[HPforGrownups] GOF: Some things cleared up by reading. And LOTS of various questions/theories

[rvotaw at i-55.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 46236

Julie writes:

> So we know the Whomping Willow was put in place for Lupin.  Which 
> would indicate that the Weasleys were not at Hogwarts when the 
> Potters were.  But it also means that however old Hagrid is, Mrs. 
> Weasley is older!

Not necessarily.  Hagrid was 16 when the chamber was opened the first time.  
That was fifty years before the second opening.  Which means Hagrid is 
approximately 66 years old.  The Whomping Willow was planted when Lupin came to 
Hogwarts.  Snape being approximately 35, assuming they were in about the same 
year, means Lupin came to Hogwarts 24 years ago.  That still leaves a gap of 26 
years with no whomping willow and after Hagrid was expelled.  We do not know 
that Hagrid instantly overnight became groundskeeper for Hogwarts.  I'm sure it 
took years of training as an assistant before he took over the job completely.  
I still reckon that Hagrid was in training for at least 15 years before he got 
the job completely.  I say that Hagrid was at Hogwarts as a helper when the 
Weasleys were there.  And I doubt they had much interaction with him, as he 
wouldn't have much reason to come up to the castle, and not much reason for 
them to go visiting him.

> Now, you can either interpret this as Voldemort being incredibly 
> stupid, or trying to let Harry get away again.  Although I found it 
> interesting that Crouch!Moody thought that killing Harry would bring 
> him even more glory, as Voldemort seemed to not want any DE to kill 
> Harry, as he wanted that privilidge himself.

Voldemort wasn't trying to let Harry get away, or else he wouldn've screamed in 
fury.  He didn't know Harry could Accio something, or didn't think of it, which 
comes back to Crouch!Moody again.  Since he gave him the accio idea to begin 
with in the first task.  Crouch!Moody has a twisted idea of what Voldemort 
wants, he's really quite clueless.  If he had succeeded in killing Harry, 
Voldemort would probably have killed him in a fit of anger.

> Now I have two thoughts here.  First being that the Triwizard Cup 
> should not have been a portkey.  The second being that as it was, he 
> did not warn anyone not to touch the Triwizard Cup.  Are portkeys 
> strictly one time use?  Do they always have a return destination on 
> them?

I think this particular portkey was designed to transport the winner out of the 
maze.  However, Crouch!Moody messed with it and added a stop.  So that the 
first stop was the graveyard and the second destination the original intention, 
outside the maze.  

> So if they knew they were so far away, and they knew the cup was a 
> portkey, why didn't they just grab it and go back to the game?  They 
> had plenty of time.  Instead they stood there watching Wormtail carry 
> Voldemort over.

But they weren't certain.  They thought it might be part of the task, part that 
hadn't been explained.  Possibly even a tie breaker.  Which, ironically, it 
was.  And by the time Harry realized what was happening he was a bit disabled 
(on the ground retching with his scar hurting) and an instant later Cedric was 
dead.

> So . . . my thoughts on this are:
> 1. Is Dumbledore related to Harry?

Slightly possible, something like a great great great grandfather or 
something.  On the Potter side, perhaps.  But once again, I guess that's a bit 
Star Wars. :)

> 2. Dumbledore always seems to know what Harry is up to . . . does he 
> have some sort of way of watching him no matter where he is?  
> Dumbledore never actually asks Harry what happened when he's holding 
> onto Harry when he came back to the stadium.  Harry offers the 
> information instead.  All Dumbledore says is Harry's name as he tries 

I think it has something to do with the watch with the planets.  I think Harry 
is one of them and it tells him what's going on with him.  Vaguely, though, not 
every detail.

> My next question has to do with Harry's right arm being the one 
> stabbed by Wormtail to revive Voldemort.  This is the same right arm 
> where the bones had to regrow, and was stabbed by the Basilisk.  At 
<snip>
> poisons and everything else had happened to this arm?  Or maybe it 
> was because he knew that something he had done worked?

I think it's got something to do with that arm, or else it's way too big of a 
coincidence.  I just can't quite put my finger on it, though.  But it is 
specifically always that arm.  The deboning, the fang, the cut, all the same 
arm.

Ah, well, that's enough for now.

Richelle
  ----------

Ok, about 3 weeks ago or so I mentioned that I had thought the 
Riddles were killed by the Basilisk.  Yet if that were true, well, I 
have to ask, if they're killed by the basilisk, they're bodies would 
not decay, right?

GOF p 641
*snip*
"Bone of the father, unknowingly given, you will renew your son!"

The surface of the grave at Harry's feet cracked.  Horrified, Harry 
watched as a fine trickle of dust rose into the air at Wormtail's 
command and fell softly into the cauldron.
*snip*

So I'm also now on the page of Avada Kedavra :o)

-----------
Someone please tell me again how old Hagrid is?  How old is Mrs. 
Weasley?  Two things in GOF make me ask this question:

GOF p 617:

*snip*
Mrs. Weasley was intrigued by the Whomping Willow, which had been 
planted after she had left school, and reminisced at length about the 
gamekeeper before Hagrid, a man called Ogg.
*snip*

So we know the Whomping Willow was put in place for Lupin.  Which 
would indicate that the Weasleys were not at Hogwarts when the 
Potters were.  But it also means that however old Hagrid is, Mrs. 
Weasley is older!

----------
Voldemort seems to make stupid mistakes simply because he does not 
think through what he wants to do because he's so power hungry!  His 
first mistake was when he allowed Mrs. Potter to die in the attempt 
to save Harry.

GOF p 652:

*snip*
"His mother died in the attempt to save him -- and unwittingly 
provided him with a protection I admit I had not foreseen. . . . I 
could not touch the boy."
*snip*

And the second mistake is that he is so puffed up with trying to make 
his DE's see that a mere little boy could not kill him, that he 
decides that he has to duel with the boy to make sure the boy could 
even attempt to defend himself.  Yet again he forgot about another 
ancient magic, or maybe he would have at least thought about finding 
out what was in Harry's wand.  You can see this in the complete shock 
on his face through that whole scene.  And then to top it all off, he 
does not want help from the DE's.  He wants to be the one to kill 
Harry.  Here the DE's are incredibly near Harry (presumably by all 
the shots fired at him from the wands, and by the muffled yell when 
he yells the Impediment Curse.  Yet we see his puffed up pride 
allowing Harry just enough time to get away:

GOF p 669:
*snip*
"Stand aside!  I will kill him!  He is mine!"  shrieked Voldemort.

Harry's hand had closed on Cedric's wrist; one tombstone stood 
between him and Voldemort, but Cedric was too heavy to carry, and the 
cup was out of reach --

Voldemort's red eyes flamed in the darkness.  Harry saw his mouth 
curl into a smile, saw him raise his wand.

"Accio!" Harry yelled, pointing his wand at the Triwizard Cup.

It flew into the air and soared toward him.  Harry caught it by the 
handle --

He heard Voldemort's scream of fury at the same moment that he felt 
the jerk behind his navel that meant the Portkey had worked -- it was 
speeding him away in a whirl of wind and color, and Cedric along with 
him. . . .  They were going back.
*snip*

Now, you can either interpret this as Voldemort being incredibly 
stupid, or trying to let Harry get away again.  Although I found it 
interesting that Crouch!Moody thought that killing Harry would bring 
him even more glory, as Voldemort seemed to not want any DE to kill 
Harry, as he wanted that privilidge himself.

-----------
Now I have another question about the Triwizard cup Portkey.  Neither 
Harry nor Cedric had heard that the Triwizard cup was a portkey.  
They both thought they just had to touch it, and the game would be 
over.  Now, when he is transported back to the starting point (as 
Triwizard cups do when you grab them again) he found himself just 
outside the maze.  I presume this is where people get the idea that 
it was supposed to be a portkey for the games?  But I don't believe 
this could be quite the complete explanation.  I don't believe that 
Portkeys bring you back to the exact spot where you transported from, 
but somewhere near it.  I think the end of the maze was right next to 
the stands.

GOF p 636-637
*snip*
Cedric looked down at the Triwizard Cup and then up at Harry.

"Did anyone tell you the cup was a Portkey?" he asked.

"Nope," said Harry.  He was looking around the graveyard.  It was 
completely silent and slightly eerie.  "Is this supposed to be part 
of the task?"

"I dunno," said Cedric.  He sounded slightly nervous.  "Wands out, 
d'you reckon?"

"Yeah," said Harry, glad that Cedric had made the suggestion rather 
than him.
*snip*

GOF p 671
*snip*
He had come back to the edge of the maze.  He could see the stands 
rising above him, the shapes of people moving in them, the stars 
above.
*snip*

Now I have two thoughts here.  First being that the Triwizard Cup 
should not have been a portkey.  The second being that as it was, he 
did not warn anyone not to touch the Triwizard Cup.  Are portkeys 
strictly one time use?  Do they always have a return destination on 
them?

My second thought is that if both Harry and Cedric thought that the 
transportation to what was obviously hundreds of miles away from 
Hogwarts . . . 

GOF p 636 (obviously before the conversation above!):
*snip*
They had left the Hogwarts grounds completely; they had obviously 
traveled miles -- perhaps hundreds of miles -- for even the mountains 
surrounding the castle were gone. 
*snip*

So if they knew they were so far away, and they knew the cup was a 
portkey, why didn't they just grab it and go back to the game?  They 
had plenty of time.  Instead they stood there watching Wormtail carry 
Voldemort over.

----------
Harry's protection.

GOF p 657:
*snip*
"But how to get at Harry Potter?  For he has been better protected 
than I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore 
long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future.  
Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection 
as long as he is in his relations' care.  Not even I can touch him 
there. . . .   Then, of course, there was the Quidditch World 
Cup. . . .   I thought his protection might be weaker there, away 
from his releations and Dumbledore,"
*snip*

Maybe you already get where this is going . . . 

GOF p 680:
*snip*
"This is not Alastor Moody," said Dumbledore quietly.  "You have 
never known Alastor Moody.  The real Moody would not have removed you 
from my sight after what happened tonight.  The moment he took you, I 
knew -- and I followed."
*snip*

GOF p 657:
*snip*
"And then, the boy would return to Hogwarts, where he isunder the 
crooked nose of tha Muggle-loving fool from morning until night.  So 
how could I take him?"
*snip*

GOF p 664:
*snip*
And then an unearthly and beautiful sound filled the air. . . .   It 
was coming from every thread of the light-spun web vibrating around 
Harry and Voldemort.  It was a sound Harry recognized, though he had 
heard it only once before in his life: phoenix song.

It was the sound of hope to Harry . . . the most beautiful and 
welcome thing he had ever heard in his life. . . .   He felt as 
though the song were inside him instead of just around him. . . .   
It was the sound he connected with Dumbledore, and it was almost as 
though a friend were speaking in his ear. . . .

Don't break the connection.
*snip*

So . . . my thoughts on this are:
1. Is Dumbledore related to Harry?
2. Dumbledore always seems to know what Harry is up to . . . does he 
have some sort of way of watching him no matter where he is?  
Dumbledore never actually asks Harry what happened when he's holding 
onto Harry when he came back to the stadium.  Harry offers the 
information instead.  All Dumbledore says is Harry's name as he tries 
to get him to come back to conciousness.  I almost think that in the 
office Dumbledore has Harry repeat everything that happens, just so 
he can think through what happened.  After all, he does say in Crouch!
Moody's office:

GOF p 680:
*snip*
"He will stay, Minerva, because he needs to understand," said 
Dumbledore curtly.  "Understanding is the first step to acceptance, 
and only with acceptance can there be recovery.  He needs to know who 
has put him through the ordeal he has suffered tonight, and why."
*snip*

----------
My next question has to do with Harry's right arm being the one 
stabbed by Wormtail to revive Voldemort.  This is the same right arm 
where the bones had to regrow, and was stabbed by the Basilisk.  At 
the same time, I was wondering, Harry had kicked the spider in the 
maze, and kicked him in the fangs and had poison all over him, and I 
would think that part of that poison was in his blood . . . surely 
they judges were able to see everything that was happening in the 
maze.  Do you think Dumbledore was thinking about this as well when 
he and Sirius were so concerned about Harry's arm being cut open?  
Maybe the gleam in his eye has something to do with knowing that the 
poisons and everything else had happened to this arm?  Or maybe it 
was because he knew that something he had done worked?

----------
Snape.

Why does Dumbledore trust him?  Dumbledore told Harry it was between 
him and Snape.  Yet, we know Snape was indeed a DE, before he for 
some reason turned back to the other side.  And then . . . 

GOF p 713:
*snip*
"Severus," said Dumbldore, turning to Snape, "you know what I must 
ask you to do.  If you are ready . . . if you are prepared . . ."

"I am," said Snape.

He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes 
glittered strangely.

"Then good luck," said Dumbledore, and he watched, with a trace of 
apprehension on his face, as Snape swept wordlessly after Sirius.
*snip*

So Dumbledore is apprehensive.  I have been thinking about this.  I 
can see that maybe they have some sort of plan that they had 
initiated when Snape turned back . . . Snape would lure Voldemort 
into a direct connection with Dumbledore, making him think Dumbledore 
has become weak or something along those lines, and therefore 
Dumbledore would have a chance to take on Voldemort directly.  Maybe 
the idea is that Dumbledore would die, or perhaps he's used the 
Sorcer's Stone himself . . . and that something can only start with 
Dumbledore's death?  Something along those lines anyway.

Perhaps Dumbledore's death is the one for OOP.  Perhaps only in death 
can Dumbledore be defeated.  On the other hand, perhaps Snape will be 
killed as Voldemort says that he fears the one missing there in the 
DE circle (perhaps JK is misleading us here -- after all he passes 
other DE's without comment.  This could be Karkarof or Snape that he 
simply passes as well . . . ) is gone from him forever.  On the other 
hand, since Harry and Voldemort are so firmly connected by their 
scar, perhaps Harry will have to die in the end to defeat Voldemort, 
or perhaps the scar will simply disappear when Voldemort finally 
dies?  

Ok, just my thoughts ;o)  All comments welcome!!

Julie

"It is still best to be honest and truthful; to make the most of what 
we have; to be happy with simple pleasures and to be cheerful and 
have courage when things go wrong."
Laura Ingalls Wilder




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