[HPforGrownups] Re: CoS Theories

[GulPlum]

No: HPFGUIDX 47234

I really don't have time for this post, but I shall attempt to be brief, 
before I fall back even further than I already am in catching up with my 
backlog of posts. This post might therefore appear to be brusque or even 
rude, but I want to make it clear that I mean no offence. I mean only to be 
short.

I'm aware that this post starts of with a lot of stuff about movie casting 
which is technically off-topic for this list, but on-topic points related 
thereto will follow. I've also tried to address similar points made by 
Steve (bboy_mn) and Jodel without quoting their posts.

At 16:00 26/11/02 +0000, Indigo wrote:

<snip>

><Snape, Dumbledore, Hagrid casting comments>

Canonical, shmanonical. Those three actors were JKR's own choice for those 
parts and it was partially her own insistence which convinced Coltrane at 
least to accept the role. The only clue we have as to Snape's age (and 
various other characters' by extension) is JKR's statement in an interview. 
There is no specific indication in the books.

As for Hagrid, perhaps you have more detailed information, but I don't have 
a clue about (half-)giant metabolism and rate of aging.

In any case, we were talking about the casting of child/adolescent roles.

>All of the Hogwarts pupils are played
> > by actors within a couple of years of their characters' ages (and
> > believably so). On the face of it, there is absolutely no reason
>for the production team to depart from that policy.
>
>No reason to your mind for the production team to depart from typical
>and acceptable Hollywood casting convention.

Sorry, but the HP production team quite clearly have *NOT* been applying 
typical
Hollywood casting conventions. If they did, we'd have had Haley Joel Osment 
as Harry, as was widely touted within the industry a couple of years ago, 
and Lord knows what other casting monstrosities (not that I have anything 
against Osment  as an actor).

>Riddle was a Hogwart's
>pupil at the time of 50 years ago. But the memory of Riddle was being
>influenced by the at least 66-year-old mind of Voldemort -- which, as
>I said [but was snipped] is a good reason for him to have looking
>older than sixteen.

I forgot to ask this last time around (I was indeed too generous with my 
trimming). Could you please provide ANY canonical basis for that statement? 
The diary was "written" when Riddle was 16. He did not know of his older 
self's fate until Ginny told him about it. In what way and by what 
mechanism was the older Voldemort to influence the diary or Diary!Riddle?

>That said, though?  It's also possible that he did look sixteen to
>the casting people.  I don't know where you're from, but I personally
>have seen a goodly number of thirteen year olds who can pass for
>eighteen, and sixteen year olds who can pass for over 21 without
>getting carded. I went to school with several of the latter type,
>actually.

Oh, I'm sure the casting folk originally thought he looked younger - 
Christian Coulson certainly appeared younger in the publicity photo which 
was widely published at the time of his casting, and I'm sure that JKR gave 
her approval based on that photo. However, none of the non-book-reading 
people I've spoken to who have seen the film cottoned on that he was meant 
to be sixteen or thought he looked that way.

Sure, I know several sixteen year-olds who look like they're much older  (I 
wasn't one of them, but my brother was), but the whole plot resolution 
relies on his being visibly sixteen. The fact that the movie script left 
only one casual reference to it in the middle of Riddle's lengthy 
exposition scene did not help matters at all. In the quote from the book 
which I supplied previously, even 12 (almost 13) year-old Harry saw Riddle 
as clearly being not a day older than sixteen; the casting should have been 
utterly clear and unambiguous (going for a "young" sixteen rather than an 
"old" sixteen if necessary to make the point) and it was not.

It is precisely that *all* the other parts were so exactingly cast and true 
to life that started me thinking about why the casting of such a pivotal 
role would be seemingly botched in this fashion. I therefore concluded that 
the casting of an adult actor must have been deliberate, as it was in the 
case of Myrtle - she has to return for GoF in 2-3 years' time, yet not look 
2-3 years older. (I also believe that we'll see more of Myrtle in books to 
come, but that's a different subject.)

<snip>

>Harry did show mercy to Pettigrew, and regretted doing so when
>Pettigrew escaped.
>
>Harry was willing to show no mercy to Black until he heard sufficient
>evidence to trust him otherwise.
>
>Harry might be willing to show mercy to Voldemort, but considering
>Harry has grown angrier about the death of his parents as he has
>grown older, and angrier about Voldemort's continued attempts to kill
>him -- I don't think Harry is going to remain merciful forever.

Err... Where have I said or implied that Voldemort's "regression" would be 
in any way born of mercy on Harry's part? Harry will aim to destroy Lord 
Voldemort. He will not want to spare him. We've had several instances of 
quite bizarre and extraordinary magical effects happening in specific 
circumstances (Harry's imperviousness to AK aged 15 months and its creation 
of Vapourmort; Priori Incantantem, etc); Voldemort has now been reborn in a 
new(ish) body thanks, in part, to Harry's blood, so all bets are off as to 
what might happen if some as yet unknown to us incantantion is used in some 
unique circumstances by one or the other of them during a confrontation.

The proliferation of phoenix imagery was one of the things which started me 
on the road to thinking about ending the series with a "regressed" and 
powerless Riddle a long time ago; the movie casting made me think about it 
some more and arrive at a conclusion as to what age Riddle would come out 
at the other side.

>I'm disinclined to think that a memory charm above and beyond the
>level of Lockhart's facility for them, being placed on a young
>Riddle/Voldemort is something anyone would be willing to trust to.
>[As an example of some way to change Riddle's personality entirely.]
>Not after all the death Voldemort has caused.

Where have I said anything about Memory Charms or changing Riddle's 
personality? We are currently without any basis whatsoever on which to 
prejudge the result of a unique confrontation in unique circumstances. My 
own speculation is that, just as the rebounded AK resulted in Voldemort's 
loss of physical form and reduction of his power, the final confrontation 
will result in his return to a Muggle younger self. His memory will not 
need changing. Not being aware of the trouble he has caused would be a 
major anti-climax. The fact that he is unable to cause any more is where 
the "justice" comes in.

>The Ministry of Magic lost a number of aurors to Voldemort, to say
>nothing of the UK wizarding population at large who lost friends and
>loved ones.  Voldemort's name became one that was not spoken, and
>even the euphemisms were whispered with awe and fear.  The Ministry
>is unlikely to stand behind such an action to render Voldemort no
>longer a threat.

The Ministry (at present, at least) refuses to believe that Voldemort is 
back anyway. I wouldn't be in the slightest bit surprised if Fudge & Co 
*never* get around to acknowledging his return until, ironically, the end 
of the war when a powerless adolescent Riddle is all that's left of him.

>Voldemort's followers are numerous and ready, willing, and able to
>restore him to power.  All the Death Eaters would have to be defeated
>this time [as they were not when Voldemort was defeated before]  and
>placed in Azkaban, or worse, given the Kiss, to prevent them from
>aiding him.

What's that got to do with anything? Of course his followers will be 
around, and whatever confrontations await us in the remaining three books 
will have to overcome that obstacle anyway. At issue is the final 
confrontation (or rather, the results thereof), which unless JKR throws us 
entirely in a different direction, must  be between Harry and Voldemort 
alone for the series to have closure.