How Twenty is Twenty?

[Grey Wolf]

No: HPFGUIDX 46610

Jazmyn wrote:
> I disagree as when I went to school, double classes were 90 minute
> classes rather then 45 minute classes, double in length, not size. 

I know that. Since my school didn't segregate the students into houses 
(although we did have them), a double class was also double in length 
for me, but that is beside the point. My point was that what *Steve* 
(NOT JKR) meant by "double" *in the content of that post* was 
double-house classes. Nothing more and nothing less.
 
> There is no solid evidence that all classes are required to be taken
> every single year either,

No solid evidence? I have to disagree. Canon point: 
(CoS, ch. 14, Sp. Ed, liberal translation)
"The moment had come to choose optative lessons for the next year[...]
- The only thing I want is not having Potions - said Harry.
- Impossible - said Ron gloomily -. We'll continue with all the lessons 
we already have. If not, I would get rid of Defense Against the Dark 
Arts."

So it seems that all the lectures they had in the first and second 
years (i.e, DADA, Potions, Transfiguration, Charms, History, etc.) are 
*required* to be taken every year.

> since it might well be tailored for each
> 'major' and we are only seeing mostly kids who are just doing general
> glasses and not majoring in anything or all have the same major. 
> There might be a certain number of credits required in some fields to
> graduate, 

I have no understanding of what you mean by major in this context, but 
so far none of the evidence of the WW's education system points towards 
any sort of "credit" system, nor of the specialization you seem to be 
speaking of (I'd like to see canon for *that*). AFAIK, the only 
reasonable asumption on that line is based on the British educational 
system, which (by extrapolation) says that anyone can leave Hogwarts 
after the OWL levels to join the working population. Note too that, 
when Harry asks Percy for help, there is a hint of specialization, but 
only based around those three optional classes they have to get, and 
how he should choose whatever he's good at.
 
>judging by Ron's insistance that they keep their old
> subjects..

Re-read that scene, you've got it all wrong: Ron does *not* insist that 
they keep their old subjects: he especificly mentions that he would 
like to drop DADA, but that they *can't*, because they can only choose 
*new* lessons from a list, not drop subjects they're already taking.

> Seems like every class has two houses represented in it, wiether
> double (length) or not.  

Wrong again. There is absolutely no canon that points towards two 
houses in Charms, Transfiguration or DADA. Logic implies that no-one 
can prove a negative, so it's a difficult to make a case out of a 
comment is not in the books - that is, Harry thinking "Oh, I like 
Charms, because there are no Slytherins here" (unless I've missed it). 
There is, however, the fact that there is no metion of any of those 
classes ever being taught with another house, while JKR is careful to 
mention, at least once per book, the fact that Potions, Herbology, 
CoMC, and even the single lesson of flight had been taught with another 
house. 

There is also circunstancial evidence. For example, Ron mentions in PS 
that Snape is reputed to favour Slytherins, and points out that they 
would discover if it's true on the first Potions lesson. Harry then 
comments that he wished McGonagal would favour them, since the fact 
that they were Gryffindors hadn't stopped her from giving lots of 
homework in the first transfiguration lesson. If they were with another 
class, Harry would've worded that differently, in the lines of "as much 
homework as such-and-such house that was with them". Obvioulsy, this 
isn't necesarily the case, but as that reasoning any number can be done 
all along the four books. And the acumulation of circunstancial 
evidence is as good as direct evidence.

> Harry must have bad luck getting into optional classes before they
> are filled if he keeps ending up in Divination. Maybe he is also just
> following Percy's suggestions. If Divination was 'required', then
> Hermione could not drop out of it.  Or he is lousy at figuring out
> how to pick his classes or just randomly picks them to get it over 
> with, like Dean Thomas did.

You asume that, once chosen the optionals, they can be changed. This is 
not necesarily the case, by what can be seen on the books. Hermione    
*drops* some of the classes because she feels too tired of trying to 
take 6 or so lessons at the same time. None of the others seem to have 
been able to change their options after third year, although Hermione 
does mention that they should've changed to aritmancy with her. This, 
however, is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Also, I'm not sure of why you bring up that Divination is 'required'. 
I'm pretty sure I have never even *hinted* in that direction. I know 
perfectly well that Divination is an optative lesson and I've never 
said otherwise.

> Or maybe the class is a pre-req for a class he really wanted?

If they are, why didn't he consider the otions in that chapter of GoF? 
Harry is an intelligent guy, and so is most of his friends. You'd think 
that someone would've brought up the fact that "if you get Divination 
know, you'll be able to study Scrying in 6th year", especially Percy 
that was trying to be helpful. When something is not in the books you 
can of course try and find plausible reasoning to include it in one of 
your theories, but it won't constitute canon (and most of the time will 
be quite shacky).

> What excuse for Binns?  He doesn't eat, why would he want to sit in
> at meals? Can he sit in?  Would he just keep embarrassingly sinking
> through the chair into the floor, being a ghost? ;)

The excuse for Binns cannot be re-used: we are told by Harry that he's 
the only ghost teacher, so there aren't any other "unknown" teachers 
that Harry has not seen because they are dead and thus don't have to 
eat (I discount off-hand the idea of a vampiric teacher, since parents 
hed enought trouble with a teacher that would try to bite their 
children one week out of four). What I meant is that there are only so 
many excuses for *not* attending the feasts, and since Binns uses one 
and Trelawney uses another (doesn't like the crowds), there aren't that 
many other teachers that we haven't heard of becuase they don't attend 
meals (unless they all happen to be frightened of crouds, like 
Trelawney. And, as I said, that wears a little thin as an excuse after 
the first one).
 
> Or the room isn't wide enough for a staff table that fits everyone,
> so only certain ones sit there.  Filch doesn't sit there either, but
> he is not a professor, but an employee.

There is indeed a theory that states that there are any number of 
teachers Harry hasn't ever mentioned that are subordinated to the ones 
he has, and that don't rate enough in the school system to be allowed 
to eat in the table with the rest of the teachers. I find that 
extremely unlikely myself, not because they eat in another table, but 
because I cannot believe that there haven't been mentioned as 
individuals or as institution ("Sometines Snape's helper joined to help 
the Slytherins with their potions") in four books. Besides, If the 
teachers have helpers, why did Snape have to teach Lupin's classes 
during his time of the month?

> > I personally discount that there are lessons Harry hasn't told us
> > about. After 4
> > years, I find it hard to believe that he has ignored every single
> > lesson, homework and exam of a class.
> 
> I doubt it.  Rowling is telling a story, not recounting Real Life. 
> Shes apt to write ANYTHING in that sounds good, wither the fans like
> it or not.  If she thinks Magic Shop Class or Latin Studies sounds
> good, she would include it, even if there was NO mention of it in any
> previous books.  Shes not done springing new stuff on us yet, by any
> means.  If she has already told us EVERYTHING about classes at
> Hoggwarts, then why bother focusing so much attention on the school
> in the first place if shes going to bore people with it being 'same
> old thing' after a few books.  Note how she sprung the TriWizard
> thing on us, when we were thinking there would be more Quiddich? 
> We never even heard about Ancient Runes and
> Muggle Studies till the second book and they are only mentioned in
> passing.

Yes, JKR springs surprises on us in every book, but one of those 
surprises is NOT going to be "Harry had been studying Wizard Geography 
and Italian since first year, but for the first time in five years 
something interesting enough to wake up had happened". Because we know 
that he has told us about every one of his classes, even the boring 
ones like History. The TriWizard competition was introduced, yes, just 
like the optional classes, but always *before* Harry lived through 
them. No comments of "Oh, now I understand why everyone was so excited 
in three years ago when all those weird-sounding people came to pay a 
call". Harry doesn't mention Ancient Runes or Muggle studies until 
second year because before that Harry hadn't heard about them.

> Could see it now:
> 
> Ron: Look at the fairyhouse I made in Magic Shop Class! Its enchanted to
> be big enough on the inside to hold a thousand fairies!  Oh, Goyle's
> hand got cut off with the magical saw and he is up in the Infirmary
> having it magically reattached.  Professor Wrenchworth was really angry!
> 
> Harry: Wicked. (turns it over, looking at it from all sides and handing
> it back) But how do the fairies get in?
> 
> Ron: (looks at the fairyhouse and blinks) Oh!  I don't believe it!  I
> forgot to make a hole in the front!
> 
> Hermione: (rolls her eyes) Really, Ron!

You might see it, but I do not. That is the difference between us. I 
don't think JKR is the sort of (bad) writter that will introduce a 
class that has been going in the background just like that. If she 
wants to introduce "Magic Shop Class", it will be another form of 
optative, not something Ron has been studying for the last three years 
without Harry noticing. That's a very cheap form of introducing 
anything in a book, and JKR hasn't done any of the sort thus far. The 
oposite is, in fact, the case most of the time: if you look carefully, 
you can see that she has laid plot points eggs all over the place -like 
Scabbers, or Sirius' motorbike. Ron didn't suddenly have a rat in PoA 
for the last eleven years: it was introduced in the first book. And we 
already know that Sirius had been near the house during the fateful 
night - or would have, if we had paid attention (which I didn't).

> However, Rowling blew everyone's 'head counts' of numbers of students
> out of the water when she was asked directly and said 'about a
> thousand'
>
> Either shes got some more classes up her sleeves or when she says
> 'twenty', she means a lot more then that.. or maybe there are as many
> students as the author NEEDS there to be in any scene, much like how
> movies are filmed. 
> 
> --Jazmyn--

On the contrary, I feel that Catlady's theory of multiple campus covers 
quite well JKR's number of 1000 students, while still using the 350 
figure, but that is hardly the point, since JKR interviews aren't hard 
canon. If we wanted to get LOONy about it, we could say that that 
interview is wrong and that from the evidence contained within the 
books we know that there cannot be more than 500 students at the castle 
at this point.

Strangely enough, that is somthing very hard to do anyway, since there 
are situations where the 1000 figure stands. And yet there are some 
30-odd students between Gryfindor, Slytherin and Hufflepuff in Harry's 
year. Which is why I like the multiple campus theory.

There is no need for extra classes of any kind to explain what's going 
on, although you are welcomed to work out a theory around it and 
provide canon to suport it.

Hope that helps,

Grey Wolf