Sociopathic Sirius? (and Paranoid Snape?)

[Judy]

No: HPFGUIDX 47246

Hey, the Sirius Apologists disagree with the Snapefans.  Who would
have expected that? ;-)

 Sirius, Snape, and Sociopathy 

On the topic of whether Sirius has traits of sociopathy, I said:
> The DSM [Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the Amer. Psychiatric
Assoc.]
> definition for APD [antisocial personality disorder / sociopathy]
> leaves out positive traits associated with
> sociopathy, such as being charming, as well as fairly neutral ones
> such as lack of introspection.  

And Marina replied:
>> Well, far be it from me to deny that Sirius is charming. :-)  Nor 
will I attempt to present him as the introspective type.  But (and 
hopefully more knowledgeable people will correct me if I'm full of 
it), I think that the reason these traits get left out of the 
diagnostic criteria is not that they aren't harmful, but that they 
aren't reliably indicative.  Yes, a lot of sociopathic people are 
charming and non-introspective, but so are a lot of non-sociopathic 
people, so you can't really draw conclusions based on that.<<


I'm saying that being charming should be part of the diagnostic
criteria, but only in interaction with the other criteria. In other
words, the constellation of being charming *and* fearless and
impulsive indicates sociopathy, but being charming *without* those
other things is not a sign of sociopathy at all.  The problem with the
DSM (well, one of many, actually) is that its approach to diagnosis is
sort of like those quizes that women's magazines have.  (I can just
see it now, on the cover of Glamour Magazine:  "Are you a sociopath? 
Take our quiz and find out!") This approach says, "If you're fearless,
give yourself a point. If you're charming, give yourself a point."
What I'm saying is, "If you're charming and fearless, give yourself
two points. If you're fearless but not charming, give yourself zero
points. If you're charming but not fearless, give yourself zero
points."  So, the fact that many non-sociopaths are also charming
isn't a problem with including "charm" as part of the diagnostic
criteria, because being charming is only diagnostic when found with a
bunch of other factors. 

(Of course, sociopaths are only charming when they *want* to be. "I've
always been able to charm the people I needed," says Tom Riddle.) 


Penny said:
>we have absolutely zero proof that any of the characters are or are
not introspective.  The books are written from Harry's POV, and while
I think I would say that Harry is a very introspective person, find it
hard to make that argument about any of the other characters given the
POV issues.<

It's true that we can't read the characters' mind, but one can tell a
lot about introspection level by looking at behavior.  Dumbledore, for
example, is highly introspective.  He gets lost in the Pensieve,
hardly remembering that Harry is there, and sits staring at the
ceiling in the Great Hall, deep in contemplation. 

I'd say that Snape is far higher than Sirius in introspection.  But, I
don't mean that he necessarily has more insights into his own
behavior.  Rather, I mean that he is focused on his own thoughts
instead of the external environment.  The original psychological term
for this is "introversion", but in common usage, "introvert" has come
to mean shy -- and Snape isn't shy.  But, he is definitely focused on
his own thoughts; his idea of a good time is contemplating the
shimmering fumes of his simmering cauldrons.  Sirius, on the other
hand, is much more interested in external stimuli.  He wants action. 
He likes socializing and playing jokes.  He's not the type who wants
to spend his time sitting by himself, lost in thought. The
psychological term for this is extroversion.  ("Extroversion" is not a
synonum for being outgoing, although most extroverts do find it boring
to be alone.  By the way, for the Sirius fans out there, solitary
confinement in Azkaban must have been especially hard for an extrovert
like Sirius, and he's making a big sacrifice in hanging around by
himself in a cave, watching over Harry.) 

So, what does this have to do with sociopathy?  Well, one theory of
sociopathy (the one to which I subscribe) is that it's caused by a
combination of two factors: low sympathetic nervous system reactivity,
and low central nervous system reactivity.  Sympathetic nervous system
reactivity means that one doesn't release adrenalin easily, and is
associated with being fearless.  I would say that both Sirius and
Snape have low sympathetic nervous system reactivity, as they are both
rather fearless.  Central nervous system reactivity is basically
another name for the introversion - extroversion dimension. 
Introverts have high central nervous system reactivity; their brains
generate a lot of activity even without external stimuli, so they tend
to get wrapped up in their own thoughts.  Extroverts' brains don't
generate much activity on their own, so they seek out a lot of
external stimuli.  (By the way, central nervous system reactivity is
entirely different from intelligence level; extroverts can be highly
intelligent.) 

Sociopaths have low central nervous system reactivity; they can't be
introverts.  They don't brood.  Snape broods -- you look up "brooding"
in the dictionary, and there's his picture.  So, whatever else Snape
is, he's not a sociopath. 

Instead of saying that Sirius is relatively high in sociopathy, I
could say that he's low in sympathetic nervous system reactivity and
low in central nervous system reactivity.  I could even say that he's
very fearless and highly extroverted -- does that sound better? ;-)  
In terms of whether Sirius is *nice*, I'm one of the people who
suspects he was a something of a bully in his school years.  However,
I don't suscribe to GleefulSadist!Sirius -- I don't think he was ever
like Macnair or Lucius. 


 Sirius and PTSD

As Penny mentioned, I don't subscribe to the theory that Sirius'
behavior in PoA can be explained by PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress
Disorder.)  Symptoms of PTSD usually don't appear until *after* the
trauma is over.  During the crisis, the person's mind is focused on
survival, and the person often thinks, "If only I could get out of
this situation, things would be all right."  It's not until after the
crisis has passed that the full impact hits and the person realizes
that life will never be the same. In PoA, Sirius is on the run,
everyone thinks he's a murderer, he's half-starved, the dementors are
on his trail.  He's still in crisis mode; it's too early for PTSD.  If
he was going to show signs of PTSD, I'd expect them to show up in
GoF.  

I don't believe that a few months in the tropics could undo the damage
caused by 12 years of hell.  Saying that Sirius has recovered by GoF
implies that people can recover quickly from years of trauma, and I
don't think that's true.  Portraying Sirius as recovering so quickly
bothers me because people who've been traumatized in real life are
often told to "just get over it" and are pressured to recover quickly,
even if that just isn't possible.  

Here's a question that I've been meaning to ask Sirius' (many) fans.
Did you like him in PoA?  Or, did you not start to like him until you
read GoF?  I'm wondering if people like him *because* of his actions
in PoA, or *despite* his actions in PoA. 

By the way, I agree with a lot of the "Sirius Apologetics" in message
#47051.  I especially agree that Sirius didn't deserve to be sent to
Azkaban. (Yeah, too bad Snape doesn't realize that.)  I can't buy that
Sirius feels lots of remorse over the Prank, though.  He certainly
doesn't show it in the Shrieking Shack. 


 Snape and Paranoia

Penny said:
>[Snape] sure looks paranoid from where I'm sitting.  <

I'm quite willing to admit that Snape has many flaws.("Vengeful" would
be at the top of the list.)  I hope it's obvious that I'm joking when
I say things like "Of course, we all love Snape, right?"  In fact, I
was surprised (and relieved!) to find so many fellow Snapefans when I
joined HPfGU. However, I just can't see paranoia as one of Snape's
flaws.  If anything, Snape as a teenager was *too* trusting.  I mean
really, what sort of self-respecting paranoiac would go rushing off to
the Tunnel just because an enemy told him how to get in?  (And it
wasn't that he was stupid; even Sirius gives him credit for
cleverness.) As for Snape as an adult, he does tend towards suspicion,
but that seems quite understandable.  A careless double-agent is a
dead double-agent. 


 Snape and Remorse

Penny said:
>I would argue that Snape actually very definitely lacks remorse for
hurting others -- or at least he certainly doesn't allow any remorse
he might be feeling to stop him from abusing his position of power and
knowingly hurting quite a number of the students under his purported
tutelage.  Yeah, I have some strong feelings about Snape's use of his
teacher role, Snape-fans.  :--)   <

I see Snape as consumed by remorse; the clearest evidence is the scene
when Fake!Moody says talks about "stains that won't come off." 
However, even without this scene, Snape pretty much *has* to be full
of remorse.  What, except remorse for what he had done, would lead him
to risk everything and leave the DEs when Voldemort was at the height
of his powers?  And how could Dumbledore possibly trust a former DE
who wasn't remorseful? 

As for Snape's treatment of students, I certainly don't approve of a
teacher acting that way.  A number of explanations for his behavior
have been proposed, including the need to impress the Slytherins of
his opposition to aurors, muggleborns, and Harry.  Even if we can't
explain away his hostile behavior, though, I still don't think that
means he is unable to feel remorse.  I think his hostile behavior in
the classroom shows he lacks *empathy*.  He doesn't know what it would
be like to be a teenage girl teased about her teeth.  He doesn't know
what it would be like to be bumbling at potions.  Snape practically
comes right out and says he's low in empathy: "Don't ask me to fathom
how a werewolf's mind works!"  I'm not convinced he realizes that his
behavior hurts his students.

And, yes, being low in empathy can be a sign of sociopathy, but only
in combination with other factors that Snape doesn't have.  There can
be many reasons for lacking empathy. In Snape's case, it might be his
high level of anger, or it could be that lack of social interaction
has limited his knowledge of other people's experiences. 

I think LowEmpathy!Snape fits well with my theory about why he left
the DEs.  (My theory is that he was in love with Lily, and left when
the Potters were threatened.)  Until someone he cared about was
threatened, he didn't fully realize how evil the DEs were, because he
didn't empathize with their other victims. 

 Voldewar 1 - Between Slytherin and Gryffindor Houses?

I said: 
>> The Prank occured during Voldewar I, a war that was largely
between 
Slytherin House and Gryffindor House<<

And Penny asked:
> Curious: where do you get the perception that Voldemort I was
confined to Hogwarts and to a Gryffindor/Slytherin rivalry in
particular?  My perception has always been that Voldy I was a terrible
time for the entire wizarding world, and included many muggle murders
as well.  <

Well, I think many people outside these two Houses were killed,
including many muggles.  However, I see Gryffindor and Slytherin
Houses as the source of most of the people fighting; the other deaths
I see as being mainly "civilians." I probably don't need to explain
why I see Voldemort's side as being pretty much synonymous with
Slytherin House.  As for the "Light" side being primarily from
Gryffindor House, Dumbledore was from Gryffindor House, and whenever
house affiliation is mentioned for someone who was openly on
Dumbledore's side, that house was Gryffindor (Minerva, Hagrid, the
Potters, Lupin, Black.) Gryffindor's sword and hat help Harry against
Tom Riddle.  My theory is that Harry is Gryffindor's heir, and that
Fawkes was Gryffindor's pet. (Fawkes has Gryffindor's colors.) 


 And Finally -- Snape compared with Sirius

A number of people have mentioned that Sirius and Snape actually have
a lot in common.  I'd say they both share a certain lack of empathy
and quickness to anger, as well both being relatively fearless.  They
certainly differ, though, in that Snape is an introvert and Sirius is
an extrovert. 

 -- Judy