTSNBN, then it would seem the voice didn't belong to him either. I saw that as a problem. Whose voice would it be? The Queen of Serpents: >3) I wouldn't doubt that Lupin is still upset over the Potters' deaths and >probably shocked that Harry can remember this, even with a dementor's help. That is certainly possibly. I don't think I ever read it that way. Lupin's reaction always bothered me. It always struck me as an odd reaction. It never struck me as shock. It just works better for me to think that Lupin somehow knew that it was not possible for Harry to have heard his father's voice. I can't think of anything else to support that feeling. I guess I have to go back and reread PoA. I have to finish rereading Gof first. From twisterx at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 26 02:38:43 2002 From: twisterx at bellsouth.net (twister10_2000) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:38:43 -0000 Subject: Voices from the past (Re: [HPforGrownups] Snape and the Potters) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47177 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: > > 4) We know from priori incantatem that Lily and James were together > and were killed one right after the other [even if there's some > question as to the order. They died within minutes or seconds of each > other]. I'd be willing to argue against that last statement: all that Priori Incantem tells us is that James died before Lily (Since that whole mess was admitted as a mistake and has been altered in later editions) After all, Cedric, Frank and Bertha Jonkins were killed 13 years after the deaths of Lily and James and there was no mentioned difference in the times and pauses between their shadow's appearances and those of Lily and James'. Personally, I believe that they died within seconds to minutes of each other and that it was James' voice that Harry hears in the Dementor memory...but all that Priori Incantem tells us is that Voldemort casted no other spells between the time he killed James and that he killed Lily. I find it entirely plausible for Snape to have been there the night that Lily and James died...if not a bit of a stretch in cannon. However, it's a nice explanation for Harry's dream. "Perhaps Harry had eaten a bit too much, because he had a very strange dream. He was wearing Professor Quirrell's turban, which kept talking to him, telling him that he must transfer to Slytherin at once, because it was his destiny. Harry told the turban that he didn't want to be in Slytherin; it got heavier and heavier; he tried to pull it off but it tightened painfully-- and there was Malfoy laughing at him as he struggled with it-- then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher, Snape, whose laugh became high and cold-- there was a burst of green light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking." Even still, I see it as a bit of stretch...The dream can be interpreted anyway one chooses it to (as can the rest of cannon)...The most obvious foreshadowing was that of Quirrell's turban, since we know who that is...but what I find interesting is that he says it's Harry's destiny and that the more Harry rejects the idea, the heavier and more painful his load becomes. Heck, we could interpret that as that Harry is the heir of Slytherin or somesuch great thing, or just compare it to Harry's journey so forth (we know things will get darker as the series progresses)...or that he will be a tragic hero- cue the green light at the end of the dream. Reading it again, I see Draco being there for the sheer prospect of being...well, a Malfoy. Laughing while Potter struggles. Snape, well, we still don't quite know his part just yet, other then that he hates James, he was a death eater double agent who has apparently turned 'good' guy...for all we know he could be laughing in the dream because he's seeing the irony in Harry suspecting him in the future, yet it being Quirrell's turban so tightly bound to his head....and oh dear, I'm rambling. The thing is that sometimes a dream is just a dream, not a memory or prophecy or foreshadowing....perhaps Harry just ate some funny treacle pudding at dinner the night before, eh? ;-D Jess, Ever Incurably Bumbling and Rambling From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Nov 26 07:15:56 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 07:15:56 -0000 Subject: Voices from the past (Re: [HPforGrownups] Snape and the Potters) In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021125220925.030927a8@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47178 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > Indigo wrote: > >4) We know from priori incantatem that Lily and James were together > >and were killed one right after the other [even if there's some > >question as to the order. They died within minutes or seconds of each > >other]. > > I don't remember this. I know the James was supposed to have died first, > but I don't remember -- and can't find at the moment -- any mention of > their dying within minutes or seconds of each other. You've either completely answered my other questions or I'm still skulling them over, but this one had answers jumping into my head straightaway! PoA: Dumbledore told Lily and James to go into hiding. The Fidelius Charm was cast. Sirius was chosen as secret keeper and at the last minute, Sirius told them to switch to Peter because Sirius thought himself too obvious. The remark made about the Charm was that Voldemort couldn't find them even if he had his nose pressed right up against their sitting room window. Small but important distinction of phrasing: Their. Not Hers. Sirius' exact words: "you sold Lily and James to Voldemort." PoA p 374. Another small but important distinction of phrasing. Their names were together, without 'then' in the middle as 'you sold Lily and then you sold James to Voldemort.' This could be of course simply chalked up to the fact that Black was murderously angry, starved, and deranged. But the distinct impression I get from all of this is that Lily and James were together in the house. These two tidbits of information impliy, to me, strongly, that James and Lily were together. In the house in Godric's Hollow. Further [and I know how much I'm painting a bullseye on my head by saying this] Logic dictates that it had to have been seconds or minutes between James' death and Lily's because if it had been longer than that, Lily could've gathered Harry up and apparated out, or grabbed a broomstick and flown to safety because James would've bought sufficient time for an escape with his death. This is taking into consideration that Hogwarts level disapparation spells hadn't been put on the house -- but why would they need them, if they had Fidelius? Without the Secret Keeper speaking, Voldemort could have apparated right on top of their wedding bed and never realized he'd found them. > >If Snape was still undercover as a DE, he could not have > >been the person saying, "Run, Lily, I'll try to hold him off!" could > >he, without blowing his cover to Lucius Malfoy. > > I agree. It's why I originally didn't say that Snape was the one > who said this. As far as my theory goes, the voice Harry hears IS >that of his father. I propose that Snape arrived without much of a > plan in an attempt to save the Potters. He may have found out at > the last minute, gone with Lucius and Voldemort, hoping that he > would be able to thwart the attack somehow. If he doesn't do > anything overt, he won't give himself away. Also, if Snape knew > that Voldemort was intent on killing the Potters, he may have > known there wasn't much he could do, but would try anyway. > > >If he were alone, > >though, I could see it, because he owed James Potter his life, and > >had to act in accord with that. But if he'd acted to save Lily, why > >did Voldemort not punish him for thwarting "his master", continuing > >on to and through Lily for Harry? > > But I think he would have actually gone to save the whole family, not just > Lilly. I'm not sure of all the exact details, but I am convinced that > Snape was present. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Lucius was there > too. He really hates Muggles and mudbloods and clearly didn't care for the > Potters. I'm sure he would have loved a fun evening out killing the > Potters. Also, if he was Voldemort's right-hand man, as some people here > have suggested, it would make sense for Lucius to be there for this > particular killing. There is something about the Potters. Sense, to a degree. Voldemort is a megalomaniac; and being one such he might've gone entirely alone because he figured no one could stand up to him once he was ready to take them down. But that's not really a good enough reason for why Lucius might have been there when Voldemort attacked. --Indigo From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 08:38:18 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:38:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [FILK] Because Message-ID: <20021126083818.11541.qmail@web40308.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47179 BECAUSE to the tune of BECAUSE from the Abbey Road album by the Beatles (THE SCENE: Molly, standing in a line outside of Flourish and Blotts, keeps primping her hair as she has these thoughts...) Because he knows his pests, he is the best Because he knows his pests...aaaaaahhhhhh Because his hair is blond, it turns me on Because his hair is blond..... .aaaaaaaahhhh Lockhart's smart, brave and kind! For him I'll stand in line. Because his eyes are blue, it makes me sigh Because his eyes are blue.......aaaaaaaahhhh Aaaaahhhhhhhhhh.... ~Lilac, who kinda likes filking these teeny-tiny Beatles songs ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Professor, can you show me that blocking thing again?" Lockhart cuffed Harry merrily on the shoulder. "Just do what I did, Harry!" "What, drop my wand?" --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fun_n_games_2663 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 06:37:03 2002 From: fun_n_games_2663 at yahoo.com (fun_n_games_2663) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 06:37:03 -0000 Subject: Gandalf and the Magic Dishwasher Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47180 It is with great tripidation that I make this post. Frankly, I have avoided the magic dishwasher debate because it has been in TBAY, and I'm simply not as eloquent as those that post there regularly. I believe that Grey Wolf is right--Magic Dishwasher is only a theory, not gospel. The only thing that will break the theory, though, is cannonical evidence or a better theory until one is proven right. I for one think Magic Dishwasher is an excellent theory (if I understand it correctly). I wait with bated breath for the unifying post, because I certainly don't understand it all. For purposes of this post, I will state my simple understanding of the theory--that Dumbledore is waging a war with V through the use of spies and has actually trapped V with a defective potion. I would, however, offer a different theory. What if Dumbldore doesn't know all that is going on, although he knows more than others. Further, what if he chooses, for whatever reason, to not be the lead actor in the battle with V, but to be the powerful "counselor" who encourages the lesser mortals to take responsibility into their own hands and carry on the fight? I liken this to Gandalf--the wizard who has the power to fight Sauron himself, but because of moral codes and the codes of the Gods, must only counsel the humans, encourage them to do what is right, give them sufficient knowledge to wage the battle--but ultimately let winning or losing the battle rest with those who will be left when the battle is over. Yes! I have cannon to support the theory. In PS, Dumbledore gives Harry the tools and knowledge to fight V--he teaches him about the mirror, he has Hagrid pick up the stone with Harry in tow, etc. I get the feeling in PS that Dumbledore knows exactly what Harry is doing to uncover the secret. He probably knows that Harry has mistakenly pinned it on Snape. He's going to let the action go, however, and let the "lesser humans" assume the responsibility for protecting the stone. Ultimately, though, he lets Harry choose--do I go through the trap door? Do I fight? It is Harry's choice to jump into the battle, and ultimately it is Harry who must win, with a last minute save by D pulling Quirellmort off of Harry. This theory can be carried through the other books. In CoS, Dumbledore calls Harry into his office and asks him if there is anything Harry wants to tell him. When Harry says no, Dumbledore lets him go. I get the feeling in this section that D is asking Harry if he needs help. Once again though, he shows Harry the tools he will need--the hat and Fawkes. Once again, Harry has to choose to jump into battle by going down the opening. It is also ultimately Harry who must win the fight, once again with a few more favors from D in the form of Fawkes and the sword. In the end, Dumbledore tells Harry the upshot of my theory--"It is our choices that make us who we are." With regard to the Snape assassin! theory, I would once again posit that Dumbledore can only give Snape the information and tools he needs to carry out his part in the battle. It is Snape who must choose ultimately whether he will join the fray and how he will go about it. If Snape feels he must kill Karkaroff to get back into V's good graces, it will be Snape's decision and not D's. Because of my theory, I would disagree with the defective potion portion of magic dishwasher, because it presumes that D is the Master Chess Player--moving pieces (in the form of Snape, Harry, and others) in his fight with V, as opposed to merely being the counselor who provides those who must live with the future with the tools necessary to fight against the orchestrations of V. D doesn't necessarily know which move V is going to make. Even D says in GoF that he didn't know Crouch!Moody was the imposter until he took Harry away. How could D be the Master Chess Player if he doesn't know that a spy is sitting right next to him? No--many things come as a suprise to D. He is not all knowing, but he finds the information and provides the tools necessary to let "the future" make their own choices to carry on the fight in response to what V does. Under this theory, D doesn't have to choose to let one die to save twenty. He is merely arming the rest of the wizarding world as best as he can to defend themselves. He won't be around forever to be their champion. The interesting question if this theory is right, of course, is why D seems to think he should let others settle the battle with V instead of just marching off and hunting down Vapor!mort while he is in hiding. Once again, I think D wants to try Harry by fire and see if he makes the right choices before D can safely fade into the "next great adventure" knowing that he has been succeeded by a worthy candidate. I know this isn't as fantastic a scenario as magic dishwasher, but I believe it more plausible. Allright--shoot me down. I'm ready! By the way, I'm leaving town for Turkey day, and won't be able to defend myself for a week. I hope someone agrees with me and will help me out! Russ--Fun_n_games. From menollycg at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 04:22:07 2002 From: menollycg at yahoo.com (Liz Shouse) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:22:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Significance of Peter Pettigrew's Name (WAS: Big pointer to Snape as Vampire Message-ID: <20021126042207.46580.qmail@web41107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47181 Chris said: "Does it not? Sirus is a dog, while miniva is a cat. Could Dumbledore be a bumblebee, and Draco a dragon?" Menolly says: Now I'm not disagreesing with Chris but I am concerned about the possibility of the names being read into too much. JKR has made comments in interviews about the names being from Greek and Roman religions so these names are going to have some outside meaning to them. Whether or not their meanings will foreshadow something to be read in later books remains to be seen. Personally I think it does, just to what extent I honestly do not know. Any comments on what was just said will be well received. Menolly(HP fan) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From twileen at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 06:50:59 2002 From: twileen at yahoo.com (Twileen Janeen) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 22:50:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard Population and Other Schools In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021126065059.73882.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47182 I don't know if this has been brought up before, but it hasn't seemed to have come up in this particular thread. But I don't believe that Harry's year is at all a reliable basis for calculating the number of students at Hogwarts. After all, in the years prior to his birth Voldemort was on the rise and the world was getting scarier by the minute. So it would be natural for people to be having fewer children every year. The DEs wouldn't be having many kids either, because as Hagrid tells us going to the other side makes one uninterested and uncaring (much like many drugs, I'd like to add). Each year over Harry's and under Ginny's would have more students. My take on early schooling is that children from wizarding families would have to be home schooled or go to primary schools specifically for wizarding children. Obviously they don't normally learn magic, because we know that kids enter Hogwarts on a pretty even level of knowlege. There is loads of support for this opinion. So many pure-blooded children know next to nothing about muggle society, and don't you think there would be an awkward moment when the teacher says, "And what do your mommy and daddy do?" As for the UK's wizard population in general I'm of the opinion that it is really not all that large. Evidence to the contrary is often easily put to rest. For example: Diagon Alley is constantly crowded because it is narrow and difficult for any substantial amount of people to move about freely. Also, in the wizarding world, manucturing takes much less man power as everything is produced using magic. This accounts for the vast variety of items and services offered because everyone needs a job, and there aren't really all that many grunt work jobs available so people have to come up with new ideas. Thats my take, anyhow. -Twileen __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From twileen at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 07:11:48 2002 From: twileen at yahoo.com (Twileen Janeen) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:11:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Snape/Vodemort Musings In-Reply-To: <3DE25705.1DC1136A@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <20021126071148.22823.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47183 --- jazmyn wrote: > Crouch/Moody had to drink it once an hour too and he > pulled it off. He pulled it off because Moody was known for being paranoid and always drinking out of a personal flask. I think someone whose opinions we have access to would have noticed if Snape was constantly drinking some mystery liquid from some personal container. But then he *is* a potions master and it could just be expected. > Snape cannot show himself to Voldemort as himself, > that is for sure. > "One, who I believe has left me forever ... he will > be killed, of > course" We know Snape is not a coward. He didn't > run, he stayed at > Hoggwarts. So there is no way Snape can just pop in > and say 'sorry I > missed the meeting, bit of traffic, you know. Can I > just get a copy of > the 'minutes' from the secretary and get back to my > potions?' Volde > would toast his muffins on the spot.. and send him > back to Hoggwarts in > a matchbox.. > > No, if he does go back to spying, he would HAVE to > do it in disguise. Here is where things get really complicated. Because if I'm not mistaken Snape wasn't just a spy, he was a double agent, probably leaking authorized information from Dumbledore to Voldemort. So he really has an excuse to not have shown up in the graveyard that night. He was absolutely surrounded by agents of goodness (for lack of a better term), and not low scale agents either-- people like Dumbledore and Fudge (because even though he's a fool, Fudge is still the Minister). It would have been uber suspicious if Snape had run off of the Hogwarts grounds suddenly just before everything happened and then reappeared soon after. This is something Voldie would appreciate if he still wants someone inside Hogwarts, and isn't hell bent on killing Snape already. --twileen __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From twileen at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 07:25:51 2002 From: twileen at yahoo.com (Twileen Janeen) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:25:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Revisitng The Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021126072551.27034.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47184 --- Fer Mendoza wrote: > The "Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of > Underage Sorcery" > states that an underaged wizard/witch cannot > practice magic outside > school. Do you think the Hogwarts express is > considered an extension > of the school (Hogwarts)? This is a really interesting point. I think that there is a whole lot more to that decree than we know about, well obviously. As we see everything through Harry's POV we're lead to believe that there are really serious consequences to using magic outside of school, but all examples have lead to pardons. It seems to me that the decree is mostly used to keep those of a more reckless age from exposing muggles to magic mostly because its annoying to have to send people out to modify memories. This opinion is greatly influenced by the earlier discussion of expulsion from school meaning the ultimate end of a person's growth as a wizard. Come on, if you're going to trash the rest of someone's life it ought to be for something more serious than ruining some muggle's pudding, right? That traveled a bit from the point. Yes, I think that the Hogwarts Express is considered an extension of Hogwarts simply because its a relatively controlled environment, and there is no way any muggles are going to be exposed. --twileen __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 10:41:23 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:41:23 -0000 Subject: Wizard Population APOLOGY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47185 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., wynnde1 at a... wrote: > > In a message dated 25/11/2002 10:32:40 GMT Standard Time, > > bboy_mn writes: > > > > > > > The size of the economy appears to in indicate a fairly large > > > wizard population. If we accept that as true, then we have to > > > figure out where all these missing students are, if they are not > > > at Hoqwarts. > > > > > > > > > WENDY Replies: > > Well, here's another invitation to explain your theory at a bit > > more length - on what are you basing your estimates of the > > "size of the wizard economy?" I'm no economics whiz, but I haven't > > really noticed much in the books that strikes me one way or the > > other as indicative of the size of the wizarding economy. > > > > ...edited... > > So what have you got? I'd like to hear your evidence before I > > accept your above statement as "true?" > > BBOY_MN reponds in part: > > You seem to have missed the long paragraph where I explained that > neither the wizarding population nor the student population can be > resolved. > > You also seemed to have overlooked keywords in my statement like - > 'appears', 'fairy large' (not huge), and 'if/then' > > *IF* we start with the *supposition* that the wizard economy > indicates a *fairly large* population *then* we must reconcile > the missing students. -end bboy_mn this part- bboy_mn humbly responds: Upon reflection, and a brief correspondence with Wendy, I think my reply may have come off much harsher than I intended. Wendy challenged me to prove my statements as if I felt they were absolute FACTS. All I really want to do was point her back to my references indicating that this was all hypothetical. IF was assume a large population, THEN how do we account for the missing student. I hypothesized a school system that satisfied many of the requirements; such as, allowing Hogwarts to be the only school of it's kind while creating schools for the missing student, and a school system that was somewhat consistent with the British system. I am genuinely sorry, it Wendy or anyone else interpreted my response as harsh, belligerent, snotty, or just plain ill mannered. I think perhaps, I responded as I did because I took Wendy's challenge to be much stronger than she actually intended, or perhaps, I misunderstood it all together. I truly enjoy these discussions, and am always amazed at how detail some of the analysis can be. I welcome all opinions, and all challenges to my own. I mean, if no one ever challenges my opinions, that would imply they weren't much of an opinion to start with. It seems a few times before, my post have been taken to be much harsher than I ever intended. I'm sure part of is my subtle and slightly warped sense of humor. Part of it is probably the immediacy of the internet; not a medium that encourages long reflection. I assure you I am a gentle soul who is not in the habit of insulting people or making light of their ideas or opinions. Finally, if anyone saw or felt a degree of hostility in my response, I assure you it was unintentional, and I truly appologies. bboy_mn From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Tue Nov 26 10:59:45 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:59:45 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CoS Theories In-Reply-To: <200211252229540893.073953FA@mail.indigosky.net> References: <4.2.0.58.20021126024719.0098f4a0@plum.cream.org> <4.2.0.58.20021126024719.0098f4a0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021126093739.00980af0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 47186 At 22:29 25/11/02 -0500, Indigo wrote, in reply to my musings about casting an adult actor to play Tom Riddle: >I don't think so. It's normal Hollywood convention for casting people to >pick older actors to play younger parts. The 90210 kids were portrayed by >adults. The analogy is facile and specious. All of the Hogwarts pupils are played by actors within a couple of years of their characters' ages (and believably so). On the face of it, there is absolutely no reason for the production team to depart from that policy. As I said previously, there are only two exceptions to that policy: Moaning Myrtle and Tom Riddle. We already know why Myrtle had to be played by someone unlikely to change over the next couple of years (she should be appearing in GoF in 2-3 years), so why Tom Riddle? Especially when he is *so* obviously not 16? >Possibly, you have a point, since we already know in the books that >Voldemort gets his own body back. I don't think it was made clear whether >this new body was a ringer for Riddle or whether it looked different based >on the blood of the ally/blood of the enemy spell. Err, yes it was made clear. Page 227 UK edition (start of Ch. 17, "The Heir of Slytherin"): "Tom Riddle had been at Hogwarts fifty years ago, yet here he stood, a weird, misty light shining about him, not a day older than 16." OK, the movie dropped the "misty light", but *why* did it drop the "not a day older than 16"? As I said previously, the fact that he patently did *not* look that way undermined the whole plot of the movie for non book-readers. There must be a very good reason why the production team took that huge risk. > >I therefore propose that observation in support of a theory I've had for > >some time (and seen mentioned in various places by others as well), which > >is that Voldemort's ultimate downfall will not be his death, but the > >undoing of all the changes he underwent since leaving Hogwarts, and a > >return to his previous form as an adolescent. The ultimate "second > >chance", > >a recurring theme in the books! > >Interesting thought, but I am not so sure I think that would be considered >wise. Riddlemort's nature would have to change at the intrinsic basic >level to not have him rise all over again, wouldn't it? And then there's >the morality of the "would you kill Hitler" question coming back into play. I'm well aware of that. Complicated morality is at the heart of these books, and that kind of moral conundrum is just the kind of thing I could see JKR attempting to tackle. Furthermore, whilst the importance of "choice over abilities" has also been highlighted, JKR has also not shied away from illustrating the fact that some "choices" are thrust upon us (inheritance - both in terms of of material possessions and heritage - wealth, social standing, etc). Riddle/Voldemort is a good example of this. Having Riddle end up without any of those advantages would make an interesting finale. That I suspect Harry will also end up stripped of his magical powers is a different conversation. From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 11:21:08 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:21:08 -0000 Subject: Wizard Population and Other Schools In-Reply-To: <3DE2C9D4.2A4D7543@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47187 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jazmyn wrote: > Harry went to a muggle grade school and one supposes that 'purebred' > wizards are either home schooled or go to muggle schools, depending on > how their parents feel about muggles. Or there might be some sort of > magic books that teach basic grade school stuff. Could be any or all > methods. > I kinda get the idea that a wizards powers don't really start > to kick in till they are at least 10-11 years old. Or they would not > dare let kids under 11 have wands! They do not /give/ them wands until they're under 11! Little wizards *do* use magic when they're just little kids, look at 2-year-old Kevin (who was being scolded by his mother for *touching* Daddy's wand... it's not like he was /given/ that wand, mind you). Of course, it seems that magic does grow by age. Don't know how much magic Kevin can do without a wand... but anyway, every adult wizards supposedly knows all the counter-spells to anything their kids may accidentally do. It's even expected that wizarding-kid does accidental magic (as Neville's history with Uncle Algie shows). And no, a wizard-born child wouldn't be attending a Muggle-school; A wizarding child in a Muggle-class would do so much accidental magic (We know Harry did even though he himself didn't at the time) against the helpless Muggles, that NO way is a wizard's magical kid going to go into Muggle school and scare all the teachers with his daring seeming jumps from high up (school roof?) to end with a miraculously safe landing where a Muggle kid would have at least broken a limb... But I do think that a witch or wizard /might/ attend a Muggle professional school, particularly as no wizard ones exist. I think that some of the staff in St Mungos is educated in both Muggle and Wizard medics... And perhaps it was St Mungos where Dursleys took Dudley to get rid of the pig-tail, recommended by Mrs Figg (who may have /worked/ there in her youth and married a Muggle? At least she knows how long she must walk with a stick when she's broken a leg). -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 12:02:03 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:02:03 -0000 Subject: Voices from the past In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47188 With the help of a Dementor, Harry hears his Dad telling Lily to run while he helds him[Voldemort] off. This is further past than Lily's death (which Harry heard on a separate occasion before this with Dementors). This is Harry's worst memory. While it IS clear that a 13-year-old Harry can't be expected to remember what his parents sounded/looked like or anything at ALL about that night even though he did, somehow, remember the Green Light with no help from anyone. He did keep touching that memory as one touches a sore place, but after Hagrid told him the truth, he also remembered Voldemort's laughter. It's a memory of the one-year-old, the one-year-old who DID know what his parents sounded like, if not much else. The one-year-old's mind associated those voices with his parents, and that association is a part of the memory. There's nothing a one-year-old fears more than losing his parents. It is that, therefore, that to Harry, a Dementor symbolises the fear itself. Why didn't Harry *see* his parent's death in this, BTW? He says he *hears* them, but doesn't mention anything he saw except ever-so- famous Green Light? -- Finwitch From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 12:13:21 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:13:21 -0000 Subject: CoS Theories In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021126093739.00980af0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47189 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: > At 22:29 25/11/02 -0500, Indigo wrote, in reply to my musings about casting an adult actor to play Tom Riddle: > INDIGO: > > I don't think so. It's normal Hollywood convention for casting > > people to >pick older actors to play younger parts. The 90210 > > kids were portrayed by adults. -end- > GulPlum: > > The analogy is facile and specious. All of the Hogwarts pupils are > played by actors within a couple of years of their characters' ages > (and believably so). On the face of it, there is absolutely no > reason for the production team to depart from that policy. > > As I said previously, there are only two exceptions to that policy: > Moaning Myrtle and Tom Riddle. We already know why Myrtle had to be > played by someone unlikely to change over the next couple of years > (she should be appearing in GoF in 2-3 years), so why Tom Riddle? > Especially when he is *so* obviously not 16? > > ...edited large section... >GulPlum bboy_mn: I think the choice was based on very practical matters. They could spend months searching for kids to play the part, and risk not finding one. Then having to deal with someone with little or no experience. They needed an actor that had similar features and appearence to Harry/Daniel which complicated the search. Or, they could go with a good looking dark haired seasoned actor who was youthful in appearance, and was available immediately and able to dramatically play a crucial role. As far as how he looked, let's keep in mind that kids at this age have an extreme range of appearances, that usually all even out by adulthood. You have 16 year old short skinny very boyish students, and you have big tall beefy 16 year old football players, then you have very tall skinny basketball players. In the middle, muscular average height gynasts, swimmers, and wrestlers. The range of body types at any give age in the range 12 to 18 is extreme, and saying any one person doesn't fit the model of a 16 year old is a difficult thing to do with any accuracy. So, in short, I think they were forced by circumstances, primarily schedule, to go with someone like Christian Coulson. By the way, I thought he did a fine job. Just a few thought. bboy_mn From charisjulia at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 12:22:55 2002 From: charisjulia at hotmail.com (charisjulia) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:22:55 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Banging On The Dishwasher (WAS Dumbledore's head ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47190 (Sorry this is coming in a bit late but unfortunately I have almost no access to the Net on the weekends . . . and there are so many interesting treads developing at the moment I hardly have time to catch up! Anyway, the Snape discussion seems to be holding strong, so I'll just take advantage of that to slip in the following. . .) Cindy wrote: >"You know, I think Saboteur!Snape has the same sort of problem that >the MAGICDISHWASHER folks are having," Cindy said calmly. "There's >a certain lack of tension in Saboteur!Snape. I mean, what happens >if Saboteur!Snape fails?" > >"Fails?" asked Charis Julia. > >"Right. Fails. Like Snape goes to Azkaban and can't conjure a >Patronus. Are you saying that he'll just say, 'Uh-oh. Should have >paid attention in DADA classes after all. Right then, Dementors, >I'll shove off now'? Or he'll get his soul sucked out on the spot >and that's it for Snape for the next three books? The lack of >tension is that if Snape succeeds in booting the Dementors out of >Azkaban, it doesn't Bang. And if he fails, it only Bangs a little >bit at best. Nah, if JKR is going to sacrifice Snape, it's not >going to be half a page of him feeling woozy and cold before his >soul is sucked out. Oh, no. If Snape dies, it will be *huge,* and >for me anyway, intensely satisfying. It will go on and on and on. >I just don't think Saboteur!Snape has enough heft for a character >like Snape." Hmph. You know, Cindy, I get the feeling that you don't fully appreciate the limitless Bang potential of my ingenious conception. . . So you want satisfaction, do you? You want tension? You want * heft *? And I suppose that by all of that you mean gore and grime and * Snape's* head on a platter? A?ha! Saboteur!Snape can deliver! See, it all depends on exactly what you are envisioning when you say "fail". Much as I personally delighted in the prospect of a Snape writhing and screaming on the floor at the feet of a rattle? breathing, foul?smelling, rotty-- handed Dementor, I'm afraid Derannimer's theory had cancelled out that scenario. But, there are other possibilities, oh yes, indeed there are. . . For starters, well, I suppose Snape could always be caught in the act by the Ministry, which I guess would mean that he would then get thrown into Azkaban probably without trial (Trial? What trial? What is that? I'm afraid I don't understand. . .) This idea does have a certain appeal (oh the irony! Snape with the same fate as Sirius! Maybe even then Dumbledore could then send Sirius to go *save * Snape. Ho ho ho. . .)This notwithstanding, it still only leaves me lukewarm, so lets just move on to the really interesting stuff. You see, the way I imagine it, the incarcerated Death Eaters, once let out of Azkaban, are going to be Mad. A little woozy at first maybe, but mainly just Mad. And, of course, they're going to want Revenge. Now, Pettigrew's not going to be the one to get it. He'd be first on their list of course, but Pettigrew's got Voldemort's protection and anyway he's more than proved his dedication to the Dark Cause. The Death Eaters are going to have to relinquish him. But is there anybody else who could maybe take his place? Anybody else who really * did* betray the Dark Lord? A--ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! Oh, yes. By going into Azkaban Snape is basically walking straight into the lion's den. What will happen? Oh I don't know, you can take your pick really. The Death Eaters could take on Snape themselves or they could hand him over to Voldemort. Or both. And after that. . . well does anybody * really* need any further elucidations? As for what happens if Snape *succeeds *. . . well, that would depend on the situation in the wizarding world at the time, wouldn't it? Would Voldemort's return have been acknowledged by the rest of the wizarding world or not? Would any more attacks have taken place? Would Fudge still be in office? Would Rita Skeeter still work for the "Daily Prophet"? Would full?scale war or the fight against terror or whatever have been declared? Would Hogwarts still be working? What would the Old Crowd be up to? . . . I mean, be fair will you, I can't answer all these questions, don't look at me, I'm just sitting in front of a computer screen cooking up loony theories, * I* don't know anything about it. However, if you must have something, there is one idea Frankie suggested to me in a mail off list. What if after being blown out of Azkaban the Death Eaters were then hauled over to Hogwarts and put away in the * Hogwerts'* dungeons? Hey! Then Snape could both keep up the teaching job he so dearly loves * and* be their jailer all at once! And anyway, why does Hogwarts even * have* a dungeon? >Derannimer (who thinks that Saboteur!Snape needs a good acronym, and >would like to officially request one, as long as Charis Julia (who he >belongs to, after all) has no objection) Charis Julia frowns uncertainly. "Gee, I don't know about that Derannimer. . . I mean, yeah, sure, I know things * used* to be different . . . When TAGWATCH was in it's heyday acronym requests were complied with in no time! Two a knut they were then, acronyms, why, you just got them for the asking! But nowadays? . . . Ah, hard times are upon us, winter coming, storm approaching . . . Original TAGWATCH products . . . ooooh, quite the luxury item they are now, very hard to come by, even the best theories have to go without. . ." "But. . ." Charis goes on hesitantly, "If you'd settle for a second class imitation . . . : S.O.U.L.S.U.C.K.E.D.!S.N.A.P.E. Snape, Oblivious to the Unpractical Limitations of a Soul, Undoes Cruel Kissers, Expels Dementors and, as Sentry Newly Appointed, Patrols over Evildoers. Charis Julia From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Nov 26 12:39:57 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:39:57 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Banging On The Dishwasher (WAS Dumbledore's head ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47191 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "charisjulia" wrote: > However, if you must have something, there is one idea Frankie > suggested to me in a mail off list. What if after being blown out of > Azkaban the Death Eaters were then hauled over to Hogwarts and put > away in the * Hogwerts'* dungeons? Hey! Then Snape could both keep up > the teaching job he so dearly loves * and* be their jailer all at > once! I find that highly unlikely. Dumbledore hates Dementors; in PoA he strenuously objected to even having them near the school, and he wouldn't allow them on school grounds. He certainly wouldn't allow a whole colony of them to take up permanent residence in the castle itself. > And anyway, why does Hogwarts even * have* a dungeon? > It's a castle. Castles have dungeons. It's a rule. :-) Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 14:40:04 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:40:04 -0000 Subject: Name Meanings (WAS: Significance of Peter Pettigrew's Name) In-Reply-To: <20021126042207.46580.qmail@web41107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47192 Chris wrote: > Sirus is a dog, while Minerva is a cat. Could Dumbledore be a > bumblebee, and Draco a dragon? and Menolly (Liz Shouse) responded: > Now I'm not disagreeing with Chris but I am concerned > about the possibility of the names being read into too > much. JKR has made comments in interviews about the > names being from Greek and Roman religions so these > names are going to have some outside meaning to them. > Whether or not their meanings will foreshadow > something to be read in later books remains to be > seen. Personally I think it does, just to what extent > I honestly do not know. Now me: I think a lot of the names have hidden meanings, but they don't all indicate the animagus the wizard can turn into. With regard to Draco, I would find it hard to believe that he can turn into a dragon, given his limited talents. While I'm not an astronomer, the "Draco" star constellation looks a lot to me like a backwards number 5. Perhaps this means Draco Malfoy will be the one to die in book 5? Although that wouldn't be a "bad" death (IMO, anyway - Lucius and Narcissa would probably beg to differ). The constellation also resembles the letter "S," which could be suggestive of his Slytherin proclivities. ~Phyllis always thinking HP, even when playing with my son's "Star Theater" From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 14:54:37 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:54:37 -0000 Subject: Why Harry Doesn't See His Parents Dying (WAS: Voices from the past) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47193 Finwitch asked: > Why didn't Harry *see* his parent's death in this, BTW? He says he > *hears* them, but doesn't mention anything he saw except ever-so- > famous Green Light? Now me: How painful do we want to make this experience for the poor boy?? But even putting that aside, IMO, JKR is intentionally withholding crucial information about the night Lily and James died. We probably won't know all of the answers about that night until Book 7. We're getting bits and pieces along the way, but we clearly don't have the full picture, and there must be a good reason - it must be crucial to the plot, and therefore crucial that we don't have all of the answers just yet. So when Harry comes face to face with the dementors, fog conveniently obscures his senses, and all he can do is hear. Harry also passes out after hearing the voices. His experience right before fainting is very similar to the pre-fainting experiences I've had - where I can still hear what's going on, but everything starts to go blurry. ~Phyllis From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Nov 26 15:22:56 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:22:56 EST Subject: Misinterpreted!Snape/ Kantian Snape (was PASHMINAS and all sorts of other things Message-ID: <1c9.221ef84.2b14ebd0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47194 "And another thing!" said Eloise, still vainly trying to awaken Cindy from her slumber on the bar. "Oh well, *you'll" listen to me, won't you Amanda?" she said, addressing the ghostly, PASHMINA-clad form hovering next to her. "You know that passage at the end of GoF that we keep talking about, when Harry and Snape hold each other's gaze and we keep trying to work out what it means? Well, l think now that it's to do with what you were saying about Harry misinterpreting Snape's actions." "How's that?" "Well....During GoF, we first have the bombshell that Snape *was* a DE and then we're told that he changed sides and we hear of Dumbledore's unshakeable confidence in him. So as far as the reader's concerned, we now *know*, JKR has *told* us that Snape's OK. So whatever he gets up to in the next book, we should be confident that he's acting for the good, shouldn't we?" "We should, but Harry never is." "Exactly! As you've pointed out, that's never been Snape's function in the books. Even though I was telling my kids from CoS, that Snape's OK, there were always those lingering doubts, largely articulated through Harry, that he wasn't. He's *always* open to misinterpetation and never more so than by Harry. "Now, at this point, we've been told clearly that Snape is a trusted member of Dumbledore's team and JKR goes and throws in this curious little passage where Harry reviews the evidence and wonders why Dumbledore trusts him and whether he's resuming spying. Why? If it's misdirection (trying to make us think that he's going back to spying when he's not) it is, as I've said before, IMHO extremely clumsy. If it's *not* misdirection, what's it there for? People often suggest that it's because the two ot them are reappraising each other. Yes, I think Snape's perhaps reappraising Harry, but Harry? Couldn't this passage's function be not to suggest that Harry's gaining respect or whatever for Snape, but precisely to maintain the fact in the reader's mind that Harry *still* doesn't know what to make of him? That Harry is still likely to doubt Dumbledore's judgement regarding Snape, that Harry, from whose POV we largely see events, is *not* going to be privy to what he does? And so form a link to his carrying on misinterpeting him in the next book as he always has? Without that passage, we start Book 5 with Harry having objectively seen Snape's conversion and full membership of Dumbledore's team, just as we have. With it, Book 5 starts just as all the others with Snape maintaining his ambiguity in Harry's eyes. "No, you're right, Amanda. We can't have an unambiguous Snape, a Snape who is clearly and unequivocably both on the right side and seen to be on the right side. That's never been his function in the books and I can't see it happening now. "While we're on the subject of Snape, I was rootling about in the archives today and came across that discussion we had about Snape and the philosophy of virtue, you know, the one where quite a few people came up with the same conclusion, that Snape is a very Kantian character. I'd just like to quote from this one," And she drew from inside her robes a faded, yellow parchment and began to read: "No.: 35868 From: "vilaphile" Subject: Re: Snape and the philosophy of virtue Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:27:05 -0000 <> I would say Kant is the 'Snapiest' philosopher. Kant says people must act virtuously, regardless of their inclinations otherwise, that rationality is all-important, and that the most important imperative is not to treat other people as means to ends, but to respect them as ends in themselves. I think this last point is quite a crucial one for Snape, he may not *like* other people, and he may think they are rather stupid, but he has an underlying principle, which won't let him use them as mere toys or tools, regardless of inclinations otherwise, which is what separates him from the DEs. Alison "And this, I contend", said Eloise, drawing her PASHMINAS tightly around her, "is precisely why neither he nor Dumbledore would stoop to killing Karkaroff to further their ends." Eloise From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Tue Nov 26 15:48:17 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:48:17 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard Population and Other Schools References: Message-ID: <3DE397C1.29E776BB@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47195 finwitch wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jazmyn wrote: > > > Harry went to a muggle grade school and one supposes that 'purebred' > > wizards are either home schooled or go to muggle schools, depending > on > > how their parents feel about muggles. Or there might be some sort > of > > magic books that teach basic grade school stuff. Could be any or > all > > methods. > > I kinda get the idea that a wizards powers don't really start > > to kick in till they are at least 10-11 years old. Or they would > not > > dare let kids under 11 have wands! > > They do not /give/ them wands until they're under 11! Little wizards You mean OVER 11, not under. You don't let kids under 10 learn how to shoot a gun either. My uncle taught me when I was 12 at least and my parents would not even let me touch a BB Gun before that.. They acted like it was a rattlesnake or something. By the time I did learn, I was a little nervous about handling them at first and still treat them with great respect. No doubt Wizard parents would take care to keep wands out of the kids hands, though some parents are more responsible then others. Seems there are just as many 'idiots with kids' in the WW as in the muggle world.. As seen by 'Kevin' or the little girls flying toy brooms where muggles might see them at the campground during the Quidditch Cup. One thinks they might have had less trouble if they just confided in the muggle who ran the place and paid him off to keep quiet.. rather then give him brain damage with too many memory spells... Sheesh, how many can one guy take anyways?? > *do* use magic when they're just little kids, look at 2-year-old > Kevin (who was being scolded by his mother for *touching* Daddy's > wand... it's not like he was /given/ that wand, mind you). Of course, > it seems that magic does grow by age. Don't know how much magic Kevin > can do without a wand... but anyway, every adult wizards supposedly > knows all the counter-spells to anything their kids may accidentally > do. It's even expected that wizarding-kid does accidental magic (as > Neville's history with Uncle Algie shows). > > And no, a wizard-born child wouldn't be attending a Muggle-school; A > wizarding child in a Muggle-class would do so much accidental magic > (We know Harry did even though he himself didn't at the time) against > the helpless Muggles, that NO way is a wizard's magical kid going to > go into Muggle school and scare all the teachers with his daring > seeming jumps from high up (school roof?) to end with a miraculously > safe landing where a Muggle kid would have at least broken a limb... > > But I do think that a witch or wizard /might/ attend a Muggle > professional school, particularly as no wizard ones exist. I think > that some of the staff in St Mungos is educated in both Muggle and > Wizard medics... And perhaps it was St Mungos where Dursleys took > Dudley to get rid of the pig-tail, recommended by Mrs Figg (who may > have /worked/ there in her youth and married a Muggle? At least she > knows how long she must walk with a stick when she's broken a leg). > > -- Finwitch > I think pre-wizard schooling is up to the parents. Some wizard families MIGHT send a kid to a muggle school. I'm sure Arther Weasley might if they lived near a good one, but I get the impression they live WAY out in the country and home schooling is more convenient then dealing with the local muggle school.. or maybe they did send some of them and we never heard about it. Might explain a few things about Bill's 'rock star' style clothes, earring and such? Too much exposure to Muggle kids! Maybe Molly didn't like the influence the muggle kids gave him and decided to home school the rest. ;) Jazmyn From editor at texas.net Tue Nov 26 15:57:52 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:57:52 -0000 Subject: A little clarification on hurt feelings and flame wars Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47196 *Amanda picks up her cane, creaks to her feet, and hobbles over to speak* Having just proven that I can be a dry, droning manifestation over in TBAY, I shall now keep my hand in by being dry and droning over here for a little bit. I will claim a bit of privilege given my eons on the list and discuss the list, not canon. Indulge me in this, and apologies to the listMods for this (and if any of you think we Old Guys don't get called on the carpet, think again). Speaking as a humble but very, very, very, very old listmember, I think a little bit of clarification might be in order. First, definitions: Person - a living, breathing, thinking, feeling carbon-based hominid lifeform. In this usage, refers to a listmember. Theory - a collection of ideas assembled to explain something or other. Foundations can range from solid rock to sand to wispy vapor. Please note that these are two completely different things. Spirited list discussions and exchanges of opinion occur when Theories are challenged, inspected, dissected, refuted, and otherwise chewed on. Flame wars, on the other hand, occur when People are chewed on. This can be a fine distinction, so for clarity's sake, two examples. Non-TBAY example- Discussion: "The theory that Snape might be part (or full) vampire holds absolutely no water. The canon support for it is shaky, there are already plenty of non- or partial humans worked into the story, and Snape has enough issues to deal with without involving his species. The themes of prejudice and bigotry have their main vehicles in Lupin, Hagrid, and the house-elves; Snape is the poster child for other themes in these books (choice, mostly-his own and Harry's choice in his perception of him, and the repercussions thereof). The Vampire theory is just wrong. I wish it had never been proposed; I just know future books will destroy it and I can't wait. Flame: "The theory that Snape might be part (or full) vampire holds absolutely no water. The people who think there is canon support for this should have their heads examined. Jeez. How could any right-minded person possibly think there's any basis to this theory? Get real. How many times do we have to explain to you fruit bats that Snape doesn't need to be a vampire for his character to be effective? etc." See? The Discussion might seem a bit like an attack, and someone's feelings could be hurt, but it was not saying anything about the theory's authors or adherents. It was just blunt (and edging into rude; the point is that it is blunt and rude about a Theory). Contrast it with the real Flame-potential in the second version, where the mental abilities, taste, etc., of People are questioned. That is over the line. TBAY, now. TBAY is a sort of communal Pensieve where theories are objectified (or personified) and interact with the personas of listmembers. Any listmember can come in and play; once a theory is made, it takes on its own life and is fair game for the creative minds of TBAYers. Because the theories have, in a way, been dissociated from their creators (and in many cases nobody remembers who the creator is), and because many minds can contribute to the interactions, TBAY is fertile ground for the forming of new associations, ideas, and linkages. [Not to mention darned entertaining.] As for a TBAY example, TBAY writing is difficult for me and I shall simply expound. In TBAY, discussion on theory often takes a more active and symbolic form. So someone could take a handcart and go get the MAGIC DISHWASHER and dump it in the Bay, or sneak aboard a ship and spike a cannon, or tar and feather George. These are theories., The appropriate response would be along the lines of commandeering a vessel to haul the washer out, cutting an anchor line, or casting the appropriate de-feathering spell (which, might, regrettably, have a side-effect on all the FEATHERBOAs). This is very, very different from dumping Captain Cindy, Eloise, Roo, Abigail, Wolf, or any of the other stalwart TBAY People into the bay or otherwise offering them harm.* Please understand-I will be the first to admit that asking people to not identify with the theories they love is unrealistic, and I know that because "feelings" are in the People equation, sometimes they can get hurt. All I am saying is that, in my opinion, when someone feels challenged or attacked by a post, they should read that post very carefully to make sure what it is actually targeting. Okay. I hope (a) that I made sense; (b) that I was right, and (c) that NOBODY RESPONDS TO THIS ONLIST so I don't get Howlered for starting a non-canon thread. Yell at me offlist. ~Amanda *this doesn't apply to dropping garlic-water balloons on Vampire!Snapetheorists, for complex and technical reasons which the constraints of space preclude me from sufficiently explaining here --where did I put that handcart...? From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Nov 26 16:00:00 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:00:00 -0000 Subject: CoS Theories In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021126093739.00980af0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47197 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: > At 22:29 25/11/02 -0500, Indigo wrote, in reply to my musings about casting > an adult actor to play Tom Riddle: > > >I don't think so. It's normal Hollywood convention for casting people to > >pick older actors to play younger parts. The 90210 kids were portrayed by > >adults. > > The analogy is facile and specious. Facile it may be, and Occam's razor I have to thank for that; but specious? I am sorry, that's not so. Hollywood is not in the habit of casting actors to exact character age necessarily. They cast for who they think can convey the part best. If you prefer more examples from the movies themselves: Snape is canonically in his middle 30s. Alan Rickman is *checks IMDB to confirm* fifty six years old. So again, we have someone cast who is considerably older than the part he is playing. Dumbledore is to the other extreme, with good reason. The character is well over a century old, but Richard Harris was in his seventies. I am fairly certain there is a paucity of venerable actors well over a century of age. Hagrid is well over 50 years old, as he was a teenager "fifty years ago" when Riddle first opened the Chamber. The actor, Robbie Coltraine, is only 52 years old. All of the Hogwarts pupils are played > by actors within a couple of years of their characters' ages (and > believably so). On the face of it, there is absolutely no reason for the > production team to depart from that policy. No reason to your mind for the production team to depart from typical and acceptable Hollywood casting convention. Riddle was a Hogwart's pupil at the time of 50 years ago. But the memory of Riddle was being influenced by the at least 66-year-old mind of Voldemort -- which, as I said [but was snipped] is a good reason for him to have looking older than sixteen. That said, though? It's also possible that he did look sixteen to the casting people. I don't know where you're from, but I personally have seen a goodly number of thirteen year olds who can pass for eighteen, and sixteen year olds who can pass for over 21 without getting carded. I went to school with several of the latter type, actually. > > As I said previously, there are only two exceptions to that policy: Moaning > Myrtle and Tom Riddle. We already know why Myrtle had to be played by > someone unlikely to change over the next couple of years (she should be > appearing in GoF in 2-3 years), so why Tom Riddle? Especially when he is > *so* obviously not 16? > >[snip my flub about the GoF new Voldemort body] > > Err, yes it was made clear. Page 227 UK edition (start of Ch. >17, "The Heir of Slytherin"): "Tom Riddle had been at Hogwarts > fifty years ago, yet here he stood, a weird, misty light shining > about him, not a day older than 16." Mea culpa, mea culpa. My books are in storage, and I haven't been able to find a copy of GoF in my new location to reread it as recently as I saw this missive. > OK, the movie dropped the "misty light", but *why* did it drop the "not a > day older than 16"? As I said previously, the fact that he patently did > *not* look that way undermined the whole plot of the movie for non > book-readers. There must be a very good reason why the production team took > that huge risk. I stand by my thought that young Riddle's body being driven by old Voldemort's mind lends an air of age and "maturity" to young Riddle's face that an actual 16 year old actor might not have been able to pull off. Add to that that the actor chosen does have something of a baby face and I think that the casting team believed it was a balanced decision. See above regarding your own comments about Myrtle: they chose "someone unlikely to change much in the next few years." > > >I therefore propose that observation in support of a theory I've had for > > >some time (and seen mentioned in various places by others as well), which > > >is that Voldemort's ultimate downfall will not be his death, but the > > >undoing of all the changes he underwent since leaving Hogwarts, and a > > >return to his previous form as an adolescent. The ultimate "second > > >chance", > > >a recurring theme in the books! > > > >Interesting thought, but I am not so sure I think that would be considered > >wise. Riddlemort's nature would have to change at the intrinsic basic > >level to not have him rise all over again, wouldn't it? And then there's > >the morality of the "would you kill Hitler" question coming back into play. > > I'm well aware of that. Complicated morality is at the heart of these > books, and that kind of moral conundrum is just the kind of thing I could > see JKR attempting to tackle. Furthermore, whilst the importance of "choice > over abilities" has also been highlighted, JKR has also not shied away from > illustrating the fact that some "choices" are thrust upon us (inheritance - > both in terms of of material possessions and heritage - wealth, social > standing, etc). Riddle/Voldemort is a good example of this. Having Riddle > end up without any of those advantages would make an interesting finale. An interesting one, yes, but it would be, to my mind, out of character for most of the cast. Harry did show mercy to Pettigrew, and regretted doing so when Pettigrew escaped. Harry was willing to show no mercy to Black until he heard sufficient evidence to trust him otherwise. Harry might be willing to show mercy to Voldemort, but considering Harry has grown angrier about the death of his parents as he has grown older, and angrier about Voldemort's continued attempts to kill him -- I don't think Harry is going to remain merciful forever. I'm disinclined to think that a memory charm above and beyond the level of Lockhart's facility for them, being placed on a young Riddle/Voldemort is something anyone would be willing to trust to. [As an example of some way to change Riddle's personality entirely.] Not after all the death Voldemort has caused. The Ministry of Magic lost a number of aurors to Voldemort, to say nothing of the UK wizarding population at large who lost friends and loved ones. Voldemort's name became one that was not spoken, and even the euphemisms were whispered with awe and fear. The Ministry is unlikely to stand behind such an action to render Voldemort no longer a threat. I believe it would take a phenomenal amount of magic [beyond anything we've seen to date] to change Voldemort's personality that much. I also believe that the UK wizarding population would not stand for a memory charm being put on him, or anything that appeared outwardly to have reformed Voldemort to a non-Dark wizard. Voldemort's followers are numerous and ready, willing, and able to restore him to power. All the Death Eaters would have to be defeated this time [as they were not when Voldemort was defeated before] and placed in Azkaban, or worse, given the Kiss, to prevent them from aiding him. In fairness, there is the possibility they'd all scatter to the winds and claim they were cursed but I don't believe that likely to work a second time. --Indigo From dorigen at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 15:31:25 2002 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:31:25 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Malfoy names Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47198 "erisedstraeh2002" said: >While I'm not an astronomer, >the "Draco" star constellation looks a lot to me like a backwards >number 5. Perhaps this means Draco Malfoy will be the one to die in >book 5? Although that wouldn't be a "bad" death (IMO, anyway - >Lucius and Narcissa would probably beg to differ). The constellation >also resembles the letter "S," which could be suggestive of his >Slytherin proclivities. I think it could be simpler than that. 1. Lucius and Draco's names both remind me of Lucifer, aka "that old Serpent" and the Dragon referred to in Revelation and the legends of St. George. Note that either a snake or a dragon menaces Harry either directly or indirectly in three of the four books: Norbert, the Basilisk, and the dragon in the first GoF trial. 2. Their last name, Malfoy, means "bad faith." Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From kokobreen at juno.com Tue Nov 26 16:34:47 2002 From: kokobreen at juno.com (kokobreen at juno.com) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:34:47 GMT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Malfoy names Message-ID: <20021126.113539.27686.49818@wm3.nyc.untd.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47199 The discussion of names has got me wondering, what does Harry Potter mean? Anyone have a book of names and their meanings--what does Harry mean? Does Potter mean anything in any language? Christine From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 16:47:03 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:47:03 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Malfoy names References: <20021126.113539.27686.49818@wm3.nyc.untd.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47200 Aside from the ovious, many english names come from jobs, for example 'smith' comes from 'blacksmith', etc. I think HPs name was chosen to be as ordinary as possible. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Nov 26 16:49:56 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:49:56 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Malfoy names In-Reply-To: <20021126.113539.27686.49818@wm3.nyc.untd.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47201 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., kokobreen at j... wrote: > The discussion of names has got me wondering, what does Harry Potter mean? Anyone have a book of names and their meanings--what does Harry mean? Does Potter mean anything in any language? > > Christine I know "Potter" used to be an old world synonym for "poor person with no family" which does fit Harry. He's a poor little rich boy, [who, at the beginning of the first book] with no blood family [except the Dursleys, who he'd rather not have]. There's also the literal meaning of the name: one who makes pots or who pots things. From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Nov 26 16:59:57 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:59:57 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Malfoy names In-Reply-To: <20021126.113539.27686.49818@wm3.nyc.untd.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47202 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., kokobreen at j... wrote: > The discussion of names has got me wondering, what does Harry Potter mean? Anyone have a book of names and their meanings--what does Harry mean? Does Potter mean anything in any language? > > Christine I know "Potter" used to be an old world synonym for "poor person with no family" which does fit Harry. He's a poor little rich boy, [who, at the beginning of the first book] with no blood family [except the Dursleys, who he'd rather not have]. There's also the literal meaning of the name: one who makes pots or who pots things. From kaityf at jorsm.com Tue Nov 26 17:06:11 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:06:11 -0600 Subject: Harry's Dream (was Re: Voices from the past) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021126104039.0127f018@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47203 Indigo wrote: >I find it entirely plausible for Snape to have been there the night >that Lily and James died...if not a bit of a stretch in cannon. >However, it's a nice explanation for Harry's dream. The thing I find so much fun in interpreting/analyzing these books is that what seems like a stretch when we don't know all the facts turns out to be exactly what happens. I for one never guessed that Quirrel was the bad guy in PS/SS. Once I knew and went back through the book, it seemed terribly obvious. JKR fooled me again in CoS, and that time I was prepared to be fooled. Didn't matter. Until we have all seven books we can't be absolutely sure what any slight mention of something might mean. All we can do is work with what we see JKR's strategies to be -- such as mentioning something in one book only to have it play a dominant role in a future book -- and what is in the book. After that, any theory that explains apparent discrepancies, contradictions, or mysteries is just as likely to happen as the next, as long as there is some justification. In other words, it can't just come out of nowhere. Indigo provides the quotation in question: >"Perhaps Harry had eaten a bit too much, because he had a very >strange dream. He was wearing Professor Quirrell's turban, which kept >talking to him, telling him that he must transfer to Slytherin at >once, because it was his destiny. Harry told the turban that he >didn't want to be in Slytherin; it got heavier and heavier; he tried >to pull it off but it tightened painfully-- and there was Malfoy >laughing at him as he struggled with it-- then Malfoy turned into the >hook-nosed teacher, Snape, whose laugh became high and cold-- there >was a burst of green light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking." Then Indigo says: >Even still, I see it as a bit of stretch...The dream can be >interpreted anyway one chooses it to (as can the rest of >cannon)...The most obvious foreshadowing was that of Quirrell's >turban, since we know who that is...but what I find interesting is >that he says it's Harry's destiny and that the more Harry rejects the >idea, the heavier and more painful his load becomes. Yes, it's obvious NOW that the dream could be a foreshadowing of Quirrel's turban. But that's only because we know what was under that turban. We don't have the rest of the story, so we don't know yet if there is something more to that dream. Indigo again: >Heck, we could >interpret that as that Harry is the heir of Slytherin or somesuch >great thing, or just compare it to Harry's journey so forth (we know >things will get darker as the series progresses)...or that he will be >a tragic hero- cue the green light at the end of the dream. Yes, we could, but where would it get us? I just thought about that dream and those characters and tried to see how it might help tie together some loose ends that have been problematic. If someone else wants to take that dream and come up with a different interpretation that will explain other parts of the story, great. That's just more to think about. Indigo yet again: >Reading >it again, I see Draco being there for the sheer prospect of >being...well, a Malfoy. Laughing while Potter struggles. Snape, well, >we still don't quite know his part just yet, other then that he hates >James, he was a death eater double agent who has apparently >turned 'good' guy...for all we know he could be laughing in the dream >because he's seeing the irony in Harry suspecting him in the future, >yet it being Quirrell's turban so tightly bound to his head....and oh >dear, I'm rambling. Yes, it could be all those things. But again, what would be the purpose? Don't we already know that Draco is ... well, a Malfoy? What would JKR's purpose be in including that part just to give us that information? Indigo: >The thing is that sometimes a dream is just a dream, not a memory or >prophecy or foreshadowing....perhaps Harry just ate some funny >treacle pudding at dinner the night before, eh? ;-D Yes, a dream could be just a dream, but somehow I don't see JKR putting a dream in the story just because Harry ate something funny and it's just a dream. Why THAT dream? I'm sure JKR could have made that dream anything she wanted it to be. Why THAT one? I'm perfectly willing to believe that my theory is full of holes and couldn't possibly be right, but I can't believe that JKR didn't mean something more in that dream than a foreshadowing of what's beneath Quirrel's turban. I think she's far too clever for that. I think she wants us to think that Harry's dream about Malfoy laughing and then turning into Snape is a typical dream born of anxiety or other feelings about people who bother us. Who among us hasn't had such a dream at some point or another? Then we find out about Quirrel and think, "Ah, that's what that dream is really about -- it's a foreshadowing of what's under Quirrel's turban. Then we forget all about it. Just what she wants us to do. Now, whether the dream means what I'm growing more and more to believe or whether it means something else, I definitely think it's more than the simple Quirrelmort foreshadowing. Carol From kaityf at jorsm.com Tue Nov 26 17:22:21 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:22:21 -0600 Subject: Lupin's Reactions (was Snape and the Potters) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021126110707.0383abf0@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47204 ClicketyKeys wrote: >However, I am still unconvinced that it /wasn't/ James. Lupin has >strong reactions *each* time Harry mentions having the vision - bottom >of p.187, middle of p. 239. This is before he says he heard James. I >think that Lupin is concerned for Harry's well-being. The question of whose voice Harry hears aside, I agree that Lupin has strong reactions each time Harry mentions hearing it. However, I don't think Lupin's reaction reflects only a concern for Harry. In the two quotations mentioned, I would say, yes, that's what it is. But not in the next one. page 187: "'When they get near me -- ' Harry stared at Lupin's desk, his throat tight. 'I can hear Voldemort murdering my mum.' Lupin made a sudden motion with his arm as though to grip Harry's shoulder, but thought better of it." page 239: "'It's getting worse,' Harry muttered, biting off the Frog's head. 'I could hear her louder that time -- and him -- Voldemort --' Lupin looked paler than usual." page 240-241: "'I heard my dad,' Harry mumbled. 'That's the first time I've ever heard him -- he tried to take on Voldemort himself, to give my mum time to run for it....' ... 'You heard James?' said Lupin in a strange voice." I think JKR used the word "strange" for a reason here. Why not "tense" or "strained" or "weary" or some such word? Any of which would have made more sense if what Lupin is feeling is only concern for Harry. Actually, now that I think more about it, I think the second instance (page 239) might indicate more than concern for Harry. But then maybe it's just that Harry said Voldemort's name and we know that makes wizards and witches a bit nervous. Or maybe that's just what JKR wants us to think. Hopefully, we'll learn more about Lupin in OoP. JKR did say Lupin was coming back in book 5, right? From jodel at aol.com Tue Nov 26 17:31:19 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:31:19 EST Subject: CoS Theories Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47205 GulPlum speculates; << I therefore propose that observation in support of a theory I've had for some time (and seen mentioned in various places by others as well), which is that Voldemort's ultimate downfall will not be his death, but the undoing of all the changes he underwent since leaving Hogwarts, and a return to his previous form as an adolescent. >> Well, regardless of the neatness of this from the terms of the use of the actor, (And this very same "unraveling of the past" scenareo is actually something that had occured to me as well -- great minds, and all that) in order to really *work*, Riddle would have to be "unmade" to some point much earlier than adolescence in order to undo the damage his choices have made in him. IMHO he would need to be taken all the way back to his beginnings and the memory of his entire previous experience eradicated before he could really benefit from this "second chance". In which case, Newborn!Riddle could be given a different name and raised by a good family, taught better values and become a valuable member of wizarding society. Shedding the old life as a snake sheds its skin. Assuming that he wasn't a born sociopath in the first place, that is. And I suspect that "some people are just born evil" isn't really the philosophy that Rowling is pushing. Incidently, if this scenareo is good enough for Riddle, it's good enough for other major offendors. (And cuts those bloody Dementors out of the loop altogether. "Second chances for everybody...") -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Tue Nov 26 17:31:25 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:31:25 EST Subject: Voices from the past (Re: Snape and the Potters) Message-ID: <157.1801be0f.2b1509ed@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47206 Carol comments; << I agree that this dream could be part prophetic, but I still have to wonder why the mention of Malfoy transforming into Snape, who laughs a high-pitched laugh. I never thought twice about it when I read it the first or even the second time, but now I just can't believe that JKR didn't have something up her sleeve with that one. >> Now I'm looking at that dream as an exercise in free-association with a memory twist and a piece of psychic awareness sneaking in. At this point in the book, Harry has next to no knowlege of the wizarding world -- but already he knows enough to be wary of Slytherin house. Hadrid, who he trusts, has already told him that it is the house of evil wizards, that the one who murdered his parents came from there. The most unpleasant boy since his cousin Dudley has identified himself as being sure to go there. (In Madame Malkin's.) The Sorting Hat threatened to send HIM there! (That upset Harry a lot!) And the nastiest, meanest-looking teacher at the Head Table, the one who is glaring at him past Quirrel's turban turns out to be *another* one of them! The dream is a reprise of all the Slytherins he knows about, plus the Sorting Hat trying to put him there. The memory twist provided the high, cold laughter and the burst of green light from the scene of his Voldemort's attack ("They say that You-Know-Who was one of them..."). And the psychic leap was to drag Quirrell's turban into the mix. The turban was just something odd that had caught his eye at the feast, that his dreaming mind pulled it in to take the Sorting Hat's place and urge him to transfer into Slytherin is something that no direct association can account for at that particular point in the story. Plus, he HAD probably just eaten the richest, most lavish dinner of his life... -JOdel From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Tue Nov 26 17:31:15 2002 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:31:15 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts snobbery (related: wizard schools) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021126111907.05746550@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47207 As the clock struck 04:26 PM 11/25/2002 +0000, Christopher Nuttall took pen in hand and wrote: >Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only time that we are told that hogwarts >is the only school is from Hagrid, who went there. I do not believe that Hagrid ever says Hogwarts is the only school. In fact, in PS, he says that it is the "finest school of witchcraft and wizardry in the world" (Bloomsbury, p. 47). This definitely implies the existence of other schools, but it could just as well be referring to foreign schools as to British ones, or both. It is simply not clear. Jim From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Nov 26 18:03:28 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:03:28 EST Subject: Harry's name (was: re: Malfoy names) Message-ID: <1ac.c9c9eb6.2b151170@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47208 > The discussion of names has got me wondering, what does Harry Potter mean? > Anyone have a book of names and their meanings--what does Harry mean? Does > Potter mean anything in any language? > > Christine > The meanings of the names of HP characters have been chewed over many times on this list, but as there isn't a Names FP yet, I'm not sure where to send you. Perhaps someone on the FAQ list has recently catalogued a relevant outbreak of name meaning-itis? As for Harry's name, JKR has stated that he is Harry because it's her favourite boy's name and that if she had had a son that is what he would have been called and Harry Potter would have had a different name. Potter is the name of a family she knew when she was a child. I choose to take this at face value, though not everyone does. If you really want, I could probably find the interview reference. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Nov 26 18:04:07 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:04:07 -0000 Subject: Why Defensive tactics work: was MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47209 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: > Pippin: > > one ought to admit that defeat is at least as much > > a possibility under Dishwasher as it is without it. GW: > No it is not. Under MD, we asume that, if Dumbledore sits down and does nothing, Voldemort wins for sure, while if he works hard and baits him, Dumbledore's side has at least a possibility of winning. There is no other theory apart from MD anyway, so there is no "without it" to > compare it to. People who are against MD have yet to come up with a theory that explains what is Dumbledore doing about Voldemort that does not include "sit and hope it all comes out for the best". > > > Pippin: > > Dumbledore is, after all, not "doing nothing" . He is training the next generation to resist evil, he is working tirelessly to > > encourage people to unite and to forgive their differences and he is doing everything in his power to alert people to the danger, including sending his spy out to discover what Voldemort plans to do next. GW > Yes, he is educating the next generation, true, but Voldemort is not a problem of the next generation: it is a problem that got out of hand of the previous one, and Dumbledore is too efficient to allow Voldemort's problem to carry on to the next generation. Especially since there might not be time for the next generation to grow anyway, or he might as well be the last powerful enough to stop Voldemort before he wins. > > Also, information about the enemy movements is useless if you don't do anything without it. Let me put it this way: Dumbledore discovers that > Voldemort is going to come back because there are any number of ways for him to recorporate. Now what? Sits and waits? Allows him to choose the battlefield and the weapons and hope that when the time comes he will be powerful enough? Or some other option, that takes advantage of Voldemort's position. This is where MD kicks in, of course: he plans the best possible way to win him, baits the trap, and attracts him. And everything that has happened in the books so far falls into place. > Voldemort and his devices have been thwarted in quite a number of ways. Let's recap: 1) a mother's love 2) A spell of protection involving Harry's blood relatives 3) Removing the stone from Gringotts 4) Two first year students armed only with a rudimentary levitation spell 5) A clumsy eleven year old girl (Hermione knocking into Quirrell) 6) Snape's constant vigilance (shadowing Harry all through Book One) 7) A mother's love (reprise) 8) Destroying the stone 9) An eleven year old girl with a silly crush (Ginny, stealing back the Diary before it could possess Harry) 10) A song bird and an old Hat 11) Priori incantatem There were numerous ways for Voldemort to come back, and there were numerous ways to defeat him. Even the recreation of the PS would not make Voldemort invulnerable. The stone could still be destroyed. That's canon. It is also canon that Albus Dumbledore does not believe his death would keep him from defending Harry or Hogwarts. "to have been loved so deeply, even though the one who loved us is gone, will give us some protection *forever*". Does anyone think that Albus doesn't deeply love Hogwarts or Harry? Nor does Dumbledore believe that Hogwarts would be defenseless without him ("Help will *always* be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it"). How many times have the dead come to Harry's aid? We have to get over the notion of death as the end of everything if we're going to understand how the Potterverse works. We also know what *didn't* work last time Voldemort was in power. Despite Crouch's aggressive anti-Dark Arts campaign, Voldemort grew stronger year by year. The books suggest a reasons why this happened. We can see a pattern in the list of defeats. Voldemort's strategic weakness is over-extension. He always bites off more than he can chew. This must be why Voldemort was winning against Crouch's aggressive anti-Dark Arts measures. Crouch's aggressive moves forced Voldemort to consolidate his victories, look before he leapt, etc. Left to his own devices, Voldemort *will* overreach. That's not meta-thinking, it's an analysis that's as available to Dumbledore as it is to the reader. Defensive tactics make sense in that situation. Provided Dumbledore's side is willing to make the necessary sacrifices, Voldemort's assault on the wizarding world is as doomed as Napoleon's march into Russia. What Dumbledore has to do is protect the wizarding world as best he can until Voldemort himself provides a weakness he can exploit. As for the role of spies, careful observation of the enemy is of course necessary in order to strengthen the defense and to reveal any tactical weaknesses which can be exploited once battle is joined. Pippin From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 18:12:11 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:12:11 -0000 Subject: MAGIC DISHWASHER is not a valid theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47210 Hi I have strong doubts about MD as a explanation for Dumbledore's behaviour. It would seen GROSSLY irresponsible for Dumbledore to a) Leave Harry Potter with the dursleys when he needs to learn as much magic as possible. Snape or Lupin could have made surrogate parents for him instead, Snape providing the angotiam. Secondly, there are flaws in whatever defences exist round privet drive, as Fred, George, dobby and Mr. Wesley all manage to break in at one point or another. b) Allow Fudge to remain as MFM when he is at the least incompetent and at worst a dark supporter. Even if he did not want the job himself, there are a few other people who could have taken is, such as barty crouch. c) Not to have made any serious attempt to track and catch Vapor!mort. If Peter can find him, so can Dumbledore. If the tracker needed the dark mark, snape has one to use. d) To have allowed Quraiil to have come to the school carrying Voldemort with him. e) To have allowed Voldemort's rebirth to re-threaten the WW once again. Whatever Dumbledore's motives, to allow hundreds of people, perticuly defenceless muggles, to be slaughtered is a terrible act. I suspect that Dumbledore is trying to cope with things as they appear, rather than acting to a great plan. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ronale7 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 18:30:49 2002 From: ronale7 at yahoo.com (ronale7) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:30:49 -0000 Subject: meaning of Harry's name Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47211 Christine asked about the meaning of Harry's name. I suggested an answer (repeated below) in post #40968. "Harry" is a nickname for the devil (Old Harry.) And "Potter" is often used as a name for the Creator. Thus the main character's name signifies that both good and evil can exist in one person, and war within him. --Ronale7 From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Tue Nov 26 19:05:34 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:05:34 +0100 (CET) Subject: [HPforGrownups] meaning of Harry's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021126190534.30434.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47212 ronale7 wrote: "Christine asked about the meaning of Harry's name. I suggested an answer (repeated below) in post #40968. "Harry" is a nickname for the devil (Old Harry.) And "Potter" is often used as a name for the Creator. Thus the main character's name signifies that both good and evil can exist in one person, and war within him." That's true. There's also a verb, "to harry", that means "to devastate", "to torment". So Harry Potter would mean (but of course that's only a supposition) "He Who Destroys and Creates at the Same Time". Iris Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue Nov 26 19:35:59 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:35:59 -0000 Subject: Fudge as Dumbledore's Man Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47213 Off list, talking about our logistical problems with MAGIC DISHWASHER, I mentioned to Abigail that I didn't like the idea of setting off the wizarding world apocalypse with Fudge in office. She developed the idea further by asking why Dumbledore didn't become Minister under MAGIC DISHWASHER, and that question has lead to some interesting discussion. However, in a non-MAGIC DISHWASHER world, the question also stands. Why? In the past, I have been very skeptical about Hagrid's summing up of the situation. First of all, it's Hagrid talking. "Wanted him for Minister for Magic" could easily go along with the "not a single witch or wizard" line? Whoever decides on the Minister for Magic (and it's definitely not by direct election, as even a Muggle prime-minister isn't directly elected), it seems strange to me that they'd be so unanimous in their choice. Look at it in light of Sirius's line in GoF that Crouch was popular and tipped to be the next Minister for Magic, and it gets even stranger. At one point was Dumbledore apparently offered the job (officially or non-officially?) Where was Crouch in all this? And who in their right mind would pick Fudge in the end? Was he a compromise candidate? And then, it clicked. Fudge is Dumbledore's man. Let's review the facts. We'll go back to 1981. We don't know who the Minister for Magic was then. Sirius's testimony in GoF gives an impression that Crouch was very much in charge, but I pointed out in Post 44636 (Despiadado Denethor et. al.) that there are many indications that Crouch's hands were actually tied on certain things. Do you think Lucius Malfoy could have got off on Imperius if Crouch had his complete way? Anyway, they weren't in a hurry to get a new Minister for Magic, in the months following Voldemort's downfall. I imagine both Fudge's and Crouch's stars were in the ascendant at this point, as they mopped up the post-Halloween 1981 mess in their different capacities. Crouch was tipped to be next Minister for Magic, as Sirius says. We've have a debate about this on the list, but the Longbottom affair could not have happened till sometime in 1982, some time passing between Hallow'een 1981 and that event, enough time to make people feel safe, for the Lestranges to talk their way out of Azkaban etc. The Longbottom affair ruined Crouch's political chances, but we don't know how long after that Fudge was made Minister for Magic. Later rather than sooner perhaps. I don't think there's anything to date it by. We also don't know when Crouch was removed from Magical Law Enforcement, though Sirius's language would almost suggest it was simultaneous with Fudge's appointment. To a Canadian ear, it sounded like a good old Cabinet Shuffle, but the two could have been unrelated. So, if after Crouch's downfall, the post of Minister for Magic becomes vacant, and the office is offered to Dumbledore. Dumbledore, for various reasons, doesn't want it. Peace has been restored to the wizarding world, and Dumbledore has a mission in educating the next generation, and preparing them for a future battle. But that's irresponsible, isn't it? Leaving Britain to the incompetencies of whoever is picked for office. Well, no, not if Dumbledore uses his influence to put his man in office, a man who will undertake the things Dumbledore believes should be done, who will take Dumbledore's advice. Cornelius Fudge, to be precise. There are signs throughout the books that this is so. Let me direct your attention to Fudge's first introduction in PS/SS. There Hagrid establishes that Fudge is very reliant on Dumbledore for advice, hailing him with owls every day, and it is apparently not unusual, for Dumbledore to be called down to the Ministry to consult with Fudge. In CoS, Fudge almost goes to pieces when Lucius Malfoy walks in and announces that Dumbledore's being fired. I think from his reaction it's quite clear that he can't override the decision, and that he has a good deal of confidence in Dumbledore. In PoA, he's quite thick with Dumbledore as well. He's up around Christmas time for dinner and he seems to have got directions from Dumbledore for Harry to get off the Knight Bus. I've always thought his "You know who alone and friendless is one thing but give him back his most devoted servant and I shudder to think how fast he will rise," sounded like he was mouthing something Dumbledore would say. Even at the end, he pays lip service to Dumbledore's criticism of his dementor buddies. In GoF, interestingly enough, he is meeting Narcissa Malfoy for the first time, suggesting that the friendly relationship between him and the Malfoys is not very old. He does a little bit of consulting with Dumbledore in GoF too, though by this point he isn't listening. Then, after Cedric is dead, Fudge breaks down entirely and pushes control of the situation onto Dumbledore. We get to the infamous Parting of the Ways (which is a suggestive title in itself), and the impression that Fudge was once one of Dumbledore's people gets stronger. "seeing him clearly for the first time" suggests that Dumbledore had not always estimated Fudge to be that way, that he hadn't always been that way. How long has he been nagging Fudge to get rid of the dementors? Had Fudge come into office with plans to do so? Now, on the F.I.E. people are going to come out of the closet, war-whooping and screaming, "Everything's explainable once you know Fudge is a Death Eater!" but, as I've said before, I don't buy it. The whole point of ending speech of choosing against what's easy is lost, since Fudge obviously represents what's easy. I'm aware that this reading of the text will call for a complete re-evaluation of Fudge. Cornelius Fudge, member of the Old Gang? Dumbledore's protege? Reformer in earnest? The implications are just beginning to settle in my mind. The 2D stereotype is being replaced by a real person, a good guy who brings about his own downfall. But I think I'm going to like my new 3D Cornelius Fudge. I must go and see if he works with my favourite memory charm theory. Maybe, I'll write him a redemption theory eventually. Maybe. Eileen From Audra1976 at aol.com Tue Nov 26 20:53:42 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:53:42 EST Subject: Harry's name (was: Malfoy names) Message-ID: <154.1808183c.2b153956@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47214 If JK Rowling did pick the name Harry, as she says, just because it's her favorite name, she certainly picked a good one, symbolically. The word "harry" has a few meanings. To harry someone is to goad them, to torment them. It's an annoyance. This is what Harry is to the Dursleys (in their eyes) from the beginning of PS/SS. Harry also has more powerful meanings: a) to ravage, and b) to raid. This is where the word "harrowing" comes from. Harry Potter definitely harries Voldemort in every sense of the word. Harry ravaged Voldemort, reduced him to virtually nothing, and ruined his plans (whatever was to be achieved from killing Harry). And Harry continues to annoy Voldemort by getting the better of him each time they meet. Potter goes along well with Harry. Potter, which is a British dialectical pronunciation of the word "pother," similarly means to irritate, vex, and perplex, as Harry does Voldemort. christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com writes: > Aside from the ovious, many english names come from jobs, for example > 'smith' comes from 'blacksmith', etc. I think HPs name was chosen to be as > ordinary as possible. Me: I agree that the name is deliberately common-sounding. I believe this was done so that readers can relate to Harry, and show that this poor boy that we meet in the beginning of PS/SS, who feels like he is so common, just Harry Potter...has greatness in him. ronale7 at yahoo.com writes: > "Harry" is a nickname for the devil (Old Harry.) And "Potter" is often used > as a name for the Creator. Thus the main character's name signifies that > both good and > evil can exist in one person, and war within him. Me: And the name "Old Harry" for the devil comes from the same definitions of "harry" that I just gave above. I never thought of Potter being a metaphor for God, but I really like this idea. It would certainly fit with the popular theory that Harry has both Gryffindor and Slytherin blood (though personally I don't believe that Slytherin was evil), or in a broader sense, just re-emphasize the theme that we have the potential for a lot of things inside us, but it's what we choose to do with it that is important. Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bkb042 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 20:55:31 2002 From: bkb042 at yahoo.com (Brian) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:55:31 -0000 Subject: Enough is enough (for now) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47215 I'm sure that, like myself, many of you out there are tired of wading through the MAGICDISHWASHER posts. GreyWolf has graciously consented to synopsize & consolidate the many previous posts into one (albeit lengthy) recap. Owing to his schedule, this recap probably wouldn't be availiable prior to the first of the year. For myself, I don't know enough about MD to really have firm beliefs either way. HOWEVER, judging by the recent TBAY posts regarding it's defensibility/canonical invulnerability, I would like to make an observation. If an idea can be neither supported nor refuted due to lack of information, then said idea IS NOT A THEORY! It is a hypothesis. Let's just agree to call it a working hypothesis until OotP comes out, or at least until Grey gets MD 2.0 up and running. Either way, everyone gets a break from these increasingly hostile posts. (Plus, my inbox won't get so full so fast) Thank you all for your attention bkb042 From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Nov 26 21:00:17 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:00:17 -0000 Subject: MAGIC DISHWASHER is not a valid theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47216 Christopher Nuttall wrote: > Hi > > I have strong doubts about MD as a explanation for Dumbledore's behaviour. It would seen GROSSLY irresponsible for Dumbledore to > > a) Leave Harry Potter with the dursleys when he needs to learn as > much magic as possible. If you force a child to learn everything he can to save the world, you destoy any chance to ever be a person. He might as well become paranoic and without any sense of morality. And then, you'd have another Voldemort in your hands (apart from the old one). There is a series of books (by A. C. Clarke, I think, but all my books are back at home and I can't even remember the name of the boy) that explores that possibility, and the outcome is not particularly nice. Dumbledore wouldn't do that to Harry. By the way, you are jumping to the conclusion that all Dumbledore needs in MD to win is a powerful Harry. Don't remember the theory ever stating that - were did you get that from? > Snape or Lupin could have made surrogate parents for him instead, > Snape providing the angotiam. I have searched my dictionaries for "angotiam". It doesn't come up in any of them. Please re-state your phrasing. And Lupin wouldn't fulfill the plan we do know about: raising Harry away from the WW. Apart from the inherent danger of leaving a 1 year-old in charge of someone who *eats* children one week out of every four. > Secondly, there are flaws in whatever defences exist round privet > drive, as Fred, George, dobby and Mr. Wesley all manage to break in > at one point or another. Again, I don't see how this ties with MD or how it makes it less of a theory. The protection was designed to stop Voldemort from making another attempt on Harry. Since we are unsure of what the protection is, there is no way to speak about it's efectivity. But so far it seems to have worked. The only proof about how good it is is in PoA: some have theorized that Sirius was just in the limits of the protection, unable to get closer to Harry. But, as I say, what has this got to do with MD? If anything, the fact that there is a protection points towards the fact that Dumbledore was indeed planned things way back after Voldemort's fall. > b) Allow Fudge to remain as MFM when he is at the least incompetent > and at worst a dark supporter. Even if he did not want the job > himself, there are a few other people who could have taken is, such > as barty crouch. Dumbledore is not God, and he certainly does not rule the WW. Once he refuses to be the Minister, there is little more he can do to influence the election, short of going into politics, which I think he wouldn't do. Crouch wasn't elected because he wasn't popular anymore (after his own son had turned out to be a DE). But that is besides the point: Dumbledore might suggest someone for the job, but he doesn't have the power you give him, not in a democratic country. > c) Not to have made any serious attempt to track and catch > Vapor!mort. If Peter can find him, so can Dumbledore. If the > tracker needed the dark mark, snape has one to use. And he would want to do that because...? You see, Dumbledore knows where Voldemort is ("My latest reports said that Lord Voldemort is hiding in a forest in Albania", CoS). Simply, there is nothing he can do about it. When Voldemort decides to come out of the forest, Dumbledore will goad him into using the potion, but until then Dumbledore won't go for him. What for? Vapourmort is immortal, so you gain nothing by attacking him in that state. Besides, there is this particular image I cannot shake: a wizard goes close to Voldemort and gets possesed. Like Quirrell did. And then Dumbledore not only looses another ally, but everything that ally knew is now told to Voldemort. No, I don't see an advantage in that. Also, I have answered that sort of argument many times before. You should try and read some of the most basic posts on MAGIC DISHWASHER: I grow very tired (and so must many other listees) by these constant repetitions. > d) To have allowed Quraiil to have come to the school carrying > Voldemort with him. Again, Dumbledore is not omniscient. An information war is not a solitary, it's not even a chess game. Dumbledore makes moves that hopes Voldemort won't be able to see, and Voldemort was doing exaclty the same. It is entirely possible that Dumbledore didn't know that "Quraiil" was possesed. The other possible explanation -the one I prefer- is the fact that Quirrelmort was no real danger: any attacks on Harry would be difficult since there are many teachers around to stop him, and the PS was protected in a way that Voldemort would never be able to brake: the mirror of erised trick. Thus, he was allowed to stay for a reason: that maybe Harry would be able to permanently destroy him if he where to face him and, if not, he'd at least get the chance to learn about his own powers with respect to Voldemort. > e) To have allowed Voldemort's rebirth to re-threaten the WW once > again. Oh, no, NOT AGAIN! We talked to death about this less than a week ago. I'm NOT going through the morality of the flametrap house. Go fight the archives for that. Besides, you've got it wrong: he doesn't allow Voldemort to resurrect: he goads him into doing so. AND using a method that will be his downfall. If Voldemort had used any other method (apart from being catastrophic for the WW), Dumbledore wouldn't have in a position to "allow" or "stop" him. MD!Dumbledore, as I say, is NOT an omnipotent, omniscient god. He's just a man that tries to put Voldemort into a position where he can be destroyed. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 21:23:46 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:23:46 -0000 Subject: Web Site for HP Name Meanings (WAS: Harry's name) In-Reply-To: <1ac.c9c9eb6.2b151170@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47217 Christine asked: > The discussion of names has got me wondering, what does Harry > Potter mean? Anyone have a book of names and their meanings--what > does Harry mean? Does Potter mean anything in any language? and Eloise (eloiseherisson) responded: > The meanings of the names of HP characters have been chewed over > many times on this list, but as there isn't a Names FP yet, I'm not > sure where to send you. Perhaps someone on the FAQ list has > recently catalogued a relevant outbreak of name meaning-itis? > > As for Harry's name, JKR has stated that he is Harry because it's > her favourite boy's name and that if she had had a son that is what > he would have been called and Harry Potter would have had a > different name. Potter is the name of a family she knew when she > was a child. I choose to take this at face value, though not > everyone does. Now me: I happen to agree with Eloise - there are a lot of names in the series that have significant hidden meanings, but I don't think Harry Potter's name is one of them (although there is a James Henry Trotter in Dahl's "James and the Giant Peach" whose parents die in a freak accident, is left to be raised by his two horrid aunts (one of whom is bony) and discovers magic...James Henry Trotter, Harry James Potter...). There's a great web site for HP name meanings if you're interested: http://www.theninemuses.net/hp/ ~Phyllis From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Nov 26 21:48:00 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:48:00 -0000 Subject: Gandalf and the Dishwasher/Enough is enough (for now) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47218 Russ (Fun_n_games) wrote: > What if Dumbldore doesn't know all that is going on, although he > knows more than others. Further, what if he chooses, for whatever > reason, to not be the lead actor in the battle with V, but to be the > powerful "counselor" who encourages the lesser mortals to take > responsibility into their own hands and carry on the fight? > > I liken this to Gandalf--the wizard who has the power to fight Sauron > himself, but because of moral codes and the codes of the Gods, must > only counsel the humans, encourage them to do what is right, give > them sufficient knowledge to wage the battle--but ultimately let > winning or losing the battle rest with those who will be left when > the battle is over. The basic stumblicng block I have with your theory is exactly that Gandalf parallelism. As you have mentioned, Gandalf had been forbidden to take a direct hand in the affairs of men due to his condition of semi-god which wasn't actually part of Middle Earth (or something along those lines; I am not particularly knowledgable in Middle Earth theory). What is stopping Dumbledore, then? There has been no mention of Higher powers forbidding Dumbledore to act, and we know he *has* participated in the past (i.e. Grindewald). Introducing a superior being at this point would be premature, unless you take hold of metathinking and reduce it to "I don't think JKR plans Dumbledore to participate in this war". At which point we would separate ways, because I don't think so (this is pretty obvious, if anyone has read my views on MD). But I don't thik you are going that way, so let's hear the answer to that question. While that happens, let me nitpick a little more. > Yes! I have cannon to support the theory. In PS, Dumbledore gives > Harry the tools and knowledge to fight V--he teaches him about the > mirror, he has Hagrid pick up the stone with Harry in tow, etc. I get > the feeling in PS that Dumbledore knows exactly what Harry is doing > to uncover the secret. He probably knows that Harry has mistakenly > pinned it on Snape. He's going to let the action go, however, and > let the "lesser humans" assume the responsibility for protecting the > stone. Ultimately, though, he lets Harry choose--do I go through the > trap door? Do I fight? It is Harry's choice to jump into the > battle, and ultimately it is Harry who must win, with a last minute > save by D pulling Quirellmort off of Harry. As Harry himself mentions at the end of PS, it is very possible that Dumbledore used that oportunity to further Harry's education in a practical way: facing Voldemort once again. Without going into Melody's variant of first shot at destroying Voldemort, Harry needed that oportunity to learn about Voldemort, which is not the sort of thing that can be taught to him "in theory". By facing him, he was facing his fears, learning about himself (his protection, his parents, etc.) and learning about the person who desperately wants to kill him. Which is always useful, in an information war. Note that this fits both theories: MD!Dumbledore was definetely playing the teacher all along, since he was hiding someplace nearby, ready to rescue Harry if things got out of hand (which, not surprisingly, they did). > This theory can be carried through the other books. In CoS, > Dumbledore calls Harry into his office and asks him if there is > anything Harry wants to tell him. When Harry says no, Dumbledore > lets him go. I get the feeling in this section that D is asking > Harry if he needs help. Once again though, he shows Harry the tools > he will need--the hat and Fawkes. Once again, Harry has to choose to > jump into battle by going down the opening. It is also ultimately > Harry who must win the fight, once again with a few more favors from > D in the form of Fawkes and the sword. In the end, Dumbledore tells > Harry the upshot of my theory--"It is our choices that make us who we > are." This hasn't been particularly analized by MD, to tell the truth - it is not something Dumbledore could've planned, since he didn't know about the diary, and it is still uncertain whether Voldemort himself planned it (if it wasn't, then it's not part of MD, really). So, leaving MD for a while, you have to realise that DUmbledore probably knows that only someone with the capabilities of a heir could enter the chamber (which would explain why no-one else had been able to find it). Since Dumbledore suspects that Riddle aka Voldemort was the last heir, and that Harry has part of his powers, he might have been using Harry to get someone into the chamber. But since he's not a cruel person, he also has something prepared to get him out of trouble in case he succeds in finding the place (i.e. the hat and the pheonix). Going back to MD for a moment, part of the addendums I vaguely recall (I need that unifying post as much as anyone else) is that Dumbledore always has something ready to help Harry is things go seriously wrong (himself in PS, Fawkes & SH in CoS, Snape in PoA's SS, Harry himself in PoA's Dementor Dementia, but none in GG - because he didn't see it coming [yes, I like using double letters for situations in the books. It keeps with JKR's style]). > Because of my theory, I would disagree with the defective potion > portion of magic dishwasher, because it presumes that D is the Master > Chess Player--moving pieces (in the form of Snape, Harry, and others) > in his fight with V, as opposed to merely being the counselor who > provides those who must live with the future with the tools necessary > to fight against the orchestrations of V. D doesn't necessarily know > which move V is going to make. Even D says in GoF that he didn't > know Crouch!Moody was the imposter until he took Harry away. How > could D be the Master Chess Player if he doesn't know that a spy is > sitting right next to him? No--many things come as a suprise to D. > He is not all knowing, but he finds the information and provides the > tools necessary to let "the future" make their own choices to carry > on the fight in response to what V does. As many others, you seem to forget that Dumbledore is not playing a chess game *at all* - not even in MAGIC DISHWASHER. Voldemort and Dumbledore are fighting an information war, which means that the one who gets to know more about the enemy while hiding his own moves will win. Just like Dumbledore was able to fool Voldemort into using the potion, Voldemort was able to slip one of his DEs into Dumbledore's plac without him noticing. Good spies are, by definition, difficult to catch (the bad ones are dead). Also, in relation with the free choices: Dumbledore does not make any of his allies choices, except indirectly. Let me explain that: you can read through all (pro-)MD posts and you'll never see a reference to Dumbledor forcing decisions on his allies. He does indeed make decisions for his enemies, but that's the core of any good plan: to get your enemy to do what *you* want, not what they would want. How does he make choices indirectly? By education, of course. Many of your "free choices" are based on you education: of morality, of logic, of options, etc. Now, don't misunderstand me: I believe that those are still free choices, but they have been tainted by the morality of those that have taught you, especially in school years (and even more at the onset of puberty, which is when you are given the heavy moral education). If you check some of the posts on MD morality, you will see that it is a basic position that Dumbledore hopes that Harry will make the right choices (if he had allowed Lupin and Black to kill Peter, that particular plan would've fallen around Dumbledor's ears, especially since Snape was no longer in charge). Brian wrote: > If an idea can be neither supported nor refuted due to lack of > information, then said idea IS NOT A THEORY! It is a hypothesis. > Let's just agree to call it a working hypothesis until OotP comes > out, or at least until Grey gets MD 2.0 up and running. Either way, > everyone gets a break from these increasingly hostile posts. (Plus, > my inbox won't get so full so fast) > > Thank you all for your attention > > bkb042 Hi, Brian, Hypothesis: 1. A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation. 2. Something taken to be true for the purpose of argument or investigation; an assumption. Theory: 1. Abstract reasoning; speculation: (example) a decision based on experience rather than theory. 2. A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: (example) staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime. 3. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture. As you can see from those definitions, they are basically the same thing: both theories and hypothesis are "assumptions, speculation, conjecture". Please notice definitions (2) of hypothesis and (3) of theory. Thus, MAGIC DISHWASHER, and evcerything else we want to draw from canon that is not canon itself is a theory OR a hypothesis. What it is not is a tautology, a theorem, a truth or Gospel (as Russ said). Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who would like to use this oportunity to thank all those people who wrote to me after that hellishly long post yesterday to tell me you liked it. You know who you are, and I'm very grateful for it - it was very hard (and long) to write, and it's nice to know someone actually listens. From gandharvika at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 21:48:50 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:48:50 +0000 Subject: (TBAY FILK) Potter Fans Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47219 The night wore on. The crowd started to thin. A few stragglers were left, hunched over their drinks, voices slurred. George, behind the bar, was counting the money from the drawer, a huge smile on his face. In the corner of the room, on a low stage, Gail sat at an old upright piano, looking out at the bar and polishing off the remaining peanuts in her dish. Beside her, Lilac stood, sipping her butterbeer and mused, "What an evening." "Man, everybody was here," Gail said, speaking with her mouth full. "They'll be talking about this one for a while," Lilac said. She was watching a grumbling busboy who was still wiping ketchup from the walls. "Like the Who's Who of TBay." Lilac glanced down at her watch, little planets moving around the edge. "It's half past Jupiter," she said, finishing off her drink, "You know we have one more set to play before we can call it a night." "I ain't playing any more show tunes," Gail said, flatly as she stuffed her sheet music for Cabaret and Les Miserables into her satchel. "Hey! How about that one number we've just been working on together?" "Oh yeah! Perfect." "Let's do it, "Lilac said, pulling a harmonica from her pocket as Gail swiveled around and placed her fingers upon the piano keys. ******************************************************* -Potter Fans- A FILK by Lilac and Gail B. to the tune of _Piano Man_ by Billy Joel...fooled ya! Thought I was going to say the Beatles, eh? Another evening here at George's bar And the pub is filled to the rim There's Elkins here sitting next to me On her face, a nostalgic grin She asks, "Do you remember this theory? It was written a long time ago It supports what I say, it was here on TBay And I'm sure it was one of my posts..." La la la, de de da La la, de de da da da Tell us your theories, you Potter fans Postulate all through the night Well, we're all in the mood for conspiracies But quick! Before we get book five Cindy of the Big Bang Destroyer Is discussing her latest theory She's starting to think, while sipping her drink As she sits beside Lucky_kari She says, "Snape, I believe, will be killing soon Which will only prove his loyalty Now everyone here is a-wondering Who is it going to be?" Oh La la la, de de da La la, de de da da da Now, Grey Wolf's a DISHWASHER theorist Who stays at the Safe House with Pip! And George the Snape Theory, he still has a query 'Bout how MAGIC DISHWASHER fits There's Dicey the Sirius Apologist Along with the Harry that's Stoned! And Pippin's with her PRESSURE COOKER And the SHIPPERS are talkin' hormones Tell us your theories, you Potter fans Postulate all through the night Well, we're all in the mood for conspiracies But quick! Before we get book five It's a pretty large crowd, for a TBay I've never seen it so crowed before 'Cause they've heard that for sure the big storm is closer So they know exactly what's in store And the sound of can(n)ons is tumultuous All across this fantasy land But Hurricane Jo is coming soon so Lets have our fun while we can Oh La la la, de de da La la, de de da da da Tell us your theories, you Potter fans Postulate all through the night Well, we're all in the mood for conspiricies But quick! Before we get book five -Gail B. who would like to give Lilac a big hug for helping her write this one :)> _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 21:50:19 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:50:19 -0000 Subject: Lupin to Return in OoP and the "Strange" Look (WAS: Lupin's Reactions) In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021126110707.0383abf0@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47220 ClicketyKeys wrote: > However, I am still unconvinced that it /wasn't/ James. Lupin has > strong reactions *each* time Harry mentions having the vision - > bottom of p.187, middle of p. 239. This is before he says he heard > James. I think that Lupin is concerned for Harry's well-being. Now me: I find it hard to believe that the voice is anyone other than James, primarily because Harry hears his father's voice in the graveyard in GoF and it doesn't seem to occur to him that this voice is different than the voice he heard when the dementors approached. I also think that if the voice *is* someone other than James, it would have to be someone Harry has never met, for otherwise he would presumably recognize who the speaker was. Carol Bainbridge wrote: > But then maybe it's just that Harry said Voldemort's name and we > know that makes wizards and witches a bit nervous. Now me: It doesn't make Lupin nervous - he uses Voldemort's name all the time without any fear or nervousness. Carol again: > Hopefully, we'll learn more about Lupin in OoP. JKR did say Lupin > was coming back in book 5, right? Me again: Yes - BBC Fall 2000 Interview: Q: "Now the future - Lupin comes back in Book Five..." JKR: "You see Lupin in Book Five. Do you like him? (Lizo: Yes, he's one of my favourites.) And me. I always looked forward to writing Book Three because of Professor Lupin. I love him. Yes you see a lot of old characters in Book Five. Yes." ~Phyllis a fellow Lupin-lover From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 22:27:02 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:27:02 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gandalf and the Dishwasher References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47221 First, I dispute the 'gandalf as god' argument, I believe that while he has a history, he is 'just' a powerful magian and is bound by no laws, save by whatever laws the white council has, and that he is free to interfere as an individual as he sees fit. He provides advice, accompanies both the treasure seekers in 'the hobbit' and the fellowship in 'FOTR', advises the council, acts as peacemaker, defends people, etc. There are many incidences of Gandalf being willing and able to act. Unlike Gandalf, who clearly is unable to defeat Sauron single handily, Dumbledore is Voldemort's equal (or so canon implies) and that is proved by Hogwarts never being seriously threatened by Voldemort. I don't think that either of them seriously planned to leave their 'hobbits' to their own devices until the main threat was gone, at which point it is time for them to acknowledge that they are adults now. Dumbledore will leave Hogwarts after Voldemort is destroyed. Gandalf shows himself willing to risk his own life to destroy the ring, and is only prevented from travelling to mount doom by circumstances (Thought: might Snape or Moody have a difference of opinion with Dumbledore that will lead to Harry being on his own at a crucial moment?). I see no reason to doubt that Gandalf would have been there if he had been able to, and he leads a divisionary action to help out as best as he can. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jack.anders at attbi.com Tue Nov 26 12:38:10 2002 From: jack.anders at attbi.com (jcainva01) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:38:10 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47222 Good theory...Snape tipped D'dore because he was trying to pay a debt he owed to James. In GoF, Voldie summons the Deatheaters, and Lucius is there. He certainly must notice that Snape isn't. Voldie states that of the ones that are missing, two are at Hogwarts: one is coward (Kakarov); one is lost forever and must die (Snape). If Snape was maintaining a front for Lucius, I wonder what Lucius is thinking now? I wonder if Snape will say he didn't respond when summoned because he needed to maintain a front for D'dore. Voldie was co-occupying Quirrel in SS, so that excuse won't fly. But Lucius doesn't know that, does he? He just knows that Voldie has condemned him. I wonder..... --Jack From mimian16 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 17:45:45 2002 From: mimian16 at yahoo.com (mimi) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:45:45 -0000 Subject: Typographical Error on Goblet of Fire Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47223 Hi! I'm new to this group. I would just like to share that the hardbound book of Goblet of Fire that I have has a typo error on it. On page 291, last line, Harry's letter to Sirius reads: "...I don't who put my name..." I assumed it should read "... I don't know who put my name..." Well, that's all I can share for now. Do any of you have the same error as well? mimi From elineryn at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 18:02:41 2002 From: elineryn at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:02:41 -0000 Subject: Lupin's Reactions (was Snape and the Potters) In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021126110707.0383abf0@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47224 > I think JKR used the word "strange" for a reason here. Why > not "tense" or "strained" or "weary" or some such word? Any of > which would have made more sense if what Lupin is feeling is only > concern for Harry. Actually, now that I think more about it, I > think the second instance (page 239) might > indicate more than concern for Harry. But then maybe it's just > that Harry said Voldemort's name and we know that makes wizards and > witches a bit nervous. Or maybe that's just what JKR wants us to > think. It's plausible, but I'm also inclined to believe that it's because it's told from Harry's perspecitve, and he doesn't yet know why Remus is concerned about all of that -- am I right in thinking that this takes place before he finds out that Lupin was a friend of his father's? It seems to me that Remus is experiencing his own emotions about James' death (I'm sure that we'll find out more about that), but obviously Harry wouldn't understand that -- he probably does think it's a reaction to his mention of Voldemort, but it's "strange" because it _would_ be unusual, if that was what he was actually reacting to. I don't have my copy at hand, but I think that memory serves correctly. > Hopefully, we'll learn more about Lupin in OoP. JKR did say Lupin > was coming back in book 5, right? Yes she did, thankfully. I'm quite looking forward to it. ~Laura From clicketykeys at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 20:24:06 2002 From: clicketykeys at yahoo.com (clicketykeys) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:24:06 -0000 Subject: Reforming Voldemort etc (was Re: CoS Theories) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47225 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: GulPlum: > > > >I therefore propose that observation in support of a theory I've > had for > > > >some time (and seen mentioned in various places by others as > well), which > > > >is that Voldemort's ultimate downfall will not be his death, but > the > > > >undoing of all the changes he underwent since leaving Hogwarts, > and a > > > >return to his previous form as an adolescent. The > ultimate "second > > > >chance", > > > >a recurring theme in the books! Indigo: > > > > > >Interesting thought, but I am not so sure I think that would be > considered > > >wise. Riddlemort's nature would have to change at the intrinsic > basic > > >level to not have him rise all over again, wouldn't it? And then > there's > > >the morality of the "would you kill Hitler" question coming back > into play. Gulplum: > > > > I'm well aware of that. Complicated morality is at the heart of > these > > books, and that kind of moral conundrum is just the kind of thing I > could > > see JKR attempting to tackle. Furthermore, whilst the importance > of "choice > > over abilities" has also been highlighted, JKR has also not shied > away from > > illustrating the fact that some "choices" are thrust upon us > (inheritance - > > both in terms of of material possessions and heritage - wealth, > social > > standing, etc). Riddle/Voldemort is a good example of this. Having > Riddle > > end up without any of those advantages would make an interesting > finale. Indigo: > > An interesting one, yes, but it would be, to my mind, out of > character for most of the cast. > > Harry did show mercy to Pettigrew, and regretted doing so when > Pettigrew escaped. > > Harry was willing to show no mercy to Black until he heard sufficient > evidence to trust him otherwise. > > Harry might be willing to show mercy to Voldemort, but considering > Harry has grown angrier about the death of his parents as he has > grown older, and angrier about Voldemort's continued attempts to kill > him -- I don't think Harry is going to remain merciful forever. Me: This is where I have to disagree. Due to the nature of the story - an epic war between "Good" and "Evil" - and magnified by the fact that these books are written /primarily/ for young people, I don't think Harry (or Dumbledore, for that matter) will kill anyone. Not willingly, anyway. I am tired and I have a splitting headache, so I'm not going to back up that claim just now - don't have the energy to do it justice, and I'm not going to settle for less. Indigo: > > I'm disinclined to think that a memory charm above and beyond the > level of Lockhart's facility for them, being placed on a young > Riddle/Voldemort is something anyone would be willing to trust to. > [As an example of some way to change Riddle's personality entirely.] > Not after all the death Voldemort has caused. > > I believe it would take a phenomenal amount of magic [beyond anything > we've seen to date] to change Voldemort's personality that much. I > also believe that the UK wizarding population would not stand for a > memory charm being put on him, or anything that appeared outwardly to > have reformed Voldemort to a non-Dark wizard. Again, due to the nature of the story, I don't think reform is an option. Redemption is - but not for Voldemort. There isn't anything he could do that would make up for what he's done already. -C.K. clicketykeys at yahoo.com From strayaluna at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 26 21:12:12 2002 From: strayaluna at bellsouth.net (Dominique Medal) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:12:12 -0600 Subject: future animagi? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47226 Chris (christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com) said: > Sirus is a dog, while miniva is a cat. Could Dumbledore be a > bumblebee, and Draco a dragon? I doubt that JK will introduce any more Animagi. We already have James Potter, Sirius Black, Peter Pettigrew, and Rita Skeeter as (illegal) Animagi, and the only Animagus registered with the Ministry who has been mentioned by name is Minerva McGonagall, although there are a few. We already have quite a number of Animagi hanging about, and it's not like Rowling to reuse something like that many times. Plus, I see too much significance placed in the person's name in that quote. Dumbledore may mean bumblebee, but I'd bet that Albus is much more likely to be a phoenix Animagus. Draco seems an unlikely Animagus, and he's probably named after the Greek tyrant Draco, from whose name we get the word draconian. "Peter Pettigrew" and "James Potter" do not indicate their Animagus forms. "Sirius Black" does bear quite a bit of significance, though, as does "Remus Lupin" (although Remus is not an Animagus). "Rita Skeeter," as has been mentioned before, indicates an insect form. I recall nothing about McGonagall's name that insinuates that she is a cat Animagus. I doubt that Dumbledore is an Animagus. If he were registered, Hermione would have mentioned it when she mentioned in PoA the number of Animagi registered with the Ministry. I also think the illegal Animagus has reached the end of its usefulness. Straya Luna niqui From strayaluna at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 26 21:39:27 2002 From: strayaluna at bellsouth.net (Dominique Medal) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:39:27 -0600 Subject: accidental magic Message-ID: <8A080AFF-0187-11D7-AAD1-000393065664@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 47227 Jazmyn (jazmyn at pacificpuma.com) wrote: > I kinda get the idea that a wizards powers don't really start > to kick in till they are at least 10-11 years old. Or they would not > dare let kids under 11 have wands! PS seems to imply that Harry has been performing accidental magic almost since he began attending Muggle school, and possibly before that. The Dursleys seem to treat him badly from the beginning, and Vernon seems to believe that mistreating Harry will keep him from performing any magic. He may have done his first accidental magic very young, most likely on his cousin, Dudley. Straya Luna niqui [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 22:22:13 2002 From: loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com (Loony Loopy) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:22:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin's Reactions In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021126110707.0383abf0@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: <20021126222213.95459.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47228 Carol Bainbridge wrote, in part: > The question of whose voice Harry hears aside, > I agree that Lupin has strong reactions each > time Harry mentions hearing it. However, I > don't think Lupin's reaction reflects only a > concern for Harry. In the two quotations > mentioned, I would say, yes, that's what it > is. But not in the next one. > > page 187: > "'When they get near me -- ' Harry stared at > Lupin's desk, his throat tight. 'I can hear > Voldemort murdering my mum.' Lupin made a > sudden motion with his arm as though to grip > Harry's shoulder, but thought better of it." > > page 239: > "'It's getting worse,' Harry muttered, biting > off the Frog's head. 'I could hear her > louder that time -- and him -- Voldemort --' > Lupin looked paler than usual." > > page 240-241: > "'I heard my dad,' Harry mumbled. 'That's the > first time I've ever heard him -- he tried to > take on Voldemort himself, to give my mum time > to run for it....' ... 'You heard James?' > said Lupin in a strange voice." > > I think JKR used the word "strange" for a > reason here. Why not "tense" or "strained" > or "weary" or some such word? Any of which > would have made more sense if what Lupin is > feeling is only concern for Harry. Actually, > now that I think more about it, I think the > second instance (page 239) might indicate > more than concern for Harry. But then > maybe it's just that Harry said Voldemort's > name and we know that makes wizards and witches > a bit nervous. Or maybe that's just what JKR > wants us to think. Yes, Lupin is speaking & acting out of more than just concern for Harry. He is also thinking about the murders of one of his best friends and his wife. At this point, Harry doesn't know that Lupin knew his dad. And from Harry's point of view, he wouldn't know what to make of the change in Lupin's voice. As far as we know, Lupin wasn't there the night of the murders, so he would be interested and pained to hear Harry's "eyewitness" account. Also, Lupin shouldn't be unnerved by the mention of Voldemort's name, because earlier Harry was surprised to hear Lupin say "Voldemort." Loony Loopy __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Nov 26 22:47:06 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:47:06 -0000 Subject: future animagi? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47229 Dominique Medal wrote: > I doubt that Dumbledore is an Animagus. If he were registered, > Hermione would have mentioned it when she mentioned in PoA the number > of Animagi registered with the Ministry. I also think the illegal > Animagus has reached the end of its usefulness. > > Straya Luna niqui Point of canon: Although I don't think Dumbledore is an animagus either, there is no reason for apearing in Hermione's list: she especifically mentions that "have only been 7 registered animagus in the last 100 years". Since Dumbledore is 150 years old, he could've become an animaus before that (when he was 30, for example). Also, in the theme of illegal animagi, JKR has stated in an interview (IIRC) that there will be no more illegal animagus introduced in the books. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue Nov 26 22:54:13 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:54:13 -0000 Subject: Gandalf and the Dishwasher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47230 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: > First, I dispute the 'gandalf as god' argument, I believe that while he has a history, he is 'just' a powerful magian and is bound by no laws, save by whatever laws the white council has, and that he is free >to >interfere as an individual as he sees fit. Have you read Tolkien's other works then, particularly the Silmarillion? Do. It's a challenging piece of work, but you only need to read the last little essay at the back, "Of the Rings of Power," I believe and you will discover what was going on with Gandalf. Gandalf is not a "god" but sent by the "gods," and he is not free to interfere as an individual as he sees fit. "Gandalf is an angel," says Tolkien in "Letters," trying to explain in our terms what Gandalf is. One of the Maiar in Tolkien's vocabulary. Therefore, I think the Gandalf-Dumbledore analogy is interesting. However, I do agree with Grey Wolf that Dumbledore isn't restrained by the Valar from action, so I don't think it can be successfully pursued. Eileen From Audra1976 at aol.com Tue Nov 26 23:01:47 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:01:47 EST Subject: MAGIC DISHWASHER is not a valid theory Message-ID: <16.28e1f629.2b15575b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47231 Christopher Nuttall wrote: > > Snape or Lupin could have made surrogate parents for him instead, > > Snape providing the angotiam. Grey Wolf wrote: > I have searched my dictionaries for "angotiam". It doesn't come up in > any of them. Please re-state your phrasing Me: I think he meant antagonism. Harry raised by Snape? What a story that would make. He'd make Vernon Dursley look like Ward Cleaver. But I don't think Dumbledore placed Harry with the Dursleys so he could be antagonized--that was just an unfortunate side effect. The point was to hide him in the muggle world, where none of the Death Eaters could get their hands on him and try to finish Voldemort's job. You can buy that whether you support MD or not. Christopher: > > c) Not to have made any serious attempt to track and catch > > Vapor!mort. If Peter can find him, so can Dumbledore. If the > > Me: Peter found Vapormort by communicating with the rats, not by using his Dark Mark, not to say Dumbledore couldn't have found him. Grey Wolf: > immortal, so you gain nothing by attacking him in that state. Me: Well he wasn't *immortal*. He had to force himself second by second to go on existing, according to him. I think the reason Dumbledore didn't go after him is because it would be almost impossible to catch Vapormort. He was just essence. You couldn't pin him down, and like Grey Wolf went on to say, if you sent somebody after him, he could possess them, and have a body again. Dumbledore had no choice but to leave him alone. Audra, still cracking up over the idea of Snape raising Harry... Snape: "I shall call him...(A 2-year-old Harry toddles out in little flowy black robes, his hair slicked down)... Mini-Snape." Bwahaha! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Tue Nov 26 23:49:09 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:49:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] meaning of Harry's name References: <20021126190534.30434.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004801c295a6$6b069b20$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47232 ronale7 wrote: "Christine asked about the meaning of Harry's name. I suggested an answer (repeated below) in post #40968. "Harry" is a nickname for the devil (Old Harry.) And "Potter" is often used as a name for the Creator. Thus the main character's name signifies that both good and evil can exist in one person, and war within him." That's true. There's also a verb, "to harry", that means "to devastate", "to torment". So Harry Potter would mean (but of course that's only a supposition) "He Who Destroys and Creates at the Same Time". Iris And then there are churches that ban the books because "Potter" may be a reference to any number of pagan "craft" or "earth" gods/goddesses. JKR said she named the main character "Harry" because that's her favourite male name. I doubt she had the above meanings in mind. Alina. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 13/11/2002 From Audra1976 at aol.com Wed Nov 27 00:06:26 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:06:26 EST Subject: Snape, Lucius, and missing DE's (was: Re: Snape and the Potters) Message-ID: <177.127a88f8.2b156682@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47233 In a message dated 26/11/2002 17:32:16 Eastern Standard Time, jack.anders at attbi.com writes: > I wonder if Snape will say he didn't respond when summoned because he > needed to maintain a front for D'dore. Voldie was co-occupying > Quirrel in SS, so that excuse won't fly. But Lucius doesn't know > that, does he? He just knows that Voldie has condemned him. I have read all the posts of excuses thst Snape could give on why he tried to stop Quirrel and why it looks like he's Dumbledore's buddy, and you're right, it's just not going to fly. Does Voldemort have "stupid" written on his forehead? Snape's not going to be able to go back to him. How could Snape play dumb and say he didn't know Quirrel was after the Stone for Voldemort after that little chat about where his loyalties lie, and that he doesn't want Snape for an enemy? He obviously knew what was up. Regarding the three missing DE's, I'm sorry, but I think it really *is* that simple. It's Barty Crouch, Karkaroff, and Snape. If he was actually referring to Bagman as one of them, as some people proposed, then why would he leave out any of the other three? Regarding Lucius Malfoy, if he didn't know that Snape left the DE's for certain, then he wouldn't be sure if Voldemort was referring to him when he said, "he will be killed, of course," but he's sure to find out. We're all talking about Snape possibly having to prove his loyalty to Voldemort by killing Karkaroff or someone. Lucius Malfoy needs to do something to show that he is still a faithful servant, but I haven't heard anyone suggest that he might be given the job of killing his son's favorite teacher. Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Wed Nov 27 00:58:59 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 00:58:59 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CoS Theories In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.20021126093739.00980af0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021126234051.0097b960@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 47234 I really don't have time for this post, but I shall attempt to be brief, before I fall back even further than I already am in catching up with my backlog of posts. This post might therefore appear to be brusque or even rude, but I want to make it clear that I mean no offence. I mean only to be short. I'm aware that this post starts of with a lot of stuff about movie casting which is technically off-topic for this list, but on-topic points related thereto will follow. I've also tried to address similar points made by Steve (bboy_mn) and Jodel without quoting their posts. At 16:00 26/11/02 +0000, Indigo wrote: > Canonical, shmanonical. Those three actors were JKR's own choice for those parts and it was partially her own insistence which convinced Coltrane at least to accept the role. The only clue we have as to Snape's age (and various other characters' by extension) is JKR's statement in an interview. There is no specific indication in the books. As for Hagrid, perhaps you have more detailed information, but I don't have a clue about (half-)giant metabolism and rate of aging. In any case, we were talking about the casting of child/adolescent roles. >All of the Hogwarts pupils are played > > by actors within a couple of years of their characters' ages (and > > believably so). On the face of it, there is absolutely no reason >for the production team to depart from that policy. > >No reason to your mind for the production team to depart from typical >and acceptable Hollywood casting convention. Sorry, but the HP production team quite clearly have *NOT* been applying typical Hollywood casting conventions. If they did, we'd have had Haley Joel Osment as Harry, as was widely touted within the industry a couple of years ago, and Lord knows what other casting monstrosities (not that I have anything against Osment as an actor). >Riddle was a Hogwart's >pupil at the time of 50 years ago. But the memory of Riddle was being >influenced by the at least 66-year-old mind of Voldemort -- which, as >I said [but was snipped] is a good reason for him to have looking >older than sixteen. I forgot to ask this last time around (I was indeed too generous with my trimming). Could you please provide ANY canonical basis for that statement? The diary was "written" when Riddle was 16. He did not know of his older self's fate until Ginny told him about it. In what way and by what mechanism was the older Voldemort to influence the diary or Diary!Riddle? >That said, though? It's also possible that he did look sixteen to >the casting people. I don't know where you're from, but I personally >have seen a goodly number of thirteen year olds who can pass for >eighteen, and sixteen year olds who can pass for over 21 without >getting carded. I went to school with several of the latter type, >actually. Oh, I'm sure the casting folk originally thought he looked younger - Christian Coulson certainly appeared younger in the publicity photo which was widely published at the time of his casting, and I'm sure that JKR gave her approval based on that photo. However, none of the non-book-reading people I've spoken to who have seen the film cottoned on that he was meant to be sixteen or thought he looked that way. Sure, I know several sixteen year-olds who look like they're much older (I wasn't one of them, but my brother was), but the whole plot resolution relies on his being visibly sixteen. The fact that the movie script left only one casual reference to it in the middle of Riddle's lengthy exposition scene did not help matters at all. In the quote from the book which I supplied previously, even 12 (almost 13) year-old Harry saw Riddle as clearly being not a day older than sixteen; the casting should have been utterly clear and unambiguous (going for a "young" sixteen rather than an "old" sixteen if necessary to make the point) and it was not. It is precisely that *all* the other parts were so exactingly cast and true to life that started me thinking about why the casting of such a pivotal role would be seemingly botched in this fashion. I therefore concluded that the casting of an adult actor must have been deliberate, as it was in the case of Myrtle - she has to return for GoF in 2-3 years' time, yet not look 2-3 years older. (I also believe that we'll see more of Myrtle in books to come, but that's a different subject.) >Harry did show mercy to Pettigrew, and regretted doing so when >Pettigrew escaped. > >Harry was willing to show no mercy to Black until he heard sufficient >evidence to trust him otherwise. > >Harry might be willing to show mercy to Voldemort, but considering >Harry has grown angrier about the death of his parents as he has >grown older, and angrier about Voldemort's continued attempts to kill >him -- I don't think Harry is going to remain merciful forever. Err... Where have I said or implied that Voldemort's "regression" would be in any way born of mercy on Harry's part? Harry will aim to destroy Lord Voldemort. He will not want to spare him. We've had several instances of quite bizarre and extraordinary magical effects happening in specific circumstances (Harry's imperviousness to AK aged 15 months and its creation of Vapourmort; Priori Incantantem, etc); Voldemort has now been reborn in a new(ish) body thanks, in part, to Harry's blood, so all bets are off as to what might happen if some as yet unknown to us incantantion is used in some unique circumstances by one or the other of them during a confrontation. The proliferation of phoenix imagery was one of the things which started me on the road to thinking about ending the series with a "regressed" and powerless Riddle a long time ago; the movie casting made me think about it some more and arrive at a conclusion as to what age Riddle would come out at the other side. >I'm disinclined to think that a memory charm above and beyond the >level of Lockhart's facility for them, being placed on a young >Riddle/Voldemort is something anyone would be willing to trust to. >[As an example of some way to change Riddle's personality entirely.] >Not after all the death Voldemort has caused. Where have I said anything about Memory Charms or changing Riddle's personality? We are currently without any basis whatsoever on which to prejudge the result of a unique confrontation in unique circumstances. My own speculation is that, just as the rebounded AK resulted in Voldemort's loss of physical form and reduction of his power, the final confrontation will result in his return to a Muggle younger self. His memory will not need changing. Not being aware of the trouble he has caused would be a major anti-climax. The fact that he is unable to cause any more is where the "justice" comes in. >The Ministry of Magic lost a number of aurors to Voldemort, to say >nothing of the UK wizarding population at large who lost friends and >loved ones. Voldemort's name became one that was not spoken, and >even the euphemisms were whispered with awe and fear. The Ministry >is unlikely to stand behind such an action to render Voldemort no >longer a threat. The Ministry (at present, at least) refuses to believe that Voldemort is back anyway. I wouldn't be in the slightest bit surprised if Fudge & Co *never* get around to acknowledging his return until, ironically, the end of the war when a powerless adolescent Riddle is all that's left of him. >Voldemort's followers are numerous and ready, willing, and able to >restore him to power. All the Death Eaters would have to be defeated >this time [as they were not when Voldemort was defeated before] and >placed in Azkaban, or worse, given the Kiss, to prevent them from >aiding him. What's that got to do with anything? Of course his followers will be around, and whatever confrontations await us in the remaining three books will have to overcome that obstacle anyway. At issue is the final confrontation (or rather, the results thereof), which unless JKR throws us entirely in a different direction, must be between Harry and Voldemort alone for the series to have closure. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Nov 26 22:39:39 2002 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:39:39 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47235 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jcainva01" wrote: > I wonder if Snape will say he didn't respond when summoned because he > needed to maintain a front for D'dore. Voldie was co-occupying > Quirrel in SS, so that excuse won't fly. But Lucius doesn't know > that, does he? He just knows that Voldie has condemned him. > > I thought that he could have made the excuse that he was at Hogwarts when the summons came, and according to Hermione, one CAN'T apparate or disapparate at Hogwarts. Wanda From strayaluna at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 26 22:43:17 2002 From: strayaluna at bellsouth.net (Dominique Medal) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:43:17 -0600 Subject: Voldemort's body Message-ID: <74DB3528-0190-11D7-AAD1-000393065664@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 47236 Indigo (indigo at indigosky.net) wrote: > Possibly, you have a point, since we already know in the books that > Voldemort gets his own body back. I don't think it was made clear > whether this new body was a ringer for Riddle or whether it looked > different based on the blood of the ally/blood of the enemy spell. I will assume that you were speaking about the graveyard part of GoF. Voldemort's face is described like this: "Whiter than a skull, with wide, livid scarlet eyes, and a nose that was as flat as a snake's, with slits for nostrils..." Voldemort quite obviously does not look like Riddle, who is described as being "much taller than Harry, but he, too, had jet-black hair." Then, in the Chamber, it reads "A tall, black-haired boy was leaning against the nearest pillar." Quite obviously, Voldemort does not return to the form of Tom Riddle. Straya Luna niqui From strayaluna at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 26 22:43:36 2002 From: strayaluna at bellsouth.net (Dominique Medal) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:43:36 -0600 Subject: other schools of magic in Britain Message-ID: <8043BA39-0190-11D7-AAD1-000393065664@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 47237 M Yilophan (sfeltus at insightbb.com) wrote: > I think it unlikely that there are other wizard schools like Hogwarts > in the UK because its students come from all over the British Isles > (i.e. Seamus). Good point. Seamus is Irish. Therefore, Ireland most likely does not have its own school of magic. > What I really want to know, however, is where do the kids go before > Hogwarts? It's true that they enter the school knowing little or no > magic, but it's obvious that they can all read and write. Do most > wizards home school or do they go to special wizard grade schools or > what? Most people believe that their parents teach them how to read and write, although spme, like the Malfoys, might hire tutors. Wizards who live in Muggle neighbourhoods might send their children to Muggle school until they are accepted at Hogwarts, especially if they are particularly interested in Muggles, or if only one parent is magical. A while ago, there was a discussion on why Molly Weasley seems not to work, and one of the ideas that people came up with is that she ran a daycare facility of sorts out of the Burrow while her children were at school. She could have taught the children reading and writing, and cared for them while their parents were at work, especially since in many wizarding families, both parents apparently work. Straya Luna niqui From dedanaan at shaw.ca Tue Nov 26 22:56:01 2002 From: dedanaan at shaw.ca (karen mcvicker) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:56:01 -0600 Subject: question about bubble head charm Message-ID: <004a01c2959e$fdb1e220$6401a8c0@dedanaan> No: HPFGUIDX 47238 Hi everyone, I'm usually a lurker who reads the posts, but doesn't have much to add to the conversation that hasn't already been contributed by other posters. Here's my question, and I'm sorry if this has been discussed before. I've been wondering about the bubble head charm Cedric used in the second task. The gillyweed that Harry used had a limit of about one hour. What about the bubble head charm? Would it last as long as the caster wants it to, or does it also have a limited time frame? Anyone have any thoughts or ideas on this? Thanks, Karen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From strayaluna at bellsouth.net Wed Nov 27 00:51:36 2002 From: strayaluna at bellsouth.net (Dominique Medal) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:51:36 -0600 Subject: MAGIC DISHWASHER is not a valid theory Message-ID: <61978F14-01A2-11D7-9C92-000393065664@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 47239 Chris (christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com) wrote: > I have strong doubts about MD as a explanation for Dumbledore's > behaviour. It would seen GROSSLY irresponsible for Dumbledore to > > a) Leave Harry Potter with the dursleys when he needs to learn as much > magic as possible. I have always assumed that Harry was sent to the Dursleys to keep him out of the wizarding world and reasonably safe, and so that the blood relative protection spells could be used. > Snape or Lupin could have made surrogate parents for him instead, > Snape providing the angotiam. Snape would not make a good parent at all. Plus, he may have been teaching at the time, so Dumbledore would not have given him that extra burden. Lupin is a werewolf, and therefore it would be a bad idea to send Harry to him. > Secondly, there are flaws in whatever defences exist round privet > drive, as Fred, George, dobby and Mr. Wesley all manage to break in at > one point or another. The various Weasleys who showed up at Privet Drive over the course of the books were not breaking in with intent to harm Harry. The spells have some way of deciding who is a threat and who isn't. If they didn't, no witch or wizard would be able to go into 4 Privet Drive, or, depending on how far the wards extend, hang out on Privet Drive at all. > b) Allow Fudge to remain as MFM when he is at the least incompetent > and at worst a dark supporter. Even if he did not want the job > himself, there are a few other people who could have taken is, such as > barty crouch. Crouch Sr. would not have been elected in the first place. He had fallen out of popularity after his son was discovered to be a Death Eater. Dumbledore would not have made a very good Minister of Magic, IMO, because he would try to institute huge reforms. The wizarding world wouldn't stand for it. Fudge seems quite dependent on Dumbledore, anyway, and the headmaster has allies lower down in the Ministry. > c) Not to have made any serious attempt to track and catch Vapor!mort. > If Peter can find him, so can Dumbledore. If the tracker needed the > dark mark, snape has one to use. Vapour!mort has been assumed to be immortal. Thus, it's a bad idea to attack him. > d) To have allowed Quraiil to have come to the school carrying > Voldemort with him. Dumbledore might not have known the Vapour!mort had possessed Quirrell. If he did, maybe he hoped to have somebody (probably Harry) defeat Quirrellmort for good. The Stone would have been safe, because Quirrellmort would not have been able to get past the Mirror of Erised and get the stone. Quirrellmort also would not have been able to attack anybody without being apprehended and dealt with. And the biggest reason Dumbledore had for allowing Quirrellmort into Hogwarts? Dumbledore can watch him. > e) To have allowed Voldemort's rebirth to re-threaten the WW once > again. Vapour!mort cannot be killed. Therefore, Voldemort needs to have a form to be defeated. The way he gave himself a new body is flawed in a multitude of ways. Voldemort is vulnerable now that he has a body. > Whatever Dumbledore's motives, to allow hundreds of people, perticuly > defenceless muggles, to be slaughtered is a terrible act. I suspect > that Dumbledore is trying to cope with things as they appear, rather > than acting to a great plan. I can see Dumbledore as thinking that people have to be sacrificed to save the majority. He has a plan, but as things come up, he tweaks the plan to fit the situation. Straya Luna niqui, who really hopes that the big post on MD is done soon, because she doesn't quite get the theory [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sgarfio at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 01:48:55 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:48:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's body In-Reply-To: <74DB3528-0190-11D7-AAD1-000393065664@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <20021127014855.80824.qmail@web21406.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47240 Dominique wrote: > Voldemort quite obviously does not look like Riddle, who is described > as being "much taller than Harry, but he, too, had jet-black hair." This has almost certainly been discussed before, but does anyone think there is any significance to the very direct comparison between Riddle and Harry here? - Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Wed Nov 27 01:55:19 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 01:55:19 -0000 Subject: Both Parents Work? Where's the Canon?(WASRe: other schools of magic in Britain) In-Reply-To: <8043BA39-0190-11D7-AAD1-000393065664@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47241 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dominique Medal wrote: >She could have taught the children reading and writing, and > cared for them while their parents were at work, especially since in > many wizarding families, both parents apparently work. Where's the canon? It might be true, but so far we haven't seen any couples who both work. We haven't seen many couples period, but that's how it is. Meanwhile, Molly Weasley stays at home. I think we don't have any canon at all here to go on. Eileen From sacst68+ at pitt.edu Wed Nov 27 01:32:07 2002 From: sacst68+ at pitt.edu (SHEABRIANNA A CHRISTILAW) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:32:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Dumbledore as an anamagi (was future anamagi?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47242 Dominique said: >I doubt that Dumbledore is an Animagus. If he were registered, Hermione >would have mentioned it when she mentioned in PoA the number of Animagi >registered with the Ministry. I also think the illegal Animagus has >reached the end of its usefulness. Hermione said that there have only been seven animagi this CENTURY, including McGonnagall. Since Dumbledore is 150, and thus over a century old, isn't it possible that Hermione missed it? Afterall, why would she bother looking up animagi from the last century? ~Shea, who is new but trying to learn! From alina at distantplace.net Wed Nov 27 02:07:44 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:07:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: accidental magic References: <8A080AFF-0187-11D7-AAD1-000393065664@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <009e01c295b9$c6f616a0$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47243 Jazmyn (jazmyn at pacificpuma.com) wrote: > I kinda get the idea that a wizards powers don't really start > to kick in till they are at least 10-11 years old. Or they would not > dare let kids under 11 have wands! You must've forgotten your GoF to get that idea. Remember the quidditch championship, where Harry and Ron and Hermione went to get water and saw a whole number of little children doing magic? Two girls on toy broomsticks, floating. A toddler making a slug bigger using his father's wand. What about the fact that we know for sure that every wizard-born student in Hogwarts (except Neville) flew a broomstick before coming to school? Not to mention, what about all the magic Harry did! He shrank an ugly sweater (jumper), he transported himself to a roof of a building, he grew his hair back and removed the glass from the zoo. Alina. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 13/11/2002 From indigo at indigosky.net Wed Nov 27 02:45:23 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 02:45:23 -0000 Subject: accidental magic In-Reply-To: <009e01c295b9$c6f616a0$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47244 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alina" wrote: > Jazmyn (jazmyn at p...) wrote: >What about > the fact that we know for sure that every wizard-born student in Hogwarts > (except Neville) flew a broomstick before coming to school? > Neville may not have flown a broomstick, but he has used magic before Hogwarts, too. He had a uncle who was constantly dangling him out of windows and shoving him off piers and suchlike. He was so pleased that the time he let go of Neville to go get pie, and Neville bounced, that he bought Neville Trevor to celebrate that Neville really is magical. --Indigo From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Nov 27 03:49:24 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:49:24 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape, Lucius, and missing DE's (was: Re: Snape and the Potters) References: <177.127a88f8.2b156682@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DE440C4.245F19EB@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47245 Audra1976 at aol.com wrote: > > > Regarding Lucius Malfoy, if he didn't know that Snape left the DE's > for > certain, then he wouldn't be sure if Voldemort was referring to him > when he > said, "he will be killed, of course," but he's sure to find out. > We're all > talking about Snape possibly having to prove his loyalty to Voldemort > by > killing Karkaroff or someone. Lucius Malfoy needs to do something to > show > that he is still a faithful servant, but I haven't heard anyone > suggest that > he might be given the job of killing his son's favorite teacher. > > Audra > Oooooo.. This raises an idea that Snape might be 'favoring' Draco and trying to be a 'father figure' to him, giving him more 'encouragement' then Lusius ever gave the boy. Meaning if Draco is indeed abused and bullied by his father as much as we think, then if Draco witnesses Lucius attacking Snape, whose side would he take? His favorite teacher? Or his father who treats him like garbage? Hmmmm... May be that Snape will try to help Draco not make the mistakes he made, favoring him cause he sees himself as a kid? Jazmyn From judyshapiro at directvinternet.com Wed Nov 27 04:03:28 2002 From: judyshapiro at directvinternet.com (Judy) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 04:03:28 -0000 Subject: Sociopathic Sirius? (and Paranoid Snape?) In-Reply-To: <001801c293ef$e9c8e840$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47246 Hey, the Sirius Apologists disagree with the Snapefans. Who would have expected that? ;-) Sirius, Snape, and Sociopathy On the topic of whether Sirius has traits of sociopathy, I said: > The DSM [Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the Amer. Psychiatric Assoc.] > definition for APD [antisocial personality disorder / sociopathy] > leaves out positive traits associated with > sociopathy, such as being charming, as well as fairly neutral ones > such as lack of introspection. And Marina replied: >> Well, far be it from me to deny that Sirius is charming. :-) Nor will I attempt to present him as the introspective type. But (and hopefully more knowledgeable people will correct me if I'm full of it), I think that the reason these traits get left out of the diagnostic criteria is not that they aren't harmful, but that they aren't reliably indicative. Yes, a lot of sociopathic people are charming and non-introspective, but so are a lot of non-sociopathic people, so you can't really draw conclusions based on that.<< I'm saying that being charming should be part of the diagnostic criteria, but only in interaction with the other criteria. In other words, the constellation of being charming *and* fearless and impulsive indicates sociopathy, but being charming *without* those other things is not a sign of sociopathy at all. The problem with the DSM (well, one of many, actually) is that its approach to diagnosis is sort of like those quizes that women's magazines have. (I can just see it now, on the cover of Glamour Magazine: "Are you a sociopath? Take our quiz and find out!") This approach says, "If you're fearless, give yourself a point. If you're charming, give yourself a point." What I'm saying is, "If you're charming and fearless, give yourself two points. If you're fearless but not charming, give yourself zero points. If you're charming but not fearless, give yourself zero points." So, the fact that many non-sociopaths are also charming isn't a problem with including "charm" as part of the diagnostic criteria, because being charming is only diagnostic when found with a bunch of other factors. (Of course, sociopaths are only charming when they *want* to be. "I've always been able to charm the people I needed," says Tom Riddle.) Penny said: >we have absolutely zero proof that any of the characters are or are not introspective. The books are written from Harry's POV, and while I think I would say that Harry is a very introspective person, find it hard to make that argument about any of the other characters given the POV issues.< It's true that we can't read the characters' mind, but one can tell a lot about introspection level by looking at behavior. Dumbledore, for example, is highly introspective. He gets lost in the Pensieve, hardly remembering that Harry is there, and sits staring at the ceiling in the Great Hall, deep in contemplation. I'd say that Snape is far higher than Sirius in introspection. But, I don't mean that he necessarily has more insights into his own behavior. Rather, I mean that he is focused on his own thoughts instead of the external environment. The original psychological term for this is "introversion", but in common usage, "introvert" has come to mean shy -- and Snape isn't shy. But, he is definitely focused on his own thoughts; his idea of a good time is contemplating the shimmering fumes of his simmering cauldrons. Sirius, on the other hand, is much more interested in external stimuli. He wants action. He likes socializing and playing jokes. He's not the type who wants to spend his time sitting by himself, lost in thought. The psychological term for this is extroversion. ("Extroversion" is not a synonum for being outgoing, although most extroverts do find it boring to be alone. By the way, for the Sirius fans out there, solitary confinement in Azkaban must have been especially hard for an extrovert like Sirius, and he's making a big sacrifice in hanging around by himself in a cave, watching over Harry.) So, what does this have to do with sociopathy? Well, one theory of sociopathy (the one to which I subscribe) is that it's caused by a combination of two factors: low sympathetic nervous system reactivity, and low central nervous system reactivity. Sympathetic nervous system reactivity means that one doesn't release adrenalin easily, and is associated with being fearless. I would say that both Sirius and Snape have low sympathetic nervous system reactivity, as they are both rather fearless. Central nervous system reactivity is basically another name for the introversion - extroversion dimension. Introverts have high central nervous system reactivity; their brains generate a lot of activity even without external stimuli, so they tend to get wrapped up in their own thoughts. Extroverts' brains don't generate much activity on their own, so they seek out a lot of external stimuli. (By the way, central nervous system reactivity is entirely different from intelligence level; extroverts can be highly intelligent.) Sociopaths have low central nervous system reactivity; they can't be introverts. They don't brood. Snape broods -- you look up "brooding" in the dictionary, and there's his picture. So, whatever else Snape is, he's not a sociopath. Instead of saying that Sirius is relatively high in sociopathy, I could say that he's low in sympathetic nervous system reactivity and low in central nervous system reactivity. I could even say that he's very fearless and highly extroverted -- does that sound better? ;-) In terms of whether Sirius is *nice*, I'm one of the people who suspects he was a something of a bully in his school years. However, I don't suscribe to GleefulSadist!Sirius -- I don't think he was ever like Macnair or Lucius. Sirius and PTSD As Penny mentioned, I don't subscribe to the theory that Sirius' behavior in PoA can be explained by PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.) Symptoms of PTSD usually don't appear until *after* the trauma is over. During the crisis, the person's mind is focused on survival, and the person often thinks, "If only I could get out of this situation, things would be all right." It's not until after the crisis has passed that the full impact hits and the person realizes that life will never be the same. In PoA, Sirius is on the run, everyone thinks he's a murderer, he's half-starved, the dementors are on his trail. He's still in crisis mode; it's too early for PTSD. If he was going to show signs of PTSD, I'd expect them to show up in GoF. I don't believe that a few months in the tropics could undo the damage caused by 12 years of hell. Saying that Sirius has recovered by GoF implies that people can recover quickly from years of trauma, and I don't think that's true. Portraying Sirius as recovering so quickly bothers me because people who've been traumatized in real life are often told to "just get over it" and are pressured to recover quickly, even if that just isn't possible. Here's a question that I've been meaning to ask Sirius' (many) fans. Did you like him in PoA? Or, did you not start to like him until you read GoF? I'm wondering if people like him *because* of his actions in PoA, or *despite* his actions in PoA. By the way, I agree with a lot of the "Sirius Apologetics" in message #47051. I especially agree that Sirius didn't deserve to be sent to Azkaban. (Yeah, too bad Snape doesn't realize that.) I can't buy that Sirius feels lots of remorse over the Prank, though. He certainly doesn't show it in the Shrieking Shack. Snape and Paranoia Penny said: >[Snape] sure looks paranoid from where I'm sitting. < I'm quite willing to admit that Snape has many flaws.("Vengeful" would be at the top of the list.) I hope it's obvious that I'm joking when I say things like "Of course, we all love Snape, right?" In fact, I was surprised (and relieved!) to find so many fellow Snapefans when I joined HPfGU. However, I just can't see paranoia as one of Snape's flaws. If anything, Snape as a teenager was *too* trusting. I mean really, what sort of self-respecting paranoiac would go rushing off to the Tunnel just because an enemy told him how to get in? (And it wasn't that he was stupid; even Sirius gives him credit for cleverness.) As for Snape as an adult, he does tend towards suspicion, but that seems quite understandable. A careless double-agent is a dead double-agent. Snape and Remorse Penny said: >I would argue that Snape actually very definitely lacks remorse for hurting others -- or at least he certainly doesn't allow any remorse he might be feeling to stop him from abusing his position of power and knowingly hurting quite a number of the students under his purported tutelage. Yeah, I have some strong feelings about Snape's use of his teacher role, Snape-fans. :--) < I see Snape as consumed by remorse; the clearest evidence is the scene when Fake!Moody says talks about "stains that won't come off." However, even without this scene, Snape pretty much *has* to be full of remorse. What, except remorse for what he had done, would lead him to risk everything and leave the DEs when Voldemort was at the height of his powers? And how could Dumbledore possibly trust a former DE who wasn't remorseful? As for Snape's treatment of students, I certainly don't approve of a teacher acting that way. A number of explanations for his behavior have been proposed, including the need to impress the Slytherins of his opposition to aurors, muggleborns, and Harry. Even if we can't explain away his hostile behavior, though, I still don't think that means he is unable to feel remorse. I think his hostile behavior in the classroom shows he lacks *empathy*. He doesn't know what it would be like to be a teenage girl teased about her teeth. He doesn't know what it would be like to be bumbling at potions. Snape practically comes right out and says he's low in empathy: "Don't ask me to fathom how a werewolf's mind works!" I'm not convinced he realizes that his behavior hurts his students. And, yes, being low in empathy can be a sign of sociopathy, but only in combination with other factors that Snape doesn't have. There can be many reasons for lacking empathy. In Snape's case, it might be his high level of anger, or it could be that lack of social interaction has limited his knowledge of other people's experiences. I think LowEmpathy!Snape fits well with my theory about why he left the DEs. (My theory is that he was in love with Lily, and left when the Potters were threatened.) Until someone he cared about was threatened, he didn't fully realize how evil the DEs were, because he didn't empathize with their other victims. Voldewar 1 - Between Slytherin and Gryffindor Houses? I said: >> The Prank occured during Voldewar I, a war that was largely between Slytherin House and Gryffindor House<< And Penny asked: > Curious: where do you get the perception that Voldemort I was confined to Hogwarts and to a Gryffindor/Slytherin rivalry in particular? My perception has always been that Voldy I was a terrible time for the entire wizarding world, and included many muggle murders as well. < Well, I think many people outside these two Houses were killed, including many muggles. However, I see Gryffindor and Slytherin Houses as the source of most of the people fighting; the other deaths I see as being mainly "civilians." I probably don't need to explain why I see Voldemort's side as being pretty much synonymous with Slytherin House. As for the "Light" side being primarily from Gryffindor House, Dumbledore was from Gryffindor House, and whenever house affiliation is mentioned for someone who was openly on Dumbledore's side, that house was Gryffindor (Minerva, Hagrid, the Potters, Lupin, Black.) Gryffindor's sword and hat help Harry against Tom Riddle. My theory is that Harry is Gryffindor's heir, and that Fawkes was Gryffindor's pet. (Fawkes has Gryffindor's colors.) And Finally -- Snape compared with Sirius A number of people have mentioned that Sirius and Snape actually have a lot in common. I'd say they both share a certain lack of empathy and quickness to anger, as well both being relatively fearless. They certainly differ, though, in that Snape is an introvert and Sirius is an extrovert. -- Judy From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Nov 27 05:15:57 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:15:57 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: accidental magic References: <8A080AFF-0187-11D7-AAD1-000393065664@bellsouth.net> <009e01c295b9$c6f616a0$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <3DE4550D.56FA4900@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47247 Alina wrote: > > Jazmyn (jazmyn at pacificpuma.com) wrote: > > I kinda get the idea that a wizards powers don't really start > > to kick in till they are at least 10-11 years old. Or they would > not > > dare let kids under 11 have wands! > > You must've forgotten your GoF to get that idea. Remember the > quidditch > championship, where Harry and Ron and Hermione went to get water and > saw a > whole number of little children doing magic? Two girls on toy > broomsticks, > floating. A toddler making a slug bigger using his father's wand. What > about > the fact that we know for sure that every wizard-born student in > Hogwarts > (except Neville) flew a broomstick before coming to school? > The brooms are magical themselves and its likely it takes almost no magical ability to fly one. How well one flies one depends more on balance and a certain amount of natural skill, much like riding a horse, then anything. I'd bet that a squib or a muggle could fly a broom if all it takes to get one off the ground is saying 'UP!' and not even concentrating on making the broom rise... In fact, Quiddich Through the Ages supports the idea that the brooms do the flying, the rider just controls them. Wands focus the powers and a wand in an untrained child's hands at too early an age would be dangerous. The kid with the slug was NOT supposed to be playing with his dad's wand anymore then a small child would be allowed to play with a handgun... Surprised the mother was not a lot more upset then she was. The child could have been enlarging one of his playmates rather then that slug! > Not to mention, what about all the magic Harry did! He shrank an ugly > sweater (jumper), he transported himself to a roof of a building, he > grew > his hair back and removed the glass from the zoo. > > Alina. > Note that the 'accidental magic' happens during stress and is not controlled. Takes a wand to control it properly.. You simply don't see kids under 11 given THEIR OWN wands.. Young Kevin and his daddy's wand is not an example of children being allowed wands because he was not supposed to be playing with it. Frankly 'mom' should have been as frantic as if she walked in on her kid playing with a .357 magnum, in my opinion.. Jazmyn From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 05:27:10 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 05:27:10 -0000 Subject: The King of the Dark Lords (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47248 The King of the Dark Lords To the tune of The King of Broadway from Mel Brooks' The Producers Dedicated to Lilac and Gail Hear an excerpt at: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005AY6I/qid=1038373440/sr=2- 1/ref=sr_2_1/104-4997678-7765540 Find the original text here (scroll down a bit, it's the second song) http://libretto.musicals.ru/text.php?textid=277&language=1 THE SCENE: The Albanian wilderness in the late 80s. The restless spirit of LORD VOLDEMORT senses that it is about to disintegrate for good if it cannot immediately incarnate itself within a biological organism. As luck would have it, only one such creature is within immediate reach ? that creature being - oh the indignity! the disgrace! ? a fluffy baby bunny rabbit. Overcome with horror and humiliation that he must become (albeit temporarily) so cute and cuddly, VOLDEMORT pours out his sorrow to a CHORUS OF DUNG BEETLES, CRAYFISH, EARTHWORMS AND MILLIPEDES who gather around him VOLDEMORT: I used to be the king The king of the Dark Lords Like Sauron with The Ring, The Chairman of the Board I used only the darkest arts I struck fear into every heart More frightening than a boggart I tore them all apart with Syth'rin's sword CHORUS You oppressed them, Thousand victims You oppressed them, Voldy Lord Then the fates cried, "Let's evict him!" Now you face a slight discord VOLDEMORT: I used to be the Lord The Lord of Darkness, Inc. My program went forward For I knew how to slink My curses caused the deepest pain My forces ev'ry week made gains I made sure Abel met with Cain Quite ready to enchain the weakest link CHORUS You repressed them, Thousand wizards You repressed them, Voldemort But the voice of justice was heard Now it seems that you're done for! VOLDEMORT: There was a time When I was really good (but evil) There was a time When I had power There was a time When ev'ry neighborhood I touched Would shrink and cower CHORUS There was a time He waved the cruelest wand His spells would never fail VOLDEMORT: Now I have two floppy ears And a white fluffy tail CHORUS Poor Voldy, he's a bunny VOLDEMORT: Floppy ears CHORUS Poor Voldy, must inhabit VOLDEMORT: Fluffy tail CHORUS Poor Voldy, (though it's funny) VOLDEMORT: White fluffy tail CHORUS Poor Voldemort, a rabbit VOLDEMORT (spoken): A fugitive in exile! How dare they treat me in this manner! How quickly they forget. I am Lord Voldemort! The first Dark Lord ever to offer guided tours of the Chamber of Secrets! CHORUS (music): Once he was the King! VOLDEMORT (spoken): You've heard of the twelve magic uses for dragon blood? You're looking at the wizard who discovered the twelve magic uses for unicorn blood ? all of them Unforgivable! CHORUS (music): King of the Dark Lords! VOLDEMORT (spoken): I spent my entire life pursuing inequality, injustice, and inopportunity. I was a prot?g? of the great Dark Lord Grindelwald .. (CHORUS gasps in awe) Yes. He taught me everything I know. I'll never forget, he turned to me on his deathbed, and suddenly I heard "Ssssssssssssssssssssssss ." MILLIPEDE (spoken): Was that Parseltongue? VOLDEMORT (spoken): No, his Rolls had a leaky tire. But in my heart, I knew what he wanted to say. He would have said, "When you're down and out, and everybody thinks you're finished, that's the time to stand up on your own four ? I mean, two feet and shout, `Who the hell do you have to Crucio to get a break in this town?'" CHORUS (spoken) Yay! [VOLDEMORT THE BUNNY RABBIT leads the CHORUS in an energetic Central European-style dance (Two-three-kick-turn! Turn-turn-kick-turn!)] VOLDEMORT (music) I used to be the king The king of the Dark Lords Again I will be king My powers all restored I'll say it all in verse again I'm growing more perverse again My fortunes I'll reverse again In evil I'll immerse again With serpents I'll converse again My DEs will coerce again Disasters I'll rehearse again My enemies disperse again Toward Potter act adverse again I'll cast my fiendish curse again I'll fill up every hearse again I'll make the whole world worse again Lord Voldemort will once more soar Lord Voldemort will score once more! Lord Voldemort will go to war again! CHORUS He'll cast his fiendish curse again He'll fill up every hearse again He'll make the whole world worse again VOLDEMORT & CHORUS I'll/He'll go to war again, hey! - CMC (Yay! for Rhymezone, without which writing this filk would have been incredibly difficult) http://www.rhymezone.com HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm FRANZ LIEBKIND: Heil You-Know-Who! - Mel Brooks, The Producers From abigailnus at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 05:45:58 2002 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 05:45:58 -0000 Subject: On the nature of theories/MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47249 Note: Once again Internet connection issues have delayed this post by several hours (I *must* get a new ISP) and I see a few new posts on the subject. So, once again, I apologise if I seem behind the discussion. Amanda has suggested that the TBAY environment is blurring the lines between theorist and theory, and contributing to ill-feeling in this discussion. I also don't really feel like writing a TBAY post right now. I've therefore decided to respond to Grey Wolf off-TBAY. Grey Wolf divided the discussion going on between myself, Melody, Pippin, Pip!Squeak and, on one memorable occasion, Cindy, into two distinct subjects which I am allowing myself to paraphrase as: 1. The nature of theories in general and of MAGIC DISHWASHER in particular 2. My canon objections to MD I will try to address each subject in turn. The Nature of Theories -------------------------------- Grey Wolf offered an interesting scientific definition of what a theory is, and said: >all theories are true until proven guilty in science (and I use the s cientific method approach to theories in both real life and HP4GUs). Two opposing theories can be true at the same time. If one proves more popular than the other, it is adopted as the official one, but that doesn't mean that it is right (and more importantly, it doesn't mean that the other is wrong). Many theories coexist until better fit enhances one to preferred status, generally destroying the other one, but that's a property of all theories, not just MD.> I'm a little uncomfortable with using the rules governing scientific theories to discuss literary theories. A scientific theory is the result of empirically observing and recording facts and formulating a hypothesis to explain them. So far that does describe the theories in HPfGU - we observe empirical facts - canon - and formulate hypotheses to explain them. These hypotheses have to be borne out by future measurements - new books - and if those new facts contradict them then new hypotheses are formulated to replace the old ones. So far I agree with Grey Wolf, but then he says: >Abigail: > So you see, I can't accept that MAGIC > DISHWASHER will remain 'just a theory' even after book 7 ends - > it should either be proven or abandoned." >Very wrong indeed! After book seven is when things will get most interesting: if they haven't been disproven by then, all theories will remain theories for ever. You see, there are three things that could happen to a theory at the end of book seven: 1) it is disproven, in which case it disappears 2) it is not confirmed by the books, in which case it *will remain a perfectly valid theory until the end of time* and 3) it is confirmed by the books.> I don't think that's quite accurate. Once the series is complete, all the "scientific" theories based on canon facts becomes literary theories - in other words, interpretations of the text. And as we all know it is impossible to "wrongly" interpret a text - most literary scholars don't even think much of authorial intent once the work has been handed to the readers. In other words, if MD is never addressed by the books and I go to see JKR and ask her whether she had any MD-like thoughts in the back of her mind when she wrote the text and she gives me a strange look and tells me that I'm crazy, that *still* won't invalidate MAGIC DISHWASHER as an interpretation of the text. However, it is also impossible for a literary interpretation to be right - once the work is complete it all becomes a matter of personal preference. So if MD is to be proven or disproven, it has to happen by the end of book 7. Otherwise it will always be a valid *interpretation*, but as a theory it won't be anything. What seems to me to be happening is that MD supporters are already treating their theory as an interpretation - it's something that they believe is happening in the background, and they don't require canon validation to believe that it is true. So good for them, but the rest of us are treating MD as if it were still a theory - something that has to be addressed by canon in order to be true. Hence this argument. Personally, I feel that treating MD as if it were merely an interpretation and hence completely impossible to disprove is no fun at all. Part of all scientific speculation is constantly testing your theory - subjecting it to the most rigorous analysis, doing your best to find way to disprove it. I think that's what HPfGU is about - we take each other's wild notions for test drives and see how well they take those tricky curves and last-second stops. MAGIC DISHWASHER seems to have taken itself out of the game, which is a pity. Canon Objections to MAGIC DISHWASHER ------------------------------------------------------------ >Abigail: > My problem is, what was his original plan [for the SS]? > MAGIC DISHWASHER talks a lot about Plan B, and even C and D > eventually, but what about Plan A? What was Dumbledore's > original game plan before Sirius went and ruined everything? I > said that at this point, no such plan emerges from MD, and as > result the theory looks more like shoving the past into a > convenient mold. >Plan A was: get a Voldemort a follower with life-debt to Harry. Sirius did not went in and ruined anything; he was as good for the plan as Peter, and probably Dumbledore was originally planning to use Sirius anyway, since he might not have known Peter was there already.> Which suggests that Dumbledore was going to orchestrate Sirius's escape - how? How could he guess that Sirius would still be loyal to Voldemort when none of Voldy's most loyal supporters had tried to find him in the intervening years? Even Peter didn't attempt it until he had no choice. How could Dumbledore had been certain that Sirius would be sane enough to carry out his part of the plan? He didn't know that Sirius was innocent and he didn't know that he was an Animagus (and if he did know that last part then he endangered his own plan by allowing Sirius a means of getting into Hogwarts undetected by Dementors). Finally, how exactly was Sirius to incur a life-debt to Harry? The only conceivable person who might try to kill Sirius who Harry might be able to stop is Snape (and even he wasn't going to kill Sirius himself or in fact cause him any physical harm) - and according to MD he was in on the plan, so a life-debt wouldn't be created by Harry's saving Sirius from him. For that matter, why would Dumbledore believe that, having gained his freedom, Sirius would choose to have anything to do with Harry and not go into hiding or go directly to Voldemort? >Dumbledore did not plan Sirius scape in my version of MD (in any of the versions, I think, but will tell you when -if- I do the unifying post).> Then who did he plan to send to Voldemort? All of the other DEs in Azkaban had the same problems as Sirius, and none of the ones on the outside had tried to reach Voldy in over a decade. >Dumbledore has not planned for anyone's death: Cedric and Harry shouldn't have been portkeyd, Bertha got lost because of a memory charmed placed onto her by Crouch Sr. and we have no reason to believe Dumbledore knew about Bryce at all before he made it to the newspapers. You might want to blame Dumbledore for their deaths, but I certainly do not:> I never blamed Dumbledore for Cedric, Frank and Bertha's deaths. I stated very explicitly, on more then one occasion, that I didn't think he was responsible for them. What I said was that he was complicit in them - which is a very different thing. >Voldemort killed them, and would've killed them anyway if Dumbledore had done nothing.> Hardly. All three died because Dumbledore allowed Peter to escape in order to return to Voldmort. If Peter had been apprehended or killed Voldemort would have remained a vapor. Peter would never have met Bertha and brought her to Voldemort to be tortured and killed. Voldemort and Peter never would have moved back to the Riddle House and crossed paths with Frank. And Moody wouldn't have been replaced by Barty Jr., and thus the Triwizard cup wouldn't have been transformed into a portkey (not to mention that Harry wouldn't have been in the tournament in the first place) and Cedric wouldn't have been AK'd by Peter. Once again, I'm not saying that Dumbledore is to blame for these deaths and I never did - they are Voldemort's fault. But Dumbledore helped bring them about, and if he really is a moral person he has to be aware of that. >Or if he had another plan completely: Frank was bound to investigate, and Voldemort would probably have gone to his father's house even if he had returned on his own. If Peter hadn't found Bertha, Voldemort might have, and might have returned to England in a newly possessed body.> Voldemort wouldn't have been able to come back to England without a servant to care for him, and he would have had no reason to even if he could - he only came back because of the information he got from Bertha. And while he might have run into Bertha himself, he might just as easily have never crossed paths with her. Not that it matters. Of course all of these things *could* have happened, and those three people might have died without Dumbledore's interference, but that's not what actually happened, is it? I can understand making the larger argument that 'some people are going to die either way' but I don't think you can get away with arguing that these specific people were certainly going to die. >Abigail: > If Dumbledore has indeed been planning for > Voldemort's return since the end of VWI, why would he turn [the MoM] > position down? He could have instituted the changes that he > now has to beg a bungler like Fudge to carry out. He could have > removed the Dementors from Azkaban, given all the prisoners > there a fair trial, not shoved Moody out of the Ministry like an old > handbag, sent envoys to the giants. He could have been actively > preparing the Wizarding World for Voldemort's return for the past > 15 years, but instead he's been teaching. Does that not suggest > that his mind was not constantly bent on Voldemort and ways to > defeat him?" >Let's hear *your* version for why Dumbledore didn't accept the post - you'll probably discover that it fits MD.> Grey Wolf, I don't have to have a version of anything - I'm not the person defending a theory. I presented you with canon which I think undermines your theory - the burden is on you to explain it away. >Mine is that it would mean too much paper-shuffling, and to put Dumbledore somewhere where he is unprotected (and make no mistake, Dumbledore need's Hogwarts protection as much as Harry does, IMO). It is in the school where he is strong and where he controls everything that goes on. In the MoM there are (were) still many DEs that could spy on him, and that is a risk Dumbledore is not willing to go through, I should think (never mind all those possible stray AKs).> I somehow doubt that a man gets offered the MoM position if he is completely without political allies outside of his own home turf. As for needing Hogwarts protection, I've never perceived the MoM as being the den of DEs that you seem to think it is. If anything it seems that the prevailing mood in the Ministry is one of apathy (no, I don't think Fudge is Ever So Evil). Even if there were still DEs in the Ministry (and not that I'm suggesting that there couldn't be but have we ever had canon evidence that there are?) as the guy on top Dumbledore would be in the best position to root them out, which is certainly better then leaving them to infect the entire Ministry for decades, probably collecting new recruits. >Also, you overestimate what Dumbledore would've been able to accomplish while in the office: a politician in a democracy (and I assume that the MoM is not an absolutist, since he is elected) has to do what the people want him to do, or else he will be overruled. We are told that half the WW want the Dementors at Azkaban - that is a close call, and Fudge is probably popular because of that measure.> Big. Evil. Grin. Of course you're right that Dumbledore could have spent 10 years at the Ministry tilting at windmills and getting absolutely nothing done, but what are his options? If he sits down and does nothing (and it was you who said that "Dumbledore set his plans into motion over 13 years ago, and apart from the occasional fine-tuning, most of those plans probably lie dormant until needed, or their active arrangements are in charge of members of the old gang." so in essence it would be sitting and doing nothing) then no change will take place in the Ministry for sure, while if he works hard, he at least has a possibility of implementing some changes in policy - the smallest of which might give Dumbledore's side an advantage when Voldy returns. Gee, that's a familiar argument, I wonder where I've heard it before? :-) >And, if you've read through the MD posts, you'll know that I believe that Dumbledore has a hand in the MoM anyway: through allies and friends like Arthur and other old gang members, he can pass laws that interest him, within reason.> There's a significant difference between having some influence in the Ministry and actually running it. Melody offered, on the same subject: >MoM is too in the spotlight. Can't have a *secret* spy war if your actions are being watched by red tape and cameras. Every move MoM!Dumbledore made would be broadcasted and even considered public's right to know.> Of course, because we all know that the last organization that might be able to set up a spy network is a *government*. I mean, a school headmaster, that's the guy you go to if you want to run a super-secret spy campaign! Sarcasm aside, I never got the impression that the wizarding government is as regulated as you're suggesting here. For example, why wasn't it widely known what it was that Sirius was really in Azkaban for? One of the best things about TBAY is the snappy send-offs, which I really can't do here since this is an odds-n-sods post. I guess I can just sign off, but not before echoing Amanda's very wise words - I attack theories, not people. I'm sorry if anyone feels otherwise. Abigail From lmccabe at sonic.net Wed Nov 27 06:28:53 2002 From: lmccabe at sonic.net (linda_mccabe) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 06:28:53 -0000 Subject: future animagi? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47250 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: > Dominique Medal wrote: > > I doubt that Dumbledore is an Animagus. If he were registered, > > Hermione would have mentioned it when she mentioned in PoA the number > > of Animagi registered with the Ministry. I also think the illegal > > Animagus has reached the end of its usefulness. > > > > Straya Luna niqui > > Point of canon: Although I don't think Dumbledore is an animagus > either, there is no reason for apearing in Hermione's list: she > especifically mentions that "have only been 7 registered animagus in > the last 100 years". Since Dumbledore is 150 years old, he could've > become an animaus before that (when he was 30, for example). > > Also, in the theme of illegal animagi, JKR has stated in an interview > (IIRC) that there will be no more illegal animagus introduced in the > books. > > Hope that helps, > > Grey Wolf Grey Wolf, Let's just hope that promise holds. However, that does not exclude the possibility that people have been forcibly transfigured into animals. We have seen in canon that Draco was turned into a snow white ferret. So, we know you can use transfiguration as punishment. I'm one of those who thinks Mrs. Norris is just a very odd name for a kitty cat. It might be okay if it were a name given by Hermione a Muggle bookworm who might be a Jane Austen fan. But that kind of name from a Squib? And Filch just doesn't seem like a big fan of 19th century Muggle literature to me. Add that into the mix including the mythological meaning of the name Argus and I get mighteee suspicious. Since the Greek myths had Argus watching over a transfigured woman...well, I'm thinking that Mrs. Norris was some woman that is being punished (for infidelity maybe?) That would add more meaning to the last name Filch (to steal someone's wife.) Plus there's always Trevor the Toad. He could also be transfigured forcibly, or be someone who was a legally registered Animagi but Hermione didn't recognize the significance of the name when she read the list. Other thoughts to ponder. Athena (Who has been AWOL from HPfGU for far too long. I'm trying to jump back in where I have an opinion on something and don't have to wade through all the two months of backlogged messages.) http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/L_C_McCabe/ From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Wed Nov 27 06:43:13 2002 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 06:43:13 -0000 Subject: Web Site for HP Name Meanings (WAS: Harry's name) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47251 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > Now me: > > I happen to agree with Eloise - there are a lot of names in the > series that have significant hidden meanings, but I don't think Harry > Potter's name is one of them (although there is a James Henry Trotter > in Dahl's "James and the Giant Peach" whose parents die in a freak > accident, is left to be raised by his two horrid aunts (one of whom > is bony) and discovers magic...James Henry Trotter, Harry James > Potter...). > > There's a great web site for HP name meanings if you're interested: > > http://www.theninemuses.net/hp/ > And as that site mentions, there was a bit character on an episode of Monty Python named Harry Potter. Also, P G Wodehouse wrote a story called "Mr Potter Takes a Rest Cure", starring John Hamilton Potter. At one point, seing the horrible Clifford Gandle approaching, Mr. Potter jumps back and hides in a small cupboard (which, naturally, Mr. Gandle opens). For that matter, "The Man who Gave Up Smoking", also by P G Wodehouse, has Hermione Rossiter, and her brother George... --Arcum From ilovelucius at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 03:39:59 2002 From: ilovelucius at yahoo.com (Robin Van Dusen) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:39:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Typographical Error on Goblet of Fire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021127033959.14222.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47252 re: typographical error on Goblet of Fire, Hi Mimi! I am new as well. It is nice to see someone else new. My last post didn't make it up, I think I said something really stupid or something I do have the same typo in my copy. I missed that when I read it, though. Good eye! I also assume that is what it should have read. Robin mimi wrote: Hi! I'm new to this group. I would just like to share that the hardbound book of Goblet of Fire that I have has a typo error on it. On page 291, last line, Harry's letter to Sirius reads: "...I don't who put my name..." I assumed it should read "... I don't know who put my name..." Well, that's all I can share for now. Do any of you have the same error as well? mimi Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susannahlm at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 04:18:26 2002 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (susannahlm) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 04:18:26 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Here, puppy, puppy, puppy! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47253 The early grey of dawn has begun to appear through the windows at George's Tavern. Most of the theorists have by now staggered off back to their ships, or on to newer theories. The ones that remain are mostly hung over. Not Captain Cindy, of course. She is having a grand old time--throwing the furniture about, Apparating back and forth between the Big Bang and the Tavern, and, oddly for her, waving the red flag tauntingly in front of the Sirius Apologist. Derannimer, having thwacked Charis Julia cordially on the back and made her adieus, walks toward Cindy in the Tavern. "Isn't this canon strange?" Cindy is saying to Dicentra, with a certain slightly malicious gleam in her eye. Dicentra is turning about as red as her robes. "I mean, Sirius is supposed to be a good guy. He was on Dumbledore's team, and he is probably good at Transfiguration. But there's nothing to suggest he knows the first thing about Dark Magic. We've never seen him perform any, and he hasn't even conjured a Patronus, so far as we know. Yet here JKR is hinting that Sirius is someone who 'had experience with Dark Magic.' What could she be implying there, exactly? That Sirius is *Ever So Evil,* do you think?" Derannimer stops and thinks, and then reluctantly shakes her head. No. *She's* certainly not a Sirius Apologist, but "had experience with Dark Magic" is what *Harry* is thinking. So the phrase must apply to something that Harry knows about. Harry certainly doesn't know Sirius to be Ever-So-Evil. It probably means time spent during VW1, Azkaban, etc. Still, teasing Dicentra really looks like fun. . . Derannimer continues to make her way over to Cindy. But only briefly-- "Oof!" she exclaims, or something like that anyway. Her eyes close as she hits the floor. She's not sure that she wants to open them. . . something knocked her down. Something is still pinning her to the ground. Something *heavy.* And. . . furry. And. . . YECHH! . . .possessed of a very warm, wet tongue. Derannimer's eyes snap open, and she beholds a very large and obviously friendly dog standing over her. "Get *off*!" She shoves the creature off her and scrambles to her feet. As she looks down on it, her stare is not a friendly one. The dog gazes back at her, a typically adoring and doggy look in its brown eyes. Derannimer suddenly notices that it is carrying a stick. "Awwww," she croons, melting. She squats down next to the dog and starts to ruffle its ears. "Poor puppy just wants to play doesn't you? Doesn't you? "What's a cute widdle puppy like you doing in a place like this? Who do you belong to, anyway?" Derannimer spots the collar on the dog, and twists it around to read the name. "Prank. Oh, that's cute. "Oh wait, hang on, there's more. It says: 'PRANK--If you find me talk to Dicentra.' "Hmmmm, odd. I never knew Dicentra had a dog." Derannimer straightens and calls across the room: "Hey Dicentra! You still here? I think this is your dog--was he missing? Name of Prank? I want to--" she looks down at the dog, who whaps his tail encouragingly--"I want to talk to you about him for a sec!" Derannimer (who is *not* ordinarily a dog person, but who is currently thinking about buying a leash. Such a cute pooch!) From chthonicdancer at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 03:10:45 2002 From: chthonicdancer at hotmail.com (chthonia9) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 03:10:45 -0000 Subject: Why do 'purebloods' hate Muggles? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47254 This is one I've been pondering for a while. (I've also spent a couple of house looking through archives, FAQs etc and not found anything) I've been trying to get my head round what is driving the Voldemort supporters ? though from Harry's (or more generally a Gryffindor) point of view `they went bad' might suffice, it's not a very convincing (or interesting) argument in my opinion. Maybe all the Death Eaters were motivated by various individual combinations of lust for power, desire to offset their own sense of insignificance by aligning themselves to a powerful, directive force, or destructive urges to wreak mayhem. But throughout the books there's this constant emphasis on bloodlines, and while we do get a reason why Riddle/Voldemort would hate Muggles, and hence direct his movement that way, there also seems to a more general prejudice (expressed most forcefully by the Malfoys), and I can't really see where its roots might be. Before going into this ? in an attempt to look at it clearly I'm going to be fairly blunt about some pretty sensitive issues. I don't _think_ I'm saying anything offensive, but if I've misjudged that, please forgive me. Here goes: I wouldn't (thankfully) claim to be an expert in genocidal conflicts, but from what I do know they tend to be founded on an irresolvable, deep-seated sense of either injustice or threat. To give two examples if the former: I vividly remember discussing the situation in the Balkans with a Serbian colleague about 8 years ago, trying to understand what was going on, and he began by talking about events that had occured 1000 years ago. Similarly, I've spoken to people bitterly embroiled on both sides of the Troubles in Northern Ireland, and both sides had their litany of ills that the other side had perpetrated. This is not the case at all in JKR's Wizardingworld, where one `side' (Muggles) is completely oblivious to the very existence of the other, so there is nothing to feel threatened or bitter about (unless one makes the assumption that our inquisitions and witch burnings were actually carried out against this Wizarding community, rather than being a completely Muggle phenomenon. I doubt this assumption ? there is nothing to suggest it in the books (unless I have missed something) ? though OTOH there are very good political/commercial reasons why JKR would avoid any such implication) So is it that the purebloods feel threatened by the rise of Muggles and halfbloods? This is certainly implied, but seems a bit illogical. Well, OK, prejudice by definition isn't logical, but consider: 1) There is no history (that we know of) of Wizard/Muggle social hierarchy that is being changed; it's not as if it is former slaves/servants who are now being accepted as equals. Muggles and Wizards have (presumably?) lived separately. Arguably the Wizards may have felt the Muggles were inferior, but this seems to be on the basis of not being magic, rather than cultural reasons, and: 2) There is no dilution of wizarding abilities by breeding out/in ? quite the reverse. So the purebloods can't exactly complain that magic itself, say, is under threat. 3) The prejudice only seems to apply to parents, not grandparents (as has been discussed on the list before, I think) Eh??! 4) There is no physically observable difference (that we know of) between pureblood/halfblood/Muggle, so people aren't going to immediately look at someone and get a sense of `otherness' onto which they can project all the qualities they perceive as undesirable. Therefore they don't have a situation similar to Muggle multi-racial societies where there is a hierarchy of oppressed groups, with those physically resembling the dominant group having a generally easier time of it. This also means that discrimination is less likely to become established ? they won't have the situation of treating a stranger as `one of them' first and a person second, becausethey won't know who is 'us' and who 'them'. 5) Nor is there a cultural difference ? once you're a wizard, you're part of the wizarding world, so there isn't a clash of values, customs, beliefs etc 6) There doesn't seem to be any economic threat to the purebloods, who seem to be quite comfortably populating the higher echelons of society. At the end of GoF it's stated that Weasley hasn't been promoted up the Ministry because he's too sympathetic to Muggles, which rather implies that actual Muggles wouldn't stand a chance. We aren't dealing with a democracy or a meritocracy here ? the powerful seem pretty adept at protecting their interests. And the Malfoys aren't doing too badly, are they? 7) The prejudice doesn't appear to be widespread ? many `pureblood' families (Weasleys, Longbottoms?) seem quite relaxed about it. (On reflection, the only thing I can think of is that accepting Muggle-borns into Wizard society means that more Muggles know about it, which compromises security. There's an obvious inconsistency here ? as a Muggle it's for your daughter to get a letter to Hogwarts, but not OK for your neighbourhood witch to Apparate on your front lawn.) So basically, we have a prejudice with no foundation in ability, cultural difference or economic threat, against a group of people that isn't easily distinguishable which means that everyday discriminatory behaviours are unlikely to take hold in a major way. So what's going on? Is the whole pureblood thing just the fear of those at the very top that losing anything is losing everything? Is JKR trying to make the point that prejudice is stupid and wrong so clearly that she's glossing over the ugly and real reasons for such behaviours taking root? Have I missed something? Or is there some quirk of wizard society or genealogy that we don't know about yet, but which makes the issue much more materially important? Actually, even among the `good guys,' character traits in the Wizarding world seem to rely on bloodlines rather more than for Muggles ? look at how many relatives are in different Houses (I can only think of the Patils, offhand), compared to those who are placed together (Lily/James/Harry, Dennis/Colin Creevy, *seven* Weasleys, countless generations of Malfoys, Crabbe/Crabbe Snr, Goyle/Goyle Snr, the Bulstrodes etc). In this world, Nature wins out over nurture (Harry being an extreme case in point); even assuming there is a family tradition of belonging to a house, such a degree of consistency is remarkable. Again, if I've inadvertently offended anyone, please accept my apologies. Chthonia From chuck_richie_99 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 03:18:20 2002 From: chuck_richie_99 at yahoo.com (Chuck) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 03:18:20 -0000 Subject: TriWizard Cup as Portkey In-Reply-To: <9p4lb4+q9b0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47255 Ancient thread, new poster. This struck me as simply bad writing. There was no reason for Harry to even be in the Tournament. To get him to touch the Cup? That's it? And the whole, very specific setup at the beginning about how time specific portkeys are. Strikes me that after 650 pages, JKR just plain forgot. And it was an easy knot to wriggle out of. All that needed tobe explained was that the spell to bring back Voldy needed the blood of a wizard of some sort of experience level. Voldy had a deadline (sorry for the pun) that he had to return within a certain timeframe or he would never be able to. Since Harry didn't take OWLs yet, the Tournament would serve to boost his abilities. The cup as portkey could easily have been handled by having the tournament end in the maze followed by a prescheduled awards ceremony, at which the cup was to be awarded. Harry wins. Party. Ceremony. Cup handed to Harry. He holds it over his head. Poof! Tangles resovled. I think it's just poor writing. Chuck From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 04:30:43 2002 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 04:30:43 -0000 Subject: Sociopathic Sirius? (and Paranoid Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47256 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Judy" wrote: > Hey, the Sirius Apologists disagree with the Snapefans. Who would > have expected that? ;-) ME: Hey, I am both - Sirius apologist and Snape fan. I guess I have to disagree with myself. :o) > Sirius and PTSD > > As Penny mentioned, I don't subscribe to the theory that Sirius' > behavior in PoA can be explained by PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress > Disorder.) Symptoms of PTSD usually don't appear until *after* the > trauma is over. During the crisis, the person's mind is focused on > survival, and the person often thinks, "If only I could get out of > this situation, things would be all right." It's not until after the > crisis has passed that the full impact hits and the person realizes > that life will never be the same. In PoA, Sirius is on the run, > everyone thinks he's a murderer, he's half-starved, the dementors are > on his trail. He's still in crisis mode; it's too early for PTSD. If > he was going to show signs of PTSD, I'd expect them to show up in > GoF. ME: Well, I think that Sirius' behaviour in the PoA can be explained by PSTD. In fact, I like this theory very much. It is true, that Sirius is still on the run, but main crisis, which in my opinion has caused PSTD in Sirius, has passed already. He is out of Azkaban. It is common for the simptoms to start in three months or later after the end of the traumatic event. I think Shrieking Shack was just about time. > I don't believe that a few months in the tropics could undo the damage > caused by 12 years of hell. Saying that Sirius has recovered by GoF > implies that people can recover quickly from years of trauma, and I > don't think that's true. Portraying Sirius as recovering so quickly > bothers me because people who've been traumatized in real life are > often told to "just get over it" and are pressured to recover quickly, > even if that just isn't possible. ME: NO, of course you are right. He could not have completely recovered in GoF, but he could get much better and I believe that he did. > Here's a question that I've been meaning to ask Sirius' (many) fans. > Did you like him in PoA? Or, did you not start to like him until you > read GoF? I'm wondering if people like him *because* of his actions > in PoA, or *despite* his actions in PoA. ME: I did like him in PoA. I would love of course to hear his apology to Snape, but since I think that he was too traumatized in Shriecking Shack, I am willing to wait more. :o) In fact I am convinced that we did not hear it only for the plot purposes in order for even more explosive revelations in Snape/Black relationship to follow. I hope so at least. :o) > Snape and Remorse > > Penny said: > >I would argue that Snape actually very definitely lacks remorse for > hurting others -- or at least he certainly doesn't allow any remorse > he might be feeling to stop him from abusing his position of power and > knowingly hurting quite a number of the students under his purported > tutelage. Yeah, I have some strong feelings about Snape's use of his > teacher role, Snape-fans. :--) < > > I see Snape as consumed by remorse; the clearest evidence is the scene > when Fake!Moody says talks about "stains that won't come off." > However, even without this scene, Snape pretty much *has* to be full > of remorse. What, except remorse for what he had done, would lead him > to risk everything and leave the DEs when Voldemort was at the height > of his powers? And how could Dumbledore possibly trust a former DE > who wasn't remorseful? > > As for Snape's treatment of students, I certainly don't approve of a > teacher acting that way. A number of explanations for his behavior > have been proposed, including the need to impress the Slytherins of > his opposition to aurors, muggleborns, and Harry. Even if we can't > explain away his hostile behavior, though, I still don't think that > means he is unable to feel remorse. I think his hostile behavior in > the classroom shows he lacks *empathy*. He doesn't know what it would > be like to be a teenage girl teased about her teeth. He doesn't know > what it would be like to be bumbling at potions. Snape practically > comes right out and says he's low in empathy: "Don't ask me to fathom > how a werewolf's mind works!" I'm not convinced he realizes that his > behavior hurts his students. > > And, yes, being low in empathy can be a sign of sociopathy, but only > in combination with other factors that Snape doesn't have. There can > be many reasons for lacking empathy. In Snape's case, it might be his > high level of anger, or it could be that lack of social interaction > has limited his knowledge of other people's experiences. > > I think LowEmpathy!Snape fits well with my theory about why he left > the DEs. (My theory is that he was in love with Lily, and left when > the Potters were threatened.) Until someone he cared about was > threatened, he didn't fully realize how evil the DEs were, because he > didn't empathize with their other victims. ME: I can only state my agreement with this part of your analysis. I think that Snape feels a lot of remorse for his past behaviour and this is the main reason why I like him so much, in spite of the fact that I despise his teaching style. Low empathy! Snape fits here well too. Alla From twileen at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 04:44:47 2002 From: twileen at yahoo.com (Aileen) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 04:44:47 -0000 Subject: Snape and Quirrell (was Snape, Lucius, and missing DEs) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47257 I don't think we can assume that Snape revealed so much of himself to Quirrellmort as all we have to go on is the dialogue on page 226 of SS. "'Have you found out how to get past that beast of Hagrid's yet?' 'B-b-but Severus, I--' 'You don't want me as your enemy, Quirrell,' said Snape, taking a step toward him. 'I-I don't know what you--' 'You know perfectly well what I mean.' An owl hooted loudly, and Harry nearly fell out of the tree. He steadied himself in time to hear Snape say, '--your little bit of hocus-pocus. I'm waiting.' 'B-but I d-d-don't--' 'Very well,' Snape cut in. 'We'll have another little chat soon, when you've had time to think things over and decided where your loyalties lie.'" For all we know this could have been a set up to get Quirrell to tell Snape that he was in league with Voldemort. Its especially suspicious because of the situation Dumbledore put the PS in. I mean that if Dumbledore's intention was really to keep the PS safe why couldn't he have simply surrounded it with wards and hidden it in his office? But what he did do was keep it in the third floor corridor past a series of tests, not even real obsticles, but *tests* that one would need to pass in order to get to the stone, not to mention that the door was opened by a very simple unlocking spell. Isn't it possible that Snape was under orders to seek out those who may be out to get the stone for Voldie by playing the friendly neighborhood former DE? And with that in mind isn't it possible that Snape did not, in fact, reveal anything about his spy status to Quirrellmort? -twileen From Audra1976 at aol.com Wed Nov 27 08:09:03 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 03:09:03 -0500 Subject: Snape's treatment of Draco (was: Re:Snape, Lucius, and missing DE's (was: Re: Snape and the Potters) Message-ID: <3FBADCC7.7B9CA7DC.022D3A68@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47258 Jazmyn wrote: <> Snape's treatment of Draco as interpreted by Harry and others may just be another misconception about him. We are led to think that Snape just favors the Slytherins and especially Draco just because Snape shares the belief that purebloods are superior and because Draco is from a prominent, wealthy, pureblood family. Now I'm not saying that Snape doesn't really have these beliefs (I love him and everything, but face it, the man has issues ;)), but perhaps Snape is also favoring Draco because, as Jazmyn asserts, he perceives Draco may be tempted to make the same mistakes he did, and he intends to use his leverage to guide Draco away from those mistakes. If this is so, we should begin to really see it develop in the next book, as it *appears* that Lucius will be a full-fledged DE again, actively serving Voldemort, and Snape is on the opposing side. Audra From Audra1976 at aol.com Wed Nov 27 09:19:47 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 04:19:47 -0500 Subject: Both Parents Work? Where's the Canon? Message-ID: <1768E049.1FB2F236.022D3A68@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47259 Eileen asks: > Where's the canon? It might be true, but so far we haven't seen any > couples who both work. We haven't seen many couples period, but that's > how it is. Meanwhile, Molly Weasley stays at home. I think > we don't > have any canon at all here to go on. Me: Lily Potter and Mrs. Longbottom were both stated to be Aurors, weren't they? Molly Weasley is the only stay-at-home mom we hear of. Narcissa Malfoy probably doesn't work either, but that's only speculation, not stated in canon. By the same token, I can't imagine Mrs. LeStrange was a little housewife. If I'm right, that means that while we don't get much information about couples, we know for sure of more working wives than not. Audra From anglinsbees at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 09:48:02 2002 From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:48:02 -0000 Subject: Both Parents Work? Where's the Canon? In-Reply-To: <1768E049.1FB2F236.022D3A68@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47260 Hmmmmmm, I dont think so. I don't believe that we are sure that anyone besides Nevilles was an auror. And, as far as I know, Both James and Lilies professions, as well as where they got their money have yet to be revealed. The Idea that Lily and Mrs Longbottom were Auros a common fanon idea tho, so that may be where you have seen it. See; http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/lily.html http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/longbottom.html Ellen, The Pottering Beekeeper --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Audra1976 at a... wrote: > Me: > Lily Potter and Mrs. Longbottom were both stated to be Aurors, weren't they? Molly Weasley is the only stay-at-home mom we hear of. Narcissa Malfoy probably doesn't work either, but that's only speculation, not stated in canon. By the same token, I can't imagine Mrs. LeStrange was a little housewife. If I'm right, that means that while we don't get much information about couples, we know for sure of more working wives than not. > > Audra From mmckay at argo.net.au Wed Nov 27 08:17:59 2002 From: mmckay at argo.net.au (personman46) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 08:17:59 -0000 Subject: Snape's treatment of Draco (was: Re:Snape, Lucius, and missing DE's (was: Re: Snape and the Potters) In-Reply-To: <3FBADCC7.7B9CA7DC.022D3A68@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47261 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Audra1976 at a... wrote: > Jazmyn wrote: > <> > > Snape's treatment of Draco as interpreted by Harry and others may just be another misconception about him. We are led to think that Snape just favors the Slytherins and especially Draco just because Snape shares the belief that purebloods are superior and because Draco is from a prominent, wealthy, pureblood family. > > Now I'm not saying that Snape doesn't really have these beliefs (I love him and everything, but face it, the man has issues ;)), but perhaps Snape is also favoring Draco because, as Jazmyn asserts, he perceives Draco may be tempted to make the same mistakes he did, and he intends to use his leverage to guide Draco away from those mistakes. > > If this is so, we should begin to really see it develop in the next book, as it *appears* that Lucius will be a full-fledged DE again, actively serving Voldemort, and Snape is on the opposing side. > > Audra Hi, this is my first post so I hope I do everything right. My last post was denied, but oh well. What I don't understand is why Lucius lets his son anywhere near Snape, assuming that Lucius knows that Snape is a traitor and was a spy against his cause (which all would have been revealed through the trials of the DE's after the fall of Voldemort). Wouldn't he have used his influence as a School Governor to make sure Snape never even got the job in the first place? You'ld think that Lucius would be afraid Snape would do what was mentioned above to his son. -Person Man From Audra1976 at aol.com Wed Nov 27 10:34:42 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 05:34:42 -0500 Subject: Sociopathic Riddle (was: Re:Sociopathic Sirius?(and Paranoid Snape?) Message-ID: <3839DA3B.30DE5709.022D3A68@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47262 judyshapiro at directvinternet.com writes: > I'm saying that being charming should be part of the diagnostic > criteria, but only in interaction with the other criteria. In other > words, the constellation of being charming *and* fearless and > impulsive indicates sociopathy, but being charming > *without* those > other things is not a sign of sociopathy at all. "Charming" is not among the diagnostic criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder (APD) for good reason. A great number of (probably most) Antisocial Personality types are *not* charming. They are misfits in society with little social skill. Many spend most of their lives in prison. Young Tom Riddle was not in this category, but I felt the need to correct your thinking that all people with APD are "*both* charming and fearless." This is not at all the case. There are, however, many people with APD who are cunning enough and possess enough restraint to "mask" their disorder from society. These are the "charming sociopaths" to whom you are referring. However even if these types far outnumbered the "misfit" types (which they don't), "charming" would still not be listed in the criteria, as it is a subjective description, not an observable behavior. The behavior that allows someone with APD to come off as "charming" is *already* listed in the criteria: *deceitfulness,* repeated lying and cheating to achieve their end. Tom Riddle seems to be this type of person. The following is a compiled list of typical beliefs held by individuals with APD (from _Cognitve Therapy of Personality Disorders_, Beck, Freeman,& ass. p. 361). I was compelled by how accurately each of these beliefs suit Tom Riddle/Voldemort: 1.) Force or cunning is the best way to get things done. 2.) We live in a jungle and the strong person is the one who survives. 3.) People will get me unless I get them first. 4.) It is not important to keep promises or honor debts. 5.) Lying and cheating are OK as long as you don't get caught. 6.) I have been unfairly treated and am entitled to get my fair share by whatever means I can. 7.) If other people can't take care of themselves, that's their problem. Audra, who would like to thank Ellen for the correction about jobs--canon, fanon, schmanon...it all seems to run together lately. ;) From pen at pensnest.co.uk Wed Nov 27 11:09:34 2002 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:09:34 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin's Reactions In-Reply-To: <20021126222213.95459.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47263 > Carol Bainbridge wrote, in part: >> >> I think JKR used the word "strange" for a >> reason here. Why not "tense" or "strained" >> or "weary" or some such word? Any of which >> would have made more sense if what Lupin is >> feeling is only concern for Harry. Actually, >> now that I think more about it, I think the >> second instance (page 239) might indicate >> more than concern for Harry. But then >> maybe it's just that Harry said Voldemort's >> name and we know that makes wizards and witches >> a bit nervous. Or maybe that's just what JKR >> wants us to think. > I think that JKR wanted us to be very wary of Lupin. On my first reading of PoA I took him at face value, and liked him very much. On my second reading, I couldn't believe I hadn't had him pegged for the villain first time through! There are all sorts of ambiguities around Lupin. 'Strange', in the above instance, is more ambiguous than 'strained', etc. The obvious baddie of the book, Sirius Black, is of course not the actual baddie. But the actual baddie might very well have been Lupin, whom Harry likes and trusts (Moody, anyone?), but who is presented with... hmm, elusiveness. Pen From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Nov 27 11:31:51 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 06:31:51 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's treatment of Draco (was: Re:Snape, Lucius, and mi... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47264 Audra: > Jazmyn wrote: > < he made, favoring him cause he sees himself as a kid?>> > > Eloise: Whilst I *do* think that it's quite possible (and personally believe) that Snape sees his younger self in Draco and favours him for that reason, it is also pretty necessary for him to keep in with Lucius. As I have said before, prior to Voldemort's return we don't actually *know* what either of them believes about the other. I suspect that Snape doesn't believe Lucius's Imperius defence and in any case caution demands that he assume he is still an active Voldmort supporter. We don't know what Lucius believes about Snape, but again, Snape can't give him any excuse to go running to the governors, trying to get him sacked. Audra: Snape's treatment of Draco as interpreted by Harry and others may just be another misconception about him. We are led to think that Snape just favors the Slytherins and especially Draco just because Snape shares the belief that purebloods are superior and because Draco is from a prominent, wealthy, pureblood family. Eloise: The other way round, I would say. It is easy to *assume* that the reason he favours Draco and the Slytherins is because he shares the pureblood superiority doctrine, but I cannot think of anywhere in canon where he implies or demonstrates this. In fact, I don't think that anyone so close to and trusted by Dumbledore *could* embrace this doctrine. What we see is Snape favouring the Slytherins and penalising the Gryffindors. Ron and (especially) Neville gain no advantage by vitrue of being of old, pureblood families, do they? And much as he apparently detests Hermione, she still beats Draco in Potions. -Person Man: >What I don't understand is why Lucius lets his son anywhere near >Snape, assuming that Lucius knows that Snape is a traitor and was a >spy against his cause (which all would have been revealed through >the trials of the DE's after the fall of Voldemort). Wouldn't he >have used his influence as a School Governor to make sure Snape >never even got the job in the first place? You'ld think that Lucius >would be afraid Snape would do what was mentioned above to his son. [ie guiding him away from making the same mistakes he made] Eloise: I'll add this on, since you've posted since I wrote the above. Welcome! Here's a prompt response to your first post! This is a Very Good Question which I'm glad you asked, as it is one of the reasons that some of us believe that the door *is* still open for Snape to resume his secret agent role. We have *no indication whatsoever* that Lucius Malfoy distrusts Snape. In fact from what Draco says about how he would favour Snape for headmaster, rather the opposite. Similarly, we have *no indication whatsoever* that the DEs know that Snape switched sides. They have been bad-mouthing Pettigrew in Azkaban, so why not Snape? Sirius hears about Pettigrew in Azkaban, but has not the foggiest that Snape even was a DE, let alone that he had changed sides. What Crouch Jr knows or suspects is not clear. When he interviews Snape on the stairs, he is of course masquerading as Moody and any information he might have as to his defection would probably come from questioning real!Moody. How we explain his apparent outing in the Pensieve by Dumbledore, I don't know. But an equally big problem with that is how the whole school doesn't know he's an ex-DE and how the parents and governors have tolerated a known ex-DE as a staff member all this time. I firmly believe that that apparent public outing was not, in fact, public, or this just doesn't make sense to me. I also believe that Voldemort thought that Snape had infiltrated Dumbledore's camp on his orders, that Snape was a double agent, passing carefully vetted pieces of information on to Voldemort to maintain his cover whilst actively spying on Voldemort for Dumbledore. ~Eloise ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You think that just because it's already happened, the past is finished and unhangeable? Oh no, the past is cloaked in multi-colored taffeta and every time we look at it we see a different hue. (Milan Kundera, Life is Elsewhere) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Nov 27 12:45:35 2002 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:45:35 -0000 Subject: Snape the alleged vampire Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47265 I have been trying to get my head round this one for a while and finally come up with something that works for me. First some thematic stuff. Whatever he may be magibiologically, Snape is not a *thematic* vampire. He doesn't drain anyone of anything. You only have to think of the Dementors (metaphorical vampires) or Voldemort (both literal, via Quirrell and the rebirthing potion, and metaphorical) to see the difference. So, while it might be that Snape gets his physical nourishment from blood, is hard to kill, etc., he isn't a parasite, and doesn't IMO represent any form of parasitism. Indeed, it is his excess of bodily fluids that marks him out, as has been remarked here before. But he does look the part, doesn't he, swooping around like an overgrown bat? So how's this for a scenario: in a future book, it emerges that a vampire is on the loose at Hogwarts. Girls turn pale and wan, someone dies with the prick-marks and is seen again at night, a comic vampire hunter with a foreign accent and dysfunctional detection gadgets turns up etc. Harry and the Scooby Gang are on the case, and with their usual unerring accuracy, decide it must be Professor Misdirection himself, Snape. Suddenly all the precedents of Lupin, Hagrid, and the animagi become relevant. Hermione protests: 'But surely Dumbledore wouldn't...', Ron answers: 'An evil vampire like Snape would have no trouble fooling Dumbledore'. Sirius will add that he suspected it all along, and that's why he was prepared to let him face a werewolf. Suspicion will fall on other dark-haired people with good flying abilities, partcularly but not only those from the Balkans. In the final confrontation Voldemort, in his usual conversational way, will let drop how insufferable it was sharing a turban with all that garlic, just because Quirrell believed Snape to be a vampire. And then it will turn out to be the new DADA teacher, who was turned into a vampire by Voldemort's agent (the pale Lucius?) just after her first (outside Hogwarts as usual) meeting with Harry. Cue the choice of endings, as the DADA teacher finds forgiveness, redemption, and an antidote courtesy of Snape (enter Percy with the MOM guidelines here too), or not. Not that I approve of speculation, you understand. ;-) David From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed Nov 27 12:50:41 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:50:41 -0000 Subject: question about bubble head charm In-Reply-To: <004a01c2959e$fdb1e220$6401a8c0@dedanaan> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47266 Karen wrote: > I've been wondering about the bubble head charm Cedric used in the second task. The gillyweed that Harry used had a limit of about one hour. What about the bubble head charm? Would it last as long as the caster wants it to, or does it also have a limited time frame? Anyone have any thoughts or ideas on this? > > Thanks, > > Karen Hi, Karen, and welcome to active posting. I'm going to give you my own views in the matter of magical theory. These views have been expressed by others before, but there is no real consensus (or worse, canon) to base on. So far in the books, charms seem to come with a pre-defined end in the incantation. This end (as most of the other details in the spell) is implicit, and it seems to draw heavily in the *intent* of the person doing the spell. That is, "accio" alone will serve almost every purpose, from fetching sweets from the twins' pockets to attracting a cup that is two tombstones away. A Magician pwerful enough, in fact, doesn't even need to specify the spell - his will alone seems to be enough (Dumbledore summoning hundreds of bedrolls, Snape shooting ropes out of his wand). All this seems to imply that the details of the spell are worked in the head and that all of them are proyected unconsciously into it. Which means, of course, that the bubble head charms could have included a limited duration (say, about two hours, just in case) and, since Cedric didn't drown, it was either long enough to make it to the surface and then it disapeared on its own, or it was still in force when he arrived to the beach and at that point he dispelled it (you can see from the bouncing ferret incident that there are indeed spells to end spells, even if that one especifically was a transfiguration and not a charm). Another school of thinking (which I haven't seen in this list so far, but I might have missed it) just popped into my mind to me while writting the post. It is based on the reality rules of another fantasy world (Forgotten Realms underdark drow language, for anyone interested, but the ties are minimal). According to this theory, most of the details could be included in the "swish and flick" that accompanies each spell. The number of positions a hand can take and, by extension, the number of patrons the wand could follow and draw in the air in the couple of seconds it takes to work a spell in the Potterverse is virtually infinity, specially since the "grain of spell" (that is, the smallest possible movement which is identifiable as different from any other, thus serving as a "letter" or "idea") can be very small indeed. Canon for this is the famous wingardium leviosa class. While most of the action concentrates around the pronunciation of the spell, we know that they have spent a lot of time practising the movements too. Thus, it could be argued that those movements define the spell as much as the wording does, at least at the very begining (any number of spells have been created with a simple flick of the fingers, which brings us back to the will-based spells theory I mentioned above, since later on it seems that movement can be overriden just like wording). Finally, there was a theory stated some time back that said that either charms or transfiguration are permanent, while the other is not. I am unsure of the details, though, so you should check the archives for that (if you do try, good luck wrestling with yahoomort), or maybe some other listee remembers the details or at least the post. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 10:33:26 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:33:26 -0000 Subject: Snape and the DADA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47267 I believe that while Snape wants the DADA job, he won't be allowed to have it on a permarment basis, maybe just small times like when Lupin was 'ill'. While he is a very good teacher, his star pupil, hermione, manages to brew polyjuice potion in 2nd year, his divided loyalties (or need to keep an appearance of such) make it impossible for Dumbledore to give him the post. Following the 'Snape as Spy' theory, if Voldemort accepts him back, he will then instruct Snape to dilute the DADA lessons to weaken Harry for the next meeting. It would be very obvious to Voldemort that Snape was not doing that (though Draco's reports to his dad) and a quick AK will end the life of our potions master. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 11:55:58 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:55:58 -0000 Subject: Why Harry Doesn't See His Parents Dying (WAS: Voices from the past) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47268 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > Finwitch asked: > > > Why didn't Harry *see* his parent's death in this, BTW? He says he > > *hears* them, but doesn't mention anything he saw except ever-so- > > famous Green Light? > > Now me: > > How painful do we want to make this experience for the poor boy?? Dementors wouldn't care how much Harry hurts, do they? > But even putting that aside, IMO, JKR is intentionally withholding > crucial information about the night Lily and James died. We probably > won't know all of the answers about that night until Book 7. We're > getting bits and pieces along the way, but we clearly don't have the > full picture, and there must be a good reason - it must be crucial to > the plot, and therefore crucial that we don't have all of the answers > just yet. So when Harry comes face to face with the dementors, fog > conveniently obscures his senses, and all he can do is hear. Thought it might be the answer why JKR made it that way, but it's not an in-story-explanation which may or may not become out... Maybe Harry was doing the kiddie-hiding: covering his eyes and thus believing he's not seen? When his Mom died, well-- he's just take his hands off... Or something else that Lily or Harry did. > Harry also passes out after hearing the voices. His experience right > before fainting is very similar to the pre-fainting experiences I've > had - where I can still hear what's going on, but everything starts > to go blurry. Blurry? I've fainted a few times myself but nothing ever went /blurry/ first... -- Finwitch From cressida_tt at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 12:16:49 2002 From: cressida_tt at hotmail.com (Diane) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:16:49 -0000 Subject: Both Parents Work? Where's the Canon? In-Reply-To: <1768E049.1FB2F236.022D3A68@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47269 Eileen asks: > > Where's the canon? It might be true, but so far we haven't seen any > > couples who both work. We haven't seen many couples period, but that's > > how it is. Meanwhile, Molly Weasley stays at home. I think > > we don't > > have any canon at all here to go on. Although not a witch, Mrs Granger is stated in canon to be a dentist. I imagine that Mrs Malfoy is far too wealthy to work and is very much the lady of the manor. Actually we have no idea from canon if any of the teachers working at Hogwarts are actually married. D. From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 12:12:37 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:12:37 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47270 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > I thought that he could have made the excuse that he was at Hogwarts > when the summons came, and according to Hermione, one CAN'T apparate > or disapparate at Hogwarts. > > Wanda Yes, well-- At *Hogwarts* you can't, but out-of-grounds, i.e. Forbidden Forest, Hogsmeade, (Quidditch-pitch?) - it's possible and NOT all that far. He can buy only that much time with that excuse, not enough not to witness Harry there, anyway. But I think he *did* go there, wearing invisibility cloak and capturing Pettigrew at the earliest possible moment... (So that Voldemort won't notice him gone), take Time-Turner back and tell Dumbledore all of it, (of course they couldn't tell of Pettigrew's capture to anyone until the Proper Moment. -- Finwitch From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 13:10:18 2002 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:10:18 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47271 I thought that he could have made the excuse that he was at Hogwarts > when the summons came, and according to Hermione, one CAN'T apparate > or disapparate at Hogwarts. > > Wanda Personally, I think that is a very valid point. It would have been impossible for Snape to disapparate from Hogwarts, giving him a very good excuse on why he didn't show up... Another question I have is....Why didn't "Mad-Eye" go to V. like everyone else? Was is because he couldn't disapparate, or was Crouch still pretending? What I don't get is this...if Crouch new that Harry had already gone to V. why didn't he follow? There is no way that he knew Harry was going to beat V. and make his way back. So why did he stick around? Why didn't he join the DE's? Jacqui From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed Nov 27 13:25:26 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:25:26 -0000 Subject: Why do 'purebloods' hate Muggles? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47272 Chthonia (Interesting name, btw - how should I pronounce it?) wrote: > I've been trying to get my head round what is driving the > Voldemort supporters ? though from Harry's (or more generally > a Gryffindor) point of view `they went bad' might suffice, > it's not a very convincing (or interesting) argument in my opinion. > > Maybe all the Death Eaters were motivated by various individual > combinations of lust for power, desire to offset their own sense of > insignificance by aligning themselves to a powerful, directive > force, or destructive urges to wreak mayhem. But throughout the > books there's this constant emphasis on bloodlines, and while we do > geta reason why Riddle/Voldemort would hate Muggles, and hence > direct his movement that way, there also seems to a more general > prejudice (expressed most forcefully by the Malfoys), and I can't > really see where its roots might be. There have been comprehensive analysis of what exactly motivates DEs individually (Lucius' desire of power, for example. Others for cruelty, fun, peer presure, whatever). However, the *mass* of people who support Voldemort's actions (and there are always people who give support without actually participating directly) are probably motivated by fear. As you said: > I wouldn't (thankfully) claim to be an expert in genocidal > conflicts, but from what I do know they tend to be founded on an > irresolvable, deep-seated sense of either injustice or threat. To > give two examples if the former: I vividly remember discussing the > situation in the Balkans with a Serbian colleague about 8 years ago, > trying to understand what was going on, and he began by talking > about events that had occured 1000 years ago. Similarly, I've > spoken topeople bitterly embroiled on both sides of the Troubles in > Northern Ireland, and both sides had their litany of ills that the > other side had perpetrated. > > This is not the case at all in JKR's Wizarding world, where one > `side' (Muggles) is completely oblivious to the very > existence of the > other, so there is nothing to feel threatened or bitter about > (unless one makes the assumption that our inquisitions > and witch burnings were actually carried out against this Wizarding > community, rather than being a completely Muggle phenomenon. I > doubt this assumption ? there is nothing to suggest it in the books > (unless I have missed something) ? though OTOH there are very > good political/commercial reasons why JKR would avoid any such > implication) > > Chthonia There is no actual need for *both* sides fearing and hating the other. Hate, in this case, is a consequence of fear: if you fear something, you change your way of thinking so that you hate them, and that gives you the courage to fight against them. The next step is de-humanizing your adversary: once you manage to convince yourself that whatever it is, it's got no right to live, is much easier to commit atrocities agaisnt them. All this is, of course, wrong. The process to follow if you fear someone is to try and understand that fear and reach an agreement (something equivalent to mutual defense pacts, but aplied to social relations). Going back to the sides idea, there are cases where only one of the sides hates the other. The WW is one of such cases, since the muggles, as you point out, are unaware of the existance of a bigot group that hates them. This makes no difference for the bigot group, except it makes their attacks easier. The rest of your analysis is very good: in my view of canon, the fear of the pure bloods towards the muggles is very ancient (not quite 1000 years, but close enough): when the muggle population started to increase, dwarfing the wizard population, the wizards realized that, if the muggles ever wanted to destroy them, they would be in dire straits. No matter what advantage magic would give them in such a war, a disadvantage of 100 to 1 is almost always equivalent to total destruction. This fear is possibly behind the decision to hide - but in the "warrior culture" of the WW, some families would resent having to hide from the muggles. That sort of grudge can either disapear or grow, and in some cases it has grown indeed. Coupled with the fact that they feel they're better than muggles anyway (since they can do magic and the muggles cannot), the "purebloods" really feel that they are the ones that should be out in the open, with muggles hiding from them. Take into account that "old families" tend to have an egocentric streak, having to hide from inferiors is going to cause them something akin to physical pain. Not that it really matters, but for sake of completenes: were muggles really intending to destroy the WW? There is no proof that they ever took a rational approach against it, but it is entirely possible that the inquisition and the witch burnings were intended against wizards, inefective as they were (Harry writes an essay for History about the ineffectiveness of witch burning in PoA), so the wizards were right to hide. But there is a certain egg-and-chiken problem here: maybe the muggles realized that the wizards were going into hiding, and they didn't want people with such powers to fade out of view. In this sort of situations, if you dig enough, you find blame enough to go around. No-one's hands are ever totally clean. But, as I said, that was some 800 years ago, so it no longer matters, except to a few pig-headed "pure bloods". Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From dunphy_shane at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 13:05:42 2002 From: dunphy_shane at hotmail.com (shane dunphy) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:05:42 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape the alleged vampire Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47273 This has been an interesting thread, but I think that the premise that Snape is a member of the undead is inherently flawed. David wrote: >First some thematic stuff. Whatever he may be magibiologically, Snape is >not a *thematic* vampire. He doesn't drain anyone of anything. You only >have to think of the Dementors (metaphorical vampires) or Voldemort (both >literal, via Quirrell and the rebirthing potion, and metaphorical) to see >the difference. I have to agree. Snape is not a character that seems in any way attracted to "sucking the essence" from anyone. While vampires are attracted to life and those obviously full of it, Snape seems to be more attracted to the anaemic Malfoy. Another thought is, if Snape were a blood-sucker, wouldn't he be attempting to place himself in positions in the school where he may have potential access to blood - volunteering for Madame Pomfrey springs to mind ;-)...or maybe getting more involved in Quidditch, as a coach or ref would be another activity that would offer ample opportunities. It also occurred to me thinking about this issue, vamps are usually described as being beautiful, erotic, magnetic individuals, full of desire and longing. Snape seems to be if anything repressed and could hardly be described as being a sexually attractive individual (well, maybe in a Goth kind of way...). In the canon, Snape's diet is never really mentioned, other than that he appears at meal-times and feasts. Now, another aspect of vampire lore is that they tend not to indulge in mortal food-stuffs. If Snape wasn't eating, wouldn't someone notice? I imagine that Dumbledore would be deeply concerned if a member of his teaching faculty were appearing to be anorexic, and would probably organise an intervention. Shane. From wynnde1 at aol.com Wed Nov 27 13:33:44 2002 From: wynnde1 at aol.com (wynnde1 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 08:33:44 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does Snape Favour the Slytherins? (WAS Snape's Treatment of Message-ID: <16e.17b17681.2b1623b8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47274 Just a quick comment which occurred to me when reading this discussion Snape's treatment of Draco, > Audra wrote: > Snape's treatment of Draco as interpreted by Harry and others may just be > another misconception about him. We are led to think that Snape just > favors > the Slytherins and especially Draco just because Snape shares the belief > that > purebloods are superior and because Draco is from a prominent, wealthy, > pureblood family. > > Eloise responded: > The other way round, I would say. It is easy to *assume* that the reason he > > favours Draco and the Slytherins is because he shares the pureblood > superiority doctrine, but I cannot think of anywhere in canon where he > implies or demonstrates this. In fact, I don't think that anyone so close > to > and trusted by Dumbledore *could* embrace this doctrine. > > Now me: Actually, I'm not sure we can conclude that Snape does actually favour Draco *and* the Slytherins. I have a bit of canon that I noticed the other day in re-reading Philosopher's Stone which would seem to contradict this widely-held belief, and indicates that Snape is actually mean to just about all the students:" >From Chapter Eight (The Potion's Master): "Snape put them all into pairs and set them to mixing up a simple potion to cure boils. He swept around in his long black cloak, watching them weigh dried nettles and crush snake fangs, criticising almost everyone except Malfoy, whom he seemed to like." So it seems that he's *not* really favouring the Slytherins here - he dislikes them, as well. Sure, we see him take points from Gryffindor and not Slytherin, but the performance of his own house reflects upon him as much as his students. And I'm certainly not trying to argue that Snape *doesn't* hate Harry, which also could explain some of the heavy-handed treatment he receives from Snape. But that's not the same as favouring the Slytherins - not any more than, say, McGonagall favours the Gryffindors. She wants her House to win at Quidditch, and managed to bend the school rules so that Harry could have his broom in first year, after all. And, as Eloise pointed out, Hermione has a better grade in the class than Draco, so we don't have any evidence that Snape is tampering with grades in the favour of the Slytherins. Our first canon mention of Snape favouring the students comes from Ron earlier in the same chapter I quoted earlier ("They say he always favours them"), and strikes me as being of the same flavour as Percy's statement that Snape wants the DADA job - often, something that "everyone" knows to be true is just the opposite, especially when talking about the opinions of school-aged children! I'm sure others will be able to find lots of examples to dispute this . . . I can't wait to read them! :-) Wendy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cathywalker75 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 27 14:13:29 2002 From: cathywalker75 at yahoo.co.uk (cathywalker75) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:13:29 -0000 Subject: Fudge and Curse Scars Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47275 I've checked through messages to the list and haven't seen any reference to Fudge and his comment about curse scars in GoF, but this is my first posting- apologies if this has already been discussed. In Fudge and Dumbledore's discussion in chapter 36 (page 613 UK edition), Fudge challenges Dumbledore about the pains Harry experienced in his scar. Dumbledore expalins, "...'Harry is as sane as you or I. That scar upon his forehead has not addled his brains. I believe it hurts him when Lord Voldemort is close by, or feeling particularly murderous.' " (p.612) It is the subsequent passage that has me puzzled, "Fudge had taken half a step back from Dumbledore, but he looked no less stubbord. 'You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell before...'" (p613, UK edition) Does anyone have any ideas as to who's curse scar he is referring to? Why does Dumblesore's information about Harry's scar make Fudge take a step back, what event was this other scar associated with? How common are curse scars? Harry is the only person to have survived the adava kedava curse, so do scars from different (unforgivable?) curses have different properties? Are there connections between the ways in which curse scars and the Dark Mark operate (Harry and Lord V are linked by the curse that failed, Death Eaters are linked to Lord V by the Dark Mark)? Any ideas? Cathy From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Nov 27 15:06:37 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:06:37 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: TriWizard Cup as Portkey References: Message-ID: <3DE4DF7D.28A60CA6@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47276 Chuck wrote: > > Ancient thread, new poster. > > This struck me as simply bad writing. There was no reason for Harry > to even be in the Tournament. To get him to touch the Cup? That's > it? And the whole, very specific setup at the beginning about how > time specific portkeys are. Strikes me that after 650 pages, JKR > just plain forgot. > > And it was an easy knot to wriggle out of. All that needed tobe > explained was that the spell to bring back Voldy needed the blood of > a wizard of some sort of experience level. Voldy had a deadline > (sorry for the pun) that he had to return within a certain timeframe > or he would never be able to. Since Harry didn't take OWLs yet, the > Tournament would serve to boost his abilities. > > The cup as portkey could easily have been handled by having the > tournament end in the maze followed by a prescheduled awards > ceremony, at which the cup was to be awarded. Harry wins. Party. > Ceremony. Cup handed to Harry. He holds it over his head. Poof! > > Tangles resovled. > > I think it's just poor writing. > > Chuck > Are you sure ALL portkeys are time specific or that in the case of the world cup, they were only set for at a certain time to keep groups from arriving at exactly the same time with messy results? Might be that there are different types of portkeys that are not time specific at all and people reading the books only assumed it was. It doesn't actually state that ALL portkeys are set up the same way.. Just because Arther states the portkeys used for the Quiddich Cup are "objects that are used to transport wizards from one spot to another at a prearranged time" doesn't mean there are NOT other kinds of portkeys or that you can't set one that doesn't have a time set in it. We ARE talking about magic here, so the darn portkey could do anything its maker set it up to do, if you think about it. What if someone set one up so that it didn't teleport the person, but when triggered, transformed them instead? (Don't let Fred and George get that idea!) Seems that magic is in fact pretty flexible or anything new would be imposible to make, such as canery creams and ton tongue toffy.. I think its just poor assumption on the part of some readers to think that magic is so tightly limited that you can't leave a timer off a portkey. Jazmyn From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 15:51:52 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:51:52 -0000 Subject: Fudge and Curse Scars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47277 Cathy (cathywalker75) wrote: > In Fudge and Dumbledore's discussion in chapter 36 (page 613 UK > edition), Fudge challenges Dumbledore about the pains Harry > experienced in his scar. Dumbledore explains, > > "...'Harry is as sane as you or I. That scar upon his forehead has > not addled his brains. I believe it hurts him when Lord Voldemort > is close by, or feeling particularly murderous.' " (p.612) > > It is the subsequent passage that has me puzzled, > > "Fudge had taken half a step back from Dumbledore, but he looked no > less stubborn. 'You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a > curse scar acting as an alarm bell before...'" (p. 613, UK edition) > > Does anyone have any ideas as to who's curse scar he is referring > to? Why does Dumblesore's information about Harry's scar make Fudge > take a step back, what event was this other scar associated with? > > How common are curse scars? Harry is the only person to have > survived the adava kedava curse, so do scars from different > (unforgivable?) curses have different properties? Are there > connections between the ways in which curse scars and the Dark Mark > operate (Harry and Lord V are linked by the curse that failed, > Death Eaters are linked to Lord V by the Dark Mark)? Now me: Welcome, Cathy! The only other scar that I can recall being mentioned so far in the series is the one that Dumbledore references in PS/SS that's above his left knee and resembles a map of the London Underground. Whether this is a curse scar is unknown, and I can't recall any reference to curse scars other than Harry's. I don't really envision the Dark Mark as a scar - it strikes me as more of a branding (like cattle are branded) than a scarring. I don't think Fudge is thinking of any particular curse scar when he makes the comment you've quoted above - I interpreted his statement as more of a generalized observation of the working of curse scars. Harry's scar is obviously different than your average, run-of-the- mill curse scar, so it operates differently. I think the reason Fudge steps back after Dumbledore makes the comment you've quoted above is because Dumbledore uses Voldemort's name and Fudge (the complete coward that he is, IMO) is fearfully afraid of "the name." ~Phyllis From mpachuta at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 14:42:36 2002 From: mpachuta at hotmail.com (Mike Pachuta) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:42:36 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and the Malfoys (was: Re: Snape and the Potters) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47278 Audra1976 at aol.com wrote: >Regarding Lucius Malfoy, if he didn't know that Snape left the DE's >for certain, then he wouldn't be sure if Voldemort was referring to >him when he said, "he will be killed, of course," but he's sure to find >out. Now me: I'm a little new, and I'm not sure if this has already been said, but if Dumbledore has testified to the fact that Snape was acting as a double agent in a public forum, wouldn't most of the adults in the WW know that about him? How would Lucius, who obviously knows the inner-workings of the Ministry, not be privy to this information about Snape? Is there any canon referencing the relationship between Snape and Lucius other than from Draco's mouth? I can't recall a scene in which these two men appear together. Maybe Draco telling Snape that his father would appoint him headmaster was just a student trying to suck up to his favorite teacher. I'm really looking forward to hearing some thoughts on this... Mike _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 14:47:23 2002 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:47:23 -0000 Subject: Fudge and Curse Scars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47279 > "Fudge had taken half a step back from Dumbledore, but he looked no > less stubbord. 'You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a > curse scar acting as an alarm bell before...'" (p613, UK edition) You know, I actually read that last night, and I took as a typo...I thought he was saying...but I've NEVER heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm beel before.... Now, I am wondering if it is a typo or not.... Jacqui From ashfae at technicaldetails.org Wed Nov 27 15:14:03 2002 From: ashfae at technicaldetails.org (Ashfae) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 08:14:03 -0700 (MST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge and Curse Scars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47280 > From: cathywalker75 > > In Fudge and Dumbledore's discussion in chapter 36 (page 613 UK > edition), Fudge challenges Dumbledore about the pains Harry > experienced in his scar. Dumbledore expalins, > > "...'Harry is as sane as you or I. That scar upon his forehead has > not addled his brains. I believe it hurts him when Lord Voldemort is > close by, or feeling particularly murderous.' " (p.612) > > It is the subsequent passage that has me puzzled, > > "Fudge had taken half a step back from Dumbledore, but he looked no > less stubbord. 'You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a > curse scar acting as an alarm bell before...'" (p613, UK edition) > > Does anyone have any ideas as to who's curse scar he is referring > to? Why does Dumblesore's information about Harry's scar make Fudge > take a step back, what event was this other scar associated with? I would surmise that this was an error, as it's been fixed in my edition of the book to read: "You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've never heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell before..." (p706, US edition) Ashfae From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 16:00:35 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:00:35 -0000 Subject: Typographical Error on Goblet of Fire In-Reply-To: <20021127033959.14222.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47281 mimi (mimian16) wrote: > I would just like to share that the hardbound book of Goblet of > Fire that I have has a typo error on it. On page 291, last line, > Harry's letter to Sirius reads: "...I don't who put my name..." I > assumed it should read "... I don't know who put my name..." Now me: Welcome, Mimi! This looks like just a US editing problem - the UK version (Ch. 18) reads: "I don't know who put my name in the Goblet of Fire, because I didn't." ~Phyllis From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 15:11:12 2002 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:11:12 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47282 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jacqui" wrote: > I thought that he could have made the excuse that he was at Hogwarts > > when the summons came, and according to Hermione, one CAN'T > apparate > > or disapparate at Hogwarts. > > > > Wanda > > > Personally, I think that is a very valid point. It would have been > impossible for Snape to disapparate from Hogwarts, giving him a very > good excuse on why he didn't show up... > > Another question I have is....Why didn't "Mad-Eye" go to V. like > everyone else? Was is because he couldn't disapparate, or was Crouch > still pretending? What I don't get is this...if Crouch new that > Harry had already gone to V. why didn't he follow? There is no way > that he knew Harry was going to beat V. and make his way back. So > why did he stick around? Why didn't he join the DE's? Good question. My guess, which has been suggested before, is that Voldemort was planning to have a small invasion of the Hogwarts grounds, post-rebirthing, to take Dumbledore et al by surprise. Having a supposed top-notch Auror suddenly turn and attack Dumbledore when they arrived would be a nice way to instill a lot of panic. aja_1991, who's still wondering if V knows Barty Jr. received a show of affection from a Dementor, and how that lack of knowledge might help Albus and the "old crowd" From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Nov 27 15:22:00 2002 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:22:00 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47283 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jacqui" wrote: > Another question I have is....Why didn't "Mad-Eye" go to V. like > everyone else? Was is because he couldn't disapparate, or was Crouch > still pretending? I hadn't thought of that - are we really sure that Crouch actually IS a DE? I mean, just going by the timeline, if he was 18 when he was tried, how old would he have been when V. fell? Sixteen? That's just very young, it seems to me, to be admitted to such an elite group. The DE always seemed to me to be like Hitler's inner circle - his oldest friends, whose loyalty had been proven - the sort of people who'd have been in the Bunker at the end. A boy still at school would have difficulty doing anything that would get him noticed. That doesn't mean he couldn't have been on V.'s side, and working for him - just like the Nazis, I assume there must have been different levels of access to V., and people would probably be "promoted" to DE after they'd proven themselves. (Makes me wonder, too, what Snape did to join the elite, since he wasn't much older than Crouch.) Wanda From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Nov 27 15:51:10 2002 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:51:10 -0000 Subject: Why do 'purebloods' hate Muggles? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47284 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "chthonia9" wrote: > I've been trying to get my head round what is driving the > Voldemort supporters ? though from Harry's (or more generally > a > Gryffindor) point of view `they went bad' might suffice, > it's not a > very convincing (or interesting) argument in my opinion. > I wouldn't (thankfully) claim to be an expert in genocidal > conflicts, but from what I do know they tend to be founded on an > irresolvable, deep-seated sense of either injustice or threat. To > give two examples if the former: I vividly remember discussing the > situation in the Balkans with a Serbian colleague about 8 years ago, > trying to understand what was going on, and he began by talking about > events that had occured 1000 years ago. Similarly, I've spoken to > people bitterly embroiled on both sides of the Troubles in Northern > Ireland, and both sides had their litany of ills that the other side > had perpetrated. It is an interesting question, and I would venture to make a parallel with the current terrorist campaign - V. and his followers, after all, did seem more like terrorists than anything else. It's not clear to me that they were on the point of seizing control of the "government" of the WW, or what that would even look like. But they were creating a lot of instability, fear and destruction. Like the Serbs, the Irish and now the Islamicist terrorists, there seems to be among the pureblood wizards a feeling of some lost golden age, when things were properly ordered, i.e., when they had the superior position they deserve. The wizards would have to admit that the "rot" set in very early, while Salazar Slytherin was still alive, but fanatics can usually take those problems in stride. I think you're right when you point out that families like the Malfoys see it as unjust that they should have to live in hiding from their inferiors, and to have these same inferiors also encroaching on their world and being treated as equals is just intolerable. I don't know just what the eventual consequences of a Voldemort triumph would have been - war on the Muggle world? Probably not, or at least not at first. It probably would have been an "ethnic cleansing" of the halfbloods and mudbloods, and down the road, who knows? Maybe there was some thought that an all pureblood wizardry would eventually become strong enough to conquer the Muggle world. Wanda > From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Wed Nov 27 16:22:13 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:22:13 -0000 Subject: Both Parents Work? Where's the Canon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47285 Attack of the fanon, is it? As Ellen states, there is no reference to either Lily or James's professions in canon. I think it's highly unlikely that either was an auror, myself. The idea that Mrs. Longbottom was an auror is not just fanon, though, it's dead wrong! Crouch describes her as an auror's wife in the Pensieve scene, meaning she most definitely was not an auror. As for Mrs. Lestrange, being a member of a terrorist organization is not my definition of working outside the home. I wouldn't say that both the Lestranges had jobs, if they devoted their entire time to Voldemort. :-) Meanwhile, Hermione's mother is, as noted, a Muggle, which tells us absolutely nothing about the wizarding world. We have no information about any of the working witches in the books being married (though some of them are said to be single: Bertha Jorkins, Rita Skeeter). Molly Weasley stays at home. Narcissa Malfoy probably doesn't work, but I don't think Lucius does either, in the sense of a day-to-day office job. And, meanwhile we have Mrs. Fudge, Mrs. Crouch, and Mrs. Diggory mentioned, with no indication of what they do, except that they're mentioned in connection with their husbands who work at the Ministry. No, no evidence for any assertions here, I don't think. Eileen --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ellen & John Anglin" wrote: > Hmmmmmm, I dont think so. > > I don't believe that we are sure that anyone besides Nevilles > was an auror. And, as far as I know, Both James and Lilies > professions, as well as where they got their money have yet to be > revealed. > > The Idea that Lily and Mrs Longbottom were Aurors a common fanon > idea tho, so that may be where you have seen it. > See; > > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/lily.html > > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/longbottom.html > > > > Ellen, The Pottering Beekeeper > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Audra1976 at a... wrote: > > Me: > > Lily Potter and Mrs. Longbottom were both stated to be Aurors, > weren't they? Molly Weasley is the only stay-at-home mom we hear > of. Narcissa Malfoy probably doesn't work either, but that's only > speculation, not stated in canon. By the same token, I can't imagine > Mrs. LeStrange was a little housewife. If I'm right, that means > that while we don't get much information about couples, we know for > sure of more working wives than not. > > > > Audra From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 16:28:19 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:28:19 -0000 Subject: Fudge and Curse Scars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47286 Ashfae wrote: > I would surmise that this was an error, as it's been fixed in my > edition of the book to read: > > "You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've never heard of a curse > scar acting as an alarm bell before..." (p706, US edition) Now me: I hadn't picked up on the omission of the word "never" when I initially posted, but I now see that it's missing from my UK version. The US version must be correct, as it's clear from the context that Fudge is disagreeing with Dumbledore on this point. In opening my book to check on this, I also found another explanation to Fudge's stepping back - before Dumbledore makes the comment about Harry's sanity, he takes a step towards Fudge. Fudge is likely stepping back because he feels as if Dumbledore has invaded his personal space comfort zone. ~Phyllis From michelle.pagan at colorado.edu Wed Nov 27 16:16:49 2002 From: michelle.pagan at colorado.edu (PAGAN MICHELLE I) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:16:49 -0700 (MST) Subject: Lucius and Draco (was: Snape's treatment of Draco) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47287 Person Man wrote: > What I don't understand is why Lucius lets his son anywhere near > Snape, assuming that Lucius knows that Snape is a traitor and was a > spy against his cause (which all would have been revealed through > the trials of the DE's after the fall of Voldemort). Wouldn't he > have used his influence as a School Governor to make sure Snape > never even got the job in the first place? You'ld think that Lucius > would be afraid Snape would do what was mentioned above to his son. I'm not sure Lucius cares too much about his son. He reminds me of the Durselys of the WW. (They hate wizards, he hates Muggles --neither of them care to much about the boy [Harry, Draco]). Upon starting to reread SS/PS for the umpteenth time, I am struck by how little magic Draco knows when he enters Hogwarts. In Borgin's shop (excuse me if I've missed the name) in CoS, he enters with Draco, and it seems as if the boy has been there plenty of times before (i.e. there is no surprise on his part). One might think that all these years Lucius might have been instructing his son on the finer points of dark magic (how this would fit in with the ban on underage magic, I'm not sure, but I'm equally sure Lucius could find a way if he'd wanted). Draco knows about his father's ventures (GoF), which leads me to believe that if Lucius suspected *anything* about Snape, Draco would know as well. I don't think Lucius would be afraid anything would happen to his son, but he'd be bent on publicizing to the DEs who Snape really is. Likewise though, since Snape would know all about Lucius, I'd venture to say he sees something different in Draco. While I could easily agree he might just be promulgating that he is a true Slytherin through and through, Snape seems to often go above and beyond the teacher figure with Draco. Polaris (a newbie) From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 14:28:32 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:28:32 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's treatment of Draco Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47288 ">What I don't understand is why Lucius lets his son anywhere near >Snape, assuming that Lucius knows that Snape is a traitor and was a >spy against his cause (which all would have been revealed through >the trials of the DE's after the fall of Voldemort)." - Person Man I have wondered why he lets him get anywhere near Dumbledore, who's a very 'corrupting influence or Harry potter himself. Did he not want to send Draco to Dumstrang or was that just Draco's boasting? Snape does seem to favour draco, though if Hermione does beat him (draco) in potions then its just him indulging himself rather than blatant favotism. Why, of course is a harder question. I believe that Snape is A) trying to weaken Draco in some way and B) Indulging his dislike of Harry by praising his opponent. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Nov 27 15:15:50 2002 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:15:50 -0000 Subject: How good a student is Draco? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47289 I was wondering if Snape favours Draco purely because of his family connections, or because he sees in him a resemblance to himself at that age, or if perhaps he might reasonably be good at Potions? I know at the beginning of CoS Lucius Malfoy makes a remark about Draco having poor grades, but I wonder if we can really take that at face value. Lucius is one of those cold, punishing fathers, and he may be the sort who would be dissatisfied no matter what Draco does. He mentions that Hermione beat Draco on every exam, but compared to Hermione, practically anyone would come off badly. Are there any other passages that give a clear idea of whether Draco is a good or a poor student? Wanda From rachelday at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Nov 27 15:58:33 2002 From: rachelday at blueyonder.co.uk (rachel day) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:58:33 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge and Curse Scars References: Message-ID: <003301c2962d$d7188bc0$b11d1f3e@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 47290 cathywalker75 wrote: >"Fudge had taken half a step back from >Dumbledore, but he looked no >less stubborn. 'You'll forgive me, >Dumbledore, but I've heard of a >curse scar acting as an alarm bell >before...'" (p613, UK edition) Hey good eye! I've never noticed that before, I'd always read it as "I've _never_ heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell before." I thought Fudge was refuting Dumbledore, by basically saying it was nonsense, that he'd never heard of such a thing. But now I'm not so sure. Maybe its a typo. It's been said before that the pressure put on JKR to finish GoF to meet the publishers deadlines had caused more typos than had been in previous books. >Does anyone have any ideas as to who's >curse scar he is referring >to? Oooh! You've set a spark off now! I don't know what to think. I seem to remember that Harry's scar was the first of its kind? (Well, it is really, he's the only one to have ever survived AK). IIRC, he was worried about his scar once, but then thought that he couldn't really look up if that was how curse scars acted because it wasn't likely to be in 'Common Magical Ailments and Afflictions'. (sorry, I don't have my books with me - I'm not even sure what book it is, PoA? Can anyone find a reference?) The only other person with a scar that comes to mind is Dumbledore, "I have a scar on my left knee that is an exact map of the London Underground" (not an exact quote, like I said, I don't have my books with me). Then of course there's Moody; "Every inch of visible skin seemed to be scarred" "...shook a long mane of grizzled grey hair out of his twisted and scarred face..." Both are well known for fighting the dark arts (the real Moody anyway) maybe these are the curse scars Fudge is referring to? (also, IIRC, we *are* told that Moody's are curse scars aren't we? Hope that's some help, Rachel Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdumas at kingwoodcable.com Wed Nov 27 17:24:37 2002 From: jdumas at kingwoodcable.com (Katze) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:24:37 -0600 Subject: magic late in life Message-ID: <3DE4FFD5.5010008@kingwoodcable.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47291 (Note: I sent this out yesterday but was having trouble with my server. I haven't seen it show up on the list yet so I'm resending it. Sorry if this is a duplicate.) I know we've talked about the person doing magic late in life, and many people seem to think that it might be one of the Durselys. I think it might be, but I think the Dursely will be Aunt Marge. I haven't re-read GoF, so I don't remember if there are any incidents with Aunt Marge - so I'm going based on POA because that's the book I have in front of me. In PoA, Aunt Marge breaks her cup, and gets blown up. We think it's Harry doing it because of Aunt Marge's jabs, but is it really? Rowling is very good at deflecting the truth of the matter, so let's consider what has to happen for Marge to actually do magic without us noticing. There are two converups. 1. That she broke a glass the same way at the Colonel's house. This makes us believe that she just has a strong grip like she says, but we don't know the circumstances why the glass broke at his house. A glass could actually break without any magic at all. 2. Underage magic. In order for us to believe that Harry actually blew up Aunt Marge, there would have to be another instance of underage magic to deflect the Ministry's position on Harry's magic (they didn't warn him like they did in CoS, but rather pawned it off as a mistake). Had Harry not used magic to fling open the door, would there have been any warning/forgiveness on the Ministry's part? Fudge does say that they forgive him for blwoing up his Aunt, but is that what they think he did, or do they just asssume that the blow incident was the magic and not the closet door? Also - Aunt Marge was extremely angry right before she got blown up - so I wonder if it was her own anger that caused it. Does this make sense? Your thoughts? Katze From michelle.pagan at colorado.edu Wed Nov 27 16:33:58 2002 From: michelle.pagan at colorado.edu (PAGAN MICHELLE I) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:33:58 -0700 (MST) Subject: Why are *all* Muggles so tolerant of their wizard children? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47292 One thing I've never been able to understand about this entire world dreamed up by JKR...the WW goes to such lengths to hide themselves, and yet, wizards can be born to all-muggle families (i.e. Hermione Granger). Now while her parents were apparently just fine with her being a witch (just like Lily's parents were *so* happy -- SS/PS), aren't there ever people like the Durselys, who, if they had a son (their own blood, as opposed to their nephew) who was a witch, would completely go beserk and hate him forever, then make it their life's work to inform the world of these nutters? Granted, people might think they were insane (much like those who talk about UFO sightings), but for every one of those like the Durselys who are afraid of what people would think of them, I'd bet there are people who don't care and who are so intolerant that they'd find a way to inform the general public...perhaps with proof like the invite letter to Hogwarts? I just can't believe that every Muggle with a wizard child is tolerant and even happy about it. Polaris From sgarfio at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 17:50:35 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:50:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why do 'purebloods' hate Muggles? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021127175035.19733.qmail@web21410.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47293 Hopefully I can get this out before 20 other people post the same ideas . Chthonia wrote: > I wouldn't (thankfully) claim to be an expert in genocidal > conflicts, but from what I do know they tend to be founded on an > irresolvable, deep-seated sense of either injustice or threat. To > give two examples if the former: I vividly remember discussing the > situation in the Balkans with a Serbian colleague about 8 years ago, > trying to understand what was going on, and he began by talking about > events that had occured 1000 years ago. Similarly, I've spoken to > people bitterly embroiled on both sides of the Troubles in Northern > Ireland, and both sides had their litany of ills that the other side > had perpetrated. > > This is not the case at all in JKR's Wizardingworld, I would tend to disagree that this is not the case in the Potterverse. As Grey Wolf has already stated, there was conflict several hundred years ago between Wizards and Muggles. I think the witch burnings and the Inquisition *did* greatly affect the WW. The Wizards were "superior" to the Muggles, and yet they were oppressed. They were oppressed out of fear on the part of the Muggles, and I think the Wizards *knew* that the Muggles feared them, which would cause this particular conflict to be especially stressful for both sides. And as Grey Wolf also pointed out, it is in the Wizarding history books, with a pro-witch spin, I would add. I would also like to add that there is a new threat today against the Wizards: Muggle technology. As long as magic gave the Wizards power over the Muggles, they were not as threatened, and could live in a separate society alongside the Muggles. By maintaining the separation, the threat died down as Muggles relegated witches to the realm of folklore. Now, the Muggles can imitate a lot of magic with machines. Therefore, a Muggle-born Wizard would have the advantage of *both* magic *and* technology, creating a renewed threat, since Muggle-born Wizards are "infiltrating" the Wizarding World. Chthonia continued: > 2) There is no dilution of wizarding abilities by breeding > out/in - quite the reverse. So the purebloods can't exactly > complain that magic itself, say, is under threat. Very true, but as you say, prejudice is, by definition, illogical. Also, as I stated above, the introduction of people from the Muggle world into Wizarding society does create a threat, as Muggle-born Wizards have both magic and technology at their disposal. > 3) The prejudice only seems to apply to parents, not > grandparents (as has been discussed on the list before, I think) Eh??! Not sure why this is true. Maybe because if your parents are the ones who are Muggle-born, they are already part of Wizarding society and therefore you are not causing a new contact to be made with the Muggles. > 4) There is no physically observable difference (that we know > of) between pureblood/halfblood/Muggle, so people aren't going to > immediately look at someone and get a sense of `otherness' > onto which they can project all the qualities they perceive as > undesirable. It may not be as obvious as the difference between, say, blacks and whites; in fact, it may not be a visible difference at all. Perhaps a magical person can "sense" another person's magical ability or lack thereof. This is pure speculation, of course, but the point I'm trying to make is that sometimes differences are more subtle than what people in racially integrated societies perceive. > 5) Nor is there a cultural difference - once you're a wizard, > you're part of the wizarding world, so there isn't a clash of > values, customs, beliefs etc Again, Muggle-borns and half-bloods represent a new contact between the two worlds, and the Death Eaters may perceive that as a threat. Once you're a Wizard *born of Wizarding parents* you are indeed part of the Wizarding World, but if you're a Wizard *born of Muggle parent(s)*, your Muggle relations are made aware of the Wizarding World, creating the potential for a clash. This may be seen as an unacceptable risk for a DE. > 6) There doesn't seem to be any economic threat to the > purebloods, who seem to be quite comfortably populating the higher > echelons of society. I agree. Wizards even have their own currency; the two economies appear to be pretty isolated. > 7) The prejudice doesn't appear to be widespread - > many `pureblood' families (Weasleys, Longbottoms?) seem quite > relaxed about it. There's no need to be prejudiced if you don't perceive a threat. If you look at the Nazis, most of them didn't see the Jews as a threat until Hitler started spouting off about it. Hitler used propaganda and mis-education about the Jews to incite people to hate, most of whom had probably never given Jews a second thought. There have been many parallels drawn between Hitler and Voldemort. All it would take to go from blissful naivete to Death Eater is for a charismatic person like Tom Riddle to pretend to be your buddy and then start feeding you scary stories about Muggles and how they're threatening your way of life. > Is JKR trying to make the point that prejudice is stupid and wrong so > clearly that she's glossing over the ugly and real reasons for > such behaviours taking root? Yes, I think she is. I also suspect that only adult readers (or mature older children) would ponder this enough to catch the lack of reasons you have presented here. It's easy for people on this list to lose sight of the fact that these books are for *children* (at least that's the way they're marketed ), and putting forth such brutal truths in an obvious way could make them unsuitable for children. For children, showing that prejudice is stupid and wrong is probably enough. We as adults understand that prejudice usually has a basis in something, and therefore we go looking for the basis for this particular brand of prejudice. Telling kids that prejudice is based on real-life events may be too much for them; after all, if prejudice is founded, then why is it wrong? Adults can make the distinction between "founded" and "justified". We also have the background knowledge of world history to fill in the gaps, so we don't need JKR to spell it out for us. I see this as evidence of the multi-level meanings that make this series so wonderful. I wish it had come along 20 years ago so I could have the opportunity to read them from a child's perspective and again as an adult. I do get the opportunity to see them through my children's eyes, but it's not quite the same. > Again, if I've inadvertently offended anyone, please accept my > apologies. > > Chthonia Ditto for me. I came off moderated status this week, so I don't even have my List Elf to watch out for me anymore . -Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Wed Nov 27 17:59:08 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:59:08 -0000 Subject: Crouch Jr.'s Early Death Eating Career (WAS:Re: Snape and the Potters) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47294 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > I hadn't thought of that - are we really sure that Crouch actually > IS a DE? I mean, just going by the timeline, if he was 18 when he > was tried, how old would he have been when V. fell? Sixteen? > That's just very young, it seems to me, to be admitted to such an > elite group. The DE always seemed to me to be like Hitler's inner > circle - his oldest friends, whose loyalty had been proven - the > sort of people who'd have been in the Bunker at the end. A boy > still at school would have difficulty doing anything that would get > him noticed. That doesn't mean he couldn't have been on V.'s side, > and working for him - just like the Nazis, I assume there must have > been different levels of access to V., and people would probably > be "promoted" to DE after they'd proven themselves. (Makes me > wonder, too, what Snape did to join the elite, since he wasn't much > older than Crouch.) Barty Crouch Jr., according to Sirius couldn't have been "more than nineteen" at the time of his trial, which, as has been pointed out on the list, suggests Sirius knew Crouch's year at Hogwarts but not his exact birthday. Angelina and Cedric turn seventeen early in their sixth year, while Harry will only turn seventeen in August before his seventh year. This means that we know how long Crouch was out of school before the Longbottom incident: a year at the most, since Crouch would have been 18- in his seventh year, as far as Sirius knows. Voldemort fell October 31, 1981. How long after that did the Longbottom incident take place? Long enough for people to begin to feel safe, for the trials hinted at in "Padfoot Returns" and the Pensieve scene to take place. Sometime in 1982, I would think. If that's correct, Crouch would have left Hogwarts in June of 1981. As to whether he was a Death Eater, the evidence I see there is that there seems to be a place for him in the circle at the end of GoF. He is quite young to be admitted to the elite group, but I actually find that very understandable, since I doubt he was admitted for his own capabilities. He was admitted because he was Crouch's son, and a useful weapon in reserve on many levels. I don't think he did much of anything, or was asked to do anything. I can see him now whining, "But can't I actually take part in some sneak attack or something?" One of the funniest lines in GoF (funny because it's so awful) is "You planned to restore He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named to power, and to resume the lives of violence you presumably led while he was strong," because I really doubt Barty was sneaking out of Hogwarts nights and leading a life of violence, or that he had much opportunity for that life of violence when at home either. I think he got the Dark Mark and that was about it. Snape, Avery, Wilkes, Rosier, and the Lestranges were also appallingly young, and I too, would like to know how they got into the inner circle. Eileen, who is feeling rather sad about Crouch Jr. ever since she realized writing "Cindy Crouch and the Pensieve Four," that Barty was her age when he was taken away to Azkaban From robgonz0 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 18:03:52 2002 From: robgonz0 at yahoo.com (Robert Gonzalez) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:03:52 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] magic late in life References: <3DE4FFD5.5010008@kingwoodcable.com> Message-ID: <002d01c2963f$58f2ac00$18fea8c0@WorkGroup> No: HPFGUIDX 47295 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Katze" > 2. Underage magic. In order for us to believe that Harry actually blew up Aunt > Marge, there would have to be another instance of underage magic to deflect the > Ministry's position on Harry's magic (they didn't warn him like they did in CoS, > but rather pawned it off as a mistake). Had Harry not used magic to fling open > the door, would there have been any warning/forgiveness on the Ministry's part? > Fudge does say that they forgive him for blwoing up his Aunt, but is that what > they think he did, or do they just asssume that the blow incident was the magic > and not the closet door? Also - Aunt Marge was extremely angry right before she > got blown up - so I wonder if it was her own anger that caused it. I'm not saying you couldn't be right here. After all it is just a theory and theories are all correct until proven otherwise. I just wanted to point out that in CoS Harry was sent a warning for underage magic because of something Dobby did. The MM just detected the use of a Hover Charm in the place where he lived and assumed it was Harry. Unless intelligence has gotten better one would think he would again recieve a similar warning even if Marge did do it herself. He did leave in a hurry though so no telling. One also wonders if it was Harry that flung open the door to the cupboard under the stairs or was someone helping him escape? Rob From dileas at rogers.com Wed Nov 27 17:58:04 2002 From: dileas at rogers.com (mmgardin) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:58:04 -0000 Subject: Dementors' Kiss Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47296 I have a small theory I'd like to put forth regarding Neville's parents. I've felt since first reading the HP books, that we had already met someone who had been given the Dementors' Kiss. I know that JKR loves to foreshadow things and the way she kept mentioning how the Kiss doesn't actually kill someone ? just robs them of their soul, screamed foreshadowing to me. For the longest time, I thought it was Snape who had been Kissed but his sense of self is in no danger of being forgotten and his memory is as good as ever. I've also always liked the idea that Neville's memory is so shoddy because of the requisite memory charms placed on him so he doesn't relive the Cruciatus curse/torture session of his parents. If these alleged memory charms to erase the Cruciatus memories were placed by an experienced wizard they have been largely ineffectual. Neville is still bothered by events that remind him of the torture which, I believe he probably witnessed. GOF c14, p.190 `Stop it!' Hermione said shrilly. Harry looked around at her. She was looking, not at the spider, but at Neville, and Harry, following her gaze, saw that Neville's hands were clenched upon the desk in front of him, his knuckles white, his eyes wide and horrified. GOF c21, p.319 `It was the someone being tortured!' said Neville, who had gone very white, and spilled sausage rolls over the floor. `You're going to have to fight the Cruciatus curse!' In modification then, of Neville's poor memory due to memory charms, I think the memory that was blocked was of his parents receiving the Dementors' Kiss. POA The Patronus c. 12, p.183 `They call it the Dementors' Kiss,' said Lupin, with a slightly twisted smile. `It's what Dementors do to those they wish to destroy utterly. I suppose there must be some kind of mouth under there, because they clamp their jaws upon the mouth of the victim and ? and suck out his soul.' Harry accidentally spat out a bit of Butterbeer. `What ? they kill -?' `Oh, no,' said Lupin. `Much worse than that. You can exist without your soul, you know, as long as your brain and heart are still working. But you'll have no sense of self any more, no memory, no anything. There's no chance at all of recovery. You'll just ? exist. As an empty shell. And your soul is gone for ever lost.' GOF The Pensieve c. 30, p.523 `Yes, they were talking about Neville's parents,' said Dumbledore. `His father, Frank, was an auror just like Professor Moody. He and his wife were tortured for information about Voldemort's whereabouts after he lost his powers, as you heard.' `So they're dead?' said Harry quietly. `No,' said Dumbledore, his voice full of a bitterness Harry had never heard there before, `they are insane. They are both in St Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries. I believe Neville visits them, with his grandmother, during the holidays. They do not recognize him.' We know that the Dementors' Kiss robs a person of their soul and it seems by Dumbledore's comment on the mental state of Neville's parents that Frank and his wife do in fact match up with what I believe someone who has received the Kiss would be like. Also, we know that the Dementors are/were Voldemort's close allies and surely Barty Crouch Jr. would be able to persuade them to deliver the Kiss, maybe to be cruel or maybe to cover up the torture session. I realize that for this to actually be a theory, it should be relevant but I haven't quite worked out how this will fit into the grander scheme of the story. Speculating, I'm guessing that the Death Eaters use the Dementors as a way to quiet their victims. Maybe the Longbottoms had crucial information that the DE's couldn't risk coming to light. If you believe that Fudge is evil, his actions in quickly summoning the nearest Dementor to Kiss Crouch Jr are congruent with someone not wanting Crouch Jr telling too much about the Dark Lord. Or perhaps it could be as simple as whenever a DE is responsible for arranging a Kiss, they get some sort of bonus from Voldemort (after all, we have been introduced to other ways to silence your enemies). One last thought that has also bothered me from the beginning ? JKR loves to give her characters interesting and telling names. Why then, has she used the name Frank twice (Frank Longbottom and Frank Bryce)? I've racked my brain trying to elucidate a connection between those 2 characters and come up with nothing. I'd love to hear any ideas anyone has on this. Cheers, Marcia From potter76 at libero.it Wed Nov 27 18:28:27 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:28:27 +0100 (ora solare Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Typographical Error on Goblet of Fire References: Message-ID: <3DE50ECB.000006.41359@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 47297 ~Phyllis This looks like just a US editing problem - the UK version (Ch. 18) reads: "I don't know who put my name in the Goblet of Fire, because I didn't." Me: I don't think it is, I have a Uk 10th edition and it shows the same typo Mimi spotted ( My compliments I didn't notice it till the moment you mentioned it!). I guess it was corrected in later editions. R. From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Nov 27 18:41:10 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:41:10 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge and Curse Scars Message-ID: <129.1c16b78d.2b166bc6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47298 Rachel: > cathywalker75 wrote: > > >"Fudge had taken half a step back from >Dumbledore, but he looked no > >less stubborn. 'You'll forgive me, >Dumbledore, but I've heard of a > >curse scar acting as an alarm bell >before...'" (p613, UK edition) > > Hey good eye! I've never noticed that before, I'd always read it as "I've > _never_ heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell before." > > I thought Fudge was refuting Dumbledore, by basically saying it was > nonsense, that he'd never heard of such a thing. But now I'm not so sure. > No. As was pointed out earlier today (not for the first time), the editions do vary on this. The US edition (or at least, *a* US edition) is just as you thought. Both versions make sense, but I have to say that the US edition seems to me to make more sense. What surprises me is that Phyllis's UK edition, which, IIRC, is the later one with corrections of wand order, etc, doesn't agree with it. It's rather strange, because my impression from our previous discussions is that the UK editions (particularly the later ones) have fewer errors in them than the US ones. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Wed Nov 27 18:46:06 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:46:06 -0000 Subject: Fudge and Curse Scars In-Reply-To: <129.1c16b78d.2b166bc6@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47299 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > It's rather strange, because my impression from our previous discussions is > that the UK editions (particularly the later ones) have fewer errors in them > than the US ones. Yes, the fact that the UK editions leave out "never" makes me wonder if that is correct. (So does my Canadian edition, btw.) When all else fails, introduce the Big Bang theory. The Big Bang theory would state that "never heard" is a dud, since it just ends there. Fudge refuses to believe that curse scars act as alarm bells. However "I've heard" is very bangy, since it introduces the question of which curse scar Fudge is referring to that obviously should have alerted people that the owner was unhinged. So, until the editions are correlated, Big Bangers should probably go with "I've heard." Eileen, tongue planted firmly in cheek and really hoping that they get out an Annotated HP series soon From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 19:11:01 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:11:01 -0000 Subject: Dementors Helping the DEs and the Two Franks (WAS: Dementors' Kiss) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47300 Marcia ("mmgardin") wrote: > In modification then, of Neville's poor memory due to memory > charms, I think the memory that was blocked was of his parents > receiving the Dementors' Kiss. Now me: An interesting theory, but I tend to take Dumbledore's statement that the Longbottoms were tortured into insanity at face value. I can't think of a reason why Dumbledore would tell Harry they were tortured when they were actually Kissed, since Harry knows all about the Kiss by this point. I also think being tortured into insanity is at least as horrible as receiving the Kiss - if not more so, since the Kiss happens quickly while I would imagine the torturing took awhile. Marcia again: > Speculating, I'm guessing that the Death Eaters use the Dementors > as a way to quiet their victims. Me again: While it's plausible, I don't think so, primarily because the Dementors currently guard a prison in which many DEs are incarcerated. While the Ministry of Magic has its faults, I don't think they would put creatures that were previously affiliated with the DEs in charge of guarding the DEs. That's not to say that the Dementors won't help the DEs in the future - Voldemort has already alluded to recruiting them in his speech to the DEs in the graveyard scene in GoF. Marcia again: > One last thought that has also bothered me from the beginning ? > JKR loves to give her characters interesting and telling names. > Why then, has she used the name Frank twice (Frank Longbottom and > Frank Bryce)? I've racked my brain trying to elucidate a > connection between those 2 characters and come up with nothing. Me again: Well, with the multitude of characters she's created, it probably shouldn't be too surprising that she'll have to use a name more than once. And she would be in good company - Jane Austen named two characters "Charles" in "Persuasion" (and Austen is one of JKR's favorite authors). But I think I can make a connection between the two Franks. To be "frank" is to be honest and sincere. I think both of JKR's Franks exhibit these characteristics, which makes it all the more appalling that Frank Bryce was so carelessly murdered and Frank Longbottom was so horribly tortured. ~Phyllis From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 19:13:21 2002 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:13:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why are *all* Muggles so tolerant of their wizard children? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021127191321.77716.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47301 --- Polaris wrote: > One thing I've never been able to understand about this entire world > dreamed up by JKR...the WW goes to such lengths to hide themselves, and > yet, wizards can be born to all-muggle families (i.e. Hermione Granger). > Now while her parents were apparently just fine with her being a witch > (just like Lily's parents were *so* happy -- SS/PS), aren't there ever > people like the Durselys, who, if they had a son (their own blood, as > opposed to their nephew) who was a witch, would completely go beserk and > hate him forever, then make it their life's work to inform the world of > these nutters? Well, I'd imagine there's basically a security measure in place. If, as so many of us have postulated, the Muggle-born kids get a visit from an adult wizard to explain things to them, then any parents who completely freak out about the wizarding world will promptly get memory charmed! ;) One would hope, of course, that the charm is simply to wipe out all memory of the wizarding world and the child will go on to Eton or where ever and live a Muggle life. However, a slightly darker version might have the Muggle parents' objections Obliviated and their being "convinced" that magic is the way to go. Either way, you wind up with parents who won't be spreading the word about the wizarding world. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 19:25:01 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:25:01 -0000 Subject: Has Fudge Heard of Curse Scars as Alarm Bells? (WAS: Fudge and Curse Scars) In-Reply-To: <129.1c16b78d.2b166bc6@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47302 Eloise (eloiseherisson) wrote: > No. As was pointed out earlier today (not for the first time), the > editions do vary on this. The US edition (or at least, *a* US > edition) is just as you thought. > > Both versions make sense, but I have to say that the US edition > seems to me to make more sense. What surprises me is that Phyllis's > UK edition, which, IIRC, is the later one with corrections of wand > order, etc, doesn't agree with it. > > It's rather strange, because my impression from our previous > discussions is that the UK editions (particularly the later ones) > have fewer errors in them than the US ones. Now me: Hi, Eloise- Yes, I'm referring to the UK "adult version" paperback edition of GoF which has the wand order problem corrected (2001 edition). It just really seems to me that from the context, Fudge is disagreeing with Dumbledore (he starts by saying "You'll forgive me, Dumbledore..."), so I'm convinced that the "never" should have been in there. But it is a bit of a mystery, since as you say, the UK versions are usually better at correcting errors than the US versions. ~Phyllis who thinks HPfGU listies should proof the books from now on From heidit at netbox.com Wed Nov 27 19:23:54 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:23:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How good a student is Draco? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47303 Actually, a number of people consider that scene in Borgin and Burkes, combined with the way Snape praises Draco's preparation of potions ingredients as evidence that he's towards the top of the class, although of course below Hermione, even in Potions. He's not mentioned as stupid along with Crabbe and Goyle when Harry notes that they didn't flunk out, and it's unlikely that Snape would praise a Slytherin student as a good example if there were other Slytherins who were doing better. In Borgin and Burkes, if JKR had wanted to show that Draco was really towards the lower end of the class, she could have done so by having Lucius note that not only were his marks worse than "Mudbloods", they were worse than Weasley's His quips are sometimes quite witty (pets that sting, bite and burn) and he's a nosy little schemer, which you can't be if you're totally thick. Heidi Tandy Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, sizes and ships - 7 sickles an ounce http://www.FictionAlley.org -----Original Message----- From: "Wanda Sherratt" Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:15:50 To:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] How good a student is Draco? Real-To: "Wanda Sherratt" I was wondering if Snape favours Draco purely because of his family connections, or because he sees in him a resemblance to himself at that age, or if perhaps he might reasonably be good at Potions? I know at the beginning of CoS Lucius Malfoy makes a remark about Draco having poor grades, but I wonder if we can really take that at face value. Lucius is one of those cold, punishing fathers, and he may be the sort who would be dissatisfied no matter what Draco does. He mentions that Hermione beat Draco on every exam, but compared to Hermione, practically anyone would come off badly. Are there any other passages that give a clear idea of whether Draco is a good or a poor student? Wanda ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Nov 27 19:42:51 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:42:51 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why do 'purebloods' hate Muggles? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17234197643.20021127114251@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47304 Tuesday, November 26, 2002, 7:10:45 PM, chthonia9 wrote: c> Maybe all the Death Eaters were motivated by various individual c> combinations of lust for power, desire to offset their own sense of c> insignificance by aligning themselves to a powerful, directive force, c> or destructive urges to wreak mayhem. But throughout the books c> there's this constant emphasis on bloodlines, and while we do get c> a reason why Riddle/Voldemort would hate Muggles, and hence direct c> his movement that way, there also seems to a more general prejudice c> (expressed most forcefully by the Malfoys), and I can't really c> see where its roots might be. I think maybe they're remembering all those centuries that Muggles persecuted Witches and Wizards, and they can't let bygones be bygones. Maybe they even fear a return of "The Burning Times" if their existance became generally known to 21st century Muggles. I even imagine their hatred for "half-bloods" and "Muggle-lovers" (including in the carnal sense) is because they see them as "Uncle Toms". And Muggle-borns are probably seen as "freaks", like two villiage idiots giving birth to an Einstein, or something. And it helps to have a demagogue like Voldy who can convince his followers that Muggles are behind all the Wizarding World's problems, just as Hitler preached that Jews were responsible for all the problems in 1930's - 40's Germany. -- Dave From kkearney at students.miami.edu Wed Nov 27 19:42:07 2002 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:42:07 -0000 Subject: Why are *all* Muggles so tolerant of their wizard children? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47305 Pagan Michelle wrote: > One thing I've never been able to understand about this entire world > dreamed up by JKR...the WW goes to such lengths to hide themselves, > and > yet, wizards can be born to all-muggle families (i.e. Hermione >Granger). > Now while her parents were apparently just fine with her being a >witch > (just like Lily's parents were *so* happy -- SS/PS), aren't there >ever > people like the Durselys, who, if they had a son (their own blood, >as > opposed to their nephew) who was a witch, would completely go >beserk and > hate him forever, then make it their life's work to inform the >world of > these nutters? I reply: Well, first of all, we have absolutely no evidence that everyone invited to Hogwarts actually attends. I think it highly doubtful that parents would end up hating their own child simply because they discover he or she is magical. I personally believe there is much more to the Dursley's dislike of the wizarding world than we have been told to this point. However, I also don't think most parents would react by being thrilled. It has been hypothesized (although there is no canon to support it) that Muggle children receive a much more in-depth invitation than that which Harry received. Perhaps even a wizard representative is sent to the parents to explain the wizarding world, Hogwarts, and magic in general. If, after all this, the parents are still not thrilled with the idea of their child being sent into this new world, a simple Memory Charm (as Audra suggests) would take care of everything. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Nov 27 19:48:56 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:48:56 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: TriWizard Cup as Portkey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10834563101.20021127114856@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47306 Tuesday, November 26, 2002, 7:18:20 PM, Chuck wrote: C> I think it's just poor writing. I think it's what happens when a really good writer is working under massive pressure to meet a deadline (Is she thinking of herself when she talks about the unobligingly rapid passage of time towards "something unpleasant"?)... I think that's why she's taking her sweet time with Book 5 -- to make sure the plot is water-tight. -- Dave From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Nov 27 19:58:02 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:58:02 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why are *all* Muggles so tolerant of their wizard children? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5435109337.20021127115802@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47307 Wednesday, November 27, 2002, 8:33:58 AM, PAGAN MICHELLE I wrote: PMI> I just can't believe that every Muggle with a wizard child is tolerant and PMI> even happy about it. Just a random thought -- Maybe in such cases the MoM has to either: A) Magically "neuter" (so to speak) the child so he can live a normal Muggle life; or B) Find the child a foster wizarding family and cast a memory charm on the Muggle parents so they forget they ever had a kid at all. -- Dave From melclaros at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 19:38:23 2002 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:38:23 -0000 Subject: Snape's treatment of Draco (was: Re:Snape, Lucius, and mi... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47308 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eloiseherisson at a... wrote: Eloise writes: > > I firmly believe that that apparent public outing was not, in fact, public, > or this just doesn't make sense to me. That Karkaroff trial/pensieve scene drives me crazy too...unless you do what you always *have* to do with Rowling's words and look at *every* *single* *word*. All Crouch says is: "Severus Snape has been cleared by this council!" It *doesn't* say: "Yes, we know he was a DE, and did some very nasty things but he has said he is sorry and we believe him because Mr. Dumbledore here says so." Snape was never "outed". He was obviously accused but somewhere along the line it was "proven" (to the benefit of *both* sides) that Snape was not and never had been a DE. (Hence Fudge's shock when Snape's Dark Mark was revealed?) This attempted public outing would have therefore become a public affirmation and would have buttered *both* sides of Dumbledore's bread. Otherwise, as you say, it makes no sense that he'd be teaching at Hogwarts with no complaints from the WW in general (except perhaps about unfair grading) AND have the support of still loyal DEs such as Lucius Malfoy (as in the Snape for Headmaster campaign launched by Draco). Melpomene From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Nov 27 19:56:55 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:56:55 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's treatment of Draco References: Message-ID: <3DE52387.22F264CA@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47310 Christopher Nuttall wrote: > > ">What I don't understand is why Lucius lets his son anywhere near > >Snape, assuming that Lucius knows that Snape is a traitor and was a > >spy against his cause (which all would have been revealed through > >the trials of the DE's after the fall of Voldemort)." - Person Man > > I have wondered why he lets him get anywhere near Dumbledore, who's a > very 'corrupting influence or Harry potter himself. Did he not want > to send Draco to Dumstrang or was that just Draco's boasting? > > Snape does seem to favour draco, though if Hermione does beat him > (draco) in potions then its just him indulging himself rather than > blatant favotism. Why, of course is a harder question. I believe > that Snape is A) trying to weaken Draco in some way and B) Indulging > his dislike of Harry by praising his opponent. > > Chris > Well, one can note that Draco's mother never showed up at the DE meeting and may NOT be a DE in any way shape or form. It was HER that kept Draco from going to Dumstrang. Maybe there's more to his mother then meets the eye and maybe her looking like she smelled something bad had to do with her disgust of her own husband? We don't know what their married life is like and she never spoke for herself at the Quiddich World Cup. She might have married Lucius for his money or he might have married her for her 'family' for power reasons.. For all we know, they might hate each other and Draco's mother is making sure her son has a chance to NOT be like his father by insisting he go to Hoggswart. You think maybe there might have been something between Mrs Malfoy and Snape in the past, back in school? Not to say that Lucius isn't really Draco's father, but that she might have known Snape in school and trusts him teaching her son over the teachers at Dumstrang? Jazmyn From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 19:48:41 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:48:41 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why are *all* Muggles so tolerant of their wizard children? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47311 PAGAN MICHELLE I: "aren't there ever people like the Durselys, who, if they had a son (their own blood, as opposed to their nephew) who was a witch, would completely go beserk and hate him forever, then make it their life's work to inform the world of these nutters?" I've wondered about it myself. Islam and Christianity both have very strong prohibitions against magic and I suspect that many parents would be reluctant to allow their children to go off into a really dangerous (inc. voldemort) world which they know nothing about and would be mostly helpless against if their child decided to turn their foes or other siblings into frogs and then could not undo the spell. I've noticed some really scary stories (not HP) based round that very possibility Furthermore, they could not protect their children from being persecuted by people such as Malfloy and treated badly. Under such circumstances, would you want your child to go there? I also suspect that the Grangers have no contact with other muggle parents of hogwarts children, but they must have an emergency way of getting in touch with the school if needed. But what if they were really opposed to the idea? If they were very religious, they might try to beat it out of them or tell the whole world. I suspect that the communication between the magic world and the muggle one could be used to get the muggle authorities to pressure then into being quiet or something similar. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wind3213 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 20:01:44 2002 From: wind3213 at hotmail.com (Shauna) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:01:44 -0000 Subject: Both Parents Work? Where's the Canon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47312 Eileen said: > We have no information about any of the working witches in the books > being married (though some of them are said to be single: Bertha > Jorkins, Rita Skeeter). > No, no evidence for any assertions here, I don't think. > > Eileen No, we have no individual working wives, but the sheer number of professional females in the HPverse leads me to believe *some* of them are married. What about the women at Hogwarts?? Is it possible that any of them are married?? McGonagall, Trelawny, Pomfrey, Hooch, Pince, Sprout, Grubbly-Plank, Vector, and Sinastra (although, we don't know that Sinastra is female - just that he/she danced the two-step with Moody) ... and Rosmerta, over at Hogsmeade. What about elsewhere?? There's a Mafalda Hopkirk at the MoM, and Bathilda Bagshott, Miranda Goshawk, Phyllida Spore, and Cassandra Vablatsky wrote some of the textbooks used at Hogwarts.? There's Agatha Chubb, an expert in ancient wizarding artifacts; Madam Malkin, seller of robes; Catriona McCormack, a Quidditch captain and chaser for Portree in the 1960s who has two children (and if you count professional Quidditch as 'working' there are plenty of others like her); Agatha Timms, owner of an eel farm; Celestina Warbeck, professional singer, as well as some of the members of the Wierd Sisters, possibly; and also, finally, Arabella Figg (... Mrs. Figg... is the 'Mrs.' in her name purely for disguise?). Sure, no mention of their marital status is made, but given the sheer number of professional women, some of them must be married! There are also plenty of famous witches from the past who were possibly married, and certainly not stay-at-home moms, not the least of whom are Rowena Ravenclaw and Helga Hufflepuff. I find it hard to believe that the wizarding world would become more partiarichal, rather than less, as the time went on. ~ Shauna From dunphy_shane at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 20:05:10 2002 From: dunphy_shane at hotmail.com (shane dunphy) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:05:10 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does Snape Favour the Slytherins/Snape's Motivations Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47313 Wendy wrote: >Actually, I'm not sure we can conclude that Snape does actually favour >Draco Agreed. I don't believe that any intelligent reading of the canon could conclude that he does. Wendy again: >Our first canon mention of Snape favouring the students comes from Ron >earlier in the same chapter I quoted earlier (PS Chapter 8: "They say he >always favours them"), and strikes me as being of the same flavour as >Percy's statement that Snape wants the DADA job - often, something that >"everyone" knows to be true is just the opposite, especially when talking >about the opinions of school-aged children! I think that this is an excellent point, and worth expanding on a little. In schools, children are inclined to create very black and white characterisations of what their teachers are like: so-and-so is great fun, so-and-so is cross, so-and-so is evil etc. In Hogwarts, we experience everything from Harry's POV, and therefore vicariously from Ron's, Hermione's, Neville's etc. Therefore, we see Snape as they do. However, we're able to reason things from an adult perspective, and can see that Snape is much more complex than that. Snape has an in-built sense of honour, as we have seen throughout the canon (PS, in which he attempts to save Harry from death during the Quidditch match; again in PS when he makes a concerted effort to stop Quirrell from getting the stone; in GOF when we hear that he was in fact a spy for Dumbledore, and when he heads off to do the famous task). Snape's behaviour appears to be driven by some internal compass. He seems to be driven by motivations that we cannot understand - yet! There has been much speculation as to what these motivations are: everything from love of Lilly to being a vampire. I believe neither to be true - they are, after all, just assumptions. It seems to me that Snape has a lot of demons, and I believe that many of them are deeply personal, possibly familial in nature. We know nothing about his childhood or how he grew up, but it seems to me that his behaviour, his inability to make deep lasting friendhsips and his cruelty towards those over whom he has power (his students) is characteristic of an individual who has experienced an insecure attachment to a parent or significant adult, or who has suffered abuse or even neglect during the formative, developmental years. It would be very much in character for Dumbledore to possibly have "rescued" Snape from just such a situation, and attempted to give him a new beginning at Hogwarts. His initial attraction to the Dark Arts would have been a typical response to having spent early childhood feeling powerless, a defense mechanism if you like, and his subsequent career as a DE could also be put down to this. That he eventually cmae full circle and returned to Dumbledore, to serve him in the extremely dangerous role of double agent says a lot about his true nature, his conflicted personality, and his feelings of devotion to Dumbledore, his "surrogate father". Of course, similar to the Love of Lilly and Vampire theories, this is also speculative, but I feel that it answers a lot of outstanding questions, and fits the facts as we have them quite nicely. I'd love to hear other listie's thoughts. Shane. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From bbennett at joymail.com Wed Nov 27 20:24:38 2002 From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett320178) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:24:38 -0000 Subject: How good a student is Draco? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47314 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Heidi Tandy" wrote: > Actually, a number of people consider that scene in Borgin and Burkes, combined with the way Snape praises Draco's preparation of potions ingredients as evidence that he's towards the top of the class, although of course below Hermione, even in Potions. > > He's not mentioned as stupid along with Crabbe and Goyle when Harry notes that they didn't flunk out, and it's unlikely that Snape would praise a Slytherin student as a good example if there were other Slytherins who were doing better. > I agree with Heidi . Draco might not be the best Slytherin in his class (I think it's possible that some of Snape's praise is due to family influence; it's even possible that a bit is because he knows his least favorite student and Malfoy don't get along, and he enjoys rubbing Harry's nose in it), but I don't believe Snape would continue to favor Draco if he were not at least in the top couple of Slytherins. I assume Draco makes better marks than Harry/Ron, and, as Lucius notes, worse marks than Hermione. > His quips are sometimes quite witty (pets that sting, bite and burn) and he's a nosy little schemer, which you can't be if you're totally thick. > Definitely. He's a bright little bugger. B Bennett From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 20:26:18 2002 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:26:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Does Snape Favour the Slytherins/Snape's Motivations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021127202618.16676.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47315 --- shane dunphy wrote: > >Actually, I'm not sure we can conclude that Snape does actually favour > >Draco > > Agreed. I don't believe that any intelligent reading of the canon could > conclude that he does. Well, that's a bit of a sweeping statement, isn't it? You certainly can make a very plausible argument that he doesn't favor Draco, but I hardly think concluding that he *does* is a sign of lack of intelligence or close reading. Draco is the ONLY student Snape is ever explicitly shown to be nice to. Granted, this may partially be because Harry *doesn't* like him, but I hardly think this is the only reason. The first description of the Potions class states that Snape was criticizing everyone (not just Gryffindors, either), "except Malfoy, whom he seemed to like." Draco is the one who is drawn on as an example ("[Snape] was just telling everyone to look at the perfect way Malfoy had stewed his horned slugs") and can get away with things in class that no one else can. Yes, we've learned that JKR doesn't like to leave things as they seem on the surface and to delve into the depths of possibilities, but that doesn't mean we can simply discount the things she HAS shown us, even if we think they're just masking a deeper purpose, until SHE has shown them to be false. You can make a very intelligent case for Snape favoring Draco, and an equally intelligent one for him having some ulterior motive. Neither should be discounted until the rest of the series is out. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 20:07:42 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:07:42 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why are *all* Muggles so tolerant of their wizard children? References: <5435109337.20021127115802@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47316 "Maybe in such cases the MoM has to either: A) Magically "neuter" (so to speak) the child so he can live a normal Muggle life; or B) Find the child a foster wizarding family and cast a memory charm on the Muggle parents so they forget they ever had a kid at all. Dave" First, I can't imagine Dumbledore or the Malfoy's, for different reasons, going along with such an inhumane plan. Think how much it would sour what ever relationship the MOM has with the muggle government. There is also some indirect evidence that the Magic gift cannot be removed, because if it was, surely it would be done to the prisoners in Askaban and even those who got away by claiming that they had been cursed. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dunphy_shane at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 20:41:02 2002 From: dunphy_shane at hotmail.com (shane dunphy) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:41:02 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why are *all* Muggles so tolerant of their wizard children? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47317 Chris wrote: >Islam and Christianity both have very strong prohibitions against >magic >and I suspect that many parents would be reluctant to allow >their children >to go off into a really dangerous (inc. voldemort) >world which they know >nothing about and would be mostly helpless >against if their child decided >to turn their foes or other siblings >into frogs and then could not undo >the spell. I've noticed some really >scary stories (not HP) based round >that very possibility. I reckon that many parents from the MW would have huge Dursleyesque issues about their children getting involved in magic or witchcraft. I also imagine that many children would have preconceptions about witches and wizards as being evil, gleaned largely from fairy-tales and movies. Psychologists such as Bruno Bettelheim and Carl Jung have commented on the importance of these archetypes to the development of our psyches (learning about the realities of good and evil in the world; accepting that happiness in life is often accompanied by suffering; that trials, no matter how difficult and painful, can be overcome when approached with strength and moral truth). Before either parents or children could be expected to get involved in this new and, to the uninitiated, frightening world, there would surely have to be some level of introduction and re-education. Does Hogwarts run some type of class for families who are just getting used to the reality of a wizarding world? Is there an orientation class for muggle-borns? There *must* be something, although we haven't yet encountered it. Of course, it's interesting to note that some of the fears these muggle parents will have are genuine. What is LV but our worst nightmare of what an evil sorcerer is like? The concept of a hidden society, with rival factions at war with one another and a world-wide cover up going on would scare the living daylights out of anyone. If you really think about it, there are aspects of the WW that bear the worst aspects of what magic can produce (AK, the no longer human LV, the Dementors and indeed the deeply inhuman treatment of magical prisoners in Azkaban), combined with the worst aspects of our own world (poverty, prejudice, bureaucracy, political dishonesty). You've got to admit, you'd think long and hard before sending your child into such a world. Shane. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dunphy_shane at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 20:50:22 2002 From: dunphy_shane at hotmail.com (shane dunphy) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:50:22 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Does Snape Favour the Slytherins/Snape's Motivations Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47318 Andrea wrote: >--- shane dunphy wrote: > >Actually, I'm not sure we can conclude that >Snape does actually favour > >Draco > Agreed. I don't believe that any >intelligent reading of the canon could > conclude that he does. Well, >that's a bit of a sweeping statement, isn't it? You certainly can make a >very plausible argument that he doesn't favor Draco, but I hardly think >concluding that he *does* is a sign of lack of intelligence or close >reading. Andrea, you are of course totally correct. I re-read the posting, and it does read as being very pompous and arrogant. I apologise to any members of the community I offended. I was only voicing my own opinion - I find Snape to be one of the most fascinating characters in the canon, and believe that he has many facets to his persona we are as yet unaware of. I may have been over-zealous. Please accept my humble apologies. No offence was intended. Shane. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Nov 27 21:06:41 2002 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:06:41 -0000 Subject: Why are *all* Muggles so tolerant of their wizard children? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47319 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "shane dunphy" wrote: If you really think about it, > there are aspects of the WW that bear the worst aspects of what magic can > produce (AK, the no longer human LV, the Dementors and indeed the deeply > inhuman treatment of magical prisoners in Azkaban), combined with the worst > aspects of our own world (poverty, prejudice, bureaucracy, political > dishonesty). You've got to admit, you'd think long and hard before sending > your child into such a world. > The same thought occurred to me while rereading CoS, where the Grangers get a close look at the ugly side of the wizarding world, in the shape of the very malevolent Lucius Malfoy. They're naturally frightened, and it seems to me that they must wonder what sort of risks they're running, sending their young daughter off alone to face this sort of prejudice. Wanda From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 21:26:37 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:26:37 -0000 Subject: Do Hogwarts Professors Have Spouses? (WAS: Both Parents Work?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47320 Shauna wrote: > What about the women at Hogwarts? Is it possible that any of > them are married? Sure, no mention of their marital status > is made, but given the sheer number of professional women, some of > them must be married! Now me: Comic Relief chat (March 2002, I believe): Q: "Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses? JKR: "Good question - yes, a few of them but that information is sort of restricted - you'll find out why." and the site: http://www.comicrelief.com/harrysbooks/pages/transcript3.shtml The fact that this information is "sort of restricted" has always intrigued me. I surmise that the following professors are *not* married: Professors Dumbledore, McGonagall, Snape (sorry, Dinah!), Sprout, Flitwick and Trelawney. I am basing this supposition on the fact that in PoA, all of these professors were at the Christmas dinner without spouses. This, of course, assumes that one would normally eat Christmas dinner with one's spouse, which may not necessarily be a correct assumption. But I don't have anything better to go on! It is also possible that any of the above professors could have gotten married post-Christmas in PoA or anytime during GoF. ~Phyllis From mcsalas at pacbell.net Wed Nov 27 21:15:46 2002 From: mcsalas at pacbell.net (karenemcee) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:15:46 -0000 Subject: Why are *all* Muggles so tolerant of their wizard children? In-Reply-To: <5435109337.20021127115802@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47321 Dave wrote: > > Maybe in such cases the MoM has to either: A) Magically "neuter" (so to > speak) the child so he can live a normal Muggle life; or B) Find the > child a foster wizarding family and cast a memory charm on the Muggle > parents so they forget they ever had a kid at all. I don't think either of these would work. First, IMHO the magical world would not want to give up a magical child, even if he/she is muggleborn (wasn't there something somewhere about the wizarding world being concerned about underpopulation? I could be totally wrong about that) and as someone else mentioned, there is no mention of anyone being "neutered," although this would be an obvious precaution/solution to some of the worst wizard-world criminals. Second, I don't think it would be that easy to erase the existence of a 10-11 YO child in the muggle world. You'd have to get to not only the parents, but every person the child has had more than casual contact with, not to mention school, medical, and governmental records. This is on top of the gross inhumanity of kidnapping someone's child and obliviating the last decade of their lives, and the fact that the child would be forever cut off from his/her parents. I too think that the Dursleys' reaction would actually be closer to reality for a lot of ordinary people, but to have a whole bunch of kids at Hogwarts with similarly chaotic stories would drain attention from the main plot, IMHO. Perhaps we'll see more hints of that sort of thing as the series continues. Karen Mc (delurking/relurking) From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Nov 27 21:41:11 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:41:11 EST Subject: Snape's treatment of Draco/ Snape's Motivations Message-ID: <187.11ce5b1f.2b1695f7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47322 Melpomene, the Muse of Tragedy, says: > Snape was never "outed". He was obviously accused but somewhere along > the line it was "proven" (to the benefit of *both* sides) that Snape > was not and never had been a DE. (Hence Fudge's shock when Snape's > Dark Mark was revealed?) > > This attempted public outing would have therefore become a public > affirmation and would have buttered *both* sides of Dumbledore's > bread. > Eloise: I'm afraid it's more complicated than that. In the Pensieve, Dumbledore says "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am." Which does make the WW's apparent ignorance of his past harder to explain. I wish it weren't! Jazmyn: >Well, one can note that Draco's mother never showed up at the DE meeting Eloise: We don't actually *know* that, do we? Voldemort didn't address everyone in the circle by name. Shane: >Wendy wrote: >>Actually, I'm not sure we can conclude that Snape does actually favour >>Draco > >Agreed. I don't believe that any intelligent reading of the canon could >conclude that he does. Eloise: Ooh dear! (it's OK, since writing, I've read your latest and I'm not offended.) Well, what do you make of the Potions class where Draco makes his dramatic re-entry after the Hippogriff incident and Snape plays long with his obvious deceit so fully, getting Ron and Harry to prepare his potions ingredients for him. Plus, as has been noted, JKR *tells* us that he is the only student Snape seems to like. If there isn't a lot else, I think it's because Draco isn't particularly well fleshed out yet. Take JKR's assertion that compared to Draco, Dudley was a kind and considerate boy (or words to that effect - I can't find the quote). I don't think the books really bear that out as yet in examples of their behaviour, but JKR says it is so. I think she also *implies* even if she doesn't give many concrete examples that Snape favours Draco. ................. Now - Snape's motivations - my very own de-lurk subject! Shane: >We know nothing about his childhood or how he grew up, but it seems to me >that his behaviour, his inability to make deep lasting friendhsips and his >cruelty towards those over whom he has power (his students) is >characteristic of an individual who has experienced an insecure attachment >to a parent or significant adult, or who has suffered abuse or even neglect >during the formative, developmental years. I agree very much with what you say, except for the 'inability to make deep lasting friendships.' Of that, IMHO, we do not have evidence. People often characterise Snape as a loner, but we know that he hung out with a gang of Slytherins, the rest of whom are either in Azkaban, or dead, as far as we know. And we have no evidence that he doesn't get on well with the rest of the staff. We don't see them treat him, for instance, with the contempt with which they treat Lockhart. I would say that with Dumbledore, he does have a deep, lasting friendship which is one of the thing that makes the 'Dumbledore's Head' scenario so poignant. But for the record, my own Snape backstory does have him coming from an emotionally deprived background with a cold father (and an ineffective or absent mother) for whom nothing was ever good enough and his turning to Voldemort at least in part in the search for an adequate father-figure, Dumbledore having apparently failed him. ~Eloise ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You think that just because it's already happened, the past is finished and unhangeable? Oh no, the past is cloaked in multi-colored taffeta and every time we look at it we see a different hue. (Milan Kundera, Life is Elsewhere) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dorigen at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 21:47:56 2002 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:47:56 +0000 Subject: Malfoys and Dursleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47323 michelle.pagan at colorado.edu said: >I'm not sure Lucius cares too much about his son. He reminds me of the >Durselys of the WW. (They hate wizards, he hates Muggles --neither of >them care to much about the boy [Harry, Draco]). I agree that Lucius and the Dursleys are very similar in many ways: they're both bigoted, thoughtless, and narrow-minded. They're both capable of cruelty, including to the weak and helpless. And they both spoil their children rotten while failing to teach them any manners, ethics, or civilized behavior. In fact, you could call them mirror images of each other, each exhibiting the worst of their respective worlds. The Dursleys think anyone with wizard blood is worthless; the Malfoys think anyone with human blood is worthless. Of course, the Dursleys are stupid, incompetent comic relief while the Malfoys are competent, threatening, and deliberately embrace the evil of Voldemort. However, we are talking here about a couple, with a child of their own, who systematically neglected, lied to, and emotionally abused another child left in their care from infancy, who also happens to be their own nephew. Okay, it's not up to Voldemort's standards, but it's not all that comical either. If Vernon Dursley were to be reconciled to the Wizarding World, which side of it would he choose? The glimpses we get of his business practices make it not unlikely that he'd admire the social standing of the Malfoys and the power of Voldemort. However, I disagree that Lucius doesn't *care* about his son. And of course the Dursleys care a great deal about their son also; they just don't care about *Harry,* because they don't think of him as a human person with feelings. (Just like the Malfoys don't think Muggles count as humans.) Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dorigen at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 21:53:27 2002 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:53:27 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Do Hogwarts Professors Have Spouses? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47324 erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com said: >>The fact that this information is "sort of restricted" has always >intrigued me. I find this perfectly understandable considering what happened to Lily and James Potter and to Frank Longbottom and his wife, just to name two examples -- and there are undoubtedly more such tragedies to Voldemort's credit. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Wed Nov 27 22:09:58 2002 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:09:58 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Typographical Error on Goblet of Fire Message-ID: <6.33653a2.2b169cb6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47325 In a message dated 11/26/02 5:34:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, mimian16 at yahoo.com writes: > Hi! I'm new to this group. I would just like to share that the > hardbound book of Goblet of Fire that I have has a typo error on it. > On page 291, last line, Harry's letter to Sirius reads: "...I don't > who put my name..." I assumed it should read "... I don't know who > put my name..." > > Well, that's all I can share for now. > > Do any of you have the same error as well? > > mimi > I've got it too! (Watching Muppet Treasure Island *grin* "Cabin Fever"!) I didn't even notice it.....I suppose I just read it the right way. FYI, I have the First American Edition.... ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ In order to know virture, we must first acquaint ourselves with vice. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Nov 27 22:21:13 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:21:13 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Do Hogwarts Professors Have Spouses? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47326 Phyllis: > The fact that this information is "sort of restricted" has always > intrigued me. I surmise that the following professors are *not* > married: Professors Dumbledore, McGonagall, Snape (sorry, Dinah!), > Sprout, Flitwick and Trelawney. I am basing this supposition on the > fact that in PoA, all of these professors were at the Christmas > dinner without spouses. This, of course, assumes that one would > normally eat Christmas dinner with one's spouse, which may not > necessarily be a correct assumption. > It's also possible, logically at least, that some of them are married *to each other*! Or even all of them (three men, three women)! Eloise Who doesn't *want* Snape to be married to anyone, thank you very much. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Nov 27 22:32:22 2002 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 22:32:22 -0000 Subject: Sociopathic Sirius? (and no Paranoid Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47327 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Judy" wrote: > It's true that we can't read the characters' mind, but one can tell a > lot about introspection level by looking at behavior. Dumbledore, for > example, is highly introspective. He gets lost in the Pensieve, > hardly remembering that Harry is there, and sits staring at the > ceiling in the Great Hall, deep in contemplation. > > I'd say that Snape is far higher than Sirius in introspection. But, I > don't mean that he necessarily has more insights into his own > behavior. Rather, I mean that he is focused on his own thoughts > instead of the external environment. I'd agree that Snape is introspective. I couldn't say for sure one way or the other about Sirius. I think in many of the list's Sn/Si discussions we tend to compare the two men against each other or against a set of defined behaviors that we wish to delve into. The only real problem I have with that is that we have seen a lot of Snape in all four books. We've seen Sirius in only two books and, for a great part of PoA we were led to believe he was the bad guy. We've seen Sirius as a major player in two major scenes(the Shack, the Cave) and one somewhat smaller scene (Head in the Fireplace). He's been barely more than a bit player in other scenes, and we have to rely on letters to Harry for more info. On the other hand, we see Snape interact with the Trio, with other students, with his peers at Hogwarts, with Dumbledore, with MoM people, with visitors like Karkaroff. We hear him speak, we see his reactions. Yes, all this may be colored by Harry's interpretation, but nevertheless, we are given a number of Snape interactions. We see Sirius interact with the Trio, Lupin, Snape, Pettigrew and Dumbledore. That's it. (I'm not counting the Hospital scene at the end of GoF because Sirius in human form is only there long enough to shake hands with Snape, make Molly Weasley scream and say goodbye to Harry.) My point is that I don't think we have as complete a picture of Sirius as we do of Snape. We can certainly take what we know, and add what other people have said about him and his past, and draw conclusions. But, we don't have the same level of observation on actions and words that we have of Snape. Big snip of introvert/extrovert discussion (I hated doing it because it was very interesting, but I don't want to get hexed for leaving too much info in! ;-) > I don't believe that a few months in the tropics could undo the damage > caused by 12 years of hell. Saying that Sirius has recovered by GoF > implies that people can recover quickly from years of trauma, and I > don't think that's true. Portraying Sirius as recovering so quickly > bothers me because people who've been traumatized in real life are > often told to "just get over it" and are pressured to recover quickly, > even if that just isn't possible. Again, I agree wholeheartedly that it takes more than a few months to recover from this level of trauma. However, and this gets back to my above comments, we don't actually see a lot of Sirius. Isn't it possible that he is still suffering damage, but has the inner strength or resiliency or whatever to get his act together when he knows he will be interacting with Harry? In GoF, Sirius knows in advance that he will be speaking to Harry via fireplace and that the Trio are coming to meet him at the cave. Plus, from Harry's letters he has some idea of what Harry's going through. He has some time to prepare himself to listen and offer advice. I think it's telling that in the scene in Dumbledore's office after the Third Task, where Sirius doesn't know in advance what Harry's physical or mental state is, he becomes progressively more upset/withdrawn at the story. To the point that he retreats into a shell with his face hidden in his hands when Harry talks about seeing James and Lily. So, yes I don't think it's possible that anyone can recover from trauma that quickly, and I don't think that Sirius has recovered. > Here's a question that I've been meaning to ask Sirius' (many) fans. > Did you like him in PoA? Or, did you not start to like him until you > read GoF? I'm wondering if people like him *because* of his actions > in PoA, or *despite* his actions in PoA. Once I realized that he had been wrongly accused and had endured a twelve year sentence of mental torture, I jumped onto the Sirius bandwagon with both size 10 feet. Plus, the thought (silly me, I'm such a sucker) that Harry could go live with a wizard, and one who could provide a big link to his parents, and that Remus had recovered a friend he thought he'd lost...I should probably say I'm not one of those who fall into the Lupin (or Black) is Ever So Evil. Yes, I liked him despite of his actions. > By the way, I agree with a lot of the "Sirius Apologetics" in message > #47051. I especially agree that Sirius didn't deserve to be sent to > Azkaban. (Yeah, too bad Snape doesn't realize that.) I can't buy that > Sirius feels lots of remorse over the Prank, though. He certainly > doesn't show it in the Shrieking Shack. I don't think we've seen evidence of a lot of remorse, either. However, Sirius' focus in the Shack was very much on other things, and rehashing old history about Snape was, at that point, like dealing with an annoying insect. This wasn't about Snape, in Sirius' mind. It was about Pettigrew. If anything, Snape as a teenager was *too* trusting. I mean > really, what sort of self-respecting paranoiac would go rushing off to > the Tunnel just because an enemy told him how to get in? (And it > wasn't that he was stupid; even Sirius gives him credit for > cleverness.) Yes, of course, and why would he trust Sirius, of all people? Which is why all us Sirius people *know* there's more to the prank than we've been told. ;-) Marianne From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Wed Nov 27 22:35:00 2002 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:35:00 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape, Lucius, and missing DE's (was: Re: Snape and the P... Message-ID: <16b.17b63475.2b16a294@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47328 In a message dated 11/26/02 7:08:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, Audra1976 at aol.com writes: > Regarding the three missing DE's, I'm sorry, but I think it really *is* that > > simple. It's Barty Crouch, Karkaroff, and Snape. If he was actually > referring to Bagman as one of them, as some people proposed, then why would > > he leave out any of the other three? > The only problem I have with that is that it's *so* obvious. The thing that makes HP wicked is that nothing is ever what it seems. The skinny boy that lives under the stairs is a powerful wizard and the pet rat is really a traitor in disguise and the malicious teacher is really a good guy - it doesn't fit with what we've seen to have the three Death Eaters be the most obvious ones...*shrugs* IMHO anyway. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ Nex est exordium. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Ali at zymurgy.org Wed Nov 27 22:39:15 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 22:39:15 -0000 Subject: Do Hogwarts Professors Have Spouses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47329 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > Phyllis: >>> The fact that this information is "sort of restricted" has always intrigued me. I surmise that the following professors are *not* married: Professors Dumbledore, McGonagall, Snape (sorry, Dinah!), Sprout, Flitwick and Trelawney. I am basing this supposition on the fact that in PoA, all of these professors were at the Christmas dinner without spouses. This, of course, assumes that one would normally eat Christmas dinner with one's spouse, which may not necessarily be a correct assumption.<<< > Eloise replied: >>> It's also possible, logically at least, that some of them are married *to each other*! > Or even all of them (three men, three women)! > > Eloise > Who doesn't *want* Snape to be married to anyone, thank you very much. I say: It's also highly likely that one or more of the teachers have been married, but their spouse(s) has(have) died. So many wizards are said to have been killed in the Voldemort killer campaigns, it is certainly conceivable that bereavement touched the teaching staff. Ali who is convinced that Snape was never married - he was in love with Lily didn't you know? From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 27 22:48:09 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 22:48:09 -0000 Subject: PTSD Sirius (Was Sociopathic Sirius? (and Paranoid Snape?)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47330 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Judy" wrote: > As Penny mentioned, I don't subscribe to the theory that Sirius' > behavior in PoA can be explained by PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress > Disorder.) Symptoms of PTSD usually don't appear until *after* the > trauma is over. During the crisis, the person's mind is focused on > survival, and the person often thinks, "If only I could get out of > this situation, things would be all right." It's not until after the > crisis has passed that the full impact hits and the person realizes > that life will never be the same. In PoA, Sirius is on the run, > everyone thinks he's a murderer, he's half-starved, the dementors are > on his trail. He's still in crisis mode; it's too early for PTSD. If > he was going to show signs of PTSD, I'd expect them to show up in > GoF. Ah, but I don't think Azkaban is the traumatizing event for Sirius. I think the traumatizing event is his discovery of James and Lily's deaths and Peter's betrayal. (This theory didn't originate with me, I believe Monica came up with first, but it made sense to me when I read it.) Azkaban exacerbated the symptoms and prevented all hope of recovery for as long as Sirius was in there. One of the classic symptoms of PTSD is fixation on the trauma: "Long after the danger is past, traumatized people relive the event as if it were continually recurring in the present... The traumatic moment becomes encoded in an abnormal form of memory, which breaks spontaneously into consciousness, both as flashbacks during waking states and as traumatic nightmares during sleep."* Sound a lot like what the Dementors do to you, doesn't it? In effect, Sirius spent twelve years trapped in a continuous post- traumatic flashback. One of the things that struck me on rereadings of PoA is the sense of urgency and that seemed to be driving Sirius' actions. From the moment he sees that photo in the Daily Prophet and realizes that Wormtail is at Hogwarts, he's convinced that Harry is in immediate danger, and that he (Sirius) must go out and save him *now*, right now, not a moment to lose. It motivates him to escape. It makes him so desperate to get to Peter that he loses it whenever anyone gets in his way. Yet when you think about it rationally, what's the hurry? Wormtail has been a rat for twelve years and made no attempt to harm Harry. Voldemort, as far as Sirius knows, has not been heard of in all this time. Yet Sirius is sure that danger is at hand. Why? Because he's not reacting as if twelve years have passed. He's still reacting as if the betrayal and the murders have just happened and Harry is the immediate next target. > > I don't believe that a few months in the tropics could undo the damage > caused by 12 years of hell. Saying that Sirius has recovered by GoF > implies that people can recover quickly from years of trauma, and I > don't think that's true. I don't think for a moment that Sirius has made a complete recovery. He has recovered enough that he's no longer showing symptoms at all times. He can pull himself together and act normal for Harry's benefit during the short time that they interact in GoF. But even then Harry occasionally notices the "haunted" look returning to his eyes, and connects it to the way Sirius had looked after Azkaban. We only see Sirius a few times during GoF; we don't know what his mental state is like during the entire year. Whatever problems he may still be experiencing, he'd make an effort to hide them from Harry. > Here's a question that I've been meaning to ask Sirius' (many) fans. > Did you like him in PoA? Or, did you not start to like him until you > read GoF? I'm wondering if people like him *because* of his actions > in PoA, or *despite* his actions in PoA. I liked from the time we learned his true story in PoA. I was apalled by the injustice that was done to him, and I was impressed by the mental strength he showed in surviving Azkaban and by the depth of his concern for Harry. Even my disapproval of the Prank was not enough to counteract that. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Nov 27 22:53:00 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:53:00 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why are *all* Muggles so tolerant of their wizard children? References: <20021127191321.77716.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3DE54CCC.6126BFF5@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47331 Andrea wrote: > > > Well, I'd imagine there's basically a security measure in place. If, > as > so many of us have postulated, the Muggle-born kids get a visit from > an > adult wizard to explain things to them, then any parents who > completely > freak out about the wizarding world will promptly get memory charmed! > ;) > One would hope, of course, that the charm is simply to wipe out all > memory > of the wizarding world and the child will go on to Eton or where ever > and > live a Muggle life. However, a slightly darker version might have the > Muggle parents' objections Obliviated and their being "convinced" that > magic is the way to go. Either way, you wind up with parents who > won't be > spreading the word about the wizarding world. > > Andrea > I would think that anyone with wizards in their family would know they had them and that info passed down. Muggles don't spontaneously produce wizard kids, they had to inherit those magical genes from somewhere. Possibly both parents would have to carry the 'recessive' gene as well, assuming its a recessive gene as it skips generations sometimes. So even if one parent was adopted/fostered/orphaned and didn't know about having wizarding in their bloodlines, its likely the other one might know. Lilly's parents obviously both knew about the WW to be so happy to have had a child with magic, possibly one or both being squibs themselves with one or more parents or grandparents who was a wizard.. We don't know that the purebloods don't consider a squib to be a 'muggle' far as the offspring are concerned. Non-magical parents are non-magical parents after all, regardless for the reason they are non-magical. Why do you think Filch is so paranoid about his lack of magic? You think some magical kids born of muggle parents have is rough, imagine being a squib born in the Malfoy family! I don't see them wiping memories over this. Otherwise they would adopt squib children out to muggle parents so they never knew and would be so elitist about it, that ONLY magical people could know about the WW. A number of muggles do in fact know about it and keep it secret or they keep quiet about it cause they would not want to be locked up as loonies. There are also the muggles who know nothing about the WW and pretend they have magic.. ie Wiccans and other pagans who burn incense, do rituals and fool themselves into believing they did magic. One wonders that the WW wizards make of them? Bunch of loonie muggles who think they are wizards. Real magic would scare them to death! ;) Jazmyn From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 27 22:57:59 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 22:57:59 -0000 Subject: Adding citation Re: PTSD Sirius (Was Sociopathic Sirius? (and Paranoid Snape?)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47332 Whoops! Just realized that I quoted from a book in my PTSD post below and then, like an idiot, forgot to cite it. Mea culpa. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marinafrants" wrote: > "Long after the danger is past, traumatized people relive the event > as if it were continually recurring in the present... The traumatic > moment becomes encoded in an abnormal form of memory, which breaks > spontaneously into consciousness, both as flashbacks during waking > states and as traumatic nightmares during sleep."* > "Trauma and Recovery" by Judith Herman, M.D., p. 33. Copyright 1992, 1997 by Basic Books. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From sgarfio at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 23:12:21 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:12:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's treatment of Draco (was: Re:Snape, Lucius, and mi... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021127231221.85410.qmail@web21408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47333 Melpomene wrote: > Eloise writes: > > > > I firmly believe that that apparent public outing was not, in fact, > public, > > or this just doesn't make sense to me. > Snape was never "outed". He was obviously accused but somewhere along > the line it was "proven" (to the benefit of *both* sides) that Snape > was not and never had been a DE. (Hence Fudge's shock when Snape's > Dark Mark was revealed?) > > This attempted public outing would have therefore become a public > affirmation and would have buttered *both* sides of Dumbledore's > bread. I add: Also, all of the known DEs were either imprisoned or "cleared". Lucius Malfoy was also (falsely) cleared; all of the other DEs know this. So why should Snape be any different? Snape could go on with his life and his career, just like all the other free DEs, with the public thinking he was innocent, while the other DEs "know" he's really one of them. They may or may not know what his "cover story" was, but they would just assume he lied like they did. Of course, none of this proves what his *true* loyalties are; either he is fooling the DEs and is really a spy for Dumbledore, or he is fooling Dumbledore (and the public) and is really a loyal DE. I really hope we don't find out for sure until the end . - Sherry, loyal Snape fan ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Wed Nov 27 23:14:24 2002 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:14:24 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why are *all* Muggles so tolerant of their wizard chi... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47334 In a message dated 11/27/02 2:15:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, ra_1013 at yahoo.com writes: > Well, I'd imagine there's basically a security measure in place. If, as > so many of us have postulated, the Muggle-born kids get a visit from an > adult wizard to explain things to them, then any parents who completely > freak out about the wizarding world will promptly get memory charmed! ;) > One would hope, of course, that the charm is simply to wipe out all memory > of the wizarding world and the child will go on to Eton or where ever and > live a Muggle life. However, a slightly darker version might have the > Muggle parents' objections Obliviated and their being "convinced" that > magic is the way to go. Either way, you wind up with parents who won't be > spreading the word about the wizarding world. > > > > Andrea That would be so horrible. I mean, magic is a part of the child and to not let them go because of your own beliefs is wicked (and not wicked as in cool). I cannot imagine how upset that child would be if they ever found out about the WW and found out that their parents didn't let them go. (I know how unlikely that could be, but I've learned that *nothing* is impossible) You cannot change who a person is and who they grow to be, no matter what your own personal beliefs are. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ (Whose parents threw away all her vampire related stuff when she was younger because they thought she was "too weird".) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Wed Nov 27 23:43:59 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:43:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: accidental magic References: <8A080AFF-0187-11D7-AAD1-000393065664@bellsouth.net> <009e01c295b9$c6f616a0$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <3DE4550D.56FA4900@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <005c01c2966e$dc4e8ea0$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47335 > Note that the 'accidental magic' happens during stress and is not > controlled. Takes a wand to control it properly.. > You simply don't see kids under 11 given THEIR OWN wands.. Young Kevin > and his daddy's wand is not an example of children being allowed wands > because he was not supposed to be playing with it. Frankly 'mom' should > have been as frantic as if she walked in on her kid playing with a .357 > magnum, in my opinion.. > > Jazmyn Jazmyn, your point was that magic doesn't kick in until kids are 11 years old. My point is it does. It may be induced by stress, yes, and something in me seriously doubts that muggles can fly brooms. I think it takes magic for a brook to actually start floating when you say "Up!" and for a muggle it wouldn't do anything. That's arguable, I know. As for the child with the wand... No, mom shouldn't have been frantic as if the kid was holding a gun. A gun can kill if the person holding it is strong enough to squeeze the trigger. A wand can't do serious magic unless the person holding it is a trained adult. Remember Crouch!Moody told the class that if they all got their wands out and started screaming "Avadar Kedavra" he wouldn't even get a nosebleed. The toddler wouldn't have been able to hurt anyone with daddy's wand, but he could lose it while playing, that's why he's not allowed to touch. Coming back to what it's all about, we have evidence that kids are magical even before the age of 11. Not strong, maybe not even always visibly, but they are. You were arguying that they were just muggles. > > I kinda get the idea that a wizards powers don't really start > > to kick in till they are at least 10-11 years old. Or they would > not dare let kids under 11 have wands! That's what you said, right? If that was true then Harry's powers would never have kicked in, even during stress, and Neville would've gone "splatter" on the pavement rather than bounced to the road. Alina. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 13/11/2002 From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Thu Nov 28 00:20:58 2002 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 00:20:58 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why are *all* Muggles so tolerant of their wizard children? References: <5435109337.20021127115802@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <00f401c29674$07c1a860$798701d5@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 47336 Chris wrote: > "Maybe in such cases the MoM has to either: A) Magically "neuter" (so to speak) the child so he can live a normal Muggle life; or B) Find the child a foster wizarding family and cast a memory charm on the Muggle parents so they forget they ever had a kid at all. Dave" > > First, I can't imagine Dumbledore or the Malfoy's, for different reasons, going along with such an inhumane plan. Think how much it would sour what ever relationship the MOM has with the muggle government. For what it worth, I can easily see Dumbledore or even Arthur Weasley doing whatever it takes to bring the child to the wizarding world. Magical talent is so rare, it's a shame to waste it as a result of stubborn Muggles stupidity, would be the reasoning. Irene From judyshapiro at directvinternet.com Thu Nov 28 00:28:02 2002 From: judyshapiro at directvinternet.com (Judy) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 00:28:02 -0000 Subject: Sociopathic Riddle; Sirius and PTSD In-Reply-To: <3839DA3B.30DE5709.022D3A68@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47337 Audra said: >>> A great number of (probably most) Antisocial Personality types are *not* charming. They are misfits in society with little social skill. Many spend most of their lives in prison.... Young Tom Riddle was not in this category, but I felt the need to correct your thinking that all people with APD are "*both* charming and fearless." This is not at all the case. ... The behavior that allows someone with APD to come off as "charming" is *already* listed in the criteria: *deceitfulness,* repeated lying and cheating to achieve their end.<<< I definitely agree that anti-social personality disorder fits Tom Riddle perfectly. I've often wondered whether JKR has studied APD and used the diagnostic criteria to design the character, or whether perhaps she *knew* someone with anti-social personality and based Tom Riddle's character on that person. I don't actually think that *everyone* with anti-social personality is charming, so you don't need to correct my thinking. I was trying to show how a characteristic (charm) could be used as a classification criterion for a particular personality type, even if many other personality types also have that same characteristic. To do this, I gave an oversimplified example of how interactive classification criteria work, involving charm and fearlessness. The real criteria are a lot more complicated. I'd disagree that deceit is the sole reason why some people with this personality type (I'm not necessarily talking about a disorder) are charming. Certainly, given his evil intentions, Tom Riddle needs to deceive people in order to charm them. But not all people with this personality type are involved in criminal acts, and therefore, not all of them need to deceive people in order to charm them. Sirius doesn't need to deceive; it's his extroversion that produces his charm. Marina said: > I don't think Azkaban is the traumatizing event for Sirius. I think the traumatizing event is his discovery of James and Lily's deaths and Peter's betrayal.< This is a very interesting theory, although I still have trouble connecting Sirius' behavior in PoA with his behavior in GoF. If he has only partially recovered, I don't see why his behavior should be so different. I also have trouble seeing Sirius as having the symptoms of PTSD in *either* of the books. For example, anxiety symptoms are a hallmark of PTSD, but as far as I can tell, Sirius doesn't show much anxiety. However, I agree that we don't have complete information about Sirius' behavior, so perhaps he has these symptoms and we just don't see them. Perhaps in future books JKR will reveal the existence of a "post dementor-exposure syndrome" that explains the change in Sirius' behavior? We already know of the existence of people mentally harmed by magic (the Longbottoms) so there's no reason why the Potterverse can't include magically-inflicted emotional disorders that don't exist in the real world. Thanks to everyone who wrote to me (onlist or offlist) saying they liked Sirius in PoA, and why. Several people said they had a great deal of sympathy for him because of his unfair incarceration in Azkaban and the trauma of losing his friends. No question, Sirius has really been through a lot and this makes him a sympathetic character. Still, the combination of the Prank, along with other hard-to-explain actions such as his attack on the Fat Lady, leave me with a lot of suspicions about him. -- Judy Serenity From kaityf at jorsm.com Thu Nov 28 01:23:13 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:23:13 -0600 Subject: Arthur at Azkaban Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127000433.01283bc8@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47338 My son just pointed out to me that in PoA, the Weasley kids are talking to Harry about Azkaban and one of them says that their dad went there just the one time. I tried to look this up in the archives, but it's late and I had to give up. I can't think of why a wizard working in a Ministry of Magic office dealing with Muggle artifacts would have a need to go to Azkaban. It didn't sound like he was there as a prisoner, so that leaves visiting or some official business. Who would he be visiting? Why would he have official business there? Is this part of the reason some have suggested that Arthur was really an auror? I'm sure this has been discussed already, so if someone will point me in the right direction, I'll go hunt up the appropriate messages. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From kaityf at jorsm.com Thu Nov 28 01:23:23 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:23:23 -0600 Subject: Voldemort's Wand Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127184855.012c9488@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47339 Okay, I'm still working on my theory (or whatever you want to call it) that Snape and Lucius were at the Potters the night they were killed. Voldemort's wand was a problem, but that's always been a problem. Well, I came up with an explanation that might work. Lucius is the one who picks up Voldemort's wand after the curse backfires. He takes it back to his secret room under his manor, where he has other things belonging to Voldemort, like Riddle's diary. Now we know in CoS that Lucius goes to Knockturn Alley to sell some of these items because he doesn't want to be caught holding them. Now he may not have sold it that day Harry sees him selling stuff, but we do know that Lucius is selling stuff he shouldn't have. We know someone else goes to Knockturn Alley too. Hagrid. As someone suggested previously, it seems odd that Hagrid needed to go to KA to get slug repellent since good witches and wizards are just as likely to get slugs as the bad ones are. The implication is that Hagrid just might be doing something else there. Again, it might not have happened on the same day Harry saw Hagrid in KA, but I'm thinking that Hagrid goes to KA to get things -- like critters -- he's not really supposed to have. What if Hagrid bought that wand? He wouldn't know that it was Voldemort's wand. How could he? And it's such a Hagrid thing to do: "I'm not going to use it; I just want a wand. It can't hurt anything if I buy a nice wand just to look at." He can't very well go to Olivander's for a wand because he's not supposed to have one and Olivander knows it. We know Hagrid buys illegal things -- the dragon egg, for instance -- so it's not really a stretch to imagine him buying an illegal wand in the only place he could buy one -- Knockturn Alley. So Hagrid keeps the wand in his hut. Who do we know might recognize that wand, was in Hagrid's hut for an extended period of time, and had contact with Voldemort? Pettigrew. Peter, the rat, recognizes that wand and when he escapes from the clutches of Harry, Lupin, and Black, he hides out for a while and at some point comes back for the wand, which he then takes to Voldemort. Even if Hagrid notices the wand has gone missing, he can't very well report it because he isn't supposed to have it to begin with! JKR has hinted more than once that Hagrid is careless. And we've seen evidence of his carelessness. I don't think buying a wand in Knockturn Alley would be out of character at all, and it does explain how Voldemort got his wand back. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From unfaithfulpet at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 23:24:29 2002 From: unfaithfulpet at hotmail.com (Darkness Falls) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 23:24:29 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why are *all* Muggles so tolerant of their wizard chi... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47340 >In a message dated 11/27/02 2:15:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, >ra_1013 at yahoo.com writes: > > > Well, I'd imagine there's basically a security measure in place. If, as > > so many of us have postulated, the Muggle-born kids get a visit from an > > adult wizard to explain things to them, then any parents who completely > > freak out about the wizarding world will promptly get memory charmed! ;) > > One would hope, of course, that the charm is simply to wipe out all >memory > > of the wizarding world and the child will go on to Eton or where ever >and > > live a Muggle life. However, a slightly darker version might have the > > Muggle parents' objections Obliviated and their being "convinced" that > > magic is the way to go. Either way, you wind up with parents who won't >be > > spreading the word about the wizarding world. I say just memory charm the muggles who can't keep their traps shut. I mean who would want to endanger their own child be revealing the wizarding world. --"Darkness Falls" From heidit at netbox.com Thu Nov 28 02:36:08 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidi tandy) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:36:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Malfoys and Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01b501c29686$ec48c010$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 47341 > michelle.pagan at colorado.edu said: > > >I'm not sure Lucius cares too much about his son. And Janet replied: > However, I disagree that Lucius doesn't *care* about his son. While I think your comparison between Lucius and Vernon is pretty much spot on, I'm not really sure what you look to in canon as evidence that Lucius cares about Draco. He certainly is critical of him in Borgin & Burkes, he leaves him on his own when drunken Death Eaters are rampaging, and Draco doesn't speak a word in public, other than in Borgin & Burkes, when Lucius is around. His parents leave him at school over Christmas hols when Lucius *knows* that a Basilisk is roaming around the school and it's implied in CoS that on all of Lucius' visits to Hogwarts on various bits of "business" that year, he never spends much time, if any at all, with Draco. Where in canon is the caring? Heidi From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Nov 28 03:12:18 2002 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Anne) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:12:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Snape's Treatment of Draco/Malfoys and Dursleys In-Reply-To: <1038438746.3786.30977.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021128031218.54720.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47342 Actually, Snape's treatment of Draco has bothered me very much ever since we seem to learn that Snape is on Dumbledore's side. This is because I fully believe that Snape knows that Lucius Malfoy is a Death Eater. Although I can't find any canon on this, I never fail to read the books this way (and I ask for anyone's input on this!). At the very least, Snape must know that Lucius is *not* a good man, and he therefore knows that Draco is being raised by an evil father. And how does Snape treat Draco? He indulges him in every way, every time we see any interaction at all! He seems to treat Draco much the same way the Dursleys treat Dudley -- he can see no fault in him. If Snape were really on the good side, and even if he has to keep some sort of cover, he would still have the duty to Draco as his student to set *some* kind of example, or at least treat him with a strict neutrality in regard to the other students. As it is, he is encouraging this boy, who has had very little moral guidance ever, down the path his father has set him on, where who *we* are and what *we* want is of paramount importance. It is this which makes me the most suspicious of Snape, and keeps me from leaping into the Redeemed!Snape camp even though I'd like to. Janet Anderson said: > I agree that Lucius and the Dursleys are very >similar in many ways: they're both bigoted, >thoughtless, and narrow-minded. They're both capable >of cruelty, including to the weak and >helpless. And they both spoil their children rotten >while failing to teach them any manners, ethics, or civilized behavior. > However, I disagree that Lucius doesn't *care* about >his son. And of course the Dursleys care a great deal >about their son also; they just don't >care about *Harry,* because they don't think of him as >a human person with feelings. (Just like the Malfoys >don't think Muggles count as humans.) I agree with this and would just like to add a bit. Yes, Lucius does care about his son, but I think mainly for how Draco reflects on Lucius himself. He wants Draco to be a credit to him, to feed his pride. Draco's purpose in life, as Lucius sees him, is to be the Malfoy heir and to make his father proud. As long as Draco meets expectations, he can be indulged, but he will feel the sting of his father's anger for every failure to make Lucius look good. The gift of the Nimbus 2001's fulfills both of these: Draco gets his racing broom and the coveted position on the Slytherin team, and Lucius gets the prestige of having his son on the team and making him even with Harry Potter. On the other hand, in Borgin and Burkes, he has harsh words for Draco, in front of Mr. Borgin yet, about not getting as good grades as a Muggle-born (Hermione), even though as far as we can tell, he must be doing just fine in school, and Hermione would be impossible for anyone to beat! I contrast all this with the Dursleys' treatment of Dudley which is pure indulgence only. They will see nothing wrong with him, no matter what he does, and give him everything he wants as much they possibly can (i.e. as long as they don't *have* to give it to Harry for fear of wizard wrath-- I am thinking of Dudley's second bedroom here). So many ways to abuse children here -- Draco, Dudley and Harry -- and poor Harry coming out the best of the lot -- who'd have thought? Because, sadly, I think Draco is doomed. Dudley will probably charge through life like a bull, as his father does, getting his way and never being happy, or he will if the plot doesn't scoop him up and do something drastic with him! And Harry, well even if... if... never mind, I don't even want to think about it, but either way, he will choose his way and believe in it, no regrets. Anne (I fear I may be getting a bit incoherent here, but I'm getting ready to have Thanksgiving dinner tomorrow and I'm tired!) ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From pennylin at swbell.net Thu Nov 28 04:12:30 2002 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 22:12:30 -0600 Subject: Sociopathic Sirius? References: Message-ID: <021f01c29694$5e9a4550$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 47343 Hi all -- Judy said: <<<< Sirius, on the other hand, is much more interested in external stimuli. He wants action. He likes socializing and playing jokes. He's not the type who wants to spend his time sitting by himself, lost in thought. The psychological term for this is extroversion.>>>>>>> I agree with you in general, however, I do want to point out that the Sirius you describe, if ever he existed for certain, existed 14 yrs ago ..... before Azkaban. I am not sure if it's the comparison that Hagrid makes between James/Sirius as a pair of "trouble-makers" and the Twins ......but a fair number of people have the definite impression that Sirius likes to "play jokes." That's not canon. He could be a troublemaker but not be keen on practical jokes. The Twins are practical jokers, but they may not be *exactly* the same kind of troublemakers that James and Sirius were. I think most people have the impression that Sirius is more extroverted than introverted, though I expect his time in Azkaban could have made him more introspective on the whole than he might previously have been inclined to be. Judy again: Sirius and PTSD <<<>>>>> As Marina said, I subscribe to the idea that the trauma, the triggering event for Sirius, was the death of the Potters and the escape of Pettigrew. I think you are correct Marina that Monika originally espoused this theory. Marina went on to say: <<<>>>>>>>>> As someone close to me was diagnosed with PTSD in the recent past, I can attest that this sounds quite correct from where I'm sitting. I agree that he likely spent his Azkaban years trapped in a continuous trauma state. Ergh. Judy: <<<>>>>>>> Again, I agree with Marina. We don't see Sirius on a regular basis in GoF, and he certainly has forewarning of impending contact with Harry to prepare himself to put up a front of someone who's functioning quite fully. This doesn't mean that this is actually happening though. I don't expect he's recovered at all, and if he and the other "Old Crowd" members remain in a heightened state of alert for the next few years fighting Voldemort and the DEs, then I rather expect it may be some time before he recovers fully (an idea that Carole and I explored quite fully in our fanfic, ASA). <<<>>>>>>>> I loved him from the point at which his eyes become "over-bright" and he says that he "as good as killed them." I was completely hooked by the time Sirius asked Harry to live with him. He was one of my favorite characters from that point on, as I waited impatiently for GoF to arrive, hoping desperately that he (Sirius) wouldn't be the much-touted death of GoF. I remember reading the final 30 pages of GoF, after Cedric had been killed, completely convinced that Cedric could not have been *the* death .... no, Dementors in the castle ... I was just sure that Sirius would be killed. :::shudders::::: Penny (who has just mentally moved Sirius definitely to the #3 spot....) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Nov 28 05:13:46 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 05:13:46 -0000 Subject: Haben Sie Gewallt das Tri-Wiz Wand? (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47344 The tune was stuck in my head, OK? Haben Sie Gewallt das Tri-Wiz Wand? (GoF, Chap 18) (to the tune of Haben Sie Gehort das Deutsche Band? from Mel Brooks' The Producers) Dedicated to Ashfae NOTE: The original song title can be translated Have You Heard the German Band? My re-rendering is Have You Waved the Tri-Wiz Wand?) THE SCENE: A small Hogwarts classroom, where the Weighing of the Wands is taking place. Present are the five Triwizard judges, the four champions, Rita Skeeter with her meida cohorts, and MR.OLLIVANDER. ARTISTIC LICENSE ALERT: Just as OLLIVANDER is about to make his evaluation, Karkaroff casts a translation spell, which puts OLLIVANDER'S utterances into a (for him) more comprehensible Teutonic idiom OLLIVANDER: Haben sie gewallt das Tri-Wiz Wand Mit a swish Mit a flick Mit a swish-swoosh swish-swoosh flick Aaah, haben sie gewallt das Tri-Wiz Wand Mit a swish Mit a flick Mit a swish-swoosh swish-swoosh flick Durmstrang products und good French batons Can't compare vith a `Vander nine-inch wand I'm sayin'... Haben sie gewallt das Tri-Wiz Wand Mit a bird, mit a rose, mit a quip Veela hair eez zo flighty unt zo flaky It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that Newborn-u'corn-mean-mix-Phoenix-dragon-chat-mit-shnaky...... Yew change! (The FOUR CHAMPIONS join OLLIVANDER in a chorus line) OLLIVANDER & FOUR CHAMPS Ve're sayin'... Haben sie gewallt das Tri-Wiz Wand Mit a wave, mit a whisk, mit a whip... It's ze only kind of magic Zat ze/we four who are in Tourney Love to grip BAGMAN That's our champions! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm Translations via QuickDic http://www.quickdic.de/index_e.html From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Nov 28 05:16:25 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 23:16:25 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why are *all* Muggles so tolerant of their wizard chi... References: Message-ID: <3DE5A6A9.F0EE7D7A@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47345 Darkness Falls wrote: > > >In a message dated 11/27/02 2:15:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, > >ra_1013 at yahoo.com writes: > > > > > Well, I'd imagine there's basically a security measure in place. > If, as > > > so many of us have postulated, the Muggle-born kids get a visit > from an > > > adult wizard to explain things to them, then any parents who > completely > > > freak out about the wizarding world will promptly get memory > charmed! ;) > > > One would hope, of course, that the charm is simply to wipe out > all > >memory > > > of the wizarding world and the child will go on to Eton or where > ever > >and > > > live a Muggle life. However, a slightly darker version might have > the > > > Muggle parents' objections Obliviated and their being "convinced" > that > > > magic is the way to go. Either way, you wind up with parents who > won't > >be > > > spreading the word about the wizarding world. > > I say just memory charm the muggles who can't keep their traps shut. I > mean > who would want to endanger their own child be revealing the wizarding > world. > > --"Darkness Falls" Like.. WHO would believe them? You run out and tell everyone about a secret world of wizards and see if anyone believes you? It takes a wand to even get into Diagon Alley. You got one? How would you prove anything? And how about the fact that people only believe what they want to believe. Even if you got your kid to do magic in front of someone, they would explain it away as something else. The MOM is in fact more paranoid then it even needs to be.. Jazmyn From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Nov 28 05:27:12 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 23:27:12 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: accidental magic References: <8A080AFF-0187-11D7-AAD1-000393065664@bellsouth.net> <009e01c295b9$c6f616a0$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <3DE4550D.56FA4900@pacificpuma.com> <005c01c2966e$dc4e8ea0$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <3DE5A930.B56448D0@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47346 Alina wrote: > > > > > I kinda get the idea that a wizards powers don't really start > > > to kick in till they are at least 10-11 years old. Or they would > > not dare let kids under 11 have wands! > > That's what you said, right? If that was true then Harry's powers > would > never have kicked in, even during stress, and Neville would've gone > "splatter" on the pavement rather than bounced to the road. > > Alina. > What you are missing is the word REALLY in what I said. ie. their powers are weaker, undirected, unreliable and they lack the attention span to focus to learn to properly use it untill they hit about 10-11 years old. Seems that Harry's magical 'incidents' were becoming more and more pronounced as he got older, by the time he was 11, it was time to get him into a school that could help him learn to control it.. Otherwise someone would have sought to train him or others like him at an earlier age... Jazmyn From oppen at mycns.net Thu Nov 28 05:50:18 2002 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 23:50:18 -0600 Subject: Malfoy Money---A Thought Message-ID: <02aa01c296a2$09ed2500$35570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 47347 This is something that just occured to me. How do we _know_ that the Malfoys have gobs and gobs o'money? It could be that one reason that darling Drakie didn't go to Durmstrang is that Hogwarts wouldn't charge fees for his tuition, while Durmstrang _would._ Owning Malfoy Manor doesn't mean much---many very old families had/have ancestral estates that are "entailed," meaning they can't be sold out of the family by wastrel descendants. And even buying those brooms might not mean that the Malfoys have a lot of money. If one of the things they _do_ have is part-ownership of the broom manufactory (broomery?) Malfoy Sr. might have been able to swing the new brooms as part of his perqs, instead of paying cash. Draco's eagle-owl might be like Malfoy Manor---"in the family," but not bought new. And if they do have a house-elf or two, we know that house-elves don't need to be paid, and they could be inherited, the way Winky was. Even if the Malfoys _are_ well-off, compared to the Weasleys, that doesn't mean that they weren't a lot richer in the past. The Malfoys we know might well not be short of the readies, but _feel_ horribly pinched compared to their ancestors. This gives us a reason why they'd follow Voldemort---if Lord V. promised Lucius a return to Those Thrilling Days Of Yesteryear, and to restore the Malfoy fortune to what it was in those times, a Lucius Malfoy who had been brooding about his family's (relative) fall from fortune might well listen. Comments? Acronyms? From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Thu Nov 28 06:36:56 2002 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 01:36:56 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Malfoy Money---A Thought Message-ID: <66.2ac1dd0a.2b171388@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47348 I don't have any comments, but I do have an acronym. It's the very first one I've come up with. I hope it's OK ^^; MALFOY MANOR Many Assets? Lucius's Fortune Of Yore! Malfoy's Are Not Overly Rich! It started out as just MANOR, but I thought it would be a nice touch if I made it MALFOY MANOR. ~Cassie~ What's wrong, Alice? ???My parents are gone... What else is wrong, Alice? ???Something is... broken. What's broken, Alice? ???...I am... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Thu Nov 28 06:53:56 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 01:53:56 EST Subject: magic late in life Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47349 Rob says; >>The MM just detected the use of a Hover Charm in the place where he lived and assumed it was Harry. Unless intelligence has gotten better one would think he would again recieve a similar warning even if Marge did do it herself << I think the difference in the two situations was that in CoS, the Ministry was able to detect an actual ,documented *charm* in opperation. In PoA no specific, recognizable charm or spell was used. Just a burst of uncontroled magic in keeping with the incidents of spontaneous magic which Harry had been setting off ever sice he was placed with the Dursleys as a baby (carrying magic "inherited" from an adult wizard -- not a good or an inconspicuous combination, magically). The first was a clwear case of someone deliberately using magic out of school. The second was just as clearly someone losing control. -JOdel (who, while she recognizes the possiblilty of Petunia or Dudley performing a piece of magic no one would suspect of them, is still inclined to put her money on Filch.) From jodel at aol.com Thu Nov 28 06:53:58 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 01:53:58 EST Subject: Why do 'purebloods' hate Muggles? Message-ID: <197.11524937.2b171786@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47350 Throwing my own two cents into the mix... I suspect that the *real* underlying reason that certain 'purebloods' are so vehemently anti-Muggle, is that Muggles produce Muggle-born wizards. Yes, there is a certain type of pureblood who goes in for Muggle-baiting. (Chiefly because they CAN.) I also suspect that most of them are fairly young when they take up that little pastime, do it in groups -- never one-on-one -- and ultimately grow out of it. (Except when an opportunity offers itself which is altogether too good to pass up.) But the real resentment over Muggles is because Muggles are the source of those damned mudblood wizards who are next to impossible to keep out, because those Muggle-loving fools like Dumbledore keep supporting and including them. Consider; If there were no Muggle-born magical children, there would be no reason for the two worlds ever to meet, unless there are specific trades which deal with Muggle-produced products. And for that, there is no reason to inform one's trading partners of what your abilities might be. The rest of the WW can just shut them out and *forget* about them. But as long as the Muggle population keeps throwing mudbloods, you have to identify the brats, and monitor them to make sure the rest of the pack doesn't get suspicious, and then *educate* them so they can keep their magic under control. And then they want jobs that would better be given to your own kids! And for every mudblood there must be at least a half-dozen Muggles who *know* that the wizarding world exists. And you can't just obliviate the lot of them "because they are *family*!" for Merlin's sale. A walking nightmare of a security breech -- to say nothing of their pernitious ideas which the brats introduce into the Schools, and then it starts getting into the Ministry policy. Puh-leese! -JOdel (Who also suspects that after living among Muggles for centuries, never knowing when their neighbors were going to suddenly turn on them and start howling for their blood, Wizards secluded themselves into their own world the minute magical technology allowed them to do so -- in 1697[?]. And that, consequently, the mindset regarding "Muggles" held by most purebloods is, therefore, about 300 years out of date. Allow me to say that the end of the 17th century was NOT Western Civilization's finest hour...) From catlady at wicca.net Thu Nov 28 07:50:22 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 07:50:22 -0000 Subject: Harry NotAnimagus/Pettigrew Name/Ghosts/DE in MoM/AbusedChildren:Snape&Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47351 Telly wrote: << Does anyone know if Harry or any of the characters in the book might become animagus? >> I am SURE that JKR said in one of her on-line chats that Harry will not become an Animagus. I think she said that none of the Trio will become an Animagus. I can't find the damn transcript via the Goat Pen: Mike, what's wrong? Barb wrote: << It is notable that neither James Potter's name nor Peter Pettigrew's name really point to their Animagus forms, >> Well ... someone pointed out on-list long ago that both Peter (as in 'to peter out') and Pettigrew ('he grew petty') mean to become smaller. I, at least, thought that referred to his soul, shrinking from a courageous, chivalrous Gryffindor to a whining, shrivelled coward/traitor. But it could literally refer to physical size: Wormtail the rat was much smaller than Peter the human. I was impressed by Shauna's observation about 'pet' in Pettigrew sounding like his role as Scabbers, the Weasleys' 'pet'. Thus I am inspired to share my weird thought that the name Pettigrew sounds a little bit like Pedigree. I wish I could think of a way that's meaningful in the midst of so much Pure-blood-ism. Katsmall the Wise wrote: << I believe the MoM has ghosts that enforce it for them - we all know ghosts can affect each other's behaviour, like the Hogwarts ghosts want to kick Peeves out. >> We've been told that the Bloody Baron is the only being who can control Peeves; Peeves is visibly afraid of him. I've speculated that the Bloody Baron is the only ghost at Hogwarts able to do magic (at least the Fat Friar was a wizard: he referred to Hufflepuff as "my old House", but I suppose that most wizards lose the ability to do magic when they die) and therefore able to curse Peeves. I've gone on to wonder WHY he would still be able to do magic; only now have I gotten around to wondering why Peeves isn't equally afraid of all the living wizards. Maybe because the living wizards don't *try* to curse him, except Lupin put the chewing gum up his nose. (Peeves isn't a ghost, he's a poltergeist. In the same scene that you referred to, Nearly Headless Nick said: " He gives us all a bad name and you know, he's not really even a ghost -- " << I believe that Avada Kedavra also doesn't let ghosts be, otherwise Harry's parents would take care of him. >> It is disputable whether James and Lily could have become ghosts in the Potterverse. The Goat Pen found the interview: http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript1.htm " Q: What makes some witches/wizards become ghosts after they die and some not? JKR: You don't really find that out until Book VII, but I can say that the happiest people do not become ghosts. As you might guess, Moaning Myrtle!" This goes back to the question of "what is happiness?" that I meowed at Pippin in IIRC my latest previous post. Of course, James and Lily wouldn't be HAPPY about dying young and leaving their baby an orphan, but they were cheerful people when alive, they were in love, they lived nobly and died bravely -- that meets certain definitions of Happiness! However, there has been discussion on list of why AVADA KEDAVRA is UNFORGIVEABLE. People have suggested that it destroys the victim's soul (like being soul-sucked by a Dementor) as well as his life. In the Potterverse, is the soul what becomes a ghost or goes to the next world? It has also been suggested that AVADA KEDAVRA turns the person into a ghost who is trapped inside the curser's wand until released by Priori Incantatem or maybe by breaking the wand... Abigail wrote; << Even if there were still DEs in the Ministry (and not that I'm suggesting that there couldn't be but have we ever had canon evidence that there are?) >> Abigail, I agree with many of your points, but this is a nitpick. We know from canon that McNair is a Death Eater (GoF) and that he is employed as an executioner for the Committee for the Disposal of Dangerous Creatures of the Ministry (PoA). Shane wrote: << It seems to me that Snape has a lot of demons, and I believe that many of them are deeply personal, possibly familial in nature. (snip) characteristic of an individual who has experienced an insecure attachment to a parent or significant adult, or who has suffered abuse or even neglect during the formative, developmental years. (snip) I'd love to hear other listie's thoughts. >> I agree. In my universe, Snape comes from an old wizarding family with a long history of dabbling in Dark Arts. His parents found children extremely boring but felt a duty to pass on the family name. They were always cold to him, very stern, condemning any sign of "softness", and the only times they ever seemed pleased with him were when he learned a new curse from the books in the family library or when he brought home a straight-A report card. However, I did provide him with a loving nanny for his first four years, to give him the basis for having a conscience, love, redemption, a *possibility* of happiness. Eloise wrote: << my own Snape backstory does have him coming from an emotionally deprived background with a cold father (and an ineffective or absent mother) for whom nothing was ever good enough and his turning to Voldemort at least in part in the search for an adequate father-figure, Dumbledore having apparently failed him. >> Just as I don't see Snape as Gleeful!Sadist, I have yet to see him turning *to* Voldemort. I see him *brought* to Voldemort by a person (Lucius, Karkaroff, whoever) on whom he had projected a ton of transference (father-figure, etc). "Turning to Voldemort" = X% infatuation on that person who was already working for Voldemort + 100-X% turning away from Dumbledore in a fury. Grey Wolf wrote, of Christopher Nuttall's concern that leaving Harry with Dursleys interfered with him learning lots of magic to fight Voldemort: << If you force a child to learn everything he can to save the world, you destoy any chance to ever be a person. He might as well become paranoic and without any sense of morality. >> Becoming paranoic and without any sense of morality would be a likely result of leaving a child with abusive Dursleys in real life. From dileas at rogers.com Thu Nov 28 02:26:28 2002 From: dileas at rogers.com (mmgardin) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 02:26:28 -0000 Subject: Dementors Helping the DEs and the Two Franks (WAS: Dementors' Kiss) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47352 I (Marcia) wrote: > In modification then, of Neville's poor memory due to memory > charms, I think the memory that was blocked was of his parents > receiving the Dementors' Kiss. Phyllis ("erisedstraeh2002")wrote: >An interesting theory, but I tend to take Dumbledore's statement that >the Longbottoms were tortured into insanity at face value. I can't >think of a reason why Dumbledore would tell Harry they were tortured >when they were actually Kissed, since Harry knows all about the Kiss >by this point. My response: Dumbledore doesn't actually say outright that the Longbottoms were tortured into insanity. In one paragraph he does in fact state that the Longbottoms were tortured and in another paragraph he tells Harry that they are not dead ? they are insane. If he wanted to say that the torture session was to blame for their current mental condition, he could have easily done so, but to me, he doesn't outright draw a causal link between the two events. To me, this leaves just enough room for JKR to gloss over all the gory details concerning the Longbottoms until she sees fit to reveal the whole story. I too feel that Dumbledore's words should be taken at face value for the most part .In GOF The Beginning when addressing the students at the Leaving Feast, Dumbledore says, "It is my belief, however, that the truth is generally preferable to lies, " While I really don't want to start a philosophical discussion about truth and Dumbledore's disclosure motivations, I don't think that Dumbledore is compromising his integrity with regard to truth by not telling Harry the whole truth about the Longbottoms. Yes, he knows that Harry is aware of the Dementors' Kiss, but Neville may not even be aware of the whole truth. Dumbledore told Harry as much as Harry needed to know without telling him more information than was available to Neville. Btw, I do believe that the Longbottoms were tortured with the Cruciatus curse, I just also believe that it was the Kiss that led to their insanity. I think that the reason the Kiss wasn't mentioned during the trial scenes in The Pensieve, was probably due to lack of evidence. Prior Incantato would have implicated the perpetrator's wands as those used to administer Cruciatus curse. I haven't found anything in canon to suggest that the Dementors' Kiss is traceable though (but the thought and mental picture of the Dementors having to fill out Ministry forms in triplicate every time they administer a Kiss is highly amusing to me). Marcia again: > Speculating, I'm guessing that the Death Eaters use the Dementors > as a way to quiet their victims. Phyllis again: >While the Ministry of Magic has its faults, I don't >think they would put creatures that were previously affiliated with >the DEs in charge of guarding the DEs. My response: This puts me in a bit of a bad situation ? I am not really a big supporter of the Fudge is evil camp, believing instead that his purpose is to illustrate what happens when good men do nothing. However, I'm cautiously coming to realize that Fudge must either be evil or incredibly stupid. GOF The Pensieve p.511 `Ah I was forgetting you don't like the Dementors, do you, Albus?' said Moody, with a sardonic smile. `No,' said Dumbledore calmly, `I'm afraid I don't. I have long felt the Ministry is wrong to ally itself with such creatures.' GOF The Death Eaters p.564 `The Lestranges should stand here,' said Voldemort quietly. The Dementors will join us they are our natural allies GOF The Parting of the Ways p.614 `The rest of us sleep less soundly in our beds, Cornelius, knowing that you have put Lord Voldemort's most dangerous supporters in the care of creatures who will join him the instant he asks them!' said Dumbledore. What these references tell me, is that both Dumbledore and Voldemort consider the Dementors to be on Voldemort's side and perhaps more importantly that, Fudge was responsible for placing them at Azkaban. Dumbledore's use of the word "you" in that last reference is grammatically ambiguous. He could either mean "you" as in second person plural (The Ministry) or "you" as in second person singular (Fudge himself). By mentioning Cornelius' name in the first part of the sentence though, I believe "you" means Cornelius himself. Also, if Fudge is a DE, what better morsel of good DE deed could he offer Voldemort than to be able to say `Ok I know I didn't come looking for you, but hey ? I was looking out for the faithful DEs but placing the Dementors at Azkaban.' I also find it disturbing that Fudge was able to very quickly summon a dementor to Hogwarts "for protection" when interviewing ([sic] as no interview actually took place between Fudge and Crouch Jr.). So I guess that's it ? I am stating for the record that The Ministry and Fudge did in fact know the risks associated with putting the Dementors in charge of Azkaban and they went ahead and did it anyway. Marcia From mn_emily at hotmail.com Thu Nov 28 05:34:19 2002 From: mn_emily at hotmail.com (Emily F) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 23:34:19 -0600 Subject: Why do 'purebloods' hate Muggles? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47353 Dave said: I think maybe they're remembering all those centuries that Muggles persecuted Witches and Wizards, and they can't let bygones be bygones. Maybe they even fear a return of "The Burning Times" if their existance became generally known to 21st century Muggles. Me: That's what I thought at first. But then I realized that the only people harmed by Muggles during the witch persecution times were the Muggles who were falsely accused. (And wouldn't some in the WW be pleased with that?) We know that true witches (and wizards, of course) could protect themselves from burning, and I'm sure it's not a stretch to think they could protect themselves from other means of executions. Finally, what was the result of this persecution? Witches and wizards were forced to use magic in secret? Weren't they already doing that??? Dumbledore talks about keeping magic hidden from Muggles so that Muggles don't seek out magical answers to their problems. There's no mention of fear of persecution. So, while no one likes living under persecution, there doesn't seem to be any harm done. I think those in the WW who hate Muggles (not just purebloods!) do so merely because they see them as inferior. Even Arthur enjoys the ways Muggles try to live life without magic, which I find somewhat degrading. But I don't feel too bad, I bet can still play guitar better than the whole WW combined. ;-) Happy Thanksgiving! Emily _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From rpquate at earthlink.net Thu Nov 28 06:05:46 2002 From: rpquate at earthlink.net (redandgoldlion) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 06:05:46 -0000 Subject: Flesh-eating slug repellent Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47354 Okay, I'm not very good at posting messages so please bear with me. I'm sure this topic has already been discussed, but I can't find it in the archives. If someone would point me in the direction of this discussion, I'll be very thankful. In CoS when Harry is in Knockturn Alley, he runs into Hagrid. Now when Harry asks Hagrid what he's doing there, Hagrid says something like,I'm getting flesh eating slug repellent because they slugs are ruining the school cabbages (sorry I can't site that, I don't have my book with me). I was wondering why *flesh* eating slugs would be eating *cabbages.* When I looked up "flesh" on dictionary.com it brought up: flesh ( P ) Pronunciation Key (flsh)n. 1) a.The soft tissue of the body of a vertebrate, covering the bones and consisting mainly of skeletal muscle and fat. b.The surface or skin of the human body. 2)The meat of animals as distinguished from the edible tissue of fish or fowl. 3)Botany. The pulpy, usually edible part of a fruit or vegetable. 4)Excess fatty tissue; plumpness. 5)a.The body as opposed to the mind or soul. b.The physical or carnal nature of humankind. c.Sensual appetites. 6.Humankind in general; humanity. 7.One's family; kin. 8.Substance; reality: "The maritime strategy has an all but unstoppable institutional momentum behind it... that has given force and flesh to the theory" (Jack Beatty). I suppose Rowling could have meant, "The pulpy, usually edible part of a fruit or vegetable," but I somehow feel she meant us to think she was talking about animal flesh. I don't know if Mrs. Rowling just hadn't thought about it, or if it's suppose to be a clue to some future plot. What was Hagrid *really* doing in Knockturn Alley? Chances are, I just grossly misinterpreted something. Please share your thoughts with me. :-) ~redandgoldlion~ (who wishes she had a Dave Barry quote to add) From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Nov 28 07:38:44 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 07:38:44 -0000 Subject: Why are *all* Muggles so tolerant of their wizard chi... In-Reply-To: <3DE5A6A9.F0EE7D7A@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47355 Jazmyn: > Like.. WHO would believe them? You run out and tell everyone about a > secret world of wizards and see if anyone believes you? It takes a wand > to even get into Diagon Alley. You got one? How would you prove > anything? And how about the fact that people only believe what they > want to believe. Even if you got your kid to do magic in front of > someone, they would explain it away as something else. The MOM is in > fact more paranoid then it even needs to be.. Indeed. They'd consider it a *trick* - you know, all those carlatan tricks that fool the eye... A Muggle seeing magic would only think that and wonder how the trick was done. But the forbidden underage magic is there to encertain that the parents don't use their kids as a show-off. That would be the temptation Muggle parents would find hard to resist (though Lily *did* seem to transfigure teacups at home - did she do a carlatan trick only Petunia could figure out?) Also, more importantly, why should a parent prevent a child from improving a talent the child has, just because the parent doesn't happen to have it? Not just magic, but any creative, artistic talent where the kid is a real genius in... A parent is usually proud enough when it's not generally admitted geniusness, but when an *expert* of a say, music-school says the kid has talent and *invites* their child to the school - the fact that a school *invites* the kid, no need to send an application... I think the parents would be proud indeed. Like Lily and Petunia's parents: they were proud to have a witch in a family. Besides, schooling in magical school would mean less magical accidents if any; no uncontrolled_magic-caused trouble in school... -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Nov 28 07:50:58 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 07:50:58 -0000 Subject: Has Fudge Heard of Curse Scars as Alarm Bells? (WAS: Fudge and Curse Scars) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47356 Phyllis: > Yes, I'm referring to the UK "adult version" paperback edition of GoF > which has the wand order problem corrected (2001 edition). It just > really seems to me that from the context, Fudge is disagreeing with > Dumbledore (he starts by saying "You'll forgive me, Dumbledore..."), > so I'm convinced that the "never" should have been in there. But it > is a bit of a mystery, since as you say, the UK versions are usually > better at correcting errors than the US versions. Actually, 'never' should not be there: To me, it reads that Fudge /has/ heard of curse-scars as acting alarm bells, but doesn't consider them as valid. He heard this probably from Moody, who most certainly has *lots* of curse-scars warning him AND has a reputation as a paranoid loony. But it's not paranoia if they really ARE after you... (which might be the case). -- Finwitch From catlady at wicca.net Thu Nov 28 09:13:11 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 09:13:11 -0000 Subject: Why do 'purebloods' hate Muggles? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47357 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Emily F" wrote: > That's what I thought at first. But then I realized that the only > people harmed by Muggles during the witch persecution times were > the Muggles who were falsely accused. (And wouldn't some in the > WW be pleased with that?) We know that true witches (and wizards, > of course) could protect themselves from burning, and I'm sure it's > not a stretch to think they could protect themselves from other > means of executions. Finally, what was the result of this > persecution? Witches and wizards were forced to use magic in > secret? Weren't they already doing that??? Dumbledore talks > about keeping magic hidden from Muggles so that Muggles don't seek > out magical answers to their problems. There's no mention of fear > of persecution. No, it was HAGRID who said that wizards keep secret to avoid being pestered by Muggles wanting magical help. When it comes to Magical History, I have more faith in Professor Binns's accuracy than in Hagrid's. In CoS, Binns said: "You all know, of course, that Hogwarts was founded over a thousand years ago - the precise date is uncertain - by the four greatest witches and wizards of the age. The four school Houses are named after them: Godric Gryffindor, Helga Hufflepuff, Rowena Ravenclaw, and Salazar Slytherin. They built this castle together, far from prying Muggle eyes, for it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much persecution." Let me repeat: "witches and wizards suffered much persecution." It seems to me that wizarding schools are just as good as Muggle schools at teaching self-flattering lies to children. In this case, that the reason for hiding from Muggles is to avoid being pestered when it really is fear of persecution. That Muggle persecution of magical people is useless because the magical people have the Flame-Freezing Charm, when it is really quite dangerous if the Muggles get hold of a mage without his wand, sneak up on him and jump him with more numbers of assailants than he can Curse before they get his wand away from him, and then tie him up, THEN burn him. While I have the notion firmly in my head that Salazar Slytherin was a bad guy and surely at least partly a racist, Binns's statement was: "He disliked taking students of Muggle parentage, believing them to be untrustworthy." Simply a security precaution, fear that the Muggleborn students might let information about Hogwarts and wizards leak to their Muggle relatives, who would then spread the info to other Muggles, some of whom would lead mobs of peasants with torches to kill the wizards. From heidit at netbox.com Thu Nov 28 09:53:22 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidi tandy) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 04:53:22 -0500 Subject: Sirius and PTSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <023801c296c4$00718030$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 47358 > -----Original Message----- > From: Judy [mailto:judyshapiro at directvinternet.com] Marina said: > > I don't think Azkaban is the traumatizing event for Sirius. > I think the traumatizing event is his discovery of James and > Lily's deaths and Peter's betrayal.< While I think Marina is on the right track here, given that PTSD is generally a disorder that exists only when there's been a threat to one's personal safety or where one witnesses a threat to another, I think that Sirius' traumatizing event may've been both of the above, compounded by the fact that when he arrived at Godric's Hollow, and realised Harry was alive, he did not yet realise or understand that he and Harry were no longer in danger from Voldemort. We, with the perspective of the narrative, often forget that it's likely that Sirius walked to the ruins of the house not knowing if there was still a threat to himself contained therein, or that after his discovery of Harry (who had a visible head injury) he still didn't know if Voldemort or any other Death Eaters were lying in wait and preparing another ambush. Then, of course, watching Peter murder a slew of Muggles, in an event that again put Sirius' life in danger (he couldn't've known until it actually happened that Peter wasn't going to hurt *him* physically) and the immediate incarceration without trial were compounding events - in fact, I would think that the only mitigating event of the whole time period would've been his knowledge that Harry was under Dumbledore's protection and safe in the "blood relative" protection at his Aunt's house (whether or not he knew that Petunia and Lily didn't get along, it probably wouldn't've occurred to him at the time that they'd be as cruel as they were). Judy replied: > This is a very interesting theory, although I still have > trouble connecting Sirius' behavior in PoA with his behavior > in GoF. If he has only partially recovered, I don't see why > his behavior should be so different. I also have trouble > seeing Sirius as having the symptoms of PTSD in *either* of > the books. For example, anxiety symptoms are a hallmark of > PTSD, but as far as I can tell, Sirius doesn't show much > anxiety. However, I agree that we don't have complete > information about Sirius' behavior, so perhaps he has these > symptoms and we just don't see them. How else would you describe his pleas to Harry to keep him posted about anything unusual? Or what about his insistance on Harry becoming as proficient at all the charms and spells he could, to get through the Tri-Wizard tournament safely? Or his regular owls back and forth with Dumbledore? Or even his decision to take the incalculatable risk to go back to Hogsmeade, where less than a year before the whole town had been on the watch for him, to live in a cave and eat rats, simply to be near Harry, who he thought to be in danger? If those are actions of someone suffering no anxiety symptoms, I do wonder what you think someone anxious would do. I admit that I haven't done extensive research into PTSD since 1996, so it's been a while and I'm not perfectly familiar with the recent research, but I went back to some of my older notes today and pulled a few things that go specifically to the concerns Judy raises above. First and foremost is the belief some laypeople have that PTSD should cause constant manifestations of the symptoms of PTSD. However, PTSD results in three main categories of symptoms, but only one of them is deemed a "constant" - and that, as I discussed in the first paragraph of this reply, is the "anxiety" issue. "Hyperarousal" reflects a constant expectation of danger. "Intrusion" is the second sympton, and it refers to the lingering imprint of trauma on mental processes. Traumatic memories are separated off from other life memories, and are stored not in verbal and contextual form but as "vivid sensations and images" sometimes re-enacted unconsciously in behaviors. "Constriction" refers to the numbing of feelings, a natural response to pain. Now, given that no Muggles have suffered a period of "Dementor-intervention" simultaneous with suffering PTSD, it's hard to assess perfectly the impact of that on the constriction symptom, and I am willing to give JKR a little allowance on that simply because she has to fit the symptoms in and around her narrative. Sirius' behaviour in the Shack, which is the only time in canon that he's been in a position to relate the events of the night of James and Lily's murder, can evidence, in his kinetic and abrupt movements, intrusion symptoms. And of course, hyperarousal is related directly to anxiety. A 1999 article which has some interesting graphs about baseline and arousal states says this: During familiar routines the patterns of neuronal activity in the brain (especially in the regulatory systems in the brain) are familiar and similar to previously stored 'templates' of activation - that is, in equilibrium. Traumatic events disrupt these patterns, causing disequilibrium. Patterns of neuronal activity present during the traumatic experience are unlike those present during routine daily activities and therefore will influence and alter functioning from the cortex (cognition) to the brainstem (core physiological state regulation). (http://207.235.43.156/CTAMATERIALS/Memories.ASP) Although the article focuses on children, there are some very interesting case studies about children who witness homicides or the aftermaths thereof, and it's a good narrative read on the range of manifestations of PTSD and related disorders. heidi From wynnde1 at aol.com Thu Nov 28 09:54:47 2002 From: wynnde1 at aol.com (wynnde1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 04:54:47 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] (Was: Dementors' Kiss) Message-ID: <34.30f015ed.2b1741e7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47359 From wynnde1 at aol.com Thu Nov 28 10:03:14 2002 From: wynnde1 at aol.com (wynnde1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 05:03:14 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Names - Florence/Firenze (Was: Dementors' Kiss) Message-ID: <198.11529429.2b1743e2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47360 Hello Everyone, Marcia wrote: >One last thought that has also bothered me from the beginning ? >JKR loves to give her characters interesting and telling names. Why >then, has she used the name Frank twice (Frank Longbottom and Frank >Bryce)? I've racked my brain trying to elucidate a connection >between those 2 characters and come up with nothing. I'd love to >hear any ideas anyone has on this. I agree with your comment about JKR and names, and there's another set of names in the story that I've long wondered about, and haven't seen discussed here on the list. Florence (the one that Bertha Jorkins spied on kissing someone behind the greenhouses - as we learn in the Penseive scene in GoF), and Firenze the Centaur. Firenze is the name of a city in Italy, the same city which we call Florence in the English language. JKR strikes me as being well-read, etc., so I would be surprised if she did not know the connection between the two. So, is Florence a centaur herself, or does she have some connection to the centaurs? Or maybe she was kissing Firenze? Both of these things seem a bit far-fetched to me, and there's no canon I can think of at all which connect the two other than their names. Still, I'll be watching to see if a connection appears in some future book. :-) Wendy (Who LOVES Firenze - the city - and would really love to live there one day. And who apologises to the mods for the post previous to this one - somehow I hit a key which sent the message before I'd even started writing it). :-) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidit at netbox.com Thu Nov 28 10:24:51 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidi tandy) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 05:24:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Treatment of Draco In-Reply-To: <20021128031218.54720.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <026a01c296c8$6634b0f0$0301a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 47361 > Real-To: Anne > > Actually, Snape's treatment of Draco has bothered me > very much ever since we seem to learn that Snape is on > Dumbledore's side. This is because I fully believe that > Snape knows that Lucius Malfoy is a Death Eater. > Although I can't find any canon on this, I never fail > to read the books this way (and I ask for anyone's > input on this!). I had thought similarly until the end of Goblet of Fire, where Snape grips his arm in a startled manner upon hearing Harry mention Lucius' name as one who was at Voldemort's circle that night. At that point, I actually did think that perhaps Snape did believe Lucius when he said whatever he said to avoid prosecution or public disparagement for being a Death Eater. However, that doesn't mean that Snape thinks Lucius is an all around nice guy. While there seems to be an impication in the books that the general student population does not know that Ginny was posessed by an incarnation of Voldemort, and that she opened the Chamber and let the monster loose, I think the staff does know it, and because of this, at least in Books 3 and 4, Snape would then know that Draco's father was perfectly willing to let loose something at Hogwarts that could kill students - even possibly his own son. So when Anne says, > At the very least, Snape must know > that Lucius is *not* a good man, and he therefore > knows that Draco is being raised by an evil father. I agree. However... > And how does Snape treat Draco? He indulges him in > every way, every time we see any interaction at all! > He seems to treat Draco much the same way the Dursleys > treat Dudley -- he can see no fault in him. This is a bit of a "yes, but..." First of all, if Draco really is more-than-competent at stewing his slugs or cutting his ingredients, then what's wrong with making an example of him? When Hermione gets points for doing things well in class, we never think anything negative about it - why shouldn't Draco get the same "benefit" if he really is doing well? Snape tries to modulate Draco in a nonconfrontational way in Book 2, when Draco suggests that Snape become headmaster: <<"Now, now, Malfoy," said Snape, though he couldn't suppress a thinlipped smile. "Professor Dumbledore has only been suspended by the governors. I daresay he'll be back with us soon enough.">> In one way this could be described as indulgent in comparison with his usual tone towards Harry, but he's also not giving Draco any public encouragement on this matter, which would be what someone who was fully indulgent would do. I also wouldn't describe their interaction at the Dueling Club as indulgent - it's more like Snape is using Draco to try and test and/or unnerve Harry (hence the snake spell that Snape teaches Draco on the spot while Lockhart is being incompetent with Harry). We've really only seen a tiny smidge of Draco's interaction with Snape - we don't know what Snape's reaction was to Draco losing points and getting detention in Book 1, or being transformed into a ferret in Book 4 (although given Snape's feelings towards Moody, one could guess that he might not blame Draco entirely for getting on Moody's bad side), or even regarding the Buckbeak Incident in Book 3. We just don't have that level of information, so to say that his treatment of Draco parallels the way the Dursleys treat Dudly, I think, makes Snape look like a bit of an idiot. > > If Snape were really on the good side, and even if he > has to keep some sort of cover, he would still have > the duty to Draco as his student to set *some* kind of > example, or at least treat him with a strict > neutrality in regard to the other students. As it is, > he is encouraging this boy, who has had very little > moral guidance ever, down the path his father has set > him on, where who *we* are and what *we* want is of > paramount importance. It is this which makes me the > most suspicious of Snape, and keeps me from leaping > into the Redeemed!Snape camp even though I'd like to. > Why are you so sure that he's encouraging Draco to think the same way Lucius does about Muggles and Mudbloods? Because of what Draco said on the train on the way back to London at the end of Book 4? Or something else? Couldn't you say, just as intensively, that Dumbledore has an obligation to ensure that all students have groundings in the ethical use of magic? So far, we haven't seen any effort by the headmaster to educate any of the students, in a structured setting, about the truly dark days when Voldemort was on the ascent, or about what magic should and should not be used for, except possibly his speech about Cedric at the end of Goblet of Fire. And may I point out that when he asked everyone to raise their glasses in Cedric's memory - Draco did so, as did every other student in the school. (Anne - I am snipping the rest of your post about Lucius "caring" towards Draco, but I do pretty much agree with it entirely, hence the snipping, as I'd only be leaving it to say, "me too!") Heidi From potter76 at libero.it Thu Nov 28 11:55:09 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 12:55:09 +0100 (ora solare Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Malfoy Money---A Thought References: <02aa01c296a2$09ed2500$35570043@hppav> Message-ID: <3DE6041D.000001.49925@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 47362 Eric: How do we _know_ that the Malfoys have gobs and gobs of money? [cut] Me: Your points arguing that The Malfoys may not be very rich are all very plausible but GoF ch 36 p 613 UK ed. Fudge talking of Lucius " A very old family...donation to excellent causes" Donations, something rich people do to buy a respectable image. I'm sure it's said somewhere else too by someone different that Malfoy bought his freedom and I'm also sure that somewhere in passing is said that they *are* rich but at the moment memory fails me. I confide in other people to quote the relevant canon. R. From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Nov 28 14:22:47 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 08:22:47 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flesh-eating slug repellent References: Message-ID: <3DE626B7.4C7D37AC@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47363 redandgoldlion wrote: > > Okay, I'm not very good at posting messages so please bear with me. > I'm sure this topic has already been discussed, but I can't find it > in the archives. If someone would point me in the direction of this > discussion, I'll be very thankful. > In CoS when Harry is in Knockturn Alley, he runs into Hagrid. Now > when Harry asks Hagrid what he's doing there, Hagrid says something > like,I'm getting flesh eating slug repellent because they slugs are > ruining the school cabbages (sorry I can't site that, I don't have my > book with me). I was wondering why *flesh* eating slugs would be > eating *cabbages.* When I looked up "flesh" on dictionary.com it > brought up: > As it turned out, he got the stuff for the mandrakes. Maybe he was joking about cabbages... Jazmyn From sarahlearmonth at tiscali.co.uk Thu Nov 28 10:53:12 2002 From: sarahlearmonth at tiscali.co.uk (Sarah Learmonth) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:53:12 -0000 Subject: Muggles tolerant of wizarding children? Message-ID: <004e01c296cc$59c3e3a0$6b8e403e@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 47364 Jazmyn wrote >I would think that anyone with wizards in their family >would know they had them and that info passed down. >Muggles don't spontaneously produce wizard kids, they >had to inherit those magical genes from somewhere. >Possibly both parents would have to carry the 'recessive' >gene as well, assuming its a recessive gene as it skips >generations sometimes. So even if one parent was >adopted/fostered/orphaned and didn't know about >having wizarding in their bloodlines, its likely the other >one might know. Now me A parent with a recessive gene need not know that they carry it. To take an example, in the caucasian population the most common recessive disease is cystic fibrosis. One in 25 of the population carry this gene but only 1 in 2500 live births result in a child with cystic fibrosis. And most of those occur to parents with no family history of the disease. Now obviously once a couple have had a child with cystic fibrosis then they and their immediate family are more aware of the disease and may well get tested to see if they too carry the gene. So in terms of magic genes. Someone with one magical gene would need to mate with someone else with the gene. They would have a 1 in 4 chance of producing a magical child, the same chance of a child with no magical genes and a 1 in 2 chance of a child with one magical gene. So much more likely never to become aware of the potential for magic and to continue on their muggle way. And if there is genetic testing for magical genes then those familes who are totally opposed to magic could be checked and, um, modified so as not to produce anymore magical children. Just a thought Iarmain [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cressida_tt at hotmail.com Thu Nov 28 14:32:17 2002 From: cressida_tt at hotmail.com (Diane) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 14:32:17 -0000 Subject: Malfoy Money---A Thought In-Reply-To: <3DE6041D.000001.49925@i3a2c5> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47365 Refarding the Malfoy money. Reference is made directly to this in the CoS. Malfoy senior purchased a set of top of the range Nimbus 2001 broomsticks for the Slytherin team at presumably great expense. Later in the same book the Weasleys make reference to this and refer to the fact that Draco has a rich father who bought him into the team. There may be other references in the books but this is the first thing that springs to my mind. Diane From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Thu Nov 28 16:56:22 2002 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (edisbevan) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 16:56:22 -0000 Subject: Lit Crit on Harry (was: "Harry Potter's World") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47366 "Tim Regan" asked about Elizabeth E. Heilman's collection "Harry Potter's World: Multidisciplinary Critical Perspectives". I didnt see any responses from anyone who checked it out but there is a discussion of Literary Critics exploration of the Potterverse on the Popular and Political Cultures webpages at: http://www.poppolitics.com/articles/2002-11-15-harrypotter.shtml The overall discussion is well grounded in canon, see in particular her line on Hermione. It also cross-references a certain archive and gives a puff for a certain Harry Potter symposium. Edis Citations: The article starts: >>> Eliza T. Dresang, a professor in the School of Information Studies at Florida State University, is an expert on -- and a fan of -- the Harry Potter series. Dresang has visited some of the sites in England where scenes were shot for the film Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. Days before the release of the second film, Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, her ticket already purchased, she talked with PopPolitics about the complexity of the books, the strength of Hermione, and why Harry Potter is loved worldwide. <<< >>> (Interviewer) How will the series be regarded in the future? Is Harry Potter already considered a classic? (Dresang) An unparalleled number of academics have taken an interest in Harry Potter. Already 20 to 25 full-length books -- not all scholarly by any means -- have been written. I like to say, as a colleague of mine from the University of Wisconsin once posited, that a classic is something that's infinitely discussible. Though people say you don't know for 30 years or so if something will be a classic, the fact that adult scholars can take issue with one another and provide evidence from the books to support their arguments is quite remarkable. I can't believe that that much could have been written in such a short period of time and people aren't going to continue with it. Yes, I believe the Potter books will be counted among the classics written for or appropriated by youth. (snip) (interviewer) What happens after the last volume is published? It looks like a lot of fans might face withdrawal. (Dresang) Definitely -- although young Harry Potter fans seem to have an insatiable appetite for rereading the books, and for re-viewing the movies, too, I'm sure. So they may just start over again when the last one is in place. It is a lesson that we all have to learn ultimately: All good things must come to an end. But that is nothing to worry about now -- there are three books and possibly five movies to go. By the time they're done, the original child readers may have joined the legions of adults who are committed Harry Potter fans -- and that's when the classic status takes over! <<< From editor at texas.net Thu Nov 28 17:02:30 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:02:30 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flesh-eating slug repellent References: <3DE626B7.4C7D37AC@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <006901c29700$07b51fa0$7b04a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 47367 > redandgoldlion wrote: an excellent question which had been niggling at me and never rose to the surface, about why flesh-eating slugs would be eating cabbage (giving rise to the inevitable, "*was* that why Hagrid was there...?" Jazmyn responded > > As it turned out, he got the stuff for the mandrakes. Maybe he was > joking about cabbages... *sirens go off* L.O.O.N. alert! Movie poisoning! I may be wrong (given that I haven't read the books start-to-finish in a rather long time and I'm short on sleep with sick kids), but I *think* this comes from a side mention in the movie, and is not in the books. Someone with more time and no sick children or a better memory want to go check? ~Amanda From editor at texas.net Thu Nov 28 17:09:23 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:09:23 -0600 Subject: L.O.O.N. point, was Re: Snape's Treatment of Draco References: <026a01c296c8$6634b0f0$0301a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: <008501c29700$e6dafa60$7b04a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 47368 ::enter Amanda, dancing a little happy dance because Heidi hardly *ever* makes mistakes like this and it's so fun to catch the pros (must be the cranberry sauce):: Heidi said, in reference to something or other: > I had thought similarly until the end of Goblet of Fire, where Snape > grips his arm in a startled manner upon hearing Harry mention Lucius' > name as one who was at Voldemort's circle that night. AHA! L.O.O.N. on deck! Two instances are being confused here. 1. Snape grips his arm reflexively when he is talking in the hall to Crouch!Moody (in the middle of the night when Harry's caught in the step under the Cloak and Snape's office alarm [or whatever] has woken him when someone was rifling his office, etc.), and Moody makes that comment about spots that never come off (or some words to that effect. 2. Snape makes "a sudden movement" when Harry mentions Lucius' name during the confrontation scene with Fudge, but we are not told what the movement was. Sorry, no page numbers, this is from memory. Must go make manicotti now (our guest is bringing a smoked turkey breast, so why duplicate? I make *killer* manicotti). ~Amanda, happy L.O.O.N. From mb2910 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 28 16:54:06 2002 From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (meira_q) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 16:54:06 -0000 Subject: Malfoy Money---A Thought In-Reply-To: <02aa01c296a2$09ed2500$35570043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47369 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > This is something that just occured to me. > How do we _know_ that the Malfoys have gobs and gobs o'money? It could be that one reason that darling Drakie didn't go to Durmstrang is that Hogwarts wouldn't charge fees for his tuition, while Durmstrang _would._ My opinion: We do not know for certain that the Malfoys have "gobs and gobs o'money". Lucius and Narcissa strike me as not being perhaps the "perfect" parents, but I think they want their son to recieve the best education he cat get, and if they have to chose between Durmstrang and Hogwarts, I think they would chose Hogwarts for a few reasons: from what I understand about Durmstrang, they emphasize the Dark Arts far more than any other subject, and if indeed Draco's parents care for him as far as educating the sole heir (unless JKR has been leaving out some *major* facts about the Malfoy family *g*) for his role in life, then they would want him to have as broad an education and learning as possible. There is no evidence in canon about Hogwarts charging fees to study there, but I do not think that this is the reason why Draco goes there and not to Durmstrang. > Owning Malfoy Manor doesn't mean much---many very old families had/have ancestral estates that are "entailed," meaning they can't be sold out of the family by wastrel descendants. And even buying those brooms might not mean that the Malfoys have a lot of money. If one of the things they _do_ have is part-ownership of the broom manufactory (broomery?) Malfoy Sr. might have been able to swing the new brooms as part of his perqs, instead of paying cash. ummm, just a thought, but having a part-ownership of a broom manufactury would make them very rich indeed, if we take into account the price of the Firebolt, for example (we do not know the actual price, but I assume it to be extremely expensive), and assuming that flying on broomsitcks is one of the major ways of transportation, as well as a very important part of Quidditch. So, if their wealth is not "old" and hereditary, then it at least comes from this factory. I do not think that Lucius would so readily give away 7 perfectly good and new Nimbus 2001's just so his son can be in the Quidditch team, if all they had is a part-ownership of said factory. > Draco's eagle-owl might be like Malfoy Manor---"in the family," but not bought new. And if they do have a house-elf or two, we know that house-elves don't need to be paid, and they could be inherited, the way Winky was. > Even if the Malfoys _are_ well-off, compared to the Weasleys, that doesn't mean that they weren't a lot richer in the past. The Malfoys we know might well not be short of the readies, but _feel_ horribly pinched compared to their ancestors. This might be possible, but I still think that they are swimming in gobs and gobs of money. *thinks of Draco's high-quality school robes, for example* > This gives us a reason why they'd follow Voldemort---if Lord V. promised Lucius a return to Those Thrilling Days Of Yesteryear, and to restore the Malfoy fortune to what it was in those times, a Lucius Malfoy who had been brooding about his family's (relative) fall from fortune might well listen. Although they are filthy rich, I don't think that money is the primary reason why they would choose to follow Voldie. Besides, if they indeed are loaded, it would give a nice touch of "Narcissa married Lucius just because of his fortune" ;-) Meira From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Nov 28 18:22:59 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 12:22:59 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flesh-eating slug repellent References: <3DE626B7.4C7D37AC@pacificpuma.com> <006901c29700$07b51fa0$7b04a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: <3DE65F03.637910@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47370 Amanda Geist wrote: > > > redandgoldlion wrote: > > an excellent question which had been niggling at me and never rose to > the > surface, about why flesh-eating slugs would be eating cabbage (giving > rise > to the inevitable, "*was* that why Hagrid was there...?" > > Jazmyn responded > > > > As it turned out, he got the stuff for the mandrakes. Maybe he was > > joking about cabbages... > > *sirens go off* L.O.O.N. alert! Movie poisoning! I may be wrong (given > that > I haven't read the books start-to-finish in a rather long time and I'm > short > on sleep with sick kids), but I *think* this comes from a side mention > in > the movie, and is not in the books. > > Someone with more time and no sick children or a better memory want to > go > check? > > ~Amanda Well, Rowling approved it. You know as well as I that she oversees the script changes. You know shes explaining more details to the studio then we ever get from her books. Besides, it makes sense as mandrakes would be more likely to be made of 'magical'? flesh then a cabbage. Either that or the background magic is mutating the slugs, which would make Prof Spout's job harder then it looks. Out battling hoards of magically mutated tomato worms.. (shudder) Or maybe 'flesh eating' sounded better then just buying regular slug repellent that he could have got at any muggle gardening store.. ie. it was called that for 'effect' and having nothing to so with what it was being used on. Jazmyn From talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 28 18:27:53 2002 From: talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com (Darla) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 18:27:53 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Wand In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127184855.012c9488@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47371 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > JKR has hinted more than once that Hagrid is careless. And we've seen > evidence of his carelessness. I don't think buying a wand in Knockturn > Alley would be out of character at all, and it does explain how Voldemort > got his wand back. > > Carol Bainbridge > (kaityf at j...) > ***************** Hello! Erm, well, I actually think it would be extremely out of character for Hagrid to purchase a wand. Yes, he has a certain disregard for the rules when it comes to illegal pets *grin*, but I believe this is driven mostly out of love for them, (and a touching innocence in his ability to care for creatures most of the WW turn their noses up at and fear more out of ignorance then any real basis). When Hagrid respects someone, he respects them, and I don't believe he would betray Dumbledore by going behind his back to by a dodgy wand. His wand was broken, and he's very quick to assure Mr Olivander in PS that it's remained so, and Hagrid definately isn't one to buy something simply to 'look' at it, or think it's pretty. Darla. From jodel at aol.com Thu Nov 28 19:04:08 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 14:04:08 EST Subject: Why are *all* Muggles so tolerant of their wizard chi... Message-ID: <78.31948143.2b17c2a8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47372 Short answer; They're not. We only see or hear about the ones who are. I'm one of the people who is convinced that the Hogwarts letter gets hand delivered to Muggle-born students by a Ministry employee whose job it is is to explain and demonstrate that their kid has a rare talent which should be trained. If they agree, this person also sets up an appointment to take the family to Diagon Alley and shows the child how to let them in. Gets a wand and continues as "native guide" through the first purchase of school supplies. I they do NOT agree, s/he obliviates all knowledge of the letter and the visit from everyone in the family, and passes their name and address on to the Accidental Magic Reversal office to set up a monitor on the child. It is possible that some form of "sleep training" will be set up (either then, or later if the child has a history of breakthrough magic) to give some help in controling the tendency to channel magic unconsiously. But there is no canon to support this. It is also possible that there are "remedial" training facilities for magical people who are not trained as children and the child will be contacted later by another representitive when s/he is no longer a minor. (Or possibly the Kwickspell course is a Ministry-supported program.) Note: The WW may be unclear on the concept of democracy, but bureauocracy holds no mysteries for them. In any event. In most cases, the typical family will not have excessive resistance to training the child to control his magic. The Dursleys and religious nuts are extreme examples. So far, the most likely candidate for voicing the reaction of the typical "Muggle on the street" is probably Frank Bryce. "You mean he was a *real* wizard? He *killed* me!". The WW has spent the past 300 years encouraging Muggles to believe that magic is all just storybook foolishness, good for entertaining children and perhaps for illustrating archtypes but nothing to do with the real world. The ingrained horror and hostility of the Dursleys only comes fron actual awareness that magic *is* real. And from that point of view, the Ministry rep has a number of cards to play. First, the shock value that magic *is* real, and is nothing like the green-skinned representations in the popular media, the understanding that their kid is "Special" in a VERY rare meaning of the term, the posh value of being offered a place at a Scottish boarding school (I'm sure there is a system of student loans to cover fees and materials available -- the Creevy kids will be paying theirs off through their twenties). In short, an outright refusal to allow the kid to attend Hogwarts is very rare. What is more likely is that some Muggle parents may try to pull thir kids out of Hogwarts after a year or two over concerns about the lack of solid academic teaching. That's the point that the Ministry reps have to put themselves out to get across the concept that Muggle academic subjects are not particularly applicable to the requirements of a wizarding professional. -JOdel From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Thu Nov 28 20:23:14 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 20:23:14 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flesh-eating slug repellent In-Reply-To: <006901c29700$07b51fa0$7b04a6d8@texas.net> References: <3DE626B7.4C7D37AC@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021128201238.0097cba0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 47373 At 11:02 28/11/02 -0600, Amanda Geist wrote: > > redandgoldlion wrote: > >an excellent question which had been niggling at me and never rose to the >surface, about why flesh-eating slugs would be eating cabbage (giving rise >to the inevitable, "*was* that why Hagrid was there...?" Strangely enough, I've always read it as the Repellent being flesh-eating, not the slugs, i.e. the product is a flesh-eating repellent for slugs. It's only on reading this thread that I've realised that the name could mean repellent for flesh-eating slugs. In my reading, there is of course no problem. :-) >*sirens go off* L.O.O.N. alert! Movie poisoning! I may be wrong (given that >I haven't read the books start-to-finish in a rather long time and I'm short >on sleep with sick kids), but I *think* this comes from a side mention in >the movie, and is not in the books. Quite. Although it's not really a side mention. In the book, Harry tells Ron & Hermione about Hagrid having been shopping for it, for the cabbages; in the movie, Hagrid actually walks past them with a fresh supply, stating its purpose is for the Mandrakes (which, incidentally, are in the greenhouse, and therefore presumably safer from pests?). One way or another, Hagrid's role is definitely fishy. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who has finally found an hour for some HPFGUing! From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Nov 28 20:00:27 2002 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 20:00:27 -0000 Subject: Malfoy Money/Lucius at Borgin's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47374 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "meira_q" wrote: This might be possible, but I still think that they are swimming in > gobs and gobs of money. > *thinks of Draco's high-quality school robes, for example* > Although they are filthy rich, I don't think that money is the > primary reason why they would choose to follow Voldie. > > Besides, if they indeed are loaded, it would give a nice touch > of "Narcissa married Lucius just because of his fortune" ;-) I've always taken the description of the Malfoys at face value, and assumed that they were rich too. One reason might be that Malfoy is always sneering at Ron's poverty - it just seems unlikely he'd hazard a taunt that could be turned right back on himself. As for Narcissa, I would assume that she probably also comes from an old, probably rich, wizarding family, and theirs might have even been a quasi-"arranged" marriage, a sort of alliance of dynasties, as often used to happen among aristocratic families. I do wonder, though, why Lucius would go to the trouble of *selling* his Dark Arts things in CoS, instead of just destroying them. It doesn't seem likely that he needs the money - is he the penny- pinching type, who doesn't like to waste anything? Or is there a limited stock of such items in the world, and if they disappear, will it damage the cause of "dark wizardry"? It's just a thing that's always struck me as a bit "low" for someone as lofty as Lucius to do, haggling with Mr. Borgin. Wanda From kkearney at students.miami.edu Thu Nov 28 21:02:32 2002 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 21:02:32 -0000 Subject: Malfoy Money/Lucius at Borgin's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47375 Wnada wondered: > I do wonder, though, why Lucius would go to the trouble of >*selling* > his Dark Arts things in CoS, instead of just destroying them. It > doesn't seem likely that he needs the money - is he the penny- > pinching type, who doesn't like to waste anything? Or is there a > limited stock of such items in the world, and if they disappear, > will it damage the cause of "dark wizardry"? It's just a thing > that's always struck me as a bit "low" for someone as lofty as > Lucius to do, haggling with Mr. Borgin. It seems to me that these objects are probably quite rare and valuable to someone interested in spreading the Dark Arts. Valuable in the sense that they are difficult to make/charm/etc., rather than monetary value. I'm sure Lucius doesn't plan to part company with these things forever. He simply wants the evidence away from himself for a while. This way, he can always buy them back once he needs them again. -Corinth, who wishes everyone a Happy Thankgiving. From dunphy_shane at hotmail.com Thu Nov 28 20:58:52 2002 From: dunphy_shane at hotmail.com (shane dunphy) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 20:58:52 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's treatment of Draco/ Snape's Motivations Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47376 Eloise wrote: >Well, what do you make of the Potions class where Draco makes his dramatic >re-entry after the Hippogriff incident and Snape plays long with his >obvious deceit so fully, getting Ron and Harry to prepare his potions >ingredients for him. Plus, as has been noted, JKR *tells* us that he is the >only student Snape seems to like. > >If there isn't a lot else, I think it's because Draco isn't particularly >well fleshed out yet. Take JKR's assertion that compared to Draco, Dudley >was a kind and considerate boy (or words to that effect - I can't find the >quote). I don't think the books really bear that out as yet in examples of >their behaviour, but JKR says it is so. I think she also *implies* even if >she doesn't give many concrete examples that Snape favours Draco. Yeah, this is a good point. My own feelings about it are that Snape at times sees similarities between himself and Draco. There has been some speculation on the list that Draco is emotionally neglected, and I tend to agree with this. His two closest friends, Crabbe and Goyle are probably not the most popular among the Slytherin class. He seems to be very needy, and covers this up with a formulated superiority complex. He also has a penchant for cruelty. Don't we see these behaviours in Snape himself? Sure, we see Snape favouring Draco from time to time, but haven't we also seen Snape going out of his way to save Harry's life? If there is a higher degree of favouring, I can't think of it. Eloise also wrote: >Now - Snape's motivations - my very own de-lurk subject! >I agree very much with what you say, except for the 'inability to make deep >lasting friendships.' Of that, IMHO, we do not have evidence. People often >characterise Snape as a loner, but we know that he hung out with a gang of >Slytherins, the rest of whom are either in Azkaban, or dead, as far as we >know. And we have no evidence that he doesn't get on well with the rest of >the staff. We don't see them treat him, for instance, with the contempt >with which they treat Lockhart. I would say that with Dumbledore, he does >have a deep, lasting friendship which is one of the thing that makes the >'Dumbledore's Head' scenario so poignant. Mmm. I think that the other teachers respect him for his skills as a potions master. They admire the fact that he is gifted at this very difficult branch of magic. Lockhart was obviously a bumbling idiot and a show-off. You can't really compare the two (although the obvious differences were played on beautifully in the Duelling Club scene in PA, weren't they?) I don't think that Snape is close friends with any of the teachers. His room is in the Dungeons, something that I feel is deeply symbolic: Snape is trapped in the dungeon of his conflicted personality. While he is locked in, he also wishes to keep people out. He seems uncomfortable with intimacy. Even when he is being nice (as in the scenes you mention with Draco), he is hardly overflowing with emotion. We never see him wiping a tear from his eye, like McGonagall in PS and CoS. He is emotionally challenged. Yeas, he does seem to have a close relationship with Dumbledore, but I again stress that I see this as being a surrogate father type relationship, rather than a best buddy kind of thing. Can you see Snape and Dumbledore sitting around of an evening, having a few beers and talking about the last Quidditch match? Eloise again: >But for the record, my own Snape backstory does have him coming from an >emotionally deprived background with a cold father (and an ineffective or >absent mother) for whom nothing was ever good enough and his turning to >Voldemort at least in part in the search for an adequate father-figure, >Dumbledore having apparently failed him. And then a return to Dumbledore, when he sees that his loyalty to LV was misplaced. My thoughts exactly! Shane. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Nov 28 21:32:37 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 15:32:37 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flesh-eating slug repellent References: <3DE626B7.4C7D37AC@pacificpuma.com> <4.2.0.58.20021128201238.0097cba0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <3DE68B75.FCB1AF36@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47377 GulPlum wrote: > > > > Quite. Although it's not really a side mention. In the book, Harry > tells > Ron & Hermione about Hagrid having been shopping for it, for the > cabbages; > in the movie, Hagrid actually walks past them with a fresh supply, > stating > its purpose is for the Mandrakes (which, incidentally, are in the > greenhouse, and therefore presumably safer from pests?). > > One way or another, Hagrid's role is definitely fishy. > Greenhouses are not pest free. Take it from someone who had to deal with every kind of bug imaginable sneaking into a greenhouse PLUS termites eating the supports of the greenhouse itself. Bugs are experts at finding their way into anyplace.. just look at roaches for example. The humidity in a greenhouse is heaven for slugs and once snails or slugs get in, its a pain to get rid of them. Hoggwart's greenhouses have been standing for hundreds of years and no telling what has snuck in there. If Lupin discovered a boggart in the staff room cupboard, think of what nasty things could sneak into the greenhouses! Hoggwarts is prob a magnet for all sorts of magical nasty pests.. I'd be afraid to sit down on a toilet there for fear of 'things' living in the pipes. Jazmyn From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu Nov 28 21:50:21 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 21:50:21 +0000 Subject: (FILK) You'll Cut Off Your Right Hand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47378 I don't know...sometimes these things come to me in a flash of inspiration... You'll Cut Off Your Right Hand (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _I Want To Hold Your Hand_ by the Beatles) Listen to it here: http://deedee.pcsos.com/Beatles.htm Lord Voldemort: Oh yeah, I'll tell you Wormtail I've got an evil plan And you'll help me Wormtail You'll cut off your right hand You'll cut off your right hand You'll cut off your right hand Yeah you're my servant My servant to command When I say to do it You'll cut off your right hand You'll cut off your right hand You'll cut off your right hand With bone and blood and the flesh that you'll provide Then from the cauldron you will see I'll arise, I'll arise, I'll arise Yeah, with all of my powers Nobody will withstand Now Wormtail, stop your whimpering I'll give you a new hand Once you cut off your hand You'll cut off your right hand Then when I touch Harry I won't feel the pain Then afterwards I will make sure Harry's slain, then I'll reign once again Yeah then with my followers I'll terrorize the land But first, back to business You'll cut off your right hand You'll cut off your right hand You'll cut off your right hand -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From kaityf at jorsm.com Thu Nov 28 22:43:09 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 16:43:09 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Wand In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127184855.012c9488@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021128162454.03043cc8@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47379 Darla said: > Erm, well, I actually think it would be extremely out of character >for Hagrid to purchase a wand. Yes, he has a certain disregard for >the rules when it comes to illegal pets *grin*, but I believe this is >driven mostly out of love for them, (and a touching innocence in his >ability to care for creatures most of the WW turn their noses up at >and fear more out of ignorance then any real basis). That's true. Hagrid does love his animals, but illegal is illegal and he knows it. How on earth could he expect to keep an illegal dragon hidden in his wooden hut? He just doesn't always think things through very well. And he's careless. McGonagall points that out to Dumbledore in PS/SS and Hagrid does tell the "stranger" in the pub how to get past Fluffy. If that's not careless, I don't know what is. > When Hagrid respects someone, he respects them, and I don't believe >he would betray Dumbledore by going behind his back to by a dodgy >wand. His respect for Dumbledore does not stop him from buying that dragon or from telling someone he's never met before how to get past Fluffy. >His wand was broken, and he's very quick to assure Mr Olivander >in PS that it's remained so, and Hagrid definately isn't one to buy >something simply to 'look' at it, or think it's pretty. Yes, he's very quick to assure Mr. Olivander, which is why he wouldn't be able to get one from him. And he's also not supposed to use a wand or do magic either in PS/SS, but he does. We all suspect that he has the pieces of his broken wand in his umbrella. To me it's not that big of a stretch to go from using his broken wand to buying a wand that he really shouldn't have. He doesn't need to know that the wand is Voldemort's. Also, he could buy that wand anytime -- at the beginning of Harry's second year or at the end. We just know at the beginning that Hagrid DOES go to Knockturn Alley. By the end of Harry's second year, Hagrid has been cleared of any wrong-doing in his youth. Yet JKR has pointedly left out any mention of whether Hagrid is allowed to use a wand bought a new wand or is now allowed to use magic. It's left out in PoA and in GoF as well. And I do think it's in character for Hagrid to buy something because it's nice to look at. Or just because he wants it. He would justify as "I'm not going to *use* it, so there's no harm in it." He doesn't usually think past the moment. From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Thu Nov 28 23:07:05 2002 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 18:07:05 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's Wand Message-ID: <129.1c2c65ba.2b17fb99@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47380 In a message dated 11/27/02 8:27:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, kaityf at jorsm.com writes: > Lucius is the one who picks up Voldemort's wand after the curse > backfires. The only problem I have with this scenario (which is very wicked *grins*) is that Lucius would have to have been at the Potter house. I don't believe he was there. The only people we know for sure were at the Potter house were: Harry, Sirius, and Hagrid. 1. Harry: well, I *sincerely* doubt Harry took the wand. There's almost no way possible. The only thing he could've done is perhaps crawled on the floor and picked it up after the curse backfired. But he doesn't have it - obviously. All in all, Harry having LV's wand is a *big* no! 2. Sirius: now...I see this as possible. If he got to the Potter house, saw Lily and James, and then picked up the wand; he could've went after Peter. In his blind fury, Sirius was most likely going to A.K. him, and if I were going to use A.K., I wouldn't use my own wand - the MOM could know. Sirius could've taken LV's wand and tried to kill Peter. When Peter blew up the street, he could've taken LV's wand and hid it and he could've went to get it after PoA. 3. Hagrid: again, possible. If, when he got to the Potter house, he saw the wand, he could've taken it. He would've had no way of knowing whose wand it was: it could've been James', Lily's, or LV's. He takes it and keeps it at his hut - not using it, just keeping it around. Why? Not sure yet. I'm working on it. When Pettigrew hides in Hagrid's hut in PoA, he recognizes the wand, takes it, and hides it in the forest. Hagrid can't say anything because then he would have to admit he had taken the wand. Apparently, there are alot of ways that LV's wand could've gotten back to him. Those are my crazy ideas anyway.... ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ (Who is now hiding in the storm cellar to make sure she doesn't get hurt when the flaming/blowing holes in the theory starts *grin*) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From twisterx at bellsouth.net Thu Nov 28 21:57:58 2002 From: twisterx at bellsouth.net (twister10_2000) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 21:57:58 -0000 Subject: Why are *all* Muggles so tolerant of their wizard chi... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47381 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jazmyn wrote: > > I would think that anyone with wizards in their family would know > they > > had them and that info passed down. Muggles don't spontaneously > produce > > wizard kids, they had to inherit those magical genes from somewhere. > > Possibly both parents would have to carry the 'recessive' gene as > well, > > assuming its a recessive gene as it skips generations sometimes. So > even > if one parent was adopted/fostered/orphaned and didn't know about having >> wizarding in their bloodlines, its likely the other one might know. I'm going with Jazmyn on this one, muggles are just non-magic folk, they could very well have magical genes in them and relatives in the family. While I buy into the recessive theory, there's still plenty of things in cannon that contradict it. Take for instance: Tom Riddle; he was petrified of the idea of having produced a magical on. If he's carrying the genes, then surely some distant relative of his is wizarding- no? Then again, that might just be *Why* he was so afraid, after all the WW is a very strange and dangerous place compared to our own. Like Petunia, he might view this as a freakish, dangerous thing. Or of course, he might just be shocked to find out that such a world exists at all. What bothers me though is that Ron tells us that if Wizards hadn't married and mixed with muggles, they would've died out. If it's a recessive trait, then surely we would have some very depressed witches and wizards producing completely non-magical families. Did the Wizards of old have the forsight to see this as a long term benefit? And what was causing the wizarding population to die out? We know there have been a great many dark wizards aside from Voldemort (Grindenwald in 1945...that's two that we know of in one century)...so is this what was causing the population to dwindle? If so, marrying muggles could have just been a wizard's way of fleeing the situation. The benefits of marrying muggles and spreading magical genes across a varied population would have only been seen later. Perhaps the WW was once something much greater than it currently is, and then something (perhaps, the first major war with dark magic) caused it to scatter and break up...I could very easily see one to two wizards in a clan of muggles in early history, therefore producing the stereotype of the wisemen or the medicinal men & women/shamans/etc within muggle culture. Getting back to Muggle parents' reactions...perhaps muggle parents aren't necessarily informed of the dangers of the wizarding world. Dark wizards are not something that the wizarding population is comfortable talking about amongst themselves, why would they reveal such a thing to innocent young wizards and their respective muggle families? To let them brood over the situation and decide whether or not they want their kid in this? I don't think so, I'm not quite sure that the WW can afford to loose so many possible wizards. Aside from that, it's not fair to the kid if the parents decide against it, it's like taking someone who has an innate ability to something and repressing it for their whole life. It might also be quite dangerous to anyone around them; we've seen what an innocent little Harry can do without knowing, and I suppose there are far worse situations then growing back hair quickly and making glass vanish. Perhaps stubborn muggle parents are visited with a memory charm or two, to sway them or at least have them accept the fact that their child is magical and needs tutoring. Sure, it's sounds cruel, but it's a much better alternative then having an untrained magical child on the loose in the muggle world from the Ministry's perspective. Or perhaps Hogwarts and other schools' letters are only sent to Family's with magical children who are most likely going to allow the child to accept and attend? Kind of like when a student in the U.S. sends in applications for college or university, it's makes more sense to just apply to the college's you want to go to and are most likely to get accepted into...that concept, but only in reverse. It's entirely plausible, considering that Dumbledore alone seems quite keen on *knowing* things about people. ~Jess From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Nov 28 23:28:32 2002 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:28:32 -0000 Subject: Flesh-eating slug repellent In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021128201238.0097cba0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47382 Richard wrote (about why flesh-eating slugs would be eating cabbage): > Strangely enough, I've always read it as the Repellent being flesh- eating, > not the slugs, i.e. the product is a flesh-eating repellent for slugs. It's > only on reading this thread that I've realised that the name could mean > repellent for flesh-eating slugs. > > In my reading, there is of course no problem. :-) Yes, that was my reading too. *However*, it could be: - flesh-eating slugs only *really* become a menace after they have become angry and malnourished after eating a diet of rabbit-food, and Dumbledore has forbidden Hagrid from pacifying them by feeding them Mrs Norris; - they are called flesh-eating slugs because normally they eat flesh, but what they really like is a nice tender cabbage. Hagrid, naturally, isn't bothered as long as only a few students are at risk and anyway, that's not his department; however, once his cabbages are threatened he gets serious; - Hagrid's cabbages are special. They require a regular diet of red meat to achieve their full potential. The flesh-eating slugs are competing, and have to go; - he is hoping, by strategic placement of the repellant, to drive the slugs in the direction of Mrs Norris, whose skeleton will be found mysteriously picked bare, and the connection with Hagrid will never be traced. David, who would like to know (offlist, I think) the basis for believing JKR is 'explaining more details to the studio than we ever get from her books'. From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 28 23:51:47 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:51:47 -0000 Subject: On the nature of theories/MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47383 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "abigailnus" wrote: > Abigail: >In other words, if MD is never addressed by the books and I go to >see JKR and ask her whether she had any MD-like thoughts in the >back of her mind when she wrote the text and she gives me a strange >look and tells me that I'm crazy, that *still* won't invalidate >MAGIC DISHWASHER as an interpretation of the text. Pip: Well, it would for me, frankly. And as the creator of the theory, I think I'm allowed a say in what invalidates it. So if any of the `against' crowd feel like hunting up JKR Abigail: >seems to me to be happening is that MD supporters are already >treating their theory as an interpretation - it's something that >they believe is happening in the background, and they don't require >canon validation to believe that it is true. So good for them, but >the rest of us are treating MD as if it were still a theory - >something that has to be addressed by canon in order to be true. >Hence this argument. Pip: I quote from my TBAY post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/47047 Imaginary Alla: "So DISHWASHER is disprovable?" Pip!Squeak: "Yes". I'm not entirely sure how much clearer I can be. But let me try anyway. The original DISHWASHER posts (back in the days when it was still called the Spying Game), http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39662 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40044 are an analysis of canon. To be precise, #39662 is an analysis of the Shrieking Shack scene with Snape in Ch.19, the hospital scene in Ch.21, and the second hospital scene in Ch. 22 of PoA. # 40044 is an analysis of the Graveyard scene in GoF, Chs. 32, 33 and 34. Far from not requiring canon validation, in those posts I go through the relevant canon in great detail, sometimes discussing it line by line. In creating the theory I tried to take into account all available canon ? Books 1 to 4. Obviously it wasn't perfect, but since opponents pointed out holes with great glee (I'm still embarrassed that it never occurred to me that the Triwizard Cup Portkey might have been spelled to return the winner of the Cup to the front of the maze), most of the holes have by now been found and plugged. And the DISHWASHER still churns away as a possible background theory, explaining why all those otherwise unbelievable coincidences in canon aren't really coincidences at all. The problem we now have is that the DISHWASHER may (I repeat, *may*) have managed to incorporate into its theory all the canon to date. This would mean that until Book Five hits the bookshops (and we all fight to get our hands on one of the first copies), it probably can't be disproved *canonically*. It would be a theory that is valid in the light of Books One to Four. Of course, when Book Five hits, all bets are off. As I said in an off-list comment to Captain Cindy: "Dishwasher is definitely and absolutely *not* canon-proof. This is my word-from-on-high as theory creator. And you can quote me on that." ------------------------------------------------------------ >Abigail: > My problem is, what was his original plan [for the SS]? > MAGIC DISHWASHER talks a lot about Plan B, and even C and D > eventually, but what about Plan A? What was Dumbledore's > original game plan before Sirius went and ruined everything? I > said that at this point, no such plan emerges from MD, and as > result the theory looks more like shoving the past into a > convenient mold. Grey Wolf: >Plan A was: get a Voldemort a follower with life-debt to Harry. >Sirius did not went in and ruined anything; he was as good for the >plan as Peter, and probably Dumbledore was originally planning to >use Sirius anyway, since he might not have known Peter was there already.> Abigail: >Which suggests that Dumbledore was going to orchestrate Sirius's >escape - how? How could he guess that Sirius would still be loyal >to Voldemort when none of Voldy's most loyal supporters had tried >to find him in the intervening years? Pip: If you re-read the second DISHWASHER post, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40044 You will find that the DISHWASHER view is that Voldemort had been in contact with at least some of his supposedly disloyal followers; and may have been aware that it would have been dangerous to *Voldemort* for his most loyal followers to have tried to find him physically (rather than psychically). Canon point: In Chapter One of GoF Voldemort has a fire going in the Riddle House. He asks to be moved closer to it. This is in August. Less than a week later the weather is so warm that Harry and the Weasley's eat outside. Wizards use fires for other things than heat. They communicate with other wizards via fires. As is pointed out several times in GoF. Canon point: In CoS Dobby knows all about the Riddle Diary plot. To know about it, Dobby must have heard Lucius talking about it. The options are: Malfoy's wife, his son (which Draco denies), his house- elf ? or the original owner of the diary. Dumbledore's view on the matter: " But this time Lord Voldemort was acting through somebody else. By means of this diary." He held up the small black book with the large hole through the centre, *watching Mr Malfoy closely.*[CoS, Ch.18 p. 246, my emphasis.] Dumbledore is directing the `Lord Voldemort was acting through somebody else' to Lucius Malfoy. Dumbledore's view is that Voldemort was acting through Malfoy ? Voldemort had given his loyal follower orders to use the diary. As to Dumbledore's original game plan before Sirius Black escaped ? I don't know, just as I don't know what would have happened in Harry's second year if Malfoy hadn't planted the diary. There's a certain lack of canon about `what might have been'. I claim that Dumbledore has a plan. I don't claim that it's an exact, detailed script. His plans probably do include some improvisation as he responds to events, and he may not always be able to follow the timetable he'd like. For example, it's not impossible that the incredibly dodgy series of DADA teachers in Books One, Two and Three is again, not a coincidence. One turned out to *be* Voldemort rather than a follower, the second turned out to be evil, but not a follower of Voldemort. And in the third year Sirius Black escapes, trying to get to Hogwarts (which, since he's reported as muttering "He's at Hogwarts" is *Known*), Dumbledore hires Lupin (another non-coincidence), Ron's 12 year old rat-with-the-missing-toe comes to school with him as usual ? and Dumbledore has the jackpot. Because one of those three *must* be the betrayer of the Potters; a guaranteed, certified follower of Voldemort, who has no other future once discovered (given the options of Dementors, Azkaban, or getting torn to pieces by either the p'd off Marauders or the equally p'd off Death Eaters) but to run straight *to* Voldemort. So, no Dumbledore didn't orchestrate Black's escape, he merely spotted it as a `window of opportunity'. OR, the dodgy DADA teachers *are* a coincidence, and Dumbledore's original plan was to try and keep Voldemort disembodied until Harry was much older and more capable of defending himself. But Black's escape meant that Dumbledore had to grab the `window of opportunity' much sooner than he'd hoped he'd have to. Whichever. Incidentally, if Sirius had been the betrayer, you might want to consider the possibility that Lupin could very well have wanted to kill him The deaths of Cedric, Frank Bryce, Bertha Jorkins: Abigail: >But Dumbledore helped bring them about, and if he really is a moral >person he has to be aware of that. I would argue that `Dumbledore would/should not put innocent lives at risk' is a philosophical argument not a canonical argument. Because, you see, canon Dumbledore already *has* put innocent lives at risk by the time of GoF. In the Chamber of Secrets, the Chamber is opened at Halloween. Dumbledore was a teacher at the school the last time the Chamber was opened [CoS, Ch.13 p.183 UK paperback]. Dumbledore knows perfectly well that the last time the Chamber was opened, someone died. However, he proceeds to keep the school open, through Christmas, Easter and the early summer, despite the rapidly decreasing number of students to teach. Despite his knowledge that this decision may make him `complicit' in the death of one of his students. Abigail: > If Dumbledore has indeed been planning for > Voldemort's return since the end of VWI, why would he turn > [the MoM] position down? > As for needing Hogwarts protection, I've never perceived the > MoM as being the den of DEs that you seem to think it is. Catlady has pointed out (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/47351) that the MoM has canonical known Death Eaters in it. It's probably not the place to run a network of spies. Uh, let me rephrase that. It's probably not the place for *Dumbledore* to run a network of spies. [grin]. Voldemort probably quite likes it. Arthur Weasley, the obviously anti-Voldemort Arthur Weasley, is in the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office. Barty Crouch Sr has found himself in International Magical Co-Operation. Mad Eye Moody no longer works for the Ministry. Is there some kind of pattern here? And the Committee for Disposal of Dangerous Creatures is supposedly in Lucius Malfoy's pocket [PoA Ch. 11, p.162 UK hardback]. Admittedly Hagrid isn't always a reliable witness, but since the canonically DE McNair works for that Committee, he may have a point. Abigail: > I attack theories, not people. I'm sorry if anyone feels otherwise. AH! At last! We agree about something! [grin]. Likewise, if anyone has felt that I have attacked *them* rather than their theories, they have my unreserved apologies. Pip!Squeak From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Nov 28 23:55:03 2002 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:55:03 -0000 Subject: Lucius caring for Draco? (was Re: Malfoys and Dursleys) In-Reply-To: <01b501c29686$ec48c010$0301a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47384 Heidi wrote: > I'm not really sure what you look to in canon as evidence that > Lucius cares about Draco. He certainly is critical of him in Borgin & > Burkes, I think the B&B scene is capable of more than one interpretation. While I would not commend Lucius' criticism of Draco in front of Borgin as good parenting, I think it is compatible with caring. It could reflect anxiety about Draco's progress, and the (probably mistaken) belief that to mention it in this way will encourage Draco to buck up. It could even be that Lucius would admit that really it's not the best way to handle Draco but his feelings get the better of him. For all his attempts to project a smooth and statesmanlike facade, LM is clearly a volatile and passionate person who on a number of occasions has acted against his own interests in public because of his inability to control his feelings. Given wizarding longevity and conservatism, this scene could just reflect what would have been seen in the muggle world as normal and even correct a hundred or so years ago. > he leaves him on his own when drunken Death Eaters are > rampaging, Well, we know nothing of the level of Draco's obedience at this point > and Draco doesn't speak a word in public, other than in > Borgin & Burkes, when Lucius is around. Is Lucius there when Draco says 'Harry, you've got a *Girlfriend*'? > His parents leave him at school over Christmas hols when Lucius *knows* > that a Basilisk is roaming around the school Again, it's hard to know what LM really knows: he has a mendacious diary that apparently conducts campaigns against mudbloods, which Draco isn't. and it's implied in CoS > that on all of Lucius' visits to Hogwarts on various bits of "business" > that year, he never spends much time, if any at all, with Draco. > > Where in canon is the caring? There is one other intriguing little sidelight. In his very first appearance, Draco talks about 'bullying' his father (IIRC) into getting him a broomstick. This could be empty boasting, and it is almost certainly not literal truth. It does suggest to me a bit more to the relationship than stern authority. David From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Nov 29 00:03:14 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:03:14 -0000 Subject: Lead Us Not Into Temptation: A Question About MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47385 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bluesqueak" wrote: > Pip: > Well, it would for me, frankly. And as the creator of the theory, I > think I'm allowed a say in what invalidates it. So if any of > the `against' crowd feel like hunting up JKR ? Someone really should give a mind to hunting up JKR. I have a list of questions that would frankly puzzle her. I'd be too afraid to ask about FourthMan!Avery, though. Anyway, Pip, a question about MAGIC DISHWASHER. You lay great stress on the fact that DISHWASHER Dumbledore relies on Harry making the right choice in the Shack, thus he's not coercing Harry. However, I've always found this one of the more disturbing facets of the whole DISHWASHER theory, and I was never able to put my finger on it till today. This is it. What if Harry hadn't made the right choice? I'm reminded of the line from the Lord's Prayer. "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from all evil." I don't know how I feel about a Dumbledore who would lead Harry into temptation, give a thirteen year old boy, who hasn't exactly had the best moral formation, the chance to do something he would regret for the rest of his life. Any thoughts on this? Eileen From catlady at wicca.net Fri Nov 29 00:13:12 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:13:12 -0000 Subject: Sirius Anxiety / Lots of Snape / Magic Genetics Again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47386 Heidi wrote: << How else would you describe his pleas to Harry to keep him posted about anything unusual? (snip) If those are actions of someone suffering no anxiety symptoms, I do wonder what you think someone anxious would do. >> I'd describe them as reasonable caution, or even reasonable worry, under the circumstances. A person with no anxiety disorders whatsoever would worry about a young student facing the Triwizard Tasks and would worry if a number of events all pointed to Voldemort returning to Britain and his old schemes. If Sirius was showing symptoms of anxiety AS WELL, he'd have licked all the fur off his belly or chewed a hole in his floppy ear (both in dog form) or tied every blade of grass in the area into knots (if human). << the end of Goblet of Fire, where Snape [makes "a sudden movement" -- Amanda LOON] upon hearing Harry mention Lucius' name as one who was at Voldemort's circle that night. At that point, I actually did think that perhaps Snape did believe Lucius when he said whatever he said to avoid prosecution or public disparagement for being a Death Eater. >> This is a forbidden "Me, too" post. << or even regarding the Buckbeak Incident in Book 3. >> Eloise wrote: << Well, what do you make of the Potions class where Draco makes his dramatic re-entry after the Hippogriff incident and Snape plays long with his obvious deceit so fully, getting Ron and Harry to prepare his potions ingredients for him. >> There was the incident itself, the Potions class aftermath of which Eloise wrote, and the Quidditch match aftermatch. Snape wouldn't have approved of Draco being so STUPID as to insult the Hippogryff right after being warned WITHOUT intending to be attacked. I (and therefore Snape) can imagine that Draco deliberately provoked the attack in order to get Hagrid in trouble. Snape might have believed some tale Draco told of the attack being unprovoked, or simply approved of any scheme to trouble Hagrid. As for the Potions class, Snape may have believed Draco was still as injured as he said, or approved or simply appreciated seizing the opportunity to trouble Ron, whom Snape also does not like. Heidi's fic has assumed that despite Madam Pomfrey's speed at repairing broken bones, reknitting muscles and their nerves takes longer and is more painful, and therefore there was some time during which Draco was NOT malingering. Snape have believed that Draco's injury still wasn't healed enough (I see him as rather gullible where Malfoys are concerned) when Draco begged off the Quidditch match on account of his injury. But when Draco then took part in the fake-Dementor stunt, Snape *must* have realised that his injury was adequately healed up. When that happened, I am sure Snape must have been furious about the points taken from Slytherin and about Draco having made himself, and therefore Slytherin House, and Slytherin House's Head, a laughing-stock. I don't know what Snape did with his fury, but I imagine that it involves punishment (detention and many feet of parchment, maybe being taken up close to a Dementor) for Draco having made a plot that he was sure to get caught at. Shane wrote:] << We never see him wiping a tear from his eye, like McGonagall in PS and CoS. >> We do see, when McGonagall tells the staff that a student has been taken into the Chamber: "Snape gripped the back of a chair very hard and said, "How can you be sure?" I have always read that as Snape cherishing the life of EVERY student, altho' I suppose it could be argued that he was just afraid it was Draco (or some other teacher's pet, if he has another), or even some more selfish fear, like Hogwarts will be closed and he will lose his job. Shane wrote: << Can you see Snape and Dumbledore sitting around of an evening, having a few beers and talking about the lastQuidditch match? >> I don't see Snape as a Quidditch person, but I do see them playing chess and talking about Shakespeare, including comparing different performances they've seen. Including disparaging each other's opinions. Jess Twister wrote: << Ron tells us that if Wizards hadn't married and mixed with muggles, they would've died out. >> Probably because the wizarding population is so small that after a while everyone would be *at least* third cousin to everyone else. So the purebloods would start getting in-bred; they would have to marry outside to bring in "hybrid vigor"; and also some people wouldn't find ANYONE they wanted to marry among the relatives, so no children at all unless they married outside. << If it's a recessive trait, then surely we would have some very depressed witches and wizards producing completely non-magical families. >> No, that is what would happen if MAGIC were a DOMINANT trait. If MAGIC is a recessive trait, then every witch and wizard's genes are 100% magic -- that is what 'recessive' means, the trait doesn't show if the genes are mixed, only the dominant trait shows. (Mixed is called heterozygous and 100% is called homozygous.) Since every witch and wizard is homozygous for MAGIC, those are the only genes they can pass on to their children -- no wonder Squibs are rare! I think 'rare' like 'one in a generation'. Because either they DO have the GENES for Magic but their magic was broken by something like a birth defect, or one of their parents isn't really their parent. Implication: Momma Witch was cheating on Papa Wizard with a MUGGLE! I actually have a more complicated theory of the inheritance of magic, for which read http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/41509 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/44348 . From pschmiedl at earthlink.net Thu Nov 28 23:49:35 2002 From: pschmiedl at earthlink.net (Trish in AZ) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 16:49:35 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's Wand References: <129.1c2c65ba.2b17fb99@aol.com> Message-ID: <001301c29738$d0890a80$0201a8c0@phx290479> No: HPFGUIDX 47387 While we are on the topic of wands I have a question. I tried to look in archives to see if this was brought up, but could not find anything. In PS/SS Mr. Olivander says, "the wand chooses the wizard" and the tail feather from the same Phoenix was in Harry's and Voldemort's wand. If in fact, if it is the Phoenix that belonged to Gryffindor why would that wand chose Voldemort? Trishofavalon From judyshapiro at directvinternet.com Fri Nov 29 00:42:59 2002 From: judyshapiro at directvinternet.com (Judy) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:42:59 -0000 Subject: Sirius and PTSD, also Sirius and Extroversion In-Reply-To: <023801c296c4$00718030$0301a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47388 On Sirius and extroversion: I said: <<[Sirius] wants action. He likes socializing and playing jokes. He's not the type who wants to spend his time sitting by himself, lost in thought. The psychological term for this is extroversion.>> And Penny replied: <<<>> It's true that we aren't told exactly what sort of troublemakers James and Sirius were. However, "merry prankster" is about the most positive interpretations of "troublemaker" that I can come up with. If Sirius and James made trouble and *didn't* mean it as a joke, I'd expect that James wouldn't have made Headboy and that Rosmerta and Hagrid wouldn't have laughed when thinking of James' and Sirius' behavior. So, I read canon as saying that Sirius and James were pranksters. I agree that Sirius' behavior and emotions would have changed as a result of his long time in Azkaban. However, the theories of extroversion that I'm aware of say that extroversion is "constitutional", that is, inborn or at least established early in childhood. So, I'd guess that Sirius would be changed by his experience in Azkaban, and might no longer enjoy socializing as much, but that the fundamental process underlying his extroversion (low central nervous system reactivity) would still be present. On Sirius and PTSD [Post Traumatic Stress Disorder]: I gave three problems with diagnosing Sirius as having PTSD. The first problem was that Sirius was still in extreme danger in PoA, so it was too early for him to develop PTSD. As the name Post Traumatic Stress Disorder implies, PTSD typically develops *after* the trauma, not during it. While people are in crisis mode, they are emotionally numbed to some extent; the full extent of the trauma doesn't hit them until later. Several people responded with a theory, of which Monika seems to be the originator, that Sirius is not in fact traumatized by what happened to him, but is instead traumatized by what happened to his friends, James and Lily. Since the trauma of their deaths happened a long time ago, he's had plenty of time to develop symptoms of PTSD. I think this is possible, although it requires seeing Sirius' personality as exceptionally altruistic. If you look at, say, people who had family members killed by Nazis and were then interred in concentration camps, their PTSD symptoms typically emerge after (often long after) they are out of the concentration camps and safe. Both the death of their loved ones and their own suffering were part of the trauma, so they weren't in the post-trauma period until both these events were over. So, for the above argument to work, Sirius would have to be so selfless that his own suffering didn't bother him at all. This line of argument isn't very useful for trying to show that Sirius is a nice guy, since it starts by assuming that he is a saint. The second problem was that if Sirius had PTSD during PoA, he made an implausibly quick recovery by GoF. People don't get over PTSD that fast (if at all.) To this, Penny replied: <<>> This seems to imply that Sirius' friendly demeanor in GoF is just an act, and that the "real Sirius" is the knife-wielding maniac of PoA. I don't think he'd be able to fool Harry so well, but even if he could, I doubt Sirius fans really want to go there. The biggest problem with seeing Sirius as having PTSD, though, is that he just doesn't have the symptoms in either book. I said: << anxiety symptoms are a hallmark of PTSD, but as far as I can tell, Sirius doesn't show much anxiety.>> Heidi responded that Sirius does show anxiety symptoms: <<>> I would say that Sirius is doing these things because Harry is in actual danger -- Voldemort is trying to kill Harry, after all. A rational response to actual danger does not count as a symptom of an anxiety disorder. So, these behaviors are all evidence of Sirius' concern for Harry, and show that he is a responsible godparent and willing to take great risks for Harry, but they don't show that Sirius has an anxiety disorder. JKR would have no trouble showing us if Sirius were anxious. Sirius would have a little twitch in his face, or his hands would shake. When the Death Eaters were mentioned, he would "look paler than usual" or "a cold bead of sweat" would appear on his forehead. Or, Harry would simply "see the anxiety in Sirius' face," just as Sirius is said to see the anxiety in Harry's face in the "Padfoot Returns" chapter. But, JKR says none of this. In PoA, Sirius is grinning at the thought of killing Peter. In "Padfoot Returns", he seems almost relaxed: he is happy to see Harry; he has plenty of appetite (albeit produced by lack of food), and he's quite able to concentrate. I'm not surprised that people differ in their reading of Sirius. After all, he is a very sympathetic character in some ways - he's suffered tremendously, and he takes great risks for Harry. But, he's also very unsympathetic in some ways. Even leaving aside the Prank, he chokes Harry in the Shack, he breaks Ron's leg, he slashes the Fat Lady for no apparent reason, and he's eagerly hunting down Peter, planning to fill him in cold blood. So, people are trying to find a way to reconcile these disparate aspects of his personality. I frankly think that's pointless. JKR often does wonderful characterizations, but she just didn't portray Sirius consistently. However, I realize that reasonable people can disagree, so I tried to offer an "olive branch" to those with a different view. I acknowledged that we don't see that much of Sirius, so our picture of him is incomplete. I even suggested that perhaps dementor exposure has effects that we don't know about, which might explain his behavior. But, that's as far as I'm willing to go. A diagnosis of PTSD just doesn't fit him. -- Judy From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 01:00:33 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 17:00:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Little Deaths (was: Voldemort's Wand) In-Reply-To: <001301c29738$d0890a80$0201a8c0@phx290479> Message-ID: <20021129010033.69364.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47389 Trish in AZ wrote: While we are on the topic of wands I have a question. I tried to look in archives to see if this was brought up, but could not find anything. In PS/SS Mr. Olivander says, "the wand chooses the wizard" and the tail feather from the same Phoenix was in Harry's and Voldemort's wand. If in fact, if it is the Phoenix that belonged to Gryffindor why would that wand chose Voldemort? Me: Well, since Voldemort's rebirth was not unlike a phoenix rising from the ashes, it seems somewhat appropriate for him to have a phoenix feather in his wand. While it seems that even Dumbledore is skeptical about anything even close to predestination, JKR does have him say that Trelawney's made two correct predictions, and when Harry is in the forest in the first book, the Centaurs seem genuinely interested in what they're reading in the stars (the "signs," they said). In other words, perhaps Trelawney is a red-herring and Divination WILL be very important to the books. Perhaps the wand somehow "knew" that Voldemort was destined to die (in a way) and be reborn at some point. Perhaps Harry having a phoenix feather in his wand means he will do the same thing--we don't know. We do know that the wand connects him to Voldemort, so now there's that connection, in addition to the scar (which was created by the brother wand). I wonder how many other connections there will be between them before the series is done. It's really highly appropriate for both Harry and Voldemort to have phoenix feathers in their wands. In some ways, Harry already symbolically died (when he left the wizarding world he sort of died to the world of magic) and was reborn (when he returned to the wizarding world and started at Hogwarts). Tom Riddle also symbolically died when he disappeared from the public eye after finishing school, and was reborn as the Dark Lord Voldemort. Harry may have many deaths and rebirths, who knows? Perhaps each trip back to the Dursleys is like a little death, and he's symbolically reborn when he returns to Hogwarts. I know we all feel like we're living in hell while waiting for the fifth book to resurrect us... --Barb (living in limbo with Harry...) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kaityf at jorsm.com Fri Nov 29 00:55:07 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 18:55:07 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's Wand In-Reply-To: <129.1c2c65ba.2b17fb99@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021128183508.030b8a48@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47390 Carol wrote: > > Lucius is the one who picks up Voldemort's wand after the curse > > backfires. Oryomai replied: >The only problem I have with this scenario (which is very wicked *grins*) is >that Lucius would have to have been at the Potter house. I don't believe he >was there. The only people we know for sure were at the Potter house were: >Harry, Sirius, and Hagrid. That's true. Those three are the only ones we know for sure were at the Potters -- yet. We have 3 books to go and I'm really convinced that we're going to find that Snape and Lucius were at the Potters (A theory I've decided to call SLAP -- Snape-Lucius At Potters). I outlined that theory earlier. >1. Harry: well, I *sincerely* doubt Harry took the wand. No question. Even if he DID take it, how on earth did it get to LV again? >2. Sirius: now...I see this as possible. If he got to the Potter house, saw >Lily and James, and then picked up the wand; he could've went after Peter. >In his blind fury, Sirius was most likely going to A.K. him, and if I were >going to use A.K., I wouldn't use my own wand - the MOM could know. Sirius >could've taken LV's wand and tried to kill Peter. When Peter blew up the >street, he could've taken LV's wand and hid it and he could've went to get it >after PoA. I don't see how this could work. For one thing, the spell he would have used to try to kill Peter would have come out in the graveyard scene at the end of GoF. Also, there was no time for Sirius to take the wand anywhere to hide it. He was caught almost immediately afterwards. And even if he did by some strange method find time to hide the wand, how did it get back to LV? >3. Hagrid: again, possible. If, when he got to the Potter house, he saw the >wand, he could've taken it. He would've had no way of knowing whose wand it >was: it could've been James', Lily's, or LV's. He takes it and keeps it at >his hut - not using it, just keeping it around. Why? Not sure yet. I'm >working on it. This would be the most plausible. However, I don't believe Hagrid would have taken a wand at this point. I agree that Hagrid would not have known whose wand it was, but that's a major part of the reason I don't believe he would have taken it. While I think it is perfectly in character for Hagrid to take something or do something when he doesn't think it can really do any harm, I don't think Hagrid would think that taking a wand at the Potters' demolished house after they were murdered was a harmless thing to do. Not for a souvenir, not for anything. >When Pettigrew hides in Hagrid's hut in PoA, he recognizes the >wand, takes it, and hides it in the forest. Hagrid can't say anything >because then he would have to admit he had taken the wand. Now THAT I agree with. But then that's exactly what I think happened -- except that I think Hagrid got the wand at Knockturn Alley. He may have wanted one after he was cleared at the end of CoS, but he didn't want to go to Olivander's. Or maybe he hadn't been told yet that he could have one, but just wanted to get one for when he was allowed to use magic again. No harm in that right? I can just hear Hagrid saying that. >Apparently, there are alot of ways that LV's wand could've gotten back to >him. You know, I could never figure out how the wand got to him. I didn't think there were that many possibilities. Something would make sense at one point, but not at another. From editor at texas.net Fri Nov 29 03:07:28 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 21:07:28 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flesh-eating slug repellent References: <3DE626B7.4C7D37AC@pacificpuma.com> <006901c29700$07b51fa0$7b04a6d8@texas.net> <3DE65F03.637910@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <004701c29754$7416e620$e604a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 47391 I said (about Hagrid using the flesh-eating slug repellent for the mandrakes): > *sirens go off* L.O.O.N. alert! Movie poisoning! I may be wrong (given that > I haven't read the books start-to-finish in a rather long time and I'm short > on sleep with sick kids), but I *think* this comes from a side mention in > the movie, and is not in the books. Jazmyn answered: > Well, Rowling approved it. You know as well as I that she oversees the > script changes. You know shes explaining more details to the studio > then we ever get from her books. Me: I know nothing of the sort. There is a vast gulf between active and tacit approval; the former involves consultation and input, and the latter can be many things, even unto looking at a nigh-finished product and thinking, "oh, well, it doesn't hurt anything." I have seen nothing that said she was involved with CoS on an active level; and on the tacit level, it simply may not have been important enough to raise a fuss over, even if it's incorrect. Please provide the source for your certainty--as soon as I read for myself a reliable citation where it is stated with authority that JKR oversaw CoS script changes or gave additional information to the studio on this film, I will give you your point. Until then, I think you're jumping to conclusions. Now, EVERYONE PLEASE NOTE: Further discussion of this point, *in and of itself,* should move to the Movie list where it belongs. This list is about the *books.* As I understand the current policy (and ListMods, please correct me if I'm off), when details of the movies are reliably traceable back to JKR (such as the extra scene in the first), and mention of them may help make a canon point, such movie mentions are allowed. But only then, and only in reference to a canon point. Reliable, to me, means trackable, citable statements made by trustworthy sources. To get back to the point, it was a clarification of a mistaken cite, and still stands--the flesh-eating slug repellent had *nothing* to do with the mandrakes in the book, all these entertaining ideas about the age of Hogwarts, the state of its greenhouses, the insect life that may feast on magical plants, or the wizarding pest control service employed notwithstanding. So, can we bring this back to redandgoldlion (sorry if I got that wrong)'s original question? Why is Hagrid buying a repellent to keep something that eats flesh, away from cabbages? Isn't that just slightly fishy? Is there perhaps another, more sinister and unrevealed reason he was in Knockturn Alley? (menacing chords build) I would think the "Hagrid is Ever So Evil" people would have jumped on this by now..... ~Amanda From judyshapiro at directvinternet.com Fri Nov 29 04:58:47 2002 From: judyshapiro at directvinternet.com (Judy) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 04:58:47 -0000 Subject: TBAY - CholericSadist!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47392 Judy strode over the Snapetheorists table, where Eileen, Eloise, and Diana were having a drink. "Why were you away so long?" Eileen asked. "I thought you were just taking a bathroom break." "Sorry," said Judy. "I was at a lecture on the Death Eater rampage at the campground and why it's a classic case of deindividuation. Anyway, it looks like I picked the right time to be gone." She looked at the mess all around her: ketchup packets stuck to the ceiling, guacamole on the floor. "What happened? Food fight?" "More like a tantrum," Eloise said. "You don't want to know the details. Anyway, it's high time you were back. Right before you left, you had misunderstood something I said. You thought I was claiming that Snape only left the Death Eaters because he felt that Voldemort wasn't sharing power enough. But, I meant that something caused him to realise that Voldemort's philosophy of there being no good and evil was wrong and only suggested, as I don't favour his conversion being as the result of a Bang, that it might have been because he realised that the only person to benefit fully from Voldemort's philosophy was Voldemort himself. That the father figure he thought he had seen in Voldemort wasn't there, or wasn't the kind of father he wanted (or perhaps was too like the father he had). I don't know what made him realise, but it was this dawning realisation that there *is* such a thing as good and evil and that we *are* accountable for the way we behave towards others that made his leaving the DEs imperative. That's the core philosophy of George's Sister Diana: 'Giving Evil Overlord's Regime Genuine Effort, Severus Soul Is Severely Troubled, Eventually Rendering Defection Indeed A Necessary Act.'" "Oh, I see now," said Judy. "Yes, I misunderstood. You aren't saying that he left the DEs because he decided Voldemort wasn't giving him a good deal. You're saying that Snape eventually saw through Voldemort's act and realized how selfish Voldemort was, which led him to re-evaluate the whole DE philosophy. That's possible. We're in agreement that *something* made Snape question the Death Eater philosophy. I'm of the opinion that it was his love for Lily, but I'm afraid the details are 'teww eww' to discuss in polite company." "I'm not sure I'd call the crowd here *polite* company," Diana said, looking at the food spattered everywhere. "Well, let's hope that Magic Dishwashers have a setting that allows them to magically clean floors and walls, as well as dishes," Judy said. "Really," said Eileen, looking with distaste at the cheese sauce on the floor. "Judy, I agree with you that Snape did question Voldemort's philosophy, and came to the conclusion that it was wrong. Is there anyone on the Bay, btw, who disagrees with this? Does Cindy still promote that Prince of Lies rubb... errr, theory?" Everyone shrugged their shoulders. "Well," Eileen continued, "The real question is how cruel Snape is. I don't really see Snape sitting down every morning, and going, 'Must get my daily fix of Muggle torture.' McNair, as you pointed out, I do wonder about, but Snape I see more as like a Komsomol woman I once read about. This woman took part in a rather vicious attack on certain 'kulaks' for no reason whatsoever.(It wasn't ordered by anyone, but when they went to tell these people to move out, things got out of hand.) Years later, she was extremely remorseful about this (though sad to say, there were plenty of others who weren't in the slightest, as far as can be seen.) She emphasized the fact that she and the others had numbed any original feelings they might have for the 'kulaks' with the idea that they were not human, 'vermin' was the word she repeatedly used. And, once she thought of them as 'vermin,' she could take pleasure in stomping them out." "If you're asking me if Snape might have taken part in an attack like that, I would have to say yes," Judy replied. "However, I believe that just about any person might do what this Komsomol woman did, under certain circumstances. When I was younger, I used to agonize over how cruel people can be and wonder if cruelty was part of human nature. I still agonize over how cruel people can be. But, I now think that 'Are people naturally cruel or naturally kind?' is not a meaningful question. People are heavily influenced by their situation and by those around them. Most people have the capacity for great cruelty *and* the capacity for extreme kindness, depending on the situation they are in. The important question is not 'Is human nature cruel or kind?' but 'How do we bring about situations that promote kindness, and end situations that promote cruelty?'" "So," said Eileen, "you are saying that Snape might have been 'in up to his eyebrows' in Death Eater misdeeds, but so might have any other person who happened to come within Voldemort's sphere of influence?" "Exactly," Judy replied. "I couldn't have said so better myself. I think Snape may have done awful things as a Death Eater, but this just means that he's human, not that he's a natural sadist. Of course, this still leaves the question of why Snape is so mean to the Gryffindor students. I rather like using the concept of the four humours when discussing Snape -- he does teach potions, after all. So, I've named my theory Choleric!Snape. It says that Snape has the sort of personality that naturally angers easily, that he sees the world as hostile to him and has a naturally resentful, envious personality. He's mean to the Gryffindors because he's convinced that they are getting privileges they don't deserve." "I think the idea that Snape has an resentful, envious personality would withstand a vigorous canon offense," says Eileen with a smile. "Go on." Judy thought for a moment. "Well, in saying that Snape tends to be angry, I may seem to be just stating the obvious. However, what I mean is that there's no need to use personality constructs such as sociopathy or sadism to explain why Snape does things such as insult Neville. The mere fact that Snape goes around being angry all the time makes it almost impossible for him to empathize with others. His lack of empathy provides the explanation of his treatment of Neville, so there's no reason to believe that Snape has such fairly rare traits as sociopathy or a natural urge for sadism." Eileen looked doubtful. "Are you saying that being angry and being sadistic are mutually exclusive? Because I hardly think that's the case." "What I'm doing is making a distinction between someone who is cruel out of anger, and someone who is cruel even when not angry," Judy said. "I would say that the first is normal, and the second is not. I think Voldemort is an example of the second type of person, someone who is cruel even when not angry. Voldemort, I'd say, enjoys cruelty because of the feeling of power it gives him over people. Even if everything was going his way, even if he had no reason to feel angry, he would still be cruel. In fact, everything *was* going his way at the height of his powers, yet he still indulged in cruelty just because it amused him -- "half of the muggle murders during Voldemort's reign were done just for fun." Voldemort is not normal; he is a sociopath. In fact, I've often wondered if JKR studied the concept of sociopathy when designing his character. Snape is different. I admit that he gets angry too easily. He doesn't know how to forgive. But, he doesn't go after people whom he feels have never hurt him. You can't say that about the other Death Eaters -- they were torturing the campground owner and his family after the Quidditch World Cup, just because they *could*. I don't think Snape is a sociopath like Voldemort or Lucius." "Oh wait a second," said Eileen. "Let's go back to your original analysis of Snape. 'He's mean to the Gryffindors because he's convinced that they are getting privileges they don't deserve,' you said. If there's one thing that's emphasized again and again it's that Malfoy and the others feel that they are being robbed of something that rightfully belongs to them, by the entry of muggleborns into their society. Hardly sane, but neither is this belief that Harry is getting priveleges he doesn't deserve at their first meeting. (Later maybe, but not then.) It's the same type of mindset at work. I can see Snape being very into the pureblood thing as a student." "I don't know if Snape was into the pureblood thing, or even if he *is* a pureblood," Judy said. "Regardless, I think he has a different mindset from Lucius' elitism. Lucius knows that he is already privileged, but feels he deserves even more privileges than he already has. He feels that he's a superior person and should be treated much better than other people. He is very high in self-esteem. (Possibly, his self-esteem is high but unstable, but that's another topic.) Snape, on the other hand, doesn't feel he *deserves more* privileges than other people, he just feels that he's *getting less* privileges than other people. I don't see Snape as being especially high in self-esteem. In fact, there are some indications that he is low in self-esteem, especially when he seems angry with himself after Fake!Moody taunts him about his Dark Mark. Snape looks at his half-full glass and sees it as 99% empty, which makes him angry. Lucius, on the other hand, knows that his cup is overflowing, but thinks that he's entitled to everyone else's cup, too. "As for Snape's reaction to Harry, well, that's a special case. Snape looks at Harry and sees James. He sees the fame that Harry got as the vanquisher of Voldemort, and feels that Harry doesn't deserve it, just as he felt James didn't deserve all the attention he got at school. Harry is an orphan and has had a hard life among muggles, but Snape doesn't think of that. His anger blinds him to it and prevents him from feeling empathy." Judy looked at the menu. "All this talking has made me hungry. Hmm, the CHOP Platter sounds appealing; I'll buy that." -- Judy Serenity **************************** Theory names and acronyms: CHOP = Cranium of Headmaster on a Platter; the theory that Voldemort will ask Snape to deliver Dumbledore's head to him as proof of Snape's loyalty. "Teeeww Eeeew" is discussed in Hypothetic Alley http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hypotheticalley.html From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Fri Nov 29 05:10:15 2002 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:10:15 EST Subject: Snape's reasons Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47393 First off, I'm sorry if this has been done to death. I just rejoined this list so I don't know if someone's had this same arguement or not. If they have, then I'm just agreeing ^^. I don't believe in the 'Snape joined LV because of some deep, emotional scars and defected when he 'saw the light' ' theory. My reason for both this joining LV and his defecting is this: He's a Slytherin through and through. I think he joined LV because he wanted power. Snape, however, wasn't blinded as many others were. He saw that LV would fall and joined the side he thought would give him what he wanted. Remember what the Sorting Hat said: "Or perhaps in Slytherin You'll make your real friends, Those cunning folk use any means To achieve their ends." Well, where exactly does it say 'any means' means lying and cheating and joining the 'dark side' and all that? Not that his conscience wouldn't figure in, but I think that's the main reason. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Fri Nov 29 05:41:06 2002 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:41:06 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flesh-eating slug repellent References: Message-ID: <3DE6FDF2.A257908C@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47394 David wrote: > > Yes, that was my reading too. *However*, it could be: > > - flesh-eating slugs only *really* become a menace after they have > become angry and malnourished after eating a diet of rabbit-food, and > Dumbledore has forbidden Hagrid from pacifying them by feeding them > Mrs Norris; > Maybe he is magically cross breeding the slugs with leeches? Then they got out of hand? With Hagrid, one never knows and it not something that one might want to ask about... Maybe Treelawny predicted that the slugs that Ron puked up would run amok and he got the stuff for them to use later? What is Rowling's thing with slugs anyways? Its as bad as socks! I mean, flesh-eating slugs, puking slugs up and bursting giant slugs at the World Cup? How do you tell if a slug is angry, anyways? And why Mrs Norris? Poor little red-eyed evil demon kitty...or whatever she is... > - they are called flesh-eating slugs because normally they eat flesh, > but what they really like is a nice tender cabbage. Hagrid, > naturally, isn't bothered as long as only a few students are at risk > and anyway, that's not his department; however, once his cabbages are > threatened he gets serious; > Never stand between a man and his cabbages, I say... > - Hagrid's cabbages are special. They require a regular diet of red > meat to achieve their full potential. The flesh-eating slugs are > competing, and have to go; Maybe the cabbages ARE made out of meat.. a special species of magical meaty cabbages. Yum? Maybe he plants then with corned beef to save time later? > > - he is hoping, by strategic placement of the repellant, to drive the > slugs in the direction of Mrs Norris, whose skeleton will be found > mysteriously picked bare, and the connection with Hagrid will never > be traced. > Whats he got against the cat, anyways? ;) > David, who would like to know (offlist, I think) the basis for > believing JKR is 'explaining more details to the studio than we ever > get from her books'. (Movie stuff after this... So ignore it if you are a literary snob.. err... canon-cop... err.. I mean you hate the movie.. or whatever...) >From my understanding from the early interviews I suffered hearing about in a house full of slobbering HP fans, the rights to the books were with the stipulation that Rowling had script control. Certainly they did buy rights to 7 books and only 4 are writen from what I had heard on some radio interview I heard in CA before I moved off to Texas. If in fact they bought rights to books not writen yet, plus the 5th book seems to be frozen with no release date, I fear the 5th book may not be released till there is a 5th movie as movie dramatizations? (gack! Can't wait THAT long or hope the movies keep getting made!) However, the whole argument as to if the movies are in any way canon is as pointless as the Lion King fans claiming Timon and Pumba (cartoom) is not canon. Next time Rowling does an interview, ASK her point blank how much control she has over script changes. Certainly the characters are very true to the books in a way that is more then just their having read the books would hint at. (side note: Anne McCaffrey's Dragonrider series was bought by Warner Bros and she pulled the project because they tried to change the story and she was totaly inflexible about script changes.. Its a thought they went with Rowling because she was willing to work with them.) (sleepy now and not spell-checking.. cope) Jazmyn From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 06:00:31 2002 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Anne) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 22:00:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Voldemort's Wand In-Reply-To: <1038525113.4136.16045.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021129060031.18718.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47395 I have also wondered what happened with Voldemort's wand between the failed AK and GoF and have had a new thought. Back when Lily and James decided to make Peter their secret-keeper, they must also have chosen a place to go into hiding *without telling anyone* but Peter or there would have been no point to the Fidelius Charm. Sirius said in the Shrieking Shack that he figured V would come after him, so the only safe thing would be *not* to know. Either that, or the Fidelius magically makes everyone but the Secret Keeper forget the secret. Therefore, I think that, after V attempted the AK on Harry, Pettigrew himself was the first one on the scene, since he was the only one who knew where to go. Perhaps Voldemort had failed to show up somewhere he was expected, and Pettigrew went to the Potters' to see what was up. I don't think he could actually see V in his less-than-spirit mode (i.e., V is and invisible entity, not the misty thing in TMTSNBM so viewers can see where he is), but when he saw Harry alive, he panicked. I imagine he spotted the wand nearby and panicked more, but he picked it up and went and hid out until he could formulate his plan to stash V's wand somewhere, frame Sirius, and fake his own death. Then, after making his escape in PoA, he retrieved it before making his way to Albania. As a side thought, I suppose he would have had to abandon his own wand on the blown-up street when he escaped. Maybe if he has a wand in GoF, it's Bertha Jorkins'? Anne __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From ashfae at technicaldetails.org Fri Nov 29 06:19:08 2002 From: ashfae at technicaldetails.org (Ashfae) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:19:08 -0700 (MST) Subject: The Fidelius Charm (was: Voldemort's Wand) In-Reply-To: <20021129060031.18718.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47396 > From: Anne > > Back when Lily and James decided to make Peter their > secret-keeper, they must also have chosen a place to > go into hiding *without telling anyone* but Peter or > there would have been no point to the Fidelius Charm. > Sirius said in the Shrieking Shack that he figured V > would come after him, so the only safe thing would be > *not* to know. Either that, or the Fidelius magically > makes everyone but the Secret Keeper forget the > secret. I've discussed this extensively with a number of people, and we came up with another possibility: that even if, say, Sirius knew where the Potters had been living, after the Fidelius Charm was cast, he wouldn't be able to see them. He'd walk right by the house, or perhaps even look inside and simply not be able to see them, not unless Peter told him they were there. Something like setting up one of Douglas Adams' "Somebody Else' Problem" fields on the Potters themselves. This would remain in effect until the Secret Keeper revealed their location, in which case the Fidelius Charm is completely broken, which would explain how Sirius and Hagrid knew to get there. Not sure how accurate this is, but it seemed possible. From Audra1976 at aol.com Fri Nov 29 06:46:54 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 01:46:54 -0500 Subject: Both Parents Work? Where's the Canon? Message-ID: <79E343F1.22C1DD87.022D3A68@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47397 lucky_kari at yahoo.ca writes: > Attack of the fanon, is it? As Ellen states, there is no reference to > either Lily or James's professions in canon. Me: Yes, I'm afraid so... There's so many fan fictions out there, and some are just really well-written, so they get ingrained in my mind! That's why I said "if." I didn't know exactly where I had gotten that from, but I guess I really liked the idea of husband and wife tag team Aurors. :) lucky_kari at yahoo.ca > Crouch describes [Mrs. Longbottom] as an auror's wife in the > Pensieve scene, meaning she most definitely was not an auror. > We have no information about any of the working witches in the books > being married (though some of them are said to be single: Bertha > Jorkins, Rita Skeeter). > Molly Weasley stays at home. > And, meanwhile we have Mrs. Fudge, Mrs. Crouch, and Mrs. Diggory > mentioned, with no indication of what they do, except that they're > mentioned in connection with their husbands who work at the > Ministry. Me: Gosh, when you put it that way...does that sound awfully sexist to anybody else? Only mentioning the wives in connection with their husbands and not really learning anything else about them? And it being specifically mentioned that the career women are husbandless and childless? Am I being too American? Is it more common maybe for mothers to stay at home in Britain, rather than to have both a career and a family? Audra From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Fri Nov 29 06:52:45 2002 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 01:52:45 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's Wand Message-ID: <11b.1a8060ac.2b1868bd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47398 In a message dated 11/28/02 8:02:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, kaityf at jorsm.com writes: > I don't see how this could work. For one thing, the spell he would have > used to try to kill Peter would have come out in the graveyard scene at the > > end of GoF. Also, there was no time for Sirius to take the wand anywhere > to hide it. He was caught almost immediately afterwards. And even if he > did by some strange method find time to hide the wand, how did it get back > to LV? I didn't say Sirius' plan worked..... *giggles* (Sorry, too much coffee!) Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I meant that *Peter* took LV's wand. As in, Peter took it into the sewers and gave it back to LV. Sirius wouldn't have wanted to hide the wand in the first place. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From the.gremlin at verizon.net Fri Nov 29 07:48:06 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 07:48:06 -0000 Subject: Snape's reasons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47399 Cassie wrote: "First off, I'm sorry if this has been done to death." Several times, in fact, and resurrected each time. "I just rejoined this list so I don't know if someone's had this same arguement or not. If they have, then I'm just agreeing ^^." > "I don't believe in the 'Snape joined LV because of some deep, emotional scars and defected when he 'saw the light' ' theory." Neither do I. "My reason for both this joining LV and his defecting is this: He's a Slytherin through and through. I think he joined LV because he wanted power. Snape, however, wasn't blinded as many others were. He saw that LV would fall and joined the side he thought would give him what he wanted. Remember what the Sorting Hat said: 'Or perhaps in Slytherin You'll make your real friends, Those cunning folk use any means To achieve their ends.'" I was actually discussing this with my boyfriend earlier. I don't think that Snape is, or was, as interested inthe Dark Arts as people make him out to be. He seems to be better at potions, as well as liking it more than 'foolish wand-waving'. My persoanl opinion is that V-Mort seemed to offer more opportunities for Snape to create potions, and perhaps become the best postions master in all the WW. After all, that's power, isn't it? Dark Arts just came along with it. "Well, where exactly does it say 'any means' means lying and cheating and joining the 'dark side' and all that? Not that his conscience wouldn't figure in, but I think that's the main reason. " I'm pretty much with you. See above theory. As for why he left, I don't believe in a huge insight, such as realizing he was in love with someone (Waits patiently for flames and tomatoes). I think that he just gradually realized what he had gotten himself into. His conscience finally did figure in, if not in a rather hoarse voice after years of screaming to deaf ears. I am also one of those who believes that he has blood on his hands. And I am the biggest Snape fan. As for the 'any means' part, there's the proof that there are good Slytherins out there. Ambition is good, when used correctly. To take a personal example, when I got my job at college, I was ambitious to make it through training in the minimum time (5 weeks). I was also ambitious to get the job, and my superiors saw my ambition and are recommending me for a supervisor position. I think that Snape just wanted to become as good at potions as he possibly could, and literally used any means: going to LV. Happy last 15 minutes of Thanksgiving! -Acire, who is thankful that Alan Rickman was included in People's Sexiest Men Issue. From n_a_pennington at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 05:25:41 2002 From: n_a_pennington at yahoo.com (n_a_pennington) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 05:25:41 -0000 Subject: Sirius and PTSD, also Sirius and Extroversion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47400 Judy wrote: >>>The second problem was that if Sirius had PTSD during PoA, he made an implausibly quick recovery by GoF. People don't get over PTSD that fast (if at all.)<<< I find this whole conversation strange because I think it's pretty obvious that he doesn't have PTSD. I completely agree that if he did have it in PoA he made the recovery of the century by GoF. I can't imagine anyone getting over PTSD that quickly. He's most likely very affected by everything that's happened to him, which seems to manifest itself in his borderline obsessive concern with Harry's well being. But really, do you think that JKR would have made a character with PTSD in a children's book? That's pretty adult subject matter. IMHO, PoA isn't really an accurate reading of Sirius's character. He's just escaped from a prison, and he's obsessed with finding Wormtail. It seems unfair to judge his actions in PoA because he isn't in a normal state of mind. Slashing the Fat Lady's painting and Ron's bed hangings is in an attempt to find Wormtail so he can exact his revenge. What I don't have any explanation for his why he tried to choke Harry. All I can think of is temporary insanity. One can hardly blame him after what he's been through. Judy wrote: >>>So, people are trying to find a way to reconcile these disparate aspects of his personality. I frankly think that's pointless. JKR often does wonderful characterizations, but she just didn't portray Sirius consistently.<<< You know, some people just aren't consistent people... maybe he's one of them. Sirius seems to me to be a very complex person.But until the 5th book arrives we can only speculate as to what he's really like. *~Natasha~* From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 29 08:42:50 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 08:42:50 -0000 Subject: Lead Us Not Into Temptation: A Question About MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47401 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "lucky_kari" wrote: > Anyway, Pip, a question about MAGIC DISHWASHER. You lay great > stress on the fact that DISHWASHER Dumbledore relies on Harry > making the right choice in the Shack, thus he's not coercing Harry. > > However, I've always found this one of the more disturbing facets > of the whole DISHWASHER theory, and I was never able to put my >finger on it till today. This is it. What if Harry hadn't made the > right choice? > I'm reminded of the line from the Lord's Prayer. "And lead us not >into temptation, but deliver us from all evil." I don't know how I >feel about a Dumbledore who would lead Harry into temptation, give a > thirteen year old boy, who hasn't exactly had the best moral > formation, the chance to do something he would regret for the rest >of his life. > > Any thoughts on this? > > Eileen Only brief ones. Before I gallop off to work, that is. >From the moment Harry's parents are betrayed, he is in a position (given the idea often quoted on the list of the WWs 'Warrior Culture') of being in temptation. The Wizarding World appears to think very highly of revenge. Lupin, who is presented throughout PoA in a sympathetic manner, is quite prepared to kill Pettigrew [PoA ch.19 p.273 UK hardback ]without benefit of a legal trial. So Harry may well be in a position that his culture was always going to *expect* him to revenge himself on both Voldemort and his parent's betrayer. Certainly Mr Weasley wants Harry to promise not to take action. Secondly, Harry in PoA is 13. This is probably not a coincidence - 13 in some cultures is the age when you become a man before God. You are considered capable of making your own moral decisions, and responsible for them. So he's being asked to make a moral decision at an age he should be capable of it, after nearly three years at Hogwarts where Dumbledore has had a pretty good opportunity both to direct Harry's moral formation, and to judge what state it's in. Also, Harry gets a lovely object lesson in how nasty, vicious and unpleasant the desire for revenge can be - from Snape. Who probably quite genuinely wanted some of his own back on Black and Lupin and had no objection whatsoever to showing that. Pip (who will be away from the internet until Sunday) From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Fri Nov 29 09:06:09 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:06:09 -0000 Subject: Lead Us Not Into Temptation: A Question About MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47402 Eileen wrote: > Anyway, Pip, a question about MAGIC DISHWASHER. You lay great stress > on the fact that DISHWASHER Dumbledore relies on Harry making the > right choice in the Shack, thus he's not coercing Harry. > > What if Harry hadn't made the right choice? > > I don't know how I feel > about a Dumbledore who would lead Harry into temptation, give a > thirteen year old boy, who hasn't exactly had the best moral > formation, the chance to do something he would regret for the rest of > his life. > > Any thoughts on this? > > Eileen Several thoughts, in fact, but unfortunately only have time for the most relevant. Firstly, the fact that Dumbledore is allowing Harry to make moral choices is hardly exclusive property of MAGIC DISHWASHER: there are several places in the books where Harry *is* allowed to make such choice, regardless of what is happening in the background, so if Harry happens to have a damaged moral compass, it could've put people in danger. Anyway, going back to MD. I really do believe that PS year (and to an extent, CoS year) were "test runs" for Harry. Especially during the first year, he is constantly *told* in no uncertain manner by both Snape and McGonagal to stop his investigations immediately and to keep within the rules. Yet Harry insists in looking for the stone, since it's in danger, and the adults won't listen to him. Dumbledore can see from there that Harry is indeed interrested in doing the right thing (although he might be Ever-So-Evil and wanting the stone for his own purposes... but then he wouldn't have been able to get the stone out of the mirror). Enter year two: Harry and Ron get into serious trouble this time, and *Dumbledore* himself tells them again, especifically, that if they put a toe out of line they will be expelled - if they break any rule, IIRC (which would include things like going down to the kitchens for food). Yet Harry, who would have to go back to the Dursleys if expelled and finish up in the local school, where bullies put new student's heads in the WCs, insists in taking personal responsability for something that is not his problem - he's not even personally in danger. Of course, he's worried, in fact, not only about Harmione, but also about all the other muggle borns in the school. By breking all sorts of rules, he manages to finally find the CoS, in time to go and save Ginny from death. And of course, all this is known to Dumbledore (who always knows what Harry has been doing, which in turn has led to all sorts of theories involving clocks, marauders maps, astronomy and more). He has kept an eye on Harry, to see one of the traits adquired from Voldemort was his evilness, and I think that by the third year, Dumbledore has more than enough proof that Harry wishes to do the right thing (and will try to do it with or without his approval). Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From Audra1976 at aol.com Fri Nov 29 10:56:50 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 05:56:50 -0500 Subject: Sirius and PTSD (A different view) Message-ID: <40783873.27B2C4E1.022D3A68@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47403 I would like those who suggest that Sirius may be suffering from PTSD to consider that the psychological and physical effects of *solitary confinement* are very similar to the symptoms of PTSD. I propose that Sirius was suffering from the effects sensory deprivation and solitary confinement from his time in Azkaban. I think it may also be relevant that some of the first psychiatric observations of the effects of solitary confinement were done (I believe by Harvard School of Medicine) in Alcatraz Federal Penitentiary, and many people are fairly certain that Azkaban is meant to sound like Alcatraz. Some possible effects of sensory deprivaton and solitary confinement (which I will refer to now as SD and SC for brevity's sake) that mimic PTSD are: vivid fantasies, hyper-responsivity to external stimuli, free-floating anxiety, and extreme motor restlessness. Other possible effects of SD and SC include doubt of oneself and troubles in determining what is real, problems with controlling impulses (sometimes with random violence), and emergence of primitive aggressive fantasies. I believe these effects can be used to explain the behaviors that people may find irreconcilable with Sirius's character. For example, judyshapio at directtvinternet.com writes <<> I'm not surprised that people differ in their reading of Sirius. After all, he is a very sympathetic character in some ways - he's suffered tremendously, and he takes great risks for Harry. But, he's also very unsympathetic in some ways. Even leaving aside the Prank, he chokes Harry in the Shack, he breaks Ron's leg, he slashes the Fat Lady for no apparent reason, and he's eagerly hunting down Peter, planning to fill him in cold blood. So, people are trying to find a way to reconcile these disparate aspects of his personality. I frankly think that's pointless. JKR often does wonderful characterizations, but she just didn't portray Sirius consistently.>> Me again: Alright, I'll take up for Jo Rowling *and* for Sirius Black now (can I expect some red robes to be delivered to me after this?) by using my hypothesis. 1.) Murderous intentions toward Peter -- this could be covered by the effect of primitive aggressive fantasies emerging, which are often of revenge toward the persons the prisoner perceives as responsible for their incarceraton; *or* this also could be considered a "crime of passion"--Peter was responsible for the death of two of Sirius's best friends, as well as framing him, and remember Lupin, a patient and kind character, was preparing to kill Peter as well. 2.) Breaking Ron's leg -- Sirius had no evil intentions toward Ron. The aggressive impulse was directed toward Peter. Unluckily for him, Ron just happened to be in between Sirius and Peter. Sirius may have been overly aggressive, but that can be explained by the effects of hyper-reactivity and reduction of impulse control,*or* the extreme action may simply have been Sirius's normal reaction to protect Harry from Peter, whom he believed would betray Harry to Voldemort just as he did James and Lily (Sirius may have believed this to be his last chance at Peter with the search for Sirius intensifying). 3.) Slashing the portrait -- This was an aggressive reaction, but I would like to point out that the portrait was only an object, and I consider it to be the equivalent of breaking down a door. He was trying to get to Peter, to defend his godson, whom he believed was in mortal danger from Peter, which is a very apparent reason. 4.) Choking Harry in the Shrieking Shack -- this may be the most difficult behavior to defend, but I believe it is explainable. I don't have my book handy, but I believe Harry had thrown himself at Sirius, punching and kicking, and yelling about Sirius killing his parents. I believe Sirius's reaction was to defend himself, and if he was hyper-reactive due to the effects of SD and SC then he may have reacted without realizing what he was doing. If I remember correctly, Sirius talked himself down, saying , "No, I've waited too long," or something to that effect. I also believe that Harry was capable, at that point, of knocking Sirius unconscious, and if that happened then Sirius wold be turned over to the Dementors without ever having told his story, or stopping Peter. He needed to restrain Harry. Before I close, I want to prematurely defend my position to those who will say that Sirius lived in a cave after escaping, which was solitary confinement as well, yet he did not show all these negative symptoms during that time. The studies on SD and SC show that there is another factor in the effects--the prisoner's *perceived intent* for being held in confinement. If the prisoner perceived he was being confined in a threatening situation, then he was more likely to develop adverse effects. On the other hand, if the prisoner perceived he was confined for a good reason, then he was far more likely to tolerate the circumstances. Sirius showed some of the effects after being confined in Azkabn because it was a threatening situation, and he was confined against his will, and unjustly. Sirius relaized why he had to confine himself in the cave. He was there to help Harry, and he had considerable more freedom than he had in Azkaban. Finally, I would like to point out, to Sirius's credit, that individuals who are mature and mentally healthy have a greater ability to tolerate isolation conditions, and Sirius seemed to tolerate them extremely well for 12 years. Audra From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri Nov 29 12:33:37 2002 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:33:37 -0000 Subject: SLashing the Fat Lady (was Re: Sirius and PTSD (A different view) In-Reply-To: <40783873.27B2C4E1.022D3A68@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47404 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Audra1976 at a... wrote: > 3.) Slashing the portrait -- This was an aggressive reaction, but I would like to point out that the portrait was only an object, and I consider it to be the equivalent of breaking down a door. He was trying to get to Peter, to defend his godson, whom he believed was in mortal danger from Peter, which is a very apparent reason. This ties in with something I was thinking last night. Sirius' slashing of the Fat Lady's portrait is often brought up as evidence of his unstable, impulsive, anger-driven personality. The portraits at Hogwarts have a greater ability to interact with humans than, say, magic photographs. But, does that make them sentient beings that can feel human feelings? Or are they magical creations designed to show human characteristics? If you think that these are feeling creatures, then of course Sirius' attack looks awful - a deranged lunatic with a knife attacking a slow- moving, unsuspecting lady in a pink dress who is woefully unprepared for such an attack. But, then, if the portraits are lving beings, isn't it somewhat creepy that they must live their "lives" confined to the world of canvas and frames? Maybe after Hermione frees the house elves, she can free the portrait people. I'm with Audra in seeing the portrait as an object. Slashing it with a knife, while an act of defacement, was evidence of frustration on Sirius' part because he couldn't get into the dorms and he knew Wormtail was in there with Harry. Had there been no portrait hanging there, Sirius would probably attacked whatever was covering the entranceway - pounding on the door with his fists, or kicking it with his feet or jabbing the knife around the door's handle/lock. Call me a Sirius Apologist, but I don't see an attack on a picture as the equivalent of an attack on a human being. Marianne From mrs_snape at softhome.net Fri Nov 29 12:19:23 2002 From: mrs_snape at softhome.net (mrs_snape at softhome.net) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 05:19:23 -0700 Subject: Lots of Snape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47405 Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) writes: > I (and therefore Snape) can imagine that Draco deliberately provoked the > attack in order to get Hagrid in trouble. Snape might have believed some > tale Draco told of the attack being unprovoked, or simply approved of any > scheme to trouble Hagrid. But would Snape want to get Hagrid into trouble? In the book we have lots of people that Snape doesn't approve of or quite openly dislikes, but we never really see him in direct interaction with Hagrid, do we? In PS, Hagrid does defend Snape vehemently against all accusations made by HHR even though their arguments should at least make him hesitate for a moment. One *could* assume that Hagrid is simply very respectful towards all teachers and in this case trusts Dumbledore's judgement but he doesn't exactly hide his anoyance about Lockhart. I just don't see Snape being malicious against Hagrid. Sure, he has in some aspects a rather simple mind and isn't the fastest but he respects Snape and doesn't seem to treat him with any of the suspicion/dislike/irritation that others do. It's a bit hard to judge since, as I said, there isn't much interaction between them. Dinah From dunphy_shane at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 12:25:16 2002 From: dunphy_shane at hotmail.com (shane dunphy) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:25:16 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flesh-eating slug repellent Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47406 redandgoldlion wrote: >an excellent question which had been niggling at me and never rose to the >surface, about why flesh-eating slugs would be eating cabbage (giving rise >to the inevitable, "*was* that why Hagrid was there...?" I have to admit, that this post gave me great cause for thought. Just like GulPlum, I had always thought of the slug repellant itself as being flesh-eating, not the slugs themselves. On further consideration, however, it occurred to me that Hagrid would be unlikely to use such a violent and unpleasant creation on any living thing. As we all know, it doesn't matter to Hagrid how slimy/scaly/dangerous/irritating an animal is, it is still something that merits affection. I daresay that a slug would ellicit the same reaction from him. This being the case, we must accept that the *slugs" are the flesh-eating part of the statement! These creatures would of course be even more attractive to Hagrid (as far as he's concerned, as we all know, the more monstrous the better). Now, as to the question of why a marauding bunch of flesh-eating slugs would be attacking the school cabbages...perhaps the slugs in question are omnivorous, and were eating the cabbages after having polished off some unfortunate creature from the Forbidden Forest? Perhaps the cabbages were some magical hybrid that Hagrid and Professor Sprout had concocted (fleshy cabbages - I don't really think so either) or more likely, Hagrid was lying. Now why would Hagrid be lying about his activities in the most unsavoury part of Diagon Alley we have yet encountered? Well, we know that Hagrid does seem to be drawn to unsavoury characters. In PS, we hear of him getting in to a card game with a strange hooded man (who we know turned out to be Quirrell). We know that he likes a drink (I think all of the four novels in the canon refer to Hagrid imbibing at some point or other). We also know that he has a trusting nature (sending Harry and Ron into the Forest in CoS after Aragog is a typical example of this). We also know that Hagrid is not beyond bending the rules of civilised wizarding society when it suits him (his wand being hidden in his umbrella while being banned from using magic - his experience with Norbert). It's very possible that Hagrid was down there arranging to purchase some new, bizarre animal for his Care of Magical Creatures class. It seems to me that he was in just the right place to find someone who would know how to lay hands on a baby manticore or something of that ilk. It is also possible that Hagrid has friends or maybe even relatives there. Do people live in Diagon Alley? If so, Knockturn Alley would probably be the slum area, wouldn't it? Can't you just see Hagrid finding such a place fascinating, wandering down there as a young wizard, chatting to people, not having to be concerned about being mugged because of his size. He's the type that would befriend a homeless wizard, or maybe an elderly wizard lving in a squat who is in ill-health, and would return when in the area to visit them and make sure they were okay. Maybe Hagrid has an uncle or cousin who has fallen on hard times and is living there or even working there, selling potions or illegal spells on the WW black market? Alternatively, Hagrid could have been there to buy illegally brewed wizard Hooch. He seems the type! Shane. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 12:59:59 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:59:59 -0000 Subject: The Fidelius Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47407 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Ashfae wrote: > I've discussed this extensively with a number of people, and we > came up with another possibility: that even if, say, Sirius knew where the > Potters had been living, after the Fidelius Charm was cast, he wouldn't be > able to see them. He'd walk right by the house, or perhaps even look > inside and simply not be able to see them, not unless Peter told him they > were there. Something like setting up one of Douglas Adams' "Somebody > Else' Problem" fields on the Potters themselves. This would remain in > effect until the Secret Keeper revealed their location, in which case the > Fidelius Charm is completely broken, which would explain how Sirius and > Hagrid knew to get there. Not sure how accurate this is, but it seemed > possible. Well, this may explain the consider Firebolt a 13 birthdays' worth gift from your godfather, at least. Sirius was unable to give Harry a 1st birthday-gift due to the Fidelius Charm, and unable to give him 2nd-13th birthday gift due to being in Azkaban. All we know is that Fidelius Charm *keeps* a secret unless the trusted Secret Keeper reveals it. Any secret. It is not widely used, either. Still, those who knew the secret already would have been able to *know* it, but totally unable to tell anyone. You-know-who lives there (and not Voldemort but one protected by Fidelius Charm) - so that may also explain Dumbledore's comment of calling Voldemort you- know-who being confusing... Oh I do hope that _Order of the Phoenix_ gets out soon to give us more answers! -- Finwitch From dunphy_shane at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 13:00:24 2002 From: dunphy_shane at hotmail.com (shane dunphy) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:00:24 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SLashing the Fat Lady (was Re: Sirius and PTSD (A different view) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47408 Audra1976 wrote: > > 3.) Slashing the portrait -- This was an aggressive reaction, but I >would like to point out that the portrait was only an object, and I >consider it to be the equivalent of breaking down a door. He was trying to >get to Peter, to defend his godson, whom he believed was in mortal danger >from Peter, which is a very apparent reason. Sirius is a very complex character. He has suffered a fantastic amount, and is riddled with guilt, anger, lust for vengeance and also an urge to over-compensate Harry for everything he has failed to provide over the years of his incarceration and Harry's miserable childhood with the Dursleys. His actions reflect that. I don't see the paintings as simply objects. They appear to be sentient, have personalities - the Fat Lady hiding in embarrassment and shame after Sirius's defacement of her is evidence that, to her, this was a psychologically damaging event. You often hear people saying after having had their homes burgled that they felt personally defiled, as if their home was no longer theirs. The Fat Lady's reaction is to go and hide in her friend's picture. This is a typical response. Sirius is driven by extreme emotional responses to the experiences he has had. He has suffered extremes of misery and pain, has endured major losses and has been betrayed by a close friend. He blames himself as much as Pettigrew. He admits this in the Shrieking Shack. His behaviour is not consistent, but then, as has already been mentioned on the list, many people's behaviour is inconsistent. Sirius seems to move rapidly from one extreme emotional state to another. In the Shrieking Shack, he almost choke's Harry, obviously temporarily insane at the thoughts of being so close to his moment of revenge, and then having these children standing in his way. Minutes later, on the way back to Hogwarts, he is asking Harry to come and live with him. He shifts from being murderous to being paternal as easily as that. I don't think that I need to point out the obvious parrallels between Sirius and Snape. While their back-story pits them against one another from the very start, there are huge similarities. Their responses to situations are not dissimilar, and their reluctance to bury the hatchet is also very alike. Both have suffered, both are conflicted, both share a common bond: their relationship with Harry and their loyalty to Dumbledore. We see both from Harry's POV, so of course Sirius comes off better. He's Harry's god-father. If we step back from this and look at the facts, we see that they are really much the same. Shane. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dunphy_shane at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 13:16:30 2002 From: dunphy_shane at hotmail.com (shane dunphy) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:16:30 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lucius caring for Draco? (was Re: Malfoys and Dursleys) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47409 David wrote: >I think the B&B scene is capable of more than one interpretation. While I >would not commend Lucius' criticism of Draco in front of Borgin as good >parenting, I think it is compatible with caring. It could reflect anxiety >about Draco's progress, and the (probably mistaken) belief that to mention >it in this way will encourage Draco to buck up. You could certainly interpret the text like that, but I think that there are a couple of points worth considering in relation to LM and Draco. Lucius's criticism seem to be focussed on how it looks having Draco less successful than a Muggle born like Hermione. This would lead us to believe that he is worried about how it will reflect on him. The criticism then does not show Lucius as a caring (if authoritarian) father, but a parent to whom children are a status symbol. His buying of the brooms for the Slytherin Quidditch team is another reflection of this. Rather than going out and practising with Draco, encouraging him to be a better player and gaining a position on the team through talent, he buys Draco a way in. This would relfect concern with how things look, rather than genuine concern for his son's welfare. David again: >There is one other intriguing little sidelight. In his very first >appearance, Draco talks about 'bullying' his father (IIRC) into getting him >a broomstick. This could be empty boasting, and it is almost certainly not >literal truth. It does suggest to me a bit more to the relationship than >stern authority. Granted. However, Lucius's parenting style would naturally encourage Draco to be demanding materially. Lucius's attitude appears to be that material displays of affection (buying your son a broom) will satisfy the child emotionally as well. This is not appropriate child care. As we have seen, Draco is a troubled, damaged child. Shane _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Nov 29 14:45:50 2002 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 14:45:50 -0000 Subject: Lucius caring for Draco? (was Re: Malfoys and Dursleys) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47410 Hey everyone! It has been months since I've written anything around here, but Draco is definitely a character that continues to intrigue me, so here goes... Heidi and David are in disagreement over whether or not Draco is neglected or loved by his father. I think Heidi and others make excellent points showing that Draco may not be the coddled kid he appears to be. However, I have to side with David here. While I don't think the Malfoys are the best examples of loving and affectionate parents, I don't see them as out-and-out abusive either. One example that always stands out for me is duriing the QWC. When the Malfoys show up in the same box as the Trio, Draco settles himself comfortably *between* both of his parents. Why did I stress the word 'between'? I found JKR's attention to that detail very telling. To me, Draco sitting between his parents is a symbol of their protection of him. He is their link, their center, their focus - you get my point, I'm sure. :-) I think other examples, such as Lucius's regular visits to Hogwarts, to be quite vague. Whether or not he spends time with Draco while Draco is in school can be interpreted as we please. I actually imagine that Lucius sees Draco just about every time he visits Hogwarts. We certainly know that Draco gets a lot of information from his father; why not during a leisurely lunch in Hogsmeade or over a cup of tea in the Slytherin common room? Buying brooms for the Slytherin Quidditch team is another example that can be seen in different ways. True, it is disgusting of Lucius to try and buy a win for his son and the team, and definitely true that Lucius is concerned with appearances, but he also could truly believe he is helping his son out by buying him the best. There are plenty of parents out there who think they are doing a good thing for their kids while damaging them at the same time. Draco sure as hell isn't learning how to be responsible and open-minded, but I'm sure his parents are raising him to be the adult they think he should be, if that makes sense. Now, whether or not Draco is or will be evil is a whole other debate... --jenny from ravenclaw, happy to post again ************************************ From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 15:18:49 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (rsteph1981) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:18:49 -0000 Subject: Malfoys and Dursleys In-Reply-To: <01b501c29686$ec48c010$0301a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47411 > > However, I disagree that Lucius doesn't *care* about his son. > > While I think your comparison between Lucius and Vernon is pretty > much > spot on, I'm not really sure what you look to in canon as evidence > that > Lucius cares about Draco. He certainly is critical of him in >Borgin & > Burkes, he leaves him on his own when drunken Death Eaters are > rampaging, and Draco doesn't speak a word in public, other than in > Borgin & Burkes, when Lucius is around. I think Lucius cares (though his own life is definitely more important to him than his son's). He's overly critical, but that doesn't mean he doesn't care. And Draco was in no danger from the drunken DE's. They're more apt to shake his hand and posture and suck up when they see him than they are to hurt him. You forget, Draco is virtually one of them. > His parents leave him at school over Christmas hols when Lucius *knows* > that a Basilisk is roaming around the school and it's implied in CoS > that on all of Lucius' visits to Hogwarts on various bits of "business" > that year, he never spends much time, if any at all, with Draco. > > Where in canon is the caring? > > Heidi There is no proof he doesn't spend time with Draco. And even if he didn't, he was busy. He had an agenda and it came first. There are lots of workaholic parents out there. And Lucius thought the diary/basilisk was going to go after mudbloods exclusively; his son was in no danger. Draco likely wanted to stay over Christmas (see if more mudbloods got petrified, etc.) And he'd keep Lucius up on anything that could get Dumbledore kicked out of Hogwarts. Lucius is a cold person, and I'm not sure that he does care about Draco, but I'm not sure he doesn't either. Rebecca From Audra1976 at aol.com Fri Nov 29 16:15:25 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:15:25 -0500 Subject: SLashing the Fat Lady (was Re: Sirius and PTSD (A different view) Message-ID: <71E4EEDA.47476BF3.022D3A68@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47412 dunphy_shane at hotmail.com writes: <<> I don't see the paintings as simply objects. They appear to be sentient, have personalities - the Fat Lady hiding in embarrassment and shame after Sirius's defacement of her is evidence that, to her, this was a psychologically damaging event.>> Me: The characters in the paintings do appear to carry out many complex behaviors, but we do not have proof that they experience emotions and thoughts in the same way we do. I place them, maybe a magical step up from, but in the same category as moving photograhs, or the images of the Wizard Cards that come with Chocolate Frogs, or the little moving figurines of the Quidditch World Cup players. Could the Dumbledore Wizard Card have an emotional reaction to being ripped in half? Would Ron be guilty of aggravated assault for ripping the arms off of his little Krum figurine? In our world, a computer-simulation that is made to look like a person could be programmed to reproduce actions that mimic embarrassment and shame, or even fear and pain, in response to certain input, but am I actually committing mass homicide when blow the arms, legs, and heads off fleeing computer-simulated people while playing Vice City on my PS2? I do beleive Sirius lost control and had a violent reaction when he slashed the painting, but in my view this reaction was no less moral that (the first example that comes to my mind) when Samuel L. Jackson's character in "Changing Lanes" smashed a bank's computer monitor in frustration when the information on the screen resulted in his being denied a loan. dunphy_shane at hotmail.com : < He shifts from being murderous to being paternal as easily as that.>> Me: Yes, and I also agree with your comparison of Sirius Black to Snape. What makes each of these characters intriguing, and so popular, is that they are not "painted with a broad brush" (I don't remember whose quote that was) to the same degree as other characters. We have more canon information about Snape so far, but the two do seem similar in that that are neither "sinners" nor "saints," as none of us are in the real world. Audra From nosref at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 14:45:39 2002 From: nosref at yahoo.com (Fer Mendoza) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 14:45:39 -0000 Subject: Why are *all* Muggles so tolerant of their wizard children? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47413 PAGAN MICHELLE I wrote: > One thing I've never been able to understand about this entire world > dreamed up by JKR...the WW goes to such lengths to hide themselves, and yet, wizards can be born to all-muggle families (i.e. Hermione Granger). > I just can't believe that every Muggle with a wizard child is tolerant and > even happy about it. > > Polaris Now me: IIRC, in the first book, Harry asked Hagrid (while they were on the boat magically paddling away from the hut on a rock in the middle of the sea)what the people in the MoM do. And Hagrid answered (not a direct quote) that they work to conceal the WW from the MW because if the MW found out they would be wanting magical solutions to all their problems. With this in mind, I think that many muggles would simply be thrilled to discover their child having magical powers. I think, Dursley is more of an excemption than a rule. :) - Fer From nosref at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 15:56:57 2002 From: nosref at yahoo.com (Fer Mendoza) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:56:57 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Umbrella Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47414 When Hagrid got expelled from Hogwarts, they broke his wand. Now he hides this broken wand inside his umbrella because technically we wasn't supposed to do magic. But in the Sorcerer's Stone he did a couple of spells when he went to fetch Harry (he lit a fire, placed a tail on dudley and made the boat paddle on it's own). Now I'm wondering, does this mean... ... if a wizard or a witch is not formally trained in a wizarding school, he/she may not do magic (like Hagrid, he was banned from doing any more magic) and he/she is forbidden to use (or buy) a wand? ...if someone refuses to go to any of the schools of magic, he/she may not practice or learn magic on his/her own? (Hermione seemed to get learned a few simple spells on her own) ...if a wizard/witch is expelled from a certain schoolof witchcraft and wizardry, he/she cannot enroll in any other school? Also, who monitors those who are banned from using magic? Why didn't anyone send an owl to Hagrid reminding him he wasn'tallowed to use magic when he casted all those spells? A sickle for your thoughts? - Fer From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Nov 29 16:05:18 2002 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 16:05:18 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Boggart class Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47415 I was rereading PoA, enjoying the many Snapey scenes in it, and came to the Chapter 7 scene where Lupin is about to teach the students how to fight the Boggart in the wardrobe in the staffroom. I like the way the scene was set, first of all - the room is empty, except for Snape. I wonder, first of all, what he's doing there, all alone - reading? Thinking? We seldom "intrude" upon Snape, and it's interesting that the one time we do, we don't really know what to make of him. How do people interpret his remark to Lupin, as he prepares to leave: "I'd rather not witness this"? Is he just being sarcastic, saying that he expects the students' efforts to be a bit of a fiasco? (It didn't happen - they all did pretty well.) Or is he suspecting something like what actually happens - he's going to figure in the lesson, as he's bound to be someone's greatest fear? Is he leaving in order to save face, or is he, in his own way, getting out of the way so he won't inhibit the lesson? Naturally, being Snape, he can't resist a parting shot at Neville and Hermione. I'd be interested in hearing other people's views on this. Wanda From nosref at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 16:07:44 2002 From: nosref at yahoo.com (Fer Mendoza) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 16:07:44 -0000 Subject: Revisitng The Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery In-Reply-To: <20021126072551.27034.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47416 I wrote: > The "Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of > Underage Sorcery" > states that an underaged wizard/witch cannot > practice magic outside > school. Do you think the Hogwarts express is > considered an extension > of the school (Hogwarts)? twileen responded: > It seems to me > that the decree is mostly used to keep those of a more > reckless age from exposing muggles to magic mostly > because its annoying to have to send people out to > modify memories. > Yes, I think that > the Hogwarts Express is considered an extension of > Hogwarts simply because its a relatively controlled > environment, and there is no way any muggles are going > to be exposed. Me again: I totally agree with you. The train is acontrolled environment, no muggle could have boarded it. IIRC, during the QWC, both Ron and Hermione lit their wands (LUMOS!) when they ran into the woods while the DEs are marching. Again they were not yet in school but again they used magic. Maybe they were not reprimanded because they were totally surrounded by wizards and the only muggles around were those being tortured by the DEs. Then again, the MoM may have had their arms full with the DE during that time to worry about some underage wizards lighting their wands. - Fer From mb2910 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 16:38:13 2002 From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (meira_q) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 16:38:13 -0000 Subject: Snape's reasons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47417 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote: > First off, I'm sorry if this has been done to death. I just rejoined this list so I don't know if someone's had this same arguement or not. If they have, then I'm just agreeing ^^. I had the same question... > I don't believe in the 'Snape joined LV because of some deep, emotional scars and defected when he 'saw the light' ' theory. I don't think so either. > My reason for both this joining LV and his defecting is this: He's a Slytherin through and through. I think he joined LV because he wanted power. Snape, however, wasn't blinded as many others were. He saw that LV would fall and joined the side he thought would give him what he wanted. *snip* here's what I think: Snape is not such a nasty git as he seems to be in the books (we see everything that goes on from Harry Potter's POV). I think that he's not interested in the Dark arts so much as he's interested in potions. He actually saves Harry Potter in more than one occasion, and in PoA, he risks his own life to go and save Harry and his friends, because he doesn't know that Sirius is innocent. We know for a fact that Snape was a spy for Dumbledore, and that he was a Death Eater, and that at the end of book 4 he goes to the secret mission that Dumbledore sends him to (I personally think that he's going to spy for Dumbledore again). Somewhere in the books it says that Snape went to ask Dumbledore to help him, but I think that he joined the DE's the first time around already being a spy for Dumbledore. Somehow I don't think that Snape would join the DE's out of personal motives. Of course, he could have joined out of peer pressure, but somehow he doesn't seem the type to give in to peer pressure (although he did go after MWPP to the Whomping Willow to see what they did there - but that seems to me to be a not-so-healthy-dose of curiosity). Meira. From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 16:52:36 2002 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 16:52:36 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Umbrella In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47418 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fer Mendoza" wrote: > When Hagrid got expelled from Hogwarts, they broke his wand. Now he > hides this broken wand inside his umbrella because technically we > wasn't supposed to do magic. But in the Sorcerer's Stone he did a > couple of spells when he went to fetch Harry (he lit a fire, placed a > tail on dudley and made the boat paddle on it's own). Now I'm > wondering, does this mean... > Me: Ok, well my thinking on the subject is this. Since Hagrid was expelled from Hogwarts, and he continues to work there, I think that is why he wasn't able to have a wand. One of the stipulations of staying at Hogwarts, even if it was to work, he couldn't practice magic. He also says in SS that he was given permission to use magic to go get Harry, and that was the only time. Now, since Hagrid was expelled for opening the Chamber of Secrets...but is now cleared from it...can he get another wand? They only snapped his in the first place cause of the expulsion. hmmm.... Jacqui From jodel at aol.com Fri Nov 29 18:43:19 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:43:19 EST Subject: Magical genetics Message-ID: <54.3560b66.2b190f47@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47419 I'm on three other lists where this subject crops up fom time to time, some of the suggestions from the last round of discussion make some sense here as well. Catlady says; >>Since every witch and wizard is homozygous for MAGIC, those are the only genes they can pass on to their children -- no wonder Squibs are rare! I think 'rare' like 'one in a generation'. Because either they DO have the GENES for Magic but their magic was broken by something like a birth defect, or one of their parents isn't really their parent. Implication: Momma Witch was cheating on Papa Wizard with a MUGGLE!<< One of the most recent postulations on one of my lists is that since it is obvious that everybody's magic is different from nearly everybody else's, there has to be more than one "magical" gene in play. And the probability is that most, even if not all, of these probably are recessive, since once introduced, a recessive can hang around for aeons. Quite a few magical genes may activate even if not doubled, however. These may only require that the gene from the other parent give neutral instructions rather than present an outright conflict. It was suggested that there are probably at least a couple of dozen such genes for magic, and that a subject must carry at least a minimum number of them (say, 8-10) before they are psychicly active enough to produce or channel magic, themselves. A subject might carry a LOT more than the minimum, however. Which would explain how some wizard/Muggle crosses consistently produce magical offspring while others may not. Another postulation was that in Rowling's world, magical genes are fairly widely spread in the Muggle population. That perhaps half the general population is carrying at least 1 or 2 magical genes. Muggle-born magical children result when two of these "near wizards" mate, and that once such a pairing has produced one magical child, the odds of their producing others are much higher. When the two "near wizards" carry gene sets that do not overlap, the resulting child may have as broad a range of magical capabilities as some of the best purebloods. And, rarely, in the case of two wizards with narrow-ranged gene sets, if something goes wrong, they might manage to produce a Squib. A sugestion that chromosonal damage as a result of curse damage or exposure to some dangerous magical process might be the cause of this. This possibility would also account for why some people with a normal to high amount of magical energy might still show a pronounced weakness in one or another area (example; Neville Longbottom shows a pronounced weakness in both Potions AND -- by his own account -- Transfiguration, leading one to suspect that he may not have inherited a full set of the genes necessary to producing "change" magic. His father's profession as an Auror would certainly have put him in harm's way for catching curses. Neville's difficulty in focusing his magic is probably due to some other cause than genetic damage, however.) -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Fri Nov 29 18:43:22 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:43:22 EST Subject: Voldemort's Wand Message-ID: <164.17d66bbe.2b190f4a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47420 Trishfavalon asks; >>In PS/SS Mr. Olivander says, "the wand chooses the wizard" and the tail feather from the same Phoenix was in Harry's and Voldemort's wand. If in fact, if it is the Phoenix that belonged to Gryffindor why would that wand chose Voldemort?<< Wands have no moral sensibilities. A feather does not have a brain. The wand only senses that a particular child's magic is of the right frequency for it to channel. And in any case, the wand did not choose Voldemort. It chose Tom Riddle. In the second thread regarding the wand, Anne asks, regarding Pettigrew: >>As a side thought, I suppose he would have had to abandon his own wand on the blown-up street when he escaped. Maybe if he has a wand in GoF, it's Bertha Jorkins'?<< The last thing we saw Pettigrew do before his escape in PoA was to grab the wand that Lupin dropped when he transformed. He could be using either it or Jorkin's wand (whichever works better for him.) He was also using Voldy's wand, until he was restored. Maybe he is making a collection... -JOdel From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 17:24:45 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 17:24:45 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's reasons References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47421 I tend to see Snape as a very ambitious character indeed. Now, this is not a wholly bad trait, but it does seen to be the mark of those who follow LV. If Snape, who is a very good potions master, was presented with a real challenge by LV, could he have resisted the temptation? Just like many scientists who work on their projects, heedless of the death, destruction and general misery their inventions cause. Perhaps LV could have rubbed Snap's nose in the results of his inventions and so Snape fled him. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From timotuathail at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 18:15:41 2002 From: timotuathail at yahoo.com (Tim Sweeney) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 18:15:41 -0000 Subject: Revisitng The Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47422 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fer Mendoza" wrote: > the MoM may have had their arms full with the DE during that > time to worry about some underage wizards lighting their wands. > > - Fer Likely. Note that Harry was not expelled for inflating Aunt Marge, despite the fact that the Ministry would have believed this to be a repeat offense (after the pudding incident in CoS), largely because the Ministry was rather preoccupied with the escape of Sirius Black and the threat it believed Mr. Black posed to Harry. And anyway, the Ministry was said to have been exhausted already that evening by the likes of Archie ("healthy breeze around my privates") and the Irish campers with their shamrock hillocks, etc. Tim Sweeney From cressida_tt at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 18:56:38 2002 From: cressida_tt at hotmail.com (Diane) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 18:56:38 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Umbrella In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47423 > Now, since Hagrid was expelled for opening the Chamber of > Secrets...but is now cleared from it...can he get another wand? They > only snapped his in the first place cause of the expulsion. hmmm.... > > Jacqui I think when Hagrid was expelled he was quite a junior pupil - second year maybe? I suppose he would have to take OWLS and NEWTS to become fully fledged/qualified under current Wizarding rulings for the UK. Collecting Harry would probably be classed as an emergency. However we did see Argus Filch reading up on a Quick Spell course so I'm not sure how this would fit into the equation. Diane From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 20:02:53 2002 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:02:53 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Boggart class In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47424 "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > I was rereading PoA, enjoying the many Snapey scenes in it, and came > to the Chapter 7 scene where Lupin is about to teach the students > how to fight the Boggart in the wardrobe in the staffroom. I like > the way the scene was set, first of all - the room is empty, except > for Snape. I wonder, first of all, what he's doing there, all > alone - > Wanda Me: Well I really hadn't thought about it until you mentioned it. But I think the reason Snape didn't want to be in the same room was because, he is still bitter about not having the DADA job. Why would he want to sit in while someone else teaches "his" job. There has got to be huge amounts of bitterness. If it was me, I know I wouldn't have stayed... Jacqui From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 20:21:53 2002 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:21:53 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Umbrella In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47425 Diane Wrote: > I think when Hagrid was expelled he was quite a junior pupil - second > year maybe? I suppose he would have to take OWLS and NEWTS to become > fully fledged/qualified under current Wizarding rulings for the UK. > Collecting Harry would probably be classed as an emergency. However > we did see Argus Filch reading up on a Quick Spell course so I'm not > sure how this would fit into the equation. > > Diane Me: Hagrid was actually in his third year when he got expelled. Now Filch is a different story. Did he even gradute from Hogwarts? Is a squib even able to go to Hogwarts? Neveille was scared because he thought he was a squib, and that he wasn't going to get accepted. That brings up a few interesting thigns to mind. If Filch is a squib and he did graduate from Hogwarts he must have had some kind of help getting through the exams...Mrs. Norris perhaps???? I am curius what everyone else thinks. Jacqui From SaalsG at cni-usa.com Fri Nov 29 21:03:54 2002 From: SaalsG at cni-usa.com (Grace Saalsaa) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:03:54 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Malfoys and Dursleys References: Message-ID: <005b01c297ea$d45ef6d0$d34053d1@DJF30D11> No: HPFGUIDX 47426 From: rsteph1981 Lucius is a cold person, and I'm not sure that he does care about Draco, but I'm not sure he doesn't either. Me: I think that he does care. Lucius is wealthy and most probably, doesn't need the job of being one of the school govenors. Yet, that's what he is. Among reasons other than the prestige of that position, it has to do with the fact that Draco is there at school and he cares what his son is learning - any by whom (Hagrid, Lupin). He cares enough to get Dumbledore to step down not only for the reasons of his plans in CoS, but because Dumbledore keeps hiring these people whom he doesn't approve of. Dumbledore lets students into the school who are not purebred - which means his son will have to brush shoulders with these kind of "inferior" people. Being involved in Draco's school is another way of being involved in Draco's life. It reminds me of parents who are great supports of Little League baseball and nuts when their kid strikes out or misses an easy catch. Lucius appears overly critical of Draco - but perhaps he has learned that expecting perfection and making Draco work for the praise is the best or only way to motivate Draco. Perhaps Draco takes the easy way out whenever he can, and if Lucius wants Draco to manifest those Slytherin characteristics, he needs to work harder at being cunning; to develop those skills. Lucius cares enough about Draco to buy the whole team broomsticks. Not cheap ones either. And Draco gets an owl bearing treats every day. If Lucius was so opposed to this sort of pampering, he'd put a stop to it. Being a stern father doesn't mean you don't love your kid. Grace From Ali at zymurgy.org Fri Nov 29 21:23:41 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:23:41 -0000 Subject: Malfoys and Dursleys In-Reply-To: <005b01c297ea$d45ef6d0$d34053d1@DJF30D11> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47427 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grace Saalsaa" wrote of Lucius:- > >>I think that he does care. Lucius is wealthy and most probably, doesn't need the job of being one of the school govenors. Yet, that's what he is.<<< I just thought I should say at this point, that school governors are unpaid positions in British schools. >>>> Among reasons other than the prestige of that position, it has to do with the fact that Draco is there at school and he cares what his son is learning - any by whom (Hagrid, Lupin). <<< Whilst this may well be true, I personally am not convinced. We have no evidence that Lucius became a Governor because Draco started at Hogwarts. It is equally possible that Lucius has been a governor for years, and is trying to dictate the way the school - a microcosm of the WW itself - is run, and hence the WW itself. >>>He cares enough to get Dumbledore to step down not only for the reasons of his plans in CoS, but because Dumbledore keeps hiring these people whom he doesn't approve of. Dumbledore lets students into the school who are not purebred - which means his son will have to brush shoulders with these kind of "inferior" people.<<< I'm sure that this would irk him, but once again I do not believe that his interest in getting rid of Mudbloods began because his son might have to interact with them. Indeed, Lucius was in Voldemort's inner circle when Draco was only a small baby. > >>>> Lucius appears overly critical of Draco - but perhaps he has learned that expecting perfection and making Draco work for the praise is the best or only way to motivate Draco. Perhaps Draco takes the easy way out whenever he can, and if Lucius wants Draco to manifest those Slytherin characteristics, he needs to work harder at being cunning; to develop those skills. <<< It is certainly true that a few people do perhaps work better when threatened with a stick rather than rewarded with a carrot, but modern day motivational experts seem to prefer a much softer approach. I think that Lucius expects the best, and demands the best, but I personally believe that his attitude has nothing to do with how best to motivate Draco, but rather how he wants to act. Draco will do as he says - or else. Lucius >>>> cares enough about Draco to buy the whole team broomsticks. Not cheap ones either. And Draco gets an owl bearing treats every day. If Lucius was so opposed to this sort of pampering, he'd put a stop to it. Being a stern father doesn't mean you don't love your kid.<<< Does providing presents and material goods mean that you love your kid though? I don't think so. To me the broomsticks were a bribe, an ostentatious show of what money and priviledge can bring, they had nothing whatsoever to do with love. Ali From CoolPetey7 at aol.com Fri Nov 29 21:11:21 2002 From: CoolPetey7 at aol.com (petenkalpaka) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:11:21 -0000 Subject: Malfoy might have a brother Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47428 JK Rowling usually adds new characters every book. And might have no idea who it is going to be. If Malfoy had a brother he probably would have not told Harry. So maybe in a future book, Malfoy's brother might be revealed. -Peter From cressida_tt at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 21:25:05 2002 From: cressida_tt at hotmail.com (Diane) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:25:05 -0000 Subject: Filch (was: Hagrid's Umbrella) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47429 Jacqui wrote: > Hagrid was actually in his third year when he got expelled. Now > Filch is a different story. Did he even gradute from Hogwarts? Is a > squib even able to go to Hogwarts? Neveille was scared because he > thought he was a squib, and that he wasn't going to get accepted. > That brings up a few interesting thigns to mind. If Filch is a squib > and he did graduate from Hogwarts he must have had some kind of help > getting through the exams...Mrs. Norris perhaps???? I am curius what > everyone else thinks. I got the impression that Filch had not been able to become pupil at Hogwarts at all probably because of the Neville thing. There is a suggestion from one of the JKR chats that someone will suddenly become able to do magic in later life (I rather think Petunia) but perhaps this can happen to squibs and Filch thinks that by practising the Quick Spell method it might bring out any latent magic. As for Mrs Norris, other than some kind of familiar I have no idea. Diane From urbana at charter.net Fri Nov 29 21:32:45 2002 From: urbana at charter.net (Anne R Urbanski) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:32:45 -0600 Subject: Snape's treatment of Draco/ Snape's Motivations Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47430 Hello, I just finished reading GoF to my 6-year-old daughter 2 nights ago (and am already in withdrawal waiting for Book 5!!) so I'm just starting to read the messages for this group, which I joined about a week ago. It's wonderful to see such terrific GROWNUP discussion of the Harry Potterverse:-) Shane Dunphy wrote: >My own feelings about it are that Snape at >times sees similarities between himself and Draco. There has been some >speculation on the list that Draco is emotionally neglected, and I tend to >agree with this. His two closest friends, Crabbe and Goyle are probably not >the most popular among the Slytherin class. He seems to be very needy, and >covers this up with a formulated superiority complex. He also has a >penchant for cruelty. Don't we see these behaviours in Snape himself? > Draco seems to have a lot of characteristics of a classic bully. But since he himself isn't particularly big, he likes/needs to have beefy kids like Crabbe and Goyle around because their size makes them good potential goons/enforcers (and being from a posh background himself, perhaps he doesn't want to get his own knuckles bloody). We also know, from the final chapters of GoF, that the fathers of both Crabbe and Goyle are Death Eaters, as is Lucius Malfoy. And it's obvious when Harry first encounters them at Hogwarts that Draco and the younger Crabbe and Goyle already are friends..though I've wondered what that friendship consists of, besides laughing at people they consider inferior and puffing themselves up in order to seem threatening. Also wanted to know if anyone can tell me if any Gryffindor grads besides Peter Pettigrew went to the Dark Side (or where I can find this info). Anne Urbanski Madison, WI, USA (and probable H/H shipper... but that's another topic AND list!) "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."? - Albus Dumbledore, in "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets" "Anyone could be the one to change your life" -- Monte Montgomery http://www.montemontgomery.com From ashfae at technicaldetails.org Fri Nov 29 23:14:16 2002 From: ashfae at technicaldetails.org (Ashfae) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 16:14:16 -0700 (MST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Malfoy might have a brother In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47431 > From: petenkalpaka > > JK Rowling usually adds new characters every book. And might have no > idea who it is going to be. If Malfoy had a brother he probably > would have not told Harry. So maybe in a future book, Malfoy's > brother might be revealed. > I find this a pretty unlikely possibility; if Draco had any siblings, they would almost certainly have been at the Quidditch World Cup with his family. Is there any evidence to suggest that Draco might have a brother? To throw in my two knuts on the great Draco-Lucius debate...Lucius might not be an exceptionally good parent by most standards, but then, his own standards seem to be different. What matters to him are prestige, power, the Malfoy name, heritage, yadda yadda. He's obviously raised Draco to have the same standards; or at least Draco's picked up these values quite well on his own, given his own tremendous snobbery. There might not be much *affection* between the two, but I've never seen any signs of abuse. Draco seems almost to worship his father; talks about him all the time, tells him everything that happens at school, has no fear of running to him with problems (i.e. getting turned into a ferret or tattling on Buckbeak). As for Lucius, he does pay attention at the least; whenever Draco is mistreated (in their opinion), he acts on it and ensures retribution. He helps Draco get onto the house Quidditch team by buying new brooms, and makes sure he has the best of everything. (whether this is actually good for Draco is a different point of contention) More telling is that he entrusts Draco with a certain amount of information: the location of where certain dark items are hidden in the Malfoy Manor, or a few details about the Chamber of Secrets and what happened the first time it was opened, or the fact that Sirius Black was James Potter's best friend who betrayed him (or so they thought). In general I very much get a sense of the Malfoys vs. the World, and Draco and Lucius are solidly on the same side, kicking everybody out of their way. Does this mean Draco will become a Death Eater? I've seen no evidence to suggest otherwise. He's delighted by the antics at the Quidditch World Cup, even proud that his father is taking part in them. He loathes Muggleborns and has often wished them dead. I do imagine that if he becomes a Death Eater himself, he'll find it's more than he's bargained for; Draco seems awfully sheltered in some ways (read: spoiled little brat). As for the money thing, there's too much evidence in the books that the Malfoys have gobs of money for me to believe otherwise. Lucius buys all those racing brooms for a pretty silly cause, to start with. More telling is the way he gives donations right and left; very cleverly, so that he appears to be a model citizen, and never without strings attached. But still easily. Draco always has the best of everything, and flaunts it; I very much doubt that they're secretly hard-up. Ashfae From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 22:53:54 2002 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 22:53:54 -0000 Subject: Flesh-eating slug repellent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47432 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "shane dunphy" wrote: (about possible reasons why Hagrid was in Knockturn Alley) > It's very possible that Hagrid > was down there arranging to purchase some new, bizarre animal for his Care > of Magical Creatures class. It seems to me that he was in just the right > place to find someone who would know how to lay hands on a baby manticore or > something of that ilk. Just pointing out that when Harry meets Hagrid in Knockturn Alley it's the start of his second year, and Hagrid doesn't become the CoMC teacher until the start of Harry's third year. So, seeing as Hagrid only has game-keeper duties at this point it is unlikely that this is the case. Although, with Hagrid's love of menacing animals he could have been possible that he was buying a 'baby manitcore or something of that ilf' for his own personal interest. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 22:33:22 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 22:33:22 -0000 Subject: Draco Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47433 I've been reading with great interest all the posts about Draco and the fanfics and he really is the character we all love to hate. However, I do not believe that he is as important a person as most of us and he himself seems to think. I see Draco as simply a bully and malicious troublecauser. We have no hint that he has a deeper character than simple racism (mudbloods) and hiding behind his two companions. He is so desperate for success and fame that he uses his father's money to buy his way on to the quiddich team and is spiteful enough to try and get Hagrid fired for his own mistake. His big mouth gets him into trouble more than once, he can't keep secrets (note how he hints about the tolement in GOF and Black's 'murder victims' in POA) and he's more than willing to spill dirt on Harry to Rita. While it is commonly supposed that Draco will join the DEs, I don't think that will happen, although for a surprising reason. I can't see LV wanting him too much, what does he bring to the DEs? He may be cunning, but he can't keep his mouth shut and he has a knack of making enemies out of people. Personally, I think Draco is an inflated person. Chris From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 23:32:33 2002 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 23:32:33 -0000 Subject: Harry's vault key Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47434 I am curious how Hagrid came to posses Harry's Gringott's vault key. Did he get it from Dumbledore? If he did, how did Dumbledore get it? He wasn't even at the Potter's on the night that Lily and James died. Hagrid was, but even so...how did Hagrid know about the small fortune in the first place? Is it possible that Harry's small fortune is actually from someone other than his parents? Jacqui From catlady at wicca.net Sat Nov 30 00:03:26 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 00:03:26 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Boggart class In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47435 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > the Chapter 7 scene where Lupin is about to teach the students > how to fight the Boggart in the wardrobe in the staffroom. (snip) > - the room is empty, except for Snape. I wonder, first of all, > what he's doing there, all alone - reading? Thinking? (snip) How > do people interpret his remark to Lupin, as he prepares to leave: > "I'd rather not witness this"? It always seems to me that Snape knew that Lupin was going to bring the third-year Gryffindor DADA class to the staffroom at that time to use the Boggart there -- It always seems to me that Snape was lying in wait for them, hoping that his improvised vicious remarks would rattle Lupin (and the kids, of course) enough to make the class be a fiasco. Canon for Snape's attitude: "His eyes were glittering and there was a nasty sneer playing around his mouth." It is my understanding that (except for the mysterious interchange with Dumbledore at end of GoF), that 'glitter' is what Snape's eyes do when he seizes a chance to exercise his malice. (And 'flash' is rage and 'gleam' is pride. And I admired Acire's theory that Snape has gemstones in his eye sockets instead of eyes.) Canon for Snape knowing about the Boggart class: "Boggarts like dark, enclosed spaces," said Professor Lupin. ... "This one moved in yesterday afternoon, and I asked the headmaster if the staff would leave it to give my third years some practice." The headmaster must have made some announcement to the staff (or put up a memo on the wall or spoken to each of them individually), asking them please don't destroy this Boggart with -- leave it for Lupin's third years. FANTASTIC BEASTS was a required book for Harry's first year even tho' he didn't have CoMC until third year. My theory is that FB was intended as a textbook for the first year DADA students, but Quirrel and Lockhart were such pathetic excuses for teachers that they didn't get to the dangerous beasts until third year. One evidence: in PoA they cover the same beasts in the same order as in FB. Another evidence: when Snape said he expected FIRST-YEARS to know all about werewolves, that might not have been a random nasty remark but a reference to werewolves being in the normal first-year curriculum. But in that case, Lupin should have been teaching the Boggart not merely to four classes (the third-years of each House), but to twelve classes (the first-years and second-years as well). From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Nov 30 02:04:20 2002 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 02:04:20 -0000 Subject: Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47436 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: >I do not believe that he is as important a person as most of us and he himself seems to think. > > I see Draco as simply a bully and malicious troublecauser. We have no hint that he has a deeper character than simple racism (mudbloods) and hiding behind his two companions. He is so desperate for success and fame that he uses his father's money to buy his way on to the quiddich team and is spiteful enough to try and get Hagrid fired for his own mistake. > > His big mouth gets him into trouble more than once... >I can't see LV wanting him too much, what does he bring to the DEs? He may be cunning, but he can't keep his mouth shut and he has a knack of making enemies out of people. > > Personally, I think Draco is an inflated person.> Wow. Within your argument, you seem to actually be proving some of the things you are saying Draco is not. Again I must say that the interpretations of Draco Malfoy are varied, and I do tend to believe that he won't be a DE or the next Big V, but I think there is a lot more to his character than just he "is an inflated person" (what exactly does that mean, anyway?). Why racism exists and how people deal with it is one of the definite themes throughout HP. JKR has approached racism from several different angles, Draco being one of them. I'd say his not so well formed racist beliefs are pretty important things to think about. For example, how does he really feel about Hermione? Is he simply lashing out at her because he is jealous, as was clearly established at the beginning of CoS? Is he possibly attracted to her and trying to deny it? Or is he not even thinking about what it means to call someone a Mudblood, but has heard the term so many times at home and thinks it is okay to say? There is definitely "a deeper character" to Draco, IMO. I'd like to see him stray from his father. How might he react to seeing Lucius kissing the hems of Voldemort? What if he decides to disagree with his father? Or what if Draco is rejected by the DEs? The possiblities plot-wise are amazing. The relationship with his father goes way beyond anything typical, as we've seen so many people discussing... for several years now! Whether or not Draco is abused is only one of the things I'd like to see JKR explore in relation to Draco. In fact, I think the fact that he is a bully shows us that something wrong has gone on. Most kids are not bullies and do not look to victimize others. Why is that something Draco seems to get pleasure from? I even find it interesting that he has chosen two large and practically mute Slytherins as his friends. Doesn't he want friends he can talk to? Laugh with? What does he feel about himself that he only chooses the company of morons? I'm not asking these questions because I am looking for answers here, as many of these things have been discussed many times on this list, but I think Draco is anything but two-dimensional. Just because he is a snotty, snobby, elitist, spoiled and materialistic kid, he is certainly not boring or unimportant. There will be plenty more of Draco Malfoy ahead - I'm sure of it. --jenny from ravenclaw ******** From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 30 02:40:49 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 02:40:49 -0000 Subject: Leading Into Temptation (TBAY style) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47437 "Psst. Grey." Leaning on the podium looking rather bored, The Wolf's right ear perked up and turned toward the side curtain. "Psst. Hey, Grey," the voice called a little louder. This time the other ear perked up, and Grey turned his head to the right to see what the voice wanted. Though, by this time, the voice had captured the attention of most of the audience in attendance. "Mel?" Grey attempted to whisper back. Melody poked her head between the side curtains. "Come here a minute," she beckoned. "Excuse me," Grey bowed to the debate moderator and turned to go see what Melody wanted. "But we're in the middle..." his opponent Eileen started to point out. Realizing she should follow courtesies, Melody popped out from behind the curtains and stood in front of the mod. "May I borrow Wolf for a moment?" "Umm..." the mod blustered shuffling some paperwork, "it is highly unusual, but...not against the rules...and they haven't said anything in a couple of hours...so, yes, you may." "Thank you," she piped grabbing Grey's paw and disappeared behind the side stage curtains and weaved amongst the rigging and pulleys with Grey Wolf in tow to reach the small open area behind the stage. "What's up Mel?" asked Grey. "I think your point out there about the "test run" of PS and CoS is deceptive," Melody began. "I mean - to say the obstacles were just a lot of hoopla just to determine whether Harry's moral compass is straight is a bit flippant. I mean - a man dies." "He would of died either way since it was Voldemort leaving the body, which he would of done eventually, that killed Quirrell," Grey pointed out. "But to say Dumbledore was 'feeling Harry out' as if he was observing Harry's reaction to a planted laced Christmas cakes is rather..." Melody said snapping to try to find the word. "Precarious?" Grey offered. "Yes, precarious but on our part," Melody said. "The flawed potion (Pip's original style) is not dependent on the outcome of the philosopher's stone. The flawed potion is 'The Plan'." "This I do know," Grey kindly stated wondering why Melody dragged him back here for this. "I have not encroached on your version of the philosopher's stone or compromised the original take of the stone. The fact that Dumbledore took advantage of the situation is possible in both versions." "No, I don't think so. Here - let me sketch it out," Melody said pulling a chalkboard out from a side closet. "You really like visual aids, don't you?" Grey laughed. Melody smiled. "I have to keep my hands busy while I talk. Have a seat." Grey found a chair that gave him ample tail room and got comfortable. "Ok," Melody began, "Two basic views of Book One and one big divergence for one of those. Oh, and these views are compatible with MD as far as I can tell." Melody wrote 'Non-bait' on one side of the board and 'Bait' on the other with two lines radiating from the word. "Now, let's focus on the non-bait first. The presumption that, I think, most people have. The view that PRESSURE COOKER *probably* adheres too. A view that can work with MD actually. If the obstacles were to purely protect the stone, they wanted to make it more difficult for Voldie. Non-bait stone means that Dumbledore fully intends to hide the stone from Voldemort and does not want him or anyone else to find it. So the mirror is just a chance for Harry to see his parents or an educational experience, and the flute was a fluke of chance. Oh, and Snape followed Quirrell around to know if Voldemort was close to the stone or not, but that really works for all three versions." "How does this all work with MD?" Grey asked. "Because as you said, they did not want Voldemort to get the stone and focus on the 'flawed potion'. Therefore, it is completely working with Dumbledore to keep the stone hidden well," Melody said. "But you say that Dumbledore takes the opportunity to see what Harry is made of." If that is so, then you need to change the idea that Dumbledore is not wanting Voldie to get to the stone." Grey furrowed his brow and asked, "How so? Dumbledore does not want Voldemort to get the stone, and he could not with the mirror." "Yes, but by saying Dumbledore wants Harry to go after the stone to see where his loyalties lie, you were speaking under the presumption that: (a) Voldie *would* get the stone (b) Dumbledore knew this and wanted him too Grey sat back in his chair. Melody put down the chalk and looked at Grey. "You see - then Dumbledore is using the stone for bait. Bait for Voldemort *and* Harry." Grey was quiet a minute when an echo of footsteps came from the main stage, and Moderator's head popped from behind the curtain and looked at them. "Can we have our debater back - please?" Grey growled and the Mod backed away. ""So what is the two divergence of the bait viewpoint?" Grey asked pointing to the two legs underneath 'Bait' urging Melody to continue. Melody stood there with chalk bouncing in hand. "That was really cool," she complimented. "Thank you," Grey grinned. "One must have priorities." "Well," Melody continued turning back to the board to fill in the blanks, "we have two possibilities with the Bait stone. And it all revolves around Gringott's." "Yes, it revolves around the purpose of the stone being in Gringott's. Now I only make this distinction because it changes the intentions of Dumbledore slightly, and if this is going to be a point of discussion about his motives, we need to have sketched out different angles of when he could of started planning the attraction of Voldemort to the stone." "Now, if Dumbledore put the stone in Gringott's to bait Voldemort, then obviously Dumbledore wants Voldemort to come after the stone from the start and the stone was placed there to be attractive, and then moved (in the nick of time, I might add) to bait Voldemort to the mirror room. Dumbledore could of intended Harry to follow Quirrelmort from the start. But, if the stone was placed in Gringott's for safe keeping only, and Dumbledore did not intend the Voldemort to come after it, then Dumbledore had to think fast on his feet to bring the stone to Hogwart's and set up a plan to lure Voldemort and eventually Harry to the stone. He had a month anyway, so it is possible." "And this also brings on the question as to what Dumbledore is doing with Harry Potter exactly. MD says Harry is only special because of his position as a life dept and 'love blood'. Testing the moral waters of Harry really does not stop Dumbledore from needing all this. Frankly all he could of learned about Harry's compass was whether he had *a lot* of work to do or not." "But that does not mean he does not need to know," Grey said quietly. "True, true," Melody conceded, "But if Dumbledore is planning for Harry to show his moral compass, then you have to say that Dumbledore is using the stone for bait. Dumbledore needs Quirrelmort *and* Harry in that chamber." She stopped and smiled twinkled-eye to Grey Wolf. "Now, which is it you follow then? Bait or Non-bait?" Melody Glad to be back to her computer after a small Thanksgiving break From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sat Nov 30 00:27:21 2002 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 00:27:21 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Boggart class In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47438 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > It always seems to me that Snape knew that Lupin was going to bring > the third-year Gryffindor DADA class to the staffroom at that time > to use the Boggart there -- It always seems to me that Snape was > lying in wait for them, hoping that his improvised vicious remarks > would rattle Lupin (and the kids, of course) enough to make the > class be a fiasco. > I'm sure that Snape knew about Lupin's plan to use the Boggart to teach his third-year class; I only question whether he would actually bother to find out Lupin's schedule and deliberately arrange to be in the staffroom ahead of time, just in order to deliver some barbs. It seems a bit more trouble than its worth - he can always torture the third-years in his OWN class, after all. I wonder a bit about the staffroom - is it often deserted? The other time I can recall when we see inside it is in PoA, and it's empty that time too, when Harry and Ron hide in the cupboard. On the other hand, in most schools the staffroom is pretty busy, with teachers taking a smoke and a cup of coffee between classes, though Hogwarts teachers probably have their own offices and their own apartments to retire to. Clearly, in the normal course of the day, the Hogwarts staffroom must just happen to be empty. But I wonder if on THIS occasion, the staffroom isn't empty *because* there's a Boggart infesting it? It wouldn't be so unusual for the teachers to avoid the place until Lupin's had his class and disposed of the pest. So why, then, is *Snape* there (if he isn't there deliberately)? Does he not mind the presence of a Boggart? Or does he go there because he knows that the other teachers will be away, and he can be alone? Myself, I like the idea of Snape seeking solitude - much better than my alternate theory, which is that when he's present, the other teachers just start leaving. Wanda From clicketykeys at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 02:02:28 2002 From: clicketykeys at yahoo.com (clicketykeys) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 02:02:28 -0000 Subject: Snape's Treatment of Draco/Malfoys and Dursleys In-Reply-To: <20021128031218.54720.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47439 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Anne wrote: > So many ways to abuse children here -- Draco, Dudley > and Harry -- and poor Harry coming out the best of the > lot -- who'd have thought? Because, sadly, I think I'd've thought. Harry's the only one of the three who's ever been /loved/, even though it was a very long time ago and for years he didn't know much about it. Draco and Dudley are both cared for as extensions of their parents, rather than on their own worth. - C.K. clicketykeys From bethg2 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 02:08:42 2002 From: bethg2 at yahoo.com (Beth ) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 02:08:42 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Boggart class In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47440 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > I was rereading PoA, enjoying the many Snapey scenes in it, and came > to the Chapter 7 scene where Lupin is about to teach the students > how to fight the Boggart in the wardrobe in the staffroom. I like > the way the scene was set, first of all - the room is empty, except > for Snape. I wonder, first of all, what he's doing there, all > alone - reading? Thinking? We seldom "intrude" upon Snape, and > it's interesting that the one time we do, we don't really know what > to make of him. How do people interpret his remark to Lupin, as he > prepares to leave: "I'd rather not witness this When I the boggart scene I felt Snape had another reason entirely for leaving the room quickly. There is no way that Severus Snape would want his greatest fear revealed to his students, or anyone else for that matter. It doesn't really matter what Snape Theory you subscribe to for this to be true. Whether his biggest fear was Voldemort, a dementor, Crouch as a MOM judge, or anything else you can imagine it would reveal too much about him for Snape, or JKR, to want it out in the open at this point. Beth Gaughan Bethg2 at yahoo.com From clicketykeys at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 02:37:27 2002 From: clicketykeys at yahoo.com (clicketykeys) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 02:37:27 -0000 Subject: Flesh-eating slug repellent In-Reply-To: <3DE626B7.4C7D37AC@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47441 > > redandgoldlion wrote: > > > > I was wondering why *flesh* eating slugs would be > > eating *cabbages.* When I looked up "flesh" on dictionary.com it > > brought up: > > Perhaps "flesh-eating" modifies not "slug" but "repellent." As in, don't spill this on your skin. And it was in Knockturn Alley not because it's to be used on dangerous creatures, but because it's a particularly dangerous concoction. - C.K. clicketykeys From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 03:21:21 2002 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 03:21:21 -0000 Subject: Harry's vault key In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47442 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jacqui" wrote: > I am curious how Hagrid came to posses Harry's Gringott's vault key. > Did he get it from Dumbledore? If he did, how did Dumbledore get > it? He wasn't even at the Potter's on the night that Lily and James > died. Hagrid was, but even so...how did Hagrid know about the small > fortune in the first place? Is it possible that Harry's small > fortune is actually from someone other than his parents? > > Jacqui Yes, I think he got it from Dumbledore. We don't know whether Dumbledore was at Potters' that night. Even if he wasn't there either Lily or James could give him the key earlier. I don't know, maybe when they went into hiding, just in case. I am inclined to think that money's indeed Harry's inheritance from his parents. Whom do you think these money is from? Alla From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 03:34:01 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 03:34:01 -0000 Subject: Wand with Fawkes' Tail Feather Choosing Voldemort (was: Voldemort's Wand) In-Reply-To: <20021129010033.69364.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47443 Trish in AZ wrote: > In PS/SS Mr. Olivander says, "the wand chooses the wizard" and the > tail feather from the same Phoenix was in Harry's and Voldemort's > wand. If in fact, if it is the Phoenix that belonged to Gryffindor > why would that wand chose Voldemort? Now me: Hopefully this hasn't already been said (as I confess I haven't read this entire thread yet), but I believe having Fawkes' tail feather in both Harry and Voldemort's wands signifies the role of "choice" in determining one's destiny. The "wand chooses the wizard" at the point at which the wand is purchased (IMO). I don't believe a wand has the ability to predict what the wizard it is choosing will make of his/her life in the future. What the wand has to go on is the potential presented by the wizard at the time of purchase. Both Harry and Voldemort (Tom Riddle at the time) present great promise when their wands are purchased, and both are equally worthy of possessing a wand containing Fawkes' tail feather (I believe a wand with Fawkes' tail feather is a worthy wand because I believe, as I've explained before, that there is a lot of evidence in canon that Fawkes was once Godric Gryffindor's phoenix). So, subsequent to the purchase of his wand, Riddle went bad. He went bad because he *chose* to go bad. He could have *chosen* to be a good wizard, and a mighty good wizard he could have been if he had directed his talents appropriately. ~Phyllis who finally saw CoS (the movie) today and is in raptures (they even got Petunia's salmon pink cocktail dress the right color!) From editor at texas.net Sat Nov 30 04:28:25 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 22:28:25 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and the Boggart class References: Message-ID: <004701c29828$ed818f40$5704a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 47444 Beth said > When I the boggart scene I felt Snape had another reason entirely for > leaving the room quickly. There is no way that Severus Snape would > want his greatest fear revealed to his students, or anyone else for > that matter. It doesn't really matter what Snape Theory you subscribe > to for this to be true. Whether his biggest fear was Voldemort, a > dementor, Crouch as a MOM judge, or anything else you can imagine it > would reveal too much about him for Snape, or JKR, to want it out in > the open at this point. Brilliance. Absolutely. I don't remember anyone ever suggesting this before (apologies if you have, I can't keep up with everything anymore), and it makes wonderful, perfect sense. I know, I know, with a whole room full of people it should have been easy for Snape to avoid the boggart, but why take a chance? Especially since, being Snape, his feelings seem to run deep, and boggarts may be drawn to greater fears. What if it got past the students..? No, Beth, I think you're right, and it works for both the reasons of Severus Snape, character, *and* JKR, writer. Brilliant. ~Amanda, premier Snapologist, who is just *delighted* to have a new Snapethought! And this with no book 5 yet! From DMCourt11 at cs.com Sat Nov 30 05:38:22 2002 From: DMCourt11 at cs.com (bookraptor11) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 05:38:22 -0000 Subject: Dementors Helping the DEs and the Two Franks (WAS: Dementors' Kiss) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47445 Marcia writes : > This puts me in a bit of a bad situation ? I am not really a big > supporter of the Fudge is evil camp, believing instead that his > purpose is to illustrate what happens when good men do nothing. > However, I'm cautiously coming to realize that Fudge must either be > evil or incredibly stupid. > GOF The Death Eaters p.564 > `The Lestranges should stand here,' said Voldemort quietly. some of V's speech> The Dementors will join us they are our natural > allies > GOF The Parting of the Ways p.614 > `The rest of us sleep less soundly in our beds, Cornelius, knowing > that you have put Lord Voldemort's most dangerous supporters in the > care of creatures who will join him the instant he asks them!' said > Dumbledore. > > What these references tell me, is that both Dumbledore and Voldemort > consider the Dementors to be on Voldemort's side and perhaps more > importantly that, Fudge was responsible for placing them at Azkaban. > if Fudge is a DE, what better morsel of good DE deed could he offer > Voldemort than to be able to say `Ok I know I didn't come looking for > you, but hey ? I was looking out for the faithful DEs but placing the > Dementors at Azkaban.' I also find it disturbing that Fudge was able > to very quickly summon a dementor to Hogwarts "for protection" when > interviewing ([sic] as no interview actually took place between Fudge > and Crouch Jr.). So I guess that's it ? I am stating for the record > that The Ministry and Fudge did in fact know the risks associated > with putting the Dementors in charge of Azkaban and they went ahead > and did it anyway. Voldemort states in GOF that the dementors "will join us" implying that they haven't been allies in the past. I believe it's possible that there had been some contact between V and the dementors during his first reign of terror and that there could have been ongoing negotions during V's absence. Voldemort knows many of his most loyal followers went to Azkaban rather than renounce him. When he states in GOF pb ed. pgs. 650-651 that "the Lestranges will be honored beyond their dreams" he clearly expects them to be in a condition to accept these honors. Sirius has stated how most people go mad and many lose the will to live and starve themselves. I have a feeling the DE in touch with the dementors (Lucius Malfoy, Evil Fudge?) worked a deal that the dementors would go easy of V's supporters in exchange for many tasty souls once Voldemort came back. I also have a theory* that Barty Crouch wasn't Kissed by the dementor; there was a plan worked out in advance that if he was exposed any dementor that reached him would fake the Kiss. We don't see it, we only have McGonagall and Fudge's view, and Crouch's face would have been hidden by the dementor's hood when it leaned down. I admit it's unlikely, but I like the idea of a nonKissed Crouch escaping from Azkaban or St. Mungo's (where do they keep the Kissed?), and taking everyone by surprise in a future book. Marcia also states that she is coming to believe in Evil Fudge or incredibly stupid Fudge. I think he might be Imperius controlled Fudge. If it was done by someone in close contact with him for years, like Malfoy, it could be very low level, not making him do unusual things, but perhaps influencing him to follow his worse instincts. Putting the dementors in charge of Azkaban, for example, because it plays on his fears of the DE's there, and bringing a dementor into the school for protection. Malfoy could be strengthening a natural inclination to stick his head in the sand about Voldemort by having him resist any proof Dumbledore offers about V's return. Donna *I believe it is my theory, not having read it anywhere that I know of, though realizing with the amount of posts here probably anything I think of has been written here already. If so, I apologize for taking it as my own. From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 03:37:46 2002 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 03:37:46 -0000 Subject: Harry's vault key In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47446 > Yes, I think he got it from Dumbledore. We don't know whether > Dumbledore was at Potters' that night. Even if he wasn't there either > Lily or James could give him the key earlier. I don't know, maybe > when they went into hiding, just in case. I am inclined to think that > money's indeed Harry's inheritance from his parents. Whom do you > think these money is from? > Alla I am not saying that it definately came from some where else, I am just trying to figure out how Hagrid or Dumbledore got the key in the first place. It doesn't sit well with me. Even if Dumbledore was there that night, Lily and James had no reason to think that their lives were about to end, therefor they would have no reason to give Dumbledore their vault key. In SS when Hagrid writes to Dumbledore saying he is going to take Harry to get his school things in london, that gives me the impression that he may have gotten it from Dumbledore...But I still can't figure out where Dumbledore got it...Any one have some ideas? Jacqui From clicketykeys at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 05:01:10 2002 From: clicketykeys at yahoo.com (clicketykeys) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 05:01:10 -0000 Subject: Magical genetics In-Reply-To: <54.3560b66.2b190f47@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47447 I'm going to be a wet blanket here. I don't believe I have come across anything that would lead me to believe that there is a biological basis for magic as it is presented in the Potterverse. Mind you, I'm /not/ ruling out the possibility - but I'd like to point out that there are other possibilities as well. I envision it as more of a 'birthright' - like an invisible sort of gift - generally passed down among families, but sometimes handed to someone /completely/ random. Rather than mutants or bastards, I would say that Squibs (and likewise mudbloods) are hiccups in the mystical continuum. C.K. clicketykeys From clicketykeys at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 05:45:05 2002 From: clicketykeys at yahoo.com (clicketykeys) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 05:45:05 -0000 Subject: Coupla questions - spoilers, predictions and general confusion Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47448 Something that has been sitting ill with me as I read all these DISHWASHER ruminations... Does anyone else see Cedric cast in the role of the red-shirted crew member? I mean, befor GoF came out there was all this to-do about one of the characters dying. I got to the end and I was like.... that's it? It's HIM? And sure, he was a nice guy and everything and I understand how his death impacts everyone at the school and in the WW, but... really. It seems like the REASON he was such a nice guy was so that we would care more when Rowling killed him off! Anyway, this kind of ties into DISHWASHER in light of the debates as to whether Dumbledore is complicit in the deaths of (among others, perhaps!) Cedric and Bertha. I'll warn you in advance, this is a meta- narrative perspective, meant a bit tongue-in-cheek, so take that into consideration. As the story continues to unfold over the course of several books, we /continue/ to have rising action - not just in each book, but in the story arc as a whole. This means that each conflict must be more and more significant. There must be more at stake. From this perspective, given the life and death struggles that have already been established as backstory in the books, someone has to die. Dumbledore is just a poor victim of circumstance. He can't help that the series sold so well that Rowling wrote a fourth book that continued the story and demanded higher conflict! Incidentally, if we follow this train of thought a bit further it stands to reason that there will be more casualties in the books to come. Me, I'm pretty sure Dumbledore has been marked with the bloody thumbprint... and I'm betting on Snape or Draco as well. Also, I'm wondering if "Insta-VaporMort" is canon or fanon. And last but not least, does anyone know offhand of any examples of scenes in the book that are written from the perspective of a / character/ other than Harry? I know there are some scenes written in 3rd-person omniscient, but not sure about otherwise. That's all. Thank you, everyone. - C.K. clicketykeys From dave at acbradio.org Sat Nov 30 05:52:21 2002 From: dave at acbradio.org (Dave Williams) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 05:52:21 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's vault key In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47449 All righty, My first post, be gentle with me. ---Jacqui writes: > I am curious how Hagrid came to posses Harry's Gringott's vault key. > Did he get it from Dumbledore? Well, assuming that the fortune is not compensation from the Ministry of Magic for their bungled attempts to deal with he who must not be named, resulting in the death of Harry's parents, :). Dumbledore seems like the most likely possibility. Although Hagrid could have been given the key or found it at the Potter house just before he first brings Harry to Privet Drive. It would seem consistent, in light of everything we know about Dumbledore's and Hagrid's relationship, that Dumbledore would have been happy to trust Hagrid with Harry's key. ---Jacqui continues: >...how did Hagrid know about the small fortune in the first place? It seems reasonable that if Hagrid is entrusted with Harry's life shortly after the death of Harry's parents, then whoever else was involved with setting the Potters' affairs in order, would also make sure that the fortune was kept in trust for Harry until such time as he needed it. ---Jacqui asks: > > Is it possible that Harry's small > fortune is actually from someone other than his parents? This would seem unlikely. I'm sure Hagrid says to Harry in one of the early chapters of book 1 when they first go to London something to the affect. "You don't think ya parents would leave you with nothing now do ya Harry?" Although, who knows. HP is JK's ball, we're just playing with it. -- Dave W - (Who probably won't stay on the list long as the traffic is immense) :) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 25/11/2002 From nosref at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 06:20:42 2002 From: nosref at yahoo.com (Fer Mendoza) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 06:20:42 -0000 Subject: Filch (was: Hagrid's Umbrella) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47450 Jacqui wrote: > Did he (Filch) even gradute from Hogwarts? Is a > squib even able to go to Hogwarts? Diane responded: > I got the impression that Filch had not been able to become pupil > at Hogwarts at all probably because of the Neville thing. There is a > suggestion from one of the JKR chats that someone will suddenly > become able to do magic in later life (I rather think Petunia) but > perhaps this can happen to squibs and Filch thinks that by actising > the Quick Spell method it might bring out any latent magic. Now me: I agree with Dianne. I don't think a squib cannot be a accepted in any wizarding school. It's as good as accepting muggles into Hogwarts. When Filch was practicing Quick Spell did he use a wand? This is not supported by canon but I'm pretty sure he needed to have a wand for him to be able to learn Quick Spell. Now this brings me back to one of my original questions. Can a person not enrolled in any wizarding school own (or buy) a wand? ...If so, what was the point of breaking Hagrid's wand when he can just buy another one? Was it jus a symbolic thing? ...If not, how did Filch get one to be able to practice Quick Spell? Did he confiscate one from the students? /Fer From indigo at indigosky.net Sat Nov 30 07:31:58 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 07:31:58 -0000 Subject: accidental magic In-Reply-To: <005c01c2966e$dc4e8ea0$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47451 Jazmyn: > > Note that the 'accidental magic' happens during stress and is not > > controlled. Takes a wand to control it properly.. > > You simply don't see kids under 11 given THEIR OWN wands.. Young Kevin > > and his daddy's wand is not an example of children being allowed wands > > because he was not supposed to be playing with it. Frankly 'mom' should > > have been as frantic as if she walked in on her kid playing with a .357 > > magnum, in my opinion.. > > > > Jazmyn Alina: > > Jazmyn, your point was that magic doesn't kick in until kids are 11 years > old. My point is it does. It may be induced by stress, yes, and something in > me seriously doubts that muggles can fly brooms. I think it takes magic for > a brook to actually start floating when you say "Up!" and for a muggle it > wouldn't do anything. That's arguable, I know. > > As for the child with the wand... No, mom shouldn't have been frantic as if > the kid was holding a gun. A gun can kill if the person holding it is strong > enough to squeeze the trigger. A wand can't do serious magic unless the > person holding it is a trained adult. Indigo: I'm not so sure about that, Alina. If the kid could intentionally blow up slugs at the World Cup with Daddy's wand, what's to say that he couldn't do worse if he really set his will to it? Remember, kids don't have the same scruples and rules-related knowledge and restrictions of their abilities as older kids/adults do. A wand in the hand of a particularly gifted or particularly strong- willed kid could potentially be very dangerous. Harry got Expecto Patronum as a third year, and Remus told him it might be far too advanced for a student his age, because there were full-fledged wizards who still hadn't mastered Expecto Patronum. Harry doesn't study as hard as Hermione does, but he mastered a spell that a teacher said was likely going to be too hard for him to master. And this is with time and history against him; he had grown up magic-free for his 11 years, as opposed to some of his all-wizard friends, like Ron and Neville. This, to me, implies that kid wizards have a great deal of untapped potential that they only have to focus really hard to realize magically. Alina: Remember Crouch!Moody told the class > that if they all got their wands out and started screaming "Avadar Kedavra" > he wouldn't even get a nosebleed. Indigo: I'm not so sure about this. Hermione was doing more advanced magic than the first years her first year, because of her desire to be good at everything. See the Patronus mention above. Harry can do advanced magic far beyond NEWT level in his third year. If that's possible for him, it's possible for other wizards [though Harry is, in fairness, a special case, due to the Voldemort-touch having given him some of the big V's powers]. [Just as Lockhart was useless at most magic but had a facility for Memory charms, by contrast]. Fake!Moody could've just been saying that as a precaution so that none of the kids would/could try. I could just see the subject coming up and Malfoy sneering at Harry and yelling "Avada Kedavra!" - - even if it does require a full-trained wizard to be a kill-spell, Draco's ill-will plus the exponentially growing malice Draco holds for Harry might well have given the spell *some* potency, if not lethal-level. This would've resulted in Ron yelling "Avada Kedavra" back at Draco, and Crabbe and Goyle yelling it back at Ron, and it would've become an Unforgivable Curses brawl for any kid in DADA class who wasn't too afraid [Neville] or who wasn't disrespectful of the rules [Hermione]. Practially and rationally speaking: I think Fake!Moody thought it better to convince the fourth years that even attempting Avada Kedavra would be a waste of time and effort. [snip] --Indigo [nursing a post-Feast Wars headache] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Nov 30 08:48:04 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 03:48:04 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and the Boggart class Message-ID: <1ba.9f61840.2b19d544@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47452 Amanda: > Beth said > > > When I the boggart scene I felt Snape had another reason entirely for > > leaving the room quickly. There is no way that Severus Snape would > > want his greatest fear revealed to his students, or anyone else for > > that matter. It doesn't really matter what Snape Theory you subscribe > > to for this to be true. Whether his biggest fear was Voldemort, a > > dementor, Crouch as a MOM judge, or anything else you can imagine it > > would reveal too much about him for Snape, or JKR, to want it out in > > the open at this point. > > Brilliance. Absolutely. I don't remember anyone ever suggesting this before > (apologies if you have, I can't keep up with everything anymore), and it > makes wonderful, perfect sense. > > It does and it ties in very well with an argument Porphyria once used when we were discussing why Snape apparently dropped out of protecting Harry and the Stone at the end of PS/SS. Part of it was that he couldn't risk facing the Mirror of Erised as he couldn't risk revealing his deepest desire (even to himself - not a good moment for someone like Snape to receive some devastating piece of self-revelation) at that point, in front of Voldemort. I think the original question was about why he was *in* the staffroom, not why he left. I'd never wondered too much about that, but then all these people have tried to work out the timetable at Hogwarts. I haven't followed these discussions too closely, but the impression I have is that Snape should have more than enough Potions classes to keep him occupied during the week, not to mention his preparation work. Whilst I would love to think that he has time to pop into the staff room for a break, to mark a few parchments or perhaps have a cup of tea and a chat to anyone else with a free period, I just can't see it happening. I think Catlady must be right: >It always seems to me that Snape knew that Lupin was going to bring >the third-year Gryffindor DADA class to the staffroom at that time >to use the Boggart there -- It always seems to me that Snape was >lying in wait for them, hoping that his improvised vicious remarks >would rattle Lupin (and the kids, of course) enough to make the >class be a fiasco And JKR gave him a free period just to do it! ;-) And then got the last laugh on him! She set him up, that's what she did. Cruel woman! ~Eloise ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You think that just because it's already happened, the past is finished and unhangeable? Oh no, the past is cloaked in multi-colored taffeta and every time we look at it we see a different hue. (Milan Kundera, Life is Elsewhere) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sqrfruit at hotmail.com Sat Nov 30 07:54:27 2002 From: sqrfruit at hotmail.com (sqrfruit) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 07:54:27 -0000 Subject: Revisitng The Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47453 Fer Mendoza wrote (message 47129): > Also, I think in the second book, the twins with HRH were playing > with exploding snaps while on the train on their way home. Again, > strictly speaking they were already "outside" the school. >From that scene: "They made the most of the last few hours in which they were allowed to do magic before the holidays. They played Exploding Snap..." etc. It states clearly that they were still allowed to do magic while on the train. Twileen Janeen wrote (message 47184): >Yes, I think that the Hogwarts Express is considered an extension of >Hogwarts simply because its a relatively controlled environment, and >there is no way any muggles are going to be exposed. Agreed. This would also allow for magic use in Hogsmeade during student trips, as they are accompanied by Hogwarts staff, and Hogsmeade is an all wizarding village. -Kate, who is angry at Yahoo for eating her last post. From cressida_tt at hotmail.com Sat Nov 30 08:16:01 2002 From: cressida_tt at hotmail.com (Diane) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 08:16:01 -0000 Subject: Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47454 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: > I've been reading with great interest all the posts about Draco and the fanfics and he really is the character we all love to hate. However, I do not believe that he is as important a person as most of us and he himself seems to think. > > I see Draco as simply a bully and malicious troublecauser. We have no hint that he has a deeper character than simple racism (mudbloods) and hiding behind his two companions. He is so desperate for success and fame that he uses his father's money to buy his way on to the quiddich team and is spiteful enough to try and get Hagrid fired for his own mistake. > > His big mouth gets him into trouble more than once, he can't keep secrets (note how he hints about the tolement in GOF and Black's 'murder victims' in POA) and he's more than willing to spill dirt on Harry to Rita. > > While it is commonly supposed that Draco will join the DEs, I don't think that will happen, although for a surprising reason. I can't see LV wanting him too much, what does he bring to the DEs? He may be cunning, but he can't keep his mouth shut and he has a knack of making enemies out of people. > > Personally, I think Draco is an inflated person. > > Chris Just to lend my support to this. We unfortunately have fanfiction to thank for the popular portrayal of Draco as the 'drop dead gorgeous sex god hero marries or otherwise Ginny'. If you actually analyse the portrayal in the books Draco is simply drawn as an unattractive and bullying, snobbish, spoilt brat and does not appear to have any hidden depths at all. As for joining the death eaters we shall no doubt find out. Diane From mb2910 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 30 09:17:07 2002 From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (meira_q) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 09:17:07 -0000 Subject: Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47455 Chris: [snip] I do not believe that he is as important a person as most of us and he himself seems to think. Me: He certainly has a not-so-healthy overdose of ego and confidence, but I do not think that JKR would have made his character such a central one (compared, for example, to Cho Chang) if he didn't have a very important place in the Grand Scheme of Things. Chris: I see Draco as simply a bully and malicious troublecauser. We have no hint that he has a deeper character than simple racism (mudbloods) and hiding behind his two companions. Me: Those are the few glimpses on Draco that we get in Cannon. Chris: He is so desperate for success and fame that he uses his father's money to buy his way on to the quiddich team and is spiteful enough to try and get Hagrid fired for his own mistake. His big mouth gets him into trouble more than once, he can't keep secrets (note how he hints about the tolement in GOF and Black's 'murder victims' in POA) and he's more than willing to spill dirt on Harry to Rita. Me: I agree with that, but I don't think he did those things because he is desperate for success and fame. Those events reinforce my opinion that JKR will write in one of the next books about Draco having to help Harry or something like that, and these events are there (among other reasons, such as character development) because then Ron and Harry will start saying: "Ewwwww... Malfoy? The amazing bouncing ferret? The one guy that would see Hermione dead? Yadda, yadda, yadda..." Chris: While it is commonly supposed that Draco will join the DEs, I don't think that will happen, although for a surprising reason. I can't see LV wanting him too much, what does he bring to the DEs? He may be cunning, but he can't keep his mouth shut and he has a knack of making enemies out of people. Personally, I think Draco is an inflated person. Me: I don't commonly suppose that Draco will join the DE's. He might, and then again, he might not. Jenny from Ravenclaw: [snip] I do tend to believe that he won't be a DE or the next Big V, but I think there is a lot more to his character than just he "is an inflated person" [snip] Why racism exists and how people deal with it is one of the definite themes throughout HP. JKR has approached racism from several different angles, Draco being one of them. Me: but she only talks about it from Harry's point of view. Even when at the beginning of GoF she talks about Voldie, Wormtail, Frank Bryce and Nagini at the Riddle House, she talks about it from Frank's PoV, and then we see Harry waking up from a very vivid dream that was exactly what has happened in the Riddle House. Jenny from Ravenclaw: I'd say his not so well formed racist beliefs are pretty important things to think about. For example, how does he really feel about Hermione? Is he simply lashing out at her because he is jealous, as was clearly established at the beginning of CoS? Me: Could be. Jenny from Ravenclaw: Is he possibly attracted to her and trying to deny it? Me: As much as I'd like to see a Slytherin/Gryffindor romance in Cannon, I doubt that we will see such a pairing (any Slyth/Gryff combination) outside the pages of fanfics *sad sigh*. Jenny from Ravenclaw: Or is he not even thinking about what it means to call someone a Mudblood, but has heard the term so many times at home and thinks it is okay to say? Me: I think that that would be a correct assumption. Even though he might turn out to be a DE, at 12 or 13, kids usually reflect their parents ideas and opinions. Jenny from Ravenclaw: There is definitely "a deeper character" to Draco, IMO. I'd like to see him stray from his father. How might he react to seeing Lucius kissing the hems of Voldemort? What if he decides to disagree with his father? Or what if Draco is rejected by the DEs? The possiblities plot-wise are amazing. The relationship with his father goes way beyond anything typical, as we've seen so many people discussing... for several years now! Whether or not Draco is abused is only one of the things I'd like to see JKR explore in relation to Draco. Me: I don't think that he's abused by his father. At least not in the way of being hit by him, or neglected. Jenny from Ravenclaw: In fact, I think the fact that he is a bully shows us that something wrong has gone on. Most kids are not bullies and do not look to victimize others. Why is that something Draco seems to get pleasure from? Me: Perhaps this is what he has been taught to do, how he has learned to act. Seeing that his father (putting it mildly) doesn't like muggles and mudbloods, is it a wonder that Draco acts the same way? Jenny from Ravenclaw: I even find it interesting that he has chosen two large and practically mute Slytherins as his friends. Doesn't he want friends he can talk to? Laugh with? What does he feel about himself that he only chooses the company of morons? Me: I think that Draco didn't actually `choose' Crabbe and Goyle as his friends. It is a possibility that since Crabbe's, Goyle's and Draco's parents were (are) DE's, they would have been a group of `friends', and would spend a lot of time together. Draco probably knew Crabbe and Goyle his whole life. Jenny from Ravenclaw: I'm not asking these questions because I am looking for answers here, as many of these things have been discussed many times on this list,... Me: I bet they have, but I'm posting my 2 knuts anyway *g*. Jenny from Ravenclaw: but I think Draco is anything but two- dimensional. Just because he is a snotty, snobby, elitist, spoiled and materialistic kid, he is certainly not boring or unimportant. There will be plenty more of Draco Malfoy ahead - I'm sure of it. Me: Amen to that! :) Meira From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sat Nov 30 12:14:50 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 12:14:50 -0000 Subject: Harry's vault key In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47456 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jacqui" wrote: > I am curious how Hagrid came to posses Harry's Gringott's vault key. > Did he get it from Dumbledore? If he did, how did Dumbledore get > it? He wasn't even at the Potter's on the night that Lily and James > died. Hagrid was, but even so...how did Hagrid know about the small > fortune in the first place? Is it possible that Harry's small > fortune is actually from someone other than his parents? > > Jacqui It has been theorized before that the Potters (James and Lily) left a few magical objects in the care of Dumbledore when they went into hiding. The reason behind this thinking is the fact that they seem to have hidden between muggle population (Lily would know how to fit in, and James was a fast learner), and certain objects had to go (including things like James quidditch broom, his invisibility cape, his copy of the marauders map if they each had one, etc.). Since they wouldn't be able to go into diagon alley to fetch WW money (and besides, they probably didn't need it, since they would be using pounds), it's reasonable to assume that they also left Dumbledore in charge of their state. Another possibility (which I don't remember having been proposed before) is that most of those things were left in charge of layers, and that Dumbledore had been nominated as next of kin. Not the first choice (Black would be the first choice), but maybe when you're put into Azkaban without trial you are not allowed to receive inheritances. Since I think Dumbledore is a reasonable second option, he would have received all those things that Lily and James wanted for their child to have when he was old enough. This theory has an advantage, too: there is no need for the Potters to have given away their key: they simply had a duplicate that had been placed in the trust of their layers. Their copy of the key blew up with the rest of the house, or was lost in the debris. No-one had to look for it, and it wasn't found: Dumbledore simply received the copy as part of the inheritance placed on his trust until Harry came of age or needed it. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From vincentjh at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 12:00:38 2002 From: vincentjh at yahoo.com (vincentjh) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 12:00:38 -0000 Subject: Revisitng The Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47457 "Fer Mendoza" wrote: > IIRC, during the QWC, both Ron and Hermione lit their wands (LUMOS!) > when they ran into the woods while the DEs are marching. Again they > were not yet in school but again they used magic. Maybe they were > not reprimanded because they were totally surrounded by wizards and > the only muggles around were those being tortured by the DEs. Then > again, the MoM may have had their arms full with the DE during that > time to worry about some underage wizards lighting their wands. > > - Fer If Ron's memory can be trusted, underage wizards are allowed to use magic in emergency. The situation during the QWC should qualify as such. "...underage wizards are allowed to use magic if it's a real emergency, section nineteen or something of the Restriction of Thingy" (CoS, US paperback p. 69) BTW, isn't it a bit unusual for a 12-year-old to memorize something like that? This isn't the only time Ron recalls a decree or a case, but IIRC he's not particularly good at history. Odd. VJH From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sat Nov 30 13:29:42 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 13:29:42 -0000 Subject: Leading Into Temptation (TBAY style) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47458 Melody stopped and smiled twinkled-eye to Grey Wolf. "Now, which is it you follow then? Bait or Non-bait?" Grey Wolf's face contorted into a depredator's grin and said "You will discover, Mel, just as I did, that there is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path." "And what is *that* supposed to mean, Grey?" "That just because I'm willing to expand a possibility it does not mean that I automatically believe in it. In fact, most of my non-MD contributions to the list are expositions of the prevalecent takes on a circumstance - the theories around it, if you will. If you'll allow me the chalk for a moment..." Grey Wolf extended it paw, and Meldoy deposited the chalk in it. Grey Wolf held it very carefully, and went towards the blackboard. "I'm going to start with a little history lesson, if you don't mind" said grey Wolf, while turning the blackboard to present a clean side, "You see, Mel, the original MD theory does not state anything about what goes on in the PS year. Pip was just examining the SS in that first post. One of my first contributions to the theory (what I call patches) was the fact that, for the potion to work, other methods of resurrection/recorporation that were better had to be discouraged. At that point, the bait theory hadn't been proposed yet, and thus we went for the non-bait: that the stone had been protected to discourage Voldemort from using that method" Grey Wolf circled the words 'protected PS' and joined them with a line to 'Flawed potion plan'. "Then, you came along and made an adition to the theory: that maybe the stone was a bait and that it was designed to pit Harry and Voldemort toghether to see if Voldemort could be destroyed that way". Grey Wolf drew a new circle, with 'bait' and a line connected to 'attacking with the love shield plan'. "Those are the two basic ramifications of the theory at this point and, as far as I can see, there is a 50/50 chance for either of them, and I'm going to sit on the fence in this particular issue. Because the fact is that, at this point, there is no way to tell. "Exactly my point," said Melody "I wasn't arguing that they weren't part of MD, but that > Non-bait stone means that Dumbledore > fully intends to hide the stone from Voldemort and does not want him > or anyone else to find it. So the mirror is just a chance for Harry > to see his parents or an educational experience, and the flute was a > fluke of chance." "Not exactly, Mel. The proof that the 'defenses' of the stone were rigged to allow easy passage for Harry and his friends are overwhelming. In my eyes, it is obvious that Dumbledore was indeed expecting them to go for it, and that is the basis of the MD-compatible, although independent theory of the 'educative defenses theory'. When I said that Dumbledore was testing Harry's moral compass, however, I wasn't refering to them. Your point was: > "I think your point out there about the "test run" of PS and CoS is > deceptive," Melody began. "I mean - to say the obstacles were just a > lot of hoopla just to determine whether Harry's moral compass is > straight is a bit flippant. The moral compass of Harry is checked when he decides to make a go for it, not by passing the obstacles. The fact of being able to overcome those obstacles is no proof of morality at all, really. Courage, intelligence, knowledge, logic, strategic reasoning, musical abilities, you name it. But not morality. No, the only moral is involved in the mirror itself -which is, indeed, the best idea Dumbledore has ever had: only someone who is devoid of 'evil intent,' of hunger for money and immortality could fetch the stone from the mirror. Thinking back, I doubt that Ron would've managed to fetch it (he would've seen himself rich thanks to it) and the same thing could be argued about Hermione (she might have seen herself experimenting with it, although I know it is more doubtful). But Harry really *doesn't want the stone for anything at all*. And this is all the proof Dumbledore needs to test Harry's moral compass. The rest is all education, in my eyes. Melody interrupted Grey monologue to say: > "Yes, but by saying Dumbledore wants Harry to go after the stone to > see where his loyalties lie, you were speaking under the presumption > that: > (a) Voldie *would* get the stone > (b) Dumbledore knew this and wanted him too "Not at all, Mel," answered Grey Wolf. "As I say, the mirror is indeed one of Dumbledore's greatest ideas: no-one who is evil can get the stone. In fact, when you get right down to it, no-one that has the slightiest ambition regarding eternal life or money (or fame, or a few other 'evil' intents) would be able to fetch the stone. If Harry *had* been ESE, he wouldn't have been able to fetch the stone any more than Voldemort could have, and thus the stone would've been secure. And if Harry was good, then he would face Voldemort and stop him from getting the stone. And if Voldemort showed he could win despite Harry's portection, Dumbledore was nearby anyway, to stop Voldemort (and since Voldemort was extremally weakened and Dumbledore was playing in home, so to speak, there was no doubt whatsoever to the outcome). So, you see, there was no way for Voldemort to get the stone. It was simply too well protected." Finally, you also mentioned that: > "And this also brings on the question as to what Dumbledore is doing > with Harry Potter exactly. MD says Harry is only special because of > his position as a life dept and 'love blood'. Testing the moral > waters of Harry really does not stop Dumbledore from needing all > this. Frankly all he could of learned about Harry's compass was > whether he had *a lot* of work to do or not." I have to point that Harry is more than an instrument in MD, Mel, and you should know that. Harry is being trained, more than anyone else in the school, and we are left to wander what has Dumbledore planned. If he is just another student, he should receive the same education. No, Dumbledore has surely something else in mind. But anyway, the important thing is that, as Eileen pointed out, that the SS plan rested upon Harry making a moral decision to save Peter's life, precipitating all this debate. My point at the time was -and still is- that Dumbledore has been observing Harry very closely ever since he came to school and, apart from guiding him and educating him in apropiate morality, he has also made sure that Harry's heart was in the correct place, and thus he knew Harry was to be trusted." Grey Wolf drew a few more sketches. 'Harry's moral judgement' was tied to 'Peter's life is saved' and all enclosed in a vaguley pentagonal form tagged 'SS'. A big arrow strted from the group and ended at 'Life debt', which was tied itself to 'main flawed ingredient' header and to 'other plans' supercircle, which included 'insider in Voldemort's circle?', 'repaid debt' and '...'. "I hope that you can see from this big mess that Harry's moral judgement is at the base of many of Dumbledore's plans, all the ones that can or could be derived from Peter's life debt. It is Harry's moral choice to spare his life, out of a deep-seated necessity of keeping his father's friends away from murder, that ties Peter to Harry with a life debt. Any iniciated in metathinking or overshadowing will tell you that the life-debt is important, and so will I, since it is important for Dumbledore, and it was all possible thanks to Harry's morality. And it fits MD plans because Dumbledore knew Harry's moral compass long before then. In three years time, it is easy to tell someone's moral code, after all, especially if he or she regularly risks his or her life for the sake of others, and Harry has done just that every other month, almost. Now, any questions? Since I've managed to get chalk all over my paws?" Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From conshydot at email.com Sat Nov 30 13:31:46 2002 From: conshydot at email.com (dasienko) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 13:31:46 -0000 Subject: Voices from the past In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47459 > SNIP> Why didn't Harry *see* his parent's death in this, BTW? He says he > *hears* them, but doesn't mention anything he saw except ever-so- > famous Green Light? No big psychological reason, methinks. James isn't in the room and Lily is carrying Harry on her hip with him facing out. He sees the Green Flash, but not the resulting death. But even if he has his head burrowed in Lily's breast he would only see the green flash. It would be interesting to know WHAT HAPPENS NEXT. Did he see Voldy 's transformation? Does he remember anything that happened next? WHO CAME TO Remove what was left of VOldy? From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Nov 30 13:53:59 2002 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 13:53:59 -0000 Subject: Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47460 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "meira_q" wrote: > ...reinforce my opinion that JKR will write in one of the next books about Draco having to help Harry or something like that... > I'm pretty sure that JKR has said something refuting that. Besides, wouldn't it be a bit too cliched if Draco did end up helping Harry? I can't imagine Harry ever needing help from Draco to begin with. The books have established again and again that Harry is the better wizard than Draco. I could see other scenarios though, where Draco does not turn out to be as awful as his father, but I do not ever see him turning around and being a helluva guy. Perhaps, like Snape, Draco will have some tough choices to make and he will do the right thing but won't be at peace with himself for it. We've already seen that he isn't even particularly nice to his friends - at least, I didn't think Draco was too respectful towards Crabbe and Goyle in the Polyjuice Potion chapter in CoS. Again, he may or may turn out to be a DE, but for Draco to become helpful towards others would take a major personality change. That wouldn't be such great writing on the part of JKR. I hope he *doesn't* help Harry. --jenny from ravenclaw *************************** From conshydot at email.com Sat Nov 30 14:13:04 2002 From: conshydot at email.com (dasienko) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:13:04 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47461 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jcainva01" > SNIP Voldie states that of the ones that are missing, two are at Hogwarts: one is coward (Kakarov); > one is lost forever and must die (Snape). If Snape was maintaining a > front for Lucius, I wonder what Lucius is thinking now? SNIP We always assume that Kakarov is the coward and Snape is lost forever, But what if it's the other way around? Snape's mision may be to go begging back to Voldy and get himself ingratiated into the inner circle. Snape could then insinuate himself as as double agent- pretend that he is spying at Hogwarts for Voldy and but really aiding D*dore. A story of Harry's Godmother--The Rosemary Box > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheRosemarybox/?yguid=82770813 From daniel.brent at cwctv.net Sat Nov 30 13:24:47 2002 From: daniel.brent at cwctv.net (evenflow200214) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 13:24:47 -0000 Subject: Some Questions = Theories Wanted Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47462 1) How would Ron have explained to the rest of the Weasley's about the disappearence of Scabbers and aquiring Pig? We can see that they do not know that Sirius is innocent in GoF and Ron supposedly has no money... How would he explain Pig? 2)The Weasley's have a clock that tells each of them where each member of the family is, home, work etc... Why then, during Harry and Ron's adventures with the spiders, would the clock for Ron not appear on "mortal peril"? Or when Ginny was in the Chamber or talking to Tom wouldn't the Weasley's be straight over to Hogwarts, banging down Dumbledore's door? Or when Ron was trapped with Sirius? The clock doesn't know that he's innocent... And he's chained to a werewolf. Why doesn't the clock tell the Weasely's that they are in "mortal danger"? 3) Where is the proof that Crouch attacked the Longbottoms? Sorry to reiterate it but it has not been proven that he is guilty... 4) How was Sirius allowed a flying motorbike and why did Dumbledore not react at Privet Drive? As far as he knows, Sirius is responsible yet he lets what Hagrid says about Sirius giving him the motorbike go over his head and doesn't even stop Hagrid when he says he wants to take the bike back to Sirius? Is this Dumbledore being lacklustre or something else? 5) How did Sirius know where to find Peter after the Potter's deaths? He seems to track him down a little too easily... Did Peter plan that Sirius find him in that particular street? And was it part of his and Voldemort's original plan, to pretend to blow himself up, thus framing Sirius for three murders? 6) How do the Paintings exist? Were they people who chose to become paintings? Are the in the control of the artist that drew them? 7) Will Harry and Cho get together, in your opinions? 8) Why did Snape leave Voldemort and join him in the first place, in your opinions? 9)Why did Tom become Voldemort? Was there a trigger do you think? 10) Is Fudge merely corrupt, a good man at heart, or evil? And to what degree? I know I've made some points I spoke about earlier but just trying to get some more discussion on it going... From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Nov 30 14:42:51 2002 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 09:42:51 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco Message-ID: <11a.1ad5d95d.2b1a286b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47463 jenny from ravenclaw: > I could see other scenarios though, where Draco does not turn out to > be as awful as his father, but I do not ever see him turning around > and being a helluva guy. Perhaps, like Snape, Draco will have some > tough choices to make and he will do the right thing but won't be at > peace with himself for it. We've already seen that he isn't even > particularly nice to his friends - at least, I didn't think Draco was > too respectful towards Crabbe and Goyle in the Polyjuice Potion > chapter in CoS. Again, he may or may turn out to be a DE, but for > Draco to become helpful towards others would take a major personality > change. That wouldn't be such great writing on the part of JKR. I > hope he *doesn't* help Harry. Me: I don't like the idea of Draco turning over a new leaf either, but I can sort of imagine him *peeking* at the other side. I could kind of see them becoming temporary allies. No change of heart or change of feelings towards each other...just doing what needs to be done. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Nov 30 15:02:02 2002 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 10:02:02 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and the Potters Message-ID: <132.17d0b238.2b1a2cea@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47464 In a message dated 11/30/2002 9:14:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, conshydot at email.com writes: > We always assume that Kakarov is the coward and Snape is lost > forever, But what if it's the other way around? Here's a wild thought. What if Snape was there? Remember, there were some DE's that Voldemort passed. He might have a hard time believing Harry even with Crouch Jr's confession and Dumbledore being so confident Harry was telling the truth. He does/did, after all, think Harry's just a little, trouble making boy who wants attention. Two things got me to thinking about this: "Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's eyes flew back to fudge." (GoF, ch 36) "This eyes lingered on Harry for a moment as Harry watched him. His expression was difficult to read. He looked as sour and unpleasant as ever. Harry continued to watch him, long after Snape had looked away." (GoF, ch 37) A bunch of people speculated that the latter might indicate Snape had a new found respect for Harry. If Dumbledore had told him later on what Harry had said I could imagine Snape thinking: "Great...the little brat lucks out and survives *another* attack by Lord Voldemort." My theory was that it might not be respect, but guilt. He had worked so hard to protect Harry at school (in his own way of course..) and here he had to stand and watch as he was tortured and almost killed. Just a thought ^^; ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Nov 30 15:14:46 2002 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 10:14:46 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Some Questions = Theories Wanted Message-ID: <5b.320f35ed.2b1a2fe6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47465 In a message dated 11/30/2002 9:16:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, daniel.brent at cwctv.net writes: > 2)The Weasley's have a clock that tells each of them where each > member of the family is, home, work etc... Why then, during Harry and > Ron's adventures with the spiders, would the clock for Ron not appear > on "mortal peril"? Or when Ginny was in the Chamber or talking to Tom > wouldn't the Weasley's be straight over to Hogwarts, banging down > Dumbledore's door? Or when Ron was trapped with Sirius? The clock > doesn't know that he's innocent... And he's chained to a werewolf. > Why doesn't the clock tell the Weasely's that they are in "mortal > danger"? Me: (adding on) And if one of the hands does land on "mortal peril", does the clock have a sort of alarm or anything that notifies the other weasleys? I can picture Mrs. Weasley walking by the clock and doing a double-take as she realizes Ron's 'hand' is on "mortal peril" >>>5) How did Sirius know where to find Peter after the Potter's deaths? >>He seems to track him down a little too easily... Did Peter plan that >>Sirius find him in that particular street? And was it part of his and >>Voldemort's original plan, to pretend to blow himself up, thus >>framing Sirius for three murders? Well, I don't think Sirius was suspected of any crime until the Peter incident. He could've easily talked to a few connections and tracked Peter down. Or perhaps they just ran into each other by chance. As for it all being planned...well, maybe Peter had time to think about it while he was hiding from Sirius and the other DE's. I don't think Voldemort would've helped him plan that. I can't see the Dark Lord saying, "Now just in case I die and someone comes after YOU I want you to pretend to blow yourself up, then turn into a rat and live with a wizard family." ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jenP_97 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 16:10:36 2002 From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:10:36 -0000 Subject: Some Questions = Theories Wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47466 Hi. I can't answer all of your questions... but I will pick out a few and give you my own theories... --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "evenflow200214" wrote: > 2)The Weasley's have a clock that tells each of them where each > member of the family is, home, work etc... Why then, during Harry > and Ron's adventures with the spiders, would the clock for Ron not > appear on "mortal peril"? Or when Ginny was in the Chamber or > talking to Tom wouldn't the Weasley's be straight over to Hogwarts, > banging down Dumbledore's door? Or when Ron was trapped with Sirius? > The clock doesn't know that he's innocent... And he's chained to a > werewolf. Why doesn't the clock tell the Weasely's that they are in > "mortal danger"? I'm thinking that the Weasleys have had this clock for so long that really, they don't notice it much anymore unless they're actively wondering where one of the members of the family is. For example, when Ginny is talking to Tom in the chamber, why would Molly get the idea in her head to wonder how Ginny's doing? She "knows" where she is - where all her other kids are - at school. If she "knows" this, then where's the motivation to read the clock? I like the idea that Lord Cassandra mentioned about an alarm. Now *that* would be interesting. Besides, in the vein of your next question, where's the proof that Molly and Arthur *weren't* on their way to Hogwarts to knock down Dumbledore's door? I mean, Arthur does work at the Ministry - it would take some time to locate him, and then time to get some floo powder (they were almost out at the beginning of the book, you know), and find a place to floo into. :) > 3) Where is the proof that Crouch attacked the Longbottoms? Sorry to > reiterate it but it has not been proven that he is guilty... Oh, I just have to agree with this (I know, I know - you can't agree with a question... okay, I have to *ask* this question, too). I understand that we're led to believe that Crouch was in on the torture of the Longbottoms at the end of GoF by the mere fact that he *was* a DE and acting on the instructions of V. But if we look closely at the actual words of the book, he doesn't deny being a DE in the trial proceedings. And in his ramblings at the end begin with his escape from Azkaban, not with the events leading up to it. There have been too many red herrings thrown to us by JKR to be absolutely sure that Crouch Jr. is guilty of what he's accused of. Now, personally? I don't know. He's guilty of plenty... of that I have no doubt. But wouldn't it be just like JKR to have someone else be guilty of it? > 6) How do the Paintings exist? Were they people who chose to become > paintings? Are the in the control of the artist that drew them? I'm thinking that it's basically like magical photography, but with magic paints. Someone in a position of (self-, in the case of Lockhart) importance (or with a lot of galleons) decides to have a portrait done "for posterity". Wizard artist comes in and does the painting... but instead of developing the picture with special potions/chemicals, he/she uses special paints. Perhaps they put a hair in the paint to capture some of the subject's essential nature. I doubt any artist control plays a part, except for the payment part of the equation. JenP, delurking on the main for a brief moment... From clicketykeys at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 15:53:18 2002 From: clicketykeys at yahoo.com (clicketykeys) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 15:53:18 -0000 Subject: Filch (was: Hagrid's Umbrella) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47467 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fer Mendoza" wrote: > > I agree with Dianne. I don't think a squib cannot be a accepted in > any wizarding school. It's as good as accepting muggles into > Hogwarts. ok, I presume you mean "I don't think a squib can be accepted." > > When Filch was practicing Quick Spell did he use a wand? This is not > supported by canon but I'm pretty sure he needed to have a wand for > him to be able to learn Quick Spell. Now this brings me back to one > of my original questions. Can a person not enrolled in any wizarding > school own (or buy) a wand? Sure, why not? A wand is merely a tool. > > ...If so, what was the point of breaking Hagrid's wand when he can > just buy another one? Was it jus a symbolic thing? > Heck no. I'm pretty sure Hagrid was a special case - he didn't get his wand broken "because" he was expelled. He got his wand broken (and was expelled) because he'd (supposedly) opened the chamber of secrets and (definitely, with Aragog) subjected the other students of the school to danger. To clarify: I think wand-breaking is a severe punishment in and of itself, and may happen to other wizards who aren't in school anymore... sort of a "bad, but not quite as bad as Azkaban" type of punishment. Personally, I think that was taking it a bit far in Hagrid's case, even when they thought he was the one responsible for Myrtle's death. To tell somebody that they can't do magic after it's been a part of their life forever... it'd be sort of like someone taking away our ability to read and write. It's severely limiting, and there's a huge stigma attached. Plus, with Hagrid, it's not like he can just "go Muggle." - C.K. clicketykeys From talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 15:57:43 2002 From: talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com (Darla) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 15:57:43 -0000 Subject: Some Questions = Theories Wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47468 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "evenflow200214" wrote: > 2)The Weasley's have a clock that tells each of them where each > member of the family is, home, work etc... Why then, during Harry and > Ron's adventures with the spiders, would the clock for Ron not appear > on "mortal peril"? Or when Ginny was in the Chamber or talking to Tom > wouldn't the Weasley's be straight over to Hogwarts, banging down > Dumbledore's door? Or when Ron was trapped with Sirius? The clock > doesn't know that he's innocent... And he's chained to a werewolf. > Why doesn't the clock tell the Weasely's that they are in "mortal > danger"? > **** Well, in all probability, the clock would have no knowledge that Sirius was supposedly evil. It probably just weighs up situations simply without prejudice, and since Ron was *not* actually in danger at that time, there would be no need for the 'mortal peril'. As for the others... isn't it possible that Mrs W could've been out on those occasions, or at the very least had no reason to check the clock because for all her knowledge the boys were safely at Hogwarts. *********** > 3) Where is the proof that Crouch attacked the Longbottoms? Sorry to > reiterate it but it has not been proven that he is guilty... > ***Too true, I agree with you there.***** > 4) How was Sirius allowed a flying motorbike and why did Dumbledore > not react at Privet Drive? As far as he knows, Sirius is responsible > yet he lets what Hagrid says about Sirius giving him the motorbike go > over his head and doesn't even stop Hagrid when he says he wants to > take the bike back to Sirius? Is this Dumbledore being lacklustre or > something else? ****Erm, my take on it is that Black wasn't under suspicion or beleived to be guilty 'till *afterwards*. *************** > > 5) How did Sirius know where to find Peter after the Potter's deaths? > He seems to track him down a little too easily... Did Peter plan that > Sirius find him in that particular street? And was it part of his and > Voldemort's original plan, to pretend to blow himself up, thus > framing Sirius for three murders? > ****Black and Peter were good friends, remember, and IMO if anyone were to realise that Peter had played traitor or was about to, it would be Black. Not a comprehensive explanation, I'm afraid, but just my take on it. Friends can sometimes be uncanny at reading each other and their moves. ********* > > 7) Will Harry and Cho get together, in your opinions? > **** I've pondered this... and I came to the conclusion that I just can't see it happening. Cho is Harry's first 'crush', and she offers J.K.R a great window to explore Harry's feelings concerning this, and girls in general, but she's not really dimensional enough to feature as a main character. She's almost perfect, as of course she has to be from Harry's POV, and if they were to get together... doesn't it undermine Harry's respect for Cedric?*************** 10) Is Fudge merely corrupt, a good man at heart, or evil? And to > what degree? > **** I love this question! So much to debate about. Personally, I think the largest impetus behind all of Fudge's actions is his underlying weakness and desire to be admired. He's too scared to stand too strongly against the tide and people's opinions, and in a way I don't blame him. Dumbledore is strong enough to handle it; he's much older, wiser, and stronger. Poor Fudge's life could be made hell by the likes of the Mayfoys' etc, and it's really fear for his own position that drives him. I don't think he's evil; that's too strong a word... but I believe he wants power, and respect (isn't that desire reflected in his job position?), neither of which he truely has as of yet (not compared to Dumbledore anyway), and this is something Voldemort could most certianly use to his advantage. I think Fudge is a very susceptable character, and for that reason alone, a dangerous one. But not really *evil*. ************** Darla :) From hogwarts_harry78 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 16:36:10 2002 From: hogwarts_harry78 at yahoo.com (hogwarts_harry78) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:36:10 -0000 Subject: How did Fudge know? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47469 There's something that has been bugging me ever since I first read Prisoner of Azkaban, and I haven't seen it discussed before (I apologize if it has been, and I'd appreciate if someone could point me to the relevant thread). It's in the last chapter of PoA, at the end of the conversation between Fudge and Dumbledore in the hospital wing (British paperback edition, page 453): "'And the Dementors?' said Dumbledore. 'They'll be removed from the school, I trust?' 'Oh, yes, they'll have to go,' said Fudge, running his fingers distractedly through his hair. 'Never dreamed they'd attempt to administer the Kiss on an innocent boy ... completely out of control ..." Now, my question is: how does Fudge know that a Dementor tried to kiss Harry? Snape couldn't have told him that, because he says he has no idea what made the Dementors retreat, and he adds, "By the time I had come round they were heading back to their positions at the entrances ..." (page 417). Hermione and Sirius were unconscious by the time the Dementor tried to administer the Kiss. The only person who knows about the whole thing is Harry, and we know he hasn't told Fudge anything. So, how did Fudge find out? The only theory I can come up with is that he is indeed evil and that he was the one who ordered the Dementors to kiss Harry in the first place. Any other ideas? Or am I missing something obvious? This is my first post, by the way, so I hope I did everything right. :) Andi From Sunnylove0 at aol.com Sat Nov 30 16:44:09 2002 From: Sunnylove0 at aol.com (Sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 11:44:09 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's vault key Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47470 In a message dated 11/29/2002 11:45:11 PM Mountain Standard Time, jasonjacqui at yahoo.com writes: > I am not saying that it definately came from some where else, I am > just trying to figure out how Hagrid or Dumbledore got the key in the > first place. It doesn't sit well with me. Even if Dumbledore was > there that night, Lily and James had no reason to think that their > lives were about to end, therefor they would have no reason to give > Dumbledore their vault key. And also, why would James give his invisibility cloak to Dumbledore? I think James and Lily somehow thought they were going to be killed by Voldemort (Trelawney's first prediction, perhaps?) and went to Dumbledore to give him Harry and several items they did not want to fall into the DE's hands, but Dumbledore convinced them to hide themselves and the baby with the Fidelius Charm, but James insisted he keep the stuff for some reason. (full of holes I know) The Queen of Serpents [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dunphy_shane at hotmail.com Sat Nov 30 16:16:22 2002 From: dunphy_shane at hotmail.com (shane dunphy) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:16:22 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flesh-eating slug repellent Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47471 I wrote in a previous post: > > It's very possible that Hagrid > was down there arranging to purchase >some new, bizarre animal for his Care > of Magical Creatures class. Laurasia wrote: >Just pointing out that when Harry meets Hagrid in Knockturn Alley it's the >start of his second year, and Hagrid doesn't become the CoMC teacher until >the start of Harry's third year. Me: You're right of course. Laurasia again: >Although, with Hagrid's love of menacing animals he could have been >possible that he was buying a 'baby manitcore or something of that ilk' for >his own personal interest. That's pretty much what I meant. Shane. From dunphy_shane at hotmail.com Sat Nov 30 16:45:45 2002 From: dunphy_shane at hotmail.com (shane dunphy) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:45:45 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47472 Chris wrote: >I see Draco as simply a bully and malicious troublecauser. We have no >hint >that he has a deeper character than simple racism (mudbloods) and >hiding >behind his two companions. This is certainly an interpretation, but I find it difficult to agree with. I mean, is *anyone* that shallow? Draco of course is portrayed from Harry's POV, so we see in Draco what Harry sees in him. There is no benefit for Harry in spending large amounts of time with Draco, getting to know him better, so we only experience Draco when he is giving Harry a hard time, or being unpleasant to Ron, Hermione, Neville and the rest of Harry's group. We also get some glimpses of Draco away fron HRH in CoS, in Borgin's and in the Polyjuice chapter. Both of these scenes really only confirm what we already know about Draco, but they do give us some clues as to a deeper side of Draco's character. The scene in Borgin's is the first time we see Draco with Lucius, and the scene during the Polyjuice chapter shows us how Draco is with Crabbe and Goyle (of course, he is really with Harry and Ron, but he doesn't know this)when they are alone. Now, it would be easy to say that both of these scenes simply show us more of Draco as a sly, nasty little boy. And they do. However, they also tell us more about *why* Draco is a sly, nasty little boy. My understanding of what we try to do on this list is that we attempt to (in an adult manner, using whatever academic or life skills we have accumulated) discuss and analyse the books and seek motivations and drives that may not be immediately apparent in the text, yet are there none-the-less. I've learned a great deal since starting to participate. I had a discussion with my wife recently, another HP fan, about the Slytherins. She believes that, other than Snape, the depictions of the Slytherins are quite one dimensional. I disagreed. You suggest that Draco is simply bad. Again, I disagree. We must try to seperate the behaviour from the child. A child is never simply bad. They have learned to behave in that manner through interaction with family, peers, the media etc. This process is referred to (in sociological discourse) as socialisation. Draco has, in my view, been socialised into being the sly, conniving bully we see in the texts through the parenting (or in my view lack of it) he has had, through peer interaction (Crabbe and Goyle) and through the culture and heritage he would have seen in childhood (being raised in a house where LV and prejudice would have been considered appropriate and proper). We don't see this in the text *explicitly*. But it is there. To suggest that Draco is *just* a bully is to, in my view, do the books an injustice. Shane. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From clicketykeys at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 16:13:49 2002 From: clicketykeys at yahoo.com (clicketykeys) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:13:49 -0000 Subject: accidental magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47473 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: > > Alina: > > > > Jazmyn, your point was that magic doesn't kick in until kids are 11 > years > > old. My point is it does. It may be induced by stress, yes, and > something in > > me seriously doubts that muggles can fly brooms. I think it takes > magic for > > a brook to actually start floating when you say "Up!" and for a > muggle it > > wouldn't do anything. That's arguable, I know. > > > > As for the child with the wand... No, mom shouldn't have been > frantic as if > > the kid was holding a gun. A gun can kill if the person holding it > is strong > > enough to squeeze the trigger. A wand can't do serious magic unless > the > > person holding it is a trained adult. > > > Indigo: > > I'm not so sure about that, Alina. If the kid could intentionally > blow up slugs at the World Cup with Daddy's wand, what's to say that > he couldn't do worse if he really set his will to it? > Clicketykeys: Because he hasn't been trained in the use of such spells? Magic is more than just intent; it's also training. Indigo: > Remember, kids don't have the same scruples and rules-related > knowledge and restrictions of their abilities as older kids/adults > do. > > A wand in the hand of a particularly gifted or particularly strong- > willed kid could potentially be very dangerous. > > Harry got Expecto Patronum as a third year, and Remus told him it > might be far too advanced for a student his age, because there were > full-fledged wizards who still hadn't mastered Expecto Patronum. > > Harry doesn't study as hard as Hermione does, but he mastered a spell > that a teacher said was likely going to be too hard for him to > master. And this is with time and history against him; he had grown > up magic-free for his 11 years, as opposed to some of his all-wizard > friends, like Ron and Neville. Clicketykeys: I would argue that Harry did /not/ master the Patronus. The only reason he was able to conjure one successfully at the end of the book was because of the unique circumstances created by the Time-Turner. In addition to that, he was being personally coached for months. Indigo: > > This, to me, implies that kid wizards have a great deal of untapped > potential that they only have to focus really hard to realize > magically. Clicketykeys: I think it's rather like programming a VCR: yes, a child can do it, but SOMEONE has to teach them how. > > Alina: > Remember Crouch!Moody told the class > > that if they all got their wands out and started screaming "Avadar > Kedavra" > > he wouldn't even get a nosebleed. > > Indigo: > I'm not so sure about this. > > Hermione was doing more advanced magic than the first years her first > year, because of her desire to be good at everything. > > See the Patronus mention above. Harry can do advanced magic far > beyond NEWT level in his third year. If that's possible for him, > it's possible for other wizards [though Harry is, in fairness, a > special case, due to the Voldemort-touch having given him some of the > big V's powers]. > > [Just as Lockhart was useless at most magic but had a facility for > Memory charms, by contrast]. Clicketykeys: I dunno. I think this merely shows that some wizards are more talented and/or more driven then others. > > Fake!Moody could've just been saying that as a precaution so that > none of the kids would/could try. I could just see the subject > coming up and Malfoy sneering at Harry and yelling "Avada Kedavra!" - > - even if it does require a full-trained wizard to be a kill-spell, > Draco's ill-will plus the exponentially growing malice Draco holds > for Harry might well have given the spell *some* potency, if not > lethal-level. > > This would've resulted in Ron yelling "Avada Kedavra" back at Draco, > and Crabbe and Goyle yelling it back at Ron, and it would've become > an Unforgivable Curses brawl for any kid in DADA class who wasn't too > afraid [Neville] or who wasn't disrespectful of the rules > [Hermione]. > > Practially and rationally speaking: I think Fake!Moody thought it > better to convince the fourth years that even attempting Avada > Kedavra would be a waste of time and effort. Clicketykeys: Oh, I'm not so sure about that. I kind of think it was a "watch and learn" lesson for any potential Death Eaters out there -- not enough instruction for any of them to master the spell, but enough that if they were paying attention, they might be able to benefit from practicing and concentrating. > --Indigo > [nursing a post-Feast Wars headache] *patpat* - C.K. clicketykeys From clicketykeys at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 16:23:24 2002 From: clicketykeys at yahoo.com (clicketykeys) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:23:24 -0000 Subject: Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47474 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Diane" wrote: > Just to lend my support to this. We unfortunately have fanfiction to > thank for the popular portrayal of Draco as the 'drop dead gorgeous > sex god hero marries or otherwise Ginny'. If you actually analyse the > portrayal in the books Draco is simply drawn as an unattractive and > bullying, snobbish, spoilt brat and does not appear to have any > hidden depths at all. As for joining the death eaters we shall no > doubt find out. > > Diane Mm. Well, I like that you've at least qualified the "no hidden depths" remark. However, from what we've seen so far, I think it's fair to say that Rowling does not write two-dimensional characters. As to what those depths may involve... that gets into speculation, there. From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 30 16:58:58 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:58:58 -0000 Subject: Leading Into Temptation (TBAY style) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47475 "Now, any questions? Since I've managed to get chalk all over my paws?" Grey Wolf said as he banged his paws together causing a thick cloud of chalk dust to fill the air. ::cough, cough:: "Yes, of course I do," Melody smiled. "The chalk please Grey." Handing the chalk over and giving the girl a rather appraising look, Grey returned to his chair and said, "Alright then." "First," Melody began, "I want to fix an error I made that I did not mean to imply. When I said: > "Yes, but by saying Dumbledore wants Harry to go after the stone to > see where his loyalties lie, you were speaking under the presumption > that: > (a) Voldie *would* get the stone > (b) Dumbledore knew this and wanted him too I meant that Dumbledore knew and wanted Voldie to get to the mirror room, not to the stone. I was *thinking* mirror room and *wrote* stone. Sorry about that. Dumbledore needed Voldemort in that room, so Harry could show that moral fiber. So the above *should* read. (a) Voldie *would* eventually get to the mirror (b) Dumbledore knew this and wanted him too That is why I said Dumbledore baited Voldemort. Bet you thought I completely lost my mind there with Voldie getting the stone, didn't you?" Melody smiled. "I was beginning to wonder if you had too much turkey for Thanksgiving," Grey laughed. "So, having fixed that little error on my part, I do want to move on," Melody said looking back at the circles and loops Grey had drawn about morality, life debts, and flaws. "You do realize, I completely agree with all this, right?" "I would hope so," said Grey leaning back in his chair. "Good, then I will erase it. I have no problem with saying that Dumbledore needs to know Harry's prerogative since so much is riding on him. T'would be foolish if he just assumed so much anyway," Melody said erasing the board. "Now, the reason I pulled you over here, was not to say 'hey, you are dallying near my patch'. I was just saying that within three interpretations of event, <> the idea of Dumbledore judging Harry's compass only works in two of them. <> Now, you say MD does not really adhere to the non-bait one, which I did not know that by the way," Melody said turning around and pointing the chalk at Grey and turning back and erased the 'non-bait'. "Since I did not know that, then that is why I dragged you back here. So you do believe Dumbledore baited Voldie into the room, but for different reasons that I expanded." said Melody. "Yes," Grey agreed. "If it was just Harry in the room, he would of just seen his parents, but with Voldemort there, Harry's greatest desire was for Voldie to *not* get the stone. Then, Dumbledore *knows* that Harry is good, and Voldie is kept from the stone and even removed from his host body." Melody looked down at her chalk. "You know that makes sense. I like it." "Thank you," Grey nodded. "Doesn't completely convince me, of course, but I like it," Melody said glancing up. "Few points then." "Shoot," Grey said. "One. you said: >The moral compass of Harry is checked when he decides to make a go >for it, not by passing the obstacles. The fact of being able to >overcome those obstacles is no proof of morality at all, really. Do you really think a moral decision was not made on Ron's part in the chess room? Do you not think a moral decision was not made by Harry when he left Ron there? Or how about when Hermione told Harry he is the one to go on and not her? It is purely from their convictions that they are making these decisions. Given that we are saying Dumbledore set up the obstacles to remove Ron and Hermione, then it seems to me that at those points a moral decision must be made. Maybe each obstacle was not set up especially for that moral point at that time, but it is implied that the decisions would be coming. Really, I think Dumbledore wanted to know what Harry's best friends' compasses were too. And Two. You said: >I have to point that Harry is more than an instrument in MD, Mel, and >you should know that. Harry is being trained, more than anyone else >in the school, and we are left to wander what has Dumbledore planned. >If he is just another student, he should receive the same education. >No, Dumbledore has surely something else in mind. You see, really, Harry's part is still vague. All his education so far does seem to cumulate around preparing Harry to make that moral decision and protect himself from the adversary that is * bent* to come after him. Can we really say Dumbledore is preparing Harry any further than this? I mean, all preparation really can just apply to Dumbledore needing this one decision and Harry's eventual giving of his blood," Melody asked. "Examples please," Grey requested with his paw doing that open palm, bended fingers beckoning motion that I can not remember the name of right now. "Ok, first if we are to say Dumbledore is preparing Harry especially then he has to do three things. <> (a)Prepare him morally: educate Harry of why all this is important and why he should be on the side of good. (b)Prepare him physically in defense: if Harry is going to be around bad people then he needs to be prepared. (c)Prepare him mentally: good old plain education of knowledge and facts Book 1. Basic training really. We have the mirror exercise (a: learn moral fiber to make decisions). Team work (c: they help Harry prepare himself for adversity). Obstacles to over come (b: any good army has that). Harry learns he has the ability to blister Quirrelmort (b: ingrain defense). Given picture book to become acquainted with parents so that later he can put a loving face with a cause (a&c). Oh, and his speed and sight is exercised (b: search and strategy). Book 2. Getting more specific. Dueling (b: if in fact Harry needs it when in bad people's presence when giving blood). Fawkes (a: loyalty proof). Basilisk of death (a: bravery against really big enemies). Sword and hat (c: the choice determines self lesson). Continuing education with speed and sight (b: Quidditch). Continue teakwork (c). Book 3. Game day now for life debt part. Dementor problem fixed (b: patronus if needed). Learn of father's friends and parents' death (c: motivation for decision to be made). Learns of Azkaban and punishments (c). Learns Dumbledore trust the person not their circumstances (a: Lupin). Quidditch training continues (b). Continue teamwork (c). Book 4. Has life debt now needs blood meaning bad guy is going to be in close proximity. Three curses (bit of b&c to protect himself from them if possible). WW multi-cultural love (a&c: future plans?). Trial pensive and what life was like with Voldemort around (a&c: rally against the cause of evil). Training for TriWiz (b&c: advantage of situation really). Task #1 (b: work to strengths think outside the box). Task #2 (a&c: loyalty, friendship, learn other cultures) Task #3 (b: another obstacle course). No quidditch but teamwork is shining (c). Now I am *sure* there are some I missed, but really, all this training does just culminate to Harry having the frame of mind and morals to want to be for Dumbledore's side, cause a life debt to be issued, and to be in the presence of Voldie to give blood." Melody stepped back and looked at the board covered in her writting. "Hmmm, though it does seem to imply that if the life debt is issued then it is Harry that is the one that would receive the benefits from it. Harry *must* have more to do with this then since it was so important that *he* be the one that gets the life debt. Did I just disprove my original intent?" Melody asked. "I think so," Grey said. "Hmmm, oh well. I'm not set in stone with it anyway. I will always ask 'Why Harry?' until it is proven to me why he is so important. >From what I can tell it is just because he is fortunate (or unfortunate depending on the view) to have this love protection, an evil overlord bent on pursuing him, and the ability to bring about this 'flawed potion' in a way that can remove the threat of Voldemort forever. That was what I was getting at before Grey. Not that after GoF, Harry is unimportant to the plot, but as to *why* he has been the focus so far. I have greatly deviated from your original point with Eileen, haven't I?" Melody asked. "Yes," Grey agreed, "But I think you feel a little better now getting all this out." "Yes, I do. It is Harry's basic earned life circumstances that make him special, and nothing else. Dumbledore need *him* because of this fact," Melody said more to herself than to Grey. "Now, where did I go wrong? I know you are dying to tell me," she smiled at the wolf. Melody From indigo at indigosky.net Sat Nov 30 18:06:29 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:06:29 -0000 Subject: Some Questions = Theories Wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47476 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "evenflow200214" wrote: > 1) How would Ron have explained to the rest of the Weasley's about > the disappearence of Scabbers and aquiring Pig? We can see that they > do not know that Sirius is innocent in GoF and Ron supposedly has no > money... How would he explain Pig? Not lying, but by being simplest. Scabbers was ill and unwell all the way from their Egypt trip. All Ron had to say was "I finally lost him." It's not a lie, as they did lose Pettigrew when he transformed. It's kind of off-color to let a person misunderstand due to ommission of the full story, but the full explanation would cause more trouble than it's worth. As for Pig? He's a gift from Harry. I'm sure Sirius wouldn't object to the ommission of ['s godfather] until his name is cleared. > 2)The Weasley's have a clock that tells each of them where each > member of the family is, home, work etc... Why then, during Harry > and Ron's adventures with the spiders, would the clock for Ron not > appear on "mortal peril"? Or when Ginny was in the Chamber or > talking to Tom wouldn't the Weasley's be straight over to > Hogwarts, banging down Dumbledore's door? Or when Ron was trapped > with Sirius? The clock doesn't know that he's innocent... > And he's chained to a werewolf. Why doesn't the clock tell the > Weasely's that they are in "mortal danger"? Oh, bunch of answers come to mind on this one. A) Fred and George possibly broke the 'mortal peril' setting for the clock because their pranks could have them in 'mortal peril' all the time, and the Weasleys are just used to it 'crying wolf' at this point, so they don't think anything of seeing a kid in 'mortal peril' if Fred and George are known to likewise be in the same location. And all the kids currently from the Burrow are at Hogwarts. B) I will second the emotion of the person who said that the Weasleys knew that their kids were in Hogwarts, and Hogwarts is still, Chamber of Secrets notwithstanding, considered one of the safest places in the Wizarding world. C) Some standard stuff in the Wizarding World can be considered life- threatening. Quidditch [both twins play, and Ron is a big fan] can put you in mortal peril several times during a game. This might be another reason the Weasleys don't necessarily automatically assume 'mortal peril' means _actual deadly danger_. D) Presumably during the adventure with the spiders, the clock didn't 'know' they were in mortal peril until Aragog said he was going to let his offspring eat the boys. And the car came along very quickly after that to rescue them. E) Ginny in the chamber? Maybe the chamber was scry-proof so that Ginny's condition in the chamber could not be magically 'read' that she was in mortal peril. F) Sirius didn't actually wish to hurt _Ron_. He only wished to hurt _Scabbers_. That Ron got hurt was something Sirius, in his presently starved and deranged condition, hadn't considered rationally. Remus was careful to tend magically to Ron's condition, too. G) Remus, thanks to his potion, which he'd gone so far as to explain to the Trio, rendered him harmless as a wolf. Ron didn't actually enter 'mortal peril' until they saw the full moon and it became recalled that Remus hadn't had his potion that day. And then when the transformation happened, Sirius protected Ron and ran Remus off, so the clock /might/ have gone to 'mortal peril' briefly, and then moved away again; which would have only been noticeable if anyone was actively watching the Weasley Clock at that particular set of minutes. And as someone else said, unless Molly and Arthur had reason to look at the clock, they wouldn't have seen it. At the time, they were unaware of Riddle's diary or that Ginny had it. They also were a pureblood wizarding family, so they had no reason to be concerned their kids were going to get attacked. And on top of that, Percy and the twins were supposed to be looking out for Ron and little Ginny. So there wasn't a whole lot of driving urge for them to look at the clock. H) I'm guessing Molly and Arthur don't have a pocketwatch version of the Weasley Clock either, or they'd have known there was a problem when Ron and Harry took The Car. > > 3) Where is the proof that Crouch attacked the Longbottoms? Sorry to reiterate it but it has not been proven that he is guilty... > 4) How was Sirius allowed a flying motorbike and why did Dumbledore > not react at Privet Drive? As far as he knows, Sirius is responsible yet he lets what Hagrid says about Sirius giving him the motorbike go over his head and doesn't even stop Hagrid when he says he wants to take the bike back to Sirius? Is this Dumbledore being lacklustre or something else? A) Anti-muggle charms like on the World Cup. Anyone getting too near the bike would find themselves thinking of other things. Or, alternatively, the bike has invisibility charms on it like The Flying Ford Anglia. B) As for why Dumbledore didn't react? It's possible Sirius' motorbike was acquired legally. We don't know anything about what Sirius did before he was framed for the multi-muggle murder. And when Hagrid had been given the bike, it was /before/ the multi-muggle murder, I believe. Hagrid didn't seem too upset that the bike belonged to "that murderer" at the time. Hagrid didn't get upset about who he got the bike from until Prisoner of Azkaban. Sirius said he wouldn't need the bike because he was going to go kill Pettigrew. If Sirius had already been believed to have committed the multi-muggle murder, Hagrid would've been doubly upset - at the loss of Harry's parents, and the murderer trying to take Harry, then offering Hagrid his bike. Hagrid said that he'd have killed Sirius on the spot had he known. So I'm presuming Dumbledore also wasn't aware that Sirius was about to get framed for the multi-muggle murder. >5) How did Sirius know where to find Peter after the Potter's > deaths? He seems to track him down a little too easily... Did > Peter plan that Sirius find him in that particular street? And was > it part of his and Voldemort's original plan, to pretend to blow > himself up, thus framing Sirius for three murders? In Prisoner of Azkaban, it says that Sirius, due to the unhappy thought of the knowledge that he was not guilty helped him keep his mind and his magic. In addition, time spent as a dog also allowed him to keep his sanity. So when Fudge came by to Azkaban, Sirius asked for a copy of the Wizarding Times, and that's where he saw the Pettigrew rat as Scabbers on Ron's shoulder in the photo showing their sweepstakes win that sent them to Egypt. As for Peter? I think he did plan to frame Sirius. I don't know if Voldemort was part of the plan. I rather doubt he was, because Voldemort would consider that beneath him. But Peter was jealous of the rest of the MWPP group, and Sirius even says that he'd never have amounted to anything as a wizard without Sirius, Remus and James having helped him along all the way through school. If Peter had not framed /somebody/ [and Sirius -was- most convenient], the Ministry of Magic would have been after not only Voldemort, but him. I think he just did it to save his own pusillanimous, craven, cowardly, rat tail. > > 6) How do the Paintings exist? Were they people who chose to become > paintings? Are the in the control of the artist that drew them? I think they're like the magical photographs. The paints used to paint the portraits are potion-imbued, like the potion-imbued developing chemicals. > > 7) Will Harry and Cho get together, in your opinions? IMO, no way. Not after Cedric. > 8) Why did Snape leave Voldemort and join him in the first place, in your opinions? I'm guessing Snape felt the wizarding world had nothing to offer him, but then Dumbledore did him some great kindness which changed his mind and his allegiance. What, I have no idea. > > 9)Why did Tom become Voldemort? Was there a trigger do you think? Mistreatment by his muggle family, and shame at being a muggle, it looks like. So far, anyway. > 10) Is Fudge merely corrupt, a good man at heart, or evil? And to > what degree? I think he's stupid and corrupt, but not genuinely evil. I think he's just so enamoured of his position and the power that it gets that he doesn't look too far into things. He doesn't want a hard road. He wants smooth sailing all the time and goes into denial at the mention of anything that could make his road not smooth. > I know I've made some points I spoke about earlier but just trying to get some more discussion on it going... I'm glad you did. The clock question was a great deal of fun to contemplate! --Indigo From indigo at indigosky.net Sat Nov 30 18:19:12 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:19:12 -0000 Subject: accidental magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47477 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "clicketykeys" wrote: > > > > Alina: > > > > > > Jazmyn, your point was that magic doesn't kick in until kids are 11 > > years > > > old. My point is it does. It may be induced by stress, yes, and > > something in > > > me seriously doubts that muggles can fly brooms. I think it takes > > magic for > > > a brook to actually start floating when you say "Up!" and for a > > muggle it > > > wouldn't do anything. That's arguable, I know. > > > > > > As for the child with the wand... No, mom shouldn't have been > > frantic as if > > > the kid was holding a gun. A gun can kill if the person holding it > > is strong > > > enough to squeeze the trigger. A wand can't do serious magic unless > > the > > > person holding it is a trained adult. > > > > > > Indigo: > > > > I'm not so sure about that, Alina. If the kid could intentionally > > blow up slugs at the World Cup with Daddy's wand, what's to say that > > he couldn't do worse if he really set his will to it? > > > > Clicketykeys: > > Because he hasn't been trained in the use of such spells? Magic is > more than just intent; it's also training. > Indigo: Training isn't intrinsically necessary for someone to do damage with a device. Jaz's loaded gun metaphor for one thing, and for another -- your average kid under 16 years of age behind the wheel of a car? If a kid has the will with a wand, the potential to do big damage exists, with or without the knowledge of how to do it as a specific spell involving magic words. > Indigo: > > > Remember, kids don't have the same scruples and rules-related > > knowledge and restrictions of their abilities as older kids/adults > > do. > > > > A wand in the hand of a particularly gifted or particularly strong- > > willed kid could potentially be very dangerous. > > > > Harry got Expecto Patronum as a third year, and Remus told him it > > might be far too advanced for a student his age, because there were > > full-fledged wizards who still hadn't mastered Expecto Patronum. > > > > Harry doesn't study as hard as Hermione does, but he mastered a spell > > that a teacher said was likely going to be too hard for him to > > master. And this is with time and history against him; he had grown > > up magic-free for his 11 years, as opposed to some of his all- wizard > > friends, like Ron and Neville. > > Clicketykeys: > > I would argue that Harry did /not/ master the Patronus. The only > reason he was able to conjure one successfully at the end of the book > was because of the unique circumstances created by the Time-Turner. In > addition to that, he was being personally coached for months. Indigo: Yes, but even Harry's feeblest first attempts, Remus said, were better than some full-fledged wizards could do. And even due to the Time-Turner circumstances, Harry -still- mastered the spell, because that still was a full-fledged Patronus. > > Indigo: > > > > This, to me, implies that kid wizards have a great deal of untapped > > potential that they only have to focus really hard to realize > > magically. > > Clicketykeys: > > I think it's rather like programming a VCR: yes, a child can do it, > but SOMEONE has to teach them how. Indigo: Or the kid is like me and I imagine many other HP4GU types ;) -- enterprising enough [or bored/mischievous enough] to either read the instructions, or experiment on his own until he gets it right through trial and error. > > > > Alina: > > Remember Crouch!Moody told the class > > > that if they all got their wands out and started screaming "Avadar > > Kedavra" > > > he wouldn't even get a nosebleed. > > > > Indigo: > > I'm not so sure about this. > > > > Hermione was doing more advanced magic than the first years her first > > year, because of her desire to be good at everything. > > > > See the Patronus mention above. Harry can do advanced magic far > > beyond NEWT level in his third year. If that's possible for him, > > it's possible for other wizards [though Harry is, in fairness, a > > special case, due to the Voldemort-touch having given him some of the > > big V's powers]. > > > > [Just as Lockhart was useless at most magic but had a facility for > > Memory charms, by contrast]. > > Clicketykeys: > > I dunno. I think this merely shows that some wizards are more talented > and/or more driven then others. > > >>Indigo: > > Fake!Moody could've just been saying that as a precaution so that > > none of the kids would/could try. I could just see the subject > > coming up and Malfoy sneering at Harry and yelling "Avada Kedavra!" - > > - even if it does require a full-trained wizard to be a kill- spell, > > Draco's ill-will plus the exponentially growing malice Draco holds > > for Harry might well have given the spell *some* potency, if not > > lethal-level. > > > > This would've resulted in Ron yelling "Avada Kedavra" back at Draco, > > and Crabbe and Goyle yelling it back at Ron, and it would've become > > an Unforgivable Curses brawl for any kid in DADA class who wasn't too > > afraid [Neville] or who wasn't disrespectful of the rules > > [Hermione]. > > > > Practially and rationally speaking: I think Fake!Moody thought it > > better to convince the fourth years that even attempting Avada > > Kedavra would be a waste of time and effort. > > Clicketykeys: > > Oh, I'm not so sure about that. I kind of think it was a "watch and > learn" lesson for any potential Death Eaters out there -- not enough > instruction for any of them to master the spell, but enough that if > they were paying attention, they might be able to benefit from > practicing and concentrating. Indigo: Excellent point I had not taken into consideration. > > > --Indigo > > [nursing a post-Feast Wars headache] > > *patpat* > > - C.K. > clicketykeys *coo* Such a nice Clicketykeys. --Indigo From indigo at indigosky.net Sat Nov 30 18:34:58 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:34:58 -0000 Subject: Revisitng The Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47478 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "vincentjh" wrote: [snip] > > If Ron's memory can be trusted, underage wizards are allowed to use > magic in emergency. The situation during the QWC should qualify as > such. > > "...underage wizards are allowed to use magic if it's a real > emergency, section nineteen or something of the Restriction of > Thingy" (CoS, US paperback p. 69) > > BTW, isn't it a bit unusual for a 12-year-old to memorize something > like that? This isn't the only time Ron recalls a decree or a case, > but IIRC he's not particularly good at history. Odd. > > VJH His dad works Ministry of Magic. Perhaps all the Weasley kids were made to memorise anything that related to them that could get Arthur in trouble if they didn't follow it? --Indigo From myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 18:35:54 2002 From: myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com (Moonstruck) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 10:35:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Draco: Dudley and Snape Message-ID: <20021130183554.42081.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47479 Some thoughts on Draco: I've been going through the books again and reviewing Draco's scenes, how he interacts with the other characters and what types of character nuances he displays. The thing that really sparked this sudden curiosity was a discussion I had with Heidi Tandy. She brought something to my attention that I had never considered before: In GoF, when the Death Eaters conjure the Dark Mark and Harry, Ron, and Hermione run into Draco while fleeing to the Forest, Draco is fairly hateful to Hermione, but he nonetheless keeps urging her to get away from the DE chaos. And Heidi's right. Draco's quite nasty to her, but for someone who supposedly hates her and hates Mudbloods, it's surprising that he's *not* goading her into the center of the danger. Instead, he's warning her (granted, in a verrrrry roundabout manner) against it. That's not to say I believe the canon supports the notion of Draco being interested in or having a relationship with Hermione, because that's stretching things a bit. But this different perspective, paired with Draco's depiction in the CoS movie, has prompted some questions about Draco. As I've been going through the text, I've found Draco compared to two other characters -- Dudley and Snape -- and I suspect both are or will prove to be dead-on estimations of Draco's character. I suppose what I'm wondering if, in a very loose, non-literal manner, he has begun the series as a Dudley-type of child, but will later undergo a re-examination of his beliefs and ethics, as I suspect Snape did at some point during Voldemort's original reign. Draco's similarities with Dudley are very wrapped up in the nature of their relationships with their parents and the kind of values they've passed on to their children. I think both the Malfoys and the Dursleys do their children a great disservice by raising them as spoiled, superior children. Think about all the presents the Dursleys shower upon Dudley, all of Petunia's little baby pet names for him, how they go out of their way to arrange advantages for him and shelter (stifle) him through any remotely unpleasant experience. In one sense, you could say that all of this exemplifies how deeply the Dursleys love Dudley. I, however, see it as bordering on child abuse. By GoF, Dudley has ballooned so massively from his parents' overindulgence, it's actually threatening his health. Even a note from his teacher won't dissuade Petunia from believing Dudley should be able to have whatever he wants. Additionally, Vernon ensures Dudley's acceptance to the private school (which denotes a level of social superiority) he attended as a child. One imagines Vernon is planning to set Dudley up in a cushy job after he graduates. Petunia and Vernon are insecure, judgmental, nosy people who bully those of smaller stature (both physically and socially) in order to make themselves feel powerful and important. Dudley, naturally, has inherited this behavior, and we see it in his treatment of Harry. I'm sure the parallels between the Dursleys and the Malfoys are apparent in the above paragraph and since I have begun to consider the similarities between the two families, they very strikingly mirror each other. Muggle on one side, Wizard on the other. I imagine this is JKR's way of pointing out the absurdity of the Malfoys hating Muggles like the Dursleys, and vise versa, when they are certainly made from the same cloth. Ignorance, cruelty, superficiality exist in every culture. I have absolutely no specific idea of what will happen to Dudley, but one thing is certain for both him and Draco. At some point both are going to have to face the world without the intervention of their families and both will fall on their faces. Neither the Malfoys nor the Dursleys have equipped their sons with the skills to function independently, to rely on their intelligence and skills rather than their name to get ahead in life, to think for themselves. The final example is incredibly apparent with Draco. At this point, from what we've see of his behavior, Draco is basically Lucius' puppet, his mini-mouthpiece at Hogwarts. But for all his posturing and bullying, Draco is completely dependent on others for his gumption. He's cowardly -- he ran away from Voldy in the Forbidden Forest in PS/SS and, as I was rereading some of the passages of Draco's interaction with the trio, it was obvious that he's full of sarcasm and superiority when he's at a safe distance, but the minute he's directly confronted he said or does nothing. He simply walks away. He does this to Harry repeatedly. He's equally as low-key when his cohorts aren't around to cheer him on. With Draco, it's a "never mind the man behind the curtain" situation. And why is he like this? Is he simply just a rotten little bastard? Yes, but that's not the only reason. Why does Draco spew such hatred toward the trio? Because he'd like to be part of it. He was perfectly friendly, albeit stuck-up, when he first met Harry at Madame Malkins. In fact, even after he discovers Harry's identity, he offers his hand in friendship. Deep down, I imagine there are aspects of Harry, Ron, and Hermione that he secretly admires/likes and I'm almost positive that he envies the loyalty, respect, acceptance, and unconditional love the trio give to one other. However, Draco's problem is his presentation. Harry chose to be Ron's friend because Ron was friendly, accepting, and good-natured. Harry chose not to be friends with Draco because, while Draco was "friendly," he was also judgmental and mean, and the thing he promised to give Harry as a friend was power, position, and dominion over the other students. Unfortunately, that's the only way Draco knows how to make friends. His friends "like" him because he's rich, his family's important, he gets lots of expensive gifts, etc. None of Draco's friends are with him for the quality of his character or great personality. And that's really sad. I was rereading the mudblood scene in PS/SS and I found it newly interesting. We don't know of Draco throwing around the word Mudblood until that specific point in the series. In other words, he doesn't go around bullying mudbloods or shouting slurs at them. He only invokes it when Hermione points out that he got on the Quidditch team simply because his father bought them all Nimbus-2001s, not because he has great flying skills. This really seems to strike a chord with him, and he pulls out the most hurtful thing he can think of to hurl back at her. Draco didn't call Hermione a Mudblood because he's such an anti-Muggle fanatic, but because she either hurt his feelings, or struck his insecurities, maybe both. It probably doesn't help, either, that Hermione is the one student he can't outdo. She's always better than him. Whatever it is about Hermione that caused him to behave so atrociously, his reaction betrays the high level of insecurity and sensitivity Draco possesses. I agree, to some extent, that Draco looks up to his father, but I think Draco has many conflicted, complex emotions regarding his father. I'm convinced this is only going to worsen as he gets older and, one hopes, wiser. You can attribute part of Draco's behavior to admiration for his father, but I think most of it is a desperate attempt to secure his father's love and acceptance. I really don't get the impression that Lucius feels any real love toward Draco. He buys Draco all those expensive things not because he cares for Draco and wants him to have the best, but because Draco is a representative of both Lucius and the Malfoy name. Thus, Draco must exude old money and class to the world. Again, Draco's not his son, he's his advertisement. Now that Voldemort has returned to his full glory, things are only going to get worse. All of the kids at Hogwarts are going to have to grow up very quickly, which will put Draco at a distinct disadvantage. And, honestly, who's going to place first on Lucius' list of priorities: his son or his position with the Death Eaters? Once things really heat up, Daddy dearest isn't going to give a fig about Draco's safety or well-being. In fact, I believe he'd even sacrifice Draco for Voldy and the Death Eaters. That fact, combined with Draco's (hopeful) eventual realization that his parents' values and parenting practices harmed him far more than they helped him, is, I believe, going to create in Draco a great deal of resentment and hatred toward his father. I also think it will force him to reevaluate his own values and beliefs -- what of his parents' or, more likely, father's rhetoric does he actually agree with? It's my great hope that at this point, we'll begin to see Draco's personality turn more toward Snape. I think he'll turn against his father and the Death Eaters. Whether he'll end up joining forces with the trio or contribute in some way to Dumbledore's crusade, I'm not sure. I've heard speculation that Harry will end up saving Draco's life, which would put Draco in debt to Harry. It's a bit too James and Snape for my taste, but JKR does love her parallels. Nonetheless, I'm convinced Lucius is going to be the influence that drives Draco to a crisis of identity/morality. And I'm fairly confident that Draco will be reformed in some way before the series ends. -Jessica :) ===== "How many Lupins does it take to change a light bulb? Who needs light when you've got Lupin?!" - Miss_Tori http://www.livejournal.com/users/moonstruck4rjl/ Nimbus_2003-An International Harry Potter Symposium: http://www.hp2003.org/index.html __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From indigo at indigosky.net Sat Nov 30 18:59:12 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:59:12 -0000 Subject: Filch (was: Hagrid's Umbrella) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47480 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "clicketykeys" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fer Mendoza" wrote: > > > > I agree with Dianne. I don't think a squib cannot be a accepted in > > any wizarding school. It's as good as accepting muggles into > > Hogwarts. > > ok, I presume you mean "I don't think a squib can be accepted." > > > > When Filch was practicing Quick Spell did he use a wand? This is not > > supported by canon but I'm pretty sure he needed to have a wand for > > him to be able to learn Quick Spell. Now this brings me back to one > > of my original questions. Can a person not enrolled in any wizarding > > school own (or buy) a wand? > > Sure, why not? A wand is merely a tool. > > > > ...If so, what was the point of breaking Hagrid's wand when he can > > just buy another one? Was it jus a symbolic thing? > > > > Heck no. I'm pretty sure Hagrid was a special case - he didn't get his > wand broken "because" he was expelled. He got his wand broken (and was > expelled) because he'd (supposedly) opened the chamber of secrets and > (definitely, with Aragog) subjected the other students of the school > to danger. > > To clarify: I think wand-breaking is a severe punishment in and of > itself, and may happen to other wizards who aren't in school > anymore... sort of a "bad, but not quite as bad as Azkaban" type of > punishment. > Agreed. Not only was it a wand-breaking, but Ollivander actually glowered at Hagrid to make sure that Hagrid wasn't still /using/ the pieces of the broken wand ["of course not, Mister Ollivander."] , and clearly he hadn't sold Hagrid another. So it was not just symbolic, but it got spread throughout the wizarding world. > Personally, I think that was taking it a bit far in Hagrid's case, > even when they thought he was the one responsible for Myrtle's death. > To tell somebody that they can't do magic after it's been a part of > their life forever... it'd be sort of like someone taking away our > ability to read and write. It's severely limiting, and there's a huge > stigma attached. Plus, with Hagrid, it's not like he can just "go > Muggle." > > - C.K. > clicketykeys Agreed again! And now that Hagrid's been proven innocent, all he's gotten by way of restitution for being falsely accused is that he's got a job as a teacher at Hogwarts in /addition/ to the Gamekeeper job. The Ministry of Magic seems, ironically, to have a witch hunt mentality. Sirius was convicted without proof that he was the guilty party, but on circumstantial evidence. In fairness, /yes/, Aragog was a far more solid bit of evidence than the multi-muggle murder. Which brings to mind the question -- why didn't somebody find out what was in Sirius' wand from Ollivander, and do a priori incantatem to see what Sirius' last spell was? That would've been proof. And I'm almost certain, given his profound loyalty to Gryffindor, that Hagrid was a Gryffindor himself in his youth. It seems unlikely tto me that the Heir of Slytherin would've been someone who was not full-wizard-blood, and -not- a Slytherin. Another thing not taken into consideration. Hopefully Harry will grow up and reform the Ministry of Magic some so that all these innocents stop getting blamed for things they didn't do! --Indigo [faithfully devoted to Hagrid and Sirius] From indigo at indigosky.net Sat Nov 30 19:08:19 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 19:08:19 -0000 Subject: Harry's vault key In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47481 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sunnylove0 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 11/29/2002 11:45:11 PM Mountain Standard Time, > jasonjacqui at y... writes: > > > > I am not saying that it definately came from some where else, I am > > just trying to figure out how Hagrid or Dumbledore got the key in the > > first place. It doesn't sit well with me. Even if Dumbledore was > > there that night, Lily and James had no reason to think that their > > lives were about to end, therefor they would have no reason to give > > Dumbledore their vault key. [snip bit about the Invisibility Cloak and how Dumbledore may have got the key and cloak] You know on our muggle non-online lives we fill out forms that say "Person to contact in case of emergency"? Maybe there's such a spell for important stuff. So that when James and Lily died, their important belongings apparated to a previously- agreed upon location where Dumbledore could then take ownership of said items for safekeeping. --Indigo [You know, this is a very relaxing way to spend a Saturday] From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 19:17:09 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 19:17:09 -0000 Subject: Draco: [was Dudley and] Snape In-Reply-To: <20021130183554.42081.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47482 Moonstruck wrote: > It's my great hope that at this point, we'll begin to > see Draco's personality turn more toward Snape. I'm very interested to know what will happen to the relationship, such as it is, between Draco and Snape in the next book or two. At the close of GF, Draco is getting more entrenched in pro-V enthusiasm (though I agree with you that he's headed for a crisis), while Snape's anti-V heroism is becoming more evident. When will Draco twig to the fact that Snape and Daddy are not on the same side? How will he deal with it? For that matter, how public will Snape be about what side he's on? The Trio will keep their mouths shut, the "old crowd" will obviously do the same, and the "war" may remain an under-the-surface struggle for a long time. Fudge knows that Snape is at best a bit too slavish a follower of Dumbledore's crackpot ideas, but Fudge has a third role in the conflict, neither Dumbledore's side nor Voldemort's (unless he turns out to be Ever So Evil); as things stand now, at least, he's not about to call Voldemort on the Floo and say "By the way, that Snape is worse than ever--recommend you dispose of him." > "How many Lupins does it take to change a light bulb? > Who needs light when you've got Lupin?!" - Miss_Tori Indeed. Amy Z From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 19:26:16 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 19:26:16 -0000 Subject: How did Fudge know? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47483 Andi wrote: > The only person > who knows about the whole thing is Harry, and we know he hasn't told > Fudge anything. So, how did Fudge find out? The only theory I can > come up with is that he is indeed evil and that he was the one who > ordered the Dementors to kiss Harry in the first place. Any other > ideas? Or am I missing something obvious? > > This is my first post, by the way, so I hope I did everything > right. :) Not only did you do everything right, you posed a question I don't remember anyone posing in my 2 years here, though I could well have missed it during the recent period in which I was Having a Life. I suppose one possibility is that the Dementors told him. They just might--they seem such conscienceless creatures, one can imagine them calmly reporting to Fudge their evening activities as if there were nothing at all wrong with them. "Ate a few squirrels . . . swung by the Three Broomsticks and killed business right off for the night . . . found Sirius Black . . . nearly got to suck the soul out of three kids and two adults and were robbed . . . Fudge, if you don't crack down on amateur Patronus production around here, we're going to quit this gig." (Of course, how they communicate is another open question, but they must do it *somehow.* Dumbledore knows how to talk to them.) Seriously, Fudge is just a fool if he thinks the Dementors are under his control. They already came swarming into a school Quidditch match because they got hungry. Clearly, if the MOM has spelled out to them that they must guard the gates and not go roving around attacking anyone (aside from Black of course), they have been flouting that order, and yet he still thinks they are servants in his power. Amy Z who gets the distinct feeling that the Dementors are going to get hungry for some chocolate walnut Fudge before the series is done From jodel at aol.com Sat Nov 30 19:39:08 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:39:08 EST Subject: Draco Message-ID: <18.29113fe5.2b1a6ddc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47484 Chris States; << I see Draco as simply a bully and malicious troublecauser. We have no hint that he has a deeper character than simple racism (mudbloods) and hiding behind his two companions. He is so desperate for success and fame that he uses his father's money to buy his way on to the quiddich team and is spiteful enough to try and get Hagrid fired for his own mistake. >> Exactly. Draco Malfoy is the everyday, petty niusance which keeps Harry and the reader firmly tied into the "school story" which the series is built around. If there were no Draco, we would be off fixating on the threat of Lord Voldemort outside the walls and the heinious plot du jure. Draco is the series's gadfly, but we can't dismiss him because he IS connected to what is going on outside and you can't tell whether he is acting on outside information related to this year's murder plot or whether he is merely adding to the general unpleasantness. >>While it is commonly supposed that Draco will join the DEs, I don't think that will happen, although for a surprising reason. I can't see LV wanting him too much, what does he bring to the DEs?<< More to the point, given the set-up for "The World According to Lucius Malfoy" I can't see Lucius risking the extinction of the Malfoy name and honors by permitting anything of the sort until the sucession is secured. So, no Dark Mark for Draco until there is another Malfoy heir slumbering innocently in the nursery. And I DON'T get the impression that the Malfoys go in for early marriages. -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Sat Nov 30 19:39:14 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:39:14 EST Subject: Leading into Temptation/the Light that Failed Message-ID: <34.310deb26.2b1a6de2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47485 Melody gives us a very nice extrapolation of the "Bait" or "Non-Bait" theories. May I add a couple of possible fine-tunings. The Gringotts connection is highly sound. I am convinced that the fact that the Stone had been sitting in a Gringotts vault had some significance. But what we do not have any information on is how long the Stone had been there, or whether it had been placed there by Dumbledore or by Flamel. I suggest that after some 600 years, Nicholas Flamel's worldly needs and his financial arrangements are such that he no longer needs the Stone to produce gold. Further, that even after the Stone has been in custody at Hogwarts for the entire school year, the fact that the Flamel's still have enough of the Elixer of Life remaining to allow them to put their affairs in order, suggests that Flamel hasn't needed to keep the stone in his own possession for decades, if not centuries, and that he quite possibly put it into a Gringotts vault for safekeeping a century or more ago, only getting it out ev ery couple of years when he needs to make a new batch of Elixer. In this case, a secondary possibility presents itself, which offers a solution to one of the nagging questions that I have had about the plot, which is, namely; "How did Dumbledore know that there was going to be an attempt on the Stone THIS year, rather than any other?" This possibility supposes that Voldemort's probable location has been known for some time. Not comfirmed, perhaps, but strongly suspected, largely through circumstantal evidence suggested by the behavior of the creatures, particularly the snakes, in the subject district. Obviously, in this case the area is monitored, and Dumbledore is one of the people who gets reports on who and what has been sighted there. And consequently, he recieved a report, at some time earlier in the year, that Quirrell had shown up and investigated the area. He may also have been informed that Quirrell seemed bady shaken by whatever he had found there. In which case, he, and those of his staff that he let in on the secret, already knew that Quirrell had been gotten to, but did not know by what method, or whether Quirell was a willing participant. For that matter, they were not absolutely certain that what had gotten Quirrell was even Voldemort, or whether it might be some other Dark Creature. They knew when Quirrell returned to England, and Dumbledore sent Hagrid (who had NOT been let in on this particuar secret) to collect the Stone as a precaution. If there had been no attempt on the Gringotts vault, I imagine that the Stone would have been returned to it before the school year started, since whatever had gotten hold of Quirrell would probably not be Voldemort, and would have no particular intrest in the Stone. Well, the attempt on the vault settled that question. Quirrell was under Voldemort's control. Now the question becomes whether the elaborate trap that Dumbledore set up was intended primarily to capture and somehow contain VaporMort (who Dumbledore knew could not be killed while he was in that form) or to isolate and somehow attempt to rescue Quirrell. No one knew, after all, just how Quirrell was being controlled, and whether there was some safe method of extricating him from his situation. All they could count on was that Quirrell was unlikely to be able to give them any assistance in either matter. And they could not let Quirrell know what they were up to, either. But I really do believe that the possibility of an attempt to trap Voldemort and rescue Quirrell MUST be added to the equation. Quirrell did not have a history of being a Dark Arts *supporter* nor can he be the first Dark Arts defender to have gone up against something that was too big for him to handle, the defenders of the light had a moral duty to try to rescue him. In which case the repeated orders for the kids to stay out of it, become even more understandable. This was a very delicate situation which needed no meddling on the part of 11-year-olds. The Mirror of Erised sequence during the winter break was the single exceptio n. Dumbledore clearly had the Mirror removed from its place in the maze and placed in the room down the hall from the library and gave Harry his father's cloak at exactly that point in time for a reason. I strongly suspect that he also alerted Snape and Filtch to be on watch for a disturbance in the Library's vicinity, and saw to it that the door to the room was left ajar specifically to make sure that Harry would find the Mirror. Dumbledore did not know, and cannot see what it is that Harry sees in the Mirror. (Ahthough Harry's taking to the images tipped him off.) But he was betting that it would draw him back again. When it does, he explains to Harry, how the Mirror works. After which he returned the Mirror to its place at the heart of the labrynth. Now what was the purpose of this? I do NOT believe that he intended for Harry to meddle with his trap. So long as there was any chance of rescuing Quirrell, the labrynth of tests was no place for medlesome children. the situation was too precarious. (And the longer Quirrell put off entering the labrynth, the less likely it would have seemed that they would be able to save him.) I think, (and I've mentioned this before) that Dumbledore let Harry in on the secret of how the Mirror of Erised worked because he intended for Harry to be the one to retrieve the Stone *after* the shouting was over and the danger was past. He suspected (by that time possibly knew for certain) that Harry had connected the dots between his trip to Diagon Alley with Hagrid and the attempt on the Gringotts vault. The Daily Prophet article had even been so indescrete as to print the vault number. He could not stop the kids from trying to find what information was to be found in the Library (in the non-restricted areas, anyway) and the information regarding Nicholas Flamel and the Philosopher's Stone was certainly there for them to find. He probably suspected that between the three of them (and Hagrid's loose lips) they probably WOULD work that out by the end of the year. And that did not matter so long as they stayed AWAY from the labrynth. But after the opperation was over, Dumbledore could see that they were going to need to get the Stone out of the Mirror in order to destroy it. And I think Dumbledore suspected that he would be unable to see anything in the Mirror by that time other than the image of himself destroying the Stone. And suspected that the rest of the staff would probably be in much the same situation. A child, on the other hand could be set a puzzle and when asked; "Can YOU find it?" might actually be able to concentrate on wanting to FIND it. And after Quirrell tried to throw him off his broomstick, the boy was owed some opportuntiy to be a hero on his own merit. Retrieving the Stone was a safe, appropriate adventure for a child to be entrusted with. And it all went awry. Voldemort did not take the bait. By the time he had Quirrell killing unicorns to survive, Dumbledore knew that it was too late to save Quirrell. The task was now to close down the operation with the least amount of collateral damage. Dumbledore asked Fudge to send him the summoning letter from the Ministry in order to give Quirrell a clear shot at the Stone. He antcipated that by the time he made his round trip to and from London, QuirrelMort would be stuck at the Mirror and they could go in and collect him as carefully as possible. Instead he gets back to encounter a panicy Granger and Weasly who tell him that Harry has followed Quirrell into the labrynth. He reaches the chamber of the Mirror in time to save Harry's life, but Quirrell was lost and they did not trap Voldemort. On the other hand, Harry did collect the Stone, so that may be safely destroyed and without it, there will be nothing to tempt Voldemort to return for it, so at least they should not need to worry about him for a while. (Harry and his friends slipped in under Dumbledore's radar this time round. I suspect that that is not the only thing that did. I am firmly of the oppinion that the plot fo deploy the Riddle diary was intiated about when the first unicorn was killed. I do NOT think that this timing was a coincidence. After all. If Hogwarts is on the Floo network, all it would have taken would have been for QuirrellMort to take off his turban and sit with his back to the fire.) The awarding of House points to rule breakers was a bit tactless, given that Slytherin appears to have honestly earned the house Cup that year. However snce the rule breakers' achievments were both remarkable and about the only thing that the school is left wth to feel reasonably good about after the debacle of the Stone, it is at least understandable. -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Sat Nov 30 19:39:10 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:39:10 EST Subject: Harry's Vault key Message-ID: <6.3690b01.2b1a6dde@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47486 Jacqui writes: << I am curious how Hagrid came to posses Harry's Gringott's vault key. Did he get it from Dumbledore? If he did, how did Dumbledore get it? He wasn't even at the Potter's on the night that Lily and James died. >> But he facilitated their disapearance, and probably had power of attourney while they were in hiding. Which implied assess to their funds in order to pay their bills, safekeeping for valuable artifacts and probably the custody of their private papers. I'm mystified byu the question. Isn't that much reasonably obvious? -JOdel From kaityf at jorsm.com Sat Nov 30 20:18:01 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:18:01 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and the Potters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021130103620.01280838@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47487 Jack wrote: >In GoF, Voldie summons the Deatheaters, and Lucius is there. He >certainly must notice that Snape isn't. Voldie states that of the >ones that are missing, two are at Hogwarts: one is coward (Kakarov); >one is lost forever and must die (Snape). If Snape was maintaining a >front for Lucius, I wonder what Lucius is thinking now? Hard to say, but if the cover story is that he's actually keeping an eye out on Dumbledore, Lucius would think that's what he's doing -- keeping an eye on what's going on at Hogwart's with Dumbledore and his side. He could even be thinking that it was a good thing that Snape decided to stay undercover. >I wonder if Snape will say he didn't respond when summoned because he >needed to maintain a front for D'dore. Voldie was co-occupying >Quirrel in SS, so that excuse won't fly. I wonder, though. Someone earlier mentioned something to the effect that Snape could say that he was just testing Quirrel. All we know is that Snape told Quirrell he'd have another talk with him later after he's had time to decide where his loyalties lie. That was ambiguous enough for Harry to think that Snape meant Quirrell needed to think about being on Voldemort's side. We don't know what else Snape said or how he said it, so it's very possible that Snape was careful with his wording throughout the conversations he had with Quirrell. A bigger problem I see is that Quirrellmort knew that Snape saved Harry when Quirrell tried to kill him. I haven't figured out how to get beyond that one yet! >But Lucius doesn't know >that, does he? He just knows that Voldie has condemned him. But he has to know that Snape saved Harry from Quirrell's curse on the broom, right? conshydot at email.com replied to Jack: >We always assume that Kakarov is the coward and Snape is lost >forever, But what if it's the other way around? Snape's mision may be >to go begging back to Voldy and get himself ingratiated into the >inner circle. Snape could then insinuate himself as as double agent- >pretend that he is spying at Hogwarts for Voldy and but really aiding >D*dore. I've wondered that myself, but I'm not sure Voldie would take someone back just because they came begging. I think Snape would have to have a better story than that and I do think that he very likely could say he had been keeping an eye on Dumbledore and the rest of the good crowd to be better prepared to destroy them when the time was ripe. He could even provide some morsels of (useless or wrong) information. Voldemort could certainly accept that. He seems to accept those who can do something for him, Pettigrew, for example. It seems to me that he would be very happy blowing that sniveling little rat away, but he knows that he is/was useful. I can imagine he'd do the same with Snape, providing Snape could give at least the appearance of doing something useful. Cassie wrote: >Here's a wild thought. What if Snape was there? Remember, there were some >DE's that Voldemort passed. That's an interesting thought. But is the timing right? At what point does Snape leave the presence of Dumbledore who tells him he knows what must be done? That's at the very end, right? When Dumbledore is trying to persuade Fudge that Voldemort is indeed back, wouldn't Snape just pipe up and say he knows because he's just been at the circle? Or is he keeping his double agent status a secret from Fudge? What happened to the inner circle once Harry takes the portkey back to Hogwarts? Did they all suddenly disperse, making it possible for Snape to get back to Hogwarts in time to talk to Fudge? Cassie again: >"Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's eyes flew >back to fudge." (GoF, ch 36) > >"This eyes lingered on Harry for a moment as Harry watched him. His >expression was difficult to read. He looked as sour and unpleasant as ever. >Harry continued to watch him, long after Snape had looked away." (GoF, ch 37) > >A bunch of people speculated that the latter might indicate Snape had a new >found respect for Harry. I wonder about that. I can't imagine why he'd respect Harry now if he didn't before. He'd gotten the best of Voldemort on more than one occasion. Where would the new respect come from this time? I wonder if this look has something more to do with Fudge and Snape. What does Fudge know about Snape? What does Snape know about Fudge? Do we know for a fact that Fudge was never a DE or a supporter of Voldemort? I've wondered about this more than once. There is so much evidence that Fudge wants to protect Harry, but does that mean he was never a supporter of Voldemort, even if he wasn't in the inner circle of Death Eaters? Of course, I've wondered that about Ludo Bagman as well. In fact, sometimes I wonder if he's not the character that Voldemort refers to as the true supporter at Hogwarts. But then I've considered just about everyone in that role! >If Dumbledore had told him later on what Harry had >said I could imagine Snape thinking: > >"Great...the little brat lucks out and survives *another* attack by Lord >Voldemort." Except that I do think Snape is really on the good side now and even though he clearly dislikes Harry, I don't think he'd be disappointed at Harry's survival. >My theory was that it might not be respect, but guilt. He had worked so hard >to protect Harry at school (in his own way of course..) and here he had to >stand and watch as he was tortured and almost killed. On the surface, that does make sense. But it's the timing that bothers me. Carol From kaityf at jorsm.com Sat Nov 30 20:40:32 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:40:32 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Vault key In-Reply-To: <6.3690b01.2b1a6dde@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021130143326.0306bb98@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47488 Jacqui wrote: ><< I am curious how Hagrid came to posses Harry's Gringott's vault key. Did >he get it from Dumbledore? If he did, how did Dumbledore get it? He wasn't >even at the Potter's on the night that Lily and James died. >> JOdel answered: >But he facilitated their disapearance, and probably had power of attourney >while they were in hiding. Which implied assess to their funds in order to >pay their bills, safekeeping for valuable artifacts and probably the custody >of their private papers. That really makes a lot of sense. After all, we know that James left his invisibility cloak in Dumbledore's safekeeping. Dumbledore didn't just find it. He clearly states that James left it with him. It strikes me as quite likely that James left more than that invisibility cloak with him. We know that the Potters were aware they were in danger and so went into hiding. (That makes me wonder something else. If Voldemort was after the Potters, James and Harry in particular, wouldn't it have been safer to have two different secret keepers and have Harry someplace else with someone else watching over him? Of course, as a parent I wouldn't have wanted to leave my son elsewhere; it was just a thought.) If the Potters knew they were at risk, wouldn't they provide for some contingencies -- like their demise? If they did, did they fully expect Harry to survive even if they didn't? What was the point of leaving anything with Dumbledore for safekeeping? Indigo wrote: >Maybe there's such a spell for important stuff. So that when James >and Lily died, their important belongings apparated to a previously- >agreed upon location where Dumbledore could then take ownership of >said items for safekeeping. That's a good thought. I still have to wonder, though, what they were kept safe for? Harry was with Lily and James. There are no other relatives. What would Dumbledore, or anyone else, be keeping all the stuff safe for? Carol From mi_shell16 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 30 20:46:36 2002 From: mi_shell16 at hotmail.com (theresnothingtoit) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:46:36 -0000 Subject: Vampires Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47489 There has been alot of discussion on the board recently about whether or not Severus Snape is a vampire. I would first like to say that I hope he is not (yet). Firstly because I feel he is too young to be a Vampire. He would have had to be bitten between leaving school and present time and I feel the first Vampire we meet in the Potterverse should be very old, say 200- 300 years old. Second of all it is just too obvious for JKR to use as a plot device as she has already set up all the imagry (mind you it may just be a double bulff). Not that I am saying Vampires do not exist. They most definatly do as they have several mentions in all four books, one is even suggested for the DADA position. It is curious to note also that Vampires do not make it into the Bogart scene as a worst fear. The most interesting point that the books make about them comes from Percy Weasly in the Chapter Mahyem at the Minestry, GoF "[Rita Skeeter] writes we should be stamping out Vampires! If it wasn't *specifically* stated in Guidelines for the treatment of non-wizard part-human..." At this point Bill tells him to give it a rest but I have a few questions about this point: 1. Vampires clearly have some leagal rights and wizards cannot just go about killing them off. Why not? 2. What about vampires who were wizard as mortals? Do such vampires exist as I see vampires being very picky about who they let suck their own blood. Would wizard part-humans have greater powers? I can see Vampires also being a major Voldemort plot line, perhaps a potion using their blood as it is mostly agreed that Vampires are imortal. Perhaps Voldemort has already been bitten and tasted Vampire blood - but the Vampire did not suck enough of Voldemorts blood for the transition to be complete - since he already has the stereo-typical vampire look anyway. Snape as a part Vampire(his mother was bitten while pregnant) I am not sure about but I did come up with a little theory that Snape has yet to become a Vampire but will the future. A Snape redeemed by almost death will be saved by a Vampire (female of course) and will return unexpctedly from the undead. Perhaps even uncaring of his mortal grudges. Awaiting your coments and critisisms Theresnothingtoit From smiller_92407 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 20:47:16 2002 From: smiller_92407 at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:47:16 -0000 Subject: If you were on the Hogwarts PTA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47490 I'm not a parent, but I kind of have a problem with the way that WW parents handle animal hazards and their children. Let's start with Hagrid - age 13. He is known to raise dangerous spiders, is suspected of keeping werewolf cubs, and is accused of releasing a lethal monster on the school. For this, he is expelled, but is kept on grounds at Hogwarts. From a parent's point of view, how does this solve the problem? The troublesome child is now forbidden to continue his education and possibly get some insights into the proper means of handling dangerous creatures. But he is not forbidden to KEEP them on the school grounds, and is in fact, encouraged to do so, by apprenticing to the gamekeeper. For the crime of releasing a murderous creature into the school population, I would think that more extreme measures would have been taken - moving him to a wizarding reform school or juvenile detention center. But no .... They just break his wand and stop his education. Wouldn't it make more sense to keep him in school where adults might have some luck at discouraging his tendency to innocently create nests of lethal creatures? Next - how about firing a known werewolf from the staff. OK, Lupin wasn't fired, but he believed he would be, so let's assume he's right. Actually, I'm thinking that most parents might want a werewolf caged and sedated, but that doesn't seem to have been a consideration. They just want him out of there. Again, if I'm a parent, I would rather have him visible where he can be controlled during his danerous periods, rather than running free who-knows-where without the benefit of a talented potions-maker nearby. I think the students liked him and he was a good teacher of a critical subject that they seem to have trouble finding competent instructors for. So, what is the problem? Parents on the list - how would you have handled this? ~ Constance Vigilance ~ From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sat Nov 30 21:30:37 2002 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:30:37 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Some Questions = Theories Wanted Message-ID: <37.310a2382.2b1a87fd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 47491 In a message dated 11/30/02 9:16:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, daniel.brent at cwctv.net writes: > 1) How would Ron have explained to the rest of the Weasley's about > the disappearence of Scabbers and aquiring Pig? We can see that they > do not know that Sirius is innocent in GoF and Ron supposedly has no > money... How would he explain Pig? > As to the disappearance of Scabbers, everyone already thought Crookshanks had eaten him. They found out he was alive in the course of events before the Shrieking Shack, so there was no chance for anyone outside of those who were in the shack and Dumbledore, to find out Scabbers wasn't really alive. I'm not sure how he explained Pig. Maybe he told his family Hermoine bought it to make up for her cat eating Ron's rat? >>>9)Why did Tom become Voldemort? Was there a trigger do you think? I think the trigger was finding out that his father had left his mother when he found out she was a witch. I'm not sure how he found that out though....hm....well, that's another story, never mind, anyway - Tom decided to get revenge on his father. Once he realized he had that power, well, people in power aren't too keen on giving it up now are they? >>4) How was Sirius allowed a flying motorbike and why did Dumbledore >>not react at Privet Drive? As far as he knows, Sirius is responsible >>yet he lets what Hagrid says about Sirius giving him the motorbike go >>over his head and doesn't even stop Hagrid when he says he wants to >>take the bike back to Sirius? Is this Dumbledore being lacklustre or >>something else? Perhaps Dumbledore didn't react because he knew there was something that wasn't quite right about it. He knew Sirius and the Potters and my bet is that he would've known that Sirius wouldn't sell them out. His flying motorbike is probably alot like the Weasley's car. Invisibility button and such. >>3) Where is the proof that Crouch attacked the Longbottoms? Sorry to >>reiterate it but it has not been proven that he is guilty... Not that being proved guilty would mean anything either *coughSiriuscough*. If Crouch *didn't* attack the Longbottoms, then he has a fantastic reason to join with Voldemort: he was imprisoned for something he didn't do without any evidence. Emotion is a powerful and irrational master (Yeah Rocky Horror Picture Show!). 10) Is Fudge merely corrupt, a good man at heart, or evil? And to what degree? I don't think Fudge is any of those. I think that he is blinded. He doesn't want to believe that the horrible evil that the WW thought was gone forever is still around. He's like those people who don't believe the Holocaust happened. Fudge is good, I suppose. His reaction is understandable: the most powerful evil wizard in hundreds, who was AK'ed is now back and going to try and take over again. Any rational person wouldn't want to believe it. The difference between Fudge and everyone else is that even though he knows it's true, he refuses to believe it. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 30 21:35:57 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 21:35:57 -0000 Subject: Leading into Temptation/the Light that Failed In-Reply-To: <34.310deb26.2b1a6de2@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47492 Stepping out of TBAY now, since it can be a bit exhausting at times. JOdel wrote: > Melody gives us a very nice extrapolation of the "Bait" or >"Non-Bait" theories. :) Thank you. Glad I managed to come off that way. > May I add a couple of possible fine-tunings. Of course, you may. >The Gringotts connection is highly sound. I am convinced that the >fact that the Stone had been sitting in a Gringotts vault had some >significance. But what we do not have any information on is how long >the Stone had been there, or whether it had been placed there by >Dumbledore or by Flamel. You hit the nail square on the head with that one. We *don't* know. There is no canon to contradict which is why it is hard to argue one way or the other. But let us try... You suggest that Flamel could live without the stone for at least a year, so it is possible that stone was in Gringotts for at least a year but probably longer. Kind of like with the British crown jewels. They are not needed everyday, so they sit well protected until that day. So when the queen needs to practice wearing the Imperial State Crown when she feeds her corgis or wants to hit Prince Phillip over the head with that diamond sceptre, she must go - wait, excuse me - *send* someone to go and fetch them for her. I would tend to agree with you JOdel. It is highly likely that the stone was placed in Gringott's a while ago for that purpose. I like the view that Gringott!stone was there to lure Voldemort from Albania, but really it does not infringe on your idea. Really whichever view you have of the purpose the stone was really there, the main bulk of the stone's purpose is in why the stone was removed in the nick of time and what was it's purpose after than time. Which comes to your next point. JOdel theorizes: >Obviously, in this case the area (Voldie's Albania) is monitored, and >Dumbledore is one of the people who gets reports on who and what has >been sighted there. And consequently, he recieved a report, at some >time earlier in the year, that Quirrell had shown up and investigated >the area. *small snip* In which case, he, and those of his staff >that he let in on the secret, already knew that Quirrell had been >gotten to, but did not know by what method, or whether Quirell was a >willing participant. Do you not find it the least bit curious that Quirrell just *happened* to wander to Albania of all places and just *happened* to find Voldemort. I mean, I have not been to Europe yet, but do a lot of people vacation in Albania? [Frankly, I had to go get out my atlas to find where the silly little place was.] I really think Quirrell was gently pushed there, but then again I subscribe to the notion that Quirrell was already had ever-so-evil tendencies. But my views aside, you are saying that Dumbledore knew Voldemort was in Albania, and Quirrell did not. Then when Quirrell came back, he was "infected" with Voldemort without Quirrell's consent. I guess my point of wonder is: it was Quirrell that brought Voldemort back to Hogwarts on Quirrell's own free will. Voldie did not "impose" himself onto Quirrell in the forest and possess him. Quirrell had his choices to make, and he chose to be in the league of Voldemort. That, in my opinion, makes him ever-so-evil. I also think Dumbledore knows that Voldie cannot possess people without this consent. Voldemort may be able to impose himself on animals, but on people that is another thing. Yes, Quirrell say Voldie wanted to keep a closer watch on him and thus attached himself to the back of Quirrell's head, but is that by force? Voldie could of threatened Quirrell somehow and coerced Quirrell into giving a consent, but I do not thing Vapourmort swept down on Quirrell in his sleep. It seems they had a nice long chat about the issue by the fire one night. It was Quirrell that decided to drink the unicorn's blood, and Quirrell that let the troll in. He kept making choices from his QuirrelMort self and thus was being just as evil as Voldemort. He was never taken over. Seduced possibly, but it is still his fault and on his head. This is not a Diary!Riddle possession after all. I doubt Quirrell could claim the same protects that Ginny could. >Now the question becomes whether the elaborate trap that Dumbledore >set up was intended primarily to capture and somehow contain >VaporMort (who Dumbledore knew could not be killed while he was in >that form) or to isolate and somehow attempt to rescue Quirrell. >And they could not let Quirrell know what they were up to, either. Um, JOdel. They did let him know. It was *his* troll before the Snape's logic puzzle. So, he knew the series of obstacles. He knew where the stone was. He just could not get past Fluffy. Do you mean they did not want Quirrell to know the *real* intent of the maze as bait for *him*? If that is so then why did they not let it slip earlier that Fluffy just had to be sang too? Seems the faster Quirrell fell for the plot, the sooner all would be made better. But, if Dumbledore needed Harry down there too, then they had to push off the d-day. >I think, (and I've mentioned this before) that Dumbledore let Harry >in on the secret of how the Mirror of Erised worked because he >intended for Harry to be the one to retrieve the Stone *after* the >shouting was over and the danger was past. **snip, snip** Retrieving >the Stone was a safe, appropriate adventure for a child to be >entrusted with. The mirror shows the deepest desire of Harry's heart. When Harry is alone with the mirror, he deepest desire is his parents. When he is on the quest, his deepest desire was to find the stone before Voldemort. How is it that this is not the deepest desire of Dumbledore, McGonagall, or Snape? Seems they too could retrieve the stone, since their deepest desire then would be to keep it from Voldemort as well? They also wanted to find it *and* not use it. To say otherwise, taints their halo so to speak, doesn't it? >Instead he gets back to encounter a panicy Granger and Weasly who >tell him that Harry has followed Quirrell into the labrynth. He >reaches the chamber of the Mirror in time to save Harry's life, but >Quirrell was lost and they did not trap Voldemort. The first thing Dumbledore said upon stumbling upon Ron and Hermione in the entrance hall was "Harry's gone after him, hasn't he?" and "hurtled off" to the mirror. (PS/SS, Ch17). They did not tell him. Seems, Dumbledore somehow *knew* Harry was going after the stone and was just making sure. I am not sure if they were trying to trap Voldemort in the mirror room. Destroy him as Quirrelmort yes, but trapping seems rather impossible given that he is still in vapour form. I do agree that Quirrell is lost whichever way since it was the leaving of Voldemort that killed him. >If Hogwarts is on the Floo network, all it would have taken would >have been for QuirrellMort to take off his turban and sit with his >back to the fire.) Hehehe, I can see McGonagall coming in and giving Quirrell a very queer look at the way he had himself situated. Plus the stench had to be horrific. >The awarding of House points to rule breakers was a bit tactless, >given that Slytherin appears to have honestly earned the house Cup >that year. After the cheating and rough housing of Quidditch and the attempt of Malfoy to get The Three in trouble over the dragon egg, can you really say Slytherin won those points honestly? Melody From indigo at indigosky.net Sat Nov 30 21:43:44 2002 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 21:43:44 -0000 Subject: Harry's Vault key In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021130143326.0306bb98@mailhost.jorsm.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47493 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Carol Bainbridge wrote: > Jacqui wrote: > ><< I am curious how Hagrid came to posses Harry's Gringott's vault key. Did > >he get it from Dumbledore? If he did, how did Dumbledore get it? He wasn't > >even at the Potter's on the night that Lily and James died. >> > > JOdel answered: > > >But he facilitated their disapearance, and probably had power of attourney > >while they were in hiding. Which implied assess to their funds in order to > >pay their bills, safekeeping for valuable artifacts and probably the custody > >of their private papers. > > That really makes a lot of sense. After all, we know that James left his > invisibility cloak in Dumbledore's safekeeping. Dumbledore didn't just > find it. He clearly states that James left it with him. It strikes me as > quite likely that James left more than that invisibility cloak with > him. We know that the Potters were aware they were in danger and so went > into hiding. > > (That makes me wonder something else. If Voldemort was after the Potters, > James and Harry in particular, wouldn't it have been safer to have two > different secret keepers and have Harry someplace else with someone else > watching over him? Of course, as a parent I wouldn't have wanted to leave > my son elsewhere; it was just a thought.) > > If the Potters knew they were at risk, wouldn't they provide for some > contingencies -- like their demise? If they did, did they fully expect > Harry to survive even if they didn't? What was the point of leaving > anything with Dumbledore for safekeeping? > > Indigo wrote: > >Maybe there's such a spell for important stuff. So that when James > >and Lily died, their important belongings apparated to a previously- > >agreed upon location where Dumbledore could then take ownership of > >said items for safekeeping. > > That's a good thought. I still have to wonder, though, what they were kept > safe for? Harry was with Lily and James. There are no other > relatives. What would Dumbledore, or anyone else, be keeping all the stuff > safe for? > > > Carol The vault key had to go into safekeeping or any-old-body could get into the Potters' vault and take their fortune -- at least insofar as the book has shown us, there's not a whole lot of ID checking they do to confirm that the person getting in the vault should be the one getting into the vault. The key seems to be it. Maybe the key is magicked as well to only open for its rightful owner [safekeeper]. As for the other stuff -- even though there are no other relatives, perhaps James and Lily wanted it to go to Sirius for Harry's upbringing since he's the godfather, or they trusted Dumbledore to do something good with the belongings since there were no other relatives. --Indigo From clicketykeys at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 19:53:17 2002 From: clicketykeys at yahoo.com (clicketykeys) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 19:53:17 -0000 Subject: Revisitng The Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47494 vincentjh wrote: > > BTW, isn't it a bit unusual for a 12-year-old to memorize something > > like that? This isn't the only time Ron recalls a decree or a case, > > but IIRC he's not particularly good at history. Odd. Indigo wrote: > His dad works Ministry of Magic. Perhaps all the Weasley kids were > made to memorise anything that related to them that could get Arthur > in trouble if they didn't follow it? Or he's heard Fred and George reciting it in their defense an awful lot. ;) -C.K. clicketykeys From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 21:10:31 2002 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 21:10:31 -0000 Subject: If you were on the Hogwarts PTA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47495 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Miller" wrote: > I'm not a parent, but I kind of have a problem with the way that WW > parents handle animal hazards and their children. > > Let's start with Hagrid - age 13. He is known to raise dangerous > spiders, is suspected of keeping werewolf cubs, and is accused of > releasing a lethal monster on the school. For this, he is expelled, > but is kept on grounds at Hogwarts. From a parent's point of view, > how does this solve the problem? The troublesome child is now > forbidden to continue his education and possibly get some insights > into the proper means of handling dangerous creatures. But he is not > forbidden to KEEP them on the school grounds, and is in fact, > encouraged to do so, by apprenticing to the gamekeeper. Upon reflection, I think perhaps the ban on apparating *into* Hogwarts might be to prevent irate parents from storming the place. This is a difficult question to answer only because we really have no inkling of what alternatives there are available. ARE there wizarding reform schools? (Some would argue Slytherin house serves this purpose) Is there a juvenile detention center? Perhaps there is--there are certainly enough laws against underage magic to warrant something of the sort for chronic rule-breakers. I would think if there were, though, Snape would have mentioned it by now during one of his attempts to get Harry expelled. I'm sure he'd feel more likely to be heard if he could offer an alternative! I'm afraid as an outsider to the WW at the time of Hagrid's "incident" there is really no way of answering this. > > Next - how about firing a known werewolf from the staff. OK, Lupin > wasn't fired, but he believed he would be, so let's assume he's > right. Actually, I'm thinking that most parents might want a werewolf > caged and sedated, but that doesn't seem to have been a > consideration. They just want him out of there. Again, if I'm a > parent, I would rather have him visible where he can be controlled > during his danerous periods, rather than running free who-knows- where > without the benefit of a talented potions-maker nearby. I think the > students liked him and he was a good teacher of a critical subject > that they seem to have trouble finding competent instructors for. So, > what is the problem? There's more to this...how about having a known werewolf as a student? One so dangerous that he needs to be removed regularly from the regular population? Did the parents know? "Severus dear, next term would you just check around for Mummy and see if what Mrs. Gossip here is saying is true at all?" HIRING a werewolf as a teacher--again how much do the parents know? And as far as the "talented potions maker"...well he has a bit of a dark past of his own and some might not want *him* around their impressionable little ones. I really have no clue what I'd think if my kids were there. Possibly this: At the moment (in the books) it is very likely that despite all this the single safest place IN the WW is Hogwarts School. At least that was true until the appearance of the trouble attracting Harry Potter. Perhaps it is a matter of the devil you know v. the devil you don't? Now a more important question--would I send my kids there if the invite showed up today? Absolutely. Melpomene who'll run the bake sale! From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 21:35:11 2002 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 21:35:11 -0000 Subject: new female DADA teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47496 > Sally says: > These are my thoughts on the possibility of Mrs Figg being the next > DADA teacher. > surely she would have to be highly skilled in DADA if she's to keep > HP safe from the most evil wizard in wizard-dom? > OTOH, it's possible that something along the lines of a Fidelius > Charm could have been put to use, in which case she wouldn't need any > special skill to keep him safe, just the ability to keep a secret. Laura says: I would argue that, given the Potter's previous experience with the Fidelius Charm, more than this would be used as protection for Harry. After all, he is held in quite high esteem by the wizarding world- I doubt Dumbledore would entrust his protection to the will power of one person, despite how trustworthy this person might be. This leads me to believe that Mrs. Figg does indeed have other powers. I had not come to the conclusion of AF being the new DADA teacher on my own, but now that it's been mentioned, it does make sense. > Two points to note though, if she's a witch, why did she have to use > crutches after breaking her leg? Surely Madam Pomphrey isn't the only > witch with a bottle of Skelegrow in her bathroom cabinet? Laura says: Perhaps as way of trying to fit in to the Muggle World. Anyone who knew that her lag had been broken would be suspicious if it healed suddenly. > And secondly, if she does take up the post, what's going to happen to > Tibbles, Snowy Mr Paws and Tufty (et al)? Will they all be taking up > residence at Hogwarts? > Unless.... > It's the cats who are the protectors of Harry???? > Now there's a thought. Its not AF who's guarding Harry, its her cats. > Could they be Animagi? Laura says: A lot has been said about the role of cats in HP: notably Mrs Figg's cats, Crookshanks, Prof. McGonagall being able to transform into a cat. Of course, what this could mean in terms of plot (if it means anything) is purley speculation. Perhaps a connection to eyes? JKR has hinted that there may be some substance to the theories about Harry and Lily's eyes (BBC, FALL 2000, http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/Fall_2000_BBC_Newsround.htm) and cats have rather peircing eyes as well, and the ability to see in the dark. That's as far as my connection goes, though. Just a thought: Mrs Figg has her many cats, Aunt Marge has her many dogs. Not necessarily very important, but does anyone else see a dramatic foil? -Laura P.S. fairly off topic, but I think Arabella is an awesome name. JKR gives her characters great names. From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 23:14:15 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 23:14:15 -0000 Subject: On the nature of theories/MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 47497 Pip!Squeak ("bluesqueak") wrote > Canon point: In CoS Dobby knows all about the Riddle Diary plot. To > know about it, Dobby must have heard Lucius talking about it. The > options are: Malfoy's wife, his son (which Draco denies), his house- > elf ? or the original owner of the diary. > > Dumbledore's view on the matter: " But this time Lord Voldemort > was acting through somebody else. By means of this diary." He held > up the small black book with the large hole through the centre, > *watching Mr Malfoy closely.*[CoS, Ch.18 p. 246, my emphasis.] > > Dumbledore is directing the `Lord Voldemort was acting through > somebody else' to Lucius Malfoy. Dumbledore's view is that > Voldemort was acting through Malfoy ? Voldemort had given his loyal > follower orders to use the diary. Now me: I agree that Lucius hatched the plot, and probably with Voldemort's or Memory!Riddle's assistance. But I think that the person Dumbledore is referencing in this statement is not Lucius Malfoy - it's Ginny Weasley. Dumbledore says that Voldemort "was acting through somebody else." Memory!Riddle acted through Ginny Weasley in order to open the Chamber of Secrets, command the Basilisk as to whom to attack, put messages on the walls, and kill roosters. Riddle tells Harry so in the Chamber. So while I agree that Lucius hatched the plot, and either Voldemort or Memory!Riddle was behind the plot, I believe the person Dumbledore is referencing in this statement is Ginny. Dumbledore is looking intently at Lucius while making this statement because he suspects that Lucius was behind the plot to frame Ginny, and he wants to assess Lucius' reactions. ~Phyllis