Assassin!Snape and Karkaroff's Big Mistake

[ats_fhc3]

No: HPFGUIDX 46933

A few general comments: First, I have been having fun, and I, too, 
am "dead chuffed" to be deemed important enough to be mentioned in a 
TBAY. I however, doubt my TBAY abilities and continue to reply in 
the normal fashio.
Next comment: My view of Snape has changed in the past few days. He 
is STILL my favorite HP character, though. He's just become a lot 
darker since then. I also don't get the yellow flags thing, but... 
Okie, here we go:

Now, I am of the opinion that Snape DID do horrible things as a DE. 
I also think that he CHOOSE to become a DE. I have seen fanon 
examples of Snape being the "Potions Man", or being forced to be a 
DE. However, as someone kindly pointed out (and I'm too lazy to 
search), Snape does seem to be fond of mentally torturing his 
students, and it might clue readers in to the fact that he may have 
been fond of physical torture. However, it has also been pointed out 
that Snape, in the past four years, when given the chance to do 
something horrifying like feed Sirius and Lupin to Dementors, 
he...doesn't. However, that could tie in with the theory that he is 
afraid he might revert to his old ways. 

CIndy said:
"I was saying that Snape would have to do something Big to get back 
into Dumbledore's good graces, and you were saying that Dumbledore 
would trust Snape without it."    

Dumbledore has hired a half-giant, a werewolf, a Dark wizard 
(information which was unknown at the time), a paranoid ex-Auror who 
turned one of the students into a ferret, and an idiot. Granted, a 
lot of these people have good reasons to be trusted (or not, in 
Quirrel's case...and perhaps Lockhart's), but, as Moody 
said, "Dumbledore believes in giving second chances."  Maybe just 
the fact that Snape turned is enough for Dumbledore to believe him, 
and to trust him. That, and Dumbledore knows WHEN to give people 
second chances. Would he give Voldemort a second chance?

Now about DD's comment: "That is between Prf. Snape and myself". 
Well, DD held off on telling Harry the circumstances of his father's 
heroic act of saving Snape's life, and he has held off on telling 
Harry why V-Mort wanted to kill him. That, and this is SNAPE. Why 
would DD want to give away personal information about one of Harry's 
TEACHERS? 

Pippin said:
"I think Snape went to offer his services as a spy to Voldemort and 
was accepted at the end of GoF, after a Crucio or two."

then Judy added
"Voldemort, being an Evil Overlord and all, doesn't want to believe 
that Snape actually was spying on him and is 
quite prepared to take Snape's word for it.  Evil Overlords are just 
like that sometimes."

This is where my opinions have changed. I now think that Snape did 
go back to V-Mort. However, I think he got more than a Crucio or 
two. I can think of a few excuses for the quick return and how he 
got away with a few minor things, but that's a whole 'nother can of 
worms. 
 
Cindy:
"Voldemort *knows* Snape betrayed him and *knows* that Snape has 
been working with Dumbledore for over a decade, is just going to 
assume that Snape can be trusted back in Voldemort's inner circle?"

Ahh, but we don't know who exactly the six missing DE are. And, as 
someone else has pointed out (again, too lazy to search), it's been 
set up too perfectly. I think that Snape will find a way to get back 
into V-Mort's good graces, but it will take a lot of pain and 
screaming in agony on his part.

Cindy again:
"h, I'm not buying that.  See, the Evil Overlord 
character has to make some mistakes so that the hero can win, but 
the author can't take it too far.  The readers will never accept 
Sucker!Voldemort.  I mean, what does canon tell us about DEs who 
actually *do* betray Voldemort? <snip canon examples> But you guys 
think DEs who actively *betray* Voldemort also get off with 
Cruciatus and a really wicked scolding?  No way."

But the point is, we DON'T know what V-Mort would do with a 
turncoat, because no HAS betrayed V-Mort. We don't know how V-Mort 
will react. We can assume, but we don't know for sure. Granted, the 
evidence is pretty strong for lots and lots of pain, but maybe 
this'll be different. No, I still say Snape is going to have to do 
something huge 
to bring Voldemort around."

I somewhat wrote (and somehow am made to sound younger than I am):
Acire charged forward out of the crowd, and her words tumbled forth 
in a rush.  "I'm new here, but I just have to say something.  This 
idea that Dumbledore orders Karkaroff's murder is way off. 
Dumbledore is not the type of person to have other people do his 
dirty work."

Then Wendy: 
"Yeah, that's true," said Wendy.  "I just don't see Dumbledore 
sending Snape off to murder someone, even someone like Karkaroff.  
Not pre-meditated murder, even for the common good."

At last, Cindy:
"Oh, is *that* the problem?" Cindy replied easily.  "I expected 
people to start fighting over paddles emblazoned with their favorite 
Assassin!Snape variant.  But no.  All I'm hearing are objections.  
`Snape wouldn't do such a thing – he was a *nice* DE.'  

::falls over laughing:: I don't think there's any such thing as 
a "nice DE", and I LOVE Snape.

'Dumbledore wouldn't do such a thing – he's such a *nice* 
headmaster.'

I have a minor thing against DD. He's a little odd. I can't quite 
put my finger on it, though.

"What is it going to take to talk you all into this?"

::deadpan:: An Imperious curse. And I've forgotten what 'this' is. 
Oh, killing Karkaroff.

Cindy again: 
"First of all, we already know that Dumbledore will have others do 
his dirty work.  Oh, he has no problem with that idea at all.  
Dumbledore sent a wand-less Hagrid to recover Harry from Godric's 
Hollow, even though the place could have been swarming with 
murderous DEs.  Dumbledore sent Hagrid to the Giants, and I think we 
all know how that little mission is going to turn out.  Dumbledore 
let the trio face barriers like Devil's Snare and a vicious Three-
Headed dog to safeguard the Stone.  But the clearest example of all 
is how Dumbledore told Hermione and Harry to use the Timeturner 
rather than use it to do the deed himself."

Ready? Okay, in order: DD knew that if V-Mort had been somewhat 
defeated, DEs would scatter. What better envoy to send to giants 
than two half-giants? DD set it up so that Harry could do it to show 
something to Harry about how powerful he was, and that he was not 
just a normal wizard, if there is such a thing. DD could not have 
used the TT himself, as it would be too noticeable, and Harry was 
personally involved with the situation. If Ron had been conscious 
and uninjured, I'm sure DD would have sent him along, as well. 
Sirius escaping was more personal to Harry because Sirius was his 
godfather. And DD was once again proving that he could rely on Harry 
to do such things himself, and to see his power at doing things.
 
back to Cindy:
"Were these things risky?  Yes, although some were more risky than 
others.  But we know for an absolute fact that Hermione and Harry 
were at risk when they used the Timeturner -- had they blown it, 
they might have attacked themselves."

DD trusted Harry and Hermione to use the TT. He knew that Hermione 
had enough knowledge of the TT's workings to keep Harry in line, and 
he knew that Harry had enough sense to figure out the way things 
could be done to direct Hermione. Hermione constantly repeats that 
they can't be seen, and pulls Harry away from positions where there 
is danger of them being seen.

Cindy:
<snip canon about why DD would want Karkaroff dead> 
"Yup, it was the spit", Cindy said.  "You hawk one at a man's feet, 
and he is not inclined to be charitable with you.  From that point 
forward, he's not going to go out of his way to find a way to spare 
you.  I say Karkaroff made himself expendable when he let loose with 
that loogie.  

Now don't get me wrong.  Dumbledore wouldn't allow Karkaroff to be 
killed out of revenge over a bit of phlegm.  That *would* be out of 
character.  Hagrid's retaliation against Karkaroff happens for a 
reason, though:  JKR wants to make crystal clear that what Karkaroff 
did was *awful* -- even by wizarding world standards.  Karkaroff's 
little error in judgment there made Dumbledore see that Karkaroff 
would *never* be on Dumbledore's team."

See, but that's pretty much the only thing that Karakaroff does: 
spit at DD's feet, tell him he's unfair. None of that is actually 
dark, as in dark wizard dark. However, in looking at DD's reactions 
to all of Karakaroff's...comments, is really none at all. During the 
scene directly after Harry's name comes out of the GoF, DD never 
directly speaks to Karkaroff, except to offer both him and Madame 
Maxime a nightcap, whatever that is. We don't know what DD's opinion 
of Karkaroff, because we never get a description of DD's face or 
voice in the two times he DOES speak directly to Karkaroff. DD 
doesn't even react to Karkaroff spitting at his feet. Hagrid does, 
and Hagrid is the ONLY one who does. And we all know Hagrid's 
opinion of DD: "Professor Dumbledore, sir."

Cindy:
"And that makes a big difference.  Look at it this way.  If Snape 
approaches Voldemort and does his very best song and dance to deny 
being Dumbledore's spy, it might work.  It also might *not* work.  
And if it doesn't work, then Snape isn't getting out of Voldemort's 
lair alive, is he?  So is there anyone in this room who is 100% sure 
that if Snape showed up, Voldemort would definitely let him live?"
 
::meets Cindy's gaze:: Even Sirius gives credit for Snape 
cunningness to keep himself out of trouble. And if DD and Snape 
planned this beforehand, as they most certainly did, they would have 
come up with an excuse smart enough for Snape to at least live. He 
may have to sacrifice his nerve-endings, but he's tough guy.
 
"If there's one thing you can count on from an Evil Overlord, it's 
unpredictability."  

Do you subscibe to MAGIC DISHWASHER? I'm forgetting who does.

"So when Dumbledore authorized Snape to kill Karkaroff to save 
Snape's hide, Dumbledore is doing the right thing.  Karkaroff is a 
dead man anyway.  At least this way, Karkaroff's death will 
accomplish two positive things –- the infiltration of Voldemort's 
inner circle and the survival of Severus Snape.  Forced to choose 
between Snape's life or Karkaroff's, Dumbledore will pick Snape 
every time."

Well, why exactly would V-Mort welcome Snape back for that again? 
Who's to say he wouldn't just go "Good job, one less thing I have to 
do, Avada Kedavra Snape?"

<snip more canon, because this post is long enough as it is>
"Why, what do you make of *that!*" Cindy cried, jabbing her index 
finger at Faith.  "Dumbledore and Snape *did* have a conversation 
about Karkaroff, didn't they?  A conversation important enough to 
make it into the Pensieve.  A conversation that also involved the 
Dark Mark.  Now, if the only thing they talked about in that 
conversation was Voldemort's imminent return, there was no reason at 
all to bring Karkaroff into it, was there?"

Well, Karkaroff and Snape ARE the only 2 ex-DEs on the premises. 
Furthur evidence. Snape's not seeing things, nor did the Ivory soap 
he uses react with his skin. 

"Not only that, what is up with Dumbledore's statement that he could 
have made the connection without assistance?  What connection could 
he possibly be talking about there?  That dialogue is highly 
suspicious, don't you think?  Surely Dumbledore doesn't mean he 
could have connected Snape's Dark Mark with Voldemort's return if 
Snape kept quiet about the Mark getting stronger.  No, Dumbledore 
means that he could have made the connection between Snape and 
Karkaroff all by himself.  And that connection is that Dumbledore is 
willing to sacrifice Karkaroff to save Snape."

That's shooting pretty far, don't you think? Dumbledore's commment 
is on Snape's Dark Mark. Well, probably the Dark Mark in general. 
I'm sure Snape would have noticed the Dark Mark disappearing when V-
Mort turned vapor. I'm sure he would have told DD that the mark went 
away. So DD is smart enough to figure out that the Mark would return 
if V-Mort returned. He knew V-Mort was getting stronger, and he 
didn't need to be told that the Marks were coming back. 

I'm hanging onto my flag, thank you. I don't understand the purpose 
of it yet, so it'll probably go in my desk drawer with my HP books, 
but I'm hanging on to it.

-Acire, who stopped in the middle of her reply to register for 
classes, and is sorry that this is so danged long.