TBAY: Disproving MD, what Quirrellmort knew

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 47099

Abigail stares at the smoking gauntlet which Melody has tossed 
in front of her.

>>"If, in fact, we find out in future books that Dumbledore has not 
beenscheming and planning and it is proven that he in fact has 
not helped bring about the rebodiment of Voldemort, then MD is 
disproven and there would be a big party thrown by Marina at the 
tavern I assureyou.  MD's hands are completely tied to the fact 
that Dumbledore is a general of war and that he has made 
aggressive strategic plans to end the war.  Did that answer your 
question?" <<

"Don't move, Abigail," says Pippin. Abigail blinks.  Did Pippin 
appear out of nowhere?  Or had she only been  having a few 
words with Grey Wolf over in the corner? 

"I'll take care of it."

Pippin eyes Bluesqueak and Melody, about to sip from her glass 
of  mysterious ruby red liquid. But for some reason it seems to 
have clotted.

"George!' she calls. "Make me a fresh one, will you?"

"Right-o, Sangria, is it?"

"That's right, love. Put it on my tab." Pippin turns her attention 
back to Melody and Bluesqueak.

"So, you say  that to disprove Dishwasher, we must disprove the 
arbitrary negative assertion that the books don't prove that 
Dumbledore didn't help bring about Voldemort's return? 
Fascinating!

"But nobody *can* do that, you know. Not even JK Rowling. 
Abitrary negatives cannot be disproved. If I say, 'The cat's not in 
the bathtub', you can't disprove it without looking in the bathtub.
At which point the statement is no longer arbitrary."

Pipsqueak shrugs. "The assertions of Magic Dishwasher are not 
arbitrary, they are based on knowledge. As Melody says, 
Dumbledore is a general of war. We can make certain 
assertions based on our knowledge of generals, spies, and 
Dumbledore's capabilities."

"Sorry, but proving that Dumbledore *could* have done 
something doesn't mean you've proved that he *did.* If you want 
us to accept your assertions, you're going to have to assume the 
burden of proof.  And once you get past the obvious, that 
Dumbledore had spies and so did Voldemort, there's very little 
specific evidence and an awful  lot of generalizing. And going on 
your, er,  general knowledge of generals is pretty shaky, because 
Dumbledore's hardly a typical case."

" Real World generals and spymasters behave the way they do 
because they are appointed to their positions by people like 
Fudge. If they start developing  inconvenient moral reservations  
then they are removed from office. Fudge is threatening to do just 
that, if you remember. But we've seen that the threat is hollow.  
Nothing Fudge can do is going to displace Dumbledore as far 
as the Old Crowd is concerned.

"So Dumbledore is at liberty to reject the quasi-Utilitarian ethic 
which Grey Wolf ascribes to him, no matter how popular it is 
among politicians, bureaucrats and their employees. 

"Utilitarianism? I don't recall Grey Wolf using that term," says 
Pipsqueak.

"Well, Utilitarianism is an ethical theory which says that all action 
should be directed toward achieving the greatest happiness for 
the greatest number of people.  We can make a pretty good 
argument that  Dumbledore is not a Utilitarian, by the way. He 
teaches Harry that in many cases what would make people 
happiest would actually be bad for them. However, Grey Wolf 
seems to be saying that what Dumbledore seeks is to bring 
about the greatest *good*  for the greatest number. As an ethical 
theory, that's tautological. We can't tell whether an action is good 
or bad by weighing it against the theory, because the theory 
doesn't tell us what goodness is. 

"But Dishwasher!Dumbledore's actions are moral," says 
Pip!Squeak, "because they are directed at the Downfall of 
Voldemort."

"Oh well," says Pippin, "If you want to be relatavistic--"

>>>""I think it's always been our detractors who regard 
Dishwasher!Dumbledore as morally relativist, actually," says the 
Pipsqueak,   "I think that to be making pragmatic decisions, hard 
choices, assessments that these particular means are justified 
by this particular end, Dumbledore would need a very solid 
moral core indeed."<<<

"But that's relativism in a nutshell," says Pippin. " 'Relatavism: a 
theory that conceptions of truth and moral values are not 
absolute but are relative to the persons or groups holding them.'  
Dishwasher!Dumbledore has allowed or arranged Voldemort's 
return, which is hardly an absolute good, but is good only 
because Dumbledore, judging by the standards of his society, 
thinks it would be. Pettigrew did the same thing, but because he 
had no social good in mind, it was  evil. "

"And you know, I think you are going to have to choose between 
Spy!Snape and Dishwasher!Snape. Because if Dishwasher 
holds, then Voldmort has lots of other faithful DE's, whom he can 
insert into Hogwarts as easily as he did young Barty. If Snape 
shows up, Dishwasher!Voldemort won't need to send him back 
to Hogwarts to spy on Dumbledore. Especially not if Snape 
brought Dumbledore' s head with him. He might see fit to keep 
Snape around for some other reason, to work on potions or 
because," Pippin pauses here and looks significantly at Wendy, 
"Snape gives good hem.

"But Snape the Spy is toast. Surplus to requirements. Kill the 
spare!"

"But even if you don't believe in Dishwasher! Dumbledore, Snape 
the spy is toast." says another voice. Barb, suprised to find her 
self a in a TBAY scenario, looks around in wonder  (post 46968)

>> we mustn't forget that Voldemort was possessing Quirrell's 
body during Harry's first year, and Snape and Quirrell had 
numerous run-ins. Voldemort knew, whenhe was in Quirrell's 
body, that Snape was on Dumbledore's side and trying to 
prevent Quirrell from getting the stone. He was there for every 
encounter between the two professors, and he was aware (as 
Quirrell was) that Snape was using a counter-jinx to save Harry 
during the Quidditch match."<<

"Ah," says Pippin, but *Quirrell* never told Snape that he was 
serving Voldemort."

"Ignorance is a lame excuse," snaps Barb. "I can't see Voldemort 
falling for it."

"Oh, Snape has a much better excuse than that. He doesn't need 
to say that he thought Quirrell was trying to get the Stone for 
himself.  I see it this way --

A cloudy haze appears in the middle of the room, and everyone 
scoots out of the way as the semi-transparent figures of Severus 
Snape and Lord Voldemort appear in the center of it. Snape 
grovels at Voldemort's feet:

'My Lord, had you but revealed yourself to me, had I but known, I 
would have done all that I could to aid you. --"

'I lose patience, Severus. Surely you didn't believe that  a young, 
inexperienced wizard like Quirrell could have broken into 
Gringotts or hexed a Nimbus 2000 all by himself."

"Of course not, my Lord. Only a very powerful wizard could have 
done such things. Only you--and one other. He has set tests for 
me before. "

Voldemort manages to look skeptical, though this is difficult 
without eyebrows. "You thought *Dumbledore* would turn a troll 
loose.  In his own school?"

"But no one was harmed, my Lord. Not even the Mudblood girl.  
Far easier to believe that the beast was  charmed than that three 
first-years could defeat  a wild Mountain Troll without so much as 
a scratch. It did occur to me that the giant canine guarding the 
Stone was also a sham, but--" Snape glances down at his leg, "it 
turned out to be a somewhat more formidable foe. My Lord, I beg 
you to believe me. If I could have but penetrated the Stone's 
defences, I would have brought it to you myself, whatever the 
danger. But alas! it was held within a Mirror and as you know--"

"Quite, Severus. A little joke of Dumbledore's, that. Very amusing. 
Still, that does not explain your eagerness to defend Harry 
Potter."

"But my Lord, if it was a test...I couldn't very well let Dumbledore 
think I was prepared to let Potter die, now could I? "

"You think Dumbledore would risk precious Potter's life and 
subject him to Dark Magic simply to prove your loyalty?"

"Quirrell used Dark Magic on a broom, not on Potter himself. And 
if it were but a test...I need hardly tell you that a fall from a 
broomstick wouldn't ordinarily be fatal. Not to one of us. It 
wouldn't be enough to kill Longbottom, much less Potter 
himself."

"I had no choice, my Lord, but to do as I did. Not if I was to 
remain at Hogwarts. How I wish that I could have found a way to 
leave it. You don't know how much I longed to seek for  for you 
myself!  But that would have been folly, for though Dumbledore 
trusts me, the Aurors do not. I did not think you would wish me to 
lead them to you. I have said enough. Do as you will."

Pippin