Snape, Spy and Assassin

[theresnothingtoit]

No: HPFGUIDX 46862

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Judy" <judyshapiro at d...> wrote:
On Snapes task at the end of GoF:
> First, there's the timing.  He's sent on the task immediately after
> Voldemort's return.  Second, it's something that Dumbledore "must 
ask
> of" Snape, which implies that the task is vital and that Snape is 
the
> only one who can do it. Spying on Voldemort fits both of these
> criteria.  Third, the task is clearly supposed to be dangerous,
> judging by Dumbledore's concerned look; spying on Voldemort certain
> fits this criterion as well.  

The timeing issue interests me here.  Snape has to go imediatly 
on "The Task" and sweeps out of the room.  My little theory on this 
is Snape must use the time turner and nip back a couple of hours to 
visit the DE family reunion.  That is why he starts when Harry begins 
to name the Death Eaters, if Snape is mentioned as not attending then 
there can be no hope of a little time turning (I follow the notion 
that traveling back in time is almost like explaining Quantum 
Physics - Hermione can not go back to Charms once Harry and Ron tell 
her she wasn't there).

> So, the big problem is "Why in the world would Voldemort take Snape
> back, after Snape went over to Dumbledore's side?" A difficult
> question, but I can think of several reasons:
> 
> 1) Voldemort doesn't want to believe that Snape actually was spying 
on
> him.
> 
> It's well known that Snape was a double-agent by the end of VoldeWar
> I.  But, that still leaves Voldemort with the question of whose side
> Snape was *really* on.  Voldemort has two choices.  He can believe
> that (A) Snape was working for Dumbledore and spying on Voldemort,
> while Voldemort was dumb enough to trust him; or  (B) Snape was
> working for Voldemort and spying on Dumbledore, while Dumbledore was
> dumb enough to trust him. 
> 
> So, which will Voldemort believe?  Remember, we're talking about
> *Voldemort* here. "Evil Overlord" Voldemort.  "I'm the greatest 
wizard
> ever" Voldemort. "Phoenix Tears, I forgot" Voldemort.  He's going to
> go with choice B.  Voldemort will think that Snape was really on his
> side all along, and pulled the wool over the eyes of "that fool"
> Dumbledore. 

I think we are missing a key character witness for the theory that 
Snape is still seen as a DE by those from the Dark Side.  Step up 
Lucius Malfoy and his oddius little son Draco "my dad would vote you 
head master of Hogwarts, your the best teacher here" Malfoy.  Would 
Voldemorts slippery friend really let his precious son be taught by a 
traitor.  We know Lucius hears about Snape from Dracos comments and I 
feel they may know each other better then we hear about in canon as 
well but I'm not too sure on that point.  Lucius is clearly very 
influencial and would quickly point out to Fudge that it was not safe 
to have an ex-murderer/rapist/generally-all-round-evil guy teaching 
the future generation no matter how reformed.  But a Snape-evil-in-
the-eyes-of-the-enemy, well, that's just too good a pawn to sacrafice.

 Suppose Snape goes to Voldemort at the end
> of GoF. I imagine a conversation like the following.
> Voldemort: "Bwahahaha, no one can fool me!  I can easily tell if you
> are loyal to me.  Tell me, Snape, my slippery friend, whose side are
> you on?"  
> Snape: "Why, the winning side of course, my Lord.  That is why I 
have
> returned to you." 
> At this point, Voldemort's enormous ego kicks in and he assumes that
> "the winning side" is *his* side, even though Snape never said any
> such thing.

I can see Snape making a good deal of these conversations.  Hopefully 
to Black and infront of Harry.  Deep rooting the mistrust Harry feels 
towards towards his Potions master.  Interestingly enough Hermione 
seems quite happy to trust Snape while Ron believes him about as far 
as he could through the "greasy-haired-git".  I can here a good 
many "I told you so" conversations between those two.

On getting Voldemort to definatly welcome him back into the fold:
> First, Karkaroff tried to save his own hide by putting Snape in
> Azkaban.  I can just picture a flashback to Karkaroff telling Snape,
> "I'm sorry I tried to sacrifice you, but I had no choice -- you
> understand, don't you?"  followed by Snape about to AK Karkaroff
> and saying, "I'm sorry I have to sacrifice you, but I have no choice
> -- you understand, don't you?"  

Wow!  I love this little scene you have constructed.  It bangs in 
oscar worthy-ness if not in action.  But I would love to see it 
played out.  Unfortuatly we have the whole - book is written through 
Harry's eyes - but I am sure JKR would some how work this scene in.

Interestingly enough I am looking forward to when Snape meets Mrs 
Lestange fresh out of Azkaban.  She, ofcourse, will not have been 
driven mad as she believes herself to be completly inocent and 
Dementors feed off guilt.  I see her as a typical evil-lady leather 
thiegh highs and all.  She does not believe a word that Snape is on 
the dark side and tortures him long and hard infront of Black and 
Potter so he suffers the indignity of screaming agony infront of his 
two enemys.  Oh, and Longbottem might be there as well, Snape and 
Neville are connected in a way I have not quite figured out yet, but 
that is a whole other post.


> Furthermore, if Snape returns to spying on Voldemort, Karkaroff will
> have to be assassinated by *someone*, due to Voldeort's "One DE that
> has left me forever, one too cowardly to return" statement. I 
believe
> that, at the time of the graveyard scene, Voldemort believed Snape 
had
> left him forever and planned to kill him, while planning to punish
> Karkaroff for being too cowardly to return
> graveyard.

Why is everyone convinced that Snape is the DE that has left 
Voldemort forever.  It is just so, so, obvious, so Agatha Chirstie.  
The readers are ment to go - ah-ha, I'm so clever that I managed to 
work out who those three Death Eaters were.  But there is someone 
else who disappears at the end of GoF.  Someone else who is slightly 
suspect, who *would* be fool enough not to turn up when his tattoo 
burned.  Ludo Bagman.
 
 -----------

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> Why should the D-men think Voldemort 
> can deliver, that he's stronger than the Ministry? Why indeed, 
> unless he delivers to them the one thing that the Ministry has so 
> far failed to provide...their lawful prey, the one prisoner who got 
> away.
> 
> "Snape is going after Sirius."

Woah!  I can here the bang from here!  Of course I am part of the 
group that, well I say group - really there is only me, that believes 
that Sirius Black is ever so evil.  Snape gets to take him down and 
thus avenge himself years of teenage torment plus the fact Black 
screwed up his attempts to save the Potters, and Harry sees the adult 
he trusts almost more than Dumbledore turn evil and be brought down 
by his worst enemy.  More on this topic latter.  But I do like this 
bang.

Theresnothingtoit
(who really should get back to her Calculus homework)