TBAY - Snape the Killer

[lucky_kari]

No: HPFGUIDX 46887

Slumping onto the nearest barstool, Wendy puts her face in her hands
for just a moment. "Golly," she mutters under her breath, "I'm not
sure I should be here. I thought I'd be safe enough, but now I'm not
so sure. I mean, I didn't come here for *this*!" 

Eileen nods appreciatively, watching Cindy up on the counter singing,
"Bang Bang Chitty Chitty Bang Bang!" arm in arm with Charis Julia,
whose name is not Julia Charis. (I don't know how I typed that in over
and over.) 

"Welcome to the Bay," says Eileen. "Dangerous, twee, a bit disturbing,
but never boring."

"You see," Wendy says, thoughtfully, "I came in here tonight feeling
very secure in my view of Snape. Oh sure, I don't claim to *know*
exactly what happened in his childhood, or anything like that. But I
felt like I really had a good understanding of what makes him tick.
But now I'm not so sure. I'm feeling a bit confused, really. I've got
all sorts of voices in my head, all competing for my attention. Oh
wait, I'm not supposed to admit that, even in the Wizarding World, am I?"

"That's the Bay for you," says Eileen. "I had such a secure view of
the Potterverse before I discovered HPFGU." 

Wendy continues "On the one hand, I really want to keep refuting this
whole Snape As Killer thing. But there is something very compelling
about the evidence that Elkins pulled out, as well. So I'm going to
try and muddle through this, and hope that you can make some sense of it. 
After all, you did say you thought the list could do with another
debate about all this, right?"

"Wendy, we haven't had a good Snape discussion for just ages. And now
Cindy has got it going again, I'm in seventh heaven. You see, Severus
Snape is one of my favourite characters. Along with Remus Lupin, of
course," Eileen finishes the last drops of butterbeer. "So go ahead!" 

Eileen sits down on a nearby barstool, motioning to George to bring
another drink. She has the feeling this may be a long night. This new
kid looked fairly normal when she first came in, but now she actually
looks a bit dishevelled and, well, manic. That's how it always works
out. They come to the Bay quietly. They lurk. They post non-TBAY
answers. And then suddenly, they're in there with the best of them,
looking as manic and dishevelled as Elkins predicting Hurricane Jo.
She would know herself. It was Cindy, Elkins, and Tabouli who got her
addicted to the Bay a long, long time ago. 

"By the way," Wendy says suddenly, "Did you *really* want to be a
Wendy when you were young? I've always rather disliked being named
after that annoying  twit in Peter Pan."

"Annoying twit?" says Eileen faintly. "She was my childhood heroine."
Wendy looks at her as if she had gone mad. "Of course, I can now see
why you'd find her annoying, but I loved the idea of being mother to
the lost boys. I was such a traditional little girl. Playing with my
dolls."

"And torturing them!" calls Elkins, looking up from the LupiFAQ. Avery
giggles. George shakes his charming auburn head, and hands Eileen a
glass of brandy. 

"Okay. First this Snape is a Killer thing. As morbidly attractive as I
find this idea, I still have a wee problem with it - well, a couple of
wee problems, but I'll start with just one. If Snape had really been
gung-ho for Voldemort, would Dumbledore have allowed him to teach at
Hogwarts all these years? After all, Sirius says in GoF that he doubts
Dumbledore would have hired an ex-Death Eater. Well, obviously Sirius
was wrong about that, but just how far wrong could he have been?
Honestly, do you see Dumbledore allowing someone who truly had the
sort of propensity for evil that we've seen in, for example, Malfoy .
. ." Wendy glances in Avery's direction, then  turns away from him and
lowers her voice before finishing, "Or Avery? Would he have hired
either of them as Hogwart's professors if they'd repented? I just
don't think so."

"Why not?" says Eileen. "I wouldn't. But Dumbledore... Dumbledore
trusts where others wouldn't, to quote Sirius from memory. Sirius is
wrong, we must remember that. "Padfoot Returns" is the Red Herrings
chapter. Sirius doesn't think Snape was a Death Eater. He leads us to
think that Crouch Jr. was innocent. He gives usthat hilarious line
about Crouch Sr. not getting home early enough. (The kid was at
Hogwarts 10 months of the year, Sirius!) So, anyway, Dumbledore has
decided that Severus Snape has repented, and in his vision of the
world, where choice trumps all, I don't see why he would object to
having a repentant murderer on the staff, if he was absolutely certain
he had repented. And we do know that Dumbledore is certain. Check out
the Pensieve chapter. Me, I'm a bit more like Mad-Eye-Moody. Severus
Snape would be teaching at no school of mine. But Dumbledore works in
mysterious ways. But continue."

"I'm willing to ditch my theory that Snape's first murder in the
service of Voldemort upset him so much he switched sides. Maybe Snape
really never did kill ANYONE as a Death Eater, says Wendy.

Wendy notices Avery glaring at her, a muscle above his right eye
twitching alarmingly. Pretending not to see this, she takes a deep
breath and continues, "So we have Snape with a clean slate,
murder-wise anyway. So if Snape really does end up assassinating
Karkaroff, wouldn't it be, well, ironic, or at least interesting or
something, if the first murder he ever commits is in the service of
DUMBLEDORE, and not Voldemort? Does that bang? I can't tell. I'm just
too confused right now."

"CINDY!" shouts Eileen. "DOES THAT BANG?"

Cindy is still too absorbed in her musical routine, which has now
changed to Les Miserables, "HERE I STAND AT THE TURNING OF THE YEARS!
IS THERE ANOTHER WAY TO GO? I MISSED IT TWENTY LONG YEARS AGO! MY LIFE
WAS A WAR THAT COULD NEVER BE WON!"

"Ok. I can't get Cindy's attention. And her bang assessements have
been rather humpty-dumptied, to tell the truth, recently. So, I'll
give my opinion. Yes, it does Bang. But I think it's wildly OOC for
Snape and Dumbledore. I still stand by Charis Julia's belief that
there is no way Snape is going to be killing Karkaroff in Dumbledore's
service. And," she leans closer to Wendy in a conspiriatoral manner,
"I don't know if I should be saying this, but Cindy doesn't like
Snape. She's always launching attacks on him, and imho, this Karkaroff
thing is another Snape sneak attack. But that's neither here nor
there. You were going to talk about Snape's past, weren't you? "After
all, I told you I think it really cheapens Snape's redemption story to
say he never was as 
horrible as those others."

"But that's my point," Wendy says, a bit breathlessly. "It doesn't
cheapen the redemption if he's not yet actually *done* the thing for
which he needs to be redeemed! At this point, canonically, we know of
*nothing* concrete that Snape has done which would necessitate a
redemption, do we? Yes, he was a Death Eater, but we have no details
of crimes he committed."

"A very good point," says Eileen. "I myself think Rowling has
something nasty up her sleeve there, something that is going to make
Harry blanche."

"We've got LOADS more dirt on Sirius Black, for example. We know of a
very specific awful thing he did." Wendy looks around nervously, ready
to run if a pack of rabid Siruis "Prank" Apologists show up with wands
drawn.

"Oh don't be worried," says Eileen. "The only rabid Sirius "Prank"
Apologist in this room is singing Jean Valjean up there on the
counter. She'll hardly notice you."

"Why, for all we know, Snape only joined Voldemort specifically to be
Dumbledore's spy. I don't happen to believe this, but I can't think of
any canon which disproves this." Wendy glances around the pub,
challenging anyone to disagree with her.

"Yes," says Eileen. "It's quite possible."

Wendy clears her throat and continues, "Elkins had some interesting
things to say. Quoting from past posts." She looks at Elkins, who is
once again engrossed in her work. But Wendy's come to far to give up
now, so she walks over to where Elkins is sitting. 

"Excuse me," she asks, her voice sounding more timid than she intended.
 
Without looking up, Elkins says, "Can I help you?"
 
"Erm, yes, actually. I was hoping you would remind us of some of what
you quoted  earlier about Snape?"
 
Taking a *very* deep breath, Elkins stops writing. "Which parts? Let's
see, I  remember the post about how we hear a great deal about
Rowling's statement of intent to show how genuinely *bad* evil is in
these books, and I laud that sentiment. But evilis also *complicated,*
and there are times when I find myself wishing thatRowling would run a
little further with that particular ball."

"I always sort of thought that this was the point JKR was making -
Snape isn't meant to prove that evil is complicated, but that *good* is 
complicated, too. We shouldn't assume someone is evil just because they 
aren't nice or pretty or use proper hygiene."

"Absolutely, Wendy," says Eileen. "I do think that's the first point
to be made about Snape. The PS/SS point. But I think there is more.
Elkins, the rest?"

Elkins sighs. "As far as Snape specifically, I said that I tend to see
him as someone whose *impulses* all lead him in one unerring direction
-- but in a direction that he has chosen to reject on abstract and
purely philosophical grounds. In other words, I see him as a Dark
Wizard. In instinct. In impulse. In inclination. To some extent,
perhaps even in essence."

"Yes, that's the stuff *exactly*," Wendy gushes. She puts on what she
hopes is her most charming smile. "Thanks so much!" Elkins shakes her
head and goes back to writing. 

Wendy turns back to Eileen, looking somewhat pale but rather excited,
too. "Okay. I'm really thinking about this one. I could *perhaps* be
converted to this school of thought about Snape. But I'm not converted
*yet*. If you really want me to buy into this, I'm going to need some
more evidence. After all, it pretty much blows away my whole concept
of the man I love most in the whole Potterverse." Eileen becomes a bit
alarmed as Wendy continues,  muttering mostly to herself, "But heck,
if I become disollusioned about Snape, I've always got Remus to fall
back upon. Unless he turns out to be evil."

"Have you ever heard of LYCANTHROPE, Wendy?" asks Eileen. "It's a
nasty little TBAY organization devoted to proving Lupin is evil.
They've got loads of proof too. Like the fact that Lupin offers Harry
candy when he's a stranger."
 
"Well, I suppose," says Wendy disconcertedly. "I could just decide to
be evil, too. And if I do *that* then it's open season on Lucius. Oh
YES!" 

"Lucius," says Eileen with a smile, "Is at loose on the bay. Trying to
hunt down Elkins, I believe. Met him once in the basement of the Canon
Museum. So, if you really want an introduction..."

Wendy looks up suddenly, and smiles nervously. "Erm, nevermind all
that. Not important." She smiles brightly. "Snape. But is there some
eternal law of the universe that says  that cruel equals evil? Are
there not charming villains?"

"Murderers who play Bach," mutters Eileen.

"I'm sorry?" asks Wendy.

"Back when we had our last big Snape discussion, there was a lot of
talk about a German saying, "In my country, murderers play Bach."
Elkins, would you mind giving your spin on that?"

"I am quite busy with the plot-hole-that-must-not-be-named," says
Elkins, "Oh all right. Here you are. Message 34911

________________________________________________________________

I meant something more along the lines of what
Susanna/Pigwidgeon37 was getting at, when she donated that marvellous
German saying:

"In my country, a lot of murderers play Bach."

I have no problem with the portrayal of V's stance as Just Plain Evil.
How many nice things can you think to say, after all, about genocide
and gratuitous torture? I do have some problems, however, with the
portrayal of every single one of V's followers as not only "just
plain evil," but also as utterly lacking in any redeeming qualities,
or likeable characteristics. Leaving aside for the moment the
obvious philosophical objections, I also find it just plain
*boring.* Shades of grey make for interesting reading. Noble Heroes
vs. Totally Worthless Evil Villains is just kind of a yawn, IMO.

Of *course* evil is bad. That's tautological. But the nice old guy
who lives next door and helps you jump-start your car on cold winter
mornings sometimes turns out to have been in the SS, and the person
who called the ambulance when you had your stroke and then stayed with
you and held your hand until the paramedics arrived turns out to be a
Klan member, and the professional torturer goes home at the end of
the day and agonizes over his kid's poor math grades. That's what
makes evil complicated. And that's also what makes it *scary.*

And for what it's worth (and to get back to the canon), I do think
that Rowling did some very nice work with that in GoF. I liked the
crowd of drunken revellers at the QWC, whose numbers *grow* as they
parade their way through the campground indulging in their spot of
muggle-torture. Those people weren't all Death Eaters, not by a long
shot. I liked the hissing jeering mob at the Pensieve trial. For
that matter, I also liked it when the twins hissed at Malcolm
Baddock, and I loved it when Harry started fantasizing, in rather
explicit detail, about exactly what it might be like to use the
Cruciatus Curse on his least-favorite professor. And, naturally, I
always like Snape.

*Those* were the sorts of things I was referring to, when I said that
I wished that Rowling would "run a little further with that
particular ball." And I actually *do* think it not unlikely that she
will, in future volumes, go even further in that direction, thus
making the notion of somewhat more 3D villain characters than we've
seen so far not an altogether subversive suggestion. The books have
certainly been heading in that direction; by volume six or so, we
might even get a few players of Bach who are *not* (as Snape is)
working for the forces of Good.

I certainly *hope* so, at any rate.

_________________________________________________________

"Does that satisfy you?" asks Elkins.

"No, when are you going to write that Crouch post?" spits out Eileen.

Wendy rolls her eyes. "Elkins, I think that was extremely satisfying,"
she says, kicking Eileen in the shins. "That illusrates exactly what I
was talking about. Anyway, back to Snape. Of course, I guess the fact
that Snape really was a Death Eater could possibly be used as proof
that Snape was, at some point, evil." Wendy's lips twist into
something that might pass for a smile. "Or maybe not . . .

"You see, I have this whole scenario in mind as to why Snape joined
the Death Eaters in the first place. And some of it is a bit, er,
*adult* in nature. Which makes me wonder what this sort of backstory
would be doing in books which are shelved in the children's section,
but that's not my problem."

Eileen coughs. "Well, the question is what is the book doing in the
children's section in the first place. Have you ever heard about
Perversion in the Graveyard? Message 40405. And half the list seems
convinced that Karkaroff was sexually exploiting Snape, so adding
Voldemort to the mix won't... errr... upset anyone that much,
especially as "Perversion in the Graveyard Voldemort..."
 
"Without going into all the gory details," interrupts Wendy. "Let's
just say that Snape was, for whatever reason, in the market for a
substitute father figure and was therefore susceptible to Voldemort's
charisma. And Voldemort, if we give him credit for being a *real* evil
overlord, and not just a plot device, might have been inclined to take
advantage of young Severus in a very specific way. Please don't tell
me I have to actually speak aloud what I'm getting at."

"Not with this bunch," says George. 

"I don't have any problem with the idea," says Eileen. "Not my cup of
tea, really, but other than that..."
 
"Would teenage Snape have had the ability to defend himself against
the certiainly very forceful attentions of this older man?"

"No. But don't we face that question however we take our Snape?" asks
Eileen. "Elkins once posted that she wondered how her life would have
turned out if she had been approached by a Dark Wizard at the age of
sixteen. Whether Voldemort was sexually preying on Snape or not, he
was preying on Snape. And Avery. And Rosier. And Wilkes. And Mr.
Lestrange. And even Mrs. Lestrange of the shining hair, the
heavy-lidded eyes, and the fanatical spotlight-hogging. I don't see
how this would make Snape less a killer, less a DE."

"Wait a second," said Wendy, "what do you think of the theory that
Voldemort is fond of Snape, really, and therefore will believe he's
still a Death Eater."

"I'm inclined to subscribe to it," says Eileen. "There is a canon
precedent. "Lucius, my slippery friend." Voldemort obviously is fond
of some of the DEs. Not Avery, though. Avery seems to have got on his
nerves."

"Thankyou," says Wendy, sittng back on her barstool. "Well?" she says
to Eileen, "What do you think of killer Snape?" Turning to George, she
says confidently, "Bloody Mary, please. Which reminds me, did I
mention that I think it's highly likely that Snape might  just
possibly be a vampire?"

Eileen chokes. "You'd want to talk to Pippin about that one," she
says. "George, another glass of brandy."

"You're sure drinking a lot of brandy," points out Wendy. 

"Yes, do you know what the significance of brandy is? You see, TBAY
brandy is different than real world brandy. Cindy puts something in it
that turns the most staid, sycophantish, and bleeding heart theorizers
into bloodythirsty fanatics. FEATHERBOAS, we call ourselves. (Foaming
Enthusiasts of Ambush, Torture, and Hostility, Embracing Really
Bloodthirsty Operations and Savagery.) Cindy founded the organization.
The point is I want blood on Snape's hands. You said earlier that you
could *perhaps* be converted. So, I'll give it a shot. Elkins!"

Elkins lifted up her head wearily. "Evidence for Snape's taste for
physical violence, Eileen? I'll warn you that no-one seemed to liked
this one, except you, but here you are. Message 35360.
_____________________________________________________________

The fact that he *does* indulge himself in his taste for verbal and
psychological cruelty every chance he gets, while never engaging in
the slightest bit of unwarranted (or at least, as you point out,
*uninvited*) physical violence, is my main reason, I think, for
suspecting that he genuinely does have a taste for the latter.

As I see it, Snape is somebody who works very hard at trying to do
the right thing, trying not to descend into whatever it is that he
fears that he once was. The fact that he shows not even the slightest
sign of *trying* to restrain himself when it comes to psychological
sadism indicates to my mind that he really doesn't think that sort of
thing very important. To his mind, it doesn't count. He's allowed
to indulge himself in that way, because that's not "real" cruelty,
not "real" Darkness.

Which to my mind begs the question of what Snape *would* consider
"real." What are the things that he would on some level like to be
doing, or that he once enjoyed, but that he will never again allow
himself to do?

In short, I certainly agree with you that Snape makes a qualitative
distinction between mental violence and physical violence. I would
say that he considers the former acceptable, and the latter
unacceptable. But given what we know of his past, and given how
readily and unhesitatingly -- and even *gleefully* -- he indulges
himself in the former, my strong suspicion is that the latter is
something that he once did enjoy, and that he fears he might still
enjoy, even while believing it to be utterly morally unacceptable.
__________________________________________________________________

"So there you are," says Eileen.

"Wait a second," says Elkins. "Don't misrepresent me. I also said in
the same post: "But at any rate, as I said before, it's not really all
that important to me whether or not Severus Snape has an unfortunate
taste for real live sadism. I remain convinced that he does, but
should it turn out that he never really cared for it at all, that
would necessitate only a very minor revision of my reading of the
character. And honestly, I'm hoping that we never find out one way or
the other.
I'm not prepared for the series to get quite *that* dark. I'd really
just rather not go there at all, to tell you the truth."
"Call yourself a FEATHERBOA?" shouts Cindy from across the room. 

"So, all right," says Eileen. "You can choose, Wendy, between sadist
and non-sadist Snape. I like the first because it makes him so much
more interesting, so compelling. To go back to what Elkins said in the
first place, his instincts go all one way, and his behaviour go the
other. Now, that's heroism. That's courage. That's my Severus Snape!"

"Well, I'm not convinced," says Wendy. "That he was ever THAT bad in
the first place. Where's the canon?"

"Textually," says Eileen. "There isn't any. Metatextually. That's
another story. You see... Elkins?"

"Message 35530," says Elkins. "A Credo for George."

George shudders. "A terrible day," he said. "The day Elkins locked me
into a cabin with her, sat me down, and made me commit. I still get
chills thinking about that."

"Because George -- to put it bluntly -- is a slut," says Elkins
quoting herself in Message 35530 with enjoyment. "Anyway, if you want
to know where we're coming from, read that message and the follow ups.
Message 35533 is very interesting indeed. Cindy gets bored with George
and writes, "Now that I think about it, I am going to wrap up all of
my theories into one gigantic mega-theory, a theory substantial enough
to swallow the entire Potterverse: The Big Bang Theory." Elkins smirks.
 "Now I really must get back to work. Eileen, explain the rest."

"Very well," says Eileen brightly. "The point about Snape is that he's
the only example so far in the books of Dumbledores, "It's your
choices, Harry..." line. Everyone else is either good or bad, an in
almost every case we've seen, it was determined for them in their
teens, by their House, their family background etc. (Where are all the
virtuous Slytherins, may I ask you?) This something almost Calvinistic
going on here. And then we have Snape. (And Peter Pettigrew, on the
flip side of things, but that's another story.) 

If we say Snape was never as bad as the rest of them, we lose the
power of his character. The idea that yes, you can be ever-so-evil and
then... It's all about... It's all about Redemption!" <glares down Cindy>

Not only is it more powerful that way. I have some evidence too that
Rowling means it that way. It's the MWPP-L parallel. Peter Pettigrew
going over from the side of good to evil, by betraying his friends.
Severus Snape, going over from the side of evil to good, by betraying
his friends. 

And otherwise, otherwise, we have a universe where Snape only is
redeeemed because he always was better than the others, intrinsic
worth and all," 

Eileen chokes up, and throws herself into Avery's arms, burying her
head in his shoulder. He pats her head awkwardly, in best Ron Weasley
fashion.

Eileen