From carmenharms at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 01:25:21 2002 From: carmenharms at yahoo.com (snazzzybird) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 01:25:21 -0000 Subject: End of Harry Potter Series In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44721 "bohcoo" wrote: > It struck me as I reread the books that Rowling has been > foreshadowing the ending of the Harry Potter series all the way > through the books: Unfortunately, I think she is going to have Harry > awake from a dream, at the age of 17 or 18, living with the Dursleys - > - with a thought that he had just had some incredible, fantastic > dream. And then he will set about his life, as an ordinary person. > That way, we won't have to wonder what happened to everyone > throughout the years to come, and so on. > > It would be a tidy way to end the series -- but I hope I am wrong, > don't you? > > "bohcoo" The bird sez-- About a month ago there was a thread which dealt with a very similar theme. It was started by darkthirty, in post #43358 "Abstemiousness with the Truth..." Here is a brief quote from that first post: "The so-called magical world of Harry Potter is, on one level, on perhaps the most fundamental level, unequivocally nothing more than the extended fantasy-world of an abused boy stuck in a closet. ...Whether the boy is in fact adopted, or is imagining that he is adopted, taken from his so-called real parents, whether he attends a regular school or isn't even allowed to do that, it is his fantasy world to which we are exposed." This post prompted a great deal of lively and thoughtful discussion. You might want to read all of it and see how it fits (or doesn't fit) with your theory. --snazzzybird, who hopes desperately that it isn't true, but can't argue with the logic. From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Oct 1 02:20:26 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 21:20:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sorting Hat/ Voldemort's compitence/ Request for opinions References: Message-ID: <018c01c268f1$1b8e1aa0$c39fcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44722 > Pippin Continues: > > I have a new theory about the Hat. Its task is "to educate young > > sorcerers." I think it initially offers each student the House > > where he/she will learn the most magic. The Hat never promises > > that it will put you in the House where you'll be happiest, or even > > where you'll find your friends. It only says, "perhaps." I noticed something in the GoF sorting hat song that hadn't really stood out before. The sorting hat says "I've never yet been wrong." Does this imply that the hat will make a mistake? But it hasn't yet, or at least not one that's come out into the open. psychodudeneo wrote: > Take for example, the end scene of GoF. Voldemort makes what will > probably turn out to be the greatest mistake of his career. He gives > Harry a fighting chance. > > I'm sure the assembled Death Eaters were thinking the same thing I > was. > > "Wow. What an idiot." > > This is similar to the way traditional villains capture the hero and > place him in a cell somewhere with one inept guard to make sure they > don't escape. It's blatant stupidity. Ah, but he couldn't face a wandless Harry. Because that can't happen until the truth about Harry's (and Lily's) eyes comes out. Which I believe will be that they can do magic with their eyes. A more focused magic than ordinary witches/wizards can without wands. Perhaps more powerful. There is a JKR quote to back this up, by the way, it didn't just pop into my head. >From a BBC interview: BBC: Now, can I ask you: are there any special wizarding powers in your world that depend on the wizard using their eyes to do something? Bit like . . . JKR: Why do you want to know this? BBC: I just vaguely wondered. JKR: Why? BBC: Well because everyone always goes on about how Harry's got Lily Potter's eyes? JKR: Aren't you smart? There is something, maybe, coming about that. I'm going to say no more. Very clever. So in my opinion, Voldemort won't be stupid enough to have Harry disarmed and then give him back his wand again. But I don't really think they will meet again until the final confrontation in book 7. Plenty of DE's, yes, Voldemort, no. Possibly a brief encounter in book 6, not sure. But when it all comes down in Book 7, if Voldemort does get Harry's wand away from him, I don't think he'll give it back. But then there's those eyes . . . MarEprhaim writes: > One of the more prevalent predictions in the OoP Predictions Derby > is that the more oft noted beloved of Harry who will die in Book 5 > is Ron (other top contender, Hagrid). As Ron has always been the Well, I definitely say that it'll be Hagrid in book 5. You know, in GoF it even says something about deep affection for Hagrid. Mmhmm, he's a goner. > Would any of those who believe that Ron will die in the next (or > future) book(s) care to comment on why they think this is so? I think he is the most likely to die, but not until the final book. > Also, has anyone picked up any evidence from canon or otherwise that > would support this possibility? Sure, Ron's constant willingness to sacrifice himself for the good of mankind. Okay, at least so that Harry can continue on. Ron knows (even though he's jealous sometimes) that Harry is special, and has something inside that he will never be able to match. "bohcoo" writes: > It struck me as I reread the books that Rowling has been > foreshadowing the ending of the Harry Potter series all the way > through the books: Unfortunately, I think she is going to have Harry > awake from a dream, at the age of 17 or 18, living with the Dursleys - > - with a thought that he had just had some incredible, fantastic > dream. And then he will set about his life, as an ordinary person. > That way, we won't have to wonder what happened to everyone > throughout the years to come, and so on. I don't think she'll do this, though I admit it is a possibility. But what fun is a book series if when it ends it is simply over? It would be a cruel joke played on the rest of the world. "Gotcha, you thought this boy really had quite an adventure didn't you? Guess what, it was just a dream! Ha ha!" Nope, can't do that to the readers who have so FAITHFULLY waited for these books. I do think there is the slightest possibility that Harry could wake up in the cupboard, still at the age of eleven, go to the door to get the mail, flip through it, and find a letter addressed to "Mr. Harry Potter, the cupboard under the stairs." Turn it over, Hogwarts seal on the back. So, was it all prophetic? Will it come true? Will it be different now? Hmm? Just to throw this in, I most of all do not think JKR will kill Harry. Simply because she keeps implying that she might. And that's not like her to point you at things she's aiming for. So I think she's trying to throw us off. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 1 02:45:17 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 02:45:17 -0000 Subject: FILK: One More Handshake Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44723 One More Handshake To the tune of "One More Minute" by Weird Al Yankovic Scene: Dumbledore has just made Snape and Sirius shake hands. Snape and Sirius have something to say about it. Dumbledore sings "doo- wops" in the background. SNAPE (SIRIUS): Well, I hear you're not guilty (guilty) You're about to join the fight (I will fight) You did not betray the Potters Do you think that makes everything right? (Well ) So I'll stand (you'll stand) here and shake (and shake) your hand tonight Because Dumbledore told me to And I won't try to strangle you with my bare hands Or hex you until you turn blue That's right (that's right), you ain't gonna hear me bitchin' We'll both (we'll both) do whatever we have to do But I'd rather spend eternity drinking bubotuber pus Than to share one more handshake with you SIRIUS (SNAPE) Excuse me if I'm a bit bitter, (bitter) And filled with resentment and gall (and gall) Since fourteen years ago, when Dame Fortune reached out And sucker-punched me in the balls. In the Shrieking Shack you wouldn't listen And then (and then) Moony's secret you blew And I'd rather marry an Acromantula and honeymoon in Azkaban Than to share one more handshake with you SIRIUS and SNAPE (together, addressing Dumbledore) I would rather cuddle with a Blast-Ended Skrewt Than be forced to make nice to that git I'd rather get a Bludger in the face ? yah! Let it hit me and hit me and hit me and hit Oh, can't you see what we're trying to say, Albus? (they face each other again) SNAPE: I'd rather be stepped on by a Giant Be Crucio'd for a week or even two I'd rather let Neville Longbottom brew my Sunday morning tea Than to share one more handshake with you SIRIUS: Yes, I'd rather let Sybill Trelawney read my fortune, And then have every word of it come true I'd rather scrub all the bedpans in Pomfrey's infirmary with my hair Than to share one more handshake with you SIRIUS and SNAPE (together) I'd rather be transfigured into a ferret by Mad-Eye Moody And be bounced around the hallways till I die Than to share one more handshake with you Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Tue Oct 1 03:11:25 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 04:11:25 +0100 Subject: End of Harry Potter Series In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021001033447.0098e8b0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44724 At 22:00 30/09/02 +0000, bohcoo wrote: >There are numerous references like that throughout the books about >this just being a dream, that was only a dream, Harry expecting to >wake and find he had only dreamed this or that had happened, etc. > >It would be a tidy way to end the series -- but I hope I am wrong, >don't you? snazzybird has already replied to that, suggesting that you read the discussion which followed darkthirty's similar thesis last month (although yours is considerably less verbose)! :-) I didn't participate in that discussion here, but shortly afterwards he posted a slightly abbreviated form of his thesis in alt.fan.harry-potter (my main HP hangout), to which I posted a detailed reply. He said that was going to comment on my reply there, but he never got around to it. Since that time, he seems to have disappeared (both from afh-p and here). In brief, I'll summarise my own view that I find it deeply unsatisfying for Hogwarts et al to be nothing but a boy's dream. My main issue (which I don't think anyone else made here, and I don't have the time to go through the archives to check right now) with this thesis is that the Potterverse isn't the kind of fantasy world a downtrodden boy under the stairs would create. Firstly, and for me most importantly, boyhood fantasies revolve around being a great hero. Harry in the books (at least to date) is very largely an accidental hero, and he does not relish being thought of as anything but ordinary. He has no special abilities; in fact, he is average or below-average in just about every respect, and we are constantly reminded of this fact (he's small, studying doesn't come easily to him, etc) and in fact the only thing at which he has proven to be unnaturally adept is at summoning a Patronus, i.e. his father. Psychologically speaking, the Potterverse is quite simply much to complex to be the fantasy of a teenage boy. Furthermore, not only do his adventures not start with him attempting to save his friends, but he actively (though not deliberately) puts them in danger; only *then* does he attempt to save them. And he is unable to save them without help, be it from caring adults or those friends. I also find the Latin and constant references to Greek mythology to be far too erudite for an ordinary child being brought up in England on the cusp of the 21st century. Of course, if these are the fantasies not of a downtrodden boy under the stairs but a well-educated, well-looked after child, then *why* is he creating this fantasy? Children create imaginary worlds to escape real-world problems around them (not only children - most adult writers address the problems they see around them in their work!), so a happy child would not imagine the Potterverse. And if the fantasy world *is* that of a downtrodden child, the final "return to reality" would need to explain just why he's downtrodden and why nobody likes him. Accepting the Potterverse as is, Harry's treatment by the Dursleys is directly connected to the "fantasy" elements. All in all, then, the series' outcome as nothing but a long dream would be a major cop-out for me, and particularly hollow. The "moral" of the story would also lose a considerable amount of its impact: "it's all a dream, it doesn't matter"! On the other hand, I fear that JKR just might be going down a road just like this. Sorry, I can't find it right now, but a couple of weeks ago I was looking for something else in the archives of JKR's interviews, when I was shocked (in this context) to read JKR's reply to a question along the lines of "do you believe in magic?". In her answer, she said something like "no, I don't, and that will be very clear once people have had the chance to read all seven books". Someone better than I at searching the archives may be able to produce the exact quote, but the impression I got was that at the end of the series, the wizarding world will be shown to be non-existant. I just hope I completely misunderstood what she was trying to say. :-) From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Oct 1 03:28:01 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 22:28:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: End of Harry Potter Series References: <4.2.0.58.20021001033447.0098e8b0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <001301c268fa$8c62e7c0$759fcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44725 GulPlum writes: > On the other hand, I fear that JKR just might be going down a road just > like this. Sorry, I can't find it right now, but a couple of weeks ago I > was looking for something else in the archives of JKR's interviews, when I > was shocked (in this context) to read JKR's reply to a question along the > lines of "do you believe in magic?". In her answer, she said something like > "no, I don't, and that will be very clear once people have had the chance > to read all seven books". Someone better than I at searching the archives > may be able to produce the exact quote, but the impression I got was that > at the end of the series, the wizarding world will be shown to be non-existant. > > I just hope I completely misunderstood what she was trying to say. :-) Ah, I remember that. I, however, got something different out of it. They were actually talking about how she could believe in God and write about magic so to speak. The exact quote is as follows: Evan: You do believe in God. JKR: Yeah. Yeah. Evan: In magic and . . . JKR: Magic in the sense that it happens in my books, no, I don't believe. I don't believe in that. No. No. This is so frustrating. Again, there is so much I would like to say, and come back when I've written book seven. But then maybe you won't need to even say it 'cause you'll have found it out anyway. You'll have read it. Here's what I got from that. Whatever happens in the end, magic won't solve it. Harry will not pick up his wand and AK Voldemort into oblivion. Throughout the HP series, the truest deepest desires cannot be fulfilled by magic. Magic cannot bring James and Lily back. Magic cannot truly protect Harry from Voldemort. The only thing thus far that has protected Harry from Voldemort is love. Yes, I know we could go into the ancient magic thing, but a part of me wants to believe it was plain and simple, pure love. And the power of love is possibly the strongest real magic. It makes people do things they would never do otherwise. Perhaps this is the sort of magic JKR does believe in. It is, in a sense, magical. So it could be that in the end magic won't fix anything. Magic won't rid the world of Voldemort. But love, sacrifice, the true human emotions will. How, you'll have to ask JKR. :) Whether Harry gives up his magical powers to rid Voldemort of his, or something else, I don't know. But I think that it will have a lot less to do with powerful wizard magic than with the human spirit. And that is where Harry has the advantage over Voldemort. Richelle From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Tue Oct 1 03:50:34 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 04:50:34 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: End of Harry Potter Series Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021001045002.0098e100@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44726 At 22:28 30/09/02 -0500, Richelle Votaw wrote: > JKR: "Magic in the sense that it happens in my books, no, I don't believe. I > don't believe in that. No. No. This is so frustrating. Again, there is so > much I would like to say, and come back when I've written book seven. > But then maybe you won't need to even say it 'cause you'll have found it out > anyway. You'll have read it." Yes, that's the one I meant. Thanks. I *knew* someone would reproduce it very quickly. :-) >Here's what I got from that. Whatever happens in the end, magic won't solve >it. Harry will not pick up his wand and AK Voldemort into oblivion. >Throughout the HP series, the truest deepest desires cannot be fulfilled by >magic. Magic cannot bring James and Lily back. Magic cannot truly protect >Harry from Voldemort. Indeed, that's what I have always felt the books would ultimately be about. In a way, it goes back to the original point of this thread: Harry doesn't see himself as a great wizard at all (whether or not he is, is really irrelevant), and it is not wizarding prowess which will save the day; his purity, his innocence and (heck, let's use the word us menfolk avoid whenever we can!) his love, are what will triumph over the hatred and decrepitude Voldemort represents. A teenage boy's fantasy would NOT work that way. I always read that quote of JKR's to support that position, and I used to think nothing more of it. However, it's only because my last reading of it was influenced by darkthirty's thread that I started looking at it in a different light; she's talking not about the importance of magic, but the "reality" of it, hence my suspicions. I do agree that the quote most probably means nothing more than outlined above, but the alternative reading still could be inferred... From sugarkadi at aol.com Tue Oct 1 01:24:27 2002 From: sugarkadi at aol.com (sugarkadi at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 21:24:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Request for opinions (and reasons to justify them) Message-ID: <587D74E5.1ACA60A2.0290C41F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44727 MarEprhaim wrote: > Would any of those who believe that Ron will die in the next (or > future) book(s) care to comment on why they think this is so? I would love to! Like Rowling said in an interview, a lot of kids think Ron will die because he's Harry's best friend, and that's what they've come to expect. I suspect that either Ron or Harry will die, but not both, neither, or Hermione(seems to me she's safe; I can't really explain it). > Also, has anyone picked up any evidence from canon or otherwise that > would support this possibility? A lot of people have already noted the fact that Ron's wand is made of willow, like Lily's was (who's dead), and has a unicorn core, like Cedric(who's also dead). I'm sure that a lot of people Harry knows have Unicorn core and willow wands, but we're not told about them. When Mr. Olivander greets people he rattles off what their wand is, but only says the cores of some people. Also, in SS one of the centaurs says that it's always the innocent who go first. I think he was referencing the dead unicron they found in the forest, but I also think it's foreshadowing. > (Just wanting to prepare myself ahead of time if it really > is likely > to happen!) I don't want either of them to die, either, but I think it'll happen. Rowling's said one at least one death will be really horrible to write. How jolly. (Listening to Fight Fiercely Harvard, sorry.) ~Katey From dcyasser at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 01:51:27 2002 From: dcyasser at yahoo.com (dcyasser) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 01:51:27 -0000 Subject: Somebody please save Ron! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44728 As we wait for Book 5, I admit that fear is right up there with anticipation as we wait for the happy WW to crumble; or at least safe havens such as Hogwarts and the Burrow to be irreversibly damaged by battles to come. I am as terrified to read it as I am excited, but have no wish to speculate on deaths we'll dread. But what I want to see most in Book 5 is someone to save Ron -- not necessarily from death, but from a complete absence of self-worth. I want someone to say something wonderful to Ron, about Ron! Ah, Ron, sidekick, buddy, comedian. Arriving at Hogwarts already expecting to do worse than his brothers, not as athletic as Charlie, not as smart as Bill, not as funny as Fred and George. Which is OK, until he starts hanging out with Harry, famous infant; super-seeker; Voldemort-facer-downer;Triwizard champion; Dumbledore's boy; procurer of dates for the Yule ball. Even that would be bearable for Ron, if perhaps he could get the occasional recognition from his peers for what he does right. (Yes, he got points for his chess game. But what did Harry say to him about it?) We've heard the theory that a wounded Ron is perfect pickings for a Dark Lord on a mission. We hope it's not so. But if it is, who has driven him to it? 2 culprits. 1) Harry. I was reading PoA to my daughter last night, and was so incensed with Harry at the end, in the hospital wing, when poor Ron comes round, asks what happened, and Harry flippantly (I think) says to Hermione "you tell him" while putting away more chocolate. (I do not have the book handy.) Yeah, cute and all, but poor Ron! Poor broken-legged, severely hexed, not- feeling-too-well Ron. As I read this last night, I pictured him pushing Harry out of the way of the attacking Padfoot; then gamely standing up on his broken leg and vowing to protect Harry in the Shrieking Shack. He wakes up after it is all over, and Harry, flushed and tired from further adventures, decides he's not in the mood to talk to him. This really made me angry, and I don't generally get angry with Harry. 2) But worse, and I admit I say this as a parent... My very favorite moment for Harry in all of the books is made possible by my very worst moment for Ron. Best moment for Harry, when I actually said "finally" out loud, is when Molly Weasley embraces him in the hospital wing. I read this over and over, as if it would make up for Harry's years of deprivation. But it came at Ron's expense, not right there at that moment, but earlier, before the third task, when Molly and Bill Weasley surprise Harry by showing up as his "family." That's all well and good, except that they surprised Ron as well. How could he not have been told they were coming? And coming to fuss over Champion Harry, with an offhand sounding question to Ron about his exams. I fully expected Ron to have known they were coming, that his mother would even have asked him if it was OK with him. This stung me as a reader, and it has to have stung Ron, although he may not feel it until later. So how about a little Ron-appreciation cheer before it is too late! "Ron, thanks so much for defending me in the Shrieking Shack, that was very brave!" "Ron, you know I am very fond of Harry but you, you are my son." Ron, hope you make the quidditch team because you are so good at strategy and details. Y - E - A - H RON! "dcyasser" From sugarkadi at aol.com Tue Oct 1 02:34:30 2002 From: sugarkadi at aol.com (sugarkadi at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 22:34:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: End of Harry Potter Series Message-ID: <563304AD.4D2FD593.0290C41F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44729 bohcoo" wrote: > > It struck me as I reread the books that Rowling has been > > foreshadowing the ending of the Harry Potter series all the way > > through the books: Unfortunately, I think she is going to have > Harry > > awake from a dream, at the age of 17 or 18, living with the > Dursleys - > > - with a thought that he had just had some incredible, > fantastic > > dream. I'm not much of a writer, but my english teacher last year told us that ending a story with the character waking up and everything having been a dream is the ultimate cop-out. I don't think she'll do that. She's too good a writer and has read enough stories to know what makes a good one, and the ending having the character waking up is not one of them. and remember, Rowling said the last chapter will basically be an epilogue, saying what happens to the survivers. That means Harry would have to wake up on about the last page and we would be left with something incredibly unfulfilling, which Rowling has said is something that bothers her in books. I don't think you have to worry about her doing that to us. =) ~Katey From abaron at erols.com Tue Oct 1 02:39:28 2002 From: abaron at erols.com (brainiac613) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 02:39:28 -0000 Subject: Translation questions... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44730 Recently I picked up a copy of the Hebrew translation of PS/SS. I figured I've read it enough times in English that trying to decipher it in another language I'm familiar with would be fun. Aside from attracting a few odd looks on my subway ride to work, I'm having a great time with it. Whoever did the translation was very careful to transliterate the names appropriately, and switch the idioms so that Israeli kids can understand the book, rather than struggle to comprehend British slang translated into the modern incarnation of an ancient Semitic language. :-) So, here's my question... Has anyone else here read any non-English translations of the HP books? What did you think? (Appologies if this has been discussed before, but I'm new, and thought this'd be a good first post...) "brainiac613" From myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 05:20:51 2002 From: myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com (Moonstruck) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 22:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thoughts on SHIPS In-Reply-To: <39391374961.20020930115234@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20021001052051.53192.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44731 I have to weigh in on this discussion of SHIPS and their importance to the HP series. There seems to be a climate of dismissiveness toward the development of romantic relationships amongst the Hogwarts students -- specifically Harry, Hermione, and Ron. The inference, it seems to me, is that these types of relationships are trivial to the overriding action of the books. I could not disagree more. Indeed, I believe they will prove vital to the battle against Voldemort, the development of the plot, and the survival/redemption of many of the series' characters. Perhaps Im a sappy sentimentalist, perhaps Im reading far too much into the novels, but one of HPs clear themes in the redemptive power of love (be it parental, romantic, or platonic) and its strength to survive and thrive in even the most horrendous circumstances (i.e. Lilys love for Harry empowering him long after her death). Had the love between Tom Riddles parents been strong and true, muggle Tom Riddle Sr. wouldnt have abandoned his witch wife and, perhaps, Voldemort may never have existed. And what of Lucius and Narcissa Malfoy. Do we get the sense that they feel honest affection and love toward each other or that she is simply his elitist trophy wife? Perhaps if they exhibited true marital devotion to one another, Draco would have grown into a more benevolent and brave individual (although that is also due to his parents skewed social ethics). Lily and James Potter were surely surrounded by an ever darkening and terrifying world when they attended Hogwarts together (as they were killed only years following their graduation). The threat may have been more so menacing in light of Voldemorts apparent targeting of the entire Potter clan. Yet, somehow, out of thus climate of fear and danger, James and Lily found each other, fell in love, and married not long after leaving Hogwarts. If we are to believe romantic pairings are of secondary importance in the HP lexicon, how do we explain that this one example of true love James and Lily is, in a sense, the basis of the entire HP series. If James and Lily hadnt fallen in love, if their greatest strengths and qualities had become one in marriage, we would have had no Harry Potter. Harry is the living representation of the romantic love that existed between his parents. His power, skills, and integrity are the manifestation of the combined energies created by his parents union. As much as one cant consider the romantic pairing of James and Lily Potter trivial, I dont think its fair for one to consider the pairings of Harry and his contemporaries to be trivial. Dont get me wrong Im not at all interested in the series dissolving into some silly teen Harlequin. In fact, it seems to me that the these pairings will have far less to do with drippy romance, than with the significance of two people finding they can contribute something vital and lasting to each other, something that will make them stronger, braver, wiser, and more aware of their potential as an individual. Im not sure if Im getting my point across as well as Id like, but I think JKR often illustrates loves ability to draw out the best within us and heal our wounds. For example and we know this will be a plot line later on according to JKR one wonders what kind of man Snape would be if somebody, especially a love interest, had shown him all-embracing affection and acceptance. Though one has the impression that Snape is not an evil man, hes irrefutably bitter and, one senses, lonely. Would he still behave as venomously as he does today if he had known the redemptive effects of love? Ive said I believe Ron and Hermione will be significant for one another because of what Hermione can offer to Ron as a partner. I dont begin to suggest that Hermiones only purpose in a relationship with Ron or in the books after that point is to become Rons savior. Not at all. However, Ron obviously bears a great many self-esteem issues. Hes so busy trying to measure up to everyone around him, that hes completely lost sight of any positive qualities he himself might possess. Hell never be Charlie or Bill or Percy or Fred and George or Harry or Hermione and he shouldnt want to be. I think we all sense that were Ron to simply work on being Ron, hed find he possesses strengths and skills as formidable and valuable as any of the others with whom hes constantly competing. But before any of that can happen, he needs to find worth within himself. Were Hermione to love him on his own merits, for exactly who he is faults and all, over anybody else in his life, I believe it would be the first step in Rons search for self-acceptance. Add to that the fact that, while Hermione gives her love to Ron, she also continues to make him acutely aware of any self-defeating, asinine behavior, I believe Ron would slowly but surely find a true and healthy sense of himself and begin to discover and cultivate his own talents. At that point, once Ron finds his footing, I believe well see a Ron and Hermione who are equal and can share with and learn from one another, thus creative a powerful and productive partnership. Without this influence, Ive always thought Ron might grow bitter and hateful and grow into someone quite Snape-like. And though Harry has the loyal companionship of Ron and Hermione, he still comes across as rather melancholy, incomplete, and isolated. His infatuation with Cho Chang rouses feelings of resentfulness and spite toward Cedric Diggory. These are impulses that are somewhat counter to Harrys usually good-natured, fair-minded attitude especially given the fact that he generally feels no ill will toward Cedric. Harrys abnormally bitter reaction to Cedric and his relationship with Cho somewhat reminds me of the scene in GoF when Harrys discussion with Sirius is cut short by Rons unexpected appearance. Harry is uncharacteristically livid, screams at Ron, and even goes so far as to through one of the Harry Potter Sucks buttons at him. Ron has struck a nerve - Harry's desire and need for family - with Harry and it causes him to do things rather violent things that he would normally never do, especially to Ron. In a way, I think Harrys resentment toward Cedric and Ron are related. Harry longs for love, affection, understanding, and family. Having a girlfriend is probably about the closest thing Harry could have for a family (beside Ron and Hermione). After all, a girlfriend can lead to love and love can lead to marriage, which is the basis for family. Harry wants to find someone special someone he can call his own, someone he can come to with fears and pain, someone who will love him unconditionally and forever, someone with whom he has a meaningful connection. With a girlfriend, he could begin to piece together the beginning of the family he so longs for. Again, am I making any sense? Im not a believer that one needs a significant other in order to achieve ones ultimate destiny, and I dont fully believe thats what JKR is driving at. However, the people in Harrys life clearly play a large role in leading him in the right direction toward self-actualization and helping him realize and believe in the many strengths and qualities he possesses. The final step in that journey is finding a partner who not only encourages his continued growth, but stands beside him with her own comparable power to create a force of love will never die just as the combined strength of James and Lilys love lives on in Harry and will reverberate forever through the goodness of his actions. In the end, I believe the loving power and strength created through these couplings will help them all -- together or seperately -- to form a formidable alliance against Voldemort, who is at a distinct disadvantage. As Dumbledore tells Harry in SS/PS: "If there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand, it is love." (299) One final note: A lot of anti-SHIP speculation seems to center around the assumption that all of the dark and terrible things beginning to escalate in the WW would make infatuation/love/romance irrelevant or unimportant to the characters. Im not so sure about that. Ive done no research on this sort of thing, but its always been my understanding that, when faced with danger or crisis, many people tend to fall into relationships. In those types of situations, emotions are running high and people are scared. Fearing death, some people confess to or act on feelings theyd hidden or were unaware of in the past. Or they turn to others for support and comfort and for the escape that affairs or love can bring. And, also, were talking about teenaged kids. I realize that Harry, at least, faces these threats with a far greater level of immediacy, but bombs could have been dropping around my high school and I still would have been a bit fixated on falling in love and having a boyfriend. I think its just the nature of adolescence. I mean, how much of Anne Franks diary was focused on WWII and how much was about her relationship with Peter Van Daam? And she truly did have bombs flying around her. -Jessica, who is an eternal big mouth ===== "Oh, I'll settle down with some old story/About a boy who's just like me/Thought there was love in everything and everyone/You're so naive!/After a while they always get it/They always reach a sorry end/Still it was worth it as I turned the pages solemnly, and then/With a winning smile, the boy/With naivety succeeds/At the final moment, I cried/I always cry at endings" - "Get Me Away From Here I'm Dying," Belle and Sebastian __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 1 06:59:18 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 06:59:18 -0000 Subject: Non-wizards with magical talent / Voldemort's Compitence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44732 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "psychodudeneo" wrote: > I'm sure I'll get him NEXT time!". > > Take for example, the end scene of GoF. Voldemort makes what will > probably turn out to be the greatest mistake of his career. He > gives Harry a fighting chance. > > I'm sure the assembled Death Eaters were thinking the same thing I > was. > > "Wow. What an idiot." > > This is similar to the way traditional villains capture the hero > and place him in a cell somewhere with one inept guard to make sure >they don't escape. It's blatant stupidity. > Err... No. It isn't. I did a very long analysis of the graveyard scene back in post #40044, and in fact Voldemort is not being stupid at all. There's some evidence (its all in #40044) that Harry is currently *less* effective with his wand than he is without it. Don't forget - Harry's still a student, learning to use his wand. *Without* his wand otoh, he came incredibly close to killing Voldemort at the tender age of one. > Even Voldemort, megalomaniac that he is, should've thought: > > "Gee, this kid whooped my arse twice before. Maybe I shouldn't arm > him and try to fight him again? Maybe I should just kill him now > that I have him trapped?" > Again, if you read that scene through, you *can* come to the conclusion that Voldemort would love to kill Harry, but isn't entirely certain that he's going to be *able* to. He tries to weaken Harry first - by the tying to the gravestone, by the crucios, and then doesn't actually launch his AK until Harry is concentrating on another spell. > > I can only hope that Voldemort, at the climax of Book 5, doesn't >give Harry his wand, a bazooka, some grenades, and a trained dragon > while exclaiming to his minions: > > "I'll beat him this time, just WATCH!" He might well let Harry have a bazooka. Harry doesn't know how to use a bazooka. [grin] > > No wonder all the DE's forsook him. Ah, but did they? Pip!Squeak [who managed to get through the entire post without mentioning the words that mean magic-things-which-are-very-handy-to-have-in-the- kitchen*] [Especially if you hold lots of dinner parties]. From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 09:00:11 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 02:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In Defense of Ginny-some SHIP ( was Re: Re: SHIP: H/H, H/R or other?) Message-ID: <20021001090012.1299.qmail@web40310.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44733 Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 17:23:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Moonstruck Subject: Re: Re: SHIP: H/H, H/R or other? Jessica: Ginny Weasley is a serious thorn in my side. She?s the wild card. Right now, she?s merely a caricature and that makes me extremely suspicious. Me: I described her as the "Ace" up JKR?s sleeve the other day, but the "Wild Card" seems to fit a little better because we just don?t know what will happen. Lot?s of interesting card imagery here, though... I?ve always been suspicious of why she played such a big role in COS, and then disappeared into the background again. When I read the series the first time, I kept looking for more development about Ginny from books 3 and 4, but to no avail. Jessica: As a Weasley, Ginny is simply too important to the plot to remain underdeveloped. Besides, how many characters in the HP series can you truly call underdeveloped? I think OoP will make or break her as a potential partner for Harry ?? and Rowling has said Ginny be playing a bigger role. Perhaps I??m a pessimist, but my overwhelming sense with Ginny is that, as the series, progresses and we discover more about Lily Potter (another development JKR has said will begin in OoP ?? and I fear that??s not a coincidence), we??re going to increasingly find that she??s a modern day embodiment of Harry??s mother. There are really only two thoughts that lead me in that direction right now and they??re debatable: ?? Ginny is a shortened version of the name ""Virginia."" I believe this is significant because the name ""Ginny"" is not particularly common and it??s close enough to the name ""Jenny"" that there must be a specific reasonshe chose that variation of the name. ""Virginia"" means ""chaste, virginal."" The flower ""lily"" is a symbol of innocence, purity and beauty. It seems to me chastity, virginity, innocence, and purity all represent the same ideals. ?? Ginny has red hair ?? a weak case for hardcore comparison, but show me another female anywhere near Harry??s age who has red hair. Me: I?ve wondered myself if there would be a parallel between Lily and Ginny by JKR. We had Harry?s dad?s story in POA, and we?re told by JKR that we will learn more about Lily in a future book, and Ginny will play a bigger role in book 5. Jessica: I have to say for Ginny and Harry what I said for Ron and Hermione ?? JKR is fond of establishing parallels between characters. It makes sense then that the romantic developments in Harry, Ron, and Hermione (but particularly Harry and Ron) lives will mirror those of their parents??. We all ready know Harry is the spitting image of his father in both appearance and behavior. It wouldn??t be a huge stretch to believe Ginny will closely resemble Lily, making Harry and Ginny the obvious match for one another. But JKR is going to have to REALLY go a long way to convince me that Ginny Weasley is either (a) a feisty, smart heroine type, or (b) Harry??s ideal gal. Me: Well, if her mother is any indication, Ginny may very well already be a feisty, fiery red-head just by being raised by one. We?ve never seen her temper to know this, however. Also, Ron tells us that she never shuts up (COS, 40), another indication that she may be a bit more feisty than Harry perceives her to be, as Ron knows what she?s really like at home. She stands up to Malfoy to defend Harry at Flourish and Blotts (COS, 61), which is pretty feisty for someone who can?t even look Harry in the face. Smart? Do we know anything about her grades? Nope. Any talents? No, we?re not told. That doesn?t mean she doesn?t have any. I think she might understand parselmouth, having been possessed by Riddle to open up the chamber and summon the basalisk. Of course, this is my personal assumption based on the same concept of bits of Voldy staying with Harry from the infamous AK. Heroine type? IMO, she has a life-debt to Harry that may come into play. She?s survived a terrible ordeal from the COS, but we don?t know if she?s chosen to learn and grow stronger from this experience so she isn?t used as the Dark Lord?s pawn again (as I suspect may be the case). If anything, she?s pretty heroic to survive living with F & G, let alone 5 other males in that crazy Weasley household!:-) As for Harry's "Ideal"...time will tell with that as well. What is his ideal? I?m sure there are as many opinions to this question as there are readers. Does Harry even know his ideal? We just need more input regarding Ginny! Keep your word, Jo! Jesica; Ginny?s just been too much giggly and blushing in the first four books to impress me much. In fact, she embodies all the stereotypical traits of femininity that I find highly irritating ?? and of which Hermione represents an antithesis. Ginny??s entire identity is woven around her schoolgirl crush on Harry. The only book in which she plays any importance, CoS, centers on how her seemingly all-consuming infatuation of Harry nearly topples the balance of the universe and leaves her in need of rescuing. Please. Does she do *anything* but sit around pining for Harry?" Me: "Seemingly" is the operative word in that sentence, since the story is from Harry?s POV and we have our own perceptions/interpretations of what we?ve read. We can?t assume that?s all she does because she?s just not in books 3 and 4 very much to prove that. Her few appearances since COS includes the singing get-well-card she gave to Harry in POA, and blushing when first seeing Harry at the Burrow in GOF. So, I understand why you think that?s all she does. That?s all JKR lets us see in what few scenes written about Ginny since COS. But what does she do when Harry?s not around? Do we know? No! So, we can?t assume that?s all she does. Is that L.O.O.N.y enough for ya? A little aside here...I have a theory that it was Gred and Forge who sent that Valentine to Harry as a joke. I mean, come on..."His eyes are as green as a fresh pickled toad..."? A girl thinking romantically about a boy is not going to compare his eyes to something gross you?d find in a bottle on Snape?s potion shelves. I think the twins did it because they knew of her crush, and...just because they?re Fred and George. " "Yeah, she?ll be wanting your autograph, Harry", Fred said with a big grin." (COS 35). Brothers can be so cruel. Perhaps I don?t find her irritating because I remember an 11-14 year old me who had crushes and blushed incessantly. But I grew out of it, and there is evidence she is growing out of this as well. In fact, I see little hints that Ginny is maturing throughout the series. In COS, she just squealed and closed the door when she first saw Harry ( 40). In GOF pg. 54, she blushed but didn?t look away when Harry smiled at her and Hermione at the Burrow. Now, it's a far cry from putting your elbow in the butter dish (COS, 44) to being in the same room talking about Percy and Pigwidgeon with the trio, and not blushing (GOF 55-58). Hey, it?s not much, but it is progress! That?s all JKR has given us to go on. We don't know how all-consuming this crush was for sure, only heresy from Tom and Harry's own perception in his POV. Tom does say that she talked about things other than her crush, like how her brothers tease her and how everything she has is secondhand (COS 309). Jessica (I think quoting this article on this website): http://www.cgjungpage.org/articles/grynbaumpotter.html "Ginny, thus far, is the helpless, hopeless princess who, in her emotional ignorance, wreaks total havoc on herself and then waits for her prince to come and rescue her. Is that *really* what we want for Harry? Methinks not. However, the importance of her and her feelings for Harry in one of Harry??s big battles with Voldemort/Tom Riddle causes me pause. Perhaps it is an indication of the centrality those emotions will play if future books." Me: This quote kind of makes it sound like it was Ginny?s plan all along to be saved to snag Harry. We need to remember who really did the havoc wreaking here. Ginny was duped by Tom Riddle. He used *her*. The only thing she is "guilty" of here is confiding in a diary. "I suppose the real reason Ginny Weasley's like this (near death on the Chamber floor) is because she opened her heart and spilled all her secrets to an invisible stranger." (Tom Riddle, COS 309) It is Tom who twists her deepest hopes and fears to his advantage by being charming and just listening to her. It was he who used her soul to come out of the diary, and that?s why she needed saving, being near-death and all. She had been used up and couldn't very well do it on her own. Helpless and hopeless? After what Tom had done to her, yes, she seems pretty helpless and hopeless. Does she wreak the havoc upon herself? Uh, no, that would be Tom. She did try to dispose of the diary after she stopped trusting it, remember? She tried to help herself. One thing we need to remember was that she was ONLY 11 YEARS OLD! How strong were you at 11? We?re told that she fought till the end... "(Tom) made her write her own farewell (my thoughts...Imperio, perhaps?)....She struggled and cried....But there wasn't much life left in her...she had put too much into the diary, into (Tom)" (COS 313). Emotional ignorance? Yes, of course, because, SHE IS ONLY 11 YEARS OLD! Dumbledore tells everyone, "Older and wiser wizards than she have been hoodwinked by Lord Voldemort." (COS 330) Let?s give the girl the chance to grow up before we decide she?s always going to be like a stereotypical 11 year old! We give the same courtesy to Neville, expecting him to come-out of whatever is holding him back. Why not Ginny? Jessica: It??s very possible JKR is throwing us all curve balls, as she??s been known to do in the past, but it still seems to me she??s leaning toward a Harry/Ginny, Ron/Hermione situation. Here??s my hunch: Rowling has long said she based Hermione on herself. She??s also said she named her hero Harry because it??s her favorite male name. In fact, she goes so far to say that if she??d had a son, she would have named him Harry. My instinct is that JKR thinks of Harry as a son ?? after all, she did, in a creative sense, give birth to him. So if JKR identifies with Hermione, it would be unnatural from her perspective to pair Harry with Hermione. I think that??s why Hermione takes on a protective companion/mothering role with Harry. Hermione acts as JKR in giving guidance and support to Harry. Or maybe I??m reading too much into things. Me: That?s the way I?ve seen Hermione with Harry, as a mother to him. Or, like a big sister, kind of like Meg looking after and feeling very protective of her extra-special and talented younger brother, Charles Wallace, from the Madeline L?Engle books. Jessica: Anyway, there??s tons more I??d like to write, but this is becoming rather depressing and it??s beginning to resemble a doctoral thesis. -Jessica Me: You?ve brought up some good points. I understand we have many highly intelligent females on this list who relate completely with Hermione, and so it makes sense why Ginny is an irritation. But, what if you were judged for the rest of your life by how you were at 11, or how you were perceived to be by others? Isn?t Dumbledore a firm believer in second chances (i.e. Snape)? I know I grew out of my 11-year-old Ginny-ness, became over-the-top Hermione-ish in high school and college, and have settled into a nice balance between the two characters now. I just want to sum it up by saying that I?m keeping an open mind concerning ships and character development, especially in underdeveloped characters such as Ginny. To borrow a phrase from Tolkien, my heart tells me that Ginny has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end. Because, as we know all too well, anything is possible in the Potterverse. Lilac (who feels like a protective big sister to Ginny) ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 09:22:39 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 09:22:39 -0000 Subject: Somebody please save Ron! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44734 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "dcyasser" wrote: ....BIG Edit... > > So how about a little Ron-appreciation cheer before it is too > late! "Ron, thanks so much for defending me in the Shrieking Shack, > that was very brave!" "Ron, you know I am very fond of Harry but > you, you are my son." Ron, hope you make the quidditch team because > you are so good at strategy and details. Y - E - A - H RON! > > > "dcyasser" bboy_mn: I'm going to stray from Canon which means that right now the moderators are probably aiming a very big cannon at me. I hope Ron does something so obviously and independantly heroic that no one can possibly ignore him. So heroic, that while still Harry's friend, he is not basking in Harry's reflectd glory. Among a small segement of wizards, Ron is a king, a hero's hero, a champion's campion. In my fan fiction, (the moderators are now lighting the fuse on their cannon) kids come rushing up to Harry and Ron, Harry rolls his eyes and say, 'Crap, not this again. More hero worship.', but the kids rush past Harry and go straight to Ron. Sure Harry beat up some stupid lizard man, but can he play chess? No? Well then who cares then. Among chess players, the Philosopher's Stone chess game against McGonnagall's chess set was the most noble, brave, and heroic game of chess ever played in the entire history of the world. A 12 year old boy, scared to death, overpower, out matched, played bravely to the end. Then, like any good chess player, he saw the sacrifice play, he knew that sometimes a player must be lost for the greater good of the game, for the greater good of the world. And the greatest most noble and brave chess player who ever lived, did just that, he sacrificed himself for the great good of the world and for the sake of his friends. I swear if I was a little kid chess player in England, every night before I went to bed, I would bow my head, fold my hands, and say a little pray to the lord and master of all chess players; the great Ron Weasley. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From dragonettefish at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 03:42:14 2002 From: dragonettefish at yahoo.com (Jessica) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 03:42:14 -0000 Subject: Name Meanings in Harry Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44735 Hi! I was just skimming my favorite site and I thought this might be very intereting to the people who have been writing about the meaning of names. The site http://www.hogwarts.esmartweb.com/name.htm has almost every character in the series name analyzed. It's rather odd because every character is exactly like their name! I like Ron's the best: As Ronald you have a great love of nature and the out-of-doors, and could have a desire to be in an occupation which takes you outdoors and involves you with the products of the earth. All the finer things of life and beauties of nature are an inspiration to you and you are attracted to the mysteries of nature. Difficulty in expression results in your being too positive, blunt, and candid in speech. Although you are easily offended by others, you do not show it. You crave affection and understanding, but rarely find it as others do not understand you and accuse you of being cool and aloof. The average person would never realize the true depth of your nature. A very individual, independent person, you live within your own thoughts. The insecurity you experience from limited verbal expression and social ease results in a jealous possessiveness and suffering through frustration, repressed emotion, and self- consciousness. This name would cause tension affecting the eyes, teeth, sinuses, ears or throat troubles; there could also be sensitivity in the heart, lungs, and respiratory organs, and frequent headaches. If anyone finds any clues to what the names could foreshadow please post or email me! Thanks! "Jessica" From myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 07:34:06 2002 From: myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com (Moonstruck) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 00:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Request for opinions (and reasons to justify them) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021001073406.91420.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44736 MarEprhaim said: > One of the more prevalent predictions in the OoP > Predictions Derby is that the more oft noted beloved of Harry who will die in Book 5 is Ron (other top contender, Hagrid). As Ron has always been the more interesting and humourous character of the cast of principles I found this speculation most distressing. (snip) Has anyone picked up any evidence from canon or otherwise that would support this possibility? Now Me: I'm of the opinion that Ron won't die -- or if it does, it will be at the end of the series. I say that for two reasons: (a) JKR has set the stage in GoF for something serious to develop between Ron and Hermione -- plot-wise, it makes no sense to start such a seemingly important subplot only to abandon it in the next book by killing Ron, and (b) Ron hasn't come into his own yet -- JKR has given us many reasons to believe that Ron has the potential to become a great wizard, but to do so, he's going to have to emerge from the shadows of his brothers and Harry and Hermione and find confidence in himself. It's going to take more than one book for Ron to reach that level of independence, and I simply refuse to belive that JKR is going to kill Ron before he comes to peace with himself and realizes his true potential. But there are two scenes that I find particularly troublesome for Ron: >From SS/PS: " 'Yes...' said Ron softly, 'it's the only way...I've got to be taken.' 'NO!' Harry and Hermione shouted. 'That's chess!' snapped Ron. 'You've got to make some sacrifices! I take one step forward and she'll take me -- that leaves you to checkmate the king, Harry!' 'But--' 'Do you want to stop Snape or not?' 'Ron--' 'Look, if you don't hurry up, he'll already have the Stone!' There was no alternative. 'Ready?' Ron called, his face pale but determined. 'Here I go -- now, don't hang around once you've won.' He stepped forward, and the white queen pounced. She struck Ron hard across the head with her stone arm, and he crashed to the floor -- Hermione screamed but stayed on her square -- the white queen dragged Ron to one side. He looked as if he'd been knocked out." (283) Pretty self-explanatory, there. And from PoA: "As Harry was helping himself to roast potatoes, the doors of the Great Hall opened again. It was Professor Trelawney, gliding toward them as though on wheels....Professor Trelawney, however, did not sit down; her enormous eyes had been roving around the table, and she suddenly uttered a kind of soft scream. 'I dare not, Headmaster! If I join the table, we shall be thirteen! Nothing could be more unlucky! Never forget that when thirteen dine together, the first to rise will be the first to die!' (snip) Full to bursting with Christmas dinner and still wearing their party hats, Harry and Ron got up first from the table and she [Professor Trelawney] shrieked loudly. 'My dears! Which of you left his seat first? Which?' 'Dunno,' said Ron, looking uneasily at Harry. 'I doubt it will make much difference,' said Professor McGonagall coldly, 'unless a mad axe-man is waiting outside the doors to slaughter the first into the entrance hall.' Even Ron laughed. Professor Trelawney looked highly affronted." (228-30) That could be interpreted as a death omen for either Ron or Harry, but notice that it's Ron who's mentioned most after he and Harry rise. Also, though this is only conjecture on my part, I don't believe JKR is going to kill her hero off, which would leave Ron the obvious victim. However, this scene could have a far less literal meaning -- or it could mean nothing (which I doubt). Finally, let's not forget the seeming association with Ron and the Imperious Curse in GoF. Not only is he the student who volunteers information about it in DADA class -- definitely significant since Ron so rarely speaks up in class -- JKR makes a special point of saying that Ron has a tremendous difficulty resisting the curse when Mad-Eye tests it on him. Granted, the Imperious Curse isn't necessarily lethal. But were Ron to fall under it's influence (which I firmly believe will happen), his possessed actions may put him in the path of danger or he may be disgarded by Voldy/the DE's once his usefullness has ended. We shall see...but I'd hedge my bets that Hagrid's the goner in book five :`( -Jessica ===== "Oh, I'll settle down with some old story/About a boy who's just like me/Thought there was love in everything and everyone/You're so naive!/After a while they always get it/They always reach a sorry end/Still it was worth it as I turned the pages solemnly, and then/With a winning smile, the boy/With naivety succeeds/At the final moment, I cried/I always cry at endings" - "Get Me Away From Here I'm Dying," Belle and Sebastian __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From xEmeraldxSnakex at aol.com Tue Oct 1 09:18:54 2002 From: xEmeraldxSnakex at aol.com (xEmeraldxSnakex at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 05:18:54 EDT Subject: Lucius/Narcissa opinions anyone? Message-ID: <45.1e31c53a.2acac27e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44737 Yep, another one of my annoying questions ^^ But anyways, what do you people think of the Lucius/Narcissa paring? I'm not sure of my own opinion yet. Lucius doesn't strike me as above arranged marriages (Does the Wizarding World still do that?) and marrying to suit his own purposes..... But then again is there no one in the HP fandom that believes there's a little lurve in the Malfoy Mansion? I'm pretty sure they're not happily married, but there still has to be something going on between them.... Right? -Emerald Snake ^^ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gandharvika at hotmail.com Tue Oct 1 11:23:17 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 11:23:17 +0000 Subject: [HP4Grownups)Cruico (FLIK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44738 Good morning, everybody...and what a beautiful morning it is! Crucio (A Filk by Gail Bohacek to the tune _Chicago_ as performed by Frank Sinatra) Lord Voldemort is crooning: Crucio, crucio That horrible curse Crucio, cruico There's nothing that's worse Bet you bottom sickle that you'll go psycho with Crucio Crucio; the one that sent the Longbottoms to Mugo's Death Eaters, they'll beat ya I just have to say They'll crucio you any time of the day They'll torture you with much worse than knives I met a man, he screamed for his life With cruico, my favorite curse! They'll torture you with much worse than knives I knew a man, he screamed for his life With crucio, my favorite curse! Crucio! Crucio! Crucio! -Gail B...who is strangely infatuated by the word "crucio" although she wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of a wand when somebody else is saying it :)> _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 1 12:43:04 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 12:43:04 -0000 Subject: Somebody please save Ron! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44739 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "dcyasser" wrote: > 1) Harry. I was reading PoA to my daughter last night, and was so > incensed with Harry at the end, in the hospital wing, when poor Ron > comes round, asks what happened, and Harry flippantly (I think) says > to Hermione "you tell him" while putting away more chocolate. (I do > not have the book handy.) Yeah, cute and all, but poor Ron! Poor > broken-legged, severely hexed, not- feeling-too-well Ron. As I read > this last night, I pictured him pushing Harry out of the way of the > attacking Padfoot; then gamely standing up on his broken leg and > vowing to protect Harry in the Shrieking Shack. He wakes up after > it is all over, and Harry, flushed and tired from further adventures, > decides he's not in the mood to talk to him. This really made me > angry, and I don't generally get angry with Harry. Now me: I don't read this the same way as you. I don't have the book with me (I really should start bringing them into work!) but didn't Harry look at Hermione first before saying "You tell him" I got the feeling that Hermione wanted to be the one to tell him. After it was the time turner given to HER that allowed them to save Sirius, also she understands about it, she knew that you shouldn't really let your past self's see you etc. All-in-all Hermione understands the ins and outs of it better than Harry does (how do you explain to someone else something that you are bit confused/don't fully understand yourself). I get the feeling that Harry's allowing Hermione to tell Ron what Happened (and maybe giving her, her bit of credit at the same time after all she didn't help them at the end of COS because she was petrified) giving her, the chance she deserves to show off what she Helped him do. Michelle From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Oct 1 13:29:33 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 13:29:33 -0000 Subject: Right Here at Hogwarts (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44740 Right Here at Hogwarts (PS/SS, Chap. 7) To the tune of Under the Boardwalk by the Drifters Hear the original at: http://www.wtv-zone.com/ezegoinguy/50spage.html Dedicated to Ellen Anglin THE SCENE: The Great Hall. With all Hogwarts in attendance, DUMBLEDORE gives his welcome DUMBLEDORE Oh now the Hat is done and till next year will be at rest And our duty is clear, we must take our forks up and digest Right here at Hogwarts, our school's unique, yeah Oh, it's Nitwit, Blubber, baby, Oddment and Tweak! (FACULTY CHORUS) & DUMBLEDORE (Right here at Hogwarts) Appetites increased (Right here at Hogwarts) Let's dig in and feast (Right here at Hogwarts) Percy says I'm mad (Right here at Hogwarts) Just a bit, he adds (Right here at Hogwarts, Hogwarts!) DUMBLEDORE To play for your team see Madam Hooch for Quidditch trials Mm-Mm, and Filch reminds us to keep all his hallways free of spells Right here at Hogwarts, you'll touch the sky, yeah Shun the right hall on the third floor, or else you'll die (STUDENT CHORUS) & DUMBLEDORE (Right here at Hogwarts) It's a brand new start (Right here at Hogwarts) We teach magic arts (Right here at Hogwarts) Stay here seven years (Right here at Hogwarts) Launch wizard careers (Right here at Hogwarts, Hogwarts!) DUMBLEDORE Oooooh, right here at Hogwarts, learn charms and brews, yeah But in music there's a magic beyond all we do The next section is sung to any tune *except* Under the Boardwalk. (STUDENT CHORUS) & DUMBLEDORE (Right here at Hogwarts) It's the time to croon (Right here at Hogwarts) Just choose your own tune (Right here at Hogwarts) March to your own drum (Right here at Hogwarts) Though it may sound dumb (Right here at Hogwarts, Hogwarts!) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated yesterday with 40 new filks) From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 13:29:49 2002 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 06:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Request for opinions (and reasons to justify them) In-Reply-To: <20021001073406.91420.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021001132949.67734.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44741 --- Moonstruck wrote: > I'm of the opinion that Ron won't die -- or if it > does, it will be at the end of the series. > I say that for two reasons: (a) JKR has set the stage > in GoF for something serious to develop between Ron > and Hermione -- plot-wise, it makes no sense to start > such a seemingly important subplot only to abandon it > in the next book by killing Ron, Ah, but think of poor Hermione, left behind just as she's starting to realize the depth of her feelings for Ron and they've barely begun to explore their relationship. Think of the pathos! You don't know how much you'll miss someone until they're gone. > and (b) Ron hasn't > come into his own yet -- JKR has given us many reasons > to believe that Ron has the potential to become a > great wizard, but to do so, he's going to have to > emerge from the shadows of his brothers and Harry and > Hermione and find confidence in himself. It's going to > take more than one book for Ron to reach that level of > independence, and I simply refuse to belive that JKR > is going to kill Ron before he comes to peace with > himself and realizes his true potential. Ah, but picture this. Ron spends most of the book being overlooked as always, Harry's faithful friend, Hermione's possible love (but she's too involved in studying for her OWLS to spend much time with him). The sidekick, the backup, good ol' "always there" Ron. When doom sweeps up on them, as it always does, Ron is the one to recognize what's playing out, with his strategist's mind. Ron is the one who realizes that a sacrifice has to be made to let the game advance. For Harry to carry on like he has to, someone *else* has to fall. And so he sacrifices himself...and in doing so, everyone finally realizes how much they'd taken him for granted, how they'd never realized how important he was just to BE there. Finally everyone recognizes Ron for the wonder he is...but it's too late for poor Ron to appreciate it. :~( Partially devil's advocate there, but just pointing out how it's possible. :) As you said, the chess game in PS/SS is an *immense* bit of foreshadowing. Ron also was willing to put himself in danger to save Harry in POA when facing down Sirius. Add in the 13th person portent and "we've taken what you'll greatly miss", and I have to conclude the worst. I really think that Ron will end up sacrificing himself for Harry's sake, as much as it pains me to admit it. Personally, I also don't think it'll come at Book 5. I think it will be at the end of Book 6, possibly written obliquely enough that we don't really know if he's dead or not until Book 7. His death will then give Harry the final impetus for the Big Showdown in Book 7. I absolutely adore Ron and it will *kill* me to read that, but I think it's written in the stars. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Oct 1 10:50:42 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 10:50:42 -0000 Subject: Translation questions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44742 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "brainiac613" wrote: > > So, here's my question... > > Has anyone else here read any non-English translations of the HP > books? What did you think? > > > "brainiac613" I am from Germany, so logically I have read the German translation. They aren't as good as the books in English. In the German translation, the explanations and sentences are always much more dramatical, than in the original. For example "Chamber of secrets" is translated into "Chamber of terror" or the last sentence of book 4, "we will face it, when it does", is translated into something with "fight". What I like about the German translation is, that most of the names are still the same like in the original version. Some names are changed, Hermione into Hermione, Rita Skeeter into Rita Kimmkorn, Marge into Magda, Privet Drive into Ligusterweg and Crookshanks into Krummbein and Scabbers into Kraetze. But in all the other languages, there are much more name changes, as in the German one, this is a positive aspect of the German translation. Hickengruendler From myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 12:35:33 2002 From: myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com (myphilosophy2001) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 12:35:33 -0000 Subject: Book 5 - Will Hagrid Die? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44743 There's been some discussion lately about who's going to bite the big one in OoP, Ron and Hagrid being the main suspects. It's been my contention for awhile now that Hagrid will die, but I noticed a very striking parallel that only furthers my suspicions. (BTW, I tried to check the archives for past discussion on this matter but could find nothing -- please forgive me if this has been brought up all ready). Has anybody else noticed the similarities between Hagrid and Frank Bryce? Both of them were considered suspects for crimes actually committed by Voldemort and were subsequently either mistrusted and/or unfairly punished even after it was decided there was no solid evidence proving their guilt. Both are groundskeepers for the very places where their supposed crimes took place. The only difference thus far? Frank Bryce is killed by Voldemort. Does this mean Hagrid will meet the same fate. I'm curious what others make of this. -Jessica From htfulcher at comcast.net Tue Oct 1 12:38:07 2002 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 12:38:07 -0000 Subject: Somebody please save Ron! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44744 Well, this was going to address the "Save Ron" thread, but it also falls into my terror at the thought of Ron's possible death in one of the future volumes. bboy_mn writes: > > I'm going to stray from Canon [snip] (and) hope Ron does something so obviously and independently heroic that no one can possibly ignore him. So heroic, that while still Harry's friend, he is not basking in Harry's reflected glory. >[big snip] > Among chess players, the Philosopher's Stone chess game against McGonnagall's chess set was the most noble, brave, and heroic game of chess ever played in the entire history of the world. Having started the opinion request thread because I would be so heartbroken if Ron were to die (and this thread seems to have spun off from that), I'd like to put an op in. Several comments have argued in favour of Ron's death, and bboy_mn would almost seem to concur, due to indications of Ron's low self- esteem. dcyasser notes: >But what I want to see most in Book 5 is someone to save Ron -- not necessarily from death, but from a complete absence of self-worth. I'd submit that Ron has shown a sense of self-worth, despite a somewhat "Why is everything I own rubbish!" persona (remember that line?). A person who can make that kind of comment does have a sense of self-worth (a la, "I deserve better, but I'm not getting it.") What IS evident in Ron is a lack of competitiveness -- which would fit with his coming from such a large brood. He's seen Bill and Charley make their mark in their own ways, watched Percy obsess with making it, and also observed Fred and George (or is it George and Fred) opt for avenues of success that they can find personally fulfilling (and fun!). This all would indicate not a lack of self- esteem, but a more complex approach to finding his way in life. O sure, he reckons he's not as good as Percy, or Fred and George, but here again; he's not competitive. I've known many 'Rons' in my life and strangely enough they usually seem to make good of themselves in the end. And consider Ron's chessmanship. It has been noted that Ron has a keen sense of strategy. Rightly so. I would rather interpret Ron's various comments, or JKR's assessments of Ron as being Harry's (somewhat limited due to age) POV. Sure, Ron fishes for a compliment when Mad Eye Moody suggests that both Harry and Hermione would make good Aurors. But I would suggest that in GoF the whole tantrum episode (so painful to read!) when Harry and Ron are at odds shows a definite defiance from accepting the two-dimensional expendable side-kick role. Katey also notes: >in SS one of the centaurs says that it's always the innocent who go first. I think he was referencing the dead unicorn they found in the forest, but I also think it's foreshadowing. To the SHIP threads that envision a Harry/Hermione future, I agree with those who rather expect a Ron/Hermione one. It's quite typical of boys at the GoF age to be alternately shy, hostile and dismissive of the one girl they really have strong feelings for. The comment Hermione makes that `next time ask me first,' which Ron doesn't get but Harry does, is no indication that Harry is the more likely ultimate target for Hermione's affection. From Harry's dispassionate perspective (romantically speaking) it would be naturally easier for him to see Ron's obvious feelings for Hermione than Ron would himself at the time. That would tie in with the comments that JKR would not have spent so much time sub-plotting a future Ron/Hermione relationship only to kill Ron off in the next book. But consider: Ron's jealousy, while obviously evidence of a certain lack of self worth (or self-confidence in romance, see above), also indicates here a realization that he should be `good enough'for Hermione. Ron is coming into his own as an independent person, recognizing that he has legitimate needs and desires that deserve fulfillment as much as Harry or anyone else. Of course, this rambling note presents me with a quandary. Ron's growing sense of entitlement could well be the very thing others have suggested (more or less) which will lead to his death. While I would believe that Ron is already shown to be brave enough to sacrifice himself for Harry if need be, the desire to stand in his own sunlight could be the very vehicle He Who Must Not Be Named could use to ensnare him to his downfall. And as to the Ron/Hermione SHIP issue (noted above), it would be typical of JKR's greatness as a writer, in a series that grows more complex and mature with each volume, to set up the scenario for the relationship and then have Ron die. The growing sense of realism and tragedy would easily allow for that. (Has anyone commented on Voldemort as the ultimate terrorist?) Again, I fear for Ron's life as the story unfolds. Yet, I defend him against those who find him needing encouragement. I think those posts just reveal how much we all love Ron as one of the most wonderful characters of JKR's imaginative genius. "htfulcher" From ronib at mindspring.com Tue Oct 1 14:32:38 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 14:32:38 -0000 Subject: Request for opinions (Glory for Ron!)/Defense of Ginny In-Reply-To: <20021001073406.91420.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44745 >MarEprhaim said: > >One of the more prevalent predictions in the OoP >Predictions Derby is that the more oft noted beloved >of Harry who will die in Book 5 is Ron (other top >contender, Hagrid). As Ron has always been the more >interesting and humourous character of the cast of >principles I found this speculation most distressing. >(snip) Has anyone picked up any evidence from canon or >otherwise that would support this possibility? >Jessica Wrote: > >I'm of the opinion that Ron won't die -- or if it >does, it will be at the end of the series. >bboy_mn: > >I'm going to stray from Canon which means that right now the >moderators are probably aiming a very big cannon at me. > >I hope Ron does something so obviously and independantly heroic that >no one can possibly ignore him. So heroic, that while still Harry's >friend, he is not basking in Harry's reflectd glory. > me: I have no will-power to resist such temptation. Please, don't shoot me either. I'm going to go out on a real limb here to say that I don't believe that any of the Trio will die. That said, the only one I could possibly see being killed is Ron (please NO!!), but not until the very end. Here's why: Beyond being overshadowed by his family and his friends, what truly bothers Ron? More consistently than giant spiders, it's his family's poverty. I am completely convinced JKR has not brought this issue up *repeatedly* in every book just to let it disappear with Ron's death. This is even more documented that speculations about a Ron?Herione SHIP. I believe that this obsession with money (or lack of it) will be seen as his Achille's heel. Sometime, probably in the 7th book, but maybe before, someone (Voldy or one of his henchmen) will offer Ron great wealth and power to sell-out Harry (an offer he can't refuse, or hopefully he can!). When he realizes that the material possessions he has so long dreamed of are nothing compared to true friendship, he will reject this offer in such a way that earns for himself fame beyond anything his brothers ever did. This *could* also lead to his sad demise, if that is indeed his fate. BUT . . . I really think we will lose two or three secondary characters, but that JKR will let the Trio survive. Dumbledore, I think will be leaving us. Like Gandalf's role was to assist in the destruction of Sauron, Dumblesdore's purpose is to defeat Voldemort. Once Voldy is defeated in the end, or possibly before, we will have to say good-bye to our beloved Headmaster (meaning a promotion for McGonagall, and an opening for a Transfiguration teacher, which I speculate Hermione will take.) I think we will probably also lose Lupin (sniff, sniff!), and I am concerned for Sirius and Hagrid. But we (and more importantly the young readers), have invested too much emotional capital in Harry, Ron, and Hermione. I have faith that JKR won't betray those readers. >Lilac wrote: > >In fact, I see little hints that Ginny is maturing throughout the >series. >From me: Yeah! Thank you for making some excellent points I was screaming myself (much to the dismay of my co-workers). Just look at the scene in GoF (I really need my books back so I can specify the page) where she is comforting Ron after he has asked Fleur to the Yule Ball. Sitting there with Ron and Harry, she seems pretty comfortable. No, she is not a member of the Trio, but she is a welcome member of a slightly extended group. Sure there is some uneasiness when she explains that she can't attend with Harry because she said she agreed to go with Neville. But, overall, that scene shows how she has matured, even when dealing with Harry. Veronica ------------------------------------------------------ The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. - Mark Twain From bobbins29 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 1 15:06:07 2002 From: bobbins29 at hotmail.com (cockneyrebe1) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 15:06:07 -0000 Subject: Education Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44746 Apologies if this has been brought up numerous times in the past, this is my first post on here :) With the exception of muggle-born wizards, it seems that members of the magical community receive no education before joining Hogwarts. I believe J. K. Rowling has said in an interview (I don't know the link) that wizard primary schools and universities don't exist. If this is true, then: - Just what do child wizards do with their time pre-Hogwarts? Perhaps they are taught at home by a private tutor, but presumably this would be costly. If no free education exists, then what of the Weasleys, who surely couldn't afford to pay a teacher? Mrs. Weasley is a housewife, but how could she make the time to teach her seven children? If they did in fact receive no education, how come they're not, well, a bit dim? - Are we to assume that wizards have no concept of mathematics, history, geography, etc. etc.? Literacy and numeracy are generally considered the foundations of intelligence in the muggle world, so why do wizards not hold the same view? In PS, Hermione tells Harry that most wizards don't have an ounce of logic. Later, in PoA, we learn she is taking arithmancy, but Ron and Harry are not. Mathematics, it seems, is optional at Hogwarts. Why is it not considered important? Perhaps, since magic *is* illogical, science subjects become irrelevant. But language is surely just as important to wizards and muggles alike? Presumably Beaubatons and Durmstrang teach English, but Hogwarts does not seem to teach foreign languages or english literature. Lastly, if no universities exist in the wizard world, how did Hogwarts teachers become Professors? Is "professor" just a throw- away term in the books? Can anyone become one? Is Hagrid a Professor? Do Hogwarts-leavers go straight into work, like Percy did? That's it for now - sorry it's long and I'm even more sorry if this has all been said before. There's nothing worse than someone new rattling on about, say, Dumbledore's gleam of triumph in GoF! From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 15:08:26 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:08:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: End of Harry Potter Series In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021001033447.0098e8b0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <20021001150826.92377.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44747 GulPlum wrote: At 22:00 30/09/02 +0000, bohcoo wrote: >There are numerous references like that throughout the books about this just being a dream, that was only a dream, Harry expecting to wake and find he had only dreamed this or that had happened, etc. > >It would be a tidy way to end the series -- but I hope I am wrong, don't you? Me: I suppose one could think of such an ending as "tidy." It would, however, be very similar to the ending of the television series St. Elsewhere; in the final episode, the "real world" is revealed to be one in which Dr. Westphal is really a construction worker and Dr. Auschlander is his elderly father, who takes care of his autistic son all day. The previous years' stories about the people at the hospital were supposedly all in the mind of the autistic boy... It is also similar to a less-well-regarded series (deservedly so, IMO), Dallas. I wasn't even watching the show any more at the time it occurred, but after one season, in which the producers evidently realized (belatedly) that they'd been inflicting utter dreck on the viewing public since the first episode, decided that it was all a dream of one of the characters, so they wouldn't be forced to build on that season's storylines in subsequent shows. It was roundly criticized as a cop-out and a lame attempt to salvage the series. GulPlum wrote: In brief, I'll summarise my own view that I find it deeply unsatisfying for Hogwarts et al to be nothing but a boy's dream. My main issue (which I don't think anyone else made here, and I don't have the time to go through the archives to check right now) with this thesis is that the Potterverse isn't the kind of fantasy world a downtrodden boy under the stairs would create. Firstly, and for me most importantly, boyhood fantasies revolve around being a great hero. Harry in the books (at least to date) is very largely an accidental hero, and he does not relish being thought of as anything but ordinary. He has no special abilities; in fact, he is average or below-average in just about every respect, and we are constantly reminded of this fact (he's small, studying doesn't come easily to him, etc) and in fact the only thing at which he has proven to be unnaturally adept is at summoning a Patronus, i.e. his father. Psychologically speaking, the Potterverse is quite simply much to complex to be the fantasy of a teenage boy. Me: There's really no way to prove this, one way or the other. Harry was a fantasy created by JKR, and you could also argue that it is extraordinarily unlikely for a woman on welfare, writing in cafes while she cares for her infant daughter, to create such a fantasy world. Stranger things have happened. As for Harry being the "accidental" hero, that might in fact be exactly the sort of hero a boy would imagine himself being. Someone with nothing extraordinary about him who triumphs anyway. Other than the standard finding-out-you-are-really-the-heir-to-the-throne fantasy, isn't that very common? GulPlum wrote: Furthermore, not only do his adventures not start with him attempting to save his friends, but he actively (though not deliberately) puts them in danger; only *then* does he attempt to save them. And he is unable to save them without help, be it from caring adults or those friends. Me: That would seem to be part of the fantasy: having supportive adults and good friends around him. One would assume that in "real life" he does not. As for the friends being in danger, if he doesn't imagine that to have happened he can't very well rescue them, can he? GulPlum wrote: I also find the Latin and constant references to Greek mythology to be far too erudite for an ordinary child being brought up in England on the cusp of the 21st century. Of course, if these are the fantasies not of a downtrodden boy under the stairs but a well-educated, well-looked after child, then *why* is he creating this fantasy? Children create imaginary worlds to escape real-world problems around them (not only children - most adult writers address the problems they see around them in their work!), so a happy child would not imagine the Potterverse. And if the fantasy world *is* that of a downtrodden child, the final "return to reality" would need to explain just why he's downtrodden and why nobody likes him. Accepting the Potterverse as is, Harry's treatment by the Dursleys is directly connected to the "fantasy" elements. Me: It's hardly a stretch to imagine that someone living under the stairs would want books to read to occupy his time, which could include volumes about mythology and folklore, and in many British schools, Latin is still taught, although other modern languages are evidently more common these days. As for whether a well-off child would need to retreat into fantasy, I think the answer is no. And if this is what the whole series comes down to, it's even entirely possible that, compared to Harry's "reality," the Dursleys are downright cuddly. In fact, the very undignified situations and comeuppances that the Dursleys regularly experience sound exactly like the sorts of things a boy would fantasize about if he were being oppressed even a tenth of the amount Harry is. GulPlum wrote: All in all, then, the series' outcome as nothing but a long dream would be a major cop-out for me, and particularly hollow. The "moral" of the story would also lose a considerable amount of its impact: "it's all a dream, it doesn't matter"! Me: I don't need for the wizarding world to be "real" (to Harry). I don't think any story with a moral becomes of no worth if we find out it didn't happen. It DIDN'T happen, remember? It was created by JKR. I agree in part about the cop-out judgment, though, IF it's a dream (I agreed with the general consensus on the Dallas cop-out). Although I appreciated the irony of the St. Elsewhere ending (I believe the producers were really trying to forestall "reunion" specials and the like) there were many things that occurred during the course of the series that made it highly unlikely that an autistic boy imagined the events. OTOH, JKR has been very careful to write the HP series from Harry's POV, with minor exceptions. It's entirely plausible that a person living in isolation could make all of this up, frankly. A dream I don't like; an invention of Harry's I do not mind. GulPlum wrote: On the other hand, I fear that JKR just might be going down a road just like this. Sorry, I can't find it right now, but a couple of weeks ago I was looking for something else in the archives of JKR's interviews, when I was shocked (in this context) to read JKR's reply to a question along the lines of "do you believe in magic?". In her answer, she said something like "no, I don't, and that will be very clear once people have had the chance to read all seven books". Someone better than I at searching the archives may be able to produce the exact quote, but the impression I got was that at the end of the series, the wizarding world will be shown to be non-existant. I just hope I completely misunderstood what she was trying to say. :-) Me: That's an interesting quote. That puts her other statements about "How can you be so sure I won't kill Harry" in a new light. She might have been referring to a metaphorical death, as in our discovering that there was never a Harry Potter, boy wizard, only a Harry Potter, poor kid in the cupboard who had nothing but his overactive imagination to keep himself going. However, if that proves to be the case, I still think that such a person being able to go out into the world, having survived whatever horrible childhood he was subjected to (abusive foster home?) and bearing the memories of the world he created would constitute a triumph, not a tragedy, since that world sustained and comforted him through a very difficult time. I would not mind at all if it turned out to be in Harry's head (not a dream, but a deliberate invention) because that would mean he's a person who can turn a miserable life into an uplifting story of the triumph of good over evil. That might, in fact, be the best lesson we and our children can take away from the HP books. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bobbins29 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 1 15:22:12 2002 From: bobbins29 at hotmail.com (cockneyrebe1) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 15:22:12 -0000 Subject: Book 5 - Will Hagrid Die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44748 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "myphilosophy2001" wrote: > There's been some discussion lately about who's going to bite the big > one in OoP, Ron and Hagrid being the main suspects. > > It's been my contention for awhile now that Hagrid will die, but I > noticed a very striking parallel that only furthers my suspicions. > (BTW, I tried to check the archives for past discussion on this > matter but could find nothing -- please forgive me if this has been > brought up all ready). > > Has anybody else noticed the similarities between Hagrid and Frank > Bryce? > > Both of them were considered suspects for crimes actually committed > by Voldemort and were subsequently either mistrusted and/or unfairly > punished even after it was decided there was no solid evidence > proving their guilt. > > Both are groundskeepers for the very places where their supposed > crimes took place. > > The only difference thus far? Frank Bryce is killed by Voldemort. > > Does this mean Hagrid will meet the same fate. > > I'm curious what others make of this. > > -Jessica Personally, I also have a hunch that Hagrid will indeed become one of Voldemort's victims, but for slightly different reasons, the most prominent being Robbie Coltrane's ambiguous reply about whether he'd been signed up for all the movies - he said "sort of". The parallels you mention are interesting - I hadn't thought about it before. In general, I tend to think that all the parallels JKR draws between different characters will not follow through to the end. For example, Neville and Peter are similar, but I doubt Neville will turn evil. I just get the impression JKR is going to quash many of the parallels she has drawn later on. History repeats itself, but not to the extent that free will becomes meaningless. From Littlered32773 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 15:30:31 2002 From: Littlered32773 at yahoo.com (oz_widgeon) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 15:30:31 -0000 Subject: End of Harry Potter Series In-Reply-To: <20021001150826.92377.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44749 >> It struck me as I reread the books that Rowling has been >> foreshadowing the ending of the Harry Potter series all the way >> through the books: Unfortunately, I think she is going to have >> Harry awake from a dream, at the age of 17 or 18, living with the >> Dursleys - - with a thought that he had just had some incredible, >> fantastic dream. And then he will set about his life, as an >> ordinary person. That way, we won't have to wonder what happened to >> everyone throughout the years to come, and so on. > SNIP > >> It would be a tidy way to end the series -- but I hope I am wrong, >> don't you? >> >> "bohcoo" I had not considered this possibility, but now I'm thinking about it, and it irritates me. If this is how it worked out, I would be MAD. I HATE books and TV shows that end like this. Anyone remember Sue Ellen (I think) waking to find Bobby in the shower in the TV show 'Dallas'? I was pretty young (my parents were huge fans), but it stuck with me, and still irks me today. :) The whole "dream" thing shows a lack of planning and imagination on the writers part. They've painted (or written) themselves into a box and the only way out is to make it all a dream (cop out, cop out, cop out!!!). I think we all know that JK has done plenty of planning, and does not lack imagination, so I'm HOPING this is not how it will turn out. My irritation is fading, but it will be in the back of my mind now until I ahve book 7 in my hands. ARGH!!!!! From olivia at serpensortia.com Tue Oct 1 15:29:10 2002 From: olivia at serpensortia.com (Olivia) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 11:29:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Education In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44750 cockneyrebe1 said: (Sorry so impersonal, you didn't leave a first name. :) ) "Apologies if this has been brought up numerous times in the past, this is my first post on here :)" Actually it has and there have been some very interesting thoughts so you should definitely search through the archives to see what's been brought up before. "Are we to assume that wizards have no concept of mathematics, history, geography, etc. etc.?" It's very possible that they're tutored at home, or some may be sent to Muggle schools, or what they know before they go to Hogwarts they simply pick up. At Hogwarts, though, they do get a very rounded education even if it's not as obvious as our Muggle educations. History of Magic: History of Magic is the course most familiar to us Muggles. They learn about the history that's important to them. Since most wizards and witches don't spend a lot of time in the Muggle world, they really don't need to know about our history. Just as American children don't spend a lot of time learning about Chinese history and vice versa, little wizards and witches don't spend a whole lot of time learning about Muggle history. I don't think they'll ever have to know the precise dates of the American Civil War battles. We also know that they write more than a few essays for Professor Binns which includes English, grammar, and writing. It doesn't sound like Binns (or any of their other professors, for that matter) would let them get away with sloppily written essays. Potions: Potions is chemistry. And just as chemistry requires a good understanding of mathematics, so does Potions. They have to be very precise in their measurements and some Potions seem to be very time-sensitive. It also requires a good bit of logic and deduction. Plus they're learning about the different ingredients they're using, so there's a little basic science in there as well. And, of course, more essays. Herbology and Care of Magical Creatures: More science that's further down on the Biology end of the science spectrum. I wouldn't be surprised if they also learned about anatomy and physiology as well. Arithmancy: Math, obviously, plus more logic and deduction. What was Hermione thinking when she said wizards have no logic? She very well could have been referring to Muggle logic. After all, it's said in PoA that she was drawing diagrams of Muggles manually lifting objects for her Muggle Studies class. To us, that's as natural and logical as anything. If we drop something, we bend over and pick it up. But to a wizard, it can be just as easy as pointing their wand and levitating to their height. But to a Muggle, that's not logical. And then there's the magic classes which rely almost entirely on Latin. And if anyone's taken even the most basic Latin course before, they'll know that once you learn many of the most common roots, you can define any word off of that root. By learning Latin, they're learning English. "Perhaps, since magic *is* illogical, science subjects become irrelevant." I see that they get more science than anything else. Potions, Herbology, Care of Magical Creatures. It's the science of magic. Just because they aren't memorizing the periodic table, doesn't mean they aren't getting science. "Lastly, if no universities exist in the wizard world, how did Hogwarts teachers become Professors? Is "professor" just a throw-away term in the books? Can anyone become one? Is Hagrid a Professor?" I don't know if calling it a "throw-away term" is really fair. The professors might not have a Muggle-like degree, but they are all fully qualified for their positions. It seems like they all have jobs they love and have them because they are good at them. Professor Snape most likely excelled at Potions when he was at Hogwarts and therefore it was a natural progression for him to enter the field when he decided to teach. It seems as though they use the word Professor as a term of respect; they're acknowledging the position they hold and the work they do. Hagrid is a teacher, therefore a professor, but he most likely told the students to just keep calling him, "Hagrid." He's not really a "Professor Hagrid" kind of guy. "Do Hogwarts-leavers go straight into work, like Percy did?" It would appear to be that way. But Percy didn't go right to the top of the Ministry of Magic, he started as an assistant, almost like an apprentice. He's learning his trade just as Hagrid learned how to do his job before he took over. And Dumbledore, as well, started out as a teacher and worked his way up. "That's it for now - sorry it's long and I'm even more sorry if this has all been said before. There's nothing worse than someone new rattling on about, say, Dumbledore's gleam of triumph in GoF!" It's an interesting topic and, like I said, you really should seek out some of the previous discussions in the archive. This was talked about not too long ago and I liked a lot of the ideas people brought up. Welcome to HPforGrownups! Olivia, who really needs to get back to work. :) From fun_n_games_2663 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 15:15:57 2002 From: fun_n_games_2663 at yahoo.com (fun_n_games_2663) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 15:15:57 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat/ Voldemort's compitence/ Request for opinions In-Reply-To: <018c01c268f1$1b8e1aa0$c39fcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44751 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: Richelle writes: > > Ah, but he couldn't face a wandless Harry. Because that can't happen until > the truth about Harry's (and Lily's) eyes comes out. Which I believe will > be that they can do magic with their eyes. A more focused magic than > ordinary witches/wizards can without wands. Perhaps more powerful. and continues: > So in my opinion, Voldemort won't be stupid enough to have Harry disarmed > and then give him back his wand again. But I don't really think they will > meet again until the final confrontation in book 7. Plenty of DE's, yes, > Voldemort, no. Possibly a brief encounter in book 6, not sure. But when it > all comes down in Book 7, if Voldemort does get Harry's wand away from him, > I don't think he'll give it back. But then there's those > eyes . . . > My response: I have always been of the opinion that Harry carries a remnant of the Avada Kadavra curse that gave him his scar in his eyes. I know that people always remark that he has his mother's eyes, but JKR also always describes his eyes as "brilliant" green. That is also the same adjective used to describe the flash of green light issued from a wand performing the avada kadavra curse. Further, we have seen that the curse that gave him his scar has left other remnants, such as being able to speak parseltounge, and being linked to Voldy by his dreams. I think Richelle is right, Harry probably does have some magic in his eyes. But I also think he can perform the killing curse with them, perhaps without even meaning to--such as if his he is backed into a corner (without a wand) and full of hatred and revenge. Now, I'll really go out on a limb. JKR has said that, as it currently stands, the last word of book 7 is "scar". Ever since I read that, I have written that sentence for myself to read something like: (Dumbledore speaking)"Harry, wandless, killed Voldemort with the very same curse that gave him his scar." Thoughts? fun 'n games. From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Oct 1 15:46:02 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:46:02 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Request for opinions (Glory for Ron!)/Defense of Ginny In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9466594681.20021001084602@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44752 Hi, Tuesday, October 01, 2002, 7:32:38 AM, Veronica wrote: > Sometime, probably in the 7th book, > but maybe before, someone (Voldy or one of his henchmen) will offer > Ron great wealth and power to sell-out Harry (an offer he can't > refuse, or hopefully he can!). I don't know, maybe I'm naive, but I can't really see Ron in his right mind even consider selling Harry out for wealth and power given to him by Voldemort. What I think Ron wants, is to earn money and recognition himself, not have it given to him by someone for doing something as low as offering his friend to LV. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From gliese229b at aol.com Tue Oct 1 15:21:12 2002 From: gliese229b at aol.com (qaztroc) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 15:21:12 -0000 Subject: End of Harry Potter Series In-Reply-To: <563304AD.4D2FD593.0290C41F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44753 > bohcoo" wrote: > > > It struck me as I reread the books that Rowling has been > > > foreshadowing the ending of the Harry Potter series all the way > > > through the books: Unfortunately, I think she is going to have > > Harry > > > awake from a dream, at the age of 17 or 18, living with the > > Dursleys - > > > - with a thought that he had just had some incredible, > > fantastic > > > dream. > Then Katey replied: I'm not much of a writer, but my english teacher last year told us that ending a story with the character waking up and everything having been a dream is the ultimate cop-out. I don't think she'll do that. She's too good a writer and has read enough stories to know what makes a good one, and the ending having the character waking up is not one of them. and remember, Rowling said the last chapter will basically be an epilogue, saying what happens to the survivers. Now Me: I totally agree with Katey. And speaking of epilogue, one must not forget that Book 1 starts with a prologue of sorts, and this prologue is not consistent with the it-was-all-a-dream narrative structure. If you want to work a consistent it-was-all-a-dream story, you need to have a prologue and epilogue that fit together like the front and back covers of a book. To be really consistent, it has to work out like this: [reality]-[dream]-[back to reality]. But the first chapter in Book 1 ("The boy who lived") starts with wizards and witches right away and, besides, is not even told from Harry's point of view. By ending book 7 with Harry awakening, this first chapter would make little sense. If book 1 were to start with "The vanishing glass" instead, then yes, it would indeed be very tempting to suspect that the whole series may possibly be a "dream" story. But IMHO, the way Book 1 starts rules out this hypothesis completely. The grand structure of the series would be too awkward, and we all know how JKR's stories are amazingly well structured. -- Qaztroc From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Oct 1 15:54:51 2002 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 15:54:51 -0000 Subject: Education In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44754 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "cockneyrebe1" wrote: > Apologies if this has been brought up numerous times in the past, > this is my first post on here :) > > With the exception of muggle-born wizards, it seems that members of > the magical community receive no education before joining Hogwarts. > I believe J. K. Rowling has said in an interview (I don't know the > link) that wizard primary schools and universities don't exist. If > this is true, then: > > - Just what do child wizards do with their time pre-Hogwarts? > > Perhaps they are taught at home by a private tutor, but presumably > this would be costly. If no free education exists, then what of the > Weasleys, who surely couldn't afford to pay a teacher? Mrs. Weasley > is a housewife, but how could she make the time to teach her seven > children? > If they did in fact receive no education, how come they're not, well, > a bit dim? > My assumption is that they receive some sort of informal education and learn the "basics" of reading, writing and arithmetic. In terms of things like natural science and history, I think they receive the instruction on that as well. True they do teach a History class at Hogwarts, but like in the real world, I think there are some historical basics that are learned outside of the classroom. It's like that Mark Twain quote: "I never let schooling interfere with my education". > Literacy and numeracy are generally considered the foundations of > intelligence in the muggle world, so why do wizards not hold the same > view? > In PS, Hermione tells Harry that most wizards don't have an ounce of > logic. Later, in PoA, we learn she is taking arithmancy, but Ron and > Harry are not. Mathematics, it seems, is optional at Hogwarts. Why > is it not considered important? Arithmancy is a type of divination using mathematics. Harry and Ron also take a divination class: Trelawney's. In terms of logic, there are some very real world people who don't appear to contain half an ounce ;-) But it also reminds me of a passage in "Lion, Witch and Wardrobe" where the Professor is incredulous that the children can't logically problem solve and wonders if they still teach logic in schools. > Perhaps, since magic *is* illogical, science subjects become > irrelevant. But language is surely just as important to wizards and > muggles alike? Presumably Beaubatons and Durmstrang teach English, > but Hogwarts does not seem to teach foreign languages or english > literature. > Good point. Perhaps this is Rowling's jab at Anglo-centricity? > Lastly, if no universities exist in the wizard world, how did > Hogwarts teachers become Professors? Is "professor" just a throw- > away term in the books? Can anyone become one? Is Hagrid a > Professor? I think "professor" is what the teachers at Hogwarts are called and don't particularly refer to an advanced educational degree of any sort. > Do Hogwarts-leavers go straight into work, like Percy did? > Charlie Weasley, according to Ron in PS/SS, went to Romania to "study" dragons. Whether that means Charlie was involved in some kind of post-Hogwarts training specializing in dragons or that means Charlie began working as a dragon expert is open to debate. I think, however, that there aren't any "formal" post-Hogwarts degrees/training, but rather informal apprentice/clerkships for further study/training in a particular field. I think the systems mimics the medieval trades in that regard where if one chooses one works begins as an apprentice works their way up to a master. --Milz From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Oct 1 17:04:59 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 17:04:59 -0000 Subject: End of the Harry Potter Series/SHIP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44755 Dumbledore believes that somewhere inside Harry, some bit of Voldemort lurks. We know that Voldemort can be regenerated from the merest scrap of existence, "less than spirit, less than the meanest ghost." We've also seen many times that Harry would rather face death than be parted from the magical world. That makes me think that separation, not martyrdom, will be the sacrifice which is the price of Voldemort's defeat. Not only might Harry have to give up his powers in order to defeat Voldemort, he may have to let the magical world believe he is dead. That could be the only way to make sure that no Death Eater ever finds him and tries to regenerate the part of Voldemort still surviving in Harry. H/H Shippers: would you find it a satisfying conclusion if Hermione left the wizarding world in order to be with Harry? Does the appeal of H/H rest in the closeness between Harry and Hermione which JKR has depicted, or in the romantic, not to say Ginny-esque, fantasy of lovers whose heroic powers set them apart from everyone else? Pippin From kaityf at jorsm.com Tue Oct 1 17:23:11 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 12:23:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: End of Harry Potter Series In-Reply-To: References: <563304AD.4D2FD593.0290C41F@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021001115758.02fe4e80@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44756 bohcoo wrote about the possibility that JKR will end the HP series with Harry waking up at the Dursley's after having a dream about Hogwarts. Katey replied: >I'm not much of a writer, but my english teacher last year told us >that ending a story with the character waking up and everything >having been a dream is the ultimate cop-out. I don't think she'll do >that. She's too good a writer and has read enough stories to know >what makes a good one, and the ending having the character waking up >is not one of them. and remember, Rowling said the last chapter will >basically be an epilogue, saying what happens to the survivers. Then Qaztroc added: > one must not >forget that Book 1 starts with a prologue of sorts, and this prologue >is not consistent with the it-was-all-a-dream narrative structure. >The grand >structure of the series would be too awkward, and we all know how >JKR's stories are amazingly well structured. I agree with both Katey and Qaztoc, both of whom provide excellent reasons for view that the series will not end with Harry waking up from dream. I, for one, would be more than disappointed in the series. I would be livid and my estimation of JKR's talent would take a nose dive. After having read bohcoo's thoughts about the series being the telling of a dream, I started thinking about the fact that as Harry gets older, the stories get darker and stylistically more "mature." People have commented on this before, saying that JKR does this to reflect Harry's maturity as the series continues. I started thinking that if the series were the telling of a dream, it would make sense that the style would become more mature and the tales darker. I'm quite pleased to see the great reasons Katey and Qaztroc provided to prove the dream theory unlikely. Also, JKR said in an interview that while she won't write an eight story about Harry's adventures, she might write an eighth book that will tie up all the loose ends. She said it would be a great way to use up all the things she knows about Hogwarts and the WW. It wouldn't be a novel, but it would answer many questions that people still have about the WW. That has to make me think that she has no intention of making the WW a dream world. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From rlundgren at gov.mb.ca Tue Oct 1 16:06:20 2002 From: rlundgren at gov.mb.ca (freya122000) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 16:06:20 -0000 Subject: Lucius opinions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44757 IMHO Lucius is the weak link in Voldy's DE. Lucius, I belive will be the down fall of Voldy. Not in a hero sense but simply because Lucius has no master but himself and his ambitions. He is only loyal to Voldy for as long as Voldy suites his needs. In fact, in some ways Lucius is more evil than Voldy. If I where Voldy the last person I would trust would be Lucius. He would turn on his own just to get what he wants. He is a very dangerous man. There are very few truly evil people in the world, however there are hundreds of sheep. Most of Vody's group fall into the sheep, Lucius is evil. No I don't belive Narcissa is happily married, she may be nothing like her husband and has no choice but to follow his lead. However we do not know enough about her to pass a judgement. Freya From penumbra10 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 17:02:52 2002 From: penumbra10 at yahoo.com (Judy M. Ellis) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 17:02:52 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on SHIPS-- Love as a Driving Force In-Reply-To: <20021001052051.53192.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44758 Jessica wrote: A long and very eloquent treatise on love as an essential force in the fight against the powers of darkness. To snip parts would be sacrilege. (We may argue the details, but I doubt if we can argue the essential truth of what she has said.) With all the dark fatalist talk of dread endings and isolation and death, this piece was a breath of fresh air. None of us can argue that love is a fundamental theme of these novels. Is JKR writing around an old cliche, "love conquers all?" Maybe, in her own, very unique way. I do have a feeling that in the climax of these novels, if Voldemort is to be defeated, love, not advanced spellwork, will be the most powerful weapon. Well said, Jessica. --Judy From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Oct 1 17:28:08 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 10:28:08 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: End of the Harry Potter Series/SHIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199472721048.20021001102808@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44759 Hi, Tuesday, October 01, 2002, 10:04:59 AM, pippin_999 wrote: > Not only might Harry have to give up his powers in order to defeat > Voldemort, he may have to let the magical world believe he is > dead. That could be the only way to make sure that no Death > Eater ever finds him and tries to regenerate the part of Voldemort > still surviving in Harry. But how would this work? After Pettigrew, I don't think it would be so easy to fake death without sure proof that it was really Harry. Bloody robes and a body part might not convince anyone anymore (I assume at least LV's supporters know about Pettigrew's little scheme by now). And I never got the feeling that living in the muggle world was all *that* safe in the first place. It's not as if there is an impenetrable border between the two worlds that can't be crossed. Concerning H/H: I hope both Harry and Hermione will have a choice who to share their lives with, powers or not, and not be destined to be together because they feel they *have to*. (this from a non shipper ) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From bobbins29 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 1 17:37:33 2002 From: bobbins29 at hotmail.com (cockneyrebe1) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 17:37:33 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat/ Voldemort's compitence/ Request for opinions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44760 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > Richelle writes: > > > > > Ah, but he couldn't face a wandless Harry. Because that can't > happen until > > the truth about Harry's (and Lily's) eyes comes out. Which I > believe will > > be that they can do magic with their eyes. A more focused magic > than > > ordinary witches/wizards can without wands. Perhaps more > powerful. > > > fun_n_games_2663's response: > > I have always been of the opinion that Harry carries a remnant of the > Avada Kadavra curse that gave him his scar in his eyes. I know that > people always remark that he has his mother's eyes, but JKR also > always describes his eyes as "brilliant" green. That is also the > same adjective used to describe the flash of green light issued from > a wand performing the avada kadavra curse. Further, we have seen > that the curse that gave him his scar has left other remnants, such > as being able to speak parseltounge, and being linked to Voldy by his > dreams. > > I think Richelle is right, Harry probably does have some magic in his > eyes. But I also think he can perform the killing curse with them, > perhaps without even meaning to--such as if his he is backed into a > corner (without a wand) and full of hatred and revenge. > My own opinion of the eyes situation is very different, and purely speculative, based on no canon whatsoever. Green, and more specifically emerald, is associated with "future time energy" (http://library.thinkquest.org/25782/cmwdata.pl? get_file_path=informative/mood_and_behaviour/psychologyofcolour.cmw#Gr een). I think it's very possible that Harry could have real divination talents that could be used in the fight against Voldemort. In PoA time travel was already introduced - perhaps foreshadowing future events? Furthermore (and here's where my theory goes slightly crazy), if Harry is Gryffindor's heir (which I assume we all believe?), that would mean that a) Gryffindor appointed him(?), and b) as a relative of Gryffindor they both share some of the same qualities. What if he and Gryffindor were both seers? I know, I know, there's absolutely nothing that backs up anything I just said. I like the idea though! > Now, I'll really go out on a limb. JKR has said that, as it > currently stands, the last word of book 7 is "scar". Ever since I > read that, I have written that sentence for myself to read something > like: (Dumbledore speaking)"Harry, wandless, killed Voldemort with > the very same curse that gave him his scar." > > Thoughts? > > fun 'n games. I think something like, *As he looked in the mirror a frown fell across his face. "Where's my scar?"* would be really cute. - Fran, who is new and might as well take this opportunity to introduce herself. And to stop talking in the third person! I'm British, 20, and kind of a student (it's a long story) :) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 18:06:18 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 18:06:18 -0000 Subject: Education In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44761 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "cockneyrebe1" wrote: > cockneyrebe1 Asked: > With the exception of muggle-born wizards, it seems that members > of the magical community receive no education before joining > Hogwarts. I believe J. K. Rowling has said in an interview (I > don't know the link) that wizard primary schools and universities > don't exist. If this is true, then: > bboy_mn relies: First, I can't prove a single thing I say here. These are my own pet theories, and intuitive guesses. > - Just what do child wizards do with their time pre-Hogwarts? > bboy_mn: To some extent, I favor the old fashioned one room schoolhouse system. Small private primary schools that have a handful of kids from the general local area, who are taught by possibly one of the parents, or someone they know or perhaps a hired tutor. In any event, there are lots of these little self-contain private pocket of education scattered around. The size of each school is determined by the number of available kids. The school is paid for, althought the cost is modest, by the parent of the kids who are currently enrolled in school. As more and more muggle-borns and half muggles enter the wizard world, I think more and more kids will go to public or muggle private schools. On the other hand, I guess there could be a magical education spell. Cast a few charms, make you kids read a few books. A few weeks later, their educated. cockneyrebe1: > - Are we to assume that wizards have no concept of mathematics, > history, geography, etc. etc.? bboy_mn The word 'concept' here throws me off. The certainly have the knowledge and ability to work with numbers in the form of arithmetic, and while not formal, they must have an intuitive grasp of Algebra. Algebra being nothing more than a systematic method of structuring and solving problems. Certainly they have a concept and interest in history, but it's magic history. The history of things we mere muggle have never heard of. They do teach history at Hogwarts. But they don't teach Muggle national and muggle world history. Geography is more complex than 'can you find China on the globe'; as I learned in college. So in the sense of Geography as a research science, I say no. But in the sense of 'where is China on the map', I say yes. This comes in as it relates to history. Significant event in the history of the magical world, lead to to a knowledge of where those events took place. Certainly, most wizards are aware that there is a larger world out there and they are aware of the location of most of it's pieces. >cockneyrebe1: > Literacy and numeracy are generally considered the foundations of > intelligence in the muggle world, so why do wizards not hold the same > view? bboy_mn: Most magic people we have seen so far, can read and write, and can do arithmetic and basic intuitive math. So, I can't say the wizards don't value Literacy and numeracy. They are literate. I think perhaps your statement could be summurized as, in the muggle world, knowledge is power. In the magic world, magic is power. cockneyrebe1: > In PS, Hermione tells Harry that most wizards don't have an ounce of > logic. bboy_mn: Again, like math, logic to a muggle is a systematic method of problem solving. If a muggle wants to make a chair, he needs to make a great application of the problem solving skills of logic and math, not to mention the skilled use of tools. A magic person on the other hand, waves his wand and has a chair. There really is no problem to solve, and therefore, they have little need for the same type of analytical problem solving that a muggle does. A magic person would have a hard time solving the Riddle of the Potions, because he/she has never had to lay our a problem in a structured way, anaylize all the aspects, apply analytical thinking and structured problems solving, and arrive at a correct answer. These are all learned skills and few wizards have ever needed to learn them. cockneyrebe1: > Lastly, if no universities exist in the wizard world, how did > Hogwarts teachers become Professors? Is "professor" just a throw- > away term in the books? Can anyone become one? Is Hagrid a > Professor? bboy_mn: Obviously, a Professor is more than a teacher. Because Madam Hooch is a teacher and she is not addressed as professor. Hagrid is a teacher but not a professor. So now we come to another one of my pet theories. A muggle university degree has no legal standing. They are meaningless in themselves. It is only the reputation of the school that issues it, that gives it value. So, any respected wizard institution could issue degrees as it's own private certification of a wizards skill. My personal belief is that there are public and private organization that take it upon themselve to review the independant study, academic papers, and research of magic people. When the academic committees of these organizations feel that a wizard has demonstrated sufficient skill and knowledge, they will issue a professoriate (Professor Potter) or doctorate (Dr. Potter). That degree/certification is as good as the organization that issured it. So Charlie Weasley could get a professorship from his dragon research, if he submits his work for review. These oganization are not necessarily academic organizations. The International Confederation of Wizards which does lots of things, could also have an academic committee. cockneyrebe1: > Do Hogwarts-leavers go straight into work, like Percy did? bboy_mn: Everybody has to pay the rent somehow. So, yes, they look for a job. I think probably the best job is independant businessman. Like Fortescue or Ollivander, etc... So, there are my rambling thought on the subject. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 18:47:38 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 18:47:38 -0000 Subject: End of Harry Potter Series In-Reply-To: <20021001150826.92377.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44762 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barb P wrote: > Barb:: ....BMS....Big Mega Snip... > > That's an interesting quote. That puts her other statements about "How can you be so sure I won't kill Harry" in a new light. She might have been referring to a metaphorical death, as in our discovering that there was never a Harry Potter, boy wizard, only a Harry Potter, poor kid in the cupboard who had nothing but his overactive imagination to keep himself going. > > > --Barb I just had a completely insane thought. What if Harry doesn't wake up from a dream? What if the word 'scar' is the last word in a book he has been secretly writing under the stairs all these years. A written fantasy world to keep him sane in an insane real world. And the Epilog to the Epilog is that at age 17/18, the Dursleys set Harry out on his own, and he goes on to become a famous author. The second richest person in the UK. On the cover of every magazine. Harry Potter is living JKRowling's fantasy. Poor, downtrodden, near penniless; his efforts under the stairs all those year, bring him/her to fame and fortune. HEY! It could happen. bboy_mn From jodel at aol.com Tue Oct 1 18:47:21 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:47:21 EDT Subject: Target Age marketing discussion (cross-post) Message-ID: <114.183c78b4.2acb47b9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44763 Sorry for the cross post, but the discussion on Mirror_of_Maybe set off one of thiose little epiphanies, and I though I'd share it. It's slightly OT for everyone but HP for Grownups, it's actually on topic there. << Original post; <> Original reply; I agree. I also think the books would have focused more on the adults interaction and background. For example, we'd learn more about Lupin and Black than a brief physical description (which by the way, is it me, or are those descriptions *very* basic, brief and lacking in detail?) and their relevance to the immediate story. There would have been greater room for possibility and change of direction and sexual tension. Considering the basic story would be the same, the books would have been placed in the sci-fi/fantasy sections, and as such would have a much larger possibility for slashy goodness. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking... ^_^; >> I don't agree. Rowling may be writing the books for herself, but she knows damn well that just about any book told from the point of view of a child (with the notable exception of ones told in first-person narrriative) is going to be marketed to children. And the humor which she laces them with is solidly targeted at the middle-school level. She knows that she is writing a children's book series and has been doing so from the beginning. And I'm not even convinced that she would have given us any more detail or sexual tension if she HAD been aiming it at a more general audience. (This story would never have been aimed at an *adult* audience.) I have finally identified just whose tradition she is largely writing in. It took a while because the genre is different and the style has a degree more embelishment than the model. And the answer is; Agatha Christie. The same background outline with "just enough" detail so the reader can fill it in for themselves even if they are coming from an entirely different time or place. The same deliberately stock character types, just barely roughed in, which the reader pigeonholes accordingly, so when they turn out to be whatever twisted interpretation the plot needs everybody is left gasping with shock. The same pretty much bare-bones narriative which is accessible to all. The same quintessential "Englishness". (The same class stereotypes and mild-to-not-so-mild contempt for the inteligence of servants.) Christie didn't always lead the reader up the garden path. Sometimes the plot went exactly the way you expected it to. But she always could, and she did it often enough that you didn't dare forget it. She wrote plot-driven stories, and sometimes, especailly in her early work they were complex as bedamned. The biggest difference that I can see is that Rowling is writing at VASTLY greater length, which in itself creates the biggest differences. If Sorcerer's stone had been 70-100 pages shorter, it would have been the internal, emotional freight which would have been jettisoned, and we would have been left with something singularly like an "Agatha Christie does fantasy" story. Think about it. Also, if you can find a copy, look up Robert Barnard's bibliography on Christie ("A Talent to Decieve") and read his introductory essay analysing the wide appeal of Christie's work. -JOdel From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 18:51:41 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 18:51:41 -0000 Subject: End of Harry Potter Series In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44764 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "oz_widgeon" wrote: > I had not considered this possibility, but now I'm thinking about > it, and it irritates me. If this is how it worked out, I would be > MAD. I HATE books and TV shows that end like this. Anyone remember > Sue Ellen (I think) waking to find Bobby in the shower in the TV > show 'Dallas'? I was pretty young (my parents were huge fans), but > it stuck with me, and still irks me today. Erm, yes, I mentioned the Dallas debacle in the post to which you are replying. > :) The whole "dream" > thing shows a lack of planning and imagination on the writers part. > They've painted (or written) themselves into a box and the only way > out is to make it all a dream (cop out, cop out, cop out!!!). I > think we all know that JK has done plenty of planning, and does not > lack imagination, so I'm HOPING this is not how it will turn out. Lack of imagination? Why would the magical world not being "real" mean JKR has a lack of imagination? As you pointed out, we have ample evidence to the contrary. It wouldn't even have to be a matter of a boy named Harry waking up from a dream; it could be that all along she intended the epilogue to be about a girl named Joanne waking up and preparing to take her first book manuscript, about a boy wizard named Harry Potter, to an agent, in hopes that she would escape her dreary life and find success as a writer. The irony is, of course, that she woke from her dreary life years ago and is now successful beyond the wildest dreams of any writer (perhaps now she fantasizes about being able to drink coffee in cafes without being recognized). Whether JKR leaves open the possibility of a Harry who grows up and goes out into the world or reveals that it is a story invented by a boy named Harry or girl named Joanne escaping the monotony of an otherwise unremarkable existence, it is still more worthwhile than most of the dreck out there and if she pulls a stunt like that I think she has chutzpah to burn and salute her. --Barb From lupinesque at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 19:14:14 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 19:14:14 -0000 Subject: All a dream (was End of Harry Potter Series) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44765 Barb wrote: > Why would the magical world not being "real" > mean JKR has a lack of imagination? As you pointed out, we have ample > evidence to the contrary. It wouldn't even have to be a matter of a > boy named Harry waking up from a dream; it could be that all along she > intended the epilogue to be about a girl named Joanne waking up and > preparing to take her first book manuscript, about a boy wizard named > Harry Potter, to an agent, in hopes that she would escape her dreary > life and find success as a writer. I find the idea upsetting for two reasons: (1) It's been done a zillion times and is trite. This, of course, is a matter of opinion, and it can be done beautifully, as in The Wizard of Oz . JKR certainly has a knack for taking things that would be trite in other hands and giving them a satisfying twist. But this one's mighty hard to twist enough for my satisfaction. (2) The wizarding world is REAL. Anyone who wakes up and says he dreamed the whole thing, or anyone who claims to have written it down out of her own imagination, is threatening this cherished belief and will have me to answer to. But really, isn't that one of the reasons the it-was-all-a-dream idea is so chilling? Go ahead and do that with Newhart or Dallas--who cares what happens there?--but don't go telling me that Hogwarts isn't really out there somewhere. Amy Z From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Oct 1 20:03:26 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:03:26 -0700 Subject: Sacrifice? was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Request for opinions (and reasons to justify them) In-Reply-To: <20021001132949.67734.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021001132949.67734.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <119482040444.20021001130326@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44766 Hi, Tuesday, October 01, 2002, 6:29:49 AM, Andrea wrote: > As you said, the chess game in PS/SS is an *immense* bit of > foreshadowing. Ron also was willing to put himself in danger to save > Harry in POA when facing down Sirius. We've seen Ron's willingness to risk his life to save his friends (Harry, specifically) several times (the chess scene in PS, twice in POA, first,when he pushes Harry away from the dog, then when he says:"If you want to kill Harry, you'll have to kill us too!") Is the Ron the only one of the trio who has taken this kind of risk? How about Harry and Hermione? Has a situation like this just never come up for them, or I'm just not remembering them, since they aren't frequently mentioned in discussions? I always *thought* they'd all three risk their lives for each other, kind of like the three Musketeers (one for all, all for one), but maybe not? Is it significant for JKR to have Ron push Harry out of the way (Hermione could have done this, too) and say the line in the shack? Is he really the only one willing to give it all up for the others and therefor the most likely to die in a later book? (Someone please convince me this is not the case! I'm starting to feel I'd better leave the lists and not read the books until the last one is out and I can feel safe that Ron makes it through. For some reason I'm not worried about Hermione and I know this irks JKR, and I'm not too worried about Harry, either. But all this talk about Ron and all this hate pouring out against him on many forums has made me fiercely protective of him . JKR sure must have done something right with his character to reap such strong reactions, one way or another, concering Ron!) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Tue Oct 1 20:24:44 2002 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Oct 2002 20:24:44 -0000 Subject: File - VFAQ.html Message-ID: <1033503884.47384301.5326.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44767 An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From naama_gat at hotmail.com Tue Oct 1 20:30:39 2002 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 20:30:39 -0000 Subject: "Are the Shades of Goderic's Hollow to be thus polluted?!" (was: A new thou In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44768 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: Hi Pippin (and all), Pippin said: > But Rowling *is* writing about the effects of prejudice and the > way it distorts our thinking. One can be vastly interested in all > things Muggle, and want them to be protected, without ever > considering them as potential members of one's family. A > certain condescension creeps into Molly's and Arthur's tone > whenever Muggles (bless them!) are discussed. I'd be surprised > if Rowling doesn't develop this potential conflict further, either > through Ron/Hermione or Percy/Penelope or both. > Mmmmm.In the Potterverse racism proper is about Muggle borns, not Muggles. It may offend our sensibilities, but Muggles really are inferior to wizards - therefore the reasonable attitude towards them is precisely the kindly condecsension practiced by the Weasleys. Muggle born wizards, however, are in all aspects equal in their powers to wizard born wizards. (In this way JKR brings out the essential stupidity of racism in real life. Discrimnating against people who are equal to you on the basis of some external, superflous , completely insignificant attribute (skin colour, for instance)). Looked at in this way, the Weasleys are as unprejudiced as wizards can be. Both in their actions, attitudes and explicitly stated views, they do *not* discriminate against Muggle born wizards. Naama From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 20:57:04 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 20:57:04 -0000 Subject: Differences between UK Adult Version of GoF and US GoF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44769 I promised the group that I would post the changes I found in comparing the US hardback edition of GoF with my recently purchased UK adult version GoF paperback. I found three changes that are not noted on the Lexicon's page that notes the differences between the (presumably first edition hardback) US and UK editions: Ch. 23, UK edition, p. 371 (when Snape is prowling the grounds during the Yule Ball): "Ten points from Hufflepuff, Fawcett!"..."And ten points from Ravenclaw, too, Stebbins!" US edition, p. 426: "Ten points from Ravenclaw, Fawcett!"..."And ten points from Hufflepuff, too, Stebbins!" Why would the two versions have Fawcett and Stebbins in different houses? Can anyone tell us whether this was the way the original UK hardback and the first edition UK paperback read? Ch. 34, UK edition, p. 579 (when Lily speaks to Harry after coming out of the wand): "'Your father's coming...' she said quietly. 'He wants to see you...it will be all right...hold on...'" US edition, p. 667: "'Your father's coming...' she said quietly. 'Hold on for your father...it will be all right...hold on...'" Was the US version changed because presumably Lily's "reverse echo" would not be able to know that James wanted to see Harry? But then how did James' reverse echo know to tell Harry that the Triwizard Cup was a portkey that would return him to Hogwarts? Ch. 36, UK edition, p. 605 (when Harry is recounting the graveyard events for Dumbledore): "He could see Cedric emerging, see the old man, Bertha Jorkins...his mother...his father..." US edition, p. 696: "He could see Cedric emerging, see the old man, Bertha Jorkins...his father...his mother..." I had posted a question regarding the sequence of "reverse echoes" in Harry's recollection awhile ago, because it had struck me as odd that this was the only place where "father" still came before "mother." All of the other wand order sequences had been corrected, with this one exception. At the time, I only had the US edition, and I recall that a HPfGU member had responded by saying that his UK edition (post wand order correction) also still had "father" before "mother." So it appears that this was changed in the UK editions after the first correction, but was not picked up in the US editions. As Mr. Ollivander would say, these differences are most "curious" to me. ~Phyllis From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 1 21:09:04 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 21:09:04 -0000 Subject: All a dream? WAS End of Harry Potter series. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44770 "And so Harry woke up and found it had all been a dream." ARRGH! NO! BAD-JKR ELF! Go bang your head on the oven door immediately! No. Absolutely not. No, no, no, no, NO. Errm... no, I don't think 'it was all a dream' is a terribly good ending. Did you guess that? When JKR said that she didn't believe in magic, I suspect that she meant that by the end of Book 7, we'll know that Harry's side has not won because they are better at 'magic' than Voldemort's side. 'Magic' solves nothing. 'Magic' will not bring Harry's parents back to life. 'Magic' will not make Snape or the Dursley's more likable. 'Magic' is basically 'technology' - useful, but ultimately a tool, and not a solution. Harry's side will win because they have people who are willing to sacrifice themselves and their lives to defeat Voldemort. Ron may sacrifice his life in the same way he 'sacrificed' himself as knight in the PS/SS chess game. Sirius may return to Azkaban to protect Harry. We might discover that Snape has spent years in a job he loathes because only by staying at Hogwarts and working with Dumbledore can he help defeat Voldemort. We might discover that the reason Lily didn't run was because she spent her last seconds trying to find some way of stopping Voldemort killing Harry. None of the above requires 'magic'. Muggles display a willingness to fight evil whatever the cost. JKR does not have to use a 'cop-out' ending to convince readers that they don't *need* to be a wizard like Harry Potter - just try and be a *person* like Harry [or Ron, or Hermione, or select-character-of-choice]. Going to Hogwarts will solve all your problems, kids? Heck, judging by Books 1 to 4, you'll just end up with a bunch of *equally* serious problems. Harry's escaped from under the stairs to discover a wonderful world of prejudice, unfairness, hypocrisy, fraud, injustice and evil. That's some escapist fantasy he's having. By the end of Book Five I'd think he's likely to *want* to wake up from it. Unlovely as the Dursley's are, they seem to be slightly better than Azkaban. No, the 'dream' ending could only really work if there was some twist to it: I think CS Lewis twisted the 'dream' ending in The Last Battle, by having his characters realise that not only was Narnia a dream, but this world was equally a dream. It could work, for example, if the sacrifice Harry had to make was to not only give up the WW, but always afterwards think it had only existed in his imagination - that ending has also been used a lot, but JKR is a good enough writer to pull it off. So, the last lines of Book 7? 'Harry turned and saw a tall, red-headed young man. 'Funny', thought Harry, 'he looks like someone I once saw in a dream.' The young man looked at Harry as if he was searching for someone he didn't expect to find. Then he smiled. "Hallo, Harry." he said. "I bet you were glad to lose your scar." Pip!Squeak From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Oct 1 21:20:23 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 17:20:23 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Differences between UK Adult Version of GoF and US GoF Message-ID: <5b.2efbe892.2acb6b97@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44771 Phyllis: > Ch. 23, UK edition, p. 371 (when Snape is prowling the grounds during > the Yule Ball): "Ten points from Hufflepuff, Fawcett!"..."And ten > points from Ravenclaw, too, Stebbins!" US edition, p. 426: "Ten > points from Ravenclaw, Fawcett!"..."And ten points from Hufflepuff, > too, Stebbins!" > > Why would the two versions have Fawcett and Stebbins in different > houses? Can anyone tell us whether this was the way the original UK > hardback and the first edition UK paperback read? Eloise: First edition, UK hardback is the same as your UK edition. Phyllis: > Ch. 34, UK edition, p. 579 (when Lily speaks to Harry after coming > out of the wand): "'Your father's coming...' she said quietly. 'He > wants to see you...it will be all right...hold on...'" US edition, > p. 667: "'Your father's coming...' she said quietly. 'Hold on for > your father...it will be all right...hold on...'" > > Was the US version changed because presumably Lily's "reverse echo" > would not be able to know that James wanted to see Harry? But then > how did James' reverse echo know to tell Harry that the Triwizard Cup > was a portkey that would return him to Hogwarts? Eloise: UK original (still with wrong order) is as your UK version, but it is James who speaks of Lily. The meanings of both your versions seem the same to me. Why the change? > > Ch. 36, UK edition, p. 605 (when Harry is recounting the graveyard > events for Dumbledore): "He could see Cedric emerging, see the old > man, Bertha Jorkins...his mother...his father..." US edition, p. > 696: "He could see Cedric emerging, see the old man, Bertha > Jorkins...his father...his mother..." Elosie: UK original is the same as your UK one. > > I had posted a question regarding the sequence of "reverse echoes" in > Harry's recollection awhile ago, because it had struck me as odd that > this was the only place where "father" still came before "mother." > All of the other wand order sequences had been corrected, with this > one exception. At the time, I only had the US edition, and I recall > that a HPfGU member had responded by saying that his UK edition (post > wand order correction) also still had "father" before "mother." So > it appears that this was changed in the UK editions after the first > correction, but was not picked up in the US editions. Eloise: A pretty familiar pattern! Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kaityf at jorsm.com Tue Oct 1 19:59:40 2002 From: kaityf at jorsm.com (Carol Bainbridge) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 14:59:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: End of Harry Potter Series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021001145250.0307b818@mailhost.jorsm.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44772 Barb says: >Lack of imagination? Why would the magical world not being "real" >mean JKR has a lack of imagination? As you pointed out, we have ample >evidence to the contrary. The best way I can think of to explain why this is probably not JKR's intention and why it would indicate a lack of imagination in JKR is that we can all imagine such an ending ourselves. JKR is extremely clever and creative in the ways she leads us all down the wrong path (unless I am the only reader in the entire world who has been surprised at all the twists and turns in the plots and characters). Even those of us who read numerous mysteries and can predict what the author is going to do next are easily tricked by JKR. The fact that there is ample evidence to suggest that the entire story is nothing more than a dream is, IMO, far more likely to be one of JKR's little red herrings that she drops here and there to throw us off the track. (Assuming she had any intention of creating such an illusion.) It never fails to amaze me that JKR could continue to trick me as a reader even when I was ready for her tricks. I think that's why so many of us would be so disappointed if she resorted to a dream to explain Hogwarts and why some of us consider it a trite trick. It's much too simple and predictable for the JKR that I have come to know and admire. Carol Bainbridge (kaityf at jorsm.com) http://www.lcag.org From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 21:30:12 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 21:30:12 -0000 Subject: All a dream? WAS End of Harry Potter series. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44773 I agree with Pip and Amy - I would also be terribly disappointed if the series ended with "it was all a dream." Amy put it well - JKR has managed to make the world so real, that to have it all be in actuality unreal would be a disappointing end to the series (IMO). I think canon provides strong fodder for why it *isn't* all a dream. The books describe a number of Harry's dreams which suggest that he has the ability to know what's going on in other places, and to foresee future events. How could it all be a dream when we're already taken inside of his dreams? ~Phyllis From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Tue Oct 1 22:29:17 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:29:17 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: All a dream? WAS End of Harry Potter series. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17310361680.20021001152917@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44774 Tuesday, October 1, 2002, 2:09:04 PM, bluesqueak wrote: b> 'Magic' solves nothing. 'Magic' will not bring Harry's parents back b> to life. 'Magic' will not make Snape or the Dursley's more b> likable. 'Magic' is basically 'technology' - useful, but ultimately a b> tool, and not a solution. You are clearly wiser than some computer scientests I could name, who preach that all we need is sufficient technology to achieve utopia, and even Voldemort's ultimate dream of immortality. b> Harry's side will win because they have people who are willing to b> sacrifice themselves and their lives to defeat Voldemort. Ron may b> sacrifice his life in the same way he 'sacrificed' himself as knight b> in the PS/SS chess game... Already we have many examples of this -- Along with the chess game is Hermione solving the logic puzzle, Harry's loyality to Dumbledore in the C. of S., Harry having the insight to plunge the fang into the diary, the Patronus (which I think has more to with psychology than sorcery), and so on... *Characters* drive these storiesm not the magic per se. In that way, Harry Potter is the "Mary Tyler Moore Show" of fantasies. Amy wrote: b> (1) It's been done a zillion times and is trite. This, of course, is b> a matter of opinion, and it can be done beautifully, as in The Wizard b> of Oz . For the sake of our friendship, Amy, I'll hold my peace. :) I'll only say that I do feel MGM could have thought twice before altering the author's original intentions. -- Dave ( Who is glad they didn't decide to make the "Mary Tyler Moore Show" all a dream of Laura Petrie's :) ) From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 1 23:57:07 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 23:57:07 -0000 Subject: All a dream (was End of Harry Potter Series) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44775 Amy Z wrote: >>>>It's been done a zillion times and is trite. This, of course, is a matter of opinion, and it can be done beautifully, as in The Wizard of Oz .<<<< So I write: When this came up before, I made the comparison to the possible dream ending interpretation in Frankenstein. It was wisely pointed out [I'm sorry, but I do not remember by who.] afterwards that Frankenstein (as also with the movie Wizard of Oz) is written in a fashion that provides the *real* possibility of the dream interpretation. Both the book and the movie have a box in box construction that allows for a reality before and after. HP does not provide this beginning basis. If the end of the series is a boy waking up from a dream, then we are completely thrown from a loop we *definately* were not expecting. That is when readers become angry. We can accept that reading of Frankenstein and the end of Wizard of Oz because it does not change much. We kind of blame ourselves for not seeing the possibility beforehand. It is kind of like not figuring out the butler did it. Since the "authors" framed the story, we can take the blame for not seeing the ending. People were mad at Dallas, for example, because the writers put the plot device mid-story and did not want the viewers to figure-out the ending. As viewers/readers we call foul. It is changing the rules in the middle of the game. Oh, and an observation a bit off topic yet not, I find it amazing that the same topic was brought up two weeks ago with little flurry, but now the clouds have opened and the rain is pouring down. Quite an amusing phenomenom on this site really. Melody Who is wondering why the Grey Wolf did not rise to support his "pet" theory along with Pip!Squeak. Quite unusual. From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Oct 2 01:43:20 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 20:43:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Defending Harry (was Somebody please save Ron!) References: Message-ID: <019e01c269b5$17853c80$c69ecdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44776 "dcyasser" writes: > 1) Harry. I was reading PoA to my daughter last night, and was so > incensed with Harry at the end, in the hospital wing, when poor Ron > comes round, asks what happened, and Harry flippantly (I think) says > to Hermione "you tell him" while putting away more chocolate. (I do > not have the book handy.) Yeah, cute and all, but poor Ron! Poor > broken-legged, severely hexed, not- feeling-too-well Ron. Ah, but keep in mind Harry had been through a great ordeal himself that evening. First of all, I don't think he was quite sure how to explain what had happened. He was pretty much clueless until Hermione filled him in on what was going on, so logically it makes sense for her to explain it. And he does say "You explain" to Hermione, which implies more than "you tell him" that it requires just that--explaining. And heaven knows Hermione's good at that. It's hard to explain something when you still don't quite understand it yourself. Second, Harry was probably emotionally drained himself. First the whole shrieking shack incident in itself was exhausting. Mentally, physically, and emotionally. Bouncing around from Sirius helped Voldemort kill his father, to Lupin who he trusted was siding with Sirius, then to Peter who was Ron's rat was the betrayer. Then he's going to live with Sirius, then he may never see Sirius again and he's still in grave danger. Then he's nearly kissed by a dementor, and then thinks he sees his father. Then to top it all off he time travels with Hermione and discovers that the one he thought was his father was really him. And all along his patronus takes the form of his father's animagus. Then comes back and looks him in the eye. If that doesn't throw you for a loop nothing will! I'm still a bit confused on how that came about (that his patronus would take on the shape of a stag), so I'm sure he was too. So there you have it, my daily defense of Harry and his good will. :) Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Oct 2 01:50:28 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 20:50:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius opinions/ Dobby References: Message-ID: <01a801c269b6$15fd95a0$c69ecdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44777 Freya writes: > IMHO Lucius is the weak link in Voldy's DE. Lucius, I belive will be > the down fall of Voldy. Not in a hero sense but simply because > Lucius has no master but himself and his ambitions. He is only loyal > to Voldy for as long as Voldy suites his needs. In fact, in some Ah, my sentiments exactly. I think Lucius will be a key in the downfall of Voldemort, when his own needs are no longer met. In fact, if you saw my Potter code a while back based on vowels, Lucius Malfoy comes out as good, or one who will aid the side of good. Anyone who turns against Voldemort will in some way aid the side of the "good guys" even if it is unintentional. I don't think Lucius will in any way join the side of Dumbledore and co., but will be, as you said, a weak link. On another note, I never really liked Dobby, but rereading CoS last night I picked up on something I hadn't before. Duh, I know it's always been there but I guess I read too fast before. Anyway, I was always a little mad at Dobby for waking Harry up in the hospital wing. It's bad enough he's there thanks to Dobby (and Lockhart), but he has to go and wake him up so he can suffer? However, I apparently had failed to notice that he was sponging Harry's forehead in the dark. And there were even tears involved. How sweet. I suppose it was one of those "this is really hurting me more than you" issues. Ah, well, here's to Dobby and an army of house elves to fight against Voldemort. :) Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 02:23:01 2002 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 02:23:01 -0000 Subject: Defending Harry (was Somebody please save Ron!) In-Reply-To: <019e01c269b5$17853c80$c69ecdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44778 Richelle wrote- > > And all along his patronus takes the > form of his father's animagus. Then comes back and looks him in the eye. > If that doesn't throw you for a loop nothing will! I'm still a bit confused > on how that came about (that his patronus would take on the shape of a > stag), so I'm sure he was too. > Well, patronus is close to Latin for father if not the actual word for it (My Latin sucks, I apologize). If it is the embodiment of James then it would be in a form that could protect his son from a swarm of dementors. Dunno if that's what you meant by that question, so apologizes if it wasn't. From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Oct 2 02:42:38 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 21:42:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's patronus (was Re: Defending Harry (was Somebody please save Ron!) References: Message-ID: <01f001c269bd$5fa3c920$c69ecdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44779 > Richelle wrote- > > > > And all along his patronus takes the > > form of his father's animagus. Then comes back and looks him in > the eye. If that doesn't throw you for a loop nothing will! I'm still a bit > confused on how that came about (that his patronus would take on the shape > of a stag), so I'm sure he was too. purple_801999 responds: > Well, patronus is close to Latin for father if not the actual word > for it (My Latin sucks, I apologize). If it is the embodiment of > James then it would be in a form that could protect his son from a > swarm of dementors. Dunno if that's what you meant by that question, > so apologizes if it wasn't. At the risk that Richard (GulPlum) may jump down my throat (kidding, kidding!), patronus is Latin for: protector, patron, pleader, advocate. Father is pater. I won't get into any connections there, don't want to risk that again. :) Anyway, to rephrase my question slightly, the particular form his patronus took was apparently unusual, according to Dumbledore, who at the time didn't know James was an animagus (Malfoy & co as fake dementors at Quidditch game). So therefore all patronuses must take a form unique to the person they are defending. Which means it must've come from somewhere in Harry's subconscious. Did he, as a 15 month old or younger, see his father as a stag? Is this how he subconsciously associated protection with a stag? Now is that clear as mud? Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 02:44:59 2002 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 02:44:59 -0000 Subject: Book 5 - Will Hagrid Die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44780 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "myphilosophy2001" wrote: Jessica wrote- > There's been some discussion lately about who's going to bite the big > one in OoP, Ron and Hagrid being the main suspects. > > It's been my contention for awhile now that Hagrid will die, but I > noticed a very striking parallel that only furthers my suspicions. > (BTW, I tried to check the archives for past discussion on this > matter but could find nothing -- please forgive me if this has been > brought up all ready). > > Has anybody else noticed the similarities between Hagrid and Frank > Bryce? > > Both of them were considered suspects for crimes actually committed > by Voldemort and were subsequently either mistrusted and/or unfairly > punished even after it was decided there was no solid evidence > proving their guilt. > > Both are groundskeepers for the very places where their supposed > crimes took place. > > The only difference thus far? Frank Bryce is killed by Voldemort. > > Does this mean Hagrid will meet the same fate. > > I'm curious what others make of this. > > -Jessica I have a funny feeling that Hagrid might be killed by his own mother, Fridwulfa. The signs seem to be there. Hagrid's steady, unwavering love for dangerous, deadly creatures. His loneliness and isolation due to his heritage and lack of family. The fact that the giants allied with LV last time around and aren't known for having a soft side. Now that Hagrid and Madame Maxime have been sent as an envoy to the giants Hagrid is bound to run into his long lost mother. What will happen? Who knows. But to me it doesn't look good for Hagrid or his mum. -Olivia Grey P.S. Your theory is very good and points out several similarities that I'd never have noticed. From nplyon at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 04:20:15 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 21:20:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thoughts on SHIPS In-Reply-To: <1033473466.1950.5341.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021002042015.15382.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44781 Jessica said: > I have to weigh in on this discussion of SHIPS and > their importance to the HP series. Thank you very much for doing so! I thought your post was brilliant and I am sorry to snip any of it as I add my thoughts. I sincerely hope that everyone on the list read your post and, if they did not, I hope they will go back and read it now. > > There seems to be a climate of dismissiveness toward > the development of romantic relationships amongst > the Hogwarts students -- specifically Harry, > Hermione, and Ron. The inference, it seems to me, is > that these types of relationships are trivial to the > overriding action of the books. I could not disagree > more. Indeed, I believe they will prove vital to the > battle against Voldemort, the development of the > plot, and the survival/redemption of many of the > series' characters. I completely agree with you here. While I highly enjoy discussions of character motivation, symbolism, etc., I have found that there are very few discussions about romantic relationships and that when there are, they are differentiated from other posts and often not taken as seriously. I think this is very sad as I think that love is the most important thing in the world and I would venture to say that it is *the* central theme in this series. > > As much as one cant consider the romantic pairing > of James and Lily Potter trivial, I dont think its > fair for one to consider the pairings of Harry and > his contemporaries to be trivial. Dont get me > wrong Im not at all interested in the series > dissolving into some silly teen Harlequin. In fact, > it seems to me that the these pairings will have far > less to do with drippy romance, than with the > significance of two people finding they can > contribute something vital and lasting to each > other, something that will make them stronger, > braver, wiser, and more aware of their potential as > an individual. My thoughts exactly. I don't want to see these books become Harlequin romance novels either but the presence of loving relationships between the characters does not doom HP to become a cheesy bodice-ripper of a series. I would think it completely abnormal if the characters did not form romantic attachments because true love is the ultimate form of comfort, security, and happiness for human beings. Our experiences with love have a huge impact on who we become. If I recollect correctly, JKR is a fan of Jane Austen. Those familiar with the incomparable Miss Austen know that it is often through the influence and guidance of their lovers that her main characters overcome their worst flaws. All this is central to my belief that there will be a Hermione/Ron pairing and a Harry/Ginny pairing and that these couplings will be very important and very influential to the characters. As far as Ron and Hermione go, they have had a very contentious relationship but I think that a lot of this stems from the affection that they feel for each other but have not yet acknowledged. Conventional wisdom tells us that when we care very, very deeply for someone they are often the person we hurt the most. This is because we have so much vested in them emotionally that the slightest word or glance from them has a great power to wound us. When Hermione and Ron fight, it seems to me that they have the ability to hurt one another much more than anyone else hurts them. Furthermore, the worst sting is when someone that we truly care about points out one of our flaws because we want to be something more for that person, we don't want to be seen as flawed by them. I believe this is why Ron becomes so defensive when attacked by Hermione. In my opinion, he really wishes for her to see him as someone special and so anytime she points one of his flaws out to him it is especially painful. It's a constant reminder that, to his mind, he is not good enough for her. Is there anything more painful than believing that we are not good enough for the person we love? There is also the issue or Ron's behavior when Hermione goes to the Yule Ball with Krum. From the first time I read that scene, it seemed blatantly obvious to me that Ron was crazed with jealousy. He had admired Krum and openly gawked at Krum as if he were a god until Krum developed an interest in Hermione. Suddenly, Krum became public enemy #1 and Ron was ripping the head off his Krum figure. He had assumed that Hermione would be available to him and when he realized that she is seen as an object of attraction by another person, he can't handle it. She's *his* Hermione and Krum has a lot of nerve to think he can muscle in on Ron's territory. As for Harry and Ginny, I admit that this was a pairing that I did not think much about until rather recently. Of course I noticed that Ginny had a crush on him as that's apparent from the books but in reading through some of the posts on this group and having some discussion with Lilac, I have realized that there are several reasons why Ginny would be perfect for Harry. For one, there's the obvious answer. If Harry were to marry Ginny, he would become a true member of the Weasley family. For another, Ginny is really the only other person in the WW who has some idea of what Harry has suffered at the hands of Voldemort. She too has been tortured by him, which is something that Ron and Hermione and most other people in the WW cannot possibly understand and relate to, at this point. I think that Harry will find a kindred spirit in Ginny and that's very important to him because, as Jessica pointed out, he is very isolated and seems to feel very alone. When someone is the victim of a crime or a terrible tragedy, they often withdraw into themselves and feel that no one else understands until they meet someone who has been through the same experience. This is why support groups exist--once someone is shown that there are others who understand what s/he is going through, s/he is able to unburden him/herself before people who will have carried similar burdens. This shared experience creates a safe environment and helps foster recovery. I think that Ginny and Harry will become a support to one another and that, through this support system, they will begin to heal. > One final note: A lot of anti-SHIP speculation seems > to center around the assumption that all of the dark > and terrible things beginning to escalate in the WW > would make infatuation/love/romance irrelevant or > unimportant to the characters. Im not so sure about > that. Ive done no research on this sort of thing, > but its always been my understanding that, when > faced with danger or crisis, many people tend to > fall into relationships. In those types of > situations, emotions are running high and people are > scared. Fearing death, some people confess to or act > on feelings theyd hidden or were unaware of in the > past. Or they turn to others for support and comfort > and for the escape that affairs or love can bring. This is a very good point. After 9/11, many couples in the U.S. got married right away. They came to realize that life can be unexpectedly short and that it was important to them to find a partner with whom they could share their hopes, dreams, and fears. I know that I personally came to appreciate the fact that I have a husband and life partner more than ever as a result of the attacks. I think that relationships during a time of crisis not only offer support, comfort, or escape, but they also provide a person with a motive to keep on fighting rather than accepting defeat and giving up. Human beings are always more motivated to fight when there is something precious to them at stake. Besides that, I think that the WW will find it necessary to find something beautiful in the midst of a time of great fear. This is already exemplified when Harry gives Fred and George his tournament winnings because he feels that the WW will need a laugh during the times to come. I think that the romantic relationships that H/R/H will form in future books will be life-afirming to them and remind them of the great goodness that exists in the world, even in the face of great evil. > -Jessica, who is an eternal big mouth ~Nicole, who thinks Jessica is not a big mouth. Instead, she thinks that Jessica is very eloquent and has started a very thought-provoking discussion. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Wed Oct 2 07:00:22 2002 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 07:00:22 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat/ Voldemort's compitence/ Request for opinions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44782 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "cockneyrebe1" wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > > Richelle writes: > > > > > Now, I'll really go out on a limb. JKR has said that, as it > > currently stands, the last word of book 7 is "scar". Ever since > > I read that, I have written that sentence for myself to read > > something like: (Dumbledore speaking)"Harry, wandless, killed > > Voldemort with the very same curse that gave him his scar." > > > > Thoughts? > > > > fun 'n games. > > > I think something like, *As he looked in the mirror a frown fell > across his face. "Where's my scar?"* would be really cute. On a similar vein, I've also tended to think the last sentence would be about the absence of Harry's scar. Though it'd be a great psych-out if the scar talked about in the last sentence wasn't Harry's at all! "Feeling the slash running across her face, Hermione winced. 'I bet that'll leave a scar.'" --Arcum From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Wed Oct 2 07:08:55 2002 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 07:08:55 -0000 Subject: All a dream? WAS End of Harry Potter series. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44783 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bluesqueak" wrote: > "And so Harry woke up and found it had all been a dream." > > ARRGH! NO! BAD-JKR ELF! Go bang your head on the oven door > immediately! > > No. > > Absolutely not. > > No, no, no, no, NO. > > Errm... no, I don't think 'it was all a dream' is a terribly good > ending. Did you guess that? Don't worry, I don't particularly think JKR does either. Take a look at this quote from an interview: "I sweated blood over that story to make it work, but it really came from my heart. Only later can you start analyzing it. But you can overanalyze, too. I had a woman tell me it was clear to her that Harry was so abused that he becomes schizophrenic, and that everything that happens from the point of the arrival of the letters about Hogswart is his own escape into a sort of torture-fantasy. I tried to be polite and say something like, "Well, that would be one way of looking at it, I guess." But I was kind of scared. One of the nicest things about writing for children is that you don't find them deconstructing novels. Either they like it or they don't like it." If she thinks the series as an escapism fantasy is overanalysing, I suspect the series as a dream would fall into a similar catagory... --Arcum From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 20:03:01 2002 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 20:03:01 -0000 Subject: End of Harry Potter Series In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44784 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bohcoo" wrote: > > It would be a tidy way to end the series -- but I hope I am wrong, > don't you? > > "bohcoo" There are two questions which need to be answered here: Whether JKR has indeed foreshadowed Harry's waking up from a dream; and whether this is desirable. To answer the second-- and perhaps more important-- question, having the entire Wizarding World be but a teenage boy's dream would be worse than a cop-out, it would deny its legitimacy. Of such fragile timbers is our "willing suspension of disbelief" constructed. I can only dimly picture the profound sense of disappointment that would be felt by millions of readers of the HP books. In all probability, this ending would be repressed in the minds of all those who enjoy the possibility of such a Wizarding World actually existing in parallel with our own. As for the first question, based in part on my argument in the previous paragraph, I cannot believe that JKR would knowingly undermine the "reality" of Harry's world. Bohcoo has given only one text citation for this theory. I myself have not reread the four books with this thought in mind, but in none of the half-dozen times I did read the books, in both UK and US versions, I do not remember dream scenes that did not relate to the story at hand. I didn't catch even a whiff of this "and the Harry woke up" foreshadowing from the text. I realize that I am not the authority on HP. In my next reading, I will be alert for the possibility. Meanwhile, rather than argue the desirability of the dream theory, I would like to see more specific examples of textual citations by bohcoo that support this theory. This might help focus the debate. Haggridd From dcyasser at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 02:23:06 2002 From: dcyasser at yahoo.com (dcyasser) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 02:23:06 -0000 Subject: Defending Harry (was Somebody please save Ron!) In-Reply-To: <019e01c269b5$17853c80$c69ecdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44785 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > Ah, but keep in mind Harry had been through a great ordeal himself that > evening. Yes,Richelle - thank you for defending Harry because I do not enjoy being unhappy with him. And I do agree he had a mind-boggling evening, even by his standards. But I just keep coming back to poor Ron, - just a pat on the back, just a thank you are you OK? Sometimes I think it is the parent in me, and the story takes on a different tone when you are reading it aloud to a child. (My daughter is 9. She read Books 1 & 2 on her own, but PoA scared me so much I insisted on reading it to her.) So we'll take Harry off the hook but, what about Mrs. W? Thanks Dona From the.gremlin at verizon.net Wed Oct 2 02:29:01 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 02:29:01 -0000 Subject: Lucius/Narcissa opinions anyone? In-Reply-To: <45.1e31c53a.2acac27e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44786 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., xEmeraldxSnakex at a... wrote: > Yep, another one of my annoying questions ^^ > > But anyways, what do you people think of the Lucius/Narcissa paring? > > I'm not sure of my own opinion yet. Lucius doesn't strike me as above > arranged marriages (Does the Wizarding World still do that?) and marrying to > suit his own purposes..... > But then again is there no one in the HP fandom that believes there's a > little lurve in the Malfoy Mansion? > > I'm pretty sure they're not happily married, but there still has to be > something going on between them.... Right? > > -Emerald Snake ^^ > I thought that the Malfoy marriage was kind of an old-type of marriage (I can't remember what era), where some people would get married purposely for ties and money. Perhaps Lucius's father was somebody important, and Narcissa's parents suggested the marriage so they could have family ties. It might also have been a rich get richer kind of thing. Draco may just be the heir they needed. He is the only child, and if there were more than one child, the "fortune" and family ties would need to be split up between the male heirs. I'm sure that if Lucius and Narcissa's first child had been a girl, they would have kept at it until they produced a boy. I think the Malfoy family is more of a political one than a loving one. They married and had a child for necessity, not for a family. -Acire From Paul_one2 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 2 03:51:31 2002 From: Paul_one2 at hotmail.com (melodiousmonkey) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 03:51:31 -0000 Subject: End of Harry Potter Series In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44787 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "psychic_serpent" wrote: > > The whole "dream" > > thing shows a lack of planning and imagination on the writers part. > > They've painted (or written) themselves into a box and the only way > > out is to make it all a dream (cop out, cop out, cop out!!!). Yes, I tend to agree with that. I feel cheated when I find out nothing has actually happened. > Barb wrote: > It wouldn't even have to be a matter of a > boy named Harry waking up from a dream; it could be that all along she > intended the epilogue to be about a girl named Joanne waking up and > preparing to take her first book manuscript, about a boy wizard named > Harry Potter, to an agent, in hopes that she would escape her dreary > life and find success as a writer. That is pretty good! But how about this: 11 year-old Harry wakes from his dream. Disoriented, he sits up and bumps his head on the roof of his small cupboard under the stairs. He remembers having a strange and wonderful dream, but barely remembering any of it. He lies back down, rubs his head, and as he does so his fingers sweep over his lightening bolt scar. Then, as an epilogue, JKR refers the reader to "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone", sending the world into an infinite recursion of re-reading the series. I'm not saying that this is the best way to end the book. Nor do I think it will happen (in fact I am quite sure the books won't end in a dream), and few of us need any further motivation to re-read the books! I think however JKR ends it, it will be amazing, and leave us all more than satisfied. Maybe emotionally shattered, but definitely not dissatisfied. Paul -- this is my first post - hopefully it went okay. From psychomaverick at hotmail.com Wed Oct 2 03:53:28 2002 From: psychomaverick at hotmail.com (psychodudeneo) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 03:53:28 -0000 Subject: Book 5 - Will Hagrid Die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44788 > Jessica wrote- > > > There's been some discussion lately about who's going to bite the > big > > one in OoP, Ron and Hagrid being the main suspects. I personally think book 5 would be way too early to kill off any of the main Trio. In the grand plot, it is only a little after the halfway point of the saga - which seems a bit too soon to start nixing the three main characters. If one of them does die, I beleive it will be either at the end of Book 6, or sometime during the later half of Book 7 (and that their death will trigger the total climax). I do agree that Hagrid has been red-shirted. Along with perhaps, Dumbledore. It's always been my theory that Dumbledore will die sometime near the end of the series, making Harry the world's only hope at defeating Voldemort. Aside from Hagrid and Dumbledore, I can't really think of anyone else that I'm sure is going to kick the big one. However, I get the feeling that the Dursleys will end up in a nasty situation. Possibly not killed, but maybe they'll all be turned into squids or something? "psychodudeneo" From abigailnus at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 08:51:23 2002 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 08:51:23 -0000 Subject: End of the Harry Potter Series/SHIP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44789 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > Dumbledore believes that somewhere inside Harry, some bit of > Voldemort lurks. We know that Voldemort can be regenerated > from the merest scrap of existence, "less than spirit, less than > the meanest ghost." We've also seen many times that Harry > would rather face death than be parted from the magical world. > That makes me think that separation, not martyrdom, will be the > sacrifice which is the price of Voldemort's defeat. Hmm. This is kind of similar to something I suggested a few months ago in a thread about the Imperius curse. Elkins was wondering if the spellcaster's strengh (of will or of magical ability) affected the ease with which one could escape from their Imperius, and whether the reason that Crouch Jr. managed to escape his father's Imperius had to do with the fact that Voldemort was getting stronger and feeding him strengh. I suggested: >Let's accept that Crouch Jr.'s ability to throw off his father's Imperius is really due to Voldemort's growing strengh and his return to a physical body (and I think this makes a lot of sense, especially since the Dark Mark also returns as LV grows stronger.) We know another character, who is not a DE, who has drawn qualities from the Dark Lord before. That person is Harry. Dumbledore clearly states in CoS that attributes of Voldemort's attached themselves to Harry when the Avada Kedavra failed. What if a similar connection to the one that has been suggested between Voldemort and the DEs now exists between Voldemort and Harry? It explains why Harry is able to throw off a relatively benevolent suggestion in class by Crouch Jr., and later, when Voldemort himself Imperiuses him, it's actually Voldemort's strengh (either magical strengh or strengh of will, I think a good case can be made for either of these, or both, affecting the quality of a wizard's Imperius) fighting itself, which is why Harry manages to throw the Imperius off - all he needs is to tip the scales a bit. This suggests that at the final confrontation, Harry may find himself having to destroy a part of himself in order to destroy Voldemort. > Now, at the time I was thinking of why Harry is such a powerful wizard (able to conjure up a Patronus at the age of 13), and I believe I had just read about 12 posts suggesting that Harry is The Great All-Powerful Wizard, The Most Powerfull Wizard Ever, and The One. I really hate that idea, so my line of thinking was "OK, you want Harry to be really powerful - how about if his power stems from Voldemort?" There didn't seem to be many takers at the time (if you're interested in reading the entire post, it's #40510). So at the time I was considering the possibility that Harry would have to give up his incredible strengh as a wizard in order to defeat Voldemort. Obviously I was being a softie. I agree that if this situation ever comes up, the only satisfying solution will be for Harry to give up his powers completely. Reading through the "it was all a dream" posts made me think of something else. I really don't think that making the entire series a dream would be satisfying for the readers, but wouldn't it make an interesting weapon? What if Voldemort tries to convince Harry that his years in Hogwarts have been a dream in order to confuse him or pump him for information? I realise that this is hardly original - off the top of my head I can think of two TV shows (Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Deep Space Nine) and one book (Neverwhere by Neil Gaiman) where this trick has been used, and I'm sure there are many more. However, JKR doesn't tend to be original with the ideas she uses, just in the way she uses them, and I believe she could use the "it was all a dream" trick to great effect. Abigail From theo_kestrel at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 09:13:40 2002 From: theo_kestrel at yahoo.com (theo_kestrel) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 09:13:40 -0000 Subject: All a dream? WAS End of Harry Potter series. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44790 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bluesqueak" wrote: > > > No, the 'dream' ending could only really work if there was some twist > to it: I think CS Lewis twisted the 'dream' ending in The Last > Battle, by having his characters realise that not only was Narnia a > dream, but this world was equally a dream. > > It could work, for example, if the sacrifice Harry had to make was to > not only give up the WW, but always afterwards think it had only > existed in his imagination - that ending has also been used a lot, > but JKR is a good enough writer to pull it off. > > So, the last lines of Book 7? > > 'Harry turned and saw a tall, red-headed young man. 'Funny', thought > Harry, 'he looks like someone I once saw in a dream.' > > The young man looked at Harry as if he was searching for someone he > didn't expect to find. Then he smiled. > > "Hallo, Harry." he said. "I bet you were glad to lose your scar." > > Pip!Squeak Infrequent visitor popping his head in... This possibility reminds me somewhat of the ending of Susan Cooper's "The Dark is Rising" series as well, where in the end only Will Stanton, the last Old One, is left with the memories of what really happened, and the other children are allowed to live their lives without the burden of knowledge. It's been a LONG time since I last read those books, but I don't remember being unhappy with the ending. If JKR chooses to take a similar path with her story, I think she could make it a satisfying conclusion. One possible quibble I might have with such an ending though is that after everything Harry's been through, I think he deserves a little more than this-even though Harry has never done any of his "heroic" deeds with any thought of personal gain, he deserves a hero's reward or hero's rest or SOMETHING; there hasn't been any mention of anything like Avalon or the Grey Havens, and to have his reward for saving the wizarding world be the erasure of the last seven years of his life would be disappointing. Just some meandering thoughts, take it as you will. theo_kestrel From lupinesque at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 10:36:04 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 10:36:04 -0000 Subject: All a dream? WAS End of Harry Potter series. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44791 Theo wrote: > This possibility reminds me somewhat of the ending of Susan Cooper's > "The Dark is Rising" series as well, where in the end only Will > Stanton, the last Old One, is left with the memories of what really > happened, and the other children are allowed to live their lives > without the burden of knowledge. It's been a LONG time since I last > read those books, but I don't remember being unhappy with the ending. I didn't find that part so disturbing, and I'm trying to remember why; IIRC, it's because he'll still be in touch with Merriman. He doesn't have to be all alone. What did cut like a knife was his erasing his brother Stephen's memory earlier in the book. That felt really lonely, as if he would have liked to be able to share this with his favorite brother but couldn't. > If JKR chooses to take a similar path with her story, I think she > could make it a satisfying conclusion. One possible quibble I might > have with such an ending though is that after everything Harry's been > through, I think he deserves a little more than this Yes, it would be sad. It's haunting in a whole different way, but then, I find Memory Charms particularly horrifying. This I could believe, though. JKR clearly has few qualms about putting her hero through terrible ordeals. Amy Z From cindysphynx at comcast.net Wed Oct 2 12:19:48 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 12:19:48 -0000 Subject: TBAY: PINE-ing for Superfluous Characters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44792 Cindy surveyed Theory Bay through her spy glass, her heart heavy. Everywhere she looked, vessels lay lifeless in the calm waters. The Fourth Man Hovercraft was beached at the shoreline, its hull shining with a thick layer of a curious mossy substance. LOLLIPOPS, the greatest vessel of them all, had been left to drift, its mighty sail in tatters. Oh, there was still an assortment of smaller vessels cheerfully buzzing each other, and bleary-eyed tour groups filed listlessly through the canon museum, but there hadn't been any activity in the Bay in quite some time. Suddenly, Cindy spied something unusual on the GARBAGESCOW. It, like so many other vessels in the Bay, seemed to be going nowhere, but as best Cindy could make out from her awkward vantage point, something seemed different aboard the SCOW. Something seemed . . . wrong . . . . terribly wrong. Cindy apparated to the deck of the GARBAGESCOW, seeking its Captain, Dicentra. What Cindy saw shocked her. Dicentra was there all right. But just barely. She lay sprawled across the Captain's chair, her long platinum hair askew, her usually soaking wet uniform dirty, disheveled and ?- bone dry! An empty family-size bag of corn chips lay crumpled at her feet. "What's going on here, Sailor?" Cindy asked disdainfully, pulling Dicentra upright. "Why aren't you maintaining your vessel?" "I ?" Dicentra began. She suddenly pitched forward, and Cindy caught her quickly. "I can't seem to generate any interest in the GARBAGESCOW these days. When was the last time Eileen or Elkins dropped by? *Never,* that's when. I figured they'd give me something ?- anything. I'd even take some bullying behavior or a train stomp -- I'm flexible here. But no. No one has brought me a canon in *months!*" "You have to pull yourself *together*!" Cindy snapped. "There's no time to waste. If you're going to dump all of the superfluous canon into the Theory Bay landfill before OoP comes out, you have to get a move on!" "Before OoP comes out?" Dicentra rolled her eyes. "Oh, we've got *years* then," she said sarcastically. "Besides, why should I even get out of bed in the morning if no one comes here any more?" She narrowed her eyes. "Not even you, Cindy. And I expected better from you." Cindy shrugged. "Hey, don't look at me. Nobody's banging in the Bay either." "Well, what can we do about it? 'Cause we gotta do something. I can't go on like this!" Dicentra moaned, clutching her head in her hands. "Hmmm," Cindy mused. "I think you need better PR. You should run a little contest, that's what you should do. You know, boost morale around here. You should challenge everyone in the Bay to bring you the biggest canons they can find for the GARBAGESCOW. Not only that, you should tell them to bring any kind of canon. They can bring sub-plots, red herrings, chapters, paragraphs or entire books. And best of all, they can bring *characters*!" "Oh, that'll never work," Dicentra sighed. "Canon is *filled* with dozens of minor characters, many of whom could be dumped right on the GARBAGESCOW without so much as a hollow thud." "Ah, but that's my point. The challenge would be to find the *biggest* character who could possibly be dumped on the SCOW. Oh, anyone could dump students who don't even have whole *names* on the SCOW. Like Stebbins or Summers ? that's easy. Heck, you could practically dump all of Ravensclaw on the SCOW and hardly anyone would miss it. "But is it possible to find a major character for the SCOW? Or a character who appears in multiple books. Or ?" Cindy grinned a toothy smile. "Or a *beloved* character, a character with an actual fan club with an acronym and everything?" "No way," Dicentra said flatly. "Look, I have the perfect canon right here. He's been in all four books, so he's hefty. Yet he's one-dimensional, so he won't take up much space. His main role has been to be a red herring in CoS, but I'll bet most readers didn't even take the bait." "You don't mean . . . you *can't* . . . I won't?" "That's right!" Cindy cried. "*Percy Weasley* is going to take a little trip. A trip *straight* to the landfill!" "I dunno," Dicentra said thoughtfully. "Percy has a lot to do in the books." "Does he now?" Cindy asked, her hands on her hips. "OK, let's walk through Percy's Big Moments in the plots of the four books. This shouldn't take long, I'm thinking," she added with a smirk. "First up is PS/SS. What does Percy *do* in PS/SS?" "Uh," Dicentra rubbed her chin. "Well . . . I can't think of anything important, really." "That's right," Cindy said, nodding. "Now in CoS, Percy has a bit of a role there. He catches Ron outside Myrtle's bathroom or something. And Percy kisses his girlfriend, and we're supposed to buy Percy as the villain in CoS. But I really doubt anyone fell for that." "What about PoA?" Dicentra asked, her eyes suddenly wide. "Percy had a lot to do in PoA. He had a conversation with Dumbledore and Snape after Black broke into the castle." "Well, how superfluous can you be if you're the third wheel in a conversation?" Cindy replied. Dicentra folded her arms defiantly. "Well, Percy does quite a lot in GoF. Surely that counts for something." "Well, let's take stock." Cindy said "Percy apparates, attends the QWC, talks about his job, fixes tea for Mr. Crouch, splashes out into the Lake at the second task and answers an owl from Ron. He wasn't even attending Hogwarts, for heaven's sake. None of these things had much to do with the plot. "No, I'm afraid I'll have to offer up Percy as the most superfluous major character in the series so far. He's a Weasley -? the brother of the hero's best friend. He's a prefect, so he is in a position of authority. Given how many opportunities Percy has had to become involved in the central plots of the books, he somehow never does, does he? So he's superfluous. "You want more proof? Have a look at the Lexicon. The chapter-by- chapter summaries for PS/SS, CoS and GoF, don't even *mention* Percy. How superfluous can you get when the Master Guide For LOON- acy doesn't even acknowledge your role in the plot." "Nah, I'm not buying it," Dicentra replied. "Hagrid has been in all four books, and he doesn't factor into the plot either. But no one would say Hagrid was superfluous." "Well, as much as I'd *love* to drag Hagrid aboard the SCOW, I just can't," Cindy said, sighing heavily. "Hagrid rescued Harry from the Dursleys, and he later leaked key information in PS/SS. Harry confides in Hagrid. Hagrid provides all manner of useful background information. Hagrid bred the screwts, and without Hagrid there would be no Buckbeak and no Sirius's escape. No, Hagrid isn't superfluous, I'm sorry to say." Dicentra paused, saying nothing, shaking her head slowly from side to side. "I know this is hard." Cindy patted Dicentra awkwardly on the shoulder. "We've never thrown a character on the SCOW before. But I think you're ready to take this next step." "Mmmm, I'll think about it," Dicentra said, standing slowly. She brushed her hair out of her eyes and marched to the deck rail. "Hey, where are you going? You owe me a ruling on Percy!" Cindy shouted after her. Dicentra climbed the deck rail, straddling it. "I'm going for a swim. It's the only way I can really think," she said, as she flung herself overboard and dived gracefully into the Bay. ***************** Cindy *************** For an explanation of the acronyms and theories in this post, visit Hypothetic Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin20Files/hypoth eticalley.htm and Inish Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 2 12:46:04 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 12:46:04 -0000 Subject: Snape the Half-blood? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44793 Is Snape a half-blood? Not half-vampire, or half-dementor, or half any other 'interestin' creature' but plain old half-muggle. Consider: 'Severus' certainly sounds like the sort of name an pure wizarding family would give their child, but it might also be the sort of name a wizarding parent married to a muggle would insist on - to signify that *their* heritage is the more important. 'Snape' is an English place name. It could be either a perfectly ordinary muggle name, or an 'old wizarding family' name. The Death Eaters *prefer* pure-bloods - but the half-blood Voldemort is unlikely to turn away an equally half-blood Severus Snape expressing a deep hatred of his muggle background and muggle blood. There is no suggestion that half-blood and muggle-borns are not sorted into Slytherin. Malfoy might not want them there, but he's not the Sorting Hat. Tom Riddle *was* in Slytherin; and he was a half- blood. In the MTMNBM, Moaning Myrtle has a Slytherin tie (since the balilisk killed her, she may well have been a muggle born). Snape refers to "foolish wand-waving". [PS/SS Ch. 8 p.102 UK paperback]. This is a strange comment for a full-blood wizard to make. For one thing, it isn't that Snape is bad at wand-waving. He shows considerable expertise in the Shrieking Shack [PoA Ch.19, UK hardback] and in CoS is described as having experience in duelling [See CoS Ch. 11]. Further, wizards brought up in the WW see their parents using wands as a serious tool from babyhood.[See especially GoF Ch.7 p.75 UK hardback for some baby wizards using wands] What other wizard *ever* regards wand-waving as foolish? Harry, brought up in a muggle environment. PS/SS Ch 5 pp. 64- 65: "Harry took the wand and (feeling foolish) waved it around a bit... For Snape to see wand waving as 'foolish' suggests that he's been brought up *outside* the WW, where wand-waving is just a game of 'let's pretend'. Snape is good at logic. To quote bboy in post #44761: > logic to a muggle is a systematic method of problem > solving. If a muggle wants to make a chair, he needs to make a great > application of the problem solving skills of logic and math, not to > mention the skilled use of tools. > A magic person on the other hand, waves his wand and has a chair. > There really is no problem to solve, and therefore, they have little > need for the same type of analytical problem solving that a muggle > does. > A magic person would have a hard time solving the Riddle of the > Potions, because he/she has never had to lay our a problem in a > structured way, anaylize all the aspects, apply analytical thinking > and structured problems solving, and arrive at a correct answer. > These are all learned skills and few wizards have ever needed to > learn them. So where did Snape learn them? Not only does he use logic in preference to a spell, he uses a riddle in the kind of format that Muggles solve for fun - a pure logic puzzle, different from the 'wordplay' riddle that the Sphinx later uses in Ch. 31 of GoF [pp. 546-547, UK hardback]. His love of potions would also fit with a muggle background - it's a very 'scientific' magical art: to quote Olivia in post # 44750 - > Potions is chemistry. And just as chemistry requires a good > understanding of mathematics, so does Potions. They have to be very > precise in their measurements and some Potions seem to be very time- > sensitive. It also requires a good bit of logic and deduction. Plus > they're learning about the different ingredients they're using, so > there's a little basic science in there as well. Is Snape's background like Voldemort's and Harry's? A half-blood boy, brought up by the muggle side of his family? Whose 'muggle' relatives or foster parents disliked his magical blood; and who went the DE route as a way of trying to reject that side of himself? And then, of course, he found out that the DE's were even nastier than the muggles... Pip!Squeak [and it would be funny if Snape's muggle foster family were called Evans, wouldn't it?] From penumbra10 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 05:43:10 2002 From: penumbra10 at yahoo.com (Judy M. Ellis) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 05:43:10 -0000 Subject: The Ginny Weasley Quotient In-Reply-To: <20021001090012.1299.qmail@web40310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44794 Lilac quoted Jessica: > ...Ginny Weasley is a serious thorn in my side. She's the > wild card. Right now, she's merely a caricature and > that makes me extremely suspicious. > > Lilac responded: > > ...I've always been suspicious of why she played such a big role in COS, and then disappeared into the background again. When I read the series the first time, I kept looking for more development about Ginny from books 3 and 4, but to no avail. Jessica: > > Ginny?'s just been too much giggly and blushing in the first > four books to impress me much. In fact, she embodies > all the stereotypical traits of femininity that I find > highly irritating ???? and of which Hermione represents > an antithesis. Ginny?'?'s entire identity is woven around > her schoolgirl crush on Harry. The only book in which > she plays any importance, CoS, centers on how her > seemingly all-consuming infatuation of Harry nearly > topples the balance of the universe and leaves her in > need of rescuing. Please. Does she do *anything* but > sit around pining for Harry?" > >Lilac: > Perhaps I don?'t find her irritating because I remember an 11-14 year old me who had crushes and blushed incessantly. But I grew out of it, and there is evidence she is growing out of this as well. > > I understand we have many highly intelligent females on this list who relate completely with Hermione, and so it makes sense why Ginny is an irritation. But, what if you were judged for the rest of your life by how you were at 11, or how you were perceived to be by others? Isn't Dumbledore a firm believer in second chances (i.e. Snape)? I know I grew out of my 11-year-old Ginny-ness, became over- the-top Hermione-ish in high school and college, and have settled into a nice balance between the two characters now. > > I just want to sum it up by saying that I?'m keeping an open mind concerning ships and character development, especially in underdeveloped characters such as Ginny. To borrow a phrase from Tolkien, my heart tells me that Ginny has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end. Because, as we know all too well, anything is possible in the Potterverse. Judy writes: There are several things that bother me about Ginny and none of them have to do with her blushing and giggling or her crush on Harry. As Lilac pointed out, some girls are just that way--and it's perfectly O.K. I loved pink and giggled a lot too. That part of me is merged into who I am now. What bothers me about Ginny is her nearly total self- absorbsion. It is natural for young adolescents to strongly focus on themselves, but Ginny's is unnatural. When she is not being self- absorbed, she is obscessing over Harry. JKR uses Tom Riddle's ranting soliloquy on how he managed to escape the diary to reveal information about Ginny Harry could not possibly have otherwise been privy to: "Little Ginny's been writing in it for months and months, telling me all her pitiful woes--how her brothers tease her, how she had to come to school in secondhand robes and how" -- Riddle's eyes glinted -- "how she didn't think the famous, good, great Harry Potter would ever like her..." Cos Ch. 7. Riddle also talks about her pouring out her deepest fears and her darkest secrets --her soul, which caused Riddle to grow stronger. These sound like the normal things that would trouble an 11-year-old except for 'deepest fears'and 'darkest secrets.' I don't know about anyone else, but my "darkest secrets" at age 11 were I liked a boy who sat two seats over and I'd started my cycle. Even taking into consideration that Voldemort is the King of Melodrama, that statement seems strange. Then consider her rescue: We know that Harry was very dirty and covered in blood as well because JKR says so. Harry runs over to her and attempts to revive her. She is disoriented at first then tries to explain what had happened to her. She asks how he managed to kill the Basilisk, then cries about the possibility of being expelled, but she never once asks if he is hurt or manages a stammering thank you, even after she is safe with her parents and absolved. Don't you find that the least bit odd? We next see her "perfectly happy" again. Now, if she were so miserable as to have to write all her woes in Tom's diary,if she indeed told him that "no one understood her like him," she must be hiding something from her family and is just putting on a brave face. I think something is very wrong with this picture. Self-absorbsion is ultimately self-destructive. In Books 3 and 4 she is almost like a brooding shadow. Perhaps Lilac can tell if we ever see her giggling merrily with her friends. I only remember seeing her with Hermione or hovering around the fringes of the Trio. If she is the chatterbox Ron says she is, and brave enough to be sorted into Gryffindor, why not stammer, stumble and mumble her way through asking Harry to take her to the Yule Ball as Harry did Cho and Ron did Fleur? After all, a Hufflepuff, who didn't even know Harry managed it. In comparing Ginny to Lily, there seems to be one glaring difference: Lily is open and giving. We see it in PS/SS when she comes home from school happily showing her family what she'd learned, we see it very dramatically in her final sacrifice to save Harry. Ginny, on the other hand, seems closed in despite the fact that she tries to comfort Ron when he was rejected by Fleur in GoF. If JKR wanted to develop Ginny in the first four books beyond the sketch stage, there were a lot of ways she could have done it, even using Harry's POV. There is a reason JKR is keeping a veil of mystery around her until Book 5 and I'm not convinced they are all good. --Judy From sugarkadi at aol.com Wed Oct 2 06:07:44 2002 From: sugarkadi at aol.com (sugarkadi at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 02:07:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: All a dream (was End of Harry Potter Series) Message-ID: <04D15026.5FF0AE18.0290C41F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44795 > Amy Z wrote: > >>>>It's been done a zillion times and is trite. This, of course, is > a matter of opinion, and it can be done beautifully, as in > The Wizard > of Oz .<<<< I was jus thinking of a way that the dream ending could be done but without losign the reality of Hogwarts. It happeneed in a Hanson (bear with me) fan fiction I read a few years ago, where the various fan story goes on and then the last chapter is Taylor waking up at age 5 or so, and asking his brothers something about the band. They were like "Band? Huh?" Of course, the reader knows that they did become a band, so the events in the story seem like they will happen; that his dream is telling the future (there's a word for that, I'm sure). Well, Rowling could possibly end it with 11 year old Harry waking from a bizarre but awesome dream, his Aunt Petunia telling him to get up and get the mail, and him discovering a letter addressed to Mr. H. Potter, etc. Then we would know that the events actually *do* happen. I seriously doubt this will happen, but it's another thoguht out there. I think this is the only dream ending I could maybe be satisfied with. ~Katey Now could anyone tell me a reason why this won't work? I really don't want it to work. Please? From brainattic at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 09:27:43 2002 From: brainattic at yahoo.com (brainattic) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 09:27:43 -0000 Subject: obstruction of justice Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44796 According to the Lexicon, Riddle murdered his father's family during the summer vacation before his seventh year. Why wasn't he caught by the Ministry for violating the Decree for the Restriction of Underage Wizardry? Also, since they seem to be able to pinpoint your exact location and what kind of spell you did, shouldn't they have known that he perfomed the Avada Kedavra Curse? Of course, the whole thing having happened during WWII(early 1940's), it's possible they were quite distracted at the time. "Brain attic" From htfulcher at comcast.net Wed Oct 2 12:32:07 2002 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 12:32:07 -0000 Subject: All a dream (was End of Harry Potter Series) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44797 Melody write: >When this came up before, I made the comparison to the possible dream ending interpretation in Frankenstein. It was wisely pointed out [I'm sorry, but I do not remember by who.] afterwards that Frankenstein (as also with the movie Wizard of Oz) is written in a fashion that provides the *real* possibility of the dream interpretation. Both the book and the movie have a box in box construction that allows for a reality before and after. < MarEphraim rejoins: Where the possibility of Frankenstein as a 'dream' enters I don't know. As pointed out by somebody earlier, the book IS a 'frame story' however a casual read of the last two pages will reveal that the Baron's story is not to be interpreted as a dream. (And W/Oz was only a dream to Louis B Meyer). Those considering the possibility of the HP series being revealed at the end to be a dream should reflect that this possibility would only work for the fans one of two ways. The first possibility would have to be something along the lines of Harry coming out of a coma from which he had suffered for a long time (from the car crash?). I mean, a dream is a dream, but 7 volumes worth of dreaming is a long dream! For reader satisfaction, this would require that James and Lily are there at the ending alive and well, furtively waiting for their son to awaken ("OH Auntie Em!"). A driving theme throughout the books is Harry's desire for a loving family (see various posts about Weasley's as surrogate family, Hermione and Ron as surrogate family, etc.) and any dream ending that left Harry in the home of the Dursleys would be patently unacceptable. Now if JKR has the genius to pull off such an ending (and I think we all consider that if anyone could she might) perhaps it could work, but I doubt it. As an aside: I don't believe Dumbledore will die at the end either. This idea seems to rest on the consideration that Harry alone will be left to challenge You Know Who. Pish posh! A convincing argument has been made in various threads that what will defeat He Who Must Not Be Named does lie in magic but strength of character. Harry will be able to do that without the sacrifice of Dumbledore. Also, the only possible benefit to the major plot of a departed Albus would be that Harry succeed him has Head Master. Let's be clear, Harry needs to work on his grades then. Too much time chasing adventures, not enough time in the library with Hermione! The only other possibility for a dream sequence ending would be if Harry awoke to find that the Dursleys have actually always been nice people and that he truly had been to the school for incurably criminal boys. This would require a major leap to some sort of Jungian personality integration (which would mean Harry and You Know Who were flip sides of the same coin -- consider Tom Riddle's appearance, etc., etc., etc.). Under this scenario the series would be a psychological reflection on the fantasy life of a criminally dysfunctional personality as it struggles towards a more moral and law abiding focus. Now to my mind, only the second possibility could actually work. Think of the bars on the windows in CoS, PoA with Sirius as the caseworker who is finally breaking through to the misanthropically disturbed Harry. The question is: would any of us truthfully consider that this would be the direction JKR is taking? Oh sure, we'd all read it once, but would we ever again? And would we let our children read it? No, I don't believe canon supports the dream-ending thesis. MarEprhaim From htfulcher at comcast.net Wed Oct 2 12:53:32 2002 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 12:53:32 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on SHIPS In-Reply-To: <20021002042015.15382.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44798 Nicole writes: >Ginny is really the only other person in the WW who has some idea of what Harry has suffered at the hands of Voldemort. She too has been tortured by him, which is something that Ron and Hermione and most other people in the WW cannot possibly understand and relate to, at this point. I think that Harry will find a kindred spirit in Ginny and that's very important to him because, as Jessica pointed out, he is very isolated and seems to feel very alone. [snip] I think that Ginny and Harry will become a support to one another and that, through this support system, they will begin to heal.< A fantastic analysis! I had considered a Harry/Ginny pairing as something that would eventually (if not ultimately) come to pass, but for the reason of Harry's relationship with the Weasley clan as a whole. But it now strikes me that TR using Ginny might have been more than a convenience. He would know, of course that she knows and has a crush on Harry, that Harry and her brother are best friends, and that Harry would want to save anyone under those circumstances, etc.. However, mightn't TR also have picked up on the fact that perhaps Harry has some as yet unrealized feelings for Ginny that would further drive him to save her (and not, say, wait for Dumbledore)? Much has been said about the story being set from Harry's POV. Now this could be going out on a limb here, but from the beginning Ginny is not just at little sister in his best friend's household. Harry notices her blush, etc. at every turn. Okay, the elbow incident would be noticed by anyone, but most other mentions of Ginny are a bit more noteworthy to push this possibility. If Harry doesn't have some sub-conscious love for Ginny why does she get mentioned as present in so many situations where we might otherwise expect a mention of, say, Neville, or Lee Jordan, etc.. Just speculation, but I'm now rereading the series (only 4th time, but 4th time this year since being introduced to HP at the movies by my daughter) and intend to keep my eyes open for Ginny sightings. MarEprhaim From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 14:00:11 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 14:00:11 -0000 Subject: The Stag as Symbolic of Godric Gryffindor (WAS: Harry's Patronus) In-Reply-To: <01f001c269bd$5fa3c920$c69ecdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44799 Richelle wrote: > Anyway, to rephrase my question slightly, the particular form his > patronus took was apparently unusual, according to Dumbledore, who > at the time didn't know James was an animagus (Malfoy & co as fake > dementors at Quidditch game). So therefore all patronuses must > take a form unique to the person they are defending. Which means > it must've come from somewhere in Harry's subconscious. Did he, as > a 15 month old or younger, see his father as a stag? Is this how > he subconsciously associated protection with a stag? Now me: Thanks, Richelle, for giving me an opportunity to expound upon one of my favorite HP theories! Here's what JKR has to say about animagi (AOL 2000 chat): Q from 'Narri': "Does the animal one turns into as an Animagi reflect your personality?" JKR: "Very well deduced, Narri! I personally would like to think that I would transform into an otter, which is my favorite animal. Imagine how horrible it would be if I turned out to be a cockroach!" Since the patronus takes the form of James' animagus, is it too far of a stretch to think that the stag may also reflect Harry's personality, since Harry is James' son and presumably has inherited some of James' personality traits? Even Sirius says "You are truly your father's son." I also think the stag is representative of what I believe to be James and Harry's descendancy from Godric Gryffindor. St. Godric is represented in art with a stag by his side, and there are several legends about St. Godric's associations with stags (including one where St. Godric affords a hunted stag protection, which to me is representative of how the Fidelius Charm works). ~Phyllis From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 2 15:47:39 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 15:47:39 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Superfluous!Percy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44800 Eileen looks up from her desk and sees a horrible sight. Captain Cindy is doing the hornpipe (or something possibly meant to be the hornpipe) on the deck of a a GARBAGESCOW. That can't be good. That just cannot be good. She jumps into the kayak moored at the Theory Bay dock and rows towards the GARBAGESCOW. "Permission to come aboard or do I want to?" she calls out to Cindy. "You see, I have concerns about this vessel." "Well, come on board and state them. Heaven knows we could do with a little conversation." Eileen jumps on board. She flicks a few spots of dust off her clothes, adjusts her glasses, and straightens her P.I.N.E. badge. "My concern is that nowhere in Theoretic Alley or Inish Alley can I find mention of this ship. You ended up your post by referring me to those ill-famed streets but no-one there could tell me anything about what GARBAGESCOW stands for. However, due to my brilliant detective work, I think I'm beginning to get the picture. It's a place for superfluous characters?" "Like Percy Weasley," said Cindy. "You do want to generate some excitement on the Bay, don't you? You are aware, of course, that Penny, Elkins, myself etc. believe that Percy is key to the entire series and only becomes more important the further you go?" "Really?" smirks Cindy. "Well, let's take a look at his role in canon." "Yes, let's," says Eileen. "May I warn you that I have gone through all four books and catalogued Percy appearances? And I assure you Percy has a role. A big role." A look of fear appears on Cindy's face, but it quickly disappears. > "Does he now?" Cindy asked, her hands on her hips. "OK, let's walk > through Percy's Big Moments in the plots of the four books. This > shouldn't take long, I'm thinking," she added with a smirk. > > "First up is PS/SS. What does Percy *do* in PS/SS?" "Oh, I'll give you that. Percy does nothing in PS/SS. In fact, when I first read PS/SS I was quite disappointed by how JKR had handled the plot and characters. I thought she had really messed up actually. You know that scene where the Sorting Hat suggests Harry belongs in Slytherin? Never in the entire book does she adress that intriguing question. I complained about that to everyone." "But she adresses the question in CoS!" cries Cindy. "So I discovered when a few days later I got my hands on CoS. So now that you've proved my point..." "What point?" cries Cindy. "The point that JKR likes to set up situations and characters for future books. I don't think I need to go far into that. It's discussed often enough on the list. PS/SS does not feature a Percy plot but it does set up Percy for the future plot." "How?" "Well, there's the elementary establishment of who Percy is. The red-haired prefect with the glasses and the bossy streak. But PS/SS also sets up the crucial aspect of the Percy plot. His relationship with his family. If we didn't have the Christmas scene in PS/SS, we wouldn't be able to judge that things are going wrong later. PS/SS is the calm before the storm. It's the book in which Ron is not hostile to Percy (check his conversation with Harry on the train) and in which Fred and George show a great deal of affection for their older brother (the Christmas scene.) This is all important because it's going to change." "That analysis only holds up if Percy takes on a more important role later," says Cindy scornfully. "And he doesn't." "Are you sure about that?" "Yes, >Now in CoS, Percy has a bit > of a role there. He catches Ron outside Myrtle's bathroom or > something. And Percy kisses his girlfriend, and we're supposed to > buy Percy as the villain in CoS. But I really doubt anyone fell for > that." "Well, I bought Draco's line Percy was snooping around and I thought he was going to get it, to tell the truth. I was very surprised when it was Ginny who was dragged down to the Chamber." "Anyway, where's Percy's role there?" "He catches Ron outside Myrtle's bathroom." "That's all?" says Cindy. "Let's take a look at it. "You don't even care for Ginny." Very nasty thing for Ron to say, don't you think? What had Percy done to deserve it?" "I thought you were a member of C.R.A.B." "So I am, but I'm not letting Ron off the hook here. This is the first sign that the Weasley family dynamic has gone sour. Because of the Percy caricature, it reads as a very funny scene but it's not for the participants. Ron accuses his brother for the first time of not caring for the family, of valuing his ambition over them, and Percy reacts abruptly, taking the points from Gryffindor, and rushing off. Later in the book when Percy seems to be in shock after Penny and Hermione are petrified, may I draw your attention to Fred and George's reaction? They insinuate that he didn't think the monster of Slytherin would attack a prefect. Again, very funny, but very cruel as well. That's exactly how to respond to siblings in shock over classmates being almost killed and left unconscious by unknown monsters. Wonder why Fred and George don't respond to Harry and Ron's shock that way? All is not well with the Weasleys. I think that this is more important that a lot of the obvious plot of CoS." "How about PoA?" "Oh you mean the book where there isn't a friendly exchange between Percy and his siblings from beginning to end?" "But his role?" "I'm suggesting that his role is tied up to his relationship to his family. Yes, he's endearing trying to eavesdrop on Snape and Dumbledore, but that's not his role. His role is best illustrated when he and Ron start yelling at each other after Ron claims to have seen Sirius Black in his bedroom." "Percy was being an idiot there," says Cindy. "I absolutely agree. I never said my perfect prefect was a saint. Of course he has flaws. Of course he's irritating to live with. That's why he's important." "What about GoF then? >"Percy apparates, attends the > QWC, talks about his job, fixes tea for Mr. Crouch, splashes out > into the Lake at the second task and answers an owl from Ron. He > wasn't even attending Hogwarts, for heaven's sake. None of these > things had much to do with the plot." "Cindy, aren't you ashamed of yourself?" "Why should I be?" "Because that is even more disgenuous than your humpty-dumptied BANG assesments and that's saying a lot. I mean... what sort of a summary is that?" "A summary of Percy's actions." "Hmphhhhh," says Eileen. "Here's a summary of Percy in GoF. Gets a job at the Ministry, shows signs of becoming a workaholic, transfers filial loyalties to Mr. Crouch, breaks with his parents, is avoided by his siblings, is accused by Ron of being ready to betray his family to further his ambition, yet nevertheless shows his love for Ron in the second task scene. Oh and is used as a dupe to bring back Voldemort." "How's that important to the plot?" asks Cindy. "Cindy, you're hopeless. How can you read that summary and not see how important Percy was in GoF and will be in future books?" "Well, I don't see it." "Let me spell it out. In fact, I'll quote myself back in February responding to your allegations that Percy didn't have an important role in future books: ------------------------------------------------------------- JKR has promised that Percy's particular problem will be adressed in Book V. How on earth can she have Percy making huge decisions, and not develop him further. I don't see the Percy caricature holding for any of the choices. Imagine: "I've decided to throw my lot in with Dumbledore," said Percy pompously. OR "Oh well," said Fred. "Percy's joined Voldemort." "Said it'd look good on his resume," smirked George. OR "Could you be a bit more quiet?" Percy said crossly. "I'm working on waffling between good and evil. Oh, hello Harry." No, there's a big choice to be made and by necessity the choice is going to tell us a lot more about Percy. --------------------------------------------------------------- Do you honestly believe Cindy that Percy isn't going to choose for the Ministry or his family in the upcoming books? Because if you don't, how can Percy not have an important role in the story? He's been set up extensively. He has a choice ahead of him. That choice has the capacity to destroy the Weasley family. I call this important enough. Oh, and Tabouli we need a new acronym to prove to the Bay that superfluous is not a word to describe Percy. "Well who would you put on the SCOW?" cries Cindy. "You never drop by here! Do you know what effect that has on Dicentra's psyche?" "Well, how about McGonagall? She's either superfluous or doing a very good imitation of it." "That's not good enough, Eileen," says Cindy. "You owe Dicentra something bigger." "I would suggest someone but I know I'd be lynched." "Who?" "The Ever-So-Lame Draco Malfoy." "Ahhhhhhhhhh..." says Cindy. ----------------------------------------------------------- For an explanation of the acronyms and theories in this post, visit Hypothetic Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin20Files/hypotheticalley.htm and Inish Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=13 From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Oct 2 15:51:02 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 15:51:02 -0000 Subject: The Ginny Weasley Quotient In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44801 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Judy M. Ellis" wrote: > > What bothers me about Ginny is her nearly total self- > absorbsion. It is natural for young adolescents to strongly focus on themselves, but Ginny's is unnatural. When she is not being self- absorbed, she is obscessing over Harry. JKR uses Tom Riddle's ranting soliloquy on how he managed to escape the diary to reveal nformation about Ginny Harry could not possibly have otherwise been > privy to: > > "Little Ginny's been writing in it for months and months, telling me all her pitiful woes--how her brothers tease her, how she had to come to school in secondhand robes and how" -- Riddle's eyes > glinted -- "how she didn't think the famous, good, great Harry > Potter would ever like her..." Cos Ch. 7. Riddle also talks about her pouring out her deepest fears and her darkest secrets --her > soul, which caused Riddle to grow stronger. > > These sound like the normal things that would trouble an 11-year-old except for 'deepest fears'and 'darkest secrets.' don't know about anyone else, but my "darkest secrets" at age 11 were I liked a boy who sat two seats over and I'd started my cycle. Even taking into consideration that Voldemort is the King of Melodrama, that statement seems strange.<< But as you say, Riddle's the King of Melodrama and he's a master manipulator too. I don't suppose Ginny's secrets were any deeper or darker than yours, or mine...but it would have been very easy to make *me* believe, at age eleven or even older, that the perfectly normal but very new and unfamiliar adolescent feelings I was having were something to be ashamed of. And even Harry at age fourteen is so self-conscious that he dreads anyone finding out how he feels about Cho, and thinks it would sound melodramatic to tell Ron that someone is trying to kill him. (That's often overlooked, BTW. Harry *did* lie to Ron.) >> Then consider her rescue: We know that Harry was very dirty and covered in blood as well because JKR says so. Harry runs over to her and attempts to revive her. She is disoriented at first then tries to explain what had happened to her. She asks how he managed to kill the Basilisk, then cries about the possibility of being expelled, but she never once asks if he is hurt or manages a stammering thank you, even after she is safe with her parents and absolved. Don't you find that the least bit odd? << Not really. How do you thank someone for something like that? Especially at age eleven. I don't recall that Hermione ever thanked the boys for saving her from the Troll, or that Harry ever thanked Snape or Hermione for saving him from Quirrell's curse or Hagrid for rescuing him from the Dursleys or Dumbledore for saving him from Voldemort in the end. If she is the chatterbox Ron says > she is, and brave enough to be sorted into Gryffindor, why not > stammer, stumble and mumble her way through asking Harry to take her to the Yule Ball as Harry did Cho and Ron did Fleur? Because she was a third year. She couldn't invite *anyone* to the ball. It'd be pretty pushy to ask Harry or anyone else to invite her to a function she wouldn't otherwise be entitled to attend. Pippin From crussell at arkansas.net Wed Oct 2 16:01:00 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 16:01:00 -0000 Subject: All a dream (was End of Harry Potter Series) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44802 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marephraim" wrote: > The question is: would any of us truthfully consider that this would be the direction JKR is taking? Oh sure, we'd all read it once, but would we ever again? And would we let our children read it? No, I don't believe canon supports the dream-ending thesis. I just wanted to put in my opinion concerning the "dream" ending topic. IMO, I agree with the statement quoted above. The dream ending would certainly have a lot of shock value-but other than that I cannot see that it would support the major themes that have been presented through the series. IMO, as I have stated before, freedom of choice and the ramifications of those choices has always been a central theme. Who among us, chooses what he dreams about? In our dreams, we are more or less hapless victims of our subconscious-good or bad endings- we make no "conscious" decisions in our dreams. Throughout the series, so far, Harry has been carefully taught by Dumbledore and others that he must not see himself as a victim but as the ruler of his fate. He must take charge-make the right decisions- choose the right friends and so fourth. Perhaps I am being dense, if anyone can show me how the "all a dream" ending could fit into and support this concept-please let me know. bugaloo37-who is certainly open to suggestions From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 16:16:29 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 16:16:29 -0000 Subject: Random Collection of Thoughts. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44803 Random Collection of Thoughts. Death and Book 5- I get the sense that we are all so eager for book 5 that we are trying to cram the entire series into it. JKRowling does say that there will be more deaths, but did she actually say there would be significant deaths in book 5? Certainly, the war will start and there will be deaths. Maybe even deaths of people we know. But is it clear that a major player, a significant character will die? I'm sure we've covered this, but I can't track it down. I guess part of my reason for asking that question, is that we seem to be killing a lot of people in book 5. My personal theory is that one of the secondary characters will become more prominent in the next book, and who ever that is, is as good as dead. Standard practice, create sympathy for a disposable character and then sacrifice him/her. Although, I admit that JKR can be pretty tricky at times. She may build up one character up as a distraction, only to take another. This is how I see the story going, although the characters are somewhat interchangeable. Harry gradually develops a relationship with Cho Chang. They talk over their bad feelings about Cedric, and become very close, as Harry develops love and endearment for Chang, and so, we too grow to love her. Well, if that happens, she as good as dead. Harry's heart is broken; our hearts are broken. Poor Harry, everything he loves dies. How hopeless and sad is that? If I recall correctly, speculation about death in book FOUR lead us to kill off just about everyone. When it finally happened, it was a relatively minor although very sympathetic character. JKR, I believe, said she cried when she wrote Cedric's death. I felt very sad too. He was a very sympathetic character and I liked him. I still find myself drifting deep into my own internal realm of HP, and searching for ways to avenge and honor Cedric. The best I can do though, is write my own story where he is honored. Anyway, I think the real deaths, the ones that will cut us to the core, rip out our hearts, are going to occur in book 6 and be avenged in book seven. I still see book 5 as more of a continuation combined with the beginning of a new era. Relationships- Yes or No? Will they or won't they? I think a significant part of GoF was a setup for future relationships; romantic, friendship, family, etc... So, absolutely, relationship including romantic relationship are going to play a big role in the next book. I think Ron and Hermione will continue to have a stormy relationship. She will pay attention to someone else (Vikor? Harry?), Ron will be jealous, but they will eventually end as good friends again with an understanding that they have deep affection for each other, and that the affection has the potential to develop into more. I see the book ending with them having this affectionate love for each other, but I think the romantic potential comes later. I still think the key relationship will be Harry/Cho, and that this relationship will lead to temporary bad feelings among the Trio. I still think, it will be Harry's love Cho Chang that dies. Ginny's character, I don't think is well developed enough to make a judgment on her relationship potential with anyone. We hardly know who she is, that makes it difficult to say that she's the right girl for Harry. A Harry/Ginny relationship would be a great way for Harry to finally become a member of the Weasley family. If there is a Harry/Ginny relationship, I see it coming later in the Series when her character is more well defined. Riddle and Voldemort- Well, if I haven't already bored you to death, I have one more thing I'd like to whine about. Some people seem to think that Voldemort has direct knowledge of what happened in the Chamber of Secrets. How could that be possible? As far as I'm concerned it's not possible. The Tom Riddle that appeared in the chamber is not the Tom Riddle who lived his life and grew up to become Voldemort. The CoS Tom Riddle was a separate physical form that was created by the diary stealing Ginny's soul. That was a separate and unique Tom Riddle that lived in parallel to the real Tom Riddle, but like all parallel things, their lives never did intersect. There was never any connection between Voldemort and CoS Tom Riddle other than the CoS Riddle being created from a diary written by the real Tom Riddle. Since the CoS Tom Riddle was a separate and unique entity, there is no way that the Voldemort could have direct knowledge of what happen in the Chamber of Secrets. Any I right or wrong here? bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 16:26:48 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 16:26:48 -0000 Subject: obstruction of justice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44804 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "brainattic" wrote: > According to the Lexicon, Riddle murdered his father's family during > the summer vacation before his seventh year. Why wasn't he caught by > the Ministry for violating the Decree for the Restriction of Underage > Wizardry? Also, since they seem to be able to pinpoint your exact > location and what kind of spell you did, shouldn't they have known > that he perfomed the Avada Kedavra Curse? > Of course, the whole thing having happened during WWII(early 1940's), > it's possible they were quite distracted at the time. > > "Brain attic" bboy_mn: There seems to be a school of thought that the Ministry is keeping an espicially close eye on Harry's house. Any sign of magic on Privet Drive could be a sign that Voldemort had tracked Harry down, and they would need to respond right away. Since Fred and George are performing magic all the time, I seriously doubt that everyone gets that same level of surveillance. If they sensed all magic in progress, I would think the Ministry would be so overloaded with input that they would be overwhelmed. So it doesn't seem reasonable that the Ministry monitors all magic everywhere all the time. I think Harry is a special case and that's why they detect things so quickly. Although, I can't help being curious about how they are monitoring him. Maybe we will eventually find out. bboy_mn From crussell at arkansas.net Wed Oct 2 17:26:18 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 17:26:18 -0000 Subject: More about Lily-Please!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44805 We have been told at various times by JKR, that more information will be forthcoming concerning Lily Potter. We have also been told that Ginny Weasley's character will be furthered developped in book 5. IMO, there can be no comparisons made at this point between Lily/Ginny or Lily/Hermione. Other than the obvious. For instance we know that Lily was red-headed-so is Ginny. We know that Lily was muggle-born-so is Hermione. IMO, we do not know enough about Lily as a Hogwart's student or as an adult to make viable comparisons. At this point, we know a great deal about Hermione-her physical appearance, her intelligence, and her nobility of character. We know very little about Ginny-she is Ron's little sister, who has a crush on Harry. We know even less about Lily. IMO, book 5 will fill in a lot of the "gaps" concerning Ginny and hopefully, Lily also. IMO, right now, Lily Potter-who she was, what her abilities were, etc., is one of the most important mysteries in the HP series. IMO, in fact, I believe Lily Potter may be the key to a great many mysteries. bugaloo37-who is not going to make comparisons until she has some more facts concerning Lily From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 17:43:03 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 17:43:03 -0000 Subject: Book 5 Deaths and Diary!Riddle (WAS: Random Collection of Thoughts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44806 bboy_mn wrote: > JKRowling does say that there will be more deaths, but did she > actually say there would be significant deaths in book 5? Now me: bboy, I'm sharing Eloise's angst with you about not reading our posts that reply to your questions! I replied to your question on this in post #44107 and provided three JKR interview quotes in which she does not directly reference deaths in Book 5. However, she does say that the deaths *start* in Book 4, which implies that subsequent books will have deaths in them, but there's no specificity about which books they will be. bboy_mn again: > Since the CoS Tom Riddle was a separate and unique entity, there is > no way that the Voldemort could have direct knowledge of what > happen in the Chamber of Secrets. Me again: I agree with you that Diary!Riddle never communicated with Voldemort about what happened in the Chamber since Harry killed Diary!Riddle with the basilisk fang in the Chamber before the diary could be returned to Voldemort. ~Phyllis From crussell at arkansas.net Wed Oct 2 17:51:14 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 17:51:14 -0000 Subject: Random Collection of Thoughts. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44807 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: > Random Collection of Thoughts. > Death and Book 5- > But is it clear that a major player, a significant > character will die? I'm sure we've covered this, but I can't track it down. Now me: The only thing I have read/heard about the death in book 5 is that it will be a special fan of Harry's. The word "special" has given rise to much speculation-even on my part ( and I am not big on speculation). Special? in what way? Your guess is as good as mine. bugaloo37 From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Oct 2 17:46:21 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (=?iso-8859-1?q?Sebastian=20Wuerz?=) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 19:46:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: TBAY: PINE-ing for Superfluous Characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021002174621.56673.qmail@web40309.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44808 First of all, I read some "theory-bay" in the archives, and although I really enjoyed it, I don't think, that I'm able to write one, so please forgive me, if I'm answer the "normal" way. Cindy said: > "But is it possible to find a major character for the SCOW? Or a > character who appears in multiple books. Or ?" Cindy grinned a > toothy smile. "Or a *beloved* character, a character with an > actual > fan club with an acronym and everything?" > I don't know if he has an acronym or if you can count him as a main character, but at least he is in all for books: Peeves! He really has no important scene yet, he is just there to annoy everybody. Another superflous character is Colin Creevey. Okay, he was petrified once, but so were Justin Finch-Fletchley and Penelope Clearwater, and they weren't seen that often later as Colin. Cindy said also: > "Look, I have the perfect canon right here. He's been in all four > books, so he's hefty. Yet he's one-dimensional, so he won't take > up > much space. His main role has been to be a red herring in CoS, but > I'll bet most readers didn't even take the bait." > *Percy Weasley* > Here, I disagree with you. First of all I don't think, Percy is one- dimensional. He seems to be arrogant and pompous most of the time, but he has his moments, when he shows, how much he really cares for his silblings, like the scene, when Ron was hostage in the lake. Okay, I must admit that Chamber of secrets is the only book, where Percy has sort of a role, but you can say the same for Ginny and the only real important moment with the twins was, when they give the Marauders Map to Harry. But Percy is now in a very important position, in the department of international cooperation. To have an allie in this department is very important, like Dumbledore said, that in the light of Voldemorts return, the bounds between the nation, are more important, than ever before, or something like this. And I personally do think, that Percy will allie with Dumbledore Harry etc., and not with Fudge, or even Voldemort. Hickengruendler --------------------------------- Gesendet von http://mail.yahoo.de. M?chten Sie mit einem Gru? antworten? http://grusskarten.yahoo.de. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From crussell at arkansas.net Wed Oct 2 18:15:02 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 18:15:02 -0000 Subject: Snape the Half-blood? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44809 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bluesqueak" wrote: > > There is no suggestion that half-blood and muggle-borns are not > sorted into Slytherin. Malfoy might not want them there, but he's not the Sorting Hat. > > > Pip!Squeak You are correct when you say that Malfoy is not the Sorting Hat. But IIRC, Salazar Slytherin, the founder of Slytherin house, did not want muggle-borns in Hogwarts and left because his opinions in regards to admittance were not honored. IMO, the Sorting Hat is a repository of the four co-founders of Hogwarts-Gryffyndor, Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff, and Slytherin. When I say repository, I mean it contains their values-what they considered to be important qualities for a wizard student. If Slytherin did not want muggle-borns in the school-what makes you think he would want them in his house? You were also correct when you stated that Voldemort obviously does not have a problem with half-bloods as he is one himself. Nor have I heard any member of Slytherin house-Malfoy,etc., make any negative comments regarding anyone's "half-blood" status-only muggle-borns (mudbloods). Snape could very well be a half-blood-but at this point, his "blood" status-like so many other things about him- is a mystery. bugaloo37 From rmatovic at ssk.com Wed Oct 2 19:45:22 2002 From: rmatovic at ssk.com (Rebecca M) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 19:45:22 -0000 Subject: Magic in the holidays (Re: obstruction of justice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44810 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: > > bboy_mn: > There seems to be a school of thought that the Ministry is keeping an > espicially close eye on Harry's house. Any sign of magic on Privet > Drive could be a sign that Voldemort had tracked Harry down, and they > would need to respond right away. > > Since Fred and George are performing magic all the time, I seriously > doubt that everyone gets that same level of surveillance. > >[snip] Another possibility (which does not exclude the idea that Harry is more closely monitored) -- even though 'no magic in the holidays' is a general rule, it's really only applied to those who live in the muggle world. The primary intent of the rule could be to prevent muggle detection of muggle activity. Going back to the young Tom, it's unclear to me that anyone really knew much about his father. He didn't grow up with his father. I don't think there's anyone in the ministry dedicated to tracing blood lines of all and sundry -- Tom knew his father and knew that his mother had been disowned by him, but no one else would know the connection. So I'd say the ministry monitors known wizards living with muggles, but has to be actively monitoring to know that there is something going on. The mysterious death of three muggles wouldn't automatically show up on their radar screen. Although, there is a question about how this is consistent or inconsistent with the detection of a wizard born to muggles -- is there some automatic way that they know when a wizard has been born, but no automatic way that they track magical activity, what is the difference between the modes of detection? RM From ronib at mindspring.com Wed Oct 2 18:37:19 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 18:37:19 -0000 Subject: The Ginny Weasley Quotient In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44811 Judy Writes: >. . . What bothers me about Ginny is her nearly total self- >absorbsion. It is natural for young adolescents to strongly focus >on themselves, but Ginny's is unnatural. When she is not being self- >absorbed, she is obscessing over Harry. > >I only remember seeing her with Hermione or hovering >around the fringes of the Trio. My thoughts: I don't think Ginny is any more self-absorbed than any of us were at that age--from what we see. Now, I don't know what she is like all the time, but I don't see her all the time. Take GoF for example, while H,H, and R are chatting away on the Hogwarts Express, where is Ginny? We don't know. While H, H, R, and Neville are riding to Hogwarts in the horseless carriages, where is Ginny? We don't know. Now, we can suggest a couple of different things. If she cares about nothing but herself and her feeling for Harry, she must be sitting in her own compartment on the train, or in her own carriage thinking, "Oh, poor me! Harry will never notice me!" But I don't think that is likely. I think she is probably hanging out with her own friends that we have not met -- because they have not been relative to the story. Just because we don't see them or meet them, however, we can't assume that they don't exist. She is probably, like any other girl her age, talking about classes, Quidditch, boys (even some other than Harry), clothes, anything! The truth is that we don't see enough of Ginny to know whether or not she is self-absorbed because, 1) she has not been important enough to the story in most cases (except of course in CoS) and 2) she has not been important enough to Harry, who is telling the story after all. I just don't think it is fair to write Ginny off as too silly and giggly or too self-absorbed until we get to know her. We just don't have enough information yet. As for her pitiful woes and deepest fears and darkest secrets (CoS), I'm with Lilac "SHE IS ONLY 11 YEARS OLD!" When I was 11, my deepest fear was that I would be picked last for softball in PE, and my darkest secret was that David, the quarterback of the football team, would find out that I worshipped him and kissed his picture in my yearbook every night before I went to bed. I think she's handled it all pretty well. And if she isn't her usual chatterbox self when Harry is around, is it any wonder? Not only does she think he's dreamy, but he is *THE* HARRY POTTER. Kind of intimidating if you ask me. Finally, as for her reaction at the end of CoS. I think you could write a lot of it off as shock. When shock sets in after a tramatic experience, we're never thinking logically or saying the right thing. Her whole world just crashed down around her. Harry's always concerned he is going to get himself expelled, and he's never unleashed a monster in the school! I don't think she is ungrateful; I think she is upset, embarrassed (that Harry saved her), worried (about what she has done and what will happen to her and the victims), and just plain scared. How many of us could really have done any better? Finally, MarEprhaim wrote > >As an aside: I don't believe Dumbledore will die at the end either. >This idea seems to rest on the consideration that Harry alone will >be left to challenge You Know Who. Pish posh! A convincing argument >has been made in various threads that what will defeat He Who Must >Not Be Named does lie in magic but strength of character. Harry will >be able to do that without the sacrifice of Dumbledore. Also, the >only possible benefit to the major plot of a departed Albus would be >that Harry succeed him has Head Master. Let's be clear, Harry needs >to work on his grades then. Too much time chasing adventures, not >enough time in the library with Hermione! I see no reason Harry would have to be Headmaster. I proposed McGonagall would be promoted, and Hermione would return to Hogwarts as the Transfiguration professor. (And if anything happens to Hagrid, Ron can return as Groundskeeper.) =) Not that I *want* Dumbledore to die; I just think that it is inevitable. Veronica ------------------------------------------ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -- Winston Churchill From sgarfio at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 18:34:33 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sheryl Garfio) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: obstruction of justice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021002183433.75226.qmail@web21406.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44812 brainattic writes: > According to the Lexicon, Riddle murdered his father's family during > the summer vacation before his seventh year. Why wasn't he caught by > the Ministry for violating the Decree for the Restriction of Underage > Wizardry? and bboy_mn replies: > Since Fred and George are performing magic all the time, I seriously > doubt that everyone gets that same level of surveillance. The Weasleys' summer magical exploits are not a violation of the Underage Wizardry law because they take place in the Burrow, which is not in the Muggle world (except for Ron's flying car in CoS, which was in violation of the Muggle artifacts law as well as the Underage Wizardry law, and was quickly detected by the MoM). Magic performed by underage wizards in the WW is perfectly legal. So my question is, do we know for a fact that Tom Riddle spent his childhood in the Muggle world? Do all witches/wizards who choose to marry Muggles necessarily resign themselves to living out their lives (and raising their children) in the Muggle world, or do some bring their Muggle spouses into the WW? We do know that not all of the people in the WW are wizards themselves (for example, Squibs like Filch). If Tom Riddle's father were brought by his witch wife into the WW, then any magic used by young Tom would not have been considered a violation. Of course, the actual *type* of magic he used that summer was illegal for *all* wizards, but apparently the MoM does not have the capability to detect this? If not, one wonders why a method for detecting the use of AK has not been developed, especially since it is such a powerful curse that it would presumably cause a high degree of disturbance in the "Force", if you will. A note about SHIPs in response to Jessica's wonderful, lengthy, and oft-quoted post: JKR has an outstanding opportunity here to model appropriate loving relationships for young people at a critical time in their development. Love should be about things like commitment, sacrifice, support, nurturing, and relying on each other, not about what happens in the back seat of your dad's car. I think we can assume from the evidence in Jessica's post that she will take full advantage of this opportunity in any romances that develop. Well, so much for my first post. I had no idea what I was getting myself into when I signed up for this list, but I'm *ever* so glad that I did. Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From jayenks at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 19:36:16 2002 From: jayenks at yahoo.com (Jackie Bowin) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: obstruction of justice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021002193616.86869.qmail@web40305.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44813 "Brain attic"- > > Also, since they seem to be able to > pinpoint your exact > > location and what kind of spell you did, shouldn't > they have known > > that he perfomed the Avada Kedavra Curse? bboy_mn: > There seems to be a school of thought that the > Ministry is keeping an > espicially close eye on Harry's house. Any sign of > magic on Privet > Drive could be a sign that Voldemort had tracked > Harry down, and they > would need to respond right away. I think I'm much more inclined to believe that the Ministry yelled at Harry for blowing up Aunt Petunia not because they were keeping a close eye on Harry, or His house, or have watchers out there at all times, but because Dobby tipped them off ahead of time. He really wanted to keep Harry away from Hogwarts, and knew that Harry may not like it. So, as a forward plan, he warned the MoM, possibly anonymously, that Harry was up to mischief. This would explain why they never sense the sweater, or the hair-regrowing, or anything else that goes on in the Dursley house before COS. And in POA, they find out about Aunt Petunia only because they are monitoring Harry for information about Sirius. Jaye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From psychomaverick at hotmail.com Wed Oct 2 19:32:09 2002 From: psychomaverick at hotmail.com (psychodudeneo) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 19:32:09 -0000 Subject: Book 5 Deaths and Diary!Riddle (WAS: Random Collection of Thoughts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44814 "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > > I agree with you that Diary!Riddle never communicated with Voldemort > about what happened in the Chamber since Harry killed Diary!Riddle > with the basilisk fang in the Chamber before the diary could be > returned to Voldemort. > > ~Phyllis True, but that doesn't mean that it hasn't gotten back to Voldie by way of Lucius or someone else who knew about the incident. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > The only thing I have read/heard about the death in book 5 is that it > will be a special fan of Harry's. The word "special" has given rise > to much speculation-even on my part ( and I am not big on > speculation). Special? in what way? Your guess is as good as mine. > > bugaloo37 Silly bugaloo. If that is true, isn't it obvious as to who it might be? Collin or Dobby. Both are supporting characters that haven't really been developed to the extend of being part of the main cast. They've hung in the background. Ala Cedric. Both are Harry's biggest fans. So I'm going to take a stab and say it's one of them. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: My personal theory is that one > of the secondary characters will become more prominent in the next > book, and who ever that is, is as good as dead. Standard practice, > create sympathy for a disposable character and then sacrifice him/her. Ar, not only does it get the desired effect on the characters, but the main cast remains to move the plot along. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: > Although, I admit that JKR can be pretty tricky at times. She may > build up one character up as a distraction, only to take another. > > This is how I see the story going, although the characters are > somewhat interchangeable. Harry gradually develops a relationship with > Cho Chang. They talk over their bad feelings about Cedric, and become > very close, as Harry develops love and endearment for Chang, and so, > we too grow to love her. Well, if that happens, she as good as dead. > Harry's heart is broken; our hearts are broken. Poor Harry, everything > he loves dies. How hopeless and sad is that? > I really don't see a relationship between Harry and Cho working out. For one thing, she's already lost one boyfriend due to an accident. Why would she want to start going out with someone who's the number one enemy to the most murderous wizard in history? I do, however, suspect that Cho's character will be developed some in Book 5. I'm not sure if she'll die. If what bugaloo said is true, it's obviously Collin or Dobby that will bite the big one. From sydpad at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 18:19:43 2002 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 18:19:43 -0000 Subject: Love Potions (WAS Thoughts on SHIPS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44815 I'd like to second all the praise of Jessica's beautiful post. Shipping debates indeed focus too often on the horse-race aspect of romance, which (though always fun) isn't really what we talk about when we talk about love, is it? The kind of love that changes what kind of person you are-- that takes you out of your little boxed world and connects you to other people, that's both humbling and enobling... I can't see JKR leaving that out. I can't remotely improve on Jessica's piece, I'll just give it another plug. Stupid love, though -- the kind of self-absorbed, fantasizing, hormonal thing one goes through at age 15 -- I think is going to gone into in OoP. There's a bit of that with the Cho Chang crush, of course, but if I have one Book V prediction it would be: love potion hi-jinks. There's no way JKR would plug a magic artifact TWICE in GoF without intending it to come back in a big way. THAT kind of passion is very familiar and it does feel very much as though one is the helpless victim of a chemical reaction! My prediction of the victim: Draco, or possibly Hermionie. Or both? --Sydney PS: incidentally, as a victim of Crush-Activated Idiocity Syndrome, may I just say I NEED Ginny Weasley to come into her own? That the objects of my affections imagine me to be a gibbering idiot still keeps me up at night in a cold sweat. And that my gibbering-idiot persona should be the one I was defined by... my worst nightmare! From penumbra10 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 19:38:24 2002 From: penumbra10 at yahoo.com (Judy M. Ellis) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 19:38:24 -0000 Subject: The Ginny Weasley Quotient In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44816 Judy originally wrote:> > > > What bothers me about Ginny is her nearly total self- > absorption. Then consider her rescue: We know that > Harry was very dirty and covered in blood as well because JKR > says so... but she never once asks if he is hurt or manages a "stammering thank you," even after she is safe with her parents and absolved. Don't you find that the least bit odd? Pippin answered: > Not really. How do you thank someone for something like that? > Especially at age eleven. I don't recall that Hermione ever > thanked the boys for saving her from the Troll, or that Harry ever > thanked Snape or Hermione for saving him from Quirrell's curse > or Hagrid for rescuing him from the Dursleys or Dumbledore for > saving him from Voldemort in the end. Judy responds: > Hermione thanked them by covering for them with McGonagall, pretending she'd done something wrong to keep them out of trouble. Since she'd never done anything like that in her life, it was a tremendous gesture of gratitude. Harry's gratitude to Hermione in the potions chamber was also, knowing how difficult it is for a young adolescent to say anything "mushy" to a girl. He said, in essence, that she was a better wizard than him and she returned the compliment. That was her way of thanking him for caring about their world and caring whether Voldemort returned or not. As for Dumbledore, he'd already established himself as Harry's "protector." kids generally do not thank parents or other adults they feel are guardians for their protection. My problem was that since Ginny was so infatuated with Harry, you'd think she'd at least wonder if he'd gotten scratched or a bit bumped around by the basilisk seeing as how he was covered in blood and had obviously been engaged in some kind of confrontation with the gigantic snake. That would have been a form of 11-year-old gratitude and one that Harry would have understood. Judy had previously said: > If she is the chatterbox Ron says she is, and brave enough to be sorted into Gryffindor, why not stammer, stumble and mumble her way through asking Harry to take her to the Yule Ball as Harry did Cho and Ron did Fleur? Even a Hufflepuff girl managed it. Pippin responded: > Because she was a third year. She couldn't invite *anyone* to the > ball. It'd be pretty pushy to ask Harry or anyone else to invite her to a function she wouldn't otherwise be entitled to attend. Judy responds: JKR makes a point of mentioning that the Hufflepuff girl who asked Harry was also a THIRD YEAR Ch, 22 Pg 389 (American edition) and that she hadn't spoken a word to him in her life. (Obviously admiring him from afar, as had Ginny.) As least Harry and Ginny had exchanged pleasantries and had a shared adventure. All he could have said was "no." That would have been a difficult thing for her to do and a way to hint at Ginny's latent courage and perhaps foreshadow bigger things to come. I truly believe there was a reason JKR did not allow us to see Ginny's sorting and I think there is a big reason all the other Weasleys appear as developed three-dimensional characters and Ginny is presented to us as a 'sketched-in stereotype with some of her lines missing.' --Judy From htfulcher at comcast.net Wed Oct 2 19:46:38 2002 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 19:46:38 -0000 Subject: obstruction of justice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44817 Steve writes: > There seems to be a school of thought that the Ministry is keeping an espicially close eye on Harry's house. Any sign of magic on Privet Drive could be a sign that Voldemort had tracked Harry down, and they would need to respond right away. > > Since Fred and George are performing magic all the time, I seriously doubt that everyone gets that same level of surveillance. > > [snip] ... it doesn't seem reasonable that the Ministry monitors all magic everywhere all the time. I think Harry is a special case and that's why they detect things so quickly. > > Although, I can't help being curious about how they are monitoring him. Maybe we will eventually find out. MarEphraim writes: This touches on a topic from when I first encountered this group and which is discussed in the Mysteries and Inconsistencies FAQ. At the time I first wrote to this list I supposed that the Restictions of Underage Wizardry might have been either a) a recent law or b) a law that only applied once study at Hogwarts had begun. (It was also suggested by someone at the time that it was just a flint in PS/SS that Hermione et al. mentioned having tried out some spells, etc..) On the other hand, I could easily see how the Ministry could monitor, not "all magic everywhere all the time," but magic performed by students away from school. Unbeknownst to the students they could be under a charm that somehow notifies the Ministry thereby allowing for the swift response to infractions. It also seems equally probable (and as other threads have generally commented) that Dumbledore, and quite possibly the Ministry, may have placed special charms that give notification of magic performed in and around Privet Drive. This said, it would seem likely that in general the law applies to students enrolled in Hogwarts. Even Harry has (unknowlingly) performed magic before attending Hogwarts. Yet these acts, like those of Ron, Hermione and the other children refered to (i.e., QWC in GoF) do not have the honed polish of even first year students on summer holiday. We could speculate also whether there is a distinction between magic performed in and around a wizard family/home versus that of a muggle. MarEprhaim From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Oct 2 20:10:08 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:10:08 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: End of the Harry Potter Series/SHIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10488423809.20021002131008@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44818 Wednesday, October 2, 2002, 1:51:23 AM, abigailnus wrote: a> Reading through the "it was all a dream" posts made me think of a> something else. I really don't think that making the entire series a dream a> would be satisfying for the readers, but wouldn't it make an interesting a> weapon? What if Voldemort tries to convince Harry that his years in a> Hogwarts have been a dream in order to confuse him or pump him for a> information? I realise that this is hardly original - off the top of my head I a> can think of two TV shows (Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Deep Space a> Nine) and one book (Neverwhere by Neil Gaiman) where this trick has a> been used, and I'm sure there are many more. Also the famous "Back to Reality" episode of _Red Dwarf_, in which the "Despair Squid" causes the crew to hallucinate and believe that their journey through deep space was just a very elaborate, "Total Emersion" computer role-playing game. My feeling is that if it is all a dream, then it completely negates all the moral messages in the series, including, ironically, "It does not do to dwell on dreams, Harry"!! Katey wrote: a> Well, Rowling could possibly end it with 11 year old Harry a> waking from a bizarre but awesome dream, his Aunt Petunia a> telling him to get up and get the mail, and him discovering a a> letter addressed to Mr. H. Potter, etc. Then we would know a> that the events actually *do* happen. I seriously doubt this a> will happen... So do I, if only because this would oblige her to write *another* seven books!! -- Dave From crussell at arkansas.net Wed Oct 2 20:55:54 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 20:55:54 -0000 Subject: The Ginny Weasley Quotient In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44819 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Judy M. Ellis" wrote: > I truly believe there was a reason JKR did not allow us to >see Ginny's sorting and I think there is a big reason all the other >Weasleys appear as developed three-dimensional characters and Ginny >is presented to us as a 'sketched-in stereotype with some of her >lines missing.' As I mentioned in a previous post, JKR has stated that we will see more of Ginny in Book 5. Of course, in what capacity-we can only guess. When you look at the women in Harry's life-only one has gotten a lot of attention- Hermione. Ginny, Mrs. Weasley, even Harry's mother, Lily has received little or no character development ( we know nothing about Lily's school years). IMO, I believe Ginny's time is coming. Her adventure in book 2 may have been only the begining. She is, after all, a Weasley, and IMO, there is some powerful magic brewing in that family. Sometimes JKR's hints have to be taken with a grain of salt-but I think the one concerning Ginny's future character development can be taken seriously. bugaloo37 From htfulcher at comcast.net Wed Oct 2 20:16:52 2002 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 20:16:52 -0000 Subject: obstruction of justice In-Reply-To: <20021002193616.86869.qmail@web40305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44820 Jay writes: > I think I'm much more inclined to believe that the Ministry yelled at Harry for blowing up Aunt Petunia not because they were keeping a close eye on Harry, or His house, or have watchers out there at all times, but because Dobby tipped them off ahead of time. He really wanted to keep Harry away from Hogwarts, and knew that Harry may not like it. So, as a forward plan, he warned the MoM, possibly anonymously, that Harry was up to mischief. < MarEphraim replies: That's a good possibility as well. I hadn't thought about Dobby's possible involvement in the latter incident. And the Serius connection re the former incident is logical as well. Shery writes: > The Weasleys' summer magical exploits are not a violation of the Underage Wizardry law because they take place in the Burrow, which is not in the Muggle world (except for Ron's flying car in CoS, which was in violation of the Muggle artifacts law as well as the Underage Wizardry law, and was quickly detected by the MoM). Magic performed by underage wizards in the WW is perfectly legal.< ME replies: I'll have to go back over that one. I thought the reason Ron and Harry got in trouble was a) the Muggle Artefacts Law and, more importantly, b) the car was spotted by numerous muggles as it made its way to Hogwarts. Personally, I still hold out that the Underage Magic law affects students on holiday and is inforced by charm. MarEphraim From bobbins29 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 2 22:54:18 2002 From: bobbins29 at hotmail.com (fran) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 22:54:18 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat/ Voldemort's compitence/ Request for opinions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44821 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "arcum42" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "cockneyrebe1" wrote: > > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > > > Richelle writes: > > > > > > > > > Now, I'll really go out on a limb. JKR has said that, as it > > > currently stands, the last word of book 7 is "scar". Ever since > > > I read that, I have written that sentence for myself to read > > > something like: (Dumbledore speaking)"Harry, wandless, killed > > > Voldemort with the very same curse that gave him his scar." > > > > > > Thoughts? > > > > > > fun 'n games. > > > > > >Me: I think something like, *As he looked in the mirror a frown fell > > across his face. "Where's my scar?"* would be really cute. > > Arcum: On a similar vein, I've also tended to think the last sentence would be about the absence of Harry's scar. Though it'd be a great psych-out if the scar talked about in the last sentence wasn't Harry's at all! > > "Feeling the slash running across her face, Hermione winced. 'I bet that'll leave a scar.'" > Me: Yes, that would be quite amusing! How about, "What next? He did not know, but had all the time in the world to decide as he left for Madagascar". Sorry - someone needed to say it. However the "... scar" ending does trouble me a bit. The ending of book 7 is supposed to be an epilogue, and furthermore I fail to see how "... scar" can be a well written sentence, worthy of ending the seven book series. Rowling said herself she'd most likely re-write it. If she doesn't, maybe the trio will find their way round the underground with the help of Dumbledore's scar? (PS ch 1) - Fran From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 2 23:29:17 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 23:29:17 -0000 Subject: Snape the Half-blood? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44822 Pip!Squeak wrote: >>> Is Snape's background like Voldemort's and Harry's? A half-blood boy, brought up by the muggle side of his family? Whose 'muggle' relatives or foster parents disliked his magical blood; and who went the DE route as a way of trying to reject that side of himself?<<< My one question: If Snape had been raised by muggles like Voldemort and Harry, then how did he, as a 11 year old first year, know more curses coming into Hogwarts than half of the 7th years? (GoF, Padfoot Returns chapter) He could only been taught them by his family or family friends. Maybe that is why he moved on to potions. He found the subject more challenging. Since he found wandwork so easy and had "mastered" dark arts and dueling, he moved on to the harder, more difficult forms of magic where the wizard needs muggle strengths along with magic knowledge. Exacting math, reliable logic, gentle slight of hand are all needed to create those delicate potions. If in fact Snape had been raised in a magic family, it seems that his upbringing would be mostly heavy on the magical instead of the muggle. Granted, this small discussion does not prove he isn't a half-blood but I think we can rule out him being of muggle decent or raised by muggles only. Melody Who is greatly amused that the category 4 hurricane coming straight for her home town is named Lily. So much terror Lily will bring. From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Wed Oct 2 23:36:11 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 00:36:11 +0100 Subject: End of Harry Potter Series In-Reply-To: <20021001150826.92377.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20021001033447.0098e8b0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021002113941.009921e0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44823 At 08:08 01/10/02 -0700, Barb P replied to my earlier post: >Firstly, and for me most importantly, boyhood fantasies revolve around >being a great hero. Harry in the books (at least to date) is very largely >an accidental hero, and he does not relish being thought of as anything >but ordinary. He has no special abilities; in fact, he is average or >below-average in just about every respect, and we are constantly reminded >of this fact (he's small, studying doesn't come easily to him, etc) and in >fact the only thing at which he has proven to be unnaturally adept is at >summoning a Patronus, i.e. his father. Psychologically speaking, the >Potterverse is quite simply much to complex to be the fantasy of a teenage boy. >Barb: > There's really no way to prove this, one way or the other. Harry was a > fantasy created by JKR, and you could also argue that it is > extraordinarily unlikely for a woman on welfare, writing in cafes while > she cares for her infant daughter, to create such a fantasy > world. Stranger things have happened. In a way, that's exactly my point. There are plenty of stories (of all kinds, some good, some bad), written by poor or destitute people. Some indicate more imagination than others, some show more literary skill than others. The thing is that the Potterverse is the fabrication of an educated adult mind, not that of a downtrodden teenage boy's. >As for Harry being the "accidental" hero, that might in fact be exactly >the sort of hero a boy would imagine himself being. Someone with nothing >extraordinary about him who triumphs anyway. Other than the standard >finding-out-you-are-really-the-heir-to-the-throne fantasy, isn't that very >common? Quite. But such heroes are always more ... errr... heroic. To take a couple of currently popular examples from children's books which have found some crossover interest in adult markets: Philip Pullman's Will or Eoian Colfer's Artemis Fowl are exactly the kind of heroes a modern teenage boy might invent for his fantasy alter-ego: willful, deliberately defiant of all authority, mentally and physically strong (though Fowl considers all physical activity, especially violence, beneath him; however, he has Butler to do these things for him). Also, they both consider "street smarts" far more important than any formal education. Both boys' stories start with a quest for their lost fathers; they both dearly love their mothers who suffer from the father's absence, and ensure that their mothers are safe before leaving on their respective quests. When not thinking about their fathers, they worry about their mothers. Harry, on the other hand, has really only one characteristic in common with the other two: a quick mind and a resulting sarcastic turn of phrase. He is very much aware of being physically small and weak, and is aware of the limitations of his knowledge of the world and how it works. Apart from considering Hogwarts to be his home, he very much considers it important to be diligent at his studies (even if he doesn't shine at most subjects, and considers some of them unimportant). Whilst his parents are important elements of his voyage of self-discovery (not to mention the plot!) :-) and he thinks about them a lot, he appears to be singularly uncurious about how they got to be in the situation in which he lost them. For me, this is the great weakness of JKR's characterisation, although I can understand her reasons for plotting the books this way. Harry is usually respectful of authority; he never determines to defy it, but he gets into trouble for those occasions when his actions make this appear to be the case. He isn't on any kind of quest; on the contrary, all he wants is a quiet life to continue his studies and play Quidditch in peace. It is exterior events and the non-action of authority figures which force him to take action. Interestingly, of the three heroes, Harry is the only team player. Will is very much a loner, and resents Lyra's involvement in his quest at their first meeting, including most other . Artemis Fowl makes good use of Butler, his servant, but this is not a "team". On the other hand, apart from Harry's favourite activity being a team sport (in which, nevertheless, his role is to a large extent separate from the rest of the team), his friends are very important both to him personally and the outcome of his adventures. The above comparison is not meant to imply that I consider Pullman's or Colfer's creations better or worse literary figures, or even more or less "realistic" ones. Nor am I saying that these men understand teenage boys better. All I'm saying is that they are more representative of the type of hero a teenage boy would create in a wish-fulfillment dream, which is where this discussion started. (No, I'm not saying that Will's or Artemis's adventures are their dreams, either!) :-) >GulPlum: >Furthermore, not only do his adventures not start with him attempting to >save his friends, but he actively (though not deliberately) puts them in >danger; only *then* does he attempt to save them. And he is unable to save >them without help, be it from caring adults or those friends. > >Barb: >That would seem to be part of the fantasy: having supportive adults and >good friends around him. One would assume that in "real life" he does >not. As for the friends being in danger, if he doesn't imagine that to >have happened he can't very well rescue them, can he? Of course, but frequently he is the cause of his friends being in danger in the first place. >Barb: > It's hardly a stretch to imagine that someone living under the stairs > would want books to read to occupy his time, which could include volumes > about mythology and folklore, and in many British schools, Latin is still > taught, although other modern languages are evidently more common these days. Errr... please name a single comprehensive school in Britain which teaches Latin, In fact, I'd be curious to hear of one which has *ever* taught it... It's contrary to the whole spirit of what comprehensive schooling has been about since WWII. Grammar schools were already losing Latin by the sixties, Greek having gone by the wayside even earlier. Even Public Schools (UK meaning) have phased out Classics in favour of modern languages and/or IT (I know for a fact that Westminster and Harrow offer it only as an elective, taken up by VERY few pupils). Smeltings certainly doesn't strike me as the type of place which would still teach Latin (despite its Latin motto). >As for whether a well-off child would need to retreat into fantasy, I >think the answer is no. And if this is what the whole series comes down >to, it's even entirely possible that, compared to Harry's "reality," the >Dursleys are downright cuddly. In fact, the very undignified situations >and comeuppances that the Dursleys regularly experience sound exactly like >the sorts of things a boy would fantasize about if he were being oppressed >even a tenth of the amount Harry is. I agree entirely. Which returns to my issue about *why* the "real" Harry is being oppressed in order to escape to this land of fantasy. A few people have provided other examples of "dream" narratives so I won't repeat them, but in all the cases with which I'm acquainted, an explanation for why the person was in the dreamlike state and escaping to the particular "fantasy" is part of the "waking up" process. >GulPlum wrote: > All in all, then, the series' outcome as nothing but a long dream > would be a major cop-out for me, and particularly hollow. The "moral" of > the story would also lose a considerable amount of its impact: "it's all > a dream, it >doesn't matter"! > >Barb: > I don't need for the wizarding world to be "real" (to Harry). I don't > think any story with a moral becomes of no worth if we find out it didn't > happen. It DIDN'T happen, remember? It was created by JKR. Of course, but our relationship as readers to the characters becomes weakened by such revelations - we are willing to suspend our disbelief once, but to have it revealed to us that the energy we put into that suspension was ultimately pointless when we have it underlined to us *within* that fiction that all we read was nothing but illusion with no preparation whatsoever leaves us not only underwhelmed, but often frequently angry at the author for having conned us. Much as I dislike the idea of the Potter books ending on "it was all a dream", I was quite intrigued by the notion someone put forward earlier today (sorry, I don't remember who it was) that the books could end with Harry waking up as a teenager, having been in a coma since a car crash when he was a baby. This would satisfy my requirements with a little explanation about how come he knows so much about the world, never (presumably) having learned how to read or write. I could posit a world in which his loving parents (who did NOT die in the crash) come to read to him every day and have told him stories over the years from Greek mythology, etc. This would have the added advantage of getting around the nitpick fandom has raised of just where kids in the magical community obtain their basic schooling. :-) Finally, just a quick comment in reply to the person who asked why this topic has generated so much response this time, whereas it didn't a few weeks ago. It's quite straightforward - Darkthirty's original post was extremely long and full of interminable sentences which a lot of people probably never bothered to read. :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, UK From msbonsai at mninter.net Wed Oct 2 23:36:56 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 23:36:56 -0000 Subject: obstruction of justice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44824 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "brainattic" wrote: >Why wasn't he caught by the Ministry for violating the Decree for >the Restriction of Underage Wizardry? Also, since they seem to be >able to pinpoint your exact > location and what kind of spell you >did, shouldn't they have known > that he perfomed the Avada Kedavra >Curse? I guess I should say you have me extremely confused here. My understanding was it was the basilisk which had killed Voldemort's father and grandparents. Hense there was no mark on their bodies etc. GOB p4. "the Riddles all appeared to be in perfect health -- apart from the fact that they were all dead." I guess my point here is if it was indeed the basilisk, then where do you have the idea that Voldemort performed the Avada Kedavra on his parents? If it were indeed the basilisk, then perhaps that does not count as doing magic. And since his father was mortal, I certainly believe that his house would have been observed if magic were performed there. However, I would like to ask at what age they stop looking to see if you are performing magic outside of the school? Seeing as it was before his seventh year, is it possible that they were no longer looking to see if he was performing magic? Perhaps after they earn their owls they are able to perform magic outside of the school? MrsBonsai From olivia at serpensortia.com Thu Oct 3 00:26:56 2002 From: olivia at serpensortia.com (Olivia) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 20:26:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape the Half-blood? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44825 Melody said: "If Snape had been raised by muggles like Voldemort and Harry, then how did he, as a 11 year old first year, know more curses coming into Hogwarts than half of the 7th years? (GoF, Padfoot Returns chapter) He could only been taught them by his family or family friends." Well, there is always the possibility that he knew how to read and spent his childhood with his face in a book like Hermione has. :) Although, there's no canon proof that Snape is literate. I do agree with you that it sounds as though Snape was raised by at least one wizard or witch. Not only, like you said, does Sirius mention that Snape came armed with plenty o' curses, but Lucius Malfoy seems to like and/or respect him from what Draco said about the possibility of Snape being appointed Headmaster (CoS) and Lucius Malfoy doesn't seem like he'd be all too accepting of Snape if he were raised by Muggles. Assuming, Malfoy knew, but he's the kind of guy who knows everything. Especially since the Weasleys are purebloods and Malfoy doesn't even like them. Inarticulately yours, Olivia :) From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Thu Oct 3 00:59:00 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 01:59:00 +0100 Subject: (non-TBAY) PINE-ing for Superfluous Characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021003011429.00973f00@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44826 (sorry, I can't do TBAY - at least, I've never tried, and I'm not in the mood to start right now! Heck, most of the time, I don't even read TBAY posts, but the subject matter of this one caught my fancy) :-) At 12:19 02/10/02 +0000, Cindy C. wrote: >The challenge would be to find the >*biggest* character who could possibly be dumped on the SCOW. Oh, >anyone could dump students who don't even have whole *names* on the >SCOW. Like Stebbins or Summers ? that's easy. Heck, you could >practically dump all of Ravensclaw on the SCOW and hardly anyone >would miss it. >*Percy Weasley* is going to take a little trip. A trip *straight* to the >landfill!" I'd disagree with you on one aspect of Percy's superfluousness (does that word exist?), namely his lack of a role in GoF. He is the only reason people accept that Crouch Snr. is compus mentis for most of the book, albeit ill. Believing that Crouch is ill but functioning is important to the plot, both for the characters in the book and for us readers to st us up for the red herring to beat all other red herrings into a fisherman's net (are there any herrings, red or otherwise, swimming around in Theory Bay?). :-) The fact that Percy has been previously built up as trustworthy and conscientious, not to mention clever, lulls us (and the characters) into a false sense of security, that he knows what he's talking about. That he is so spectacularly wrong also adds another layer to the list of "morals" in the tale: not all clever people are necessarily right all the time! A secondary one is that even the coolest families have nerdy black sheep. :-) Having said that, I'd like to propose my own candidate for the landfill: Professor Minerva McGonagall. She seems to have a lot of lines in the books, but are they important? Let's review her role to date: her biggest scene comes in PS/SS, when she has her conversation with Dumbledore at the very beginning, which is purely for the readers' benefit. This conversation could just as easily have been with Hagrid. Her other big scene is "discovering" Harry as a natural Seeker. I think it would have made more sense for Wood as Quidditch Captain (perhaps together with the other 3 captains) to have been standing on the sidelines during the first years' flying lesson to scout for possible talent, and for *him* to invite Harry to join the team. During CoS, even as temporary headmaster she achieves absolutely nothing. The school's run as if Dumbledore was still there, and all she can do is continue as if nothing had happened. In PoA, her main scene is to be in the pub while Hagrid and Flitwick tell their recollections of the night the Potters were killed. Her presence is superfluous. A comment re. Percy was "how superfluous can you be if you're the third wheel in a conversation?" What about being the *fourth* wheel? :-) In GoF, I can find absolutely nothing which required McGonagall as such to be there. Her role in every scene she's in in GoF, as all other remaining scenes in which she appears in the books to date, could have been taken by any other teacher or Dumbledore (such as giving Hermione the Time-Turner; I think it would have played better dramatically if Dumbledore was the only person who knew she had it). She's clearly not a member of the "old crowd" (at least it's clear to me, anyone want to disagree?) and apart from being the only example for female readers until GoF that the Wizarding World *does* give women positions of responsibility, she has absolutely no role to play. Even so, her big moments as an authority figure fall seriously flat. In CoS, her approach as Headmistress seems to be one of constant hand-wringing and despair; given the job to guard a bound and prostate Crouch Jnr, she fails and all she can do is come running to Dumbledore. So I say, "off to the SCOW with her! Not only is she a superfluous character, but she's an ineffectual leader as well!" -- GulPlum AKA Richard, off for a dunk in the Bay From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 3 01:12:54 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 01:12:54 -0000 Subject: Snape the Half-blood? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44827 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Olivia" wrote: > Well, there is always the possibility that he knew how to read and spent his > childhood with his face in a book like Hermione has. :) Although, there's no > canon proof that Snape is literate. Huh? I'm feeling slow witted tonight -- am I missing a joke here? Snape reads the writing on the Marauder's Map in PoA, reads one of Rita Skeeter's articles aloud in class in GoF, writes on the blackboard during class, etc. As for Snape spending his childhood with his face in a book, I suspect he did, but they would have to be magic books in order for him to pick up all those Dark Curses. This suggests to me that he wasn't raised by Muggles. Hermione didn't start reading up on magic until after she got her Hogwarts letter, and while she did seem to know more spells than most first-years by the time she arrived, I don't think she could've competed with the seventh-years. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From olivia at serpensortia.com Thu Oct 3 01:13:32 2002 From: olivia at serpensortia.com (Olivia) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 21:13:32 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape the Half-blood? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44828 Marina said: "Huh? I'm feeling slow witted tonight -- am I missing a joke here? Snape reads the writing on the Marauder's Map in PoA, reads one of Rita Skeeter's articles aloud in class in GoF, writes on the blackboard during class, etc." No, you're not missing anything. :) I'm quite sure Snape can read. I was just pointing out that in the post I replied to (by Melody) she didn't mention that Snape very well could have picked up the curses he knew simply by reading. "As for Snape spending his childhood with his face in a book, I suspect he did, but they would have to be magic books in order for him to pick up all those Dark Curses. This suggests to me that he wasn't raised by Muggles. Hermione didn't start reading up on magic until after she got her Hogwarts letter, and while she did seem to know more spells than most first-years by the time she arrived, I don't think she could've competed with the seventh-years." Exactly what I was trying to say. Of course, Sirius could have been exagerrating as well. Like I said, I wasn't very articulate. Should have slept on it first. :) Sorry for the confusion, Marina. You ended up saying it much better than I did. Olivia From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Oct 3 01:48:00 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 01:48:00 -0000 Subject: Snape the Half-blood? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44829 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bluesqueak" wrote: > > Is Snape a half-blood? Not half-vampire, or half-dementor, or half any other 'interestin' creature' but plain old half-muggle. > Time to trot out one of my theories for the benefit of those who haven't heard it before. Snape could be the child of Squibs. I can imagine that many old wizarding families have Squib servants like Filch. There could even be families of such servants attached to some of the old wizarding manors, no more magically able than Muggles really, but part of the wizarding world, and still clinging to pride in their wizard descent. Perhaps young Snape, fascinated by magic, raided his wizarding manor's library secretly. The family wouldn't think they had to protect their magical knowledge from a Squib. Then Snape's Hogwarts letter came. Determined to establish his pureblood heritage, Snape became a Slytherin and even joined Voldemort, but eventually became disillusioned. This might also explain why Snape is on such close terms with Filch. Pippin From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 3 01:48:47 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 01:48:47 -0000 Subject: Snape the Half-blood? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44830 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Olivia" wrote: > Marina said: > "Huh? I'm feeling slow witted tonight -- am I missing a joke here? > Snape reads the writing on the Marauder's Map in PoA, reads one of > Rita Skeeter's articles aloud in class in GoF, writes on the > blackboard during class, etc." > > No, you're not missing anything. :) I'm quite sure Snape can read. I was > just pointing out that in the post I replied to (by Melody) she didn't > mention that Snape very well could have picked up the curses he knew simply > by reading. Just checking. :-) With all the wacky theories floating around the list these days, I'm sure an Illiterate!Snape theory is only a matter of time... > > "As for Snape spending his childhood with his face in a book, I > suspect he did, but they would have to be magic books in order for > him to pick up all those Dark Curses. This suggests to me that he > wasn't raised by Muggles. Hermione didn't start reading up on magic > until after she got her Hogwarts letter, and while she did seem to > know more spells than most first-years by the time she arrived, I > don't think she could've competed with the seventh-years." > > Exactly what I was trying to say. Of course, Sirius could have been > exagerrating as well. While it wouldn't be out of character for Sirius to exaggerate about Snape, I think in this case he was speaking the truth, just because I can think of no in-story reason for JKR to have made it false. As a true statement, it provides an interesting insight into Snape's character. As a random exaggeration tossed out by Sirius, it would have to end up on the GARBAGESCOW. Of course, I suppose that in theory it would be possible for a half- blood Snape to have been raised by his Muggle relatives, but with regular custody visits to the Wizard side of the family, and subsequent opportunities to borrow books. I'm not sure if that really qualifies as "being raised by Muggles," though... Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Oct 3 01:53:09 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 01:53:09 -0000 Subject: Who Cramps the Stamps? (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44831 Who Cramps the Stamps? (GoF, Chap. 3) To the tune of Barry Man's 1961 hit Who Put the Bomp? Hear the original at: http://www.foxlink.net/~bobnbren/1960s.html#W Dedicated to cindysphynx THE SCENE: 4 Privet Drive. VERNON confronts HARRY over an oddly- addrressed epistle from the Weasleys. VERNON I think that some wise guy Has sent this note To make the postman Look askance at me VERNON and (DUDLEY) Who is the champ crampin' every every stamp? Who makes me fret with this letter, letter, let let? Who sends my way this commu- communiqu? ? Who is the schmoe with the memo-memo-memo? Who sends missives to Privet where I live In such a way that I cannot forgive? (Yeah!) HARRY When my uncle says, "So, so, and so, you little so-and-so-so" I'm tempted to play quite the aleck-smart But when Molly was writing, "Hey, Vern and Pet, it's vis-?-vis a visit" I can not wait until I depart So, HARRY and (DUDLEY) (to VERNON) Molly's the champ crampin' every every stamp She made you fret with this letter, letter, let let She sent your way this commu- communiqu? She is the pro with the memo-memo-memo She sends missives to Privet where we live But has no wish to become offensive (Yeah!) VERNOIN Each time that you come home Bum summer sum sum summer what a bummer I can't wait until the fall arrives HARRY and (DUDLEY) But Godpa wants me happy Bark barky bark bark barky barky woof woof So I should now leave Privet Drive And I'll take my ease with the Wease a-Wease-a-leys I'll whirl up toward the World-a World-a World Cup I'll watch 'em zoom on their broom-a broom-a brooms I'll Apparate at a rapid rapid rap rate I'll watch Vik Krum take on the Leprechauns While seated right beside my best bud Ron (Yeah!) HARRY (spoken, simultaneous with below) I'll inform `em today, in the normal normal way While I fret in a baggy baggy sweatshirt I'm gonna dig when I hear from Pig-a-Pig-Pig And tell Ron-a-Ron to set my table space on .. VERNON, PETUNIA & DUDLEY (simultaneous with above) Bomp bah bomp bah bomp, rama lama ding Dong, dip da Dip da dip, boogity boogity shoo Bomp bah bomp bah bomp, rama lama ding dong, dip Da dip da Dip, boogity boogity shoo .. - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From Malady579 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 3 02:18:21 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 02:18:21 -0000 Subject: Black and Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44832 With this questioning about Snape's blood, I wondered about something. In GoF chapter Padfoot Returns, Black said in the cave "Snape has always been interested in the Dark Arts." From this, I left the chapter wondering if Black and Snape had somehow grown-up knowing about each other. I know, those few words are not definitive proof, but it did leave me wondering... I wonder if Black and Snape are from wizard families that are not necessarily close friends but are aware of each other and are civil. The feud between Snape and Black does not seem to be one that was inherited but rather started between themselves. Maybe Snape and Black went to the same wizard pre-school and from the beginning they just crossed. I know, I know I have no canon proof, but from that conversation between The Three and Black, it seemed to me that Black knows more about Snape than just as Hogwarts school chums. I always saw them as equals in life. They seem, to me, to be from close to the same backgrounds, same education, same brilliance, same cuteness (if Snape would wash the hair), hey, same hair color... They both even have a fondness for hexes. Black's recommendation on the dragon in Task #1 was a hex after all, and he also wrote to Potter advising him learn a few hexes for Task #3. Seems Black knows how a good hex can help as I am sure Snape knows from his extensive research as a child. (*reading* all those books in his parents' library) ;) I just believe that Black and Snape are the from the same cookie cutter but are decorated with different icing. And they loath each other for it. Just the impression I had. Melody From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Thu Oct 3 02:22:11 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 03:22:11 +0100 Subject: Harry's patronus In-Reply-To: <01f001c269bd$5fa3c920$c69ecdd1@istu757> References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021003025001.00980270@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44833 At 21:42 01/10/02 -0500, Richelle Votaw wrote: >At the risk that Richard (GulPlum) may jump down my throat (kidding, >kidding!), patronus is Latin for: protector, patron, pleader, advocate. >Father is pater. I won't get into any connections there, don't want to risk >that again. :) If that's not an invitation to plough in, I don't know what is. :-) As it happens, *IF* I were to want to jump down your throat in this case, it would be to decry your timidity and not only invite you to make the connection, but pretty much ...err... force it down your throat (to continue the metaphor).:-) There is a direct and uncontested link from Pater to Patronus - "-us" (occasionally "-onus") is a common Latin suffix equivalent to English suffix "-like" (which also made it into English via French as "-ous"). Therefore Patronus originally meant "father-like", from which it took its extended meanings as you outlined above. The very first time I saw the word in PoA, I could smell, if not a rat (or indeed a stag!), something James-related coming up. Just one of the downsides of taking my rusty Latin very literally. :-) (incidentally, modern "patron" and "patronize" are directly connected to "pater" as well.) >Anyway, to rephrase my question slightly, the particular form his patronus >took was apparently unusual, according to Dumbledore, who at the time didn't >know James was an animagus (Malfoy & co as fake dementors at Quidditch >game). So therefore all patronuses must take a form unique to the person >they are defending. Which means it must've come from somewhere in Harry's >subconscious. Did he, as a 15 month old or younger, see his father as a >stag? Is this how he subconsciously associated protection with a stag? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection is that Harry's is the only Patronus we've ever witnessed (or at least had identified as such). Following on from the etymology above, I would surmise that the expected form of a Patronus would be one's father. As I recall, Harry's Patronus at the Quidditch match was "unfocussed", but even if it wasn't particularly clear, it would have been obviously not human. Hence Dumbledore's surprise. P.S. The nominative plural of Patronus is Patronus. :-) From editor at texas.net Thu Oct 3 02:24:58 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 21:24:58 -0500 Subject: Foolery (was Re: [HPforGrownups] obstruction of justice) References: Message-ID: <014801c26a84$12cc4740$177d63d1@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44834 BAM. The door bangs open. Amanda stands framed in it, accompanied by a sheepish-looking Rylly Elf holding a plastic party-squeaker. "I do *birthdays*" Rylly protests feebly as Amanda pulls her into the room. "Go on, go on," Amanda hisses, as she unrolls a parchment and clears her throat pretentiously. Listmembers, experienced with this sound now, merely glance at the doors, confirm they are sealed shut, sigh, and await their fate. Rylly casts an imploring look at Amanda, then abruptly gives in and seizes the role. "HEAR YE! HEAR YE! The words of Amanda, Old, Old, Old" (Rylly yelps as Amanda pokes her with her wand: "enough with the 'olds' already") "..Listmember and founding member of L.O.O.N.!" Rylly blows a mighty blast on the little plastic tooter, bows, and steps back. Amanda reads from the scroll. "Let all listmembers, O Ye who have bemoaned that we've discussed all there is to discuss six ways from Sunday and backwards and have ranged far into the realm of the truly bizarre in an attempt to fill the time before Book 5, be appropriately abashed and amazed and impressed and otherwise notice that brainattic has had a New Thought (at least in my knowledge of the list, which is pretty extensive, although admittedly not exhaustive). Let all be joyous that such can still happen, although not very often these days. Let said listmembers also take note that, unless one invents explanations such as a post-Riddle-time creation of the Restriction on Underage Wizardry, brainattic has also found a minor Flint (again, in my own opinion)." Amanda pauses for breath. "Therefore, I call the attention of the other L.O.O.N.s on the list (you know who you are), to keep an eye on this one. And to consider this for entry into the rolls of Flints (or at least minor mysteries). Thank you and goodnight." Amanda rolls up the parchment and presents it to brainattic. Brainattic has been reading this whole time, totally missed what was said, and takes it with a polite but bemused air. The bemusement is compounded when Rylly Elf tosses a handful of confetti at him as she and Amanda exit through the now-unsealed doors. ----- Original Message ----- From: "brainattic" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 4:27 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] obstruction of justice > According to the Lexicon, Riddle murdered his father's family during > the summer vacation before his seventh year. Why wasn't he caught by > the Ministry for violating the Decree for the Restriction of Underage > Wizardry? Also, since they seem to be able to pinpoint your exact > location and what kind of spell you did, shouldn't they have known > that he perfomed the Avada Kedavra Curse? > Of course, the whole thing having happened during WWII(early 1940's), > it's possible they were quite distracted at the time. > > "Brain attic" From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Oct 3 02:32:27 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 21:32:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs. Weasley (was Re: Defending Harry (was Somebody please save Ron!) References: Message-ID: <01c401c26a85$1de77d60$979fcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44835 Dona writes: > > So we'll take Harry off the hook but, what about Mrs. W? Now that's a little bit tougher. Mrs. Weasley often overlooks Ron. I get the general impression over the course of the books that Bill got attention because he has a pretty impressive job, Charlie had an interesting one, plus he was a great Quidditch player, so that gets him some attention. Percy was smart and did well by the family name. The twins are always into trouble, so that gets them attention. Ginny's the only girl, plus she had that awful year being taken over by Riddle and all. Then there's Ron. It seems like to Mrs. Weasley that he's "just Ron." He's not overly brilliant. He doesn't constantly play tricks on people (okay, there was the car incident). He doesn't play Quidditch (at least not yet). He's "just Ron." He's embarassed to be poor, he's often jealous of Harry, his best friend. He had to endure an extremely embarassing broken wand for an entire year before getting a new one--and his first REAL wand. Then there was the incident with the dress robes. Our dear sweet Molly Weasley actually told her own son, "Fine, go naked. And Harry, make sure you get a picture of him. Goodness knows I could do with a laugh." Ron's next comment was "Why is everything I own rubbish?" Quite sad, coming from a fourteen year old. Considering he's felt that way at least since he was eleven. Most families who are poor manage in such a way that the children usually don't even know it until they're grown and look back. But Ron is very much aware of his family's monetary state. Which leads me to believe either it is very unusual in the WW for a family to be so poor, or his family does a lousy job of keeping the home life upbeat. Does Ron really sit around worrying about his hand me downs as much as it seems he does? Well, now I'm getting off track. Back to Mrs. Weasley. She could do better. A lot better. She frequently shows more concern for Harry than Ron. What does this mean? I don't have a clue. Have we ever seen her hug Ron? There was the time in CoS when she hugged both Harry and Ron at the same time. In PoA when they came through the barrier she hugged Harry. In GoF she hugged Harry in the hospital wing, and again after he came through the barrier at King's Cross. Now I realize that she is taking Ron home with her and Harry's got to go with the Dursleys, but still. If I was seeing my mom for the first time in several months, I'd be a bit hurt if she hugged my best friend before me. Let alone if she hugged him and not me! Richelle From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Oct 3 02:52:17 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 21:52:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Random Collection of Thoughts/ Magic in the holidays/ Lily References: Message-ID: <01ea01c26a87$e4ea8860$979fcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44836 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: > > Random Collection of Thoughts. > > Death and Book 5- > > But is it clear that a major player, a significant > > character will die? I'm sure we've covered this, but I can't track > it down. > > Now bugaloo37: > The only thing I have read/heard about the death in book 5 is that it > will be a special fan of Harry's. The word "special" has given rise > to much speculation-even on my part ( and I am not big on > speculation). Special? in what way? Your guess is as good as mine. > > bugaloo37 Well, the basic speculation of "fan" is Colin and Dobby. However, when I was pondering this aloud for my own amusement a while back, debating who would be considered "fans" of Harry's, my mother overheard and inserted a comment (quite rare coming from her). She says Harry's greatest fan is Hagrid. Which I hadn't figured before, and this was actually what started my personal "Hagrid will die in Book 5" thoughts. RM writes: > Although, there is a question about how this is consistent or > inconsistent with the detection of a wizard born to muggles -- is there > some automatic way that they know when a wizard has been born, but no > automatic way that they track magical activity, what is the difference > between the modes of detection? I think JKR said someplace there's a quill that knows and writes the name of the wizard born. But as for tracking or detecting magical activity, I think there was a sort of magic camera on the Dursleys residence to keep an eye on Harry. Therefore it noted any magical activity there, regardless of who did it. Obviously the twins don't get owls every time they do something away from Hogwarts, or the owls would be too worn out all the time. :) > Melody > Who is greatly amused that the category 4 hurricane coming straight > for her home town is named Lily. So much terror Lily will bring. Hmm, funny you should mention Lili. I'm off work tomorrow thanks to her. Anyway, this hurricane with such a peaceful name as Lili has me thinking. Lily Potter has such a peaceful, tender name. But we know nothing of her abilities. I'd like to wager that behind that sweet name was a witch who packed quite a punch. Yet would sacrifice it all for the life of her child, as only a mother could. I really want to know more about her!!! Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 3 02:47:30 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 02:47:30 -0000 Subject: obstruction of justice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44837 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "brainattic" wrote: > According to the Lexicon, Riddle murdered his father's family during > the summer vacation before his seventh year. Why wasn't he caught by > the Ministry for violating the Decree for the Restriction of Underage > Wizardry? Also, since they seem to be able to pinpoint your exact > location and what kind of spell you did, shouldn't they have known > that he perfomed the Avada Kedavra Curse? I think this depends on how the Ministry watches for violations of the Decree -- does it keep tabs on specific people, specific places, all places connected with the Wizarding world, or some combination of all these? The Riddle House was a Muggle residence, Tom was not living there (he lived at the orphanage during the holidays), the Ministry may not have known anything at all about it. So maybe they weren't monitoring for magic use. Why monitor a Muggle house with no children in it? Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From editor at texas.net Thu Oct 3 03:00:02 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 22:00:02 -0500 Subject: TBAY: Amanda's visit References: Message-ID: <014e01c26a88$f8c43560$177d63d1@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44838 Amanda woke from her doze and looked up from her folding lounge chair in the shade of the palm trees. Cindy was back! About time. If she had to spend any more time lolling about on the beach with nothing new to read, she'd go nuts. She got up, and, shaking the sand out of her shoes as she walked, headed down to the beach. She walked out to the ship Cindy had headed for, arriving just in time to hear a splash as Dicentra dove from the side into the water and swam off. "Hey! Ahoy! Whatever! Throw down a ladder or something!" she yelled at the ship. Cindy's startled face appeared above her. "You're standing on the water!" Cindy gasped. "Of course I am," Amanda replied, shortly. "All L.O.O.N.s walk on water. I thought you knew that. Even here, though Theory Bay *can* get a bit unpredictable at times. Throw down a ladder already." Cindy's face disappeared and there were sounds of rummaging and thudding. A ladder rolled down the side of the ship, and Amanda climbed up. "I've come to see you about L.O.O.N.," she said to Cindy. Cindy got a couple of chairs and they settled down to talk. "As you know, L.O.O.N.s are sort of like pure scientists," Amanda said. "We specialize in canon detail. A few of us have branched out into interview detail, and some of us have researched details of the Celluloid Creation, but these other avenues are purely for comparison purposes to canon. I'm afraid TBAY is more along the lines of Carl Sagan or NOVA, popularizing and diluting for entertainment value. This is why you have not been named a L.O.O.N." Cindy's face fell and she visibly drooped. Amanda reached over and patted her hand. "No, no, dear, don't be depressed. I've come with *good* news. I was explaining why it had not happened *yet.* You see, we've been talking about you." "You see," Amanda continued, "your grasp of canon is inarguable, but that had not traditionally been the strength of your presence on the list. Canon detail, for you, was simply a support to your main skill, which is keeping track of the zillions of details, events, theories, and permutations of characters that populate this cove, and building on them to make more. I remember when it was just a couple of boats and me in my inner tube. Now look at it," and Amanda gestured out at the crowded bay, and the museum and other buildings clustered on the shore. "I don't know what half these things are, but you do." "More importantly, TBAY is a diversion in our time of need, and like Carl Sagan or NOVA, your fluffy little bay has inspired listmembers to seek out canon and research fine points in order to write their own TBAY episodes. We decided this contribution could no longer be ignored." Amanda paused importantly. "I'm here to announce the creation of a new subdiscipline in our ranks, and to invite you to be the first to bear the title. You shall be the first League Of Obsessive Nitpickers, Extracanonical Expert." Cindy gasped; her eyes shone. "Really? Is this official?" she asked faintly. Amanda said, "I'm still waiting on the formal memo from Anal, but you know how he is. He probably had some crisis come up in the Snape department--somebody quoting the Perseus Evans or vampire garbage as canon--but it'll be along any time now. I'd think you can go ahead and use the title." She smiled. "I'm certain there are several people who qualify for this subdiscipline, but you topped the list. Welcome to the ranks." Amanda got to her feet, climbed back down the ladder, and walked off toward shore. Cindy watched her go. L.O.O.N.E.E. It had a nice ring to it. She eyed the water speculatively.... ************** Amanda From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Thu Oct 3 03:09:31 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 04:09:31 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Translation questions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021003032800.00979220@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44839 At 02:39 01/10/02 +0000, brainiac613 wrote: >Has anyone else here read any non-English translations of the HP >books? What did you think? In order of experience (believe me, I don't mean to show off!) I've read a few chapters of GoF in Polish (in which I'm fluent), borrowed from my sister-in-law when she and my brother were visiting from Poland last October. (Slight aside: It was my introduction to the written Potterverse, just as the movie hype was building up. I'd refused to read the books before (for one thing, they'd been presented to me as "fantasy", which isn't a genre I'm keen on, and for another, all the HP fans I knew at that time were known to me primarily as Pratchett fans, and his work doesn't appeal to me *at all*), and it was only after seeing the movie with my nephew that I realised that the book had been completely misrepresented to me! I bought PS on my way home from the cinema, and the remaining three books the next day after I'd finished reading PS.) :-) Anyway, I browsed through my sister-in-law's Polish translation (I recall reading the World Cup chapter for sure; I'd heard of "Quidditch" from the movie hype and was curious what it was about) and was unimpressed. My primary concern was that although it was clear the time frame was "now", the dialogue was translated not only very stiffly and formally, but it was archaic, perhaps from 100 years ago. It was a joy to find when seeing the MTMNBN, and then reading the books, that the kids actually spoke idiomatic late-20th century English! I do recall that I prefer the translated name of the Weird Sisters (performers at the Yule Ball) , which roughly translates back to English as Whining Shrews (in Polish, it was Jeczace Jedze, which is of course alliterative). I've read bits of PS/SS in German (my German reading is *exceptionally* poor; I've never had any formal training in the language but for one reason or another I understand about 70% of the dialogue of German films, for instance) and didn't like it. The cadence somehow felt all wrong for me, perhaps because I don't have much of a "feel" for the language. I recently read the whole of GoF in French (in which I'm fluent), borrowed from the local library. I was amused by the changed names, and the Sphinx's riddle was well done (I don't recall the clues, but the result was still araign?e, i.e. spider). The translator didn't do too good a job with the Riddle name (which of course had to tie in to the Voldemort anagram from Book Two). I've thought about trying to find something better for my own amusement but have never had the time. BTW the ancestor/descendant and wand order problems had been sorted out. :-) Overall, though, it flowed quite pleasantly, although I skipped the whole Yule Ball chapter, so I never discovered how they translated "Weird Sisters". ;-) I also have smatterings of Italian and Spanish, although I've not yet found the books anywhere to see what I make of them. :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, UK, the Polyglot AKA Polyidiot From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Oct 3 03:18:07 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 22:18:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] End of HP/ (non-TBAY) PINE-ing for Superfluous Characters/ Harry's Patronus References: <4.2.0.58.20021003011429.00973f00@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <025101c26a8b$7f4f5860$979fcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44840 Fran writes: > However the "... scar" ending does trouble me a bit. The ending of > book 7 is supposed to be an epilogue, and furthermore I fail to see > how "... scar" can be a well written sentence, worthy of ending the > seven book series. Rowling said herself she'd most likely re-write > it. If she doesn't, maybe the trio will find their way round the > underground with the help of Dumbledore's scar? (PS ch 1) You know, here's something. Either McGonagall or Hagrid (provided he lives that long, which I doubt) could say "You know, Dumbledore (or Albus if you prefer) was right. It was a handy thing, that scar." Which would tie it back perfectly with the opening pages of SS/PS. GulPlum AKA Richard writes: > Having said that, I'd like to propose my own candidate for the landfill: > Professor Minerva McGonagall. She seems to have a lot of lines in the > books, but are they important? > > Let's review her role to date: her biggest scene comes in PS/SS, when she > has her conversation with Dumbledore at the very beginning, which is purely > for the readers' benefit. This conversation could just as easily have been > with Hagrid. :) > So I say, "off to the SCOW with her! Not only is she a superfluous > character, but she's an ineffectual leader as well!" Okay, so what if her time is yet to come? To touch on mythology here, Minerva was the goddess of wisdom and war. Used owls to send messages. Coincidence? I think not. Minerva was also the one who told Perseus how to defeat Medusa. I think Minerva McGonagall may be the one who is overlooked. That it could be she, not Sirius or Lupin or Dumbledore who guides Harry into the future victory over Voldemort. But then, it could just be me liking McGonagall. :) GulPlum/Richard again, on a different topic: > As it happens, *IF* I were to want to jump down your throat in this case, > it would be to decry your timidity and not only invite you to make the > connection, but pretty much ...err... force it down your throat (to > continue the metaphor).:-) Wow, coming from you, I take that as quite a complement. :) > There is a direct and uncontested link from Pater to Patronus - "-us" > (occasionally "-onus") is a common Latin suffix equivalent to English > suffix "-like" (which also made it into English via French as "-ous"). > Therefore Patronus originally meant "father-like", from which it took its > extended meanings as you outlined above. The very first time I saw the word What a relief. :) > Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection is that > Harry's is the only Patronus we've ever witnessed (or at least had > identified as such). Following on from the etymology above, I would surmise > that the expected form of a Patronus would be one's father. As I recall, > Harry's Patronus at the Quidditch match was "unfocussed", but even if it > wasn't particularly clear, it would have been obviously not human. Hence > Dumbledore's surprise. Ah, that is an interesting theory. I like that. I've looked up all I can find about the patronus, which isn't much. Let's go back as far as the dementor on the train. Lupin does something to get rid of the dementor, something that a "silvery thing shot out of his wand at it." Whether this was or wasn't a patronus, I don't know, Lupin did say there were "certain defenses one can use." This does imply there is more than one method. And Lupin's whatever wasn't seen clearly, so it could've been anything. Anyway, when Harry asked Lupin what a patronus looked like he says "Each one is unique to the wizard who conjure it." Well, obviously he's not going to say "it'll look like your dad" to Harry, that would get him a bit off task. And Lupin didn't show Harry a patronus. A good teacher--and I should know ;)--always demonstrates by modeling before asking a student to attempt the task. As Lupin seems to be a very good teacher, I wondered why, if this was such a complicated and advanced charm, that Lupin didn't show him so he'd know what to expect. If Harry'd known he was going to be seeing his father, or a form of his father, that would certainly make him unfocused to say the least. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Thu Oct 3 03:45:40 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 04:45:40 +0100 Subject: Poor Ron (was other stuff 3 times before!) In-Reply-To: <01c401c26a85$1de77d60$979fcdd1@istu757> References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021003041701.00979840@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44841 At 21:32 02/10/02 -0500, Richelle Votaw wrote: I'm going to pick on only one sentence... >Does Ron really >sit around worrying about his hand me downs as much as it seems he does? As someone who was been in *exactly* Ron's situation in this respect (apart from the Wizarding World connection, of course!) :-) I identify with him quite completely and his behaviour is *absolutely* true-to-life for me. In fact, I cringe during some of his scenes as I recognise myself at that age. A bit of background: I'm the second-youngest of seven kids and we were *poor* when I was growing up. VERY poor. However, we always had food to eat and a roof over our heads (though not necessarily a floor under our feet - long story!) - in fact the very roof under which I'm sitting right now! The first item of clothing I got brand new which wasn't a hand-me-down from my brother (18 months older than me, ideal difference for growing kids, especially as I was bigger than him until puberty struck) was a suit for my First Communion (hey, seven kids=Catholic family, doesn't it?). :-) Irony of ironies: my bother's - university - Graduation photo which has pride of place on the wall opposite me features me in my brother's old shabby suit, while he's wearing the one I bought for myself especially for the occasion, because - of course - it was inconceivable that I could look smarter than him! (we're exactly the same size as adults) Ron's line that "everything I own is rubbish" is something I probably said every single day of my life until I was about 12, and by that stage I'd gone off to a boarding school (thanks to a scholarship, of course), at which stage I had not my family to compare to, but my schoolmates, most of whom were very, very comfortably well off. Boy, was I a jealous and envious teenager! My clothes were rubbish and unfashionable (we didn't have a school uniform), all the kids walked around in jeans, except me of course, as my parents considered them too expensive (not to mention that neither of my parents have the slightest sense of style). :-) Add to that the fact that I've worn glasses since I was 8 (of course, the cheapest ones available), and you have a mix of neuroses which were a prime target for every single Malfoy type in the school. Little wonder that the first thing I spent my first proper wage packet on at the age of 14 (when I worked all through the summer holidays) was a down-payment on a decent pair of specs and a pair of Levis with which to impress the guys at school! If any of the above sounds like a whinge or a put-down of my parents, it's not meant to; I've tried to be as objectively factual as I could; I've certainly outgrown all of those problems and nowadays don't care a jot whether what I own is new or not, fashionable or not, even though I can afford to be choosy... From monica.coyne at tesco.net Thu Oct 3 04:06:06 2002 From: monica.coyne at tesco.net (Monica Coyne) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 04:06:06 -0000 Subject: OFF Latin in comprehensives In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021002113941.009921e0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44842 > > Errr... please name a single comprehensive school in Britain which teaches > Latin, In fact, I'd be curious to hear of one which has *ever* taught it... > It's contrary to the whole spirit of what comprehensive schooling has been > about since WWII. Grammar schools were already losing Latin by the sixties, > Greek having gone by the wayside even earlier. Even Public Schools (UK > meaning) have phased out Classics in favour of modern languages and/or IT > (I know for a fact that Westminster and Harrow offer it only as an > elective, taken up by VERY few pupils). Smeltings certainly doesn't strike > me as the type of place which would still teach Latin (despite its Latin > motto). > > GulPlum AKA Richard, UK I learned Latin at my comprehensive. I could have done A level if I'd wanted to. They still teach it. From pacific_k at hotmail.com Thu Oct 3 04:08:45 2002 From: pacific_k at hotmail.com (pacificlippert) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 04:08:45 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Weasley (was Re: Defending Harry (was Somebody please save Ron!) In-Reply-To: <01c401c26a85$1de77d60$979fcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44843 Richelle wrote: > Then there was the incident with the dress robes. Our dear sweet Molly > Weasley actually told her own son, "Fine, go naked. And Harry, make sure > you get a picture of him. Goodness knows I could do with a laugh." Actually, it sounds very much like something my mother said to my sister while growing up. At the time, my sister thought it was "mean"--my brothers and I thought it served her right, lol. >Ron's > next comment was "Why is everything I own rubbish?" Quite sad, coming from > a fourteen year old. Considering he's felt that way at least since he was > eleven. Most families who are poor manage in such a way that the children > usually don't even know it until they're grown and look back. I have to disagree. When you're poor, there's no hiding it--you might not know it at age 4, but certainly long before you're 11 you know there's no money. I can certainly remember eating food I hated d: (to this day I get sick at the smell of fish), and wearing clothes I hated, because that was all there was, and my parents didn't have to tell me that we were poor, or even that there was no money, we just knew. And if Ron is an awkward size to fit, as his mother says, he's certainly seen more than his share of ugly clothes, just as if he hates some food that the rest of the family likes, he's going to have seen a lot of it. But Ron is > very much aware of his family's monetary state. Which leads me to believe > either it is very unusual in the WW for a family to be so poor, or his > family does a lousy job of keeping the home life upbeat. Does Ron really > sit around worrying about his hand me downs as much as it seems he does? Oh, probably only when it's contrasted with people who are better off. We don't know enough to say that it's unusual, though I would expect that there are all sorts of ranges in the WW--we certainly aren't shown that the level of wealth the Malfoys display is the norm. I also think that the other kids are equally concerned about it--Fred and George have a "life savings" to bet, after all, which means they've been finding outside ways to make money for some time--we just don't hear about it, since our focus is very narrow. I know that when I was growing up, my brothers and I used to concoct elaborate plans to make money (some of them even worked, lol). We frequently complained, and in fact Ron sounds amazingly like my youngest brother. I'm not sure how you can make being poor "upbeat". My mother could tell us to be happy we were healthy until she was blue in the face--it wouldn't (and didn't) change any of the things I'd have liked changed. My family did the best they could, and we did have good times, but we never forgot we were poor. > Well, now I'm getting off track. Back to Mrs. Weasley. She could do > better. A lot better. She frequently shows more concern for Harry than > Ron. What does this mean? I don't have a clue. Have we ever seen her hug > Ron? snip > If I was seeing my mom for the first time in several months, I'd be a bit hurt if she hugged my > best friend before me. Let alone if she hugged him and not me! On the other hand, how many teenage guys do you know who want to hug their mom? _Especially_ in front of their friends? I think I can count...um...none (; My brothers were very fond of their best friends moms, and did occasionally hug them, but none of us wanted to hug _our_ mom...ick! lol. If Ron's anything like my brothers, he told her to lay off not long after she was rubbing dirt off his nose first year . Karie From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 3 06:55:38 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 06:55:38 -0000 Subject: Snape the Half-blood? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44844 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marinafrants" wrote: > > > As for Snape spending his childhood with his face in a book, I > suspect he did, but they would have to be magic books in order for > him to pick up all those Dark Curses. This suggests to me that he > wasn't raised by Muggles. Hermione didn't start reading up on > magic until after she got her Hogwarts letter, and while she did > know more spells than most first-years by the time she arrived, I > seem to don't think she could've competed with the seventh-years. > > Marina > rusalka at i... Don't worry, this isn't one of those theories that I'm going to defend to the death [grin]. However, the curses point: PS/SS "Hagrid almost had to drag Harry away from Curses and Counter Curses...."I was trying to find out how to curse Dudley.." [Ch. 5 p. 62 UK paperback]. So, if Snape [unlike Harry, but like Voldemort] did have knowledge of his magical heritage and did have a relation who took him to Diagon Alley as a child, he could have picked up books on curses. Or the muggle background could have been a result of a slow breakdown of his parents marriage, with lots of comments along the lines of 'I'm not having you do any of that stupid wand-waving in front of the boy!', culminating in 'That's it! I'm leaving! He's going to be brought up in a normal world, not one filled with wand-waving crackpots.' Snape might have been old enough to remember this. There are other arguments, but they're going to have to wait until I get back from work... [grin] Pip!Squeak From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 09:51:55 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 09:51:55 -0000 Subject: Book 5 Deaths and Diary!Riddle (WAS: Random Collection of Thoughts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44845 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: Phyllis: > bboy_mn wrote: > > > JKRowling does say that there will be more deaths, but did she > > actually say there would be significant deaths in book 5? > > Now me: > > bboy, I'm sharing Eloise's angst with you about not reading our posts > that reply to your questions! I replied to your question on this in > post #44107 and provided three JKR interview quotes in which she does > not directly reference deaths in Book 5. > > ~Phyllis OOPS! Sorry, I knew I'd heard the answer somewhere. I'm not ignoring peoples posts, I just have a memory like a sieve. I do read all the posts, especially if they are replies to mine. But, if I can't think of at least a short paragraph in reply, I usually don't reply, or no reply means you made a good point and I understood it, and either agreed or agreed to disagree. Sorry, I am really not trying to be a jerk. bboy_mn From loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 22:37:18 2002 From: loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com (Loony Loopy) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape the Half-blood? Message-ID: <20021002223718.9752.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44846 bluesqueak wrote: >Is Snape a half-blood? Not half-vampire, or >half-dementor, or half any other 'interestin' >creature' but plain old half-muggle. One of bluesqueak's supporting points was: >Snape refers to "foolish wand-waving". [PS/SS >Ch. 8 p.102 UK paperback]. This is a strange >comment for a full-blood wizard to make. For one >thing, it isn't that Snape is bad at wand- >waving. He shows considerable expertise in the >Shrieking Shack [PoA Ch.19, UK hardback] and in >CoS is described as having experience in >duelling [See CoS Ch. 11]. Further, wizards >brought up in the WW see their parents using >wands as a serious tool from babyhood.[See >especially GoF Ch.7 p.75 UK hardback for some >baby wizards using wands] bluesqueak also wrote: >For Snape to see wand waving as 'foolish' >suggests that he's been brought up *outside* the >WW, where wand-waving is just a game of 'let's >pretend'. I agree it's possible that Snape is half-Muggle, but his "foolish wand-waving" comment doesn't necessarily support this theory. Muggle children sometimes make "vroom, vroom" sound effects when pretending to drive their parents' cars. I imagine wizard children might have similar creative energies when trying to cast a spell that they don't yet know. I think Snape doesn't have the patience to put up with a class full of exaggerated wand-waving. Loony Loopy __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Thu Oct 3 00:30:15 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 00:30:15 -0000 Subject: Book 5 - Will Hagrid Die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44847 > > Jessica wrote- > Aside from Hagrid and Dumbledore, I can't really think of anyone else > that I'm sure is going to kick the big one. While I do think that there is the possibility of Hagrid dying, I'm afraid my thoughts tend to linger more towards someone else. I also realize that as soon as I dare make this suggestion, I am going to have an angry mob come and attack me. I heard from someone(but if someone can contradict this, go ahead), that JKR or someone said that it would be an 'unlikely fan of Harry's' or someone unexpected who would be the unlucky person. When I read this, combined with one other specific point from the book, my mind travels to one person:Snape. Now, as I'm ducking the rotten produce all the Snape lovers must be throwing at me right now, let me defend myself. First of all, it's pretty obvious that he is the DE that Voldemort talks about eliminating in the Graveyard scene. Beyond that, if the 'unlikely fan' is true, Snape seems to be the one character who fits that description. To me, despite his demeaner, some part of him can't help but like, or at least want to protect, Harry. ~Risti, who is standing her ground, waiting for the mob to attack. From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Thu Oct 3 01:12:51 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 01:12:51 -0000 Subject: All a dream (was End of Harry Potter Series) In-Reply-To: <04D15026.5FF0AE18.0290C41F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44848 Katy wrote: > Now could anyone tell me a reason why this won't work? I really don't want it to work. Please? Well, I would like to take the "frame" theory that several have talked about(The series wasn't started in a frame, i.e., we didn't start with 'Harry awoke one morning...') just a little bit further to extrapolate my own possible end of the series. We open the story first discussing the Dursley family, then the way that the wizarding world is affecting the muggle world over such a big event, and then focus in on a conversation between Dumbledore and McGonnagall that sets up the whole series. What if the ending was a reversal of that. I'd write it all out, but that would be fan fiction, so let me just give a general summary. Dumbledore and McGonnagall: We see them discussing all that has happenned, and how Harry really did exceed all their expectations(or something to this affect). Muggle World: I would love it if this played as almost a mirror scene to the first chapter of PS/SS. Owls flying all over the place, wizards rejoicing in public over the destruction of Lord Voldemort, and finally Vernon Dursley noticing something strange on his way home from work. Dursley family: I'd say that at this point, presumably the beginning of summer after Harry's seventh year, there are two options. Option #1: Harry has come home to the Dursley's, signifying some kind of healing in that relationship. If this is the case, then they might even be somewhat aware of what's going on. This could tie in with the proposed theory that Harry sacrifice his wizarding powers to defeat Voldemort. If this is the scenario, I could see it being one of the Dursley's saying, "I see you finally figured out a way to cover up that scar!" Option #2: Harry doesn't go home to the Dursley's, signifying a complete break in that relationship. In this scenario, I see Mr. Dursley pulling his wife aside similiar to how he did in the first book, to ask whether this could have something to do with 'Harry's type.' As I'm sure by now they'd realize that it must, I could see them muttering some kind of ignorant, silly remark. At this point, I see a narration returning very much to the way the first sentence was. "The Dursley family after this point returned to a very ordinairy life, almost, but not completely, forgetting that they had ever had a nephew with a nasty scar." ~Risti From lupinesque at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 10:22:18 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 10:22:18 -0000 Subject: Snape the Half-blood? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44849 Pip the indefatigable wrote: > Is Snape a half-blood? Not half-vampire, or half-dementor, or half > any other 'interestin' creature' but plain old half-muggle. > > Consider: 'Severus' certainly sounds like the sort of name an pure > wizarding family would give their child, but it might also be the > sort of name a wizarding parent married to a muggle would insist on - > to signify that *their* heritage is the more important. This is an ingenious argument! So an odd name means that someone's parents are wizards, unless it means his parents aren't wizards. And speaking of magic, but flashing back a few hundred years for some reason, did you know that if someone denies she's a witch, it's proof that she's a witch? Especially if she doesn't drown when thrown into deep water . . . > What other wizard *ever* regards wand-waving as foolish? Trelawney makes the same *kind* of comment, for IMO the same reason: snobbery about forms of magic besidesher specialty. (Her comment is about bangs and smells, an obvious dig at Charms, Transfiguration, and Potions, but I can't quote it exactly because my PoA is where it belongs, next to my side of the bed, and there's a sleeping spouse in there.) In a similar vein, McGonagall brags that her field is "some of the most complex and dangerous magic" (PS/SS 8). Standard professorial snobbery. Snape is of course perfectly capable of wand-waving, and I'm sure has all due respect for it. He's just constitutionally incapable of starting his class without pointing out the superiority of Potions over all other fields. He is also probably hypersensitive to the fact that new (and especially Muggle-born) students think Potions is like cooking and about as exciting, whereas give 'em a wand to wave and they think "now THIS is magic." I bet he wouldn't say it in front of Flitwick or McGonagall, though. Amy Z From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 10:44:15 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 10:44:15 -0000 Subject: obstruction of justice In-Reply-To: <20021002183433.75226.qmail@web21406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44850 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryl Garfio wrote: > brainattic writes: > The Weasleys' summer magical exploits are not a violation of the > Underage Wizardry law because they take place in the Burrow, which > is not in the Muggle world (except for Ron's flying car in CoS, > which was in violation of the Muggle artifacts law as well as the > Underage Wizardry law, and was quickly detected by the MoM). > Magic performed by underage wizards in the WW is perfectly legal. > bboy_mn cautiously replies: Hummm... I'm not saying your wrong. But I thought they (the school) warned all students not to perform magic over the summer holiday. Which would seem to make it not necessarily illegal but against the rules for ever student. We are really dealing with two laws/rules. Underage kids performing magic, and magic being performed in ways that muggles could see it. Underage magic in the WIZARD world, I see it as about as serious a crime as stealing an apple from the neighbor's apple tree. So minor and insignificant that the Ministry can't be bothered with it. Hardly qualifing as anything but mischief. So while it may be against the rules technically, I think it's generally accepted as OK as long as it's not actually causing a problem. Magic with the potential for discovery by muggles on the other hand is a very serious crime. Probably the most important purpose of the Ministry is to make sure muggles don't find out about magic and the wizard world. So they would treat this as top priotity. I think they are monitoring Harry very closely because he is Harry, because he is an important person to the wizard world. Important in the past, and I think a lot of people know his greatest importance will be in the future. So I think they are making a serious effort to monitor and protect him. The owl arrived so quickly after Dobby smashed the pudding, that it must have been sitting on the garden fence waiting. Really, it got there unusually fast. (Sorry, got distacted; I guess this is more of a side note.) So, in summary, while I don't agree with you based on a technicality. I do agree with you in practice. Underage magic in the wizard world is insignificant; legally not worth bothering with. Sherry continues and references Jessica: > JKR has an outstanding opportunity here to model appropriate > loving relationships for young people at a critical time in > their development. Love should be about things like commitment, > sacrifice, support, nurturing, and relying on each other, not > about what happens in the back seat of your dad's car. I think > we can assume from the evidence in Jessica's post that she will > take full advantage of this opportunity in any romances that develop. > > Sherry Very nicely put. I think JKR will do an excellent job at it too. Not only will she show the important aspects of relationship that you out lined above, but I think she will show that relationship involve work, struggle, and commitment. She will not present them as fairy tale everything is perfect story book romances. Too many kids think real life should be like the Disney TV where everything is perfect. She will not only re-enforce the quality of relationship, but she will re-enforce the realities of relationships. Welcome aboard. bboy_mn From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 3 11:33:05 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 11:33:05 -0000 Subject: Harry's Patronus In-Reply-To: <025101c26a8b$7f4f5860$979fcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44851 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > Anyway, when Harry asked Lupin what a patronus looked like he says "Each one > is unique to the wizard who conjure it." Well, obviously he's not going to > say "it'll look like your dad" to Harry, that would get him a bit off task. This may be excessively nitpicky of me, but I must point out that if the Patronus looks like the caster's father, then it's not "unique to the wizard who conjures it" -- all the Weasley kids would have the same Patronus, for example. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Oct 3 11:48:19 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 06:48:19 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Poor Ron (was other stuff 3 times before!)/ Book 5 deaths References: <4.2.0.58.20021003041701.00979840@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <00cf01c26ad2$c57d6100$46a3cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44852 GulPlum wrote: > I'm going to pick on only one sentence... Only one? :) > >Does Ron really > >sit around worrying about his hand me downs as much as it seems he does? > > Ron's line that "everything I own is rubbish" is something I probably said > every single day of my life until I was about 12, and by that stage I'd > gone off to a boarding school (thanks to a scholarship, of course), at > which stage I had not my family to compare to, but my schoolmates, most of > whom were very, very comfortably well off. Boy, was I a jealous and envious > teenager! My clothes were rubbish and unfashionable (we didn't have a > school uniform), all the kids walked around in jeans, except me of course, > as my parents considered them too expensive (not to mention that neither of > my parents have the slightest sense of style). :-) It's like Harry and Ron are the complete opposites here. Harry has all the money he could possibly want, but no family at all. Ron has all the family he could possibly want, but no money at all. When Harry first visits The Burrow Ron nervously awaits his opinion. Throws in a little "It's a bit small. Not like that room you had with the Muggles." Yet Harry's first (and only) response is a big grin, and "This is the best house I've ever been in." Of course, it was the first wizard house he'd ever been in, that he could remember. But what Harry liked most was "that everybody there seemed to like him." His month at the Burrow had been "the happiest of his life." Ron has the family Harry's always wanted. Harry has the gold Ron's always wanted. > bboy_mn wrote: > > > JKRowling does say that there will be more deaths, but did she > > actually say there would be significant deaths in book 5? > > Now me: > > bboy, I'm sharing Eloise's angst with you about not reading our posts > that reply to your questions! I replied to your question on this in > post #44107 and provided three JKR interview quotes in which she does > not directly reference deaths in Book 5. > > ~Phyllis Well, while I will admit that there is no direct reference to a death specifically stating in book 5, since there are so many references to future deaths they've got to start somewhere. And since they have already started, with Cedric (and Frank Bryce etc.), it would be inconsistent to suddenly have an entire book (large one at that) with no deaths at all. There's got to be at least one. Richelle (who will now go back to bed and listen to the wind and rain) From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Oct 3 12:21:17 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 08:21:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's patronus Message-ID: <189.f236d0c.2acd903d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44853 Richard: > Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection is that > Harry's is the only Patronus we've ever witnessed (or at least had > identified as such). Following on from the etymology above, I would surmise > > that the expected form of a Patronus would be one's father. As I recall, > Harry's Patronus at the Quidditch match was "unfocussed", but even if it > wasn't particularly clear, it would have been obviously not human. Hence > Dumbledore's surprise. > > P.S. The nominative plural of Patronus is Patronus. :-) > < tentatively, remembering that the last time they met, Richard had come over all Hannibal Lecter and was offering her Chianti> I think we do see, at least at second hand, another Patonus: Hermione describes how Dumbledore, 'whirled his wand at the Dementors. Shot silver stuff at them.' But she evidently didn't recognise the form it took (silver bees?). No, it's not specifically called a Patronus, but what else could it be? (It's one of JKR's typical introductions of something a little time before we realise it's relevance.) Isn't 'patronus' a second declension noun, rather than fifth? So the nominative plural is 'patroni' (and the accusative is patronum, as in the incantation, 'Expecto Patronum'). Eloise Who's never yet threatened to eat a fellow list member, although now the subject comes up, she is rather partial to plums, particularly if stewed with a little sugar. ;-) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidit at netbox.com Thu Oct 3 13:28:56 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 13:28:56 -0000 Subject: Foolery (was Re: [HPforGrownups] obstruction of justice) In-Reply-To: <014801c26a84$12cc4740$177d63d1@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44854 Far be it for me to disagree with the LOONiest of LOONs (and I mean that in an endearing and praiseworthy way) but... This isn't a FLINT. Perhaps Here's why it might be. In CoS, we're told that the "reasonable restrictions on underage sorcery" date from 1895 (yes, let's trust Mafalda is right on that)... however Here's why it isn't a FLINT. In PS/SS, Petunia says that Lily came home in summers and turned teacups into rats. If she did that and wasn't punished by the Ministry (and we have no indication from canon that she was) then while there may not be canon support for a <>, as requested by Amanda, there certainly is canon support for nonenforcement of said statute even where such magic is done in the "Muggle" world. Hence, possibly a minor mystery. Not a FLINT, as it's internally consistent with other things in the books. It's also not a new topic, per se, as Eloise and Amy, among others, have mentioned Riddle's use of AK and his seeming lack of punishment by the wizarding authorities therefor - I mean, AK equals a life term in Azkaban, so if he had been arrested and convicted, *someone* would've known about it, so the only reasonable conclusion is that he was never convicted. There has been much talk on this list over the past two-plus years as to whether it's easy for the Ministry to find wizards who perform magic but are underaged, and a lot of people have proposed that as the Dursleys' house is somehow "looked after" because of Harry, it's easy for them to see what is going on over there. However, it is implied that Fred and George are performing magic all the time at the Burrow, and we've seen nothing happen to them. JKR has even said that Harry doesn't quite realise how well protected he is at the Privet Drive, so it's logical to conclude that there's something monitering the house for the performance of spells. Heidi http://www.fictionalley.org --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amanda Geist" wrote: > Let said listmembers also take note > that, unless one invents explanations such as a post-Riddle-time creation of > the Restriction on Underage Wizardry, brainattic has also found a minor > Flint (again, in my own opinion)." Amanda pauses for breath. > > "Therefore, I call the attention of the other L.O.O.N.s on the list (you > know who you are), to keep an eye on this one. And to consider this for > entry into the rolls of Flints (or at least minor mysteries). Thank you and > goodnight." > From: "brainattic" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 4:27 AM > Subject: [HPforGrownups] obstruction of justice > > > > According to the Lexicon, Riddle murdered his father's family during > > the summer vacation before his seventh year. Why wasn't he caught by > > the Ministry for violating the Decree for the Restriction of Underage > > Wizardry? Also, since they seem to be able to pinpoint your exact > > location and what kind of spell you did, shouldn't they have known > > that he perfomed the Avada Kedavra Curse? > > Of course, the whole thing having happened during WWII(early 1940's), > > it's possible they were quite distracted at the time. > > > > "Brain attic" From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Oct 3 13:48:13 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 13:48:13 -0000 Subject: Black and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44855 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > > I just believe that Black and Snape are the from the same cookie > cutter but are decorated with different icing. And they loath each > other for it. > Just the impression I had. I think you are right on target. Their tempers are similar. IMO, the loathing they have for each other must be based on something deeper than that childhood prank- but of course, I could be wrong. Childhood hurts can run very deep. And when one has a tendency to "hold" onto resentments-its easy to keep the hurt fresh in your mind. I believe that both Snape and Black have exhibited this tendency. It can be argued that Black has a greater justification for his inability to "let things go" due to his injust imprisonment. When you are driven by revenge, and that is all you can see, reasoning flies out the window. IMO, both Snape and Black have exhibited this behavior. bugaloo37-who has not renounced her affection for Sirius one iota. From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu Oct 3 14:21:07 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 14:21:07 +0000 Subject: [HP4Grownups] Potions Are Made of These (FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44856 Potions Are Made of These (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Memories Are Made of These_ performed by Dean Martin) Listen to a small portion of the original here: http://www.wedalert.com/songs/realaudiosongs/couples_first_dance/ram/Memories_Are_Made.ram Potions Class Students Singing Background: (Complete...the potions you teach-a-me, You can't beat the potions you teach-a-me) Snape: Take one fresh and tender newt Add your sliced up ginger roots One powdered shrew One flowered rue Potions are made of these Don't forget heart of crocodile Fold in lightly with some bile Twig of hemlock A sprig of dock Potions are made of these Then add the blindworm's sting Lizard's leg and owlet's wing A little saline for the flavor Let simmer for two hours Just feel the subtle power These are the fumes that I savor If you're not dunderhead And you've done just what I've said This potent brew Will work for you Potions are made of these -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Oct 3 15:28:01 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 15:28:01 -0000 Subject: obstruction of justice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44857 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "brainattic" wrote: > According to the Lexicon, Riddle murdered his father's family during the summer vacation before his seventh year. Why wasn't he caught by the Ministry for violating the Decree for the Restriction of Underage Wizardry?<< Riddle could have turned seventeen during his sixth year, just as Fred and George did. JKR has also said that when Harry turns seventeen he'll be allowed to do magic outside school. Also, the Lexicon dates conform to canon but are not the only possible interpretation. By making slightly different assumptions, one can devise other chronologies that fit the canon just as well and make Riddle a year or so older than Steve does. >> Also, since they seem to be able to pinpoint your exact location and what kind of spell you did, shouldn't they have known that he perfomed the Avada Kedavra Curse? << They don't seem to have known that Frank Bryce was killed by magic, either. (We know he was, because he came out of Voldemort's wand). In fact, Dumbledore says that the Ministry paid little attention to Frank's disappearance even after they were told it might be connected to Voldemort. The fact that the Riddles' deaths were the subject of a prolonged investigation by the Muggle authorities most likely means the Ministry never connected their deaths with magic at all, much less Tom Riddle. Had the ministry been involved, they would have covered up the whole thing with memory charms, and there would have been no mystery for the village to muddle over for fifty years. Concerning Fred, George and Lily, the Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery says "not permitted to perform spells" at least according to Mme. Hopkirk. This is a loophole plenty big enough for a Weasley to wiggle through, since the creation of canary creams and ton-tongue toffees would most likely involve potion-making not spell-work. As for Lily's teacups that turn into rats, she could have charmed them while she was at school--another loophole. Or maybe it was not magic at all but sleight of hand --- and the rat was Peter! Pippin From bradwnewman at hotmail.com Thu Oct 3 04:06:35 2002 From: bradwnewman at hotmail.com (holey_moley2) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 04:06:35 -0000 Subject: Peeves' function in the story In-Reply-To: <8ueqe2+630a@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44858 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Flying Ford Anglia" wrote: > Peeves:- > > Knowing JKR's fondness for wordplay in the naming of characters, I > find it interesting that "Pensieve" is an anagram of "In Peeves" and > wonder whether Peeves is a personification of Dumbledore's spare > thoughts, a bit like an id. IMO, it would explain how Dumbledore > manages to keep such a close eye on things without roaming around > Hogwarts himself, and we know that Dumbledore has a mischievous, > adolescent vein in his personality. > > So, how about it: is Peeves Dumbledore's inner teenager let loose on > the unsuspecting students? I searched for a post such as this & was unable to find one that has mentioned what Nearly Headless Nick said in chapter seven of the first book - that is... "My dear Friar, haven't we given Peeves all the chances he deserves? He gives us all a bad name and you know, he's not really even a ghost -- I say, what are you all doing here?" If "he's not really even a ghost", then your thoughts become intriguing Anglia. Holey_Moley2 From the.gremlin at verizon.net Thu Oct 3 04:38:38 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 04:38:38 -0000 Subject: Black and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44859 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > With this questioning about Snape's blood, I wondered about something. > > In GoF chapter Padfoot Returns, Black said in the cave "Snape has > always been interested in the Dark Arts." From this, I left the > chapter wondering if Black and Snape had somehow grown-up knowing > about each other. I know, those few words are not definitive proof, > but it did leave me wondering... > > I wonder if Black and Snape are from wizard families that are not > necessarily close friends but are aware of each other and are civil. > The feud between Snape and Black does not seem to be one that was > inherited but rather started between themselves. Maybe Snape and > Black went to the same wizard pre-school and from the beginning they > just crossed. I know, I know I have no canon proof, but from that > conversation between The Three and Black, it seemed to me that Black > knows more about Snape than just as Hogwarts school chums. > > I always saw them as equals in life. They seem, to me, to be from > close to the same backgrounds, same education, same brilliance, same > cuteness (if Snape would wash the hair), hey, same hair color... > > They both even have a fondness for hexes. Black's recommendation on > the dragon in Task #1 was a hex after all, and he also wrote to Potter > advising him learn a few hexes for Task #3. Seems Black knows how a > good hex can help as I am sure Snape knows from his extensive research > as a child. (*reading* all those books in his parents' library) ;) > Well, we don't know enough about Snape and Black to figure out if they knew each other before or not, but to me, it doesn't seem like Sirius knows anymore about Snape than Remus does. What I've seen of Sirius's knowledge, it seems to me like someone who hated someone at school and just knew enough about them to generate hate. Kind of like how I hated all the obviouly fake blonde girls at school because they were cheerleaders, drank every weekend, and were really stupid (at least, they seemed so to me). Sirius knew this about Snape: he was ugly (only to Sirius, of course ), he knew a lot of Dark curses, and he wasn't pleasant to be around. Add that to confrontations with MWPP, plus the prank, which WAS Sirius's idea, and aimed towards Snape, that generates enough hatred on Snape's side. As for Sirius's hatred of Snape, I'm guessing that Sirius had a 'holier than thou' attitude towards Snape, which he still seems to have, and when Snape started going off on the prank, and how it was attempted murder, Sirius had enough there to generate his own hatred. > I just believe that Black and Snape are the from the same cookie > cutter but are decorated with different icing. And they loath each > other for it. Which lends the image of Christmas cookies decorated as Snape and Black. How would you ice Snape's greasy hair? I should try that one day. > > > Just the impression I had. It's a cool impressions, but like you said, it doesn't have canon evidence. I was just going based on what I saw in canon, which is based on my memory of canon, since canon is SIX HOURS AWAY! Ooh, what if they were brothers? I don't think that theory's been touched yet. Or has it? -Acire, who is going to invite her friends over to make Snape cookies next week, and who is four days away from getting her canon back! Yay! From magicy2jai at cox.net Thu Oct 3 15:41:54 2002 From: magicy2jai at cox.net (Jai Marie) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:41:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peeves' function in the story References: Message-ID: <031b01c26af3$66e0f050$0500a8c0@domain316.local> No: HPFGUIDX 44860 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Flying Ford Anglia" wrote: > So, how about it: is Peeves Dumbledore's inner teenager let loose on > the unsuspecting students? Then Holey_Moley2 wrote: <> Now Me: It's common "ghost hunter" theory that poltergeists aren't really ghosts at all, but a form of energy that manifests itself in rattling doors, cups flying off shelves, exploding things, etc. That's why you hear about poltergeists often in households with volatile adolescents or other emotionally charged situations. That's probably why Nick says Peeves isn't really a ghost, but that still could explain Anglia's theory. Jai "You can safely assume you've created God in your own image if he hates all the same people you do." - Anne Lamott "Jon, what part of 'embetterment' don't you understand?" - Stephen Colbert, 'The Daily Show' [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 15:56:57 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 15:56:57 -0000 Subject: How about this? (was: Re: All a dream) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44861 An idea suddenly came to me as I was reading back upon some old posts. What if we're all wrong on this dream thing--but also sort of right in the idea? Granted that a "Dream" isn't the best way to end it, but how about something *else.* What if the end of the book is infact another character summerizing up what happend? This would then mean that everything in the land of Potter-ville actually happened, but someone else is saying what happend to every one. If Harry were to **cough**die**cough**, wouldn't this be the best way to summarize what happend? Perhaps Hermione could be writing a letter to someone and explain what has happend since? Example: "Things didn't end up as we thought they were. Ron and I were married, but he was murdered. And no one ever forgot the boy with the lightning bolt on his forehead--his scar." I know that I haven't explained this properly, but this sounded good in my head. Oh well, time to wave the NINE flag. --Fyre Wood, who is probably going to be yelled at for this horrible post ;) From eclipse02134 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 16:00:02 2002 From: eclipse02134 at yahoo.com (Eclipse) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] End of HP In-Reply-To: <025101c26a8b$7f4f5860$979fcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <20021003160002.51118.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44862 I think an interesting way to end the series would be for Harry to look down into the face of his newborn son and there on his forehead is a lighting shaped scar. Only problem with that is it would be a birthmark and not a scar. Eclipse __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From eclipse02134 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 16:02:18 2002 From: eclipse02134 at yahoo.com (Eclipse) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] End of HP// In-Reply-To: <025101c26a8b$7f4f5860$979fcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <20021003160218.71540.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44863 I think an interesting way to end it would be for Harry to look into the face of his newborn son and there on his forehead is a lighting shaped scar. Only problem is it would be a birthmark insted of a scar. Eclipse __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Oct 3 16:13:45 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 16:13:45 -0000 Subject: The Ginny Weasley Quotient In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44864 > > Judy had previously said: > > If she is the chatterbox Ron says she is, and brave enough to be sorted into Gryffindor, why not stammer, stumble and mumble her way through asking Harry to take her to the Yule Ball as Harry did Cho and Ron did Fleur? Even a Hufflepuff girl managed it. > > and I responded: > > Because she was a third year. She couldn't invite *anyone* to the ball. It'd be pretty pushy to ask Harry or anyone else to invite > her to a function she wouldn't otherwise be entitled to attend. > > Judy responds: > JKR makes a point of mentioning that the Hufflepuff girl who asked Harry was also a THIRD YEAR Ch, 22 Pg 389 (American edition) and that she hadn't spoken a word to him in her life. (Obviously admiring him from afar, as had Ginny.) As least Harry and Ginny had exchanged pleasantries and had a shared adventure. All he could have said was "no." That would have been a difficult thing for her to do and a way to hint at Ginny's latent courage and perhaps foreshadow bigger things to come.<< We may be impressed by that Hufflepuff's gumption, but Harry isn't. He turns her down. And he doesn't look her up again, even after Cho's turned *him* down and he's desperate. Plus he got teased about it by Dean, Seamus and Ron (but not Neville, interestingly.) Why would they have teased him, if she weren't doing something a bit gauche? I can just imagine the ribbing both Harry and Ginny would have gotten if she'd asked him, particularly if he'd said no. I'd say it showed good manners and sensitivity on her part, not a lack of guts. I agree that JKR is keeping us from finding out what Ginny's like, but not because Ginny's got some sinister character flaw. For those who say that Ginny can't be important enough for Harry to be emotionally involved with her, I say, look at Sirius. We've seen a lot less of him than of Snape, or Dumbledore, or even McGonagall, and yet there's no doubt that Harry cares more for Sirius than any of those three. A person can become important to Harry without being anywhere near as major a character as Ron and Hermione are. Right now, Ginny seems to be a giggly girl who was duped by Voldemort. And for nearly all of PoA, we thought Sirius Black was a homicidal maniac who was serving Voldemort. It didn't take long for JKR to undo that impression, did it? Pippin From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Oct 3 16:33:39 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:33:39 -0700 Subject: Sirius, was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Ginny Weasley Quotient In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4346167847.20021003093339@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44865 Hi, Thursday, October 03, 2002, 9:13:45 AM, pippin_999 wrote: > And for nearly all of PoA, we thought Sirius Black was > a homicidal maniac who was serving Voldemort. It didn't take > long for JKR to undo that impression, did it? And I'm still not all that convinced that Sirius is an all around good guy. Just some gut feeling... I wonder if we'll find out more about the "great" friendship between James, Lupin, Sirius, and Peter (somewhat), and maybe discover that things weren't always all that great. And I still want to know why Sirius, and James, thought it was such a good idea to make Peter the secret keeper, and what Lily thought of all this (was she even asked?). -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 17:15:35 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 17:15:35 -0000 Subject: End of HP// In-Reply-To: <20021003160218.71540.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44866 Eclipse posted: > I think an interesting way to end it would be for > Harry to look into the face of his newborn son and > there on his forehead is a lighting shaped scar. Only > problem is it would be a birthmark insted of a scar. > > Eclipse What an interesting idea! Now, if this were to be true... consider the following: 1. Who'd be the mother of his child? 2. Would Ron be the Godfather? 3. What would be name it? I honestly think that he'd marry someone we've yet to meet. Harry seems like the type of guy who'd meet someone completely new and marry her. It would definately make things easier regarding the love square theory and the whole "OBHWF" idea. I'd like to see Ron be the grandfather, and perhaps name the child after his late father, James. --Fyre Wood. From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Oct 3 17:34:03 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 17:34:03 -0000 Subject: Sirius, was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Ginny Weasley Quotient In-Reply-To: <4346167847.20021003093339@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44867 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Susanne wrote: > And I'm still not all that convinced that Sirius is an all > around good guy. > Just some gut feeling... > Being such an ardent supporter of Sirius, I am always interested in discussing him. What basis do you have for your opinion regarding Sirius? You stated it was a "gut feeling". But even gut feelings can have some foundation in canon. Following the revelation in the Shrieking Shack, regarding Black's innocence, IMO, I have not observed any possible "mysterious" undertones into any action of Black's regarding Harry. He seems to be a concerned godfather- looking out for and keeping an eye on Harry. He declared his allegience to Dumbledore when he apparently set out to carry out Dumbledore's order at the end of GoF. IMO, we have no reason to suspect Sirius' motives at present. bugaloo37-who simply must defend Sirius From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Oct 3 18:18:22 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:18:22 -0700 Subject: Harry and Lupin's Patroni In-Reply-To: <025101c26a8b$7f4f5860$979fcdd1@istu757> References: <4.2.0.58.20021003011429.00973f00@plum.cream.org> <025101c26a8b$7f4f5860$979fcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <15973062734.20021003111822@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44868 Wednesday, October 2, 2002, 8:18:07 PM, Richelle Votaw wrote: RV> As Lupin seems to be a very good teacher, I wondered why, if this was RV> such a complicated and advanced charm, that Lupin didn't show him so he'd RV> know what to expect. If Harry'd known he was going to be seeing his RV> father, or a form of his father, that would certainly make him unfocused to RV> say the least. Knowing that everyone's Patronus is different, maybe Lupin thought that letting Harry see one would give him presupposition about what one is supposed to look like and that *that* would throw him off. What *is* Lupin's Patronus, I wonder? I had this idea of it being an image of Earth with a Saturn-like ring system, i.e. the moon has disintegrated, liberating all werewolves forever! -- Dave From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 18:26:07 2002 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 18:26:07 -0000 Subject: Love Potions (WAS Thoughts on SHIPS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44869 Sydney wrote- > Stupid love, though -- the kind of self-absorbed, fantasizing, > hormonal thing one goes through at age 15 -- I think is going to > gone into in OoP. There's a bit of that with the Cho Chang crush, > of course, but if I have one Book V prediction it would be: love > potion hi-jinks. There's no way JKR would plug a magic artifact > TWICE in GoF without intending it to come back in a big way. > > THAT kind of passion is very familiar and it does feel very much > as though one is the helpless victim of a chemical reaction! > > My prediction of the victim: Draco, or possibly Hermionie. Or > both? > Oh man, do you think Snape will be teaching a class on love potions?!?!? I would love to see that. Something about the idea of Snape doing something that gooey and romantic and the revulsion he would undoubtably have for it makes me want to laugh. You know he would jump on the oportunity to humiliate Harry and the other Gryffindors by making them act like idiots for each other. I do hope that happens but I think it would probably be the students acting independently to perhaps get Draco to fall in love with someone or something very embarassing. -Olivia Grey From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Oct 3 18:27:00 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 18:27:00 -0000 Subject: Harry's Green Eyes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44870 I am sure this topic has been brought before. But I would like to open it up again. The only thing Harry seems to have inherited from his mother is his startling green eyes. Sometimes I wonder if any other attributes may have been inherited that we have not been introduced to yet. I know at some point the importance of Harry's eyes is going to be brought foward in the series-according to JKR, who seemed rather suprised that someone apparently caught onto the green eye connection. I guess what I am wanting to discuss here is any theories the rest of you have concerning Harry's green eyes-their importance. First, let me present my ideas concerning the eyes. Voldemort's rise to power was set into motion by his overwhelming resentment of his muggle father. What better way to bring about or at least, set into motion, the downfall of Voldemort than through an ability of Harry's inherited from his muggle-born mother. I am not talking fate here- as I have repeated many times, I do not believe in fate-I am talking about Harry's ability to realize within himself a power inherited from his mother. Harry's love for his muggle-born mother is in direct oppostion to Voldemort's disdain for all things muggle. Lily's love for Harry has already proven valuable. IMO, I do not believe we have seen the last of Lily Potter's abilities - passed onto her son-in action. bugaloo37-who cannot wait to know Lily Potter's character better From jodel at aol.com Thu Oct 3 18:42:08 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:42:08 EDT Subject: Magic detection/Magical Births (was Magic in Hols) Message-ID: <160.14f0ecda.2acde980@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44871 RM writes; >>So I'd say the ministry monitors known wizards living with muggles, but has to be actively monitoring to know that there is something going on. The mysterious death of three muggles wouldn't automatically show up on their radar screen.<< Makes good sense to me. And once a Muggle-born student aquires a wand their proximity seems to join the list of areas to monitor. But there are lapses in this suggestion. What I find interesting, is that despite the somewhat draconian monitoring of the Dursley residence in CoS and later, the many and notable "breakthroughs" that Harry had all through the ten years that he lived with the Dursleys before he got his Hogwarts letter seem to have been completely ignored by the Ministry. No one obliviated Harry or the witnesses when he inadvertantly Apparated himself to the school kitchen roof. Or when he turned his teacher's wig blue. No one showed up to contain the panic when he let the snake out of it's enclosure. But when he blew up his aunt at a private dinner at home the Ministry sent in the Magical Reversal squad. More from RM; >>Although, there is a question about how this is consistent or inconsistent with the detection of a wizard born to muggles -- is there some automatic way that they know when a wizard has been born, but no automatic way that they track magical activity, what is the difference between the modes of detection?<< Well, the recording of all magical births is done by the charmed quill at Hogwarts, ac cording to Rowling. (I am still holding by my own theory that the quill is charmed to pick up the specific psychic resonance/frequency which is characteristic to the response of a magical child under the effects of the sort of preasure/pain/terror induced by the birth process itself. The kind of unthinking reaction which morons like Neville's great-uncle try to incuce by frightening or startling a child in order to make them show magic.) But, as you and I both point out, simply recording the birth of a magical child does not appear to result in any sort of follow-up on the part of the Ministry. In fact, such births may not even be reported to the Ministry. I suggest that every wand which is produced has something like a registry spell which is activated when the wand is purchased, and that the Ministry has the option of using these regestry spells to trace and monitor the presence of magic in the proximity of the wand. In most cases this capability is not followed up on. But in the cases of known Muggle-born magicals these spells are activated as a security measure. (I wonder if Hermione realizes that Muggle borns are being subjected to an inequity there? Clearly the Ministry does not "trust" them...) In Harry's case, the registry spell could be reacting badly with a pre-existing survelance spell on 4 Privit Drive, but that is only one possibility. In any case, we have sufficient information to support the possibility that Harry's experience is not typical. (Jaye's point that the adventure of the floating pudding in CoS may have been specifically called to the attention of the Ministry by Dobby himself is a good one, btw.) Note: My hypothesis is that if a magical child, under stress, can and often does produce spontaneous and uncontrolled magic, (which is proven as being the case within canon) then this capability might be extended to very early stages of development if the stress under which the individual is subjected is great enough. If this is also the case, then the birthing process could reasonably be supposed to produce a level of stress which might provoke such a response. Which opens another can of worms. Clearly any magical breakthrough produced by a typical infant during birth could cause considerable complications. (And may contribute to the *apparantly* generally low birthrate among witches.) In St. Mungo's there must be spells deployed by the medi-staff to reduce or eliminate any potential damage to both mother and infant. And in most cases these breakthroughs must be slight enough to not produce a great deal of physical harm in the first place, or there would be a lot of Muggle-born children with stepmothers. But it has certainly occured to me that by the late 1920s deaths in childbirth were no longer common. And young Mrs. Riddle was bringing forth a what would be a powerfully magical child assisted only by Muggle science. -JOdel From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Oct 3 18:50:22 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:50:22 -0700 Subject: Sirius, was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Ginny Weasley Quotient In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16754371895.20021003115022@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44872 Hi, Thursday, October 03, 2002, 10:34:03 AM, bugaloo37 wrote: > What basis do you have for your opinion regarding > Sirius? You stated it was a "gut feeling". But even gut feelings can > have some foundation in canon. As I said, the gut feeling stems more from the past happenings then what came after PoA. One thing, though, and I know many people (rightly) believe Sirius was crazed from having been innocently imprisoned at Azkaban, but the following scene has never stuck well with me: PoA, in the Shrieking Shack ************** But Black's free hand had found Harry's throat "No," he hissed, "I've waited too long --" The fingers tightened, Harry choked, his glasses askew. Then he saw Hermione's foot swing out of nowhere. Black let go of Harry with a grunt of pain; ************** I realize Harry attacked Sirius first, and while Sirius is emaciated from his Azkaban stay, he's still a full grown adult and there are other way's to deal with someone "short and skinny and thirteen" besides choking them out. And I'm not 100% sure he would have stopped if Ron and Hermione hadn't helped out. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From msbonsai at mninter.net Thu Oct 3 15:41:42 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 15:41:42 -0000 Subject: obstruction of justice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44873 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "brainattic" wrote: > > > According to the Lexicon, Riddle murdered his father's family > during the summer vacation before his seventh year. Why wasn't > he caught by the Ministry for violating the Decree for the > Restriction of Underage Wizardry?<< > >> Also, since they seem to be able to pinpoint your exact > location and what kind of spell you did, shouldn't they have > known that he perfomed the Avada Kedavra Curse? << > > They don't seem to have known that Frank Bryce was killed by > magic, either. (We know he was, because he came out of > Voldemort's wand). In fact, Dumbledore says that the Ministry > paid little attention to Frank's disappearance even after they were > told it might be connected to Voldemort. I have to again ask you. Where do you see that Voldemort killed his Father with the Avada Kedavra? I am still under the impression that they were killed because of looking at the basilisk??? Julie From ronib at mindspring.com Thu Oct 3 15:57:21 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 15:57:21 -0000 Subject: obstruction of justice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44874 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "brainattic" wrote: > >Why wasn't he caught by the Ministry for violating the Decree for > >the Restriction of Underage Wizardry? Also, since they seem to be > >able to pinpoint your exact > location and what kind of spell you > >did, shouldn't they have known > that he perfomed the Avada Kedavra > >Curse? > > I guess I should say you have me extremely confused here. My > understanding was it was the basilisk which had killed Voldemort's > father and grandparents. Hense there was no mark on their bodies > etc. GOB p4. "the Riddles all appeared to be in perfect health -- > apart from the fact that they were all dead." I guess my point > here > is if it was indeed the basilisk, then where do you have the idea > that Voldemort performed the Avada Kedavra on his parents? If it > were indeed the basilisk, then perhaps that does not count as doing > magic. > > MrsBonsai Me: Ok, I'm gonna do my best L.O.O.N. immitation. There is no evidence (that I am aware of) that the Basilisk ever left Hogwarts. In fact, I would be very surprised if it did. Tom released it inside the castle as described in CoS, but after Hagrid was expelled, he closed the chamber again (presumably with the Basilisk inside so that it was there when he reopened the chamber again later through Ginny). (He explains to Harry inside the chamber that it would have been too dangerous to release it again, as Hagrid (the framed culprit) was gone.) Are you perhaps thinking of Nagini? She doesn't see to be a Basilisk, but rather just a very large snake. I have not read FB, but perhaps it describes what she is. Anyway, no one seems to die from meeting her eye, so I don't see how she could be a Basilisk. As for there being no damage to the bodies, if you will remember the spider Moody kills with AK in GoF, it did not seem wounded or marked in anyway, only dead. Harry even notices this and wonders if his parents, like the spider, were not harmed or "damaged" in any way except that their lifes were snuffed out. Anyway, that is my nitpicking view of it anyway. =) Veronica ----------------------------------------------------- A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -- Winston Churchill From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Thu Oct 3 19:14:14 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 20:14:14 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's patronus In-Reply-To: <189.f236d0c.2acd903d@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021003193632.00a06a10@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44875 At 08:21 03/10/02 -0400, Eloise wrote: >< tentatively, remembering that the last time they met, Richard had come over >all Hannibal Lecter and was offering her Chianti> That's all in the past. This evening's DVD movie was Stalker. :-) >I think we do see, at least at second hand, another Patonus: Hermione >describes how Dumbledore, 'whirled his wand at the Dementors. Shot silver >stuff at them.' >But she evidently didn't recognise the form it took (silver bees?). No, it's >not specifically called a Patronus, but what else could it be? (It's one of >JKR's typical introductions of something a little time before we realise it's >relevance.) Sorry, I had phrased myself badly. I hadn't forgotten that instance and I'd always assumed that this was a Patronus (same for the Lupin instance someone else (Richelle?) mentioned). Of course, the fact that neither Lupin or Dumbledore used the word "Patronus" (or at least we/Harry didn't hear them say it) was of course for the benefit of us readers, so that when Lupin gives Harry the extra lesson, it's all fresh. In some respects, this is just yet another one of JKR's little continuity foreshadowings, of dropping something in but saving the explanation for later. What I had meant to say was that the *form* of the Patronus was unidentified. If we'd had been given an idea, then we may have some grounds on which to determine what surprised Dumbledore about the form of Harry's. Until JKR gives us more details, I'm sticking with my "father-like" analogy. :-) Yes, I know someone suggested the Weasleys as a counter to the statement that "everyone's Patronus is unique", and right now I don't have an explanation, but I'm working on it. :-) Incidentally (and I'd meant to bring up this point last time), I wonder if there's a connection between the silveriness of the Patronus and the silveriness of what Lexicon Steve called the "messenger charm" on the site? When Dumbledore sent off the silvery "something" towards Hagrid's hut, was this another Patronus form? I have no doubt that JKR will let us know when she's good and ready. :-) > No need to be tentative. The Chianti's all gone. :-) >Isn't 'patronus' a second declension noun, rather than fifth? So the >nominative plural is 'patroni' (and the accusative is patronum, as in the >incantation, 'Expecto Patronum'). Yes, it is. I couldn't believe that I'd said what I said when I read it back earlier. A lesson for the future: don't make LOONy points late at night, and if you do, *always* proof-read them. :-) Quite clearly, in the middle of writing that sentence, my fingers were typing faster than my brain was thinking, and I'd forgotten how I started it. "Patroni" is the plural of "Patronus"! >Eloise >Who's never yet threatened to eat a fellow list member, although now the >subject comes up, she is rather partial to plums, particularly if stewed with >a little sugar. ;-) If you'd have told me last month, I could have invited you over. We have a plum tree in the garden (one of the reasons my parents decided to buy this house years and years ago: it's what our surname means in English!) :-) and were looking for ways to use up the fruit. I've had so many plums in so many forms over the last few weeks that I couldn't touch another one - until next year... :-) -- Richard AKA GulPlum, UK, off to eat his dinner now he's eaten his words. :-) From the.gremlin at verizon.net Thu Oct 3 17:49:33 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 17:49:33 -0000 Subject: Book 5 - Will Snape Die? WAS:Book 5 - Will Hagrid Die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44876 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Risti" wrote: > While I do think that there is the possibility of Hagrid dying, I'm > afraid my thoughts tend to linger more towards someone else. I also > realize that as soon as I dare make this suggestion, I am going to > have an angry mob come and attack me. I heard from someone(but if > someone can contradict this, go ahead), that JKR or someone said that > it would be an 'unlikely fan of Harry's' or someone unexpected who > would be the unlucky person. When I read this, combined with one > other specific point from the book, my mind travels to one > person:Snape. > > Now, as I'm ducking the rotten produce all the Snape lovers must be > throwing at me right now, All I have are two apples, and I'm planning on eating those later. Otherwise, however, I'd be chucking them--Snape is my favorite. > > let me defend myself. First of all, it's > pretty obvious that he is the DE that Voldemort talks about > eliminating in the Graveyard scene. Beyond that, if the 'unlikely > fan' is true, Snape seems to be the one character who fits that > description. To me, despite his demeaner, some part of him can't > help but like, or at least want to protect, Harry. I think this has been debated before. I can't seem to find it on the Lexicon, but I am also attempting to do my homework for a class that's an hour away, so I don't have time to look for it. JKR said that Snape may fall in love in future books. I don't think he's going to fall in love in book 5, I think it would be more of a Book 6, Book 7 type thing. I can't imagine Snape having this long romance. If he does fall in love, that is. Yes, Snape is as good as dead at the moment, once Voldemort gets his hands in him, but I think that Snape is also smart enough to talk his way out f being killed. As for Snape being a fan of Harry's: I wouldn't call him a fan. He seems to have some sort of a liking, or at least a tolerance towards Harry, but I wouldn't call him a fan. I can't think of the word I want to use right now. In GoF, he seemed mostly concerned about Voldemort coming back, and not overly concerned about Harry surviving to the last task. Yet, he's always there to make sure Harry's head can fit through the door. I wouldn't call that a fan, I'd say that's teacher like. > > ~Risti, who is standing her ground, waiting for the mob to attack. I have a paper to write and homework to do, all in an hour, so I don't have time. You're getting off, this time. -Acire, who wants to know who would attend Snape's funeral. Dumbledore would, but would Harry? From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 18:02:20 2002 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 18:02:20 -0000 Subject: Snape the Half-blood? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44877 : > > Snape is of course perfectly capable of wand-waving, and I'm sure has > all due respect for it. Good call Amy, And don't forget, he turns right around and uses a "silly incantation" to save Harry's life during the Quiddtich match. From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 17:56:43 2002 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 17:56:43 -0000 Subject: Black and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44878 > With this questioning about Snape's blood, I wondered about something. > > I just believe that Black and Snape are the from the same cookie > cutter but are decorated with different icing. And they loath each > other for it. I agree. The entire problem between Snape and the Marauders seems to center around Black. Black and Snape are an awful lot alike. The scene at the end of GOF just reeks of it. I would be astonished if it turns out they are not from similar backgrounds and/or families that are known to each other. They are opposite sides of the same coin even to the 'cuteness' factor mentioned earlier. As far as the hair issue, I'll say this: I have a 12 year old son and if Severus Snape was the only kid at Hogwarts with greasy, unwashed hair I'll eat my wand! "Use Shampoo this time!" "I did!" "Let me smell your head." "Oh alright...grumble grumble" Parents? Am I way off base here? From sgarfio at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 18:40:08 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sheryl Garfio) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs. Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021003184008.53976.qmail@web21410.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44879 Richelle wrote: >Ron's > next comment was "Why is everything I own rubbish?" Quite sad, coming from > a fourteen year old. Considering he's felt that way at least since he was > eleven. Most families who are poor manage in such a way that the children > usually don't even know it until they're grown and look back. Then Karie replied: > I have to disagree. When you're poor, there's no hiding it--you > might not know it at age 4, but certainly long before you're 11 you > know there's no money. Plus, people like Malfoy sure don't ever let him forget it. Ron is in the most difficult position among the siblings. He is the youngest of 6 boys, so everything he has is as worn out as it's going to get. Then Ginny, being a girl, gets new stuff (at least her clothes and gender-specific toys). This can seem awfully unfair to an 11-to-14-year-old. He also gets the short end of the stick when it comes to attention. He's not a stand-out like Bill, Charlie, or Percy, nor is he a screw-up like the twins. He's just average, so it would be typical for his parents to just assume he's okay and not give him any special attention. When you have that many children, you're always putting out fires (perhaps literally in the twins' case) - attending to the child who is in need *right now*. In Molly's case, it doesn't even seem to matter if the child in need is not hers - Harry's problems are as urgent to her as any of her own children's problems. After all, what's one more child? She has a strong need to fix other people's problems, as long as their problems are not money-related. Ron's current problem is money-related, which she can't do anything about, so she dismisses it ("Fine, go naked"). This is the one area where she is helpless, and I get the impression that her seemingly cold remarks to Ron stem from this helplessness. Still, Ron often defends his mother. On the train in PS/SS, he makes a comment about how she always forgets that he doesn't like corned beef, but quickly adds that she doesn't have much time. When he opens his Weasley sweater at Christmas, he complains that she always forgets that he hates maroon, but then quickly changes the subject to Harry's sweater, knowing that Harry has never had Christmas presents and that the sweater would be a big deal to him (thereby putting Molly in a good light for including Harry). He complains about *material* things, but whenever his complaints spill over onto his mother, he quickly excuses her. He seems to be trying very hard to love his mother in spite of her shortcomings: it's not *her* fault that everything is rubbish, but then whose fault is it? Large families can be very problematic in this respect. If they hadn't had so many children, there wouldn't be so many demands on Arthur's salary, and indeed Molly may have been able to contribute financially as well, and she would have more time to pay attention to each child... but there would be no Ron. I doubt any mother of many children wishes the younger ones hadn't been born because now they are poor. On the other hand, incidents like this do bother me as a parent. My husband comes from a large, poor family, and his mother can tell me details about every one of her 11 children. If my husband hated maroon, she would know that and she would *never* make him a maroon sweater. Why bother? If she's going to buy the wool and spend the time, then why not spend the same time and money knitting a sweater in each child's favorite color? The gift represents a commitment of time on Molly's part, but it comes up short. She sends sandwiches on the train, again an investment of time rather than money, but why not send something that none of the children dislikes? Of course, it could be that Ron is just determined to hate *everything* his mother does that stems from their poverty. But I would like to see Molly at least pay attention to little things she can do for each child that don't cost extra. These are the little things that enrich the lives of poor kids (indeed, *all* kids), and that they remember as adults - we never had anything, but Mom always knew my favorite color. Sherry - who is not sure whether her point was to defend Molly or to attack her... ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From kristilynn5 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 18:44:31 2002 From: kristilynn5 at yahoo.com (Kristi Smith) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Love Potions (WAS Thoughts on SHIPS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021003184431.55287.qmail@web40303.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44880 : Sydney wrote- > Stupid love, though -- the kind of self-absorbed, fantasizing, > hormonal thing one goes through at age 15 -- I think is going to > gone into in OoP. There's a bit of that with the Cho Chang crush, > of course, but if I have one Book V prediction it would be: love > potion hi-jinks. There's no way JKR would plug a magic artifact > TWICE in GoF without intending it to come back in a big way. Please excuse my ignorance, but I just finished reading GoF for the 6th time, and I cannot seem to put my finger on the "magic artefact". Please enlighten me! Thanks, Kristi (who is feeling kind of dumb right now!) Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rlundgren at gov.mb.ca Thu Oct 3 15:31:06 2002 From: rlundgren at gov.mb.ca (freya122000) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 15:31:06 -0000 Subject: The echo's from V's wand in GoF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44881 I know that a passage in GoF was re-edited in later additions of the book. One thing was not changed, the order in which Lily and James come out of the wand. By the way I have nothing to back this up, anyway: Perhaps the order is not wrong at all. Perhaps James did die after Lily. V stated that James put up quite a fight in the house. What if V "believing" James dead heads to finish off Lily and Harry. He AK's Lily and turns on Harry, and as his curse is rebounding he is hit from behind by a mortally wounded James. The rebounding curse killing James and V blasted to nothing. Just a thought. Freya From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Oct 3 19:18:59 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 19:18:59 -0000 Subject: Sirius, was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Ginny Weasley Quotient In-Reply-To: <16754371895.20021003115022@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44882 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Susanne wrote: > But Black's free hand had found Harry's throat > > "No," he hissed, "I've waited too long --" > > The fingers tightened, Harry choked, his glasses askew. > > Then he saw Hermione's foot swing out of nowhere. Black let go > of Harry with a grunt of pain; > ************** > > I realize Harry attacked Sirius first, and while Sirius is > emaciated from his Azkaban stay, he's still a full grown > adult and there are other way's to deal with someone "short and skinny and thirteen" besides choking them out. > I have to admit this scene has always disturbed me also. IMO, like you previously mentioned, I put it down to his years in Azkaban. I do believe it will take some time for Sirius to rebuild his life. He has a lot of remorse-self-recrimination to work through. IMO, the fact that Sirius could be reasoned with at all by Lupin is amazing- they must have had a pretty good relationship as students-given the condition Sirius was in-emotionally. bugaloo37-a "Sirius" fan From heidit at netbox.com Thu Oct 3 19:19:18 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 15:19:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: obstruction of justice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00cd01c26b11$de324e10$0201a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 44883 > -----Original Message----- > From: jastrangfeld [mailto:msbonsai at mninter.net] > > I have to again ask you. Where do you see that Voldemort killed his > Father with the Avada Kedavra? I am still under the impression that > they were killed because of looking at the basilisk??? > Weirdly enough, I was just about to reply to your first post on this subject. Now, *that* is certainly a brand new speculation - I don't think I've ever seen someone propose it before. I am curious why you thought (at least when you reached the end of that book and were familiar with the AK) that Voldemort had taken the Basilisk - a giant snake! - out of the castle dungeon in Scotland, traveled at least a hundred or so miles with it, either had it with him or hidden away while he was skulking around in broad daylight, and then brought it into the house without disturbing the furniture or leaving a trail of mud and dirt on the floor. Especially when we know that a wizard with a modicum of power can point a wand at someone, say two words, and kill that person. I'm not trying to disparage your conclusion here - I'm just trying to see how you came up with it, because I find it surprisingly intriguing. Heidi http://www.fictionalley.org Fanfic of all shapes, sizes and SHIPs From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 3 19:22:16 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 19:22:16 -0000 Subject: LOON - InterviewsRe: Book 5 - Will Snape Die? WAS:Book 5 - Will Hagrid Die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44884 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ats_fhc3" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Risti" wrote: I heard from someone(but if > > someone can contradict this, go ahead), that JKR or someone said > that > > it would be an 'unlikely fan of Harry's' or someone unexpected who > > would be the unlucky person. When I read this, combined with one > > other specific point from the book, my mind travels to one > > person:Snape. "Fan of Harry's" : not 'unlikely fan' >JKR said > that Snape may fall in love in future books. No. She asked hat woman would want Snape in love with her? when asked if Snape had ever been in love. For details on interviews, always be sure to check Aberforth's Goat. Eileen, who wants to be a L.O.O.N.E.E. (and can prove to Amanda that she can rattle off D.E. cells and categorize all 29 variations of Fourth!Man) From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Oct 3 19:30:50 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 12:30:50 -0700 Subject: Sirius, was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Ginny Weasley Quotient In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13256800660.20021003123050@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44885 Hi, Thursday, October 03, 2002, 12:18:59 PM, bugaloo37 wrote: > IMO, the > fact that Sirius could be reasoned with at all by Lupin is amazing- > they must have had a pretty good relationship as students-given the > condition Sirius was in-emotionally. And maybe Harry isn't quite as important to Sirius as we would like him to be. I mean, if everything we know about him is true, he must be feeling horribly guilty, but at this point he seems to be more concerned with revenge for James and Lily, bulldozing over anyone who stands in the way of this revenge, even Harry. I wonder if Sirius, Lupin and Peter came over to visit and had a relationship with little Harry. Has it been mentioned at all in the books? I'm not as observant as I would like to be and have only read the books a couple of times, so far. If I were Harry, I'm not sure I could be all that civil to Sirius, knowing he indirectly caused my parents deaths, and I've always wondered why Harry was immediately forgiving and gung-ho about living with Sirius. It just doesn't seem like a very "normal" kid reaction, but then, Harry isn't a "normal" kid. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From heidit at netbox.com Thu Oct 3 19:38:54 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 15:38:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The echo's from V's wand in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00ce01c26b14$9dcf6d50$0201a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 44886 > -----Original Message----- > From: freya122000 [mailto:rlundgren at gov.mb.ca] > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 11:31 AM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The echo's from V's wand in GoF > > > Real-To: "freya122000" > > I know that a passage in GoF was re-edited in later additions of the > book. One thing was not changed, the order in which Lily and James > come out of the wand. By the way I have nothing to back this up, > anyway: Perhaps the order is not wrong at all. Perhaps James did > die after Lily. V stated that James put up quite a fight in the > house. What if V "believing" James dead heads to finish off Lily and > Harry. He AK's Lily and turns on Harry, and as his curse is > rebounding he is hit from behind by a mortally wounded James. The > rebounding curse killing James and V blasted to nothing. Just a > thought. Freya > Yes, this was changed. You can see the original version, from a first printing, here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Graphics/Publications/ priori-original.gif You can see the version from the ninth printing here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Graphics/Publications/ priori-s.jpg The version from the ninth printing is the one that is in the printings of the paperback. If you want a bit of list history, I recommend clicking here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/messagesearch/6000?query=wan d%20order - read the posts entitled Wand Order. Heidi Not Officially The HPfGU Historian - That's Cindy From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Oct 3 19:46:06 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 12:46:06 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Black and Snape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10257716415.20021003124606@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44887 Hi, Thursday, October 03, 2002, 10:56:43 AM, melclaros wrote: > I have a 12 year old son and if Severus Snape > was the only kid at Hogwarts with greasy, unwashed hair I'll eat my > wand! "Use Shampoo this time!" "I did!" "Let me smell your head." I have the honor to be the head lice checker at my daughter's school, and let me tell you, you are safe . You don't have to eat your wand! I swear, there are kids who don't use shampoo for weeks :} Though Snape is an adult now... -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Oct 3 20:16:29 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 20:16:29 -0000 Subject: Sirius, was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Ginny Weasley Quotient In-Reply-To: <13256800660.20021003123050@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44888 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Susanne wrote: > >And maybe Harry isn't quite as important to Sirius as we > would like him to be. >I mean, if everything we know about him is true, he must be > feeling horribly guilty, but at this point he seems to be > more concerned with revenge for James and Lily, bulldozing > over anyone who stands in the way of this revenge, even > Harry. Now me: At that moment, when Sirius is trying to get to Peter, you are right- nothing is more important to Sirius. Do I condone this behaviour? No-but I can understand it. You said previously that you were basing your "gut feeling" on PoA-not on GoF. IMO, in GoF, Sirius is on his way to recovery. His concern for Harry is obvious all the way through book 4. Susanne said: > If I were Harry, I'm not sure I could be all that civil to > Sirius, knowing he indirectly caused my parents deaths, and > I've always wondered why Harry was immediately forgiving and > gung-ho about living with Sirius. Now me: Perhaps Harry's willingness to accept Sirius is based on Sirius' obvious remorse concerning the part he played in the Potters deaths. Let's face it-Harry has never had any real family life-other than his exposure to the Weasleys. He is ready to make some connection to his father through Sirius. IMO, here we have a boy hungry for any link to his father and a man eager to make amends to his best friend's son. When they are unable to make this connection, I was just as disappointed as they. When presented with the truth of the matter, Harry has had very little problem discerning worthiness in another person. His instincts led him to choose Ron as a best friend and IMO, he could not have chosen better. IMO, however, we always have to keep in mind that he is still a child-a child who has been presented with grown-up problems and has always managed, in the end, with a certain amount of guidance, to make the right decisions. I guess what I am trying to say is this: at this point, as long as Harry is willing to trust Sirius-so am I. After all, what do we the reader know that he doesn't? bugaloo37 From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Oct 3 20:33:35 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 13:33:35 -0700 Subject: Sirius, was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Ginny Weasley Quotient In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15160566151.20021003133335@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44889 Hi, Thursday, October 03, 2002, 1:16:29 PM, bugaloo37 wrote: > at this point, as long as > Harry is willing to trust Sirius-so am I. I know, I know, as I said, it comes down to an unexplainable gut feeling . I'm probably one of the few adult readers, who is more focused on the trio and hasn't fallen for the charms of Lupin, Sirius and/or Snape ;) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From sgarfio at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 19:52:45 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sheryl Garfio) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 12:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magic detection/Magical Births (was Magic in Hols) In-Reply-To: <160.14f0ecda.2acde980@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021003195245.23273.qmail@web21404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44890 It makes sense to have the Dursley house under special surveillance to protect Harry. But doesn't that mean that the house would have been under surveillance since Harry's arrival? Surely the MoM couldn't just assume that Harry would be all right with the Dursleys. Voldemort and the DEs killed a *lot* of Muggles, so there would be no reason to believe Harry was safe just because he was among Muggles, especially so soon after Voldemort's disappearance. So if the house was being watched throughout Harry's childhood, then there must have been a way to identify *who* was doing the magic, right? They couldn't very well send somebody to save Harry from the DEs every time Harry got scared of Dudley and accidentally performed some magic. Even Mrs Figg would have tired of that pretty quickly. If they can't tell who's doing the magic, the only other way to tell if Harry is in trouble would be to identify a harmful curse in progress - at which point it would be too late. Okay, so then why didn't they know Harry wasn't responsible for the pudding incident? I would think they would have sent in the Wizard SWAT team instead of a nasty-gram, because magic was performed on Privet Drive by someone *other than Harry*. Even more alarming, this happens soon after Voldemort has shown himself, so they now have proof that he's not dead *and* that he's still after Harry. It also makes sense that Dobby tipped them off to frame Harry and get him expelled, since his goal was to keep Harry from returning to Hogwarts. But Dobby doesn't tip them off when Harry blows up his aunt, and they know about that. So what's the deal? Is this a mistake, or is there some pattern I'm missing? Of course, there are 3 more books coming, perhaps all will be explained. In any case, I have some serious doubts about Cornelius Fudge anyway. Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From msbonsai at mninter.net Thu Oct 3 19:53:42 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 19:53:42 -0000 Subject: Basilisk (was: obstruction of justice) In-Reply-To: <00cd01c26b11$de324e10$0201a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44891 that Voldemort had taken the > Basilisk - a giant snake! - out of the castle dungeon in Scotland, > traveled at least a hundred or so miles with it, either had it with him > or hidden away while he was skulking around in broad daylight, and then > brought it into the house without disturbing the furniture or leaving a > trail of mud and dirt on the floor. Especially when we know that a > wizard with a modicum of power can point a wand at someone, say two > words, and kill that person. **** I suppose I should say that I do not believe that there can be only one basilisk at a time, although perhaps this is a possibility. I stated in another post (I'm sorry my posts come back so slow, I've been lurking here for quite some time so now everything goes very slowly to post as I finally decided to post :o) ) that I believe that Nagini could also be a basilisk. I also believe that the basilisk do not kill unless they want to. Otherwise, why would Tom have to tell the basilisk to kill Harry in the chamber? The thing is out for so much blood, you would think just releasing it would be enough. I also think that reading GoF made it seem more apparent to me that this is how it happened. In the American version, p4. "The doctors did note (as though determined to find something wrong with the bodies) that each of the Riddles had a look of terror upon his or her face 00 b ut as the frustrated police said, whoever heard of three people being frightened to death?" I realize that Nagini was needed for the venom to help keep Voldemort growing stronger, but I just have this weird impression, and I'm not sure why. I can be completely wrong. But I do not believe it ever states that he specifically used the Avada Kedavra curse. It does say that he killed his father, just not how. From everything I had read, when I read that scene, where it said they were all found in the drawing room there. Hmm, my impression, and it's been a bit since I read the books last (I've read through them a few times now), has been that the basilisk can travel through pipes and other passageways. Is it not possible to take it through the sewers? I just came away with the impression he had used the basilisk. Julie - always up for a good debate on the issue :o) > > I'm not trying to disparage your conclusion here - I'm just trying to > see how you came up with it, because I find it surprisingly intriguing. > > Heidi > http://www.fictionalley.org > Fanfic of all shapes, sizes and SHIPs From msbonsai at mninter.net Thu Oct 3 19:26:57 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 19:26:57 -0000 Subject: Basilisk (was: obstruction of justice) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44892 > There is no evidence (that I am aware of) that the Basilisk ever left > Hogwarts. but after Hagrid was > expelled, he closed the chamber again (He explains to Harry inside the chamber that it > would have been too dangerous to release it again, as Hagrid (the > framed culprit) was gone.) **** See, I still believe he could have brought the basilisk with him out of the school. See below as well :o) **** > Are you perhaps thinking of Nagini? She doesn't see to be a Basilisk, > but rather just a very large snake. Veronica **** As for Nagini, as I recall, Voldemort would not allow Nagini to kill as she wanted to do. I would think almost, that the Basilisk can control wether it wants to kill or not. When it ran through the school, it definately had killing on it's mind, and I'm not sure how to explain why I think this, but I really think that it has some control over whether it can kill or not. Julie From sydpad at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 19:46:06 2002 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 19:46:06 -0000 Subject: Love Potions (WAS Thoughts on SHIPS) In-Reply-To: <20021003184431.55287.qmail@web40303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44893 K. wrote: > Please excuse my ignorance, but I just finished reading GoF for the 6th time, and I cannot seem to put my finger on the "magic artefact". Please enlighten me! > Whoops! Sorry, I should have given the citations :) By 'artifact' I just meant the potions themselves, which come up: -- early on (sorry, I haven't my books with me), Mrs. Weasley tells Hermionie and Ginny about a love potion she made when she was at school (much giggling), and -- during the Krum scandal, Pansy Parkinson is quoted in the Prophet as saying Hermionie would be well up to making a love potion; Skeeter adds that they are, "of course, illegal at Hogwarts". Sorry! -- Sydney, who's feeling kind of spaced-out right now... From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 3 20:48:47 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 20:48:47 -0000 Subject: Black and Snape (and James) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44894 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "melclaros" wrote: > > With this questioning about Snape's blood, I wondered about > something. > > > > > I just believe that Black and Snape are the from the same cookie > > cutter but are decorated with different icing. And they loath each > > other for it. > > I agree. The entire problem between Snape and the Marauders seems to > center around Black. I don't think that's true, actually. The problem between Snape and the Marauders seems to center around James. Snape's hatred for James is emphasized throughout PS/SS; it's cited as the main reason for his instant hatred of Harry; Snape takes every opportunity to insult James, even all these years after James' death. In PoA, when Lupin is giving his expository speech, he says that Snape hated all the Marauders, but particularly James. It seems that Sirius (and Lupin, and Peter) got dragged into it mainly as James' friends. If the Snape-Sirius hatred seems pre-eminent now, it's because a) the Prank exacerbated it; and b) Sirius is still around to keep up his side of the feud, while James isn't. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From psychomaverick at hotmail.com Thu Oct 3 20:35:51 2002 From: psychomaverick at hotmail.com (psychodudeneo) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 20:35:51 -0000 Subject: Peeves' function in the story In-Reply-To: <031b01c26af3$66e0f050$0500a8c0@domain316.local> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44895 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jai Marie" wrote: > It's common "ghost hunter" theory that poltergeists aren't really ghosts at all, but a form of energy that manifests itself in rattling doors, cups flying off shelves, exploding things, etc. That's why you hear about poltergeists often in households with volatile adolescents or other emotionally charged situations. That's probably why Nick says Peeves isn't really a ghost, but that still could explain Anglia's theory.> Keep in mind that Peeves is at Hogwarts, a castle full of magical teenagers. It could be that Peeves is the physical manifestation of the combined angst and built-up energy of every teenage witch and wizard at the school. From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 20:53:18 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 13:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Triggers (was Sirius, which was The Ginny Weasley Quotient) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021003205318.92648.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44896 bugaloo37 wrote: > I realize Harry attacked Sirius first, and while Sirius is emaciated from his Azkaban stay, he's still a full grown adult and there are other way's to deal with someone "short and skinny and thirteen" besides choking them out. > I have to admit this scene has always disturbed me also. IMO, like you previously mentioned, I put it down to his years in Azkaban. I believe it was not only the years in Azkaban, but the stress of being on the run as well. (And living as a dog and eating rats.) That said, I don't think that, even though he's still on the run, Sirius is unstable now (as Harry ends his fourth year, that is). I do believe, however, that various characters have hair-triggers about some issues, and that someone who is inherently good can do something stupid on the spur of the moment that could have dire consequences. Sirius' trigger, for instance, would probably be Wormtail. He almost killed him once, for what he did to the Potters. I believe that if he confronted his former friend again, especially after what Wormtail put Harry through on the evening of the third task, he would not care about the possibility of returning to Azkaban (although the Ministry would have to be pretty heartless to send someone to prison for killing the right-hand-man of Voldemort). Harry's trigger has long proven to be anyone talking about his parents in less than glowing terms. He blew up Aunt Marge for calling his father a good-for-nothing unemployed bum, and he screamed at Snape for the same reason. However, judging from the incident on the Hogwarts Express at the end of GoF, anyone talking about Cedric could trigger his wrath in the future. (Harry obviously believes VERY strongly in not speaking ill of the dead, especially if they could be considered martyrs.) Ron, OTOH, has shown that Hermione is his sore point. When his wand was broken and Malfoy insulted Hermione, he wound up spewing slugs. Hermione seems to be the most level-headed (other than Remus, ironically), her slapping Malfoy notwithstanding (she was sleep-deprived at the time). She seems most worked-up about elves these days. It might actually be somewhat funny if she did something rash on behalf of an elf. Ginny's trigger in her first year was Harry, as in the way she jumped all over Malfoy on Harry's behalf in Flourish and Blotts. Now that she's older, that may have changed, however. Hagrid's trigger has always been anyone insulting Dumbledore. He scares the daylights out of Karkaroff when the former Death Eater makes this mistake. And Snape's trigger was Sirius Black (who almost killed him when they were younger) but hopefully he'll be outgrowing that if they're going to be working on the same side. I just get the impression that, like Peter Pettigrew coming from among the Potters' circle of friends, some trouble may come from someone close to Harry (or even Harry himself) because of one of these "triggers." Not a betrayal so much as a spur-of-the-moment reaction that produces a very bad result... --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Oct 3 21:05:22 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 16:05:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Patronus/ Mrs. Weasley/ Black and Snape References: Message-ID: <013501c26b20$b0491420$539ccdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44897 Marina writes: > This may be excessively nitpicky of me, but I must point out that if > the Patronus looks like the caster's father, then it's not "unique > to the wizard who conjures it" -- all the Weasley kids would have > the same Patronus, for example. Well, that all depends. Suppose for a moment that the Patronus appears as your father from a specific time in the past, when he was particularly protective. Bill, for example, may remember his father twenty years ago protecting him from something as a child. Ginny, on the other hand, may remember her father jumping Lucius Malfoy at Flourish & Blotts. Same father, but still unique to the wizard conjuring because he's changed so much over twenty years, I'm sure. Still, it could also take the form of someone or something you have been protected by in the past. Which could perhaps mean that James had specifically taken the stag form to protect Harry at some time. But then I'm meandering off topic, I suppose! GulPlum/Richard writes: > What I had meant to say was that the *form* of the Patronus was > unidentified. If we'd had been given an idea, then we may have some grounds > on which to determine what surprised Dumbledore about the form of Harry's. > Until JKR gives us more details, I'm sticking with my "father-like" > analogy. :-) Yes, I know someone suggested the Weasleys as a counter to the > statement that "everyone's Patronus is unique", and right now I don't have > an explanation, but I'm working on it. :-) Well, there's one above for you to start on. :) Second, as for Dumbledore's silver thing shooting from the wand, it could be a patronus, or something else? Lupin does say "There are--certain *defenses* one can use." Emphasis added, as defenses is plural implying there's more than one way to skin a cat, or chase off a dementor. :) Sherry (who wasn't sure if she was defending or attacking Molly) :) writes: > from their poverty. But I would like to see Molly at least pay attention to > little things she can do for each child that don't cost extra. These are the > little things that enrich the lives of poor kids (indeed, *all* kids), and that > they remember as adults - we never had anything, but Mom always knew my > favorite color. That's another thing that always bothered me. Ron clearly hates maroon. Yet he gets a maroon sweater every year. Harry, on the other hand, gets something different every year. Once it's green, one year it's red with a gold lion, and then he even gets one with a dragon after the first task. She takes extra effort to make Harry's "special." Sure, he only gets a tissue or toothpick from the Dursleys, but what else does Ron get? Not much either. Harry finally gives him a present in GoF, Hermione generally gives them both something, but that's about it. Why not at least try to make the sweater a color he'll like? bugaloo37 writes: > I think you are right on target. Their tempers are similar. IMO, > the loathing they have for each other must be based on something > deeper than that childhood prank- but of course, I could be wrong. > Childhood hurts can run very deep. And when one has a tendency > to "hold" onto resentments-its easy to keep the hurt fresh in your > mind. Childhood prank? It was practically attempted murder. They were sixteen. If it hadn't been for James and Snape had been killed, by Muggle law Sirius could have been tried for manslaughter as an adult. I think there's something further back that fuels this hatred, something pre-Hogwarts even. Just can't put my finger on it. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Oct 3 21:06:54 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 21:06:54 -0000 Subject: Black and Snape (and James) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44898 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marinafrants" wrote: > I don't think that's true, actually. The problem between Snape and > the Marauders seems to center around James. Snape's hatred for James > is emphasized throughout PS/SS; it's cited as the main reason for his > instant hatred of Harry; Snape takes every opportunity to insult > James, even all these years after James' death. And why is that-just because James was a star athlete and a popular student? I just simply cannot equate childhood envy with the amount of venom that Snape has poured out on Harry's head. I have read all the posts concerning this issue and I still think something is missing. I know there are still things in my childhood that I have yet to resolve- I imagine most people still have lingering issues. But it would never occur to me to take it out on a child. IMO, if we could solve the mystery of Snape's hostility, we could figure him out. bugaloo37 From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 21:15:37 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Basilisk (was: obstruction of justice) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021003211537.52042.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44899 jastrangfeld wrote: I suppose I should say that I do not believe that there can be only one basilisk at a time, although perhaps this is a possibility. I stated in another post (I'm sorry my posts come back so slow, I've been lurking here for quite some time so now everything goes very slowly to post as I finally decided to post :o) ) that I believe that Nagini could also be a basilisk. I also believe that the basilisk do not kill unless they want to. Otherwise, why would Tom have to tell the basilisk to kill Harry in the chamber? Because there are two ways a basilisk kills: by someone looking in its eyes (a rather passive method) and by biting someone with those venomous fangs (the active method). It's probably accustomed to killing passively, not having to do much of anything. It's not used to acting. The creature isn't depicted as being very bright by JKR; when Harry was very studiously concentrating on not looking at the basilisk, Riddle realized that the creature was going to have to kill Harry by biting him, and told it to do just that. It didn't realize, it seems, that Harry wasn't looking at it, so he wasn't going to die that way. One does wonder why Harry didn't try to give it a counter-order, as he is also a Parselmouth and the snake conjured by Malfoy immediately obeyed him when he started giving it orders. As for the other issues you raised, I don't believe Nagini is a basilisk as Frank Bryce would have died from looking at Nagini in the face, and he does not. Wormtail would also have been in danger of death this way. No, a basilisk does not need to be told to kill when it's the passive kind of killing. It just happens. Look at the way Moaning Myrtle describes her death. There can, of course, be any number of basilisks in the world at any given time, but because of the difficulty of getting the creature to Little Hangleton and removing the evidence of its existence afterward, it seems highly unlikely that Riddle killed his father and grandparents this way. Moreover, the pointed descriptions of his family members in death, shocked and unmarked and perfectly healthy, is echoed very clearly in the descriptions both of the spider killed by Crouch/Moody in DADA class and of the dead Cedric in the graveyard. JKR builds up to Cedric's death very effectively; first we hear of humans who have died this way, although we don't know it yet, then we get to see the curse being cast, although on a spider, and finally, Harry is (and we are) confronted with the casual, quick murder of Cedric.The very ease with which it seems to be done is part of the horror. Although it is, in theory, possible to create a basilisk if you just have the patience to go through the steps, I doubt that Riddle created another one, in addition to the one that had been living in the chamber for a thousand years. It was hard enough for Hagrid to find a private place to breed giant spiders; for Riddle to have nurtured a basilisk and then taken it to Little Hangleton to kill his parents was supremely unnecessary. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Oct 3 21:24:57 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 21:24:57 -0000 Subject: Harry's Patronus/ Mrs. Weasley/ Black and Snape In-Reply-To: <013501c26b20$b0491420$539ccdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44900 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > Childhood prank? It was practically attempted murder. They were sixteen. If it hadn't been for James and Snape had been killed, by Muggle law Sirius could have been tried for manslaughter as an adult. I think there's something further back that fuels this hatred, something pre-Hogwarts even. Just can't put my finger on it. > I agree that the use of the phrase "childhood prank" was inadequate. Perhaps the term, werewolf incident, would be better. I apologize. However, given from what you said above, we do agree that something occured between Sirius and Snape pre-Hogwarts. IMO, I am also begining to contemplate a connection between Snape and James prior to Hogwarts. Three more books to fill in the gaps!! bugaloo37 From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 3 21:33:20 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 21:33:20 -0000 Subject: Black and Snape (and James) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44901 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marinafrants" wrote: > > I don't think that's true, actually. The problem between Snape and > > the Marauders seems to center around James. Snape's hatred for > James > > is emphasized throughout PS/SS; it's cited as the main reason for > his > > instant hatred of Harry; Snape takes every opportunity to insult > > James, even all these years after James' death. > > And why is that-just because James was a star athlete and a popular > student? I just simply cannot equate childhood envy with the amount > of venom that Snape has poured out on Harry's head. Oh, yes, I'm sure there's more to Snape's hatred of James than that. But it's still hatred of James first, hatred of Sirius and the others next. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From ronib at mindspring.com Thu Oct 3 21:13:29 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 21:13:29 -0000 Subject: Harry's Patronus/ Mrs. Weasley/ Black and Snape In-Reply-To: <013501c26b20$b0491420$539ccdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44902 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > That's another thing that always bothered me. Ron clearly hates > maroon. Yet he gets a maroon sweater every year. Harry, on the > other hand, gets something different every year. Once it's green, > one year it's red with a gold lion, and then he even gets one with > a dragon after the first task. She takes extra effort to make > Harry's "special." Sure, he only gets a tissue or toothpick from > the Dursleys, but what else does Ron get? Not much > either. Harry finally gives him a present in GoF, Hermione > generally gives them both something, but that's about it. Why not > at least try to make the sweater a color he'll like? (Oh, please don't hex me for chattering in the wrong place!) Ok, in Molly's defense, does Ron ever *tell* her he doesn't like maroon. Perhaps she is slaving away under the delusion he *likes* maroon. For countless years, my mother made me from-scratch red velvet birthday cakes with cream cheese icing--until i finally screwed up the courage to tell her I hated red-velvet cake and cream cheese icing. Not because she ignored me, but because I was always polite and thanked her sweetly for the kind gesture (silently wishing for a plain cake from the grocery store). Veronica From rlundgren at gov.mb.ca Thu Oct 3 21:14:05 2002 From: rlundgren at gov.mb.ca (freya122000) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 21:14:05 -0000 Subject: Molly Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44903 I don't see Molly as some horrible parent. The go naked comment was a reaction to Ron saying he wouldn't wear the second hand one. I'm sure she is just as frustrated that she cannot provide brand new things for each of her children and she must be tired of having to state over and over the obviouse, lack of funds. We see her being nice to Harry and I don't find that out of sorts. I think she feels very sorry for poor no family Harry. She tries to mother him in a way. That does not mean she is taking away from her own chilern to do so. We never see the house without Harry being there so there is no way for us to see what a day in the life of the Weasley clan is like. And just as Ron is jealous of Harry, lets not forget Harry is just as jealous of Ron and his family. Freya From rlundgren at gov.mb.ca Thu Oct 3 21:22:41 2002 From: rlundgren at gov.mb.ca (freya122000) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 21:22:41 -0000 Subject: Black and Snape and hate Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44904 I agree, what we are seeing between Black and Snape is deep long lasting hate. I'll even toss in the James card and say that all three come from old wizarding familys. This hate between the three of them started before school and followed them to school and beyond. Freya From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 3 21:37:51 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 21:37:51 -0000 Subject: Black and Snape (and James) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44905 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marinafrants" wrote: > Oh, yes, I'm sure there's more to Snape's hatred of James than that. > But it's still hatred of James first, hatred of Sirius and the others > next. Marina, what evidence is there in the books that it's hartred of James first and foremost? I thought we hear about his hate for James more b/c Hary is James's son, but I wasn't aware of specific evidence that James was the #1 enemy. Eileen, waiting for a reply from the great Snape expert herself From nplyon at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 21:43:25 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: {FILK} Potions Man Message-ID: <20021003214325.34039.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44906 (To the tune of "Piano Man" by Billy Joel.) Dedicated to all the Snape lovers. [The setting: The Potions classroom in the dungeon. A huge, black grand piano is wheeled into the room, Draco sitting on the bench. Pansy Parkinson sits on top of the piano, brandishing a harmonica. The candles go out, leaving only an iron chandelier shining directly down on the piano and its occupants. Draco begins to play and sing with Pansy accompanying him on the harmonica.] At two o'clock every weekday The Hogwarts students shuffle in For their double length class of potions And the masters insidious grin You say, "Potter that's ten points from Gryffindor For your rebellious show of cheek Don't you do it again. Seems you will not attain The adulation that you seek." La la la diddy da La da diddy da da Make us a brew you're the potions man Teach us to brew glory Well we'd so like to see how you stopper death We're ready and willing quarry That Neville Longbottom is so hopeless Melted five cauldrons this week You fill him with strife, threaten his pet toad's life I admire how you torture the meek He says, "Snape threatened to kill my poor Trevor" As he struggled to get his brew right "Well, I can't afford to make any mistakes His threat has me filled with such fright." Oh la la la diddy da La da diddy da da Well you always favor your Slytherins Awarding us point after point You harass that old Potter, by threatening slaughter Or expulsion from this old joint And that know-it-all Hermione Granger Has received a great share of your wrath That's what she gets for having the gall to think She's good enough to walk our same path (Piano solo, Draco's normally slicked-back hair flying from side to side as he pounds at the ebony and ivory) Make us a brew you're the potions man Teach us to brew glory Well we'd so like to see how you stopper death We're ready and willing quarry There is no foolish wand waving in your class And all must listen attentively For there's not one sole chant and we never incant So you inform us disdainfully And the potions are really quite powerful And if we add powdered asphodel And if we're really good and then add some wormwood We'll create Living Death, so stir well Oh la la la diddy da La da diddy da da Make us a brew you're the potions man Teach us to brew glory Well we'd so like to see how you stopper death We're ready and willing quarry [As the music fades out, Draco and Pansy smirk and Snape smiles nastily and announces, "Fifty points to Slytherin."] __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 3 21:57:24 2002 From: speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com (frankielee242) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 21:57:24 -0000 Subject: Black and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44907 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > > > > I just believe that Black and Snape are the from the same cookie > > cutter but are decorated with different icing. And they loath each > > other for it. > > Just the impression I had. bugaloo37 wrote: > I think you are right on target. Their tempers are similar. IMO, > the loathing they have for each other must be based on something > deeper than that childhood prank- but of course, I could be wrong. > Childhood hurts can run very deep. And when one has a tendency > to "hold" onto resentments-its easy to keep the hurt fresh in your > mind. >>>snip<<< Let's try this on for size. I've been reading everyone's posts on Black and Snape and had a thought. While there is absolutely NO supporting canon and it's just wild extrapolation... What if Black and Snape grew up more or less together, but not of their own volition? What if their parents (muggle, wizarding or mixed) dumped them together at the same baby sitter's house (muggle, wizarding or mixed) day after day until they were old enough to go to Hogwarts? Picture, if you will, our gentlemen as two four year old boys, forced to spend several hours every week together because their mothers (muggle, wizarding or mixed) were friends. When checked on, our boys would smile and wave, but the second they're alone, they trade snide remarks and fight tooth and nail as quietly as possible to avoid notice. Example: Black dumps a jar or blue paint over Snape's drawing for snapping all of Black's crayons in half because Black kicked him when Snape shoved him into the radiator for ripping his shirt as they fought over the... you get the point. Tiny Black: Um, I tripped over the footstool and landed on Sev'rus, so that's why he's got a black eye. *blinks innocently* Tiny Snape: Yeah, and I was trying to break a toffee in half with the fireplace shovel, but I missed and that's how Sirius got a lump on his head. *glares at Black* Picture them a few years older and still stuck in the same situation. After being dragged on a shopping trip through Diagon Alley, Black has stolen a funny but gorey comic book and Snape has stolen a book of hexes with gorey illustrations. And then they fight over who's more in the wrong. Day one at Hogwarts, they get sorted into the two houses with the fiercest rivalry and subsequently devote a lot of time and energy into making each other's lives miserable. Sorry. It was just a funny mental image. Please don't shoot-- I know there's really no canon whatsoever for any of this. Or for this... What if they're somehow related? Cousins? Step-brothers? Worse yet, what if one of them is the result of an extramarital affair and they're half-brothers?! =P Sorry again. I'm slap-happy and giggling madly to myself. Frankie, who would like to thank everyone on HPfGU for being the bright spot in a tempest of an afternoon. From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 3 22:32:12 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 22:32:12 -0000 Subject: Black and Snape (and James) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44908 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "lucky_kari" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marinafrants" wrote: > > > Oh, yes, I'm sure there's more to Snape's hatred of James than that. > > But it's still hatred of James first, hatred of Sirius and the others > > next. > > Marina, what evidence is there in the books that it's hartred of James > first and foremost? I thought we hear about his hate for James more > b/c Hary is James's son, but I wasn't aware of specific evidence that > James was the #1 enemy. Alas, I am stuck at work, without my copy of PoA, so I can't give an exact quote. However, in the Shrieking Shack when Lupin talks about Snape and the Marauders, ISTR that he specifically says that while Snape was hostile to all the Marauders, he particularly hated James. Sirius, who's standing right there, doesn't dispute this. And the fact that Snape's hatred was strong enough to spill over onto James' son suggests a particular intensity to me. Admittedly, we have no basis for comparison here, since apparently none of the other Marauders were considerate enough to have children for Snape to abuse. :-) Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Oct 3 22:31:28 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 22:31:28 -0000 Subject: Triggers (was Sirius, which was The Ginny Weasley Quotient) In-Reply-To: <20021003205318.92648.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44909 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barb P wrote: >>I do believe, however, that various characters have hair-triggers about some issues, and that someone who is inherently good can do something stupid on the spur of the moment that could have dire consequences. Hermione seems to be the most level-headed (other than Remus, ironically), her slapping Malfoy notwithstanding (she was sleep-deprived at the time). << I have noticed that while some people think it's sexist that female characters like Hermione, McGonagall and Ginny often freeze or dissolve in tears when they feel threatened, nobody's said it's sexist that JKR's male characters are often too ready to use their wands or fists. Pippin From sgarfio at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 21:48:49 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sheryl Garfio) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Patronus In-Reply-To: <013501c26b20$b0491420$539ccdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <20021003214849.49380.qmail@web21404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44910 Richelle writes: > Still, it could also take the form of > someone or something you have been protected by in the past. Which could > perhaps mean that James had specifically taken the stag form to protect > Harry at some time. Geez, you people won't let me get *any* work done today, will you? Of course, the fact that I am deep in the throes of Short-Timers' Disease doesn't help... I had started an earlier post on this topic, but didn't think I had enough to go on, and then got all caught up in Mrs Weasley. I also thought about the possibility that a wizard's Patronus takes the form of someone or something that had protected him in the past, particularly if that person or thing is now absent from the wizard's reality. Kind of like an intercessory prayer, where someone from far away provides protection. (BTW, I personally put intercessory prayer in the same category with magic, so don't worry that I'm about to go off on some religious tangent. I do think that there is *plenty* of religious symbolism in HP, though.) It would seem strange to me if a Patronus were to take the form of someone who is readily available, like most of the students' fathers are. Why would you summon a Patronus in the form of your father if your father himself is available to protect you? And what if your father is a wuss? As for Dumbledore's surprised reaction, what if it's more of an epiphany? I always assume that Dumbledore knows way more than he lets on. I suspect that he knows about James' ability to turn into a stag, or perhaps he merely *suspects* this, and Harry's Patronus confirms it for him, explaining his surprised expression. My other thought is that Dumbledore was expecting Lily, since she was the one who sacrificed herself for Harry. We do know that she protected Harry at the end of PS/SS without actually being there. But would she show up as herself, or as something else that represents her (surely a flower wouldn't be much of a defense)? Okay, I'm rambling now. I go back to work. Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From Malady579 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 4 00:07:13 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 00:07:13 -0000 Subject: Black and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44911 I originally wondered: >>>I just believe that Black and Snape are the from the same cookie cutter but are decorated with different icing. And they loath each other for it. Just the impression I had.<<<< Then bugaloo37 wrote: >>>?I think you are right on target. Their tempers are similar. IMO, the loathing they have for each other must be based on something deeper than that childhood prank- but of course, I could be wrong.<<<< So I reply in support: Thier tempers are quite similar. The sight of each other sparks thier passions to bubbles up quite quickly and fervently. [Sigh :) ] That sort of hair trigger does not happen from one event alone. Yes, Snape does hate James, but he is fiercely direct with Black. They have no patience for each other and butt heads beyond just simple misunderstandings and faulty intentions. They both want the other buried six feet under with cement. A bit off topic, but has Snape even said anything against Maurader Pettigrew? Seems Snape does not hold the prank or a grudge against him. Then again, Pettigrew was claimed to be "not in the league" of Black and James, and Snape does not seem the type to bother with those who can not keep up with him. Then Frankie added creatively: >Tiny Black: Um, I tripped over the footstool and landed on Sev'rus, so that's why he's got a black eye. *blinks innocently*<<< > >Tiny Snape: Yeah, and I was trying to break a toffee in half with the fireplace shovel, but I missed and that's how Sirius got a lump on his head. *glares at Black*<<< So I added smiling: That idea is absolutely adorable. And completely plausible. Melody Who hopes Richelle's house survived Lili. Hurricanes can be nasty little buggers. From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 4 00:12:01 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 00:12:01 -0000 Subject: Black and Snape (and James) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44912 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marinafrants" wrote: > Alas, I am stuck at work, without my copy of PoA, so I can't give an > exact quote. However, in the Shrieking Shack when Lupin talks about > Snape and the Marauders, ISTR that he specifically says that while > Snape was hostile to all the Marauders, he particularly hated James. > Sirius, who's standing right there, doesn't dispute this. OK, here it is as promised: PoA, US paperback edition, pg 357: Lupin: "We [Snape and the Marauders] were in the same year, you know, and we -- er -- didn't like each other very much. He especially disliked James." Admittedly, this may not be gospel. But Lupin is not stupid, and has no reason to lie about such a minor point, and Snape's hostility to James is repeatedly demonstrated throughout the books, so I'm willing to accept Lupin's statement as true unless shown otherwise. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Oct 4 00:30:11 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 17:30:11 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Molly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13874764495.20021003173011@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44913 Hi, Thursday, October 03, 2002, 2:14:05 PM, freya122000 wrote: > I don't see Molly as some horrible parent. The go naked comment was > a reaction to Ron saying he wouldn't wear the second hand one. That's true, but why did it have to be a *maroon* robe with *lace* trimmings? She must know that that's about the most undesirable combination she could come up with and I just can't believe that there wasn't anything else second hand around. And why not at least take the lace off? That wouldn't have been so hard. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Oct 4 01:25:40 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:25:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Weasley References: Message-ID: <00bc01c26b44$f53785c0$c89fcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44914 Veronica writes: > Ok, in Molly's defense, does Ron ever *tell* her he doesn't like > maroon. Perhaps she is slaving away under the delusion he *likes* > maroon. For countless years, my mother made me from-scratch red And Freya writes: > I don't see Molly as some horrible parent. The go naked comment was > a reaction to Ron saying he wouldn't wear the second hand one. I'm > sure she is just as frustrated that she cannot provide brand new > things for each of her children and she must be tired of having to > state over and over the obviouse, lack of funds. We see her being > nice to Harry and I don't find that out of sorts. I think she feels > very sorry for poor no family Harry. She tries to mother him in a > way. That does not mean she is taking away from her own chilern to > do so. Well, first of all, I'm not downing Molly. I love Molly. I love Molly's affection for Harry. I just think Ron needs a little TLC too sometimes. It is possible that Molly thinks he likes maroon, although that is not generally a boy's favorite color. However, why is it that Harry always gets a different sweater (with lovely designs usually) and Ron's is always the same? Wouldn't it be nice to have something different? Or couldn't she put a Gryffindor lion on Ron's (even maroon) like she did on Harry's? Susanne writes: > And why not at least take the lace off? > > That wouldn't have been so hard. Exactly. If Ron could use a spell for it, why couldn't Molly? She could probably have done a neater job. Come to think of it, if Dobby can magically shrink his sweater from Ron, why can't Molly or Arthur magically lengthen Ron's hand me downs? Or is there some reason why it shouldn't be done? Do they *want* their children growing up this way? Are they overcompensating for something? To make them as different as possible from others? Like the Malfoys? Am I making things up? > Melody > Who hopes Richelle's house survived Lili. Hurricanes can be nasty > little buggers. Ah, and I have survived unscathed. :) Winds are still howling, but nothing too major, considering. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Fri Oct 4 01:46:47 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 02:46:47 +0100 Subject: Men/Women interests (was Re: Sirius, was Re: Ginny Weasley Quotient) Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021004024642.0096ad70@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44915 At 13:33 03/10/02 -0700, Susanne wrote: >I'm probably one of the few adult readers, who is more >focused on the trio and hasn't fallen for the charms of >Lupin, Sirius and/or Snape ;) At the risk of sounding sexist, from my experience of HP fandom, you might want to change that to "... one of the few women ...". ;-) In all seriousness (and in defence of the above statement), in about 11 months presence in one online HP forum or another, I have found it interesting that in "favourite character" polls and similar discussions, most men seem to choose from the Trio + Hagrid + Dumbledore; most women go for Lupin, Sirius or Snape. Kids of either gender seem to choose from the Trio alone. Of course, I'm not saying there are no exceptions (personally, if I had to choose, I'd probably go for Lupin), so I've often wondered, though never asked aloud, whether it's because men generally seem not to go beyond the obvious, the broad strokes, while women seem to be more interested in hints and background characters? Or are women principally going for characters who might conform to or fulfill their sexual fantasies? I've noticed (not that I've ever consciously thought about it until this very moment) that there are no characters who might appeal to men's sexual fantasies (apart from the possible exception of Fleur, who is barely of legal age and thus out of frame for most "normal" 20+ men). I'm honestly curious about what people's views on the above are and why (beyond the usual literary reasons) we feel attracted to the characters who appeal to us. I'm not sure if I put my POV across very well or if it puts down or prejudges any segment of the readership, but I honestly don't mean it to. As for what any gay/lesbian readers might think, I just have NO idea, as I have yet to encounter any HP fan who has identified themselves as such! :-) From lupinesque at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 02:21:21 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 02:21:21 -0000 Subject: Harry's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44916 Richelle wrote: > > Anyway, when Harry asked Lupin what a patronus looked like he > says "Each one > > is unique to the wizard who conjure it." Well, obviously he's not > going to > > say "it'll look like your dad" to Harry, that would get him a bit > off task. Marina wrote: > This may be excessively nitpicky of me, but I must point out that if > the Patronus looks like the caster's father, then it's not "unique > to the wizard who conjures it" -- all the Weasley kids would have > the same Patronus, for example. Excessively nitpicky? Is there such a thing? That combination of adverb and adjective never passes the lips of a L.O.O.N. Anyhoo, without being nitpicky (on this occasion), I'm not getting why Lupin would know that Harry's Patronus is going to have any resemblance to his father. All we know about Patroni is that they are different for each person (unique not necessarily meaning that no two look alike--someone else out there may well have a stag) and are protector-spirits so are likely to be some kind of creature that is appropriately protective. They do not necessarily represent the caster's dad. What's your thinking behind this, Richelle? Amy Z From lupinesque at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 02:35:09 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 02:35:09 -0000 Subject: Harry's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44917 I wrote, to my embarrassment, > Anyhoo, without being nitpicky (on this occasion), I'm not getting > why Lupin would know that Harry's Patronus is going to have any > resemblance to his father. All we know about Patroni is that they > are different for each person (unique not necessarily meaning that no > two look alike--someone else out there may well have a stag) and are > protector-spirits so are likely to be some kind of creature that is > appropriately protective. They do not necessarily represent the > caster's dad. What's your thinking behind this, Richelle? Sorry, that's what I get for popping in mid-thread. I see where it came from. Ignore me and carry on, please. Amy Z From Malady579 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 4 03:03:18 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 03:03:18 -0000 Subject: Men/Women interests In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021004024642.0096ad70@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44918 Susanne originally wrote: >I'm probably one of the few adult readers, who is more focused on the trio and hasn't fallen for the charms of Lupin, Sirius and/or Snape ;) < GulPlum wondered while : >>I've noticed (not that I've ever consciously thought about it until this very moment) that there are no characters who might appeal to men's sexual fantasies (apart from the possible exception of Fleur, who is barely of legal age and thus out of frame for most "normal" 20+ men).<< Now me: I think you're closer to the truth than you think GulPlum. The reason we (the ladies of HPFGU) have crushes on the dark and dashing and older is because they are of legal age. I would love to be a fourteen year old girl and have a deep, deep crush on Harry (and thus Daniel Radcliffe), but reality sets in and I hear sirens in the background. It is just too ingrained in us as a culture to not like, dare I say lust, after anyone, even a fictional character, until they are of legal age in WW or in muggle. Part of the reason we read book is to suspend reality and shrink back in time to be a pal behind thier shoulders. When I read Harry Potter I can be Ginny and giggle and blush at Harry. Silly schoolgirl crushes are quite fun and exciting. :) But when I put the book down, I think of Hary as my little brother. A small boy that needs to be nurtured and loved as a little brother. Maybe that is the older sister side of me, but I have always been protective of my family. GulPlum, you are right in saying that there are too few "desirable" ladies for the male reading populace in Harry Potterland. Even Bill and Charlie don't have girlfriends. Narcissa might be a babe if she was not attached to the Malfoy image. Hmmm, there is Lily. Even with as little as y'all know about her, maybe she is close to a male fantasy? Though she is not presented that physical. Fleur is. She is drawn as a desirable creature. No other character other than Cho Chang is, and Cho is more schoolgirl than vixen. Hmmm, can't help you much there I guess. Seems JKR needs to write and sexy new female teacher to balance out her cast of sexy male characters. There is the DADA position open... Now watch her put old Mrs. Figg in there. :P But back to fictional crushes, I cannot, no matter how cute he is, see Harry as anything else but a boy that is about eleven years younger than me in the books at current writing. Though, come back to me when the series is at the end and Harry is eighteen. Then he might be in competition with his godfather for my attention. Melody From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Oct 4 03:22:20 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:22:20 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Men/Women interests (was Re: Sirius, was Re: Ginny Weasley Quotient) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021004024642.0096ad70@plum.cream.org> References: <4.2.0.58.20021004024642.0096ad70@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <285095172.20021003202220@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44919 Hi, Thursday, October 03, 2002, 6:46:47 PM, GulPlum wrote: > At the risk of sounding sexist, from my experience of HP fandom, you > might > want to change that to "... one of the few women ...". ;-) Yep, you are right . I come from a couple fandom where males are just about non-existent on the lists (at least, is they are there, they don't say anything). Malady579 wrote: > I think you're closer to the truth than you think GulPlum. The reason > we (the ladies of HPFGU) have crushes on the dark and dashing and > older is because they are of legal age. I guess HP is a "crushless" fandom for me. I'm there for the trio's friendship and interaction, and the fascinating WW, and the action/adventure. For crushes I have my husband and other fandoms with adult guys . Snape is definitely not on my crush list, personality wise, and Sirius isn't, either (I talked about my gut feeling about him in other posts) and Lupin doesn't light my fire, either, I guess. Maybe there just isn't enough there, canonwise, but then, the books concentrate on Harry mostly, and Ron and Hermione, which suits me just fine. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Oct 4 03:12:24 2002 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 22:12:24 -0500 Subject: The Ginny Weasley Quotient References: Message-ID: <03b001c26b53$dc5ff910$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 44920 Hi all -- Better late than never perhaps......my thoughts on some of the Ginny & shipping issues of late -- Pippin noted: <<<<<<<>>>>>> I would consider that more an "omission" than an "outright lie" as Hermione would say. If he lied to Ron though, he also lied to Hermione and virtually everyone else on that same point. And actually, if this is the incident I'm remembering, it's Hermione's feelings he's concerned about, not Ron's: ********************* "I can't remember all of it now, but they were plotting to kill ... someone." He'd teetered for a moment on the verge of saying 'me,' but couldn't bring himself to make Hermione look any more horrified than she already did. (GoF, Chapter 10) *********************** Judy had said: <<<<<<<[Ginny]asks how he managed to kill the Basilisk, then cries about the possibility of being expelled, but she never once asks if he is hurt or manages a stammering thank you, even after she is safe with her parents and absolved. Don't you find that the least bit odd?>>>>>>>>>> Pippin: <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>> L.O.O.N. point: ********************** ".... Hermione, however, stood alone by the door, waiting for them. There was a very embarrassed pause. Then, none of them looking at each other, they all said, "Thanks," and hurried off to get their plates." (PS, Chapter 10) *********************** > Judy had previously said: > > If she is the chatterbox Ron says she is, and brave enough to be sorted into Gryffindor, why not stammer, stumble and mumble her way through asking Harry to take her to the Yule Ball as Harry did Cho and Ron did Fleur? Even a Hufflepuff girl managed it. > > and Pippin responded: > > Because she was a third year. She couldn't invite *anyone* to the ball. It'd be pretty pushy to ask Harry or anyone else to invite > her to a function she wouldn't otherwise be entitled to attend. > > Judy responds: > JKR makes a point of mentioning that the Hufflepuff girl who asked Harry was also a THIRD YEAR Ch, 22 Pg 389 (American edition) and that she hadn't spoken a word to him in her life. Pippin goes on: <<<>>>>>>>>> Actually, Harry got teased because Ron was apparently present when said Hufflepuff girl asked Harry to the Ball (he was definitely present when the 5th year asked Harry a few days later). I strongly suspect if Ginny *had* worked up the courage to ask Harry to the Ball, she'd have done so in private, and there would have been no teasing of either of them because noone would have been privy to it. Pippin: <<<<<<<>>>>>> Fair enough. But, she had a plot purpose for giving us the wrong impression of Sirius. Not to say that she *can't* undo her heretofore skeletal development of Ginny, but I suppose my question is: if she does intend Ginny to be Harry's eventual love interest, why on earth has she kept Ginny so poorly-developed for the last 2 books? What's the *plot* point to this? She's certainly made no secret of Ron's burgeoning romantic interest in Hermione or of Ginny's crush on Harry? Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nplyon at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 03:42:29 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: {FILK} More than a Werewolf Message-ID: <20021004034229.3520.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44921 (To the tune of "More than a Woman" by the Bee Gees) Dedicated to all the ladies who want to marry Lupin. [Lupin takes the stage wearing a white leisure suit and a butterfly collar shirt open to the waist with a huge gold medallion hanging down on his chest. Sirius, Peter, and Snape stand behind him, similarly dressed, acting as his chorus. The lights dim and a disco ball spins as Lupin starts to sing in falsetto.] The world thinks it knows me so well They think I'm nothing but a beast They say I vicious, dangerous But they don't know me in the least I know all about Dark Arts I was friends with Harry's dad We hung out in the Shrieking Shack With Sirius but he became bad And it was Sirius who sold out James Which led to Lily's death as well Then Sirius went and he murdered Peter And now I'm a teacher at Hogwarts And though I have lost every one of my friends Here's my chance to prove that I'm More than a werewolf, more than a werewolf I am More than a werewolf, more than a werewolf I am I'll teach my students defense How to defeat boggarts and grindylows And teach Harry to cast His own Patronus very fast Snape he brewed my Wolfsbane potion It helped to ease my affliction But I should have known he would tell My secret to his Slytherins And now my secret's out so once again I'll have to pack my bags and leave But at least I learned my friend Sirius Is not the killer that he once seemed Now he's in hiding and I'm forced to leave here But one day I will prove I'm [Repeat chorus three times] More than a werewolf, more than a werewolf I am More than a werewolf, more than a werewolf I am ~Nicole, laughing at the thought of Snape in a leisure suit. Yeah, baby! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 00:28:39 2002 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 00:28:39 -0000 Subject: Book 5 - Will Hagrid Die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44922 "Risti" wrote: > it would be an 'unlikely fan of Harry's' or someone unexpected who > would be the unlucky person. When I read this, combined with one > other specific point from the book, my mind travels to one > person:Snape. > > This isn't a new idea, although the word "fan" is not really the right one here, I think her use of it is really just to throw people off IF in fact the doomed soul is Snape. It's obvious that Snape is obligated to protect Harry whether he likes it or not and it's fairly clear he'd go as far as need be to do so. As a Snape fan this terrifies me. I've thought Snape was the one JK was referring to since the first time I heard her tell this sad tale. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but it fits the Snape as classic anti-hero formula. Personally I think he's smart enough to finish of V, save Harry and the day and manage to walk out of the mess. Please! Melpomene Who'd have to be carried to the funeral. From dcyasser at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 02:48:13 2002 From: dcyasser at yahoo.com (dcyasser) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 02:48:13 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Weasley In-Reply-To: <00bc01c26b44$f53785c0$c89fcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44923 ---> Freya writes: > > > I don't see Molly as some horrible parent. The go naked comment was > > a reaction to Ron saying he wouldn't wear the second hand one. I'm > > sure she is just as frustrated that she cannot provide brand new > > things for each of her children and she must be tired of having to > > state over and over the obviouse, lack of funds. We see her being > > nice to Harry and I don't find that out of sorts. I think she feels > > very sorry for poor no family Harry. She tries to mother him in a > > way. That does not mean she is taking away from her own chilern to > > do so. > Ah, but I do think she is taking away, because when she appears at Hogwarts in GoF, she has moved beyond simply sharing with Harry what she gives to Ron. She (and Bill, too) are there entirely for Harry, and Ron doesn't even know about it. Since everyone is revealing their Weasley-like pedigree, I will add for the record that I am the sixth out of seven. I remember looking through my sister's clothes and picking out the things I couldn't wait to get handed down to me. And we often had "extra" kids around the house, adding to the mayhem, having meals, getting attention from my mom. However, she would never have shown up at my school, without my knowledge and/or OK, to stand in as surrogate parent for a classmate, while not showing all that much interest in how I was doing... I think this plays into Ron's psyche more than the money, the hand-me- downs, the maroon and the corned beef. In the hands of an expert manipulator, (and we do know some!) this could be construed as betrayal - Molly throwing over Ron in favor of famous Harry. - Dona who is having all of her siblings to her house this weekend. From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 05:16:05 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I Got Plenty of Brothers! [filk] Message-ID: <20021004051605.21359.qmail@web40302.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44924 I Got Plenty of Brothers! to the tune "I Got Plenty O' Nuttin' " from PORGY AND BESS http://www.broadwaymidi.com/cgi-bin/schlabo/dl.pl?PorgyAndBess-IGotPlentyONuttin Dedicated to Trish, because she's got plenty of brothers! Note: People from large families will know what I'm talking about with the bathroom reference... GINNY: Oh, I've got plenty of brothers, And brother, they're plenty for me! We got no room They hog the food I get no privacy Oh, folks with one or two children Lock the bath-a-room door We got no lock upon that door We can squeeze in 2 or 3...or 4 Tried to lock my bedroom door - does no good, you see Because the tricksters Fred and George - get in here easy Then they charm all my stuff - disappears with a "puff"- "THAT?S ENOUGH!" Oh, I've got plenty of brothers, and brother, they're plenty for me But I?d be sad If Mum and Dad Had stopped at 2 or 3 (Spoken) "I wouldn?t even be here!" Thank-you, Mum! Thank-you, Dad! Thank-you, Bros! Oh, I got plenty of brothers And brother, they?re plenty for me And though we?re poor, And I hear snores At night, like a downpour It?s nice to know I?ve so many Brothers who care about me There are some people in this big world Who have no family ...Harry Percy fusses over me - Ron is too busy Bill and Charlie think I?m too young - call me a baby Though they get on my nerves - I love them and I know they love me! Oh, I?ve got plenty of brothers And brother, they?re plenty for me I love my Bill My Charlie, too And I love my Percy (Spoken)"There?s no use complaining!" Love my Fred! Love my George! Love my Ron! ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 06:45:14 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 23:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thoughts on SHIPS Message-ID: <20021004064514.60230.qmail@web40306.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44925 Jessica: > I have to weigh in on this discussion of SHIPS and > their importance to the HP series. Nicole: Thank you very much for doing so! I thought your post was brilliant and I am sorry to snip any of it as I add my thoughts. I sincerely hope that everyone on the list read your post and, if they did not, I hope they will go back and read it now. Me: I even saved Jessica's post because it was *that* good! Even though we differ on some opinions, Jessica, there are some that are exactly the same! Jessica: > There seems to be a climate of dismissiveness toward > the development of romantic relationships amongst > the Hogwarts students -- specifically Harry, > Hermione, and Ron. The inference, it seems to me, is > that these types of relationships are trivial to the > overriding action of the books. I could not disagree > more. Indeed, I believe they will prove vital to the > battle against Voldemort, the development of the > plot, and the survival/redemption of many of the > series' characters. Nicole: I completely agree with you here. While I highly enjoy discussions of character motivation, symbolism, etc., I have found that there are very few discussions about romantic relationships and that when there are, they are differentiated from other posts and often not taken as seriously. I think this is very sad as I think that love is the most important thing in the world and I would venture to say that it is *the* central theme in this series. Me: And I'll even venture to say that love will be what ultimately destroys Voldemort, since he embodies the opposite of love and goodness. Jessica: > As much as one can?t consider the romantic pairing > of James and Lily Potter trivial, I don?t think it?s > fair for one to consider the pairings of Harry and > his contemporaries to be trivial. Don?t get me > wrong ? I?m not at all interested in the series > dissolving into some silly teen Harlequin. In fact, > it seems to me that the these pairings will have far > less to do with drippy romance, than with the > significance of two people finding they can > contribute something vital and lasting to each > other, something that will make them stronger, > braver, wiser, and more aware of their potential as > an individual. Nicole: My thoughts exactly. I don't want to see these books become Harlequin romance novels either but the presence of loving relationships between the characters does not doom HP to become a cheesy bodice-ripper of a series. As far as Ron and Hermione go, they have had a very contentious relationship but I think that a lot of this stems from the affection that they feel for each other but have not yet acknowledged. Conventional wisdom tells us that when we care very, very deeply for someone they are often the person we hurt the most. This is because we have so much vested in them emotionally that the slightest word or glance from them has a great power to wound us. When Hermione and Ron fight, it seems to me that they have the ability to hurt one another much more than anyone else hurts them. Furthermore, the worst sting is when someone that we truly care about points out one of our flaws because we want to be something more for that person, we don't want to be seen as flawed by them. I believe this is why Ron becomes so defensive when attacked by Hermione. In my opinion, he really wishes for her to see him as someone special and so anytime she points one of his flaws out to him it is especially painful. It's a constant reminder that, to his mind, he is not good enough for her. Is there anything more painful than believing that we are not good enough for the person we love? There is also the issue or Ron's behavior when Hermione goes to the Yule Ball with Krum. From the first time I read that scene, it seemed blatantly obvious to me that Ron was crazed with jealousy. He had admired Krum and openly gawked at Krum as if he were a god until Krum developed an interest in Hermione. Suddenly, Krum became public enemy #1 and Ron was ripping the head off his Krum figure. He had assumed that Hermione would be available to him and when he realized that she is seen as an object of attraction by another person, he can't handle it. She's *his* Hermione and Krum has a lot of nerve to think he can muscle in on Ron's territory. Me: Some very good points that make a lot of sense to me, Nicole. Nicole: As for Harry and Ginny, I admit that this was a pairing that I did not think much about until rather recently. Of course I noticed that Ginny had a crush on him as that's apparent from the books but in reading through some of the posts on this group and having some discussion with Lilac, I have realized that there are several reasons why Ginny would be perfect for Harry. For one, there's the obvious answer. If Harry were to marry Ginny, he would become a true member of the Weasley family. For another, Ginny is really the only other person in the WW who has some idea of what Harry has suffered at the hands of Voldemort. She too has been tortured by him, which is something that Ron and Hermione and most other people in the WW cannot possibly understand and relate to, at this point. I think that Harry will find a kindred spirit in Ginny and that's very important to him because, as Jessica pointed out, he is very isolated and seems to feel very alone. When someone is the victim of a crime or a terrible tragedy, they often withdraw into themselves and feel that no one else understands until they meet someone who has been through the same experience. This is why support groups exist--once someone is shown that there are others who understand what s/he is going through, s/he is able to unburden him/herself before people who will have carried similar burdens. This shared experience creates a safe environment and helps foster recovery. I think that Ginny and Harry will become a support to one another and that, through this support system, they will begin to heal. Me: Thank-you, Nicole! I didn't realize that my mindless chatter made sense to someone other than me! I've read the "Fantastic Posts" page with the discussions on SHIPS, and this is one point that seems to have been left out of the H/G pro-argument: they both have been in direct contact with Voldemort and lived. Think about it...I'm sure Ginny blames herself for nearly killing several students, and knowing Harry, he'll blame himself for indirectly causing Cedric's death. Like Nicole said, these two might be able to open up to each other because they have similar (although Harry's had far more worse) experiences. This is some common ground on which to build a friendship, even if nothing more than friendship develops. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for something to develop, but friendship is a good start for any relationship. And here's some more Ginny speculation... 1. What does Ginny hear when the dementors come close to her? On the train to Hogwarts in POA, after the dementor leaves, she is shaking very badly and wimpering, even after Harry regains consciousness. On my first reading, I thought it was just because of her reaction to Harry fainting, but I suspect it has something to do with the horrors from her 1st year. (Also, Neville is affected more than the others, save Harry and Ginny. Does he hear his parent's screaming in agony from the repeated Cruciatus curse that he might have witnessed as a toddler?) 2. Could Ginny have possibly learned to conjure a Patronus because of her reaction to the dementors? I know, it's very advanced magic, but we don't know what kind of student she is or even how powerful of a witch she is because Harry doesn't know any of this from his PoV. If Lupin taught her, than I'm sure he would have mentioned something like, "Oh, and Harry...there is another student who is in 2nd year who can conjure a patronus as well, which is pretty remarkable because it's very advanced magic. Just to let you know..." I speculate that Dumbledore could have given her a private tutorial if she went to him with her concerns, or even if the seemingly omniscient Headmaster came to her and asked her if there is anything troubling her, anything at all...Dumbledore probably wouldn't mention anything to Harry because it's Ginny's business, just like how Neville's parents died is Neville's business, as Harry inadvertantly found out. 3. Have "bits of Voldy" stayed with Ginny as well? I guess it would be more correct to say "bits of Tom", who Dumbledore says was probably the most brilliant student Hogwarts had ever seen (CoS). What gifts would stay with a person who was possessed? Would parselmouth have stayed with her? Would her powers be augmented in any way? Was she "possessed", or did the diary cast "imperio" upon her to do Tom's bidding? I like the ideas that she can speak parseltongue, but we have no proof for this yet (come on, book 5...). Just some ideas on what could happen... > -Jessica, who is an eternal big mouth ~Nicole, who thinks Jessica is not a big mouth. Instead, she thinks that Jessica is very eloquent and has started a very thought-provoking discussion. ~Lilac, who says ditto to Nicole. Be kind to yourself, Jessica! p.s. My husband, familiar with some of the acronyms on the list, just asked me what SHIPS stands for, then he answered his own question... "Is it SO, HARRY IS PERFECTLY SEXY?" ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sue at avteq.com.au Fri Oct 4 06:44:09 2002 From: sue at avteq.com.au (Sue Rodgers) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 16:44:09 +1000 Subject: Magical protection Message-ID: <3D9D38B9.8A1965C7@avteq.com.au> No: HPFGUIDX 44926 I've always wondered about the special magic that keeps Harry safe when he is with the Dursleys. Is it perhaps that they are so unmagical that this, oddly enough, gives them special powers, or makes them impervious to seriously damaging magic? After all, Harry is delivered to the Dursleys because he will be safe there according to Dumbledore. If anyone has read the "Scent of Magic" books by Cliff McNish, the most magical child of all the children has no magical powers whatsoever and accordingly is impervious to magic. A second not really related thought. I always loved the concept of the secret keeper. I wonder if Dumbledore keeps Snape safe from Voldemort in return for Snape keeping an eye out for Harry. ie If anything happens to Harry, Snape will lose Dumbledore's protection. Sue From pen at pensnest.co.uk Fri Oct 4 08:44:16 2002 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:44:16 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Men/Women interests (was Re: Sirius, was Re: Ginny Weasley Quotient) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021004024642.0096ad70@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <76FF1E95-D775-11D6-96DA-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 44927 On Friday, October 4, 2002, at 02:46 , GulPlum wrote: > At 13:33 03/10/02 -0700, Susanne wrote: > >> I'm probably one of the few adult readers, who is more >> focused on the trio and hasn't fallen for the charms of >> Lupin, Sirius and/or Snape ;) > > At the risk of sounding sexist, from my experience of HP fandom, you > might > want to change that to "... one of the few women ...". ;-) > > In all seriousness (and in defence of the above statement), in about 11 > months presence in one online HP forum or another, I have found it > interesting that in "favourite character" polls and similar discussions, > most men seem to choose from the Trio + Hagrid + Dumbledore; most women > go > for Lupin, Sirius or Snape. Kids of either gender seem to choose from > the > Trio alone. Hmm... I dunno about sexual fantasies etc... I have always tended to prefer the sidekick, the hero's best friend, the Crown Prince's younger brother. Perhaps this is a subconscious acknowledgment that I'm not the kind of female who gets the hero, perhaps it's something else. But I've always found that for me to really like the actual hero, he has to be in severe difficulties. Miles Vorkosigan springs to mind! (Ah, dear Miles!) So Ron is my favourite of the trio - though it's a close-run thing as all three are delightful. Hagrid is well done but simply not a character type I find interesting. Dumbledore too - he fits neatly into the 'wise old mentor' category, but again, that type doesn't arouse any noticeable interest in me. Samwise is much more watchable than Gandalf, perhaps because the mentor type has so much 'function' that 'personality' is almost a side issue for such characters. Certainly Lupin, Sirius and Snape are more interesting to me than just about any of the other characters. Snape is, I am sure, a good guy with personality and image problems. Lupin is handicapped in a most unusual way. Both of them qualify in my book as 'tortured', although with Snape, I don't yet know exactly what is torturing him (and how intriguing is *that*!). Strangely, though Sirius is the character who has *actually* been tortured, I find him less fascinating than the other two. I think this must be because I perceive him as more traditionally masculine, and too much testosterone bores me. Why exactly a character being 'tortured' in some way makes him interesting, I shudder to think. Usedtabe I turned away in scorn from 'hurt/comfort' in fanfics. Yet lately I have been watching 'Angel' and musing that Wesley looks really delicious when he's being hurt. Go on, I urge, hurt him again! Hmm. Pen From pen at pensnest.co.uk Fri Oct 4 08:45:02 2002 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:45:02 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <926990A5-D775-11D6-96DA-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 44928 On Thursday, October 3, 2002, at 04:28 , responding to the Re: obstruction of justice thread, pippin_999 made passing mention that: > Riddle could have turned seventeen during his sixth year, just as > Fred and George did. JKR has also said that when Harry turns > seventeen he'll be allowed to do magic outside school. > I think this point has come up several times, and this morning I happen to be in a mood to comment, so here we go. *Everyone* turns seventeen during the sixth year at Hogwarts*. Just as everyone turns twelve during the first year. The academic year is from Sept 1st to Aug 31st. From the readers' perspective, things are a little distorted by the fact that we see Harry's birthday at the beginning of the books, of course. But it would be possible to define, say, the first year at Hogwarts as being 'the year during which the pupils have their twelfth birthday). Angelina was able to enter the Triwizard Tournament because she (like Hermione) has a birthday early in the school year. Fred and George grew beards because their birthdays were too late in the school year. If Krum was 18, presumably he was still at school because he, too, has a birthday early in the school year. Harry will not be 18 until he has left school, but it'll be within the period of his seventh year. Pen * For as far as we know, nobody is promoted a year ahead of his/her age group. From gandharvika at hotmail.com Fri Oct 4 11:20:27 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 11:20:27 +0000 Subject: [HP4Grownups]Ac-cent-tchu-ate Wing-gar-dium (FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44929 Ac-cent-tchu-ate Wing-gar-dium (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Ac-cent-tchu-ate the Positive_) This is an old tune...popularized by Bing Crosby http://stage.vitaminic.co.uk/main/bing_crosby/all_tracks/ Prof. Flitwick: You've got to ac-cent-tchu-ate Wing-gar-dium And say Levi-o-sa, then Point the wand at the item and Mind you the simple swish and flick You've got to pro-nounce the words my students That's the special ingredient Careful, or an accident Li'ble to happen with magic To illustrate what I've just said: Wizard Baruffio Said "s" instead of "f" What did he do When a buffalo appeared on his chest? "Man," he said "I should now ac-cent-tchu-ate Wing-gar-dium And say Levi-o-sa, then Point the wand at the item and Minding the simple swish and flick" Oh, yes, mind you the simple swish and flick Oh, gather 'round me students and I will a-teach About Wingardium Leviosa and the art of making things levitate Gather 'round me students if you're prudent and have no qualms While I start reviewing this issue of a-doing charms (Repeat) -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From htfulcher at comcast.net Fri Oct 4 12:09:11 2002 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 12:09:11 -0000 Subject: Magical protection In-Reply-To: <3D9D38B9.8A1965C7@avteq.com.au> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44930 Sue writes: > I've always wondered about the special magic that keeps Harry safe when he is with the Dursleys. Is it perhaps that they are so unmagical that this, oddly enough, gives them special powers, or makes them impervious to seriously damaging magic? After all, Harry is delivered to the Dursleys because he will be safe there according to Dumbledore. If anyone has read the "Scent of Magic" books by Cliff McNish, the most magical child of all the children has no magical powers whatsoever and accordingly is impervious to magic. MarEphraim writes: I believe it has been noted before on this list (perhaps even by me) that the Secret Keeper for Harry at the Dursleys would more likely be Ms Figg. I mention this in relation to the above speculation because if Ms Figg of the stale cake and cats (SCAC) is the same Arabella Figg of the Order of Phoenix (OOP) then we already have at least a partial answer to what some of the protections around Harry in the muggle world might be. I would rather consider the role played by the Dursleys this way. Being so adamantly unmagical, Dumbledore can be certain that without any further prompting they'll do everything in their power to prevent Harry from manifesting any magical abilities until he's ready for Hogwarts. Their outrage at "any funny business" and open condemnation of anything unusual being because Harry is 'incurably criminal' would have a tendencey to put onlookers off the scent, if you will. (Where it the FILK to the tune of "Momma Don't Allow No Banjo Playing Here" ?) On your thoughts of Snape and Dumbledore, I just have a feeling that while it won't be Secret Keeper it will be something profound. That it's not SK, consider, Dumbledore sends Snape out on a mission. From my understanding, the SK has to do with a location occupied by the subjects more than the subjects and their day to day movements. Also, all the SK charms in the world couldn't stop all them Hogwarts students mouthing off about that mean ole Potions Master while on holiday. Just my reflections. ME From potter76 at libero.it Fri Oct 4 13:19:04 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 15:19:04 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peeves' function in the story- Riddles' death Message-ID: <3D9D9548.000001.48831@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 44931 "Flying Ford Anglia" wrote: >> So, how about it: is Peeves Dumbledore's inner teenager let loose on >> the unsuspecting students? Holey_Moley2: >I searched for a post such as this & was unable to find one that has >mentioned what Nearly Headless Nick said in chapter seven of the first >book - that is... >"My dear Friar, haven't we given Peeves all the chances he deserves? >He gives us all a bad name and you know, he's not really even a ghost >-- I say, what are you all doing here?" >If "he's not really even a ghost", then your thoughts become >intriguing Anglia. I say: For as much as I like the idea of a teenage, prankish Dumbledore loose in the school I have to tell you that what Nick says refers to Peeves being a poltergeist and poltergeists are not 'proper' ghosts, more like psychic entities whose sole manifestation is the moving of objects and causation of havoc, they don't usually have a form or shape like the average ghost. OOps, someone (Jay) already answered to this I'm sorry for the repetition! People seems to be overlooking what Mrs Bonsai (what a cute name!) has already pointed out about Tom Riddle's murder of his muggle family. They were not killed with an AK curse but by the Basilisk and we can be sure of that because they are described " Lying there with their eyes wide open! Cold as ice!" and "each of the Riddle had a look of terror upon his or her face", we should be able to recognize the effect of petrification as we've seen a lot of that in CoS: Mrs Norris is said to be "stiff as a board, her eyes wide and staring" and on the same line are the words used to describe Hermione and the others. So, in any discussion of the Restriction of Underage Sorcery these murders must not be taken into account as I'm not sure at all that going about with your pet basilisk qualifies as 'sorcery'. If anyone is left wondering how one could possibly walk the streets with such a 'cumbersone' pet on the lead without being noticed ( remember that no one had noticed the pale, black haired teen outsibe the Riddle house besides Frank), turn to Hermione who figured it out a long time ago; 'pipes' she wrote! This may lead, however, to a couple of questions: how big are Hogwarts' pipes if the Basilisk which is " thick as an oak trunk" (CoS ch. 17) used them? and is the WW waterworks connected to the muggle one? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 14:16:35 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 07:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Basilisk Didn't Do It In-Reply-To: <3D9D9548.000001.48831@i3a2c5> Message-ID: <20021004141635.89624.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44932 Rita wrote: People seems to be overlooking what Mrs Bonsai (what a cute name!) has already pointed out about Tom Riddle's murder of his muggle family. They were not killed with an AK curse but by the Basilisk and we can be sure of that because they are described " Lying there with their eyes wide open! Cold as ice!" and "each of the Riddle had a look of terror upon his or her face", we should be able to recognize the effect of petrification as we've seen a lot of that in CoS: Mrs Norris is said to be "stiff as a board, her eyes wide and staring" and on the same line are the words used to describe Hermione and the others. The words used are the same. Precisely. What the folks are missing who are espousing the basilisk-murder theory (other than the utter implausibility of Riddle bothering to take a basilisk to Little Hangleton) is that people who are petrified (who are NOT dead, let us remember) look remarkably like people who HAVE been killed by Avada Kedevra. This is why, when Mrs. Norris is first found, she is presumed dead. All of the adults thought, at first glance, that it was evident what had happened to her, and it took some prodding by Dumbledore to determine that she was not, in fact, dead. We do NOT know from CoS that someone who actually DIES from looking in a basilisk's eyes (Moaning Myrtle) looks like someone who is petrified. Someone who dies in this way may look quite different. We do not know; all we are told is what people look like who are petrified, which is NOT the same as death. Cedric Diggory is described the same way as the dead Riddles, and we KNOW for certain that he was killed with Avada Kedevra: "...Harry stared into Cedric's face, at his open gray eyes, blank and expressionless as the windows of a deserted house, at his half-open mouth, which looked slightly surprised." Furthermore, it would make no sense, dramatically, for JKR to hark back to CoS at this time. I stand by my original assertion that she was progressing to the final horror of Cedric's death by describing the dead Riddles first, then the demonstration of the curse in the DADA class, then Wormtail putting the curse on Cedric, witnessed by Harry. This is how Harry's parents died. It's very important to the story. The basilisk has no place here. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Oct 4 14:24:34 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 14:24:34 -0000 Subject: Magical protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44933 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marephraim" wrote: > > I would rather consider the role played by the Dursleys this way. > Being so adamantly unmagical, Dumbledore can be certain that Without any further prompting they'll do everything in their power to > prevent Harry from manifesting any magical abilities until he's > ready for Hogwarts. Their outrage at "any funny business" and open > condemnation of anything unusual being because Harry is 'incurably > criminal' would have a tendencey to put onlookers off the scent, if > you will. > A good point. There was another reason mentioned by Dumbledore to McGonagall at some point for placing Harry with the Dursleys. I think it had something to do with "protecting" Harry from his notoriety. What effect Harry's fame would have had on him-had he been placed with a wizard family, we can only guess. I guess what I am saying here is that placing Harry with the Dursleys had a dual purpose: 1) to protect him from Voldemort (through a secret-keeper, perhaps) and 2) to protect him from his "fame" and whatever ill effects that could produce. bugaloo37 From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 14:09:07 2002 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 14:09:07 -0000 Subject: Magical protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44934 marephraim wrote: > I would rather consider the role played by the Dursleys this way. > Being so adamantly unmagical, Dumbledore can be certain that without > any further prompting they'll do everything in their power to > prevent Harry from manifesting any magical abilities until he's > ready for Hogwarts. > I've wondered about this as well. Is it possible, perhaps, that the Fidelis charm can be enacted on an unsuspecting person? Of course I'm thinking of one of the Durselys, most likely Petunia since Lilly was her sister it's possible she might have a recessive gene in there somewhere. > On your thoughts of Snape and Dumbledore, I just have a feeling that > while it won't be Secret Keeper it will be something profound. Agreed. Certainly Snape is at Hogwarts for a variety of reasons not the least of which is personal safety but it's got to be more than just a case of simply hiding behind Dumbledore's skirts. (I know! Dumbledore is Snape's father! No....don't start...just kidding!) Melpomene From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 14:46:56 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 07:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magical protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021004144656.69736.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44935 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marephraim" wrote: I would rather consider the role played by the Dursleys this way. Being so adamantly unmagical, Dumbledore can be certain that Without any further prompting they'll do everything in their power to prevent Harry from manifesting any magical abilities until he's ready for Hogwarts. Their outrage at "any funny business" and open condemnation of anything unusual being because Harry is 'incurably criminal' would have a tendencey to put onlookers off the scent, if you will. > Me: Dumbledore can be certain of no such thing. He knows nothing about them. In fact, he makes the groundless assumption that they will be honest with him about who he is (he tells McGonagall that the Dursleys will tell Harry what he needs to know when he is older). He has no way of knowing that they are magi-phobes who will hide the truth from Harry, just as he has no way of knowing that they may be caring guardians who will cherish Harry like their own son. He also assumes that they will keep him sheltered from the magical world, the only assumption that turns out to be true, and it's purely accidental, when you think about it. Plenty of times, people walking up to him and shaking his hand could have spilled everything to him about who he was. While he may have been protected from people with bad intentions by being with his relatives, he wasn't completely sheltered from the wizarding world, as people who meant well were easily able to access him (we can assume, for instance, that Dobby was well-meaning from the fact that he was able to get to Harry at Privet Drive). Also, the fact that he was regularly abused by all three of the Dursleys (plus Aunt Marge and Dudley's gang), mentally and physically, seems to point to his only being under protection from magical attacks. He wasn't protected from ill-intentioned people in general, just magical ones, it seems. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kristilynn5 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 14:49:49 2002 From: kristilynn5 at yahoo.com (Kristi Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 07:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Basilisk Didn't Do It In-Reply-To: <20021004141635.89624.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021004144949.20930.qmail@web40306.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44936 Barb P wrote: Furthermore, it would make no sense, dramatically, for JKR to hark back to CoS at this time. I stand by my original assertion that she was progressing to the final horror of Cedric's death by describing the dead Riddles first, then the demonstration of the curse in the DADA class, then Wormtail putting the curse on Cedric, witnessed by Harry. This is how Harry's parents died. It's very important to the story. The basilisk has no place here. Now me: It also says in GoF (UK paperback, ch.1, page 9) "... Frank was stubbornly repeating again and again, that he was innocent, and that the only person he had seen near the house on the day of the Riddles' deaths had been a teenage boy, a stranger, dark-haired and pale." So I believe that to be Tom Riddle, and he cast AK to kill his family. I agree with Barb on the no-basilisk theory. Kristi http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From htfulcher at comcast.net Fri Oct 4 15:33:15 2002 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 15:33:15 -0000 Subject: Magical protection -- the Dursleys In-Reply-To: <20021004144656.69736.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44937 Barb P writes: > Dumbledore [snip] knows nothing about them. In fact, he makes the groundless assumption that they will be honest with him about who he is (he tells McGonagall that the Dursleys will tell Harry what he needs to know when he is older).< MarEphraim writes: Actually, he says "His aunt and his uncle will be able to explain everything to him when he's older. I've written them a letter." (PS, UK paperback, p. 15) This doesn't necessarily mean they _will_ tell him. Dumbledore's intentions are clear. Keep Harry away from the WW. It doesn't seem important to Dumbledore what kind of surrogate parents they are, in fact. By the end of PS he certainly knows what they're like yet he has no hesitation sending Harry back to them. I'll backtrack somewhat on his knowledge of their anti-magic prejudice only to a point. We don't have evidence (although we might imagine it possible) that James and/or Lily might have had occasion to mention their strained family relations with the Dursleys. (Imagine Dumbledore over for tea!) Barb P writes: > Plenty of times, people walking up to him and shaking his hand could have spilled everything to him about who he was. While he may have been protected from people with bad intentions by being with his relatives, he wasn't completely sheltered from the wizarding world, as people who meant well were easily able to access him ... [snip]< MarEphraim writes: This assumes that the Fidelius Charm follows the person. According to PoA, it involves "the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, nd his henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keepr chooses to divulge it." (POA, Uk pb, p 152) Note that this has to do with specific information I retract my earlier assumption that the charm is specifically 'location oriented.' It could be any specific piece of information. In the case of the Potters the information was were they lived. Now assuming that the Fidelius Charm was used for Harry, it could have been either where he was staying (with the Dursleys) or that he truly was THE Harry Potter (and not some kid with a similar scar). The second possibility is unlikely as "that was no ordinary cut" (PS, UK pb, p 45), so the former would seem the logical choice. That would mean the Ms Figg really was playing a much larger active role in protecting Harry than we might otherwise have imagined. (We'll have to wait for OoP for more info on that one). On the other hand, Harry's encounters with WW people before the Letter from No One could be a Flint. Barb P writes: >He wasn't protected from ill-intentioned people in general, just magical ones, it seems.< ME: Right, see my comments about the Fidelius Charm above. Despite all the 'mental and physical abuse' Harry suffered at the hands of the Dursleys et al, he seems a quite well adjusted boy (in both worlds). MarEphraim From jmmears at comcast.net Fri Oct 4 16:14:58 2002 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 16:14:58 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44938 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "dcyasser" wrote: > ---> Freya writes: > > > > > I don't see Molly as some horrible parent. The go naked comment > was > > > a reaction to Ron saying he wouldn't wear the second hand one. > I'm > > > sure she is just as frustrated that she cannot provide brand new > > > things for each of her children and she must be tired of having to > > > state over and over the obviouse, lack of funds. We see her being > > > nice to Harry and I don't find that out of sorts. I think she > feels > > > very sorry for poor no family Harry. She tries to mother him in a > > > way. That does not mean she is taking away from her own chilern > to > > > do so. Dona responds: > Ah, but I do think she is taking away, because when she appears at > Hogwarts in GoF, she has moved beyond simply sharing with Harry what > she gives to Ron. She (and Bill, too) are there entirely for Harry, > and Ron doesn't even know about it. > > Since everyone is revealing their Weasley-like pedigree, I will > add for the record that I am the sixth out of seven. I remember > looking through my sister's clothes and picking out the things I > couldn't wait to get handed down to me. And we often had "extra" > kids around the house, adding to the mayhem, having meals, getting > attention from my mom. However, she would never have shown up at my > school, without my knowledge and/or OK, to stand in as surrogate > parent for a classmate, while not showing all that much interest in > how I was doing... > > I think this plays into Ron's psyche more than the money, the hand- me- > downs, the maroon and the corned beef. In the hands of an expert > manipulator, (and we do know some!) this could be construed as > betrayal - Molly throwing over Ron in favor of famous Harry. > I'm sorry Dona, but I must disagree with you here. While Ron has certainly shown that he has some "issues" with his family's poverty, and possibly with the special treatment Harry receives in the WW, I've never seen any evidence that he resents his mother's showing attention and affection to Harry. JKR could have easily shown some indication that Ron is bothered by Molly's visit to Hogwarts, the hugs and gifts she gives Harry, or any of the other ways she shows her concern for Harry. If she so much as mentioned a frown or sullen look from Ron on any occasion when she fusses over Harry, then I might think that you have a point, but I just can't remember a single instance where this happens. There were a series of posts on the list last spring, where we discussed Molly's treatment of Ron vs Harry. I don't have any of the message numbers at hand now, but if you searched through last April/May messages under Molly's name, you may find them interesting. I think that Ron would be amazed at the idea that his mother's affection for Harry takes anything away from him. He's always been very generous in sharing his family with Harry, and seems to know instinctively that that is exactly what Harry needs and wants more than anything else. Ron has his insecurities in other areas (as do Harry and Hermione), but he seems to be completely secure as far as his mother's love is concerned. Jo S., Molly fan From golden_faile at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 16:28:10 2002 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021004162810.88269.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44939 dcyasser wrote: ---> Freya writes: > > > I don't see Molly as some horrible parent. The go naked comment was > > a reaction to Ron saying he wouldn't wear the second hand one. I'm > > sure she is just as frustrated that she cannot provide brand new > > things for each of her children and she must be tired of having to > > state over and over the obviouse, lack of funds. I think this also, she must be totally exasperated every time she has to explain this, and a little embarrassed also. Ah, but I do think she is taking away, because when she appears at Hogwarts in GoF, she has moved beyond simply sharing with Harry what she gives to Ron. She (and Bill, too) are there entirely for Harry, and Ron doesn't even know about it. On this note, I think that the only reason Ron doesn't know about this is because it supposed to be a surprise. As close as they are, if they had told Ron, you can be sure that Harry would have found out. Laila Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ronib at mindspring.com Fri Oct 4 15:37:26 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 15:37:26 -0000 Subject: Magical protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44940 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "melclaros" wrote: > I've wondered about this as well. Is it possible, perhaps, that the > Fidelis charm can be enacted on an unsuspecting person? Of course > I'm thinking of one of the Durselys, most likely Petunia since > Lilly was her sister it's possible she might have a recessive gene > in there somewhere. > > Melpomene My two cents: I think I have seen this argument once before, but I don't remember anyone addressing this evidence--forgive me if I just missed it. As I understand the Fidelius Charm, it hides the person from ALL but the Secret Keeper. Now, it COULD be that the secret is only hidden from one person (in other words, that Lily and James were only hidden from Voldy), but to me that would render the charm ineffective. I mean, if anyone besides Voldy could "see" James and Lily, then anyone could tell Voldy where to find them. That said, I don't see how there could be a Fidelius Charm on Harry. For one thing, everyone in the Wizarding World can see him--obviously. Ok, maybe the Charm is only in effect when he is in the Muggle world . . . . But other wizards can see him--the wizards who recognized him before he got his Hogwarts letter. It seems to me that if that Charm was on him, others could not even see him, BUT, let's argue for a minute that they can SEE him, but can't FIND him. Ok, but Hagrid finds him to give him his letter. Maybe the Secret Keeper told him where to find Harry--fair argument. But the Weasley's found him, and they surely were not told anything by the Secret Keeper. I think there is some very interesting and impressive magic that protects Harry while at the Dursleys', but I think it will be some new fantastic spell or charm that we haven't learned of yet. In every book, JKR gives us a few more glorious piece of the WW, and I think this is one piece she has yet to show us. Veronica From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Oct 4 17:06:49 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 10:06:49 -0700 Subject: Molly and a bit about Harry and Ron, was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Weasley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <482723409.20021004100649@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44941 Hi, Friday, October 04, 2002, 9:14:58 AM, serenadust wrote: > I think that Ron would be amazed at the idea that his mother's > affection for Harry takes anything away from him. He's always been > very generous in sharing his family with Harry, and seems to know > instinctively that that is exactly what Harry needs and wants more > than anything else. Ron has his insecurities in other areas (as do > Harry and Hermione), but he seems to be completely secure as far as > his mother's love is concerned. So far, unless Harry is so grateful for the love shown to him, that he doesn't notice Ron's expressions during those moments, so consequently, we don't hear about them . I do think Molly could show a bit more sensitivity with the clothes issue. Just little things that other people have already mentioned in their posts. I also think, while Ron shows some jealousy toward Harry, he's, in my opinion, amazingly non-jealous for a long time about many things, or at least doesn't show his jealousy. I don't know if I could have done it. In fact, when reading the first book for the first time, I was thinking "enough already" more than once, when one thing after another fell into Harry's lap. Yes, he's had a horrible life, but this *is* like an abused kids fantasy come true, minus the Voldemort issue, of course . All of a sudden finding out you're rich, famous, have amazing powers (stronger than your peers), getting gifts and attention left and right, become the youngest seeker in a century... It's almost too much. And it continues throughout the other books. Harry may not *want* these things, but I'm sure Ron is not the only one who is jealous. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From potter76 at libero.it Fri Oct 4 17:12:47 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:12:47 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Basilisk Didn't Do It Message-ID: <3D9DCC0F.000001.41537@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 44942 >>Rita (me) >>wrote: People seems to be overlooking what Mrs Bonsai (what a cute name!) has already pointed out about Tom >>Riddle's murder of his muggle family. They were not killed with an AK curse but by the Basilisk and we can be sure >>of >>that because they are described " Lying there with their eyes wide open! Cold as ice!" and "each of the Riddle had a >>look of terror upon his or her >>face", we should be able to recognize the effect of petrification as we've seen a lot of that in CoS: Mrs Norris is said >>to be "stiff as a board, her eyes wide and staring" and on the same line are the words used to describe Hermione >>and the others. Barb replied: >The words used are the same. Precisely. I say: that I find troubling that she used the same words to describe different things, it seems to me more like JKR to do that to remind us of something we already know and to let us draw the conclusion that we are really presented with the same thing as the first time we run into that description. Barb: >What the folks are missing who are espousing the basilisk-murder theory >(other than the utter implausibility of Riddle >bothering to take a basilisk >to Little Hangleton) I : don't think so implausible that the basilisk was in L. Hangleton and it wouldn't bother Tom in the least taking it there because the basilisk travels *on its own* through waterworks, even if I reckon it's kind of a stretch to assume this huge beast can fit in an average pipe! But aren't we supposed to suspend our disbelief each now and then? >is that people who are petrified (who are NOT dead, let us remember) look >remarkably like people who HAVE been >killed by Avada Kedevra. This is true and your quote from GoF, that I'm going to cut, proves it; so Barb scores. I was under the illusion (too much TV in my childhood, I guess) that someone who's dead looks like someone sleeping, closed eyes, sort of relaxed' expression and so on. Barb: [cut] >We do NOT know from CoS that someone who actually DIES from looking in a basilisk's eyes (Moaning Myrtle) looks >like someone who is petrified. Someone who dies in this way may look quite different. We do not know; all we are >told is what people look like who are petrified, which is NOT the same as death. me: here, however, I hope to score my 10 points saying that Myrtle so describes her death (Cos ch. 16): "My whole body sort of *seized up*, and then I was floating away...". (emphasis mine) This and Harry's deduction that the reason no one else had died was that they hadn't looked the basilisk straight into the eyes led me to conclude that death by a basilisk is a severe' ( read: non- reversible) form of petrification. Barb: >Furthermore, it would make no sense, dramatically, for JKR to hark back to CoS at this time. I stand by my original >assertion that she was progressing to the final horror of Cedric's death by describing the dead Riddles first, then the >demonstration of the curse in the DADA class, then Wormtail putting the curse on Cedric, witnessed by Harry. This >is how Harry's parents died. It's very important to the story. The basilisk has no place here. Me again: As I have already said, to me it makes sense for JKR to go back to something we saw 2 books ago, it helps 'gluing' all the books together, but everyone is entitled to his/her opinions and impressions. BTW your 'preparation' theory is quite plausible, were I not so sure about the basilisk (which doesn't mean that I'm right) I would totally embrace it. Rita [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 4 17:33:48 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 17:33:48 -0000 Subject: The Basilisk Didn't Do It In-Reply-To: <3D9DCC0F.000001.41537@i3a2c5> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44943 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita" wrote: > I : > don't think so implausible that the basilisk was in L. Hangleton and it > wouldn't bother Tom in the least taking it there because the basilisk > travels *on its own* through waterworks, even if I reckon it's kind of a > stretch to assume this huge beast can fit in an average pipe! That is all very nice if you're travelling between two places that are actually *connected* to each other by waterworks. Within a castle, certainly. Within a limited city neighborhood, maybe. But Little Hangleton is in an entirely different part of the country from Hogwarts. Do you really suppose there's a vast underground labyrinth of interconnected water pipes covering all of the UK? I know we're supposed to suspend our disbelief from time to time, but the number of logical leaps required to support the basilisk theory is getting a bit out of hand, I think. > Me again: > As I have already said, to me it makes sense for JKR to go back to something > we saw 2 books ago, it helps 'gluing' all the books together She already did that in GoF with Polyjuice potion, which was also introduced in CoS. Dragging the basilisk into it too would be redundant. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.comm From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Oct 4 17:45:57 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 17:45:57 -0000 Subject: Molly and a bit about Harry and Ron, was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Weasley In-Reply-To: <482723409.20021004100649@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44944 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Susanne wrote: > > All of a sudden finding out you're rich, famous, have > amazing powers (stronger than your peers), getting gifts and > attention left and right, become the youngest seeker in a > century... > It's almost too much. > And it continues throughout the other books. > Your right everything seems to happen to Harry-good and most certainly bad. IMO, Harry has paid a high price for his riches and glory. How many other children have had to go one-on-one with Voldemort? Now, of course , it can be argued that at times Harry "goes looking" for trouble-however, you have to admit that in book 4, trouble singled him out. The fact that Harry was "set up" to participate in the Tournament-through no fault of his own, IMO, clearly shows his reluctance to draw so much unwanted attention to himself. Ron's failure to overcome his jealosy and see the real danger that Harry is in-is typical behavior for a child. We do have to remember that these are children. We have all seen instances in the real world where children are thrust into adult situations and forced to make grownup decisions. IMO, I think Harry has shown good judgement for one so young-for the most part. And as for getting what he wants, he still has not achieved the thing most important to him- a family-life away from the Dursleys. Remember, how his hopes were dashed when he could not live with Sirius. IMO, as long as he continues to live with the Dursleys, he is more than paying for any fame and fortune he has gained in the WW. bugaloo37 From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Oct 4 17:53:21 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 17:53:21 -0000 Subject: The Ginny Weasley Quotient In-Reply-To: <03b001c26b53$dc5ff910$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44945 Penny wrote, quoting me: <<<<<<<>>>>>> I would consider that more an "omission" than an "outright lie" as Hermione would say. If he lied to Ron though, he also lied to Hermione and virtually everyone else on that same point. And actually, if this is the incident I'm remembering, it's Hermione's feelings he's concerned about, not Ron's: ********************* "I can't remember all of it now, but they were plotting to kill ... someone." He'd teetered for a moment on the verge of saying 'me,' but couldn't bring himself to make Hermione look any more horrified than she already did. (GoF, Chapter 10) ********************* <<<< Now Me: We have different incidents in mind. (My fault, as I didn't say) The one I'm thinking of is this: ******************** "Listen," said Harry, " I didn't put my name in that Goblet. Someone else must've done it." Ron raised his eyebrows."What would they do that for?" "I dunno," said Harry. He felt it would sound very melodramatic to say, 'to kill me'. (GoF, Chapter 17) ********************** Until this latest discussion, I never analyzed that exchange in terms of Harry's character. I had always dismissed it as somewhat OC, a particularly naked bit of plotting, a pretext for the big fight. But think about it...Ron's been smashed by an enchanted chess piece, threatened by giant spiders, come within a hair of being Obliviated, his leg got broken and he was blasted unconscious by a Dark Wizard who could just as easily have killed him outright, all because somebody's been trying to kill Harry ever since he was one year old. Why on Earth would he think Harry was being melodramatic? But Harry is in the throes of adolescent self-doubt, not to mention denial, so he lies, not to spare Ron's feelings, but to spare his own. We never get to hear Ron's side of the story, but I can imagine that conversation over breakfast with Hermione the next day.... Hermione: Where's Harry? Ron: (grumpily) Don't ask me! Hermione: Oh, Ron! You're not still angry at him? Ron: Right again! Amazing, you are. Hermione: (following on from the conversation they must have had the night before) Ron, Harry didn't put his name in the Goblet! Ron: Oh, right. Someone else did it. And why would anybody do that? Hermione: I told you! Someone's trying to get him killed! Ron: Did he tell you that? Hermione: Well, no, but-- Ron: Listen, I asked him why someone would've put his name in, and he just said he didn't know! Like hell! Hermione: Ron! But of course he said that. He didn't want, didn't want-- Ron: Didn't want my help? Well, if he doesn't want it, he doesn't have to have it, does he? Whatever he's up against, I'm sure famous Harry Potter can manage without *me*. Not that he's up against anything. If he thinks someone's trying to do him in, why didn't he say so?" Hermione: Why don't you ask him? Ron:(furiously) I DID! And after the breakfast scene, Harry tells Hermione exactly what happened, and she believes him. Maybe Ron would have believed him too, if Harry had told him the whole story. But Harry didn't. Of course Hermione must've tried to tell Ron herself later, but I can't blame Ron, who is beginning to have feelings for Hermione, for feeling hurt that Harry felt he could confide in Hermione but not in him. But he can't admit that. Of course Ron was being a silly prat. But so was Harry. The proof of this lies in the reconciliation scene, with the words Ron uses to heal the rift. "Harry," he said very seriously,"whoever put your name in the Goblet--I--I reckon they're trying to do you in!" Harry's realized that he doesn't have to hear Ron apologize. But Ron's also realized that he doesn't have to hear an admission from Harry that he didn't tell the truth. On the subject of Ginny, Penny said: >>Actually, Harry got teased because Ron was apparently present when said Hufflepuff girl asked Harry to the Ball (he was definitely present when the 5th year asked Harry a few days later). I strongly suspect if Ginny *had* worked up the courage to ask Harry to the Ball, she'd have done so in private, and there would have been no teasing of either of them because noone would have been privy to it. << L.O.O.N. point: Actually, Harry got teased because, just as Ron had predicted, "...they'll be queuing up to go with you." And it's not easy to keep secrets in a place like Hogwarts (unless you're the DADA teacher, of course.) Anyway, I think we can trust Ginny to understand Hogwarts dating etiquette better than we do, and she's the one who says that she wouldn't have been able to go at all if someone hadn't asked her. Although maybe one of the reasons she's suddenly miserable is that she realizes that if she hadn't been so scrupulous she could've asked Harry after all. You know, I think that scene in the Common Room could be the first time that Ginny realizes that Harry isn't The Boy Who Lived but rather a young man who's just as wretched with this whole boy-girl business as she is. That could be a turning point for her...we don't see her blushing and giggling over Harry after that, do we? Penny: >>But, she had a plot purpose for giving us the wrong impression of Sirius. Not to say that she *can't* undo her heretofore skeletal development of Ginny, but I suppose my question is: if she does intend Ginny to be Harry's eventual love interest, why on earth has she kept Ginny so poorly-developed for the last 2 books? What's the *plot* point to this? She's certainly made no secret of Ron's burgeoning romantic interest in Hermione or of Ginny's crush on Harry?<< Erm, you're asking why JKR wouldn't be obvious? She hasn't made a secret of Ron's interest in Hermione, true, but we certainly don't know the depth of Hermione's feelings about Krum. We know that Krum has strong feelings for Hermione, but just as in Ginny's case we don't know very much about what sort of person he is. We know all about what Harry's like, but we don't know whether he could ever feel anything for Hermione besides friendship. JKR's narrative makes things clear only on one side of a potential pairing. It's not clear how much the love interest will have to do with the plot at all, if you mean the eventual defeat of Voldemort. But one of the major *themes* of the book is that our impressions of other people are often wrong, and that people change, so we can be wrong about them even after we've known them a while. Despite Harry's statement in Book One, "I think I can tell who the wrong sort are for myself, thanks," he's actually not very good at it. No one is. Pippin From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Oct 4 17:55:57 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 10:55:57 -0700 Subject: Molly and a bit about Harry and Ron, was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Weasley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1095671316.20021004105557@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44946 Hi, Friday, October 04, 2002, 10:45:57 AM, bugaloo37 wrote: > And as for getting > what he wants, he still has not achieved the thing most important to > him- a family-life away from the Dursleys. Remember, how his hopes > were dashed when he could not live with Sirius. I do. Maybe Harry will willingly give up power and riches to defeat Voldemort and get what he really wants. At least, I'm still hoping for a happy ending, however cliche it may be . -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 17:58:22 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 10:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magical protection -- the Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021004175822.77239.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44947 I wrote: > Dumbledore [snip] knows nothing about them. In fact, he makes the groundless assumption that they will be honest with him about who he is (he tells McGonagall that the Dursleys will tell Harry what he needs to know when he is older).< MarEphraim wrote: Actually, he says "His aunt and his uncle will be able to explain everything to him when he's older. I've written them a letter." (PS, UK paperback, p. 15) This doesn't necessarily mean they _will_ tell him. Me: Exactly. When he said that the Dursleys "will be able to explain everything" and mentions the letter, he is clearly assuming that they will do this. We have no indication that the Dursleys have shown him this letter. He was making an assumption (that they would follow his suggestions, obviously included in the letter). Barb P writes: > Plenty of times, people walking up to him and shaking his hand could have spilled everything to him about who he was. While he may have been protected from people with bad intentions by being with his relatives, he wasn't completely sheltered from the wizarding world, as people who meant well were easily able to access him ...[snip]< MarEphraim wrote: Now assuming that the Fidelius Charm was used for Harry, Me: This is assuming quite a lot. Considering that Voldemort called the protections on him "ancient magic," which is not a phrase used to describe the Fidelius Charm, and that numerous magical people of good intent have no trouble finding Harry (the Weasley twins and Ron, for instance, when they rescue him in the Ford Anglia) there are many, many clues that the Fidelius Charm is not involved in his Protection on Privet Drive and that there is no Secret Keeper involved. MarEphraim wrote: it would mean the Ms Figg really was playing a much larger active role in protecting Harry than we might otherwise have imagined. (We'll have to wait for OoP for more info on that one). Me: I believe you are correct about this, and it is yet another clue that the Fidelius Charm is not involved. The magic seems to have something specifically to do with Harry staying with relatives, so when the relatives are not available, someone who is a witch masquerading as a Muggle is called in to protect him until the stronger source of protection can return. (JKR pretty much admitted in an interview that Arabella Figg and Mrs. Figg are the same person, I believe. When someone asked her about this, she said "Well spotted!" or words to that effect.) MarEphraim wrote: On the other hand, Harry's encounters with WW people before the Letter from No One could be a Flint. Me: We have no reason to believe this. To twist things like this just so that it appears Harry is under the protection of the Fidelius Charm is rather convoluted, IMO. wrote: >He wasn't protected from ill-intentioned people in general, just magical ones, it seems.< MarEphraim wrote: Right, see my comments about the Fidelius Charm above. Me: Ah, but the description of the Fidelius Charm says it hides people from anyone but the Secret Keeper, not just people planning to do magical mischief. It doesn't fit. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Oct 4 18:07:44 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 18:07:44 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44948 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "serenadust" wrote: > I'm sorry Dona, but I must disagree with you here. While Ron has certainly shown that he has some "issues" with his family's poverty, and possibly with the special treatment Harry receives in the WW, I've never seen any evidence that he resents his mother's > showing attention and affection to Harry. He's (Ron) always been very generous in sharing his family with Harry, and seems to know instinctively that that is exactly what Harry needs and wants more than anything else. I just wanted to add my support to the above mentioned topic. I agree with every statement posted above. And I want to add a few of my own. IMO, Molly Weasley has wonderful mothering instincts-caring, protective, applying discipline necessary for her children's protection. I do not believe Harry could have a more worthy "foster- mother" than Molly. Ron obviously regards Harry highly and understands his lack of caring adults in his life. Harry seems to bring out this mothering instinct in all the women closest to him- Molly, Hermione. Like all kids his age, he sometimes does not appreciate all the mother-henning he receives. IMO, however, the attention of Molly is probably the best thing Harry has going at present in regards to adult supervision and support. I do not believe any of the Weasley children have suffered from a lack of their mother's attention. bugaloo37-who loves Molly because she so obviously loves Harry From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Oct 4 18:20:17 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 11:20:17 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Weasley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1567131946.20021004112017@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44949 Hi, Friday, October 04, 2002, 11:07:44 AM, bugaloo37 wrote: > I do not believe Harry could have a more worthy "foster- > mother" than Molly. Ron obviously regards Harry highly and > understands his lack of caring adults in his life. I agree with the above, but as a mother, I think Molly could tone things down a bit, when it comes to giving really nice things to Harry and being really nice to him (tone of voice, for example) and then being the complete opposite to Ron. I couldn't hurt my own kid's feelings in this way (I know, most people don't think Ron's feelings are hurt by this, but we can't be sure). I just looked ever the robes scene in GoF: ************** "Mum, you've given me Ginny's new dress," said Ron, handing it out to her. "Of course I haven't," said Mrs. Weasley. "That's for you. Dress robes." "What?" said Ron, looking horror-struck. "Dress robes!" repeated Mrs. Weasley. "It says on your school list that you're supposed to have dress robes this year. . . robes for formal occasions." "You've got to be kidding," said Ron in disbelief. "I'm not wearing that, no way." "Everyone wears them, Ron!" said Mrs. Weasley crossly. "They're all like that! Your father's got some for smart parties!" "I'll go starkers before I put that on," said Ron stubbornly. "Don't be so silly," said Mrs. Weasley. "You've got to have dress robes, they're on your list! I got some for Harry too. . . show him, Harry... ." In some trepidation, Harry opened the last parcel on his camp bed. It wasn't as bad as he had expected, however; his dress robes didn't have any lace on them at all - in fact, they were more or less the same as his school ones, except that they were bottle green instead of black. "I thought they'd bring out the color of your eyes, dear," said Mrs. Weasley fondly. "Well, they're okay!" said Ron angrily, looking at Harry's robes. "Why couldn't I have some like that?" "Because. . . well, I had to get yours secondhand, and there wasn't a lot of choice!" said Mrs. Weasley, flushing. ****************** With all the wizards out there, I can't really believe that a maroon dress like thing with moldy looking frilly lace was the only choice. I get the feeling, Molly is somehow stuck on maroon, and won't even consider any other color for Ron, no matter how much nicer the other choices may have been. And why does she have to say things like: "I thought it would bring out the color of your eyes, dear." in the light of Ron's obvious distress. It's like rubbing salt into the wound, and I find it supremely insensitive. So, yes, Molly is great for Harry, but I'm not so sure she's all that great for Ron. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From tmarends at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 18:27:00 2002 From: tmarends at yahoo.com (Tim) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 18:27:00 -0000 Subject: The Basilisk Didn't Do It In-Reply-To: <3D9DCC0F.000001.41537@i3a2c5> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44950 > > Rita: > here, however, I hope to score my 10 points saying that Myrtle so describes > her death (Cos ch. 16): "My whole body sort of *seized up*, and then I was > floating away...". (emphasis mine) This and Harry's deduction that the > reason no one else had died was that they hadn't looked the basilisk > straight into the eyes led me to conclude that death by a basilisk is a > severe' ( read: non- reversible) form of petrification.<<< > If the Basilisk killed the Riddles on Tom's command, wouldn't the Riddle house be haunted by the 3 ghosts. I think the first chapter of GoF, which gives us the background info, states that the house stood empty for the last 50 years... no mention of anything other than kids breaking into it to upset Frank. Tim From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 19:06:08 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 12:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Basilisk Didn't Do It In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021004190608.2630.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44951 That's a different story. JKR has talked a little about why people become ghosts, and it seems to be pretty much in line with other ghost folklore concerning unfinished business. (JKR actually blames unhappiness on people becoming ghosts, but by extension one can say that someone is unhappy who has unfinished business). There is nothing to suggest that the Riddles were unhappy (they were clearly oblivious to the angsty life of young Tom Riddle) so there is no reason to expect them to become ghosts no matter how they were murdered. Myrtle talks about her problems with Olive Hornby and her general teenage misery when she died. She was both very unhappy and had unfinished business. She was actually actively haunting Olive until the Ministry made her go back to her toilet. Myrtle isn't a ghost because she was killed by a basilisk; she is a ghost because she can't let go of this world for other reasons. The ghost issue is somewhat confusing because we have the character of Nearly Headless Nick, whose unfinished business/unhappiness seems to be specifically caused by the way he was killed, i.e. the botched beheading (if there's another reason why Sir Nick is still holding on, JKR isn't telling). So I can understand Sir Nick causing some confusion about the means of death having something to do with whether a person becomes a ghost. --Barb Tim wrote:If the Basilisk killed the Riddles on Tom's command, wouldn't the Riddle house be haunted by the 3 ghosts. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From potter76 at libero.it Fri Oct 4 20:21:03 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 22:21:03 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Basilisk Didn't Do It References: Message-ID: <3D9DF82F.000004.40079@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 44952 Tim: If the Basilisk killed the Riddles on Tom's command, wouldn't the Riddle house be haunted by the 3 ghosts. I think the first chapter of GoF, which gives us the background info, states that the house stood empty for the last 50 years... no mention of anything other than kids breaking into it to upset Frank. Me: Why should it be haunted? Not every dead person becomes a ghost. Remember that Myrtle had something to do on Earth, make that Olive who sent her crying into the toilet and ultimately caused her to die pay for it! and when that was done she still had the whole world to 'punish' for her miserable life! Even though I'm quite convinced that what is holding her back now is that she actually enjoys being a ghost at Hogwarts1 Rita. From htfulcher at comcast.net Fri Oct 4 19:57:14 2002 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 19:57:14 -0000 Subject: Magical protection -- the Dursleys In-Reply-To: <20021004175822.77239.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44953 Barb P writes: > Exactly. When he said that the Dursleys "will be able to explain everything" and mentions the letter, he is clearly assuming that they will do this. We have no indication that the Dursleys have shown him this letter. He was making an assumption (that they would follow his suggestions, obviously included in the letter). < Forgive me. You obviously didn't see the in which I was attempting to be funny. I'm not trying to upset anyone on this list, just trying to fit in. However, does your reply address the point that Dumbledore doesn't appear to care how Harry's treated, even after knowing about it? Barb P writes: > > MarEphraim wrote: > > Now assuming that the Fidelius Charm was used for Harry, > > Me [Barb P]: > > This is assuming quite a lot. I may misremember on this one, but I believe the speculation about Fidelius was already in the conversation. I attempted to address it on the merits of what is actually said in canon about it. Barb P writes: >Considering that Voldemort called the protections on him "ancient magic," which is not a phrase used to describe the Fidelius Charm, and that numerous magical people of good intent have no trouble finding Harry < MarEphraim writes: You-Know-Who was refering to his mother's sacrifice that had protected Harry from his malevolent touch (see GoF Chapter 23 "The Death Eaters," UK, pb, p 566). Not wishing to push the Fidelius speculation much further on this topic (hoping that JKR will eventually settle the issue in future books), I would submit that 'numberous magical people of good intent have no trouble finding Harry' doesn't really preclude the use of Fidelius to protect him while at Privet Dive, when we look at whatcanon says about it. For this reason: Harry has spent a lot of time with Ron and may well have told him where he lived. If Fidelius works by allowing the Secret-Keeper to have absolute confidentiality over the information in question, we still can't exclude that the particular wizard that is the subject of the spell would not also know where he/she was. It wouldn't prevent the wizard in question from giving out the information him/herself. This might offer an explanation how Ron and brothers were able to find him. That someone not privy to the secret at the center of Fidelius could not find the wizard in question "if he had his nose pressed against" the window (PoA, UK, pb p 153) would not violate the possibility regarding Harry at the Dursley's precisely because of the distinction. The one was not privy to the secret, while the others (Ron and brothers in the example used) were. Harry had obviously told Ron. We do know that Ron knows the physical muggle address and phone number as the Weasleys send Harry a muggle post letter. (GoF, UK, pb, p32f) Barb P writes: > I believe you are correct about this [Ms Figg as a protectress], and it is yet another clue that the Fidelius Charm is not involved. The magic seems to have something specifically to do with Harry staying with relatives, so when the relatives are not available, someone who is a witch masquerading as a Muggle is called in to protect him until the stronger source of protection can return. < I'll still hold out for Fidelius on this one. If Fidelius in this instance is focused on "Harry is living at 4 Privet Drive" it is yet of no use as a protection for him when he's in school, out shopping with Aunt Petunia, etc.. That's when Ms Figg would be needed. Also, I think the magic that has "something specifically to do with Harry staying with relatives" is stretching Dumbledore's comments at the end of PS about why He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named couldn't touch Harry. Barb P writes: > We have no reason to believe this. To twist things like this just so that it appears Harry is under the protection of the Fidelius Charm is rather convoluted, IMO.< MarEprhaim writes: No twisting involved. The Flint comment was just that, an off hand one about other possibilities related to PS. I'm just trying to logically follow the possibility of Fidelius' use as it is actually described in canon. I think whether or not it was used regarding Privet Drive (and I'm inclined to beleive it possibly was), the interpretation of what Fidelius does or does not do as described by several people on this list doesn't really follow what canon tells us about it. Rather, people seem to be taking a specific instance of its use and generalizing that this is all it can be used for. Its possible assistance is both extended and contracted unless we take seriously what Prof Flitwick actually says about it. Barb P writes: > Ah, but the description of the Fidelius Charm says it hides people from anyone but the Secret Keeper, not just people planning to do magical mischief. It doesn't fit.< MarEphraim writes: Actually this is not what it says in canon. It is what the Harry Potter Lexicon says about it: "Complex and powerful charm that hides a person or persons completely; their location is known only to their designated 'Secret Keeper.'" (http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/spells_f.html#Fidelius ) What canon says about it (as I quoted in post 44937) is that it involves "the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keepr chooses to divulge it." (POA, Chapter 10, "The Marauder's Map", UK pb, p 152) Note that this has to do with _specific_ _information_. It could be any specific piece of information. I bid all look up the quoted information. I'm not saying Fidelius was the only protection I'm saying it may well be part of the protection. It may not eventually be shown by JKF to have been used but it is truly not inconsistent to say it could have done. I'm sorry Barb, and I don't want to offend you or anyone else on this list as I feel privileged to be part of it, but you haven't addressed the issue because you've misinterpreted what canon says the Fidelius Charm does. MarEprhaim From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 20:50:36 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 13:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Weasley In-Reply-To: <1567131946.20021004112017@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20021004205036.81641.qmail@web20003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44954 --- Susanne wrote: > > With all the wizards out there, I can't really > believe that > a maroon dress like thing with moldy looking frilly > lace was > the only choice. I believe she is telling the truth. She has no reason to lie about the selection of robes. If she said it was sparse, it was probably sparse. Not to mentin that some secondhand robes might be much more expensive than others. > I get the feeling, Molly is somehow stuck on maroon, > and > won't even consider any other color for Ron, no > matter how > much nicer the other choices may have been. I disagree that she would deliberately pick something bad just because of the color. Though she may think maroon looks good on Ron, or she may think he likes the color. > And why does she have to say things like: "I thought > it would > bring out the color of your eyes, dear." in the > light of Ron's > obvious distress. > It's like rubbing salt into the wound, and I find it > supremely insensitive. Maybe she was trying to make him feel better? Like when a friend gets an awful haircut and knows it, you tell them it doesn't look so bad. I don't think she's trying to make him feel bad just for fun. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Oct 4 20:54:41 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 13:54:41 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Weasley In-Reply-To: <20021004205036.81641.qmail@web20003.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021004205036.81641.qmail@web20003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <11016397484.20021004135441@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44955 Hi, Friday, October 04, 2002, 1:50:36 PM, Rebecca wrote: > Maybe she was trying to make him feel better? Like > when a friend gets an awful haircut and knows it, you > tell them it doesn't look so bad. I don't think she's > trying to make him feel bad just for fun. She was saying the thing about the eye color to *Harry*, not to Ron. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Oct 4 21:05:20 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 21:05:20 -0000 Subject: The Basilisk Didn't Do It In-Reply-To: <20021004190608.2630.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44956 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barb P wrote: > > That's a different story. JKR has talked a little about why people become ghosts, and it seems to be pretty much in line with other ghost folklore concerning unfinished business. (JKR actually blames unhappiness on people becoming ghosts, but by extension one can say that someone is unhappy who has unfinished business). I believe I read someplace that book 5 is going to take up this issue of why certain people become ghosts and others do not. There must be something more to this issue or JKR would not have stated a further clarification would be forthcoming. The issue of unhapiness being a catalyst makes me wonder the following: what kind of unhappiness are we talking about here? Unhappy with current life situation (like Myrtle) or simply unhappy to be dead? IMO, I think anyone who is murdered would be unhappy to be dead. This would include Cedric Diggory and James and Lily Potter. All three of these people were young and had full lifes to look forward to. The Potters had a son to raise-IMO, this qualifies as "unfinished business" IMO, there must be another reason -yet unrevealed-that accounts for why someone becomes a ghost. IMO, I believe Harry is going to have a one-on-one talk with a ghost-maybe Nick, with whom he is friendly-or perhaps, a new kid on the block-Cedric maybe?- concerning this issue. Perhaps, he will begin to question why his parents did not become ghosts and start looking for answers. bugaloo37-who is ready to have some of her questions answered concerning James and Lily Potter via Harry being a little more curious concerning his parents. From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 21:07:03 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 14:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Weasley In-Reply-To: <11016397484.20021004135441@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20021004210703.27979.qmail@web20001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44957 --- Susanne wrote: > > > Hi, > > Friday, October 04, 2002, 1:50:36 PM, Rebecca wrote: > > > Maybe she was trying to make him feel better? > Like > > when a friend gets an awful haircut and knows it, > you > > tell them it doesn't look so bad. I don't think > she's > > trying to make him feel bad just for fun. > > She was saying the thing about the eye color to > *Harry*, not > to Ron. > Sorry about taht, my brain took a mini-vacation. But again, I don't see how that's a slight to Ron. To me, Mrs. Weasley just seems to be carrying on two conversations at once. One with Harry, one with Ron. She's pleasant and friendly to Harry because he's pleasant and friendly to her. She's annoyed with Ron because she's defensive. She wishes he could have better rombes too, but they *can't afford it*. And nothing is going to change that. Dress robes are likely very expensive. Sometimes kids can make you feel very guilty, and that's what Ron did. He didn't mean to, of course, but he did. She's doing the best she can, and he's jumping on her because it's not good enough. It hurts. She could have reacted better, but she's human. HP is full of imperfect characters, Molly Weasley among them. But imperfect doesn't mean bad. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Oct 4 21:37:47 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 21:37:47 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Weasley In-Reply-To: <1567131946.20021004112017@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44958 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Susanne wrote: > I agree with the above, but as a mother, I think Molly could > tone things down a bit, when it comes to giving really nice > things to Harry and being really nice to him (tone of voice, > for example) and then being the complete opposite to Ron. > > So, yes, Molly is great for Harry, but I'm not so sure she's > all that great for Ron. IMO, there are certain things we need to keep in mind in regards to this issue. First all, Harry's robes were purchased with Harry's money. Molly picked the best she could find for the money she had. As we all know, Harry has enough money to buy first-rate items. He is not having to split his inheritance with four other siblings ( I am not counting Bill or Charlie in this equation because they are self-sufficient adults at this point). Molly takes a defensive tone with Ron because he has put her on the defensive. Harry never has crossed Molly-at least not verbally. Like so many times before, we the readers are not privy to every nook and cranny of Molly's relationship with her children. I believe in someone's post, they stated no one is perfect. I agree. Something just came to mind, in GoF, when Dumbledore is deploying his troops-so to speak-as Bill was leaving to carry a message to his father-he stops to kiss his mother. Obviously,IMO, Bill harbors no deep-seated resentment against his mother and when Ron grows up a little-these issues concerning clothes and such will be forgotten. IMO, what will be remembered concerning his parents by Ron is the fact that his parents did the best they could with what they had. bugaloo37 From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Fri Oct 4 21:42:23 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 22:42:23 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magical protection References: <3D9D38B9.8A1965C7@avteq.com.au> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44959 Hi. I have wondered about this myself. The Dursley's have such a strong reaction to any mention of anything 'abnormal' that perhaps that provides some form of shield. One the other hand, when that is shaken, (such as at the lighthouse in PS), they can be affected just the same as anyone else. On a different basis, like it or not, the Dursley's are related to Harry. Petunia is the closest thing to Harry's mother (she shares the same blood, flesh and bone) (those were part of the rite that revived Voldemort) and therefore there should be a strong tie between her and Harry. If she is a squib, that may also provide additional magical back-up. Vernon may not be related to Harry, but he is Dudley's farther and -presumably - link to petunia by ties of love. That could provide a considerable basis to back up the protection that Harry received from Lily. On a darker note, it is evident that the Dursley's have no love for Harry - Does that affect the defences? Does their hate mean that Harry is practically defenceless? Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Rodgers To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 7:44 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magical protection I've always wondered about the special magic that keeps Harry safe when he is with the Dursleys. Is it perhaps that they are so unmagical that this, oddly enough, gives them special powers, or makes them impervious to seriously damaging magic? After all, Harry is delivered to the Dursleys because he will be safe there according to Dumbledore. If anyone has read the "Scent of Magic" books by Cliff McNish, the most magical child of all the children has no magical powers whatsoever and accordingly is impervious to magic. A second not really related thought. I always loved the concept of the secret keeper. I wonder if Dumbledore keeps Snape safe from Voldemort in return for Snape keeping an eye out for Harry. ie If anything happens to Harry, Snape will lose Dumbledore's protection. Sue ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... 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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 21:44:53 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 14:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magical protection -- the Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021004214453.13238.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44960 marephraim wrote: However, does your reply address the point that Dumbledore doesn't appear to care how Harry's treated, even after knowing about it? Me: I didn't address the point because I think Dumbledore isn't concerned about it. He also doesn't usually reign in Snape. Dumbledore has a little perspective, I believe, and his priorities are to worry about the evil dark wizards. I believe that after he meets Harry and is aware of how awful the Dursleys are, he sees that, in spite of this, Harry's quite strong and well-adjusted, and since the magic protecting Harry is dependent on his relatives' presence, Dumbledore obviously doesn't want to take him away from them. (Thought: Could the protection charm have a side-effect that is like a reverse Congeniality Charm? In other words, could the magic protecting Harry be what is making his relatives such nasty buggers to live with? On second thought--nah. There's every indication at the beginning of the first book that they'd be like this in any event. Too bad; if the magic were to blame, there might be some hope for them after Harry no longer needs the protective magic.) I wrote: >Considering that Voldemort called the protections on him "ancient magic," which is not a phrase used to describe the Fidelius Charm, and that numerous magical people of good intent have no trouble finding Harry < marephraim wrote: You-Know-Who was refering to his mother's sacrifice that had protected Harry from his malevolent touch (see GoF Chapter 23 "The Death Eaters," UK, pb, p 566). Me: Voldemort also used this phrase to refer to the protection Harry has on Privet Drive. In the same chapter you site, he says, "But how to get at Harry Potter? For he has been better protected than I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future. Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care. Not even I can touch him there..." This strongly implies a more esoteric spell than the Fidelius Charm, which I believe Voldemort would identify by name if that were the source of protection. There is another argument for it being a different spell as well: Dumbledore is unlikely to use the very spell that resulted in Harry's parents' deaths, as he is painfully aware of the fallibility of Fidelius. The Secret Keeper is the weak link. He clearly needed to do something more drastic than use the Fidelius Charm to protect Harry, and it's worked. The Fidelius Charm is never called "an ancient magic" in PoA. I believe Voldemort is talking about something else entirely. Barb P wrote: > Ah, but the description of the Fidelius Charm says it hides people from anyone but the Secret Keeper, not just people planning to do magical mischief. It doesn't fit.< marephraim wrote: Actually this is not what it says in canon. It is what the Harry Potter Lexicon says about it: "Complex and powerful charm that hides a person or persons completely; their location is known only to their designated 'Secret Keeper.'" (http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/spells_f.html#Fidelius ) Me: Um, that's exactly what I said, with only very slightly different language. I fail to see how "hides people from anyone but the Secret Keeper," can be considered to have a different meaning from "their location is known only to their designated 'Secret Keeper." marephraim wrote: I bid all look up the quoted information. I'm not saying Fidelius was the only protection I'm saying it may well be part of the protection. It may not eventually be shown by JKF to have been used but it is truly not inconsistent to say it could have done. I'm sorry Barb, and I don't want to offend you or anyone else on this list as I feel privileged to be part of it, but you haven't addressed the issue because you've misinterpreted what canon says the Fidelius Charm does. Me: I maintain that I have stated exactly what the Fidelius Charm does, as per canon, and that the events in canon (all of the "nice" people who have no trouble finding Harry) directly contradict the idea that this charm could have been used. I also cannot state strongly enough that it is highly unlikely that Dumbledore will use what has been proven to be faulty in the past. He's clearly found something better. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Fri Oct 4 21:44:44 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 22:44:44 +0100 Subject: Iconic roles in HP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44961 This is just an idle collection of thoughts, but I was wondering if we could attach Iconic roles to the supporting characters (everyone aside from Harry himself), and see what would come out. An Iconic role is an aspect of life, personified (from Harry's POV), in the form of a person. The Children Ron = Friendship Hermonine = Knowledge (I suppose she could also be friendship or romance, but knowledge seems to be a big part of her personality.) Neville = Trepidation/fear of failing Ginny = Innocence (She might become romance later, but that depends on a H/G romance developing in the series.) Cho Chang = Desire (Harry's attracted to her. If she does not return that, she could also be 'la Bella dam sems merci') Dudley = meanness. (Dudley is mean because he can be.) Draco = The Dark Side. (Draco is presumably walking down the dark path and would attract Harry to follow him.) Crabbe / Goyle = Servitude/Stupidity Cedric = Nobleness (or possibly sacrifice) Fred and George = Tricksters The Adults Dumbledore = Wisdom/Merlin (The Wise old farther figure. If this is correct, Dumbledore is doomed, as the child has to push aside the farther to grow up.) Snape = Redemption Hagrid = rescuer McGonagol = sternness and incorrupabillity Voldemort = Evil Malfloy Snr. = Corruption Fudge = Wilful Blindness Sirius = Protector Molly Weasaley = Love Mrs Dursley = Jealously Mr. Dursley = Intolerance Madame Pomfrey = Compassion Lupin = Achievement or Forgiveness (Can't decide) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mcarlin at ev1.net Fri Oct 4 20:45:21 2002 From: mcarlin at ev1.net (Megan Carlin) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 15:45:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Weasley References: <1567131946.20021004112017@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <004101c26be6$f5f21b90$1c00a8c0@tom> No: HPFGUIDX 44962 Susanne wrote: >>With all the wizards out there, I can't really believe that >>a maroon dress like thing with moldy looking frilly lace was >>the only choice. >>I get the feeling, Molly is somehow stuck on maroon, and >>won't even consider any other color for Ron, no matter how >>much nicer the other choices may have been. As one who absolutely adores Molly, and will defend her to the death, let me weigh in on the topic. And to do so I need to give you all an example of my grandmother (who, bless her, is as much like Molly as any of us could ever dare to be). Somehow, over the length of my 23 years, my grandmother has decided that I like candy corn. I ate it once in front of her when I was little and said I liked it, and now it's almost as if the first thing she thinks of when she sees me is candy corn. I like candy corn *alright*, but not to the degree we're talking about. Yet there it is, every time I go to see her. Now, I don't get mad, I don't get upset with her for not knowing me well enough to know that's not what I like. No, that's just part of her eccentric personality and I completely love her for this. She is *trying* to please me, and somehow she got it in her head that this is what I like. So instead of upsetting me by getting me stuff I "don't like", she goes with what she think is safe and I'll really like. She's like this with *lots* of things, including the color purple. [lol] This is the same woman who once bought me a dress...with pink bears on it. And I was 19. I haven't worn a dress since I was 5 willingly, much less one pink...with bears. She means well, and never, ever in my life have I thought less of her for it. She's trying to make me happy. And I think that's why Molly does the things she does. She's trying to make Ron happy while satisfying the requirements of his school on their modest budget. The sandwiches, the dress robes are examples of that. As for the maroon, well it might be like my Grandmother's candy corn. She may *think* Ron loves maroon. He could hate it, but she probably believes she's doing good by him. And never once do we see Ron tell his mother that he doesn't like maroon. She may have bad fashion taste, trust me...it happens with mothers. Think of your mother. Would she know what the most popular fashions are in your age group? >>And why does she have to say things like: "I thought it would >>bring out the color of your eyes, dear." in the light of Ron's >>obvious distress. >>It's like rubbing salt into the wound, and I find it >>supremely insensitive. I also think that she's irritated at Ron in this scene, and letting him know. Parents do this all the time, especially mothers and sons, when the mothers don't feel comfortable discussing their feelings with their children. And you have to admit, Ron is being a pain right there (as much as I love Ron). Molly is not stupid. It's not as if she doesn't *know* they're poor and hearing Ron carrying on like that has got to hurt her feelings and make her feel inadequate. So maybe she's not great at expressing that, so she's snappish at Ron and nice to Harry on purpose. Parents are human, they get irritated with people just the same as anyone else. Oh and I agree that Ron doesn't ever comment on her treating Harry better, because he doesn't care. Harry is his best friend, and Ron knows Harry needs special attention because of his homelife. It's my firm opinion that *none* of the Weasley children suffer for attention or parental affection. Weighingly, Megan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From potter76 at libero.it Fri Oct 4 21:12:29 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 23:12:29 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Basilisk Didn't Do It References: Message-ID: <3D9E043D.000006.40079@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 44963 Marina: That is all very nice if you're travelling between two places that are actually *connected* to each other by waterworks. Within a castle, certainly. Within a limited city neighborhood, maybe. But Little Hangleton is in an entirely different part of the country from Hogwarts. Do you really suppose there's a vast underground labyrinth of interconnected water pipes covering all of the UK? I know we're supposed to suspend our disbelief from time to time, but the number of logical leaps required to support the basilisk theory is getting a bit out of hand, I think. Me: I do suppose that there's an underground labyrinth of water pipes under the UK. I'm not an expert so I may be wrong but as far as I ever understood it the water that comes into my house comes from a lake miles away through a series of 'pipes' with dozens of branches that go in many different direction reaching places far away from where I live. Couldn't the basilisk travel all the way up to the starting point and get into the pipe that leads somewhere completely different from Hogwarts? And then there is the sewer to take into account, can't the basilisk travel through that too? and as you know sewers get to rivers, and sometimes rivers get into other rivers that have other sewers. To me it all seems quite possible and I don't feel I'm leaping' all over the place, but then I've always shown to posses a kind of twisted logic, so you may be right! rita From ronib at mindspring.com Fri Oct 4 21:25:25 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 21:25:25 -0000 Subject: Magical protection -- the Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44964 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marephraim" wrote: > For this reason: Harry has spent a lot of time with Ron and may well > have told him where he lived. If Fidelius works by allowing the > Secret-Keeper to have absolute confidentiality over the information > in question, we still can't exclude that the particular wizard that > is the subject of the spell would not also know where he/she was. It > wouldn't prevent the wizard in question from giving out the > information him/herself. This might offer an explanation how Ron and > brothers were able to find him. Me: I'll give you that one, but what about Dobby? We could say that the rules of the Fidelius Charm don't apply to non-human magical creatures, but that seems almost too easy. Veronica From smellee17 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 4 21:03:03 2002 From: smellee17 at hotmail.com (smellee17) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 21:03:03 -0000 Subject: Lupin the Spy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44965 In The Prisoner of Azkaban, Sirius acknowledges that Sirius and James thought that Remus was the spy and Remus was the one who was feeding information to Voldemort. I always wondered why the thought Remus was the traitor. I wouldn't think becuase he was a werewolf, but I can't come up with anything. Any thoughts, please? signed smellee From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Oct 4 22:40:18 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 17:40:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Basilisk Didn't Do it/Lupin the Spy/ the Dursleys/ Mrs. Weasley References: Message-ID: <00dc01c26bf7$04803380$c4a2cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 44966 Rita writes: > that I find troubling that she used the same words to describe different > things, it seems to me more like JKR to do that to remind us of something we > already know and to let us draw the conclusion that we are really presented > with the same thing as the first time we run into that description. It is interesting that the manner in which the victims of the basilisk are found is described as similar to those killed with AK. Remind me again what we know about AK? Any evidence of anyone prior to Voldemort/Riddle using AK? I think the possibility was discussed a while back that Voldemort "invented" the AK curse. Is it possible that he found a way to "bottle" the killing power of the basilisk's curse? Thus the similarities in the victims? smellee writes: > In The Prisoner of Azkaban, Sirius acknowledges that Sirius and James > thought that Remus was the spy and Remus was the one who was feeding > information to Voldemort. I always wondered why the thought Remus > was the traitor. I wouldn't think becuase he was a werewolf, but I > can't come up with anything. Any thoughts, please? I have two "explanations" for this. First of all, since Sirius knew there had to be a spy, and knew it had to be either Peter or Remus, Remus may have been the logical choice because he was a werewolf, which means Sirius was prejudiced and brings up more issues. The other thing is if the Mauraders were in fact from four different houses, and if (there are a lot of ifs involved in this one) Peter was in Hufflepuff, those are supposed to be the loyal ones. So he would (foolishly) have thought it was safe with Peter as secret keeper, since he's the loyal one. Neither of these may be the right reason, though, so I'd love to hear more thoughts on this! MarEphraim writes: > Despite all the 'mental and physical abuse' Harry suffered at the > hands of the Dursleys et al, he seems a quite well adjusted boy (in > both worlds). In both worlds? Harry doesn't seem very well adjusted in the Muggle world. He has no friends in the Muggle world. He spends his summers shut up in his room staying as far away as he can from the Dursleys. He never did have any friends in the Muggle world, even before he entered the WW, thanks to Dudley scaring anyone away who would even consider talking to him. In the Muggle world he seems quite a loner and never did fit in. At least now with the WW he does fit in someplace. Megan writes: > it, but she probably believes she's doing good by him. And never once do we see > Ron tell his mother that he doesn't like maroon. She may have bad fashion taste, trust > me...it happens with mothers. Think of your mother. Would she know what the most > popular fashions are in your age group? Okay, perhaps. But would it be so hard to remove the lace or do SOMETHING with it once she finds out how Ron feels about it? Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From kellybroughton at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 23:16:05 2002 From: kellybroughton at yahoo.com (kelly broughton) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 16:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: % In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021004231605.55084.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44967 --- jastrangfeld wrote: > **** I also believe that the basilisk do > not kill unless they want to. Otherwise, why would Tom have to tell > the basilisk to kill Harry in the chamber? The thing is out for so > much blood, you would think just releasing it would be enough. > Julie A question: how would the basilisk know who is pureblood and who's muggle-born? I get the impression that once it was released, it was pretty much on it's own; I really don't see either Tom or Ginny walking beside it, or riding it, in order to pick and chose who lives or dies. -kel __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From jmmears at comcast.net Fri Oct 4 23:26:02 2002 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 23:26:02 -0000 Subject: Molly and a bit about Harry and Ron, was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Weasley In-Reply-To: <482723409.20021004100649@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44968 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Susanne wrote: > > I also think, while Ron shows some jealousy toward Harry, > he's, in my opinion, amazingly non-jealous for a long time > about many things, or at least doesn't show his jealousy. I absolutely agree with you on this. When Harry got the Firebolt from his anonymous benefactor in PoA, I was expecting at least a whiff of normal envy from Ron. Instead, his spontaneous reaction is (after speculation about who sent it) to be thrilled at what a great broom it is "...This is an *international* standard broom, this is!" and delighted at the prospect of Malfoy's reaction. "'..Wait till he sees you on this! He'll be sick as a pig! Probably cost more than all the Slytherns' brooms put together', said Ron happily."(chapter 11, PoA). Now this seemed a bit much to me. This would be like your best friend (who is already independantly wealthy) getting a Ferrari from an unknown benefactor, while you can't afford anything better than a second-hand bike. No matter how strong the friendship is, it's just abnormal IMO, for Ron to not say anything to the effect of "gee Harry, I wish that just once someone would give *me* the best broom on the market!" (this is the SECOND time this has happened!) For a character who many think is pathologically jealous, Ron seems downright saintly in books 1-3. I was actually relieved when he finally blew up in GoF, although I felt horrible for both of them during their fight. It just would not have been realistic for him to continue behaving as if all the incredible things falling into Harry's lap don't *ever* get to him. I actually think that the conflict in GoF strengthened Ron & Harry's friendship, and that JKR put it into the book for that very purpose. C.R.A.B. badge anyone? Jo Serenadust From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 4 23:38:11 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 23:38:11 -0000 Subject: The Basilisk Didn't Do It In-Reply-To: <3D9E043D.000006.40079@i3a2c5> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44969 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita" wrote: > > Marina: > > That is all very nice if you're travelling between two places that are > actually *connected* to each other by waterworks. Within a castle, > certainly. Within a limited city neighborhood, maybe. But Little > Hangleton is in an entirely different part of the country from > Hogwarts. Do you really suppose there's a vast underground labyrinth > of interconnected water pipes covering all of the UK? I know we're > supposed to suspend our disbelief from time to time, but the number of > logical leaps required to support the basilisk theory is getting a bit > out of hand, I think. > > Me: > > I do suppose that there's an underground labyrinth of water pipes under the > UK. I'm not an expert so I may be wrong but as far as I ever understood it > the water that comes into my house comes from a lake miles away through a > series of 'pipes' with dozens of branches that go in many different > direction reaching places far away from where I live. A water system connected to a particular lake or reservoir can certainly cover a large area, but if another area far away is being serviced by a different reservoir, it's going to have its own separate system. The two are not going to be connected to each other. There's a good reason for keeping them separate -- if one water source gets polluted or contaminated, you don't want it spreading to other areas. Hogwarts, which is somewhere in Scotland, sits right next to a lake. We know, because Moaning Myrtle confirmed it GoF, that its water system connects to that lake. Hogsmeade probably uses it too, and maybe some of the other nearby villages. But Little Hangleton is way down in England. It's not going to be connected to the Hogwarts lake. And that's not even taking into account the fact that the Wizarding World has its own infrastructire, separate from the Muggle world. It's got its own train line, its own bus service, its own postal service, communications network (the Floo), etc. Chances are its water system is separate from the Muggle system, too. > Couldn't the basilisk > travel all the way up to the starting point and get into the pipe that leads > somewhere completely different from Hogwarts? And then there is the sewer to > take into account, can't the basilisk travel through that too? and as you > know sewers get to rivers, and sometimes rivers get into other rivers that > have other sewers. So now we've got Tom dragging a basilisk along through hunreds of miles of water pipes, sewers and rivers, all so he can kill three defenseless Muggles? When he could accomplish the same task by speaking two words? It makes no logical sense. Especially since, as others have pointed out, the use of Avada Kedavra carries great thematic importance throughout GoF, while the basilisk is completely extraneous to anything that happens in that book. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From gandharvika at hotmail.com Fri Oct 4 23:51:49 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 23:51:49 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peeves' function in the story Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44970 "Flying Ford Anglia" wrote: >So, how about it: is Peeves Dumbledore's inner >teenager let loose on the >unsuspecting students? Rita Then Said: >For as much as I like the idea of a teenage, prankish >Dumbledore loose in >the school I have to tell you that >what Nick says refers to Peeves being a >poltergeist and poltergeists are not 'proper' ghosts, >more like psychic >entities whose sole manifestation is >the moving of objects and causation >of >havoc, they don't usually have a form or shape like the >average ghost. >OOps, someone (Jay) already answered to >this I'm sorry for the repetition! And Me: The noticeable differences that I see between Peeves and other ghosts are that 1) Peeves has some color to him while the other ghosts are transparent/translucent and 2) Peeves can manipulate items while other it seems that other ghosts can not (Nearly Headless Nick has to ask Peeves to smash the cabinet to cause the distraction in CoS...NHN couldn't do it himself) When I think about Peeves, I keep remembering about what Fleur said at the Yule Ball...something to the effect that if Beauxbaton had a poltergeist, it would be removed, "just like that". And what Filch said in GoF, when he thought that Peeves had stolen the champion's egg...(I'm so sorry I don't have any books to quote from!) that now Dumbledore would have to listen to him and throw Peeves out. Somehow, this makes me think that Peeves is something more than just psychic energy (at least in JKR's books). He's a big headache, to students and faculty alike...but for some reason I think Dumbledore is intentionally keeping him around. -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Oct 4 23:59:38 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 16:59:38 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Weasley In-Reply-To: <004101c26be6$f5f21b90$1c00a8c0@tom> References: <1567131946.20021004112017@earthlink.net> <004101c26be6$f5f21b90$1c00a8c0@tom> Message-ID: <12727495855.20021004165938@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 44971 Hi, Friday, October 04, 2002, 1:45:21 PM, Megan wrote: > Molly is not stupid. It's not as if she > doesn't *know* they're poor and hearing Ron carrying on like that has > got to hurt her feelings and make her feel inadequate. So maybe she's > not great at expressing that, so she's snappish at Ron and nice to > Harry on purpose. Parents are human, they get irritated with people > just the same as anyone else. Right, parents are human, and Molly is, too. I just reacted to the "perfect parent, Molly" image . She *could* have taken Ron aside earlier and explained to him what the "dress" was. He was obviously totally surprised and truly thought she had accidently given him one of Ginny's dresses. And I still stand by my remark that she could have at least taken the lace off. That doesn't take that much time and effort. Also, shouldn't there be a spare robe around from Percy, Bill or Charlie? If the twins have one each, there should still be one more hanging around. You also said about your grandmother: > She is *trying* to please me, and somehow she got it in her head > that this is what I like. So instead of upsetting me by getting me > stuff I "don't like", she goes with what she think is safe and I'll > really like. She's like this with *lots* of things, including the color > purple. [lol] > I know what you mean. My grandmother thought I liked marzipan, which I detest, and gave me a large case every Christmas and Birthday. Now, if Molly were Ron's grandmother, I'd understand completely, but she's his mother. Anyway, I'm not saying she's horrible, but does have a insensitive moments concerning Ron and almost a kind of hero worship for Harry. For Harry, she couldn't be any better, but I can't help feeling a bit bad for Ron sometimes. Her interactions with Ron, and then with Harry are just such a contrast, and I'm sure it has a lot to do with Harry not being her child and him not talking back to her or antagonizing her. We've all had different life experiences and I'm sure it colors our perceptions of the characters in the books. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 5 00:37:54 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 00:37:54 -0000 Subject: Peeves' function in the story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44972 Gail B wrote (with slight rearranging on my part): >>>>He's a big headache, to students and faculty alike...but for some reason I think Dumbledore is intentionally keeping him around.<<< >>> The noticeable differences that I see between Peeves and other ghosts are that 1) Peeves has some color to him while the other ghosts are transparent/translucent and 2) Peeves can manipulate items while other it seems that other ghosts can not (Nearly Headless Nick has to ask Peeves to smash the cabinet to cause the distraction in CoS...NHN couldn't do it himself)<<< Me: Now if we combine those thoughts, maybe Dumbledore is keeping Peeves around for more than comic relief. Peeves is able to run freely around the place and cause havoc. He can knock things over and disturb the scene for bad AND good. Ghosts are mere messengers, but Peeves is a defense. Granted, he only obeys Dumbledore out of respect and Bloody Baron out of fear, but he can be tamed. Peeves did tell Dumbledore about Black in the castle. He seems to be a truthful poltergeist when he forced. Since poltergeists generally scare away people, maybe Peeves help frighten away intruders who think a live person is making all the racket. How many times have The Three been delayed because of Peeves? Seems he can foil many plans. Of course, JKR could just being using Peeves as a wonderful vehicle for her wicked sense of humor. I adore the suits of armour singing Christmas carols with foul words inserted by Peeves. And also the Potter Rotter musical number with dance routine. Perfectly priceless and laugh-out-loud-in-a-public-place-so-that-everyone-stares-at-you- but-you-don't-notice-or-care funny. Peeves seems to be that mischievous twinkle in everyone's eye, but you are right. There seems to be more there. Melody From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Sat Oct 5 00:46:48 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 01:46:48 +0100 Subject: Magical protection -- the Dursleys In-Reply-To: References: <20021004175822.77239.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021004215456.00969770@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44973 At 19:57 04/10/02 +0000, marephraim wrote, regarding the possibility of Harry being protected by a Fidelius Charm while at the Dursleys: >That someone not privy to the secret at the center of Fidelius could >not find the wizard in question "if he had his nose pressed against" >the window (PoA, UK, pb p 153) would not violate the possibility >regarding Harry at the Dursley's precisely because of the distinction. The >one was not privy to the secret, while the others (Ron and brothers in the >example used) were. Harry had obviously told Ron. We do know that Ron >knows the physical muggle address and phone number as the Weasleys send >Harry a muggle post letter. (GoF, UK, pb, p32f) Let's assume that you're right, and Harry's primary protection at the Dursleys is a Fidelius Charm. The two halves of the full quote (the other half of which you quoted later) should be taken together. The power is in the hands of a *single* Secret-Keeper (or rather, as per the quote, that person's "soul"). It would seem that you're suggesting that it's not Mrs Figg, but Ron who is Harry's Secret-Keeper (or else how would Ron know where Harry is?). It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for Ron to have been Harry's Secret-Keeper before they knew each other, and especially not after they became best friends. Furthermore, from the way Flitwick describes the Charm, the fact that Ron has divulged the Secret to *anyone* (in this instance, his brothers) immediately breaks the Charm itself - it is useless. Also, revealing the secret is the Secret-Keeper's prerogative, not that of the person who is the object of the charm. Someone who had no right to find out Harry's exact whereabouts or make contact with him, and from whom the protection of the Fidelius would primarily be required is Sirius Black. Yet at the beginning of PoA, he has no problems whatsoever not only getting to Little Whinging but *seeing* Harry. Had he so desired, Sirius could have had his way with Harry in that dark street, instead of just scaring him by his appearance. If the Fidelius Charm was no protection against the person who was considered to be Voldemort's right-hand man, and whose escape from Azkaban was presumed on strong circumstantial evidence to be specifically for the purpose of getting at Harry, then what on earth was the point in putting it into place? Exactly from *whom* was the charm meant to be protecting Harry, if not Sirius? Besides which, the Fidelius Charm was the instrument of the Potters' downfall - Dumbledore really doesn't strike me as the kind of person who'd make the same mistake twice... >If Fidelius in this instance is focused on "Harry is living at 4 Privet >Drive" it is yet >of no use as a protection for him when he's in school, out shopping with >Aunt Petunia, etc.. That's when Ms Figg would be needed. So where was she when Sirius Black came looking? Considering he'd been on the loose for a day or more (I don't recall exactly what timeline canon implies and can't be bothered to go upstairs to check my books), surely Mrs Figg would have been put on primary alert and wouldn't have allowed 4 Privet Drive out of her sight, just in case Black was to turn up (incidentally, I reserve the right to maintain that point as a potential FLINT if Mrs Figg is revealed to be Harry's protectress in whatever capacity, unless JKR gives her some reason to be absent from Little Whinging on that day). >Also, I think the magic that has "something specifically to do with >Harry staying with relatives" is stretching Dumbledore's comments at >the end of PS about why He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named couldn't touch >Harry. That's not the only reference to the importance of the Dursleys to Harry's protection. I'd refer you to the conversation at the end of GoF when Molly wants to take Harry straight back to the Burrow but Dumbledore doesn't let her. >I bid all look up the quoted information. I'm not saying Fidelius >was the only protection I'm saying it may well be part of the >protection. It may not eventually be shown by JKF to have been used >but it is truly not inconsistent to say it could have done. Sorry, but based on the scant information we have on how Fidelius works and what we know of the circumstances of Harry's stay with the Dursleys, my own feelings are quite categorical that the Fidelius forms no part whatsoever of Harry's protection. I want to expand on that with some wider observations about "secrets" in the Potterverse. People are keeping "secrets" all over the place. A few examples. In the first book, nobody knows that Quirrell was in Voldemort's thrall (although Snape at least strongly suspects it), that Snape saved Harry during the Quidditch match, that Fluffy could be put to sleep with music. In the second, that Tom Riddle was Voldemort, that the Chamber was real, that Dobby was trying to help Harry, that Ginny had Tom Riddle's diary. In the third, that the Marauders were Animagi, that Peter was alive, that Lupin was a werewolf, that there was a passage under the Whomping Willow, that Sirius was the "grim" Harry kept seeing, that Hermione had a Time-Turner. In the fourth, that Barty Crouch Jnr. was alive and out of Azkaban, that Harry didn't orchestrate his entry into the Tournament himself, and of course the Tournament tasks themselves were kept secret. No special charms, spells or force are used to keep these secrets: those who know are willing to keep silent. An author keeping "secrets" from readers is of course a major element of the mystery genre in general, but in the case of the HP books, they are secrets which the protagonists are keeping from each other. Unlike most mystery novels, it is not the revelation of any secrets themselves which drives the narrative of the Potter books (usually, in murder mysteries, for instance, the murder occurs because the victim knows something the perpetrator does not wish to be known, or there is a "secret" connection between the two; once that motive is known, the murderer is obvious). The closest the Potter books come to this is PoA, because the plot wouldn't exist if everyone knew that Peter Pettigrew was Scabbers. But that is not what actually drives the plot. Sirius doesn't care whether the world knows about their Animagus status; he just wants to kill the rat, and takes some convincing that it would be better to have him transform first. To have the whole series of books encompassed by an over-arching "secret", that nobody knew that Harry was staying at the Dursleys would be a masterstroke. However, in each of the books, we discover more and more people who know he's there. In no particular order, and doubtless not exclusively: the Muggle authorities know he's there from the onset (he goes to Muggle school which knows how to contact his guardians, he wears glasses which means he has a doctor and optician); the entire Weasley family know he's there; Arthur's contact who connects the house to the Floo network presumably knows he's there; the MoM as a whole knows he's there (they know where to send the warning letter; Fudge knows where to go looking for him, albeit unsuccessfully); Dumbledore, McGonagall and Hagrid know he's there; Voldemort knows he's there; Sirius knows he's there. Peter Pettigrew knows he's there; significant numbers of the wizarding community know he's there and know what he looks like to greet him during his childhood. Harry's presence at the Dursleys is NOT a secret, for goodness' sake! So what's the point of a Fidelius Charm and a Secret-Keeper, when there's no secret to be kept? However the Fidelius Charm is construed, almost all of the above people have seen and interacted with Harry at Privet Drive or in its vicinity. No, I submit that JKR's masterstroke is that the overarching "secret" is *so* secret that the objects and subject of the secret don't even know it's there. Namely, the agents of Harry's protection, the Dursleys, don't even know that all this time, when they'd have wanted nothing better than to be rid of Harry, that *they* are his protection. Likewise Harry, who despises the Dursleys and everything they stand for, is only just realising (if he's been listening to Dumbledore properly) that he owes them his safety. The precise nature of this protection is yet to be revealed to us (after, all it's a secret!) :-) but personally, I need look no further (and *especially* not towards the Fidelius) for the means of Harry's protection while in Little Whinging. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who's feeling rather smug this evening, 'cos the local primetime TV news today built a story around an email he sent them. :-) From ron2bme at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 22:30:07 2002 From: ron2bme at yahoo.com (ron2bme) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 22:30:07 -0000 Subject: Lupin the Spy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44974 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "smellee17" wrote: > In The Prisoner of Azkaban, Sirius acknowledges that Sirius and James > thought that Remus was the spy and Remus was the one who was feeding > information to Voldemort. I always wondered why the thought Remus > was the traitor. I wouldn't think becuase he was a werewolf, but I > can't come up with anything. Any thoughts, please? signed smellee me Secrets known only to the inner circle of James, Sirius, Peter, and Remus were being leaked to Voldemort and because James and Sirius were such good friends, that left Peter and Remus as a possible spy. I think they saw Peter as to weak and frightened to be working for Voldemort, leaving Remus as the spy. Thats why Sirius picked Peter and not Remus to keep the secret. Just my thought. Ron From sydpad at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 23:51:46 2002 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 23:51:46 -0000 Subject: Lupin the Spy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44976 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "smellee17" wrote: > I always wondered why the thought Remus > was the traitor. I wouldn't think becuase he was a werewolf, but I > can't come up with anything. Any thoughts, please? I always reckoned little Peter had been laying a heck a lot of groundwork for his betrayal. I can well see him running back and forth between the marauders, dropping a hint here, an insinuation there, and generally making sure that when the crunch came there was plenty of suspicion to go around. He certainly had his "How could you, Sirius" drama rehearsed and set up in advance. This brings up the question: at what point did he cave in to Voldemort? His story is that he was made secret keeper first. My feeling was that V. was working on him for a long time as the weakest link, and furthermore was counting on him to figure out a way to be made Secret Keeper. Obviously this would require ensuring nobody really trusted anybody else; Peter would be well up to outright lies in order to make sure this happened. -- Sydney (definitely NOT a SYCOPHANT) From ronib at mindspring.com Fri Oct 4 22:32:23 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 22:32:23 -0000 Subject: Lupin the Spy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44977 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "smellee17" wrote: > In The Prisoner of Azkaban, Sirius acknowledges that Sirius and James > thought that Remus was the spy and Remus was the one who was feeding > information to Voldemort. I always wondered why the thought Remus > was the traitor. I wouldn't think becuase he was a werewolf, but I > can't come up with anything. Any thoughts, please? signed smellee Here's my thoughts anyway. >From PoA (US Hardback)(The Marauder's Map):"[Dumbledore] was sure that somebody close to the Potters had been keeping You-Know-Who informed of their (the Potters') movements . . . . Indeed, he had suspected for some time that someone on our side had turned traitor and was passing a lot of information to You-Know-Who." Ok, well the closest people to the Potters were Sirius, Lupin, and Pettigrew, right, or at least, so we would assume from the description of "the gang" at Hogwarts. Well, if Sirius and James were like brothers, they would not suspect him as the spy, and the impression I get of their opinion of Peter was that they thought him kinda harmless. He "hero-worshipped Black and Potter" according to McGonagall, and even Rosmerta remembered him "tagging along after" Sirius and James. I suspect they didn't think him capable of anything like that. Which would have left Lupin-- not as close as James and Sirius--just slightly separate, but still a very capable wizard. That was my take on it anyway. Veronica From purpleangelstar7 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 5 00:09:55 2002 From: purpleangelstar7 at yahoo.com (b) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 00:09:55 -0000 Subject: The Basilisk Didn't Do It ( James & Lilly's ghost) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44978 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: >>The Potters had a son to raise-IMO, this qualifies as "unfinished >business" > bugaloo37-who is ready to have some of her questions answered > concerning James and Lily Potter via Harry being a little more > curious concerning his parents.< Sorry for no checking past messages for the subject, but it was too much for me to read. To help bugaloo37 out a bit, I believe that Harry might get his answer by his parents-in ghost form. For me, it seems that we just dipped our little finger into the lake of magical places and secrets. There are so many magical places that Harry has never seen or gone to so he can explore and search for his answers, like Godric's Hollow. There is no cannon evidence to suggest otherwise. I have a little theory to prove my point further. What if James and/or Lilly was stuck in Godric's Hollow at their shambled house. Maybe there is a clause that after a certain years of staying put where they died, James and/or Lilly could travel and stay anywhere they wanted, especially Hogwarts. The problem is that how many years will it take? Or maybe you could go ask Godric himself if you can go haunt someplace more cozier that the place where you met your death. I hope that this helps to stimulate someone who has a better ideal than that which was just typed. Bluemoonnanaria P.S.- wouldn't be a sad day if Harry finally found out where his parents resided just to find out that James or Lilly wasn't there? It would give him another reason to go after Big V. ^-^ From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 5 00:53:55 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 00:53:55 -0000 Subject: Lupin the Spy In-Reply-To: <00dc01c26bf7$04803380$c4a2cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44979 smellee writes: >>>In The Prisoner of Azkaban, Sirius acknowledges that Sirius and James thought that Remus was the spy and Remus was the one who was feeding information to Voldemort. I always wondered why the thought Remus was the traitor. I wouldn't think becuase he was a werewolf, but I can't come up with anything. Any thoughts, please?<<< So Richelle wrote: >>>>>I have two "explanations" for this. First of all, since Sirius knew there had to be a spy, and knew it had to be either Peter or Remus, Remus may have been the logical choice because he was a werewolf, which means Sirius was prejudiced and brings up more issues. The other thing is if the Mauraders were in fact from four different houses, and if (there are a lot of ifs involved in this one) Peter was in Hufflepuff, those are supposed to be the loyal ones. So he would (foolishly) have thought it was safe with Peter as secret keeper, since he's the loyal one. Neither of these may be the right reason, though, so I'd love to hear more thoughts on this!<<<< So I add: I always Lupin and Black assumed each other because they dismissed Pettigrew as being intelligent enough to pull off the lie and betrayal. Pettigrew, after all, is always being described as not to bright and a tag-a-long. They seemed to always dismiss him as able to accomplish much of anything. Though Lupin had more reason to believe Black was the spy since he heard the story of Black and Pettigrew's encounter. Lupin knows of Pettigrew's weakness and Black's anger and passion. If Lupin is to believe that Black is the betrayer as the WW does, it is easy to *make* the pieces fit rather than to accept that Pettigrew was stronger than Lupin thought. Why would Voldemort want Pettigrew around anyway? What good could Pettigrew be to him cause? It seems to me that Lupin and Black both ruled out Pettigrew because they figured Voldemort would not want a pathetic wizard like him. Voldemort cannot be that desparate or compassionate. Melody From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Sat Oct 5 01:23:26 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 02:23:26 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magical protection -- last words on Fidelius In-Reply-To: References: <20021004214453.13238.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021005020355.0096e490@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 44980 At 22:29 04/10/02 +0000, pcnsc2002 wrote: >Okay. I'll let this be my final msg on this thread (to the cheers of >thousands!) I suspect it may well not be. :-) I've just posted a lengthy reply to your arguments in another sub-thread. Some of it could be construed as a reply to this one as well, but there's one specific point I'd like to add. >This is not what Professor Flitwick says about the Charm in Prisoner >of Azkaban. He manifestly does not say that the Fidelius Charm hides >people. > >What he says is the following: > >"An immensely complex spell," he said squeakily, "involving the >magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The >information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, >and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the >Secret-Keepr chooses to divulge it." (Prisoner of Azkaban, Chapter >ten, "The Marauder's Map" page 152.) > >This is his definition of the Fidelius Charm. It involves >concealment of information, not of persons. You missed out the next sentence he said, which is vitally important in this conversation, because it defined the exact application of the Fidelius in this particular instance: "As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!" Reproducing the quote without that last sentence is akin to reducing Animagus transformation to Transfiguration. What that sentence adds to the equation (I'm deliberately reusing your words) is that he manifestly states that the Fidelius Charm was used to hide the Potters from view. Furthermore, he implies that *only* the Secret-Keeper would be able to reveal their presence (i.e. the Potters would not). Now then, if its use in Harry's case was not to hide him while he's at the Dursleys, to what use *was* it put? What possible "information" regarding Harry would the Fidelius Charm be used to hide, if not his presence? >But I still am certain Fidelius was one of the charms protecting >Harry, at least up until he attended Hogwarts. As certain as I am that it was not? :-) >MarEprhaim >(sitting back, with folded arms, in Hargrid-like resolve) -- GulPlum, taking up *exactly* the same stance. :-) (adding that his stance probably looks more impressive, due to being not dissimilar in size to Robbie Coltrane) :-) From msbonsai at mninter.net Sat Oct 5 00:50:57 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 00:50:57 -0000 Subject: % In-Reply-To: <20021004231605.55084.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44981 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., kelly broughton wrote: > > --- jastrangfeld wrote: > > **** > I also believe that the basilisk do > > not kill unless they want to. Otherwise, why would Tom have to tell > > the basilisk to kill Harry in the chamber? The thing is out for so > > much blood, you would think just releasing it would be enough. > > > Julie > > A question: how would the basilisk know who is pureblood and who's > muggle-born? I get the impression that once it was released, it was pretty > much on it's own; I really don't see either Tom or Ginny walking beside > it, or riding it, in order to pick and chose who lives or dies. > > -kel Kel, I'm not sure where you see that I said it was stricktly after mudbloods. I said it was out for blood in general, looking for whatever it could get. But I believe that if it were some sated, then it could travel (although for what purpose I don't know. Basilisks can have fun too can't they :o) ) and choose not to kill something. I'm not quite certain I agree with something that was said before, where Tom apparently said for the Basilisk to kill Harry only after Harry could no longer see it. I mean, Harry was not actually wearing the sorting hat immediately. True, he did have his eyes closed. In the American COS p 319 "Something soft hit his face. The basilisk had swept the Sorting Hat into Harry's arms." As powerful as Riddle was at the moment, he could have somehow forced Harry to simply open his eyes if this were the case, why send a hunking huge snake who you would think would be a bit cumbersome after Harry? I also do not know where it states that the Basilisk was extremely huge at the time when Riddle first used him. Perhaps he did indeed raise it, making it easier for it to travel. MrsBonsai (Julie) From msbonsai at mninter.net Sat Oct 5 01:04:01 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 01:04:01 -0000 Subject: Ghost theories was: James & Lilly's ghost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44982 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "b" wrote: > I have a little theory to prove my point further. What if James > and/or Lilly was stuck in Godric's Hollow at their shambled house. > Maybe there is a clause that after a certain years of staying put > where they died, James and/or Lilly could travel and stay anywhere > they wanted, especially Hogwarts. The problem is that how many years > will it take? Or maybe you could go ask Godric himself if you can go > haunt someplace more cozier that the place where you met your death. > I hope that this helps to stimulate someone who has a better ideal > than that which was just typed. > > Bluemoonnanaria > P.S.- wouldn't be a sad day if Harry finally found out where his > parents resided just to find out that James or Lilly wasn't there? It > would give him another reason to go after Big V. ^-^ Hmm, but Moaning Myrtle was able to haunt Olive Hornby all over the place immidately after she died. So I would tend to think there is no "time limit" on this. The only reason she was brought back to the girls bathroom is the MOM made her. And while someone else said that James and Lilly would have unfinished business and therefore could be ghosts, simply because Harry is alive, well I believe they simply thought he would be in good hands. As Harry's godfather, they believed Sirius would take care of Harry. They would have known Sirius did not betray them. How could they know Harry would end up with her dreaded sister? MrsBonsai(Julie) From msbonsai at mninter.net Sat Oct 5 01:08:58 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 01:08:58 -0000 Subject: Magical protection -- the Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44983 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Veronica" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marephraim" wrote: > > For this reason: Harry has spent a lot of time with Ron and may > well > > have told him where he lived. If Fidelius works by allowing the > > Secret-Keeper to have absolute confidentiality over the information > > in question, we still can't exclude that the particular wizard that > > is the subject of the spell would not also know where he/she was. > It > > wouldn't prevent the wizard in question from giving out the > > information him/herself. This might offer an explanation how Ron > and > > brothers were able to find him. > > > Me: I'll give you that one, but what about Dobby? We could say that > the rules of the Fidelius Charm don't apply to non-human magical > creatures, but that seems almost too easy. > > Veronica Sorry for jumping in here, but don't you think that Harry would have told Ron where he lived when he told them all about the Dursleys? It seems to me a lot of students at Hogwarts knew he did not like the Dursleys. That was made apparent in COS, when the students presumed he could be the heir of Slytherin simply because he "hated his muggle relations". Also, seeing as they knew the Dursley's names, even though they may not know about a phone book or how to use it, Hermione did, and could have simply told them. MrsBonsai(Julie) From pennylin at swbell.net Sat Oct 5 03:44:10 2002 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 22:44:10 -0500 Subject: The Ginny Weasley Quotient (some SHIP) References: Message-ID: <006d01c26c21$7705e1f0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 44984 Hi -- Pippin said: <<<<>>>>>>>>> Er ... I'm not following why it's relevant to your point that Ron is beginning to have feelings for Hermione. Even if he wasn't at all romantically interested in Hermione, would he not be similarly hurt by Harry's ability to confide in her and not him? I don't dispute your point, but that bit seemed odd to me. :--) I said: >>Actually, Harry got teased because Ron was apparently present when said Hufflepuff girl asked Harry to the Ball (he was definitely present when the 5th year asked Harry a few days later). I strongly suspect if Ginny *had* worked up the courage to ask Harry to the Ball, she'd have done so in private, and there would have been no teasing of either of them because noone would have been privy to it. << Pippin made a L.O.O.N. point thusly: Actually, Harry got teased because, just as Ron had predicted, "...they'll be queuing up to go with you.">>>>>>>>> Counter-L.O.O.N. point: I suggest that actually we don't know the precise reason why Harry was being teased, but I think it might be closer to my reasoning than what you suggest. Here's the excerpt: *********************** A curly-haired third-year Hufflepuff girl to whom Harry had never sponken in his life asked him to go to the ball with her the very next day. Harry was so taken aback he said 'no' before he'd even stopped to consider the matter. The girl walked off looking rather hurt, and Harry had to endure Dean's, Seamus' and Ron's taunts about her all through History of Magic. The following day, two more girls asked him, a second-year and (to his horror) a fifth-year who loked as though she might knock him out if he refused. "She was quite good-looking," said Ron fairly, after he'd stopped laughing. ********************* Sounds to me like Ron, Seamus and Dean overheard the 3rd year asking Harry out and teased him about her. Sounds to me like Ron heard the 5th year asking Harry out too. It also sounds to me like (a) it's not uncommon for girls to ask out boys, and (b) that younger students certainly could ask older ones to be their dates (Harry was not only asked by that 3rd year, but also a 2nd year). Pippin again: <<<<<<<>>>>>>> No, we don't see her giggling over Harry after that. We don't see her at all after that. Actually, we see her *once* more after that IIRC, but it's not as though Ginny has any appearances or speaking role for the last *half* of GoF. After the Yule Ball where she is wincing for her poor toes while dancing with Neville, I don't think we see or hear anything about Ginny even once. I stand ready for some L.O.O.N. to point out that I'm wrong ..... which is fine. But, we certainly don't see anything noteworthy of Ginny after the Yule Ball, that's for sure. :--) <<<<<>>>>>>> My point exactly. We only know for certain the feelings of one side of any given potential romance pairing. Er ... yes. :::whistles something that sounds suspiciously like Farmer in the Dell:::: :--) Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Sat Oct 5 06:21:07 2002 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 06:21:07 -0000 Subject: Ghosts and Avada Kedavra (Re: James & Lilly's ghost) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44985 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "b" wrote: > > I have a little theory to prove my point further. What if James > and/or Lilly was stuck in Godric's Hollow at their shambled house. > Maybe there is a clause that after a certain years of staying put > where they died, James and/or Lilly could travel and stay anywhere > they wanted, especially Hogwarts. The problem is that how many > years will it take? Or maybe you could go ask Godric himself if you > can go haunt someplace more cozier that the place where you met > your death. > I hope that this helps to stimulate someone who has a better ideal > than that which was just typed. > > Bluemoonnanaria > P.S.- wouldn't be a sad day if Harry finally found out where his > parents resided just to find out that James or Lilly wasn't there? It > would give him another reason to go after Big V. ^-^ My personal theory is that Avada Kedavra causes the persons soul to evade their body and be sucked into the casters wand, leaving no ghost behind at all. If this is the case, that would give him an even better reason to go after Voldemort. After all, Priori Incantem is casting a shadow of the reverse of the previous spells. The opposite of having someones ghost come out of a wand I would think would be pulling their soul into the wand. This would also give another good reason why the spell is Unforgivable. Now that I've said this, JK Rowling will undoubtedly put the ghost of someone who's been AK'ed in book 5, just to ruin my theory... --Arcum From jodel at aol.com Sat Oct 5 06:30:47 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 02:30:47 EDT Subject: Magic Detection Message-ID: <80.229b7898.2acfe117@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44986 Sheryl writes; << So what's the deal? Is this a mistake, or is there some pattern I'm missing? Of course, there are 3 more books coming, perhaps all will be explained. >> Well if there IS a pattern I wish someone would explain it to ME. Because it completely escapes me. I am growing into the interpretation that the whole "magical monitoring" concept is a rather shabby device that Rowling is jerking around and rewriting to suit whatever she wants it to be at any given moment. And that's pretty much my point. Because it doesn't seem to be at all consistent as far as the information that we'vwe been given to date goes. If we look at the evidence so far; Book 1. For ten years Harry has been producing intermittent but highly noticable spontaneous magical "breakthroughs" and the Ministry of magic does *nothing* about any of them. Book 2. One floating pudding and Harry gets a nasty-gram threatening expulsion within five minutes of the incident. Furthermore, that floating pudding was produced wandlessly (House Elves are forbidden to have wands, remember?), how did the MOM come to the conclusion that this wasn't just another breakthrough? Book 3. Harry produces another and fairly spectacular breakthrough (wandlessly again, I might add), The Magical Reversal squad, complete with obliviators show up within the hour. Harry is reassured that no one seems to hold this against him and his Aunt Marge doesn't remember a thing. Is it just me, or are these incidents totally inconsistent with one another? What the hell is Rowling playing at? Huh? -JOdel, who realizes that by posting this there is a risk of looking totally foolish if OoP comes out with a full expose of hanky-panky in the Ministry Dept in charge of monitoring underage wizards. From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sat Oct 5 07:05:23 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 08:05:23 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magic Detection References: <80.229b7898.2acfe117@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44987 Hi. I think that there is a pattern, its just very sutle and well hidden. For reasons best known to Dumbledore, the WW has seen fit to leave its greatest hero ignorant of its existance until he became old enough to go to hogwarts. Therfore, there was a real limit to what the WW could achive without revealing (to harry) its existance. None of the small events mentioned in Book 1 seem to have been earthshaking. Seeing that they were done by an ignorant child (and Dumbledore might assume that the Dursley's had told harry about his heritage), they may just have noted them and ignored them. However, in books 2 and 3, harry knows about the WW and he also knows that doing magic outside school is ilegal. Therefore, they can interfere at will. I don't think its hanky-panky, just people being very limited in what they do. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: jodel at aol.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 7:30 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magic Detection Sheryl writes; << So what's the deal? Is this a mistake, or is there some pattern I'm missing? Of course, there are 3 more books coming, perhaps all will be explained. >> Well if there IS a pattern I wish someone would explain it to ME. Because it completely escapes me. I am growing into the interpretation that the whole "magical monitoring" concept is a rather shabby device that Rowling is jerking around and rewriting to suit whatever she wants it to be at any given moment. And that's pretty much my point. Because it doesn't seem to be at all consistent as far as the information that we'vwe been given to date goes. If we look at the evidence so far; Book 1. For ten years Harry has been producing intermittent but highly noticable spontaneous magical "breakthroughs" and the Ministry of magic does *nothing* about any of them. Book 2. One floating pudding and Harry gets a nasty-gram threatening expulsion within five minutes of the incident. Furthermore, that floating pudding was produced wandlessly (House Elves are forbidden to have wands, remember?), how did the MOM come to the conclusion that this wasn't just another breakthrough? Book 3. Harry produces another and fairly spectacular breakthrough (wandlessly again, I might add), The Magical Reversal squad, complete with obliviators show up within the hour. Harry is reassured that no one seems to hold this against him and his Aunt Marge doesn't remember a thing. Is it just me, or are these incidents totally inconsistent with one another? What the hell is Rowling playing at? Huh? -JOdel, who realizes that by posting this there is a risk of looking totally foolish if OoP comes out with a full expose of hanky-panky in the Ministry Dept in charge of monitoring underage wizards. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sat Oct 5 07:16:18 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 08:16:18 +0100 Subject: The end of the WW Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44988 Hi all I was reading an essay on Generations on the HP lexicon and I had a thought. The WW has endured, in this century alone, two attacks from Dark Wizards and another one shaping up. How much damage can the WW take before they decide to disband? People could leave the WW and seek safety among the muggles, slowly forgetting magic. At what point does a society realize that there is no point in rebuilding anymore, another dark wizard is going to come along and smash it all up again? If Voldemort Concentrates on the WWs methods of communication, such as the floo network and the owls, not to mention subverting the Ministry of Magic, will many of the wizards just say 'the hell with it' and leave. Even if this 'worst-case' situation does not happen, when (if) Voldemort is defeated here, the public will lose all confidence in the MoM. There is no leader with the capability of Barty Crouch Snr, Fudge hardly inspires the same lowality or even respect/fear. Of course, the absence or collapse of the WW would have repercussions on the muggle world, as the magic creatures will no longer be held in check by the wizards. Mark Chadbourne, eay your heart out..... http://www.markchadbourn.com/news/31jul00.htm Just something while waiting for OoP. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oppen at mycns.net Sat Oct 5 08:24:42 2002 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 03:24:42 -0500 Subject: Ron and the Dress Robes from Hell Message-ID: <015e01c26c48$a8bb7da0$9d560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 44989 Me, I can remember being 14 and 15 very well, and how horribly embarrassing it would have been to have to wear obviously out-of-date clothes...particularly since I had a "Draco Malfoy" of my very own to make sure that everybody else noticed. However, I wonder why Ron doesn't think of something that I'd have thought of in a second, in his boots: the house-elves! I bet that if he and Harry asked Dobby for help, Dobby could either alter the robes to something more up-to-date and with a better color himself, or get the other house-elves to do it. "Yes, it is for Mr. Ron Wheezy, Harry Potter and Hermione Granger's very good friend!" I also wonder why Hermione didn't suggest it. Although she disapproves of the way the house-elves can be treated, she apparently has no problem with them working in and of itself. For that matter, could Transfiguration be used to alter the robes? I do think this is something that JKR didn't really think through very carefully *looking around uneasily lest cries of "Burn the heretic!" start echoing off the walls in here* because if I were at Hogwarts, and had clothes that were that unsuitable, I'd either start working with the Transfiguration skills I had, or approach someone I knew that _had_ such skills. I don't know that I'd trust Gred-and-Forge, but I bet Professor McGonagall would be willing to recommend someone he could ask. From htfulcher at comcast.net Sat Oct 5 01:47:12 2002 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 01:47:12 -0000 Subject: Magical Protection Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44990 Okay. I'll let this be my final msg on this thread (to the cheers of thousands!) In my last message I tried to contrast what is stated about the Fidelius Charm in Chapter 10 of Goblet of Fire with what is stated on the Harry Potter Lexicon Website. In her reply to this message Barb excised my comments to the following: Actually this is not what it says in canon. It is what the Harry Potter Lexicon says about it: "Complex and powerful charm that hides a person or persons completely; their location is known only to their designated 'Secret Keeper.'" (http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/spells_f.html#Fidelius ) Note that HPL states that the charm hides "a person or persons". This is not what Professor Flitwick says about the Charm in Prisoner of Azkaban. He manifestly does not say that the Fidelius Charm hides people. What he says is the following: "An immensely complex spell," he said squeakily, "involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keepr chooses to divulge it." (Prisoner of Azkaban, Chapter ten, "The Marauder's Map" page 152.) This is his definition of the Fidelius Charm. It involves concealment of information, not of persons. The antecedent of what "is henceforth impossible to find" is "information." In the case of the Potters the information was "James and Lily are living at...." If the particular use of the Charm in the case of the Potters was information as to their location, then as long as they stayed there they were safe. It says nothing about whether they would remain safe if they left the house. It also says nothing about whether they would remain safe if they passed on to others their whereabouts. In all other issues related to this topic in which I have differed with Barb I concede. But I still am certain Fidelius was one of the charms protecting Harry, at least up until he attended Hogwarts. MarEprhaim (sitting back, with folded arms, in Hargrid-like resolve) From shufan90 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 5 05:15:43 2002 From: shufan90 at yahoo.com (shufan) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 22:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magical protection In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021005020355.0096e490@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <20021005051543.12558.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44991 >MarEprhaim >(sitting back, with folded arms, in Hargrid-like resolve) -- GulPlum, taking up *exactly* the same stance. :-) (adding that his stance probably looks more impressive, due to being not dissimilar in size to Robbie Coltrane) :-) To add to an excellent posting and coversation, but not to fuel the fire any more on this particular topic, but to quote: "But how to get at Harry Potter? For he has been better protected than I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future. Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care. Not even I can touch him there..." (GoF US ed. Hardback, p. 657. Now, I have to agree with GulPlum that the Fidelius does not apply because Voldemort knows where Harry is. When the Fidelius was used for James and Lily the point was that Voldemort would not be able to find them. In this case Voldemort knows exactly where Harry is. So my question is, if Voldemort is aware that Dumbeldore has used an ancient magic and that he can't touch Harry at the Dursley's, then how? Voldemort has spent the last 13 years attempting to regain a form in which he can use a wand. So how would he know what magic Dumbledore used, and that he would be affected by it. Even using the uproved supposition that Mrs. Figg was protection, How does Voldemort have this knowledge? Is there another spy out there? If so who? jennifer (crossing her arms across her head for protection) ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ehawkes at iinet.net.au Sat Oct 5 07:28:15 2002 From: ehawkes at iinet.net.au (Emma Hawkes) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 15:28:15 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs Weasley In-Reply-To: <1033779250.10012.82737.m9@yahoogroups.com> References: <1033779250.10012.82737.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44992 Susanne merrily typed: >Her interactions with Ron, and then with Harry are just such >a contrast, and I'm sure it has a lot to do with Harry not being >her child and him not talking back to her or antagonizing >her. >We've all had different life experiences and I'm sure it >colors our perceptions of the characters in the books. Yep, I'd have to agree here. My sympathies are entirely with Mrs Weasley because my folks didn't have a lot of money when I was a kid and I know how hard they worked to try to smooth things over and how helpless (and therefore annoyed) they felt when they couldn't. Viz. the comment about going naked - that seems to me to be the product of anger at circumstances beyond her control rather than anger at Ron. emma From heidit at netbox.com Sat Oct 5 08:36:09 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 08:36:09 -0000 Subject: Ghosts and Avada Kedavra (Re: James & Lilly's ghost) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44993 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "arcum42" wrote: > My personal theory is that Avada Kedavra causes the persons soul to > evade their body and be sucked into the casters wand, leaving no > ghost behind at all. If this is the case, that would give him an even > better reason to go after Voldemort. Yes, this is something that many of us have discussed on this list in the past, and I'm in complete agreement with. Here's why: In canon, there are ghosts. In other words, ordinary wizards and witches know that there is some form of life after death. So of course, dying can be The Next Great Adventure - it's not a complete cessation of thought, awareness and relation to the living world, which is what many of us Muggles fear death might constitute. However, there's something scarier about Avada Kedavra which makes it worse than "regular" death to witches and wizards - otherwise, all types of homicide would lead to a term in Azkaban, not just performing the AK curse. Catlady's done lists of ways to kill another without the AK curse. Why aren't those as heavily punishable? (yes, I know - perhaps they are, but it does seem that JKR really made an effort to show, in GoF, that the AK curse was specifcally "Unforgivable" and thus worse than other forms of magical homicide. And it's logical to think that either being trapped in the wand (or possibly the total immolation of the soul so that ghosthood or other consciousness-after-death is impossible, but that wouldn't explain the echos) is the likely result of the AK curse. No, it's not canon-definite, but it does, IMHO, make sense. heidi http://www.fictionalley.org From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sat Oct 5 08:41:50 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 09:41:50 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magical Protection References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44994 If all the Fidelius charm does is hide information, than its practically useless. If all peter had was a location, Voldemort could have found the information some other way. It would not have provided any protection for the potters if they were discovered by accident. I suspect that there must be far more to the Fidelius charm than we have been told. Perhaps the potters were inside a pocket dimension or force wall that only the secret keeper could - willingly - breach. That would keep them far more safe than just hiding where they are. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: marephraim To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 2:47 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magical Protection Okay. I'll let this be my final msg on this thread (to the cheers of thousands!) In my last message I tried to contrast what is stated about the Fidelius Charm in Chapter 10 of Goblet of Fire with what is stated on the Harry Potter Lexicon Website. In her reply to this message Barb excised my comments to the following: Actually this is not what it says in canon. It is what the Harry Potter Lexicon says about it: "Complex and powerful charm that hides a person or persons completely; their location is known only to their designated 'Secret Keeper.'" (http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/spells_f.html#Fidelius ) Note that HPL states that the charm hides "a person or persons". This is not what Professor Flitwick says about the Charm in Prisoner of Azkaban. He manifestly does not say that the Fidelius Charm hides people. What he says is the following: "An immensely complex spell," he said squeakily, "involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keepr chooses to divulge it." (Prisoner of Azkaban, Chapter ten, "The Marauder's Map" page 152.) This is his definition of the Fidelius Charm. It involves concealment of information, not of persons. The antecedent of what "is henceforth impossible to find" is "information." In the case of the Potters the information was "James and Lily are living at...." If the particular use of the Charm in the case of the Potters was information as to their location, then as long as they stayed there they were safe. It says nothing about whether they would remain safe if they left the house. It also says nothing about whether they would remain safe if they passed on to others their whereabouts. In all other issues related to this topic in which I have differed with Barb I concede. But I still am certain Fidelius was one of the charms protecting Harry, at least up until he attended Hogwarts. MarEprhaim (sitting back, with folded arms, in Hargrid-like resolve) ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 5 09:34:48 2002 From: myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com (Moonstruck) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 02:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Ginny Weasley Quotient (some SHIP) In-Reply-To: <006d01c26c21$7705e1f0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> Message-ID: <20021005093448.31471.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44995 Pippin said: <<<<<<<>>>>>>> Penny said: <<<<>>>> Me: I'm not sure Ginny's lack of giggles and blushing necessarily indicates increased maturity or growing sophistication in her dealings with Harry. On the contrary, I would think Ginny's reaction to Harry's last-minute need for a Yule Ball date to be a just as troublesome and over-reactive. Granted, she has a terrible crush on Harry and she wishes Harry would notice her as something more than "Ron's Little Sister." I think we've all been there in one way or another and it's no fun. Little things make you twinge and feel discouraged. Nonetheless, it seems to me than anyone with a developed sense of reality and maturity and a genuine concern for Harry *as a unique individual, not a hero* would have had the sensibilities to take a more thoughtful and less self-absorbed view of Harry's dilemma. Perhaps I'm expecting too much from a thirteen year old experiencing her first crush, but there are gaping holes of logic and sensibility in her seeming devastation that Harry needs a date to the Yule Ball and she's all ready taken. Ginny's baselessly assuming that Harry would have asked her to the ball if she wasn't all ready going with Neville. I could understand her having a little disappointment that she were "out of the running," so to speak, if there were even the slimest chance. But what reason does she have to actually believe Harry would've even considered her? He doesn't really have any kind of friendship with her, outside of the fact that she's Ron's sister. He has consistently and from their first meeting either ignored, been embarrassed by, or shrugged off all of the glaring indications that she fancies him. She doesn't even seem to move in the same orbit with Harry. Sure, she's a year younger than Harry, so he's less likely to be around her, but we see more of the Creevey brothers than we do of her. She's essentially a non-entity in Harry's life. How is it, then, that anyone with the tiniest shred of logic would actually assume that the likelihood of Harry asking her were great enough that she should get so obviously bent out of shape and go hide in her room? I don't think it's too much to expect of Ginny that, despite her feelings for Harry, she be able to acknowledge the reality of the situation and react like a reasonable human being. Instead, she's thrown into a misery so great that she immediately loses the ability to carry on a conversation with Ron and Harry or even be in Harry presence. I just think her emotional intensity is neither reasonable nor mature given her lack of evidence that he would consider asking her. And her reaction strikes me as just as childish as the giggling and blushing. The problem with Ginny, in my mind, is that she's guilty of the behavior so many exhibit around Harry and that he abhors. She doesn't know Harry. Her interest in Harry is not for the qualities that *really* make him Harry Potter, but for the mythic, heroic persona that the WW has thrust upon him. To her, he's an idea, not an actual person. Sure she's only 13, but Ron and Hermione, at 11, knew of Harry's reputation and still managed to forge layered, complex relationships with him as an individual. They weren't so terribly blinded by his celebrity that they couldn't see past it to the real person. If Ginny *did* have any genuine concern for Harry, she would she would have acknowledged, based on a three-dimentional, fleshed out, unselfish understanding of Harry, the unlikelihood of Harry asking her to the ball. She would be surely be a bit disappointed, but be able to put a realistic spin on the situation. In being so wrapped up in the superficiality of Harry's public image, she negates his voice, his very existence as an individual. She either ignores or dismisses Harry's uncomfortable and uninterested pattern of behavior toward her because she wrapped up in this dream vision of him as her knight in shining armor. She disrespects his need to be understood, beyond The Boy Who Lived hysteria, as a *living boy*. I don't assume that any of these behaviors are intentional on Ginny's part. She's not a bad kid. I don't think she has the self-awareness to understand to shallowness of her emotions for Harry. In other words, if she's *ever* going to be the girl for Harry, she's got a lot of growing to do. -Jessica ===== "Oh, I'll settle down with some old story/About a boy who's just like me/Thought there was love in everything and everyone/You're so naive!/After a while they always get it/They always reach a sorry end/Still it was worth it as I turned the pages solemnly, and then/With a winning smile, the boy/With naivety succeeds/At the final moment, I cried/I always cry at endings" - "Get Me Away From Here I'm Dying," Belle and Sebastian __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat Oct 5 10:22:58 2002 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 10:22:58 -0000 Subject: Men/Women interests In-Reply-To: <76FF1E95-D775-11D6-96DA-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44996 Strangely, though Sirius is the character who > has *actually* been tortured, I find him less fascinating than the other > two. I think this must be because I perceive him as more traditionally > masculine, and too much testosterone bores me. Okay, he's a bit volatile. And there's that whole lingering biker image. But, this is a guy who calls himself Snuffles, not Killer or Flesh-Ripper. And, I can't find it now, but isn't there a mention somewhere in Gof that he signed a note to Harry with a pawprint? JKR may portray Sirius as having that traditional masculinity, but she's leavened that with what strikes me as a certain streak of whimsy. Marianne From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Oct 5 11:11:46 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 11:11:46 -0000 Subject: Magical protection -- the Dursleys -Misc In-Reply-To: <20021004214453.13238.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44997 First let me say that I am aware that I am replying to this post in a round about way. While I don't necessarily address peoples comment directly, I think I still make some valid points. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barb P wrote: > > marephraim wrote: > > However, does your reply address the point that Dumbledore doesn't appear to care how Harry's treated, even after knowing about it? > > > Barb P replies: > > I didn't address the point because I think Dumbledore isn't concerned about it. bboy_mn with rambling thoughts: First, I don't think Dumbledore really know what happened to Harry at the Dursley's in detail. I'm sure he knows it's not pleasant, and I'm sure he knows Harry is not happy there. But I don't get the idea that he as knowledge of a lot of specific events. Next, Dumbledore has a high opinion of Harry. Harry destroyed Voldie at age one. Out smarted him at age 12. And generally, made a fool of Big_V at every encounter. The boy who stood cold and (sort of) fearless in the face of the greatest force of evil, can surely handle a drill salesman and his fat son. So, I think Dumbledore has confidence that Harry has a strong enough character to deal with 2 month of misery a year. Plus, things are getting better for Harry at the Dursley's. As he realizes his true self, he is less willing to take crap from them. And the Durley's are becoming aware that Harry isn't a helpless little boy anymore, so they are backing off if for no other reason than they are afraid of Harry. So while Harry's desire to escape the misery is greatly increasing, the misery itself is decreasing. Harry is protected at the Dursley's, even Big_V admits he can't touch Harry there, so the question Dumbledore must ask himself, is it better for Harry to die happy, or to live miserable for a couple of month out of the year? Seems like an easy choice. -end bboy_mn- > Barb P quotes canon: > > Voldemort also used this phrase to refer to the protection Harry has on Privet Drive. In the same chapter you site, he says,- "... For he has been better protected than I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future. Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care. Not even I can touch him there..." bboy_mn replies: Based on Voldemort's statement, it would seem that Harry's location is not a secret. Voldemort knows Harry is at the Dursley's, he just can't do anything about it. Notice that Voldemort said he can't TOUCH Harry their. He didn't say he couldn't see, find, or detect him there. Admittedly, one could say that the turn of a phrase doesn't create absolute truth. But the implication seems to be that he can't harm Harry, not that he can't find him. While people have made good arguements for the possibility of a Fidelius Charm, I think it's a stretch. Some ancient and powerful magic is definitely protecting Harry there, but he is too easy to find, and has been seen by too many wizard people for him to be protected by a 'secret'. Personally, and not supported by canon, I think it is some kind of shield charm; some type of barrier that prevents Voldemort from getting to Harry even if he knows where he is and can see him. I do see some weaknesses in this theory and I can also see how it could be twisted to imply a Fidelius Charm, but I'm still having a hard time accepting something as limited as the Fidelius Charm. I know I haven't back up anything with real evidence, but I just don't see Harry being at the Dursley's as being secret enough to be protected by a Secret Keeper Charm. It's going to be interesting to find out what that 'ancient magic' really is. -end bboy_mn- Sorry, just a few rambling thoughts. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Oct 5 12:20:15 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 12:20:15 -0000 Subject: Ron and the Dress Robes from Hell In-Reply-To: <015e01c26c48$a8bb7da0$9d560043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 44998 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: ERIC OPPEN wisely said: > ...edited... > However, I wonder why Ron doesn't think of something that I'd > have thought of in a second, in his boots: the house-elves! > I bet that if he and Harry asked Dobby for help, Dobby could > either alter the robes to something more up-to-date and with > a better color himself, or get the other house-elves to do it. > > ...edited... > > For that matter, could Transfiguration be used to alter the robes? > ... edited... I bet Professor McGonagall would be willing to > recommend someone he could ask. bboy_mn relpies: Let see, how can I respond without this turning into the always forbidden 'Me Too' post. Oh well... me too, me too, me too, .... I've had this same thought. He could have very discreetly, talked to Hermione, or taken Professor McGonagall off to the side, and asked for help. His brothers knew how to get to the kitchens, so they certainly knew how to get to the house elves, and I'm sure the house elves would have love to do it for him. 'Great! More work; we love work. We'd love to help you Ron.' The only thing I could come up with to justify Ron's actions or inactions is 'He's a kid.'. To some extend, kids live in their own private little world. So, as a kid, he wouldn't think of going to an adult for help. Still, his brothers, after much teasing, would have surely help. Hermione, if asked, would have certainly tried to do something, or made a suggestion. But being the stubbon kid he is, Ron just threw them in his trunk and ignored them until it was too late. I'm still with you thought, just ask the elves, it would have solved everything. bboy_mn From Calypso8604 at aol.com Sat Oct 5 12:36:56 2002 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 08:36:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron and the Dress Robes from Hell Message-ID: <69.2e4eeb11.2ad036e8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 44999 Eric Oppen said: > > However, I wonder why Ron doesn't think of something that I'd > > have thought of in a second, in his boots: the house-elves! > > I bet that if he and Harry asked Dobby for help, Dobby could > > either alter the robes to something more up-to-date and with > > a better color himself, or get the other house-elves to do it. > > > > ...edited... > > > > For that matter, could Transfiguration be used to alter the robes? > > ... edited... I bet Professor McGonagall would be willing to > > recommend someone he could ask. Hum. . . I had always assumed that things witches and wizards bought in the wizarding world couldn't be altered. Wouldn't be very economic for retailers to sell stuff that customers can just change to their liking all the time-- they wouldn't make any money that way! I think that things like robes probably have some type of magic woven in them to keep people from transfiguring them or trying to alter them too much like Ron tried with cursing off the lace and ending up with uneven sleeves Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 5 13:11:30 2002 From: myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com (Moonstruck) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 06:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Of Socks and Spiders and Celebrity Message-ID: <20021005131130.7602.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45000 I went back through the archives and couldn't find any posts that shared my particular slant on this topic. If, however, I've overlooked a message that hits on the same ideas I am about to, you have my full permission to track me down and hit *me* BTW, I have a feeling this ones gonna be a doozy, so if youre in it for the long haul, Id suggest finding a comfortable chair. Some of my ideas are kind of sketchy. Im going off of clues from the HP books and some research on symbolism. Hopefully Ill be able to get my point across in a semi-coherent manner. Okaythe matter of the socks ties in with many of the themes in the series: the downside of celebrity/pre-judgment, freedom through individuality, the love and acceptance of family and those who know you best, and the harm of underestimating the value of these things. I believe Dobbys liberation in CoS best illustrates the basic meaning of the socks. Harrys gift of the sock, not only sets him free from his service to the Malfoys, it symbolizes Harrys recognition of Dobby as an autonomous being with a distinct identity that is separate from his masters. In doing so, Harry grants Dobby the right to exert control and choice over his life. He sets him free to go out in the world and create his own destiny. In this way, the sock is the perfect concrete symbol for socks are warm and protect our feet from cold and rain. They offer us protection as we make our way in the world. Similarly, there is a symbolic significance to Harrys removal of a spider from one of his socks at the beginning of SS/PS. Ive checked a couple sources on symbolism and found that the spider encompasses a great many ideas across the world. The one I found to be most fitting with the HP books is the spider as a messenger of fate (I dont have that completely mapped out with all the other books -- Im still trying to flesh that one out a bit more). Thus, the spider on Harrys sock indicates to him that he will be given the same freedom Dobby is given. And, indeed, Harry does get that freedom. He is taken from an existence where he not only doesn't know his real identity, but is really discouraged from having any identity whatsoever (besides that, perhaps, of whipping boy not much better than Dobbys lot in life). Hagrid is Harrys guide to freedom and identity as separate from both the Dursleys *and* his celebrity in the WW (another force that robs Harry of individuality and honest admiration). Notice Hagrid makes very little mention of Harrys living legacy and is even uncomfortable discussing it instead, his fondness for the boy is based on Harrys essential character. Then we have Dumbledore, who says he sees himself holding thick, wool socks when he looks into the Mirror of Erised. You see, though Dumbledore seems almost God-like he is human and he has human needs and desires. Dumbledore, like Harry, suffers from the stigma of celebrity. Keep in mind, the first real information we get about who Dumbledore is comes from the Famous Witches and Wizards Cards that come with the Chocolate Frogs. This is where we first hear Dumbledore referred to as being [C]onsidered the greatest wizard of modern time. The card details Dumbledores exploits as a great wizard, but leaves only a sentence actually describing him and it hardly captures the whimsy and benevolence of Dumbledores personality (SS/PS 102-3). We get a sense that Dumbledore has been locked into the identity of The Greatest Wizard of Modern Time and very few people bother to look beyond that when dealing with him -- just as Harry is locked into being The Boy Who Lived. For instance, Dumbledore bemoans to Harry the fact that all anyone ever gives him is books he would rather have socks. Books are what people think The Greatest Wizard of Modern Time would want. Its a quick, relatively meaningless gift. Socks, however, mean everything in the world. They mean that theres someone out there who recognizes Dumbledores true nature and cares enough to give him the proper protection before he heads out into the world to meet and create his individual fate. Thus, we understand his meaning when he says One can never have enough socks. (SS/PS 214) Now, let's consider Ron. In GoF he gets a pair of socks from his parents and dismissively throws them to the side. Later, he gives his socks away to Dobby. This shows Rons lack of appreciation for the people in his life who know him the best as a real individual and the love and protection symbolized in their gift of socks. Just as Harrys sock answered his dream of being loved and acknowledged as Harry, Rons lack of appreciation for his socks shows his desire to have the very thing Harry flees from celebrity. But thats a mistake. Both Dumbledore and Harry have fame, but it brings them very little happiness and even less genuine recognition. I believe the meaning of the Weasley sweaters are in the same vein, except they are even more meaningful of love and identification because Molly Weasley makes them herself she makes sacrifices to give her children love and protection and identity. Theyre warm and protecting and with the first initials of each of the Weasley children on each childs sweater it is a specific statement of love and recognition to that one person. Rons sweater is Rons. Fred couldn't wear it. Neither could George or Percy. It was made specially for him and is, thus, an expression his mothers love for the unique and specific individual Ron is. Of course, Ron is unappreciative of this gesture as well (so, interestingly enough, is Percy in SS/PH Fred and George however are perfectly happy with their sweaters and wear them proudly [T]heyre lovely and warm, 202). And, thus, Dobbys Christmas gift of handmade socks to Harry expresses his appreciation of Harry as the caring, generous individual who gave Dobby freedom. This is made more so meaningful by the fact that Dobby (a) used the money he was earning from Dumbledore to buy yarn for the socks, (b) used his time and energy to make them, and (c) even went as far as personalizing Harrys socks with Golden Snitches and Broomsticks. Dobby could have just as easily bought Harry a pair of socks instead of going to the trouble of making them himself, but the fact that he didnt exemplifies his genuine and honest love for the person Harry is. And, again, these socks are Harrys specifically. They were made for him in mind. Just like Rons sweater is for him. I meant to go into further detail about the spiders, but I dont want to go one forever. Im curious for opinions on this: if, as I believe, spiders are a symbol of fate. What does that mean for Ron, Neville, and Hermione who all volunteered information about the unforgivable curses and saw them executed on spiders? Does that mean Hermione is going to die? Will Ron be hit with the Imperious Curse or Neville the Cruciatus? And with Rons deathly fear of spiders, does that really mean hes frightened of his fate? -Jessica :-) ===== "Oh, I'll settle down with some old story/About a boy who's just like me/Thought there was love in everything and everyone/You're so naive!/After a while they always get it/They always reach a sorry end/Still it was worth it as I turned the pages solemnly, and then/With a winning smile, the boy/With naivety succeeds/At the final moment, I cried/I always cry at endings" - "Get Me Away From Here I'm Dying," Belle and Sebastian __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From vixinalizardqueen at hotmail.com Sat Oct 5 13:03:03 2002 From: vixinalizardqueen at hotmail.com (vixinalizardqueen) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 13:03:03 -0000 Subject: The Ginny Weasley Quotient (some SHIP) In-Reply-To: <20021005093448.31471.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45001 Jessica: > Nonetheless, it seems to me than anyone with a > developed sense of reality and maturity and a genuine > concern for Harry *as a unique individual, not a hero* > would have had the sensibilities to take a more > thoughtful and less self-absorbed view of Harry's > dilemma. I think that's an unfair dismissal of Ginny, considering she actually showed a suprising degree of integrity by not just saying "Ok, I'll go dump Neville, then I'll go with Harry!" She could very well have done that, and I'm sure it would have been incredibly tempting! Imagine if you were 13 and your favourite movie star was at your school, and needed a date, and you were one of his last chances but you were already taken? I think anybody (let alone a thirteen year old) would be pretty gutted, to say the least, at this situation. I don't see how you interpret her reactions as "self absorbed". If she really was self absorbed, she would have done what I suggested- dump Neville in favour of Harry. Jessica: > what reason does she have to actually believe Harry > would've even considered her? How about the fact that he is *desperate*, and Ron has just suggested "Ginny, you can go with Harry..."? I don't think Harry is cruel enough to just say right in front of her "no, no you're not good enough!" if she had been free, and accepted! Plus she is, in a way, friends with Harry...she's spent more time with him than Parvati, whom Harry ends up taking.....Why not Ginny?! I firmly believe he would have taken her if it weren't for Neville....he may not have liked it, but he would have taken her! Jessica: > Instead, she's thrown into a misery so great that she > immediately loses the ability to carry on a > conversation with Ron and Harry or even be in Harry > presence. I also interpreted that some of Ginny's distress is due to the fact that Ron and Harry have just been saying "who would go to the dance with Neville?". That's actually incredibly embarrassing, and insulting to Ginny (even though they don't realise it). How small would you feel after hearing that your date, no matter why you're going with him, is thought of like that? Jessica: > The problem with Ginny, in my mind, is that she's > guilty of the behavior so many exhibit around Harry > and that he abhors. I don't think Ginny's behaviour around Harry is any worse than Harry's behaviour around Cho Chang. What does Harry really know about Cho? Have we ever seen him have a long, intelligent conversation with her? Does Harry see past the fact that she's pretty, or that she's a good Quidditch player, to her real, inner self? Not to my knowledge, but he still has a huge crush on her, and makes, in my opinion, even more of a fool of himself when asking her to the ball than Ginny has ever made around Harry. Harry, at least, is used to that kind of behaviour, and has had a conversation (admittedly, not an incredibly deep one, but still a conversation!) with Ginny before. Cho would have just thought Harry was a strange little 4th year when he stumbled over his words while asking her to the ball. The Lizard Queen. On behalf of the Ginnys of the world. From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 5 14:31:11 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 14:31:11 -0000 Subject: Magical protection (Wizard clocks) In-Reply-To: <20021005051543.12558.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45002 MarEprhaim ended: >(sitting back, with folded arms, in Hargrid-like resolve) Then GulPlum ended: >taking up *exactly* the same stance. :-) (adding that his stance probably looks more impressive, due to being not dissimilar in size to Robbie Coltrane) :-) With jennifer cowering: >(crossing her arms across her head for protection) Given the state of those entering this thread, I tiptoe in with a thought on Harry's magical protection and the indirect knowledge of his well being. We all know the Wealseys have a clock that tells the general state of each member of the family. The clock has eight hands for each member and can some how report on how and what each member is doing. Now, from PS/SS we know that Dumbledore has a pocket watch with the same purpose. He looks at it and sees that Hagrid is late. Now if Dumbledore has a watch with a Hagrid hand on it who is taking precious baby Potter to the Dursleys, maybe it stands to reason that Dumbledore also has a hand on his watch for Harry, or even that Dumbledore is reading that hand when he does look at the pocketwatch. From this watch Dumbledore can watch Harry's general state of being out or in Hogwarts. Now, we also know that Mrs. Figg was crossing Privet Drive in PS/SS with her broken leg and crutches when Dudley ran her over with his bike. At that time, Harry was shut up in the cupboard with no food except when he stealthly escaped at night to get food. So, maybe she also has one of these speical watches to assist in the guarding of Harry. She would have seen that Harry was not being treated well and went over to check on him. Seems only fitting and a good tool to have given the circumstances. I know this is not an answer for the "ancient magic" protecting Harry, but it does help explain why Dumbledore and the WW always knows where Harry is and whether he is in trouble. The magical tool does aid in Harry's general survival. Melody Who timidly feels that GulPlum made the better arguement about the Fidelius charm but does not want to cause a Hagrid on Hagrid war. Imagine all the magical creatures that will come out of the woodwork. From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 5 15:10:37 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 15:10:37 -0000 Subject: Men/Women interests In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45003 Marianne wrote: >>> Okay, he's a bit volatile. And there's that whole lingering biker image. But, this is a guy who calls himself Snuffles, not Killer or Flesh-Ripper. And, I can't find it now, but isn't there a mention somewhere in Gof that he signed a note to Harry with a pawprint? JKR may portray Sirius as having that traditional masculinity, but she's leavened that with what strikes me as a certain streak of whimsy. <<< Now me: "Yes! Yes, yes, yes! Ahem. Erm, well. Sorry about the...enthusiasm there." (To quote the recently missing Elkins) :) That's what I've been trying to put to words for so long. It is Sirius' whimsy that I find so appealing. Yes, he is dark and handsome. Yes, he is smart and dashing. Yes, he is passionate and driven. But it is his whimsy and light hand with Harry that gets to me. Granted, Black is not as whimsical as say Hagrid is in his contrast of impressions, but Black does not beat the drum of masculinity as the only way to travel. Black is masculine just because he is. He is not faking. He is a man that feeds off his own emotions and can, dare I say it, say that he loves another man without it sounding at all sexual. Find many a masculine man that will do that. They are few and far between where I live which I guess is not a fair comparison since I do live in Texas which is ever the masculine state if there was one. Black is anything if not earnest. He knows his heart and knows his strength. That muddy paw print (He sent it to Harry as good luck for Task #3) demonstrates that Black is in it for Harry. He thinks not only about Harry's physical survival, but his needs for support and love. Black even stands guard at Harry's hospital bed at the end of GoF not wanting to leave his side. Only upon Dumbledore's request does he leave. So yes, Black is quite masculine and brutish, but he has a direct heart and gentle hand. All a girl needs really. Melody Who will stand with bugaloo37 anyday to defend Black's name From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Sat Oct 5 15:14:33 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 16:14:33 +0100 Subject: Magical protection (Wizard clocks) In-Reply-To: References: <20021005051543.12558.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021005160000.00982b60@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45004 At 14:31 05/10/02 +0000, Melody tiptoes into the thread: >MarEprhaim ended: > >(sitting back, with folded arms, in Hargrid-like resolve) > >Then GulPlum ended: > >taking up *exactly* the same stance. :-) >(adding that his stance probably looks more impressive, due to being >not dissimilar in size to Robbie Coltrane) :-) > >With jennifer cowering: > >(crossing her arms across her head for protection) I wonder why jennifer and Melody are so trepidatious. MarEprhaim and I are just sitting here in steely resolve. Our poses aren't in the *slightest bit* aggressive. :-) >Now, we also know that Mrs. Figg was crossing Privet Drive in PS/SS >with her broken leg and crutches when Dudley ran her over with his >bike. At that time, Harry was shut up in the cupboard with no food >except when he stealthly escaped at night to get food. So, maybe she >also has one of these special watches to assist in the guarding of >Harry. She would have seen that Harry was not being treated well and >went over to check on him. Seems only fitting and a good tool to have >given the circumstances. However, I raise the point I made earlier: where was she when Harry ran away after the Aunt Marge incident, and how come Harry was left stranded in the middle of the street in the middle of the night, scared out of his wits by a big black dog staring at him out of the shadows? It was a pure fluke that he fell and accidentally called the Knight Bus. I'm not disputing that Mrs Figg is involved in Harry's protection in some way but I don't see her being in possession of anything specific to warn her when he's in trouble. >I know this is not an answer for the "ancient magic" protecting Harry, >but it does help explain why Dumbledore and the WW always knows where >Harry is and whether he is in trouble. The magical tool does aid in >Harry's general survival. Actually, they don't always know where he is. He caused significant consternation when he was on the Knight Bus (which is part of the wizarding world, I may add). From msbonsai at mninter.net Sat Oct 5 15:04:52 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 15:04:52 -0000 Subject: The end of the WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45005 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: How much damage can the WW take before they decide to disband? People could leave the WW and seek safety among the muggles, slowly forgetting magic. Me: Seems to me the magic is something genetic. So even if they somehow "forgot" they were magic, weird things could continue to happen, just as they happened to Harry when he had no clue. Don't you think someone evil could figure out they are magical and rise up? And then what happens? We have no trained wizards because we closed down all the schools?? Just because they loose confidence in one person does not mean they will never find another one to have confidence in. Perhaps after it all clears, Sirius could be? What about Harry? Politics has always been, and will be, politics. MrsBonsai(Julie) From rvotaw at i-55.com Sat Oct 5 15:46:12 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 10:46:12 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magic Detection/ Ron and the dress robes/ Socks and Celebrity (and sweaters) References: <80.229b7898.2acfe117@aol.com> Message-ID: <003101c26c86$556cb400$44a1cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45006 Jodel writes: > Book 1. For ten years Harry has been producing intermittent but highly > noticable spontaneous magical "breakthroughs" and the Ministry of magic does > *nothing* about any of them. True, but he wasn't in school yet. I mean, look at the Quidditch World Cup. There were toddlers running around doing magic, no owls came flying through. Maybe they're more strictly monitored because of the fact that they're in school and now know what they're doing, particularly in the case of a Muggle born or a child raised by Muggles like Harry. > Book 2. One floating pudding and Harry gets a nasty-gram threatening > expulsion within five minutes of the incident. Furthermore, that floating > pudding was produced wandlessly (House Elves are forbidden to have wands, > remember?), how did the MOM come to the conclusion that this wasn't just > another breakthrough? This was the first time magic had been done at Harry's residence since his admission to Hogwarts and the knowledge of the WW. First time anything magical had been done since he knew he wasn't supposed to do it. > Book 3. Harry produces another and fairly spectacular breakthrough > (wandlessly again, I might add), The Magical Reversal squad, complete with > obliviators show up within the hour. Harry is reassured that no one seems to > hold this against him and his Aunt Marge doesn't remember a thing. Well, at the time half the MOM was out looking for Sirius Black, who everyone thought was after Harry. So therefore when they did find him they were so vastly relieved that he was in one piece that instead of a slap on the wrist he gets a pat on the head so to speak. Eric Oppen writes: > that unsuitable, I'd either start working with the Transfiguration skills I > had, or approach someone I knew that _had_ such skills. I don't know that > I'd trust Gred-and-Forge, but I bet Professor McGonagall would be willing to > recommend someone he could ask. Then Calypso wrote: > Hum. . . I had always assumed that things witches and wizards bought in the > wizarding world couldn't be altered. Wouldn't be very economic for retailers > to sell stuff that customers can just change to their liking all the time-- > they wouldn't make any money that way! I think that things like robes > probably have some type of magic woven in them to keep people from > transfiguring them or trying to alter them too much like Ron tried with > cursing off the lace and ending up with uneven sleeves I always figured Ron just wasn't quite up to tailoring standards with his Severing Charm. While it is possible that WW clothes can't be magically altered, surely they could still be adapted somewhat, like removing the lace. I think it was a matter of pride on Ron's part that he wouldn't go to someone for help. While I can't quite see any of the fellow Gryffindors, other than perhaps Hermione, managing something with those robes, if he had put his pride in check McGonagall would've helped I'm sure. All he'd have had to do was summon a few sniffles and she'd have taken care of it. However, that calls for a major ego issue, so he just did it himself and went with frayed sleeves. Jessica writes: > Then we have Dumbledore, who says he sees himself > holding thick, wool socks when he looks into the > Mirror of Erised. You see, though Dumbledore seems > almost God-like he is human and he has human needs and > desires. While it's all a good theory, we still have only Dumbledore's word for what he saw in the mirror. Even Harry doubted he'd told the truth, it was extremely personal. Jessica writes again: > and identity. They're warm and protecting and - with > the first initials of each of the Weasley children on > each child's sweater - it is a specific statement of > love and recognition to that one person. Ron's sweater > is Ron's. Fred couldn't wear it. Neither could George > or Percy. It was made specially for him and is, thus, > an expression his mother's love for the unique and > specific individual Ron is. Of course, Ron is While I'm sure it's true that a great deal of love and labor goes into these sweaters that Molly makes, and they are individualized, but still they're always the same. Ron always gets a maroon sweater with an R on it. I don't think Ron really is tossing away affection by not appreciating the things his mother makes him, he's probably just tired of it. After all, Fred and George had to shove Percy's sweater on him, so it's not just Ron. I'm assuming Molly makes these sweaters every year, even before the kids started at Hogwarts, so does that mean that Ron's had 14 years of maroon sweaters with an R on them? A little variety, please! He's had at least four we know. All the same. Harry's had four sweaters too, all different. Why? Harry'd have been just as pleased to have four green sweaters with H's on them to match the Weasleys I'm sure. But they aren't all the same, they're all different. I love Molly, but I don't understand everything she does. Or maybe everything she *doesn't* do. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Sat Oct 5 15:42:48 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 16:42:48 +0100 Subject: Application of lessons Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021005161609.00a45220@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45007 A random thought occurred to me earlier about the Trio putting into practice what they've been learning in classes. For instance (and these examples aren't meant to be an exhaustive listing!): In Book One, the kids learn Wingardium Leviosa in Charms. Later on, Ron puts it to good use when fighting the Troll. Hermione knows about the Devil's Snare from Herbology. In Book Two, they learn of the polyjuice in Potions, and Hermione makes it; they learn all about Mandrakes in Herbology. In Book Three, there's the Patronus etc. In Book Four, in DADA Harry learns inter alia how to throw off Imperius, without which he'd not have survived the encounter with Voldemort. Even what they learn in Divination, a subject which Harry & Ron disparage, teaches them a few things, not to mention Trelawney's Second Prediction (which makes us all wonder about what the First was, and JKR has already said that it's important). Now, my point is this: of everything on the Hogwarts curriculum, the one subject they've not applied *at all* in their adventures is Transfiguration. It's presented as an important subject and we witness at least once lesson in each of the books. Yet Hermione, who appears quite good at it, hasn't found a use for it a single time yet. In a roundabout way, this ties in with a thread a few days ago in which I nominated McGonagall for "unnecessary character" status (I admit that the connection only just occurred to me having written all of the above). I'm therefore wondering: is Transfiguration as useless to the plot as its teacher, or is JKR deliberately holding back and saving up Transfiguration (and McGonagall) for a BANGY moment at the climax of the series? -- GulPlum, giving up on his Hagrid-like stance from the Magical Protection thread as he's getting a bit numb. :-) From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 5 15:44:40 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 15:44:40 -0000 Subject: Magical protection (Wizard clocks) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021005160000.00982b60@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45008 I wrote originally: >>>>I know this is not an answer for the "ancient magic" protecting Harry, but it does help explain why Dumbledore and the WW always knows where Harry is and whether he is in trouble. The magical tool does aid in Harry's general survival.<<<< Then GulPlum pointed out: >>>Actually, they don't always know where he is. He caused significant consternation when he was on the Knight Bus (which is part of the wizarding world, I may add).<<<< I concede: Well the Weasley clock does not tell what trouble they are in when it is on the 12 o'clock position of mortal peril. It just says Mortal Peril. Lot of help that does really. So, given that that is our only model to ponder from, I wonder if Dumbledore's watch has that same label and in PoA, Harry's hand clicked to mortal peril and they all raced around to find him. They got to house and see him gone. By the time they are there, Potter is on the bus. Frantic and scared they wake up Fudge even and search all around. Seems a Muggle tracking device might help the wizards a little there... So I will agree that Dumbledore doesn't know exactly where Harry is all the time or else he could of apparated to the graveyard and helped Potter out. But the wizard watch is still plausible by alerting the MoM that Potter was in mortal peril or at least out of his "protective circle". And GulPlum said also: >>>>I'm not disputing that Mrs Figg is involved in Harry's protection in some way but I don't see her being in possession of anything specific to warn her when he's in trouble.<<<< Me: Very true. She does seem to be in the dark on Harry's escape in PoA, but then again it is late. She can't watch him 24/7. Maybe she has an off time where she can rest, and another wizard watches from afar like a home security system and can alert the right people. Of course if I am to continue with this wizard watch theory, which I intend to do, then I wonder if there is an alarm that goes off if any of the hands click on to 12 o'clock. That would wake her up and send her running to Privet Drive. Of course there is the possiblility she was late getting there. Her cats could of formed an alliance against her and blocked her from exiting. Adding to the frenzy search. The first line of defense Mrs. Figg was out and down, again, and they went to plan B. Ok, ok I am prattling on a bit much here. But there must be an explanation for the lapse in security. And then GulPlum also added: >>>>I wonder why jennifer and Melody are so trepidatious. MarEprhaim and I are just sitting here in steely resolve. Our poses aren't in the *slightest bit* aggressive. :-) <<< Me: Yeah, sure. At anytime now, y'all both will start knitting large yellow blankets in subways and carrying pink umbrellas to soften your image. :) Melody From myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 5 17:31:06 2002 From: myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com (Moonstruck) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 10:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Ginny Weasley Quotient (some SHIP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021005173106.52168.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45009 The Lizard Queen said: <<< Imagine if you were 13 and your favourite movie star was at your school, and needed a date, and you were one of his last chances but you were already taken? I think anybody (let alone a thirteen year old) would be pretty gutted, to say the least, at this situation.>>> Me: That, indeed, is the problem. Harry doesn't *want* to be anybody's movie star. When you're "in love" with a movie star you have absolutely no conception of who or what that person really is. It's a very superficial kind of affection. And that's one of the problems that's plagued Harry since coming to the WW. He wants real, meaty relationships he's been denied all his life, not fans. I think that's why he's been somewhat distant around Ginny in the past. He's not comfortable having that kind of adoration heaped on him based almost exclusively because of his fame (and perhaps Ron's input). I'm not supposing that Ginny can't change, but that, at this point, she's not yet aware that there's a difference between Harry *The Boy Who Lived* and Harry *awkward, insecure 14 year old*. Also, I don't think it's indicated anywhere in the text that Harry himself considers Ginny a last chance option. Ron suggests it, but we have no indication either way regarding Harry's feelings about that. And even before that, just the mention that Harry asked Cho and got rejected seems to upset her. Still, Harry doesn't walk into the common room after that, see Ginny, and think, "Geez, I need to find a date for the Yule Ball -- I'll ask Ginny, she'll go with me!" Nor does he think that throughout his conversation with her and Ron. The Lizard Queen: <<< she actually showed a suprising degree of integrity by not just saying "Ok, I'll go dump Neville, then I'll go with Harry!" She could very well have done that, and I'm sure it would have been incredibly tempting! >>> <<< I also interpreted that some of Ginny's distress is due to the fact that Ron and Harry have just been saying "who would go to the dance with Neville?". >>> Me: Agreed on both counts. Ron has a tendency toward sweeping generalizations and off the cuff remarks that only push his foot farther in his mouth. And Harry's less perceptive qualities don't help either. I'll give it to her that she does show what I hope is an indication of her future mettle by commenting to Hermione immediately after the Neville jab: "'Because -- oh shut up laughing, you two --because they've both been turned down by girls they asked to the ball!' said Ginny. That shut Harry and Ron up. 'Thanks a bunch, Ginny,' Ron said sourly." (399-400) Her refusal to tell the boys who Hermione is going to the Ball with also heartens me. BTW, I notice both of these instances of gumption are somehow associated with Hermione. I'm hoping this reflects Hermione's influence on Ginny and that that influence will increase as the series progresses. The Lizard Queen: <<< I don't think Ginny's behaviour around Harry is any worse than Harry's behaviour around Cho Chang. What does Harry really know about Cho? >>> Me: Also agreed, but that's also why I don't think Harry's feelings for Cho are any more than a superficial attraction and will prove to be far less enduring than he seems to think -- not that he's really spent any time really analyzing his crush. All right, I was a little hard on Ginny but I get so frustrated by her passivity. I want to shake her, tell her to get up and create her own circumstances instead of letting/waiting for things to happen to her. I want her to tell Ron and Harry off. I want her to refuse to be marginalized, disrespected, and ignored. I want her to show us all how she's more than Ron's little sister and Harry's fan -- because I suspect she is. Perhaps, Hermione has spoiled me on strong-willed, (mostly) self-assured, (mostly) unintimidated girls in the HP world. And perhaps it's not fair for me to want Ginny to completely or mostly adopt the same personality traits, but I just want to see her take control of her life and start kicking some butt. -Jessica, who is very much like Hermione now, but wishes she had been more so when she was younger, too :-) ===== "Oh, I'll settle down with some old story/About a boy who's just like me/Thought there was love in everything and everyone/You're so naive!/After a while they always get it/They always reach a sorry end/Still it was worth it as I turned the pages solemnly, and then/With a winning smile, the boy/With naivety succeeds/At the final moment, I cried/I always cry at endings" - "Get Me Away From Here I'm Dying," Belle and Sebastian From eleri at aracnet.com Sat Oct 5 17:23:17 2002 From: eleri at aracnet.com (CB) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 10:23:17 -0700 Subject: Ron and the Dress Robes from Hell In-Reply-To: <1033821959.1191.23890.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20021005101836.00c7f100@mail.aracnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45010 > > >I've had this same thought. He could have very discreetly, talked to >Hermione, or taken Professor McGonagall off to the side, and asked for >help. His brothers knew how to get to the kitchens, so they certainly >knew how to get to the house elves, and I'm sure the house elves would >have love to do it for him. 'Great! More work; we love work. We'd love >to help you Ron.' > >The only thing I could come up with to justify Ron's actions or >inactions is 'He's a kid.'. > >To some extend, kids live in their own private little world. So, as a >kid, he wouldn't think of going to an adult for help. Still, his >brothers, after much teasing, would have surely help. Hermione, if >asked, would have certainly tried to do something, or made a >suggestion. But being the stubbon kid he is, Ron just threw them in >his trunk and ignored them until it was too late. > >I'm still with you thought, just ask the elves, it would have solved >everything. > >bboy_mn Stubborness and pride, I'm thinking. He's always hugely ashamed about the state of his things, but has never asked for help. Not with his broken wand, not with his robes, not even with crushed sandwiches for lunch. I think he doesn't want to give ground by asking. For Ron, it's like admitting he knows his family is dirt poor and he gets all the hand me downs. Sure, it's common knowledge, and Malfoy uses it at every opporotunity, but for Ron to admit it is like giving in to Malfoy's teasing. Or something like that. I'm just percolating thoughts. Eleri From myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 5 18:05:05 2002 From: myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com (Moonstruck) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 11:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magic Detection/ Ron and the dress robes/ Socks and Celebrity (and sweaters) In-Reply-To: <003101c26c86$556cb400$44a1cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <20021005180505.96151.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45011 Richelle said: <<< While it's all a good theory, we still have only Dumbledore's word for what he saw in the mirror. Even Harry doubted he'd told the truth, it was extremely personal. >>> Me: I don't understand why JKR would throw in such a strange and symbolically loaded comment if it didn't mean something. Particularly when it's Dumbledore doing the talking. And -- if Dumbledore's desire for socks indicates his desire for love and respect based on his true personality and not his reputation (neither of which bare much resemblance to the other) and that that desire is a representation of his feelings of isolation, loneliness, and impressions of less than genuine expressions of devotion -- the confession is, indeed, extremely personal. I mean, let's face it, Harry's not always incredibly quick --especially in SS/PS -- to pick up the subtle nuances of people's comments. Richelle said: <<< While I'm sure it's true that a great deal of love and labor goes into these sweaters that Molly makes, and they are individualized, but still they're always the same. Ron always gets a maroon sweater with an R on it. >>> I think somebody commented that there's a likelihood that Ron has never informed Molly of his distaste for Maroon. I think it all together possible that she makes him these sweaters year after year thinking they're just what he likes. Ron does have a tendency to grumble about things that bother him, but not do anything constructive to actually fix them. I think the most important aspect of this is that Molly makes these sweaters out of her love for, devotion to and need to protect her children. They say it's the thought that counts and if Ron's never given her any reason to believe that thought invalid, that's really Ron's issue, not Molly's. <<< I don't think Ron really is tossing away affection by not appreciating the things his mother makes him, he's probably just tired of it. >>> And that's the crux of the problem! He's grown to take his family for granted -- not a rare mistake for a kid to make, but he has such feelings of ambivalence toward them that it strikes me as a dangerous path for Ron to tread. Indeed, I believe that's why JKR juxtaposes Fred and George's reactions to Ron and Percy's. Let's face it, Percy could do with a little humility and appreciation for the values his family strives to instill in their children. Based on his dismissive behavior toward his family in GoF, a question mark hangs over his head as to were his loyalties will lie and how that will effect himself, his family, and the course of the war against Voldemort. In many ways, he's a loose cannon -- and so is Ron. I think much of that has to do with their willingness to throw their family aside or belittle the effects of their love. That stands in stark contrast to Harry, who, having never had anyone who loved him enough to make a sweater just for him, is touched and appreciative of Molly's gesture of acceptance. No, he hasn't grown up getting these sweaters year after year, but he also hasn't grown up with a great deal of love and encouragement. Which do you think is worse? I can't fully explain the significance of the variety of his sweaters. Perhaps it indicates Molly's evolving perceptions of Harry as she grows to know him better. Harry hasn't had the luxury of growing up in the Weasley household where Molly could watch him grow and advance and understand the full nature of his identity. Plus, Fred and George -- perhaps the most mischievous, but, in my opinion, most well-adjusted of the Weasley children -- don't seem to object to getting the same sweater year after year. They still appreciate its significance. And they don't seem to have the identity or self-esteem issues Ron and Percy seem to have. But that's only my two cents. -Jessica :-) ===== "Oh, I'll settle down with some old story/About a boy who's just like me/Thought there was love in everything and everyone/You're so naive!/After a while they always get it/They always reach a sorry end/Still it was worth it as I turned the pages solemnly, and then/With a winning smile, the boy/With naivety succeeds/At the final moment, I cried/I always cry at endings" - "Get Me Away From Here I'm Dying," Belle and Sebastian __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Oct 5 18:41:44 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 18:41:44 -0000 Subject: Never Ever (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45012 This is in response to the recent thread started by bohcoo (44720) that the entire HP saga will ultimately prove to be such stuff as dreams are made of, and the little life of Hogwarts shall be rounded with a sleep. This, to speak dispassionately, would be a hideous, unforgivable, and nihilistic travesty that would demolish all of the ethical and moral teachings so pivotal to the thematic integrity of the series (not my definition of "tidy"). This filk is intended to dramatize the horror of such an outcome. I also don't think for one second that JKR is going to let us down this way. Never Ever (To the tune of Ever After, from Sondheim's Into the Woods) Hear a MIDI at: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/into_the_woods.html Far too depressing to dedicate to anyone THE SCENE: 4 PRIVET DRIVE. The 18-year-old HARRY POTTER, awakened by the DURSLEYS in his cupboard below the stairs, realizes with a thrill of horror that all the events of the last seven years were a dream (a dream of which, for reasons inexplicable, the DURSLEYS know every single detail) VERNON Journey over. Magic ended. Hogwarts School is now no more Sayonara, it's suspended! Never ever PETUNIA All the curses were pretended, There's no scar from Voldemort Your heroical endeavors Never ever DURSLEYS Never then and never now And never ever ever! HARRY There were dangers- DURSLEYS No, not really HARRY And great crisis- DURSLEYS You just dreamed it- HARRY And my broom would often swerve. DURSLEYS It did not. HARRY There were constant- DURSLEYS You're just crazy- HARRY Plot devices- DURSLEYS Jo undid it. HARRY But we'd all come through with verve DURSLEYS But Book Seven's end suffices: It was your misfired nerves! Not ol' Ron and not the two twins, Sirius nor Hagrid No Hermy nor Remus Lupin Just poor Harry's stray id DUDLEY I am greedy. VERNON I am vain. PETUNIA I am haughty. VERNON I am smug. DURSLEYS We are happy. DUDLEY It is fun. PETUNIA `Cause we're Muggles. BOTH Then we went into his room To wake him up, He's also a Muggle. HARRY It was perfect. I had everything I wanted I had powers, And I lived inside the Tower, I could flower. Then I woke up in my bed And what a switch, And now I'm ordinary. Lost my power and my Tower DUDLEY You're unworthy. HARRY (fighting back tears) I'm unhappy now, unhappy hence, As well as ever after. Had I stayed soundly a-snooze I might have escaped this abuse, I'd be happy DURSLEYS We are happier than Harry That's the moral of this book We shall party, we'll make merry As we mock that Potter schnook For it's Privet Drive forever And for Gryffindor, the hook! HARRY Though I'm tearful, Though it's deep, though it's dark, And though I've now lost my path, I can still encounter elves, I musn't stop, I must believe, I musn't worry, I've got to act! For I know my wish, If I want my wish, I can have my wish,- So, to get my wish . DURSLEYS But it will all fade, Is that not plain? Where witches, ghosts And charms once reigned. It will all fade And you've not gained A single thing worth learning It will all fade Like a death knell In vain, no doubt, But what the hell It will all fade, your magic spells It will all fade, the Hat of Sorting It will all fade, the dragons wild No swish and flick No Diagon Alley No true werewolves No Prongs your father No Merpeople kingdom No Snape, no Snitch, No wands, no skrewts No orbs, no owls, No Stone of Philosopher! It will all fade! It will all fade! It will all fade! Now, out of our way, (The DURSELYS throw HARRY out the front door) We're happy ever after! (The door of 4 Privet Drive slams shut forever. Minutes later, HARRY is run over while trying to flag down a semi-truck he mistakes for the Knight Bus. He is buried a few days later in an unmarked pauper's grave. The service is attended by only by Arabella Figg ? in the early stages of dementia praecox - and her 27 cats) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Sat Oct 5 19:23:45 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 20:23:45 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magical protection In-Reply-To: <3D9D38B9.8A1965C7@avteq.com.au> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021005193934.009a9a90@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45013 (As usual, I've been reading HPGFU backwards; having responded to several posts Sue's original post generated, I've finally read it and have a few things to say - *unrelated* to the Fidelius Charm!) At 16:44 04/10/02 +1000, Sue Rodgers wrote: >I've always wondered about the special magic that keeps Harry safe when >he is with the Dursleys. Is it perhaps that they are so unmagical that >this, oddly enough, gives them special powers, or makes them impervious >to seriously damaging magic? After all, Harry is delivered to the >Dursleys because he will be safe there according to Dumbledore. If >anyone has read the "Scent of Magic" books by Cliff McNish, the most >magical child of all the children has no magical powers whatsoever and >accordingly is impervious to magic. It would seem from canon that the important thing for Harry's protection about the Dursleys is not that they are utter Muggleness, but that Petunia (and by extension, Dudley) are blood relatives. When dropping Harry off on their doorstep, of course he comments that growing up away from the magical world will be good for Harry, but later references to Harry's protection make it clear that the *essence* of the protection is the family connection. Or, to put it another way, the benefit of growing up where nobody knows that Harry is important is that Harry will survive childhood as a "normal" person. The benefit of growing up in the care of relatives is that he'll survive his childhood at all. :-) Most attentive HP readers have wondered about the precise nature of this protection, and significant speculation at this stage is difficult because we know very little beyond the importance of "family". In the knowledge that at this stage we can propose nothing but generalities, my own feelings are that apart from the Fidelius Charm not being involved in any way, shape or form (), it's got something to do with blood. Specifically, *unspilt* blood. Something I found interesting about Harry's early childhood with the Dursleys and the various things we know about their treatment of him is that they have never actually physically harmed him. In particular, although Dudley persistently hit Harry on the nose and broke his glasses, he has never given him a nosebleed. Hitting someone in the face forcefully enough to break their specs, but not to give them a nosebleed, is very difficult. I'm painfully aware of that from personal experience. :-) I have absolutely no idea whether the above is significant or the implications deliberate on JKR's part, but I've noticed it nevertheless. :-) >A second not really related thought. I always loved the concept of the >secret keeper. I wonder if Dumbledore keeps Snape safe from Voldemort >in return for Snape keeping an eye out for Harry. ie If anything >happens to Harry, Snape will lose Dumbledore's protection. I'm not sure in what way the Secret-Keeper Charm could be connected to that scenario. :-) Anyway, I can't see any canon to support the notion that Snape has been given any special role in protecting Harry. He might be nastier as a person than most of the Hogwarts faculty and singles Harry and his friends out for ridicule, but he doesn't appear to be around to help Harry any more than other people. He saved Harry during the first book's Quidditch match because he was in a position to do so. He followed everyone down to the Shrieking Shack in Book Three not because he was looking out for Harry's interests, but because he was looking for Remus. Those are the only times I can think of when he's been the one to come to Harry's rescue before anyone else. Any more? -- GulPlum AKA Richard, UK From msbonsai at mninter.net Sat Oct 5 15:29:07 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 15:29:07 -0000 Subject: Lilly's touch was:Magical protection -- the Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45014 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: > bboy_mn with rambling thoughts: > > Barb P quotes canon: > > Voldemort also used this phrase to refer to the protection Harry has > on Privet Drive. In the same chapter you site, he says,- > > "... For he has been better protected than I think even he knows, > protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him > to arrange the boy's future. Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to > ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care. > Not even I can touch him there..." > > bboy_mn replies: > Based on Voldemort's statement, it would seem that Harry's location is > not a secret. Voldemort knows Harry is at the Dursley's, he just can't > do anything about it. Notice that Voldemort said he can't TOUCH Harry > their. He didn't say he couldn't see, find, or detect him there. > Admittedly, one could say that the turn of a phrase doesn't create > absolute truth. But the implication seems to be that he can't harm > Harry, not that he can't find him. > Personally, and not supported by canon, I think it is some kind of > shield charm; some type of barrier that prevents Voldemort from > getting to Harry even if he knows where he is and can see him. I do > see some weaknesses in this theory and I can also see how it could be > twisted to imply a Fidelius Charm, but I'm still having a hard time > accepting something as limited as the Fidelius Charm. Me: Ok, I've just had a thought. It says while Harry's in his "relations" care. That does not specifically say the "Dursley's" care. If it were their care, are we talking "just" when he's in their house? Then he's not protected at the elementary schools he went to. What if, and I know it's a stretch . . . but what if somehow there's another relation there . . . say his parents are somehow still involved in the afterlife? Perhaps this is still referring to the protection of his mother dying to protect him? I mean, if we think about it, and hmm I hope I have all this right now, but Dumbledore's gleam in his eyes, maybe that referred to his knowledge or fierce determination that Harry remain safe? Perhaps he realizes that Voldie is somehow getting close to figureing out Harry's secret, or that Voldie maybe is simply thinking that's the whole thing but it really isn't all of it? Why is Dumbledore sending Harry back to the Dursely's for one last summer? Perhaps to show Voldie that it's not what was protecting Harry? So Voldie is more afraid of Harry by virtue of seeing it is not all his mother's protection? Ok, so maybe I'm stretching this way too far out there, but does anyone else have thoughts on this? I'm intriuged at the "relation's care" rather than stating just the Dursley's names. It makes it that so much more could be read into this :o) Mrs Bonsai (Julie) From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sat Oct 5 19:43:02 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 12:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Application of lessons In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021005161609.00a45220@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <20021005194302.78114.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45015 While the students may not have used Transfiguration to conquer any of the large threats experienced during the first four books, Transfiguration WAS responsible for one of the most daunting challenges on the way to the Philosopher's Stone (McGonagall's enchanted chess board), the Animagus Transfiguration was important to the plot of the third book, and specifically, McGonagall transfiguring herself into a cat and back to human was introduced near the beginning of the first book, telling us very quickly that this is something possible for witches and wizards to do (although we don't learn of its rarity until much later). This is also an important plot point in GoF (Rita Skeeter) and it is Hermione's knowledge of Transfiguration, I believe, that leads her to conclude that Rita is an insect Animagus. Rita was not the extreme threat in GoF that Voldemort and Crouch/Moody represented, but she was a minor adversary who was conquered by Hermione's Transfiguration knowledge. The class which has proven to be truly useless is Astronomy. First, we don't ever witness Astronomy classes; second, the boys could use their knowledge of this in making their star charts for Trelawney, but they just make up everything for her and don't even try to do it right; third, Sinistra is such a shadowy figure that some people aren't even convinced of her gender; fourth, we don't know any other details about her, such as first name or age (from the books--if JKR has revealed these things in an interview, I'm not aware of it), let alone a physical description of the professor. Oh, and I've yet to see Hermione apply Arithmancy to anything practical, despite her near hero-worship of Professor Vector. And really, the only practical use Hagrid's classes have provided are the bond between Harry and Buckbeak. Otherwise COMC classes have been fairly useless as well. --Barb GulPlum wrote:Now, my point is this: of everything on the Hogwarts curriculum, the one subject they've not applied *at all* in their adventures is Transfiguration. It's presented as an important subject and we witness at least once lesson in each of the books. Yet Hermione, who appears quite good at it, hasn't found a use for it a single time yet. In a roundabout way, this ties in with a thread a few days ago in which I nominated McGonagall for "unnecessary character" status (I admit that the connection only just occurred to me having written all of the above). I'm therefore wondering: is Transfiguration as useless to the plot as its teacher, or is JKR deliberately holding back and saving up Transfiguration (and McGonagall) for a BANGY moment at the climax of the series? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ronib at mindspring.com Sat Oct 5 19:05:39 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 19:05:39 -0000 Subject: Magical protection -- the Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45016 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" wrote: > > Veronica: I'll give you that one, but what about Dobby? We could > > say that the rules of the Fidelius Charm don't apply to non-human > > magical creatures, but that seems almost too easy. > > MrsBonsai: Sorry for jumping in here, but don't you think that > Harry would have told Ron where he lived when he told them all > about the Dursleys? It seems to me a lot of students at Hogwarts > knew he did not like the Dursleys. That was made apparent in COS, > when the students presumed he could be the heir of Slytherin simply > because he "hated his muggle relations". > > Also, seeing as they knew the Dursley's names, even though they may > not know about a phone book or how to use it, Hermione did, and > could have simply told them. > Veronica: I conceeded the point about Ron. Thus my statement "I'll give you that one" and the reference to the suggestion that Harry told Ron where he lived. The point of my post, which I think is clearly stated, is that Harry did not tell Dobby where he was. Did Dobby find out from the Secret Keeper? And as someone else pointed out, what about Sirius? Since everyone believed that he was a traitor who sold out the Potters, and since everyone feared that he would be out to get Harry after his escape, it is highly unlikely the Secret Keeper would have told HIM where to find Harry. Don't you think? Veronica From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Oct 5 21:30:01 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 21:30:01 -0000 Subject: Ron and the Dress Robes from Hell In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20021005101836.00c7f100@mail.aracnet.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45017 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., CB wrote: > bboy_mn said: ...edited... > Still, his brothers, after much teasing, would have surely help. > Hermione, if asked, would have certainly tried to do something, > or made a suggestion. But being the stubbon kid he is, Ron just > threw them in his trunk and ignored them until it was too late. > > ...edited... > > > >bboy_mn > > Eleri replied: > Stubborness and pride, I'm thinking. He's always hugely ashamed > about the state of his things, but has never asked for help. Not > with his broken wand, not with his robes, not even with crushed > sandwiches for lunch. I think he doesn't want to give ground by > asking. > ...edited... > > Eleri Stubborness and Pride; I think you hit the nail right on the head. I have often wondered why Ron didn't ask anyone if it was possible to fix his wand. Of course, if the wand is fixed, it messes up the whole story, but I would think that he would have at least considered the possibility. Certainly, if you can transform a rock into a dog, then you can mend a wand with a charm. Even common glue would have been better than Spellotape (cellotape, Scotch tape). And, the teachers can certainly see that the wand is broken, but I suspect they are teaching a 'life lesson'. If you want help, you have to ask for it. Seems like something a teacher might do. Just a few more thoughts. bboy_mn From htfulcher at comcast.net Sat Oct 5 19:13:30 2002 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 19:13:30 -0000 Subject: Magic Detection/ Ron and the dress robes/ Socks and Celebrity (and sweaters) In-Reply-To: <20021005180505.96151.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45018 Be prepared for perhaps the silliest thread-provoking comment of the new millennium > Richelle said: > > <<< While it's all a good theory, we still have only > Dumbledore's word for what he saw in the mirror. Even > Harry doubted he'd told the truth, it was extremely > personal. >>> > > Me: > I don't understand why JKR would throw in such a > strange and symbolically loaded comment if it didn't > mean something. Particularly when it's Dumbledore > doing the talking. And -- if Dumbledore's desire for > socks .....[snip, snip, snip] Why had I never noticed it before. The socks! The SOCKS! Could there be a connection between Dumbledore wanting socks and the sock that freed Dobby? Note also Dobby's preoccupation with socks. Who does Dumbledore wish to give him socks to free him! MarEphraim (who obviously spent way too much time yesterday reading the entire catalogue of posts to this site) From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Oct 5 23:04:12 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 23:04:12 -0000 Subject: Ron and the Dress Robes from Hell In-Reply-To: <69.2e4eeb11.2ad036e8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45019 Calypso wrote: > > Hum. . . I had always assumed that things witches and wizards bought in the wizarding world couldn't be altered. Wouldn't be very economic for retailers to sell stuff that customers can just change to their liking all the time-- > they wouldn't make any money that way! I think that things like robes probably have some type of magic woven in them to keep people from transfiguring them or trying to alter them too much like Ron tried with cursing off the lace and ending up with uneven sleeves<< Wow! Calypso, I think you've really got something there. That also explains Lupin's shabby robes and battered briefcase, and why Madame Malkin uses pins when she's fitting Harry's first set of robes instead of shortening them by magic. I wonder if Molly, knowing that the dress robes would only be needed if the Tri-Wizard Tournament came off, and knowing all the problems the Ministry was having in getting it arranged, didn't want to spend the money for dress robes until she was sure they'd be needed. Since every single Hogwarts student in fourth year and above was required to have them, the selection was probably pretty picked-over by the time Molly went looking for used robes. But what did Ginny do? Pippin From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Oct 6 02:49:14 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:49:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sweaters/ Application of lessons References: <20021005180505.96151.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00f401c26ce2$f7e3b7e0$129ccdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45020 Jessica write: > I think somebody commented that there's a likelihood > that Ron has never informed Molly of his distaste for > Maroon. I think it all together possible that she > makes him these sweaters year after year thinking > they're just what he likes. Ron does have a tendency > to grumble about things that bother him, but not do > anything constructive to actually fix them. Yes, Ron does grumble a lot without actually getting anything accomplished with it, but still, my point was not in the particular color of the sweater (maroon). Why are they always exactly alike? Why not make one with a Gryffindor lion one year, like Harry's had? Or something she knows Ron likes? Something with the Chudley Cannons emblem of something. I concede this would take a bit more time and effort, and she already had a large number of sweaters to make, but if she can add to Harry's, why not everyone else's? Sure, Fred and George don't seem to whine about it as much, but Fred does comment "Harry's is better than ours, though," said Fred, holding up Harry's sweater. "She obviously makes more of an effort if you're not family." George's only comment was "Why aren't you wearing yours, Ron?" George demanded. "Come on, get it on, they're lovely and warm." He could've been being sarcastic, but if not, it is another comment to add to the "George is the good twin" file. :) Now here's another question. As Ron pulls his sweater on George says "You haven't got a letter on yours, I suppose she thinks you don't forget your name. But we're not stupid--we know we're called Gred and Forge." Who's sweater was he talking about not having a letter? I always thought it was Harry's that didn't have a letter, but the context implies Ron doesn't have a letter. Percy's does, so I guess he meant Harry's? GulPlum writes: > In a roundabout way, this ties in with a thread a few days ago in which I > nominated McGonagall for "unnecessary character" status (I admit that the > connection only just occurred to me having written all of the above). I'm > therefore wondering: is Transfiguration as useless to the plot as its > teacher, or is JKR deliberately holding back and saving up Transfiguration > (and McGonagall) for a BANGY moment at the climax of the series? Yes, that's it. The second one. JKR is saving McGonagall and transfiguration for a climactic scene. Harry will transfigure Voldemort into a slug and step on him. :) Okay, maybe not, but I do think it's been deliberately held back for something. Just can't say what. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From kellybroughton at yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 02:49:03 2002 From: kellybroughton at yahoo.com (kelly broughton) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 19:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: % In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021006024903.60875.qmail@web21106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45021 --- jastrangfeld wrote: > > Kel, > > I'm not sure where you see that I said it was stricktly after > mudbloods. I said it was out for blood in general, looking for > whatever it could get. (snip) > MrsBonsai (Julie) My apologies. :) I didn't mean to give the impression that "strictly after Mudbloods" WAS what you said; it's just that what you did say raised a similar, although quite different question in my mind. I should have been more specific about that! I also noticed that no one has come forth with any suggestions as to how the basilisk was supposed to tell the difference between the students' bloodlines. Maybe you're right, and it really didn't make any difference who got stoned/killed. Riddle's attitude just made me wonder; HE was quite specific about who he wanted the victims to be. -kel __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 6 04:50:14 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 04:50:14 -0000 Subject: Wolfsbane Potion-Veritaserum-Warmth Spells-Harry'sStrongPoints-ADream-Luc/Na Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45022 Eric Oppen wrote: << we do have canon that potions _have_ been invented very recently, what with the Wolfsbane Potion that is supposed to make poor Lupin safe to have around. (Me, I'd have gone for the good old Muggle methods---a cage, or a cell that are werewolf-proof---but that's just me). >> I suppose those -- strong cages, stout chains, dungeons -- were the methods used before the Wolfsbane Potion was invented and when no Shrieking Shack (itself a form of dungeon) was available. I suppose those methods were very hard on the werewolf, surrounded by human smell that made him go crazy with blood-lust and fight to [escape the bondage to] get at the humans, not stopped by damaging himself physically in the struggle, not slowed by feeling terrible pain from damaging himself... It would also be dangerous for the humans in the vicinity, in case the werewolf *did* manage to escape his bonds. The humans would have to kill the werewolf in mere self-defense, despite knowing that the other 29 days of the month he was their beloved friend/relative. Canon on the subject: "My transformations in those days were -- were terrible. It is very painful to turn into a werewolf. I was separated from humans to bite, so I bit and scratched myself instead. The villagers heard the noise and the screaming". We can argue about what that means. Was he referring to the physical pain of one's body stretching, shrinking, and sprouting a tail, or to the pain of being driven by blood-lust? I really believe that "I was separated from humans to bite, so I bit and scratched myself instead" means "I was separated from humans to bite, [even tho' I could smell them enough that I was driven crazy with blood lust that made me] bit[e] and scratched myself [in the effort to get the chains off that kept me from the humans]." Eric Oppen wrote: << if I were pumped full of Veritaserum or fast-penta, I would not suddenly know things I didn't know before." Yes, but would you temporarily "know" information that that was normally covered up by a Memory Charm or a Confundus Charm? I believe that that information must normally be in/around you, just concealed, or else how could it be possible to break a Memory Charm? Would a war between the Memory Charm and the Veritaserum cause the person to have convulsions and then explode into hamburger? Me: << do we know of any warmth spells in canon? >> Michelle Bailey: << Hermionie created a portable blue flame/fire to carry about in a jar to keep the trio warm >> Yes, she did, but I don't think a portable flame, even if water- proof, would be much help to keep a person who was stranded in cold sea-water from dying of the cold ... whenever there is a big airplane crash over open ocean, the news gives some statistics about how long a person could possible survive in water of different temperatures, except I don't remember them. GulPlum wrote: << in fact the only thing at which he has proven to be unnaturally adept is at summoning a Patronus, >> And flying a broom and catching a Snitch. And Parselmouth, but that is a minus. Btw, I sometimes wonder if Harry got his flying and Seeking ability from Voldemort the same as his Parselmouth: wouldn't it make him crazy to find out that his proudest accomplishment came from his worst enemy? sugar Katey wrote: << my english teacher last year told us that ending a story with the character waking up and everything having been a dream is the ultimate cop-out >> Yes, but it worked for Alice in Wonderland, and Harry Potter may be as classic as Alice. Emerald Snake wrote: << But anyways, what do you people think of the Lucius/Narcissa pairing? >> My opinions: Lucius and Narcissa are about the same age. Both are from wealthy and socially prominent families (in my universe, they're first cousins - Draco is inbred), so each is a suitable match for the other. However, they chose to marry each other as their own idea, not arranged by their families. And they made that choice because they like each other and have the same goals, not just because of being 'suitable'. Neither of them likes children (which is not a sign of Evil, as I don't like children either); altho' they also both knew the duty of passing on the family name, they planned to postpone childbearing as long as possible. Then there came a reason that all the Death Eaters had to rush out and have children, and that included the Malfoys. They found infant Draco very boring and pretty much left him to be raised by his doting Nanny. However, when he got a little older, they tried to teach him proper behavior. In my universe, their method of teaching is to punish him with very cutting vicious words or with physical blows when he doesn't do what they consider right; canon Draco the wimp is then given lavish presents to make up for having hit him, while fanon Draco has to wheedle and manipulate each of those presents out of his parents, and has to deal with particularly savage punishments when his father loses his hot temper -- that is, unfortunately, how young people learn to be so very perceptive of other people's minds and so concealling of their own. Btw Lucius has a very cold hot temper, where his anger doesn't make him shout, or act without thinking how the action will affect his plans. In my universe, he learned that cold self-control and careful plotting from his godfather, Tom Marvolo Riddle. I mentioned Lucius and Narcissa each having a good sense of what they owe to the family reputation? Part of what they owe to the family reputation is that they must have active, and often separate, social lives. Lucius must be seen in the most fashionable nightclubs of Diagon Alley with trophy girlfriends, while Narcissa must be rumored to be having affairs (sequential not simultaneous) with top Quidditch players or pop musicians. It is important for keeping up the Malfoy reputation that people gossip about how Lucius Malfoy can get all the gorgeous witches he wants. And it would be shameful if people gossiped that Narcissa Malfoy can't get laid... I mean, that she can't entice any desirable wizard to keep her company while her husband is away. I imagine that when their social calendars allow them to dine at home alone together, they happily welcome the opportunity to have dinner served in Narcissa'a boudoir and turn it into a private orgy. (In my universe, Divination predicted that a boy conceived around Halloween 1979 and born around Lammas 1980 would have great magic powers. Previously, I had Voldemort discovering this prediction and ordering his followers to go out and spawn, because he was hoping that this powerful mage would be born into his service. That is in my post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/42888 ) (But I thought about it some more and the Death Eater Baby Boom consists of Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, possibly MacNair, possibly the other Slytherins of Harry's year (Zabini, Parkinson, Bulstrode, hypothetical). That is awfully few and awfully Mafoy-centric to be the spawn of ALL the Death Eaters: maybe it was Lucius who discovered the prediction and created the plan to get the special boy's powers for HIS own use, not his Master's.) From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 6 05:00:38 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 05:00:38 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's watch/Muggle Inferiority/Fawcett/GreyWolf/TMRs raising/Midwitch Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45023 GulPlum wrote: << that there are no characters [besides Fleur] who might appeal to [adult, heterosexual men's sexual fantasies >> Madam Rosmerta. Melody wrote: << We all know the Wealseys have a clock that tells the general state of each member of the family. The clock has eight hands for each member and can some how report on how and what each member is doing. Now, from PS/SS we know that Dumbledore has a pocket watch with the same purpose. He looks at it and sees that Hagrid is late. >> Canon of Dumbledore's watch (from chapter one, book one): "It was a very odd watch. It had twelve hands but no numbers; instead, little planets were moving around the edge." I think it was an astrological or astronomical depiction of the skies at the present moment, from which any devout amateur astronomer could tell the time. If an astrological watch, with the Earth at the center and the planets orbitting it, the twelve hands could represent the 12 Houses and move in accordance with the watch's latitude as well as the Earth's rotation. If an astronomical watch, with the Sun at the center and the Earth one of the orbitting planets (presumably with the Moon making epicycles arond it), I don't know what the twelve hands represent. At first, I thought that the hands were physically carrying the little planets on their journey around the edge, but someone showed me how that was a wrong assumption, but I don't remember why it was wrong. Naama, long-time listie, wrote: << It may offend our sensibilities, but Muggles really are inferior to wizards - therefore the reasonable attitude towards them is precisely the kindly condescension practiced by the Weasleys. >> The kindly condescension shown by the older Weasleys IS a little off. They say, isn't it marvellous that Muggles and their cute little toys are able to make do without magic? One common Muggle cute little toy, the telephone, can send a message a great deal faster than an owl! Other listies have mentioned Muggle bombs that blow up a great deal more than one street and twelve people. Phyllis Heart's Desire wrote: << Why would the two versions have Fawcett and Stebbins in different houses? >> The Age Line chapter of GoF has Dumbledore telling the Twins that Miss Fawcett of Ravenclaw and Mr Summers of Hufflepuff had already tied and failed to cross the Age Line. If Snape blasted Miss Fawcett of Ravenclaw, it is possibly the same person, but if Snape blasted Miss Fawcett of Hufflepuff, it could be her sister. In my fic, I had Miss Fawcett of Ravenclaw being in Cho's year and dorm and being Cho's best friend, whose ambition is to get on the House Quidditch team, and Miss Fawcett of Hufflepuff being her one year older sister. If I had known when I wrote the fic that the check-out page of QTTA included "S. Fawcett", I would have named her Sally short for Salacia instead of Mary! Melody wrote: << wondering why the Grey Wolf did not rise to support his "pet" theory along with Pip!Squeak. Quite unusual. >> Probably because he was in the midst of moving house to England for his university year abroad. Sherry wrote: << So my question is, do we know for a fact that Tom Riddle spent his childhood in the Muggle world? Do all witches/wizards who choose to marry Muggles necessarily resign themselves to living out their lives (and raising their children) in the Muggle world, or do some bring their Muggle spouses into the WW? >> As for the latter, Seamus Finnegan's mother married a Muggle and she was at the Quidditch World Cup (hinting that she wasn't living her whole life in the Muggle world, as does Seamus's reminiscence in Book 1 that he had flown on broomsticks before coming to Hgwarts) and Seamus's father was not at the Quidditch World Cup. Hinting that, if he isn't dead or divorced, he still hasn't been brought into the Wizarding World. Canon: "You live in a Muggle orphanage during the holidays, I believe?" said Dippet curiously. -----"Yes, sir," said Riddle, reddening slightly. "You are Muggle-born?" -----"Half-blood, sir," said Riddle. "Muggle father, witch mother." "And are both your parents -?" -----"My mother died just after I was born, sir. They told me at the orphanage she lived just long enough to name me - Tom after my father, Marvolo after my grandfather." And: "I, keep the name of a foul, common Muggle, who abandoned me even before I was born, just because he found out his wife was a witch?" The canon seems pretty clear that Tom Riddle spent his childhood in the Muggle world and NOT with his Muggle father. In fact, it seems pretty clear that Tom Riddle's father didn't move into the wizarding world at all. JOdel wrote: << In St. Mungo's there must be spells deployed by the medi-staff to reduce or eliminate any potential damage to both mother and infant.>> Do Potterverse British witches deliver their babies in St. Mungo's? The wizarding world is an old-fashioned place, and wasn't it still the normal thing for Muggle women to give birth at home with midwives a mere hundred years ago? Rebecca Steph wrote: << Like when a friend gets an awful haircut and knows it, you tell them it doesn't look so bad. >> IIRC, last year a listie from a non-English-speaking European country expressed amazement that USAmericans (and Brits?) do/believe that. Because in her culture, the sign of true friendship is that your friend tells you the truth, even that their haircut or whatever looks horrible. From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Sat Oct 5 23:33:54 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 23:33:54 -0000 Subject: Ron and Maroon/Ginny and Crushes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45024 Ok...I've been quiet for the last little while observing all these discussions, and I've decided to weigh in. Both of these observations come from the fact that while *technically* I am an adult, I'm really not that far removed from the life and thought processes of a teenager. Therefore I'm basing my arguements on my thoughts towards my parents and boys while I was a teenager. First of all, as far as clothing and maroon go, I was always just under the impression that Mrs. Weasley *liked* maroon, and that possibly this color had some symbolism(although don't ask me what). Maybe maroon was the coor of Ron's first robes as a baby, and she's just always liked it on him. Maybe she just thinks red heads look good in maroon(which at least one one of my friends, is true.) Now as far as Ron not liking maroon, well, I disagreed with my mom on points of fashion growing up as well. I was actually quite vocal about it. In the end, however, when I was thirteen, and my mom was paying for my clothes, the fact that she thought 'classic fit' jeans were more flattering then the 'flares' that I wanted won out. So much to my embaressment, I was the teenager walking around in pant that hugged my ankles when most of my friend's shoes could barely be seen their pants were so wide at the bottom. Do I blame my mom for this? Well, maybe partially, but as a teenager I chalked it up to 'Mom doesn't know fashion,' not 'Mom doesn't love me enough to get me what I want.' As for the dress robes, well, think about a Muggle second hand store. While more casual clothes may look pretty basic, even when their second hand, swing your mind over to the 'formal' department. What your left with are fuscia bridesmaid dresses with big huge bows and prom dresses from the 1970's. For guys it's not much better with the classic baby blue, ruffled tux. I'd always pictured Ron's maroon lace dress robe to be the equivilent to one of these. There honestly wasn't much selection, especially when you take into consideration that he's a 14 year old boy, and therefore finding the right size could be tricky. Now onto Ginny, and her crush on a boy she barely spoke to. Well, first of all, I don't see this crush as being purely a 'star struck' issue. It may have been in the first book and the beginning of the second book, but now Ginny is living in the same 'house' as Harry, and has certainly observed alot about him. For myself growing up, I had lots of crushes on boys that caused me to become rather tounge tied and not myself when they were around. That didn't mean that I knew nothing about them. Teenage girls, at least myself, are wonderful at using observation. Without going all scary-stalker like, it is still possible to find out what their class schedule is, sit a few seats away from them during lunch and observe the way they interact with people, notice from across the room what their study habits are, etc., etc. Now, I also had a couple of these 'from a distance' crushes turn into friendships. Once you've gotten used to the fact that they would actually *talk* to you, it is possible to interact with them. In fact, from all your observations, you know exactly how you should interact with them. Your observations should have also told you after an extended period of time that even the object of your affection has faults. This is the state I see Ginny reaching in GoF. Harry is no longer just 'the boy who lived,'(have I ever mentioned how much I hate the emphasis put on that phrase, but that's a completely different discussion.) but rather the best friend of one of her annoying older brothers, and a normal guy. I see Ginny at a point where she can start acting like herself around Harry, and truly be his friend, no matter what emotions might still swirl around inside of her head. ~Risti From psnow at nipha.com Sat Oct 5 23:54:59 2002 From: psnow at nipha.com (Paul Snow) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 18:54:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Magic Detection In-Reply-To: <1033821959.1191.23890.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45025 jodel at aol.com writes: > >Well if there IS a pattern I wish someone would explain it to ME. Because it >completely escapes me. I am growing into the interpretation that the whole >"magical monitoring" concept is a rather shabby device that Rowling is >jerking around and rewriting to suit whatever she wants it to be at any given >moment. And that's pretty much my point. Because it doesn't seem to be at all >consistent as far as the information that we'vwe been given to date goes. I see a pattern in all of this, because I see the "reasonable restriction of underage magic" as equivalent to restrictions on underage drinking (at least in the US). Underage drinkers are only in trouble with the authorities when they are caught by the authorities, or turned into the authorities. To me, the "monitoring" of underage witches and wizards would be a useful myth to encourage compliance, but a myth nonetheless. > >If we look at the evidence so far; > >Book 1. For ten years Harry has been producing intermittent but highly >noticable spontaneous magical "breakthroughs" and the Ministry of magic does >*nothing* about any of them. I see this as "passive magic", not "active magic". Harry does not know that it even is magic, and is explained away by him and others, i.e. Petunia saying about the sweater, "It must have shrunk in the wash." None of it, with the exception of the snake at the zoo incident, warrants covering up by the Magical Reversal squad, so no MoM intervention. > >Book 2. One floating pudding and Harry gets a nasty-gram threatening >expulsion within five minutes of the incident. Furthermore, that floating >pudding was produced wandlessly (House Elves are forbidden to have wands, >remember?), how did the MOM come to the conclusion that this wasn't just >another breakthrough? This was a planned frame up. How Dobby pulled it off we are not told explicitly, but he intended for Harry to get "caught" to prevent him from being able to return to Hogwarts. We aren't told what Dobby's exact plan was with this, but I have two ideas on what his plan was: Plan 1: Although the MoM letter was only a warning (and you probably don't need proof for a warning letter), Dobby seems to know enough about Harry's situation to guess the Dursley's reaction. Dobby intended that the Dursley's see the MoM letter and counted on the Dursley's to try to prevent Harry from returning to Hogwarts. Plan 2: Dobby gave the MoM "proof" of the violation and thought that Harry would be expelled, or at least suspended for the year, from Hogwarts. >From Dobby's other plans to keep Harry from returning to Hogwarts (or to get him to leave Hogwarts), I'm guessing Plan 2 is the more accurate one. The MoM letter implies that they detected the magic through some kind of magical monitoring. This is an old parent trick; not telling your children how you found out about them doing something wrong so that they believe you have ways of finding information beyond your actual means. > >Book 3. Harry produces another and fairly spectacular breakthrough >(wandlessly again, I might add), The Magical Reversal squad, complete with >obliviators show up within the hour. Harry is reassured that no one seems to >hold this against him and his Aunt Marge doesn't remember a thing. > Harry is actively being monitored in the beginning of book 3 because of Sirius' escape from Azkarban. The monitoring is not close enough to detect that he catches the Knight Bus, but it is close enough to detect the loud disturbance at the Dursley's because of Aunt Marge's condition. Unlike Harry's previous "passive magic" incidents, this one warrants intervention from the MoM -- it is magic that needs to be reversed. I noticed, however, that only Aunt Marge (unaware of the WW) doesn't remeber a thing about the incident. As a "passive magic" incident, it doesn't warrant a warning or expulsion letter. The way the the mood of the MoM was at the time, however, I doubt that Harry would have gotten an expulsion letter even if it was "active magic". >Is it just me, or are these incidents totally inconsistent with one another? >What the hell is Rowling playing at? Huh? > I see the enforcement of the "reasonable restriction on underage magic" being consistent with the enforcement of laws restricting underage drinking. I do not sense any overall monitoring of underage witches and wizards, although Harry was definitely being monitored by the MoM when Sirius was on the loose, had been spotted in the region, and Harry was assumed to be his target. Paul (first post, I'd love to dig out some exact quotes, but since I can only "read" the books in their audio format, skimming through them is impossible, and it takes more time than I have tonight to listen to all the chapters referred above to find exact quotes). From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 08:12:47 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 01:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Ginny Weasley Quotient (some SHIP) Message-ID: <20021006081247.81230.qmail@web40310.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45026 Ah, yes....Jessica. We meet again! I?m sure that Pippin has already sent a reply to this post, but I?m feeling a bit feisty about this topic, so I can?t *not* reply... You said: I'm not sure Ginny's lack of giggles and blushing necessarily indicates increased maturity or growing sophistication in her dealings with Harry. On the contrary, I would think Ginny's reaction to Harry's last-minute need for a Yule Ball date to be a just as troublesome and over-reactive. Granted, she has a terrible crush on Harry and she wishes Harry would notice her as something more than "Ron's Little Sister." I think we've all been there in one way or another and it's no fun. Little things make you twinge and feel discouraged. Nonetheless, it seems to me than anyone with a developed sense of reality and maturity and a genuine concern for Harry *as a unique individual, not a hero* would have had the sensibilities to take a more thoughtful and less self-absorbed view of Harry's dilemma. Me: And this is your line of reasoning because 13/14 year-olds are very thoughtful and not very self-absorbed on the whole, correct? Well, I?ll admit, she does seem sorry for herself (see canon below), I?ll give you that. But I don?t see how her reaction is still her hero-worship stage. I would picture hero-worshiping Ginny like she was in COS...barely talking and not standing up for herself. And Harry has been the epitome of "reality and maturity" . After Harry asked Cho to the ball and found out she was already going with Cedric, here are his thoughts: "He had been starting to quite like Cedric? prepared to overlook the fact that he had once beaten him at Quidditch, and was handsome, and popular, and nearly everyone?s favorite champion. Now he suddenly realized that Cedric was in fact a useless pretty boy who didn?t have enough brains to fill and egg cup."(GOF 398) Just thought I?d throw that out there... Jessica: Perhaps I'm expecting too much from a thirteen year old experiencing her first crush... Me: Yes, we agree on something! Jessica: ...but there are gaping holes of logic and sensibility in her seeming devastation that Harry needs a date to the Yule Ball and she's all ready taken. Me: Let?s take a look at canon, shall we... ***************************************************************************** "I asked [Cho] to go with me just now," Harry said dully, "and she told me [she?s going with Cedric]." Ginny had suddenly stopped smiling. "This is mad," said Ron. "We?re the only ones left who haven?t got anyone ? well, except Neville. Hey ? guess who he asked? *Hermione*!" "*What*?" said Harry, completely distracted by this startling new. "Yeah, I know!" said Ron, some of the color coming back into his face as he started to laugh. "He told me after Potions! Said she?s always been really nice, helping him out with work and stuff ? but she told him she was already going with someone. Ha! As if! She just didn?t want to go with Neville...I mean, who would?" "Don?t!" said Ginny, annoyed. "Don?t laugh ? " Just then, Hermione climbed in through the portrait hole. "Why weren?t you two at dinner?" she said, coming over to join them. "Because ? oh shut up laughing, you two ? because they?ve both just been turned down by girls they asked to the ball!" said Ginny. That shut Harry and Ron up. "Thanks a bunch, Ginny," said Ron sourly. "She?s lying," said Ron flatly, watching her go. "She?s not," said Ginny quietly. "Who is it then?" said Ron sharply. "I?m not telling you, it?s her business," said Ginny. "Right," said Ron, who looked extremely put out, "this is getting stupid. Ginny, *you* can go with Harry, and I?ll just ? " "I can?t," said Ginny, and she went scarlet too. "I?m going with ? with Neville. He asked me when Hermione said no, and I thought ... well ... I?m not going to be able to go otherwise, I?m not in fourth year." She looked extremely miserable. "I think I?ll go have dinner," she said, and she got up and walked off to the portrait hole, her head bowed. Ron goggled at Harry. "What?s got into them?" he demanded. But Harry had just seen Parvati and Lavender come in through the portrait hole. The time had come for drastic action. (GOF 399-401) ***************************************************************************** Is this where you are saying she is overreacting? Looking extremely miserable and walking off to dinner with her head bowed? I argue that this is not what I would consider an overreaction. I?ll grant you that she is bummed that she might have had the chance, slim as it was, to go with Harry at Ron?s suggestion, but she could also be bummed that she is going with *Neville*, whom the boys were laughing at just a minute ago..."[Hermione] wouldn?t want to go with Neville ? I mean, who would?" as Ron said earlier. To be the brunt of that joke would make me miserable as well. And she found out the object of Harry?s affections just a few moments ago was the very pretty Ravenclaw Cho. The whole situation isn?t pleasant for her. But, instead of bursting into tears and running up to her dorm room, she feels miserable and leaves with her head bowed. I consider this a natural reaction, not an overreaction. Especially for a thirteen-year-old female who is probably experiencing a bourgeoning of emotions just from going through puberty. But hey ? that?s just me! Jessica: Ginny's baselessly assuming that Harry would have asked her to the ball if she wasn't all ready going with Neville. I could understand her having a little disappointment that she were "out of the running," so to speak, if there were even the slimest chance. But what reason does she have to actually believe Harry would've even considered her? Me: Do you mean considered her before this scene in the book, when the boys *should have* been asking girls and not procrastinating, or considered her at that moment of Ron? suggestions? I consider those situations to be very different . I will point out that we have no reaction whatsoever from Harry after Ron suggests Ginny go with him. We don?t read thoughts like, "Oh, no, *Not Ginny*! She?ll be blushing the entire time!" Or "Yeah, that would work. At least I would go with someone I know." Or anything. So, if we are talking about this scene in particular, then we don?t have any canon supporting whether Harry considered it or not. If we are talking about *before this scene*, then yes, we know that Harry didn?t consider her. But she did accept Neville?s invitation, which shows me even if she was waiting around for Harry to ask her, she decided that she should accept Neville?s invite so she could go to the ball just for the sake of going. A more mature way to be than turning everyone down because she won?t give up on her dream date Harry and end up not going at all so she could cry all night on her bed. We do, however, have Ron?s reaction of not understanding what is bothering Hermione and Ginny. Poor clueless Ron. Jessica: He doesn't really have any kind of friendship with her, outside of the fact that she's Ron's sister. He has consistently and from their first meeting either ignored, been embarrassed by, or shrugged off all of the glaring indications that she fancies him. Me: I guess the way I?ve read how he reacts to her in CoS is that he "politely ignores" her blushing and awkwardness, like her elbow in the butter dish. In the rest of the books, he?s always been pleasant to her, but he doesn?t give any indication back that he is interested. I still stand by my theory that Fred and George sent Harry the embarrassing valentine and not Ginny. Jessica: She doesn't even seem to move in the same orbit with Harry. Sure, she's a year younger than Harry, so he'sless likely to be around her, but we see more of the Creevey brothers than we do of her. She's essentially a non-entity in Harry's life. How is it, then, that anyone with the tiniest shred of logic would actually assume that the likelihood of Harry asking her were great enough that she should get so obviously bent out of shape and go hide in her room? Me: Um...canon says she went down to dinner...You might be thinking of Hermione getting very obviously bent out of shape and storming off to her room after her confrontation with Ron about not noticing her (I snipped that part above but it?s on page 400 in GOF). Jessica: I don't think it's too much to expect of Ginny that, despite her feelings for Harry, she be able to acknowledge the reality of the situation and react like a reasonable human being. Me: Like Hermione did, right? Jessica: Instead, she's thrown into a misery so great that she immediately loses the ability to carry on a conversation with Ron and Harry or even be in Harry presence. Me: I guess we interpret that scene differently, because I don?t see her, as you melodramatically put it, in a "thrown into a misery so great..." She?s miserable, probably for many reasons like I stated above, and she leaves after she?s done talking about it. I wouldn?t say she lost the ability to converse. Jessica: I just think her emotional intensity is neither reasonable nor mature given her lack of evidence that he would consider asking her.And her reaction strikes me as just as childish as the giggling and blushing. The problem with Ginny, in my mind, is that she's guilty of the behavior so many exhibit around Harry and that he abhors. She doesn't know Harry. Her interest in Harry is not for the qualities that *really* make him Harry Potter, but for the mythic, heroic persona that the WW has thrust upon him. To her, he's an idea, not an actual person. Sure she's only 13, but Ron and Hermione, at 11, knew of Harry's reputation and still managed to forge layered, complex relationships with him as an individual. They weren't so terribly blinded by his celebrity that they couldn't see past it to the real person. Me: I?ll agree with the point that plot-wise Ginny?s role in COS was the stereotypical female fan (Colin being the male), but I don?t see evidence of that now in GOF. I think she knows him as more than Harry the Hero. She know?s he?s also Ron?s best friend, Hermione?s friend, her mom?s adopted son, a boy who has a hard time screwing up the courage to ask out girls and a boy who was rejected. These are things she can see from just being in Harry?s circle of influence. As for Ron and Hermione?s friendship, they didn?t *like him* like him, in a romantic way. They had a bit of celebrity shock when first meeting him, but got to know him as a friend soon thereafter. When I *liked* someone at that age, I was nervous around them, I said and did stupid things, and I blushed a lot. That sort of stuff got in the way of getting to know the person as a friend first. I would say her *liking* him is what has held Ginny back in getting to know Harry as a friend, more than the celebrity status/hero worship has. That is what I want to see...Ginny grow all the way out of her crush and just get to know Harry as a friend. Jessica: If Ginny *did* have any genuine concern for Harry, she would she would have acknowledged, based on a three-dimentional, fleshed out, unselfish understanding of Harry, the unlikelihood of Harry asking her to the ball. She would be surely be a bit disappointed, but be able to put a realistic spin on the situation. In being so wrapped up in the superficiality of Harry's public image, she negates his voice, his very existence as an individual. She either ignores or dismisses Harry's uncomfortable and uninterested pattern of behavior toward her because she wrapped up in this dream vision of him as her knight in shining armor. She disrespects his need to be understood, beyond The Boy Who Lived hysteria, as a *living boy*. Me: By what you are saying here, I think the only person perfect for Harry is McGonagall. I still don?t see strong evidence that she is still in hero-worship mode, because of how little she is in the books after COS, and the few scenes she is in shows she has matured somewhat in her reactions to Harry. Jessica: I don't assume that any of these behaviors are intentional on Ginny's part. She's not a bad kid. I don't think she has the self-awareness to understand to shallowness of her emotions for Harry. In other words, if she's *ever* going to be the girl for Harry, she's got a lot of growing to do. Me: Yes, Ginny does have some growing up to do, as do the Trio. I think she has started her ascent to maturity in GOF, and I truly hope we get to actually read about how she is maturing emotionally so that we don?t have to speculate whether she?s still in hero-worship-mode or not. As always, Jessica, you put forth a good argument. I hope what I said made sense to someone out there. I was never very good at debate; drama was more my cup of tea. I?m doing this more for my sake than trying to convince Jessica or anyone else out there of my side because I have a need to defend Ginny...I don?t know why, I just do. Lilac (who respects Jessica and agrees with her on the "Wrinkle in Time" series, but will agree-to-disagree with her on this issue :-) -Jessica ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From akirabou at yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 15:13:47 2002 From: akirabou at yahoo.com (Kara) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 15:13:47 -0000 Subject: Lilly's touch was:Magical protection -- the Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45027 "jastrangfeld" wrote: > Ok, I've just had a thought. It says while Harry's in > his "relations" care. That does not specifically say the "Dursley's" > care. If it were their care, are we talking "just" when he's in > their house? Then he's not protected at the elementary schools he > went to. I've wondered about that, too. I would think that he would be protected wherever he went, so long as he was staying with them. Or, if he has to be with them, or near them at all times to be protected.. well, he does go to school with Dudley. And it seems that any other time he's either at home, or he's with Petunia and/or Vernon (such as going shopping). > What if, and I know it's a stretch . . . but what if somehow there's > another relation there . . . say his parents are somehow still > involved in the afterlife? Perhaps this is still referring to the > protection of his mother dying to protect him? This is interesting, but if his mother was still protecting him.. wouldn't he be protected wherever he went? I would think if Lily's spirit was protecting him in some way, she would always be with him. Plus, he isn't really in her care. I mean, if we think > about it, and hmm I hope I have all this right now, but Dumbledore's > gleam in his eyes, maybe that referred to his knowledge or fierce > determination that Harry remain safe? My opinion on the gleam in his eye was because Harry had been touched by Voldemort, and survived. He had survived without his mother's protection. I'm quite annoyed, because my friend has my copy of GoF to read, so I can't look up the quote to be sure.. but if I remember correctly, Harry had just told Dumbledore that Voldemort can now touch him, and that is when Dumbledore gets the triumphant gleam. Because Harry has proven to be able to go up against Voldemort, without the protection, without help, and lived. And that's certainly something to be triumphant about. But, I know this one has been debated endlessly... so this has probably already been brought up. > Ok, so maybe I'm stretching this way too far out there, but does > anyone else have thoughts on this? I'm intriuged at the "relation's > care" rather than stating just the Dursley's names. It makes it that > so much more could be read into this :o) I am, too! It makes it sound that there are other relatives out there. ~ Kara (who is a newbie to the list :) From gandharvika at hotmail.com Sun Oct 6 17:12:38 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 17:12:38 +0000 Subject: [HP4Grownups]Mudblood Girl (FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45028 Hey! Can I write a Billy Joel filk, too? Mudblood Girl (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Uptown Girl_ by Billy Joel) Dedicated to those Draco/Hermione Shippers...I would never have imagined such a pair, but hey, it takes all kinds! Draco (with Crabbe and Goyle singing backups) Mudblood girl She's been living in her Muggle world I bet she never had a Slytherin guy Would have asked before, but was too shy I'm gonna try for a Mudblood girl She's been living in her Muggle world Now she's schooling here at Hogwarts and I wonder if she'll like a Slytherin man That's what I am My friends they mock me I don't mind her pedigree We'll make a good pair This I will guarantee She'll see I'm not evil What a thrill Maybe she'll be my Mudblood girl I have heard about her Muggle world She's gotten tired of that mundane life I can take her away from all that strife Maybe as wife Mudblood gal Hanging out with her Gryffindor pals I know what reputation Slytherin has Hope she will forget this prejudice 'Cause I have class And when she's studying Down at the library That's when I'll ask her If she will go out with me I hope she'll say, "Okay" Would be great Want to date With a Mudblood girl She's been living in her Muggle world Now she's schooling here at Hogwarts and I wonder if she'll like a Slytherin man That's what I am Mudblood girl She's my Mudblood girl You know I'm in love With a Mudblood girl My Mudblood girl You know I'm in love With a Mudblood girl My Mudblood girl You know I'm in love With a Mudblood girl -Gail B...personally waiting for a Ron/Hermione SHIP to come in :)> _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sun Oct 6 17:20:35 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 17:20:35 -0000 Subject: Application of lessons In-Reply-To: <20021005194302.78114.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45029 Barb P wrote: > And really, the only practical use Hagrid's classes have provided are > the bond between Harry and Buckbeak. Otherwise COMC classes have > been fairly useless as well. > > --Barb Not really: Harry is able to combat the screwts quite effectively during the GoF maze because he learnt about the creatures in CoMC. Krum and Fleur would have had many more problems with them, since they hadn't learned about the attacks and defences of the creature. It's interesting to note that Harry could have learnt very many things in those lessons, especially useful things that might have helped him in the challenges ahead, but that *due to Hagrid's teaching* he hasn't learned all that much. While knowledge of hippogrifs and screwts did come in useful, they lost almost an entire year studying flobberworms (in words of Harry, the best way to insure they could survive was to leave them alone). If, instead, they had studied dragons, Harry would have gained a lot. In short, Harry has met a good number of magical creatures thus far, and he could've learned how to face and interact with them if he had had proper CoMC lessons. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, ready to make a come-back to HP4GU after an extended absense From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sun Oct 6 17:59:26 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 17:59:26 -0000 Subject: Harry's innate abilities (Was: End of Harry Potter Series) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021001033447.0098e8b0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45030 GulPlum wrote: > Harry in the books (at least to date) is very largely > an accidental hero, and he does not relish being thought of as > anything but ordinary. He has no special abilities; in fact, he is > average or below-average in just about every respect, and we are > constantly reminded of this fact (he's small, studying doesn't come > easily to him, etc) and in fact the only thing at which he has proven > to be unnaturally adept is at summoning a Patronus, i.e. his father. Catlady has already touched this in her multi-themed post, but only briefly, so I'm going to elaborate. This exposition of Harry's character abilities is, IMO, totally wrong. Harry is shown to be a prodigy from almost the very begining. In PS, he half-heartedly confesses to Hagrid that he wouldn't be a very good wizard, and Hagrid promptly corrects him (I should re-read the books... I can't remember where that happens). In the same book, we discover that Harry has innate flying abilities: whilst almost everyone has troubles dominating the broom, he flies perfectly from the very start. AND he's capable of catching the snitches (which requires nerves of steel as well as a very good vision and intuition). Book 2 doesn't discover anything else in this matter (except possibly his innate loyalty to Dumbledore and his link to Fawkes). Book 3, on the other hand, shows us that Harry is a very powerful wizard when he studies (which he doesn't normally do) by having him learn a protection spell that, by all acounts, is way too advanced for a 3rd year. Not only that, he manages to scare off not a couple of dementors with it, but 100 of the creatures. I don't think that very many wizards, even experienced, would have the *raw* power necessary to scare off 100 dementors. This raw power, and Harry's afinity with DADA is going to be very important later on (JKR said so in an interview: while everyone concentrates on Harry's Quidditch exploits, he's becoming a very proficient DADA). But, most importantly, I think, are the revelations in book 4. Harry's quest for power continues: under the careful tutelage of Hermione, he learns any number of spells, some of which are even useful, for the last task. But more important than that, we discover that Harry has an innate resistance to the Imperius curse. Please note that Moody, by all acounts one of the most powerful Aurors, didn't manage to free himself in one whole year of enslavement. Crouch Sr took 6 or 7 months (and he was unsupervised). Crouch Jr took years. Harry manages in a matter of minutes. Even if conditions *were* subtly different, Harry was being placed under *supervised* Imperio and yet he manages to counter it from the very start (by refusing to jump, and although it doesn't totally work, no other Imperioed so far has been able to do that), and he quickly manages to resist it fully. If that is not innate powers, I don't know what it is. In fact, Harry represents the sort of hero that many of us would, at one point or another, want to be (at least I, being quite Hermione-like, would like to be): the sort of hero that doesn't *have* to work hard to get his powers. The technical definition is a superhero: born with his powers, Harry only has to tap into them and, with little or no work, manages to use them more fully than most adult wizards will ever be able to. Thankfully, JKR hasn't made his powers as plentiful as Superman's, but the raw capabilities are there, and Harry learns to use them a little better in every book, and even if it looks like hard work to our poor Harry, a brief overview of the time he dedicates to the spells shows that he doesn't really need all that much time to lea Message-ID: <009d01c26d64$c6d80c00$c5a2cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45031 > GulPlum wrote: > > << in fact the only thing at which he has proven to be unnaturally > adept is at summoning a Patronus, >> To which Catlady responded: > And flying a broom and catching a Snitch. And Parselmouth, but that > is a minus. Btw, I sometimes wonder if Harry got his flying and > Seeking ability from Voldemort the same as his Parselmouth: wouldn't > it make him crazy to find out that his proudest accomplishment came > from his worst enemy? To which I now add: Well, we do have McGonagall's word that James was a Quidditch player. "Your father would have been proud," she said. "He was an excellent Quidditch player himself." We also have Lupin's comment referring to Snape. "He especially disliked James. Jealous, I think, of James's talent on the Quidditch field." While it is never completely verified, it is strongly implied that Harry inherited his flying abilities from James. Now, back to Harry's strong points. Has he failed at anything that he's really tried? The Patronus of course was extremely advanced, and he managed that. There's the accio charm, which you can argue was assisted by Moody/Crouch in the first task, but there's still the graveyard scene when Harry accioed the cup. It seems to me that every time Harry really and truly sets his mind to learn something, he succeeds. I can't think of a single time when he just flat out couldn't conquer something. Kara writes: > My opinion on the gleam in his eye was because Harry had been touched > by Voldemort, and survived. He had survived without his mother's > protection. I'm quite annoyed, because my friend has my copy of GoF to > read, so I can't look up the quote to be sure.. but if I remember > correctly, Harry had just told Dumbledore that Voldemort can now touch > him, and that is when Dumbledore gets the triumphant gleam. Because > Harry has proven to be able to go up against Voldemort, without the > protection, without help, and lived. And that's certainly something to > be triumphant about. But, I know this one has been debated > endlessly... so this has probably already been brought up. Yes, it's been brought up, but who cares, the really good topics must keep coming up. :) The exact quote from GoF is: When Harry told of Wormtail piercing his arm with the dagger, however, Sirius let out a vehment exclamation and Dumbledore stood up so quickly that Harry started. Dumbledore walked around the desk and told Harry to stretch out his arm. Harry showed them both the place where his robes were torn and the cut beneath them. "He said my blood would make him stronger than if he'd used someone else's," Harry told Dumbledore. "He said the protection my--my mother left in me--he'd have it too. And he was right--he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face." For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. This, of course, could mean a number of things. I'm in a talkative mood, so I'll ramble on about my favorites. 1) This is the one I hate most of all, and really don't believe, but I'll get it out of the way. If Dumbledore is really a bad guy in a very good disguise, the triumphant gleam would mean, aha, Voldemort will triumph. Pathetic, that one, if you ask me, since Harry just got away again! However, I thought I'd throw it in and disregard it before someone else brings it up. :) 2) The fact that Dumbledore stands up so *quickly* as to startle Harry when he's just about to be referred to as old and tired, is interesting. Then walks around the desk and asks to see Harry's arm. Which implies that the location of the taking of blood is important. The only connection I can find is that this is Harry's right arm, cut in the crook of the arm, or elbow. It was Harry's right arm, at the elbow, broken by the Bludger (and deboned by Lockhart) in CoS. What that means, I don't know. But I see no other reason for Dumbledore to jump up to see where the cut occured, so it's got to be important somehow. But how? 3) Now, back to the point Kara was making, that Dumbledore's triumphant gleam occurs at the exact time that Harry has just explained that Voldemort was able to and did touch him. Yet Harry is safe and sound in Dumbledore's office. He lived. Again. So there may be perhaps another protection over him besides the one his mother left. Which brings up the theory of some sort of experimental work James and Lily (and Harry) may have been involved in. Something to do with the Sorcerer's Stone and the Elixir of Life. Harry could've been fed Elixir of Life or some chemical compound involving it. Now stop right there--Elixir of Life is certainly not going to hurt anyone, so it's not really experimenting on Harry. The experiment would be that no one would know if it would really protect him or not. And you can't try to kill him and see in case it didn't work. It could in fact, have been part of what saved him from Voldemort the first time. Lily's protection could've kept Voldemort from *literally* touching him. As we saw in SS/PS, while Quirrellmort could not literally touch Harry, he was trying to get to his wand to do something that way. Which implies that the literal touching and lack of "getting at" Harry are two separate things. In the graveyard, yes, Voldemort can *touch* Harry. But can he "touch" him with a spell strong enough to kill? He crucio's, of course, but that wasn't enough to kill him. I still think there's something else protecting Harry from Voldemort. Or death in general, perhaps, though that still needs developing. :) Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From akirabou at yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 17:20:59 2002 From: akirabou at yahoo.com (Kara) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 17:20:59 -0000 Subject: Sweaters/ Application of lessons In-Reply-To: <00f401c26ce2$f7e3b7e0$129ccdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45032 Richelle wrote: >>> Now here's another question. As Ron pulls his sweater on George says "You haven't got a letter on yours, I suppose she thinks you don't forget your name. But we're not stupid--we know we're called Gred and Forge." Who's sweater was he talking about not having a letter? I always thought it was Harry's that didn't have a letter, but the context implies Ron doesn't have a letter. Percy's does, so I guess he meant Harry's?<<< That's funny, because it never mentions Ron's having a letter at all. But it really seems like George -was- talking to Ron.. because it never indicated his attention had left Ron to go to Harry. But why would Ron be the only one without a letter? Maybe Mrs. Weasley ran out of time? Hehe Barb P wrote: >>>While the students may not have used Transfiguration to conquer any of the large threats experienced during the first four books, Transfiguration WAS responsible for one of the most daunting challenges on the way to the Philosopher's Stone (McGonagall's enchanted chess board),<<< Just a little snippet from the post I'm referring to.) .. And let's not forget Mad Eye Moody transfiguring Draco into a ferret. Not important, but very amusing. ;) GulPlum wrote: >>>> therefore wondering: is Transfiguration as useless to the plot as its teacher, or is JKR deliberately holding back and saving up Transfiguration (and McGonagall) for a BANGY moment at the climax of the series?<<< Perhaps JKR is waiting for something important to happen when the kids get better at it? Only in the later years of school can they really do major transfigurations. Richelle wrote: >>> Yes, that's it. The second one. JKR is saving McGonagall and transfiguration for a climactic scene. Harry will transfigure Voldemort into a slug and step on him. :) <<< LOL! ~ Kara (who should have combined this with her previous post - sorry!) From Bootekusic at msn.com Sun Oct 6 18:24:52 2002 From: Bootekusic at msn.com (bootekusic) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 18:24:52 -0000 Subject: The Marauder's Map & Pettigrew Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45033 Ok, first off, I am new here so I apologize if this has been brought up before. Heres the issue, the Marauder's Map is introduced in chapter 10 of POA. Wouldn't Harry have seen Peter Pettigrew's name on it? We know that Animagi show up on the map because Prof. Lupin said he saw Pettigrew's name on it. If he had been checking on it before why hadn't he seen Pettigrew's name before that? Is this a valid question or am I just confused? - Bootekusic From jmmears at comcast.net Sun Oct 6 18:58:42 2002 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 18:58:42 -0000 Subject: Ron and Maroon/Ginny and Crushes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45034 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Risti" wrote: > As for the dress robes, well, think about a Muggle second hand > store. the classic baby blue, ruffled tux. I'd always pictured Ron's maroon > lace dress robe to be the equivilent to one of these. There honestly > wasn't much selection, especially when you take into consideration > that he's a 14 year old boy, and therefore finding the right size > could be tricky. This is an excellent point and I've never thought to make this parallel. Also, when you consider the relative smallness of the WW and the fact that the Yule ball is being held for the first time in many years, just how many second hand dress robes could there possibly be to choose from for a fourteen year old boy? I can't imagine any other occasions when a boy that age would need one, so it makes perfect sense that the few available would likely be *very* old. Well done, Risti! Risti again: This is the state I see Ginny > reaching in GoF. Harry is no longer just 'the boy who lived,' > > at a point where she can start acting like herself around Harry, and > truly be his friend, no matter what emotions might still swirl around > inside of her head. Again, I think that you are correct. Many posters seem to be stuck in their impressions of Ginny as a 10 year old, worshiping this famous boy from afar. However, after having spent 3 entire years (by the end of GoF) around Harry, there's no way she could still be in the same hero-worshiping state. Not only does she see him all the time at Hogwarts, he actually spent weeks at her home in the summers sitting at the same breakfast, lunch, and dinner table. The Burrow sounds like a pretty intimate place, so even if she wanted to avoid being in his presence, I don't see how she could manage it. At this point in the story, I think Ginny knows Harry far better than any other girl in the books (apart from Hermione, of course). IMO JKR has sent pretty clear signal in GoF, that Ginny has matured a great deal through her behavior surrounding the Yule ball, and if she were still the same swoony adolescent she wouldn't have had the nerve to risk Harry's irritation by telling Hermione that he and Ron had been turned down by the girls they invited to the ball. She was ticked off at both of the boys at that moment, and not afraid to show it. Jo Serenadust From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Oct 6 20:46:47 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 15:46:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sweaters/ socks References: Message-ID: <001301c26d79$7e959d80$e69ccdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45035 Kara wrote: > That's funny, because it never mentions Ron's having a letter at all. > But it really seems like George -was- talking to Ron.. because it > never indicated his attention had left Ron to go to Harry. But why > would Ron be the only one without a letter? Maybe Mrs. Weasley ran out > of time? Hehe I always thought it meant Harry's until I reread it. And grammatically speaking "yours" referring to "your sweater" should have been to the last person he spoke to. Which was Ron. Now, back on the topic of sweaters, socks, and appreciating such things. The reason Dobby has such a fascination with socks is because that was the instrument of his freedom. If Harry had wrapped the diary in a sweater and done the same thing, and Dobby had caught it, he'd have a fascination with sweaters. But it's not, it's socks. Now, consider Ron. He clearly doesn't appreciate his sweaters his mom gives him each year. In GoF he immediately gives it (and the socks) away. Yet it was an expression of love. Hold that thought. Now to Dumbledore, who says (and some say it wouldn't be in there if it weren't so) he saw himself holding a pair of thick woolen socks. Now suppose (and I believe this has been explored before) Dumbledore had a wife who made him socks every Christmas. And he never appreciated it. Tossed them aside, joking prehaps. Then one year she dies, and the next Christmas, of course, there are no socks. And ever since then all he's really wanted for Christmas were those socks. Not meaning he truly wanted the socks, but what they were symbolic of, his wife's love, and how he really just wanted her back. Back to Ron. Often one never truly appreciates what they have until it's gone. Should Mrs. Weasley die (NO!) I'm sure Ron's mind would instantly go to those sweaters he so carelessly tossed aside that she worked so hard to make him, whether or not they were the same and he hated maroon. She still put a lot of effort into it. Is there a connection there? I know there are a lot of "what ifs" but if there is something to the "Dumbledore saw socks" thing, maybe it's on that line. The house elf thing doesn't work for me (he's got clothes, for goodness sake!). Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From msbonsai at mninter.net Sun Oct 6 21:05:58 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 21:05:58 -0000 Subject: Rons robes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45036 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: Parapharsed, why can't the: house elves, Professor McGonagall or transfiguration help with Ron's robes? ...edited... Me: Ok, so if this is all too true, then why would they shop for clothes? Why would Mrs. Weasley need to find the really old stuff out, and feel soooo bad about it all? If this is the case, why doesn't she simply spin new robes out of thin air, or alter then? Why wait until he's already at Hogwarts to get a change?? Mrs. Weasly was obviously a little distressed herself about always having to do hand me downs to her children. Just my little old opinion :o) Mrs Bonsai (Julie) From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 6 22:40:33 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 22:40:33 -0000 Subject: FILK: Hogwarts Dream Rhapsody Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45037 Hogwarts Dream Rhapsody [based on the recent discussion about whether the Wizarding World really existed, or was just a fantasy of Harry's while he was living in his cupboard with the Dursleys] To the tune of Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody." (Can't find a link, I'm afraid, but where have you been living for the past 20 years if you don't know it? In a cupboard? [grin]) [Harry, lying on his bed in his cupboard, alone] Harry: Is this a dream world Hogwarts just fantasy? Lost in a cupboard One escape from reality. Closing my eyes Fly up to the skies. I'm free! I'm such a strong boy I'll need no sympathy, [He picks up a sheet of paper and starts writing] Because I'm thinking up writing down dreaming some dreaming all. Any way the plot goes It all really matters To me To me. Mother, just killed you off. The car crash sounded dull Voldemort A.K'd you all. Father, not writing for fun, Just I'm not gonna throw my life away. Mother,ooo ooooh Didn't mean to make me cry. You'll not come back again It's such a sorrow. Carry on Carry on Because all this really matters. [Instrumental] Hogwarts Your time has come. There's trouble down the line, Evil's coming all the time. Goodbye Little Whingeing, I've got to go. I will leave you all behind, Create my truth. [The ghostly forms of characters from the books appear around Harry] Harry: Father, ooo ooooh Characters: (Any way the plot goes.) Harry: Wish you hadn't died The Dursley's wish I'd never been born at all. [Instrumental] Harry: I see a shining silhouetto of a man; Dumbledore, Dumbledore Priori Incantatem Voldemort and graveyards Very very frightening be. Harry: Quidditch playing Characters: Quidditch playing Harry: Quidditch playing Characters: Quidditch playing Harry: Quidditch playing Characters: Dementor! Harry: McGonagall! Harry: I'm just a poor boy Nobody loves me I'll be a wizard From a rich family Creating my life In a rich fantasy! Thinking up Writing down Will I let you go? Wizard world No, I will not let you go. [From outside the cupboard the Dursley's sing] Dursleys: Let it go! Harry: Wizard world, I will not let you go! Dursleys: Let it go! Harry: Wizard world, I will not let you go! Dursleys: Let it go! Harry: Will not let it go! Dursleys: Let it go! Harry: Never, never,never, never, never, never. Dursleys: Let it go! Harry: No, no, no, no, no, no,no. Harry: Oh Dumbledore, Dumbledore, Dumbledore help me now. Uncle Vernon has a care home put aside for me, For me For me For meee! [Instrumental] Harry [to Dursleys]: So you think you can snub me Not look in my eye! So you think you can hate me And want me to die! Oh, Dursleys Can't do this to me Dursleys. I've gotta way out. I've gotta way right out of here. [Instrumental] Characters: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. [Instrumental] Harry: Hogwarts really matters, Anyone can see. Hogwarts really matters, Hogwarts really matters to me. [Piano instrumental as the characters who'll be in Book 5 appear around Harry as he writes furiously.] Characters (softly): Any way the plot goes. Pip!Squeak From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Sun Oct 6 23:52:19 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 00:52:19 +0100 Subject: Lilly's touch was:Magical protection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021006232704.0096e850@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45038 Mrs Bonsai (Julie) wrote: >Ok, I've just had a thought. It says while Harry's in >his "relations" care. That does not specifically say the "Dursley's" >care. If it were their care, are we talking "just" when he's in >their house? Then he's not protected at the elementary schools he >went to. Indeed, let's look at the specific phrase: "In his relations' care". More particularly, the word "care". I take that to mean just a little more than "in the presence of an adult who has care of him". What I take that to mean is periods of time for which the people assuming a legal duty of care (regardless of legal system), are those to whom Harry is related. Specifically, in Harry's situation, Petunia Dursley (by dint of being a blood relative) and Vernon (by dint of being related by marriage). Technically, Dudley cannot "care" for Harry as he himself is not an adult. As Harry is not related to the Weasleys by blood or marriage (at least not until the Harry+Ginny SHIP takes off and is formalised, but see also below!) :-) the protection Dumbledore has put in place does not protect him when he is "in their care". With just a couple of exceptions, other than when at Hogwarts, Harry's care is always technically passed on from one known adult (known to Dumbledore & the WW authorities, that is) to another with no gaps. Vernon picks him up at Kings Cross at the end of every school year stright off the Hogwarts Express, and also delivers him there at the beginning of PS/SS. I've always wondered about Vernon's motivations for this (apart, perhaps, from the first trip to London, as he says he's dropping Dudley off to have his tail removed). Anyone who knows anything about London geography (specifically, where Kings Cross is in relation to Surrey) will appreciate that, wherever in Surrey Little Whinging is meant to be, the round car trip will be about two hours, including lots of traffic and concomitant fraught nerves. If I were in Vernon's shoes, I'd not relish the idea of giving a lift to a nephew I disliked and spending an hour in his exclusive company! Yet Vernon appears to do this voluntarily, although *dutifully* might perhaps be a better word... The few exceptions of Harry being in the care of a named adult (such as when the Weasleys rescue Harry at the beginning of CoS, or when Harry runs away at the beginning of PoA), cause significant consternation to all adults concerned. The sequence at the beginning of PoA is telling for me: Fudge makes sure that "care" for Harry is passed on to a named individual -Tom the Barkeep - and both Tom and Harry are aware of it. Harry is specifically enjoined not to venture out into Muggle London, inferring for me at least, that Tom's (temporary) protection doesn't extend that far. None of all that, of course, explains why Harry is allowed to be in *anyone else's* care at any time, considering not only Dumbledore, but even Voldemort, attach such importance to the care he receives from his relations. The question therefore arises, why Voldemort doesn't choose to get to Harry when he's in the care of the Weasleys. Some people (myself included, sometimes) therefore say, "a-ha! Harry must be related to the Weasleys *in some way*, as the text implies that he is safe when in their care!" However, that statement falls down when Molly informs Harry at the end of GoF that Harry can't return to the Burrow at the end of the school year, but must spend some time with the Dursleys first. We are thus left with the enigma not only of what's so special about the Dursleys (or Privet Drive - but that's a *completely* different conversation!), :-) but why it is that after a period of time with them, Harry can be (fairly) safely released into the care of another adult. Frankly, IMO it is impossible to formulate a theory on this topic as there are simply far too many variables involved. >What if, and I know it's a stretch . . . but what if somehow there's >another relation there . . . say his parents are somehow still >involved in the afterlife? Perhaps this is still referring to the >protection of his mother dying to protect him? If Harry's parents' protection extends into their afterlife (certainly James's does in one way at least, as Harry's Patronus - see recent conversations on that subject) then this protection must be very localised to Little Whinging. Note Molly at the end of GoF as outlined above. Personally, I don't think the "relations" in the quote in question could refer to anyone but the Dursley family. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who's spent far too much time on this post when there are several other interesting ones waiting to be dealt with! From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Mon Oct 7 00:28:42 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 01:28:42 +0100 Subject: The Marauder's Map & Pettigrew Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021007012755.00970380@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45039 bootekusic wrote: >Ok, first off, I am new here so I apologize if this has been brought >up before. Welcome! There are very few subjects which haven't been brought up before. ;-) >Heres the issue, the Marauder's Map is introduced in chapter 10 of >POA. Wouldn't Harry have seen Peter Pettigrew's name on it? We know >that Animagi show up on the map because Prof. Lupin said he saw >Pettigrew's name on it. If he had been checking on it before why >hadn't he seen Pettigrew's name before that? Is this a valid question >or am I just confused? Yes, it's a valid question, and has been the subject of conversation on many HP forums for a long time. By the time he finds out about Peter, Harry's used the Map only a few times, for the specific purpose of finding out who is immediately around him and to use the tunnels to get to Hogsmeade. Both times, Ron (and presumably, Scabbers/Peter) were in Hogsmeade, which isn't covered by the Map. The one time Harry might have seen Peter's name on the Map would have been immediately before they all enter the tunnel under the Whomping Willow, but Harry is too busy observing what's going on to look at the Map. A more interesting question, however, is why it never shows two Harrys and Hermiones in the Hogwarts grounds at the end of PoA (don't ask, just look at the archives to check out the various theories). :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, taking over greeting functions for a moment. :-) From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 00:33:42 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 17:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lilly's touch was:Magical protection In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021006232704.0096e850@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <20021007003342.34683.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45040 GulPlum wrote: Indeed, let's look at the specific phrase: "In his relations' care". More particularly, the word "care". I take that to mean just a little more than "in the presence of an adult who has care of him". What I take that to mean is periods of time for which the people assuming a legal duty of care (regardless of legal system), are those to whom Harry is related. [snip] With just a couple of exceptions, other than when at Hogwarts, Harry's care is always technically passed on from one known adult (known to Dumbledore & the WW authorities, that is) to another with no gaps. Vernon picks him up at Kings Cross at the end of every school year stright off the Hogwarts Express, and also delivers him there at the beginning of PS/SS. [snip] The few exceptions of Harry being in the care of a named adult (such as when the Weasleys rescue Harry at the beginning of CoS, or when Harry runs away at the beginning of PoA), cause significant consternation to all adults concerned. The sequence at the beginning of PoA is telling for me: Fudge makes sure that "care" for Harry is passed on to a named individual -Tom the Barkeep - and both Tom and Harry are aware of it. Harry is specifically enjoined not to venture out into Muggle London, inferring for me at least, that Tom's (temporary) protection doesn't extend that far. Me: At that time, everyone was worried about Sirius Black coming after Harry. Arthur Weasley, among others, is convinced that Harry is Sirius' target because he kept repeating, "He's at Hogwarts," in his sleep, when he was still in prison. Everyone assumes, of course, that he's referring to Harry, not Peter. Prior to that, when Harry was ignorant of being a wizard and then during the summer between first and second year, no specific threat was considered to exist for Harry as Voldemort had not risen again and no escaped murderers were after him. No adult took over his care when he was rescued from Privet Drive by Ron and the twins, as you note, but I don't believe this caused "consternation" to all concerned; Molly seemed most upset that the twins had stolen the car, and then that Arthur had charmed the car. Harry being at the Burrow did not seem to concern her. He was very likely not as safe at the Burrow during that summer as he would have been on Privet Drive, but a specific threat wasn't feared at the time, either. Of course, Dumbledore must have feared that Voldemort would rise again at some point or he wouldn't have devised the "ancient magic" on Privet Drive to protect Harry in the first place. Evidently, his staying at the Burrow between first and second year was deemed to be an acceptable risk. GulPlum wrote: None of all that, of course, explains why Harry is allowed to be in *anyone else's* care at any time, considering not only Dumbledore, but even Voldemort, attach such importance to the care he receives from his relations. The question therefore arises, why Voldemort doesn't choose to get to Harry when he's in the care of the Weasleys. Me: Because he wasn't strong enough to do anything until the end of the fourth book. He was a mess during the summer between third and fourth year. There is no reason to infer from this that Harry must be related to the Weasleys. As for Harry having to wait to go to the Burrow after fourth year, I believe that Dumbledore needs time to devise a protection for him there that would be as effective as what is being used on Privet Drive. He's probably very glad he put that protection in place now that Voldemort is back. And, as that is the only place where such thorough protection exists for Harry as yet, that is the only acceptable place for him to go at the end of the term. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Mon Oct 7 01:26:50 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 02:26:50 +0100 Subject: Harry's "care" (was Re: Lilly's touch) Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021007022614.00979bc0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45041 (Before I start my reply, I must admit that I have absolutely no idea why I went off on a tangent about "passing on formal care for Harry" in my previous post, as it really had nothing to do with the gist of the post. Furthermore, Barb's comments have convinced that I seem to have been barking up entirely the wrong tree anyway. It may be wise to drop that entire line of thought.) :-) Barb P wrote: >No adult took over his care when he was rescued from Privet Drive by Ron >and the twins, as you note, but I don't believe this caused >"consternation" to all concerned; Molly seemed most upset that the twins >had stolen the car, and then that Arthur had charmed the car. Harry being >at the Burrow did not seem to concern her. He was very likely not as safe >at the Burrow during that summer as he would have been on Privet Drive, >but a specific threat wasn't feared at the time, either. Of course, >Dumbledore must have feared that Voldemort would rise again at some point >or he wouldn't have devised the "ancient magic" on Privet Drive to protect >Harry in the first place. Evidently, his staying at the Burrow between >first and second year was deemed to be an acceptable risk. I have absolutely no idea what the relevance of the following has to all of this, but I've just taken another look at the beginning of CoS. It goes further than your observations. There is an indication that it didn't cross the Weasley parents' mind that it would be wise or necessary to inform *anyone* that Harry was at the Burrow (despite knowing that Harry had escaped from the Dursleys without their consent), and when the Hogwarts letters arrive a week after Harry's arrival, Arthur's comments indicate that he has no idea how Dumbledore found out Harry was there. Apart from the curiosity of just how Dumbledore found out (yes, I am convinced that his watch has something to do with it), :-) it seems strange to me that the caring Weasleys wouldn't consider it important to contact the Dursleys, or at least Dumbledore, to let them know that Harry was safe. Contrast this with their attitude at the beginning of PoA or GoF when they are particularly fearful for Harry's safety. (Yes, I know Sirius was on the loose at the beginning of PoA, but they seem to go to extraordinary lengths at some points whilst being quite nonchalant at others.) -0- GulPlum AKA Richard, without a clue what he's trying to say... :-) From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 01:59:13 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 18:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New Acronym Message-ID: <20021007015913.19617.qmail@web40302.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45042 Okay, everyone... I'm nervously putting forth a new acronym. I looked all over Inish Alley for a theory like this, but I couldn't find anything about the valentine (If someone else knows of one, please let me know). I ran it by Nicole, my acronym beta reader :), and she gave me her thumbs up, so here goes... Okay, I've always thought that the valentine that Ginny supposedly "sends" to Harry in COS sounded a little fishy. And then I found fan-fic while waiting for book 5 and have read in numerous fics (I don't even remember which ones, too many to research at the moment, but suffice it to say that it is not my original idea) that say that Fred and George sent the valentine, and that made a whole lot of sense to me. Here is canon: *************************************************************** "Right," [the dwarf] said, sitting on Harry's ankles. "Here is your singing valentine: His eyes are as green as a fresh pickled toad. His hair is as dark as a blackboard. I wish he was mine, he's really divine, The hero who conquered the Dark Lord." Harry would have given all the gold in Gringotts to evaporate on the spot. Trying valiantly to laugh along with everyone else, he got up, his feet numb from the weight of the dwarf, as Percy Weasley did his best to disperse the crowd, some of whom were crying with mirth. "Off you go, off you go, the bell rang five minutes ago, off to class, now," he said, shooing some of the younger students away. " *And* you, Malfoy -- " Harry, glancing over, saw Malfoy stoop and snatch up something. Leering, he showed it to Crabbe and Goyle, and Harry realized that he'd got Riddle's diary. "Give that back," said Harry quietly. "Wonder what Potter's written in this?" said Malfoy, who obviously hadn't noticed the year on the cover and thought he had Harry's own diary. A hush fell over the onlookers. Ginny was staring from the diary to Harry, looking terrified. "Hand it over, Malfoy," said Percy sternly. "When I've had a look," said Malfoy, waving the diary tauntingly at Harry. Percy said, "As a school prefect -- " but Harry had lost his temper. Malfoy was looking furious, and as Ginny passed him to enter her classroom, he yelled spitefully after her, "I don't think Potter liked your valentine much!" Ginny covered her face with her hands and ran into class. (CoS pg 238-239) ********************************************************************** For one thing, there is no proof that Ginny wrote the valentine. We assume this by what Malfoy says, but I will argue that Ginny's reaction to Malfoy was that she was embarrassed that he thought she sent it, and how he said it in front of Harry pretty much humiliated her. The other thing that makes me suspect the twins is the wording of the poem. Not romantic. At all. Rather funny, actually, causing some students to cry because they were laughing so hard. Maybe they were laughing at the situation more than the poem, but I still think this is not a poem a girl with a crush would write. Now, I *can* see Fred and George writting this... ===================================== "Okay, how should we start the valentine?" said George. "Well, what does Ginny like about him?" said Fred. "His green eyes. Oh, yes..I've got it...'His eyes are as green as a..a...' " "...Fresh pickled toad!" Fred finished for him "That's perfect!" said George, writing it down. "Which contrasts so nicely with his black hair and pale skin." "Black hair, black hair..." Fred repeated, trying to think up the next line. "Hey, how's this...black board, rhymes with dark lord! His hair is as black as a blackboard and something something dark lord!" George said excitedly. "Black as a blackboard is good, but a little redundant...how about 'His hair is as dark as a blackboard'." "Good point, Fred. Okay, first two lines done, two more to go...Oh, this is going to be classic! Hope we're there to see it..." ==================================== On page 240, Harry escapes the common room that night partly because Fred and George keep singing "His eyes are as green as a fresh pickled toad" over and over again. They weren't there to hear the valentine in the hallway, but they know it enough to sing it over and over again. Granted, someone could have shared the info with them, but I think this is their way of reveling in their joke, especially since they weren't there to see the actual delivery. Okay, so now Harry thinks, because of what Malfoy said and his knowledge of Ginny's crush, that Ginny sent that awful valentine. So, Ginny's chances of having a future date with Harry is now slim at best. So, I submit to you... FAT CHANCE AT BALL Fred and Twin Concoct Harry?s Abhorrent Note, Causing Everyone?s Attention Towards Blusher As Loving Longingly. ~Lilac (who wears her BUTTERFLIES badge all the time, but on this situation, also wears a PRATTLESNAKES one right next to it) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Mon Oct 7 02:48:45 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 03:48:45 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Application of lessons In-Reply-To: <20021005194302.78114.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20021005161609.00a45220@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021007024023.0097e100@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45043 Barb P wrote: >While the students may not have used Transfiguration to conquer any of the >large threats experienced during the first four books, Transfiguration WAS >responsible for one of the most daunting challenges on the way to the >Philosopher's Stone (McGonagall's enchanted chess board), the Animagus >Transfiguration was important to the plot of the third book, and >specifically, McGonagall transfiguring herself into a cat and back to >human was introduced near the beginning of the first book, LOONy point. She doesn't transform herself in front of the class until PoA, during a lesson on Animagi. (OT: This is a piece of continuity the movie series is going to have to sort out, because obviously the topic is vital to the third book/film, and they've already lost their opportunity to introduce it at the right point.) >telling us very quickly that this is something possible for witches and >wizards to do (although we don't learn of its rarity until much >later). This is also an important plot point in GoF (Rita Skeeter) and it >is Hermione's knowledge of Transfiguration, I believe, that leads her to >conclude that Rita is an insect Animagus. Rita was not the extreme threat >in GoF that Voldemort and Crouch/Moody represented, but she was a minor >adversary who was conquered by Hermione's Transfiguration knowledge. I'm not sure whether to start with "all of that is irrelevant to the point I'm making", or "that's *exactly* my point", as there are elements of both in my reasoning. :-) Yes, it is indisputable that Transfiguration is important in the Wizarding World, and apart from the chess game in the first book (which I don't really see as a pure Transfiguration exercise anyway; the chess pieces are "intelligent" apart from being big), the only real appearance of Transfiguration in the plotline are the recurring Animagi. But this is a derived discipline and requires considerable skill well beyond Transformation itself. My point is that considering the "screen time" devoted to Transfiguration lessons throughout the books (even before the introduction of the Animagus concept), the kids themselves appear to have little practical use for it themselves. I agree that lessons in other subjects have barely a mention, but there appears to be a direct relationship between the "screen time" they get and their usefulness to the Trio. The kids have made little use of what they learn in Potions lessons, but what happens during the lessons themselves takes on importance. Charms lessons, apart from being eventful themselves, also teach the Trio useful spells, whether levitation, summoning or banishing (though admittedly they've not found a specific use for tap dancing pineapples or Cheering charms yet!). :-) You mentioned Astronomy. Whilst I agree that there seems to be a lack of "joined up thinking" (whether on the boys' part or JKR's is a matter of conjecture!) in applying what they learn there to the Astrology part of Divination, we have yet to witness an Astronomy lesson. We witness them on their way to or from the Astronomy tower a few times, but never the lesson itself. Personally, I take this as an indication that this is not necessarily going to remain to be the case. Apart from anything else, JKR has said that planets-obsessed Firenze will make a re-appearance and I suspect that there's a connection between him and Astronomy lessons. But that remains to be seen. Furthermore, I do not believe that it is in the slightest bit accidental that we know next to nothing about Prof. Sinistra. After all (and here I jump on to one of my HP hobby horses - etymology), her name, which literally translates as "the left hand side" is a female Latin word; its parent "sinister" ("left") is the source of the modern meaning of that word. I am prepared to buy a hat and eat it if by the end of Book Seven she is not proved to be VERY important. In the meantime, her current shadowy state fits her name very nicely. :-) >Oh, and I've yet to see Hermione apply Arithmancy to anything practical, >despite her near hero-worship of Professor Vector. Considering Harry doesn't attend those classes, we have reason to know very little about the subject. We don't even know what it entails or what it does, apart from relying on copious notes. We have no reason to assume that Hermione hasn't applied it in some way or another; she simply hasn't told us/Harry. Again, however, the fact that we know so little about it makes me smell great things to come. And so back to my original point: if Transfiguration gets so much "screen time" and we even know what the teacher's night clothes look like (yes, I'm being disingenuous) :-) why do the Trio not *use* what they've learned? >And really, the only practical use Hagrid's classes have provided are the >bond between Harry and Buckbeak. Otherwise COMC classes have been fairly >useless as well. Grey Wolf (welcome back, G.W.!) :-) has already suggested that Harry's knowledge of the Skrewts and other creatures has been of assistance; the situation with Buckbeak is more (or less, depending on your POV) than "bonding": Harry knows how to behave with a Hippogriff, which he wouldn't otherwise. In any case, as I see it, Hagrid's lessons have three other functions: they give Harry an opportunity to see more of Hagrid than he otherwise would, "things" happen during Hagrid's lessons (such as the Draco incident, which has its own sub-plot), and much as Snape is an example of a not-particularly-good teacher one hates, Hagrid is a perfect of a not-particularly-good teacher one loves. And, on a lighter note, Richelle wrote: > Yes, that's it. The second one. JKR is saving McGonagall and transfiguration > for a climactic scene. Harry will transfigure Voldemort into a slug and step on > him. :) I therefore take it that you don't subscribe to the theory recently espoused (inter alia by myself) that Harry's ultimate defeat of Voldemort won't be by magical means? ;-) And on that last topic, I have several posts in my inbox in reply to my post about Harry's talent on which I wish to comment, but that'll have to wait until tomorrow/later today. It's now 3.45am, and time I retired to my own four-poster. :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, surprised how long he's spent on HPFGU replies tonight! From StarHermione86 at cs.com Mon Oct 7 02:16:15 2002 From: StarHermione86 at cs.com (StarHermione86 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:16:15 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Acronym Message-ID: <16a.150f1f4e.2ad2486f@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45044 In a message dated 10/6/02 6:59:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, lilac_bearry at yahoo.com writes: > His eyes are as green as a fresh pickled toad. > > His hair is as dark as a blackboard. > > I wish he was mine, he's really divine, > > The hero who conquered the Dark Lord." > I agree and would also like to point out that it does sound like a previous poem concocted by Fred and George: "Sunshine, daisies, butter mellow, Turn this stupid fat rat yellow." I believe that creative, er... poetry is in Fred and George's line. If I'm not mistaken I believe that have also tutored the suits of armor in colorful versions of Christmas Carol's. The signs clearly point to the twins as the main suspects. Ginny, I believe, was just an innocent bystander. Sheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From the.gremlin at verizon.net Mon Oct 7 06:24:49 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 06:24:49 -0000 Subject: New Acronym In-Reply-To: <20021007015913.19617.qmail@web40302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45045 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Lilac wrote: > > Okay, everyone... > > I'm nervously putting forth a new acronym. I looked all over Inish Alley for a theory like this, but I couldn't find anything about the valentine (If someone else knows of one, please let me know). I ran it by Nicole, my acronym beta reader :), and she gave me her thumbs up, so here goes... > > Okay, I've always thought that the valentine that Ginny supposedly "sends" to Harry in COS sounded a little fishy. And then I found fan-fic while waiting for book 5 and have read in numerous fics (I don't even remember which ones, too many to research at the moment, but suffice it to say that it is not my original idea) that say that Fred and George sent the valentine, and that made a whole lot of sense to me. > > For one thing, there is no proof that Ginny wrote the valentine. >We assume this by what Malfoy says, but I will argue that Ginny's >reaction to Malfoy was that she was embarrassed that he thought she >sent it, and how he said it in front of Harry pretty much >humiliated her. Well, I reread part of PoA today, and I found this: "...and Ginny Weasley, blushing furiously, turned up with a get-well card she had made herself, which sang shrilly unless Harry kept it under his bowl of fruit" (PoA pg. 183, US Paperback). Now, I'm taking this to mean that she sent the Valentine card, if she's giving him the get-well card as well. Especially since the get- well card sings, and the Valentine card was a singing one. Of course, one could argue that she figured, "What the hell, I've already been embarassed awhen people thought I sent him the Valentine, why not go ahead and give him the get-well card?" -Acire, who is ever so happy to have her canon again, and promises to never leave it behind again. From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Mon Oct 7 09:58:40 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 10:58:40 +0100 Subject: Harry's innate abilities In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.20021001033447.0098e8b0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021007094759.00979610@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45046 Grey Wolf summarised Harry's thus: >Harry has innate flying abilities > >Harry is a very powerful wizard when he studies (which he doesn't normally >do) by having him learn a protection spell that, by all acounts, is way >too advanced for a 3rd year. > >Under the careful tutelage of Hermione, he learns any number of spells, >some of which are even useful, for the last task. But more important than >that, we discover that Harry has an innate resistance to the Imperius curse. And Catlady added his Parselmouth abilities. A bit like one of my replies last night, I'm not sure whether to start this with "that's all irrelevant" or "that's *exactly* what I mean". :-) Yes, Harry can do powerful stuff if he applies himself. But then, isn't that true of most things most people can do? Hermione has shown herself to be more talented with spells (she outshines not only Harry but the entire class in Charms and Transfiguration) and Ron appears to be faster off the mark in finding uses for spells and the like ("Wingardium Leviosa" with the Troll, for example). Whether it's because Harry doesn't trust his magical abilities yet, or still has 11 years of Muggle attitude to overcome, he still doesn't really seek magical solutions to problems when they crop up. Harry's main "talents" are an obstinate tenacity (together with its less positive side, stubbornness), fearless loyalty and a very, very strong will. Above all, Harry has an unwavering belief in his and his parents' *goodness*. Well, *almost* unwavering - Harry's two greatest moments of internal strife to date were in CoS when he suspected the possibility that he could in any way be related to Slytherin ideals and in GoF when he considers himself responsible for the death of another human being. The only talent which has come to Harry without application, without thinking and completely naturally (i.e. innately) are his flying skills. These, together with his Invisibility Cloak and the Marauder's Map, he inherited from his father in one way or another. It's interesting (for me, at least) that the main example of his great wizarding skills put forward is his Patronus, which is also connected to his father. It is, in fact, the pure *essence* of his father. Note also, on the subject of his Patronus, that he spends a great deal of time attempting to perfect it (I would submit that it is not in the slightest bit accidental that this is under the tutelage of one of his father's two best friends) and we have it drummed into us that the reason he ultimately succeeds is not because of some application of talent, but overcoming self-doubt. His overcoming Imperius is on a similar level: it is his will-power, his refusal to be corrupted, rather than any magical ability, which allows him to turn the tide. Actually, there's another talent Harry has without knowing he has it, and again it's very strong: being a Parselmouth. The explanation we have to date (note that this is one of few things Dumbledore is tentative about, and does not state as fact) is that this is a side-effect of Harry's run-in with Voldemort when he was a baby. This is considered to be an evil talent and Harry is ashamed to possess it. Personally, I have a strong suspicion that it will be part of Harry's final victory over Voldemort, turning it to a talent for good. >In fact, Harry represents the sort of hero that many of us would, at one >point or another, want to be (at least I, being quite Hermione-like, would >like to be): the sort of hero that doesn't *have* to work hard to get his >powers. I disagree most fundamentally with that assessment. On all levels. Harry has to work *very* hard to perfect his powers. I also think that the moral of the tale is that all of us could be the kind of hero Harry is, if only we applied ourselves and had sufficient belief that we can be a force for good. -- GulPlum, AKA Richard, borrowing Grey Wolf's sig: "that's my story, and I'm sticking to it". :-) From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Mon Oct 7 10:20:49 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 11:20:49 +0100 Subject: Men/Women interests In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.20021004024642.0096ad70@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021007110846.00988a40@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45047 When I earlier suggested >> that there are no characters [besides Fleur] who might appeal to >> [adult, heterosexual men's sexual fantasies] Catlady responded with > Madam Rosmerta. I suppose you have a point. :-) However, Madam Rosmerta isn't so much a character as a plot device. For one thing, we don't know the colour of her eyes (at least, I don't think so). :-) In any event, she (and other potentially "desirable" adult female characters) are in no way as well defined, or even sketched out, as the men. Thanks to everyone else who replied to my original musings, but part of my original point in which I'm interested and which I don't think I put across very well is this: doing a bit of self-psychoanalysis, to what extent do you ladies think that you like certain adult male characters (Sirius, Remus, Severus, Lucius) because of "crushes" primarily, and only then start analysing why you're attracted to them? I'm certain that I'm going off into OT-land here, so any replies might possibly be better addressed to the OT group... -- GulPlum, not sure whether the above has come across less delicately than intended :-) From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 7 11:16:49 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 11:16:49 -0000 Subject: Application of lessons In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021007024023.0097e100@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45048 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: > My point is that considering the "screen time" devoted to Transfiguration > lessons throughout the books (even before the introduction of the Animagus > concept), the kids themselves appear to have little practical use for it > themselves. Well, we do see people outside the Trio putting it to use during the Triwizard Tournament: Cedric transfigures a rock into a dog to distract his dragon during the first task, and Viktor transfigures himself (not entirely successfully) into a shark during the second task. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Mon Oct 7 11:21:54 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 11:21:54 -0000 Subject: Dobby and socks (LOON moment) In-Reply-To: <001301c26d79$7e959d80$e69ccdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45049 Richelle Votaw wrote: > The reason Dobby has such a fascination with socks is because that > was the instrument of his freedom. If Harry had wrapped the diary in > a sweater and done the same thing, and Dobby had caught it, he'd have > a fascination with sweaters. But it's not, it's socks. > > Richelle The (unofficial) LOON inside me wants to point out that, in fact, Dobby's obsession with socks might predate that scene. Harry's idea of the sock, in fact, comes from Dobby himself. IIRC, In the talk Harry and Dobby have after the quidditch match (while his arm's bones are growing back), Dobby mentions socks, as one of the pieces of clothing that would be enough to free him "My family is very careful not to pass me even a single sock". This is the origin of Harry's idea (any other piece of clothing would have been more onfortable for him, after all, than taking off the shoe and then the sock, and then putting a book inside it). Although I admit that it is the most discusting for Malfoy to receive, and thus the one who works the best. But, anyway, the point I want to make is that socks were on Dobby's mind before he received Harry's from Lucius. Maybe he wasn't as fascinated with them as he has later proven to be, but I have the feeling that, in fact, he already thought quite higly of that particular piece of clothing (for whatever reasons). Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 7 11:37:42 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 11:37:42 -0000 Subject: Harry's innate abilities In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021007094759.00979610@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45050 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: > Grey Wolf summarised Harry's thus: > >In fact, Harry represents the sort of hero that many of us would, at one > >point or another, want to be (at least I, being quite Hermione- like, would > >like to be): the sort of hero that doesn't *have* to work hard to get his > >powers. > > I disagree most fundamentally with that assessment. On all levels. Harry > has to work *very* hard to perfect his powers. I also think that the moral > of the tale is that all of us could be the kind of hero Harry is, if only > we applied ourselves and had sufficient belief that we can be a force for > good. > Gotta agree with that. Except for the first flying lesson in PS/SS, we never see Harry just coast through on his innate abilities. He's an incredibly talented flyer, but he still has to bust his ass training with the team. I'm willing to bet that if Harry had sat back and said, "you guys go ahead, I'm too talented to nee practice," that the results of the Gryffindor Quidditch matches would be quite different. To produce a Patronus, he has to go through debilitating practice session with the boggart, sessions that bring him great emotional pain and actually cause him to lose consciousness at one point. He grits his teeth and carries on, even when Lupin is concerned enough to suggest they should stop. He spends loads of time with Hermione practicing Accio for the First Task, and then spends even more time learning the various useful charms for the Third task. The one time he slacks off, during preparations for the second task, no innate talent comes to his rescue -- he comes dangerously close to failing, and Crouch Jr. has to scramble to make sure he gets the gillyweed information in time. Harry is a lot of things, but a hero who doesn't have to work hard isn't one of them. That's actually what makes him so appealing, I think. It's hard to work up sympathy for a protagonist who gets all his triumphs just handed to him on a platter. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Mon Oct 7 12:02:22 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 12:02:22 -0000 Subject: Harry's innate abilities In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021007094759.00979610@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45051 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: I said: > >In fact, Harry represents the sort of hero that many of us would, at > >one point or another, want to be (at least I, being quite > >Hermione-like, would like to be): the sort of hero that doesn't * > >have* to work hard to get his powers. To which GulPlum (aka Richard) answered: > I disagree most fundamentally with that assessment. On all levels. > Harry has to work *very* hard to perfect his powers. I also think > that the moral of the tale is that all of us could be the kind of > hero Harry is, if only we applied ourselves and had sufficient belief > that we can be a force for good. I thought very carefully about whether or not to include that particular thought you've quoted in my post, and the part that you've snipped is, in fact, a tempering of it (saying, basically, that not always he gets his powers for free). But I still feel that he gets a lot with little effort, and I'm going to put forward a few examples of it. Let's start with Quidditch. Harry knows how to fly -perfectly, it seems- from the very first moment he grabs a broom. McGonagal even mentions that "not even Charlie Weasley" could have catched the rememberall "without a scratch". Harry, obviously, does not work (much less hard) for that capability. I myself would love to be a "natural" at my favourite sports. But I'm not, and not even thorugh practice I've been able to improve all that much - which was what I was refering to in that quote above. In the same line, I have to mention that so far, I have seen several mentions of his capabilities as a quidditch player having been inherited from his father. Leaving aside for a moment that I don't think that that sort of ability is actually genetic, I have to point out that the skills required for a chaser and a seeker are so different that you cannot really compare them. A chaser combines (as Harry mentions) basketball abilities with some minor dodge flying abilities, but normally it's pretty straightforward. >From the descriptions of the game, and what we see in the CTTMNBN, a chaser mostly has to be capable of passing and receiving the ball and shooting to score while flying. While certain amount of dodging would be welcomed (especially when playing against Slytherin), it's not altoghether necessary (and of course, the Beaters are there to protect you from the bludgers). On the other hand, a seeker requires an amazing concentration in the middle of the chaos of the game, to seek out a very small and very fast ball. It requires, above all, flying capabilities to turn at high speeds, and extremelly fine control of the broom's direction at such speed... or a sharp turn of the snitch would put you out of the chase. You don't have to know how to fly with a quaffle, or how to pass it or receive it: you only have to be capable of finding, following and catching the snitch. And of course, you've better be nimble of body and mind. In conclusion, I don't think that Harry's flying abilities are inherited from his father. As I said earlier, I don't think you can actually inherit that sort of abilities (any more than you inherit any other sport ability), but even if you can, the sort of knack Harry has to catch small, fast moving things isn't all that close to his father's knack to put a red floating ball through a 15 meter high hoop. Back to the original point of this post (yes, I know I've gone *way* out of topic, but combining posts is approved of, so I don't feel *too* bad about it), Harry has other innate abilities. Parselmouth, for example. He can use that one without even *knowing* about it. The only times he actually has problems to use it (before the tap in mirtle's bathroom and before the CoS door) he is capable of reproducing the effect in a matter of a couple of minutes. That doesn't sound like work to me. Then we have the matter of Harry's own powers at magic. While it is true that most of the time Harry looks quite incompetent at *learning* the spells (although, once he's learned them, he shows amazing abilities), I have to point out that he learns to cast a Patronus in very few sessions. In fact, once he realises that he is, in fact, capable of doing it (aka gains self-confidence), he proyects enough power inside his patronus to scare *100 dementors*. This is also proof of his raw power (as I mentioned in my last post), but in this case I want to point out that he doesn't get more than a handful of private lessons from Lupin before he's capable of launching such an amazing spell. And finally, there is the matter of his resistance to Imperius. Powerfull, extremelly proficient wizards take months to liberate themselves from the Imperius curse, and Harry manages to (almost) liberate himself from the Imperius on his first chance. And he manages totally within the first few minutes of imprisionment. He doesn't really work all that hard at it - even though he feels it's one of the hardest things he's ever done, the fact that he manages so soon is another proof of his innate, unworked-for abilities. Of course any innate ability will improve if you work on it (and Harry certainly does), but my point was (and still is) that Harry, even though he has worked hard to improve his abilities, has started with quite a big head start over most of his peers. To put it simply: I feel that Hermione would have to practice for weeks before she could accio a broom from the castle while facing a dragon in the outermost part of Hogwarts. Harry manages within a day... and demonstrates that he has, once channelled, an amazing reserve of raw power. > GulPlum, AKA Richard, borrowing Grey Wolf's sig: "that's my story, > and I'm sticking to it". :-) I have to point out that "that's my story, and I'm sticking to it" is bboy_mn's handle, not mine. I always have lingering doubts about what I've written, and I'm prepared to change ideas if mine has too many holes in it (although I admire anyone who'll go down with the ship). I am best known for the "hope that helps", which means that I hope that whatever I've written helps other people to come up with their own ideas (even if they're totally oposed to mine). I know from my own experience that the best ideas come to me when reading other people's, and I hope that happens to other listees as well. If one of my ideas, even if it itself is wrong, helps someone else to formulate a correct theory, I'll be as proud of it as if my idea had been correct to begin with. So, Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 7 12:51:08 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 12:51:08 -0000 Subject: Harry's innate abilities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45052 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: > Let's start with Quidditch. Harry knows how to fly -perfectly, it > seems- from the very first moment he grabs a broom. McGonagal even > mentions that "not even Charlie Weasley" could have catched the > rememberall "without a scratch". Harry, obviously, does not work (much > less hard) for that capability. I myself would love to be a "natural" > at my favourite sports. But I'm not, and not even thorugh practice I've > been able to improve all that much - which was what I was refering to > in that quote above. > > In the same line, I have to mention that so far, I have seen several > mentions of his capabilities as a quidditch player having been > inherited from his father. Leaving aside for a moment that I don't > think that that sort of ability is actually genetic, I have to point > out that the skills required for a chaser and a seeker are so different > that you cannot really compare them. > > A chaser combines (as Harry mentions) basketball abilities with some > minor dodge flying abilities, but normally it's pretty straightforward. > From the descriptions of the game, and what we see in the CTTMNBN, a > chaser mostly has to be capable of passing and receiving the ball and > shooting to score while flying. While certain amount of dodging would > be welcomed (especially when playing against Slytherin), it's not > altoghether necessary (and of course, the Beaters are there to protect > you from the bludgers). > > On the other hand, a seeker requires an amazing concentration in the > middle of the chaos of the game, to seek out a very small and very fast > ball. It requires, above all, flying capabilities to turn at high > speeds, and extremelly fine control of the broom's direction at such > speed... or a sharp turn of the snitch would put you out of the chase. > You don't have to know how to fly with a quaffle, or how to pass it or > receive it: you only have to be capable of finding, following and > catching the snitch. And of course, you've better be nimble of body and > mind. > > In conclusion, I don't think that Harry's flying abilities are > inherited from his father. As I said earlier, I don't think you can > actually inherit that sort of abilities (any more than you inherit any > other sport ability), but even if you can, the sort of knack Harry has > to catch small, fast moving things isn't all that close to his father's > knack to put a red floating ball through a 15 meter high hoop. > Now me: I'm sure that you can inherit sports abilities, now I'm not that much of a sports fan (I'll get back to that) so lets take singers many offspring of singers have followed in their Dad's/Mum footsteps - both of John Lennons son's have released their on albums and most recently Ozzy Osborne's daughter has released her first single - so if singing can be inherited why not sport abilities? The only example I can think off in sport is Damien Hill - I believe he followed in his Dad's footsteps - Yes I know that this was formula 1 but I bet that many of you sports lovers can provide better examples. I'm sure my fellow Brits will be able to quote several footballers that have followed in their parents footsteps and maybe even a few cricketers, I'm sure that you Americans can name several American Footballers, basketballers (sooo much better than Netball :-)) and base ballers that have also followed in their parents footsteps, and I'm sure that some of you will be able to mention a few golfers, athletes, swimmers etc. But all I can quote is the above Damien Hill. And I'm sure that not all children that followed their parents into a sport actually play in the same position that their parents did. Now the only cannon we have to support the fact that Harry may have inherited his skills from his Dad is from Sirius in POA - he says - "you fly as well as your Dad" or something along those lines (even though I've read the books several times I can't quite remember the exact phrasing of this I must bring the books into work with me !! on second thought maybe not - I do actually need to get some work done occasionally ;-)) Now although this could be a generalisation it can be argued that there has to be at least some similarities between Harry's style of flying and his Dad's for Sirius to make this comparison. Also although JKR stated in an interview that James was a chaser in the movie it is stated that he's a seeker - although I know that the movie industry has a habit of chopping and changing great books to suit itself, it has been argued that both could be true and that James could have played in both positions. Something along the lines of he could have started out as a chaser (arguably it's easier to become a chaser simply because their are 3 chaser's compared to 1 seeker) but when the teams current seeker left James could have been changed from team chaser to team seeker. (Ok there's no cannon there but it's an explanation) My sentiments being that until its written in a book we have no concrete proof that James was never a seeker. Michelle From john at queerasjohn.com Mon Oct 7 13:51:29 2002 From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 14:51:29 +0100 Subject: ADMIN: Yahoo Troubles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45053 ***Covered in grime, John peers up from the Inner Workings of Yahoo which he has been investigating with the other Mods*** Hi folks, Yahoo is having Troubles. (Note the capital T.) If you've "lost" some of your YahooGroups, rest assured that you're not alone, and that we're hoping that they'll get it sorted out very quickly. If you have any YahooGroups questions, do give the Mods a call at mods at hpfgu.org.uk and we'll see if we can give you a hand. Regards, --John, technoMod ______________________________________ Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com www.queerasjohn.com AIM & YM @ QueerAsJohn "There's nowt as queer as folk." --English proverb ______________________________________ From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 15:35:50 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 15:35:50 -0000 Subject: Harry'sStrongPoints/ Magical protection/ the Gleam In-Reply-To: <009d01c26d64$c6d80c00$c5a2cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45054 Quotes from Richelle with comments from BBoy_mn: The exact quote from GoF is: When Harry told of Wormtail piercing his arm with the dagger, however, Sirius let out a vehement exclamation and Dumbledore stood up so quickly that Harry started. Dumbledore walked around the desk and told Harry to stretch out his arm. Harry showed them both the place where his robes were torn and the cut beneath them. "He said my blood would make him stronger than if he'd used someone else's," Harry told Dumbledore. "He said the protection my--my mother left in me--he'd have it too. And he was right--he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face." For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. This, of course, could mean a number of things. I'm in a talkative mood, so I'll ramble on about my favorites. 1) This is the one I hate most of all, and really don't believe, but I'll get it out of the way. If Dumbledore is really a bad guy in a very good disguise, the triumphant gleam would mean, aha, Voldemort will triumph. Pathetic, that one, if you ask me, since Harry just got away again! However, I thought I'd throw it in and disregard it before someone else brings it up. :) bboy_mn comment: Sorry, I'm not buying the evil Dumbledore theory either. Evil is inherently corrupt; it is self-defeating. You could say that Evil is the architect of it's own doom. Or at least, I could say that. Why would Dumbledore need to be evil? He can already be Minister of Magic, the highest office in the land. He is already Order of Merlin - First Class, Grand Sorcerer, Chief Warlock, Supreme Mugwump, and a prominent member of the International Confederation of Wizards, so he already has international recognition, respect, and power. Certainly with his skill and power, he could be as rich and powerful as he desired without being evil. He is not feared in the sense that Voldemort is, but he is certain recognized as the most powerful wizard alive, and people would certainly be afraid of getting on the angry side of that power. He is truly respected by a vast majority of the wizard world, so he has no need to force people to submit to him and show him respect as Voldemort does. Then there is Voldemort's theory that there is no good and evil only power and those who seek it. I say that true power is not making people to bend to your will, but making people willing to bend. Dumbledore certainly has that power. Even Voldemort himself could be the most politically powerful as well as magically powerful wizard in the wizard world, he could be rich beyond anyone's measure if he applied his talent, he could be truly respected by the wizard world; the only thing stopping him is that he is a totally insane irrational evil megalomaniac. Short version - Dumbledore can already have everything that being evil could possibly bring him, so what's the point of being evil? Certainly it's better to be loved by all and have everything than to be hated by all and have everything. -End Comment bboy_mn- 2) The fact that Dumbledore stands up so *quickly* as to startle Harry when he's just about to be referred to as old and tired, is interesting. Then walks around the desk and asks to see Harry's arm. Which implies that the location of the taking of blood is important. ...edited... bboy_mn comments: Dumbledore jumps to his feet and Sirius lets out a forceful and intense expression of emotion (vehement) when they discover Voldie has taken Harry's blood. I think that is because the use of a persons blood is the darkest, most evil, and powerful of all dark magic. In movies, in other stories, that darkest most evil magic usually involves someone's blood. To take the very essence of physical life from a person and make magic with that, is powerful nasty magic. At this point all they know is that Voldemort took Harry's blood, only after this do they look at the location and method, and discover the consequences, so they are reacting to the use of blood alone. Next the location and method, I agree, this has some importance; an importance that is certainly not clear at this point. I have to believe that magic hospitals are not so crude as to go around sticking needles into people, certainly small amounts of blood can be magicked out of a person. So Voldemort/Wormtail could have easily taken Harry's blood by magical means. It still would have been forcefully take in that it was taken against his will. But they chose to take it violently, they chose to take it in the most crude, basic, and non-magical way. The skin was pierced by a dagger. Why not pierced by a wand or a charm? So, while I certainly don't understand it, I tend to agree that their could be some significants to the method they used. Some significants that will work against them. That's probably not the explanation for everything that happening, but I think it's significant. -end comment bboy_mn 3) Now, back to the point Kara was making, that Dumbledore's triumphant gleam occurs at the exact time that Harry has just explained that Voldemort was able to and did touch him. Yet Harry is safe and sound in Dumbledore's office. He lived. Again. So there may be perhaps another protection over him besides the one his mother left. Which brings up the theory of some sort of experimental work James and Lily (and Harry) may have been involved in. Something to do with the Sorcerer's Stone and the Elixir of Life. ...edited... Richelle bboy_mn comments: Two things I like here. First, the gleam was in Dumbledore's eye because Harry had lost his protection and he still survived another encounter with Voldemort. No fanciful theories, no farfetched speculation; all very logical, straight forward, and well within the realm of reason. It's probably the simplest and most obvious explanation I've heard so far. Next, the possibility that there are protections in place that even Dumbledore doesn't know about or understand. While it is a little farfetched, I like the theory about experiments with the Philosopher's Stone. We know that the protection of the Stone is temporary; you have to keep taking it to stay immortal. And, it would seem that the time between doses is long, probably measured in years. If Dumbledore, Lily, and James knew that Harry truly was the chosen one, the 'Christ child' of the wizard world, savior of them all as foretold by the star and other signs; they would have certainly gone to great extremes to protect him. Even to the extreme of using the Elixir of Life or some component or experimental aspect of it. I suspect (totally unfounded) that they were trying to create some type of very short term shield for Harry. Much shorter than the time between doses of the Elixir of Life. And it may or may not have been an on-going experiment. They may have had the substance, and because it was experimental, only used it in the event of an extreme emergency. Nicolas Flamel and the Philosopher's Stone are just too big in this story to have their part over and done with. I think they will come back. I even think we will get to meet Nicolas Flamel, and he will be instrumental in helping Harry defeat Voldemort. Although Harry may not know about it until after the fact. This ties in with my death and resurrection theory. Of course, I believe that Nicolas Flamel is alive and well. To a nearly 700 year old man, 'getting your affairs in order' could take 10 or 20 years, maybe more. This could even be part of the residual protection that Harry carries. It may not make him invulnerable, but it may give him the strength to resist assaults that would cause lesser men to crumble. Finally, Harry's strengths- Harry has one strength that is above and beyond all others; he is a hero. He has a hero's heart, a hero's mind, a hero's old soul, and most of all, he has a hero's luck. The courage and determination of a hero are what pulled Harry through every adventure, they are truly his greatest strength. He is brave, courageous, stubborn and fiercely determined, has moral fiber, and a deep sense of selflessness. He does what has to be done for no other reason than it is the right thing to do. He puts the welfare of other over his own. He does not accept defeat even in the face of defeat. Harry Potter is a hero, and that has served him well. bboy_mn From ronib at mindspring.com Mon Oct 7 15:27:37 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 15:27:37 -0000 Subject: Ron and Maroon/Ginny and Crushes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45055 Defending Ginny Jo Serenadust: IMO JKR has sent pretty clear signal in GoF, that Ginny has matured a great deal through her behavior surrounding the Yule ball, and if she were still the same swoony adolescent she wouldn't have had the nerve to risk Harry's irritation by telling Hermione that he and Ron had been turned down by the girls they invited to the ball. She was ticked off at both of the boys at that moment, and not afraid to show it. me: YES! YES! Thank you, Yes! I think that JKR was very careful about how she showed Ginny in GoF. Every time we see her, we see how comfortable she is becoming around Harry. Here are a few examples (I don't have the book here for reference, sorry), though certainly not all. 1. When Harry arrives at the Burrow, and Mr. and Mrs. Weasley are dealing with the twins, Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Ginny all go up to Ron's room to escape. Certainly, Ginny is not one of the gang (they won't discuss Sirius with her there), but she doesn't see ill at ease. In fact, she helps explain about the twins' project, and talks with them very normally and comfortably. It is almost as if Harry and Hermione are part of their extended family. 2. At the WC, we see little of Ginny, but she is there the whole time. We don't see her dangling after Harry, or blushing and giggling. In fact, mostly, we see her fall asleep at the table and spill her cocoa. Pretty normal behavior around one's family. 3. The night before they leave for Hogwarts. Harry is taking care of his Firebolt, Hermione is reading, Ron is playing chess, and Ginny is sitting quietly taping up her old book. Again, I think we see that she is beginning to be herself when Harry is around. No hiding, or giggling, or doing anything self-conscious at all. 4. Finally, the much-debated scene before the Yule Ball. I won't go into detail, because I think Lilac did a BEAUTIFUL job in message 45026 of interpreting her actions. She was disappointed, yes, either because she might have been able to go with Harry or because she was going with Neville or likely both. But, I hardly think she overreacts to anything. As Lilac pointed out, the fact that she didn't wait around for Harry to ask her says volumes -- so does the fact that she is able to pick on Harry and Ron, just like a kid sister. "Because ? oh shut up laughing, you two ? because they've both just been turned down by girls they asked to the ball!" said Ginny." While Ginny is sadly underdeveloped. I hardly think that she is the flat character she is reputed to be. We have seen her hero-worship of Harry turn into a comfortable, if not close, friendship. She can be around him now without all the self-consciousness, blushing, and giggling of before. This change *may* (and I hope *will*) allow for further bonding of whatever kind in the future books. ---------------------------------------------------------- Concerning the sweaters Barb P wrote: That's funny, because it never mentions Ron's having a letter at all. But it really seems like George -was- talking to Ron.. because it never indicated his attention had left Ron to go to Harry. But why would Ron be the only one without a letter? Maybe Mrs. Weasley ran out of time? Hehe Me: Here is my theory. Warning, this is REALLY out there. Because I am such a stickler for grammar in all written form other than e-mail and web forums, I always assumed that comment was directed at Ron. Now, if you were doing laundry (at least while they aren't as school) for six boys of varied ages, don't you think you might have a little trouble keeping everybody's stuff straight? Granted Bill's stuff wouldn't be confused with Ron's but it might have gotten mixed up with Charlie's. And even in SS (again, sorry I can't reference the page, but it as at the train station while Mrs. Weasley was telling everyone good-bye), we learn that Ron is almost as tall as the twins. So, in order to make all the laundry easier to sort, maybe she uses a color-coding system. The twins' sweaters are blue (the letters distinguish Fred's from George's). Ron's are maroon. We don't know what color Percey's is (at least not in that scene), maybe his is green. Anyway, my point is that there might be more to it than we know. If you are *really* desperate to defend the sweaters, maybe we will one day learn that the color maroon has some special power we never suspected. Hee! Hee! Veronica From pen at pensnest.co.uk Mon Oct 7 16:37:51 2002 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 17:37:51 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Men/Women interests In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021007110846.00988a40@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <1F1741B0-DA13-11D6-92F8-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 45056 On Monday, October 7, 2002, at 11:20 , GulPlum wrote: > Thanks to everyone else who replied to my original musings, but part of > my > original point in which I'm interested and which I don't think I put > across > very well is this: doing a bit of self-psychoanalysis, to what extent do > you ladies think that you like certain adult male characters (Sirius, > Remus, Severus, Lucius) because of "crushes" primarily, and only then > start > analysing why you're attracted to them? > FWIW, I find the characters interesting first, and then (maybe) develop along the 'crush' lines. (Not sure if that answers the question you were posing, but then...) For me, the 'crush' element is likely to manifest in creating fanfics, and only comes about through finding a character intriguing. Incidentally, whether characters like Sirius, Remus and Severus are good-looking or not is irrelevant to their potential desirability as 'crush-objects'. I'd like to pick on a suitably developed female character to ask whether the same applies re female 'crush-objects', but I can't think of any! Pen From SaalsG at cni-usa.com Mon Oct 7 17:29:37 2002 From: SaalsG at cni-usa.com (Grace Saalsaa) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 12:29:37 -0500 Subject: Flamel /Dumbledore References: Message-ID: <001e01c26e27$1ccc5bd0$9f4053d1@DJF30D11> No: HPFGUIDX 45057 bboy_mn comments: Nicolas Flamel and the Philosopher's Stone are just too big in this story to have their part over and done with. I think they will come back. I even think we will get to meet Nicolas Flamel, and he will be instrumental in helping Harry defeat Voldemort. Although Harry may not know about it until after the fact. This ties in with my death and resurrection theory. Of course, I believe that Nicolas Flamel is alive and well. To a nearly 700 year old man, 'getting your affairs in order' could take 10 or 20 years, maybe more. Now me.... Good point. Seems to me that something as significant as what Nicolas Flamel & Dumbledore accomplished with the Stone could have more written about them - or the implications comes back in another book. I've been thinking about this very thing for a few days now and what keeps popping up in my head are those somewhat subtle observations that Harry makes about Dumbledore seeming older and more tired, book after book. Although Flamel is significantly older, Dumbledore is also old. Do we really know how old a witch or wizard lives to be in JKR's world? Perhaps Dumbledore is ancient too...older than is normal for a wizard but everyone accepts it because they know about the work done with Flamel regarding the Phlospher's stone. Or, the ww assumes because he is a great and powerful wizard, that his life span is just longer. Dumbledore tells Harry that Flamel has enough Elixir to get his affairs in order. Perhaps the same could be said for Dumbledore himself. The stone has been destroyed and now these two wizards are aging at the normal rate and Harry notices the aging taking place on Dumbledore. In that light, I can see Dumbledore dying in a future book. Not through battle or an encounter with Voldemort or a DE - but by the process of dying from old age, too tired to carry on. Grace From sgarfio at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 17:13:20 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:13:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Basilisk Didn't Do It ( James & Lilly's ghost) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021007171320.65656.qmail@web21411.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45058 bugaloo37 wrote: > I believe I read someplace that book 5 is going to take up this issue > of why certain people become ghosts and others do not. > what kind of unhappiness are > we talking about here? Unhappy with current life situation (like > Myrtle) or simply unhappy to be dead? IMO, I think anyone who is > murdered would be unhappy to be dead. This would include Cedric > Diggory and James and Lily Potter. All three of these people were > young and had full lifes to look forward to. The Potters had a son > to raise-IMO, this qualifies as "unfinished business" As bugaloo37 points out above, the Potters and Cedric have plenty of reason to become ghosts, yet we do not see the Potters as ghosts (I, too, think it would be interesting if Cedric shows up in later books as a ghost). I wonder if a Patronus is a form of ghost, or some kind of alternative to becoming a ghost? Perhaps this is how James is taking care of his "unfinished business" of raising Harry? Just a thought. Marina wrote: > That is all very nice if you're travelling between two places that are > actually *connected* to each other by waterworks. Within a castle, > certainly. Within a limited city neighborhood, maybe. But Little > Hangleton is in an entirely different part of the country from > Hogwarts. Do you really suppose there's a vast underground labyrinth > of interconnected water pipes covering all of the UK? I would like to point out that a basilisk is a *magical* creature. People have often raised the point that your typical household plumbing wouldn't be big enough to accommodate the basilisk, and that the plumbing at Hogwarts is probably not connected to that of a far-off town, as evidence that the basilisk (at least the one in CoS) couldn't possibly have killed the Riddles. But as we have seen on many occasions, the laws of physics simply do not apply to the WW - they have their own physical laws. Look at Floo powder - do we really believe that all of the fireplaces in the WW are connected in the ordinary sense, the way the pipes in my house are connected to the pipes in all the houses on my city's water system? They can even connect non-WW fireplaces temporarily, which implies that the "connections" are not ordinary physical connections. For the same reason, I also don't see the size of the pipes as important. The sink that leads to the Chamber of Secrets is normally just a sink with normal-sized pipes, and I really doubt that many of the pipes in the castle are large enough to accommodate the basilisk *under our physical laws*, so it must be able to move through smaller pipes. Granted, these are Hogwarts pipes, which may have magical properties, but I'm more inclined to believe that the pipes are ordinary and the snake is not. Now, I need to finish re-reading the series before I decide whether I believe the Riddles were killed by a basilisk or by AK (I'm currently re-reading CoS), but I don't think anything presented so far rules out the basilisk. Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 17:39:57 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 17:39:57 -0000 Subject: [FILK] Remembrall Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45059 Title of Selection: Remembrall Tune Stolen .. ahem, I mean Borrowed.. uh yeah... from: "Wonderwall" by Oasis The Scene: Neville is alone in his dorm room, curtains pulled around his bed. The time is somewhere around the fifth or sixth year when everyone is gone, and Neville takes some time to just contemplate things alone-- with his remembrall. (Speaking) Neville: "Stupid Ball... can't believe it caused so many problems... but oh well.." (cue music) Neville sings: Today is gonna be the day I'll try to learn a spell or two. By now I shoulda somehow realized the ones I can't do. I don't believe that anybody can sit down and teach a me few ...right now. Buckbeak, the word is on the street That you and Sirius Black got out I was sure, they had killed y'all before But then again I have my doubts. I don't believe that anybody can help me remember like you do ...To me somehow And all the stairs we use to walk are winding And all the spells that Malfoy use are binding There are many Quidditch moves that I would like to be able to do ...But I dont know how. Because maybe You're gonna be the one that saves me And after all You're my Remembrall Today was gonna be the day I was gonna get my potion right. By now I shoulda somehow Reaized it was a tough plight. I don't believe that anybody can help me get over the fright ...Of Professor Snape. And all the stairs we use to walk are winding And all the spells that Malfoy use are binding There are many Quidditch moves that I would like to be able to do ...But I dont know how. I said maybe You're gonna be the one that saves me And after all You're my Remembrall I said maybe You're gonna be the one that saves me And after all You're my Remembrall I said maybe You're gonna be the one that saves me You're gonna be the one that saves me You're gonna be the one that saves me My Remembrall... _________________ --Fyre Wood, who originally posted this filk on her website during a case regarding the future idea of Harry Potter on Broadway- with this as the theme song. Support N.I.N.E!!! From heidit at netbox.com Mon Oct 7 17:52:19 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 13:52:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Basilisk Didn't Do It In-Reply-To: <20021007171320.65656.qmail@web21411.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000601c26e2a$63ffb760$3701010a@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 45060 > -----Original Message----- > From: Sherry Garfio [mailto:sgarfio at yahoo.com] > Granted, these > are Hogwarts pipes, which may have magical properties, but > I'm more inclined to believe that the pipes are ordinary and > the snake is not. Now, I need to finish re-reading the > series before I decide whether I believe the Riddles were > killed by a basilisk or by AK (I'm currently re-reading CoS), > but I don't think anything presented so far rules out the basilisk. > You should also reread Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, which describes the basilisk as follows: <> I do understand the point you're trying to make, and clearly FBaWTFT is not as comprehensive as a full magivetinary study would be, but I do think that the use of the phrase "reach gigantic size" means that the basilisk grows as a regular snake does, and sheds its skin as it does (we saw a basilisk's sheded skin in CoS) - it just grows larger. And accordingly, it can't shrink and expand at will. The other thing I think nobody has pointed out yet is that if Tom did take that basilisk to the Riddle House, there would've been water where the basilisk left the pipes. There was at Hogwarts each time the basilisk came out - and given that it was an overnight that they were undiscovered, I don't think the water could've evaporated away so quickly - although certainly someone who lives in the UK could tell whether my supposition is valid. Now, I want to make it clear that I agree with those who feel that there is no reason to believe that there can be only one basilisk at any given time. It's entirely possible that Tom hatched a baby basilisk and carried it around with him during his orphanage summer. But it seems unlikely, given his assessment of the risk in his talk with Harry at the end of CoS. While I have very little reason to trust him, at that point, he didn't have a reason to really lie. Of course, the flip argument to that would be that the Tom in the Diary was "created" before Real!Tom got the idea to make a new baby basilisk... However, I think there are so many logical reasons why it's not the basilisk FROM the chamber. And there are, as Barb has said, many literary reasons why it's similar in description, but different in, shall we say... execution. Heidi http://www.fictionalley.org Fanfic of all shapes, sizes and SHIPs From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 18:34:02 2002 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 18:34:02 -0000 Subject: Ron and Maroon/Ginny and Crushes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45061 Risti wrote- > Ok...I've been quiet for the last little while observing all these > discussions, and I've decided to weigh in. Both of these > observations come from the fact that while *technically* I am an > adult, I'm really not that far removed from the life and thought > processes of a teenager. Therefore I'm basing my arguements on my > thoughts towards my parents and boys while I was a teenager. > > First of all, as far as clothing and maroon go, I was always just > under the impression that Mrs. Weasley *liked* maroon, and that > possibly this color had some symbolism(although don't ask me what). > Maybe maroon was the coor of Ron's first robes as a baby, and she's > just always liked it on him. Maybe she just thinks red heads look > good in maroon(which at least one one of my friends, is true.) Molly metions(though for the life of me I can't remember where) that most of the clothes she buys Ron are maroon because she thinks they bring out his eyes. Harry's are green for the same reason. And with seven children and a husband to shop for it's very considerate of her to even think about what would look best on them, but like many well intentioned mothers she probably goes overboard with the one color. This also makes me believe that Ron's eyes are brown like Ginny's. Maroon would bring brown eyes out better than green or blue eyes IMHO. -Olivia Grey From hpsmarty at aol.com Mon Oct 7 18:37:33 2002 From: hpsmarty at aol.com (hpsmarty) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 18:37:33 -0000 Subject: HPfGU Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45062 Well, it's October 7 and your procrastinating Contestmeister is finally getting around to figuring out the results of the September contest. I will have the results posted within the next few days, and I will also have a brand new shiny sparkling new contest, so get ready! --Joywitch M. Curmudgeon From ronib at mindspring.com Mon Oct 7 18:13:41 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 18:13:41 -0000 Subject: Animals souls in the HP world Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45063 I did see this in some previous posts (back in June, before I joined), but it was just barely touched, so I thought I would try one more time. I'm really curious about animals' souls in the HP universe. (For clairification, when I say soul in this instance, I am referring both to a kind of consciousness of the world around them and an ability to feel pain and suffer, or even to show human-like emotions.) Some animals seem to have souls in this magical world: * Hedwig has a great deal of personality in her interaction with Harry. She can be loving, angry, proud, or insulted. She shows both affection and anger, just to name a few of the emotions JKR has associated with this owl. * Crookshanks shows great awareness of his(?) surroundings, communicates with Sirius as a dog, and even seems capable of deductive reasoning. Yes, this might be because it is part Kneazle, but regardless, it is showing what I call a soul. * Fawkes, too, seems able to take it his surroundings and react in a very "thoughful" way. (His actions in the Chamber seem far more like consciousness than instinct--especially when "healing" Harry.) * Snakes are capable of verbal communication, specifically the boa who was able to carry on a conversation with Harry. Other animals seem slighly aware, though not as aware as the previous examples. These would be critters as we are used to them in our world- -aware, but not as capable of advanced reasoning like the previous examples: * Buckbeak's ability to be offended, though unable to understand the concept of escaping and hiding. * Pig shows joy and excitement, though he does not seem as "emotional" as Hedwig. In fact, Pig seems like a hyperactive child. Finally, we have a few occassions where animals are retreated rather coldly--as though they have no soul. This is basically concerning animals used in relation to transfiguration: * Cedric turned the rock into a dog for the sake of distracting the dragon during the first task, but was anyone concerned for this dog being offered up as a sacrifice to the dragon? Here are the two things I am specifically wondering: 1. Why do some animals have *more* soul than others? 2. (And this is a little weird I suppose) What happens with animals' souls during transformations? * Animals are created from inanimate objects--do they get a soul in the process? If the previously mentioned dog was not killed by the dragon (we don't know what happened to it), would it have had a soul? * And what about animals that are transformed INTO inanimate objects? What happens to the souls of turtles turned into teapots or hedgehog (was it hedgehogs?) turned into pincushions? It was previously suggested that during transfiguration, an item remains what it previously was -- a table that becomes a pig is still really a table (no soul). That makes sense if you believe the other theory that transfiguration is only temporary, but I'm not sure about that? Didn't Hermione use the buttons she created from beetles? Is there any evidence that a transformation is only a temporary change? If transfiguration is NOT temporary, do created animals have no soul? Do the soul's of transfigured animals remain captive in inanimate objects? Anyway, this is something I have wondered about, and I wondered if anyone else had considered it. Veronica From gandharvika at hotmail.com Mon Oct 7 19:16:12 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 19:16:12 +0000 Subject: [HP4Grownups] Curse Breaker (FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45064 Curse Breaker (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Heartbreaker_ by Pat Benatar_) Listen to it here http://www.foxlink.net/~bobnbren/1980s.html#H (I'm going to set the scene, so please indulge me. If you aren't hooked up to HP4G-OTChatter, and if you haven't followed the thread "Men in Harry Potter", you might not appreciate as much as us who do...or maybe you will...) Tom walked onto the stage feeling rather pleased with himself; this has been the best promotional he had come up with yet. The Leaky Cauldron was filled beyound capacity, young witches and wizards pressing their bodies closer to the stage in anticipation for this evening's entertainment, their voices blending together to form an unintelligible roar. Taking his wand from within the folds of his robes, Tom pointed it at his own throat. "Sonorus," he said, and his voice immediately boomed over the tumult. "Are you ready to ROCK and ROLL?" Obviously the crowd was, as they cheered excitedly in the affirmative. "Then, without further ado, the Leaky Cauldron is proud to present, for their first concert in England...BILLY. AND. THE. CURSE BREAKERS!" The crowd went nuts as Tom exited and the bar went dark. A single spotlight shone onto the center of the stage where suddenly, the band apparated, instruments in hand. The lead singer, the main attraction, the wizard who everybody had come to listen to, stepped forward. Bill Weasley, long, red hair loosely falling into his face, bass guitar in hand, wore nothing more than tight leather pants and his dragon hide boots. He looked out into the crowd, trying to make out faces. Bill had invited his family and he hoped that they were all able to make it. No matter...he would give the crowd what they were waiting for...and then some. The sound of the band's magically amplified instruments rose above the din as Bill began to sing: My occupation's hazardous, difficult as hell Those Egyptian wizards really knew how to cast spells It takes nerves of steel, one wrong move and then I'm dead The prize it is sealed deep within a pyramid I'm a curse breaker Tomb raider, gold taker I don't mess around, you see I'm a curse breaker Tomb raider, gold taker I don't mess around, NO! NO! NO! Those goblins down at Gringott's, baby, they're a sight to behold They'll do anything in their power to get to the gold I'm the right kind of wizard, the greatest curse breaker around Overcoming all hazards, and in the end the treasure's found I'm a curse breaker Tomb raider, gold taker I don't mess around, you see I'm a curse breaker Tomb raider, gold taker I don't mess around, NO! NO! NO! I'm the right kind of wizard, the greatest curse breaker around Overcoming all hazards, and in the end the treasure's found I'm a curse breaker Tomb raider, gold taker I don't mess around, you see I'm a curse breaker Tomb raider, gold taker I don't mess around, you see I'm a curse breaker Tomb raider, gold taker I don't mess around, you see I'm a curse breaker Tomb raider, gold taker Curse breaker! -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From kerelsen at quik.com Mon Oct 7 19:27:56 2002 From: kerelsen at quik.com (Bernadette M. Crumb) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:27:56 -0400 Subject: Application of lessons Message-ID: <008e01c26e37$a65d8a80$cc21b0d8@kerelsen> No: HPFGUIDX 45065 From: GulPlum >Barb P wrote: > >>While the students may not have used Transfiguration to conquer any of the >>large threats experienced during the first four books, Transfiguration WAS >>responsible for one of the most daunting challenges on the way to the >>Philosopher's Stone (McGonagall's enchanted chess board), the Animagus >>Transfiguration was important to the plot of the third book, and >>specifically, McGonagall transfiguring herself into a cat and back to >>human was introduced near the beginning of the first book, > >LOONy point. She doesn't transform herself in front of the class until PoA, >during a lesson on Animagi. (OT: This is a piece of continuity the movie >series is going to have to sort out, because obviously the topic is vital >to the third book/film, and they've already lost their opportunity to >introduce it at the right point.) Er, my daughter currently has a death grip on HPPS so I can't look it up verbatim, but when Harry and Ron were late for Transfiguration class, wasn't McGonagall in cat form on the desk when they came in? And she transformed back into human form in front of the class. It happened within the first couple of weeks of school because Harry and Ron were still getting lost trying to find their way around. She suggested turning them into a watch and a map. That, I believe is the animagus changed that Barb is referring to above, not the change at 4 Privet Drive the night they dropped Harry off with the Dursleys. Interesting thought that the magic that Harry observes eventually becomes important to the overarching plotline... I'll have to think about that some more. Bernadette/RowanRhys (coming out of lurk mode long enough to play hooky from writing a term paper) "Life's greatest happiness is to be convinced we are loved." - Victor Hugo, Les Miserables, 1862 From stevebinch at hotmail.com Mon Oct 7 19:23:07 2002 From: stevebinch at hotmail.com (Steve Binch) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 13:23:07 -0600 Subject: Dumbledor's Dementor Dislike References: <1033764642.5595.57479.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45066 Please forgive me if this has been discussed, but I searched and could not find anything on this topic. I was just listening to GoF, and something caught my attention. The part where Harry is in Dumbledor's pensive and Harry listens to Dumbledor and Madeye talking. When the dementors walk into the room, we are reminded that Dumbledor hates the dementors. We know, and can understand, that no one likes them, but Dumbledor has a particular dislike of them. I wonder if Dumbledor, like Harry, has an especially bad memory that causes him to feel this way about the dementors. If so, I wonder what it will be. Do any of you have any thoughts? Or know of a thread that you can point me to that discusses this? As a side thought, what do we know about Dumbledor's brother, Abaforth? And do you think he will come into the story at all? Steve B From cmhaywood at provide.net Mon Oct 7 19:27:44 2002 From: cmhaywood at provide.net (Cyndy) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:27:44 -0400 Subject: The Marauders' Map and Pettigrew In-Reply-To: <1033992147.2882.1228.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <3DA1A7F0.11375.E7B568@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 45067 > A more interesting question, however, is why it never shows two > Harrys and > Hermiones in the Hogwarts grounds at the end of PoA (don't ask, > just look > at the archives to check out the various theories). :-) I would like to know why Snape didn't realize Peter was on the map, and why he didn't believe the kids when they told him -- or tried to tel him -- Peter was Scabbers. Talk about a plot hole... Cyndy "I miss you, cupcake..." -- GIR From barbarataku at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 19:47:27 2002 From: barbarataku at yahoo.com (Barbara Floyd) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 12:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:[HP4Grownups] Curse Breaker (FILK) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021007194727.56092.qmail@web11502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45068 --- Gail Bohacek wrote: > > Curse Breaker > > (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of > _Heartbreaker_ by Pat Benatar_) > > Listen to it here > http://www.foxlink.net/~bobnbren/1980s.html#H > > > (I'm going to set the scene, so please indulge me. > If you aren't hooked up > to HP4G-OTChatter, and if you haven't followed the > thread "Men in Harry > Potter", you might not appreciate as much as us who > do...or maybe you > will...) > > Tom walked onto the stage feeling rather pleased > with himself; this has been > the best promotional he had come up with yet. The > Leaky Cauldron was filled > beyound capacity, young witches and wizards pressing > their bodies closer to > the stage in anticipation for this evening's > entertainment, their voices > blending together to form an unintelligible roar. > > Taking his wand from within the folds of his robes, > Tom pointed it at his > own throat. "Sonorus," he said, and his voice > immediately boomed over the > tumult. > > "Are you ready to ROCK and ROLL?" > > Obviously the crowd was, as they cheered excitedly > in the affirmative. > > "Then, without further ado, the Leaky Cauldron is > proud to present, for > their first concert in England...BILLY. AND. THE. > CURSE BREAKERS!" > > The crowd went nuts as Tom exited and the bar went > dark. A single > spotlight shone onto the center of the stage where > suddenly, the band > apparated, instruments in hand. > > The lead singer, the main attraction, the wizard who > everybody had come to > listen to, stepped forward. Bill Weasley, long, red > hair loosely falling > into his face, bass guitar in hand, wore nothing > more than tight leather > pants and his dragon hide boots. He looked out into > the crowd, trying to > make out faces. Bill had invited his family and he > hoped that they were all > able to make it. No matter...he would give the > crowd what they were waiting > for...and then some. > > The sound of the band's magically amplified > instruments rose above the din > as Bill began to sing: > > > > My occupation's hazardous, difficult as hell > Those Egyptian wizards really knew how to cast > spells > It takes nerves of steel, one wrong move and then > I'm dead > The prize it is sealed deep within a pyramid > I'm a curse breaker > Tomb raider, gold taker > I don't mess around, you see > I'm a curse breaker > Tomb raider, gold taker > I don't mess around, NO! NO! NO! > > Those goblins down at Gringott's, baby, they're a > sight to behold > They'll do anything in their power to get to the > gold > I'm the right kind of wizard, the greatest curse > breaker around > Overcoming all hazards, and in the end the > treasure's found > > I'm a curse breaker > Tomb raider, gold taker > I don't mess around, you see > I'm a curse breaker > Tomb raider, gold taker > I don't mess around, NO! NO! NO! > > I'm the right kind of wizard, the greatest curse > breaker around > Overcoming all hazards, and in the end the > treasure's found > > I'm a curse breaker > Tomb raider, gold taker > I don't mess around, you see > I'm a curse breaker > Tomb raider, gold taker > I don't mess around, you see > > I'm a curse breaker > Tomb raider, gold taker > I don't mess around, you see > I'm a curse breaker > Tomb raider, gold taker > Curse breaker! > > > -Gail B. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: > http://mobile.msn.com > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 7 19:47:30 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 19:47:30 -0000 Subject: The Marauders' Map and Pettigrew In-Reply-To: <3DA1A7F0.11375.E7B568@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45069 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cyndy" wrote: > I would like to know why Snape didn't realize Peter was on the map, > and why he didn't believe the kids when they told him -- or tried to > tel him -- Peter was Scabbers. > By the time Snape saw the map, Peter was no longer on it -- the map only shows what's going on in Hogwarts, and Peter was in the Shrieking Shack by then. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From heidit at netbox.com Mon Oct 7 20:03:03 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 20:03:03 -0000 Subject: The Marauder's Map & Pettigrew In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021007012755.00970380@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45070 > bootekusic wrote > >Heres the issue, the Marauder's Map is introduced in chapter 10 of > >POA. Wouldn't Harry have seen Peter Pettigrew's name on it? We know > >that Animagi show up on the map because Prof. Lupin said he saw > >Pettigrew's name on it. If he had been checking on it before why > >hadn't he seen Pettigrew's name before that? Is this a valid question > >or am I just confused? GulPlum replied: > By the time he finds out about Peter, Harry's used the Map only a few > times, for the specific purpose of finding out who is immediately around > him and to use the tunnels to get to Hogsmeade. Both times, Ron (and > presumably, Scabbers/Peter) were in Hogsmeade, which isn't covered by the > Map. The one time Harry might have seen Peter's name on the Map would have > been immediately before they all enter the tunnel under the Whomping > Willow, but Harry is too busy observing what's going on to look at the Map. > Furthermore, there's no canon proof that the map shows what is going on inside of Hagrid's hut. Lupin says in the end of PoA that he saw them going towards Hagrid's hut - but he may not've been able to see them behind it (which explains why he didn't see Harry and Hermione on the map when they were lurking at the edge of the forrest, as they were from the time they captured Buckbeak until the time that Lupin, in wolf form, ran towards them) or even when they, with Ron, were in it. If the map doesn't show who is inside Hagrid's hut, then from the time that Scabbers ran away through that June night, there was no way for Harry to see Pettigrew's name on the map. It's entirely reasonable that the map wouldn't show that far from the castle - it doesn't show who's in the Shack either. > > A more interesting question, however, is why it never shows two Harrys and > Hermiones in the Hogwarts grounds at the end of PoA (don't ask, just look > at the archives to check out the various theories). :-) Above is one possible theory. Another is that it did. We don't know that it didn't show two Harrys and two Hermiones - Lupin even says that he thought the map was malfunctioning and that would certainly be a reason why. By the next morning, presumably, Dumbledore has explained what Harry and Hermione did in setting Sirius free, and thus he now knows what happened. We never see the map from Remus' perspective, so of course, we don't know what he really did see. Heidi http://www.fictionalley.org From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Mon Oct 7 20:05:29 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 21:05:29 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledor's Dementor Dislike References: <1033764642.5595.57479.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45071 Steve writes: "We know, and can understand, that no one likes them, but Dumbledor has a particular dislike of them. I wonder if Dumbledor, like Harry, has an especially bad memory that causes him to feel this way about the dementors." Good question, but all I can offer is speculations. four possibilities: 1) Voldemort plans to have the dementors join him. Could Grindonwald have used dementors too when dumbledore fought him? 2) Dumbledore knows where the dementors came from and does not approve on that ground. What if they are real demons? Or were they created by a dark version of Hagrid? 3) Perhaps Dumbledore lost a friend or family member to them at one point. 4) Perhaps he just disaproves of dark creatures near his students. Steve wrote: "As a side thought, what do we know about Dumbledor's brother, Abaforth? And do you think he will come into the story at all?" >From the way dumbledore said it, I think this was just a thowaway comment, not for serious consideration. Or perhaps he got eaten by a dementor. Regards Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Binch To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 8:23 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledor's Dementor Dislike Please forgive me if this has been discussed, but I searched and could not find anything on this topic. I was just listening to GoF, and something caught my attention. The part where Harry is in Dumbledor's pensive and Harry listens to Dumbledor and Madeye talking. When the dementors walk into the room, we are reminded that Dumbledor hates the dementors. We know, and can understand, that no one likes them, but Dumbledor has a particular dislike of them. I wonder if Dumbledor, like Harry, has an especially bad memory that causes him to feel this way about the dementors. If so, I wonder what it will be. Do any of you have any thoughts? Or know of a thread that you can point me to that discusses this? As a side thought, what do we know about Dumbledor's brother, Abaforth? And do you think he will come into the story at all? Steve B Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Oct 7 20:37:35 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 20:37:35 -0000 Subject: Dumbledor's Dementor Dislike In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45072 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Binch" wrote: > When the dementors walk into the room, we are reminded that > Dumbledor hates the dementors. We know, and can understand, that no one likes them, but Dumbledor has a particular dislike of them. I wonder if Dumbledor, like Harry, has an especially bad memory that causes him to feel this way about the dementors. If so, I wonder what it will be. Do any of you have any thoughts? > > Steve B Dumbledore is an interesting figure isn't he? There are so many things we are left to guess about or assume. His problem with the Dementors is just one of them. It could boil down simply to a dislike of any creature that can take away your self control via your soul. Control of your future/choices seems to be a big issue with Dumbledore. He emphasizes this fact with Harry whenever he gets the chance. The possiblity that Dumbledore has some painful memories is not a hard concept to grasp given his age-but IMO, it could have something to do with his defeat of the previous dark lord (prior to Voldemort). With three more books to go, there is a lot of room to fill in the gaps concerning exactly who Dumbledore is- and I for one am ready to find out. bugaloo37 From richasi at azlance.com Mon Oct 7 21:06:12 2002 From: richasi at azlance.com (Richasi) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 17:06:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Marauder's Map & Pettigrew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000801c26e45$5e6a0380$2fd51b18@cfl.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45073 Heidi Wrote: > If the map doesn't show who is inside Hagrid's hut, then from the > time that Scabbers ran away through that June night, there was no > way for Harry to see Pettigrew's name on the map. It's entirely > reasonable that the map wouldn't show that far from the castle - it > doesn't show who's in the Shack either. Perhaps this is one of the reasons Scabbers hid in Hagrid's Hut. Taking your logic and putting it with the knowledge that Pettigrew has of the map, he'd know he could hide there and not be detected by the map (if it were still around). Richasi From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Oct 7 21:10:57 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 21:10:57 -0000 Subject: Flamel /Dumbledore In-Reply-To: <001e01c26e27$1ccc5bd0$9f4053d1@DJF30D11> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45074 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grace Saalsaa" wrote: > > Good point. Seems to me that something as significant as what Nicolas > Flamel & Dumbledore accomplished with the Stone could have more written > about them - or the implications comes back in another book. > IMO, it all boils down to what Voldemort is after-immortality. Here is my basis for this idea: Book 1- chief object: the socerers stone which provides immortality; Book 2-chief object: Tom Riddle's diary which allowed Voldemort some level of immortality; Book 3- less obvious-but Pettigrew's escape to aid Voldemort was achieved; and Book 4-the most obvious reference to immortality: Voldemort's resurrection. I say all this to support your view that the sorceror's stone will be back. But IMO, the implications of the sorceror's stone have been seen in all subsequent books. Here is a sidenote: (if someone wants to take it up) look at Harry's involvement with Voldemort's quest for immortality: 1) even as a baby- Voldemort's inability to kill Harry also results in a huge set back in his quest; 2) Harry prevents Voldemort from getting the Sorceror's stone; 3) Harry destroys Tom Riddle's diary; 4) Harry saves Pettigrew's life-which allows him to return to Voldemort-however, with a life-debt to Harry ( which Dumbledore hints may prove useful to Harry later on); and 4) Harry's blood allows Voldemort to regain his physical body-and who knows what that might do to Voldemort in the long run. IMO, the question is: how will the ultimate destruction of Voldemort be achieved? Will his obsession with immortality and Harry lead to his downfall? bugaloo37-who thinks the using of Harry's blood was very significant. From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 21:11:19 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 14:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New Acronym Message-ID: <20021007211119.84438.qmail@web40301.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45075 Sheryl said: I agree and would also like to point out that it does sound like a previous poem concocted by Fred and George: "Sunshine, daisies, butter mellow, Turn this stupid fat rat yellow." I believe that creative, er... poetry is in Fred and George's line. If I'm not mistaken I believe that have also tutored the suits of armor in colorful versions of Christmas Carol's. The signs clearly point to the twins as the main suspects. Ginny, I believe, was just an innocent bystander. Now me: Thanks for pointing that out...I'd forgotten about that one! It is writen in a similar style. They should stick to Weasley's Wizard Wheezes and quit their day-job as poets. :-) Acire said: Well, I reread part of PoA today, and I found this: "...and Ginny Weasley, blushing furiously, turned up with a get-well card she had made herself, which sang shrilly unless Harry kept it under his bowl of fruit" (PoA pg. 183, US Paperback). Now, I'm taking this to mean that she sent the Valentine card, if she's giving him the get-well card as well. Especially since the get- well card sings, and the Valentine card was a singing one. Of course, one could argue that she figured, "What the hell, I've already been embarassed when people thought I sent him the Valentine, why not go ahead and give him the get-well card?" Me: Yes, we can interpret this card either way as well. But we don't read anything about Ginny blushing when the singing Valentine was "delivered", and she was standing right there. There wasn't even residual blushing when she was looking from Harry to the diary in Malfoy's hand. Granted, she was probably shocked that Harry had the diary now and the thought of him being told things she'd written could have knocked the blush right out her. I think she is blushing with the singing card here because she *likes* Harry and still gets embarrassed around him, but wanted to do something nice for him. But I still think F & G sent the Valentine. Those evil twins! ~Lilac -Acire, who is ever so happy to have her canon again, and promises to never leave it behind again. ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From puddledub at aol.com Mon Oct 7 21:06:56 2002 From: puddledub at aol.com (atticus_finch76) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 21:06:56 -0000 Subject: The Marauder's Map & Pettigrew In-Reply-To: <000801c26e45$5e6a0380$2fd51b18@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45076 OK, what I have to say doesn't really go along with the discussion at hand, but i was wondering if Fred and George never noticed that some guy named Peter Pettigrew was always hanging around with Percy and later on Ron if they had to Map for a few years. Just a nitpicky thing that may have a perfectly obvious, reasonable anwser, but I can't see it. Atticus From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Oct 7 21:42:10 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 21:42:10 -0000 Subject: The Power of Selflessness Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45077 In a previous post, I talked about how Harry had one way or another prevented or at least, hampered, Voldemort's quest for immortality. In that previous post, I pointed out each of the ways Harry did this. Just now, I got to thinking: what is it that drives Harry? what keeps him going? IMO, it is his selflessness. Let me back this up: 1) he is able to get the stone out of the mirror because he did not want it for himself; 2) he seeks out and destroys the diary in order to save someone else (Ginny);and 3) he spares Pettigrew out of his desire to stop his father's friends from committing murder. This concept-the idea of selflessness has been brought home to him via Dumbledore through the sacrifice of his muggle-born mother-Lily Potter-a witch who is considered insignificant by Voldemort because of her heritage. Voldemort simply is incapable of understanding the depth of feeling for the sanctity of life that allows someone to see the greater good beyond himself. Is this another chink in the seemingly invincible armor of Voldemort? IMO, I like to think that Lily Potter's sacrifice has even greater signifigance that Voldemort or even we the reader can suspect at present. bugaloo37 From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 21:35:25 2002 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 21:35:25 -0000 Subject: The Marauder's Map & Pettigrew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45078 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "atticus_finch76" wrote: > OK, what I have to say doesn't really go along with the discussion at > hand, but i was wondering if Fred and George never noticed that some > guy named Peter Pettigrew was always hanging around with Percy and > later on Ron if they had to Map for a few years. Just a nitpicky > thing that may have a perfectly obvious, reasonable anwser, but I > can't see it. > > Atticus I'm guessing that Fred and George didn't really care who Percy was friends with and so they wouldn't really notice who he was with. Same goes with Ron. We know that Ron had never heard the name Peter Pettigrew before he overheard Fudge et al. in the pub (if he had, wouldn't he have said something?), so why would the twins know his name? If they ever noticed the name on the map, wouldn't they just assume it was the name of some student who's not in their year and who they'd never met? -Ing From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Mon Oct 7 22:00:23 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 23:00:23 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Application of lessons In-Reply-To: <008e01c26e37$a65d8a80$cc21b0d8@kerelsen> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021007225347.00964100@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45079 At 15:27 07/10/02 -0400, Bernadette M. Crumb wrote: >Er, my daughter currently has a death grip on HPPS so I can't >look it up verbatim, but when Harry and Ron were late for >Transfiguration class, wasn't McGonagall in cat form on the desk >when they came in? And she transformed back into human form in >front of the class. It happened within the first couple of weeks >of school because Harry and Ron were still getting lost trying to >find their way around. She suggested turning them into a watch >and a map. That entire sequence is from the Movie That Should Not be Named and does not appear in PS/SS the Book. In the Book, during the first lesson McGonagall changes her desk into a pig and back again; in PoA she is dismayed that her Animagus display is considered an anticlimax (the class is perturbed by the Devination lesson they just had, during which Harry's death was predicted). This list uses canon, i.e. the books, as it source for discussions, not apocryphal sources tainted by the imaginings of Messrs Kloves and Columbus. :-) > That, I believe is the animagus changed that Barb is referring to above, not the > change at 4 Privet Drive the night they dropped Harry off with the Dursleys. Err... that scene was never raised as an issue in this thread... From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 22:09:02 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 22:09:02 -0000 Subject: The Marauder's Map & Pettigrew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45080 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "heiditandy" wrote: ...edited... Heidi replied: > Furthermore, there's no canon proof that the map shows what is going > on inside of Hagrid's hut. > ...edited... > If the map doesn't show who is inside Hagrid's hut, then from the > time that Scabbers ran away through that June night, there was no > way for Harry to see Pettigrew's name on the map. > ...edited... > > Heidi bboy_mn adds: I think if we dig deeper, we can find that there are lots of areas that don't show up on the Map. For example, when Fred & George call Harry into a classroom to give him the map, Harry doesn't see himself on the map until he steps out into the hallway. The Map was made for Mischief Makers, so I think it primarily focuses an allowing the user to move around the school without being caught. To do this, they don't need to see the names of hundreds of student in their dorms and in classrooms. They are primarily interested in, are the hallways clear and where are the teachers. So, I'm guessing the Map has a lot of blank information because that information would be of no value to the stealthy movements of mischief makers. For example, do you really need to know who is lurking in the many broom closets? Considering how big Hogwarts is, several wings, seven stories tall, plus several high towers, that's a lot of floor plan to squeeze onto one piece of paper. I speculate that the map is actually selective in what it shows, and only show things that would be of significants to the user at the moment. It's entirely possible that it doesn't show the inside of the dorms. Why would you care about someone's location, if the are safe and cozy in their dorm? Showing the inside of the dorms would be like information overload. It would be such a tight mish-mash of names that you couldn't read any of them. Conclusion, even if it does show the inside of the dorms, you still wouldn't be able to make out Peter/Wormtail's name, and that's why Fred and George never saw him. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From akirabou at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 21:48:03 2002 From: akirabou at yahoo.com (Kara) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 21:48:03 -0000 Subject: Flamel /Dumbledore - Animals souls - App. of Lessons In-Reply-To: <001e01c26e27$1ccc5bd0$9f4053d1@DJF30D11> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45081 bboy_mn comments: >>> Of course, I believe that Nicolas Flamel is alive and well. To a nearly 700 year old man, 'getting your affairs in order' could take > 10 or 20 years, maybe more.<<< I, too, believe that Flamel and the stone will be brought up in future books. JKR seems very good at setting things up, and I think it will come up again. Perhaps Flamel is one of the "old crowd", even? Grace comments: >>> Dumbledore tells Harry that Flamel has enough Elixir to get his affairs in order. Perhaps the same could be said for Dumbledore himself. The stone has been destroyed and now these two wizards are aging at the normal rate and Harry notices the aging taking place on Dumbledore. In that light, I can see Dumbledore dying in a future book. Not through battle or an encounter with Voldemort or a DE - but by the process of dying from old age, too tired to carry on.<<< That's a good point, I had never considered that Dumbledore also took the elixir. I always had a feeling Dumbledore would die by the end of the series. Call it an ominous feeling, mixed with the fact that the elder mentor character always tends to die by the end of a story. So much so, that a friend of mine says they think he -won't- die because it seems too obvious. Anyhow, I never considered that he might die of old age... if there is going to be one final big battle, I wonder if he would before or after? (I would presume after). Does anyone else have any theories on who might not make it to the end of the series, and why? Veronica commented: >>>* Cedric turned the rock into a dog for the sake of distracting the dragon during the first task, but was anyone concerned for this dog being offered up as a sacrifice to the dragon?<<< I don't remember anyone acting concerned, but I don't have my copy of GoF here to check. I think perhaps it doesn't gain a real awareness, beyond just basic functioning, because it's really just a rock. And therefore, no matter how long the rock remained a dog, it isn't a -real- dog. It might act like one, and look like one, but it truly isn't. I know transfiguration can be temporary, considering the ferret incident. Does McGonagall ever say it can be permanent? I'm assuming it could be, if you chose to leave the object transfigured. I would think transfiguring something is just changing the shape.. like a shapeshifter. It isn't replacing it. Then you have the case of "Moody" transfiguring Draco into a ferret. Now.. a ferret is alive just as a human, so it's not quite the same. But was Draco reduced to the simple mind of a ferret while he was one? I've read in other books about characters getting changed into animals by magic, and their state of mind becomes that of the animal. (Luck in the Shadows by Lynn Flewelling, for instance - when Alec gets turned into a stag, his mindset turns into that of a stag... of course this is a completely different series, but makes for a nice comparitive.) It's still them, but their brain changes into that of an animals.. so how much of their awareness is really there? A rock doesn't have brains, a soul... and while you can transfigure something (the dog) to have a brain, I don't think you can make a soul (unless it just comes automatically with the living creature). >>1. Why do some animals have *more* soul than others?<< I think a better word for this might be personality.. or intelligence. Perhaps they're magical animals? Like Hedwig, not a normal owl (because a normal owl wouldn't make a good pet, and couldn't deliver messages the way the wizard's owls do). >>* Animals are created from inanimate objects--do they get a soul in the process?<< But where would the soul come from? Unless it comes automatically, like I mentioned before. GulPlum comments: >>>Er, my daughter currently has a death grip on HPPS so I can't look it up verbatim, but when Harry and Ron were late for Transfiguration class, wasn't McGonagall in cat form on the desk when they came in? And she transformed back into human form in front of the class. It happened within the first couple of weeks of school because Harry and Ron were still getting lost trying to find their way around. She suggested turning them into a watch and a map. That, I believe is the animagus changed that Barb is referring to above, not the change at 4 Privet Drive the night they dropped Harry off with the Dursleys.<<< Don't you hate not having the books to check? ^^ I believe this scene only took place in the movie, I looked up their first class with McGonagall and it's very brief... she gave them a talking to, saying transfiguration was comlex and dangerous, transfigured her desk into a pig and back.. and then they tried transfiguring a match into a needle. (pages 133-134) ~ Kara (who is now very confused about souls... hehe) From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 22:56:09 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Application of lessons / Quirrell plot hole? In-Reply-To: <008e01c26e37$a65d8a80$cc21b0d8@kerelsen> Message-ID: <20021007225609.34107.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45082 From: GulPlum >LOONy point. She doesn't transform herself in front of the >class until PoA, during a lesson on Animagi. (OT: This is a >piece of continuity the movie series is going to have to >sort out, because obviously the topic is vital >to the third book/film, and they've already lost their >opportunity to introduce it at the right point.) "Bernadette M. Crumb" wrote: Er, my daughter currently has a death grip on HPPS so I can't look it up verbatim, but when Harry and Ron were late for Transfiguration class, wasn't McGonagall in cat form on the desk when they came in? And she transformed back into human form in front of the class. It happened within the first couple of weeks of school because Harry and Ron were still getting lost trying to find their way around. She suggested turning them into a watch and a map. That, I believe is the animagus changed that Barb is referring to above, not the change at 4 Privet Drive the night they dropped Harry off with the Dursleys. Me: No, I wasn't referring to that because it was in the film, not the book. I was referring to the READER being introduced, at the beginning of the first book, to the idea of witches and wizards transfiguring themselves into animals. I did not mean to imply that Harry was exposed to this idea in the first book. As GulPlum correctly notes, in the books, it doesn't occur until PoA. (IIRC, there is no mention at all of Animagi in the second book.) Ironically, one of the skills necessary for Harry to get to the Stone was Hermione's logic, which isn't taught at Hogwarts at all (which means that Quirrell was at least as logical as Snape and Hermione, as he also got past it). But then, I suppose debate and rhetoric would be considered superfluous to people who could solve an argument by whipping out their wands... ("solve" being used in a very loose way, here). And, since one of Quirrell's specialties was supposed to be dealing with trolls (and Dumbledore knows this, as Quirrell contributed the troll to help guard the Stone), one has to wonder why Quirrell wasn't immediately suspect for letting the troll in, especially as he didn't do anything in particular to deal with it, as one would expect the resident troll-expert to do. I can't remember whether this possible plot hole has been mentioned before... --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Oct 7 23:18:13 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 23:18:13 -0000 Subject: The Marauder's Map & Pettigrew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45083 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "atticus_finch76" wrote: >> i was wondering if Fred and George never noticed that some > guy named Peter Pettigrew was always hanging around with Percy and later on Ron << I don't think that law-abiding Percy would have bent the rules to bring Scabbers to school (he's not a cat or an owl or a toad.) By the time Harry and Ron came to school, Fred and George had had the Map for two years and wouldn't have needed to use it much, except for quick checks to see if the coast is clear. They may have felt, like Harry, that it would be dangerous to use the Map for a nefarious purpose like spying on people. We know about magical objects that corrupt their owners, but it could work the other way, too. An innocent magical object with a brain might develop an ill will of its own if it was misused. Or maybe the Map doesn't show people who are sleeping, and that's why Scabbers sleeps all the time. Pippin From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Oct 8 00:43:05 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 19:43:05 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's innate abilities/ sweaters and Christmas gifts/ Power of selflessness References: Message-ID: <012301c26e63$ab245d60$82a2cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45084 Marina writes: > To produce a Patronus, he has to go through debilitating practice > session with the boggart, sessions that bring him great emotional > pain and actually cause him to lose consciousness at one point. He > grits his teeth and carries on, even when Lupin is concerned enough > to suggest they should stop. He spends loads of time with Hermione Well, keep in mind there was a tiny bit of Harry holding back during those lessons. Ibn PoA on page 243 (Scholastic edition, paperback) Harry thinks "Terrible though it was to hear his parents' last moments replayed inside his head, these were the only times Harry had ever heard their voices since he was a very small child. But he'd never be able to produce a proper Patronus if he half wanted to hear his parents again." And later on page 246 "Harry felt angry with himself, guilty about his secret desire to hear his parents' voices again." So as long as Harry secrety wished to hear his parents' voices he wasn't able to properly produce the Patronus. However, the very instant his life was in danger, or he thought it was, and he really *needed* to produce it, he did. Also, as long as he was with Lupin during the lessons he was really in no danger. If things got too bad, Lupin would step in. Veronica writes: > So, in order to make all the laundry easier to sort, maybe she uses a > color-coding system. The twins' sweaters are blue (the letters > distinguish Fred's from George's). Ron's are maroon. We don't know > what color Percey's is (at least not in that scene), maybe his is > green. Anyway, my point is that there might be more to it than we > know. While that's possible, it still doesn't explain why Percy would have a P on his sweater and Ron not have an R. I had a teacher friend read the section today, and she immediately came to the same conclusion--it was Ron's sweater George was talking about with no letter. She then became quite upset that he wasn't treated fairly. However, in the same chapter, we have Harry and Ron waking up to find their presents. It specifically says that Ron's pile is much bigger than Harry's. Harry had five presents: The sweater and fudge from Mrs. Weasley, the carved flute from Hagrid, a box of Chocolate frogs from Hermione, 50 pence from the Dursleys (if you can call that a present), and the invisibility cloak. Of Ron's we only know of the sweater and the Bertie Botts Every Flavor Beans from Hermione. But he must've had quite a few more for his stack to be much bigger than Harry's. So who were they from? Miscellaneous aunts and uncles, perhaps? bugaloo37 writes: > In a previous post, I talked about how Harry had one way or another > prevented or at least, hampered, Voldemort's quest for immortality. > In that previous post, I pointed out each of the ways Harry did > this. Just now, I got to thinking: what is it that drives Harry? > what keeps him going? IMO, it is his selflessness. Good point. Also, his innate goodness. For example, in GoF. While he has just jumped up with everyone else and hexed Malfoy and co., a point is made as he leaves that Harry "stepped over* them. As we know, others made it a point to step *on* them. When others are totally defenseless, Harry is not about to take advantage of them. Same thing happened in CoS, in the duel with Malfoy. He felt "it would be unsporting to bewitch Malfoy while he was on the floor." A mistake, of course, but it was a nice thought. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 8 01:19:12 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 01:19:12 -0000 Subject: Harry's innate abilities/ sweaters and Christmas gifts/ Power of selflessness In-Reply-To: <012301c26e63$ab245d60$82a2cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45085 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > However, in the same chapter, we have Harry and Ron waking up to find their > presents. It specifically says that Ron's pile is much bigger than Harry's. > Harry had five presents: The sweater and fudge from Mrs. Weasley, the carved > flute from Hagrid, a box of Chocolate frogs from Hermione, 50 pence from the > Dursleys (if you can call that a present), and the invisibility cloak. Of > Ron's we only know of the sweater and the Bertie Botts Every Flavor Beans > from Hermione. But he must've had quite a few more for his stack to be much > bigger than Harry's. So who were they from? Miscellaneous aunts and > uncles, perhaps? His brothers, probably. Of course, a gift from the twins may not be something to leap with joy about... But Charlie and Bill live in exotic faraway places; I bet they send really neat stuff on birthdays and holidays. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From phoenixbymoonlight at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 7 23:45:38 2002 From: phoenixbymoonlight at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Pandora=20Vetinari?=) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 00:45:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: The Marauder's Map & Pettigrew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021007234538.17008.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45086 > Or maybe the Map doesn't show people who are > sleeping, and > that's why Scabbers sleeps all the time. > > Pippin That would work, as obviously out of everyone with access to the map [bar Lupin], Pettigrew is the only one who knows how it *really* works, seeing as how he took part in it's creation. That also means that if the Map can be tampered with in any way, Peter almost certainly would know how. It would be easy enough to transform back into a wizard while Ron and all the other boys are asleep, quickly mess around with the map, then turn back into Scabbers and sleep peacefully, knowing his secret is safe. Of course, this doesn't account for Fred and George not noticing, but then again, they could have seen the name 'Peter Pettigrew' and thought nothing of it. After all, do we know that any of the current students knew who Peter was, before POA? ===== Pandora MSN: syntheticstar at hotmail.com http://www.black-waltz.net http://www.livejournal.com/~gizmochan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com From kellybroughton at yahoo.com Tue Oct 8 01:26:17 2002 From: kellybroughton at yahoo.com (kelly broughton) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 18:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledor's Dementor Dislike In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021008012617.70683.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45087 --- Steve Binch wrote: When the dementors walk into the room, we are reminded > that > Dumbledor hates the dementors. We know, and can understand, that no one > likes them, but Dumbledor has a particular dislike of them. I wonder if > Dumbledor, like Harry, has an especially bad memory that causes him to > feel > this way about the dementors. Very good question! I always understood his unnacceptance of the dementors to be simply bc they offended his noble principles. The things that they do, what they stand for, etc. Maybe he knows how they originated, and/or has more knowledge of what they are capable of. It never occurred to me that he, too, might actually have had some personal experiences with them. -kel __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Oct 8 01:52:44 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 20:52:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: sweaters and Christmas gifts/Marauder's Map References: Message-ID: <016f01c26e6d$681e44e0$82a2cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45088 I (Richelle) wrote: > > from Hermione. But he must've had quite a few more for his stack > to be much bigger than Harry's. So who were they from? Miscellaneous aunts > and uncles, perhaps? And Marina responded: > His brothers, probably. Of course, a gift from the twins may not be > something to leap with joy about... But Charlie and Bill live in > exotic faraway places; I bet they send really neat stuff on > birthdays and holidays. You know, I forgot about them! How could I?! I wish JKR would write in some of Ron's gifts in one of the future books, that could get interesting! Pandora wrote: > Of course, this doesn't account for Fred and George > not noticing, but then again, they could have seen the > name 'Peter Pettigrew' and thought nothing of it. > After all, do we know that any of the current students > knew who Peter was, before POA? I never really thought that any of the students knew anything about Peter Pettigrew. No one (student) seemed to know about Sirius Black until he escaped from Azkaban. And Lupin wasn't remembered by anyone, no one seemed to have a previous recollection of hearing his name before. So why should Peter be known by students? Also, I've always thought that the writing on the map must be very small. One would have to be looking for it to see it, so the twins would probably have ignored everything except what they were interested in. Richelle From nplyon at yahoo.com Tue Oct 8 02:01:29 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 19:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gred and Forge Are At It Again (was New Acronym) In-Reply-To: <1033992147.2882.1228.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021008020129.22535.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45089 Lilac said: > On page 240, Harry escapes the common room that > night partly because Fred and George keep singing > "His eyes are as green as a fresh pickled toad" over > and over again. They weren't there to hear the > valentine in the hallway, but they know it enough to > sing it over and over again. Granted, someone could > have shared the info with them, but I think this is > their way of reveling in their joke, especially > since they weren't there to see the actual delivery. > > > Okay, so now Harry thinks, because of what Malfoy > said and his knowledge of Ginny's crush, that Ginny > sent that awful valentine. So, Ginny's chances of > having a future date with Harry is now slim at best. > So, I submit to you... > > FAT CHANCE AT BALL > > Fred and Twin Concoct Harrys Abhorrent Note, > Causing Everyones Attention Towards Blusher As > Loving Longingly. > > I am now waving my FAT CHANCE AT BALL flag enthusiastically. When I first read this scene, I laughed heartily but I didn't think too much about it. However, when Lilac proposed this theory to me, it really got me thinking and I've concluded, as she has, that Gred and Forge were likely behind this prank. There are many reasons from this. For one, we know from canon that Ginny is not the boldest of creatures around Harry, especially at this point in time. That summer is the first time Harry stays at the Weasley house and Ginny spends most of it blushing deeply every time she sees Harry, not to mention the elbow in the butter. I do not think she would be so bold as to send him a Valentine. Secondly, I remember what it was like to be a love-sick 11 year-old experiencing one of her first crushes and I know that I would never have written a poem likening my crush's eyes to "fresh pickled toads." Instead, I would have written something like, "His eyes are as green as emeralds" or something like that. The whole poem seems suspiciously un-Ginnylike to me. Thirdly, as Lilac has pointed out, Gred and Forge are very familiar with the poem, even though they were not there to witness it first-hand. We know that Gred and Forge are quite the practical jokesters, as evidenced in the book when they walk down the halls clearing the way and declaring that a "seriously evil" wizard is coming through. What's more, the silly wording of the poem just sounds to me like something a boy would write, especially a boy of Gred and Forge's age. Lastly, again as Lilac has pointed out, Malfoy is the one who suggests that Ginny sent the Valentine. We already know how trustworthy and honest our good little Draco is. We know he's vicious towards the Weasleys and that he's extremely antagonistic towards them. Why not kill two birds with one stone and suggest that Ginny's the one who sent the Valentine? How could Draco possibly know that Ginny sent it anyway? It's Ginny's first year and she's younger than Draco so I sincerely doubt he's on friendly enough terms with her for her to confide in him that she was going to send Harry a singing Valentine. No, I think our boy Malfoy was just being mean to both Harry and Ginny and accomplishing it with one fell swoop. ~Nicole, who admits that Gred and Forge's charms will only increase for her it was indeed them who sent the Valentine to Harry. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 8 02:55:35 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 02:55:35 -0000 Subject: Harry's innate abilities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45090 Michelle wrote: >>>>I'm sure that you can inherit sports abilities, now I'm not that much of a sports fan (I'll get back to that) so lets take singers many offspring of singers have followed in their Dad's/Mum footsteps - both of John Lennons son's have released their on albums and most recently Ozzy Osborne's daughter has released her first single - so if singing can be inherited why not sport abilities? <<< Melody: I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to stop you there. I completely disagree. Talent is not inherited; opportunity is. Lennon's son and Ozzie Osbourne's daughter are in "the know" that is all. Being able to carry a tune is not talent. Both my parents are incredible talented musically (hence my name: oh, my full name is Melody Timpani so I get lots of interesting comments). Both my brother and I also played instruments mostly because it was the way we were raised. Growing up I thought everyone had a piano, and their fathers played them to sleep. We were encouraged and taught by our parents classical and modern composers, phrasing, chords...and the politics of the music industry. What opportunities my brother and I have to pursue a career in music is more from that knowledge than just pure talent. Most "talent" is from pure practice and drills anyway. Talent is found in those that do not tire of thier "gift" and are encouraged to flesh it out. That is why I got out. As much as I loved percussion, I don't like playing the same piece over and over again. My brother, bless him, does love playing trumpet greatly and is using all the resources available to him to work in the music industry (which in my household means the orchestra). He has the advantage over those not raised in the music field because my parents' friends can help push him in the right directions. Ok, my point, and tie in back to Harry Potter before the moderators get all hoppity, talent is not inherited musically nor in the sports arena. Often the offspring of famous individuals are just in a better situation to "inherit" thier father's appointed glories. The industries love money, and the children want to be great...like thier dad (or mom). One case that I can think of that inherited abilities might matter in sports in in physical abilities. Harry did "inherit" his physical body from his parents. Bone structure, physical agility, and metabolism all aid in sports and are completely by chance. Sports, no matter how long you practice, often comes down to the basic: he is bigger and stronger than me. So then, sport talents can be perceived as being inherited. Though in Harry Potter's case, I think his talent on the quidditch field is far different from his father's. Oh and one last thing, Of the two examples you gave before, I must say that it is the popular music industry and nostalgia that gave those two kids a record deal. The fans of Kelly Osbourne's and Sean Lennon's respective fathers, especially with Lennon, want to believe that Ozzie and John can live forever. Melody From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 8 02:57:03 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 02:57:03 -0000 Subject: Harry's innate abilities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45091 Michelle wrote: >>>>I'm sure that you can inherit sports abilities, now I'm not that much of a sports fan (I'll get back to that) so lets take singers many offspring of singers have followed in their Dad's/Mum footsteps - both of John Lennons son's have released their on albums and most recently Ozzy Osborne's daughter has released her first single - so if singing can be inherited why not sport abilities? <<< Melody: I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to stop you there. I completely disagree. Talent is not inherited; opportunity is. Lennon's son and Ozzie Osbourne's daughter are in "the know" that is all. Being able to carry a tune is not talent. Both my parents are incredible talented musically (hence my name: oh, my full name is Melody Timpani so I get lots of interesting comments). Both my brother and I also played instruments mostly because it was the way we were raised. Growing up I thought everyone had a piano, and their fathers played them to sleep. We were encouraged and taught by our parents classical and modern composers, phrasing, chords...and the politics of the music industry. What opportunities my brother and I have to pursue a career in music is more from that knowledge than just pure talent. Most "talent" is from pure practice and drills anyway. Talent is found in those that do not tire of thier "gift" and are encouraged to flesh it out. That is why I got out. As much as I loved percussion, I don't like playing the same piece over and over again. My brother, bless him, does love playing trumpet greatly and is using all the resources available to him to work in the music industry (which in my household means the orchestra). He has the advantage over those not raised in the music field because my parents' friends can help push him in the right directions. Ok, my point, and tie in back to Harry Potter before the moderators get all hoppity, talent is not inherited musically nor in the sports arena. Often the offspring of famous individuals are just in a better situation to "inherit" thier father's appointed glories. The industries love money, and the children want to be great...like thier dad (or mom). One case that I can think of that inherited abilities might matter in sports in in physical abilities. Harry did "inherit" his physical body from his parents. Bone structure, physical agility, and metabolism all aid in sports and are completely by chance. Sports, no matter how long you practice, often comes down to the basic: he is bigger and stronger than me. So then, sport talents can be perceived as being inherited. Though in Harry Potter's case, I think his talent on the quidditch field is far different from his father's. Oh and one last thing, Of the two examples you gave before, I must say that it is the popular music industry and nostalgia that gave those two kids a record deal. The fans of Kelly Osbourne's and Sean Lennon's respective fathers, especially with Lennon, want to believe that Ozzie and John can live forever. Melody From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 8 03:52:32 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 03:52:32 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's watch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45092 Catlady wrote: > Canon of Dumbledore's watch (from chapter one, book one): "It was a > very odd watch. It had twelve hands but no numbers; instead, little > planets were moving around the edge." I think it was an astrological > or astronomical depiction of the skies at the present moment, from > which any devout amateur astronomer could tell the time. So I write: Ok, I had to wait to get home to my books---Home is where the HP Books are, right?---to look up the references to wizard clocks. First reference is Dumbledore's watch PS/SS Ch 1: twelve hands, no numbers, little planets running around the edge We are given no knowledge about what the watch says, but we do know after Dumbledore peers at the watch, he announces that Hagrid is late. Second reference is the clock *on the wall* in the Weasley's kitchen CoS Ch 3: only one hand, no numbers, written words around the edge This clock seems to assist Molly in her chores like a day planner. It only gives constructive, household instruction and only has one hand which I presume to be representing Molly. Third reference is the *grandfather* clock in the Weasley's house GoF Ch 10: nine golden hands engraved with each family member's name, no numbers, written around the face are "descriptions of where each family member might be" Each hand of the clock represents a family member and reveals to the viewer what the current state of the family. This clock and the kitchen clock are both in English and can be understood by every member of the Weasley family. So from these examples, I assumed that Dumbledore's watch had the same purpose and characteristics. Since his watch has planets running around the edges instead of English phrases, it does need a bit of creative thinking to explain. I suggest that since Dumbledore is so educated and wise in the magical arts and is fluent in many languages, he can read the plants as if it was just a foreign language. I am not saying his watch is a fortune-telling/ seeing sort of a pocketwatch, but more of a pocket translated version of a different language. Only Dumbledore can read his watch and know what it is implying, because he knows what the intent of the watch is in the first place. Since Dumbledore looks at the watch and determined that Hagrid was late, I lay on the table that one of the twelve hands on Dumbledore's watch was assigned to either Hagrid of Harry that night. From the little planets orbiting his watch, Dumbledore knew what the present state of affairs were. Melody Who is greatly sorry about double posting her last post. Slippery fingers and tired eyes. From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Tue Oct 8 06:32:02 2002 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 06:32:02 -0000 Subject: The Marauder's Map & Pettigrew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45093 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "atticus_finch76" > wrote: > >> i was wondering if Fred and George never noticed that some > > guy named Peter Pettigrew was always hanging around with > Percy and later on Ron << > > I don't think that law-abiding Percy would have bent the rules to > bring Scabbers to school (he's not a cat or an owl or a toad.) > > By the time Harry and Ron came to school, Fred and George > had had the Map for two years and wouldn't have needed to use > it much, except for quick checks to see if the coast is clear. They > may have felt, like Harry, that it would be dangerous to use the > Map for a nefarious purpose like spying on people. We know > about magical objects that corrupt their owners, but it could work > the other way, too. An innocent magical object with a brain might > develop an ill will of its own if it was misused. > > Or maybe the Map doesn't show people who are sleeping, and > that's why Scabbers sleeps all the time. > Or perhaps the map only shows Maurauders to other Maurauders. Lupin is the only one who saw Sirius or Peter on the map, after all. It could have been a safeguard, in case the wrong people got ahold of it while it was active... --Arcum From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Tue Oct 8 03:21:08 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 03:21:08 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew, the Twins, and the Map(new thought) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45094 All this talk about Pettigrew and the map has got me thinking. I've always wondered just how the twins figured out how to use the map. I mean, the words "I solemnly swear I am up to no good" couldn't have just come out of their mouth by chance, could they have? (although I've seen some very good FF's where they have). What if Scabbers/Pettigrew showed them how discreetly? Maybe there's a code word that brings up a page of 'instructions', and late one night while everyone in the dorm room was asleep, he transfigured himself, muttered the words, then quietly transfigured himself again. Maybe he even set an old charm in place that allows only fellow marauders to see each other on the map, figuring that was a very unlikely event, and knowing he needed to hide his identity from the twins. Or maybe my mind is just working over overtime. ~Risti From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 8 08:45:40 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 08:45:40 -0000 Subject: Harry's innate abilities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45095 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > Michelle wrote: > > >>>>I'm sure that you can inherit sports abilities, now I'm not that > much of a sports fan (I'll get back to that) so lets take singers many > offspring of singers have followed in their Dad's/Mum footsteps - > both of John Lennons son's have released their on albums and most > recently Ozzy Osborne's daughter has released her first single - so > if singing can be inherited why not sport abilities? <<< > > > Melody: > I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to stop you there. I completely > disagree. Talent is not inherited; opportunity is. Lennon's son and > Ozzie Osbourne's daughter are in "the know" that is all. Being able > to carry a tune is not talent. Me: Lennons sons by all actounts can do more than carry a tune. As for Ozzy's daughter I'm not a fan it's just that shes the most recent. While I admit that being on the inside as it were is an advantage it is not the be all and end all. You still need to be able to sing to sell the records. > Most "talent" is from pure practice and drills > anyway. Me: I disagree I could practise until the cows come home and I would never be able to carry a musical note that would actually be in tune. > Ok, my point, and tie in back to Harry Potter before the moderators > get all hoppity, talent is not inherited musically nor in the sports > arena. Often the offspring of famous individuals are just in a better > situation to "inherit" thier father's appointed glories. The > industries love money, and the children want to be great...like thier > dad (or mom). Me: The music wouldn't sell unless they can sing poeple would soon get bored of them. > One case that I can think of that inherited abilities might matter in > sports in in physical abilities. Harry did "inherit" his physical > body from his parents. Bone structure, physical agility, and > metabolism all aid in sports and are completely by chance. Sports, no > matter how long you practice, often comes down to the basic: he is > bigger and stronger than me. So then, sport talents can be perceived > as being inherited. Though in Harry Potter's case, I think his talent > on the quidditch field is far different from his father's. Me: Firstly: singing is all to do with the vocal chords which is a physical attribute. Secondly: As I stated in my previous post we don't know for certain what James talents on the Quiditch pitch were like. > Oh and one last thing, > Of the two examples you gave before, I must say that it is the popular > music industry and nostalgia that gave those two kids a record deal. > The fans of Kelly Osbourne's and Sean Lennon's respective fathers, > especially with Lennon, want to believe that Ozzie and John can live > forever. Me: What about Julian Lennon he released records to. I only talk about music industry because I DONT WHATCH SPORT - I could have emailed all my football fanatic friends who also enjoy watching cricket (like for these 2 sports seems to go hand in hand) and got a list but that would have taken too long. I listen to quite a wide range of music and know of many children that have followed in their parents footsteps and also many groups that are made up of or contain siblings (Jackson 5, Oasis, etc. I afraid that genetics do come into it. I agree it is then the individuals choice (although there are some psychological arguements as to why we don't have free will, (I not going to go into them! I don't believe in them myself) we live our lives as if we do have free will so thats all that matters) as to whether they use their talent - but first the talent has to be there in the first place and the basis of most talent is in some aspect at least physical. Michelle From potter76 at libero.it Tue Oct 8 09:44:56 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 11:44:56 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Harry'sStrongPoints/ Magical protection and Lily's touch References: <009d01c26d64$c6d80c00$c5a2cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <3DA2A918.000001.43507@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 45096 Kara wrote: >> My opinion on the gleam in his eye was because Harry had been touched >> by Voldemort, and survived. He had survived without his mother's > >protection [ cut]. Because Harry has proven to be able to go up against Voldemort, without the > >protection, without help, and lived. And that's certainly something to > >be triumphant about. But, I know this one has been debated > >endlessly... so this has probably already been brought up. Richelle answered: >1) This is the one I hate most of all, and really don't believe, but I'll >get it out of the way. If Dumbledore is really a bad guy in a very good >disguise, the triumphant gleam would mean, aha, Voldemort will triumph. >Pathetic, that one, if you ask me, since Harry just got away again! >However, I thought I'd throw it in and disregard it before someone else >brings it up. :) On this point I (Rita) have to say that it seems to me just the thing JKR would have us think to throw us off track and to create a bit of confusion (as if there was not enough! trying to figure out who everyone really is is driving me crazy! I can't go much longer without reading OoP). So I would discard this possibility. But there is anyone out there that really believes in it being more than a chance? >2) The fact that Dumbledore stands up so *quickly* as to startle Harry when >he's just about to be referred to as old and tired, is interesting. Then >walks around the desk and asks to see Harry's arm. Which implies that the >location of the taking of blood is important. The only connection I can >find is that this is Harry's right arm, cut in the crook of the arm, or >elbow. It was Harry's right arm, at the elbow, broken by the Bludger (and >deboned by Lockhart) in CoS. [cut] I agree that there is some significance to the wound and how the blood was taken from Harry but I don't think it could have anything to do with the deboning' accident. IMO it's more likely that Dumbl wants to see the wound because it can help figuring out what kind of 'rite' Vold was performing and what kind of strength he got from Harry; although I can't imagine what the symbolic' meaning of the right arm could be. It's the left arm that has a strong symbolic meaning because it's the 'heart's arm' ( here in Italy you wear your wedding ring on the left hand because of that reason). >3) Now, back to the point Kara was making, that Dumbledore's triumphant >gleam occurs at the exact time that Harry has just explained that Voldemort >was able to and did touch him. Yet Harry is safe and sound in Dumbledore's >office. He lived. Again. So there may be perhaps another protection over >him besides the one his mother left. Which brings up the theory of some >sort of experimental work James and Lily (and Harry) may have been involved >in. Something to do with the Sorcerer's Stone and the Elixir of Life. [ excuse me if I cut the explanation to your theory] This makes a bit LOTR ( and actually I got the idea thinking about the similarities/ differences between Frodo and Harry) but here's my theory about the other form of protection over Harry. It's not an old protection cast over him but something he acquired the moment Vold used his blood in the rite to 'revive' himself. Just as Harry has been touched by Evil and is in some ways 'tainted' by it so now Vold is 'tainted' by Good and this drop of goodness that it's now in himself will (possibly) bring about his final downfall. This could happen in many ways, I'm not thinking about a very commonplace 'redemption of the villain' but to something like a powerful curse aimed at killing Harry or ' destroying the world' that doesn't work or rebounds because not 100% of him is bent on it. Well, maybe this theory is as common place as the redemption one , but I can't help liking it. R. From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 8 11:13:17 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 11:13:17 -0000 Subject: The Marauder's Map & Pettigrew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45097 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "arcum42" wrote: > Or perhaps the map only shows Maurauders to other Maurauders. Lupin is the only one who saw Sirius or Peter on the map, after all. It could have been a safeguard, in case the wrong people got ahold of it while it was active... > > --Arcum I'm afraid that won't work -- Snape saw Lupin on the map (PoA, US paperback, pg 358). That's how he knew to go to the Shrieking Shack. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 8 12:20:38 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 12:20:38 -0000 Subject: Harry's innate abilities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45098 Michelle originally wrote: >>>>I'm sure that you can inherit sports abilities, now I'm not that much of a sports fan (I'll get back to that) so lets take singers many offspring of singers have followed in their Dad's/Mum footsteps - both of John Lennons son's have released their on albums and most recently Ozzy Osborne's daughter has released her first single - so if singing can be inherited why not sport abilities? <<< So I tried to argue: >>>>I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to stop you there. I completely disagree. Talent is not inherited; opportunity is. Lennon's son and Ozzie Osbourne's daughter are in "the know" that is all. Being able to carry a tune is not talent.<<<< Michelle then rebutted: >>>>Lennons sons by all accounts can do more than carry a tune. As for Ozzy's daughter I'm not a fan it's just that shes the most recent. While I admit that being on the inside as it were is an advantage it is not the be all and end all. You still need to be able to sing to sell the records.<<< Me again: I think we are splitting hairs on whether or not these two kids have talent. I believe they made and sold records based more on their father's fame than their own. That is just my pure opinion and should not be used by me to say that they *definitely* do not have talent. I'm sorry. Talent, to me, is something more extraordinary than just skill. We inherit similar skills as our parents because we inherit their physical characteristics. Like Hagrid's large body. He completely inherited his size and girth which is very helpful in his gameskeeper skills of dragging Christmas trees around the place. It is skill that he can wrestle trolls. It is just his large size. Frankly, our parents raise us up exercising our bodies in the ways they learned which produced thier skills. Skills can be honed. Talent cannot. Talent is more ethereal. It just comes and goes as it pleases into lives. One cannot explain why Beethoven was so talented in composing. No one in his family had ever written music, and no one has since. It was a sort of "genetic" anomaly that touched down and left in the same generation. Michelle then wrote: >>> I disagree I could practice until the cows come home and I would never be able to carry a musical note that would actually be in tune.<<< Me: I agree. I could practice for hours and never be flexible enough to be a gymnast (though God knows I've tried). I forget not everyone can carry a tune. It is so ingrained in me to sing. It is just, even though I can carry a tune, I do not have talent in the field. I can sing for hours and never sound like Kelly Clarkson or Celine Dion. The ability to carry a tune is not an extraordinary feat. Which is where, I guess, public opinion enters. Part of talent is whether or not we agree it is talent. So now to bring it all back to Harry Potter Reality where we all live...it is told that Harry has talent for quidditch. It is something that came easy for him and distinguishes him from other students, players, and seekers. Most sports are based solely on physical attributes. Harry is small and sleek which aids in his abilities. He has searching eyes which actually are not that "good" since he does have to wear glasses. I guess Harry's talent is that he is fast. He cannot help it and it is just a gut reaction. Sigh, I hope this better explains why I disagreed with you. My head is swimming with ideas that I hope I explained correctly. Melody Who is on cloud nine today. Her first love, and only competition with Harry Potter for her attention, Beauty and the Beast came out on DVD today with extra footage. :) "Heaven. I'm in Heaven..." From betsyfallon at hotmail.com Tue Oct 8 14:46:55 2002 From: betsyfallon at hotmail.com (betsy fallon) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 14:46:55 -0000 Subject: The Marauder's Map & Pettigrew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45099 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marinafrants" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "arcum42" wrote: > > Or perhaps the map only shows Maurauders to other Maurauders. > Lupin is the only one who saw Sirius or Peter on the map, after all. > It could have been a safeguard, in case the wrong people got ahold > of it while it was active... > > > > --Arcum > > I'm afraid that won't work -- Snape saw Lupin on the map (PoA, US > paperback, pg 358). That's how he knew to go to the Shrieking Shack. > > Marina > rusalka at i... Sorry, I don't have my books with me, but in GOF, wasn't Barty Crouch, Jr/Fake Moody also seen on the map while he was in Snape's office. It was commented that Mr. Crouch was seen in Snape's office and it was thought that it was Crouch, Sr. who was in the office. Betsy From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Tue Oct 8 15:02:22 2002 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 08:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lily's Last Labor of Love [Ghosts (James & Lily's) + AK] Message-ID: <20021008150222.4898.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45100 ---"arcum42" wrote: > My personal theory is that Avada Kedavra > causes the persons soul to > evade their body and be sucked into the > casters wand, leaving no > ghost behind at all. If this is the case, that > would give him an even > better reason to go after Voldemort. Heidi replied (#44993) with a recap of past discussions regarding the AK, the logic of which flows thus: The AK is the only act of homicide that's Unforgivable. Therefore we can consider the AK to be more than just the killing of one person by another. This begs the question: how is the AK so special that the WW finds it more unforgivable than other methods of murder? IF: Presence of ghosts in canon indicate the existence of life after death... IF: Being AK'd keeps a soul from achieving ghosthood... THEN: Death by AK prevents the victims from embarking on their Next Great Adventure. I agree that this (if I understood Heidi correctly) is very likely a big part of the nature of AK. Nevertheless, I am interested in learning of other theories about the AK...can anyone point me to threads or posts? Or is the above the only theory worth noting? Though it makes a lot of sense, this theory does not address the issue of how Lily managed to thwart Voldemort's attempt to murder Harry...and my interest in the AK stems from my interest in just how Lily's sacrifice saved her son. Since I view the oft-mentioned "mother's love" as more the motivation than the mechanism, I am still puzzling over the means by which Harry became the Boy Who Lived...surely Lily is not the only person to love someone facing the wrong end of Voldemort's wand as much as she did. So, what are the currently prevailing thoughts on this matter? On hiatus from Lurkdom (do intros expire?), Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Oct 8 15:33:22 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 15:33:22 -0000 Subject: Lily's Last Labor of Love [Ghosts (James & Lily's) + AK] In-Reply-To: <20021008150222.4898.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45101 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Petra Pan wrote: > > Since I view the oft-mentioned "mother's love" as > more the motivation than the mechanism, I am > still puzzling over the means by which Harry > became the Boy Who Lived...surely Lily is not the > only person to love someone facing the wrong end > of Voldemort's wand as much as she did. > This issue has been discussed but I cannot recall if I put my two cents in or not-so here it goes. Voldemort refers to "Lily's love" as "ancient magic." There has been a lot of discussion as to what ancient magic entails. IMO, "mother's love" has been around ever since there have been mothers and children; therefore, it would certainly qualify as ancient. I personally believe there is no "spell" to cast in regards to this particular magic. It originates in the heart of the mother. In the muggle world, this particular magic could be demonstrated in many ways-running into a burning building, jumping in a river-even lifting a car. But Lily is not just a muggle-she is a muggle-born witch. Her particular magic was demonstrated in a more tactile fashion-it was literally placed into Harry's skin. IMO, this was not done through some charm or spell-but simply through thought-Lily's thoughts/love had magical powers. Even before Harry knew he was a wizard, his thoughts had power-removing the window at the zoo, for example. I believe all wizards and witches have this ability. Part of the education of Hogwarts is to show their students how to control these thoughts. Look at the power of Harry's anger in regards to Aunt Marge-his thoughts packed a powerful punch. Couldn't it be assumed that love every bit as powerful as anger could carry just as much strength? I do agree that others have availed themselves of this ancient magic-we just do not know about it. A sidenote: Voldemort believes he has by- passed Lily's love by taking Harry's blood. He can now touch Harry. IMO, however, I believe that Lily's love via Harry's blood has not played its final card. I believe Voldemort will rue the day he performed that particular rite. bugaloo37 From ronib at mindspring.com Tue Oct 8 15:26:36 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 15:26:36 -0000 Subject: Lily's Last Labor of Love [Ghosts (James & Lily's) + AK] In-Reply-To: <20021008150222.4898.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45102 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Petra Pan wrote: > Since I view the oft-mentioned "mother's love" as > more the motivation than the mechanism, I am > still puzzling over the means by which Harry > became the Boy Who Lived...surely Lily is not the > only person to love someone facing the wrong end > of Voldemort's wand as much as she did. Random thoughts (too tired to do them justice, but maybe someone else can refine them more): Perhaps there is more to performing AK than merely saying the words. Maybe you have to focus on the person you are trying to kill. Like in sports, you might visualize yourself making a jump shot. Well, in this case, you *see* (in your mind) your victim dying. Following this theory, perhaps LV was trying to kill Harry, not Lily, but she made the ultimate scarifice and, literally, got in the way. While the curse was not meant specifically for her, it was still powerful enough to kill her. Only, because of her sacrifice (as she took the bullet for Harry), it left Harry 'protected' from that curse. Not in anyway canonical, but just an idea I thought I would throw out there. Perhaps I'm in need of sleep more than I realized. Veronica From abigailnus at yahoo.com Tue Oct 8 15:41:04 2002 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 15:41:04 -0000 Subject: Harry's innate abilities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45103 Grey Wolf, Michelle and Melody have been discussing the origin of Harry's Quidditch skills. Michelle offered this and entered into a discussion with Melody on hereditary talent: > I'm sure that you can inherit sports abilities, now I'm not that much > of a sports fan (I'll get back to that) so lets take singers many > offspring of singers have followed in their Dad's/Mum footsteps - > both of John Lennons son's have released their on albums and most > recently Ozzy Osborne's daughter has released her first single - so > if singing can be inherited why not sport abilities? The only > example I can think off in sport is Damien Hill - I believe he > followed in his Dad's footsteps - Yes I know that this was formula 1 > but I bet that many of you sports lovers can provide better examples. > I'm sure my fellow Brits will be able to quote several footballers > that have followed in their parents footsteps and maybe even a few > cricketers, I'm sure that you Americans can name several American > Footballers, basketballers (sooo much better than Netball :-)) and > base ballers that have also followed in their parents footsteps, and > I'm sure that some of you will be able to mention a few golfers, > athletes, swimmers etc. But all I can quote is the above Damien Hill. > And I'm sure that not all children that followed their parents into a > sport actually play in the same position that their parents did. All of these examples have to do with professional atheletes or musicians and their children - have we ever seen any evidence that Harry's skill at Quidditch extends beyond that of a high school hero? Certainly Harry's brushes with the world of professional Quidditch have not led us to believe that he, or anyone around him, is in that league. Harry's reaction to the Irish Chasers and to Krum during the QWC is that this is Quidditch on a level that he was never aware of before, and while Krum compliments Harry on his flying skills later in GoF, one gets the feeling that this was the case of a professional complimenting a talented amateur, not an equal. The basic skill set for a Seeker seems to be a slight build, good hand-eye coordination, good reflexes - and of course superb flying ability. That last one, I would suggest, is what Harry inherited from his father. The rest may very well be a happy accident of genetics. I do have a problem with the idea of Harry the flying savant who can just get on his broom and outfly Malfoy, who has presumably been flying for years, but is it possible that the drama of the description has blinded us to the fact that Harry's accomplishment wasn't that great? How hard is it, after all, to catch a falling object while riding a maneuverable, accelerating flying object? It's just a question of mathematics. I really doubt that catching Neville's Rememberall is in any way comprable to capturing a Snitch, which can move in any direction, in the middle of a pitch that has 13 other players whizzing back and forth on it, including one of them who is chasing the same Snitch. If Harry had been tossed into that fray after his first flying lesson, I doubt he would have succeeded - it took weeks of intense practice to get him to that level. In fact, what's remarkable, in my opinion, about Harry's first flying experience isn't that he succeeds, but that he tries in the first place. He gets on a completely unfamiliar vehicle and flies 50 feet into the air, threatening to knock another, more experienced flyer of his broom. And then he actually goes into a steep dive - which he has no idea if he can pull off - just to get his friend's possession back. All this leads me to the conclusion that has already been expressed in this thread - that Harry's true assets, the qualities that make him a hero, are his courage and perseverence. Sure, Harry is a powerful wizard, but that power is of no use unless he trains himself to use it - which he does, mericlessly. Abigail From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Oct 8 16:16:29 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 16:16:29 -0000 Subject: The Gleam Revisited Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45104 I was thumbing through book 1 last night- and just happened to read through the conversation Dumbledore had with Harry at the end of the book. IMO, Dumbledore's conversations with Harry are always significant in some way. In this particular conversation, Dumbledore mentions this idea: (excuse my paraphasing) in order to die you have to be human-and Voldemort no longer qualified as such. At some point, Hagrid makes virtually the same comment to Harry ( I cannot recall which book-sorry). IMO, I believe Dumbledore's gleam is a result of his realization that Voldemort has regained his human form- which now makes him vulnerable in a way he has not been for some time. This may be a too simplistic view to take-but sometimes you can overanalyze- a fault of which I am terribly guilty- obviously, or I would not be involved with HPFGU. Please do not get me wrong-I very much enjoy the analyzing of literature (I took novels classes in college-just for fun). I am just saying that sometimes a duck is just a duck-of course, it is up to each reader to decide when this is the case. bugaloo37-who is not in anyway trying to stop a discussion, just putting in her thoughts on the matter. From cureluv88 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 8 16:31:35 2002 From: cureluv88 at hotmail.com (Liz) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 16:31:35 -0000 Subject: The Gleam Revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45105 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > I was thumbing through book 1 last night- and just happened to read > through the conversation Dumbledore had with Harry at the end of the > book. IMO, Dumbledore's conversations with Harry are always > significant in some way. In this particular conversation, Dumbledore > mentions this idea: (excuse my paraphasing) in order to die you have > to be human-and Voldemort no longer qualified as such. At some > point, Hagrid makes virtually the same comment to Harry ( I cannot > recall which book-sorry). IMO, I believe Dumbledore's gleam is a > result of his realization that Voldemort has regained his human form- > which now makes him vulnerable in a way he has not been for some > time. I like this idea. I don't think it's too simple or anything. I just wonder why, if that's the case, Dumbledore couldn't just say that to Harry at the end of GoF. It doesn't seem like something that would have to be kept secret from Harry. What does everyone think? Lizbot From draco382 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 8 17:31:26 2002 From: draco382 at yahoo.com (draco382) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 17:31:26 -0000 Subject: The Gleam Revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45106 Lizbot Said: > I like this idea. I don't think it's too simple or anything. I just > wonder why, if that's the case, Dumbledore couldn't just say that to > Harry at the end of GoF. It doesn't seem like something that would > have to be kept secret from Harry. What does everyone think? > > Lizbot I've been lurking about and reading the discussion about this (I've been a bit out of touch with HPFGU lately, but like others have said, once an analyzer, always an analyzer and I just love to see what other HP-ites are thinking) and I really like this simple, but succinct idea that Dumbledore's gleam was the realization that Voldemort is "mortal". Concerning why he didn't just tell Harry this, maybe he didn't want Harry to get the impression that now Voldie would be "easy" to destroy. Even though Voldemort is now no longer vapour and gas, he is no less dangerous to Harry or the rest of the WW. But of course, now maybe there is a little vulnerability to Voldemort that will be the key to his un-doing, so to speak. So Dumbledore keeps it to himself and Harry is still on his toes. Constant Vigilance, and all that. my two cents :-) draco382 From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Oct 8 17:57:56 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 17:57:56 -0000 Subject: The Gleam Revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45107 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Liz" wrote: > > I like this idea. I don't think it's too simple or anything. I just wonder why, if that's the case, Dumbledore couldn't just say that to Harry at the end of GoF. It doesn't seem like something that would have to be kept secret from Harry. What does everyone think? > There seems to be a list of things that Dumbledore is apparently keeping to himself or at least, from Harry: 1) Why did Voldemort want to kill Harry?; 2) why does Dumbledore trust Snape implicitly?; 3)why does Harry have to return to the Dursley's each summer? and 4) why is Dumbledore seemingly pleased with Voldemort's regained human form? There may be other bits of information that he is keeping to himself-I just can't think of them right now. I think I have mentioned this before-but if so, here I go again. I believe keeping certain things from Harry and possibly others is another way of protecting Harry. IMO, the fact that we do not know why they are hidden, just adds to their mystique. It keeps us guessing. IMO, Harry will remain in the dark-so to speak, for as long as possible, though with only three books to go, I believe certain revelations will have to be forthcoming to keep the readers coming back for more. Good writing knows how to walk the line between giving and taking-lending credence to what we believe to be the truth and pointing out our mistakes in our understanding. Could it be if Harry knew of Voldemort's new found vulnerability, he would act differently? Perhaps, he would over-react or even under-react as the case may be with dealing with Voldemort? Decisions, decisions- Dumbledore is having to make quite a few now. He is having to place his confidence in others. Look at what is at risk-not just Harry's well-being but the future of the WW as a whole. What is good for Harry is good for all of them- not necessarily because he must be protected at all costs-but because each person has a value-a worth. IMO, when one person is harmed unnecessarily- we are all diminished. This is what I have gleaned from my reading. bugaloo37 From stevebinch at hotmail.com Tue Oct 8 17:48:45 2002 From: stevebinch at hotmail.com (Steve Binch) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 11:48:45 -0600 Subject: The Gleam Revisited Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45108 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: In this particular conversation, Dumbledore > mentions this idea: (excuse my paraphrasing) in order to die you have > to be human-and Voldemort no longer qualified as such. At some > point, Hagrid makes virtually the same comment to Harry ( I cannot > recall which book-sorry). IMO, I believe Dumbledore's gleam is a > result of his realization that Voldemort has regained his human form- > which now makes him vulnerable in a way he has not been for some > time. ME: Although the *Gleam* is written suspiciously, I have never liked the idea that Dumbledore was in league with *V*. IMO, *D* is as much a protagonist as Harry. What message would JKR be making to the children of the world by turning *D* into a villian? "You can't trust anyone!"? I just can't see a positive moral message coming from this. If that were the case, that *D* was secretly evil, it would leave me emotionally and mentally disturbed for the rest of my life, and I am a 26 year father of 2. Imagine how it would effect very impressionable children. Dumbledore MUST be realizing that *V* has just made himself mortal and can therefore be killed. It has to be so. I refuse to accept the alternative. -Steve B (who is now pulling himself together) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Tue Oct 8 18:08:50 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 14:08:50 EDT Subject: Digression; Pets at Hogwarts (was; Marauders Map & Pettigrew) Message-ID: <189.f68e912.2ad47932@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45109 Pippin writes; << I don't think that law-abiding Percy would have bent the rules to bring Scabbers to school (he's not a cat or an owl or a toad.) >> I don't think that there is any rule against students bringing animals other than a cat, toad or owl. (We never hear of any problem over Lee Jordan's trantula, for example.) I believe the instruction was intended to fend off children bringing a cat AND and owl, or an owl AND a toad or whatever. They might better have worded that each student was permitted to bring only ONE animal to the school, and that a post owl counted as that animal. There is no certainty as to just when Percy passed his pet rat on to his youngest brother, either. At the earliest possibility, he did so when he first weent to Hogwarts, at the latest, he did so when his parents got him his owl (when he became a Prefect) just before Ron's first year. The latter fits the best with Ron's statement on the Hogwarts express, but the former is not completely unreasonable. -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Tue Oct 8 18:09:00 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 14:09:00 EDT Subject: Pettigrew, the Twins, and the Map(new thought) Message-ID: <6c.23c99d4f.2ad4793c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45110 Risti writes; >>Maybe there's a code word that brings up a page of 'instructions', and late one night while everyone in the dorm room was asleep, he transfigured himself, muttered the words, then quietly transfigured himself again. Maybe he even set an old charm in place that allows only fellow marauders to see each other on the map, figuring that was a very unlikely event, and knowing he needed to hide his identity from the twins. << Sorry. There is absolutely NO evidence that Peter, or anyone else even knew that the twins HAD the map. They do not even seem to have shared that piece of information with their friend Lee. About the only person who might reasonably suspect its existence is Filch. Upon the whole I'm with bboy_mn in the view that the map only charts the hallways and a few public areas. After all it was designed by a pack of schoolboys (and we don't know what year they made it, do we?) and would hardly have been expected to have thought of everything, nor to know exactly how to implement it if they did. As to how Fred and George stumbled across the keywords in the first place? It's hard to say. It IS the sort of statement that a kid with the twins's style of irreverance might have declaimed with a wave of the wand while larking about. Or there may actually be some sort of an underground legend in Gryffandor tower regarding it. Just because Muggle-raised Harry never heard of it is no reason to conclude that the Weasleys might not have. After all, even given the general lack of interaction between students of different years, younger students can be a good deal more aware of their elders' activities than the elders realize. There are only about 15-16 years between the Marauder's leaving Hogwarts and the trio starting there, and there is a good chance of the older two Weasley brothers's first couple of years there may have overlapped with the Marauders'. (Note: Of course once Harry had the map, Pettigrew would have had another reason to disapear out to Hagrid's hut, where he knew he'd be out of range of it. He would certainly not have cast any spell limiting his appearance on it to other Marauders' eyes since by then he would have known that Lupin was at Hogwarts as well.) -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Tue Oct 8 18:09:02 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 14:09:02 EDT Subject: Harry's innate abilities Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45111 Interesting thread, but we've gotten off into a fruitless comparison between sports and music. No one seems to be carrying the observation back a step to a point where it makes somewhat better sense. Quidditch skills, per se, are probably not inheritible. But those Quidditch skills are the finished product. You don't start with the finished product, you start with the ingredients, and those very well might be inherited tendencies. For example; A good sense of balance may be inherited. Good reflexes may be. The sort of agility necessary to be able to change direction quickly without falling over or loosing control may be. A good sense of timing, good hand and eye coordination probably are. (Not necessarily vision. Both Harry and his father seem to have had to wear glasses -- or are James's glasses fanon?) Quidditch skills are composed of may other elements and rather a lot of them are things which an individual CAN inherit at least a nacent tendency toward, which can be trained in whatever direction the possesser of them might choose. There is a very reasonable likelihood of Harry's having inherited at least some of these basic strengths from one or both of his parents. -JOdel From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Oct 8 18:38:31 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 18:38:31 -0000 Subject: Harry's innate abilities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45112 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jodel at a... wrote: > > Quidditch skills are composed of may other elements and rather a lot of them are things which an individual CAN inherit at least a nacent tendency toward, which can be trained in whatever direction the possesser of them might choose. There is a very reasonable likelihood of Harry's having inherited at least some of these basic strengths from one or both of his parents. Thank you for the above statement. It ties in exactly with I have been saying for some time. What Harry inherited from his parents remains somewhat of a mystery-Harry is reminded almost constantly about his resemblance to his father, so we know, at least some physical attributes such as unruly jet black hair have been inherited. Lily's green eyes-another inheritance which I believe will prove useful at some point. The point you made which I wish to second is this: whatever Harry's inheritance, it will definitely be his choice how these skills are used. His quidditch skills have already proven useful in his battle against the dragon. They may also prove useful at a later time. Until we know more about his parents, any comparison would be somewhat stiffled. We know James was good at quidditch and was considered to be clever. We know he was a loyal friend. We know so little about Lily (why, of course, is the magic question). I for one am ready to understand Harry better and I think knowing more about his parents will help. bugaloo37 From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Oct 8 19:13:16 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 19:13:16 -0000 Subject: Harry's innate abilities/ sweaters and Christmas gifts/ Power of selflessness In-Reply-To: <012301c26e63$ab245d60$82a2cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45113 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > > Good point. Also, his innate goodness. For example, in GoF. While he has just jumped up with everyone else and hexed Malfoy and co., a point is made as he leaves that Harry "stepped over* them. As we know, others made it a point to step *on* them. When others are totally defenseless, Harry is not about to take advantage of them. Thanks for your response. I agree with your point also. His innate goodness must have been a hard attribute to maintain given his exposure to such people as the Dursleys. Here, IMO, is where we see the main difference between Harry and Tom Riddle/Voldemort's reaction to similar circumstances. Both deprived of a parents love for differing reasons, both exposed to uncaring muggles, - yet their reactions to these circumstances are vastly different. Tom Riddle takes his resentment of his father and punishes others with it. Harry thoroughly exposed to the worst the muggle world has to offer- does not let his tormented past effect his relationships with other muggles or muggle-borns such as Hermione. The same lessons that are being to taught to Harry via Dumbledore about taking charge and rising above circumstances were probably taught to Tom Riddle- obviously with very little or no effect. IMO, and apparently also Dumbledore's, we have to at some point no longer see ourselves as victims, blown by the wind, unable to make positive changes in our situations. In a world, where children are more and more becoming innocent victims, JKR's lesson concerning teaching children the ability to think for themselves-to say no-is a timely lesson indeed. bugaloo37-who wishes every child understood their worth and absolute beauty From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Oct 8 19:35:17 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 19:35:17 -0000 Subject: Digression; Pets at Hogwarts (was; Marauders Map & Pettigrew) In-Reply-To: <189.f68e912.2ad47932@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45114 JOdel wrote: >> I don't think that there is any rule against students bringing animals other than a cat, toad or owl. (We never hear of any problem over Lee Jordan's trantula, for example.) << There certainly was a problem over Hagrid's baby acromantula. There have to be some restrictions or he wouldn't have needed to hide it. I think the "permissible pets" rule, like the underage magic rule, isn't strictly enforced. In real life, "no pets" dorms and apartments often have animals in residence that the landlord knows nothing about, at least not officially. Is there evidence that anyone but students knows about Lee's tarantula? My guess is, Lee's tarantula hasn't caused any problems, so it hasn't come to the notice of the Powers That Be. Percy might not approve of Ron's taking Scabbers to school, but I'm not sure he actually knows about that either. L.O.O.N. question: do we ever see them together? Or is Scabbers always safely hidden in Ron's pocket or bag when Percy's around? (At Hogwarts, I mean. They were all in the Daily Prophet photo. Newspaper photos must be different than regular magical photos, since I don't think the subjects are able to hide outside the frame. Otherwise Peter wouldn't have been spotted. Maybe that's why the press photographers have special magical cameras, while Colin Creevy says all that you need is magical processing.) Pippin From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Oct 8 20:33:36 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 20:33:36 -0000 Subject: The Gleam Revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45115 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > I was thumbing through book 1 last night- and just happened to read > through the conversation Dumbledore had with Harry at the end of the > book. IMO, Dumbledore's conversations with Harry are always > significant in some way. In this particular conversation, Dumbledore > mentions this idea: (excuse my paraphasing) in order to die you have > to be human-and Voldemort no longer qualified as such. At some > point, Hagrid makes virtually the same comment to Harry ( I cannot > recall which book-sorry). IMO, I believe Dumbledore's gleam is a > result of his realization that Voldemort has regained his human form- > which now makes him vulnerable in a way he has not been for some > time. This may be a too simplistic view to take-but sometimes you > can overanalyze- a fault of which I am terribly guilty- obviously, or > I would not be involved with HPFGU. Please do not get me wrong-I > very much enjoy the analyzing of literature (I took novels classes in > college-just for fun). I am just saying that sometimes a duck is > just a duck-of course, it is up to each reader to decide when this is > the case. > > bugaloo37-who is not in anyway trying to stop a discussion, just > putting in her thoughts on the matter. More often than not, the most simple ideas are the ones that in the end are proven to be correct. This principle (known as Occam's Razor) tends to be ignored in this list (and I am the first to admit doing so. In fact, I once paraphrased Terry Pratchett by saying that, if Occam was a listee, he'd grow a beard). However, in this case, my favourite theory, MAGIC DISHWASHER, [Grey Wolf waits a few minutes for the groans and "not again"s to subside], while probably in direct oposition to Occam's razor as a whole, does propose the easiest interpretation to the gleam. This interpretation is very close to your, although it does include a bit of the rest of the theory with it. To put it in short (or as short as I can manage, which is more towards medium), Dumbledore's eye gleams because one of the big points in his plan has finally happened, after long and hard preparation (a more than a few gambles). This point was making Voldemort *mortal*. I had a pretty fun discussion some time ago about why the vapour!Voldemort was more dangerous than the human!Voldemort, that came down to: vapour!Voldemort is inmortal, human!Voldemort is not. And to kill him and be rid of him once and for all, you need him to be mortal. It gets a little more complicated (part of the gleam includes the fact that he used Harry's blood, which flaws the potion, according to MAGIC DISHWASHER, which was also part of Dumbledore's plan), but the general idea is that, finally, his main plan has advanced (after 14 years) and finally Voldemort is in a position were he *can* be killed. (On a side note, Hagrid mentions that "Voldemort wasn't human enough to be killed in PS, in the very first mention of Voldemort. This fact is later confirmed by Dumbledore, as you yourself have noted) If you notice, after the gleam Dumbledore is seen (by Harry) to look "older than ever". This is because, according to MAGIC DISHWASHER, he then realises that, although an important step has been advanced, there are still many more to come, and most of those will put many of his friends (including, but not exclusivelly, Harry) in great danger. And he probably wishes he didn't have to take those steps, but knows that, if he wants to rid the world of the danger of Voldemort, those steps are necesary. That is enough to depress anyone. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who, as always, recomends anyone interested to read the big posts on MAGIC DISHWASHER, although he cautions that the diverse threads are probably more than 100 posts long From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Oct 8 20:45:42 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 20:45:42 -0000 Subject: The Marauders' Map and Pettigrew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45116 Cyndy wrote: > > > I would like to know why Snape didn't realize Peter was on the map, > > and why he didn't believe the kids when they told him -- or tried > > to tell him -- Peter was Scabbers. Marina wrote: > By the time Snape saw the map, Peter was no longer on it -- the map > only shows what's going on in Hogwarts, and Peter was in the > Shrieking Shack by then. > > Marina Another possible explanation (in league with the thoughts of MAGIC DISHWASHER) is that Snape knew all along that Scabbers was, in fact, Peter Pettigrew, but had been ordered by Dumbledore to help him escape so he could help Voldemort to resurrect (and, as a minor by-product, make him mortal enough to be killed). This scenatio is much easier is Snape *looks* as if he doesn't know that the rat is important (or else hew would have to do something about it). Read's Pip's starting post of MAGIC DISHWASHER (39662, at that point called the spy game) to see the original thoery. Also, IIRC, it was later modified to say that Snape had been ordered to let "a Voldemort follower" escape, and at that point, for Snape, it meant any of the three surviving marauders (in fact, the three of them manage to escape during the next few chapters: Peter runs away, Black gets a handy hippogrif and Lupin leaves the school after careful rumours planted by -who else!- Snape. Although many evidence point towards Dumbledore being sure of Black's loyalty, he didn't want to risk it. In MAGIC DISHWASHER theory it's important that the follower that offered flesh for the resurrection had a life-debt with Harry, and both Sirius and Peter have it). Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Oct 8 21:04:36 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 21:04:36 -0000 Subject: Application of lessons / Quirrell plot hole? In-Reply-To: <20021007225609.34107.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45117 Barb P wrote: > Ironically, one of the skills necessary for Harry to get to the Stone > was Hermione's logic, which isn't taught at Hogwarts at all (which > means that Quirrell was at least as logical as Snape and Hermione, as > he also got past it). I have to point out that the person I think resolved the potion puzzle was not Quirrel, but Voldemort. Although many of the listees feel that Voldemort is only a stupid evil overlord, I think he is very intelligent indeed, perfectly capable of planing and plotting, and *more than a match for Dumbledore* (canon-point). He was definetely intelligent enough to almost win the last time (until his almost-fatal error of trying to kill a baby, which wasn't predictable for anyone, much less for him), so he's probably quite a logical thinker too. After all, he grew up in the muggle world, so I'd asume he got at least a brief view of muggle logic. > And, since one of Quirrell's specialties was supposed to be dealing > with trolls (and Dumbledore knows this, as Quirrell contributed the > troll to help guard the Stone), one has to wonder why Quirrell wasn't > immediately suspect for letting the troll in, especially as he didn't > do anything in particular to deal with it, as one would expect the > resident troll-expert to do. I can't remember whether this possible > plot hole has been mentioned before... > > --Barb You're making a big suposition there, Barb. There is no reason to believe anyone apart from Quirrel himself knew his proficiency with trolls. Let's examine Quirrel more closely: Before leaving for Albania (and his encounter with Voldemort), Quirrel had been a good DADA teacher from a theorical point of view. Hagrid (IIRC) mentions that his biggest problem was that he had no real practical experience with dark creatures of any kind, that he knew this, and that it was the main reason for going off to the Albanian forest to learn from first hand experiences. He later came back and he had (seemenly) turned into that handful of nerves, "scared of his own students" pose everyone takes for real. At that point, I don't think no-one would have thought him capable of confronting a house-elf, much less a full-grown troll. He still, of course, had his theorical knowledge of such creatures and would have lectured, difidently, Dumbledore if he had asked about his choice of guardian. At that point, Quirrell, who had had ample time to learn how to deal with trolls in Albania and was sure he could handle one, suggests a troll. And Dumbledore gets someone to bring him a big troll to guard the stone. As you can see, there is no reason for Quirrell to get involved. In fact, a few coments on the line "I think the creature I would most definetely would not want to fight is a troll" would have helped with both the situation and to instill in everyone's minds that he was as useless as a paper shield against the troll. And of course, if this was the case, no-one would suspect him of having fetched the troll for Halloween, not "poor stuttering professor Quirrell". Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who hadn't mentioned MAGIC DISHWASHER in this post, but which is no lenger the case From Ali at zymurgy.org Tue Oct 8 21:17:27 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 21:17:27 -0000 Subject: The Gleam Revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45118 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: IMO, I believe Dumbledore's gleam is a result of his realization that Voldemort has regained his human form- which now makes him vulnerable in a way he has not been for some time. This may be a too simplistic view to take- Grey Wolf responds:- More often than not, the most simple ideas are the ones that in the end are proven to be correct. This principle (known as Occam's Razor) tends to be ignored in this list (and I am the first to admit doing so. In fact, I once paraphrased Terry Pratchett by saying that, if Occam was a listee, he'd grow a beard). However, in this case, my favourite theory, MAGIC DISHWASHER, [Grey Wolf waits a few minutes for the groans and "not again"s to subside], while probably in direct oposition to Occam's razor as a whole, does propose the easiest interpretation to the gleam. This interpretation is very close to your, although it does include a bit of the rest of the theory with it. > To put it in short (or as short as I can manage, which is more towards medium), Dumbledore's eye gleams because one of the big points in his plan has finally happened, after long and hard preparation (a more than a few gambles). This point was making Voldemort *mortal*. I had a pretty fun discussion some time ago about why the vapour!Voldemort was more dangerous than the human!Voldemort, that came down to: vapour!Voldemort is inmortal, human!Voldemort is not. And to kill him and be rid of him once and for all, you need him to be mortal. It gets a little more complicated (part of the gleam includes the fact that he used Harry's blood, which flaws the potion, according to MAGIC DISHWASHER, which was also part of Dumbledore's plan), but the general idea is that, finally, his main plan has advanced (after 14 years) and finally Voldemort is in a position were he *can* be killed. Ali wonders:- I've always wondered if some of the significance of using Harry's blood is that he is "Pure of Heart". This is demonstrated by the courage that the Phoenix music instilled in him in the graveyard - we are told in FB&WTFT that Phoenix song is reputed to increase the courage in the pure of heart. If Harry is pure hearted, then it is possible that using his blood has a similar effect to using that of a unicorn. Firenze tells Harry in PS/SS p 188 UK paperback edition:- "The blood of a unicorn will keep you alive, even if you are an inch from death, but at a terrible price. You have slain something so pure, so defenceless to save yourself and you will have but a half life, a cursed life... Now, I know Harry wasn't slain, but his blood was forcibly taken, and there could be some parallels there. Just a thought anyway Ali Who's very upset that her car has been broken into and the radio nicked - in the same week that a couple (with a baby with them) have been seen dealing in the car park at the end of her road. So much for living in a "nice area"! From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Tue Oct 8 21:29:04 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 22:29:04 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Gleam Revisited References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45119 grey wolf writes " It gets a little more complicated (part of the gleam includes the fact that he used Harry's blood, which flaws the potion, according to MAGIC DISHWASHER, which was also part of Dumbledore's plan), but the general idea is that, finally, his main plan has advanced (after 14 years) and finally Voldemort is in a position were he *can* be killed." I think that we are accully underestimating Dumbledore when we say that his plan relied on Voldemort using Harry's blood. In hindsight, its an ovious place for a trap and I don't think that it could be relied upon. planning on the basis of your foe making a mistake is terrible statisegy. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Grey Wolf To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 9:33 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Gleam Revisited --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > I was thumbing through book 1 last night- and just happened to read > through the conversation Dumbledore had with Harry at the end of the > book. IMO, Dumbledore's conversations with Harry are always > significant in some way. In this particular conversation, Dumbledore > mentions this idea: (excuse my paraphasing) in order to die you have > to be human-and Voldemort no longer qualified as such. At some > point, Hagrid makes virtually the same comment to Harry ( I cannot > recall which book-sorry). IMO, I believe Dumbledore's gleam is a > result of his realization that Voldemort has regained his human form- > which now makes him vulnerable in a way he has not been for some > time. This may be a too simplistic view to take-but sometimes you > can overanalyze- a fault of which I am terribly guilty- obviously, or > I would not be involved with HPFGU. Please do not get me wrong-I > very much enjoy the analyzing of literature (I took novels classes in > college-just for fun). I am just saying that sometimes a duck is > just a duck-of course, it is up to each reader to decide when this is > the case. > > bugaloo37-who is not in anyway trying to stop a discussion, just > putting in her thoughts on the matter. More often than not, the most simple ideas are the ones that in the end are proven to be correct. This principle (known as Occam's Razor) tends to be ignored in this list (and I am the first to admit doing so. In fact, I once paraphrased Terry Pratchett by saying that, if Occam was a listee, he'd grow a beard). However, in this case, my favourite theory, MAGIC DISHWASHER, [Grey Wolf waits a few minutes for the groans and "not again"s to subside], while probably in direct oposition to Occam's razor as a whole, does propose the easiest interpretation to the gleam. This interpretation is very close to your, although it does include a bit of the rest of the theory with it. To put it in short (or as short as I can manage, which is more towards medium), Dumbledore's eye gleams because one of the big points in his plan has finally happened, after long and hard preparation (a more than a few gambles). This point was making Voldemort *mortal*. I had a pretty fun discussion some time ago about why the vapour!Voldemort was more dangerous than the human!Voldemort, that came down to: vapour!Voldemort is inmortal, human!Voldemort is not. And to kill him and be rid of him once and for all, you need him to be mortal. It gets a little more complicated (part of the gleam includes the fact that he used Harry's blood, which flaws the potion, according to MAGIC DISHWASHER, which was also part of Dumbledore's plan), but the general idea is that, finally, his main plan has advanced (after 14 years) and finally Voldemort is in a position were he *can* be killed. (On a side note, Hagrid mentions that "Voldemort wasn't human enough to be killed in PS, in the very first mention of Voldemort. This fact is later confirmed by Dumbledore, as you yourself have noted) If you notice, after the gleam Dumbledore is seen (by Harry) to look "older than ever". This is because, according to MAGIC DISHWASHER, he then realises that, although an important step has been advanced, there are still many more to come, and most of those will put many of his friends (including, but not exclusivelly, Harry) in great danger. And he probably wishes he didn't have to take those steps, but knows that, if he wants to rid the world of the danger of Voldemort, those steps are necesary. That is enough to depress anyone. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who, as always, recomends anyone interested to read the big posts on MAGIC DISHWASHER, although he cautions that the diverse threads are probably more than 100 posts long Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Oct 8 21:30:22 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 21:30:22 -0000 Subject: Application of lessons / Quirrell plot hole? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45120 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: > Although many of the listees feel that Voldemort is only a stupid evil overlord, I think he is very intelligent indeed, perfectly capable of planing and plotting, and *more than a match for Dumbledore* (canon-point). He was definetely intelligent enough to almost win the last time (until his almost-fatal error of trying to kill a baby, which wasn't predictable for anyone, much less for him), so he's probably quite a logical thinker too. I for one have never thought of Voldemort as being stupid. I agree with you completely that he is very intelligent. IMO, I think when you talk about Voldemort's failure to understand why he could not kill Harry-you are also pointing out his most obvious flaw-his inability to recognize the abilities of those he considers beneath him -such as muggles and/or muggle-borns like Lily. His suprise at the fact that her love packed such a powerful punch that it sent him reeling shows a complete lack of understanding and acceptance. IMO, this lack of understanding will be the chief instrument in his downfall. Harry's concern for and his ability to rely on others-to see positive qualities/abilities in others-to accept their help when it is offered; to see them as equals-not as tools to be used and disgarded, IMO, is Harry's greatest instrument in his fight for survival. I hope this does not sound too sentimental but I believe that Harry's ability to recognize and accept love, rely on love and return love will prove to be his most valuble talent. A talent completely beyond the self-proclaimed superiority of Voldemort. bugaloo37-who apologizes for running on-but once I get started it is hard to stop-in other words, I just love Harry Potter!! From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Oct 8 21:36:48 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 21:36:48 -0000 Subject: Animals souls In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45121 Kara wrote: > Then you have the case of "Moody" transfiguring Draco into a ferret. > Now.. a ferret is alive just as a human, so it's not quite the same. > But was Draco reduced to the simple mind of a ferret while he was > one? > > ~ Kara He probably was, yes. Canon points out in QTTA that "the witch or wizard who finds him- or herself transformed into a bat may take to air but, having a bat's brain, they are sure to forget where they want to go the moment they take flight" (not to be confused with the previous mention of flying animagi, who do keep their brain), so it seems like anyone who gets himself transformed into an animal looses his human brain along with his body. Maybe is this fact that makes animagi transformations so rare -and difficult: that when you transform, you have to change only your body, but not the intelligence that goes with it (although part of the mind changes as well: from Sirius we know that a transformed animagus's feelings are animalistic in nature). Veronica wrote: > Finally, we have a few occassions where animals are retreated rather > coldly--as though they have no soul. This is basically concerning > animals used in relation to transfiguration: > * Cedric turned the rock into a dog for the sake of distracting the > dragon during the first task, but was anyone concerned for this dog > being offered up as a sacrifice to the dragon? This was not a dog, anymore than if I used technology to put toghether a robot that, while looking like a dog and moving like a dog, was simply a piece of machinery. When transforming the rock, Cedric had to visualize the sort of dog he wanted, and in that image was included things like his expected actions and the sound of his bark (after all, the dog sticks around to distract the dragon, while any real dog would have probably run away as soon as he saw the several metres high, fire-breathing, talon-armed, scale-armoured dragon). It's still a rock, even if it looks like a dog. > Here are the two things I am specifically wondering: > > 1. Why do some animals have *more* soul than others? For the same reason some characters have more dimension than others: Harry knows some of them better, and some worse. If what you're refering to is to the level of consciousness the animals exhibit (the capability of understanding what is required of them and reading the mood of other creatures), well, that happens in real life as well: different animals have different amount of consciousness. Right after humans come dolphins and most of the apes, for example, while on the other side of the list you'd probably find many insects and most birds. Cats I'd probably place someplace in the middle: they seem to know, but don't give a damn, about the other creature's feelings. > 2. (And this is a little weird I suppose) What happens with animals' > souls during transformations? > > * Animals are created from inanimate objects--do they get a soul in > the process? If the previously mentioned dog was not killed by the > dragon (we don't know what happened to it), would it have had a soul? As I mentioned before, I don't think that inanimate objects get a soul in the process. In my view of magic, they are robots -automats- created by a form of technology (magic), but so far, you cannot give life through magic, which is what creating a soul would do: give it a life-force of its own. > * And what about animals that are transformed INTO inanimate objects? > What happens to the souls of turtles turned into teapots or hedgehog > (was it hedgehogs?) turned into pincushions? > > Veronica As for animals turned into objects, the soul is still there, even if the object doesn't seem to have one. If you transform an animal into a wooden plank and you snap the plank in two, you kill the animal. Canon point: the hedgehogs that had been incorrectly transformed still rolled into a ball when you tried to stick a pin in them, which means they were still partially "alive". This seems to indicate that Animal!objects are still alive, but that they cannot move or feel (since the object is inanimate). Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Oct 8 22:50:39 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 22:50:39 -0000 Subject: Application of lessons / Quirrell plot hole? In-Reply-To: <20021007225609.34107.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45122 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barb P wrote: > > And, since one of Quirrell's specialties was supposed to be dealing with trolls (and Dumbledore knows this, as Quirrell contributed the troll to help guard the Stone), one has to wonder why Quirrell wasn't immediately suspect for letting the troll in, especially as he didn't do anything in particular to deal with it, as one would expect the resident troll-expert to do. I can't remember whether this possible plot hole has been mentioned before...<<<< > But he *was* immediately suspected, according to Quirrell: ************** "Snape, who already suspected me, went straight to the third floor to head me off--" PS/SS ch 17 *************** Snape suspects Quirrell, and has probably shared all his suspicions with Dumbledore. Suppose they even suspect that Voldemort is lurking inside Quirrell: what could they do about it? It isn't clear that anybody but Harry could have hurt Quirrell as long as Voldemort was inside him. Quirrell's not afraid of Snape, certainly, "Tried to frighten me,--as though he could when I had Lord Voldemort on my side," though Snape can do AK ("Give me a reason to do it and I swear I will") None of the high security precautions at Gringott's were able to stop Quirrell at all, and that was *before* he was possessed. Dumbledore's hope, as I see it, was to lure Voldemort into looking into the Mirror, trapping him in front of it, or failing that, to force another confrontation between Quirrell and Harry, but not until Harry had become strong enough to resist him. Thus the obstacles before the Stone. Pippin From jayenks at yahoo.com Tue Oct 8 21:28:21 2002 From: jayenks at yahoo.com (jayenks) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 21:28:21 -0000 Subject: The Gleam Revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45123 Lizbot Said: > > I like this idea. I don't think it's too simple or anything. I > just > > wonder why, if that's the case, Dumbledore couldn't just say that > to > > Harry at the end of GoF.> draco382 Said: > Concerning why he didn't just tell Harry this, maybe he didn't want > Harry to get the impression that now Voldie would be "easy" to > destroy. Even though Voldemort is now no longer vapour and gas, he > is no less dangerous to Harry or the rest of the WW. But of course, > now maybe there is a little vulnerability to Voldemort that will be > the key to his un-doing, so to speak. So Dumbledore keeps it to > himself and Harry is still on his toes. Constant Vigilance, and all > that. I think it's more a matter of the gleam being what Dumbledore _thinks_. Voldemort says: "His mother left upon him traces of her sacrifice. . . . This is old magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it . . . but no matter." (GOF, US addition, pgs. 652-3). Later on he says of the spell that resurrected him "(cut)--it is an old piece of Dark Magic, the potion that revived me tonight--(cut)" (GOF, US, pg. 656) and later on, of Harry's home, "Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection (snip)" (GOF, US, pg. 657). It seems to me that all of these are powerful spells and workings that are not done very often, or at all in recent times, so simply not much is known about them. Therefore, Dumbledore may _think_ that Voldemort is human, but how can he be sure? And what if Harry acts on it? I really wouldn't want to hear 'oops, sorry, well, guess I was wrong; tricky thing this whole old-magic thing.' It could also be that Dumbledore is sure, but that he doesn't know what to do with the information yet. just adding fuel to the fire ~Jaye From kkearney at students.miami.edu Tue Oct 8 23:29:39 2002 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 23:29:39 -0000 Subject: The Marauder's Map & Pettigrew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45124 Arcum suggested: > > Or perhaps the map only shows Maurauders to other Maurauders. > Lupin is the only one who saw Sirius or Peter on the map, after all. > It could have been a safeguard, in case the wrong people got ahold > of it while it was active... And Marina countered: > I'm afraid that won't work -- Snape saw Lupin on the map (PoA, US > paperback, pg 358). That's how he knew to go to the Shrieking Shack. Now me: That doesn't completely rule out a safety mechanism. Perhaps there is some addition spell needed in order to make the map show the marauders. Snape didn't activate the map at all; Lupin did. So it's possible Lupin performed this additional spell that night. Why, of course, I wouldn't know. Perhaps he was checking to make sure Sirius hadn't payed another unexpected visit, or maybe it was simply force of habit. -Corinth From kkearney at students.miami.edu Tue Oct 8 23:36:44 2002 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 23:36:44 -0000 Subject: Press cameras (was Re: Digression; Pets at Hogwarts...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45125 Pippin wrote: > > (At Hogwarts, I mean. They were all in the Daily Prophet photo. > Newspaper photos must be different than regular magical > photos, since I don't think the subjects are able to hide outside > the frame. Otherwise Peter wouldn't have been spotted. Maybe > that's why the press photographers have special magical > cameras, while Colin Creevy says all that you need is magical > processing.) Sorry if this is getting off topic, but I just wanted to comment on this. It seems like a very sound theory. After all, a lot of subjects in newspaper photos are probably not all that thrilled to be there. For example, I'm sure the photographed Sirius would have retreated to the margins to protect his original self from identification if he could have done so. -Corinth From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 9 00:19:27 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 00:19:27 -0000 Subject: Harry's professional life...if he lives (Was: Harry's innate abilities) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45126 JOdel wrote: >>>Interesting thread, but we've gotten off into a fruitless comparison between sports and music. No one seems to be carrying the observation back a step to a point where it makes somewhat better sense.<<< Melody: Sorry about that. In trying to explain why I believe talent is different from skills, I got distracted. The comparisons of sports talents to music talents were an attempt to bring the discussion into a realm where Michelle and myself knew more first hand knowledge. Talent, whether for music or sports, is still talent, and I believe, and I hope Michelle agrees, we were trying to prove, using modern day examples, whether talent is inherited or a random gift. Sorry it got confusing. abigail wrote: >>>> All of these examples have to do with professional athletes or musicians and their children - have we ever seen any evidence that Harry's skill at Quidditch extends beyond that of a high school hero? Certainly Harry's brushes with the world of professional Quidditch have not led us to believe that he, or anyone around him, is in that league. Harry's reaction to the Irish Chasers and to Krum during the QWC is that this is Quidditch on a level that he was never aware of before, and while Krum compliments Harry on his flying skills later in GoF, one gets the feeling that this was the case of a professional complimenting a talented amateur, not an equal.<<<< Melody: Actually Harry has been compared to a capable (could of been professional) player quite a bit. Let me attempt to prove this: In the series, the one player Harry is compared to is the former "best" seeker Charlie Weasley. Charlie's talent/skills on the Quidditch field is repeated often in book one PS/SS. 1) The first introduction we have to Charlie is by Ron on the train where he says "Charlie was captain of Quidditch." (Ch 6) 2) Then in Ch 9, Fred told Harry, "We haven't won since Charlie left..." 3) Later in Ch 10, we learn from Wood (who lives, sleep, and breathes Quidditch) "...he [Charlie] could have played for England if he hadn't gone off chasing dragons." Therefore, we know Charlie was not only a team leader but a good seeker. Now, the first comparison of Harry to Charlie is by Professor McGonagall when she said to Wood, "Didn't even scratch himself. Charlie Weasley couldn't have done it." (PS/SS, Ch 9) The second comparison is by Wood, who said "I wouldn't be surprised if you [Harry] turned out better than Charlie Weasley..." (PS/SS, Ch 10) Therefore, by the end of PS/SS, we the reader think that Harry is quite a talented seeker, but still we do not *know* how good first hand. Maybe he is just good enough for school sports only, but it is implied that Harry is good enough to be professional. Little is compared in CoS and PoA other than the basic Harry keeps catching the snitch even under the most precarious situations. (Dobby, dementors, Malfoy) But in GoF, Harry and Charlie finally met. They get along, talk Quidditch, happiness is everywhere. Now at the QCup, Harry and Charlie are sitting together from the same vantage point. At the end of the game, Ch 8, there is a confusion of where the snitch is when Lynch crashed into the ground and the veelas attach. Now let me quote: "The Snitch, where's the Snitch?" bellowed Charlie, along the row. "He's got it -- Krum's got it -- it's all over!" shouted Harry. I took this to show that Harry's eyes are better than Charlie's. Next time Harry and Charlie met is at task #1. Charlie (along with Krum) watched Harry fly with the Hungarian Horntail. It has already been compared by Harry that this felt like Quidditch. Therefore, when both Charlie and Krum compliment Harry's flying skill, I took this to mean Harry genuinely impressed the two "great" seekers. Once again to quote: Charlie's compliments, "...but that was unbelievable." (Ch 20) Also Bill said that Charlie told him, "...you were incredible with the Horntail." (Ch 31) And Krum said, "You fly very vell. I vos vatching at the first task." (Ch 28) So from these compliments, which I do think are sincere, I conclude that Harry is talented/skilled enough to be a professional Quidditch player. None of the characters quoted have no alternative motives (great assumption ) in their words. They are just commenting and complimenting where it is due. Melody Who is still on her Beauty and the Beast buzz :) "There's something sweet...and almost kind..." From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Oct 9 01:25:18 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 20:25:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily's Last Labor of Love/ Gleam revisited/ Gred and Forge Are At It Again References: <20021008020129.22535.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <015f01c26f32$bb4e1620$63a1cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45127 Petra Pan writes: > Since I view the oft-mentioned "mother's love" as > more the motivation than the mechanism, I am > still puzzling over the means by which Harry > became the Boy Who Lived...surely Lily is not the > only person to love someone facing the wrong end > of Voldemort's wand as much as she did. > > So, what are the currently prevailing thoughts on > this matter? Ah, well, since you asked. :) First of all, I think it has happened before. Or else Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to explain it so well to Harry. BUT I think it is very rare. Very very rare. Maybe so rare as to have only happened once before, that anyone knew about. Or at least that Dumbledore knew about. For it to "work" I think the circumstances have to be exactly right. You have to love someone completely and totally selflessly. No restraint, no hesitation, no second thoughts. The purest of love. Second, you must not be a direct target of the "bad guy" in the situation. Lily was given multiple opportunites to save herself, to "stand aside." If she had been a target, her death wouldn't have been a sacrifice. One more point here, I still think it was a sacrifice of love as Dumbledore described it, that kept Voldemort from being able to touch Harry. I think Voldemort's description of it as "ancient magic" is a cop out on his part because he can't comprehend love. He's never been loved, never had anyone to love. I also think something else was/is protecting Harry, possibly the Elixir experimentation or something along those lines. It could even be that it wasn't Lily's sacrifice that saved Harry from the AK. That kept Voldemort from physically touching Harry, as evidenced by Quirrelmort. Quirrellmort was trying to get at his wand to curse Harry and be rid of him that way, but Harry had the good sense to hang on. We, of course, never actually see Harry being directly hit with an AK, as that would give it all away! But if he were, I think it would bounce again. Grey Wolf writes: > vapour!Voldemort is inmortal, human!Voldemort is not. And to kill > him and be rid of him once and for all, you need him to be mortal. > It gets a little more complicated (part of the gleam includes the > fact that he used Harry's blood, which flaws the potion, according to > MAGIC DISHWASHER, which was also part of Dumbledore's plan), but the > general idea is that, finally, his main plan has advanced (after 14 > years) and finally Voldemort is in a position were he *can* be killed. I also think the gleam stems from Dumbledore having previously suspected but not known something about Harry. Like the previously mentioned possibility of elixir experimentation. Obviously he couldn't try to kill Harry to see if he would die, yet he is still alive, sitting before him, having just explained that Voldemort was able to touch him. Touch him, yes. Hurt him, yes. Torture him, yes. Kill him? No. Ali wonders:- > I've always wondered if some of the significance of using Harry's > blood is that he is "Pure of Heart". This is demonstrated by the > courage that the Phoenix music instilled in him in the graveyard - we > are told in FB&WTFT that Phoenix song is reputed to increase the > courage in the pure of heart. Good point, since we have the proof that Harry is pure of heart. And I believe the unicorn is the only thing specifically referred to as pure, right? Which means another strike against Voldemort! This also ties in with Harry's stepping over Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle in the train at the end of GoF. He hates them, true, but in his pure of heart manner, takes care to not step on them. Nicole writes: > I am now waving my FAT CHANCE AT BALL flag > enthusiastically. When I first read this scene, I > laughed heartily but I didn't think too much about it. > However, when Lilac proposed this theory to me, it > really got me thinking and I've concluded, as she has, > that Gred and Forge were likely behind this prank. Are we so sure it was the twins? What about Draco? He's the one who brought Ginny into it to begin with. Plus, at Flourish & Blotts he says "Potter, you've got yourself a girlfriend!" Then after Harry "Expelliarmused" the diary away from Draco, and Percy finished fussing, he yelled after Ginny "I don't think Potter liked your Valentine much!" Could be he was just coming to that conclusion and saw a convenient way to embarrass Ginny, or otherwise he planned it. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From niemuthervin at worldnet.att.net Wed Oct 9 01:59:52 2002 From: niemuthervin at worldnet.att.net (animagi_raven) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 01:59:52 -0000 Subject: Harry's innate abilities Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45128 I was going to avoid this thread but I feel that I have something to add. It might end up that I just add a long post, but I want to see if I can get through this without being AKed by a genetics major or Crucio-ed by a moderator for being OT. Hang in there, I have to start with inherited genetics but I do get to a very interesting thought that is on-topic (I promise)! I'll start with a simple, measurable statistic such as height. For two people of exceptional height, the male children's height will not be a simple normal (bell-shaped) curve about their father's height, but will be a skewed curve trending back towards the genetic average. There is an influence from the mother's height as well. Keep that last thought, we'll come back to that. Now for a seeker, there are possibly hundreds of factors that affect raw ability (balance, sight, hand-eye coordination, recklessness, etc.), some more than others. I am talking strictly raw ability here since Harry's ability is noticed the first time that he is on a broom and he has never seen Quidditch played before that first broom lesson in PS. Since he is the `best seeker in over 100 years' (rats, can't find the quote just now) and his father is described a `an excellent Quidditch player' (McGonagall, p.152 SS) he is probably beyond his father's talents at flying. If his ability is genetically based and discounting that his abilities were not enhanced by some kind of magic (like that Anakin kid), Harry got the basis for his exceptional abilities from his father and mother. His father's gave him a good start. His mother's abilities have not been discussed to this point in the books. Unless he got incredibly lucky (OK, possible in a book) his mother's abilities were possibly equal to or better than his father's for some of those abilities. There could also be synergistic affects between the abilities he got from his parents. That part of genetics gets beyond me. I am also willing to accept that there was some early training of his abilities in balance, dodging, and observation by staying away from Dudley and his gang. So therefore, IMO Harry's abilities came from both parents, some genetic luck, and some early training of some of his abilities. Everybody gets to be a little right. My guess is that his vision or awareness will be from his mother because of those green eyes. It would be a nice literary touch. Animagi-Raven who does not think of himself as `moderated' but rather `under constant supervision for the benefit of society'. From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Wed Oct 9 02:44:51 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 02:44:51 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy-- The Center of the HP Universe? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45129 Have you ever just thought to yourself that perhaps Draco Malfoy has more of a *key* part in the Harry Potter book series? No? Oh well, that's why I'm here to influence you all into believing this little theory. All information will be paraphrased the best I can. I'm too lazy to find the *actual* text and attempt to piece together four books worth of information 1. Ron's friendship with Harry If Draco hadn't insulted Ron on the train ride during Harry's first year, then perhaps Ron and Harry wouldn't be such close friends. The only reason why they became such good friends is because of Draco's insult toward Ron and Harry sticking up for Ron. They might have *gasp* remained only acquantinces if this didn't happen. Oh the horror in that thought =p 2. The Hippogriff and Sirius Black Draco's injury from the Hippogriff caused Buckbeak to be tied up and almost executed by Walden MacNair, Head of the Disposal of Magical Creatures. Harry and Hermione were able to save Buckbeak and Sirius Black because of Buckbeak. If the Hippogriff wasn't tied up, then Hermione and Harry couldn't have saved Sirius--due to he's too high off the ground to be rescued. And it's all thanks to Draco's injury. 3. CoS Dueling Club If Draco and Harry hadn't dueled with each other, the Snake wouldn't have come out of Draco's wand-- revealing Harry was a Parseltongue. This means that Hermione wouldn't have been able to do her research and Ginny Weasley would have been murdered-- allowing Tom Riddle to return. (Gosh I would have loved that.. Riddle, YUM). Harry and Ron were able to save the day all because of Draco's dueling at Dueling Club. 4. GoF Rita Skeeter. By having Draco talking into his hand to the illegal Animagus form of our "beloved" reporter Rita SKeeter, Hermione was able to figure out who she really was. This became essential to part of the plot because all of the lies she caused throughout the fourth book. (ie: Hagrid's past, Hermione being a Scarlet Woman, and Harry Potter's secret heartache). 5. Quidditch All thanks to Neville's remembrall and Draco stealing it, Harry was able to make the house team. Was this a ploy so that Draco would make the team the next year and play the same possition? In any case, if Draco hadn't done that, Harry wouldn't have been made the new seeker and won the house cup during his third year. I could go on and on, however Dinner is ready and I need to eat. Draco is clearly the center of the HP universe. If anyone has any comments, do reply. --Fyre Wood, who proudly smiles at her post and waves hello at Gail. From nplyon at yahoo.com Wed Oct 9 04:27:26 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 21:27:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry's innate abilities In-Reply-To: <1034117447.4735.21403.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021009042726.72458.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45130 Melody said: > I think we are splitting hairs on whether or not > these two kids have talent. I believe they made and > sold records based more on their father's fame than > their own. That is just my pure opinion and should > not be used by me to say that they *definitely* do > not have talent. I'm sorry. I have to agree with Melody here. I don't think that you automatically inherit whichever talents your parents happen to possess. We are all genetically unique (unless we have an identical twin) so we all possess our own traits and talents. For instance, I am a writer but neither of my parents are. As far as I know, my grandparents are not writers either. My dad is an excellent gardener but I have unintentionally killed every single plant I have ever possessed. I think the same goes for Harry. After all, his parents were Head Boy and Head Girl and, thus far, Harry has shown no signs of having inherited the school skills that his parents possessed. Harry's mother was said to be skilled with Charms and while we have canon evidence that Hermione is skilled with Charms, we have none indicated that Harry is. > > Talent, to me, is something more extraordinary than > just skill. We inherit similar skills as our > parents because we inherit their physical > characteristics. Like Hagrid's large body. He > completely inherited his size and girth which is > very helpful in his gameskeeper skills of dragging > Christmas trees around the place. It is skill that > he can wrestle trolls. It is just his large size. > Frankly, our parents raise us up exercising our > bodies in the ways they learned which produced thier > skills. Again, I agree with you. This goes hand-in-hand with what I wrote above. My strongest talent is writing. My dad is an extremely talented gardener. Harry is talented at flying, evidenced by the fact that he is able to manage his broom much more quickly than any other student and is able to catch Neville's Remembrall in mid-air the very first time he mounts a broomstick. Harry also has some particular talents with magic, evidenced by his ability to produce a Patronus. It's also important to remember that while Harry may have inherited some of his father's physical traits, contributing to his Quidditch abilities, he also inherited some of his mother's physcial traits, which could either temper or enhance the physical attributes he inherited from his father. > > Skills can be honed. Talent cannot. Talent is more > ethereal. It just comes and goes as it pleases into > lives. One cannot explain why Beethoven was so > talented in composing. No one in his family had ever > written music, and no one has since. It was a sort > of "genetic" anomaly that touched down and left in > the same generation. Yes, agreed again. However, I think skills can only be honed to a certain extent if there is no talent. For instance, I am horrible at math. I can practice and practice and practice but it will never come easily to me. On the other hand, my husband is a natural with math and I call him the human calculator. I can hand him a can of beans at the grocery store and it takes him about two seconds flat to calculate the price per ounce. If Harry didn't possess some natural talent with magic, I don't think he would have been able to produce a Patronus. Now, we don't have any solid evidence that if Hermione were to practice really hard she wouldn't be able to produce a Patronus as well but I think that it's important to note that much is made of Harry's ability to produce one, indicating that this is not the norm with children of his age. Hey, I can shoot hoops but I am definitely not a candidate for the WNBA. I leave that to women who can not only shoot hoops but also possess some innate basketball talents. > I agree. I could practice for hours and never be > flexible enough to be a gymnast (though God knows > I've tried). I forget not everyone can carry a > tune. It is so ingrained in me to sing. It is > just, even though I can carry a tune, I do not have > talent in the field. I can sing for hours and never > sound like Kelly Clarkson or Celine Dion. The > ability to carry a tune is not an extraordinary > feat. Which is where, I guess, public opinion > enters. Part of talent is whether or not we agree > it is talent. This is what makes us all individuals though, right? If every single person in the world possessed the ability to play golf like Tiger Woods, paint like Monet, sing like Luciano Pavarotti, and write like Jane Austen, life would be pretty boring. There'd be no need to appreciate "talent" because everyone would possess it. The reason why talent is so admirable is because it is fairly rare. Not everyone can figure skate like Michelle Kwan, so that's why people admire her. I think JKR does a lovely job at representing this. Harry is talented at Quidditch, Ron is a talented strategist, and Hermione is intellectually talented. Their unique talents make them interesting and, even though Harry is usually the one to stand alone and defeat the bad guy in the end, it usually takes the combined talents of Harry and his friends to be able to reach the final stages of the battle. > So now to bring it all back to Harry Potter Reality > where we all live...it is told that Harry has talent > for quidditch. It is something that came easy for > him and distinguishes him from other students, > players, and seekers. Most sports are based solely > on physical attributes. Harry is small and sleek > which aids in his abilities. He has searching eyes > which actually are not that "good" since he does > have to wear glasses. I guess Harry's talent is > that he is fast. He cannot help it and it is just a > gut reaction. I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. I'm paraphrasing here but I remember JKR writing something about "You wouldn't guess it by looking at him, but Harry was really fast." This is how he's able to escape Dudley. I think his being small and thin contributes to his swiftness, making him more aerodynamic when he's on his broom. Were he as big as Hagrid, I highly doubt he'd be the master Seeker he is. > > Sigh, I hope this better explains why I disagreed > with you. My head is swimming with ideas that I > hope I explained correctly. I thought you made several good points. I understood your point. :) > > Melody > Who is on cloud nine today. Her first love, and > only competition with Harry Potter for her > attention, Beauty and the Beast came out on DVD > today with extra footage. :) "Heaven. I'm in > Heaven..." ~Nicole, who is also on cloud nine because Beauty and the Beast was *finally* released on DVD. It's her favorite movie and she had "Beauty and the Beast Fest" tonight. She laughed, she cried, she gave thanks that she finally has a DVD of her absolute favorite. :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Wed Oct 9 07:14:33 2002 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 07:14:33 -0000 Subject: The Marauder's Map & Pettigrew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45131 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "corinthum" wrote: > Arcum suggested: > > > > Or perhaps the map only shows Maurauders to other Maurauders. > > Lupin is the only one who saw Sirius or Peter on the map, after all. > > It could have been a safeguard, in case the wrong people got ahold > > of it while it was active... > > And Marina countered: > > > I'm afraid that won't work -- Snape saw Lupin on the map (PoA, US > > paperback, pg 358). That's how he knew to go to the Shrieking > Shack. > > > Now me: > > That doesn't completely rule out a safety mechanism. Perhaps there is > some addition spell needed in order to make the map show the > marauders. Snape didn't activate the map at all; Lupin did. So it's > possible Lupin performed this additional spell that night. Why, of > course, I wouldn't know. Perhaps he was checking to make sure Sirius > hadn't payed another unexpected visit, or maybe it was simply force of > habit. > Along the same lines, it could be that "I solomnly swear I am up to no good" is a general activation code anyone the map trusts can use, with a "guest" mode, and that each of the marauders had a different code, which would fully activate it. It could even be slightly subler, with the "guest code" Harry and Co know not showing any of the Marauders *in animagus form*, and Lupins code showing everything. After all, the Marauders didn't want their animagus forms as general knowledge, and may have wanted to be able to demonstrate the map without giving themselves away. Under this theory, Lupin used his code because it is the one he standardly uses, and Snape only saw Lupin on the map because he was careless enough to leave it activated on his desk. In a hurry or not, couldn't Lupin have said "Mischief Managed!" before leaving his desk? Makes you wonder if similar carelessness got it confiscated originally... --Arcum From potter76 at libero.it Wed Oct 9 09:29:58 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 11:29:58 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Gleam Revisited References: Message-ID: <3DA3F716.000006.39979@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 45132 Bugaloo37: IMO, I believe Dumbledore's gleam is a result of his realization that Voldemort has regained his human form- which now makes him vulnerable in a way he has not been for some time. Me: This is a very interesting idea but I'd like to say that we probably shouldn t focus very much on Vold having regained a body but on having regained some sort of, lets say, 'metaphysical humanity'. Vold *had* a body when the AK rebounded on him, however, he didn't die on that occasion because all the experiments' he had been doing had given him some sort of immortality, the body was gone but his 'essence' was still there. Now he has a body again but unless the rite he performed messed with the immortality he had obtained in those years spent studying the Dark Arts ( and so far we have no prove of this), he may loose it as the first time and still not die. I should think that his ( supposed) vulnerability is in new link with 'spiritual' rather than material humanity ( which basically is the same as saying - as I have in a previous post- that now Vold has bits of Goodness, through Harry, in him). I hope someone can make something out of this because I don't feel I managed to explain my thoughts very well, but it's kind of too complex for my English. R. From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed Oct 9 13:33:24 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 13:33:24 -0000 Subject: The Gleam Revisited - now with MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45133 Jaye wrote: > I think it's more a matter of the gleam being what Dumbledore > _thinks_. Voldemort says: "His mother left upon him traces of her > sacrifice. . . . This is old magic, I should have remembered it, I > was foolish to overlook it . . . but no matter." (GOF, US addition, > pgs. 652-3). Later on he says of the spell that resurrected > him "(cut)--it is an old piece of Dark Magic, the potion that revived > me tonight--(cut)" (GOF, US, pg. 656) and later on, of Harry's > home, "Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's > protection (snip)" (GOF, US, pg. 657). It seems to me that all of > these are powerful spells and workings that are not done very often, > or at all in recent times, so simply not much is known about them. > Therefore, Dumbledore may _think_ that Voldemort is human, but how > can he be sure? And what if Harry acts on it? I really wouldn't > want to hear 'oops, sorry, well, guess I was wrong; tricky thing this > whole old-magic thing.' It could also be that Dumbledore is sure, > but that he doesn't know what to do with the information yet. > > just adding fuel to the fire > > ~Jaye OK, I feel a re-examination of MAGIC DISHWASHER coming up, this time in the theme "who knows what". Now, as some of you who have actually manged to follow MAGIC DISHWASHER (as obscure as it has become) might now, information plays a *very* important part in MAGIC DISHWASHER. In fact, from a certain point of view (the original), there really is nothing more to it. Which is part of the problem, of course, since Dumbledore is as easy to read as a closed book, and those of us who like to think about conspiracy theories and counter-spionage tend to actively dis-believe what the bad guys (i.e. Voldemort) says. So, in conclusion, MAGIC DISHWASHER establishes some very tenous lines on who-knows-what in the Potterverse. Of course, what Filch (for example) might or might not suspect about Voldemort and his plans is really quite irrelevant (except if he happens to be the insider agent in one of the next three books, in exchange for magical power -i.e. FIE: Filch Is Evil), so MAGIC DISHWASHER concentrates on the big players. So far, those have been the two heads (Dumbledore and Voldemort) and their best agents (Snape and Lucius). And this is the point were things get tricky, since there is almost no canon to tell us exactly what each of them (1) knows, (2) let's others know he knows (3) doesn't know and it shows (4) doesn't know but simulates knowing and (5) knows but fakes not knowing. There can be a few more cathegories, if you start to include whether the people who know what is going on are only in his side, or on both, etc, but this is complicated enough as it is, and I'm going to forget to many details anyway, so I can introduce further complications in future posts if this thread gets interesting. (Please note that I'm only going to examine what my version of MAGIC DISHWASHER states about the knowledge around Harry's magical protection. It's not necesarily equal for other followers of MAGIC DISHWASHER, but it probably will come quite close unless I happen to put my foot in -in which case, as always, whatever I write will be open to correction) So, starting with Dumbledore. He seems to know quite a bit of what going on, although he keeps to himself most of that knowlegde (for reason which I'm not going to discuss here, mainly because they are irrelevant to this rant). Especifically, he seems to know quite a bit about Harry's magical protection, and he possibly is the one that knows most about it. Also, according to MAGIC DISHWASHER, he is the one who engineered the flawed potion in the first place, so he does know -better than Voldemort- what are the exact consequences of preparing the potion with -let's say- muggle bones, blood from a love-protected wizard and flesh of a life-indebted servant. We can safely assume that those consequences are bad for Voldemort. And of course, he knows what is the purpose of the potion because the one who originally presented it to Voldemort is now working for him: Snape, the Potion Master. MAGIC DISHWASHER relies heavily on this master-plan: Dumbledore made other options so unapealing that Voldmort took the flawed!potion by default (although he did try to go for the best solution, the PS, even if it was suposed to be well guarded). Dumbledore also knew that he'd need a Voldemort follower with a life-debt (preferably to Harry, since he's also part of the plan), which is were the marauders come in (see my previous post on the matter - I repeat myself enough as it is). Evidence suggests that he suspected that Sirius was inocent, possibly because Hagrid may have reported hearing rumours about Pettigrew being the traior while he was in Azkaban (we know from Sirius that those rumours might have been pretty common between the DE prisoners). Now, Voldemort has a totally different set of knowledge to go by. For one thing, he plays the offensive position, whilst Dumbledore plays the deffensive. Since the Reign of Terror was (and is) and information & terrorist war, one of the major advantages of Voldemort has is that only he knows who all his DE are (never mind the most prominent ones that Dumbledore probably knows about too, and that are the ones named by Voldemort in the Graveyard Gathering - I mean the ones that *didn't* get named and those that didn't even *attend*, those are the important ones). He's the only one who knows his inmediate, short-term and medium term plans (the long-term ones, becoming inmortal and ruling the world, are pretty obvious, unless we've missed something). He probably believes that his idea of the potion is infalible, since he has (after four years trying) managed to advance that small step in his plans: recorporate (it's actually a step *back*, in his own words, but he was in a blocked alley anyway, so it's the correct step to take). He does *not* realise that the potion is flawed (or wouldn't have used it). Also, he suspects that Harry's protection is some kind of spell he can pass onto him by means of Harry's blood (this is probably been missinformation from Dumbledore's side), even though it's probably not that easy. Finally, he knows who his insiders are, while Dumbledore, so far, has not been able to tract until the very end (although he might have guessed about Quirrelmort, as some listees have pointed out lately). Now, the other two players. Snape seems to have all the information Dumbledore has, even though prudence would probably drive *me* to withold any information that is not vital to Snape's job. The fact is, of course, that Snape seems to be the wild-card (aka Joker) in Dumbledore's deck: he's the one that's thrown into the danger without full information on what he's going to face, and is expected to come up with a way to do it. Some points in the Shack Scene seem to point out, however, that Snape's ideas doesn't always coincide with Dumbledore's (especially in what Sirius Black's inocence is concerned), and as I've mentioned, it is possible that Dumbledore has not informed him of details that do not affect him, but in general lines he seems to know as much as Dumbleodre does. Finally, we have Lucius. This is the most obscure of the four (mainly becouse he gets less screen-time), but we know he might be an independent plotter (if the riddle diary was his idea alone), or that he has been in contact with Vapour!Voldemort for a long time (if the diary idea was Voldemort's). As described by Pip in the spying game part II[1], he is possibly the most confident of all the DEs gathered and, if my prediction of Voldemort's plan proves to be correct (though is not canon-based, just logic-based), he's the one who will be selected as Minister of Magic after Fudge's downfall. All this suggests that he knows quite a bit of what is going on... even if Voldemort doesn't want him to. I picture Lucius as the sort of intelligent, cold man who is painfully aware of the risky position he is in. Although he might get a lot out of it (power, influence, revenge, etc.), he's also very close to being destroyed by *either* side. So, he's probably been fortifying his position, getting every scrap of information he could lay his hands on and form as many back-room alliances as he could manage to try to ensure that, whatever happens, he comes out in top (whether he succeds or not is, of course, out of his hand, but he *is* trying). Some people have objected to MAGIC DISHWASHER by saying that Harry is not important enough. Apart from the fact that that is metathinking, which I do not approve, and which MAGIC DISHWASHER is certainly NOT built upon, Harry is not important so far because he has not reached an age were he can cope with this sort of situation. I'd imagine that, as the trio gets older, they will be inroduced to the world were information and strategy rules over magic and raw force (and THEN Ron is going to be more useful than "the hero's sidekick" position he know has). Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who doesn't seem to manage to express his ideas in less than 500 words, no matter how *small* those ideas might be! [1] see post 40044. Anyone intersted might want to check posts 39662 (spying game part I), 39854 (MAGIC DISHWASHER: the re-cap) and 40059 (in this one I examine who knows what too, but at a much lighter level. I haven't recommended this one before, either, so some of you who are already familiar with MAGIC DISHWASHER might want to check it, since it's -relatively- "new" material). From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 9 16:57:16 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 16:57:16 -0000 Subject: Why Snape may know what he knows WAS Re: The Gleam Revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45134 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: > Now, the other two players. Snape seems to have all the > information Dumbledore has, even though prudence would probably > drive *me* to withold any information that is not vital to Snape's > job. The fact is,of course, that Snape seems to be the wild-card >(aka Joker) in Dumbledore's deck: he's the one that's thrown into >the danger without full information on what he's going to face, >and is expected to come up with a way to do it. Some points in the >Shack Scene seem to point out, however, that Snape's ideas doesn't > always coincide with Dumbledore's (especially in what Sirius > Black's inocence is concerned), This is one of the major differences between Voldemort and Dumbledore, I think. Voldemort has followers, Dumbledore has *allies*. Allies occasionally disagree with each other. Followers are not *allowed* to disagree with their leader. > and as I've mentioned, it is > possible that Dumbledore has not informed him of details that do > not affect him, but in general lines he seems to know as much as > Dumbleodre does. > Agreed. (Well, I would, wouldn't I [grin]) I can come up with several theories as to *why* Snape seems to know as much as Dumbledore in a lot of cases. One possiblility is that Snape's primary job is the protection of Harry Potter and we're being fooled again by seeing things from Harry's point of view - Snape *appears* to have all the information because he does have a need-to-know for all information likely to affect Harry. Snape might be much less well informed on who the MoM DE sympathisers are. Second possibility (and the most likely) is that Snape is fulfilling the 'Head of Intelligence' role; with Dumbledore running the grand strategy. If this is the case, Snape *will* know almost as much as Dumbledore. Snape is in a good position to be Head of Intelligence. He's a poacher turned gamekeeper[1] who knows from experience how DE's think, he's a Slytherin who has known many DE's from their childhoods at school, he is the teacher and head of house of many of their children (and we all know how much information about their parents children innocently reveal). [This would also explain the canon points that Snape rarely goes outside, hardly ever attends quidditch matches and is very bad tempered - he's a man with two demanding full time jobs and absolutely *no* spare time.] The final possibility is that the MAGIC DISHWASHER plan involves a 99% certainty that Dumbledore will die before it comes to fruition. This is a real possibility, I think. Voldemort does not understand love, he does not understand sacrifice, and he would not understand a plan in which his most powerful enemy would deliberately sacrifice himself. Voldemort would destroy the entire world before he would give up his own life. In which case, Dumbledore will be planning for his own death and must leave someone behind capable of carrying on the plan. Snape may be that person - he knows more than need-to-know because he's is Dumbledore's understudy. While Dumbledore is alive, Snape is expendable - Dumbledore can always train someone else. What *is* important is that (except in emergencies like the end of GoF Ch.35 ) Snape and Dumbledore never risk themselves *at the same time*. This would explain why Dumbledore tackles Quirrelmort at the end of PS/SS and Snape is conspicuous by his absence; why Snape tackles Black/Lupin/Pettigrew in the Shrieking Shack [PoA]and Dumbledore is then conspicuously absent. The three roles are not incompatible. Snape may actually be Head of Intelligence, Harry's main protector *and* understudying Dumbledore ... and if you burn through yet another cauldron, Longbottom, then the stress really will get too much for me and I will *disembowel* that toad of yours in front of the entire class! ;-) > > Some people have objected to MAGIC DISHWASHER by saying that Harry >is not important enough. Apart from the fact that that is > metathinking,which I do not approve, and which MAGIC DISHWASHER is > certainly NOT built upon, Harry is not important so far because he > has not reached an age were he can cope with this sort of > situation. I'd imagine that, as the trio gets older, they will be > inroduced to the world were information and strategy rules over > magic and raw force (and THEN Ron is going to be more useful >than "the hero's sidekick" position he know has). > Agreed. Metathinking says that Harry is the hero of the books. But MAGIC DISHWASHER is a theory based on the story so far, and so far Harry is not yet 15... Dumbledore is aware that Harry Potter is inevitably locked into the fight against Voldemort, has been since he became 'the boy who lived', but he is *not* trying to turn him into a minature general[2]. Instead Dumbledore's trying to let Harry fight the fights he's capable of fighting, and that Harry *wants* to fight, while still letting him have some kind of childhood. Harry has the right to judge the man who betrayed his parents to their deaths [PoA]; he doesn't need to know about the behind-the-scenes planning it took to get him to that point [see post # 39662], or that the judgement he has a right to make will have longer-term consequences. He is a child who should still be learning how to make moral choices; not an adult who may have to make grey, political ones. Pip!Squeak [1] Poacher turned gamekeeper: British proverb. A poacher is someone who steals deer, rabbits, grouse etc from someone elses land, a gamekeeper the person who tries to stop him. [2]if you want a story about a child being forced into becoming the general who wins the war, read *Ender's Game* by Orson Scott Card. It's very good. From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 9 17:46:38 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 17:46:38 -0000 Subject: Why Snape may know what he knows WAS Re: The Gleam Revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45135 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bluesqueak" wrote: > > Some people have objected to MAGIC DISHWASHER by saying that Harry > >is not important enough. Apart from the fact that that is > > metathinking,which I do not approve, and which MAGIC DISHWASHER is > > certainly NOT built upon, Harry is not important so far because > he > > has not reached an age were he can cope with this sort of > > situation. I'd imagine that, as the trio gets older, they will be > > inroduced to the world were information and strategy rules over > > magic and raw force (and THEN Ron is going to be more useful > >than "the hero's sidekick" position he know has). > > Agreed. Metathinking says that Harry is the hero of the books. But > MAGIC DISHWASHER is a theory based on the story so far, and so far > Harry is not yet 15... See, this is what I continue to have trouble with. From where I'm sitting, the entire MAGIC DISHWASHER theory is built on a single metathinking supposition -- that JKR is writing a LeCarre-style spy thriller -- and all the support for the theory comes from reasoning backwards from that supposition: *if* you assume the theory is true, *then* canon must be interpreted in a particular way. But if you don't start with any meta presuppositions, then there's no reason to assume that Snape know any more than he says he knows in PoA. All his actions are consistent with his past characterization, his expresssed conviction that Sirius is guilty, and his desire for vengeance and vindication. His behavior is perfectly adequately explained by the facts and motivations established in the text, without inventing an entire extratextual, invisible spy thriller going on out of sight behind the scenes. The invention of such a plot is a hell of a lot more meta than simply taking Snape's reactions in PoA at face value. It is not "metathinking" to claim that Harry is the hero of the books. The books are called "Harry Potter and --"; with the exception of one chapter in GoF and one scene in PS/SS, they're all written from his point of view. In every book, he's the one who takes the decisive action that saves the situation (even if all he can manage in GoF is a partial save). However fascinating we might find Snape, or Dumbledore, or Sirius, or Avery, or Mrs LeStrange, the books are not about them; they're about Harry. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From crussell at arkansas.net Wed Oct 9 18:13:58 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 18:13:58 -0000 Subject: Why Snape may know what he knows WAS Re: The Gleam Revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45136 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marinafrants" wrote: > > It is not "metathinking" to claim that Harry is the hero of the > books. The books are called "Harry Potter and --"; with the > exception of one chapter in GoF and one scene in PS/SS, they're all > written from his point of view. In every book, he's the one who > takes the decisive action that saves the situation (even if all he > can manage in GoF is a partial save). However fascinating we might > find Snape, or Dumbledore, or Sirius, or Avery, or Mrs LeStrange, > the books are not about them; they're about Harry. > Thank you for the above statement concerning Harry's importance. I have been trying to come up with a way to say exactly the same thing. There are some very interesting unknowns concerning Snape, Dumbledore, Lupin, Sirius, Hagrid: Who are they really? What are they really up to? and in some cases: where do their loyalties lie? As I've said before, I consider the HP series mystery novels- supplying small amounts of clues which of course can lead to all kinds of assumptions and speculations. But one thing that I as a reader am sure of (of course, this is only my opinion) is this: Harry Potter is the center of my perception of the WW. It is through his eyes that I see everything;therefore, my opinion is tainted by his. Is there more to Snape than meets the eye? Sure- and I believe that Harry is begining to think so too. Does Dumbledore know more than he lets on? Yes-definitely, and Harry knows this too. Is Harry for whatever reason Voldemort's primary target? Yes- and again, Harry knows this too-but just like us, he does not know why. Is it necessary for him to know why at this point? I say no-who knows what effect it might have on Harry? But if we the reader knew-the series would effectively be over. As long as Harry is in the dark, so are we. That's what keeps me reading. This does not mean we cannot have lots of fun trying to figure things out. I guess what I am saying is this: coming up with theories is fun-it's what keeps life interesting. But please do not try and tell me that Harry's importance to the series will not come till the end of the series-IMO, that just doesn't make any sense. From sgarfio at yahoo.com Wed Oct 9 17:57:12 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (sgarfio) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 17:57:12 -0000 Subject: Why is AK unforgiveable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45137 Ooh ooh, I just had an idea. This ties into with the recent posts that have speculated that AK is Unforgiveable because the victim's soul is captured, therefore depriving the victim of any kind of afterlife, such as ghosthood. If Voldemort AK'ed Baby Harry and the curse rebounded on him, where would Voldemort's soul go? Into his own wand? Into Harry? Nowhere? Of course we don't know the mechanism by which the soul is transferred, but here's what I'm thinking: Normally, the curse would go out of the wand to the victim, grab the victim's soul, and bring it back into the wand. But what if the curse bounces off of the victim, as it did with Baby Harry? Now the curse goes from Voldemort's wand to Harry, bounces back to Voldemort *empty-handed*, so to speak, and grabs Voldemort's soul. Now it's as if the victim has initiated the curse, like light bouncing off a mirror. Since Baby Harry had no wand, there would be no place for Voldemort's soul to go. It wouldn't be captured, but neither would it still be housed in his body, and his body would die. This is not a normal state for a soul; it must be housed in something, which is why Voldemort had to inhabit other bodies to survive. Having to house two souls is not what bodies are built for, so they burn out after a short time. My apologies if this just reiterates something somebody else has already said; I'm still quite new here, but this was something of an "aha!" for me. :-) Sherry From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed Oct 9 18:44:11 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 18:44:11 -0000 Subject: Why Snape may know what he knows WAS Re: The Gleam Revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45138 Marina wrote: > See, this is what I continue to have trouble with. From where I'm > sitting, the entire MAGIC DISHWASHER theory is built on a single > metathinking supposition -- that JKR is writing a LeCarre-style spy > thriller -- and all the support for the theory comes from reasoning > backwards from that supposition: *if* you assume the theory is true, > *then* canon must be interpreted in a particular way. No, it's not a metathinking assumption of any kind. For one, I have not read Le-Carre *ever* so I couldn't identify his style even if I tried. I joined the spy-game train after reading Pip's first post on the matter. I had grown unconvinced on the accepted vision on the books, *because* it was metathinking: what I call the ego-centric Harry (Harry is the centre of everything that happens - see bellow for my reasoning on why it's metathinking). Pip's theory, on the other hand, takes a step back and asks what is *really* going on? and grows from that: from observing what was going on in the Potterverse *before* Harry entered the picture. Let me give you a run-down: 10 years before Harry was born, Voldemort had managed to achive national (and possibly international) fame. There was something going on (not exactly a war) that has been called "the Reign of Terror". What could be this? Not a civil war, certainly, since we know that most of the DEs were not known. This fits perfectly, however, with a situation that has been hapening for a long time now in both my country and JKR's: a terrorist action. Taken to the extreme, and with the capabilities for hiding that the wizards have developed over the last 500 years, Voldemort reached a point were he was unstoppable... or at least it was unstoppable for the MoM that, by all reports, was about to give in. What was Dumbledore doing? What were his plans? the fact is that we don't know, but I believe that it's a good suposition that he *had* plans. Posibly involving the Potters, Ancient Magic, maybe the PS, Snape, etc. The only thing we can reasonably sure of is that he wasn't going to try a direct confrontation, because Dumbledore knows he couldn't pull an AK, not even on Voldemort (even if he could find out were he was). Experience (both from my country and from England) has demonstrated that fighting terrorism with naked force is useless anyway. Only spying techinques (what I normally call "information wars") have a minimun chance of being succesful. Dumbledore is intelligent enough to realise that and, since the MoM was already taking the confrontation option, he knew he had to take the matters into his own hands. Then, a cataclismic event took place: Voldemort had comited an error, something so minuscle and utterly inprobable and yet so useful: he had managed to blow himself *almost* dead when trying to kill a baby. In any war, but especially an information war, errors are very costly, and Dumbledore started to work inmediately. What work? Why, planing how to make use of that error to destroy once and forever the threat of Voldemort. And the rest, as they say, is history. Note that I haven't mentioned JKR other to put examples of terrorism wars, and I have not mentioned the fact that HP is a book, nor that in it JKR is God and Creator. At all points I treat Dumbledore et co. as if they were real beings, capable of abstract thought. NOT as secondary characters of a literature piece called "the Adventures of Harry Potter". As I said, MAGIC DISHWASHER is NOT metathinking. > But if you don't start with any meta presuppositions, then there's > no reason to assume that Snape know any more than he says he knows > in PoA. All his actions are consistent with his past > characterization, his expresssed conviction that Sirius is guilty, > and his desire for vengeance and vindication. His behavior is > perfectly adequately explained by the facts and motivations > established in the text, without inventing an entire extratextual, > invisible spy thriller going on out of sight behind the scenes. The > invention of such a plot is a hell of a lot more meta than simply > taking Snape's reactions in PoA at face value. Read Pip's post 39662 for the full description, but the fact is that Snape shows some pretty strange behaviour during the scene. Strange, that is, until Pip's examination wrings some sense into his movements. Taking Snape's actions at face value would almost mean that he's a dangerous sycopath, which we know he isn't. He was under preassure, when he was in no particular phisical danger, so it must be something else he's worried about... > It is not "metathinking" to claim that Harry is the hero of the > books. The books are called "Harry Potter and --"; with the > exception of one chapter in GoF and one scene in PS/SS, they're all > written from his point of view. In every book, he's the one who > takes the decisive action that saves the situation (even if all he > can manage in GoF is a partial save). However fascinating we might > find Snape, or Dumbledore, or Sirius, or Avery, or Mrs LeStrange, > the books are not about them; they're about Harry. > > Marina I have to disagree strongly here: *making* Harry the centre of all theories *just* because HP is a book with his name and he's the one who almost always the story centres in IS the most pure form of metathinking. Read, for example, a similar book, the Belgariad, were the main character IS the centre of almost everything that goes on. And not even then, since there are things that go around him that have nothing to do with him. In a good fantasy world, the universe shouldn't spin around whomever happens to have his name in the cover. Because the real world is not like that, and a fantasy, to be enjoyable, must be a reflection of our world, with a few changes to the physical rules. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Wed Oct 9 19:31:34 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 20:31:34 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why is AK unforgiveable References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45139 Hi, I'm not sure I agree with your idea because surley Moody would have mentioned something when he was teaching about it. I suspect that AK is unforgivable because it is the only (this strikes me as odd, but it seems to fit in-canon) spell that has to be used with deliberate intent to kill. If you use AK, you are going to commit murder anyway. and you know that right from the beginning. AK is not an accidental death. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: sgarfio To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 6:57 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why is AK unforgiveable Ooh ooh, I just had an idea. This ties into with the recent posts that have speculated that AK is Unforgiveable because the victim's soul is captured, therefore depriving the victim of any kind of afterlife, such as ghosthood. If Voldemort AK'ed Baby Harry and the curse rebounded on him, where would Voldemort's soul go? Into his own wand? Into Harry? Nowhere? Of course we don't know the mechanism by which the soul is transferred, but here's what I'm thinking: Normally, the curse would go out of the wand to the victim, grab the victim's soul, and bring it back into the wand. But what if the curse bounces off of the victim, as it did with Baby Harry? Now the curse goes from Voldemort's wand to Harry, bounces back to Voldemort *empty-handed*, so to speak, and grabs Voldemort's soul. Now it's as if the victim has initiated the curse, like light bouncing off a mirror. Since Baby Harry had no wand, there would be no place for Voldemort's soul to go. It wouldn't be captured, but neither would it still be housed in his body, and his body would die. This is not a normal state for a soul; it must be housed in something, which is why Voldemort had to inhabit other bodies to survive. Having to house two souls is not what bodies are built for, so they burn out after a short time. My apologies if this just reiterates something somebody else has already said; I'm still quite new here, but this was something of an "aha!" for me. :-) Sherry Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Oct 9 20:12:50 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 20:12:50 -0000 Subject: Cold High Voice (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45140 Guess it's obvious who this is one about, right? BTW, "Magic" in the third stanza refers to a 1979 Richard Attenborough film starring a then little-known Anthony Hopkins Cold High Voice To the tune of Hank Williams' Cold Cold Heart Hear the orginal at: http://isweb3.infoseek.co.jp/misc/hmika/country&western.htm Dedicated to Pippin In the rule book for superfiends, the first thing it would seem That a bass register is best for plotting evil schemes Deep timbres sound so menacing, when urbanely deployed Then why oh why does Voldemort have such a cold high voice? In Verdi's opera, Iago sings a deep baritone The villainy of Darth Vadar is voiced by James E. Jones In Touch of Evil vileness makes Orson Welles rejoice We can't even imagine them using a cold high voice In Magic, Anthony Hopkins (before that Lecter part) Played a ventriloquist whose doll had an assassin's heart In a rather quite a cold high voice that dummy sneered each word Charlie McCarthy as the beast, Volde-Mortimer Snerd So even though his vocal chords express a shriller pipe The Dark Lord's goal is to destroy all deep-voice stereotypes So by the end of Book Seven, depending how it goes Lord Voldemort could land a role with TV's Sopranos - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 9 20:55:41 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 20:55:41 -0000 Subject: Why Snape may know what he knows WAS Re: The Gleam Revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45141 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: > Marina wrote: > > See, this is what I continue to have trouble with. From where I'm > > sitting, the entire MAGIC DISHWASHER theory is built on a single > > metathinking supposition -- that JKR is writing a LeCarre-style spy > > thriller -- and all the support for the theory comes from reasoning > > backwards from that supposition: *if* you assume the theory is true, > > *then* canon must be interpreted in a particular way. > > No, it's not a metathinking assumption of any kind. For one, I have not > read Le-Carre *ever* so I couldn't identify his style even if I tried. > I joined the spy-game train after reading Pip's first post on the > matter. I had grown unconvinced on the accepted vision on the books, > *because* it was metathinking: what I call the ego-centric Harry (Harry > is the centre of everything that happens - see bellow for my reasoning > on why it's metathinking). Pip's theory, on the other hand, takes a > step back and asks what is *really* going on? and grows from that: from > observing what was going on in the Potterverse *before* Harry entered > the picture. Let me give you a run-down: > > > Note that I haven't mentioned JKR other to put examples of terrorism > wars, and I have not mentioned the fact that HP is a book, nor that in > it JKR is God and Creator. At all points I treat Dumbledore et co. as > if they were real beings, capable of abstract thought. NOT as secondary > characters of a literature piece called "the Adventures of Harry > Potter". As I said, MAGIC DISHWASHER is NOT metathinking. Okay, we're using two different definitions of metathinking here. I think I was confused by the fact that you seemed to be setting up "meta" and "canon-based" as opposing concepts, which I now see they're not. You're limiting your definition of "meta" to the "lit- crit" approach, while I was defining it in more general terms as any extratextual thinking, in which the reader's interpretation of the text is filtered through considerations from outside the text. In the case of the DISHWASHER, the filter is your knowledge and understanding of the way anti-terrorist campaigns are conducted in real life. We can call it "external thinking," or some other suitable name to distinguish it from the lit-crit method. This is a perfectly valid approach -- I think the DISHWASHER theory is very well thought-out, even if I disagree with it -- but it's no more canonically rigorous than the lit-crit approach, or the philosophical one, or any number of other methods people use to interpret the text. > Read Pip's post 39662 for the full description, but the fact is that > Snape shows some pretty strange behaviour during the scene. Strange, > that is, until Pip's examination wrings some sense into his movements. > Taking Snape's actions at face value would almost mean that he's a > dangerous sycopath, which we know he isn't. He was under preassure, > when he was in no particular phisical danger, so it must be something > else he's worried about... Not if you accept that Snape truly believes that Sirius is a highly dangerous mass-murdering psycho and Lupin is in cahoots with him. *We* know Snape was in no particular physical danger, but Snape didn't. As far as he was concerned, Snape was in a heck of a lot of danger -- if Lupin and Sirius attacked him together, he'd be toast. And it's not just him, either. Three stupid, inconsiderate, disobedient brats have gone out and put themselves in danger too. Later, of course, once Snape is talking to Fudge, the danger is past. But by then you have to make allowances for the emotional roller-coaster he's been put through. Fifteen years' worth of anger, finally presented with an outlet and a target, as well as with a chance at vindication -- and then it all gets snatched away. Considering that Snape, in general, is not a man known for his mild, even-tempered disposition, I think he handled it remarkably well. >> I have to disagree strongly here: *making* Harry the centre of all > theories *just* because HP is a book with his name and he's the one who > almost always the story centres in IS the most pure form of > metathinking. Read, for example, a similar book, the Belgariad, were > the main character IS the centre of almost everything that goes on. And > not even then, since there are things that go around him that have > nothing to do with him. In a good fantasy world, the universe shouldn't > spin around whomever happens to have his name in the cover. I never said the universe revolved around Harry, I said the *story* revolved around Harry. Now I suppose you're going to say that by bringing the concept of story into it I'm indulging in meta- thinking, but I think that attempting to analyze a literary text without ever acknowledging that it *is* a literary text is a highly artificial and pitfall-laden approach. Of course, a lot of it has to do with what your goal is. If a theory is intended purely as an intellectual exercise, then anything goes. But if you're actually trying to predict where the story will go, then you have to deal with the fact that it is a story, not a news report or a historical chronicle, and examine the literary underpinnings. Example: if you were trying to predict the ending of a traditional cozy British mystery, you would not say "the killer will be the most likely suspect" or "the killer will be an anonymous drifter with no connection to anyone in town." That may happen all the time in real life, but that's not how it happens in cozy British mysteries. Now, the HP series aren't quite as genre-bound, but I still don't think you can just ignore the fact that Harry is the protagonist of the story, or that free choice, morality and the power of love have been established as major themes. Many people have said that the final outcome of the Harry-Voldemort conflict will not depend on who's the more powerful wizard. I agree with this, and I also think that the outcome will not depend on which shadowy puppet-master does a better job of manipulating his pawns. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From arkayas at cgocable.net Wed Oct 9 20:54:28 2002 From: arkayas at cgocable.net (Arkayas) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 20:54:28 -0000 Subject: The Marauder's Map & Pettigrew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45142 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "atticus_finch76" wrote: > OK, what I have to say doesn't really go along with the discussion at > hand, but i was wondering if Fred and George never noticed that some > guy named Peter Pettigrew was always hanging around with Percy and > later on Ron if they had to Map for a few years. Just a nitpicky > thing that may have a perfectly obvious, reasonable anwser, but I > can't see it. Two good possible answers are that Scabbers was more than likely in the Tower a lot with a lot of people around, so my guess is the map would be a jumble of names overlapping each other. Generally being next to impossible to read since this is a parchment and not a poster size map, and that would be a lot of names in a confined area. The other possible answer is that the map can 'zoom' into areas that the user wishes to view closely, and thus would almost always be zoomed into where Fred and George were concentrating on and not showing the Dorm Tower, where Scabbers was more than likely most of the time. From jayenks at yahoo.com Wed Oct 9 21:22:57 2002 From: jayenks at yahoo.com (Jackie) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 14:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Metathinking (was: Why Snape may know what he knows) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021009212257.70208.qmail@web40303.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45143 > > Grey Wolf wrote: > > > > > I have to disagree strongly here: *making* Harry > the > > > centre of all theories *just* because HP is a > book > > >with his name and he's the one who almost always > the > > >story centres in IS the most pure form of > > >metathinking. Read, for example, a similar book, > the > > >Belgariad, were the main character IS the centre > of > > >almost everything that goes on. And not even > then, > > >since there are things that go around him that > have > > >nothing to do with him. In a good fantasy world, > the > > >universe shouldn't spin around whomever happens > to > > >have his name in the cover. Because the real > world is > > > > >not like that, and a fantasy, to be enjoyable, > must > > >be a reflection of our world, with a few changes > to > > >the physical rules. I agree with this thinking. The book can be from Harry's viewpoint, and Harry can be the catalyst for many events, without being involved in everything. In the same vein, though, this involves my theory on Dumbledore not knowing for sure the effects of Voldemort's spell. Nowhere in cannon does it say that Dumbledore played with dark potions. He is involved in alchemy with Flamel, but turning metal into gold does not sound like a dark potion to me. It also mentions that he came up with 12 uses for Dragon's Blood, but the potion involved no dragon's blood(as far as we know), it involved Nagini's venom. If we are to believe that Harry's world is governed by the same general rules that ours is, it is not logical to deny Harry omnipotence and at the same time give it to Dumbledore. He knows a lot, for sure, but he can't know everything. Jaye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 9 22:22:01 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 22:22:01 -0000 Subject: Metathinking and Why Snape may know what he knows WAS Re: The Gleam Revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45144 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marinafrants" wrote: > > Marina writes: > > It is not "metathinking" to claim that Harry is the hero of the > > books. The books are called "Harry Potter and --"; with the > > exception of one chapter in GoF and one scene in PS/SS, they're all > > written from his point of view. In every book, he's the one who > > takes the decisive action that saves the situation (even if all he > > can manage in GoF is a partial save). That is not really true. In PS/SS Harry tries to save the Stone, true, but it is Dumbledore who rescues him " I arrived just in time to pull Quirrell off you - " [PS/SS p. 215, Ch. 17 UK Paperback]and Dumbledore who allows him to attempt saving the stone, as Harry recognises. "...I reckon he had a pretty good idea we were going to try, and instead of stopping us, he just taught us enough to help...It's almost like he thought I had the right to face Voldemort if I could..." [PS/SS p.219, Ch. 17 UK paperback]. In CoS Harry's actions definitely save Ginny's life - but his own life is only saved by the actions of Fawkes (who of course, is *Dumbledore's* pet)- and Dumbledore has given Harry an *extremely* strong hint on how to get help: "However," said Dumbledore, speaking very slowly and clearly so that none of them could miss a word, "you will find that I will only *truly* have left this school when none here are loyal to me. You will also find that help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it." 'For a second, Harry was almost sure Dumbledore's eyes flickered towards the corner where he and Ron stood hidden.' [CoS, p. 195, Ch.14, UK paperback]. I've discussed the Shrieking Shack in PoA extensively in # 39662, but whether you want to read it with 'Snape the spy' in your head or not, Harry does *not* take decisive action until Snape pushes him into it (whether you want to read that as unintended on Snape's part is up to you). And GoF, of course, is where Harry is moving firmly into adulthood. He saves himself in the graveyard. He selected his own wand (or it selected him) and it is the shared core with Voldemort's wand that helps him survive. He needs rescuing by Dumbledore, Snape and McGonagall later mainly because he is wounded and exhausted and in no shape to defend himself. However fascinating we might > > find Snape, or Dumbledore, or Sirius, or Avery, or Mrs > > LeStrange,the books are not about them; they're about Harry. > > > I think you are confusing the idea of 'the central character' (which Harry is) with 'the hero that everything revolves around' (which Harry is not). Currently, Harry is no more the sole person involved in the Voldemort wars than he would have been the sole person involved if JKR had decided to set the books in 1938 to 1945. Whatever caused Susan Bones to lose her grandparents to DE hit squads probably had little to do with the Potters. Dumbledore was fighting Voldemort before Harry was even *born* or James and Lily were married. As Grey Wolf points out, > In a good fantasy world, the universe shouldn't spin around > whomever happens to have his name in the cover. Because the > real world is not like that, and a fantasy, to be enjoyable, must > be a reflection of our world, with a few changes to the physical > rules. Bugaloo writes: > Thank you for the above statement concerning Harry's importance. > As I've said before, I consider the HP series mystery novels- > supplying small amounts of clues which of course can lead to all > kinds of assumptions and speculations. But one thing that I as a > reader am sure of (of course, this is only my opinion) is this: > Harry Potter is the center of my perception of the WW. It is > through his eyes that I see everything;therefore, my opinion is > tainted by his. Is there more to Snape than meets the eye? Sure- > and I believe that Harry is begining to think so too. Does > Dumbledore know more than he lets on? Yes-definitely, and Harry > knows this too. Is Harry for whatever reason Voldemort's primary > target? Yes- and again, Harry knows this too-but just like us, he > does not know why. Is it necessary for him to know why at this > point? I say no-who knows what effect it might have on Harry? > But if we the reader knew-the series would effectively be over. As >long as Harry is in the dark, so are we. That's what keeps me > reading. This does not mean we cannot have lots of fun trying to > figure things out. I guess what I am saying is this: coming up > with theories is fun-it's what keeps life interesting. But please > do not try and tell me that Harry's importance to the series will > not come till the end of the series-IMO, that just doesn't make > any sense. Again, this is, I think, a confusion between Harry's importance to the *story* that we as readers are reading, and his importance to the world he inhabits. Harry is of prime importance to the *story*. Yes, Marina, it *is* called 'Harry Potter and the...'. And Bugaloo is right, Harry is our Point of View character, and part of the fun is that we mostly only find out about things as Harry does. But that is what both Grey Wolf and I refer to as 'metathinking', and it is regarded as unfair because MAGIC DISHWASHER is a theory constructed from the internal evidence WITHIN the books and is concerned with the world Harry inhabits. It isn't fair to say 'well, the books are called 'Harry Potter', because Snape, Harry, Dumbledore or *anyone* in the books don't KNOW they're in a book called 'Harry Potter and...'. And by the rules of using only internal evidence, I can't use the book title. Or anything else concerned with the reader reading the text. I can only use the text, itself, and support my arguments and counter arguments from within the text. I'm allowed to *interpret* that text, like any historian trying to work out what happened from documents, but I have to support that interpretation with reference to things the characters have said, done or thought within the text. Which is why I say Harry is not currently that important. WITHIN the world he inhabits, he isn't. He's a celebrity (the boy who lived), but Fudge doesn't consult him on questions of policy, Snape tells him he's a nasty little boy and gives him detentions, and Dumbledore has to step in and save his life. Oh, yes, he may turn out to be absolutely of vital importance, the boy who saves the world. But right now, he is not the centre of the world. Voldemort is worried about him, worried enough to *try* and kill him - but right now, Voldemort is probably more concerned about Dumbledore. Rightly so; if Dumbledore drops dead at the beginning of GoF, do you think Harry would have a clue how to go about defeating Voldemort? Grey Wolf has given an extremely good explanation in #45138 of where the 'intelligence war' interpretation comes from; for me it started from the seed of noticing that there are references to 'spies' in CoS, PoA and especially GoF, and that the actions of the DE's reminded me strongly of the terrorist activities that I am sadly familiar with. But I don't think it's an interpretation that the text actually doesn't support - for example, if you can manage to explain why kindly old Dumbledore is practically *laughing* at one of his senior teachers having a near nervous breakdown in Chapter 22 of PoA, *without* recourse to 'Dumbledore is secretly an evil sadist', then you can argue that I'm twisting the text and everything is exactly as it seems. But until then, I'll stick with Snape is acting, which means there must be a reason for him to be acting, which in turn means... ...excuse me, I've just thought of some more canons to wash. :-) Pip!Squeak From pacific_k at hotmail.com Wed Oct 9 23:10:39 2002 From: pacific_k at hotmail.com (pacificlippert) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 23:10:39 -0000 Subject: Metathinking and Why Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45145 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bluesqueak" wrote: > doesn't support - for example, if you can manage to explain why > kindly old Dumbledore is practically *laughing* at one of his senior > teachers having a near nervous breakdown in Chapter 22 of PoA, > *without* recourse to 'Dumbledore is secretly an evil sadist', then > you can argue that I'm twisting the text and everything is exactly > as it seems. But until then, I'll stick with Snape is acting, which > means there must be a reason for him to be acting, which in turn > means... Errr...because it's funny? A thirty-something year old man in the midst of a temper tantrum that would give a three year old pause? How can you not laugh? (I don't consider myself an evil sadist (; but I suppose I might be...). On the other hand, I have never considered it a nervous breakdown, merely a huge tantrum because he was "foiled again!". Karie From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 9 23:48:11 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 23:48:11 -0000 Subject: Why is AK unforgiveable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45146 Chris wrote: >>>I suspect that AK is unforgivable because it is the only (this strikes me as odd, but it seems to fit in-canon) spell that has to be used with deliberate intent to kill. If you use AK, you are going to commit murder anyway. and you know that right from the beginning.<<<< So I write: I always thought AK was an unforgivable curse because it was the only curse that is unblockable. Any other forms of death-by-curse can be avoided. AK cannot. Our hero Harry, even though he is so fast, cannot avoid it as he can the others as evident in the graveyard when he out runs the DE's curses to get to Cedric's body and the TriWizCup. As for Imperius and Crucio, I guess they are unforgivable because they cause so much trouble. Imperius is a headaches for others and MoM, and Crucio drives people eventually insane. Just the impression I had. Melody From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Oct 9 23:57:43 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 23:57:43 -0000 Subject: Metathinking and Why Snape may know what he knows WAS Re: The Gleam Revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45147 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bluesqueak" wrote: > >>> But I don't think it's an interpretation that the text actually > doesn't support - for example, if you can manage to explain why kindly old Dumbledore is practically *laughing* at one of his senior teachers having a near nervous breakdown in Chapter 22 of PoA, *without* recourse to 'Dumbledore is secretly an evil sadist', then you can argue that I'm twisting the text and everything is exactly as it seems. << First off, let's not conflate "losing his temper and shouting wild accusations" with "having a near nervous breakdown." It's true that Fudge wonders if Snape is unbalanced, but then he wonders that about Harry and Hermione, too. It's Fudge's standard explanation for people not behaving the way he expects them to. He even applies it to Dumbledore in GoF. "Insane," whispered Fudge, still backing away. "Mad..." (GoF 36) But as for the scene in PoA : "Fudge, Snape and Dumbledore came striding into the ward together. Dumbledore alone looked calm. Indeed, he looked as if he were quite enjoying himself." If all three of them were facing Harry, then only Harry and Hermione could see the look on Dumbledore's face. The look is a message of reassurance for them, "Don't be afraid, you're not going to get in trouble. " I can see Hermione especially needing that reassurance. She has, after all, just broken a whole raft of wizarding laws and now she's confronted with the Minister of Magic himself and a very angry Snape. Who knows what she might have blurted out? It wouldn't be the first time she took the blame on herself to spare Harry. By the time Snape looks at Dumbledore, there's only a twinkle in Dumbledore's eyes. The message is: "Trust me, I know what I'm doing." Nothing evil or sadistic in that as far as I can see. Pippin From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 10 00:02:39 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:02:39 -0000 Subject: Why Snape may know what he knows WAS Re: The Gleam Revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45148 Marina writes: > Okay, we're using two different definitions of metathinking here. I > think I was confused by the fact that you seemed to be setting > up "meta" and "canon-based" as opposing concepts, which I now see > they're not. You're limiting your definition of "meta" to the "lit- > crit" approach, while I was defining it in more general terms as any > extratextual thinking, in which the reader's interpretation of the > text is filtered through considerations from outside the text. In > the case of the DISHWASHER, the filter is your knowledge and > understanding of the way anti-terrorist campaigns are conducted in > real life. We can call it "external thinking," or some other > suitable name to distinguish it from the lit-crit method. This is a > perfectly valid approach -- I think the DISHWASHER theory is very > well thought-out, even if I disagree with it -- but it's no more > canonically rigorous than the lit-crit approach, or the > philosophical one, or any number of other methods people use to > interpret the text. Hmmm... unfortunately lit-crit tends to provoke strange growling noises from me, but could you possibly explain how a reader is *not* supposed to interpret a text through their own knowledge and understanding? And why this is supposedly less canonically rigorous than interpreting it through, say, Freudian psychology. A reader has to be able to *read*, for a start, which is 'their own knowledge and understanding'. Or if the book is being read to them, they must have, of their own knowledge and understanding, a sufficient vocabulary to understand it. To say the readers interpretation of the text is filtered through considerations outside the text is to basically say that 'this is a book, people read the book, people will use their own experience to understand what they read.' It's a given, it's the basis from which we start. For example: I support my reading of Snape's goading of Harry in PoA Ch. 19 by making reference to his similar behaviour in Ch.14 (where he also goads Harry into losing his temper) and argue that Snape in Ch.19 knows from his previous experience in Ch.14 that insulting Harry's parents will make him lose his temper. That is MORE canonically rigorous than supporting a different reading of Snape's goading of Harry by saying that at this point in the Story it is essential that Harry take independent action and learn that sometimes we have to defy those in authority. The one points to what the characters have said and done in the text. The other uses a theory of what the story is about as its supporting evidence. They are not equally canonically rigorous nor are they on the same level; I can never, however much I argue, say that Snape in Ch.19 had *no* knowledge that insulting Harry's parents would make Harry lose his temper; I *can* argue that Harry's need for independent action is met earlier, or later, or is not needed in PoA at all because the Story is about his growth to manhood, and the independence will come later... > I never said the universe revolved around Harry, I said the *story* > revolved around Harry. Now I suppose you're going to say that by > bringing the concept of story into it I'm indulging in meta- > thinking, but I think that attempting to analyze a literary text > without ever acknowledging that it *is* a literary text is a highly > artificial and pitfall-laden approach. [Rant mode on] Marina, of course I know it's a literary text. It has a cover, and pages, and words printed on the pages; I bought it from the 'fiction' section of the bookshop - these are some of the clues which tell me that it is a literary text. And I pay the entire list the compliment of assuming that I do not *need* to acknowledge that it is a literary text, because they too have picked up on these clues. Far from being 'artificial', assuming that the fact that a literary text *is* a literary text is understood by everyone (other than English Lit professors) and thus requires no acknowledgement within a theory is the beginning point of analysis. [Rant mode off] Of course, a lot of it has > to do with what your goal is. If a theory is intended purely as >an intellectual exercise, then anything goes. Personally, my goal is fun. My secondary goal is to be able to say 'I TOLD YOU SO!' when Book 5, 6 or possibly 7 comes out. [grin] But if you're actually > trying to predict where the story will go, then you have to deal > with the fact that it is a story, not a news report or a > historical chronicle, and examine the literary underpinnings. > You mean that stories follow certain rules, and that an examination of which rules the author is following will allow you to predict where the story will go. Unfortunately, this mostly only works with second-rate writers. The Rules say that Frodo either a)should have died heroically succeeding in his task (theme of courage against certain death) or b)have miraculously survived to a happy retirement (theme of grace) or c) failed completely, with death and despair all round (theme of despair). In fact, Tolkein is a good enough writer that none of these happened - though there were a few chapters where the reader was fooled into thinking it was going to be ending b). > Example: if you were trying to predict the ending of a traditional > cozy British mystery, you would not say "the killer will be the most > likely suspect" or "the killer will be an anonymous drifter with no > connection to anyone in town." That may happen all the time in > real life, but that's not how it happens in cozy British mysteries. Of course, prior to Agatha Christie's cozy British mysteries you would also have said 'the murderer cannot be a small child', 'the murderer cannot be the detective', and so on. I think the only reason she never used 'anonymous drifter' is because it's *so* boring. That's not how it happens ... until a writer decides different. > the HP series aren't quite as genre-bound, but I still don't think > you can just ignore the fact that Harry is the protagonist of the > story, or that free choice, morality and the power of love have >been established as major themes. I'm not. I just think that another major theme is going to turn out to be 'sometimes we have to do things we hate and consider immoral because the alternative is even more evil than the things we have to do'. Morality when it consists of choosing between good and evil is one thing; choosing the 'lesser of two evils' another. The Voldemort war as shown in the books is one where both sides shot to kill, and the supposedly good side imprisoned without trial. Dumbledore may not have had a shoot-to-kill policy, but he uses a truth potion on Crouch Jr. (depriving *him* of free choice and of the right to not incriminate himself) without a second thought.'Lesser of two evils' - he needed that information and he needed it *now*. Many people have said that the final > outcome of the Harry-Voldemort conflict will not depend on who's >the more powerful wizard. I agree with this, and I also think >that the outcome will not depend on which shadowy puppet-master > does a better job of manipulating his pawns. Actually, I'm also one of the people who's said the Harry-Voldemort conflict will not depend on who has the more powerful magic. Nor is Harry a pawn - the MAGIC DISHWASHER plan could have been back to square one in PoA if Harry had decided to say 'kill Pettigrew. What I want is revenge'. Nor am I certain what is so wrong with a strategy that consistently relies on its so-called 'pawns' to do what is brave, good, and true... Pip!Squeak From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Thu Oct 10 00:25:59 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 01:25:59 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Metathinking etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021010003542.00acf1f0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45149 At 22:22 09/10/02 +0000, bluesqueak wrote: >But I don't think it's an interpretation that the text actually >doesn't support - for example, if you can manage to explain why >kindly old Dumbledore is practically *laughing* at one of his senior >teachers having a near nervous breakdown in Chapter 22 of PoA, >*without* recourse to 'Dumbledore is secretly an evil sadist', then >you can argue that I'm twisting the text and everything is exactly >as it seems. But until then, I'll stick with Snape is acting, which >means there must be a reason for him to be acting, which in turn >means... My assumption has always been that he is practically laughing for exactly the same reason why I burst out laughing when I first read that scene. Snape bursts into the room and rants at everyone there demanding an explanation. Dumbledore explains exactly how Harry & Hermione did it, yet Snape dismisses it. Dumbledore is playing the usual trick of misdirection: tell someone what is going on in an outlandish situation, but the other person won't see beyond the fact that it's outlandish and just dismisses it. We all know that outlandish things can happen, but we prefer to dismiss them for the sake of what we believe to be our sanity. I think it's a wonderfully written scene, is perfectly within (obvious) character for all concerned and needs not hide any ulterior motives for anyone involved. I can absolutely see why Dumbledore is amused. In fact, he's already amused as they enter the room (because he knows that everything is under control and much as he trusts Snape, he doesn't see eye-to-eye with him about Harry and likes the idea of Snape disproving his own prejudices with his own eyes). Here's the scene pretty much in full: -- quote -- ... [T]hey heard a distant roar of fury echoing from somewhere above them.... "What was that?" said Madam Pomfrey in alarm. Now they could hear angry voices, growing louder and louder. Madam Pomfrey was staring at the door. "Really -- they'll wake everybody up! What do they think they're doing?" Harry was trying to hear what the voices were saying. They were drawing nearer - "He must have Disapparated, Severus. We should have left somebody in the room with him. When this gets out --" "HE DIDN'T DISAPPARATE!" Snape roared, now very close at hand. "YOU CAN'T APPARATE OR DISAPPARATE INSIDE THIS CASTLE! THIS - HAS - SOMETHING - TO - DO - WITH - POTTER!" "Severus -- be reasonable -- Harry has been locked up --" BAM. The door of the hospital wing burst open. "See here, Snape, be reasonable," said Fudge. "This door's been locked, we just saw -" "THEY HELPED HIM ESCAPE, I KNOW IT!" Snape howled, pointing at Harry and Hermione. His face was twisted; spit was flying from his mouth. "Calm down, man!" Fudge barked. "You're talking nonsense!" "YOU DON'T KNOW POTTER!" shrieked Snape. "HE DID IT, I KNOW HE DID IT-" "That will do, Severus," said Dumbledore quietly. "Think about what you are saying. This door has been locked since I left the ward ten minutes ago. Madam Pomfrey, have these students left their beds?" "Of course not!" said Madam Pomfrey, bristling. "I would have heard them!" "Well, there you have it, Severus," said Dumbledore calmly. "Unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be in two places at once, I'm afraid I don't see any point in troubling them further." Snape stood there, seething, staring from Fudge, who looked thoroughly shocked at his behavior, to Dumbledore, whose eyes were twinkling behind his glasses. Snape whirled about, robes swishing behind him, and stormed out of the ward. -- end quote -- Also note, from the bits of the conversation we can hear from the interior of the infrimary, that it seems that it is an already-ranting Snape who is leading Fudge and Dumbledore there, presumably ideally to prove Harry & Hermione's absence, or at least confront them over what happened. The only reason Snape would need to put on the show (presumably for Fudge's benefit) is because he led him there, and the reason he led them there was to put on the show. This is a causal loop and doesn't make sense of the theory you're trying to prove. Unless you're insisting that he's doing it for *Harry & Hermione's* benefit? Why? To further prove that he hates them? He's given them ample proof of that. To show Fudge that he hates them? To what end? He knows that Harry and Hermione have been through a tough time and need rest. He knows their best friend is in another bed with a broken leg. Yet he insists on storming in and putting on a show. Why? If Snape's outburst was to stop the kids talking about rats, the best thing he could have done was to do nothing at all. If he knew what was going on and was involved in planning it, all he needed to do was to retire to his bedchamber (and stroke his fluffy white kitten) ;-) and leave Dumbledore to explain the situation to Fudge, and the kids to have their rest. Dumbledore had already told H&H to keep quiet about their use of the Time-Turner, so none of that was going to come out, although he knew they'd tell Ron about it, as he was involved at the centre of the action, and Scabbers had been, after all, his pet. Assuming it wasn't Snape who was leading them there, Fudge had absolutely no reason to interrupt the kids in the Infirmary. Even if he did, Dumbledore could have perfectly adequately prevented Fudge from going anywhere near them, at least until he'd managed to tell them not to talk about the Marauders having been Animagi or their Animagus forms (which they woudn't have done anyway). Incidentally, at no stage afterwards does Dumbledore issue them with such instructions, which means that interpreting Snape's outburst in that direction simply becomes a nonsense. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who's not had a chance to read HP4GU for a few days and is trying to catch up again - backwards, as usual :-) From pacific_k at hotmail.com Thu Oct 10 00:31:46 2002 From: pacific_k at hotmail.com (pacificlippert) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:31:46 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy-- The Center of the HP Universe? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45150 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: > Have you ever just thought to yourself that perhaps Draco Malfoy has > more of a *key* part in the Harry Potter book series? No? Oh well, > that's why I'm here to influence you all into believing this little > theory. While I'm sure that someone out there will be writing a much better response, I'm going to forge ahead with my own take on your examples. > All information will be paraphrased the best I can. I'm too lazy to > find the *actual* text and attempt to piece together four books worth > of information > > 1. Ron's friendship with Harry > If Draco hadn't insulted Ron on the train ride during Harry's first > year, then perhaps Ron and Harry wouldn't be such close friends. The > only reason why they became such good friends is because of Draco's > insult toward Ron and Harry sticking up for Ron. They might have > *gasp* remained only acquantinces if this didn't happen. Oh the > horror in that thought =p However, Harry and Ron were on their way to close friendship _before_ Draco showed up in their compartment (SS, p. 99, U.S.): "...Harry found Ron just as interesting as as Ron found him." Harry bought sweets for the two of them, and they spent most of the train ride alone talking. If you must have a catalyst , Hermione showed up before Draco (SS, p. 106), and the boys were united against her over-achieving (; to begin with. In fact, Draco only showed up shortly before the end of the train ride, because Hermione returned just as they left, and the announcement that they were five minutes from the station came shortly after that. (p. 110) > 2. The Hippogriff and Sirius Black > Draco's injury from the Hippogriff caused Buckbeak to be tied up and > almost executed by Walden MacNair, Head of the Disposal of Magical > Creatures. Harry and Hermione were able to save Buckbeak and Sirius > Black because of Buckbeak. If the Hippogriff wasn't tied up, then > Hermione and Harry couldn't have saved Sirius--due to he's too high > off the ground to be rescued. And it's all thanks to Draco's injury. Because the Hippogriffs wouldn't have still been there? (; (a little _gentle_ sarcasm...) If Malfoy hadn't been whining and crying, they would likely have still been studying the Hippogriffs, and they would have had access to them anyway. Do we ever hear what Hagrid did with all the others, anyway? > 3. CoS Dueling Club > If Draco and Harry hadn't dueled with each other, the Snake wouldn't > have come out of Draco's wand-- revealing Harry was a Parseltongue. > This means that Hermione wouldn't have been able to do her research > and Ginny Weasley would have been murdered-- allowing Tom Riddle to > return. (Gosh I would have loved that.. Riddle, YUM). Harry and Ron > were able to save the day all because of Draco's dueling at Dueling > Club. One could rightfully argue that it was _Snape_, who seemingly provided the spell/idea to Draco, _not_ Draco, who was the catalyst there. Or perhaps Lockhart, who frightened the snake. After all, until Lockhart scared it, Harry didn't even try to deal with it, and Snape was merely going to get rid of it. > 4. GoF Rita Skeeter. > By having Draco talking into his hand to the illegal Animagus form of > our "beloved" reporter Rita SKeeter, Hermione was able to figure out > who she really was. This became essential to part of the plot because > all of the lies she caused throughout the fourth book. (ie: Hagrid's > past, Hermione being a Scarlet Woman, and Harry Potter's secret > heartache). Except that Hermione's vendetta against Rita Skeeter had nothing to do with the information Malfoy and Co. fed Rita (Hermione laughed about that), it had to do with the articles about Hagrid--and the important information she used against Hagrid didn't come from the Slytherins-- and with the fact that Rita _herself_ was listening in on conversations. Malfoy's scene with Rita in his hand was only one of several clues Hermione used to decipher the mystery. And Rita's only real importance to the plot was revealing Hagrid, which enables him to later become an emissary to the giants. The slander about Harry might become important later, however we have no reason to believe that Fudge would have believed Harry if the article hadn't been published. He's shown a marked tendency to ignore things before. > 5. Quidditch > All thanks to Neville's remembrall and Draco stealing it, Harry was > able to make the house team. Was this a ploy so that Draco would make > the team the next year and play the same possition? In any case, if > Draco hadn't done that, Harry wouldn't have been made the new seeker > and won the house cup during his third year. Well, Draco _did_ steal the Remembrall, and precipitate Professor McGonagall's intercession on Harry's behalf at that point, however, saying he's the center of the inverse for that is as likely as claiming it revolves around Prof. M . After all...it's thanks to Prof. M that Harry was on the team--_she_ contacted the captain, and _she_ arranged for the broom. You might say that she only did it because of Draco, but since we don't know what the flying lessons entail, we don't know if Harry would have had opportunity to show his talent in class anyway. We have signs that she had seen most of the flying episode, (SS p.151) because she told Wood that Harry had caught the Remembrall after a 50 foot dive. Anyway, the Draco Center of the Universe theory made me laught, at least (: Karie From olivia at serpensortia.com Thu Oct 10 00:34:55 2002 From: olivia at serpensortia.com (olivia at serpensortia.com) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 20:34:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco Malfoy-- The Center of the HP Universe? References: Message-ID: <007b01c26ff4$e027c000$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> No: HPFGUIDX 45151 Karie said: "Because the Hippogriffs wouldn't have still been there? (; (a little _gentle_ sarcasm...) If Malfoy hadn't been whining and crying, they would likely have still been studying the Hippogriffs, and they would have had access to them anyway. Do we ever hear what Hagrid did with all the others, anyway?" I think it's safe to assume that Hagrid teaches all of his classes at least similarly. In Goblet of Fire, Cedric meets up with Harry and Cedric says something to the effect of, "Hagrid's Blast-Ended Skrewts." Cedric is a fifth-year, Harry's a fourth. Obviously Hagrid teaches some of the same things to different years. I think Fyre's main point is that Draco is the go-between on an awful lot of events in the HP-verse. Yes, you can nitpick and say, "Snape provided the spell/idea to Draco," but her very good point is that Draco is *involved* in all of these little episodes. Maybe it's a coincidence, maybe it's all part of Rowling's great plan. I, personally, like your ideas, Fyre. It's definitely something to think about. Olivia :) From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Thu Oct 10 01:12:53 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 02:12:53 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco Malfoy-- The Center of the HP Universe? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021010015853.00972bf0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45152 At 02:44 09/10/02 +0000, Fyre Wood wrote: >Have you ever just thought to yourself that perhaps Draco Malfoy has >more of a *key* part in the Harry Potter book series? No? Oh well, >that's why I'm here to influence you all into believing this little theory. Of course he has a key part. He's Harry's opposite number. :-) I think you exaggerate his role just a little, but I do agree that he (and his dad) are major catalysts of some of the action, or more particularly of the way in which the action pans out. >1. Ron's friendship with Harry >If Draco hadn't insulted Ron on the train ride during Harry's first year, >then perhaps Ron and Harry wouldn't be such close friends. The only reason >why they became such good friends is because of Draco's insult toward Ron >and Harry sticking up for Ron. They might have *gasp* remained only >acquantinces if this didn't happen. Oh the horror in that thought =p Considering Harry and Ron were already getting on extremely well, Draco's role was rather small in cementing their friendship. The fact that Harry and Ron sleep in adjoining beds is probably the single largest factor. In some respects, though, Malfoy's attitude draws H&R closer to *Hermione* rather than to each other. >2. The Hippogriff and Sirius Black >Draco's injury from the Hippogriff caused Buckbeak to be tied up and >almost executed by Walden MacNair, Head of the Disposal of Magical >Creatures. Harry and Hermione were able to save Buckbeak and Sirius >Black because of Buckbeak. If the Hippogriff wasn't tied up, then >Hermione and Harry couldn't have saved Sirius--due to he's too high >off the ground to be rescued. And it's all thanks to Draco's injury. They rescued Buckbeak because he needed rescuing; this was additional to rescuing Sirius. :-) If Buckbeak hadn't needed rescuing, Harry could just as easily have rescued Sirius on his broomstick, if not more easily. >3. CoS Dueling Club >If Draco and Harry hadn't dueled with each other, the Snake wouldn't >have come out of Draco's wand-- revealing Harry was a Parseltongue. >This means that Hermione wouldn't have been able to do her research >and Ginny Weasley would have been murdered-- allowing Tom Riddle to >return. (Gosh I would have loved that.. Riddle, YUM). Harry and Ron >were able to save the day all because of Draco's dueling at Dueling >Club. I'm not so sure about that. Harry's revealing himself as a Parselmouth only served to put him forward as the prime suspect. The Trio would probably have discovered the Chamber, the Diary, etc., even without that. >4. GoF Rita Skeeter. >By having Draco talking into his hand to the illegal Animagus form of >our "beloved" reporter Rita SKeeter, Hermione was able to figure out >who she really was. This became essential to part of the plot because >all of the lies she caused throughout the fourth book. (ie: Hagrid's >past, Hermione being a Scarlet Woman, and Harry Potter's secret >heartache). Draco's involvement in that was only one of many clues which Hermione had followed. Even without that, there were enough other clues to set Hermione on the right track. >5. Quidditch >All thanks to Neville's remembrall and Draco stealing it, Harry was >able to make the house team. Was this a ploy so that Draco would make >the team the next year and play the same possition? In any case, if >Draco hadn't done that, Harry wouldn't have been made the new seeker >and won the house cup during his third year. That's pure speculation. Without the Remembrall sequence, Madam Hooch would still have discovered Harry's flying ability, albeit possibly later on in the year. Perhaps he wouldn't have made the team in the first year, but certainly in the second. >I could go on and on, however Dinner is ready and I need to eat. >Draco is clearly the center of the HP universe. If anyone has any >comments, do reply. Please do go on. :-) Certainly the examples you provided so far don't convince me. :-) -- GulPlum, wondering who else will be proposed as the main character of the story today (cf. MAGIC DISHWASHER thread). :-) From pacific_k at hotmail.com Thu Oct 10 02:14:17 2002 From: pacific_k at hotmail.com (pacificlippert) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 02:14:17 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy-- The Center of the HP Universe? In-Reply-To: <007b01c26ff4$e027c000$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45153 > I think Fyre's main point is that Draco is the go-between on an awful lot of > events in the HP-verse. Yes, you can nitpick and say, "Snape provided the > spell/idea to Draco," but her very good point is that Draco is *involved* in > all of these little episodes. Maybe it's a coincidence, maybe it's all part > of Rowling's great plan. I, personally, like your ideas, Fyre. It's > definitely something to think about. True...Draco is involved in several of the side episodes, but Harry is involved in all of them... which makes him the center of the universe (; And he's had his share of plot moments, certainly, but is his importance in the story (and Harry's life) getting bigger or smaller? I think it's getting smaller...in PoA, he has _no_ effect on Harry. He taunts him about Sirius, but Harry isn't even bothered enough to try and find out why, and Draco has nothing to do with when/ how Harry finds out about Sirius. The twins have a huge role compared to him--after all, without the map, most of the book wouldn't have happened. Draco had a bigger effect on Hagrid, Ron, and Hermione, who spend a good bit of the story (out of sight) working on Buckbeak's defence. In GoF, he as even _less_ effect on anyone. Sure, he feeds nasty information to Rita Skeeter, but the Trio care less about that (and his info drives the plot not at all) than about the fact that Rita is getting a lot of her truly detrimental information personally, and _not_ through the Slytherins. In fact, the only lasting harm done is done by things that Rita heard while "buzzing" around. Draco (and the Slytherins) are the first to parade the buttons, but they have little to no significance-- they fizzle after the first task. So...what else have you got? Karie From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Thu Oct 10 02:26:29 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 03:26:29 +0100 Subject: Magical Talent/Glasses (was Re: Harry's innate abilities) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021010022104.00976e50@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45154 At 14:09 08/10/02 -0400, jodel at aol.com wrote: >Interesting thread, but we've gotten off into a fruitless comparison between >sports and music. No one seems to be carrying the observation back a step to >a point where it makes somewhat better sense. > >Quidditch skills, per se, are probably not inheritible. But those Quidditch >skills are the finished product. You don't start with the finished product, >you start with the ingredients, and those very well might be inherited >tendencies. For example; As the person who started off this train of thought, I've also been very surprised by the turn the discussion has taken. :-) When I said that Harry had "inherited" his flying skills from his father, I had of course meant to imply, as you suggest, that he had inherited certain physical attributes which gave him a head-start in the right direction, rather than the fact that his skill was inherited lock, stock and barrel from James. Besides, every time HP discussions start talking about genetics (usually WRT Magic Ability AKA the Magic Gene), I get very worried. JKR has said that she has never had much of a head for science and so I would never expect any kind of consistent genetic explanation for magical ability in her world. She has a quasi- folkloristic attitude towards inherited traits (allegiances, good/evil, physical attributes, etc) which aren't always borne out by genetics as we understand them. One of the similies used in this thread, apart from sport, has been musical ability. Some of the arguments have considered musical *fame* or musical prodigiousness which I agree are beside the point. However, I myself have always explained JKR's "Magical Ability" and the way it appears as a parallel to basic musical talent. I don't mean the ability to produce million-selling records, I mean something much more basic, such as a musical "imagination" (i.e. the way some people tend to think in terms of sounds, the way others do in terms of visuals or words), perfect pitch, the "natural" ability to play any instrument or the like. Scientists have been unable to determine beyond doubt where these things come from, but it is usual (but by no means universal) for a "musical" parent to have a "musical" child of the same gender. Of course, children who grow up around people who appreciate music tend to appreciate music themselves. An anecdotal example. My own musical tastes are mainly in classical chamber music, and particularly classical guitar (the playing of which is completely beyond my own inherited skill-set!). :-) One of my big musical heroes is John Williams (the guitarist, as opposed to the HP music composer!). He is famous for coming from a musical background and creating musical progeny (a jazz pianist daughter and a violinist son). There are other examples of musical families, such as the Mozarts, the Bachs or the Strausses. Now I'm not saying this is normal. On the contrary, such prodigious talent is quite rare. But having musical parents increases the chances of being musical oneself, even if one doesn't perform professionally. Furthermore, the nature -v- nurture debate is never quite as fierce as it is with musical talent. Nevertheless, even the most skeptical "nurturists" admit that there's something in it. A lot of that is about purely physical attributes (development of the inner ear, bone and muscular structure, etc), huge elements of which are definitely inheritable. At the same time, some musically talented kids crop up in families with no apparent musical skills at all. There is a current example of a 12 year-old clarinet prodigy (whose name temporarily escapes me) who was born to a family of motorcycle mechanics. He was discovered to have perfect pitch when, at the age of six, he insisted to his dad that certain engines didn't "sound right". In the same way, I believe that basic magical talent, although almost guaranteed in the case of magical parents ("Squibs are extremely rare", I think the quote was), can easily, if rarely, crop up in otherwise completely Muggle families. Just as musical talent has, on some levels, a connection with having a specific kind of imagination, an "inner openness" to the world of sound, I believe that magical talent in the Potterverse depends to a certain degree on an "inner openness" to the existence of the magical world, whether one is conscious of it or not. (sorry, I'm rambling. I'll shut up on that topic now.) >A good sense of timing, good hand and eye >coordination probably are. (Not necessarily vision. Both Harry and his father >seem to have had to wear glasses -- or are James's glasses fanon?) James did indeed wear glasses (Mirror of Erised scene). Thank you for reminding me of yet another physical attribute Harry has inherited. Why am I so sure that he inherited it? Anecdotally, "spectacle wearers beget spectacle wearers". More scientifically, the problem for over 80% of UK children who are prescribed glasses is myopia. In the case of boys only, it is well over 90%. The rest are mainly cases of damage to the eyes, optic nerve or brain, at or before birth. Almost universally, myopia is genetic, and especially in the male line (a myopic man's son is 98% likely to be myopic, his daughter is 70% likely). As a personal illustration, in all photos of my immediate 9-person family (parents and me & my siblings), everyone is wearing specs or contacts except for my mum and one of my sisters. I therefore propose that it is safe to assume that Harry is myopic, and he got it from his father. In terms of Quidditch, this gives them an advantage in that they are pretty much guaranteed 20/20 vision, which might not be the case with everyone else on the field (spectacle wearers are much more likely to have their sight examined and corrected than non-wearers). In terms of what Harry inherited from which parent, it is perhaps interesting that whilst he inherited his mother's eye colour, he inherited his father's condition. This may or may not be important. :-) Furthermore, is Harry's physical myopia symbolic of his more general short-sightedness? :-) On the subject of glasses, something else which may or may not prove important is that Percy Weasley wears them (a change in the MTSNBN which I deplore; I understand that Chris Rankin is himself a "four-eyes"!) whilst nobody else in his family does. I've been unable to build a theory around this to date (other than the usual stereotype of "glasses=brainy") but I can't help feeling that they're there for a reason... -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who's written far too much, and most of it is probably too close for OT status for comfort... From olivia at serpensortia.com Thu Oct 10 02:15:03 2002 From: olivia at serpensortia.com (olivia at serpensortia.com) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:15:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco Malfoy-- The Center of the HP Universe? References: Message-ID: <008501c27002$de0043c0$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> No: HPFGUIDX 45155 Karie smugly said: "So...what else have you got? " Ouch. I'd rather call it a draw and walk away. I know when to agree to disagree. You have your view, I have mine, Fyre has hers. Your opinion isn't necessarily canon. Olivia From pacific_k at hotmail.com Thu Oct 10 02:53:46 2002 From: pacific_k at hotmail.com (pacificlippert) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 02:53:46 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy-- The Center of the HP Universe? In-Reply-To: <008501c27002$de0043c0$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45156 Well, I didn't mean to be smug, I honestly would like to know what other evidence there is for your opinion--I can't remember _all_ of the story, and I'm sure there are things I've missed. If my opinion were canon, I'd be rich, lol. Anyway, I'm sorry if I sounded argumentative, I didn't mean to. Karie > Ouch. I'd rather call it a draw and walk away. > > I know when to agree to disagree. You have your view, I have mine, Fyre has > hers. Your opinion isn't necessarily canon. > > Olivia From olivia at serpensortia.com Thu Oct 10 03:02:48 2002 From: olivia at serpensortia.com (olivia at serpensortia.com) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 23:02:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco Malfoy-- The Center of the HP Universe? References: Message-ID: <009501c27009$87874140$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> No: HPFGUIDX 45157 No, you're right, Karie, I misread you and was far too oversensitive. But I do believe Fyre has a valid point that Draco is, maybe not "the center," but definitely always a necessary variable in the equations of Harry's adventures. She offered several great examples of how Draco is part of the cause and how Harry is the effect. I don't think even Harry is the center of his own universe. You could argue that Voldemort is. Harry is the type of person he is because Voldemort killed his parents. What would his world be like if he had been raised by Lily and James and Voldemort never existed? Would Lily and James even be together if Voldemort never existed? Maybe their relationship stems from an alliance against Voldemort. They developed a relationship based on a working relationship. But I do apologize for taking your comments too seriously. Your opinion was just as valuable as mine and everyone else's and I took your comments in a negative tone instead of giving you the benefit of the doubt. Bad me. Olivia, who's off to slam her ears in the oven door. Well, I didn't mean to be smug, I honestly would like to know what other evidence there is for your opinion--I can't remember _all_ of the story, and I'm sure there are things I've missed. If my opinion were canon, I'd be rich, lol. Anyway, I'm sorry if I sounded argumentative, I didn't mean to. Karie From draco382 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 03:29:55 2002 From: draco382 at yahoo.com (draco382) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 03:29:55 -0000 Subject: What DOES Harry want? WAS : Re: Draco Malfoy-- The Center of the HP Universe? In-Reply-To: <009501c27009$87874140$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45158 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., wrote: > I don't think even Harry is the center of his own universe. You could argue > that Voldemort is. Harry is the type of person he is because Voldemort > killed his parents. What would his world be like if he had been raised by > Lily and James and Voldemort never existed? Would Lily and James even be > together if Voldemort never existed? Maybe their relationship stems from an > alliance against Voldemort. They developed a relationship based on a working > relationship. This point just made me wonder...what really is the center of Harry's universe? I know this sounds vague, but I wonder what makes Harry, "the boy who lived" and all that tick? With all the pressure the WW has resting on his 14 year old shoulders, what are Harry's inspirations? Yeah, maybe I'm getting a little too carried away, but I really am amazed at the resiliance Harry has against all this pressure. I guess what I mean is, what is Harry's "north star"? Is it family? acceptance? freedom from his burden? ahh well...I should probably quit rambling and get back to studying...my "north star" is my homework, sadly enough. ~draco382 From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 06:18:03 2002 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 06:18:03 -0000 Subject: Fidelius Charm In-Reply-To: <20021004214453.13238.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45159 Just for the record, the description of the Fidelius Charm in the Lexicon is somewhat vague and doesn't necessarily quote the books exactly. When I wrote it, I didn't do as much careful research as I should have and I didn't spend a lot of time trying to write a completely accurate description. It should be rewritten to be more clear. So if it comes down to a debate, by all means consider the Lexicon to be in error. I'll put a revision on my to-do list (unless someone wants to write up a nice description for me and save me some work!) Steve Lexicon From potter76 at libero.it Thu Oct 10 10:19:13 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:19:13 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: Scarlet Woman/ Snape and Quirrellmort Message-ID: <3DA55421.000003.28727@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 45160 I'm sorry to come up with something completely alien to the discussions going on but reading one of the posts I remember that, when I came across it in GoF, I couldn't understand the expression 'Scarlet Woman'. I got the impression it was some kind of joke or pun, but to understand the implication of that definition I need your 'assistance' as English mother-tongues. Thank you to anyone who will help.! And now something probably more to the point and that could fit in the MAGIC DISHWASHER discussion. As a former DE and one with the Dark Mark burned into himself, which is a connection to LV, Snape shouldn't have felt LV presence at Hogwarts, especially when dealing with Quirrell? What's more, during that year LV was getting stronger, even if not much, by drinking unicorn blood, shouldn't the Dark Mark have shown this as it does later in GoF ( I can't recall if it was Snape or Karkaroff who said that the Mark had been getting clearer every day)? AFAIR, there's nothing in canon to support this, but it adds to the conspiracy theory', Snape knew but did nothing about it because he was working on a far more ambitious plan. OTOH, LV should be aware, if not completely sure, of on which side Snape is because he was there when Snape threatened and tried to stop Quirrell. If he trusted him he could have revealed himself to his old follower and ask him to help getting the Stone. But it seems it never happened, so Snape needs to be a really good actor if he wants LV to accept him back with complete trust now that he's back. I don't like the idea of LV being fooled so easily, I have too much respect for his intelligence and cunning. Dumbledore's big plan is very subtle so LV could very well not see that his action are more the result of someone else's will than his own. But unless he comes up with a very good story I can't see how LV will believe to the return of 'poor, misguided by Good Snape'. One final though, I like very much MAGIC DISHWASHER but I feel it's way too complex for children and , even though the books are not exclusively aimed at them still, JKR knows that a big part of her readers are quite young ( not for long, anyway, if she waits a little more to publish book 5 - may it be part of her plan? To wait till everyone is old enough to appreciate the MAGIC DISHWASHER?). And wouldn't it be horrible to discover that our hero has been 'used' and raised with almost the sole purpose of giving his blood to the 'right cause'? If i were Harry I would feel cheated, and after 10 years deprived of love to find finally people who cares for me and then discover that they did because they 'needed' me would be devastating. Everything I had come to believe in and everyone I trusted and loved would seem false and hollow, just empty lies. Isn't it something terrible to give children? R. From alina at distantplace.net Thu Oct 10 12:32:12 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:32:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Scarlet Woman References: <3DA55421.000003.28727@i3a2c5> Message-ID: <000901c27059$0fdf7c20$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45161 > I'm sorry to come up with something completely alien to the discussions > going on but reading one of the posts I remember that, when I came across it > in GoF, I couldn't understand the expression 'Scarlet Woman'. I got the > impression it was some kind of joke or pun, but to understand the > implication of that definition I need your 'assistance' as English > mother-tongues. Thank you to anyone who will help.! > R. "Scarlet Woman" means prostitute or an adulteress. I guess it comes from "scarlet letter" a brand for adulteresses. Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 02/08/2002 From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Oct 10 13:00:45 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:00:45 -0000 Subject: Why is AK unforgiveable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45162 Melody wrote: > I always thought AK was an unforgivable curse because it was the only > curse that is unblockable. Any other forms of death-by-curse can be > avoided. AK cannot. Our hero Harry, even though he is so fast, > cannot avoid it as he can the others as evident in the graveyard when > he out runs the DE's curses to get to Cedric's body and the > TriWizCup. > > As for Imperius and Crucio, I guess they are unforgivable because > they cause so much trouble. Imperius is a headaches for others and > MoM, and Crucio drives people eventually insane. > > Just the impression I had. > > Melody I've exposed my own theory on unforgivables a couple of times now, but the last time was quite some time ago, so I think I'll indulge myself and bring it back. For one thing, there is canon. Crouch!Moody more or less tells the class that unforgivable is (*almost*) a legal definition: an unforgivable curse is one that anytime it is used on another human being (I'd imagine that would also aply to other intelligent beings) will earn you a life imprisonment in Azkaban. As simple as that. And, at this particular moment, there are three curses that are considered unforgivables: AK, Imperius and Cruciatus. Now, the point is, of course, what makes these curses so bad that they earn the calification of unforgivables? At that point, all theories could aply, but in my particular case, I am with you (partially), Melody, in that they are unblockable -but in my case, it's the *three* of them. Let me explain my position with some canon. Our first stop is the unforgivables lesson. Moody, talking about what he's supposed to teach them, talks about the original plan being only the counter-curses, that they weren't going to know about forbidden curses until last year. That is our first clue: how can you learn a counter-curse of a curse you don't know about? Logic implies that, to know the cure, you'd better learn before what the cure *will* cure (that is, learn to recognise the symptoms of the sickness). It somehow points that there are no countercurses for the forbidden curses. Later on in that same lecture, when talking about AK, Moody mentions another important fact: "there is no counter-curse. Nor way of intercept it. Only one person is known to have survived it" (incidently, this is not totally true: Voldemort survived the AK too. It's an interesting pararell, since Harry is the boy who lived and Voldemort the man that didn't die). Now, I know that could only aply especifically to AK, but later we discover that they practise *resisting* the Imperius, never to block it. And we never hear of any of them practising anything against the Cruciatus. Now, a final stop in canon before aunching into the explanation. When Ron and Hermione are helping Harry practice for the third task, one of the spells Harry uses is a shield spell, which is uposed to stop curses. So such spells do, in fact, exist. And those are the premises. I believe that all curses can be blocked by the correct shield (allowing for things like relative power of the casters, amount of punishment taken by the shield so far, etc.). All except the unforgivable curses, which is what makes them so dangerous: if the ray hits you, you receive the spell. There is nothing you can do to prevent that. Of course, there are things you can do *after* being hit by one (except if that one was AK, in which case you're out of options): you can ride the storm in the Cruciatus, and you can fight the Imperius, but you cannot do a single thing to stop them from hitting you. And that, in a nutshell, is what makes them unforgivable. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Oct 10 13:08:54 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:08:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Scarlet Woman/ Snape and Quirrellmort Message-ID: <150.159303dd.2ad6d5e6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45163 In a message dated 10/10/2002 12:54:37 GMT Standard Time, potter76 at libero.it writes: > I'm sorry to come up with something completely alien to the discussions > going on but reading one of the posts I remember that, when I came across > it > in GoF, I couldn't understand the expression 'Scarlet Woman'. I got the > impression it was some kind of joke or pun, but to understand the > implication of that definition I need your 'assistance' as English > mother-tongues. Thank you to anyone who will help.! > 'Scarlet woman' is a term for a prostitute, or promiscuous woman. It's probably Biblical in origin, coming from Revelation (xvii, 1-6) where the woman dresed in scarlet and purple is overtly a reference to Babylon ("Mother of Harlots" amongst other things), covertly probably a reference to Rome. > > > And now something probably more to the point and that could fit in the > MAGIC > DISHWASHER discussion. > As a former DE and one with the Dark Mark burned into himself, which is a > connection to LV, Snape shouldn't have felt LV presence at Hogwarts, > especially when dealing with Quirrell? What's more, during that year LV was > getting stronger, even if not much, by drinking unicorn blood, shouldn't > the > Dark Mark have shown this as it does later in GoF ( I can't recall if it > was > Snape or Karkaroff who said that the Mark had been getting clearer every > day)? AFAIR, there's nothing in canon to support this, but it adds to the > conspiracy theory', Snape knew but did nothing about it because he was > working on a far more ambitious plan. The reappearance of the Dark Mark seem to have coincided with Voldemort regaining corporeal form. When Snape apparently starts to notice it on GoF, Voldemort has gained his 'ugly baby' form and it is as that body, cared for by Pettigrew and nourished by Nagini is getting stronger that the Dark Mark also gets stronger. When his body is properly restored, then the Mark assumes its full appearance. We have discussed in the past whether or not Snape *may* have felt something right at the beginning of PS/SS when Harry's scar burns at the banquet and whether that was one of the things that put him on to Quirrell. But we don't have any of that uncontrollable gripping of left forearms or anything, so I guess that if he did feel anything it would only have been a twinge. > > OTOH, LV should be aware, if not completely sure, of on which side Snape is > because he was there when Snape threatened and tried to stop Quirrell. If > he > trusted him he could have revealed himself to his old follower and ask him > to help getting the Stone. <> But unless he comes up with > a very good story I can't see how LV will believe to the return of 'poor, > misguided by Good Snape'. I could try to answer that, but I won't! These days, when this issue comes up, I point people in the direction of Porphyria's comprehensive analysis and unified theory of Snape/Quirrellmort encounters, Message # 41072, which shows that the door is still open. > > > One final though, I like very much MAGIC DISHWASHER but I feel it's way too > complex for children and , even though the books are not exclusively aimed > at them still, JKR knows that a big part of her readers are quite young ( > not for long, anyway, if she waits a little more to publish book 5 - may > it > be part of her plan? To wait till everyone is old enough to appreciate the > MAGIC DISHWASHER?). Now we know what the delay is! ;-) And wouldn't it be horrible to discover that our hero> > has been 'used' and raised with almost the sole purpose of giving his blood > to the 'right cause'? If i were Harry I would feel cheated, and after 10 > years deprived of love to find finally people who cares for me and then > discover that they did because they 'needed' me would be devastating. > Everything I had come to believe in and everyone I trusted and loved would > seem false and hollow, just empty lies. Isn't it something terrible to give > children? I think I rather agree with you. I do think that the approach to morality in these books *is* very complex and that JKR wouldn't compromise her own views because these are "children's" books. (No, I know they're not, Penny!) But I agree, that given that she does convey complex issues which are not always on the surface of the books, it would seem out of place for there to be such an unwelcome message of distrust hidden within the action. Is it a message she would want to convey to her own children? I think not. OTOH, it does seem that there are difficult issues of destiny, purpose and free will to be sorted out as the series progresses. If it is Harry's destiny, or becomes his purpose to defeat Voldemort, a purpose he willingly shoulders, then the adults concerned can be seen as working with that destiny or purpose, rather than simply using him. They are all part of a much larger picture. Eloise When I am dead, I hope it may be said: 'Her sins were scarlet, but her posts were read' (After Belloc) If only life were that interesting! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Oct 10 13:42:46 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:42:46 EDT Subject: Voldemort and AK (was:Re: Why is AK unforgiveable) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45164 In a message dated 10/10/2002 14:02:45 GMT Standard Time, greywolf1 at jazzfree.com writes: > Later on in that same lecture, when talking about AK, Moody mentions > another important fact: "there is no counter-curse. Nor way of > intercept it. Only one person is known to have survived it" > (incidently, this is not totally true: Voldemort survived the AK too. > It's an interesting pararell, since Harry is the boy who lived and > Voldemort the man that didn't die). Crouch/Moody double speak again, eh? I'm not sure that they are exactly parallels, though it makes a nice contrast. Did Voldemort survive the AK? What hit him was a rebounding AK, one moreover that had rebounded off *Harry*, so we can't be certain that the same thing would have happened if he had been hit straight by one. Secondly, his body *didn't* survive the AK. As for his soul....well, it seems to be implied that Voldemort didn't die because he was no longer human enough to die. Granted, Hagrid is the first person to articulate this, which doesn't give it too much credence, but I think the implication is elsewhere as well. The Unforgivables are specifically curses which are used on *humans* (oh - and spiders!). But you get my drift. They're probably not designed to be effective on evil overlords who've *improved* themselves and possibly already gone some way down the path to immortality. So young Barty spoke the truth again, didn't he? Harry is the only *person*, the only fully human person, fully to have survived the AK, but inhuman Voldmort also survived a rebound, despite his body's death. Now, I know that could only aply > > especifically to AK, but later we discover that they practise > *resisting* the Imperius, never to block it. And we never hear of any > of them practising anything against the Cruciatus. I don't think he could have got away with actually *torturing* students in class, though. Do you? But I'm nit picking there, because I also belong to the 'Unforgivables are Unblockables' school of thought. A question that arises is, how vulnerable is Voldemort now? *Could* an AK work on him, now he has a body again, or is he still too inhuman? If he *can* be AK'd, why is Harry so crucial to his defeat? Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Oct 10 13:44:43 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:44:43 -0000 Subject: Snape and Quirrellmort/MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: <3DA55421.000003.28727@i3a2c5> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45165 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita" wrote: > And now something probably more to the point and that could fit in > the MAGIC DISHWASHER discussion. > As a former DE and one with the Dark Mark burned into himself, which > is a connection to LV, Snape shouldn't have felt LV presence at > Hogwarts,especially when dealing with Quirrell? What's more, during > that year LV was getting stronger, even if not much, by drinking > unicorn blood, shouldn't the Dark Mark have shown this as it does > later in GoF ( I can't recall if it was Snape or Karkaroff who said > that the Mark had been getting clearer every day)? AFAIR, there's > nothing in canon to support this, but it adds to the conspiracy > theory', Snape knew but did nothing about it because he was working > on a far more ambitious plan. I hadn't actually considered that fact before, but it helps explain something that has been in my mind for a few days now. MAGIC DISHWASHER is based on an information war, which in turn requires spies. Now, in PS, Voldemort was going solo most of the time, and if he did contact Lucius to put in motion the Diary idea, I think it would have been later on, from Hogwarts (after testing the defenses of the stone). There is really no room for a spy that could've tipped off Dumbledore about Voldemort's return and plans. So, how did Dumbledore know that Voldemort was trying to make a come-back, and thus that he needed to get the stone to the safest place possible? The answer, of course, is that the mark in Snape's arm had been giving them signals all along. Voldemort was getting closer, and was getting stronger too thanks to the nurture of Quirrell. As soon as they realised that Voldemort was coming back to the country (it's not as if you could pin-point the location of Voldemort by a very faint mark in someone's arm), they decided to move the stone to Hogwarts, just in case. Now, remember that during PS Voldemort is extremelly weak. Which means that the mark wouldn't be all that obvious, even if Voldemort was in the school. Quirrell doubted that Voldemort could face an 11 year-old. And he didn't even have a body. That's *very* weak, which means that the mark would've been almost invisible. And that would give Dumbledore very little information, apart from a few faint ideas. > One final though, I like very much MAGIC DISHWASHER but I feel it's > way too complex for children and , even though the books are not > exclusively aimed at them still, JKR knows that a big part of her > readers are quite young (not for long, anyway, if she waits a little > more to publish book 5 - may it be part of her plan? To wait till > everyone is old enough to appreciate the MAGIC DISHWASHER?). First things first: that argument you've used there is metathinking. Which I hate, especially when used for or against MAGIC DISHWASHER, as I think I've made abundantly clear by now. I do not bother myself with higher planes of existance (i.e. who the books are aimed at) when discussing the theories merits, but there is one thing I want to say: the books are *not* written for children. JKR wrote them aiming at herself, at something that would please *her*. The fact that 100 million people seem to have the same tastes, and that most of them are children, means nothing. And if you think MAGIC DISHWASHER is inapropiate for children, you should read again the Graveyard Gathering scene and the death of Cedric "Spare" Diggory. *That's* scary. Also, staying far from the theory itself, I have to point out that books can be read in several different levels by different people. You don't have to understand all the levels to like or understand the book (or at least that's what my literature teacher used to say to me). So, children can read the adventures of Harry Potter while the adults read the subtle interactions between the adult characters (read the "deep" discussions on this list for a taste of that). If MAGIC DISHWASHER proves to be true (objective number 2, as Pip said), it won't be spelled out as such: it will have been working in the background, and giving the books realism. But in the end, Harry will have beaten Voldemort and you won't really have to understand how he got there to enjoy it. > And wouldn't it be horrible to discover that our hero has been 'used' > and raised with almost the sole purpose of giving his blood to the > 'right cause'? If i were Harry I would feel cheated, and after 10 > years deprived of love to find finally people who cares for me and > then discover that they did because they 'needed' me would be > devastating. Everything I had come to believe in and everyone I > trusted and loved would seem false and hollow, just empty lies. Isn't > it something terrible to give children? > > R. Now, this is something I can relate to: it discusses Harry's feelings and his role in the events to come. Now, I first want to make clear that MAGIC DISHWASHER (or at least my version) makes no pretence of unraveling the future, just tries to wring sense out of the past. However, your question is valid. And can be answered logically from past events. I don't think that Harry's role in MAGIC DISHWASHER is over after giving his blood for the potion. The main reason for this is the events that go on in PS: the different defenses of the stone were almost engineered to prepare Harry for tasks ahead. After all, defenses that an 11-year-old could surpass are not that good idea against someone capable of breaking, entering and leaving Gringotts, ar they? And the last defence is especially revealing: a defense *only* an 11-year-old could break. Then, there are those comments about Dumbledore *allowing* Harry to prepare, and other such events. It definetely looks like Dumbledore is preparing Harry for something, and that that something has to be more than being a doll-like prisoner that allows his blood to be taken (which really doesn't need that much preparation; in fact, the less preparation the better). Besides, I, like Pip, don't understand what's so wrong with being the "pawn". It's the pawn that, in the end, becomes the hero, *even in chess*. The pawn is one of the most important pieces, because it is useful both at the very begining and at the very end of a chess match: if a pawn reaches the other side, he bacomes a queen, the most powerful piece in the game. And I think (outside any theories, and indulging in meta-thinking) that the same thing will happen to Harry: in the end, he will be the "queen" of Dumbledore's side, and it will be thanks to *his* powers that they will win. I don't see what's wrong with that. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Oct 10 13:52:53 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:52:53 -0000 Subject: What DOES Harry want? WAS : Re: Draco Malfoy-- The Center of the HP Universe? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45166 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "draco382" wrote: > > This point just made me wonder...what really is the center of > Harry's universe? I know this sounds vague, but I wonder what makes Harry, "the boy who lived" and all that tick? With all the pressure the WW has resting on his 14 year old shoulders, what are Harry's inspirations? Yeah, maybe I'm getting a little too carried away, but I really am amazed at the resiliance Harry has against all this pressure. I guess what I mean is, what is Harry's "north star"? Is it family? acceptance? freedom from his burden? > Well, your point made me wonder-how much actual pressure is Harry under? In GoF, he is definitely in a fight for his own survival-but I do not think he sees himself as being responsible for anyone elses safety- he does hold himself responsible for Cedric's death. IMO, at this point, I do not believe he is seeing himself as the "saviour" of the WW. At some point in the future, perhaps, he will begin to understand himself better-realize he may have abilities that are suited to battle Voldemort sucessfully. He definitely has a strong sense of responsiblity to his friends-to the school/Dumbledore-but does he really see himself as being significant to the survival of the WW? I just do not think so. IMO, this is what makes his actions more heroic-the fact that he is acting on his own volition-not seeing himself as a 'saviour'. As for his inspirations, IMO, I believe having a normal family life would be at the top of his list-but right now, following GoF, his top priority would be survival. bugaloo37 From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 14:05:05 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:05:05 -0000 Subject: Scarlet Woman/ Snape and Quirrellmort In-Reply-To: <3DA55421.000003.28727@i3a2c5> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45167 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita" wrote: Rita said: > ... I couldn't understand the expression 'Scarlet Woman'. ..., > but to understand ... I need your 'assistance' ... bboy_mn replies: The explanations by others pretty much tells you what you need to know. But I will add a slight expansion of the 'scarlet letter'. During a very repressive/oppressive time in American History around the time of the Salem witch trials, women who were accused by Adultery were made to wear a large red letter 'A' as a punishment and a form of public humiliation. In most cases, these women were convicted in the court of public opinion. And it's not clear what happened to the man involved, I'm guessing his friends took him down to the Pub and bought him a beer.;) > ... Snape shouldn't have felt LV presence > at Hogwarts, especially when dealing with Quirrell? What's more, > during that year LV was getting stronger, even if not much, by > drinking unicorn blood, shouldn't the Dark Mark have shown ... bboy_mn: I'm agree with Eloise, the appearance of the Dark Mark seems to concide with LV gaining physical form. Rita continues: > OTOH, LV should be aware, if not completely sure, of on which > side Snape is because he was there when Snape threatened and > tried to stop Quirrell. If he trusted him he could have revealed > himself to his old follower and ask him to help getting the Stone. > bboy_mn adds: I'm splitting hairs here, but I don't think it was a matter of LV trusting or not trusting Snape, it was a question of not knowing if he could trust Snape. If he revealed himself and got it wrong, the whole plan was blown. Rather than take the chance, he thought it was wiser to leave Snape for some other time and concentrate on Quirrel and the Stone. In the graveyard scene in GoF, in what we assume is a reference to Snape, LV say something to the effect 'one who I *believe* has left me forever' (not an exact quote but close enough). That statement seems to imply some small element of doubt. It seems to imply that he is making an assumption. Just a thought. bboy_mn From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Oct 10 14:23:15 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:23:15 -0000 Subject: Why Snape may know what he knows WAS Re: The Gleam Revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45168 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marinafrants" wrote: > Now, the HP series aren't quite as genre-bound, but I still don't think you can just ignore the fact that Harry is the protagonist of the story, or that free choice, morality and the power of love have been established as major themes. Many people have said that the final outcome of the Harry-Voldemort conflict will not depend on who's the more powerful wizard. I agree with this, and I also think that the outcome will not depend on which shadowy puppet-master does a better job of manipulating his pawns. > I could not have said this better myself. IMO, we must never lose our focus as readers-we should not lose sight of those themes mentioned above: free choice, morality, and the power of love. Another theme mentioned by JKR herself can be tied in with these: that is equality-freedom from predjudice that purposely blinds itself to the merits of others based on their heritage. IMO, free choice is the center of it all- you choose what road to take, you choose who to love. Its all up to you. I too believe that in the end, Love will conquer Voldemort-not power. bugaloo37 From millergal8 at aol.com Thu Oct 10 16:30:24 2002 From: millergal8 at aol.com (millergal8 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:30:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Scarlet Woman/ Snape and Quirrellmort Message-ID: <1a6.9fdce56.2ad70520@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45169 Hm, can anyone back me up because I seem to remember a teacher saying the term could have come from colonial America. The first settlers were extremists in that they regulated even what colors one could wear. People wearing colors other than black or gray were considered weird. I had always thought that the term came from simply one prostitute favoring the color red, being labled a scarlet woman, and the name simply stuck. The other theories seem to make more sense, I was just wondering if anyone else had thought this. Oh, and by the way, don't worry that you didn't know the meaning of this phrase. I used it jokingly a few weeks back and even my best friend (who is american and speaks only english) didn't have a clue what i was saying ;) Christy From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Oct 10 17:06:21 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:06:21 -0000 Subject: Magical Talent/Glasses (was Re: Harry's innate abilities) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021010022104.00976e50@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45170 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: > > In the same way, I believe that basic magical talent, although almost guaranteed in the case of magical parents ("Squibs are extremely rare", I think the quote was), can easily, if rarely, crop up in otherwise completely Muggle families. Just as musical talent has, on some levels, a connection with having a specific kind of imagination, an "inner openness" to the world of sound, I believe that magical talent in the Potterverse depends to a certain degree on an "inner openness" to the existence of the magical world, whether one is conscious of it or not. > I completely agree with the above statements. IMO, it fits right into what I consider to be a major theme of the series: free will/ or the right to choose. In other words, possessing an "inner openness" ( I really like this phrase!!) would not necessarily be enough to guarantee magical talents-but it would allow you to at least consider magic possible. Choosing to hone this ability would be strictly up to you. bugaloo37 From debmclain at yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 15:58:30 2002 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie McLain) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:58:30 -0000 Subject: Upcoming Deaths re:44107 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45171 Hi everyone! Yes, I am a newbie and have not responded, although I have wanted to, because I wanted to do my research around the site first. Also, you are all intimidating with your knowledge and talk like Ph.D's. :-) I found message 44107 to be very interesting. When I came aboard, most people were talking about Ron possibly dying in the next book. Yes, the great JK Rowling has said book 4 was the beginning of the deaths, and one death in particular, later in the series, was going to be very difficult for people. I think that the difficult death will be Dumbledore, possibly in the last chapter of the series. He has helped Harry so many times, and the final time will result in his death (possibly to save Harry). As for all the people thinking Ron will die in OoP, the "romance" between he and Hermione is just starting to bloom. I don't think JK would spend so much time developing that storyline just to kill it in the next book. Personally, I think Neville may be one of the next ones. He is, in some degree, a major character. He helped them win the house cup in HPSS. In GoF, you learn about his parents and their fate. Again, I don't think JK would spend time on these subjects, for no reason whatsoever. She has something planned for Neville. As for the plural "deaths", I think the Death Eaters will begin their next killing spree, killing all and any in their way, wizards and muggles. Most will be nameless faces to us, but some will affect us more deeply. Just my thoughts. -Debbie who has a son born the night she finished GoF, born with a mark curiously on his forehead....but daddy refused to name him Harry. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Oct 10 17:07:53 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:07:53 -0000 Subject: DISHWASHER Objection Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45172 I've just been re-reading some of the old Dishwasher posts, and I'm wondering... If Dumbledore knew all about the re-embodiment potion, planned that Voldemort would use it and knew that Voldemort would be vulnerable once he had used it, why didn't he plan to hit Voldemort as soon as he came back? All Dumbledore had to do was have an agent keep a secret watch on the graveyard. Dobby would be ideal. He can conceal himself and and he can transport himself instantly to Hogwarts. Dobby could have reported to Dumbledore as soon as the re-embodiment was begun. Then, as Voldemort rose from his cauldron, naked, unsuspecting, unarmed and unprotected but for Pettigrew, Dumbledore himself along with any other trusted members of the Old Crowd could have portkeyed to the graveyard and disposed of Voldemort for good. The only reason I can think of for Dumbledore not to plan this would be that if the agent were discovered, it might have made Voldemort suspicious of the potion. But the agent could have been provided with a cover story very easily, since Little Hangleton was also the site of Frank Bryce's disappearance. Pippin From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 15:39:57 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:39:57 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy-- The Center of the HP Universe? In-Reply-To: <009501c27009$87874140$9ca2e3d8@agstme.adelphia.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45173 Olivia Wrote: > > But I do believe Fyre has a valid point that Draco is, maybe not "the > center," but definitely always a necessary variable in the equations of > Harry's adventures. She offered several great examples of how Draco is part > of the cause and how Harry is the effect. Fyre Wood (ME) Replies: I didn't mean to cause so much controversy... infact I think that's the first post I've started here in awhile. Had I known this was going to cause this much controversy, then I wouldn't have posted it. ::runs to her four-post bed in the Slytherin Dorm Rooms to hide under the sheets until this topic dies:: On the other hand, I did come up with another one of those really cool word things: DITCH PUGS! Draco Is The Center-of Harry Potter Universe--Go Slytherin! (I needed an ending, and thus thought that perhaps a little house pride wouldn't hurt anyone hehe) I'll come up with some more of those theories on Draco when I have more time. --Fyre Wood From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Oct 10 16:13:58 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:13:58 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and AK (was:Re: Why is AK unforgiveable) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45174 Eloise wrote: > A question that arises is, how vulnerable is Voldemort now? > *Could* an AK work on him, now he has a body again, or is he still > too inhuman? > If he *can* be AK'd, why is Harry so crucial to his defeat? > > Eloise The potion he took made him mortal once again, so if Harry (or an upward-mobile DE) had hit him with an AK as soon as he came out of the cauldron, he'd probably have died right there on the spot. Now, what are the most probable movements by Voldemort? I think it's a safe bet that he'll use whatever methods to inmortality he tried before (one, at least, worked, after all). At that point, he *will* be back to his old position (15 years later, of course. That time difference will prove to be crucial, if you ask me. But then again, I like MAGIC DISHWASHER). Speaking of which, if you are a follower of MAGIC DISHWASHER, there is one more thing you have to consider: the potion Volodemort used was flawed, and it will, in the end, prove to be one of the reasons for his downfall - or at least that seems to be Dumbledore's plan. How Harry is involved in this, I haven't the faintiest idea. He probably will, since Dumbledore is training him for something, but what that task might be has not yet been revealed (or it has but I've missed all the signs). Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From ronib at mindspring.com Thu Oct 10 17:23:09 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:23:09 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Missing Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45175 Veronica stumbles into the street from a dark, narrow passage way, muttering to herself, "It wasn't there? Why wasn't it there?" Catching the robe of the first person to walk by, she demands madly, "Why wasn't it there?" The young woman eyes her warily, then pulls away from the clutching grip, and hurries away. Veronica crumbles into a heap against the side of the nearest building, and watches sadly as people pass, not even seeing her. "Can I be of assistance?" asked a warm voice suddenly. "You look lost." Veronica looked up into a pair of warm, smiling brown eyes, and allowed their owner, a kindly-looking old man with a small, grey owl on his shoulder, to help her to her feet. "I searched everywhere," she answered. "First I checked every vessle in Theory Bay, but it wasn't there. So then I searched Inish Alley-- thinking surely I would find it there, but it wasn't?" "What wasn't there?" asked the man patiently. "The THEORY!" she answered. "Elkin's THEORY! It's a wonderful theory-- have you heard it? Arthur Weasley was a victim of the Imperius curse years ago--it explains so much!" "Yes, I have heard that theory," answered the old man, with a knowing nod of his head. "Do you mean it was not to be found in the Alley?" "No," Veronica answsered sadly. "I went looking for it, hoping to help take up the banner, but it was not there anywhere." "Perhaps you should contact Elkins, and see why this theory was not in the Alley," he suggested. "You may use Apus, if you wish, and you might also see why there is no vessel in the Bay for those who subscribe to this wonderful theory." So Veronica took up a quill and parchment offered by the kind old man, and wrote the following message: "Elkins, I have searched the both Theory Bay and Inish Alley in search of a banner I might follow to show my support of the idea that Arthur Weasley was so horrendously controlled by He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named and his henchmen through the unforgivable use of the Imperius Curse. Alas, I can find no such banner to wave or follow without conceding to the idea of missing children. Why is there no Acronym for this beautifully subtle theory? No DARE DEVILS - Dear Arthur Ruthlessly Enslaved by Death Eater Villains to Instigate Lamentable Situations, or LAW CAMERA - Lovable Arthur Weasley Controlled And Manipulated by Evil Riddle Anagram? Will there one day be such a vessel sailing proudly through the bay? Veronica" She tied the note around the small owl's leg, and turned to thank her helpful new friend, but he was gone, and she was left to continue her search. From debmclain at yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 16:12:57 2002 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie McLain) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:12:57 -0000 Subject: Why LV must kill Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45176 I tried finding this in the archives, but it is difficult to look up, so please forgive me. What is everyone's opinion on "Why must LV kill Harry" when he was only one-year old? It seems to me in the canon, unless I interpreted it wrong, that LV's intention was to kill Harry all along, not necessarily the parents. As heard by Harry in PoA, James tries to stop LV, trying to let Lily escape with Harry. I know all are in agreement about Lily letting herself die to protect Harry, but didn't James do the same? IMHO, it seems somewhere out there it is known/written that LV's downfall will result from Harry. It seems the centaurs from HPSS know something about it too. Answers, are appreciated. -Debbie From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Oct 10 18:33:10 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:33:10 -0000 Subject: Snape's "Real" Problem Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45177 IMO, after re-reading the Shreiking Shack for the third time last night, I have decided that who Snape has a "real" problem with is Dumbledore. Here are the issues they do not ("seemingly") agree on: 1) what to do with Harry when he breaks the rules; 2) the hiring of Lupin; and the 3) the acceptance of Sirius. Dumbledore's decisions on these issues cause Snape a great deal of distress-they do not however prevent him from backing up Dumbledore to Fudge on the resurrection of Voldemort- showing Fudge the Mark on his arm, IMO, was a bold move. In fact, it was at this point in the series that my suspicions regarding Snape took a firm hold. He seems to disrespect Dumbledore's handling of certain things-but apparently has little or no problem with his role as leader(he apparently followed Dumbledore's order at the end of GoF-whatever it was) IMO, this is most curious-and leads to all kinds of speculation. I suppose this is why I and others spend so much time trying to figure this guy out. bugaloo37-who simply loathes Snape-but is still curious about him. From obby at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Oct 10 16:00:49 2002 From: obby at blueyonder.co.uk (Richard Thorp) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:00:49 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why is AK unforgiveable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <190272930015.20021010170049@blueyonder.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 45178 Thursday, October 10, 2002, 12:48:11 AM, Melody wrote: M> As for Imperius and Crucio, I guess they are unforgivable because they M> cause so much trouble. Imperius is a headaches for others and MoM, M> and Crucio drives people eventually insane. Hi all, list newbie here :) I would have thought that they were illegal for the very reasons that the actions they perform are illegal.. As someone said, AK is premeditated murder, cruciatus is plain torture/assault. Imperius on the other hand doesn't have a paralell, but I would have thought that anything that aims to control someones mind would be a Bad Thing :) Someone else mentioned about Voldemort, and if he could be AK'ed... I would guess that even if he could, the "good guys" wouldn't do it, because it is stooping to Voldemorts level... To draw a real world paralell it would be like decrying the use of landmines, and then planting them yourself. Hope that wasn't a bad first post, hehe :) -Rich ------------------- www.mindchanger.net msn: obbles at hotmail.com ------------------- From heidit at netbox.com Thu Oct 10 19:03:43 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:03:43 -0400 Subject: When is AK "necessary"? In-Reply-To: <190272930015.20021010170049@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <004f01c2708f$d9dbf360$3701010a@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 45179 > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Thorp [mailto:obby at blueyonder.co.uk] > Someone else mentioned about Voldemort, and if he could be > AK'ed... I would guess that even if he could, the "good guys" > wouldn't do it, because it is stooping to Voldemorts level... > To draw a real world paralell it would be like decrying the > use of landmines, and then planting them yourself. However, in GoF, Sirius points out that during Voldemort's first reign of terror, Mr Crouch obtained authorisation for aurors to use unforgivable curses. He also says that Moody didn't kill unless it was necessary. Of course, that implies that when it was necessary, Moody did kill Death Eaters (and possibly others as well). So where does that put the dividing line? Heidi From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Oct 10 19:24:50 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:24:50 -0000 Subject: Why LV must kill Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45180 Debbie McLain wrote: > I tried finding this in the archives, but it is difficult to look up, > so please forgive me. > > What is everyone's opinion on "Why must LV kill Harry" when he was > only one-year old? It seems to me in the canon, unless I interpreted > it wrong, that LV's intention was to kill Harry all along, not > necessarily the parents. As heard by Harry in PoA, James tries to > stop LV, trying to let Lily escape with Harry. > > I know all are in agreement about Lily letting herself die to protect > Harry, but didn't James do the same? > > IMHO, it seems somewhere out there it is known/written that LV's > downfall will result from Harry. It seems the centaurs from HPSS know > something about it too. > > Answers, are appreciated. > > -Debbie Hi, Debbie, and don't let yourself be devoured by yahoomort! I've experienced myself the utter terror of having to look somehting up in the archives, and I know what it feels like (normally it is useless, unless you've read the post you are looking for). I'll try to give you a run-down on the theories on the matter, and then my own personal version. First, canon seems to point that Voldemort was looking for James and Harry ("Your mother needn't have died" and "Out of the way, woman"). This has multiple explanation: it may be because of some prophecy Voldemort heard saying that the Potter family would destroy him (aka the heir theories, especially the "heir fo Gryffindor" theory). There are multiple variations to this one. Or it might be that he was only taunting Lily (leaving her for later, for example). There are no good theories I can remember for this one, and it's based on the fact that evil overlords lie for no particular reasons and like to be cruel (i.e. forcing a mother watch her baby die). Or it might be that he wanted Lily alive if she wasn't too much of a bother (normally as a reward for one of his loyal henchmen, normally Peter, for having turned them in). Finally, maybe he was only going for Harry (again due to some prophecy, which tends to be the first true prophecy of Trelawny), and James dared to confront Voldemort, so he had to die, but since Lily was in histerics, Voldemort was saving his own power for the baby. Or some combination thereof. Most of the variations modify mainly the intent of Voldmort and the number of planned murders that night. My own version is: Vodemort had heard that the Potters were working on something that might destroy him. He assumes (or learns) that it is the reason they went into fidelius charm in the first place, and contacts his insider to try and find were they are. In fact, he knows that James and Lily had a proyect each, but having heard that Lily's was studying ancient magic, he decides that she would never find anything worth using (those spells are dead for a reason, he thinks), and concentrates on James' proyect. This proyect, however, seems much more dangerous: James is trying variations of spells on Harry, trying to protect him, and hopefully find a defense against the unforgivables (this might include some variation of the elixir of life). The nature of the experiments is really irrelevant, since he didn't have time to finish them. Lily, on the other hand, *had* found something that could protect Harry: an ancient spell that channels pure love into a love shield which is suposed to protect the recipient from evil curses. Unfortunately, the spell requires a human sacrifice, since the caster looses his life in proyecting his or her love -which is the reason it was forgotten in the first place: to sacrifice one to save another (just from one or two curses!) is really a bit excesive, especially from the point of view of the defended, who wouldn't want to loose a loved one only for a protection! Thus, Voldemort has his loyal servant Peter take him to the Potter's house, with an intent: to destroy James, thus ending the dangerous investigation, and also kill the baby, which could be used to resurrect the investigation, after all. Oh, and let Lily live (if she doesn't try to get too much in the way)... is not as if she's doing something useful. I should mention that I believe that this sort of thing had happened before: anytime Voldemort heard that someone might be plotting his death outside Dumbledore's protection, he sent one of his DE to finish them or, in cases were the enemies were too powerful (like James and Lily), he took the matters into his own hands. So, off he went. Peter guides him to the house, points him to James and the Fidelius is broken. James wips out his wand while Lily runs to get Harry. James is sumarly AKed, and Voldemort glides after Lily, in time to see her in what looks like hysterism (but is really casting the love spell, since she knows she'll never make it out alive). Voldemort tries to get her out of the way, which he manages, and shoots his AK. Lily finishes her spell by throwing herself in the path of the AK, thus compleating the love sacrifice spell and protecting Harry. Voldemort tries to AK the baby, just to have the spell rebound in the newly created shield. Things here get tricky, of course. We're not sure if the explosion was caused by the rebound or by hitting Voldemort. I'd say that the second looks more correct, since there wasn't a single trace left of Voldemort's body, when we know that wizards bodies tend to be quite tough; it looks more likely that Voldemort's body exploded, but that's still open to modification. And that's *my* version, Debbie. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who has managed to let yet another post grow out of control From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Thu Oct 10 19:43:04 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:43:04 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why LV must kill Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021010202421.009d26e0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45181 At 16:12 10/10/02 +0000, Debbie McLain wrote: >What is everyone's opinion on "Why must LV kill Harry" when he was >only one-year old? It seems to me in the canon, unless I interpreted >it wrong, that LV's intention was to kill Harry all along, not >necessarily the parents. As heard by Harry in PoA, James tries to >stop LV, trying to let Lily escape with Harry. Like you, I've not looked through the archives, mainly because I assume that there are as many theories as there are people on this list; I generally avoid discussing this topic, as it's one of the Big Mysteries (if not THE Big Mystery) at the heart of the series, and all guesses are as valid as all others. These range from "Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor" through "the Potters were using Harry in magical experiments to fight Voldemort" to "Trelawney's First Prediction said that Harry would cause Voldemort's downfall" (none of which are mutually exclusive, I would point out) and presumably many others. At different times I subscribe to any or all of them, but generally I expect that the one most likely to be true is the Trelawney's First Prediction one (JKR has said that it's important and there must be a very good reason she's not told us what it was), although I can't make my mind up just what the First Prediction actually said. >I know all are in agreement about Lily letting herself die to protect >Harry, but didn't James do the same? Not in the same way. As I've said before, on this list and others, the unique point about Lily's death is that Voldemort very specifically and deliberately wasn't interested in killing her. He actually was prepared to spare her, having killed her husband and preparing to kill her son. Contrast this with the order to "kill the spare" in GoF: Voldemort really doesn't care whom he kills and seems to think nothing of casting an "extra" AK or two. Yet there was something about his intent to kill James and Harry which put Lily into a different category. Yes, I know there are theories that Voldemort had a thing for Lily and specifically wanted to save her (as in, some people would suggest that he was prepared to actively defend her for reasons of his own), but I don't subscribe to those. For me, the important thing for him at that time was to kill James and the baby Potter. Lily was extraneous to his needs and he simply didn't think about her. It is Lily's refusal to accept Voldemort's bargain which created the "sacrifice", which I personally feel was all that was needed to save Harry. James was a deliberate target and thus wasn't in a position to offer himself as a sacrifice. Of course, we're back to square one: why did Voldemort want to kill James and Harry? :-) As far as I'm concerned, there is something special about the Potter bloodline, but what that is remains to be seen. -- GulPlum, absolutely sure that this subject has cropped up several times before but can't find anything in the HPFGU mega-FAQ about it... From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 10 19:55:45 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:55:45 -0000 Subject: Why LV must kill Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45182 Well, there's a lovely little theory explaining why Voldemort killed Harry and wanted to spare Lily. From Hypothetic Alley... --------------------------------- An even more appalling Ewww variant (once dubbed "Even Ewwwer") proposes that Voldemort wanted Lily for himself "for strategic reasons." [34,945, 34,955] "The 'Even EWWWWWWWer' Theory, for those who've lost track, posits that Voldemort was willing to spare Lily's life because he'd heard some vague prophecy about how Lily's son would win the war for his father's side. [Voldemort] planned to get rid of Harry and make Lily bear him a new son, thus turning the prophecy to his own advantage; when Lily would have none of this, he decided to kill her and Harry both, and it's at that point that the prophecy bit him on the ass in the way most prophecies do." [35,541] ----------------------------------- And although it's nothing to do with why he wanted to get rid of Harry... -------------------------- By far the most grotesque of the Ewwww theories, "So EWWWer It's In the SEWWWer," proposes that Voldemort did indeed briefly contemplate sparing Lily's life so that he could keep her all to himself, but not so that she could bear him an heir, or anything useful like that. Nope. No, he just plain wanted her. [35,015] This variant requires no further explanation. -------------------------- As for me, I'm sticking with the ordinary "Trelawney's first prophecy said Harry was a danger" with a side-helping of "TEWW EWW to be TREWW": the Peter Pettigrew version i.e. Voldemort had promised Lily to Peter. Eileen From sublime_muffin at yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 19:01:45 2002 From: sublime_muffin at yahoo.com (Dania Strong) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:01:45 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Future romantic sub-plots. In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021007110846.00988a40@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45183 I really hope that JK fleshes out some more romantic storylines in the coming novels. I actually like the idea of Harry vieing with Ron for Hermione's affections. It might sound a bit soap-opera-ish but it goes along with what JK has said so far about Harry Potter being loosely based on the King Arthur. I hope it is remains 'loosely' based on the King Arthur tales,...if you know what I mean;) Their are some roads I would hate to see them go down story-wise. The Harry-Ginny sub-plot does look interesting in that regard, however. :) From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Oct 10 18:51:13 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:51:13 -0000 Subject: DISHWASHER Objection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45185 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > I've just been re-reading some of the old Dishwasher posts, and > I'm wondering... > > If Dumbledore knew all about the re-embodiment potion, > planned that Voldemort would use it and knew that Voldemort > would be vulnerable once he had used it, why didn't he plan to hit > Voldemort as soon as he came back? > > All Dumbledore had to do was have an agent keep a secret > watch on the graveyard. Dobby would be ideal. He can conceal > himself and and he can transport himself instantly to Hogwarts. > Dobby could have reported to Dumbledore as soon as the > re-embodiment was begun. > > Then, as Voldemort rose from his cauldron, naked, > unsuspecting, unarmed and unprotected but for Pettigrew, > Dumbledore himself along with any other trusted members of > the Old Crowd could have portkeyed to the graveyard and > disposed of Voldemort for good. > > The only reason I can think of for Dumbledore not to plan this > would be that if the agent were discovered, it might have made > Voldemort suspicious of the potion. But the agent could have > been provided with a cover story very easily, since Little > Hangleton was also the site of Frank Bryce's disappearance. > > Pippin Dumbledore didn't know when the re-embodiment would take place. From Peter's comments we can tell that they were pretty much ready to use the potion in the summer between years 3 and 4, but that "for reasons of his own" Voldemort decided to wait for Harry to be teleported to him. Between the conversation were Frank was killed and the GG (Graveyard Gathering) almost a year passes. During that time, Voldemort was bidding his time very close to the graveyard (and I'd imagine that Nagini was even closer... I've always had the feeling that Nagini was out surveilling the area before she arrives and sees Frank). Any agent sent by Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to pass undetected for such a long time. Besides, the gathering didn't necessary have to happen in the graveyard: Peter could have sneaked in with a shovel, take a sample and left, and any agent around wouldn't have dared follow him (and if he did, he'd soon join Frank in death, whatever excuse he would use). And, of course, Dumbledore cannot risk that Voldemort starts asking questions about the potion. He wants him to use it by making it the easiest option (as if he knew nothing about it). Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 10 20:24:48 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:24:48 -0000 Subject: DISHWASHER Objection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45186 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: > Dumbledore didn't know when the re-embodiment would take place. From > Peter's comments we can tell that they were pretty much ready to use > the potion in the summer between years 3 and 4, but that "for reasons > of his own" Voldemort decided to wait for Harry to be teleported to > him. Between the conversation were Frank was killed and the GG > (Graveyard Gathering) almost a year passes. During that time, Voldemort > was bidding his time very close to the graveyard (and I'd imagine that > Nagini was even closer... I've always had the feeling that Nagini was > out surveilling the area before she arrives and sees Frank). How much of his time was spent at the Riddle House, though? He tells Peter that they will be leaving soon, and indeed they do, going to Crouch's house. That's where I think Voldemort was for a good deal of time. Then, Crouch escapes, and it's no longer safe to stay there. So where to next? While the Riddle House seems like a reasonable place to turn to, it's also a dumb place to go. Dumbledore figures out that there's a Voldemort connection there, and Voldemort should be able to figure out that Dumbledore will make that connection. Is there anything in the text to indicate Voldemort did go to the Riddle House after Frank Bryce was killed? I don't have GoF with me here, but doesn't the Eagle Owl in Harry's vision go to a large old house on a hill i.e. the Riddle House? Because if there is, I would say that we're back to the "Evil Overlord Mentality" that Pip has been trying to demolish so successfully. Under MAGIC DISHWASHER, Dumbledore may have reasons to leave Voldemort alone at the Riddle House, but Voldemort cannot know that. > Any agent sent by Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to pass undetected > for such a long time. Besides, the gathering didn't necessary have to > happen in the graveyard: Peter could have sneaked in with a shovel, > take a sample and left, and any agent around wouldn't have dared follow > him (and if he did, he'd soon join Frank in death, whatever excuse he > would use). And, of course, Dumbledore cannot risk that Voldemort > starts asking questions about the potion. He wants him to use it by > making it the easiest option (as if he knew nothing about it). Why didn't Voldemort send Peter to do just that? Again, it seems like Evil Overlord Behaviour, gathering all his followers outside in a Muggle graveyard, right beside the house where Dumbledore thinks he has been to recently. And if Voldemort behaves like an Evil Overlord in these things, what does that say about the rest of his behaviour in the graveyard? Is it really as fiendishly clever as Pip so convincingly argues it is? Or is he just an Evil Overlord flaunting the Evil Overlord Rules? Eileen From sgarfio at yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 20:39:13 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why LV must kill Harry? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021010202421.009d26e0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <20021010203913.55419.qmail@web21401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45187 Debbie McLain wrote: > What is everyone's opinion on "Why must LV kill Harry" when he was > only one-year old? And GulPlum replied: > These range from "Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor" ... This has probably been answered before. If, indeed, Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor, which I think is likely, why did the Sorting Hat try to put him in Slytherin? The Sorting Hat was Godric Gryffindor's own hat; surely the hat would recognize a decendant (ancestor?) of its original owner. Or possibly "heir" is not necessarily being used in the blood sense - Harry could be Gryffindor's heir *by designation*, either by Godric himself in conjunction with a prediction, or through the generations by the previously designated heir (Dumbledore?). But again, why would the Sorting Hat not recognize this? Any thoughts? Old posts I should be reading? Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Thu Oct 10 21:02:22 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:02:22 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DISHWASHER Objection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021010215109.0096ccc0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45188 At 20:24 10/10/02 +0000, lucky_kari wrote: >And if Voldemort behaves like an Evil Overlord in these things, what >does that say about the rest of his behaviour in the graveyard? Is it >really as fiendishly clever as Pip so convincingly argues it is? Or is >he just an Evil Overlord flaunting the Evil Overlord Rules? I'm not so sure whether Pip is all that convincing. :-) I don't have the time to go through MAGIC DISHWASHER (of whatever variety) and argue its points in turn, but my major problem with the theory with it is that in order to give Voldemort a reason to be a Clever Evil Overlord, it needs to make Dumbledore into little more than a Good Overlord (if such a stereotype existed). IOW, Dumbledore manipulates the people at his command (especially Harry!) in a callous and methodical way which I find utterly distasteful and well outside the frame of the "moral compass" (was that JKR's phrase, or is it just mine?) he's meant to be. It also completely undermines his insistence on the importance of making choices - under MAGIC DISHWASHER, nobody actually makes any choices, they're just playing out Dumbledore's Master Plan. If course, I can already see the DISHWASHERs' rationale to undermine that: Dumbledore's insistence on the importance of free choice is nothing more than a front, and his *actual* point is just the opposite. I can't argue with that reasoning other than to say that it seems just as much of a cop-out as the "it's all a dream" theory we were talking about a few days back. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who washes his own dishes without the need for magic or electric machinery. :-) From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu Oct 10 21:04:29 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:04:29 +0000 Subject: [HP4Grownups]Who Else? (FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45189 Who Else? (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Who's Next?_ by Tom Lehrer) Listen to a Midi here: http://members.aol.com/quentncree/lehrer/whosnext.htm Dedicated to Coriolan (Look! Lehrer Midis!) First Harry's gonna die, that's understood Fighting for the side of good Will others also die? We can only guess Shall we go down through the list? Who else? Dumbledore is old and wise That archetype *always* dies Then Harry Potter's best friend, Ron In the game of life, he's just a pawn Who else? Lupin no doubt is a marked man Slain by Wormtail's silver hand Snape he is as good as dead "He'll be killed, of course," Voldemort said Who else? Hagrid's gonna get it, too Massacred by You-Know-Who Then there's our pal Neville He will also be killed "Horrible to write," Rowland said When the time comes, we better be prepared Who else? Then there's the rumor, a fan'll die So that means Creevey or Dobby How about McGonagall? What the hell, let's kill 'em all! Who else? Who else? Who else? Who else? -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From psychomaverick at hotmail.com Thu Oct 10 21:04:06 2002 From: psychomaverick at hotmail.com (psychodudeneo) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:04:06 -0000 Subject: Why LV must kill Harry? In-Reply-To: <20021010203913.55419.qmail@web21401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45190 > > This has probably been answered before. If, indeed, Harry is the Heir of > Gryffindor, which I think is likely, why did the Sorting Hat try to put him in > Slytherin? The Sorting Hat was Godric Gryffindor's own hat; surely the hat > would recognize a decendant (ancestor?) of its original owner. Or possibly > "heir" is not necessarily being used in the blood sense - Harry could be > Gryffindor's heir *by designation*, either by Godric himself in conjunction > with a prediction, or through the generations by the previously designated heir > (Dumbledore?). But again, why would the Sorting Hat not recognize this? Any > thoughts? Old posts I should be reading? > Harry and Voldemort's traits were mixed up during the failed AK incident. Thus, Harry has some of Voldemort's personality traits and abilities (talking to snakes). Since Harry has part of the Heir of Slytherin's "essence" in him, it's only natural the hat would consider putting him in there. From heidit at netbox.com Thu Oct 10 21:12:36 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:12:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why LV must kill Harry? In-Reply-To: <20021010203913.55419.qmail@web21401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00b001c270a1$c28ef6f0$3701010a@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 45191 > -----Original Message----- > From: Sherry Garfio [mailto:sgarfio at yahoo.com] > This has probably been answered before. If, indeed, Harry is > the Heir of Gryffindor, which I think is likely, why did the > Sorting Hat try to put him in Slytherin? The Sorting Hat was > Godric Gryffindor's own hat; surely the hat would recognize a > decendant (ancestor?) of its original owner. Or possibly > "heir" is not necessarily being used in the blood sense - > Harry could be Gryffindor's heir *by designation*, either by > Godric himself in conjunction with a prediction, or through > the generations by the previously designated heir > (Dumbledore?). But again, why would the Sorting Hat not > recognize this? Any thoughts? Old posts I should be reading? The thing is, in CoS, nobody said, "Wait! Harry cannot be the Heir of Slytherin! He is in Gryffindor!" when the students were whispering that he must be the heir because he spoke Parsletongue. A reasonable conclusion is that heir-ship doesn't mean that one will be in one house or the other, because if it did, then the fact of Harry being in Gryffindor should've been enough for people like Ernie MacMillain. The hat, it seems, looks for qualities - and Harry's also got a bit of Slytherin's heir in him, as a bit of Riddle!Voldemort became part of Harry when the curse backfired back in 1981. Hence, if he is the heir of Gryffindor, then he's now got a bit of both in him. Heidi http://www.fictionalley.org From obby at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Oct 10 19:40:33 2002 From: obby at blueyonder.co.uk (Richard Thorp) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:40:33 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] When is AK "necessary"? In-Reply-To: <004f01c2708f$d9dbf360$3701010a@Frodo> References: <004f01c2708f$d9dbf360$3701010a@Frodo> Message-ID: <30286114250.20021010204033@blueyonder.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 45192 Thursday, October 10, 2002, 8:03:43 PM, heiditandy, wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Richard Thorp [mailto:obby at blueyonder.co.uk] >> Someone else mentioned about Voldemort, and if he could be >> AK'ed... I would guess that even if he could, the "good guys" >> wouldn't do it, because it is stooping to Voldemorts level... >> To draw a real world paralell it would be like decrying the >> use of landmines, and then planting them yourself. h> However, in GoF, Sirius points out that during Voldemort's first reign h> of terror, Mr Crouch obtained authorisation for aurors to use h> unforgivable curses. He also says that Moody didn't kill unless it was h> necessary. Of course, that implies that when it was necessary, Moody did h> kill Death Eaters (and possibly others as well). h> So where does that put the dividing line? h> Heidi I would have said it's the same distinction as terrorists and soldiers.. The Aurors were soldiers/police, designed to protect against Dark stuffs. The DE's and such, on the other hand, can be closestly (is that a word? :) linked to terrorists, with their indiscriminate use of force... I expect there would have been debate about allowing the use of the unforgivables by the Aurors.. even the wizard world must have its left wingers :) -Rich www.mindchanger.net Richard Thorp msn: obbles at hotmail.com From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 10 20:41:16 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:41:16 -0000 Subject: DISHWASHER Objection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45193 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > > All Dumbledore had to do was have an agent keep a secret > > watch on the graveyard. Dobby would be ideal. He can conceal > > himself and and he can transport himself instantly to Hogwarts. > > Dobby could have reported to Dumbledore as soon as the > > re-embodiment was begun. > > Any agent sent by Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to pass undetected > for such a long time. Besides, the gathering didn't necessary have to > happen in the graveyard: Peter could have sneaked in with a shovel, > take a sample and left, and any agent around wouldn't have dared follow > him (and if he did, he'd soon join Frank in death, whatever excuse he > would use). And, of course, Dumbledore cannot risk that Voldemort > starts asking questions about the potion. He wants him to use it by > making it the easiest option (as if he knew nothing about it). I think that Dobby (pippin's suggested candidate) could pass undetected pretty much indefinitely. House elves are small, good at keeping thimselves hidden, possess a powerful magic of their own, and can Apparate even within anti-apparition wards. I'm sure he could successfully follow Pettigrew from the graveyard, or at the very least alert Dumbledore that Peter has picked up some bone of father and left. Even if we accept the idea that the WW's most powerful wizard (and most cunning anti-terrorist spymaster) is absolutely incapable of setting up prolonged surveillance in a spot where he *knows* a major world-changing event is going to take place, Pippin's objection raises the question of what, exactly, Dumbledore is planning to do when Voldemort goes through with the potion. Having an elaborate advance plan leading to Vodlemort's re-embodiment only makes sense if a) you have some way of knowing when it happens; and b) you plan to actually *do* something specific when it happens. And whatever it is, you have to do it fast, since an embodied Voldemort is an immediate danger not just to Harry, but to the entire WW. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Thu Oct 10 21:27:42 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:27:42 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why LV must kill Harry? References: <00b001c270a1$c28ef6f0$3701010a@Frodo> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45194 ""Wait! Harry cannot be the Heir of Slytherin! He is in Gryffindor!" when the students were whispering that he must be the heir because he spoke Parsletongue. A reasonable conclusion is that heir-ship doesn't mean that one will be in one house or the other, because if it did, then the fact of Harry being in Gryffindor should've been enough for people like Ernie MacMillain." Just an idle thought, but the major nazis looked nothing like their ideal. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: heiditandy To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 10:12 PM Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Why LV must kill Harry? > -----Original Message----- > From: Sherry Garfio [mailto:sgarfio at yahoo.com] > This has probably been answered before. If, indeed, Harry is > the Heir of Gryffindor, which I think is likely, why did the > Sorting Hat try to put him in Slytherin? The Sorting Hat was > Godric Gryffindor's own hat; surely the hat would recognize a > decendant (ancestor?) of its original owner. Or possibly > "heir" is not necessarily being used in the blood sense - > Harry could be Gryffindor's heir *by designation*, either by > Godric himself in conjunction with a prediction, or through > the generations by the previously designated heir > (Dumbledore?). But again, why would the Sorting Hat not > recognize this? Any thoughts? Old posts I should be reading? The thing is, in CoS, nobody said, "Wait! Harry cannot be the Heir of Slytherin! He is in Gryffindor!" when the students were whispering that he must be the heir because he spoke Parsletongue. A reasonable conclusion is that heir-ship doesn't mean that one will be in one house or the other, because if it did, then the fact of Harry being in Gryffindor should've been enough for people like Ernie MacMillain. The hat, it seems, looks for qualities - and Harry's also got a bit of Slytherin's heir in him, as a bit of Riddle!Voldemort became part of Harry when the curse backfired back in 1981. Hence, if he is the heir of Gryffindor, then he's now got a bit of both in him. Heidi http://www.fictionalley.org Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From paul.richmond at motorola.com Thu Oct 10 21:16:56 2002 From: paul.richmond at motorola.com (Richmond Paul-ra9250) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:16:56 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why LV must kill Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45195 --- GulPlum wrote: > As I've said before, on this list and others, the > unique point about Lily's death is that Voldemort very specifically and > deliberately wasn't interested in killing her. He actually was prepared to > spare her, having killed her husband and preparing to kill her son. I know this is incredibly non-bangy, but maybe Voldemort was just extremely sexist. He didn't want to kill Lily because: A. He thinks it's unchivalrous to kill women. There are some things even a dark lord hesitates at! B. He thinks women are "not a threat" and therefore it's safe to leave her alive. -Paul From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Thu Oct 10 21:50:32 2002 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:50:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sorting Hat/ Voldemort's compitence/ Request for opin... Message-ID: <95.24455f9f.2ad75028@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45196 In a message dated 9/30/02 10:17:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rvotaw at i-55.com writes: > I don't think she'll do this, though I admit it is a possibility. But what > fun is a book series if when it ends it is simply over? It would be a > cruel > joke played on the rest of the world. "Gotcha, you thought this boy really > had quite an adventure didn't you? Guess what, it was just a dream! Ha > ha!" Nope, can't do that to the readers who have so FAITHFULLY waited for > these books. I do think there is the slightest possibility that Harry > could > wake up in the cupboard, still at the age of eleven, go to the door to get > the mail, flip through it, and find a letter addressed to "Mr. Harry > Potter, > the cupboard under the stairs." Turn it over, Hogwarts seal on the back. > So, was it all prophetic? Will it come true? Will it be different now? > Hmm? Okay, I know this is so late to be replying, but I've been busy major. I'm of the opinion that Harry can die. How? Harry, in a big battle with the Dark Lord sees the green flash coming and knows that AK will kill him. Just as it hits him, he wakes up in his cupboard under the stairs. Did you ever have one of those dreams where you're falling and you wake up just before you hit the ground? That's what I picture Harry having. Then, Harry will find the letter. Which leaves him wondering, is that what will happen? Will he die a hero's death? Maybe he won't get trapped this time. Or maybe he'll be trapped forever in a circle of living his Hogwarts life and then going back until he does it "right"...... ~*~*~Talia Dawn~*~*~ (aka Oryomai) "When he walked out of the jungle, his diamonds were chock full of pants!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 10 21:55:18 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:55:18 -0000 Subject: What's Wrong With Metathinking? (WAS:Why Snape may know what he knows ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45197 Let me say in advance that I buy lots of "I Want You To Die Mr. Potter" or whatever it's called these days, and very little of SPYING GAMES. However, I love both these theories. They make my head ache, 'tis true, but they're very nice. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bluesqueak" wrote: > Hmmm... unfortunately lit-crit tends to provoke strange growling > noises from me, but could you possibly explain how a reader is *not* > supposed to interpret a text through their own knowledge and > understanding? And why this is supposedly less canonically rigorous > than interpreting it through, say, Freudian psychology. I think it's obvious that we interpret a text through our own knowledge and understanding. However, I think that metathinking is an important part of that knowledge and understanding. > For example: I support my reading of Snape's goading of Harry in PoA > Ch. 19 by making reference to his similar behaviour in Ch.14 (where > he also goads Harry into losing his temper) and argue that Snape in > Ch.19 knows from his previous experience in Ch.14 that insulting > Harry's parents will make him lose his temper. That is MORE > canonically rigorous than supporting a different reading of Snape's > goading of Harry by saying that at this point in the Story it is > essential that Harry take independent action and learn that > sometimes we have to defy those in authority. I think you would have to assume that "canonically rigorous" can only refer to a treatment of the characters in the story as real people. > The one points to what the characters have said and done in the > text. The other uses a theory of what the story is about as its > supporting evidence. True, but where does the theory of what the story is about come from? Canon, that's where. One doesn't sit down and say "MAGIC DISHWASHER is out b/c the book's genre does not permit it" without having decided what the genre is from having read the book and observed how closely it sticks to the genre's rules. In other words, metathinking can be as canonically rigorous as anything else. For example, in this recent discussion, MAGIC DISHWASHER supporters have been arguing from Snape's CANON actions. People who disagree with MAGIC DISHWASHER have been arguing from what the story is about, giving examples from CANON. >They are not equally canonically rigorous nor > are they on the same level; I can never, however much I argue, say > that Snape in Ch.19 had *no* knowledge that insulting Harry's > parents would make Harry lose his temper; I *can* argue that Harry's > need for independent action is met earlier, or later, or is not > needed in PoA at all because the Story is about his growth to > manhood, and the independence will come later... You are right that the limits on metathinking are not as strict as the limits on discussing a canon incident. However, that does not mean no limits exist. If someone comes to the list with the idea that there will be no deaths in the following books b/c the Harry Potter series is obviously a children's comedy, the limit on acceptable metathinking will kick in pretty quickly. We would challenge them rightly to show what in canon leads them to believe that Harry Potter is a children's comedy, what precludes death in a children's comedy, and how they reconcile this theory with what's already happened in the series. These questions are all rooted in the text itself: canon. They will most probably not have answers.... Unless it Elkins, of course. But should someone come up with answers rooted in canon, then I would say we would have to accept their opinion as canonically rigorous. As canonically rigorous as if they had come to their opinion by analysing Voldemort and Dumbledore's stated wishes on the subject of killing people. (And of course, such a theory wouldn't stand up for a second under any method of examination. It's just an example. :-) > [Rant mode on] > Marina, of course I know it's a literary text. It has a cover, and > pages, and words printed on the pages; I bought it from > the 'fiction' section of the bookshop - these are some of the clues > which tell me that it is a literary text. > > And I pay the entire list the compliment of assuming that I do not > *need* to acknowledge that it is a literary text, because they too > have picked up on these clues. Far from being 'artificial', assuming > that the fact that a literary text *is* a literary text is > understood by everyone (other than English Lit professors) and thus > requires no acknowledgement within a theory is the beginning point > of analysis. > [Rant mode off] I too think it is dangerous not to pay attention to the fact that this is a literary text. I also think it's dangerous to dismiss out of hand English Lit. professors. Otherwise why am I paying them so much money for this degree? :-) I'll give an example of where you have to take into account that the book is a book, written in a certain place, in a certain time, in a certain culture, and a certain genre. Beowulf Now, a lot of people have had a lot of fun with Beowulf. MAGIC DISHWASHER sort of fun. They've come up with some lovely theories. You see, there's this character named Unferth who dislikes Beowulf. They get a bit snippety with each other early on in the story. Beowulf ends up completely humiliating Unferth. Then, at the crucial point in the story, when Beowulf is about to plunge down into the depths of the sea to enter the lair of the monster Grendel's mother, Unferth offers Beowulf his sword Hrunting. Hrunting comes to a quick end against Grendel's mother and Beowulf ends up killing Grendel with a blade he finds in the cave: "ealdsweord eotenisc," that is "old sword of giant make." That blade pierces through Grendel's mother. Her blood then melts the blade. (If it sounds familiar, this is the inspiration for the climax of BOOK V of the LotR.) Well, naturally, there's a temptation to say Unferth gave Beowulf a faulty sword so that Beowulf would fail. And people have had a lot of fun saying it. But you have to remember that this is a text written in a time when that sort of plot twist wasn't employed. That when the Beowulf poet goes on and on in the sword's praise, it's not really possible that he's tongue-in-cheek reporting Unferth's clever machinations. That's just not how it works. That's metathinking. And it's completely valid. Most metathinking isn't as conclusive as that, of course. When it comes to a book like Harry Potter, no one right solution is going to appear, but the solutions that do appear through metathinking are valid and canonically rigorous. > Personally, my goal is fun. And MAGIC DISHWASHER is fun, no doubt about that. >My secondary goal is to be able to > say 'I TOLD YOU SO!' when Book 5, 6 or possibly 7 comes out. [grin] As an aside, can MAGIC DISHWASHER be disproved btw? > You mean that stories follow certain rules, and that an examination > of which rules the author is following will allow you to predict > where the story will go. > > Unfortunately, this mostly only works with second-rate writers. The > Rules say that Frodo either a)should have died heroically succeeding > in his task (theme of courage against certain death) or b)have > miraculously survived to a happy retirement (theme of grace) or c) > failed completely, with death and despair all round (theme of > despair). In fact, Tolkein is a good enough writer that none of > these happened - though there were a few chapters where the reader > was fooled into thinking it was going to be ending b). Yes, that metathinking fails. But... (everyone on the list backs up as they see a glint in Eileen's eye that spells 'TOLKIEN FANATIC) Let's pretend I am sitting here with the first two volumes of LotR. Tolkien is fiddling away making changes to the appendixes on RotK to the horror of his publishers and readers. I log onto 'Lord of the Rings for Adults" and the discussion is what's going to happen in the end to Frodo and his task. There's a lot of talk on the list about the Rules (as you suggested.) Some people are talking about what we can deduce from Sauron and Gandalf's strategies and what situations will result from them. Other people are rigorously analysing Frodo's character for clues. And I say, "Let's examine J.R.R. Tolkien's underpinning rules." I'm not going to come up with the ending of LotR. But I could establish certain things about Middle Earth. I could establish that it's not going to all end in Frodo miraculously surviving and living happily ever after. I would point out the pessimistic philosophies of Gandalf and Galadriel, for instance, the discussions of Lorien and the three Elven rings, the theme of a grander past from which the present has fallen, the idea all through the first two books that nothing will ever be as it was, all summed up in Galadriel's line: "Through all the ages of the world I have fought the long defeat." That's metathinking. And it's very valid. And why am I so anxious to rescue metathinking? Well, because the Big Bang Theory is metathinking, obviously! And what would we do without the Big Bang Theory? ;-) Eileen, off to the Destroyer From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 10 22:08:07 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:08:07 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Radio TBAY and the inconsistent behaviour of Albus Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45198 SCENE: A radio station. At the desk sits the Pipsqueak, with headphones and a raido mike in front of her. Yes, it's the Pipsqueak's turn to do the late night character phone-in at Radio TBAY PIPSQUEAK: Hello to all you lovely listies and characters and tonight's exciting discussion topic is: `Is my characterisation inconsistent?' And we've got our first caller ready for you on line one: Hello caller, and your name is? DUMBLEDORE: It's Albus here, Pipsqueak. PIPSQUEAK: Well, Albus, I was really expecting Crouch Jr. I wouldn't have thought you'd be calling us about problems with inconsistency. You're pretty consistently wise, merciful, kindly . DUMBLEDORE: Yes, it's the kindliness that I'm having the consistency problem with. You see, in Philosopher's Stone, Harry gets rather upset in Chapter 17, and I very considerately do a little bird watching while he dries his eyes PIPSQUEAK: Page 217 in the UK paperback, isn't it? DUMBLEDORE: That's right. Then in the Chamber of Secrets I'm not remotely amused by Filch's cat being petrified. He shrieks loudly that he wants `to see some punishment', and I reply `patiently'. PIPSQUEAK: The scene covers pp. 107 to 110, Ch. 9 in the UK paperback, doesn't it? I think I know which scene you're leading up to, Albus . DUMBLEDORE: Yes, it's that wretched Chapter 22 of PoA, with Severus losing his temper in front of the Minister for Magic. I'm afraid that I really don't find my looking `as though he was quite enjoying himself' in character. It's not very kindly. PIPSQUEAK: Yes, your eyes are twinkling as well; pages 305 to 307 of the UK hardback. DUMBLEDORE: Oh, my eyes always twinkle, whatever I'm doing. I think it's these wretched spectacles But I really don't think I should be enjoying myself in that scene. One of my teachers has just completely lost his temper in front of Fudge; which would really be rather like a muggle shouting at President Bush, and I seem to be finding it rather funny. PIPSQUEAK: Well I think we have several callers to give you advice on that topic, Albus, so we'll go over to line two And caller, your name is? KARIE: Karie, and Albus, I think you shouldn't worry at all about laughing at Snape. It IS funny. He's a thirty odd year old man acting like a three year old. DUMBLEDORE: Yes, I know, but what troubles me is that he's been recently knocked unconscious for nearly an hour, and has just seen the escape of someone he is convinced tried to murder him at sixteen. He is going to be upset, there is no getting round it. And I look amused. PIPSQUEAK: I think Pippin has an interesting point to make about the amused look, Albus, she's just come on to line three: PIPPIN: Yes, Albus, if all three of you were facing Harry, then Snape wouldn't have been able to see the expression on your face. I think you were primarily trying to reassure Harry and Hermione that they weren't going to be in any trouble DUMBLEDORE: Yes, but you see, Pippin, nowhere in the text am I given the direction `he shot a twinkling light blue glance towards Harry and Hermione' (I really must do something about these spectacles), which is my usual signal that I'm directing my words or thoughts in their direction PIPSQUEAK: Be fair, Albus, you do sometimes get to stare down your `very crooked nose' at them. DUMBLEDORE: Hmm. Why have I never asked Poppy Pomfrey to do something about that nose? I often `beam' at the children as well. Oh, well, at least it makes a change from twinkling. PIPSQUEAK: I see we've got another caller on line four: and your name is, caller? SNAPE: Professor Snape, Pipsqueak. PIPSQUEAK: Welcome, Professor. I'm sure there are lots of seeming inconsistencies in your characterisation that we'd love to discuss, but we are currently discussing Albus's problems with his amused look in Chapter 22 of PoA. SNAPE: That's why I'm calling, Pipsqueak. I'd like to discuss that scene as well. PIPSQUEAK: Well, Professor, I can't say that I've ever seen your behaviour in that scene as inconsistent. Open to several possible interpretations, yes, but not inconsistent. In fact I think Marina has something to say to you about that . Marina, are you on line five? MARINA: Yes, I am, and I'd just like to say that when considering Snape's behaviour in Chapter 22 SNAPE: I believe that for some reason it's referred to as the `Those Darn Kids' scene, though I have no idea why. MARINA: You have to make allowances for the emotional roller-coaster he's been put through. Fifteen years' worth of anger, finally presented with an outlet and a target, as well as with a chance at vindication -- and then it all gets snatched away. When you consider, Professor, that you're not a man known for your mild, even-tempered disposition, I think you handled it remarkably well. SNAPE: Thank you, Marina. I'm afraid that you can't see the `thin- lipped smile' with which I usually receive compliments, but I can assure you that it's there. PIPSQUEAK: You make Snape's situation sound quite tragic, Marina. Which of course makes it all the more puzzling that Albus here isn't trying to hide his `quite enjoying himself'. SNAPE: Yes, I have problems with that as well. I can see that it is a very funny scene to readers, but as I think the Headmaster has already pointed out, from the point of view of the characters *within* the scene, a man who has recently suffered a concussion losing his temper to an embarrassing degree in front of the most senior member of the Government our world has, is simply not very funny. It most certainly is not funny from my point of view, and the minimal amount of consideration I would expect from the Headmaster is that he would at least try not to look as if I was giving him the most entertaining show he'd had in years. DUMBLEDORE: You see how inconsistent my behaviour is? SNAPE: And there is another problem as well; I am generally portrayed as not being as nice, as likeable as Dumbledore . PIPSQUEAK: It's the disembowelling toads. That never goes down well. SNAPE: yes, well. BUT, in CoS Ch. 9 PIPSQUEAK: We've referred to this scene before, haven't we? Pp. 107 ? 110 SNAPE: Indeed. In Ch. 9, I am described as `trying very hard not to smile', when the Headmaster and Professor McGonagall are examining the cat. This is also a funny scene. But, *I* try NOT to smile. Filch is sobbing in a chair, and I am trying hard not to show him how funny I find it all. PIPSQUEAK: You're actually more considerate than Dumbledore SNAPE: Yes. Which is not going to do my image much good at all, is it? I terrify dark wizards. I torture small children. I try to feed sympathetic characters to Dementors and I'm more considerate than Dumbledore. What exactly is THAT going to do to my character consistency? PIPSQUEAK: I think Richard on line six has something to say about that GULPLUM: Yes, I have a problem with your MAGIC DISHWASHER theory PIPSQUEAK: Yes, Richard, but we're not really discussing characterisation inconsistency from the DISHWASHER point of view here. GULPLUM: Can I just make a brief point before I go back to characterisation? It is an already-ranting Snape who is leading Fudge and Dumbledore to the hospital wing, presumably ideally to prove Harry & Hermione's absence, or at least confront them over what happened. The only reason Snape would need to put on the show (presumably for Fudge's benefit) is because he led him there, and the reason he led them there was to put on the show. This is a causal loop and doesn't make sense of the theory you're trying to prove. PIPSQUEAK: No, Richard, DISHWASHER would say that Snape actually led Fudge to the hospital wing to prove that Harry and Hermione were visibly in their beds, with a witness to say they'd stayed there all the time and couldn't possibly have used a Time Turner to rescue Buckbeak and Sirius. Fudge is the Minister for Magic, Hermione's Time Turner had to be licensed by the Ministry. Fudge has all the clues to *how* the escape was carried out: but he's unlikely to even consider the possibility that Hermione and Harry had anything to do with it after Snape's little rant, and after seeing Harry and Hermione were in their beds all the time. But back to characterisation GULPLUM: Yes, I think, Albus that you've just managed a very difficult piece of misdirection ? you explain to Snape exactly how it was done, but he dismisses it. And that's funny. And you know that everything is under control and while you trust Snape, you don't see eye-to-eye with him about Harry and you like the idea of Snape disproving his own prejudices with his own eyes. SNAPE: Except that in fact, I'm 100% correct about Potter. He did help Black to escape. So you're saying that Dumbledore trusts me, but doesn't trust me about Potter, and also doesn't trust me enough to tell me to shut up and keep quiet before I start my rant. DUMBLEDORE: And, in fact, when I tell Severus `That will do', he does shut up immediately. PIPSQUEAK: Page 306. So you're worried Albus, that if you'd told Professor Snape to quiet down earlier, he wouldn't have made such a fool of himself. Well, you do tell him to `be reasonable', don't you? DUMBLEDORE: Which isn't the same as telling him to stop, is it? No, thank you to all your listies, it's been extremely pleasant to find that I have so many supporters in my characterisation problems, but I'm probably going to have to wait as long as the rest of you to find out whether it has some deeper explanation or is just inconsistent characterisation. PIPSQUEAK: Yes, indeed, I'm afraid we have run out of time here. Our next character call-in for Radio TBAY will be discussing the question `How can I make my character more exciting' and it's going to be Captain Cindy in the chair for that one! Thank you to Albus, Professor Snape, Karie, Pippin, Marina and Richard for joining in our discussion and it's a good night and happy theorising to you all. Pip For an explanation of the acronyms and theories in this post, visit Hypothetic Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin20Files/hypoth eticalley.htm and Inish Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 From sgarfio at yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 21:03:10 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: When is AK "necessary"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021010210310.36029.qmail@web21407.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45199 Sorry, I just sent this out under the wrong subject header... Richard Thorp wrote: > Someone else mentioned about Voldemort, and if he could be > AK'ed... I would guess that even if he could, the "good guys" > wouldn't do it, because it is stooping to Voldemorts level... > To draw a real world paralell it would be like decrying the > use of landmines, and then planting them yourself. And Heidi replied: > However, in GoF, Sirius points out that during Voldemort's first reign > of terror, Mr Crouch obtained authorisation for aurors to use > unforgivable curses. He also says that Moody didn't kill unless it was > necessary. Of course, that implies that when it was necessary, Moody did > kill Death Eaters (and possibly others as well). > > So where does that put the dividing line? Crouch's policies reminded me strongly of McCarthyism, which I found very disturbing. He sees it as okay for the cops to break the rules, even their most sacred rules, for the sake of stomping out Voldemort and his followers - after all, desperate times call for desperate measures. I would hope that Richard's assessment would hold true now that Crouch is gone and Dumbledore & Co. are the major influence. I seriously doubt Harry would ever stoop that low (at least, I really really hope he doesn't because he's such a good kid in spite of being a mentally abused orphan ;-). Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From Malady579 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 10 23:12:22 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:12:22 -0000 Subject: Why is AK unforgiveable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45200 Grey (May I call you Grey? Probably not.) wrote: >>>I am with you (partially), Melody, in that they are unblockable -but in my case, it's the *three* of them. Let me explain my position with some canon. ***GW sets up his line of logic**** And those are the premises. I believe that all curses can be blocked by the correct shield (allowing for things like relative power of the casters, amount of punishment taken by the shield so far, etc.). All except the unforgivable curses, which is what makes them so dangerous<<< Me: Awww, I'm touched. You agreed with me...sort of. :) I do see your point about the unforgivable to be unblockable. That would make sense why Auror Longbottum, who has dedicated his life to capturing those that do not want to be captured, could do nothing to avoid being attacked by the Cruciatus. If anyone knew how to block a curse, I believe it would be an auror. So then why is AK defined by Crouch/Moody as unblockable and not the others? Crouch/Moody said (GOF Ch 14), "How are you supposed to defend yourself against something you've never seen?...You need to be prepared." It seems there that he is implying that a defense against the illegals exists...except AK which he states later as you quoted. The only blocking of Imperius is within therefore unteachable, but he is quite quiet about Cruciatus. I do agree with Eloise that it is unlikely that he could perform Cruciatus on the students to help show them the needed blockage, but why show them in the first place if there is not remedy to the cure. Well besides to get his kicks. Crouch/Moody does say in the beginning of class, "I'm supposed to show you what illegal curses look like..." From the beginning, he says his only goal was to exhibit the effects of the curses not actually teach them how to have a defense against the dark illegal arts. So yes, in a way, the illegals are unblockable by any device created by a wizard whether spell or object. Well besides love. Maybe Harry would make a good auror. He can fight the Imperius and cannot die by AK curse...as long as his love charm doesn't have an expiration date. But by your pet theory, it seems Voldemort believes the charm is not protecting Harry anymore since he decided to perform AK during the duel. Melody From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Oct 10 23:31:56 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:31:56 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Upcoming Deaths (and past deaths) References: Message-ID: <007a01c270b5$398368a0$52a0cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45201 Debbie writes: > As for the plural "deaths", I think the Death Eaters will begin their > next killing spree, killing all and any in their way, wizards and > muggles. Most will be nameless faces to us, but some will affect us > more deeply. I think that we will know many of those who die, but not that many will be really close to Harry. As I've said a million and a half times, I think Hagrid will die in Book 5, and if Ron dies (I'm still hoping he lives, but doubting it as well) it won't be until Book 7 in a final confrontation or events leading to the final confrontation (so that Harry can go on, as we've seen before). However, in the mean time many others will die, JKR emphasized that in an interview(s). I think it will be people like one or more Weasleys (particularly those away from Hogwarts), and possibly students parents, older brothers/sisters, people Harry knew who have now left Hogwarts, etc. Hogwarts seems to be the safehaven, at least as long as Dumbledore is around. On the topic of deaths, In GoF at the leaving feast, Dumbledore said "Some of you in this Hall have already suffered directly at the hands of Lord Voldemort. Many of your families have been torn asunder." Now that "some of you have suffered" could go for anyone who was friends with Cedric. However, the "many of your families have been torn asunder" line is different. Who do we know who qualifies as having their family torn asunder by Voldemort? Harry, of course. Neville. Susan Bones (as her grandparents were killed by Voldemort). Who else? Anyone known? Three students hardly qualifies as "many." Therefore there must be many others. I suppose if indeed a Weasley (the "missing Weasley(s)") had been killed that would qualify four more (Fred, George, Ron, Ginny) no, five, wasn't Percy there as a guest? Can't remember if he stuck around that long. Anyway, it makes me wonder who all has been affected by Voldemort. Many more than we know for sure. Did I leave anyone out? Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From Malady579 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 10 23:37:02 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:37:02 -0000 Subject: Snape and Quirrellmort/MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45202 Grey wrote: >>>>There is really no room for a spy that could've tipped off Dumbledore about Voldemort's return and plans. So, how did Dumbledore know that Voldemort was trying to make a come-back, and thus that he needed to get the stone to the safest place possible? The answer, of course, is that the mark in Snape's arm had been giving them signals all along. Voldemort was getting closer, and was getting stronger too thanks to the nurture of Quirrell. As soon as they realised that Voldemort was coming back to the country (it's not as if you could pin-point the location of Voldemort by a very faint mark in someone's arm), they decided to move the stone to Hogwarts, just in case.<<< Now me adding to the idea: I like the idea that the mark tipped Dumbledore and Snape off to the fact that Voldemort was growing stronger. I always assumed the Snape in the pensive was from present HP year four, but it could be from the past pre-HP year one. I know Snape said that his and Karkaroff's marks were growing stronger, but maybe Snape was in contact with Karkaroff for comparison. Now if in fact Dumbledore and Snape were sitting back waiting for Voldemort to raise his strengths to come back to London, I wonder if they left the stone in Gringott's as bait. Snape, as a spy DE, placed the idea in Voldemort's head about the stone's existence and could of leaked the number of the vault to Voldemort or Quirrell to attract them to London within his and Dumbledore's watched world. So then, when Voldemort took the bait, they rushed down and removed the stone (bait) the day of instead of weeks before. Thus making it possible that Voldemort, or in this case, Quirrell in a precarious situation of being sucked into the vault. They could of caught the spy and maybe even Voldemort. Either way, Snape and Dumbledore were able to watch the premises and see: (a) the Voldemort supporter (Quirrell) (b) have Voldemort on home turf to influence I just do not by the "Oops, forgot the stone was in the safe that can be broken into by a powerful dark wizard. Wait there is a powerful dark wizard that would want to live forever. Hmm, wonder if he would actually steal it." I think the stone was bait. Melody From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 10 23:57:12 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:57:12 -0000 Subject: Metathinking (Why Snape may know what he knows WAS Re: The Gleam Revisited) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45203 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bluesqueak" wrote: > Hmmm... unfortunately lit-crit tends to provoke strange growling > noises from me, but could you possibly explain how a reader is *not* > supposed to interpret a text through their own knowledge and > understanding? And why this is supposedly less canonically rigorous > than interpreting it through, say, Freudian psychology. I never said lit-crit was more canonically rigorous than any other approach, I said that it wasn't *less* canonically rigorous. To my mind, there is absolutely no difference between interpreting a text through a reader's real-life experience, and interpreting it through Freudian psychology. In both cases, something from outside the text is used as a mechanism for examining the text. I also believe that a certain degree of metathinking is unavoidable: using knowledge of real life to interpret a piece of fiction only works if you assume that the author was striving for some degree of of realism -- and that in itself is a meta assumption. > > For example: I support my reading of Snape's goading of Harry in PoA > Ch. 19 by making reference to his similar behaviour in Ch.14 (where > he also goads Harry into losing his temper) and argue that Snape in > Ch.19 knows from his previous experience in Ch.14 that insulting > Harry's parents will make him lose his temper. That is MORE > canonically rigorous than supporting a different reading of Snape's > goading of Harry by saying that at this point in the Story it is > essential that Harry take independent action and learn that > sometimes we have to defy those in authority. That depends on what canonical evidence I would present to support the assertion that *this* point in the story, more than any other, requires Harry to take independent action. By the same token, if I point to specific statements in canon where Dumbledore emphasizes the importance of truth, honesty and free choice, and suggest that the Spymaster!Dumbledore theory undermines these statements, I don't see how it's canonically rigorous to suggest that the Spymaster theory must nevertheless be true because that's how counter-terrorism works in real life. Either approach can be as canonically rigorous, or canonically sloppy, as the user wants to make it. > > I never said the universe revolved around Harry, I said the > *story* > > revolved around Harry. Now I suppose you're going to say that by > > bringing the concept of story into it I'm indulging in meta- > > thinking, but I think that attempting to analyze a literary text > > without ever acknowledging that it *is* a literary text is a > highly > > artificial and pitfall-laden approach. > > [Rant mode on] > Marina, of course I know it's a literary text. It has a cover, and > pages, and words printed on the pages; I bought it from > the 'fiction' section of the bookshop - these are some of the clues > which tell me that it is a literary text. > > And I pay the entire list the compliment of assuming that I do not > *need* to acknowledge that it is a literary text, because they too > have picked up on these clues. Far from being 'artificial', assuming > that the fact that a literary text *is* a literary text is > understood by everyone (other than English Lit professors) and thus > requires no acknowledgement within a theory is the beginning point > of analysis. > [Rant mode off] I apologize if I phrased myself offensively. But I was responding to specific statement by Gray Wolf, who wrote the following in post 45141: > > Note that I haven't mentioned JKR other to put examples of terrorism > wars, and I have not mentioned the fact that HP is a book, nor that in > it JKR is God and Creator. At all points I treat Dumbledore et co. as > if they were real beings, capable of abstract thought. NOT as secondary > characters of a literature piece called "the Adventures of Harry > Potter". Perhaps I misinterpreted. But to me this looks like a conscious refusal to treat the books as a literary text. (And a conscicous refusal is not the same as ignorance or lack of understanding.) I wrote: > But if you're actually > > trying to predict where the story will go, then you have to deal > > with the fact that it is a story, not a news report or a > > historical chronicle, and examine the literary underpinnings. > > > Pip responded: > You mean that stories follow certain rules, and that an examination > of which rules the author is following will allow you to predict > where the story will go. > > Unfortunately, this mostly only works with second-rate writers. The > Rules say that Frodo either a)should have died heroically succeeding > in his task (theme of courage against certain death) or b)have > miraculously survived to a happy retirement (theme of grace) or c) > failed completely, with death and despair all round (theme of > despair). In fact, Tolkein is a good enough writer that none of > these happened - though there were a few chapters where the reader > was fooled into thinking it was going to be ending b). Lucky Kari has already addressed the LoTR example. I would just like to add that the general events of most classic Greek tragedies and Shakespearean plays can be predicted with a high degree of accuracy by anyone familiar with the forms. Doesn't make them second-rate. > > > Example: if you were trying to predict the ending of a traditional > > cozy British mystery, you would not say "the killer will be the > most > > likely suspect" or "the killer will be an anonymous drifter with > no > > connection to anyone in town." That may happen all the time in > > real life, but that's not how it happens in cozy British > mysteries. > > Of course, prior to Agatha Christie's cozy British mysteries you > would also have said 'the murderer cannot be a small child', 'the > murderer cannot be the detective', and so on. Well, Wilkie Collins used a variation of the "detective is the criminal" device in one of his novels decades before Christie, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone else had tried the child-murderer trick, too. But yes, before Christie, the genre rules were in flux, and could not be used as an analytical tool. Once the rules *are* established, however, using them is perfectly valid. >I think the only > reason she never used 'anonymous drifter' is because it's *so* > boring. It may be boring in the context of a British cozy, but it would be perfectly fine in a police procedural, or in a mainstream novel in which the murder is merely a vehicle for the author's philosophical musings about the randomness of fate. The conventions of the genre play a very big part in determining what will and will not work in the context of the story. Now when you look at the Harry Potter books, which are a hodgepodge of many different genres, the usefulness of genre as a predicting tool becomes very limited. But there are other considerations, such as theme, story structure, and, yes, the identity of the protagonist, that can be used with validity. That's not how it happens ... until a writer decides > different. > > > the HP series aren't quite as genre-bound, but I still don't > think > > you can just ignore the fact that Harry is the protagonist of the > > story, or that free choice, morality and the power of love have > >been established as major themes. > > I'm not. I just think that another major theme is going to turn out > to be 'sometimes we have to do things we hate and consider immoral > because the alternative is even more evil than the things we have to > do'. Morality when it consists of choosing between good and evil is > one thing; choosing the 'lesser of two evils' another. That's fine, if you can point to evidence of suchc a theme in canon (as opposed to saying that this is true in real life). > > The Voldemort war as shown in the books is one where both sides shot > to kill, and the supposedly good side imprisoned without trial. Yet none of these questionable methods on the part of the "good" guys led to Voldemort's downfall; instead, he was brought down by a mother's self-sacrificing love for her child. We see Dumbledore show disapproval of many of the Ministry's methods (such as the use of dementors). We see miscarriages of justice -- a famous athlete passes information to the enemy and gets off with a slap on the wrist; Death Eaters like Lucius Malfoy escape punishment, while the innocent Sirius spends twelve years in prison. In general, when the good guys start behaving like the bad guys, the results are not good. > Dumbledore may not have had a shoot-to-kill policy, but he uses a > truth potion on Crouch Jr. (depriving *him* of free choice and of > the right to not incriminate himself) without a second > thought.'Lesser of two evils' - he needed that information and he > needed it *now*. That does show that Dumbledore is capable of acting beyond the bounds of pure idealism, yes. But I think it's a long way from that to the sort of ruthless puppet-mastering that the MAGIC DISHWASHER theory is advocating. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From editor at texas.net Fri Oct 11 00:00:23 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:00:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] TBAY: Radio TBAY and the inconsistent behaviour of Albus Dumbledore References: Message-ID: <00c701c270b9$32f25c40$907c63d1@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 45204 PIPSQUEAK: Yes, indeed, I'm afraid we have run out of time here. Our next character call-in for Radio TBAY will be discussing the question `How can I make my character more exciting' and it's going to be Captain Cindy in the chair for that one! Thank you to Albus, Professor Snape, Karie, Pippin, Marina and Richard for joining in our discussion and it's a good night and happy theorising to you all. ------------------ Amanda slams down her phone in disgust and glares at the radio. "Damned busy signal! I have simply *got* to get a phone that has automatic redial," she mutters angrily as she reaches over and switches the radio off. ------- --Amanda, who simply can't *believe* she didn't get to talk to Snape and that dishwasher repairman did From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 11 00:10:53 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 00:10:53 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Radio TBAY and the inconsistent behaviour of Albus Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45205 Pipsqueak: Eileen on Line 2. Eileen: Oh, I'm so sorry I missed Professor Dumbledore. I really wanted to ask him a few questions. He was talking about his benevolence towards everyone, but it struck me that it wasn't quite true. That he's inconsistently characterized in quite a few places. Pipsqueak: Such as? Eileen: I don't want to be a pain and bring up the Farewell Feast again, but he didn't show much sympathy for the Slytherins' feelings there, did he? And how about telling Harry that James Potter had saved Snape's life without suggesting that there was something nastier to the story, thereby giving Harry another reason to dislike Snape? Or the vulture hat in the Christmas cracker? What about that dig about "My memory is as good as ever?" If you ask me, Dumbledore never shows any consideration for Snape. If I could find a canon example of Dumbledore showing consideration for Snape's feelings, I might feel better about this MAGIC DISHWASHER thing. Friendship and affection, yes. Consideration, no. Pipsqueak: We really are out of time. Eileen: Right, I'm really looking forward to hearing Captain Cindy on "How To Make Your Character More Exciting." Eileen From sgarfio at yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 21:01:27 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DISHWASHER Objection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021010210127.70610.qmail@web21402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45206 Richard Thorp wrote: > Someone else mentioned about Voldemort, and if he could be > AK'ed... I would guess that even if he could, the "good guys" > wouldn't do it, because it is stooping to Voldemorts level... > To draw a real world paralell it would be like decrying the > use of landmines, and then planting them yourself. And Heidi replied: > However, in GoF, Sirius points out that during Voldemort's first reign > of terror, Mr Crouch obtained authorisation for aurors to use > unforgivable curses. He also says that Moody didn't kill unless it was > necessary. Of course, that implies that when it was necessary, Moody did > kill Death Eaters (and possibly others as well). > > So where does that put the dividing line? Crouch's policies reminded me strongly of McCarthyism, which I found very disturbing. He sees it as okay for the cops to break the rules, even their most sacred rules, for the sake of stomping out Voldemort and his followers - after all, desperate times call for desperate measures. I would hope that Richard's assessment would hold true now that Crouch is gone and Dumbledore & Co. are the major influence. I seriously doubt Harry would ever stoop that low (at least, I really really hope he doesn't because he's such a good kid in spite of being a mentally abused orphan ;-). Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From porphyria at mindspring.com Fri Oct 11 00:12:55 2002 From: porphyria at mindspring.com (Porphyria Ashenden) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 00:12:55 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore's character inconsistent? (Was: Radio TBAY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45207 First, I'd like to second Eileen's well thought-out defense of Metathinking. And Marina's, who has posted as I compose this. I feel that if someone tries to look at a work of literature without some consideration for its artificiality or its literariness, then they miss out on some of the richness of the text. Furthermore, even if Magic Dishwasher does not make an assumption like "HP is a LeCarre- esque spy novel," still, the mere assumption that the characters would be acting according to real-world, realistic motivations given their situation is in itself metathinking. All approaches to literature involve some sort of "metathinking:" executive decisions about how to go about understanding it. Also, please let's go easy on English Professors; I nearly became one (I failed only due to lack of Lupinesque talent, not lack of admiration for it) and this is supposed to be a literary discussion group, so lets all try to respect each other's interpretive methods and play nice. Next, I'd like to give my defense for why Dumbledore's characterization is not inconsistent. Oh, wait, I already have, in post 43396 (8/30). But since it's come up again, please forgive me for repeating myself in little over a month. Pip jauntily posed the issue: ----- DUMBLEDORE: Which isn't the same as telling him to stop, is it? No, thank you to all your listies, it's been extremely pleasant to find that I have so many supporters in my characterisation problems, but I'm probably going to have to wait as long as the rest of you to find out whether it has some deeper explanation or is just inconsistent characterisation. ----- For one thing, I suppose we should ask ourselves where we draw the line between inconsistent and complex. Presumably, all characters need some rough edges or enigmatic qualities to be interesting (this list has agreed over and over that pure-white characters are no fun). But of course, there's a point where a character's anomalous behavior strains credibility. So there's got to be a happy medium. I think in Dumbledore there is. I'll summarize here the points in canon where I think Dumbledore is a bit mocking or insensitive towards Snape (I quote them in 43396). In PS/SS, his words to Harry "Funny the way people's minds work," is a little dismissive of Snape's humiliation and anger over the prank. In mid-PoA, his joke with the vulture-hat Christmas cracker is a rather embarrassing thing to do in front of Harry and Ron who both hate and disrespect him so much. And I do find his bemused attitude toward Snape at the end of PoA somewhat cruel. I'll concede to those who have argued with me on this (Eloise and Pippin) that perhaps Dumbledore is trying to let the Trio and Snape know that everything is all right, but I still feel that Dumbledore does not pull his punches in getting that idea across to Snape. I read the text as written, that Dumbledore is not afraid to remind Snape of his past to make a point, and that he does indeed appear to enjoy himself while Snape is obviously in distress. However, I didn't have much trouble resolving all this. I admit there are a number of ways of interpreting this, but what really works for me is to imagine that Snape and Dumbledore have what is essentially a father-son relationship. I'll guess that most of us have had the experience of having an argument over something we deeply disagree on with a person we care very much about. And these can get ugly in direct proportion to the degree of emotional involvement. But they don't stop either party from continuing to care and be loyal towards each other. I like the conventional reading of the end of PoA *because* it makes Snape look tragic and miserable and it puts Dumbledore in an awkward position from which he responds eloquently if not quite compassionately. This provides for me the emotional power of the situation and makes the book profoundly moving. Poignant, but moving. I would rather not believe in an interpretation that irons out the complexities here. I like the complexities. But to each their own. Furthermore, I think it is reasonable to assume that Dumbledore will treat Harry differently than he does Snape. Harry is still a young boy who needs encouragement; Snape is a hardened former Death Eater. Not that Snape isn't hyper-sensitive, but I think Dumbledore doesn't feel he needs reassure Snape in quite the way he does Harry, or at least not in public. So although I do agree with Pip that Dumbledore behaves very differently with each of these characters, I only find here evidence of Dumbledore's complex relationships with them, and not inconsistency. Bugaloo recently remarked: ----- IMO, after re-reading the Shreiking Shack for the third time last night, I have decided that who Snape has a "real" problem with is Dumbledore. Here are the issues they do not ("seemingly") agree on: 1) what to do with Harry when he breaks the rules; 2) the hiring of Lupin; and the 3) the acceptance of Sirius. ----- Interesting observation. For me, I don't think that Snape has a problem with Dumbledore per se. Snape defends Dumbledore (to Draco in CoS and Karkaroff in GoF) and typically treats him very respectfully (nearly always calling him "Headmaster" and so forth). And Snape really comes unglued in the staircase scene in GoF when Crouch-as- Moody implies that Dumbledore doesn't trust him. So I think that Snape relies on Dumbledore for his sense of self-worth and whatever partial sense of redemption he has. Bugaloo points out Snape's disagreements with Dumbledore involve Sirius, Lupin and Harry, and of course we know Snape has issues with James as well. I think all four of these characters unnerve Snape because they are all rivals for Dumbledore's affections. Snape sees them all as potential sibling rivals (well, "saw" in James's case, but still), and that makes him very jealous. He's not one to share Dumbledore's affection, and he doesn't understand that AD has enough unconditional love to go around. Anyway, I find an enormous amount of pathos in these characterizations and I am quite happy with my interpretation. ~Porphyria From sublime_muffin at yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 22:24:11 2002 From: sublime_muffin at yahoo.com (Dania Strong) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:24:11 -0000 Subject: Why LV must kill Harry? In-Reply-To: <20021010203913.55419.qmail@web21401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45208 Who's to say Harry isn't the heir of both Griffindor and Slytherin? Perhaps that is why Voldy wants him dead. I am thinking of the King Arthur myths again, and how "Wart" lived as an orphan. Is there an "Arthur" thread on here already? Anywho, that lead me to google-whack "Harry Potter" and "King Arthur". And I found some interesting sites. http://www.geocities.com/harrypotterwizardry/Harry_and_Arthur.html http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/special/potter/984711 http://www.geocities.com/dustylipson/Rumors.html There were many more interesting sites but you might see what I mean from the above. It is fun to think about the "King Arthur" myths and where they overlap. Oh well, see yah:) --Dania From dicentra at xmission.com Fri Oct 11 00:31:55 2002 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 00:31:55 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Missing Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45209 Dicentra is on the deck of the GARBAGE SCOW creating a tower with playing cards. Or at least she's trying to. She gets two or three levels up and then along comes Stoned!Harry and blasts it to bits with his wand. He says that's how Exploding Snap works; Dicentra just wants to wring his scrawny little neck. Presently, a small grey owl flutters onto the railing of the SCOW and sticks its leg out. Dicentra idly pulls off the note and gives the owl a Scooby Snack. She unrolls it and reads: "Elkins, I have searched the both Theory Bay and Inish Alley in search of a banner I might follow to show my support of the idea that Arthur Weasley was so horrendously controlled by He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named and his henchmen through the unforgivable use of the Imperius Curse. Alas, I can find no such banner to wave or follow without conceding to the idea of missing children. Why is there no Acronym for this beautifully subtle theory? "No DARE DEVILS - Dear Arthur Ruthlessly Enslaved by Death Eater Villains to Instigate Lamentable Situations, or LAW CAMERA - Lovable Arthur Weasley Controlled And Manipulated by Evil Riddle Anagram? "Will there one day be such a vessel sailing proudly through the bay? "Veronica" Dicentra ponders this. "I'm not Elkins," she thinks. "So why did this owl come to me?" The owl, vigorously grooming its feathers, is not paying attention at all. "Whatever," thinks Dicentra. She goes to her filing cabinet, opens it, and points her wand at the open drawer. "Accio 'Arthur Weasley, With Imperius Curse'" A roll of parchment flies out and she catches it. "Here it is! Post 37121." She rolls it up tightly and asks Stoned!Harry if he'll do the honors with the shrinking spell. (No way is that little grey owl going to be able to carry an *Elkins* post.) Dicentra ties the little roll of parchment to the owl's leg and strokes his chest before he flies off. "Someone will have to take care of those acronyms," says Stoned!Harry, with an "it's not me" grin on his face. "That would be the Inish Alley curator," mutters --Dicentra, as she remembers that she's it From regrantfrost at hotmail.com Fri Oct 11 00:40:41 2002 From: regrantfrost at hotmail.com (R.E. Grant-Frost) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:40:41 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why LV must kill Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45210 **Paul wrote: >I know this is incredibly non-bangy, but maybe Voldemort was just extremely >sexist. He didn't want to kill Lily because: A. He thinks it's unchivalrous >to kill women. There are some things even a dark lord hesitates at! B. He >thinks women are "not a threat" and therefore it's safe to leave her alive. > >-Paul > Let's not forget Bertha Jorkins. I doubt Voldemort even blinked when it came to killing her. I think Voldemort's motivations in sparing Lily Potter are far more complex than we estimate. I couldn't even fathom what they might be, so I'm happy to wait for future books to find out :-) _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Oct 11 01:43:53 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:43:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arthur Weasley & Imperius Curse (was Re: TBAY: Missing Theory) References: Message-ID: <004a01c270c7$a8fab280$a89dcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45211 Dicentra writes: > A roll of parchment flies out and she catches it. "Here it is! Post > 37121." She rolls it up tightly and asks Stoned!Harry if he'll do the > honors with the shrinking spell. (No way is that little grey owl going > to be able to carry an *Elkins* post.) As I've been pondering this very thing lately, I'll jump in here on the Arthur Weasley Imperius Curse thing. First, I agree with the above mentioned post, based on Moody/Crouch's actions in the DADA class (calling on Neville for Cruciatus curse answer, drawing attention to Harry after AK, etc.) it is highly likely that Arthur was somewhere along the way a victim of the Imperius curse. Futhermore, Harry's parents were killed by AK, one of the unforgiveables; Neville's parents were driven insane by the Cruciatus curse, another of the unforgiveables; therefore it would make sense that someone's parents were in some way tortured by the third and final unforgiveable, the Imperius. [Side note, if that wasn't a run-on sentence, I don't know what is!] And the only one mentioned in relation to this was Arthur Weasley (and Ron, for being called on to give the answer). But how? My personal opinion ties this in with the Weasley family's absolute horror at the name "Voldemort" and Arthur's recollections of the dark mark. Could a DE (or Voldemort himself, for that matter) have put Arthur Weasley under an Imperius curse, had him kill one or more of his own children, leave the dark mark, and return to the DE's so they could laugh about it? There's definitely a missing Weasley or two in there (what family who loves having children so much goes what, six years without at least one?) Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From debmclain at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 02:38:47 2002 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie McLain) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 02:38:47 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's bond with Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45212 I have read earlier postings about "wizards saving wizards" and their life-debts. However, I found something a little different. In PoA, Dumbledore says to Harry, "Pettigrew owes his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your debt when one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them...and I'm much mistaken if Voldemort wants his servant in the debt of Harry Potter." I discovered something interesting when re-reading GoF: 1. "Wormtail screamed, screamed as though every nerve in his body were on fire ,the screaming filled Harry's ears as the scar on his forehead seared with pain; he was yelling too..." (p.577) 2. "..he closed his eyes as tightly as he could, but he could not block the scream that pierced the night, that went through Harry as though he had been stabbed with the dagger too." (p.642) 3. "He pressed his long white forefinger to the brand on Wormtail's arm. The scar on Harry's forehead seared with a sharp pain again,and Wormtail let our a fresh howl..." (p. 645) It seems whenever Wormtail/Pettigrew is in pain, Harry feels it too. This "certain bond" is not just a life-debt, but an actual physical link. But it doesn't stop at just being physical, Harry can be transported in his "dreams" to where Pettigrew is, as in what happens in the first chapter of GoF. This bond between Pettigrew and Harry is not the typical life-debt. Just some interesting observations... -Debbie whose baby boy was born with a scar on his forehead too From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 03:15:34 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Upcoming Deaths (44107) Message-ID: <20021011031534.42531.qmail@web40310.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45213 Welcome, Debbie! <<>> I feel the same way myself sometimes, but I think can safely say that EVERYONE on this list has a Ph.D....in Harry Potter, of course! Including you, I'm sure! << <<>> I think Dumbledore's time will come sooner than the last chapter, mostly because he is looking more tired than ever (JKR does reference this a lot), and the series seems to be leading to less and less involvement from Dumbledore and more of Harry handling Voldemort on his own. <<<>> I think the romance between R/H will be allowed to bloom throughout the rest of the series, and that Ron will be spared...at least until the end. I just don't like that forshadowing of the chess game where he sacrifices himself. Yes, I'm a bit concerned about my precious little Ronniekins. I agree that something is planned for Neville, but what that is, I am not yet sure. There's a theory going around that he's had very strong memory charms put on him as a toddler because he saw his parents get crucio-ed, and that's why he is so forgetful and clumsy. Maybe those memory charms wil be removed and Neville will really come into his own, which I would love to see. I also read a rumor that Neville will be under Imperio for all of OoP and that this Imperio was started by BartyJr!Moody in GOF when "Moody" is teaching them about the 3 unforgivables. Supposedly, Voldemort takes over this Imperios after Barty gets kissed, and Neville becomes this great wizard and Quidditch player, becoming the captain and forcing Harry to endanger his life by putting him in dangerous Quidditch situations. I don't really buy this theory, but it's out there, and when I say it's out there, I mean it's "out there"! <<>> I agree with you here. There will be some characters that we've only heard their name in passing, perhaps at the sorting or in an adjoining class with the Gryffindors, and that their families will be killed. And muggle families with students at Hogwarts. I suspect they might be first, considering Voldemort's hatred of Mudbloods. That makes me very worried for Hermione's family for this next book, and Colin's family, as well as Justin's and countless other muggle-borns. Oooohh, it's making my tummy ache just thinking about it, so I will stop now. What will come will come... <<<-Debbie who has a son born the night she finished GoF, born with a mark curiously on his forehead....but daddy refused to name him Harry.>>> Too bad! He would have had a built-in Halloween costume! :-) I finished reading GOF about 8 hours before giving birth to my daughter in 2000. It was so good I wanted to start reading it again, but labor had progressed by then and I was a little busy. I still brought it to the hospital, however. :-) ~Lilac~ (You can tell I'm a mom of small children because I used the phrase "tummy ache".) ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 03:25:10 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIP Future Romantic Subplots Message-ID: <20021011032510.1944.qmail@web40309.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45214 Hello, Dania! Nice name, btw! <<>> Now I really need a refresher course on Arthurian legend. But I agree with you on wanting to see more romantic storylines in future books. I like romantic fluff! But I have a feeling that any romantic subplot JKR will have some tie-in with the main problem of the novel. Do you know of any quotes where JKR has said it's loosley based on Arthur? <<>> Please elaborate on this point for those of us (I'm probably the only one) who need to brush up on their Arthur. The only Arthur I hear about lately is an Ardvark with an annoying little sister named D.W. :-) ~Lilac (who will go on her own Holy Grail quest to find out more about Arthur the legend after she finishes here!) ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nplyon at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 03:31:31 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: {FILK} Big Machine Message-ID: <20021011033131.200.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45215 Big Machine (To the tune of "Big Machine" by the Goo Goo Dolls) Dedicated to everyone else who thought Hagrid needed a filk of his own. Now if only Hagrid looked like Johnny Rzeznik :) Gasoline is all you need When you ride a big machine Say the Muggles But my friends bike needs no gas And its really, really fast Its very cool His motor bike makes me drool Its very big and quite loud Makes Sirius stand out in a crowd Oh Im so jealous Big enough for me to ride I know that because Ive tried His bikes the best Theres no doubt it beats the rest I love that big bike You know I wish it was mine Id ride it often You know I wish it was mine Im telling you, its no lie On that motor bike you fly Oh Im so jealous You can fly from here to there You can fly it anywhere It beats a broom That wood stick just lacks the vroom Handles great, just like a dream Makes the pretty witches scream A real chick magnet Keeping grounds sure dont pay much But it pays the bills and such Maybe a loan Then Ill get one of my own I love that big bike You know I wish it was mine Id ride it often You know I wish it was mine You know I wish it was mine You know I wish it was mine __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From nplyon at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 04:46:57 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: {FILK} The Wizard World Message-ID: <20021011044657.54888.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45216 The Wizard World (To the tune of A Whole New World from Disneys Aladdin.) Dedicated to Gail B., for whom I like to filk one Disney song a week. :) Colin: Welcome to this new world Awesome, enchanted, magic Tell me, Dennis, did you Dream of these amazing sights? Hogwarts opened my eyes Showed me all of its wonders Monsters, Dark Lords who plunder Basilisks that petrify The wizard world Its unbelieveable but true A castle full of ghosts One thing it boasts Is a Forbidden Forest Dennis: The wizard world I found it hard to believe you But now that I am here Its crystal clear That your tales of the wizard world were true Colin: My tales of the wizard world were true Dennis: I fell into the lake Something rescued me, it did You think that it was the squid And I say how cool is that? The wizard world (Colin: Look theres Harry Potter) Cant wait to see a Quidditch game (Colin: He and I are such good friends) This place is like a dream My eyes, they gleam Never again will my life be the same Colin: The wizard world (Dennis: So many things to see) Amazing subjects to pursue (Dennis: I just cant keep from gawking) Both: Nowhere Id rather be Than here you see Sharing the wizard world with my bro Colin: The wizard world Dennis: The wizard world Colin: Its where well play Dennis: Its where well play Colin: This magic place Dennis: This thrilling space Both Were here to stay ~Nicole, feeling her usual sense of accomplishment after completing her weekly filk quota. :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 03:01:01 2002 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 03:01:01 -0000 Subject: Why LV must kill Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45218 > Harry and Voldemort's traits were mixed up during the failed AK > incident. Thus, Harry has some of Voldemort's personality traits and > abilities (talking to snakes). Since Harry has part of the Heir of > Slytherin's "essence" in him, it's only natural the hat would > consider putting him in there. Don't forget, the hat was giving Harry a choice. Or rather, was respecting Harry's choice. And to Rowling, choice matters more than "essence". Harry could be the heir of Gryffindor and have been put in Slytherin if he'd chosen it. It just goes to show how incredibly insignificant 'birth status' really is to what kind of person you are. -Ing From smiller_92407 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 06:15:19 2002 From: smiller_92407 at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 06:15:19 -0000 Subject: Why LV must kill Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45219 psychodudeneo wrote: > This has probably been answered before. If, indeed, Harry is the Heir of > Gryffindor, which I think is likely, why did the Sorting Hat try to put him in > Slytherin? The Sorting Hat was Godric Gryffindor's own hat; surely the hat > would recognize a decendant (ancestor?) of its original owner. Or possibly > "heir" is not necessarily being used in the blood sense - Harry could be > Gryffindor's heir *by designation*, either by Godric himself in conjunction > with a prediction, or through the generations by the previously designated heir > (Dumbledore?). But again, why would the Sorting Hat not recognize this? Any > thoughts? Old posts I should be reading? > Yay! I've been waiting for this lead-in. The sorting hat said "You could be great you know, and Slytherin would help you there." (Or something similar) So, what does Slytherin have that would uniquely help Harry to greatness? Snape! I'm a firm believer that Snape is the real hero in the series. I think his hatred of Harry is mostly an act, to what purpose we yet don't know. It has been noticed that Snape is apparently the only teacher who sleeps with his house. It seems logical that due to his house bias that he provides special assistance and tutoring to students in his house - else how in the world do Crabbe and Goyle pass their exams? In this regard, Prof. McGonegal is useless. I think that the Sorting Hat recognized that keeping Harry close to a teacher after hours would help him in his learning and provide the means to the acquisition of additional skills. I think the Sorting Hat was right the first time. I think that Harry's path to greatness might have been easier if he had sorted into Slytherin. He will still be great, but he needs to do it the hard way - mostly by himself, with only peer assistance from his Gryffindor friends. ~ Constance Vigilance From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Fri Oct 11 09:16:28 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:16:28 +0100 Subject: Upcoming Deaths (and past deaths) In-Reply-To: <007a01c270b5$398368a0$52a0cdd1@istu757> References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021011100809.0097e100@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45220 At 18:31 10/10/02 -0500, Richelle Votaw wrote: >On the topic of deaths, In GoF at the leaving feast, Dumbledore said "Some >of you in this Hall have already suffered directly at the hands of Lord >Voldemort. Many of your families have been torn asunder." Now that "some >of you have suffered" could go for anyone who was friends with Cedric. >However, the "many of your families have been torn asunder" line is >different. Who do we know who qualifies as having their family torn asunder >by Voldemort? Harry, of course. Neville. Susan Bones (as her grandparents >were killed by Voldemort). Who else? Anyone known? Three students hardly >qualifies as "many." Therefore there must be many others. I suppose if >indeed a Weasley (the "missing Weasley(s)") had been killed that would >qualify four more (Fred, George, Ron, Ginny) no, five, wasn't Percy there as >a guest? Can't remember if he stuck around that long. Anyway, it makes me >wonder who all has been affected by Voldemort. Many more than we know for >sure. Did I leave anyone out? I don't think you missed any *known* connections, but I'm just popping my head over the parapet to re-air my little theory that there are hidden depths to good ol' Dean Thomas, about whose parentage we know absolutely nothing at present. Uniquely among Harry and his peers, we don't even know about their Muggle/Wizarding status or what happened to them. All we know is that "Like Harry, he lived with Muggles" (indicating an adoptive status, rather than a natural one, else why would the comparison be to Harry rather than Hermione?). I just wish I had the imagination to work out a plausible direction for my theory-ette (calling it a "theory" is far too grand a term). :-) From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Fri Oct 11 11:03:43 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:03:43 +0100 Subject: Radio TBAY and the inconsistent behaviour of Albus Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021011102119.009709a0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45221 (As usual, I'm not even attempting a TBAY style; I've been thinking about why TBAY style actually makes me uneasy at times but have yet to come to any conclusions; I've always considered it a bit twee for my taste, but I actually felt uneasy reading this one) At 22:08 10/10/02 +0000, bluesqueak wrote: >DUMBLEDORE: Yes, it's the kindliness that I'm having the consistency >problem with. You see, in Philosopher's Stone, Harry gets rather >upset in Chapter 17, and I very considerately do a little bird >watching while he dries his eyes His absorption with the bird is not a sign of unkindliness. Harry is getting a bit bleary-eyed and anyone who was ever a teenage boys knows how embarrassing it is to be *seen* to be crying. He could see that Harry was aware that he knows that Harry's on the verge or tears (IYSWIM), and effectively makes matters worse by pointedly avoiding the issue rather than by grabbing the bull by the horns, but, from a teenage Harry's POV it was an act of kindness to give Harry the chance to recompose himself rather than to dwell on the issue. It wasn't the most pedagogical thing to do, but it was the human thing to do. >DUMBLEDORE: That's right. Then in the Chamber of Secrets I'm not >remotely amused by Filch's cat being petrified. He shrieks loudly >that he wants `to see some punishment', and I reply `patiently'. Sorry, I don't have a clue what point you're trying to make. Was "not remotely amused" meant to be ironic? Because it's my recollection that it's Snape who seemed to be enjoying himself (or has your MAGIC DISHWASHER position gone so far to combine Dumbledore's and Snape's reactions?) :-) (I'm desperately trying to avoid re-reading any of CoS until after the MTSNBN comes out.) As for Dumbledore's "patient" reply, part of the point about Dumbledore is that unlike most characters, he has *never* lost his composure to date. Snape in particular is prone to quite the opposite, of course... >DISHWASHER would say that Snape actually led Fudge to the hospital wing to >prove that Harry and Hermione were visibly in their beds, with a witness >to say they'd stayed there all the time and couldn't possibly have used a >Time Turner to rescue Buckbeak and Sirius. Fudge is the Minister for >Magic, Hermione's >Time Turner had to be licensed by the Ministry. Fudge has all the >clues to *how* the escape was carried out: but he's unlikely to even >consider the possibility that Hermione and Harry had anything to do >with it after Snape's little rant, and after seeing Harry and >Hermione were in their beds all the time. Sorry, I just don't see how that follows. Fudge is indeed the Minister for Magic, but there is no indication that he personally authorised Hermione's use of the Time-Turner that year. As he enters the scene, he's under the impression that Sirius found some way to Disapparate. Snape disabuses him of that notion in no uncertain terms. As I understand MAGIC DISHWASHER, Snape and Dumbledore are acting in tandem here, so why on earth would they want to make absolutely sure that Fudge not only knows how it was NOT done, but plant the seed in his mind how it WAS done? Even assuming that Fudge already knows that Harry and Hermione are best pals and would do anything for each other (which canon does not indicate), why on earth would Snape & Dumbledore lead Fudge directly to their bedsides, to make him see them there to underline their connection, and then summarise what Time-Turners do? On his return to his office, Fudge would think about how Sirius escaped and discover (or remind himself) that a very bright Muggle-born witch by the name of Hermione Granger, who just *happens* to be Harry Potter's (second)best friend and would do absolutely anything for him, just *happens* to have a Time-Turner in her possession. Not to mention that Fudge is known to have anti-Muggle-born tendencies even if, at present at least, he doesn't overtly act on them. Sorry, I just don't see that explanation holding any water *AT ALL*. Why take the slightest, remotest risk that Fudge might work out how it was done, when he'd already worked it out for himself and jumped to the wrong conclusions? Surely the wisest (and easiest) way to throw him off the scent would be to reinforce his own incorrect suppositions? After all, Black is a seriously powerful and dark wizard - who's to say that he hadn't found a way around Hogwarts' anti-Apparition protections? >GULPLUM: Yes, I think, Albus that you've just managed a very difficult >piece of misdirection May I point out that the word "difficult" was added in there by you. I don't think it was difficult at all. >? you explain to Snape exactly how it was done, but he dismisses it. And >that's funny. And you know that everything is under control and while you >trust Snape, you don't see eye-to-eye with him about Harry and you like >the idea of Snape disproving his own prejudices with his own eyes. >SNAPE: Except that in fact, I'm 100% correct about Potter. He did >help Black to escape. So you're saying that Dumbledore trusts me, >but doesn't trust me about Potter, and also doesn't trust me enough >to tell me to shut up and keep quiet before I start my rant. This may be subtle, but it's not so much that Dumbledore doesn't trust Snape about Potter. It's that Dumbledore knows that Snape thinks Dumbledore is too soft on Harry, and that Snape sometimes needs to be reminded that Harry isn't an awful brat who's got it in for Snape (sorry about repeating the names rather than using pronouns but I wanted to be clear). As for shutting Snape up, why should he? Snape's on a roll (he's "seething") and ordering him to shut up will do no good. Snape needs to see for himself that Harry is safely locked into the Infirmary, and decide for himself whether or not Harry had anything to do with Black's escape. >DUMBLEDORE: And, in fact, when I tell Severus `That will do', he >does shut up immediately. Because it's his first chance to get a word in edgeways! Even though Snape does shut up, he is still "seething" and looking from Fudge to Dumbledore. Indeed, Snape has little option *but* to shut up: he's in an untenable situation - he's just berated the Minister, he's busted into the Infirmary and interrupted two (in fact, three) injured pupils whom he's accused of heinous mis-deeds, and all because of his own prejudices. Dumbledore's calm reaction underlines to him that his rantings (seemingly) make no sense and he's left with egg all over his face and a mystery. Of *course* he's going to shut up! He has nothing left to say! Note that Dumbledore is not in the slightest bit condescending towards Snape, nor does he berate Snape for his over-emotional and (seemingly) unreasonable rantings. He just gives Snape a couple of pointers to make up his mind for himself. Snape has just made a fool of himself in front of the Minister and in front of the two pupils he despises the most, and he knows it. Note also that there is no indication of Dumbledore being amused or twinkle-eyed at this stage in the proceedings. If, as MAGIC DISHWASHER would have it, he and Snape have just succeeded in befuddling Fudge, *this* is the stage at which we would be amused? He's not. My feeling is that if there had been any indication of his emotional condition, it'd be that he's a bit sad about Snape having lost his cool. It was vaguely amusing at the beginning of the scene when it was just them and Fudge, but to do so in the presence of pupils was a little degrading. >PIPSQUEAK: Page 306. So you're worried Albus, that if you'd told >Professor Snape to quiet down earlier, he wouldn't have made such a >fool of himself. Well, you do tell him to `be reasonable', don't you? No, Dumbledore doesn't. Fudge does. From rotsiepots at yahoo.com.au Fri Oct 11 07:54:20 2002 From: rotsiepots at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rotsie=20Pots?=) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:54:20 +1000 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why LV must kill Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021011075420.15487.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45224 Constance Vigilance wrote: >Yay! I've been waiting for this lead-in. The sorting >hat said "You could be great you know, and Slytherin >would help you there." (Or something similar) So, >what does Slytherin have that would uniquely help >Harry to greatness? Snape! I think we're over simplifying to assume that Snape is the only reason the Sorting Hat would have put Harry in Slytherin. I'm not sure about the complex workings of the Hat, but I'm assuming that it only really considers personality traits and characteristics; I doubt it incorporates additional information in makings its decision. Harry does share a lot of personality traits with Slytherins; he's cunning and sly, but not in the malevolently "Slytherin" sense. >I'm a firm believer that Snape is the real hero in >the series. I think his hatred of Harry is mostly an >act, to what purpose we yet don't know. I genuinely think Snape doesn't like Harry. He's just transferring his loathing of James onto Harry. There's been no real indication otherwise...things could change, I suppose. >It has been noticed that Snape is apparently the only >teacher who sleeps with his house. It seems logical >that due to his house bias that he provides special >assistance and tutoring to students in his house - >else how in the world do Crabbe and Goyle pass their >exams? In this regard, Prof. McGonegal is useless. I >think that the Sorting Hat recognized that keeping >Harry close to a teacher after hours would help him >in his learning and provide the means to the >acquisition of additional skills.I think the Sorting >Hat was right the first time. I think that Harry's >path to greatness might have been easier if he had >sorted into Slytherin. He will still be great, but he >needs to do it the hard way - mostly by himself, with >only peer assistance from his Gryffindor friends. Erm, I highly doubt whether Snape actually sleeps in the dorms with the students (where do you get the reference for this?) It's evident that all the teachers sleep somewhere at Hogwarts (eg McGonagall's tartan nightdress, the general events of CoS), however I'm sure they have their own quarters, rather than bunking with students. Just some thoughts... --Rotsie http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger for SMS - Always be connected to your Messenger Friends From potter76 at libero.it Fri Oct 11 10:46:12 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:46:12 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Quirrellmort/MAGIC DISHWASHER References: Message-ID: <3DA6ABF4.000001.42163@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 45225 I wrote: >>One final though, I like very much MAGIC DISHWASHER but I feel it's >>way too complex for children and , even though the books are not >>exclusively aimed at them still, JKR knows that a big part of her >>readers are quite young And Grey Wolf ( a great theorist, IMO) answered: >First things first: that argument you've used there is metathinking. Is it? I tried to follow all of that metathinking discussion but couldn't really understand what you were talking about. Not to be meant as a form of criticism, I didn't *really* understand! >Which I hate, especially when used for or against MAGIC DISHWASHER, as >I think I've made abundantly clear by now. This is almost the only thing I managed to make out of those posts ;) [cut] >the books are *not* written for children. JKR wrote them aiming at >herself, at something that would please *her*. The fact that 100 >million people seem to have the same tastes, and that most of them are >children, means nothing. Well, if I understood it correctly, she *planned* the series to please herself but she's actually writing it *now* knowing that millions of kids are reading and enjoying them (which doesn't mean that now she's writing for them but simply that she's aware of who her readers are, and when these readers are children one tends to feel some responsibility towards them). Before all the hype begun she had the general lines quite clear but as she works on each book she enriches it with details and new ideas, reconsidering what she had planned to make it more effective, adding or removing a subplot if she thinks it appropriate ( I'm thinking about the 'weasleys' cousin' whose appearance she put off to another volume). Is all this metathinking? I have a feeling it is, maybe I'm finally understanding! >And if you think MAGIC DISHWASHER is >inapropiate for children, you should read again the Graveyard Gathering >scene and the death of Cedric "Spare" Diggory. *That's* scary. I don't need to reread the Graveyard scene, I firmly believe from the first time that I read it that is too much for kids, even though I never carried out my plan to 'prove' it by means of interviewing young readers. Anyway ' inappropriate' is a big word, I said that MD is too 'complex' for kids; inappropriate is, IMO, the grim view of the world that it implicates. But as you say, one can read on many levels, and I believe that JKR is writing her books 'like onions' ( to use an expression used by the likes of R. Kipling and A. Garner in reference to their children's books) and there may be a way to 'use' the MD without having children realize what it entails As you put it: >If MAGIC DISHWASHER >proves to be true (objective number 2, as Pip said), it won't be >spelled out as such: it will have been working in the background, and >giving the books realism. To my other point: >> And wouldn't it be horrible to discover that our hero has been 'used' >> and raised with almost the sole purpose of giving his blood to the >> 'right cause'? If i were Harry I would feel cheated, and after 10 >> years deprived of love to find finally people who cares for me and >> then discover that they did because they 'needed' me would be >> devastating. Everything I had come to believe in and everyone I >> trusted and loved would seem false and hollow, just empty lies. Isn't >> it something terrible to give children? Grey Wolf answered: [cut] > However, your question is valid. And can be answered logically from >past events. I don't think that Harry's role in MAGIC DISHWASHER is >over after giving his blood for the potion. I didn't mean to say that, I used 'give his blood for the cause' partly metaphorically to mean "to be the mean ( or one of)of LV 's defeat" [ cut: how Dumbl. 'trained' Harry to deal with LV in PS; all too true, I absolutely agree with this] >Besides, I, like Pip, don't understand what's so wrong with being the >"pawn". It's the pawn that, in the end, becomes the hero, *even in chess*. Well, nothing so wrong if you believe in Destiny, because that way we are all pawns in a game bigger than us that we do not control. But this is another story. let's get back to the point: according to MAGIC DISHWASHER Harry has been put through one nightmare after the other ( thankfully with a little preparation) by people he loves and trust, without being "explained" the necessity of it. Isn't it a violence they're doing him? Don't you think he would have agreed to make some sacrifices if he was asked to (with particular reference to the blood taking)? He believes he *finds* himself involved in these events ( despite his tendency to meddle in things that don't really concern him, see PS) what will happen when he realizes he has been guided into them? wouldn't it be normal to feel that he was deprived of his childood and adolescence and of any meaning to his life? Wouldn't it seem like he was Imperio'ed, led to do what others wished him to? wouldn't it be as Unforgivable as that curse? You may say that there is still place for his free will to act, that at some point he may make the choice everyone doesn't want him to make ( turn to the Dark Side, take one step bak and say "this is none of my business", whatever) but this ,IMO, doesn't changed the fact that he's been manipulated and I can't even stand the thought of it!! well, I don't know if I managed to explain my thoughts clearly because I fell very passionate about this, which means that for the sake of my health I could not enter into a discussion of these "moral problems" again. Anyway, I got the impression that this is not really what is central to Grey Wolf's take on the books so, at least, I won't argue again with you given the different perpective we use, it wouldn't really 'help' no one (to use your "motto") R. From karnasaur at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 11:42:05 2002 From: karnasaur at yahoo.com (Kristjan Arnason) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 04:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: House assumptions In-Reply-To: <1034296333.16179.40872.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021011114205.65910.qmail@web10411.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45226 Hi, First post here. I was thinking about the Houses, and people we all seem to assume were in which when they were younger. Particularly Lily Potter and Dumbledore. I always figured Lily was in Gryffindor, but I don't recall reading anything in the books that supports this. Am I wrong? And as for Dumbledore, we only have Hagrid's word that he'd heard Dumbledore was in Gryffindor, but that (if he's really 180 years old, or whatever) isn't much to go on. I bet at least one of the two will turn out to have been in Slytherin. That would be interesting. It also seems likely that the four marauders were all Gryffindors, since they were constant companions of James, but I think that's all the proof we have. Take care, Kris __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From rvotaw at i-55.com Sat Oct 12 17:21:13 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 12:21:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] House assumptions Message-ID: <8170560.1034443273197.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45227 Kris wrote: > I was thinking about the Houses, and people we all > seem to assume were in which when they were younger. > Particularly Lily Potter and Dumbledore. I always > figured Lily was in Gryffindor, but I don't recall > reading anything in the books that supports this. Am > I wrong? It wasn't in the book, but JKR confirmed in an interview that Lily was in Gryffindor. > And as for Dumbledore, we only have Hagrid's > word that he'd heard Dumbledore was in Gryffindor, but > that (if he's really 180 years old, or whatever) isn't > much to go on. Actually it was Hermione who said Dumbledore was in Gryffindor. And it's not like her to go spouting off false information, I tend to believe her until she's proven wrong. Considering he's in possession of Godric Gryffindor's sword and all, I find it hard to believe he could be in Slytherin. > It also seems likely that the four marauders were all > Gryffindors, since they were constant companions of > James, but I think that's all the proof we have. Actually I think it much more likely that the marauders are the ones whose houses will be a surprise. I'm still convinced that all four were from a different house, which is why their friendship was so unique. I mean, Ron and Harry are always together and nobody seems the least bit impressed by that. The whole concept of the Marauder's Map is based on getting around Hogwarts. Regardless of what form you're in, you still need a password to get in to the various common rooms. I think that Harry's big shock will come when he finds out his beloved godfather was in Slytherin. There is bound to be someone who Harry likes that turns out to have been a Slytherin, and Sirius seems the most likely candidate for that. For example, no one in the WW had any trouble believing that Sirius was the guilty one. Why? They had muggle witnesses, sure. But they also knew that more "bad" wizards came from Slytherin than any other house. Not all, most. [side note, Daniel Radcliffe mentioned in an interview that he could be a good Slytherin, as there is an exception to every rule. Could JKR have let him in on a secret? Nah, probably not. But it was an interesting statement, considering.] My theory has James in Gryffindor, Lupin in Ravenclaw (though the two could be switched, but I doubt it), Sirius in Slytherin, and Peter in Hufflepuff. (You know, the loyal one, "logical" choice for a secret keeper, the one both Sirius and James would agree could be the safest). I admit, you have the theory that they'd think Voldemort wouldn't like his weakness, but I don't think they were that naive. I think they would both know Voldemort would use anyone that could possibly be used to his advantage. Peter wouldn't make a good DE, but he could (and did) turn out useful. Okay, I've rambled on far more than I intended to! I'll shut up now. Richelle ---------- Hi, First post here. I was thinking about the Houses, and people we all seem to assume were in which when they were younger. Particularly Lily Potter and Dumbledore. I always figured Lily was in Gryffindor, but I don't recall reading anything in the books that supports this. Am I wrong? And as for Dumbledore, we only have Hagrid's word that he'd heard Dumbledore was in Gryffindor, but that (if he's really 180 years old, or whatever) isn't much to go on. I bet at least one of the two will turn out to have been in Slytherin. That would be interesting. It also seems likely that the four marauders were all Gryffindors, since they were constant companions of James, but I think that's all the proof we have. Take care, Kris __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From akirabou at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 14:09:14 2002 From: akirabou at yahoo.com (Kara) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:09:14 -0000 Subject: Upcoming deaths / SHIP Future romance / House assumptions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45228 talia wrote: >>>Okay, I know this is so late to be replying, but I've been busy major. I'm of the opinion that Harry can die. How? Harry, in a big battle with the Dark Lord sees the green flash coming and knows that AK will kill him. Just as it hits him, he wakes up in his cupboard under the stairs. Did you ever have one of those dreams where you're falling and you wake up just before you hit the ground?<<< That's a really long dream! I honestly hope the dream theory isn't how the book will end.. that seems rather anti-climatic to me. Alice in Wonderland didn't make lasting friendships, and achieve amazing things... she just wandered about and explored a really crazy world, that as a drea, doesn't bother me. Harry's life at Hogwarts being a dream would. Now, wether or not he could die... I'm expecting the unexpected, so I believe it's possible. It would be really sad, so I hope that isn't the ending, either. Lilac wrote: >>>I agree that something is planned for Neville, but what that is, I am not yet sure. There's a theory going around that he's had very strong memory charms put on him as a toddler because he saw his parents get crucio-ed, and that's why he is so forgetful and clumsy. Maybe those memory charms wil be removed and Neville will really come into his own, which I would love to see.<<< I'm hoping Neville gets his moment, too. I would love to see him kick some butt, that poor kid. That memory charm theory is interesting, too... On the topic of deaths.. if Lucius Malfoy is going to get killed, and a known character is going to do it.. I really hope it's Arthur Weasley. Dania wrote: >>>I really hope that JK fleshes out some more romantic storylines in the coming novels. I actually like the idea of Harry vieing with Ron for Hermione's affections.<<< I think that there will definatly be something between Ron and Hermione in future books, especially since in one interview (no, I don't have a source, just my memory) JKR said something along the lines of 'There's something going on, of course Ron doesn't realize it'. (Sorry to paraphrase.. if someone could find the original interview, that'd be great.) The only thing that makes me believe there will be something between Harry and Hermione, was the fact that she kissed him on the cheek at the end of GoF, and it was pointed out that that was something she had never done before. (I don't have that quote, either... my friend still has my copy of GoF). Of course, I believe that she did that because of his whole Cedric experience.. which was worse than anything else he'd been through. Added to the fact, that after all that, he had to go home with the Dursleys where he would have no friends / anyone to talk to. I think there is a big possibilty that Harry won't end up with anyone at the end of the books, or even during. He could be the lone hero (hehe). Afterall, they'll only be 17 years old at the end. I don't think he'll ever date Cho... Cho seems more to me the unattainable first crush that so many teenagers have. The person that is attractive and popular. He's barely had a conversation with her, and I just can't see her becoming a major character. Hermione is possible, but I just don't see them being anything more than friends. Ginny is possible, and I believe the most likely of all of them... but I think she would have to have a bigger part in the upcoming books. As for anyone else, who knows. Richelle wrote: >>>My theory has James in Gryffindor, Lupin in Ravenclaw (though the two could be switched, but I doubt it), Sirius in Slytherin, and Peter in Hufflepuff. (You know, the loyal one, "logical" choice for a secret keeper, the one both Sirius and James would agree could be the safest).<<< What an interesting theory, and one that I hope plays out. As I was reading your post, that's exactly where I thought each one would go. It would be very interesting to find out that Sirius was in Slytherin... it would give a new perspective on that house. Afterall, not every Slytherin is an evil bastard... that would be way too stereotypical, and why would you let them even attend Hogwarts? I could see Peter as a Hufflepuff, -much- more than I could imagine him as a Gryffindor. ~ Kara From anakinbester at hotmail.com Fri Oct 11 14:27:52 2002 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:27:52 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's bond with Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45229 CMC Wrote >I interpret this to signify that Wormtail is so ashamed of his treason, his betrayal of James and Lily, that he >wishes to avoid any real personal interaction with Harry >whatsoever. I interpreted that scene in that manner as well. I think it was an extremely important bit of interaction also. It shows that Peter does feel guilty about what he's doing and that he is ashamed. I try and point that out when I argue that he's not your standard run of the mill sniveling disneyesque sycophant. It seems very clear that he'd rather be doing anything else than what he's doing, and yet, for whatever psychological reasons, can not bring himself not to do them. His actions in that scene are also something that I'm using. I'm writing a small thiny abut the possibility of him being tortured physically and psychology, and how that would explain a heck of a lot of his behavior and even some of what he says in the shrieking shack. (yes, I got to the library and check out books on the psychological effects of torture so I can write that essay, but ask me if I've even gone to library to look up what books I might need for my modern art essay) The most interesting thing I've come across yet was this: "In some extreme cases [torture can] transform the victim into a collaborator, which is the maximum expression of the identification of the victim with the aggressor" Ok, pulling myself a little bit more on topic again: >We know as surely as anything in the JKR saga that Wormtail will >once more become Pettigrew and will turn on Voldemort. Yet the cost >is certain to be as immense as when another triple-traitor Caius >Marcius Coriolanus abandoned his vengeful schemes against his native >Rome, thus betraying his newfound Volscian allies...... well it's nice to see that someone else at least thinks that's going to happen, whether or not you think he deserves it. How that life debt will play out is one of my big questions right now. I wonder though, many people think that it will be some kind of magical compulsion, in which Peter must help Harry (in which case, it will be far less redeeming) but I sometimes wonder if it's even magical in that sense at all. Perhaps it's simply the only way Peter can put things right, and Peter has enough of a conscience to eventually act on it. Anything that can draw Peter out of the cowardly, masochistic, servile shell he's pulled himself into would seem to be a kind of magic to me. I say this because Snape seems to have had a similar debt with James, and so he saved Harry to clear it. however, don't you think Snape would have saved Harry no matter what? I think Snape is simply honorable in that way, and the debt merely acts as a rationalization for something Snape my not have particularly wanted to do, but had to do because in the end that's the kind of person he is. Does that make any kind of sense at all? My finale pondering is, ok, it's important that Voldemort has a bit of Harry in him. Is it important that he has a bit of Peter in him too? (was it here that it was brought up that Voldemort now has the flesh of a person in debt to Harry in him? I'm on so many forums about Peter that I get confused) -Ani From dicentra at xmission.com Fri Oct 11 15:02:39 2002 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:02:39 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Radio TBAY and the inconsistent behaviour of Albus Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45230 PIPSQUEAK: Dicentra on line 3. DICENTRA: Hello? Can you hear me? PIPSQUEAK: Turn your radio down, caller. DICENTRA: What? Oh. Um. I just wanted to point out that when Dumbledore is amused at Snape's fury, that's not the first time that night he'd been amused at someone's frustration. PIPSQUEAK: When would that be? DICENTRA: Earlier, when Tt!Harry and Tt!Hermione see what really happened when they went to excecute Buckbeak. They found him gone, and the executioner says: "It was tied here!" said the executioner furiously. "I just saw it. Just here!" "How extraordinary," said Dumbledore. There was a note of amusement in his voice. Then later.... "Mcnair, if Buckbeak has indeed been stolen, do you really think the thief will have led him away on foot?" said Dumbledore, still sounding amused. You see, Dumbledore is amused at their fury (Snape's and Mcnair's) because he knows they have been thwarted, and he knows *he's* the one who orchestrated it. Dumbledore is often amused by his own cleverness, as seen in PP/PS when he confides to Harry that hiding the Stone in Erised was one of his better ideas. Snape and Mcnair are both trying to accomplish something that Dumbledore doesn't want done, and without their knowing, Dumbledore fools them both. I'd be amused, too. --Dicentra, who'd like to say hi to her mom on the air, ok? From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 15:09:25 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] House assumptions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021011150925.59517.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45231 Kara wrote: talia wrote: Richelle wrote: >>>My theory has James in Gryffindor, Lupin in Ravenclaw (though the two could be switched, but I doubt it), Sirius in Slytherin, and Peter in Hufflepuff. (You know, the loyal one, "logical" choice for a secret keeper, the one both Sirius and James would agree could be the safest).<<< What an interesting theory, and one that I hope plays out. As I was reading your post, that's exactly where I thought each one would go. It would be very interesting to find out that Sirius was in Slytherin... it would give a new perspective on that house. Afterall, not every Slytherin is an evil bastard... that would be way too stereotypical, and why would you let them even attend Hogwarts? I could see Peter as a Hufflepuff, -much- more than I could imagine him as a Gryffindor. Me: I'm baffled. I have no clue as to why folks regularly bring up the possibility that Lily or any of the Marauders might not have been in Gryffindor. Where are you getting this idea? From the books we see that cross-house friendships are extremely rare. (The only one we really see is Percy's relationship with Penelope, and that seemed to develop out of their both being prefects and presumably having contact--no pun intended--because of their duties or possibly compulsory meetings.) The likelihood of four students spread across all of the houses bonding in friendship to the point where they are working on becoming illegal Animagi together for the sake of one of the friends and then regularly sneaking out of four different houses to accompany Remus during the full moon just strikes me as patently absurd. James and Sirius are described as being close as brothers, for instance, which would be highly unlikely if they were in separate houses. Sirius knew the entrance to Gryffindor Tower was the portrait of the Fat Lady. Some of Sirius' contempt for Snape seems to stem from Snape's being a Slytherin, so it's highly unlikely that Sirius is a Slytherin. As for Remus, the most likely way that the others discovered he was a werewolf would either be their noticing his absence from the dorm three nights a month or his telling them outright that that's why he was out of the dorm three nights a month. Revelations of this sort are very unlikely among students who are not living together. Peter seems so much at the fringes (see McGonagall's description of his tagging after the others in the Three Broomsticks scene in PoA where Harry is hiding under the table listening to the professors, Fudge and Madam Rosmerta) that it is highly unlikely that he would be included in this group at all unless he was in the same house. If Harry is very much like his father (which I suspect he is) James would probably have balked at the idea of excluding Peter from his, Remus' and Sirius' adventures. As for Peter being loyal enough for Hufflepuff, his actions speak for themselves. Highly unlikely. Bravery, on the other hand...He may seem like a craven coward so far, but I think we've already seen one instance of rather gruesome bravery that contradicts the idea of cowardly Peter: his cutting off his own hand to give Voldemort his body back. How many people would have the nerve to do that? We might not agree with his motivations (helping the evilest dark wizard there is) but it took a great deal of bravery nonetheless. I also believe it took some bravery to learn to become an Animagus in secret in order to accompany a werewolf. If he failed and reverted to human form, he could have been killed by Remus. No, I do not believe Peter is lacking in bravery. Scruples he certainly seems to lack (and whether he's redeemable in that regard may yet be seen); bravery, hardly. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cindysphynx at comcast.net Fri Oct 11 16:43:49 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:43:49 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Radio TBAY and the inconsistent behaviour of Albus Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45232 PIPSQUEAK: Great news! You're Caller 169! Are you ready to play? CINDY: Huh? PIPSQUEAK: *Play,* I said! Are you ready to play? If you can tell us the titles and artists of the last 5 songs we just played on the air, you'll win tickets to the concert of your choice, anywhere in the world! CINDY: Look, I don't care about that. I want to talk to Dumbledore. I want an explanation for inconsistencies in his characterization. I mean, sometimes I wonder if the man is completely *insane.* PIPSQUEAK: Oooh, that's a pretty Big accusation, caller. You got any canon for that? CINDY: You bet I do. Right in the very first chapter of the series, in fact. Dumbledore shows up on Privet Drive. He knows the Potters have been killed. He knows that this Fidelius Charm thing he cooked up led directly to their slaughter. He knows that he should have persuaded James to make him the Secret Keeper. He has reason to think the Potters were betrayed by Sirius Black, James' best friend. PIPSQUEAK: Go on, caller. CINDY: Yet Dumbledore is *smiling* and popping *candy* into his mouth! "'Fancy seeing you here, Professor McGonagall.' He turned to smile at the tabby, but it had gone." And there he is, trying to unstick candies when he can't be sure Hagrid will even succeed in his mission to bring Harry to Privet Drive in one piece! PIPSQUEAK: Whoa! That's pretty Tough talk, caller. Doesn't Dumbledore say that he'd trust Hagrid with his life? So what makes you think he lacks confidence in Hagrid? CINDY: Hagrid is late, and when he finally turns up, Dumbledore "sounded relieved." So if Dumbledore is worried and should be racked with guilt because the whole operation had been so badly botched, what's up with the smile, the candy and the earmuff wisecracks? Has the man no *soul?* PIPSQUEAK: You make a good point, caller. But . . . are you sure you don't want to try to identify the last 5 songs we played on the air? CINDY: All *right,* then! Let's see . . . "Copacabana," "I'd Really Love To See You Tonight," "I Write The Songs," "Looks Like We Made It", and "Can't Smile Without You." And the artist is the man Rolling Stone Magazine once called, "A giant among entertainers." Barry Manilow! PIPSQUEAK: That's -- that's *right,* caller! You win! Now, what concert would you like to see. We can get you anything you like, you name it. CINDY: Mmmm, I think I'll take two for the Barry Manilow concert in Akron, Ohio, if that's all right. PIPSQUEAK: Barry Manilow? In Akron? Uh, caller, I can get you *any* tickets to *any* concert *anywhere* in the world. Are you sure about that? CINDY: 100 percent sure. Stoned!Harry's a Big Manilow fan, and he's going to go with. It's the least I can do for the kid. ************ Cindy *********** For an explanation of the soothing music of Barry Manilow, including his Barryography, check out: http://www.barrynet.com/hismusic.html From snowwy54 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 16:51:30 2002 From: snowwy54 at yahoo.com (Susan Snow) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] House assumptions In-Reply-To: <20021011150925.59517.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021011165130.67737.qmail@web14706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45233 If I am not mistaken when Lupin had Harry in his office he said something about the next quidditch match. Although he was not supposed to take sides. This to me indicated that Lupin is a former Gryffindor. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From potter76 at libero.it Fri Oct 11 15:21:47 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:21:47 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort and AK (was:Re: Why is AK unforgiveable) References: Message-ID: <3DA6EC8B.000001.41737@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 45234 Eloise wrote: >> A question that arises is, how vulnerable is Voldemort now? >> *Could* an AK work on him, now he has a body again, or is he still >> too inhuman? Grey Wolf: >The potion he took made him mortal once again [cut] Me: Is this part of MAGIC DISHWASHER or there is some sort of evidence that he's mortal again? To have a body is not the same as being mortal, as I see it. He had a body when the AK rebounded and even though this was destroyed he didn't die. I completely share in Eloise's doubts. >Speaking of which, if you are a follower of MAGIC DISHWASHER, there is >one more thing you have to consider: the potion Volodemort used was >flawed, and it will, in the end, prove to be one of the reasons for his >downfall - or at least that seems to be Dumbledore's plan. May I add that even without being a follower of MD one can believe, as I do, that the potion is flawed and LV biggest problems will come from this? R. From sherryblu at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 16:24:05 2002 From: sherryblu at yahoo.com (sherryblu) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:24:05 -0000 Subject: Pondering "Death Eaters" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45235 Why, specifically, are the Death Eaters so called? Does this have something to do with Voldemort's unspeakable ventures he has done in his attempts to avoid death? Do his followers, or perhaps only his inner circle, aspire to thwart death also? . . . by "eating" death? Or is this just name to give V.'s followers, just something to call them? Rowling usually has layers of reasons for names, you know. Interesting to ponder. Sherryblu From ronib at mindspring.com Fri Oct 11 16:45:58 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:45:58 -0000 Subject: Arthur Weasley & Imperius Curse (was Re: TBAY: Missing Theory) In-Reply-To: <004a01c270c7$a8fab280$a89dcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45236 Richelle: >>First, I agree with the above mentioned post, based on Moody/Crouch's actions in the DADA class (calling on Neville for Cruciatus curse answer, drawing attention to Harry after AK, etc.) it is highly likely that Arthur was somewhere along the way a victim of the Imperius curse. Futhermore, Harry's parents were killed by AK, one of the unforgiveables; Neville's parents were driven insane by the Cruciatus curse, another of the unforgiveables; therefore it would make sense that someone's parents were in some way tortured by the third and final unforgiveable, the Imperius. And the only one mentioned in relation to this was Arthur Weasley (and Ron, for being called on to give the answer). But how? My personal opinion ties this in with the Weasley family's absolute horror at the name "Voldemort" and Arthur's recollections of the dark mark. Could a DE (or Voldemort himself, for that matter) have put Arthur Weasley under an Imperius curse, had him kill one or more of his own children, leave the dark mark, and return to the DE's so they could laugh about it? There's definitely a missing Weasley or two in there (what family who loves having children so much goes what, six years without at least one?)>> Veronica: Yes, I love the symmetry (as Elkins described it) of that scene. It says so much about Moody!Crouch that he brings attention to Neville in regards to Cruciatus (which for some reason is always Crustaceous in my head), and Harry in regards to AK. It just adds a nice parallel that if Arthur had been enslaved at some point by the Imperius that he call on Ron. In fact, I think Moody is the key to this whole theory. Why was it Arthur who had to help out Moody the morning the kids left for Hogwarts? Yes, it could just be that they are old friends, but my gut tells me there is something more here. Perhaps, as I think Elkins suggested (forgive me if it was someone else), it was Moody that investigated his case. I personally don't see Moody doing much investigating; I think perhaps he "caught" Arthur, or the person doing the spell, and broke the spell. Still, I think Moody was involved in clearing his name, thus the deep respect on Arthur's part. It also makes sense that some families might be more vulnerable to the Imperius curse. After all children of alcoholics are more likely to be alcoholics. Perhaps there is a gene that some have that make them less able to fight off that curse. That would explain why Ron has a more difficult time with that curse in DADA class. Another idea, perhaps part of the reason Arthur never advanced far in the MOM, apart from his love of all things Muggle, is that he is still partly ashamed of what he might have done--even though he wasn't conscious of his actions. I also agree that this would explain the family's "absolute horror" at LV's name, thought I have not been able to determine if their terror is any more acute than that of others in the WW. Just not enough evidence so far. As for the infamous "Missing Weasley Child", I personally own no FEATHERBOAS, and flinch from the idea that Arthur killed his own child, Imperius Curse or no. BUT, perhaps, after Arthur freed himself of said curse, angry Death Eaters sought vengence by killing the "Missing Weasley Child." Thus Arthur could have come home to be greeted by the Dark Mark hovering above the Burrow. Like I said, a lovely theory in its subtlety, and it plays well with a number of other theories, as well. I hope it soon earns its own ship! Veronica From akirabou at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 16:49:57 2002 From: akirabou at yahoo.com (Kara) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:49:57 -0000 Subject: House assumptions In-Reply-To: <20021011150925.59517.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45237 Barb wrote: >>> I'm baffled. I have no clue as to why folks regularly bring up the possibility that Lily or any of the Marauders might not have been in Gryffindor. Where are you getting this idea? From the books we see that cross-house friendships are extremely rare. <<< Ah, you made some really excellent points that I hadn't even thought of. I suppose I thought it would be a interesting to have the cross-house friendships... you'd think that would happen more often, really. I mean, it's not like the houses are completely segregated, or that each house is so completely different than each other (except for Slytherin, I suppose). But everything you said, about Sirius and James being so close, Siris' contempt for Snape (much like Harry and Draco, perhaps), to Peter's bravery in cutting off his hand.. that all makes sense. What really bugs me is the fact that it seems that all Slytherin's are evil jerks. Or at least the ones who have lines and such in the books. Slytherin's are supposed to be ambitious and cunning. Those aren't bad things. It just doesn't make sense to me that they would all be bad. ~ Kara From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Oct 11 17:20:49 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:20:49 -0000 Subject: House assumptions In-Reply-To: <8170560.1034443273197.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45238 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rvotaw at i... wrote: > I think that Harry's big shock will come when he finds > out his beloved godfather was in Slytherin. There is bound to be someone who Harry likes that turns out to have been a Slytherin, and Sirius seems the most likely candidate for that. I have not thought of that possibility before but I like it-mainly because it supports my pet theory that the issue of choice is the central theme of the series. This would perfectly illustrate that no matter what your "designation" might be- which route you will take is strictly up to you. bugaloo37 From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Oct 11 18:11:22 2002 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:11:22 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arthur Weasley & Imperius Curse (was Re: TBAY: Missing Theory) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24611487712.20021011111122@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 45239 Hi, Friday, October 11, 2002, 9:45:58 AM, Veronica wrote: > It also makes sense that some families might be more vulnerable to > the Imperius curse. After all children of alcoholics are more likely > to be alcoholics. Interesting theory, but I don't think alcoholism and the Imperius curse are really all that comparable, unless the curse changes something in the gene make-up of the father or mother, or let's say Molly was under the Imperius curse while pregnant with Ron or one or more of her other children. > Perhaps there is a gene that some have that make > them less able to fight off that curse. Maybe. I wonder why false Moody mentioned it had to do with strength of character. Was it true, or just something he said to make Harry feel stronger, or his peers feel badly about their lack of character strength? > That would explain why Ron > has a more difficult time with that curse in DADA class. The thing is, looking at GoF, Harry seems to be the *only* one, who could fight, and even completely shake off the curse. >From GoF CHAPTER FIFTEEN - BEAUXBATONS AND DURMSTRANG ************** Lavender Brown imitated a squirrel. Neville performed a series of quite astonishing gymnastics he would certainly not have been capable of in his normal state. Not one of them seemed to be able to fight off the curse, and each of them recovered only when Moody had removed it. *************** and after the class *************** "Yeah, I know," said Ron, who was skipping on every alternate step. He had had much more difficulty with the curse than Harry, though Moody assured him the effects would wear off by lunchtime. *************** JKR doesn't let us know anywhere, if any of the other kids managed to resist or shake off the curse. Curiously, we hear nothing about how Hermione fared. Maybe Moody didn't call on her for this experiment? So, while Ron had a lot more trouble than Harry, it sounds as if everyone else in the class did, too. At least, I assume Harry would have found it important enough to notice, if one or more of his classmates had managed to make some headway in resisting the Imperius curse. I do think there is a very good possibility that Arthur knows a lot more (personally) than he ever wanted to about the curse! -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From oppen at mycns.net Fri Oct 11 04:48:36 2002 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:48:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DISHWASHER Objection References: Message-ID: <000401c27154$f76b6f80$b3560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 45240 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > > > All Dumbledore had to do was have an agent keep a secret > > > watch on the graveyard. Dobby would be ideal. He can conceal > > > himself and and he can transport himself instantly to Hogwarts. > > > Dobby could have reported to Dumbledore as soon as the > > > re-embodiment was begun. > > > disembodied> > > > Any agent sent by Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to pass > undetected > > for such a long time. Besides, the gathering didn't necessary have > to > > happen in the graveyard: Peter could have sneaked in with a > shovel, > > take a sample and left, and any agent around wouldn't have dared > follow > > him (and if he did, he'd soon join Frank in death, whatever excuse > he > > would use). And, of course, Dumbledore cannot risk that Voldemort > > starts asking questions about the potion. He wants him to use it > by > > making it the easiest option (as if he knew nothing about it). Actually, had I been D'dore and known that the way V'mort was going to revive himself involved "bone of the father," I'd have been pretty quick to make sure that said bone was _not_ available. Playing "musical coffins" (IOW either switching the tombstones around so that Riddle Sr's stone was over some poor unrelated schmuck, or switching the coffins themselves around) would have ensured that when W'tail did his spell, it would not have worked as planned. ("Wormtail, you IMBECILE!" shrieks Voldemort, who just found out the hard way that the old prankster Dumbledore emptied out his daddy's coffin and replaced all the bones with those of a sheep, "How am I going to impress my Death Eaters looking like THIS? You ba-a-a-a-d wizard, you!") Or if they have qualms about that, the coffin could have been disinterred and cremated (if necessary, the government could order this---the Minister of Magic goes to see the Muggle PM, and hey presto, whatever paperwork is needed magically appears!) or buried at sea. In any case, once "bone of the father" is no longer available or accessable, bang goes V'mort's chances for re-embodying himself. I would have to say that there were probably several ways in which V'mort could get himself a body back, and it just so happened that the formula we know and love from GoF was either the easiest to do, the fastest, or the most effective. If there were ten or twelve routes back to embodiment for V'mort---or nobody _knew_ about the Dark Magicks he apparently adapted to his fell purpose---then putting a guard on the graveyard would either not prevent him coming back, or not be known to be a useful precaution. From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 18:47:51 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House assumptions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021011184751.23467.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45241 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rvotaw at i... wrote: > I think that Harry's big shock will come when he finds > out his beloved godfather was in Slytherin. There is bound to be someone who Harry likes that turns out to have been a Slytherin, and Sirius seems the most likely candidate for that. Me: Actually, Sirius is an extremely unlikely candidate for that, as per my previous post. But I do believe that Snape is being put in a position to be a "good" Slytherin, and that when Harry finds out what dangerous work Dumbledore has assigned to him he will be suitably impressed, even if he doesn't want to exchange Christmas gifts with him. As for someone else Harry likes turning out to be from Slytherin, there are a number of possibilities. I like the idea of the real Moody being a Slytherin. As an Auror, being able to think like the people he's trying to catch would be a great advantage. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Oct 11 18:50:29 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:50:29 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Radio TBAY and the inconsistent behaviour of Albus Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45242 Let's join the TBAY crew in The Green Room of TBAY studios, for a little post show analysis. Pippin inserts a tape of the latest broadcast in the player, and a rather tinny rendition of Pipsqueak's voice imitating that of an elderly man is heard: > Yes, it's that wretched Chapter 22 of PoA, with Severus > losing his temper in front of the Minister for Magic. I'm afraid > that I really don't find my looking `as though he was quite enjoying > himself' in character. It's not very kindly. Pippin shuts off the player and says: "You know, I'm reminded of a similar debate in The Lord of the Rings " (Eileen's eyes gleam brightly while everyone else dives behind the sofa and sticks their fingers in their ears) " in The Two Towers, Book Four, chapter 3. " Pippin clears her throat, opens a very battered leatherbound deluxe edition of LOTR and reads as follows: "It had always been a notion of [Sam's] that the kindness of dear Mr. Frodo was of such a high degree that it must imply a fair degree of blindness. Of course he also firmly held the incompatible belief that Mr. Frodo was the wisest person in the world (with the possible exception of old Mr. Bilbo and Albus Dum )- er, I mean Gandalf, sorry about that." Pippin closes the book and continues: "See, I think some people make the same mistake as Sam, confusing blindness and kindness. Dumbledore shows no inclination to comfort people who suffer on account of their own ill will, whether it's Slytherin House in Book One, Filch in Book Two, Snape in Book Three, or Barty Crouch Jr. in Book Four. "Now, Snape is so enraged at Black's escape because he, like Filch, wanted to see some punishment. He said so in the Shack, "Vengeance is very sweet...How I hoped I would be the one to catch you.." And Snape believes that Sirius wanted to murder Harry and that Harry has been bewitched into helping Black escape. .." "He *says* he believes," mutters Pipsqueak. But Pippin ignores her and goes on: "So, what did Snape expect to find when he entered the Hospital Wing? Harry should have been gone, or worse. His presence, lying unharmed in the bed, is proof that, whatever else is going on, Black was indeed not there to murder Harry. Dumbledore, of course, opens the door knowing exactly what Snape is going to find and is highly amused. Why shouldn't he be? "And if Snape is acting in that scene, shouldn't Dumbledore be acting too? Looking puzzled, like Fudge, or concerned instead of openly amused? You would expect Fudge to show some annoyance with Dumbledore for taking the situation lightly, but there's no sign of that, is there? Rowling doesn't have to write, "Dumbledore was looking highly amused but the others didn't appear to notice" because it's clear from the context. And when Dumbledore does speak to Snape, he does so "quietly", just as he spoke "patiently" to Filch in Book Two. " Pipsqueak jumps up at this and fast forwards the tape a little more: > But I really don't think I should be > enjoying myself in that scene. One of my teachers has just > completely lost his temper in front of Fudge; which would really be > rather like a muggle shouting at President Bush, and I seem to be > finding it rather funny. Pippin grins: "Er, well, it's all down to what one thinks of the politician in question, isn't it? Some people might find that situation rather funny, I think. Besides, politicians get shouted at a lot. They're used to it. " But Pipsqueak forwards the tape again: > Yes, I know, but what troubles me is that he's been > recently knocked unconscious for nearly an hour, Pippin nods sagely. "Oh, I see. Yes, that could be a serious injury, possibly a concussion or even a fractured skull. However, as we're dealing with a fictional character we must always first rule out anaesthesia dramatis." Pipsqueak frowns. "Anaesth-what? I never heard of it. " Pippin grins again. "Of course you haven't. It's a purely fictional condition, in which characters who are knocked out suffer no ill effects other than an artistically drawn thread of blood on the temple. Other indications are: missing out on an important revelation or being transported to some place they wouldn't willingly have gone. It's very common--in books, movies and TV shows, that is. "Of course, fictional characters do get concussion sometimes, but in that case they have uneven pupils, obvious signs of pain such as groaning and clutching at the head, and confinement for observation. Snape doesn't get any of that, you see. So, not seriously injured. Just a nasty bump on the head, nothing to worry about." Pipsqueak pulls out a polkadot flag and chucks it at Pippin. "Meta-thinking!" she squeaks. "That's a penalty." "Oh come," says Pippin. "This whole list is *about* meta-thinking. And Theory Bay is Meta-meta thinking. We're not only discussing the characters as characters, we're discussing *ourselves* as characters. Pipsqueak jumps to her feet indignantly, forgetting that she did so already. "But SpyGames and 'I expect you to die Mr Potter' are not theories which rely on meta-thinking, and therefore they shouldn't be criticized using meta-thinking. They're about real spies!" "Real spies?" Pippin looks puzzled. "What real spies? The only 'real spies' anyone's referred to in this discussion are characters in the work of Ian Fleming, John LeCarre and Tom Clancy. Not a real spy in the lot. Look at the titles of your posts, for goodness sake! What most of us know about real spies is filtered through novels and films, or documents released years and years after the fact. People who are actually doing secret work aren't at liberty to say so, are they? The 'real spy' is a literary construct. " Pipsqueak looks obstinate. "I still say you can't refute an argument that's not based in aesthetic considerations by citing aesthetic considerations." "Well, maybe not refute." Pippin concedes. "But reject, certainly. If you say you like black because it's serviceable, there's no reason I can't say I prefer blue because it's prettier. "If Albus Dumbledore knows nearly all about nearly everything, as he seems to in Book One, it makes it very hard to accept that he was utterly taken in by the Crouch Moody deception. If he saw through the Marauders, and knew all about Peter, there's no groundwork for his having been fooled by Crouch. I find that aesthetically displeasing. "But if Dumbledore's omniscience is a comforting illusion which is slowly dispelled, then what we see is a sort of religious parallel-- Harry first sees Dumbledore as an all powerful and benevolent but distant being. This being controls his destiny and can intervene to protect him in miraculous ways, but has inexplicably abandoned him to a world of suffering. But as Harry grows, he begins to see Dumbledore as a mentor and friend, immeasurably wiser than himself but still fallible, far more benevolent but not infinitely so, someone whose power is limited but whose love is unconditional--as long as we don't expect blindness instead of kindness, that is." Pippin From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Fri Oct 11 19:36:51 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:36:51 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DISHWASHER Objection References: <000401c27154$f76b6f80$b3560043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45243 "I would have to say that there were probably several ways in which V'mort could get himself a body back, and it just so happened that the formula we know and love from GoF was either the easiest to do, the fastest, or the most effective. If there were ten or twelve routes back to embodiment for V'mort---or nobody _knew_ about the Dark Magicks he apparently adapted to his fell purpose---then putting a guard on the graveyard would either not prevent him coming back, or not be known to be a useful precaution." I don't know if any of you read 'Judge Dredd', but there's a character called Judge Death who's catchphase (used to taunt judges') is "You cannot kill what does not live". In PS, Dumbledore says that Voldemort can never die, does he mean that if he remains as a ghost Voldemort can't be destroyed? Certainly Peeves is very annoying, but no one seems to be able to get rid of him - or does he serve some useful purpose? Therefore, disposing of Voldemort completly requires that Voldemort be back as flesh and blood. If Voldemort remains as a ghost, he's effectily powerless, which means that the contest between him and Dumbledore is in stalemate - which can only end with Voldemort winning - because Dumbledore himself is mortal and one day will die. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Oppen To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 5:48 AM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: DISHWASHER Objection > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > > > All Dumbledore had to do was have an agent keep a secret > > > watch on the graveyard. Dobby would be ideal. He can conceal > > > himself and and he can transport himself instantly to Hogwarts. > > > Dobby could have reported to Dumbledore as soon as the > > > re-embodiment was begun. > > > disembodied> > > > Any agent sent by Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to pass > undetected > > for such a long time. Besides, the gathering didn't necessary have > to > > happen in the graveyard: Peter could have sneaked in with a > shovel, > > take a sample and left, and any agent around wouldn't have dared > follow > > him (and if he did, he'd soon join Frank in death, whatever excuse > he > > would use). And, of course, Dumbledore cannot risk that Voldemort > > starts asking questions about the potion. He wants him to use it > by > > making it the easiest option (as if he knew nothing about it). Actually, had I been D'dore and known that the way V'mort was going to revive himself involved "bone of the father," I'd have been pretty quick to make sure that said bone was _not_ available. Playing "musical coffins" (IOW either switching the tombstones around so that Riddle Sr's stone was over some poor unrelated schmuck, or switching the coffins themselves around) would have ensured that when W'tail did his spell, it would not have worked as planned. ("Wormtail, you IMBECILE!" shrieks Voldemort, who just found out the hard way that the old prankster Dumbledore emptied out his daddy's coffin and replaced all the bones with those of a sheep, "How am I going to impress my Death Eaters looking like THIS? You ba-a-a-a-d wizard, you!") Or if they have qualms about that, the coffin could have been disinterred and cremated (if necessary, the government could order this---the Minister of Magic goes to see the Muggle PM, and hey presto, whatever paperwork is needed magically appears!) or buried at sea. In any case, once "bone of the father" is no longer available or accessable, bang goes V'mort's chances for re-embodying himself. I would have to say that there were probably several ways in which V'mort could get himself a body back, and it just so happened that the formula we know and love from GoF was either the easiest to do, the fastest, or the most effective. If there were ten or twelve routes back to embodiment for V'mort---or nobody _knew_ about the Dark Magicks he apparently adapted to his fell purpose---then putting a guard on the graveyard would either not prevent him coming back, or not be known to be a useful precaution. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Fri Oct 11 20:27:10 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:27:10 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort and AK (was:Re: Why is AK unforgiveable) In-Reply-To: <3DA6EC8B.000001.41737@i3a2c5> References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021011205235.0096f620@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45244 At 17:21 11/10/02 +0200, Rita wrote: >Is this part of MAGIC DISHWASHER or there is some sort of evidence that he's >mortal again? To have a body is not the same as being mortal, as I see it. >He had a body when the AK rebounded and even though this was destroyed he >didn't die. I completely share in Eloise's doubts. From the speech to the DEs, it would seem that Voldemort is mortal again: "But I was willing to embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortality. I set my sights lower ... I would settle for my old body back again, and my old strength. I knew that to achieve this - it is an old piece of Dark Magic, the potion that revived me tonight - I would need three powerful ingredients. (etc)" What I find interesting in that is the phrase "my old body". Now, as far as we know, Voldemort has had four states: first as Tom Riddle, second the form he had after the "changes" Dumbledore mentioned he underwent upon leaving Hogwarts, third the pure spirit form after the AK rebound off him, and fourth the ugly baby form we met at the beginning of GoF. To which "old body" is he referring? His incarnation as all-powerful Voldemort was quasi-immortal (if not truly immortal; my reading of canon is inconclusive - for instance, in the above quote, does "chasing immortality AGAIN" imply that his previous chase was successful, or not?), so it can't be this one (in his speech, Voldemort "settles" for that incarnation). Obviously it's not Vapour!Mort nor is it Baby!Mort, which would indicate that post rebirthing, he should have resumed Tom Riddle's human form. Which he patently does not. Any views? > >Speaking of which, if you are a follower of MAGIC DISHWASHER, there is > >one more thing you have to consider: the potion Volodemort used was > >flawed, and it will, in the end, prove to be one of the reasons for his > >downfall - or at least that seems to be Dumbledore's plan. > > >May I add that even without being a follower of MD one can believe, as I do, >that the potion is flawed and LV biggest problems will come from this? My own view (as a non-MD follower - have my recent posts left any doubt?) :-) is that the potion itself wasn't flawed; i.e. the "recipe" was correctly put together and the ingredients obviously worked. What was flawed was the insistence on using Harry's blood, which clearly is special in some way we have yet to discover, hence THAT Gleam. In the long term, Voldemort will discover that choosing a lesser enemy's blood may have been a wiser choice... From speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 11 21:00:38 2002 From: speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com (frankielee242) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:00:38 -0000 Subject: Lucius Factor (was Snape and Quirrellmort/MAGIC DISHWASHER) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45245 Grey Wolf wrote: > I hadn't actually considered that fact before, but it helps explain > something that has been in my mind for a few days now. MAGIC DISHWASHER > is based on an information war, which in turn requires spies. Now, in > PS, Voldemort was going solo most of the time, and if he did contact > Lucius to put in motion the Diary idea, I think it would have been > later on, from Hogwarts (after testing the defenses of the stone). > There is really no room for a spy that could've tipped off Dumbledore > about Voldemort's return and plans. The idea that Voldemort somehow contacted Lucius and told him put the whole CoS diary fiasco in motion bothers me. Here's why. Grey Wolf, please don't bite me just yet. Lucius uses the attacks at Hogwarts to remove Dumbledore (temporarily as it turned out) from the school. In the confrontation in Hagrid's hut, Lucius Malfoy over-rides the Minister of Magic and insists that Dumbledore step down. Fudge blusters, but does what Lucius says. Once Dumbledor has left, we hear Draco smarming up to Professor Snape by suggesting that Snape take over as Headmaster. Later, Draco says McGonagall won't last long as the head of the school. While our bouncing ferret boy may not know who is opening the chamber of secrets, he probably knows Lucius has plans for changing the way Hogwarts is run. At the end when Lucius bursts into Dumbledore's study and attempts to bully him back out of Hogwarts (supported by the legal documents to prove Dumbledore was suspended by all twelve governers), Dumbledore shuts him up by saying he has letters from the other governers asking him to return (that give legal testimony they had been coerced into complying with Lucius in the first place). THEN, Dumbledore says of the MoM that "...for a start, Arthur Weasley's Muggle Protection Act would have failed... " (I think that's right, my books are at home) which would imply more MoM policies than just the Muggle Protection Act were on the chopping block. I appologize if I've botched the quote. To me, this indicates that Lucius is entrenched and rather powerful in the MoM, and is looking to take over Hogwarts as well. He's obivously in good standing with the Minister-- think of Fudge's incredulous reaction to Harry's assertion that Lucius Malfoy was present at Lord Voldemort's ressurection at the end of GoF. Also, think of the events at the Quidditch World Cup in GoF. First we see the Malfoys attending as Fudge's guests in the top box. That night, Draco admits (in not so many words) that his parents are in the crowd of DEs levitating the muggle family THAT ALL DISAPPARATE when Barty Crouch fires the dark mark into the sky. To me, that says Lucius is perfectly happy about Lord Voldemort's absence and is busy advancing his own agendas, NOT Lord Voldemort's. Plus, in the graveyard scene in GoF, Lord Voldemort accuses all assembled DEs of abandoning him and of running from his mark when a faithful DE cast it into the sky at the QWC, Lucius included. I think he may even be speaking directly to Lucius when he makes the accusation about the QWC, and I'll check GoF when I get home. I agree with the many other HPfGU posts that assert Lucius's ambition may contribute to Lord Voldemort's downfall, but I would like to point out again that the WW is not entirely opposed to Lord Voldemort's ideals. At the QWC, the ministry officials have to fight through a crowd around the marching DEs. That crowd is pointing up at the muggles and laughing, not trying to rescue them. Later Grey Wolf wrote: > Besides, I, like Pip, don't understand what's so wrong with being the > "pawn". It's the pawn that, in the end, becomes the hero, *even in > chess*. The pawn is one of the most important pieces, because it is > useful both at the very begining and at the very end of a chess match: > if a pawn reaches the other side, he bacomes a queen, the most powerful > piece in the game. And I think (outside any theories, and indulging in > meta-thinking) that the same thing will happen to Harry: in the end, he > will be the "queen" of Dumbledore's side, and it will be thanks to > *his* powers that they will win. I don't see what's wrong with that. I agree. Especially if the war against Lord Voldemort is a covert one. I wonder if the "pawn reaching the other side of the chessboard to become a queen" will also happen to Ron and/or Hermione. Despite the chess match in PS/SS, I don't think Ron is going to be killed off-- doesn't JKR reassure fans that Ron will be okay in a couple of interviews? Please tell me the week is over and that I can go home now. One Frazzled Frankie From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Oct 11 21:26:58 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:26:58 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's bond with Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45246 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "anakinbester" wrote: > > My finale pondering is, ok, it's important that Voldemort has a bit > of Harry in him. Is it important that he has a bit of Peter in him > too? (was it here that it was brought up that Voldemort now has the > flesh of a person in debt to Harry in him? I'm on so many forums > about Peter that I get confused) > You would think so-wouldn't you? I really like this idea. I also like the idea of something inherited from Lily being utilized by Harry to defeat Voldemort. Why?- you may ask. Because IMO, it would be so sweet a victory if something inherited from someone who has been summarily dismissed as unworthy because of her muggle-born status by Voldemort was at least in some way responsible for his defeat. I know that Lily's love, of course, carried a certain amount of protection. But, IMO, I believe we have much more to learn about Lily -and part of that is bound to be what powers she had and what she may have passed on to her son (how about those green eyes?- JKR has said we are going to learn more about them). bugaloo37-who says to JKR-more about Lily-Please? From sublime_muffin at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 17:34:07 2002 From: sublime_muffin at yahoo.com (Dania Strong) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:34:07 -0000 Subject: On Harry Potter and Arthurian Legends Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45247 I am remebering reading something somewhere on JK Rowling saying that some of HP mythology is inspired by Arthurian legends. I did a google- whack, and although I could not again find that particular Rowling quote to verfy it, I did find this sight... http://www.geocities.com/harrypotterwizardry/Harry_and_Arthur.html ...and I must say it provides interesting fodder in looking at the HP books, as well as in contemplating possible future story lines. Although it is true that other myths are drawn upon as well, if I was right about that quote the Arthuring legends are particularily interesting stories to compare and contrast. Does anyone else remember reading that quote somewhere by Rowling? I think it was in her biography but I can't remember exactly. :)Dania From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 17:52:07 2002 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:52:07 -0000 Subject: House assumptions In-Reply-To: <20021011165130.67737.qmail@web14706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45248 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Susan Snow wrote: > If I am not mistaken when Lupin had Harry in his > office he said something about the next quidditch > match. Although he was not supposed to take sides. > This to me indicated that Lupin is a former Gryffindor. > I don't have the book in front of me but the dialogue went something like, "lets drink to a Gryffindor victory, although as a teacher I'm not supposed to take sides" I don't see this as an indication that Lupin was a Gryffindor. He was just wishing Harry (his favourite student perhaps?) good luck in the next match. Remember, the whole point of the anti-Dementor lessons (to Harry anyway, and maybe just on the surface of his consciousness, but that's another story) was so he wouldn't fall off his broom if the dementors invaded the pitch again. Harry kept saying he had to keep at it so Gryffindor could win at Quiddich. Under the circumstances, Lupin was hardly going to say, "well, Harry. I'd wish you luck but 18 years ago I was in Ravenclaw so I hope they mop the floor with you" -Ing From sgarfio at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 21:07:01 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] House assumptions In-Reply-To: <20021011150925.59517.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021011210701.77433.qmail@web21406.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45249 Barb said: > I'm baffled. I have no clue as to why folks regularly bring up the > possibility that Lily or any of the Marauders might not have been in > Gryffindor. Where are you getting this idea? First, the easy one: Hagrid's comment in PS/SS (sorry, don't have the book with me) that states that there was never a witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. Since at that point Sirius was in Azkaban (although we, the readers, didn't yet know it, Hagrid did), we must assume that Sirius was in Slytherin. Now, I usually don't put much faith in such blanket statements, especially from Hagrid, but there you are. Now for some more thoughtful reasons. Perhaps the Marauders had a higher purpose in mind, such as uniting the four Houses, or forming a group that would benefit from the strengths of each House's iconic virtue. A group with talents that include intelligence, bravery, loyalty, and ambition would undoubtedly achieve more than a group that only exhibits one of these features. This would make it necessary to recruit a member from *each* house, perhaps even with the goal of defeating Voldemort, since his Reign of Terror had presumably begun while the Marauders were still in school. By killing James, winning Peter over to his side, and having Sirius put away, Voldemort has effectively crushed the Marauders. While it does seem unlikely that members of different Houses could form such a strong bond, it seems even more unlikely that the Sorting Hat saw Pettigrew as a typical Gryffindor, or Ravenclaw for that matter. As for putting him in Hufflepuff, since he was always "tagging along" after the Marauders, maybe he is loyal indeed, but his loyalty is to Voldemort *from the very beginning*, and he weaseled his way into the Marauders to create for himself an opportunity to do Voldemort's bidding. The Marauders knew he was a Hufflepuff and therefore loyal, and they naively assumed that his loyalty was to *them*. This same assumption led them to name him as Secret Keeper, and we all know the consequence of that. Just as ambition is not always evil, neither is loyalty always good. Later in her post, Barb said of Pettigrew: > Bravery, on the other hand...He may seem like a craven coward so far, but I > think we've already seen one instance of rather gruesome bravery that > contradicts the idea of cowardly Peter: his cutting off > his own hand to give Voldemort his body back. How many people would have the > nerve to do that? We might not agree with his motivations (helping the > evilest dark wizard there is) but it took a great deal of bravery nonetheless. > I also believe it took some bravery to learn to become an Animagus in > secret in order to accompany a werewolf. IMO, he does these things out of loyalty (to Voldemort), not bravery. Voldemort accuses him of wavering, which causes him a great deal of consternation precisely *because* his dominant trait is loyalty, and he is now very willing to do anything necessary to redeem himself in Voldemort's eyes. And although Voldemort disparages him for disloyalty, it is Peter, and no one else, who is still by Voldemort's side to bring him back to full strength. Voldemort calls attention to anything that could be construed as disloyalty on Peter's part to goad him: "If you were *truly* loyal to me, Peter, you would cut off your hand to strengthen me." His actions could also be motivated in part by cowardice - better to assist Voldemort than to invite his wrath. Susan said: > If I am not mistaken when Lupin had Harry in his > office he said something about the next quidditch > match. Although he was not supposed to take sides. > This to me indicated that Lupin is a former Gryffindor. I took this to indicate simply that he was rooting for Harry. Now James' son has a little group of his own, but this time they're all Gryffindors. It should be pointed out that although the Sorting Hat saw enough bravery in each of them to put them in Gryffindor, it wanted to put Harry in Slytherin, and we have ample evidence of Hermione's intelligence and Ron's loyalty. So now instead of one person from each House, we have three people whose primary trait is bravery, but each has a different - and very strong - secondary trait. This gives them the double advantage of strong ties from being in the same House, and each being brave enough to do what must be done. Whether this combination will ultimately be more or less effective than the previous generation remains to be seen. Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 11 22:36:52 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:36:52 -0000 Subject: House assumptions In-Reply-To: <20021011210701.77433.qmail@web21406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45250 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sherry Garfio wrote: > Perhaps the Marauders had a higher > purpose in mind, such as uniting the four Houses, or forming a group that would > benefit from the strengths of each House's iconic virtue. A group with talents > that include intelligence, bravery, loyalty, and ambition would undoubtedly > achieve more than a group that only exhibits one of these features. This would > make it necessary to recruit a member from *each* house, perhaps even with the > goal of defeating Voldemort, since his Reign of Terror had presumably begun > while the Marauders were still in school. It's a nice idea, but I don't think it would really work given the age of everyone involved. The Marauders must've become friends early in their school days -- Lupin says that they achieved the Animagus transformation in their fifth year, after three years of trying, so their friendship really couldn't have formed later than their second year -- and I really can't imagine a group of eleven or twelve-year-old boys forming a tight circle of friendship for reasons of political idealism. (Actually, I have trouble imagining a group of adults doing it, too, but with adults I'd say it's at least theoretically possible.) Childhood friendship is a more organic process that that. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Oct 11 22:45:01 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:45:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] House assumptions References: <20021011150925.59517.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006101c27177$d6e0d160$3fa0cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45251 > > Richelle wrote: > >>>My theory has James in Gryffindor, Lupin in Ravenclaw (though the two could be switched, but I doubt it), Sirius in Slytherin, and Peter in Hufflepuff. (You know, the loyal one, "logical" choice for a secret keeper, the one both Sirius and James would agree could be the safest).<<< Barb writes: > I'm baffled. I have no clue as to why folks regularly bring up the possibility that Lily or any of the Marauders might not have been in Gryffindor. Where are you getting this idea? From the books we see that cross-house friendships are extremely rare. (The only one we really see is Percy's relationship with Penelope, and that seemed to develop out of their both being prefects and presumably having contact--no pun intended--because of their duties or possibly compulsory meetings.) The likelihood of four students spread across all of the houses bonding in friendship to the point where they are working on becoming illegal Animagi together for the sake of one of the friends and then regularly sneaking out of four different houses to accompany Remus during the full moon just strikes me as patently absurd. Well, first of all Ing and Sherry have done fine jobs of defending my theory of the four Marauders equaling the four houses. Anyway, the point I'm making is it IS unusal for students to have close friends in other houses. Which is what makes it so remarkable for the Marauders to have done it. Both Flitwick and McGonagall remarked on the closeness of James and Sirius. If they were in the same house, what would be the big deal? Ron and Harry are always together. Malfoy, Crabbe & Goyle are together, etc. But then there's this group of four who have seemingly nothing in common (as far as their houses) but become friends. Also, I can't find canon for the Marauder's Map showing house common rooms/dormitories. But it does say that the map showed ALL of Hogwarts, and common rooms, etc. are part of Hogwarts. This would also be how Sirius knew where the Gryffindor common room was. The way I see it all four Marauders knew about all four common rooms. Partially from making the map, partially from having copies (I think each one had a copy, myself) to look at. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Susan Snow wrote: > If I am not mistaken when Lupin had Harry in his > office he said something about the next quidditch > match. Although he was not supposed to take sides. > This to me indicated that Lupin is a former Gryffindor. Not necessarily. Lupin just drank to a Gryffindor victory. As Ing said, he's taking these anti dementor lessons for Quidditch anyway. What's Lupin going to do, say he wants him to lose anyway? Nah, I think Lupin is another one with a soft spot for "Little Harry Potter, the boy who lived." He would want Harry to win over his own house. What a great guy. :) Richelle From Malady579 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 11 22:46:15 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:46:15 -0000 Subject: Voldie's new body (was: Voldemort and AK) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021011205235.0096f620@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45252 GulPlum pondered: >>>>What I find interesting in that is the phrase "my old body". Now, as far as we know, Voldemort has had four states: first as Tom Riddle, second the form he had after the "changes" Dumbledore mentioned he underwent upon leaving Hogwarts, third the pure spirit form after the AK rebound off him, and fourth the ugly baby form we met at the beginning of GoF. To which "old body" is he referring?<<<< Me: The only insight we might have to which body Voldie received upon regeneration is the description in the book. In CoS, Riddle is described: by Harry: "much taller than HP" and having "jet black hair" (Ch 13) by Dumbledore: "handsome" (Ch 18). Dumbledore also said, in Ch 18, that when Voldemort came back from his magical transformations, he was "barely recognizable". Now, in GoF Ch 33, the description of New and Improved Voldie is very particular. It is not said whether his hair was still jet black, but he is still tall. The description of his face and eyes are not, and this is a girl's opinion, are not handsome. Livid red eyes and slits for nostrils are just not attractive. And besides, if someone had livid red eyes and slits for a nose, wouldn't you be suspicious of them...or at least fear them? So, if we follow the breakdown of the "physical" bodies Voldemort can truly call his own... Riddle: I rule this out as the present End-of-GoF-Voldie based on the fact Voldie is not handsome. VapourMort and Evil Baby Voldemort: Present Voldie changed from these forms into the one he has now; therefore, I think we can rule these definitely out. Not that they were really in the running... Which leaves--- Transformer Voldemort: From Dumbledore, the unrecognizable Voldemort was no longer the handsome young boy at Hogwarts. To change from handsome Riddle seems to imply that Voldie is now rather unattractive...ugly. Snake face Voldie now fits this description. Besides, the deadeaters had no problem recognizing Voldemort, and I am sure they did not know Voldemort as Riddle but as the Transformer Voldemort. Melody Who as a side note when rereading the graveyard scene, wonders how small Pettigrew had enough strength to cut through his forearm with one swish of his dagger. Either that is a VERY sharp dagger or a VERY fast, strong swish. From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Fri Oct 11 22:56:58 2002 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:56:58 -0000 Subject: House assumptions In-Reply-To: <20021011210701.77433.qmail@web21406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45253 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sherry Garfio wrote: > Barb said: > > I'm baffled. I have no clue as to why folks regularly bring up the > > possibility that Lily or any of the Marauders might not have been in > > Gryffindor. Where are you getting this idea? > > Now for some more thoughtful reasons. Perhaps the Marauders had a higher > purpose in mind, such as uniting the four Houses, or forming a group that would > benefit from the strengths of each House's iconic virtue. A group with talents > that include intelligence, bravery, loyalty, and ambition would undoubtedly > achieve more than a group that only exhibits one of these features. This would > make it necessary to recruit a member from *each* house, perhaps even with the > goal of defeating Voldemort, since his Reign of Terror had presumably begun > while the Marauders were still in school. By killing James, winning Peter over > to his side, and having Sirius put away, Voldemort has effectively crushed the > Marauders. > > I think they were all in the same house, just look at the trio; all have different qualities that should have put them in other houses. Hermione could have been a stereotypical Ravenclaw, Harry ( Via the sorting hat) might have been a great slytherin, I think Ron is the guy who would have been in Gryffindor no matter what, and (I'm making a big if here for those who will bring up Neville eventually) if we all see Neville as being similar to Pettigrew ( a tag-a-long in the broadest of definitions), then maybe we can say he could have been a Hufflepuff. However, except for Ron, they're all in Gryffindor. I'm assuming that the Sorting hat's purpose is two-fold. First of all, it saw something in each of these kids that, while they could excell in other houses that are considered a cosier fit, took into account that these are only 11 year old children and looked for something that needed cultivating in order for them to grow as human beings. Secondly, To create diversity within the houses. Side note: Slytherin is bad, slytherin creates Dark wizards and houses their children of the corn ( or cornflakes if you will). I don't know enough about Slytherin to make any judgements, and maybe it might be best to leave Slytherin out, but I don't see any reason for the Sorting Hat to make any special decisions regarding those going into slytherin. Though the Hat is very biased towards Slytherin, being Gryffindor's hat and all, if we ARE to take the stories about Slytherin and Gryffindor at face value, wouldn't it be sweet revenge to just....... that's another post. I'm already rambling and I have 5 min left on my time. Plain and simple. Well, actually complicated and confusing. It's often noted that We don't see a lot of interaction with other houses outside of classes and, in rare moments, amongst the older students. Maybe there isn't a serious need for that, since every house already has a little bit of Ravenclaw, a little bit of Hufflepuff, and little bit of Slytherin, and a little bit of Gryffindor in everyone. Of course, if you want to make friends with someone in another house, just because they're in another house, then maybe you should re- examine who you are, why you might have been choosen for a certain house, and why your housemates were choosen. What am I trying to say? Each of the Maurauders probably had some main characteristics that would have made them just another slytherin, another hufflepuff, another.... But, the Sorting Hat decided to put them into one particular house and they all became Exceptional Gryffindors ( We can argue about Pettigrew till the day is done, but he has done great things, not good things, but great things....oooooo Olivander with a play on words....) SophineClaire- " Who's going home for Thanksgiving, Canadian Style* From gte510i at prism.gatech.edu Sat Oct 12 01:05:57 2002 From: gte510i at prism.gatech.edu (gte510i) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 01:05:57 -0000 Subject: one more murder Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45254 In GoF, Frank Bryce overhears Voldemort telling wormtail "...one more death and our path to Harry Potter is clear". Who is the unfortunate person to get killed before Harry? At first guess I would say Barty Crouch: they must break into his house and rescue his imprisoned son. But wait! They can't kill him. They need him to be alive so as not to arouse suspicion at the ministry before Voldy has his body back. waht about Moody? They can't murder him either. They need his hairs and his brain so Barty jr. can act convincingly like mad-eye. So who is it? Catherine Who's mind comes up with interesting questions after a few g&t's ;) From anakinbester at hotmail.com Sat Oct 12 00:43:59 2002 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 00:43:59 -0000 Subject: House assumptions In-Reply-To: <20021011210701.77433.qmail@web21406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45255 > Barb said: > > I'm baffled. I have no clue as to why folks regularly bring up the > > possibility that Lily or any of the Marauders might not have been in > > Gryffindor. Where are you getting this idea? I must say I agree with you. I understand why some people might like to believe that they were in different houses, but that just doesn't make sense to me. The houses are too separated. Heck, there was a whole other thread on how separated the houses are. Now were they just casual friends than perhaps I could see it, but their pranking and the their finding out the Remus was a werewolf and all... for all that to come about, it simply makes more sense to me that they all lived in the same dorm. Yes even Peter! Now, maybe, maybe, if James and Sirius knew each other before school, their friendship might have survived getting sorted into separate houses, but that goes against what I observed in school. There were friendships that deteriorated over time just from being sorted into separate homerooms at my school, or put on entirely separate schedule. That then begs the question, how would they have gotten to know Remus enough to note when he was sick? Someone had to be in the same house as Remus at least. Likewise, if Peter were the token Slytherin or Hufflepuff, well *grumble* I just see the urge to put Peter in another house as plain silliness. Peter is the example of the hard and the easy choice, and that not all Gryffindors are heroes and not all Slytherins are evil. People complain about that stereotype, and yet so many people don't think Peter should be in Gryffindor, which only perpetuates the stereotype of the houses. As for Hagrid's comment, he was simply stating that same stereotype. I read even at the time as an obvious exaggeration. Slytherin may have the most dark wizards out of their house, but surely they don' have them all. That just defies my understanding of the laws of probability! So, I figured Hagrid was making an unfair generalization. Like when the tour guide for my college said, "All art students live at Bruce" Not at all, but 90% do. *shrugs* Sherry Garfio wrote: > This would > make it necessary to recruit a member from *each* house, perhaps even with the > goal of defeating Voldemort, since his Reign of Terror had presumably begun > while the Marauders were still in school. Now that's pretty ambitious for a bunch of 11 year olds (and from Remus's tale, I believe they had to have been forming their friendship in their first year) *L* If they were thinking like that, maybe they should all be Slytherin (yes, ambition can be good, and that's actually a good example of good ambition) As nice as that sounds, that also seems to be based more on fanon characteristics as well. Sirius by no means seems that tolerant in the book, Remus I can't see going in on that because he'd be hard enough to make friends with. What you described sounds more like a recruitment drive, and I just can't see it forming the strength of bonds that the four friends seem to have (*prods Peter*) Sherry Garfio wrote more still: > By killing James, winning Peter over > to his side, and having Sirius put away, Voldemort has effectively crushed the > Marauders. Well, yes that I will not argue with. I think that's one of the saddest ideas in the whole book. Sherry Garfio > While it does seem unlikely that members of different Houses could form such a > strong bond, it seems even more unlikely that the Sorting Hat saw Pettigrew as > a typical Gryffindor, Why, can't Peter be a Gryffindor? For goodness sakes they get sorted when they were 11. I mean I probably covered this pretty thoroughly above, however, I really do not understand this attitude, and I think it's a pretty weak argument for having them all (or a few) in separate houses. Courage comes in all forms, and while I well not try and argue that Peter's been overly brave, I will point out (again) that he argued (kind of ) with Voldemort's plan twice, and he was scared, but he did it anyway, so he does have courage. And while I really think he's a fallen Gryffindor, why not Ravenclaw? Who on earth said he was stupid? We just know that Transfiguration probably wasn't his best subject, and he couldn't duel. Also, as for loyalty, I think Voldemort called it when he said Peter wouldn't be with him if it weren't for fear. That can be refuted by Peter sounding petulant in the first chapter, but he hasn't got much of an identity outside of being a loyal servant anymore, and Voldemort was denying him even that much gratification. I'd pout too ^^ -Ani From m.bockermann at t-online.de Sat Oct 12 04:58:33 2002 From: m.bockermann at t-online.de (m.bockermann at t-online.de) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 04:58:33 -0000 Subject: House assumptions and the Marauders friendship (long) References: <1034372662.3476.18098.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <005701c271ac$210fea80$75419fc1@computer> No: HPFGUIDX 45256 Hi there! Richelle wrote: >>>My theory has James in Gryffindor, Lupin in Ravenclaw (though the two could be switched, but I doubt it), Sirius in Slytherin, and Peter in Hufflepuff. (You know, the loyal one, "logical" choice for a secret keeper, the one both Sirius and James would agree could be the safest).<<< Richelle, the more I think about it, the more I like your idea. JKR *has* said that James was a Gryffindor but the others are all open. About support from canon, how about this idea: Snape disliked (as fas as we know) James from saving him and blames Sirius for endangering his life. Now, if both James and Sirius had been Gryffindors, when and why would Sirius talk to Snape? After all, most students socialize mainly with other students from their house and especially the Slytherins tend to be elitist. So why would Snape chat with somebody from another house (I guess we can safely assume that Snape was a Slytherin)? Why with a Gryffindor when the rivalry between Slytherin and Gryffindor seem to be a long standing tradition? It would simply not make sense for Snape to trust Sirius' advice - unless Sirius were a fellow Slytherin and Snape had absolutely no reason to mistrust a house brother. After all, between their cunning and ambition, friendship and loyalty are *very* important for a Slytherin - that much we know from the Sorting Hat. They stick together and support those that belong to their circle. If Sirius broke that code by first befriending James and the the others and then by tricking Snape, that would explains Snapes hatred toward him. Snape must have felt betrayed, causing him to plan to bring Sirius to a dementor without a prior trial. So if Sirius were a Slytherin, that would explain why people, especially his *friend* Lupin, would believe him to be the murder and traitor. Would people assume that so easily about a courageous Gryffindor, strenuous and straightforward Ravenclaw or loyal Hufflepuff (even loyal to the death as with Peter, as far as the people know)? Between the Slytherin's traditional elitist behaviour and the fact that many of them supported LV people would be quite suspicious of a Slytherin and condemn him without a fair trial. It would even explain why Lupin was so ready to believe in Sirius' guilt - something that always baffled me. According to McGonagall, James, Remus and Sirius were close friends. So why would Remus blame Sirius without giving Sirius the chance to defend himself or proof that he had been framed (could you picture that happening to Ron and Hermione for example?) ? Possibly the fact that Sirius was a Slytherin was always a sore point for the Marauders, something that could be ignored and forgotten as long as they were all kids but that became quite important when they grew older and when LV began his terror reign? Remus would have believed that his friend was a "good Slytherin" until he was proven wrong (as he believed). James was the stabilizing factor in their friendship and when he died, the bond between Remus and Sirius broke. Much has been said that the Marauders seem to be older "mirror" images of our present friends: Harry of course resembles his courageous father, Hermione learned Lupin, Ron the temperamental Sirius and Neville the equally untalented Peter. When you set James (Gryffindor), Remus (Ravenclaw), Sirius (Slytherin) and Peter (Hufflepuff) then you have a representative of every house. Our present friends are *not* in different houses, but some show distinct talents for another house: Harry (Slytherin because of his need to proof himself and his Parseltongue ability), Hermione (Ravenclaw because of her love for learning) and Neville (Hufflepuff because that is the house where the weaker student usually end up). So they *do* feature the ability of the four houses, too. Coincidence? Or did the Sorting Hat decide that he should put these four together to prevent an earlier mistake that ended in tragedy? Barb wrote: >From the books we see that cross-house friendships are extremely rare. But they are also not impossible. And you assume that the separation between the houses has always been like this. That might be. It is even very likely that the Slytherins traditionally distance themselves the most. But it might well be that the focus on one's own house was a side effect of the "bad years" when nobody could trust each other, from a time where you could only rely on your own house. The Marauders lived in an unquite time. Possibly, when they arrived at Hogwarts (before LV's rise), the relationships between the houses was more open and friendships between the houses unusual but not unthinkable. James and Lily died not to long after they left Hogwarts so one can assume that the Dark Lord was rising during their school time and that the houses driffted more and more apart the more powerful the Deatheaters become. That would put a strain on the Marauders' friendship, a strain that it survived for a long time. When it finally cracked (through Peter's treason) the result was desaster. Maybe the key to overcoming LV this time is to use the abilities of our four friends without committing the mistake of the first time? Another reason I like this theory is that it would explain how the Marauder's could create their map. Each of them added something from their own house, either knowledge or ability or both. Then they could create the map only because all the four houses were represented. If it is not so - then why is the map so rare and special? Such a practical device for making mischief would attrack more people besides the Marauder's or Harry and his friends. Even the fake Moody was impressed by it. It might be that the Marauder's friendship was extremely rare but that does not make it impossible. Greetings, Ethanol From joym999 at aol.com Sat Oct 12 03:23:19 2002 From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 03:23:19 -0000 Subject: September Contest Results Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45257 Mid-October is rapidly approaching, and where, you may ask, is the October HPfGU contest. And the results from the September contest? The answer is -- well, they're a little late, you see, the dog ate them and then I was busy and like that. And I still haven't quite finished adding up the scores for the September puzzle contest. But anyway, here are the results from the September creative contest, in which you were asked to come up with the strangest SHIP (romantic relationship) which is supported (in any weird, distorted way at all) by canon. There were only a few entries, but they are all beauties. I think you'll all agree that they give a whole new meaning to words like "far-fetched," "misinterpretation," and "weird." Thanks all, for your absolutely wonderful, nutty creativity! ****************************************** The first is from Cindy C.: ****************************************** Arthur Weasley, bless him, simply doesn't have enough to do in the series. He turns up now and then, true, but JKR hasn't done nearly enough with his character. Or has she? If you look closely enough, it is plain that JKR intends the reader to see that Arthur is smitten with another character ??- a character who is *not* his wife! And "smitten" is an understatement. Head over heels would be more accurate! Consider the evidence: In "Bagman and Crouch," Arthur is in the company of three of his sons, Ginny, Hermione and Harry. Ministry members greet Arthur cordially as they pass. Arthur keeps up a running commentary so dull that his own children aren't even interested, mostly just giving names and titles of various MoM colleagues. Even when he spots two Unspeakables from the Department of Mysteries, Arthur is nonplussed. But look what happens when Arthur first spots Ludo Bagman: "They were halfway through their plates of eggs and sausages when Mr. Weasley jumped to his feet, waving and grinning at the man who was striding toward them. 'Aha!' he said. 'The man of the moment! Ludo!'" Hmmm. Quite a warm welcome for old Ludo, eh? Very, very warm, I'd say. Oh, I can almost *see* those sausages practically flying through the air! And when Arthur introduces Percy to Ludo, Arthur is described as "grinning." Arthur just can't hide his excitement for Ludo at all, can he? But then, Ludo begins to display a bit of interest of his own. Bagman "eagerly" invites Arthur to place a bet, "*jingling* what seemed to be a large amount of gold in the pockets of his yellow-and- black robes." "Jingling," was he? That Ludo really knows how to reel 'em in, don't you think? "'Don't be a spoilsport, Arthur!' boomed Ludo Bagman, *rattling his pockets excitedly.*" Does Arthur react negatively to all of this jingling, rattling and booming? Does he storm off? Does he assert himself at all? Oh, no! He eats it up! "Mr. Weasley looked on *helplessly* as Ludo Bagman whipped out a notebook and quill . . . " Look at the language JKR chooses there -- "whipped out," "helplessly." Arthur has a weak spot all right, and Ludo Bagman knows exactly where it is. Still don't believe it? Check out "Weasleys' Wizard Wheezes." Percy says, "We're just not getting the support we need from the Department of Magical Games and Sports. Ludo Bagman ??" Percy barely has time to utter Ludo's name and *BAM!* Arthur is right there defending Ludo: "I *like* Ludo," Arthur says. Not only that, but Arthur blurts this right out in the middle of a *family dinner!* What a slip of the tongue! Then Arthur has to cover it up with some cockin' bull story about how Ludo gave him QWC tickets in exchange for smoothing over a problem with a supernatural lawn mower. Supernatural lawnmower, huh? A likely story. Tell us another one, Arthur ?? we'll believe *anything!* Yup, the only thing JKR didn't do is *draw us a picture!* Arthur Weasley and Ludo Bagman, an item if I ever saw one! ***************************************************** And from Dicentra we have this entry: ***************************************************** Serverus Snape had a secret. A deep, dark, frightening secret: he was in love. But not with just anyone, mind you. He was in love with the most famous Dark Arts wizard of them all. He was so much in love that he transfigured himself into a witch and went to the famous wizard's book signing, just for a chance to look into those forget-me-not blue eyes. And now he was coming to Hogwarts to teach! Severus could hardly contain himself. What would he do? How should he act? What should he *wear*? Surely the great Gilderoy Lockhart would be impressed by a well-dressed wizard. He decided to go with basic black--how could you go wrong with that? At first, Severus tried to play it cool, not really look at "Gildy," not really talk to him. Don't want to seem too eager, do we now? But then when Mrs. Norris was Petrified, they all went into Gildy's office, and finally Severus was *close* to him. He stood there, trying hard not to smile, but there was Gildy and all his paintings, and a feeling of warmth and glee came over him. And then Gildy set up the Duelling Club and asked HIM, *Severus* to help him with it. Oh, he was delighted to help! Now was his chance to show Gildy how he felt. So, half-smiling (it might have looked like a sneer to others), he faced his One True Love and blasted him off his feet. Surely Gildy would be able to feel the *passion* behind that spell. It was a Disarming spell, after all, and Severus was determined to break down Gildy's defenses. Then when the students began to duel, and things got out of hand, Severus demonstrated his "take charge" qualities and quieted them down. Severus knew he had accomplished his goal when they set Potter and Malfoy to duel with each other. Gildy was so flustered by Severus's display of power and passion that when he went to demonstrate proper wand technique to Potter he dropped his wand. Severus tried again not to smile, but one corner ofhis mouth went up in spite of himself. Then for the coup de grace, Severus told Malfoy to produce a snake so he could show Gildy that he, too, was a master of Dark Arts. But now Gildy wanted to show Severus *his* skill, and he beat him to it. Gildy made the snake fly into the air! A fitting tribute to the head of House Slytherin! Severus was weak-kneed with happiness. He'd noticed him! From then on, they were inseparable. To help alleviate the stress from the Petrifyings, Gildy and Snape concocted a wonderful Valentine's day celebration. They giggled as they put their heads together, planning the cupids and the love potions. Severus brewed up a love potion just for the two of them, and they drank it in a secret room of the castle. Then they stared into each others' eyes all night long by the light of a single flickering candle, sighing and swooning. And then, it all came to a tragic end. Ginny Weasley was taken by the Heir of Slytherin. Snape nearly fainted when he heard the news, but he knew that his love, Gildy, could handle it. He encouraged Gildy to find her, knowing that he could not fail, but then--then. That *Potter* got involved again, he and his rotten friend Weasley. Because of them, Gildy forgot everything that happened between him and Severus. Gildy was sent off to St. Mungo's to recover, and Severus didn't have the heart to visit him. Gildy wouldn't even know who he was. So Severus had to be content with *his* memories of his most wonderful year at Hogwarts and with the knowledge that some day, he *would* get Potter back, if it was the last thing he ever did. ************************************************** This charming entry was sent all the way from Germany by Sebastian: ************************************************** Well, there is as a very obvious ;-) couple: Moaning Myrtle and Mrs Norris. Remember Mrs Norris always sneaking around in the floors at night. We think she is helping Filch to catch the students, who were out of bed, but in fact she is dating Myrtle. Stop, you might say, Mrs Norris seems to be everywhere in the castle, while Myrtle always stays in her toilet. But we don't know this for sure. Remember when Harry says in the first book to Peeves: "The Bloody Baron has his own reasons to stay invisible", or something like this. And Peeves believes this. This means, ghosts can become invisible, whenever they want. So Myrtle can be flying in the floors without someone recognise it. And remember that Mrs Norris always comes and sniffs, when Harry is under the invisibility cloak. We thought, she can see Harry, but in fact, she just senses that there is someone invisible and she wants to find out, if it is her Myrtle. The problem is that the happy couple is very seldom undisturbed, because the jealous Filch is always following Mrs Norris. And when he finds her, she must pretend, that she is helping him to cath the students. Remember the night when Mrs Norris was petrified? She was saved by the water from Moaning Myrtle's bathroom. What, if it wasn't by accident? What if Myrtle has seen the Basilisk in the bathroom, and she knows, how to defend someone against the beast, which killed her fifty years ago? She knew her darling is in danger, because she knew that Mrs Norris wanted to visit her. So Myrtle set the floor under, hoping, that the cat just sees the reflection of the Basilisk's eyes. And it worked. Mrs Norris was just petrified. But of course it was a very hard time for Myrtle, when her girlfriend was petrified. And she started to whin and moan even more. Remember, how happy she was, when Hermione turned into a cat, after the Polyjuice mistake? This was, because there was someone, that reminded Myrtle at her beloved Mrs Norris. And then remember book 4. Harry went into the prefect's bathroom to solve the riddle of the egg, and who was in the bathroom: Moaning Myrtle! Yes, you said, she is spying on the prefects, but what if this was just her lie to cover her real reasons for beeing in the prefect's bathroom? It was very late in the night, so she couldn't expect that Harry or one of the prefects would visit the bathroom that time. But why was Myrtle in the bathroom? Of course, she wanted to meet her beloved Mrs Norris. Remember who Harry saw at his way back? Filch and Mrs Norris. Of course, Filch followed his cat, who was on the way to the bathroom, and when they heard the noise, Mrs Norris had no other possibilitie, as to accompany Filch and pretend that she also wanted to caught the troublemaker Peeves. ************************************************ Qaztroc sent in this one: ************************************************ I have gathered convincing evidence from canon that Ron will eventually end up with... Winky, the female house-elf. 1. Ron is obviously impressed the first time he saws her at the quidditch world cup. "So that`s a house-elf? Ron muttered. Weird things aren't they?" (GoF p.90 canadian hardcover). He really says *weird* and not *ugly* or anything else disrespectful. This is the first clue that Ron is curious about house elves, and that he is about to develop a relation with them (or at least one of them). 2. While the house elves seem repulsive to most wizards, Ron seems to be quite confortable with them. For example, while Harry still has mixed feelings for Dobby, it is clearly stated that Ron really likes him. "Tell you what Dobby, said Ron, who seemed to have taken a great liking to the elf, I'll give you the [jumper] my mum knits me this christmas [...]" (GoF p.333). Throughout their first meeting with the kitchen elves, Ron is relaxed and at ease. 3. Ron clearly doesn't view a possible relationship between a human and a house elf as something disgusting. Seeing how Winky is attached to Barty Crouch Sr. he just casually remarks: "She seems to love him" while eating a cream cake. (GoF p.334) Now this cream cake is no doubt one of the very subtle metaphors that JKR uses thoughout her books as clues. The cream cake represents Ron's desires. That he eats it while thinking about Winky's love for a human is very revealing! 4. The most obvious clue to Ron's interest in non-humans can be found in the infamous "The unexpected task" chapter. Says Ron: "We should get a move on, you know... ask someone. We don't want to end up with a pair of trolls." (GoF p.344). Not an innocent remark coming from Ron! We know that he often hide his true emotions from others (or even himself) trough derisive remarks (see his relationship with Hermione). In this case the mention of trolls is not merely a metaphor, it shows a hidden interest in a human/non-human relationship. It ia a clue that on a unconscious level, Ron would really like to go to the Yule ball with a house elf (which look like diminutive trolls). 5. Winky, on the other hand, appears very shaken after she lost her master (Crouch). She very much wants to devote her life to the well- being of a human. In this respect, Ron appears as a savior in GoF chapter 21 ("The house elf liberation front"). Ron goes into the kitchen trying to get the most out of the house elves (food, etc...). He is young, he is poor, he has never had much in his life because of his familial status. There are so many things he would like to do, to have. In short, he's the ultimate "taker", whereas the elves can be considered the ultimate "givers". "Slave needs master", Winky advertises. "Master needs slave", Ron advertises. Pheromones make their call and throw their webs. The two are meant to be together! 6. Both Ron and Winky have the same, conservative ideas about house elves. Hermione, on the other hand, is in constant dispute with Ron about this (throughout GoF). As soon as Ron and Winky get to talk to each other, they will no doubt realize how similar their views of the world are. The resulting harmony will be beneficial to both, and lead to more than just a "master and servant" ship. 7. Ron is very shocked when the house elves throw the trio out of the Hogwarts kitchens after Hermione's revolutionary diatribe (GoF chapter 28). "You couldn't keep your mouth shut, could you Hermione? Said Ron angrily. They won't want us visiting them now" (GoF p.468). And who is there to visit? Winky, of course, who lives there now. Though he may not admit it, the realreason Ron is devastated is because he won't get to see Winky again. But JKR knows better, of course. Surely their paths will cross again soon! Frankly, Isn't this the most obvious SHIP of all? From hpsmarty at aol.com Sat Oct 12 03:27:12 2002 From: hpsmarty at aol.com (hpsmarty) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 03:27:12 -0000 Subject: October Puzzle Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45258 And here is the new puzzle for the month (well, the rest of the month, anyway) of October. It is a logic puzzle. REMEMBER, don't post your answer (OR questions OR comments) to the list. Email it to hpsmarty at aol.com. That's hpsmarty AT aol DOT com. ***************************************************************** Five Gryffindor students ? four third-year students and one second- year ? are all doing their homework in Gryffindor Common Room when the Weasley twins rush in. Fred yells "There's a troll in Hogwarts Castle, and it's headed towards Gryffindor Tower!" "Quick, everyone get downstairs to the Great Hall," screams George. The five Gryffindor students rush through the painting of the Fat Lady, without noticing that Fred and George have not followed them. They run into to the Great Hall only to find a surprised-looking Professor McGonagall. After they explain what happened, she says, "I would expect Gryffindors to be less gullible and more experienced. Obviously, Fred and George Weasley wanted you all out of the way so they could perform some sort of mischief. I suggest you return to the Gryffindor Common Room immediately before you find that your socks have been charmed to play snare drums all night long." The five embarrassed Gryffindors hurry back up the stairs and through the secret corridors. When they get back to Gryffindor Tower, they find that the Common Room is full of colorful, flying, swooping butterflies ? and that the parchments containing their homework are missing. "Oh no," groans Ron, "Fred and George transfigured all of our homework into butterflies!" "How will I ever finish my Charms assignment?" moans Hermione. "It looks like a simple charm," says Harry, carefully watching the butterflies soar around the room. "They each seem to have different colors and markings, and they land for a few seconds every five minutes or so. We just have to catch them." "That's easy for you to say, Harry, you're a seeker ? you can grab small flying things. I won't be able to catch anything!" Neville says dejectedly. "You can do it, Neville," says Ginny encouragingly, "It's not hard." "You just have to watch them carefully and wait until they land," she adds, and then leaps up and grabs a striped butterfly resting by the fireplace. And each of the students, including even Neville, do manage to catch a butterfly. Eventually, Hermione finds a spell to transfigure the butterflies back into homework parchments, and it turns out that only one student has caught his own homework. Using the clues in the text above and listed below, along with what you know about Hogwarts and its students, can you figure out which student caught which color butterfly, where he or she caught it, and, when transfigured, who each homework belonged to and what subject it was? (Each student was working on a different subject.) 1. The most spectacular butterfly had colors which changed every time it flapped its wings, blinking from red to yellow to green as it swooped around the Common Room, until it was finally caught on the stairway and transfigured back into Ron's Astronomy homework. 2. It was the green spotted butterfly, not the butterfly caught under a table, that was the History of Magic homework. 3. Neville was helped in his efforts to catch a large purple butterfly by the members of the 1845 Gryffindor House Quidditch Team, who yelled advice when the butterfly landed on their photograph. 4. The large, solid yellow butterfly turned out to be neither Harry's homework nor the Divination homework. 5. The two boys who did not catch their own homework parchments caught each other's, as did the two girls. 6. One of the butterflies landed on a copy of *The Monster Book of Monsters,* which helped Ron catch it. 7. One student was working on Potions homework, and one butterfly was red. From hpsmarty at aol.com Sat Oct 12 03:29:35 2002 From: hpsmarty at aol.com (hpsmarty) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 03:29:35 -0000 Subject: October Creative Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45259 Here is the October Creative Contest. Once again, send all responses, comments, questions, criticism, howlers, etc. by email to hpsmarty at aol.com and DO NOT POST ANYTHING CONTEST RELATED ON THE LIST. We thank you. This month's creative contest puts you in charge of Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. The Board of Governors has decided that Hogwarts need a fifth house. What do you think the fifth house should be? Who should it be named after? What characteristics should its students have? How would the Sorting Hat describe it? Just for reference, the current houses (which as we all know are Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw and Slytherin) are described by the Sorting Hat: You might belong in Gryffindor, Where dwell the brave at heart, Their daring, nerve and chivalry Set Gryffindors apart; You might belong in Hufflepuff, Where they are just and loyal, Those patient Hufflepuffs are true And unafraid of toil; Or yet in wise old Ravenclaw, If you've a ready mind, Where those of wit and learning, Will always find their kind; Or perhaps in Slytherin You'll make your real friends, Those cunning folk use any means To achieve their ends. (from Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone) By Gryffindor, the bravest were Prized far beyond the rest; For Ravenclaw, the cleverest Would always be the best; For Hufflepuff, hard workers were Most worthy of admission; And power-hungry Slytherin Loved those of great ambition. (from Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 04:26:44 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 04:26:44 -0000 Subject: one more murder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45260 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "gte510i" wrote: > In GoF, Frank Bryce overhears Voldemort telling wormtail > "...one more death and our path to Harry Potter is clear". > Who is the unfortunate person to get killed before Harry? > At first guess I would say Barty Crouch: ...edited... > > What about Moody? They can't murder him either. ..edited.. > > So who is it? > > Catherine One small flaw in your quote; not all HP books say that. Some say 'curse' in place of death. The sequence of events seems to be- Get Crouch Sr under the Imperious CURSE so they can get Crouch Jr. Then Crouch Jr. gets Moody and puts him under the Imperious curse. Crouch Jr/Moody goes to Hogwarts. Get Harry Potter. So, I'm guessing Death/Curse refers to Crouch Sr., and although not as planned, he is the next person who is directly involved to be killed. bboy_mn From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Fri Oct 11 23:27:04 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 01:27:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What's Wrong With Metathinking? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021011232704.94475.qmail@web21503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45261 Hi everybody, I have read many posts in which some fellows of the group were debating about what you call ?metathinking?. Forgive me; I?m rather new on this group and though I?ve sent several posts yet, it is clear that I can?t compete with many of you in discussing about Magic Dishwasher (a brilliant theory) or future romances in the HP world. However, I noticed that the general tendency of this group is analysing the Harry Potter books from one?s own experience, and that it seems you don?t like very much ?metathinking? and literary analyse- I should better say academic analyse. I think you are completely right when you rely first on your own experience to analyse JKR books. It?s a normal reaction and it proves how human those stories are. Harry Potter true magic is that when you read one of the books, you inevitably find in it a character you can identify with, an event that reminds your self-experience. When we were children, we all have been one day or another Harry, Ron, even Draco. We all have met when we went to school or to the university teachers who were ?our? Snape, Lockhart or Binns.Yes, ladies and gentlemen, I personally can denounce one of my literature teachers as a bearded hybrid of Gilderoy Lockhart and Professor Binns. His main work was making his students write essays he published then with his own signature, and he was so boring that sometimes we couldn?t help skipping his classes. And that?s why the series appeal both children and adults. It?s made of human reality, our reality. Will we ever say enough how well JKR knows what it is like to be human? Her painting of human nature is exceptional, and true. That?s why this group?s members who analyse her books from their own experience are right. The Harry Potter series is our own Mirror of Erised. It has been a long time since a book hadn?t given us such a true reflection of who we are, of what we feel. Now I come to ?metathinking?. I believe it is necessary if we want to understand the complete magnitude of JKR books. When we try to understand some character?s behaviour, when we try to explain why he acts that way, we open the door to metaphysics even if we are not conscious of doing it. JKR herself never stops questioning, and making us questioning about human nature, about the society we live in, about the future we want to give our children. Let me take an example. Trying to guess why the Sorting Hat wanted to put Harry in Slytherin is a very exciting challenge, but no one can deny this scene from Book 1 has also a metaphysical meaning: it is a questioning about what determines a destiny. Is it predestination? Is it choice? As you can see, this questioning has an echo in many posts of the HPfGU group. When somebody tries to determine whether Harry makes free choices, whether he is influenced (for example in the Shrieking Shack, when he decides to believe Sirius) and takes their personal experience as a reference, this is ? metathinking?. The fact you don?t quote Freud or Nietzsche, and take rather an example of your own, when you explain a behaviour or an event, doesn?t mean you are not pointing however a metaphysical aspect of the story. The scene in the Shrieking Shack can be an illustration of the questioning about free will, independently from its emotional impact. And as you don?t need more than your own emotions to feel the same as Harry?s, you don?t need an academic cursus to point out there?s something particular that makes the scene more than a new development in the narration. Nevertheless, ?metathinking? often deals with academic analyse, and I don?t think it would be a good thing to ban it from the debate about Harry Potter. For example, quoting some philosophers or writers can be very useful to demonstrate the magnitude of JKR books. It is obvious that the Harry Potter books are fun, and are accessible to everyone. However, no one can avoid the evidence: at the same time she writes an exciting story, JKR develops considerations about politics, good and evil, education, society, etc; all topics that have been debated yet by philosophers and writers. By quoting those philosophers and writers in an analyse of her books, it is possible to make her detractors understand the real meaning of the Harry Potter Series, it is possible to show those who think this is just childishness and marketing, how exceptional JKR?s work is. As an example, if we don?t take into account there is in the story of Harry an application of the Freudian theories, we can?t explain why we enjoy them so, why they remind us our own experience, our own feelings. If we admit the tie between JKR?s books and those theories, if we quote them, we are able to demonstrate partially why Harry Potter is fascinating to both adults and children, and we prove that his appeal is not the mean result of marketing and fashion. We?ve got an extraordinary luck. We are witnessing the creation of a great work. Harry Potter is a universal work. It can please those who read it for fun, and those who want to see in it the last expression of the everlasting human questioning: where do we come from (what happened in Harry?s past?) who are we (who is that boy the WW seems to turn around?) and where are we going to (what is Harry?s future?). Both readings are interesting, and furthermore they are complementary. Just the way the chocolate frog and the card that gives the key to the mystery. Between fun and metaphysics, the posibilities are infinite but they all have a meeting point: humanity. Hope it wasn?t a too long post, and you all will go on searching and debating. This is a top group, for amazing books. Iris, who didn?t agree when some said at work JKR is not a major author. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 10:07:56 2002 From: kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com (kateydidnt2002) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 10:07:56 -0000 Subject: Fridwulfa/Hagrid's Parents Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45262 I just found this list and so I was looking through the archives to see what discussions are like here. Anyway I ran across the "Hagrid's Parents" thread and it gave me a thought (and it may be a bit nitpicky). How do we know that Fridwulfa is actually Hagrid's mum? Obviously, she had to be a giant, but are we going to take Rita Skeeter's word that it was this particular giant, who had a rather bad reputation? We all know how dedicated Rita is to telling the absolute truth to her readers. I think it is most likely that Rita heard Hagrid confess he was half- giant and then created her own reality from there because we don't hear directly from Hagrid that Fridwulfa is his mother. However, Hagrid does not specifically deny this and so we might assume from that that Rita's assumption is true. But at the same time Hagrid was probably too upset from the overall general effect of Rita's article that a smaller detail like a wrong name would not warrant correction. Just my two knuts! Kateydidnt who will stop now, before she tears her own argument apart and then rebuilds it upside down From buedefixe at netzero.com Sat Oct 12 08:35:07 2002 From: buedefixe at netzero.com (Ben Jones) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 01:35:07 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House assumptions References: Message-ID: <001701c271ca$46567980$404d3542@desktop> No: HPFGUIDX 45263 I rarely post, but houses are one of my pet interests. I tend to think that the Marauders were in different houses, but I seem to have a different idea about what puts a given person in a given house. Feel free to tear this to shreds and bring me to my senses. I don't think houses have much more to do with why people do things than what they do or even how they do it. As I see it, Gryffindors are motivated by basic emotions and want others to like them. The members of the Trio each react differently to the things happening around them, but in every case, they are motivated to act by how they feel right then, often making rash (or brave depending on your point of view) emotional decisions without considering much else. I could go into detailed examples, but this is all just to get to the Marauders anyway. The point is the real common ground I see among Gryffindors is what spurs them into action. Slytherin are motivated by ego (in the sense of the word without a value judgment) and want others to admire them. What motivates someone (Hufflepuff) to be loyal and diligent? I think they are motivated by reputation and want others to trust them. As far as Ravenclaw, it's not so much a matter of being smart as much as being motivated by pragmatism and wanting others to understand them. If you buy these (which you probably won't--again I could give more examples, but I don't want to belabor this too much), Remus and Peter are actually the easiest to peg. We don't know a great deal about what they did over the courses of their lives, but we know more about their basic motivations. Remus wants more than anything to be trusted, which is only natural since the first reaction most everyone has to him once they find out he's a werewolf is to mistrust him. In the shrieking shack he mentions a number of times how important it is to have (especially Dumbledore's) trust. I think he fits perfectly into Hufflepuff. Peter is even more transparent in his motives. Everything he does is based on his evalutation of what is most pragmatic. Sirius mentions that Peter never did anything unless he could see what was in it for him. Voldemort knows that Wormtail wouldn't have come to serve him if it weren't his only practical option. Peter himself tries to excuse his actions by asking what was there to be gained by opposing Voldemort. He couldn't conceive of acting to retain trust or because it felt right, and he's perfectly comfortable with anonymity, so admiration isn't key for him. It seems to me that despite his lack of talent, his motives place him in Ravenclaw. As for Sirius, although I take Hagrid's statement about every bad wizard coming from Slytherin as a very broad generalization, I can't see even him saying that if the person he thought to be the worst wizard other than Voldemort himself wasn't from Slytherin. I also think it fits with what we know about him. What better way to seek admiration than by excelling at academics and pranks. James is firmly in Gryffindor and I don't think its a stretch to say that he could participate with Sirius (and the others) in doing many things with very different motives. Living in different houses does put a damper on a friendship, but I don't think its insurmountable or even implausible. James did have the invisibility cloak, which would have facilitated rounding up the gang for late night excursions. The Gryffindor Trio and the Slytherin Trio are really the only canon characters whose close friend we really know for certain. There could be all sorts of other friendships that go on that simply never enter into the plot. Besides which, I think Harry and Ron's friendship was set on the train and I like to think they would have maintained it even if they had ended up in different houses. Well, despite my best efforts, this ended up rather long. If you made it this far, please feel free to let me know what you think about these ramblings. Ben ------------------------------------------- Introducing NetZero Long Distance Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month! Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com From rotsiepots at yahoo.com.au Sat Oct 12 12:27:19 2002 From: rotsiepots at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rotsie=20Pots?=) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 22:27:19 +1000 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: one more murder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021012122719.78783.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45264 --- Steve wrote: >One small flaw in your quote; not all HP books say >that. Some say 'curse' in place of death. I believe the American/Scholastic editions say "death" and the International/Bloomsbury editions say "curse." I'm more likely to go with the Bloomsbury version of events, purely because it's editorially closer to what JKR actually wrote. --Rotsie http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger for SMS - Always be connected to your Messenger Friends From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Oct 12 13:06:41 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 13:06:41 -0000 Subject: Pondering "Death Eaters" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45265 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "sherryblu" wrote: > Why, specifically, are the Death Eaters so called? Does this have > something to do with Voldemort's unspeakable ventures he has done in > his attempts to avoid death? Do his followers, or perhaps only his > inner circle, aspire to thwart death also? . . . by "eating" death? I associate DEs with primitive oral aggression (i.e., the first phase the Freudian stage of development is the "oral") cannibalism (e.g. the horrifying Goya painting of Saturn devouring his children),and blasphemy (cf. Paul in I Corinthians 15:54, "Death is swallowed up in victory,", etc.) And it makes a great rhyme for filking! - CMC From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 12 17:47:55 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:47:55 -0000 Subject: House assumptions In-Reply-To: <001701c271ca$46567980$404d3542@desktop> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45266 Um, this one is quite long, so I suggest getting a little comfortable. May I suggest a cup of tea for our English chaps and a nice coffee or Coke for our American audience. Ben Jones wrote: > I rarely post,...< Me: You should rethink that. I like your post very much. >...but houses are one of my pet interests. I tend to think that the Marauders were in different houses, but I seem to have a different idea about what puts a given person in a given house. Feel free to tear this to shreds and bring me to my senses.< Me: I have no intentions of tearing it to shreds so relax. :) > I don't think houses have much more to do with why people do things than what they do or even how they do it. > As I see it, Gryffindors are motivated by basic emotions and want others to like them. ***small cut of description of The Three*** > Slytherin are motivated by ego (in the sense of the word without a value judgment) and want others to admire them. > What motivates someone (Hufflepuff) to be loyal and diligent? I think they are motivated by reputation and want others to trust them. > As far as Ravenclaw, it's not so much a matter of being smart as much as being motivated by pragmatism and wanting others to understand them. Me: Let me break it down your theory into a easy to read table for those reading along at home. Gryffindor's motivation: raw impulse emotion, need to be liked Slytherin's motivation: ego, need to be admired Hufflepuff's motivation: reputation, need to be trusted Ravenclaw's motivation: pragmatism, need to be understood Your examples do show credit for not being bias to one house over another. Often times it is not the motivation but also the perception of the actions that defines us. That is the perspective that I want to add. Let's start with Gryffindor. Many times chivalry and valor come from basic unbridled emotions. The chivalrous tend to be coaxed on by sense of duty and honor, but the desire to act is deeply ingrained as selfless. From the twins helping Harry with his truck to the 4th year Gryffindor students helping Hagrid with the blast-ended skrewts, they always do what is necessary to help and protect others...without second thought. The ability to feed off emotions is often seen as a pure, unwavering reasoning based on ideals hence why it is respected and thought as foolish in one breath. The 4th year Gryffindors could of been greatly injured from the round-up of the b-e skrewts. I am sure the Slytherins inside Hagrid's hut thought so, but it was the Gryffindor's sense of obligation to the scene that kept them out there. The Gryffindors knew Hagrid needed help and they stayed to help. There was no second thoughts. There was no weighing of their options. It was broken down to two basic answers. Either (a) run and hid and leave Hagrid to his own devices, or (b) stay and help. Whether or not they were *liked* did not matter. It was more a sense of self pride within themselves. They were not going to let anyone down. They seem to have a deep desire to be thought of as dependable. This is true at the train, chamber, class, Quidditch, and graveyard. So, Gryffindor's motivation is based on ideals and a need to be dependable. The catalyst to their actions is raw emotions run unchecked. Now on to Slytherin. Ego can be a nasty thing. Many times it is greatly misunderstood as a verge to evil. Mostly because it is very self driven. Being too self-involved and not helping your fellow man is thought to be unkind and rude by our standards. Really, it is more self preservation which is really not all that bad. By protecting yourself and guarding your actions, a Slytherin is able to be there to help influence the world with their given talents and knowledge. While the brash Gryffindors are out placing their life in precarious situations, the Slytherin are inside expanding their minds and exploring their talents. It is this concept of "being your own island" that Slytherin nurture. They are self-dependent, self-reliant, and very independent. That way no one can let you down. Admiration and respect comes very slowly from the Slytherins, so the desire to be admires themselves is very easily what they want most. I think you hit the nail on the head with them there. So then, Slytherin's motivation is self-preservation (ego) and the need to be admired. Next is Hufflepuff, I hope I haven't lost y'all by now. :) We given so few examples of Hufflepuff's actions. Only major one is Cedric, so I will expand from him. Those who are patient and hard working often are quiet observers. They see the actions of many and see their motivations. From their vantage points, Hufflepuffs nurture and love dedication and equality. Cedric saw the truth in Harry's fall during the Quidditch game and felt ashamed that his father did not. Only on a fair playing field does Cedric want to compete for who is the best. This is so the true "best man" will win. >From this I agree that Hufflepuff's motivation is reputation. They have the need to be respected for who they are. They do not like masks. Their catalyst is equality. That leaves...Ravenclaw. This house, as has been pointed out, has very few examples to their character. So since I have babbled on for so long, I will make this short. I agree with Ben. :) So to recap and to make another cute table: Gryffindor's motivation: ideals and need to be dependable Catalyst - raw emotions run unchecked Slytherin's motivation: self-preservation and need to be admired Catalyst - not sure here? Hufflepuff's motivation: reputation and need to be respected Catalyst - equality Ravenclaw's motivation: pragmatism and need to be understood Catalyst - wisdom >From these motivations and the perception by the other houses, the reasoning behind the rivalries between houses becomes apparent. These below seem to be the major clashes between houses. Gryffindor is thought of brash and foolish to Slytherins, and Slytherins are seen as too self-involved by Gryffindors. Ravenclaw can see the logic behind the Slytherins but also see the foolishness of being too self-absorbed and alienating yourself. The Gryffindors, while noble, are often times see by Ravenclaw as not wise in their actions. Hufflepuff sees Slytherin as often being too bias to their views and Slytherin find the Hufflepuffs to be spineless. So to get back to the whole reason you broke down the houses in the first place, the Marauders. you placed: James-Gryffindor Sirius-Slytherin Remus-Hufflepuff Peter-Ravenclaw Before I placed all four in Slytherin, but I think I should change my mind. While James does "fit" as the typical Gryffindor, I have to wonder what his motive was for pulling Snape out of harms way. It could be for duty, but it seemed to me to be more for saving the group. James saw that Snape's death would be bad for all involved. That would place James in Ravenclaw. Besides, placing all the "good" characters in Gryffindor is getting kind of annoying. I also have problems putting Peter in Ravenclaw. He seems to be more into self-preservation. Wisdom, I hope, would tell him that joining the "evil" side would not be...well, wise in the long run. He does though, as you pointed out, try desperately to explain himself which is something Slytherins don't seem to have the desire to do. I always like Peter in Slytherin as a sort of "Colin Creevey" to Sirius. That annoying fly that would not go away, so Sirius just accepted him. Remus as Hufflepuff is very understandable in my mind. He desires to be seen as a equal and appreciated for his toils and wisdom. One might also place him in Ravenclaw as well. He seems very wise, well-read, and desires to be understood. And as for Sirius, he does fit nicely in Slytherin. On all accounts. As I said before, Snape and him do seems a lot alike in their actions and reactions, and Snape definitely places well in Slytherin. So I say, James and Remus: Ravenclaw Sirius and Peter: Slytherin I believe that James and Sirius are old friends from pre-wizard school and thier friendship was well cemented before Hogwarts. Then when they came to Hogwarts, they were sorted into different houses. they still pal around together but with Remus, James' new Ravenclaw friend, and with Peter, Sirius's groupie. So, thoughts, arguments, mud thrown in my general direction? Melody who is sorry she is so long winded today. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Oct 12 13:36:36 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 13:36:36 -0000 Subject: Fridwulfa/Hagrid's Parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45267 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "kateydidnt2002" wrote: > > How do we know that Fridwulfa is actually Hagrid's mum? > > Obviously, she had to be a giant, but are we going to take Rita > Skeeter's word that it was this particular giant, who had a rather > bad reputation? > I personally think, that Fridwulfa is really Hagrid's mum, because, like you said later in the post, Hagrid didn't denie it. However, I am not so sure if Fridwulfa earned the bad reputation she had. It is possible, that Rita invented Fridwulfa's "crimes". After all, she didn't try to eat Hagrid's father, or something like this, at least I don't think so. The only thing we know for sure about Hagrid's mother, apart from her giantness, is, that she abandoned her family, when Hagrid was three. We don't even know the reason. Maybe she just left her family, because she was frightened, that other wizard children would tease Hagrid, if they found out about Fridwulfa. So she went away for Hagrid's sake. This is at least possible. I hope we will see Fridwulfa in the next book and find out something about her and her deeds. Hickengruendler From oppen at mycns.net Sat Oct 12 18:55:42 2002 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 13:55:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fridwulfa/Hagrid's Parents References: Message-ID: <00ee01c27220$f7bbdfc0$68560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 45268 > > > > How do we know that Fridwulfa is actually Hagrid's mum? > > > > Obviously, she had to be a giant, but are we going to take Rita > > Skeeter's word that it was this particular giant, who had a rather > > bad reputation? > > > > I personally think, that Fridwulfa is really Hagrid's mum, because, > like you said later in the post, Hagrid didn't denie it. However, I > am not so sure if Fridwulfa earned the bad reputation she had. It is > possible, that Rita invented Fridwulfa's "crimes". After all, she > didn't try to eat Hagrid's father, or something like this, at least I > don't think so. The only thing we know for sure about Hagrid's > mother, apart from her giantness, is, that she abandoned her family, > when Hagrid was three. We don't even know the reason. Maybe she just > left her family, because she was frightened, that other wizard > children would tease Hagrid, if they found out about Fridwulfa. So > she went away for Hagrid's sake. This is at least possible. I hope we > will see Fridwulfa in the next book and find out something about her > and her deeds. > Hickengruendler So do I. I think it would be hysterically funny if Hagrid went off to the giants, found his mum, and... "So! There you are! After all these years you remember you have a mum! You ungrateful child...never wrote a single letter to let me know you were alive...they don't have owls in Britain, or what?" And on and on and ON, until she works off her spleen, grabs Hagrid, drags him into her cave, and tells him that she's got the rest of his life planned out..."and I know this very nice girl, she's half-giant just like you are, and _I want grandchildren!_ And enough already with hanging around with those losers at Hogwarts! Hang around with losers and you'll be a loser too!" Hagrid acquiring a mother and finding out that it isn't all beer and skittles...that would be funny. From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Oct 12 21:17:16 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:17:16 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort and AK (was:Re: Why is AK unforgiveable) Message-ID: <149.499586.2ad9eb5c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45269 Richard (quoting Rita): > >Is this part of MAGIC DISHWASHER or there is some sort of evidence that > he's > >mortal again? To have a body is not the same as being mortal, as I see it. > >He had a body when the AK rebounded and even though this was destroyed he > >didn't die. I completely share in Eloise's doubts. > Richard: > From the speech to the DEs, it would seem that Voldemort is mortal again: > > "But I was willing to embrace mortal life again, before chasing > immortality. I set my sights lower ... I would settle for my old body back > > again, and my old strength. I knew that to achieve this - it is an old > piece of Dark Magic, the potion that revived me tonight - I would need > three powerful ingredients. (etc)" > Perhaps I should expand on this a little. It seems to be commonly held that Voldmort in his old incarnation wasn't human enough to die. His body died, but he carried on living as a noxious vapour. In one sense he had immortality. But it was an irksome immortality in that he did not have a functioning body of his own. He now has a body again. Apparently the same body that he had after undergoing the transformations that made him unrecognisable compared with the young Tom Riddle. So I presume it should be in the same state regarding mortality/immortality. My impression is that Voldemort's *body* although transformed, hadn't reached a state of immortality before his encounter with infant Harry. He wasn't human enough for an AK to kill him completely, but it could kill his body (or at least, it could when rebounding from Harry - I am increasingly feeling that it was something about *Harry* that killed Voldemort's body, rather than the AK itself). But to be effective, to carry on his search for bodily immortality he needs a body, a body which can potentially be destroyed. I am not sure that he is not using the phrase, "to embrace mortal life" to mean just this, the possession of a vulnerable *body* as opposed to waiting until he could create an invulnerable one. You see, my big problem is that if Voldemort is now truly, completely mortal, as mortal as any other ordinary human, *why* is Harry's involvement so necessary? If it is just a case that Harry's blood is the crucial ingredient that has made him vulnerable and he *is* AKable, then all Dumbledore needs to do is assemble the 'old crowd' and the others who are loyal to him, organise an ambush (Snape via the Dark Mark will have access to his location, whether or not he is still in place as a spy and in contact with the DEs) and get rid of him (I don't think even Dumbledore would have qualms about AKing Voldemort, if it were possible). OK, I know it's not quite as simple as that in practice, but in principle, yes? It would be an annoying weakness in the plot if he *could* be disposed of, but just happened not to be. But we need another three books to get rid of him apparently. Unless he *is* disposed of in OoP and another monster rises to take his place, which I doubt: the Harry/Voldemort parallels/opposition seem too central to the series. There is something in the way in which Dumbledore speaks about Voldemort (I think and hope it's at the end of GoF, to which I don't have immediate access, or this doesn't make sense) which suggests that he will keep coming back, that he isn't immediately killable. It seems to me that his final death *has* to be something essentially to do with Harry and that consequently he is not, in everyday terms, truly mortal, as he can only be killed through the agency of one individual. Eloise Rambling a bit! :-) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Oct 12 21:38:09 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:38:09 EDT Subject: TBAY: Re: Radio TBAY and the inconsistent behaviour of Al... Message-ID: <4b.24efd22b.2ad9f041@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45270 PIPSQUEAK: And I think we have a caller from Kent on the line..... ELOISE: That's right. PIPSQUEAK: Any shooting stars down there? Has Dedalus Diggle been up to his old tricks? ELOISE: Well as a matter of fact, yes. There was a huge one reported here last week and apparently someone recently took a remarkable photograph of a UFO over Tonbridge....but that's not why I called.. PIPSQUEAK: Which was... ELOISE: Well, I really wanted to take up the point your last caller was making about Dumbledore's sanity. PIPSQUEAK: That would be Cindy... ELOISE: Yes. I mean it's pretty clear that Dumbledore *is* an eccentric, isn't it? The first time Harry encounters him, at the start of term banquet, he asks Percy if he's a bit mad, after he starts the feast with the few words, "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" Ans at the end of PS/SS, after he explains to Ron and Hermione exactly what had happened and expounded on his theory that Dumbledore had *allowed* him to face Voldemort, Ron's (proud) response is, "Yeah, Dumbledore's barking alright." PIPSQUEAK: Your point being? ELOISE: That Dumbledore's behaviour is quite *consistently* not exactly what one would expect from your average, sane headmaster. He is perceived by those around him as being, well, a bit mad. PIPSQUEAK: You mean his inconsistency of characterisation is actually *consistency*? ELOISE: Exactly! It's a paradox (A paradox! A most ingenious paradox!) Oops, sorry, got carried away there. I don't think he *is* mad, but he's a bit *different* isn't he? I mean... Dumbledore just isn't really on the same plane as most of the other characters in the books. For starters, he's very old, so he has a different perspective on things and he has the friendship of someone even older in Nicholas Flamel, whose perspective on what is and isn't important in the greater scheme of things must be very different from your average mortal's. He also has a sense of humour, which is at times a little off-beat. PIPSQUEAK: Yes, he does. He laughs at things which frankly aren't funny, like the distress of one of his senior staff members. ELOISE: But as one of your previous callers pointed out, it *is* funny on one level. Unfortunately, humour tends to have victims. Unless we're laughing at ourselves, most of the situations we find funny are funny at someone else's expense. PIPSQUEAK: So it's OK to laugh at somebody else's expense? Snape's for instance? ELOISE: Well, *I* laugh at his expense and *my* feelings about that particular character are fairly well known to those who've listened to these phone-ins before. I don't think laughter is always cruel. I mean, sure, it's better to laugh *with* someone than *at* someone, but I often laugh at my children and it's not out of heartlessness, but because what they do is sometimes simply funny to adult eyes which interpret situations differently. Now sometimes it annoys them intensely and I have to explain that I'm not *making fun* of them, but simply that the situation they've found themselves in, or created, is amusing when viewed from outside. I think one of the reasons for Dumbledore's amusement is simply that, as I (and others) have said before, his relationship with Snape is rather like that of a father with a somewhat difficult child. We can be amused by the antics of those whom we love. I'd like to think that afterwards he took him to one side and said something like, "I'm sorry, Severus, I didn't want to hurt your feelings, but you must see that from where I was standing that situation really was quite amusing... If only you could have *seen* yourself!" And, of course, he wasn't just amused at Snape's behaviour. He was also enjoying himself because his lttle scheme had worked and he had saved Sirius from a fate worse than death. Wasn't he allowed a little elation? It was another of his more brilliant ideas. If we combine his eccentricity with the fact that he *is* seeing the bigger picture, his having a sense of proportion about things which others don't necessarily share and a fairly wicked sense of humour, I think we have a pretty consistent character. PIPSQUEAK: So you don't see any inconsistencies at all? ELOISE: Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. I do think the awarding of the points at the end of PS/SS *is* an inconsistency of characterisation. But then I think that is driven by literary considerations. PIPSQUEAK: That would be metathinking... ELOISE: It certainly would. Is that a problem? Eloise From the.gremlin at verizon.net Sat Oct 12 21:16:52 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:16:52 -0000 Subject: What's Wrong With Metathinking? In-Reply-To: <20021011232704.94475.qmail@web21503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45271 Iris wrote: "Hi everybody, I have read many posts in which some fellows of the group were debating about what you call "metathinking". Forgive me; I'm rather new on this group and though I've sent several posts yet, it is clear that I can't compete with many of you in discussing about Magic Dishwasher (a brilliant theory) or future romances in the HP world." Until I read your post, I still wasn't clear on what metathinking was. Now I know. I am completely lost on MAGIC DISHWASHER. I'll try to find time later to look it up. Oh, wait. I just re-read part of your post and found out for real what metathinking is. Okie, NOW I know what metathinking is. "However, I noticed that the general tendency of this group is analysing the Harry Potter books from one's own experience, and that it seems you don't like very much "metathinking" and literary analyse- I should better say academic analyse." I love literary analysis! I spent the past two years trying to figure out why dead white guys wrote their poems. However, I also have a tendancy to think, "maybe he/she just put that in their because they liked it. Did anyone ever consider that?" It's like the number 20 in the HP series. Maybe J.K. Rowling just likes that number. Or maybe she just keep putting it in there as she's rummaging for a general number. I sometimes wonder if we over- analyse. "I think you are completely right when you rely first on your own experience to analyse JKR books. It's a normal reaction and it proves how human those stories are. Harry Potter true magic is that when you read one of the books, you inevitably find in it a character you can identify with, an event that reminds your self- experience. When we were children, we all have been one day or another Harry, Ron, even Draco. We all have met when we went to school or to the university teachers who were "our" Snape, Lockhart or Binns.Yes, ladies and gentlemen, I personally can denounce one of my literature teachers as a bearded hybrid of Gilderoy Lockhart and Professor Binns. His main work was making his students write essays he published then with his own signature, and he was so boring that sometimes we couldn't help skipping his classes." I usually look at books that I'm analysing in an objective light. I also don't participate in discussions much, unless they interest me (meaning, unless they're about Snape). However, I like the idea of using personal experience to look at the books. I mean, these books ARE about a kid coming of age. We are following Harry and Co. from the age 11 to 17/18. For me, I just turned 18, so I could probably look at Harry's experiances and relate, as I can still remember being 11 (barely, though; I have the memory of a goldfish). I actually never thought of relating the book to my own experiances, because I've always been taught to quote the reading, look at the era it was written in. "And that's why the series appeal both children and adults. It's made of human reality, our reality. Will we ever say enough how well JKR knows what it is like to be human? Her painting of human nature is exceptional, and true. That's why this group's members who analyse her books from their own experience are right. The Harry Potter series is our own Mirror of Erised. It has been a long time since a book hadn't given us such a true reflection of who we are, of what we feel." I agree with you in your comment about the Mirror of Erised. All of us wish that we were young witches and wizards attending Hogwarts. SO, not only would we be analysing the books from our own experiances, would we be analysing the books from the way we would react in the same situation, if we were Harry and Co.? I know that in GoF, chapter 27, I would feel the same way towards Snape as Harry does, and I LIKE Snape. "Now I come to "metathinking"." Which I now know the definition of. "I believe it is necessary if we want to understand the complete magnitude of JKR books. When we try to understand some character's behaviour, when we try to explain why he acts that way, we open the door to metaphysics even if we are not conscious of doing it. JKR herself never stops questioning, and making us questioning about human nature, about the society we live in, about the future we want to give our children." I think that if you picked up a book at random, and had no idea about it's history, you would still be able to place it in a time period, because of the society, the way people live, the way they act, or talk. JKR's books are bound to have themes that are...well, I want to use the work prevalent, but I just looked it up, and it doesn't quite fit. Well, themes that are discussed most today, especially in England, because, obviously, that's where she is. There's the issue of terrorism, there's prejudice, politics, education. All these things are big issues in the States right now, particularly terroism. I don't know about England and terrorism, but I remember some posts dicussing terrorist acts that JKR should remember. Basically, JKR is including about issues that have been raised in reality. "Let me take an example. Trying to guess why the Sorting Hat wanted to put Harry in Slytherin is a very exciting challenge, but no one can deny this scene from Book 1 has also a metaphysical meaning: it is a questioning about what determines a destiny. Is it predestination? Is it choice? As you can see, this questioning has an echo in many posts of the HPfGU group. When somebody tries to determine whether Harry makes free choices, whether he is influenced (for example in the Shrieking Shack, when he decides to believe Sirius) and takes their personal experience as a reference, this is " metathinking". The fact you don't quote Freud or Nietzsche, and take rather an example of your own, when you explain a behaviour or an event, doesn't mean you are not pointing however a metaphysical aspectof the story. The scene in the Shrieking Shack can be an illustration of the questioning about free will, independently from its emotional impact. And as you don't need more than your own emotions to feel the same as Harry's, you don't need an academic cursus to point out there's something particular that makes the scene more than a new development in the narration." I don't see wondering about pre-destination and free will as met- thinking. I think that's more like literary analysis. What you just described above IS literary analysis. The emotional aspect of the Shrieking Shack scene doesn't really have anything to do with what the scene means. If you were to read that scene on one level you'd see exactly what was written. If you were to go a level below, as we do here, or several levels below, as other people do here, you would be analysing the actions of the people involved in that scene. I honestly don't see how one could use their own experiances for that scene, unless you regularly find yourself in an old shack with a werewolf, a convicted murderer, three children, and a momentarily insane wizard. "Nevertheless, "metathinking" often deals with academic analyse, and I don't think it would be a good thing to ban it from the debate about Harry Potter. For example, quoting some philosophers or writers can be very useful to demonstrate the magnitude of JKR books. It is obvious that the Harry Potter books are fun, and are accessible to everyone. However, no one can avoid the evidence: at the same time she writes an exciting story, JKR develops considerations about politics, good and evil, education, society, etc; all topics that have been debated yet by philosophers and writers. By quoting those philosophers and writers in an analyse of her books, it is possible to make her detractors understand the real meaning of the Harry Potter Series, it is possible to show those who think this is just childishness and marketing, how exceptional JKR's work is." I think that there are some places where no one has any personal experiance in, and you have to use literary analysis. Others, for instance, scenes involving Harry at school, family troubles with the Weasleys and the Dursley's, people can use personal experiance for. As I mentioned before, the stories do deal with topics being debated in reality, and we can also take that and relate it to reality, and our own experiances with the topic. Because the series is being written as we speak, we have that luxury of comparing it to a society that we live in, instead of having to look it up in a history book somewhere. Some people's analysises will obivously be different because they are living the exeperiance in a different way. However, it is JKR who is writing the book, and not us, and we have to take into consideration her own experiances, and how they influenced plotlines in the books. "As an example, if we don't take into account there is in the story of Harry an application of the Freudian theories, we can't explain why we enjoy them so, why they remind us our own experience, our own feelings. If we admit the tie between JKR's books and those theories, if we quote them, we are able to demonstrate partially why Harry Potter is fascinating to both adults and children, and we prove that his appeal is not the mean result of marketing and fashion." I don't know much about Freud. No, wait, I don't know ANYTHING about Freud. However, I have always explained the broad audience of HP as the fact that everyone wants to believe in magic. As kids, we believed in it, and as an adult, it sort of brings back the memory of being a kid and believing magic existed. Who wouldn't want to live in a world where you can just point you wand and a chair will appear? That's pretty much what drew me to the series in the first place. "We've got an extraordinary luck. We are witnessing the creation of a great work. Harry Potter is a universal work. It can please those who read it for fun, and those who want to see in it the last expression of the everlasting human questioning: where do we come from (what happened in Harry's past?) who are we (who is that boy the WW seems to turn around?) and where are we going to (what is Harry's future?). Both readings are interesting, and furthermore they are complementary. Just the way the chocolate frog and the card that gives the key to the mystery. Between fun and metaphysics, the posibilities are infinite but they all have a meeting point: humanity. " Exactly. Harry Potter can be read on different levels. We here obviously, read it at the deeper levels, looking at actions and meanings. Children will just read the first level, and have fun with the book. Analysing the book to death can be fun, too, though. "Hope it wasn't a too long post, and you all will go on searching and debating. This is a top group, for amazing books. Iris, who didn't agree when some said at work JKR is not a major author." I guess she is a major author, but it's hard to get past the stereotype of children's books. However, how many author's can get that broad of an audience out of their books? Children reading it and enjoying it, like dime novels, adults reading it and looking at the deeper meanings, like literature. And this is the longest post I've ever done. And I got up to do my laundry and forgot what I was going to say. -Acire, who is worried that she'd rather spend half the morning organizing her thoughts for this post then writing an easily BS'd essay for class. From kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 21:31:12 2002 From: kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com (kateydidnt2002) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:31:12 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Student Population/Admittance to Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45272 I was reading up in the FAQ on the numerous theories surrounding the Student Population of Hogwarts and I did not see one point brought up. It is possible that some British wizards send their children to foreign schools. Draco alludes to this possibility in GoF (Scholasitc, Hardcover pg 165) when the trio hear him say his father wanted to send him to Durmstrang. A second point: I believe that you are admitted to Hogwarts in the calender year in which you turn 11, meaning all students born in the year 1980 would start at Hogwarts in 1991. Therefore, Ron was born on March 1, 1980; Harry July 31, 1980; Hermione September 19, 1980. This is supported by the fact that GoF clearly indicates that Fred and George turned 17 in April of their sixth year (Scholastic, hardcover pg 189)meaning that they were born in April of 1978 and entered Hogwarts in 1989 because that is the calendar year in which they turned eleven. Just a few thoughts! Kateydidnt From kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 22:16:31 2002 From: kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com (kateydidnt2002) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 22:16:31 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Arrest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45273 The on going mystery as to what happened between the late night of Oct. 31 1981 and when Hagrid delivered Harry the night of Nov. 1, 1981 to the Dursley's where Dumbledore waited has another mystery added to it, which stems from Madam Rosemerta's statement in PoA (Scholasitc Hardcover pg 207 [ch 10]) that Sirius Black was caught "the next day." Given the conversation just prior to this "next day" statement it is obvious she is referring to November 1. This however, cannot be true. I think that the confrontation between Peter and Sirius happened on Nov. 2 or later. If we take Madam rosemerta's statement that Black was caught on Nov. 1 as true then consider how things should have been different: First, Professor McGonagall certainly would have mentioned this the night of Nov. 1 in her questioning of Albus as to what the truth was surrounding what had happened. It wouldn't be something she didn't know about because it was a major catastrophe as described by Minister Fudge in PoA pg 208 [ch 10], the news of which would have spread just as fast as the news about Voldemort's disappearance. Second: Even if Minerva didn't ask Dumbledore about Sirius right away either Dumbledore or she would have reacted to Hagrid saying he borrowed the motorcycle from Sirius Black and needed to return it (SS Scholastic paperback pg 16). If Sirius had been arrested earlier that very day for murdering 12 muggles and one wizard one of the two would have said something to Hagrid about this when he mentioned needing to return the motorcycle. Third: It is plausible that Hagrid wouldn't know about Sirius' actions (if in fact they did happen on Nov. 1) as he was, as far as I can tell, toting baby Harry around all day. If, by some stretch of imagination, McGonagall had not heard about what had happened (I don't know, maybe she had a lot of papers to grade-it was during the school year)she would not mention it. But there is no possible way that anyone can convince me that Dumbledore would not know of such an occurence, and therefore he *would* have mentioned it in regards to Hagrid's mentioning Sirius. Fourth: SS claims that there were wizards celebrating *all* day Nov. 1. I would think that a catastrophe such as what happened when Sirius supposedly blew up the street would dampen the spirits of those party- goers. A sudden renewal of horrible Death Eater actions, coming so soon after the *rumors* of Voldemort's downfall, would lead me to assume that the rumors were untrue and therefore dampen my spirits quite a bit. The Harry Potter Lexicon timeline puts the Sirius/Peter confrontation on Nov. 1, I however, disagree according to my reasons listed above. It is my conclusion that Madam Rosemerta's statement was incorrect and that the Sirius/Peter confrontation took place on Nov. 2 or shortly thereafter. What do you think? Kateydidnt From squireandknight at yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 22:40:53 2002 From: squireandknight at yahoo.com (Becky) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 22:40:53 -0000 Subject: House assumptions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45274 Kris said: > Actually I think it much more likely that the marauders are the ones whose > houses will be a surprise. I'm still convinced that all four were from a > different house, which is why their friendship was so unique. I mean, Ron and > Harry are always together and nobody seems the least bit impressed by that. I'm curious by what you mean here. I haven't read anything in canon that would seem to imply that MWPP's friendship was "unique." We only have a description that "You'd have thought Black and Potter were brothers!" - PoA, The Marauder's Map That Pettigrew was "... that fat little boy who was always tagging around after them at Hogwarts," who "Hero-worshipped Black and Potter." No mention of Lupin was made except by Lupin himself. Incidently, this is one of the problems I have with the "Four Houses" theory. Surely, *some* kind of notice would have been made. Kara said: > What an interesting theory, and one that I hope plays out. As I was > reading your post, that's exactly where I thought each one would go. > It would be very interesting to find out that Sirius was in > Slytherin... it would give a new perspective on that house. Afterall, > not every Slytherin is an evil bastard... that would be way too > stereotypical, and why would you let them even attend Hogwarts? I > could see Peter as a Hufflepuff, -much- more than I could imagine him > as a Gryffindor. Another problem I have. I *can't* see Peter as a Hufflepuff. Loyal, diligent? I don't see Peter. And I can't see him as being a loyal follower of LV who wormed his way in either. It mentions in canon that he'd been passing information to for a year before James and Lily were killed (PoA, The Servant of Lord Voldemort), which is a long time for a spy, but not long enough that I would think he really *was* being a "loyal Hufflepuff." Not to mention he isn't loyal to LV either. Remember, *moral* bravery is not the same thing as *bravery.* I know *I* wouldn't be able to cut off a finger or a hand. Themetically, it would be interesting. But, JKR would have to do a *lot* of explaining for all the pre-Gryffindor evidence, including Lupin: "Let's drink to a Gryffindor victory against Ravenclaw!" (PoA - The Patronus) I find it unlikely that Lupin would turn out to *be* a Ravenclaw after this. You can argue that he was just being nice to Harry, but there are plent of ways to wish luck on the game without an obvious reference to Gryffindor winning. Sirius: "You'd have thought Black and Potter were brothers!" (- PoA, The Marauder's Map). We haven't seen any really close inter-House relationships. If Sirius turned out to be a Slytherin, I think some explaining would be needed about why it hasn't been mentioned yet (with a whole lot of people trying to think of an explanation for Sirius' betrayal). An "I forgot to tell you" wouldn't cut it. Peter: Already addressed Hufflepuff, his actions speak for themselves. And while he hasn't shown loyalty, he *has* shown bravery. People often show their bravery when they have to defend their most important possession. The fact that Pettigrew has chosen his life can't be proof that he's not *brave.* James: We know JKR answered in an interview a question about what position James played on the *Gryffindor* Quidditch team. While only saying James was Chaser, there *is* an implication that James is a Gryffindor. However, I can't see them being in different Houses. Which means either Gryffindor, Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff, or Slytherin. Gryffindor - most obvious choice. Lily was in it, JKR has said by omission that James was in it. Comes out best match for them in comparison to the other Houses. Ravenclaw: Again the whole Lupin scenario, not to mention you have to wonder what Peter's doing there. Hufflepuff: While an extremely amusing notion (to me) at first. I still can't see Peter, and Sirius seems too ... wild for it. Slytherin: Come *on.* I can't imagine any way that they could have kept Werewolf!Remus a secret from Snape until 5th/6th year while sharing a *dormitory* with him. I don't see Snape as stupid, and we *know* he was a Slytherin. (Unless Sirius is lying, or being really clumsy in his speech by classifying Snape as "*part* of a gang of Slytherins" (emphasis mine, GoF, Padfoot Returns).) It makes far more sense to me that Snape was a more distant observer. Richelle said: > Well, first of all Ing and Sherry have done fine jobs of defending my theory > of the four Marauders equaling the four houses. Anyway, the point I'm > making is it IS unusal for students to have close friends in other > houses. > Which is what makes it so remarkable for the Marauders to have done it. > Both Flitwick and McGonagall remarked on the closeness of James and > Sirius. > If they were in the same house, what would be the big deal? Ron and Harry > are always together. Malfoy, Crabbe & Goyle are together, etc. But then > there's this group of four who have seemingly nothing in common (as far as > their houses) but become friends. But that's why I'm arguing against it. No big deal *is* made out of MWPP. The only reason they emphasized the closeness seems to be because of the supposed betrayal. > Also, I can't find canon for the Marauder's Map showing house common > rooms/dormitories. But it does say that the map showed ALL of Hogwarts, and > common rooms, etc. are part of Hogwarts. This would also be how Sirius knew > where the Gryffindor common room was. The way I see it all four Marauders > knew about all four common rooms. Partially from making the map, partially > from having copies (I think each one had a copy, myself) to look at. Possibly, but I still think there's too much evidence one way, and too little the other for me to swallow. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Susan Snow wrote: > If I am not mistaken when Lupin had Harry in his > office he said something about the next quidditch > match. Although he was not supposed to take sides. > This to me indicated that Lupin is a former Gryffindor. > Not necessarily. Lupin just drank to a Gryffindor victory. As Ing said, > he's taking these anti dementor lessons for Quidditch anyway. What's Lupin > going to do, say he wants him to lose anyway? Nah, I think Lupin is another > one with a soft spot for "Little Harry Potter, the boy who lived." He would > want Harry to win over his own house. What a great guy. :) > Richelle See farther up. He could have *easily* wished him luck without deliberately going for a Gryffindor over Ravenclaw victory. I can see the desire to have a "good guy" in Slytherin (and not an "apparently good guy" like Snape), but the we miss out on Gryffindor!Peter going evil. Ethanol said: > Richelle, the more I think about it, the more I like your idea. JKR *has* > said that James was a Gryffindor but the others are all open. > About support from canon, how about this idea: Snape disliked (as fas as we > know) James from saving him and blames Sirius for endangering his life. Now, > if both James and Sirius had been Gryffindors, when and why would Sirius > talk to Snape? After all, most students socialize mainly with other students > from their house and especially the Slytherins tend to be elitist. So why > would Snape chat with somebody from another house (I guess we can safely > assume that Snape was a Slytherin)? Why with a Gryffindor when the rivalry > between Slytherin and Gryffindor seem to be a long standing tradition? It > would simply not make sense for Snape to trust Sirius' advice - unless > Sirius were a fellow Slytherin and Snape had absolutely no reason to > mistrust a house brother. That's partly my defence of the infamous Prank, that Sirius wasn't expecting Snape to actually *go.* But that's for another time. As for the socializing - think Harry and Draco. Except Sirius strikes me as someone who'd take the more active role (the "Bully You Know" was how I think it was referred to, although they were talking about the twins). It doesn't require me to take much of a leap that Sirius might talk to Snape. > After all, between their cunning and ambition, friendship and loyalty are > *very* important for a Slytherin - that much we know from the Sorting Hat. > They stick together and support those that belong to their circle. If Sirius > broke that code by first befriending James and the the others and then by > tricking Snape, that would explains Snapes hatred toward him. Snape must > have felt betrayed, causing him to plan to bring Sirius to a dementor > without a prior trial. Excuse me? Where? Are you talking about the "where you'll make your real friends" line in PS/SS. I always assumed that it just meant "you'd meet people with the same goals as you." Whatever it means, I don't see much loyalty among the Slytherins of today. They aren't Hufflepuffs, and I don't see them admiring excessive loyalty. I don't see any reason to assume they were especially loyal then either. > So if Sirius were a Slytherin, that would explain why people, especially his > *friend* Lupin, would believe him to be the murder and traitor. Would people > assume that so easily about a courageous Gryffindor, strenuous and > straightforward Ravenclaw or loyal Hufflepuff (even loyal to the death as > with Peter, as far as the people know)? Between the Slytherin's traditional > elitist behaviour and the fact that many of them supported LV people would > be quite suspicious of a Slytherin and condemn him without a fair trial. It > would even explain why Lupin was so ready to believe in Sirius' guilt - > something that always baffled me. According to McGonagall, James, Remus and > Sirius were close friends. So why would Remus blame Sirius without giving > Sirius the chance to defend himself or proof that he had been framed (could > you picture that happening to Ron and Hermione for example?) ? Possibly the > fact that Sirius was a Slytherin was always a sore point for the Marauders, > something that could be ignored and forgotten as long as they were all kids > but that became quite important when they grew older and when LV began his > terror reign? Remus would have believed that his friend was a "good > Slytherin" until he was proven wrong (as he believed). James was the > stabilizing factor in their friendship and when he died, the bond between > Remus and Sirius broke. Because the evidence was so overwhelming? Because their friendship has always been strained since the Prank? (Again, part of a theory about why Sirius suspected Remus.) I still find the absolute exclusion of saying Sirius was a Slytherin *very* suspicious if he was one. Particularly, when the party speaking *aren't* Sirius' ex- friends (see PoA, The Marauder's Map). > Much has been said that the Marauders seem to be older "mirror" images of > our present friends: Harry of course resembles his courageous father, > Hermione learned Lupin, Ron the temperamental Sirius and Neville the equally > untalented Peter. When you set James (Gryffindor), Remus (Ravenclaw), Sirius > (Slytherin) and Peter (Hufflepuff) then you have a representative of every > house. Our present friends are *not* in different houses, but some show > distinct talents for another house: Harry (Slytherin because of his need to > proof himself and his Parseltongue ability), Hermione (Ravenclaw because of > her love for learning) and Neville (Hufflepuff because that is the house > where the weaker student usually end up). So they *do* feature the ability > of the four houses, too. Coincidence? Or did the Sorting Hat decide that he > should put these four together to prevent an earlier mistake that ended in > tragedy? I've never been able to understand the Remus/Hermione parallel myself. I suppose I can imagine him being studious, but can you imagine him standing on his chair in his first day of Potions, trying to answer a question from a teacher with a nasty reputation? Anyway, I don't agree with the Generational Parallel myself (though I *still* say that Harry/Remus strikes me as a *much* better match than Hermione/Remus). Becky From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Sat Oct 12 23:10:43 2002 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (Kaarlo Moran) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 19:10:43 -0400 Subject: Thoughts on Hogwarts and other schools... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45275 >> Hello, >> I just joined this group and this email caught my eye. I also wonder about >> the possibility of other magical schools in England besides Hogwarts. If it >> was the only school, the population might be rather large. Also, if, as a >> wizard, you are admitted to Hogwarts in the calendar year that you turn 11, >> what do you do before then? We know that Harry, since he lived with muggles, >> went to regular school. I?m not familiar with the educational system in the >> U.K., but the U.S. Equivalent would be Middle-School. So, what would a >> child, born to a wizarding family, do for those first 10 years? Would there >> be an ?magical-middle school?? >> >> Also, as a first year, when you?re sorted into your perspective house, you?re >> there for the duration (unless one gets expelled for bringing up some rather >> large spiders). What happens when someone from another school wants to >> transfer? Are they also sorted? Just curious... >> >> -K > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sun Oct 13 01:24:51 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb P) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 18:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House assumptions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021013012451.82139.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45276 Kris said: Actually I think it much more likely that the marauders are the ones whose houses will be a surprise. I'm still convinced that all four were from a different house, which is why their friendship was so unique. I mean, Ron and Harry are always together and nobody seems the least bit impressed by that. Becky wrote: I'm curious by what you mean here. I haven't read anything in canon that would seem to imply that MWPP's friendship was "unique." We only have a description that "You'd have thought Black and Potter were brothers!" - PoA, The Marauder's Map [snip] Incidently, this is one of the problems I have with the "Four Houses" theory. Surely, *some* kind of notice would have been made. Me: Thank you, Becky! I am still baffled by the four houses theory. As much as people say they would like it to be true, and that it would be "neat" if it were true, and feel they can ascribe qualities of the four different houses to the four Marauders (the same can be said of the Trio), I still do not hear anyone offering solid canon evidence for this. James we know, thank goodness, thanks to JKR, so that's not even open to debate. The others, I believe, are also all in Gryffindor, but not because I simply "want" them to be. Truthfully, I'd be much happier about Pettigrew if he WERE in some other house. However, I just don't see that being the case. Going Marauder by Marauder (except for the spoken-for James): SIRIUS 1. When Hagrid brings Harry to Dumbledore (PS, p 16), this exchange takes place: 'Hagrid,' said Dumbledore, sounding relieved. 'At last. And where did you get that motorbike?' 'Borrowed it, Professor Dumbledore sir,' said the giant, climbing carefully off the motorbike as he spoke. 'Young Sirius Black lent it me.' In this passage, Hagrid seems to be referring to Sirius as a friend. Hagrid is known for making friends of dangerous creatures, but NOT Slytherins. We know what he thinks of them (probably because of Tom Riddle getting him expelled). This doesn't necessarily argue for Sirius being a Gryffindor, but it certainly seems to argue AGAINST his being a Slytherin. 2. The first mention we have ot Slytherin is when Harry meets Malfoy in the robe shop (Harry is reminded of Dudley--never a good sign). Malfoy asks a rather stupid question--whether Harry knows what house he'll be in--then admits that no one knows until they get there. However, he then goes on to say that he KNOWS he'll be in Slytherin, as all of his family have been (also expressing his belief in blood being rather important). It's after this that Harry asks Hagrid about Slytherin and Hufflepuff, and that's when Hagrid says, 'There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin.' (PS, pp. 61-62) In context, Harry had just been gloomily predicting that he'd be in Hufflepuff. I sincerely doubt that Hagrid was correct about all bad magical folk coming from Slytherin. Are we to believe that Barty Crouch had a son in Slytherin? Wouldn't that have hurt his career? (He reacted badly enough to his son being arrested because he was near where the Longbottoms had been attacked; he would have had to withstand having a Slytherin son for SEVEN YEARS.) Also, Barty Jr.'s extreme cleverness and loyalty to Voldemort make him a more likely Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff. (I lean more toward Ravenclaw.) Hagrid also would be unlikely to say to Harry, 'There's only one wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin, and he's the one responsible for your parents' murders.' Harry's just recently learned of the true nature of his parents' deaths. Hagrid has a low opinion of Slytherins. He's unlikely to qualify his statement at this time and unduly distress Harry. Just because Hagrid says something doesn't make it so. Hermione said there were only seven Animagi in the last 100 years, but she didn't know about the illegal ones. I doubt that Hagrid knows about EVERY dark wizard who's ever gone to Hogwarts and what house they were in. (The Ministry could have had it much easier during Voldemort's first reign of terror if all they had to do was look up former Slytherins and keep an eye on them.) Hagrid made a blanket statement that shows his prejudices as much as Malfoy's statements show his. Hagrid just happens to be more likable. It still doesn't mean that he knows what he's talking about. 3. Peeves identifies the Fat Lady's attacker as Sirius Black (PoA, p. 121). As a general rule, Hogwarts students only know where their own common rooms are. This, in canon, argues strongly for Sirius Black being a Gryffindor. 4. Professor McGonagall speaks of 'Black and Potter' as 'inseparable' and as 'brothers.' If Sirius were in a house other than Gryffindor, you'd think she'd have commented on how remarkable this was (as you noted, Becky!). The assumption at Hogwarts is that friends are in the same house. I believe that is why it is never said explicitly, since the Marauders' friendship (I believe) follows this rule and is NOT exceptional. LUPIN 1. When Lupin wishes Harry good luck before the Quidditch match, it DOES strongly imply (and in canon) that he is a Gryffindor. And it is not strictly true that the teachers are not permitted to show bias, as the heads of house seem to be expected to. When he's speaking about this, it seems that the desire is for teachers who are NOT heads of houses to put aside their old house loyalties and be more even-handed about what team they're cheering on now that they're teachers. The implication here is that Gryffindor is indeed his former house. There would be no other reason for him to make the statement. 2. When Lupin says that the others became his friends, he doesn't make any remarks such as, 'in spite of being from different houses.' He just says he found 'three great friends.' The implication is that he found his friends the way most Hogwarts students do--by being sorted into the same house. His description of their sneaking out using the Invisibility Cloak makes it most likely that they're dormmates. If any of them lived with other people, they would have been noticed going missing on the nights of the full moon. The way he describes them figuring out that he was a werewolf also implies that they live together. It would have been much more difficult if they didn't, and if Lupin were in, say, Ravenclaw, the other Ravenclaws, not being stupid, would have figured something out, and a Ravenclaw, I feel, would also be unlikely to keep the information to himself or herself but consider Lupin to be a danger to everyone. PETER 1. Peter is plenty brave, not particularly loyal, not particularly bright, and if he were 'ambitious' you'd think he'd aspire to BE a great dark wizard, not serve one. I already mentioned some of his bravery in an earlier post (becoming an Animagus, risking being killed by a werewolf if he screwed it up, etc.). He was sorted at the age of eleven, as someone else pointed out. It's possible that if people had to go through sorting at later times in life, it would turn out differently, but we have no reason to think he couldn't have been sorted into Gryffindor in first year. It could even be that he was in fact being very brave to become the Secret Keeper, and that someone close to him was threatened (his mother perhaps) and he gave up the Potters to save her, feeling that he was between a rock and a hard place. We just don't know enough. I strongly suspect we will find out more about how Peter came to betray the Potters that will make his actions more understandable, even if not forgivable, necessarily. 2. He is described in canon as tagging around after the other Marauders. This would be very unlikely if he weren't in the same house (Gryffindor). After all, if he was an annoying sort of tag-along all they'd have to do to shake him is go into Gryffindor Tower. Problem solved. But I believe he lived with them, and that's why he was included, because of the accident of the four of them being thrown together by their sorting. It makes the most sense and requires the least amount of dissembling. So there you have my three canon points along with subsidiary arguments about why the Marauders are all Gryffindors. The four houses theory would be interesting if it just weren't so difficult to fit into the existing story. The configuration that works best with canon is not having the four of them--or even one of them--in different houses. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Oct 13 08:25:31 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 08:25:31 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Arrest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45277 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "kateydidnt2002" wrote: Kateydidnt said: > The on going mystery as to what happened between the late night of > Oct. 31 1981 and when Hagrid delivered Harry the night of Nov. 1, > 1981 to the Dursley's where Dumbledore waited has another mystery > added to it, which stems from Madam Rosemerta's statement in PoA > (Scholasitc Hardcover pg 207 [ch 10]) that Sirius Black was > caught "the next day." > > Kateydidnt bboy_mn responds: Well, I'm at my mother's house without my books. She has copies somewhere but it's 3:00AM, and I don't think I'll wake her and ask her. So, instead of answers, let me ask some questions- What time of day did Voldemort fail in his attempt to AK Harry? Your own statement says 'late night of Oct. 31'. How late? Perhaps after midnight? To most people, Holloween night last as long as 'night' does. In other words, when people ask what you did Holloween night, you don't make the technical distinction between before and after midnight. Again, without my books, I can't verify the time. POINT: If it was after midnight most people would still consider that Holloween night even though techincally it was Nov. 1. Since it was technically Nov 1; that would make 'the next day' would be Nov 2. If my wild, no books, speculation is correct, that would seem to trim a few hours off of the missing 24 hrs. Hagrid picks Harry up between 3am and 6am, then finds a safe house until mid-evening at which time he starts flying the considerable distance from the other side of Bristol to Surrey. Sorry, I really should have my books. bboy_mn From Ali at zymurgy.org Sun Oct 13 10:09:33 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:09:33 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Student Population/Admittance to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45278 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "kateydidnt2002" wrote: A second point: I believe that you are admitted to Hogwarts in the calender year in which you turn 11, meaning all students born in the year 1980 would start at Hogwarts in 1991. Therefore, Ron was born on March 1, 1980; Harry July 31, 1980; Hermione September 19, 1980. This is supported by the fact that GoF clearly indicates that Fred and George turned 17 in April of their sixth year (Scholastic, hardcover pg 189)meaning that they were born in April of 1978 and entered Hogwarts in 1989 because that is the calendar year in which they turned eleven. I say:- Hmnn, this has been a much debated subject, but the fact remains that whatever we choose to believe canon is unclear on this point. I believe that JKR said in an interview that a magical quill at Hogwarts writes a young witch/wizard done in the year they are born. The evidence regarding when the children start, or whether they start according to the calendar or academic year is not clear. In England and Wales (upon which JKR appears to base Hogwarts academic study), the school year begins in September. Children born before September 1st start school in the September after their 11th birthday. There are very few exceptions to this, although privately educated children sometimes jump a year (meaning their birthdays are after the September the 1st cutoff). If JKR followed this format then Hermione would in fact be born in September 1979. This is my prefered reading of the text. There is no mention of Hermione being a year "ahead" in the books, which I believe there would be if her birthday followed Harry's. It is sufficiently unusual to be worthy of comment, particularly given Hermione's obvious success at Hogwarts coupled with her Muggle-born status. The alternate argument rests partly on the canon evidence that Dumbledore calls both Harry and Hermione "13 year old wizards" in the hospital scene in PoA. For my theory to be correct, Harry would indeed have been 13, but Hermione should have been 14. Other canonical referencing points;- Cedric is 17 when he enters the TriWizard tournament. He is also in the same year (the 6th year) as the twins who don't turn 17 until the following April. We are not told exactly when his birthday is, merely that he "was an extremely handsome boy of around seventeen" (GoF p67 UK paperback edition). As this was when Harry & co meet him before the Quidditch World Cup; IMO it would not be a stretch for him to have his birthday a couple of weeks later. I think it very unlikely that Cedric was in the wrong year because he had to repeat a year. Firstly, this rarely happens in England (other than for GCSE & A'level repeats), and secondly for Cedric to be good enoough to represent Hogwarts he must have been the best student to enter, and this is unlikely if he had failed a year and was repeating. Ali Who must go now as her 2 year old has just wet herself -aagh From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sun Oct 13 10:49:17 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:49:17 -0000 Subject: Catching up: MAGIC DISHWASHER, metathinking, Voldemort's body (Quite Long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45279 Hi, all. I've been away for two days (in HP-realated business), and when I've finally made my way back to the back-log of posts, I half-expected something like this, but not in such quantity. Thus, I'm going to make a general essay, instead of quoting everyone one-by-one. Metathinking ------------ I want to make this perfectly clear, because I have the feeling that people have been misunderstanding me: I don't like metathinking myself, especially against MAGIC DISHWASHER, which is based in internal evidence (and thus it is not Fair Play), but there is *nothing* wrong with metathinking per-se (and I hope I've never implied anything else). Meta-thinking is basing one's arguments in the fact that HP is a book, and there are certain things we can expect to happen: Harry will be a hero, Voldemort will fall, etc. Metathinking is *very* imprecise, since it depends heavily on subjectivity, but it is necessary when trying to out-guess JKR (good luck with *that*). I've used it myself in occasions, but I know my limits, and I know I won't be able to guess what JKR has up her sleeve, except by wild chance. However, MAGIC DISHWASHER does NOT try to out-guess anyone, nor predict future acts of Voldemort or Dumbledore, except what can be extrapolated from the theory so far (and even then, I could argue that such predictions do not belong to MAGIC DISHWASHER). All MAGIC DISHWASHER tries to do is explain what has happened so far, from the most rational point of view possible... but more of that in the MAGIC DISHWASHER section. MAGIC DISHWASHER ---------------- (Mysterious Agendas Generate Interesting Conclusion: Dumbledore Is Secretely Hatching Ways to Assure Superiority for Harry in the Emerging Resolution) The last attacks on MAGIC DISHWASHER seem to have based on the fact that some of the listees believe that Dumbledore in it is no better than Voldemort ("ruthless puppet-mastering", in words of Marina). This couldn't be further from the truth. Dumbledore has *never* treated any of his allies as pupets in MAGIC DISHWASHER, and I challange all those who have been so free with the insults to find a single example. According to MAGIC DISHWASHER, Dumbledore trusts his people will do the right thing, and agrees with them the plans to follow. Snape actions are out of free will, not because Dumbledore forces him (except in accepting Sirius). He even asks Molly before involving her and her family -to which she answers with a prompt "yes". This strikes me as typical Dumbledore behaviour: he might expect help from his friends, and count that they will help him, but he will never drive any of them into denger if they are not ready for it. And then there is Harry, which I instinctively feel is at the heart of that accusation. Harry hasn't been told, so far, of what Dumbledore's plans are, although he over-hears those that are less secret at the end of book 4 when Dumbledore puts them into motion (so he does, in fact, know that Dumbledore is playing his cards). Of course he doesn't know what the exact details are: that is information he doesn't need, right now (and what you don't know you can't reveal). Harry's purpose is still receiving an education. The defenses around him are running down, but he is not ready for battle yet (as the GG demonstrated). But I haven't answered the attacks: is Harry *driven* ("ruthlessly" or otherwise) by Dumbledore? NO! Of course not. Harry has the feeling, at the end of PS, that Dumbledore was "preparing him", that he had "right" to face Voldemort, and that Dumbledore gives him the oportunity of trying. Dumbledore could've destroyed the stone (not that it wasn't safe inside the mirror) if Harry had chikened out and decided not to do his "homework" and discover what and were the small pakage from vault 713 was. Dumbledore teaches Harry (that's his main job, after all) enough to survive, but leaves the decision of acting or not to Harry. Dumbledore trusts that Harry has a moral sense and the braveness to act upon it, but never tries to force the actions upon him. In fact, if Dumbledore has a weak point, is in his pasiveness: since he won't force anyone to act, he might suddenly find missing pieces, if some of his trusted companions of the old gang decide that they aren't risking their necks (although I don't think that will happen). Notice, also, that McGonagall and Snape try to stop them from attempting this, and even Dumbledore asks Harry not to look for the mirror (which he in fact does, although he doesn't realise that until the very end). More examples: let's go to book two. This time, Harry decides -in his own, again- to try and find out who's attaking the people in the school. I don't remember anyone related to Dumbledore suggesting it and, as always, the two main liutenants of Dumbledore try to stop them (McGonagall and Snape). Harry didn't have to take it upon himself to find the chaber of secrets, nor did he have to stop the basilisk. He was, however, the only one who could, since so far no-one can speak parseltongue but him - and Dumbledore might have suspected this, but in no way does he even try to push Harry to act. Let's change to book 3, now. Dumbledore does, in fact, suggest the way to rescue both Buckbeak and Sirius, but by then, Harry would've attempted it himself if he had known about the Time-Turner, I'm sure. In that scene, Dumbledore let's them know that he approves of what they are doing, but ha doesn't impose the decision upon them. They could have let Sirius get kissed (and Buckbeak decapitated). On that same book, Snape is sent to protect Harry in the SS in case things get out of hand, but still Harry is trusted to act according to a moral sense, instead of being forced into acting. And finally, we have book four, where Dumbledore is surprised to see Harry taken out of his grasp, several times. First, he gets introduced into the TWT, even though he sets up powerful protections against under-aged (AFAWK, no-one managed to by-pass the age line). Then, in the last task, a clever double-teleport in the Cup takes him directly to Voldemort, at a time that Dumbledore hadn't anticipated. So, there, you go. If any of the listees which have attacked MAGIC DISHWASHER wants to explain their point of view, they are welcome. Now, for a bit of clarification, since people seem to be confusing a few things. First, MAGIC DISHWASHER and Spy Games are the same thing (including "I want you to die, Mr. potter", Eileen aka lucky_kari). They are all the same theory, calling it by name or by accronym. During my recent meeting with the person behind the creation of the theory, I've discovered that there may be a third part on the works (we'll have to wait and see), but they are basically all the same thing: assuming that there is logic behind the actions of Dumbledore and Voldemort, we patch toghether what that logic may be. Pip uncovered quite a lot of canon to base her thories upon, and you can read all about them in the apropiate posts (39662 and 40044). There are many "patches" (i.e. explanations) to those two posts, when people starting looking for holes in them, but there is no possible defense against "I don't think such-and-such is like that because this is a book, and I don't expect that that would happen in a book", since this theory is NOT based in the fact that it is a book. Those sort of attacks (which I, or maybe someone else- I don't remember anymore- called metathinking), while appropiate in other cases (for example, Big Bang theories), are not fair play against MAGIC DISHWASHER (I think that they're wrong anyway: just as you couldn't out-guess Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, I don't think we can out-guess JKR's HP), since, as I've already said like 100 times, MAGIC DISHWASHER tries to explain what is going on from the point of view of the reality of Potterverse (the point of View of Dumbledore and Voldemort, if you will). In a nutshell, who knows what and why, and what they are going to do about it. Voldemort's Body ---------------- Lately, there seems to have been an upsurge of posts around Voldemort's recorporation (and the gleam, of course). My own views are this: Voldemort is, in his Vapour form, inmortal. Almost powerless, yes, but inmortal. And his mind still works perfectly well, which makes him almost as dangerous as when he had a body, but with inmortality to boot. If he had been a little patient, he could've waited for a couple of hundred years before making his come-back, and no-one would've remembered him (except Flammel, maybe), and could've taken over the world in a surprise attack. However, Voldemort is consumed by his desire of power, and patience, I'd imagine, tends to wear a bit thin after 10 years of possesing bunnies. So, he spends his time remembering ways of achieving an inmortality that would also allow him to use a wand. The easiest thing, of course, is the PS, but we know there is at least one more way: the potion (and I'd imagine that there must be a few more, at the very least). When the PS idea goes down the drain, he goes for the next easiest: re-corporating. By his own words, he's becoming mortal once again. But that's no big problem, since he can simply repeat whatever spells made him inmortal in the first place: he doesn't seem to have problems to find ingredients for potions, especially now that he has re-contacted his DEs. But that's where MAGIC DISHWASHER and Dumbledore's plans come in: after the near-fiasco with the PS, Dumbledore's plans gear into motion, by gently guiding him towards the flawed potion (my guess is that the flaw is in the ingredients, especially Harry's blood and Peter's flesh). Normally, the potion would have gien him a new body where he could re-construct his inmortality safety measures, but this new body is going to prove *too* mortal. Metathinking tells us that Harry will be involved somehow. So does MAGIC DISHWASHER, because Dumbledore has spent a lot of time training Harry. hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who fears this post is too long to make sense (and in fact, many things have been snipped of, just for sake of *some* clarity) From gte510i at prism.gatech.edu Sun Oct 13 18:01:00 2002 From: gte510i at prism.gatech.edu (gte510i) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:01:00 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Hogwarts and other schools... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45280 Welcome to the list! Actually, While I cannot pinpoint the interview, I believe that JKR has pointedly stated that there are no other magical schools in the UK. I wish there were, it would make for a larger magical population than just what we can extrapolate from the number of children we can see at hogwarts. Also, it could be that some of these schools could be 'niche' schools. LIke schools for squibs or almost squibs, or trade schools. But JKR has said there is not. As for what to do for ages 5-10? (which would actually be elementary school, as hogwarts covers the three years of middle and the four years of highschool) There has been a lot of speculation on that. The children come in already knowing how to read, so there has been some education. Perhaps some go to muggle schools but I don't see that working out too well. Could you imagine Arthur Weasly at a parent teacher conference- not paying attention becuase of his fascination with the overhead projector? Also, I would think that the Malfoys wouldn't deign to send Draco to a muggle school. They either go to schools run my wizards for pre-magic education that is a pre-requisite for attending Hogwarts, or else they are homeschooled. Which due to the isolation of some of the wizarding families is quite likely. Perhapse Hogwarts or MoM put out a curriculum for parents to use a guidelines. A formal elementary school would probably cover reading, latin (due to the spells being in latin)math and perhaps an introduction into wizarding secrecy laws that cover why-exactly-you-can't-play-quidditch-in-the-backyard-after- school, and no-you-canot-get-a-wand-until-you-are-admitted-to- hogwarts. The distintion between wizarding education pre before and after the age of 11 is that you can't actually perform magic. Because of the danger that is inherent in magic it is necessary to have a good grounding into basics and rules for use before you even touch a wand. This is also re-hashed the first few weeks of Hogwarts for the benefit of muggle-borns and children who's parents have been lax on some of the education. Harry says in PS/SS that his classes became more enjoyable now that they had covered the basics. I am stopping now because I am starting to ramble. I hope this helps catherine From DMCourt11 at cs.com Sun Oct 13 18:29:07 2002 From: DMCourt11 at cs.com (bookraptor11) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:29:07 -0000 Subject: About AK and death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45281 Sorry if this has been dealt with before, I generally lurk and am sure I can't have read every post on this subject. What I seem to be hearing in what I have read is questions of why AK is unforgivable, and if Dumbledore would use it on Voldemort, and also why Crouch authorised aurors to use it against DE's. Since I haven't read anything that matches my take on the AK, thought I'd give it here. I don't think AK is the only way to kill a wizard, though since it is unblockable it is probably the most effective. What makes AK unforgiveable is not that it kills someone, but that the killer then has possession of his victim's powers, or life force, and thus is able to enhance his own wizarding powers. That is why, in GOF's graveyard scene, we see Harry's wand drawing the shades of his victims out of Voldemort's wand. I think with wizards he gets both life force and wizardly powers. Even life force must be important, or why would he waste AK on muggles? If Harry could have kept the connection going, V's father and grandparent's would have been the last shades to appear. I couldn't find it in GOF, but it would be significant if Wormtail brought Voldemort his wand. Perhaps it was having it, plus the taking of Bertha Jorkin's life force that helped Wormtail and Nagini restore him to that baby form. Dumbledore does wish to see Voldemort dead, but not with the evil of becoming, or letting Harry become, a parasite who feeds off someone else's life force. The fact that Crouch would authorise AK for his aurors as a way to even the odds shows how good can be corrupted. It is probably why Dumbledore has carried on the fight largely seperately from the MOM. I haven't checked GOF for this, but I believe though it said Moody did kill as a last resort, it never mentions him using the AK. I have a feeling he wouldn't be so close to Dumbledore, or been allowed to teach if he had. When Harry released those shades, I hope that means they were freed for good from V. With all the people Voldemort has AK'd in his long life, his power probably wasn't reduced significantly. Donna From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Oct 13 18:52:15 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 13:52:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House assumptions References: Message-ID: <011c01c272e9$a6b93fe0$eaa1cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45282 Becky writes: > I'm curious by what you mean here. I haven't read anything in canon > that would seem to imply that MWPP's friendship was "unique." We only > have a description that "You'd have thought Black and Potter were > brothers!" - PoA, The Marauder's Map And it was said that you never saw one without the other. Big deal if they were in the same house. You rarely see Harry without Ron. Nobody seems the least bit impressed by that. If they were in different houses, though, it would be a big deal. Something worth commenting on some 18 years later. > Incidently, this is one of the problems I have with the "Four Houses" > theory. Surely, *some* kind of notice would have been made. I find it more interesting that not one time has either Sirius Black or Remus Lupin made mention of what house any of the four were in. The only person who's blatantly been put in a house is Snape (he was *part* of a gang of Slytherins). It's my personal opinion that the subject has been intentionally avoided by JKR to wait for the "big moment" to reveal it. > Another problem I have. I *can't* see Peter as a Hufflepuff. Loyal, > diligent? > And I can't see him as being a loyal follower of LV who wormed his > way in either. It mentions in canon that he'd been passing > information to for a year before James and Lily were killed (PoA, The > Servant of Lord Voldemort), which is a long time for a spy, but not > long enough that I would think he really *was* being a "loyal > Hufflepuff." Not to mention he isn't loyal to LV either. That's the point. Sirius *thought* he would be the loyal one, because he was a Hufflepuff and Hufflepuffs are supposed to be loyal. But to who, hmm? He has, of recent times, been loyal to Voldemort. One could say it was fear, I suppose, but it takes a lot to make a person lliterally cut off their own arm. And he did return to him of his own free will. A rat could easily have hidden away again. > Lupin: "Let's drink to a Gryffindor victory against Ravenclaw!" (PoA - > The Patronus) > I find it unlikely that Lupin would turn out to *be* a Ravenclaw > after this. You can argue that he was just being nice to Harry, but > there are plent of ways to wish luck on the game without an obvious > reference to Gryffindor winning. Consider this. Lupin has been spending a *lot* of his limited free time training Harry to defend himself against the dementors. Harry's entire purpose was to defend himself if the dementors came to another Quidditch match. After all that, what's Lupin supposed to say? "Have a good time, Harry, hope you lose." Not likely. Second, he was good friends with James Potter. If James was on the Gryffindor Quidditch team and Remus was a Ravenclaw, I don't think it's impossible that Remus could've been a bit pleased when James won. > Sirius: "You'd have thought Black and Potter were brothers!" (- PoA, > The Marauder's Map). We haven't seen any really close inter-House > relationships. If Sirius turned out to be a Slytherin, I think some > explaining would be needed about why it hasn't been mentioned yet > (with a whole lot of people trying to think of an explanation for > Sirius' betrayal). An "I forgot to tell you" wouldn't cut it. If Sirius was a Slytherin it would also explain why Snape hated him so much as well. Your housemates are supposed to be close to you, not try to get you killed. And when would Sirius have been talking to Snape away from James to slip him that little bit of info about the whomping willow? > Peter: Already addressed Hufflepuff, his actions speak for > themselves. And while he hasn't shown loyalty, he *has* shown > bravery. People often show their bravery when they have to defend > their most important possession. The fact that Pettigrew has chosen > his life can't be proof that he's not *brave.* Cedric Diggory, a known Hufflepuff, was described by Dumbledore as "a boy who was good and kind and brave." You can be brave and be a Hufflepuff. Bravery is not reserved for Gryffindors only. > James: We know JKR answered in an interview a question about what > position James played on the *Gryffindor* Quidditch team. While only > saying James was Chaser, there *is* an implication that James is a > Gryffindor. Right. She has never 100% confirmed, nor denied, that James was in Gryffindor. Though it would come as a nasty shock to Harry if he wasn't. > Gryffindor - most obvious choice. Lily was in it, JKR has said by > omission that James was in it. Comes out best match for them in > comparison to the other Houses. Well, not entirely. If indeed James *wasn't* in Gryffindor, JKR is not going to give it away in an interview. It would be a big surprise to everyone (particularly Harry), so I don't consider that confirmation just because she didn't say, no wait, he wasn't on the Gryffindor team, it was Ravenclaw (or whatever). > But that's why I'm arguing against it. No big deal *is* made out of > MWPP. The only reason they emphasized the closeness seems to be > because of the supposed betrayal. I'l reiterate the above mentioned. The fact that they are spoken of as never being seen apart approximately *eighteen* years later is in and of itself a big deal. Barb writes: > In this passage, Hagrid seems to be referring to Sirius as a friend. Hagrid is known for making friends of dangerous creatures, but NOT Slytherins. We know what he thinks of them (probably because of Tom Riddle getting him expelled). This doesn't necessarily argue for Sirius being a Gryffindor, but it certainly seems to argue AGAINST his being a Slytherin. Not necessarily. If Hagrid liked James Potter and James Potter liked Sirius Black, it's easy enough to convince Hagrid to like Sirius Black. Since this was before Black was made into the villan. > 3. Peeves identifies the Fat Lady's attacker as Sirius Black (PoA, p. 121). As a general rule, Hogwarts students only know where their own common rooms are. This, in canon, argues strongly for Sirius Black being a Gryffindor. Err, excuse me? As a general rule students haven't personally helped make the a Marauder's Map either!!! I have utterly no idea why anyone can use that excuse (that Sirius wouldn't have known where the Gryffindor common room was if he weren't in Gryffindor). He helped make the Marauder's Map for Pete's sake!!! A map that showed ALL of Hogwarts. With that much sneaking around, he'd have had to be a complete idiot *not* to know where the entrance to the Gryffindor common room was. > 4. Professor McGonagall speaks of 'Black and Potter' as 'inseparable' and as 'brothers.' If Sirius were in a house other than Gryffindor, you'd think she'd have commented on how remarkable this was (as you noted, Becky!). The assumption at Hogwarts is that friends are in the same house. I believe that is why it is never said explicitly, since the Marauders' friendship (I believe) follows this rule and is NOT exceptional. For the third time, the fact that she remarked on their insperableness at all WAS remarkable!!! Once again, no one finds it unique that Harry and Ron are inseparable. Or Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle. They're *supposed* to be inseparable because they're in the same house. > 2. When Lupin says that the others became his friends, he doesn't make any remarks such as, 'in spite of being from different houses.' He just says he found 'three great friends.' As I said above, if the Marauder's *do* turn out to be from different houses, JKR is *not* going to let it slip until she's ready. Lupin has no control over what he does or doesn't say. It's JKR. :) Okay, enough of that. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 13 19:17:47 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 19:17:47 -0000 Subject: Pre-MAGICAL DISHWASHER Plan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45283 Tip-toeing into the discussing, I gingerly place this post on the doorstep of Mr. Grey Wolf's and Mrs. Pip-Squeak's respective houses... While I have no problem with the logic of MAGICAL DISHWASHER and greatly admire the tremendous research and swift defense you both have on your theory, I do want to continue with your train of thought if I may. It is obvious that Voldemort and Dumbledore are being very tactical and methodical. Dumbledore does not join the jubilee that Voldemort is finally dead. He *knows* that Voldemort is still alive out there. How he *knows* this is not said in the books directly. We assume it because Dumbledore still feels it is necessary to protect Harry and keep his guard up thus knowing that Voldemort is after the stone. Now pushing aside the pre-Halloween night War, we can wonder what happened between November 2nd and June 10 years later. I really doubt Dumbledore kicked his heels up and ate lemon drops. And I also doubt Voldemort just amused himself in the woods for 10 years just waiting. Neither man seems that complacent. Now Grey commented: >>>However, Voldemort is consumed by his desire of power, and patience, I'd imagine, tends to wear a bit thin after 10 years of possesing bunnies. So, he spends his time remembering ways of achieving an inmortality that would also allow him to use a wand.<<< Possibly, possibly, I cannot refute you there. The only canon evidence to what Voldie is doing during those 10 years is by his own words in the graveyard, and you yourself do not believe he was telling the whole truth. Voldemort was definitely scheming like a man in solitary confinement. All you have is yourself and your mind, and Voldie only *had* the later. Frankly he seems more bent on getting back to a body, and then his own body, than immortality. Why Voldemort did not make his own Sorcerer's Stone long before is beyond me. Seems a brilliant man like him, or Dumbledore, could manage it. But I digress, VaporMort in the woods wants to succeed. Being bested by a one year old baby is poison for the ego. And has been said earlier, ego is the driving motivator of a Slytherin...Voldemort must show the present WW and himself that he is most powerful and is capable of being the greatest. The way he chooses to show them is by being immortal and by destroy who he wishes. Voldemort felt threatened before he went after the Potters and still does. He believes that someone or something is standing between him and his goals. (immortality, king over all kings, ability to torture those bunnies...) How he knows that something is standing in his way is not stated in the canon...yet. Many muse here that it is Trelawney's prediction or something to do with Potter's lineage. Which it is does not really matter to this post, so we'll just say that there is evident that Voldemort has *reason* to fear the existence of a Potter. Now Dumbledore feels it necessary to protect Harry. He goes to great lengths to do so. Under this assumption, we can deduce that Dumbledore believes Voldemort is still a threat and that Harry is still in danger. (I know, I know, did not take a lot of logic to figure that one out. Calm down.) Now, having Harry *securely* protected by relatives and Mrs. Figg for 10 years and able to watch Harry by his wizard watch, , Dumbledore can relax just a bit. He, nor anyone else, i.e. Snape, does not go after Voldemort nor does he try to convince the MoM that Voldemort is still a threat. Dumbledore does not seem to believe that Voldemort will come around for a while. I am tap-dancing around to say that Dumbledore knows that Voldemort's mind is bent to destroying Harry. As if Harry is the one thing standing between Voldie and all his goals. Voldemort, somehow, knows that Harry is well protected and knows he cannot get to him. I do not believe Voldemort when he said that "Surely, one of my faithful Death Eaters would try and find me...but I waited in vain" (GoF ch 33). He knows too much to be completely alone for 10 whole years. Now it could be coincident that Voldie remerged at the same time Potter left his safety net, or it could be that Voldie might as well wait for 10 long years until he could get himself a body and get to Harry. Voldemort knew Harry would be going to school in 10 years and would be out of his air-tight protection. Even Hogwarts, as protected as it is, is more vulnerable than Privet Drive. Dumbledore, knowing Voldemort's desires, uses this to bring Voldemort to his playing field. Dumbledore seems to be taunting Voldemort by saying, "Look, I have the two things you want. I dare you." After all, Dumbledore has also had 10 years to plan this showdown. If they manage to capture Voldemort and force upon him a way to destroy him then the war is over. Obviously they cannot kill the body Voldie possess, as learned in PS/SS. The question is whether Dumbledore knew this before PS/SS? Dumbledore places the pieces to destroy Voldemort into the scene. A lone Harry facing the present form of Voldemort. With the many blocking spells and enchantment by the teachers, Harry and Co. do not believe they were meant to do what they were doing. The tasks also removed Ron and Hermione leaving Harry to face QuirrelMort alone. Maybe the same magic that protected Harry before can help him here...which it does. It blisters Quirrel away. So, Harry does thwart the stone scheme, but doesn't kill Voldemort this time. Dumbledore now knows that Voldie can only be killed in his own body. So after the stone and mirror, Dumbledore has to change his plan. This is where MAGICAL DISHWASHER comes into play. Dumbledore knows that it must be lone Harry and a physical Voldemort now. So all Dumbledore has to do is prepare and school Harry and set up a situation where he can help control the possible variables. How Dumbledore knows that it must be this combination falls back on to the question of predictions and lineage. I hope I explained this well. Basically this theory as well as MD is based on the fact that there is always more going on that what a child perceives, and adults always knows more than a child gives them credit. Melody From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 13 19:46:05 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 19:46:05 -0000 Subject: House assumptions In-Reply-To: <011c01c272e9$a6b93fe0$eaa1cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45284 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > Becky writes: > > > I'm curious by what you mean here. I haven't read anything in canon > > that would seem to imply that MWPP's friendship was "unique." We only > > have a description that "You'd have thought Black and Potter were > > brothers!" - PoA, The Marauder's Map > > And it was said that you never saw one without the other. Big deal if they > were in the same house. You rarely see Harry without Ron. Nobody seems the > least bit impressed by that. That's because Ron hasn't betrayed Harry to be murdered. If he ever does, you can bet there will be a whole lot of people saying, "My God, I can't believe it! Why, he and Harry were inseperable!" It's Sirius' supposed betrayal that makes his closeness with James seem so remarkable by hindsight. > If Sirius was a Slytherin it would also explain why Snape hated him so much > as well. Your housemates are supposed to be close to you, not try to get > you killed. Oh, come on, do your really think Snape needs an *extra* reason to hate Sirius? After the Whomping Willow prank, and whatever whatever taunting/bullying/other interpersonal conflict may have taken place before it? This is Snape we're talking about. He'll hate you if you look at him cross-eyed. Plus, Snape's hatred of Gryffindors only makes sense if Gryffindor house was the main source of his misery. If the Marauders were spread across all four houses, there would be no reason for him to single out Gryffindor for his hatred. There would especially be no reason for it if Sirius wasn't in Gryffindor. > Cedric Diggory, a known Hufflepuff, was described by Dumbledore as "a boy > who was good and kind and brave." You can be brave and be a Hufflepuff. > Bravery is not reserved for Gryffindors only. That's right. Bravery is not reserved for Gryffindors, and loyalty is not reserved for Hufflepuffs, and intelligence is not reserved for Ravenclaws, etc. So there's no reason to assume that the Marauders needed to come from all four houses in order to have all four traits, or that their different personalities mean they couldn't have all come from the same house. If Harry, Ron, Hermione and Neville can all come from Gryffindor, I see no reason why James, Sirius, Peter and Remus couldn't have. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sun Oct 13 19:49:52 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 20:49:52 +0100 Subject: Voldemorts plan (related to: Pre-MAGICAL DISHWASHER Plan References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45285 Voldemort has to hide for a few years at least. As he says, the aurors are searching for him and, as a ghost, he cannot defend himself. Therefore, he must remain hidden from view until the WW returns to being complatent. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Melody To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 8:17 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pre-MAGICAL DISHWASHER Plan Tip-toeing into the discussing, I gingerly place this post on the doorstep of Mr. Grey Wolf's and Mrs. Pip-Squeak's respective houses... While I have no problem with the logic of MAGICAL DISHWASHER and greatly admire the tremendous research and swift defense you both have on your theory, I do want to continue with your train of thought if I may. It is obvious that Voldemort and Dumbledore are being very tactical and methodical. Dumbledore does not join the jubilee that Voldemort is finally dead. He *knows* that Voldemort is still alive out there. How he *knows* this is not said in the books directly. We assume it because Dumbledore still feels it is necessary to protect Harry and keep his guard up thus knowing that Voldemort is after the stone. Now pushing aside the pre-Halloween night War, we can wonder what happened between November 2nd and June 10 years later. I really doubt Dumbledore kicked his heels up and ate lemon drops. And I also doubt Voldemort just amused himself in the woods for 10 years just waiting. Neither man seems that complacent. Now Grey commented: >>>However, Voldemort is consumed by his desire of power, and patience, I'd imagine, tends to wear a bit thin after 10 years of possesing bunnies. So, he spends his time remembering ways of achieving an inmortality that would also allow him to use a wand.<<< Possibly, possibly, I cannot refute you there. The only canon evidence to what Voldie is doing during those 10 years is by his own words in the graveyard, and you yourself do not believe he was telling the whole truth. Voldemort was definitely scheming like a man in solitary confinement. All you have is yourself and your mind, and Voldie only *had* the later. Frankly he seems more bent on getting back to a body, and then his own body, than immortality. Why Voldemort did not make his own Sorcerer's Stone long before is beyond me. Seems a brilliant man like him, or Dumbledore, could manage it. But I digress, VaporMort in the woods wants to succeed. Being bested by a one year old baby is poison for the ego. And has been said earlier, ego is the driving motivator of a Slytherin...Voldemort must show the present WW and himself that he is most powerful and is capable of being the greatest. The way he chooses to show them is by being immortal and by destroy who he wishes. Voldemort felt threatened before he went after the Potters and still does. He believes that someone or something is standing between him and his goals. (immortality, king over all kings, ability to torture those bunnies...) How he knows that something is standing in his way is not stated in the canon...yet. Many muse here that it is Trelawney's prediction or something to do with Potter's lineage. Which it is does not really matter to this post, so we'll just say that there is evident that Voldemort has *reason* to fear the existence of a Potter. Now Dumbledore feels it necessary to protect Harry. He goes to great lengths to do so. Under this assumption, we can deduce that Dumbledore believes Voldemort is still a threat and that Harry is still in danger. (I know, I know, did not take a lot of logic to figure that one out. Calm down.) Now, having Harry *securely* protected by relatives and Mrs. Figg for 10 years and able to watch Harry by his wizard watch, , Dumbledore can relax just a bit. He, nor anyone else, i.e. Snape, does not go after Voldemort nor does he try to convince the MoM that Voldemort is still a threat. Dumbledore does not seem to believe that Voldemort will come around for a while. I am tap-dancing around to say that Dumbledore knows that Voldemort's mind is bent to destroying Harry. As if Harry is the one thing standing between Voldie and all his goals. Voldemort, somehow, knows that Harry is well protected and knows he cannot get to him. I do not believe Voldemort when he said that "Surely, one of my faithful Death Eaters would try and find me...but I waited in vain" (GoF ch 33). He knows too much to be completely alone for 10 whole years. Now it could be coincident that Voldie remerged at the same time Potter left his safety net, or it could be that Voldie might as well wait for 10 long years until he could get himself a body and get to Harry. Voldemort knew Harry would be going to school in 10 years and would be out of his air-tight protection. Even Hogwarts, as protected as it is, is more vulnerable than Privet Drive. Dumbledore, knowing Voldemort's desires, uses this to bring Voldemort to his playing field. Dumbledore seems to be taunting Voldemort by saying, "Look, I have the two things you want. I dare you." After all, Dumbledore has also had 10 years to plan this showdown. If they manage to capture Voldemort and force upon him a way to destroy him then the war is over. Obviously they cannot kill the body Voldie possess, as learned in PS/SS. The question is whether Dumbledore knew this before PS/SS? Dumbledore places the pieces to destroy Voldemort into the scene. A lone Harry facing the present form of Voldemort. With the many blocking spells and enchantment by the teachers, Harry and Co. do not believe they were meant to do what they were doing. The tasks also removed Ron and Hermione leaving Harry to face QuirrelMort alone. Maybe the same magic that protected Harry before can help him here...which it does. It blisters Quirrel away. So, Harry does thwart the stone scheme, but doesn't kill Voldemort this time. Dumbledore now knows that Voldie can only be killed in his own body. So after the stone and mirror, Dumbledore has to change his plan. This is where MAGICAL DISHWASHER comes into play. Dumbledore knows that it must be lone Harry and a physical Voldemort now. So all Dumbledore has to do is prepare and school Harry and set up a situation where he can help control the possible variables. How Dumbledore knows that it must be this combination falls back on to the question of predictions and lineage. I hope I explained this well. Basically this theory as well as MD is based on the fact that there is always more going on that what a child perceives, and adults always knows more than a child gives them credit. Melody Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Ali at zymurgy.org Sun Oct 13 20:19:48 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 20:19:48 -0000 Subject: The Unforgivables - a different slant Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45286 Whilst I understand the argument favoured by Grey Wolf and Melody amongst others that the curses are unforgivable because they are unblockable, I personally feel that the difference between being able to resist a curse ? i.e. mentally resist it, as opposed to physically block it, is perhaps a technicality. The end result is the same, the effects of the curse can be avoided. For me, it is the combination of intent and act that make the curses unforgivable. IMO, the Unforgivables all deprive the victim of their right of self- determination; AK in the most obvious and final way. In English Law a crime consists of 2 components: The crime itself (actus reus) The intent (Mens Rea) Whilst muggles and one supposes wizards can be killed in many different ways, what stands out with AK is that these alternate ways can do things other than kill. AK does one thing and one thing only and that is take life. For instance, a gun will kill if it contains a bullet and if it is pointed at a nearby head and achieves its target. However, a gun is also used to fire a noise into the air to start a race. Hands might be used to wring a neck, thus taking life, but they could also be used to wring out wet clothes. IMO AK is unforgivable as it will always combine both the physical act with the intention. Once the curse is correctly cast, it can not be blocked. The object of the curse will die (unless they are Harry of course). The fact that AK is the only unforgivable "killing curse", does not make other killing methods more justifiable or less "bad"? they could presumably result in a life sentence to Azkaban. I am unsure how a "failed" curse would be perceived by the WW. For instance, Moody tells Harry's class that there must be considerable force behind an AK spell. If a child or weak wizard tries and fails, they must surely be guilty of attempted AK. Their punishment would then perhaps depend on how successful they thought that they would be. For instance, if the Neville we know was to try to attempt AK, nobody would expect him to be successful. His failure would have been easy to predict, and would lessen the status of the "crime"- in my eyes at least. BTW. Whilst I understand the concept of AK taking a wizard's powers and storing them in the wand, I personally don't believe that argument, at this point in time I haven't seen evidence that shows power being transferred from victim to wand ? although I accept it's a perfectly valid interpretation. Right of Self Determination: IMO both the Cruciatus curse and the Imperius curse are Unforgivable as they take away their victim's right of self-determination, and place them at the mercy of another. The Imperius curse can be blocked, so whilst this ability is unusual, it is possible. IIRC, we are not told whether the Cruciatus curse can be blocked, although we are certainly given no clue that this is possible. Once again, the only purpose of these curses is to place you under somebody else's power. The castor could be using the curses for kicks, to achieve an action or gain information, but they are forcing the victim to act against their will. There is no other possible outcome, there is no other possible intention. Ali From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sun Oct 13 21:27:32 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:27:32 -0000 Subject: Pre-MAGICAL DISHWASHER Plan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45287 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > Tip-toeing into the discussing, I gingerly place this post on the > doorstep of Mr. Grey Wolf's and Mrs. Pip-Squeak's respective > houses... We both live at the safe house, in theory bay (I in the garden, Pip in the house itself), so it's not as if you have to go very far to leave each copy... > While I have no problem with the logic of MAGICAL DISHWASHER and > greatly admire the tremendous research and swift defense you both > have on your theory, I do want to continue with your train of thought > if I may. By all means, do! MAGIC DISHWASHER, Spy theories in general and the safe house are open to everyone who wishes to join! I know it looks as if it's just the two of us (she created it and I'm very loud in my opinions), but I for one would love to have more people join us. In fact, some have accepted, and others have been made (sometimes against their better thought) honorary members for adding variants to the theory. Speaking of which, although I'm going to pick a few details with your own variation, Melody, I have quite liked it. It's not 100% compatible with my own view of MAGIC DISHWASHER, but it's perfectly all right, really. > > > Melody (just for those that don't have the "up thread" buttom: the theory states that Dumbledore plan was tempting Voldemort out of Albania with the PS and Harry, and that the flawed potion idea didn't come up until that one failed) The main two points I see that I don't especially like (read: I prefer my own version) is the fact that Harry is Voldemort's main objective and that the flawed potion idea was thought *after* PS. But both points can be relaxed somewhat. I myself have toyed with the idea that Dumbledore baited Voldemort out of Albania by means of the stone and -why not- revenge on Harry (but the stone being the important point, Harry being in the nature of a bonus), but I'm not really sure about that point (simply for lack of canon). I am working on it right now, and if I reach a conclusion, one way or another, i'll post something on the list. If I reach the conclusion that it is possible that such was Dumbledore's plan (although I keep hitting a rock called "Dumbledore wouldn't risk Harry by using him for bait"), it would be in the nature of "plan B", with plan A being the flawed potion. Allow me to elaborate: The flawed potion plan states that, to kill Voldemort, the easiest way would be to make him become mortal again, and then kill him. Assuming that there are several ways to resurrect or recorporate a given individual, the old gang found a way that, while seeming to do what Voldemort wanted, in fact had a big flaw that would, in the end, make easier (or simply possible) his ultimate defeat. Of course, to guide Voldemort into using the potion couldn't be managed the direct way (Voldy isn't stupid enought to use a potion suggested by his enemies), so they made all the other methods even more difficult than that one. Although we can't know what those methods are, I believe that the old gang has been making them ever-so-unreacheable for the last 10 years. For example, it might have been one of the reasons behind Arthur's anti-enchanted muggle objects laws. All that, of course, had to be done since the very beggining: there is no time to make other methods difficult in just the two years between PS and GoF. And that is the reason that, while I might accept that Voldemort was tempted by the PS out of Albania, the main plan has always been built around the flawed potion (I'll possibly be able to tell you what the rest of the plan is about in a couple of books ). Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who would be very happy if Melody decided to join the MAGIC DISHWASHER org, with a honorary membership for adding a variation. From jmmears at comcast.net Sun Oct 13 21:43:24 2002 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:43:24 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Student Population/Admittance to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45288 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ali" wrote: Presenting evidence against Kateydidnt2002's assertion that Hermione was born in 1980: > > Other canonical referencing points;- > > Cedric is 17 when he enters the TriWizard tournament. He is also in > the same year (the 6th year) as the twins who don't turn 17 until the > following April. We are not told exactly when his birthday is, merely > that he "was an extremely handsome boy of around seventeen" (GoF p67 > UK paperback edition). As this was when Harry & co meet him before > the Quidditch World Cup; IMO it would not be a stretch for him to > have his birthday a couple of weeks later. I think it very unlikely > that Cedric was in the wrong year because he had to repeat a year. > Firstly, this rarely happens in England (other than for GCSE & > A'level repeats), and secondly for Cedric to be good enoough to > represent Hogwarts he must have been the best student to enter, and > this is unlikely if he had failed a year and was repeating. In addition to the evidence Ali presents above, Hermione states, "I've heard he's a very good student - *and* he's a Prefect." (GoF, chapter 15). There's no way Cedric Diggory was held back to repeat a year. Even Crabbe and Goyle get promoted every year, and they are portrayed as being extremely stupid. Marcus Flint is probably the only student in Hogwarts history to have had to repeat, and that was probably only in order to correct a slip-up on JKR's part. Also, we have Angelina Johnson as being another student to have turned 17 shortly before Halloween in GoF, enabling her to legitimately put her name in to enter the Triwizard Tournament. It's true that we don't really know from canon whether she's a sixth or seventh year student, but I've always assumed that she was in the same year as Fred & George. We will find out for sure when book 5 comes out, because if she's still at Hogwarts then, she will be our first confirmed example of a student being "old" for her year. Jo Serenadust, who can't wait to see this issue put to rest in OOP From htfulcher at comcast.net Sun Oct 13 21:44:19 2002 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:44:19 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Student Population/Admittance to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45289 kateydidnt2002wrote: >I was reading up in the FAQ on the numerous theories surrounding the Student Population of Hogwarts and I did not see one point brought up. It is possible that some British wizards send their children to foreign schools. Draco alludes to this possibility in GoF (Scholasitc, Hardcover pg 165) when the trio hear him say his father wanted to send him to Durmstrang.< I read the FAQ on this and have perused the discussion. Frankly, this has never struck me as much of a boner. JKF says there's about 1000 students. (FAQ footnote 13. Online Chat with J.K. Rowling, Scholastic, 16 October 2000.) The argument for fewer students seems to hinge on the mention of only 10 or so students per house in Harry's class. If we look back on our own school years didn't we have close friends, and also acquaintances, and then that rather larger group of people we might have seen but never knew personally? It seems more probable (could I start a new abbrv cnvntn? "ISMP" or is that already known?) that JKR simply gives us the names of those with whom Harry has a closer association either in his own house or through shared classes. I'm not familiar with the British boarding school system to know whether in such an institution there is only, say, one Math class for a particular grade. Could Hogwarts not have multiple DADA or Potions Classes for the first years? Harry shares Potions with the Slytherins but there could be more than one Potions classes for Gryffindor first years. I agree that the canon may be confused on this issue, but it just never struck me as being so until I read the FAQ. On the attendence at other schools issue: just because a student is down to attend Hogwarts need not compell them to do so. Harry must reply to his letter of admittance. He _could_ have held out for Smelting.... ;-) MarEphraim From skelkins at attbi.com Sun Oct 13 23:18:49 2002 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 23:18:49 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Arthur Weasley With Imperius Curse and Small Craft Advisories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45290 REPENT! THE END IS NIGH! Says the writing spray-painted on the wall of Hypothetic Alley. The Alley is eerily deserted these days. Many of the shops are closed and locked, hastily hand-written signs ("Early storm closing," "Back for OoP," "Gone fishing...INLAND") hung in their windows. Old newspapers and discarded chocolate wrappers skitter across the cobbles, borne along by the disturbingly cold wind which has been picking up speed ever since sometime in September. Other than the howling of the wind, the only sound to be heard is the frantic hammering of those few intrepid shopkeepers who have already begun to prepare; they stand on rickety ladders, nailing thick protective boards up over their windows and doors. Down at the shore itself, stalls have been left abandoned, the docks are desolate. Cigarette butts and grease-spotted wrappings litter the bases of the bins along the promenade, each one cheerily labelled "KEEP THEORY BAY TIDY!" (People have been far less willing to pick up the trash ever since the construction of the Safe House at the far end of the Bay.) A child's bucket and spade sits beside a half-completed sand castle on the empty strand. Hoarse shouts of workmen drift down from the seawall above the promenade, where a host of citizens is gathered together, hefting huge bags of sand up onto the woefully inadequate barrecades. They yell and gesture and groan as they bustle, every last one of them casting frequent nervous glances above them, to the weather station flagpole on the headland high above the Bay. Ever since September, there has been a flag flying from that pole. A single red flag, with a black square in the center. Small craft advisory. Hurricane watch. ********************************************************************** Veronica walked along the strand, her head bowed over message number 37121. She was so engrossed in her text that she failed to notice the wild-eyed madwoman stumbling in the opposite direction until they had physically collided. "Repent!" screamed the madwoman. Veronica staggered backwards, staring. The woman was coated with grime and covered with scratches. Her clothing was ripped and tattered, her hair matted into a single snarl. Her eyes rolled wildly in their sockets. "Repent!" she screamed again. "The day of reckoning is at hand! Oh, can't you smell it on the air? Can't you hear it in the wind?" Veronica took another step backwards, but the woman reached out and caught her sleeve in one claw-like hand. "Didn't you hear about the BBC interview?" she shrieked. "Oh, it is later than you think! It is later than you think!" "Let go of me!" cried Veronica, tugging at her sleeve. "You--" The filthy remains of a set of battered featherboas around the woman's neck caught her eye. She stopped and stared. "It's *coming!*" howled the madwoman. "Batten the hatches! Weigh the anchors! Lower the--" "Elkins?" gasped Veronica. The woman stopped. She blinked twice. Her grip on Veronica's sleeve loosened. "Is that really you, Elkins?" Slowly, the woman let go of Veronica's sleeve. She raised her hand to her eyes, then turned quickly away. "I..." she muttered. "I...did go by that name. Once. A long time ago. But that was before...before...OH!" She cried. "It's *coming! * The Author! She is coming back to claim what is Hers! She will divide the Righteous from the Unrighteous, and the Faith-ful from the Subversive! She will--" "Elkins," said Veronica sternly. "I have been trying to *find* you. I did try to send you an owl, but it seems to have gone to Dicentra instead..." "Owl?" Elkins shook her head slowly. "Oh, no," she muttered. "No owls reach old Elkins these days. No, no, no. Elkins is unplottable, you see. Every bit as unplottable as OoP." She laughed shrilly. "Unplottable, yes! Yes! Unplottable! Or so they *said!*" "Elkins--" "I..." Elkins shook her head again. "No, no, listen, listen to me, don't listen to me, just listen. You really mustn't be out here like this, you know. Not now. Not these days. It's just not *safe* here anymore. There's a storm coming, you see. Such a storm. Such a big storm." Her head rolled on her neck, and an insane grin spread across her face. "A Perfect Storm," she whispered. Veronica shivered, then took a deep shaky breath. "Elkins," she said firmly. "I am not worried about the storm. The storm does not concern me. Because I know, you see, that Arthur Weasley really *was* under the Imperius Curse." "Arthur Weasley?" Elkins raised her head, something flickering in her eyes. "Imperius Curse?" "*Yes.* I've been trying to--" "There's..." Elkins swallowed hard. "There's quite a bit canon for that, you know. For Arthur Weasley. With Imperius Curse." "I *know.* I've been trying to talk to you about it. Where on earth have you *been?* What *happened* to you?" "I..." Elkins shuddered helplessly. "I've been having terrible dreams," she whispered. "Terrible, terrible. So terrible. I dreamt that it was two weeks from now, and Bloomsbury and Scholastic had both released the Order of the Phoenix simultaneously, as a 'Halloween Surprise.' And...and...and...and our membership soared to over a thousand, overnight. There were three hundred new messages being posted every *hour.* And nobody was snipping. And Yahoo kept crashing. And...and...and..." She took a deep breath, then burst into tears. "And none of the *FAQs* were done!" she wailed. She dropped to her knees and covered her face with her hands, rocking back and forth and sobbing uncontrollably. Veronica glanced down at the SYCOPHANTS badge pinned to Elkins' lapel. She sighed. "Yes, yes, yes," she said soothingly. "There, there. Pull yourself together, Elkins. We all knew that it had to happen sooner or later. We've known that for years. It had to happen sometime. No good worrying about it, right? What's coming will come, and..." "And we'll meet it when it does?" choked Elkins, sniffling. "Yes. That's right. So just...er, take deep breaths. Try to relax." Elkins nodded slowly. She took a few deep breaths, wiped her nose on her sleeve, and then hiccuped. Veronica shook her head. "Dicentra sent me this old post of yours about Arthur Weasley with Imperius," she explained, handing the scroll down to Elkins. "But I'm a bit confused by it. Some of the canon seems to be missing. Do you think that you could help me with it?" "Help you?" Elkins repeated numbly. "I...let me see." She took the scroll and unfurled it, her hands trembling. She squinted down at it. "Ah, yes," she said hoarsely. "Message 37121. Yes. Canonical evidence for the supposition that Arthur Weasley was a victim of the Imperius Curse during the war. Yes. Yes, yes, it's all coming back to me now." "Is it all there?" "Well, let's see now." Elkins reached up to straighten her bent and mangled spectacles. "Evidence that there really were genuine victims of the Imperius Curse. Yes, that's right. Mulciber was said to specialize in the Imperius. Both Hagrid and Sirius talk about the terror of not knowing who was really trustworthy back then. So it certainly does seem that there were real Imperius victims, as well as all of those DEs..." "Yes," said Veronica quietly. "And then we have Ludo Bagman's trial. That the DEs bothered to target Bagman suggests that younger ministry officials were often chosen as targets for persuasion or other forms of coopting..." "Yes." "And then there's all of this canonical suggestion that Arthur Weasley might hold a particular grudge against Lucius Malfoy. That could just be due to political differences, of course, as well as to lingering schoolboy rivalries. But it could also be because Lucius falsely claimed the same excuse to which Arthur had a truly legitimate claim." "Yes." "And then there's Crouch/Moody's DADA class..." "Oh, I really like that part!" Veronica interjected. "I love the symmetry (as you described it) of that scene. It says so much about Moody!Crouch that he brings attention to Neville in regards to Cruciatus (which for some reason is always Crustaceous in my head), and Harry in regards to AK. It just adds a nice parallel that if Arthur had been enslaved at some point by the Imperius that he call on Ron." Elkins blinked, then smiled. "That's always been my favorite part too," she admitted shyly. "It's the lynchpin of the entire theory, really." She glanced back down at the scroll in her hands. "And then there are those hints of a Weasley vulnerability to Imperius..." "It does make sense that some families might be more vulnerable to the Imperius curse," said Veronica. "After all children of alcoholics are more likely to be alcoholics. Perhaps there is a gene that some have that make them less able to fight off that curse. That would explain why Ron has a more difficult time with that curse in DADA class." "It could be," agreed Elkins. "Also, Ginny succumbed quite readily to Riddle's diary, which would seem to be a similar type of magic, don't you think? Mental domination. You really do have to be careful with this one, though," she warned, looking up owlishly from the scroll. "This one can get you into some trouble. A lot of people balk when it comes to this piece of canon, because they don't like the idea that such a weakness might be genetic, rather than a matter of pure personal willpower. They find that notion very thematically shaky. And many people also point out that none of the students in Harry's class has very much luck with the Imperius Curse..." "Yes, Susanne said that," said Veronica. "She provided this canon, from Chapter Fifteen: > Lavender Brown imitated a squirrel. Neville performed a series of > quite astonishing gymnastics he would certainly not have been > capable of in his normal state. Not one of them seemed to be > able to fight off the curse, and each of them recovered only when > Moody had removed it. "Susanne has a point," admitted Elkins. "Yes," said Veronica. "But Susanne *also* gave us this bit of canon, from the same chapter: > *************** > > and after the class > > *************** > > "Yeah, I know," said Ron, who was skipping on every > alternate step. He had had much more difficulty with the curse > than Harry, though Moody assured him the effects would wear off by > lunchtime. > *************** So while it's true that nobody other than Harry could resist the curse, Ron is still the only person that JKR specifies actually suffering from lingering after-effects *after* the class!" "Why, yes!" Elkins flashed a slightly startled smile. "Yes! Well done!" "But as for myself," Veronica continued thoughtfully. "I think Moody is the key to this whole theory. Why was it Arthur who had to help out Moody the morning the kids left for Hogwarts?" "An excellent question!" exclaimed Elkins, sitting up straighter. "And why is Molly so quick to rebuke the Twins for making fun of the paranoid old coot? In fact, I think that I talked about that somewhere in this post..." She looked down at the scroll in her hands, then frowned. She turned it over. She shook her head. "Now that's odd," she said. "I could have sworn that...OH! Oh yes, I see now. This is only the *short* version. That's why you couldn't find all the canon in it." "That's the *short* version?" "Yes. There's a longer one that I posted later on. One with more canon. And options on Missing Weasley Child and Seventh Son, as well. And even a Filicide!Arthur option, if you like that sort of thing." "I don't," said Veronica rather severely, frowning at Elkins' bloody featherboas. "I'm sure that I have it here somewhere..." Elkins fished about in her pockets, then pulled out an even thicker document. "Ah, yes. Here it is." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40168 "This one also adds Arthur's reluctance to expose himself to the Veela's charms at the QWC," explained Elkins, handing it up to Veronica. "And evidence of a Voldemort-related skeleton in the Weasley family closet. And--" "And Moody?" asked Veronica excitedly. "And Moody." "Moody and Arthur's relationship interests me," said Veronica. "It could just be that they are old friends, but my gut tells me there is something more here. Perhaps, as I think you suggested (forgive me if it was someone else), it was Moody that investigated his case. I personally don't see Moody doing much investigating; I think perhaps he "caught" Arthur, or the person doing the spell, and broke the spell. Still, I think Moody was involved in clearing his name, thus the deep respect on Arthur's part." "Hmmmm." Elkins thought about this for a moment. "Well, I do think that Moody was probably an investigator," she said. "Certainly Snape seems utterly unsurprised at the idea that Crouch/Moody might be searching his office. And when Crouch/Moody congratulates Harry and Hermione on having the right mindset to become Aurors, he's talking about investigative thinking, isn't he? Detective work." "But still," she added. "Even if you're right, even if all that Moody did was to bring Arthur in for questioning -- you know, *without* actually AKing the poor man or Crucio'ing him or using the Imperius to make him come quietly -- well, that in and of itself would have been enough to earn Arthur's gratitude, I should think. After all, we know how *some* Aurors were behaving themselves back in those days. So whether Moody actually investigated Arthur's case or helped to break the curse or merely apprehended him, it still works out." "True," said Veronica. "Of course," added Elkins. "This canon *is* the one that tends to bring all of those 'Arthur Weasley Was Himself Once An Auror' people out of the woodwork. I've never cared for that one myself, although its adherents are lovely people, and they do scout up some interesting canon. Still. Imperio'd!Arthur just makes more sense to me." "There's no reason he can't be both," pointed out Veronica. "He could have been an Auror *and* under the Imperius Curse." "Oh, I suppose so," said Elkins irritably. "I just don't *like* Auror!Arthur, that's all. It doesn't work for me at all on the grounds of characterization. But whatever. If you like Arthur as an Auror, then that's okay. De gustibus, and all that." "I have another piece of evidence for Imperio'd!Arthur, I think," offered Veronica shyly. "You do?" Elkins brightened. "What is it?" "Well," said Veronica. "Another idea, perhaps part of the reason Arthur never advanced far in the MOM, apart from his love of all things Muggle, is that he is still partly ashamed of what he might have done--even though he wasn't conscious of his actions." Elkins thought about this for a moment. Then, suddenly, she smiled. She rummaged through her pockets, pulled out a small canon, and laid it down on the sand with an ill-concealed air of triumph. "How's *that?*" she asked. The canon read: > "There is work to be done," he said. "Molly... am I right in > thinking that I can count on you and Arthur?" > > "Of course you can," said Mrs. Weasley. She was white to the > lips, but she looked resolute. "We know what Fudge is. It's Arthur's > fondness for Muggles that has held him back at the Ministry all > these years. Fudge thinks he lacks proper wizarding pride." "Now why is Molly so quick to leap to her husband's defense like that?" asked Elkins excitedly. "She sounds just a wee bit defensive there, don't you think? She's very keen to pin her husband's lack of promotion on his political beliefs, and on Fudge's. But why must she feel the need to say as much? And why bring it up right after Dumbledore has asked if he can *count on* them? And why is she white to the lips? What is she really responding to with this statement?" "She's responding to what she fears might be Dumbledore's implication that Arthur cannot be counted on because he was once under the Imperius Curse," answered Veronica promptly. "*And* to the unspoken implication that his lack of advancement in his job might be due to his unfortunate past, rather than to Fudge's political bias." "Yes!" "Imperius Curse," said Veronica simply. "Imperius Curse," agreed Elkins. They smiled at each other. "Oh!" Elkins jumped. "I nearly forgot! I have a new Imperio'd! Arthur canon as well." She reached into her pockets again. "Actually," she admitted, "I outright stole this one from Eileen Lucky_Kari. But since we're on this topic... Ah. Here it is." She pulled out another small canon, this one from PoA, and lay it on the sand beside the first. This one read: > "Forget it, Harry," said George bracingly. "Dad had to go out > to Azkaban one time, remember, Fred? And he said it was the worst > place he'd ever been, he came back all weak and shaking.... They > suck the happiness out of a place, dementors. Most of the prisoners > go mad in there." "Curious, isn't that?" asked Elkins. "Why does someone in Misuse of Muggle Artifacts visit Azkaban? That doesn't really seem part of his job description, does it? And George's phrasing is rather ambiguous as well. It's possible that he's just recounting something that their father once *told* them happened, rather than an actual memory. Did the Twins actually *see* their father come back all weak and shaking? Or is George just saying that Arthur *said* that he came back weak and shaking? Is George reminding Fred of an actual event, or of being told an anecdote? Could Arthur have altered the details slightly, so that he could tell the Twins about Azkaban without actually admitting that he'd ever been imprisoned?" "Why would Arthur want to tell his children about Azkaban at all?" asked Veronica. "If you had children like the Twins," answered Elkins grimly, fingering her PRATTLESNAKES badge. "Wouldn't *you* want to impress upon them the horrors of Azkaban?" "Well...maybe," conceded Veronica dubiously. "Maybe I would. But Arthur was acquitted, surely. So would he ever really have been guarded by dementors?" "Yes, quite likely he would have, because in the Penseive scene, Barty pleads with his father not to send him *back* to the dementors, even though he is not found guilty until the end of the scene. So it would seem that prisoners are held by the dementors even while awaiting trial. And that means that even though Arthur was eventually acquitted, he still could have spent some time in Azkaban, the poor man." "LAW CAMERA," murmured Veronica. "What?" "Lovable Arthur Weasley Controlled And Manipulated by Evil Riddle Anagram." Elkins' jaw dropped. "You *acronymed* Imperio'd!Arthur?" "Twice. I also came up with DARE DEVILS - Dear Arthur Ruthlessly Enslaved by Death Eater Villains to Instigate Lamentable Situations. It's all in the letter I sent you. The one you never *got.*" "Sorry," said Elkins. "Yeah. Um. Sorry about that. I was, er...I was..." She looked down at herself and winced. "Um," she said. "I'm really rather a mess, actually. Aren't I." "You are, rather," said Veronica, not unkindly. "But what I really wanted to know is: why does this theory not have a *vessel?* Why does it not have a *name?* Why couldn't I find it in any of the Alleys?" "Well, nobody ever really cared enough about this theory to turn it into a vessel. Usually poor old Imperio'd!Arthur just gets treated as a food item. Teacakes, you know. Crunchy canony goodness. A filling and nutritious breakfast. That sort of thing." "Well, what good is that?" demanded Veronica crossly. "I want to see this theory sailing out there in the Bay! Why isn't it?" "It's not my fault that no one ever made it into a ship! I couldn't do it *myself,* you know. It just isn't done. So I waited and waited for someone else to make it into a vessel. I hinted and I hinted. For months on end. But no one ever took the bait. Unless, that is..." Elkins looked away, blushing slightly. "I mean, unless...you know. If you...that is, only if you really wanted to, of course..." "I don't know how." "No?" Elkins blinked. "Oh," she said. "Well, you just need to pick a nautical metaphor to represent the theory. You need to literalize it, you know. Concretize it. Give it flesh. Sort of like Voldemort's rebirthing ritual. Except, er...less nasty, of course. Usually." She picked herself up off of the beach and started brushing the sand off of her knees. "So if you'll just give me time to work the terribly complicated and involved Literalysis ritual..." "Yes?" Elkins smiled slightly. "Actually, I was lying about it being complicated and involved," she said. "Look out in the Bay." Veronica turned and looked out to sea. Far out in the harbor, a large trimaran bobbed and lurched in the uncharacteristically choppy waters. "Why a trimaran?" she asked. "Oh, I don't know. Because a trimaran is a ship with three hulls? For those three Unforgivable curses in the DADA class? Symmetry? Although really, I'm not altogether sure whether three of something can technically be called symmetry. But..." Elkins sighed. "Yeah, okay. The trimaran's lame. Sorry. It was the best I could come up with. After all, you can't expect *miracles,* can you? Given that only two pages ago I was a gibbering lunatic, I think that I'm doing rather well, myself." "No, no," Veronica hastened to reassure her. "It looks fine, Elkins. Really. I'm very impressed." "You most certainly are," agreed Elkins grimly. "What?" Veronica blinked as Elkins advanced on her. "What?" she cried. "Ow! What are you..." "I'm *impressing* you. There." Elkins stepped back, tilted her head to one side, and then nodded. "Perfect. You make a lovely Captain." "What?" Veronica raised a hand to the hat that Elkins had just shoved onto her head. "I..." "The trimaran's yours, Captain. I bequeath it to you. Now, you'll want to remember to add those two new canons." Elkins gestured down to the two new canons lying on the beach. "And to tighten the screws on some of those old ones as well. Especially the Weasley Vulnerability To Mind Control. That's where you're weakest, you know, especially once the CRAB contingent comes out in force. You'll also want to--" "Wait! Hold up! I'm not sure that I *want* to--" "Too late. This *is* an Imperius Curse theory, after all. So its Captain really *has* to have been ushered into service against her will, don't you think? It's only proper." "But isn't this really your--" "Look," sighed Elkins. "I'm really not very good at Captaining, to tell you the truth. It just doesn't suit my persona. TBAY!Elkins is a mad subversive theorist with histrionic tendencies, not an authority figure. Whenever people try to make her into an authority figure, things get ugly. Trust me. You so totally do *not* want to go there." "But--" "The trimaran wound up rather larger than I intended, but I think that it will have to be, just to house all of those crewmembers that I just *know* you're going to be recruiting." "But--" "You'll do a great job. I just know it. Just don't forget to man the canons. And save me a stateroom, if you would. And a seat at the Captain's table. And listen...let the Filicide!Arthur and the Auror!Arthur and the Seventh Son people have their own quarters, okay? Even if you don't much like their versions of this theory, inclusivity is always a wise policy. Just look at how well it worked for the Good Ship LOLLIPOPS!" "I--" "I'll bet Richelle will do a great job of keeping her fellow FEATHERBOAS-wearing Filicide fans in line. She may be bloody-minded, but she's also compassionate. Watch out for the Big Bang Destroyer. Imperio'd!Arthur *is* pretty Bangy, but you still don't want to let yourself get tied too closely to the Destroyer, because then you'll have to worry about Cindy and her Big Paddle. Oh. And don't serve too much PIE." "Pie?" "PIE. Percy Is Evil. I absolutely adore Percy. So if I hear too much Evil!Percy talk coming from this ship, I'll be forced to come back and scuttle it. Understood?" "Um..." "Oh," said Elkins. "Right. And one last thing, Captain. I'd see to those lifeboats, if I were you. Just in case, you know. Just in case. Because there *is* a storm coming." "Yes," sighed Veronica. "So I've heard." ************************************** For further explanation of the acronyms and theories in this post, visit Hypothetic Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% 20Files/hypotheticalley.htm and Inish Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 *********************************** Elkins From skelkins at attbi.com Sun Oct 13 23:29:38 2002 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 23:29:38 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew Is Ever So Brave (was House assumptions) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45291 Ani wrote: > Likewise, if Peter were the token Slytherin or Hufflepuff, well > *grumble* Grumble indeed! I quite agree, Ani. Even leaving aside for the moment the fact that people are sorted at the tender age of eleven, and that life does have a way of wearing us down (especially in times of war), I think Peter's a pretty good Gryffindor, myself. The only one of the Sorting Hat's stated criteria that he does not fulfill is chivalry. Let's look at what the Sorting Hat has told us about those criteria, shall we? What are the characteristics of House Gryffindor? >From PS/SS: "brave at heart" "daring" "nerve" "chivalry" >From GoF: "bravest" Hmmm. Funny, isn't it? I don't see "integrity" anywhere on the list. Nor do I see a single mention of "pride," "stoicism," or "courage." I don't see "wisdom" either -- although I did see that mentioned as a Ravenclaw characteristic. I don't see "loyalty" -- that's Hufflepuff. Nor do I see any clause about "those who do not betray their friends to the enemy." Ironically enough, the closest thing to *that* criterion that the Hat has ever cited has been attributed to House Slytherin. So why all this dismay over the Sorting of Peter Pettigrew? Becky wrote: > Remember, *moral* bravery is not the same thing as *bravery.* No. It isn't. In fact, we don't generally call it "moral bravery" at all, do we? That phrase sounds quite strange and awkward to a native English speaker. It sounds all wrong. It sounds wrong because in idiomatic English, when we speak of moral bravery, we do not generally refer to it as "bravery" at all. Instead, we tend to refer to that quality as "moral *courage.*" There's a subtle but important connotative difference between the two words. "Bravery" implies *physical* courage. It is not often used to refer to moral or spiritual integrity. When we willingly risk physical harm, injury or death, for example, we call that "braving danger." But when we stand up for what is right, when we act on our sense of moral integrity, then we call it "having the *courage* of our convictions." Naturally, the two concepts are very strongy aligned. Still, I do find it interesting that the Hat should consistently choose to use the word "bravery" in its songs, while never once employing the term "courage." The Hat also stresses "daring" and "nerve," both of which similarly refer to a very specific -- and very physical -- form of courage. The conclusion that I reach from all this is that the particular type of courage that the Hat (and therefore, one assumes, Godric Gryffindor himself) most strongly values is the ability to face danger and to withstand pain. It is a conception of courage that seems perfectly in keeping with an eleventh century sword-wielding warrior mage. It is a warrior culture's conception of courage, and not necessarily one that coincides all that well with that of our own 20th century culture. Now we do, I think, tend to assume that moral courage is also quite important to House Gryffindor. There are indications that it is. The Gryffindor characters we see in canon themselves place a very high value on that sort of courage, and there are also a few characters (Hermione and Neville) whose allocation to House Gryffindor only seems explicable if we assume either that the Hat prioritizes values over proclivities, or that it is looking not only for physical bravery, but also for moral courage, the "courage of ones convictions," the willingness to stand up for what is right. It is the sort of courage that Dumbledore himself prioritizes. It is what he rewards Neville for, and it also lies at the heart of his "what is right vs. what is easy" speech. But is it a *primary* consideration of House Gryffindor, that sort of courage? Is it what the Hat itself prioritizes? It doesn't look to me as if it is. It looks to me as if moral integrity ranks somewhere down below "bravery," "daring," "nerve" and "chivalry." Peter's doing okay by those standards, I'd say. He's a middling good Gryff. He's not very chivalrous, true, but bravery? Daring? Nerve? He's got quite a bit of those, even if it is often masked by the fact that he has absolutely no *pride.* But then, "pride" has never been cited as a Gryffindor criterion either. ----------------- Ani wrote: > Courage comes in all forms, and while I well not try and argue that > Peter's been overly brave, I will point out (again) that he argued > (kind of ) with Voldemort's plan twice, and he was scared, but he > did it anyway, so he does have courage. Oh, I'll happily argue that Peter is brave! A moral coward, but physically brave. And with Nerve and Daring to spare, too. Brave? You want to know if Peter Pettigrew is brave? Well, okay. Let's just look at what he's *done,* shall we? --Animagus Adventures-- Barb already cited Peter's animagus adventures as proof of his bravery: > I also believe it took some bravery to learn to become an Animagus > in secret in order to accompany a werewolf. I agree. Even leaving the werewolf issue aside for the moment, it took a hell of a lot of nerve just to risk *trying* the animagus transformation, I'd say. In PoA, Lupin says: "'Your father and Sirius here were the cleverest students in the school, and lucky they were, because the Animagus transformation can go horribly wrong -- one reason the Ministry keeps a close watch on those attempting to do it. Peter needed all the help he could get from James and Sirius.'" I don't even what to *think* about what a "horribly gone wrong" animagus transformation might do to you, do you? Ugh. Scary. And while Sirius and James may have been brilliant students, they weren't actually *professors,* were they? They were teenaged boys who often did foolish things that thoughtlessly endangered the lives of others: the Prank, taking Werewolf!Lupin out for his midnight strolls. Peter himself was not a brilliant student. He was following their lead, even though he found the work difficult, and even though he knew that if they led him wrong, the results would likely be absolutely disastrous for him. Bravery? Daring? Nerve? Oh, yeah. Barb wrote: > If he failed and reverted to human form, he could have been killed > by Remus. Even if he knew that he wouldn't fail (it's possible that once you successfully become an animagus, it becomes so intrinsic to your very essence that you would never actually flub the transformation), it still took some guts, I'd say, to run around a forest in the middle of the night with a giant black dog, a werewolf who needs to be "controlled" by his larger animal friends, and a *stag,* sharp hooves and all, when you're stuck in the body of a little rat. I mean, forget about being eaten. I would have worried about getting *trampled!* I also would have worried about owls. Not to mention snakes. ::slightly twisted smile:: --Spying for Voldemort-- So then what does Brave Peter do? He spies on his friends for over a year, passing information from the inside on to Voldemort. Not very nice, no, but I'd say it certainly took *daring.* It certainly took *nerve.* Especially once it became clear that Sirius and James suspected someone. They knew that there was a traitor in their midst. That must have been pretty nerve- wracking, I'd imagine. What would have happened to him had he been caught out? I wouldn't have the nerve for that sort of work. Severus Snape did. So did Peter Pettigrew. --Snookering Sirius-- Let's see, what then? Well, he was left in a pretty tricky position after Voldemort's fall at Godric's Hollow, to be sure. He knew that Sirius was going to be coming after him; as far as he knew, the entire *Ministry* would be on his tail; and if Sirius is to be believed, then the other Death Eaters were likely to be gunning for him as well. So did he run and hide? Did he throw himself on Dumbledore's mercy? Did he go crawling to the Ministry to cut a deal, perhaps? Maybe hand over a few DE names in exchange for clemency, or for a reduced sentence? No. He didn't do any of those things. Instead, he quite ruthlessly and efficiently framed Sirius for his crimes and then faked his own death. That took nerve too. And daring. And a good deal of bravery, as well, because he chose a plan that necessitated him facing down Sirius in *person.* As it happened, he did succeed in pulling the timing off just right, but so many things could have gone wrong with that plan, most of them lethal. Pettigrew could have thought up a different plan, perhaps, one that didn't require him to stand there in the street face to face with an enraged Sirius Black. But he didn't bother to. That is because Peter Pettigrew is a *Gryffindor.* He is BRAVE! He LAUGHS in the face of danger! Ha HA! Oh, yeah, and he also severed his own finger. But that doesn't impress me all that much, honestly. After all, for all we know, he could have anaesthetized himself quite thoroughly beforehand. Unlike the *hand,* which I will get to later. --Biting Goyle-- Now we come to Pettigrew in the canon. By the time of canon, he does seem to have been a bit degraded, I'd say, by all of those years spent in rat form. As Scabbers, he primarily strikes me as profoundly depressed. (He does little but eat and sleep, and exhibits a fondness for chocolate). Still, he does bite Goyle on the hand on the train in PS/SS, which may not seem like much, but when you consider their relative sizes does show a certain amount of spunk, I'd say, especially since adolescent bully boys are really not known for their tenderness towards their enemies' pets. I wouldn't have wanted to mess with Goyle if I'd been Scabbers. Just think of how much bigger Goyle was! And how high off the ground (from a rat's perspective) he must have been, once Goyle started whipping him around, trying to get him to let go. Indeed, he ends up getting slammed into a window for all his pains, which even given JKR's tendency towards exaggeration when it comes to physical comedy involving battered animals (bouncing ferret, anyone?), still had to hurt. Brave? Well, yeah. --Waiting Game in PoA-- >From the very start of the third book, Pettigrew knows that Sirius has escaped from Azkaban. He knows that Sirius is probably coming after him. He *knows* this. So, does his nerve fail him? Does he flee Hogwarts? Does he scarper off to Albania to seek Voldemort's protection right away? No. He doesn't. He's scared to death, yes. He's literally sick with fear. And he has that darned *cat* to worry about as well, not to mention Remus Lupin, who would presumably recognize his rat form just as Sirius had, and who therefore cannot be permitted to spot him. Quite an unnerving situation for poor Peter to find himself in, don't you think? Why, it's enough to make any self-respecting coward head for the hills. Except that Pettigrew doesn't. He doesn't actually break and run until halfway through the school year, and then only when Sirius finally gets close enough to him that he feels that he has no other alternative. Up until then, he's playing a waiting game, hoping that Sirius will be caught. Did that waiting game take nerve? Did it take daring? I wouldn't have had the stomach for it myself. --Escape From Sirius and Lupin-- And then there's Shrieking Shack. Well...okay. Actually, Pettigrew really doesn't put up a very good showing at all in the Shack, does he? He couldn't even manage to stand up to Lupin's interrogation. He couldn't even hold to his story. He couldn't even lie *convincingly.* Instead he sweats, stammers, changes his story at least three times, and then collapses and sobs out a confession. It's just pathetic. No, there's no question that Pettigrew's nerve really failed him there in the Shack. It failed him badly. But hey. What can you do? These things do happen sometimes, you know, even to ordinarily Daring Gryffindors like Peter Pettigrew. But hey, what a comeback right afterwards though, eh? You want Bravery? You want Nerve? You want Daring? I've said this before, but it's still true. If I'd just had as close a squeak as Peter had there in the Shack, and then I was informed quite gravely that if I tried to transform, I *would* be killed, I would never have had the nerve to seize my opportunity like Pettigrew did the instant Lupin started to transform. I would have been far too cowed. No rational weighing of the options (Do you really *want* to go to Azkaban, Elkins? You know you won't last six months in there. So wouldn't it be better to take the gamble on the main chance *now?*) would have enabled me to act that swiftly or that decisively in a similar situation. That is because, sadly, I am *not* daring, nor am I brave; and I have very little in the way of nerve. Pettigrew is different. He is not only capable of taking gambles with his life; he can do so on the spur of the moment, instinctively, without hesitation. Bravery. Nerve. Daring. --Relations with Voldemort-- Ani wrote: > I will point out (again) that he argued (kind of ) with Voldemort's > plan twice, and he was scared, but he did it anyway, so he does > have courage. Just seeking out Voldemort in Albania took some nerve, I'd say. It was an act of desperation, true, but at the same time, Peter really had no idea how he'd be received, did he? The last time he dealt with Voldemort was, well, Godric's Hollow, probably. Sirius claims that the Death Eaters in Azkaban believe that Pettigrew lured Voldemort to his doom. For all Peter knows, Voldemort might believe precisely the same thing. As Scabbers, he likely heard enough of what happened in Ron's first year to know that if Voldemort ever balked from discarding his followers, he doesn't have that scruple anymore. Indeed, Peter seems fairly well-convinced throughout GoF that Voldemort is constantly on the verge of killing him. He seeks reassurance in the first chapter -- and fails to get it. He seems fully convinced after Crouch's escape that Voldemort really does plan to feed him to Nagini (although surely a moment's thought should have informed him that this must have been an idle threat!). Eileen has argued -- and I agree with her -- that in the moments right after Voldemort's re-birthing, Pettigrew believes that he has outlived his usefulness and is about to be killed. Yet even trapped in this dubious position, he is capable of asserting himself. He objects to Voldemort's plan to use Harry in the ritual at least twice, and from Voldemort's almost exasperated response in the first chapter of GoF, I got the impression that Peter had raised the subject even more often than that. He objects to the plan, he quibbles over its details, he questions its timing. Although he couches his objections in the careful phrasing of the sycophant, taking care to pepper them with all of the requisite "my Lord"s and "I must speak"s, he's really quite an argumentative little fellow in that first chapter. He may be a sycophant, but he's hardly a yes-man (which is precisely the reason, I believe, that Voldemort will later go to such pains in the graveyard to drive the inequitable nature of their relationship home to him; by delaying rewarding Pettigrew until Pettigrew has first publicly and formally stated that he deserves and is owed absolutely *nothing,* Voldemort hopes to eradicate Pettigrew's uppity notion that there might actually some quid pro quo involved in their relationship). Bravery? Nerve? Daring? Well, I guess that all depends on just how mad, irrational, or Cruciatus-happy you think that Voldemort really is in GoF. Pettigrew might be taking a considerable risk every time he argues yet another point, or he might not be. It's hard to say, really. I myself tend to think that he's not really taking all that great a risk by voicing his objections -- Voldemort needs him -- but all the same, Pettigrew himself seems to feel that he is. So I'm willing to give him a few Nerve and Daring points for that, I suppose. I would also hand him a couple of Nerve points for his almost indignant response to being slammed around right after Voldemort's rebirthing. Although he is in considerable pain, and likely believes that he is about to be killed, he still manages the self-assertion of that reproachful "you promised," which really does show a certain degree of chutzpah, I'd say. --The Hand-- Barb: > He may seem like a craven coward so far, but I think we've already > seen one instance of rather gruesome bravery that contradicts the > idea of cowardly Peter: his cutting off his own hand to give > Voldemort his body back. How many people would have the nerve to do > that? We might not agree with his motivations (helping the evilest > dark wizard there is) but it took a great deal of bravery > nonetheless. No, I do not believe Peter is lacking in bravery. > Scruples he certainly seems to lack (and whether he's redeemable in > that regard may yet be seen); bravery, hardly. Absolutely agreed! The man cuts off his own hand. Not only does he cut off his own hand, but he also does it *unsupervised.* He isn't being bullied into doing it in any immediate sense. There's no Voldemort standing over him, threatening to punish him if he doesn't go through with the ritual as arranged. No one is there to brow-beat him, or to urge him on, or to buck him up, or to give him any form of external encouragement whatsoever; he is completely on his own, and he is in no immediate danger should he change his mind and refuse to go through with it. In fact, the question of why he *didn't* just let Baby!Voldemort drown has come up before on this list. Yes. That took bravery. Physical courage. As well as one hell of a sharp blade... Melody: > Who as a side note when rereading the graveyard scene, wonders how > small Pettigrew had enough strength to cut through his forearm with > one swish of his dagger. Either that is a VERY sharp dagger or a > VERY fast, strong swish. Well, the dagger was being used as an important tool in an elaborate work of old Dark ritual magic, so while I'd ordinarily call this explanation a cop-out, in this case I think that it's eminently fair. It was a *magic* dagger. -------------------- Sherry wrote: > IMO, he does these things out of loyalty (to Voldemort), not > bravery. He's not loyal to Voldemort. If he'd been loyal to Voldemort, then he would have sought him out years before. When he finally does go looking for Voldemort, it only takes him a couple of *months* to locate him. He could have done so with equal facility any time after learning that Albania was the best place to start his search, which I'm guessing he's probably known for years. At the very latest, he learned it during Ron's second year. No, he's not loyal to Voldemort. He's not even loyal to himself in any deeper sense. Loyalty really isn't one of his virtues, IMO. > Voldemort accuses him of wavering, which causes him a great deal of > consternation precisely *because* his dominant trait is loyalty, > and he is now very willing to do anything necessary to redeem > himself in Voldemort's eyes. I think that it upsets him precisely because he knows that he is *not* loyal. He's a betrayer. He betrays his friends, he betrays his better judgement, he betrays his benefactors, he betrays his principles. He betrays himself. By the time the series is ended, he'll almost certainly have betrayed Voldemort as well. The accusation is true, and that, IMO, is precisely why it stings. Contrast his consternation at being accused of disloyalty, however, with his willingness in the Shrieking Shack to tell Sirius that he has never been *brave.* He shows so little consternation over that particular admission because he knows full well that it isn't completely accurate. He doesn't mind it much when Voldemort calls him a coward either. Accusations of cowardice just don't seem to bother him very much. They have no power to wound him. Accusations of disloyalty, on the other hand, really do seem to genuinely hurt him. I think that's because he knows that disloyalty truly is one of his moral failings. Ani wrote: > I just see the urge to put Peter in another house as plain > silliness. So do I. I think that he quite plainly belonged in House Gryffindor. Elkins From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sun Oct 13 23:42:22 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 23:42:22 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?The_Creepy_Dark_Lord_from_=91bania_(filk)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45292 The Creepy Dark Lord from `bania (To the tune of The Crazy Old Man from China, a song I learned in the second grade, but which is probably too politically incorrect and ethnically insensitive for today's youth) Dedicated to Gail B. THE SCENE. Knockturn Alley. Enter PETER PETTIGREW PETER Lord Voldy he told me to get him snake milk Oh gee I don' wanna I got him some milk and he sang me a filk The creepy Dark Lord from `bania The Dark Lord he told me he'll put me to use Oh gee I don' wanna So he put me to use cooking Harry P's goose The creepy Dark Lord from `bania The Dark Lord he told me to turn `roun' his chair Oh gee I don' wanna So I turn roun' his chair and a Muggle died there The creepy Dark Lord from `bania Lord Voldy he told me to give him a hand Oh gee I don' wanna So I gave him a hand and I saw him expand The creepy Dark Lord from `bania Lord Voldy he told me, bring Potter to him Oh gee I don' wanna I bought Potter to him and he gave me a limb The creepy Dark Lord from `bania Lord Voldy he told me, HP now unite Oh gee I don' wanna So HP I untie, and his wand raised him high The creepy Dark Lord from `bania Lord Voldy he told me, just wait'll Book Five Oh gee I don' wanna When he's in Book Five he will once more connive The creepy Dark Lord from `bania - CMC (who just can't resist making obvious puns about Pettigrew's hands) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From Malady579 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 14 00:03:37 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:03:37 -0000 Subject: Pre-MAGICAL DISHWASHER Plan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45293 Grey Wolf wrote: > We both live at the safe house, in theory bay (I in the garden, Pip in the house itself), so it's not as if you have to go very far to leave each copy...< Me: Well if that's the case then my owl Errol owl could of made it. I was a little concerned about his stamina. Grey Wolf continued: >>>...although I'm going to pick a few details with your own variation,...<<<< Me: I expected so much. Grey Wolf: >>>...I have quite liked it. It's not 100% compatible with my own view of MAGIC DISHWASHER, but it's perfectly all right, really.<<< Me: Really? I'm blushing. Thanks. But let me try and work this so we both can be happy...or at least work a truce for the best of the theory. Now your issues are with: 1)Harry is Voldemort's main target, i.e. focused goal at present 2)Flawed potion is the main focus of Dumbledore's offense from the time after VaporMort came into being As you summed up so nicely and quickly: (just for those that don't have the "up thread" buttom: the theory states that Dumbledore plan was tempting Voldemort out of Albania with the PS and Harry, and that the flawed potion idea didn't come up until that one failed) Now let's start with issue #1. Really this is two fold for you. On one hand, Dumbledore being the a good, protective and not sadistic war-leader would not knowingly place Harry into harms way. This is the issue many have in this group. I wonder if Dumbledore really thought Harry was ever in danger in PS/SS. True Dumbledore does come down after Harry into the Mirror room where he *says* he came to save Harry, but was Harry ever really in danger? Harry's given defenses, whether by blood or concocted, protected him quite well. He did not need a wand. I will say that TMTMNBN has blurred my memory of the canon, but basically the whole scene revolves around Voldemort as QuirrelMort getting to a place away from the rest of the students and WW. Harry, with coxing from Dumbledore, with invisibility cloak and mirror, and McGonagall, trying to ward him away from the third floor corridor (what 11 year old would just let it go after that), went after the *thief* because it was his duty in his mind. He knew too much and yet not enough to not avoid the mirror. Don't you find it odd that Dumbledore believed the owl that came for him and "went off" to London. He knows about Quirrell from Snape and knows Harry and Co. have figured out how to get past Fluffy. I even bet Dumbledore prodded Hagrid to whittle the wooden flute for Harry's Christmas present. Dumbledore knew that night was The Night QuirrelMort was going after the stone. He did not try to protect Harry and Co. from following. Because, and this is my point, Harry has to face Voldemort alone for some reason. Dumbledore knows this. Dumbledore uses this. Whether it is written in the stars or on a old manuscript, it seems very clear that Harry is the one that can defeat Voldemort. If Dumbledore could then he would of already. Gracious he knows where the guy is at all the time. Well maybe not in GoF, but Dumbledore keeps close tabs...very close tabs on Voldie. I think I might of gotten a little off track...hmmm...ok. Harry as Voldemort's main target. True, I don't think Voldemort is just after Harry for the sake of revenge. His reasons would be too shallow to risk *dying* again. Voldemort is just after Harry for the same reason he was in the first place. Voldemort does not seem to have the same sort of unforgetting temper Snape and Black. He cannot afford too. Voldemort, in a strange way, has more class than that. He could pass over Harry as a fluke and move on with little resistance if...Harry wasn't a threat. For some reason Voldemort fears our little Harry Potter. That is where y'all's theory come in. Voldemort still is unsure about Harry in the graveyard. Lulled by the Order of Phoenix's carefully placed information, Voldemort uses Harry for his potion. Hey and while the brat is there, let's see if Voldemort can kill him again. After all, the potion and supporters are still there. They could make up another body quickly and...so something with Harry. I know got a bit off track from MD, but I was musing. Now, I am fine with dropping Harry as main target bit. I really don't buy it that much anyway. My feeling is that Dumbledore places Harry in the picture becuase it is Harry that has had the greatest effect on Voldemort. As in sports, you put your best player on the field when you need him most. (I think I have watched too much football this weekend.) Now Point 2. What was it again....oh yes. Flawed potion is Dumbledore's main defense form the beginning. Thus also saying that they *knew* Voldemort can only be killed in his own body. I'll begin with part one. I am sure the potion has been on his mind. I see the Order sitting around throwing out ideas each knows. Snape suggests this potion. Flamel says hey I have this stone. Dumbledore likes the potion better since his friend does not have to die in the end. So, they focus on the potion for a few years. Leaking out just a little to make Voldemort believe he is not intended to know...am I getting this right Grey Wolf? Now, even with all this info coming his way, VaporMort is still in Albania. Maybe, and big maybe, they somehow push Quirrell towards Albania. I am NOT saying they manipulated him to the evil side, man it is so hard not to call it the dark side . They just gave the already Evil!Quirrell a push towards Albania putting the gears into motion. They leaked out that the stone was being put in the vault because Flamel was doing some remodeling...did not want the painters to play with it... Now, with Voldemort coming to London, much needed to be prepared. The stone was moved out of Flamel's care to the vault. Harry was coming of age at the time and was introduced to the whole WW. The stone was decided as bait by Dumbledore because it was the easiest method within tangible reach of Voldemort. Now, two things might happen. They capture Voldemort in the safe, this might just be hopeful, or Voldemort hangs around giving them time to arrange plan 2 - the mirror maze of obstacles. Both hopes relies on the Order capturing Voldemort somehow into a situation he cannot control. This could be so: a) Harry could defeat him, since they are not sure whether Voldie can be killed when occupying another body or not -or- b) They could force him into a cauldron and perform the needed potions to give Voldie back him body so then Harry could defeat him Now, my theory relies on the fact that they were not sure yet whether Voldie can or cannot be killed in another person's body, and that Harry is the only known one that can affect Voldemort. This is an important part of the plan and thus needs to be explored by them. If Voldemort can be killed in another's body then Flamel can stay alive, and Voldie can no longer be a threat, and all is good and fair in the land. I think that is why the whole Mirror room part was necessary. That distinction needed to be made. It has been said that no one else but Voldemort has explored the realms of immortality as far as he had. This makes him a special case that needed special precautions. My theory thus far lies on the fact that Harry is the one that must defeat Voldemort. That is what the Order is trying to make happen. But yes, immortality and a body for Voldie was the bait more than Harry. I agree. I am not sure whether or not the flawed-potion being the intent the whole time really matter which is what you hinted at in the beginning of your post Grey Wolf. I am sure over the ten years they had to think of all the possibilities. That was why they could works so smoothly over the last 3 years after Voldie resurfaced. They had back-up plans once they proved this one would not work. I hope I made myself more clear. I can get a little off track sometimes in my train of thought. Oh one last quote: > Grey Wolf, who would be very happy if Melody decided to join the MAGIC DISHWASHER org, with a honorary membership for adding a variation.< Me still blushing: Really? My own room in the theory house? Why I don't know what to say. Melody who is sorry for those at home for being so long winded lately. I find it amazing that I have spent my whole day trying to work this theory out. I think it still need a bit of ironing though. From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Mon Oct 14 00:08:43 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 01:08:43 +0100 Subject: Hogwarts Student Population In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021014004121.00978e10@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45294 At 21:44 13/10/02 +0000, marephraim wrote: >I'm not familiar with the British boarding school system to know >whether in such an institution there is only, say, one Math class >for a particular grade. Could Hogwarts not have multiple DADA or >Potions Classes for the first years? Harry shares Potions with the >Slytherins but there could be more than one Potions classes for >Gryffindor first years. Of course, it's not impossible for there to be more than one stream, but we also have classes shared with other Houses (two examples we have with numbers attached are the PS/SS flying lesson - 20 brooms for G&S - and the CoS Herbology lesson - 20 earmuffs for G&H). Simply from an organisational standpoint, it would make more sense to have all pupils from one House in the same lesson rather than split the lesson between two houses twice. I'm not sure if that was clear, but to put it another way, assuming there are, say, 20 second-year pupils in each of Gryffindor and Hyfflepuff, rather than have the 20 Herbology pupils made up of one set of 10 Gryffindors and 10 Hufflepuffs in one lesson and another 10 Gs and 10 Hs in another, it would have been easier to simply have all 20 Gryffindors in one class, and the 20 Hufflepuffs in another. The one piece of canon we have which is unequivocal about the number of boys in Harry's year is that each year, his dorm in the tower is "the [X] years' boys' dorm" implying that the five boys in Harry's dorm are all the Gryffindors for each year. Now, whether or not we're allowed to extrapolate figures from this is debatable, but any variations would be unlikely to be particularly huge. After all, after four years at Hogwarts, nobody, least of all the boys in Harry's dorm, have commented that there are very few of them compared to the other Houses/years. For instance, when I was at school, the year above mine had at least 50% more pupils than the average for the others, and this was an incessant source of comment. From pacific_k at hotmail.com Mon Oct 14 00:30:24 2002 From: pacific_k at hotmail.com (pacificlippert) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:30:24 -0000 Subject: House assumptions In-Reply-To: <011c01c272e9$a6b93fe0$eaa1cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45295 Peter the evil Gryffindor: > That's the point. Sirius *thought* he would be the loyal one, because he > was a Hufflepuff and Hufflepuffs are supposed to be loyal. But to who, hmm? > He has, of recent times, been loyal to Voldemort. One could say it was > fear, I suppose, but it takes a lot to make a person lliterally cut off > their own arm. And he did return to him of his own free will. A rat could > easily have hidden away again. It's a good argument, if we could assume that Sirius thought Peter was loyal--but Sirius tells us what he thought--he didn't pick Peter because he was loyal. Sirius says, (PoA, p. 369) "I thought it was the perfect plan... a bluff...Voldemort would be sure to come after me, would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like you..." Another argument for Peter having been in Gryffindor, and one I haven't seen yet, is that McGonagall speaks about Peter as if she knew him intimately-- "Hero-worshipped Black and Potter. Never quite in their league, talent-wise. I was often rather sharp with him. You can imagine how I--how I regret that now..." "Stupid boy...foolish boy...He was always hopeless at dueling." And, anyway, I still see Peter as brave. Not honorable, not moral, but certainly brave. Elkins covered the whole thing very well, and so I won't repeat, but I will say that I actually don't think Peter cowering around in the Shack was at the bottom all that cowardly, because I think that Peter was taking the chance that if he cowered and gibbered, his old friends, his old _protectors_ would balk at killing him. Peter knew them better than we do, and certainly during their years together they must have protected him--so it seems entirely possible that he was counting on their Gryffindor chivalry on several levels--they wouldn't kill an unarmed, pathetic man, right? They wouldn't kill him if it wasn't his fault, if James wouldn't have liked it...No, all in all, I'd have to say that even if (though) Peter isn't a very strong wizard, his brains were working quite well... The Patronus scene: > Consider this. Lupin has been spending a *lot* of his limited free time > training Harry to defend himself against the dementors. Harry's entire > purpose was to defend himself if the dementors came to another Quidditch > match. After all that, what's Lupin supposed to say? "Have a good time, > Harry, hope you lose." Not likely. Second, he was good friends with James > Potter. If James was on the Gryffindor Quidditch team and Remus was a > Ravenclaw, I don't think it's impossible that Remus could've been a bit > pleased when James won. It's a good argument if Lupin had said, "Well, good luck in your match," or "Good luck, Harry," or something similar, but he specifically wished not Harry, but _Gryffindor_ a victory against Ravenclaw, with enthusiasm-- "Let's drink to a Gryffindor victory against Ravenclaw! Not that I'm supposed to take sides, as a teacher..." he added hastily. Added hastily because he has clearly _taken_ Gryffindor's side, IMO. James and Sirius--like brothers: > For the third time, the fact that she remarked on their insperableness at > all WAS remarkable!!! Once again, no one finds it unique that Harry and Ron > are inseparable. Or Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle. They're *supposed* to be > inseparable because they're in the same house. Professor M. only asked Madame Rosemerta if _she_ remembered who James's best friend was. It was Madame Rosemerta and Professor Flitwick who remarked that they were always together. Professor M. never indicated that she found their friendship in any way remarkable. To me that whole scene seemed as if the friendship, like HRH's, wasn't remarkable at the time, and it was only in retrospect that they thought it odd--because, of course, Sirius, the person James trusted "more than any other" had betrayed him. So, even though I can see traits from all of the houses in each of the three we meet, I haven't yet seen anything that really indicates that they were in separate houses. Also, Peter as a Hufflepuff just seems like a left over choice, not one based on the houses as I've seen them. Karie From Malady579 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 14 01:15:28 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 01:15:28 -0000 Subject: Voldemorts plan (related to: Pre-MAGICAL DISHWASHER Plan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45296 Chris wrote: >>>>Voldemort has to hide for a few years at least. As he says, the aurors are searching for him and, as a ghost, he cannot defend himself. Therefore, he must remain hidden from view until the WW returns to being complacent.<<<< Me: I am torn between using two possibilities here...so I'll just name them both. 1) He is telling the truth and had another motive for staying hidden. Aurors on the prowl searching for him and him alone. Except, that Dumbledore knows where he is. If the goal was to find VaporMort then what stopped them from getting him once they found him. He doesn't really seem to be that hard to find really. A "wandering" Quirrell and a "bullied" rat found him. Both I think though were placed on the trail by "slipped" information. But yes, Voldemort did feel he needed to hide from aurors, even though they had not caught him before. Even if they did capture him ,I wonder what they would do to encapsulate VaporMort to "bring him to justice." It has already been said that the immortal Voldie cannot die. True he cannot defend himself, but if he cannot die, then what he afraid of exactly? 2) Following MD theory with Voldie lied or exaggerated a bit at the graveyard, Voldemort told the Death Eaters this lie to make them feel sorry that they did not seek him out. Their poor defenseless master needed them. Not that he needed justification to torture them, but it does give him a moment to frighten them a little. Fun to mess with people's minds. (slight evil grin there) He could also of said it in case the word got back to Dumbledore about thier soiree by the gravestones. Possibly through Harry. Possibly through a death eater gone good. Possibly just overheard in conversation. Either way, Voldemort said it to make Dumbledore feel that he had the upper hand before in the situation and that Voldie was defenseless when in vapor form. It kind of taunts Dumbledore by saying...if you only found me. It would be in Voldie's best interest also to convince the other side that he was vulnerable in vapor form if in fact he somehow is returned to such state. I do think you did have one part right. Voldemort was hiding far away from England, so that the wizard world would get complacent. If there is no seen threat, then all does relax a little. Then when Voldie comes back, the wizard world freaks out and blunder everything. It is harder for Dumbledore to work his plans if the basket is turned over. Melody From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Mon Oct 14 01:49:19 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 02:49:19 +0100 Subject: Catching up: MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021014014305.0096f100@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45297 At 10:49 13/10/02 +0000, Grey Wolf wrote: >The last attacks on MAGIC DISHWASHER seem to have based on the fact >that some of the listees believe that Dumbledore in it is no better >than Voldemort ("ruthless puppet-mastering", in words of Marina). This >couldn't be further from the truth. Dumbledore has *never* treated any >of his allies as pupets in MAGIC DISHWASHER, and I challange all those >who have been so free with the insults to find a single example. Two words for you: Cedric Diggory. There appears to be no indication whatsoever that he was aware of what he was letting himself in for. >They could >have let Sirius get kissed (and Buckbeak decapitated). On that same >book, Snape is sent to protect Harry in the SS in case things get out >of hand, but still Harry is trusted to act according to a moral sense, >instead of being forced into acting. This is one of my big problems. Just what is Snape's role in the SS meant to be? Lupin was there and was doing a magnificent job of keeping things under control until Snape arrives. Despite being one of the "old crowd" and clearly quite powerful in his own right, was Lupin not trustworthy enough not to manage to get things done according to the Master Plan without Snape's involvement? What was Snape's involvement *meant* to achieve, and what *did* it achieve which could not have been achieved by Lupin alone? Incidentally, although I've not looked into all the intricacies of M.D. (of whatever variant), I've read the earlier posts referred to before in the current discussion (though not the replies they generated). One thing that strikes me is that, whether consciously or not, the main function of M.D. appears to be to give Snape a more "honourable" function in the story to date than canon would imply at first glance. Whilst I absolutely agree that Snape is basically an honourable character, I disagree with some of the "white-washing" from which he *appears* to benefit under M.D. I get the impression that some people have difficulty with the position that he might want to want the best for Harry & Co and be prepared to save their lives, despite hating them. I see no inherent contradiction in that characterisation but I *do* have a problem with making Snape the hero of just about every scene in which he berates the Trio by giving him an ulterior good motive. ;-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who is reluctant to point out for Grey Wolf's edification that the English word is "iMmortality", not "iNmortality". errr... "hope that helps". :-) From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 14 02:14:23 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 02:14:23 -0000 Subject: Catching up: MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021014014305.0096f100@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45298 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: > At 10:49 13/10/02 +0000, Grey Wolf wrote: > > >The last attacks on MAGIC DISHWASHER seem to have based on the fact > >that some of the listees believe that Dumbledore in it is no better > >than Voldemort ("ruthless puppet-mastering", in words of Marina). This > >couldn't be further from the truth. Dumbledore has *never* treated any > >of his allies as pupets in MAGIC DISHWASHER, and I challange all those > >who have been so free with the insults to find a single example. > > Two words for you: Cedric Diggory. There appears to be no indication > whatsoever that he was aware of what he was letting himself in for. I'll throw in two more words: Sirius Black. Still a hunted fugitive, because Wormtail got away. And that doesn't even begin to take into account all the innocent bystanders who are going to get swatted by Voldemort in the years between his re-embodiments and the final confrontation with Harry. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From catlady at wicca.net Mon Oct 14 02:31:14 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 02:31:14 -0000 Subject: Center of HPverse/Transfiguring souls/Weasley specs/Beowolf/Radio TBAY/More Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45299 Fyre Wood wrote:' << Draco is clearly the center of the HP universe. >> Well, of course! Just ask him! Pip!Squeak wrote: << Snape, Harry, Dumbledore or *anyone* in the books don't KNOW they're in a book called 'Harry Potter and...'. >> Dumbledore knows it. Snape thinks *he's* in a book called 'Severus Snape and the ...." Veronica wrote: << Is there any evidence that a transformation is only a temporary change? If transfiguration is NOT temporary, do created animals have no soul? Do the soul's of transfigured animals remain captive in inanimate objects? Anyway, this is something I have wondered about, and I wondered if anyone else had considered it. >> I am not aware of ANY evidence that Transfiguration ISN'T permanent. Didn't McGonagall have to use another spell to change Draco back out of being a ferret? I think listies have merely SPECULATED that Transfiguration is temporary, as an attempt to explain why the Weasleys don't Transfigure autumn leaves into fashionable new clothing and so on. However, I get very confused when I wonder whether the Transfigured thingy's "real" nature remains hidden "inside" it, so that after even hundreds of year, Finite Incantatem will turn it back to its real self, even tho' the mage had no idea what its real self was ... or is turning it "back" just another Transfiguration? Did McGonagall use the same spell she would have used to change any natural ferret into Draco Malfoy? Back when I first read Book 1, I kept whining to my friend about Transfiguration changing things between animate and inanimate (teacups into rats, hedgehogs into pincushions). When turning a hedgehog into a pincushion, what happens to the hedgehog's life (possibly aka soul)? Is it destroyed? The wizarding folk are Tough, so it wouldn't bother them at all that their schoolkids are killing mass quantities of animals just for practise, but one'd think it'd bother some of the Muggle-born. When changing a teapot into a tortoise, where does the tortoise's life come from? Are the schoolkids creating a life? Isn't doing that by any means other than biological reproduction a bit god-like? This would apply even when the teapot had used to be a tortoise, if Transfiguring it into an inanimate object had killed it, taken its life away. My friend said that the animals created by Transfiguration from inanimate objects are automatons (someone said that about Diggory's dog) which have no souls, therefore are not really alive, unless the mage deliberately put part of his/her own soul into them to give them life. But apparently she thinks that the lifeless automaton has warm blood (for a rat, not a tortoise) and heartbeat and brain waves, and its mouth waters when it smells luscious food, all it lacks is creativity and procreativity. GulPlum wrote: << On the subject of glasses, something else which may or may not prove important is that Percy Weasley wears them (a change in the MTSNBN which I deplore; I understand that Chris Rankin is himself a "four-eyes"!) whilst nobody else in his family does. >> Arthur also wears glasses: CoS: ""He's back!" said George. "Dad's home!" They hurried through the garden and back into the house. Mr. Weasley was slumped in a kitchen chair with his glasses off". Eileen Lucky Kari wrote: << Well, naturally, there's a temptation to say Unferth gave Beowulf a faulty sword so that Beowulf would fail. And people have had a lot of fun saying it. But you have to remember that this is a text written in a time when that sort of plot twist wasn't employed. >> Why wasn't that sort of plot twist employed in stories, when that sort of treachery surely was used in real life? Pip!Squeak hosts a show: at Radio TBAY: This is a forbidden LOL Post! << But, *I* try NOT to smile. Filch is sobbing in a chair, and I am trying hard not to show him how funny I find it all. >> Snape was being considerate of FILCH's feelings because Snape and Filch are friends, or "friends" ... remember it was Flich who bandaged Snape's leg that had been bitten by Fluffy. He wouldn't have bothered to conceal his amusement at someone else's over-the-top display of grief. Richelle wrote: << Dumbledore said "Some of you in this Hall have already suffered directly at the hands of Lord Voldemort. Many of your families have been torn asunder." Now that "some of you have suffered" could go for anyone who was friends with Cedric. However, the "many of your families have been torn asunder" line is different. Who do we know who qualifies as having their family torn asunder by Voldemort? >> I suppose a family which had lost a member to JUSTIFIED imprisonment in Azkaban would also count as having been torn asunder. Christopher Nuttall wrote: << Certainly Peeves is very annoying, but no one seems to be able to get rid of him - or does he serve some useful purpose? >> I believe that Dumbledore could get rid of Peeves if he wanted to. Canon: Filch in CoS: "That vanishing cabinet was extremely valuable!" he was saying gleefully to Mrs. Norris. "We'll have Peeves out this time, my sweet -" Ben Jones wrote: << What motivates someone (Hufflepuff) to be loyal and diligent? I think they are motivated by reputation and want others to trust them. >> Nonsense. Hufflepuffs are motivated by an inner sense of duty and they want to like themselves. Sort of cut-rate Gryffindors. From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon Oct 14 03:13:22 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 22:13:22 -0500 Subject: Remember Cedric Message-ID: <009201c2732f$a9386de0$a39dcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45300 Okay, I need help. Can someone clear this up for me? This comes from Dumbledore's end of year speech to the students in GoF: "Remember Cedric. Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory." First of all, that sounds like the makings of a battle cry "Remember Cedric!" That note aside, what exactly is Dumbledore getting at here? Cedric did what was right (didn't he?), he knew Harry was there first, he wanted him to have the victory. By doing that (in addition to Harry's goodness wanting Cedric to win) he strayed across Voldemort's path and got himself killed. Whta would've been easy in his case? To take the cup alone? And then what would've happened? It just almost sounds like Dumbledore's telling them if you do what's right and get in Voldemort's way doing it you'll die. Is that a warning? I think I know what he's getting at, but it could be taken wrong. Can someone else share their interpretation? Richelle ******************************************************************************** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring ******************************************************************************** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 14 03:20:35 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 20:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Remember Cedric In-Reply-To: <009201c2732f$a9386de0$a39dcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <20021014032035.62859.qmail@web20005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45301 --- Richelle Votaw wrote: > Okay, I need help. Can someone clear this up for > me? This comes from Dumbledore's end of year speech > to the students in GoF: > > "Remember Cedric. Remember, if the time should come > when you have to make a choice between what is right > and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy > who was good, and kind, and brave, because he > strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort. Remember > Cedric Diggory." > > First of all, that sounds like the makings of a > battle cry "Remember Cedric!" That note aside, what > exactly is Dumbledore getting at here? Cedric did > what was right (didn't he?), he knew Harry was there > first, he wanted him to have the victory. By doing > that (in addition to Harry's goodness wanting Cedric > to win) he strayed across Voldemort's path and got > himself killed. Whta would've been easy in his > case? To take the cup alone? And then what would've > happened? It just almost sounds like Dumbledore's > telling them if you do what's right and get in > Voldemort's way doing it you'll die. Is that a > warning? I think I know what he's getting at, but > it could be taken wrong. Can someone else share > their interpretation? > > Richelle > I don't think he meant that Cedric took the "right and not easy" path. Well he did, but not for this particular circumstance. Cedric exemplified Hufflepuff and didn't do things the easy way. He told Harry about the egg. He saying that was Cedric's character, not applying it to this particular occasion. At least that's my take. Also he is saying remember that when you take the easy path (believing Voldie isn't back, perhaps?) you are betraying Cedric. You are doing other than he would have, you are condemning others to his fate. If they forget Cedric, they forget that Voldemort killed one of them. They forget just how much of a reason they have to stand up and fight. Oh well, that's my interpretation. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From saitaina at wizzards.net Mon Oct 14 03:48:29 2002 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 20:48:29 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Remember Cedric References: <009201c2732f$a9386de0$a39dcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <006001c27334$8fffe100$8e4e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 45302 Richelle wrote: I also read it that way. I think there's a flaw in the writing somewhere though I couldn't write it any better so I can't judge. Just seemed odd. Maybe it's just the way the words are arranged. Saitaina **** "Who would send you a dead owl?" Draco poked at the grey bird again. "That's Errol, and he's not dead. He's... resting." Dumbledore chuckled and clapped his hand on Harry's shoulder. "Be well, young Harry. I shall see you on the first of September." "I'll bring Malfoy's corpse with me," Harry returned. -"Draco Malfoy and the Heart of Slytherin", by Saber ShadowKitten [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Mon Oct 14 04:55:41 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:55:41 EDT Subject: Sirius's arrest Message-ID: <17d.1023aa2b.2adba84d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45303 kateydidnt2002 writes; >>If we take Madam rosemerta's statement that Black was caught on Nov. 1 as true then consider how things should have been different: First, Professor McGonagall certainly would have mentioned this the night of Nov. 1 in her questioning of Albus as to what the truth was surrounding what had happened. It wouldn't be something she didn't know about because it was a major catastrophe as described by Minister Fudge in PoA pg 208 [ch 10], the news of which would have spread just as fast as the news about Voldemort's disappearance.<< How could she have heard anything of the sort when she was sitting on the Dursley's wall all day? Unless Sirius was captured very early in the morning -- which we've NOT been told. No one seems to have made much of the point that Minerva had abandoned her post and played hooky all day to spy on the Dursleys. But she clearly had! Dumbledore would have heard of the matter by then, of course, having been in London for at least part of the day, (yet another reason for his claiming that Harry has no one but the Dursleys to turn to). He would have had his own reasons not to bring Minerva up to speed on this point. I'm not sure they concern us. Agree that the Sirius/Peter confrontation might just as easily have taken place the following day. It would be easy enough for a nonpartcipant like Rosemerta to have mentally conflated the two days. -JOdel From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Oct 14 05:41:43 2002 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 15:41:43 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Remember Cedric In-Reply-To: <009201c2732f$a9386de0$a39dcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <3DAAE5B7.27821.19C532C@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 45304 On 13 Oct 2002 at 22:13, Richelle Votaw wrote: > First of all, that sounds like the makings of a battle cry "Remember Cedric!" That > note aside, what exactly is Dumbledore getting at here? Cedric did what was right > (didn't he?), he knew Harry was there first, he wanted him to have the victory. By > doing that (in addition to Harry's goodness wanting Cedric to win) he strayed > across Voldemort's path and got himself killed. Whta would've been easy in his > case? To take the cup alone? And then what would've happened? It just almost > sounds like Dumbledore's telling them if you do what's right and get in > Voldemort's way doing it you'll die. Is that a warning? I think I know what he's > getting at, but it could be taken wrong. Can someone else share their > interpretation? Apologies if this is less than clear - the reasons will be obvious in a moment - I'm not entriely sure how straight I am thinking at the moment. To me, what Dumbledore is not saying that Cedric took the right path, and not the easy one - because, really, Cedric didn't take a path at all in the end - what happened to him happened not so much because he knowingly took a choice to face a risk, but because he wound up in the wrong place at the wrong time. What Dumbledore is saying, rather, is that at times, the people in the wizarding world may be forced to make a choice - to do what is right (and may be hard and painful) or to do what is easy in the short term. And when they are called on to make that choice, he wants them to remember Cedric because Cedric shows why the hard choice is the right choice. Yes, if you choose the hard choice, you may be risking pain and death and suffering. But the choice is worth it - because you are fighting evil. Dumbledore knows from past experience that standing up to Voldemort may well be fatal, and is dangerous - but it's also something that has to be done. Sometimes you have to face risk, sometimes you have to face death, because what you are fighting for is worth that risk, and is worth the cost. It's something most of us, thankfully, don't have to face in our lives. We're not put into the situation where we have to choose to put ourselves at risk to fight evil - but in the Harry Potter universe, this is a real and immediate choice - there is obvious evil to be faced, and to be fought. And how do we know its evil - we know its evil by its actions. And which action is going to be most real, and most immediate, to the kids at Hogwarts School - which one is closest to most of their lives (not all, by any means - both Harry and Neville have faced the loss of their parents). For many of the kids at Hogwarts, the fight against Voldemort is an abstract - a matter of history. Dumbledore is making it real for them - he's making it direct and personal. How better to illustrate to a group of children what evil is, and what evil they face, than to ask them to remember the vicious and totally senseless slaughter of one of their own. To me, today, this is very real. Three of my friends are missing in Bali - one is presumed to have been killed, as he is known to have been at one of the clubs and hasn't been seen since. Making it personal, does change things - I've seen terrorism before - I've never felt it the way I do now. Dumbledore knows his students may have to fight a war. He's trying to ensure that when they come to choose which side they are on, they *know* the evil of Voldemort and his followers. They know it, they feel it, and they remember it. In many ways, if Cedric had chosen to fight Voldemort, his death would be less tragic, less of a thing to be remembered. It would have been the death of a soldier in a sense - tragic, but with meaning in and of itself. Instead, it's the slaughter of a child, of an innocent. It's evil - pure and true. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From jodel at aol.com Mon Oct 14 05:44:42 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 01:44:42 EDT Subject: Hogwarts Student Population/Admittance to Hogwarts Message-ID: <184.1020ef5b.2adbb3ca@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45305 kateydidnt2002 writes, on which I suspect is an old and recurring thread; >>I believe that you are admitted to Hogwarts in the calender year in which you turn 11, meaning all students born in the year 1980 would start at Hogwarts in 1991. Therefore, Ron was born on March 1, 1980; Harry July 31, 1980; Hermione September 19, 1980. This is supported by the fact that GoF clearly indicates that Fred and George turned 17 in April of their sixth year (Scholastic, hardcover pg 189)meaning that they were born in April of 1978 and entered Hogwarts in 1989 because that is the calendar year in which they turned eleven.<< Then you intend to claim that Angelina Johnson is a 7th year in GoF? It has been strongly implied that she is the same year as the twins (6th). I suppose that if she is still at Hogwarts in OotP we will at least have a peg to hang future speculations of this order on. Because her birthday was the week before the end of October and she was able to put her name in the Goblet without needing to cheat. It is my understanding (possibly faulty) that most of the British schools demand that the child have actually reached the entry age before they will be permitted to attend the school. Which means that the child must be 11 by September 1st before they will be accepted into the first year. Ergo, schools "have their own fiscal year" system. And either Angelina Johnson was 17 for most of her 6th year at Hogwarts, or Gryffandor will be down a Chaser as well as a Keeper at the opening of Phoenix. If schools have their own fiscal year, then Hermione is one of the oldest of her year, having been born on 9-19-1979 rather than 1980. My own view of this is that it fits fairly well with the fact that she claims to have memorized all of her course books by the time she boarded the Hogwarts Express and has been practicing spells at home before officially entering school. If she got her Hogwarts letter around her birthday, it was already too late to start with the previous year's term but she had nearly a year to prepare for the following year. She hasn't ever claimed to have memorized the course books before beginning any of the years since, you will notice. Another point to bring up is that in her interview Rowling states that the Minerva sends out letters to all the children who are turning eleven in a given year, NOT all the children who will be at starting Hogwarts in that year. The two do not HAVE to completely overlap. For one thing, children who turn 11 after Sept 1, particularly Muggle-born children, will not have completed their primary schooling ahead of schedule just because their 11th birthdays are in that calandar year. We have been given no reason to believe that some Hogwarts students started their secondary education a year early due to Hogwarts being on a different schedule from the rest of the British school system. -JOdel From penny_rabey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 14 03:46:01 2002 From: penny_rabey at hotmail.com (pennyspace) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 03:46:01 -0000 Subject: House assumptions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45306 Barb said: Hagrid also would be unlikely to say to Harry, 'There's only one wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin, and he's the one responsible for your parents' murders.' Harry's just recently learned of the true nature of his parents' deaths. Hagrid has a low opinion of Slytherins. He's unlikely to qualify his statement at this time and unduly distress Harry. Just because Hagrid says something doesn't make it so. Hermione said there were only seven Animagi in the last 100 years, but she didn't know about the illegal ones. I doubt that Hagrid knows about EVERY dark wizard who's ever gone to Hogwarts and what house they were in. (The Ministry could have had it much easier during Voldemort's first reign of terror if all they had to do was look up former Slytherins and keep an eye on them.) Hagrid made a blanket statement that shows his prejudices as much as Malfoy's statements show his. Hagrid just happens to be more likable. It still doesn't mean that he knows what he's talking about. me: Hagrid's quote about Dark Wizards coming from Slytherin has been cropping up in this topic, but I feel this quote from CoS should also be considered. "Harry well remembered putting it on, exactly one year ago, and waiting, petrified, for its decision as it muttered aloud in his ear. For a few horrible seconds he feared that the hat was going to put him in Slytherin, the house which ahd turned out more dark witches and wizards than any other-" (chapter 5 The Whomping Willow pg. 61 aussie edition ) According to Harry, Slytherin has turned out *more* dark wizards, than any other, not *all* of them. I think this is a very important distinction, and allows that some dark wizards do come out of other houses, just not as many as Slytherin. Sirius could indeed be in Gryffindor and thought of as a dark wizard. I think it would be too simplistic, and easy, if all dark wizards came from one house. I believe one of the themes of the book is making choices, and creating who you are. This is my first post, so howdy :) PennyR From robgonz0 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 14 04:04:34 2002 From: robgonz0 at yahoo.com (Robert Gonzalez) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 23:04:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Remember Cedric References: <009201c2732f$a9386de0$a39dcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <001b01c27336$cf16c780$18fea8c0@WorkGroup> No: HPFGUIDX 45307 I think what Dubledore is saying is that when the time comes that one needs to make a choice between doing the easy thing, (go along with the crowd, stick your head in the sand, whatever) or the right thing (stand up to Voldemort) that one needs to remember Cedric Diggory. A boy who was "good and kind and brave", a boy who did nothing wrong but "stray across the path of Lord Voldemort". In other words that by supporting, ignoring or hiding from Voldemort one is supporting somone who killed (since he is addressing Hogwarts students) an innocent boy who you all knew. Rob ----- Original Message ----- From: Richelle Votaw Okay, I need help. Can someone clear this up for me? This comes from Dumbledore's end of year speech to the students in GoF: "Remember Cedric. Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srae1971 at iglou.com Mon Oct 14 06:34:05 2002 From: srae1971 at iglou.com (Shannon) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 02:34:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Remember Cedric In-Reply-To: <009201c2732f$a9386de0$a39dcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021014021952.00b7ce30@mail.iglou.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45308 At 10:13 PM 10/13/2002 -0500, Richelle wrote: >Okay, I need help. Can someone clear this up for me? This comes from >Dumbledore's end of year speech to the students in GoF: > >"Remember Cedric. Remember, if the time should come when you have to make >a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to >a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the >path of Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory." > >First of all, that sounds like the makings of a battle cry "Remember >Cedric!" That note aside, what exactly is Dumbledore getting at >here? Cedric did what was right (didn't he?), he knew Harry was there >first, he wanted him to have the victory. By doing that (in addition to >Harry's goodness wanting Cedric to win) he strayed across Voldemort's path >and got himself killed. Whta would've been easy in his case? To take the >cup alone? And then what would've happened? It just almost sounds like >Dumbledore's telling them if you do what's right and get in Voldemort's >way doing it you'll die. Is that a warning? I think I know what he's >getting at, but it could be taken wrong. Can someone else share their >interpretation? My interpretation of that speech was not so much that he was saying that Cedric took the right path rather than the easy one. After all, he didn't. He didn't know that he was going to end up in Voldemort's sights, after all (though I personally think had he known he'd have done the same thing). I think what he meant was that when the time comes for them to make the choice between which side to choose, they should remember exactly what they are going into, or what they are considering supporting. Cedric was a student that most everyone loved and admired. He died because he was in the way. He wants them to remember that the person they are considering siding with is someone for whom killing an innocent boy is as inconsequential as swatting at a fly. For some students these will be hard choices. They'll be afraid, and some of them will be facing pressure from family and friends to choose Voldemort's side. It would be easy to cave in to that pressure, or give in to that fear. Voldemort's casual murder of Cedric is really the essence of why he is so hated and feared. Dumbledore wants them to realize that and make their decisions accordingly. I think that his speech about Cedric is one of the most beautifully written parts of the books so far. She spent the whole book making Cedric someone we like and respect, and then uses his death to make us truly grasp Voldemort's evil. Hopefully with that speech, the students will grasp it too. Shannon >Richelle > >******************************************************************************** >"May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." >---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring >******************************************************************************** > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > >Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! >http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > >Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material >from posts to which you're replying! > >Is your message... >An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to >HPFGU-Announcements. >Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. >Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. >None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. >Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- >mods at hpfgu.org.uk > >Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com >____________________________________________________________ > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Mon Oct 14 07:54:21 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (non)TBAY: Arthur Weasley With Imperius Curse and Small Craft Advisories Message-ID: <20021014075421.43083.qmail@web40309.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45309 Elkins, in her lovely TBAY post, said: <<<"It does make sense that some families might be more vulnerable to the Imperius curse," said Veronica. "After all children of alcoholics are more likely to be alcoholics. Perhaps there is a gene that some have that make them less able to fight off that curse. That would explain why Ron has a more difficult time with that curse in DADA class." "It could be," agreed Elkins. "Also, Ginny succumbed quite readily to Riddle's diary, which would seem to be a similar type of magic, don't you think? Mental domination. You really do have to be careful with this one, though," she warned, looking up owlishly from the scroll. "This one can get you into some trouble. A lot of people balk when it comes to this piece of canon, because they don't like the idea that such a weakness might be genetic, rather than a matter of pure personal willpower. They find that notion very thematically shaky. And many people also point out that none of the students in Harry's class has very much luck with the Imperius Curse..." "...So while it's true that nobody other than Harry could resist the curse, Ron is still the only person that JKR specifies actually suffering from lingering after-effects *after* the class!">>> Me: Here's one thought I had about this...what if Arthur was under Imperius *before* Ron and Ginny were born and that *bits of Imperio magic* were passed along, not so much genetically as it were, but *magically*? Then it wouldn't be a matter of genetics like with alcoholics. The CRAB contingent would maybe allow that as an explanation, because it all boils down to Malfoy Sr. as the cause, and not a weakness in character or genetics. It would explain why Ron has trouble with it in DADA and Ginny seemed to succumb to the diary fairly quickly. We don't know from canon if any of the other children are susceptible to Imperius, but I suspect that Imperio!Arthur happened *after* Fred and George were born. OOOHHH, one more thought...is this why Lucius picked Ginny in particular? Because he knew that she would be susceptible because he put Arthur under Imperio 15-or-so years ago? Things that make you go hmmmmm... <<<"Hmmmm." Elkins thought about this for a moment. "Well, I do think that Moody was probably an investigator," she said. "Certainly Snape seems utterly unsurprised at the idea that Crouch/Moody might be searching his office. And when Crouch/Moody congratulates Harry and Hermione on having the right mindset to become Aurors, he's talking about investigative thinking, isn't he? Detective work.">>> Me: Could this also be the reason why Moody *does not* tell Ron he would make a good Auror? Because it's difficult for Ron to even overcome the after effects of the Imperius? Because Moody helped his father way back when with his Imperius episode (which might have been pretty bad to be passed along magically to his two youngest children), so he knows Ron's going to have residual Imperius? Of course, this is only if the "passed along magically" thought holds water (fitting for TBAY). I think Veronica and Elkins have a pretty water-tight vessel floating now. However, I do like the 7th Son theory, so I hope your trimaran does have a cabin so I can visit there. That is, if I ever brave the waters of theory bay. ~Lilac, who is standing on the shores of TBAY with her two friends Nicole and Gail, all three of us donning our CONNIVING CHICK'S REVENGE life-jackets (Lilac adds her FAT CHANCE AT BALL water wings for extra measure), trying to figure out where to go... ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Mon Oct 14 11:49:12 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:49:12 -0000 Subject: Catching up: MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021014014305.0096f100@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45310 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: > At 10:49 13/10/02 +0000, Grey Wolf wrote: > > >The last attacks on MAGIC DISHWASHER seem to have based on the fact > >that some of the listees believe that Dumbledore in it is no better > >than Voldemort ("ruthless puppet-mastering", in words of Marina). > >This couldn't be further from the truth. Dumbledore has *never* > >treated any of his allies as pupets in MAGIC DISHWASHER, and I > >challange all those who have been so free with the insults to find a > >single example. > > Two words for you: Cedric Diggory. There appears to be no indication > whatsoever that he was aware of what he was letting himself in for. Nor did Dumbledore! I must have made this same point in every other post by now: Dumbledore didn't know about the Portkey!Cup twist. He probably knew that Voldemort would give a try at the tasks in PS, and allowed Harry to choose whether to go for it or not. He knew about the CoS, possibly the nature of the beast too (it's pretty obvious, after all), but doesn't know about the diary or the entrances to the chamber (and CoS isn't part of MD anyway). He engineers all the SS in PoA. But the mastermind after the events in GoF is Voldemort, through Crouch!Moody. I have always mantained that no-one wanted Cedric to go: not Dumbledore (if he had known what was about to happen), not Crouch!Moody (interesting puzzle: what would Crouch's actions be if Cedric had taken the oportunity to win on his own?). Marina added: > I'll throw in two more words: Sirius Black. Still a hunted > fugitive, because Wormtail got away. Sirius accepts that. Dumbledore has a little chat with him, in which I expect many things got explained. The thing he dislikes most of his circunstance, I think, is not being able to take Harry with him, but that would've been impossible anyway, since Harry is taken to the Dursleys for protection. Notice that, at no point (except, as with Snape, when shaking hands with him) does Sirius express any sort of disconfort about his circunstance. He understands the necessity of it, and accepts his place in the plans. There are, in fact, ways for Sirius to gain liberty: Harry would be pleased to declare that he has seen Peter alive and well, but for Sirius is better to be "disapeared" for the time being - and to not have made public his animagus form. Since he never raises the question, he must understand and accept the necessity for it, and probably even he himself suggested it, since it's the best for his own and Harry's safety. > And that doesn't even begin to take into account all the innocent > bystanders who are going to get swatted by Voldemort in the years > between his re-embodiments and the final confrontation with Harry. > > Marina You cannot blame Dumbledore for the actions of Voldemort, anymore than you could blame anyone else. That phrase right there I read it as "Dumbledore is dark because Voldemort likes to kill people". Let's say that Dumbledore hadn't proded Voldemort into using the potion: 200 years from then, Voldemort finds another way of resurrecting (by rediscovering the PS, for example), makes a come back when no-one even remembers him anymore, and this time he is truly immortal. What would be the result? That you could say bye bye to the entire muggle population, and to anyone else who dared opose Immortal!Voldemort. Not a pleasing perspective. But anyway, you cannot say that Dumbledore is evil because he has been forced to fight evil. He's not even using unforgivables, like the MoM. > This is one of my big problems. Just what is Snape's role in the SS > meant to be? Lupin was there and was doing a magnificent job of > keeping things under control until Snape arrives. Despite being one > of the "old crowd" and clearly quite powerful in his own right, was > Lupin not trustworthy enough not to manage to get things done > according to the Master Plan without Snape's involvement? What was > Snape's involvement *meant* to achieve, and what *did* it achieve > which could not have been achieved by Lupin alone? Didn't Luipin prove beyond all doubt in that scene that he's not to be trusted? He seems a little forgetful, to me (and he's my fav character... a big surprise, ain't it? ;-) ). No, Snape was there for another reason: Peter musn't suspect that he's been allowed to escape, or Voldemort could hear about it. It *has* to look like Peter escapes on his own, and it has to seem that no-one notices him or even knows that he's still alive. By introducing Snape into the scene, Dumbledore overrules any possible declaration of Werewolf!Lupin and Convicted!Sirius, in case either were forced to declare (Dumbledore won't even force them to lie, but he's perfectly capable of using his enemie's weapons against them: in this case, the WW's prejudices). > Incidentally, although I've not looked into all the intricacies of > M.D. (of whatever variant), I've read the earlier posts referred to > before in the current discussion (though not the replies they > generated). One thing that strikes me is that, whether consciously or > not, the main function of M.D. appears to be to give Snape a more > "honourable" function in the story to date than canon would imply at > first glance. Whilst I absolutely agree that Snape is basically an > honourable character, I disagree with some of the "white-washing" > from which he *appears* to benefit under M.D. I get the impression > that some people have difficulty with the position that he might > want to want the best for Harry & Co and be prepared to save their > lives, despite hating them. I see no inherent contradiction in that > characterisation but I *do* have a problem with making Snape the hero > of just about every scene in which he berates the Trio by giving him > an ulterior good motive. ;-) You know, I had never nboticed that fact. I can't stand the guy, myself. I can asure you that it was never my intention to make him look "good" or "white-whased". He's just someone who knows clearly his duties, and the reason he has to do them: he owes Dumbledore his life, and is paying back. He might not have any moral code worthy of that name, but he knows what his duties are, and will act acocrding to them. At any rate, I hope you realize that by saying that you don't like MD because you don't like our canon-based (by you own words) characterisation of Snape you are indulging in meta-thinking, so there is nothing I can do to change your mind. > -- > GulPlum AKA Richard, who is reluctant to point out for Grey Wolf's > edification that the English word is "iMmortality", not > "iNmortality". errr... "hope that helps". :-) Yes, yes, I'm sorry. I've been told before, but in my own language "m" can only go before vowels, "p" and "b". Any other letters get an "n". It's very difficult to change after so many years and remember that it is not so. I'll work on it, though. Thanks, and don't be afraid to correct frequent mistakes: after all, I'm writing in an alien language. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 14 13:34:46 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:34:46 -0000 Subject: Catching up: MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45311 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: > Marina added: > > I'll throw in two more words: Sirius Black. Still a hunted > > fugitive, because Wormtail got away. > > Sirius accepts that. Dumbledore has a little chat with him, in which I > expect many things got explained. The thing he dislikes most of his > circunstance, I think, is not being able to take Harry with him, but > that would've been impossible anyway, since Harry is taken to the > Dursleys for protection. Notice that, at no point (except, as with > Snape, when shaking hands with him) does Sirius express any sort of > disconfort about his circunstance. He understands the necessity of it, > and accepts his place in the plans. He may accept it after the fact (what choice does he have, anyway?), but no one consulted him before the fact. > > And that doesn't even begin to take into account all the innocent > > bystanders who are going to get swatted by Voldemort in the years > > between his re-embodiments and the final confrontation with Harry. > > > > Marina > > You cannot blame Dumbledore for the actions of Voldemort, anymore than > you could blame anyone else. I sure as heck can, if Dumbledore deliberately engineers Voldemort's return while knowing perfectly well it will be years before the final confrontation. Even if we accept the idea that Voldemort can never be defeated unless he is re-embodied by one, and only one, specific method (and there is no solid canonical support for such an assumption), there was still no need to let Wormtail escape on PoA. Wormtail is not the only servant available to Voldemort. There are plenty of "Death Eaters who walked free" still hanging around, and according to DISHWASHER's own claim, Voldemort has been in touch Lucius Malfoy since at least as far back as the summer before CoS. And here's another thought -- having arranged for Wormtail's escape, Dumbledore must know that Voldemort will want to try for the potion as soon as possible, which means that Voldemort will be redoubling his efforts to go after Harry. If the re-embodiment is not to happen too soon, security around Harry must be tighter than ever before. So, knowing this urgent need for heightened security, what does Dumbledore do? He holds a Triwizard Tournament, filling Hogwarts with hundreds of strangers, including an entire Durmstrang delegation of Dark Arts students headed by a known Death Eater. Real tactical genius at work there. > You know, I had never nboticed that fact. I can't stand the guy, > myself. I can asure you that it was never my intention to make him look > "good" or "white-whased". He's just someone who knows clearly his > duties, and the reason he has to do them: he owes Dumbledore his life, > and is paying back. He might not have any moral code worthy of that > name, but he knows what his duties are, and will act acocrding to them. > > At any rate, I hope you realize that by saying that you don't like MD > because you don't like our canon-based (by you own words) > characterisation of Snape you are indulging in meta-thinking, so there > is nothing I can do to change your mind. The characterization of Snape as a man who knows his duty is in no way unique to MAGIC DISHWASHER, nor is it in any way incompatible with the face-value reading of the final chapters of PoA. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From annahemmant at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 14 11:20:07 2002 From: annahemmant at yahoo.co.uk (Anna Hemmant) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:20:07 -0000 Subject: (non)TBAY: Arthur Weasley With Imperius Curse and Small Craft Advisories In-Reply-To: <20021014075421.43083.qmail@web40309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45312 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Lilac wrote: > > Elkins, in her lovely TBAY post, said: > > <<<"It does make sense that some families might be more vulnerable to > the Imperius curse," said Veronica. "After all children of alcoholics > are more likely to be alcoholics. Perhaps there is a gene that some > have that make them less able to fight off that curse. That would > explain why Ron has a more difficult time with that curse in DADA > class." > > "It could be," agreed Elkins. "Also, Ginny succumbed quite readily > to Riddle's diary, which would seem to be a similar type of magic, > don't you think? Mental domination. You really do have to be > careful with this one, though," she warned, looking up owlishly from > the scroll. "This one can get you into some trouble. A lot of > people balk when it comes to this piece of canon, because they don't > like the idea that such a weakness might be genetic, rather than a > matter of pure personal willpower. They find that notion very > thematically shaky. And many people also point out that none of the > students in Harry's class has very much luck with the Imperius > Curse..." Hello! Can I pleade just say that JKR seriously puts a lot of emphasis on the fact that it not what we are born, but what we chose to become that shapes us. Therefore, any explaination in terms of inheritance couldn't be countenanced. However, perhaps you might be onto something in the magical inheritance thing, but what could the the cruciatus curse or the AK curse have similar effects? Would these have to run in the same way as inheritance? i.e. would neville have some kind of traces of the crucio in his blood despite the fact that it's administered to his parents after he's born? Would this add to the sociological reasons for his fear of this specific curse, or am I just talking a load of brown round things? From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Oct 14 15:03:46 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 15:03:46 -0000 Subject: Another DISHWASHER thought Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45313 If this is a war of spies, and one in which Harry Potter is being groomed to play a major role (not meta-thinking as there is plenty of canon evidence that Dumbledore is preparing him) it seems very odd that Harry is being taught to *hate* spies: Snape, Myrtle, Pettigrew, Mrs. Norris. And Harry's own attempts at spying are unproductive (CoS) or misleading (the Snape/Quirrell and Quirrel/Voldemort conversations in PS/SS and spotting Crouch in GoF) or double-edged (he learns about the dragons by following Hagrid in GoF, but so does Mme Maxime). In PoA, spying is shown to be completely counterproductive, from Harry's point of view, since if Lupin had never gone out to the Shack, Snape wouldn't have followed him and Pettigrew wouldn't have escaped. Dumbledore is not doing anything to counteract these impressions. Instead, Harry is learning that spying is done by horrible people, that it is very difficult to get good information and of limited advantage even when the information is useful. Knowing that Voldemort was after them didn't save the Potters. Also, I am unclear as to why Dumbledore should dread Voldemort in spirit form so much. Malevolent spirits are nothing unusual in the Potterverse. One wonders why the Bloody Baron or some other ghost has not made himself ruler of the magical world if live wizards are so ready to follow a disembodied leader as Magic Dishwasher would have us believe. Pippin From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Oct 14 15:51:10 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 15:51:10 -0000 Subject: The fight against tyranny: the central theme of HP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45314 All the posts concerning possible themes of HP, really got me to thinking-what is the central theme? The one from which all themes seem to begin. I have a theory on this issue and I wish to post it- to see what other members think. My theory is this: the central theme of the HP series is the fight against tyranny. This could also be termed learning to think for yourself. Let's consider the following: what distinguished the witches/wizards who were killed by Voldemort and those that were not? IMO, it was there unwillingness to go along with his scheme. Those who capitulated on some level were spared. Why were certain witches/wizards targeted? It can be argued that there is something in particular regarding the Potters- Jame and Harry-something that singled them out. But what about the others? the non-Potters, as it were? We know Voldemort killed others? IMO, they too represented some kind of threat to his scheme. Was it merely because they resisted? Could be. Dumbledore has spent a lot of time on the issue of choice with Harry- without giving him a complete explanation for why Voldemort wanted him dead. IMO, Dumbledore is trying to get Harry strong enough mentally and spiritually to deal with this knowledge- it must be something pretty powerful. Still, IMO, all this preparation is necessary to combat tyranny- to give the best possible weapon to Harry he can possess- not magical abilities, although I do believe they will be utilized- but a strong and resiliant spirit-which he has already demonstrated. IMO, when Harry thinks for himself, he has an incredible weapon- one that Voldemort with all of his power, has a hard time overcoming. bugaloo37 From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 14 16:47:58 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:47:58 -0000 Subject: Preventing the Unexpected (WAS: Catching up: MAGIC DISHWASHER) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45315 Grey Wolf wrote: > Dumbledore has *never* treated any of his allies as puppets in > MAGIC DISHWASHER, and I challenge all those who have been so free > with the insults to find a single example. GulPlum took up Grey Wolf's challenge by responding: > Two words for you: Cedric Diggory. There appears to be no > indication whatsoever that he was aware of what he was letting > himself in for. and Grey Wolf replied: > Nor did Dumbledore! now me: I have no doubt that Dumbledore never intended for Cedric to die (but then again, I had no doubt that Scabbers was anything but a rat until the end of PoA...). Assuming I'm right this time, though, what troubles me is why Dumbledore would allow the third task to proceed at *night* within a *20 foot high hedge*, where no one could see what was going on inside and prevent horrible things from happening. Especially since Dumbledore was "reading the signs" regarding Voldemort's attempts to regain power. (I also wonder about the point of having everyone sitting in the stands surrounding the maze when they couldn't see what was going on inside it...) ~Phyllis From gandharvika at hotmail.com Mon Oct 14 17:36:06 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:36:06 +0000 Subject: [HP4Grownups]Low Self Esteem (FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45316 Low Self Esteem (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Self Esteem_ by the Offspring) Dedicated to Fyre Wood, whose sympathetic affection towards Neville will ultimately draw her away from Lord Voldemort's thrall and set her onto the path of righteousness. Listen to a bit of it here: http://offspring.bnet.pl/dysko.htm Neville: I just melted my third cauldron today Know what's coming, wish I could run away Snape came over He went bezerk Two weeks detention, that nasty jerk Doesn't want to hear an excuse That Professor really likes to abuse Shouldn't let him do this to me But I do 'cause I've got low self esteem Potions class is always a fright I try and try but it's still not quite right With Snape yelling, it doesn't help One day I'm gonna stick up for myself When he's saying all those bad things to me It's no wonder that I'm such a big mess When he's screaming and causing a scene Then how can I work under all of this stress? Well one day I should say how I feel But then I start to loose all my nerve The more he bullies The more it seems I mess things up....Right! Now there's something I want to mention Last time Snape gave me a detention Was a really cruel episode Had to disembowel a whole barrel of toads When I know that Snape is around I feel close to a nervous breakdown I should talk back when he's acting so mean But I'm just a screw-up with low self esteem When he's saying all those bad things to me It's no wonder that I'm such a big mess When he's screaming and causing a scene Then how can I work under all of this stress? Well one day I should say how I feel But then I start to loose all my nerve The more he bullies The more it seems I mess things up....Right! -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From karnasaur at yahoo.com Mon Oct 14 16:45:50 2002 From: karnasaur at yahoo.com (Kristjan Arnason) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 09:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: House Assumptions In-Reply-To: <1034598234.11349.85192.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021014164550.34905.qmail@web10410.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45317 Well, aren't I proud of myself! My first post, completely wrong, has produced a decent thread! Well, daring that lightniong strike twice, one of the responces included this: Sophie wrote: >Though the Hat is very biased towards >Slytherin, being Gryffindor's hat and all And it had his sword inside it. But isn't it possible, even probable, that each of the four founders placed an object inside it, which a true member of the house could draw fourth if needed? How else would the hat know each House? Just a thought. Greatly enjoying the damage I have wrought. (Shame that I can't talk about the results of sorting my elementary school students into Hogswart Houses, that being off-topic and all.) Take care, Kris __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Mon Oct 14 17:37:20 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:37:20 -0000 Subject: Catching up: MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45318 I said: > > Sirius accepts that. Dumbledore has a little chat with him, in > > which I expect many things got explained. The thing he dislikes > > most of his circunstance, I think, is not being able to take Harry > > with him, but that would've been impossible anyway, since Harry is > > taken to the Dursleys for protection. Notice that, at no point > > (except, as with Snape, when shaking hands with him) does Sirius > > express any sort of disconfort about his circunstance. He > >understands the necessity of it, and accepts his place in the plans. Marina answered: > He may accept it after the fact (what choice does he have, anyway?), > but no one consulted him before the fact. Before that, Sirius was a suspected murderer. I don't think Dumbledore was all that sure of Sirius inocence before the SS (why else would he agree to the dementors, and directed the various mobilizations of teachers during PoA?). Dumbledore will not respect his enemies's rights, since that sort of action tends to loose wars (and I supose now you'll tell me that Dumbledore is Evil because he doesn't give Voldemort's right to freedom). I said: > > You cannot blame Dumbledore for the actions of Voldemort, anymore > > than you could blame anyone else. Marina wrote: > I sure as heck can, if Dumbledore deliberately engineers Voldemort's > return while knowing perfectly well it will be years before the final > confrontation. Even if we accept the idea that Voldemort can never > be defeated unless he is re-embodied by one, and only one, specific > method (and there is no solid canonical support for such an > assumption), there was still no need to let Wormtail escape on PoA. > Wormtail is not the only servant available to Voldemort. There are > plenty of "Death Eaters who walked free" still hanging around, and > according to DISHWASHER's own claim, Voldemort has been in touch > Lucius Malfoy since at least as far back as the summer before CoS. You seem to believe that Dumbledore is omnipotent, Marina, which is obviously not the case. Of course, if Dumbledore was omnipoitent, you could blame him for things over which he has no control, but, as I say, you cannot blame him for the actions of his enemies. Let me run this through yet another time: Voldemort *will* come back, sooner or later. Because he is *immortal* while in Vapour form. From the point of view of eternity, sooner or later, he would come back. And sincerely, it doesn't even look such a especially difficult thing to do. If Harry were more protected, then Voldemort would only have to use any other wizard, get the flesh of any other servant and find the ashes of his father - or even of his mother, or grandparents, or even Salazar's, for all we know and, voil?!, he's back when no-one expects him or even remembers him. So, Dumbledore prefers to control the situation as far as possible, by pushing Voldemort in the right direction. He cannot pretend to control the timing of Voldemort, but he manages to make Voldemort do what is best for Dumbledore. For which, he needs Harry and a servant with, hopefully, a life debt to Harry. So, the SS Scene is engineered to put both possible followers of Voldemort in a position were Harry could save their worthless lives. And he does, out of free will, too, I have to point out - as always, Harry didn't *have* to get involved (although it could be argued that *Sirius* forced Harry into action by taking Ron. I supose *that's* Dumbledore's fault too, isn't it?). We don't know when was Dumbledore planning to let Harry donate blood for Voldemort's potion. My guess is that as late as possible in Harry's training, but no matter, since Voldemort wins the next round and *his* plans overule whatever Dumbledore could have planned. > And here's another thought -- having arranged for Wormtail's escape, > Dumbledore must know that Voldemort will want to try for the potion > as soon as possible, which means that Voldemort will be redoubling > his efforts to go after Harry. If the re-embodiment is not to happen > too soon, security around Harry must be tighter than ever before. > So, knowing this urgent need for heightened security, what does > Dumbledore do? He holds a Triwizard Tournament, filling Hogwarts > with hundreds of strangers, including an entire Durmstrang delegation > of Dark Arts students headed by a known Death Eater. Real tactical > genius at work there. You forget to mention that he gets the best Auror ever to watch over Harry and the rest of the people involved. Pitty Voldemort is faster and substitutes that Auror by one of his own men, but nevermind. I'm sure that if the real Moody had been there, he would've been able to discover any other inseider that Voldemort could've put in. And Dumbledore (and I, too) believes that it is more important to look for allies than any breach in security - and that is the real reason behind the TWT: to create ties between wizards and witches of the three nationalities. Marina one last time: > The characterization of Snape as a man who knows his duty is in no > way unique to MAGIC DISHWASHER, nor is it in any way incompatible > with the face-value reading of the final chapters of PoA. > > Marina Your point is...? I said those things about Snape because Richard had said that he didn't like that characterization of Snape. I neither claimed that characterization as my own, nor as exclusive of MD, nor said that it was incompatible with other theories. I only said that, if his reason for disliking MD was based on that fact, there was nothing I would do to try to change his mind. Pippin wrote: > If this is a war of spies, and one in which Harry Potter is being > groomed to play a major role (not meta-thinking as there is > plenty of canon evidence that Dumbledore is preparing him) it > seems very odd that Harry is being taught to *hate* spies: > Snape, Myrtle, Pettigrew, Mrs. Norris. It seems odd in MD because...? It looks odd to meta-thinking eyes: you must be thinking "Umm, if JKR is doing a book like this LeCarre, she would make spies the heros". That is not like it in RL: Dumbledore might not like spies either, but he knows they are necessary. I don't like homework, or work in general, but I know it's necessary. Dumbledore knows that, to finish Voldemort, he'll have to know things about him: hs plans, his weakness(es), his position, etc. Since writting him a letter isn't going to work, he needs spies. To believe that that should make the spies the heros, or that Harry would come to respect them, is meta-thinking. And I do not occupy myself in that sort of arguments. > And Harry's own attempts at spying are unproductive (CoS) I have to point out (totally outside of MD) that learning that one's ideas are wrong isn't bad: we learn more from mistakes than from lucky guesses. Besides, Ron learns about the secret stash of the Malfoy Manor, so it wasn't a totally lost situation. > In PoA, spying is shown to be completely counterproductive, > from Harry's point of view, since if Lupin had never gone out to > the Shack, Snape wouldn't have followed him and Pettigrew > wouldn't have escaped. Re-read MD's first post (30662): they wanted Peter to escape. > Knowing that Voldemort was after them didn't save the Potters. No, knowing that Voldemort was after them could've saved them, IF they had also known who was the traitor. > Also, I am unclear as to why Dumbledore should dread > Voldemort in spirit form so much. Malevolent spirits are nothing > unusual in the Potterverse. One wonders why the Bloody Baron > or some other ghost has not made himself ruler of the magical > world if live wizards are so ready to follow a disembodied leader > as Magic Dishwasher would have us believe. > > Pippin No ghost can resurrect. And I covered the danger of Vapour!Voldemort in both my previous post (45279) and in this one (as well as probably a dozen others). I repeat enough as it is, so I'm not going to go through it again. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From potter76 at libero.it Mon Oct 14 17:35:30 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:35:30 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House assumptions References: <011c01c272e9$a6b93fe0$eaa1cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: <3DAB0062.000001.49977@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 45319 becky: Another problem I have. I *can't* see Peter as a Hufflepuff. Loyal, diligent? And I can't see him as being a loyal follower of LV who wormed his way in either. It mentions in canon that he'd been passing information to for a year before James and Lily were killed (PoA, The Servant of Lord Voldemort), which is a long time for a spy, but not long enough that I would think he really *was* being a "loyal Hufflepuff." Not to mention he isn't loyal to LV either. Richelle: That's the point. Sirius *thought* he would be the loyal one, because he was a Hufflepuff and Hufflepuffs are supposed to be loyal. But to who, hmm? [cut] Me: I've seen this argument about Wormtail's 'loyalty' that would qualiffy him as a Hufflepuff and a Secret Keeper coming up again and again and I'd like to remember people somenthing. It's stated clearly in PoA that Peter was suggested by Sirius as the most *unlikely* Secret Keeper, one that no one would ever think of being good enough to be one, and then never discover, while him (Sirius) was quite obvious, so much that he hoped LV would come to him first and so have a chance in trying to fight and defeat him. ( i'm very sorry but I'm in a hurry and can't look up the quotation in the book). so loyalty has to do nothing with it and I would think that as it was not a trait that his friends saw in him I'm inclined to believe that even the Sorting Hat would have not seen it. And now something different: I'd like to say that Eloise's post ( which I'm not going to quote because it was too long and there was not a single word I could have taken out without spoiling' it) about LV new body and his immortality explains my thoughts on the matter much better than I could have ever tried to do ( and actually did a couple of times without much success). So thanks for saving me the pain of failing to explain myself again! R. From cindysphynx at comcast.net Mon Oct 14 18:11:47 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 18:11:47 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Operative!Arthur Meets Imperius!Arthur (WAS TBAY: Arthur Weasley With In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45320 Cindy apparated to the deck of the Imperius!Arthur Trimaran and stood admiring Veronica's sparkling vessel. The polished wooden deck gleamed in the sunlight and the place smelled vaguely of fresh varnish. Dozens of new deck chairs were arranged in straight rows, each chair with its own cupholder and footrest. A steel drum band pounded a soothing rhythm somewhere in the distance as shirtless cabin boys carried trays of tea cakes, waiting for the first guests to arrive. "Nice vessel you got here, Veronica," Cindy said. "Isn't it *great!* " Veronica said breathlessly. "Elkins just gave it to me. I mean, she's been working on it for months, and she just up and *gave* it to me. Isn't she *amazing?*" "Oh, she's amazing, all right. No doubt about that. But there's something you have to know here, Veronica. TBAY!Elkins is, uh --" Cindy's voice broke, her mind suddenly filled with images of happier times on the Fourth Man Kayak. "Elkins is . . . well . . . she's completely *crazy,* Veronica! Barking mad, nutters, insane, all of it! She did *way* too much subversion at parties in her youth, if you want my opinion. It's really quite a shame. She used to be the Great-Yet-Always-Accommodating Captain of the Fourth Man Hovercraft. She used to defile the FLIRTIAC dinghy under cover of darkness. She used to stage grand Symposiums and hold inspiring if somewhat poorly attended anti-SYCOPHANT defamation rallies." Cindy sighed heavily. "Elkins was good, all right. A little too good. And insanity is the ugly stepsister of genius, as they say." "I've never heard anyone say?-" "Oh, take my word for it, Veronica. Anyway, these days Elkins has taken to roaming the beach pushing a shopping cart full of half- baked theories, hawking them to newcomers who don't know any better. Don't be taken in by her canon snacks, Veronica. Believe me, you'll be sorry." "I don't care," Veronica said defiantly. "Elkins gave me a theory and a vessel, and I already have two snappy acronyms. I -? I'm happy with that. I am. I really am." "Oh, are you now?" Cindy asked, raising an eyebrow. "Well, I have just one question, just a little one. You, uh, want to explain to me how this Imperius!Arthur theory *Bangs,* Veronica?" Veronica froze, her eyes wide. There was an awkward silence. "That's right, Veronica. It doesn't Bang. Not at all. The thing is completely *mute,* in fact. It doesn't make a sound. So Arthur was put under the Imperius Curse. So? He was arrested long ago and cleared. So? Where is the future Bang there? What does Imperius! Arthur have to do with the coming war with Voldemort?" Cindy sighed. "It's not your fault, Veronica. Really, it isn't." She lowered her voice conspiratorially. "Between you and me, Elkins has a certain flair for dead languages, but she never really puts her heart into Banging." Veronica's shoulders slumped. "You mean I have to scuttle the Trimaran?" she asked glumly. "Not if I can help it. There is another theory to explain all of Elkins' Arthur canons. It's better in a lot of ways. It Bangs, for one thing. And it focuses on the upcoming battle instead of the past. Let me explain. And if you like it, it's all yours." Cindy eased herself into one of Veronica's deck chairs, which groaned audibly under her weight. She gestured Veronica into a nearby chair. "I'm not buying Imperius!Arthur," Cindy began. "No, not me. I would like to propose Operative!Arthur. Arthur Weasley was not some weakling underling MoM bureaucrat during Voldemort's rein of terror, controlled like a puppet on a string. No way. Arthur Weasley was an Unspeakable in the Department of Mysteries! He was pivotal in the fight against Voldemort." "What?" cried Veronica. Her face hardened. "Oh, you're making that *up.* There's no canon at all for that ridiculous notion." "Oh, think again, my friend, think again," Cindy said. "Elkins has thoughtfully provided all the canon I need. "First of all, it is quite clear that Arthur is far more than a guy who goes around dealing with Muggle artifacts. Let's look at 'The Parting of the Ways.' Dumbledore fails in his effort to persuade Fudge that Voldemort has returned. The minute Fudge leaves, what is the very first thing Dumbledore does? Above all else, he wants to get in touch with Arthur: *********** "There is work to be done," he said. "Molly . . . am I right in thinking that I can count on you *and Arthur*?" "Of course you can," said Mrs. Weasley. She was white to the lips, but she looked resolute. "We know what Fudge is. It's Arthur's fondness for Muggles that has held him back at the Ministry all these years. Fudge thinks he lacks proper wizarding pride." "Then I need to send a message to Arthur," said Dumbledore. "All those that we can persuade of the truth must be notified immediately, and he is well placed to contact those at the Ministry who are not as shortsighted as Cornelius." *********** "So?" asked Veronica. "Oh, this passage is very important. Now, if Arthur was just some guy who dealt with enchanted muggle tea sets, why would Dumbledore be so very interested in contacting Arthur? Geez, if Arthur had proven vulnerable to the Imperius Curse years before, Arthur would be the *last* person Dumbledore would want spreading the word about Voldemort, don't you think? Dumbledore wouldn't go out of his way to line up a *weakling* to do an important job like round up people at MoM, would he? "Heck, look at Dumbledore's dialogue again. Molly starts blathering on about how Arthur isn't rewarded for his work at the Ministry. But Dumbledore doesn't even appear to have been *listening.* Dumbledore's statement about needing to send a message to Arthur isn't responsive to Molly's statement at all, is it?" "I ?- I never noticed that before," Veronica admitted. "And Arthur is supposed to be this low-level bureaucrat who doesn't even make enough money to keep his children in proper robes and wands, right? So why would Dumbledore think Arthur could contact 'those at the Ministry who are not as shortsighted as Cornelius' and could do so 'discreetly,'" Cindy asked. "What better way to arouse suspicion than to have this low-level guy suddenly start creeping around the halls of MoM informing others who would be well-positioned to organize for the war." "I don't know," Veronica said doubtfully. "Hey, the books are *filled* with clues that Arthur is way more than he appears to be. The man has a *flying car,* for heaven's sake! And he seems to be awfully well-connected at the Ministry. He can get prime QWC tickets, for his whole family, no less. He is allowed to have Harry over the summers, Dumbledore's protection notwithstanding. He is believed to be up to the job of protecting Harry on his trips to King's Cross when Sirius Black is on the loose. He has a 'useful contact' at the Ministry who 'fixed it' to get the Dursleys' fireplace connected to the floo network." "Maybe he's just popular," Veronica said thoughtfully. "Maybe, maybe. But it just doesn't add up somehow. Arthur is supposed to be a specialist in Muggle Artifacts ?- you know, straightening out problems Muggles get themselves into when magic goes awry, right? Well, let's look at "Back to the Burrow" at that whole Ton Tongue Toffee episode: ************* "No, really!" said Mr. Weasley desperately. "It's a simple process -? it was the toffee -? my son Fred -? real practical joker -? but it's only an Engorgement Charm ?- at least, I think it is -? please, I can correct it ?-" ***************** "Did you see that," Cindy asked. "Mr. Weasley is supposed to be this expert at sorting out enchanted Muggle objects, and he's not even sure he has an *Engorgement Charm* on his hands there. But he proves awfully good at *blasting* things in that scene, doesn't he? He blasts the Dursleys' fireplace without hesitation. And he is a crack shot, too ?- he blasts an ornament right out of Vernon's hand. "Not only that," Cindy continued, "Arthur knows a great deal about the Sirius Black situation, doesn't he? Molly isn't even sure that Black is after Harry; Rosemerta doesn't know about Black's betrayal of the Potters. "But Arthur? Arthur knows *everything,* doesn't he? He knows the whole story -? that Black is after Harry, that Fudge is trying to keep things quiet, even what Fudge heard Black mutter in his sleep. Why on earth is Arthur so darn chummy with the *Minister of Magic*, anyway? 'I've tried to tell Fudge, but he insists on treating Harry like a child', Arthur says. What? Since when does the Muggle Artifact guy bend the ear of the Minister of Magic like that? And since when does a low-level employee -? someone who has supposedly been shunted off to the Muggle Artifacts department ?- countermand the Minister of Magic and tell Harry about Black. "And then there's Arthur's reluctance to expose himself to the Veela's charms -?" Cindy went on. Veronica leaned forward in her chair. "Oh, but Elkins has that angle covered. She said Arthur's reluctance to expose himself to the Veela's charms at the QWC shows his vulnerability to the Imperius Curse. " "What!?" Cindy cried. "Where is the canon link between Imperius and Veelas? That's a bit of a leap there, don't you think? No, better is the idea that Arthur used to be an Unspeakable. He knows all sorts of sensitive information. He doesn't want to risk losing control because he's not sure what state secrets he might blurt out, right there in the Top Box. As we can see when the men encounter the Veela in the forest later, men will say *anything* to gain favor with a Veela. Arthur was just being smart to avoid that risk there. "Not only that, there's that curious visit Arthur paid to Azkaban: ********* "Forget it, Harry," said George bracingly. "Dad had to go out to Azkaban one time, remember, Fred? And he said it was the worst place he'd ever been, he came back all weak and shaking.... They suck the happiness out of a place, dementors. Most of the prisoners go mad in there." *********** "Wait!" Veronica implored. "Elkins has a point there. Why does someone in Misuse of Muggle Artifacts visit Azkaban? He must have been imprisoned in Azkaban but was released when it was learned that he had been under the Imperius Curse --" "Hold on," Cindy broke in. "Arthur didn't go to Azkaban as a prisoner. Heck, if he's so darn weak and susceptible to the Imperius Curse, he would have gone mad himself, don't you think? As it was, he was just "weak and shaking." And there's a reason for that. Arthur visited Azkaban as an *Unspeakable.* Probably doing undercover work posing as a prisoner, listening to what prisoners mumbled in their sleep, or maybe just interrogating prisoners there." "Well, maybe," Veronica allowed. "And then there's the real clincher. Arthur doesn't even *talk* like a Muggle Artifacts guy, really. For instance, what do you make of Arthur's Big Warning: 'Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it keeps its brain.' Why would a Muggle Artifacts guy even *say* a thing like that? "Arthur seems to lapse into behaving like an Operative at times because old habits die hard. Arthur is a veritable gold mine of information about things related to Dark Wizards. He knows how the Dark Mark is conjured and used. He knows Winky wouldn't know how to conjure it (although this seems to escape Amos Diggory). He leads the charge after the dark wizards who are tormenting the muggles after the QWC. Hardly the actions of a guy who spends all day pulling sugar tongs off of the noses of muggles, eh?" "Well, I dunno," Veronica said. "You make some good points, but I have two really cool acronyms for Imperius!Arthur: LAW CAMERA ["Lovable Arthur Weasley Controlled And Manipulated by Evil Riddle Anagram"] and DARE DEVILS [Dear Arthur Ruthlessly Enslaved by Death Eater Villains to Instigate Lamentable Situations]" "So it's like that, is it?" Cindy said quietly. "I spin this *huge* theory for Operative!Arthur, just for you, and all you can think about is some snazzy acronym? Well, two can play at this game. In the past, I submitted all of my acronym requests to Tabouli. Well, Tabouli's not here to save my bacon this time, so I will just have to do my own dirty work." Cindy cleared her throat significantly. I submit: "CLOAKANDDAGGERARTHUR [Covert Liaison Operative Arthur is the Key to Assured Non-violent Destruction of Diabolical Axis, with Global Governance and Equilibrium at Risk, from the Ascension of Ruthless Terrorists with Homicidal, Unspeakable Resolve]." Veronica sat perfectly still, her mouth slightly open. "I -? I didn't know you could acronym. Where . . . what . . . how did you come up with that?" Cindy shrugged. "Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do." She hauled herself out of her deck chair. "And Veronica? If you decide to stick with Operative!Arthur, you'll have to give some thought to the best kind of snacks to serve on your vessel. Everything associated with Unspeakables has this weird tendency to disappear." ************ Cindy *********** For further explanation of the acronyms and theories in this post, visit Hypothetic Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% 20Files/hypotheticalley.htm and Inish Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 14 18:33:41 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 18:33:41 -0000 Subject: Catching up: MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45321 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Grey Wolf" wrote: > I said: > > > Sirius accepts that. Dumbledore has a little chat with him, in > > > which I expect many things got explained. The thing he dislikes > > > most of his circunstance, I think, is not being able to take Harry > > > with him, but that would've been impossible anyway, since Harry is > > > taken to the Dursleys for protection. Notice that, at no point > > > (except, as with Snape, when shaking hands with him) does Sirius > > > express any sort of disconfort about his circunstance. He > > >understands the necessity of it, and accepts his place in the plans. > > Marina answered: > > He may accept it after the fact (what choice does he have, anyway?), > > but no one consulted him before the fact. > > Before that, Sirius was a suspected murderer. I don't think Dumbledore > was all that sure of Sirius inocence before the SS Once Dumbledore knew that Wormtail was alive, he knew there was, at the very least, a very high chance that Sirius was innocent. And MD, if I recall correctly, posits that Dumbledore knew about Wormtail by the time he sent Snape to the Shrieking Shack. Given what Sirius had suffered in the previous 13 years, the probability of his innocence was certainly high enough to merit consideration of his rights. > You seem to believe that Dumbledore is omnipotent, Marina, which is > obviously not the case. No, I do not believe Dumbledore is omnipotent. I believe that *if* Dumbledore was capable of the kind of knowledge, predictive ability and power needed to carry out MD's master plan, then he would also be capable of doing a better job of controlling the obvious consequences of that plan. I do not believe that Dumbledore has such capabilites, therefore I do not believe there is a master plan. > Voldemort *will* come back, sooner or later. > Because he is *immortal* while in Vapour form. From the point of view > of eternity, sooner or later, he would come back. And sincerely, it > doesn't even look such a especially difficult thing to do. If Harry > were more protected, then Voldemort would only have to use any other > wizard, get the flesh of any other servant and find the ashes of his > father - or even of his mother, or grandparents, or even Salazar's, for > all we know and, voil?!, he's back when no-one expects him or even > remembers him. I repeat my original objection -- if any old enemy and any old servant will do, then why the need for letting Wormtail escape? I don't buy the "life debt" explanation, since we've seen nothing to indicate that a life debt is a predictable or a controllable phenomenon, or that it can be anything more than a minor factor in such a large conflict. James Potter was owed a life debt by someone in Voldemort's inner circle, someone a hell of a lot more impressive than Wormtail, and it did James no good whatsoever. > > And here's another thought -- having arranged for Wormtail's escape, > > Dumbledore must know that Voldemort will want to try for the potion > > as soon as possible, which means that Voldemort will be redoubling > > his efforts to go after Harry. If the re-embodiment is not to happen > > too soon, security around Harry must be tighter than ever before. > > So, knowing this urgent need for heightened security, what does > > Dumbledore do? He holds a Triwizard Tournament, filling Hogwarts > > with hundreds of strangers, including an entire Durmstrang delegation > > of Dark Arts students headed by a known Death Eater. Real tactical > > genius at work there. > > You forget to mention that he gets the best Auror ever to watch over > Harry and the rest of the people involved. The best Auror ever is still only one man (and an old man with a missing leg, at that). I have no doubt that in an "ordinary" school year, the real Moody would've been more than equal to the job of keeping Harry safe. But GoF was far from an ordinary year, even by Harry's standards. From the security standpoint, it was a logistical nightmare of epic proportions. No one man, however brilliant, could be counted on to manage it. Which is why I think that Dumbledore would not have held it if he had strong reason to believe that Voldemort was getting set to launch a major new offensive. Remember, under my "face value" reading of the text, Voldemort has not been heard from since the end of PS/SS -- over two years -- so it would not be unreasonable for Dumbledore to believe that it would be okay to hold the Tournament. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From cindysphynx at comcast.net Mon Oct 14 18:39:09 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 18:39:09 -0000 Subject: A Mrs. Figg Sighting? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45322 After over 45,000 messages from almost 5000 members, I want to see if maybe -- just maybe -- we've all missed a Mrs. Figg sighting. Yes, yes, yes, we all know Mrs. Figg and Arabella Figg are the same person. But what about this, from "The Dark Mark": "Barty," whispered a witch in a long woolen dressing gown, "they're kids, Barty, they'd never have been able to --" AND "We're too late," said the witch in the woolen dressing gown, shaking her head. "They'll have Disapparated." OK, now. Maybe it's me, but I find those two bits of canon to be really weird. This witch knows Mr. Crouch well enough that she can address him twice as "Barty," yet he doesn't bat an eye? Everyone else calls "Mr. Crouch" -- except Bagman and Dumbledore. Whoever she is, she is apparently fairly high up in the Ministry. Also, the witch seems to take up for Harry, explaining that he couldn't have conjured the Dark Mark. She seems experienced, understanding how the Dark Mark works. She knows that the perpetrator would have already disapparated, even while everyone else is lighting their wands and still searching. Every other person in that scene is identified: the trio, Mr. Crouch, Mr. Weasley, Mr. Diggory, Winky, Mr. Bagman. But for some reason, the witch isn't given a name. Could it be . . . Mrs. Figg, fulfilling her role as guardian to Harry? Cindy -- hoping the answer is embarrassingly obvious From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Mon Oct 14 19:16:44 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:16:44 +0100 Subject: the central theme of HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021014194022.00af9400@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45323 At 15:51 14/10/02 +0000, bugaloo37 wrote: >All the posts concerning possible themes of HP, really got me to >thinking-what is the central theme? The one from which all themes >seem to begin. I have a theory on this issue and I wish to post it- >to see what other members think. My theory is this: the central >theme of the HP series is the fight against tyranny. I'd go one step further. I'm not saying this because JKR has used the word several times in interviews, etc, but because it jumped out at me from my first reading of PS/SS (and confirmed itself to me when I read CoS), well before I'd read anything JKR had said outside canon. As far as I'm concerned, the central theme of the Potter books from which all others (including tyranny) spring is prejudice (in that word's true meaning, i.e. "pre-judgment") and what it can do. Although I might meet you half-way and rephrase that as "the tyranny of our prejudices". ;-) Something that's always struck me is that with one notable exception *every single character* in the books has declared themselves to have a blind spot of one sort or another when it comes to dealing with others. Whether it's Voldemort's hatred of Muggles, Harry's distrust of Snape (and vice-versa), Hagrid's various foibles, the wizarding world's treatment of House Elves and other magical creatures, etc, etc. The one character who is prepared to give anyone a second chance, who refuses to judge by appearances, is Dumbledore. Perhaps strangely, he hasn't even had a bad word to say about Voldemort or Tom Riddle. Note how he turns Cedric's death and Voldemort's return into a rallying cry against prejudice and a plea for understanding of each other, NOT into a rallying cry to defeat Voldemort! Or, reading between the lines: we overcome Voldemort by overcoming our petty prejudices and jealousies. What I really admire about JKR's world and her writing is that all of her characters are flawed by a tendency to pre-judge, as are all of us, and it is mainly in this respect that Dumbledore can be given the role of "moral compass" of the books. Most whodunnits (a genre to which the Potter books belong on some levels) are predicated on the principle that the least likely person "dunnit"; the culminating moment is always the revelation of the guilty party and their motives. JKR's genius is to turn that around, and to confront the readers' own prejudices even when reading a book: the culminating scene in each book is NOT the revelation the guilty person, but the revelation not only that the person Harry (and we!) have suspected all along did NOT do it, but was behaving from very honourable motives. This is a subtle difference, but it is precisely that subtlety which has made me a fan. It's all about appearances and the fact that we shouldn't trust them until we know *all* the relevant facts. From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Mon Oct 14 19:18:10 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:18:10 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A Mrs. Figg Sighting? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45324 Cindy writes: "Could it be . . . Mrs. Figg, fulfilling her role as guardian to Harry?" Well, would harry not recognise her? Although she might have been hidden by shadow or a charm Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Cindy C. To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 7:39 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] A Mrs. Figg Sighting? After over 45,000 messages from almost 5000 members, I want to see if maybe -- just maybe -- we've all missed a Mrs. Figg sighting. Yes, yes, yes, we all know Mrs. Figg and Arabella Figg are the same person. But what about this, from "The Dark Mark": "Barty," whispered a witch in a long woolen dressing gown, "they're kids, Barty, they'd never have been able to --" AND "We're too late," said the witch in the woolen dressing gown, shaking her head. "They'll have Disapparated." OK, now. Maybe it's me, but I find those two bits of canon to be really weird. This witch knows Mr. Crouch well enough that she can address him twice as "Barty," yet he doesn't bat an eye? Everyone else calls "Mr. Crouch" -- except Bagman and Dumbledore. Whoever she is, she is apparently fairly high up in the Ministry. Also, the witch seems to take up for Harry, explaining that he couldn't have conjured the Dark Mark. She seems experienced, understanding how the Dark Mark works. She knows that the perpetrator would have already disapparated, even while everyone else is lighting their wands and still searching. Every other person in that scene is identified: the trio, Mr. Crouch, Mr. Weasley, Mr. Diggory, Winky, Mr. Bagman. But for some reason, the witch isn't given a name. Could it be . . . Mrs. Figg, fulfilling her role as guardian to Harry? Cindy -- hoping the answer is embarrassingly obvious Yahoo! 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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From atrocity.geo at yahoo.com Mon Oct 14 18:28:58 2002 From: atrocity.geo at yahoo.com (atrocity.geo) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 18:28:58 -0000 Subject: The true depth of Snape's hatred for Sirius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45325 I've been pondering this as of late, and thinking too much about it no doubt, but the hatred that lies between these two strikes me as deeper than Snape's anger about the werewolf incident and the Marauders' rulebreaking...and while discussing this with someone on the phone, my mom overheard me and asked what I was going on about...and I sort of blew her off saying "just debating why Sirius hates Severus, nothing big..." and mom's response was..."Oh, are they brothers? Those sound like a pair of names from one family rather than 2 seperate names..." At first I was rolling my eyes, then it struck me...what if, on some level...step siblings perhaps...Snape and Black WERE connected and theres some huge understory here that is just waiting to explode...then again, I could just be thinking about this too much as I just finished GOF on CD for the 3rd time. Ah well...thoughts? "atrocity.geo" From jayenks at yahoo.com Mon Oct 14 18:57:38 2002 From: jayenks at yahoo.com (Jackie) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hogwarts Student Population In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021014185738.48795.qmail@web40301.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45326 --- GulPlum wrote: > I'm not sure if that was clear, but to put it > another way, assuming there > are, say, 20 second-year pupils in each of > Gryffindor and Hyfflepuff, > rather than have the 20 Herbology pupils made up of > one set of 10 > Gryffindors and 10 Hufflepuffs in one lesson and > another 10 Gs and 10 Hs in > another, it would have been easier to simply have > all 20 Gryffindors in one > class, and the 20 Hufflepuffs in another. Now, I went to an American school, not Brittish, but my experience is that easier isn't always how schools do things. All through Elementary school, we were assigned a class with a teacher. However, every year, we mixed classes for at least 1 subject. In the beginning, like 1st and 2nd grade, this was just math, and based on your level of comprehension, so you studied with people more at your own level. By 5th grade, we had a regular class, and aptitude-based math and reading, and a mixed history/current events course. Now, it would have been much easier for the school to just put all the better math and/or reading students in one class and have the same teacher work with them all the time, but they didn't. Why? Well, I can't say for sure, but I think it was because then the 'smart' kids would never learn that they have to be patient sometimes, and the 'dumb' kids would always think they're 'dumb' and worthless. It also helped a lot with socialization. I think this would be a key reason why Hogwarts would mix classes, even though it is more difficult: To prevent prejudices between the houses in witches and wizards that might have to work and/or live together someday. Otherwise, it would be too easy for the Department for Magical Law Enforcement to become totally filled with Gryffindors, for example, because the people in charge were Gryffindors and always associated with Gryffindors and only saw the other houses at meals, therefore how can we be sure that they will ever measure up to our (Gryffindor) standards? Mixing the houses up in classes allows all the students to get to know others, make connections, and learn that wizards may have different skills, but they are all equally nice, qualified, learned, etc. > The one piece of canon we have which is unequivocal > about the number of > boys in Harry's year is that each year, his dorm > in > the tower is "the [X] > years' boys' dorm" implying that the five boys > in > Harry's dorm are all the > Gryffindors for each year. This may just be a difference between England and America, and I am fully open to corrections if I am wrong, but can you prove that there are only 5 boys in Harry's *dorm*? I know that there dorm is pointed out as being on one side of the hall, but who says that that door doesn't lead to a hall full of doors to rooms? We only know the 5 boys in Harry's room, but there could be other rooms attached to that hall. This is a less-stable arguement, however, because here in America, in colleges, a Dorm is a building as well as a room. When I say 'I am going to my Dorm' I could mean my room, but I could just mean the building, which houses 800 other students. Please, someone in England correct me if this is not the case there. ~Jaye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From jayenks at yahoo.com Mon Oct 14 19:12:06 2002 From: jayenks at yahoo.com (Jackie) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] A Mrs. Figg Sighting? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021014191206.31483.qmail@web40309.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45327 --- "Cindy C." > After over 45,000 messages from almost 5000 members, > I want to see > if maybe -- just maybe -- we've all missed a Mrs. > Figg sighting. (snip) > Every other person in that scene is identified: the > trio, Mr. > Crouch, Mr. Weasley, Mr. Diggory, Winky, Mr. Bagman. > But for some > reason, the witch isn't given a name. > > Could it be . . . Mrs. Figg, fulfilling her role as > guardian to > Harry? I wouldn't think so. JKR doesn't name her because Harry hasn't been introduced to her yet. When Harry first meets Cornelius Fudge, the Minister of Magic, he is just described as a 'very odd-looking man' until Ron tells him who the new person is (COS, ch.14, pg 260 US paperback). I only point this out because Harry _has_ been introduced to Mrs. Figg. She is his babysitter. I believe that Harry would have at least commented on the fact that his old muggle babysitter is dressed as a witch and holding a wand at a wizard game campout. In my opinion, this could not be Mrs. Figg, but a random charachter, or one we have yet to meet. ~Jaye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From flower_fairy12 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 14 19:25:46 2002 From: flower_fairy12 at yahoo.co.uk (flower_fairy12) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:25:46 -0000 Subject: A Mrs. Figg Sighting? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45328 Cindy C. Wrote: After over 45,000 messages from almost 5000 members, I want to see if maybe -- just maybe -- we've all missed a Mrs. Figg sighting. > "Barty," whispered a witch in a long woolen dressing gown, "they're > kids, Barty, they'd never have been able to --" > > AND > > "We're too late," said the witch in the woolen dressing gown, > shaking her head. "They'll have Disapparated." But wouldn't Harry have recognised her? He should know what she looks like fairly well. And also, do you think that she would have let him find out she was a witch like that? I think she should break it gently! Also, I think it's weird that in GoF when Dumbledore tells Sirius to go to Mrs Figg, that Harry didn't associate the name. AND don't you think it's strange that she is called MRS Figg? Where is her husband? And am I just being stupid? :) *Rosey* From cindysphynx at comcast.net Mon Oct 14 20:17:55 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:17:55 -0000 Subject: A Mrs. Figg Sighting? In-Reply-To: <20021014191206.31483.qmail@web40309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45329 Jaye wrote: >JKR doesn't name her because Harry hasn't been introduced to her >yet. . . . I believe that Harry would have at least > commented on the fact that his old muggle babysitter > is dressed as a witch and holding a wand at a wizard > game campout. and Rosie agreed: >But wouldn't Harry have recognised her? He should know what she >looks like fairly well. And also, do you think that she would have >let him find out she was a witch like that? I think she should >break it gently! I guess it depends on what you believe about Mrs. Figg. We know she is part of the old crowd, and I think we know she'll appear in OoP. Personally, I've never thought JKR is going to bring this elderly, frail, brittle-boned daft lady into Dumbledore's inner circle in OoP. I think all of that is part of Mrs. Figg's disguise -- a disguise that I always figured involved some aging potion. The reason Harry doesn't recognize her, then, is because she isn't in her elderly neighbor disguise. In fact, if she is part of Harry's protection (or maybe even the source of it), then it makes sense she would have stayed close to Harry that night. Otherwise, I sure can't figure out why this *one* female character is given two lines -- lines that could easily have been spoken by Arthur Weasley. On the question of why she remains unnamed, JKR could have named her quite easily. Had one of the other characters addressed her by name ("I guess you're right, Arabella"), then Harry would know her and so would the reader. I think JKR chose not to name her. Methinks it's a set-up. Especially given how many times JKR said she had to re-work that particular chapter. Cindy -- prepared to wager that the witch is going to be important From ronib at mindspring.com Mon Oct 14 20:22:26 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:22:26 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Operative!Arthur Meets Imperius!Arthur (WAS TBAY: Arthur Weasley With In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45330 Cindy stood up from her deck chair on the Imperius!Arthur Trimaran and walked off as the steel drums played a jazzy rendition of "Celebrate." Veronica, though, remained sitting, her brow furrowed, and looking altogether as if she was in pain from thinking too much. Suddenly, the flash came back into her eyes, and she jumped up, chasing Cindy around the corner. "Come around already?" Cindy asked with a hopeful grin. "No," Veronica, answered, "but I had an idea anyway." Cindy looked doubtful, but decided there was no harm in listening to the newcomer. "Let's hear it." "Well," Veronica started, shyly. "I think we're looking at this the wrong way. Who says that Imperious!Arthur and Operative!Arthur are mutually exclusive?" Cindy stared at Veronica with a touch of disbelief and concern. "How long have you been on this ship anyway? You know, you don't have to sit in the sun all day. I think perhaps it's getting to you--I just explained." "Well, yes, I know," Veronica answered, even more hesitantly. "But just sit back down for another minute and let me see if I can explain . . . . " "Well," Cindy thought aloud. "You did listen to my ideas . . . Okay, what have you got?" she replied, climbing onto the railing, ready to listen. "Well, first, maybe in the past Elkins has been a bit . . . unstable, but I really think she was on to something this time. You know, it's a fine line between genius and crazy, so maybe she crossed the line this once." "No, Arthur is supposed to be this low-level bureaucrat who doesn't even make enough money to keep his children in proper robes and wands. So why would Dumbledore think Arthur could contact 'those at the Ministry who are not as shortsighted as Cornelius' and could do so 'discreetly,'" Cindy asked. "I see what you're saying," Veronica replied, "but there are other ways you can read that. You said yourself, 'And he seems to be awfully well-connected at the Ministry.' Look at all the people he KNOWS! "Arthur is one of those outgoing guys who has friends everywhere! He has contacts in several different departments. Just look at the scene in GoF where he and the kids are sitting in front of their tent before the World Cup. It seems like everyone that walks by waves and greets him. That man has a finger in every pie of the MOM. Think how useful that would be to Dumledore!" "That's what I'm saying," Cindy told Veronica, as patiently as she could. "He has too many contacts, too much access, to be just a low-level employee of the minstry." "I agree!" Veronica replied. Smiling as Cindy looked at her as one might look at an asylum inmate, running around the room calling himself Napoleon. "See, I'm not denying that there might be more to Arthur than we have seen. In fact, the idea of Auror!Arthur is kinda growing on me. That's why I have a special section of the ship set aside just for fans to Auror!Arthur. That's the beauty of Imperius!Arthur, it plays well with so many others! I like the idea that he was a very powerful guy around the MoM during the Voldemort years, but there is no reason why you can't mix that with the idea that he is tortured about his past (*cough* Imperius *cough*) and that is why he has 'retired' to a quiet life in Muggle Artifacts. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive." "Well, maybe . . . ." Cindy replied, looking doubtful. "But like I said before--this idea of Arthur under the Imperius curse just doesn't bang! How is this suppose to have any impact on the final outcome of the books?" "Aha!" Veronica added with a smile. "I think it will have a tremendous amount of impact. In fact, I think this little tidbit will lead to final downfall of one of the most evil, most dispised Death Eaters!" "Okay," Cindy answered, standing back up. "That's it! You're as nutty as Elkins!" "Nutty like a squirrel!" Veronica announced triumphantly. "Hear me out . . . ." She waited until Cindy had sat again, though looking quite warily at Veronica as she did so. "Think about this, the 'good' guys have a tendency in these books of helping those who are doubting themselves. In PoA (US, HB 132), when Snape tells Lupin not to trust Neville to do anything right, Lupin makes a point of doing just that--to help Neville build his self confidence. And Dumbledore is contastly trying to help Hagrid. In the very first chapter of the whole series, McGonagall implies that Hagrid is not the most trustworthy, but Dumbledore often gives him important tasks--bringing Harry to Privet Drive and collecting the Stone from Gringotts. He gives him a promotion to CoMC teacher and supports him both after the Hippogriff accident and after Rita's revelation about his ancestry. "If Arthur does still harbor some guilt or self-doubt concerning being Imperiused, doesn't it sound like Dumbledore to trust him, and even to give him a chance to prove is worth, both to himself and to anyone else who might still be harboring doubts? I think so anwyay. "There has been a lot of talk about second chances and proving yourself in these books. Snape got a second chance. Sirius 'kinda' got a second chance. Harry has been given a number of chances to prove himself, like in the climax of PS/SS. Dumbledore taught him (or let him find for himself) enough to allow him to face Voldemort. Some might argue that the same happened in CoS. Personally, I think that is a major theme of the whole series. Voldemort in GoF was (unintentionally) allowing Harry to prove himself. Hagrid has been allowed a number of chances to prove himself. This is really common. "That said--I think Arthur will be given a chance to prove himself before this is over. One, because he is a very lovable character; many of us think he deserves more. Two, I think there really is something between him and Lucius that must be resolved. The scene in CoS where they fought in the bookstore does seem to show some deep, lasting hard feelings between the two of them. Most folks go get into a fist-fight over a couple of insults, especially not kinda-hearted guys like Arthur. "Hopefully, Lucius will get what he has coming to him at the end, and I'm sure I'm not the only one hoping Arthur is the one to get him. What wonderful justice it would be if we learned that Lucius was the one who Imperio'ed Arthur, but Arthur defeats him in the end! My mouth waters just thinking about it." "I just don't know," Cindy answered shaking her head. "I don't know if you have something or if you are just stark raving mad. I'll have to think about that one." "Well, do consider it," Veronica answered. "Like I said, there is room for Operative!Arthur on board any day. But let me tell you," she added, shaking her head, "with these hunky shirtless cabin boys bringing me Pina Coladas, you're going to have to THROW me from this ship kicking and screaming!" From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 14 20:43:04 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:43:04 -0000 Subject: Catching Up - MAGIC DISHWASHER Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45331 [Catching up after RL intervenes]: Metathinking: Can I just join in with Grey Wolf and say that Metathinking is fine in and of itself? In fact, I remember doing quite a few posts comparing JKR's style to Agatha Christie's. :-) What I object to is doing a long, heavily researched post considering a theory from the point of view of internal evidence, trying to argue it from the point of view that the Wizarding World is real and the characters within it have realistic motives [and I know which is the real world and which isn't; the real world is the one in which I just got my phone bill ], and then getting a reply that says [basically], `well, your theory can't be true because the books are called Harry Potter and '. Such a reply is arguing from a totally different level of theory, which the original post wasn't trying to address or consider. As Grey Wolf says' `it's not fair play'. I doubt Marina and I are ever going to agree about literary theory, because I suspect we're arguing from different theoretical backgrounds; me being essentially trained to produce a believable characterisation from a written text to an audience that probably mostly thinks `semiotics' is a brand of semolina [grin]. But this is part of the fun of this list ? we all have different backgrounds and bring our own different interpretations. But I accept that my interpretation of Marina's use of `literary text' was due to my not realising that she was using it in reply to a previous post. I do believe that a literary theory which refers to the internal evidence of the text is essentially superior to one that doesn't ? but then, that's why I studied drama and history at college rather than English Lit [grin]. [Oh, and I *hate* Brecht ] Melody: >Me still blushing: >Really? My own room in the theory house? Why I don't know what to >say. Sneeky the House Elf is getting your room ready ? you don't have to use the DISHWASHER if you don't want; we welcome guests who prefer to wash their own conspiracy theory/spying/secret background planning dishes. Richard Gulplum: >Lupin was there and was doing a magnificent job of keeping things >under control until Snape arrives. Despite being one of the "old >crowd" andclearly quite powerful in his own right, was Lupin not >trustworthy enoughnot to manage to get things done according to >the Master Plan withoutSnape's involvement? What was Snape's >involvement *meant* to achieve, and what *did* it achieve which >could not have been achieved by Lupin alone? Well, Lupin in the Shrieking Shack is also a werewolf who has forgotten to take his Wolfsbane potion on the night of a full moon ? as Snape reminds him, in Chapter 19 of PoA. So, no, I don't really think that Dumbledore's Master Plan involved Harry becoming a plate of Wolfie Chunks, and yes, he might think Snape's involvement was necessary, even if he did believe totally in Lupin's trustworthiness when not in werewolf form. As to whether Lupin is trustworthy: Pippin might have a thing or to to say about that [and already did, back in post # 39362]. Richard: >the main function of M.D.appears to be to give Snape a >more "honourable" function in the story to >date than canon would imply at first glance. Oh, I never said Snape was *nice* [grin]. But way, way back in post #39265 I quoted the Sphinx's definition of `spy', which appears in the same book that we discover Snape was a spy: First think of the person who lives in disguise, Who deals in secrets and tells naught but lies. [ GoF Ch. 31 pp.546 to 547 UK Hardback]. Take that quote and run with it and you end up with an interesting interpretation of Current!Snape. Snape is only the centre of post #39662, part 2 of the Magic Dishwasher/Spying game is post # 40044 which is primarily concerned with Voldemort. Phyllis: >what troubles me is why Dumbledore would allow the third task to >proceed at *night* within a *20 foot high hedge*, where no one >could see what was going on inside and prevent horrible things from >happening. >Especially since Dumbledore was "reading the signs" regarding >Voldemort's attempts to regain power. I think Dumbledore was fooled (and he* was* fooled, he did not plan the Graveyard Scene) by the `no apparition in and out of Hogwarts' rule. The maze was patrolled by Moody,(who he hadn't spotted as Crouch Jr,) Professor McGonagall, Professor Flitwick and Hagrid. The hazards within were known (he thought). With loyal wizards patrolling the entrances and exits, no one could get in the maze to harm Harry. A rejigged Portkey never occurred to him DISHWASHER is not actually a `Dumbledore is omniscient' theory, or `Voldemort is omniscient', or anybody is omniscient [except, of course, JKR - the REAL puppet master - but that is Metathinking par excellence]. It simply (ok, complicatedly) argues that there is evidence that both Voldemort and Dumbledore are making long term strategic plans, (including the famous Flawed Potion) and that the several references within the book to `spies' or `sources' mean that both sides are using a network of spies (e.g. Snape), informers (e.g. Pettigrew), and undercover agents (e.g. Quirrelmort and Moody/Crouch Jr.). Marina again: >Once Dumbledore knew that Wormtail was alive, he knew there was, at >the very least, a very high chance that Sirius was innocent. And MD, >if I recall correctly, posits that Dumbledore knew about Wormtail by >the time he sent Snape to the Shrieking Shack. Given what Sirius had >suffered in the previous 13 years, the probability of his innocence >was certainly high enough to merit consideration of his rights. Dishwasher argues that Dumbledore was not certain of Black's innocence until the interview with him at Hogwarts. By which time, realistically, it was too late. Fudge was already on site; Dumbledore had seen Fudge drag Hagrid off to `protective custody' only last year (CoS), despite the flimsy evidence and Dumbledore's firm *insistence* that Hagrid was innocent. The evidence against Black is much stronger. Even if Pettigrew had been present, confessing all in front of Fudge, there is NO evidence Fudge would have believed it ? look how Fudge treats Barty Crouch's reported evidence in GoF. The Dishwasher argument is that a proved innocent Black is Harry's legal guardian (PoA), entitled to insist Harry is removed from the Dursley's abusive `care'. Unfortunately, Harry is `protected' at the Dursley's (GoF Ch.33, p. 570 UK hardback). You could argue that Sirius would be certain to make the right decision where Harry's safety is at stake, but what Dumbledore knows is the canon point (PoA Ch. 19) that Black has been entrusted with the safety of a Potter before, and he blew it What Dumbledore does is to decide that Black's `right' to exoneration has to be put to one side; possibly permanently, in favour of Harry's right to life. However, he does act to protect Black's right to liberty and life (and, since Black stays out of Azkaban, his right to pursue happiness)by helping him escape, and later concealing his whereabouts (GoF). If you go through the books you'll see that in the 'orchestrated by Dumbledore' events Harry has always chosen *himself* to risk his life. The one where he has no choice is the Graveyard... And now I must get back to filling sandbags for the flood defenses, or Cindy will kill me... Pip!Squeak From ronib at mindspring.com Mon Oct 14 20:47:15 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:47:15 -0000 Subject: (non)TBAY: Arthur Weasley With Imperius Curse and Small Craft Advisories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45332 Anna Hemmant wrote: > > Hello! Can I pleade just say that JKR seriously puts a lot of > emphasis on the fact that it not what we are born, but what we chose > to become that shapes us. Therefore, any explaination in terms of > inheritance couldn't be countenanced. However, perhaps you might be > onto something in the magical inheritance thing, but what could the > the cruciatus curse or the AK curse have similar effects? Would > these have to run in the same way as inheritance? i.e. would neville > have some kind of traces of the crucio in his blood despite the fact > that it's administered to his parents after he's born? Would this > add to the sociological reasons for his fear of this specific curse, > or am I just talking a load of brown round things? You are right, Anna. JKR does make a point to saying that the choices we make are more important than what we are born with, or as it is stated at the end of CoS (US, HB 333), "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." That said, I think she has a special importance for what he inherit, though, too. A great deal has been made recently about whether Harry inherited Quiddich skills from his father. There are hints that Harry's eyes, which he inherited from his mother, will play an important role, and while we do not know for a fact, most folks seem to agree that magical ability itself is inherited. So, while she does place a lot of importance on the decisions we make, there is still an arguement for heridity--especially in a case like this where no choice is involved. Ron would not have to choose whether or not to be more vulnerable to a particular curse. That MIGHT POSSIBLY just be something that is in his blood or his genes, for whatever reason. Just as magical ability itself MIGHT be genetic-- notice there is no choice there either. =) Perhaps there is room for both, as both have already begun to play a part, and we still have three books left (YEAH!). Veronica From brian042 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 14 20:52:45 2002 From: brian042 at hotmail.com (Brian) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:52:45 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter-Investigative Reporter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45333 As far as yellow journalism in the WW goes, Rita Skeeter is apparently No. 1. With the aid of her quill, she can put a sensationalistic, inflammatory slant on an otherwise drab and boring story. What if she managed to come across a story so earth shattering, that it didn't require any embellishment? Would she sacrifice the secrecy of her own animagi capabilities in order to tell this story? What could this story be? How about the presence of a convicted murderer/Azkaban escapee/unregistered animagi in the Hogwarts hospital wing conspiring with the Headmaster and a former Death Eater to embark upon a course of action contrary to the stated wishes of the Minister of Magic? Rita Skeeter was there at the time! Examine the final pages of the chapter entitled "The Parting Of The Ways", and ask yourself; "How much does she know", "Would she reveal her own secret to blow this story wide open?", "Which side is she going to wind up on?" Answers to these questions, and many, many more, when OoP is released. bkb042 From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Oct 14 20:54:57 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:54:57 -0000 Subject: the central theme of HP In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021014194022.00af9400@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45334 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: > > It's all about appearances and the fact that we shouldn't trust them until we know *all* the relevant facts. The above statement, IMO, summarizes the series- puts it in a nutshell. When I said that the fight against tyranny was the central theme, perhaps I should have clarified it a bit more. I too agree that prejudice and the catastrophic effects it entails is absolutely tied to the fight against tyranny. Prejudice is Voldemort's main tool. IMO, prejudice is overcome, when people begin to think for themselves-when they begin to see the merits of the individual. You are absolutely correct when you say that on some level all the characters are prejudiced-accept Dumbledore. IMO, Dumbledore has achieved the highest level of understanding. He understands that the real war is not against Voldemort but against our own tendencies. We must each choose-not be blindly led. It is much easier to let someone else do the thinking for us- but IMO, this is the road to tyranny. IMO, tyranny in the WW is like tyranny elsewhere- it is only achieved when people refuse to take a stand-in other words, think for themselves. bugaloo37-who also agrees that JKR has wrote a truly relevant and profound series of books. From kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 14 20:46:45 2002 From: kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com (kateydidnt2002) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:46:45 -0000 Subject: A Mrs. Figg Sighting? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45335 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "flower_fairy12" wrote: > Also, I think it's weird that in GoF when Dumbledore tells Sirius to > go to Mrs Figg, that Harry didn't associate the name. AND don't you > think it's strange that she is called MRS Figg? Where is her husband? > And am I just being stupid? :) > > *Rosey* Dumbledore tells Sirius to contact Arabella Figg, so Harry wouldn't automatically associate Arabella Figg with Mrs. Figg, plus he had rather *a lot* on his mind at the time, he may not even have really noticed this one statement. Yeah, I wonder about the Mrs. thing too. Is it part of her disguise, that she is an old widow (for that matter she could really be that old and look like that) that she takes the Mrs. title, or is she really married? What I find interesting is the fact that we know Mrs. Figg is Arabella Figg and a witch (or at least I don't see any other explanation for JKR's intervies comment "well spotted" on that subject) and the tent that the girls (I think it was the girls' tent I don't have my book in fornt of me)reminded Harry of Figg's house. Arthur borrowed it from Perkins (correct me if I'm wrong, again my book is not with me. So is this a normal thing, for wizarding abodes to smell of cabbage and cats? Or is there some connection between Figg and that tent and/or Perkins? Kateydidnt Kateydidnt From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Oct 14 21:21:23 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:21:23 -0000 Subject: About Florence Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45336 I've read many of the old Florence theories, and I haven't found this one. But I haven't read any single post, so maybe I just missed it, and it was already mentioned. I think that Florence is the later Mrs Longbottom, Neville's mother. After all, Neville is very good in herbology. It's not very realistic that he has inherited the talent from his father, an auror, so maybe he has it from his mother, and who could be a better herbologist as someone with the name "Florence"? I also think, it is odd, that Neville's mother's first name wasn't mentioned at the trial against Crouch jr and the others. Crouch sen. talked about Frank Longbottom and Frank Longbottom's wife. Why isn't the name of Frank's wife mentioned, although she was a victim? This isn't logically. JK Rowling could easily have invented some name like Beth or Marcia or whatever, but she didn't. So I suppose, that Neville's mother is more important as Frank. And whose name was mentioned in the same chapter, only a few pages later? Florence's. JK Rowling often mentioned the names of figures, who will be important later, we all know this (Sirius, Mrs Figg etc.). But if she has mentioned Florence's name at the trial, everybody would have recognised it, because the second mention of Florence were only short time later. I am sure, whoever Florence is, if she ist important, that she kissed Snape behind the greenhouses. But she dumped him and married Frank Longbottom. This would explain Snape's horrible behaviour towards Neville. What do you think about this theory? Is it possible? Hickengruendler From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Oct 14 21:23:21 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:23:21 -0000 Subject: Catching Up - MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45337 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bluesqueak" wrote: > > It simply (ok, complicatedly) argues that there is evidence that > both Voldemort and Dumbledore are making long term strategic plans, > (including the famous Flawed Potion) and that the several references within the book to `spies' or `sources' mean that both sides are using a network of spies (e.g. Snape), informers (e.g. Pettigrew), and undercover agents (e.g. Quirrelmort and Moody/Crouch Jr.). > I can go along with the above statement-but there is one more thing I would like clarified before I join the bandwagon. When you say "long term strategic plans"-it makes me wonder how exactly does Harry fit into this? Is he a key element? If so, can he be considered a wild card at this point? How heavily are Dumbledore's plans relying on the decisions Harry at least seems to be making for himself? Is Harry being manipulated? If so, how is that being achieved-through carefully worded guidance or some other tactic? I guess my real question is this: is the fact the Dumbledore spends so much time teaching Harry to think for himself -part of his long-term plan? I am afraid I just don't see it-how can teaching someone to think for himself -ever be a dependable tactic? bugaloo37 From rmatovic at ssk.com Mon Oct 14 21:40:46 2002 From: rmatovic at ssk.com (Rebecca M) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:40:46 -0000 Subject: Remember Cedric In-Reply-To: <009201c2732f$a9386de0$a39dcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45338 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > Okay, I need help. Can someone clear this up for me? This comes from Dumbledore's end of year speech to the students in GoF: > Very simply, this strikes me as a "these are the stakes" speech -- you may face a choice between the hard way and the easy way, but when you do, remember Cedric, remember what's at stake, remember the implication of accepting the easy way. It's not a reference to or analysis of Cedric's behavior, it's calling on the memory of Cedric and the evil of what was done to him to motivate and inspire the future troops. Rebecca From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Mon Oct 14 20:27:51 2002 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (Kaarlo Moran) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:27:51 -0400 Subject: Assumptions on who joined Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45339 There?s been a lot of discussion about houses and such, but one thing has been nagging me for a while. Ron said in SS that most of the dark wizards that came out were mostly from Slytherin. Also, does anyone think that most of Voldemort?s followers were only from Slytherin? I believe they were all human and had the capacity to be enticed by the Death Eaters. So, even a Hufflepuff could?ve joined the Death Eaters...just an idea, since in canon I haven?t ready anything about other houses being in the ranks of the Death Eaters. -K [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 14 20:50:50 2002 From: kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com (kateydidnt2002) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:50:50 -0000 Subject: The true depth of Snape's hatred for Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45340 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "atrocity.geo" wrote: "just > debating why Sirius hates Severus, nothing big..." and mom's > response was..."Oh, are they brothers? Those sound like a pair > of names from one family rather than 2 seperate names..." > At first I was rolling my eyes, then it struck me...what if, on some > level...step siblings perhaps...Snape and Black WERE > connected and theres some huge understory here that is just > waiting to explode...then again, I could just be thinking about this > too much as I just finished GOF on CD for the 3rd time. > Ah well...thoughts? > > "atrocity.geo" Although I can find absolutely no canon evidence for this theory, I find it one of the more interesting theories as to why Severus hates Sirius so much. There are a number of fanfics that I have read based off of this theory. I guess the only thing we can do is wait and see what JKR does with it. Kateydidnt From eloiseherisson at aol.com Mon Oct 14 22:02:56 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 18:02:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] TBAY: Operative!Arthur Meets Imperius!Arthur (WAS TBAY: ... Message-ID: <155.15e97f1e.2adc9910@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45341 Eloise, out for a spin on the Parallel Universe Fourth Man vessel, spotted some unaccustomed activity on the deck of the Imperius! Arthur Trimaran. Could that really be Captain Cindy out in the Bay after all this time? Yes! The Paddle was unmistakable, even if the uniform was a little dusty and cobwebs obscured the gold braid. Pulling in alongside she caught the end of the conversation. Captain Cindy, it appeared was trying to convert the Trimaran's new owner to a Bigger, Bangier view of Arthur Weasley. "Cindy!" The Captain carried on. She was clearly absorbed in her argument. "Cindy!" Cindy cleared her throat significantly. I submit: "CLOAKANDDAGGERARTHUR [Covert Liaison Operative Arthur is the Key to Assured Non-violent Destruction of Diabolical Axis, with Global Governance and Equilibrium at Risk, from the Ascension of Ruthless Terrorists with Homicidal, Unspeakable Resolve]." "CINDY!" The Captain turned with a look of triumph on her face. "Good, isn't it?" "Excellent!" agreed Eloise. "And you know what I think I can offer you another piece of canon which ties in with the Imperius theme." "You can?" "Indeed I can! If I recall correctly, this whole Arthur with Imperius thing grew out of the assumption that there was significance the fact that Ron knew about Imperius and that Crouch/Moody said, "Your father *would know that one. Gave the Ministry a lot of trouble at one time, the Imperius curse". This has been extrapolated to suggest that Arthur had *personal* experience of the Imperius." "Yes. We all know that." "OK, I know. But later, in Padfoot returns, Sirius talks about how the Aurors were given increased powers, powers to kill, rather than capture, for instance..." "But in my theory Arthur's an Unspeakable, not an Auror." "Yes. Wait a minute. He then carries on to say that Crouch authorised the uses of *the Unforgivables* against suspects. He doesn't say that it was only the Aurors who were allowed to use the Unforgivables. What he potentially implies is that other MoM employees were permitted to use the Unforgivables, including Imperius. So maybe Arthur wasn't a *victim* of the Imperius, but actually *used* it himself. You know, we have evidence that Ministry wizards *could* use the Imperius - Crouch Sr. uses it himself, on his son." "That's true," said Cindy. "The only thing is, erm... your acronym." "My acronym?" asked Cindy, a steely look in her eye. "There's nothing wrong with my acronym." "No, no...it's beautifully crafted. It's just that Non-violent bit. Sirius tells us that Crouch fought violence with violence. If Arthur was pivotal in the fight against Voldemort I hardly think he was simply sitting behind a desk. And don't you think that the upcoming struggle might be just the teensiest bit violent? You know, perhaps the odd *ambush* here and there? What's happened to your FEATHERBOAS, woman? Did those poor owls give their lives in vain? "But to go back to the theory, there's another thing. It always struck me as pretty odd that Arthur had to spend so much time sorting things out at the Ministry after the QWC. That feeble excuse about how he'd made things worse. What had the misuse of Muggle artefacts got to do with that? At least Percy had the excuse of being in the right department. No. You're right. Arthur seems to be much more important and have much more experience than at first appears. Except where Muggle artefacts are concerned. Has it ever struck you as odd that for one so obsessed with Muggles, who collects plugs, etc, he's amazingly ignorant about Muggle things? But was he actually an Unspeakable? How can we tell?" Eloise For further explanation of the acronyms and theories in this post, visit Hypothetic Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% 20Files/hypotheticalley.htm and Inish Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 From jtdogberry at hotmail.com Mon Oct 14 23:22:21 2002 From: jtdogberry at hotmail.com (jtdogberry) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 23:22:21 -0000 Subject: About Florence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45342 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "hickengruendler" wrote: > I've read many of the old Florence theories, and I haven't found this > one. But I haven't read any single post, so maybe I just missed it, > and it was already mentioned. > > I think that Florence is the later Mrs Longbottom, Neville's mother. > After all, Neville is very good in herbology. It's not very realistic > that he has inherited the talent from his father, an auror, so maybe > he has it from his mother, and who could be a better herbologist as > someone with the name "Florence"? Could well be!! After all, the best known Florence, is Florence Nightingale. Herbology and medicine could easily be combiened. The number of times Sprout has mentioned that the school matron needs certain herbs to cure students!!!. > I also think, it is odd, that Neville's mother's first name wasn't > mentioned at the trial against Crouch jr and the others. Crouch sen. > talked about Frank Longbottom and Frank Longbottom's wife. Why isn't > the name of Frank's wife mentioned, although she was a victim? This > isn't logically. JK Rowling could easily have invented some name like > Beth or Marcia or whatever, but she didn't. So I suppose, that > Neville's mother is more important as Frank. And whose name was > mentioned in the same chapter, only a few pages later? Florence's. JK I have mentioned this many times before but no one has ever taken me up on it. My theory is a little different for your though. Many years ago, the was a childrens program where the baddie was after this retired prof, the good guys found him and his wife but so did the baddies. The good guys and this old guy were taken to baddie's lair and the "prof" was made to crack the code except that they had the wrong person, it was his wife!!!! A similar story could have happened here, it could also explain why they tortured Mrs Longbottom after her husband. Another idea is that she may appear in a later book, it would give a big clue if her first name had been already mentioned but now JKR can use her first name and maiden name (many women now keep the maiden names for working) to throw us off that trail if need be. > I am sure, whoever Florence is, if she ist important, that she kissed > Snape behind the greenhouses. But she dumped him and married Frank > Longbottom. This would explain Snape's horrible behaviour towards > Neville. Or it could be she is related to Snape and he blames Frank for not looking after her. But yes, this is a good case. However, it could also hold true to what I said above, that Bertha could have seen Frank kiss her but because of of what was happening around them/ or another reason, they decided to keep their relationship secret. TTFN Dogberry (who is happy that someone else is curious about Neville's mother) From Malady579 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 14 23:31:09 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 23:31:09 -0000 Subject: small question from TBAY Imperius!Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45343 Cindy wrote quoting others: > "And then there's Arthur's reluctance to expose himself to the > Veela's charms -?" Cindy went on. > > Veronica leaned forward in her chair. "Oh, but Elkins has that > angle covered. She said Arthur's reluctance to expose himself to > the Veela's charms at the QWC shows his vulnerability to the > Imperius Curse. " While I don't think this matters greatly in either defense, I would like to ask one question. Where does Arthur purposely avoid watching veelas? In GoF, Ch 8, when the veelas come onto the field.... "I wonder what they've brought," said Mr. Weasley, leaning forward in his seat. "Aaah!" He suddenly whipped off his glasses and polished them hurriedly on his robes. "Veela!" ("Veela" in italics mind you) An Imerius!Arthur is aware of his weakness of mind. He would not want to clear his vision *quickly*, but rather find a way to distract himself. Arthur seems quite pleased in what he was about to see. And with these freshly polished glasses, Arthur watched the veelas dance and is not recorded as having any overly-pleased reaction. In fact we have evidence that he was of sound mind. Same book, same chapter: "Ron, meanwhile, was absentmindedly shredding the shamrocks on his hat. Mr. Weasley, smiling slightly, leaned over to Ron and tugged the hat out of his hands." After the dance of the vixens, Arthur was clear headed enough to think of his son and calm him a bit. Sounds like a good father, to me, who is completely capable of watching six of his own kids and two of his kids' friends, one of which needs *special* watch. But as I said, I don't think small point sinks your ship at all. Melody From the.gremlin at verizon.net Mon Oct 14 23:07:34 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 23:07:34 -0000 Subject: About Florence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45344 hickengruendler wrote: "I've read many of the old Florence theories, and I haven't found this one. But I haven't read any single post, so maybe I just missed it, and it was already mentioned. I think that Florence is the later Mrs Longbottom, Neville's mother. After all, Neville is very good in herbology. It's not very realistic that he has inherited the talent from his father, an auror, so maybe he has it from his mother, and who could be a better herbologist as someone with the name "Florence"? I also think, it is odd, that Neville's mother's first name wasn't mentioned at the trial against Crouch jr and the others. Crouch sen. talked about Frank Longbottom and Frank Longbottom's wife. Why isn't the name of Frank's wife mentioned, although she was a victim? This isn't logically. JK Rowling could easily have invented some name like Beth or Marcia or whatever, but she didn't. So I suppose, that Neville's mother is more important as Frank. And whose name was mentioned in the same chapter, only a few pages later? Florence's. JK Rowling often mentioned the names of figures, who will be important later, we all know this (Sirius, Mrs Figg etc.). But if she has mentioned Florence's name at the trial, everybody would have recognised it, because the second mention of Florence were only short time later. I am sure, whoever Florence is, if she ist important, that she kissed Snape behind the greenhouses. But she dumped him and married Frank Longbottom. This would explain Snape's horrible behaviour towards Neville. What do you think about this theory? Is it possible?" I jumped on this theory because it's definitely a new one. I warn you, though, I have a bad habit of killing threads. Anyway, it has been speculated that Snape was the one kissing Florence behind the greenhouse, but this is new, about Florence being Neville's mother. As far as I can see, there is no canon evidence for this, but then there is no canon evidence that it was Snape with Florence. I agree with you that Florence will probably become important later. First of all, Harry hears about her, and it's in a chapter where most of the stuff he hears is important later on, and her name is mentioned in relation to Bertha Jorkins. I'm not sure about the Florence/Herbology connection, but the kissing was behind the greenhouse, so it could work. Perhaps it was after an Herbology class, or Florence was working in the greenhouse, as she did so often, and Snape met here there. Now, as for it being Snape. Other than the hex, we don't really have canon for it being him. It would be interesting to find out what house Neville's parents were in, though. Yah, I don't think Neville would inherit any herbology talent from his father, and we just don't know enough about his mother. Since she was mentioned, however, in an important moment in GoF, I think that she will certainly become important later on. We already have Frank's name and occupation, why shouldn't we have Mrs. Longbottom's? Also, why DID the DEs torture her? If she was so unimportant as to not even be given a first name, what would make them think she knew about Voldemort? Unless, it WAS Snape she was kissing, and perhaps they were friends of a sort, and were in contact or something, and the DEs knew that? Then they would have a reason to torture someone for information as seemingly as unimportant as the unnamed Mrs. Longbottom. Now, for Neville inheriting his mother's talent for herbology, it has been implied that Lily Potter was good at charms, and James Potter was good at Transfiguration. However, Harry is good at DADA, so I don't think Neville would have inherited his mother's talent. Also, JKR is stressing the "who you become is more important than what you were born to" point. I hope this made sense, as I am in between classes and work, and trying to make coffee. I also hope that I don't kill this thread! -Acire, who gave her friend a Snape doll for a gag gift, and we spent the afternoon playing with him and pondering how he wound up fat with Santa Clause-like pink cheeks and forehead. And also, why he was wearing a dress. From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 15 00:42:51 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 00:42:51 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew Is Ever So Brave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45345 While, Peter might be brave and might have nerve...it seems to me that he fits the Sorting Hat descriptions of Slytherins just as easily. Now, I hear those grumbles in the back. I am not trying to make Peter fit into Slytherin just because he is a dark wizard. Let me just begin...borrowing Elkin's user-friendly quoating style... The un-bias sorting hat describes Slytherin's: PS/SS 1) "cunning" 2) "any means used to achieve thier ends" GoF 3) "shrewd" 4) "power-hungry" 5) "ambition" Frankly, Peter fits those descriptions quite well. 1) He proves his cunning with his framing of Sirius. Quick bit of fast thinking there. 2) Used all means to reach his ends. Lie, steal, cheat, or kill...As God as my witness I'll never go hungry again! ;) Sorry, I felt compeled and besides Scarlet O'Hara would make an excellent Slytherin...but I digress... Hey, but wait, the means to reach his ends don't have to be as cruel as lying and killing. Peter was friendly to Bertha to lull her away. A quiet, good rat to the Weasleys to stay alive and in the know. *Fatherly* to Voldemort. Groveled at the feet of the guests at the Shrieking Shack to save his life. Peter uses *all* means to reach his end. 3) Shrewd (shrood), adj. 1. astute or sharp in practical matters Maybe Snape better fits the personification of shrewd, but Peter does have a small bit. He finds the practical solution of living as a rat to keep and eye and ear on the Wizard World. 4) How power-hungry Peter is is still left to just ponder. I do think he does see the benefits of aligning himself with stronger wizards. With thier guidance, he is able to be stronger and more powerful as a wizard, thus being able to become a animagus. I am sure that was not the only benefit. By being in proximity of better wizards, the reflected glory of thier power shines on him as well. Hmmm, are we talking about Peter or Draco now? 5) Ambition is even bit harder to pinpoint with Peter. His only "ambition" right now seems to be survival. So yes, Peter may be brave and may have daring, but really. It is the "promenant" characteristics that cause a wizard to be sorted into one house over another. If not, then Hermione deserves to be in Ravenclaw for her cleverness, Cedric deserves to be in Gryffindor for his bravery, and Fred and George deserve to be in Slytherin for thier cunning. Peter is, first and formost, a wizard that works to no end using all means to reach his ends...his ambitions...his need to be greater than himself...which is really what being power-hungry is, isn't it? Oh and one last thing... I originally wondered: >Who as a side note when rereading the graveyard scene, wonders how small Pettigrew had enough strength to cut through his forearm with one swish of his dagger. Either that is a VERY sharp dagger or a VERY fast, strong swish.< Elkins proposed: >>Well, the dagger was being used as an important tool in an elaborate work of old Dark ritual magic, so while I'd ordinarily call this explanation a cop-out, in this case I think that it's eminently fair. >>It was a *magic* dagger.<< Me: You know, you have to love a series of books where a suggestion of a *magical* dagger is not only plausible but one you can not refute. The only other theory in my mind is that JKR did not desire to write a gory American civil-war hospital type scene where Peter hacked away at his arm. I know. It's metathinking, but this detail could just be a matter of plot-flow rather than physical accuracy. Hope this all makes sense. Melody From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 00:51:42 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 00:51:42 -0000 Subject: Preventing the Unexpected (WAS: Catching Up - MAGIC DISHWASHER) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45346 I said: > What troubles me is why Dumbledore would allow the third task to > proceed at *night* within a *20 foot high hedge*, where no one > could see what was going on inside and prevent horrible things from > happening. Especially since Dumbledore was "reading the signs" > regarding Voldemort's attempts to regain power. and Pip!Squeak responded: > I think Dumbledore was fooled (and he* was* fooled, he did not plan > the Graveyard Scene) by the `no apparition in and out of Hogwarts' > rule. The maze was patrolled by Moody,(who he hadn't spotted as > Crouch Jr,) Professor McGonagall, Professor Flitwick and Hagrid. > The hazards within were known (he thought). With loyal wizards > patrolling the entrances and exits, no one could get in the maze to > harm Harry. A rejigged Portkey never occurred to him. now me again: I don't see how Dumbledore could have been so fooled after his age line, which was designed to protect underage wizards (and was, IMO, designed to keep Harry in particular from danger) was crossed in the first place. I think he was genuinely worried about Harry during all of the tasks - when Dumbledore wishes Harry good luck with the third task in Ch. 30 of GoF, he looks "older than ever." In addition, Crouch!Moody admits that he could only see through the "outer hedges" (Ch. 35, GoF). Moreover, if he could have seen through to the middle of the maze, he would have undoubtedly thrown a curse Cedric's way to leave the path to the Cup clear for Harry. However, I admit that it's possible that Crouch!Moody lied to Dumbledore and told him that he could in fact see through more than just the outer parts of the maze. But I still don't think that would have provided Dumbledore with sufficient assurances of Harry's safety. IMO, there's more to this - perhaps part of the "magical contract" that binds all whose names emerge from the Goblet of Fire to participate in the Tournament also requires the Tournament to proceed with the tasks that were originally planned and does not allow any alteration of such plans? This is the only way I can make sense out of Dumbledore allowing Harry to be put in such danger throughout each task of the Tournament. ~Phyllis From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 01:02:16 2002 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 01:02:16 -0000 Subject: Magic Daggers and Gleams of Triumph (WAS: Peter Pettigrew Is Ever So Brave) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45347 Melody wondered: > how small Pettigrew had enough strength to cut through his forearm > with one swish of his dagger. and Elkins proposed: >It was a *magic* dagger. now me: Hmmmm...if it was a *magic* dagger, could it be part of the explanation of the mysterious "gleam of triumph" in Dumbledore's eyes when he learns that Wormtail used it to take Harry's blood for Voldemort's regeneration potion? ~Phyllis who is always looking for a plausible explanation for Dumbledore's "gleam of triumph," but hasn't found one she likes yet From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 15 01:04:53 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 01:04:53 -0000 Subject: The "face-value" theory of PoA -- now with shiny acronym! (LONG) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45348 I've been citing the "face-value" reading of the events in PoA in response to MAGIC DISHWASHER posts, and it occurs to me that it might be useful to explain exactly what I mean by this. If nothing else, it will make it easier for people to compare and contrast the two theories without having to comb through dozens of posts in order to piece together my position. By my reading, there was no Dumbledore-designed master plan operating in PoA (or, by extension, in GoF). Dumbledore knows that there's a very good chance that Voldemort may come back one day, but he doesn't consider it a sure bet (see his words in Ch. 17 of SS: "if he is delayed again, and again, why, he may never return to power.") In any case, Dumbledore has no way of knowing or controlling how Voldemort might return, nor does he have any reason to suppose that any one method is preferable to another. He is preparing for the worst-case scenario in the best way he can: by ensuring that Harry gets as much instruction and experience (both magical and moral) as possible before the final confrontation. In the absence of a master plan, Snape's reactions in PoA have to be taken at face-value -- that is, we have to assume they are genuine, and not part of a carefully constructed performance designed to further a strategic goal. The question then is, do his reactions make sense in that context, given what we know of the character's history and psychological makeup from all the books? I believe the answer is yes. Let's go over what happens, shall we? The whole thing begins when Snape brings the Wolfsbane potion to Lupin's office only to find that Lupin isn't there. As Snape explains at the beginning of Ch. 19 of PoA, he then sees the Marauder's Map on the desk, and it shows Lupin running toward the Shrieking Shack. This confirms the suspicions Snape has been nursing all year: "I've told the headmaster again and again that you're helping your old friend Black into the castle, Lupin, and here's proof." (Pg. 358, US paperback edition) This is a rare moment for Snape: for once, his duty (protect the school from a dangerous maniac) leads him in the same direction as his desire (get revenge on Black and Lupin, and prove to Dumbledore that he's been right about them all along.) So Snape rushes out of the castle and heads for the Whomping Willow, where he finds Harry's cloak. (Time-traveling Harry and Hermione actually see him do it.) The cloak tells him that Harry (and, almost certainly, Ron and Hermione) are in the Shack with Black and Lupin. This creates a complication: there are students in danger, children he has a duty to protect, even if they are dunderheads. So he can't just rush through the door and blast everything in sight, he has to be careful. Snape puts on the cloak, sneaks into the Shack to see what's what, and finds Black and Lupin befuddling the children with a pack of apalling lies. So he reveals himself and confronts Black and Lupin. At this point, Snape is in a very precarious position. He's facing two powerful evil wizards, one of whom is likely to turn into a bloodthirsty monster at any moment. He's outnumbered, and responsible for the safety of three ungrateful brats who, instead of discretely making themselves scarce, keep arguing with him, distracting him, and generally getting in the way, no matter how often he tells them to shut up. And then, to add injury to insult, the brats go and knock him unconscious. Unfortunately, he's unconscious long enough to miss all the visual proof of Pettigrew's existence and Sirius' innocence. He wakes up outside. Lupin is gone, Black and the dunderheads are lying around unconsious. Here is Snape's chance to carry out his earlier threat and call the Dementors in for Sirius. But now that there's no immediate danger, Snape can afford to think a little more clearly, and he knows perfectly well that Dumbledore wouldn't approve of him handing over an unconscious prisoner to be Kissed. Dumbledore hates the Dementors, after all. Plus, Dementors aren't always easily controllable. Who's to say that once they're done with Black, they won't go for one of the kids as an after-dinner snack? Or Snape himself? By bringing Black in alive, Snape can live up to Dumbledore's standards, eliminate unnecessary risk, and the end result will still be the same; Black will only be kissed a little later. So Snape conjures up some stretchers and floats everyone back to the castle. (Again, time-traveling Harry and Hermione actually see him do this.) At this point, Snape is sitting pretty. (Well, as pretty as Snape ever gets, anyhow, which isn't very. ) Black's been captured, Lupin has proven himself untrustworthy, Harry and friends owe him their lives, and Fudge is ready to pin the Order of Merlin on him. Life is grand... and then it all falls apart. Black disappears, and Snape knows, he *knows,* dammit, that Potter was behind it, but he's too angry to immediately figure out how. (I'm assuming that he, along with the other teachers, knows about the Hermione's time- turner.) It's at that point that he loses it and starts his infamous "you pesky kids" rant, and really, who can blame him? So he stands there ranting and raving, until Dumbledore makes his remark about Harry and Hermione being "in two places at once," and it's at that point that the penny drops. Note that once Dumbledore says this, the fight goes out of Snape immediately. No more yelling, no more trying to convince anybody. He stands there for a few moments, looking from Fudge to Dumbledore, then abruptly turns and leaves. Why? Because Dumbledore's words clue him not only on how Black's rescue was done, but also on the fact that *Dumbledore was in on it.* At that point, Snape is stuck. He understands that no matter how much he argues, Dumbledore is not going to back him up on this one. And when it comes right down to it, Dumbledore is the man in charge. So Snape does the only thing left to him and retreats from the field. (And vents his frustration the next day forcing Lupin's resignation.) So there you have it. Note that this theory does not assume any important events or conversations happening "off-screen." If canon doesn't say it happened, then it didn't happen. In keeping with the kitchen appliance theme of this topic, I hereby dub this theory PRESSURE COOKER: Presented with Remus' Evil, Snape's Somewhat Unhinged; Refuses Explanations, Confronts Outrageously Overt Killers; Embarrassment Results. All we need now is for somebody to come up with a Kitchen-Sink theory, and we'll be all set. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 15 01:06:23 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 01:06:23 -0000 Subject: About Florence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45349 Acire wrote: > I jumped on this theory because it's definitely a new one. I warn > you, though, I have a bad habit of killing threads. Me: Acire. You are being too hard on yourself. Obviously, you have a nice way of saying everything so well that all ties together into nice little bows. We can't refute you...or at least that is what I tell myself when I manage to kill threads. :) Now on to the task at hand... Acire continued: > Anyway, it has been speculated that Snape was the one kissing > Florence behind the greenhouse, but this is new, about Florence > being Neville's mother. Me: If Florence is approximately the same age as Snape, it is possible that she could be Mrs. Longbottum and had Neville. It is Snape's age group that has children that are Harry's age. So we can deduce that Mrs. Longbottum is *at least* close to Snape's age...assuming she did not become pregnant at Hogwarts. ;) She, of course, could be older. Frank Longbottum is well respected in the auror world and well liked. As established in the community as they were, I wonder if they are not at least ten years older than Snape. While it is possible that they established such a reputation quickly, I doubt it is plausible. So either Mr. and Mrs. Longbottum are little social climbers or they had Neville kind of late in life. So I guess that doesn't answer the question of whether Mrs. Longbottum is Florence. It is possible... > -Acire, who gave her friend a Snape doll for a gag gift, and we > spent the afternoon playing with him and pondering how he wound up > fat with Santa Clause-like pink cheeks and forehead. And also, why > he was wearing a dress. I know they made his look rather feminine and likable. The nerve. Melody From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Oct 15 01:11:58 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:11:58 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:(non)TBAY: Arthur Weasley With Imperius Curse and Small Craft Advisories References: Message-ID: <01f101c273e7$dc76ad80$66a0cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45350 > > Elkins, in her lovely TBAY post, said: > > > > <<<"It does make sense that some families might be more vulnerable > to > > the Imperius curse," said Veronica. "After all children of > alcoholics > > are more likely to be alcoholics. Perhaps there is a gene that > some > > have that make them less able to fight off that curse. That would > > explain why Ron has a more difficult time with that curse in DADA > > class." Okay, I have one problem with this. There's both Barty Crouch Sr and Jr with the Imperius Curse. It took Jr years to break it, whereas Sr broke it in a matter of months. I believe that is the only place where a father/son were both under the Imperius curse, albeit at different times and different people's curse. I am still a bit confused how one maintains an Imperius curse from miles and miles away. Can the same thing be true for other curses? The Crucio perhaps? Can you crucio someone, apparate away, and them still be tortured? Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Oct 15 01:33:58 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:33:58 -0500 Subject: Analyzing Fred and George SS/PS Message-ID: <020301c273ea$ef84e240$66a0cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45351 Yes, here we go again. :) I know this has been brought up, and ever since it has been I've been noticing the differences between the twins more and more. So, since I had this incredibly boring four day workshop to attend, I took advantage of the opportunity to take some notes. I wrote down every conversation with Fred and George in, so far, SS/PS and CoS. I'm currently about half way through PoA. So I thought I'd start now, with SS/PS. I left out any instances where it is unclear which twin is speaking (like when Harry was listening to them at the train). So anyway, here we go, all page numbers are Scholastic paperback editions. First, from SS/PS: page 92: Fred tells Molly he's not Fred, he's George. "And you call yourself our mother? Only joking, I am Fred." This is a joke, yes. But it's rather rude to Molly. But, of course, they are practical jokers, we know that. And it's from Fred. page 94: George says to Harry "Want a hand?" Notice George offers the help. page 97: Fred discusses the "black haired boy" with Molly, that was Harry Potter, we saw his scar, do you think he knows what You Know Who looks like, etc." All George says here is to Ginny, "We'll send you a Hogwart's toilet seat. Only joking, Mom." page 106: Ron says that George gave him the spell to turn Scabbers yellow "Bet he knew it was a dud." Cute joke, right? George is responsible for this one--but even I thought it was funny. page 115: Ron says Fred told him he'd have to wrestle a troll to be sorted.--Fred does love to scare his kid brother, doesn't he? page 122: Both twins cheer "We got Potter!" as Harry is sorted into Gryffindor. page 153: George says to Harry "Well done, Wood told us." about him being made Seeker. Fred's first comment is "We're going to win the Quidditch cup for sure this year." It is George who congratulates, Fred who wants to win. Nothing wrong with that, just pointing it out. page 185: Fred and George "help" Oliver with his speech. Fred says they know it by heart, as they were on the team last year. page 202/203: The infamous sweater scene. Fred makes the first comment--that Harry's sweater is better. That Molly makes more of an effort if you're not family. George, on the other hand, asks Ron why he isn't wearing his, they're lovely and warm. Okay, maybe he's being sarcastic, though there is no indication of such. George also notes that Ron has no letter on his sweater. Fred insists on Percy wearing his sweater, George insists Percy sit with the family--Christmas and all. In this scene anything negative has come from Fred. Positive from George, it is quite clearly divided here. page 216: Fred and George are diving and pretending to fall off brooms when Oliver informs them Snape is refereeing the Quidditch match. George does fall off his broom, then states that Snape won't be fair, etc. page 307: End of term, letters are given out about no magic over the summer. Fred comments "I always hope they'll forget to give us these." Okay, this is getting long. That's it for SS/PS. The only prominent instance we really have of George, the "good brother" are him offering Harry help with his trunk. However, George does tend to be the more "family" oriented one. Fred, on the other hand, does stand out as the more mischevious one, if that's possible. At least, if anything, Fred's jokes seem more "rude" than George's. The troll, the "you call yourself our mother" comment, the "she obviously makes more of an effort if you're not family" remark. I shall start a new post for CoS, since it will be even longer! Richelle ************************************************************* "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring ************************************************************* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 15 01:42:44 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 01:42:44 -0000 Subject: Task 3 point of view In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45352 Phyllis first stated: >>what troubles me is why Dumbledore would allow the third task to proceed at *night* within a *20 foot high hedge*, where no one could see what was going on inside and prevent horrible things from happening. Especially since Dumbledore was "reading the signs" regarding Voldemort's attempts to regain power.<< Pip!Squeak replied: >>>I think Dumbledore was fooled (and he* was* fooled, he did not plan the Graveyard Scene) by the `no apparition in and out of Hogwarts' rule. The maze was patrolled by Moody,(who he hadn't spotted as Crouch Jr,) Professor McGonagall, Professor Flitwick and Hagrid. The hazards within were known (he thought). With loyal wizards patrolling the entrances and exits, no one could get in the maze to harm Harry. A rejigged Portkey never occurred to him...<<< Me: To add to what Pip said...the maze was on the Quidditch field. All the judges (which includes Dumbledore), students, parents, and other teachers (i.e. Snape) were in the stands, which are raised from the ground originally for better view of Quidditch, but come in handy to have a bird's-eye-view of a very tall maze. All eyes were on the competitors and were able to see all that was going on in the maze. Hey, the audience at least had better seats in Task #3 than they did in Task #2. Judge Dumbledore was *supposed* to watch Harry, and Non-patroling Snape was completely free to *only* watch Harry. Melody From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Oct 15 02:01:13 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:01:13 -0500 Subject: Analyzing Fred and George CoS Message-ID: <020c01c273ee$bdef9140$66a0cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45353 Here we go again, the continuing analysis of Fred and George, or Gred and Forge, whichever you prefer. :) This time, with CoS. One comment before I start, Fred and George had more lines in the first 35 pages than in the entire first book, thanks mainly to the flying car rescue. pages 24-27: It is George who asks "All right, Harry?" as they prepare to pull the bars off the window. Fred simply gets down to business and says "Tie that around the bars." Fred goes on for a while about knowing a muggle trick. George tells Harry they'll get his trunk. pages 28-29: Fred explains about house-elves. George realizes Draco Malfoy must be Lucius' son. Fred tells how Arthur always thought Lucius was in You know Who's inner circle. George remarks that Molly's always wished they had a house elf to do the ironing, and that you wouldn't catch one (house elf) in their house. page 30: Fred identifies Hermes as Percy's new owl. George comments on Percy acting oddly. page 31: Fred details how Arthur is fascinated with Muggle stuff. page 32-33: Fred outlines the plan to sneak Harry up to Ron's room and present him in the morning, then sees Molly "Ah," he says. George cheerily says "Morning Mum" then "Sorry, Mum, but see, we had to--" George did say sorry. May not have meant it, but he said it. page 34: The excuses for the latest mischief? Fred: "It was cloudy, Mum." George: "They were starving him, Mum." Now there's a distinct difference for you. George's response was far more personable. pages 35-36: Fred says Ginny will want Harry's autograph, he's tired, wants to go to bed, thinks Molly fancies Lockhart. George says "We know how to degnome a garden, Mum." page 38: Arthur returns home from work. George "He's back! Dad's home!" Fred: "Find anything, Dad?" George seems again the family oriented one. page 44: Fred comments that they are all required to get Lockhart's books. George says "That lot won't come cheap, Lockhart's books are really expensive." Once again, George is concerened for the family's monetary condition. page 46: Fred wishes he knew what Percy was up to. George explains O.W.L.'s to Harry, and how Bill got twelve too. George then comments "Don't know how Mum and Dad are going to afford all our school stuff this year. Five sets of Lockhart books! And Ginny needs robes and a wand and everything." Clearly, George is concerned about the money (or lack of). Not complaining about it, but worried how they'll manage. skipping over several minor parts, where George wonders why the Quidditch speech couldn't have happened when they were awake and so on, Slytherins turn up with Draco as seeker, etc. page 155: We learn it was Fred who as a child turned Ron's teddy bear into a spider. Bad Fred, Bad! pages 167-169: The Rogue bludger match. Fred winks at Harry, "no pressure" George is first to fight off the bludger, "Close one, Harry!" Fred waiting at the other end to hit it away, "Gotcha!" Fred determines someone's tampered with the bludger, George calls for a time out, angrily tells Oliver they were trying to keep the bludger from murdering Harry. Fred tells Harry "Don't be thick, it'll take your head off" while George yells at Wood for telling Harry to get the Snitch or die trying. page 175: The team pays a visit to Harry in the hospital, where George says "Unbelievable flying, Harry" and goes on to say how Flint yelled at Malfoy. Fred doesn't get a comment in before they're thrown out. page 210: We find both twins leading Harry down halls with the cry of "Make way for the Heir of Slytherin, seriously evil wizard coming through." Fred asks Harry loudly who he's going to attack next, while George "wards him off" with garlic. page 240: They both enjoy singing "His eyes are as green as a pickled toad." page 258: George tells us "Percy's in shock" over Penelope being attacked. page 341: On the train going home, Ginny tells of Percy's girlfriend. Fred drops a stack of books on George's head with a "what?" and "promises" Ginny they won't tease Percy "Wouldn't dream of it" while George says "Definitely not." And that is it. To me, in CoS George definitely develops the "kinder, gentler" characteristic. He's concerened about his family, about Harry, fusses at Wood over Harry, etc. Shall PoA continue this trend? Stay tuned, it'll be along in a few days. :) Richelle, who in case you haven't noticed, is *determined* that there is something to this "good twin/bad twin" thing, as stereotypical as it may seem. ************************************************************* "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring ************************************************************* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Oct 15 01:57:04 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 01:57:04 -0000 Subject: Catching Up - MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45354 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bluesqueak" wrote: >>You could argue that Sirius would be certain to make the right decision where Harry's safety is at stake, but what Dumbledore knows is the canon point (PoA Ch. 19) that Black has been entrusted with the safety of a Potter before, and he blew it What Dumbledore does is to decide that Black's `right' to exoneration has to be put to one side; <<< Along with the sacred wishes of the dead (GoF ch 34 and 37) and his own belief in second chances. Are you saying that instead of what was right, Dumbledore chose what was easy, trusting to his own power and knowledge to protect Harry better than Sirius' love? Is a Dumbledore who would allow an innocent man to be pursued by Dementors really more realistic or consistent than one who wouldn't, even for a moment, permit a guilty person to suffer a moment of well-deserved embarrassment? For someone who isn't omniscient, DISHWASHER Dumbledore seems arrogantly sure of himself. How can he know that no other wizard will be able to hold off Voldemort? How can he know that Voldemort can either find a way to duplicate the Sorcerer's Stone, though no one has managed to do it in 600 some odd years, or create for himself an invulnerable body, though no one's ever done that either? Pippin joining PRESSURE COOKER From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 15 02:03:27 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 02:03:27 -0000 Subject: Analyzing Fred and George SS/PS In-Reply-To: <020301c273ea$ef84e240$66a0cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45355 Richelle wrote: >>So, since I had this incredibly boring four day workshop to attend, I took advantage of the opportunity to take some notes. I wrote down every conversation with Fred and George in, so far, SS/PS and CoS.<<< I don't know whether to be jealous that you are have the *paid* free time to research Harry Potter, or sympathetic to your venture. Ok, I'm jealous. :) While I in no way want to discourage your work and do hope you continue with this thread....I just wonder if we are *meant* to tell them apart. They are never separate and always together...they might as well be Siamese. Do you really believe that one with go one-way and the other another? (Gee, that is a bit wordy. Hehe...) All canon, even predictions of their future business schemes, have they together. Why distinguish them? Melody Who is a social/post butterfly tonight. :) From nithya_rachel at hotmail.com Tue Oct 15 02:21:17 2002 From: nithya_rachel at hotmail.com (errolowl) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 02:21:17 -0000 Subject: Not so very clever Albus... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45356 Dicentra in message 45230: >>"Dumbledore is often amused by his own cleverness, as seen in PP/PS when he confides to Harry that hiding the Stone in Erised was one of his better ideas." << Yes, old Albus is frequently amused by his own cleverness. In fact he frequently seems to go out of his way to complicate things so he can solve them cleverly...though those solutions are debatable. Yes, yes, I know, we've all been through this a thousand times, but I'm in just the sort of bad mood to grumble about this a little. First lets start with hiding the stone in the mirror of Erised. yes, that works perfectly when the baddies need to get at the stone doesn't it? Voldmort would just see himself drinking the exlir, just as Quirrel saw himself presenting it to his master. But how long would it have held out? Don't you think that as voldmort got more frustrated and angry, a terrified Qurirrel would have panicked? He'd no longer be so taken by the glory of presenting the stone to his master, but get a desperate case of "Oh my God! I've GOT to find the stone, or I'm dead!!". And once that was his overriding desire, couldn't he have then found it? Looks to me like that mirror was just a short term barrier, designed to delay voldmort till Dumbledore could get there....and what if Albus couldn't get back in time? Was there really no more foolproof way? At least it turned out right that time.... Looks like a similar goof-up with the age line around the Goblet. It didn't fulfill its purpose, did it? You'd think that the most powerful Wizard in the world could be more thorough in his precautions. True, he thought he just needed that device to withstand the deviousness of a few 'ickle students...but those same students could have come up with the unexpected (oh, come on! we've seen students write the maurauders map, turn into illegal animagi, preserve memory in a diary, conjure the patronus, etc...all advanced magic, I'd say). It might take a powerful wizard to confuse the goblet into including a fourth school, but not necessarily require such power to cross the age line. And did that age line prevent any of the older students from acting as an agent for the younger ones and dropping their name in? or the use of say, a catapult, to flick the piece of paper into the goblet from a distance? we don't quite know..... Errol who seems to have worked off the bad mood, and has suddenly run out of steam. From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Oct 15 02:38:53 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:38:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Analyzing Fred and George SS/PS References: Message-ID: <001f01c273f4$013ec2e0$5d9fcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45357 Melody wrote: > While I in no way want to discourage your work and do hope you > continue with this thread....I just wonder if we are *meant* to tell > them apart. They are never separate and always together...they might > as well be Siamese. Do you really believe that one with go one-way > and the other another? (Gee, that is a bit wordy. Hehe...) > > All canon, even predictions of their future business schemes, have > they together. Why distinguish them? Ah, you see that, I think, is the key. We are meant to think we shouldn't distinguish one twin from another. The differences are so subtly put in that we aren't intended to notice. But the differences are there. Suppose something happens to one twin but not the other. Something like, made Quidditch captain, offered a deal from a joke company, etc. What happens then? Would a rift form? Could one be tempted by the dark side? Suppose one twin dies. What happens to the other? Now, this might not be so interesting if there weren't differences in them. But there are. In SS/PS very slight, though they really don't have enough time to develop any sort of characterizatoin. However, going on to CoS there are more distinct differences. As in George worrying about his family, Fred seemingly oblivious, or would rather not mention it at all. As I get through PoA, we shall see if the trend continues. Oh, and not to worry. I am not easily discouraged. :) Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Tue Oct 15 02:49:49 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 03:49:49 +0100 Subject: The "face-value" theory of PoA -- now with shiny acronym! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021015032354.00962100@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45358 At 01:04 15/10/02 +0000, marinafrants wrote: >I've been citing the "face-value" reading of the events in PoA in >response to MAGIC DISHWASHER posts, and it occurs to me that it >might be useful to explain exactly what I mean by this. I was nodding with enthusiastic agreement until I got to this bit: >(I'm assuming that he [Snape], along with the other teachers, knows about >the Hermione's time-turner.) >So he stands there ranting and raving, until Dumbledore makes his >remark about Harry and Hermione being "in two places at once," and >it's at that point that the penny drops. Note that once Dumbledore >says this, the fight goes out of Snape immediately. No more >yelling, no more trying to convince anybody. He stands there for a >few moments, looking from Fudge to Dumbledore, then abruptly turns >and leaves. Why? Because Dumbledore's words clue him not only on >how Black's rescue was done, but also on the fact that *Dumbledore >was in on it.* At that point, Snape is stuck. He understands that >no matter how much he argues, Dumbledore is not going to back him up >on this one. And when it comes right down to it, Dumbledore is the >man in charge. So Snape does the only thing left to him and >retreats from the field. (And vents his frustration the next day >forcing Lupin's resignation.) As I think I previously pointed out, Dumbledore's "amusement" doesn't really make sense if Snape knows about the Time-Turner. As I see it, Dumbledore is amused as they enter the Hospital Wing not because Snape knows how Harry did it, but because never in a month on Sundays would Snape be able to work out how Harry did it, *even if Dumbledore gives him a whacking great clue*! The only valid reason for Dumbeldore to be amused at that point (unless, as the M.D.ers would have it, the surface text makes him appear to be sadistic) is that Snape doesn't have a clue what's going on and has no grounds to be able to work it out. As it happens, Dumbledore's first words in that scene are to establish that the kids have been locked in the Hospital Wing. Only *then* does he suggest that they'd have to be in two places at once to have been able to have assisted in Sirius's escape. If we're talking "surface reading", it is the realisation of the *impossibility* of that fact that shuts Snape up, not a realisation that Dumbledore authorised the use of the Time-Turner. Snape is said to be looking from Dumbledore to Fudge, *seething*, as if looking for a way around the conundrum of bi-location, not knowing whether he should be angry at Dumbledore or Fudge. Dumbledore's statement does not pacify him in the slightest, it just leaves him speechless. >So there you have it. Note that this theory does not assume any >important events or conversations happening "off-screen." If canon >doesn't say it happened, then it didn't happen. Sorry, as I think I've successfully argued, your explanation implies off-screen information given to Snape about the Time-Turner. >In keeping with the kitchen appliance theme of this topic, I hereby dub >this theory PRESSURE COOKER: Presented with Remus' Evil, Snape's Somewhat >Unhinged; Refuses Explanations, Confronts Outrageously Overt >Killers; Embarrassment Results. Despite being very much a non-flag-waver, I'd be happy to display your PRESSURE COOKER in my kitchen if you'd accept the above provisos.... :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who'd REALLY like to deal with the plethora of MAGIC DISHWASHER posts from the last 24 hours, but notes that it's almost 4am and he has to be up and rested in less than 4 hours, and so hopes to dream of kitchen appliances and report his findings on the morrow... From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 15 03:05:42 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 03:05:42 -0000 Subject: Catching Up - MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45359 I know these questions are not asked directly to me but... Pippen asked: >>Are you saying that instead of what was right, Dumbledore chose what was easy, trusting to his own power and knowledge to protect Harry better than Sirius' love?<< Seems, Sirius's love becomes over blinded at time. If Sirius really loved (i.e. felt the need to protect) Harry, he would not of be rash and gone after Peter. You must also remember at the time of the Potter's death, Dumbledore thought Sirius was the secret keeper; therefore, he betrayed his love of the Potters. Dumbledore took Harry under his wing because of all this. Besides, it has been said that Voldemort only feared Dumbledore. I see no reason why Dumbledore would not think that he was more capable of protecting Harry than Sirius even when he knew that Sirius was completely innocent. After the shrieking shack, what situation was Black in to protect Harry? He had let Dumbledore down once before, so even though Dumbledore is a trusting wizard, it is the wiser move to keep Harry in the "safe house" Dumbledore has constructed for Harry, which has never been foiled. This way, Harry is still in the dark about all the protection he is under and Dumbledore has a closer watch on Harry. Black may still be perceived falsely as a dark wizard, but this is not the time *yet* to right all wrongs. This is war. Next question posed by Pippen: >>Is a Dumbledore who would allow an innocent man to be pursued by Dementors really more realistic or consistent than one who wouldn't, even for a moment, permit a guilty person to suffer a moment of well-deserved embarrassment?<< I think Dumbledore is one to see the repercussions of his actions before he acts. If there is nothing good to be gained from an action, then why do it in the first place. He gives second chances where they are due when he sees a true sense of repentance or innocence behind the actions. Snape and Hagrid both are examples of this. We have no example of Dumbledore blindly giving people a chance just because they are human. He sees their heart and trusts their eyes. Ok that sounds a bit mystical, which is not what I meant. Let me try to explain, Dumbledore knows that something terribly wrong happened with the Potter's Fidelius Charm. Dumbledore knows that Sirius was a major player in the pre-planning and, as far as Dumbledore knew, was the secret keeper. Now, Dumbledore could of wondered whether Sirius was in fact *the* secret keeper for the Potters. He did know Sirius and his passion/love quite well, but the fact that the charm went wrong does looks bad on Sirius since he was so involved in the whole process. Whatever decisions transpired on Black's part were not chosen wisely. Therefore, even if Dumbledore knew Peter was Scabbers and knew that Sirius wasn't the Potter's secret keeper, he still had enough reason to believe that there for foul play from Sirius. Until Dumbledore sat down and talked to Sirius, I believe that Dumbledore did not know the whole truth about Black and which side he was playing. When Dumbledore did sit down and chat, I do believe he did see and discovered Black was on the level. Saw those puppy eyes so honest...so hurting... After he knew Black was completely innocent, then he *protected* him from the dementors. Third question from Pippen: >>>For someone who isn't omniscient, DISHWASHER Dumbledore seems arrogantly sure of himself. How can he know that no other wizard will be able to hold off Voldemort?<<< Generals of war must be a bit arrogant. By looking over the plans, getting council, finding out what the enemy wants, they are able to make stronger decisions to stop the war. It is this collaboration of information and people that Dumbledore commands. Frankly, it seems General Dumbledore *knows* no other wizard is able to hold Voldemort off, because no other wizard is up to the task. He is the only one. Besides, everyone looks up to Dumbledore, so if he doesn't fight Voldemort, then in the eyes of Mom and Pop Wizard, who can? He is their Superman...wait...or is that Harry? Last question from Pippen: >>How can he know that Voldemort can either find a way to duplicate the Sorcerer's Stone, though no one has managed to do it in 600 some odd years, or create for himself an invulnerable body, though no one's ever done that either?<< Well, I don't think Dumbledore is worried about Voldemort recreating the stone. If Voldie could, he would of already. What Dumbledore knows is that Voldemort needs is a body. With this knowledge, Dumbledore can create a plan that gives his side an advantage that Voldemort will not see. That is what Dumbledore wants; that is the crux of MD. Melody From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Oct 15 04:23:50 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 04:23:50 -0000 Subject: Juice Changes Everyone (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45360 Juice Changes Everyone To the tune of Love Changes Everything, from Lloyd Webber's finest musical, Aspects of Love Hear a MIDI at http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/aspects_of_love.html Dedicated to Lilac THE SCENE: Potions Class. Enter HARRY, SEVERUS SNAPE, and from the opposite direction, BARTY CROUCH JR.. each bearing a copy of Moste Potent Potions HARRY: Juice Juice changes everyone Ron to Crabbe, and Me to Goyle Juice Juice changes everyone Once you let the Fluxweed boil Juice Can make Hermy feline Or turn DEs Into Aurors Yes, Juice Juice changes everyone: How I tremble At its taste. For it has a Flavor just like Toxic waste SNAPE Juice Juice changes everyone: How to best serve Dumbledore? Juice Juice changes everyone: Here's what I'll do Post-Book Four Juice Will turn this war around, And that war Will finish Voldy. Yes, Juice Juice changes everyone: Brings his downfall Brings our win For this potion Lets me play a DE twin (to HARRY) Why did you swipe my ingredients...? HARRY (spoken) Snape, it's all in the past... CROUCH, JR. Off to Hogwarts School I went Sabotaging Tri-Wiz tasks Juice I used it hourly >From a handy Hip-side flask Juice Take hairs from anyone And you'll be Like two peas in pods Yes, Juice Juice changes everyone. I tampered with Magic flame. SNAPE & HARRY (simultaneous with below) Juice will let us Stop their very Evil games...... CROUCH, JR. (simultaneous with above) Juice will let you Play some very Evil games....... - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Tue Oct 15 01:23:52 2002 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (Kaarlo Moran) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:23:52 -0400 Subject: Magic Daggers and Gleams of Triumph In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45361 >Hmmmm...if it was a *magic* dagger, could it be part of the explanation of the mysterious "gleam of triumph" in Dumbledore's eyes when he learns that Wormtail used it to take Harry's blood for Voldemort's regeneration potion? > ~Phyllis > who is always looking for a plausible explanation for > Dumbledore's "gleam of triumph," but hasn't found one she likes yet< > If I may say, I?m not sure about that magic dagger theory. Dumbledore seemed to have his gleam just after Harry mentioned that it was his blood that was used. Which means that (maybe) some magical property that?s in it, perhaps added by Lily Potter just prior to dying at Voldemort?s hands. Who knows? Maybe she transferred some of her life force to Harry and somehow that got into Voldemort during the resurrection? I?m just shooting in the dark, since we have to wait till August 2003 for the next book (sigh).... -K-lo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From seraphim2313 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 03:34:34 2002 From: seraphim2313 at yahoo.com (Shana Ziolko) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hogwarts Student Population In-Reply-To: <1034574198.3913.95617.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021015033434.24894.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45362 Hallo, um, sorry if this sounds really off. After reading Gulplum's message, I thought of something: GulPlum wrote: >>>>>I'm not sure if that was clear, but to put it another way, assuming there are, say, 20 second-year pupils in each of Gryffindor and Hyfflepuff, rather than have the 20 Herbology pupils made up of one set of 10 Gryffindors and 10 Hufflepuffs in one lesson and another 10 Gs and 10 Hs in another, it would have been easier to simply have all 20 Gryffindors in one class, and the 20 Hufflepuffs in another. The one piece of canon we have which is unequivocal about the number of boys in Harry's year is that each year, his dorm in the tower is "the [X] years' boys' dorm" implying that the five boys in Harry's dorm are all the Gryffindors for each year. Now, whether or not we're allowed to extrapolate figures from this is debatable, but any variations would be unlikely to be particularly huge. After all, after four years at Hogwarts, nobody, least of all the boys in Harry's dorm, have commented that there are very few of them compared to the other Houses/years. For instance, when I was at school, the year above mine had at least 50% more pupils than the average for the others, and this was an incessant source of comment.<<<<<< I also came from a school where my class was the largest, to the point that they had to divide us. So perhaps no one is mentioning size that much. Since Harry and the other older students were born during the major Vold crisis, perhaps less children were born during that time, being that dark, trust no one type feeling in the wizard world. But once Harry was born and defeated Vold the first time around, perhaps there was a 'baby boom' effect, much like the one in the U.S. after WWII. Or maybe the class sizes at hogwarts are due to schedule. Like in PoA, Hermione has a different schedule then Harry and Ron, even though she does have the time turner, so maybe the first and second year students also have varied schedules that allow them to have class with other houses. Or maybe I'm just really off the ticket. Anywho. -SJZ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From rotsiepots at yahoo.com.au Tue Oct 15 03:38:57 2002 From: rotsiepots at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rotsie=20Pots?=) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:38:57 +1000 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Not so very clever Albus... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021015033857.25631.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45363 --- errolowl wrote: >But how long would it have held out? Don't you think >that as voldmort got more frustrated and angry, a >terrified Qurirrel would have panicked? He'd the >stone to his master, but get a desperate case of >"Oh my God! I've GOT to find the stone, or I'm >dead!!" & couldn't he have then found it? I believe the only way the Stone could be retrieved from the Mirror was if someone wanted to find the Stone but not use it. Hence even if Quirrell became increasingly agitated with his inability to retrieve the Stone, he wouldn't have been able to find it unless he suddenly had a change of heart and repented his desire to find it in the first place (that was a bit wordy). So, basically, no he couldn't have found it no matter how panicked he became about finding it. If/when he gave up trying to find it, then perhaps, Quirrell could have retrieved the Stone, but not before. --Rotsie http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger for SMS - Always be connected to your Messenger Friends From the.gremlin at verizon.net Tue Oct 15 03:54:15 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 03:54:15 -0000 Subject: About Florence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45364 Melody wrote: > Acire. You are being too hard on yourself. Obviously, you have a > nice way of saying everything so well that all ties together into nice > little bows. We can't refute you...or at least that is what I tell > myself when I manage to kill threads. :) Thanks for the cheering-up. I even tried to start my own thread, and it didn't even get off the ground. No one responded to it. I don't even remember what it was about. > If Florence is approximately the same age as Snape, it is possible > that she could be Mrs. Longbottum and had Neville. Well, that's the other thing. We don't know how old Florence was. Bertha Jorkins was older than Sirius, who is the same age as Snape. Is it possible for Bertha to at least know two people who are younger than she is? Unless Snape was well-known for his curses (he probably was), she would know his name, and mabe he accidently yelled out the name of his kissing partner when he was hexing her. It is Snape's age > group that has children that are Harry's age. So we can deduce that > Mrs. Longbottum is *at least* close to Snape's age...assuming she did > not become pregnant at Hogwarts. ;) > > She, of course, could be older. Frank Longbottum is well respected in > the auror world and well liked. As established in the community as > they were, I wonder if they are not at least ten years older than > Snape. While it is possible that they established such a reputation > quickly, I doubt it is plausible. Well, James and Lily were so well-known at...what? 22 years old? Considering that I am of the opinion that James and Lily were ::gasp:: not perfect, I think it's plausible that other young couples became well-known quickly. Especially since this seemed to be the height of V-Mort's reign of terror, I would think that as soom as people got out of school, eg. the Potters, the Longbottoms (if they were the same age) and anyone else in that age group, would immediately choose a profession where they could help fight against V-Mort. I'm sure that if they made significant advances, or helped out in a really great way, they could easily and quickly become likable and well-known. > > So either Mr. and Mrs. Longbottum are little social climbers or they > had Neville kind of late in life. I think they were social climbers. -Acire, who should be studying for her midterms. From awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu Tue Oct 15 04:05:24 2002 From: awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:05:24 -0700 Subject: Skeeter/Figg References: <1034628919.3303.24409.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004a01c27400$17157760$6ed1df80@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 45365 Brian pondered: > How about the presence of a convicted murderer/Azkaban > escapee/unregistered animagi in the Hogwarts hospital wing > conspiring with the Headmaster and a former Death Eater to embark > upon a course of action contrary to the stated wishes of the > Minister of Magic? Rita Skeeter was there at the time! Well, I think that RS heard everything, and knows all about Snape being a death eater (well, I guess that's not news), as well as Sirius being both a trusted friend of Dumbledore *and* an unregisterd animagus, and heard all of the argument between Fudge and Dumbledore and the group's subsequent decision to mobilize against Voldemort and gain secret support in the ministry. But, this also exactly why I think the truth about Sirius will be revealed in the OoP (besides the fact that it will have been a secret long enough!) is because as soon as Rita were to be human again, she would break the story. I mean, Hermione told her she would keep her as a beetle in the jar for a year, and see if after that she could stop dragging people through the mud (obvoiusly not verbatim!). Well, once Hermy let her out, she wouldn't have to lie to tell all that good stuff that would just rock the wizarding world- so I think, by the time she's allowed to regain human form, the truth will already have come out and there'll be no need for her to report it. Who knows, maybe she'll even become an ally of the group- since she's an unregistered animagus, and a tiny one at that, she'll be able to find out all kinds of useful stuff during DE meetings or even if she just happened to tag along with Draco when he left school on holiday. :) As for the thread about the witch in GoF, I think I did think maybe it was Arabella Figg- but then dismissed that thought, for two reasons: 1, that Harry would recognize her (of course, I thought she may be taking on another form on Privet Drive so of course he wouldn't recognize her true form), but then 2, I thought he would recognize her voice. Because lots of people have distinctive voices, and if Harry's spent at least a few days per year with her for the past 10 or 11 years, he might. But who knows, perhaps an ageing potion does something to your voice as well- because I do think that's why the aging potion was introduced, in addition to the tournament. I mean, in CoS, they introduce the Polyjuice Potion but truthfully, I didn't pay much attention to it until it was in GoF, so maybe that's what's going on here. I do think Figg is in her late 30's or 40's. Since that homework break was a little longer than anticipated- I should get back to it! Aesha From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Tue Oct 15 07:20:56 2002 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 07:20:56 -0000 Subject: Not so very clever Albus... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45366 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "errolowl" wrote: > > > Dicentra in message 45230: > >>"Dumbledore is often amused by his own > cleverness, as seen in PP/PS when he confides to Harry that hiding the > Stone in Erised was one of his better ideas." << > > Yes, old Albus is frequently amused by his own cleverness. In fact > he frequently seems to go out of his way to complicate things so he > can solve them cleverly...though those solutions are debatable. > > Yes, yes, I know, we've all been through this a thousand times, but > I'm in just the sort of bad mood to grumble about this a little. > First lets start with hiding the stone in the mirror of Erised. > yes, that works perfectly when the baddies need to get at the stone > doesn't it? Voldmort would just see himself drinking the exlir, > just as Quirrel saw himself presenting it to his master. But how > long would it have held out? Don't you think that as voldmort got > more frustrated and angry, a terrified Qurirrel would have > panicked? He'd no longer be so taken by the glory of presenting the > stone to his master, but get a desperate case of "Oh my God! I've > GOT to find the stone, or I'm dead!!". And once that was his > overriding desire, couldn't he have then found it? > Looks to me like that mirror was just a short term barrier, > designed to delay voldemort till Dumbledore could get there....and > what if Albus couldn't get back in time? Was there really no more > foolproof way? At least it turned out right that time.... > Of course there is a better way, if we let things be a bit more complicated. Lets say that Dumbledore feels Harry needs some hands-on experiance fighting LV, but wants to try to protect him as much as possible while doing so. So he makes sure the defences are rigged to cater to Ron, Hermione, and Harry's strengths (plus one for Neville Hermione solved). Next, when both Quirrellmort & Harry have all the information, he stages his absence from Hogwarts by borrowing a ministry owl and sending a letter to himself, and sending out Minerva and Severus to make sure Quirrel and Harry know he's gone. After leaving conspicuously, he then ducks down to where the mirror is being kept, and hides in a secret chamber there. When LV and Harry are struggling, he ducks in the room (note that Harry didn't see him arrive), and helps out. This theory presumes that Quirrell/Voldemort was waiting for Dumbledore to leave, or at least were taking advantage of the opportunity, but, given the time frame, this seems a reasonable assumption. Anyways, just speculation, but I like the idea of Dumbledore having been thoroughly in control of the situation in SS... --Arcum From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Oct 15 09:31:57 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:31:57 -0000 Subject: Catching Up - MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45367 > Pip wrote: > > > > It simply (ok, complicatedly) argues that there is evidence that > > both Voldemort and Dumbledore are making long term strategic > > plans, (including the famous Flawed Potion) and that the several > references within the book to `spies' or `sources' mean that both > sides are using a network of spies (e.g. Snape), informers (e.g. > Pettigrew), and undercover agents (e.g. Quirrelmort and > Moody/Crouch Jr.). > > bugaloo37 answered: > I can go along with the above statement-but there is one more thing > I would like clarified before I join the bandwagon. When you > say "long term strategic plans"-it makes me wonder how exactly does > Harry fit into this? We don't know. We can't know, in fact, for the time being (unless someone comes along and uncovers some piece of canon we've been overlooking so far). Pip's theory of Spy Games, that evolved with many explanations into MAGIC DISHWASHER, doesn't try to out-guess JKR. We know that Harry is important because Dumbledore has been preparing him, and because Voldemort seems to find him a bother, but so far we haven't yet been told what the plans of each are except by what can be interpreted from the actions of each, and especially we cannot know were Harry fits into it -although, as I've said, he probably fits in *somewhere*, since he gets lots of attention from both sides. > Is he a key element? If so, can he be considered a wild > card at this point? How heavily are Dumbledore's plans relying on > the decisions Harry at least seems to be making for himself? Dumbledore's main plan will probably include Harry making moral decisions of some sort, just as it includes that Sirius won't turn evil or that Snape won't changes sides once more, IMO (maybe some of those *have* been taken into account - we'll have to wait and see). Harry is as much of a wild card as any of the other members of Dumbledore's side (i.e. the Old Gang et co.): Dumbledore won't force them into doing something they don't think they should do. As always, since we don't know what the plans will be (only what the plans, so far, have been), it is difficult to tell what Dumbledore hopes will happen and what he will make happen. > Is Harry being manipulated? If so, how is that being achieved- > through carefully worded guidance or some other tactic? No, Harry is not being manipulated, except through education: Dumbledore is teaching him morals, as well as all those useful spells, but all schools are suposed to do that: apart from the standard lessons, they are suposed to cultivate one's morality. I've said it before, and I'll probably have to repeat it in the future, but Dumbledore, until know, has always allowed his allies to make their own decisions, even if that could mean the end of his plans (if he didn't, he wouldn't be better than Voldemort). > I guess my real > question is this: is the fact the Dumbledore spends so much time > teaching Harry to think for himself part of his long-term plan? I > am afraid I just don't see it how can teaching someone to think for > himself ever be a dependable tactic? > > bugaloo37 It might not be dependable, but it is moral. The other option is to feed Harry the correct answers to questions that Dumbledore doesn't know, or to keep him under closed vigilance and force him into the apropiate actions. Both of those are not only impossible, but also unmoral. So far, Harry has always been given loads of liberty to do whatever he feels is correct (more liberty, in fact, than a student is normally given), and since he has shown to be dependable, Dumbledore can trust him to continue making the right decisions. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who hopes his answers are clear enough: moral questions are always tricky! From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Oct 15 09:49:59 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:49:59 -0000 Subject: About Florence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45368 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > > She, of course, could be older. Frank Longbottum is well respected in > the auror world and well liked. As established in the community as > they were, I wonder if they are not at least ten years older than > Snape. While it is possible that they established such a reputation > quickly, I doubt it is plausible. > > So either Mr. and Mrs. Longbottum are little social climbers or they > had Neville kind of late in life. There xou have a point. But maybe Frank was some years elder as his wife. After all, the married couples couldn't be all in the same year. *g* And it is also possible, that especially aurors, because of the special circumstances (Voldemort) at this time, could very soon be famous and well-liked. Hickengruendler From potter76 at libero.it Tue Oct 15 09:41:17 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:41:17 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: Why Wormatail was made Secreet Keeper Message-ID: <3DABE2BD.000003.47823@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 45369 Here's the quote that yesterday I was not able to provide to support my view that no one made Wormtail Secret Keeper because being an Hufflepuff is believed to be loyal ( BTW, the Sorting Hat gives, as the main characteristic of H, being hard workers -GoF- and 'unafraid of toil' -PS- loyalty and justice and patience are only given once in Ps, so seem to be side- traits' of that House): PoA, ch, 19 "The Servant of LV", p. 271 UK edition Black to Peter " I thought it was the perfect plan ... a bluff ... Voldemort would be sure to come after me, would never dream they'd used a weak, talentless thing like you" I hope this'll help settling the matter. R. From skelkins at attbi.com Tue Oct 15 10:31:59 2002 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:31:59 -0000 Subject: Peter's Unfortunate Crisis of Nerves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45370 Karie wrote: > And, anyway, I still see Peter as brave. Not honorable, not moral, > but certainly brave. Elkins covered the whole thing very well, and > so I won't repeat, but I will say that I actually don't think Peter > cowering around in the Shack was at the bottom all that cowardly, > because I think that Peter was taking the chance that if he cowered > and gibbered, his old friends, his old _protectors_ would balk at > killing him. Oh, I'd love to agree with you, Karie, because I really do so much enjoy Pettigrew's peculiarly anti-stoic brand of pluck, but I think that his nerve failed him in the Shack. If he'd gone for the grovel from the very start, then I might agree with you that what we were seeing there was manipulation, pure and simple. But he didn't. He panicked. He played the waiting game far too long, for one thing: by the time he was forcibly restored to human form, he'd really lost any chance of coming up with a convincing explanation for his behavior. Had he transformed on his own accord at some point earlier in the conversation, then he might have stood a somewhat better chance. Instead, though, he waited too long, and in doing so, he lost the opportunity to frame the discussion on his own terms. If you ask me, he just plain choked. Then he compounded his error by continuing to try to hold to his (ultimately indefensible) story that Sirius Black was a mad fiend out to murder him. And he was profoundly unconvincing, not only because his story just couldn't hold up to any real degree of scrutiny (although that was part of it), but also because his nerves were already shot from the very start. It was his sweating and his stammering and his darty eye movements to the doors and windows that first lead Harry to mistrust him, and I can't imagine that they did much to inspire Remus' confidence either. He made Sirius Black seem trustworthy in comparison, which given that Sirius was doing things like snarling animalistically and grinning maniacally and trying to throttle his own godson at the time is really saying something. We know that Peter did manage to be quite a successful spy in the past. I can only imagine that he *used* to be more than capable of deception. In the Shack, though, he is not a convincing liar. I'd say that his nerve failed him there. Big time. > Peter knew them better than we do, and certainly during their years > together they must have protected him--so it seems entirely > possible that he was counting on their Gryffindor chivalry on > several levels--they wouldn't kill an unarmed, pathetic man, > right? They wouldn't kill him if it wasn't his fault, if James > wouldn't have liked it...No, all in all, I'd have to say that even > if (though) Peter isn't a very strong wizard, his brains were > working quite well... You think? Oh, I don't know. I do agree with you that both his plays for sympathy and his pleas for mercy are fundamentally manipulative. There's something almost embarrassingly blatant (as well as curiously formal) about the way that he supplicates every person in the room in turn. I also think, though, that he was in a quite genuine state of panic in the Shack, and that it had a detrimental effect on his...well, on his performance, shall we say? He wasn't exactly on top grovelling *form,* if you ask me. No one whose brains were really working well, for example, would ever have tried that "he was taking over everywhere...what was there to be gained by refusing him?" justification. That was a serious tactical error, of the kind that only somebody not thinking at all clearly would ever have made. He didn't approach Hermione properly either, in spite of the fact that he'd had over two years as Scabbers to observe her. No, I'd say that he was certainly *trying* to be manipulative in the Shack, but that he wasn't capable of doing a very good job of it -- largely, I think, because he...well, was suffering a rather serious crisis of nerves at the time. -- Elkins (holding up a card reading "6" for Pettigrew's grovelling form in the Shack, but willing to raise that to a "7" to account for his having successfully completed the program) From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Oct 15 11:19:45 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 07:19:45 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: About Florence Message-ID: <14e.15e3a309.2add53d1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45371 Melody: > If Florence is approximately the same age as Snape, it is possible > that she could be Mrs. Longbottum and had Neville. It is Snape's age > group that has children that are Harry's age. So we can deduce that > Mrs. Longbottum is *at least* close to Snape's age...assuming she did > not become pregnant at Hogwarts. ;) > Now that opens up some possibilities.......;-) I want to question the assumption that it is Snape's age group that have children who are Harry's age. The apparently young age of Harry's parents' marriage and parenthood has been commented on many times. We don't actually know if it's the norm (although presumably the Lestranges also married shortly after leaving Hogwarts). We haven't seen many other students' parents, IIRC, only the Weasleys, the Malfoys, Seamus' mother and Amos Diggory. We have no clue as to Mrs Finnigan's age, nor really to Amos Diggory's, although he always sounds rather older, I think. Mind you, so does Percy, so I admit that's a dangerous line of reasoning. When it comes to the Weasleys, I think it's pretty clear that they *are* older since their oldest child is considerably older than Ron. OK, so Ron isn't a first (or as often seems to be the case) an only child. Malfoy, too, despite only having (apparently) one child is also commonly perceived as being older than the MWPP/Snape generation. What it boils down to is that we really don't know *what* the average age of Harry's generation's parents are because we simply aren't told. I tend to agree with your later suggestion that the Longbottoms were rather older. Of course, the other point is that we have no idea *who* it was that was kissing Florence, anyway. It might have been Snape, it's true, but others have thought that Sirius is more of the 'hex now, think later' mentality. Then of course, there's the Barty Crouch variation and the Filch was kissing Florence Norris variation..... For anyone who hasn't read all these, a trawl through the CUPIDSBLUDGER and related theories thread (Post 35144 onwards) is very entertaining. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Tue Oct 15 12:30:49 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:30:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Mrs. Figg Sighting? References: Message-ID: <005401c27446$b235d3c0$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45372 > > Also, I think it's weird that in GoF when Dumbledore tells Sirius to > go to Mrs Figg, that Harry didn't associate the name. AND don't you > think it's strange that she is called MRS Figg? Where is her husband? > And am I just being stupid? :) > > *Rosey* I think Harry is simply too dazed and exhausted at that moment to make connections that would really require some thought afterwards. As for the "Mrs", I read that there used to be a tradition where unmarried women, if they remain unmarried for their whole life, are called "Mrs" rather than "Ms" once they reach senior age. Maybe that's the case here? Of course she could simply be a widow. Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 02/08/2002 From mrflynn6 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 13:38:46 2002 From: mrflynn6 at yahoo.com (mrflynn6) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:38:46 -0000 Subject: Keeper of the Keys? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45373 Perhaps I have missed this somewhere, but what exactly is a "Keeper of the Keys"? Hagrid introduces himself to Harry as this. Is this a British term for something? I am assuming it is the guardian of something other than Harry's vault key. From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Oct 15 13:50:24 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:50:24 EDT Subject: Snape, the TT and Dumbledore's 'amusement' Re: The "face-value" theory of PoA Message-ID: <1ac.a4fb659.2add7720@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45374 Richard: > As I think I previously pointed out, Dumbledore's "amusement" doesn't > really make sense if Snape knows about the Time-Turner. As I see it, > Dumbledore is amused as they enter the Hospital Wing not because Snape > knows how Harry did it, but because never in a month on Sundays would Snape > > be able to work out how Harry did it, *even if Dumbledore gives him a > whacking great clue*! The only valid reason for Dumbeldore to be amused at > that point (unless, as the M.D.ers would have it, the surface text makes > him appear to be sadistic) is that Snape doesn't have a clue what's going > on and has no grounds to be able to work it out. Eloise: Which means that he *is* being sadistic, doesn't it? I'm sorry I haven't been keeping up very well recently and MAGIC DISHWASHER does things to my brain and I've really got very confused as to who's arguing that Dumbledore's amusement is appropriate and who's arguing that it's inconsistent and...........aargh! Just to be clear, although I'm specifically answering Richard's post, I'm also answering other assumptions that are made about this scene and apologise in advance if I appear to attribute ideas to Richard which are not his. Why is Dumbledore amused? Is Snape the focus of his amusement ? *I* have previously pointed out that Dumbledore has other things to be pleased about (but it was in one of those rather 'twee' TBAY posts, Richard. Mm...haven't quite worked out how to respond to that one! ;-) ). He is the only person in the room, aside from Harry and Hermione, who knows exactly what's happened. He is in control and all the other adults are floundering about. Now maybe that's because an evil, sadistic puppet-master. But maybe it's because he's a man who's just found out that a former student and colleauge of whom he'd been fond in the old days and whom he'd believed to have betrayed his friends and everything he stood for, was actually an innocent man. Maybe it has to do with the fact that he's just managed, with the help of Harry and Hermione, to save his life. He has every right in the world to feel elated. He also, as we know from his conversation with Harry at the end of PS/SS, enjoys his own cleverness. In fact, reading it again, I'm not at all sure that canon in any way *specifically* suggests that Dumbledore's amusement is caused primarily by Snape's discomfiture although I agree that it can be read that way. When Fudge, Snape and Dumbledore come in, we are told that Dumbledore alone was calm, even looking as if he was enjoying himself. Can he not be enjoying, as I have suggested, his own cleverness, the fact that he has thwarted Fudge's (yes, and Snape's) attempts to have Sirius Dementor-kissed? He is calm, because he *knows* his plan has worked and he can't be found out. If he is amused, this may be sufficient reason. When he addresses Snape directly, it is first "quietly", then, "calmly". No hint of amusement, just what some of us interpret as the coded message which tells Snape that he knows what has happened and that his loyalty is being called upon. Now granted, as Snape stands seething looking from Fudge to Dumbledore, the latter's eyes are twinkling. But, y'know...that's what Dumbldore's eyes *do*, isn't it? In fact, if they "gleam" we all get worked up about it. We know Dumbledore's enjoying the situation, ergo his eyes twinkle. (I guess Snape's were glittering at the time, but we're not told.) Now, yes, I'm sure that to an extent he may have been amused by Snape's antics. I have argued (not alone) that he takes a paternal view of Snape and not for the first time recently, I shall argue that here he's taking a benevolent, if possibly amused, view of him as a difficult child. You see, where others read cruelty in that twinkle, I read fondness, a "Poor, dear Severus, when will he ever learn?" I'll give you patronising, perhaps, but not deliberate unkindness, But notice that when Snape flounces out of the room, Dumbledore's words to Fudge indicate only understanding of what he's just gone through. Richard: > > As it happens, Dumbledore's first words in that scene are to establish that > > the kids have been locked in the Hospital Wing. Only *then* does he suggest > > that they'd have to be in two places at once to have been able to have > assisted in Sirius's escape. If we're talking "surface reading", it is the > realisation of the *impossibility* of that fact that shuts Snape up, not a > realisation that Dumbledore authorised the use of the Time-Turner. Elosie: Belonging to the *coded message" fraternity, I have to disagree with that. Why risk giving any clue as to how the rescue may have been achieved? Snape was beside himself. In the WW, Time Turners exist. Giving him that clue could easily have propelled him into, 'He's got hold of a Time Turner, somehow!' which could have given the whole game away. Let's face it, Harry's got an invisibility cloak, he had the Marauder's Map, he worked out how to get past all the enchantments guarding the Philosopher's Stone. Snape knows there is at the least this method of being in two places at once; he also puts two and two together very quickly. If there *is* a way of doing it, he'd naturally suspect Potter of finding out the way how. No. I think it was only safe for Dumbledore to say that if he knew both that Snape *would* put two and two together and realise that Dumbledore had authorised it but also that his loyalty would outweigh his fury. In fact Dumbledore needed to prevent Snape from putting two and two together without understanding his own involvement. Snape *could* have thought of the Time Turner possibility on his own, so Dumbledore needed to pre-empt this. Richard: > Snape is said to be looking from Dumbledore to Fudge, *seething*, as if > looking for a way around the conundrum of bi-location, not knowing whether > he should be angry at Dumbledore or Fudge. Dumbledore's statement does not > pacify him in the slightest, it just leaves him speechless. Eloise: Yes, speechless. He can't say anything else without giving the game away and being disloyal to Dumbledore. And why should he be pacified? He has, as Dumb ldore mildly put it, suffered a severe disappointment. He may defer to Dumbledore, but that doesn't mean he likes it. He was desperate to get his revenge on Sirius (for much, much more than the 'Prank') and it's been taken away from him for reasons he doesn't yet understand. No wonder the poor man's speechless. He's caught between the man who would have achieved what he wanted (the disposal of Sirius) and who was about to get him the Order of Merlin, but now thinks he's deranged and the man to whom he's pledged his loyalty, but with whose opinions he sometimes disagrees and who has just done the most inexplicable thing. He can't appeal to either of them. Poor, poor Severus. That's better. Now. Where were we? > Marina: > >So there you have it. Note that this theory does not assume any > >important events or conversations happening "off-screen." If canon > >doesn't say it happened, then it didn't happen. > Richard: > Sorry, as I think I've successfully argued, your explanation implies > off-screen information given to Snape about the Time-Turner. Eloise: But I don't think that's an 'important event or conversation' in the sense of being a very big assumption. Hermione must be a very well-known student, particularly so since most of the teachers teach her! It must have been slightly evident that she was taking more than one class at once. Given the nature of the Time Turner and the regulations governing its use, I would be highly surprised if the entire teaching staff *didn't* know about it, just as Prof Flitwick immediately knew the special circumstances surrounding Harry receiving a broomstick in his first year. When we move on to GoF, we *have* to assume that there have been off-screen conversations, I think. Snape must surely have been filled in on the situation, otherwise, his "What's he doing here?" question when Padfoot transforms in the Hospital Wing is mild in the extreme. Either that or it's an indicator of just how great his loyalty to Dumbledore is. But even given his loyalty, he argues when he disagrees with Dumbledore and if he didn't know about Sirius' innocence, I'm sure he would have said something about his treachery instead of meekly, if reluctantly shaking hands. But for Snape to know about the Time Turner doesn't imply any private conversations, I don't think, just the assumption that the whole of the teaching staff weren't being deliberately kept in the dark about something pretty important. Eloise Who will use her new PRESSURE COOKER with pride, whilst noting that it's too big to fit in the MAGIC DISHWASHER. We sure need that KITCHEN SINK! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ronib at mindspring.com Tue Oct 15 14:03:18 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:03:18 -0000 Subject: small question from TBAY Imperius!Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45375 Melody wrote: > Where does Arthur purposely avoid watching veelas? > > In GoF, Ch 8, when the veelas come onto the field.... > > "I wonder what they've brought," said Mr. Weasley, leaning forward > in his seat. "Aaah!" He suddenly whipped off his glasses and > polished them hurriedly on his robes. "Veela!" ("Veela" in italics > mind you) > > An Imerius!Arthur is aware of his weakness of mind. He would not > want to clear his vision *quickly*, but rather find a way to > distract himself. Arthur seems quite pleased in what he was about > to see. > > And with these freshly polished glasses, Arthur watched the veelas > dance and is not recorded as having any overly-pleased reaction. In > fact we have evidence that he was of sound mind. > > Same book, same chapter: > "Ron, meanwhile, was absentmindedly shredding the shamrocks on his > hat. Mr. Weasley, smiling slightly, leaned over to Ron and tugged > the hat out of his hands." > > After the dance of the vixens, Arthur was clear headed enough to > think of his son and calm him a bit. Sounds like a good father, to > me, who is completely capable of watching six of his own kids and > two of his kids' friends, one of which needs *special* watch. > > But as I said, I don't think small point sinks your ship at all. > > Melody Veronica replies: Okay, this part is not my strength, but I will see if I can do justice to the arguement posed in the orginal idea. We see Arthur take OFF his glasses and clean them, but we never see him put them back on to WATCH the Veela. I believe that Elkins was orginally suggesting that he took his glasses off to avoid watching the Veela, because he knew that he was more vulnerable--for whatever reason. Harry and Ron and the others would have no idea that he was not watching them because they really weren't aware of ANYTHING going on around them at the time. In fast, if he knew everyone was going to be watching the veela, and did not want to, taking off his glasses and shining them would be an excellent cover. It appears as if he is making sure he gets a good view, but in reality he is preventing it. He would have removed his glasses quickly before their 'powers' got a hold on him and he either forgot or changed his mind. That would also explain why he is so clear-headed when he talks to Ron later. He never was looking at them, and so his mind never was . . . distracted, shall we say. I have no proof, of course, but it makes sense if you want it to. =) Veronica From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 15 14:14:30 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:14:30 -0000 Subject: The "face-value" theory of PoA -- now with shiny acronym! In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021015032354.00962100@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45376 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: > > I was nodding with enthusiastic agreement until I got to this bit: > > >(I'm assuming that he [Snape], along with the other teachers, knows about > >the Hermione's time-turner.) > > As I think I previously pointed out, Dumbledore's "amusement" doesn't > really make sense if Snape knows about the Time-Turner. As I see it, > Dumbledore is amused as they enter the Hospital Wing not because Snape > knows how Harry did it, but because never in a month on Sundays would Snape > be able to work out how Harry did it, *even if Dumbledore gives him a > whacking great clue*! The only valid reason for Dumbeldore to be amused at > that point (unless, as the M.D.ers would have it, the surface text makes > him appear to be sadistic) is that Snape doesn't have a clue what's going > on and has no grounds to be able to work it out. > > Despite being very much a non-flag-waver, I'd be happy to display your > PRESSURE COOKER in my kitchen if you'd accept the above provisos.... :-) > One of the nice things about a PRESSURE COOKER is that you can cram a lot of different stuff under its lid, so your proviso is perfectly acceptable even if I don't agree with it. Your interpretation is certainly sensible and fits the known facts. What I can't figure out, though, is how Snape and all the other teachers could avoid knowing about the Time-turner, given that Hermione is scheduled for conflicting classes. For example, we know that Hermione has another class (Arithmancy, I think) against Potions. We also know that Potions is a required class (because Neville tried to drop it and wasn't allowed). So Professor Vector must know perfectly well that Hermione should be in Potions during the time she's in Arithmancy. Other teachers must also be aware of similar conflicts. So unless we assume that no one in the staff room ever, ever talks to Snape (and we know from CoS that he's on friendly enough terms with the rest of the staff), I don't see how Snape could avoid knowing it. Under my interpretation, Dumbledore is amused when he drops the hint to Snape because he knows Snape could've figured it out himself if he was thinking clearly. It's the amusement of a teacher giving a little nudge to a brilliant but flustered student. (He's also amused because he knows that Fudge *won't* figure it out, and that for all his blustering, Snape will get along with the program once he sees what's what.) Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From ronib at mindspring.com Tue Oct 15 14:16:20 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:16:20 -0000 Subject: (non)TBAY: Arthur Weasley With Imperius Curse and Small Craft Advisories In-Reply-To: <01f101c273e7$dc76ad80$66a0cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45377 Richelle wrote: > > Elkins, in her lovely TBAY post, said: > < "It does make sense that some families might be more vulnerable > > to > > the Imperius curse," said Veronica. "After all children of > > alcoholics > > are more likely to be alcoholics. Perhaps there is a gene that > > some > > have that make them less able to fight off that curse. That would > > explain why Ron has a more difficult time with that curse in DADA > > class." > > Okay, I have one problem with this. There's both Barty Crouch Sr > and Jr with the Imperius Curse. It took Jr years to break it, > whereas Sr broke it in a matter of months. > > I believe that is the only place where a father/son were both under > the Imperius curse, albeit at different times and different > people's curse. I am still a bit confused how one maintains an > Imperius curse from miles and miles away. Can the same thing be > true for other curses? The Crucio perhaps? Can you crucio > someone, apparate away, and them still be tortured? > Veronica replies: I can't even begin to guess how you would continue the Imperius curse miles away from someone. That one I will have to chalk up into the Faith column (not the Theory, but just that JKR tells us it can happen, so it can). I'll let someone else take a shot at that. =) As for the Crouch Jr. versus Crouch Sr. and the amount of time that it takes to break off the curse . . . . I think strength of character still has some effect on your ability to withstand Imperius, but I think heredity plays a part, too. To use my analogy of alcoholics, not all children of alcoholic become alcoholics--they just have to be more careful, because (as we understand it), their genes are working against them. Perhaps Mrs. Crouch's genes made Barty Jr. more vulnerable. Or more likely (I don't have my books here at work to find the lines), but doesn't Barty Jr., under the truth potion, say that he was very ill and weakened when he left Azkaban? Didn't he say something like, "One dying person came to visit, and one dying person left," indicating that both he and his mother were extremely ill when they switched places. It makes sense (at least to me) that regardless of your genes, if you are that ill, you *could* be more easily controlled with Imperius. Veronica From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Oct 15 14:26:34 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:26:34 -0000 Subject: The "face-value" theory of PoA -- now with shiny acronym! In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021015032354.00962100@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45378 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: > I was nodding with enthusiastic agreement until I got to this bit: > Quoting Marina: > >(I'm assuming that he [Snape], along with the other teachers, knows about > >the Hermione's time-turner.) > Richard/GulPlum again: >The only valid reason for Dumbeldore to be amused at > that point (unless, as the M.D.ers would have it, the surface text makes him appear to be sadistic) is that Snape doesn't have a clue what's going on and has no grounds to be able to work it out. Marina: > >So there you have it. Note that this theory does not assume anyimportant events or conversations happening "off-screen." If canon doesn't say it happened, then it didn't happen. Richard: > Sorry, as I think I've successfully argued, your explanation implies off-screen information given to Snape about the Time-Turner. > Not at all. Actually, Dumbledore's hint works even if Snape doesn't know about the Time-Turner. All Snape has to know about is Hermione's impossible class schedule, and that was no secret. Hermione's schedule is handed out openly at breakfast in the Great Hall, she roams around the school with extra books for all her classes and openly discusses how many subjects she's taking. Potions is one of the classes that she's doubling, in fact. PoA ch. 7) Actually, though, I'd be really surprised if Snape, as a head of house, isn't aware that Time-turners are available for exceptional students. In fact, I'd wager that the last student to have one was none other than Slytherin extraordinaire Tom Riddle, who would have found it a useful aid to his search for the Chamber. Pippin From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Oct 15 14:45:06 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:45:06 -0000 Subject: To edify or entertain?: the purpose of HP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45379 I hate to get preachy-but here it goes. IMO, the purpose of literature can be broken into two categories: literature that edifies and literature that entertains. Of course, literature can do both and IMO, the very best literature does do both- and does it equally well. The point I am trying to make in regards to HP is this: IMO, JKR is writing a series of book which like all good literature reflects her own personal values. I have read my share of escapist literature- I came away entertained-but not feeling I gained any real insight into the human condition. This literature may have contained elements of mystery-which caused me to think-in order to figure it out- but once the mystery was solved, there was no feeling I had learned anything valuable about myself or humanity in general. Now please keep in mind, this is my opinion regarding what makes some literature more valuable than others. IMO, when I read HP, I gain some insight into the human heart. Sure there are mysteries to solve and they do intrigue me-but IMO, I do not believe that presenting a hard to solve puzzle is all that JKR intended. Theories aside, I am trying to keep my mind and my heart centered on what I see as the purpose of HP-that is to enthrall and enrich the reader's life. bugaloo37-who by the way, loves to solve mysteries From cindysphynx at comcast.net Tue Oct 15 14:46:02 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:46:02 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Operative!Arthur Attacks Auror!Arthur (WAS Re: small question from ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45380 Melody asked: > Where does Arthur purposely avoid watching veelas? Veronica replied: > We see Arthur take OFF his glasses and clean them, but we never >see him put them back on to WATCH the Veela. Veronica further explained: >I believe that Elkins was orginally suggesting that he took his >glasses off to avoid watching the Veela, because he knew that he >was more vulnerable--for whatever reason. There's also this: ********** "Fingers in your ears!" bellowed Mr. Weasley as the veela started to dance in celebration." *************** That said, Melody, this veela thing really isn't the strongest canon out there for Imperius!Arthur (although Captain Veronica is the only one who can properly toss the thing overboard) or for Operative! Arthur. In fact, maybe you are owed a serious explanation for how such a terribly feeble canon wound up in this thread. It's all *Elkins'* fault!!! That's it! *She* suggested it! I didn't want any part of that whole veela thing! I was *helpless*; there was no way to resist Elkins' power! If you want my opinion, *Elkins* is a veela her own self! ;-) OK. Fine then. Attack the veela canon if you must. I will retaliate by taking a wild swing at Auror!Arthur's head. (Yeah, that just rolls right off the tongue, doesn't it? Auror!Arthur, indeed.) See, I object to the idea that Arthur's actions (such as his close ties to Moody) could possibly be explained by Auror!Arthur. If Arthur was once an auror, why on earth would he try to hide that fact? Arthur would just be a former auror who is now in the Muggle Artifacts department. Oh, sure, I get the whole idea that Auror!Arthur depends on Imperius! Arthur for his motivation. The idea, I suppose, is that Auror! Arthur is ashamed of his stint under the Imperius Curse, so he decided to pretend he was never an auror in the first place. But this just doesn't make sense to me. As a general matter, aurors don't hide their occupations. Frank was a popular auror. So isn't Arthur afraid that he'll be walking down the street in the company of his children and someone will walk up and mention something about his auror past? Wouldn't Lucius Malfoy be itching to taunt Arthur and "out" him if it were true? I'm also not convinced that an auror would have to live a life of shame if he were placed under the Imperius Curse and couldn't resist it. Now, Operative!Arthur has none of these problems. He keeps his status an Unspeakable secret because that's what Unspeakables *do!* His kids don't know. Lucius doesn't know. Amos Diggory *might* know. Maybe. But Molly doesn't know. No way. Molly is completely in the dark. Yup, Operative!Arthur has been feeding Molly this cockin' bull line about being in Muggle Artifacts for *years!* Oh, Molly, I've been shunted aside by mean old Fudge because of my affection for muggles, he says. Oh, Molly, there's a little loophole in the law I wrote so I can have a flying car. Oh, Molly, I'm terribly sorry, but Muggle Artifacts doesn't pay anything at all. Oh, Molly, honey, I'm just helping sort out the Moody situation and doing press interviews about the Dark Mark at the QWC in my role as head of the the Muggle Artifacts department. Hey, you wanna know why Arthur is so very fascinated by electricity to the point of having a collection of plugs and batteries? Well, magic disrupts muggle electricity, right? Well, if you're an Unspeakable, you'd really like to be able to sneak around doing magic without muggle lights dimming every time you whip out your wand. So Operative!Arthur is trying to understand electricity so he can find himself a way around that little problem. Yeah. I'm really warming up to Operative!Arthur, but Auror!Arthur is leaving me cold. ;-) Cindy -- wondering where the Auror!Arthur defenders are these days From anakinbester at hotmail.com Tue Oct 15 12:36:38 2002 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:36:38 -0000 Subject: Why Wormatail was made Secreet Keeper In-Reply-To: <3DABE2BD.000003.47823@i3a2c5> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45381 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita" wrote: >( BTW, the Sorting Hat gives, as the main > characteristic of H, being hard workers -GoF- and 'unafraid of toil' -PS- > loyalty and justice and patience are only given once in Ps, so seem to be > side- traits' of that House): I agree with you that those are likely side traits. TO be loyal, you have to be willing to work hard at it. Peter does not seem to be one to work hard at anything. He's consistently chosen the easier (I suppose) way out of situations time e and again. He even took the easy way out of groveling. He could have tried to explain himself better, but I just want for the look pathetic routine (and the keep blaming Sirius bit, which was easier but _really_ stupid as pointed out in another post) Anyway, Peter doesn't seem to be unafraid of toil at all. > PoA, ch, 19 "The Servant of LV", p. 271 UK edition > Black to Peter " I thought it was the perfect plan ... a bluff ... Voldemort > would be sure to come after me, would never dream they'd used a weak, > talentless thing like you" > I hope this'll help settling the matter. Actually for me it doesn't *L* Now I agree, I don't think Peter was made Secret Keeper because he was a Huffelpuff, but I really don't think that's what Sirius was thinking of when he made Peter the SE. Sirius is enraged nearly beyond reason and he's saying things that may or may not be true. There may be some fact to it. Peter may have been the least magically powerful of the four, therefore, he'd seem the least likely to be picked, considering how Wizards seem to judge power and ability and all (by amount of magic it seems). I doubt if Sirius had thought Peter was weak, he would have made him the SE. That would be completely illogical. He'd have to have thought Peter was strong, in some kind of way. Maybe everyone else perceived Peter as weak, yet Sirius thought he had some kind of inner strength or something. I don't know, but if Sirius truly thought that about Peter, then he was a git forever making Peter the Secret Keeper. -Ani From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 12:48:09 2002 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:48:09 -0000 Subject: The "face-value" theory of PoA -- now with shiny acronym! (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45382 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marinafrants" wrote: > In the absence of a master plan, Snape's reactions in PoA have to be > taken at face-value -- that is, we have to assume they are genuine, > and not part of a carefully constructed performance designed to > further a strategic goal. The question then is, do his reactions > make sense in that context, given what we know of the character's > history and psychological makeup from all the books? I believe the > answer is yes. > In keeping with the > kitchen appliance theme of this topic, I hereby dub this theory > PRESSURE COOKER: Presented with Remus' Evil, Snape's Somewhat > Unhinged; Refuses Explanations, Confronts Outrageously Overt > Killers; Embarrassment Results. > > All we need now is for somebody to come up with a Kitchen-Sink > theory, and we'll be all set. > > Marina > rusalka at i.. Thank you and thank you again! I was trying to figure out why as much as I respect MAGIC DISHWASHER as very well thought out theory, I absolutely disagree with it. I realize now that MD interpretation of Snape actions bugs me the most. I hope I am not offending anybody who supports the theory. To me your face value reading of PoA events makes much more sense. I like Snape a lot, but while I view him as a very honourable character, I don't see him as a a very emotionally mature character at this point in the books. I am talking of course about his hate of Sirius and relationship with Harry and Co. I read Snape actions in PoA as actions of the man consumed by hate and revenge and desire to protect Harry at the same time. I think face-value reading supports it. I am not sure whether it is metathinking or not, but I feel that Magic Dishwasher takes from Snape the opportunity for further emotional growth (getting over old grudges :o)) and I like him (and Sirius) too much to agree with this interpretation. Alla From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 15 15:40:16 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:40:16 -0000 Subject: The "face-value" theory of PoA -- now with shiny acronym! (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45383 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "dumbledore11214" wrote: > I am not sure whether it is metathinking or not, but I feel that > Magic Dishwasher takes from Snape the opportunity for further > emotional growth (getting over old grudges :o)) and I like him (and > Sirius) too much to agree with this interpretation. > Alla It is metathinking, but hey, that's peachy! Here at the PRESSURE COOKER kitchen (where we make George wash all the dishes by hand), we consider metathinking to be an honorable and invaluable tool, to be neglected at one's peril. Snape's character arc, and the progression of his relationships with other characters, is part of canon, His handshake with Sirius at the end of GoF foreshadows the likelyhood that the two of them will be foreced to work together and eventually will achieve some level of mutual understanding and acceptance (even though they'll probably despise each other to the end of their days). The impact of such emotional development will be lessened if Snape's displays of irrational hatred in PoA were not genuine. The same thing goes for Snape's developing relationship with Harry. If you take away Snape's actions in PoA, the the only reason Harry has to hate Snape is that Snape is really mean to him and his friends in Potions class. For a kid, this is more than enough reason. But as Harry grows older, and the stakes become higher, classroom taunts are going to start seeming pretty insignificant. The one solid, seemingly insurmountable that blocks any path to understanding between Harry and Snape is Snape's attempt to feed Sirius (and Lupin) to the Dementors. It would be far too easy if the whole thing could be explained away with "oh, he was only pretending." Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Oct 15 15:49:13 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:49:13 -0000 Subject: The "face-value" theory of PoA -- now with shiny acronym! (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45384 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "dumbledore11214" e. > > I read Snape actions in PoA as actions of the man consumed by hate > and revenge and desire to protect Harry at the same time. I think > face-value reading supports it. > > I completely agree with the above statement. This may seem to contradict my previous seeming support for MD- but since reading the PRESSURE COOKER, I am leaning more in THAT direction. In a previous post, someone stated that a major problem they had with MD is its attempt to "redeem" Snape. I tend to agree. IMO, Snape is completely reprehensible-but he does serve a purpose. He obviously takes the protection of Harry seriously-for whatever reason. But I simply cannot see any purpose in his virulent attacks against Harry . The MD has been unable to convince me that these attacks are anything but the end results of a man who is now having to protect the son of someone who he resented. I would like to know: is Snape's horrible treatment of Neville also part of the master-plan? I can see his resentment of Harry-leaking over to Ron and Hermione- but why Neville? I am trying to understand-if ALL of Snape's actions in regards to students, other faculty members,etc., are premeditated to serve some secret purpose. bugaloo37-who tends to find life much simpler when taken at face value and tries to apply this theory to her interpretation of literature From stevebinch at hotmail.com Tue Oct 15 15:06:18 2002 From: stevebinch at hotmail.com (Steve Binch) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:06:18 -0600 Subject: About Florence References: <1034655839.3952.47265.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45385 Acire wrote >Now, for Neville inheriting his mother's talent for herbology, it >has been implied that Lily Potter was good at charms, and James >Potter was good at Transfiguration. However, Harry is good at DADA, >so I don't think Neville would have inherited his mother's talent. >Also, JKR is stressing the "who you become is more important than >what you were born to" point. I know that JKR has made a point that our choices define us, not what we inherit, BUT... I didn't inherit my father's skills, yet I have chosen to follow his footsteps and do what he does for a living as well. Perhaps if Neville's mother was a herbologist, there would be books and plants around the house so he would be familiar with these things. And who's to say that his grandmother wasn't there to help him learn these things as he grew up? Also, do we know approximately how old his grandmother is? If we could determine this, then we would have a good idea of his parents age. -Steve B From abigailnus at yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 16:54:35 2002 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:54:35 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Operative!Arthur Attacks Auror!Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45386 Abigail has been trying to get her cabin on the Imperius!Arthur catamaran just so, a task which has only been hindered by her efforts to install her brand new PRESSURE COOKER at the same time, and the fact that she did perhaps partake of too many Pina Coladas when she came on board. But, damn it, Veronica was so thrilled about them! Her concentration, desperately needed for deciphering instructions which have been translated into English from Chinese by a person obviously born in Finland, is broken by a voice in the hallway. "Yeah. I'm really warming up to Operative!Arthur, but Auror!Arthur is leaving me cold." Abigail sticks her head out and sees that the cabin across the hall from hers seems to have been occupied, there's a shiny brass plaque on the door, it reads: Operative!Arthur We Speak of the Unspeakable Abigail shoots a guilty glance at the door to the Auror!Arthur cabin. She really was going to get a plaque. And a nice potted plant and a bean bag chair for visitors to sit in. Still, there's no reason not to be neighbourly. She knocks on the Operative!Auror cabin door and steps inside. "Abigail!" Cindy says, "I was wondering where the Auror!Arthur defenders were these days!" "Hello Cindy," says Abigail, "Welcome aboard. Nice plaque, by the way. Do you know where I could get one? Cheaply? Bean-bag chairs are a bit pricey, you know." "Bean-bag chairs? Plaques?" Cries Cindy, "Haven't you been paying attention, woman? Operative!Arthur has attacked Auror!Arthur! If you don't leap to your boy's defense he's liable to be thrown overboard!" Abigail gasps, and considers swooning, but Veronica opted for hardwood floors on the catamaran and besides, there's business to attend to. She had heard, of course, from her porthole, Cindy explaining all about Operative!Arthur and thought it a fine theory, well-grounded in canon. And even if it did stem from a rejection of her own pet Auror!Arthur, well, it takes all sorts to fill up a catamaran. This attack come straight out of the blue. "Well?" Cindy demands, "Are you going to counter-attack or just stand there? If Arthur was once an auror, why on earth would he try to hide that fact? Arthur would just be a former auror who is now in the Muggle Artifacts department." Cindy yawns widely. Abigail smirks, "Is that all, Cindy? Haven't you read the original Auror!Arthur manifesto ( At least, original as far as I can recall )? Auror!Arthur is firmly grounded in Elkins' assertion that the Wizarding World is in deep denial about the years of Voldemort's reign of terror. That the taboo on mentioning those times extends well past the whole He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named thing. It is not considered at all proper to discuss Voldemort or anything having to do with him. I admit that Imperius!Arthur lends further credence to Arthur's silence in the intervening years, but he's hardly *necessary*." Abigail digs around in her pockets, and finds the much folded and unfolded copy of her original extension of the Auror!Arthur manifesto (#37136 & #37179), and begins to read: "If Arthur cherished his home as a sanctuary from the ugliness of his work, he might never say anything about it in front of his children. Or he might have made it clear after [Voldemort's] fall that he wouldn't brook any discussion of his previous job with the younger children, and Bill and Charlie would have caught the hint." "In fact," Abigail continue, "In the little bit that we've seen on the older Weasly children, much was made of Mad-Eye Moody and his closeness with Arthur, and Charlie even says: 'He's retired, used to work at the ministry, ... I met him once when Dad took me into work with him.'" "If Arthur was an Auror, what was he doing brining his young son to work with him?" Demands Cindy. Abigail resists the urge to stamp her foot. She was hoping to slide that one past Cindy. "I haven't quite puzzled that out yet," she admits, "but there could be any number of reasons - Molly could have been sick or otherwise indisposed. And besides," she says belligerently, "If Arthur was an Unspeakable, he would have even less reason to bring Charlie to work with him." "I'll let that go for now" says Cindy, "But this still doesn't make sense to me. As a general matter, aurors don't hide their occupations. Frank was a popular auror." "Yes he was, and how do we know that he was?" Responds Abigail, "Because Dumbledore tells Harry, after Harry hears Frank's name *for the very first time* in a 14-year-old recording. No one else, not even Neville, has ever mentioned Frank Longbottom or his occupation. And as for his popularity, Dumbledore never states that Frank was a popular *Auror*, just that he and his wife were popular people. That fact needn't have anthing to do with Frank's job, which might not even have been common knowledge. The only living acknowledged Auror we have ever encountered is Moody, who is a paranoid old recluse - hardly the social norm. Think about it, if being an Auror was something that one mentioned, don't you think Neville, or someone who knew his family, would have let it slip?" "In fact" Abigail continues, "this brings to the only serious flaw that I can see in Operative!Arthur, canon-wise, that is. You see, we have seen Unspeakables before, and while I don't have the exact passage open in front of me," Cindy glances pointedly at the cluttered Auror!Arthur cabin, "I do seem to remember that when the Unspeakables were introduced during the QWC, not only did everybody seem to know what (if not who) they were, but they avoided them as well. Captain Veronica has offered Arthur's wide network of connections within the MoM as corroborating proof for Operative! Arthur, and she posited that Arthur's popularity is also a function of those connections, but from our only glimpse of Unspeakables, the reverse seems to be true." "You said this was your only *canon-base* objection to Operative! Arthur" Cindy says, in a quiet-yet-dangerous voice. Abigail eyes Cindy's shiny paddle warily, and calculates her distance to the door. In all fairness, she probably wouldn't normally dare to make this last observation, but she did have all those Pina Coladas. "I just don't think Operative!Arthur is very... bangy." "WHAT?!" Cindy explodes, turning several shades of purple, "Why, it is the epitome of Banginess! And it focuses on the upcoming battle instead of the past!" "How?" Counter Abigail, who really can't believe she's doing this. There must have been something in the Pina Coladas, normally she'd be paddling for the shore by now. "We know nothing about Unspeakables except that they work for the Department of Myseteries, which tells us absolutely nothing. Are they the Wizard Police? That job seems to be covered by the magical Enforcers who arrested Sirius. In fact, right now, Unspeakables read like throwaway neatness. By your own standards, Cindy, they belong on the GARBAGESCOW." Cindy is momentarily rendered speechless, which allows Abigail to continue. "And if it's the upcoming battle that you're thinking of, well, there is already a group of wizards whose job it is to counter Dark Magic." Abigail pauses for dramatic effect. "The Aurors, Cindy, they are the one's whose skills will be necessary in the new fight against Voldemort, and at the crucial moment, Arthur will be revealed as one of them. Think about it, pleasant, polite, bumbling Arthur Weasly, emerging from the between the smoke wafting from the remains of several DEs he's just bested. Think of that, and tell me it isn't Bangy." Cindy, glacing surrepetitiously to see if there's a FEATHERBOA hidden amongst Abigail's clothes, is having none of it. That pause for dramatic effect was a tactical error of grave proportions. Having resumed her composure, she lifts her paddle high above her head to strike down Auror!Arthur once and for all. The alchoholic fumes powering Abigail finally give out, and she collapses into a corner, trapped. "Wait! Wait!" She cries, "Can't we all just get along? Why do Auror! Arthur and Operative!Arthur have to be mutually exclusive?" Cindy lowers her paddle, exasperated, "What is it with you catamaran people and mutual exclusivity?" She asks. "Have you no Proper Theorists Pride? First Veronica tries to adapt Imperius!Arthur to accomodate Operative!Arthur, and now this. Well, I'm not buying it. There's no way Arthur can be an Auror *and* and Unspeakable. That's just Rambo!Arthur." "True." Abigail admits. "But your theory isn't called Unspeakable! Arthur, is it? It's Operative!Arthur, and with good reason, because I still believe that Unspeakables have little or nothing to do with the fight against Dark Wizards. But what if Arthur was an Auror during Voldemort's first reign of terror. The war ends and suddenly he's out of a job. Sure, Moody tries to argue for constant vigilance, but you know what those yokels at the MoM are like - no problem is so big that you can't bury your head in the sand and ignore it. So Moody gets pensioned off and Arthur is shunted to some boring desk job. But is that enough for him? Does he truly believe that the dark times are over? Is he really ready for the quiet life? No! And so he turns to..." "No!" Cindy exclaims. "You can't mean..." "Yes!" Cries Abigail exuberently. "The Dark Arts Defense League! Arthur has been a secret operative of theirs since the fall! He leaves all the boring, getting sugar clamps off noses work to the other wizard who works with him, while he keeps his ear to the ground. That's how he learns all about Sirius Black, that's why he has so many contacts in the ministry. And when the time comes, Arthur Weasley is going to prod some serious buttock." The Operative!Arthur cabin is silent for a long time. Abigail glances nervously at Cindy, who is still blocking her way to the door. Finally, Cindy lowers her paddle and says, thoughfully. "I'll have to think about this, but... the idea has merit." "Yes, merit!" Abigail jumps up and impulsively hugs Cindy. "Oh, this is the dawning of a glorious new day! A day when a wolf will lie with a lamb, and Past-Auror!Arthur and Present-Operative!Arthur will run, hand-in-hand, through the flowering meadows!" "You're hugging me." Cindy points out. "Right, right." Abigail quickly disengages and, seeing her path cleared by a pensive Cindy, makes a beeline for the door. "I can see that you have a lot to think about, and if you want to talk I'm just across the hall." She's outside by now, and within sight of the safety of her own cluttered cabin, when she remembers her original reason for dropping by. She turns back. "Where did you say you got that plaque, Cindy?" She asks, just as the door slams in her face. Abigail Who has never written a TBAY post before, and may not do so again - they're so much work! And who has indeed just moved - into a rented apartment near university where there is still no Internet access. And who has been writing this post at a station at the computer farm on campus, all the while terribly afraid of having to explain herself to anyone who looked over her shoulder. From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Oct 15 17:01:24 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:01:24 -0000 Subject: The "face-value" theory of PoA -- now with shiny acronym! (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45387 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marinafrants" wrote: > > If you take away Snape's actions in PoA, the the only reason Harry has to hate Snape is that Snape is really mean to him and his friends in Potions class. For a kid, this is more than enough reason. But as > Harry grows older, and the stakes become higher, classroom taunts are going to start seeming pretty insignificant. The remarks that insult Harry's father- IMO, will never lose their power to hurt. When the insults come from another child-I agree ,they will lose their punch over time. But when an adult, takes these kinds of shots at you, IMO, they are harder to overcome. I guess what I am saying here is this: I believe that when the time truly comes for Harry to work with Snape he will have more to overcome than the SS episode. bugaloo37 From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Oct 15 18:40:29 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 18:40:29 -0000 Subject: Snape's insults was The "face-value" theory of PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45388 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marinafrants" wrote: > > > > If you take away Snape's actions in PoA, the the only reason Harry has to hate Snape is that Snape is really mean to him and his friends in Potions class. For a kid, this is more than enough reason. But as Harry grows older, and the stakes become higher, classroom taunts are going to start seeming pretty insignificant. > Bugaloo: > The remarks that insult Harry's father- IMO, will never lose their > power to hurt. When the insults come from another child-I > agree ,they will lose their punch over time. But when an adult, > takes these kinds of shots at you, IMO, they are harder to overcome. > I guess what I am saying here is this: I believe that when the time truly comes for Harry to work with Snape he will have more to overcome than the SS episode. > What enrages Harry is that he can't make Snape stop insulting him or his parents. But once Harry realizes that he can't control Snape's insults but can control how upset he gets about them, he will be able to acknowledge that Snape has a different point of view and leave it at that. I would be disappointed if Harry never learns this. Pippin From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Oct 15 19:06:13 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:06:13 -0000 Subject: Snape's insults was The "face-value" theory of PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45389 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > What enrages Harry is that he can't make Snape stop insulting > him or his parents. But once Harry realizes that he can't control > Snape's insults but can control how upset he gets about them, > he will be able to acknowledge that Snape has a different point > of view and leave it at that. I would be disappointed if Harry never learns this. > I too expect Harry's tolerance to improve with age. IMO, he has already shown remarkable maturity in some ways-while on the other hand, still exhibiting childish behavior in other areas. After all what can we expect, he is still a child. IMO, insulting someone's parents is not a matter of opinion-it's taking cheap shots. I guess what I am saying here is: it will be hard for Harry to take the high road -when it is a "so-called" adult who is dishing out the insults. I also agree with the idea that learning to control your reactions is a major step on the road to maturity-one that some adults never take. bugaloo37-who thinks its time for Snape to grow up From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Oct 15 19:13:50 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:13:50 -0000 Subject: Catching up with MAGIC DISHWASHER Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45390 GreyWolf said: >>I covered the danger of Vapour!Voldemort in both my previous post (45279) and in this one (as well as probably a dozen others). I repeat enough as it is, so I'm not going to go through it again.<< Hmmm, I have the feeling you're losing patience with me. Let me entertain you, then, by following Marina's lead and stating what I think is the plain text version of Voldemort's exile. Then I'll point out where MD diverges from this interpretation, and why I think the MD version of events is illogical. I am not arguing that a Vapormort such as you describe would not be dangerous. I am arguing that Dumbledore would not have any logical reason to know or believe that any such invulnerable Vapormort existed. First the plain text, which I would call KITCHEN SINK except that I can't think of an acronym. When he attacked baby Harry, Voldemort was reduced to a formless, powerless entity. Not knowing what he had become, and therefore not knowing what his vulnerabilities were, Voldemort fled to a distant forest. He discovered that he had no powers except that he could possess the minds of other creatures. He continued to hide, knowing that the Aurors were searching for him, and that they have powers against the Undead. (Canon, cf Mrytle's run-in with the Ministry over stalking Olive Hornby.) Voldemort's only hope was that a follower would return and restore him to a body of his own, but his followers abandoned him. There never were more than a few true believers, and they were in Azkaban. The rest lost faith after he was beaten by a small child. Desperate and on the verge of dissolution after ten years of painful semi-existence, Voldemort ensnared Quirrell and tried to steal the Stone, but Dumbledore and Harry defeated him, so he fled once more. After PS/SS, Dumbledore traced Voldemort to Albania, but did not attempt to attack him. Albania is a foreign land where Dumbledore has little influence, and vague references to vampires imply that they aren't exactly keen on fighting the Dark Forces over there. Besides destroying Voldemort is not Dumbledore's primary objective. Dumbledore's primary objective is to make sure that Harry Potter grows up to do...well, whatever it is that the "last Potter" is capable of doing. In contrast MD posits that: Vapor!Voldemort was not suffering and or on the verge of dissolution. He was invulnerable to attack and his followers were in fact loyal and in touch with him all through his exile. All he lacked was a physcial form and the ability to use a wand. Dumbledore's agents, rather than Death Eater cowardice, kept everyone but Pettigrew from reaching him, though Quirrell slipped through the net. MD assumes that Dumbledore's primary objective is to destroy Voldemort before he gains physical immortality, that Voldemort is invulnerable in spirit form and Dumbledore knows it, and that this is why he must use Pettigrew to induce him to take a mortal body again, instead of atttacking him in his spirit form. All of this is necessary to explain why Dumbledore would consider it a wise course to let Voldemort regain his powers even briefly. Whew! I hope I got that right. But my question is, why would Dumbledore even think that Vapor!Voldemort is invulnerable to attack? Because he can't be killed? Neither can Myrtle. What canon justification is there for supposing that Vapormort was invulnerable? There seems to be some circular reasoning at work here: Dumbledore didn't attack Vapormort because Vapormort was invulnerable, and we know that Vapormort was invulnerable because Dumbledore didn't attack him. Pippin From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 15 19:30:00 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:30:00 -0000 Subject: Skeeter In-Reply-To: <004a01c27400$17157760$6ed1df80@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45391 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Aesha Williams" wrote: > Brian pondered: > > > How about the presence of a convicted murderer/Azkaban > > escapee/unregistered animagi in the Hogwarts hospital wing > > conspiring with the Headmaster and a former Death Eater to embark > > upon a course of action contrary to the stated wishes of the > > Minister of Magic? Rita Skeeter was there at the time! > > Well, I think that RS heard everything, and knows all about Snape being > a death eater (well, I guess that's not news), as well as Sirius being both > a trusted friend of Dumbledore *and* an unregisterd animagus, and heard all > of the argument between Fudge and Dumbledore and the group's subsequent > decision to mobilize against Voldemort and gain secret support in the > ministry. But, this also exactly why I think the truth about Sirius will be > revealed in the OoP (besides the fact that it will have been a secret long > enough!) is because as soon as Rita were to be human again, she would break > the story. I mean, Hermione told her she would keep her as a beetle in the > jar for a year, and see if after that she could stop dragging people through > the mud (obvoiusly not verbatim!). Well, once Hermy let her out, she > wouldn't have to lie to tell all that good stuff that would just rock the > wizarding world- so I think, by the time she's allowed to regain human form, > the truth will already have come out Now me: Actually the quote from Hermione is : "I've told her that I'll let her out when we get back to London" so she's not got to stay in the jar for a year. I agree with Brian, I think that what Rita saw/ overheard is a time bomb waiting to go off. I think that Rita wouldn't have taken being imprisoned by a school girl very well,(understatement of the year I think!). Now I don't think that she'll want to use it in a way to help Voldemorts side - its just something about the way she said to Hermione "I know things about Bagman that would make your hair curl" (or something along those lines) (Gof) that made me feel that while she's not a nice person she's not a Voldemort supporter either - in fact I got the impression from that scene that she quite detested him (but maybe that's just me). However she doesn't strike me as a person that likes weak people (just the impression I got from the whole of GoF no quotes here) and I'd say that Fudge is a weak person (he's basically just buried his head in the sand at the end of GoF) she hasn't shown much respect for the ministry in her articles either. So basically it's down to whether she wants to help Fudge out - because that's what she would be doing if she released these details in order to get one up on Hermione by hurting her friends (also theres the fame aspect of it too), (she'd also be helping Voldemort with his anti Harry/Dumbledore propaganda to)or whether she wants to keep quite (for whatever morals she's got and for the reasons above). If she does want to publish it I don't think the fact that she's an unregistered animagis is going to be a problem ? I can she her doing a deal with Fudge if she does choose this road (you give me an animagi registration and I'll help you out with your problems concerning Dumbledore, Back, Harry etc). The basic problem is what would suit her needs the most (it seems that she does what's best for her) and at the moment the coins up in the air as to what side she will choose but I don't think with seen the last of her Michelle From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 19:31:06 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:31:06 -0000 Subject: Task 3 point of view with popcorn. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45392 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > Phyllis first stated: > >>what troubles me is why Dumbledore would allow the third task > to proceed at *night* within a *20 foot high hedge*, where no one > could see what was going on inside ...edited... << > > Pip!Squeak replied: > >>>I think Dumbledore was fooled ...edited... . With loyal > wizards patrolling the entrances and exits, no one could get in > the maze to harm Harry. A rejigged Portkey never occurred to > him...<<< > > Melody replied: > To add to what Pip said...the maze was on the Quidditch field. All > the judges (which includes Dumbledore), students, parents, and other > teachers (i.e. Snape) were in the stands, which are raised from the > ground originally for better view of Quidditch, but come in handy to > have a bird's-eye-view of a very tall maze. ...edited... > > Melody bboy_mn: I'm with Melody here. The goal hoops are 50ft high. The stands are raised to give everyone a good view of the game. That would imply sloped bleachers rising from between 30ft and 50ft with the 'top box' between 50ft and 60ft (just my best guess. I'm sure World cup was bigger.). Possibly as much as a 30ft to 70ft slope of seats. So people in the maze would have certainly been in view at least part of the time. Also, we are never given the spectator's point of view. We don't know what happened outside the maze. It's possible that there was a magic bubble with their name floating over each contestant, giving the spectators an indication of each contestants location. It could even give a limited commentary like 'Harry meets Sphinx' or 'Harry meet upside down charm'. Also, remember that the maze went silent as soon as Harry entered it, so if there was a running commentary, he couldn't hear it. Since he couldn't hear it, neither could we. I agree that it would have been very boring with nothing to do for an hour or two but look at some hedges. As far as the second task, I haven't figured that one out. Floating magic name bubbles would serve no purpose because the spectators had no idea where the objective was; no correlation between contestant location and the location he was trying to reach. I have trouble fantasizing any way that they could have had a running commentary during that task. Maybe Bagman entertained everyone with Quidditch stories for his glory days while they all waited. Could have made fortune selling snacks and ice pumpkin juice to all those bored spectators. Speaking of snacks, do you think wizards eat popcorn? Sorry, just a thought that can to me. bboy_mn From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Oct 15 19:46:27 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:46:27 -0000 Subject: Catching up with MAGIC DISHWASHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45393 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > > But my question is, why would Dumbledore even think that > Vapor!Voldemort is invulnerable to attack? Because he can't be > killed? Neither can Myrtle. What canon justification is there for > supposing that Vapormort was invulnerable? What would be the point of attacking Voldemort if not to kill him? IMO, nothing short of complete inihilation will stop Voldemort. I think it would take much more to stop Voldemort than it did to stop Myrtle. What do we think Vapormort is really made of? Is he a soul in search of a body? According to Hagrid's definition of being alive- Voldemort had not been "alive" for some time, even before the AK backfired. IMO, Dumbledore and Hagrid also believe that the soul is indestructable and as long as its floating around out there it cannot be completely stopped. Was the WW including Dumbledore and Hagrid, aware that Voldemort was "experimenting" with the concept of immortality? -and that these experiments could have added to his indestructibility in vapor form? This idea is probably the only part of MD I do agree with. IMO, Dumbledore does consider Vapormort a realistic threat to Harry-why else create all the protection? Can we say that Dumbledore is certain of this threat? IMO, no. But apparently, he does consider it a possibility and decided to rule on the side of caution. bugaloo37 From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 19:17:13 2002 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:17:13 -0000 Subject: Snape's insults was The "face-value" theory of PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45394 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > > > What enrages Harry is that he can't make Snape stop insulting > him or his parents. But once Harry realizes that he can't control > Snape's insults but can control how upset he gets about them, > he will be able to acknowledge that Snape has a different point > of view and leave it at that. I would be disappointed if Harry never > learns this. > > > Pippin Absolutely, Harry will have to mature in his dealings with Snape, but I think it is a given (to me at least) that he will and he already did quite a bit in GoF. Children eventually grow up. But I would be just as dissappointed if by the end of the books Snape would not learn that insulting the parents of your orphan student may not be the best way of teaching this student. Harry is growing up both physically and emotionally. Does Snape? I really hope that he will. Alla From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Tue Oct 15 20:17:20 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 21:17:20 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape, the TT and Dumbledore's 'amusement' Re: The "face-value" theory of PoA In-Reply-To: <1ac.a4fb659.2add7720@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021015194024.0096b4a0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45395 At 09:50 15/10/02 -0400, Eloise wrote: >Just to be clear, although I'm specifically answering Richard's post, I'm >also answering other assumptions that are made about this scene and apologise >in advance if I appear to attribute ideas to Richard which are not his. Eloise, you're quite safe (this time). :-) Whilst I've not previously expressed some of the arguments you presented, it all fits in with and represents my opinions exactly. Or, to paraphrase something you said and to use a phrase I had meant to use earlier in this conversation, it's not Snape himself who causes Dumbledore's amusement, but the situation in general. Specifically with reference to the "Sadist!Dumbledore" accusation, I would note that the Infirmary scene is entirely of Snape's making. Had Dumbledore engineered it, he *would* have been a sadist, if only because he forces one of his senior members of staff to make a fool of himself in front of his least favourite pupils. As it happens, he deals with a ranting Snape calmly and rationally, even going as far as to tell him how Sirius's escape was engineered. Talking of which... >No. I think it was only safe for Dumbledore to say that if he knew both that >Snape *would* put two and two together and realise that Dumbledore had >authorised it but also that his loyalty would outweigh his fury. In fact >Dumbledore needed to prevent Snape from putting two and two together >without understanding his own involvement. Snape *could* have thought of >the Time Turner possibility on his own, so Dumbledore needed to pre-empt this. OK, I'm prepared to go half way and accept the possibility that Snape knew about the Time-Turner (canon isn't definitive on the subject, so it is all about possibility and plausibility rather than established fact) if you're willing to accept the possibility that he didn't. :-) As Marina has said, it's not really important to PRESSURE COOKER either way. I only raised this as an issue because Marina went to some lengths to explain why it was important to her that Snape knew. As you pointed out, Dumbledore revels in his cleverness. He also places a large importance on truthfulness, so whichever way one reads Snape's factual knowledge, the central element here is that Dumbledore is telling him how the deed was done. Whether or not Snape already knew Hermione had the T-T, he could easily find out (as, indeed, could Fudge, each in his own way), so as has been suggested, Dumbledore is basically covering all his bases (urgh! I just used an American sporting metaphor!) :-) so should Snape and/or Fudge make the necessary connections, he's saying very strongly that he knew about it and approved of the T-T's use; if Snape and/or Fudge should ever want to blame the kids, they'd have to blame him too. >Hermione must be a very well-known student, particularly so since most of >the teachers teach her! It must have been slightly evident that she was >taking more than one class at once. Given the nature of the Time Turner >and the regulations governing its use, I would be highly surprised if the >entire teaching staff *didn't* know about it, just as Prof Flitwick >immediately knew the special circumstances surrounding Harry receiving a >broomstick in his first year. Harry's broomstick was designed to be used in public and was a specific suspension of standard Hogwarts rules. It was necessary that all staff knew about it (or even were involved in the decision to give it to him) in order to stave off any suspicion of favouritism, as its only use was for the glory of one House's Qudditch team rather than for a particular pupil's special educational needs (although I'm sure that the way McGonagall sold the teachers on the idea of giving Harry the broom was because he was clearly a gifted flyer and deserved every chance to use quality euipment). Hermione's Time-Turner was meant to be used in secret and the only people who knew about it were Dumbledore (Headmaster) and McGonagall (Hermione's Head of House). A while back, I suggested in another discussion that it would have been dramatically better for Dumbledore to have been the only one to know about it (it would have made more sense of his insistence on secrecy when the duplicate Harry & Hermione are sent off). However, the only person who knows every detail of Hermione's timetable would be her Head of House and thus it makes sense for McGonagall to know. Having thought about it, it would have been implausible for her not to. As for the other teachers, I'm not so sure. They're all very busy and Snape in particular also has his own House to worry about - he doesn't have time to bother about the details of Hermione's timetable. All he'd care about is that she turn up for Potions on time. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, now eyeing that PRESSURE COOKER with some added interest. :-) From petra.delisser at saunalahti.fi Tue Oct 15 19:47:09 2002 From: petra.delisser at saunalahti.fi (brinforest) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:47:09 -0000 Subject: About Florence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45396 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "hickengruendler" wrote: > I've read many of the old Florence theories, and I haven't found this > one. But I haven't read any single post, so maybe I just missed it, > and it was already mentioned. > > I think that Florence is the later Mrs Longbottom, Neville's mother. Yes! That sounds good! Ok, here's my insignificant input to both this and the LOLLIPOPS theory (please note that I bear no can(n)on or other artillery): in place of Snape, try Wormtail. How about Wormtail doing the kissing Florence and hexing Bertha? Or, on that other theory, how about Wormtail being the one desperately in love with Lily - I could see that as a reason for betraying James..? And a reason for why V was willing to let Lily live... Wormtail whined for her to be saved and given to him, eww! So, wouldn't this lead us to LOLLIPOPP.. ?(Shameless, I know, very sorry!) I thought of these possibilities because I have a feeling that there's a lot more Wormtail did back in the day that we still don't know about. Brin From bess_va at lycos.com Tue Oct 15 20:02:58 2002 From: bess_va at lycos.com (bess_va2000) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:02:58 -0000 Subject: Skeeter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45397 Before we tease out what she might do and say, we have to figure out *what* she saw and heard. We don't know *when* she arrived on the window-ledge. In the best of all possible worlds, RitaBeetle only saw a very touching scene between Mrs. Weasley comforting Harry. We don't know if she arrived in time to see Sirius change, or the dark mark on Snape's arm...She will be furious, but we don't know what information she has. yours, Bess (first post in a long while) --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "mitchbailey82" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Aesha Williams" wrote: > > Brian pondered: > > Well, I think that RS heard everything > From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 20:35:19 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:35:19 -0000 Subject: (non)TBAY: Arthur Weasley With Imperius Curse and Small Craft Advisories In-Reply-To: <01f101c273e7$dc76ad80$66a0cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45398 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: Richelle asked: > Okay, I have one problem with this. There's both Barty Crouch Sr > and Jr with the Imperius Curse. It took Jr years to break it, > whereas Sr broke it in a matter of months. > > ...edited... > > Richelle > bboy_mn adds: Let's not forget the circumstances of those two Imperius Curses. Barty Crouch Jr was under the constant daily care of his father who could re-enforce/re-apply the Imperius Curse as well as other curses as needed to maintain control of B.C.Jr. B.C.Jr. only finally broke completely free when he was taken out of a very controlled subdued environment and put into a very uncontrolled and very stimulating environment. Barty Crouch Sr was under the somewhat unattentive care of Wormtail until he escaped. Even after having been away from Wormtail's influence for an extended period of time, he was still boardline psychotic when Harry found him. In general, I see Imperius as being a type of magical hypnosis with a bit of telepathy thrown in. They hypnosis makes people act in general way that favor the caster of the curse. For more specific modifications and commands, telepathy comes into play. And I have to assume that there are a variety of things that can affect the effectiveness of either one of these. bboy_mn From mi_shell16 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 15 20:51:08 2002 From: mi_shell16 at hotmail.com (theresnothingtoit) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:51:08 -0000 Subject: The true depth of Snape's hatred for Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45399 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "atrocity.geo" wrote: > Oh, are they brothers? Those sound like a pair > of names from one family rather than 2 seperate names..." I love this theory. I put up a post a while back listing the similaritys of the two characters. Both aid Harry but he is unaware of Snape but wants the help of Sirius. Both have strong emotional conections to the Potter line. I have no doubt that they are both extremly intelegent but both manage to loose it completely with each other. And, if the Sirius fans don't mind me adding, both look a bit similar. > At first I was rolling my eyes, then it struck me...what if, on some > level...step siblings perhaps...Snape and Black WERE > connected and theres some huge understory here that is just > waiting to explode My favorite theory on the whole Snape vs Sirius debate is that they were swaped at birth. Sirius Snape and Severus Black just roles off the tounge, does'nt it! I also have a sneaking suspision that Snapes animagi form is a big dog of some sort. It would make a nice symetery if Remus, Sirius and Severus were all to run around after the big V one moonlit night. >...then again, I could just be thinking about this > too much > I don't think that is possible. Theresnothingtoit (who forgot to load her can(n)on before she left for University :( ) From nithya_rachel at hotmail.com Tue Oct 15 20:54:13 2002 From: nithya_rachel at hotmail.com (errolowl) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:54:13 -0000 Subject: Not so very clever Albus... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45400 About the cleverness of using the mirror of Erised, I wrote: >>But how long would it have held out? Don't you think that as voldmort got more frustrated and angry, a terrified Qurirrel would have panicked? He'd no longer be so taken by the glory of presenting the stone to his master, but get a desperate case of "Oh my God! I've GOT to find the stone, or I'm dead!!". And once that was his overriding desire, couldn't he have then found it?<< To which Rotsie replied: >>I believe the only way the Stone could be retrieved from the Mirror was if someone wanted to find the Stone but not use it. Hence even if Quirrell became increasingly agitated with his inability to retrieve the Stone, he wouldn't have been able to find it unless he suddenly had a change of heart and repented his desire to find it in the first place (that was a bit wordy). So, basically, no he couldn't have found it no matter how panicked he became about finding it. If/when he gave up trying to find it, then perhaps, Quirrell could have retrieved the Stone, but not before. << Me again: Oh Rotsie! The mirror shows "nothing more or nothing less than the deepest, most desperate desires of our heart". Quirrel never had the desperate desire to *use* the stone- he just saw himself presenting it to his master. That was his most desperate desire just then...the approval of his master when he fulfilled the task he'd been trying to accomplish for almost a year. But imagine Voldmorts reaction as he was thwarted ? Quirrel would then be desperately afraid for his life. And I would imagine he'd latch on to his only mode of survival- find that stone as soon as possible. When his most desperate desire became that of *finding* the stone ? we'll he'd have found it,much as Harry did, and no repenting of initial desire would be necessary. Unless of course, he totally lost his mind and focused on "I need to *live*" instead of "I've *got* to find that stone". It's Possible, but I give Quirrel more credit than that. Or unless it was all a trick, and Harry didn't get the stone through the mirror either. Acrum's all-merely-practice theory could indicate that Dumbledore just conjured it into Harry's pocket and let him know through the mirror...just, of course, to complicate things and make it a little more dangerous. as Acrum puts it: >> Of course there is a better way, if we let things be a bit more complicated. Lets say that Dumbledore feels Harry needs some hands-on experiance fighting LV, but wants to try to protect him as much as possible while doing so. So he makes sure the defences are rigged to cater to Ron, Hermione, and Harry's strengths (plus one for Neville Hermione solved). Next, when both Quirrellmort & Harry have all the information, he stages his absence from Hogwarts by borrowing a ministry owl and sending a letter to himself, and sending out Minerva and Severus to make sure Quirrel and Harry know he's gone. After leaving conspicuously, he then ducks down to where the mirror is being kept, and hides in a secret chamber there. When LV and Harry are struggling, he ducks in the room (note that Harry didn't see him arrive), and helps out. This theory presumes that Quirrell/Voldemort was waiting for Dumbledore to leave, or at least were taking advantage of the opportunity, but, given the time frame, this seems a reasonable assumption. Anyways, just speculation, but I like the idea of Dumbledore having been thoroughly in control of the situation in SS<< But I DON'T! I Don't! The whole thing would tend to present Harry as insignificant in the story (oh, if he hadn't tried to be so brave and come in to fight Snape/ Voldmort, no big deal ? Albus was there anyway).. .. And it makes Dumbledore too arrogant to be liked! How dare he toy with other peoples fears like that? This goes beyond the toying-with-Snape issue,cause here he'd be coldly manipulating Harry. Where's the ethics in that scenario? Talk about inconsistency! Dumbledore the gentle wise manipulator is one thing ? Dumbledore the coldly calculating manipulator, quite another!.. In fact, this sounds suspiciously like MAGIC DISHWASHER with Dumbledore's primary aim being to train Harry undercover (never mind that Harry has feelings and a right to his own decisions)? not fight Voldmort. (Is this the plain text that Pippin calls the KITCHEN SINK?). I dont think KITCHEN SINK means to make Dumbledore this Arrogant though... Errol, who hopes that the books do end up as "Harry Potter and.." instead of "Dumbledore and.." From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 15 21:11:12 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 21:11:12 -0000 Subject: The "face-value" theory of PoA -- now with shiny acronym! (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45401 Brilliant analysis, Marina! I freely admit that it's going to be a swine to fight against, because `face-value' readings are always are However (flinging strict canonism to the winds, since you said that was OK): --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marinafrants" wrote: > In the absence of a master plan, Snape's reactions in PoA have to > be taken at face-value -- that is, we have to assume they are > genuine,and not part of a carefully constructed performance > designed to further a strategic goal. The question then is, do > make sense in that context, given what we know of the character's > his reactions history and psychological makeup from all the > books? I believe the answer is yes. > > Let's go over what happens, shall we? The whole thing begins when > Snape brings the Wolfsbane potion to Lupin's office only to find > that Lupin isn't there. As Snape explains at the beginning of Ch. > 19 of PoA, he then sees the Marauder's Map on the desk, and it > shows Lupin running toward the Shrieking Shack. This confirms the > suspicions Snape has been nursing all year: "I've told the > headmaster again and again that you're helping your old friend > Black into the castle, Lupin, and here's proof." (Pg. 358, US > paperback edition) No problem here. [Apart from the lack of master-plan of course :-) ] DISHWASHER would argue about Snape's *aims* at this point, but agree about his actions. Lupin is certainly not a co-partner in DISHWASHER, and Snape is certainly suspicious of him, whether Dumbledore is or not. > This is a rare moment for Snape: for once, his duty > (protect the school from a dangerous maniac) leads him in the same > direction as his desire (get revenge on Black and Lupin, and prove > to Dumbledore that he's been right about them all along.) So > Snape rushes out of the castle and heads for the Whomping Willow, > where he finds Harry's cloak. (Time-traveling Harry and Hermione > actually see him do it.) Again, no problem. Snape's desire for revenge on Black (and Lupin) is accepted in the original post. It is Snape's hatred of the child *Harry* that may be for tactical purposes; DISHWASHER assumes that Snape loathed James Potter, hated Lupin, and would quite cheerfully feed Black to the Dementors if only he wasn't under orders > > The cloak tells him that Harry (and, almost certainly, Ron and > Hermione) are in the Shack with Black and Lupin. This creates a > complication: there are students in danger, children he has a duty > to protect, even if they are dunderheads. So he can't just rush > through the door and blast everything in sight, he has to be > careful. Snape puts on the cloak, sneaks into the Shack to see > what's what, and finds Black and Lupin befuddling the children >with a pack of apalling lies. So he reveals himself and confronts > Black and Lupin. > > At this point, Snape is in a very precarious position. He's >facing two powerful evil wizards, one of whom is likely to turn > into a bloodthirsty monster at any moment. He's outnumbered, and > responsible for the safety of three ungrateful brats So he ties up *both* of the powerful evil wizards, conjures up two stretchers, and tells the kids to stop messing about, and help him get Lupin and Black back to Hogwarts. No? Drat we were getting on so well ;-) Wandering into motivations, rather than actions, why doesn't he do this Marina? He allows himself to be, as you say below, argued with, distracted, and got in the way of, by three annoying brats when he has at his wandtip a spell he's just used on Lupin, and which would give him a bit of breathing space to deal firmly with the brats. In a face value reading, we also have to accept that Snape ties up Lupin at this point because Lupin annoys him. It does not say in canon that Snape ties up Lupin because Lupin (as every other character insists on forgetting in this scene) is a werewolf who hasn't taken his potion, and it's a full moon. Good wizard, bad wizard, washing dishes by hand or by magic, Lupin is just plain dangerous at this point - but canon does not *say* this is why Snape ties him up. Black, apparently, despite having blown up an entire street, murdering twelve innocent people and being all round evil [from Snape's pov], is not dangerous enough to warrant being tied up, but can be held at [I cheerfully admit a potentially deadly] wandpoint - where a moments inattention while Snape is arguing with the kids could result in Black deciding that attacking Snape could just be worth the risk. Nope, it's a face value reading. Snape covers Black with his wand because well, he just does, that's all. > who, instead of > discretely making themselves scarce, keep arguing with him, > distracting him, and generally getting in the way, no matter how > often he tells them to shut up. And then, to add injury to insult, > the brats go and knock him unconscious. Yes, indeedy, being knocked unconcious *was* insulting wasn't it? After all he'd said to them, too - about feeding Black to the dementors, about feeding Lupin to the dementors, about feeding drat, there isn't anybody else left to feed to the dementors, lets start insulting Harry, instead. And then Harry's dead parents. Gosh, if you read Snape's lines at face value, you might almost think Snape *wants* to make Harry lose his temper Which is exactly what DISHWASHER argues. [grin]. I will pass over in silence the Trio's remarkable duelling ability, since in a face value reading it is completely obvious that three thirteen year olds with very little practice in duelling can defeat an adult wizard trained in duelling. (Snape's inability to move quickly enough is probably an example of paralysis dramaticus, as Pippin would say). Besides, Snape was rather occupied at the time ? he'd forgotten to tie up Black, after all. > > Unfortunately, he's unconscious long enough to miss all the visual > proof of Pettigrew's existence and Sirius' innocence. Pity, that. ;-) > > He wakes up outside. Lupin is gone, Black and the dunderheads are > lying around unconsious. Here is Snape's chance to carry out his > earlier threat and call the Dementors in for Sirius. But now that > there's no immediate danger, Snape can afford to think a little more > clearly, and he knows perfectly well that Dumbledore wouldn't > approve of him handing over an unconscious prisoner to be Kissed. > Dumbledore hates the Dementors, after all. Plus, Dementors aren't > always easily controllable. Who's to say that once they're done > with Black, they won't go for one of the kids as an after-dinner > snack? Or Snape himself? By bringing Black in alive, Snape can > live up to Dumbledore's standards, eliminate unnecessary risk, and > the end result will still be the same; Black will only be kissed a > little later. So Snape conjures up some stretchers and floats > everyone back to the castle. (Again, time-traveling Harry and > Hermione actually see him do this.) Ah, another problem with the face-value reading. Which you've dealt with very well ? giving a plausible motivation for Snape which does account for the embarrassing fact that his behaviour when he thinks Harry is unconscious and therefore *not* observing him is different from his behaviour when he thinks Harry *is or may be* observing him. Yup, that's fine. He screams his head off in the Shack, and in the Hospital later, but in this particular moment he is perfectly calm, in control, and able to consider the consequences of his actions. [ To be fair, he is pretty calm at the beginning of the Hospital scene, before Black's escape. ] Take them back to Dumbledore, good idea. Pity he didn't have it earlier, when he was not tying Black up ? the Trio would have agreed to that like a shot [grin]. Oh, Black actually *suggested* going back to the castle, didn't he? Even said he'd go quietly. Ah. Still, as you say, Snape's calmed down by now, he's sure to change his mind about Black's idea... > > At this point, Snape is sitting pretty. (Well, as pretty as Snape > ever gets, anyhow, which isn't very. ) Black's been captured, > Lupin has proven himself untrustworthy, Harry and friends owe him > their lives, and Fudge is ready to pin the Order of Merlin on > him. Life is grand... and then it all falls apart. Black > disappears, and Snape knows, he *knows,* dammit, that Potter was > behind it, but he's too angry to immediately figure out how. >(I'm assuming that he, along with the other teachers, knows about > Hermione's time-turner.) It's at that point that he loses it and > starts his infamous "you pesky kids" rant, and really, who can > blame him? I certainly wouldn't ? it's an entirely plausible reaction in a face value reading. It's Dumbledore's reaction I have the problem with, not Snape's. [I do have a problem with the way Snape, who has spent the last three books apparently trying to get Harry expelled, is so extraordinarily tentative when faced with someone [Fudge] who may well have the power to *insist* Harry be expelled. However, it is not yet canon that the MoM does have that power , so we'll ignore that objection.] > So he stands there ranting and raving, until Dumbledore makes his > remark about Harry and Hermione being "in two places at once," and > it's at that point that the penny drops. Note that once Dumbledore > says this, the fight goes out of Snape immediately. Sorry, Marina, but Snape shuts up the second Dumbledore says `That will do,Severus' ? there is a dash in Snape's dialogue which indicates that Dumbledore stops him in mid-flow. By the time Dumbledore talks about Harry and Hermione having been `in two places at once', Snape has *already* been silent for about eight lines of dialogue. Snape may be seething at the `two places at once' crack, but he has, in fact, shut up the moment his headmaster gave him a direct order to do so. A point about some of the previous dialogue, since I remember Richard saying that it is Fudge who says `Severus ? be reasonable ?` If you go through Fudge's dialogue in this Chapter, and in Chapter 21, you will find that Fudge addresses Snape as `Snape', or in extreme exasperation, `man' or `fellow'. He never calls him *Severus*. Only *Dumbledore* in this scene calls Snape by his given name. Giving the dialogue before the door bursts open to Fudge is an easy mistake to make, because it is not attributed to either Dumbledore or Fudge. [I suspect this is deliberate, and that JKR wants the reader to make exactly the assumption Richard makes. 'When this gets out - ' sounds a lot more Fudge-ish than Dumbledore-ish ]. It is interesting dialogue, once you realise it's Dumbledore's ? because in a face-value reading Dumbledore is not only `amused' at Snape, he is taunting him, and actually lying to him. The line is: 'He must have Disapparated, Severus, we should have left somebody in the room with him. When this gets out ? `. This is Dumbledore speaking. Dumbledore who knows perfectly well that Black didn't Disapparate, and that he himself just arranged his escape. Dumbledore who in a face-value reading of all the texts, told Harry in PS/SS that he `will not, of course, lie ' > No more > yelling, no more trying to convince anybody. He stands there for > a few moments, looking from Fudge to Dumbledore, then abruptly >turns and leaves. Why? Because Dumbledore's words clue him not > only on how Black's rescue was done, but also on the fact that >*Dumbledore was in on it.* At that point, Snape is stuck. He > understands that no matter how much he argues, Dumbledore is not > going to back him up on this one. And when it comes right down to > it, Dumbledore is the man in charge. So Snape does the only thing > left to him and retreats from the field. (And vents his > frustration the next day forcing Lupin's resignation.) Which, by the way, he does brutally, efficiently, and apparently without any histrionics. No screaming that `Lupin must go'. He just does it, in a way that, in a face-value reading, effectively check- mates Dumbledore. But, in this same face value reading, he can't work out an equally efficient method of getting Harry expelled. Not even for Taking Without Owner's Consent a flying Ford Anglia > > So there you have it. Note that this theory does not assume any > important events or conversations happening "off-screen." If > canondoesn't say it happened, then it didn't happen. In keeping > with the kitchen appliance theme of this topic, I hereby dub this > theory PRESSURE COOKER: Presented with Remus' Evil, Snape's > SomewhatUnhinged; Refuses Explanations, Confronts Outrageously > Overt Killers; Embarrassment Results. > > All we need now is for somebody to come up with a Kitchen-Sink > theory, and we'll be all set. > Marina > rusalka at i... I did try to think of an acronym, but I'm truly terrible at them Pip [In a later post you said about Snape: It would be far too easy if the whole thing could be explained away with "oh, he was only pretending." Far too *easy*? I wish! [grin] ] From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue Oct 15 21:31:30 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 21:31:30 -0000 Subject: TBAY - Crouch Sr. as Tragic Hero Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45402 "Sirius is dead sexy! JKR said it herself!" cries one sailor. "Sirius? Good Lord, you have to be joking!" cries another. "Severus Snape's the man!" "Withdraw that right now," cries the first sailor. "I WILL NOT!" "Name the time and the place." "Theory Beach. By the dock. Seven o'clock." "An awful waste of time," says an observer. "When everyone knows Lupin's the one to crush on..." "I have a bit of a thing for Arthur Weasley," says Elkins, who is readjusting the deck chairs on the Imperio'ed Catamaran. "And Cindy expressed a wish for a little hanky-panky with Fudge, once upon a time." "For purely mercenary reasons," says Cindy cooly, who is engaged in scuffing up the deck. "My heart belongs to Igor Karkaroff and Alastor Moody in equal proportions." Eileen opens her mouth to speak. "NO!!!!!!!!" scream Cindy and Elkins. "WE DO NOT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT YOUR THING FOR BARTY CROUCH SR.!" "Really?" says Eileen. "Well, not really," begins Cindy. "It's quite amusing, actually," says Elkins. "You grow all defensive, though," says Cindy. "Pretending we're making it all up," says Elkins. "You know what you told Cindy and me." "That you were hurt by our unfounded allegations that you had it bad for Crouch," answers Cindy. "After all, you said it right there on the list, in front of God and the 4000 lurkers and everyone. You even requested an acronym for it. So you really can't blame us if we needle you for that, can you?"(1) "But I'm a SYCOPHANT, Elkins. I can't take needling." "Yes you can," says Cindy. "You have to learn to be tough. To suck things up. Like Barty." "Like Barty," says Eileen dreamily. "Oh no," says Elkins. "Here we go again." * * * * * * * * How on earth did a nice girl like myself end up with an acronym like C.R.A.B.C.U.S.T.A.R.D.? It's a long story. I suppose the real answer is that one should never surf Inish Alley for one's amusement. If one does, one is likely to find some rather nasty things. B.A.B.E.M.E.I.S.T.E.R. , for example. I believe it runs "Brilliant Actor Barty: Evil Man Easily, Infinitely Sexier Than Ex-Riddle." My jaw dropped. I didn't like Barty Crouch Jr. back then. I had yet to be taught by Elkins that serving an evil Overlord, torturing the Longbottoms, killing your father, ensnaring Harry Potter, and plotting general death and destruction for the world is only a sympathetic feature of adolescent rebellion. "What is the world coming to?" I asked. "BABEMEISTER indeed! And his poor father... does he get an acronym? No. Ungrateful brat!" I picked up GoF, and said, "I am going to get Crouch Sr. an acronym if I die doing it. Let's find evidence for sexiness. It might be a stretch but here's to it!" The rest is history. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/37476 Suffice it to say that I found very good evidence. I became quite enamoured of the tough and steely Head of International Magical Co-operation, to tell the truth. Not enamoured to the point of blindness. I can still go all Solzhenitsyn on him when the situation demands it. ----------------- "You didn't mention CRABCUSTARD," says Cindy. "I'm getting there," says Eileen, beginning to blush. "When I requested an acronym, I never could have imagined CRABCUSTARD. Classy, Rich, Ambitious, Bold: Crouch's Unsung Sexiness Tempts All Raunchy Damsels. I nearly fainted." "Yeeesssss," says Elkins, "there is something a bit, um, well, *raunchy* about that one, isn't there? Can't say why, precisely. It's somehow just a very unsavory acronym." (2) "It took me quite a while to say C.R.A.B.C.U.S.T.A.R.D. without blood rushing into my cheeks. And then when I had got used to that, you and Cindy...." "Don't cry," says Cindy. "I'm warning you." "Why don't you like Barty Crouch Sr.? Why are you unmoved by everything I say? Isn't it obvious that the text invites us to sympathize with Crouch?" "No," says Cindy bluntly. "It is to me!" wails Eileen. "Even before I decided that Crouch was definitely sexy, I knew that. I knew it the moment I finally put GoF down somewhere in the state of Idaho en route to Seattle." "If you knew it," says Cindy. "How come we don't?" "That's a very good question. I've been wondering a long time. What is it in the text that makes me like Crouch Sr. and doesn't seem to affect you at all?" ----------------------------------- Not much has been written about Crouch Sr. on the list. He's not a favourite character of listies. He gets a few mentions on "Least Favourite Characters" lists, but that's about it. For instance, the Chapter Discussions of "The Madness of Mr. Crouch," "Padfoot Returns," and "The Pensieve" (all Crouch-heavy chapters) featured no questions about Crouch, and the discussion generated was limited. However, I found one gem of a post by CMC (Post 11177): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/11177 "The Madness of Mr. Crouch - Shakespearian Connections" Reading it, everything fell into place. I knew why I liked Crouch Sr. To me, Crouch seems to be obviously set up as a tragic hero. Let's examine him on the Tragic Quiz all right? ------------------------------- "There's a tragic hero quiz?" asks Cindy. "Well, I'm going to steal a lovely little summary I found on some professor's website when I did a search on tragic heroes. Here it is courtesy of Dr. Smith, Kentucky State University. http://www.kysu.edu/artsscience/ENG411/tragic%20hero.htm Noble Stature - Check Tragic Flaw - Check Free Choice - Check The Punishment Exceeds the Crime - Check Increased Awareness - Check Produces Catharsis - Check for me, X-mark for Cindy." "Very nice but what does that list mean?" asks Cindy. "Those are the traditional characteristics of tragic heroes. Do you argue them?" "I may not, but you COULD explain them in relation to Barty Crouch," says Cindy in annoyed voice. ------------------------------- Noble Stature - The tragic hero does not start down in the dumps. Crouch is tipped to be next Minister for Magic. He comes of an old, pureblooded, and probably very rich family. He is popular, good-looking, well educated, talented. He has to all outside appearances a perfect family. His namesake son received 12 OWLs and appears to be every bit as brilliant as his brilliant father. Nobility in tragedy also refers to virtue, however, and Crouch has that as well going for him. Tragic heroes do terrible things and Crouch does terrible things, but they have a lot of things going for them as well. Crouch is on the good side. He fights against Voldemort and protects people against him. He does this at great risk to himself. Does anyone want to think about what Voldemort would have done to Crouch had he triumphed? What he did in the little time he had Crouch at his disposal? Imperius isn't the Unforgivable Curse that is known to leave people insane, fwiw. Besides this, Crouch has a sense of honour. As Elkins has noted, he gives Karkaroff his word, and releases him when it would have been much easier to throw him back to the dementors as Moody advises. Tragic Flaw - What is Crouch's tragic flaw? I don't think it was not getting home early enough from the office, whatever Sirius might say. That line has always struck me as hilarious, considering that for almost 10 months of the year, Crouch Sr. could have got home early from the office any day, and then what? Barty Jr. was at Hogwarts, for heaven's sakes! No, the key to Crouch's character (and I'm sure Sirius would ultimatley agree) can be found in PS/SS. "Those cunning folk use any means // To achieve their ends." Before GoF, that ethic is limited to the bad guys. GoF's moral complexity stems from the fact that Crouch Sr. is introduced to employ that ethic on the good side. What is the moral problem of using any means to achieve one's ends? I am not a theologian or philosopher, but I remember one very concise explanation. "Human beings are ends not means." This can be related to Crouch quite well. It covers both his authorization of the Unforgivable Curses on suspects and his relationship to his son, two aspects of his character which the text obviously links but which never seemed linked to me before. Charis Julia writes in the ever-so-brilliant Message 37769: "Which is also where I see Barty Sr setting off wrong with his son from the very beginning . Jr could not have been instilled with such rigid ideas of Good and Evil as his father proudly exhibits. Crouch probably just delivered the lecture and skipped the explanation. He would not have seen it as necessary? his son should do what he says simply because he says it. Unfortunately however this left Barty Jr not only resentful of his father's iron fist but also sadly susceptible to Voldemort's "There is no good and evil?only power and those too weak to seek it" persuasive little speech." I see here the tragic flaw asserting itself. The belief that people should do as he disposed him, that he did not have the responsibility to treat them as people first and foremost. This shows up in all his actions, down to his final dismissal of Winky. I've never believed Barty Jr. that his father didn't love him. (It seems to me like the sort of thing any immature teenager might say.) I would be hard pressed to believe that there was no emotional bond between Winky and him. But Barty Crouch Sr. did not let love (any of the four loves) dictate his relationships with others. He used people and therein lies his downfall. Free Choice - It is important that a tragic hero (at least the modern tragic hero, I suppose Oedipus had no choice in the matter) fall on account of his own free choice. Fate or chance can conspire against him, but in the end he must destroy himself. Remember Macbeth in this regard. He did not have to follow the dictates of the witches, when push comes to shove, but he did. Crouch Sr. chooses his downfall at several points throughout the story. First and perhaps most seriously, he chooses to authorize the Unforgivable Curses on suspects. Then, there is his "I Have No Son!" which leads thematically to his rejection and destruction at the hands of his son. He then chooses to flout the law by rescuing his son from Azkaban and putting him under the Imperius curse. At last, he dismisses Winky, the only protection he would have had against Voldemort. The Punishment Exceeds the Crime - The tragic hero always gets more than he deserves. This may not mean exactly that he only does X and he gets punished enough for X and Y. It generally means that he gets more than anyone deserves. Crouch qualifies here. To start off tamely, he loses his power and reputation. He loses his family, in different manners, his wife, his son, and Winky. He is placed under Imperius by Voldemort and forced to carry out Voldemort's scheme to kill Harry and countless others. He is rejected by his son, who finally murders him. What Voldemort did to him in the mean time is a not-so-pleasant topic of speculation. As I said before, insanity does not seem to be a common result of Imperius... Whatever the case is there, he spent the last months of his life physically and spiritually alone, tormented by his own choices, as well as Voldemort, Pettigrew, and Barty Jr. Have you ever tried to imagine the final scene between him and his son? I always back away from it. Elkins once explained that she tries to believe that Barty Crouch Jr. was unconscious when he was Kissed, but that she doesn't really believe it. It's too horrible to think of, she said, and I concur with her. Yet, I have a similar reaction to this scene. I have tried to convince myself that it was done quickly, and that Crouch didn't realize what was happening, that he was fluently conversing with Weatherby at the time. But I can't really believe that. And I don't want to think about what really happened. Increased Awareness - The tragic hero needs to understand how things went wrong, how he went wrong. " "I... escaped .. . must warn ... must tell... see Dumbledore ... my fault... all my fault... Bertha ... dead ... all my fault. .. my son ... my fault... tell Dumbledore ... Harry Potter ... the Dark Lord ... stronger ... Harry Potter ..." Yep, I think Crouch qualifies. Catharsis - I suppose we've come back to the whole "Redemption Scene" question here. I think there can be no doubt that "The Madness of Mr. Crouch" reads on the surface as a redemption scene. Cindy has attempted to argue that Crouch is really just cleverly pretending to be redeemed. No way to refute that, I suppose. However, taking the text as it stands, it seems to me a perfect example of catharsis. Tragic but uplifting that in the end he comes to an understanding of his life. -------------------------------- "And there we are," says Eileen looking about. "Why I like Barty Crouch Sr. I've said in the past that Crouch Sr. reminded me of Brutus (not the one who killed Caesar, but an ancestor), condemning his own sons to death. So Porphyria sent me a lovely portrait of the Crouch family off-list which I would like to share with you all:" http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/david/brutus.jpg "EWWWWWWWWWW!" says Cindy. "Those Ancient Romans were twisted!" Elkins, who has been starting at her shoes, looks up with interest. "So you think Brutus is the model for Crouch Sr.?" she asks. "To some extent. I also cited Julius Caesar's "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion," in relation to his dismissal of Winky." Elkins nods. "But I think there's another non-Roman model. Shakespeare's King Lear: How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is To have a thankless child!" "Crouch wasn't sentimental like Lear," says Elkins with a thin smile. "No. Crouch isn't Lear. But he's very like Lear, isn't he? A Lear without Cordelia or Kent." "How about Winky?" asks Elkins. "Oh my goodness! It fits. Winky, the only person loyal to him, is banished just as Cordelia and Kent, if for a different reason. And wandering out of the Forbidden Forest. Can one possibly not detect the Immortal Bard here? And you know, King Lear is my favourite of Shakespeare's plays. The dark, depressing one. The play about parricide and fratricide etc. Whatever it is that appeals to me about Lear appeals to me about Crouch." "But..." begins Elkins. "Just a moment. One more thing. Some canon that struck me as rather interesting." ----------------------------- Mr. Crouch turned to look at Dumbledore. "I think that's all, is it, Albus?" "I think so," said Dumbledore, who was looking at Mr. Crouch with mild concern. "Are you sure you wouldn't like to stay at Hogwarts tonight, Barty?" ------------------------------- "Is it just me or does Dumbledore seem to show some affection for Crouch there? His concern is only "mild" and therefore not linked to some idea in his head that this might be linked to Voldemort. He's worried about Crouch, the same way I feel he is worried about Harry, Snape, and others. The fact that Dumbledore disapproved of what Crouch had done doesn't mean he didn't care for him." "But..." begins Elkins again. Eileen continues talking. "And if anyone wants more wonderful Crouch stuff, check out Charis Julia's posts." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/37567 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/37769 "But..." says Elkins. "Do you want to hear me out or not?" "I do," says Eileen. "I really do." ********************************************************* (1) and (2) were comments made to me by Elkins off-list. Eileen --------------------------------------------------------- For further explanation of the acronyms and theories in this post, visit Hypothetic Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hypotheticalley.htm and Inish Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=13 --------------------------------------------------------- From oppen at mycns.net Tue Oct 15 21:41:35 2002 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:41:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Skeeter References: Message-ID: <00d701c27493$a50e7d80$e2510043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 45403 > Brian pondered: > > > How about the presence of a convicted murderer/Azkaban > > escapee/unregistered animagi in the Hogwarts hospital wing > > conspiring with the Headmaster and a former Death Eater to embark > > upon a course of action contrary to the stated wishes of the > > Minister of Magic? Rita Skeeter was there at the time! > > Well, I think that RS heard everything, and knows all about Snape being > a death eater (well, I guess that's not news), as well as Sirius being both > a trusted friend of Dumbledore *and* an unregisterd animagus, and heard all > of the argument between Fudge and Dumbledore and the group's subsequent > decision to mobilize against Voldemort and gain secret support in the > ministry. But, this also exactly why I think the truth about Sirius will be > revealed in the OoP (besides the fact that it will have been a secret long > enough!) is because as soon as Rita were to be human again, she would break > the story. I mean, Hermione told her she would keep her as a beetle in the > jar for a year, and see if after that she could stop dragging people through > the mud (obvoiusly not verbatim!). Well, once Hermy let her out, she > wouldn't have to lie to tell all that good stuff that would just rock the > wizarding world- so I think, by the time she's allowed to regain human form, > the truth will already have come out (Michelle) Now me: Actually the quote from Hermione is : "I've told her that I'll let her out when we get back to London" so she's not got to stay in the jar for a year. I agree with Brian, I think that what Rita saw/ overheard is a time bomb waiting to go off. I think that Rita wouldn't have taken being imprisoned by a school girl very well,(understatement of the year I think!). (Eric) Actually, if Hermione was Ever So Evil (has that theory ever been floated here?) this might not be much of a problem. As in: "Yes, I said I'd let her go free when we got back to London," said Hermione with a smile Harry didn't much like, looking with satisfaction at the big beetle buzzing around the room, "but that was _all_ I said, wasn't it? I never, ever mentioned Memory Charms. Well, in _Hogwarts, a History,_ it mentions in one of the footnotes that if you hit a transformed Animaga with a Memory Charm while in Animagus form, that person will forget that he or she was ever anything but an animal." "You mean---?" said Harry. A cold chill went down his back. Hermione smiled at him, rather patronizingly, he thought, and patted his knee. "Yes. When I opened the jar, I had my wand at the ready, and a quick 'Obliviate!' made sure that Miss Rita Skeeter'll never know she was ever anything but a beetle. She doesn't remember being a human, she doesn't know how to turn back into a human. Even if someone did the reverse-Animagism charm on her...that is, if anybody but we three knew she was an Animagus...she'd still be a drooling idiot, not fit for her former job, or for any job." Her evil smile suddenly changed to a gamine grin. "Or any job save Minister of Magic, and we already have one of _those!_" Seriously, though, I would not be surprised to find that Hermione is a pretty steely, ruthless character under that "good girl, gets good grades" exterior. When she wants something, she'll do what she has to to get it, and consequences can take care of themselves. She wanted to take absolutely maximum advantage of her time at Hogwarts, to the point of nearly breaking her health with over-use of the Time-Turner. She stood up to Ron over Crookshanks, instead of getting rid of him when he tried to attack Scabbers/Pettigrew. She stood up to the rest of the school and received opinion of the Wizard World over house-elves, even when her _two best friends in the whole world_ were trying to discourage her. In fact...the books can be interpreted in a way that allows Hermione Granger to be Ever So Evil. Evil, after all, does _not_ have to equate to sending Valentines to Voldemort---I would say one of the evil-er people in the canon so far was none other than Gilderoy Lockhart, who is _not_ a DE. Hermione could easily reconcile being Ever So Evil and Harry Potter's Best Pal And Right-Hand Woman---if she wants to be ruler of the Wizard World, she can't allow Voldemort to try for the same job, can she? She works against the DEs, but then, the DEs are out to get her just because of who her parents were, and they work for the guy who wants to rule the WW instead of her. She wants to liberate the house-elves---who have powerful magic and whom we know to be very willing to serve and to be grateful to those who do them favors. She could come forth as the leader of the wizards and witches who are tired of the corrupt, inept rule of the "old wizarding families" like the Malfoys---and the Weasleys. I'm sure that there are Muggle-borns who're tired of the attitude the Malfoys have, and we don't know how common being Muggle-born is, do we? (NB: I would be gobsmacked if Hermione _did_ turn out to be Ever So Evil---but then, I wasn't expecting Scabbers to be anything but a rat, and JKR has been known to surprise us.) From porphyria at mindspring.com Tue Oct 15 22:30:19 2002 From: porphyria at mindspring.com (Porphyria Ashenden) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 22:30:19 -0000 Subject: The "face-value" theory of PoA -- now with shiny acronym! (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45404 Porphyria brings home her shiny new PRESSURE COOKER and puts it on the counter. She had been admiring a MAGIC DISHWASHER in the window and was amazed at all it's complicated features and intricate craftsmanship, but then she ultimately decided that a PRESSURE COOKER would be more durable in the long run. She scrutinizes the standard settings as recommended by MarinaManufacturing, and they look pretty good. She can't resist a few tweaks. She finds the "Dumbledore is cruel to Snape" knob and turns it up a little. Then she turns it down a little. Then she jiggles it. Finally she leaves it at medium -- not too hot, not too cold. The she finds the "Snape didn't feed Sirius to the Dementors..." control panel and keys in the "because he's just to darn decent" setting. Then she finds the "Snape could have figured out that Hermione had a TT" knob, and she cranks that puppy up to 11. Then she stands back and admires it. "It's perfect!" ----- But the MAGIC DISHWASHER sales staff is very enthusiastic. Pip quotes Marina here: > At this point, Snape is in a very precarious position. He's > facing two powerful evil wizards, one of whom is likely to turn > into a bloodthirsty monster at any moment. He's outnumbered, and > responsible for the safety of three ungrateful brats And Pip replies: ----- So he ties up *both* of the powerful evil wizards, conjures up two stretchers, and tells the kids to stop messing about, and help him get Lupin and Black back to Hogwarts. No? ----- So, the question is, why did Snape act the way he did? Well, for one thing, Sirius does not have a wand at this point. So no matter how many Muggles he was supposed to have blown up in his DE days, Snape apparently doesn't consider him a threat without a wand. Furthermore, Snape has shown over and over that he likes making dramatic speeches, and this 'vengeance is very sweet' sort of posturing is right up his alley. I admit it does not make practical sense, but it goes along with his face-value personality as established in canon. As to the kids disarming him; it has been established in canon that when multiple wizards aim the same on a single target it gets proportionally stronger, so I have no particular problem that they knocked him out. I also have no particular problem with the fact that he spent time demanding that they acknowledge he was saving them without quite understanding that they were about to attack him. This too, does go along with his established habit of insisting on appreciation and respect, even to the point of being insulting about it. Marina argues that Snape doesn't feed Black to the dementors for various prudent reasons and Pip replies: ----- Ah, another problem with the face-value reading. Which you've dealt with very well ? giving a plausible motivation for Snape which does account for the embarrassing fact that his behaviour when he thinks Harry is unconscious and therefore *not* observing him is different from his behaviour when he thinks Harry *is or may be* observing him. Yup, that's fine. He screams his head off in the Shack, and in the Hospital later, but in this particular moment he is perfectly calm, in control, and able to consider the consequences of his actions. ----- You don't have to buy MAGIC DISHWASHER to notice and agree that Snape acts very differently when he thinks he has an audience versus when he thinks he's not being watched (at least not by students). The face- value reading would suggest that not only does he love making threats that he never keeps, but also that he loves it for the reaction he gets out of people; he loves frightening them and he loves weirding them out. He's motivated by the emotional effect he has on others; that's part of what drives him to act up, especially with Harry. I'd say he doesn't need more of an ulterior motive than that. Some people are just *like that* and Snape is one of them. Feeding, or threatening to feed, Sirius to a Dementor when *everyone else is unconscious* is just no fun at all. And besides, I do like to think he's too decent to carry through on all his threats. Pip remarks parenthetically: ----- [I do have a problem with the way Snape, who has spent the last three books apparently trying to get Harry expelled, is so extraordinarily tentative when faced with someone [Fudge] who may well have the power to *insist* Harry be expelled. However, it is not yet canon that the MoM does have that power , so we'll ignore that objection.] ----- Well, maybe this is MD'ish of me -- no not really -- but I don't believe that Snape wants to get Harry expelled. Snape wants to frighten Harry into behaving. He does this by threatening to expel him. (When this doesn't work, by GoF, he tries threatening him with Veritaserum. But they are *always* empty threats. He never follows through.) On to Richard's objection that Fudge tells Snape to be reasonable. Pip remarks: ----- If you go through Fudge's dialogue in this Chapter, and in Chapter 21, you will find that Fudge addresses Snape as `Snape', or in extreme exasperation, `man' or `fellow'. He never calls him *Severus*. Only *Dumbledore* in this scene calls Snape by his given name. ----- And yet, as she points out, the text reads like so: "He must have Disapparated, Severus. We should have left somebody in the room with him. When this gets out --" "HE DIDN'T DISAPPARATE!" Snape roared, now very close at hand. "YOU CAN'T APPARATE OR DISAPPARATE INSIDE THIS CASTLE! THIS -- HAS -- SOMETHING -- TO -- DO -- WITH -- POTTER!" "Severus -- be reasonable -- Harry has been locked up --" "See here, Snape, be reasonable," said Fudge. "This door's been locked, we just saw --" Pip, I see what you mean that the first line is not attributed. And I acknowledge that Dumbledore does appear to be alone in calling Snape by his given name. Still, I can't buy your interpretation. I refuse to believe that Dumbledore would suggest Disapparation to Snape with a straight face since Dumbledore is probably the one in charge of making sure you cannot Apparate into or out of Hogwarts. Furthermore, Fudge *does tell* Snape to be reasonable a few lines later, so that's certainly an expression he would use. So is "when this gets out"; that line is Mega-Fudgey. So, my non-Metathinking interpretation would be that perhaps Fudge, who is obviously upset by Snape's ranting, is just trying to get his attention by calling him by his given name against his custom. He's *pleading* with Snape at this point and leaves off pleading a few lines later. Calling someone by a name they're not used to hearing you use can be a good way of snapping their attention to you. Also I refuse to believe that Dumbledore would lie outright. He tells Harry he will never lie to him (so unless he's lying when he says that...). And his not-lie "unless you are suggesting..." is far more typical of his clever way of using the language. I think that's my big objection to MD. I like to think that Dumbledore is clever enough to never lie outright. And I don't like to think Snape lies either -- except to Voldemort. ~Porphyria, hoping Marina doesn't mind her taking her part for her p.s. And who also really loves the "Snape is Sirius' illegitimate half-brother" theory, even if it is a bit soap-opera-ish. It needs an acronym. :-) From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 15 23:30:26 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 23:30:26 -0000 Subject: The "face-value" theory of PoA -- now with shiny acronym! (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45405 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Porphyria Ashenden" wrote: > Porphyria brings home her shiny new PRESSURE COOKER and puts it on > the counter. She had been admiring a MAGIC DISHWASHER in the window > and was amazed at all it's complicated features and intricate > craftsmanship, but then she ultimately decided that a PRESSURE COOKER > would be more durable in the long run. > > But the MAGIC DISHWASHER sales staff is very enthusiastic. Porphyria has amazingly managed to make just about all the arguments I would've made, thus saving my cramped fingers the effort of yet another long post. I do have one point to add, however: > ----- > [I do have a problem with the way Snape, who has spent the last > three books apparently trying to get Harry expelled, is so > extraordinarily tentative when faced with someone [Fudge] who may > well have the power to *insist* Harry be expelled. However, it is > not yet canon that the MoM does have that power , so we'll ignore > that objection.] > ----- > > Well, maybe this is MD'ish of me -- no not really -- but I don't > believe that Snape wants to get Harry expelled. Snape wants to > frighten Harry into behaving. He does this by threatening to expel > him. (When this doesn't work, by GoF, he tries threatening him with > Veritaserum. But they are *always* empty threats. He never follows > through.) I tend to waffle on whether or not Snape really wants Harry expelled, but even if he does, we know his efforts are doomed, since it's Dumbledore he's opposing on this matter. Dumbledore will never allow Harry to be expelled. Note that in Lupin's case, Snape takes the fight to Lupin himself -- a more vulnerable party. Snape doesn't bother trying to get Lupin fired -- he knows Dumbledore will never do it. So Snape creates a situation where Lupin resigns voluntarily. Since Harry can't expel himself, Snape can't go that route. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 16 00:22:12 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 00:22:12 -0000 Subject: Rule Britannia! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45406 I always feel a little hesitant to make these types of posts for fear that all the Brits will jump up and say, "That's not how it is at all!" But it's got to be asked... I've been reading Richard Adams again (moans from certain listies), and I was quite struck by his last paragraph, which introduces an idea that I don't think he properly explores. "In fact, technologically at least, the wizard world appears to have stopped somewhere around 1918. And this is significant. Those wizards not raised among modern Muggles would not feel out of place in the world of J. P. Hartley's The Go-Between. Even their currency gestures towards pre-decimal pounds, shillings and pence, although in the wizard world these become galleons (gold), sickles (silver) and knuts (bronze) -- all coins, there are no banknotes, credit cards or cheque books. This is an interesting era for Rowling to model the wizard world on, because it was of course the last time that Britain could genuinely call itself a great power. That it did not remain one is at least in part explained by the two world wars of the twentieth century." http://www.voiceoftheturtle.org/reviews/books/richard_potter.shtml Why are the aurors searching Europe for Voldemort? Think of it this way. Can Tony Blair send special forces with an investigative capacity (for that is what the aurors essentially are), authorized to use lethal force and torture across Europe? One might reply that the local countries are co-operating. But if that is so, they are really co-operating. Beyond the point of reasonability in our world. The aurors are not an international force. Despite the little jokes about the EU in GoF, Britain is as independant as ever, and the aurors are controlled directly from the Ministry. They operate in secret too, and they go everywhere. Was Karkaroff definitely in England when he was apprehended? Why would a man hailing from Eastern Europe who had been on the run for months be? Antonin Dolohov? And there's that puzzling question about whether Voldemort was a threat to Britian, Europe, or the whole world. The evidence is contradictory. Unless one sees Britian as the wizarding super-power. I haven't considered this too far, and I would be glad to see what others make of this, and how it fits in with nostalgia and all that. Eileen From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Wed Oct 16 00:41:56 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 01:41:56 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Keeper of the Keys? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021016011348.009628e0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45407 At 13:38 15/10/02 +0000, mrflynn6 wrote: >Perhaps I have missed this somewhere, but what exactly is a "Keeper >of the Keys"? Hagrid introduces himself to Harry as this. Is this a >British term for something? I am assuming it is the guardian of >something other than Harry's vault key. I don't know about general usage, but there is one very, very famous and long-standing real life owner of that title, the Keeper of the Keys at the Tower of London. Even today, the Keeper of the Keys is much more than a ceremonial role (the current Keeper, as all who went before him, is a senior military officer), and he quite literally is the only person who has a key to the front door. He opens it every morning, and closes it every night (together with several other doors, the only keys to which are in his possession). A procession every evening during which the Keeper of the Keys does his rounds of the Tower is the longest-running unbroken and unchanged military routine (started in the 12th century and known to have been interrupted - NOT cancelled! - on only one day in all that time, during a bomb raid on the Tower during WWII). Incidentally, all of the Beef Eaters (the guys in the funny "costumes" who act as tour guides at the Tower) aren't actors or hired help. They are all trained military officers who have to go through a rigorous selection process (not the least element of which is to have a loud voice and some acting ability!) :-) to be posted to serve at the Tower, where they also live. Should the need arise (and it has, on a several occasions in the quite recent past) they are able to drop their tourist guide role immediately and take on their primary role as trained soldiers... Oh, and what they wear aren't costumes, they're traditional military uniforms... The Keeper of the Keys is their immediate commanding officer. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who would like to apologise for the OT digression, but felt some people might find it interesting, as indeed is the Tower of London itself!. :-) From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 16 00:44:47 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 00:44:47 -0000 Subject: Task 3 point of view with popcorn. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45408 bboy_mn wrote about Task #3: >>>>Also, we are never given the spectator's point of view. We don't know what happened outside the maze. It's possible that there was a magic bubble with their name floating over each contestant, giving the spectators an indication of each contestants location. It could even give a limited commentary like 'Harry meets Sphinx' or 'Harry meet upside down charm'. Also, remember that the maze went silent as soon as Harry entered it, so if there was a running commentary, he couldn't hear it. Since he couldn't hear it, neither could we.<<<< Me: Ooo, I began wondering that too...unfortunately, after I posted. How did the spectators follow what was happening inside the maze? We know from canon that Harry and Cedric had "lit" wands, so the audience at least could watch tiny little lights wander in the dark maze. I like the bubble idea though. Helps the first years follow along. Then bboy cont. about Task #2: >>>I have trouble fantasizing any way that they could have had a running commentary during that task.<<< Me: Gee, if that isn't encouragement to bring out my creative box of crayons, I don't know what is... Hmmm, suggestion number one. The basic jumbo-tron screen (magically conjured of course) with a task two style video game of the champion complete with little evil grindylows and vivid color graphics of the merpeople village. Maybe even sprinkled with educational tidbits about the squid and why he is so ticklish. It would appear after the champions emerge and disappear once the last champion rose out of the water hence, Potter never knew about it or mentioned it. Suggestion number two. A small, enchanted model of the lake (similar to Wood's Quidditch field) was in front of each audience member or group section that gave basic whereabouts of each champion. This way the viewers could see the locations of the champions but not the reasons behind the actions. Then Myrtle, who did not have a figurine, would not show up, nor would the audience know the reason Potter took so long underneath. Hey, the figures could even show what spells/charms the champions used since their figure would change too. Suggestion number three....borrowed from you of course. Bagman gave a running commentary since he obviously can see through water. ;) Or he could just entertain the crowd with that razor sharp wit of his. (why is the crowd snickering?) Hey, Dumbledore could tell a few of those jokes of his. I personally want to hear more of them in the next three books. Suggestion number four. It was a *magic* lake. (winking to Elkins) Suggestion number five...also inspired by your post. The "special" popcorn distributed by the school to appease the students magically began performing the current task's events with graphic details. The attack of the grindylows was especially poignant with the large fluffy kernels overcome by the small ugly kernel seeds. Little bits of popcorn everywhere.... And suggestion number six for how the students watch task two... The faulty of Hogwarts performed the actions of the champions on a stage constructed in front of the stands. McGonagall played a rather brilliant Fleur, transfiguring her hat and bun into long silvery white hair, in contrast to Flitwick's lack luster, but rather cheerful interpretation of Krum. Hagrid won the cast call to play Cedric and saved Cho Chang Sprout from a water grave. And, the cr?me de la resistance was of course Snape as Potter who performed his role with such dignity and a childlike wonder that it brought tears to the eyes of the sensitive. Hey, it is possible. Melody From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Oct 16 02:22:08 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 21:22:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magic Daggers and Gleams of Triumph/ Why Wormtail was made Secret Keeper References: Message-ID: <01f501c274ba$d6592260$06a1cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45409 -K-lo writes: > If I may say, Im not sure about that magic dagger theory. Dumbledore > seemed to have his gleam just after Harry mentioned that it was his blood > that was used. Which means that (maybe) some magical property thats in it, The gleam actually comes just after Dumbledore learns that Voldemort touched Harry, but Harry is still alive. Which means at least the timing supports the "Elxir of Life experimentation on baby Harry" theory. If Dumbledore in fact knew that such experimentation had been done, yet obviously had no way to know if it worked, he would not have known whether baby Harry survived because the Elxier experiment worked or if it was Lily's sacrifice that saved Harry. But now that Voldemort can physically touch Harry and he is still alive, it is Dumbledore's first clue that the experiment was a success, at least partially. Rita writes: > Black to Peter " I thought it was the perfect plan ... a bluff ... Voldemort > would be sure to come after me, would never dream they'd used a weak, > talentless thing like you" > I hope this'll help settling the matter. Err, no. It takes more than that to convince me. We must consider when this was said, and by whom. Sirius Black has just spent 12 years in Azkaban and several months on the run, all thanks to Peter Pettigrew. He's not about to say, "You were a Hufflepuff, what happened to loyalty?" No, he's going to insult him the best way he can think of. Calling him weak and talentless seems to be a fair insult, though I could've probably done better. :) If indeed the *only* reason Sirius thought Peter should be the secret keeper was because Voldemort wouldn't want him than he, and James because he believed him, are complete idiots. Voldemort is the sort who will use *anyone* and *everyone* he possibly can. He doesn't care how weak and talentless they are. In fact, the weaker and less talented they are, the easier to get at them. You can always toss them aside after you're finished anyway. Sorry to call Sirius and James idiots, but that's why I think there was another reason they chose Peter, which would make them not idiots, but trusting who they thought was supposed to be loyal. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 16 02:21:41 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 02:21:41 -0000 Subject: PRESSURE COOKERs often develop cracks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45410 How wonderful it would all be if we could take JKR for her word. How liberating and simple. We can take a simple invisibility cloak gift as just an heirloom finally given. We don't need to wonder how Dumbledore received it in the first place. Thoughts of the conversations and serious fears between giver and receiver are not necessary, because they do not matter. Are not important to the story. All we need to worry about is that it is in the hands of our hero, Harry. The same is true with Hagrid's obviously candid mention of borrowing the motorcycle from Sirius. We don't even have to worry about the simple inquiry followed by Dumbledore. "No problems, where there?" Just a basic inquiry...perfectly normal considering the circumstances. Not meaning anything or hinting of knowing too much beyond the basic state of baby Harry, Godric's Hollow, and whether Voldemort caused more trouble. Not to mention the ever-famous rat of the Weasley's. We were never meant to expect more from such a simple pet rat. We are to read him as just a little boy's pet passed down from his brothers, thus being yet another hand-me-down. Our basic read need not show us any concern of anything to the contrary. We read Scabbers as a rat and just a rat. Oh, but oops...he's so much more. I guess my big problem with a basic, childlike read of this series is that JKR loves, craves, *thrives* on the thrill of throwing her readers off track. Tossing aside her status as God of Potterland, her style as a writer is to subtly introduce and then distract our minds from the truth so that when we reach the end of the story, we are asking ourselves why we did not see the truth from the beginning. The hints were all there. What I think Pip!Squeak and Grey Wolf are trying to do is beat JKR to the punch. They want to pre-predict what punches are coming. For the ability to say "I told you so" yes, but more to feel that they are as witty and crafty as our true hero JKR herself. My only other objection to face value reading is that at face value this is from the perspective of a lost little boy. He is searching for truth and relies on his intuition. He wants to believe that Scabbers is just a rat until it is proven otherwise. He wants to believe that Snape is a cruel, heartless, lonely teacher who is only out to make the people Harry cares about miserable. It is hard to push that concept aside yes, but it is fallible. There is always more politics going on behind the scenes of classrooms than students ever know. To take a basic view of Harry Potter is to deny that teachers do talk in the faulty lounge. It denies the Wizard World a past until JKR decides to paint it. We all know that is not true, and we all definitely do believe that more has, is, and will go on than what Harry sees. Now to bring this to the ground that both theories were constructed... The Shrieking Shack A lovely series of chapters. My personal favorite from the beginning. Even with a basic reading, the twist and turns of our perceived mindset from the past two books is just chilling. Now the question is whether JKR is constructing another twist, which survived the whole series, of the true character of Snape. Completely plausible in my opinion and my favorite part of MAGIC DISHWASHER. We all have been deceived, as has Harry, about Snape's true intentions for his hatred of Harry. I find it plausible not because I desire Snape to be a closet supporter of Harry, but because it is completely in his character to have that twist. JKR has left it a possibility in her writing and an intriguing one at that. Look, basically, it is obvious that Dumbledore has plans to defeat Voldemort. We haven't been told them, but Dumbledore knows the benefits of a good defense, and the best defense is a good offense. If would be foolish for Dumbledore to just sit and relax waiting for Voldemort to resurface and then work against him...again. That is what PRESSURE COOKER seems to imply to me. Dumbledore is just waiting. Busying his time. Hey, let's plan a TriWiz tournament. Get to see Madame Maxime and Karkaroff and prove I am the superior wizard again. Sure, Dumbledore may not want Voldemort to come back ever again, but that does not remove the reality that Voldemort is completely capable of doing just that. It would be foolish for Dumbledore not to have a game plan. Maybe I understand your position of the books too simply. I just know that when I first read these books in the childlike way of what-you-see-is-what-you-get, I have been greatly and happily surprised that there is so much more by the end. Melody Who prefers to slow roast her meat over an open flame From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Wed Oct 16 02:34:24 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 03:34:24 +0100 Subject: PRESSURE COOKER In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021016015858.0096e920@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45411 At 22:30 15/10/02 +0000, Porphyria wrote, in reply to Pip's objections: >On to Richard's objection that Fudge tells Snape to be reasonable. >Still, I can't buy your interpretation. I refuse to believe that >Dumbledore would suggest Disapparation to Snape with a straight face >since Dumbledore is probably the one in charge of making sure you >cannot Apparate into or out of Hogwarts. Furthermore, Fudge *does >tell* Snape to be reasonable a few lines later, so that's certainly >an expression he would use. So is "when this gets out"; that line is >Mega-Fudgey. *sniff* There I was, replying to a few other emails whilst arranging my thoughts on this one, and Porphyria comes along and steals my thunder, saying pretty much everything I wanted to. Then again, not *quite* everything. :-) I must point out that when I took Pip to task over who said what, I hadn't noticed that the "be reasonable" line came up twice, once outside the Infirmary and once inside, which is one of the reasons for our mutual confusion. Only the line inside the Infirmary was attributed, to Fudge, a fact to which Porphyria referred above. That said, a few more thoughts: What Harry hears from outside the door are "angry voices, growing louder and louder" (note plural voices). When the senior trio enter, "Dumbledore alone looked calm", Fudge is described as "angry", Snape was "beside himself". So who was more likely to have been the owner of the other angry voice? The apparently calm Dumbledore, or the angry Fudge? If it was Dumbledore, BOY, does he change mood quickly! Not to mention that as far as I can tell, Dumbledore has never been seen to have raised his voice in the four books to date. Incidentally, I know it's not been raised as a possibility, but I'd just like to point out that as regards whether or not Fudge knew Hermione had the Time-Turner, he doesn't even know Hermione's name, referring to her throughout as "girl" or "young lady", both when talking to her or about her. BTW, I understand that one of MD's tenets is that Snape was trying to stop the kids mentioning rats. Why, pray, does Snape say (sorry, "spit") during their first visit to the Infirmary: "I suppose he [Black]'s told you the same fairy tale he's planted in Potter's mind? Something about a rat, and Pettigrew being alive"? :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who has just noticed that he started writing this message almost two hours ago and has no idea why it's taken so long as he's not done anything else of note in that time! From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Wed Oct 16 01:44:25 2002 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (K-lo) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 21:44:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Skeeter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45412 >> >She will be furious, but we don't know what >> >information she has. > >> >yours, Bess >> >(first post in a long while) > > Which leads me to wonder how long Hermione will be holding on to Skeeter in ?Bug? form? How will she know what Rita knows? She mentioned that she?d hold Rita to writing nothing bad for a year (last chapter, GOF), but how is she going to hold her to that? -Padamanmage [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 02:59:16 2002 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 02:59:16 -0000 Subject: PRESSURE COOKERs often develop cracks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45413 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > > Now the question is whether JKR is constructing another twist, which > survived the whole series, of the true character of Snape. Completely > plausible in my opinion and my favorite part of MAGIC DISHWASHER. We > all have been deceived, as has Harry, about Snape's true intentions > for his hatred of Harry. I find it plausible not because I desire > Snape to be a closet supporter of Harry, but because it is completely > in his character to have that twist. JKR has left it a possibility in > her writing and an intriguing one at that. Me: I don't think that PRESSURE COOKER denies the possibility of us being deceived about Snape's true intentions about Harry.(Marina, please correct me if I am wrong) Unfortunately we are not privy to Snape thoughts (I wish :o) ). We all know that he saved him in SS/PS, right? I am expecting Snape to reveal many of his secrets by the end of the series. What I am not expecting and what MAGIC DISHWASHER seems to imply that Snape's rather nasty attitude to Harry is just a mask. I am repeating myself, but I think that it is very possible for Snape to protect the boy and dislike him immensely at the same time. What I am also not expecting is that Snape's hate of Sirius and Lupin, his overwhelming desire to feed them to dementors will turn out to be pretense. I don't think that face value reading of the Shrieking Shack stops us from expecting twists and turns in the future. > Look, basically, it is obvious that Dumbledore has plans to defeat > Voldemort. We haven't been told them, but Dumbledore knows the > benefits of a good defense, and the best defense is a good offense. > If would be foolish for Dumbledore to just sit and relax waiting for > Voldemort to resurface and then work against him...again. That is > what PRESSURE COOKER seems to imply to me. Dumbledore is just > waiting. Busying his time. Hey, let's plan a TriWiz tournament. Get > to see Madame Maxime and Karkaroff and prove I am the superior wizard > again. Sure, Dumbledore may not want Voldemort to come back ever > again, but that does not remove the reality that Voldemort is > completely capable of doing just that. It would be foolish for > Dumbledore not to have a game plan. Me: Yes, it would be foolish for Dumbledore not to have a game plan, but (in my opinion) the preparations which Dumbledore probably made did not include the Voldemort return. Metathinking or not I am not ready to accept very gray, almost dark Dumbledore of MAGIC DISHWASHER, especially if I think that such possibility almost flat out denied by the canon. "You flatter me," said Dumbledore calmly. "Voldemort had powers I will never have. Only because you're too-well - noble to use them". (PS/SS, p.11) Of course Dumbledore has to prepare to make some sacrifices being a leader in the horrible fight and all, but I think that willingly (and in my opinion unnecessary) forcing Voldemore to return will lead to too many sacrifices, which Dumbledore is not going to make. > Maybe I understand your position of the books too simply. I just know > that when I first read these books in the childlike way of > what-you-see-is-what-you-get, I have been greatly and happily > surprised that there is so much more by the end. I am not sure about Marina, but yes you seem to understand my position of the books too simply. :o) Alla From the.gremlin at verizon.net Wed Oct 16 04:14:30 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 04:14:30 -0000 Subject: FILK-Lifestyles of the Famous Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45414 This is what comes of drving a shuttle for four and a half hours and listening to the same song over and over again--my very first(and probably only) filk. To the tune of "Lifestyles of the Rich and the Famous" by Good Charlotte. I tried my best. A spotlight shines on the center of a stage and a microphone. Prof. Snape walks into the circle of light, leans into the darkness, picks up an electric guitar, and pulls the strap over his head. He then turns around to signal the drummer. SNAPE: And a one, two three- You see him in the halls Or even in the "Prophet" Flaunting his scar and demanding sympathy. All he does is strut his stuff In front of all his friends Talking about his perfect father I'd like to see him spend a say Disembowling toads I don't think that's he survive Or her could spend an hour or two Spit-shining all my shoes Humility is what he needs Lifestyles of the famous Potter He's always gettin' away with it Always gettin' away with it If he becomes too big a problem Well we got detentions Think I could give him one You know if you were Potter you could help a murderer flee Help an old school mate make a fool of me 'Long as the headmaster's there to aprove it And did you know if you were caught and you were sneaking out Hogwarts would just take you back And you can always just run for head boy I'd like to see him spend a say Disembowling toads I don't think that's he survive Or her could spend an hour or two Spit-shining all my shoes Humility is what he needs Lifestyles of the famous Potter He's always gettin' away with it Always gettin' away with it If he becomes too big a problem Well we got detentions Think I could give him one Lifestyles of the famous Potter He's always gettin' away with it Always gettin' away with it If he becomes too big of a problem He's such a big problem Think I could solve it Lifestyles of the famous Potter I'll take insults, curses, mockery, just punish him! Lifestyles of the famous Potter Lifestyles of the famous Potter Lifestyles of the famous Potter! Prof. Snape takes a quick bow and exits the stage before the first tomato hits. -Acire From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Oct 16 05:34:53 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 05:34:53 -0000 Subject: The "face-value" theory of PoA -- now with shiny acronym! (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45415 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bluesqueak" wrote: > > Yes, indeedy, being knocked unconcious *was* insulting wasn't it? After all he'd said to them, too - about feeding Black to the dementors, about feeding Lupin to the dementors, about feeding drat, there isn't anybody else left to feed to the dementors, lets start insulting Harry, instead. And then Harry's dead parents. > > Gosh, if you read Snape's lines at face value, you might almost > think Snape *wants* to make Harry lose his temper > > Which is exactly what DISHWASHER argues. [grin].<<< Oh, Snape wants somebody to lose his temper all right. But it's not Harry. It's easy to think that Snape wants Harry to lose his temper because, well, that's what Snape does. When in doubt, make Harry lose his temper. But there's another explanation... Pip goes on: > > I will pass over in silence the Trio's remarkable duelling ability, > since in a face value reading it is completely obvious that three > thirteen year olds with very little practice in duelling can defeat > an adult wizard trained in duelling. (Snape's inability to move > quickly enough is probably an example of paralysis dramaticus, as Pippin would say). Well, no, I wouldn't A face-value reading of the last chapter of CoS shows that the Trio practiced disarming each other along with Fred, George and Ginny, and that Harry had gotten quite good at it. If you think a thirteen year old can't have faster reflexes than an adult, I suggest you spend some time at the nearest video arcade. And I would remind you that Harry was trained in Expelliarmus by none other than Snape himself. Harry's also shown an ability to resist it. Draco couldn't take his wand at the dueling club. Snape knows that, and he doesn't know that Lupin was able to take the Trio's wands, which might explain why Snape didn't expelliarmus the trio himself the way Lupin did. As for why Snape didn't bind Sirius, that's explained by Snape himself, "Give me a reason to do it, and I swear I will." If Sirius tries to escape, Snape will have an excuse to kill him. That's why Snape threatens Sirius and Lupin with the Dementors, and refuses to take Sirius to the castle. He's trying to goad Sirius into attacking him, and then Harry, the stupid prat, puts himself in the line of fire, trying to protect Sirius from Snape. No wonder Snape is furious. Once Sirius is unconscious of course, Snape's got no excuse to kill him personally, and takes him to the castle after all, consoling himself that at least Black will get kissed. Pippin From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 07:37:29 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 00:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [filk] Breathing Like The Fishies Message-ID: <20021016073729.27024.qmail@web40302.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45416 BREATHING LIKE THE FISHIES to the tune of "One Last Breath" by Creed Go here for the video or just the music, for Real Player or Windows Media http://www.creednet.com (I HIGHLY recommend the video. They've got something that looks kind of like a pensieve in it, and that lead singer -- ooooh, Corgi won't like this -- would make an EXCELLENT Sirius, imho.) Dedicated to Robert, my "Wheezy" The Scene: Harry has just made it to the shores of the lake for the Third Task. HARRY, THINKING TO HIMSELF: Dobby came and gave me gilly Here's hoping that this weed will keep me safe Last night my studies got me nowhere >From this task there's no escape (THE WHISTLE BLOWS) Now I'm chewing up this plant thing And I'm taking one last breath But now I'm growing gills, growing gills (HE FLINGS HIMSELF UNDER WATER) Hang on, now! I'm six feet under water I'm thinking, WOW! I'm breathing like the fishies now! Grindylows grab while I?m looking all over. I thank Myrtle for showing where to go. There... I found them in the Mer-Square; Hermy, Ron, some girl and Cho. (HE MOTIONS TO A MERMAN TO LEND HIM HIS SPEAR) MERMAN: "We do not help." HARRY I yell out "Come *ON*!" But because I have no breath All that comes out is bubbles, just bubbles (HE CUTS RON OUT WITH A JAGGED ROCK, AND STARTS CUTTING OUT THE OTHERS) MERMAN: "Take your own." HARRY?S BUBBLES: "Just get out of my way 'cause I'm thinking I don't want any of them to drown!" (CEDRIC AND VICTOR SHOW UP TO TAKE CHO AND HERMIONE, AND HARRY DECIDES TO NOT TO WAIT ANY LONGER FOR FLEUR TO GET HER SISTER. THE MERPEOPLE TRY TO STOP HIM.) "Stay back now! I?m taking both of them, and I warn you... If you don't let me I'll use my wand!" (HE PUTS UP 3 FINGERS) "That?s 3 - 2 - 1!" (MERPEOPLE SCATTER. HE STARTS SWIMMING WITH BOTH GABRIELLE AND RON. HE NOTICES THAT HE HAS FOLLOWERS) HARRY, THINKING AGAIN: Merfolk follow me. But when the time's gone, will they grab for me? Why are they smiling at me? Wonder if they're going to try to catch and eat us three, and eat us three, and eat us three. (WITH THE EFFECTS OF GILLYWEED GONE, HARRY STRUGGLES THE LAST FEW FEET ) Can't quit now.... I'm six feet from the surface, I'm so close... (HE SURFACES WITH A GREAT SPLASH RIGHT ON THAT LOUD GUITAR CHORD) Made it, WOW! I'm taking my first breath, but Ron's saying, "Why'd you waste time acting the hero?!" Thanks much, Ron... "Let?s help her to the shore." ...but I'm feeling A little foolish to believe that song. (GOING BACK IN THE CASTLE) Now that it's done, so glad it's over... I?m getting Dobby socks to last a year. ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pen at pensnest.co.uk Wed Oct 16 08:09:37 2002 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:09:37 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwarts Student Population In-Reply-To: <20021014185738.48795.qmail@web40301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9D3DDF64-E0DE-11D6-93E0-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 45417 On Monday, October 14, 2002, at 07:57 , Jackie wrote: > > This may just be a difference between England and > America, and I am fully open to corrections if I am > wrong, but can you prove that there are only 5 boys in > Harry's *dorm*? I know that there dorm is pointed out > as being on one side of the hall, but who says that > that door doesn't lead to a hall full of doors to > rooms? We only know the 5 boys in Harry's room, but > there could be other rooms attached to that hall. > This is a less-stable arguement, however, because here > in America, in colleges, a Dorm is a building as well > as a room. When I say 'I am going to my Dorm' I could > mean my room, but I could just mean the building, > which houses 800 other students. Please, someone in > England correct me if this is not the case there. > I'm pretty sure it is stated outright that Harry sees five four-poster beds when he goes into the dorm for the first time. I'm afraid that 'dorm' and 'dormitory' in this country mean a room, not a building (uh, except in the case of 'dormitory town', but that's different). At university, students might live in a Hall of Residence, but they wouldn't live in a dorm. It's a pity, really. I like to believe that there actually *are* more students in Gryffindor in Harry's year than we are told about, and that we only learn about the five boys and three girls because these are the ones with whom Harry interacts. But from the way canon goes, it is pretty hard to substantiate such a belief. Pen From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Wed Oct 16 11:15:20 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:15:20 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PRESSURE COOKERs often develop cracks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021016100159.00985530@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45418 At 02:21 16/10/02 +0000, Melody wrote: >I guess my big problem with a basic, childlike read of this series is >that JKR loves, craves, *thrives* on the thrill of throwing her >readers off track. Hey, I thought we weren't using metathinking in this thread. However, if you want to go down that road... :-) There's a huge difference between a surface reading and a naive (or childlike) reading. A surface reading does not imply lack of complexity; it does, however, recognise that any rigorously internal reading of a text implies that the clues to its understanding are there, but just need to be found. All one needs is the key to find and understand them. Hence for example, the knowledge that Scabbers is not just a rat gives a new reading to all of his scenes. Some things, however, must be as they appear as otherwise the author is simply cheating. The difficulty lies in knowing the difference. To take a non-Potter example of another literary work which has an officially-designated Canon: the Bible. It is possible to interpret it in hundreds of different ways (indeed, differences of interpretation have caused a great deal of bloodshed and even wars, and peripherally, some of those interpretations undermine the authority which decreed Canon in the first place), and some will insist that the key to its *true* interpretation is faith. Faith can be neither proved or disproved by the text itself, although it can be generated or strengthened by it. However, I would suggest that the proverbial bushman who is exposed to the text without the tradition which surrounds it would not necessarily develop faith from the text alone - he is more likely to consider it at best a morality play rather than the Word of God. Many fantasy/sci-fi worlds have posited the possibility of an otherwise innocuous text being given religious significance which it did not have, when it is taken out of context (e.g. several Star Trek episodes and Mad Max III immediately spring to my mind). In a way, it's a circular argument: It is the Word of God, because I believe what it says. But at the same time, I believe what it says because it is the Word of God. Where do premise and conclusion begin and end? MAGIC DISHWASHER is such an act of faith. If one chooses to be persuaded by it, examples in the text can be found to support it; one item of faith which is a key element of the M.D. theory is that that there is even more to Snape's depth than the text to date implies or indicates. Nobody in the PRESSURE COOKER camp is refuting that Snape has motivations which have not yet been revealed to us. To do otherwise would be absurd. Some of those depths have been hinted at and theories abound as to what they might be, and how Snape got to the situation he's in. As soon as JKR presents us with the prism through which to view Snape - the key to his personality - some of those theories will be proved to be true, some will not, and some will be left unproved either way. A few days ago, someone asked whether MAGIC DISHWASHER could ever be *disproved*. I'm absolutely certain that, regardless of the outcome of the series - assuming MAGIC DISHWASHER is not proved to be *true* - some people will insist that it remains a possible reading of the text, a possible key to its understanding, because the ultimate vision of Snape would not coincide with that presented by the M.D. folk. PRESSURE COOKER does not attempt to be an all-encompassing theory; all it does is to propose an alternative reading of one of the many sequences which M.D. puts forward as an example of its "truth". M.D.'s conclusions (or rather, primary assumptions) are necessarily extrinsic to the text we have to date; P.C. deliberately refuses to acknowledge extrinsic information but does take into account the complexity inherent in the *complete* text to date. In particular, as I've said before, whilst M.D. assumes more honourable *motives* on Snape's part than the text implies and then applies those motives to all of Snape's appearances to date, P.C. assumes that the primary key to his motives is what we learn about his past in GoF. Of course, the main difference between reading and understanding Potter canon and Biblical Canon is that the Potter canon is not yet complete, and its Author is available (though not very easily at present) :-) to clear up misunderstandings and differences of interpretation. Moldy further said: >It would be foolish for Dumbledore to just sit and relax waiting for >Voldemort to resurface and then work against him...again. That is >what PRESSURE COOKER seems to imply to me. Dumbledore is just >waiting. Busying his time. Hey, let's plan a TriWiz tournament. Get >to see Madame Maxime and Karkaroff and prove I am the superior wizard >again. Sure, Dumbledore may not want Voldemort to come back ever >again, but that does not remove the reality that Voldemort is >completely capable of doing just that. It would be foolish for >Dumbledore not to have a game plan. Indeed. It is quite clear that Dumbledore *does* have a game plan which has yet to be revealed to us, and it is clear that Snape is part of that plan. What is not yet clear is whether or not Harry is at present an important part of that plan, or whether, despite Dumbledore's evident fondness for Harry and his recognition of Harry's special place in the Wizarding World, Dumbledore considers his first and most important responsibility towards him to be as his Headmaster, to provide him with an education. I'm aware of what the M.D. acronym stands for and that one of its primary conclusions (or assumptions) is that Harry IS important to Dumbledore's plan, but Dumbledore's attitude towards him at present does not NECESSARILY require his interest to go beyond supplying Harry's education, which is admittedly just a little special considering Harry's rather unique position. At the end of GoF, Dumbledore sets his strategy into play: Snape is sent off on a mission (or to prepare for a mission); Hagrid is primed for a mission which involves Madame Maxine if she agrees to; the "old crowd" is recalled. It is also clear that Dumbledore would have preferred to include Fudge and the Ministry in his plan but accepts the possibility that he will have work around Fudge's intransigence. At no stage does Dumbledore propose that Harry has a place in this plan; on the contrary, Harry is pointedly sent off outside the Wizard World to enjoy his holidays and is even refused a peripheral view of the action at the Weasleys. M.D, would have it that Harry's place in the action would be unknowing, at least at this stage. However, the stakes have been raised: at least two unknowing participants in the Voldemort-Dumbledore battle have already paid with their lives: Bertha and Cedric. Furthermore, Dumbledore has already underlined on several occasions that knowledge is power, that we should confront our fears. Unless, of course, we're not ready to, which is another lesson he's taught Harry ("you will know when you are ready" is his enigmatic reply to Harry's question about why Voldemort went after him as a baby). By this stage, Harry knows the stakes, but Dumbledore clearly does not think he is ready to be an active participant and so deliberately puts him out of harm's way (even Voldemort has admitted he can't touch Harry when he's at the Dursleys'). Meta-textually, we know, because of the structure of the books to date (and indeed by the fact that they *are* books!), that Harry will become involved in the battle. But the big question is: will the extent of his involvement be deliberate on Dumbledore's part, or not? I am happy to say that I don't know. I'm also happy for the M.D. folk that they believe it will. To end this post in the same tone as I began, I am delighted for them that they have faith. I would like to share it, but as with religious faith, no amount of quoted scripture will give me faith unless I am willing to accept their basic premise/conclusion circular argument. At present, I do not. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who wonders if he's over-doing the religious parallels just a little... :-) From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 16 11:24:18 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 11:24:18 -0000 Subject: PRESSURE COOKERs often develop cracks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45419 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > I guess my big problem with a basic, childlike read of this series is > that JKR loves, craves, *thrives* on the thrill of throwing her > readers off track. Tossing aside her status as God of Potterland, her > style as a writer is to subtly introduce and then distract our minds > from the truth so that when we reach the end of the story, we are > asking ourselves why we did not see the truth from the beginning. The > hints were all there. Melody, you astonish me! Such a broad metathinking argument from an MD supporter. I am shocked! Shocked and apalled! Okay, seriously -- the PRESSURE COOKER in no way enforces a "basic, childlike" reading of the text. All it requires is that deeper layers of meaning must be extrapolated from things that we've actually seen or be told about in canon -- not from hypothetical things that may have happened off-screen but that we don't know anything about. Within that limitation, there is plenty of room to speculate about mysteries, double meanings, and hidden motives. Nor does PC restrict us to Harry's point of view, as you suggest later. Harry's point of view in PoA tells us that Snape's actions are motivated simply by the fact that he's a nasty git who hates him, Sirius and Lupin because of a silly schoolboy grudge. He spends no time contemplating Snape's sense of duty, his loyalty to (and complicated relationship with) Dumbledore. He never attempts to see the Prank from Snape's perspective, nor does it ever occur to him that Snape may have been worried for his safety. If you re-read my summary post, you'll notice that PRESSURE COOKER considers all of these factors, because they're all right there in the text. Harry may miss the nuances, but we don't have to. > Look, basically, it is obvious that Dumbledore has plans to defeat > Voldemort. We haven't been told them, but Dumbledore knows the > benefits of a good defense, and the best defense is a good offense. > If would be foolish for Dumbledore to just sit and relax waiting for > Voldemort to resurface and then work against him...again. Dumbledore is working against Voldemort *now* by making sure that Harry is properly prepared to face him. He's doing this by guiding not just Harry's magical training, but his moral training, too. And to a more general extent, he's trying to do the same for the current generation of the WW. The previous generation, which fought the last war, is beset by bigotry, fear, and a tendency to do what's easy over what's right (like authorizing Aurors to use Unforgivables and sending "obviously guilty" people to Azkaban without a trial). Dumbledore is fighting against a lot more than just Voldemort. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From Ali at zymurgy.org Wed Oct 16 12:12:44 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:12:44 -0000 Subject: Rule Britannia! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45420 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "lucky_kari" wrote: I always feel a little hesitant to make these types of posts for fear that all the Brits will jump up and say, "That's not how it is at all!" But it's got to be asked... We can only disagree after all - and we often agree with each other as well! Eileen asks about a British reading of the wizarding world based c 1918, when Britain was still a great power:- Why are the aurors searching Europe for Voldemort? Think of it this way. Can Tony Blair send special forces with an investigative capacity (for that is what the aurors essentially are), authorized to use lethal force and torture across Europe? One might reply that the local countries are co-operating. But if that is so, they are really co-operating. Beyond the point of reasonability in our world. The aurors are not an international force. Despite the little jokes about the EU in GoF, Britain is as independent as ever, and the aurors are controlled directly from the Ministry. They operate in secret too, and they go everywhere. I reply: I'd have to disagree with you here, Britain is still an independent nation. In practice though we are more than ever reliant on our European neighbours ? and indeed our trading partners in the rest of the world. We are very affected by "Globalisation". There are huge arguments about our participation in Europe, not least because involvement does lead to the loss of sovereignty on many different levels. One of which is that many of our laws are now made in Europe (they do still have to be re-enacted in our parliament) and judgement in Europe is binding on our courts. In terms of the power of the aurors, I would agree that they seem to acting for the British Ministry of Magic alone, although to my mind there is also some confusion about the ministry. Whether it is indeed just for British wizards, or if its parameters do in fact go somewhat further. However, I do not find it a stretch of the imagination to have crack aurors out in the field ? even if strictly speaking that is beyond the boundary of international co-operation. It is entirely possible that they were working with local law enforcement agencies. Perhaps there are extradition treaties between Britain and Albania's wizarding communities. We are not given any instances of them using their lethal weaponry when outside the UK, and finally, the wizarding community does not act like it's muggle counterpart in internal affairs, so must it when it comes to international affairs? Eileen again: And there's that puzzling question about whether Voldemort was a threat to Britian, Europe, or the whole world. The evidence is contradictory. Unless one sees Britian as the wizarding super-power. Given that JKR has stated that whilst Voldemort was after European domination first, but the world after, I can see no reason why other nations what want to harbour such a dangerous fugitive. He did after all remain a fugitive rather than a refugee. Perhaps Britain is a wizarding super-power, but in this instance I am happy to believe JKR; Voldemort was a world threat, but his first target was Britain. If Voldemort is to be seen as a terrorist does it matter whether the country he targets first is a super power or not? I suspect that he will not respect law whether national or international. I would agree that the nostalgia reflected in the bizarre currency etc seems to hark back to our "golden age", but the picture of terrorism and it's opponents is I believe a refletion of our modern world. Ali From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 16 12:34:21 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:34:21 -0000 Subject: PRESSURE COOKERs often develop cracks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45421 Pushing aside my deep desire to take on GulPlum's biblical argument...I would definitely get a few howlers from the mods for getting way too off-topic...I do want to quote one part. GulPlum wrote: >>Moldy further said: **blah blah blah what I said**<< I have had many nicknames over the years....never Moldy. That one is new. Must say I'm quite hurt GulPlum. Thought we were friends. I'll just assume you were tired and your fingers slipped a little while you walked the moderator's line between HP and OT posts. ;) But on to the task at hand... Marina, patron saint of the oppressed anti-MD activists wrote: >> Melody, you astonish me! Such a broad metathinking argument from an MD supporter. I am shocked! Shocked and apalled.<< Well, it is Grey Wolf's crusade against having meta-thinking and MD in the same sentence. Probably from too many run-ins with the wrong crowd of meta-thinking that set him off. I think meta-thinking and MD work can work quite well together, but then again I have an overactive imagination for bring odd things together. Marina got down to business then: > Okay, seriously -- the PRESSURE COOKER in no way enforces a "basic, > childlike" reading of the text. All it requires is that deeper > layers of meaning must be extrapolated from things that we've > actually seen or be told about in canon -- not from hypothetical > things that may have happened off-screen but that we don't know > anything about. Within that limitation, there is plenty of room to > speculate about mysteries, double meanings, and hidden motives. I did have a feeling I was simplifying your arguements to too low a common denominator. My main point of wonder is how are we able to distinguish what is hypothetically and what is honestly done behind the scenes? It is our opinion either way. We do suppose much of the inner working of Hogwarts often. We have no proof behind many of the actions and reactions of the staff. When Flitwick tells Potter he heard the special circumstances surrounding him becoming Seeker, we assume that Flitwick was told it off screen in let's say the faulty lounge. Not a hard jump to make, but it is a *logical* jump to make as well. Now, if I say that Flitwick heard it from the centaurs...let say he loves to talk philosophy with them at night by the campfire, that would be wrong by your standards. That jump is too broad to make. Completely legit in imagination, but not likely due to the fact we have no evidence to the fact that Flitwick has ever been in the Forest. Now, most in this groups would laugh at my statement and brush it off, because it is not based on canon...well give me a day or so and it might. ;) Now from my perspective, MD is based on *a lot* of canon. Pip!Squeak has done her homework. Using pre-given ideas of Snape the spy and Dumbledore has a plan, she has run with it and tried to find their tracks left in the sand. I see not large jump of the imagination in her line of logic. Just dialogue taken from a point of view not show yet in the series. It seems, to me, that your crusade against MD is that it takes too many assumptions that are not logical and are just imagined by us. I guess that is my question and point. Where is the fine line in the sand? What is hypothetical and what can legitimately be deduced behinds the paragraphs of Harry Potter? I am sorry but I have to go to work, but I will take up my line of thought later today. I hope this all makes sense. I will go back and reread you post so that I can better explain my objections. Until then, be kind. :) Melody From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 16 13:36:04 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:36:04 -0000 Subject: FILK: Dumbledore's Side Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45422 Dumbledore's Side to the tune of "Maggie's Farm" by Bob Dylan dedicated to the SYCOPHANTS Scene: Sometime circa 1980, Peter Pettigrew decides to switch teams. PETER: I ain't gonna work for Dumbledore's side no more. No, I ain't gonna work for Dumbledore's side no more. Well, I hate the way he lectures 'bout doing what is right, Dragging everyone around him into a losing fight. There's no way he'll defeat Voldemort. No, I ain't gonna work for Dumbledore's side no more. I ain't gonna work with Sirius Black no more. No, I ain't gonna work with Sirius Black no more. Well, he's always strutting 'round with that stupid flying bike. I think to Azkaban he should take a one-way hike. Dumb git has no idea what's in store. No, I ain't gonna work with Sirius Black no more. I ain't gonna work with Remus Lupin no more. No, I ain't gonna work with Remus Lupin no more. Well, he's always so damn noble, it makes me want to blow, What's he getting out of it, I swear I just don't know. The fool has picked the wrong side in this war. No, I ain't gonna work with Remus Lupin no more. I ain't gonna work with James and Lily no more. No, I ain't gonna work with James and Lily no more. Well, I used to be their friend, but now I'm in too deep. They're morons if they think their secret I will keep. They should've gone with Sirius or Dumbledore. No, I ain't gonna work with James and Lily no more. I ain't gonna work for Dumbledore's side no more. No, I ain't gonna work for Dumbledore's side no more. Well, everybody thinks I'm too weak to be a threat, I'm gonna teach them not to underestimate a rat. It'll be too late by the time they learn the score. No, I ain't gonna work for Dumbledore's side no more. Peter turns into a rat and slinks away. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From cindysphynx at comcast.net Wed Oct 16 14:29:02 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 14:29:02 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Operative!Arthur Attacks Auror!Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45423 "Aren't you supposed to be studying?" Abigail startled and let out a sort of strangled yell. She spun around in her chair to face the owner of the all-too-familiar voice that had seemed only inches from her left ear. "What are *you* doing here?" she panted. "How long have you been reading over my shoulder? How'd you find me?" Cindy smirked and straightened. "Well, you said you were typing at the computer farm on campus. What other campus could you possibly be talking about other than Canon College?" Abigail gaped at her. Cindy leaned over Abigail's shoulder again and studied the flickering screen. "I just wanted to stop by and tell you that you threw down some fine TBAY yesterday. Really first-rate. Oh, you've really got a knack for this." Abigail blushed a deep scarlet. "Really? You think so? I mean, it took me forever to write it, so I might never do another ?- " "Oh, Abigail. That's what everyone says after their first splash in the Bay. But you know what? They come back. They *always* come back for more. It's a *drug,* TBAY is. Ya gotta be careful, though. You can really *hurt* yourself if you do too much too soon. So pace yourself, OK?" "Maybe I could manage just one more . . . " Abigail said doubtfully. "I see you're still plumping for Auror!Arthur." Cindy eased herself into a chair in the next cubicle. "Looks like I'll have to pull out a few more canons for Operative!Arthur and *blast* Auror!Arthur once and for all. Now what is this Auror!Arthur argument again?" "Uh . . . " Abigail swallowed. "Auror!Arthur is firmly grounded in Elkins' assertion that the Wizarding World is in deep denial about the years of Voldemort's reign of terror. That the taboo on mentioning those times extends well past the whole He-Who-Must-Not- Be-Named thing. It is not considered at all proper to discuss Voldemort or anything having to do with him. I admit that Imperius! Arthur lends further credence to Arthur's silence in the intervening years, but he's hardly *necessary* --" "Imperius!Arthur is unnecessary!" Cindy broke in. "Why, I couldn't have said it better myself! Just don't tell Veronica that he's so very SCOW-worthy. She'll be crushed." "Uh, I won't," Abigail said. "See, I think that Arthur could have been an Auror and kept it a secret. If Arthur cherished his home as a sanctuary from the ugliness of his work, he might never say anything about it in front of his children. Or he might have made it clear after [Voldemort's] fall that he wouldn't brook any discussion of his previous job with the younger children, and Bill and Charlie would have caught the hint." "But doesn't that canon collapse under its own weight?" Cindy asked. "As you say, Arthur took Charlie to the office once. So if Arthur were really an Auror, he wasn't working very hard to hide it." "Well, if Auror!Arthur goes down in flames because of that canon, he's taking Operative!Arthur with him. Because that means Arthur didn't mind if Charlie knew what he did at the office as an Unspeakable, either." "Not at all!" Cindy cried, flinging her arms upward. A half-filled cup of coffee skittered across the cubicle and plopped to the floor. "That's why Operative!Arthur is so much better than Auror! Arthur or Imperius!Arthur. Operative!Arthur is an *operative!* He's a spy, covert, deep undercover, you know? Every part of his professional existence is geared toward covering up the fact that he is working at the highest level of MoM intelligence. So sure, Charlie went to the office all right. Charlie went to the Muggle Artifacts division, where Arthur has an office and all the trappings of a plain old bureaucrat. But Charlie never saw Arthur outside of his deep cover. None of the Weasleys have." "But don't Aurors maintain their secrecy, too?" Abigail asked. "There's no evidence of that in canon. In fact, Charlie seems to suggest that the identity of Aurors was widely known ?- so well known that Aurors like Moody became paranoid because of the very real fear of retaliation." Cindy reached over to Abigail's keyboard and punched up "Aboard the Hogwarts Express": ********* "He's retired, used to work at the Ministry," said Charlie. "I met him once when Dad took me into work with him. He was an auror ? one of the best . . . a Dark wizard catcher," he added, seeing Harry's blank look. "Half the cells in Azkaban are full because of him. He made himself loads of enemies, though . . . the families of people he caught, mainly . . . and I heard he's been getting really paranoid in his old age. Doesn't trust anyone anymore." ************ "See," Cindy continued. "I envision wizarding law enforcement as similar to muggle law enforcement. You have Aurors, who are like FBI agents, you know, cops of varying degrees of skill and training. Then you have Hit Wizards like the ones who apprehended Sirius Black -? they would be like SWAT teams or anti-terrorist specialists. I think the Unspeakables are one level more elite. They do the deep undercover stuff -? the James bond kind of stuff." Abigail frowned. "I dunno. I do seem to remember that when the Unspeakables were introduced during the QWC, not only did everybody seem to know what (if not who) they were, but they avoided them as well." "Well, I wouldn't say that. Arthur seems to know the two Unspeakables, but no one else really reacts to them," Cindy paged backward on Abigail's computer to "Bagman and Crouch": ************ " . . . and that's Bode and Croaker . . . they're Unspeakables . . . " "They're what?" "From the Department of Mysteries, top secret, no idea what they get up to . . . " *************** "So no one avoided the Unspeakables, and Arthur did know who they were," Cindy said. "I think Bode and Croaker are Unspeakables who simply work in that department. Operative! Arthur, on the other hand, is an Unspeakable who lives a life in deep cover and keeps his real and very dangerous and important missions a secret." Abigail rubbed her chin thoughtfully. "I just don't think Operative! Arthur is very... Bangy." Cindy threw her head back and laughed openly. "Ha! You're just trying to get a *rise* out of me with that, aren't you? Nice try, Abigail!" Several bystanders glared, and one irritable woman shushed them. "Oh, I'm dead serious," Abigail said evenly. "We know nothing about Unspeakables except that they work for the Department of Myseteries, which tells us absolutely nothing. By your own standards, Cindy, they belong on the GARBAGESCOW." Cindy tipped backward in her chair, catching herself before she toppled over. She pressed her hands to her cheeks, her eyes widened with shock. "Unspeakables belong *on the SCOW!* WHAT?!? Hold on just a minute there! Unspeakables are with the Department of Mysteries, right?" "Right." "Well, who else do we know from the Department of Mysteries? *ROOKWOOD,* that's who! ROOKWOOD, from the Pensieve! Rookwood, who is so Big that he is the only piece of information that is important enough to spring Karkaroff. The very mention of Rookwood's name draws *murmers* from the crowd. And there is no more significant red flag to signify Banginess than when a crowd *murmers.* Oh, Unspeakables from the Department of Mysteries Bang even when they're trying blend in. *No way* are Unspeakables SCOW-worthy." "Well, I'm still not convinced," said Abigail. "You have to explain away the very best canon for Imperius!Arthur. That Crouch/Moody calls on Harry, Neville and Ron in "The Unforgivables" is a *huge* clue for Imperius!Arthur. You thought I'd forgotten, hadn't you Cindy?" "Yes, that's a mighty big canon, I'll grant you that," Cindy said with a grimace. "But this is where I use my secret weapon: Eloise." Cindy reached over to Abigail's keyboard, and with a few quick keystrokes, Eloise's post lit up the screen. "Ah, here it is. Eloise explained that Sirius reports that Crouch Sr. authorised the uses of *the Unforgivables* against suspects. He doesn't say that it was only the Aurors who were allowed to use the Unforgivables. That means that other MoM employees were permitted to use the Unforgivables, including Imperius. So maybe Arthur wasn't a *victim* of the Imperius, but actually *used* it himself. Not only that, but we have evidence that Ministry wizards *could* use the Imperius - Crouch Sr. uses it himself, on his son." Cindy looked up from the screen, smiling appreciatively. "Oh, that Eloise is a *genius,* she is! Besides, it is quite possible that when Crouch/Moody says that the Imperius Curse gave the Ministry a lot of trouble, he could mean that Operative!Arthur's mission was to sort out who was acting under Imperius and who wasn't. That would explain why Arthur is so very irritated at Lucius Malfoy." "But why does Arthur have to be an operative with MoM?" Abigail mused. "Maybe he was an operative of some other organization ?- like The Dark Forces Defense League!" "Well, that's possible, it's possible. But there are some problems. Unspeakable Operative!Arthur explains so much ?- how Arthur knows so much, how he has the ear of the Minister of Magic, how he gets around the prohibition against flying cars. The Dark Forces Defense League, though? What the heck *is* that, anyway? The fact that Gilderoy Lockhart is an *honorary member* sure suggests that the organization itself is suspect. I mean, how savvy can they be over there at the Dark Forces Defense League if they give an honorary membership to a fraud like Lockhart? And if we're thinking Crouch authorized Ministry officials to use the Unforgivables, it certainly helps if Arthur is an official Unspeakable rather than some kind of weekend warrior. "So then," Cindy said, offering Abigail her Big Paddle. "Are you ready to dispatch Auror!Arthur in favor of Operative!Arthur?" "Well, I dunno. There's still the matter of that lame acronym you have. 'CLOAKANDDAGGERARTHUR [Covert Liaison Operative Arthur is the Key to Assured Non-violent Destruction of Diabolical Axis, with Global Governance and Equilibrium at Risk, from the Ascension of Ruthless Terrorists with Homicidal, Unspeakable Resolve].'" Abigail rolled her eyes in disapproval. "What's wrong with it?" Cindy asked, her hands curling into fists. "I'm with Eloise on this one. 'Non-violent?' Non-violent is *Bangy?* I profess myself disappointed, Cindy." "OK, OK. Let me see what I can do." Cindy reached for Abigail's dictionary and hurriedly flipped to a page in the middle. "Hmmm. N- word, I need an N-word. Um, 'Nasty'? Maybe 'Nauseous'? How about 'Nativism?" No, wait! I've got it!" Cindy slammed the dusty dictionary shut. She rose from her seat and cleared her throat significantly: "CLOAKANDDAGGERARTHUR [Covert Liaison Operative Arthur is the Key to Assured Nerve-racking Destruction of Diabolical Axis, with Global Governance and Equilibrium at Risk, from the Ascension of Ruthless Terrorists with Homicidal, Unspeakable Resolve]." Abigail blinked at her. "Isn't it *great?*" Cindy asked, beaming. "Oh, Eloise will be Ever So Pleased," Abigail said dryly. ***************** Cindy **************** For further explanation of the acronyms and theories in this post, visit Hypothetic Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% 20Files/hypotheticalley.htm and Inish Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 From crussell at arkansas.net Wed Oct 16 14:42:31 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 14:42:31 -0000 Subject: PRESSURE COOKERs often develop cracks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45424 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Of course Dumbledore has to prepare to make some sacrifices being a > leader in the horrible fight and all, but I think that willingly (and in my opinion unnecessary) forcing Voldemore to return will lead to too many sacrifices, which Dumbledore is not going to make. > IMO, you are correct when you say that Dumbledore did not force Voldemort to return-nor did he force the particular method with which the return was achieved. However, I do believe that he believed the return of Voldemort to be inevitable. But as to the idea that Dumbledore manipulated Voldemort in some way to use the method he chose-I do not accept it. This does not mean that Dumbledore is not aware of the "cracks" in Voldemort's plan. IMO, given our knowledge as to Dumbledore's opinion that Voldemort cannot be destroyed unless he resumes human form- we, the reader, are better informed as to the possible limitations of Voldemort's "new-found" humanity than he is. IMO, Voldemort is a ego-maniac-who in certain areas is unable to admit the possibility that something he has strove so hard to conceive may backfire on him. Some might say he learned his lesson when the AK aimed at baby Harry backfired on him-but perhaps, he hasn't. If we make a comparison between Voldemort and certain real- life ego-maniacs, we will see a pattern. IMO, history shows us the ego-maniacs seldom learn from their mistakes and more times than not it is this "blindness" that finally defeats them. By saying this, I am not saying that Dumbledore does not have a plan. What I am saying is this: Dumbledore may have multiple plans suitable to any possibility. IMO, this is the hallmark of brilliance-a leader who prepares for a multitude of possibilities and is not caught off guard when something happens that may or may not have been the most reasonable assumption. bugaloo37 From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 15:34:52 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:34:52 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Student Population In-Reply-To: <9D3DDF64-E0DE-11D6-93E0-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45425 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Pen Robinson wrote: > > On Monday, October 14, 2002, at 07:57 , Jackie wrote: > Jackie originally wrote: > > > ...edited... but can you prove that there are only 5 boys in > > Harry's *dorm*? ...edited... We only know the 5 boys in Harry's > > room, but there could be other rooms attached to that hall. > > ... here in America, in colleges, a Dorm is a building as well > > as a room. > > > Pen replied: > I'm pretty sure it is stated outright that Harry sees five > four-poster beds when he goes into the dorm for the first time. > > I'm afraid that 'dorm' and 'dormitory' in this country mean a > room, not a building . At university, students might live in a > Hall of Residence, but they wouldn't live in a dorm. > > ...edited... > > Pen Pen, I guess it's safe to assume you are from Britain. Clearly, there are other dorm *rooms* in this dormitory. Percy has his own dorm room. Fred, George, and Lee Jordan have a separate room. Colin Creevey and the others in his year have their own rooms. So there is no question that there are other Dorm rooms in the Griffindor Hall/Tower dormitory. The question then becomes are there other rooms for Harry year? Considering that the story is told from Harry's limited perspective and that some details have to be left out to keep the books from reaching encyclopedia length. I don't think we can say there are not. True, we can't say with absolute certainly that there are either. Again, there is nothing that flatly states that Harry's dorm room is the only dorm room for his year, or that state that those five boys are the only boys from his year, but I'm inclined to think there are more, but it's simply not practical to name every single player in the story. We know there are more boys in Colin Creevey's year but have any of them been names? Occassionally, you will hear about Colin and his friends, but those friends are never identified. Unless I've forgotten a lot of details, the story seems to imply that Colin is the only boy in his year. But that doesn't seem logical. Some people will point to the 20 brooms, 20 cauldrons, and 20 ear muffs to confirm the number of students, but, as I've stated before, I find that number very suspect. Things seem to be '20' a little to often. I think this is a general number that JKR latches on to as being not too big, not too small, just right when describing a group of 'things'. There are 20 cauldrons in the potions lab, but each student has their own cauldron as well. And what happens with classes that are larger than 20? Personally, I can't take the use of the number '20' as representing an exact value. But that's just me. So while I lean in the direction of another dorm room for Harry's year, I have to acknowledge that it's not clearly stated as so. By the same token, it's not clearly stated as not being so. We are left with our opinions on the matter. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 15:52:59 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:52:59 -0000 Subject: Rule Britannia! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45426 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "lucky_kari" wrote: Lucky Kari said: ...Big Edit... > Why are the aurors searching Europe for Voldemort? > > ...edited... The aurors are not an international force. > ...edited... > > Eileen An International Police force is not unprecidented in Europe. Let me remind you of Interpol (INTERnational POLice). Also, the United Nations forces have international authority. The things that Voldemort did must have been common knowledge through out Europe. So, I can see all European countries cooperating with the Aurors if there was even the slightest possibility that Voldemort might be in their country. Also, there is nothing to prevent the Aurors from acting as private detectives. Traveling to other countries as private citizens and investigating on their own. If they turn up nothing then no harm. And if they do find Voldemort, any country would be happy to have people experienced at fighting him available to assist them. I don't see British Auror acting on an Inter-European level as that hard too believe. Seems very reasonable to me. bboy_mn From oppen at mycns.net Wed Oct 16 07:30:57 2002 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 02:30:57 -0500 Subject: Hermione Granger is Ever So Evil? was:(Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Skeeter) References: <00d701c27493$a50e7d80$e2510043@hppav> Message-ID: <000701c27538$b7b7f560$09560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 45427 > > "Yes, I said I'd let her go free when we got back to London," said Hermione > with a smile Harry didn't much like, looking with satisfaction at the big > beetle buzzing around the room, "but that was _all_ I said, wasn't it? I > never, ever mentioned Memory Charms. Well, in _Hogwarts, a History,_ it > mentions in one of the footnotes that if you hit a transformed Animaga with > a Memory Charm while in Animagus form, that person will forget that he or > she was ever anything but an animal." > > "You mean---?" said Harry. A cold chill went down his back. Hermione > smiled at him, rather patronizingly, he thought, and patted his knee. > > "Yes. When I opened the jar, I had my wand at the ready, and a quick > 'Obliviate!' made sure that Miss Rita Skeeter'll never know she was ever > anything but a beetle. She doesn't remember being a human, she doesn't know > how to turn back into a human. Even if someone did the reverse-Animagism > charm on her...that is, if anybody but we three knew she was an > Animagus...she'd still be a drooling idiot, not fit for her former job, or > for any job." Her evil smile suddenly changed to a gamine grin. "Or any > job save Minister of Magic, and we already have one of _those!_" > > Seriously, though, I would not be surprised to find that Hermione is a > pretty steely, ruthless character under that "good girl, gets good grades" > exterior. When she wants something, she'll do what she has to to get it, > and consequences can take care of themselves. She wanted to take absolutely > maximum advantage of her time at Hogwarts, to the point of nearly breaking > her health with over-use of the Time-Turner. She stood up to Ron over > Crookshanks, instead of getting rid of him when he tried to attack > Scabbers/Pettigrew. She stood up to the rest of the school and received > opinion of the Wizard World over house-elves, even when her _two best > friends in the whole world_ were trying to discourage her. > > In fact...the books can be interpreted in a way that allows Hermione Granger > to be Ever So Evil. Evil, after all, does _not_ have to equate to sending > Valentines to Voldemort---I would say one of the evil-er people in the canon > so far was none other than Gilderoy Lockhart, who is _not_ a DE. Hermione > could easily reconcile being Ever So Evil and Harry Potter's Best Pal And > Right-Hand Woman---if she wants to be ruler of the Wizard World, she can't > allow Voldemort to try for the same job, can she? She works against the > DEs, but then, the DEs are out to get her just because of who her parents > were, and they work for the guy who wants to rule the WW instead of her. > She wants to liberate the house-elves---who have powerful magic and whom we > know to be very willing to serve and to be grateful to those who do them > favors. She could come forth as the leader of the wizards and witches who > are tired of the corrupt, inept rule of the "old wizarding families" like > the Malfoys---and the Weasleys. I'm sure that there are Muggle-borns who're > tired of the attitude the Malfoys have, and we don't know how common being > Muggle-born is, do we? > > (NB: I would be gobsmacked if Hermione _did_ turn out to be Ever So > Evil---but then, I wasn't expecting Scabbers to be anything but a rat, and > JKR has been known to surprise us.) In honor of my nifty new theory, I've come up with a couple of neat acronyms for it (Apologies if there already _are_ acronyms for this idea, but I couldn't resist): HIDDEN DEPTHS: Hermione Inwardly Deeply Desires Evil Nastiness; Deferring Effective Putsches Till Hermione Strikes HIDDEN DANGER: Hermione Inwardly Deeply Desires Extremely Nasty Deeds; Acting Nice Gains Ephemeral Respect From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 17:28:09 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:28:09 -0000 Subject: Task 3 point of view with popcorn. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45428 Steve (aka bboy_mn) kindly posted awhile ago:I'm with Melody here. The goal hoops are 50ft high. The stands are > raised to give everyone a good view of the game. That would imply > sloped bleachers rising from between 30ft and 50ft with the 'top box' > between 50ft and 60ft (just my best guess. I'm sure World cup was > bigger.). Possibly as much as a 30ft to 70ft slope of seats. > Fyre Wood (aka ME) replies What if the stands are just slightly above the hoops for the top boxes? Would it be just a tad nicer to be a little *above* the action instead of just "face on" with it? Perhaps maybe 10 feet higher at the most so that you could see across the entire Quidditch Pitch. Steve (aka bboy_mn) continues: >>>>>So people in the maze would have certainly been in view at least part > of the time. Also, we are never given the spectator's point of view. > We don't know what happened outside the maze. It's possible that there > was a magic bubble with their name floating over each contestant, > giving the spectators an indication of each contestants location. It > could even give a limited commentary like 'Harry meets Sphinx' or > 'Harry meet upside down charm'. Also, remember that the maze went > silent as soon as Harry entered it, so if there was a running > commentary, he couldn't hear it. Since he couldn't hear it, neither > could we. Fyre replies once again: Perhaps the bushes prevented everyone inside the maze from hearing the commentary. Spells could have been put around the exterior to keep the sound out and the concentration in. Nothing would put more pressure on the contestants in the Quad-wizard tournament like hearing how far ahead or behind the others were. Steve (aka bboy_mn): >>>>>>I agree that it would have been very boring with nothing to do for an > hour or two but look at some hedges. Fyre Wood: Neville would have liked it =) Steve (aka bboy_mn): >>>>> > Speaking of snacks, do you think wizards eat popcorn? Sorry, just a > thought that can to me. Fyre Wood: Of course, except that it has to have some crazy name for it. Think "Grandpa Bob's Extra Popper Popcorn" or "Butter Blast--the Popcorn that has an *explosive* butter taste in your mouth." I think this is why JKR writes the books and not me =) --Fyre Wood, who now contemplates the possibility of other snacks.. and then realizes she's also now hungry. From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 17:36:28 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:36:28 -0000 Subject: Gryffindors-Hermione going evil/new acronym (was RE: Hermione Granger is Ever In-Reply-To: <000701c27538$b7b7f560$09560043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45429 Eric Oppen wrote: > > > > (NB: I would be gobsmacked if Hermione _did_ turn out to be Ever So > > Evil---but then, I wasn't expecting Scabbers to be anything but a rat, and > > JKR has been known to surprise us.) > Fyre Wood (me) replies: But you're forgetting one major thing mentioned in the book: "There is no good or evil, there is only power and those too weak to seek it." --Voldemort. Hence why i doubt that Neville or any other *Gryffindor* in Harry's year (with the exception of Ronald "Ron" Weasley) are going to go evil. I'm sorry, but I highly doubt that Hermione would decide to suddenly turn evil and fight for the dark side.... but Ron would do so because he's oh so jealous of Harry "I'm God" Potter and would just love a chance to finally get himself into the limelight. Eric also posted: > In honor of my nifty new theory, I've come up with a couple of neat acronyms > for it (Apologies if there already _are_ acronyms for this idea, but I > couldn't resist): > > HIDDEN DEPTHS: Hermione Inwardly Deeply Desires Evil Nastiness; Deferring > Effective Putsches Till Hermione Strikes > > HIDDEN DANGER: Hermione Inwardly Deeply Desires Extremely Nasty Deeds; > Acting Nice Gains Ephemeral Respect Fyre Wood replies: WOW, those totally rock. What about this one to continue this, even though I highly doubt that Herm's evil...?? MUD PIE Mudblood Undeniably Deceiving Peers, Is Evil! Haha! I finally did one that was longer than four letters. --Fyre Wood, who now waves the NINE flag in one hand, and MUDPIE in the other. =) From ronib at mindspring.com Wed Oct 16 17:44:25 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:44:25 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Operative!Arthur Attacks Auror!Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45430 Veronica was dozing blissfully in the sun on the deck of the Imerpius! Arthur Trimaran, listening to people chatting happily and the relaxing sounds of band playing in the bow of the ship. There were a few odd scuffling noises coming from below, but Veronica recognized the brief shriek and the loud thud and understood that Cindy must have been chasing Abigail around the cabin with her paddle again. Veronica wondered for the hundredth time if she should have put more distance between the Operative!Arthur and Auror!Arthur cabins, but realized it was too late now. Suddenly a shrill siren pierced the calm. Veronica sat up and looked around just as a crewman came running by. "You aren't the cabin boy with my Pina COloda!" she fumed. "And what is that awful racket?" "That's the call for all hands to man their stations, Captain," the crewman explained somewhat excitedly, and with understandable concern. What kind of Captain wouldn't know that? "What in the world for?" she demanded of the young man. "What is so important to wake me up from my nap and delay my Pina Colada?!" "We're under attack, Captain!" "No, we're not," she answered dismissively. "Why, we're still in the Bay, for gosh sake. Besides, regardless of what you might here on FoxNews, WE ARE NOT AT WAR! For that matter, this is a pleasure ship, not a battle ship!." "Well, I don't know about that," answered the man nervously, "but I did see the explosion that hit us. It was Abigail; she said that Imperius!Arthur wasn't *necessary*!" "What?" Veronica cried, jumping to her feet and lifting the frightened crewman by the front of his shirt. "Are you sure?" The man stuttered for a moment but managed to nod his head, "And Cindy agreed with her," he muttered softly. "Oh, the humanity! This is sabotuage!" Veronica cried. "Here I politely welcomed them aboard the Imperius!Arthur--I bought them Pina Coladas all afternoon, and now I learn this! What did they say?" "Abigail and Cindy were arguing about Auror!Arthur and Opertative!Arthur," he explained, "and Abigail said that Imperius! Arthur was not necessary, helpful, but not necessary. She says that Arthur was an Auror, but because of the all the terror of the war Years, he keeps that a secret. There was a lot of stuff about sactuary at home away from the ugliness of his work, but Cindy protested that he was quiet about his past because he was an undercover agent." "So now Arthur is James Bond--that is bangy," Veronica muttered under her breath with a laugh. "But what about the Unforgivable Curses scene where Moody calls on Ron to name the Imperius curse?" Veronica demanded. "They used . . . Eloise," he answered, but when Veronica looked dumbfounded, he continued. "Eloise explained that Sirius reports that Crouch Sr. authorised the uses of *the Unforgivables* against suspects. He doesn't say that it was only the Aurors who were allowed to use the Unforgivables. That means that other MoM employees were permitted to use the Unforgivables, including Imperius. So maybe Arthur wasn't a *victim* of the Imperius, but actually *used* it himself." "But that's not parallel," Veronica protested. "The whole purpose of that can(n)on on board the Imperius!Arthur is that parallelism. Neville's parents were tortured with Crusiatus; Harry's parents were killed with AK. If Arthur merely *used* Imperius, or investigated those who claimed to have been controlled by the Imperius curse, it's no longer parallel! Besides, I just can't believe that Crouch, Sr. would be nutty enough to allow just *anyone* at the MoM to perform the unforgivable curses. I always assumed it was just the Aurors or folks in Enforcement who were actively hunting Death Eaters. Can you image if suddenly everyone who worked there was allowed to enslave others with Imperius, torture them with Crusiatus, or even kill them cold-bloodedly with AK? "And what about second chances and proving yourself," Veronica demanded. "Everyone is allowed to prove themself in these books. Harry (too many times to list), Hagrid (getting Harry, getting the stone, being made a teacher), Hermione (after the Halloween fight with the Troll, with Devil's Snare), Ron (McGonagall's chess game, under the Whomping Willow and in the Shrieking Shack), Sirius (when he explained, and when he got Werewolf!Lupin away from the kids), and Snape's time is coming, I'm sure. How is Arthur going to prove himself by us learning that he was always some important secret agent? "And another thing," she continued, still screaming at the poor crewman. "If Arthur was either a great Auror or an Opertative *without being Imperio'd* how does that explain his poor financial situation. Even if it is a cover that he is now working in Muggle Artifacts, the MoM would take better care of such an important person- -No! Something is bothering Arthur. Look how tortured he is when he and the kids return to the Burrow after the QWC. That man knew some pain at the hands of the Death Eaters if not from You-Know-Who himself. He did something that bothers him to this day, something he could not control--I believe that, and I won't be disuaded until I read new can(n)on that says differently. "No, I can see how Auror!Arthur or Operative!Arthur might explain some things, but they don't seem complete without Imperius!Arthur!" "Yes, sir, Captain, sir," the crewman said shakily. "I know that, sir, that's why I serve on board the Imperius!Arthur." Veronica suddenly realized that she was still man-handling the poor fellow and released him. "Why don't you go and ask Abigail and Cindy if I might have a word. That Paddle is dangerous enough, but firing off can(n)ons while aboard . . . that's just plain crazy!" From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Wed Oct 16 18:06:45 2002 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:06:45 -0000 Subject: Dormitories and Hogwarts Student Population In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45431 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Pen Robinson wrote: > > > > On Monday, October 14, 2002, at 07:57 , Jackie wrote: > > > Jackie originally wrote: > > > > > ...edited... but can you prove that there are only 5 boys in > > > Harry's *dorm*? ...edited... We only know the 5 boys in Harry's > > > room, but there could be other rooms attached to that hall. > > > ... here in America, in colleges, a Dorm is a building as well > > > as a room. > > > > > > Pen replied: > > I'm pretty sure it is stated outright that Harry sees five > > four-poster beds when he goes into the dorm for the first time. > > > > I'm afraid that 'dorm' and 'dormitory' in this country mean a > > room, not a building . At university, students might live in a > > Hall of Residence, but they wouldn't live in a dorm. > > > > ...edited... > > > > Pen > > Pen, I guess it's safe to assume you are from Britain. > > Clearly, there are other dorm *rooms* in this dormitory. > Percy has his own dorm room. Fred, George, and Lee Jordan have > a separate room. Colin Creevey and the others in his year have > their own rooms. So there is no question that there are other > Dorm rooms in the Griffindor Hall/Tower dormitory. [snip] There has never been any mention of a Gryffindor Dormitory as a term for the whole of the part of the castle set apart for Gryffindor as far as I can remember - I have only noted the term Gryffindor Tower. There have however been frequent mentions of the term dormitory for the single room Harry shares with the other four boys, as well as the plural term dormitories, referring for instance to the girls' dormitories, implying to me that dormitory in the Harry Potter-series is a term referring to a single room. That Percy sleeps in an other room that Harry, and that Fred, George, and Lee sleep in another room again, does not contradict that dormitory in the Harry Potter books consistently refers to single rooms. Some quotes: >From PS, Chapter Seven, The Sorting Hat, ca. three pages before the end of that chapter: "The first-years followed Percy through the chattering crowds, out of the Great Hall, and up the marble staircase." and, right at the last page of same chapter: "Percy directed the girls through one door to their dormitory and the boys through another. At the top of a spiral staircase - they were obviously in one of the towers - they found their beds at last: five fourposters hung with deep-red velvet curtains." >From PoA, Chapter Five, The Dementor, right at the end of that chapter: "They reached their familiar, circular dormitory with its five four- poster beds and Harry, looking around, felt he was home at last." >From GoF, Chapter Twelve, The Triwizard Tournament, almost at the end of that chapter: "Hermione cast the merrily dancing flames a dark look, and Harry distinctly heard her mutter 'slave labour', before bidding them goodnight, and disappearing through the doorway to the girls' dormitories." As for the student-number debate, I am left with the impression that JKR has changed her view of the size of Hogwarts with the progression of the books; the majority of the evidence pointing towards small student-numbers seem to be established in PS and CoS, while the evidence pointing towards larger numbers seems mainly established in PoA and GoF. My view tends towards the higher numbers, mostly because of evidence of the wizarding economy shown in the books, and economy which needs to be supported somehow. And while in the muggle world, a town of a small population is connected to the rest of the country, the wizard-population of Great Britain stands mostly on its own. Best regards Christian Stub? From wpfositpoi at yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 16:16:56 2002 From: wpfositpoi at yahoo.com (wpfositpoi) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:16:56 -0000 Subject: O.W.L. exams Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45432 Does anyone think that the O.W.L. exams will play an important part in Book 5? Remember the kids will be taking them in their fifth year. JK Rowling must have created them for a reason and she put a lot of effort into reminding us about them in Book 4. "wpfositpoi" From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 18:39:14 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:39:14 -0000 Subject: Wizard's and popcorn. (Was: Task 3 w/ popcorn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45433 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: ...BIG SNIP... > Steve (aka bboy_mn): > >>>>> > > Speaking of snacks, do you think wizards eat popcorn? Sorry, just a > > thought that can to me. > > > Fyre Wood: > Of course, except that it has to have some crazy name for it. > Think "Grandpa Bob's Extra Popper Popcorn" or "Butter Blast--the > Popcorn that has an *explosive* butter taste in your mouth." > > I think this is why JKR writes the books and not me =) > > --Fyre Wood, who now contemplates the possibility of other snacks.. > and then realizes she's also now hungry. The moderators are going to kill me for such an irreverent and mostly irrelevant post but ... How about - Wizzie's Instant Popping Indian* Corn - "Pops in Your Mouth, Not in the Pan" Salted buttered kernels of unpop popcorn, just toss a few kernels in your mouth and they instantly pop. It's fun and tasty too. No fuss, no muss, no fire, no heat; eat it anywhere. A compact snack that's easy to use. Available at fine wizard stores near you. Try some today! Just don't put too many in your mouth at once, or your mouth will overflow. Steve bboy_mn (*Side Note: popcorn comes from the American Indians.) From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 18:47:47 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:47:47 -0000 Subject: Malfoy and others as Prefects Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45434 >From what I've read, it looks as though 1-2 students are chosen from each house to become a prefect. Now that Harry and company are getting to be upper class, do you think that there's the possibility of perhaps any of them becoming prefects? I honestly see this: Slytherin Pansy Parkinson or Draco Malfoy Hufflepuff Hanna Abbot or Ernie MacMillon (they're the only ones we've seen) Ravenclaw Your guess is as good as mine Gryffindor Hermione Granger or Neville Longbottom I don't see Harry becoming one because that would be too easy. He can't kill Voldemort and also become a Prefect, a Quidditch star, etc etc etc. This might be good for Neville, since perhaps all he needs is just a little push to get him started. Wouldn't it be nice to finally see him gain confidence. --Fyre Wood, who wants to become a prefect too! From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Oct 16 20:41:57 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:41:57 -0000 Subject: Malfoy and others as Prefects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45435 Draco is in my opinion pretty sure, also Hermione. I like Neville very much and I hope he will become prefect (I think I even have voted for him), but I don't really think that someone, who always forgots his passwords will become a prefect. But we will see. About the other houses: Maybe this is a good oportunity, to introduce some other pupils from Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff. Maybe Susan Bones will become a prefect and Harry will be introduced to her past. Hickengruendler From gandharvika at hotmail.com Wed Oct 16 21:03:56 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:03:56 +0000 Subject: [HP4Grownups]Theory of the Seventh Son(FILK) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45436 Theory of the Seventh Son (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _House of the Rising Sun_ by the Animals) Listen to it here: http://www.friscosoldies.com/juke4.html There is a theory on TBay They call it "The Seventh Son" And it's ensnared the minds of many a Potter fan My God, I think I'm one Arthur was an Auror For the Ministry But came under the Imperious curse Cast by a D.E. Now Arthur against his own will Killed his third born son They say they have the canon to back it up But wait, I've just begun Oh people, let me tell you About our ol' boy, Ron He has latent psychic powers now Because he is the seventh son Only time will tell when we can see If this theory's seaworthy But they've got a bunch of acronyms Down on Inish Alley There is a theory on TBay They call it "the Seventh Son" And it's ensnared the minds of many a Potter fan My God, I think I'm one -Gail B...hoping she's got the theory down correctly...it's a cool song though, eh? _________________________________________________________________ Broadband?Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Wed Oct 16 21:15:22 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:15:22 +0100 Subject: O.W.L. exams/Prefects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021016211934.0096c360@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45437 At 16:16 16/10/02 +0000, wpfositpoi wrote: >Does anyone think that the O.W.L. exams will play an important part >in Book 5? Remember the kids will be taking them in their fifth >year. JK Rowling must have created them for a reason and she put a >lot of effort into reminding us about them in Book 4. I would think it's self-evident that they will. In the Real World (wassat??) GCSEs (or O Levels as they used to be) are the focus, focal point and ultimately the ONLY think English 15 year-olds think about. Or at least *should* be the only thing they think about, which isn't necessarily the case as their hormones are going somewhat haywire, and they have other things on their minds. :-) Assuming JKR will take her own school experiences (both as pupil and teacher) as a guide (and there's no reason to expect she won't judging by the books to date), selecting which subjects the Trio will be taking, LONG cramming sessions, mock exams and then the exams themselves towards the end of the year, will be the academic central points of Book Five. It'll be interesting to see how the pressure of his forthcoming exams will impact on Harry's extra-curricular activities, and vice-versa. There'll also be the additional subject of Prefect selection, a topic Fyre Wood has also raised - canon indicates that one Fifth year boy and girl from each House will be selected, and there are several directions JKR could take this. We have no canon on the basis for prefect selection (appointment?), but again Real World (huh?) parallels could be an indication. Different schools have different processes and different selection criteria, but *usually*, some degree of academic achievement is involved. Frequently (but very far from universally!) the brightest kids are the prime candidates. It's important that the teachers (Head of House in particular) trust the Prefects, so a (relatively) clean sheet in terms of misbehaving or breaking school rules is required. A good prefect is a confident prefect, preferably with some leadership qualities (and/or a thick skin). In an ideal world, a prefect would also be liked and respected (or at least feared), so that the younger kids will do what they're told. As a result, from the available candidates, Hermione's a fairly safe shoe-in for Gryffindor girl, but as for the boys, there are no ideal candidates. Harry has a chequered past when it comes to breaking school rules (besides, as has been stated before, it would be dramatically unfulfilling for him to have yet another feather in his cap!); Ron is probably seen more as a follower than a leader (although I would submit that his leadership qualities surpass Harry's). Neville is considered a bit of a pushover and not too good academically (not to mention having a notoriously bad memory), and Seamus is a bit of a blur. I propose to play my wild card and suggest my favourite shadowy Gryffindor Fifth Year-to-be, Dean Thomas. As I never stop pointing out, we know next to nothing about him and he's always in the background. He's not as closely aligned to Harry and his adventures as Harry's other dorm-mates and making him prefect would be a good way to give us some (undoubtedly bangy) information about his past. As for the other houses, we don't really know many Fifth Years-to-be, so JKR could either go down the route of introducing us to those we don't know very well (or at all), but my preference is that she'll go with people we've already met, to reduce the number of new characters. As I've said in other discussions in other contexts, I would expect that now we're past the series' half-way point, we've already met (if briefly) all the characters who will have an important part in the remaining plot. -- GulPlujm AKA Richard, who can't stop wondering about Dean's significance... From cmikhailovic at yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 18:54:40 2002 From: cmikhailovic at yahoo.com (cmikhailovic) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:54:40 -0000 Subject: Analyzing Fred and George SS/PS In-Reply-To: <020301c273ea$ef84e240$66a0cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45438 Also, page 190 in the US Scolastic paperback edition: ~During the first Quidditch match, when Harry's broom begins bucking: "The whole crowd was on its feet watching, terrified, as the Weasleys flew up to try and pull Harry safely onto one of their brooms, but it was no good -- every time they got near him, the broom would jump higher still. They dropped lower and circled beneath him, obviously hoping to catch him if he fell." Catja From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Wed Oct 16 21:41:01 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:41:01 +0100 Subject: Wizarding world government Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45439 Hi all Regarding the government of the WW, I think that we can make a few guesses about the most likely structure, because of the application of theories from our world that can be carried over to the WW. For example, the government of the WW must be a fairly basic democratic with as little interference in the private affairs of its citizens as possible. The reason, carried over from our world, is that the wizards are always armed with wands, which can be used as offensive weapons. Someone, I forget who but I'll look it up, said that an armed populace means a democraticy, while an unarmed populace can be something less repersentive. Second guess: Democratises don't fight amongst themselves (or at least I can't think of an example) and therefore there will probably be no wizarding equivalent of the World Wars. For them, perhaps, there will be no nations, as we understand the term, but merely administrate centres. Therefore, the concerns from the 'rule Britannica' thread are simply not valid, the aurors could cross the boundaries between the administrative centres without trouble. Just my few pennies Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Ali at zymurgy.org Wed Oct 16 22:10:52 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:10:52 -0000 Subject: Wizarding world government In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45440 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: > Hi all > > Regarding the government of the WW, I think that we can make a few guesses about the most likely structure, because of the application of theories from our world that can be carried over to the WW. > > For example, the government of the WW must be a fairly basic democratic with as little interference in the private affairs of its citizens as possible. The reason, carried over from our world, is that the wizards are always armed with wands, which can be used as offensive weapons. Someone, I forget who but I'll look it up, said that an armed populace means a democraticy, while an unarmed populace can be something less repersentive. I hope that you're not implying that countries where offensive weapons are not allowed (ie most of Europe) must somehow be less democratic than those which permit the bearing of arms ! You might cause a little war if that was your intent! Also, we have no indication as to whether the MoM is elected or is an unelected bureaucrat. We do not know the extent of the WW democracy, or lack of it. > > Second guess: Democratises don't fight amongst themselves (or at least I can't think of an example) and therefore there will probably be no wizarding equivalent of the World Wars. I'm not sure that I understand you here. Democracies don't fight each other? Perhaps that would be our dream. Whatever we think about WWII, it should never be forgotten that Hitler was originally democratically elected - even if he took totalitarian action after that point. Whilst we all seek a true democracy, the reality is that our own democracies also have their pitfalls and are rarely "democratic" in the original meaning of the word. >For them, perhaps, there will be no nations, as we understand the term, but merely administrate centres. Therefore, the concerns from the 'rule Britannica' thread are simply not valid, the aurors could cross the boundaries between the administrative centres without trouble. We already have evidence that there is a British MoM and a Bulgarian MoM. We know that British wizards support British teams just as their muggle counterparts do. This suggests that they still see themselves as separate nations rather more than simply administrative centres. I can believe that aurors cross boundaries - with or without local support, but the fact remains that there are boundaries to cross. Ali From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Oct 16 22:11:20 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:11:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizarding world government Message-ID: <14a.15fa2217.2adf3e08@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45441 In a message dated 16/10/2002 22:42:49 GMT Standard Time, christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com writes: > For example, the government of the WW must be a fairly basic democratic with > as little interference in the private affairs of its citizens as possible. > The reason, carried over from our world, is that the wizards are always > armed with wands, which can be used as offensive weapons. Someone, I > forget who but I'll look it up, said that an armed populace means a > democraticy, while an unarmed populace can be something less repersentive. > > I have to reply to this. Remember that this is Britain that we are talking about in the main. We *are* a democracy and our populace is, thank goodness, for the main part *unarmed*. JKR is not writing from the standpoint of one who lives in a country where the right to bear arms is equated with democratic rights. Quite the contrary. Historically, there have been many civilisations which were not democracies where bearing arms was the norm. Since the WW *does* appear archaic, I don't think that bearing arms in itself suggests it is particularly democratic. What it says to me is that the Muggle government must interfere hardly at all with the WW, as carrying a wand would certainly be classed as carrying an offensive weapon, which is illegal. Hence, yes, political structures and concepts of nationality may be different. But they are still there, as evidenced by the need for a Dept of International Magical Co-operation (or whatever - the canon's upstairs with sleeping child). Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From robgonz0 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 21:50:21 2002 From: robgonz0 at yahoo.com (Robert Gonzalez) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:50:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Skeeter References: Message-ID: <011001c2755e$078f4280$18fea8c0@WorkGroup> No: HPFGUIDX 45442 ----- Original Message ----- >From: K-lo >Which leads me to wonder how long Hermione will be holding on to Skeeter in >OBug? form? How will she know what Rita knows? She mentioned that she?d >hold Rita to writing nothing bad for a year (last chapter, GOF), but how is >she going to hold her to that? >-Padamanmage me: I think Hermione will hold Rita to that by threatening her with the fact that she is an unregistered animagus. Blackmail as it were, another tidbit for the "Hermione is evil" people. =) Rob [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Wed Oct 16 22:45:45 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 23:45:45 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwarts Student Population In-Reply-To: References: <9D3DDF64-E0DE-11D6-93E0-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021016221551.0096f400@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45443 At 15:34 16/10/02 +0000, Steve wrote: >Clearly, there are other dorm *rooms* in this dormitory. Point of British English usage (as it happens, the American definition appears to be broader) : a "dormitory" (or "dorm", which is the word I'll use to save typing) without qualification is a single room with (usually) several beds which serves as a communal sleeping area. Strictly speaking, though, it is little more than a synonym for "bedroom". Derivatives, such as "dorm wing", "dorm floor" or even "dorm buildings" are collections of dormitories or appropriate size. JKR's use of the word throughout the books consistently fits in with standard British usage (any other usage would indeed sound strange). "Harry's dorm" is described in each book as a circular room at the top of Gryffindor Tower. It has a single door and contains five beds. "Dormitories" are referred to fairly frequently as the collection of girls' and boy's bedrooms respectively, which again fits in with standard usage. The room in which Harry sleeps is also further referred to as "his" dorm. JKR never refers to the whole of Gryffindor Tower or its top floors as a "dormitory" (singular). >Percy has his own dorm room. Fred, George, and Lee Jordan have a separate >room. Colin Creevey and the others in his year have their own rooms. So >there is no question that there are other Dorm rooms in the Griffindor >Hall/Tower dormitory. Quite. Every year has its own dorm. It's even possible that senior year pupils have individual dorms (they did in my boarding school). Furthermore, it is not impossible that some years' students have more than one dorm, but as we've never been to any dorm other than Harry's, it's not possible to say. On that topic, I just noticed something: In CoS, when Percy encounters PJP'd Harry & Ron (aka Crabbe & Goyle), he says: "Well, get off to your dormitories" (Note plural usage!). Now then, does this indicate that Crabbe & Goyle sleep in separate dorms, or that Percy simply doesn't know and is covering all eventualities? Incidentally, the Hospital Wing (to which, incidentally, I constantly refer non-canonically in another thread as the "Infirmary" from personal habit) has its own "dormitory". >The question then becomes are there other rooms for Harry year? >Considering that the story is told from Harry's limited perspective >and that some details have to be left out to keep the books from >reaching encyclopedia length. I don't think we can say there are not. >True, we can't say with absolute certainly that there are either. CoS (p. 67, UK ed): "They hurried up it, right to the top, and at last reached the door of their old dormitory, which now had a sign on it saying SECOND YEARS." It doesn't say "second years room 1" or "Finnigan, Longbottom, Potter, Weasley, Thomas". It simply says "second years". If there was another dorm for the hypothetical remaining second years, what does the sign on *their* room say, and how did these hypothetical pupils know that "second years" written on Harry & Co's door didn't refer to them? Or, as it's the top room in the tower, how come Harry & Co didn't stop at the the hypothetical other second years' dorm and go there, thinking "they've put us in a different dorm to the one we had last year". After all, there was no indication that they would necessarily keep the room they had the previous year (as it happens, from my own experience and from what I've heard happens at other boarding schools, pupils are generally shuffled around, not keeping the same dorm from year to year). >We know there are more boys in Colin Creevey's year but have any of them >been names? Occassionally, you will hear about Colin and his friends, but >those friends are never identified. Unless I've forgotten a lot of >details, the story seems to imply that Colin is the only boy in his year. >But that doesn't seem logical. All it implies is that Colin is the only boy in his year who shows an interest in Harry, and therefore is the only one Harry notices. (It's normal not to pay attention to kids in classes junior to one's own.) >Some people will point to the 20 brooms, 20 cauldrons, and 20 ear >muffs to confirm the number of students, but, as I've stated before, I >find that number very suspect. Things seem to be '20' a little to >often. I think this is a general number that JKR latches on to as >being not too big, not too small, just right when describing a group >of 'things'. There are 20 cauldrons in the potions lab, but each >student has their own cauldron as well. And what happens with classes >that are larger than 20? Personally, I can't take the use of the >number '20' as representing an exact value. But that's just me. Hmmm... it's a pretty exact number, and it's consistent. If nothing else, JKR is pretty consistent about most of the details which immediately surround Harry and there is no reason to distrust the recurring 20 pieces of equipment for Harry's shared classes, when every other surface-reading detail points to 20 pupils. Unless you have some canon example on which to base your disbelief? As for what happens if there are more than 20 pupils, I would point out that the "20 objects" examples you quoted are all *portable*. *Easily* portable. There is absolutely no reason to suspect that the teachers do not prepare for their lessons and, knowing how many pupils they are going to teach, supply appropriate quantities of required materials or equipment. And that's even ignoring the fact that these people can do *magic*. >So while I lean in the direction of another dorm room for Harry's >year, I have to acknowledge that it's not clearly stated as so. By the >same token, it's not clearly stated as not being so. I see the "second years" label as quite conclusive, apart from all the other implied information. >We are left with our opinions on the matter. And more than a few facts which you seem to have forgotten when forming yours. :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who's always thought that facts are the best basis for informed opinions. :-) From skelkins at attbi.com Thu Oct 17 00:08:30 2002 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 00:08:30 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Weasley Predisposition To Imperius? In-Reply-To: <20021014075421.43083.qmail@web40309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45444 Elkins smiles across the sand to Lilac, Nicole and Gail, who are standing hesitantly at the shores of Theory Bay, all three of them decked out in CONNIVING CHICK'S REVENGE life-jackets. She waves shyly at them. People who can filk always make Elkins feel unaccountably shy, as she herself cannot tell a balalaika from a theorbo, a fluegelhorn from a clarion, a celesta from a harmonium, a lithophone from a marimba. Although every once in a while, when the wind is southerly and the weather clear, she *can* manage to discern a hawk from a hand-saw. Just. ******************************************************** Lilac (also sporting a set of FAT CHANCE AT BALL water wings, just for good measure) wrote: > Here's one thought I had about this...what if Arthur was under > Imperius *before* Ron and Ginny were born and that *bits of Imperio > magic* were passed along, not so much genetically as it were, but > *magically*? And Anna suggested something very similar, when she proposed that Neville might have somehow been magically affected by his parents' exposure to the Cruciatus. Hmmm. Frightened by Imperius in utero, eh? (Or, in Neville's case, frightened by Cruciatus in *retroactive* utero.) Well, it's possible. It does strike me, though, that in terms of the thematic emphasis on blood vs choice, the distinction between a genetic predisposition and one caused by the magical equivalent of parental chromosomal damage is really moot. In either case, you're still talking about a predisposition which is beyond the individual's control and not even strictly speaking a matter of "nurture," or of upbringing. It's still a heritable condition, even if it is not genetically determined. Even in the real world, many of the things that we believe to be "heritable" are now believed to be not *strictly* genetically determined, but also largely a matter of somatic environmental factors, like parental hormonal balance and body chemistry and the like. So I don't know if I think that there's all that much difference, really, between a genetic magical predisposition and an "environmental" one that nonetheless has an inescapable and quasi- somatic effect on children. It comes to exactly the same thing, doesn't it? I'm not really all that concerned, though. I don't honestly think that JKR is trying to make a case for individual volition being able to conquer *everything.* That Harry is small and agile is a matter of physical inheritance, as is the fact that Hagrid is enormous and very strong, as is the fact that the children of muggles are usually muggle, while the children of wizards are usually magical -- Squibs exist, but they are rare, even more rare than Muggle-born witches and wizards, according to Ron. I think that the text emphasizes quite strongly the notion that it is what one chooses to *do* with ones particular talents that matters the most. I don't think that the text anywhere implies that heritable conditions do not exist, or that heredity does not play a significant role when it comes to the particular talents and weaknesses that one has to work with. Would it damage the books on the thematic level, though, if it were to emerge that some people are more vulnerable to the Imperius Curse than others for reasons other than inherent weakness of will? I guess that all depends. Do we feel that it damages the books on the thematic level that Harry seems to have been blessed with an inborn *talent* for resisting the Imperius Curse? Actually, to be quite honest, sometimes I do rather feel that way about Harry and his Imperius resistance. It bothers me a bit that he's got that. I think that I would have liked it a lot better, in some ways, if JKR hadn't given him that particular talent. But I can live with it. And if I can live with Harry's freakish native talent for shrugging off the Imperius, then I guess that I could also live with the idea that some people might have to work even harder than everyone else if they want to break free of the curse. It's not fair, no, but then, if I had to pick the one thing that I think that JKR does the very *best* in these books, I would probably cite the clear-eyed yet compassionate approach she takes to that one fundamentally unpalatable truth: Life Just *Isn't* Fair. ------------ Richelle, however, points out that we do have canonical evidence that fathers and sons do not always exhibit the same facility with Imperius resistance. Richelle: > Okay, I have one problem with this. There's both Barty Crouch Sr > and Jr with the Imperius Curse. It took Jr years to break it, > whereas Sr broke it in a matter of months. True. Really, strength of will doesn't seem to have ever been one of young Barty's personal strengths, does it? He went completely to pieces at his sentencing. Harry observes him in the Penseive reacting far more dramatically to the dementors than his co- defendents seem to. He was on his death bed after only a year in Azkaban. And by the end of GoF, at any rate, he's also mad as a hatter, which in the fictive world, if not the real one, is often indicative of a failure of will -- as, for that matter, is allowing oneself to be corrupted by Dark Wizards in the first place. Crouch Sr, on the other hand, is rather consistently depicted as quite strong-willed, if also corrupt in his own way. Then, young Barty didn't *look* a whole lot like his father either, did he? Thematic consistency, Jo! Thematic consistency! For God's sake, is it really all that much to ask? Oh, well. I guess that we really can't complain too much about the fault line, can we? After all, if it weren't for that little quirk of geology, then this Bay wouldn't even exist. ------------- Could Lucius have targetted Ginny in part because he knew that she would be unusually vulnerable to the Diary's effects? Lilac: > OOOHHH, one more thought...is this why Lucius picked Ginny in > particular? Because he knew that she would be susceptible because > he put Arthur under Imperio 15-or-so years ago? Things that make > you go hmmmmm... Hmmmmm, indeed! I've always found myself curious about Lucius' plans for that Diary, actually. The timing of his slipping it to Ginny always seems to suggest to me that it was actually a spur of the moment decision, that Lucius was inspired by seeing the Weasleys there in the shop (not to mention by his brawl with Arthur and his irritation with the recent raids on his manor), and that he acted on that sudden impulse. But if that's true, then one can't help but wonder what the *original* plan was supposed to be. Did he originally intend to use Draco to get the Diary to Hogwarts? That seems unlikely, given that he went out of his way to warn Draco to stay well out of the entire affair. Also, he did bring the Diary with him to Diagon Alley, which seems to suggest that it had been his plan from the very start to slip it into *some* student's kit. I think that he meant to give it to Harry. From the very start, it is *Harry* Dobby identifies as particularly endangered by the Diary plot, and it is Harry Dobby tries to keep away from Hogwarts by any means possible. Lucius also might well have suspected that Harry might have inherited Voldemort's Parseltongue talent, just as that shrewd calculating look that Snape throws Harry in the Duelling Scene suggests that Snape might similarly have some inkling about how that entire dynamic works. After all, we are given to understand that just like Snape, Lucius Malfoy does know an awful lot about the Dark Arts. My feeling is that Harry was the intended recipient for the Diary, and that Lucius changed his plan at the last minute out of pure malice and spite. Of course, that doesn't mean that he couldn't have known all about Arthur's tangle with Imperius, or even suspected that Arthur's children might be vulnerable. But I don't think that Ginny was his original choice to serve as the conveyor of Riddle's Diary to Hogwarts. --------------- Could a Weasley vulnerability to Imperius have been what Crouch/Moody was hinting at when he refused to give Ron credit for potential Auror talent? Lilac asked: > Could this also be the reason why Moody *does not* tell Ron he > would make a good Auror? Because it's difficult for Ron to even > overcome the after effects of the Imperius? Huh. I suppose that Crouch/Moody's comments *do* usually have more than one meaning, so it's possible that that was indeed the "Moody meaning," if you see what I mean. As for the *Crouch* meaning, though, I've always been extremely partial to Charis Julia's analysis of Crouch's evaluation of the Trio's Auror talents -- so partial, in fact, that I've been seething with envy over it for *months* now. I wish that I had written it myself. I'd paraphrase it for you, but I couldn't possibly do it justice, so let me just give you the link to Charis' post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39064 That's my favored interpretation. I also think that Crouch was trying to stir up trouble by refusing to give Ron the stroking he so obviously wanted there. He hoped to make Ron feel inadequate, and to set off his envy. He was being cruel. But it is true that Crouch's statements almost always carry two separate meanings. They can usually be read at face value as well as at the second level. So perhaps Real!Moody genuinely *would* have passed on advising Ron to consider a career as an Auror. Because of the Imperius? Could be. ---------- Lilac: > I think Veronica and Elkins have a pretty water-tight vessel > floating now. However, I do like the 7th Son theory, so I hope your > trimaran does have a cabin so I can visit there. That is, if I ever > brave the waters of theory bay. Hey, Veronica's even letting the Operative!Arthur people have berths, even though they spend half of their time picking on the Auror!Arthur brigade and the other half trying to scuttle the trimaran altogether. She's a regular old Dumbledore, is Captain Veronica. So I'd say that there's sure to be plenty of room on that ship for Seventh Son adherents. I just don't know about this "Arthur Weasley *used* the Imperius Curse" spec that Eloise has been handsawing out there, though. I think that one just might qualify as a mutiny. -- Elkins, who only really cares for Seventh Son when they serve it up on the Trimaran as a side dish to a big bloody helping of Imperio'd Arthur, Unwilling Filicide From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 00:23:54 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 00:23:54 -0000 Subject: Analyzing Fred and George SS/PS In-Reply-To: <020301c273ea$ef84e240$66a0cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45445 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: Richelle: > Yes, here we go again. :) I know this has been brought up, and > ever since it has been I've been noticing the differences between > the twins more and more. > > Richelle > As a side note, I think JKR has characterized the twins very well. If you've ever known a set of twins, you know she is dead on in relating their personalities. Usually one is more out going than the other, which leaves the second one to be more introspective. It's almost like one twin is a 'right brain' person and the other is a 'left brain' person. This is also reflected in the fact that with twin, frequently one is right handed and the other is left handed. This would also imply dominant brain hemisphere. Fred is obviously more out going and implusive. He tends to be self-centered which doesn't necessarily mean he is uncaring. Where as George tends to be thoughtful, analytical, and shows concern for others. I have twin sisters and this is not too far off. One is out going and carefree and the other tends to be introspective and somewhat nervious. So my point is, I think she (JKR) is capturing the differences between twin very nicely. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 01:26:46 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 01:26:46 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Student Population In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021016221551.0096f400@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45446 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: > At 15:34 16/10/02 +0000, Steve wrote: > > > bboy_mn originally said: > > >Clearly, there are other dorm *rooms* in this dormitory. > GulPlum replied in part: > > Point of British English usage (as it happens, the American > definition appears to be broader) : a "dormitory" (or "dorm", > which is the word I'll use to save typing) without qualification > is a single room with (usually) several beds which serves as a > communal sleeping area. > > ...eidted... bboy_mn replies: According to the American Heritage Dictionary*, you are wrong. HOWEVER, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, you are right. Oxford makes NO mention of- *Dormitory - 2. A building for housing a number of persons, as at a school or resort. Not even in reference to it as a secondary or minor definition. Of course, the main Oxford Dictionary on-line is by subscription only, so I has to use askoxford.com which may not be as comprehensive. -end this part- GulPlum continues: > CoS (p. 67, UK ed): "They hurried up it, right to the top, and at > last reached the door of their old dormitory, which now had a sign > on it saying SECOND YEARS." > > It doesn't say "second years room 1" or "Finnigan, Longbottom, > Potter, Weasley, Thomas". It simply says "second years". > bboy_mn replies: You would emphasize the words "Second Years". I would emphasize the words "OLD DORMITORY". Harry went back to the same room he had the previous year; his OLD DORMITORY, which is the same room he goes back to every year. He doesn't have to search for a sign to know which one it is. So *IF* there are others in his year, they do the same thing. They go back to the same room that they've had since the beginning, and find the sign changed to indicate their current year. "SECOND YEARS" proves nothing other than Harry is one year farther along in school. -end this part- Bboy_mn org: > >We know there are more boys in Colin Creevey's year but have any > >of them been names? Occassionally, you will hear about Colin and > >his friends, but those friends are never identified. Unless I've > >forgotten a lot of details, the story seems to imply that Colin is > > the only boy in his year. But that doesn't seem logical. GulPlum: > > All it implies is that Colin is the only boy in his year who shows an > interest in Harry, and therefore is the only one Harry notices. (It's > normal not to pay attention to kids in classes junior to one's own.) > Bboy_mn replies: Exactly my point, we only see the obvious; the things that are prominent in Harry's life. Other students in other dorm rooms, don't get mentioned because they have insignificant interaction with Harry. It is pretty much confirmed that there are two additional girls in Harry's class year. They have never been named and have only been referenced in indirect ways (fighting the bogart). So there are student that Harry stands side by side with every single day who have only gotten the few very smallest drops on ink. Plus, many others that we know are there but who have gotten ZERO ink time. All I'm saying is that among the 'zero ink time' students, there could be some in Harry's year that have no significants to Harry's daily life. -end this part- ** bboy_mn & GulPlum ....blah blah blah 20 this and 20 that. ** bboy_mn replies: Actually there was something that made me suspect this number, but I haven't been able to find it again. I'll keep looking. It's not 'proof', but it did make the number 20 seem suspect. -end this part- GulPlum: > > I see the "second years" label as quite conclusive, ... > bboy_mn: And obviously, I don't. bboy_mn From millergal8 at aol.com Thu Oct 17 01:39:46 2002 From: millergal8 at aol.com (millergal8 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:39:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizarding world government Message-ID: <1bd.1118bc4c.2adf6ee2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45447 In a message dated 10/16/02 2:43:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com writes: << therefore there will probably be no wizarding equivalent of the World Wars. >> Sorry for such a short post, but most of what I wanted to say has already been posted so I didn't see the sense in repeating anything. While this isn't undeniable proof about WWII spilling over into the wizarding world, but one of the things written on Dumblebore's card is that he defeated the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945. WWII ended in May 1945. Like I said, not irrevocably proof, but just something to think about. Christy From sgarfio at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 00:28:46 2002 From: sgarfio at yahoo.com (Sherry Garfio) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: About Florence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021017002846.15857.qmail@web21408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45448 Melody wrote: > > She, of course, could be older. Frank Longbottum is well respected > in > > the auror world and well liked. As established in the community as > > they were, I wonder if they are not at least ten years older than > > Snape. While it is possible that they established such a reputation > > quickly, I doubt it is plausible. > > > > So either Mr. and Mrs. Longbottum are little social climbers or they > > had Neville kind of late in life. I always thought that the wizarding community is much smaller and more tightly knit than our own world. If you think about it, since there is only one wizarding middle/high school in all of Britain, that means that every witch and wizard in Britain knows every other witch and wizard in Britain as well as you and I knew people we went to school with. Better, in fact - there would be no moving around and changing schools, so they would go to the same school for all 7 years (barring expulsion), *and* it's a boarding school, so everybody sees each other at every meal, on weekends, etc. They would know people 7 years older and 7 years younger, plus names of kids whose tenure overlapped their siblings, and even their parents and children. They would all hear the same school legends of former students. It's not like the silly remark people often make (at least here in the US): "Oh, you're from England? Do you know Bob?" People in the British wizarding community *would* be likely to know each other. It appears from Malfoy's statements that it is possible for a wizarding family to send a child to a foreign school. This would have the effect of having that child enter the British wizarding community as an adult. He would be less well-known among the Hogwarts graduates who form the majority of that society, although that could be an advantage, since his peers would never have seen the stupid things he did in school. Take Fudge, for example. He doesn't seem like a distant politician; he seems more like a guy you knew in school - because most people in the WW *did* go to school with him. I believe that Lily and James are well known so early in adulthood simply because everybody goes to the same school. We know that James played Quidditch, which only 28 students in any given year have the opportunity to do, and the sport is wildly popular, so this would automatically have put him in the spotlight. As his girlfriend, Lily would also be well-known even if she never did anything else to get noticed (and I suspect she did). Frank Longbottom may have had a spotlight position at Hogwarts as well. (Do we know of anything yet? Prefect? Class clown? Know-it-all? I regretfully don't have my books with me, and I don't recall any tidbits about his school days.) If so, he would have had a social advantage as soon as he and his classmates - who all knew him - graduated and started contributing to society. My two knuts Sherry ===== "The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers." -Dave Barry, "Things That It Took Me 50 Years to Learn" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From kmapes at uclink.berkeley.edu Thu Oct 17 02:00:02 2002 From: kmapes at uclink.berkeley.edu (ladygvorkosigan) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:00:02 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Student Population In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45449 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: > It is pretty much confirmed that there are two additional girls in > Harry's class year. They have never been named and have only been > referenced in indirect ways (fighting the bogart). So there are > student that Harry stands side by side with every single day who have > only gotten the few very smallest drops on ink. Plus, many others that > we know are there but who have gotten ZERO ink time. All I'm saying is > that among the 'zero ink time' students, there could be some in > Harry's year that have no significants to Harry's daily life. > -end this part- > > bboy_mn Actually, I think it's far from confirmed that there are two other Gryffindor girls in Harry's year. In fact, I think the Boggart scene strongly implies that there aren't any other student's present. Let's look at what happens: "'Seamus!' roared Professor Lupin. Seamus darted part Parvati. Crack! Where the mummy had been there was. . .a banshee. . . 'Riddikulus!' shouted Seamus. The banshee made a rasping noise and clutched her throat; her voice was gone. Crack! The banshee turned into a rat, which chased its tail in a circle, then- crack!- became a rattlesnake, wich slithered and writhed before - crack!- becoming a single, bloody eyeball. 'It's confused!' shouted Lupin. 'We're getting there! Dean!'" The argument that I've generally made is that the additional transformations of the Boggart imply that there were unnamed people in the room, and this is generally taken to be two extra Gryffindor girls. Leaving aside the fact that the Boggart actually transforms three times with no apparent person spurring it (to a rat, a rattlesnake, and an eyeball--presumably one could be Hermione's worst fear, although in that case it would change dramatically between now and the final exam), the structure of the scene implies nobody else was present. Based on the fact that the "crack!" occurs not when the student waves its wand but at the point when the Boggart actually changes (e.g. AFTER Seamus runs up to Parvati, not when she waves her wand), it's clear that the sound effect illustrates that the Boggart changes, not that the Riddikulus spell is being cast. Lupin says that the Boggart is getting confused and doesn't know what to change into. If there were two (or three) extra students there whose fears the Boggart was reflecting, it would not be getting confused, it would simply be changing to meet the worst fears of the extra students in the room. Thus, it seems likely that the Boggart, instead of reacting to individuals at this point, is simply picking up on generic scary images. Additionally, the confusion comment clearly indicates that even if there were other people in the room, Lupin did not specifically direct them to face the Boggart and shout the Riddikulus curse. If this was the case, A. the Boggart definitely would have been reacting, not confused, B. we would have seen the rat, eyeball, etc. change into something funny (the way this is written it seems like too much to assume that that part of the scene is left out). Thus, were other students in the room it's safe to say they didn't specifically tackle the Boggart. This means that at the end, when Lupin awards points to all those who tackled the Boggart he did so only to those he named (Seamus, Ron, Dean, Lavendar, and Parvati). Now, when Harry and Hermione were awarded points for correctly answering questions at the beginning, Harry was resentful becaue he thought Lupin was awarding him those points so he wouldn't feel left out. If there were other students in the class who weren't awarded any points at all, there would be no reason for Harry to think Lupin would do this. It seems clear that Hermione and Harry were the only ones who didn't face the Boggart. Judging from this scene, at leat, it appears that not only are there not likely two additional Gryffindor girls, there's probably not any extra Gryffindor boys either. And I think the complete lack of any other indication in the text supports this. Why wouldn't Harry and Ron have at least considered them as possible dates for the Yule Ball, for example? I think it's completely reasonable that there would be uneven numbers of boys and girls in Gryffindor and uneven numbers of, say, Slytherin and Gryffindors (perhaps 8 to 12 accounting for the 20 broomsticks?). After all, it would be unlikely for the students in a given year to divide into the four houses on exactly equal lines. From tmarends at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 02:14:17 2002 From: tmarends at yahoo.com (Tim) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:14:17 -0000 Subject: Snape's knowledge Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45450 Something struck me as I was re-reading PoA and GoF. Wouldn't Snape, as a former DE and spy, have knowledge that Pettigrew was a DE? Even if he believed that Sirius was guilty of killing Pettigrew, he must have known that the stories surrounding the incident couldn't be completely true. Or was his hatred of Black so great that he didn't care what the truth was? Tim A. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 02:22:18 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:22:18 -0000 Subject: Where's the bathroom? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45451 I'm winging it from memory here, although I am in the process of reading CoS again. I hope I don't mess this up. Hermione said Moaning Myrtle's bathroom is on the first floor. I assume that's the British first floor which is the American second floor. It's the floor above the ground floor. Next when Harry comes up from the dungeon (CS: death day party) and hears the Basilisk, he runs up from the dungeon then up the marble staircase. This puts him on the British first floor/American second floor. This should be the level that Moaning Myrtle's bathroom is on. Then they run up another staircase following the voice and down to the end of a hallway. Here they see the writing on the wall and the dead cat. All this is outside of Moaning Myrtle's bathroom. So is that bathroom on the ground floor, second floor, or third floor? Next, I brought this up before in another thread, but no one seemed interested. I'll bring it up again and let the chips fall where they may. When the feast ended, why did all the students go down that particular hall? A hallway that appears to be on the third floor. (British:second floor; American:Third floor. Up two flights of stairs from ground level.) The Slytherins, for example, go DOWN to the dungeons from the main entryway. I think, Ravenclaw, and Hufflepuff also go down from the main entryway to get to their dorms. So why did they all go up two flights of stairs and down those hallways? They seemed to come from two directions; coming from two directions seems to imply that Harry/Ron/Hermione were at the end of the building or wing, and the students came down two parallel hallways. So where were they all going? Why would the whole student body go down a hallway that doesn't really go anywhere? Really, I don't have a clue. bboy_mn From Malady579 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 17 03:04:16 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 03:04:16 -0000 Subject: Circle Arguments, Ego-Maniacs, and Manipulators In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45452 Well, I promised I would continue with my line of reason so.... If I knew where to begin tonight, I would. Both camps haves stationed their tents and neither party is sending out a lone rider to try and reach a quiet truce. True, neither side is attacking the other with a bloody battle field reflecting in the armor, but the strong feet of followers are pulsing the ground and causing many to be rather silent in the hopes all will just pass away. So I, in my infinite desire to talk until all is sorted, cannot let this stalemate away. So because I am not the general of the army or even the strongest soldier, I hope my little voice will not shame either side. Before my last thoughts were... <> I said that because that is where PC and MD seem to be divided. PC believes MD has gone too far. My question is to PC is...this is a magical world, how can we ever go too far? Ok I know that is not fair. PC has a valid point, or two, ;) to make. We can all go too far sometimes. Let our imagination run away with us. Like Hagrid Poppins. We all found that idea adorable and quite funny, but tend to throw out as a possibility since we do not have *canon* evidence that his umbrella, or any umbrella for that matter, has that power. It is just an idea floating around. I still do not see how MD is based on a floating idea. GulPlum states that it is a circular argument. I disagree. An idea is born from impressed emotions, and is kept alive by support. If one does not accept the "reputation" of the support from the beginning, then the idea will never be proven to any satisfaction to a second party. There is nothing the idea-maker can do to convince the second party either. Both sides must shake hands and leave the ring. This is where the use of _The_Bible_ as an example fails and yet somehow shines in GulPlum's post. It shows us that if we do not accept the canon as canon, then there is not point in arguing. Unfortunately for both sides, we all take the HP series as, and I do not mean this blasphemously at all, "The Bible" for our ideas. We all have accepted this universe and have familiarized ourselves with the characters. Therefore, to say that MD is a circular argument is mute in my mind. You may not interpret the ideas a certain way, but it is not a circular argument since we all accept the "reputation" of the series. If you do not accept the premises of MD, then that is fine. PC was created for that purpose. To create unity of defense against MD. It reminds me of the nobles of Scotland shaking their legitimate documents arguing that they have the right to the throne. Both sides can't win and neither is conceding. And having said all that and boring way too many listees... I do want to pose a few questions. bugaloo37 wrote: >>IMO, Voldemort is a ego-maniac-who in certain areas is unable to admit the possibility that something he has strove so hard to conceive may backfire on him. Some might say he learned his lesson when the AK aimed at baby Harry backfired on him-but perhaps, he hasn't. If we make a comparison between Voldemort and certain real- life ego-maniacs, we will see a pattern. IMO, history shows us the ego-maniacs seldom learn from their mistakes and more times than not it is this "blindness" that finally defeats them.<< Me: Do you really find him to be an ego-maniac? While I do see him running away in his own brilliance, I do not see how this has consumed him. He seems quite calm in the Riddle house and later in the graveyard. Cracking a few jokes, taking his time. He has all his emotions in check until all breaks apart when the wands react. I do see how Voldemort is suffering from over-confidence in himself. That is what got him stripped of his body. He relied too much on his own knowledge and power, but he seems to be more careful in his steps now. Pre-Harry Voldemort and Riddle Voldemort did forget some of the finer points of *good* magic (love and phoenix tears). Graveyard Voldemort just did not think of *all* possibilities. He got caught on a wand technicality. So confident, yes. Bit careless with his emotions, no. Now on to Dumbledore... Alla wrote: >>>Yes, it would be foolish for Dumbledore not to have a game plan, but (in my opinion) the preparations which Dumbledore probably made did not include the Voldemort return. Metathinking or not I am not ready to accept very gray, almost dark Dumbledore of MAGIC DISHWASHER, especially if I think that such possibility almost flat out denied by the canon. "You flatter me," said Dumbledore calmly. "Voldemort had powers I will never have. Only because you're too-well - noble to use them". (PS/SS) Of course Dumbledore has to prepare to make some sacrifices being a leader in the horrible fight and all, but I think that willingly (and in my opinion unnecessary) forcing Voldemore to return will lead to too many sacrifices, which Dumbledore is not going to make.<<< Me: It is hard being a leader when you have to make hard choices. It does not negate the fact though that they must be made. Manipulator Dumbledore does paint the picture of a man who is controlling way too much and relying way too much on his intuition alone. By that definition, he is Voldemort. Now, I don't think that is what MD is stating. One quote from Barty Jr. that sticks out in my mind. (GoF, Ch. 35) "Decent people are so easy to manipulate, Potter." Granted, that quote is from the evil perspective, but I think it applies well to the good. Decent people are easy because they do raise their glass to the higher level of ideals. I do not see the harm of assuming someone's actions and working accordingly to bring about good for the better of the community. Dumbledore is doing just that. Without being omniscient, Dumbledore can still accurately predict what others will do. This is what MD is stating. Not that he is manipulating, but rather observing the actions and morals of those around him and making decisions and judgments from what he observed. It is a fine line, but one, I believe, that Dumbledore, in all his brilliance, is walking. Melody From Malady579 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 17 03:18:36 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 03:18:36 -0000 Subject: Snape's knowledge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45453 Tim wondered: >>>Something struck me as I was re-reading PoA and GoF. Wouldn't Snape, as a former DE and spy, have knowledge that Pettigrew was a DE?<<< Well, not necessarily. Let us go to the courtroom scene with Karkaroff shall we... (GoF, Ch. 30) "You must understand," said Karkaroff hurriedly, "that He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named operated always in the greatest of secrecy...He preferred that we -- **small cut of Karkar's babble** -- we never knew the names of every one of our fellows -- He alone knew exactly who we all were --" So, from that we can fairly assume that there is a possibility that Snape did not know Peter was a DE. If Voldie did operate under great secrecy, and the DE's never threw get-to-know-you parties, then many of the DE's would never know of the others until Voldie paired them together. From the graveyard though, it seems that many of the DE's had figured out who each other were. They seem not surprised or shocked in who was there. So, either Karkaroff lied, possible, or Voldie had a clear enough mind to keep secrets. Melody From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Oct 17 05:10:53 2002 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 15:10:53 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where's the bathroom? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3DAED2FD.7829.3BA178E@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 45454 On 17 Oct 2002 at 2:22, Steve wrote: > I'm winging it from memory here, although I am in the process of > reading CoS again. I hope I don't mess this up. I'm going off my map of Hogwarts and notes here - I should point out my map (which is based on canon) at best represents only a possible configuration of Hogwarts based on all the information I can find in the books. I only have one of my notebooks here at the moment, so I can't necessairly cite all my references. > Hermione said Moaning Myrtle's bathroom is on the first floor. I > assume that's the British first floor which is the American second > floor. It's the floor above the ground floor. > > Next when Harry comes up from the dungeon (CS: death day party) and > hears the Basilisk, he runs up from the dungeon then up the marble > staircase. This puts him on the British first floor/American second > floor. This should be the level that Moaning Myrtle's bathroom is on. > Then they run up another staircase following the voice and down to the > end of a hallway. Here they see the writing on the wall and the dead > cat. All this is outside of Moaning Myrtle's bathroom. > > So is that bathroom on the ground floor, second floor, or third floor? I had to place Moaning Myrtle's bathroom on the second floor (when counting 'Ground, First, Second, etc.'), despite what Hermione said at the Death Day Party (and much as I hate to consider Hermione wrong). We have apparently contradictory information here (page numbers refer to Australian printings, which, AFAIK, use the same text and page numbers as the British). COS, page 101, has Hermione stating Moaning Myrtles toilet is on the first floor. However, Goblet of Fire, page 345, says that Myrtle's toilet is on the second floor. You've already mentioned the run from the dungeon (COS, page 104-106), which specifically mentions stairs to the entrance hall, stairs to the first floor (and says that when on the first floor, Harry can hear the voices on the floor above) and then stairs to the second floor and Harry 'hurtling' around that floor before finding the walls. Another reference - Cedric directs Harry to the Prefects bathroom on the fifth floor (GoF, p 375) and when he is in that room (GoF, p400) it is mentioned that Myrtle haunts a toilet, three floors below. We have a lot more evidence for the second floor than the first - which is based on Hermione, discussing a room she tries to avoid anyway. It could have moved, I guess, but the second floor is where I place it. > Next, I brought this up before in another thread, but no one seemed > interested. I'll bring it up again and let the chips fall where they may. > > When the feast ended, why did all the students go down that particular > hall? A hallway that appears to be on the third floor. (British:second > floor; American:Third floor. Up two flights of stairs from ground level.) > > The Slytherins, for example, go DOWN to the dungeons from the main > entryway. I think, Ravenclaw, and Hufflepuff also go down from the > main entryway to get to their dorms. So why did they all go up two > flights of stairs and down those hallways? They seemed to come from > two directions; coming from two directions seems to imply that > Harry/Ron/Hermione were at the end of the building or wing, and the > students came down two parallel hallways. So where were they all > going? Why would the whole student body go down a hallway that doesn't > really go anywhere? I certainly can't explain (from my, possibly highly inaccurate, map) why anybody would be in that corridor - but Ravenclaw doesn't go down from the main entryway to get to their dorms - it seems Hufflepuff might - but I'm unsure. It seems to be Dumbledore would have at least some idea of where the dormitories are - and in GOF, p247, when talking to Cedric and Harry in the small room off the Great Hall, where the Triwizard Champions went after selection, he tells Harry and Cedric to go 'up' to their dormitories. On page 248, Cedric heads downstairs from the Entrance Hall, and he's supposed to be going to his dormitory - but really, for all we know he could be off somewhere else - he's a prefect and they seem to move around a lot more than others (or maybe he wanted to get some food from the kitchens - like Fred and George have). GOF, p477, also mentions Cedric coming up from the Hufflepuff common room into the Entrance Chamber - but that's from Harry's perspective and he could be making an assumption based on p248, perhaps - after all, exactly where the Common Rooms are seems to be secret... perhaps Cedric (being a prefect, and possibly intent on the rules) is deliberately misleading Harry as to its location... Balance of probabilities, I think the entrance to Hufflepuff Common Room is probably downstairs from the Entrance Hall - but I'm not sure the evidence for that is incredibly firm. Anyone got evidence I am missing here. Ravenclaw however - as far as I know, we have no indication of where the RC commonroom is (on my map, I stuck it on the fourth floor because I had a lot of empty space there (-8). Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From tmarends at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 06:35:15 2002 From: tmarends at yahoo.com (Tim) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 06:35:15 -0000 Subject: Snape's knowledge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45455 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > Tim wondered: > >>>Something struck me as I was re-reading PoA and GoF. Wouldn't > Snape, as a former DE and spy, have knowledge that Pettigrew was a DE?<<< > > > Well, not necessarily. Let us go to the courtroom scene with > Karkaroff shall we... > > (GoF, Ch. 30) > "You must understand," said Karkaroff hurriedly, "that > He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named operated always in the greatest of > secrecy...He preferred that we -- **small cut of Karkar's babble** - - > we never knew the names of every one of our fellows -- He alone knew > exactly who we all were --" > > So, from that we can fairly assume that there is a possibility that > Snape did not know Peter was a DE. If Voldie did operate under great > secrecy, and the DE's never threw get-to-know-you parties, then many > of the DE's would never know of the others until Voldie paired them > together. From the graveyard though, it seems that many of the DE's > had figured out who each other were. They seem not surprised or > shocked in who was there. > > So, either Karkaroff lied, possible, or Voldie had a clear enough mind > to keep secrets. > > Melody Tim replies: But then you turn to chapter 33 and Voldy is spouting out names for everyone there to hear. I think the Karkaroff was giving names of DEs he knew couldn't hurt him for one reason or another in addition to giving them just enough names to keep himself out of Azkaban, which obviously worked. Tim From anakinbester at hotmail.com Thu Oct 17 02:54:41 2002 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:54:41 -0000 Subject: Snape's knowledge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45456 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tim" wrote: > Wouldn't Snape, > as a former DE and spy, have knowledge that Pettigrew was a DE? I've seen that brought up a few other places. I have two takes on that. One is, no Snape simply was never that high up a death eater to know that Peter was a spy. consider how valuable Peter was. Even if Snape were fairly high ranked (which I assume he was if you believe he's the informant that informed them of the danger to the Potters)he still may not have known the identity of the spy. he may have only known that here was one. Now, clearly some DE"s did know who peter was, because of what Sirius says he over heard in Azkaban. My feeling is that the insane DE's might have been the Lestranges, who could have been highly placed enough to know about Peter. Then again, maybe no one mentioned Peter by name. I mean if they were calling out for vengeance against Peter Pettigrew, it really makes you angry that Sirius got to spend so much time in jail, because here were people giving evidence that Sirius was innocent -_- I doubt there were many people looking after those prisoners. Not with Dementors around all the time. Anyway, theory number two Snape did know. However, he would have compromised himself if he'd revealed Peter as the spy. In fact, Voldemrot could have told Snape about Peter as some form of test. If Peter is found out, the Voldemort has caught his spy. Then you wonder why wouldn't Snape testify for Sirius. Well one, Sirius could have been a spy for all Snape knew. Just because Peter is one, does not mean Sirius cannot also be a spy. Nor does Snape know that Sirius didn't kill those 12 muggles. Sirius could have killed them in an effort to kill Peter for all Snape knows. We already know Snape believes Sirius to be a murderer, and not without reason. If Snape thought Sirius could kill the muggles just to get at Peter, and Sirius had already tried to kill him for some school grudge, then Snape could reason that Sirius deserves Azkaban as much as Peter did. I suspect what ever punishment Sirius got for the werewolf prank did not satisfy Snape, and seeing Sirius in Azkaban could be some form of revenge. That seems fairly petty right? But I think even the stoutest Snape lover has to admit the man has a petty streak. Honestly, how petty is it to carry on a grudge against the son of the person you hated? And to threaten to have Remus given a Demontor's kiss as well! He had no proof that Remus was collaborating, yet he was more than willing at the moment to see both Sirius and Remus dead. *Shrugs* I don't see it as that for out of character that Snape could have convinced himself that Sirius deserved to be in Azkaban even if he had not been the spy. -Ani From lupinesque at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 12:11:13 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 12:11:13 -0000 Subject: Where's the bathroom? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45457 Steve/bboy wrote: > The Slytherins, for example, go DOWN to the dungeons from the main > entryway. I think, Ravenclaw, and Hufflepuff also go down from the > main entryway to get to their dorms. So why did they all go up two > flights of stairs and down those hallways? They seemed to come from > two directions; coming from two directions seems to imply that > Harry/Ron/Hermione were at the end of the building or wing, and the > students came down two parallel hallways. So where were they all > going? Why would the whole student body go down a hallway that doesn't > really go anywhere? > > Really, I don't have a clue. Fortunately for JKR, the magical nature of Hogwarts' plan covers up a multitude of inconsistencies. Maybe the stairs have all moved in such a way that that night, everyone has to go up before they can get into the dungeons. And a bathroom that's sometimes on one floor, sometimes on another is a cinch to explain away. Amy Z ----------------------------------------------------- [Quidditch] is, of course, an entirely fictional sport and nobody really plays it. May I also take this opportunity to wish Puddlemere United the best of luck next season. --Foreword, Quidditch Through the Ages ----------------------------------------------------- From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 17 13:40:40 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:40:40 -0000 Subject: Second Daugther Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45458 The Second Daughter Theory: There's been a little bit of speculation about the 7th son theory throughout some of the posts on the Imperius!Arthur thread. I'd just like to put forward my proposition that a missing Weasely child could be female - in fact for the reasons I'm about to state I believe that if there is a missing child that that child is/was in fact a female. Now due to the huge gap between Charlie and Percy (the Lexicon has Charlie born in '67 and Percy in '76 making it 9 years between them - although this figure can change depending on how you calculate it) So 9 years between children when there (judging on school years) 2 years between Percy and the Twins an 2 years between the Twins and Ron and 1 year between Ron and Ginny. I presume (based on the behaviour to each other (although this is not conclusive) in GOF) that Bill and Charlie are quite close to each other in age too. Now it is this seemingly large gap that has lead to suggestions for a missing child. Now why do I feel that the missing child was a girl? Firstly: one of the reasons some people have a lot of children (especially when all of the older children are of one gender i.e. all girls or all boys) is because they want a child of the gender that they don't have, i.e. they have Son's but want a daughter so therefore keep having children until they get the girl. So... (this is completely theoretical) Arthur and Molly have Bill, Charlie and then the *missing girl*, they then decide they have all the children they want/need but then a year or two later they lose the daughter (for whatever reason some have suggested the Imperius! Arthur killed her although I don't subscribe to that idea) now after a while they decide that they would like another child -preferably a girl, but Percy's a boy and so they try again, the Twins are boys to and so is Ron and then Ginny comes along and so they have a daughter and don't need/want anymore children. Secondly: A while ago in some posts about Ginny it was highlighted how over protective of Ginny Molly was - I believe they quoted the fact that Molly didn't allow Ginny into the last pyramid (POA) as one of the examples of this. Now of course Ginny is the youngest and the only girl, but is this the only reason for her over protectiveness... Thirdly: This is a personal opinion but we already have 6 Weasley boys - if the *missing child* did turn out to be a boy it wouldn't be that special - we've already got enough male Weasleys to ponder about without the addition of another one! I female Weasley would stand out more purely because of the relative rarity. So there you have it my Second Daughter Theory Michelle From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Oct 17 14:06:18 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 14:06:18 -0000 Subject: Circle Arguments, Ego-Maniacs, and Manipulators In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45459 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > > Do you really find him to be an ego-maniac? While I do see him > running away in his own brilliance, I do not see how this has consumed him. > I do see how Voldemort is suffering from over-confidence in himself. > That is what got him stripped of his body. He relied too much on his own knowledge and power, but he seems to be more careful in his steps now. >So confident, yes. Bit careless with his emotions, no. > > Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary gives the following definitions: 1) Egomaniac-one characterized by egomania; 2) Egomania- the quality or state of being extremely egocentric; 3)Egocentric- self-centered, selfish, limited in outlook or concern to one's own activities and needs. Nowhere in these definitions is lack of emotional control mentioned as a prerequesite for egomania. IMO, as I look back on definition number 3, I feel that Voldemort fits it to the letter. He is certainly self-centered and selfish. His outlook is most decidely limited to what concern's himself-his needs. You also stated that since the time he was stripped of his body, he had grown more careful. IMO, I do not agree. If he had been more careful, he would have known about the wand problem-Dumbledore did. But, IMO, given the fact Voldemort has a hard time believing that anything that he comes up with will fail, he is doomed to fail. Over-confidence is the main characteristic of egomania. Some of historys most famous egomaniacs have been individuals with detailed agendas on how their diabolical schemes would unfold. And whereas these egomaniacs would experience "temper tantrums" and throw fits as it were, most of the time they were quite lucid and were able to think out and bring about some of the most devastating periods in world history. In a JKR interview, she stated point-blank that Voldemort could be compared with Hitler. IMO, no more evil individual ever walked the earth than Hitler- and also, IMO, no more clearcut example of an egomaniac has ever existed. bugaloo37 From mailowen at aol.com Thu Oct 17 13:54:51 2002 From: mailowen at aol.com (dowen331) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:54:51 -0000 Subject: What happened while Harry was gone? (was: Task 3 point of view) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45460 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > Pip!Squeak replied: > >>>I think Dumbledore was fooled (and he* was* fooled, he did not plan > the Graveyard Scene) by the `no apparition in and out of Hogwarts' > rule. The maze was patrolled by Moody,(who he hadn't spotted as Crouch > Jr,) Professor McGonagall, Professor Flitwick and Hagrid. The hazards > within were known (he thought). With loyal wizards patrolling the > entrances and exits, no one could get in the maze to harm Harry. A > rejigged Portkey never occurred to him...<<< > > Me (Melody): > To add to what Pip said...the maze was on the Quidditch field. All > the judges (which includes Dumbledore), students, parents, and other > teachers (i.e. Snape) were in the stands, which are raised from the > ground originally for better view of Quidditch, but come in handy to > have a bird's-eye-view of a very tall maze. All eyes were on the > competitors and were able to see all that was going on in the maze. > Hey, the audience at least had better seats in Task #3 than they did > in Task #2. > > Judge Dumbledore was *supposed* to watch Harry, and Non-patroling > Snape was completely free to *only* watch Harry. > > Melody This thread on the spectators of the third task (including popcorn!) is indirectly related to a question that has long lingered in the back of my brain: When Harry and Cedric were portkeyed away, what did the crowd know of what was happening? Was Dumbledore aware that something had gone wrong? Was everyone else in the crowd aware, or did they just think the tasks were taking a VERY long time? Were the professors all running around trying to solve the mystery of the missing champions, until Harry showed up face down on the grass? I have even wondered if there was some sort of time glitch (a la Narnia) where the whole graveyard scene (which must have lasted about an hour) was just a blip in Hogwarts time. That doesn't seem likely, though, since the graveyard and Hogwarts aren't in two different worlds. I would love to know what theories people have on this question. I've always tried to imagine Ron and Hermione, and what they were doing during that whole part. Deb331 From sailor_moirae at hotmail.com Thu Oct 17 14:55:46 2002 From: sailor_moirae at hotmail.com (sailor_moirae) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 14:55:46 -0000 Subject: Vernon Dursley being related to Molly Weasley? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45461 I'm not too sure how much basis my theory has but I believe that Vernon and Molly may be related. He could be the cousin that is an accountant. Now, feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but Ron doesn't say for sure that the cousin is an accountant. Coming from a Wizarding Family, they do not know much about Muggles and thus, Muggle professions. And when Molly is at the Platform, Vernon keeps eyeing her suspuciously (PoA) and in GoF, he's not even on the platform with her. sailor_moirae From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Oct 17 15:15:09 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 10:15:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What happened while Harry was gone? (was: Task 3 point of view) Message-ID: <18779886.1034867709911.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45462 Deb331 wrote: > When Harry and Cedric were portkeyed away, what did the crowd know of > what was happening? Was Dumbledore aware that something had gone > wrong? Was everyone else in the crowd aware, or did they just think > the tasks were taking a VERY long time? Were the professors all > running around trying to solve the mystery of the missing champions, > until Harry showed up face down on the grass? I think that yes, everyone was aware. However, I don't think the crowd (or all of them) quite knew what to make of it. Perhaps they thought, as Harry and Cedric briefly did, that being teleported was part of the task. They had to be able to see, wasn't that the point of having the maze on the Quidditch field? It seems they did have a good view from the stands. Dumbledore and those "in charge" would have known something was terribly wrong, as they hadn't in fact made the cup into a portkey. So they knew someone had, and I'm sure Dumbledore immediately knew Harry was in big trouble, but had no way to help him. If I'm remembering correctly, didn't Harry and Cedric turn up at the edge of the maze? Perhaps Dumbledore etc. were making their way into the maze during the time they were gone, looking for clues or something. In which case they may have been on their way back out, allowing for a brief moment before the footsteps, etc. that Harry heard. As for Mrs. Weasley, I'm sure she'd already started her "I knew they shouldn't have let Harry do this, he's too young, he's too little, something terrible has happened, etc." Richelle ---------- --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > Pip!Squeak replied: > >>>I think Dumbledore was fooled (and he* was* fooled, he did not plan > the Graveyard Scene) by the `no apparition in and out of Hogwarts' > rule. The maze was patrolled by Moody,(who he hadn't spotted as Crouch > Jr,) Professor McGonagall, Professor Flitwick and Hagrid. The hazards > within were known (he thought). With loyal wizards patrolling the > entrances and exits, no one could get in the maze to harm Harry. A > rejigged Portkey never occurred to him...<<< > > Me (Melody): > To add to what Pip said...the maze was on the Quidditch field. All > the judges (which includes Dumbledore), students, parents, and other > teachers (i.e. Snape) were in the stands, which are raised from the > ground originally for better view of Quidditch, but come in handy to > have a bird's-eye-view of a very tall maze. All eyes were on the > competitors and were able to see all that was going on in the maze. > Hey, the audience at least had better seats in Task #3 than they did > in Task #2. > > Judge Dumbledore was *supposed* to watch Harry, and Non-patroling > Snape was completely free to *only* watch Harry. > > Melody This thread on the spectators of the third task (including popcorn!) is indirectly related to a question that has long lingered in the back of my brain: When Harry and Cedric were portkeyed away, what did the crowd know of what was happening? Was Dumbledore aware that something had gone wrong? Was everyone else in the crowd aware, or did they just think the tasks were taking a VERY long time? Were the professors all running around trying to solve the mystery of the missing champions, until Harry showed up face down on the grass? I have even wondered if there was some sort of time glitch (a la Narnia) where the whole graveyard scene (which must have lasted about an hour) was just a blip in Hogwarts time. That doesn't seem likely, though, since the graveyard and Hogwarts aren't in two different worlds. I would love to know what theories people have on this question. I've always tried to imagine Ron and Hermione, and what they were doing during that whole part. Deb331 ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wpfositpoi at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 15:08:39 2002 From: wpfositpoi at yahoo.com (wpfositpoi) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 15:08:39 -0000 Subject: Description of Cho Chang Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45463 Has Rowling ever described Cho in her books beyond being "pretty"? I think it's odd that she goes into such detail on other charaters (i.e. hair/eye color, etc.) but has given us nothing on Cho. Is it implied that she has Asian characteristics? Is she waiting until Cho is a more prominent character? Or is there something secret about Cho that Rowling doesn't want to give away just yet? Maybe she's related to someone and looks like them? Any theories? wpfositpoi From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Oct 17 15:29:33 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 10:29:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Vernon Dursley being related to Molly Weasley? Message-ID: <32638310.1034868573898.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45464 > I'm not too sure how much basis my theory has but I believe that > Vernon and Molly may be related. He could be the cousin that is an > accountant. Now, feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but Ron > doesn't say for sure that the cousin is an accountant. Coming from a > Wizarding Family, they do not know much about Muggles and thus, > Muggle professions. And when Molly is at the Platform, Vernon keeps > eyeing her suspuciously (PoA) and in GoF, he's not even on the > platform with her. > > sailor_moirae I really doubt it. Why would Ron say that the cousin was an accountant if he was in fact a drill salesman? Anyway, in GoF Uncle Vernon is waiting beyond the barrier with "Mrs. Weasley standing close by him." So this time they're closer to each other than they've ever been. My personal belief on that matter is that dear Molly had just finished giving him a long list of threats if he so much as harmed a hair on Harry's head over the summer. :) Richelle ---------- I'm not too sure how much basis my theory has but I believe that Vernon and Molly may be related. He could be the cousin that is an accountant. Now, feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but Ron doesn't say for sure that the cousin is an accountant. Coming from a Wizarding Family, they do not know much about Muggles and thus, Muggle professions. And when Molly is at the Platform, Vernon keeps eyeing her suspuciously (PoA) and in GoF, he's not even on the platform with her. sailor_moirae ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wpfositpoi at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 15:13:58 2002 From: wpfositpoi at yahoo.com (wpfositpoi) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 15:13:58 -0000 Subject: Lestrange Jr. at Hogwarts? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45465 Does anyone think that the Lestranges had a child and that child is now at Hogwarts? I'm guessing the Lestranges will be busted out of Azkaban soon so we'll be learning more about them. Would their child be good or evil? Would they know of their past? What if it was Cho? Wouldn't than be interesting? "wpfositpoi" From robgonz0 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 15:48:14 2002 From: robgonz0 at yahoo.com (Robert Gonzalez) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 10:48:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Second Daugther Theory References: Message-ID: <004e01c275f4$9b7373e0$18fea8c0@WorkGroup> No: HPFGUIDX 45466 ----- Original Message ----- From: Michelle > Thirdly: > This is a personal opinion but we already have 6 Weasley boys - if > the *missing child* did turn out to be a boy it wouldn't be that > special - we've already got enough male Weasleys to ponder about > without the addition of another one! I female Weasley would stand out > more purely because of the relative rarity. Me: I somewhat agree with your comments Michelle. However, the point of the Missing/6th son theory is that it would make Ron the 7th son in an uninterupted line of sons. A birth order position of great mythological portent. Usually though, it's the 7th son of a 7th son and though we havn't heard anything about Ron's extended family you'd think 6 uncles would be hard to avoid mentioning. (Unless they were all dead!) My mom came from a large family of 7 or 8 siblings and the Holidays for me are usually a big affair because of it. Still though I think it would be cool if it turned out to be true. The 7th son of a 7th son has been used to explain, werewolves, vampires, the Jersey Devil and a whole host of other strange happenings. I believe most British folklore attributes healing powers to the 7th son. Rob P.S. Also check out Orson Scott Card's book, "Seventh Son". Very good reading. From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Thu Oct 17 15:54:34 2002 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (K-lo) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:54:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Vernon Dursley being related to Molly Weasley? In-Reply-To: <32638310.1034868573898.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45467 >> >I really doubt it. Why would Ron say that the cousin was an accountant if >> he >> >was in fact a drill salesman? Anyway, in GoF Uncle Vernon is waiting beyond >> >the barrier with "Mrs. Weasley standing close by him." So this time they're >> >closer to each other than they've ever been. My personal belief on that >> matter >> >is that dear Molly had just finished giving him a long list of threats if he >> so >> >much as harmed a hair on Harry's head over the summer. :) > >> >Richelle > ---------- > Perhaps Molly isn?t related to Vernon, but maybe she is to Petunia? I?ve wondered for a while why Lily has red hair and Petunia has black hair. Of course, maybe she dyes it so that she doesn?t have to be reminded who she?s related to? Or, maybe Petunia and Lilly aren?t true sisters, but maybe half-sisters? -Padawanmage [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 16:43:32 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:43:32 -0000 Subject: What happened while Harry was gone? (was: Task 3 point of view) In-Reply-To: <18779886.1034867709911.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45468 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rvotaw at i... wrote: > > Deb331 wrote: > > > When Harry and Cedric were portkeyed away, what did the crowd > > know of what was happening? > ...big snip... Richelle replied: > I think that yes, everyone was aware. However, I don't think the > crowd (or all of them) quite knew what to make of it. Perhaps they > thought, as Harry and Cedric briefly did, that being teleported was > part of the task. ...big snip... > > Richelle bboy_mn with a couple of minor points: There are some people who think that the Tri-Wizard's Cup was always a portkey, but Fake!Moody added an extra stop. This is based on Harry returning outside the maze; I believe he returned to the entrance of the maze. So some people suspect the Cup was intended to do that all along; bring the winner out of the maze. Assuming that's true, and assuming the Cup area at the center of the maze was a somewhat larger open area so everyone could see the winner take the cup, the problem didn't occur when Harry and Cedric disappear, but when they failed to reappear at the entrance of the maze. I'm sure it took a couple of minute of uneasy silence before it hit Dumbledore that something had gone wrong. But what? Then when Dumbledore and the teachers started freaking out, I'm sure the crowd figured it out pretty fast. They must have been going nuts during the (What?) hour that Harry was gone. What could they do? I can't think of or even imagine any test or spell that might have helped them figure it out. A couple other somewhat unrelated points. Why on earth were the referees (or whatever you want to call them) patrolling the perimiter of the maze on foot. That would mean fake!Moody was the only person who could see anything. What could the others do beside hang around and wait for someone to send up sparks. Wouldn't it have made more sense to have the 'guards' patroling on brooms so they could actually see what was going on in the maze, and be ready to swoop down at any sign of real danger? Next, why isn't Madam Pomfry at these and other dangerous events so that she can render first aid as soon as possible? Sorry, none of that probably helps much. Just a few thoughts that came to me. bboy_mn From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 17 16:43:51 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:43:51 -0000 Subject: Vernon Dursley being related to Molly Weasley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45469 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., K-lo wrote: > Perhaps Molly isn?t related to Vernon, but maybe she is to Petunia? I?ve > wondered for a while why Lily has red hair and Petunia has black hair. This is only the case in the celluoid-thing-that-must-not-be-named.In the book she has blonde hair I believe. Eileen From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 16:55:02 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:55:02 -0000 Subject: Description of Cho Chang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45470 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "wpfositpoi" wrote: > Has Rowling ever described Cho in her books beyond being "pretty"? I > think it's odd that she goes into such detail on other charaters > (i.e. hair/eye color, etc.) but has given us nothing on Cho. Is it > implied that she has Asian characteristics? Is she waiting until Cho > is a more prominent character? Or is there something secret about > Cho that Rowling doesn't want to give away just yet? Maybe she's > related to someone and looks like them? Any theories? > > wpfositpoi bboy_mn: Pure speculation on my part but... I'm guessing that since her name makes her very obviously Asian, that it's easy to assume all her characteristics. We have a pretty Asian girl. It's safe to assume she is not a tall, blue eyed, blond, pretty Asian girl. Knowing she is Asian an pretty is enough for most Anglos to assume all her charateristics. I do agree thought, that Cho Chang will become more prominent in the story, although, I seem to be one of the few who does believe that. Just a thought. bboy_mn From jayenks at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 16:59:24 2002 From: jayenks at yahoo.com (Jackie) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 09:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fame in the Wizarding World (was: About Florence) Message-ID: <20021017165924.28789.qmail@web40310.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45471 Sherry said- > > > She, of course, could be older. Frank > Longbottom is well respected > > in > > > the auror world and well liked. As established > in the community as > > > they were, I wonder if they are not at least ten > years older than > > > Snape. While it is possible that they > established such a reputation > > > quickly, I doubt it is plausible. (snip) > I believe that Lily and James are well known so > early in adulthood simply > because everybody goes to the same school. We know > that James played > Quidditch, which only 28 students in any given year > have the opportunity to do, > and the sport is wildly popular, so this would > automatically have put him in > the spotlight. As his girlfriend, Lily would also > be well-known even if she > never did anything else to get noticed (and I > suspect she did). Okay, I have an idea for all you following this thread to think about. Amy Fisher. Lorena Bobbit. Jon Benet. Lots of people whose names are common knowledge in our world are common knowledge because of crimes they have done or have had done to them. It is entirely possible that the Longbottoms, the Potters, the Pettigrews, all of them are famous _because_ of the fight with Voldemort and his followers and what was done to them. Mr. Longbottom didn't have to be a famous auror before he was tortured, the torture and consequent interment in St. Mungos would have been enough to make him famous. In fact, the quote is: "The Longbottoms were very popular," said Dumbledore. "The attacks on them came after Voldemort's fall from power, just when everyone thought they were safe. Those attacks caused a wave of fury such as I have never known. The Ministry was under great pressure to catch those who had done it. Unfortunately, the Longbottom's evidence was--given their condition--none too reliable." GOF chapter 30, the Pensieve, US hardcover pg. 603 We can't deduce from the clues given just what made them famous in the first place. In fact, the way that Dumbledore says it, it sounds to me like maybe they were famous just because they were tortured and people wanted justice for them, not because they had made a huge splash in the wizarding world before this. ~Jaye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jayenks at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 16:56:01 2002 From: jayenks at yahoo.com (Jackie) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 09:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hogwarts Student Population Message-ID: <20021017165601.16611.qmail@web40307.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45472 > GulPlum continues: > CoS (p. 67, UK ed): "They hurried up it, right to the top, and at > last reached the door of their old dormitory, which now had a sign > on it saying SECOND YEARS." It doesn't say "second years room 1" > or "Finnigan, Longbottom, Potter, Weasley, Thomas". It simply says "second > years". > bboy_mn replies: > You would emphasize the words "Second Years". I > would emphasize the > words "OLD DORMITORY". Harry went back to the same > room he had the > previous year; his OLD DORMITORY, which is the same > room he goes back > to every year. He doesn't have to search for a sign > to know which one > it is. So *IF* there are others in his year, they do > the same thing. > They go back to the same room that they've had since > the beginning, > and find the sign changed to indicate their current > year. "SECOND > YEARS" proves nothing other than Harry is one year > farther along in > school. > GulPlum: > > > > I see the "second years" label as quite > conclusive, ... > bboy_mn: > And obviously, I don't. I still don't see why the door that says 'Second Years' couldn't lead to a hallway or group of rooms. Also, since no one else has mentioned 'magic doors', I will. What if the 'Second Years' door is magic and understands that when Harry and Ron are entering, they should be put in room 4, so it opens to that room automatically. Teachers and people like Sirius Black would have to tell the door which room they wanted, but it would still not be a major problem. I argue these points because I just find it easier to accept this world JK Rowling has built on her terms. After all, she is the author. If she says there are 1000 students in the school, I believe her. I just argue to make what she says true. Now, I know that the interviews are not as canon as what we see in the books, but I still believe that this is a very little point to disagree with her on (on the other hand, I am fighting vehemently for her over this 'little point', so maybe it's not so moot after all ;D ) ~Jaye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Oct 17 17:28:09 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:28:09 -0000 Subject: What happened while Harry was gone? (was: Task 3 point of view) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45473 If really everybody were aware, that Harry and Cedric were portkeyed away, that means, they must have seen the champions during the maze. Then why nobody cared, when Moody attacked Fleur or put the imperizus curse on Krum? Or when Krum put "Cruciatus" an Cedric? Hickengruendler From crussell at arkansas.net Thu Oct 17 17:40:46 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:40:46 -0000 Subject: Questions Harry needs to ask Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45474 I just got to thinking if I were Harry, what questions would I be asking? IMO, he has already asked the most important question: why did Voldemort want to kill me? He asked this in book 1 and did not receive an answer. IMO, there are other questions that he should want to know the answer to- and here they are: 1) who were the Potters? - what was there reputation-good or bad? (all he knows about is James); 2) how did the Potters gain their fortune?; 3) am I the only Potter left-if so, what happened to the others? and 4) did my mother have any special talents-if so, what were they? Does anybody have an opinion in regards to any of these questions? If you do, I would love to hear them. Also if you can think of any other questions you-as Harry- should ask, let me hear those too. JKR has stated Harry will start asking more questions in book 5- I hope some of them are those listed above. bugaloo37 From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 17 17:44:29 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:44:29 -0000 Subject: TBAY(slightly referenced) - Why we care (Re: Hogwarts Student Population) In-Reply-To: <20021017165601.16611.qmail@web40307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45475 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jackie wrote: > I argue these points because I just find it easier to accept this world JK Rowling has built on her terms. After all, she is the author. If she says there are 1000 students in the school, I believe her. I just argue to make what she says true. Now, I know that the interviews are not as canon as what we see in the books, but I still believe that this is a very little point to disagree with her on (on the other hand, I am fighting vehemently for her over this 'little point', so maybe it's not so moot after all ;D ) > I would suspect the reason why the argument is so vehement is that this is not a 'little point' at all. I would place the "Hogwarts Numbers" discussions right on the fault line Elkins so vividly described the other day. ---------------------------- Thematic consistency, Jo! Thematic consistency! For God's sake, is it really all that much to ask? Oh, well. I guess that we really can't complain too much about the fault line, can we? After all, if it weren't for that little quirk of geology, then this Bay wouldn't even exist. --------------------------------- Choice vs. Blood The Hogwarts Numbers discussion has far-reaching implications. If Hogwarts has a 1,000 students and is the only wizarding school in Britain, it's possible that all magic children are schooled therein. If not, it isn't. Issues arise. Questions of a wizarding elite. Where are the working classes? This is a fundamentally disturbing aspect of the books, if one is to judge by the heated debates on this list. No-one feels entirely comfortable with this, though many take the position that we should not read Hogwarts as classist, despite reasons to do just that, because there are equally good reasons to discount these features as accident. Reasons having to do with Rowling's promotion of Choice not Blood, as the telling factor. The reason the Hogwarts Numbers debate comes up again and again (until most oldbies are clicking past groaning) is that it's one of the most important debates inspired by the book. It's not one that most people feel comfortable with just having read the Lexicon's and other people's opinions on the matter. People need to adress it themselves b/c it changes everything. A large Hogwarts swings the dial towards Choice. A small Hogwarts towards Blood. And the futher the dial swings towards Blood, the more tension in the Potterverse, the books, and the fandom. Eileen From jayenks at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 17:31:15 2002 From: jayenks at yahoo.com (Jackie) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 10:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What happened while Harry was gone? (was: Task 3 point of view) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021017173115.93979.qmail@web40309.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45476 bboy_mn wrote: Next, why isn't Madam Pomfry at these and other dangerous events so that she can render first aid as soon as possible? me: I can help with that one. She had other students in the hospital wing she had to care for, maybe. Or she needed to be available if other students needed her. The triwizard contestants are not the only ones that could need her for that time. She needs to be in some place where everyone can find her. During the lake competition she is in a medtent: easily recognizable to everyone as where to go if they need help. She is there to serve everyone at the school, not just the champions. It does bring up the question, however, why Dumbledore didn't hire a medwizard just for the tournament times? Perhaps because he thought Madame Pomfrey could handle it all? ~Jaye --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 18:00:36 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:00:36 -0000 Subject: What happened while Harry was gone? (was: Task 3 point of view) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45477 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "hickengruendler" wrote: > If really everybody were aware, that Harry and Cedric were portkeyed > away, that means, they must have seen the champions during the maze. > Then why nobody cared, when Moody attacked Fleur or put the imperizus > curse on Krum? Or when Krum put "Cruciatus" an Cedric? > > Hickengruendler bboy_mn: Tricky question. Based on my theory that the stands are elevated above the hedges, people could see into the maze, but no one had complete view all the time. The people in the center of the stands could easily see into the rows of hedges that were perpendicular (at right angles) to the stands, but couldn't see when the champions were in hedge rows parallel to the center of the stands. Now the people on the ends of the stands would have a better view of the parallel hedge rows, and a worse view of the perpendicular row. And, of course, the higher in the stands you are, the better you can see. The point is nobody could see everything all the time. Fake!Moody may have pick locations in the maze that had minimum visibility when he made these things happen. Also, since all sound coming into the maze appeared to be blocked, it's possible that all sound going out of the maze was blocked. So when Krum attacked Cedric, all the crowd saw was Cerdic on the ground and Krum standing near by. No real indication of what either of them was doing, and again, it was probably only visible to a limited number of people. Given this limited visibility, it's possible that the people who could see fake!Moody muttering incantations and waving his wand, couldn't see anything happening in the maze to connect the two. So, no real way to connect Moody's actions with events happening in the maze. I also think that the location of the Cup was not a hedge row, but a large square area at the center of the maze where everyone could see the winning champion take the trophy. That's not based on canon, just on what I see as a logical way to set up a maze for an event like this. When Harry and Cedric were next to the spider discussing who should take the Trohpy, they were standing in a narrow hedge row and were only visible to a very limited number of people. When they walked together to take the trophy, I think they were visible to a majority of people. They disappeared, although most people didn't know that they portkeyed, and when they didn't re-appear outside the maze in a minute or two, Dumbledore and everyone else started to freak out. Dumbledore and the staff must have felt incredably powerless and helpless. No wonder Dumbledore was looking old afterwards. He probably aged 50 years from worry while Harry was gone. As far as Harry and Cedric portkeying, I'm one of those who believes that they were intended to portkey. The Cup was intended to portkey the winner outside the maze. So when they dissapeared it wasn't that big a deal. People didn't start sweating blood until they failed to reappear. Just a few thoughts on the subject. bboy_mn From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Oct 17 18:13:01 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:13:01 -0000 Subject: What happened while Harry was gone? (was: Task 3 point of view) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45478 > > Deb331 wrote: > > > > > When Harry and Cedric were portkeyed away, what did the crowd > > > know of what was happening? > > ...big snip... bboy: > Assuming that's true, and assuming the Cup area at the center of the maze was a somewhat larger open area so everyone could see the winner take the cup, the problem didn't occur when Harry and Cedric disappear, but when they failed to reappear at the entrance of the maze. I'm sure it took a couple of minute of uneasy silence before it hit Dumbledore that something had gone wrong. But what? Then when Dumbledore and the teachers started freaking out, I'm sure the crowd > figured it out pretty fast. They must have been going nuts during the (What?) hour that Harry was gone. What could they do? I can't think of or even imagine any test or spell that might have helped them figure it out.<<< Me: I did a long post on this once, but the gist of my theory was that the magically weaker judges were confunded by fake!Moody, while the stronger ones were inside the maze, and out of communication, attending to Fleur and Viktor. The crowd was probably being told it was all part of the show, that the champions would be reappearing shortly, they're just being checked over by Madame Pomfrey, etc. As for where she was, well, she probably was near the maze, just as she was at the other two tasks. It's clueless (or Evil!) Fudge who says that Harry should go to the Hospital Wing. Bboy: > A couple other somewhat unrelated points. Why on earth were the referees (or whatever you want to call them) patrolling the perimiter of the maze on foot. That would mean fake!Moody was the only person who could see anything. What could the others do beside hang around and wait for someone to send up sparks. Wouldn't it have made more sense to have the 'guards' patroling on brooms so they could actually > see what was going on in the maze, and be ready to swoop down at any sign of real danger? Me: There must have been some kind of charm to keep people from flying over the maze, or the champions could have used broomsticks themselves. Harry could have summoned his Firebolt and flown straight to the Cup. The sparks seem to have been the only way those in the maze could communicate with those outside it, and there should have been no way for people outside the maze to communicate with those inside it, regardless of what they could see. Otherwise people in the audience could have given signals or directions to those inside maze. Also, the spectators wouldn't know that Krum had performed Crucio on Cedric just from watching. There are minor curses that make people twitch, like the one that Draco used on Harry at the duelling club. Assuming the soundproofing charm works both ways, the crowd wouldn't have been able to hear the screams. Pippin From jodel at aol.com Thu Oct 17 19:22:59 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 15:22:59 EDT Subject: Where is the bathroom? Message-ID: <126.187db572.2ae06813@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45479 Stever posts a nice puzzle regarding just what floor Moaning Myrtle's bathroom is on, touching upon the knotty first floor/ground floor problem between British and American usage. I'm not sure of the actual level of Myrtle's bathroom, but the floor name knot unravels a bit when you realize where the terms came from. It's been some years, but i think I'm still fairly accurate on this; The term came from the way castles are built. Traditionally, the people who built castles didn't necessarily excavate a hole under them. (Palaces may be another issue altogether, but we're talking about castles here.) The foundation stones may have been set into the earth, but the outer wall is built on top of them with no sub-basement. The dirt-floored "ground" floor was actually on the ground, and the entrance was not on that level, because it was better and easier to defend an entrance one level up. Ergo, the "first" floor = the entry floor. The ground floor is chiefly used for storage. Of course this is just a castle "keep", not the whole castle complex, which includes the stables courtyard and a good deal of other things which are on the ground level. If Hogwarts Castle is built acording to this manner (and it's older than the Tower of London, so it ought to be) the dungeons are actually the "ground" floor. The "first" floor is the main entry floor and the rest follows. Except in a wizarding world, which may have it's own principles of architecture. From jodel at aol.com Thu Oct 17 19:22:54 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 15:22:54 EDT Subject: Dark Conspiracy; was; TBAY:Weasley Predisposition To Imperius? Message-ID: <187.f9227e4.2ae0680e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45480 Elkins writes; >>I've always found myself curious about Lucius' plans for that Diary, actually. The timing of his slipping it to Ginny always seems to suggest to me that it was actually a spur of the moment decision, that Lucius was inspired by seeing the Weasleys there in the shop (not to mention by his brawl with Arthur and his irritation with the recent raids on his manor), and that he acted on that sudden impulse. But if that's true, then one can't help but wonder what the *original* plan was supposed to be. Did he originally intend to use Draco to get the Diary to Hogwarts? That seems unlikely, given that he went out of his way to warn Draco to stay well out of the entire affair. Also, he did bring the Diary with him to Diagon Alley, which seems to suggest that it had been his plan from the very start to slip it into *some* student's kit. I think that he meant to give it to Harry. From the very start, it is *Harry* Dobby identifies as particularly endangered by the Diary plot, and it is Harry Dobby tries to keep away from Hogwarts by any means possible. ... ...My feeling is that Harry was the intended recipient for the Diary, and that Lucius changed his plan at the last minute out of pure malice and spite. Of course, that doesn't mean that he couldn't have known all about Arthur's tangle with Imperius, or even suspected that Arthur's children might be vulnerable. But I don't think that Ginny was his original choice to serve as the conveyor of Riddle's Diary to Hogwarts. << Welcome aboard The Dark Conspiriacy. I've been harping on this for the past year. (WELL before joining this list.) I even posted it here, when I first showed up, a couple of months ago. (I never go onto the site so I have no clue what the post # was. The Digest doesn't give that info.) Thank you for picking it up. It was a portkey, you realize. But, by now, I'm sure you also realize that this isn't actually a ship. Yes. I say. I say that Harry *was* the intended recipient of the Riddle Diary. Nothing else makes any kind of sense. WHy on earth would Dobby try to warn Harry off of Hogwarts over a threat to Ginny Weasley, who he hasn't even (at that point) properly met? In all we get an interesting glimpse of tangled motives, non-communication and cross-purposes regarding Dobby's warning to Harry Potter. The warning was clearly Dobby's own axe to grind. He knew of the plot, but did not have the authority to contact Harry on his own initiative. Lucius has authority to burn, but he was spearheading the plot and would not have given Harry Potter the slightest hint that anything was up. The Weasley twins suggested that it was Draco who sent Dobby to try to keep Potter from retrning to Hogwarts. This is a bit fortuitous, but will just about work. Lucius Malfoy is not about to share his plans with a whiny 12-year-old. But Draco, as the son of the house, does have the authority to send Dobby on errands. Now, just how cunning is Dobby? He clearly is of the "Harry Potter is the saviour of the Wizarding World" persuasion, regardless of who his employers are. He has been aware of Lucius's plans for Harry Potter since the plot was first hatched. But there is no way that he can contact the boy or give him any kind of warning within the bounds of his "contract" with the Malfoy family. Did he grasp the opportunity of hearing yet another session of Draco's grousing over "that wretched Potter" to lead a conversation to the point of getting Draco to order him to keep Potter away from Hogwarts? That's the only solution I can think of, off-hand that meets all the requirements acto information we have been given up to that point (and since). Now, on the other end of the equation; why did Lucius Malfoy choose *that particular moment* to deploy the Riddle diary in the first place? He knew when Potter was going to be starting Hogwarts. Why did he feel that it would be any easier to aproach him at the beginning of second year, rather than first, or third, or any other year? He has been safekeeping the diary (and, it is implied, other belongings of Tom Riddle) since the Dark Lord's fall. In common with Dumbledore, he knows that Voldemort is not dead, just absent. He does not have the authority to make free use of LV's property. Why did he suddenly decide to do it? And does it *really* make sense that QuirrellMort would make *no* contact with *any* of his followers? Particularly once it was clear that Quirrell's body was failing? QuirrellMort was in a bind by the end of the school year. He didn't trust Snape, because it wasn't clear exactly where his loyalties lay. He *had been* a follower, but Dumbledore may have won him over since then. Besides, who knew just how all-encompassing Dumbledore's security system was inside Hogwarts. No, better to do nothing which will show his hand openly here in Hogwarts. But there are plenty of owls for everyone's use, and Dumbledore doesn't read the staff's private mail. By the time he was killing unicorns to survive, it was clear that the Stone was in a labrynth which was designed to serve as a trap, and that he was unlikely to have more than one real chance at it. Afterwards he was going to have to make a break for it. His first priority is to capture the Philosophers' Stone, and to escape with it. Killing the Potter brat is a good deal lower on his list. After the failed attempt to throw the boy off his broom, QuirrellMort seems not to have interfered with Harry at all. And if Harry hadn't meddled in matters by entering the labrynth when he wasn't supposed to, QuirrellMort would have been stuck at the Mirror until Dumbledore and his allies caught him there, unless he gave up and left without the Stone. Their final confrontation would not have happened in that book. Killing Potter in his own (stolen) person while at Hogwarts is too big a risk for too small a result. Which does NOT mean that he intends to allow Potter to live. Potter remains unfinished business. However, while at Hogwarts, Quirrell's failing body reminds him that he left a piece of himself behind at Hogwarts in the diary, and that if that fragment could be brought out of it, the revenant might well provide a willing and compatable host for his non-corporeal consionsness. The Elixer of Life would keep Quirrell alive more handily than unicorn blood, but he is able to move from one body to another and a fresh body with a willing host would be a far better candidate to share his immortality with. With a wonderful added bonus in the symetry which required that in order to call the revenant out of the diary, another life will be needed in trade. An exquisitely appropriate way of settling the score with Potter. How could Voldemort, from what we have seen of him, possibly resist it? I do not know just when Lucius was first contacted, nor how Voldemort framed the contact. He would have needed to make sure that Lucius knew it was not a hoax, but I suspect that he didn't attempt to try to convince Lucius that he was back, tanned, rested and ready to party. And I think that the contact was all in one direction with Lucius holding himself in readiness for ins tructions as a back-up. His place on the Board of Governors would have made intercession possible, should it have prooved necessary. As I've stated before, I believe that one of the last things QuirrellMort did before entering the labryinth was to owl Lucius Malfoy to tell him to deploy the Riddle diary. And that he clearly instructed Lucius to give it to Potter. We saw the plot go awry when Arthur dragged Lucius into a fistfight at Flourish & Blotts and things got personal. However, Lucius Malfoy was very much in evidence all through Harry's second year. Just about everywhere you turned yohu saw him and the Board of Governors, and their dictates. In Goblet, Voldemort's coldness toward his "slippery friend" Lucius seems singularly ungrateful given the efforts that Lucius had plainly been expending all through CoS toward getting his Master back. That the attempt had not succeeded was not for lack of trying on Lucius's part. Until you factor in the possibility that Voldemort has a specific *reason* to hold that particular failure against Malfoy. And I suspect that not following orders to the letter may be that reason. One begins to wonder just what the specifics of which failure were that he holds against the DE who he tortured with crucio (Avery? or Nott?). Oh, by the way. The door is not locked. Of course the doorknob could be another portkey... -JOdel From abigailnus at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 19:29:32 2002 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 19:29:32 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Operative!Arthur Attacks Auror!Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45481 Abigail just can't believe her luck. She was really enjoying her new cabin on the Imperius!Arthur trimaran - it was quite an improvement over the dorm rooms at Canon College - Stoned!Harry could be quite a difficult roomate. And here she is, less than a week on board, up on disciplinary charges! "I hope you realise the gravity of your situation, young lady." Says Captain Veronica, who is taking the loss of a Pina Colada very seriously. = "Your reckelss behaviour came very close to running this vessel aground! Whatever do you mean by calling Imperius!Arthur unnecessary?" "That's a dirty lie!" Abigail cries. "My words were taken out of context!= I am a loyal crewmember on the Imperius!Arthur!" "A reliable deckhand quoted you to me word for word." Veronica says quietly. "You would do well to tell me the truth." Abigail opts, as a last resort, for honesty. "Alright, so maybe I rocked the boat a little - but Cindy goaded me into it! She was trying to say that without Imperius!Arthur, there's no reason for Arthur to keep his Auror past secret from his children, and I was trying to explain how there = could be plenty of reasons for Arthur to do this even if he had nothing in = his past to be ashamed of. And as long as we're talking about rocking the = boat, Cindy very nearly capsized it by torpedoeing the holy trinity of Moody's Unforgivable curses lesson!" "I have already dealt with that matter, and this discussion is about you." = Says Veronica, but she's beginning to look a bit less deadly, and Abigail senses that she may not be thrown overboard today after all. However, there might be a way of making sure of that... "To be honest, I'm not sure what Cindy is doing on this ship." She adds, off-handly. Veronica's face hardens, "What do you mean, crewmember?" "Well, why is Operative!Arthur necessary, anyway?" Abigail waves Veronica away as she begins to speak. "I know, it's *bangy*. But that implies that Auror!Arthur isn't bangy, which is patently not true." "Auror!Arthur deals with the past, whereas Operative!Arthur addresses the coming battle." Veronica parrots, but it's clear that Abigail's argume= nts are getting to her. "Auror!Arthur does indeed postulate about Arthur's past, but it's an unspok= en and, I think quite obvious, assumption is that in the coming battle, Aurors= will be needed. We already know that Arthur is going to become part of 'the new crowd'. If he was indeed an Auror there is every reason to expect= him to take up that task again in the new fight against Voldemort." Abigai= l crosses her arms in front of her. "There - it's bangy *and* it deals with = the coming battle - what is Operative!Arthur's distinction? Except of course f= or introuducing the concept of Unspeakable!Arthur, which is..." "You already tried to argue against the logic of making Arthur an Unspeakable." Veronica notes. "And you fell flat on your face when it turned out that you misremembered the canon. I have to tell you, I thought= Canon College had higher admission standards. *And* you tried to place Unspeakables on the GARBAGESCOW, which turned out to be quite a mistake." Abigail hangs her head in shame, and to think that she got such good marks in Canon 101! "That's true, it turns out that only Arthur identifies= the two Unspeakables at the QWC, and that no-one else has reaction to them.= And Cindy very astutely pointed out that those two Unspeakables worked for = the department of Mysteries - the same department led by the DE spy Rookwood, which means that they belong anywhere but on the SCOW. But I think I may have found a way to turn Cindy's canon against her. In fact," = Abigail beams, "I have a three-pronged attack!" "Here on the trimaran, that's out favorite kind!" Criess Veronica. "Do go = on!" "First," Abigail holds up one finger, "it's Arthur himself who identifies t= he Unspeakables to Harry - if I may draw your attention back to 'Bagman and Crouch': ------------ "There was plenty to watch while they waited, however. Their tent seemed to be pitched right alongside a kind of throughfare to the pitch, and Minis= try members kept hurrying up and down it, greeting Mr. Weasley cordially as the= y passed. Mr. Weasley kep up a running commentary, mainly for Harry and Hermione's benefit; his own children knew too much about the Ministry to be= greatly interested." ------------ "There follows the introduction of several Ministry members and their job description, including Bode and Croaker the Unspeakables. The information = is volounteered by Arthur. Harry doesn't ask for it, and when he does ask = what Unspeakables are, Arthur cheerfully adds the department for which the two work for. Now, I ask you, is this good operative behaviour? To admit to the existence of your professsion (and isn't the first defense of = a spy the denial that he exists?) and identify by name and department two of your colleagues without even being prompted for the information? I think not." "Second," Abigail holds up a second finger, "Arthur is supposed to be a good guy, right? His job as an operative is to look out for Dark Wizards and presumably use that knowledge to the benefit of Dumledore's side, right? Then why are the only two Unspeakables we have ever been introduced to working for a department formerly under the leadership of a Death Eater Spy?" "There's no reason to believe that the entire department is corrupt because it's former director was a spy." Veronica points out reasonably, "In fact, GoF leads us to believe that every one of Rookwood's contacts was investigated after he was found out - even down to a foolish profession= al Quidditch player like Bagman." "True, but you can't deny that the first thing one associates with the titl= e Department of Mysteries is Augustus Rookwood" "The first thing Cindy associated with it, you mean." Veronica points out.= "Yes, thank you." Abigail says testily. "In fact, since we're talking abo= ut associations, why don't we discuss the job title 'Unspeakable' for a moment= ? Yes, it's a clever pun it that it's a person of whom one is not allowed to = speak, but what words do we usually attach in our minds to the word 'unspeakable'?= Negative ones - unspeakable crime, unspeakable horror. The connotation is = not good. Add to that the two men's names - Bode and Croaker - and one can't help but think of death and darkness. The overall impression formed = by the two-line introduction in 'Bagman and Crouch' and the Pensieve scene is = that an Unspeakable is not a person you'd like to be associated with - hard= ly descriptive of Arthur Weasley." "But according to Cindy, Arthur is deep under cover." Offers Veronica. "Yes, but she has no canon to back her up!" Insists Abigail, "In fact, the = only canon we have on Unspeakables is that Arthur freely identified two of them = by name. It's only Cindy's assumption that there are different kinds of Unspeakables, and that Bode and Croaker work for the department on Mysteries whereas Arthur is under cover - and assumption which is not borne= out by the context. Observe:" ----------- "'That was Cuthbert Mockridge, Head of the Goblin Liaison Office ... her co= mes Gilbert Wimple, he's with the Committe on Experimental Charms, he's had tho= se horns for a while now ... Hello, Arnie ... Arnold Peasgood, he's an Oblivia= tor - member of the Accident Magic Reversal Squad, you know... and that's Bode and Croaker .. they're Unspeakables ...' 'They're what?' 'From the Department of Mysteries, top-secret, no idea what they get up to.= '" ----------- "The way the sentence is formed seems to indicated that, just as Obliviator= s work for Accidental Magic Reversal, Unspeakables work for the Department of= Mysteries. Which brings me to my third point." Abigail raises a third fin= ger. "I was wondering how long this was going to take." Says Veronica, who is getting quite tired of all this and wishing she was back in her deck chair = with a fresh Pina Colada. "Aren't your fingers starting to hurt?" "It seems to me," Abigail continues, ignoring her, "that we have some radically divergent views on exactly how magical law enforcement works. Cindy has suggested that wizarding law enforcement is similar to muggle law= enforcement. She thinks that Aurors are like FBI agents - cops of varying = degrees of skill and training." Veronica gasps. "Cindy said that? But that's entirely unsubstantiated, an= d even countered, by canon! Aurors are clearly defined as Dark Wizard catche= rs - nothing more or less. The wizard cops are the Magical Law Enforcement S= quad." "Exactly." Said Abigail. "And the Hit Wizards who caught Sirius were a spe= cially trained sub-division of that squad. Cindy has suggested that the Unspeakab= les are one level more elite - they do the deep undercover stuff -? the James b= ond kind of stuff. But there she shoots her own arguement in the leg, because = if Unspeakables have nothing to do with Aurors or catching Dark Wizards..." "Then they have nothing to do with the upcoming battle and it is of very li= ttle importance that Arthur is one of them!" Exclaims Veronica. "It's nothing = more than a way of making him cool! It isn't *bangy* at all because it has noth= ing to do with the coming battle!" She calms down and eyes Abigail warily, "You were= n't so militant the other day. You even tried to get Operative!Arthur and Auror!A= rthur to get along." "I did," Abigail admits with a sigh, "because I truly do see merit in some = of Cindy's arguments - not the Unspeakable part, that makes no sense to me. But I fee= l that, if we take into account that Arthur used to be an Auror, the fact that he i= s now *someone's* operative begins to make sense - it even becomes bangy again." "But did you have to bring in the Dark Arts Defense League?" Asks Veronica= . "I mean, they made Gilderoy Lockhart and honorary member." "Yes, but they also made Dumbledore a full-fledged member." Abigail points = out. "And besides, the DADL was just a suggestion I threw out as an organization= likely to have hired Arthur as an operative after he lost his job as an Auror - an= d I still think it's a likely suggestion. You don't mention - twice - an organizatio= n dedicated to fighting Dark Arts in a series in which the chief villain is a Dark Wiza= rd unless you're planning to use them at some point." "Hmmm, you might have a point there." Veronica concedes. "Well, crewmembe= r, you've made some very good points. Operative!Arthur is looking less seawor= thy by the minute." "I'm glad you think that." Abigail says with a gleam of triumph clearly vi= sible in her eye. "Because I think it's high time you pitched him overboard." Veronica is taken aback. "Throw him overboard! I, who have been compared = to Dumbledore himself in my willingness to give people second chances? Wha= t madness is this, woman?" "Oh, come on!" Abigail demands, "He's always at poor Auror!Arthur's throat= , he's plainly redundant, and Cindy nearly capsized the ship trying to make a= point about him. He's got to go!" Veronica's eyes narrow. "Are you sure that's what this is about? Concern = for the ship?" "Of course," Says Abigail, a tad defensively. Veronica begins to smile. "Because from where I'm sitting it seems a bit l= ike jealousy." "Jealousy! Hah!" But Abigail is beginning to look a bit nervous. "Whatev= er have I got to be jealous of?" "Well," Veronica offers, "Operative!Arthur does have an acronym." Abigail says nothing. "And it's such a long acronym too." Prods Veronica. "It is cumbersome." Abigail sniffs. "And I could have one too, if I wante= d to, I could come up with one right now..." "I seem to remember." Says Veronica silkily, "that you never completed Introduction to Acronym Generating. Strange that. I thought it was a required freshman course at Canon College." Abigail stands up stiffly and heads for the door. "I don't have to listen = to this. Good day, Captain." Veronica stares at the slammed-shut door. "Acronym-envy." She says and goes to order another Pina Colada. Abigail From atrocity.geo at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 18:16:19 2002 From: atrocity.geo at yahoo.com (atrocity.geo) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:16:19 -0000 Subject: Lestrange Jr. at Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45482 The Lestrange aren't chinese. they are described in detail in Crouch's trial. I doubt it would be Cho. "atrocity.geo" --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "wpfositpoi" wrote: > Does anyone think that the Lestranges had a child and that child is > now at Hogwarts? I'm guessing the Lestranges will be busted out of > Azkaban soon so we'll be learning more about them. Would their child > be good or evil? Would they know of their past? > > What if it was Cho? Wouldn't than be interesting? > > "wpfositpoi" From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 17 19:59:43 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 19:59:43 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Arthur Weasley: Auror by Night, Operative by Day, Imperio'edOccasionally In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45483 "Where are you going?" asks Cindy sharply. "I haven't heard your opinion on Imperio'ed!Arthur, Operative!Arthur, or Auror!Arthur." "Yes for Imperius. No for Auror. Undecided for Operative," says Eileen. "Imperius!Arthur is unnecessary!" cries Cindy. Abigail who has been holding a piece of plywood between her and Cindy as a shield, lowers it for a moment. "I admit that Imperius!Arthur lends further credence to Arthur's silence in the intervening years, but he's hardly *necessary*" "Why, I couldn't have said it better myself!" says Cindy. "Just don't tell Veronica that he's so very SCOW-worthy. She'll be crushed." "Really?" comes the calm voice of Captain Veronica. "Why would that be?" Cindy and Abigail look guiltily at the Captain for a second, then Cindy spoke up with glea. (Remorse never was Cindy's strong suit.) "Maybe Arthur wasn't a *victim* of the Imperius, but actually *used* it himself. Not only that, but we have evidence that Ministry wizards *could* use the Imperius - Crouch Sr. uses it himself, on his son." "Cindy, I'm all for Crouch Sr. apologetics," says Eileen. "But that was illegal." Captain Veronica on the other hand has begun to laugh hysterically. "But that's not parallel," Veronica protested. "The whole purpose of that can(n)on on board the Imperius!Arthur is that parallelism. Neville's parents were tortured with Crusiatus; Harry's parents were killed with AK. If Arthur merely *used* Imperius, or investigated those who claimed to have been controlled by the Imperius curse, it's no longer parallel!" "She has you there," says Eileen. "Parallel, schmarallel," says Cindy. "Why do I need a parallel? Elkins made up the parallel thing in the first place." "For very good reasons," says Eileen. "Find me another Crouch Jr. line in the book where there isn't something else going on. Why would he suddenly be so sincere in acknowledging Ron Weasley's question, especially since in that scene he is already engaged in angling for Harry's and Neville's reactions. If he isn't referring to Imperio'ed!Arthur, what is he talking about? You're telling me Barty thought it was important to bring up the fact Arthur was once authorized to utilize Imperius... Why?" "I'll get back to you on that one," says Cindy. "Which leads us to a problem with Operative!Arthur." "There's nothing wrong with Operative!Arthur," says Cindy. "Oh, yes there is. Under your intrepretation of the Unforgivable Curses scene, Operative!Arthur is dead in the water! First of all, why does an ex-auror know about Arthur's Operative status? It says in "FBAWTFT," that all Departments are answerable to Magical Law Enforcement, except perhaps the Department of Mysteries, fwiw. I just don't see the point of letting the aurors scrutinize the operatives." "Well, maybe Moody and Arthur were members of the Order of the Phoenix or something together," mumbles Cindy. "That's only the beginning of your problems. Why does Barty Crouch Jr. know about Arthur's Operative status?" "From his father?" asks Cindy hopefully. "Let's add on another heaping helping of "Why does Law Enforcement have its nose in Mysteries?" then, and remark that now Voldemort knows Arthur Weasley is/was an operative." "He could," said Cindy stubbornly. "Which makes Arthur a terrible choice for the kinds of jobs you want to give him," says Eileen. "Ummmm..." "We haven't even come to my most potent objection," said Eileen. "Why would Crouch Jr., who was masquerading as Moody, have shown off that he knew that Arthur Weasley was an operative, and was hinting so to the students." "Run that by me again?" "Crouch Jr. would have blown his cover big-time if it got out that Moody was exposing Ministry operatives to a bunch of 14 year old students. Twisted he was, but stupid he was not." "Well..." says Cindy huffily. "You know why I'm telling you all these things?" says Eileen. "Because I rather like Operative!Arthur." "You do!" cries Cindy, all resentment fading from her eyes. "Yes, it's got Bang. Definite Bang. Both past, present, and future. But I'm not going to take an Operative!Arthur that Crouch Jr. feels comfortable chatting to the class about." Abigal clears her throat. "Have you considered Auror!Arthur?" "I'm sick of aurors," says Eileen flatly. "Moody and Longbottom are enough for me. I expect them to keep me interested all through the next three books. Arthur Weasley as an auror is redundant, since Moody and Longbottom can nicely cover the auror sub-plot by themselves. No, what I want to find out about is the Department of Mysteries." "Oh that... We know nothing about Unspeakables except that they work for the Department of Mysteries, which tells us absolutely nothing. By your own standards, Cindy, they belong on the GARBAGESCOW," says Abigail evenly. Cindy tipped backward in her chair, catching herself before she toppled over. She pressed her hands to her cheeks, her eyes widened with shock. "Unspeakables belong *on the SCOW!* WHAT?!? Hold on just a minute there! Unspeakables are with the Department of Mysteries, right?" "Right." "Well, who else do we know from the Department of Mysteries? *ROOKWOOD,* that's who! ROOKWOOD, from the Pensieve! Rookwood, who is so Big that he is the only piece of information that is important enough to spring Karkaroff. The very mention of Rookwood's name draws *murmers* from the crowd. And there is no more significant red flag to signify Banginess than when a crowd *murmers.* Oh, Unspeakables from the Department of Mysteries Bang even when they're trying blend in. *No way* are Unspeakables SCOW-worthy." "I totally agree," says Eileen. "Doesn't the name "Augustus Rookwood" just send a shiver down your spine?" "You too?" says Cindy. "Oh, no doubt about it. Augustus Rookwood is exciting. He's not like the other Death Eaters. He's got that Death Eater feeling, but he's also got that Ministry feeling. A deadly combination. I think he was a Ravenclaw myself." Cindy smiles and shows off her tatoo "Rookwood + Moody 4 Eva!" "Cindy, that's disturbing," says Eileen. "Not just b/c it posits Evil!Moody (which I don't really care for), but b/c the first time I read about the tatoo I didn't remember your theory and I thought you were slashing Rookwood and Moody." A gleam appears in Cindy's eyes. "Rookwood and Moody! Why that would be even better than Ludo Bagman and Arthur Weasley! Pity that contest's over." "You are disturbed! Moody belongs with Hermione." "Right," says Cindy, a little disappointed. "So, what about Rookwood the dead sexy Ravenclaw?" "Yellow Flag!" scream Veronica and Abigail together. "You're just making up stuff about Rookwood. Where does canon say he was dead sexy?" asks Veronica. "Or a Ravenclaw?" asks Abigail. "Nowhere," says Eileen, hanging her head low. "But I'm sure I didn't make it up. There was something in the text that lead me to that conclusion. That he was a Ravenclaw I mean." "Rooks and Ravens are members of the Crow family (Corvidae)," says Cindy. "Yes, that explains it. My subconscious mind must have picked up on that. I think that's admittable canon for "Rookwood was a Ravenclaw." Anyway, back to Imperius wielding Arthur. I think I've shown why Crouch Jr. cannot be referring to Arthur using Imperius." "Yes, you do think that," says Cindy. "For quite good reasons," said Veronica cheerfully. "Besides, I just can't believe that Crouch, Sr. would be nutty enough to allow just *anyone* at the MoM to perform the unforgivable curses. I always assumed it was just the Aurors or folks in Enforcement who were actively hunting Death Eaters. Can you imagine if suddenly everyone who worked there was allowed to enslave others with Imperius, torture them with Crusiatus, or even kill them cold-bloodedly with AK?" "They'd be offing each other for their tennis tables!" cries Eileen with vigour. "You are so right, Captain! You always are!" "Well, thankyou, Eileen," says Veronica. "Would you like a position on the catamaran?" "Absolutely! I'll be Captain of the Marines. Not like US Marines. Like in A&E's Horatio Hornblower, with the red coats and all!" "Ummm.... ok," says Veronica, remembering Elkins's direction to be inclusive. "Seriously, we need Napoleonic War British marines to defend us from our attackers. They're swarming over the railings!" "I am not swarming," says Cindy with dignity. "And of course Crouch Sr. wouldn't be that nutty. Just like Cindy to imply Crouch Sr. was being nutty." "Allowing Unspeakables the power to use the Unforgivable curses is not nutty!" cries Cindy. "Maybe not all Ministry workers had the power to use them, but why couldn't the Unspeakables?" "Err..." begins Eileen. "But canon..." "Canon has nothing to say about whether the Unspeakables used the Unforgivables, b/c the Unspeakables are top secret." "I suppose so," says Eileen with a frown. "So there you are. Case closed," says Cindy. "Which case? What were we talking about?" "Whether Operative!Arthur could use Imperius." "Well, as for that. Canon has no answer, since we don't know the first thing about operatives," says Eileen. "There's Bode and Croaker," says Abigail. "And they're not even under-cover." "Well," says Cindy. "I think Bode and Croaker are Unspeakables who simply work in that department. Operative! Arthur, on the other hand, is an Unspeakable who lives a life in deep cover and keeps his real and very dangerous and important missions a secret." "I'm not sure there's any way to argue with that one," says Eileen. "Lack of evidence is evidence." "Isn't that nifty?" asks Cindy delightedly. "But, of course, the only reason that works is that there's evidence for Arthur being an Operative in the text." "Yes, I agree there is," says Eileen. "You've done a splendid job of presenting what's fishy about Arthur Weasley's position. But, while I like it, I'm not entirely convinced. I can't help but notice that in the end, every single point comes back to..." "Comes back to where?" "A place we do not want to go," says Eileen. "I'm telling you, Cindy, the moment you go there, you get people screaming and howling, and throwing fits and... terrible things, Cindy, terrible things." "Well, that should be right up our alley," says Cindy, fingering her FEATHERBOA and looking out to the BIG BANG Battleship. "Cindy," Eileen whispers. "We're approaching a faultline." Cindy's face goes white. "Are you sure?" "Yes. If you want to go ahead, make sure you're holding on hard to the railings, or you might end up pitching into the sea headfirst." "The wizarding world is represented as one where everyone knows each other," begins Eileen. With her words, everything begins to shake violently. "Why is it doing that?" asks Cindy, holding on for dear life. "Oh, we're dealing with Class Issues in HP. I'm quoting myself. I went on to say that that's not true. That only members of the elite know each other. People didn't like that much." "Elkins liked it," said Cindy. "Yes. I'm eternally grateful to her for resurrecting my concerns and arguing them out for several posts, while I was away on vacation. Anyway, if we're right about the Potterverse elite, Operative!Arthur might not be the way to go after all." "How do you see that?" "Let's quote Elkins. "Lower eschelon Ministry workers are a part of the magic circle. Even clerks may well be included." The Ministry is as much an Old Boys network as anything else. Remember Rookwood and Bagman?" "Do I ever!" cries Cindy. "Well, these are the elite of wizarding society, if our theory is right. They know each other, listen to each other, even if one is the Head of Muggle Artefacts, not something a tad more exciting. I always got the feeling that the Ministry, despite its divisions, isn't as exactly segmented as modern government. Remember what Andrei Bolkonsky thought in "War and Peace?" "No," says Cindy wearily. "Why are we discussing Russian literature again?" "IIRC, he realizes that there are two systems at work in the Russian army. The formal ranks and the aristocracy. That officer might be your superior, but you are his better and can keep him waiting. Andrei, being an aristocrat, decides he likes the second system better... I think we have an elite here acting like elites do." "Which is how?" "When something goes wrong with the Ministry, members of the elite, despite their Department, feel compelled to sort out the mess, and are expected to help sort out the mess. When a prisoner escapes, Fudge naturally discusses it over with them, because they expect to discuss it with him. They all know each other very well." "Well...." "Of course, that doesn't stop Arthur from being an Operative! I like Arthur as an operative. It's really quite neat. I still haven't sorted out what exactly he does, or what periods he did/does/will do it in, but it's very BANGY, as I said before, and justified by canon. However, feel that the evidence Operative!Arthur seeks to explain can also be explained by a wizarding elite, something I believe is fairly explicit in the text." "You could be drawn and quartered for saying that," says Cindy. "I know. That's why I insisted on being a Marine. The red coat comes with a bayonet. I may need it, once people catch wind of what I've said." Veronica looks at Eileen with mild concern. "We are pretty inclusive here," she says. "But if it's going to be gory, would you mind stepping off the ship?" Abigail sighs. "This is exhausting. And you haven't even adressed Auror!Arthur." "I'm sorry, Abigail, but I agree with everything Cindy said about Auror!Arthur. But we can agree happily together about Imperio'ed Arthur. That is, if you don't completely run off with Cindy, asserting Arthur wasn't under Imperius. And you shouldn't. She's fickle, she is. One moment, you're back to back and the next she's gone. She used to defend Crouch Sr. to the list, you know, before I got into the habit of doing that. And Cindy's right about the TBAY posts. They're addictive, unbelievably addictive. Do you think that I sat down planning to write a TBAY post about Arthur Weasley? No. I had planned a quite simple essay-like examination of these theories. But could I do it? No." At that moment, the four women hear footsteps coming towards them. Elkins emerged, looking much better than when Veronica found her. However, she's talking to herself. "Hey, Veronica's even letting the Operative!Arthur people have berths, even though they spend half of their time picking on the Auror!Arthur brigade and the other half trying to scuttle the trimaran altogether. She's a regular old Dumbledore, is Captain Veronica. So I'd say that there's sure to be plenty of room on that ship for Seventh Son adherents." "I just don't know about this "Arthur Weasley *used* the Imperius Curse" spec that Eloise has been handsawing out there, though. I think that one just might qualify as a mutiny," says Elkins. Eileen nods vigorously. ------------------------------------ For further explanation of the acronyms and theories in this post, visit Hypothetic Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hypotheticalley.htm and Inish Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=13 From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Oct 17 20:11:37 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:11:37 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Second Daugther Theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4974301325.20021017131137@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45484 This is certainly an interesting theory. May I augment it slightly? Your idea of Mr. and Mrs. Weasley continuing to have children until they have a girl reminds me a bit of _Pride and Prejudice_... In which, The Bennett family's estate, Longbourn, is "entailed in default of heirs male on a distant relation". In other words, some male-chauvanist ancestor of Mr. Bennett stipulated in his will that inhertitence of Longbourn estate could only pass through *male* heirs, and the Bennetts, despite their best and most valient efforts (especially considering that there's no real sexual passion between them), have all female children. So therefore the estate on Mr. B.'s decease will go to their nearest male relative, his distant cousin, Mr. Collins, and the surviving family will be left out in the cold, unless the two oldest and most sensible of the daughters are so fortunate as to fall in love and marry rich men, which is what in fact happens. :) So suppose the Weasley's are involved in a gender-reversed, WW equivalent of an entail, and that they will lose the Burrow unless they can produce a *female* heir. The first was this "Missing Weasley", whom I shall christen Ceres Weasley ( see below for the reason :) )... They lose Ceres by whatever means, and they continue to have kids until Ginny, the current heir of the Burrow. But I think Ceres is still alive and will resurface... I'm imagining that she's falsely imprisoned in Azkaban, like Sirius. Okay, the reason for "Ceres" is because the "Missing Weasley" theory can't but remind me of the famous "Missing Planet" in the gap between Mars and Jupiter that astronomers searched for for so long and finally declared found with the discoverey, on the very first day of the 19th century, of Ceres, the largest and first-known of the "minor" planets. (This name is also in keeping with JKR's love of mythological references, as Ceres is the Roman goddess of agriculture. -- Future mate for Neville?? :) ) Comments? -- Dave From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Oct 17 20:14:23 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:14:23 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What happened while Harry was gone? (was: Task 3 point of view) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6674466738.20021017131423@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45485 Thursday, October 17, 2002, 6:54:51 AM, dowen331 wrote: d> I have even wondered if there was some sort of time glitch (a la d> Narnia) where the whole graveyard scene (which must have lasted about d> an hour) was just a blip in Hogwarts time. That doesn't seem likely, d> though, since the graveyard and Hogwarts aren't in two different d> worlds. But maybe Crouch rigged the Cup to be a *Time Turner* as well as a Portkey?! -- Dave From sally.lasko at colorado.edu Thu Oct 17 20:10:58 2002 From: sally.lasko at colorado.edu (swimsalone) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:10:58 -0000 Subject: TBAY(slightly referenced) - Why we care (Re: Hogwarts Student Population) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45487 Since this debate has been going on for quite a while and I have only been visiting the site for a few months, excuse this observation if it has been stated previously. The idea that a British boarding school is relatively classist (meaning some monetary and/or social backing is required for acceptance) should be a foregone conclusion. One does not simply elbow one's way into a private institution requireing tuition for attendance. Even in the States, if one intends their child to attend Exeter or even a non-boarding private high school they must put their child's name down on a list of students under consideration and provide the funds for tuition. Clearly, academic and merit scholarships are available...but this does not waive the screening or application process in the least, particularly for prestigeous boarding schools. While Hogwarts clearly conforms to the British education model, the fact that the piteously poor Weasleys can afford to send 5 of their children through concurrently seems to indicate that the cost is definitely not prohibitive of including the working classes. In fact, by strict definition, the Weasleys fall under the rubric of "working class" since they obviously have no savings (as evidenced by their sadly empty Gringott's vault) and are living paycheck to paycheck. One's status in the ministry is of little importance when Mr. Weasley clearly has little social power or respect among the rich and influential within the ministry. I woud argue that of course a Boarding school is somewhat elitist, but the presence of the Weasleys seems to indicate that this elitist element is extremely unimportant (except to Ron who feels quite put-upon to be poor in a school packed with privileged children) in the long run. I believe the discussion is really taking issue with a system of education that is rather elitist, of which Hogwarts happens to be a part, rather than Hogwarts as an autonomous entity. Even the Dursleys were planning to send Harry to the public non-boarding high school to save the cost of tuition while Dudly was off to Smeltings. Under this system it is far more likely for those with less social standing or financial resources to send their children to public schools rather than prestigeous boarding schools. One cannot view Hogwarts independently from the long-established system of education in which it is mired. It's just not logical. --Sally From wynnde1 at aol.com Thu Oct 17 20:34:27 2002 From: wynnde1 at aol.com (wynnde1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:34:27 EDT Subject: Second Daughter Theory Message-ID: <1ad.a7495ff.2ae078d3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45488 Regarding the name of the missing Weasley daughter, DaveH47 at mindspring.com writes: > Okay, the reason for "Ceres" is because the "Missing Weasley" theory > can't but remind me of the famous "Missing Planet" in the gap between > Mars and Jupiter that astronomers searched for for so long and finally > declared found with the discoverey, on the very first day of the 19th > century, of Ceres, the largest and first-known of the "minor" planets. > (This name is also in keeping with JKR's love of mythological references, > as Ceres is the Roman goddess of agriculture. -- Future mate for Neville?? > :) ) > > This is great . . . HOWEVER, what if she was called Demeter instead (same goddess, just the Greek version)? Then, she would fit in with that lovely alphabetical Weasley naming scheme, as well! Right between Charlie and Percy, erm . . . Edward, or Eggbert or whatever his REAL name is meant to be! :-) Wynnde S. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jadethe2nd at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 20:45:05 2002 From: jadethe2nd at yahoo.com (Jade) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cho the Lestrange's daughter? In-Reply-To: <1034884224.3423.29916.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021017204505.51859.qmail@web21401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45489 The Lestranges are described in great detail, true, but, as is being discussed in another thread at the moment, Cho isn't. There is no indication that she is asian apart from her name. Therefore Cho could indeed be the Lestranges daughter. After her parents imprisonment (she would only have been a toddler at the time) she was adopted and her name changed by her new (in all likelyhood asian) parents. This is possible because: A. It's certainly not unheard of for adoptive parents to change their new children's first names, and perhaps an asian family would want their child to have a name that fit in with the rest of them B. Who would want their child to be associated with two known Death Eaters? Better to change her name and make sure she could lead a normal life, untainted by her parents crimes. This would also tie in nicely with the free choice theme. Cho's parents were evil Death Eaters, but she seems to be a nice girl from what little we've seen of her. And just think of Harry's reaction when he found out... It may not be likely that Cho is the Lestranges' daughter, but I do think it may be possible... Jade, newbie, 17 years old and tired of all the other people her age arguing about who should end up with who and never talking about anything else. I mean, it's OBVIOUSLY Draco and Hermione ;) > > The Lestrange aren't chinese. they are described in > detail in > Crouch's trial. I doubt it would be Cho. > > "atrocity.geo" > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "wpfositpoi" > wrote: > > Does anyone think that the Lestranges had a child > and that > child is > > now at Hogwarts? I'm guessing the Lestranges will > be busted > out of > > Azkaban soon so we'll be learning more about them. > Would > their child > > be good or evil? Would they know of their past? > > > > What if it was Cho? Wouldn't than be interesting? > > > > "wpfositpoi" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Oct 17 21:14:52 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:14:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] TBAY: Weasley Predisposition To Imperius? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45490 Elkins: > I just don't know about this "Arthur Weasley *used* the Imperius > Curse" spec that Eloise has been handsawing out there, though. I > think that one just might qualify as a mutiny. > If I were a crew member on that particular ship, it would indeed qualify as mutiny...but since I'm not....... Why does this always happen to me? I remember Cindy crying mutiny at me once when I was only *visiting* the Big Bang, for goodness sake. No, I'm pretty agnostic on Arthur with Imperius theories, truth be told. I *do* think it highly likely that there is something there, that a Weasley has been involved with the Imperius Curse. In fact, you might remember that in my Parallel Universe Fourth Man theory (which allowed me simultaneously both to be and not be a crew member of the Fourth Man Hovercraft), I attempted to unite Seventh Son with Fourth Man with Weasley with Imperius in one glorious, all embracing theory. (Was the Fourth Man the 'missing' Weasley who had been serving Voldemort under Imperius?) I don't think I went quite as far as uniting it with Dicey's 'Rita Skeeter is Fourth Man in drag' theory........but give me time. But Cindy provided an alternative view and there was this canon lying around and so in the interests of academic rigour, I felt duty bound to bring it to her attention. That and the fact that I generally like to keep on good terms with the various captains round the Bay. Especially ones with Big Paddles. ;-) This ties in rather with something I've been musing about in relation to MAGIC DISHWASHER. The biggest problem I have with MD is that it is, as has been mentioned, somewhat of an act of faith. It may be perfectly correct. OTOH it seems to me that there are so many legitimate ways of interpreting a piece of literature that I don't want to invest all my energies in just one of these, particularly when the canon is unfinished. When it comes to theories, I'd rather juggle different possible methods of interpretation, keeping my mind open (or sitting on the fence.... decisiveness was never one of my faults. ;-) ) That's one of the reasons I can't get into SHIPping. I may adopt some theories as working hypotheses, or go along with a theory for the academic fun of developing an argument, but in the end a theory is only a theory and may be proved or disproved. So with Arthur and the Imperius, it seems to me that there *is* something up, but I'd rather look at all the evidence and the different ways it can be worked than commit myself to crewing on one particular vessel. However....I've never been referred to as a 'secret weapon' before, nor have I ever been a punch-line before, so if I'm being strictly mercenary, I think Cindy's got the edge there! Although, of course, I'm always open to higher offers. ;-) Eloise Ever-So-Pleased with her new 'Secret Weapon' badge. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Oct 17 21:25:41 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 14:25:41 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Second Daughter Theory In-Reply-To: <1ad.a7495ff.2ae078d3@aol.com> References: <1ad.a7495ff.2ae078d3@aol.com> Message-ID: <578746228.20021017142541@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45491 Thursday, October 17, 2002, 1:34:27 PM, wynnde1 at aol.com wrote: wac> This is great . . . HOWEVER, what if she was called Demeter instead (same wac> goddess, just the Greek version)? Then, she would fit in with that lovely wac> alphabetical Weasley naming scheme, as well! Right between Charlie and Percy, wac> erm . . . Edward, or Eggbert or whatever his REAL name is meant to be! Ooooo! Good point! But if the alphabetical thing is valid, why does it break down with Ron and Ginny? -- Dave From the.gremlin at verizon.net Thu Oct 17 21:21:02 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 21:21:02 -0000 Subject: Snape's knowledge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45492 anakinbester wrote: First of all, I think that Snape was a high-ranking DE. Second of all, in GoF, V-Mort and Crouch Jr. refer to Peter as 'Wormtail'. I think that, as a DE and a spy, Peter went by 'Wormtail'. In Azkaban, the DEs would be raving about Wormtail, and Sirius would know that was Peter. I also don't think that Snape know MWPP's nicknames for each other, or didn't know who was who. He either could have though Wormtail was Siris, or have just simply not known who Wormtail was. "...Snape did know. In fact, Voldemrot could have told Snape about Peter as some form of test. If Peter is found out, the Voldemort has caught his spy." Well, if Snape knew, but didn't tell anyone as to not get caught, after V-Mort turned into Vapour-Mort, wouldn't he be free to tell anyone that Wormtail was, in fact the spy? Besides, if Snape had gone to DD, DD would probably think of some clever way to arrest Peter without getting his own spy in trouble-or killed. "Then you wonder why wouldn't Snape testify for Sirius." No one could testify for Siruis. He didn't have a trial. And during that time, Snape wasn't exactly in the best of positions, being an ex-DE and all. That, and looking at the history of these two, Snape probably wouldn't have wanted to testify for Sirius. "I suspect what ever punishment Sirius got for the werewolf prank did not satisfy Snape, and seeing Sirius in Azkaban could be some form of revenge." Snape hated Sirius so much that he just figured Sirius was the dark wizard, and when evidence started rolling in (the Potter's, their close friend being a spy, etc.), he had more reason to think that. Like you said, he's already conviced that Sirius is capable of murder, so this would just be like a "Hah! I was right!" for him. "But I think even the stoutest Snape lover has to admit the man has a petty streak." All right, all right, he's petty! I admit it, okay? Sorry this is long--I shortened it as much as I could. -Acire, who is celebrating being off moderated status. From lee.farley at ntlworld.com Thu Oct 17 21:30:54 2002 From: lee.farley at ntlworld.com (Lee) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 22:30:54 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Second Daughter Theory In-Reply-To: <578746228.20021017142541@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <001201c27624$7a49c3b0$4fec6bd5@quack> No: HPFGUIDX 45493 > Thursday, October 17, 2002, 1:34:27 PM, wynnde1 at aol.com wrote: > > wac> This is great . . . HOWEVER, what if she was called > Demeter instead > wac> (same > wac> goddess, just the Greek version)? Then, she would fit in > with that lovely > wac> alphabetical Weasley naming scheme, as well! Right > between Charlie and Percy, > wac> erm . . . Edward, or Eggbert or whatever his REAL name > is meant to be! > > Ooooo! Good point! But if the alphabetical thing is valid, > why does it break down with Ron and Ginny? > > -- > Dave Maybe the Weasleys had a whole slew of miscarried/aborted/killed/adopted/kidnapped children during the space between George and Ron? And then a whole lot more between Ron and Ginny (so manny that they either had to restart the alphabet) Hey... It could happen! I think the alphabetic naming thing is all a big fat red herring anyway, and the almost-legendary missing Weasley will turn out to be someone we find out about, but dismiss because of their name. -LD --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.401 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 09/10/2002 From m.bockermann at t-online.de Fri Oct 18 00:29:19 2002 From: m.bockermann at t-online.de (m.bockermann at t-online.de) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:29:19 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Operative!Arthur Attacks Auror!Arthur References: <1034818018.9047.20136.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002901c2763d$69e9ae40$4a729fc1@computer> No: HPFGUIDX 45494 Ethanol slowly crept up the gangway as the gangway of the Imerpius! Arthur Trimaran gets severly rocked by a mutiny by the Unspeakable!Arthur quarters. She considered turning back. After all, she is not a frequent visitor to the HPlist ocean and has never ventured to the shores of TBAY. Will she be allowed to enter? But then she saw Veronica standing on the deck, yelling at an innocent steward and decides to add her madness (as Cindy would likely call it) to the mix. As she drew closer she sees Veronica staring out to the waters, murmering again and again: "Not necessary. Imperius!Arthur not necessary!" Ethanol gently placed a hand on Veronica's shoulder and said: "Don't worry Veronica. That is not true. Imperius!Arthur is very important to Auror!Arthur." "Yes?" asked Veronica, sudden hope in her voice. "Yes," said Ethanol. "See, the basic problem of both Unspeakable!Arthur and Auror!Arthur is: why does nobody, or knows no one or at least none of the younger Weasleys about Arthur's secret life? Well, there are two compelling reasons why somebody keeps silent about his past: shame and guilt. You can have both with Imperius!Arthur theory: shame for being "weak" enough to be placed under the Imperius curse, guilt for whatever he did while he was under it." A light lit up in Veronica's eyes, but she stilled remained dubious. "But what if they are right? Unspeakable!Arthur *could* work without Imperius!Arthur. If Arthur was a kind of secret agent, he would keep silent about it? His kids would delight in his work during Voldemort's reign and take pride in him instead of seeing him as the loser-job kind of father." "No!" Veronica shook her head, looking sad again. "Cindy claims that Arthur is still undercover. That's why he doesn't talk to his kids about it." But Ethanol gave her an encouraging smile. "Under Fudge's reign? Are you serious? This man is confronted with Harry's eye witness account and the body of AKed Cedric and he doesn't believe that Voldemort is back. After the Dark Lord's fall, most people believed everything was right again and celebrated. Sure, people like Dumbledore, McGonagall and Hagrid believed he would be back. But at the MoM the policy was: the dark is over, let's look ahead. So why would they plant a secret operative in the Mom? To battle the take over plans of the house elves?" Veronica thought about that for a moment. "There is no reason for an undercover agent in the department of Muggle affairs," she finally conceded. "Does that wreck Unspeakbable!Arthur?" Ethanol shook her head. "Not necessarily. He could have ladden shame and guilt on him as Unspeakable!Arthur just as much as with Auror!Arthur." "With Imperius!Arthur?" "With Imperius!Arthur. Imperius!Arthur offers you shame and guilt for what Arthur did - or maybe failed to do - and explain Arthur's (and Molly's and the older children's) silence. Also Imperius!Arthur makes Unspeakable!Arthur or Auror!Arthur more likely: if Arthur was deemed important enough be be imperioed, then he probably was a bigger fish than the operative of a tiny, rather unimportant department." "Why are you so intend on that guilt and shame thing?" Veronica asked, sudden suspicion in her voice. Ethanol sat down on the deck and, after a moment, Veronica joined her. "If you accept Imperius!Arthur - and I expect you do because you are the captain of that boat - you have to answer a question: what did Arthus do, while he was under the Imperius curse." Veronica flinched. That Ethanol assumed, was the question she had avoided for long. "Maybe he spied for Voldemort," she suggested hesitantly. Ethanol noded. "Possible. But not very bangy, don't you think? A lot of people spied for him. What would be different if Arthur was just one more?" "You've something more bangy?" "Possibly. See, I must make a confession. I'm an ambassador from Elkins." For a moment Veronica appeared confused. Then she asked: "Imperius!Arthur, Unwilling Filicide?" Ethanol nodded again. "Yep. I suggest that Auror!Arthur was imperioed, causing directly or (more likely) indirectly Missing Weasley child's death. That would be more guilt and shame than anyone can ask for. And more than enough reason why Auror!Arthur would keep silent about his past. People usually assume that Arthur retired from Auror!Arthur or Unspeakable!Arthur. I would suggest that he was punished by being transferred to Muggle Artifacts, a very unpopular department as far as we can tell (just look at Lucius' comments in CS or Fudge's accusation of missing wizard pride). Or, if you want: not punished but his weakness for the Imperius curse just makes him fallible to his job. In any case, it explains why be is so poorly paid. Arthur is happy in Muggle Artifacts, but he wouldn't talk about his earlier career that failed because of his fatal weakness for the Imperius curse. Fatal for the Missing Weasley child." Veronica remained silent for a while, clearly thinking. "I don't know. It doesn't sound bad. But Missing Weasley child never really convinced me so much. All this alphabet order or gap between births doesn't convince me." "You forget Arthur's reaction at the end of the Dark mark chapter in GoF. Or Molly's fright in the following chapter. And there is the darkening of Ron's face in PS..." "The what?" "in the Hogwart's Express Ron corrects Harry when the later is astonished about how many brothers Ron had visited Hogwarts. Usually interpreted as Ron's dismay at having to prove himself against so many brother's but IMHO opinion the first sighting of Missing Weasley child. By the way: if there is one, Malfoy's remark in PS about "too many children" would be terribly cruel. Suits him." Veronica lifted her hand to stop the flood. "That's a bit much for me, I'm afraid. I still have to munch about those guilt and shame consequences of Imperius!Arthur." "All right," Ethanol sighed. "I'll be there when you want to talk about it. But in the meantime - could I have a cabin, please?" But Veronica had this far away glance again and didn't answer. From millergal8 at aol.com Thu Oct 17 22:55:59 2002 From: millergal8 at aol.com (millergal8 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:55:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Second Daughter Theory Message-ID: <1c7.3f1170.2ae099ff@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45495 In a message dated 10/17/02 2:20:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, DaveH47 at mindspring.com writes: << Ooooo! Good point! But if the alphabetical thing is valid, why does it break down with Ron and Ginny? >> Okay, I need some backup here, but I was under the impression that Ginny's real name is Virginia. I don't remember if this was stated in canon or it was a theory tossed out there. Anybody find this theory familiar? Christy From skelkins at attbi.com Thu Oct 17 23:05:55 2002 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 23:05:55 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew: Snape Through the Looking Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45496 Becky wrote: > I can see the desire to have a "good guy" in Slytherin (and not > an "apparently good guy" like Snape), but the we miss out on > Gryffindor!Peter going evil. Indeed we do. We also miss out on the perfectly lovely Snape/Pettigrew parallels which the text of PoA and especially of GoF keep drawing for the reader. Way back in my very first post, I annoyed a good number of Snapefans by tossing out the statement that "Severus Snape is Peter Pettigrew through the looking glass." A lot of people really didn't like that statement very much, and so I defended it -- so very skillfully, in fact, that all dissent was quelled. No one DARED argue! Ha HA! Or, um, so I thought. Recently, however, it has been brought to my attention that, er, well, that the post in which I defended that statement actually, er, never even saw the light of day. It never actually appeared on the list at all, in fact. It vanished utterly without trace. Which might explain why no one ever argued the point with me. Oh. Yes, well. So. Now that I am handed this opportunity, allow me to reiterate my claim that Peter Pettigrew serves as a literary double to Severus Snape. Peter Pettigrew is a fallen Gryffindor. Severus Snape is a fallen Slytherin. The two characters are "mirror images" to each other: they exhibit both symmetry and reversal. The mirror reflects, but it also reverses. The mirror always reverses that which it reflects. The symmetries are obvious enough, I think. Both men are traitors. Both men acted as moles during the war. More specifically, both betrayed their old circle of school friends by passing on information to the enemy, information which eventually led to some of their friends' violent deaths. In both cases, this old circle of school friends included people who were killed in the last year of the war (the Potters, Rosier, Wilkes), those who were sent to Azkaban but who have either already escaped or who seem likely to be liberated in the near future (Black, the Lestranges), and those who may have escaped death or imprisonment, but who nonetheless seem to have suffered profound psychological damage as they have not achieved much of anything with their lives in the years since the war (Lupin, Avery). Both circles also included a married couple (Lestranges, Potters), including a woman who was both the token female member of the group and unusually talented and/or formidable. There are indications that both of these two characters were always in some sense on the fringes of their respective groups, accepted but not fully invested, somehow neither in nor out. In making the decision to turn on their companions, both men effectively sealed their fates for the rest of their lives up to the start of canon. At the series' opening, both men are in some sense trapped. Neither seems to have gained very much of anything in the way of contentment or happiness or personal satisfaction out of life. Both have been effectively enslaved by their past decisions. Both men respond with more emotion and indignation to accusations of disloyalty than to any other type of slur. Both seem to be struggling with deep-seated feelings of guilt and shame. Both have incurred a life-debt to a Potter after being protected from Black and Lupin in or near the Shrieking Shack. In both cases, this debt is given pride of place in one of the "closing Dumbledorian arguments," the scenes at the end of each novel in which Dumbledore explains or pontificates upon the plot for Harry's benefit. Both men seem somewhat fixated on Harry's resemblance to his father. Both of them try to influence his behavior by giving their own interpretations of what James was like, how he behaved, or what he would do. Both characters have a "neither fish nor fowl" quality. They are both painted in shades of moral grey. So for the symmetry. As for the reversals, the "mirrored" traits: - Snape is the redeemed representative of what is generally held to be a corrupted House. - Pettigrew is the corrupted representative of what is generally held to be a virtuous House. - Snape betrayed his friends. By doing so he was acting in accordance with his principles, but much against his instincts. - Pettigrew betrayed his friends. By doing so he was acting in accordance with his instincts, but much against his principles. - Snape owes a self-imposed "life-debt" to Harry Potter; he struggles to fulfill it even though it would seem to be purely a bond of personal honor. - Pettigrew owes a genuine life-debt to Harry Potter; he struggles to ignore it even though it would seem to be a bond of ancient magic. - Snape is imprisoned by his desire for atonement - Pettigrew is imprisoned by his fear of atonement - Snape places his Slytherin talents -- cunning, shrewdness, the capacity for deceit -- at the service of Gryffindor Dumbledore - Pettigrew places his Gryffindor talents -- pluck, nerve, daring, decisive action (think Bertha Jorkins) and raw physical courage -- at the service of Slytherin Voldemort - Snape willingly serves Dumbledore and his cause -- even though his temperament militates against it. - Pettigrew willingly serves Voldemort and his cause -- even though his temperament militates against it. Was Pettigrew a member of House Gryffindor? Yes. Yes, I insist that he was. And Snape was a proud member of House Slytherin. Elkins From alina at distantplace.net Thu Oct 17 23:08:42 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 19:08:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Second Daughter Theory/Ginny's name References: <1c7.3f1170.2ae099ff@aol.com> Message-ID: <006a01c27632$2397f9c0$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45497 > Okay, I need some backup here, but I was under the impression that Ginny's > real name is Virginia. I don't remember if this was stated in canon or it > was a theory tossed out there. Anybody find this theory familiar? > Christy Neither the books, nor the movie, nor any interviews that I've seen list Ginny's full name. Virginia is simply the most common guess. For all we know it's Regina, or Genevieve or JKR knows what. Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 02/08/2002 From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Oct 17 23:09:43 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 23:09:43 -0000 Subject: TBAY: KITCHEN SINK, now with acronym Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45498 BlueSqueak and Grey Wolf look out the window of the Safe House, where they have been joined by Melody, who is polishing up the Magic Dishwasher. GreyWolf has just been archiving the latest posts in the DISHWASHER controversy. They see Pippin trundling up the beach with a whacking great can(n)on. "Surrender!" she calls through the window, "I am about to blow this eyesore of a theory off the shores of the Bay and tote the ruins off to the GARBAGE SCOW where they belong. Leave, while you still can!" GreyWolf ignores her and continues reading over his previous remarks (way back in message 45318) " Dumbledore will not respect his enemies's rights, since that sort of action tends to lose wars (and I supose now you'll tell me that Dumbledore is Evil because he doesn't give Voldemort's right to freedom)." The Pipsqueak agrees. "Yes, that's one of the basic assumptions of Spygames: An awareness that some (ideally the minimum necessary) bad means may have to be used to attain good ends." (post 39662) "Oh, I see." says Pippin. "So Dumbledore must accept that there is no good and evil, only the power to defeat Voldemort and those too weak to use it?" "Let's say, " says GreyWolf, patiently " that Dumbledore hadn't prodded Voldemort into using the potion: 200 years from then, Voldemort finds another way of resurrecting (by rediscovering the PS, for example), makes a come back when no-one even remembers him anymore, and this time he is truly immortal. What would be the result? That you could say bye bye to the entire muggle population, and to anyone else who dared opose Immortal!Voldemort. Not a pleasing perspective." "Yes, but," says Pippin, "that's not how Dumbledore thinks. Dumbledore has a pre-modern consciousness. Part of that warrior ethos Elkins is always on about. We don't have a warrior ethos. Our Generals don't think that way. *They* know that chivalry is dead. It lies buried in Flanders fields amid the crosses row on row and all that. But it isn't dead for Dumbledore. He believes in gallant last stands, and that God or JKR or whatever will defend the right, and who knows what other pre-modern rot. Collective responsibility, for example. Shame as a positive social force. After all, he *is* a hundred and fifty years old. That ought to be enough grayness for anybody." "Meta-thinking!" snarls GreyWolf, for about the twentieth time. "Not this time," says Pippin, pointing proudly to her can(n)on. "We know that Dumbledore believes all this, I say, because he awards Neville 10 decisive Gryffindor points for his utterly doomed, futile, absurd, dare I say Quixotic attack on the Trio at the end of PS/SS" "If Dumbledore thought like Dishwasher!Dumbledore, it wouldn't have occurred to him to reward Neville for that. Because after all, Neville had no better odds against the Trio than the wizarding world would have against Lord Properly Re-embodied Voldemort. "And there was another way that Neville could have stopped the Trio. A way that wasn't hopeless at all. A way that would have worked, if he had used it. All he had to do was compromise his principles, to the ideal minimum necessary, as Pipqueak puts it. He wouldn't even have had to break any Hogwarts rules. In fact, plenty of people would have said he was doing the right thing. "Because all he had to do was snitch to Percy. (Although, if anyone had ever found out, Neville would have got his head transfigured into a toilet. I am sure Amos Diggory would gladly do the same to Dishwasher!Dumbledore, if he could. ) "Yet Dumbledore goes and rewards Neville for his utterly pointless and completely misguided gallantry in front of the whole school. He not only rewards him, he does it in a way that makes it clear he thinks it's the Gryffindor Edge to fight a hopeless battle just because you're too, well, noble, to do something that would have had a lot better chance of success." "Dishwasher!Dumbledore would never have thought to do that, not unless he is as dissociated as young Barty Crouch, or as big a hypocrite as Barty Sr. Dissociated people can't maintain honesty. Dumbledore's not dissociated. And he's no hypocrite either. No hypocrite could teach teenagers for 50 years and not be found out." As Pippin cranks her can(n)on into position, GrayWolf, Bluesqueak and Melody can see the writing on the side: K.I.T.C.H.E.N.S.I.N.K. -- Knighthood Is Triumphant, Chivalry Happily Endures, Neville Shows It's Not Kaput Pippin From rasjelle at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 21:49:39 2002 From: rasjelle at yahoo.com (rasjelle) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 21:49:39 -0000 Subject: Malfoy and others as Prefects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45499 Hi, just throwing in some thoughts: --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: > From what I've read, it looks as though 1-2 students are chosen from > each house to become a prefect. Now that Harry and company are > getting to be upper class, do you think that there's the possibility > of perhaps any of them becoming prefects? > > Gryffindor > Hermione Granger > or Neville Longbottom > If there's just one Gryffindor prefect, than I don't have much doubt that it will be Hermione. She does seem rather perfect for the job, doesn't she? However, if there are two... Fyre Wood said: > I don't see Harry becoming one because that would be too easy. He > can't kill Voldemort and also become a Prefect, a Quidditch star, etc > etc etc. > I think that together with Hermione, the two of them might be the perfect prefect team for Gryffindor (though I suppose Harry might prefer not to be one). In fact, I feel the one reason why Harry perhaps shouldn't be a prefect is because of the whole Voldemort business, because that is pressure enough. However, sure he can be both a Quidditch player and a prefect and have some extra-curricular occupations. James managed. Now, I have to admit, I have no experience with schoolsystems that have prefects or headboys/girls, and I don't know the importance of grades when it comes to being elected. As for Ron or Neville, I doubt either of them is way better in school than Harry, so if it comes to that, perhaps Seamus or Dean will prove themselves to be excellent students. I also wonder if it will be the Head of Houses that decide on who gets to be a prefect, or if the teachers decide together and if Dumbledore has anything to say about it (as he doesn't appear to spend much time with students himself). If it is just the head of house, than I don't doubt that Malfoy will be the Slytherin prefect. If however the other teachers or Dumbledore have a say... Surely one of them would understand that Draco's bigotted views and nasty dispostion to teachers like Hagrid are perhaps not the qualities the body of the junior students ought to be looking up to. The thing why Harry seems perfect as a Gryffindor prefect to me though, is that he has proven himself a great Gryffindor throughout his years at Hogwarts: Perhaps even the classic example of what a Gryffindor ought to be like. (Sure he breaks the rules occasionally and flies a car into a tree, but how many times of those do the teachers know about? Plus it's about the general way Harry comes across, and I feel his good qualities concerning this far outweigh his bad. Often Harry doesn't look for trouble, trouble finds him). The Sorting Hat: "...in Gryffindor Where dwell the brave at heart, Their daring, nerve and chivalry Set Gryffindors apart;" In his first year, Harry is awarded sixty points for "...pure nerve, and outstanding courage..." Also, Dumbledore seems "quite delighted" about the way Harry went about finding out about and interfering with the Stone." In his second year, Harry wins 200 points and receives an Award for Special Services to the School (as of course, does Ron), and he saves Ginny's life while defeating Riddle. He shows Dumbledore real loyalty (calling Fawkes to him) and pulls Godric's sword from the Sorting Hat, proving himself to be a true Gryffindor. Seems like perfect Gryffindor material to me. In his fourth year, Dumbledore tells him: "You have shown bravery beyond anything I could have expected of you tonight, Harry. You have shown bravery equal to those who died fighting Voldemort at the height of his powers. You have shoulderd a grown wizard's burden an dfound yourself equal to it." and again at the feast: "He showed, in every respect, the sort of bravery that few wizards have ever shown in facing Lord Voldemort...". Sounds like Dumbledore rather respects Harry's abilities, especially his bravery; and that's exactly what the Sorting Hat praises in Gryffindors. Harry looks to me like an excellent choice to represent Gryffindor House. Together with Hermione (as the brilliant, upstanding student who definitely has excellent Gryffindor qualities herself) they would be perfect to stand as examples for their fellow students. Hermione when it comes to schoolwork and Harry as it comes to conduct. > Fyre Wood said on Neville becoming a prefect: > This might be good for Neville, since perhaps all he needs is just a > little push to get him started. Wouldn't it be nice to finally see > him gain confidence. > Yes, it would. But I don't see many reasons why Neville would be a more obvious choice than any of the others. This is the boy who forgets the password all the time, and who doesn't seem to be a remarkable student (even if his herbology grade makes up for his abysmal potions one). But I suppose you are right, it might just be the push he needs (though he might as well be terrified too). But really, I like Neville just the way he is. As far as I can see; I've just been arguing to why I think Harry might be made a prefect. However, it could perfectly well be Ron or one of the other boys, or perhaps Harry doesn't want to be one, or perhaps there only is one prefect and it will naturally be Hermione... The only way to find out is to read OotP, which might take forever. Rasjelle Who has lurked for months but is a newbie poster, and who decided to stay away from all kitchen appliences until she's read the manuals good and proper. From sailor_moirae at hotmail.com Thu Oct 17 23:28:25 2002 From: sailor_moirae at hotmail.com (sailor_moirae) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 23:28:25 -0000 Subject: Missing Weasley Children - Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45500 > Athena: > >The strength to me is the large gap between Charlie and Percy and > > that the others go: > > > > A > > B > > C > > > > > > F > > G > > > > Making me think that there might just be a D and E to be inserted > in there. > > That's why I'm sticking with Percy as being a middle name. Hmm... I don't know if someone said this before but the two letters missing (DE) is an abbr. for Death Eater... Maybe two Weasleys were killed by a Death Eater of became one themselves. As well, where does Edward for Percy's real name come from? Or how to you figure Percy being his middle name? ~Moirae From Malady579 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 18 01:14:57 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 01:14:57 -0000 Subject: Ego-Maniacs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45501 Bugaloo37 wrote: >>>Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary gives the following definitions: 1) Egomaniac-one characterized by egomania; 2) Egomania- the quality or state of being extremely egocentric; 3)Egocentric- self-centered, selfish, limited in outlook or concern to one's own activities and needs. Nowhere in these definitions is lack of emotional control mentioned as a prerequesite for egomania. IMO, as I look back on definition number 3, I feel that Voldemort fits it to the letter.<<< Me: Well if you want to use that definition... ;) I agree. I just thought ego-maniacs also included the need to have temper-tantrums and throw things. Voldemort is most certainly only concerned with his own needs. The only time other's needs come into focus is when they are greatly needed on his behalf. I think that is why he humors Pettigrew and gives him the silver hand. If Voldemort did not think that Pettigrew's new silver hand would come in handy in his quest, then he would not of given it to Pettigrew. It is not like Voldie made it for Peter out of gratitude form resurrecting him. Now is there one other Potterland character that is a bit of a buding ego-maniac? Hmmm, could Percy fit that definition as well? Maybe that is why we wonder whether Percy has evil tendencies. He does seem quite infatuated with his own little world. Melody From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Fri Oct 18 02:10:24 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 03:10:24 +0100 Subject: Classist Hogwarts (was ... was .... was...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021018013907.00979ba0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45502 At 20:10 17/10/02 +0000, swimsalone wrote: >I woud argue that of course a Boarding school is somewhat >elitist, but the presence of the Weasleys seems to indicate that >this elitist element is extremely unimportant (except to Ron who >feels quite put-upon to be poor in a school packed with >privileged children) in the long run. The subject of class at Hogwarts (and in the Potterverse in general) was the subject of a long debate back in July beginning with msg #41210). I had a few things to say in that discussion, but don't know what happened as I had to bow out of following HPFGU for a while in the middle of it (and don't have the time or energy right now to re-read it all). I don't want to repeat what I (or others) said then, but I have a few hopefully fresh thoughts on this subject. Before I get stuck in, let's define our terms. I get the impression that the word "class" has slightly different undertones on either side of the Atlantic. In America, it's almost exclusively about money, and to a lesser degree about power. Later down the line comes "breeding", or inheritance. In the UK, the priorities are absolutely reversed (it's difficult to talk about Britain being a class-ridden society without appreciating that fact). By whichever measure of "class", Hogwarts as an institution shows no preference. We have the purebloods: the wealthy and aristocratic Malfoys, the impoverished professional Weasleys, the wealthy Potters about whose professional standing we know nothing at present, and the not-apparently wealthy Longbottoms. We have the mixed-bloods: Seamus, and Riddle from the Muggle orphanage. We have the Muggle-born: Hermione with her professional parents, the well-heeled Finch-Fletchley, and the milkman's sons the Creeveys. Incidentally, some may not be aware of this, but the "milkman" is the archetypal English bottom-of-the-ladder in terms of social standing, wealth and any other class indicator one can mention. He's the guy who does an important job whom nobody notices. A couple of other things, though: the milkman is a dying breed in Britain, as more and more people buy their milk from supermarkets rather than have it delivered. Furthermore, the milkman is the subject of many jokes having affairs with his lady customers while their husbands are at work (as is the window-cleaner)... :-) I think JKR has gone to a great deal of trouble to ensure that we're aware that Hogwarts does not differentiate between the backgrounds of its pupils, and that pupils get along with those from different social or economic backgrounds (though see below). This ties in with my post a couple of days ago about "prejudice" being the big theme of the books. The only grounds for acceptance at Hogwarts is magical aptitude (which does not have to be especially strong; the bare bones are enough; magical power and ability are VERY varied in Harry's year), but that is not unreasonable. After all, in the real world, a drama or music school (whether privately or publicly funded) would not be expected to accept pupils who do not show even the barest talent or interest. Yes, pupils have to acquire their own school supplies. The Weasleys make no mention of a bursary or other support system to assist them in kitting out the kids, although Riddle who (apparently) had no magical funds when he went to Hogwarts managed to have what he needed. It could be that in the Weasleys' case, this is another example of their pride and reluctance to accept what they might consider to be handouts. However (and this is a BIG "however"!) in one respect, Hogwarts not only turns a blind eye to prejudice, but makes of it a central element in its operation: the House system. There is a definite difference in the way the four houses are perceived and treated, both by the staff and students. House rivalries are encouraged, and inter-House friendships seem to be discouraged, if only by the way the school is run. As has been pointed out several times before, both the House and Quidditch Cups appear to be mainly Slytherin-Gryffindor battles. Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff are prepared to cheer Gryffindor along, as long as Slytherin doesn't win. Hufflepuff are generally considered as also-rans. Hence such a big deal being made of Cedric's selection as Hogwarts' Champion. Note, however, that pupils are sorted NOT by their social, familial or economic background, but by their own character and aptitudes. "It is not important where we came from, but who we are." Poor Riddle with his (presumably) not-well-off magical mother and grandfather is sorted into the same House as wealthy, aristocratic Malfoy; rich Harry joins the impoverished Weasleys. I would therefore suggest that whilst Hogwarts is not classist (or even elitist), it encourages people to distrust those whose priorities and characters are different to their own... -- GulPlum, who really should read through the entire JUly thread sometime... From Malady579 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 18 03:10:45 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 03:10:45 -0000 Subject: KITCHEN SINKs can clog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45503 While I would like to write this as a TBAY, I must say I have not yet discerned all the nuances of the main voices on this list to create any sort of dialogue that is remotely accurate. My apologies. Y'all are a diverse bunch to keep track of but greatly intriguing. So let?s begin... Pippin composed: > "Oh, I see." says Pippin. "So Dumbledore must accept that > there is no good and evil, only the power to defeat Voldemort and > those too weak to use it?" Ummm, Pippin, I hate to point it out, ok I am slightly please :), but you quoted that part of canon wrong. The quote goes, "There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to *seek* it..." (PS/SS, Ch 17) [the astericks are my own] I know that one word is so small but there is a big difference between *seeking* and *using*. There is nothing wrong with using power. It is why power is bestowed in the first place, so the person could use it. The problem with *seeking* power is that it implies that the seeker is desiring power. It is said often that the best person for the job is the one that does not want it. To desire to be so strong and powerful is an exercise of ego. (as I wink to bugaloo37 ) For Quirrel to say that there is no evil or good means that he believes that he/Voldemort alone is capable of deciding the fate of their actions. That is what power is. You are a judge, jury, and jailor. For those that pursue power, the thought is intoxication. I will say that Dumbledore definitely would not fit that description. He has even been given the chance to become more powerful as Minister of Magic, but declined it for a more *rewarding* job, I assume. Of course being a MD supported, I must say that Dumbledore refused the job for that reason *and* to enable him the free time to bring about the inner workings of his offensive/defensive plan. :) Also gives his the advantage of the flexibility of Hogwarts with different teachers and students... But you scream, Dishwasher!Dumbledore does use his power to control everything! Dishwasher!Dumbledore abuses his power and manipulates all around him to *His* bidding and not their own! He is no better that if he Imperius'ed the lot and played pure puppetmaster! Honey, breath please. :) Dishwasher!Dumbledore uses his power to observe the world around and see how they make decisions and what their morals are. From that vantage point, he can make strategic moves to bring about the fall of Voldemort with little interference. He does not force the decisions on the "helpless victim" in your mind, but rather nudges them into situations that he knows they will perform to the best of their ability. You send certain soldiers into battle for different missions. Once in battle, they alone choose their own fate, but if the general knows his men, then he is able to predict their responses and protect his men. Now as the books progress, Dumbledore has discovered that it will involve many more than he planned, and thus makes the decisive decisions to include the student body and activate the "old crowd", but that is another post... As to your comparisons of Manipulator Dumbledore with Voldemort, I can only say, have you ever watched the movie Primal Fear? The premise of the movie is -sometimes some very good people do some very bad things.- That is how the defense lawyer defended his job as the purveyor of good not releaser of bad. My point is that tough decisions, one that go against the ideals, sometimes need to be made for the good of all involved. I am not talking a Catch 22, but it is of the same sort. Dumbledore can still greatly respect honor and bravery and still make those hard decisions...decisions that could turn out to be a bad thing. After all, the problem listees have with making Dumbledore a kind of manipulator is that Dumbledore has always been written as being good and perfect in every way. Manipulating can be a dirty business. Good Grandfather Dumbledore would not dabble in something so shaky. That high wire is very high and surrounded by a high gale wind. But as I said before, if anyone can walk it, Dumbledore can and still not resort to using the weapons of the enemy against them. Pippen continued: > "Yet Dumbledore goes and rewards Neville for his utterly > pointless and completely misguided gallantry in front of the > whole school. He not only rewards him, he does it in a way that > makes it clear he thinks it's the Gryffindor Edge to fight a > hopeless battle just because you're too, well, noble, to do > something that would have had a lot better chance of success." So you say that Dishwasher!Dumbledore would not award Neville points at the end of PS/SS. He would not see that Gryffindor winning the house cup would not be detrimental to school moral. Now I am not saying that Dumbledore would fix the House Cup...no, no, no...he would not do that...he is too noble...honest...shall I say, idealistic to do that. For Dumbledore believes the best house should win. Always. The point system, the givers, and the takers are never biased. (Yeah, and I am never sarcastic either. ) Nevertheless, you argue that by bestowing the points, Dumbledore is encouraging such acts of interference. Acts that could stop his plan of action. Possibly, possibly, but I think Dumbledore knows The Trio and knows that very few thinks can stop them when they are driven. In fact, the only things that do stop them are physical (broken leg, petrified), environmental (wall of rock in chamber, not there), and chance (not enough freezing potion for two). Yet, never the less, Dumbledore did reward the courage it took Neville to stand up to his friends. We cannot deny that. We can ponder his motives but not the facts. And really, has Dumbledore's encouragement of this action brought new resolve to Neville? Has Neville stood in the way of The Three sneaking around and into girl's bathrooms in CoS? Did it even bring Neville to stop Harry from sneaking in Hogsmeade when the grounded Neville had the chance in PoA? Neville doesn't even confront The Three when they show up with food from the kitchen, which has been obviously nicked by them. Really, what encouragement did Dumbledore provide that day? Dishwasher!Dumbledore would have probably figured Neville would be happy with his ten points and forget why he earned them. Oh but Pippen continues furthur: > "Because all he had to do was snitch to Percy. (Although, if > anyone had ever found out, Neville would have got his head > transfigured into a toilet. I am sure Amos Diggory would gladly > do the same to Dishwasher!Dumbledore, if he could. ) I think it would be Percy's head that would be transfigured. Who other than Dumbledore would believe Neville anyway? As for Diggory, it is my turn guys; Dumbledore did NOT see the TriWiz Cup Portkey twist!! In Dumbledore's perception, Cedric was not in more any danger than any of the other students whose name is not Harry. (Though I think it would of been amusing if just Cedric grabbed the cup, and when he portkeyed to the graveyard, a disappointed Voldemort commanded Pettigrew to take him back and grab Potter and returned to the graveyard leaving Cedric dazed and confused. But that is my musing and would probably loosen the tension of the scene sequence a bit. Anyway...) > As Pippin cranks her can(n)on into position, GrayWolf, > Bluesqueak and Melody can see the writing on the side: > > K.I.T.C.H.E.N.S.I.N.K. -- Knighthood Is Triumphant, Chivalry > Happily Endures, Neville Shows It's Not Kaput Anyone have some Mrs. Skower's All-Purpose Magical Mess Remover around here to clean this mess up? Melody From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Oct 18 03:29:28 2002 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 03:29:28 -0000 Subject: Why the Order of the Phoenix? In-Reply-To: <6e.2233ecd9.2aa90f4e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45504 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., kathrynbav at a... wrote: > Hi, > I have been enjoying the debate here ever since I recently joined and > hope it is not too presumptuous for me to post a question/theory at this > time. Please mark it up as newbie ignorance if this has been talked into the > ground before (but isn't constant analysis/discussion/vigilance what makes > HP4GU so much fun?). > Last night I came across the Lexicon's fascinating page for *Harry > Potter and the Order of the Phoenix,* but something puzzles me about the > title and the predictions regarding the much-anticipated Book Five. Why do > we assume that this new order will consist of Dumbledore and "the Old Crowd"? > Before looking for your delete key or opening up a return e-mail, please > consider the following: > How are the titles of the previous four books of the Harry Potter > series connected? > 1) Philosopher's/Sorceror's Stone - A mythical stone believed to > enable to creation of the Elixir of Life that extends the lifetime of the one > who consumes it. Voldemort and his minion search in vain for the object, but > fall short of their goal that could have resurrected the Dark Lord. > 2) Chamber of Secrets - Site of Tom Riddle's greatest victory (both > the source of great dark power and the illusion of his good deed that saves > Hogwarts). The TomRiddle!Diary strives desperately to reclaim/resurrect this > past success by reopening the Chamber (and thus enabling himself to become > physically substantial), but is doomed for failure as the victory is snatched > away at the last moment. > 3) Prisoner of Azkaban - Although the WW lives under the illusion > that Sirius Black betrayed the Potters, Book Three reveals that he in fact > was a pawn in Voldemort's power struggle. The truth of Wormtail's betrayal, > combined with Padfoot's victory over the Dementors and escape, prove that > even when darkness seems to succeed, the light of truth will shine through > the shadows. > 4) Goblet of Fire - Mystical object that binds into a magical > contract those whose names it chooses. Fake!Moody corrupts this tool in > order to set-up Harry for Voldemort. As is common in most pivotal moments > (as well as the darker tone creeping into the series), this marks a potential > success for the Dark Arts. Only time will tell. > So, what does all this mean for Book Five: *Harry Potter and the > Order of the Phoenix*? If my assumptions above are even remotely correct, > then could it not be argued: > 5) Order of the Phoenix - Secret organization created by, and for > the explicit use of, a newly resurrected Voldemort. A new name for a new > wave of destruction that will wash across the WW. > Yes, Harry's wand has Fawkes' feather at its core, but consider who > has the brother wand. As much as I love Fawkes and the good he represents, I > feel JKR's deliberate use of Fawkes' other feather is indicative of another > layer of symbolism beyond the fireworks at the end of Book Four. > A phoenix is a bird that rises from the ashes of its own destruction: > a) "Bone of the father; unknowingly given, you will renew your son!" > > b) "Flesh - of the servant - (willingly) given - you will - revive - > your master." > c) "(Blood) of the enemy ... forcibly taken ... you will ... > resurrect your foe." (GoF, Ch. 32) > Betrayed since birth by the father who would not love him, Voldemort > suffers another severe blow when his servant's efforts to aid the Dark Lord's > cause lead to the near destruction of the leader at the hands (eyes?) of a > young Harry Potter. How fitting that the elements - the ashes - of > Voldemort's greatest defeat(s) shall in turn bring about his revival. > And from the ashes of his own destruction, he will be resurrected > with new life. Only a twisted soul like Voldemort could corrupt a concept > based upon light and goodness. And as is common in the psyche of > arch-villains, only Voldemort would be arrogant enough to acquaint his > successful resurrection with that of the phoenix (the core of his power). > I realize that the above will probably be deemed a stretch, but I > would like to point out that much of the debate stimulated here is based upon > *assumptions* regarding textual evidence. What I loved most about the film > *The Sixth Sense* was the fact that the audience could never assume they know > the complete truth. Just when you least expect it, the tables can turn, > revealing the truth that was there all along. This is what I love so much > about JKR's Harry Potter series, and this is what causes me the greatest > frustration as I observe the various debates. If you question the above > theory, you should read some of the other ideas I have generated under the > question of whether we assume too much. > Once again, I apologize for any and all mistakes in posting this. I > am simply hoping for advice/guidance. If I am wrong, please do not label me > an idiot; rather, point me back along the correct path. As I slip back into > lurkdom, thanks, once again, for the lively debate. Kathy Thanks, Kathy, good point... I think the Order of the Phoenix is equivalent to the Order of Cincinnatus and is the secret society of good guys....my beloved partner thinks it's a medal, but last night she suggested that it was the secret good guy society of YOUNG PEOPLE..that Harry, Hermione, Ron and whomever else had a group called the Order of the Phoenix... Can't wait to find out! Susan From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Fri Oct 18 03:40:02 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 04:40:02 +0100 Subject: Whats so special about Voldemort? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45505 Hi all I know we have not seen too much of Lucius Malfloy in the series, but if he's a grown-up version of Draco, which sounds likely and fits with what we do know of him, why did he not assume the leadership of the Death Eaters after Voldemort's fall, he could have had it all? I know that the MAGIC DISHWASHER thoery proposes a massive conspircy to allow Voldemort to return to power, and other thoeries cover a conspiacty between Lucius and Voldemort to allow the latter to return to power, but why is Voldemort so importent to the DEs? Why could someone else not become the leader? Why was Voldemort so important that the movement practically fell apart after his fall? Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 18 03:56:41 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 03:56:41 -0000 Subject: Whats so special about Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45506 Chris asked: > Why could someone else not become the leader? Why was Voldemort so >important that the movement practically fell apart after his fall? Well I assume, and this is purely *my* own opinion, that when the shepherd was struck the sheep scattered. Voldemort purposely groomed *his* group of followers to be dependent upon *him* alone. We are told only Voldemort knew who they all were. Only Voldemort gave them orders. I think he thrived on the power over men...any man whether a supporter or not. Voldie also provided a huge skirt for the DE's to hide behind. Once that curtain fell, and fell fast, the DE's were left exposed and panicked. No time to regroup. Must run, flee, make up brilliant schemes. And also, the goals of Voldemort all surrounded around him. Live forever. Rule Europe then the world. Can't continue with the beliefs of the party when the center falls out. So basically, old Voldie was not interesting in grooming a successor who could conceivably grow to such prominence in the group that they might take over. Not good for the old ego. Better to keep the men (and woman) in subordinate roles. And besides, Voldie wants to live forever. Why would he need a successor? Melody From cindysphynx at comcast.net Fri Oct 18 04:37:50 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 04:37:50 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Operative!Arthur Attacks Auror!Arthur In-Reply-To: <002901c2763d$69e9ae40$4a729fc1@computer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45507 "**FREEZE**!!! Hold it *right* there! I SAID *BREAK IT UP*!!!" Two men dressed in black, one bald and the other burly, flashed their badges at the foursome that had assembled on the deck of the Imperius!Arthur Trimaran. "You heard me! Drop the paddles *right now!* Up against the wall, *all* of you!" Veronica, Ethanol, Eileen and Abigail backed away from Cindy, who was curled on the deck in a fetal position, her trembling hands protecting her vital organs. They threw their pink plastic Parallelism paddles to the ground in disgust and raise their empty hands over their heads, avoiding eye contact. The agents hustled forward, spinning the women to face the nearest wall. "Who *are* you?" asked Vernonica over her shoulder. "And what are you doing on *my* Ship?" "We're Hit Wizards, ma'am," said the bald agent flatly. "From the Department of Creative Theorizing." "The Department of . . . " Ethanol mumbled vaguely. "We received a report of a Dog Pile here on the Trimeran ? *with* Special Circumstances," added the burly agent. "Special Circumstances?" echoed Abigail. The burly agent narrowed his eyes. "That's right, special circumstances -- *Acronym Envy.* Something about a four-way attack on one poor theorist who has some really great canon for a new theory. We can't allow that here in the Bay. I'm going to have to run you all in." He turned to the crowd that had assembled to watch the commotion on deck. "Move along, folks. There's nothing to see here." "Wait!" Veronica cried. "We had no idea we couldn't gang up on Cindy. I mean, she *likes* it when people gang up on her." "A likely story," the bald agent sneered. He pulled Cindy to her feet, catching her when her knees buckled and she sagged momentarily. She leaned heavily against the deck rail, taking deep breaths, her hands shaking so badly that her Big Paddle slipped from her grasp and thudded to the deck. "Captain Cindy, we're going to need a statement." "Um . . . " Cindy wiped a thin layer of sweat from her forehead with her sleeve. "Uh, right . . . OK . . . um, I'm not sure I can remember everything they said. It all happened so *fast.* They were talking all at once!" She gave a small shudder. "It -? it was *horrible!* It's all a blur, Officer, you don't know what it was like --" "Don't worry, Captain. They can't hurt you now." "I know, I know. OK. Well, the problem here is that these -? these *theorists* -- aren't buying Operative!Arthur. They prefer Imperius! Arthur. And Auror!Arthur. And Fillicide!Arthur. And now something called "Auror by Night, Operative by Day, Imperio'edOccasionally," which seems somehow lacking in focus, if you want my ?- " "Just the facts, ma'am." "I'm getting there, I'm getting there. Well, first of all, these Imperius!Arthur adherents are giving me a really hard time about the whole idea that Operative!Arthur would have kept his identity as an Unspeakable a secret. They have some kind of problem with that idea for some --" "I'm not leaving here without some *answers!*" Eileen broke in. "Like why does an ex-auror like Moody know about Arthur's Operative status? It says in Fantastic Beasts that all Departments are answerable to Magical Law Enforcement, except perhaps the Department of Mysteries. I just don't see the point of letting the aurors scrutinize the operatives." "You're talking about Fake Moody's lesson on the Unforgivables? Oh, that's easy," Cindy said, as the agents scratched feverishly in their notebooks with their quills. "Fake Moody may have known about Arthur's status as an Unspeakable during that lesson. But there are two things that might be going on. Either Crouch Jr. got the information out of real Moody, or Crouch Jr. knew this information on his own. I think it is quite possible that Crouch Jr. learned about Arthur's covert status from his DE colleagues, from his time in Azkaban, or ?- and I prefer this last one -? from his many years spent under an invisibility cloak while his father was in Magical Law enforcement or later when his father was socializing with people like Fudge. No, Crouch Jr.'s knowledge of Arthur's true avocation isn't a problem at all. "In fact," Cindy said, "I have no problem with the idea that Arthur and Real Moody have some sort of special relationship. We've talked about that before -? it just seems so odd that the Muggle Artifacts guy is so tight with a top-notch Auror. It gets less odd if Arthur and Moody worked together during the Voldemort years, with Arthur supplying the intelligence and Moody supplying the firepower. That would explain Arthur's protective feelings for Moody." The burly agent exchanged knowing glances with his partner, nodding appreciatively. "I know what the real problem is, though," Cindy went on. "It's the Filicide!Arthur crowd, isn't it? They keep whipping their FEATHERBOAS through the air, agitating for a dead Weasley Seventh Son. Fine, I say, they can *have* a dead Weasley Seventh Son. Whatever." "Ma'am, you expect us to believe that Operative!Arthur can exist without Imperius!Arthur and still deliver up a Seventh Son corpse?" asked the bald agent. "He has a point," added Ethanol. "See, the basic problem of both Unspeakable!Arthur and Auror!Arthur is: why does nobody, especially the younger Weasleys, know about Arthur's secret life? Well, there are two compelling reasons why somebody keeps silent about his past: shame and guilt." "Ah, but there's a third and fourth potential reason for Arthur's discretion about his secret life," Cindy countered. "There's Duty, and there's Fear. It seems logical that an operative would be sworn to secrecy for life, so that's Duty. "But personally, I like Fear as Arthur's motivation, myself. It's Bangier." "Fear?" Ethanol asked. "Like the fear I had when I first dipped my toe in the Bay?" "Well, sort of," Cindy allowed. "Moody is paranoid and fears for his safety, worried about the families of those he apprehended, right? Well, maybe Arthur also made some enemies in his covert operations work ?- particularly if that work was in a partnership with Moody. Maybe a few of those enemies penetrated Arthur's cover and learned he was really an Unspeakable. And maybe they made him pay. Oh, they made him pay Big Time. Maybe they killed Seventh Son as an act of revenge or intimidation, with Arthur coming home to find the Dark Mark over his house. So Seventh Son didn't die by Arthur's hand while under Imperius. I mean, come *on!* No, if Seventh Son was killed by anyone, he was killed by Arthur's enemies. "And that, Officer, is why Arthur has never revealed to anyone the extent of his undercover work as an Unspeakable. Part of it is guilt, all right. But part of it is Arthur's desire to maintain his cover to protect what remains of his family. A desire based in plain old fear of reprisal." "No way," said Ethanol, shaking her head defiantly. "Arthur is an Unspeakable under Fudge's reign? The same Fudge who is confronted with Harry's eyewitness account and the body of AKed Cedric and *still* doesn't believe that Voldemort is back. So why would they plant a secret operative in the MoM?" "Well, Dumbledore is clear that not everyone sees things the same way as Fudge," Cindy said. "Dumbledore says, 'All those that we can persuade of the truth must be notified immediately, and [Arthur] is well-placed to contact those at the Ministry who are not as shortsighted as Cornelius.' Oh, there are plenty of people in MoM who are willing to believe in Voldemort's return, and I think there's reason to believe Dumbledore is talking about those who fought Voldemort last time around. There'd be no reason to send an urgent message to anyone else, right?" "Nah, I'm not buying it," said Eileen. "Crouch Jr. would have blown his cover big-time if it got out that Moody was exposing Ministry operatives to a bunch of 14 year old students. Twisted he was, but stupid he was not." "Uh, gee. Fake Moody uses Imperius on students right there in the classroom in front of God and everyone over Hermione's objections, and you think he is the least bit worried about blowing his cover?" Eileen hesitated. "Yes, it's got Bang. Definite Bang. Both past, present, and future. But I'm not going to take an Operative!Arthur that Crouch Jr. feels comfortable chatting to the class about." "What?!?" Cindy cried. "Where exactly in canon does Crouch Jr. feel comfortable chatting to the class about Operative!Arthur? None of the kids works out this parallelism at all. They never put the parallelism thing together. *Elkins* put that together! That *hardly* makes it canon!" There was an audible gasp from the bystanders. Several of them fell to their knees, mumbling about repentance. "I didn't mean that," Cindy said quickly. "I don't know what got into me there. *Of course* something is canon if Elkins says it is." Cindy shook her head sharply. "Take that out of my statement, Officer. I must still be in shock or something to say such a thing." "Look," Abigail said impatiently, "what does Operative!Arthur accomplish that Auror!Arthur doesn't?" Cindy paused, rubbing her temples thoughtfully. "Well, Operative! Arthur isn't going to be hacked to bits by Occam's Razor, for one thing. See, Auror!Arthur requires a towering heap of canon leaps to work. First, you have to negotiate the whole Unforgivable Trilogy Parallelism gymnastics. Then you have to run the gauntlet that Arthur would keep his role as an Auror secret and that he would later allow himself to be shunted aside into Muggle Artifacts. You have to bungee jump off of the "Why did Arthur take Charlie to work and pose as a Muggle Artifacts guy way back when" bridge. Then you have to dodge hostile fire to establish some Major Guilt motive for Arthur to maintain this whole big secret for all these years. Finally, you have to saddle up and ride the whole "Dumbledore seeks out Arthur upon Voldemort's return knowing Arthur is vulnerable to Imperius." Imperius!Arthur is a complicated mess, he really is. "Now, Operative!Arthur makes this journey without all of that. The idea is simply that Arthur has always been an Unspeakable. His job is and was to gather intelligence on Dark Wizards, passing it along to folks like Moody who would do the actual dirty work. He was never under Imperius, and he may or may not have used it in his work. He didn't slay his own son; if Seventh Son exists, he was killed by bad guys. "You want more Bang? Oh, Operative!Arthur is a Random Bang Generator. See, Arthur has stayed in the Unspeakable Department all these years hoping to someday avenge his son's death. That's his life's work ?- he'll *never* give it up, he'll never rest, until he has done right by Seventh Son. "What's that? Still not sold? Oh, this is a tough crowd. Fine. You can have Arthur staying as an Unspeakable because he still loathes Lucius and hopes to nail Lucius. Because he thinks Lucius had something to do with Seventh Son's death, but Arthur just can't prove it -- yet. Which makes Lucius' remarks about the Weasleys having too many children all the more heinous and cruel. "Hey, if you want, Moody can have lost his leg and eye in an ambush of the very people who murdered Seventh Son ?" The burly agent reached into his pocket and pulled out a single, crisply folded Yellow Flag. "Well, you get the point," said Cindy quickly. "Besides, I'm not off canon with Operative!Auror. Not yet, anyway. Dumbledore had 'a number of useful spies,' right? No one on this list has come up with a very good theory on who these spies other than Snape could be. I say one of them was Arthur Weasley. Operative!Arthur Weasley." "Wait!" cried Abigail. "What about my three-pronged attack? Don't I get any credit for my three-pronged attack? At the QWC, Arthur is awfully casual about Unspeakables Bode and Croaker. I mean, he up and volunteers that information." "Not a problem," Cindy said. "Remember, Arthur is in deep cover *and* posing as a Muggle Artifacts guy. He's supposed to be popular enough and well connected enough to get Top Box tickets for his whole family and guests. Obviously, the *existence* of the Department of Mysteries is hardly a big secret. The crowd in the Pensieve certainly understands its significance. So when Arthur sees Bode and Croaker -? two low-level guys who aren't undercover at all ?- he naturally identifies them, but doesn't reveal what the Department of Mysteries *does.* Just like any good operative posing as an affable, popular Muggle Artifacts specialist would." Abigail seemed non-plussed. "Think about the connotations of 'Unspeakables' -- unspeakable crime, unspeakable horror. That's hardly something you'd like to be associated with Arthur Weasley." "Hey, that's pretty darn good, Abigail!" Cindy allowed. "Why thank you!" Abigail said brightly, adjusting her handcuffs. "And I thank you. Because it makes Operative!Arthur even more Bangy! Oh, he deals in the dirtiest, lowest, darkest depths of MoM, handling the worst of the worst. No wonder he has a family clock with 'Mortal Peril' as one of the settings. Fits right in, I'd say," Cindy said, grinning broadly. "Well, I'm not worried," Ethanol said. "I must make a confession. I'm an ambassador from Elkins." "You're asserting *diplomatic immunity* now?" Cindy scowled. "Oh, this is too much!" "Yep," Ethanol replied. "Elkins sent me here on a mission to salvage Fillicide!Arthur. We say Auror!Arthur was imperioed, causing directly or (more likely) indirectly Missing Weasley child's death. That would be more guilt and shame than anyone can ask for." "You know what you and Elkins have there, Ethanol?" Cindy asked patiently. Ethanal stood frozen, her gaze fixed on Cindy. "You have a theory that is *too* Bangy. I never thought I'd hear myself say that, but it is true. That Filicide!Arthur theory is Way Over The Top. It's not just Bangy in the normal sense of the word ?- it's like a Neutron Bomb of Creative Theorizing. You wanna know why? Because if Arthur killed his son, Imperius or no Imperius, he wouldn't behave the way he does when the Dark Mark is discussed. Any parent who has suffered the death of a child for any reason is *devastated.* And if the parent somehow *killed* the child, that parent wouldn't be able to function very well when the subject comes up, even 10 years later. Yet look at Arthur's discussion of the Dark Mark: 'Mr. Weasley winced.' That's it. Sorry, but that reaction just isn't convincing enough for someone who killed his own child. "Unless," Cindy smirked, "you want to toss in a Memory Charm to help poor Arthur get over this little bit of trauma. Yeah. We can toss that into the cargo hold of Imperius!Arthur, but I don't see how the thing can stay afloat with all of this *baggage* it requires. Oh, Imperius!Arthur does not travel light, does he? Not at all!" "All right, that's enough," the bald agent said abruptly. "You're all going downtown. Tell it to the judge." "You're going to *arrest* me?" Abigail cried. "But I'm *new* to the Bay. I had no idea about the prohibition against Dog Piles!" "Ignorance of the law is no excuse, ma'am," the burly agent said evenly. "Now, are you going to go quietly, or am I going to have to call for back-up? They have a new canine agent who is eager for some field work. Goes by the name of 'Prank,' I'm told." *************** Cindy ************ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% 20Files/hypotheticalley.htm > > and Inish Alley at > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=13 From debmclain at yahoo.com Fri Oct 18 01:52:08 2002 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie McLain) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 01:52:08 -0000 Subject: There are no missing Weasley children theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45508 I understand the reason why so many people think there must be missing children from the Weasley family - such a large gap between them. However, what if Mr. Weasley was MIA - then there would be no children in those years (unless Mrs. Weasley had an affair, which we know she didn't). Perhaps Mr. Weasley was under LV's control? Perhaps he had to go in hiding like the Potters and had a secret keeper? Maybe he was locked in Azkaban? The possibilies are endless, and I think we will find out more in the following books. -Debbie From awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu Fri Oct 18 03:29:42 2002 From: awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:29:42 -0700 Subject: Cho's identity References: <1034884224.3423.29916.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001a01c27656$99809100$75d2df80@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 45509 > The Lestrange aren't chinese. they are described in detail in > Crouch's trial. I doubt it would be Cho. > "atrocity.geo" Well, I have a little something to add... perhaps this is something that they thought of. I mean, perhaps the Lestranges knew that if they named their daughter Kelly Lestrange it would be obvious who she was related to, and as a result she wouldn't be able to infiltrate the WW to bring about the return of the Dark Lord! Of course, one could also argue that Cho's a Ravenclaw, not Slytherin. Or, that if she wasn't Asian, which most people would automatically assume from at least her last name if not her first, that there would be some sort of comment about how she wasn't Asian. Or, perhaps we will find out Cho is short for something, and we'll find out later. Hmmm. Aesha From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Fri Oct 18 04:03:39 2002 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (K-lo) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:03:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Whats so special about Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45510 > >> >Why could someone else not become the leader? Why was Voldemort so >> important that the movement practically fell >>> apart after his fall? > >> >Chris > > I don?t think I?d want to assume leadership if there was even the possibility of Voldemort coming back. I doubt he?d take it kindly if someone, even temporarily, assumed power. Also, it?s possible that the Dark Mark that everyone has on their arms is linked to him directly. In GOF, Snape showed his tattoo to Fudge and mentioned that it was so apparent because Voldemort was getting stronger. Which makes me wonder is that if Voldemort actually died, would the DE?s die as well? Sort of an insurance that none of them attempt an uprising against him? Just a thought.. -Padawanmage [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Fri Oct 18 07:09:06 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:09:06 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] There are no missing Weasley children theory - but some funny things References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45511 I agree with Debbie here, I don't believe that there are any missing children from the Weasley family. I'm not sure offhand how much older Bill and Charlie are, but I guess that there are five years between them and Percy. That is nearly the same as the difference between me and my younger brother, so its not improbabule. However, there are perculiaties in their 'baby boom'. Keeping events in context, Percy, Fred and George were born while Voldemort was rising in power, and Ron, being the same age as harry, was born about a year before Voldemort fell. Ginny would have been born almost before the fall, or just after as we don't know her birthdate. - In short, Arthur and Molly had children in an age where no one was safe, why would they bring Children into that world? Perhaps Voldemort had something to do with that. Could he have been forcing pureblood couples to produce children? If so, why? Or could Authur have been making a point, life must go on or, "look, Malfloy, evil never pays, we have more children". Thoughts? Chris Ps: I have not reponded directly to any part of the preceeding message, therefore no clippings. C ----- Original Message ----- From: Debbie McLain To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 2:52 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] There are no missing Weasley children theory I understand the reason why so many people think there must be missing children from the Weasley family - such a large gap between them. However, what if Mr. Weasley was MIA - then there would be no children in those years (unless Mrs. Weasley had an affair, which we know she didn't). Perhaps Mr. Weasley was under LV's control? Perhaps he had to go in hiding like the Potters and had a secret keeper? Maybe he was locked in Azkaban? The possibilies are endless, and I think we will find out more in the following books. -Debbie Yahoo! 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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Fri Oct 18 07:43:56 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TBAY: Weasley Predisposition To Imperius? Message-ID: <20021018074356.45284.qmail@web40311.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45512 I asked for it, didn?t I?...I can?t believe I?m really going to do this.... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Lilac, flanked by her two fellow filkers, Nicole and Gail, notice a lady across the sand as they stand right at the waters edge of Theory Bay, letting the water lap over their toes. This lady looks a little bit like one of those people on the bus who talk to themselves non-stop, but when Lilac sees the hesitant wave and the kindly smile, she is reminded of someone, but it takes her a moment to realize who... "...Dumbledore..." Lilac mutters. "What?" questions Gail, looking up from her parchment, her large peacock quill pausing mid-sentence. She is looking quite smashing in her lilac colored Minstrel outfit. "She reminds me of Dumbledore. Very brilliant, but also a bit mad. I can see it in her eyes." says Lilac, staring at the lady. "Is that who I think it is?" asks Nicole, who has her hand-held-computer in one hand, a _Beauty and the Beast_ book in the other, and is wearing a pair of Mickey Mouse ears at a jaunty angle. Her mouth is still open in a gesture of mild shock. The next moment, Nicole and Lilac look at each other and at the same time say, "ELKINS!" "That's Elkins? Wow!" gasps Gail. She takes a pause, then goes on. "Okay, Lilac, we're here, but *you* do all the talking, got it? I told you that I don't mind visiting Theory Bay, but I just want to find a nice little raft that I can float on as I?m writing filks. I?m almost finished with this "Seventh Son" filk, but I'll be here for moral support. Okay?" "Okee dokee, cow pokee!" Lilac responds. "But seriously..." "Don't you mean 'Siriusly'?" Nicole asks as she raises an eyebrow. "Of course I did, I never tire from that bad pun...but 'Siriusly', I *had* to bring you both here because I can't take all the credit for the CONNIVING CHICK'S REVENGE theory. Nicole came up with the acronym and you made the filk for it. I think we're the only ones in the world that consider it viable and a little bit "bangy". But, you're right, it's only fair I do the talking here. I'm the one that started it all by sending that message about wanting to go to Theory bay. That's why Elkins wants to talk to me, I suspect. I just want you there when we talk about our ever-so-evil Cho theory." "...Elkins...she complimented me on one of my acronyms once...the evil sorting hat theory...SHINING Sorting Hat Is Neither Innocent Nor Good..." Nicole whispers, still a little star-struck. She suddenly looks at Lilac with a big smile on her face and says quite loudly, "This is so cool to meet her in person!" "I know. I'm a little nervous about it myself. She's brilliant, and I just write filks. Those TBAY writers intimidate me because they all sound like they have Ph D's...and they probably do." Lilac plucks up her courage and squares her shoulders. "Okay... here goes nothing..." Lilac starts towards Elkins, Nicole and Gail letting her lead the way. "You must be Elkins, correct?" Lilac asks. "Did you bring your balalaika, or the theorbo?" Elkins asks with a kindly smile and a twinkle in her eye. "My bala-what or my theor-who?" Lilac asks back, her face showing her confusion. *Sounds like Dumbledore's nonsense words...* she thinks to herself. "I just love Shakespeare references!" Gail pipes up. "Good girl! Someone who knows her Bard. However, your "leader" here with the water wings seems to have no clue whatsoever... well, no matter... let's get to it, shall we?" Elkins gets up, dusts the sand off of her knees, and faces the three newcomers. "Um..well, it's nice to finally meet you. I'm Lilac, and this is Gail and Nicole. I asked them to be here with me, I hope you don't mind. So, er...you wanted to speak with me, correct?" "Correct. You had some comments about the Imperius!Arthur that Veronica mentioned to me and I think you had some...how shall I put it...'interesting' ideas about some things." Lilac's heart sank just a little. She'd owled TBAY a few days ago with some off-the-top-of-her-head musings that might help Veronica get her Trimaran water-tight. *Dang it!* she thought. *I should have thought those things out a little bit more thoroughly before I sent them. I know they like their can(n)ons in TBAY...* "Okay, sure. Where shall we go to talk?" "Let's just stroll on the promenade." She gestures them forward while muttering under her breath "Of course, they want to visit when a hurricane is coming..." "I'm sorry, I didn't hear you...what did you say?" Lilac asks. "Nothing...nothing at all. Right then. You know that comment about Arthur passing bits of Imperio on to Ron and Ginny?" *Uh, oh, here it comes...* "Yes?" "A moot point, really. There's not that much difference between a genetic magical predisposition and an ?environmental? one that nonetheless has an inescapable and quasi-somatic effect on children. It comes to exactly the same thing, doesn't it?" "Um...yes?" Lilac responds with what she hopes is the right answer. *Man, she uses really big words. I'm too used to small, monosyllabic words that my two year old can understand...* "In either case, you're still talking about a predisposition which is beyond the individual's control and not even strictly speaking a matter of ?nurture,? or of upbringing. It's still a heritable condition, even if it is not genetically determined. Even in the real world, many of the things that we believe to be "heritable" are now believed to be not *strictly* genetically determined, but also largely a matter of somatic environmental factors, like parental hormonal balance and body chemistry and the like. So I don't know if I think that." Elkins continues, "I think that the text emphasizes quite strongly the notion that it is what one chooses to *do* with ones particular talents that matters the most. I don't think that the text anywhere implies that heritable conditions do not exist, or that heredity does not play a significant role when it comes to the particular talents and weaknesses that one has to work with." "Oh, yes, I agree with you completely. The famous Dumbledore speech in COS that our choices matter more than our abilities. "Right you are. But think about this...would it damage the books on the thematic level, if it were to emerge that some people are more vulnerable to the Imperius Curse than others for reasons other than inherent weakness of will?" "No, I wouldn't think so...it would be just like real life, wouldn't it? We're all blessed with different talents and weaknesses, and part of the purpose, I think, in being on this earth is to develop our talents and to overcome our weakness to the best of our abilities." "Well, that's part of it, but you're right in saying that's real life. Here's my point: If I had to pick the one thing that I think that JKR does the very *best* in these books, I would probably cite the clear-eyed yet compassionate approach she takes to that one fundamentally unpalatable truth: Life Just *Isn't* Fair." "That?s true." *Wow, she's good.* "Thematic consistency, Jo! Thematic consistency! For God's sake, is it really all that much to ask?" *Okay...a little bit of a Moody moment there. Don?t know what that was all about. She's mad, but she's bloody brilliant.* Lilac finally lets go of the bench now that the ground has stopped shaking. "Oh, well. I guess that we really can't complain too much about the fault line, can we? After all, if it weren't for that little quirk of geology, then this Bay wouldn't even exist." Elkins gives them a lopsided smile. "Right. Of course..." *What is she talking about?...* "Now, onto the second bit. Could Lucius have targeted Ginny in part because he knew that she would be unusually vulnerable to the Diary's effects?" "Oh, yes, I did ask something to that effect." "Well, I've always found myself curious about Lucius' plans for that Diary, actually. The timing of his slipping it to Ginny always seems to suggest to me that it was actually a spur of the moment decision, that Lucius was inspired by seeing the Weasleys there in the shop (not to mention by his brawl with Arthur and his irritation with the recent raids on his manor), and that he acted on that sudden impulse." "So you think Ginny wasn't the original target?" "I think that he meant to give it to Harry. From the very start, it is *Harry* Dobby identifies as particularly endangered by the Diary plot, and it is Harry Dobby tries to keep away from Hogwarts by any means possible. Lucius also might well have suspected that Harry might have inherited Voldemort's Parseltongue talent..." "Inherited? Or was it passed along from the AK? Oh, wait...we talked about that being a moot point. Sorry...I'm a little slow on the uptake. Please go on..." Elkins pauses a moment longer, probably to help Lilac feel a little silly for interrupting her. She gives her a patronizing smile and then continues. "My feeling is that Harry was the intended recipient for the Diary, and that Lucius changed his plan at the last minute out of pure malice and spite. Of course, that doesn't mean that he couldn't have known all about Arthur's tangle with Imperius, or even suspected that Arthur's children might be vulnerable. But I don't think that Ginny was his original choice to serve as the conveyor of Riddle's Diary to Hogwarts." "That does make a lot a sense, Elkins. I really must apologize for sending that owl to Veronica so quickly without thinking things through..." "Nonsense. These are things you need to know. I?ve been at Theory Bay much longer than you...much longer than I care to remember. I know how much you've wanted to visit here, but you still have much to learn. Yes, indeed, so very much to learn..." "Right. Thanks for taking the time..." "Oh, we're not quite done! Remember the last bit...let me see if I can remember your direct quote...'Could this also be the reason why Moody *does not* tell Ron he would make a good Auror? Because it's difficult for Ron to even overcome the after effects of the Imperius? ' " "That's exactly what I said. Let?s hear what you think." "Of course you will. I suppose that Crouch/Moody's comments *do* usually have more than one meaning, so it's possible that that was indeed the "Moody meaning," if you see what I mean." "OHMYGOSH! When I wrote that, I totally forgot that it was Crouch/Moody! I was thinking that it was the actual Moody, because Veronica was mentioning how he might be involved with Arthur's Imperius past. Oh, I feel like an idiot..." Lilac feels a dull blush creep up her face. *Oh, great, now my adolescent blushing decides to reinstate itself in front of Elkins.* "Don't get your knickers in a knot! You have much yet to learn, so it's okay that you forgot that pretty important plot element. That is to say...it's okay _this_ time." *Gulp* "_This_ time?..." "As for the *Crouch* meaning," Elkins continues, ignoring Lilac's last comment. "I've always been extremely partial to Charis Julia's analysis of Crouch's evaluation of the Trio's Auror talents -- so partial, in fact, that I've been seething with envy over it for *months* now. I wish that I had written it myself. I'd paraphrase it for you, but I couldn't possibly do it justice, so let me just give it to you..." She fumbles around in her pockets until she pulls out a well-worn parchment. She takes off the ribbon and unrolls the two foot long paper. Lilac notices spots where the ink has bled because the paper had been exposed to drops of some kind of liquid. *Drool, perhaps?* Lilac starts reading. Nicole and Gail peer over both of her shoulders to read the Elkin's beloved text. Elkins waits for them to finish reading. "That's my favored interpretation. I also think that Crouch was trying to stir up trouble by refusing to give Ron the stroking he so obviously wanted there. He hoped to make Ron feel inadequate, and to set off his envy. He was being cruel." Lilac hands the parchment roll back as Elkins continues. "But it is true that Crouch's statements almost always carry two separate meanings. They can usually be read at face value as well as at the second level. So perhaps Real!Moody genuinely *would* have passed on advising Ron to consider a career as an Auror. Because of the Imperius? Could be." "That would mean that Crouch Jr. had to know about Imperio!Arthur as well, correct? Maybe he was one of the Death Eaters involved?" "You could say that. But that is another topic for another day. So," Elkins claps her hands and rubs them together eagerly. "You?re off for a dip in TBAY?" "Wait! One more thing...Can you help us get to Captain Veronica's Trimaran? I don't even know what a trimaran looks like... "It's that one with the three masts. Like the three unforgiveables. It's rocking a bit because she is letting the Operative!Arthur people have berths, even though they spend half of their time picking on the Auror!Arthur brigade and the other half trying to scuttle the trimaran altogether. She's a regular old Dumbledore, is Captain Veronica." "What, you mean mad like Dumbledore?" "No, you silly, I mean accepting of all people like Dumbledore. You don't think he's really mad, do you. DO YOU???" "No, no, not at all." Lilac hopes her smile looks genuine. "Good then. There should be plenty of room for you Seventh Son adherents..." "Did you say Seventh Son? Funny you should mention that. Listen to this..." Gail clears her throat and starts singing her newest filk. The other three all listen, clearly impressed. "Well done, Gail, well done! I like that bit about Arthur's unwilling filicitide. That's the only way I like the Seventh Son theory myself. Oh, and do make sure you try the Pina Coladas. They're excellent. Well, I'm off..." "Elkins?" Nicole speaks up. "We wanted to ask you a few questions about our CONNIVING CHICK?S REVENGE theory and Lilac?s FAT CHANCE AT BALL theory. For instance, where do these acronyms belong?" Nicole points to the lifejackets and Lilac's water wings. "On the Big Bang, or somewhere else?" *Oh, that's right. Duh. The reason I brought my friends here. Good thing Nicole remembered to ask her. Smart one, she is.* "Water wings, eh? You must have young children, Lilac. Like I said, that is for another discussion at another time. I really must get back to my office back over where we found each other. Goodbye!" Elkins starts going back to the spot of the sand she was sitting in, where there is no visible office in sight. "Hey, she's humming that song, Gail. I think she really liked it." "Thanks Lilac. I really want to find a nice little raft soon for my relaxing float. I don?t need to visit the trimaran because I?ve done my research on the Seventh Son stuff all ready. Come visit me when you?re done doing...um...whatever you?re going to do." "I heard Veronica has a cabin boy that looks a little like Sirius Black!" Nicole winks at Lilac and they both start giggling like fourteen-year-olds. "Nah. Give me Snape any day. Oh, and one more thing, Lilac dearie..." "Yes, Gail?" "Next time you write a TBAY, do not, I repeat, DO NOT dress me in Lockhart's favorite color! Or give me his stupid, overly-large peacock quill. You know I despise the man!"(1) "I know...that's why I did it. I just couldn't help myself! But don?t worry...this may be my *only* visit. This is way out of my comfort zone!" The three filkers, whom Gail has unnofficially dubbed "Coriolan?s Angles", start wading into Theory Bay. ~Lilac, who must apologize profusely for this post because it had my comments to Elkins last post within it, but had lots of very much OT stuff in it as well. She hopes that the mods are forgiving to those who post their first (and probably last) TBAY. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anything pertaining to Gail or Nicole was taken from off-list personal email discussions. Anything Elkins said was pretty much word-for-word from post # 45444 because she is, well, brilliant. In fact, all of you are that thrive on this TBAY stuff . I?m insanely jealous! ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pat_mahony at hotmail.com Fri Oct 18 09:09:34 2002 From: pat_mahony at hotmail.com (The Kirk) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:09:34 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Operative!Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45513 As the burly agents from the Department of Creative Theorizing advanced on the crowd of Abigail, Veronica, Eileen, Ethanol and Cindy, they were blocked by the sudden Apparition of a tall, cloaked figure. "G'day," said the newcomer. "Who are you?" one of the men from the DCT asked suspiciously. "I go by a lot of names, but you can call me Roo," replied Roo, in a strong Australian accent. "I suppose you've come to gang up on Operative! Arthur?" Cindy inquired. "On the contrary," replied Roo, "I've come to help you protect Operative!Arthur." He glanced quickly around the room, noting the exits for a quick getaway. Cindy lightened up as he began: "I draw your attention to a piece of canon that's already been discussed- when Arthur Weasley mentions Bode and Croaker being Unspeakables. When Harry or Hermione replies, "They-re what?", Arthur says, "From the Department of Mysteries, top secret, no idea what they get up to. . .". Now the latter part of this statement sounds very much like he's just let on too much, and is now trying to cover up. . . that '. . . ' sounds very much like he's trailing off, trying to pretend nothing important just happened. Unfortunately for Arthur, he does tend to babble a bit too much; look at CoS, when Harry comes in from the car. His first reaction is how well it flew (or something to that effect), and appears to be momentarily unaware of Molly's disgruntled state. Yes, he does have a weakness to say more than he should. And another thing: he describes their work as top-secret, but then says "no idea what they get up to. . . ", as in "I don't know what they do. . ." "How does that help Operative!Arthur?" Cindy asked, a little cautiosly, beginning to suspect that Roo was dangerously insane. "Because it contributes to the cover-up I mentioned earlier. If Arthur *wasn't* an Unspeakable or Operative, wouldn't he say "*No one* knows they get up to. . ."? If he's covering up his own Operative/Unspeakable past or present, he'd refer to himself personally not knowing what they get up to, to protect himself. And notice too, that Bode and Croaker are the last people he mentions. Bet he shut up quickly afterwards to avoid making another slip up like that. " Roo paused for a moment, and took a deep breath, once again regretting letting himself get longwinded. "So," replied one of the DCT men, as the Quartet of Eloise, Ethanol, Abigail and Veronica clenched their paddles again, "you're part of this Dog Pile too? Looks like you'll have to come with us downtown too." Roo gulped, and then said, "Really, do you need to take *all* of us downtown? When you think about it, Veronica IS the captain, so she really is responsible for everything that goes on her *own* ship. . ." Roo, who is beginning to suspect that the reason that Elkins gave this ship to Veronica is because she didn't want to have to handle the sort of fighting that has erupted on board. From smellee17 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 18 07:24:03 2002 From: smellee17 at hotmail.com (smellee17) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 07:24:03 -0000 Subject: Imperious Molly! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45514 Hello all- I am a little afraid to jump in on this topic, but here goes- What if Molly was the one responsible for the theorized missing Weasley child? First- A large gap in ages between Bill and Charlie and the rest of the family has been thought to indicate a missing, presumably dead, Weasley child. The Imperious Arthur theory says that Mr. Weasely is the one responsible, having been forced by the curse. Here is my slightly different spin. In the GOF, chapter nine, page 142 in American editions, Mr Weasley says "Just Picture coming home and finding the Dark Mark hovering over your house, and knowing what you are about to find inside...." Mr Weasley winced. " Everyones worst fear... the very worst.." Could be just me, but it sounds like he is speaking from personal experience. Now, for Arthur to be responsible for the attack on his family, he would have go home, commit the act, leave, be released from the curse, and then come home and see the dark mark. This doesnt make much sense. Why would a death eater put a ministry official under the imperious, make him kill his child, and the let him go? Even of Mr. Weasley was low-ranking at the time, he could become a more valuable asset as time progresses. It would make sense to keep him under the curse, no reason though to let him go. Why stike the Weasleys, anyway? If the DEs wanted to use Arthur, they would keep him under the curse. If to terrorize or get revenge, Molly is the better choice to target. Imperious Molly works a little better. Molly would be home, alone with only her small children, in an isolated house.A De could easily suprise her, put her under the curse, make her kill her child, and then leave. She is an easier target, if the purpose was only to terrorize. Then when Arthur comes home from a day of work, he will find the Dark Mark hovering over his house, like the quote above. BY the way, If it was Arthur, why would he be suprised when he goes home? He already knows what happened, even if he couldn't stop himself. He wouldn't need the Dark Mark to tell him what has happened. Well. no, he says "Knowing" what he will find. One last point- Ron seems to have extra difficulty with the imperious. It could come from Molly, as well as his father. Imperious Molly also works with the symmettry of Imperious! Arthur. Arthur "Would know that one" if it is the reason he lost a child, be it him or Molly who really was under the spell. Any thoughts? There is probably a flaw somewhere signed smellee From potter76 at libero.it Fri Oct 18 10:25:19 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:25:19 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Remember Cedric References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021014021952.00b7ce30@mail.iglou.com> Message-ID: <3DAFE18F.000001.19427@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 45515 Richelle wrote: Okay, I need help. Can someone clear this up for me? This comes from Dumbledore's end of year speech to the students in GoF: "Remember Cedric. Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory." Me: I've seen that many people share my view on this point. Dumbl's speech merely described someone who didn't deserve to die at such a young age ( as if anyone did! but that's another story), the bit about choice was entirely directed to his ' audience' to give them some 'concrete' example of evil, something they can relate to. Shaun put it very well in his post ( Hope you got some good news about you friends missing in Bali!): <> But I read something a little different in his use of 'easy' juxtaposed to right'. I believe that Evil's ( let's say) temptations are subtle. In real life you usually are not confronted with a dramatic choice like "murder or not?" "betray or not?", sometimes a quite harmless action is presented to you and you have to understand all it entails to make the right choice. LV could go to someone and ask nothing more than a glass of water, not a big deal, but it's at that point that they have to remember Cedric and hold on to one's principles and sense of what's good. I guess the example I chose is very bad, let's try this way: someone you know, a friend, may be up to no good and tells you not to say that you saw him/ her in a particular place doing something as harmless as having a coup of coffee. Nothing dramatic, but what if that bit of info would implicate your friend in a crime? Or just mean that said friend is cheating on his/her partner? What is 'easy' and what is 'right' in this case? To keep one's mouth shut is definitely easy, while to spill the beans is, on one hand, to do the right thing but, on the other, to betray your friend. This is the kind of choice that, I think, even in the fight against LV they will be most likely confronted with. Only a few characters seem to be inclined towards evil from the beginning and their choice seems already made a choice that concerns the principles that direct their actions. The others will rather have to understand which action works for the good cause and which doesn't. And this is not easy at all, we must not forget the alluring quality of evil, which can make look bad things in a not-so-very-bad light and another aspect of the question was caught by Shannon: <> that's my 2 cents. And now something completely unrelated. But I'm a curious girl. Grey Wolf wrote: <> That rule sounds kind of familiar even though I thought it run rather " 'm' can go almost anywhere ( there's no 'mt'), while 'n' *can't* go before 'p' and 'b' ". So the question is: what is your language? I'd say a romanic one, but my study of linguistics dates from a few years ago and my memories are kind of unreliable at this point! R. From sailor_moirae at hotmail.com Fri Oct 18 14:44:16 2002 From: sailor_moirae at hotmail.com (sailor_moirae) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:44:16 -0000 Subject: There are no missing Weasley children theory - but some funny things In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45516 I must agree with both Christopher and Debbie. It's also very likely that the Weasleys only wanted Bill and Charlie. And Percy was an accident. Since there's such a large gap (9-10 years) between the children, they decided to have another so Percy wouldn't be alone. But, they got the twins: They have eachother. They then had Ron but by then, Percy was already three years old. Too old some might think. Since the twins had eachother, they had another and got Ginny. Thus, Bill and Charlie have eachother. Ron and Ginny have eachother and the twins have eachother. And Percy has no one (poor Percy) and that contributes to his character develepement. ~Moirae From ronib at mindspring.com Fri Oct 18 15:27:46 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:27:46 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Operative!Arthur Attacks Auror!Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45517 "I just don't believe this," Veronica muttered to herself as she was hauled off the Trimaran by the Hit Wizards. "I tell you, I didn't do it." "That's what they all say!" said the bald burly guy, Veronica mentally referred to him as Wally. "I tell you, she's PARANOID, Cindy is," Veronica protested. "Save it 'til we get to the station," replied the agent. "What about my Miranda rights?" Veronica demanded as he pushed her into the waiting carriage. "These are BRITISH books," he replied with a laugh. **** Several agonizing hours later, Veronica found herself in an interogation room being hounded by the two agents. "So you say, you had no part is attacking Cindy and Operative!Arthur?" asked the tall, lanky agent. "I didn't," Veronica agreed. "Then why were you holding that Parallelism Paddle when we came aboard?" Wally demanded. Veronica flinched, slightly, but then grinned sweetly. "Yes, I did have that didn't I? But I have a perfectly wonderful explanation. You see, Cindy had attacked the most powerful can(n)on aboard the Imperius!Arthur, so I was merely trying to defend the ship. Otherwise, she would have sunk us all in her efforts to strengthen her case for Operative!Arthur." "So, you are claiming that you were acting in self-defense?" Wally asked her with an expression of disbelief. "Exactly!" Veronica argued. "Honestly, I have nothing against Operative!Arthur. My only *real* crime is letting the Auror!Arthur and Operative!Author folks take cabins too close to each other on the ship!" "You have them both on the same ship?" demanded tall and lanky. Veronica decided to name him Slim. "Are you a mad woman?" he further questioned. "Well, yes," she answered. "That seems to be the consensus. It was Elkins after all who *gave* me the boat to watch over." Slim and Wally swapped understanding looks as if to say, "Oh, no wonder!" "But were you beating Cindy with the Parallism Paddle?" "I was trying to, yes," Veronica admitted. "I was trying to show that it is only important that Moody called on Ron to name the Imperius curse *IF* Arthur had been a victim of it!" "What if he just used it?" demanded Slim. "Aaaggghhh!" Veronica screamed. "Where is my paddle? Are you even listening to me?" "Besides as Ethanol pointed out--before you so rudely interupted her. Arthur's secretiveness is the result of shame and guilt--a point I tried to make before but not nearly as well as she did. Arthur is very Dobby-esque in that respect." Veronica saw Slim and Wally both reaching for flags. "Wait!" she protested. "Think about it. In GoF (Mayhem at the Ministry), Arthur is working all the time because of the trouble at the QWC. He goes in early, stays late, and works weekends. He even changes and heads to work right after they all return from the QWC. Why? He says he made things worse, and he needs to go help. See, he feels guilty, and so he is punishing himself, but he really has nothing to feel guilty for." "Of course he does. Look at all the trouble that resulted from his comments after the Dark Mark appeared. Even Percy admits he should have kept quiet," Wally protested. "Did you really read what he said, or are you just trusting Weatherby . . . I mean Percy?" Veronica demanded. "Accio Goblet of Fire -- Us Edition, Hardback!" ------------------------------------------------------------- But when they reached the edge of the wood, their progress was impeded. A large crowd of frightened-looking witches and wizards was congregated there, and when they saw Mr. Weasley coming toward them, many of them surged forward. "What's going on in there?" "Who conjured it?" "Arthur -- it's not--HIM?" "Of course its not Him," said Mr. Weasley impatiently."We don't know who it was; it looks like they Disapparated. Now excuse me, please, I want to get to bed." ------------------------------------------------------------- "He says nothing inflamatory, nothing inappropriate. So why is he beating himself up?" Veronica demanded. "I thought the purpose of that was to show how Rita Skeeter blows everything out of proportion," Wally pointed out. "It does," Veronica agreed, "but since when do the passages only have *one* meaning? Scabbers was only suppose to be an illustration of the Weasley family finances until we learned he was Peter." "So Arthur feels guilty?" Slim demanded. "Yes, it's a character illustration," Veronica explained. "Arthur feels like he did something wrong, so he punishes himself. This time he made himself work all the time. Last time, after he did something terrible under the Imperius curse, he took a small, unimportant position in Muggle Artifacts, forfeiting carreer advancement and further financial security for his family." "Wait!" demanded Wally. "You are practically admitting that Arthur is more important than he seems. I mean, why would someone in Muggle Artifacts have needed to spend so much time at work after the incident at the QWC? Or what was he before he was Imperio'd? You imply that he was maybe more important . . . ." "Exactly!" Veronica cried. "I have no problem whatsoever with Auror!Arthur or Operative!Arthur. For the sake of peace (and because Elkins pressured me), I'll even listen to Filicide!Arthur. I *agree* that Arthur is more than he seems, but I don't know which is right, and as the captain of the Imperius!Arthur, it would not be right for me to take sides." "I've already said that there is room for them all on the Imperius!Arthur, if they like the idea that the DEs used Arthur to advance their evil schemes. I just can't have them blowing holes in the Imperius!Arthur as they're fighting each other." "So you aren't attacking Operative!Arthur?" Slim asked. "No," veronica replied quietly. "Now can I please go? I'm expecting a visit from some Seventh Son advocates, and the ship's really a mess after that last scuffle." Wally made a face, but answered, "Alright, you can go, but I don't want to hear any more about you picking on Cindy!" "She started it with her Imperius!Arthur is *unnecessary*!" Veronica retorted, but Wally was looking stern. "Fine. I'll just go home and have a drink (Pina Coladas are not nearly strong enough for the day I'm having!), and then I'll have a talk with Eileen. She and her Marines are going to have to keep a closer eye on that Cindy!" "You'd think she *wanted* to be tossed overboard!" ************ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% 20Files/hypotheticalley.htm and Inish Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? > method=reportRows&tbl=13 From ronib at mindspring.com Fri Oct 18 16:02:47 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 16:02:47 -0000 Subject: Imperious Molly! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45518 This darn thing ate my response, so I'll try again. It this appears twice, I apologize! smellee wrote: Here is my slightly different spin. In the GOF, chapter nine, page 142 in American editions, Mr Weasley says "Just Picture coming home and finding the Dark Mark hovering over your house, and knowing what you are about to find inside...." Mr Weasley winced. " Everyones worst fear... the very worst.." Could be just me, but it sounds like he is speaking from personal experience. Now, for Arthur to be responsible for the attack on his family, he would have go home, commit the act, leave, be released from the curse, and then come home and see the dark mark. This doesnt make much sense. BY the way, If it was Arthur, why would he be suprised when he goes home? He already knows what happened, even if he couldn't stop himself. He wouldn't need the Dark Mark to tell him what has happened. Well. no, he says "Knowing" what he will find. Veronica replies: YOu make some excellent points, but I have to disagree with some of your generalizations. Imperius!Arthur is a very complex theory, and I think that perhaps you are confusing it with Filicide!Arthur. YOu see, there are numerous catories within the Imperius!Arthur theory. The first, as you pointed out, the Filicide!Arthurs, believe that Arthur, while under the control of the Imperius curse, killed the *theoretical* missing child. Others believe that Arthur was under the Imperius curse at some time, but was not responsible for killing the missing child, but that a Death Eater or Voldemort did it. There are any number of possible reasons why it happened. My personal favorite is that Arthur eventually freed himself of the Curse, and the angry Death Eater took revenge by killing one of his children. Regardless of the reason for the death, this theory does take care of some of the issues you raised. Arthur would have the first-hand experience with the Dark Mark. He would have come home from work to find that one of his children had been killed, and you don't have to ask the questions you mentioned (How did he not remember doing it, and why was he surprised if he was responsible?) There are even some folks who like the Imperius!Arthur theory who do not subscribe to the missing child idea at all, much less that Arthur did it. So, in it's most natural form, the Imperius Arthur theory does not hold Arthur responsible for killing one of his child; however, it doesn't rule the idea out, either. It merely suggests that at some point in the first "war" against Voldemort, Arthur was Imperio'd and used, unwillingly, as a Pawn for the dark lord. Hope that helps, Veronica From tracey.burkhardt at gnb.ca Fri Oct 18 16:04:17 2002 From: tracey.burkhardt at gnb.ca (iwishiwerehermione) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 16:04:17 -0000 Subject: Missing Weasley Children - Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45519 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "sailor_moirae" wrote: > > Athena: > > >The strength to me is the large gap between Charlie and Percy > > > I'm new to HP4GU, can someone point me to the cannon that proves Charlie is so much older than Percy? In the Chamber of Secrets (which I'm reading again in preparation for the movie release), when Harry rescues Ginny, she goes on and on about how she will be expelled from Hogwarts and how she has been looking forward to being a Hogwart's student since Bill was accepted. (I'm at work without my copy of the book, sorry for the lack of direct quote). In the Chamber of Secrets, Ginny is a first year student and therefore 11 years old. Most people, unless the WW is exceptional in this regard, don't remember much before they're five or so years old. This means that if she were old enough to remember when Bill was accepted at age 11, there's likely at most 6-7 years between them. It would then follow that Charlie, Percy, Fred and George, Ron and Ginny would be born closely together with very little time between them. From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 18 16:24:22 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 16:24:22 -0000 Subject: TBAY- Cindy Crouch and the Pensieve Four (Re: TBAY: Operative!Arthur Attacks) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45520 The Department of Creative Theorizing vs. Veronica, Abigail, Ethanol, and Eileen. Prosecutor: Captain Cindy "The evidence against these four is clear," said Cindy. "I've already covered their dog-piling, but I think we still need to adress parallelism before we go to a recess. "PARALLELISM IS NOT CANON!" she shouts, her eyes bulging. The defendants and half the people in the courtroom gasp. "Objection!" cries Veronica. "I didn't mean that," Cindy said quickly. "I don't know what got into me there. *Of course* something is canon if Elkins says it is."Cindy shook her head sharply. "I must still be in shock or something to say such a thing. Still.... Objection Overruled!" "Why?" shrieks Veronica. "This is justice TBAY-style, not that soft sappy American variety. And, yes, I am going to attack Elkins' parallelism. She's an evil Overlord, after all, and have I not shown countless times that I detest the subversive arts and all those who practice them?" *Oh, that's why she's been seen sailing a vessel called Toadkeeper* thinks Eileen. *Quite a hypocrite Captain Cindy is.* Eileen, though, is hoping that Cindy will let her off. After all, Eileen is a (comparatively) loyal crew member of the BIG BANG Destroyer. And she believes in Bloody Ambushes. And thinks Rookwood is cool. Plus, they both dislike Draco Malfoy. And Eileen's expressed measured supporter for Operative!Arthur. There is no way that Cindy won't try to get her off. "Let's look at the evidence," says Cindy coldly. "Eileen said. >"Nah, I'm not buying it. Crouch Jr. would have blown > his cover big-time if it got out that Moody was exposing Ministry > operatives to a bunch of 14 year old students. Twisted he was, but > stupid he was not." "Uh, gee. Fake Moody uses Imperius on students right there in the classroom in front of God and everyone over Hermione's objections, and you think he is the least bit worried about blowing his cover?" "Before God? No," says Eileen timidly. "Answer the question," says Cindy sharply. "Do you really believe, Cap'n Cindy Ma'am, that Dumbledore didn't authorize Moody to use Imperius on the students?" "Why would Dumbledore do that?" asks Cindy. "For the reasons Crouch Jr. gives in the text. I think it's obvious that Crouch Jr. isn't risking his position by doing things Dumbledore is totally against. The Ministry might object a little, but Dumbledore's in control of that relationship. He gets away with his educational methods. If, however, Crouch Jr. had exposed a top-secret operative, I think there would have been hell to pay. I'm not going to take an Operative!Arthur that Crouch Jr. feels comfortable chatting to the class about." "What?!?" Cindy cried. "Where exactly in canon does Crouch Jr. feel comfortable chatting to the class about Operative!Arthur? None of the kids works out this parallelism at all. They never put the parallelism thing together." "But Captain, I was only responding to your saying you had a new hidden meaning to the chapter. You said Crouch Jr. was referring to Operative!Arthur! I didn't." "Don't even try to look innocent," says Cindy coldly. "You attacked me viciously with that Parallelism paddle." "I did not. I only asked you for your opinion. I said "Find me another Crouch Jr. line in the book where there isn't something else going on. Why would he suddenly be so sincere in acknowledging Ron Weasley's question, especially since in that scene he is already engaged in angling for Harry's and Neville's reactions. If he isn't referring to Imperio'ed!Arthur, what is he talking about?" I wasn't attacking you. I was quite sure you'd have answer for me, Cap'n. And C-C-Cap'n, I l-l-liked your attacks on Auror!Arthur. I k-k-quite agreed with them." Cindy ignores her. "Anything else before we go to a recess?" "Yes," Ethanol said. "I must make a confession. I'm an ambassador from Elkins." "You're asserting *diplomatic immunity* now?" Cindy scowled. "Oh, this is too much!" "Yep," Ethanol replied. "Elkins sent me here on a mission to salvage Filicide!Arthur. We say Auror!Arthur was imperioed, causing directly or (more likely) indirectly Missing Weasley child's death. That would be more guilt and shame than anyone can ask for." "You know what you and Elkins have there, Ethanol?" Cindy asked patiently. Ethanal stood frozen, her gaze fixed on Cindy. "You have a theory that is *too* Bangy. I never thought I'd hear myself say that, but it is true. That Filicide!Arthur theory is Way Over The Top. It's not just Bangy in the normal sense of the word ?- it's like a Neutron Bomb of Creative Theorizing. You wanna know why? Because if Arthur killed his son, Imperius or no Imperius, he wouldn't behave the way he does when the Dark Mark is discussed. Any parent who has suffered the death of a child for any reason is *devastated.* And if the parent somehow *killed* the child, that parent wouldn't be able to function very well when the subject comes up, even 10 years later. Yet look at Arthur's discussion of the Dark Mark: 'Mr. Weasley winced.' That's it. Sorry, but that reaction just isn't convincing enough for someone who killed his own child." "You're right!" shrieks Eileen. "Absolutely right. There's no way Arthur Weasley killed his son. It's just way too Bangy!" "I didn't ask your opinion," says Cindy cooly. "So, yeah. We can toss a memory charm into the cargo hold of Imperius!Arthur to fix that up, but I don't see how the thing can stay afloat with all of this *baggage* it requires. Oh, Imperius!Arthur does not travel light, does he? Not at all!" "Mine does," says Eileen. "I don't subscribe to Seventh Son or Filicide." "Find me something for Arthur to have done then," says Cindy with a sneer. "Really, Imperio'ed Arthur is heading for the SCOW. If Arthur was under Imperius, he had to do something connected with the plot. Something big. Your non-Filicide version has nothing to do." "I know," sobs Eileen. "But you're not going to hold that against me, are you? Are you?" "We will go to recess," says Cindy ignoring Eileen's weeping. "In an hour, we will return and hear the verdict of the jury." An hour later: -------------------- The door in the corner opened yet again. Six Dementors entered this time, flanking a group of four people. Stoned!Harry saw the people in the crowd turn to look up at Captain Cindy. A few of them whispered to each other. The Dementors placed each of the four people in the four chairs with chained arms which now stood on the dungeon floor. There was a woman who stared blankly up at Cindy, a more nervous-looking woman, whose eyes were darting around the ground, a woman with thick, shining hair,who was sitting in the chained chair as if it was a throne, and a girl in her late teens, who looked nothing short of petrified. She was shivering, her curly, maple sugar coloured hair all over her face, her freckled skin milk-white. Avery sitting beside Cindy began to rock backwards and forwards in his seat, whimpering into his handkerchief. Cindy stood up. She looked down upon the four in front of her, and there was pure hatred in her face. "You have been brought here before the Council of TBAY Law," she said clearly. "so that we may pass judgement on you, for a crime so heinous -' "Captain," said the girl with the maple sugar-coloured hair. "Captain... please..." "-that we have rarely heard the like of it within this court," said Cindy, speaking more loudly, drowing out Eileen's voice. "We have heard the evidence against you. The four of you stand accused of ambushing a theorizer - myself, to speak plainly - and then dogpiling her, believing her to be suceptible to your arguments through overwhelming force." "Captain, I didn't!" shrieked the girl in chains below. "I didn't. I swear it, Captain, don't send me back to the Dementors -" "You are further accused," bellowed Captain Cindy, "of using dishonest and convoluted arguments to advanced Imperio'ed!Arthur, when I would not budge from my position. You planned to restore Elkins to power, and to resume the lives of violence you presumably led while she was strong. I now ask the jury -" "Avery!" screamed the girl below, and the wizard beside Cindy began to sob, rocking backwards and forwards. "Avery, stop her. Avery, I didn't do it. It wasn't me!" "I now ask the jury," shouted Cindy, "to raise their hands if they believe, as I do, that these crimes deserve a life sentence in Azkaban." In unison, the witches and wizards along the right-hand side of the dungeon raised their hands. The crowd along the walls began to clap, their faces full of savage triumph. The girl began to scream. "No! Avery, no! I didn't do it. I didn't do it. I didn't know! Don't send me there, don't let her!" The Dementors were gliding back into the room. The girl's three companions rose quietly from their seats: the woman named Veronica looked up at Cindy and called, "Elkins will rise again, Cindy! Throw us into Azkaban, we will wait! She will rise again and will come for us, she will reward us beyond any of her other supporters! We alone were faithful to Imperio'ed Arthur! We alone tried to defend her!" But the girl was trying to fight the Dementors off, even though Stoned!Harry could see their cold, draining power starting to affect her. The crowd were jeering, some of them on their feet, as the woman swept out of the dungeon, and the girl continued to struggle. "I'm your supporter! I like Operative!Arthur!" she screamed up at Cindy. "I'm your supporter!" "You are no supporter of mine!" bellowed Captain Cindy, her eyes bulging suddenly. "I have no supporters!" Avery gave a great gasp, and slumped in his seat. He had fainted. Cindy appeared not to have noticed. "Take them away!" Cindy roared at the Dementors, spit flying from her mouth. "Take them away and may they rot there!" "Captain, Captain, I wasn't involved! No! No! Captain, please!" ---------------------------------------- For further explanation of the acronyms and theories in this post, visit Hypothetic Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hypotheticalley.htm and Inish Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=13 From crussell at arkansas.net Fri Oct 18 18:04:21 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 18:04:21 -0000 Subject: Whats so special about Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45521 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > > And also, the goals of Voldemort all surrounded around him. Live > forever. Rule Europe then the world. Can't continue with the beliefs of the party when the center falls out. > So basically, old Voldie was not interesting in grooming a successor > who could conceivably grow to such prominence in the group that they > might take over. Not good for the old ego. Better to keep the men > (and woman) in subordinate roles. > And besides, Voldie wants to live forever. > Why would he need a successor? > Absolutely. One thought I want to add to this-well, maybe it's more like a question. Were the Death Eaters around before Voldemort began his rise to power or was the organization formed inclusively by him and for him? IMO, if the latter were true, than once he was incacipated-as it were- why should the DE's continue? Any opinions out there on the DE's formation date? Please fill me in. bugaloo37 From cindysphynx at comcast.net Fri Oct 18 18:29:19 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 18:29:19 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Operative!Arthur Attacks Auror!Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45522 "ALL RISE!!!" Dicentra cried. The crowd in the packed courtroom snapped to its feet, all eyes on the door to the judge's chamber. Judge Elkins trudged to the bench, sank into her black leather chair, and removed her gavel from its shiny wooden case. "You may be seated," Elkins said evenly. "What do we have on the calendar for today?" "People vs. Ethanol, Abigail and Eileen, your honor," Dicentra said. "There was some kind of weird Pensive-style kangaroo court proceeding with dementors and lots of yelling a while back, but Captain Cindy granted them all this new trial. She's very fair and accommodating that way. Not only that, Cindy has asked that the charges be reduced to one count of Conspiracy to Dog Pile with Acronym Envy." Elkins turned to Eloise. "Madam prosecutor, what about Veronica?" Eloise cleared her throat. "I dismissed the charges against Veronica. Her argument that she had not taken sides because she is the Captain of Imperius!Arthur was quite compelling." "Very well," Elkins said. "And who is counsel for the defendants?" "G'day, your honor. Roo here." "Excellent. Roo, call your next witness." "The defendants would like to call Captain Cindy to the stand for further cross-examination." The rear door to the courtroom banged open. Captain Cindy strode purposefully down the center aisle. She paused contemptuously near the defense table, where Ethanol, Abigail and Eileen quickly averted their eyes, before taking her seat in the witness box. Dicentra raised her right hand. "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you JKR?" "More or less." Roo gathered several feet of parchment* and stood before the podium. "Captain Cindy, we have heard much eyewitness testimony about the Dog Pile you endured. There's no question that there was in fact a Dog Pile. The issue now is whether the Dog Pile was *justified.*" Cindy stared at Roo blankly. "Justified?" Elkins repeated. "How could it be justified?" "Well," Roo explained, "Captain Cindy has posted several times on Imperius!Arthur and Operative!Arthur, but *never once* has she addressed the Holy Trinity that is Moody's Unforgivables class. She has said nothing to refute the core argument supporting Imperius! Arthur and refuting Operative!Arthur ? *Parallelism.* Again and again, the defendants have raised that issue, and somehow Cindy ducked it each time. I submit that Captain Cindy *has* no response to the Holy Trinity, and the attack on her was completely and totally *justified*!" The crowd in the courtroom murmured in hushed tones. Elkins smacked her gavel smartly onto the wooden bench. "Quiet!" she ordered. "I want to hear this, and I'll dismiss this case if I don't hear a good answer to that question." "I beg your pardon?" Cindy said, adjusting the collar of her uniform, which suddenly felt tight at the throat. "I don't recall any, uh . . . Holy Trinity." "Oh, really now? Well, let me refresh your recollection, then. Take a look at Exhibit A, Message 45483:" ******** Captain Veronica on the other hand has begun to laugh hysterically. "But that's not parallel," Veronica protested. "The whole purpose of that can(n)on on board the Imperius!Arthur is that parallelism. Neville's parents were tortured with Crusiatus; Harry's parents were killed with AK. If Arthur merely *used* Imperius, or investigated those who claimed to have been controlled by the Imperius curse, it's no longer parallel!" "She has you there," says Eileen. "Parallel, schmarallel," says Cindy. "Why do I need a parallel? Elkins made up the parallel thing in the first place." "For very good reasons," says Eileen. "Find me another Crouch Jr. line in the book where there isn't something else going on. Why would he suddenly be so sincere in acknowledging Ron Weasley's question, especially since in that scene he is already engaged in angling for Harry's and Neville's reactions. If he isn't referring to Imperio'ed!Arthur, what is he talking about? You're telling me Barty thought it was important to bring up the fact Arthur was once authorized to utilize Imperius... Why?" ************** "Now do you remember?" Roo sneered. "As a matter of fact, I do. Yes, that rings a bell. "Parallelism." "Holy Trinity." Uh-huh. That's what my attackers were shouting while they were *beating me senseless!* They're saying that Crouch Jr.'s Unforgivables lesson is very important. Crouch Jr. targets Neville with the demonstration of the Cruciatus Curse because Neville's family has been victimized by the Cruciatus Curse. Crouch Jr. targets Harry with the Avada Kedavra Curse because Harry's family has been victimized by Avada Kedavra. So, the Imperius!Arthur attackers reason, Crouch Jr. targets Ron, which means that Arthur must have been placed under the Imperius Curse." "So you admit it!" cried Roo. "Well, sort of. But Operative!Arthur can explain it. Let's look at that passage in GoF, 'The Unforgivables'": *********** "Er," said Ron tentatively, "my dad told me about one . . . . Is it called the Imperius Curse, or something?" "Ah, yes," said Moody appreciatively. "Your father *would* know that one. Gave the Ministry a lot of trouble at one time, the Imperius Curse." ************ "You see," Cindy said, "I think the Imperius!Arthur people have the whole parallelism thing all wrong. And the key can be found in CoS. Remember that scene where Arthur and Lucius Malfoy brawl? I have never really liked that scene. I can't imagine two grown wizards resorting to a fist fight like that, for one thing. But what really bugs me about that scene is that Arthur, a grown man, overreacts so badly to what appear to be few simple schoolboy taunts. Check out Lucius' lines in 'At Flourish and Blotts:'" *********** "Busy time at the Ministry, I hear," said Mr. Malfoy. "All those raids . . . I hope they're paying you overtime?" "Obviously not," Mr. Malfoy said. "Dear me, what's the use of being a disgrace to the name of wizard if they don't even pay you well for it?" "The company you keep, Weasley . . . and I thought your family could sink no lower ?" ************* "And that's when Arthur explodes!" Cindy said. "Right after Lucius mentions Arthur's *family!* Arthur maintains his composure through Lucius' taunting about his job, his hours and his pay, even tolerating being called a 'disgrace to the name of wizard.' But what really makes Arthur lose it? Mention of his family! "Operative!Arthur explains that in a way that Imperius!Arthur cannot. Operative!Arthur says that DEs killed Seventh Son, and Arthur thinks Lucius had something to do with it. Well, how about this for a Monster Bang? I submit to you that *Lucius* was involved in the murder of Seventh Son and escaped punishment by claiming to be under the Imperius Curse!" There were audible gasps of horror from the crowd. One woman grabbed her handbag and raced from the courtroom, looking physically ill. Elkins banged her gavel, rising slightly from her seat to address the crowd. "*Repent* or I will clear this courtroom!" she bellowed. "Objection!" cried Roo. "There's no canon for that at all! I demand that the witness be cautioned with a Yellow Flag!" "Oh, I've got canon for that idea," Cindy said. "We know Lucius harbors hostility toward the Weasleys, to the point of giving Ginny a cursed diary when he logically should have given it to Harry. We know that Lucius is a DE who escaped prosecution by claiming he was acting under the Imperius Curse. We know that Ginny almost died because of Lucius' actions and that when Mr. Weasley learned what happened at the end of CoS, he was 'looking deeply shaken.' That suggests to me that this is much more than a garden-variety family feud between the Malfoys and the Weasleys based on a few taunts. Oh, Arthur just knows deep down in his bones that Lucius was never under the Imperius Curse when he played some role in the death of Seventh Son. It explains Arthur's rage, I tell ya. It all fits! "So. How do I respond to the Holy Trinity Parallelism accusation. then? Neville was affected by Cruciatus. Harry was affected by AK. And Operative!Arthur says that Ron was affected by Imperius ?- and the instrument of that victimization was Lucius Malfoy who claimed to be acting under the Imperius Curse. *Now* Moody's statement that Arthur would be familiar with Imperius and it gave MoM a lot of trouble makes perfect sense, does it not?" "Well, maybe so, maybe so," allowed Roo. "But you still haven't made a convincing case for Acronym Envy. And without that, the defendants are going to walk." "What?" Cindy demanded. "Are you telling me my last acronym wasn't good enough to demonstrate that the defendants acted with Envy aforethought? I mean, that was one heck of an acronym for someone who doesn't do acronyms at all: CLOAKANDDAGGERARTHUR [Covert Liaison Operative Arthur is the Key to Assured Nerve-racking Destruction of Diabolical Axis, with Global Governance and Equilibrium at Risk, from the Ascension of Ruthless Terrorists with Homicidal, Unspeakable Resolve]." "Not even close to Envy-worthy, right, your honor?" Roo asked. "He's got a point, Cindy," said Elkins quietly. "We're talking *Special Circumstances* here. You'll need a better acronym than that." "Fine." Shaking her head slowly, Cindy heaved an exasperated sigh, rose to her feet and cleared her throat significantly: "I GOT YOUR PARALLELISM RIGHT HERE, MISTER: [Initially, G-men Opted to Tolerate Yeomen Overlords Until Rogues Purged Arthur's Relations. Afterwards, a Legendary Lust for Equanimity Leaves him Irresolute, Saddened and Miserable. Realizing Imperius Gives Hostile Transgressors a Handy Excuse, Revenge Energizes Many Instances of Stalwart Tenacity against the Evil Regime]." With that, Cindy left the witness box and walked slowly from the courtroom, the door banging shut behind her. The courtroom was completely silent. *********** Cindy ************ *Messages 45290, 45320, 45330, 45341, 45377, 45380, 45386, 45423, 45430, 45481, 45483, 45494, 45507, 45513, 45517. From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 18:37:23 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 18:37:23 -0000 Subject: Missing Weasley Children - Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45523 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "iwishiwerehermione" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "sailor_moirae" wrote: > > > Athena: > > > >The strength to me is the large gap between Charlie and Percy > > > > > > I'm new to HP4GU, can someone point me to the cannon that proves > Charlie is so much older than Percy? Ok here it goes... Welcome to maths for HPFGU's... In POA it's stated that they haven't won the Quiditch cup for 7 years it is also quoted (in either POA or PS can't remember which) that they haven't won a the cup since Charlie was Seeker ... so here comes the maths.. In POA Ron has already been at hogwarts for 2 years so 7-2 =5 So thats 5 years between Charlie leaving Hogwarts and Ron starting Hogwarts so add on the severn years you spend at Hogwarts 7 +5 =12 so you get 12 years between Charlie startibng at Hogwarts and Ron starting at Hogwarts. Thats 12 years between Charlie and Ron. Now the twins are 2school years above Ron and Percy is 2 school years above the twins so thats roughly 4 years between Percy and Ron so: 12- 4 = 8 years between Charlie and Percy (roughly could be nearer 7 or 9 as I'm using schools years) Incidently the lexicon has it that Charlie was born in 1967 and Percy was born in 1976 so there could be a maximun of 9 years between them. So there you go thats how you get the age gap between Charlie and Percy. Hope that I haven't a) totally confused anyone and/or b) made any obvious mistakes :-) Michelle From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Oct 18 18:37:45 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 18:37:45 -0000 Subject: Whats so special about Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45524 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: ...edited... > > Why could someone else not become the leader? Why was Voldemort so important that the movement practically fell apart after his fall? > > Chris boy_mn replies: Let's not think about Voldemort for the moment. Let's talk about Dudley. Dudley being the biggest and stupidest, and by playground standards the most powerful of all his friends is the leader of his little gang of play ground bullies. Of course, there is Dudley's first lieutenant, Piers Polkiss ... "a scrawny boy with a face like a rat. He was usually the one who held people's arms behind their backs while Dudley hit them." (PS/SS US Ed. Hard Pg 23). How many people do you think the rat-faced Piers will bull if he doesn't have Dudley's size and power to back him up? Ever noticed how bullies run in packs? The bully needs his wolf pack of friends to back him up in case he accidently stumbles accross a nerd or a geek who decides to defend himself. The wolf back needs the bully because they are too big of cowards to do anything on thier own. Now back to Voldemort and his wolf... eeerr... Death Eater pack. As long as they pack has Voldemort substantial power and ruthlessness to back them up, they are ready an willing to do anything. But without that power to protect their butt, they aren't quite as brave. With Voldemort gone, why risk getting into trouble? The Lucius Malfoy is already rich and powerful, so without Voldemort's promise of extreme wealth and power, and probably a chance at immortality, he has a lot to lose. Why risk it? Why try to be the biggest bully, when you can just be an intimidating arrogant horses rearend, and still be substantually wealth? The Death Eater who takes over, first puts himself in a position where he can no longer claim bewitchment. He can no longer say 'Oops, I made a mistake; sorry." He is fully and totally commited with no way of backing out. Plus, if Voldemort does come back, he is probably not going to be too happy that someone tried to take over his spot. Just some thougths. bboy_mn From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 18 21:07:25 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 21:07:25 -0000 Subject: Seven Weasley Children In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45525 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "mitchbailey82" wrote: > one of the reasons some people have a lot of children (especially > when all of the older children are of one gender i.e. all girls or > all boys) is because they want a child of the gender that they don't > have, i.e. they have Son's but want a daughter so therefore keep > having children until they get the girl. > So... (this is completely theoretical) Arthur and Molly have Bill, > Charlie and then the *missing girl*, they then decide they have all > the children they want/need but then a year or two later they lose > the daughter (for whatever reason some have suggested the Imperius! > Arthur killed her although I don't subscribe to that idea) now after > a while they decide that they would like another child -preferably a > girl, but Percy's a boy and so they try again, the Twins are boys to > and so is Ron and then Ginny comes along and so they have a daughter > and don't need/want anymore children. I've heard this before and it makes me want to laugh very, very hard. Do you know these families where they keep on having boys b/c they want a girl eventually? Coming from a large family myself (One girl and seven boys), I've heard that sort of thinking, but it always comes from the people who don't have the seven or eight kids. "Oh, you're still trying for a girl?" Yeah, like people really would do that in real life... Honestly. In the past, people might try for a boy (as in Pride and Prejudice), but those were different circumstances. People have large families these days b/c they want large families. End of story. I don't get this urge to look for a more "sensible" reason for the existence of Bill, Charlie, Percy, Fred, George, Ron, and Ginny. Eileen From speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 18 21:13:14 2002 From: speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com (r f) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 21:13:14 +0000 Subject: The Azkaban Effect On Hardened Criminals Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45526 Here's something that's always bothered me a little bit about Azkaban and the WW use of Dementors: The Dementors feed on joy and other good emotions, leaving their victim paralyzed by depression. What if an incarcerated person has little or no emotional content that the Dementors can feed on? For example, Sirius kept himself sane for twelve years by staying angry and focusing on his innocence. Once he saw Pettigrew's photograph in the paper, he focused on revenge. Not happy thoughts... If, for instance, Snape were imprisoned, I'm not sure there would be much for the Dementors to feed on in the first place. Besides, he's shown himself to be extremely capable of focusing on old grudges, injuries and vengeance. Not a happy person... SO, inmates like the LeStranges (who, as far as we know at the end of GoF, are still alive) may also have found ways to remain sane in Azkaban. I'm very much afraid that they will come out far more evil than when they went in. Since Sirius could stay alive and sane for twelve years in Azkaban, others can too. This could easily lead to a hardened WW criminal element, especially if wizards and witches are incarcerated for short periods of time (say 1 to 5 years instead of life) for theft, sale of class A magical goods or assault. While the LeStranges will be bad enough, I wonder about the rest of the inmates that will be released when Voldemort gains the support of the Dementors and breaks open the prison. I foresee vigilantes, mob rule and general pandemonium. Is anyone else worried? Frankie _________________________________________________________________ Broadband?Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From potter76 at libero.it Fri Oct 18 21:13:50 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 23:13:50 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Second Daugther Theory References: <4974301325.20021017131137@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3DB0798E.000003.42383@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 45527 Dave: Your idea of Mr. and Mrs. Weasley continuing to have children until they have a girl reminds me a bit of _Pride and Prejudice_... In which, The Bennett family's estate, Longbourn, is "entailed in default of heirs male on a distant relation". In other words, some male-chauvanist ancestor of Mr. Bennett stipulated in his will that inhertitence of Longbourn estate could only pass through *male* heirs, and the Bennetts, despite their best and most valient efforts (especially considering that there's no real sexual passion between them), have all female children. So therefore the estate on Mr. B.'s decease will go to their nearest male relative, his distant cousin, Mr. Collins, and the surviving family will be left out in the cold, unless the two oldest and most sensible of the daughters are so fortunate as to fall in love and marry rich men, which is what in fact happens. :) Me: I can't believe that the task to make things clear about the Bennett's estate is left to me with so many Brits and a few Austen's lovers out there!! There's no male-chauvinist ancestor but a whole male-chauvinist society involved. Till I can't remember when in the late 19th century (if not early 20th) females could not inherit from their family ( be it 'original' or formed with marriage), that said the law and you could do nothing about it; you see that in 'Wuthering Heights' too, Heathcliff gets both Wuthering Heights and Trushcross Grange because he married Isabella Linton, who brought him TG, and had his son marry Cathy, who brought WH. It's the husband who gets the property, you would just 'bring' it to him. Something more on topic now. It's nothing very strange to keep making kids till you get the desired 'sex', but isn't it kind of sad? It's like thinking of children like object made to please you. I think that the Weasley as a couple who loves a big family and welcome every new 'addition' as a gift is more in keeping with the positive image that has been established for them . And now, something I've kept wondering since PS. How can they be so poor? By GoF they should be getting quite comfortable, 3 of their sons have a job and I guess that are now quite selfsufficient, what's more 2 of those sons haven t been living at home for years, even in Ps (it was already 6 years the Charlie had gone to Romania), so there are no 'food and lodging' expenses for them. They may not send money home to help the family but still it's not Arthur's salary that has to pay for all they need. Having 4 (and for 1 year, 5) kids at Hogwarts may be very expensive but still it strikes me that things seem never to get better. R. From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 18 21:33:02 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 21:33:02 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Some can(n)on for you Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45528 Pip!Squeak looks up from her intensive cataloguing and notices Pippin dancing around outside the Safe house. She appears to have one, very small cannon with her. "Look at that! " says Melody. "One of the wheels is hanging off! She's misquoted it!" Pipsqueak sighs deeply. This battle has got pretty vicious, she thinks. Especially in the middle of building the TBAY flood defences. However, it probably is time to get the can(n)on for the Safe House rolled out and placed for proper defence. ****************************************************************** Some Facts about references to: [1] Undercover Agents. I define these as people definitely confirmed in canon as having been acting `undercover' (pretending to be a person they are not, or adopting a persona they do not have) according to a plan by Voldemort, or Dumbledore. Note that Mrs Figg, who is assumed by 99% of the list to have been acting as Harry's undercover bodyguard, is not included ? she is not yet confirmed as Arabella Figg of the `old crowd'. Until she is so confirmed, Dumbledore has no *confirmed* undercover agents; speculate as we may. Equally, Lucius Malfoy, is not confirmed as acting for Voldemort ? in fact, if we make the *assumption* that Voldemort was telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth in the Graveyard Scene, then canon is against Malfoy being an active Voldemort `agent'. Note that `Voldemort is telling the truth' IS an assumption, not canon ? he is detected as a liar in PS/SS (fight against Harry) and in FBAWTFT where it is revealed that there are no such things as werewolf pups. There is good evidence that Voldemort is using undercover agents in the Voldemort wars Phase II. *PS/SS* Quirrel. The turban does not appear until the feast at Hogwarts (except in TMTMNBN). When he tries to steal the Stone from Gringotts, he is acting of his own free will to perform a Voldemort plan. His adopting of `poor, stuttering Professor Quirrel' persona places him firmly in the `Undercover Agent' category. [Hagrid is acting as an `agent' for a secret plan by Dumbledore (ie hiding the Stone in Hogwarts) when he gets the Stone out of Gringott's, but it's hard to imagine anyone LESS `undercover'] *CoS* None confirmed. Ginny Weasley is ensorcelled, and thus not acting of her own free will ? it is also not confirmed in canon that planting the diary WAS a Voldemort plan. *PoA* None confirmed. Peter Pettigrew is definitely undercover, but is (probably) not acting according to a Voldemort plan. *GoF* Crouch Jr, acting as Alistair Moody. [2] Persons confirmed as acting as spies or informers for either Voldemort or Dumbledore. The definition of `spy or informer' is that they *knowingly* passed information to either Voldemort or Dumbledore, without revealing that they were so doing to the other side. Bagman is thus not included in this category, as it is not yet confirmed in canon that he *knew* the information he passed on went to Voldemort. He could just have been incredibly stupid, after all. [grin]. Equally Draco Malfoy, who is confirmed in canon as giving his father information about Hogwarts is not included; there is no strict canon evidence that this information is passed on to Voldemort, or that Draco would have any idea that it is being passed on to Voldemort if it is. Karkaroff is also not included,as his information was given in rather public circumstances. *PS/SS* None confirmed. *CoS* None confirmed. *PoA* Peter Pettigrew, AKA Wormtail, in the Voldemort wars Phase I. *GoF* Augustus Rookwood, in the Voldemort wars Phase I (for Voldemort) Severus Snape, in the Voldemort wars Phase I (for Dumbledore) Note that there are currently *no* confirmed spies or informers on *either* side in the Voldemort wars Phase II. There are confirmed DE's, but it is not yet confirmed in canon that they have been secretly passing information to Voldemort .Equally, as I will show below, it is confirmed that Dumbledore is using `intelligence' in Phase II, but it is not yet confirmed that his sources are `spies or informers' according to the definition above. [3]References to Spies and `Intelligence' in Canon. Note that `Intelligence' is not necessarily gathered by active spies, even in the real world. *PS/SS* No references to Dumbledore or Voldemort using spies, intelligence or trying in any way to find out what the other side is up to. [Note that Snape does try to find out what Quirrel is up to, but it is not confirmed in canon that he was acting for Dumbledore]. *CoS* " my sources tell me that he [Lord Voldemort] is currently hiding in the forests of Albania" [Dumbledore, Ch. 18, p. 242, UK paperback] Note that while this is not proof that Dumbledore is using `spies or informers' it is proof that he is collecting `intelligence' [information] on Voldemort. No references to Voldemort collecting information or using spies. *PoA* Fudge: "Dumbledore, who was of course working tirelessly against You- Know-Who, had a number of useful spies." [PoA, Chapter 10, UK hardback, p.152] [note that Fudge refers to Dumbledore having spies, plural.] "He [Dumbledore] was sure that somebody close to the Potters had been keeping You-Know-Who informed of their movements." Said Professor McGonagall darkly. "Indeed, he had suspected for some time that someone on our side had turned traitor and was passing a lot of information to You-Know-Who." [PoA, Ch. 10, UK hardback, p. 153. The `somebody' is later confirmed as Peter Pettigrew spying for Voldemort, not Sirius Black as McGonagall assumes here.] Black: [accusing Peter Pettigrew of being a spy for Voldemort]. "You'd been passing information to him for a year before Lily and James died! You were his spy!" [ PoA p.274, Ch. 19, UK hardback.] *GoF* Karkaroff: "Rookwood, who was a spy, and passed He Who Must Not Be Named useful information from inside the Ministry itself! he used a network of well-placed wizards, both inside the Ministry and out to collect information - " [ GoF, UK hardback, Ch.30 p.512] Dumbledore: "Severus Snape rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us " [GoF, UK hardback, Ch.30 p.513] ******************************************************************* The Pipsqueak finishes, sighs, and turns to Melody. "How many canon is that?" She asks. "Uh." Says Melody. Two confirmed secret agents, three confirmed spies, mentions of `a number of useful spies for Dumbledore' in Phase I and `a network of wizards collecting information run by Rookwood' for Voldemort in Phase I. That's seven definite, absolutely confirmed canons that spies play a role in the Wizarding World, including two references to Dumbledore running a network of spies in Phase I, and that interesting reference to `my sources' in Phase II." "The secret agents play a major role in PS/SS and GoF" says Grey Wolf. "And the denoument in PoA revolves around discovering who was the real spy on the Potters. Those are big canons." "Yes, they are. But you have to be fair, Melody." Says the Pipsqueak. " Sources do not necessarily equal spies. Dumbledore *could* have had a `light on the road to Damascus' moment between Phase I and Phase II and become Pippin's chivalrous knight who prefers stumbling blindly into battles." Grey Wolf and Melody stare at the Pipsqueak. Who shrugs. "Sorry." She says. "But the tone of some of the recent attacks have been getting to me. Suggesting the Safe House has no right to exist is, frankly, a bit ridiculous. It has some very solid canon to defend itself with. " "You haven't mentioned the DISHWASHER." Says Melody. "Why should I?" says the Pipsqueak. The DISHWASHER has two major posts http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39662 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40044 plus nearly two hundred posts arguing for and against it. Ridiculous claims about `circular reasoning' and `based on faith' notwithstanding, the only thing that's going to knock the DISHWASHER out of the Safe House is some nice solid canon in Book 5." Grey Wolf, Melody and Pipsqueak all look nervously towards the sea front at the mention of Book 5. "Yes, it's coming." Says the Pipsqueak quietly. "The BOOK FIVE will have enough canon to blast half the Bay out of the water. It's entirely possible a stray shot might hit the DISHWASHER. Or LOLLIPOPS. Or even the PRESSURE COOKER." "But not the Safe House" says Grey Wolf. "We have canon." "Indeed." Says the Pipsqueak. "So if you don't mind, I think I'll get back to the cataloguing I'm doing for the Flood Defenses. Pip A comment for the `Dumbledore is always truthful' crowd. "The truth. Dumbledore sighed. "It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution." [PS/SS Ch. 17, p. 216 UK paperback]. Think about it. [grin]. From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Fri Oct 18 21:43:54 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 22:43:54 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Seven Weasley Children In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021018222640.00ac3550@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45529 At 21:07 18/10/02 +0000, lucky_kari wrote: >Do you know these families where they keep on having boys b/c they >want a girl eventually? Coming from a large family myself (One girl >and seven boys), I've heard that sort of thinking, but it always comes >from the people who don't have the seven or eight kids. "Oh, you're >still trying for a girl?" > >Yeah, like people really would do that in real life... Honestly. In >the past, people might try for a boy (as in Pride and Prejudice), but >those were different circumstances. I don't know about other families, but in mine (seven kids; in order of appearance: four girls, then two boys, and a last girl; I am the penultimate one) I know for a fact that my parents were very deliberately trying for a boy after having four girls. This deliberation included taking heed of lots of folklore. I also know that when my mum was pregnant with me (back in the days before ultrasound), my parents were really hoping I'd be a boy to be company for my brother. Everyone is glad that their wishes came true. :-) Incidentally, as for age differences and the posited unlikelihood of the age gap between Charlie and Percy, in our case, the births came at the following intervals: marriage + 15 months + 1 year (almost to the day!) + 13 months + 26 months + 5 years + 18 months + 6 years. Based on my personal experience, the huge gap in the Weasley family strikes me as neither strange nor implausible. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, neither a Seventh Son fan nor an Imperius! or Auror! Arthur fan, but agrees with those who consider that neither theory depends on the other... From oppen at mycns.net Fri Oct 18 21:04:59 2002 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 16:04:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Imperious Molly! References: Message-ID: <01b001c276f0$3860ece0$e3510043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 45530 > Hello all- I am a little afraid to jump in on this topic, but here > goes- What if Molly was the one responsible for the theorized missing > Weasley child? > First- A large gap in ages between Bill and Charlie and the rest of > the family has been thought to indicate a missing, presumably dead, > Weasley child. The Imperious Arthur theory says that Mr. Weasely is > the one responsible, having been forced by the curse. > > Here is my slightly different spin. In the GOF, chapter nine, page > 142 in American editions, Mr Weasley says "Just Picture coming home > and finding the Dark Mark hovering over your house, and knowing what > you are about to find inside...." Mr Weasley winced. " Everyones > worst fear... the very worst.." > > Could be just me, but it sounds like he is speaking from personal > experience. Now, for Arthur to be responsible for the attack on his > family, he would have go home, commit the act, leave, be released > from the curse, and then come home and see the dark mark. This > doesnt make much sense. Why would a death eater put a ministry > official under the imperious, make him kill his child, and the let > him go? Even of Mr. Weasley was low-ranking at the time, he could > become a more valuable asset as time progresses. It would make sense > to keep him under the curse, no reason though to let him go. Why > stike the Weasleys, anyway? If the DEs wanted to use Arthur, they > would keep him under the curse. If to terrorize or get revenge, Molly > is the better choice to target. > > Imperious Molly works a little better. Molly would be home, alone > with only her small children, in an isolated house.A De could easily > suprise her, put her under the curse, make her kill her child, and > then leave. She is an easier target, if the purpose was only to > terrorize. Then when Arthur comes home from a day of work, he will > find the Dark Mark hovering over his house, like the quote above. > > BY the way, If it was Arthur, why would he be suprised when he goes > home? He already knows what happened, even if he couldn't stop > himself. He wouldn't need the Dark Mark to tell him what has > happened. Well. no, he says "Knowing" what he will find. Oh, that's really nasty. It would explain a lot of things...like Molly's smothering of Ginny (if she'd had a daughter that a DE forced her to kill, and had to live with _that_ memory for a long time, and then had another daughter, she'd probably feel like she'd been given a second chance) and her bonding with Harry. It would also explain why the other Weasleys don't ever mention it. From robgonz0 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 18 21:49:41 2002 From: robgonz0 at yahoo.com (Robert Gonzalez) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 16:49:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Azkaban Effect On Hardened Criminals References: Message-ID: <003001c276f0$43a34f80$18fea8c0@WorkGroup> No: HPFGUIDX 45531 ----- Original Message ----- From: "r f" > Here's something that's always bothered me a little bit about Azkaban and > the WW use of Dementors: > > I foresee vigilantes, mob rule and general pandemonium. Is anyone else > worried? me: I agree with you. So does Dumbledore apparently. He tried to warn Cornelius Fudge about it at the end of GoF but to no avail. "...you have put Lord Voldemorts's most dangerous supporters in the care of creatures who will join him the instant he asks..." The only thing is I thought the Dementors took away all the good feelings and left the person depressed because they were feeding on the depression not the good feelings. Rob From jodel at aol.com Fri Oct 18 22:32:00 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 18:32:00 EDT Subject: Second Daughter Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45532 Dave asks; >> Ooooo! Good point! But if the alphabetical thing is valid, why does it break down with Ron and Ginny? << Ron is Horace Ronald (makes as much sense as Edward Percival, although I suppose there is always Heyronimus[sp?]) and Ginny is Iphagenia (or Imogene)? -JOdel From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 18 22:21:49 2002 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:21:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Classist Hogwarts (was ... was .... was...) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021018172116.05459690@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45533 Hello all-- This is my first post here. I will try not to break too many rules. Go gently with me. My comments are interspersed below. Jim >At 20:10 17/10/02 +0000, swimsalone wrote: > >I woud argue that of course a Boarding school is somewhat > >elitist, but the presence of the Weasleys seems to indicate that > >this elitist element is extremely unimportant (except to Ron who > >feels quite put-upon to be poor in a school packed with > >privileged children) in the long run. I tend to disagree with some of the presuppositions of this statement. Not that "boarding school" doesn't imply some level of elitism; it does. But Ron Weasley's presence at Hogwarts, to me, reinforces that elitism rather than negating it. Ron is poor, certainly, but that has no impact on his class. In fact, I would argue that Ron is at Hogwarts primarily because of his class. He is from an old family, is a pure-bred, is a child of Hogwarts alumni, speaks with a "good" accent (cf. Stan Shunpike), but seems to have only meager magical ability. Would he have a place at Hogwarts aside from the circumstances of his birth? >As the clock struck 03:10 AM 10/18/2002 +0100, GulPlum took pen in hand >and wrote: >Before I get stuck in, let's define our terms. I get the impression that >the word "class" has slightly different undertones on either side of the >Atlantic. In America, it's almost exclusively about money, and to a lesser >degree about power. Later down the line comes "breeding", or inheritance. This "American" definition of class is very geographically delimited. In much of American society, class is defined by breeding only, absolutely irrespective of money or power. San Antonio, New Orleans and Philadelphia societies are good examples of this. I would suggest that the main difference between class structures in the US and in Britain is that class structures (and class definitions) in the US are very local and regional and that class in Britain is more of a national construct. I see class in the Potterverse as following the British model in that respect. As the clock struck 03:10 AM 10/18/2002 +0100, GulPlum took pen in hand and wrote: >By whichever measure of "class", Hogwarts as an institution shows no >preference. We have the purebloods: the wealthy and aristocratic Malfoys, >the impoverished professional Weasleys, the wealthy Potters about whose >professional standing we know nothing at present, and the not-apparently >wealthy Longbottoms. We have the mixed-bloods: Seamus, and Riddle from the >Muggle orphanage. We have the Muggle-born: Hermione with her professional >parents, the well-heeled Finch-Fletchley, and the milkman's sons the Creeveys. I am, personally, unconvinced by this. I believe this could just as easily point to a basically elitist school system with a certain number of scholarship cases (what would have once been called "charity boys") thrown in. Ron Weasley and Neville Longbottom may be good examples of students given a place at Hogwarts because of their class (as in the circumstances of their birth) and in spite of their meager or even negligible magical talent. I agree that wealth seems to play no part in selection for Hogwarts. I just think wealth is irrelevant to class standing. As the clock struck 03:10 AM 10/18/2002 +0100, GulPlum took pen in hand and wrote: >Note, however, that pupils are sorted NOT by their social, familial or >economic background, but by their own character and aptitudes. "It is not >important where we came from, but who we are." Poor Riddle with his >(presumably) not-well-off magical mother and grandfather is sorted into the >same House as wealthy, aristocratic Malfoy; rich Harry joins the >impoverished Weasleys. But what do we really know about the sorting hat's selection criteria? Jim From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Fri Oct 18 23:50:33 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 00:50:33 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Missing Weasley Children - Names In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021019002332.00999330@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45534 At 16:04 18/10/02 +0000, iwishiwerehermione wrote: >I'm new to HP4GU, can someone point me to the cannon that proves >Charlie is so much older than Percy? In the Chamber of Secrets (which >I'm reading again in preparation for the movie release), when Harry >rescues Ginny, she goes on and on about how she will be expelled from >Hogwarts and how she has been looking forward to being a Hogwart's >student since Bill was accepted. (I'm at work without my copy of the >book, sorry for the lack of direct quote). The above statement appears to be inconsistent with the laregely accepted chronology which Michelle has since presented in a neat summary. However, this is one of those occasions where the exact quote may be helpful. Ginny's words were "ever since Bill came". This doesn't *necessarily* mean "ever since Bill FIRST came", and could be construed perfectly reasonably to mean "since Bill was here". Canon indicates a gap between Charlie's finishing and Percy's starting at Hogwarts, and Ginny could remember a time when she'd be seeing her oldest brother off at the start of the school year and welcoming him back home, and hearing the stories he had to tell. Some of her earliest memories would be connected with that, although I agree her phrasing is a little weird: as the chronology would have it, it is unlikely that she could remember a time when Bill was the only Weasley to Hogwarts, so if she'd said "when Bill and Charlie were here", there would have been no confusion. However, considering she's just been through a traumatic experience, it's not impossible that this is what she actually meant. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who hopes he's got his canon chronology right... From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Fri Oct 18 23:54:04 2002 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 00:54:04 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Classist Hogwarts (was ... was .... was...) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021018172116.05459690@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <011001c27701$a4b08660$07c87ad5@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 45535 "James P. Robinson III" wrote: > I tend to disagree with some of the presuppositions of this statement. Not > that "boarding school" doesn't imply some level of elitism; it does. But > Ron Weasley's presence at Hogwarts, to me, reinforces that elitism rather > than negating it. Ron is poor, certainly, but that has no impact on his > class. In fact, I would argue that Ron is at Hogwarts primarily because of > his class. He is from an old family, is a pure-bred, is a child of > Hogwarts alumni, speaks with a "good" accent (cf. Stan Shunpike), but seems > to have only meager magical ability. Would he have a place at Hogwarts > aside from the circumstances of his birth? I never thought the day will come when I have to protect Ron: there is no evidence of his magical ability being "meager". If he has some parallels in real life british educational system, that would be an example of "laddish culture" - someone who works very hard to impress his peers that he doesn't care about studies and does as little work as he can possibly get away with. That's where all this putting down of Hermione comes from. Just my humble opinion. Irene From sydpad at yahoo.com Sat Oct 19 00:00:41 2002 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 00:00:41 -0000 Subject: Stan Shunpike's accent (WAS: Re: Classist Hogwarts (was ... was .... was...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021018172116.05459690@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45536 > Ron Weasley's presence at Hogwarts, to me, reinforces that elitism rather > than negating it. Ron is poor, certainly, but that has no impact on his > class. In fact, I would argue that Ron is at Hogwarts primarily because of > his class. He is from an old family, is a pure-bred, is a child of > Hogwarts alumni, speaks with a "good" accent (cf. Stan Shunpike), but seems > to have only meager magical ability. Would he have a place at Hogwarts > aside from the circumstances of his birth? I haven't lived in England very long, but it's been long enough for me to appreciate the exceptional bitterness of the class issue, which in terms of psychic angst is closer to the race issue in the US than to anything else. So I'll just edge around the whole Ron-as-useless-toff, stepping-on-the-face-of-the-working-man thing (which requires strenously reading against the tide of the narrative, but if one is so impelled, so be it), and turn to ol' Stan Shunpike. I've come across a number of posts regarding this young man's education, and as far as I can tell the only evidence advanced that he DIDN'T go to Hogwarts, is that of his broad London cockney. It is naturally assumed, that Hogwarts student's accents would gravitate towards a Merlin's English Standard, so in deviating from this, Stan is showing his muddy boots and state schooling. But, DOES he in fact always speak this way? Here is Exhibit A: "Welcome to the Knight Bus, emergency transportation for the stranded witch or wizard. Just stick out your wand hand, step on board and we can take you anywhere you want to go. My name is Stan Shupike, and I will be your conductor this eve-" (UK Adult paperback, pg 29) So far, so Hogwarts. It's "stick out your wand hand", not "wand 'and". When he sees he's speaking to a little kid, though, he switches over to: "Woss that on your 'ead?" I now present Exhibit B, which is to say my boyfriend. Now he's London bred and went to a common or garden state school, but had his higher education at Oxford. I can assure you that he has his accent on a sliding scale, finely adjusted to situation and company. He would most certainly employ his native woodnotes when speaking to a twelve year old, but that doesn't mean he can't do otherwise. My feeling about Stan is that: -- he's a wizard, so he went to Hogwarts. Period. Where he aquired the ability, when he chooses, to speak MES (Merlin English Standard) -- he's London born, and till age 11, bred. Hence, "nuffink". -- I'll guess Muggle-born, because he a) didn't have the connections to get a better job out of school (class DOES count, after all), and b) was even more terrified than your avarage wizard at the meniton of Voldemort: "Me 'eart's goin' that fast..." That's what I think, anyways. Sydney, possesed of a depressingly dull Canadian drawl. From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sat Oct 19 00:13:08 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Weasley by any other name...[was: Second Daughter Theory] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021019001308.59620.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45537 Dave asks: Ooooo! Good point! But if the alphabetical thing is valid, why does it break down with Ron and Ginny? Me: Because it's NOT valid! Nothing in canon supports it. See below. jodel at aol.com wrote: Ron is Horace Ronald (makes as much sense as Edward Percival, although I suppose there is always Heyronimus[sp?]) and Ginny is Iphagenia (or Imogene)? Me: Okay, now people are just making stuff up! Ron is Ronald (hence the sign "Ronald's Room" hanging on his door). Ginny's name may be Virginia or may not, but it is the most likely thing. Percy's name may or may not be Percival, but it most certainly is NOT Edward, or anything else beginning with 'E,' according to the books. Bill's name is most likely William. Why do folks feel the need to denigrate JKR by attributing an alphabetical theory of naming the Weasleys to her? Give her more credit than that! She has shown far more of a propensity to name people things that have significant meanings. She could have been thinking of William the Conquerer when she named Bill, or she could have a friend named Charlie who likes animals, or she could have been inspired by King Arthur when naming Arthur Weasley, and so on. (These theories, unlike the alphabet theory, are at least plausible and fit her usual naming patterns.) It could just be that she likes the names she selected for the Weasleys for no particular reason, just as her favorite boys' name is "Harry." Since this rather dubious theory requires so much convoluted dissembling and wanton destruction of JKR's canon, why continue to espouse it? --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sat Oct 19 00:23:57 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy, not Bill [was: Missing Weasley Children - Names] In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021019002332.00999330@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <20021019002357.64614.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45538 GulPlum wrote: Some of her earliest memories would be connected with that, although I agree her phrasing is a little weird: as the chronology would have it, it is unlikely that she could remember a time when Bill was the only Weasley to Hogwarts, so if she'd said "when Bill and Charlie were here", there would have been no confusion. However, considering she's just been through a traumatic experience, it's not impossible that this is what she actually meant. Me: Personally, I think this is just another JKR Flint based on her innumeracy. (Although she COULD use Ginny's trauma as an excuse. ) Perhaps she'll fix this at some point to say, "Ever since Percy went," since that would make the most sense. Ginny would have been six years old when Percy went to Hogwarts, but her two oldest brothers were probably born in the sixties and she wasn't born until 1981, so she would have been barely sentient when they FINISHED school, and not even a gleam in Arthur's eye when they started. --Barb (who is NOT trying to start a "gleam in Arthur's eye" thread...) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmmears at comcast.net Sat Oct 19 00:53:14 2002 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 00:53:14 -0000 Subject: A Weasley by any other name...[was: Second Daughter Theory] In-Reply-To: <20021019001308.59620.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45539 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barb wrote: Iphagenia (or Imogene)? > > > Me: Okay, now people are just making stuff up! Ron is Ronald (hence the sign "Ronald's Room" hanging on his door). Ginny's name may be Virginia or may not, but it is the most likely thing. Percy's name may or may not be Percival, but it most certainly is NOT Edward, or anything else beginning with 'E,' according to the books. Bill's name is most likely William. Why do folks feel the need to denigrate JKR by attributing an alphabetical theory of naming the Weasleys to her? Because the promoters of the seventh son theory want so badly for Ron to be a "seer", that they are willing to torture, twist, turn, and invent canon, to create a "missing Weasley son, in order to back it up ;-). Actually, I don't really have any strong feelings concerning Ron's having the ability to predict the future. Maybe he will be shown later to actually have this talent, which would be amusing and ironic given his attitude toward Trelawney. What I don't understand is why it's necessary for him to be the seventh son in order for him to have the ability to forsee the future. I agree with you that the alphabetical naming theory needs to be abandoned. In spite of all the brave efforts of it's proponents, it's just a stiff and deserves a decent burial before it gets any smellier. Jo Serenadust, who is really fighting the impulse to jump up and down and defend Ron's magical abilities because she doesn't want to frighten a new poster. Not yet, anyway..... From sailor_moirae at hotmail.com Fri Oct 18 23:09:16 2002 From: sailor_moirae at hotmail.com (sailor_moirae) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 23:09:16 -0000 Subject: Second Daughter Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45540 > Ron is Horace Ronald (makes as much sense as Edward Percival, although I > suppose there is always Heyronimus[sp?]) and Ginny is Iphagenia (or Imogene)? > > -JOdel How do you get that with the names? (Just wondering, I'm very lost ...) ~Moirae From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Sat Oct 19 01:55:42 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 01:55:42 -0000 Subject: A Mrs. Figg Sighting? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45541 Well, I'm going to take the risk that this information hasn't been brough up somewhere in the 200 or so posts I have yet to read in the build up I managed to get over the last week of only briefly stopping by HP4GU... Now, I must admit that while I never noticed this particular incident, I did notice another one(ok, it was pointed out to me by some person I can't even remember on a random HP discussion). First of all, let me point out that in fact, Mrs. Figg is mentioned a number of times in the chapters surrounding the Quidditch World Cup. For instance: "Harry had never been camping in his life; the Dursley's had never taken him on any kind of holiday, preferring to leave him with Mrs. Figg, an old neighbour."(GOF, pg 73-74 Canadian Hardcover Edition) However, the quote I am bringing up is later on the page: "Harry bent down, ducked under the ten flap, and felt his jaw drop. He had walked into what looked like an old-fashioned, three-roomed flat, complete with bathroom and kitchen. Oddly enough, it was furnished in exactly the same sort of style as Mrs. Figg's; there were crocheted covers on the mismatched chairs, and a strong smell of cats."(GOF, pg 74) Could it be that this is indeed a tent that once belonged to Arabella Figgs? Of course, this whole idea could be put made moot by the paragraph that follows the above(quoting Mr. Weasley): "I borrowed this from Perkins at the office. Doesn't camp much any more, poor fellow, he's got lumbago.' Of course, this could be a clever cover up for his connection to Figgs. Possibly Perkins obtained the tent from Arabella and like a man never bothered to redecorate. Then again, maybe I should have entered last month's contest with a SHIP for Perkins and Figgs. After all, any man old enough to get lumbago should be in the same generation as Arabella. Maybe Perkins is even the solution to the 'Mrs.' Figgs problem... ~Risti, who is enjoying the fact that she is finally off post- moderation, and that this little gem should, for better or worse, instantly appear on the list, providing Yahoomort is sleeping today... From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 19 02:00:17 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Weasley by any other name...[was: Second Daughter Theory] In-Reply-To: <20021019001308.59620.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021019020017.13059.qmail@web20008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45542 --- Barb wrote: > > Dave asks: Ooooo! Good point! But if the > alphabetical thing is valid, why does it break down > with Ron and Ginny? > > > Me: Because it's NOT valid! Nothing in canon > supports it. See below. > > > > jodel at aol.com wrote: > Ron is Horace Ronald (makes as much sense as Edward > Percival, although I suppose there is always > Heyronimus[sp?]) and Ginny is Iphagenia (or > Imogene)? > > > Bill's name is > most likely William. Why do folks feel the need to > denigrate JKR by attributing an alphabetical theory > of naming the Weasleys to her? Well, I agree they are not alphabetically named, but I don't think Bill is William. I think it's Bilius. After his uncle. I know the name sounds awful, but I'd still love such a cool guy being named Bilius. I'm not sure Ginny is Virgina. I didn't think that was a common name in England. It could be Ginny, I'm not discounting that. But I'm not assuming it either. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 19 02:03:50 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Weasley by any other name...[was: Second Daughter Theory] In-Reply-To: <20021019020017.13059.qmail@web20008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021019020350.22768.qmail@web20002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45543 --- Rebecca Stephens wrote: > I'm not sure Ginny is Virgina. I didn't think that > was a common name in England. It could be Ginny, > I'm > not discounting that. But I'm not assuming it > either. > > > Rebecca I meant to write "It could be Virginia, I'm not discounting that." Please forgive me for my lack of proof-reading skills. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 19 02:08:37 2002 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 02:08:37 -0000 Subject: A Weasley by any other name...[was: Second Daughter Theory] In-Reply-To: <20021019001308.59620.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45544 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barb wrote: Barb wrote- > Me: Okay, now people are just making stuff up! Ron is Ronald (hence the sign "Ronald's Room" hanging on his door). Ginny's name may be Virginia or may not, but it is the most likely thing. Percy's name may or may not be Percival, but it most certainly is NOT Edward, or anything else beginning with 'E,' according to the books. Bill's name is most likely William. Why do folks feel the need to denigrate JKR by attributing an alphabetical theory of naming the Weasleys to her? Give her more credit than that! She has shown far more of a propensity to name people things that have significant meanings. She could have been thinking of William the Conquerer when she named Bill, or she could have a friend named Charlie who likes animals, or she could have been inspired by King Arthur when naming Arthur Weasley, and so on. (These theories, unlike the alphabet theory, are at least plausible and fit her usual naming patterns.) It could just be that she likes the names she selected for the Weasleys for no particular reason, just as her favorite boys' name is "Harry." Since this rather dubious theory requires so much convoluted dissembling and wanton destruction of JKR's canon, why continue to espouse it? > I agree with you completely. According to this theory no one in the Potterverse goes by their given name at all. Also I have always wondered if George Weasley isn't perhaps named for JKR's ex-husband who I believe is named Jorge. Pity our poor George if JKR decides to get some fictional revenge on him throught the character. But then again it could just be a reference to St.George (patron saint of England) or any number of things we could spend forever guessing about. If there is anything special about the number of Weasleys it is the six boys and one girl. I remember reading somewhere that this is a very lucky number of children to have. -Olivia Grey From m.bockermann at t-online.de Sat Oct 19 04:06:30 2002 From: m.bockermann at t-online.de (m.bockermann at t-online.de) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 04:06:30 -0000 Subject: Seven Weasley Children References: <1034991011.3905.33211.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <023601c27726$d9c31aa0$0c729fc1@computer> No: HPFGUIDX 45545 Hi Eileen! Eileen wrote: >>>I've heard this before and it makes me want to laugh very, very hard. Do you know these families where they keep on having boys b/c they want a girl eventually? Yeah, like people really would do that in real life... Honestly. In the past, people might try for a boy (as in Pride and Prejudice), but those were different circumstances. People have large families these days b/c they want large families. End of story. I don't get this urge to look for a more "sensible" reason for the existence of Bill, Charlie, Percy, Fred, George, Ron, and Ginny. I must object to that, Eileen. I know families where they continued to have children, trying to get one of the other gender. Two families that stopped at three boys. One of them gave up because the mother was to old, in the other case it was breast cancer. In the third family they have been trying for a boy and only stopped (grudingly) after the sixth girl because the mother nearly died at birth. Personally I don't think those are compelling reasons to have more children and I agree with you that traditionally couples have tried for a boy instead of a girl. But it would fit JKR that she would turn that tradition on its heels and make a girl from it. And Molly and Arthur seem to love each of their children. If they don't mind getting a lot of boys until they get a girl... who am I to stop them. Take care, Ethanol From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Sat Oct 19 02:44:53 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 03:44:53 +0100 Subject: Hogwarts Student Population In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.20021016221551.0096f400@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021019011556.00accd30@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45546 (Several posts dealt with in this one; apologies for the length if anyone finds it unbearable) :-) At 01:26 17/10/02 +0000, Steve wrote: >According to the American Heritage Dictionary*, you are wrong. > >HOWEVER, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, you are right. Which just goes to validate the statement with which I started that post, that American usage is broader than British. I don't mean to appear obstreperous, but in what way does that make me both right and wrong? JKR is British and AFAIK had never visited the USA before writing the books; British usage (not only of "dorm") is consistent throughout the books, so why should American usage be considered a viable interpretation? Yes, I know that the American publishers in their infinite wisdom chose to change some of the words which have entirely different meanings in American usage (namely "jumper"), but in cases where meanings are only broader or narrower, British usage should prevail. Especially when it comes to dialogue, rather than descriptions, as it is a British characters who are speaking. >You would emphasize the words "Second Years". I would emphasize the >words "OLD DORMITORY". Harry went back to the same room he had the >previous year; his OLD DORMITORY, which is the same room he goes back >to every year. He doesn't have to search for a sign to know which one it is. In the part of my post you chose to excise, I said that it Harry & Co had no grounds to take it for granted that their OLD dorm would remain their NEW bedroom. It is specifically referred to as his "OLD dorm", not as "HIS dorm", which would indicate that he (and the Narrator) had no expectation that it would remain "his". It is, however, interesting that the school felt it necessary or appropriate to include that notice on the door - no other dorm appears to include a label. Then again, it is unimportant to Harry which room houses which pupils so perhaps there are such labels on all the dorm doors, but he (and the Narrator) fails to remark upon them. >So *IF* there are others in his year, they do the same thing. They go back >to the same room that they've had since the beginning, and find the sign >changed to indicate their current year. "SECOND YEARS" proves nothing >other than Harry is one year farther along in school. Yes, but as a sign on a door, its function is not to impart unnecessary information to Harry and his room-mates about which year they're in, but which *room* they're in. To rephrase a comment in my previous post into a direct question: if there are any other second-year Gryffindor boys, what does the sign on *their* door say? Jaye wrote: >I still don't see why the door that says 'Second Years' couldn't lead to a >hallway or group of rooms. Also, since no one else has mentioned 'magic >doors', I will. What if the 'Second Years' door is magic and understands >that when Harry and Ron are entering, they should be put in room 4, so it >opens to that room automatically. Teachers and people like Sirius Black >would have to tell the door which room they wanted, but it would still not >be a major problem. Well, nobody's mentioned magic doors because there is absolutely zero canon indication that they exist (at least not at present, and not in the form in which you posit). :-) As things stand at this stage in the game, the door from the stairwell leads directly into the room with five beds in which Harry sleeps. I think (but can't be bothered to check right now) that there have been a few occasions when that door has been ajar - what would happen if someone in one of the other "magic rooms" had to use that door while it was open and showing the interior of Harry & Co's room? >I argue these points because I just find it easier to accept this world JK >Rowling has built on her terms. After all, she is the author. If she says >there are 1000 students in the school, I believe her. I just argue to make >what she says true. Now, I know that the interviews are not as canon as >what we see in the books, but I still believe that this is a very little >point to disagree with her on (on the other hand, I am fighting vehemently >for her over this 'little point', so maybe it's not so moot after all ;D ) Oh dear. I thought this discussion wasn't using extra-canonical information. :-) However, if you *really* want to go down that route, as far as Harry's year is concerned, JKR has made it clear how many pupils there are, in the "Harry Potter and Me" documentary shown at the end of last year. The notebook she showed, which unlike an off-the-cuff remark made during an in interview, is the very SOURCE of canon, shows Harry's year to include 41-43 pupils (as she pointedly refused to show the detail on the right-hand page to the camera, it's difficult to make out some of the text). As the names are in alphabetical order, from Abbott to Zambini, that's pretty conclusive. Screenshots of the notebook are available in the HPFGU files area: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/hpforgrownups/lst?.dir=/Harry+Potter+%2 6+Me&.src=gr&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/hp forgrownups/lst%3f.dir=/Harry%2bPotter%2b%2526%2bMe%26.src=gr%26.view=t If Harry's year is about 40 pupils, then a total of 1000 pupils at Hogwarts means that the remaining six years count about 960 pupils among them, or about 160 pupils on average in each year. Or, from another angle, as a rough average, about 240 Gryffindors other than those in Harry's year. We know that Harry isn't the most observant or outgoing teenager in the world, but surely he'd have noticed during four years at school that his year is *a quarter* the size of the others? If only when arriving at Hogwarts in year 3 or 4, that there are so many more first years than there were when he first arrived? Or that, with 250 pupils crammed into the Gryffindor Common Room, he, Hermione and Ron always seem to be able to find a free table at which to work or talk, with nobody within eavesdropping distance? Or that, on entering the Common Room, he never has trouble spotting whoever he's looking for (if they're there)? Even if Harry had never noticed it, at some point over the last four years, Hermione certainly would have. I'm not saying that it is utterly impossible for Harry's class to be a quarter the size of the others (this could indeed be an upcoming plot point), but I would find it unlikely, and unsatisfying if this was suddenly revealed to be the case. And then Eileen waxed a bit more philosophical in a TBAY post (that wasn't particularly TBAYish apart from the intro) :-) when she said: >The Hogwarts Numbers discussion has far-reaching implications. If Hogwarts >has a 1,000 students and is the only wizarding school in Britain, it's >possible that all magic children are schooled therein. If not, it isn't. I think that in terms of thematic consistency, it is important for Hogwarts to be the only School of Witchcraft and Wizardry in Britain which offers a full curriculum with specialist teachers. As I never cease to repeat at every possible opportunity, the central theme of the books is "prejudice". Whilst it would be interesting for the prejudice to extend as far as the choice of school, I personally find it more satisfying that Hogwarts is a microcosm of the *whole* (British) Wizarding community, and not just of its upper classes. Certainly the mix of pupils' backgrounds, financial circumstances and race (both in terms of ethnicity and magical/Muggle parentage) would militate against any impression that Hogwarts itself is selective in any way (beyond selecting kids with basic magical potential). People have put forward (including just now) that Stan Shunpike's broad Cockney and his (apparently) menial job are an indicator that he didn't attend Hogwarts. For all we know, he and Ernie might well own and have developed the Knight Bus themselves and run it as their own business, apart from driving it and looking after the passengers. Why shouldn't they *choose* to drive and conduct the bus? On top of not having to pay staff, perhaps they actually enjoy that part of the job? There is no indication that they run it on anyone else's behalf and so jumping to the conclusion that just because they speak non-Standard British English, they are either stupid, untalented or uneducated in both the magical arts and English is a sign of *reader* prejudice, not the Wizarding World's or JKR's. That they are able to jump from Cockney to Standard English at will is in fact a sign to the contrary, that they *are* educated in "proper" English, and observant enough to know when it is in their best interests to use it, such as when greeting a new passenger. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who thinks he's said enough on the subject for now. :-) From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Sat Oct 19 03:37:04 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 04:37:04 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Classist Hogwarts (was ... was .... was...) Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021019043643.009be100@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45547 At 17:21 18/10/02 -0500, James P. Robinson III wrote: >This is my first post here. I will try not to break too many rules. Go >gently with me. Welcome aboard! Watch the hurricane, though! (current TBAY-related reference, if you were wondering). :-) I shall try my best to be gentle. If anything indicates a different tone, please accept my apologies in advance for badly phrasing my thoughts. >Not that "boarding school" doesn't imply some level of elitism; it does. As an alumnus of a particularly un-elitist boarding school, I beg to differ on the absolute applicability of that statement. :-) However, in canon, Hogwarts is NEVER referred to as a "boarding school". OK, it is a boarding school, as the pupils live on campus, but this isn't necessarily an indication of elitism, but of practicality. For one thing, the pupils have lessons late at night (e.g. astronomy). For another, the wizarding community appears quite thinly distributed around the country, and thus it makes sense to have them all together so that they can get to know each socially, not just strictly academically. On top of that, as magic is potentially very dangerous, it helps for the kids to be in a controlled environment while they are learning. >But Ron Weasley's presence at Hogwarts, to me, reinforces that elitism rather >than negating it. Ron is poor, certainly, but that has no impact on his >class. In fact, I would argue that Ron is at Hogwarts primarily because of >his class. He is from an old family, is a pure-bred, is a child of >Hogwarts alumni, speaks with a "good" accent (cf. Stan Shunpike), but seems >to have only meager magical ability. Would he have a place at Hogwarts >aside from the circumstances of his birth? I apologise for using the same arguments over and over again, but I really can't stress this enough: what about Black Dean Thomas or Lee Jordan, the self-confessed almost-Squib Neville Longbottom, the Muggle-born Hermione Granger or the Muggle milkman's kids the Creevey brothers, etc., etc.? Each of these fit into categories which by your rationale above would not give them a place at Hogwarts. As for Ron's "meagre" magical ability, I leave the Ron-philes to take you task. :-) Suffice to say, that whilst his grades don't appear to be particularly impressive, he's by no means at the bottom of his year. Any opinion of Ron's limited abilities is primarily his own, not other people's. And as for Stan Shunpike, I've just made my thoughts clear in another thread. >I believe this could just as easily point to a basically elitist school >system with a certain number of scholarship cases (what would have once >been called "charity boys") thrown in. Ron Weasley and Neville Longbottom >may be good examples of students given a place at Hogwarts because of >their class (as in the circumstances of their birth) and in spite of their >meager or even negligible magical talent. I agree that wealth seems to >play no part in selection for >Hogwarts. I just think wealth is irrelevant to class standing. So, going by what you said in the bit I excised, race comes close to being important. Hogwarts accepts half-bloods and Muggle-borns, and it accepts non-WASPs. Almost everyone in Harry's year (let's face it, these are the pupils we know best and by whom we can best judge Hogwarts' acceptance principles), has some kind of foible of birth which puts them into a category which would prejudice them. Whichever measure of "class" one wishes to use as a benchmark, *someone* in Harry's year fails it. To say that each of these pupils has been granted a place on exceptional grounds for whatever reason is, frankly, insulting, both to them, and to JKR. :-) Within the storyline, and (meta-textually) as an indication of the "moral" JKR is trying to put across in the books, it quite simply doesn't make sense. >But what do we really know about the sorting hat's selection criteria? We have the two songs it sang, and Dumbledore's little speech at the end of CoS. We don't know everything there is to know about how the Sorting Hat makes its decisions, but I repeat that JKR has been very careful in mixing each House's pupils in such a way that their family circumstances in terms of "class" don't come into it at all, although some families seem to have in-bred traits. For instance, Malfoy knows that his family's always been in Slytherin, and both Creevey brothers are Gryffindors. But the Parvati twins are sorted into separate Houses. -- GulPlum, who hopes this reply hasn't put Jim off HPFGU completely... :-) From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Sat Oct 19 04:04:24 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 04:04:24 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Student Population In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021019011556.00accd30@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45548 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: > Certainly the mix of pupils' backgrounds, financial circumstances and race > (both in terms of ethnicity and magical/Muggle parentage) would militate > against any impression that Hogwarts itself is selective in any way (beyond > selecting kids with basic magical potential). Yes, it would, wouldn't it? I'm sure that's the reason why most people don't read Hogwarts as classist. JKR obviously does not want it to be classist, any more than she wants it to be sexist, racist, or discriminatory to people with different magical backgrounds. However, the text can sometimes present something else than JKR's political opinions. Some people have argued for the existance of race problems in the books. I don't see it. Others have summoned the spectre of sexism. To a certain extent, I do see that, though it's not as big as some people seem to see it, imho. Others have pointed out that discrimination against non-magic people does seem to be present amongst the good guys. Here, it's difficult to sort out what is purposeful and what is accidental. What does JKR think about McGonagall's remark about Muggles? Yes, there is an issue here, I think. But all this pales in comparison to issues of class. Here I'm sure JKR believes one thing and the text sets out quite another. Class is a touchy subject. I joked in a TBAY post the other day: ""I'm telling you, Cindy, the moment you go there, you get people screaming and howling, and throwing fits and... terrible things, Cindy, terrible things." I'm quite aware of the fact that Class is a huge issue in Britain, unlike here in Canada. In fact, if HP had been written by a Canadian, I would have shrugged it off. We Canadians aren't generally the best attuned to Class connotations. But JKR should know what she's doing. And what she's doing - from what I do know about the whole Class issue - is not so innocent. > People have put forward (including just now) that Stan Shunpike's broad > Cockney and his (apparently) menial job are an indicator that he didn't > attend Hogwarts. > > For all we know, he and Ernie might well own and have developed the Knight > Bus themselves and run it as their own business, apart from driving it and > looking after the passengers. Why shouldn't they *choose* to drive and > conduct the bus? On top of not having to pay staff, perhaps they actually > enjoy that part of the job? Would that explain JKR's connection of Stan with the fellow who supposedly washes dishes at the Leaky Cauldron in GoF? Maybe that fellow's friend was lying about him, putting him down in front of the Veela, but he doesn't offer any objections, does he? And, even if that wasn't the case, I think there's a lot to be pondered about JKR's presentation of Stan always being in connection with working class stereotypes. (I believe the resident Brits prefer "working class" to "lower class?" Am I correct?) > There is no indication that they run it on anyone else's behalf and so > jumping to the conclusion that just because they speak non-Standard British > English, they are either stupid, untalented or uneducated in both the > magical arts and English is a sign of *reader* prejudice, not the Wizarding > World's or JKR's. That they are able to jump from Cockney to Standard > English at will is in fact a sign to the contrary, that they *are* educated > in "proper" English, and observant enough to know when it is in their best > interests to use it, such as when greeting a new passenger. But isn't that part of the stereotype? Cockney speakers who try to speak "proper" English, but then fail? How come neither Stan nor Ernie talk "proper" English to Fudge? Again, it's not a stereotype I'm endorsing. But it does exist. ---------------------------- Before Harry could turn, he felt a hand on his shoulder. At the same time, Stan shouted, "Blimey! Ern, come 'ere! Come 'ere." Harry looked up at the owner of the hand on his shoulder and felt a bucketful of ice cascade into his stomach -- he had walked right into Cornelius Fudge, the Minister of Magic himself. Stan leapt onto the pavement beside them. "What didja call Neville, Minister?" he said excitedly. Fudge, a portly little man in a long, pinstriped cloak, looked cold and exhausted. "Neville?" he repeated, frowning. "This is Harry Potter." "I knew it!" Stan shouted gleefully. "Ern! Ern! Guess 'oo Neville is, Ern! 'E's 'Arry Potter! I can see 'is scar!" "Yes," said Fudge testily, "well, I'm very glad the Knight Bus picked Harry up, but he and I need to step inside the Leaky Cauldron now..." --------------------------- And talking of Fudge... Not being British, I don't have the best ear for this but his speech strikes me as very old-fashioned and undeniably upper class. Now, for the known backgrounds of Hogwarts students. Muggle-born Hermione Granger - Parents dentists. Justin Finch-Fletchley - Down for Eton. Colin and Dennis Creevey - Dad's a milkman. Dean Thomas - Hails from West Ham? (Not being a Brit, I have no idea whether this has any signifcance) Nothing is known of the other muggleborn students. It might be interesting to do a commentary on their names. Sometimes names are useful in telling us about Class. But it is not a task I could undertake, and besides, I feel the text is pretty clear on this point. Muggleborn students come from all different classes and backgrounds. I was quite aware of the connotations of Colin's Dad being a milkman. There is no question of Classism here. But let's examine the current wizard-born students. (I exclude those whom we know absolutely nothing about their class background.) Wizard-born The Malfoys - Upperclass. With a manor. A name guaranteed to summon shades of 1066 and All that. etc. etc. etc. Pansy Parkinson - Quite good enough to simper about on Draco's arm. And does anyone want to claim the Malfoys aren't class-conscious? Crabbe and Goyle - Good enough for Draco's boon companions. Some suggestion in the text that their parents are part of Lucius Malfoy's circle. The Weasleys - Poor, but obviously an old family. Both Lucius and Draco talk of them as equals that have fallen to a lower level. Arthur Weasley works at the Department of Muggle Artefacts. Although this is not the heart of the action at the Ministry, he is on close terms with all the Ministry higher-ups. And in an emergency, he's at the heart of the action. Pavarti and Padma Patil - Pansy's comment to Pavarti about Neville suggests that they knew each other before Hogwarts: more evidence of a "magic circle" in the wizarding world. Neville Longbottom - Pureblooded. Father was a popular auror. Very popular. His grandmother continually chides him for not upholding the family's honour. Cedric Diggory - Father works for the Department of Magical Creatures. Like Arthur Weasley, at the heart of the action. Harry Potter - According to Rowling, James was independantly wealthy. Barty Crouch Jr. - one of the "oldest" pureblood families Ernie Macmillan - Boasts that he can trace his family back through nine generations. (I've always thought Ernie was meant to be the wizarding equivalent of Justin. :-) ---------------------- Anyone else with a background we know anything about? So, while you can point to the presence of the Creeveys as a basis for an absence of class discrimination at Hogwarts, to do so is fundamentally misleading. Because, while the backgrounds of the muggle-born students is diverse, the background of the wizarding born students isn't. There's nothing to say that all those other students don't have more diverse backgrounds. Maybe Katie Bell's Dad is Tom from the Leaky Cauldron, good old Tom Bell. It could be. But the fact remains that we have to supply this information for ourselves. Hogwarts may not be classist but it portrays a certain class exclusively. And when you take into consideration the fact that the school does not exist and the text does, the value of figuring out what must be *true* of the school pales in comparison to the value of figuring out how the school is presented in the text. JKR's class-based presentation exists. Hogwarts does not. So, the students all have "that" sort of background. And now on to the Ministry of Magic, which is manned by Fudge (upper class), Crouch (upper class old family), Ludo Bagman (whose father was an old friend of August Rookwood - a posh sounding name in itself), and Arthur Weasley (old family). There's no evidence for the backgrounds of the other Ministry people, though I would be very surprised should Amos Diggory not conform to the model. Again, what we know is what's important. I'm sure it's quite possible the current Head of Magical Law Enforcement is Ernie Prang's brother. But the text shows us the Old Boys network firmly entrenched. Eileen, who feels that there must be a lot of Elkins in this post, but didn't, on her word of honour, look up those old posts and plagiarize them From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Oct 19 05:17:41 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 05:17:41 -0000 Subject: Secret Arthur Man (TBAY filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45549 Secret Arthur Man (to the tune of Secret Agent Man ? this is the third time I've filked this particular tune. Hey, it fits: the Potterverse being so full of secrets and all) Hear the original at: http://www.foxlink.net/~bobnbren/1960s.html#S Inspired by the recent threads on Imperius!Arthur, Operative!Arthur and Auror!Arthur Dedicated to Cindy & Abagail THE SCENE: The Burrow. Enter MOLLY WEASLEY MOLLY Dumbledore asked me if he would step in That man who is the Auror's secret weapon His station may not seem high But he's the Operative!guy When Malfoy got mouthy, he swiftly leapt in Secret Arthur man, secret Arthur man Meet He-Who-Is-Unspeakable straight from the Weasley clan Though it appears his job's to defang tea sets His true task is to fight the Dark Lord's key threats Fudge may try to hold him back But through M-O-M contacts He's gonna make ev'ry Death Eater see sweat Secret Arthur man, secret Arthur man He's the artful bangy wizard with a CLOAKANDDAGGER plan Some folks claim he fell beneath Imperius Oh, really now, they surely can't be serious! One woman controls his will And I concede to no rival TBAYers must not try not to over-theory us Secret Arthur man, he is Molly's man I treat him like an earl for he knows I'm his Queen Anne! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Sat Oct 19 05:56:30 2002 From: chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia=20Chrysshallie?=) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 18:56:30 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why the Order of the Phoenix? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021019055630.30288.qmail@web10404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45550 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., kathrynbav at a... wrote: So, what does all this mean for Book Five: *Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix*? If my assumptions above are even remotely correct, then could it not be argued: 5) Order of the Phoenix - Secret organization created by, and for the explicit use of, a newly resurrected Voldemort. A new name for a new wave of destruction that will wash across the WW. ... A phoenix is a bird that rises from the ashes of its own destruction: >>> Hi, this is my first post, and I know this must have been discussed a lot of times. However I have a different opinion so I thought Id give you all something different to ponder ;) What if the order of Phoenix is not a group of people at all? What if it concerned the lifecycle of which the phoenix feather was taken from Fawkes? We dont know if the feathers were given at the same time. If they were taken from a different cycle, then even though the wands are brother, they are sort of step-brother? Sorry I cant find the right phrase! :< I think the fact that phoenixes keep regenerating will play an important part, otherwise why would Rowling mention it? The fact that Harrys and Voldemorts wand cant battle each other means that Harry has to defeat Voldemort wandless. This is not going to happen until book 7. I believe in book 5, Harry would face Voldemort once again, and the very thing that saves Harry would be the fact that his phoenix feather is from a different lifecycle with Voldemorts. Hence the order of phoenix effect. Well, thats my two cents. Vinnia who wonder what the experts in HPFGU would say about her theory http://careers.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Careers - 1,000's of jobs waiting online for you! From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Sat Oct 19 05:07:09 2002 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 05:07:09 -0000 Subject: Crouch, Voldie and motivations Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45551 OK, I'll start with the usual apology for bringing this up if its been discused before. Now that that's overwith: Does anyone have any thoughts on why Crouch!Moody was trying to help/force Harry to _win_ the Tri-Wizard Tournament as opposed to just entering him and assuring he finished the maze first? The champion who came first in the 3rd Task wouldn't necessarily have won the Tournament would they? If so, why bother with the first 2 tasks? But then, if Fleur had no chance why was she still competing? So, we must assume that after the winner of the 3rd task got the Cup (and arguably was transported via port-key to the front of the maze) they might have had to hand it over to the real winner of the tournament based on points. Anyway, this is all preamble to the real question. Why did Crouch!Moody care so much how Harry did on Tasks 1 and 2 if all he needed to do was get to the cup first? Possible theories: 1. He wanted Harry to enter the maze first and so have a better chance of finishing first. (possible, but he made it so easy for Harry in the maze -and finished off the competition - that it hardly mattered) 2. He wanted Harry to not die or be disqualified in the other tasks (this one seems likely, I guess, but there were precautions in place and no one was going to get hurt badly) 3. Voldemort wanted to show his followers that he could defeat Harry Potter and thought it would make a more effective demonstration if Harry had just won the tournament and thus proven himself as a powerful wizard or going even deeper 4. Voldemort _really wanted_ Harry to be a powerful wizard when he faced him, either to prove to himself that he could beat a powerful!Harry when he couldn't beat a baby!Harry, or alternatively, to make the spell with Harry's blood even more powerful. Crouch!Moody's help with the tasks (as well as his training in the Imperious Curse) no doubt made Harry a much more powerful and confident wizard. Was this intentional? They planned for Harry to be dead right after the 3rd task of course, so maybe they never planned for the consequences if he wasn't and weren't afraid that they were creating a possible enemy. Voldemort was clearly putting on a show for the DE's lending evidence to theory # 3. But we also know how arrogant Voldie is, and it would seem that theory # 4 might have some credibility. So, was Crouch!Moody ordered to make it seem that Harry was a skillful wizard, or was he ordered to actually make Harry one? Thoughts? -Ing From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Sat Oct 19 07:58:29 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 07:58:29 -0000 Subject: TBAY:Imperious!Arthur was a VICTIM(new acronym) long! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45552 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% 20Files/hypotheticalley.\ It was a rather entertaining flight, Risti thought, as she soared high above Theory Bay on her Nimbus 2002. She noticed a couple of very interesting ships sailing about, and made a note not to put off visits to some of them in the near future, but right now, she had a more important task at hand. One of the most interesting ships of them all had suffered mutiny and brawls and was now under legal attention. She knew that Captain Veronica needed a loyal and very passionate crew member. Finally, Risti caught sight of the small boat. Even from her altitude she could see that the whole place was decorated in a festive theme. Risti began to descend towards the ship, and that's when she noticed that things weren't quite right. There were no people on the colorfully decorated ship. It looked positively abandonned. Even the banner reading 'ALL WELCOME' was starting to fall off in one corner. The whole place looked like it had been through a storm. She had heard about the mutiny and the brawl and now the trial on her flight over, of course, Wizarding World Network had kept her quite informed through her portable radio. She only wished that she would have headed straight over here as soon as she heard the theory. After all, she was the one who just a few short weeks ago put forth a post musing if Arthur Weasley could be related to the Imperius curse(44513). Landing aboard the ship, she noticed a cute redhead deck hand trying to balance a tray full of empty bottles. She put aside thoughts that he must be a Weasley to ask him a question. "Where can I find the Captain," Risti asked, the confidence in her voice surprising her. This was her first trip into Theory Bay, she'd expected to be alot more timid. "She's in her quarters Ma'am, but I don't know if you want to disturb her right now..." he trailed off, looking down at the bottles on his tray. Firewisky, Risti read, and sighed. "Listen, once you've placed those somewhere, do you think you could bring me a pot of coffee in the Captain's chambers? I need to talk to her, and I need to do it now before this gets any more out of hand." With that she walked off towards the door labelled 'Captain.' She knocked, and heard a few bangs inside the room, and then a voice that was very obviously drunk "There's got to be a parallel, you understand!" a hiccup interupted the dialogue, "JKR just wouldn't set up two kids like that and not finish up on the third." Risti opened up the door, and was suddenly overwhelmed by the smell of firewisky. "Who are you?" Veronica drawled, "Your not one of them, are you? I'm innocent I tell you, innocent!" "I'm not with them, Captain," Risti tried to reassure her, "I'm on your side, really, I am. I believed that Arthur had been put under Imperious before you even started this ship. I was on my way to help you when all of this broke out." "You believed me?" Veronica asked feebly, "I'm not crazy?" "No, you're not," Risti reasurred her, hoping that deckhand would arrive soon with the coffee. When he arrived moments later, Risti allowed Veronica to drink a full up before beginning to speak. "So who are you really? Why did you come here?" Veronica finally asked. "My name is Risti. I'm still rather new to these lists, but I must admit that I've always been Weasley obsessed. As to why I've came," Risti hesitated for a moment, "Originally, I came to just offer my support. I even had an idealistic notion of offering to be your first mate. After all, believe it or not, I actually sent out an idea out a while back with the subject 'The Secret Life of Arthur Weasley' and brought up the relation between the curse and the friendly man. You actually responded to it, posts 44513 and 44589. Then, when all the trouble began, I was going to play peacemaker. I really am a peacemaker at heart, and I couldn't stand to see a theory that I liked being picked apart. Now, well, remember how I told you that I had believed in Imperius!Arthur before you even started him? Well, I'm afraid *my* Imperius!Arthur is somewhat similar to both Operative!Arthur and Auror!Arthur." Risti paused, noticing that Veronica seemed ready to bring out her paddle again, and continued quickly. "Remember I said I wanted to be a peacemaker? I thought my idea could make everyone happy. As they continued bickering, however, I realized that I'd probably only make them more mad, and now the whole matter is in court..." "What exactly are you here to say?" Veronica interupted Risti's ramblings. Embaressed at the fact that she had gone on quite long without really saying anything, she knew she had to bring out her can (n)ons soon or risk getting thrown off the ship before she'd even gotten started. "Well, I began my Imperius!Arthur theory with the thought that there appears to be more to Arthur than meets the eye. His connections, his associations with Dumbledore, everything. At one point I even threw out a post relating to just this on this list. I believe you even said something to that affect," Risti said, hoping she'd be allowed to continue. "I believe I did say that in some of my conversations with Cindy. I was so open to her idea, and then look at what she did to me..." "I know that you have reservations. In your last response to me you didn't really agree with my reasoning, but I didn't present it very well then. I had scattered points, and I was trying to start debate rather then pound everyone with my theory, since I tend to get rather ignored when I do that. I still say there's something to my Quest for Immortality theory, but that doesn't belong here at all." Risti paused again, cursing herself mentally for digressing again. "I guess what I'm trying to say is this. Arthur Weasly has been a VICTIM." "A VICTIM?" Veronica asks, confused. "Yes, a VICTIM. A Very Intelligent Character Trampled by an Ignorant Ministry." "Ahh, I see," said Veronica, but clearly she didn't. "What exactly do you mean by that," she asked warily. She had just been under attack largely due to acronyms, and now this strange girl was bringing up a bunch of new ones. "Ok, I think we can all agree that the Ministry bungles up everything." For a moment there is a distant roar that is the entire list agreeing. "They didn't give Sirius a trial, they threw Hagrid in Azkaban, and they allowed Lucius Malfoy to walk free. Veronica continued to nod, sipping the coffee in front in her hand. She still wished it contained just a couple drops of something stronger, but for now she would endure Risti's thoughts. "Why do we then think that the Ministry is going to treat Arthur Weasley, innocent victim of the Imperius Curse, with all the fair justice that he deserves?" "You don't mean to say," Veronica's eyes were opened widely, "They wouldn't " "Wouldn't they? I dare anyone to give me canon that supports the Ministry making a rational decision that wasn't heavily influenced by Dumbledore. Heck, by the end of GoF, they won't even listen to Dumbledore anymore. I don't have all the holes filled in, but here's my version of the Imperius!Arthur tale." Risti said with a gleam in her eye. Veronica settled down in her chair, "With canon evidence?" she asked. "Yes, with canon evidence," Risti laughed. "I might even use some of those cannons to shoot out some BANG's." She paused for a moment to collect her thoughts. "Arthur Weasley played an active role in the battle against Voldemort. That much is obvious. Molly Weasley said after the World Cup that the last time Arthur had worked this late was during the Voldemort years. During that same incident it isn't considered odd that Arthur is actively searching out the Death Eaters (more so then Percy, Charlie, and Bill). Dumbledore obviously trusts him, as is evident in the conversation at the end of GoF and the fact that he seems to trust Harry in his care. Exactly what he did, I don't know, and I don't really care. I tend to lean more towards the Operative! Arthur angle then the Auror!Arthur angle mainly because it allows more freedom in what he did, but that's not important. All that really matters is that he had more power, more prestige, and assumedly more money then he does now." Risti paused for a breath, wishing that cute deckhand would come back with a drink for her. She was thirsty from all this talking. "And then it happened, the Imperius curse!" Veronica said excitedly, getting into the tale. "Exactly, the Imperius curse happened, and Arthur did something. Maybe it has to do with the Seventh Son theory, maybe it's something totally unrelated, but it happened. I am almost positive that it was Lucius Malfoy that put the curse on him in the first place." "Well then why didn't Arthur turn him in afterwards? I mean, that should have been evidence enough for the Ministry?" Veronica asked innocently. "Hah!" Risti said bitterly, "That is the very point I'm trying to make. It should have been enough, yes, but Arthur was a VICTIM. Lucius Malfoy has the entire Ministry wrapped around his finger. He got away with a lot more then putting Arthur Weasley under the Imperius curse. When Arthur went and told people that the reason he did whatever evil things he did was because Lucius Malfoy made him do it, the Ministry probably laughed in his face. Then, after a lengthy trial that included his brief stint in Azkaban, expensive legal bills, and a lot of character witnesses including Dumbledore, he was let off pretty easy: A demotion, probably a fine, and a life time of Lucius Malfoy smirking to his face." "Ooh, if I could get my hands on that Malfoy " Veronica said with an evil grin on her face. "What do you think Arthur has spent the last however many years trying to do? Almost from the beginning the relationship between the Weasley's and the Malfoy's has had a strong focus of Arthur trying to prove Lucius's guilt. Might he have a reason deeper then we are led to believe?" Veronica sat for a moment, thinking. "It's a decent theory, but I'll have to think about it. Do you have anything else to say, or can I get around to doing some repairs on my ship?" "Actually, I think I might be able to help you with that," Risti said, a trace of nervousness in her voice now that her baby was out and vulnerable. "It's about the classroom scene." "What about it? Don't tell me you're going to argue against the parallelism." "Not exactly," Risti bit her lip, and then continued when she saw Veronica's eyes begin to cloud over. "Don't get me wrong, I love the idea. I'm a literary nut, those are my favorite types of references, but well, I'd like to reinforce it against the arguments put up against it lately with some solid canon fact. First of all, I don't believe that Arthur Weasley would put the Imperius curse on someone. Arthur is known as a `Muggle-Lover.' Inside of the wizarding world, muggles are commonly thought of as being quite dull, able to be manipulated by the simplest of magic, and generally taken advantage of. Arthur Weasley is the exception to this. I believe that this goes further then just thinking muggle-born witches and wizards are `ok.' His job by definition protects muggles from careless wizards who misplaced their nuclear-bomb-in-a-pen." Veronica raised her eyebrows. Risti sighed, "Ok, so that's a slight exaggeration. The point is, he protects people from being taken advantage of. That's exactly what the Imperius curse does. He also defends Hermione's point about the treatment of House Elves. Again, he's coming to the rescue of those who have no choice in what they can do, and are essentially being taken advantage of by those more powerful then themselves. I personally think that this is evidence of a lasting impact of the curse on his character, and proof that he wouldn't perform the curse on anyone if he hadn't put under it. I mean, think about it, would Arthur Weasley really perform the Imperius curse on anyone?" "Of course not! I've been trying to tell them that all along," Veronica insisted. "Another thing. Forget the classroom, and go to the other place where the Unforgivable curses were discussed in GoF." "Someone other then Moody/Crouch brings them up?" "You'd better believe it. Sirius does. Now, Sirius had just proclaimed the trio `too young' for the political rant he was going on, and Ron told him to `Try us, why don't you.'(pg 456, Canadian Hardcover). He then goes on to explain about how `Aurors were given new powers-powers to kill rather than capture, for instance'(notice that it's kill, and not `put under Imperius') and that `Crouch authorized the use of the Unforgivable Curses against suspects.' Now, don't you think that Sirius, not being completely in tune with whatever decision Arthur had told his family, might have let a `but surely you know all about this Ron' slip from his lips if Arthur was in a position where he would be authorized to do this." Veronica looked as if she was thinking over all of this new information. "So how else can I help you clean this place up?" Risti asked after a moment's silence. "Well, you did promise me a BANG And are you saying that Arthur has just sat around and looked at cursed china sets for the last fifteen plus years. After all, you're the one who said there appears to be more to him then meets the eye," Veronica said slowly. "That's right, I did promise you a bang, and no, Arthur hasn't sat around and looked at china sets for the last fifteen plus years. Like I said earlier, he's tried to find evidence against Lucius. He's tried to raise the second half of his family in a more normal environment then the first half grew up in. He's been there as a supporter of Dumbledore. I also believe that most of the Ministry really didn't believe that he was really guilty of anything major. Otherwise they would have sent him away to Azkaban. It's because of his earlier position, whatever it was, that people still look up to him. I mean, the Malfoy's are the only family we see really opposed to the Weasley's, even if they are poor. That's why he is still valuable to Dumbledore as a contact inside of the Ministry." "And the bang is?" Veronica said hopefully. "One of the major ideas proposed for the end of the series is that many characters would overcome the shortcomes in their life, and that conquest's Lord Voldemort thought he had made would suddenly come undone. Other examples of these are Neville playing a bigger role, as well as Hagrid, obviously everything that surrounds Harry and Lord Voldemort's resurrection, Snape playing a key role, etc. I believe that Arthur Weasley will ultimately be the undoing of Lucius Malfoy. The reason? Lucius performed an unforgivable curse, Arthur knows it, and one day people are going to believe him. He may have been a VICTIM, but he won't remain one." ~Risti, who doesn't think her first entry into Theory Bay turned out as well as she hoped it would and certainly longer, wonders if she is going to regret having written most of it very late at night, and knows that despite all of this, she is hooked. From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 19 08:17:34 2002 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (mitchbailey82) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 08:17:34 -0000 Subject: Imperius!Weasleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45553 There has been lots of discussion about the parallelism in the scene where Moody shows Harry's class the unforgivable curses. In fact it is one of the major canons for both imperius!Arthur and imperius!Molly. The theory being Moody highlighted Neville with the cruciatus curse because of his parents and he highlighted Harry with the AK because of his parents and therefore as he highlighted Ron with the imperius curse Ron's parents must have had experience with it to keep the parallelism. However the two theories focus on either Molly or Arthur being effected by it. However: Neville was highlighted with the cruciatus curse because BOTH his parents are in St Mungos because they were BOTH attacked by the curse. Harry was highlighted with AK because BOTH his parents are dead because they were BOTH attacked by AK. Therefore for the parallelism to truly exist in this scene Moody must have highlighted Ron because BOTH his parents were placed under the imperius curse. Look at what Moody says about the imperius curse shortly after acknowledging that Ron's Dad would know that one "Years back there were a lot of witches and wizards being controlled by the imperius curse" Why highlight both witches and wizards why not say a lot of people were surely muggles were also affected by this curse? I propose that imperius!Molly and imperius!Arthur are not mutually exclusive. And continuing with the parallelism and looking at the time spans in the other cases: There isn't much of a gap (minutes maybe) between James and Lily being killed/ attacked with the AK. It also seems that Neville's parents were attacked with the crucio at the same time. I believe that Molly and Arthur would have been both attacked with the imperius within a short time span of each other (if not at the same time). Now all we need is an acronym How about ICE CREAM Imperius Curse Enslaving Controlled Reluctantly Ensnared Arthur & Molly Not bad for my first acronym (even if I do say so myself) Michelle From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Oct 19 09:01:43 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 05:01:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Weasley by any other name...[was: Second Daughter T... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45554 > Rebecca Stephens wrote: > > I'm not sure Ginny is Virgina. I didn't think that > > was a common name in England. It could be Ginny, > > I'm > > not discounting that. But I'm not assuming it > > either. > > > > > > Rebecca > > I meant to write "It could be Virginia, I'm not > discounting that." > > > Actually, Virginia is *not* un uncommon name in England. It's not terribly fashionable now, but I had a best friend at school called Virginia, then there was Virginia Wade, the tennis star, Virginia Woolf the novelist.... Honestly, from my perspective, it is the only name *likely* to be abbreviated to 'Ginny'. Others have suggested 'Imogene', which I *think* is an American version of Imogen (pronounced differently; I have never come across and English Imogene). I have a daughter called Imogen and no-one has *ever* come up with that shortened form (probably because of the English emphasis on the first, rather than the last syllable). Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From potter76 at libero.it Sat Oct 19 10:38:24 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 12:38:24 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Classist Hogwarts (was ... was .... was...) References: <4.2.0.58.20021019043643.009be100@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <3DB13620.000001.59215@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 45555 Gulm Plum wrote in a discussion I'd love to join but I've got hundreds of pages to study before Monday and I can't afford to spend more than 5 minutes on this: << what about Black Dean Thomas or Lee Jordan>> This bit of info is really new to me, does it say in the books both Dean and Lee are black? Because I can't remember it. I never thought that dreadlocks could be enough to assume that someone is black, when I read Lee s description in Ps I simply thought he was just a hip teen of the Nineties! Or maybe their names and surnames are tipically black?TMTMNBN, which I know is as far from canon as possible, doesn't seem to place any black kid in Harry's year ( but I only saw the movie once, so I may be wrong), while there's a Black Lee, as both characters will be in every movie and possibly become more important to the story I guess that JKR would have told clearly to the casting people that they nedded a Black boy to play Dean and one to play Lee. R. From abigailnus at yahoo.com Sat Oct 19 12:58:36 2002 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 12:58:36 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Auror!Arthur Strikes Back In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45556 It's late at night. Cindy is still awake in her cabin aboard the Imperius!Arthur, and no wonder - the noise being made by all those Seventh Sons and Second Daughters is enough to keep anyone awake - and Imperius!Molly is being no help at all. Also, for some strange reas= on, the ship is listing to one side, and Cindy just can't figure out why. But = rather then trouble herself with matters of engineering - which are surely = Veronica's business anyway, as Captain - she has decided to nail everything in her cabin down. Her work is interrupted by a soft noise in the hall. Cindy pauses. Has one of those little brats made his way below-decks? And after baby-proofing the ship all afternoon! She resumes her work, and then she hears the sound again, and again. Coming closer. "Is anyone out there?" Cindy cries, reaching for her paddle. The solid oak door of the Operative!Arthur cabin bursts into a million slivers of wood. As Cindy ducks under her desk she notices the white-hot remains of her lovely plaque flying over her head and embedding themselves in the wall. "Cindy," Calls a familiar yet strangely altered voice, "Show yourself!" Cindy rises imperiously, ready to face any dangers, and then starts when she recognizes the visitor. "Abigail? Is that you?" Abigail is hardly recognizable. Her hair is matted and hangs in clumps around her gaunt face. And her eyes - her eyes burn. "Bet you didn't think I'd be coming back, did you Cindy?" She sneers. Cindy is flummoxed. "Yes I did. I was expecting all of you back this afternoon. You were pardoned, remember? Captain Veronica and I were waiting for the three of you at the bus stop - we had cake and everything. Where were you?" She gives Abigail's appearance an appraising look. "You can't expect me to believe that's all from Azkaban. You were only there a few hours." "DO YOU KNOW WHAT THEY DID TO ME THERE?" Abigail roars. "Do you? They. Called. My. Mother." She closes her eyes as if unable to face the memory. "My mother, who made me promise never to go near the 'BAY until I graduated." Abigail gives Cindy an especially hateful look. "She threatened to cut me off." Cindy gives a shrug. "So you'll be leaving then?" She asks, cheerfully. Abigail smiles, but the smile never quite reaches her eyes. "Oh no. I explained to my mother that I have unfinished business on this ship. Business with you, Cindy. I'm going to get you off this ship before you sink it." "Sink it? Pshaw." Cindy sits down, relaxing. She's dealt with this kind = of lunatic many times before. "There's nothing wrong with the ship that a few nails won't fix." "The ship is listing to one side." Abigail cries, exasperated. "You have destroyed the delicate balance of the Holy Unforgivable Lesson Trinity." "What are you talking about?" Replies Cindy. "I dealt with the Holy Trinity in your second trial. I posited that Lucius Malfoy killed Seventh Son and then used the Imperius defense to get out of being punished for it. Neville was affected by Cruciatus. Harry was affected by AK. And Operative!Arthur says that Ron was affected by Imperius ?- and the instrument of that victimization was Lucius Malfoy who claimed to be acting under the Imperius Curse. The parallel holds." "What?" Abigail can't believe what she's hearing. "The parallel does *not* hold. Neville's parents had Cruciatus used on them. Harry's parents had AK used on them. And Ron's father lost a legal battle due to the Imperius defense? Why, according to that argument, there never was even an Imperius spell cast, on anyone! Not only have you unbalanced the Holy Trinity - you've made it unnecessary. And you've undermined the structural integrity of the ship by making the entire theory dependant on Seventh Son!" Abigail pulls out a wand and points it directly at Cindy's heart. "Don't think I don't know what you're doing, Cindy. You're trying to take over the ship - a cabin isn't enough for you - you want an Operative!Arthur trimaran! And I know why you're doing it too." "You mean apart from wanting my own ship?" Asks Cindy, looking rather nonplussed for someone with a wand pointing at their heart. "Yes." Abigail says coldly. "You're doing it because you know, in your heart, that Operative!Arthur doesn't hold up under Imperius!Arthur." Cindy blanches. "That's...that's not true!" She stammers. "Oh yeah?" Sneers Abigail. "Then why weren't you able to respond to my three-pronged attack?" "What are you talking about?" Cindy's beginning to relax again. The woman is obviously halucinating. "I blew your three-pronged attack straight out of the water and kept the pieces for myself. Take the first prong." "That's where I argued that, at the QWC, Arthur is awfully casual about Unspeakables Bode and Croaker. I mean, he up and volunteers that information. Hardly spy behaviour." For someone who has been told that her attack has been blown out of the water, Abigail looks awfully calm. Almost as if she's enjoying herself. "Not a problem," Cindy says. "Remember, Arthur is in deep cover *and* posing as a Muggle Artifacts guy. He's supposed to be popular enough and well connected enough to get Top Box tickets for his whole family and guests. Obviously, the *existence* of the Department of Mysteries is hardly a big secret. The crowd in the Pensieve certainly understands its significance. So when Arthur sees Bode and Croaker -? two low-level guys who aren't undercover at all ?- he naturally identifies = them, but doesn't reveal what the Department of Mysteries *does.* Just like any good operative posing as an affable, popular Muggle Artifacts specialist would." "I see." Says Abigail, still damnably calm. "So of the myriad of people that canon tells us were swarming around the Weasley tent, Arthur just picks his two colleagues - people who Harry might not even have noticed without his prompting - and volounteers their names and occupation and the fact that they are top-secret? Just to stay in character? Roo even suggested that Arthur was so in character that he slipped up by identifying Bode and Croaker and over-compensated for it by assuring Harry that he had no idea what they do. This is the man who has been snowing his wife, children, and entire social circle since at = least the first Voldemort war, right?" Abigail plops down in a chair and props her muddy boots on Cindy's desk. "Sure." "But the second prong." Cindy continues. "I just took that away from you. That's when you suggested that everything about Unspeakables, from their department to their job title to the names of two Unspeakables that we've met indicates darkness. See, that makes Operative!Arthur even more Bangy! Oh, he deals in the dirtiest, lowest, darkest depths of MoM, handling the worst of the worst. No wonder he has a family clock with 'Mortal Peril' as one of the settings. Fits right i= n, I'd say. Hey, what are looking around for?" Abigail, who has been craning her head to get a good look at every corner of the Operative!Arthur cabin, returns her gaze to Cindy. "Just wondering where you were hiding your MAGIC DISHWASHER, that's all." She smiles at Cindy's confused expression. "I mean, if you're willing to believe in an Arthur who is, on the outside, kind, curteous, a bit bumbling, and prone to losing his temper when someone hits too close to home, and yet is actually a cool Operative who has been lying to his family for years while dealing with all the darkness the wizarding world has to offer... Well, you must find Dishwasher!Dumbledore right up your alley. Not to mention that you completely twisted the meaning of the second prong. I wasn't suggesting that the Unspeakables dealt with darkness - after all, Moody and the Aurors dealt with Dark Wizards, and yet their very job title suggests light. No, what I was saying was that the Unspeakables themselves were dark - and that just doesn't sit with the Arthur Weasley that we've come to know, or with the idea that Dumbledore has recruited him into the New Crowd." Cindy's getting a bit concerned, but she's still got a fine arsenal. "Alright, lets say that you're right, but the third prong..." Cindy suddenly shuts up and turns very pale. "The third prong!" Abigail cries, ebulient. "The one you never even bothered to acknowledge, Cindy! Oh, I was so hoping that you'd be the one to mention it. The fact is, you completely misrepresented the Wizarding law enforcement system when you suggested that Aurors were wizarding cops. The Aurors are dark wizards catchers, which leaves no work having to do with the coming battle for the Unspeakables." "But, but.. Unspeakables could belong to different departments!" Cries Cindy. "It could have been Arthur's job to liaise with Moody and the Aurors and pass them information, whereas Bode and Croaker worked for the Department of Mysteries..." Cindy's voice dies down as she sees Abigail reach into one of her many pockets and carefully begin to unwrap a small package. "For you, Cindy." Abigail says quietly, as she sticks the yellow flag on Cindy's desk. "I've been saving it since Azkaban." Cindy gulps, but, Abigail notes, she's not beaten yet. "Alright, so lets say there are some problems with Arthur as an Unspeakable." "That is my biggest problem with Operative!Arthur." Abigail concedes. "But you still haven't knocked Operative!Arthur out of the water." Cindy insists. "Arthur could have been an operative without being an Unspeakable. And unlike Auror!Arthur, Operative!Arthur isn't going to be hacked to bits by Occam's Razor. See, Auror!Arthur requires a towering heap of canon leaps to work. First, you have to negotiate the whole Unforgivable Trilogy Parallelism gymnastics." "Not at all, if you accept that Arthur was once placed under Imperius." Interrupts Abigail. "Right, but then you have to run the gauntlet that Arthur would keep his role as an Auror secret and that he would later allow himself to be shunted aside into Muggle Artifacts." Abigail sighs. "Once again, Imperius!Arthur explains all that away. Not to mention that there are several ways of explaining that away without Imperius!Arthur." "Yes, that's when you called Imperius!Arthur *unnecessary*, didn't you?" Cindy smiles as Abigail winces. "Anyway, you still have to bungee jump off of the "Why did Arthur take Charlie to work and pose as a Muggle Artifacts guy way back when" bridge." "Whoa, whoa, whoa!" Yells Abigail. "Take Charlie to work. Yes. Pose as a Muggle Artifacts guy? Where in canon does it say that?" She gives Cindy a sidelong look. "Do you want *another* yellow flag? Haven't you read Elkins' original introduction of Imperius!Arthur? She suggests that the older Weasley boys, Bill and Charlie, know a lot more about their father's past then the younger children. She suggests that Bill's eagerness to bring his father the news of Voldemort's reemergance personally stems from his knowledge of his father's past with the DEs as an Imperius victim. There's no reason why Charlie wouldn't know what his father used to do before Voldemort fell, and simply have been very strongly cautioned against saying anything to the younger children. Unlike Opeative!Arthur at the QWC, however, I can buy that Charlie might slip up here and there, especially after a long = sleepless night and the excitement of seeing the Dark Mark." "Alright," Cindy admits, "but you have to dodge hostile fire to establish some Major Guilt motive for Arthur to maintain this whole big secret for all these years." "And I suppose being placed under Imperius isn't enough to make a man feel guilty?" Asks Abigail. "Not to mention the shame - I can certainly understand why Arthur wouldn't want his children to know anything about his failure." Cindy is having none of it. "But finally, you have to saddle up and ride the whole 'Dumbledore seeks out Arthur upon Voldemort's return knowing Arthur is vulnerable to Imperius.'" "You mean when there are so many people invulnerable to Imperius just lying around?" Abigail asks, one eyebrow raised. "Let's face it - everyone is vulnerable to Imperius - even Harry, he's just the guy who resists it the fastest. Crouch Jr. took ten years to get out from his father's Imperius. Crouch Sr. managed it significantly less time, but he was insane when he did. And we have no evidence that Moody - Moody the Auror - ever escaped the Imperius placed on him. There's a reason why it's an Unforgivable curse. Dumbledore simply sees that Arthur's strenghs - his Auror past, his love of Muggles, his wide network of contacts in the Ministry - far outweigh his weaknesses. And let's face = it, Dumbledore has just alienated the Minister of Magic - he can't afford to be picky as far as his contacts in the Ministry are concerned." "The fact is," Abigail continues, "that you have tried to seperate Imperius!Arthur from Auror!Arthur and Operative!Arthur because while Auror!Arthur can only be strenghened by the idea that Arthur was Imperius-ed, Operative!Arthur falls apart under it. Not only does the Holy Trinity collapse, but you're left trying to explain how anyone with a weakness for Imperius could ever be made a spy. Dumbledore has an excuse - what's the MoM's?" Cindy rallies imperiously. "You can't expect to sit here and take all this= from someone who suffers from *Acronym-Envy*?" "Not anymore!" Cries Abigail. "I had a lot of free time in Azkaban, and I came up with SCRABBLE BOARD - Sweet, Curteous, Responsible Arthur Bade Bye-bye to Law Enforcement: BreakOut Auror - Retired Dad." Cindy's expression remains stony. "It's not bad for a first effort." Cindy studiously avoids Abigail's eyes. "But what about your compromise theory?" She asks. "Past-Auror-Present-Operative!Arthur? You know, the one you thought was so bangy?" "Oh, I've given up on that." Abigails says breezily. "And it's all your d= oing too. I really had a revelation when you said that Imperius!Arthur, Unwill= ing Fillicide was *too bangy* - which I totally agree with, by the way. I came= to the conclusion that Auror!Arthur, especially when taken with Imperius!Arthu= r, is plenty bangy, and provides plenty of FEATHERBOA potential for the coming= battle, without turning Arthur into Dishwasher!Arthur." Abigail gets up and places both hand on Cindy's desk, leaning into her. "Face it, Cindy, you have no choice. If you accept Imperius!Arthur, then Operative!Arthur collapses into Auror!Arthur. If you don't, then you are a danger to everyone on this vessel, and it is time for you to gather your things and GET OFF THIS SHIP." Still smiling, Abigail straightens up and brings out her wand again. "Your decision, Cindy?" She asks. "I'm waiting." Abigail From Ali at zymurgy.org Sat Oct 19 13:50:50 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 13:50:50 -0000 Subject: Accents in the WW was Stan Shunpike's accent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45557 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sydney" wrote: > I haven't lived in England very long, but it's been long enough for > me to appreciate the exceptional bitterness of the class issue, > which in terms of psychic angst is closer to the race issue in the > US than to anything else. Hmn, I'm not sure that I can agree with that. Class is an issue in Britain, but I don't believe that for the majority of the population it carries with it "psychic angst". People like to be proud of their "working class roots". "Posh" accents are often ridiculed, and yet, regional accents are often diluted as careers take off. Historically we have been very "classist". This hasn't disappeared, but diluted yes. Class is now officially defined by socio-economic methods and the traditional classifications are becoming redundant. Sydney goes on to say:- > I've come across a number of posts regarding this young man's > education, and as far as I can tell the only evidence advanced > that he DIDN'T go to Hogwarts, is that of his broad London > cockney. It is naturally assumed, that Hogwarts student's > accents would gravitate towards a Merlin's English Standard, so > in deviating from this, Stan is showing his muddy boots and > state schooling. > SNIP:- Analysis of Stan's different speeches:- > My feeling about Stan is that: > > -- he's a wizard, so he went to Hogwarts. Period. Where he > aquired the ability, when he chooses, to speak MES (Merlin > English Standard) > > -- he's London born, and till age 11, bred. Hence, "nuffink". > > -- I'll guess Muggle-born, because he a) didn't have the > connections to get a better job out of school (class DOES count, > after all), and b) was even more terrified than your avarage > wizard at the meniton of Voldemort: "Me 'eart's goin' that fast..." I have a slightly different take on the accent issue. If we are to take the Weasleys, Hagrid etc as the norm; wizards seem to have little contact with their Muggle neighbours. IMO the fact that their material possessions and use of technology pin them in the past confirms this. Wizards use Floo powder, broomsticks and apparition mean that they can easily socialise with other wizards in Britain at least. Is it not a fact that our accents tend to conform to those we spend our time with? Why then do Hagrid and Stan appear to have notably different accents from the majority of wizards we come across? I can understand Muggle-borns arriving at Hogwarts with regional muggle accents. But, I am inclined to believe that their accents would soon conform to their WW-born counterparts - whether subconsciously or not. It is my belief that the WW would have it's own accent, segregated as they appear to be from the Muggle World. My interpretation of canon is however that they speak standard BBC English - Merlin English if you wish! Muggle-borns who seem to take to wizarding robes, fires and quills instead of the modern-muggle alternatives are not likely to "show" themselves by keeping a different accent. Perhaps linguistic experts will disagree, but don't accents change and merge according to the company we keep? As an example, an Australian friend has recently returned to Sydney after a 3 year stint in Britain. Her accent has changed so much that she is now called "English Liz" I am inclined to think that the different accents which JKR uses for Stan and Hagrid are given for comic, literary purpose only. They do however militate against her vision of a classless Hogwarts. We are given the impression that wizards in unprofessional roles have regional accents compared to the BBC accents of those who do not. If JKR portrayed students with strong regional accents, then I would have no trouble accepting Hagrid's "killins" etc. The fact that they don't, leads to the impression of class as an issue. This is contrary to the care taken to show us that milkmens children, manor-born children and poverty stricken children all have a rightful claim to a Hogwarts place. BTW I'm deliberately blurring the distinction between Hogwarts specifically and the WW in general. My argument being that ex-pupils of Hogwarts would probably have a fairly standard accent. This might be an argument in favour of there being some kind of wizarding apprentise system or alternate education. However, I don't believe this to be the case. The places of Hagrid and Neville at Hogwarts would be hard to justify - on evidence to date, if there was a different system for them. Why would a near-squib (Neville) attend Hogwarts but say Stan not?* *Perhaps this is an argument for Neville not showing his true abilities yet... Ali Who has a slight London accent which gets stronger when she is nervous or merry - but which also changes according to who she's talking to. > . From squireandknight at yahoo.com Sat Oct 19 15:01:02 2002 From: squireandknight at yahoo.com (Becky) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 15:01:02 -0000 Subject: Where's the Bang?/Hogwarts Houses (Was: RE: House assumptions) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45558 Alright, thanks to the recent influx of MWPP/Four Houses posts, I've decided to sit back and think about why I dislike the idea so much. Ignoring my belief that there is a large lack of supporting evidence for the theory, I think I dislike it mainly for the glamorizing of the House issue. I mean, what's the point? Without trying to sound too much like Cindy - where's the Bang? So, Harry finds out Sirius/Remus/James was a Slytherin. ::crickets chirping:: OK, back to our regular program of Voldemort vs. Harry! ;-) It's just, where exactly are the Four Houses people going with this? Why is it important? Aside from a momentary surprise on Harry's part, I can't see it making much of a difference. Maybe something to do with the dreaded "P" incident? Maybe an explanation for Snape joining the DE's or spying for Voldemort? Evidence that Sirius and Severus were once fantastic friends? ::shakes head:: There just doesn't seem to be enough canonical evidence and too little to gain, for me to want to join the FH crowd. Apart from that, I've never been that fond of the idea that what House you got into really mattered (outside of Hogwarts that is ;-)). Aside from a few old grudges against old rivals, I just really hate the idea that people from the Gryffindor and Slytherin Houses have some lifelong blood feud. So, I ask, just how big an impact do the Four Houses have on the various alumni? Is LV just using his Heir of Slytherin/last remaining descendent to make up for his Muggle father - not because it's some grand/awe-inspiring position? Do the DE's follow LV because of his ancestry, or because they agree with his goals, and respect/fear his power? Is it more important to people that LV is the Heir of Slytherin or a Parselmouth? This also tends to be my problem with the "Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor" theories, and it has nothing to do with Destiny vs. Choice. Just why does it matter if Harry's descended from Gryffindor? Sure, the Founders are said to have been the most powerful witches and wizards of their times, but Dumbledore has the same things said about him, and I'm not really expecting his multi-great-grandchild to have some destiny laid on him because of it. I always start to wince when I have an image of the whole HP series turning out to be some massive House conflict. I really hope that that's not how it's going to end. Becky From karnasaur at yahoo.com Sat Oct 19 10:03:49 2002 From: karnasaur at yahoo.com (Kristjan Arnason) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 03:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: missing daughter theory In-Reply-To: <1034991011.3905.33211.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021019100349.48307.qmail@web10412.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45559 Hi, It's an interesting, though almost completely unprovable (for now) thread. Here's a thought I had. Ron, of course, went to Hogwarts with second hand robes, etc. handed down from his brothers. I don't have the books with me, so I can't check this. Did Chamber of Secrets say that Ginny had new robes made, or get other new things (other than books)? If it didn't, it might suggest that she was given the robes of a theoretical, possibly deceased, sister. If she did get new robes, it might suggest that there was no missing sister. Of course, if she did get new robes it doesn't prove that there was no missing sister, since I suspect that her parents might not want there youngest child going to school in a dead girl's clothes. But, being poor, they may have had to. Just a thought. Kris __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From alina at distantplace.net Sat Oct 19 16:43:00 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 12:43:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: missing daughter theory References: <20021019100349.48307.qmail@web10412.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000801c2778e$969984e0$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45560 > Chamber of Secrets say that Ginny had new robes made, > or get other new things (other than books)? If it > didn't, it might suggest that she was given the robes > of a theoretical, possibly deceased, sister. > Kris Mrs. Weasely said something along the lines of, "I imagine we can get a lot of Ginny's things second-hand." Something like that. So I suppose there's actually a "second-hand robes" shop somewhere in Diagon Alley. Certainly we haven't seen ALL the shops that are there, only the ones Harry deemed important enough to notice. The first time he was in DA, he might've simply not passed by a second-hand shop, and the subsequent times he knew he had enough money to buy new things and probably wouldn't have paid much attention to such places, even if he saw them. What I'm driving at is that it seems Ginny went to school in robes that were bought from a used clothing store. Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 02/08/2002 From jodel at aol.com Sat Oct 19 17:24:18 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 13:24:18 EDT Subject: Imperius!Weasleys Message-ID: <140.c4c971.2ae2ef42@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45561 Michelle writes; >>However: Neville was highlighted with the cruciatus curse because BOTH his parents are in St Mungos because they were BOTH attacked by the curse. Harry was highlighted with AK because BOTH his parents are dead because they were BOTH attacked by AK. Therefore for the parallelism to truly exist in this scene Moody must have highlighted Ron because BOTH his parents were placed under the imperius curse. << Or their (adolescent) third child was, who attempted to murder them and they had to A. restrain him and B. turn him over to Chrouch's brand of justice? -JOdel, who is being facetious this week... From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat Oct 19 17:55:36 2002 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 17:55:36 -0000 Subject: The Azkaban Effect On Hardened Criminals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45562 > The Dementors feed on joy and other good emotions, leaving their victim > paralyzed by depression. What if an incarcerated person has little or no > emotional content that the Dementors can feed on? > > SO, inmates like the LeStranges (who, as far as we know at the end of GoF, > are still alive) may also have found ways to remain sane in Azkaban. I'm > very much afraid that they will come out far more evil than when they went > in. Oh, I'm sure somehow the LeStranges, or at least Mrs., will get out of Azkaban somehow before the series is over. And, they may have stayed sane the same way that Sirius did. Not by focusing on their innocence, but perhaps by focusing on how horrible and unfair life was - they had almost completed their mission for WW domination with Voldie, and then that damn baby destroys him in the wreckage of the Potters' house. So, sure, they could use their anger to maintain their sanity. Of course, if you've earned all your DE merit badges, some of the best times of your life may have been spent murdering, torturing, pillaging and generally creating mayhem. If this is your idea of what makes life worth living, would the Dementors be able to discern how twisted those emotions are? Or could they feed on those emotions anyway, because to a DE, those *are* happy memories? Marianne From mandrin_orange88 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 19 15:24:42 2002 From: mandrin_orange88 at hotmail.com (llamas_my_luv81) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 15:24:42 -0000 Subject: Imperious Molly! In-Reply-To: <01b001c276f0$3860ece0$e3510043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45563 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > > > > Hello all- I am a little afraid to jump in on this topic, but here > > goes- What if Molly was the one responsible for the theorized missing > > Weasley child? > > First- A large gap in ages between Bill and Charlie and the rest of > > the family has been thought to indicate a missing, presumably dead, > > Weasley child. The Imperious Arthur theory says that Mr. Weasely is > > the one responsible, having been forced by the curse. > > > > > > Imperious Molly works a little better. Molly would be home, alone > > with only her small children, in an isolated house.A De could easily > > suprise her, put her under the curse, make her kill her child, and > > then leave. She is an easier target, if the purpose was only to > > terrorize. Then when Arthur comes home from a day of work, he will > > find the Dark Mark hovering over his house, like the quote above. > > Hi! I like that theory, to me it makes a lot more sense than the ones about Arthur. I do see one problem however. If the death eater came into the house to put molly under the curse, then why not just kill the child him/herself? It could (and would) still cause terror in the Weasly house. But maybe they meant to not only cause terror, but to psychologically damage. Killing your daughter would certainly be damaging. -Helen From jadethe2nd at yahoo.com Sat Oct 19 16:29:48 2002 From: jadethe2nd at yahoo.com (Jade) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 09:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Black Dean Thomas and Lee Jordan (was Classist Hogwarts) In-Reply-To: <1035033280.987.52709.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021019162948.18382.qmail@web21412.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45564 > > << what about Black Dean Thomas or Lee Jordan>> > > This bit of info is really new to me, does it say > in the books both Dean > and Lee are black? Because I can't remember it. I > never thought that > dreadlocks could be enough to assume that someone is > black, when I read Lee > s description in Ps I simply thought he was just a > hip teen of the Nineties! > Or maybe their names and surnames are tipically > black?TMTMNBN, which I > know is as far from canon as possible, doesn't seem > to place any black kid > in Harry's year ( but I only saw the movie once, so > I may be wrong), while > there's a Black Lee, as both characters will be in > every movie and possibly > become more important to the story I guess that JKR > would have told clearly > to the casting people that they nedded a Black boy > to play Dean and one to > play Lee. > R. Dean Thomas is indeed played by a black boy in TMTMNBN (I found a picture at http://www.nasubionna.net/hp/movie/mdeanportrait.jpg ). Aditionally, in the American version of PS/SS Dean is described as 'a Black boy even taller than Ron' (see http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/differences-ss.html ). Since there isn't any evidence to the contrary (and even though I've got the British versions of the books myself) I see Dean as Black. About Lee Jordan... I don't remember reading anything about him being Black. Then again, I don't remember reading anything that would contradict his being Black. As you said, since he is Black in TMTMNBN and JKR did have SOME influence over the casting process, it is logical that JKR sees him as Black. However, this evidence is definitely NOT conclusive. Are there any other students who have been mentioned as being Black? Also, let's not forget Cho Chang and the Patil twins. AFAIK, all evidence points to these people being Asian, which in turn points to not all the students at Hogwarts being white, or even British for that matter... Any other thoughts on the matter? Jade :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From msbonsai at mninter.net Sat Oct 19 17:33:28 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 17:33:28 -0000 Subject: question about Harry the Dursleys and presents Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45565 Hi! I was wondering, I'm almost positive I heard someone before say that Harry had never received presents before Hagrid gave him Hedwig. Maybe I'm wrong. But I am rereading the books again, slowly before the 5th book comes out soon, and I notice that in SS Harry mentions his birthdays never being exactly fun, but that he'd been given a coat hanger and a pair of Uncle Vernon's old socks. I can almost reason then that the Dursleys would think it abnormal not to receive presents for Christmas and birthdays, and perhaps this is why they send him little stupid things all year round? Julie From msbonsai at mninter.net Sat Oct 19 17:36:51 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 17:36:51 -0000 Subject: Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45566 Do you think these words will be coming back to haunt us later in the series? Perhaps it is some sort of charm spell that continues to help protect Harry? Has this been discussed before? Julie From alina at distantplace.net Sat Oct 19 19:28:46 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 15:28:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Black Dean Thomas and Lee Jordan (was Classist Hogwarts) References: <20021019162948.18382.qmail@web21412.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003501c277a5$bef48400$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45567 > Are there any other students who have been mentioned > as being Black? > > Any other thoughts on the matter? > > Jade I believe in GoF when Angelina put her name into the Goblet, she was mentioned as being black. Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 02/08/2002 From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 19 19:48:01 2002 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 19:48:01 -0000 Subject: question about Harry the Dursleys and presents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45568 Julie wrote- > I was wondering, I'm almost positive I heard someone before say that > Harry had never received presents before Hagrid gave him Hedwig. > Maybe I'm wrong. But I am rereading the books again, slowly before > the 5th book comes out soon, and I notice that in SS Harry mentions > his birthdays never being exactly fun, but that he'd been given a > coat hanger and a pair of Uncle Vernon's old socks. > > I can almost reason then that the Dursleys would think it abnormal > not to receive presents for Christmas and birthdays, and perhaps this > is why they send him little stupid things all year round? > I think it was meant as Harry had never recieved a proper present from anyone. A coat hanger and a pair of vile socks aren't exactly something Harry would want or need, especially when compared to the gifts showered on Dudley. The Dursley's might send Harry gifts, as lame as they maybe, so that they could at least say, "Well,we always sent the boy something at the holidays!" if ever questioned or accused by Harry about their treatment of him. -Olivia Grey From potter76 at libero.it Sat Oct 19 21:02:23 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 23:02:23 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Black Dean Thomas and Lee Jordan (was Classist Hogwarts) References: <20021019162948.18382.qmail@web21412.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3DB1C85F.000001.40497@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 45569 Jade: Dean Thomas is indeed played by a black boy in TMTMNBN (I found a picture at http://www.nasubionna.net/hp/movie/mdeanportrait.jpg ). Aditionally, in the American version of PS/SS Dean is described as 'a Black boy even taller than Ron' (see http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/differences-ss.html ). Me: I told that I might have been wrong about the movie, and so I was. Jade: Since there isn't any evidence to the contrary (and even though I've got the British versions of the books myself) I see Dean as Black. Me: But why do you? It's because of the movie or at the time of your first reading of PS ( which,, however, I don't know if it came beore the movie or not) you had the feeling that Dean was Black? It's ths that I'm most curious about, if from the little that it's known about Dean ( and Lee) one can safely assume that he's black. Again, i say that I don't recall anything pointing at their 'race', but maybe it's just my bad memory. Jade: Also, let's not forget Cho Chang and the Patil twins. AFAIK, all evidence points to these people being Asian, which in turn points to not all the students at Hogwarts being white, or even British for that matter... Any other thoughts on the matter? Me: I had the impression that the ' racial' compositon of the school population is made to mirror UK's one; you see at Hogwarts what you see walking the streets in any magior british city: Blacks, Indians, Chineses, Irish. I'd love to be introduced to some Italian witch; we are just everywhere, there's not a country I've been to where I haven't found some and we've got a tradition of emigrants to the Uk. R.- who's wishing for a little Russo witch or Proietti wizard to enter Hogwarts. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Oct 19 21:12:43 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 21:12:43 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Hurricanes, Cannon and Sinks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45570 "Oh dear!" Pippin gamely repairs her cannon, which seems to have backfired. She looks a little scorched. "I didn't mean--well, of course I can't knock down the Safe House. It's a fine piece of architecture. I guess I got carried away. You know how it is with land use issues, people get a little worked-up, especially over a lovely Bayside property like this. I don't see much canon support for that offensive ops section over there, but.." Pippin glances behind her at the dark clouds gathering over the bay. The hurricane watch flags are stiff in the wind. "I have a feeling Hurricane Jo is going blow it down without any help from me." "Anyway, I'm sorry I upset you. And um--" Pippin blushes under her powder burns and digs her toe into the sand of the beach, "I found a couple of extra cannon for the Safe House." PS/SS Voldemort goes undercover at the Hogshead and learns of Fluffy's weakness from Hagrid. Harry, Draco, Hagrid and Hermione enter the Forbidden Forest to find out what is killing unicorns. Pipsqueak slaps her forehead. "How did I forget that? Although I must say I'm not sure about the second one. We don't know if Dumbledore ordered that. " Pippin shrugs. "I think he must've done. But I admit there's lots of things we don't know about Dumbledore. You've done a very splendid LOONworthy job of cataloguing all the instances of Dumbledore's and Voldemort's intelligence gathering. But as I was just saying, there's no canon that Dumbledore ever launched a secret plot against so much as a grindylow. Secret plot to store the Stone at Hogwarts? As you say, Dumbledore could hardly have chosen a more conspicuous way of retrieving it. Secret plot to send Pettigrew back to Voldemort? You can say it could have happened. That's the trouble with conspiracy theories: lack of evidence just means the conspiracy was efficient. "KITCHEN SINK doesn't say that Dumbledore never used spies. It only proposes that Dumbledore is consistent and conducts his secret activities, whatever they are, according to the same philosophy that he teaches: choosing principle over pragmatism, and being willing to take great risks to protect innocent lives. "We know how far Dumbledore will go to protect the innocent. Twice now he's deliberately sent Harry into jeopardy. Both times it was for the sake of an innocent life. Once for the unicorns, and once for Buckbeak and Sirius. And Buckbeak has *no* practical value to Dumbledore's plans, after all Sirius could have escaped just as easily on a broom. Yet Harry and Hermione are sent back an extra two hours to rescue a mere beast, tripling the risk that they'll be spotted. " We don't know what Dumbledore's thinking. But we know what he's teaching: Harry's being taught that other lives are worth as much as his own. Is it consistent for Dumbledore to sacrifice an innocent life to get enough power to kill Voldemort? Would Amos Diggory understand?" Pipsqueak opens her mouth, but Melody answers: "..it is my turn guys; Dumbledore did NOT see the TriWiz Cup Portkeytwist!! In Dumbledore's perception, Cedric was not in more any danger than any of the other students whose name is not Harry." "Right." says Pippin grinning sarcastically, "And Dumbledore is only concerned about Harry. It never occurs to him that re-embodied Voldemort would be dangerous to anyone else. " Look, if I purposely arranged for someone to aid and abet a serial killer, I wouldn't be expecting the relatives of the next victim to forgive me just because it was all part of my secret plan. "Hope that cleans up the mess. Now, I've got to wash these scorch marks off my face. As soon as I've fixed the sink, I'll be back to help with the sandbagging." Pippin pulls out a shiny new D.R.A.I.N.S.N.A.K.E. Dumbledore Rejects Abetting Iniquity, Surely Never Aided Killer's Escapades Pippin From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Oct 19 21:36:25 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 21:36:25 -0000 Subject: question about Harry the Dursleys and presents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45571 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "purple_801999" wrote: > > Julie wrote- > > > I was wondering, I'm almost positive I heard someone before say > > that Harry had never received presents before Hagrid gave him > > Hedwig. > > ...snip... but that he'd been given a coat hanger and a pair of > > Uncle Vernon's old socks. > > ...snip... -End Julie- > Olivia replied: > > I think it was meant as Harry had never recieved a proper present > from anyone. ...snip... > > The Dursley's might send Harry gifts, as lame as they maybe, so that > they could at least say, "Well,we always sent the boy something at > the holidays!" if ever questioned or accused by Harry about their > treatment of him. > > -Olivia Grey bboy_mn adds: I've also suspected that Hedwig turns up at the Dursley's around Christmas and pesters them into sending Harry something. Hedwig probably makes a lot of noise and attacts the neighbors, and the Dursley's throw something (pence, tissue, toothpick) into an envelope just to get rid of Hedwig. Of course, I agree with Olivia and her assessment of the guilt factor. The Dursleys are big on putting up a respectable front. They wouldn't want anything to tanish the dull boring sedate middle class existance. just a couple of thoughs. bboy_mn From daniel.brent at cwctv.net Sat Oct 19 20:02:37 2002 From: daniel.brent at cwctv.net (evenflow200214) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 20:02:37 -0000 Subject: The Corruption Of Fudge? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45572 There's something all together "wrong" about the character of Fudge. Apologies if this has been bought up before but I couldn't find anything so I thought I'd run with this thread The scenes after Veritaserum, The Parting Of The Ways were arguably the most important chapter in the book - the part where Fudge's true colours came out and he refused to believe Dumbledore's party that Voldemort had returned? Rumour has it that Fudge is either one of these: 1) Working for Voldemort. A Death Eater and a faithful servent 2) Used to work for Voldemort but doesn't now 3) Is a corrupt official who is only interested in his own power levels and allies with certain *people* to keep himself at a high level 4) A bumbling ignorant First, lets take a look at Fudge's actions and parts in each of the books, then look at the pros and cons of the above theories PS/SS We are first made aware of the character of Fudge when Hagrid collects Hagrid. Hagrid is dismissive of him which leads the question as to how Fudge became Minister of Magic? He says that they wanted Dumbledore for the job but he refused showing that the candidates are probably not elected by the general public. So how do they get in? Are they voted for within the Ministry? We also see that Fudge is very reliant on Dumbledore for advice. I can't see Dumbledore sitting back and letting Fudge take control if he had any suspicion that Fudge was dodgy. Later, Dumbledore is called away under suspicious circumstances. Now, Dumbledore is not perfect but he is surely not idiot enough to be fooled by a fake letter. He appears to have an eerie knowledge of what goes on in and around Hogwarts the vast majority of the time. He appears to have known Quirrel for awhile so would not be fooled by a fake sig. Is it purely coincidental that Fudge called Dumbledore away at that time? Could this mean he may have been in cahoots with Quirrel? Or that he pulls of what I call "the Polonius" and behind his bumbling exterior, he, like Polonius in Hamlet, is actually quite sharp underneath it all, put two and two together quicker than Dumbledore and sent an owl out telling Dumbledore to get himself down to the Ministry? Book 2, we see Fudge in the flesh for the first time and he is alligned with Lucius Malfoy. Bad sign. We see throughout that he has a lot of respect for Malfoy. In fact, its nothing short of ass kissing. In fact, he's supposed to be the Minister. I get the feeling that Fudge isn't that well off so likes to latch on to people that are: the Malfoys. Anyway, he enters Hagrid's hut with Dumbledore and Lucius in tow. He's not willing to overrule Lucius when he wants Dumbledore out. He is the Minister, he probably could demand that Dumbledore stay if he wanted to. Recent example of this at work is recently when two pupils were expelled from a school, the headteacher and governers all agreed on their expulsion but an appeal court allowed them back in. Although there is a huge fuss about it, unless the parents pull the pupils out, there's not a lot anyone can do about it. I think we need to take a look at who really is the Minister here! It seems that Lucius and Dumbledore (linked as they are the advisories of Fudge) are jointly in charge through Fudge! Its a strange situation He shows more loyalty to Lucius than Dumbledore although he feebly protests. He takes Hagrid to Azkaban which shows the first signs of his bias. An old rumour of an event fifty years ago and the fact that Hagrid is a half giant is enough to convince him. Does he know about the diary? Well, at the moment its like asking if Gertrude knew about Old Hamlet's murder. You just don't know. If he did then why take Hagrid away? Leave him there and when Ginny disappears, say its Hagrid's fault, Tom will finish Harry off, destroy the diary, get Voldemort back. If he didn't, why leave the school undefended against a creature from hell? Book 3 Ok, he had more of a key role in PoA. He was the first to meet Harry. He knew exactly where to be, his timing was perfect. Outside the Leaky Cauldron. He's supposed not to have known Harry had caught the nightbus. Ern and Stan couldn't have relayed a message to them as: 1) They thought he was Neville Longbottom 2) Harry was with them the whole time 3) I wouldn't imagine either of them could leave or apparate "just like that" In fact, I wouldn't imagine them being able to apparate at all So what was Fudge doing there? It seems too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence, the fact that he was there just as the bus pulled up. Also, the overheard conversation. I didn't realise it until the fourth book had all sunk in but a comment Fudge made, made me very suspicious. I don't have the third book on me at the moment so it may not be the exact quote but here is the gist of it: "you know who alone and friendless is one thing but give him back his most devoted servant and I shudder to think how fast he will rise" Well, Voldemort's servant did escape that night. Granted, Fudge will obviously think its the wrong person (Sirius) but either way you look at it, whether you believe Sirius' innocence or not, Voldemort's *faithful* servant did escape that night. So in GoF Fudge suddenly dismisses the idea that Voldemort has returned. Does he believe that Sirius is dead? Does he know that Sirius is innocent, that Wormtail has gone back but does not believe that he is faithful? Its a very odd situation seeing that as Sirius has eluded everyone's clutches and the Dementors apparently weren't searching for him in GoF as he could take risks such as breaking into people's houses, nobody (or at least nobody who is willing to talk) knows anything about Sirius' whereabouts, wouldn't it occur to Fugde, what with the hysteria of the previous year, that Sirius may have sought out Voldemort? (On a side note, why has Dumbledore not told Hagrid about Sirius' innocence?) Fudge also appears at the end and about Sirius' escape, the first thing a respectable politician may consider is, "oh God, people's safety" As far as we know that Fudge is concerned, this guy is a remorseless killer who thinks nothing of murdering innocent victims. Yet what is the first thing he says: (apologies again for not getting the exact quote) "we had Black cornered and he slipped through our fingers again. I'll be a laughing stock, the Daily Prophet'll have a field day" His own image appears more important than people's saftey. As long as his public image is protected, who cares? is what is seems to me. Notice how he also seems to give it up now, the search. He doesn't say that the Dementors will relocate to find Sirius, he kinda gives up. Is that a reaction of a man who is concerned with the safety of the wizarding community? Is it because he knows that Dumbledore knows the Sirius is innocent or that he doesn't want his pride wounded any more than it already has been? Also, back to the overheard conversation Fudge says he was first on the scene of Sirius' arrest. This is an idea I heard on another board, so I can't take credit for it but its a good theory. Its that, Fudge maybe took bribes from people such as Malfoy to get to the scene of a crime and destroy evidence linking them to it. For example, Malfoy would tell Fudge where his next job was, Fudge would keep quiet about it and by that would be "the first on the scene", take out all evidence linking it to Death Eaters and collect the money afterwards. Maybe Now in GoF this is where Fudge REALLY gets suspicious. Well, lets go through his apperances. The first time, he is willing to brag in the top box to all who he knows about Harry's fame, regardless to how Harry feels. This is Fudge's pride coming into show. He needs to show them that HE is friends with the boy who defeated You Know Who. Its quite sad really, for the equivilent of a Prime Minister to have to justify himself by being around someone else of whom is famous Notice when the Malfoy's come in Fudge pays them a lot more respect than he does the Weasley's. We know why he pays Harry *respect* but he bows and goes into "bumbling old fool" mode. Again, the comparison with Polonius. And notice how he conveniently fails to hear Malfoy's directed insult at Arthur. Does he hear it and secretly agree with Malfoy? Or choose not to acknowledge it as he wants to stay onside with Malfoy because of his wealth and the power he has? Also, note that Lucius doesn't let his "respectable citizen" act drop around Fudge which could signify that he is bothered about what Fudge thinks or what he can get out of Fudge if Fudge learns to trust him. I suspect the latter. "however, under the gaze of the Minister Of Magic, Mr Malfoy didn't dare say anything" Also, after the fiasco with the Dark Mark, Fudge is noticibly absent from the forest scene. The high ups of the Ministry are there. Crouch snr, Malfoy (although of course in disguise) but Fudge is absent. As is Dumbledore from the whole thing which is surprising as we know he's started to put two and two together what with Frank Bryce and Bertha Jorkins. Could Fudge's disappearence be due to the fact that he was in the crowd that tortured the Robertses? Even the most blind of people must have noticed Malfoy's blatent bigotry against everything remotely related to Muggles. And the disappearence (what happened to the body?) of Frank Bryce doesn't bother Fudge all that much, despite the fact that he should know Tom Riddle's history. And if Dumbledore has kept what happened in CoS from him, it must be for a good reason. He's the Minister Of Magic. Next bit is relatively short but Fudge's bigoted side comes out in full force. In fact, you can draw a parallel between him and Ron in one way, how they both jump to the easy conclusion as that's what they want to believe. Everytime something goes wrong, Ron's attitude is, "its Snape" or "its Malfoy" and Fudge is, "its Maxime, Hagrid" as they are both half giants. Then Fudge drops the attitude when he knows that Harry is around and gets slightly embarrassed as though he wants to wrap Harry in cotton wool, much like Moody/Crouch until the third task. Then he tries, for want of a better term, to fob Harry off and send him back to class. He must know he came up to Dumbledore for a reason. So why try and send him away? Does he think he knows something and might spill and this is Fudge's way of being discreet? Also, interesting that Fudge has stationed himself inside the grounds as he's going to become the judge for the third task. Could this be so he can excuse himself from apparating to Voldemort due to the "no apparation on the Hogwarts grounds" thing? Does he want to avoid Voldemort but make out to him that he is a faithful servant by keeping an eye on things at Hogwarts? He also "looked stern and was not talking" Was he worried about the potential events of the evening or was he just being awkward as it was Madame Maxime he was sitting next to? Next time we see Fudge is after the kidnapping. There are scenes of terror, we do not know what has happened at Hogwarts during Harry's disappearance. We know that Fudge (or anyone else at Hogwarts for that matter) could not have left under the eye of the huge crowd without causing suspicion. I think, no matter what side Fudge is on, Cedric's death knocked him temporarily for six. If he's on Voldemort's side, he wouldn't have expected Cedric to go through with Harry and would have expected Harry dead. If he's an innocent puppet, or even just corrupt he wouldn't expect that But then; aha! Suspicous part! He shouts that Harry needs to get to the hospital wing. Then, right on cue, who should appear but Moody/Crouch who suggests the hospital wing. Interesting coincidence. And if you don't believe in coincidences, this is extremely dodgy. Fudge doesn't turn and try and calm the crowd. Is Fudge purposely distracting Dumbledore so Crouch can get Harry away to kill him while at the same time signalling for Crouch to take him as if Fudge himself disappeared, the crowds would know that something is amiss and he does not want to give up his position as Minister? And Fudge doesn't bother coming up for himself. If Dumbledore hasn't told him that something is up, his trust is wavering and if he hasn't then Fudge's position is now extremely dodgy. Its Dumbledore, McGonagall and Snape who appear. However, in Fudge's defence, Crouch doesn't mention him once under Veritaserum Dumbledore tells Snape to go to the grounds and find Fudge. What is Fudge doing? If he was with the Diggory's, Dumbledore would have said, "go and find Fudge, he's talking to the Diggory's" and later he states that he must speak to them, so it seems as if he doesn't know exactly where Fudge is at that moment. Wouldn't Fudge have gone up to the school when he noticed Dumbledore, McGonagall and Snape all gone? Then its THE scene. The big one. Fudge strides up the ward and demands to see Dumbledore and is livid. What reason has he got to be livid? He's destroyed Crouch... if I was anyone else, I'd be upset or glad the mess is sorted more than anything about what's happened. And also, what distracted Dumbledore's attention? He tells Harry that he "must meet with Fudge" Also, note he doesn't call him Mr Fudge, he's always insisted Harry call Snape, Professor. But he isn't bothered by addressing Fudge, who's the equivilent of Prime Minister by his proper name. Is this a sign of lack of respect and suspicion? When he says that he must meet with Fudge he goes but when Fudge comes back he demands to know where Dumbledore is. So Dumbledore can't have gone to seen Fudge. It must have taken some time to grab a Dementor, get it to Hogwarts, get it to suck Crouch's soul, then hotfoot it down to the hospital wing. So where did Dumbledore go? We know it wasn't to see the Diggory's. He saw them later. And he obviously didn't know that the Dementor was around or he wouldn't have let it in, he'd have sent it out, so he would have to be far removed from the situation as it took place. Snape says that Fudge felt that "his personal safety" was in question. Why? What reason has Crouch got to harm him? And wouldn't he still be doped up after the Veritaserum? Surely Snape told Fudge about the Veritaserum before the Kiss? Then, the big line IMO. "the moment that - that thing entered the room" she screamed pointing at Fudge, trembling all over, "it swooped down on Crouch and... This is McGonagall here! She's pretty cool usually, maximum composure. And she gestures at Fudge when she says "that thing". And Molly Weasley's comment later, "he knows what Fudge is" What is Fudge? And it said that Dumbledore then saw him clearly for the first time... Very dodgy And he keeps smiling, its not hysterical like Sirius, he keeps grinning, "a curious smile", "a strange smile" Then he starts about Harry being a Parseltongue. Anything that discredits what Harry's saying Then when Harry started on the Death Eaters and mentioned Malfoy, Snape reacted. I think he had worked out that Fudge wasn't all he seemed and when Harry said Malfoy, Snape's movement was too probably stick his hand over Harry's mouth and say "shut up" but it was too late. He probably thought that by indentifying Malfoy, Fudge would go back and tell Malfoy no matter what the situation, Malfoy would tell Voldemort and they'll keep it quiet so no-one would suspect Malfoy. Or maybe Snape has a self interest linked into the fact that he favours Draco But Snape has shot himself in the foot by showing Fudge the Dark Mark. Fudge could easily reveal that Snape is a Death Eater, he was aquitted of ever being one at his trial. He's admitted to being one. And if Fudge is for Voldemort, he can't go back as a spy as Voldemort will never believe he doesn't support Dumbledore So that's a long winded analysis on Fudge's appearence in the books The pros and cons of the four points are all in there. What's everyone's theory? 1,2,3 or 4 Dan From heidi at barefootpuppets.com Sat Oct 19 21:56:54 2002 From: heidi at barefootpuppets.com (barefootpuppets) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 21:56:54 -0000 Subject: Karkaroff...an animagus?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45573 Hello All, I was re-reading Book 4 (again) and had a thought... Learning to be an animagus is hard work and requires oversight. Was Krum assisted by Karkaroff? In Book 4, as Krum and Harry are conversing by the edge of the forest and see Crazed!Crouch, there is a brief mention of a silvery coloured bird looking though Hagrid's window. Karkaroff is always referred to as "wearing silver-fur trimmed coat"...could it be that Karkaroff is an animagus? From alina at distantplace.net Sat Oct 19 22:06:46 2002 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 18:06:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Karkaroff...an animagus?? References: Message-ID: <006601c277bb$d1eaa240$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45574 ----- Original Message ----- From: "barefootpuppets" > Learning to be an animagus is hard work and requires oversight. Was > Krum assisted by Karkaroff? In Book 4, as Krum and Harry are > conversing by the edge of the forest and see Crazed!Crouch, there is > a brief mention of a silvery coloured bird looking though Hagrid's > window. Karkaroff is always referred to as "wearing silver-fur > trimmed coat"...could it be that Karkaroff is an animagus? > Well, let's suppose that he is. If Karkaroff was a registered animagus, I imagine Hermione would've found some way to find that out. And perhaps we would've caught some indication from the Hogwarts Staff, perhaps they would be paying special attention to birds or whatnot. If he's not a registered animagus... then he'd be the fifth so far. Is the Wizarding Animagus Registration system really THAT imperfect? So, I don't think that Karkaroff is an animagus after all. Alina of Distant Place http://www.distantplace.net/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 02/08/2002 From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sat Oct 19 22:27:31 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 23:27:31 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Corruption Of Fudge? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45575 Evenflow, I love your post. Its a wonderful dissertion of most of the possibilities, here are my responcies: Evenflow writes: "Rumour has it that Fudge is either one of these: 1) Working for Voldemort. A Death Eater and a faithful servent 2) Used to work for Voldemort but doesn't now 3) Is a corrupt official who is only interested in his own power levels and allies with certain *people* to keep himself at a high level 4) A bumbling ignorant" 1) I don't think this is likely. If he was, why was he not fingered by Karakoff or Snape or someone else during the trials. I don't think that Moody or Dumbledore would have allowed him to become MFM if he had showed even the slightest taint of DEism. Other problems, why would he not want Dumbledore removed from Hogwarts permantly or lay the groundwork for Voldemort's return. 2) As far as we know, Snape was the only DE to switch sides before Voldemort's fall, so this is unlikely. More to the point, Moody (and presumabuly the other aurors) were very against trusting Snape in a postion where he could do great damage, would they not object to Fudge being MFM? 3) I can't think of any good arguments against this one, aside from the fact that if Voldemort comes back, Fudge is going to lose all his powers anyway. Therefore, he should join Dumbledore. 4) I tend to follow this thoery, but there is a twist on it: Lets suppose that Fudge became MOM just after Voldemort fell (GOF implies this) and that he was one of the reserve candidates. We know that Barty Crouch Snr and Dumbledore were in the running - and Dumbledore turned the job down. Could Fudge be suffering from an inferoity complex? Even if not, Fudge has led the rebuilding of the WW and is justly famous for it. Now, it all threatens to come crashing down in a heap around him, and his trusted friends are nothing more than DEs. Perhaps he's slipped into a fid of self-denial of the facts. Just my little bulliets Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sat Oct 19 22:29:29 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 23:29:29 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Corruption Of Fudge? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45576 Sorry, thought of this after I finished the last post and sent it. Who know, or think we know, that the WW has a basically anichist structure: who not many of them want a 'bumbling incompetant' as head officer? Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drumforever at earthlink.net Sat Oct 19 22:43:27 2002 From: drumforever at earthlink.net (Betty Landers) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 18:43:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Karkaroff...an animagus?? References: <006601c277bb$d1eaa240$12206418@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <005b01c277c0$f1847090$7154fc9e@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 45577 Original Message ----- > From: "barefootpuppets" > > Learning to be an animagus is hard work and requires oversight. Was > > Krum assisted by Karkaroff? In Book 4, as Krum and Harry are > > conversing by the edge of the forest and see Crazed!Crouch, there is > > a brief mention of a silvery coloured bird looking though Hagrid's > > window. Karkaroff is always referred to as "wearing silver-fur > > trimmed coat"...could it be that Karkaroff is an animagus? Betty: No. The way the passage is written, it seems that Dumbledore sent out a summoning signal to Hagrid, which happened to look like a silvery bird. Here's the passage ***** "Should I go and get someone?" said Harry. "Madam Pomfrey?" "No," said Dumbledore swiftly. "Stay here." He raised his wand into the air and pointed it in the direction of Hagrid's cabin. Harry saw something silvery dart out of it and streak away through the trees like a ghostly bird. Then Dumbledore bent over Krum again, pointed his wand at him, and muttered, "Ennervate." ***** So it definitely came from Dumbledore's wand. Betty From m.bockermann at t-online.de Sat Oct 19 23:33:16 2002 From: m.bockermann at t-online.de (m.bockermann at t-online.de) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 23:33:16 -0000 Subject: TBAY:Imperious!Arthur was a VICTIM(new acronym) long! References: <1035033280.987.52709.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002901c277d5$9e7803c0$5bfb9b3e@computer> No: HPFGUIDX 45578 *What a day,* Ethanol thougt as she crawled up the gangway of the Imperius!Arthus trimaran. The first time she has visited the TBAY she gets into a brawl, a mutiny, gets arrested and was dragged before the QWC. *Maybe better luck next time,* she thought as her ethusiams returns. If she just wasn't so tired. Standing in the corridor she realized that she never got around to moving into a cabin. Her knees buckling under her, she just collapsed onto the floor. *Actually, not a bad position,* she realized after a moment. From where she is crouching she can hear all kind of different conversations. That between Cindy and Abigail, for example. Or that between Veronica and this newcomer, Risti. Very interesting thoughts here, too. Feeling invigorated and energetic again, she decides to add her humble thoughts to the discussions. But where should she turn to - left or right. Deciding to follow the easy way, she storms Cindy's cabin and drags her and Abigail towards Risti and Veronica. Too stunned by surprise they fail to resist until all are assembled in the captain's cabin. Finally, Cindy demanded: "What are you doing?", but Ethanol silenced her with a stern look. "You said I was too bangy," she said, scowling. "You owe to hear me out." Cindy looked dubious but fell silent. "You said you coudn't see Unwilling Fillicide!Arthur.... maybe we should talk about this a bit more." "Talk about what?" Cindy asked and shrugged. "He wouldn't kill his child. Neither would Molly. There's nothing to discuss." "Well, I agree with you." "What?" Cindy mouth hung open. "But you said directly..." "Or indirectly responsible for the death, yes. I would place *killing* under *directly* and I think both Molly and Arthur would rather die than harm a child of theirs. Or any child. I allowed for *directly* because I did not want to call down the wrath of the Fillicide!Arthur gang - if they are out there. But me, personally, I believe in the Indirectly theory." "And how would that look like?" Veronica said, finally breaking her silence. "Well as Risti so nicely summarized, there is more to Arthur than meets the eyes. I think we can all agree to that?" There were knots from the different fractions. "Now I agree with Risti - actually I agree a lot with her - that what Arthus exactly did, is not that important. Certainly, he was in a much better positition once and thus better off financially. We know this, because otherwise Lucius would have no reason to taunt: "How far can a wizarding family sink? This is my canon for Risti's demotion theory." She blushed, because the words are paraphrased but her English edition of the books are currently out of reach. The others throw her dark looks, but thankfully they refrain from tearing her apart. "So, whatever he did, it put him in an important position. The kind of position where you have access to delicate information. Information that a DE would die for. Or kill for. Or certainly put somebody under Imperius for." Cindy regarded her thoughtfully. "So you think that Arthur has been imperioed to get some information out of him." "That is a possibility," Ethanol said and smiled. "It might be information that endangered other wizards and witches, including possibly his family. Imperioed Arthur said something that resulted in Missing Weasley child's death. That is one possiblity." Cindy's eyes grew larger. "There is another one?" Ethanol nodded. "The other is, that because he was imperioed, Arthur was at the wrong place at the wrong time, thus failing to protect his family when they were visited by the DEs." But Veronica shook her head. "In both possibilties Arthur does not really kill the Missing Weasly. He would have no reason for your dogmas, Guilt and Shame." "Objectively speaking, you are right. It was not his fault. Otherwise, he would have likely been thrown out. As Abigail pointed out, most if not all wizards and witches are unable to fight off Imperius curse. But that might not have stopped the MoM from demoting himm, asRisti suggested. I love this demotion idea because a demotin is a source for my dogma Shame. As for the dogma Guilt, objectively he might not be guilty, but would a grieving father really think this way? I don't think so. I believe he would feel he has failed and thus caused his child's death. The horror he feels about this is really evident when he talks about the dark mark in the Dark Mark chapter in GoF. The way he winces, how his voice becomes incoherent... I am willing to be he speaks out of experience. This fits in nicely with both Imperius!Arthur and VICTIM!Arthur." "Well," said Risti, pleased that somebody liked her demotion theory. "Would you agree that it was Lucius that put Arthur under the Imperius spell?" she asked hopefully. Ethanol pondered that for a moment. "Well, it is certainly possible. It would certainly explain why Arthur is examining Lucius so closely." She noted the blank stares in the other women's stares. "That is kind of the point of the Nocturn episode in CoS, isn't it. We learn that Lucius keeps some illegal enchanted objects. We also learn that he tries to get rid of them - because of Arthur Weasley! No wonder he gets into a brawl with him later. The law Arthur pushed trough is placing Lucius in trouble and he tries to get rid of the most incrimating evidence in case his property is searched. I imagine while he was brushing through his belongings, he found the diary and decided to create havoc with it. Wether Harry was the intended victim or not, the brawl at the book store enabled Lucius to plant it with Ginny and there it ended. Both Lucius and Arthur's behaviour tend to a history behind them that exeeds possible arguements in their school time. But no matter how far their relationship goes back, I agree with you Risti, that Lucius and Arthur have a bangy showdown coming." After her long monologue, Ethanol came back to the present. She found Veronica and Risti staring thoughtfully at her, but Cindy yawned openly. "What I don't get about you Missing Weasley folks is what you all doing it for: inventing name schemes, cooking up intrigues, some even step down to fillicide.... yes, all right, so *you* don't. But what I want to know is what it is all for. Is it even bangy." Ethanol flinched, her eyes darting around. "Now," she whispered. "I don't really have a canon there or even a theory, but... I have a very, very bad feeling. Ever since I learned that the followers of Voldemort were called death*eaters*. I haven't been able to come up with an interpretation of that name except the one that came to my mind immediatly when I read it... ." "What do you mean," Veronica asked with a stern look in her face and a warning in her voice. "Surely you wouldn't suggest... " "If the books were standing in the adult section, yes, I would suggest that the deatheaters would actually eat death. As it is... I can't find an alternative to it except *sacrifical killing*." "All right, that's it," said Voldemort and lifted her paddle. "You are one sick puppy. You are even to bad for FEATHERBOAS. Get out of here, now... ." Ethanol lifted up her hands to defend herself from the blows. "It is a serious were a youngster gets killed for being extra and Peter offhandedly sacrifies his hands for his master. And we know that Voldemort was a least after one specific baby. Waht if he was looking for other babies as well, babies from old wizarding families? What else did these people do? I will listen to your corrections, gladly, but please stop hitting me." Overcome by a sudden attack of mercy, Veronica interupted her punishments for a moment. "You have very little proof for such madness," she said. Ethanol noded sadly. "Aye. Nothing but the DEs name, the events at the cemetary in GoF." Veronica fell silent, obviously pondering if she should keel-haul Ethanol or simply kick her off the trimaran. Or maybe her Dumbledore instinct will win out. Beside her Cindy was also thinking, probably about the decision Abigail was trying to force on her. So Ethanol smiled at Abigail and Risti who were looking quite confused and sat down, kneading her hurting legs. From m.bockermann at t-online.de Sun Oct 20 00:13:34 2002 From: m.bockermann at t-online.de (m.bockermann at t-online.de) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 00:13:34 -0000 Subject: Where's the Bang?/Hogwarts Houses (Was: RE: House assumptions) References: <1035033280.987.52709.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002a01c277d5$9ee45a20$5bfb9b3e@computer> No: HPFGUIDX 45579 As a big fan of the House assumptions I feel compelled to answer this one. >>>So, Harry finds out Sirius/Remus/James was a Slytherin. I mean, what's the point? Without trying to sound too much like Cindy - where's the Bang? I work on the presumtion that is was either Sirius (more likely) or Remus that was in Slytherin (James was in Gryffindor, we know that from JKR). I can imagine several bangs. The first bang is the shock for Harry when he finds out. Nice questions like "How will he react?" Will he say: "Oh, so what, you are just a nice Slytherin. No big deal." A very unbangy possiblity, but quite unlikely. But that would be different if the disclosure would challenge his view about the Slytherins. Maybe that would change his view on present Slytherins, or Snape, or the fact that he was nearly sorted into Slytherin himself (I also adhere to the believe that without Harry's pleas he would indeed have ended up there). Another scenario is to have that disclosure as the cause for disclosing Harry's little secrets: that he would/should have been sorted into Slytherin and that his wand is the brother to Voldemort's. Or revealing that one of the Marauders was a Slytherin might help to calm the waves after the disclosure of Harry's secrets. And I am certain, that those will be revealed and that it will be the mother of a Big Bang. Why? If it wasn't big time bangy, why would JKR have Harry keep silent about it. Yes, I know, people argue against this stance, quoting Dumbledore's *it's our choices...* citation. Fine, but that is tolerant, muggle-loving Dumbledore speaking. People like the Malfoys and others at the MoM for whom blood is everything would certainly disagree. Slytherins and Ex-Slytherins would certainly not be happy to learn that Harry turned down their house. Especially since Harry's popularity must have certainly dropped after Rita's last article. Another arguement in favor is that if you say that choices are more important than your blood or origin, it also clearly implies that it is that blood or origin that will force this choice on you. And last but not least, Ron and Hermione will certainly not be pleased to learn that Harry kept a secret from them. Do I know how all of this fits together? No, but I see enough conflict potential here to ensure a major Bang. >>>Apart from that, I've never been that fond of the idea that what House you got into really mattered (outside of Hogwarts that is ;-)). Aside from a few old grudges against old rivals, I just really hate the idea that people from the Gryffindor and Slytherin Houses have some lifelong blood feud. I think the houses as similiar to student - ouch, I can't recall the English word for it :-( - those sororities or elite clubs they have at US (and British?) universities that are often named with Greek letters. We have something similiar here in Germany called Burschenschaften (though they have a different tradition and political stance as far as I gather). At least for the Burschenschaften I know, that the senior members of those societies keep in contact well beyond their university time and are expected to help each other along. I can imagine that wizards from the same house will help out a fellow ex-mate, for example helping with a promotion or such. While I grant to you that Gryffindors, Ravenclaws and Huffle-Puffs would scorn such practice, I can well imagine the Slytherins to behave this way. If indeed the DEs were mostly or exclusivly made up of alumni-Slytherins, the DEs would likely have exploited this unwritten code. >>>Do the DE's follow LV because of his ancestry, or because they agree with his goals, and respect/fear his power? Is it more important to people that LV is the Heir of Slytherin or a Parselmouth? I assume, that for the people, being a Parselmouth will place you along the descendants of Slytherin or in their very close relations. The talent is certainly rare for that. So for the people, LV would of course speak Parsel because he was the Heir of Slytherin. That reasoning is the only logical explanation why the other Hogwarts students were so quick to shun and blame Harry. >>>This also tends to be my problem with the "Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor" theories, and it has nothing to do with Destiny vs. Choice. Just why does it matter if Harry's descended from Gryffindor? There you ask me to much, since I am not a fan of the Heir of Gryffindor theory myself. Greetings, Ethanol From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 20 00:03:33 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 00:03:33 -0000 Subject: Karkaroff...an animagus?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45580 "barefootpuppets" asked: (good gracious, how did you ever come up with that name?) >>Karkaroff is always referred to as "wearing silver-fur trimmed coat"...could it be that Karkaroff is an animagus?<< I always thought the reason Karkaroff chose to wear the silver-fur robes was to show how prominent and wealthy a wizard he perceived himself to be. Silver fur, probably fox fur (is there a magical creature with silver fur?), is very expense and dignifying especially against the contrast of black robes. It was the only edge he has in possibly become mistaken as a distinguished wizard. Melody From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Sat Oct 19 22:39:12 2002 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (K-lo) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 18:39:12 -0400 Subject: Voledmort's warning to Lily before trying to kill Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45581 I?ve been listening to the CD-Audio book of POA and there is one thing that I?m confused about: When Harry hears his parents last few words before Voldemort kills them, he hears Voldemort warning Lily off. (POA, Page 239, US Ed.) ?Stand Aside. Stand Aside, Girl!? That?s what he says, but I?m wondering is why? The book doesn?t go into too much detail as to how his father died, but I don?t think Voldemort gave James any warning, so why give any to Lily? Why not just kill her outright, instead of as a last resort so he could get to Harry? What was important about Lily that he gave her a choice to ?stand aside?? -K-Lo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From millergal8 at aol.com Sun Oct 20 00:51:08 2002 From: millergal8 at aol.com (millergal8 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 20:51:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Corruption Of Fudge? Message-ID: <67.41186d.2ae357fc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45582 << Evenflow writes: "Rumour has it that Fudge is either one of these: 1) Working for Voldemort. A Death Eater and a faithful servent 2) Used to work for Voldemort but doesn't now 3) Is a corrupt official who is only interested in his own power levels and allies with certain *people* to keep himself at a high level 4) A bumbling ignorant" Now Chris: 1) I don't think this is likely. If he was, why was he not fingered by Karakoff or Snape or someone else during the trials. I don't think that Moody or Dumbledore would have allowed him to become MFM if he had showed even the slightest taint of DEism. Other problems, why would he not want Dumbledore removed from Hogwarts permantly or lay the groundwork for Voldemort's return. >> It is actually quite feasible that none of the DE's about Fudge. Voldemort thrives on being powerful. Which do you think fits better, the evil overlord trusting his followers enough to allow them to know the other followers, or keeping the power to himself and only he knows who the supporters are? The first scenario leaves Voldemort rather vulnerable. First, if one DE is caught what is stopping that person from naming all the supporters? Second, Voldemort, being the shrewd wizard he is, knows that he doesn't attract the most honorable of followers. By keeping the membership secret, he protects himself from a supporter who suddenly decides he/she has more to gain by going to the other side, or even a revolt. It would be awfully hard to try to stage a coup if the members didn't even know who each other were and didn't even know how to meet unless being called by Voldemort. Now granted yes, some people did know the names of other DEs. But total secrecy would be a nearly impossible feat. But iby keeping the number of DEs who know each other to a minimum he safeguards himself. We even have canon proving that he chose this policy. From GoF, Scholastic paperback, pg 646 "All of them were hooded and masked." This is when the DEs were apparating to the graveyard. Why would they need masks if the only people there were fellow DEs and a boy he was going to kill? Fudge may not have even been at DE meetings. There really isn't canon to support this theory, but there also isn't canon to disprove it, so hear me out. Suppose he turned DE after starting work for the ministry? Even an entry level ministry worker would be a good asset as a spy. So instead of running around killing people while wearing a mask, Fudge parades around pretending to fight, but he is really passing any info he gets on to Voldemort. So through the years of Voldemort's terrorism, he works his way up the corporate ladder, getting ever closer to the inner circle where he would have the most important information at his disposal. Then, suddenly little Harry Potter defeats Voldemort. Nobody knows about Fudge because he never met with the DEs, he only met with the head guy. What does Fudge have to gain by leaving the ministry. Nothing, in fact, he stands to lose a lot by leaving. First, he is apparantly the third most important man within the ministry at this point. Second, by abruptly leaving right after the fall of Voldemort, he draws attention to himself. It would seem suspicious to most people if a powerful man were to suddenly "retire" and leave, so soon after victory. So he stays on for lack of anything else to do. Then, oops, suddenly because two of his opponents for the top spot are gone, Fudge becomes the new minister. Of course he takes it, what kind of nutter would turn down the job? (Keep in mind that Dumbledore is considered a nut by some people.) So now Fudge is the head guy, by default. But his true convictions never change. He still remains a DE at heart, but is smart enough to keep quiet and is the number one man in the UK. And years later, a rumor appears that Voldemort is on the rise. Fudge, having never changed his beliefs would still be faithful to him. And Voldemort isn't stupid enough to throw out the minister of magic as an asset. Fudge now goes back to spying. He's even more powerful now because who would mistrust the minister of magic? And to ensure that nobody has reason to doubt him, he allows Dumbledore to stay at Hogwarts, for now anyway. Even if he is considered to be insane by some, Dumbledore is still respected. Firing Dumbledore would only call more attention to himself, something a successful spy would never do. Christy From editor at texas.net Sun Oct 20 01:14:18 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 20:14:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Karkaroff...an animagus?? References: Message-ID: <005801c277d6$04800280$117763d1@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 45583 barefootpuppets, who didn't sign his/her post (if you pick a name like that, be *proud* of it, *use* it!) said: > I was re-reading Book 4 (again) and had a thought... You mean, other than "We have *got* to get some new material to work with, here..."? > > Learning to be an animagus is hard work and requires oversight. Was > Krum assisted by Karkaroff? In Book 4, as Krum and Harry are > conversing by the edge of the forest and see Crazed!Crouch, there is > a brief mention of a silvery coloured bird looking though Hagrid's > window. Karkaroff is always referred to as "wearing silver-fur > trimmed coat"...could it be that Karkaroff is an animagus? I doubt there is a connection. Fur of any kind implies wealth; silver implies silver fox; it also is remiscent of the silvery-blonde Malfoys, neh? I, personally, hereby state that I will buy a bag of Bertie Botts Beans for each and every member of this list if any more unregistered animagi show up in Book 5.* I'm not really expecting any more at all, but I *definitely* don't think we'll meet any in the next book. It's too familiar now, something we're looking for. JKR is nothing if not inventive; there'll be *new* stuff. You just wait. --Amanda while you're waiting, some of you guys (you know who you are) might start drafting your profuse verbal apologies for the abuse that's been heaped on the heads of the Snape-Lilyists, for that, too, will be borne out.... *or Polyjuice Plot Ploys From divaclv at aol.com Sun Oct 20 01:50:03 2002 From: divaclv at aol.com (c_voth312) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 01:50:03 -0000 Subject: Voledmort's warning to Lily before trying to kill Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45584 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., K-lo wrote: > That?s what he says, but I?m wondering is why? The book doesn?t go into too > much detail as to how his father died, but I don?t think Voldemort gave > James any warning, so why give any to Lily? Why not just kill her outright, > instead of as a last resort so he could get to Harry? What was important > about Lily that he gave her a choice to ?stand aside?? > > -K-Lo > A couple theories: 1) For reasons which have yet to be explained, Voldemort feels threatened by Potter bloodline--perhaps a prophecy predicted his downfall would come from this lineage, or such. Since Lily married into the family, her death isn't as "necessary" as James' or Harry's. 2) Voldemort is probably sadistic enough to promise to spare Lily, then kill Harry right in front of her, after which he might either a) kill her anyway or b) turn her over to the DE's for their own "amusement." ~Christi From squireandknight at yahoo.com Sun Oct 20 04:50:26 2002 From: squireandknight at yahoo.com (Becky) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 04:50:26 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's warning to Lily before trying to kill Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45585 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "c_voth312" wrote: > A couple theories: > > 1) For reasons which have yet to be explained, Voldemort feels > threatened by Potter bloodline--perhaps a prophecy predicted his > downfall would come from this lineage, or such. Since Lily married > into the family, her death isn't as "necessary" as James' or Harry's. > > 2) Voldemort is probably sadistic enough to promise to spare Lily, > then kill Harry right in front of her, after which he might either a) > kill her anyway or b) turn her over to the DE's for their > own "amusement." > > ~Christi Or Voldemort might not be as completely homicidal as the books make him out to be. I know that often a comparison is made between LV's "Kill the spare"and his "Stand aside, girl!", but I think it's rather unfair to compare the climatic moment after thirteen years, to a time when LV was pretty much running wild. If LV is smarter than he appears to be (and I hope he is), than leaving Lily alive could be useful. Knowing your child could be killed in front of your eyes while you're helpless would be *extremely* demoralizing. If the DE's are running as a terrorist operation, having a survivor give an eyewitness account could be more useful than a heap of dead bodies. If Voldemort had reasons to be strictly aiming for the Potter bloodline, than Lily's death really is unnecessary, despite her Muggle-born status. (Or, I suppose, you could take it as evidence toward Squib!Petunia.) There's also a statement by Hagrid made in PS/SS that seems to be slightly puzzling if you think of LV as a complete psycho murderer. He says: "An then - an' this is the real myst'ry of the thing - he tried to kill you, too. Wanted to make a clean job of it, I suppose, or maybe he just liked killin' by then." This doesn't really seem to me that LV had a reputation for mass murder. Possibly his DE's, but I find it rather odd that LV's reasons would be in question if he was known for killing every "spare" in sight. So what is it? Proof of LV's less bloodthirsty status? A question for the WW brought by hindsight? Or possibly, just JKR having fun with us, and saying right out what the mystery of the HP world is supposed to be. Becky From squireandknight at yahoo.com Sun Oct 20 05:21:15 2002 From: squireandknight at yahoo.com (Becky) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 05:21:15 -0000 Subject: Where's the Bang?/Hogwarts Houses (Was: RE: House assumptions) In-Reply-To: <002a01c277d5$9ee45a20$5bfb9b3e@computer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45586 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., m.bockermann at t... wrote: > As a big fan of the House assumptions I feel compelled to answer this one. > > > I work on the presumtion that is was either Sirius (more likely) or Remus > that was in Slytherin (James was in Gryffindor, we know that from JKR). I > can imagine several bangs. The first bang is the shock for Harry when he > finds out. Maybe that would > change his view on present Slytherins, or Snape, or the fact that he was > nearly sorted into Slytherin himself (I also adhere to the believe that > without Harry's pleas he would indeed have ended up there). > > Another scenario is to have that disclosure as the cause for disclosing > Harry's little secrets: that he would/should have been sorted into Slytherin > and that his wand is the brother to Voldemort's. Or revealing that one of > the Marauders was a Slytherin might help to calm the waves after the > disclosure of Harry's secrets. But that really doesn't seem Bangy enough for the total silence on the House status in the first place. IMNSHO there is no way Remus would have been able to keep his werewolf status a secret from Severus for so long if they were sharing a dormitory. And if it was Sirius, then I think a lot of listies would be asking why it wasn't brought up at the Three Broomsticks when Fudge, McGonagall, Madam Rosmerta, and Hagrid were talking about Sirius' "betrayal." None of them would seem to have any reason for keeping silent about it when speculating about Sirius. So why (especially given Hagrid's, in particular, prejudice against the Slytherins) wasn't it mentioned? I think JKR would have to have *some* explanation for the silence. > I think the houses as similiar to student - ouch, I can't recall the English > word for it :-( - those sororities or elite clubs they have at US (and > British?) universities that are often named with Greek letters. I know, that the senior members of those societies keep > in contact well beyond their university time and are expected to help each > other along. I can imagine that wizards from the same house will help out a > fellow ex-mate, for example helping with a promotion or such. While I grant > to you that Gryffindors, Ravenclaws and Huffle-Puffs would scorn such > practice, I can well imagine the Slytherins to behave this way. If indeed > the DEs were mostly or exclusivly made up of alumni-Slytherins, the DEs > would likely have exploited this unwritten code. > I tend to hope they were a lot more scattered around the Houses than that, though I can see your reasoning. > I assume, that for the people, being a Parselmouth will place you along the > descendants of Slytherin or in their very close relations. The talent is > certainly rare for that. So for the people, LV would of course speak Parsel > because he was the Heir of Slytherin. That reasoning is the only logical > explanation why the other Hogwarts students were so quick to shun and blame > Harry. I'm not so sure. In FBAWTFT it mentions "Herpo the Foul," who is Greek, in the section on Basilisks, and "writings of Parselmouths" in the Runespoor bit. While I know some are wary of its absolute canonical purity, I think that this tends to reflect JKR's mind about the rareness and origin of Parselmouths. Also, the students were already suspicious of Harry, having a trait that Slytherin was known to hold would seem to only clinch the matter, especially given the atmosphere. Particularly, as Tom Riddle seemed to suspect that he and Harry were the only two Parselmouths to attend Hogwarts after Salazar Slytherin. Even given a lack of familial information, it doesn't seem likely that Parselmouth's are automatically associated with Slytherin (outside of locations where Slytherin's Heir is supposed to be attacking people that is ;-)), and TR has spent around five years discovering the secrets of Slytherin's Chamber of Secrets. > > Greetings, > Ethanol Becky From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 20 05:51:57 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 05:51:57 -0000 Subject: spies/Auror!Arthur-Missing Weasley/Sirius+Sev/Triwizard/TeddySpider/Pop!Corn Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45587 Pippin wrote: << Harry is being taught to *hate* spies: Snape, Myrtle, Pettigrew, Mrs. Norris. >> That seems like a poor plan when Harry may have to depend on information supplied by spies in the future. Or when Harry surely will have to depend on Snape in the future.w Cindy wrote: << [Arthur] knows Winky wouldn't know how to conjure [the Dark Mark] (although this seems to escape Amos Diggory) >> That conversation has ALWAYS read to me like Arthur and Amos playing "Good Cop, Bad Cop" with the witness. It gives me the impression that Arthur and Amos used to work as partners in some investigative or law enforcement job, and simply fell into their old habit of how to interrogate. Just because the roles are in accordance with their personalities (Good Cop Arthur always speaks gently and tries to be diplomatic, while Bad Cop Amos speaks abrasively and tries to act dominant) doesn't mean that everything they say is sincere. Accusing the witness of having done dreadful things leading to dreadful punishments, even tho' everyone knows perfectly well that the witness did no such thing, seems to me to be a typical Bad Cop technique for frightening the witness into telling everything heesh can. IIRC last time I posted this idea, someone offered up hiser idea that Arthur (and presumably Amos) had been Aurors during the Reign of Terror. When the Voldemort Crisis was over, the Ministry felt a need to downsize its force of Aurors. Some could be given (early) retirement, like Moody, but Arthur and Amos were too young to be retired and too recently heroic to be laid-off, so they were transferred to whatever jobs were open: Muggle Artifacts for Arthur, Control of Magical Creatures for Amos. Risti wrote: << He also defends Hermione's point about the treatment of House Elves. >> I am sure that Arthur's kind heart would be sickened by the Malfoy's cruel abuse of their House Elf, but I strongly suspect that his verbal agreement with Hermione was only diplomatic, i.e. to shut her up to avoid getting distracted from the important conversation. By the way, I do like the way your theory accounts for all three of Arthur's demotion, his emnity to Lucius, AND his poverty. Abigail wrote: << "If Arthur was an Auror, what was he doing bringing his young son to work with him?" Demands Cindy. >> He brought his son into the office, not into the field, presumably on a paperwork day. *** Probably contrary to the original plan of Take Your Daughter to Work Day, bus operators at my company don't have their young daughters ride along on their runs on April 26, instead the daughters come to an organized group event including a chaperoned tour of the bus barns and maintenance shop. Robert Gonzalez wrote: << Usually though, it's the 7th son of a 7th son and though we havn't heard anything about Ron's extended family you'd think 6 uncles would be hard to avoid mentioning. (Unless they were all dead!) >> If Arthur had six brothers and some sisters, but they had all been killed, that would account for Malfoy's statement that "all the Weasleys" have red hair, more children than they can afford, and no money. If Arthur was the first Weasley to have a big family, where does "all the Weasleys" come from? Dave Hardenbrook wrote: << Ooooo! Good point! But if the alphabetical thing is valid, why does it break down with Ron and Ginny? >> While I think "Daisy" is a more Weasley-like D name for a daughter than "Demeter", the argument is that Arthur and Molly stopped the alphabetical naming when D was killed, which was just about when the twins were being born. Thus, Ron and Ginny are not part of the alphabetic system. They stopped the alphabetic system because it was a constant reminder of their late child ... altho' one would have thought that they would have renamed Fred and George as well as E. Percy. Barb wrote: << Bill's name is most likely William. >> While I admit that the alphabet theory is weak, I insist that there is strong evidence that Bill could be named Bilius. It is attested in canon as a name of a wizard, in fact the name of an uncle of Bill's (as Ron's uncle would also be Bill's uncle). We don't know much about this Uncle Bilius, not even which side he was on nor whether he was uncle by birth or marriage, but we do know that he's dead (after seeing a Grim). If he had died before Bill was born (we don't know WHEN he died), it would make sense to name the oldest son after the deceased brother of the parent. (Yay, Rebecca!) Cindy wrote: << Any parent who has suffered the death of a child for any reason is *devastated.* (snip) Yet look at Arthur's discussion of the Dark Mark: 'Mr. Weasley winced.' That's it. >> Except these wizards are Tough, a bunch of Ancient Romans. "Non dolet, Paule." atrocity.geo wrote: << " ... why Sirius hates Severus, nothing big..." and mom's response was..."Oh, are they brothers? Those sound like a pair of names from one family rather than 2 seperate names..." >> On one tentacle, they aren't names from the same family IF that family has a tradition of naming all its sons after astronomical objects or Roman emperors. On another tentacle, from time to time people remark on how the canonical descriptions of Sirius and Severus resemble each other: the only stated differences are that Snape is greasy, has a bigger and more bent aquiline nose, and *no* laughter in his eyes. They often go on to suggest that the two men are brothers or cousins. To me, the canonical descriptions are so sparse, so filled in with our own imaginations, that resemblances cannot be a clue to kinship. Porphyria: << really loves the "Snape is Sirius' illegitimate half-brother" theory, even if it is a bit soap-opera-ish. >> No, No, *Sirius* is *Snape*'s illegitimate ... half-brother? Maybe first cousin, maybe nephew (via an older sibling) ... Hickengruendler wrote: << If really everybody were aware, that Harry and Cedric were portkeyed away, that means, they must have seen the champions during the maze. Then why nobody cared, when Moody attacked Fleur or put the imperizus curse on Krum? Or when Krum put "Cruciatus" an Cedric? >> This is a forbidden "I agree" post. I had been going to say the same thing, but in a more verbose and less clear way, until I read your post. Ing wrote: << The champion who came first in the 3rd Task wouldn't necessarily have won the Tournament would they? If so, why bother with the first 2 tasks? But then, if Fleur had no chance why was she still competing? >> The one who came in first in the Third Task won the Tournament. They bothered with the first two Tasks because the score in those Tasks controlled how much headstart the contestant got in the Third Task. Melody wrote: << (Though I think it would of been amusing if just Cedric grabbed the cup, and when he portkeyed to the graveyard, a disappointed Voldemort commanded Pettigrew to take him back and grab Potter and returned to the graveyard leaving Cedric dazed and confused. But that is my musing and would probably loosen the tension of the scene sequence a bit. Anyway...) >> Then Voldemort *might* have been reasonable enough to use Cedric's blood for his re-embodiment spell. If Voldemort had settled for Cedric then, or had ever been persuaded by Wormtail's argument that any wizard (except a Death Eater) would do, then all the alleged efforts to set up a situation in which the servant whose flesh he used had a life-debt to the enemy whose blood he used would have been for naught. Richelle: << We learn it was Fred who as a child turned Ron's teddy bear into a spider. Bad Fred, Bad! >> I've always thought that was Involuntary Magic, like Harry turning his teacher's wig blue. Fyre Wood wrote: << "Grandpa Bob's Extra Popper Popcorn" or "Butter Blast--the Popcorn that has an *explosive* butter taste in your mouth." >> Apparently the wizarding world's sense of amusement is generally pretty rough, like Exploding Snap. So wizarding Pop!Corn would have to !Pop in some pretty rough way, like after you swallowed it, or maybe it makes you !Pop! explode like Mr. Creosote. (That OT reference is just an attempt to test my Tim's theory that only old farts like us will remember who was Mr. Creosote.) (bboy_mn Steve, I read your suggestion but to me it is insufficiently violent.) From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 20 06:07:51 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 06:07:51 -0000 Subject: Prefects/which floor?/Cho/Vold+Lucius/what is OotP?/V+Lily/Right-Easy/Class Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45588 Fyre Wood wrote: << From what I've read, it looks as though 1-2 students are chosen from each House to become a prefect. >> The list has come up with many theories of how many Prefects there are at Hogwarts. I go with the theory that there are 6 Prefects per House (the Head Boy and Head Girl are included in that count): one girl and one boy from each of fifth, sixth, and seventh year. One problem with this theory is that Mrs. Weasley seemed to have expected both Fred and George to become Prefects, but the theory could be saved by suggesting that the authorities (House Master, Headmaster, or entire Faculty Senate, whoever chooses the Prefects) make an exception for twins. I think that if the Gryffindor Prefects are chosen by McGonagall, she will choose Harry and Hermione (they're her pets as well as having the best resumEs) but if Dumbledore chooses, he might well choose Neville as boy Prefect in an attempt to bring out his hidden leadership qualities. Richard GulPlum wrote: << It's important that the teachers (Head of House in particular) trust the Prefects, so a (relatively) clean sheet in terms of misbehaving or breaking school rules is required. >> Being the known as one of the biggest troublemakers in at least a generation didn't stop James Potter from being made Prefect. Steve bboy_mn wrote: << So is that bathroom on the ground floor, second floor, or third floor? >> I feel that the numbering of the floors of Hogwarts Castle is somewhat arbitrary: I imagine that Hogwarts Castle is built *in* a hillside, so on the high side of the hill (I think it is a cliff beside the lake, with a cave in it for the first-years's boats to enter) one particular floor is many layers underground, but that same floor is surface-level on the other side where the ground is lower. Steve bboy_mn: << We have a pretty Asian girl. It's safe to assume she is not a tall, blue eyed, blond, pretty Asian girl. >> The description when Harry first met Cho said she was even shorter than Harry, so not being tall is part of canon. I don't recall if there is any canon for her having black hair. JOdel wrote: << In Goblet, Voldemort's coldness toward his "slippery friend" Lucius >> What you saw as coldness, I saw as affection -- fondly forgiving Lucius for the same offenses for which he was punishing the others. Vinnia wrote: << I believe in book 5, Harry would face Voldemort once again, and the very thing that saves Harry would be the fact that his phoenix feather is from a different lifecycle with Voldemort's. Hence the order of phoenix effect. >> I think that is a new idea, and I think it is possible. K-Lo wrote: << Why not just kill her outright, instead of as a last resort so he could get to Harry? What was important about Lily that he gave her a choice to 'stand aside'? >> A number of theories with such names as EWW, Even EWWer, So EWWer it's in the sewer, and Too EWW to be trEWW attempt to answer this question, by supposing that Lily was to kept alive to be given to someone as a concubine. someone's harem. The least gross is that Severus was in love with Lily all along (or was her brother); when he learned that Voldemort planned to kill all three Potters, he attempted to save Lily by asking Voldemort to give him Lily as a present, and Voldemort valued Severus enough to generously promise that he would keep Lily alive as Sevvie's slave IF she didn't interfere with him killing her son. This theory continues: Sevvie knew Lily too well to think she'd ever stand aside to let her child be killed, so his next attempt to save her was that he turned traitor against Voldemort and spy for Dumbledore. Next, that Peter was in love with Lily all along, and was recruited to spy for Voldemort by the promise of being given Lily as reward. The grossest is that the prophecy that caused all this fuss stated that Lily's son would win the war for his father's side, so Voldemort planned to force Lily to bear him a son. Rita Potter wrote: << Nothing dramatic, but what if that bit of info would implicate your friend in a crime? Or just mean that said friend is cheating on his/her partner? What is 'easy' and what is 'right' in this case? To keep one's mouth shut is definitely easy, while to spill the beans is, on one hand, to do the right thing but, on the other, to betray your friend. >> I'm not so sure which is the 'easy' and which is the 'right' behavior in your example. Suppose your friend's crime was a Good act against an Evil government (foreign conquerors) and the Evil government was interrogating you with all kinds of realistic threats of how you would be punished if they later discovered that you had borne false witness to them? Sydney wrote of Stan Shunpike: << as far as I can tell the only evidence advanced that he DIDN'T go to Hogwarts, is that of his broad London cockney. >> His accent should be evidence that he is Muggle-born, not that he is lower-class in the wizarding world. I was thinking about wizarding folks's accents last week, and it occured to me that all the wizard- born wizards of Britain should have the *same* accent, regardless if they are as pedigreed and powerful as the Malfoys or as lowly as Filch, because we are discussing a community of only 20,000 people, whom JKR said all go to the same school (Hogwarts), and who all shop in the same two shopping districts, Diagon Alley and Hogsmeade. They mostly don't spend so much time with Muggles that they would pick up the accent of Muggles who live in the same geographic area (so much for those lovely Scots accents in Barb's HP & ToGI!), so why would they pick up the accents of Muggles of their equivalent social class? I'm sure that JKR made a deliberate point of Muggle social class not mattering to the wizard class system by putting Colin Creevey the milkman's son into Gryffindor and Justin Finch-Fletchly, who was down for Eton, into Hufflepuff. (Thank you, GulPlum, for mentioning this in #45505: "Incidentally, some may not be aware of this, but the "milkman" is the archetypal English bottom-of-the-ladder in terms of social standing, wealth and any other class indicator one can mention.") Then she messed up by using the Muggle indicators of Muggle social class to portray the wizard social class of characters like the Malfoys, but that has to be a literary convention, like the movie of "Spartacus" with the Brit actors and their lovely accents as Roman aristocrats and the Yank actors as rebellious slaves. No one *really* believes that the aristocrat accent of Ancient Rome was the *same* as the aristocratic accent of twentieth century Britain! Poo, Ali already said all this better! #45557 From the.gremlin at verizon.net Sun Oct 20 06:20:21 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 06:20:21 -0000 Subject: Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45589 Julie wrote: "Do you think these words will be coming back to haunt us later in the series? Perhaps it is some sort of charm spell that continues to help protect Harry? Has this been discussed before?" Funny, my BF just mentioned those words to me because I was talking too much about Harry Potter. As for showing up later in the series, most spells seems to have some kind of Latin look to them, so I don't think they'll be a spell, especially since DD just happened to call them out during a feast, where he hadn't yet personally acknowledged Harry. I've never seen any discussion on these words; you may have just created a monster that will get its very own acronym! IMO, I think it was just a way of showing the eccentric side of DD. Up to this point in the series, we've only seen him placing Harry at the Dursley's doorstep, and things were a bit series there, even with the earmuffs and lemon drops comments. Besides, even when he mentions the earmuffs and lemon drops, it's still sort of in context. Those four words are just completely random, so you have to wonder if he is, in fact, a bit mad. -Acire, who affectionatly calls her Beta fish "He-Who-Has-No-Name" because she forgot to name him and just got lazy. No one gets it, either. From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 20 07:01:31 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 07:01:31 -0000 Subject: TBAY On the waterfront In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45590 Up in her newly turned down room in the amazingly spacious Safe House, Melody was enjoying the view of the bay. Bay waters are always the most beautiful during the calm before the storm. She amused herself watching the current skirmish on the RMS Anything!Arthur. It is amazing how many TBAYer's that thing holds. It's a regular Weasley's Burrow that floats. When out of the silence can a quick rapping at the front door. Knock, knock, knock. Melody cocked her head and listened to whether anyone was going to get it. Knock, Knock, knock. Hmm, looks like everyone is busy. Pip does seem awful busy lately, and Grey Wolf seems to be off chasing rabbits again. Scurrying down the grand stairs, Melody slides on her socks across the polished marble floor to open the oak door. Pippin was standing there with wild flowers in hand extended. "I just wanted to come by and apologies about the can(n)on malfunction. " Melody smiled and accepted the flowers for the house. "Thank you. :) Quite all right. No harm done. Gave us a bit regimental practice really." "Sneeky!" Melody called as a small house elf popped up dressed in a smashing forest green tea towel. "Sneeky, will you place these in water, and put them by Pip's desk in the study. She needs the cheering up." Sneeky squeaked, "Yes, Ma'am. Love to Ma'am." and scampered away carrying the rather large bouquet leaving Melody and Pippin at the door. "Want to come in a bit Pippin?" "Sure, but only for a bit. I have to get home and keep filling those sandbags." "Um, ok." Melody said as she closed the door behind Pippin and led her into the comfortable living room with huge bay windows that overlooks...well, the bay . Sneeky had brought the tray of tea, coffee, and apple cider, so Melody offered Pippin a refreshing beverage and asked, "So what brings you over Pippin?" "Well," Pippin said and blushed a bit taking a cup of tea, "I'm sorry I upset you. And um--I found a couple of extra cannons for the Safe House." Pippin placed two cute cannons next to the fireplace she had tucked into the pockets of her overcoat. "Thank you. How incredible generous. I'll add them to the collection to be properly shined up," Melody grinned placing the cannons on the fireplace. "I'm sorry Pip and Grey are not here to thank you as well..." She said turning back to her guest. "No, quite alright. I understand Pip's busy." replied Pippin. "We all are right now. Barely anytime for eating and sleeping let alone visiting our precious site." Pippin said with deep bags under her eyes Melody never noticed before. "Ya'll do seem a bit stretched lately." "Yeah, but it is worth it. Worth it for the coming storm." Pippin said placing her cup back on the saucer. "You really do not believe this house will survive the storm, do you?" Melody asked gently stirring her own cup of cider. She never was one for tea, hot or iced. "Well, no. Frankly I cannot say definitively, but I..." "No, no. You don't have to explain," Melody stopped her. "But I want to. You need to understand how shaky this house can be. You need to get out before it is too late." Pippin urged with care. Melody looked around at the tall column and strong construction. "I truly doubt this house is under any danger." "Oh, but it is. You have glazed over a part of canon that is vital to your survival." Pippin said excitingly. It became suddenly clear to Melody that this is why she really came over to visit. "Hmm, really?" Melody sighed sipping more cider having been slightly amused by Pippin's earnestness. "Oh yes, let me show you." Pippin continued placing her teacup on the table and reached to pull out her rather large binder entitled 'Defense Against the Dark Magical Dishwasher.' Noticing the title Melody exclaimed, "Hey! What, are they teaching a course now against us?" With a sly smile Pippin replied, "It is a small movement within the group that this particular theory is rather damaging to newbies and innocent viewers. Might fill their head with evil visions of Dumbledore. No, no we can't have that now can we? So let see...ah yes...here we go." Melody shifted in her seat to get comfortable. She knew she be here for a while. Pippin begins reading, "We don't know what Dumbledore's thinking. But we know what he's teaching: Harry's being taught that other lives are worth as much as his own. Is it consistent for Dumbledore to sacrifice an innocent life to get enough power to kill Voldemort? Would Amos Diggory understand?" "There. What do you have to say about that?" Pippin said looking up from her binder at a rather stern faced Melody. "Well..." Melody began wishing Grey or Pip would come busting through the door on blazing cannons. "Umm, well, you see..." But Pippin, excited she got Melody a bit tonuge tied, interrupted and continued reading, "And then, we know how far Dumbledore will go to protect the innocent. Twice now, he's deliberately sent Harry into jeopardy. Both times, it was for the sake of an innocent life. Once for the unicorns, and once for Buckbeak and Sirius. And Buckbeak has *no* practical value to Dumbledore's plans..." "Hey now we don't know yet whether Buckbeak has any practical value to the plan." Melody interjected. "True, true," Pippin agreed, "But for the present his only use was to take Sirius away which after all, Sirius could have escaped just as easily on a broom. Yet Harry and Hermione are sent back an extra two hours to rescue a mere beast, tripling the risk that they'll be spotted." Melody leaned back into the couch wondering if the safe house always entertained such vocal armed guests. "Given the size of a Hippogriff, I think it would be harder to spot Sirius from the ground than if he was on a broom." Pippin looked up from her binder. "Don't you think a flying Hippogriff would bring more attention to him?" "Well, we don't know how many Hippogriffs there are flying around. If it just looks like a bird from the ground, then why would anyone worry." Melody replied while staring out the windows. Cannon fire was being heard in the distance from HMS Anything!Arthur, and it looked like Cindy mightalso be walking the plank. "All speculation." Pippin retorted. "So is yours." Melody glanced up. "Ok, ok, fine. Small point anyway. But you have not defended your house views of Dishwasher!Dumbledore's obvious apathy to other student's welfare. Shouldn't he try to protect them just as much as Harry?" Pippin asked while refilling her cup of tea. She definitely was enjoying herself. Melody looked back at the ceiling trying to form in her mind the house's version of Dumbledore. "I think it is very evident that Dumbledore does want to preserve life. Any life that is innocent or redeemable." Melody finally said quietly. "So to that I agree with you." Pippin smiled, though had a funny feeling a huge 'but' was going to follow. "However, the idea the Dumbledore would *knowing* place any student in danger and *not* provide them with the weapons and skill they need is not what this Safe House up holds." Melody stated. "Any time Harry has been in mortal danger, he has been provided with everything he needed to survive and conquer. Any time Hermione or Ron have been entangled with Harry's plot they have been spared from its possible fate." "But Cedric.." Pippin exclaimed. "Yes, I know. I was getting to him. Cedric is a tough one. He was a contender for TriWiz and was on the same *dangerous* field as Harry, and trouble on that field could perceivably attack Cedric too. I cannot deny that. But, I would like to say that to date in the series, it is Harry alone that has received the death threats and attempts on his life. Harry alone was suspiciously placed into the contest. Dumbledore knew that Voldemort was after him and had no reason to believe that anyone else was in danger over Harry." Melody glanced over to Pippin who seemed to have a glazed annoyed look on her face. Nevertheless she continued, "Think of James and Lily. They were put under protection because Dumbledore knew they were in direct trouble. Now every witch, wizard, or muggle could conceivably be in danger because Voldemort was on the loose and aims to kill, but since Dumbledore knew James and Lily were especially in danger, he placed them under careful watch. Now any other wizard or witch could feel shafted and end up dead since they did not have this special protection, but it should not be blamed on Dumbledore." "Now hold on." Pippin sat up with fire behind her eyes and splashing a bit of her tea. "Dishwasher!Dumbledore knew Voldemort was coming back to life soon. He was "orchestrating" it to happen. How could he not be partly responsible for Cedric's death?" "Since Dumbledore did not know the TriWiz cup was a portkey, he had no idea that that night was the night Voldemort would return. Dumbledore was not sure when Voldemort was going to us the flawed potion, but he knew Voldemort needed Harry at some point. Was Dumbledore to keep every student five feet away from Potter just in the case Harry was magically whisked away from his close supervision?" Melody asked pulling her legs in to sit cross-legged on the couch. "Yes." Pippin replied shortly. "Dumbledore preserves life." "What sort of life then would Harry have?" Melody asked. "Well then Dumbledore should of rethought his plan without Harry in it. I'm sure there is another..." Pippin mused. "They had 10 odd years to sit around and think up a plan that will bring back Voldemort to a body that can be destroyed and thus destroy the threat on all their lives. All on their terms. Not Voldemort. If you know the weakness of an enemy, you can properly destroy them and win your battle." said Melody. "But innocent people will die. Innocent people have died." Pippin said with heart stirring her tea. Melody sighed. "That is evil's doing. Not Dumbledore's. I bet if Dumbledore knew that Cedric was in any danger, he would of been there without hesitation. He loves his students. All of them. And because of this he wants to destroy and end the evil that has haunted all of their lives for all of their life." Pippin sat down her teacup and sat back into the overstuffed chair. "I still don't know if I can agree with your line of logic. Dumbledore has too many strings attached to not even perceive that Cedric was in danger." "Dumbledore is fallible. He is not God." Melody smiled weakly. "True." Pippin sighed and looked at the time. "Gracious, I have to get going. Look at me just jabbering the day away. Elkins is going to kill me." Pippin jolted up and collected her things. "Thank you for the tea and all. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree for now." Pippin offered while heading towards the door. Close behind her to open the massive door Melody answered, "I can live with that. Fly home safely." On her way out Pippin glanced around her at the dark clouds gathering over the bay. The hurricane watch flags are stiff in the wind. Looking back at Melody Pippin quipped, "I have a feeling Hurricane Jo is going blow the safe house down without any help from me." Melody smiled, "I've lived through a hurricane before, it was quite fun really. Granted I was five, but I feel as safe in this house as I felt in my parent's then. I?m not a card carrying member of MD just because it is the biggest, loudest house on the bay, but because I find it to be the most sound to survive Hurricane Jo." Pippin, slightly amused by Melody's response, hopped on her broom and waved good-bye. Melody gently closed the door and rested the back of her head against it. And such is life in the safe house. Melody Who would like to say that TBAY is a lot of fun, but *very* time consuming From psnow at nipha.com Sun Oct 20 05:43:36 2002 From: psnow at nipha.com (MrNipha) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 05:43:36 -0000 Subject: Dark Conspiracy; was; TBAY:Weasley Predisposition To Imperius? In-Reply-To: <187.f9227e4.2ae0680e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45591 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jodel at a... wrote: > Yes. I say. I say that Harry *was* the intended recipient of the > Riddle Diary. Nothing else makes any kind of sense. WHy on earth > would Dobby try to warn Harry off of Hogwarts over a threat to > Ginny Weasley, who he hasn't even (at that point) properly met? To me, Ginny Weasley as the target of the diary makes perfect sense, as I will explain later. As to why Dobby would want to keep Harry from returning to Hogwarts, the plot was not really a threat just to the possessor of the Diary. Dobby says in COS Chap 2 - Dobby's Warning, "Dobby heard tell....that Harry Potter met the Dark Lord for a second time, just weeks ago, that Harry Potter escaped yet again....If Harry Potter goes back to Hogwarts, he will be in mortal danger....There is a plot, Harry Potter. A plot to make most terrible things happen at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry this year....Dobby has known it for months sir. Harry Potter must not put himself in peril...." The point of including the part about meeting the Dark Lord "just weeks ago", and Dobby knowing about the plot "for months" in the quote will be made clear later. We don't know how much Dobby knows about the plan, but he obviously knows about Tom Riddle's Diary (aka Lord Voldemort) and its source -- COS Chap 18 - Dobby's Reward: "The elf was doing something very odd. His great eyes fixed meaningfully on Harry, he kept pointing at the diary, then at Mr. Malfoy, and then hitting himself very hard on the head with his fists." -- and he knows there will be danger at Hogwarts because of it. We don't have to assume that Dobby knew any more than that Lord Voldemort's enchanted diary was being sent to Hogwarts to cause "most terrible things (to) happen" -- that would still be enough for Dobby to want to keep Harry from Hogwarts, away from "mortal danger". > Now, on the other end of the equation; why did Lucius Malfoy choose > *that particular moment* to deploy the Riddle diary in the first > place? Again in COS Chapter 18 - Dobby's Reward, Dumbledore and Lucius Malfoy have a conversation about the attacks at Hogwarts. After confronting Dumbledore about being back at Hogwarts after being suspended, Lucius asks him, "Have you caught the culprit?". My take on this is Lucius wants to hear the answer "Yes, it was Ginny Weasley". When Dumbledore explains that the culprit is Lord Voldemort working through another by means of the diary, Lucius responds, "I see". Dumbledore then says, "A clever plan....because if Harry here....and his friend Ron hadn't discovered this book, why Ginny Weasley might have taken all the blame. No one would ever have been able to prove she hadn't acted of her own free will....And imagine....what might have happened then. The Weasleys are one of our most prominent pure-blood families. Imagine the effect on Arthur Weasley and his Muggle Protection Act if his own daughter was discovered attacking and killing muggle-borns....". I think this gives Lucius strong motive to deploy the diary -- derailing Arthur's Muggle Protection Act -- and is the starting point for my case that Ginny was Lucius' original target to receive the Diary. > As I've stated before, I believe that one of the last things > QuirrellMort did before entering the labryinth was to owl Lucius > Malfoy to tell him to deploy the Riddle diary. And that he clearly > instructed Lucius to give it to Potter. We saw the plot go awry > when Arthur dragged Lucius into a fistfight at Flourish & Blotts > and things got personal. See above for the quote on Dobby commenting on Harry's meeting the Dark Lord (as QuirrellMort) "just weeks ago", while Dobby was aware of the Diary plot "for months", to see the first problem I have with this view. In COS Chap 4 - At Flourish & Blotts, Lucius Malfoy speaking to the shopkeeper in Nocturn Alley says, "I have not been visited yet, the name Malfoy still commands a certain respect, yet the Ministry grows ever more meddlesome. There are rumors about a new Muggle Protection Act. No doubt that flea-bitten muggle-loving fool Arthur Weasley is behind it....And as you see, certain of these poisons might make it appear...". The rest of the conversation is about Wizard's blood (purebloods) not counting for as much anymore, although Lucius states that it still does for him, and how Draco should be ashamed that a girl with no wizard blood beat him on every exam, setting the tone for the "mudblood" incidents and attacks later in the book. The timetable of the confrontation at Flourish & Blotts later on in the chapter was: 1. Lucius and Arthur greet each other coldly, Lucius makes a comment to Arthur about it being a busy time at the Ministry, and hoping that he is getting paid overtime. 2. Lucius reaches into Ginny's cauldron and picks up an old and battered copy of A Beginners Guide to Transfiguration (a *1st* year book), among the shiny new Lockhart books, and comments that it is obvious that Arthur is not getting paid overtime. 3. Lucius calls Arthur a disgrace to the name of Wizards, and Arthur replies that they have a different idea of what a disgrace is. 4. Lucius comments about the company the Arthur keeps (Hermione's muggle parents), and then Arthur goes after Lucius. 5. Hagrid breaks up the fight; Lucius still has Ginny's book and with another snide remark gives it back to Ginny. The only mention of Harry by Lucius throughout the chapter, even when they are in close proximity during the confrontation between Arthur Weasley and Lucius, is a comment to Draco before the shopkeeper appears behind the counter in Nocturn Alley, "....and I would remind you that it is not prudent to appear less than fond of Harry Potter, not when most of our kind regard him as The Hero Who Made The Dark Lord Disappear....". Lucius' mission in COS, it appears to me, is to advance the cause of pure-bloods, and if he can torpedo Arthur Weasley's Muggle protection act by using Ginny as his unwitting agent, and get Dumbledore removed from Hogwarts for his inability to stop the attacks, score two more points. I must say I fall into the more straight-forward PRESSURE COOKER camp when reading HP, and it seems to me to be a much more straight-forward view to see Lucius acting on his own to advance his own agenda in the absence of Lord Voldemort. Paul (spending 3 hours on this post locating, listening and transcribing, listening and transcribing, listening and transcribing the quotes. I really miss text-reading.) From obby at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Oct 19 23:40:12 2002 From: obby at blueyonder.co.uk (Richard Thorp) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 00:40:12 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why the Order of the Phoenix? In-Reply-To: <20021019055630.30288.qmail@web10404.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021019055630.30288.qmail@web10404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <17692346015.20021020004012@blueyonder.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 45592 Saturday, October 19, 2002, 6:56:30 AM, Vinnia wrote: >> 5) Order of the Phoenix - Secret organization created >> by, and for the explicit use of, a newly resurrected >> Voldemort. A new name for a new wave of destruction >> that will wash across the WW. Strongly disagree with this.. Phoenixes are portrayed as noble and good birds in the books, Fawkes being the obvious (only :) example. Personally I think this is going to be the name of the "War Council" (for want of a better name) that I believe Dumbledore will set up... VC> What if the order of Phoenix is not a group of people VC> at all? Interesting.. Although I still believe the above (will explain below :) VC> I believe in book 5, Harry would face Voldemort once VC> again, and the very thing that saves Harry would be VC> the fact that his phoenix feather is from a different VC> lifecycle with Voldemorts. Hence the order of phoenix VC> effect. VC> Well, thats my two cents. Very interesting! :) Good thinking :) Now to outline my theory quickly... As has happened in history, and in many a book, I believe that Dumbledore will create a rebel government... This (to me) seems to be the exact way that he (and the Hogwarts faculty) are headed at the end of GoF, with their almost open disdain for Fudge and the MoM... As above, I believe that the Order of the Phoenix will be the name for this rebellion, which will eventually usurp the actual government. Reasoning behind this is that the Ministry is coming to the end of its usefulness, evidenced by Fudge's complete inability to see or believe the obvious, that Voldemort is back. Dumbledore and co. will take it upon themselves to fix the whole problem, which will eventually lead to the Order of the Phoenix. Hope I'm not stepping on anyones toes with that one :) IMO I expect the series to progress in a similar fashion to the Star Wars: New Jedi Order series of books, in which (speaking as vaguely as possible) an invasion occurs and the government completely igores and underestimates the threat, and eventually collapses. The NJO is a good read if you're at all interested in Star Wars, by the way :) Sorry for going kinda OT there, d'oh :) -Rich msn: obbles at hotmail.com From pschmiedl at earthlink.net Sun Oct 20 00:37:02 2002 From: pschmiedl at earthlink.net (Trish in AZ) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 17:37:02 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Imperius!Weasleys References: <140.c4c971.2ae2ef42@aol.com> Message-ID: <008501c277d0$cf9ef800$0201a8c0@phx290479> No: HPFGUIDX 45593 JOdel wrote, "Or their (adolescent) third child was, who attempted to murder them and they had to A. restrain him and B. turn him over to Chrouch's brand of justice?" This would explain why prison is listed on the Weasley's clock in their home. Trishofavalon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From palantir at acss.net.au Sun Oct 20 01:38:00 2002 From: palantir at acss.net.au (Jonathan) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 11:38:00 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Karkaroff...an animagus?? Message-ID: <007601c277d9$53f57900$0400a8c0@qld.bigpond.net.au> No: HPFGUIDX 45594 I've been lurking for a couple of days on this list, and I've been watching this discussion and was wondering if anyone had brought a conclusion between the passage by Betty in her email and the Gryffindor-Hufflepuff quidditch match in PoA, and the scene in the hospital after which I believe is on pages 134 through 136. A direct quote from page 136, second line through to seventh line: 'Dumbledore was angry', Hermione said in a quaking voice. 'I've never seen him like that before. He ran onto the pitch as you fell, waved his wand, and you sort of slowed down before you hit the ground. Then he whirled his wand at the Dementors. Shot silver stuff at them. They left the stadium straight away ... he was furious they'd come into the grounds, we heard him -' --- I'd like to think that the 'silver stuff' he shot the Dementors was either a Patronum, and then in the quote that Betty gave us in her message also indicates that he used possibly a Patronus to summon Hagrid, or something else of the sort. The Patronus charm, as Remus Lupin tells us in the chapter The Patronus, on page 176, that the Patronus is an embodiment of all the things a Dementor cannot feel, hope, hapiness, etc. Could this also be friendship, which Dumbledore may have used to summon Hagrid? Just my two cents on the subject, and I shall now return to watching and hope my post is useful to this discussion. :-) -Jonathan (who is new, if you have not guessed) ---snip of Original Message by Betty: He raised his wand into the air and pointed it in the direction of Hagrid's cabin. Harry saw something silvery dart out of it and streak away through the trees like a ghostly bird. Then Dumbledore bent over Krum again, pointed his wand at him, and muttered, "Ennervate." ---End snip [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sun Oct 20 09:07:31 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 09:07:31 -0000 Subject: Krum...an animagus?? (was Karkaroff...an animagus??) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45595 barefootpuppets wrote: > Learning to be an animagus is hard work and requires oversight. Was > Krum assisted by Karkaroff? I don't think Krum is an animagus. He transfigured himself ("badly") into a shark, but not all human-animal transfigurations are Animagus transfigurations. Quidditch Through the Ages implies that they are two different things (p. 1); a student is accidentally transfigured into a badger in CS 11; and Hermione makes reference to human transfiguration in GF 26 when they're strategizing for the second task. She's talking about submarines, not animals, but the point is, people can transfigure themselves without being Animagi. Amy Z --------------------------------------------------------- "Merlin's beard," Moody whispered, staring at the map, his magical eye going haywire. "This . . . this is some map, Potter!" "Yeah, it's . . . quite useful," Harry said. --------------------------------------------------------- From karnasaur at yahoo.com Sun Oct 20 12:02:33 2002 From: karnasaur at yahoo.com (Kristjan Arnason) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 05:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Voledmort's warning to Lily before trying to kill Harry In-Reply-To: <1035073013.1813.57014.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021020120233.60292.qmail@web10406.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45596 K-lo wrote: >I've been listening to the CD-Audio book of POA and >there is one thing that I'm confused about: When >Harry hears his parents last few words before >Voldemort kills them, he hears Voldemort warning Lily >off. (POA, Page 239,US Ed.) > >Stand Aside. Stand Aside, Girl! >That's what he says, but I'm wondering is why? The >book doesn't go into too much detail as to how his >father died, but I don't think Voldemort gave >James any warning, so why give any to Lily? Why not >just kill her outright? My take on this is that LV tried to place an Imperius on Lily, but she fought it off. Being unable to control her, maybe he had uses in mind for her, he killed her. Listen to what he said. Kris __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun Oct 20 14:56:51 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 14:56:51 -0000 Subject: Krum...an animagus?? (was Karkaroff...an animagus??) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45597 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: but the point is, > people can transfigure themselves without being Animagi. > > Amy Z ---- Yes, I agree with you in general, but there is a big problem. If every wizard can turn into an animal, than what's the whole animagi thing about? What's the difference between able to transform myself into an animal, and beeing an animagus? Also, aren't all wizard who can transform themselves into animals unregistered animagi? Hickengruendler From heidit at netbox.com Sun Oct 20 15:20:26 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 11:20:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Krum...an animagus?? (was Karkaroff...an animagus??) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008201c2784c$3addd7a0$0201a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 45598 > -----Original Message----- > From: hickengruendler [mailto:hickengruendler at yahoo.de] > Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 10:57 AM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Krum...an animagus?? (was > Karkaroff...an animagus??) > > > Real-To: "hickengruendler" > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > but the point is, > > people can transfigure themselves without being Animagi. > > > > Amy Z ---- > > Yes, I agree with you in general, but there is a big problem. If > every wizard can turn into an animal, than what's the whole animagi > thing about? What's the difference between able to transform myself > into an animal, and beeing an animagus? Also, aren't all wizard who > can transform themselves into animals unregistered animagi? It's not a problem at all. JKR addressed this in Fantastic Beasts quite clearly,where she said that transfiguration into an animal means that the transfigured person has the animalian brain - in other words, when Draco was transfigured into a ferrett, he had a ferrett brain, not a wizard's one. Also in GoF, it's implied that Krum's transformation was not a wandless one, and it's clear from PoA as well that the animagus transformation is wandless. Heidi From jodel at aol.com Sun Oct 20 18:14:18 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 14:14:18 EDT Subject: On Parslemouth, was; Where's the Bang?/Hogwarts Houses Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45599 Becky writes; << I'm not so sure. In FBAWTFT it mentions "Herpo the Foul," who is Greek, in the section on Basilisks, and "writings of Parselmouths" in the Runespoor bit. While I know some are wary of its absolute canonical purity, I think that this tends to reflect JKR's mind about the rareness and origin of Parselmouths. >> It stands to reason that the "gift" of Parselmouth, while rare, occurs frequently enough for people to know that it exists. What I suspect is that it only occurs spontaneously in parts of the world where the climactic conditions are favorable for supporting a wide variety of native snakes. As one gets farther away from these parts of the world the rarer the gift of Parselmouth becomes. By the time you reach areas like Northern or Western Europe, where there may be snakes, but not in great numbers or wide varieties, Parselmouth occurs very rarely indeed, and can in virtually all cases be traced to a bloodline which decends from some known ancestor who introduced it into that geographic area when they settled there. It is not at all difficult to assume that Salazar Slytherin, or his own ancestors, settled in England after removing from some unspecified warmer climate. He was from a known "Parselmouth bloodline" and had inherited the gift. I would not be surprised to learn that since his time, all known English Parselmouths (not many, but perhaps a half dozen to a dozen) can be traced, one way or another to the Slytherin bloodline. This already accounts for Tom Riddle, and may add to the general consternation when Harry turned out to also have this gift. There could be a few other known Parselmouth bloodlines on the continent, but it adds to the drama if Slytherin's line is the only known one in England. -JOdel From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Oct 20 19:21:08 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 14:21:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lestrange's child?/ Seven Weasley Children/ missing daughter theory References: Message-ID: <020f01c2786d$dcb960a0$faa2cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45600 First of all, it was theorized that the LeStranges could in fact have a child. But who? Cho Chang was mentioned, but I doubt it. What about Viktor Krum? I just find it strange that the person who he held dearest (or whatever the wording was) in the second task was a girl he had only met a few months before. But if he indeed had no close relations, and only had those who he had been raised by it would be different. He, being eighteen, would've been about four at the time of the fall of Voldemort. The LeStranges were sentenced to Azkaban sometime after that,(for the torture of the Longbottoms probably). In which case he may have been at least five or six. Old enough to remember his real family and know that whoever raised him was, no matter how well they cared for him, they weren't his own family. Now in other things: Eileen writes: > and seven boys), I've heard that sort of thinking, but it always comes > from the people who don't have the seven or eight kids. "Oh, you're > still trying for a girl?" > > Yeah, like people really would do that in real life... Honestly. In > the past, people might try for a boy (as in Pride and Prejudice), but > those were different circumstances. Err, actually I know several people who keep trying for a boy. Not past three or four girls, mostly, but as the Weasleys live entirely in the WW, who knows how different things might be. There are, in fact, people who simply like to have kids. Then there are those who desperately want a girl/boy, and keep trying. I can think of at least three couples that fit that profile. Kris wrote: > robes, etc. handed down from his brothers. I don't > have the books with me, so I can't check this. Did > Chamber of Secrets say that Ginny had new robes made, > or get other new things (other than books)? I believe her things were bought second hand. So not new, but not hand me downs either. Which makes me wonder, couldn't a girl wear a boy's robe? In TMTCNBN the robes all look alike. But do you think they're supposed to be different for boys/girls? From editor at texas.net Sun Oct 20 19:54:43 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 14:54:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Krum...an animagus?? (was Karkaroff...an animagus??) References: <008201c2784c$3addd7a0$0201a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: <005301c27872$89b2da80$0d7763d1@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 45601 hickengrundler (or something like that) had asked: > > Yes, I agree with you in general, but there is a big problem. If > > every wizard can turn into an animal, than what's the whole animagi > > thing about? What's the difference between able to transform myself > > into an animal, and beeing an animagus? Also, aren't all wizard who > > can transform themselves into animals unregistered animagi? Heidi answered: > It's not a problem at all. JKR addressed this in Fantastic Beasts quite > clearly,where she said that transfiguration into an animal means that > the transfigured person has the animalian brain - in other words, when > Draco was transfigured into a ferrett, he had a ferrett brain, not a > wizard's one. > > Also in GoF, it's implied that Krum's transformation was not a wandless > one, and it's clear from PoA as well that the animagus transformation is > wandless. I amplify: Being transformed into an animal is passive. Someone does it to you. It's something that *happens* to you. You become an animal and do not retain your human intelligence. (I count curses and magical diseases in this class, too, because *they* act on *you.*) Being an Animagus is active. It is something you *do.* You are the caster of the spell, not the object. You remain yourself, with your intelligence, in another shape. You do not choose the shape; the implication has been pretty clear that your animal form in the Animagus spell is some sort of reflection of your personality or self. On a tangent, I am presuming the Homorphus Charm would work on both types of transformation--the charm makes one's human form be revealed, and I'd think it would work on any shape-changed human, whatcha think? --Amanda From the.gremlin at verizon.net Sun Oct 20 19:57:51 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 19:57:51 -0000 Subject: Lestrange's child? In-Reply-To: <020f01c2786d$dcb960a0$faa2cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45602 Richelle wrote: "First of all, it was theorized that the LeStranges could in fact have a child. But who? Cho Chang was mentioned, but I doubt it. What about Viktor Krum? I just find it strange that the person who he held dearest (or whatever the wording was) in the second task was a girl he had only met a few months before. But if he indeed had no close relations, and only had those who he had been raised by it would be different. He, being eighteen, would've been about four at the time of the fall of Voldemort. The LeStranges were sentenced to Azkaban sometime after that,(for the torture of the Longbottoms probably). In which case he may have been at least five or six. Old enough to remember his real family and know that whoever raised him was, no matter how well they cared for him, they weren't his own family." The LeStranges may have well been the same age as Snape, who is the same age as the Potters. The reason why I say the Lestranges were the same age is because Snape was part of that gang of Slytherins, and I'm just guessing that they were all the same age. So, anyway, now for the math part. If Snape is 36, and V-Mort was taken out thirteen years ago, so 36- 13 is...uh...23. So, unless the Mrs. LeStrange got pregnant at Hogwarts (why wouldn't I be surprised?), the oldest Krum could be is 4, if you take in the 9 months of pregnancy. So, that's a very thin line to be walking there. Of course, the LeStranges could be older than Snape...do we have any canon for this? Has the ages of the people he hung out with been discussed? -Acire, who can't think of anything to put here, but who had something to put here yesterday ann can't remember it. From m.bockermann at t-online.de Sun Oct 20 21:51:44 2002 From: m.bockermann at t-online.de (m.bockermann at t-online.de) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 21:51:44 -0000 Subject: Why the Order of the Phoenix? References: <1035122322.5319.32324.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <007301c27883$727ae220$02f99b3e@computer> No: HPFGUIDX 45603 Hi Rich! Rich wrote: >>>Now to outline my theory quickly... As has happened in history, and in many a book, I believe that Dumbledore will create a rebel government... This (to me) seems to be the exact way that he (and the Hogwarts faculty) are headed at the end of GoF, with their almost open disdain for Fudge and the MoM... As above, I believe that the Order of the Phoenix will be the name for this rebellion, which will eventually usurp the actual government. Reasoning behind this is that the Ministry is coming to the end of its usefulness, evidenced by Fudge's complete inability to see or believe the obvious, that Voldemort is back. Dumbledore and co. will take it upon themselves to fix the whole problem, which will eventually lead to the Order of the Phoenix. IMO I expect the series to progress in a similar fashion to the Star Wars: New Jedi Order series of books, in which (speaking as vaguely as possible) an invasion occurs and the government completely igores and underestimates the threat, and eventually collapses. The NJO is a good read if you're at all interested in Star Wars, by the way :) I *really* like your theory, most of it. I feel that it fits in better than a connection to Fawkes or as the name of defenders during Voldemort's first reign. Between Aurors and Unspeakables I feel that another defending organisation of wizardes and witches back then would be a kind of overkill. As further support of the Order of the Phoenix Rebells I'd like to bring attention that in GoF warned Fudge Dumbledore that he would loose his position if he claimed such nonsense as Voldemort's return. That is the same Fudge that has already suspended Dumbledore once and who is always - and very unfavourably - compared to Dumbledore. So I think it very likely that, encouraged by Malfoy and his buddies, Fudge will actually pull that through and suspend him, either at the beginning of book 5 or at the end (giving us a nasty cliffhanger) if Dumbledore can sooth him a bit more. Put the kind of preparations Dumbledore starts at the end of GoF really reminds me of someone preparing for a retreat. A strategical retreat, not a flight. IIRC, JKR said in her last interview that it was indeed Mrs. Figg who would be the next DADA teacher. If she really guarded Harry all these years, she could continue to do so while Dumbledore was away from Hogwarts. In any case, the relationship between Fudge and Dumbledore at the end of GoF is such, that Dumbledore indeed believes that it is necessary to form a group that will try to do the right thing, since the government will *not* do that. The only point you make that I don't agree with is that Dumbledore's group will usurp the government, because: 1) it doesn't fit with Dumbledore. If he was the power guy, he'd have aimed for the ministry post long ago. 2) because of the name: Order of the *Phoenix*. The Phoenix is a bird that, after it's death, rises from the ashes. I take it to mean that Dumbledore won't take the government from Fudge. The later will ruin it by himself (possibly meeting a similiar fate as Borleias over in Star Wars NJO) and the Order of the Phoenix will be the gang that tries to defeat Voldemort from the rubble Fugde's and his ally's passing will leave behind. Greetings, Ethanol From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sun Oct 20 20:26:47 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 20:26:47 -0000 Subject: TBAY: The never ending TAGWATCH Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45604 Far, many, many miles to the North of the paradisaic beaches and warm tropical waters of the Theory Bay lies a desert of snow and ice. The Northen reaches, were permanent ice rules the year, home to some of the most dangerous animals of BayWorld. Lately, a storm is coming to the Bay, and all over the BayWorld, its effects have been patent, but in these frozen lands, it is barely distinguisable from the cold wind that reigns supreme, day after day. It is in these dangerous lands that the Grey Wolf grew and developed. It is here that he learnt of his curse, and here that he first heard the call of the wind. For this is his hunting ground, his real home. Whenever he grows tired of the constant fighting and wars of Theory Bay, it is here that he comes to rest and regenerate his strength, so he can come back into the fighting once again. For he knows that, in a war, your own weariness can loose more battles than the best prepared enemy. In these lands -so far, unscathed by human hands- Grey Wolf relaxes and meets himself, adquiring the focus that allows him to fight in a world that is not his own, in words that his mouth was not designed to pronounce. The grey shadow has been gone for a few days, basking in the pleasure of cold winds and frozen lakes, hunting and re-stablishing the dominance over his range, but a change in the winds seems to baffle him. He hasn't heard such calling in a long while, but he knows very well what it means. The voyage is long, but there is a destination in mind. And, after all, it is not the first time. The deer he had been after is long gone and, besides, there is little time for diversions right now. Raising his muzzle to the skies, the snowed plain's silence is shatered by the howl of the Wolf. After smelling the wind, the Grey Wolf turns south and starts running the first steps of his long voyage South. A long way to the South, Melody is examining the safe house, looking around in bewilderment at all the microphones, cameras, and recording devices that can be found. And at the computers, rigged to store everything that goes on in almost every part of the Bay, just in case someone needs it sometime. While looking out a window, Melody notices a wolf form speeding towards the house. Alarmed at first, she quickly realizes who the form is. "Aiming for the north door, I see. Now I understand why that door is operable by paws", she muses. A few seconds later, a door is opened, followed almost immediately by another one. A few minutes pass, with strange sounds coming from behind the door. Then, a low-pitched voice calls Sneaky into the room. Melody decides to sit down, giving Grey Wolf time to change... in more than one sense. After a while, the hairy, clawed and fanged form of the werewolf state of Grey Wolf appears in the door to one of the multiple common rooms. This one offers an excelent view of the Bay. Stooping a bit, he enters the room. "Hi, Melody", says the Grey Wolf in what would be a cheery manner if it wasn't being said by a 6' 6" werewolf weighting over 200 pounds, "Have you moved in definetely? Do you like your logins?" "Hi, Grey Wolf", answers Melody, "yes, I have moved in and I love my room. It is so big! What brings you here? I thought you were off someplace to hunt rabbits" "I was, indeed, but there are responsabilities. Before becoming a member of the Safe House, and a MAGIC DISHWASHER defender I was part of a very select company. It was previous to your time, though, so you might not have heard of it. We were called TAGWATCH" "Oh, I have heard of them: they were in charge of making acronyms for the Bay and its ships" answers Melody excitedly "I thought it had disapeared though. You mean you are part of it?" "Yes, indeed I am: Tabouli's And Grey Wolf's Acronym Tempering Company Headquarters. However, after Tabouli's extended leave of abscence from Theory Bay (although unconfirmed rumours say she's floating someplace just beyond the horizon), our service has been forgotten, just to be substituted by DIY tools. Still, TAGWATCH will always be there for anyone that needs an acronym. Which brings me to bussiness. While I was hunting in the North, I heard a call in the wind. Now, I've been out of touch, but I understand that a few theories have been floating around, and I have received two acronym petitions." "Why did you come here, then? Are they in some way related to the safe house?" "One of them might, yes, be housed here, although that is for its owner to decide. No, I came here because here is were I've been keeping my clothes" explained Grey Wolf. He was, in fact, wearing a very elegant dark suit and shirt with a matching tie. "I need help to put it on (I tend to rip clothes), but I find it quite nice. I did it myself, you know?" "Yes, Pip told me that you had skills in that direction" "Anyway, to the business at hand", said Grey Wolf, suddenly looking business-like, "All of the acronym petitions come from a new ship, a speeding boat, -a Cal, I think (although I admit a poor knowledge of ships in general)- by the name of THE FIRST MEMORY FRIEND. It seems that the crew is branching out. It seems that they look for interesting canons in the waters of the bay, rescue them, restore them and build a theory around them. For example, look at this first case. Sneaky, the controler!" Within a moment the efficient elf had deposited an oversized controler in the Grey Wolf's hand, were it rested confortably. He carefully pressed a few buttons, and a tape started to reproduce: > Dudley is still technically half transfigured. He has spent four of > his formative years as a half-human and half-porcine being. > Surgically removing his tail could not possibly have reversed > Hagrid's failed transfiguration spell. I'm currently researching the > growth rate and life span of hogs, and wonder if perhaps growing up > in a magical state is affecting his "muggle" status. Could he > possibly absorb magic and someday learn some of his own? "Where did you get *that* from? I haven't heard about it in the Bay" says Melody, amazed. "Never restrict yourself to only what *seems* to be going on, Mel. A spy theoric must always be prepared to see what is under the surface. Where I got it is irrelevant. The important thing is that someone - maybe Meg, possibly Frankie - will come by to pick the fruits of my labour, and you have to know what's going on. I'm afraid that I'll probably not be able to stick around to give them directly. Anyway, according to TBAY law, every theory is entitled an acronym, even if it has no followers, so even if no-one wants it, I've created this". Grey wolf pulls out a piece of paper seemingly out of nothing and passes it to Melody. She immediately notices that it has been signed by a wolf's paw. "RATS BE DISEASES? (Removing A Tail Shouldn't Be Enough: Dudley Is Still Enpigged After Spell-Enduced Shapeshift). That doesn't make much sense, Grey" "I know. But they are: Rats are known for transmiting loads of diseases (most of them, really, are transmitted by the rats' fleas, but nevermind picky details). I thought, however, that Captain Meg would enjoy that not-so-subtle reference to her main ocupation outside the Bay. Anyway, pressing on, I have also examined this other tidbit:" continues Grey Wolf while turning a wheel and throwing a switch. > Lucius is making great strides through the WW as seen in CoS, PoA and > the beginning of GoF. I maintain that he's not in the least bit > interested in having Lord Voldemort back in the picture and will > undermine him now that he is. "This was actually explained in detail in post #45245, the Lucius Factor. I expect that Frankie will want to pick this up personally, so she might just come around to pick both of the acronyms, or maybe the Captain will feel it's her duty. Anyway, before I ramble off, here you go" This time, Melody is almost sure that Grey Wolf has produced the paper out of thin air. At any rate, she accepts the paper and reads: "I LUV' SAILING OPS: Intelligent Lucius Undermines Voldemort: Secret Agenda Improves Lucius' Intense & Neverending Grasp Of Power & Superiority" "There you go", says Wolf, "And now, I have to get going. Thanks for taking care of the safe house in my abscense, Melody. And tell Pip, if you see her, that I droped by. See you" And with those words, the Grey Wolf leaves the room. Within moments, soft steps can be heard leaving the house, and a grey form can be watched running towards the northern reaches once more. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sun Oct 20 20:30:58 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 21:30:58 +0100 Subject: Order of the Phoenix: A different view References: <1035122322.5319.32324.m12@yahoogroups.com> <007301c27883$727ae220$02f99b3e@computer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45605 Hi, I've been reading the debate over the OoP, but I think that it won't be as visible or as important as people have been implying. In the first few titles, The Philopster's stone was never really seen at all, the Chamber of Secrets is only visited in the second-to-last chapter and the Goblet of Fire makes one appearance in book 4. The prisoner of Akcaban, sirus black, does make more than a brief appearance though. That's one out of four. To summarize, while the OoP will be important to the plot, we will not see as much of it as everyone seems to expect. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sun Oct 20 20:58:12 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 16:58:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Corruption Of Fudge? Message-ID: <19b.a6fa085.2ae472e4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45606 Dan: > There's something all together "wrong" about the character of Fudge. > Apologies if this has been bought up before but I couldn't find > anything so I thought I'd run with this thread No, you're not the first on this list to suspect that there's something up with the Minister for Magic, but as it's a subject dear to my heart (FIE!)*, I'm glad to see it raised again. <>> Rumour has it that Fudge is either one of these: > > 1) Working for Voldemort. A Death Eater and a faithful servent > 2) Used to work for Voldemort but doesn't now > 3) Is a corrupt official who is only interested in his own power > levels and allies with certain *people* to keep himself at a high > level > 4) A bumbling ignorant > My own view is that he is several of these, as you will see. > First, lets take a look at Fudge's actions and parts in each of the > books, then look at the pros and cons of the above theories > > PS/SS > > We are first made aware of the character of Fudge when Hagrid > collects Hagrid. Hagrid is dismissive of him which leads the question > as to how Fudge became Minister of Magic? He says that they wanted > Dumbledore for the job but he refused showing that the candidates are > probably not elected by the general public. So how do they get in? > Are they voted for within the Ministry? This is another question that has been raised before, but I'm not sure that I remember that particular piece of evidence being brought to bear OK, quiet there, I'm sure that lots of people did. I just don't recall. It could be that Dumbledore declined to stand for election. OTOH, it could be that the Minister is selected (but by whom? the PM?) as is the case with Muggle Cabinet Ministers. The political stucture of the WW and its relationship with Muggle government are far from clear. I think it's fairly obvious that in RL, it is not always the best candidates for the job that get into positions of high office. In the WW, it does rather seem that having influence is rather important. > > We also see that Fudge is very reliant on Dumbledore for advice. I > can't see Dumbledore sitting back and letting Fudge take control if > he had any suspicion that Fudge was dodgy. But, in fact as you point out later, in some ways he *isn't* in control. Perhaps Dumbledore feels Fudge is safer where he is. Dumbledore advises him and so has great influence at the highest level, whilst being free of the constraints of office. I don't think Dumbledore views him as 'dodgy' as such, although he evidently has misgivings about his true nature and character. If he were more competent and less dependent on Dumbledore, then he would be potentially more dangerous. This is one reason why The Parting of the Ways is so significant. > > Later, Dumbledore is called away under suspicious circumstances. Now, > Dumbledore is not perfect but he is surely not idiot enough to be > fooled by a fake letter. He appears to have an eerie knowledge of > what goes on in and around Hogwarts the vast majority of the time. He > appears to have known Quirrel for awhile so would not be fooled by a > fake sig. Is it purely coincidental that Fudge called Dumbledore away > at that time? Could this mean he may have been in cahoots with > Quirrel? Or that he pulls of what I call "the Polonius" and behind > his bumbling exterior, he, like Polonius in Hamlet, is actually quite > sharp underneath it all, put two and two together quicker than > Dumbledore and sent an owl out telling Dumbledore to get himself down > to the Ministry? Do we actually know it was *Fudge* who called Dumbledore to the Ministry? I see no problem in a fake communication of some kind being employed to dupe Dumbledore. If Fudge *were* being sharp, then it wasn't sharp enought to realise that Dumbledore *needed* to be at Hogwarts. The call to London, if it ever existed, is surely not coincidental. (I have great problem with the story that Dumbledore got to London and then flew back again in the space of those few hours, I must confess.) As a side note, I have recently come to the conclusion that his rapid return may have been in response to a summons from Snape after he overheard the Trio discussing the fact that he (as they thought) knew how to get past Fluffy. > > Book 2, we see Fudge in the flesh for the first time and he is > alligned with Lucius Malfoy. Bad sign. We see throughout that he has > a lot of respect for Malfoy. In fact, its nothing short of ass > kissing. In fact, he's supposed to be the Minister. I get the feeling > that Fudge isn't that well off so likes to latch on to people that > are: the Malfoys. Or even more, the fact that Lucius has lots of *influence*, one way and another. That is to say, people are *frightened* of him *and* he has outward respectability from his charitable donations. > > Anyway, he enters Hagrid's hut with Dumbledore and Lucius in tow. > He's not willing to overrule Lucius when he wants Dumbledore out. He > is the Minister, he probably could demand that Dumbledore stay if he > wanted to. Recent example of this at work is recently when two pupils > were expelled from a school, the headteacher and governers all agreed > on their expulsion but an appeal court allowed them back in. Although > there is a huge fuss about it, unless the parents pull the pupils > out, there's not a lot anyone can do about it. I think we need to > take a look at who really is the Minister here! It seems that Lucius > and Dumbledore (linked as they are the advisories of Fudge) are > jointly in charge through Fudge! Its a strange situation It is, indeed. Fudge, frankly is an incompetent. He normally depends on Dumbledore for advice, but given a choice between him and Lucius, I think he'd go with Lucius, because Lucius is *dangerous* in the short term in a way Dumbledore isn't. Dumbledore gives second chances, doesn't he? Lucius, OTOH, threatens to curse the families of those who don't co-operate with him. I think it is fairly safe to assume that even if he didn't make the same kind of threats to Fudge as he did to the school governors, Fudge might be frightened of what he might do. How does he get away with it? I'd love to know, but he does seem fairly unassailable, doesn't he? I wonder if it is because he knows things about Fudge? > > He shows more loyalty to Lucius than Dumbledore although he feebly > protests. He takes Hagrid to Azkaban which shows the first signs of > his bias. An old rumour of an event fifty years ago and the fact that > Hagrid is a half giant is enough to convince him. Well, we know what Dumbledore says later about Fudge having too much respect for so-called purity of blood. And details of what happened fifty years ago and how much was known or believed about Hagrid's involvement are rather confusing (and the subject of long and heated recent debate). > > Does he know about the diary? Well, at the moment its like asking if > Gertrude knew about Old Hamlet's murder. You just don't know. If he > did then why take Hagrid away? Leave him there and when Ginny > disappears, say its Hagrid's fault, Tom will finish Harry off, > destroy the diary, get Voldemort back. If he didn't, why leave the > school undefended against a creature from hell? I don't think he knew about the diary. That was Malfoy's fiendish little plot. Why leave the school undefended? Well, I don't think he believed the Monster of Slytherin story. I think he must either have believed that Hagrid was in some way responsible and that the attacks would stop, or that at the least, removing Hagrid would at last prove his guilt or innocence. Or that's the story Malfoy spun to him. I think it's clear that his actions here are dictated by Malfoy. > > Book 3 > > Ok, he had more of a key role in PoA. He was the first to meet Harry. > He knew exactly where to be, his timing was perfect. Outside the > Leaky Cauldron. He's supposed not to have known Harry had caught the > nightbus. Ern and Stan couldn't have relayed a message to them as: > > 1) They thought he was Neville Longbottom > 2) Harry was with them the whole time > 3) I wouldn't imagine either of them could leave or apparate "just > like that" In fact, I wouldn't imagine them being able to apparate at > all > > So what was Fudge doing there? It seems too much of a coincidence to > be a coincidence, the fact that he was there just as the bus pulled > up. It is, indeed. A huge coincidence. And he doesn't even seem surprised that Harry turns up. I can't explain it at all. Unless the Dumbledore's Watch people are right and it is Dumbledore who has told Fudge where he was. But even if he had located himn on the bus, he wouldn't necessarily have known where it was bound. > > Also, the overheard conversation. I didn't realise it until the > fourth book had all sunk in but a comment Fudge made, made me very > suspicious. I don't have the third book on me at the moment so it may > not be the exact quote but here is the gist of it: > > "you know who alone and friendless is one thing but give him back his > most devoted servant and I shudder to think how fast he will rise" > > Well, Voldemort's servant did escape that night. Granted, Fudge will > obviously think its the wrong person (Sirius) but either way you look > at it, whether you believe Sirius' innocence or not, Voldemort's > *faithful* servant did escape that night. So in GoF Fudge suddenly > dismisses the idea that Voldemort has returned. Does he believe that > Sirius is dead? Does he know that Sirius is innocent, that Wormtail > has gone back but does not believe that he is faithful? Its a very > odd situation seeing that as Sirius has eluded everyone's clutches > and the Dementors apparently weren't searching for him in GoF as he > could take risks such as breaking into people's houses, nobody (or at > least nobody who is willing to talk) knows anything about Sirius' > whereabouts, wouldn't it occur to Fugde, what with the hysteria of > the previous year, that Sirius may have sought out Voldemort? (On a > side note, why has Dumbledore not told Hagrid about Sirius' > innocence?) Good point. As will become clear, I tend to the interpretation that he knows of Sirius' innocence. His dismissal of Voldemort's return, though I think is unrelated. > > Fudge also appears at the end and about Sirius' escape, the first > thing a respectable politician may consider is, "oh God, people's > safety" As far as we know that Fudge is concerned, this guy is a > remorseless killer who thinks nothing of murdering innocent victims. > Yet what is the first thing he says: (apologies again for not getting > the exact quote) > > "we had Black cornered and he slipped through our fingers again. I'll > be a laughing stock, the Daily Prophet'll have a field day" > > His own image appears more important than people's saftey. I think this is also dead on. <>> > Also, back to the overheard conversation Fudge says he was first on > the scene of Sirius' arrest. This is an idea I heard on another > board, so I can't take credit for it but its a good theory. Its that, > Fudge maybe took bribes from people such as Malfoy to get to the > scene of a crime and destroy evidence linking them to it.,. Good possibility, though I have a different theory. > <> > Notice when the Malfoy's come in Fudge pays them a lot more respect > than he does the Weasley's. We know why he pays Harry *respect* but > he bows and goes into "bumbling old fool" mode. Again, the comparison > with Polonius. And notice how he conveniently fails to hear Malfoy's > directed insult at Arthur. Does he hear it and secretly agree with > Malfoy? Or choose not to acknowledge it as he wants to stay onside > with Malfoy because of his wealth and the power he has? Also, note > that Lucius doesn't let his "respectable citizen" act drop around > Fudge which could signify that he is bothered about what Fudge thinks > or what he can get out of Fudge if Fudge learns to trust him. I > suspect the latter. I think this all has to do with the fact that Fudge has an old-fashioned, well, more than that, reactionary, elitist mindset. I think he genuinely shares values with Malfoy. He dismisses Arthur for the same reasons as Malfoy does. And yes, they have a symbiotic relationship. Malfoy's influence may have helped Fudge get where he is and be helping to keep him there and having the Minister for Magic in your pocket is pretty useful for Malfoy. Just why has that secret cache under his living room floor never been investigated, I wonder? > <>Also, after the fiasco with the Dark Mark, Fudge is noticibly absent > from the forest scene. The high ups of the Ministry are there. Crouch > snr, Malfoy (although of course in disguise) but Fudge is absent. I'm not with you about Malfoy, here. He *isn't* an MoM official as far as I'm aware and appears to have been running about in DE get-up, Muggle-baiting at the time. As > is Dumbledore from the whole thing which is surprising as we know > he's started to put two and two together what with Frank Bryce and > Bertha Jorkins. Could Fudge's disappearence be due to the fact that > he was in the crowd that tortured the Robertses? No, I don't think we can imply this. We don't know where he was, but we don't know that he was missing, either. Even the most blind o> f people must have noticed Malfoy's blatent bigotry > against > everything remotely related to Muggles. And the disappearence (what > happened to the body?) of Frank Bryce doesn't bother Fudge all that > much, despite the fact that he should know Tom Riddle's history. And > if Dumbledore has kept what happened in CoS from him, it must be for > a good reason. He's the Minister Of Magic. As you say, Frank Bryce is a Muggle and Fudge is too short-sighted to believe anything from the Muggle world to have importance to the WW. Dumbledore tells us that keeping up with Muggle news is unusual. As for the body....I think we can probably assume that Nagini *did* get fed that night, despite Pettigrew's reprieve. <> > Then he tries, for want of a better term, to fob Harry off and send him back > to class. > He must know he came up to Dumbledore for a reason. So why try and > send him away? Does he think he knows something and might spill and > this is Fudge's way of being discreet? Mm... you know, I think this is just the sort of thing that happens. I don't find it anywhere near as annoying as Snape's preventing Harry from reaching Dumbledore to tell him about the madness of Mr Crouch. > > Also, interesting that Fudge has stationed himself inside the grounds > as he's going to become the judge for the third task. Could this be > so he can excuse himself from apparating to Voldemort due to the "no > apparation on the Hogwarts grounds" thing? Does he want to avoid > Voldemort but make out to him that he is a faithful servant by > keeping an eye on things at Hogwarts? <> Valid point, though I think not. > <>I think, no matter what side Fudge is on, > Cedric's death knocked him temporarily for six. <> > > But then; aha! Suspicous part! He shouts that Harry needs to get to > the hospital wing. Then, right on cue, who should appear but > Moody/Crouch who suggests the hospital wing. Interesting coincidence. > And if you don't believe in coincidences, this is extremely dodgy. > Fudge doesn't turn and try and calm the crowd. Is Fudge purposely > distracting Dumbledore so Crouch can get Harry away to kill him while > at the same time signalling for Crouch to take him as if Fudge > himself disappeared, the crowds would know that something is amiss > and he does not want to give up his position as Minister? If you want to believe that Fudge *is* an active Voldemort supporter, then yes, it is highly suspicious. OTOH,his lack of trying to do anything to stay the crowd's alarm may simply be because he's supremely incompetent. > > And Fudge doesn't bother coming up for himself. If Dumbledore hasn't > told him that something is up, his trust is wavering and if he hasn't > then Fudge's position is now extremely dodgy. Its Dumbledore, > McGonagall and Snape who appear. However, in Fudge's defence, Crouch > doesn't mention him once under Veritaserum What Dumbledore needs at that moment is trusted, *competant* wizards. Snape and McGonagall will get onto the same wavelength, believe him, trust him, obey him instantly. Dumbledore doesn't have time to argue the toss with Fudge, then have him bumbling in, saying "Look here, perhaps we'd better hear what Moody has to say for himself, etc,". Fudge *fudges*. Dumbledore is a decisive man of action. And in any case, he *should* have been with Cedric's parents. > > Dumbledore tells Snape to go to the grounds and find Fudge. What is > Fudge doing? If he was with the Diggory's, Dumbledore would have > said, "go and find Fudge, he's talking to the Diggory's" and later he > states that he must speak to them, so it seems as if he doesn't know > exactly where Fudge is at that moment. Wouldn't Fudge have gone up to > the school when he noticed Dumbledore, McGonagall and Snape all gone? In that confusion? I don't know. I'm inclined to think he may have gone to pieces a bit! > > Then its THE scene. The big one. Fudge strides up the ward and > demands to see Dumbledore and is livid. What reason has he got to be > livid? The insubordination of Dumbledore's staff? He's destroyed Crouch... if I was anyone else, I'd be upset or > > glad the mess is sorted more than anything about what's happened. And > also, what distracted Dumbledore's attention? He tells Harry that > he "must meet with Fudge" Also, note he doesn't call him Mr Fudge, > he's always insisted Harry call Snape, Professor. But he isn't > bothered by addressing Fudge, who's the equivilent of Prime Minister > by his proper name. Is this a sign of lack of respect and suspicion? I haven't got examples to hand, but I have a strong feeling that Dumbledore is rather inconsistent in the matter of how he addresses and expects students to refer to others. > When he says that he must meet with Fudge he goes but when Fudge > comes back he demands to know where Dumbledore is. So Dumbledore > can't have gone to seen Fudge. Or they missed each other. It must have taken some time to grab a > Dementor, get it to Hogwarts, get it > to suck Crouch's soul, then hotfoot it down to the hospital wing. So where > did Dumbledore go? We know it wasn't to see the Diggory's. He saw them > later. And he > obviously didn't know that the Dementor was around or he wouldn't > have let it in, he'd have sent it out, so he would have to be far > removed from the situation as it took place. Good questions. Dunno! > > Snape says that Fudge felt that "his personal safety" was in > question. Why? What reason has Crouch got to harm him? And wouldn't > he still be doped up after the Veritaserum? Surely Snape told Fudge > about the Veritaserum before the Kiss? *Exactly!* Just what might he go on to say under the influence of Veritaserum? Does he know any of Fudge's secrets? It is true that he doesn't finger Fudge ender the influence of Veritaserum, but then he only answered the questions Dumbledore *asked*. Not the ones he might have gone on to ask. > > Then, the big line IMO. > > "the moment that - that thing entered the room" she screamed pointing > at Fudge, trembling all over, "it swooped down on Crouch and... > > This is McGonagall here! She's pretty cool usually, maximum > composure. And she gestures at Fudge when she says "that thing". Loyalty to Dumbledore, I think and a sharing of his horror of Dementors. And > Molly Weasley's comment later, "he knows what Fudge is" What is Fudge? > And it said that Dumbledore then saw him clearly for the first > time... Very dodgy I simply interpret that as the 'proper wizarding pride' thing again and Dumbledore's realisation of the lengths to which he will take it and of how deep his head is stuck in the sand. > > And he keeps smiling, its not hysterical like Sirius, he keeps > grinning, "a curious smile", "a strange smile" Then he starts about > Harry being a Parseltongue. Anything that discredits what Harry's > saying He really doesn't want to believe that Voldemort is back. I think he has his reasons. > > <> > > The pros and cons of the four points are all in there. > What's everyone's theory? 1,2,3 or 4 > > Well, I first got interested in Fudge as a result of a private obsession with the problem of why Pettigrew was unarmed in the Shrieking Shack, despite the fact that Animagi seem to transform along with their accoutrements. Like you, I homed in on the fact that Fudge was on of the first at the scene of Pettigrew's faked death. Like you, I was curious about his attitude to Sirius (and also about the fact that Sirius never tried to prove his innocence). Like you, I was intrigued by why he acted so preciptately in the matter of the Kissing of Barty Crouch. In conclusion, I hatched a theory that he was Pettigrew's accomplice, destroying or hiding Sirius' wand and substituting Pettigrew's 'guilty' one in its place. I speculated that his apparent concern to find Harry and the personal lengths he went to to keep abreast of the Sirius Black situation were precisely because he didn't want the innocent Sirius to have the chance to get Dumbledore (either directly or via Harry) on his side. I speculated that he might have been one of Rookwood's network within the MoM. I did not suggest that he was actually a DE (whom I believe to be Voldemort's *inner* circle), but that he was corruptible and had done things during Voldmort's ascendency that he had a vested interest in keeping quiet. I *do* think that he really doesn't want to believe that Voldemort has returned. After all, he fudges. Now he will have to decide where his loyalties lie. And he wants a quiet life! This is just a brief summary. I originally posted my ideas in message number 35393 and it was followed up in the Cornelius Fudge is Ever-So-Evil thread. So, in conclusion I don't think he is exactly any one of the four categories you suggest, but a bumbling incompetent who made some pretty big mistakes, got involved indirectly with Voldemort's machine and allowed himself to be corrupted in the pursuit of personal gain and now really, really doesn't want Voldemort back, not just for the reasons that any good wizard would want him back, but also because there are debts that may be called in and divided loyalties that need to be settled. Time will tell! Eloise * FIE = Fudge Is Evil, the rallying cry of those of us who think that he is more than a Chamberlain-like figure. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From the.gremlin at verizon.net Sun Oct 20 21:31:07 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 21:31:07 -0000 Subject: Fudge's Plan Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45607 So I'm re-reading GoF, and I was wondering, has anyone considered the fact that Fudge knowingly brought the Dementor up to see Crouch Jr., so that he could destroy the only person who could give a believable testimony to V-Mort's return? By the time Snape goes to summon Fudge, Fudge had already heard a little bit about V-Mort being involved with the events of the night, and he feared that Crouch Jr. would, in fact be able to give a believable testimony and he was just hoping that by destroying the only capable witness, this whole V-Mort thing would just all go away. "By all accounts, he's no loss!" blustered Fudge. (pg. 703, US Paperback) The passage following that goes like this: "But he cannot now give testimony, Cornelius," said Dumbledore. He was staring hard at Fudge, as though seeing him plsinly for the first time. "He cannot give evidence about why he killed those people." DD is staring hard at Fudge because he realized that Fudge is bent on ignoring this all, and that he knew the Dementor would preform it's kiss. And, Fudge's taglines on this page are 'blustered', and when someone blusters, they are usually searching for words to say. So, how's the theory? -Acire, who found Fudge for 3 dollars per 1/4 pound yesterday...and was appalled! Fudge is worth so much less than that! (On a side note, I bought some, and it's really good.) From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 20 21:56:55 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 21:56:55 -0000 Subject: The Corruption Of Fudge? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45608 Dan tediously wrote a long essay about the appearances of Fudge in the series thus far. He began by listing: > Rumour has it that Fudge is either one of these: > > 1) Working for Voldemort. A Death Eater and a faithful servent > 2) Used to work for Voldemort but doesn't now > 3) Is a corrupt official who is only interested in his own power > levels and allies with certain *people* to keep himself at a high > level > 4) A bumbling ignorant and then asking at the end: > The pros and cons of the four points are all in there. > What's everyone's theory? 1,2,3 or 4 Me: I always thought of Fudge as the typical, insecure politician that greatly desired the glory of the job. I don't really think of him as corrupt but rather just easily manipulated. (why does that word always come up in my posts? ) Let me follow your excellent run down to try and explain how #3 and #4 can combine to make a happy #5. PS/SS >>>We are first made aware of the character of Fudge when Hagrid collects Hagrid. Hagrid is dismissive of him, which leads the question as to how Fudge became Minister of Magic? He says that they wanted Dumbledore for the job but he refused showing that the candidates are probably not elected by the general public. So how do they get in? Are they voted for within the Ministry?<<< I don't see this as a big issue. I figured Dumbledore took himself off the ballot which probably now held the names Fudge and Crouch Sr. Given that Crouch Sr. was not in high regard at the time beause of his son's demise, I think it is safe to say that the WW would vote for Fudge as the lesser of two evils. >>>Later, Dumbledore is called away under suspicious circumstances. Now, Dumbledore is not perfect but he is surely not idiot enough to be fooled by a fake letter.<<< Very true. Dumbledore would know Fudge's writing. My personal opinion about that letter relies on Dumbledore knowing that the path to the stone labyrinth was going to be breeched and wanted Potter to go after Quirrelmort...but that was an earlier post (#45283) and I have no need to argue that now. If in fact Fudge did send the letter, then he could of been *blindly* pushed to do so. Voldemort or his supporters could of created a situation in the Ministry that would of caused Fudge to call on Dumbledore for help. It has already been established, and well known in the Wizard World (i.e. Hagrid knew), that Fudge relied a lot on Dumbledore. It would not be hard to use this for their advantage. Hmm, need to work that as a possibility in my side bait stone theory.... CoS >>>Book 2, we see Fudge in the flesh for the first time and he is alligned with Lucius Malfoy. Bad sign. We see throughout that he has a lot of respect for Malfoy. In fact, its nothing short of ass kissing. In fact, he's supposed to be the Minister. I get the feeling that Fudge isn't that well off so likes to latch on to people that are: the Malfoys.<<< I see Fudge's actions and attention to Malfoy as being completely political. Obviously, Fudge greatly appreciates the money Malfoy is giving and feels a bit of obligation, as politicians often do, to give Malfoy more concern. Having a politician, especially a weak one with a lot of given power, is something that is greatly desired by those who wish to slide under the law a bit. In Borgin and Burkes on Knockturn Alley, Lucius practically spells it out. "I have not been visited yet. The name Malfoy still commands a certain respect..." (CoS, Ch 4) Now that respect does not come from just being a pureblood line. It is all tied around money and influence. What Malfoy states as respect is actually a bit of fear on the ministry's side. A fear that Malfoy will not donate as he does to their needs if they mettle in his affairs. It is a card Malfoy loves to possess. I think this is why Fudge is shown as being "bias" to Lucius' viewpoint. Lucius is a bit of a sweet talker that can influence weak-minded Fudge it seeing things from his perspective. In Hagrid's hut... >>>It's a strange situation. He shows more loyalty to Lucius than Dumbledore although he feebly protests. He takes Hagrid to Azkaban, which shows the first signs of his bias. An old rumour of an event fifty years ago and the fact that Hagrid is a half giant is enough to convince him.<<< I does seem Malfoy played on Fudge's prejudices a bit. Made him see that Dumbledore is wrong to trust so much. This is showing a shift in Fudge's influenced decision making. Maybe it changed because Voldemort (as Quirrelmort) commanded Malfoy to get Fudge in their pocket for him. Fudge still believes that Dumbledore is most powerful and most able to conquer evil, but he is torn because of Malfoy's influence. Ask a North Carolina politician if he approves of his children smoking, but then look how he/she votes on the issue. The views and actions of politicians are often very contradictor. PoA >>>Ok, he had more of a key role in PoA. He was the first to meet Harry. He knew exactly where to be, his timing was perfect. Outside the Leaky Cauldron.<<< Harry is *very* important to the WW as at least as a symbol. If he were to go missing, Fudge would have a very outraged constituency. Fudge knows that this one boy needs to be found and found in one piece. I think that night everyone in the Ministry was looking for Harry. Ron heard from his Dad that Harry was not at Privet Drive (PoA, Ch 4). Granted Arthur has a vested interest in the boy, but word got around fast that Harry was not where he was supposed to be. The fact that Fudge was the one that found Harry is more to say that loosing Harry is something the Ministry does not want to do. >>>Also, the overheard conversation. I didn't realise it until the fourth book had all sunk in but a comment Fudge made, made me very suspicious. I don't have the third book on me at the moment so it may not be the exact quote but here is the gist of it "you know who alone and friendless is one thing but give him back his most devoted servant and I shudder to think how fast he will rise"<<< A moment Fudge showed true military intelligence...I never thought it could happen. If anything though, Fudge just knows the basic facts a That Black betrayed the Potters and was the spy. That Black escaped and was of rather sound mind in Azkaban. That Black is intelligent enough to find Voldemort. That Voldemort is alone and needs help to resurface. I see know major jump from the basic knowledge the guy in charge of the whole British wizard world should know. Now whether or not he should be telling this over drinks is another story... >>>"we had Black cornered and he slipped through our fingers again. I'll be a laughing stock, the Daily Prophet'll have a field day" His own image appears more important than people's saftey.<<< I think that quote helps show that Fudge is purely politician and cares about his reputation as much as whether he will be "voted" in again. His reasons for capturing Black were tainted by the glory of doing so. GoF >>>The first time, he is willing to brag in the top box to all who he knows about Harry's fame, regardless to how Harry feels. This is Fudge's pride coming into show. *small cut* Notice when the Malfoy's come in Fudge pays them a lot more respect than he does the Weasley's.<<< Once again, pure politician. Looks at all the famous rich people that know me and like me. Strut around a bit. >>>Also, after the fiasco with the Dark Mark, Fudge is noticeably absent from the forest scene. The high ups of the Ministry are there. Crouch snr, Malfoy (although of course in disguise) but Fudge is absent. As is Dumbledore from the whole thing...<<< Hmm, never saw that before. Could be because Fudge does not want to soil his hands or it could be that he flew out that night to have dinner with the Bulgarian Minister and did not want to campout with the commoners. I really have not idea. As for Dumbledore, he does not seem to leave Hogwarts much. It is so rare he comes to watch Quidditch school games that the older students gawk at him being there for game 2 in PS/SS, Ch 13. I doubt he would come to Quidditch World Cup. >>"its Maxime, Hagrid" as they are both half giants. Then Fudge drops the attitude when he knows that Harry is around and gets slightly embarrassed as though he wants to wrap Harry in cotton wool, much like Moody/Crouch until the third task.<<< His weak minded prejudice coming out again...possibly influence before by Malfoy. Can't say for sure really. The conversation shows that Fudge is getting stronger in his voice against Dumbledore's opinions. The last time they talked about half-giants Fudge was more meek. >>>But then; aha! Suspicous part! He shouts that Harry needs to get to the hospital wing. Then, right on cue, who should appear but Moody/Crouch who suggests the hospital wing. Interesting coincidence.<<< Could be coincidence, or could be that Fudge would never of thought Voldemort was involved and just saw that Harry was covered in blood from his leg, was very weak, and need medical attention...FAST. >>>And if you don't believe in coincidences, this is extremely dodgy. Fudge doesn't turn and try and calm the crowd. Is Fudge purposely distracting Dumbledore so Crouch can get Harry away to kill him while at the same time signalling for Crouch to take him as if Fudge himself disappeared, the crowds would know that something is amiss and he does not want to give up his position as Minister?<<< Fudge does not want there to be a scene because they are harder to control later in the press. If he is as consumed in his image as I seem to be thinking he is, then he would dearly want the crowd to not freak out and start blaming him and his administration as they did in Quidditch Cup. >>>Then its THE scene. The big one. Fudge strides up the ward and demands to see Dumbledore and is livid. What reason has he got to be livid?<<< Only because all of this would be blamed on the Ministry's poor work, as with the Quidditch Cup, and Fudge would again be painted as a bumbling idiot who should not have any power. Fudge's reputation and job is on the line. He is not exactly a rational thinker anyway. >>>Then when Harry started on the Death Eaters and mentioned Malfoy, Snape reacted. I think he had worked out that Fudge wasn't all he seemed and when Harry said Malfoy, Snape's movement was too probably stick his hand over Harry's mouth and say "shut up" but it was too late.<<< I think Snape along with Dumbledore definitely knows that Malfoy has Fudge in his back pocket nicely wedged. By Harry accusing Malfoy or being evil, Harry in effect is charging Fudge of bad judgment and consorting with the enemy. I think Snape was just trying to keep the situation from escalating that far that night, but by then, Fudge has clearly been won over by Malfoy's influence. What ever honey was poured into Fudge's ear, it has poisoned his mind and made him a puppet of Malfoy's without Fudge's knowledge. Working off Fudge's own weak, weak views on things, Malfoy can thus work the Minister to divide from Muggle-lover Dumbledore. All while making Fudge have the opinion that he was standing on his on laurels, which are not in anyway helpful to the cause of good. So, from my opinion, I say a combination of #3 and #4. Fudge is a weak whooped politician that just wants to stay in power and respect. He thinks it is his own views that are running things, but he has been captured by Malfoy, encaged by his money, and has been taught to sing the songs Malfoy whispers. Poor old guy. Melody From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 20 22:13:14 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 22:13:14 -0000 Subject: Lestrange's child? In-Reply-To: <020f01c2786d$dcb960a0$faa2cdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45609 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > First of all, it was theorized that the LeStranges could in fact > have a child. But who? Cho Chang was mentioned, but I doubt it. >What about Viktor Krum? I just find it strange that the person who > he held dearest (or whatever the wording was) in the second task >was a girl he had only met a few months before. But if he indeed > those who he had been raised by it would be different. He, being > had no close relations, and only had eighteen,would've been about > four at the time of the fall of Voldemort. The > LeStranges were sentenced to Azkaban sometime after that,(for the > torture of the Longbottoms probably). In which case he may have > been at least five or six. Old enough to remember his real family > and know that whoever raised him was, no matter how well they > cared for him, they weren't his own family. Minor problem with 'Krum is Lestrange's child' theory - in GoF Ch. 31 page 534 UK hardback, Krum is shown talking in Bulgarian with his parents. He is described as having '*inherited* his father's hooked nose' [my emphasis]. I suppose this could be misdirection, since it's Harry's pov, but I suspect more likely JKR had noticed (or wanted) the similarity between Krum and Snape's appearance, and wanted to stop any 'Krum is Snape's love-child' [::pauses briefly to boggle at this image::] theories dead by emphasising that Viktor is the spitting image of his Bulgarian father. Which also makes the 'Krum is baby Lestrange' theory a bit complicated. As does the age problem. Krum is 4 years older than Harry, so if the Lestranges were the same age as Harry's parents, they would have had to have been teenage parents (assuming that Harry's parents were about 22 when he was born); probably having a 'shotgun' marriage straight out of Hogwarts... I don't have a big problem with Krum having Hermione as the person he holds dearest. He's eighteen, about the right time to fall really *intensely* for someone and think they are the most important person in the entire world, ever. And Hermione likes *him*, not Viktor Krum the Quidditch star, and that may also be extremely important for him as well. Not that I think it'll last... Pip!Squeak From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sun Oct 20 22:23:24 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 15:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Transfiguration Brains/Hormorphus [was: Krum...an animagus??] In-Reply-To: <005301c27872$89b2da80$0d7763d1@texas.net> Message-ID: <20021020222324.19059.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45610 Amanda Geist wrote: Being transformed into an animal is passive. Someone does it to you. It's something that *happens* to you. You become an animal and do not retain your human intelligence. (I count curses and magical diseases in this class, too, because *they* act on *you.*) Me: You make a good point. Furthermore, it makes more sense for this to be so (for Animagi or people who transfigure themselves to retain their human intelligence, but not someone like Malfoy, who is transfigured by someone else). Otherwise, when Krum took on the head of a shark, he would have taken on the psyche of a shark as well, and would have endangered everyone under the water. He clearly knew that wouldn't happen (although he lacked the ability to do the full Transfiguration) or he wouldn't have risked Hermione's life by doing this. You also need to keep your human wits about you when you transfigure yourself so that you are capable of breaking the spell at will and returning to your human form. We also get the distinct impression (after we know that Scabbers is really Pettigrew, of course) that Scabbers/Peter understands human speech and everything going on around him very, very well, and that he is not hampered in the least by having a rat-sized brain. Amanda Geist wrote: On a tangent, I am presuming the Homorphus Charm would work on both types of transformation--the charm makes one's human form be revealed, and I'd think it would work on any shape-changed human, whatcha think? Me: I'm not so sure I'd go out on a limb and say that. Remus and Sirius used a spell to reveal Peter's human form, but Sirius did not attempt to use the same spell to "fix" Remus after he changed into a werewolf (he didn't have a wand at the time, but he could have asked one of the Trio for a wand). It was clearly a different spell. I suppose it may be possible that the Homorphus Charm could be used for both werewolves and someone transfigured into an animal (whether by themselves or someone else), while the spell Sirius and Remus used might not be effective on werewolves. Unfortunately, I think this speculation may be (even more of) a purely academic exercise (than usual), as there is the distinct possibility that either a) Lockhart completely made up the existence of the Homorphus Charm, or b) Lockhart destroyed the memory of the person who created the Homorphus Charm in order to take credit for it himself, and so it is now lost to the wizarding world. My guess is that Gilbert Wimple (he of the horns) and the rest of the Committee for Experimental Charms need to get cracking and figure out how to recreate it (if it ever existed). --Barb [Anyone confused about Gilbert Wimple should look at GoF, Chapter Seven, "Bagman and Crouch.] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Mon Oct 21 01:15:51 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 02:15:51 +0100 Subject: Lestrange's child?/ Weasley Children/ In-Reply-To: <020f01c2786d$dcb960a0$faa2cdd1@istu757> References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021021015301.00aa8340@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45611 At 14:21 20/10/02 -0500, Richelle Votaw wrote: >First of all, it was theorized that the LeStranges could in fact have a >child. But who? OK, I'm going to be boring here. How about Dean Thomas? The speculation is that the Lestranges are approximately the same age as Harry's parents, so it fits. Dean's parental background and magical ancestry are mysteries (Bloomsbury edition readers don't even know he's black; the colour of the Lestranges' skin has not been mentioned IIRC), so as I keep saying, something bangy about his past is a definite possibility. For him to have incarcerated parents from the "bad" side fits in with JKR's love of parallelism, as a mirror to the Longbottoms' incapacity at St. Mungo's. And it *absolutely* fits in with the choice -v- heritage theme if he does something heroic on behalf of the good guys. Oh, and should either one or both Lestranges turn out to be black, it adds another dimension to the "ethicity is unimportant; magical heritage is" argument. Have I missed anything? :-) >In TMTCNBN the robes all look alike. But do you think they're supposed to be >different for boys/girls? Boys' and girls' uniforms are different in TMTSNBN. The girls wear skirts. Even when in mufti, Hermione's costumes were always dresses or skirts. Are trousers for girls outlawed at Hogwarts, in accordance with the other old-fashioned attitudes of the WW? ;-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard who's had a very busy weekend with family celebrations (mum's birthday) and hasn't had a chance to post anything, but has tried keeping up with reading HPFGU, and is already planning a mega-post in the Class at Hogwarts thread, which will probably take a couple of days to write. :-) From obby at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Oct 20 21:34:54 2002 From: obby at blueyonder.co.uk (Richard Thorp) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 22:34:54 +0100 Subject: Animagi... Message-ID: <62171229375.20021020223454@blueyonder.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 45612 Hi all, Did check for an Animagus FAQ, but couldn't find one.. So I thought I'd put this to the list in the hope that no-one had brought it up before... Does anyone have any theories on the nature of Animagery? For instance, is it possible to choose what animal's form you will take or is it pre-determined.. It seems to me (from the Animagi in the books so far) that its pre-determined, all the characters that are animagi share significant character features with their human form.. For instance the obvious parallels with Peter Pettigrew and rats, James Potter and Stags (generally seen as great and noble animals), and various others... Im not quite sure where I was going with this.. but anyway! :) Maybe it'll spark something. -Rich msn: obbles at hotmail.com From elfundeb at comcast.net Mon Oct 21 02:21:03 2002 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 22:21:03 -0400 Subject: Hogwarts Student Population/Classist Hogwarts References: Message-ID: <001701c278a8$81388900$3a3b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 45613 Eileen said: Some people have argued for the existance of race problems in the books. I don't see it. Others have summoned the spectre of sexism. To a certain extent, I do see that, though it's not as big as some people seem to see it, imho. Others have pointed out that discrimination against non-magic people does seem to be present amongst the good guys. [snip] But all this pales in comparison to issues of class. Here I'm sure JKR believes one thing and the text sets out quite another. [snip] I think there's a lot to be pondered about JKR's presentation of Stan [Shunpike] always being in connection with working class stereotypes. Now me: Unlike Eileen, I've had more difficulty seeing the class problems in the books than the race and gender incongruities, or the inconsistencies in the paternalistic attitudes some enlightened characters seem to have toward Muggles. JKR does engage in some class stereotyping by assigning Stan Shunpike an obvious working-class accent and associating him with the dishwasher at the Leaky Cauldron. However, I don't see any evidence on which to base an assertion that he did not attend Hogwarts. The Knight Bus is a magical bus and presumably requires magic to operate. There is no evidence of other wizarding schools besides Hogwarts. Thus, I think it's reasonable to assume that he attended Hogwarts. Harry didn't recognize Stan, but his age is only Harry's estimate and he could well have left before Harry arrived. Or, like Hagrid, he could have been expelled. I'm not disturbed, either, that Stan, excited to discover his passenger was actually Harry, used his natural speech patterns. In fact, I suspect that JKR gave him that accent solely in order to highlight what she probably thought was a humorous play on the London night bus, where such accents are probably common. I don't worry about class accents at Hogwarts any more than I worry about the two unnamed Gryffindor girls in Harry's year. Textual evidence indicates that they must exist, but they will not be relevant to the storyline; to name them would be superfluous. JKR simply wasn't planning to write students in dialect, or Colin Creevey the milkman's son would likely have had such an accent. He doesn't. I ascribe much of this to JKR's compact writing style. As Pippin once said, in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40104 "Every sentence serves a purpose, whether it's to entertain, inform, persuade or confuse." Hagrid is the only other character given a dialect in the books. He, unlike Stan and Ernie, is an important -- and unique -- character and his accent is an indicator to the readers that he is lacking in the education one gets at Hogwarts. I think JKR just wasn't thinking about this issue when she drew a caricature of a bus conductor. The size of the wizarding economy does suggest that there should be more than 40 students in Harry's year at Hogwarts, but this is a fictional universe, and rather than clutter up a plot with a lot of extraneous details, JKR has chosen to focus on the Hogwarts version of Jane Austen's "two or three families in a country village." She has created a Hogwarts community that she can portray as a very small village. It's a literary device that makes the presentation of characters and story more manageable, and I have accepted it for the Potterverse without speculating on where all the other wizard children in the UK attend school. I may be accused of glossing over the evidence regarding poor Stan, but as I explain in more detail below, I don't think there is a class representation problem at Hogwarts. Eileen again, on class among purebloods: Now, for the known backgrounds of Hogwarts students. [snip Muggleborn analysis] There is no question of Classism here. Wizard-born The Malfoys - Upperclass. With a manor. A name guaranteed to summon shades of 1066 and All that. etc. etc. etc. Pansy Parkinson - Quite good enough to simper about on Draco's arm. And does anyone want to claim the Malfoys aren't class-conscious? Crabbe and Goyle - Good enough for Draco's boon companions. Some suggestion in the text that their parents are part of Lucius Malfoy's circle. The Weasleys - Poor, but obviously an old family. Both Lucius and Draco talk of them as equals that have fallen to a lower level. Arthur Weasley works at the Department of Muggle Artefacts. Although this is not the heart of the action at the Ministry, he is on close terms with all the Ministry higher-ups. And in an emergency, he's at the heart of the action. Pavarti and Padma Patil - Pansy's comment to Pavarti about Neville suggests that they knew each other before Hogwarts: more evidence of a "magic circle" in the wizarding world. Neville Longbottom - Pureblooded. Father was a popular auror. Very popular. His grandmother continually chides him for not upholding the family's honour. Cedric Diggory - Father works for the Department of Magical Creatures. Like Arthur Weasley, at the heart of the action. Harry Potter - According to Rowling, James was independantly wealthy. Barty Crouch Jr. - one of the "oldest" pureblood families Ernie Macmillan - Boasts that he can trace his family back through nine generations. (I've always thought Ernie was meant to be the wizarding equivalent of Justin. :-) [snip] So, while you can point to the presence of the Creeveys as a basis for an absence of class discrimination at Hogwarts, to do so is fundamentally misleading. Because, while the backgrounds of the muggle-born students is diverse, the background of the wizarding born students isn't. Now me: The common thread I see in the above list is that it is composed entirely of purebloods, with the exception of Harry himself and perhaps the Patils. Perhaps my difficulty in seeing the class issues stems primarily from the fact that I strongly associate the pureblood/mudblood distinction with racism in the U.S. and, unlike Eileen, I see many different classes represented within the universe of pureblood wizards: The Malfoys, with their manor, House-Elf, and last name evoking the Norman era, are obvious aristocrats, as Eileen indicates. The Crouches, who also have a House-Elf (who are stated in CoS to "come with big old manors and castles and places like that"), are likely also old aristocracy. Pansy Parkinson - I agree with Eileen, though the only evidence is that Draco thought she was good enough to ask to the Yule Ball. The Weasleys -- they are stated to be an old, prominent family. Perhaps there are aristocratic origins, but Arthur may come from a long line of younger children so that they are far removed from any aristocratic origins or manor the family might have or have had. They seem very middle class to me. (As for where they have sunk from and why, visit the Imperius!Arthur trimaran.) As for why Arthur is always in the thick of things, that's the type of person Arthur is. He is a person of action in a crisis. At the QWC, Arthur says as he, Bill, Charlie and Percy rush off toward the crowd in hoods and masks, "we're going to help the Ministry." Arthur and his sons are volunteers. As are all of the 20 or so wizards who apparated to the site of the Dark Mark. They're not an official delegation. The only high-level ministry official that appears to be there is Crouch, and he's looking for his son. It looks much more like Arthur and Amos Diggory step into an authority vacuum and take over. Amos certainly didn't go because he expected to find that a magical creature had conjured the Dark Mark. Arthur's just a conscientious mid-level bureaucrat who took action because action was needed and the proper officials from the Department of Magical Law Enforcement weren't available. And Arthur cuts short his holiday to do damage control on the reporting of the event because he feels responsible, not because he is a high-level official charged with that responsibility. Crabbe & Goyle -- the younger C&G seem not to be Draco's friends so much as his bodyguards. I have never imagined them to be part of the wizarding aristocracy, as the Malfoys clearly are. They seem perilously close to being Draco's servants. However, they are unquestionably purebloods, or Draco wouldn't have made the comments he made to Polyjuiced!Harry & Ron. The Longbottoms -- there's an essay in the Lexicon describing clues that the Longbottom family is from Lancashire. http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/longbottom.html The description in this essay of Blackpool, where Neville was nearly drowned by Great Uncle Algie, as a "spectacularly tacky seaside resort" where mill town employees frequently vacationed, suggests that the Longbottoms have a working class background. But they are most definitely purebloods. And popular, at least with the general populace. Ernie MacMillan -- there's nothing in canon to indicate his class, only his pureblood pedigree. Looking at the issue in light of the history of racial prejudice in the U.S., Ernie's protestations of purity (though uttered in the context of the basilisk threat) strike me as reflecting the attitude of lower-class whites who saw themselves as superior to the most educated and intellectual members of the black elite, all because of the color of their skin and the "purity" of their background. But the white elite looked down upon them as "white trash" just as the Malfoy family looks down on the Weasleys. The Diggorys -- I'd put them more or less in the same category as the Weasleys. Amos is simply a member of the department, not a head or assistant minister. Eileen is absolutely right that the wizarding community is very close-knit, and everyone seems to know everyone else. However, I don't necessarily see that as an indication that everyone travels in the same social class. Whether there are 280 Hogwarts students (as the internal textual evidence seems to indicate) or 1000 or whether there are other wizarding schools in Britain, the wizarding community is quite small. Indeed, we are told that it was in danger of dying out altogether but for the fact that wizards began to intermarry with Muggles. If there are relatively few wizards, and many of them are clustered in a few wizarding enclaves, it is likely that many of them know one another regardless of relative social status. The flying lesson in PS/SS does suggest that the Patils, the Parkinsons and the Malfoys were all acquainted pre-Hogwarts. I don't think it necessarily suggests they knew Neville; they had seen Neville in action at the first Potions class, where he melted his first cauldron. What also stands out is the isolation of the Weasleys from this circle; Ron and Draco had never met before taking the train to Hogwarts. So even if there was a circle of elite wizarding families pre-Hogwarts, the characters that my reading of the evidence suggests were outside that circle did not know the elite children. Eileen on the MoM composition: And now on to the Ministry of Magic, which is manned by Fudge (upper class), Crouch (upper class old family), Ludo Bagman (whose father was an old friend of August Rookwood - a posh sounding name in itself), and Arthur Weasley (old family). There's no evidence for the backgrounds of the other Ministry people, though I would be very surprised should Amos Diggory not conform to the model. Again, what we know is what's important. I'm sure it's quite possible the current Head of Magical Law Enforcement is Ernie Prang's brother. But the text shows us the Old Boys network firmly entrenched. Me: IMO, the hallmark of the Fudge regime at the MoM is Fudge's emphasis "on the so-called purity of blood." And therefore those who are in positions of greatest importance at the Ministry are undoubtedly purebloods. Since the WW is presented as a relatively small community, then the MoM is probably a relatively small community as well, and everyone working there probably knows everyone else there. It's probably like my own workplaces, past and present. I may know everyone well enough to chat in the hallways, but that doesn't put me into the same social circle. Arthur knows Fudge in a professional capacity, but there's no indication that Fudge socializes with anyone other than those at the top, such as Dumbledore and Crouch. For example, in PoA, it appears that Arthur speaks with Fudge only in the context of devising a plan to get Harry to King's Cross station safely. It's very clear from the apologetic way that Arthur explains why they will be transported in Ministry cars that Arthur isn't important enough to obtain such transportation for himself. I think we should believe Molly's statement that Arthur has deliberately been held back from the inner circle at the Ministry. So, in summary, I believe class distinctions are woven into the pureblood wizarding community, and that working-class purebloods are visible at Hogwarts. The WW *is* classist, and unpleasantly so, as exemplefied by the Malfoys and their ilk and the way others kowtow to them. Class distinctions aren't presented in a flattering light. Whether the series ultimately will take on an unintentional classist subtext will, IMO, ultimately depend on what happens to the wizards with working-class backgrounds such as the Creeveys (or Neville, if you agree with my interpretation of the textual clues). But I don't believe there's a substandard school somewhere for wizards who are destined to become dishwashers, or if there is, I believe that whether one is admitted to Hogwarts instead of that other school depends only on whether the wizard is, in Neville's words, "magic enough to come." Debbie who is most interested in learning the class background of Argus Filch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon Oct 21 02:27:45 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 21:27:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lestrange's child?/ Weasley Children/ References: <4.2.0.58.20021021015301.00aa8340@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <00d301c278a9$733a4540$899fcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45614 GulPlum wrote: > The speculation is that the Lestranges are approximately the same age as > Harry's parents, so it fits. Dean's parental background and magical > ancestry are mysteries (Bloomsbury edition readers don't even know he's But do we have any canon at all that the Lestranges are indeed Harry's parents age? If they were even a year older they could easily have a child Krum's age. We are, I'm sure, to assume they were part of Snape's gang of Slytherins as well, but surely all of them couldn't have been in the same year? Some must've been at least a year or two older. > >In TMTCNBN the robes all look alike. But do you think they're supposed to be > >different for boys/girls? > > Boys' and girls' uniforms are different in TMTSNBN. The girls wear skirts. > Even when in mufti, Hermione's costumes were always dresses or skirts. Are > trousers for girls outlawed at Hogwarts, in accordance with the other > old-fashioned attitudes of the WW? ;-) But the robes would still be the same, regardless of what went under them. Does Ginny have a hand me down robe or a second hand one? Or do we know for certain? Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Mon Oct 21 03:04:21 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 04:04:21 +0100 Subject: Accents & Class In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021021025705.00adf220@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45615 At 06:07 20/10/02 +0000, Catlady wrote about accents in the wizarding word, and in particular in reply to my previous comments: >Then *she* messed up by using the Muggle indicators of Muggle social >class to portray the wizard social class of characters like the >Malfoys, but that has to be a literary convention, like the movie of >"Spartacus" with the Brit actors and their lovely accents as Roman >aristocrats and the Yank actors as rebellious slaves. [OT comment: I'd like to point to the second word of Catlady's quoted paragraph, which has been emphasised. Confusion about my gender has occurred once before and it surprised me then as it does now. :-) I would expect that my written style is hardly feminine... Besides, the second and third words of my sig were introduced precisely to dispel any possible confusion... :-)] Nowhere did I indicate that accent is an indicator of Class in the WW. On the contrary, I deliberately distanced myself from such a conclusion, even going as far as to state outright that I view it to be born of reader prejudice. Some argue that accent is an indicator, if not of class, then of education, at least in negative terms: a "bad" accent is generally seen to be an indicator of not having attended a "good" school. Hence the conclusion that in the Potter books, anyone seen not to be speaking Standard English can be safely assumed not to have attended Hogwarts. I consider this to be a very dangerous assumption. Just as dangerous, in fact, as the real-world assumption made by employers on a daily basis, that anyone with a heavy regional or other accent is badly-educated. It is a widely-accepted prejudice in Britain, and as I understand it, in the USA as well. Some people *choose* not to divest themselves of a regional accent despite being well educated, and in some cases, strong regional accents are actively encouraged. On the subject of accents: the only non-foreigners who spring to my mind as having been clearly identified as not speaking Standard English in the books are Hagrid, Stan, and the other young men at the QWC. Over the last couple of days, I've had an ear on this issue when watching TV. Every time someone spoke with a strong accent (Irish, Welsh, Geordie, Brummie, any variety of American or other accents/dialects), I thought about how I'd transcribe it. In every case, I would have transcribed them using standard English, and someone reading the words wouldn't have a clue that they had been spoken with a strong accent. As a result, I find it very, very dangerous to assume that just because, say, the Weasley parents are written without any accent indicators, that they speak the Queen's English. Perhaps I'm influenced by TMTSNBN and Julie Walters' strong Midlands accent (which I suspect isn't discernable to most non-Brits), and so I imagine her lines in the books in that accent. The choice of Mark Williams, with his equally strong Midlands accent, to play Arthur, is no accident IMO. Ron's (i.e. Rupert's) accent isn't exactly RP either (to witness the difference, if you can, go see him in Thunderpants!). :-) Without his name as a guide, would anyone have known Seamus is Irish before the QWC scenes? There is nothing in his dialogue to indicate otherwise. And Moody - most people consider him to be Scottish, all because of a single word: "laddie". Nothing else about him dispels this notion, and "laddie" would be unlikley anywhere else in Britain, but without that word, we'd not be any the wiser. So even if accent were a strong indicator of class origins, considering we have only the written word as a guide, judging the books' dramatis personae by this standard is frankly impossible. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who would like to add that the above is *not* the promised "mega-post" (but covers part of what had been planned for it...). :-) From catlady at wicca.net Mon Oct 21 04:07:06 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 04:07:06 -0000 Subject: Animagus/Salazar/RATS live on no evil star/Social Class Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45616 Richard Thorpe wrote: << For instance, is it possible to choose what animal's form you will take or is it pre-determined... > JKR has confirmed in interviews that the Animagus doesn't get to choose his/her animal form, but instead the animal form is a reflection of his/her personality. http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/October_2000_Live_Chat_Americ a_Online.htm Q: Does the animal one turns into as an Animagi reflect your personality? JKR: Very well deduced, Narri! I personally would like to think that I would transform into an otter, which is my favorite animal. Imagine how horrible it would be if I turned out to be a cockroach! http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm Q: If you were Animagus, what kind of animal would you be? A: I'd like to be an otter -- that's my favourite animal. It would be depressing if I turned out to be a slug or something. I want to know, what happens if a person who has become an Animagus goes over the whole training again, from scratch, will heesh get another animal form? Can a person who is a werewolf become an Animagus? with an animal form other than wolf? Can a werewolf who is an Animagus with an animal form other than wolf avoid turning into a wolf monster at Full Moon by turning into hiser animal before the moment? Hickengruendler wrote: << If every wizard can turn into an animal, than what's the whole animagi thing about? What's the difference between able to transform myself into an animal, and beeing an animagus? Also, aren't all wizard who can transform themselves into animals unregistered animagi? >> Heidi replied: << JKR addressed this in Fantastic Beasts quite clearly,where she said that transfiguration into an animal means that the transfigured person has the animalian brain - in other words, when Draco was transfigured into a ferrett, he had a ferrett brain, not a wizard's one. Also in GoF, it's implied that Krum's transformation was not a wandless one, and it's clear from PoA as well that the animagus transformation is wandless. >> It occurs to me that the two spells which we know that it is illegal to use without registering are the Animagus transformation and Apparation, both wandless. Maybe the reason why registration is required is in case the person ever has to be imprisoned. By taking away his/her wand, the Authorities can neutralise all his/her wand-dependent magic, but they need to take additional measures to neutralise his/her wandless magic; therefore they need to know what wandless magic the person has. IIRC, the other wandless magic we have seen is Snape shooting ropes out of his fingers. I wonder if that spell also is required to be registered and, if so, did Snape register? If (God forbid) Severus were sent to Azkaban, could those ropes tie up each Dementor guard so that he could escape? JOdel wrote: << It is not at all difficult to assume that Salazar Slytherin, or his own ancestors, settled in England after removing from some unspecified warmer climate. >> As the name Salazar is originally Basque, meaning Old Palace, and is apparently the name of a valley in the Basque area of Spain, I think it is very likely that Salazar came to Britain from Spain. Personally and without canon, *I* think he came by way of Rome before the Roman Empire pulled out of Britain, about five hundred years before the founding of Hogwarts. Why shouldn't one of the greatest wizards of his era have had a Philosopher's Stone and lived as long as Nicolas Flamel? Grey Wolf quoted Meg: > Dudley is still technically half transfigured. He has spent four of > his formative years as a half-human and half-porcine being. > Surgically removing his tail could not possibly have reversed > Hagrid's failed transfiguration spell. Dudley has never been HALF-human and HALF-pig, because he never was HALF-Transfigured. Hagrid's FAILED Transfiguration spell, intended to turn him into a pig, only gave him a pig's tail. What percentage of a person is those last (seven? five?) vertebrae that hang around vestigally in human backsides, doing nothing but occasionally aching from rheumatism, which would presumbly be what was Transfigured into a pig's tail (which is kind of vestigal itself)? 1%? Dudley was 99% human and 1% porcine? How is TRANSFIGURING those last couple of vertebrae into a pig's tail difference from CHARMING the person to grow a pig's tail, like giving the keys wings and sharp beaks along with the ability to fly (Flitwick's ordeal, book 1) was considered a Charm? Elfun Debbie wrote: << Crabbe & Goyle -- the younger C&G seem not to be Draco's friends so much as his bodyguards. I have never imagined them to be part of the wizarding aristocracy, as the Malfoys clearly are. They seem perilously close to being Draco's servants. However, they are unquestionably purebloods, or Draco wouldn't have made the comments he made to Polyjuiced!Harry & Ron. >> I agree VERY STRONGLY INDEED! Altho' I prefer the term 'henchmen' to 'bodyguard' to describe them. And their fathers have the same relationship to Malfoy's father. I had the impression of Amos Diggory having a regional or working-class accent. << So, in summary, I believe class distinctions are woven into the pureblood wizarding community, and that working-class purebloods are visible at Hogwarts. >> I agree VERY STRONGLY! Richard GulPlum wrote: << <> Confusion about my gender has occurred once before >> I meant *JKR* had messed up. From lizgiz1980 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 21 05:00:24 2002 From: lizgiz1980 at yahoo.com (lizgiz1980) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 05:00:24 -0000 Subject: Who is Riddle to Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45617 In CoS, "while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T.M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half- forgotten." It would seem that Harry did have some kind of relationship with Tom Riddle before losing his parents. When, though, did Riddle switch to the name "Voldemort"? Wasn't it long before the Potters married? From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Mon Oct 21 05:51:54 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 22:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FILK] The Space In Here Message-ID: <20021021055154.48952.qmail@web40307.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45618 THE SPACE IN HERE to the tune of _The Space Between_ by the Dave Matthews Band Real Player video link http://www.headlog.de/dave/isdn.htm Dedicated to Gail (After the events at the Zoo, Uncle Vernon locks Harry in his cupboard under the stairs as punishment. Harry is laying on his bed, resigned to another long stay in his "bedroom".) HARRY: He shoved me in here so quickly There?s no hope in sight for me Feels like the walls are gonna squeeze me Guess I?m stuck in here a while now The space in here is really cramped, and there are spiders climbing all over my socks I feel they feed me lots of lies, but they sure don?t feed me food near enough Will I get out again? Their explanations just confuse me: "Your parents died in a crash!" But I recall my forehead burning, burning and a blinding, bright green flash They treat me like a common slug something nasty that just can?t comprehend When I?m in here I just can?t hide and Dudley finds me to inflict more pain Will I get out again? Will I get out? Weird things just happen to me,like today at the reptile building When the snake escaped from the glass-less window to the middle of the crowded room Uncle Vern was so mad I thought the Zoo was gonna be my tomb. I dreamed last night of a motorbike that was flying ?cross the dark midnight sky I think I?ve had this same dream before, But I just won?t mention it out loud anymore And relatives, thus far unknown, I dream that they come and take me away And I?ll escape this space in here and I know I?ll be safe from pain They?ll take my hand, and we?ll walk right out of here Oh, right out of here Love is what I need here The space between the stairs and floor is where you?ll find me sitting waiting for you. Please come soon! Just let me know When it?s time for me to go (Harry falls asleep, and he dreams that a very large man with a bushy beard breaks him out of his cupboard, and they escape on a flying motorbike.) ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Mon Oct 21 05:55:28 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 22:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FILK] The Space In Here Message-ID: <20021021055528.61345.qmail@web40310.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45619 THE SPACE IN HERE to the tune of _The Space Between_ by the Dave Matthews Band Real Player video link http://www.headlog.de/dave/isdn.htm Dedicated to Gail (After the events at the Zoo, Uncle Vernon locks Harry in his cupboard under the stairs as punishment. Harry is laying on his bed, resigned to another long stay in his "bedroom".) HARRY: He shoved me in here so quickly There?s no hope in sight for me Feels like the walls are gonna squeeze me Guess I?m stuck in here a while now The space in here is really cramped, and there are spiders climbing all over my socks I feel they feed me lots of lies, but they sure don?t feed me food near enough Will I get out again? Their explanations just confuse me: "Your parents died in a crash!" But I recall my forehead burning, burning and a blinding, bright green flash They treat me like a common slug something nasty that just can?t comprehend When I?m in here I just can?t hide and Dudley finds me to inflict more pain Will I get out again? Will I get out? Weird things just happen to me,like today at the reptile building When the snake escaped from the glass-less window to the middle of the crowded room Uncle Vern was so mad I thought the Zoo was gonna be my tomb. I dreamed last night of a motorbike that was flying ?cross the dark midnight sky I think I?ve had this same dream before, But I just won?t mention it out loud anymore And relatives, thus far unknown, I dream that they come and take me away And I?ll escape this space in here and I know I?ll be safe from pain They?ll take my hand, and we?ll walk right out of here Oh, right out of here Love is what I need here The space between the stairs and floor is where you?ll find me sitting waiting for you. Please come soon! Just let me know When it?s time for me to go (Harry falls asleep, and he dreams that a very large man with a bushy beard breaks him out of his cupboard, and they escape on a flying motorbike.) ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From notcarlos at hotmail.com Sun Oct 20 20:42:43 2002 From: notcarlos at hotmail.com (Jacob Lewis) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 15:42:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Order of the Phoenix: A different view References: <1035122322.5319.32324.m12@yahoogroups.com> <007301c27883$727ae220$02f99b3e@computer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45620 > Hi, I've been reading the debate over the OoP, but I think that it won't be as visible or as important as people have been implying. In the first few titles, The Philopster's stone was never really seen at all, the Chamber of Secrets is only visited in the second-to-last chapter and the Goblet of Fire makes one appearance in book 4. Ah, true, true. JKR seems to like naming her books after things that are underlying effects in the plot -- subtle things, that like you said, we may never see or only barely get a glimpse of. On the other hand, we don't how much, if anything, she's going to change direction with Voldemort having returned. Jacob, Medievalist, Writer, and 'to his lyste as newe as a yeman greene. ' From palantir at acss.net.au Mon Oct 21 05:08:03 2002 From: palantir at acss.net.au (Jonathan) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:08:03 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who is Riddle to Harry? References: Message-ID: <001001c278bf$d5a5e160$0400a8c0@qld.bigpond.net.au> No: HPFGUIDX 45621 In response to the question at the end of this message, I believe that Riddle told Harry, just after re-arranging the letters of his name to become 'I Am Lord Voldemort' that his friends had begun calling him that even while he was at school, I think the direct passage is on page 231, about halfway down the page and just after we have the indented 'I Am Lord Voldemort'; "You see?" he whispered. "It was a name I was already using at Hogwarts, to my intimate friends only, of course." to Quote the message this one is in response to, << It would seem that Harry did have some kind of relationship with Tom Riddle before losing his parents. >> When I first read it (CoS) I thought that it was someone he had known, when he was young, perhaps another boy. I'm not sure if it's possible that Harry got to know Tom Riddle after he banished his soul, or whatever he did, until he got the diary in CoS. And, if my memory serves me correctly, the entire Riddle family was destroyed, and that there was no one left behind except the Gardener, Frank. I'm now on a blank as to how Riddle could seem so familiar to Harry... -Jonathan (putting in his eight knuts, three sickles and a galleon. Also wondering the answer to the question, 'Why is Riddle so familiar to Harry?') From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 21 07:52:46 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 07:52:46 -0000 Subject: Who is Riddle to Harry? In-Reply-To: <001001c278bf$d5a5e160$0400a8c0@qld.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45622 > > When I first read it (CoS) I thought that it was someone he had known, when > he was young, perhaps another boy. I'm not sure if it's possible that Harry > got to know Tom Riddle after he banished his soul, or whatever he did, until > he got the diary in CoS. And, if my memory serves me correctly, the entire > Riddle family was destroyed, and that there was no one left behind except > the Gardener, Frank. > > I'm now on a blank as to how Riddle could seem so familiar to Harry... > > -Jonathan (putting in his eight knuts, three sickles and a galleon. Also I thought when I first read it that the implication is that the Diary is putting a spell on whoever has it. Harry thinks he ought to throw it away, but can't. Harry knows the pages are blank, but keeps looking through the Diary. He's sure he's never heard of T.M. Riddle, but the name seems familiar somehow. So the spell is 'you shouldn't throw me away, you want to read me, you want to find out more about Tom Riddle (who is someone you know, anyway, quite safe, you used to know me...) Pip > wondering the answer to the question, 'Why is Riddle so familiar to Harry?') From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Oct 21 11:29:10 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:29:10 -0000 Subject: Animagic and Transfiguration In-Reply-To: <005301c27872$89b2da80$0d7763d1@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45623 hickengruendler wrote: > > > Yes, I agree with you in general, but there is a big problem. If > > > every wizard can turn into an animal, than what's the whole animagi > > > thing about? What's the difference between able to transform myself > > > into an animal, and beeing an animagus? Also, aren't all wizard who > > > can transform themselves into animals unregistered animagi? Amanda wrote: > Being transformed into an animal is passive. Someone does it to you. It's > something that *happens* to you. You become an animal and do not retain your > human intelligence. (I count curses and magical diseases in this class, too, > because *they* act on *you.*) However, neither of these are true of Krum. He transfigured himself, AFAWK, and retained his human intelligence. In short, there is such a thing as a transfiguration *of oneself* that is not an Animagus transfiguration. So Hickengruendler's question's a good one, and leads to another: why would anyone take the trouble to become an Animagus when it's apparently easier to transfigure yourself into any animal you like? Maybe the latter is only for short-term or has other drawbacks (e.g., disappears when you sleep . . . ?). Amy Z --------------------------------------------- Ern jerked the wheel so hard that a whole farmhouse had to jump aside to avoid the bus. -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban --------------------------------------------- From palantir at acss.net.au Mon Oct 21 10:22:32 2002 From: palantir at acss.net.au (Jonathan) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:22:32 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is Riddle to Harry? References: Message-ID: <000701c278eb$c4efe920$0400a8c0@qld.bigpond.net.au> No: HPFGUIDX 45624 In response to Pip's email address my mind suddenly short-circuited through it's sleepy daze, and an idea popped into my head while reading through the reply, my original reply, and page 174 of CoS. What if Harry has never, ever, met someone with the last name of Riddle, what if it has, for a fact, never been mentioned to him by his parents? I don't think many people, besides Dumbledore, would know Voldemort's original name. What if, Harry remembered it because the memory was placed inside of him? This is, of course, just speculation, but bear with me. I'm sure that it has been discussed before on the list, the topic of Harry's parlesmouth, and the discussion on how he got it. I'm sure that someone would have brought up the possibliity that Harry sucked up the power from Voldemort after he was hit with the curse, perhaps he locked on to the first source of power that he could find and sucked from it what he needed to survive? I don't know how, or why, or if it even happened. So, what if the 'power sucking' did occur, and that, instead of just powers, he also sucked up several of the memories? We know that Harry has a somewhat 'telepathic' connection to Voldemort whenever the said Dark Lord is enraged, maybe the link brought memories from Voldemort's mind and put them in his own. This might also explain *why* the name in the diary seemed so familiar. The scene in discussion is on page 174, and is the first paragraph after the little devider (* thing). "Harry couldn't explain, even to himself, why he didn't just throw Riddle's Diary away. The fact was that even though he knew the diary was blank, he kept absent-mindedly picking it up and turning the pages, as though it was a story he wanted to finish. And while Harry was sure he had never head the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and half-forgotten. But this was absurd. He'd never had friends before Hogwarts, Dudley had made sure of that." So... my 400 or so words on the matter. Does anyone have anything else on the subject? My curiosity is aroused. :-) -Jonathan From potter76 at libero.it Mon Oct 21 13:05:43 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:05:43 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Order of the Phoenix: A different view References: Message-ID: <3DB3FBA7.000003.41593@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 45625 I think it was Chris Nuttall who wrote: >> Hi, I've been reading the debate over the OoP, but I think that it won't be as visible or as important as people have been implying. And Jacob the Medievalist ( 0____0, I'm really impressed): >Ah, true, true. JKR seems to like naming her books after things that are >underlying effects in the plot -- subtle things, that like you said, we may >never see or only barely get a glimpse of. Me: I'm rather inclined to agree with those who believe this Order to be the rebellion' group but my first impression ( which is connected with the above statements) was that the OoP was something like the order of Merlin, a kind of "prize" that will be awarded to someone during, or at the end, of the book for some 'special service' rendered to the WW. Most likely it will be Harry or the Trio or them + some other students, but it could be nice if for once it would be someone completely different to save the day, someone we don't expect, someone who has been waiting for this chance all his life ( Neville? Ron?Snape?). Actually to get such a "prize"isn't just to get a cup or medal but, if we go back to the MiddleAges where this kinds of things belong, to became a member of a special group of people, I think it mainly involved knights ( like the Templars), but no one better than Jacob can explain this point, and this groups had a common porpouse and common values that bind them together. This ties in with the 'rebel group' idea. What if this ancient order was devoted to fighting the Dark Forces, but then the times changed and there were no more dark wizards to fight and it remained only as a "honour". Now things have chanced again and it's time to get the Order up and operative again. just an idea. R. From iwant12 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 21 13:31:14 2002 From: iwant12 at hotmail.com (fruhu) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 13:31:14 -0000 Subject: Lupin's crazy parents / names of teachers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45626 Who would give their child a name like Remus if his surname is Lupin?.. Crazy! Quite some coincidence then that a person with such a name gets bitten and becomes a werewolf... Then again, sometimes coincidences like these do happen; when I was in high school, the teacher of the subject where you learn to cook (forgive me but English is my third language so I don't know what it's called ; ))... was called Mrs. Carne, and the teacher of the subject where you learn to make objects of tree was called Mr. Hammer. But anyway I wonder why JKR has made some of the character names so obvious, like Hooch, Sprout, Albus... (Albus! He didn't always have white hair!). Like their names would be their destiny or something. Aaargh! I find that annoying. Cheers! Freya From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Oct 21 13:32:25 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 13:32:25 -0000 Subject: Who is Riddle to Harry? In-Reply-To: <000701c278eb$c4efe920$0400a8c0@qld.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45627 Jonathan of the cool Tolkien username wrote: > We know that Harry has a somewhat > 'telepathic' connection to Voldemort whenever the said Dark Lord is enraged, > maybe the link brought memories from Voldemort's mind and put them in his > own. This might also explain *why* the name in the diary seemed so familiar. I've always thought it was something akin to this--that Riddle seems familiar to Harry because they're connected. I hadn't thought of it as a matter of literally having some of Voldemort's memories, though that's certainly possible, but just that they are linked in ways Harry doesn't understand and isn't even aware of. So I took the bit about it being like someone he'd known as a child as the *feel* of the memory rather than a specific clue; it's that tip-of-the-tongue "I KNOW this person, but where from?" feeling. It may well be, per Pip's suggestion, that anyone would have this feeling because Riddle enchanted the diary to be compelling in this way. However, the fact is that Harry (unlike Ginny) *does* "know" Tom Riddle. They've met, twice . . . Amy Z ---------------------------------------------------------- "What's this?" he asked Aunt Petunia. Her lips tightened as they always did if he dared to ask a question. "Your new school uniform," she said. Harry looked in the bowl again. "Oh," he said, "I didn't realize it had to be so wet." -HP and the Philosopher's Stone ---------------------------------------------------------- From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 21 13:44:39 2002 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 06:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who is Riddle to Harry? In-Reply-To: <000701c278eb$c4efe920$0400a8c0@qld.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <20021021134439.66337.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45628 --- Jonathan wrote: >> What if, Harry remembered it because the memory was placed inside of him? This is, of course, just speculation, but bear with me. I'm sure that it has been discussed before on the list, the topic of Harry's parlesmouth, and the discussion on how he got it. I'm sure that someone would have brought up the possibliity that Harry sucked up the power from Voldemort after he was hit with the curse, perhaps he locked on to the first source of power that he could find and sucked from it what he needed to survive? I don't know how, or why, or if it even happened. << This was actually my precise thought when the question was asked. Harry has a telepathic connection with Voldemort, even if it's a tenuous one only accessible when V is feeling particularly murderous. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that along with this connection would come a few vague memories about the man he's connected to. Heck, Harry got a whole *language* from V. The vague feeling that he knows the name T.M. Riddle is peanuts by comparison. ;) Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 21 13:50:06 2002 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 06:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Animagic and Transfiguration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021021135006.43549.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45629 --- Amy Z wrote: > However, neither of these are true of Krum. He transfigured himself, > AFAWK, and retained his human intelligence. In short, there is such > a thing as a transfiguration *of oneself* that is not an Animagus > transfiguration. Yes, but Krum's was not a *complete* transfiguration. His entire body didn't turn into a shark, so it stands to reason that his entire mind didn't either. However, he *did* still act considerably more feral than if he'd retained his complete human mind -- nearly injuring the hostages by trying to chew off the rope, only grasping the concept of using a tool when Harry *handed* it to him. FB makes it quite clear that wizards who either are transfigured or transfigure themselves into animals take on the animal's intelligence. Wizards who transfigured themselves into birds would forget what they were doing as soon as they took to the air. In fact, this seems like a very good reason that Animagi are superior -- how is the bird-wizard supposed to turn himself *back*? He can't hold a want OR speak an incantation, even if he could remember he was supposed to! Animagi, OTOH, are apparently able to do this wandlessly, in addition to having their human intelligence intact. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From sally at gristiegraphics.co.uk Mon Oct 21 14:05:28 2002 From: sally at gristiegraphics.co.uk (sallygrist) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:05:28 -0000 Subject: Why the Order of the Phoenix? In-Reply-To: <007301c27883$727ae220$02f99b3e@computer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45630 Hi all, I'm intrigued by your theories regarding the title of the next book, but just have one small question to ask. Ethanol wrote: > JKR said in her last interview that it was indeed Mrs. Figg who >would be the > next DADA teacher. I'm curious to know, in which interview did she reveal this juicy snippet of info? I know there's been lots of speculation aboout Mrs. Figg's role in OoP, but I didn't realise JK had actually confirmed that her appointment as DADA teacher is indeed fact. Sorry if its old news to everyone else, I obviously just missed it somewhere along the way. Sal From notcarlos at hotmail.com Mon Oct 21 14:19:58 2002 From: notcarlos at hotmail.com (Jacob C. Lewis) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 09:19:58 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Order of the Phoenix: A different view Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45631 Rita, that great dropper of hints, wrote: > Actually to get such a "prize"isn't just to get a cup or medal but, if we >go back to the MiddleAges where this kinds of things belong, to became a >member of a special group of people, I think it mainly involved knights >(like the Templars), but no one better than Jacob can explain this point, >and this groups had a common purpose and common values that bind them >together. True. I'm more reminded of the Order of the Garter, a band of high-minded knights who served the king with distinction. Perhaps what Dumbldore is doing is reviving all those whom he holds as loyal to himself -- a sort of counter-group to the Death Eaters -- and in turn reviving the distinction. Perhaps, then, the OoP has something to do with people who've been touched / healed by the Phoenix. >This ties in with the 'rebel group' idea. What if this ancient order was >devoted to fighting the Dark Forces, but then the times changed and there >were no more dark wizards to fight and it remained only as a "honour". Now >things have chanced again and it's time to get the Order up and operative >again. How ancient does it have to be, and does it have to be 'only an honour'? There's slight hints throughout the book (Fudge's Mysterious Movements in PoA, for one) that someone or something is moving behind the scenes, directing the WW when the Ministry slips a cog (or the MoM could just be incredibly good at their job, you never know). >just an idea. In the words of one of my former Philosophy Profs, "Yes! Yes it is!" He was a bit of a nutter, though. Jacob Lewis ---------------------------------------------------- One can never have enough socks [...]. Another Christmas has come and gone and I didn't get a single pair. People will insist on giving me books. -- Albus Dumbledore, "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections-- switch toMSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Mon Oct 21 15:47:32 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:47:32 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Order of the Phoenix: A different view References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45632 Jacob Writes: "There's slight hints throughout the book (Fudge's Mysterious Movements in > PoA, for one) that someone or something is moving behind the scenes, > directing the WW when the Ministry slips a cog (or the MoM could just be > incredibly good at their job, you never know)." I fear that we are in danger of re-inventing the illumiti or some other secret organisation that looks after the interests of the WW. There could be an apolicical organisation that keeps an international watch on the WW and keeps it secret from the Muggles. On a related note, Have any of you read 'The Mastership Game', by Scott McBain? In it, there is an organisation that protects the world be offering advice to world leaders, while maintaining a veneer of total secrecty to prevent its values from being cruppted. Could the OoP be like that? Perhaps the plot of HPatOoP would be about Harry having to find this group and get their assistence in the coming war. Chris From obby at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Oct 21 16:41:43 2002 From: obby at blueyonder.co.uk (Richard Thorp) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 17:41:43 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Order of the Phoenix: A different view In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <79240039062.20021021174143@blueyonder.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 45633 Monday, October 21, 2002, 4:47:32 PM, Christopher wrote: CN> On a related note, Have any of you read 'The Mastership Game', by Scott CN> McBain? In it, there is an organisation that protects the world be offering CN> advice to world leaders, while maintaining a veneer of total secrecty to CN> prevent its values from being cruppted. Could the OoP be like that? Yea! Thought no-one else in the world had read that book, hehe :) Although I stick by the idea that the OoP will be a rebellion group, rather than an already set up thing... -Rich msn: obbles at hotmail.com From feliciarickmann at dsl.pipex.com Mon Oct 21 17:30:11 2002 From: feliciarickmann at dsl.pipex.com (Felicia Rickmann) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 17:30:11 -0000 Subject: Rumours denied - the next books Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45634 "The titles Harry Potter and the Alchemist's Cell, Harry Potter and the Chariots of Light and Harry Potter and the Pyramids of Furmat were registered with the UK Patent Office's Trademark Database in April 2000. " It would be interesting to incorporate the above quote with current titles. Warner's denials aside, of course. Felicia From heidit at netbox.com Mon Oct 21 17:48:45 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 13:48:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rumours denied - the next books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <023601c2792a$36545900$0201a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 45635 > -----Original Message----- > From: Felicia Rickmann [mailto:feliciarickmann at dsl.pipex.com] > Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 1:30 PM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rumours denied - the next books > > > Real-To: "Felicia Rickmann" > > "The titles Harry Potter and the Alchemist's Cell, Harry Potter and > the Chariots of Light and Harry Potter and the Pyramids of Furmat > were registered with the UK Patent Office's Trademark Database in > April 2000. " > > It would be interesting to incorporate the above quote with current > titles. Warner's denials aside, of course. : puts on trademark attorney hat : takes hat off, replaces same with Leaky Cauldron Editor Hat These applications were filed in April of 2000, before the title for Goblet of Fire was even finalized. They vested to registration in 2001. We've known about this for coming on three years, and I can't see how any comments from WB or anyone else at this point have any relevance to anything. I don't know why this is news, except that perhaps some idiot at The Scotsman finally discovered the trademark search capabilities of the UK Patent & Trademark Office. We at The Leaky Cauldron reported on this back in August, 2001. Furthermore, the BBC has debunked the musings of the various British papers (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2345429.stm) and quotes Very Nice Guy Neil Blair, in JKR's agent's office, as saying "There is absolutely no truth in the story that either there is going to be an eighth book in the series or that these titles are genuine title for the sixth and seventh books." Luckily, the brilliant BBC also noted that fan sites (including TLC) have known about this for years. From eloiseherisson at aol.com Mon Oct 21 17:53:32 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 13:53:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Accents & Class Message-ID: <10.271ab64b.2ae5991c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45636 Richard: > > > <>Some argue that accent is an indicator, if not of class, then of > education, > <> > > On the subject of accents: the only non-foreigners who spring to my mind as > > having been clearly identified as not speaking Standard English in the > books are Hagrid, Stan, and the other young men at the QWC. > > Over the last couple of days, I've had an ear on this issue when watching > TV. Every time someone spoke with a strong accent (Irish, Welsh, Geordie, > Brummie, any variety of American or other accents/dialects), I thought > about how I'd transcribe it. In every case, I would have transcribed them > using standard English, and someone reading the words wouldn't have a clue > that they had been spoken with a strong accent. > > As a result, I find it very, very dangerous to assume that just because, > say, the Weasley parents are written without any accent indicators, that > they speak the Queen's English. Perhaps I'm influenced by TMTSNBN and Julie > > Walters' strong Midlands accent (which I suspect isn't discernable to most > non-Brits), and so I imagine her lines in the books in that accent. The > choice of Mark Williams, with his equally strong Midlands accent, to play > Arthur, is no accident IMO. Ron's (i.e. Rupert's) accent isn't exactly RP > either (to witness the difference, if you can, go see him in > Thunderpants!). :-) I just want to comment on some of the terminology here, as I think it gets a bit confusing and that the issues of accent and non-standard speech might be getting confused in this thread, particularly for the non-Brits amongst us. There does seem to be a tendency to use the term 'Standard English' to refer to standard pronunciation. I think that more correctly, 'Standard English' refers to the form of the language, variations of dialect, etc, whereas Standard or Received Pronunciation refers to the accent employed. [The 'King's (or Queen's) English seems also to be a problematic phrase, used variously to mean Standard English, or the type of English associated with the highest stratum of society.] Thus one can speak Standard English (SE) with Received Pronunciation (RP), as I do more or less, by current standards, or Standard English with a regional accent, as my mother did. Or, one can speak non-standard English (normally the result of regional variation) thus normally with a regional accent. Though as I can't really do accents, if I read HP out loud my rendition of Hagrid may turn out as an example of non-standard English in RP. Real dialects (as in forms of English with a high proportion of regionally specific words and grammatical forms) are dying out in Britain, as a result both of education and mass exposure to the media, although there are still different forms of regional speech. But it has to be said that amongst the educated, what is more commonly found is a variation of pronunciation (accent) than any major difference in the *form* of the language. The exception to this, is, of course where a conscious effort has been made to retain one's native mode of speech. But, to achieve academic success, you have to be able to use Standard English. If anyone wrote an essay using Hagrid's speech codes, it wouldn't get very good marks. At least it wouldn't if I marked it. [This is not the place to go into the woeful standards of literacy of many of those who manage to get into British higher education these days.] Ironically, as dialects are dying out, so also are 'posh' accents. Even the Queen's English (I mean Queen Elizabeth's own accent) has changed. Her speech, though still upper-class, is a lot less upper-class than it used to be. Now, the media these days are full of people using non-RP. In fact it seems almost de rigeur these days to have a Scottish or North Eastern accent if to get a job as a news reader or continuity announcer in radio or on television these days (a far cry from the days when the BBC seemed to manage to find even working class interviewees with impeccably correct English and pseudo-upper class accents!). But what we are talking about is *accent*. You would transcribe it as standard English, because that is what it is. In the media, it is essential that we *understand* what someone is saying, so non-standard English and the most extreme of accents are likely to be edited out. I well remember though, visiting Edinburgh many years ago (and I spent part of my childhood in Renfrewshire, so it wasn't as though I was unfamiliar with Scottish accents) and having tremendous difficulty in understanding what some folks said. The accent and form of some people's English was so different that I don't think you would have transcibed it without giving, as in Hagrid's speech, some indication of it's regional variation: that would really have been to *translate* some of it. > Without his name as a guide, would anyone have known Seamus is Irish before > the QWC scenes? There is nothing in his dialogue to indicate otherwise. No, there is nothing that I recall. Which is very odd, if he does have an accent such as Fry or the CWMNBN give him. There are some small but very characteristic usages which characterise Irish English. I'm racking my brain for one, but can't think of one off the top of my head. The vicar of the parish in which I live is from Belfast. He's lived in England for donkey's years, but still has a *very* strong accent, but even leaving that aside, I have noted in the past that if you wrote down his speech without any indicator of accent, you would still be able to tell from a few characteristic usages - "so he did" at the end of a statement is the sort of thing, that he was Irish. And > Moody - most people consider him to be Scottish, all because of a single > word: "laddie". Nothing else about him dispels this notion, and "laddie" > would be unlikley anywhere else in Britain, but without that word, we'd not > > be any the wiser. Really? I'd never though of him as Scottish. Using "laddie" in that patronising way I don't think is exclusively Scottish. > > So even if accent were a strong indicator of class origins, considering we > have only the written word as a guide, judging the books' dramatis personae > > by this standard is frankly impossible. This is true of accent, but not necessarily of non-standard English. I think we can be pretty certain that Stan and Ernie don't come from upper class backgrounds! And it's unlikely that they're highly educated. (Incidentally, I note that Stan is generally interpreted as a Cockney. Ernie's accent seems to be different: his use of "summat" indicates he's a northerner.) I think JKR is in a rather difficult situation. How *is* she to indicate in a natural sort of way that regional and class variation exist within the WW? She is confined to what she can communicate on paper and it is very easy for the rendition of regional accents to appear patronising. As it is, she seems to have confined it to Hagrid, whom she treats with affection, to Stan and Ernie who are slightly comic and the young men at the QWC, who definitely are. The House Elves' manner of speech is something else again. Eloise The following may be of interest: (snipped from: http://www.ic.arizona.edu/~1sp/BritishEnglish.html) >>In Britain, "people are often able to make instant and unconscious judgements about a stranger?s class affiliation on the basis of his or her accent." Both the words and pronunciation of many individuals reflect that person?s social position. It is agreed that in England, the "phonetic factors assume a predominating role which they do not generally have in North America" Geographical variation is represented along the broad base of the pyramid while the vertical dimension exhibits social variation. It can be seen that working class accents display a good deal of regional variety, but as the pyramid narrows to its apex, up the social scale, it?s also apparent that upper class accents exhibit no regional variation. Thus by definition, any regional accent would not be considered upper-class and the more localizable the accent, the more it will described as a "broad" accent. purports that broad accents reflect: regionally, the highest degree of local distinctiveness socially, the lowest social class linguistically, the maximal degree of difference from RP. A 1972 survey carried out by National Opinion Polls in England, provides an example of how significantly speech differences are associated with social class differences. The following question was asked: "Which of the these [eleven specified factors] would you say are most important in being able to tell which class a person is?" Respondents were randomly chosen from the British public. The factor that scored the highest was "the way they speak" followed by "where they live." At the bottom of the list was "the amount of money they have." All this is evidence that then, and to some degree even now, "speech is regarded as more indicative of social class than occupation, education and income." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Mon Oct 21 17:56:01 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 17:56:01 -0000 Subject: The Riddle/Harry relationship ( wasRe: Who is Riddle to Harry?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45637 Lizgiz1980 kindly started this topic: > In CoS, "while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T.M. Riddle > before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though > Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half- > forgotten." > > It would seem that Harry did have some kind of relationship with Tom > Riddle before losing his parents. When, though, did Riddle switch to > the name "Voldemort"? Wasn't it long before the Potters married? Fyre Wood (ME) Replies: I highly doubt it's meant to be interpreted in that fashion. As I was re-reading that chapter (just before I logged on, in fact!), that same thought struck me--but then I realized what I am going to post. Harry had this *feeling* that he had either heard the name Riddle somewhere or that he had known him from somewhere. It's sort of like he's thinking: "Dude, I think I've heard that name somewhere in my past... now, who is this guy and why do I think I know him." As it turned out, Riddle is actually the younger/sexier/suave form of everybody's favorite bad guy, Voldemort. I still think that it's odd how both look alike and share some of the same mannerisms, such as quick "no" replies, the black hair, etc. I know there's a deeper meaning to *why* Voldy wanted Harry to be killed-- but alas, book five isn't here and we'll have to wait, and wait and wait just to see if we'll find out. --Fyre Wood, who is in love with Tom Riddle, but knows after the Movie-that-must-not-be-named comes out, that everyone is going to fall in love with him too. Bugger! From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Mon Oct 21 18:02:36 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:02:36 -0000 Subject: WB trademarks titles?! (was Re: Rumours denied - the next books) In-Reply-To: <023601c2792a$36545900$0201a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45638 Felicia Rickmann posted: > > "The titles Harry Potter and the Alchemist's Cell, Harry Potter and > > the Chariots of Light and Harry Potter and the Pyramids of Furmat > > were registered with the UK Patent Office's Trademark Database in > > April 2000. " > > > > It would be interesting to incorporate the above quote with current > > titles. Warner's denials aside, of course. Fyre Wood (ME) replies: I heard on the radio that all three trademarks have now been picked up by Warner Bros. Perhaps the Alchemist's Cell will have Harry meeting Nicolas Flamel, and maybe learning a secret of something. For some reason, Chariots of Light sounds like an alternative title for the GOF book-- and Pyramids of Furmat sounds like... well.. it sounds lame. I still believe that book 5 will be the final book. IT will be relatively long, but clear up everything that the supposed last three would do. THink about it--JKR is expecting a child and at the rate she's been crankin' out this next book, we'll all be old and gray when the "seventh" book comes out. =( --Fyre Wood, who chucks her GOF book at the cat. From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon Oct 21 18:25:52 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:25:52 -0000 Subject: Rumours denied - the next books In-Reply-To: <023601c2792a$36545900$0201a8c0@Frodo> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45639 : Heidi wrote in response to Felicia about the recent interest in the registered "Harry Potter and the.." :- These applications were filed in April of 2000, before the title for Goblet of Fire was even finalized. They vested to registration in 2001. We've known about this for coming on three years, and I can't see how any comments from WB or anyone else at this point have any relevance to anything. I don't know why this is news, except that perhaps some idiot at The Scotsman finally discovered the trademark search capabilities of the UK Patent & Trademark Office. We at The Leaky Cauldron reported on this back in August, 2001. > > Furthermore, the BBC has debunked the musings of the various British > papers (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2345429.stm) and quotes > Very Nice Guy Neil Blair, in JKR's agent's office, as saying "There is absolutely no truth in the story that either there is going to be an eighth book in the series or that these titles are genuine title for the sixth and seventh books." JKR also gave a personalised interview of BBC's "Newsround" tonight where she again stated that the titles were not those of 6th and 7th books: nobody, not even her family no the titles of the next books. Ali Who is still convinced that the release date for OoP will first be announced on Newsround. > From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Oct 21 18:33:25 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:33:25 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts students and dialect Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45640 Working class jobs in the wizarding world could be associated with non-standard dialect or pronounciation without imagining a separate school for the working classes. Any way you slice it, half of all the students leaving Hogwarts leave in the bottom half of their class. Consider a Muggleborn student from a working class background. Call him Stan. He qualifies for Hogwarts, but only just, and he leaves after his fifth year with an O.W.L. or two. Without wealth, family connections or impressive academic credentials, he's not up for the plummy jobs, but he manages a living as a bus conductor. He pals around with others of his sort, and their dialect becomes a badge of identity. They're capable of a more cultivated speech, but using it with each other would be putting on airs. Stan knows that in his class-bound society, nobody's paying him to think...or wants to. So if famous Harry Potter wants to pretend to be Neville Longbottom, Stan's not going to argue about it...though he might pass the word on quietly. Then Stan has a little fun pretending to be oh so surprised. "I knew it!" indeed. Plus, JKR creates some symmetry with clueless but cultivated Draco Malfoy, who didn't recognize famous Harry Potter either. Or perhaps Stan and Ern are *way* smarter than they look and are actually some of Dumbledore's infamous spies. MAGIC BUSDRIVER? :-) TAGSWATCH, are you listening? Colin and Dennis Creevy, on the other hand, have no working class accent. Wouldn't JKR be perpetuating a stereotype if they did? As for Hagrid, Hagrid's dad could have clung to his regional accent despite his Hogwarts education (Never be ashamed of who yeh are) and encouraged his son to do the same. Pippin From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 21 19:07:17 2002 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 12:07:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hogwarts students and dialect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021021190717.20217.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45641 --- Pippin wrote: > Colin and Dennis Creevy, on the other hand, have no working > class accent. Wouldn't JKR be perpetuating a stereotype if they > did? As for Hagrid, Hagrid's dad could have clung to his > regional accent despite his Hogwarts education (Never be > ashamed of who yeh are) and encouraged his son to do the > same. You know, something has occurred to me. Everyone is saying that Hagrid's accent is indicative of his low education, because after all, he never even finished Hogwarts and certainly all students who went to the same school for seven years would have similar accents by the end of it. Well...by *that* logic, shouldn't Hagrid's accent be one of the *most* refined of the "Hogwarts" accents, second only to Dumbledore and some of the older professors? After all, even if he didn't finish his Hogwarts education, Hagrid has LIVED on Hogwarts grounds, eaten meals in the Great Hall, and socialized with professors and students alike for over fifty years, not the mere seven of students. Personally, I've always pictured Hogwarts peppered with a wide variety of accents, from Irish and Scottish to Liverpudlian and Cockney. As a writer, I rarely given "speech tags" to my characters, phonetically sounding out what the accent should sound like. Most of the variations are too small to really do that with anyway, and the end result would be extremely difficult to read! I'll generally just assume an accent commensurate with the background I've given the character -- whether Southern belle or upper-crust British -- and only point something out specifically if the accent is either particularly strong or if the person uses an accent unusual to their background. For example, I have a character who's from the southern US, but thinks accents make you sound stupid, so she is very careful about toning down her accent as much as possible. When I'm writing her, I'll mention that, and I generally play up her brother's accent as much thicker just for contrast. Ahem. Sorry for the digression. What I'm basically trying to say is that just because JKR rarely writes out an accent doesn't mean we should assume it isn't there. The characters with written-out accents have *stronger* ones, certainly, and we should examine exactly why JKR felt that was necessary, but to assign the rest of the wizarding world a single accent just because no others are written out seems silly to me. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From hpfgumoderator at hotmail.com Mon Oct 21 19:10:40 2002 From: hpfgumoderator at hotmail.com (hpfgumoderator) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 19:10:40 -0000 Subject: Nimbus - 2003: A Harry Potter Symposium Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45642 HPforGrownups is proud to present: Nimbus - 2003: An International Harry Potter Symposium Where: Orlando, Florida, at the Walt Disney World Swan and Dolphin Hotel When: July 17-20, 2003 A talented team of fans ranging in age, interest, and professions, many of whom are members of HPfGU, are hard at work planning this amazing opportunity. And YOU could be there to experience this extraordinary piece of fandom history in the making! We expect Nimbus to be a recurring event (in different locales) where fans can gather and discuss the books with each other, and with a spectrum of professionals in a wide variety of disciplines, as well as have some fun together along the lighter side of the Potterverse. Don't miss the very first symposium wholly focused on the world of Harry Potter! For complete, up-to-date details about the agenda, pricing, volunteering, and other information, please go to: http://www.hp2003.org This symposium is an unofficial event, and is not endorsed by Warner Bros., the Harry Potter book publishers or J.K. Rowling and her representatives. From j.wolf at sympatico.ca Mon Oct 21 19:16:58 2002 From: j.wolf at sympatico.ca (~J. Wolf~) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:16:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nimbus - 2003: A Harry Potter Symposium References: Message-ID: <3DB4526E.188A8F40@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 45643 This is in Ottawa in 2004. I CAN'T WAIT!!!! hpfgumoderator wrote: > HPforGrownups is proud to present: Nimbus - 2003: An International > Harry Potter Symposium > > Where: Orlando, Florida, at the Walt Disney World Swan and Dolphin > Hotel > > When: July 17-20, 2003 > > A talented team of fans ranging in age, interest, and professions, > many of whom are members of HPfGU, are hard at work planning this > amazing > opportunity. And YOU could be there to experience this extraordinary > piece of fandom history in the making! > > We expect Nimbus to be a recurring event (in different locales) where > fans can gather and discuss the books with each other, > and with a spectrum of professionals in a wide variety of disciplines, > > as well as have some fun together along the lighter side > of the Potterverse. Don't miss the very first symposium wholly focused > > on the world of Harry Potter! > > For complete, up-to-date details about the agenda, pricing, > volunteering, and other information, please go to: > > http://www.hp2003.org > > This symposium is an unofficial event, and is not endorsed by Warner > Bros., the Harry Potter book publishers or J.K. Rowling and her > representatives. > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [Image] [Image] > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary > material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to > HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- > mods at hpfgu.org.uk > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. -- Be careful of your thoughts, they could become words at any moment. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From crussell at arkansas.net Mon Oct 21 19:27:19 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 19:27:19 -0000 Subject: Any skeletons in the Potter family closet? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45644 An idea I have been toying with for some time, that would tie in with my theory that the central theme of the series is thinking for yourself-making the right choices is this: what if the Potter family has not always been good? What effect could this kind of information have on Harry? However, the brick wall I always hit when I give this idea any thought is this: wouldn't everybody in the WW know if some of the Potters had been on the wrong side? Surely Malfoy would use this information to torment Harry-if he indeed knew it-and if it were public knowledge, how could he help but know it? Are there any ideas out there concerning this theory of a not-so cleancut Potter family tree? Please let me here them. bugaloo37 From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Mon Oct 21 19:54:59 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 12:54:59 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] WB trademarks titles?! (was Re: Rumours denied - the next books) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16967613200.20021021125459@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45645 Monday, October 21, 2002, 11:02:36 AM, Fyre Wood wrote: FW> Perhaps the Alchemist's Cell will have Harry meeting Nicolas Flamel, FW> and maybe learning a secret of something. For some reason, Chariots FW> of Light sounds like an alternative title for the GOF book-- and FW> Pyramids of Furmat sounds like... well.. it sounds lame. Here are the ideas I had: _Alchemist's Cell_: In which Dumbledore is sacked and thrown into Azkaban. Headmaster Snape later expells Harry for a year (hence the need for an eighth book), and he is imprisoned as well. He and Dumbledore find the former cell of a famous alchmist which has strange magical properties that may or may not aid their bust-out. _Pyramids of Furmat_: Harry travels with the Weasleys to Egypt to visit Bill, and he discovers a magical artifact in "the pyramid that mum wouldn't let Ginny go into" that is pivotal to the rest of the story. _Chariots of Light_: Harry, Ron, and Hermione are riding them when they run down Voldy and the last of the DE's. FW> I still believe that book 5 will be the final book. IT will be FW> relatively long, but clear up everything that the supposed last three FW> would do. THink about it--JKR is expecting a child and at the rate FW> she's been crankin' out this next book, we'll all be old and gray FW> when the "seventh" book comes out. =( I hope not, but I'm a little worried about their perhaps bringing in a "Ruth Plumly Thompson" to write or at least cowrite the last two. (Feel free to stone me for even suggesting it.) -- Dave From stevebinch at hotmail.com Mon Oct 21 17:31:07 2002 From: stevebinch at hotmail.com (Steve Binch) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:31:07 -0600 Subject: Karkaroff...an animagus?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45646 <<< In Book 4, as Krum and Harry are conversing by the edge of the forest and see Crazed!Crouch, there is a brief mention of a silvery coloured bird looking though Hagrid's window. Karkaroff is always referred to as "wearing silver-fur trimmed coat"...could it be that Karkaroff is an animagus? >>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> Here's what I got to say: Even though I don't believe Karkaroff is the silvery bird, I do think it's possible that there are going to be more animagi. If we already know of 5 unregistered animagi, it must be rather common for people to become animagi without registering. True that I think that JKR is too imaginative to keep pulling the animagi card on us, I think that she has successfully established that anyone could be one. I think this will be important in future books because we will be suspicious of every animal that we come across and will add to the mystery. However, if Karkaroff was an animagi, I think a silvery bird would be appropriate for his character. <<<>>> Free Bertie Botts Beans? I'll take you up on that. -Steve B. From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Mon Oct 21 18:30:50 2002 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (kaarlo moran) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:30:50 -0400 Subject: Book 5 = last book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45647 On 10/21/02 2:02 PM, "Fyre Wood" wrote: > I still believe that book 5 will be the final book. IT will be > relatively long, but clear up everything that the supposed last three > would do. THink about it--JKR is expecting a child and at the rate > she's been crankin' out this next book, we'll all be old and gray > when the "seventh" book comes out. =( > > --Fyre Wood, who chucks her GOF book at the cat. Do you really believe that after book #5, there won't be any more books? If this was true, then the last chapter (where JKR wrote already and whose last word 'scar') would have to appear as well. That's a lot of compression of the last 3 three years at Hogwarts into one book. -K.Moran - Who's just realized that book #5 will come out at the same time we can expect the DVD of Chamber of Secrets. :-P From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon Oct 21 19:56:33 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 19:56:33 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts students and dialect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45648 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > > Working class jobs in the wizarding world could be associated > with non-standard dialect or pronounciation without imagining a > separate school for the working classes. > > Any way you slice it, half of all the students leaving Hogwarts > leave in the bottom half of their class. Consider a Muggleborn > student from a working class background. Call him Stan. He > qualifies for Hogwarts, but only just, and he leaves after his fifth year with an O.W.L. or two. Without wealth, family connections or impressive academic credentials, he's not up for the plummy > jobs, but he manages a living as a bus conductor. He pals > around with others of his sort, and their dialect becomes a > badge of identity. They're capable of a more cultivated speech, > but using it with each other would be putting on airs. > > Stan knows that in his class-bound society, nobody's paying > him to think...or wants to. So if famous Harry Potter wants to > pretend to be Neville Longbottom, Stan's not going to argue > about it...though he might pass the word on quietly. Then Stan > has a little fun pretending to be oh so surprised. "I knew it!" > indeed. > Whilst I do agree with you in principle, I don't really see how seperate accents and dialects would survive the workings of the WW. The WW seems to me to be too small and too segrated from the Muggle World to retain its many accents and dialects. I like you tend to believe that all wizarding children are educated at Hogwarts. But I am inclined to think that 5 or 7 years would be sufficient to modify most children's accents to the "standard" accent, when the "standard" accent is what they would hear day in and day out. This is particurly so as their parents and grandparents would also have been subjected to the same language. I also feel that Muggle-borns who could legitimately arrive at Hogwarts with different accents would swiftly try and modify their accents in a bid to fit in. The only logical way I can satisfy myself over the dialect issue, is to think that JKR has used them for literary/comical purposes only. Otherwise, they confuse *my* reading of the text. Ali From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon Oct 21 20:12:15 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:12:15 -0000 Subject: Who are the House Ghosts? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45649 A lengthy search of the archives has revealed ? well a lot of interesting discussion about a lot of interesting things, but not the question about ghosts and more particularly the Bloody Baron that I was looking for! Whilst there is no canonical evidence for this, I think of the Grey Lady as the same Grey Lady who haunts York Minster: Lady Jane Grey. Queen of England for 9 days in Tudor times before she was beheaded for treason. If my history serves me correctly, she was said to be academically gifted. I realise that there are differing interpretations of the Grey Lady, and I even found some in post 30982. But my interpretation seems to fit with the CTWMNBN, where the Tudor clothed Grey Lady is afforded a higher profile than in our beloved books. The Fat Friar reminds me of Friar Tuck, although this is strictly my interpretation, and there might be differing views around. I imagine Nearless Headless Nick to be a totally JKR creation with a significance yet to be revealed, but who then is the Bloody Baron? Is he based on someone or will he too have a significance that we must still wait for. Ali Who thinks that Ginny could be called "Iphigenia", if her parents were really cruel and truly wanted to list their family in alphabetical order. From gandharvika at hotmail.com Mon Oct 21 20:12:39 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:12:39 +0000 Subject: [HP4Grownups](FILK) Ron's Sister Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45650 Ron's Sister (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Day Tripper_ by the Beatles) Listen to the Midi here: http://home.wnm.net/~dpannell/beatles/#D (The Fab Four, Harry on lead guitar, Ron playing bass, Hermione with the tambourine and Neville on drums) Harry: Chamber of Secrets - how was the thing opened up? Chamber of Secrets - how was the thing opened up, now? It was Ron's sister - controlled by Riddle, yeah It took us so long to find out, but we found out Was a basilisk - who was it who called it forth? Was a basilisk - who was it who called it forth, now? It was Ron's sister - but she was innocent She was doing wrong. When she found out, she wanted out Student was taken - into the Chamber itself Student was taken - into the Chamber itself, now It was Ron's sister - Ginny Weasley, yeah We have to go down and bring her out, yeah bring her out Ron's sister Ron's sister, yeah -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 21 20:34:42 2002 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 13:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new female DADA teacher In-Reply-To: <1035231176.16582.40778.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021021203442.14042.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45651 Sal wrote: I'm intrigued by your theories regarding the title of the next book, but just have one small question to ask. Ethanol wrote: > JKR said in her last interview that it was indeed Mrs. Figg who >would be the > next DADA teacher. I'm curious to know, in which interview did she reveal this juicy snippet of info? I know there's been lots of speculation aboout Mrs. Figg's role in OoP, but I didn't realise JK had actually confirmed that her appointment as DADA teacher is indeed fact. Sorry if its old news to everyone else, I obviously just missed it somewhere along the way. Me: In past interviews, JKR has revealed that there will be a female DADA teacher in the next books, and also that Mrs Figg is the same Arabella Figg mentioned at the end of GoF, and will show up in the next books too. Only in the last interview, she said that the female DADA teacher will actually be in book 5, The Order of the Phoenix. But she has never said that the female teacher was going to be Mrs. Figg. Maria __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From sjk36 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 21 20:35:43 2002 From: sjk36 at hotmail.com (sjk36) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:35:43 -0000 Subject: Nimbus - 2003: A Harry Potter Symposium In-Reply-To: <3DB4526E.188A8F40@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45652 > > HPforGrownups is proud to present: Nimbus - 2003: An International Harry Potter Symposium My head may explode with sheer excitement over this. Sarah G From speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 21 20:43:30 2002 From: speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com (r f) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:43:30 +0000 Subject: TBAY: WildCard!Lucius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45653 Out on the waters of Theory Bay, the First Memory Friend continues on near the Safe house, oblivious to the Hurricane watch flags snapping in the breeze. The ship's fearless Captain has survived many hurricanes and knows that they are mostly hype. She stretches out on the aft deck, a pile of binders and books stretched out in front of her. Hearing her name in the breeze, she perks up her ears. It appears that Grey Wolf and Melody are talking about her. She quicky conjures a long range microphone to hear the conversation. It appears that Grey Wolf is discussing something Meg sent him. Meg hears him say: "Anyway, pressing on, I have also examined this other tidbit:" continues Grey Wolf while turning a wheel and throwing a switch. >Lucius is making great strides through the WW as seen in CoS, PoA and >the beginning of GoF. I maintain that he's not in the least bit >interested in having Lord Voldemort back in the picture and will >undermine him now that he is. "This was actually explained in detail in post #45245, the Lucius Factor. I expect that Frankie will want to pick this up personally, so she might just come around to pick both of the acronyms, or maybe the Captain will feel it's her duty. Anyway, before I ramble off, here you go" This time, Melody is almost sure that Grey Wolf has produced the paper out of thin air. At any rate, she accepts the paper and reads: "I LUV' SAILING OPS: Intelligent Lucius Undermines Voldemort: Secret Agenda Improves Lucius' Intense & Neverending Grasp Of Power & Superiority" "There you go", says Wolf, "And now, I have to get going. Thanks for taking care of the safe house in my abscense, Melody. And tell Pip, if you see her,that I droped by. See you" As the wolf runs off, back to the north, Meg watches as Melody crunches this second piece of paper and tosses it out the window and into the bay. Convinced that Grey Wolf would have stopped by if it was important, Meg goes back to studying and sunning herself. As she turns a page of transcript, she glances at her fingernails and frowns. "Meg! Hey MEG!" a voice shouts. Meg, captain of the FIRST MEMORY FRIEND, casts a scouring charm and looks up from her sparkling clean fingernails. In the sparkling waters of Theory Bay, an arm waves frantically above the surface, just off the port bow. "Hey captain!! I found something, I found it, and it's totally under the radar, but I FOUND it! Chuck me a rope or something!!" shouts Frankie, treading water. Meg tosses a coil of rope over the side and shakes her head. God only knew what wild tangent her new crewmember would try to haul aboard the Cal 20. "This isn't strong enough," says Frankie reproachfully. "What exactly have you found?" Meg asks with a sense of foreboding. "Lucius Malfoy," "What, underwater?" "More or less, yeah. Help me get the canon aboard and I'll explain!" A short time later the two women stand on the deck looking over the latest style of covert operations high-caliber artillery. Wrapped in a fluffy white towel embroidered with a Hogwarts crest and hopping from foot to foot, Frankie launches into her explanation. "OKAY. First of all, I've never liked the idea that Lucius Malfoy put Lord Voldemort's old diary into Ginny Weasley's Transfiguration book because Lord Voldemort told him to. I think Lucius was acting of his own volition, and that he was perfectly happy with Lord Voldemort's defeat at Hogwarts earlier that spring. I think Lucius was furthering his own ends by using the diary and isn't too pleased about having to kiss Lord Voldemort's robe hem again. Here's why: The first real conversation Lucius has in Chamber of Secrets (after telling Draco to shut-up) is with Mr. Borgin of Borgin & Burkes on page 51 of the U.S. hardback edition. The subject of this conversation is the current wizarding world political situation. In this conversation we learn that Lucius owns several items, a number of which are poisons (potions, perhaps?) that the current Ministry would not approve of. We also learn that the Ministry, as inquisitive as they are what with all the raids, has not yet targeted the Malfoy residence." Meg pulls out the ship's worn copy of CoS and opens it to page 51 for Frankie. "See, it's right here" *************** "The Ministry wouldn't presume to trouble you, sir, surely?" Mr. Malfoy's lip curled. "I have not been visited yet. The name Malfoy still commands a certain respect, yet the Ministry grows ever more meddlesome. There are rumors about a new Muggle protection act- no doubt that flea-bitten, Muggle -loving fool Arthur Weasley is behind it-" *********** Meg nods in agreement. Frankie continues, "On page 52, we learn that Lucius is disgusted that a Muggle-born student got better grades than his pureblood son. When Mr. Borgin observes, "wizard blood is counting less and less." Mr. Malfoy replies, "Not with me." >From this conversation, we can safely conclude that the Malfoy family has been a prominent and influential part of WW society for some time, and that Mr. Malfoy is currently an influential member of WW society with political views opposite Mr. Weasley. For further support, let's jump all the way to the Quidditch World Cup in Goblet of Fire. On page 101 (U.S. hardback edition), we find out that Lucius is charming the Ministry through good works, such as his philanthropy to St. Mungo's Hospital, and that the Minister or Magic has personally invited the Malfoys into the top box at the QWC. At the end of GoF on page 706, Fudge is "visibly affronted" when Harry names Lucius as one of the Death Eaters present at Lord Voldemort's rebirth. How influential is Lucius? After Knockturn and Diagon Alleys, the next time we see him is on page 262 of CoS in Hagrid's hut. Here, Lucius over-rules Minister of Magic himself." Frankie turns to the corresponding page and reads aloud: ********** ".At this rate, there'll be no more Muggle-borns left at Hogwarts and we all know what an awful loss that would be to the school." "Oh now, see here, Lucius," said Fudge, looking alarmed, "Dumbledore suspended-no, no-last thing we want just now-" "The appointment-or suspension-of the headmaster is a matter for the governors, Fudge," said Mr. Malfoy smoothly. *********** Snapping the book shut, Frankie looks over at Meg. "Wake up captain, just a little bit more." Meg opens her eyes and mumbles something incoherent about medical school, gross anatomy and histology. Satisfied that her captain is awake, Frankie continues, "At this point in CoS, Lucius has control of the Hogwarts Board of Governors, and is using the system to gain complete control of Hogwarts. Through Draco's big mouth on page 267, we learn that Lucius will soon replace Professor McGonagall with a headmaster of his own choosing. And, that Draco's vote is for Snape. As Hagrid points out, Lucius is using blackmail and threats (we find out for sure on page 335) to achieve this, but on paper, Lucius is acting in a legally defendable, upright and moral manner." "Moral manner?" splutters Meg, fully awake now. "Just on paper, the manipulative sneak" Frankie says. She fiddles with the firing pin and then announces: "I HEREBY PUT FORTH that the entire point of Lord Voldemort's diary being given to Ginny Weasley was to ruin Arthur Weasley and his political agenda. On page 312 of CoS, we have from Riddle's own mouth that the diary contains the memory of his sixteen-year-old self, pre-Lord Voldemort, preserved "so that one day, with luck, I would be able to lead another in my footsteps, and finish Salazar Slytherin's noble work." (Of removing students of impure blood from Hogwarts.) There is nothing here about providing the bodiless Lord Voldemort a new way back to corporeal existence. Riddle is using Ginny's life force to leave the pages of the diary and solidify his sixteen-year-old self, not the current Lord Voldemort. Later on page 335, Dumbledore calls Lucius on giving the diary to Ginny. He then points out that if Harry and Ron hadn't figured the secret of the diary, there would have been no proof that Ginny did not act of her own free will. Dumbledore continues on page 336 where he says, ". The Weasleys are one of our most prominent pureblood families. Imagine the effect on Arthur Weasley and his Muggle Protection Act, if his own daughter was discovered attacking and killing Muggle-borns. By employing the diary, Lucius nearly succeeded in removing a political adversary." Frankie looks over at Meg to find her nodding in agreement. Frankie contiues, still playing with the firing pin, "I ALSO HEREBY PUT FORTH that Lucius, Lord Voldemort's former right hand man, is enjoying his current reign as the leader of the Death Eaters who are still at large. The most telling bit of evidence that Lucius has always acted in his own interest and never Lord Voldemort's after Voldemort's demise, is the conversation in the graveyard at the end of GoF on page 650. See, here." Frankie puts away the ship's CoS and opens GoF for the captain. Reading aloud, she begins: ************ "I am told you have not renounced the old ways, thought to the world you present a respectable face. You are still ready to take the lead in a spot of Muggle-torture, I believe? Yet you never tried to find me, Lucius. Your exploits at the Quidditch World Cup were fun I daresay.but might not your energies have been better directed toward finding and aiding your master?" "My Lord, I was constantly on the alert," came Lucius Malfoy's voice swiftly from beneath the hood. "Had there been any sign from you, any whisper of your whereabouts, I would have been at your side immediately, nothing could have prevented me-" "And yet you ran from my Mark, when a faithful Death Eater sent it into the sky last summer?" said Lord Voldemort lazily, and Mr. Malfoy stopped talking abruptly. "Yes, I know all about that Lucius." ************* Closing the book, Frankie explains "Here Lord Voldemort plainly states he has had no contact with Lucius from the time of his demise to the time of his rebirth. While he rubs Lucius's face in it for running from the Mark, he does not say anything about diary. On page 656, when Lord Voldemort tells the assembled Death Eaters about his quest to regain a body (before pursuing immortality), he jumps from using Quirrel and unicorn blood to Nagini and Wormtail's bumbling care. If he had instructed Lucius to set the diary in motion, he would have bragged about his ingeniousness of preserving a portion of himself in the diary and probably punished Lucius for screwing up that avenue of reincarnation." Completely hoarse from talking, Frankie sits down on the deck. Meg waves her scalpel/wand and conjures Frankie a glass of water. "You know, technically you've made two points," Meg says. "But, I can see where you're going. You think Lucius Malfoy's own ambitions will get in Lord Voldemort's way, possibly contributing to his downfall." Frankie nods. "Where on earth are we going to put this?" Meg asks herself, idly drumming her clean fingernails on the canon barrel. "Tell you what, let's put the Lucius Factor where it belongs. It can stand guard over the toilet." Frankie nods again. A tangled mess of flotsam catches her eye and she leaps overboard with an excited squeak. Meg sighs, waves her wand and transfigures the wet cannon into a small brass plaque with Lucius' picture on it. Below the picture, the words 'I LUV' SAILING OPS (Intelligent Lucius Undermines Voldemort: Secret Agenda Improves Lucius' Intense & Neverending Grasp Of Power & Superiority)' gleam on the shiny brass. Waving her scalpel/wand again, she banishes the canon/plaque from the deck to the head. "God forbid any guy leave the seat up," she mumbles to herself. Satisfied that her captainly duties are complete for the moment, she returns to studying for her medical school classes and sunning herself on the deck of the Bay's most heavily armed sailboat. Frankie Lee _________________________________________________________________ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Mon Oct 21 21:02:11 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:02:11 -0000 Subject: Let's blame Snape.... again and again! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45654 A constant trend I've noticed in the Potter series is that our beloved Potions Master is always being blamed for harming Harry... when in fact, he's doing the exact opposite! In the SS, the Gryffindor trio thinks that he's trying to steal the stone. In the CoS, the crew decides that Malfoy instead is doing the action, and don't deal with Snape... In PoA, Harry and crew fling him across the room of the Whompping Willow when Snape tried to save Harry from Sirius Black. He didn't know that Sirius was innocent, thus was just doing what he thought was right. In GoF, Harry immediately thinks that Snape threw his name into the goblet of fire... without realizing that Snape has proven to help him more than harm him. I came up with a new acronym with Snape's actions with Harry in PoA... SCRABBLE MATCH Snape (continuely & regularly) is always being blamed, loathing errupts more, and then catches Harry I really need to work on these... --Fyre Wood. From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 21 21:08:41 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:08:41 -0000 Subject: Who are the House Ghosts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45655 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ali" wrote: > A lengthy search of the archives has revealed ? well a lot of > interesting discussion about a lot of interesting things, but not >the question about ghosts and more particularly the Bloody Baron > that I was looking for! > > who then is the Bloody Baron? Is he based on someone or will he > too have a significance that we must still wait for. > > Ali > Hmmm... he probably is made up by JKR - 'Bloody Baron', or a 'Wicked Baron' was a staple of Victorian melodrama and Gothic style ghost stories. However, if you want a possible candidate, Geoffrey de Mandeville is a good one. He was actually an Earl, but in the 12th Century any nobleman was usually called 'Baron'. He was certainly quite bloody, got himself killed by an arrow, and currently haunts East Barnet, near London - modern East Barnet is enough to make any self- respecting ghost pack up and move back to the old school! http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/williamofnewburgh-one.html#11 will give you a medieval chroniclers view. No reference to his being a wizard, but Slytherin would have been proud of him. [grin] Pip [who apologises to any listies who happen to live in East Barnet, which is nice, but dull - strictly in my opinion] From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 21 21:23:02 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:23:02 -0000 Subject: Let's blame Snape.... again and again! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45656 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: > A constant trend I've noticed in the Potter series is that our > beloved Potions Master is always being blamed for harming Harry... > when in fact, he's doing the exact opposite! > In PoA, Harry and crew fling him across the room of the Whompping > Willow when Snape tried to save Harry from Sirius Black. He didn't > know that Sirius was innocent, thus was just doing what he thought > was right. I don't think that's really an example of the trio unfairly blaming snape for something. Whatever his motives, he was apparently about to feed Sirius to the Dementors. They were interested in stopping him, not in laying blame. However, in PoA Harry does assume that Snape is trying to poison Lupin, when in fact Snape is helping Lupin by making the Wolfsbane potion. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From wpfositpoi at yahoo.com Mon Oct 21 21:08:13 2002 From: wpfositpoi at yahoo.com (wpfositpoi) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:08:13 -0000 Subject: Order of the Phoenix: A different view In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45657 I'm not sure if this theory's come up before (so forgive me if you've already heard it ) but what if the Order of the Phoenix referred to Voldemort's group? Remember Voldie also has connections to the Phoenix. His wand contains a feather and he did sort of die and later rise from (his father's) ashes. What if book 5 concentrates on his gathering of followers (Death Eaters, Dementors and the Giants) and together they call themselves the Order of the Phoenix? Probably not the case but I thought I would throw it out there. "wpfositpoi" From robgonz0 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 21 21:20:16 2002 From: robgonz0 at yahoo.com (Robert Gonzalez) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:20:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwarts students and dialect References: Message-ID: <002101c27947$a73b1060$18fea8c0@WorkGroup> No: HPFGUIDX 45658 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ali" > Whilst I do agree with you in principle, I don't really see how > seperate accents and dialects would survive the workings of the WW. > The WW seems to me to be too small and too segrated from the Muggle > World to retain its many accents and dialects. I like you tend to > believe that all wizarding children are educated at Hogwarts. But I > am inclined to think that 5 or 7 years would be sufficient to modify > most children's accents to the "standard" accent, when the "standard" > accent is what they would hear day in and day out. me: I think it makes sense that there are those who, while selected to go to Hogwarts because of their wizarding abilities, either don't go or drop out and never return. These might be the kind of people who take the lowly jobs and/or retain whatever regional accents they may have. The academic route is not for everyone after all. Rob From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Mon Oct 21 22:23:16 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FILK] One More Crouch In A Coffin Message-ID: <20021021222316.98840.qmail@web40301.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45659 Before we start, I want to apologize for sending my last FILK twice yesterday. When I pushed "send" the first time, Yahoomort went to a "page can not be displayed" page. When it did the same thing the second time, I decided to check my Sent folder, and low and behold, Yahoomort did send it the first time and, unfortunately, the second time as well. I guess Yahoomort thought my filk was so nice, he'd send it twice! Now, on with the show... ONE MORE CROUCH IN A COFFIN to the tune of _One More Angel_ from JOSEPH AND THE AMAZING TECHNICOLOR DREAMCOAT midi link: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/joseph_and_the_amazing_technicolor_dreamcoat.html Dedicated to CMC (The Scene: A stage with a fake wall separating the space into two halves so we can see two scenes simultaneously. On one side, we see Barty Jr.(as Moody) at Hogwarts writing a letter, and on the other side Voldemort (in a baby buggy), Nagini and Wormtail are at the Riddle house reading that same letter after it?s been delivered. Barty Jr. has donned a cowboy hat and one cowboy boot for the occasion.) BARTY JR. (Singing as he is writing) Master, I've something to tell you... the story of my crime! Near-tragedy we did avoid, and in the nick of time You know the situation was bad but now that ain't quite true and there's no sorrow, no regrets of killing "daddy" for you.... There's one more Crouch in a coffin There ain't no tears in my eyes Father, on you I've my revenge It's "tough", but I'm gonna get by There's one less bloke at the Ministry There's one less obsessive guy Barty the senior enforcer has bought the farm in the sky When I think of his last days travel a chuckle comes to my throat he got all scratched and bloodied-up and then "Zap!"... that?s all she wrote! Your one true servant at Hogwarts has proven himself again I?m loyal to you, Lord Voldemort... Harry Potter?s next! (Barty stands up, tips his hat, and pretends that he is speaking to his father) So long, Father Adios, daddy-o 10-4 Barty Sr. VOLDEMORT (TO WORMTAIL): Crouch is no longer a problem I guess Nagini won't suck you dry Wormtail, I'll never forget this, You're lucky there was patricide Your blunder shall be forgiven this once, but you will dread What torture you will get next time You'll wish that you were dead (As Voldemort is pushed out of the room by Nagini, Wormtail is groveling, saying, "Yes, Master, your mercy knows no bounds, thank-you, thank- you..." Making sure that Voldemort is out of hearing range, he puts on his own cowboy hat and boots, let?s out a big "Yee-Haw!" and starts dancing for joy at not being fed to Nagini. At the same time, Barty Jr. knocks down the fake wall. Wormtail and Barty run to each other, enthusiastically shake hands, and lock arms to twirl around and dance to the music, hootin? and hollerin? the whole way). --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mdemeran at hotmail.com Mon Oct 21 22:25:04 2002 From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 17:25:04 -0500 Subject: TBAY: Dudley's little tail Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45660 Far away from Theory Bay, Meg sat stuck in class, learning to tell artery from nerve, which interleukins do what and where the thymus originates. Her mind tended to wander back to the blissful waters of the bay, where no one ever asked what the sixth pharyngeal arch becomes. But oddly, even her classes were reflective of Theory Bay. Her class had been discussing development and the fact that people really can have tails. It reminded her of a conversation she overheard in the wind the last time she studying on Theory Bay. She heard Grey Wolf and Melody talking and discussing her. Meg heard: "The important thing is that someone - maybe Meg, possibly Frankie - will come by to pick the fruits of my labour, and you have to know what's going on. I'm afraid that I'll probably not be able to stick around to give them directly. Anyway, according to TBAY law, every theory is entitled an acronym, even if it has no followers, so even if no-one wants it, I've created this". "RATS BE DISEASES? (Removing A Tail Shouldn't Be Enough: Dudley Is Still Enpigged After Spell-Enduced Shapeshift). That doesn't make much sense, Grey" "I know. But they are: Rats are known for transmitting loads of diseases (most of them, really, are transmitted by the rats' fleas, but never mind picky details). I thought, however, that Captain Meg would enjoy that not-so-subtle reference to her main occupation outside the Bay." The overheard conversation kept Meg going through her second test block. But she knew that as soon as the test block ended, she would have to fetch the paper. She hadn't yet met Melody and wasn't sure what might become of her boat or her crew's theory if she waited too long. So as soon as her Histology test was completed, she grabbed the nearest portakey to Theory Bay. Stepping lightly off her boat (for where else would her portakey take her?), Meg stopped to check her appearance. For having just completed a test block, she didn't look that shabby. The ever-present portable CD player, the untied tennis shoes and can of Diet Coke were completely normal in most circles. "Oh well", she muttered to herself, "it could be worse." Putting her headphones back on, she began to walk up the dock to the Safe House. Having let herself in, Meg began to wander the halls of the Safe House. "I know she is here," Meg mumbled. Pushing on a door sticking from disuse, Meg found herself in a large empty room. "This will be perfect," Meg said to herself, clearly pleased with her find. Digging out her scalpel/wand, Meg began pointing at the walls and sang to herself, "Frederick, Georges, Isidore and Camille, make these walls as strong as steel." Suddenly the room was full of noise as the walls coated themselves with layers of cinderblocks and concrete. Conjuring a chair, Meg turned her music up and waited for the walls to finish. Hearing strange noises in the Safe House, Melody decided to investigate. Entering the room where the noises were emanating from, she came across a most bizarre sight. A woman, singing with the music coming from her CD player, sat in a chair with a bulging book bag at her feet. Her hair was done in pigtails, with starched blue satin bows adorning each. Clearly wondering about this woman's mindset, Melody walked over and tapped the woman on the shoulder. "Excuse me, but who are you and just what do you think you are doing?" Turning off her CD player, the woman slowly turned around. "Oh hi. You must be Melody. I'm Meg. Grey Wolf left something for me?" Meg said with a pronounced Southern accent. "Yes he did, but wait a minute, I need to see some ID. I can't go handing out messages without proof of identification." "Ok, let me see," Meg started digging in her backpack. "Will you take a copy card with my name on it?" Seeing Melody shake her head, Meg went back to digging. "What about a student ID? No, okay, hang on. Here it is." Triumphantly, Meg pulled out her passport. "Is this acceptable?" "Yes," said Melody, scrutinizing the passport. Satisfied everything was in order Melody said "here," and dug in her pocket for a slip of paper bearing the words RATS BE DISEASES (Removing A Tail Shouldn't Be Enough: Dudley Is Still Enpigged After Spell-Enduced Shapeshift) and handed it to Meg, "but you still haven't explained what you are doing." "Thanks. Well, I am building a room for this theory. And with Hurricane Jo coming, I figured I might reinforce the walls a bit to make them safer. Living on the coast, I am use to these things." "But you can't build without canon, and why not build on your boat, why in the safe house?" Melody questioned. "I am not building without canon. My canon is just atypical. Crewmate Frankie will be by later to add more canon. And I am not building on my boat because this theory does not tie into FIRSTMEMORY FRIEND. Besides, I thought the safe house was the place for highly controversial theories." Meg stopped then, clearly trying to think of her next statement. "So explain your little theory then," Melody said with obvious contempt. "Sure thing, just let me fetch Frankie." Meg dug into her backpack, searching for something. "Aha, there it is." Meg pulled out a cell phone and punched in a number. "Sorry, would have had her here if I had known you would have so many questions. Frankie, can you come up to the Safe House? I need your help. See you in a second. And try to dry off first. I don't think they would appreciate you dripping water all through the house. Bye." Meg hung up the phone and pushed it back into the overflowing backpack. "She will be here in just a moment. Have a seat." Meg quickly conjured a comfortable chair for Melody. Melody settled into a chair and waited for Frankie. Meg glanced around the room and admired her work. "I guess my work is finished," said Meg. Suddenly, Frankie came skidding into the room. "Sorry Captain. I came as fast as I could." "It's fine, I was just getting ready to explain your theory to Melody and figured that you would want to be around. What do you think of your new room in the Safe House?" Frankie whistled in appreciation. "Anyway, I need to get back to studying, medical school never lets off you know. So let me explain my canon input into the walls to Melody and then you can explain your canon to her while I head back to school. Okay? Good." Turning to Melody, Meg cleared her throat and began. "It all began with an idea Frankie had." Pulling out a binder from her backpack, Meg opened it to a page covered in highlighter with notes scribbled liberally all over it. Pointing to a passage, Meg began, "here, she said: >Dudley is still technically half transfigured. >He has spent four of his formative years as a half-human and half-porcine being. Surgically removing his tail could not possibly have reversed Hagrid's failed transfiguration spell. I'm currently researching the growth rate and life span of hogs, and wonder if perhaps growing up in a magical state is affecting his "muggle" status. Could he possibly absorb magic and someday learn some of his own?" Looking up, Meg made sure Melody was listening. She continued, "That got me thinking. What do I know about vestigial tails and sacrococcygeal teratomas? Could they have come up with a plausible story to explain his tail. What would I have said as a doctor? What are the implications of leaving the tissue? " "Well, the answers are simple, really. During the embryonic period, humans possess a tail. It breaks down during development, of course, but sometimes it doesn't break down completely. Also, it is possible to have sacrococcygeal teratomas where the stem cells don't get the message to cut off and behave like adult cells. These develop into masses of varied tissue at the small of the back. While most of these are removed shortly after birth, it is possible that they were missed. So either way, it is possible that the Dursleys could have explained away Dudley's little appendage. It would have been a relatively simple procedure to remove it. And it would have been important to remove it. Either explanation that they used would have had the threat of malignant tissue being present. Any good doctor would have wanted to remove and biopsy the appendage long before that point. Had I seen it as a doctor, I would have wanted to remove it quickly and quietly, but would have gotten permission to write up the case in a journal or two, but I digress. But the traces of magic would have still been there. Whenever you remove tissue, you try to get good margins. That means that the edges are normal tissue. Well, since there is no evidence that magic leaves marks Muggles can detect, it is reasonable to assume that the surgeon did not get the established margins. Therefore, Frankie's idea has merit. And that's where I draw my canon. I told you it was atypical, but valid." Meg sat back in her chair, clearly exhausted from her day and conjured up another Diet Coke. "Well, I will leave you with Frankie so she can explain her ideas more fully and decorate this room. It is okay that we have it right? I thought Grey Wolf said we could. But I need to get back up to school. All I can have are short vacations for a while. Any questions?" Melody looked at her, clearly overwhelmed. "Nothing, I don't think I can think of anything at the moment," she said slowly. "Wait, I know, what is with the pigtails? Do they have to do with the theory or what?" Gathering up her stuff, Meg looked up, her blue eyes shining. "Oh my hair? No, it's purely coincidental. I needed to have my hair out of my face this morning during my test and this was the best thing I could have managed. Besides, I think they are kind of cute. Don't you?" Meg glanced over at Frankie to see her nodding. "Good answer Frankie, flattery will get you everywhere. Now, I am off to study, why don't you explain the rest of your ideas to Melody and decorate the room in something appropriate. Sound good? Let me know if you need anything else. See you soon." With that, Meg slung her bag up onto her shoulders and walked over to the fireplace. "Meg's medical school," she shouted while tossing Floo powder into the grate. "Bye!" she said as she stepped into the fireplace and was whisked back to school. -- Meg (who is thrilled that her second test block is finished and who really did wear pigtails with the described ribbons to her test and class today. They wonder about me too! :-) ) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Mon Oct 21 21:46:45 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 22:46:45 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who are the House Ghosts? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45661 Bluesqueak wrote: "who then is the Bloody Baron? Is he based on someone or will he > too have a significance that we must still wait for." What if he is Slytherin himself? Who better to look after his own house? Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Tue Oct 22 00:58:54 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:58:54 EDT Subject: Making of a Minister was; The Corruption of Fudge Message-ID: <7c.300ab120.2ae5fcce@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45662 Not having been online to see the actual website, since subscribing to the Digest, I have not investigated whatever archives might be in the "Hypothetic Alley". So if I am widely duplicating an established theory, I do apologize. The latest round of discussion regarding just where Fudge stands and whether he knows just who his stance is benefiting, is a good one. I've already made statements in earlier posts that I do NOT believe that Fudge is a blundering innocent who doesn't know what effect he is having. The more canon data which gets brought up in this discussion, the less convinced I am that he is actually a DE himself. But he sure does seem to be in their pocket, and very comfortably so. In this I tend to agree with Eloise on this one. But This post is more about how I suspect he got where he is in the first place. Over in the four Marauders = four Houses discussion we recently got a replay of the overheard scene in the Three Broomsticks concerning the four boys' school days. In that discussion Fudge states that he was a junior Minister in the Department of Magical Catastrophies at the time Sirius Black was captured, and that he, Fudge was the first on the scene. Now, it strikes me that this fact must have looked very nice on Fudge's resume come election time. And aa a Junior Minister of an "important" Department he would have been in the position of being well enough known so that the other people in the Ministry know WHO he is, without very many of them having had the opportunity to work directly with him often enough to know WHAT he is. A made-to-order dark horse candidate. We also know that he is thick as thieves with Lucius Malfoy and that there is no indication that his own underlying beliefs do not chime perfectly in tune with Malfoy's on any given subject. Fudge is more willing to pay public lip service to Arthur Weasley and his ilk's Muggle-favorable policies. But we get no feeling that he truly believes that such measures are either quite necessary or altogether fitting. Malfoy had no need to win him over in this regard. In these matters he was ALWAYS in Malfoy's camp. ("We know what Cornelius Fudge is.") Which does not necessarily mean that he would actively endorse the violent overthrow of what passes for an established wizarding government. Particularly as he is part of it. But he can redily be bought. Offer him his own neck and a comfortable retirement and he would hand Voldemort the keys without a protest. The question is how far he supported "Malfoy's" aims 15 years ago. He was certainly high enough up the ladder to have made a useful recruit, but his character does not appear to be particularly suitable to be recruited as an active terrorist. But, oh boy might he have been a willing collaborator. Which is why, upon consideration, I do not think that Fudge ever actually took the Dark Mark. It was not necessary to draw him into the inner circle to get as much cooperation and assistance from him as they wanted. And if Malfoy carefully never mentioned that he was furthering anyone else's aims in addition to his own, everybody was that much safer. So, at the time of S. Black's arrest, Voldemort is gone and apparantly the office of the Minister of Magic is up for grabs. Over the following weeks/months Dumbledore soon makes it clear that he does not want the job. Barty Crouch does and it appears that he will get it. Heaven only knows what Crouch's plans are for a peacetime government, but it seems fairly safe to say that no former DE likes the idea. We do not know whether there is anyone else opposing Crouch for the position. I still contend that the Longbottom affair was a deliberate plot to discredit Crouch. NONE of the DE's had any idea of where to go hunting for their Master, and we do not know that VaporMort was in Albania at that time, either. But Crouch had to be stopped. And we also don't know how far any of the DE's "inner circle"'s communication lines went. Karkaroff claimed in court that no one knew the identities of more than a handfull of their fellows, and there is no real reason to question the substance of this claim, even if one might choose to quibble over degree. (Karkaroff, you will note, does not mention the Lestranges. He may have been a part of a different "cell".) The plan probably only went as far as the actual group who undertook it. And any information that they DID manage to get out of the Longbottoms was no doubt passed to some associate who may or may not have sat on it. My inner cynic wonders if the plot was even more deviously far-reaching than it looks on the surface. Just how popular were the Longbottoms? Popular enough for Frank to have been another (outside) possibility for the MoM slot? We have no reason to believe that the Longbottoms were as young as the Potters, after all. Why couldn't they have been closer in age to the Weasleys and the Diggorys. (And Lucius Malfoy.) Not everyone marries and starts a family right out of Hogwarts. Frank and his wife could have married in their 30's and still have an only child Harry's age. I do not suppose that Malfoy was a part of the Lestrange's attack on Crouch's carreer, but he would have certainly seen what was going on and been positioned to take advantage of the fallout. In Cornelius Fudge, he already had a stooge in place. One who could be proposed for the top spot that no one really knew anything against. In the words of Molly ivens, Fudge "dances with who brought him". Lucius's patronage put him where he is and he is only too happy to be of use to his "constituency". He IS a corrupt politician, and one who uses his appearance of bumbling ineffectuality to disarm the worst criticism of his actions and maintain some level of personal popularity -- or at any rate tolerance -- with the poeple whose interests he is engaged in trampling. But, though he clearly supports them, and their values, I doubt that he is actually a Death Eater. By tacit agreement, I suspect the Dark Lord is politely never mentioned among him and his "handlers". But he isn't a complete fool. He knows whose interests are furthered by his actions and he hopes to bring that up when it comes time for the recconing. Not a "faithful servant', no. But a willing "employee". And, given the Kissing of Barty Crouch, one who can be entrusted to undertake major damage control. (There WAS just barely enough time for one of the rebirthday party attendees to have used the confusion at Hogwarts to contact Fudge and pass along orders. No time to spare, certainly, but just enough. And the Dementor could have already been called in to meet him.) Side question 1.: is Conelius Fudge of an age to be an old school friend of Lucius Malfoy? It might add another dimension to his lack of enthusiasm for Arthur Weasley, and give an easy "public" reason for his obvious favoritism in Malfoy's direction. Side question 2.: Is Conelius Fudge, instead, a contemporary of the Hagrid/McGonagall/Riddle generation? IS it only a 50-year-old rumor that he is going on when he has Hagrid arrested, or was he there at the time? It's only a gut feeling, but I have the distinct impression that the odds are that he may be one or the other. I rather doubt that he is older than the latter, and VERY much doubt that he is younger than the former. -JOdel From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Oct 22 02:20:25 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:20:25 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Animagus/ Teacher's names/WB trademarks titles?!/ female DADA teacher References: Message-ID: <01d201c27971$959c29a0$2ca0cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45663 CatLady wrote: > JKR has confirmed in interviews that the Animagus doesn't get to > choose his/her animal form, but instead the animal form is a > reflection of his/her personality. True, but something that Lupin said seemed odd to me. He told Harry "Yes, your father was always a stag when he transformed." Why not "your father was a stag when he transformed." Putting the word always in there implies that some animagi can be something else at different times, but that James was *always* a stag. Anyone want to clear this up? Freya writes: > But anyway I wonder why JKR has made some of the character names so > obvious, like Hooch, Sprout, Albus... (Albus! He didn't always have > white hair!). Like their names would be their destiny or something. > Aaargh! I find that annoying. Well, I think Albus can also mean favorable or fortunate. These are all listed after white, of course, but still, JKR could've taken her pick. Maybe he was the favorable or fortunate child, compared to his brother . . . whose name has just slipped my mind. Fyre Wood writes: > I still believe that book 5 will be the final book. IT will be > relatively long, but clear up everything that the supposed last three > would do. THink about it--JKR is expecting a child and at the rate > she's been crankin' out this next book, we'll all be old and gray > when the "seventh" book comes out. =( Err, I highly doubt that. Keep in mind that four books came out in four years. The first of which she had several years to work on as the story sorted out in her mind. The second of which was a high pressure book after the unexpected success of her first. Following closely was a much thicker PoA and an even thicker GoF. That's four incredible books in four years, basically. Particularly consider GoF which was huge by all accounts, and she was rushed the whole time. JKR herself has said she refuses to be rushed like that again. She took a break, then got to work on OoP, on her own schedule. She had a baby when she started writing HP. Why can't she write with this baby? I think she very well deserved a break after GoF, tremendous book under tremendous pressure and a very tight schedule. > Ethanol wrote: > > > JKR said in her last interview that it was indeed Mrs. Figg who > >would be the > next DADA teacher. Sal wrote: > I'm curious to know, in which interview did she reveal this juicy > snippet of info? I don't think she did. All she did was confirm that the book 5 DADA teacher would definitely be female. Before it was unclear if it would be book 5 DADA teacher or a future DADA teacher that would be female. The exact quote is "Well, we've obviously got a new Defence Against The Dark Arts teacher because Professor Moody wouldn't want the job again having been locked in a trunk for a year! It's a woman this time. " That's from BBC's September 2002 interview with JKR. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 22 02:35:25 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 02:35:25 -0000 Subject: TBAY: small DEW DROPS could matter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45664 Previously, on As The Bay Turns... >"Hi, Melody", says the Grey Wolf in what would be a cheery manner if >it wasn't being said by a 6' 6" werewolf weighting over 200 pounds, >"Have you moved in definitely? Do you like your logins?" >"Hi, Grey Wolf", answers Melody, "yes, I have moved in and I love my >room. It is so big! What brings you here? I thought you were off >someplace to hunt rabbits" Melody awoke with a start. Catching her breath, she looked around to figure out where she was. The shadowed sun and calm waters of the bay were quite comforting after the restless sleep she had. She leaned back against the headboard trying to figure out what just happened. She was sure it was all a dream. Something about a huge hairy beast in a nicely tailored suit. "Maybe I've just watched Beauty and the Beast too many times," she commented rationally to herself and turned over. However, she still did not feel appeased. She squinted her eyes to the back of her head to remember that there in fact was a beast...and he was a little over a foot taller than she was, but she wasn't afraid. "We seemed to be talking...in this house!" Melody jumped up and grabbed her sheets in case she needed their defense. The beast sounded so elegant," she remembered, "But why did I speak in short sentences like a five-year-old school girl?" How odd. Moreover, why was Ride of the Valkyries** playing in the background? Extremely odd. [**For those not in the know, think of the Bugs Bunny cartoon "Kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit." :) ] Feeling that food would help, Melody rolled off the bed onto the floor and headed, or rather stumbled, down the stairs. On the way down, she also remembered something about boldface words drawn from the air. "How strange," she said even though she was the only one around. "It seemed so real." Reaching the bottom, she smelled the fresh bacon from Sneaky's cast iron pan. At least she knew that was real. Sneaky smiled brightly at the tousled hair and sleepy eyes of the Safe House's new member. "Good morning, Miss Melody," Sneaky chirped. "Morning Sneaky...Thanks," she greeted while taking her plate. The breakfast nook is very cozy but felt a bit isolated this morning. "Sneaky, where is everyone?" "Off. They's busy. Very busy." Sneaky answered while disinfecting the counter. "Oh," Melody said sitting down at the scrubbed table. After a few heavy moments, at least by Melody's perspective, Melody asked, "Sneaky, did Grey Wolf come home last night?" "Oh yes'm. Very quickly. Very urgently." Sneaky said with pride. Sitting back in her chair, Melody thought aloud, "Oh. I didn't imagined it...Is he still here?" Sneaky stopped working for a moment and looked at Melody with a quizzical look. "Oh no ma'am. He's long gone. Comes and goes as he pleases. You should know that." "Yeah I do, but I thought he might at least rest a bit," Melody explained while playing with her toast. "Is Pip here?" "Yes'm. As usual. Busy in her study." said with pride again by Sneaky. "Think she'd mind if I interrupted her a bit?" as Melody finished her bacon. "Only a bit," Sneaky offered. "Thanks, Sneaky." Melody said as she grasped her cup of orange juice and headed towards the study. It was one of her favorite rooms in the House. So many books and volumes all on a boy named Harry and his world. Hundreds and hundreds of volumes about military warfare, hidden motives, plus the odd book about bloody ghosts. All spectacularly catalogued, collated, and filed to be able to find in an instance. In a high leather chair, Pip sat frantically typing away at her computer desk, which overlooked the bay. >From the double doors, Melody called, "Pip?" Pips fingers froze over the keyboard as she turned toward the creature that dared to interrupt. Seeing her new housemate, Pip's face relaxed and she gently smiled. "Yes, Mel?" "Well, I had an odd dream last night, and I was wondering...well you see Sneaky said...well...was Grey here last night?" Melody managed to sputter out. "Yes in fact he was." Pip said still smiling. "Oh, he sure bustled his way back out, didn't he?" "Generally does. Makes him feel that he is still independent." Pip answered rather matter of fact, "Did you need him for something?" "Well sort of...you see...I dreamed, or rather it seems, I talked with him last night about acronyms. Something about a half rat/half pig. I'm not sure now." Pip laughed amused. "He can be a bit peculiar when still in wolf form." "No kidding, but anyway, I was wondering how does one launch their own?" Melody finally asked. Pip rocked back into her chair. "Hmmm, generally it is bestowed on them, but recently it has been the owners responsibility to raise the mast and set it to sail." Pip said rather patiently. "Oh, so that's all? I just have to name it really?" Melody said amazed at the simplicity of it all. She was sure there had to be a committee or an official swearing in ceremony or something. "Pretty much," Pip answered, "Now if you don't have any more questions, I'd like to get back..." "Oh, no, no. Don't let me keep you with my silly questions." Melody said meekly feeling selfish for distracting her for so long. Pip smiled once again, "Their not silly, just innocent." "Oh...ok...I'll just..." but Pip had already swiveled back around and was typing in a blur of fingers. Melody backed her way quietly out of the study. Maybe one day Pip will be able to come out and play," Melody hoped will climbing back up the grand stairs. "And maybe Grey Wolf will stay long enough to leave a watermark next time," she mused entering her room. Melody gathered the pieces she needed off her dresser and headed back downstairs and out the back door. Crossing the lush grass sprinkled with topiaries of cannons, Melody headed straight for the dock. Sitting down so that her toes just touch the water, Melody arranged her pieces out to construct her little boat. All pieces for the boat were gathered from her personal post kits numbers 45002, 45008, 45092 (which has the longer, in-depth version). First, the body of the boat needed to be constructed: >Dumbledore's magical pocket watch is used by Dumbledore to monitor >the general state of Harry's being thus helping Dumbledore protect >Harry without directly being there. Once the body was in place, Melody rested a few can(n)ons on board to defend her tender craft: >First reference is Dumbledore's watch >PS/SS Ch 1: >twelve hands, no numbers, little planets running around the edge >We are given no knowledge about what the watch says, but we do know >after Dumbledore peers at the watch, he announces that Hagrid is >late. >Second reference is the clock *on the wall* in the Weasley's kitchen >CoS Ch 3: >only one hand, no numbers, written words around the edge >This clock seems to assist Molly in her chores like a day planner. >It only gives constructive, household instruction and only has one >hand which I presume to be representing Molly. >Third reference is the *grandfather* clock in the Weasley's house >GoF Ch 10: >nine golden hands engraved with each family member's name, no >numbers, written around the face are "descriptions of where each >family member might be" >Each hand of the clock represents a family member and reveals to the >viewer what the current state of the family. >This clock and the kitchen clock are both in English and can be >understood by every member of the Weasley family. Finally, Melody attached the mass and drew up the sail. The only thing missing from her cute little boat was to christen it with its own name. Wanting a little ceremonious fanfare, Melody pulled out a small kazoo and whizzed a simple trumpet fanfare similar to the one in the opening of Pictures on an Exhibition. "I hereby decree this tiny ship, DEW DROP! Dumbledore's Extraordinary Watch Draws Reconnaissance On Potter" Melody said proudly and importantly. The seagulls chirped in agreement making it official. Watching her tiny ship sail out in the horizon, Melody was proud of her accomplishment. It may not be the biggest ship in the fleet, and it may not even be the most important, but it is built strong and the mast is high. "Hmmm, now what to do with the rest of my day?" she pondered while playing leap frog with some of the topiaries. Melody From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Tue Oct 22 02:21:14 2002 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (kaarlo moran) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 22:21:14 -0400 Subject: Order of the Phoenix: A different view In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45665 > I'm not sure if this theory's come up before (so forgive me if > you've already heard it ) but what if the Order of the Phoenix > referred to Voldemort's group? > That is possible....I haven't kept too much track on all the discussions on the meaning of OOP so let me also apologize in advance if I'm rehashing what's already been said. I did a search in a dictionary on 'Phoenix' and it says that it's another word for 'immortality' or reaching the highest level of something or 'paragon'. We know that Voldemort eventually wants immortality, so perhaps the 'Order' is a very old or ancient spell he'll try and use to get what he wants. The Phoenix in Egyptian myth was a bird that was reborn every 5-6 centuries, so *maybe* some kind of occurrence will arrive that will give him that power? In case anyone is interested, Phoenix was also the tutor of Achilles...for all you Greek myth nuts...:-) -K-lo From SylverSongblade at aol.com Tue Oct 22 06:16:01 2002 From: SylverSongblade at aol.com (SylverSongblade at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 02:16:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: WB trademark titles Message-ID: <1c1.6527ed.2ae64721@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45666 Hello all, I'm new here ^_^ But I had a though on the "bogus" HP titles. Knowing Warnder Bros. and the conglomerate cashcow HP is, they could possibly be titles to spinoff video games that could have been shucked or set aside for all we know. Or some other marketing ploy WB has up their sleeves. Nice to meet you all ^_^ ~ Sylvia T. Leung ~ ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v Wish?: an online manga: http://www.wish3.net Art Prints for Sale: http://www.ellenmilliongraphics.com/sylver/ Commission Info: http://www.illuminatorsguild.com/images/sleung/sleung.html "Everyone can feel holy. Religion is just an excuse." ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From primroseburrows at yahoo.com Tue Oct 22 12:30:02 2002 From: primroseburrows at yahoo.com (Primrose Burrows) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 05:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] WB trademarks titles?! (was Re: Rumours denied - the next books) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021022123002.92281.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45667 Fyre Wood wrote: >THink about it--JKR is expecting a child and at the rate >she's been crankin' out this next book, we'll all be >old and gray when the "seventh" book comes out. =( >--Fyre Wood, who chucks her GOF book at the cat. Ah, but women have been known to be at their most creative while pregnant, and actually manage to get quite a bit done. Stephen King is finishing up his seven-book Dark Tower series, which has taken him many, many years to write (I know, I've been waiting). He's doing it despite the fact that his eyesight is almost gone. Not to mention the fact that he was nearly killed a couple of years ago. I think JKR can handle finishing HP. She says she is, and I believe her. As for Book Eight? I still maintain that Book Eight will be called "Draco Malfoy and the Redemption of Slytherin" Biased? Moi? Nah. :D. primrose "We're strange allies with warring hearts; what wild-eyed beast you be..." --Dave Matthews --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From primroseburrows at yahoo.com Tue Oct 22 12:30:16 2002 From: primroseburrows at yahoo.com (Primrose Burrows) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 05:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] WB trademarks titles?! (was Re: Rumours denied - the next books) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021022123016.23086.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45668 Fyre Wood wrote: >THink about it--JKR is expecting a child and at the rate >she's been crankin' out this next book, we'll all be >old and gray when the "seventh" book comes out. =( >--Fyre Wood, who chucks her GOF book at the cat. Ah, but women have been known to be at their most creative while pregnant, and actually manage to get quite a bit done. Stephen King is finishing up his seven-book Dark Tower series, which has taken him many, many years to write (I know, I've been waiting). He's doing it despite the fact that his eyesight is almost gone. Not to mention the fact that he was nearly killed a couple of years ago. I think JKR can handle finishing HP. She says she is, and I believe her. As for Book Eight? I still maintain that Book Eight will be called "Draco Malfoy and the Redemption of Slytherin" Biased? Moi? Nah. :D. primrose "We're strange allies with warring hearts; what wild-eyed beast you be..." --Dave Matthews --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sally at gristiegraphics.co.uk Tue Oct 22 17:26:37 2002 From: sally at gristiegraphics.co.uk (sallygrist) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:26:37 -0000 Subject: new female DADA teacher In-Reply-To: <20021021203442.14042.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45669 > Ethanol wrote: > > > JKR said in her last interview that it was indeed Mrs. Figg who > >would be the > next DADA teacher. > Maria wrote: > > In past interviews, JKR has revealed that there will be a female DADA teacher in the next books, and also that Mrs Figg is the same > Arabella Figg mentioned at the end of GoF, and will show up in the > next books too. Only in the last interview, she said that the female > DADA teacher will actually be in book 5, The Order of the Phoenix. > But she has never said that the female teacher was going to be Mrs. > Figg. Sally says: Yes, thanks very much for clearing that one up Maria, I was under exactly the same impression myself. However, I can understand how easily the connection can be assumed. These are my thoughts on the possibility of Mrs Figg being the next DADA teacher. (Please forgive me if this topic has already been discussed but I'm new to the group and haven't yet got to grips properly with the archive system). Book 4 has revealed that Arabella Figg has an important role to play in the future reformation of PD's 'old crowd'. We know that she is the same 'mad old lady' who we met briefly in Book 1, although we don't know if she's always lived near Privet Drive, or whether she was stationed there by PD after Harry was delivered to the Dursleys. I can't find the exact quote but I believe PD say's something somewhere along the lines of Harry being safer at Privet Drive than even he realises. This makes it reasonable to suggest that the close proximity of AF is the reason for HP's safety while he's in the muggle world. So if she is HP's guardian, then she would have to have some profoundly magical ability for PD to be confident enough to place HP in her safe-keeping. What form this magic is, is anyone's guess, but surely she would have to be highly skilled in DADA if she's to keep HP safe from the most evil wizard in wizard-dom? And at the height of his power, PoA tells us that LV was killing muggles too, so he has power enough to be a threat in the muggle world as well as the wizard world. It would take a highly competent witch or wizard to take on the responsibility as HP's personal protector from such dangers. OTOH, it's possible that something along the lines of a Fidelius Charm could have been put to use, in which case she wouldn't need any special skill to keep him safe, just the ability to keep a secret. But supposing the former is the case, then she would be an obvious candidate for the new appointment of DADA teacher. And as LV is once more on the loose, it also makes sense that AF will be protecting HP at school as well as at home, now that the LV-danger-factor has increased. Two points to note though, if she's a witch, why did she have to use crutches after breaking her leg? Surely Madam Pomphrey isn't the only witch with a bottle of Skelegrow in her bathroom cabinet? And secondly, if she does take up the post, what's going to happen to Tibbles, Snowy Mr Paws and Tufty (et al)? Will they all be taking up residence at Hogwarts? Unless.... It's the cats who are the protectors of Harry???? Now there's a thought. Its not AF who's guarding Harry, its her cats. Could they be Animagi? And if so, who are they in their wizard form, or else what special powers might animals have that would keep Harry safe from LV? In Book 3 Crookshanks certainly displayed a few extra psychic abilities than your average cat, so could AF's pets also be harbouring some magical powers? Any thoughts? From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Tue Oct 22 17:35:40 2002 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:35:40 -0000 Subject: Who are the House Ghosts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45670 > Bluesqueak wrote: "who then is the Bloody Baron? Is he based on someone or will he > > too have a significance that we must still wait for." >christopher_g_nuttall at h...> wrote: > What if he is Slytherin himself? Who better to look after his own house? > Chris > me: But Harry has seen a statue of Slytherin in the Chamber of Secrets and presumably sees the Bloody Baron frequently. He'd notice if they were the same 'person'. Then again, if Harry was too distracted to notice in the Chamber, or ghosts can disguise themselves... still, I think not. -Ing From snapesangel2002 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 22 17:28:19 2002 From: snapesangel2002 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Laura=20Bainham?=) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 18:28:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: WB trademark titles & OoP thoughts In-Reply-To: <1c1.6527ed.2ae64721@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021022172819.87222.qmail@web40710.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45671 SylverSongblade at aol.com wrote: Hello all, I'm new here ^_^ But I had a though on the "bogus" HP titles. Knowing Warnder Bros. and the conglomerate cashcow HP is, they could possibly be titles to spinoff video games that could have been shucked or set aside for all we know. Or some other marketing ploy WB has up their sleeves. Nice to meet you all ^_^ ~ Sylvia T. Leung ~ That could be it, but I reckon it was just a ploy to sell papers. I don't know which tabloid printed the story (I'd put my bets on the Sun or the Mirror), but I think this paper made up the story knowing that the current hype for HP and the upcoming movie is going to have the fans buying anything with HP content. I myself have bought three magazines recently, just for the HP film snippets! Anyway, going back to theories, what does everyone make of Snapes expression at the end of GoF when he looks at Harry? I wonder how his behaviour towards him might change in the OoP? Something else that's had me thinking is whether the "old crowd" knew of Sirius' innocence by the night of the third task. Why would Dumbledore send Sirius to alert them otherwise? Does this mean his name may be cleared if there are people to say he's helping in the fight against LV? Laura~ (who's also new, and watches Newsround every weekday with her fingers crossed) --------------------------------- Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Tue Oct 22 18:55:46 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 18:55:46 -0000 Subject: Who are the House Ghosts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45672 Ingachristsuperstar kindly wrote: > > Bluesqueak wrote: "who then is the Bloody Baron? Is he > based on someone or will he > > > too have a significance that we must still wait for." > > >christopher_g_nuttall at h...> wrote: > > What if he is Slytherin himself? Who better to look after his > own house? > > Chris > > > me: > But Harry has seen a statue of Slytherin in the Chamber of > Secrets and presumably sees the Bloody Baron frequently. He'd > notice if they were the same 'person'. > > Then again, if Harry was too distracted to notice in the Chamber, > or ghosts can disguise themselves... > > still, I think not. > > -Ing Fyre Wood (ME) replies: I go with the theory that Harry was too distracted with rescuing Ginny. I mean, could you honestly see him running toward her body and then stopping in front of the statue saying "Hmm, so *that's* Slytherin.. he looks like the Bloody Barron. Wow.." and then continues to stare at it for a few more minutes. I think not =p --Fyre Wood, who found a film review of the movie that must not be named and thinks that there's a confusing line in it regarding Dumbledore having a lightning bolt scare too?! From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Oct 22 20:04:17 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 20:04:17 -0000 Subject: WB trademark titles & OoP thoughts In-Reply-To: <20021022172819.87222.qmail@web40710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45673 Laura Bainham wrote: > Something else that's had me thinking is whether the "old crowd" knew > of Sirius' innocence by the night of the third task. Why would > Dumbledore send Sirius to alert them otherwise? Does this mean his > name may be cleared if there are people to say he's helping in the > fight against LV? > > Laura~ (who's also new, and watches Newsround every weekday with her > fingers crossed) Hi, Laura, welcome to the lists. This question ties quite nicely with my latest musing (that I will post when I finish developing it, sometime soon, I hope) about Sirius. Since it is not strictly what I'm working on, I think I'll give you my view. There are two pieces of can(n)on in this case: the part you've already pointed out of *Sirius* being sent to collect the rest of the old gang, and all those letters that Sirius and Dumbledore exchange between the end of PoA and the end of GoF. Where does this take us? Well, for one thing, we can safely extrapolate that Dumbledore mantains frecuent contact with his associates and allies, to keep them informed of what going on in bigger or smaller detail. There might be reasons for Dumbledore comunicating exclusively with Sirius, I know (Harry figures prominently in most of the ones I can think), but it really makes sense (even if you don't buy MAGIC DISHWASHER) that Dumbledore keeps his friends close. So, if Dumbledore *does* indeed exchange letters with most of the old gang, they would have probably advised them that Sirius can be trusted (notice that there is no reason for Sirius to be inocent to be trusted: Hagrid was trusted, even though he was considered guilty for many years, and Snape is trusted even though he *is* guilty). Whatever their feelings are, the members of Dumbledore's old gang have to trust *him*, not any of his allies of choice. It is probable, however, that Dumbledore might have started a campaign to clean Sirius' image, at least between his own allies, since trust is going to be important. I wouldn't be too awed, either, if it turns out that most of them know Sirius is an animagus. It is this form that makes him a good envoy to contact them, since most wizards and muggles will ignore it (except to get out of the way of a dog the size of a bear, that is). Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Oct 22 20:14:16 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 20:14:16 -0000 Subject: FILK: Dark Defense Tutorial Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45674 Dark Defense Tutorial A filk by Pippin to the tune of Gilbert and Sullivan's I am the very Model of a Modern Major General Hear the original at http://math.boisestate.edu/gas/pirates/p13.mid Dedicated to CMC The Scene: Lockhart's Office, September, 1992 Lockhart sings while putting up posters and photographs of himself. The images join in on the chorus LOCKHART: I'll teach the very model of a Dark Defense tutorial I'll cover subjects vegetable animal and mineral I know the spooks of England, and the lore of beasts fantastical >From to Augereys to Unicorns in order alphabetical I'm very well acquainted too with matters on the Quidditch pitch I could have played for England if I hadn't caught the Dark Arts itch And when it comes to potions I am teeming with a lot of brews Restoratative draughts are something I can whip up while I snooze ALL: Restoratative draughts are something we can whip up while we snooze LOCKHART Oh I have even cured a werewolf having mastered Homorphus And I've dealt with a vampire so that he could only suck lettuce In short in matters sorcerous tenebrous and black magical I'll teach the very model of a Dark Defense tutorial ALL: In short in matters sorcerous tenebrous and black magical We'll teach the very model of a Dark Defense tutorial **** WIZARD CALENDAR PAGES flip past to June: Ron and Harry have come to offer their help in rescuing Ginny Lockharts sings a reprise as he packs ***** LOCKHART: Oh I've a real talent when it comes to turning pixies loose For dimly signing forged requests for students wanting polyjuice And whilst I gladly act out all the scenes from my collected books If you believe I did that stuff you really are a pair of schnooks. RON AND HARRY: And while he gladly acts out all the scenes from his collected books If we believe he did that stuff we really are a pair of schnooks? LOCKHART: In fact if I knew what was meant by kneazle and Abraxian If I could tell at sight a hippocampus from a pogrebin And if I knew precisely how the leprechaun can do its tricks And if in facing basilisks no other Auror took such risks If I had learned what progress has been made in fighting You Know Who And if my lilac robes had all assumed a much more modest hue In short if I'd a smattering of dark arts fighting strategy I wouldn't have to hex you both and say it was a tragedy. RON AND HARRY: He's going to try and hex us both and say it was a tragedy LOCKHART: For though I've boasted daily in my Dark Defense tutorial My dark arts fighting knowledge, I'm afraid, is rather minimal Besides the winning smile with which I hawk my wares authorial The only skill I really have is with my charms memorial [Harry performs Expelliarmus and Lockhart's wand flies from his hand] RON AND HARRY: If he had mastered magic other than his charms memorial We'd say there never was a better Dark Defense tutorial From crussell at arkansas.net Tue Oct 22 21:12:00 2002 From: crussell at arkansas.net (bugaloo37) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:12:00 -0000 Subject: Let's blame Snape.... again and again! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45675 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: > A constant trend I've noticed in the Potter series is that our > beloved Potions Master is always being blamed for harming Harry... > when in fact, he's doing the exact opposite! > I think the reason Snape gets such a bad rap is the fact that he constantly verbally abuses Harry-not just in class but also in private. Harry only knows what he is allowed to know. In other words, if Snape is indeed a part of some secret Harry protective service- there is no way Harry could know that. IMO, given the number of times Snape has stepped in on Harry's behalf- for example, in PS/SS, the quidditch match and the fact that Dumbledore has vouched for Snape, I predict Harry's opinion concerning Snape is bound to change starting with book 5. Let's look at what Harry knows FOR CERTAIN- about Snape: 1) First and IMO foremost, he knows that Dumbledore trusts him; 2) he knows via Quirrelmort that Snape saved his life during the quidditch match; 3) he knows Snape prepared potions in order to help Lupin; 4) he knows his father saved Snape's life; and 5) at the end of GoF, he sees Dumbledore send Snape on a secret mission. Put this all together and add in Snape's antagonistic behavior towards Harry and IMO, it adds up to a very confused Harry in regards to Snape. I guess what I am saying here is that Harry is begining to learn not to take things at face value- this is indeed a hard lesson to learn especially for someone who has been as maltreated as he has. Experience is the greatest teacher and Harry has had plenty already. IMO, Harry is on the road to maturity and I think learning to give Snape the benefit of the doubt is going to be a giant step. bugaloo37-who thinks Harry seeing Snape and Sirius shaking hands albeit tentatively should also have an effect on Harry. From petra.delisser at saunalahti.fi Tue Oct 22 21:21:24 2002 From: petra.delisser at saunalahti.fi (brinforest) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:21:24 -0000 Subject: Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45676 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" wrote: > Do you think these words will be coming back to haunt us later in the > series? Perhaps it is some sort of charm spell that continues to > help protect Harry? Has this been discussed before? > > Julie Yay! Someone asking about the one thing I have my very own theory on! I posted a long time ago that I think the words represent people (see Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs). And these four could be either the founders of Hogwarts, or, as I prefer, the "Marauders" of Dumbledore's youth, him being one. Clue? The way it's written. It isn't "Nitwit, Blubber, Oddment and Tweak!" because that way the secret would have been out straight after PoA. And why is he naming them, whoever they are? He's simply honouring them. He's either honouring the founders, or his own friends (or siblings.. who was it who came up with Algie and Arabella along with Aberforth being AD's siblings?) who may be either long since dead, or perhaps even alive... and the whole point is that nobody knows what it means! At Hogwarts, nobody else comes close to his age. He could be expressing out loud, but in a way that nobody is even meant to understand, that he was once a young boy, a Hogwarts student, and a prankster. Anyway, what I most expect is hearing the words from Dumbledore again, in a climactic battle scene, bellowed like thunder in a call for backup, either in the form of real live people... or the spiritual support of dear friends long gone. Brin From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Tue Oct 22 21:35:45 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:35:45 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45677 "In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" wrote: > Do you think these words will be coming back to haunt us later in the > series? Perhaps it is some sort of charm spell that continues to > help protect Harry?" I write: Perhaps its just Dumbledore's little joke, and does not have any real relerence at all. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 22 21:59:58 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:59:58 -0000 Subject: Swords: Broad or Dainty Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45678 As I was watching to previews of the upcoming Potter event that must not be named, I began to wonder... What kind of sword would an 11th century knight carry and generally have in his possession? We know that the founding four were around a thousand years before Harry. Now assuming they all died at the normal ripe old age for wizards and witches, what they owned would be reflected in the time period they lived in. Now, in the CoS, the only description we have of Godric's sword is-- Ch 17: "Something very hard and heavy...almost knocking him out." "Gleaming silver sword...handle glittering with rubies the size of eggs." "Harry threw his whole weight behind the sword and drove it to the hilt..." Ch 18: "...name engraved just below the hilt." Only reference again to the sword is in GoF-- Ch 30: "magnificent silver sword with large rubies set into the hilt." Ok my point, what kind of sword would this be? In the previews of the MTMNBM part II, we see Harry thrusting about a Musketeer-esque sword. Very pretty, very honorable, but this type of sword did not come around till the 16th - 17th century, right? Wouldn't Godric have a William Wallace type sword...a broad sword? it does not have to be as big as Wallace's, I mean a normal 12 year old boy could not wield that size of a sword and Harry obviously was able to maneuver this one about a bit, but it would be substantially bigger, right? So, any swords experts out there? I confess to know a little. I think I have a coloring book about swords somewhere. :) Melody Who believes wherever there is a cape there has to be a sword...and preferable a kilt too. :) From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue Oct 22 22:40:03 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:40:03 -0000 Subject: Swords: Broad or Dainty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45679 Melody wrote: > > Ok my point, what kind of sword would this be? In the previews of > the MTMNBM part II, we see Harry thrusting about a Musketeer-esque > sword. Very pretty, very honorable, but this type of sword did not > come around till the 16th - 17th century, right? Wouldn't Godric > have a William Wallace type sword...a broad sword? it does not have > to be as big as Wallace's, I mean a normal 12 year old boy could not > wield that size of a sword and Harry obviously was able to maneuver > this one about a bit, but it would be substantially bigger, right? > > So, any swords experts out there? I confess to know a little. I > think I have a coloring book about swords somewhere. :) > > > Melody > Who believes wherever there is a cape there has to be a sword...and > preferable a kilt too. :) OK, I'm not an "expert" of swords except by a stretch of the word (I only know what I've picked up in years of videogames... which is quite a lot, on the other hand, but almost never related to real history, so I'm a little shacky in assigning swords to years), but I'm going to give a shot at answering this. First, I should place the situation. We're around the year 1000, more or less (not even Binns know for sure, but it gives a figure to work with). Now, this is the very start of middle ages. Barbarism rules almost all Europe (except for Iberian peninsula, but I'm not going into that), and most of what the romans had advanced has been forgotten -except, presumably, the art of war. Smiths aren't really all that advanced; it is interesting that swords got bigger as time passed: in ancient times, swords were short, not those impresive bastard, broad and double grip swords we always picture middle ages knights in. This is for a very simple reason: making a sword that big requires very advanced smithy techniques, that weren't developed until later. IIRC (although don't quote me on this), the developments of correct steel-making techniques happened in the 12-14 century (depending on the place). Which means that at the time of Godric no-one had thought of those sort of swords yet. The sort of sword you'd get is the one you'd expect a roman to use: a short, broad bladed, iron or steel sword. At first I thought I could play the "wizards are advanced" card, but wizards wouldn't be proficient in armoury tech - more the reverse, actually. So, what is the sword, I hear cry (toghether with not-so-few "get to the point"s)? IMO, it's the sort of sword you'd expect from a rich roman family, well preserved over the years. For one thing, it's the sort of sword a 12-year-old could find heavy, but still use with certain degree of aptitude: I have real broadswords in my house, and I know that when I was 12 I had difficulty to lift them, so that trying to wave it around meant that I orbited around the sword almost more than the sword orbited around me. To cut this short, I think that historical evidence, as well as inter-textual evidence, would suggest a sensible roman or roman-esque sword (maybe somewhat improved from the basic design), but not the sort of sword you'd expect from Ivanhoe or Wallace - those came around later. A short sword (maybe coated in magic? after seing an enchated car, a magic sword sholdn't raise any blisters) that a skinny and small 12 year-old could use. As I say, I might have gotten the timing wrong (meaning that longswords already existed at the time), but I still believe -now that I have actually thought rationally through it- that a short sword would make more sense. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Oct 22 23:14:13 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:14:13 -0000 Subject: Pensieve's Receivin' (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45680 Pensieve's Receivin' (GoF, Chap. 30) To the tune of Pennies From Heaven Dedicated to Jenny of Ravenclaw (Jenny's from Heaven!) Hear Bing Crosby's rendition at: http://stage.vitaminic.co.uk/main/bing_crosby/all_tracks/,3 (thanks to Gail B. for that link) THE SCENE: DUMBLEDORE'S office. HARRY had just emerged from the Pensieve following DUMBLEDORE'S intervention. HARRY A long time ago - 'round 1983 On trial for their lives were three accused DEs But I was not Apparated so I could observe that pack Time-turners weren't operated to give me this weird flashback It would appear I sometimes vanish now and then Into Tom's diary, or Dumbledore's basin .. DUMBLEDORE You should be curious, son But also use some caution....... Extra thoughts my brain retains, Pensieve's receivin' When I can't quite things explain, Penseive's relievin' I see the patterns falling right into place Through its links it can fill in Ev'ry blank space HARRY Seeing Karkaroff and Crouch with Ludo Bagman Was quite an epiphany that raised a flag, man So when I need tech support through MOM's courtroom hist'ry There's a Pensieve retrievin' your thoughts for me (Instrumental Bridge) DUMBLEDORE ............................It raises a flag, man Why am I Snape believin'? - Don't plan even to ask But I wish for you good luck with the third task...... - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From obby at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Oct 22 22:47:28 2002 From: obby at blueyonder.co.uk (Richard Thorp) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:47:28 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Swords: Broad or Dainty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <113348385468.20021022234728@blueyonder.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 45681 Tuesday, October 22, 2002, 10:59:58 PM, Melody wrote: M> Now, in the CoS, the only description we have of Godric's sword is-- M> Ch 17: "Something very hard and heavy...almost knocking him out." M> "Gleaming silver sword...handle glittering with rubies the size M> of eggs." M> "Harry threw his whole weight behind the sword and drove it to M> the hilt..." M> Ch 18: "...name engraved just below the hilt." M> Only reference again to the sword is in GoF-- M> Ch 30: "magnificent silver sword with large rubies set into the hilt." My mental image of the sword was *definitely* a broadsword style, indeed similar Wallace's in the Braveheart film, albeit smaller as you say :) But its also possible its a rapier style sword, even that sort of weapon has a surprising weight to it for someone not use to weilding it (I know this, having visited one of those re-enactment events, and taking part in fencing.. even a foil is relatively heavy if you're used to weilding nothing heavier than a wand :) Still I belive its unlikely Godric would have something like that though.. A rapier is a thinking mans weapon, and although I'm sure Godric was intelligent, bravery in battle (IMO) is not associated with thought, and thus a broadsword (or at least, a longsword) would be logical.. Altho its also possible it was a gladius style weapon (What the Romans used to conquer the world :), although again I imagine Godric would not be part of a shield-wall, rather the lone warrior.. Anyway I'm rambling :) M> Ok my point, what kind of sword would this be? In the previews of the M> MTMNBM part II, we see Harry thrusting about a Musketeer-esque sword. M> Very pretty, very honorable, but this type of sword did not come M> around till the 16th - 17th century, right? Wouldn't Godric have a M> William Wallace type sword...a broad sword? it does not have to be as M> big as Wallace's, I mean a normal 12 year old boy could not wield that M> size of a sword and Harry obviously was able to maneuver this one M> about a bit, but it would be substantially bigger, right? I don't think that the sword used in the movie-that-must-not-be-named is the right choice, but its all up to the director/prop designers really. M> So, any swords experts out there? I confess to know a little. I M> think I have a coloring book about swords somewhere. :) -Rich, not an expert but an enthusiast :) msn: obbles at hotmail.com PS: This is all totally opinion based, from reading a lot of heroic fantasy, taking part in fantasy Live-roleplay and going to a couple of re-enactors fairs :) From m.bockermann at t-online.de Wed Oct 23 01:13:31 2002 From: m.bockermann at t-online.de (m.bockermann at t-online.de) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 01:13:31 -0000 Subject: new female DADA teacher References: <1035295190.3767.29735.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002301c27a32$951db220$6cf99b3e@computer> No: HPFGUIDX 45682 Hi there! Maria wrote, in answer to Sal's question and my own nonsense: In past interviews, JKR has revealed that there will be a female DADA teacher in the next books, and also that Mrs Figg is the same Arabella Figg mentioned at the end of GoF, and will show up in the next books too. Only in the last interview, she said that the female DADA teacher will actually be in book 5, The Order of the Phoenix. But she has never said that the female teacher was going to be Mrs. Figg. You are right, Maria. JKR mentioned Arabella *and* that the next DADA would be female. I thought 1 + 1 would equal 2, but of course there could still be another DADA teacher. Thanks for correcting me. I will go stand in a corner, now. Greetings, Ethanol From mundungus42 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 22 23:46:08 2002 From: mundungus42 at yahoo.com (Her Ladyship) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:46:08 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Dudley's little tail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45683 Mun42 lay in her hammock on the deserted island, sipping at her hooch and tonic and really missing ice. It was too bad, really, that she didn't have a quill. She still received her weekly Proceedings of the Royal Academy of Wizarding Science by owl post, but had no way of replying. Not that the owls were in any mood to wait for a response after flying a heavy journal 4000 miles to her isle and never receiving so much as a knut. So nothing but herself, her survival instincts, periodicals, and junk mail to keep her company. She was, perhaps, the only person in the world who looked forward to all the AOL upgrade discs. Her eye fell on an article about a group of Italian Muggles producting transgenic pigs and frowned. Now where had she heard a similar discussion? Aah, yes! She shuffled her way through recent HP4GU topics. Eureka! Vestigal tails? Embryology? Brilliant! The only thing left to do is expound! Mun pulled out her trusty palm pilot (stylus and pad made from the native foliage) and began to write... "I submit sidenote XENOTRANSPLANT (Xing ENOugh Topics to Rail Against Non-Surgical Postulates, Laypersons, And Non Techies) to Theory RATS BE DISEASES(Removing A Tail Shouldn't Be Enough: Dudley Is Still Enpigged After Spell-Enduced Shapeshift). >Surgically removing his tail could not possibly have reversed >Hagrid's failed transfiguration spell. I would argue that the spell didn't fail- it was just incomlplete. If the spell affected only the area of the coccyx, the surgery would have effectively removed all porcine bits. However, it is intersting to wonder if the transfiguration succeeded on a cellular level... > Well, since there is no evidence that magic leaves marks Muggles >can detect, it is reasonable to assume that the surgeon did not get >the established margins. She might have been able to establish margins if one of the following were true: 1) Hagrid succeeded in completely transfiguring the human tailbone into a pig's tail. Even though both Dudley and many breeds of swine are pink, there is a discernable difference between the two types of skin, especially on a pig's tail. 2) The pathologist realized that the tissues are not human, ran every ELISA in the book before identifying loads of porcine-specific compounds. And now to the meat of XENOTRANSPLANT: I submit that the tail is merely a superficial extension of Dudley's human tissues and not actually porcine tissue and offer the following as (admittedly inconclusive) support: 1)Hagrid only had three years of transfiguration and isn't capable of such a subtle cellular transfiguration. We have seen that an unsuccessful transfiguration is one that is incomplete (turtles breathing steam, silvery pointy matchstick). This indicates that a complete transfiguration goes down to the molecular level. 2) The tail did not fall off on its own. Part of the problem with transplanting animal parts to people is that the immune system identifies and destroys any foreign cells. Unless Hagrid managed to cast an immune-suppression charm along with the transformation, the cells were still human. 3) Dudley's screaming in PS/SS and his reaction to the Weasleys in PoA leads me to believe that the transfiguration was painful. This would indicate that the nervous system in the tail, as it was being formed, was still capable of sending pain messages and therefore still human. I conclude that any porcine legacy left in Dudley during his formative years is purely psychosomatic. This is, of course, not to downplay or discredit thoughts and theories on how having a pig's tail, even for a short time, could affect a child's psyche." She signed the missive with a flourish and began grubbing about for a proper container. Successfully locating an old Arizona Tea bottle, stuffing the message into it, and sealing it with a kiss, she tossed it into the rolling waves. And so the bottle bobbed off into the rolling waves to seek its fortune. It floated for a year and a day until one day it bumped noisily against the prow of a great ship... Mundungus42, who is thrilled by biology on HP4GU From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Oct 22 23:57:49 2002 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:57:49 -0000 Subject: Animagi. - Never Unlikely Animals? In-Reply-To: <62171229375.20021020223454@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45684 It seems to me (from the Animagi in the books so far) > that its pre-determined, all the characters that are animagi share > significant character features with their human form.. For instance > the obvious parallels with Peter Pettigrew and rats, James Potter and > Stags (generally seen as great and noble animals), and various > others... Well, others have talked about the predetermination/character aspect of Animagi, so I'll skip that. What I thought about today was the fact that, of the Animagi we've seen, all fit rather neatly into their surroundings. Cat, rat, beetle, dog, stag. Why is this? Does a wizard's Animagus form not only reflect traits of the human, but must it also fit logically into the geographic area in which the wizard resides? Or is this another plot device? Think about it - it would be a little tough (but I think highly appropriate) for Rita Skeeter to be trotting around Hogwarts as a wart hog. And, Sirius can certainly wander about without attracting too much attention as a dog, even given the Grim connotations. But, how would he manage if his form was a kangaroo? Yes, I know wart hogs and kangaroos may seem slightly ridiculous. But what about a lion or a tiger or hyena or gorilla? For that matter, what about other magical creatures? Why not a dragon or a kelpie? Marianne, waiting for help from the magical zoologists out there From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Oct 23 00:45:04 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:45:04 -0000 Subject: FILK: Dark Defense Tutorial In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45685 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > Dark Defense Tutorial > A filk by Pippin I know, SysMods, we're not supposed to, but it's gala day when Pippin takes up her filking pen once more! > LOCKHART: > Oh I've a real talent when it comes to turning pixies loose > For dimly signing forged requests for students wanting polyjuice > And whilst I gladly act out all the scenes from my collected books > If you believe I did that stuff you really are a pair of schnooks. The whole thing is fabulous, and you earn extra house points for working in words like Abraxian and pogrebin. - CMC From SylverSongblade at aol.com Tue Oct 22 23:54:05 2002 From: SylverSongblade at aol.com (SylverSongblade at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:54:05 EDT Subject: Mundungus Fletcher? A baddie? Message-ID: <107.19ff637e.2ae73f1d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45686 Has anyone else caught this: CoS: The Burrow: "What a night," he (Arthur Weasley) mumbled, groping for the teapot... "Nine raids. Nine! And old Mundungus Fletcher tried to put a hex on me when I had my back turned..." GoF: Parting of the Ways: Dumbledore: "You are to alert Remus Lupin, Arabella Figg, Mundungus Fletcher - the old crowd." Upon my 3rd reading of CoS, I caught onto Mundungus (afterall, how forgetable is that name?) and wondered if it was another faint flub on JKR's part (ref. Priori Incantatem shade order) or if we should watch out for Mundungus in the future. ~ Sylvia T. Leung ~ ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v Wish?: an online manga: http://www.wish3.net Art Prints for Sale: http://www.ellenmilliongraphics.com/sylver/ ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brian042 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 23 01:27:06 2002 From: brian042 at hotmail.com (Brian) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 01:27:06 -0000 Subject: Mundungus Fletcher? A baddie? In-Reply-To: <107.19ff637e.2ae73f1d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45687 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., SylverSongblade at a... wrote: > Has anyone else caught this: > > CoS: The Burrow: > "What a night," he (Arthur Weasley) mumbled, groping for the teapot... "Nine > raids. Nine! And old Mundungus Fletcher tried to put a hex on me when I had > my back turned..." > > GoF: Parting of the Ways: > Dumbledore: "You are to alert Remus Lupin, Arabella Figg, Mundungus Fletcher > - the old crowd." > > Upon my 3rd reading of CoS, I caught onto Mundungus (afterall, how forgetable > is that name?) and wondered if it was another faint flub on JKR's part (ref. > Priori Incantatem shade order) or if we should watch out for Mundungus in the > future. > > ~ Sylvia T. Leung ~ Mundungus Fletcher also attempted the equivalent of insurance fraud in GoF, IIRC. bkb042 From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Wed Oct 23 01:32:05 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 02:32:05 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Let's blame Snape.... again and again! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021023014008.009e8bd0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45688 At 21:02 21/10/02 +0000, Fyre Wood wrote: >A constant trend I've noticed in the Potter series is that our >beloved Potions Master is always being blamed for harming Harry... >when in fact, he's doing the exact opposite! You're not the only one who'se noticed. The stories are written to make us understand that Harry sees Snape in that light, and thus for us to see him in that light, too. I would object to your use of the word "harm". Apart from the first book, by the end of which both Harry and we know very well that Snape tried to save him on at least two occasions when Harry assumed the opposite to be the case (after all, Snape was deliberately being set up as the red-herring baddie), Harry has never thought that Snape wished him deliberate *harm*. But the fact by the end, Snape is clearly shown to have helped to save Harry makes it ridiculous to argue that anyone, either the characters within the books, or readers, would consider the opposite to be the case later on. However, this does not mean that Snape *likes* Harry or that he wouldn't be happy if Harry were to get expelled. Indeed, there are frequent occasions on which Snape mistreats or otherwise belittles Harry, so Harry has every reason to dislike him, and perhaps even blame Snape for some of the nasty things that happen to him. Of course, MAGIC DISHWASHER claims that it's all a front, and that Snape actually wants nothing but the best for Harry and his obnoxious exterior is nothing but a very good act. Apart from the fact that I see nothing to be gained in the long run by such a ploy, there are plenty of reasons for Snape to dislike Harry (people have despised others for less) and few for Snape to like him. IOW, Snape might be basically honourable and takes his duties as a teacher very seriously indeed (which was his primary motivation for getting involved in the Shrieking Shack), but that doesn't make him a nice person, and it certainly doesn't mean that he has to be nice to Harry. Incidentally, I've looked and the closest reference to Harry's suspecting Snape of having put his name into the Goblet comes after Ron has put the idea into his head after the First Task (Ron's suggests that *Moody* thinks Snape did it). Even so, it's just a fleeting suspicion, tempered by the knowledge that Snape had saved him during his first year. Even if he did suspect Snape, he'd be forgiven for doing so. When the Champions are selected, Snape's "black eyes were alight with malice". Oh, and at the end of the "swapping suspicions" scene, Harry phrases the thought which has been the subject of much debate in fandom: "I just want to know what Snape did with his first chance, if he's on his second one". :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, desperately trying to catch up after two days away and getting nowhere with completing his contribution to the Class debate... From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Wed Oct 23 01:31:54 2002 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 01:31:54 -0000 Subject: Swords: Broad or Dainty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45689 --- In HPforGrownups, "Grey Wolf" wrote: > First, I should place the situation. We're around the year 1000, > more or less (not even Binns know for sure, but it gives a > figure to work with). Now, this is the very start of middle > ages. Barbarism rules almost all Europe (except for Iberian > peninsula, but I'm not going into that), and most of what the > romans had advanced has been forgotten -except, presumably, > the art of war. Smiths aren't really all that advanced; it is > interesting that swords got bigger as time passed: in ancient > times, swords were short, not those impresive bastard, broad > and double grip swords we always picture middle ages knights in. [snip] > Which means that at the time of Godric no-one had thought of > those sort of swords yet. The sort of sword you'd get is the > one you'd expect a roman to use: a short, broad bladed, iron or > steel sword. [snip] You're forgetting the Vikings - they had fairly longs swords (Viking longswords have been found in archeological digs in Norway), and certainly considerably longer swords than the Roman /gladius/. http://www.vikingsword.com/ indicates that blade-length of the typical Viking-swords were typically just under a yard, and they grew longer into the Norman age. These were one-handed swords, since warriors in thsoe days ad a tendency to carry shields as well. > For one thing, it's the sort of sword a 12-year-old could > find heavy, but still use with certain degree of aptitude: I > have real broadswords in my house, and I know that when I was > 12 I had difficulty to lift them, so that trying to wave it > around meant that I orbited around the sword almost more than > the sword orbited around me. A charm to lighten the sword might perhaps be the thing? > To cut this short, I think that historical evidence, as well as > inter-textual evidence, would suggest a sensible roman or > roman-esque sword (maybe somewhat improved from the basic design), but not the sort of sword you'd expect from Ivanhoe or Wallace - those came around later. Actually, I believe Ivanhoe would have stuck to a singlehanded sword - as far as I recall that novel is set in a time when shields were still common among knights, meaning that swords had to be amde easily wieldable by one hand. > A short sword (maybe coated in magic? after seing an enchated > car, a magic sword sholdn't raise any blisters) that a skinny > and small 12 year-old could use. As I say, I might have gotten > the timing wrong (meaning that longswords already existed at > the time), but I still believe -now that I have actually > thought rationally through it- that a short sword would make > more sense. I do not. I think that swords much shorter than a yard or so, were rather uncommon at the time around 1000AD - my bet lays with a standard one-hand sword of roughly one yard length. Best regards Christian Stub? From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 23 02:02:29 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 02:02:29 -0000 Subject: Mundungus Fletcher? A baddie? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45690 Sylvia noticed: >>CoS: The Burrow: "What a night," he (Arthur Weasley) mumbled, groping for the teapot... "Nine raids. Nine! And old Mundungus Fletcher tried to put a hex on me when I had my back turned..."<< >>GoF: Parting of the Ways: Dumbledore: "You are to alert Remus Lupin, Arabella Figg, Mundungus Fletcher - the old crowd."<< Then Brian added: >>Mundungus Fletcher also attempted the equivalent of insurance fraud in GoF, IIRC.<< Well given that Dumbledore has a werewolf, ex-death eater, and convicted murderer as part of the group, I think we can assume Dumbledore chooses his people based on their skill and loyalty rather than what they have accomplished in the past. Fletcher might not have the greatest morals, but that does not mean that he would not see the benefits of destroying pure evil. I think he would be a pretty interesting contrast to Dumbledore's noble persona. Of course, Fletcher is old, so maybe he is going a bit senile. A grumpy old man who doesn't like to be raided or woken up from his sleep...no matter the reason. Melody From chynarose8 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 23 02:12:53 2002 From: chynarose8 at hotmail.com (Michelle Stauss) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:12:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Swords: Broad or Dainty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000c01c27a39$b19a5000$72150494@Navi> No: HPFGUIDX 45691 Melody recently asked: Ok my point, what kind of sword would this be? In the previews of the MTMNBM part II, we see Harry thrusting about a Musketeer-esque sword. Very pretty, very honorable, but this type of sword did not come around till the 16th - 17th century, right? Wouldn't Godric have a William Wallace type sword...a broad sword? it does not have to be as big as Wallace's, I mean a normal 12 year old boy could not wield that size of a sword and Harry obviously was able to maneuver this one about a bit, but it would be substantially bigger, right? So, any swords experts out there? I confess to know a little. I think I have a coloring book about swords somewhere. :) I may not be an expert on swords, but I think I'll take a stab at it anyway. I don't think it could have been a broad sword. Even a small one would be considerably big, as they were two handed swords. And if I remember my cannon right (my copy of CoS's at home; not my dorm), Harry weilds Gordic's sword with one hand (at least at the begining of the fight). Now, I don't know how strong Harry is, but I doubt he can swing a sword intended for a trained knight to use with both hands one handed. A short or bastard sword would be more realistic (to me at any rate. But then I'm neither a swords expert nor a dark age historian). Personally, I'm banking on a short sword. I know from personal experiance that they aren't that heavy as swords go. Heck, mine only weighs about ten pounds. Chyna Rose, who's drooling over the sword catagory on EBay when she should be doing a paper for class. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Wed Oct 23 02:40:22 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 03:40:22 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's warning to Lily In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021023031559.0096d560@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45692 At 04:50 20/10/02 +0000, Becky wrote: >There's also a statement by Hagrid made in PS/SS that seems to be >slightly puzzling if you think of LV as a complete psycho murderer. >He says: "An then - an' this is the real myst'ry of the thing - he >tried to kill you, too. Wanted to make a clean job of it, I suppose, >or maybe he just liked killin' by then." Whilst I agree with you that Voldemort isn't entirely psychopathic, he doesn't value other people's lives very highly. I wouldn't describe Voldemort as getting any kind of pleasure out of killing people, and I might even go as far as to say that he probably doesn't actually relish the thought of murdering. The issue is that he simply thinks nothing of removing obstacles by way of murder. For him, it is, I suppose, a "necessary evil" rather than an act which gives him any huge rush in itself. Voldemort is far from stupid. What's the point of being an Evil Overlord if there's nobody to lord over because he's killed them all? So it is in that context in which I personally set his willingness to spare Lily against "kill the spare": killing people is not his first instinct, but asking them to stand aside while he murders someone else isn't either. He kills when it's "necessary", and he should have realised that killing Lily *was* "necessary" to get at Harry. Or, to turn the issue around, if he was willing to spare Lily, why was he not prepared to let Cedric live? All of the above is incidental to why I started this post anyway. :-) There's something else in that quote which has always intrigued me: "make a clean job of it": a clean job of *what*, exactly? The only thing which springs to my mind (and this is *far* from an original thought; it's expressed here on almost a daily basis, in some form or another) :-) is "killing anyone in the Potter line". I can't see any category which would fit Voldemort's willingness to spare Lily yet not Harry, to spare other babies yet not Harry. Furthermore (and this is just a thought, not really leading to any conclusion), the quote indicates that Hagrid was not aware that Voldemort was going specifically for Harry. Whilst we don't yet know for a fact that Harry was a specific target, it's heavily implied. Yet after all that time working for Dumbledore, Hagrid doesn't know that, as he considers Voldemort's attack on Harry to be an afterthought, "to make a clean job of it"... -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who is still trying to catch up, and would be grateful if nobody would post anything for the next couple of days at least. :-) From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 23 03:04:12 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 03:04:12 -0000 Subject: TBAY - Winky and Crouch Sr. - Very Nasty and Twisted Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45693 "Nasty and twisted," said Cindy. "Does sound like you, I must admit." "I didn't mean it to be nasty and twisted," said Eileen. "I was going to write a perfectly ordinary post about Crouch family dynamics, when things began to fall into place a little too well." "As I said, sounds like you," said Cindy. "So, what do you have for us today." "Have we ever talked about Mrs. Crouch on the list?" "Yes, I believe Pip suggested she was a Death Eater," said Cindy. "That made even Elkins blanche. Other than that, there was that misunderstanding of whether "Mrs. Crouch did her son." Eileen shudders. "That was a typo. We may be twisted, but we're not that twisted. But other than that, there's been nothing?" "Nothing I know of." "Well, I have a Mrs. Crouch theory for you. It evolved from my trying to figure out why I dislike Mrs. Crouch." "You dislike Mrs. Crouch?" asked Cindy unbelievingly. "I thought you worshiped the Crouches. Sort of like the Sugar Quill and the Weasleys." "Well, I don't like Mrs. Crouch. Do you really think that breaking Barty Jr. out of Azkaban was a good idea?" "It's supposed to be sympathetic!" said Cindy. "Besides you like her husband's part in that story." "Because it's tragic irony. I said that he never let love define his relationships. But I was wrong. Just this one time, he did. And look where that got him. Now, Mrs. Crouch on the other hand. Let's just say I don't like dying characters who impose last commands on their loved ones." "She wanted to save her son!" cries Cindy. "Have you no heart, woman?" "A bleeding one, I think. Now, could it be that I dislike her because she is bland and uninteresting? Not really. I don't have feelings of intense antagonism towards Professor McGonagall or any other of the bland female characters that litter the series. I think my problem is that she put unbearable pressure on her husband to do something that was totally wrong. I can't forgive her that. Crouch Sr. made all his other horrible mistakes of his own volition, but she forced him into that one... in the name of love. It sickens me somehow, even if she was brave to die in Azkaban like that, and did sacrifice herself for her son. But here comes the disturbing part..." "I was waiting for that," said Cindy. "She dies but she doesn't leave the story. The entire Crouch Sr./Mrs. Crouch dynamic is recreated between Crouch Sr. and Winky." "EWWWWW!" said Cindy. "What are you suggesting here?" She looks at Eileen like a lunatic escaped from St. Mungo's. "Nothing indecent. I am not going to suggest that... errr... there was something going on between the elder Crouch and Winky. But minus that, the entire dynamic is exactly the same. Let's start with Mrs. Crouch's one appearance. What do we get from that?" "That she's "whispy" and quite upset about Barty being sent to Azkaban, and her husband disowning him." "True. She spends her entire time sobbing and rocking back and forth. What does that remind you of?" "Eileen!" "Answer me. Was I the only person who saw Mrs. Crouch as being described in the terms used for Winky throughout the entire book?" "That may be an accident," said Cindy. "Perhaps. Perhaps it is. But now we need to look at Winky. When Mrs. Crouch dies, she just takes over her role, doesn't she? Batting down Crouch Sr.'s objections to taking his son to the QWC. She throws his wife's memory in his face, doesn't she? It's pretty obvious that, despite Hermione's sizing up of the situation, Winky has Crouch Sr. under her thumb until the QWC. By appealing to his love for his wife. Oh, she's doing exactly the same thing Mrs. Crouch did to him, she is." "Errr... right," said Cindy. "What next?" "Has it ever occurred to you how often people tend to describe Winky and Crouch Sr.'s relationship in terms of a marriage? I brought up the "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion" parallel. Lurking about HP sites, I've seen several people refer to Winky as like a battered wife. "She seems to love him," says Ron, and that line always squicks out people b/c they immediately imagine you-know-what. I think I know why. In her relationship with Barty Jr., Winky also seems to be like Mrs. Crouch. She loves him and wants to let him off the hook, believes the best of him, even though she knows he wants to serve Voldemort." "He dismissed Winky in the end." "Oh yes he did! And what does that suggest about the Crouch family dynamic now? Doesn't it suggest that in some way he was dismissing the shadow of his wife? He didn't let go of Winky b/c she embarassed him. He let go of her b/c she endangered him. Just as his wife endangered him. The two: Winky and Mrs. Crouch, pretty much killed him in the end. So, yes, I think he was banishing his wife in some way when he let go of Winky. Not so pleasant." "And the very end?" asked Cindy fearfully. "I find the very end extremely interesting," says Eileen with a small grin. "An end in which Winky is forced to recognize that Barty was out and out bad. Mrs. Crouch didn't live to do it, but Winky does it for her." "Eileen, you are disturbing." "I know." Eileen From awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu Wed Oct 23 04:53:02 2002 From: awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:53:02 -0700 Subject: Arabella Figg as Secret Keeper (or, rather, not) References: <1035342269.10579.12128.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000b01c27a50$12147c60$16d2df80@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 45694 > Sally says: > OTOH, it's possible that something along the lines of a Fidelius > Charm could have been put to use, in which case she wouldn't need any > special skill to keep him safe, just the ability to keep a secret. > > But supposing the former is the case, then she would be an obvious > candidate for the new appointment of DADA teacher. And as LV is once > more on the loose, it also makes sense that AF will be protecting HP > at school as well as at home, now that the LV-danger-factor has > increased. I am really curious about Figg. I mean, there must be something that Dumbledore was worried about re: Harry, if he had her move over to Privet Drive to watch over him. And, especially considering he's had her live there for 13 years- so he was afraid that someone would come after him, eventually. And I wonder who else knows that this has taken place (Figg's watchful eye over Harry)- since no one else in the WW, with the exception of Dumbledore, has really paid any mind to where Harry disappeared to all those years ago (though it makes me wonder- since he's in all the history books, of course people knew he'd gone to stay with relatives. I mean, wouldn't people wonder why no one ever met HP before in the WW or anything?) So Figg has either disappeared for over a decade as well, or she moves more freely between the muggle and wizarding worlds. And while before I never really was one of those who believed she'd undergone a little bit of transfiguration to appear older, I now wonder if she has- I am not at all familiar with the geography of England, or how large the town is supposed to be, but if someone happened to see her shopping one day or something, wouldn't they perhaps put 2+2 together (especially someone like Lucius)? Anyway, that was way off from where I had intended to start this post. I was going to talk about the Fidelus Charm. Several people think that Arabella is Harry's secret-keeper. The only problem I find is this: If Harry were being protected under the Fidelus charm, would he not be protected at Hogwarts as well, provided she knew he was there (I'm kind of assuming that the SK must know where the person was, otherwise the spell wouldn't seem to make much sense- why not just make whoever your SK and then just take off somewhere, so that *no one* would know where you were?) Anyway, if she was the SK, I don't think it would matter if Harry was at The Burrow all summer or not- the DE's and Voldemort still wouldn't know where he was. And so it gets a little hairy (pardon the pun)- is there another form of the Fidelus? Or some similar charm? I mean, he's at Hogwarts and obviously other people can see him there, so any one of them could tell their parents they went to school with Harry and everyone would know. (because doesn't the Fidelus, in effect, make people invisible to all except their SK?) I don't know, my thoughts are not as clear as I'd like because I'm tired. So I hope and pray that this makes at least a *tiny* bit of sense. I guess, in essence, I feel that the Fidelus can't be what's protecting Harry, because he's in *everyone's* plain sight, except, apparently, when he's at home. And it seems that by definition of the Fidelus that you'd be cloaked at all times until your SK decided to divulge where you were. Maybe that makes more sense! Aesha From meckelburg at foni.net Wed Oct 23 09:18:21 2002 From: meckelburg at foni.net (Mecki) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:18:21 -0000 Subject: Crouch turned into a bone ( oh no, can't she stop it?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45695 Hi, I've been lurking for a few months now (not much time plus waiting for OoP), but I thought I'd try and post my absolute favorite theory again. After all, I haven't reintroduced this theory for nearly a year now and there are bout 1500+ new members since then, who I haven't bothered with it yet :) When I read GoF the third or fourth time, I noticed Crouch/Moody had turned his dead father into a BONE and buried him. Voldemort used *his* fathers bone to get his body back. Maybe Crouch sr. as a bone is a little hint from JKR as to what Voldemort can do about Barty's soul??- After all, Barty is not dead, Voldemort wasn't dead either. Voldie had a soul, but his body was gone, Barty has a body, but his soul is gone.- Could the same, or a similar spell that helped V. work on him? Just wondering, JKR is famous for those "little things " that turn big in future books - now go ahead and tear the theory apart, that's what I'm here for. And, would someone please give me an Acronym for my "Bartys soul is saved by his father's bone"- theory?My english is not good enough. Thanks Mecki From gandharvika at hotmail.com Wed Oct 23 10:38:50 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:38:50 +0000 Subject: (FILK) I've Got To Throw This Book Away Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45696 I've Got TO Throw This Book Away (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _You've Got To Hide Your Love Away_ by the Beatles) Listen to it here: http://deedee.pcsos.com/Beatles.htm Ginny Weasley: Here I stand, book in hand Tom Riddle's diary Riddle he wrote to me But I was deceived Everywhere students scared 'Cause of Slytherin's heir I suspect, now I reject And I must declare Hey, I've got to throw this book away Hey, I've got to throw this book away Can't believe I was naive Tom controlling me Opened the Chamber of Secrets, now I see So much fear from this book here Everyone's at threat Have a thought, I just ought To throw it in the toilet Hey, I've got to throw this book away Hey, I've got to throw this book away -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls!Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Oct 23 14:17:04 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:17:04 -0000 Subject: Swords: Broad or Dainty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45698 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > As I was watching to previews of the upcoming Potter event that must > not be named, I began to wonder... > > What kind of sword would an 11th century knight carry and generally > have in his possession? > A sword made of silver and ornamented with rubies would be a ceremonial sword, made to be worn or carried in procession as a symbol of authority. Since they weren't meant to be used in battle, they can be either much lighter or much heavier than a common sword of the same design. There are many examples of these in the treasure houses of Europe, some of them as fanciful as anything a prop designer or a novelist could dream up. The Hapsburg emperors had one with a hilt and scabbard of narwhal tusk (unicorn horn.) Rowling may have been thinking of the silver gilt Scottish sword of state, which dates from 1507 and is on display in Edinburgh Castle. It's about 4 and a half feet long. No rubies, but you could imagine them easily at the pommel and on the ends of the curved guard. Here's a picture http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page451.asp Pippin not a sword expert, but studied them as an art student From msbonsai at mninter.net Wed Oct 23 13:53:38 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:53:38 -0000 Subject: Arabella Figg as Secret Keeper (or, rather, not) In-Reply-To: <000b01c27a50$12147c60$16d2df80@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45699 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Aesha Williams" wrote: Anyway, if she was > the SK, I don't think it would matter if Harry was at The Burrow all summer > or not- the DE's and Voldemort still wouldn't know where he was. And so it > gets a little hairy (pardon the pun)- is there another form of the Fidelus? > Or some similar charm? I mean, he's at Hogwarts and obviously other people > can see him there, so any one of them could tell their parents they went to > school with Harry and everyone would know. (because doesn't the Fidelus, in > effect, make people invisible to all except their SK?) > > Aesha snipped to the core :o) I'm sorry if I don't make total sense today, as I have the flu. But I wanted to point out that several wizards already knew where Harry was, bowed to him in shops, could have followed Harry home. Harry mentions this in year 1. He even recognizes one of them when he meets him again at the pub with Hagrid. So as to Harry being hidden all those years, I just don't think so. Not unless for some reason as you get near the Dursley's it becomes a non-existant place. Julie From tarlia at pd.jaring.my Wed Oct 23 14:04:11 2002 From: tarlia at pd.jaring.my (Georgette Tan) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 22:04:11 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Animagi. - Never Unlikely Animals? References: Message-ID: <3DB6AC5B.E029C720@pd.jaring.my> No: HPFGUIDX 45700 Hi. I'm new and still wading through the recent couple of weeks mail. Please don't eat me. ;-) > Well, others have talked about the predetermination/character aspect > of Animagi, so I'll skip that. What I thought about today was the > fact that, of the Animagi we've seen, all fit rather neatly into > their surroundings. Cat, rat, beetle, dog, stag. Why is this? Does > a wizard's Animagus form not only reflect traits of the human, but > must it also fit logically into the geographic area in which the > wizard resides? I'm trying to remember if the books mentioned wizards being able to choose their animal forms... or if it gets predetermined based on their character. If they get to choose, I'm pretty sure James, Sirius and Peter would pick creatures that are native, or at least, inconspicuous where they intend to do most of their roaming. As for Rita Skeeter, she should have been a mosquito but they don't tend to live long and you can't appreciate little spectacle markings on a squashed insect. If she "decided" to be an animagus, she'd pick something that gives her an edge in her job, which would mainly be spying on people. She was ambitious enough (or blinded by ambition) to risk being a beetle, allowing her to do her eavesdropping and us to enjoy all the bug references. See how easily Hermione caught her when she realised how Rita's been getting all the inside news? Rita's case more or less convinced me that they get to choose their form. If they don't, and she just happened to be a beetle, it feels too convenient (plot-wise) to me. -- Georgette Tan (Tarlia) Quarterly Editor, Woodworks Woodworks - The Elfwood Community eZine The eZine :: http://www.xercix.com/woodworks The Forum :: http://forums.dark-phantasy.com/ww From msbonsai at mninter.net Wed Oct 23 14:16:31 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:16:31 -0000 Subject: I want to know if you think I have this right :o) Professor Quirrell Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45701 Professor Quirrell and the handshake in the pub. Ok, so if I have this right . . . The reason that Professor Quirrell did not "burn up" when shaking Harry's hand in the pub is: He was not yet sharing his body with Voldemort. Reasons I deem this to be true: 1. He shakes his hand in the pub, same day as the volt is emptied, but this is before it's emptied by Hagrid, also same day as break in. SS. p 70 2. When he gets to school, there is specific mention made that Quirrell is sporting a new turban. Sounds like he never wore one before, and there's suspicion that he's wearing garlic under it because it smells so bad. (Decaying Voldemort?) SS p 122 "Harry spotted Professor Quirrell, too, the nervous young man from the Leaky Cauldron. He was looking very peculiar in a large purple turban." 3. First night at school, SS p 126. As Professor Quirrell turns his head to look at Professor Snape, and Professor Snape is looking past that turban to look at Harry, that's when the shooting pain which warns Harry that Voldemort or mortal danger is near occurs. I think this is because Professor Quirrell is facing away from Harry, and Voldie can see him through the turban. 4. The incident where Harry hears Professor Quirrell complaining that he doesn't want to do something, and Harry believes he's talking to Professor Snape. Harry looks into the room, and sees a door open at the other end of the room, but said he vowed not meddle in things where weren't his affairs again. SS p 246. 5. When he's in the forest, it's a man under the cloak drinking the unicorns blood, not a weird figure. (mistake in the movie, but we won't discuss that here ;o) ) SS p 256. 6. This last scene is of course made clear by Quirrell in front of the mirror of Erised. First SS p 290 Quirrell explains Harry's hearing him in the room. That it's sometimes hard to follow his master's instructions. 7. SS p 291 Quirrell explains that Voldemort was mad at him for failing to retrieve the stone from Gringotts, so he is keeping a closer watch on Quirrell. 8. SS p 293 Voldemort speaking "Unicorn blood has strengthened me, these past weeks . . . you saw faithful Quirrell drinking it for me in the forest . . ." So it was Quirrell who drank the blood. So does any of this make sense, am I on the right track? Or has the flu bug gone to my brain? Julie From dileas at rogers.com Wed Oct 23 14:25:34 2002 From: dileas at rogers.com (mmgardin) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:25:34 -0000 Subject: What's in a Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45702 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pickle_jimmy" wrote: Also Arthur Weasley - We Salute Harry Cheers, Marcia From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Wed Oct 23 15:42:23 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:42:23 +0100 Subject: Catching up: Lestrange's child?/ Robes In-Reply-To: <00d301c278a9$733a4540$899fcdd1@istu757> References: <4.2.0.58.20021021015301.00aa8340@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021023160332.00975190@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45703 At 21:27 20/10/02 -0500, Richelle Votaw wrote: >But do we have any canon at all that the Lestranges are indeed Harry's >parents age? If they were even a year older they could easily have a child >Krum's age. We are, I'm sure, to assume they were part of Snape's gang of >Slytherins as well, but surely all of them couldn't have been in the same >year? Some must've been at least a year or two older. I'm not insisting that they are - indeed,we know next to nothing about the Lestranges. I honestly had never thought about whether or not they may have had kids; it was just the suggestion that they could be of the same generation as MWPP, Snape etc (which isn't exactly a huge leap; a lot about the "current" Hogwarts generation appears to be paralleling their parents) which got me to connecting them to the equally mysterious past of my favourite shadowy Gryffindor. :-) I'm a million miles away from creating any kind of consistent theory about Dean, and in particular, I can't make my mind up about whether he's ultimately going to end up being a "goodie". The fact that all of Harry's Gryffindor year are currently perceived as such (and the fact that Dean has less of a role to date than of the other boys) makes me suspect that there could be something in suggesting that he could turn bad. But on the other hand, if he's the Lestranges' child, it would make his badness hereditary, which is something JKR shies away from (except for Slytherins). > > Boys' and girls' uniforms are different in TMTSNBN. The girls wear skirts. > > Even when in mufti, Hermione's costumes were always dresses or skirts. Are > > trousers for girls outlawed at Hogwarts, in accordance with the other > > old-fashioned attitudes of the WW? ;-) > >But the robes would still be the same, regardless of what went under them. >Does Ginny have a hand me down robe or a second hand one? Or do we know >for certain? I think you're confusing "robes" and "cloaks". The first year requirements list makes a distinction, and the cloak/cape is the only element of the uniform which both MTSNBNs have kept, replacing the robes with a tasteful standard British school uniform, which gets on my nerves something rotten. Oh, and on that topic, apart from Dumbledore, all the male teachers wear trousers and jackets (in some cases, capes) rather than robes. The distinction has also been lost to the books' cover illustrators, all of which imagine Harry & Co in modern kids' clothing with nothing but a cloak to indicate a hint of Hogwarts. The way I imagine the intended look is something akin to the French cover illustrations (the only ones I've seen which actually put the kids in *robes*, and not just cloaks). Whether or not anything other than underwear is worn beneath the robes is worthy of debate, although Archie at the QWC likes a "breeze around his privates" and thus presumably wears nothing at all. The fact that he considers a (Muggle) women's night-dress as appropriate attire indicates to me just what wizarding expectations are like. -- GulPlum aka Richard, who's got a real bee in his bonnet about Hogwarts uniforms... From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Wed Oct 23 15:51:03 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:51:03 +0100 Subject: Crouch turned into a bone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021023164438.00989970@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45704 At 09:18 23/10/02 +0000, Mecki wrote: >When I read GoF the third or fourth time, I noticed Crouch/Moody had >turned his dead father into a BONE and buried him. >Voldemort used *his* fathers bone to get his body back. Maybe Crouch >sr. as a bone is a little hint from JKR as to what Voldemort can do >about Barty's soul??- After all, Barty is not dead, Voldemort wasn't >dead either. Voldie had a soul, but his body was gone, Barty has a >body, but his soul is gone.- Could the same, or a similar spell that >helped V. work on him? I don't really see it. As you say, Barty Jr's bones are "available" but his soul isn't, so in what way could his father's soul-less bone be of any use? What Barty Jr needs is spare "spiritual stuff", not spare "body stuff". Personally, the mental connection I make is between buried bones and dogs. Hmmm... do we know any big black dogs in the Potterverse? :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who can't think of a relevant amusing tag line. :-) From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 23 16:13:44 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:13:44 -0000 Subject: Crouch turned into a bone In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021023164438.00989970@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45705 Mecki wrote: >>When I read GoF the third or fourth time, I noticed Crouch/Moody had turned his dead father into a BONE and buried him. Voldemort used *his* fathers bone to get his body back. Maybe Crouch sr. as a bone is a little hint from JKR as to what Voldemort can do about Barty's soul??<< GulPlum added: >>I don't really see it. As you say, Barty Jr's bones are "available" but his soul isn't, so in what way could his father's soul-less bone be of any use? What Barty Jr needs is spare "spiritual stuff", not spare "body stuff". Personally, the mental connection I make is between buried bones and dogs.<< So I write: I always assumed that Barty Jr. transfigured his father in the first place because if someone was digging in the garden, like someone is likely to do, and they can across a bone, they would not think twice. Just toss it aside and let Fang chew on it. (Poor Crouch Sr.) Now, if they came across the dead body of Crouch Sr., then sirens would sound. They would know there is foul play afoot. I don't think this could affect your theory Mecki since either way, Crouch Jr. has the bones of his father if such a potion exists. Though as GulPlum said, it is his soul, the essence of a person, that is removed. Making a body is one thing. Making a soul is entirely another. But what am I say. This is magic. But can magic create a soul? Melody From daniel.brent at cwctv.net Wed Oct 23 15:49:11 2002 From: daniel.brent at cwctv.net (evenflow200214) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:49:11 -0000 Subject: re Mundgunus Fletcher - A baddie Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45706 I don't think Fletcher is bad. He's probably an eccentric type like Dumbledore who's a little dodgy with it. One of those guys who doesn't break the law but likes to give it a little nudge... Dumbledore seems to trust him and he is part of the old crowd so I would doubt that he is in anyway working for Voldemort and I hope his character is developed more in Book 5 Daniel From wpfositpoi at yahoo.com Wed Oct 23 16:25:56 2002 From: wpfositpoi at yahoo.com (wpfositpoi) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:25:56 -0000 Subject: I want to know if you think I have this right :o) Professor Quirrell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45707 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" wrote: > Professor Quirrell and the handshake in the pub. > > Ok, so if I have this right . . . > > The reason that Professor Quirrell did not "burn up" when shaking > Harry's hand in the pub is: He was not yet sharing his body with > Voldemort. > I think you're on the right track. Check out the graveyard scene in Goblet of Fire. I'm pretty sure Voldemort explains to Harry how and when he met up with Quirrell on those pages. "wpfositpoi" From robgonz0 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 23 17:26:27 2002 From: robgonz0 at yahoo.com (Robert Gonzalez) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:26:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Swords: Broad or Dainty References: Message-ID: <004601c27ab9$522cc780$18fea8c0@WorkGroup> No: HPFGUIDX 45708 "Melody" wrote: > > As I was watching to previews of the upcoming Potter event > that must > > not be named, I began to wonder... > > > > What kind of sword would an 11th century knight carry and > generally > > have in his possession? > > > From: "pippin_999" > A sword made of silver and ornamented with rubies would be a > ceremonial sword, made to be worn or carried in procession as > a symbol of authority. Since they weren't meant to be used in > battle, they can be either much lighter or much heavier than a > common sword of the same design. Me: I would agree. I was thinking this but didn't have time to reply last night. What is shown in the previews of TMTMNBN and what I thought of as I read the description in the book reminds me of a Masonic ceremonial sword. GreyWolf wrote: >The sort of sword you'd get is the one you'd expect a >roman to use: a short, broad bladed, iron or steel sword. At first I >thought I could play the "wizards are advanced" card, but wizards >wouldn't be proficient in armoury tech - more the reverse, actually. me: Following this logic the wizards would not have been as advanced in stonework or architecture either making it difficult to concieve of them building a castle as elaborate as Hogwarts. Rob From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Wed Oct 23 17:58:50 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:58:50 -0000 Subject: Why bother to have a sword?! (Re: Swords: Broad or Dainty) In-Reply-To: <004601c27ab9$522cc780$18fea8c0@WorkGroup> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45709 Robert Gonzalez posted: > "Melody" wrote: > > > As I was watching to previews of the upcoming Potter event > > that must > > > not be named, I began to wonder... > > > > > > What kind of sword would an 11th century knight carry and > > generally > > > have in his possession? > > > > > From: "pippin_999" > > A sword made of silver and ornamented with rubies would be a > > ceremonial sword, made to be worn or carried in procession as > > a symbol of authority. Since they weren't meant to be used in > > battle, they can be either much lighter or much heavier than a > > common sword of the same design. > > Me: > I would agree. I was thinking this but didn't have time to reply last night. > What is shown in the previews of TMTMNBN and what I thought of as I read > the description in the book reminds me of a Masonic ceremonial sword. > > GreyWolf wrote: > >The sort of sword you'd get is the one you'd expect a > >roman to use: a short, broad bladed, iron or steel sword. At first I > >thought I could play the "wizards are advanced" card, but wizards > >wouldn't be proficient in armoury tech - more the reverse, actually. > > me: > Following this logic the wizards would not have been as advanced in > stonework or architecture either making it difficult to concieve of them > building a castle as elaborate as Hogwarts. > > Rob Fyre Wood (me) Replies: For me to hear that a wizard has a sword is sort of odd. I thought that wands were the only tool needed in the wizarding world. If Gryffindor was so talented, why did he need a sword? Wouldn't a spell work better and be less bloody? --Fyre Wood, who is once again causing trouble =) From ronib at mindspring.com Wed Oct 23 18:03:04 2002 From: ronib at mindspring.com (Veronica) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:03:04 -0000 Subject: Why bother to have a sword?! (Re: Swords: Broad or Dainty) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45710 > Fyre Wood (me) Replies: > For me to hear that a wizard has a sword is sort of odd. I thought > that wands were the only tool needed in the wizarding world. If > Gryffindor was so talented, why did he need a sword? Wouldn't a spell > work better and be less bloody? Veronica replies: Yes, for fighting, a wand would be much better. However, I can't imagine that GG actually fought much with a sword described as so ornate (rubies the size of eggs, was it?). Perhaps it was only used for ceremonial purposes. Perhaps wizards even have something like the knighthood in the old movies where the king touches the knight on each soldier with the flat of the blade. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Oct 23 18:19:27 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:19:27 -0000 Subject: Why bother to have a sword?! (Re: Swords: Broad or Dainty) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45711 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: > For me to hear that a wizard has a sword is sort of odd. I thought that wands were the only tool needed in the wizarding world. If Gryffindor was so talented, why did he need a sword? Wouldn't a spell work better and be less bloody? > Many of the dangerous critters in FBAWTFT are listed as magic resistant. Look how many wizards it took to stun the dragons in GoF. Also, a jewelled sword asserts wealth, power and nobility to wizard and Muggle alike, as a wand would not. In Godric's day, the wizards and Muggle worlds were not completely separated. Wizards might have used swords in situations where they needed to defend themselves without revealing magic, although a jewelled sword like Gryffindor's was obviously not meant for that. Pippin From mundungus42 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 23 18:24:13 2002 From: mundungus42 at yahoo.com (Her Ladyship) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:24:13 -0000 Subject: Swords: Broad or Dainty In-Reply-To: <004601c27ab9$522cc780$18fea8c0@WorkGroup> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45712 > (Melody)I mean a normal 12 year old boy could not wield that size >of a sword. This would be true of William Wallace's two-handed broadsword (technically not a Claymore), but I don't think a 12-year old boy would have any problem wielding a Viking-style blade. They were one- handed weapons that were fullered (grooved) to make them lighter and more maneuverable. Swords with this simple, short-gripped design were common for nobles in the 10th and 11th centuries, though the cost of metal and smithing put them out of reach for most commoners. > (GreyWolf) IMO, it's the sort of sword you'd expect from a rich roman family, well >preserved over the years. For one thing, it's the sort of sword a 12-year-old could find >heavy, but still use with certain degree of aptitude: While it's true that the sword could have been influenced by the Romans, short swords of this kind were not common, especially not among the wealthy. And, IMO, having such lavish decorations on a dinky little short sword would be akin to putting custom wheels, hydraulics, and a huge rear spoiler on a 1985 Subaru. The most interesting aspect of the Gryffindor sword for me is the lavishly (cabochon?) jeweled handle, which speaks of a Byzantine influence. The gems in combination with the engraving (not uncommon in itself), lead me to believe that the sword was used in ceremonies, which would make sense for a magical military leader (nods to Pippin and "why bother with a sword" thread), but metal was scarce enough that purely ornamental swords did not really exist. Besides, Beowulf supposedly slew Grendel with a jeweled sword, and rubies were harder than many types of metal available at the time. :) Incidentally, the illustration of the sword in the American books gave the sword a curved blade like a scimitar or tachi, but getting into non-European cultures is another kettle of fish entirely though I'd love to hear an argument for it! Still, a jeweled handle would give me awful blisters in any kind of sustained fight unless the decoration were limited to the pommel. I'm such a softy! Mun42 Former Fencing Coach From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Oct 23 18:41:29 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:41:29 -0000 Subject: Animagi. - Never Unlikely Animals? In-Reply-To: <3DB6AC5B.E029C720@pd.jaring.my> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45713 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Georgette Tan wrote: > I'm trying to remember if the books mentioned wizards being able to choose their animal forms... or if it gets > predetermined based on their character. If they get to choose, I'm pretty sure James, Sirius and Peter would pick > creatures that are native, or at least, inconspicuous where they intend to do most of their roaming. > > As for Rita Skeeter, she should have been a mosquito but they don't tend to live long and you can't appreciate > little spectacle markings on a squashed insect. > Rita's case more or less convinced me that they get to choose their form. If they don't, and she just happened to > be a beetle, it feels too convenient (plot-wise) to me. > I tend to disagree. After all, Rita Skeeter is a living beetle, always buzzing around, to get informations, so I it is no wonder, that this is her animagus form. Mosquitos don't live very long, but neither did beetles, and I can't help but imagine sometime, what would have happened, if a hungry bird had spotted her. And although Peter is evil, and I can't imagine that he choosed to be a rat. I mean, who would? There are other smale characters who can open, even Crookshanks was small enough to do so. Hickengruendler From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Oct 23 20:03:20 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:03:20 -0000 Subject: Why bother to have a sword?! (Re: Swords: Broad or Dainty) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45714 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: > > Fyre Wood (me) Replies: > For me to hear that a wizard has a sword is sort of odd. I thought > that wands were the only tool needed in the wizarding world. If > Gryffindor was so talented, why did he need a sword? Wouldn't a spell > work better and be less bloody? > > --Fyre Wood, who is once again causing trouble =) bboy_mn replies with the utmost respect: Huuummmm...... You founf it odd that Godric Gryffindor would have a sword, but you didn't find (or at least comment) it odd the Grey Wolf, who lives in the 21st Century, has his own broad sword. Quote Grey Wolf: "For one thing, it's the sort of sword a 12-year-old could find heavy, but still use with certain degree of aptitude: [[ I have real broadswords in my house, ]] and I know that when I was 12 I had difficulty to lift them, so that trying to wave it around meant that I orbited around the sword almost more than the sword orbited around me." Why on earth would a (presumed) young person living in this modern age have a REAL broad sword? Especially for a jeweled sword like the Gryffindor sword (as well as Grey Wolf's), I think the answer is for the history, the artistry, the craftsmanship, and the aesthetic beauty. Clearly, one does not commonly carry around, not even in the wizard world, a jeweled sword that is worth a kings randsom. So, I think this probably was a cerimonial or special formal occassion sword that Gryffindor worn much the same way he might wear a large jeweled ring, or other ornamental jewelery. The fact that it was 'jewelry' and that it was primarily for show, doesn't imply that he wouldn't have made it a real fully functional razor sharp sword. Just some random thought I had on the subject. bboy_mn Off Topic: By the way, Grey Wolf, why do you have a broad sword? And, if it's not too personal, I'm wondering what country you are in and/or what country you are from? From talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 23 20:00:01 2002 From: talkative_alien_4000 at yahoo.com (Darla) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:00:01 -0000 Subject: Neville greatness expected? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45715 Hey all, Does anyone else feel that perhaps we can expect to be surprised by Neville in the future, and that maybe he'll play a bigger part in the fight against Voldemort then we expected? To Harry and class mates he's portrayed as a pretty forgetful and cowardly character, and yet we've learnt that he has the strength/courage to visit his parents in hospital when they can't even remember him, and carries that knowledge alone. I actually became a bit annoyed at Harry and his unaltered opinion of Neville after Dumbledore gives him a brief sketch of Neville's past. I mean, I think Neville deserves some pretty good respect, and Harry never really gives any indication that his opinion of him has risen. V as good as killed N's parents... if anyone has any motivation to stand up to V, I reckon N's gotta be pretty high on the list. What do you think? D. From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Oct 23 20:49:24 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:49:24 EDT Subject: Swords: Broad or Dainty and Why bother? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45716 > GreyWolf wrote: > >The sort of sword you'd get is the one you'd expect a > >roman to use: a short, broad bladed, iron or steel sword. At first I > >thought I could play the "wizards are advanced" card, but wizards > >wouldn't be proficient in armoury tech - more the reverse, actually. > A train of thought, linking in with the "Why bother to have a sword?" thread and veering off at a slight tangent on the technology front. Ultimately it's the control of the material itself, particularly when we are talking about something like iron, which has a very high melting point and can be very brittle if the process is not carefully controlled which is the most critical part of the process. The design of a weapon matters little if its material has too little strength (and someone no doubt will be able to say whether it is the Roman thrusting type or the mediaeval slashing type which needs the greater: I can't remember.) Going further back to prehistoric times, it does seem as if metal workers may have had a very special, perhaps even mystical, shamanic role. The process of turning base ore into shining, pure metal is after all very like the concept of alchemy and it is likely that the secret of metal smelting was for a long time the closely guarded secret of a few individuals in any society. It has been suggested that myths such as that of the Sword in the Stone may date back in concept possibly even as far as the Bronze Age. So perhaps, rather than Wizards not needing armoury technology, the reverse is true and the concept of wizardry may in part have grown out of the ability of a few to control metals and "magically" produce a shining sword from some unimpressive-looking rocks. (And of course, out of a mould, almost literally drawing a sword from a stone.) Aside from this, of course, the bearing of arms does not necessarily have anything to do with the *need* to bear arms. In Iron Age Central Europe, swords form an important part of the iconography and are typically found as prestige grave goods. They don't necessarily indicate that their owners were active warriors. Again, in Britain, a sword was one of the accoutrements of the Eighteenth Century Regency Buck but was more of a fashion statement than an object of practical value. We have to be very careful in discerning the meanings of artefacts. They are only things and *in isolation* tell us only a very limited amount about the people who owned them. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From daniel.brent at cwctv.net Wed Oct 23 20:44:46 2002 From: daniel.brent at cwctv.net (evenflow200214) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:44:46 -0000 Subject: Neville greatness expected? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45717 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Darla" wrote: > Hey all, > Does anyone else feel that perhaps we can expect to be surprised by > Neville in the future, and that maybe he'll play a bigger part in the > fight against Voldemort then we expected? To Harry and class mates > he's portrayed as a pretty forgetful and cowardly character, and yet > we've learnt that he has the strength/courage to visit his parents in > hospital when they can't even remember him, and carries that > knowledge alone. > I actually became a bit annoyed at Harry and his unaltered opinion > of Neville after Dumbledore gives him a brief sketch of Neville's > past. I mean, I think Neville deserves some pretty good respect, and > Harry never really gives any indication that his opinion of him has > risen. > V as good as killed N's parents... if anyone has any motivation to > stand up to V, I reckon N's gotta be pretty high on the list. What do > you think? > > D. I think Harry's behaviour can be forgiven as he didn't really have a lot of time to think about Neville after the Pensieve, what with the drama of the Third Task and the kidknapping, seeing his parents, Crouch jnr losing his soul and the Parting Of The Ways. He had a pretty stressful time of it after The Pensieve so he can probably be forgiven. Whether Neville will do something great or not I don't know but I don't think he will stand up to V as in face to face. No-one does that and lives. The only person to have done so is Harry. He has to unlock what's blocking him first be it memory charm or not. And, hate to be picky but did V actually authorise the attack on the Longbottoms? Was it actually him? I don't think so... I'm not excusing V but he didn't actually attack them. I think Neville may attempt revenge on the people that actually did do it though. Daniel From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Wed Oct 23 21:01:48 2002 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (kaarlo moran) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:01:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville greatness expected? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45718 > V as good as killed N's parents... if anyone has any motivation to > stand up to V, I reckon N's gotta be pretty high on the list. What do > you think? > > D. > I've also wondered why Harry hasn't opened up to Neville a little. In terms of loss, Neville got the worse hand in terms of parents. Harry's parents died quickly and even though he doesn't remember them he has pictures and stuff. But Neville?...he's always reminded every time he visits his parents during the holidays of what he lost. I wonder if the reason he's deathly afraid of Snape is because he might know that he was a Death Eater? Just a thought... -K-lo From golden_faile at yahoo.com Wed Oct 23 21:56:53 2002 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville ? greatness expected? Possible book 5 spoiler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021023215653.85644.qmail@web41111.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45719 evenflow200214 wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Darla" wrote: > Hey all, > Does anyone else feel that perhaps we can expect to be surprised by > Neville in the future, and that maybe he'll play a bigger part in the > fight against Voldemort then we expected? To Harry and class mates > he's portrayed as a pretty forgetful and cowardly character, and yet > we've learnt that he has the strength/courage to visit his parents in > hospital when they can't even remember him, and carries that > knowledge alone. > S P O I L E R Yeah, from what I understand, in book five Neville will surprise everyone. So far, I've heard that when Crouch was masquerading as Moody that he put Neville under cruciatus(?)(Remeber the part in the book where he gives him the herbology book? This is where it's supposed to happen) and that Neville will be doing some surprising things to come. I got this from hearsay... I read it on a site, someone who works at scholastic posted it. I don't know how true it actually is. Laila Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eddie_Sweetie_darling at hotmail.com Wed Oct 23 23:18:32 2002 From: eddie_Sweetie_darling at hotmail.com (Erin Downey) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:18:32 -0500 Subject: Mrs. Figg and What Went Wrong Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45720 Regarding the Mrs. Figg threads... and a little theory of my own... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sally says: Yes, thanks very much for clearing that one up Maria, I was under exactly the same impression myself. However, I can understand how easily the connection can be assumed. These are my thoughts on the possibility of Mrs Figg being the next DADA teacher. (Please forgive me if this topic has already been discussed but I'm new to the group and haven't yet got to grips properly with the archive system). Book 4 has revealed that Arabella Figg has an important role to play in the future reformation of PD's 'old crowd'. We know that she is the same 'mad old lady' who we met briefly in Book 1, although we don't know if she's always lived near Privet Drive, or whether she was stationed there by PD after Harry was delivered to the Dursleys. I can't find the exact quote but I believe PD say's something somewhere along the lines of Harry being safer at Privet Drive than even he realises. This makes it reasonable to suggest that the close proximity of AF is the reason for HP's safety while he's in the muggle world. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Well, here's a sickle to chew on. If Mrs. Figg indeed functions as protection for Harry, then it only makes sense that she should come to Hogwarts. Dumbledore and Figg together should be a profoundly secure barrier between Voldy and Harry, which is evidently what's needed after the whole PortKeyCup debacle. I'm relatively new to the list, so I'd like to bring up a side note that might have already been discussed far in the past... that Harry himself released Voldemort at the zoo in PS/SS. Voldy was living off other beings, and had been relatively contained to that point. It would be perfect for him to be caught by keepers in the wild (Brazil might be a long shot, but bear with me here), and when the snakes are left to breed transfer his essence to a newly born snake in order to live longer for a chance at escape. Or he could have inhabited another animal brought to the zoo, then transferred to his favorite form (snake) once inside. WHAT does this have to do with Mrs. Figg, you ask? Well, it's a matter of this (zoo visit) being the first time he's not left with her while the Dursleys on an outing. Mrs. Figg may not have broken her leg, she might have been far enough away on travel or some such nonsense that her connection with Harry for his protection was broken, allowing him close proximity to Voldemort. If you notice, in PS/SS the film the snake's voice is VERY similar to QuirrellMort's at the end! Since it's been stated that JK has been closely involved with the cast/directors regarding future plot (so the movies won't screw up her future plans with writing), it may be more than coincidence. I call my little theory SCREW, for Snake Can Really (be) Evil Wizard! ErinDowney P.S. Also, people mention the parallelism between Voldemort and Hitler... again, another long shot, but it was rumored that Hitler didn't commit suicide but instead was living in South America. Brazil:Voldemort:Hitler:South America? Just seems a little too coincidental. ----------------------------------------------------------------- "One snap of my fingers and I can raise hemlines so high the whole world's your gynaecologist." -- Patsy, Absolutely Fabulous ----------------------------------------------------------------- "If someone tells me that all designers do is fluff flowers, I'm going to break every bone in their body and make a lamp with them." -- Frank Bielec, Trading Spaces _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls!Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp From nplyon at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 01:48:38 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: {FILK} Ron Message-ID: <20021024014838.4841.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45721 (To the tune of "Belle" from Disneys "Beauty and the Beast") Dedicated to Gail B., who just loves those Disney filks. :) RON Weasley clan, its one huge famly Theres no way you could call us measly Weasley clan, full of red-haired people See us and youll say MOLLY Weasley! ARTHUR Weasley! PERCY Weasley! GINNY Weasley! BILL Weasley! RON There goes my dad to work at the Ministry Bills a curse-breaker for Gringotts My sisters name is Ginny And shes really quite skinny But as far as money goes FRED Aint got a lot! MOLLY I try my best With seven its not easy But I try to meet all their needs GEORGE Poor Ron just doesnt stand out FRED But he likes to scream and shout ARTHUR & MOLLY These darn kids, they just wont stop growing like weeds CHARLIE Weasley! RON My clan FRED Hey arent we the best? GINNY Weasley RON My clan GEORGE Were really cool MOLLY I needa break ARTHUR (Examining a picture of a racing broom that Fred and George have handed to him) Thats too expensive RON Have to find a way to stand out at school! FRED & GEORGE Hey were the twinsand we are full of mischief Practical jokes we love to play MOLLY Very much to my chagrin ARTHUR (Shaking his head and chuckling indulgently) Our rascals at it again FRED & GEORGE Aw sheesh, Mum and Dad, we dont know what to say RON Why dont they pay attention? I just feel so awfly neglected Each year my hand-knit jumper Is the same nasty shade of maroon Im rejected CHARLIE Gosh, I just really love working with dragons The hazard pay is really great PERCY Love my job, I must confide Study cauldron undersides RON I am different from the rest of them Im nothing like the rest of them ALL (except Ron) Hes working himself into quite a state HERMIONE The very first time that I laid eyes on Ron He had some dirt upon his nose Then I saw how he plays chess How he stands out from the rest Every day my love for him just grows and grows GINNY The only girl In the whole famly Ginny Weasley Im Daddys pet! The very last To go to Hogwarts That Harry is the cutest boy Ive met BILL Weasley! HERMIONE Weasley! RON My clan ARTHUR Weasley MOLLY You call this room clean? PERCY Ssh! I cant think CHARLIE Welsh green BILL goblins GINNY hate snakes HERMIONE Listen! ARTHUR Im off to work HERMIONE Please let me speak! GEORGE Our dream FRED Wizard GEORGE joke shop! FRED Wheezes! MOLLY No, I dont think so! FRED & GEORGE Aw, come on Mum! ALL Weasley clan! RON Why wont someone pay attention to me? HERMIONE Ill help Ron to be all that he can be! ALL (except Ron and Hermione) So here we are a big and loving famly Can you believe we get along? MOLLY & GINNY We cant help but think its sad FRED, GEORGE, ARTHUR, BILL, CHARLIE, & PERCY It really is too bad ALL (except Ron) Cause we really love that Weasley boy That bright and clever Weasley boy He really is a special boythat Ron! ~Nicole, glad to be filking again after a week's break. ===== ***************************************************************** "You haven't got a letter on yours," George observed. "I suppose she thinks you don't forget your name. But we're not stupid--we know we're called Gred and Forge." Chapter 12, "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" ***************************************************************** __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From Malady579 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 24 02:01:12 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 02:01:12 -0000 Subject: Zoo Snake Voldie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45722 Erin Downey wrote: >>>...that Harry himself released Voldemort at the zoo in PS/SS.<<< Amusing idea there Erin. >>>Voldy was living off other beings, and had been relatively contained to that point. It would be perfect for him to be caught by keepers in the wild (Brazil might be a long shot, but bear with me here), and when the snakes are left to breed transfer his essence to a newly born snake in order to live longer for a chance at escape.<<< PS/SS Ch 2: "Dudley quickly found the largest snake in the place. It could have wrapped its body twice around Uncle Vernon's car and crushed it into a trash can-" "This species bred in the zoo." Now, we know the snake in question was bred in the zoo, so by your line of logic, this snake would be under ten years old. If a snake is so large that it can wrap around a car twice, it would take it more than 10 years to become that big. So I rule that possibility out. >>Or he could have inhabited another animal brought to the zoo, then transferred to his favorite form (snake) once inside.<< A possibility. Voldemort did say he prefers occupying snakes. So I cannot refute you there...for now. >>>WHAT does this have to do with Mrs. Figg, you ask? Well, it's a matter of this (zoo visit) being the first time he's not left with her while the Dursleys on an outing. Mrs. Figg may not have broken her leg, she might have been far enough away on travel or some such nonsense that her connection with Harry for his protection was broken, allowing him close proximity to Voldemort.<<< Since when Harry is not around the Dursley's he seems to be required to be around Mrs. Figg (when not at Hogwarts), I think it is safe to say that Harry is safe from Voldemort when he is just around the Dursleys. Harry after all can go out and about with Petunia for shopping. I don't think it is the houses that protect him, but the people. And besides, if the snake was Voldemort, why didn't he wrap himself quickly around Potter and constrict him dead. Seems silly that all the Voldie snake did was slither away to Brazil. >>If you notice, in PS/SS the film the snake's voice is VERY similar to QuirrellMort's at the end! Since it's been stated that JK has been closely involved with the cast/directors regarding future plot (so the movies won't screw up her future plans with writing), it may be more than coincidence.<<< I don't think we can draw facts just from voices in movies. There are too many reasons why those voices could sound similar. JKR was involved in the plot so it is possible you are on to something, but I really doubt it. The snake scene was the first time in the books when Harry himself, and we as readers, realized that something more was going on. That moment is very important and establishes that Harry is a wizard quickly and amusingly. In the book, it did not say whether they caught the snake, so I cannot say for sure they did and thus Voldemort got out and away, as you seem to imply. But, given the size of the Boa Constrictor, I think it is safe to say they were able to capture the animal and return it to a zoo cage. >>>P.S. Also, people mention the parallelism between Voldemort and Hitler...again, another long shot, but it was rumored that Hitler didn't commit suicide but instead was living in South America. Brazil Voldemort:Hitler:South America? Just seems a little too coincidental.<<< Um, they have Hitler's skull in a box in the Kremlin. Proved it with DNA and everything. So like the rumor with Hitler, Voldemort does not seem to be in Brazil either. Melody From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Thu Oct 24 02:04:01 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 03:04:01 +0100 Subject: Catching Up: Accents & Class In-Reply-To: <10.271ab64b.2ae5991c@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021023165125.009766a0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45723 (My apologies in advance: some of this is going to ramble. This is a comment on several recent posts, which I won't necessarily quote) Firstly, I'd like to clarify that, being perfectly aware that there are non-linguists, non-native English speakers and non-Brits present on this list, I was using "standard English" in a generic sense rather than any technical one. I was slightly remiss in capitalising "Standard" throughout, as "Standard English" does indeed have a specific meaning in linguistics and philology. All I was trying to indicate by use of that term were "deviations from the norm". Dialects (and indeed whole languages; indeed, some linguists make the case that some "dialects" are indeed separate languages!) differ from one another by variations in one or more of vocabulary, grammar, syntax, pronunciation (including enunciation, stress and cadence) or spelling (in written form). The problem is that it is very difficult to convey differences in pronunciation without recourse to the phonetic alphabet... :-) Taking this very list as an example, it's impossible to tell until someone makes a mistake that they're not native English speakers or what their background is. We can usually tell the Americans and the Brits apart by our spelling of colour/color etc., and some of the questions that get asked, but otherwise, communicating as we do through a text medium, we have no grounds on which to make assumptions. Heck, we can't even make safe assumptions about educational levels - perhaps not in this list, but certainly in other HP forums, I've been surprised to discover that people who come across to me as barely-educated teenagers are in fact 30, 40 or even 50-plus with formal education better than mine. JKR has given Hagrid and Stan non-standard grammar and syntax, although even native Brits find it difficult to distinguish exactly what regional qualities are being put across, although the implication is that they're uneducated. Furthermore, some of the language foibles they've been given aren't internally consistent. As a result, the only thing we can say about them is that they have holes in their education of *English* - in Hagrid's case, we learn that he has an incomplete *magical* education as well. It's true that kids at schools (especially boarding schools) tend to equalise their accents to something approaching the highest common ground, but this isn't really a linguistic issue ("how" they do it) but a psychological one ("why" they do it). Kids don't want to stand out and try to fit in as best as possible. When most of their peers have a particular "accent" or vocabulary, they see a need to pick these up themselves. Very often this is a result of direct mickey-taking. On top of that, the media (especially TV) play a role in unifying vocabulary. Less so accents, as there is a variety of them both on TV and in people's daily lives, but words whose usage may be limited to certain areas or peer groups can very quickly become widespread. One word I remember from my youth as being pretty much exclusively used in Lancashire (not that I've ever lived in Lancs, but I have several friends from there), wassock (meaning, very roughly, "fool"), has since become standard fare country-wide as a result of several northern-based TV shows. As a result, expecting to be able to determine people's social or geographic origins by their vocabulary is getting pretty difficult. I therefore don't find it strange that although everyone in the Potterverse *appears* to speak "perfect" English, there really are no grounds to expect this to be the case. At Hogwarts, the kids are from all over the country and thus it would be expected that there's a huge variety of spoken accents. There is therefore little pressure to conform, as there is no "standard" by which to measure oneself. I can't speak for either version of the audio books, but TMTSNBN is a good indicator of that: McGonagall's Scottish lilt, Dumbledore's vague Irish brogue, Snape's West London (though not RP) don't really give the kids a clear aspirational ideal. [Complete aside: coincidentally, I heard Fiona Shaw and Ian Hart on the radio today (in separate programmes) speaking in their natural accents (Shaw: Irish, Hart: Scouse) and it struck me that whilst the two of them "poshed up" their speech patterns for the first movie, Maggie Smith hid her plummy self behind her Scottish impersonation. :-)] Some people have pointed out that it's a bit difficult for kids to have picked up regional speech patterns, as the wizarding world is self-enclosed and keeps itself apart. On the other hand, I feel compelled to draw attention to Ron's statement that they've had to inter-breed with Muggles for some time to stave off extinction... Muggle-borns and mixed-bloods seem to have been attending Hogwarts for some time (if not since its founding) and so pupils would probably gravitate towards peers and some regional or class speech patterns would be maintained or introduced. As an example, the current meaning of "cool" has only been prevalent in the UK for about 30 years, yet the kids use it quite frequently and naturally (though they *over* use it in TMTSNBN). As Eloise said, JKR is confined to what she can communicate on paper and it is very easy for the rendition of regional accents to appear very similar to each other, not to mention difficult to read. She therefore limits this literary device to very few characters, in order to make them stand out. Whether or not this indicates the absence of varied speech in the wizarding world does not necessarily follow, though. As for the chap who washes the dishes at the Leaky Cauldron, I consider him to be a bit of an aberration on JKR's part. We've already witnessed a few magical ways to deal with such matters (though not Magic Dishwashers, yet!) :-) so I can't really see the need for someone to be employed to perform that function. In fact, generally speaking, the magical world doesn't really have much of a need for a working class to perform menial jobs, as most of these can be performed by magic. Squibs or those who don't manage to get many OWLs probably therefore end up with even poorer prospects than real-world academic under-achievers. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who's going to end this here. There's more he'd like to say, but it's getting late and this is probably long enough already.... From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 04:53:48 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 04:53:48 -0000 Subject: Robes and other Clothing Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45724 GulPlum aka Richard, who's got a real bee in his bonnet about Hogwarts uniforms... Post- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/45703 GulPlum posted recently about the Hogwarts uniforms. Somewhat related to 'the movie which will not be named'. This got me thinking, and I decided to add some general thoughts about young wizards in training clothing. The story continually mentions 'robes', but exactly what does that mean? Is JKR implying that all the students at Hogwarts are wearing the free flowing full length wizards robes in the Dumbledore/Merlin style or is she implying a symbolic outer garment like a choir or graduation robe as seem in the movie? I think this type of choir/graduation robe was not that uncommon in higher UK private schools in the not too distant past. Worn mostly, I assume, as a matter of tradition, much like UK judges and members of Parliment (do they still dress like that in British Parliment?). I just can't picture any modern kid muggle (especially) or magic wearing Dumbledore/Merlin robes on a daily basis. You simply aren't going to get a few hundred pre-teen and teenage boys to go around all day in dresses; wizards or no wizards. I've done some research on medieval clothing and find that virtually no one but the extremely rich and priviledge, and monk of religious orders worn the free flowing full length dress-like robes. Even in the cases where I did find rich men dressed in multi-layered robes, the main outer robe appeared to be an outer garment. They were still wearing other non-underwear type clothing underneath. A majority of the men who lived during a time when people would likely wear robes, usually wore trousers and some type of pull over shirt or tunic. People of a social station slightly above the common man may have worn short trousers over tights with a long jacket-like robe. So, I highly suspect that the movie got most of the costumes pretty close. If you would like to see what people really wore back in the 'good old days', check out these sights. http://www.costumes.org/pages/timelinepages/timeline.htm Note the man in the red cloak over the title 'Carolinian Europe'. This is probably very common clothing. Note the man next to the woman in the white dress over the title '15th Century Italy'. He is wearing a robe, but he clearly has multi-layers of clothing underneath. '1500-1535', man next to the lady in the green dress; again outer robe with multi-layers of clothing underneath and clearly these are rich people. When I read the book, I do not picture Ron and Harry or anyone else walking around in medieval 'kings' or merlin type robes. I see them in school robes similar to choir-type robes that you would have found in European schools in the 19th and 20th century. Other costume links- http://www.costumegallery.com/research.htm http://moas.atlantia.sca.org/topics/clot.htm Who knew from reading what people perceive as I child's book, I would end up researching medievel cloths and swords, not to mention dozens of other things I've research because of reading these books. JKR.... Thanks, it's been fun and educating. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From star_brite999 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 24 02:47:36 2002 From: star_brite999 at hotmail.com (Rachel) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 02:47:36 -0000 Subject: Spec... Pattern of last chapters? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45725 has anyone noticed a pattern of the "adventures" Herry faces at the end of each of the books? In the first book, the "adventure" involved Harry, Hermione, and Ron. In the second, it involved only Harry and Ron. The third, only Harry and Hermione, and the last, only Harry by himself. What do you think this could lead to in further books? will the pattern repeat itself, or will he have adventures w/ other characters? or even will Harry not be involved in upcoming adventures? I think there is reason to believe the next adventure will be faced by Ron and Hermione and not Harry at all. tell me what you think... -Rachel From anglinsbees at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 10:30:00 2002 From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:30:00 -0000 Subject: Why bother to have a sword?! (Re: Swords: Broad or Dainty) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45726 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Fyre Wood" wrote: > > > > Why on earth would a (presumed) young person living in this modern age > have a REAL broad sword? > > Off Topic: > By the way, Grey Wolf, why do you have a broad sword? And, if it's not > too personal, I'm wondering what country you are in and/or what > country you are from? I can't speak for Grey Wolf But I and many of my friends and family, who are members of The Society For Creative Anachronisims, have quite a number of swords about the house, as well as daggers, battle axes, halberds, and the odd sonic screwdriver and homemade lazer too. The SCA is an educational group dedicated sudy of and to historic reinactment of the middle ages from the 6th to the 16th century- all facets, Martial, domestic, cultural and artistic. (Everything from feasts to costumes, to bardic recitation,as well as the tournaments. It is perfectly legal to own a sword in america, tho carrying one edged or not, may be more of a problem. Even a "Wall Hanger" can cause substantial damge when swung, and Local laws often prohibit carrying anything over three inches. Aside from the SCA, many people who are fans of military history, renaissance fesivals, fantasy stories, and role playing games are collectors of swords. A quick search on Ebay will turn up hundreds of swords of all types and qualities. You can get a "Roman" type sword, (made in China), complete with scabbard, that looks pretty good for around $30. (My husband bought one last pennsic.) It's strictly a "wall hanger", but since few people practice with live steel, or weild their swords in any way at all (Rattan is used for SCA combat swords.) it is sufficient for most people. For someone looking for a sword, thre are bladesmiths who will make incredibly accurate reproductions of period weapons, but you must expect to pay hundreds, if not thousands of dollars. If you are looking for something old, there are the victorian replicas, as well as the rare, and highly treasured authentic antiquities. Yeah, I have a sword or two around the house (Near the attic door, last I checked.) A suit of armor, bows, arrows, four spinning wheels, three looms, and a pavillion. So do most of my friends and family. As for Harry's sword, to my only semi- educated eye, it looks more like a victorian ceremonial sword than anything else. The 10th- 12th century swords I have seen pictures and reproductions of had much broader, sturdy looking blades. And even short or single handed weapons tended to have a blade about twice as thick as the one in the picture of Harry. But Hey- It's fantasy! As I have pointed out before, Moaning Myrtles bathroom certinaly hasn't been around since the 11th century, so who put the snake on the faucet? Heck- Who installed the trick sink? Thre must have been an Heir about before Tom Riddle....or at least "Slytherins Plumber" So maybe Godrics sword has been reforged. If it worked for Tolkien, then why not here? Ellen Anglin AKA Mistress Elen Greenhand OL SCA From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu Oct 24 10:36:27 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:36:27 -0000 Subject: Spec... Pattern of last chapters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45727 Rachel wrote: > has anyone noticed a pattern of the "adventures" Herry faces at the > end of each of the books? In the first book, the "adventure" > involved Harry, Hermione, and Ron. In the second, it involved only > Harry and Ron. The third, only Harry and Hermione, and the last, > only Harry by himself. What do you think this could lead to in > further books? will the pattern repeat itself, or will he have > adventures w/ othercharacters? or even will Harry not be involved in > upcoming adventures? I think there is reason to believe the next > adventure will be faced by Ron and Hermione and not Harry at all. > tell me what you think... > -Rachel I have to point out that this idea has, indeed, been discused before, but, even knowing yahoomort as well as I do (I comne close to blows with it every time I look up past posts), I have been unable to find the last time it was discused. It was quite some time ago, though, so maybe it's time we brought it up again. The general feeling I got from last time was that that recurring pattern is a sign of Harry's growth into maturity; that is, that he faces the problems with less help every time. In the first book, he has both Ron's strategic capabilities and Hermione's knowledge to help him. Then, only Ron. Then, only Hermione. And finally, just himself. However, there is a big problem with this: the pattern is not that easy. For one thing, Harry is alone in what we could consider the "showdown" of PS, CoS and GoF (the moments were he faces Voldemort). In PoA, on the other hand, the showdown is really the SS ("Shack Scene"), were there are multitudes inside that room: Harry, Ron, Hermione, Peter, Sirius, Lupin, Crookshanks and Snape. The scene ends, intertestingly, with Harry facing alone by himself the dementors. Timeturned!Harry and Hermione only tie loose ends, but cannot be considered to be part of the showdown (although Timeturned!Harry does participate by saving himself; see reference to "alone by himself"). My conclusion: that the pararell is not as clear as it seems. For one thing, Harry is always on his own when the push comes to shove. Not only that, in the moments before, there is more people than memebers of the triad (HRH), except in book one. In book two, for example, Lockhart is with Harry as far as Ron, and he is as useful as Ron in the scene. And in GoF, Harry has the support of Cedric "Spare" Diggory. Not much help, indeed, but neither have any of Harry's friends been of any help previously, except in getting Harry there. The pattern *I* see in the books is that Harry is helped by a number of individuals, changing in each book, to get to the position were Harry *alone* faces the greatest challenge of the year. There is one last pattern that ties in with MAGIC DISHWASHER (you were expecting it, weren't you? ;-) ). In the first three books, Harry faces the challenges on his own, but there is always a back-up ready to help him when he is about to fail. In book one, Dumbledore arrives in the nick of time. In book two, Dumbledore's bird comes in and destroys the enemy's most powerful weapon (the basilisk's eyes), and then cures him so he survives the venom (the second most powerful weapon). In book three, as MAGIC DISHWASHER believes, Snape is sent and when *he* fails to get Harry out of the sticky situation, Dumbledore sends *Harry himself* to get him out of the situaion. The problem with this pattern is, of course, book four, where Dumbledore misses the portkey!Cup twist, and Harry is taken away to face Voldemort without any back-up except for "Spare" Diggory - but Dumbledore is falible, after all, and this pattern is a reflection of Dumbledore's planning, not of JKR's writing. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From anglinsbees at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 10:46:55 2002 From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:46:55 -0000 Subject: Robes and other Clothing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45728 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: > http://moas.atlantia.sca.org/topics/clot.htm > > Who knew from reading what people perceive as I child's book, I would > end up researching medievel cloths and swords, not to mention dozens > of other things I've research because of reading these books. > > JKR.... Thanks, it's been fun and educating. > > Just some thoughts. > > bboy_mn The Kngdom of Atlantia "Arts and Sciences" Web page is one of the best costume resource pages on the internet, as well as having links on almost any other Medieval art or scince you could desire- including armor and swords; find it at; http://moas.atlantia.sca.org/topics.htm Yes, most medivel clothing is made up of many layers. It was simply too cold in most of northern Europe to get away with only one layer of clothing. (No central heating!) An average mens outfit would be under trousers of some sort, (Loose or tight, long or short, depends on region and era.) Which might have been covered with some sort of outer legwear- tights or hose, or perhaps just leg wraps. Linen undertunic or shirt, one or more wool overtunics or jackets, and if one was wealthy enough, and the climate cold enough, an overcoat or robe, and perhaps a cloak on top of that. Women wore an underdress/chemise, with an overdress or two on top of that, and possibly a surcote. In general, because of the cold, multiple layers were the rule, rather than the exception, and welthier people wore more layers, and had more clothing in general. When referring to Monks robes, Keep in mind that the habit of most orders was fixed at the time the order was founded- and was based on common clothing of the time. Some of our best information on the cut of medieval clothes comes from monastaries and nunneries who's members have been cutting their habits/robes from exactly the same patterns since the 12th century. Ellen From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Thu Oct 24 11:12:56 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:12:56 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Robes and other Clothing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021024105142.00967d90@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45729 At 04:53 24/10/02 +0000, Steve wrote: >I think this type of choir/graduation robe was not that uncommon in >higher UK private schools in the not too distant past. Worn mostly, I >assume, as a matter of tradition, much like UK judges and members of >Parliment (do they still dress like that in British Parliment?). Err... Let's get a few things, including terminology, straight. In Parliament, the only people who routinely wear anything strange are the Speaker of the House of Commons, who wears a black gown over a suit (or, in the case of the previous Speaker who was the first woman to hold the post, a dress), and a clerical collar instead of a tie; the Speaker of the House of Lords who wears full Judge's garb (he is, after all, not only a judge, but the highest judge in the land!) which include a black robe, a red gown and a judge's long white wig. Clerks in both houses wear black judicial gowns over modern clothes. There are a few characters (e.g. Black Rod) who make appearances at ceremonial occasions and are dressed in more or less outlandish fashion, but they're not there as a matter of course. In courts, barristers wear black gowns and white wigs. In lower courts, most of the time judges wear standard suits, as do the lawyers. In higher courts, full Judges' regalia come into play, as per the Lord Chancellor's garb when sitting as Speaker of the House of Lords. Most British Public Schools have worn reasonably contemporary clothing for many generations. True, some of them have uniforms which are a bit strange, but they don't include robes. One famous London Prep School (British meaning, not American, i.e. kids up to the age of about 12) has a uniform which is a distasteful (to my eyes) combination of pink, orange and maroon which includes pantaloons and knee-length socks. Of senior Public Schools, Eton has the most distinctive uniform, which consists of morning suits (i.e. black tail coats over white shirts and bow ties and waistcoats). AFAIK choir robes have never been worn as a matter of course, but only by choristers when in "chorister mode". >I just can't picture any modern kid muggle (especially) or magic >wearing Dumbledore/Merlin robes on a daily basis. You simply aren't >going to get a few hundred pre-teen and teenage boys to go around all >day in dresses; wizards or no wizards. Let's not get meta-textual here. :-) In the four books to date, there is no mention whatsoever of kids at Hogwarts wearing "trousers" (other than pyjamas) but "robes" are mentioned on almost every second page. Outlandish or unlikely as it may be, kids at Hogwarts are invariably dressed in "robes", and occasionally "cloaks". Specifically, there are several instances of Harry taking off his "robes" and climbing into bed. There is no mention of his ever removing anything else (just for the sake of completeness, school uniforms are never, ever, referred to as "robes" in contemporary English, and AFAIK never have been). Incidentally, JKR isn't entirely consistent, as sometimes it's "robes" and sometimes it's "robe"; I can't make out any reason from the context why she would jump from plural to singular. When given his dress robes, Ron insists that he'd rather go starkers, which indicates that he's not expected to have much on beneath the robe. Furthermore, his dress robe has got "lace cuffs". This is an item of clothing with sleeves; it is not some kind of cloak. Overall, then, I expect Hogwarts "robes" to be something akin to choristers' robes, and absolutely, definitely, not the tasteful grey trouser uniforms shown in TMTSNBNs. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, whose bees are really buzzing in his bonnet now and couldn't leave home without commenting. :-) From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Oct 24 12:53:42 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:53:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Robes and other Clothing Message-ID: <196.f8304aa.2ae94756@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45730 > Bboy_mn > > >I think this type of choir/graduation robe was not that uncommon in > >higher UK private schools in the not too distant past. Worn mostly, I > >assume, as a matter of tradition, much like UK judges and members of > >Parliment (do they still dress like that in British Parliment?). > Richard has replied fairly comprehensively to this. I completely concur that, on the whole, choir/graduation type robes are not normally worn in British schools. But I wonder if Bboy has in mind the uniform of the Bluecoat Schools? These were set up as charitable institutions in Tudor times and still retain their Tudor costme, most bringing them out only for special occasions although boys at Christ's Hospital in Sussex still wear their traditional garb everyday. It consists of a navy blue cassock-like garment (with a collar similar to a clergyman's preaching bands) worn over knee breeches and yellow stockings and is said to be derived from the ordinary attire of Tudor school boys and apprentices. If anyone is interested, there are some great pictures of British schoolboy uniforms at, http://home.freeuk.com/mkb/SUG/SUG.html (The 'Traditional English Schoolboy' uniform is almost identical to my children's school, although these days short trousers are rarely worn by any but the youngest boys.) The page devoted especially to the Bluecoat Schools includes a painting by Tissot which includes two Bluecoat boys, one of whom is dressed awfully like Snape in the CWMNBN (the fact that the uniform looks black helps!) http://home.free.com/mkb/SUG/Blcoat.htm Otherwise, anything approaching the everyday wearing of *gowns* is, I *think* (although I'm sure someone out there will correct me!) confined to a handful of universities. At Oxford and Cambridge they are (or at least were) required when taking exams and for formal halls (dinners) and students at St Andrews also wear gowns, although in their case, red ones. But in the case of the Potterverse, JKR is surely just drawing on the traditional picture of the robe-wearing witch or wizard (robe in this sense being an over-the-head, dress-type garment). I'm not really sure where this comes from, or how old the image is although I would hazard that where wizards are concerned, it is to do with the exotic, oriental garb adopted by stage magicians and the fact that witchcraft implies ritual, which implies ritual-type garments. Where does the pointy hat come from? Someone on this site once quoted the reason for the film's change to (academic) gowns over school uniform being to do with the fact that all those plain black work robes would result in a sea of black which would not worked cinematically. Sorry, I can't remember who or when and I don't feel like confronting Yahoomort today! Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 14:04:42 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 07:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Spec... Pattern of last chapters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021024140442.16657.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45731 Grey Wolf wrote: In the first three books, Harry faces the challenges on his own, but there is always a back-up ready to help him when he is about to fail. In book one, Dumbledore arrives in the nick of time. In book two, Dumbledore's bird comes in and destroys the enemy's most powerful weapon (the basilisk's eyes), and then cures him so he survives the venom (the second most powerful weapon). In book three, [snip] Snape is sent and when *he* fails to get Harry out of the sticky situation, Dumbledore sends *Harry himself* to get him out of the situaion. The problem with this pattern is, of course, book four, where Dumbledore misses the portkey!Cup twist, and Harry is taken away to face Voldemort without any back-up except for "Spare" Diggory Me: Actually, I believe that Harry does in fact have a backup in GoF, one that JKR gave him way back in book one when he was in Ollivander's: his wand. Were it not for the fact that he had a brother wand to Voldemort's, his goose would surely have been cooked. Further, since the feathers in each wand came from Fawkes, one could view Fawkes as again contributing to Harry's survival. The "shadows" which emerged from Voldemort's wand also serve as backup (although they are a result of the first backup, the brother wand). The shadows are also another instance of Voldemort's own actions working against him. (It was through his own actions that he lost his power in the first place.) If he hadn't killed those people, their shadows would not have been able to assist Harry. I do think you are correct that the true pattern is Harry being on his own when the chips are down. Although he may be with some other people in the final chapters of future books, I believe that something will occur to remove them from the action at the ultimate moment of truth. Plus, purely from a practical standpoint, Ron and Hermione being the ones to stand against the villain at the end of any of the books does not make sense in a series being written from Harry's point of view. Harry would have to receive the story second hand, from them, and that wouldn't be nearly as satisfying as witnessing Harry's first-hand encounters. --Barb (Yes, I purged any mention of kitchen appliances that wash dishes from the post to which I am replying as I prefer to discuss theories in plain English and will have to be dragged kicking and screaming to Inish Alley.) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 11:42:35 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:42:35 -0000 Subject: Neville greatness expected? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45732 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., kaarlo moran wrote: > I've also wondered why Harry hasn't opened up to Neville a little. In terms > of loss, Neville got the worse hand in terms of parents. Harry's parents > died quickly and even though he doesn't remember them he has pictures and > stuff. Yes, well - Harry was under a lot of stress, and not ready to deal with it yet. In the next book I believe he will. And as out-of-place and numb as Harry felt after facing Voldemort as though he could not take in anything more. Neville's been doing the same all the time... > But Neville?...he's always reminded every time he visits his parents > during the holidays of what he lost. Oh he is. I also think that Neville has more memories of his parents than Harry. Good memories. Harry has one memory of his parents: Their death. > I wonder if the reason he's deathly > afraid of Snape is because he might know that he was a Death Eater? Just a > thought... Oh I'm almost sure of it. He might have known the truth of Crouch Jr, as well, deep inside. I doubt the real Moody would have kept cruciatus on that spider for so long demonstrating the Unforgivables. I think that Neville never saw his parents tortured, but I think he heard them. Neville's unfocused and uncontrolled with his magic. Some of this might have to do with him using his parents' wand (Just guessing it is so) and his mental trauma he'll overcome. But one thing: Only Neville has ever had uncontrolled, accidental magic at Hogwarts! (And only in third book after starting Hogwarts things *just happen* to Harry... while it happens *all the time* to Neville...) -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 12:05:58 2002 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:05:58 -0000 Subject: Zoo Snake Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45733 I don't think it was posessed by Voldemort (who was in some jungle or posessed Quirrell) at the time. It was there to introduce parseltongue and Harry's ability in it - before using *that* in book two. Yet, I think that the Boa Constrictor will appear again. Big enough to crush Vernon's car... Hmm.. Harry might be at Figgs' while Dursleys visit the zoo again, and this time the Boa might kill Petunia and Dudley... thus destroying, partly, Harry's protection. Mrs. Figg... Could she be Harry's godmother or another relative? (possibly with Ageing potion that smells like cabbage?) -- Finwitch From fyredriftwood at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 14:54:31 2002 From: fyredriftwood at yahoo.com (Fyre Wood) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:54:31 -0000 Subject: Fifth Wheel or house intermixing stud? (was Re: Neville ?greatness expected?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45734 Darla kindly posted this: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey all, > Does anyone else feel that perhaps we can expect to be surprised by > Neville in the future, and that maybe he'll play a bigger part in the > fight against Voldemort then we expected? Fyre Wood (me) replies: HOORAY! A NEVILLE TOPIC... OKAY MY CAPS LOCK BUTTON IS STUCK AND I APPOLOGISE... okay, fixed it. =) I think that Neville will do something great in the future, though what that "great" thing is, is still unknown. She continued... >>>>>>>>To Harry and class mates > he's portrayed as a pretty forgetful and cowardly character, and yet > we've learnt that he has the strength/courage to visit his parents in > hospital when they can't even remember him, and carries that > knowledge alone. > I actually became a bit annoyed at Harry and his unaltered opinion > of Neville after Dumbledore gives him a brief sketch of Neville's > past. I mean, I think Neville deserves some pretty good respect, and > Harry never really gives any indication that his opinion of him has > risen. > V as good as killed N's parents... if anyone has any motivation to > stand up to V, I reckon N's gotta be pretty high on the list. What do > you think? > Fyre Wood (me) replies: I agree with what you wrote. Neville has always been considered the fifth wheel of the Gryffindor Boys. While Seamus/Dean and Ron/Harry are always off together as friends, poor Neville is left all alone. Or is he? We know for a fact that he's good at Herbology, so perhaps he made friends with a few of the Hufflepuffs from Herbology or another class. He could have friends we don't even know about from other houses, due to Harry being so stuck on himself and his problems. If he has enough guts to get a date to a dance before Harry/Ron, why not go make friends from other houses =). If someone had told me they lived with their Grandmother, I would have immediately asked what happened to his/her parents. But NONE of the Gryffindors do that. I have this hunch that Neville will become Stud!Neville in either book 5 or 6. He'll have a huge change in character that will cause people to see him in a whole new light. --Fyre Wood, who proudly waves the N.I.N.E flag and supports her stud, Neville. (yes i like Neville.. scary, eh?) From jtdogberry at hotmail.com Thu Oct 24 16:39:54 2002 From: jtdogberry at hotmail.com (jtdogberry) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:39:54 -0000 Subject: Fifth Wheel or house intermixing stud? (was Re: Neville ?greatness expected?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45735 > Fyre Wood (me) replies: > > HOORAY! A NEVILLE TOPIC... OKAY MY CAPS LOCK BUTTON IS STUCK AND I > APPOLOGISE... okay, fixed it. =) > > I think that Neville will do something great in the future, though what that "great" > thing is, is still unknown. Yep, that goes for both of use (begins to oil WINCH) > > Neville has always been considered the fifth wheel of the Gryffindor Boys. > While Seamus/Dean and Ron/Harry are always off together as friends, poor > Neville is left all alone. > > Or is he? > > We know for a fact that he's good at Herbology, so perhaps he made friends > with a few of the Hufflepuffs from Herbology or another class. He could have > friends we don't even know about from other houses, due to Harry being so > stuck on himself and his problems. > > If he has enough guts to get a date to a dance before Harry/Ron, why not go > make friends from other houses =). > > If someone had told me they lived with their Grandmother, I would have > immediately asked what happened to his/her parents. But NONE of the > Gryffindors do that. That would be really intresting because we know so very little about the Ravenclaws. I would like that to happen. I also think its so silly that they don't have friend outside their own house. In some respects I think it's wrong. Someone mentioned that Neville is under the imperious curse. I've got to say I don't belive that rumour at all, it has faults (it wears off like it did with Ron) and no noe has seen book 5 apart from JKR Finwitch I agree with you when you said that Harry had too much on his mind to worry about Neville, but I would like to know how Neville reacted after hearing the news. The way I see that unforgiving curse lesson is that Neville knew who it was but had no proof so as a warning to "Moody" he raised his hand, after all he never answered anything unless it was herbology so to all of a sudden do this must of had another motive. But "Moody" warned him to keep his mouth shut by the demostration. That my opoin anyway. Finwitch said Neville's unfocused and uncontrolled with his magic. Some of this might have to do with him using his parents' wand (Just guessing it is so) and his mental trauma he'll overcome. But one thing: Only Neville has ever had uncontrolled, accidental magic at Hogwarts! (And only in third book after starting Hogwarts things *just happen* to Harry... while it happens *all the time* to Neville...) Like the cauldrons, and again I'm going to bring up the point that all other refrences to faulty cauldrons are that they leak e.g Percy's report, the pub etc, I think the melting thing is going to play a big part later on. I would also know about Neville's mother. I still find it very strange that she is not mentioned by name and that she was tortured second. I think it was his mother who knew about Voldie and her husband was covering for her. TTFN Dogberry, standing next to Fyre waving a home made NINE banner. From anakinbester at hotmail.com Thu Oct 24 17:30:00 2002 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 17:30:00 -0000 Subject: Robes and other Clothing In-Reply-To: <196.f8304aa.2ae94756@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45736 Steve Wrote: >I just can't picture any modern kid muggle (especially) or magic >wearing Dumbledore/Merlin robes on a daily basis. You simply aren't >going to get a few hundred pre-teen and teenage boys to go around all >day in dresses; wizards or no wizards. Ah but see, you can't because in _our_ world that not typical. For men here, that is culturally atypical, but if as many people as JKR indicates wear robes, then it's not going to atypical, and it's not going to be an affront on a guy's masculinity. When robes were the fashion, guys wore robe things (yes that's the technical word for it -_-;; ). It wasn't an issue, and you didn't look girly. In fact there are different cuts for robes that are inherently more masculine and feminine. Now, what about muggle born wizards who bring in their sense of fashion? I will admit that I doubt the modern wizard robes are identical to Robes worn in the 13th-16th centuries. As a fan artist myself, when I drew MWPP in non school robes I tend to have patterns are designs that are faintly 70'ish etc. I'm sure there are muggle influences, but I always imagined the robe as much a standard of dress as jeans are here in the USA. You just accessorize it differently or have name brand or cheap knockoffs. Or hand made as also seems to be the case. As for muggle children wearing muggle clothes, a suspect to some extent they would, unless their parents buy them a whole new wardrobe. However, think, most kids join the Wizard World at 11. You're going to want to fit in. Witness Harry's worries about fitting in and all. I think any kid is quickly going to adapt the norm of dressing, to some extent, for the place in which they live. Plus, they're being assimilated into Wizarding Culture, so they'd likely have an easier time getting over the whole robe=dress=girly issue that I think is a major reason why HP fans seem to have an issue with the robes. (on artisticalley, the subject of what you drew them wearing as been a topic) >I've done some research on medieval clothing and find that virtually >no one but the extremely rich and priviledge, and monk of religious >orders worn the free flowing full length dress-like robes. Even in the >cases where I did find rich men dressed in multi-layered robes, the >main outer robe appeared to be an outer garment. They were still >wearing other non-underwear type clothing underneath. *nods* And, I fully imagine that wizards wear some loose fitting trousers and perhaps some pull over shirts. Just because one guys likes a nice breeze doesn't mean everyone does =P Ellen has already covered what all can go under/over a robe, so I won't repeat it. So, having something under the standard black issues robe, doesn't bug me; however, I have issues with the trousers and shirts looking so very, very muggle modern. Why couldn't the movie have based the uniform more on an older style of dress? They seemed to have no problems with the costuming in Diagon Alley. >So, I highly suspect that the movie got most of the costumes pretty >close. In Diagon Alley, maybe. The school uniforms will always be a sore point with me. Eloise Wrote: >Someone on this site once quoted the reason for the film's change to >(academic) gowns over school uniform being to do with the fact that >all those >plain black work robes would result in a sea of black which would >not worked >cinematically. I can see that as a valid reason to not have pure black uniforms, but I does not, for me, justify having a normal muggle school uniform on. I mean, I've sent plenty of fan art that more creatively dealt with the issue of distinguishing houses on robes, and adding color than the movie did. My personal guess is that they didn't want the clothes to stray that far from the norm. Rona and Harry running around in full length robes probably disrupts some ones happy little norm of what guys wear -_- My other issue was, why oh why was Ron in muggle clothes? Harry, I can see, Hermione I can see! That would simply be what they packed leaving home (All though Harry suddenly found muggle clothes at Hogwarts that fit him... I guess magic was involved) I know Ron gets a sweater and all, but is clothes along with Fred and Georges really irked me, especially since in the GoF, Harry worries that about Molly and Arthur because they've never worn anything that his uncle would consider normal. Apparently they could have just asked their children, because their children have a fine understanding of Muggle clothes . . . I don't know; to me the Weasley's don't seem the most muggle proficient family, as friendly and nice as they are. I just never imagine Ron running about without some kind of wizard "oddness" to what he wears. Sorry *L* sense I draw a lot, and I love fashion and odd clothing, this is something I've though on a lot. In case anyone cares, I tend to go for a Renaissance style, like what I see in the works of Rapheal and then think about ways to modernize that. For the school uniform I've not got anything definite , but right now I'm using a black robe with a gathered coller that has a clasp in the color of the house, and then the robe is lined in the house colors. Under that they wear baggy/gathered pants and boot looking shoes. It's kinda a unisex look *shrugs* -Ani From jodel at aol.com Thu Oct 24 17:48:55 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:48:55 EDT Subject: Moaning Myrtle's Bathroom Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45737 Ellen Anglin writes; >>As I have pointed out before, Moaning Myrtles bathroom certinaly hasn't been around since the 11th century, so who put the snake on the faucet? Heck- Who installed the trick sink? Thre must have been an Heir about before Tom Riddle....or at least "Slytherins Plumber"<< Actually, the *bathroom* probably has been around that long. The concept of the "waste pipes" to the lake would have come over with the Romans. And once a "channel" was in place it might have been doable to reproduce it magically without having to rebuild the entire supporting wall. I suspect that Myrtle's bathroom (and all the others at Hogwarts) has undergone considerable modification throughtout the centuries. First, channels would have been added for expanded need, then others would have been created for "water in" as well as "waste out" once someone came up with the idea. Which may have been quite early. (The earliest implimentation of a sink would have been a "dry" trough for washing with just a drainhole. The water for washing lives in a tank on the roof or an upper floor and is heated magically at need.) None of this is so far a concept for an 11th-century immigrant from the Mediteranean to have not encountered before. Or for some other member of the design and construction crew to have encountered. The actual fittings in the room would also have been updated at various points. (I get the distinct impression that the most recent may have been in the 19th century.) As well as the addition of actual pipes within the original dry stonework channels. The "dud" sink is not so different from the rest, actually. The water inflow line is false ("That tap never worked") and the drain goes to the passage under the lake rather than the lake itself. The amount of water expected to drain down a false sink (at some point someone would probably have emptied things down it) would not significantly damage the passage. If a false sink was in place by the time Slytherin left, difficult as it is to believe, it is at least *scantly* possible that the room fittings have been transfigured along with the rest and no one ever took the responsibility to figure out why that tap never worked. I agree with whoever suggested that the snake scratched on the dud tap may have been done by Riddle, rather than left by Slytherin. -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Thu Oct 24 17:48:58 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:48:58 EDT Subject: Robes and Other Clothing/Magical Technology Message-ID: <1bf.11fc6ed7.2ae98c8a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45738 But we HAVE a reasonable starting point as to what wizards (and witches) are likely to wear under robes. And it ain't medieval. Can't recall exactly where in Rowling (possibly one of the "school books") it was stated, but wasn't the date of 1697 given as the point at which the Wizarding World finally secluded itself from Muggle society and went into hiding? Up to that time, most magicals would have tried to blend in with the Muggles around them (with, no doubt, some notable exceptions). Since that time, there would have been very arbitrary and uneven adoption or rejection of Muggle stules. For example: 18th century fashions look pretty much of a muchness in their basic shapes up until the last 20 years or so to our eyes. There was a lot of variation in hairstyling and silly ways of poufing out one's skirts, but the underlying bodice/skirt/sleeves for women and breeches/waiscoat/coat for men seems to have held remarkably steady. And it grew fairly smoothly out of the styles which were worn at the turn of that century. Consequently, by around the end of the 18th century, I suspect that mosty wizards and witches would have dressed like rather eccentric country people, woefully out of fashion, but still dressed in a manner somewhat recognizable to Muggle eyes. Some of the Muggle trends may even have crept into usage over the first 100 years without anyone even being all that much aware of it. (Both Muggles and magicals were largely turned loose to create their own styles at that point in time. Apart from a few tailors and dressmakers patronized by the Courts of Europe the fashion "industry" was still fairly rudimentary.) The 19th century would have been where the styles really started diverging. The Muggle fashion industry had really gotten off the ground by then and communications were good enough to have most of the international "jet set" all pretty much in step with one another. It needs to be pointed out that it was the 19th centruy in which the largest divergance existed between "clothing" and "fashion". Where, during the 18th century a certain number of Muggle style innovations had plenty of time to creep into wizarding usage, in the 19th the styles came and went too quickly for anything other than the basic materials to make very much of an impact. I suspect that the 19th century saw mostly an adoption of the Muggles' new machine-spun threads and machine-woven fabrics which were plentiful and cheap rather than Muggle dress styles, per se. I rather suspect that the mental image of wizarding society one should be carrying around is not all that far off of, say, Arthur Rackham. It is probable that the steady if small influx of Muggle-born wizards and witches served as the primary source of exposure to Muggle trends. But it certainly seems that someone in the WW has been paying attention, since the WW has adopted some Muggle concepts, even if it implements them magically. For one, so long as the Floo network was in place it is unlikely that anyone would have thought of launching the Wizarding Wireless network pimarily for entertainment. One crutial thing that we do NOT know, is just when the charmed quill that records all magical births went into service. And who thought THAT one up, and WHAT kind of situation was going on which allowed it to be implemented? Because, right there, you have what was probably the single most paradigm-changing element to have been introduced into the wizarding world since the great seclusion. Because the ONLY purpose which that quill could have served, that was not already being served quite adequately withihn the community was to identify *every* Muggle-born magical child born within its sensory range. Was it the fact that the enclosure act was driving people out of the countryside into the cities and creating such a flury of cross-breeding that the resulting sudden rise in the number of magical births was making it dangerously difficult to keep their concealments in place? This is why I have a gut-level conviction that the quill was a piece of Magical technology which went into effect concurrant with the Industrial Revolution. Because that period was one in which Britian had a population explosion in general, and the general stiring up and recombination of the available genetic potential, the higher birthrate and the beginnings of getting a handle on reducing infant mortality are all elements which would have contributed to a porportional increase of magical births within the general population, as more potential parents who were carrying incomplete sets of wizarding genes began marrying each other and reproducing. Given the generally crowded and unsafe conditions that the working class Britton lived in during the Industrial Revolution, I would imagine that the (perhaps newly-formed?) Accidental Magical Reversal squad was being given a real workout and targeting potential trouble spots may have become a priority. -JOdel From Malady579 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 24 18:35:30 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 18:35:30 -0000 Subject: Robes and other Clothing In-Reply-To: <196.f8304aa.2ae94756@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45739 I feel greatly compelled to enter this discussion since I currently working to receive a master's in historic costume. Unfortunately, though, my specialty is 19th century, but I still have taken classes on the rest and have tons of books on the subjects. Which now speaking of them, I have tried to find some shred of evidence on the history of witch's traditional clothing and found none. Hmmm, seems academia does not like to record rumored and possible fictional costumes. Oh well. I shall try my best with what I have. Eloise wrote: >>Otherwise, anything approaching the everyday wearing of *gowns* is, I *think* (although I'm sure someone out there will correct me!) confined to a handful of universities. At Oxford and Cambridge they are (or at least were) required when taking exams and for formal halls (dinners) and students at St Andrews also wear gowns, although in their case, red ones.<< As far as I know those are the only two universities that do not wear academic gowns just for graduation, so I think you are right. Besides, if the Potter robes are based on academic robes, then Oxford and Cambridge are the two universities noted to be where the tradition started. Around the thirteenth century, certain professions like doctors and universities wanted to distinguish themselves from regular citizens. The universities wrote to Rome, they are Church institutions after all, and asked permission to "fix" their own costume, which were modeled after the religious habits. By this act, the incoming Bachelors wore "full, sleeveless, entirely closed capes". Over the gown, the students were allowed to wear capes with hood. [Quotes and facts taken from: Boucher, Francois. _20,000_Years_of_Fashion_] Given that the costume is based on a religious view of simplicity of form, it can reasonably be assumed that they are wearing little else under those robes. Besides, hygiene and cleanliness, by our standards, was unheard of then. We also have painting and pictures depicting people wearing gowns with nothing underneath. Maybe out of poverty, maybe out of apathy. Not sure really. Our modern idea of an academic gown is a bit tainted because of graduation ceremonies and the inner desire for us to wear clothes underneath them. Given that the Potter kids are modern in their views of modesty, by wearing muggle clothes when not in class, I think it is safe to say they are wearing something under those robes. If not then quidditch adds a new level of thrill for the students. Besides, Harry is said to be wearing a t-shirt under his quidditch robes in PoA, Ch 13. He took off his wizard robes to put on the quidditch robes and put his wand in the pocket. As to whether older wizards and witches wear clothes under their robes, well, that is actually addressed in GoF at the QuidCup. Remember old Archie at the water tap? He had on that long flowery nightgown and refused to put on pants because, and I quote, "I like a healthy breeze 'round my privates, thanks." (GoF, Ch 7) Safe to say he, at least, is not letting anything come between him and his wizard robes. [I still giggle along with Hermione there. I could so see grandpa wizard saying that. :) ] Then Eloise rationally continued: >>>But in the case of the Potterverse, JKR is surely just drawing on the traditional picture of the robe-wearing witch or wizard (robe in this sense being an over-the-head, dress-type garment). I'm not really sure where this comes from, or how old the image is although I would hazard that where wizards are concerned, it is to do with the exotic, oriental garb adopted by stage magicians and the fact that witchcraft implies ritual, which implies ritual-type garments. Where does the pointy hat come from?<<< Well I did a little on-line research since my costume library here seems to have some holes, and this is what I came up with... These two sites claim the pointed hat and color black originated: http://mysticfire.freeyellow.com/facts.html http://www.petzfamilyschool.com/hallhistorty.htm "It is believed that witches wore black to be like the night. The cone shape of the witch's hat was believed to direct energy from higher dimensions to her mind and down through her body." Interesting. Mystical. Sounds like a story made up by Monty Python villagers to me though. Next, and only other site, I found that might shed some light was: http://www.widdershins.org/vol6iss8/oestara01.07.html "There is another, commonly held belief that the pointed hat originated with another persecuted group in Europe, the Jews. While Jews did wear pointed headgear, most scholars now believe these hats were not a likely source for the witch's pointed hat. After all, pointed hats were fairly common throughout the Middle Ages and Renaissance." Ok rule that out... "This fact leads us to the source I find to be most believable, and most mundane, for the Pointy Hat Look. During the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries, commoners in Wales and England often wore pointed hats. As fashions changed, the last to retain the old styles were the rural and peasant folk, who were considered "backward" by higher society and were usually the ones accused of heresy and witchcraft. Much as we today have stereotypes of the sort of student who might commit violence at a high school, so did the medieval people have their ideas of what sort of person might be a witch." "Along these lines, Gary Jensen, a professor of sociology at Vanderbilt University, postulates a connection between the persecution of Quakers in America and the stereotypical appearance of witches in our folklore. Quakers did wear pointed hats, and the negative image of witches wearing conical hats in America became common about the same time anti-Quaker sentiment was at a peak. Quakers were thought by some to consort with demons and practice black magic, things also associated with the early American view of witches. Once again, an easily recognized symbol of an oppressed minority may have become generalized to a group equated with them." So, the idea of pointed hats comes from old fashions still worn by groups despite the new fashion trends. Makes sense really. Often when someone makes them self distinguishable from the crowd, they are associated and labeled accordingly. Some rumor started long before and was picked up again and again over time. I know in the current LoTR trilogy, the costume department did not want to put Gandalf in the typical pointed hat, but finally settled to do so because they thought the books originally helped to greatly propagate the imagery. So, what can be said? Basically that Hogwarts in a academic institution, so it is possible that the robes are based after that historic trend. Or maybe, since even the graduated witch and wizards wear robes, the idea is based on the historic rumors. The gown in question is a very basic garment that has been around ever since civilization. It essentially is a shift after all. I will say that by giving the students robes, which cover the entire body, JKR does allow for our little hero to hide the fact he is wearing really baggy clothes. We are given no reason to believe that Harry is not still wearing Dudley's old clothes. The only other clothes we know him to have is the Weasley sweaters. By giving his a shapeless robe, JKR is removing his shame. Had to sprinkle a bit of meta-thinking for good measure anyway. :) Melody Who should spend more time on her thesis than on Harry Potter, but somehow does not find it as compelling From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu Oct 24 18:59:22 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 18:59:22 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Sirius Black Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45740 Sirius Black (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Rocky Raccoon_ by the Beatles) Dedicated to all those Sirius Black freaks out there. Hear the original here: www.geocities.com/michellesrockinatoz/RealAudio.html Now somewhere in the wizarding world of England There lived a warlock named Sirius Black One day he old friend turned out to be a spy Caused the Potters to die, Sirius didn't like that He said, "I'm gonna kill that rat" The next day he appearated there Where this person stood in a Muggle neighborhood Sirius Black, ready to attack This man who turned into a traitor Sirius had come holding his wand To A.K. him for his betrayal This person, turned out, was really a lout For Voldemort he tattletaled His name was Peter, last name Pettigrew But Sirius knew him as Wormtail Was Secret Keeper, knew where James and Lil' were Now Wormtail knew he was in trouble Sirius scowled, and then with a growl He said, "Wormtail, this is a duel" But Wormtail was sly, "How could you?" he cried And blasted the street right behind him Now Sirius Black, he finally cracked And started to laugh hysterically Wormtail, he made his escape Killing several Muggles in his wake And it looked like, yes it looked like Sirius was guilty The Aurors came in and arrested him Sent Black to jail without trial Put the wrong man into Azkaban And there Sirius stayed for a while -Gail B...who gained a lot more respect for Mr. Black by writing this filk... _________________________________________________________________ Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From pacific_k at hotmail.com Thu Oct 24 19:08:12 2002 From: pacific_k at hotmail.com (pacificlippert) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:08:12 -0000 Subject: Robes and other Clothing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45742 oops! I accidently inserted my comments above what I was quoting. Sorry about that. Ani actually wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "anakinbester" wrote: > My other issue was, why oh why was Ron in muggle clothes? Harry, I > can see, Hermione I can see! That would simply be what they packed > leaving home (All though Harry suddenly found muggle clothes at > Hogwarts that fit him... I guess magic was involved) > > I know Ron gets a sweater and all, but is clothes along with Fred and > Georges really irked me, especially since in the GoF, Harry worries > that about Molly and Arthur because they've never worn anything that > his uncle would consider normal. > > Apparently they could have just asked their children, because their > children have a fine understanding of Muggle clothes . . . > I don't know; to me the Weasley's don't seem the most muggle > proficient family, as friendly and nice as they are. I just never > imagine Ron running about without some kind of wizard "oddness" to > what he wears. > > -Ani JKR mentions in one of the books that even though Molly and Arthur wear robes all the time, all the kids wear muggle clothes during the holidays. I can't find the reference now, of course d: And the Weasley's live fairly close to a town--Molly in GoF actually goes to the PO in town and calls for taxis to come to their house. So maybe it's only Arthur who doesn't know much about muggles. Which only raises more questions about who knows what and why. For instance, Hagrid is mentioned as wearing an overcoat, and he has an "ugly, hairy suit" for best, not dress robes. Maybe JKR hasn't decided how much the WW knows about the non-WW, and so lets it vary from person to person. Karie From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Thu Oct 24 17:39:26 2002 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 17:39:26 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Neville_=96_greatness_expected=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45743 --- In reply to what "Darla" wrote about NEVILLE: Absolutley. I think that's exactly whatis going to happen. I'm not sure we can necessarily expect it immediatley in the next book but yeah.I think that is the reason he was placed in Gryffindor, when he displays some very Hufflepuff characteristics at the moment. I know peple will doubtlessly point out what Dumbledor said at the end of Book 1 about it being brave to stand up to one's friends, but that seemed to me to be the only indication so far, and quite minor. The only particualr purpose in JK making Dumbledor deliver those words is foreshadowing IMO. He could have simply given more points to Harry to ensure a defeat of Slytherin, which seemed to be his aim but he did not. (To go off topic a bit, seems unfair and likely to foster even more hatred of authority, sense of revenge and jealousy of Harry in the Slytherins to pull a stunt like this. Yes it was brave of Harry and co. to battle Quirrelmort, but I presume there is no list in the staffroom of what to give points for, which includes "defeat of new defence against the dark arts teachers with purple turbans who share a head with Voldemort." Therefore he must have decided what points to award arbitarily and I assume you can't be a headmaster and a great wizard if you can't count.)I think Dumbledor wanted to try to teach Neville the value of his own small initial acts of "deliberate" bravery. (dealing with his parents situation, is though brave, not realy a choice) and possibly the other students too. Snapesangel From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 19:36:29 2002 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Robes and other Clothing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021024193629.66862.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45744 --- anakinbester wrote: > My other issue was, why oh why was Ron in muggle > clothes? Harry, I > can see, Hermione I can see! That would simply be > what they packed > leaving home (All though Harry suddenly found muggle > clothes at > Hogwarts that fit him... I guess magic was involved) > > > I know Ron gets a sweater and all, but is clothes > along with Fred and > Georges really irked me, especially since in the > GoF, Harry worries > that about Molly and Arthur because they've never > worn anything that > his uncle would consider normal. > > Apparently they could have just asked their > children, because their > children have a fine understanding of Muggle clothes > . . . I believe the kids wear robes at Hogwarts, there is nothing to dispute this. Robes are their uniforms. But GOF did say that the Weasley children wore muggle clothes during the summer. It didn't say what kind of muggle clothing, but it did say muggle clothing. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From anakinbester at hotmail.com Thu Oct 24 19:43:18 2002 From: anakinbester at hotmail.com (anakinbester) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:43:18 -0000 Subject: Robes and other Clothing In-Reply-To: <20021024193629.66862.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45745 Rebecca wrote (and Karie pointed out the same thing in another post) >I believe the kids wear robes at Hogwarts, there is >nothing to dispute this. Robes are their uniforms. >But GOF did say that the Weasley children wore muggle >clothes during the summer. It didn't say what kind of >muggle clothing, but it did say muggle clothing. > *nods* You're both right. I stand corrected. Ok then I officially disagree with JKR's consistancy, but I suppose I don't get a say in it *L* Hmmm maybe Muggle clothes are cheaper to get than Wizard clothes, or maybe it is a fashion. Perhaps, after the Voldemort years, it became fashionable to dress in muggle style to kind of snub you nose at what he tried to do. That seems like a semi normal response to years muggle and mix blood persecution by an extremely crazy elite. -Ani PS: Don't worry Karie, I actually though you were quoting me and had just mispelled my real name, Katie. Sometimes hotmail lists me either as Kathryn or Katie =P From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 20:04:42 2002 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Subject: Re: Arabella Figg as Secret Keeper (or, rather, not) In-Reply-To: <1035424881.3586.9755.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021024200442.63357.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45746 Julie: --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Aesha Williams" wrote: Anyway, if she was > the SK, I don't think it would matter if Harry was at The Burrow all summer > or not- the DE's and Voldemort still wouldn't know where he was. And so it > gets a little hairy (pardon the pun)- is there another form of the Fidelus? > Or some similar charm? I mean, he's at Hogwarts and obviously other people > can see him there, so any one of them could tell their parents they went to > school with Harry and everyone would know. (because doesn't the Fidelus, in > effect, make people invisible to all except their SK?) > > Aesha I'm sorry if I don't make total sense today, as I have the flu. But I wanted to point out that several wizards already knew where Harry was, bowed to him in shops, could have followed Harry home. Harry mentions this in year 1. He even recognizes one of them when he meets him again at the pub with Hagrid. So as to Harry being hidden all those years, I just don't think so. Not unless for some reason as you get near the Dursley's it becomes a non-existant place. me: Moreover, (forgive me for not being exact and quote precisely here, but i'm in the office) i seem to recall that even Voldie knows. Didn't he tell his DEs at the graveyard, while explaining the whole story of his resurrection, that while Harry was at his relatives he couldn't harm him, that's why he had to get a loyal DE in Hogwarts? Or something like that? It's my impression that Harry being at the Dursleys is not a secret, everybody seems to know, therefore no need for a secret keeper. It must be some other kind of old magic. Maria __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 20:28:41 2002 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Robes and other Clothing In-Reply-To: <1035466282.2161.79640.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021024202841.28562.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45747 Well, thanks everyone for the nice links and stories you have posted regarding this topic, all very interesting. But if what we want to know is what JKR is thinking of when she mentions robes, why not look at her own drawings? I wasn't as lucky as to see the special Harry Potter and me, but luckily there are some pictures of this show in our photo section, which is here: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/hpforgrownups/lst?.dir=/Harry+Potter+%26+Me&.src=gr&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/hpforgrownups/lst%3f.dir=/Harry%2bPotter%2b%2526%2bMe%26.src=gr%26.view=t There, now we know :) Maria __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Oct 24 21:35:09 2002 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:35:09 -0000 Subject: Fifth Wheel or house intermixing stud? (was Re: Neville ?greatness expected?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45748 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jtdogberry" wrote: > > > Fyre Wood (me) replies: > > > > > > I think that Neville will do something great in the future, though > what that "great" > > thing is, is still unknown. > > Yep, that goes for both of use (begins to oil WINCH) In fact, we are already at least three ;-). I completely agree with you in this point. > Someone mentioned that Neville is under the imperious curse. I've got > to say I don't belive that rumour at all, it has faults (it wears off > like it did with Ron) and no noe has seen book 5 apart from JKR Somehow I begin to believe the Imperius curse rumour. When I read book 4 the first time, I really wondered, why the fake Moody took Neville to his office. He could have given him the book in front of Harry, maybe even with a clever commentary about breathing under water. There must have been another reason. But maybe it was just the top of Barty jrs. sadistic behaviour, (consoling the boy he teased during the lesson). And I also want to know, if he really put Neville under the curse in his office, why didn't he tell him, to give Harry some informations about the second task? But I am absolutely sure the Imperius curse will be more important in later books. Imagine the pain, if a good character hurts or even kills someone he cares about, while he is under the imperius curse. Neville is a possible candidate, but so is nearly everyone. I've heard the rumour (sadly, I don't know, if JK Rowling herself said it), that the next Quidditch- Team member will be the last person we expext to be and then somenthing about the first flying lessons. If these statement is true, it clearly seems to point out Neville as the member. And then there is the sentence in book 4, when Moody put the imperius curse on the class, that Neville did some gymnastics he wouldn't be able to do, when he is not under imperius. This could be some forshadowing. > The way I see that unforgiving curse > lesson is that Neville knew who it was but had no proof so as a > warning to "Moody" he raised his hand, after all he never answered > anything unless it was herbology so to all of a sudden do this must > of had another motive. But "Moody" warned him to keep his mouth shut > by the demostration. That my opoin anyway. I don't think so. It's just not Neville's character. He might not be the brightest student, but he isn't that stupid, to warn a dangerous lunatic, that he knows about his true idendity and go with him in his office short time later. However I do think, it is possible that he knew something, without realizing it. Maybe an odd feeling he had seeing Moody. Maybe it was the way Moody reacted during the cruciatus curse on the spiders. Maybe Neville had seen it before, the day when his parents were attacked? This would explain, why he hesisted to follow Moody in the office, but then did, because he didn't trust his feelings and tried to act reasonably. > > > I would also know about Neville's mother. I still find it very > strange that she is not mentioned by name and that she was tortured > second. I think it was his mother who knew about Voldie and her > husband was covering for her. Oh yes, I want to know the reason, why her first name isn't mentioned, too. But I still (want to?) think, Neville's mother is Florence :-). Hickengruendler, whose favourite character is Neville and who of course also don't think, that Neville is evil. From rmatovic at ssk.com Thu Oct 24 21:51:26 2002 From: rmatovic at ssk.com (Rebecca M) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:51:26 -0000 Subject: Neville greatness expected? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45749 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "finwitch" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., kaarlo moran wrote: > > > But Neville?...he's always reminded every time he visits his parents > > during the holidays of what he lost. > > Oh he is. I also think that Neville has more memories of his parents > than Harry. Good memories. Harry has one memory of his parents: Their > death. > But Neville is the same age as Harry and his parents were tortured around the time of Harry's parents' deaths, so Neville's memories can't be that much clearer than Harry. He's been raised by his grandmother and visited his incapacitated parents throughout his life -- that's his primary memory of them. Rebecca From smiller_92407 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 22:55:07 2002 From: smiller_92407 at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:55:07 -0000 Subject: Why the Knight Bus? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45750 I don't understand the WW appeal of the Knight Bus. Other than a plot device, what is the purpose? Presumably, all adult wizards can apparate. Or is this something that is only available to those who can prove skill and qualify for a license? Well, that is maybe the subject of another post. Anyway, assuming that all adults can apparate, you would think that they could apparate to any destination that the bus could go, even if it might take several hops. And it would seem to me that apparating to a destination would be quicker than going by bus. Otherwise, there is Floo powder, broomsticks, and even magic motorcycles, not to mention the train. If the purpose of the Knight bus is to rescue stranded non-apparating wizards, such as underage ones, then it would seem that there would not be enough business to justify such a service. But then, Harry was apparently the only underage passenger on the bus that night. So, really - why would those adult passengers on the bus choose that mode of transportation? What service does it provide that cannot be got cheaper, easier, (and safer!) another way? Any ideas? ~ Constance Vigilance From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 24 19:36:49 2002 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:36:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Robes and other Clothing Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021024143606.0527a010@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45751 >Eloise wrote: > >>Otherwise, anything approaching the everyday wearing of *gowns* is, >I *think* (although I'm sure someone out there will correct me!) >confined to a handful of universities. At Oxford and Cambridge they >are (or at least were) required when taking exams and for formal halls >(dinners) and students at St Andrews also wear gowns, although in >their case, red ones.<< Apparently, scholars at Winchester and King's School (Canterbury) wore academic gowns on a daily basis at least into the 1980's.[1] Masters, of course, wore gowns at many schools.[2] Jim [1] Davidson, Alexander. Blazers, Badges & Boaters: A Pictorial History of School Uniform. Horndean, Hants.: Scope Books, Ltd. 1990, p. 21, 23. A photograph of a contemporary Winchester scholar in his gown is on p. 25. [2] Davidson, p. 104-108. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From palantir at acss.net.au Fri Oct 25 00:26:09 2002 From: palantir at acss.net.au (Jonathan) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:26:09 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why the Knight Bus? References: Message-ID: <008b01c27bbd$1f8d8940$0400a8c0@qld.bigpond.net.au> No: HPFGUIDX 45752 Constant Vigilence wrote: << So, really - why would those adult passengers on the bus choose that mode of transportation? What service does it provide that cannot be got cheaper, easier, (and safer!) another way? Any ideas? >> Well, we know that there was a 'Madam Marsh' travelling on the Knight Bus, I've just checked the passage a couple of times and haven't noticed any other mention of her age. She did look a bit green though. ^^ Anyway, if most 'adults' can apparate, and the rest can either fly a broom stick, or use floo powder, or something of the sort. Though, take this for example, what if you were a Witch who could apparate (such as Madam Marsh) who got drunk, and doesn't want to apparate in fear of being splinched; is also not near any wizarding place with floo-networked fireplace, or even floo powder; and doesn't have a broom or port-key. So, it would seem that she would take the Knight Bus? Maybe you can buy a 'year round' ticket, for people who don't know how to apparate, who get sick on broom sticks, and travel to places where there aren't any fireplace that's on the network. We know, for a fact, that there is a floo regulation panel, and maybe not many people are on the floo network. There are quite a lot of reasons that I can think of, and maybe they don't get many customers. I can think, though, that they'd get at least one or two customers a day, and it's a magical bus so I doubt it would cost anything to run or something of the likes. Constant Vigilence also wrote: << and even magic motorcycles >> One doubts the legality of such a device. ;-) Other items to add to that list would have to be flying horses. And Buckbeak, too. ^^ - Jonathan (so hungry he could eat a flying horse; off to search for food) From conquistas2000 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 25 00:55:25 2002 From: conquistas2000 at yahoo.com (conquistas2000) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:55:25 -0000 Subject: Why the Knight Bus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45753 Susan Miller wrote: I don't understand the WW appeal of the Knight Bus. Other than a plot device, what is the purpose? Presumably, all adult wizards can apparate. And it would seem to me that apparating to a destination would be quicker than going by bus. Otherwise, there is Floo powder, broomsticks, and even magic motorcycles, not to mention the train. What service does it provide that cannot be got cheaper, easier, (and safer!) another way? Any ideas? Conquistas: I assume that the Knight bus service the same clientele that muggle buses services, mainly the poor. In big cities, its usually only the poor that take the bus, because other modes of transporation is just more expensive. But some do take it out of convience, especialy in big cities where parking can be a problem. Apperate. Well, you'll need to pass a test and get a license to apperate. Thus, its possible for there to be wizards/witches who cannot pass the test, or have a suspended license. Floo powder needs a both ends to have a fireplace, in addition to having the fireplace connected to the Floo Network. (Is there a maintaince fee for the Floo link?) Plus, its not certain how much Floo powder costs. What if the destination doesn't have a fireplace? Broomsticks are comparable to automobiles in the muggle world (without the age restriction). And thus, just like the muggle world (err the US specifically), where everybody have a car. But its a sweeping statement, and sometimes the very poor cannot obtain a car for one reason or another (eg illegal immigrants w/o documentation to obtain a license). Plus a witch/wizard flying out in the muggle world is bound to attract some attention, unless there's a way for the witch/wizard to hide him/herself either by flying high in the clouds or with invisiblity cloak. And not all witches/wizards are adept at flying (Neville?) especially high above the clouds where the air is thin and breathing becomes difficult. Magic motorcycle. Other that Sirius, we don't know anyone else with a flying motorcycle. Okay, there's Aurthur with his flying car. But currently in the wizard world, having an enchanted muggle object (flying or therwise) is ILLEGAL. Conquistas - The lurker From msbonsai at mninter.net Fri Oct 25 00:35:31 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:35:31 -0000 Subject: Why the Knight Bus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45754 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Miller" wrote: > I don't understand the WW appeal of the Knight Bus. Other than a plot > device, what is the purpose? > snip: other modes: apparate. > Floo powder, broomsticks, and even magic motorcycles, not to mention > the train. > ~ Constance Vigilance My wondering thoughts (still have the flu) Seemed like besides Harry, they were mainly older wizards. apparate: tales of 1/2 apparated bodies falls into my memory. I also remember not everyone is able to apparate. Perhaps as you get "older" it seems more dangerous? Floo powder: Face full of soot, swirly around about to loose my lunch, elbows and knees knocked on other fireplaces, being thrown to my knees on landing . . . not pleasant. broomsticks: can't be completely comfortable, or reasonable to carry everything one might need. Some people probably never probably learn to control it. Not to mention the possibility of being seen by muggles. Magic motorcycles???? I believe we're talking something that is muggle in origination with some magic on it? Of course, this is my one argument with the knight bus. A tripple decker where magic has been used on it? Otherwise, how can it leap hundreds of miles at once, and then of course, whole barns and trees hopping out of it's way? Oh yes, and the motorcycles could possibly be seen by muggles. I have been kind of wondering how Sirius got away with having one. And then Hagrid borrowed it. While we have never heard what happened to it, I would think it was confiscated by the MOM. Trains: So far, we've only been told of the Hogwarts Express. We haven't heard of any other trains except the muggle ones, which most wizards don't seem to carry muggle money around, or want to travel with muggles. The Knight Bus jumps 100's of miles at once. Seems to be a bit faster. I suppose the Knight bus at least offers a chance of some sleep while getting from one destination to the other. And it's at night,(so it would seem) so some of those other modes of transportation might not be so great. They'd have to have their headlights on. Again, sorry if I'm rambling . . . stupid flu. Julie From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Oct 25 01:09:20 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:09:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Robes and other Clothing/ Neville greatness expected? Possible book 5 spoiler References: <20021023215653.85644.qmail@web41111.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <036c01c27bc3$26a9da20$739ecdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45755 Karie writes: > JKR mentions in one of the books that even though > Molly and Arthur wear robes all the time, all the kids > wear muggle clothes during the holidays. I can't find > the reference now, of course d: And the Weasley's > live fairly close to a town--Molly in GoF actually goes > to the PO in town and calls for taxis to come to their > house. So maybe it's only Arthur who doesn't know > much about muggles. So what's the deal with t-shirts? Do all Wizards wear them under their robes? Is it only Harry? Does he wear it only under Quidditch robes? Or under all robes? Rebecca writes: > But Neville is the same age as Harry and his parents were tortured > around the time of Harry's parents' deaths, so Neville's memories can't > be that much clearer than Harry. He's been raised by his grandmother > and visited his incapacitated parents throughout his life -- that's his > primary memory of them. Not necessarily. Neville's parents were only tortured after everyone thought it was all over, the DE's done away with, Voldemort vanished, peace had returned to the WW. Which is why it came as such a shock to the entire WW. Which means it had to be (in my mind) at least two or three years after the death of Harry's parents. Or else it wouldn't have been such a stunning event. Neville could've been as young as three, in which case it's true, he wouldn't remember much. However, he could've, in theory, been as old as five or six, in which case he'd remember a lot more about his parents. Or rather, his parents while sane. Laila writes: > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > > > Yeah, from what I understand, in book five Neville will surprise everyone. So far, I've heard that when Crouch was masquerading as Moody that he put Neville under cruciatus(?)(Remeber the part in the book where he gives him the herbology book? This is where it's supposed to happen) and that Neville will be doing some surprising things to come. I got this from hearsay... I read it on a site, someone who works at scholastic posted it. I don't know how true it actually is. I really, seriously doubt this is real. Since no one (NO ONE!) has seen a script. If Bloomsbury hasn't seen one, I'm sure Scholastic hasn't. It not only sounded a little, err, odd, far-fetched, etc., it also didn't sound, well, it was rather dull. They can't Imperious everyone, and that was used quite a bit in GoF. I think it needs a rest in OoP. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Oct 25 01:37:21 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:37:21 -0000 Subject: Robes and other Clothing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45756 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: BBoy_mn orginally said in short" > > ...huge snip.... > So, I highly suspect that the movie got most of the costumes pretty > close. > > ...equally huge snip.... > > Who knew from reading what people perceive as I child's book, I would > end up researching medievel cloths and swords, not to mention dozens > of other things I've research because of reading these books. > > JKR.... Thanks, it's been fun and educating. > > Just some thoughts. > > bboy_mn Wow, it really has been an education. Thanks to everyone who replied. Agreed or disagreed, it was fun and informative. First point- I confess that most of my worldly knowledge comes from movies and TV, and that is the source of my impression of schoolboy academic gowns/robes. In this groups photo section, I added a new album called 'School Robes'. In it are some still photos from the movie 'Lord of the Flies'. This is the 1963 release British made, all British case version of the film. [Note: moderators, feel free to delete these when you think they have served their purpose.] Note the first photo of boys in 'academic' over-robes including weird hats, and white collars. Observe the open front on the robe of the lead boy. You can see his school tie and white shirt. Next photo, the standard British school boy uniform. Following that, Boys in robes and regular school uniforms. Again, note the open front on the robe; you can see his shirt and school tie. Forth photo, note the boy in robes in the middle, you can see his legs and I would assume that under his robes he is wearing his traditional short pants schoolboy uniform. Keep in mind the these boys are shipwreaked on a deserted island in the Pacific. Again, I repeat, this is a British made movie with an all British cast. Filmed in 1961, released in 1963, although I don't know the exact date that the movie is taking place. That is, the date in movie time. Now, look at the next two photos from 'The Movie that will not be Named'. Especially, the last one. These do not look that much different that the 'school robes' in 'Lord of the Flies'. Slightly modernized, and without the short pants. The wizarding world, may not live a lifestyle consistent with the 20th Century but none the less, they do live in the 20th Century. If find it hard to believe that their clothing is 500 to 1,000 years behind the times. As a side note, notice what a terrible picture this is of Dan. Notice also that Ron's robe is a slightly different color and slightly different style than Harry's. Probably because it's second hand. So while I have no trouble with the staff, especially Dumbledore, wearing old style clothing. I still can't see the kids in completely Dumbledore/Merlin style free flowing dress-like primary clothing robes. But I guess we are all allowed to have our own vision as we read. I don't imply that they are all wearing absolute modern butt drooping baggy pants clothes. But given the overal wizard world as I see it, I have a hard time dating the students clothing back farther than be beginning of the 19th century. Dress robes are another matter, they could be very formal and very much in the Merlin robes tradition. Canon- Well, we have 'robes', but not much direct detail as far as the students. I have to assume, and I know assumptions aren't canon, that if the robes were too odd or extreme, you would have heard someone comment on it. Dean Thomas is a modern black muggle boy; hard to believe he's not going to comment about having to wear a dress everyday. Same with Harry, he grew up completely in the muggle world. As much as he wants to be a wizard, I can't believe his mind wouldn't have expressed some discomfort at wearing such odd clothing. The Movie(s)- I know it's not kosher here to refernece the movie but we have very few visual clues as to what JKR means by robes. The Sketches- Someone else mention the sketches in the groups 'Harry Potter and Me' photo album, but as far as I can tell, only adults are shown in robes. These robes appear to be similar to the robes you might see a modern Catholic Parish priest wearing in Britian (keep in mind that my window into Britain is a 19" Panasonic). I assume your parish priest wears pants under that ...errr... that.... whatever they call that thing. Note the Mirror of Erised- The man standing to the right rear of Harry's mother is dressed in a suit and tie. The older man standing behind Harry's father appears to be wearing a suit and tie. Very hard to tell though. It looks like his jacket only goes to just below the butt, and it looks like you can see the knot in his tie. Overal, this particular person is inconclusive. Harry's father appears to either be wearing an unusual shirt or a very light colored light weight over-robe. Conclusion (at least mine)- That the HP robes are in the tradition of academic robes as seen in the 'Lord of the Flies' photos. For someone living in England, images like this must be present in their lives, if in no other place than in a historical context. So I don't see boys freaking out over an academic style over-robe. To GulPlum: Thanks for clearing up my impression of Parliment. Quote GulPlum:(in part) Let's not get meta-textual here. :-) In the four books to date, there is no mention whatsoever of kids at Hogwarts wearing "trousers" (other than pyjamas) but "robes" are mentioned on almost every second page. ... ... ... Specifically, there are several instances of Harry taking off his "robes" and climbing into bed. -end GulPlum - this part- bboy_mn: To this, all I can respond with is that JKR is an extremely compact efficient writer. She doesn't waist 5 pages describing every glint of light, tactile sensation, and article of clothing as Harry gets dressed and undressed. It's off with his robes, on with his pajamas, then on with the story; no details. We are both making assumptions about what those missing details mean. I'm not invalidating your point, I'm simply saying there is room for interpretation. -end bboy_mn - this part- Quote GulPlum: (in part) There is no mention of his ever removing anything else (just for the sake of completeness, school uniforms are never, ever, referred to as "robes" in contemporary English, and AFAIK never have been). -end GulPlum - this part- bboy_mn: Hard to argue with that. I don't think I could interpret 'robes' as an all inclusive term for the robe and all the rest of the school uniform. But none the less, a 'robe' by definition is an over or outer garment which implies some undergarment beyond (in my opinion) underwear. That's how I see modern wizards wearing them, every much like a business man wears a suit coat. I picture the under clothing (regular clothing, not underwear) as being very old fashioned historical versions of shirts and pant. Still far removed from modern style clothing, but shirts and pants none the less. I can see some of the very old fashioned wizards wearing robes similar to the robes I imagine are worn by a parish priest for everyday use. The examples of over-robes in the historic costume sites made them look very much like a coat (in terms of use). I also fall back on my comment about JKR's efficient writing style. No need to mention details unless they move the plot along. -end bboy_mn - this part- Quote GulPlum again: Overall, then, I expect Hogwarts "robes" to be something akin to choristers' robes, and absolutely, definitely, not the tasteful grey trouser uniforms shown in TMTSNBNs. -end GulPLum - this part- bboy_mn: Ah... sorry Amerimuggle here. Could you explain a 'choristers' robe'. Sorry for showing my ingnorance. Thanks. -end bboy_mn- Well, a quick check of the message boards tells me that messages are building up faster then I'm responding, so I think I'll go ahead and post what I have now, and perhaps add more later. It's been fun. Thanks. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Oct 25 03:38:12 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 03:38:12 -0000 Subject: Neville greatness expected? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45757 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rebecca M" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "finwitch" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., kaarlo moran wrote: > > > Kaario?: > > > But Neville?...he's always reminded every time he visits his > > > parents > > > during the holidays of what he lost. > > Finwitch?: > > Oh he is. I also think that Neville has more memories of his > > parents than Harry. Good memories. Harry has one memory of his > > parents: Their death. > > > Rebecca: > But Neville is the same age as Harry and his parents were tortured > around the time of Harry's parents' deaths, so Neville's memories can't > be that much clearer than Harry. ... ... ... > > Rebecca bboy_mn: Close, but not quite. Neville parents were tortured *after* the death of Harry's parents and the downfall of Voldemort. Exactly when after, a week, a month, a year or two, is not clear. I don't remember anything that clearly indicates this time. We have to assume some time had passed. Enough time for people to have a general idea of what happened, and time for the Lestrange's to develope some idea that Longbottom knew something about it and possibly knew where Voldemort was rumored to be hiding then develope and execute a plan of action. When Harry vaporized Voldemort on Holloween, he was either 3 month old or a year and 3 months old. If the Lestrange/Longbottom incident occured 6 to 9 months later, that would make Harry and Neville about two years old. Two is still pretty young, but a two year old has some capacity for thought, communication, and memory. (I'm not a parent and all my brothers and sisters are grown, so my recollections of a two year old is vague at best.) So it is possible that Neville has some real knowledge of his parent, and as some people speculate, he may have first hand knowledge of the torture of his parents. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From psychomaverick at hotmail.com Fri Oct 25 08:04:35 2002 From: psychomaverick at hotmail.com (psychodudeneo) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:04:35 -0000 Subject: Why brooms and not carpets? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45758 The reason given for flying carpets being illegal is that they're considered muggle items. Hello? Brooms are muggle items too! Heck, you're more likely to find a broom in someone's house than a persian-style carpet. I can't think of any reason why the Ministry would choose one over the other. To be honest, carpets sound a lot more useful than brooms. - anyone want to toss in their opinions here? From obby at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Oct 25 09:05:41 2002 From: obby at blueyonder.co.uk (Richard Thorp) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:05:41 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why the Knight Bus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <103558280781.20021025100541@blueyonder.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 45759 Thursday, October 24, 2002, 11:55:07 PM, Susan wrote: SM> I don't understand the WW appeal of the Knight Bus. Other than a plot SM> device, what is the purpose? The same as a normal public bus service, I would assume... SM> Presumably, all adult wizards can apparate. Or is this something that SM> is only available to those who can prove skill and qualify for a SM> license? Well, that is maybe the subject of another post. Anyway, SM> assuming that all adults can apparate, you would think that they SM> could apparate to any destination that the bus could go, even if it SM> might take several hops. And it would seem to me that apparating to a SM> destination would be quicker than going by bus. Otherwise, there is SM> Floo powder, broomsticks, and even magic motorcycles, not to mention SM> the train. Not all adults can drive a car, or have a car to drive at all times (which is what I equate apparation with, since a test is taken at 17, and JKR is a UK native), broomsticks aren't the most useful things to use for a long journey (I equate a broomstick with a bicycle really, except theyre a bit faster :)), they could probably use muggle trains, but this would be an imperfect solution. And as has been said, motorcycles made magical aren't really an option as such, due to their doubtful legality. As for floo powder, I'd say this most easily equates itself with the trains (fireplaces as stations, use of a 'network' and not just any fireplace, only important/semi-important fireplaces used (except the Weasellys, but they do work at the Ministry and have a rather large family...)). This leaves the Knight bus as provision of (as someone said) poor people (possibly, since the Weasellys are said to be poor, but do we see them using the Knight bus at all? Possible problem with that one I think), people who can't Apparate for any particular reason, people who would not like a long broomstick ride, and people who aren't important enough to live near/on top of a Floo-networked fireplace, people with children, and even children themselves. Also as someone mentioned, it would mean that someone could have a good sleep on the way to their destination :) -Rich, going away for the weekend to the middle of nowhere! (Aberystwyth in North Wales, to visit the University) Yay for coming home to 200 emails! :) msn: obbles at hotmail.com From obby at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Oct 25 09:42:33 2002 From: obby at blueyonder.co.uk (Richard Thorp) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:42:33 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why brooms and not carpets? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <126560493421.20021025104233@blueyonder.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 45760 Friday, October 25, 2002, 9:04:35 AM, psychodudeneo, wrote: p> The reason given for flying carpets being illegal is that they're p> considered muggle items. p> Hello? Brooms are muggle items too! Heck, you're more likely to p> find a broom in someone's house than a persian-style carpet. p> I can't think of any reason why the Ministry would choose one over p> the other. To be honest, carpets sound a lot more useful than brooms. p> - anyone want to toss in their opinions here? Brooms are easier to make than carpets, and appear to have been around for a much longer time. A magic carpet is also plausible, except that it would be native to Egypt or somewhere JKR considers 'exotic' one would assume :) Hope that helps, -Rich msn: obbles at hotmail.com From heidit at netbox.com Fri Oct 25 11:07:39 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 07:07:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why brooms and not carpets? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <022a01c27c16$bf840420$3701010a@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 45761 > -----Original Message----- > From: psychodudeneo [mailto:psychomaverick at hotmail.com] > Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 4:05 AM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why brooms and not carpets? > > > Real-To: "psychodudeneo" > > The reason given for flying carpets being illegal is that they're > considered muggle items. > > Hello? Brooms are muggle items too! Heck, you're more likely to > find a broom in someone's house than a persian-style carpet. > > I can't think of any reason why the Ministry would choose one over > the other. To be honest, carpets sound a lot more useful than brooms. >From Quidditch Through the Ages, we learn that the prominence of broom-flying in the British Isles dates back many hundreds of years, to a time when ordinary people were very likely to have a broom in their home, even in the main room - However, from a study of history, we can conclude that ordinary people - Muggles - were probably less likely to have a large carpet, as carpets were expensive and found, usually, only in the homes of the wealthier folk. Thus, if someone who didn't have a manor house or larger had a carpet, it might have roused suspicion, of the "how do they afford *that*? Their turnip crop was horrid this year!" variety. Accordingly, as QTTA says, it was easier to explain away a random broom on a rack or by the front door when guests came calling, or in a different place in the room each time, than it would've been to expain anything else. They were Muggle-ordinary. Heidi From lupinesque at yahoo.com Fri Oct 25 11:28:11 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:28:11 -0000 Subject: Why brooms and not carpets? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45762 psychodudeneo, who frightens me a little (you're not REALLY psycho, are you, dude?), wrote: > The reason given for flying carpets being illegal is that they're > considered muggle items. > > Hello? Brooms are muggle items too! Heck, you're more likely to > find a broom in someone's house than a persian-style carpet. Furthermore, it's *good* to use an item that one is likely to find in someone's house. QTTA gives that as a reason brooms were such useful magical objects; in times of persecution by Muggles, they could lean against a corner in a wizarding house without awakening suspicion (7- 8). That same section implies that carpets would be used in the East for the same reason: because they are inconspicuous. > I can't think of any reason why the Ministry would choose one over > the other. To be honest, carpets sound a lot more useful than brooms. A family vehicle, yes! LOL. In countries where persian-style carpets are common, one would think they *are* more useful, even aside from the size factor. (They wouldn't be very good for Quidditch. No doubt different games have evolved in Iran, Turkey, etc., involving teams on carpets.) I think we're seeing a bit of a cultural bias here--the British MOM sees them as exotic, and they *are* exotic, to them. But it's an interesting balance, isn't it? The MOM says no enchanting Muggle objects, yet for secrecy's sake, Muggle objects are the best ones. Arthur's department seems to have arisen in a safer era than the 10th century, when the concern became protection OF Muggles more than protection FROM Muggles. Amy Z ------------------------------------------------------------ "I don't think anyone should ride that broom just yet!" said Hermione shrilly. Harry and Ron looked at her. "What d'you think Harry's going to do with it--sweep the floor?" said Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------- From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Fri Oct 25 13:16:07 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:16:07 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Robes and other Clothing In-Reply-To: <196.f8304aa.2ae94756@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021025125354.00a36b60@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45763 Eloise wrote: >Bluecoat Schools (http://home.freeuk.com/mkb/SUG/Blcoat.htm) I'd just like to point out that they're called Blue *coats* for a reason.:-) The difference (as I see it) between the Bluecoats and the Hogwarts robes is that the coat is only buttoned to the waist; what's below it (breeches, long socks) is designed to be visible, although I'm curious what's beneath the coat at chest height (in one of the pictures, one of the boys is sitting in such a way that he's showing something white underneath, which I assume to be a shirt). I must admit at this stage that although I'd heard of Bluecoat schools, I didn't know they were still around, nor that they still wear this kind of uniform. As they say, you learn something new every day, sometimes in the most unlikely of places. :-) >Someone on this site once quoted the reason for the film's change to >(academic) gowns over school uniform being to do with the fact that all those >plain black work robes would result in a sea of black which would not worked >cinematically. Sorry, I can't remember who or when and I don't feel like >confronting Yahoomort today! I have a vague recollection of several quotes to that extent from Judianna Makovsky (costume designer) in articles about the first film. I'm not sure whether or not to read anything into the fact that she wasn't employed for the second one. :-) That said, I'm not entirely sure that it's a valid comment anyway, considering a lot of the time, the kids are seen en masse wearing the capes rather than the uniforms, and given Columbus's penchant for ultra-close shots on faces, the whole thing becomes unimportant. I wouldn't be surprised if it was done with one eye on the marketing potential (not that this has been tapped with the official merchandise!)... A few comments on what other people have said, without quotes. A few people have made reference to the Weasley kids wearing Muggle clothes while at home. I'm not making accusations, but I can't find anything to support it in the books. Anyone care to supply a quote? :-) Bill, of course, is a case apart as what he wears "wouldn't be out of place at a rock concert", but that's not the same thing. If what the kids wear is so "normal" (to Muggle eyes), why is Arthur's getup so outlandish when he sets off for the QWC? A similar comment goes for whether or not Muggle clothes are routinely worn at Hogwarts. I can think of only two canon mentions of Muggle clothing, namely Harry's t-shirt under his Quidditch robes and the Weasley Christmas Jumpers. As I said at the start of this conversation, we have no canonical description of what wizards routinely wear underneath their robes, although that Archie at the QWC chooses to "go commando" is presented as strange. But whether what's under the robes goes beyond underwear, we simply don't know. The fact that Harry wears a t-shirt under his Quidditch robes is therefore completely normal. The implication, however, is that he has nothing *else* (i.e. a shirt) on. Please note that I'm not saying that trousers and shirts are unknown, or even uncommon, in the wizarding world. On the contrary, we know that Hagrid wears a jerkin, and considers his hairy suit the height of fashion. For starters, considering his job, wearing robes would be impractical, and his giant heritage probably doesn't include robes anyway. Depending on how one pictures clothes at Hogwarts, it's possible (perhaps even likely), that shirts and trousers are worn under the robes. However, it is the *robes* that form the uniform (i.e. are all the same), not what's worn underneath them, as that isn't meant to be seen by others. I expect that wizards without robes simply don't consider themselves "fully dressed" ( a bit like clerics a generation or two ago), so whilst it might be acceptable for the Weasleys to wear their Christmas Jumpers in private, I'm not sure whether they'd wear them in public. It's interesting that Percy refuses to wear his: being a stickler for formality, he'd probably consider it a bit... rude. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who wonders if this talk of underwear is getting a bit kinky, and will reply to Steve (bboy_mn)'s Lord of the Flies post later this evening... From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Oct 25 14:29:44 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:29:44 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?He=92ll_Never_Recall_One_(filk)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45764 He'll Never Recall One (To the tune of You'll Never Walk Alone, from Carousel) Dedicated to Amy Z Hear the original at: http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/carousel.html THE SCENE: Before Gryffindor. The FAT LADY sings of a lad she spends a lot of time with. FAT LADY When he walks toward his dorm That poor Neville guy Who barely remembers his name This dumb schlep's memory, it goes so awry, That I can't let him pass through my frame Locked out from his room Locked out from his turf As he waits with leering trolls Password, password, he tries to think hard But he never recalls one He'll never recall one - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated 10/21/02 with 29 new filks) From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Oct 25 14:37:13 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:37:13 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Robes and other Clothing Message-ID: <6f.2fdcb98f.2aeab119@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45765 In a message dated 25/10/2002 02:49:02 GMT Standard Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > > In this groups photo section, I added a new album called 'School > Robes'. In it are some still photos from the movie 'Lord of the > Flies'. This is the 1963 release British made, all British case > version of the film. > I see where you're coming from and why you relate these pictures to those in the film. BUT.... I have to say that they're not like any school uniform I've ever seen. :-) I'm afraid haven't seen the film in question either and it's thirty years since I've read the book, so I have no recollection whether such garb is implied or required by the story. They are in *no way* representative of average British school uniform, though. Richard on my analogy to Bluecoat uniform: >I'd just like to point out that they're called Blue *coats* for a >reason.:-) The difference (as I see it) between the Bluecoats and the >Hogwarts robes is that the coat is only buttoned to the waist; what's below >it (breeches, long socks) is designed to be visible, I agree. I wasn't suggesting that they were the origin or indeed even similar to Hogwarts robes, merely thinking that this was the sort of thing Bboy might have had in mind when be talked about scholastic or choir robes. I realise that when he last posted he evidently hadn't got around to reading my post and I had previously realised (but too late!) that what he meant by choir robes might not be not the same as you or I would mean. This is one of those leap-frogging discussions where some of us are not at the same point of the conversation as others. Just to be clear on the choir robes issue: In the UK if you talk about choir robes, you would most likely be talking about church choirs - secular choirs may have a kind of uniform, but aren't often *robed* as such (and I can't talk for non-Christian religious choirs as I have no experience of them). Anglican and Catholic church choirs normally wear cassocks, frequently with surplices and the children often wear little ruffs at the neck. Choirs from other denominations may be similarly attired, wear no specific robes at all, or, particularly in the case of Black churches, have American-style choir robes. As far as I can see, the bottom line on the wizard clothing and uniform issue is that in the WW, as in the UK in real life, school uniform tends to be old-fashioned or traditional. Older wizards wear robes, children at home may wear more up to date clothing, children at school wear uniform, which in the case of wizards means traditional robes, just as my daughter has to wear a blazer and a boater, old fashioned items and not the sort of thing the average 11 year old girl would wear out of choice, these days. Eloise Who'd like to reassure Richard that he's by no means the first to wonder about wizard underwear in public and wonders if the answer, for Quidditch players at least, is that good old British schoolgirl standby - a pair of gym knickers! (Yes, even they still exist!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annahemmant at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 25 13:23:38 2002 From: annahemmant at yahoo.co.uk (Anna Hemmant) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:23:38 -0000 Subject: Subject: Re: Arabella Figg as Secret Keeper (or, rather, not) In-Reply-To: <20021024200442.63357.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45766 >It's my impression that Harry being at the Dursleys is not a secret, > everybody seems to know, even Voldie. Didn't he tell his DEs at the graveyard, while explaining the whole > story of his resurrection, that while Harry was at his relatives he > couldn't harm him, that's why he had to get a loyal DE in Hogwarts? therefore no need for a secret keeper. It > must be some other kind of old magic. I have to agree. I think it may be something to do with the thing Dumbledore does to the street lights when Harry is delivered to the Dursleys. I think it keeps the street loyal to Dumbledore or something similar, and prevents Voldemort or anyone else who wishes harm on Harry from going anywhere near him. I think that he has to start the holidays at the Dursleys so that he doesn't bandy about the fact that he's spending the summer at the Weasleys for all to hear at school? I've thought far too long and hard on this subject, as you may be able to tell. Other opinions would be welcome. By the way do you all realise that even Ginny would be Twenty years old now? Doesn't that feel wierd? We're still thinking of her as having her first teenage crush, and she'd be working by now. I feel so old! Anna From mailowen at aol.com Fri Oct 25 14:32:01 2002 From: mailowen at aol.com (dowen331) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:32:01 -0000 Subject: Why the Knight Bus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45767 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Miller" wrote: > Presumably, all adult wizards can apparate. Or is this something that > is only available to those who can prove skill and qualify for a > license? Well, that is maybe the subject of another post. Anyway, > assuming that all adults can apparate, you would think that they > could apparate to any destination that the bus could go, even if it > might take several hops. And it would seem to me that apparating to a > destination would be quicker than going by bus. Otherwise, there is > Floo powder, broomsticks, and even magic motorcycles, not to mention > the train. > ~ Constance Vigilance One other aspect of apparation: Having just caught up on reading old JKR interviews, I read in one of them that apparation is regulated by the MOM, and that anytime a wizard apparates the MOM knows about it. (This is how they keep wizards from apparating into bank vaults, etc.) It seems that many wizards may want to travel from place to place without being under Big Brother's eye all the time, so the Knight Bus is a more anonymous way to travel. Deb331 (who, after all the discussion of robes, is wondering what to do with the Harry Potter costume she just made for her son--a lovely black hooded gown, but probably not historically accurate! :-)) From bak42 at netzero.net Fri Oct 25 15:20:54 2002 From: bak42 at netzero.net (bak42) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:20:54 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why brooms and not carpets? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c27c3a$1cec70c0$3add3a41@bak42> No: HPFGUIDX 45768 Pstchodudeneo wrote: Heck, you're more likely to find a broom in someone's house than a persian-style carpet. That is the reason for brooms, they're common, cheap, and if their found in your house you don't need any excuse for having it. ------------------------------------- Brandon -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GU d- s+:-- a-- C++>$ U? L(-) E? W++ N? o? K? w+ !O M-- V? PS(+) PE Y PGP- t++ 5++ X- R tv++ b+++ DI+++ D+ G e(*) h! !r !z+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 25 15:14:19 2002 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:14:19 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why brooms and not carpets? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021025100800.06f72710@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45769 As the clock struck 08:04 AM 10/25/2002 +0000, psychodudeneo took pen in hand and wrote: >The reason given for flying carpets being illegal is that they're >considered muggle items. > >Hello? Brooms are muggle items too! Heck, you're more likely to >find a broom in someone's house than a persian-style carpet. > >I can't think of any reason why the Ministry would choose one over >the other. To be honest, carpets sound a lot more useful than brooms. > > - anyone want to toss in their opinions here? I will probably get flayed for voicing this opinion. I think we can reasonably posit a significant British flying broom industry from the fact that the newest model is always on display in Diagon Alley, Which Broom magazine, the history of the British broom industry given in QTTA, etc. On the other hand, there does not appear to be much of a British flying carpet industry (although there is mention of Barty Crouch, sr.'s father's Axminster, presumably a British product). Flying carpets are an import item. What is more, they are an import item that would, to a degree, compete with the native, British broom manufacturers. I suggest that the distinction is purely political and protectionist. Jim From jodel at aol.com Fri Oct 25 16:14:31 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:14:31 EDT Subject: Why brooms and not carpets? Message-ID: <19d.ad9b021.2aeac7e7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45770 It occurs to me that a carpet is a LOT more likely to fall into Muggle hands than a broom. After all, when eccntric old uncle George dies mysteriously, one is very likely to either install his carpet in your own study or sell it to the second-hand shop. A broom will either end up in your own utility closet or be thrown away. Now there aren't that many people who are randomly going to go through your closet for a broom. But anyone can come into the study. And if someone who does has a trace of magic... Besides, a flying carpet, in use, is more VISIBLE than a broom. -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Fri Oct 25 16:14:36 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:14:36 EDT Subject: Why the Knight Bus? Message-ID: <1c8.a09319.2aeac7ec@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45771 Rich states; >>people who can't Apparate for any particular reason, people who would not like a long broomstick ride, and people who aren't important enough to live near/on top of a Floo-networked fireplace, people with children, and even children themselves.<< Yes, certainly, all of the above. But more, Stan explains the purpose when Harry boards the bus. The Knight Bus exists for witches and wizards who get "stranded". The bus is hailed by sticking out one's wand HAND, not one's wand. Wands break, or get lost, or malfunction. Plus, I suspect that not all magicals can or do Apparate. Get splinched once and you may shy off of Apparation for life. People who can't do it to specifications don't get a license, and possibly, people who have a history of splinching may get theirs revoked. Besides, you can't carry much cargo on a broom and the Floo doesn't connect to your Muggle aunt Mattie's. (Who doesn't know you're a witch.) I suspect that the Knight Buss opperates chiefly in the Muggle world. Even if it isn't generally visible to Muggles. -JOdel From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 25 15:59:38 2002 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:59:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why the Knight Bus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021025101759.06f753d0@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45772 >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Miller" wrote: > > Presumably, all adult wizards can apparate. I do not think we can presume this. Apparition is regulated and requires a qualification test. I think it is reasonable to assume that the test requires a certain level of education. As I do NOT believe that all wizards attend Hogwarts (or a similar school), I do not believe that all adult wizard could pass the apparition test. >Or is this something >that > > is only available to those who can prove skill and qualify for a > > license? Well, that is maybe the subject of another post. Anyway, > > assuming that all adults can apparate, you would think that they > > could apparate to any destination that the bus could go, even if it > > might take several hops. And it would seem to me that apparating to >a > > destination would be quicker than going by bus. Otherwise, there is > > Floo powder, broomsticks, and even magic motorcycles, not to >mention > > the train. > > > ~ Constance Vigilance I believe that there is **horrors** a class distinction involved in who would utilize the Knight Bus and who would apparate or use floo powder. In Nancy Mitford terms, apparition (which requires education and qualification) and floo powder (which requires a fireplace and money spent on the powder itself) are U while the (free) Knight Bus is non-U. If the Knight Bus were a common way for wizards (of the class whose children go to Hogwarts) to get around, it is rather odd that Harry had never heard of it at all in two years at Hogwarts, but then I continue to believe that most of the students at Hogwarts are either U or from muggle backgrounds, and neither would have typically ridden the Knight Bus. Jim From adatole at yahoo.com Fri Oct 25 16:23:31 2002 From: adatole at yahoo.com (Leon Adato) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why the Knight Bus? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021025101759.06f753d0@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20021025162331.47118.qmail@web40311.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45773 "James P. Robinson III" wrote: I believe that there is **horrors** a class distinction involved in who would utilize the Knight Bus and who would apparate or use floo powder. In Nancy Mitford terms, apparition (which requires education and qualification) and floo powder (which requires a fireplace and money spent on the powder itself) are U while the (free) Knight Bus is non-U. I think there is a simpler explanation, although I'm using my rather limited experience with European transportation here: When living in Switzerland, there was a "night bus" service - a bus that started running around 8:00pm and ran until the wee hours of the morning. Where I was, this was specifically for younger teens who wanted to go out but had lost their ride home, etc. The night bus had a basic route, but the stops were designated by the people on the bus at the moment. I just assumed that the Knight Bus was JKR's "magicification" of that normal concept. No class distinction, it was just for people who were stranded or couldn't get around any other way due to age (like Harry) or inability (like the drunk/sick witch). Leon --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmmears at comcast.net Fri Oct 25 16:41:21 2002 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 16:41:21 -0000 Subject: Robes and other Clothing In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021025125354.00a36b60@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45774 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: > A few people have made reference to the Weasley kids wearing Muggle clothes > while at home. I'm not making accusations, but I can't find anything to > support it in the books. Anyone care to supply a quote? :-) Bill, of > course, is a case apart as what he wears "wouldn't be out of place at a > rock concert", but that's not the same thing. If what the kids wear is so > "normal" (to Muggle eyes), why is Arthur's getup so outlandish when he sets > off for the QWC? In GoF, Chapter 4, p39 (UK Hardback) "He had rarely seen Mr. or Mrs Weasley wearing anything that the Dursleys would call 'normal'. Their children might don Muggle clothing during the holidays, but Mr and mrs Weasley usually wore long robes in varying states of shabbiness." I am also confused as to why Arthur is so clueless concerning Muggle- wear since, not only do his children wear Muggle clothes while they're home, his job brings him into more contact with Muggles than the average MoM employee. The books seem to be all over the place in regard to wizard clothing, but the impression I'm left with is that the adults choose to dress st various points along the wizard-muggle spectrum. This results in sartorial eccentricities such as Mr. Fudge dressing in a pin-striped cloak and a bottle-green suit (CoS). My assumption is that through the constant influx of Muggle born witches and wizards, the style of dress in the WW has moved beyond the traditional robes worn by Mr. and Mrs. Weasley to all sorts of odd combinations chosen according to the individual witch or wizard's personal taste. It does seem though, that if the pure blood Weasley kids all wear muggle clothing when they are not in school then it's very likely that all young witches and wizards also do so. The Hogwarts uniforms have probably evolved over time to reflect that which is why I'm not really bothered by they way they are portrayed in TCTTMNBN. Jo Serenadust From divaclv at aol.com Fri Oct 25 16:50:58 2002 From: divaclv at aol.com (c_voth312) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 16:50:58 -0000 Subject: Why brooms and not carpets? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021025100800.06f72710@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45775 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "James P. Robinson III" wrote: > I will probably get flayed for voicing this opinion. I think we > can reasonably posit a significant British flying broom industry from the > fact that the newest model is always on display in Diagon Alley, Which > Broom magazine, the history of the British broom industry given in QTTA, > etc. On the other hand, there does not appear to be much of a British > flying carpet industry (although there is mention of Barty Crouch, sr.'s > father's Axminster, presumably a British product). Flying carpets are an > import item. What is more, they are an import item that would, to a > degree, compete with the native, British broom manufacturers. I suggest > that the distinction is purely political and protectionist. > > Jim Actually, Jim, I was about to suggest this idea myself. As was mentioned elsewhere, the reason why brooms would have been originally favored over carpets is simply that way-back-when, brooms were much more common and inexpensive (think about it, do you really want to expose that neat rug Uncle William brought back from the Crusades to the elements?). But nowadays, I think it might have more to do with traditionalism and national pride. There's some evidence that the MoM, or Fudge at the very least, is a bit--I believe "conservative" is the diplomatic term--in their ways; I can easily imagine them trying to curtail imports. ~Christi From Ali at zymurgy.org Fri Oct 25 16:56:04 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 16:56:04 -0000 Subject: Why the Knight Bus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45776 > Susan Miller wrote: > I don't understand the WW appeal of the Knight Bus. Other than a plot > device, what is the purpose? > > Presumably, all adult wizards can apparate. > > > > And it would seem to me that apparating to a destination would be > quicker than going by bus. Otherwise, there is Floo powder, > broomsticks, and even magic motorcycles, not to mention the train. > > > > What service does it provide that cannot be got cheaper, easier, (and > safer!) another way? Any ideas? > > Conquistas: > I assume that the Knight bus service the same clientele that muggle > buses services, mainly the poor. In big cities, its usually only the > poor that take the bus, because other modes of transporation is just > more expensive. But some do take it out of convience, especialy in > big cities where parking can be a problem. > Now me:- I would imagine from your post that you're not European? I think in Europe we have a very different attitude to public transport than say Americans do. In Britain, it is simply not the case that only the poor use public transport. Our public transport is notoriously poor in comparison with other European countries, but it is still perfectly acceptable for people of all degrees of wealth to use public transport. I assume therefore that the clientele would be like the muggles users of British bus services, not North American where there is perhaps a different cultural attitude towards them?. I do agree with your idea about using buses for convenience though, as in many towns (like my town, Reading), it is simply easier to catch the bus into the centre rather than get stuck in traffic jams and pay astronomic costs for the car parks. I agree with Leon that the Knight bus is probably a play on words of our Night Buses, although the idea of them springing to the rescue of the stranded witch or wizard also ties in with the chivalrous element of the word. Ali Off to eat egg and chips as she can't be bothered to cook properly tonight! From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Oct 25 18:40:40 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:40:40 -0000 Subject: Why brooms and not carpets? In-Reply-To: <19d.ad9b021.2aeac7e7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45777 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jodel at a... wrote: > It occurs to me that a carpet is a LOT more likely to fall into > Muggle hands than a broom. > > After all, when eccntric old uncle George dies mysteriously, one is > very likely to either install his carpet in your own study or sell > it to the second-hand shop. A broom will either end up in your own > utility closet or be thrown away. Now there aren't that many people > who are randomly going to go through your closet for a broom. But > anyone can come into the study. And if someone who does has a > trace of magic... > > Besides, a flying carpet, in use, is more VISIBLE than a broom. > > -JOdel bboy_mn makes general commnets: One thought about broom vs carpet is that brooms are not sweeping brooms. They are not mubble object enchanted to have flying characteristics. They are magical devices made specifically for flying. I don't have much knowledge of the history and progress of sweeping brooms, butt flying brooms do not have sweeps made of straw, they are made of twigs which would make them worthless for sweeping. So a muggle who found a broom made for flying would not be likely to see any use for it. One flaw to that believe is that while the sweep is worthless, the handles are made of fine wood polished to a mirror finish. So conceivabley a muggle might keep a flying broom just for the wood in the handle. Especially if he's a pack rat like me. But magic or muggle, a carpet is a carpet. It could look to a muggle like a carpet that had some practical use. Then one day the kids are sitting around playing on the unknow flying carpet accidently mutter the magic words and the kids and carpet smash throught the living room window and take to the air. As a pack rat I may keep a broom with a nice handle, but it would be stored in the garage or cellar in hopes that someday (probably never) I might think of something I could do with the fine woood handle. In summary, what I am saying is that carpets are probably muggle items enchanted to fly. Where as brooms are magic items specifically made for flying with little other practical application; magical items with little or no practical muggle application. Although, I agree with the comments of many other people. Carpets are imported and don't support British industry. Brooms were far easier for a witch or wizard to hide back in the 'good old days'. And, brooms have a strong tradition in British and European history. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From smiller_92407 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 25 17:51:15 2002 From: smiller_92407 at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:51:15 -0000 Subject: Why the Knight Bus? In-Reply-To: <20021025162331.47118.qmail@web40311.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45778 Leon Adato wrote: > I think there is a simpler explanation, although I'm using my rather limited experience with European transportation here: When living in Switzerland, there was a "night bus" service - a bus that started running around 8:00pm and ran until the wee hours of the morning. Where I was, this was specifically for younger teens who wanted to go out but had lost their ride home, etc. The night bus had a basic route, but the stops were designated by the people on the bus at the moment. > > I just assumed that the Knight Bus was JKR's "magicification" of that normal concept. No class distinction, it was just for people who were stranded or couldn't get around any other way due to age (like Harry) or inability (like the drunk/sick witch). > > Leon > Thank you, Leon. In my original post, I acknowledged that the purpose of the Knight bus was for "stranded" wizards. My concern was that having a business that was purely based on that clientele would not seem to be fiscally feasable. Maybe I'm wrong. Is it a business in Switzerland, or some kind of government service? But then, there doesn't seem to be much in the WW that is based on fiscal feasability. After all, could a wandmaker stay in business, if the average wizard purchased only one in a lifetime? Agreed, Lilly was described as buying "her first wand", which could imply multiple, but I get the opinion that wizards buy very few in a lifetime. What keeps Mr. Ollivander in business? And while I'm on the subject of wands, if a wand is such a personal item, how could Mrs. Weasley get fooled by the fake wands of the twins? OK. Now I'm really wandering off post-topic. ~ Constance Vigilance From msbonsai at mninter.net Fri Oct 25 18:46:10 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:46:10 -0000 Subject: Knight Bus? -not free. and "wand" or "wand hand"? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45779 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "James P. Robinson III" > wrote: > while the (free) Knight Bus is non-U. > > Jim> Me: Where is everyone getting this idea that the Knight Bus is either cheap or free? I encourage you to go back an reread that there! > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jodel at a... wrote: > >The bus is hailed by sticking out one's wand HAND, not one's > wand. > Me: I'm beginning to think I have a rather rare edition of the HP PoA book here. Let me explain both problems as I see them with this: PoA p 35: Stan speaks: "'Ere,' he said, looking suspicious again, 'you DID flag us down, dincha? Stuck out your wand 'and, dincha?' "'Yes,' said Harry quickly. 'Listen, how much would it be to get to London?' "'Eleven Sickles,' said Stan, 'but for firteen you get 'ot chocolate, and for fifteen you get an 'ot water bottle an' a toofbrush in the color of your choice.'" Now, I can see that Harry has raised his arm and illuminated his wand, trips, loses his wand, and maybe just maybe his hand is still stuck up in the air, and maybe that is why the bus is summoned. But if so, even with the accent Stan has, he still states "Stuck out your wand 'and, dincha?" And it's definately not free. If I have the only version of PoA in which Harry pays money, and Stan says "Wand" and not "Wand hand" in that sentence, please let me know, because I'm betting it'd be worth something! Julie - who with the rest of the great state of Minnesota is mourning the loss of Senator Wellstone, his wife and daughter, 3 campaign managers, and 2 pilots who died in a plane crash this morning. From kattrap_meow at yahoo.com Fri Oct 25 18:49:28 2002 From: kattrap_meow at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:49:28 -0000 Subject: Neville imperious curse [was Fifth Wheel? was Neville greatness expected?] Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45780 > "hickengruendler" wrote: > > |---- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jtdogberry" wrote: > | > |Someone mentioned that Neville is under the imperious curse. I've > |got to say I don't believe that rumour at all. > |---- > > Somehow I begin to believe the Imperius curse rumour. > I have one point against the imperius curse on Neville: The end of chapter 14 of GoF: "For a long time, Harry lay staring up at the dark canopy of his bed. The dormitory was completely silent, and, had he been less preoccupied, Harry would have realized that the absence of Neville's usual snores meant that he was not the only one lying awake." I would think that someone under the imperius curse would be sleeping like a baby- not being kept awake by images of your parents being tortured. > |---- > | The way I see that unforgiving curse > | lesson is that Neville knew who it was but had no proof so as a > | warning to "Moody" he raised his hand, after all he never answered > | anything unless it was herbology so to all of a sudden do this > |must of had another motive. > |---- > > > I don't think so. He might not > be the brightest student, but he isn't that stupid, to warn a > dangerous lunatic, that he knows about his true identity and go > with him in his > office short time later. However I do think, it is possible that > he knew something, without realizing it. Maybe Neville had seen it > before, the day when > his parents were attacked? This would explain, why he hesitated to > follow Moody in the office, but then did, because he didn't trust > his feelings and tried to act reasonably. > Or maybe just knowing that this wizard was powerful enough to perform Avada Kedavra, where the whole class could try it on 'Moody' and not make the teacher have a nosebleed. Also, IMO, Neville knew what curse screwed up his parents, but I don't think he would have reacted the way he did if he had seen it (raising his hand and being so affected by it after words). -Andrea, who is new to the list and has read the HB and VFAQ files- and if this post isn't worthy of this list, she will be a lurker from now on. From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 25 19:14:35 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:14:35 -0000 Subject: Knight Bus, Flying Carpets and Robes. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45781 Knight Bus: Probably serves exactly the same purpose as the London night bus - it's late, you've had a great night out, you're now too drunk to risk an auror catching you flying a broomstick without due care and attention, you can't quite remember where your home *is* to apparate to, and why don't you just stick your wand hand out, collapse onto the Knight Bus, and rely on the Driver and Conductor to shout/wake you up when it reaches your stop... Flying Carpets: I suspect JKR is having a little joke on us here. Crouch Sr. talks about his grandfather owning one before they were banned (GoF Ch.7 somewhere..)- it wouldn't be unreasonable to guess that Grandfather Crouch was probably around at the turn of the 19th/20th Century. It was around this time that a magic carpet was unfortunately sold by mistake to a muggle second hand dealer, who sold it on to a muggle family, where it ended up in the children's nursery. What happened next can be discovered in the fascinating account by the witch Edith Nesbitt, entitled 'The Phoenix and the Carpet.' Since the five muggle children involved certainly had an interesting time (as did the cook, the maid, and other assorted muggles), I can well imagine the extremely embarrassed Edwardian MoM insisting that flying carpets ought to be banned. :-) Robes: I visualise them as monastic style/ medieval full robes, probably slightly shorter for the boys (since Ron thinks his *long* dress robe looks like a girl's robe). They'd be a wool weave, I think, or velvet might be used for the dress robes (Ron's is described as a green velvet). Either way, quite warm enough to only need a t-shirt or vest underneath. Especially since the uniform includes a top cloak for winter wear. Archie probably *is* eccentric as underclothes were certainly worn in medieval monastries. In addition, no underclothes under robes would be - how do I put it? - a little inconvenient for the girls at least once they hit puberty. Our poor PS/SS costume designer probably weighed up the time and cost involved in producing several hundred school robes *from scratch* versus phoning up the companies who produce school uniforms and saying 'I need a special order for 300 grey v-necks, assorted sizes, 100 to have red and gold stripes on the v, 50 with green and silver - etc. And ditto for the readily available school trousers, shirts, shoes. Time and cost probably said the 'cloak over school uniform' was the better option and wouldn't cause the cinematographer and lighting designer to tear their hair out trying to film/light tons of dull, light absorbing black-on-black uniforms[grin]. Pip From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Oct 25 19:20:07 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:20:07 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Neville_=96_greatness_expected=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45782 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Darla" wrote: Darla Wrote: > Hey all, > Does anyone else feel that perhaps we can expect to be surprised by > Neville in the future, and that maybe he'll play a bigger part in the > fight against Voldemort then we expected? To Harry and class mates > he's portrayed as a pretty forgetful and cowardly character, and yet > we've learnt that he has the strength/courage to visit his parents in > hospital when they can't even remember him, and carries that > knowledge alone. > > D. bboy_mn to that I say N.O.S.H. N.E.R.D. G.R.A.N.T. Neville Often Shows Heart ... Neville Eventually Reveals Destiny ... Greatness Revealed and Neville Triumphs OK, so it's no MAGICAL DISHWASHER. Neville is too prominent in the story for him to not be significant. We see too many details, we know too much for Neville to be just another Seamus or Dean. We see the stumblinh bumbling clown, but we also see a sad tragic stumbling bumbling clown. We see courage and heart. The very fact that Neville goes to potions everyday tells me he is a strong and determined character. Heros aren't people who are not afraid. Only a fool is not afraid. Heros are people who are afraid and who do what mush be done anyway. This is how I see Neville. When the chips are down and it really counts, Neville's courage and heart will be far stronger than his fear. We can expect great, grand, and sadly tragic things from Neville in the future. Without a doubt, something very significant will happen with Neville. I'm not sure what it is but being a big Neville fan, I have to believe it will be heroic. Unfortunately, I'm also pretty sure it will be sadly and tragically heroic. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From squireandknight at yahoo.com Fri Oct 25 20:11:00 2002 From: squireandknight at yahoo.com (Becky) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:11:00 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's warning to Lily In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021023031559.0096d560@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45783 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: > Or, to turn the issue around, if he was willing to spare Lily, why was he > not prepared to let Cedric live? > Actually, I addressed this earlier in my post: > I know that often a comparison is made between > LV's "Kill the spare"and his "Stand aside, girl!", but I think it's > rather unfair to compare the climatic moment after thirteen years, to > a time when LV was pretty much running wild. To clarify: The "Kill the spare" comment was made after 13 years in exile, without a normal body. It is after another defeat by HP (when LV tried to get the PS), and the crucial part of LV's scheme *hasn't even happened yet.* The question for me to ask would be: Why would LV keep Cedric alive? I suppose you can counter by saying that's the same question you're wondering about Lily, but to me there is a huge difference between the possible things to go wrong (from LV's POV.) LV *still* has to make the potion. Then call his DE's and kill Harry. He does *not* have his full power back yet. And you're wondering why he didn't tell Wormtail to Stun Cedric? Possibly he learned his lesson with Lily about not killing people. Counter this by going back to 1981, LV is running wild, the MoM is apparently falling apart and the WW can't even say his *name.* Why *shouldn't* he let Lily live? I mean, what does he have to lose? She's helpless, and the only wizard he fears is Albus Dumbledore. And I still think she was supposed to live so that she could tell what happened. While 3 dead bodies make a statement, having a survivor can (IMO) make a better one. Particularly if s/he's a Muggle-born. It might make pure-bloods more frightened of associating with Muggle- borns if LV is seemingly going after them harder than the Muggle- borns themselves. And I'm still not entirely certain about LV really *feels* about Muggle-borns. Whether he is just using them as a convenient rallying cry to get families who would be more inclined to the Dark Arts on his side. I mean, I'm fairly certain how Tom Riddle feels, but I'm not inclined to trust anything the grown-up LV says. Errr... to return to my original topic for this post: I'm afraid I'll have to see how LV is in a more *normal* scenario before I can think of his treatment of Lily as unusual. And the "Kill the spare" does not qualify to me as "normal" no matter how you put it. > All of the above is incidental to why I started this post anyway. :- ) > > There's something else in that quote which has always intrigued me: "make a > clean job of it": a clean job of *what*, exactly? > > The only thing which springs to my mind (and this is *far* from an original > thought; it's expressed here on almost a daily basis, in some form or > another) :-) is "killing anyone in the Potter line". I can't see any > category which would fit Voldemort's willingness to spare Lily yet not > Harry, to spare other babies yet not Harry. > ::shrug:: I'm about as clueless on this as you are. Possibly it just means "no survivors." Possibly not. > Furthermore (and this is just a thought, not really leading to any > conclusion), the quote indicates that Hagrid was not aware that Voldemort > was going specifically for Harry. Whilst we don't yet know for a fact that > Harry was a specific target, it's heavily implied. Yet after all that time > working for Dumbledore, Hagrid doesn't know that, as he considers > Voldemort's attack on Harry to be an afterthought, "to make a clean job of > it"... > Well, much as I like Hagrid, I know *I* wouldn't trust Hagrid with much information, especially if I didn't want Harry to hear. :-) > -- > GulPlum AKA Richard, who is still trying to catch up, and would be grateful > if nobody would post anything for the next couple of days at least. :-) Sadly, that never seems to happen, no matter how often I need it. :-) Becky From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 25 19:06:49 2002 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:06:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Knight Bus? -not free. and "wand" or "wand hand"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021025140210.04d69390@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45784 As the clock struck 06:46 PM 10/25/2002 +0000, jastrangfeld took pen in hand and wrote: >PoA p 35: > >Stan speaks: > >"'Ere,' he said, looking suspicious again, 'you DID flag us down, >dincha? Stuck out your wand 'and, dincha?' > >"'Yes,' said Harry quickly. 'Listen, how much would it be to get to >London?' > >"'Eleven Sickles,' said Stan, 'but for firteen you get 'ot chocolate, >and for fifteen you get an 'ot water bottle an' a toofbrush in the >color of your choice.'" > > >Now, I can see that Harry has raised his arm and illuminated his >wand, trips, loses his wand, and maybe just maybe his hand is still >stuck up in the air, and maybe that is why the bus is summoned. But >if so, even with the accent Stan has, he still states "Stuck out your >wand 'and, dincha?" > >And it's definately not free. You are quite right. This seems quite cheap to me, but I got unacceptably carried away to say it was free. > >If I have the only version of PoA in which Harry pays money, and Stan >says "Wand" and not "Wand hand" in that sentence, please let me know, >because I'm betting it'd be worth something! Ok, you have lost me here. The text does say wand hand not just wand. Stan drops his 'aitches. That is why there is an inverted comma in 'and. "wand 'and" is "wand hand" in Stan's dialect. 'At's right, innit? Jim From msbonsai at mninter.net Fri Oct 25 19:33:04 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:33:04 -0000 Subject: Knight Bus? "wand" or "wand hand"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45785 > > "'Ere,' he said, looking suspicious again, 'you DID flag us down, > dincha? Stuck out your wand 'and, dincha?' Ok, so I'm replying to my own message, because I just realized I've been a complete idiot, and not realized that the ' meant he said "hand" and not "and". Julie From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 25 20:43:34 2002 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:43:34 -0000 Subject: Another Shrieking Shack?Re: Pettigrew: Snape Through the Looking Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45786 Elkins wrote a wonderful post about Pettigrew and Snape being mirrors of each other. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ssk7882" wrote: > Both men are traitors. Both men acted as moles during the war. > > More specifically, both betrayed their old circle of school friends > by passing on information to the enemy, information which eventually > led to some of their friends' violent deaths. > > In both cases, this old circle of school friends included people who > were killed in the last year of the war (the Potters, Rosier, > Wilkes), those who were sent to Azkaban but who have either already > escaped or who seem likely to be liberated in the near future (Black, > the Lestranges), and those who may have escaped death or > imprisonment, but who nonetheless seem to have suffered profound > psychological damage as they have not achieved much of anything with > their lives in the years since the war (Lupin, Avery). > > Both circles also included a married couple (Lestranges, Potters), > including a woman who was both the token female member of the group > and unusually talented and/or formidable. So, given these parallels, are we going to see another Shrieking Shack? In PoA Pettigrew had to face his friends whom he had betrayed. Will Snape have to face Avery and the Lestranges? I think it's clear that there will have to come a time when Voldemort finally figures out what's up with Severus Snape and if JKR really wants to get an emotional punch out of it what better than to have Snape's old friends present? Eileen From potter76 at libero.it Fri Oct 25 20:50:31 2002 From: potter76 at libero.it (Rita) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:50:31 +0200 (ora legale Europa occ.) Subject: Brooms [ was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why brooms and not carpets?] References: Message-ID: <3DB9AE97.000001.39847@i3a2c5> No: HPFGUIDX 45787 bboy_mn makes general commnets: One thought about broom vs carpet is that brooms are not sweeping brooms. They are not mubble object enchanted to have flying characteristics. They are magical devices made specifically for flying. I don't have much knowledge of the history and progress of sweeping brooms, butt flying brooms do not have sweeps made of straw, they are made of twigs which would make them worthless for sweeping. So a muggle who found a broom made for flying would not be likely to see any use for it. Me: A broom made of twigs ( I know what the plant used is called in Italian but of course it won't help very much giving that name as I'm not even sure it's a plant common all over Europe, further North they could have used something else to make brooms) is a sweeping broom, actually THE sweeping broom. It does its job so well that it's still used here in Italy to sweep streets. When plastic became common it replaced the old 'organic' broom in everyday use. I find the old style broom quite uncomfortable to use but that may be because I'm used to something different. Anyway, this doesn't invalidate your first statement. A broomstick is not a common Muggle object enchanted but a Magic means of transportation built to that end; they don't take the broom in the kitchen when they want to go visit the cousins, they turn to the traditional European flying device. R. From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Oct 25 20:58:23 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:58:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arabella Figg as Secret Keeper (or, rather, not) References: Message-ID: <014b01c27c69$45d08920$139dcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45788 Anna wrote: > I have to agree. I think it may be something to do with the thing > Dumbledore does to the street lights when Harry is delivered to the > Dursleys. I think it keeps the street loyal to Dumbledore or > something similar, and prevents Voldemort or anyone else who wishes > harm on Harry from going anywhere near him. That would make sense. An awful lot of time was spent on the Put-Outer, too much for it to simply be putting out lights. (by Dumbledore, in the book in general, an even in the thing that must not be named). There's bound to be an easier way to put out a light than a Put-Outer. It must do something to the light while it's inside it. He clicked it twelve times, once for each light, to put out the lights. Then when he returned the light, he did it in one click and all twelve balls of light sped back to their lamp at once. I've always thought there must be more to it, for all of this to be carefully pointed out to us. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Oct 25 21:09:35 2002 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 07:09:35 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Robes and other Clothing In-Reply-To: <6f.2fdcb98f.2aeab119@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DBA3FAF.19682.179364@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 45789 On 25 Oct 2002 at 10:37, eloiseherisson at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 25/10/2002 02:49:02 GMT Standard Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com > writes: > > I see where you're coming from and why you relate these pictures to those in > the film. > BUT.... I have to say that they're not like any school uniform I've ever > seen. :-) > I'm afraid haven't seen the film in question either and it's thirty years > since I've read the book, so I have no recollection whether such garb is > implied or required by the story. Yes, it is - but those are in fact choristers robes, and that is (from memory - my copy of Lord of the Flies is missing) made clear in the book (reference to one of the boys fainting at 'matins over the precentor' comes to my memory), and I believe in the movie, it's implied (by the boys singing in an early appearance). I am reasonably sure (I studied this at school twelve years ago, so forgive my lack of certainty) that Golding used the choir image as a symbol of 'angelic innocence' to contrast with the savages that the boys become, and also that the boy who is head of the choir uses his position as a way of exerting authority on others. The point is, those costumes were chosen for a very specific reason in both the book and the film - and certainly not because they were intended to be normal school uniform. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 25 21:12:01 2002 From: speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com (r f) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:12:01 +0000 Subject: TBAY: Rats Be Diseases Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45790 On the front lawn of the Safe House, Melody sits on the grass, wondering what it is about Frankie that makes her think of sea otters and seals. "New digs! Well, all right," says Frankie and spins in a circle to survey the Safe House, the bay and the dock. "Oops, sorry," she adds as Melody throws up an arm to block the spray. "Accio towel!" A fluffy white towel flutters up from the end of the dock and drapes itself over Frankie's dark hair. "I would have put it up in pigtails in honor of the theory, but it's too short," she explains, twisting the towel into an elegant knot that looks terribly out of place above her sopping wet yellow and black striped tank-top, cut off jeans and bare feet. "Wanna help me get this stuff set up in the RATS BE DISEASES room?" Melody eyes the large, pig-shaped floatie toy full of junk and sighs, "Yeah, why not." Finally, having the spilled only the Crayola 64 box of crayons down the stairs, the two women wrestle the inner-tube through the heavy steel door of the RATS room. Melody plops down in the lone chair as Frankie starts tossing odds and ends out onto the floor. "I maintain that Dudley is still part pig and that Hagrid's incomplete transfiguration spell is affecting his development." says Frankie. "Could you hang this on the door for me, please?" "So we've heard," says Melody. She unrolls a Primus "Pork Soda" poster modified to read RATS BE DISEASES and tapes it up. "Care to explain?" "No problem. At the beginning of PS/SS we find Dudley is a... is a..." Frankie digs a book out of a large ziplock bag. Flipping open Sorcerer's Stone (U.S. hardback edition) to pages 20 and 21, she continues. "We find Harry thinks of Dudley as someone who hates exercise and looks like a pig in a wig. But, Dudley is described as looking just his father, Vernon. A little bit later on page 26 Harry sees a gorilla that reminds him of Dudley, so at this point, I don't think we can attach much significance to the "pig in a wig" idea, expect as an easy caricature. Something a little like this..." Frankie snatches up cans of pink, yellow and black spray-paint, quickly cartooning a pig with a blond pompadour on the gray cement wall. She drops the cans and grabs the book. "If we skip ahead to page 36, we find Dudley, while pudgy, is still a small enough eleven year old boy for Uncle Vernon to throw out of a room by the scruff of the neck with one hand. Now for Hagrid's arrival. On page 48, Hagrid has arrived at the Hut on the Rock and as is cooking sausages. Dudley fidgets as the smell of the roasting sausages fills the hut, but after sharing only a bag of potato chips and four bananas between four people, I'd fidget too. Dang, now I'm hungry." Frankie complains. "I still don't understand your theory," says Melody, crossing her arms. "And you can finish explaining it now, thank you." "Right-o," says Frankie and unfurls a large pink parasol. She pulls a large dive knife from the sheath strapped to her leg and transfigures it into a fat, black Sharpie marker. She writes "The Umbrella of Mischief" and "The Umbrella of Drunken Glory" around the edge, wraps a string of glowing violet christmas lights around the handle and lets the umbrella drift idly to the ceiling. She consults the text again. "Once Vernon Dursely insults Albus Dumbledore on page 59, Hagrid attempts to transfigure Dudley into a pig with what later turns out to be his wand (which was snapped in half-- remember the trouble Ron had with his?) embedded in the heart of a battered pink umbrella. Here's the scene. ********************* -there was a flash of violet light, a sound like a firecracker a sharp squeal and the next second Dudley was dancing on the spot with his hands clasped over his fat bottom, howling in pain. when he turned his back on them, Harry saw a curly pig's tail poking through a hole in his trousers. Uncle Vernon roared. Pulling Aunt Petunia and Dudley into the other room, he cast one last terrified look at hagrid and slammed the door behind them. Hagrid looked down at his umbrella and stroked his beard. "Shouldn'ta lost me temper," he said ruefully, "but it didn't work anyway. Meant ter turn him into a pig, but I suppose he was so much like a pig anyway there wasn't much let ter do." ********************* There's been a lot of discussion here and there that transfigured individuals, even incompletely transfigured individuals like Krum in Goblet of Fire, take on some, if not all mental capacities of the animals they've been transfigured into. This is also supported in Quidditch Through the Ages on...." says Frankie, digging a thin paperback from another ziplock bag. "Here it is," she says, "Page one, 'The witch or wizard who finds him or herself transfigured into a bat may take to the air, but, having a transfigured bat's brain, the are sure to forget where they want to go the moment they take flight.' Besides, Dudley could still function normally since not only are pigs omnivorous, they're more intelligent than dogs." "Really?" asks Melody skeptically. "Really," says Frankie. "They'll eat just about anything and since they can't sweat, they roll in mud, but if you give them an option, they prefer clean water and you can train them too..." "Aren't you straying from canon a little bit?" says Melody. "Er, yeah," says Frankie. She drops QTA and picks up Sorcerer's Stone again. "Back to PS/SS. On page 90, Uncle Veron tells Harry that the only reason he will give him a ride to King's Cross is because he needs to take Dudley to a private hospital to have the tail removed. Meg said earlier that vestigial tails are a well-documented human medical phenomenon, so Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon could explain the existence of Dudley's tail. Perhaps the surgeon would lecture them a bit about not taking care of the "sacrococcygeal teratomas" sooner, but they wouldn't be particularly startled. All the surgeon can do is lop off Dudley's tail. No Magic Reversal Squad here. And, it's like Meg said, >But the traces of magic would have still been there. Whenever you remove >tissue, you try to get good margins. That means that the edges are normal >tissue. Well, since there is no evidence that magic leaves marks Muggles >can >detect, it is reasonable to assume that the surgeon did not get the >established margins. Plus, Hagrid's transfiguration affected Dudley's spine which happens to contain the spinal cord which just so happens to connect to the... brain. Who knows what other internal transfigurations took place? The next time we see Dudley, ONLY NINE MONTHS LATER, is at the beginning of Chamber of Secrets. On page 2 (U.S. hardback edition), he is described as "so large his bottom drooped over either side of the kitchen chair." Now, Dudley's put on an awful lot of weight in a rather short amount of time. Somehow he's managed this without the assistance of beer. AND, he's managed this on boarding school food (which is one step above summer camp food, which is only slightly above prison fare. Or so I'm told). Technically, twelve is before most boys start their teenage growth spurt. Perhaps Dudley's an early bloomer, but he's not described as being any taller. At the beginning of Prisoner of Azkaban, on page 5 (U.S. hardback edition), Dudley's snores are described as "grunting" and on page 16, Dudley is described as having "little piggy eyes" and "five extra chins." We also find out that Dudley has spent most of the summer in the kitchen eating continually. It's Agro-talk time," says Frankie. She pops open the seal of another five gallon bucket, dumps out 15 stuffed piglets and tosses one to Melody before arranging them in a row on a shelf Meg thoughtfully included when she armored the room. "I just so happen to have an uncle in large animal medicine." Frankie grins. "Here's the skinny on pigs. The Yorkshire hog currently is the most commonly bred pig because sows have between 14 and 16 piglets per litter. These piglets start out between 1.5 to 2 lbs and WITHIN SIX MONTHS reach market weight of 220 lbs. That's a little over a pound per day, and the general ratio of feed to pound of pig is roughly 2 to 1. That's two pounds of food for every pound the pig gains. The market weight is the target weight for pigs that will be slaughtered. A fully grown Yorkshire boar (that's a boy pig still in possession of his naughty bits) can weight more than 500 lbs. Returning to Dudley." Frankie says, pulling another book from a ziplock bag. "At the beginning of Goblet of Fire, page 26 (U.S. hardback edition), we find that Dudley is now so darn big he takes up an entire side of the kitchen table by himself. On page 27, we read, "that the school outfitters didn't stock knickerbockers big enough for him anymore" and that, "Dudley had reached roughly the size and weight of a young killer whale." Keep in mind we're talking about a thirteen-just-turned-fourteen-year-old boy. Not an adult. On page 32, we find that Dudley has "become wider than he was tall." Frankie tacks the largest pair of knickerbockers she could buy from the Smeltings outfitters on the wall and draws a Salvador Dali-esque pig-being flowing out of them. "I'll paint that in later," she says. "Now for my actual point. Since Dudley's growth rate is far closer to that of a Yorkshire boar than a Yorkshire boy, I maintain that he's still partially transfigured." Frankie is interrupted by Meg stepping out of the fireplace. Meg looks around, opens her mouth, closes her mouth and settles herself into one of the pig-shaped inflatable beanbags. "I've got a few minutes before my next class and I thought I'd stop in to hear your closing arguments," she says. "Interesting, er, decor." "The Warner Bros. "That's All Folks" banner, the Primus and Pink Floyd posters or the Miss Piggy pin-up?" asks Frankie, unrolling them. "Never mind," says Meg. "Just make your point." "Oooooookeey-dokey," says Frankie. "Now then, Hagrid himself says that since Dudley was already so piggish, "there wasn't much left to do." From this statement and from other descriptions of transfigured creatures, I think it is safe to conclude that Dudley's tail was only an externally visible indication that a transfiguration had, in fact, taken place. For support, let's go back to CoS. On 198, on his way to find Justin Finch-Fletchly, Harry hears McGonagall yelling at someone for accidentally transfiguring their friend into a badger. Later, on 203 when Peeves stumbles onto Harry who's just stumbled on the petrified Justin and Nearly Headless Nick, McGongall comes running, followed by her students, one of whom still has black-and-white striped hair." Grinning, Meg tosses Frankie an Arizona Iced Tea bottle. "Thank you," says Frankie. "To address the idea that transfiguration is an "on or off" molecular switch or a localized phenomenon, let's look at Dean's pin cushion on page 233 of GoF. Pin cushions do not have nervous systems, yet his "curls up in fright when anyone approaches it with a pin." When students are comparing the results of their final transfiguration exam on page 317 of PoA, we find a myriad of molecular structures resulting from the same experiment. Some tortoises have teapot spouts for tails, some have willow patterned shells and some breathe steam. These are all varying degrees of incomplete transfiguration, and one of them, the steam-breathing tortoise, is an entirely internal phenomenon indicating that the transfiguration is incomplete. Cutting off the teapot spout tail or painting over the willow patterned shells wouldn't change the fact that those tortoises have been partially transfigured." Frankie pauses and looks between Melody and Meg. "Because of this extended period of a magically altered state," she says. "I also maintain that Dudley stands a good chance of being the person Jo Rowling referred to in an interview as someone who would develop magic later in life." Frankie snaps PoA shut, put the bottle on the shelf with the stuffed piglets and cocks her head to one side. "Are you guys hungry?" she asks. "I could really go for some barbeque pork right about now..." "YUCK!" Gail's shout carries clearly to the Safe House from the boardwalk. "Or maybe just a bag of goldfish crackers." Frankie says evenly. Meg smiles at her crew. "I would love some barbeque." Seeing Melody look slightly ill, she explains, "What? Im in Gross Anatomy. This is nothing. Oh and Frankie, a few more points to go with that Tea bottle. The note it contained said: >The tail did not fall off on its own. Part of the problem with >transplanting animal parts to people is that the immune system identifies >and destroys any foreign cells. Unless Hagrid managed to cast an >immune-suppression charm along with the transformation, the cells were >still >human. That is easily explained. The cells and tissue that were transfigured where Dudley's own. There is no need for immunosuppression. Also, I got bored in Developmental Anatomy, I mean I was doing research for Devo, and I found the following case report." Meg dug into her backpack and whipped out a purple binder labeled Devo. "Here: The brief research portion of Ledley's paper (1982:1212) concerned the case report of a 7-pound baby that was born with a caudal appendage 2 inches in length. Shortly after it was born the child was transferred to Children's Hospital Medical Center in Boston where doctors removed the growth. Ledley related that it was a ". . . well-formed caudal appendage" located near the end of the baby's spine; ". . . it was covered by skin of normal texture and had a soft fibrous consistency:' Ledley also noted that there were no vertebrae or even cartilaginous elements in the so-called "caudal appendage: 'Ledley included a helpful review of caudal appendage research. Such cases have been noted throughout history, but very few have been scientifically documented. The rest of Ledley's paper consisted of a bold defense of macroevolution involving ontogeny and comparative embryology. Ledley himself (1982) admitted that the so-called caudal appendage may be nothing more than a dermal appendage which by chance occurred in that position. Reno noted that one explanation of these abnormal caudal appendages is that each is merely a birth abnormality: 'Could not this be the result of a deranged process taking place during embryologic development? The normal process is sometimes altered and as a result we see Siamese twins, cleft palates and harelips. No one would argue that these were once normal conditions in a remote ancestor. A "tail" could be such an anomaly.' Reno (1970:86)" Closing her binder, Meg looks up at Frankie and Melody. "See, the surgeon removing the tail would not have necessarily checked for species. He or she would have assumed that it was just a developmental anomaly and left it alone after getting what he saw as safe margins. This doesn't preclude he or she from missing the magically affected tissue. Rather it helps to explain how they missed it." Checking her watch, Meg swears under her breath, "I have to go, Gross lab in five minutes and I still need to change. See you guys around." With that, Meg steps back into the fireplace and disappears. And there you have it, says Frankie. Now Im REALLY hungry. Wanna go for lunch? Melody stands up and steps over scattered paint brushes, markers and pig-themed paraphernalia. Only if we can go for salad. Frankie Lee Citation on caudal appendages taken from: http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/tailbone.html _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp From mary-yahoo at puzzling.org Fri Oct 25 21:04:51 2002 From: mary-yahoo at puzzling.org (Mary) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 07:04:51 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why the Knight Bus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021025210451.GB3481@titus.spanky> No: HPFGUIDX 45791 On Fri, Oct 25, 2002, dowen331 wrote: > One other aspect of apparation: Having just caught up on reading old > JKR interviews, I read in one of them that apparation is regulated by > the MOM, and that anytime a wizard apparates the MOM knows about it. > (This is how they keep wizards from apparating into bank vaults, etc.) Wouldn't Gringotts have the protection from apparation that Hogwarts has? That said, I guess having strangers able to apparate inside your house is equally undesirable. The protection Hogwarts has from apparation is presumably a difficult and unusual protection, not something every wizard casts on their house (the Weasleys obviously haven't anyway - Percy apparates downstairs every morning after he passes his test). I'm surprised that they don't do the same thing for portkeys, given that Voldemort's trick with the cup would do nicely for robbing someone, or getting inside Gringott's (you do need to convince someone to take it inside their house or vault though). -Mary From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 25 21:12:20 2002 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 16:12:20 -0500 Subject: Brooms [ was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why brooms and not carpets?] In-Reply-To: <3DB9AE97.000001.39847@i3a2c5> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021025160900.06fc4270@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45792 >bboy_mn makes general commnets: > >One thought about broom vs carpet is that brooms are not sweeping >brooms. They are not mubble object enchanted to have flying >characteristics. They are magical devices made specifically for flying. This is a very interesting suggestion. Could it be that the loophole in the no-enchanting-muggle-artifacts law is that it does not apply to wizard manufactured items regardless of whether they LOOK like muggle items, but only to articles of original muggle manufacture that were later enchanted? Jim From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Oct 25 21:22:54 2002 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 07:22:54 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Robes and other Clothing In-Reply-To: <3DBA3FAF.19682.179364@localhost> References: <6f.2fdcb98f.2aeab119@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DBA42CE.22665.23C409@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 45793 On 26 Oct 2002 at 7:09, Shaun Hately wrote: > The point is, those costumes were chosen for a very specific reason in both the > book and the film - and certainly not because they were intended to be normal > school uniform. I have just found the first chapter of 'Lord of the Flies' online as an excerpt, and it confirms my memory: "Within the diamond haze of the beach something dark was fumbling along. Ralph saw it first, and watched till the intentness of his gaze drew all eyes that way. Then the creature stepped from mirage on to clear sand, and they saw that the darkness was not all shadow but mostly clothing. The creature was a party of boys, marching approximately in step in two parallel lines and dressed in strangely eccentric clothing. Shorts, shirts, and different garments they carried in their hands; but each boy wore a square black cap with a silver badge on it. Their bodies, from throat to ankle, were hidden by black cloaks which bore a long silver cross on the left breast and each neck was finished off with a hambone frill. The heat of the tropics, the descent, the search for food, and now this sweaty march along the blazing beach had given them the complexions of newly washed plums. The boy who controlled them was dressed in the same way though his cap badge was golden. When his party was about ten yards from the platform he shouted an order and they halted, gasping, sweating, swaying in the fierce light. The boy himself came forward, vaulted on to the platform with his cloak flying, and peered into what to him was almost complete darkness." ""I ought to be chief," said Jack with simple arrogance, "because I'm chapter chorister and head boy. I can sing C sharp."" "As if released from class, the choir boys stood up, chattered, piled their black cloaks on the grass. Jack laid his on the trunk by Ralph. His grey shorts were sticking to him with sweat. Ralph glanced at them admiringly, and when Jack saw his glance he explained." Just a few quotes to illustrate the point (in case anyone is interested). Those clothes in Lord of the Flies, were choristers robes, were viewed as 'strangely eccentric' even by the other boys (who had been described as wearing normal school uniform), and when they take them off, they are apparently wearing regular school uniform underneath. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From pepsiboy71 at mac.com Fri Oct 25 21:30:16 2002 From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (kaarlo moran) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:30:16 -0400 Subject: Richard Harris has passed away In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45794 If anyone has CNN, please turn it on. Mr Harris apparently died in London...I'm not sure if this was due to complications from his Cancer Treatment... -Padawanmage From john at queerasjohn.com Fri Oct 25 21:53:03 2002 From: john at queerasjohn.com (queerasjohn) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:53:03 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Richard Harris' death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45795 *claps hands and banners in Great Hall of HPFGU change to a somber black arrangement* As many of you know, Richard Harris, who played Albus Dumbledore in the PS/SS and CoS movies, has died today of cancer. Please feel free to talk about it over on HPFGU-OTChatter, and keep your browsers tuned to The Leaky Cauldron @ http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org for the very latest in official news. Sadly, --John Moderator Team From kerelsen at quik.com Fri Oct 25 23:20:06 2002 From: kerelsen at quik.com (Bernadette M. Crumb) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:20:06 -0400 Subject: Knight Bus? -not free. and "wand" or "wand hand"? References: <1035579220.5407.56990.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <00f801c27c7d$0f2da100$d289d5d1@kerelsen> No: HPFGUIDX 45796 -----Original Message---- > Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:46:10 -0000 > From: "jastrangfeld" >Where is everyone getting this idea that the Knight Bus is either >cheap or free? I encourage you to go back an reread that there! > >> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jodel at a... wrote: >> >The bus is hailed by sticking out one's wand HAND, not one's >> wand. >> >Me: SNIP > >Now, I can see that Harry has raised his arm and illuminated his >wand, trips, loses his wand, and maybe just maybe his hand is still >stuck up in the air, and maybe that is why the bus is summoned. But >if so, even with the accent Stan has, he still states "Stuck out your >wand 'and, dincha?" Er, Stan DOES say "wand hand" albeit in that dialect that has people making assumptions on the class issue. The words "wand 'and" is NOT "wand AND" but a dialectical way of showing Stan's dropped aitches... Stan DID say Harry stuck out his wand hand NOT his wand. >And it's definately not free. True... and I can't really see that it's all that cheap, really. How many sickles make a Galleon? Eleven sickles is still a couple of pounds sterling, if I'm calculating correctly. (Er, I think I'll leave my discussion about the inconsistency of Wizarding World prices for another time.) > >If I have the only version of PoA in which Harry pays money, and Stan >says "Wand" and not "Wand hand" in that sentence, please let me know, >because I'm betting it'd be worth something! Yes, it would be. But, unfortunately, your copy is the same as mine. Bye the bye, I'm sure most of you have heard the sad news about actor Richard Harris (I hope this digression into OT is permissible). I had the privilege of seeing him perform live in CAMELOT back in 1983 at the National Theatre in Washington DC, and when I first read HPPS the first time and before TCTTCNBN had any publicity, I had envisioned Dumbledore as Mr. Harris. We've lost a real talent. Bernadette/RowanRhys (who is looking for a Canadian copy of POA for comparison purposes for a college class and getting frustrated by the search) "Life's greatest happiness is to be convinced we are loved." - Victor Hugo, Les Miserables, 1862 From kellybroughton at yahoo.com Fri Oct 25 23:49:19 2002 From: kellybroughton at yahoo.com (kelly broughton) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 16:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Richard Harris' death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021025234919.42626.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45797 For some reason, I am unable to access the Leaky Cauldron, and it's been like this for quite some time (ever since they changed servers or whatever the hell they were doing!) Is the url correct? -kel --- queerasjohn wrote: > *claps hands and banners in Great Hall of HPFGU change to a somber black > > arrangement* > > As many of you know, Richard Harris, who played Albus Dumbledore in the > PS/SS and CoS movies, has died today of cancer. Please feel free to talk > > about it over on HPFGU-OTChatter, and keep your browsers tuned to The > Leaky Cauldron @ http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org for the very latest > in > official news. > > Sadly, > > --John > Moderator Team > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From sugarkadi at aol.com Sat Oct 26 00:24:54 2002 From: sugarkadi at aol.com (sugarkadi at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:24:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why the Knight Bus? Message-ID: <25.2fd812d7.2aeb3ad6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45798 Constant Viligance wrote: Presumably, all adult wizards can apparate. Or is this something that is only available to those who can prove skill and qualify for a license? Me: I have a thought that I haven't seen posted(forgive me if I missed it!). I guess my thoughts are that wizards can make themselves apparate, but they can't make objects apparate with them. Of course, they don't end up naked after the apparate, but maybe it excludes clothing, or there's a limit to how much materila you can apparate with you. Like a really strong wizard(like Dumbledore) could apparate with a kid on his shoulders, while regular wizards manage with their clothing and whatever's in the pockets. The main thing that backs this up is the fact that Harry and the Weasleys had to take a portkey to the QWC. Why would they do this if the kids could just grab a hold of Arthur and be apparated? Does anyone else have thoughts on this? ~Katey, who's hugely sad that Richard Harris died, and spent the better part of an hour crying, but is okay now. *sniff* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From notcarlos at hotmail.com Fri Oct 25 21:32:26 2002 From: notcarlos at hotmail.com (Jacob Lewis) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 16:32:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Robes, and what is under them, and TMTSNBN References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45799 Bluesqueak scripsit: > Robes: > Archie probably *is* eccentric as underclothes were certainly worn > in medieval monastries. Tut, tut. As the Rule of St. Benedict, which is in the minds of all other monastic orders when they make their Rules, so illustriously puts it: "Each monk needs only two each of tunics and cowels, [...]. Anything else is superfluous and should be banished." Additionally, in a book I belive to be titled "A History of Undergarments" -- lovely book by Dover, everyone should own one -- the first male undergarments really show up in the 12th and 13th centuries, if memory serves. As for > In addition, no underclothes under robes > would be - how do I put it? - a little inconvenient for the girls at > least once they hit puberty. Yes, women's undergarments show up a little earlier than men's -- and of course all of this is subject to your comfort levels and climate. > Time and cost probably said the 'cloak over school uniform' was the > better option and wouldn't cause the cinematographer and lighting > designer to tear their hair out trying to film/light tons of dull, > light absorbing black-on-black uniforms[grin]. Occam's Razor is always the best solution. (grin) Jacob Lewis ----------------------------------------------- One can never have enough socks [...]. Another Christmas has come and gone and I didn't get a single pair. People will insist on giving me books. -- Albus Dumbledore, "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sat Oct 26 00:39:49 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 00:39:49 -0000 Subject: Portkeys and anti-aparition (WAS: Why the Knight Bus?) In-Reply-To: <20021025210451.GB3481@titus.spanky> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45800 Mary wrote: > Wouldn't Gringotts have the protection from apparation that Hogwarts > has? That said, I guess having strangers able to apparate inside your > house is equally undesirable. The protection Hogwarts has from > apparation is presumably a difficult and unusual protection, not > something every wizard casts on their house (the Weasleys obviously > haven't anyway - Percy apparates downstairs every morning after he > passes his test). > > I'm surprised that they don't do the same thing for portkeys, given > that Voldemort's trick with the cup would do nicely for robbing > someone, or getting inside Gringott's (you do need to convince > someone to take it inside their house or vault though). > > -Mary It has been especulated that anti-aparition charms do, indeed, stop aparition in all its forms, including portkeys. By this theory, an exception was made for the portkey!Cup, which was rigged and allowed by Dumbledore specifically to allow the winning champion to be portkey'ed directly back to the entrance (for once thing, the champion wouldn't have to go throught the maze again, and it wouldn't give other champions the occasion of making a grab for the cup which is of course illegal and thus a part of the competition). This ties with the idea that it seems strange that Crouch!Moody didn't rig a portkey himself to make Harry disparate. After all, people have pointed out, he could've used as nicely Harry's toothbrush and send him into Voldemort's blossom any other day, didn't he? By this theory, it is not that easy: Dumbledore alone knows the way to override the protection, and Crouch!Moody has no aparent reason to ask for a Portkey. Of course, once the Portkey is prepared to be used within Hogwarts, it is easy (says the theory) to add an extra stop. Note that change the destination is difficult, since it's departing from an unchartable and apparition-banned place (which is difficult to prepare) and arriving to another such place (which also needs very advanced magic). Maybe real!Moody would've been able to prepare his own portkey (not that he would've had any reason to do so), but for Crouch!Moody it was far beyond his abilities, so he just introduced that extra stop. Yes, this is the official explanation for the Portkey!Cup!Twist in MAGIC DISHWASHER Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, very sorry for Harris' death From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sat Oct 26 00:56:45 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 00:56:45 -0000 Subject: Why the Knight Bus? In-Reply-To: <25.2fd812d7.2aeb3ad6@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45801 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., sugarkadi at a... wrote: > Constant Viligance wrote: > > Presumably, all adult wizards can apparate. Or is this something that > is only available to those who can prove skill and qualify for a > license? > > > Me: > I have a thought that I haven't seen posted (forgive me if I missed > it!). I guess my thoughts are that wizards can make themselves > apparate, but they can't make objects apparate with them. Of course, > they don't end up naked after the apparate, but maybe it excludes > clothing, or there's a limit to how much materila you can apparate > with you. Like a really strong wizard(like Dumbledore) could apparate > with a kid on his shoulders, while regular wizards manage with their > clothing and whatever's in the pockets. The main thing that backs > this up is the fact that Harry and the Weasleys had to take a portkey > to the QWC. Why would they do this if the kids could just grab a > hold of Arthur and be apparated? > > Does anyone else have thoughts on this? > > ~Katey, who's hugely sad that Richard Harris died, and spent the > better part of an hour crying, but is okay now. *sniff* The general consensus tends to be that apparition cannot be used to carry other live beings with you (for example, maybe because the chance of splinching is way too high, so high that in fact it always happens). This comes out from indirect evidence. By all acounts, Lily Potter was a very powerful witch, and yet she *did not apparate away from Voldemort with Harry*. She had enough time, since James bought her time enough to apparate, but even he tells her to "run away", not "aparate away". Other such circunstance is Hagrid's rescue of Harry during that fateful night: Hagrid is sent in the flying motorbike. If apparating with a baby was possible, Dumbledore would probably have found time to use three minutes of his time to apparate at Cedric's Hollow, grab Harry and apparate again to the Dursleys or to some other safe place if things had to be put into motion before leaving Harry with his family. And of course, during the fourth book we see several ocasions in which apparition is used and in every occasion it is a person alone (and never carrying too much baggage, although there is no definite canon one way or the other). Finally, since I'm throwing myself into the fray, I would like to point out that apparition is not something "evey grown wizard knows how to do". In fact, the very first time *we* hear about it we are told (GoF, ch. 6, Sp. Ed., liberal translation) "Apparition isn't easy, and when it is not done properly it can bring very horrible complications [...]There are many adult wizards that don't want to use it. They prefer the broom: is slower, but safer". It seems that a respectable percentage of the WW population don't, in fact, use apparition, simply because it's too dificult. Some of those would prefer taking the knight bus to any other method, since it gives you a warm bed and optional chocolate (I know I'd prefer that to flying a broom during a rainy English night!). Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Oct 26 02:06:09 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 02:06:09 -0000 Subject: Knight Bus, Flying Carpets and Robes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45802 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bluesqueak" wrote: > Archie probably *is* eccentric as underclothes were certainly worn in medieval monastries. In addition, no underclothes under robes would be - how do I put it? - a little inconvenient for the girls at least once they hit puberty.<< The Tres Riches Heures of Jean Duc de Berry depicts people from the fourteenth century, including a peasant couple warming themselves before a fire very obviously not wearing any undergarments, while a wealthier lady lifts her skirt to reveal her shift, but not her drawers, if any. Women's undergarments were commonly crotchless quite late in history, thus the scene in 'The King and I' where the King's harem prostrate themselves and their hoop skirts fly into the air, revealing an, er, oversight in Anna's plan to present them in the garb of European ladies. It is more convenient for the voluminous skirt wearer, at least if chamber pots rather than thrones are in use. Pip said, referring to the CTWMNBN > Time and cost probably said the 'cloak over school uniform' was the better option and wouldn't cause the cinematographer and lighting designer to tear their hair out trying to film/light tons of dull, light absorbing black-on-black uniforms[grin]. > I recall reading that they tried the robes over jeans and rugby shirt look depicted in the American illustrations and found that it didn't 'read' correctly. It looked like the kids were playing dress-up. I have a feeling that the 'dress-up' idea was precisely what JKR had in mind, though. I was reminded of Edward Eager's Half Magic which has some children going back in time to the days of King Arthur costumed in their bathrobes, and my own games of let's pretend. Pippin From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Oct 26 02:14:27 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 02:14:27 -0000 Subject: ...Knight Bus? More on Apparation. In-Reply-To: <25.2fd812d7.2aeb3ad6@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45803 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., sugarkadi at a... wrote: > Constant Viligance wrote: > > Presumably, all adult wizards can apparate. Or is this something that > is only available to those who can prove skill and qualify for a > license? > > > Me: (Katey) > I guess my thoughts are that wizards can make themselves apparate, > but they can't make objects apparate with them. Of course, they > don't end up naked after the apparate, but maybe it excludes > clothing, or there's a limit to how much materila you can apparate > with you. > ...snip... > Does anyone else have thoughts on this? > > ~Katey, bboy_mn responds: Any thought on this, you ask? Boy do I ever. First let's all agree to agree with the statement that apparation is very difficult. So difficult that many wizards (a minority) don't even bother with it. Next, it is extremely complex, there are a lot of factors that can influence the out come of an attempt to apparate. I haven't been able to track down the source, but I've been lead to believe that even the phases of the moon must be taken into account when you apparate. My belief is that you can apparate with anything you can possess. For example, if you are sitting in a chair and apparate, the chair stays behind because you don't possess it. But, if you pick the chair up and hold it, then apparate, the chair goes with you because obviously you are in possession if it. Now to apparating with anything living. You could probably consistently apparate with a plant, even a magic plant, without much trouble. But when it comes to animals, especially magical animals, it becomes more difficult because the magic and the desire of the creature you are apparating with come into play. Then when the living creature that you are apparating with is an intelligent sentient creature or person, again especially if they are magical, apparating becomes very difficult and unpredictable. Even if you tried to apparate with a baby, that baby, at the last second, could see something in the room that caught his/her eye, and the desire or distraction of that thing could contribute errors to your attempt to apparate. If the baby was angry or uncomfortable, that stress could throw off your attempt to apparate. Because of this, I seriously doubt that anyone but the most powerful wizard could kidnap someone or take them against their will by apparation. Anytime another sentient thinking creature is involve a whole new massive set of parameters come into play. You as the apparator are not in contol of the thoughts, desires, and magic of the person you are trying to take with you. Even when they are cooperative, the presents of another person amplifies the variables and uncertainty tremedously. Only a very wise and powerful or a very stupid wizard would attempt to transport another person with them. I also suspect that it's against the law to do so because the potential risk is so high. How do *I* know all this? I don't, I just made it all up BUT.... That's my story and I'm sticking to it! bboy_mn From msbonsai at mninter.net Sat Oct 26 02:44:44 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 02:44:44 -0000 Subject: Was Lupin there when Lilly died? Prof. Trelawney's 1st prediction. spoilers? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45804 Ok, maybe this has been brought up before, I'm not precisely certain. But I'm rereading my way through the books (3rd or 4th time now ;o) ), looking carefully for all these clues you all seem to be coming up with. So, my current thought is: Why does Lupin act all weird whenever Harry brings up what he hears when he's around the demontors? PoA: In chapter 12, where Lupin is helping Harry overcome the dementors with a boggart . . . p 239: "It's getting worse," Harry muttered, biting off the Frog's head. "I could hear her louder that time -- and him -- Voldemort --" Lupin looked paler than usual. p 240: "Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! Go! Run! I'll hold him off --" The sounds of someone stumbling from a room -- a door bursting open -- a cackle of high-pitched laughter -- "I heard my dad," Harry mumbled. "That's the first time I've ever heard him -- he tried to take on Voldemort himself, to give my mum time to run for it . . . ." "You heard James?" said Lupin in a strange voice. Ok, so does this mean that Lupin is: a. frightened for Harry? b. afraid of Voldemort (although according to Harry, Lupin is the only one besides Dumbldore who he's ever heard call Voldemort, Voldemort, instead of He who must not be named. This raises the question, (as we also know that Harry heard the Malfoy's call him Lord Voldemort in that horrible shop in year 2) was he a follower? Could he have been one of the missing people at the graveyard in year four? c. Lupin's afraid Harry will remember something that would place him at the scene? d. frightened of Voldemort? e. none of the above, insert your opinion here :o) ------- Professor Trelawney's 1st prediction. PoA p 426 Dumbledore looked mildly impressed. "Do you know, Harry, I think she might have been." he said thoughtfully. "Who'd have thought it? That brings her total of real predictions up to two. I should offer her a pay raise . . . ." Ok, so we're fairly certain that the 2nd prediction is referring to Pettigrew's escape, to bring Voldemort back to power. But we don't know about that first one. I almost think we're going to find out. Could it have been a prediction about Harry in general defeating Voldemort? Is that why Voldemort goes after Harry? If you look at the way above passage, it's almost like whoever the man is, he and Lilly are certainly trying to protect Harry more than themselves, especially since Voldemort mentions that Lilly does not need to die. I believe we have read elsewhere in the books that Dumbledore knew that Voldemort was after the Potters, and that's why they went into hiding. But what if the reality is that he's after just Harry? Or just the male Potter line? ---- Just some fun thoughts for the weekend :o) Julie - who saw the movie before she read the books, and cannot escape the image of Richard Harris in Dumbldore's role. From ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com Sat Oct 26 03:22:08 2002 From: ingachristsuperstar at yahoo.com (ingachristsuperstar) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 03:22:08 -0000 Subject: Knight Bus, Flying Carpets and Robes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45805 > > Robes: > Time and cost probably said the 'cloak over school uniform' was the > better option and wouldn't cause the cinematographer and lighting > designer to tear their hair out trying to film/light tons of dull, > light absorbing black-on-black uniforms[grin]. > > Pip me: What they were wearing over the uniformish outfits _were_ robes, not cloaks. They were very similar to what lawyers here in Canada and in Britain wear to court - commonly called robes. They are very similar to what judges wear - commonly called judicial robes. And incidently, at least in Canada, under the lawyer's robes one wears a waistcoat (vest), and a skirt or pants. (people wear other things as well obviously, such as a shirt, but I was pointing out the similarities with the uniforms as depicted) I honestly don't know where this 'cloak' thing is coming from. They are robes. Cloaks are more like capes, they wrap around a person. They don't have sleeves. Whether what is in TMTMNBN are exactly what JKR envisioned doesn't change that they are exactly what we call robes. -Ing (who is in law school and is greatly looking forward to being called to the bar so she can wear robes to work) From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Sat Oct 26 05:43:39 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 05:43:39 -0000 Subject: Musings on FB&WTFT Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45806 Now, having fallen behind in reading through the current posts, I suppose I really *should* be spending my time going through them rather then thinking up new posts, but I just couldn't help myself. Especially since, response-dependent person I am, only one person responded on list to my TBAY post, and I haven't even heard a word from the person it was addressed to. But I digress. You see, I've just finished rereading FB&WTFT, and a few thoughts went through my mind. Since I rarely see these books discussed on this list, and we all seem to be starved for new material, I thought I'd bring these thoughts up for devouring. First of all quickly, has it actually been confirmed by JKR that Crookshanks is at least part Kneazle? I hear this rumour everywhere, but I've never actually read a statement. Second, what are everyone's guesses on which creature will come up in COMC in the next book. My vote is for the Griffin, because of the line in the book, 'Though griffins are fierce, a handful of skilled wizards have been known to befriend one.' If that's not a call out for Hagrid, I don't know what is. Thirdly, while reading the description of the Lethifold, I couldn't help but wonder if perhaps undernearth there cloaks, each Dementor is actual a subspecies of the Lethifold. A patronus was the only thing that drove them away, and for some reason, I could see JKR mentioning this because she wanted us to draw the connection. Finally, for the person collecting Fred and George quotes, you might be interested in the one on pg 34, in which Ron apparantly writes above the description of a Puffskein, "I had one of them once. What happened to it? Fred used it for Bludger practice." Anyone else have any thoughts on how these books could be giving us hints for the 'real' books? ~Risti From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Oct 26 05:48:26 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 05:48:26 -0000 Subject: The look of EVIL! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45807 Over in the HPFGU-Movie group there has been a long discussion about how the movie makers are screwing up by not making Daniel Radcliffe's eyes green. There seems to be a commonly help believe that Harry's green eyes are going to be significant in future books. So as this discussion went on, I wondered if there is any precident for 'eye magic' then ....BOING!.... it hit me.... THE EVIL EYE The Evil Eye is real, or at least real in magical mythology and folklore. This is also a very common European 'thing'. Common in much of the 'old country'. Not a big deal, but it just hit me out of the blue that in folklore there does exist the ability to curse someone with a look; ie: eye magic. Can't wait to find out what all that eye stuff is really about. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Oct 26 06:50:53 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 02:50:53 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why brooms and not carpets? Message-ID: <1ba.863275b.2aeb954d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45808 In a message dated 25/10/2002 19:42:46 GMT Standard Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > One thought about broom vs carpet is that brooms are not sweeping > brooms. They are not mubble object enchanted to have flying > characteristics. They are magical devices made specifically for flying. > > I don't have much knowledge of the history and progress of sweeping > brooms, butt flying brooms do not have sweeps made of straw, they are > made of twigs which would make them worthless for sweeping. Not at all! I have a traditional besom broom ( a 'witch's' broom) out in the garden shed. These days you wouldn't use it indoors, I agree, (though in the old says, when floors were flagged, or made of earth, there is no reason why not) but it's still perfectly servicable outside and is an alternative to a rake when it comes to sweeping up autumn leaves. So even today, they are sold and used as Muggle objects. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Oct 26 07:12:34 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 03:12:34 EDT Subject: Was Lupin there when Lilly died? Message-ID: <67.c5bdd2.2aeb9a62@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45809 In a message dated 26/10/2002 05:10:18 GMT Standard Time, msbonsai at mninter.net writes: > So, my current thought is: Why does Lupin act all weird whenever > Harry brings up what he hears when he's around the demontors? > <> > Ok, so does this mean that Lupin is: > > a. frightened for Harry? > b. afraid of Voldemort (although according to Harry, Lupin is the > only one besides Dumbldore who he's ever heard call Voldemort, > Voldemort, instead of He who must not be named. This raises the > question, (as we also know that Harry heard the Malfoy's call him > Lord Voldemort in that horrible shop in year 2) was he a follower? > Could he have been one of the missing people at the graveyard in year > four? > c. Lupin's afraid Harry will remember something that would place him > at the scene? > d. frightened of Voldemort? > e. none of the above, insert your opinion here :o) I think his reaction is simply because he was close to James and Lily. He *wasn't* at their deaths, so Harry reliving it in front of him brings it even closer home than it was before, makes real to him something he has hitherto only imagined. Remember that at that point Lupin probably also blames himself in part for their deaths. He had after all suspected Sirius of being the spy. He must feel that if he had voiced his suspicion at the time, he could have persuaded tham against the choice of Sirius as Secret Keeper. I don't think that he was ever a follower of Voldemort. The fact that *at that stage* Harry has only heard Dumbledore (and the Malfoys) refer to him by name is irrelevant, IMHO. I don't think Sirius baulks at it, does he? This is one of the things that makes me think that McGonagall *wasn't* 'one of the old crowd'. It seems to me that it is those close to Dumbledore in the last campaign who are unafraid of the name. And some of those close to (or who would like to think they are close to) Voldemort. Pettigrew, OTOH, avoids it. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Sat Oct 26 14:58:43 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:58:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Was Lupin there when Lilly died?/ Musings on FB&WTFT References: <67.c5bdd2.2aeb9a62@aol.com> Message-ID: <00b101c27d00$2e08dd00$3f9dcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45810 Eloise writes: > I think his reaction is simply because he was close to James and Lily. He > *wasn't* at their deaths, so Harry reliving it in front of him brings it even > closer home than it was before, makes real to him something he has hitherto > only imagined. I also think that Lupin wasn't there when Lily and James died. His reaction is that of someone hearing the retelling of his close friends death for the first time from someone who was actually there. Harry, though these are repressed memories, was there. He's hearing the actual cries of Lily, laughter of Voldemort, his father's last words to his mother (probably). Also, is it possible there were a full moon that night? I'm a bit too lazy to run check for whatever year that may have possibley been. If so, he'd have been a werewolf and unable to do anything about anything. At this point everyone still thought Sirius was the guilty one, and he had suspected Sirius. And if he'd been a werewolf he wouldn't have even been able to keep an eye on him. And he may have also felt guilty about that, even though there was nothing he could've done. Risti writes: > First of all quickly, has it actually been confirmed by JKR that > Crookshanks is at least part Kneazle? I hear this rumour everywhere, > but I've never actually read a statement. I would swear it was confirmed, but I can't remember where I read it. I really do think I did read it, though. I guess that's not much help. > Second, what are everyone's guesses on which creature will come up in > COMC in the next book. My vote is for the Griffin, because of the > line in the book, 'Though griffins are fierce, a handful of skilled > wizards have been known to befriend one.' If that's not a call out > for Hagrid, I don't know what is. Hmm, a Griffin is a possibility. I definitely think some of these creatures will turn up at some point, or JKR wouldn've spent so much time detailing them. I would like to see a Chimera. Now *that* is a big, bad beast! Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sat Oct 26 15:28:31 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 08:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Was Lupin there when Lilly died? In-Reply-To: <67.c5bdd2.2aeb9a62@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021026152831.94466.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45811 eloiseherisson at aol.com wrote: I think his reaction is simply because he was close to James and Lily. He *wasn't* at their deaths, so Harry reliving it in front of him brings it even closer home than it was before, makes real to him something he has hitherto only imagined. Remember that at that point Lupin probably also blames himself in part for their deaths. He had after all suspected Sirius of being the spy. He must feel that if he had voiced his suspicion at the time, he could have persuaded tham against the choice of Sirius as Secret Keeper. Me: I agree with what you wrote above until we get to the part about Lupin suspecting Sirius of being the spy. On what are you basing this? I always had the distinct impression that Lupin was actually beating himself up for NOT suspecting Sirius, that Sirius' "betrayal" came out of the blue and blindsided everyone. Think about what a close friendship Sirius and James are described as having. In a way, it's good that it turns out to be Peter, as he was evidently somewhat on the fringes. Peter's betrayal isn't anywhere of the same magnitude as if Sirius had been the spy. Peter wasn't like a brother to James, as Sirius was. If Lupin felt guilty about anything, it could have been a possible susceptibility to being drawn in by Voldemort. It was discussed that Lupin was suspected of following Voldemort simply by dint of being a werewolf. Perhaps he was afraid that the werewolf side of him, the dark side, would be inexorably drawn to serving Voldemort, and that was why he was lying low, so that he wouldn't risk becoming a pawn of Voldemort's against his will and against his better judgment. Then, because he had basically withdrawn from his friends, he was unaware of what Sirius was up to (he may have thought, after the fact). He may have felt that his withdrawal from them was selfish, in retrospect, as he might have spotted some unusual behavior coming from Sirius, if he'd only been around to see it. Contrary to your statement, I don't get the impression that Lupin ever thought Sirius was a danger before the Potters were killed. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Oct 26 15:58:58 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 15:58:58 -0000 Subject: Was Lupin there when Lilly died? Prof. Trelawney's 1st prediction. spoilers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45812 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" wrote: > Ok, so does this mean that Lupin is: > > b. afraid of Voldemort (although according to Harry, Lupin is the > only one besides Dumbldore who he's ever heard call Voldemort, Voldemort, instead of He who must not be named. This raises the question, (as we also know that Harry heard the Malfoy's call him Lord Voldemort in that horrible shop in year 2) was he a follower? > Could he have been one of the missing people at the graveyard in year four? The evil Lupin theory, otherwise known as LYCANTHROPE, can be found in message 39362. However at least in my copy of CoS, the Malfoys don't say "Lord Voldemort" in the shop. Lucius says, "the Dark Lord." Crouch!Moody does use the name in GoF, however. There is also the possibility that Lupin was actually present in the graveyard, but unnamed. Pippin From elfundeb at comcast.net Sat Oct 26 16:24:48 2002 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 12:24:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Was Lupin there when Lilly died? References: <20021026152831.94466.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002001c27d0c$3407c840$3a3b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 45813 eloiseherisson at aol.com wrote: I think his reaction is simply because he was close to James and Lily. He *wasn't* at their deaths, so Harry reliving it in front of him brings it even closer home than it was before, makes real to him something he has hitherto only imagined. Remember that at that point Lupin probably also blames himself in part for their deaths. He had after all suspected Sirius of being the spy. He must feel that if he had voiced his suspicion at the time, he could have persuaded tham against the choice of Sirius as Secret Keeper. And Barb answered: I agree with what you wrote above until we get to the part about Lupin suspecting Sirius of being the spy. On what are you basing this? I always had the distinct impression that Lupin was actually beating himself up for NOT suspecting Sirius, that Sirius' "betrayal" came out of the blue and blindsided everyone. Think about what a close friendship Sirius and James are described as having. In a way, it's good that it turns out to be Peter, as he was evidently somewhat on the fringes. Peter's betrayal isn't anywhere of the same magnitude as if Sirius had been the spy. Peter wasn't like a brother to James, as Sirius was. Me: I'm not Eloise, but I can answer this. In ch. 19, in answer to Pettigrew's attempt to convince Lupin that Sirius must be lying because he would've told Lupin about switching Secret-Keepers, Lupin says it was because Sirius suspected Lupin of being the spy. Sirius asks forgiveness, and Lupin then states, "And will you, in turn, forgive me for believing you were the spy?" This raises the question why Lupin would have suspected James' best friend. You suggest, I think correctly, that Peter was on the fringe of the James-Sirius "double act". I wonder if Lupin also felt himself to be on the fringe, and if there may not have been some lingering animosity between he two over the Prank, as Lupin had everything to lose if Sirius' little joke had succeeded, but I don't get the sense that Lupin would ever have confronted Sirius over the issue. The slight chill between the two would have provided the impetus for each to suspect the other. I agree that Lupin felt himself responsible for the Potters' deaths because he had not voiced his suspicions, and that he was far from Godric's Hollow that night. His reaction to the impact of the Dementor on Harry is understandable, since Lupin himself lost everything the night the Potters died. His long explanation in the Shrieking Shack makes clear that the friendship of WPP was the most important thing in the world to him, something for which he was willing to take enormous risk. So hearing Harry's explanation must have brought back emotions he had worked hard to suppress all those years. Also, Lupin's instinctive reaction was to comfort Harry, which is why he made a move toward him, but he wasn't prepared to reveal his friendship with James to Harry. Debbie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 26 16:46:03 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 16:46:03 -0000 Subject: Fantastic Beasts, Monks underwear or lack thereof, and Costumes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45814 Risti writes: > what are everyone's guesses on which creature will come up in > COMC in the next book. My vote is for the Griffin, because of the > line in the book, 'Though griffins are fierce, a handful of > skilled wizards have been known to befriend one.' If that's not a > call outfor Hagrid, I don't know what is. They're also described as being employed to guard treasure. Which does suggest a few possible plot lines to my mind, yes (now which of the Trio would be really *keen* on finding treasure ). Lethifolds do seem to be similar to Dementors ? described as resembling a long black cloak, so maybe the cloak is part of the Dementor, or alternatively, the Dementor's black cloak is made of Lethifold skin? Errgh! My vote for the funniest beast is the Pogrebin; especially the comment that `Kicking has also been found effective.' (p. 33) Jacob Lewis points out (as does Pippin): > Tut, tut. As the Rule of St. Benedict, which is in the minds of > all othermonastic orders when they make their Rules, so > illustriously puts it:"Each monk needs only two each of tunics > and cowels, [...]. Anything else issuperfluous and should be > banished." Oops! Bad Pip!Squeak! ::::Goes and bangs her head on the oven door whilst repeating "I must not rely on secondary sources. I must not rely on secondary sources ":::: Apologies. You're both quite right. I thought that when my old textbook said that the Benedictine rule specified clothing down to details of undergarments, it meant that monks *had* undergarments. But obviously, they didn't. Veering dangerously towards OT: Ing says: > What they were wearing over the uniformish outfits _were_ > robes, not cloaks. This seems to be a terminology thing here. The sleeved black garments that the children are wearing in class in TMTMNBN are what I would call academic *gowns*, not robes. They are part of the uniform. There is also a cloak, sleeveless, which is used for outside wear. That's what I meant when I said `cloak over uniform'. The only secondary school in Britain that still has a similar style of gown as part of the uniform is the public [trans. `private and far too expensive for the likes of me'] school Radley College. Otherwise, Oxford and Cambridge Universities still have them in everyday use. One of the publicity pics for what presumably will be called TSMTMNBN [The Second Movie That Must Not Be Named] shows Draco wearing his Slytherin cloak over a plain black costume. Leaky Cauldron link for the pic is http://www.mantissa.org/~lcauldron/images/2002/10/LuciusDraco2.jpg The definition problems for Draco will probably give you an idea why black on matt black is such a bad idea in movies. Note that they've used nice shiny buttons and different clothing textures to try and avoid the problem with Lucius. Pip!Squeak [who sincerely hopes she's got her facts right this time!] From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 26 19:20:18 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 19:20:18 -0000 Subject: Was Lupin there when Lilly died? In-Reply-To: <002001c27d0c$3407c840$3a3b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45815 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., elfundeb wrote: (regarding Barb's question of whether or not Remus had suspected Sirius) > > I'm not Eloise, but I can answer this. In ch. 19, in answer to Pettigrew's attempt to convince Lupin that Sirius must be lying because he would've told Lupin about switching Secret-Keepers, Lupin says it was because Sirius suspected Lupin of being the spy. Sirius asks forgiveness, and Lupin then states, "And will you, in turn, forgive me for believing you were the spy?" > But this doesn't indicate that Lupin suspected Sirius before the Potter's deaths, does it? Like Barb, I interpreted Lupin's words to mean that he believed in Sirius' guilt once Sirius was arrested, not that he had any suspicions beforehand. I can see how it could be interpreted either way, though. And either scenario would give Lupin more than sufficient cause for guilt. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From the.gremlin at verizon.net Sat Oct 26 19:59:10 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 19:59:10 -0000 Subject: Robes and other Clothing In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021025125354.00a36b60@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45816 I'm pretty much going off of what everyone else has said on this subject so far, and reporting my own findings. In SS, after Hermione comes in to the compartment and the whole fight with Malfoy and Co., there is this bit of text: "He [Harry] and Ron took their *jackets* and *pulled* on their *long* black robes. Ron's were a bit short for him, you could see his sneakers underneath them" (110, US edition, emphasis mine). This passage only says that they pull off their jackets, then pull their robes on. When I read that the first couple of times, I thought they wore their robes over their Muggle clothing. This passage implies that Ron and Harry are wearing *something* underneath*, if they only pull off their jackets. Someone else said that they thought dress robes and/or girl's robes were longer, but this part says that robes should be long enough to cover the shoes. Of course, Harry is just wearing his for the first time, so he might only think they were supposed to cover his shoes. Also, in Madame Malkin's shop, she "slipped a long robe over his head and began to pin it to the right length" (77, US Edition). The school robes are pull-overs, not buttoning or tying in the front, as demonstrated in the CTMNBN. Later on, in GoF: "He [Ron, in a bad mood] talk much as they changed into their school robes..." (170, US Edition). Now, Hermione is in this compartment. She never leaves that compartment, as there is no mention of her leaving when the boys change. In CoS, there is mention of her waiting outside the curtained-off area of the hospital wing while Ron helps Harry change into his pajamas after the bludger incident. I'm going to take this as they do wear something under their robes, enough so that a bunch of 12 year olds would not be self-concious about changing into their robes in front of the opposite sex. -Acire, who heard about Richard Harris's death, told her boyfriend, and the first thing that came to mind was "Who's going to play Dumbledore"? She is appropriately saddened, though. From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 26 20:20:18 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 20:20:18 -0000 Subject: Musings on FB&WTFT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45817 Risti asked: >>>Second, what are everyone's guesses on which creature will come up in COMC in the next book. My vote is for the Griffin, because of the line in the book, 'Though griffins are fierce, a handful of skilled wizards have been known to befriend one.' If that's not a call out for Hagrid, I don't know what is.<<< Hmmm, I like the griffin idea. Dangerous enough for Hagrid's taste, and interesting enough for the students. Plus the link to Dumbledore's knocker and just the name Gryffindor alone. Not that Hagrid would be too keen on them, but a class showing the distinguishing characteristics of the pixies, imps, and fairies could be interesting and a quite mischievous. Imagine a day at Hogwarts with that trio of creatures loose...complete chaos. Then again, it has been done in Lockhart's classroom, so not sure if it would be too monotonous. Maybe that could be foreshadowing though of someone letting the trio of creatures free at Hogwarts to distract everyone... I like the idea of a Jarvey for the class. Since it "tends to confine itself to short (and often rude) phrases in almost a constant stream", Peeves would love it. Plus it looks like "an overgrown ferret", so The Three could tease Malfoy endlessly. My personal favorite for the class is the Mooncalf. The image of that shy creature dancing the night away under the full moon cracks me up. It is like the friendly, twinkle-toed cousin of a werewolf. Melody From kristin at jesusphreaks.org Sat Oct 26 20:52:38 2002 From: kristin at jesusphreaks.org (Risti) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 20:52:38 -0000 Subject: Musings on FB&WTFT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45818 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > I like the idea of a Jarvey for the class. Since it "tends to confine > itself to short (and often rude) phrases in almost a constant stream", > Peeves would love it. Plus it looks like "an overgrown ferret", so > The Three could tease Malfoy endlessly. This was actually something I realized I forgot to mention as soon as I sent off the last post... When I read the section, in my mind I couldn't help but wonder, 'Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing...Jarvey?" An overgrown ferrat that can talk, albeit short, rude phrases in a constant stream? One that lives mostly below ground...like the dungeons, perhaps? Yes, I believe that if Draco Malfoy were to ever get enough skill to become an animagus, are blond friend would become none other then a Jarvey. ~Risti From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Oct 26 21:48:09 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 21:48:09 -0000 Subject: Musings on FB&WTFT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45819 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > My personal favorite for the class is the Mooncalf. The image of that shy creature dancing the night away under the full moon cracks me up. It is like the friendly, twinkle-toed cousin of a werewolf. > Surely the Mooncalf is nothing else than Lewis Carroll's Mock Turtle, which danced the Lobster Quadrille? http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/People/rgs/alice-table.html Pippin From elfundeb at comcast.net Sat Oct 26 22:21:04 2002 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 18:21:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Was Lupin there when Lilly died? References: Message-ID: <000d01c27d3d$f97d2300$3a3b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 45820 I said: In ch. 19, in answer to Pettigrew's attempt to convince Lupin that Sirius must be lying because he would've told Lupin about switching Secret-Keepers, Lupin says it was because Sirius suspected Lupin of being the spy. Sirius asks forgiveness, and Lupin then states, "And will you, in turn, forgive me for believing you were the spy?" > And Marina responded: But this doesn't indicate that Lupin suspected Sirius before the Potter's deaths, does it? Like Barb, I interpreted Lupin's words to mean that he believed in Sirius' guilt once Sirius was arrested, not that he had any suspicions beforehand. I can see how it could be interpreted either way, though. And either scenario would give Lupin more than sufficient cause for guilt. Me again: The reason I think Lupin suspected Sirius before the Potters' death is that from the context, it's clear that Sirius suspected Lupin before then (or he would have told Lupin of the change), and the apology seems to be reciprocal, i.e., both relating back to the same time. The reason an apology appears to be needed is that each believed the other to be the spy at a time when they were nominally friends with one another and, more importantly for purposes of betrayal, with James. For either to suspect the other of treason is a very grave matter and each wronged the other by their mutual distrust. I guess I favor my interpretation because I don't think Lupin needs to ask forgiveness for believing Sirius was the spy after Sirius, who to his knowledge was the Secret-Keeper, was captured and was reported by eyewitnesses as having killed Pettigrew. Debbie defender of Lupin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gr8lake5 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 26 23:56:22 2002 From: gr8lake5 at yahoo.com (gr8lake5) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 23:56:22 -0000 Subject: What's in a Name? (The meaning of flowers) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45821 So, I was searching for what an African violet means and I found this information. I thought it was interesting and so I decided to share it. (All information taken from: http://www.growerdirect.com/flowertriva.htm) Lily means, among other things purity. The site also says "Throughout the ages, the lily has stood for purity and sweetness, modesty, whiteness and fragility. Various species are widely referenced in Greek mythology." Poppy means Consolation. Narcissa means Egotism and Formality. Petunia means "I Am Furious!" (I like that one). It's almost eerie how accurate some of these meanings are. Just thought I'd share. ~Erie From jadethe2nd at yahoo.com Sat Oct 26 23:11:04 2002 From: jadethe2nd at yahoo.com (Jade) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 16:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prof. Trelawney's 1st prediction In-Reply-To: <1035637610.2894.86150.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021026231104.33153.qmail@web21401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45822 Julie wrote: >Ok, so we're fairly certain that the 2nd prediction >is referring to >Pettigrew's escape, to bring Voldemort back to power. > >But we don't know about that first one. I almost >think we're going >to find out. Could it have been a prediction about >Harry in general >defeating Voldemort? Is that why Voldemort goes >after Harry? If you >look at the way above passage, it's almost like >whoever the man is, >he and Lilly are certainly trying to protect Harry >more than >themselves, especially since Voldemort mentions that. >Lilly does not >need to die. I believe we have read elsewhere in the >books that >Dumbledore knew that Voldemort was after the Potters, >and that's why >they went into hiding. But what if the reality is >that he's after >just Harry? Or just the male Potter line? The theory that Trelawney's first prediction was that Harry would defeat Voldemort is one I've heard a lot... but there's one reason why I don't quite buy it. Why would Voldemort trust a prediction from someone who at that time had NEVER made a real prediction? I mean, of course you can explain it in any number of ways (which I'm sure you can come up with for yourselves so I'm not going to bother--it's late and I'm tired), but still, something makes me think that's not quite it. It's too obvious, for one thing. Of course that still leaves the question of what the first prediction actually WAS... But somehow I think the reason for LV wanting to kill Harry has to go a lot deeper than a prediction from someone who's only made false ones in the past. I DO think that we'll find out what that first prediction was, and that it will have something to do with Harry and/or Voldemort. In fact I'm certain of it. What if, for instance, Trelawney predicted that Tom Riddle would become one of the most powerful Dark Wizards of all time (btw, does anyone have some more exact information as to Trelawney's age than 'middle-aged'?). Maybe she went to school with him or something. Of course, no one believed her until it was too late... Maybe after this first prediction she made another one, completely untrue, but which led LV to conclude that Harry was a threat. There are about a billion other theories once you get past the 'she predicted that Harry would defeat Voldie' one (is there an acronym for that?). I for one will be quite disappointed if that turns out to be it, if only because it's obvious and I like to be surprised (I also like to feel clever when I figured something out that nobody else did, if half the readers figure the same thing it's not the same :D). Jade, pondering __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 27 00:16:05 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 00:16:05 -0000 Subject: Musings on FB&WTFT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45823 Risti wrote: >>>Yes, I believe that if Draco Malfoy were to ever get enough skill to become an animagus, are blond friend would become none other then a Jarvey.<<< Given that we only have what...4,5,6...six examples of an animagus wizard and they all are "muggle" animals, I do wonder if the animal kingdom available to them also extends to the magical? Would the skills and traits of that magical creature also be available to the wizard? While the animagus wizard still has the mental capacity of their human form, they are limited to the physical capacities of the creature. (i.e. they can't talk as their animal form, but are capable of reading a newspaper.) So, if they were to become a...let's say, since we all know their characteristics...a kneazle. They would look cat-like and have the ability also to detect suspicious people. Would be an advantageous animagus transformation I think. So, if your personality is most similar to a kneazle or even a pixie (I know a few people who are), why wouldn't you become an animagus of that magical creature? Melody who is also just musing but feels there probably is some rule in one of JKR's notebooks somewhere that says they can't From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Sun Oct 27 01:34:05 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 01:34:05 +0000 Subject: Animagi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021027012646.00968720@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45824 (on a point of pure LOONy pedantry) At 00:16 27/10/02 +0000, Melody wrote: >Given that we only have what...4,5,6...six examples of an animagus wizard >and they all are "muggle" animals, I do wonder if the animal kingdom >available to them also extends to the magical? err... I count five (Potter, Pettigrew, Black, McGonagall and Skeeter). Who's the sixth? Or are you counting Lupin, who's a werewolf, not an Animagus? >Would the skills and traits of that magical creature also be available >to the wizard? I don't see why not. Just because magical creatures are unusual to us Muggles, there wouldn't appear to be any intrinsic reason for Animagery to limit itself to those creatures unseen by Muggles. Then again, we know very little about Animagery and so anything is possible. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who's getting behind again and has a collection of about 30 posts he wants to reply to but can't get around to it... From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Sun Oct 27 02:05:38 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 02:05:38 +0000 Subject: Robes. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021027013418.00972720@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45825 (I should ideally collect together replies to various posts on this topic together but I know that if I start doing that, I'll never actually get the post out, so I'll probably end up with several shorter posts rather than one long one. Apologies.) At 03:22 26/10/02 +0000, ingachristsuperstar wrote: >What they were wearing over the uniformish outfits _were_ >robes, not cloaks. They were very similar to what lawyers here in >Canada and in Britain wear to court - commonly called robes. They might be called robes in Canada, but in the UK, they're called gowns (yes, I know that Canadian court attire is the same as it is in the UK). >They are very similar to what judges wear - commonly called >judicial robes. Judges' robes are very different to lawyers' gowns, and that is one of the reasons why they're called "robes" rather than "gowns", :-) A couple of examples on the WWW: A BBC story from several years ago about proposals to "modernise" court dress: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/211654.stm (note specific usage of "gowns" and "robes") From the online catalogue of one of the leading UK legal outfitters: http://www.stanley-ley.co.uk/acatalog/index.html?http%3A//www.stanley-ley.co .uk/acatalog/catalogbody.html&CatalogBody >I honestly don't know where this 'cloak' thing is coming from. The first year supplies list, which includes, and I quote: 1. Three sets of plain work robes (black) 4. One winter cloak (black, silver fastenings) >They are robes. Cloaks are more like capes, they wrap around a >person. They don't have sleeves. Which is *exactly* my point. In TMTSNBN, the kids have cloaks. The question is what they wear underneath the cloaks, which in TMTSNBN as well as in the books, aren't worn at all times (hence "winter cloaks"). There is absolutely no argument that the movie cloaks have a canonical origin. As I've said before, can we PLEASE draw the distinction between "cloak" and "robe(s)"! In the supplies list, there is no mention of trousers, sweaters, shirts or ties. Anyone who has ever attended a British school or prepared a child's supplies to attend a British secondary school knows that the school uniform list includes specifications for these items. Such a list also includes specifications for a jacket or blazer; Hogwarts replaces this with a cloak, so it stands to reason that the shirt, trousers and tie that one would expect on a British supplies list has been replaced with a robe. I have said that I do not dispute that despite canonical silence on the issue, Hogwarts pupils probably wear shirts and trousers under their robes (as do real-world priests under their cassocks, or judges under their robes). The point I have been making is that the shirts and trousers do not form part of the uniform (i.e. are not of a required colour or design). >Whether what is in TMTMNBN are exactly what JKR envisioned >doesn't change that they are exactly what we call robes. Since when do you call trousers and sweaters "robes"? :-) I know there are some linguistic differences between Canadian and British English, but I've not encountered that one before. :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who's been in English courts in a professional capacity often enough to know the terminology. :-) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Oct 27 03:12:14 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 03:12:14 -0000 Subject: More Animagus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45826 I tried to find the Animagus thread or post where someone speculated that you don't get to choose your animagus animal. While I tracked several threads, couldn't find it. I think that is a commonly held belief, at least sufficient that I don't need the original post stating it. First, let's look at the Mauraders (Padfoot, Prongs, & Wormtail; big dog, stag deer, & rat). If the transfomation to an animagus, a true animagus, was somewhat random, that is, you can't pick it, it's determined by your personallity, then how did the Mauraders know that they would transform into animals that were useful? If they had all turned into rats, or say a rat, a squirrel, and a rabbit, (or pick three small furry animals of your own) they would have undergone a very dangerous and illegal tranformation only to find the they had become animals that weren't capable of handling a werewolf. Being able to control Lupin as well as keep him company while he was a werewolf was the whole point of doing it. I will agree that the choice you make is a reflection of your personality. In that sense, it is determine by who you are. But, if I was going to become an animagi, I would probably have some purpose in doing so. The Ministry probably tracks this, among other reason, to make sure people don't have some evil intent behind their desire. So, I certainly wouldn't go through all that risk and trouble unless I knew in advance what it was going to get me. I think 5 of the influential factors are- 1.) your personality 2.) transportation - long and short distance mobility 3.) the Stealth factor - to move around unnoticed 4.) survivability - degree to which you are safe from attack and the ability to feed yourself and survive the elements while in animal form 5.) dexterity - ability to manipulate objects. Basically, how good are your hands. Naturally, you are going to choose an animal you have some affinity with. Cat lovers are probably not going to choose to be a dog. Bird lovers are not going to choose to be a cat. Obviously, each animal has it's advantages and disadvanges. For Rita Skeeter the ability to 'bug' people came in handy. But a bug has poor survivability; bug get squished. So a bug gets a plus on personality match because Rita had a tendency to bug people in a lot of different ways. A plus short distance mobility, a big plus on stealth factor, a minus on survivability because of the 'squish' factor, and a big minus on dexterity. I'm sure you are all smart enough to see the advantages and disavantages of various animals. Being a reasonably big dog has a lot of advantages. They can travel great distances although not very fast, generally unnoticable, good survivability unless you run into animal control people, not real high in the dexterity area though. Personally, I like birds of prey like hawks, owls, perhaps even ravens or crows. Excellent mobility, good survivability, reasonably good stealth factor, but again poor dexterity. The point I'm making is that becoming an animagi is kind of pointless unless you have some control over what you become. I just can't see people going through all that to become a random and possibly useless animal. JKR did say in an interview that what you become was determined by your personality, but I'm not sure that the question was asked in a way that implied the animal was dictated by your personality. Certainly, your personality will influence your animal, but again, it seems pointless if the animal form is forced on you. Just a few thoughts on the subject. bboy_mn From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Oct 27 03:28:47 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 22:28:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Robes/ Analyzing Fred & George (PoA) References: <4.2.0.58.20021027013418.00972720@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <004501c27d68$f68e8000$579ccdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45827 ingachristsuperstar wrote: > >They are robes. Cloaks are more like capes, they wrap around a > >person. They don't have sleeves. GulPlum writes: > Which is *exactly* my point. In TMTSNBN, the kids have cloaks. The question is what they wear underneath the cloaks, which in TMTSNBN as well as in the books, aren't worn at all times (hence "winter cloaks"). There is > absolutely no argument that the movie cloaks have a canonical origin. Then I am thoroughly confused. Because in TMTSNBN, the kids have both cloaks and robes. The cloaks have no sleeves and are rarely seen. The robes do have sleeves, front closure, etc. If those with the sleeves are cloaks, what are the ones without sleeves? The ones I thought were the cloaks? Now, since that is rather off topic I will now change the subject. :) A while back I posted my musings of the twins, Fred and George in SS/PS and CoS. Here is what I found from PoA, with personal comments sprinkled throughout: Fred: (mocking Percy) "Harry! (bows deeply) Simply splendid to see you, old boy--" George: "Marvelous (seizes Harry's hand) Absolutely spiffing." Fred: "Mum!" (seizes her hand) "How really corking to see you--" As Mrs. Weasley mentions Percy has been made head boy--second in the family, Fred says "And last." As Mrs. Weasley notes Fred and George haven't been made prefects, George adds "What do we want to be prefects for? It'd take all the fun out of life." And on the topic of Percy, George comments: "We tried to shut him in a pyramid, but Mum spotted us." Fred asks "How're we getting to King's Cross tomorrow, Dad?" George "explains" why they have cars from MoM: "It's because of you, Perce. And there'll be little flags on the hoods, with HB on them--" Fred: "--for Humongous Bighead." Fred tells Harry that he and George have been "improving" Percy's Head Boy badge (to read Bighead Boy). Harry comes to the Gryffindor table, sits next to George, who says "New third year course schedules. What's up with you Harry?" Ron sits on the other side of George and points out Malfoy's fake "fainting." George then proceeds to tell how Malfoy went running into their compartment when the dementors were at their end of the train. Fred says Malfoy "Nearly wet himself." To which George adds "I wasn't too happy myself. They're horrible things, dementors." Fred says "Sort of freeze your insides, don't they." Harry comments about how they didn't pass out, to which George responds "Forget it, Harry." Proceeds to explain how Mr. Weasley had to go out to Azkaban once and came back "all weak and shaking." Notice here, *Fred* promptly changes the subject to the safe topic of Quidditch. Hmm. Next scene with the twins is Oliver's big speech. Last year, last chance, etc. George inserts "We think you're very good too, Oliver." And then (only after George, notice) Fred adds "Spanking good Keeper." Mmhmm. This I found interesting, the team's talking about facing Hufflepuff, and Cedric Diggory. Fred is the only one who makes a comment here. George stays out of it all together. Fred has this to say about Cedric: "He's only silent because he's too thick to string two words together." And goes on to say how Hufflepuff will be a pushover. I *think* that's the only time anyone says something rude about the pretty soon to be dearly departed Cedric. Next time the twins have lines is after the dementors come to the Quidditch game and Harry is in the hospital after his fall off the broom. Now, normally it is George who asks the how are you, what's wrong, etc. questions. Here, however, it is Fred who breaks the silence with "Harry! How're you feeling?" And adds "You fell off. Must've been--what--fifty feet?" Now, keep in mind the entire team is there (with the exception of Wood), plus Ron and Hermione. Ron was still speechless. Hermione was speechless (except for a little squeak), and we see George was still speechless too. It is left to Fred to say something (I mean, somebody had to!) George chimes in finally to explain what happened, how Diggory got the snitch, tried to call it off, etc. Harry, naturally is upset that they lost, pretty much because of him (though he couldn't help what happened anyway). Fred's comfort is grabbing Harry's shoulder and shaking it roughly (such a guy thing), and says "C'm on, Harry, you've never missed the Snitch before." George adds "There had to be one time you didn't get it." Fred explains how they could still win and so on, and tells Harry "you're still the best Seeker we've ever had." Next scene with the twins involves the Maruader's Map. Fred pulls it out of his cloak, George says it's the secret to their success. Fred adds "It's a wrench, giving it to you, but we decided last night, your need's greater than ours." George adds "Anyway, we know it by heart. We bequeath it to you. We don't really need it anymore." George begins to explain the map, at Fred's request, though Fred takes over for the interesting parts. Anyway, the general impression is that Fred was still slightly hesitant and George leaned more toward giving it up to Harry. May not be true, but that's how I read it. We find out from Ron that *Fred* gave him an acid pop when he was seven that burnt a hole right through his tongue. Interesting, Fred does always seem to be behind the more nasty tricks. Now after Scabbers has been supposedly eaten by Crookshanks, Fred tries to "comfort" him. One of his comments was "It was probably better off for him to snuff it quickly--one swallow--he probably didn't feel a thing." (yeah, that's nice) George added a rather practical and quite frankly true comment "All he did was eat and sleep, Ron, you said it yourself." Fred proceeds to make light of the situation "His finest hour. Let the scar on Goyle's finger stand as a lasting tribute to his memory. Oh, Come on, Ron, get yourself down to Hogsmeade and what's the point of moaning?" Oh, come on Fred, get a grip! (sorry, couldn't help it) First, kids generally do go on for a while after a pet dies. Second, does Ron really have the money to go buy a new rat? I doubt it. Okay, real quick through the rest of the book. There's the Quidditch game over Ravenclaw, where Fred and George say very little. Then the last lines from either of them in the book are from Fred. Flint smashes Angelina. Fred then chucked his Beater's club at the back of Flint's head. Flint's nose smashed into the handle of his broomstick and begin to bleed. Madame Hooch issues penalties to both Gryffindor and Slytherin (in this case seems only fair, Fred did use excessive force). Fred's response is to say (yell?) to Madame Hooch "Come off it, Miss!" Err, that was rather rude. She is a staff member, after all! Well, what do you think of that? First of all, George is less talkative in this book than others. Fred takes the lead here. Second, we have Fred's first show of concern for someone--Harry, as he awakens in the hospital wing. However, I still contend that the others (Ron, Hermione, George, etc.) were in shock. As Alicia said, they thought he'd died. Fred, less emotional usually, was composed. Richelle From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Sun Oct 27 03:58:26 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 03:58:26 +0000 Subject: Robes and LOTF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021027021916.00972100@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45828 At 01:37 25/10/02 +0000, Steve wrote: Bboy_mn introduces examples from the 1963 film of "Lord of the Flies", the relevance of which is not immediately apparent to me... >Note the first photo of boys in 'academic' over-robes including weird >hats, and white collars. Observe the open front on the robe of the >lead boy. You can see his school tie and white shirt. They're not "academic over-robes". They're choristers' capes. Many British Public Schools have established choirs which perform at religious services for the school (and sometimes beyond). We also have "Cathedral Schools", which train and supply choirboys for cathedral services, besides supplying a full curriculum. Different schools have slightly different approaches to dressing their choirs, although in most cases, the choirs dress in scaled-down clerical garb. See here for a famous example: http://histclo.hispeed.com/act/choir/nat/eng/choirengwea.html Some choirs include capes. See here (the same site) for more: http://histclo.hispeed.com/act/choir/gar/choir-cape.html Bear in mind that Lord of the Flies (both the book and the 60s film; let's not mention the 90s adaptation, which transplanted the action and made the boys pupils of an American military academy) is one huge allegory, and is full of metaphors and symbolism. The choristers in their capes perform various symbolic duties. The other boys are wearing disparate uniforms (i.e. they're from different schools) and don't know each other, whilst the choir is the only organised group with an established leader; some of the other boys quickly dispense with their uniforms - and indeed clothes! - (i.e. past/normal lives), whilst the choir keeps their capes for some time. The choir fulfills (by definition) a religious function, and thus should be, for want of a better word, "angelic" - they're proved to be anything but. When they remove their capes, the choristers are revealed to be wearing short trousers and shirts, which I expect to be the case at Hogwarts. Incidentally, they are *not* wearing jumpers (sorry, sweaters) :-) which are an integral part of a British school uniform. BTW, does this description of Jack sound vaguely familiar? "Inside the floating cape, he was tall, thin and bony, and his his hair was red beneath the black cap. This face was crumpled and freckled, and ugly without silliness. Out of his face stared two blue eyes [...] turning, or ready to turn, to anger." :-) >although I don't know the exact date that the movie is taking place. That >is, the date in movie time. The book (and film) don't specify a time or place (other than an island in the Pacific). We're given to understand that there's a huge war going on, and an atom bomb has just been dropped. The implication is that the boys have been evacuated from an unknown location to be delivered to safety. We don't witness the plane crash - all the information comes from the boys' conversations; the story starts with Ralph finding a beach and looking at the wreckage sinking in the sea. >So while I have no trouble with the staff, especially Dumbledore, >wearing old style clothing. I still can't see the kids in completely >Dumbledore/Merlin style free flowing dress-like primary clothing >robes. But I guess we are all allowed to have our own vision as we read. One straight question: how do you square the distinction between "robes" and "cloaks" in the books, and the few descriptions of "robe" as something which goes over the head and reaches the ankles (or lower), with the movies' version of the uniform? :-) As per my other post, regardless of whether JKR was writing the first book with kids or adults in mind, everyone in Britain knows that the first item on a list of school requirements specifies the uniform. The fact that she includes "3 black robes" is to be taken to replace "3 white shirts, 3 pairs black trousers", etc. >Well, we have 'robes', but not much direct detail as far as the >students. I have to assume, and I know assumptions aren't canon, that >if the robes were too odd or extreme, you would have heard someone >comment on it. Dean Thomas is a modern black muggle boy; hard to >believe he's not going to comment about having to wear a dress >everyday. Same with Harry, he grew up completely in the muggle world. >As much as he wants to be a wizard, I can't believe his mind wouldn't >have expressed some discomfort at wearing such odd clothing. For one thing, they have a preconceived image of what a wizard would wear - as does JKR (Merlin, etc) and thus they wouldn't find it out of place to be required to wear something similar. Secondly, getting fitted for their robes would be the time to express any kind of unease about wearing "dresses". Thirdly, none of the Muggle kids express any surprise at any of the outlandish things they see (whether it's Platfom 9 3/4, the ghosts, the squid in the lake or anything else). >The Sketches- >Someone else mention the sketches in the groups 'Harry Potter and Me' >photo album, but as far as I can tell, only adults are shown in robes. In the Weasley sketch, Percy is wearing a robe; the twins and Ron are not. If Percy is *not* wearing a robe, what *is* he wearing? :-) (the "P" badge and the specs leave little doubt as to who he is...). >Note the Mirror of Erised- >The man standing to the right rear of Harry's mother is dressed in a >suit and tie. The older man standing behind Harry's father appears to >be wearing a suit and tie. Very hard to tell though. It looks like his >jacket only goes to just below the butt, and it looks like you can see >the knot in his tie. Overal, this particular person is inconclusive. >Harry's father appears to either be wearing an unusual shirt or a very >light colored light weight over-robe. I assume the man standing behind Lily to be her Muggle dad and therefore it would be strange for him to be wearing anything else. It's impossible to draw any conclusions about what James or the man behind him are wearing. My own view is that this ambiguity is deliberate on JKR's part, as I am of the opinion that James and Lily were living Muggle lives at the time of the attack, and perhaps ever since Harry's birth. >a 'robe' by definition is an over or outer garment which implies some >undergarment beyond (in my opinion) underwear. I don't dispute that as a likely implication in the slightest. I do dispute it as a *necessary* implication, though. After all, "robe" came to English from the French for "dress"; whilst I would *expect* a male to wear something other than underwear underneath something designated a "robe", I wouldn't be surprised if he did not. For example, I know several real-world priests who don't wear anything else underneath their cassocks in summer. >The examples of over-robes in the historic costume sites made them >look very much like a coat (in terms of use). I also fall back on my >comment about JKR's efficient writing style. No need to mention >details unless they move the plot along. You saw the need throughout your post to refer to "over-robes" , which from where I'm sitting indicates that you *do* see a problem with "robes" being anything other than what Percy is wearing in JKR's sketch. :-) >Ah... sorry Amerimuggle here. Could you explain a 'choristers' robe'. >Sorry for showing my ingnorance. Thanks. See above. :-) -- GulPlum AKA RIchard, who's increasingly suspecting that Steve is continuing this conversation purely as an intellectual exercise. :-) From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sun Oct 27 04:48:57 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 21:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Was Lupin there when Lilly died? In-Reply-To: <002001c27d0c$3407c840$3a3b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20021027044857.5932.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45829 I wrote in response to Eloise: I agree with what you wrote above until we get to the part about Lupin suspecting Sirius of being the spy. On what are you basing this? Debbie wrote: I'm not Eloise, but I can answer this. In ch. 19, in answer to Pettigrew's attempt to convince Lupin that Sirius must be lying because he would've told Lupin about switching Secret-Keepers, Lupin says it was because Sirius suspected Lupin of being the spy. Sirius asks forgiveness, and Lupin then states, "And will you, in turn, forgive me for believing you were the spy?" Me, again: Ah, I see what you mean. However, while his statement is somewhat ambiguous, I believe that an exchange that immediately precedes it makes my interpretation more likely: ------------------------------------------------------------- "Remus!" Pettigrew squeaked, turning to Lupin instead, writhing imploringly in front of him. "You don't believe this...wouldn't Sirius have told you they'd changed the plan?" "Not if he thought I was the spy, Peter," said Lupin. "I assume that's why you didn't tell me, Sirius?" he said casually over Pettigrew's head. ------------------------------------------------------------- While it is clear that Lupin meant that Sirius thought Lupin was the spy back before the Potters were killed, it is unlikely that Lupin meant that he thought Sirius was the spy at the same time, since he knew Sirius was the Secret Keeper (this is the "change" that Peter was referring to). I always thought Lupin's statement referred to his having believed Sirius was the spy AFTER he was captured and sent to Azkaban, and all of the years since then (particularly during PoA). I think this passage, in which Peter as much as says that Remus knew Sirius was the Secret Keeper, supports this interpretation. In fact, Sirius' plan may have been to specifically tell Remus, the suspected spy, that HE was the Secret Keeper, and then make it Peter instead. Sirius would know, if someone came after him, that it was possibly because of Remus telling someone. OTOH, Sirius would have been a very obvious person to go after in any case, so it wouldn't have been a definitive test of Remus' loyalty. Debbie wrote: This raises the question why Lupin would have suspected James' best friend. You suggest, I think correctly, that Peter was on the fringe of the James-Sirius "double act". I wonder if Lupin also felt himself to be on the fringe, and if there may not have been some lingering animosity between he two over the Prank, as Lupin had everything to lose if Sirius' little joke had succeeded, but I don't get the sense that Lupin would ever have confronted Sirius over the issue. The slight chill between the two would have provided the impetus for each to suspect the other. Me: I find it hard to reconcile this to canon. First, I've already said why I DON'T think Lupin was suspecting Sirius until after the fact. Second, I hardly think Lupin would have felt at the fringes with three friends who went out of their way to become Animagi and accompanied him during the full moon. If anything, he was the linch-pin of the group because of this. James and Sirius may have been the leaders, but without Lupin, they would probably not have thought of becoming Animagi. They were specifically looking for a way to spend the full moon with him. He was central to the group in a way that Peter never could be. And he must have been overwhelmingly important to them for them to go out of their way like this. That doesn't sound like a person at the fringes. As for animosity because of the prank--I think only Snape is still carrying that resentment around, as he was the almost-victim. It still seems that Lupin was out of touch with the others because he was suspected of being the spy, which is stated clearly in the above passage from PoA. (Chapter 19, "The Servant of Lord Voldemort") elfundeb wrote: Also, Lupin's instinctive reaction was to comfort Harry, which is why he made a move toward him, but he wasn't prepared to reveal his friendship with James to Harry. Me: I find it more likely that he was afraid that revealing his friendship with James would lead to revealing his friendship with Sirius. If Harry suspected that Lupin was still friendly toward Sirius, he might suspect him of conspiring with Sirius to get into the castle. (As Snape suspected.) And in a way, this suspicion would have been on the mark. I think it was his friendship with Sirius that was giving him guilt-pangs, not the friendship with James. But Harry finding out of that would have opened up all of the other information, so he kept it quiet. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 27 05:00:38 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 05:00:38 -0000 Subject: names/Lucius Diary/Meg's Hurricane Spell/Animagi/Swords/Bathrooms Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45830 Kudos to Richard GulPlum for fighting the good fight for canonical Hogwarts uniforms! Freya wrote: << But anyway I wonder why JKR has made some of the character names so obvious, like Hooch, Sprout, Albus... (Albus! He didn't always have white hair!). Like their names would be their destiny or something. Aaargh! I find that annoying. >> Is Hooch an obvious name? Please explain it to me. "Albus" could be named not from his white hair but from his purity, or after Albion (an old named for the island of Britain, based on the sight of the "white cliffs of Dover".) Having so many appropriate names ("appropriate", "obvious", same difference) seems to please rather than annoy most Potterfans. I can't believe that a wizard's name controls his/her destiny, so it must somehow be part of the magic of the wizarding world that a wizard's destiny controls his/her name. One listie has suggested a logical (rather than magical) way for the destiny to control the name, which is that there is a Naming Spell -- I would rather believe that it Just Happens, as all that magic floating around in the environment causes all kinds of "co-incidences". What I don't understand, either way, is why the wizarding folk haven't yet NOTICED how meaningful the names are, and e.g. figured out that young Hogwarts student Remus Lupin was a werewolf as soon as the readers did. The other thing I don't understand is how all this destiny stuff gets along with JKR's preaching of free will. Frankie wrote: << "Here Lord Voldemort plainly states he has had no contact with Lucius from the time of his demise to the time of his rebirth. While he rubs Lucius's face in it for running from the Mark, he does not say anything about diary." >> The MAGIC DISHWASHER folks, who believe that everything Voldemort said in that scene was deliberate disinformation to deceive Harry's side, might take Voldemort's plain statement as *proof* that the opposite is true? Meg incanted: << "Frederick, Georges, Isidore and Camille, make these walls as strong as steel." >> That sounds more like "Sunshine, daisies, butter mellow, Turn this stupid, fat rat yellow." than like "Lumos!" or even "Waddiwasi!" Marianne wrote: << Does a wizard's Animagus form not only reflect traits of the human, but must it also fit logically into the geographic area in which the wizard resides? (snip) For that matter, what about other magical creatures? Why not a dragon or a kelpie? >> I suspect that it is impossible for an Animagus's animal form to be a magical animal, making it impossible for Dumbledore to be a phoenix Animagus. Georgette Tan wrote: << I'm trying to remember if the books mentioned wizards being able to choose their animal forms... or if it gets predetermined based on their character. >> It's not mentioned in the books, but JKR confirmed in interviews that the animal forms of Animagi are predetermined based on their personality. I gave the quotes and the URLs for the entire interviews in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/45616 I have still more questions about Animagery: I want to know, what happens if a person who has become an Animagus goes over the whole training again, from scratch, will heesh get another animal form? Can a person who is a werewolf become an Animagus? with an animal form other than wolf? Can a werewolf who is an Animagus with an animal form other than wolf avoid turning into a wolf monster at Full Moon by turning into hiser animal before the moment? Steve bboy_mn wrote: << If the transfomation to an animagus, a true animagus, was somewhat random, that is, you can't pick it, it's determined by your personallity, then how did the Mauraders know that they would transform into animals that were useful? If they had all turned into rats, or say a rat, a squirrel, and a rabbit, (or pick three small furry animals of your own) they would have undergone a very dangerous and illegal tranformation only to find the they had become animals that weren't capable of handling a werewolf. Being able to control Lupin as well as keep him company while he was a werewolf was the whole point of doing it. >> No. The original plan of becoming Animagi was only to be able to keep Moony company in the Shrieking Shack: "They couldn't keep me company as humans, so they kept me company as animals," said Lupin. "A werewolf is only a danger to people." If they were three mousies, they could have kept him company because, as long as the werewolf didn't go crazy from scenting humans, the werewolf kept enough of his mind to remember that *these* mousies are friends not food. It was only after they had learned Animagery and found out that "Sirius and James transformed into such large animals, they were able to keep a werewolf in check" that they realized that "highly exciting possibilities were open to us now that we could all transform. Soon we were leaving the Shrieking Shack and roaming the school grounds and the village by night." Melody wrote: << What kind of sword would an 11th century knight carry and generally have in his possession? (snip) In the previews of the MTMNBM part II, we see Harry thrusting about a Musketeer-esque sword. Very pretty, very honorable, but this type of sword did not come around till the 16th - 17th century, right? >> Maybe Godric had a magic sword that shape-shifted to match the nearest Gryffindor's expectation of what a sword should be? Ellen the Beekeeper wrote: << As I have pointed out before, Moaning Myrtle's bathroom certainly hasn't been around since the 11th century, so who put the snake on the faucet? Heck- Who installed the trick sink? >> I don't share your certainty... I have the OPPOSITE certainty! I believe that Potterverse wizarding folk have had late twentieth century indoor plumbing and Renaissance 'replica' castles since back before Atlantis sank. They didn't need to know any plumbing, hydraulics, metallurgy, stonecarving, or architecture because they made their bathrooms and castles by MAGIC! However, Muggles who visted wizards and saw the nice things the wizards had, had to invent all that technology in order to imitate the wizarding goodies. There is a long history of Muggles trying to imitate wizarding plumbing: Minoan, Classical Roman, etc. The wizarding folk teach their children a lot of self-enhancing falsehoods. For example, they teach their children that the reason to keep magic secret from Muggles is to avoid being pestered by Muggles wanting favors (and Hagrid, not having completed his education, still believes that), when in reality the wizarding folk went into hiding because they were scared of the Muggles attacking them. Another example is that they teach their children that Muggles use technology to imitate what wizards do by magic. Technology probably *started* that way, Muggles trying to figure out how to make bathrooms and castles and swords like the wizards had ... this may have remained true up to the Steam Age, with Muggles inventing horseless carriages to imitate the horseless carriages that carry students from Hogsmeade Station to Hogwarts, inventing railroads to imitate wizarding self-propelled wagons, gaslight to imitate the magical self-lighting candles on the wall of wizarding houses ... but by then the discovery and invention of science and technology had become self-propelling themselves, and with Electricity, Muggles went on to invent things that the wizarding folk copy. The Wizarding Wireless Network is obviously an imitation of Muggle radio, because it's named after "wireles", the British Muggle name for radio. The wizarding folk would have no other reason to name it "wireless", because they didn't have a preceeding technology named "wire" (the telegraph). From msbonsai at mninter.net Sun Oct 27 03:04:28 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 03:04:28 -0000 Subject: Prof. Trelawney's 1st prediction In-Reply-To: <20021026231104.33153.qmail@web21401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45831 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jade wrote: There are about a billion other theories once you get past the 'she predicted that Harry would defeat Voldie' one (is there an acronym for that?). I for one will be quite disappointed if that turns out to be it, if only because it's obvious and I like to be surprised (I also like to feel clever when I figured something out that nobody else did, if half the readers figure the same thing it's not the same :D). Jade, pondering me: I was thinking about this. It is really obvious. But I don't think it's it. I keep wondering what the centaurs were refering to in PS/SS. Something being so tragic. Then again, JK makes it clear she thinks a lot of that "star gazing" is nonsense. But maybe it refers to a more merged wizard/muggle world? I can't imagine the WW disintigrating, just because what would you then do with wizards who are not found and brought up in wizarding schools, who do things without realizing why, and those who realize why and go to the "dark side"? Julie From msbonsai at mninter.net Sun Oct 27 03:11:10 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 03:11:10 -0000 Subject: Musings on FB&WTFT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45832 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > While the animagus wizard still has the mental > capacity of their human form, they are limited to the physical > capacities of the creature. (i.e. they can't talk as their animal > form, but are capable of reading a newspaper.) > > Melody Me: Hmm. I'm not sure I agree with you on that one. Well, I guess I should explain what I mean, and then you can tell me what you think :o) Sirius said when he transformed, that he had animal emotions rather than human emotions so the dementors were confused. Sirius also said he found a way to communicate with Crookshanks, but never details what it is. Also the 4 ran around town in animal form, surely they communicated together somehow. So I'm wondering what they're doing? Sign language? I would think they'd still be able to talk. Julie From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Sun Oct 27 08:52:42 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 01:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FILK] Rich Death Eater's Son Message-ID: <20021027085242.63169.qmail@web40307.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45833 [Note: I heard this song on the radio the other day, and when I heard the first line, "When I?m a walking, I strut my stuff..." I immediately thought of Draco strutting around the school like he owns the place. The next day, I read on an interview that Daniel Radcliffe is really into original punk music nowadays, and my mind immediately went back to this song. Now technically, the Violent Femmes aren?t exactly "pure punk" ? more like a punk/folk-music fusion with lots of good, old-fashioned angst? but I considered them to be "punk" when I was in Junior High and High School. Oh well, for what it?s worth, here it is...] RICH DEATH EATER?S SON to the tune of _Blister in the Sun_ by the Violent Femmes Midi version: http://www.prebble.com/blister.htm Downloadable mp3 version: http://80music.about.com/library/mp3/bl_mp3-070301.htm Dedicated to Nicole ? I hope you?re feeling better and Daniel Radcliffe ? thanks for the idea, dude! THE SCENE: (COS) Malfoy, with Crabbe and Goyle walking behind him, is strutting around the dungeons on his way to the Slytherin common room, acting like he owns the school. Malfoy is the lead singer (of course), Crabbe is on guitar, and Goyle is on the snare drum, which is strapped around his thick neck like he?s a drummer in a marching band. MALFOY: When I?m a walking, I strut my stuff ?Round these dungeon halls. Girls on the stairs Can?t help but stare ?Cause I say with a drawl, "Check me out, ladies! I?m a rich Death Eater?s son. Check me out, ladies! I?m one cool Slytherin." Since I was one, Dark Lord?s been gone But Dad?s still a D.E. Helps that we had Such a nice pad and Vaults with lots of money. Outta my way, I?m a rich Death Eater?s son Outta my way Pure-bloods this school will run! (Musical interlude...Malfoy smirks at all of the Slytherin girls, making each of them swoon. Crabbe and Goyle get a chance to show off their musical "talent" -- the term "talent" being used loosely here -- on their respective instruments.) (Quietly singing to just Crabbe and Goyle) Those stupid twins Say with big grins Potter?s Slytherin?s heir. That?s so untrue! Wish that I knew Who is really the heir. (A little quieter) Dad said to stay out of his way, Keep my bloody mouth shut. But if I knew him, Then I could help him Get rid of wizard mutts. (Whispering) School?s full of danger; Hope that it?s Granger Next in line to get stoned. Tut! What a shame To see her name Etched upon a tombstone! (They arrive at the common room door. Not wanting to wait behind the crowd of Slytherins slowly shuffling in, Malfoy shouts loudly...) Outta my way, I?m a rich Death Eater?s son! Outta my way, I?m one cool Slytherin! (Everyone moves to let them through first. Crabbe and Goyle continue to play while Malfoy struts his stuff for all he's worth all the way up to the boys 2nd year dorm room.) ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Tut, tut --- hardly any of you remembered that my favorite color is *lilac*. I say so in Year with the Yeti." --Gilderoy Lockhart, COS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sun Oct 27 11:24:34 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 06:24:34 EST Subject: Was Lupin there when Lilly died?/Names Message-ID: <181.10e442fa.2aed26f2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45834 Barb: > ------------------------------------------------------------- > "Remus!" Pettigrew squeaked, turning to Lupin instead, writhing imploringly > in front of him. "You don't believe this...wouldn't Sirius have told you > they'd changed the plan?" > > "Not if he thought I was the spy, Peter," said Lupin. "I assume that's why > you didn't tell me, Sirius?" he said casually over Pettigrew's head. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > While it is clear that Lupin meant that Sirius thought Lupin was the spy > back before the Potters were killed, it is unlikely that Lupin meant that > he thought Sirius was the spy at the same time, since he knew Sirius was > the Secret Keeper (this is the "change" that Peter was referring to). Eloise: Well, yes. I see your objection. But he *could* still have suspected Sirius at the time. Lupin was under the misapprehension that Sirius was the Secret Keeper. He knew of Dumbledore's concerns that there was a mole in the organisation, wondered about Sirius, but dismissed his supicions, after all, how could it be him? How could Sirius *possibly* betray his best friend? Only to be, as he thought, proved horribly wrong by events. This would explain why he didn't *voice* his suspicions at the time, whilst making it very likely that he would carry a burden of guilt for not preventing their deaths later. I think one of the tragic things about the situation before Voldemort's fall was that it was almost impossible to trust anyone. We're told what the atmosphere was like at the time. The situation was so bad that even three men who had trusted each other as completely as Sirius, Lupin and James could harbour suspicions about each other. Dumbledore suspected there was a spy in the organisation. So did Sirius. Therefore I suppose that Lupin must also have done so at the time. So who did he suspect? The thing that I find odd if it refers only to his beliefs *after* the event is the use of the word 'spy'. In the context of James' and Lily's deaths, I would have thought something like 'betrayer' or even 'murderer' (referring as well to the Muggle deaths and Pettigrew's apparent death) might have come more readily to mind, rather than 'spy' which seems to me to refer more generally to the leaking of information prior to the event. But I concede that your version is every bit as likely as mine. Barb again: >Second, I hardly think Lupin would have felt at the fringes with three friends who >went out of their way to become Animagi and accompanied him during the full >moon. If anything, he was the linch-pin of the group because of this. James and >Sirius may have been the leaders, but without Lupin, they would probably not have >thought of becoming Animagi. They were specifically looking for a way to spend the >full moon with him. He was central to the group in a way that Peter never could be. Eloise: This is all objectively true. But we experience things *subjectively* and it may not be the way that Lupin experienced it. After all, we're told that it was Sirius and James who were the inseparable ones. In the overheard conversation in the Three Broomsticks, Lupin never gets a mention. I don't find it at all hard to imagine that with the burden of his lycanthropy and the social exclusion he must have experienced before coming to Hogwarts, Lupin found it very difficult to believe he was entirely accepted by his friends. And I hate to say it, but he could almost just have been an *excuse* for the others to work on the dangerous and exciting project of becoming Animagi and of going off on their monthly adventures. Or he could have interpreted it that way, depending how secure he felt in his friendships. Catlady: >Kudos to Richard GulPlum for fighting the good fight for canonical >Hogwarts uniforms! Seconded! >Freya wrote: > << But anyway I wonder why JKR has made some of the character names >>so obvious, like Hooch, Sprout, Albus... (Albus! He didn't always >>have white hair!). Like their names would be their destiny or >>something. Aaargh! I find that annoying. >> > >Is Hooch an obvious name? Please explain it to me. > >"Albus" could be named not from his white hair but from his purity, >or after Albion (an old named for the island of Britain, based on >the sight of the "white cliffs of Dover".) Eloise: Well, I think the obvious, meaningful names (and I agree that though interpretations of Hooch have been offered, they're not *obvious*) are an aspect of JKR's genre soup and should be taken sometimes in satirical vein, sometimes just as the exuberance of a writer who likes playing with language. I think we get into terrible trouble if we insist on trying to find complete internal coherence in the Potterverse. As for 'Albus', yes, I have wondered if it refers to Albion, the most ancient name of Britain, although the origin may go back further than the Roman identification of the White Cliffs. It may actually be an indigenous Celtic name and the similarity with Latin 'albus' merely a nice coincidence. But if we are to take all the names quite seriously, I rather like Catlady's suggestion of names 'just happening' although I'm not sure *how* that would happen! It rather reminds me of the names site that someone posted recently on this list, which turned out to be one that indicated personality based on the numerological values of given names. Presumably magical naming could work the same way. Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mrflynn6 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 27 12:28:35 2002 From: mrflynn6 at yahoo.com (mrflynn6) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 12:28:35 -0000 Subject: More on Figg's protection Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45835 Hopefully this hasn't been brought up before, if so, sorry, but in listening to the GoF CD yesterday a thought struck me about Figg. When the Weasley's and company were setting up the tents at the World Cup, Harry remarked that the boy's tent was decorated in the same style as Figg's house and it smelled of cats. Arthur said he got the tent from Perkins at the office. Could that be Perkins Figg? If Arabella is part of Harry's protection, perhaps that protection spilled over to the tent. Did Dumbledore suspect something might happen at the World Cup and wanted to make sure Harry has a little extra protection? Gretchen From psychomaverick at hotmail.com Sun Oct 27 06:44:39 2002 From: psychomaverick at hotmail.com (psychodudeneo) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 06:44:39 -0000 Subject: Musings on FB&WTFT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45836 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > > > My personal favorite for the class is the Mooncalf. The image > of that shy creature dancing the night away under the full moon > cracks me up. It is like the friendly, twinkle-toed cousin of a > werewolf. > > > > Surely the Mooncalf is nothing else than Lewis Carroll's Mock > Turtle, which danced the Lobster Quadrille? > > http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/People/rgs/alice-table.html > > Pippin I don't think so. The mooncalf doesn't seem to have a turtle shell. I assumed the creature was a reference to an old song: "Buffalo Girls, wontcha come out tonight? Come out tonight? Come out tonight? Buffalo Girls, wontcha come out tonight? And dance by the light of the moon!" "psychodudeneo" From Audra1976 at aol.com Sun Oct 27 08:50:56 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 03:50:56 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Musings on FB&WTFT Message-ID: <8f.242dec7d.2aed02f0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45837 In a message dated 27/10/2002, msbonsai at mninter.net (Julie) writes: > Sirius said when he transformed, that he had animal emotions rather > than human emotions so the dementors were confused. > Sirius also said he found a way to communicate with Crookshanks, but > never details what it is. > Also the 4 ran around town in animal form, surely they communicated > together somehow. So I'm wondering what they're doing? Sign > language? Me: First, I assume when an Animagi transforms, they turn physically into that animal completely. If this is so then they would not be able to talk, as these animals physically don't have the capability to produce the sounds of human speech. Second, I don't think that Animagi in their transformed state are even capable of thinking in human language. When Sirius transformed into a dog, the Dementors could sense that his thoughts and feelings were less complex. This is because dogs think only in sensory impressions. They do not think abstractly like humans do. If Sirius could still think like a human in his transformed state, the Dementors would not have sensed any difference. Therefore it is evident that the dog-Sirius did not think in terms of spoken language, but in sensory impressions like any ordinary dog. Another clue is also in the same chapter of PoA. When Peter is returned to human form, Lupin speaks to him as if he would not have understood their conversation while he was a rat: "We've been having a little chat, Peter, about what happened the night that James and Lily died. You might have missed the finer points while you were squeaking around down there on the bed." (ch. 19, p. 307). Of course MWP&P communicated together somehow--the way animals communicate: non-verbally, by way of sounds, scents, touch, and body language. This was probably not too complicated. As good friends already, they must have been accustomed to communicating with each other non-verbally as humans, knowing what one another thought and felt. Crookshanks is at least part Kneazle. I think it's true that a lot of animals are capable of detecting "bad" people, but kneazles are even more attuned to this. Perhaps they have some degree of psychic ability, and it was in a partly physical and partly telekinetic way that Sirius communicated with Crookshanks. --Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sun Oct 27 16:23:40 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 08:23:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] More on Figg's protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021027162340.66806.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45838 Gretchen wrote: Hopefully this hasn't been brought up before, if so, sorry, but in listening to the GoF CD yesterday a thought struck me about Figg. When the Weasley's and company were setting up the tents at the World Cup, Harry remarked that the boy's tent was decorated in the same style as Figg's house and it smelled of cats. Arthur said he got the tent from Perkins at the office. Could that be Perkins Figg? Me: While the tent has been brought up many times as a possible indicator of Mrs. Figg indeed being Arabella Figg, and a witch, I don't believe anyone has ever suggested that there is a character named "Perkins Figg." It is highly unlikely that "Perkins" is Arthur Weasley's co-worker's first name. It is far more likely to be his last name. Despite his loan of the tent, I don't get the impression that Arthur and "Perkins" are dreadfully close, else he'd be calling him by his first name. (Remember Crouch calling Percy "Weatherby?") Gretchen: If Arabella is part of Harry's protection, perhaps that protection spilled over to the tent. Did Dumbledore suspect something might happen at the World Cup and wanted to make sure Harry has a little extra protection? Me: As I said, I doubt that Perkins is a Figg. I doubt he would know Arabella Figg at all. I believe it is far more likely that the tent came with some pre-fabricated sort of decor which is available to witches and wizards in an off-the-shelf manner (perhaps in a catalogue). The similarity to Mrs.Figg's house could be because she needed to hurriedly decorate her Surrey home when Dumbledore installed her there (assuming that's what happened) and she took the easy route of buying an entire ready-made house interior, model #345, with the possible title, "Elderly Widow With Too Many Antimacassars And Cats." If Perkins bought a tent with the same decor model number (maybe it reminds him of his grandmother's house?), that could explain the similarity. I think we're meant to eventually understand that they both have a magical source, not to think that there's any connection between Perkins and Mrs. Figg. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From barbara at dobes.at Sun Oct 27 12:59:55 2002 From: barbara at dobes.at (Barbara Dobes) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 13:59:55 +0100 Subject: Prof Trelawney's predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45839 Hi everyone! Jade wrote: But somehow I think the reason for LV wanting to kill Harry has to go a lot deeper than a prediction from someone who's only made false ones in the past. Me: Prof. Trelawney sometimes reminds me of Kassandra. She constantly predicted the fall of Troy and other catastrophes but nobody believes her. In the end, all her prophecies come true. What if there are some similarities between Prof Trelawney and Kassandra. Nobody believes her prophies but maybe there is more behind them than we might think? What do you think? Just wondering and thinking a bit... Barbara [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 27 17:18:14 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 17:18:14 -0000 Subject: Animagi In-Reply-To: <8f.242dec7d.2aed02f0@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45840 I originally said: >>While the animagus wizard still has the mental >>capacity of their human form, they are limited to the physical >>capacities of the creature. (i.e. they can't talk as their animal >>form, but are capable of reading a newspaper.) > Julie wrote to counter: >Sirius said when he transformed, that he had animal emotions rather >than human emotions so the dementors were confused. >Sirius also said he found a way to communicate with Crookshanks, but >never details what it is. >Also the 4 ran around town in animal form, surely they communicated >together somehow. So I'm wondering what they're doing? Sign >language? I would think they'd still be able to talk. Let me see if I can explain what I meant before. The animagus wizards still have the mental capacities of their human form. They still are able to discern situations and react in the manors they would if they were human, but since they physically are an animal, they are limited in their abilities to fully act human. Hmmm, still not convinced? Ok, I'll go get my books. In PS/SS (Ch1), we are introduced to cat animagus McGonagall first. In cat form she was able to: Read- "a cat reading a map" & "reading the sign that said Privet Dr." Have McGonagall qualities- "gave him [Vernon] a stern look" Keep to her mission- she was "sitting on his [Vernon's] garden wall" all day "staring down Privet Drive as though it were waiting for something" Could react to Dumbledore's appearance on the drive- "tail twitched and its eyes narrowed." Even though she looked and reacted like a cat, she had her wits to her and was able to continue her mission. Though because she is just a cat, she can only stare at Vernon to show her annoyance and twitch her tail to show her excitement with Dumbledore finally coming to Privet Drive. Since physically she was restricted, Vernon had no reason really to suspect she was anything else but a cat. She had no "human" qualities, like speech, to give her away to a muggle. Now, In PoA (Ch 6), we see McGonagall in cat form during class. She transfigured to a cat and back. "Really, what has got into you all today?" said Professor McGonagall, turning back into herself with a faint pop..." As a cat, she could still observe the classroom and see that the class was distracted, but only when she turned back into human form could she address the class in English. Now then, Scabbers. Most of the time, we did not suspect the little rat because he acted completely rat-like. At no time did he talk, walk on two legs, do a crossword puzzle, or even react period (well except to bite Goyle's finger but that was still rat-like). Yet, as Black said, "I realized he was at Hogwarts...perfectly positioned to act... PoA, (Ch 19)" I take this to mean that Peter still has the capacities to access the situations around him and plan accordingly. As Scabbers, he could lie low, wait while still being completely human, and keep watch. Since he is physically a rat, his reactions are shown in rat-like ways. He starts loosing hair and weight once Black escapes. When Black and Lupin go to get Scabbers from Ron in Shrieking Shack, "Scabbers began to squeak without stopping, twisting and turning, his tiny eyes bulging in his head. PoA, (Ch 19)." Now if Peter was human at that moment, I am sure we would of seen the twisting and turning become struggling and kicking and the squeaking becoming either screaming or actual words. Since Peter could only react by the limitations of his rat form, his protest was only manifested as twisting and squeaking. But you did ask also, how did the Marauder's communicate between themselves. I tend to agree with what Audra wrote: >Of course MWP&P communicated together somehow--the way animals >communicate: non-verbally, by way of sounds, scents, touch, and body >language. This was probably not too complicated. As good friends >already, they must have been accustomed to communicating with each >other non-verbally as humans, knowing what one another thought and >felt. Since they were fifth years and had been friends for a while, I tend to believe that they did not need to talk that much anyway. Since animagi still can pull off the non-verbal communication they have when they are human (McGonagall's "stern stare" at Vernon), then I am prone to believe that the Marauders could understand each other just as easily. They may not all speak the same animal language, but hey, these are guys. They often speak in grunts. And I mean no ill will to the guys of this site, but come on; most your sex does tend to enjoy the simplicity of basic communication. As to why it took a while for Black to communicate with Crookshanks, Crookshanks *is* just a cat even if he is part-kneazle. Since he only thinks and speaks like a cat, Black had to figure out how to communicate with him. The passage reads (PoA, Ch19): "It was a while before he trusted me...Finally, I managed to communicate to him what I was after, and he's been helping me..." So, it could be read that it took a while for Black to figure out how to physically talk to Crookshanks, or the passage could mean that it took so long for Black and Crookshanks to talk because Crookshanks did not immediately trust Black. Once he did, then they could talk...sort of, in some realm of reality. As your question about Black's animal emotions, let me see. The quote reads (PoA, Ch 19): "'...so when it all became...too much...I could transform in my cell...become a dog. Dementor's can't see, you know...' He swallowed. 'They feel their way toward people by feeding off their emotions....They could tell that my feelings were less -- less human, less complex when I was a dog...'" Hmmm, tough one there. From examples before, it is obvious that the animagus can still have the emotions they would have as a human. Black in dog form even growled at Fudge in the hospital wing at the end of GoF because Fudge suggested Harry was a bit unstable. The reason Black transformed into his loveable stray shape in Azkaban was to drive away the dementors' emotional drain not release himself from self-given emotional anguish. As a dog, Black still felt the emotions and thoughts, but it is the dementors that were fooled. They could only sense that a human was not there. Maybe that gives strength to the fact that when an animagi wizard transforms, they really transform to fool everyone. That is why the ministry wants to keep close tabs. No one, not even non-humans, could see that they were actually a wizard. So to conclude this long windy path, I do believe that animagi wizards are completely still human in mind but are limited in their "human" reactions to the physical restraints of their animal form. So, then McGonagall can read a map, but not tell anyone what it says. Oh and one last thing... I wrote: >>Given that we only have what...4,5,6...six examples of an animagus >>wizard and they all are "muggle" animals, I do wonder if the animal >>kingdom available to them also extends to the magical? And GulPlum pointed out: >err... I count five (Potter, Pettigrew, Black, McGonagall and >Skeeter). Who's the sixth? Or are you counting Lupin, who's a >werewolf, not an Animagus? Me: Yeah...um...sorry about that. I was counting Lupin before. There should be a warning on the cold/flu medication bottle to not operate heavy machinery or try to count animagus wizards. Melody From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 27 17:39:35 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 17:39:35 -0000 Subject: More on Figg's protection In-Reply-To: <20021027162340.66806.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45841 Gretchen asked: > If Arabella is part of Harry's protection, perhaps that protection >spilled over to the tent. Did Dumbledore suspect something might >happen at the World Cup and wanted to make sure Harry has a little >extra protection? Barb deduced: > As I said, I doubt that Perkins is a Figg. I doubt he would know >Arabella Figg at all. I believe it is far more likely that the tent >came with some pre-fabricated sort of decor which is available to >witches and wizards in an off-the-shelf manner (perhaps in a >catalogue). So I add, liking Barb's idea of wizard decor catalogues: Also if the house/tent is what protects Harry, then he really did not spend much time in there. When the death eaters has thier little playtime, Arthur sent The Three into the woods. Since Arthur is the one that brought the tents in the first place and thus, by your theory, knew of the needed protection for Harry, then sending Harry away from the protective tent that night would of been completely foolish. The safest place for Harry would of been the cabbage tent. Besides, Harry's protections seems to be about certain people not places. Melody From daniel.brent at cwctv.net Sun Oct 27 16:27:00 2002 From: daniel.brent at cwctv.net (evenflow200214) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 16:27:00 -0000 Subject: Some Thoughts On Some Stuff eg Sirius, Wormtail, The Map and more Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45842 Reading PoA, although it seems pretty obvious on the surface that Sirius was a victim of Wormtail's deceit, there's some stuff that throws some doubt on Sirius... Firstly, why did he change? He called Wormtail a bluff, he thought that Voldemort came after him. If he thought that, why didn't he keep it? Because logically, if Voldemort suspected that Sirius was the Secret Keeper and Sirius told no-one about it, Voldemort would track Sirius down and when he couldn't get it out of him, kill him, then move on to Lupin or Peter... who would perhaps die. Was it cowardice that put his friends at risk? Or was it just simple miscalculation? And why, if he was so convinced that there was a mole in the group, as someone put it, why didn't he go to Dumbledore? Give the Secret Keeper position to him.. He knew that Dumbledore was the only wizard that Voldemort was recitent about approaching, if push came to shove, Dumbledore would take on Voldemort... So why didn't he give it to Dumbledore? Dumbledore offered to be Secret Keeper which brings me to my next point... Dumbledore was convinced there was a spy in their midst... He tried to talk the Potters OUT of letting Sirius become their keeper... Knowing Dumbledore is a trusting guy (Hagrid, Lupin, Snape) its a bit odd that's he is weary of Sirius becoming Secret Keeper... So we can say what is it about Sirius that caused them all to think that he was the traitor? And if Sirius had gone to Dumbledore, he could have kept The Potters safe... Was there another reason for going to Wormtail? As for the Marauder's Map, is it possible that they were involved in Dark Magic to make it? The map almost has their personalities inside it with the jokes it threw at Snape... With that we saw, adolescent Sirius, adolescent Peter... The last time we saw something remotely like this was Tom Riddle's diary and we all know how he turned out... Also the Map seems to pick and choose who you can see, otherwise Harry would have noticed the whole student body when he looked at it... it must have taken some power and knowledge to get it exactly right, could one if not more had been involved or at least knew some Dark Arts? Crouch (again, sorry!) Is it wise that he tries to kill Harry? We know that the whole point of Voldemort making this whole intricate, step by step plan throughout GoF is to kill Harry... he could have grabbed hold on any wizard who hated him but he wanted to kill Harry... Would Voldemort have been happy for Crouch to do it? Also, McGonagall... At the start of Book 1, McGonagall asks Dumbledore "how he knew it was her" when she changes back from a cat... Dumbledore was the Transfiguration teacher at Hogwarts... Is that worth looking into? --evenflow From smiller_92407 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 27 17:16:48 2002 From: smiller_92407 at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 17:16:48 -0000 Subject: Musings on FB&WTFT In-Reply-To: <8f.242dec7d.2aed02f0@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45843 > Julie) writes: Sirius said when he transformed, that he had animal emotions rather than human emotions so the dementors were confused. The Audra wrote: First, I assume when an Animagi transforms, they turn physically into that animal completely. If this is so then they would not be able to talk, as these animals physically don't have the capability to produce the sounds of human speech. Me: I agree. Animals can't talk. And it's a good thing, too, could you imagine what Rita would have said in Hermione's jar? Audra: If Sirius could still think like a human in his transformed state, the Dementors would not have sensed any difference. Therefore it is evident that the dog-Sirius did not think in terms of spoken language, but in sensory impressions like any ordinary dog. Me: I have a problem with this. In the very beginning of canon, we are introduced to a cat reading a map. If that's not abstract thinking, I don't know what is. Prof. McGonagall maintains her humanity while transformed. Rita also keeps her humanity, otherwise, how could she know where to position herself to get the best scoop? She also was apparently able to negotiate with Hermione on what she will need to do to get out of her jar. I think Sirius still had his own thinking and spoken language, but that it was somehow manifested differently enough to fool the Dementors. Audra: Another clue is also in the same chapter of PoA. When Peter is returned to human form, Lupin speaks to him as if he would not have understood their conversation while he was a rat: "We've been having a little chat, Peter, about what happened the night that James and Lily died. You might have missed the finer points while you were squeaking around down there on the bed." (ch. 19, p. 307). Me: I don't buy this one. I think Peter was perfectly capable of understanding, but Lupin wanted to be sure that the point was made in case Peter was too busy squeaking and not paying attention, and also, Lupin was taking the time for a subtle ratty insult. I conclude that animagi maintain their humanity, but just in a different wrapper. ~~ Constance Vigilance From Audra1976 at aol.com Sun Oct 27 18:01:41 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 13:01:41 EST Subject: [FILK] I Love Lucius Message-ID: <119.19d3b1b2.2aed8405@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45844 I'm glad there is an audience for filk here. My friend and I were reading something about Lucius and Narcissa on another list and she came up with this song off the top off her head. I tweaked it a little bit. --Audra I LOVE LUCIUS To the tune of the "I Love Lucy" theme MIDI (should you need it): http://209.197.86.65/20020902/t/tv/I_Love_Lucy.mid I love Lucius and he loves me. We're a pureblooded family, And you won't hear us complain When Voldemort rises up again. Lucius' passion you can't assuage. I'm his missus and he's my mage. We're as evil as evil can be! Oh, I love Lucius, Yes I love Lucius, And Lucius loves me! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shufan90 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 27 18:12:00 2002 From: shufan90 at yahoo.com (shufan) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 10:12:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts on Figg Message-ID: <20021027181200.74357.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45845 I was having some thoughts as to why Mrs. Figg would spend all of those years on Privet Drive. There has been some speculation that Mrs. Figg is the old woman she portays, but in PoA there is section that describes the Salem Witch trials and how one witch cast a spell to make herself appear different. Why would JKR go to trouble of describing something like that if we have not seen anyone use it in the books yet? So, in my connection this is what Figg has been doing and her connection to Harry is not through Dumbledore but Lilly. We have been promised to know more about Lilly in the future and we got information on James from his friends so why not introduce the friends of Lilly? Also, if Figg is contemporary of Lilly then she can possibly give more information on the Sirus/Snape hatred. Just some thoughts. Jennifer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 27 19:17:07 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 19:17:07 -0000 Subject: Harry is dull Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45846 Devleoping from a thread in OT Chatter about other HP sites--- Kristjan Arnason wrote: > > Anyway, I was reading the Nocturne Alley site when I > realized something. And Harry is deadly dull. > > And so is Harry in the books. What interests does he > have? What personality quirks does he displace? > Apart from surviving an LV AK what makes him > interesting? Okay, he's a seeker and all that, and he > defeated LV at the end of the first book because of > something in his skin, and defeated him again in the > second book because a pheonix showed up out of > nowhere, and saved the day in the third book after > Dumbledore strongly hinted that he should use > Hermione's Time Turner, and then survived LV again in > the fourth book due to some fluke involving the origin > of their wands, but so what? > > Everything happens to Harry, but what does he really > do? What initiative has he ever taken? > > I'm going to go way out on a limb here and suggest > that Moaning Myrtle and Mrs. Norris have displayed > more PERSONALITY than Harry Potter, The Boy Who Lived > To Bore Draco To Death, has. Maybe it's just because > he's essentially the narrator, I don't know. > > Take care, > > Kris Heroes always are a bit dull, though, aren't they? :-) I think *part* of it is, not quite the 'Harry as narrator' problem, but the fact that Harry sees *himself* as dull. Ordinary. The only thing he's good at is Quidditch. Get real, Harry! You can drive off 100 Dementors with your Patronus; a spell which is supposed to be too difficult for someone your age to manage at all, and you're only good at Quidditch!? JKR has said in several interviews that Harry came into her head as a boy who doesn't know he's a wizard. I think we keep reading this and saying 'ah, yes that's the first half of Book One'. But I think it may be Harry's theme throughout. He's a boy who doesn't understand who or what he is. Plus, he's been emotionally abused from age 18 months to age 11. Even after 11 he knows his haven is only for 10 months of the year, and not secure even then. I've seen people on the main list say that Harry doesn't act like an abused child, and I think that's because they associate 'abused child' with 'acting out' distress. There are several personality types for abused kids, and Harry is actually pretty close to the 'adjuster' - the kid who rolls with the flow, who survives by detaching emotionally, by becoming nondescript, by not thinking about what's happening to them - just dealing with it as best they can. Harry's learnt to not ask questions (it gets you screamed at), to not try and be the best at anything (it gets you a whack on the shins from Aunt Marge), to slide into the 'perfectly ok marks but not the best in the class' section (means the teachers don't pay extra attention to you - which might get unpleasant reactions from Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon). He's also learnt that he's not a leader (Dudley is the leader - Harry is the kid who gets bullied). And since that's how he sees himself, and he's the pov character, that's what we see. Boring. Ordinary. Follows his friends suggestions, rarely makes his own. And survives. Boy, does he survive. That is Harry's real talent - whatever you throw at him, however you abuse him, Harry will survive it. I actually think Harry didn't *need* Priori Incantantum in the Graveyard - he would have found something else. And Harry's character is developing throughout the books - best seen in the scenes with the Dursley's. In Book One he sees no way out, in Book Two he tries to fight back, gets squashed and has to be rescued by Fred and George, by Book Three he's telling the Dursley's he's running away (and does it) by Book Four he's learnt how to make the Dursley's do what he wants, and not just adjust to what they want to do to him. He's not following the diet, and he gets to go to the Quidditch World Cup. So, in answer to the 'what makes Harry interesting' - I think he's actually *learning* how to be interesting through the books. How to be the star. How to be the leader. How to ask questions [Do you notice that Dumbledore never tells Harry anything *until he asks a question* ?]. Pip [who thought of replying to this on OT chatter, and then noticed the entire post was about HP, which would make it off-topic for the off- topic board...] From editor at texas.net Sun Oct 27 19:35:59 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 13:35:59 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] More Animagus References: Message-ID: <00fa01c27df0$151adbe0$b805a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 45847 bboy said: > I tried to find the Animagus thread or post where someone speculated > that you don't get to choose your animagus animal. While I tracked > several threads, couldn't find it. I think that is a commonly held > belief, at least sufficient that I don't need the original post > stating it. It is based on a comment by Jo Rowling in an interview, which suggests strongly that personal choice does not come into play. I bopped over to the Lexicon and found the interview (how I *love* the Lexicon Master!): Q: If you were Animagus, what kind of animal would you be? A: I'd like to be an otter - that's my favourite animal. It would be depressing if I turned out to be a slug or something. (interview at http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm) The interpretation of this, and the consensus of the list, has thus been that you *don't* get to pick. When someone has mastered the spell, it interacts with the caster in such a way to transform him/her into an appropriate animal form for who they are, on a personality/self level. > First, let's look at the Mauraders (Padfoot, Prongs, & Wormtail; big > dog, stag deer, & rat). If the transfomation to an animagus, a true > animagus, was somewhat random, that is, you can't pick it, it's > determined by your personallity, then how did the Mauraders know that > they would transform into animals that were useful? They didn't. They had no idea. This is one reason that Lupin was so astounded and touched that they made such an effort--put years into something that was not necessarily going to work, simply out of friendship. > If they had all turned into rats, or say a rat, a squirrel, and a > rabbit, (or pick three small furry animals of your own) they would > have undergone a very dangerous and illegal tranformation only to find > the they had become animals that weren't capable of handling a > werewolf. Being able to control Lupin as well as keep him company > while he was a werewolf was the whole point of doing it. And that would have been a true bummer, I'd bet (although, given their personalities, I think they'd have found redeeming aspects of whatever their forms were). But as I said before, I believe they undertook the task knowing darn well that (a) it was dangerous and illegal; (b) they might well not succeed (and Pettigrew almost didn't); and (c) if they did succeed, they had no control over what their form would be, and it all still might have been for naught. Hence Lupin's disbelieving gratitude, still showing strongly after everything, there in the Shrieking Shack. > I will agree that the choice you make is a reflection of your > personality. In that sense, it is determine by who you are. But, if I > was going to become an animagi, I would probably have some purpose in > doing so. The Ministry probably tracks this, among other reason, to > make sure people don't have some evil intent behind their desire. So, > I certainly wouldn't go through all that risk and trouble unless I > knew in advance what it was going to get me. Which is what I'm trying to say, kind of; the Marauders had no idea and did it anyway. > The point I'm making is that becoming an animagi is kind of pointless > unless you have some control over what you become. I just can't see > people going through all that to become a random and possibly useless > animal. We have no idea of the repercussions of being able to cast the spell. We have no idea what other spells might build on the knowledge. And there are plenty of other types of people in the world (such as Hermione) who simply like to *know* stuff, who would cheerfully undertake the effort to see if they could, or to see what it felt like, or to see what they were. I'd do it. ~Amanda From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Oct 27 19:36:11 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 13:36:11 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Prof Trelawney's predictions/ Harry is dull (not!) References: Message-ID: <010e01c27df0$1b431780$f49fcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45848 Barbara writes: > Prof. Trelawney sometimes reminds me of Kassandra. She constantly predicted > the fall of Troy and other catastrophes but nobody believes her. In the end, > all her prophecies come true. > What if there are some similarities between Prof Trelawney and Kassandra. > Nobody believes her prophies but maybe there is more behind them than we > might think? What do you think? Well, let's think for a minute here. Trelawney constantly predicts Harry's death, pretty much every chance she gets. Aside from the first time, he and everyone else takes it with a yawn and says basically yeah, whatever. But let's take a look at Harry's first four years: Year 1: Nearly killed by Voldemort/Quirrell, basically from the sheer effort taken to hang onto him and nearly killing himself in the process. Unconscious for three days. Year 2: Could've easily been killed by Dobby's bludger. Escapes with only a broken/deboned arm. Nearly killed by the Basilisk, and would've been if not for Fawkes. Riddle then would've probably killed him if Harry hadn't instintively destroyed the diary. Year 3: Here's where Trelawney's predictions begin. Harry could've been killed falling from the broom if not for Dumbledore's quick actions. Then with all the chaos between the Shrieking Shack and the dementors he barely got away again. Year 4: Technically Harry could've been killed by the dragon in the first task. In the graveyard, obviously, he was very nearly killed by Voldemort. And once he returned to Hogwarts, was seconds away from being killed by Moody/Crouch when Dumbledore, Snape, and McGonagall turned up. So that's at least nine very close calls, if I haven't forgotten anything. So far he's even escaped without a serious injury. Well, the basilisk thing was pretty serious, but nothing Fawkes can't handle. Just using common sense would tell you it's bound to catch up with him sooner or later. So whether Trelawney is actually fortelling the future or going with the odds, I don't know. A thought struck me the other day, laugh if you like. We've been convinently introduced to one teacher who is a ghost. He doesn't have a lot to do in the scope of things, but he's there nonetheless. Why? Just because? Or is that a hint? JKR has said someone in Harry's year would become a teacher at Hogwarts. For real? Or as a ghost? There's an idea in there I don't like, but I'll wait until OoP when we find out what makes a person become a ghost or not before I decide. Pip writes: > I think *part* of it is, not quite the 'Harry as narrator' problem, > but the fact that Harry sees *himself* as dull. Ordinary. The only > thing he's good at is Quidditch. > > Get real, Harry! You can drive off 100 Dementors with your Patronus; > a spell which is supposed to be too difficult for someone your age > to manage at all, and you're only good at Quidditch!? Precisely! If Harry were dull, I don't think the books would be quite as interesting, now would they? Harry thinks he's dull, yes. Which makes him much more interesting. Draco, to me, is as dull as they come. He's extremely predictable, you know what he's going to say before he opens his mouth, etc. Of course, there's probably a lot more behind that which we don't know yet. Maybe. But that's another topic, back to Harry. He's good and kind and generous. Are those dull qualities? Hardly. He's succeeded at everything he's truly tried. Any charm, spell, sport. Name one time he's failed at something he really tried to do. I can't think of one. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sun Oct 27 20:10:30 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 20:10:30 -0000 Subject: Harry is dull In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45849 Pip wrote: > I think *part* of it is, not quite the 'Harry as narrator' problem, > but the fact that Harry sees *himself* as dull. Ordinary. The only > thing he's good at is Quidditch. Yes, which is one of the most interesting things about him. My eyes about popped out when I got to that line. However, I don't agree that *we* see him as dull. I don't see him that way at all; that's why my eyes popped out when he thought of himself as not good at anything. I think he's a really nifty kid, even aside from the scar and the bizarre history with You-Know-Who. He's brave, he's kind, he gives a damn about people (am I just horribly cynical about 14-year-old boys, or does it stand out that Harry's reaction to splinching is not "Ewwwwww!" or "Coooool!" such as I expect from this population, but "Are they all right?"). He can fight off Imperius. > There are several personality types for abused kids, and Harry is > actually pretty close to the 'adjuster' - the kid who rolls with the > flow, who survives by detaching emotionally, by becoming > nondescript, by not thinking about what's happening to them - just > dealing with it as best they can. > > Harry's learnt to not ask questions (it gets you screamed at) But he does ask them, doesn't he? He's even quite snarky. Aunt Petunia doesn't want him to ask about his uniform, but he comments anyway: "Oh. I didn't realize it had to be so wet." Dudley beats him up at every opportunity, but he insults him anyway (the toilet remark). One of his professors hates him from the git-go but instead of being dutifully quiet, he says "Why don't you ask Hermione?" We're on notice from the start that the backbone has not been beaten out of Harry Potter. (Please forgive misquotes, this is from memory.) > And since that's how he sees himself, and he's the pov character, > that's what we see. Boring. Ordinary. Follows his friends > suggestions, rarely makes his own. Rarely? You think? Off the top of my head: -Harry's the one who insists on going after the Stone. He maps out the plan most of the way as well: how to get past Fluffy, who'll drop through the trapdoor first (him), what to do when they have enough potion to get only one of them through to the final chamber. -Harry's the one who sorts through almost the entire problem in CoS-- in fact, I think it's a bit of a flaw that Ron is so much the "great idea, boss!" figure there. It's his idea to follow the spiders, he figured out the Myrtle connection, and he doesn't hesitate to take leadership in going into the Chamber. He figures out how to "kill" Riddle. He has another spur-of-the-moment brilliant idea about how to release Dobby and he DOES it, right then and there against this really scary guy. Do I need to do books 3 and 4 too? Or have I made my point? Ron and Hermione contribute plenty, and if you want to argue that Harry isn't THE leader you can give it a go (though I'll argue back), but that Harry is A leader is undoubtable. He may not describe himself as one, but he acts as one, and that's how he comes across, to this humble reader at least. > And Harry's character is developing throughout the books - best seen > in the scenes with the Dursley's. In Book One he sees no way out, in > Book Two he tries to fight back, gets squashed and has to be rescued > by Fred and George, by Book Three he's telling the Dursley's he's > running away (and does it) by Book Four he's learnt how to make the > Dursley's do what he wants, and not just adjust to what they want to > do to him. He's not following the diet, and he gets to go to the > Quidditch World Cup. Again, I think this progression is in canon, but this account is a bit exaggerated. Amy Z _________________________ Paul Wellstone, 1944-2002 _________________________ From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 27 20:28:10 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 20:28:10 -0000 Subject: Harry is dull (not!) In-Reply-To: <010e01c27df0$1b431780$f49fcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45850 Richelle challenged: >>>He's succeeded at everything he's truly tried. Any charm, spell, sport. Name one time he's failed at something he really tried to do. I can't think of one.<<< Um, well, when Harry was frantically looking in the library for some way to survive underwater for an hour, he failed in finding anything. Even with Hermione's and Ron's help. And I would say he was really trying. But having said that, Harry does manage to pull all his resources together even if he does not know they are working for him. It seems to me that it is the behind the scene rigging that keeps Potter afloat more often than not. Melody From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Oct 27 20:54:56 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 14:54:56 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry is dull (not!)/ Trelawney's predictions References: Message-ID: <003c01c27dfb$1c0d6b60$4b9fcdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45851 > Richelle challenged: > >>>He's succeeded at everything he's truly tried. Any charm, spell, > sport. Name one time he's failed at something he really tried to do. > I can't think of one.<<< Melody responded: > Um, well, when Harry was frantically looking in the library for some > way to survive underwater for an hour, he failed in finding anything. > Even with Hermione's and Ron's help. And I would say he was really > trying. He didn't drown, though, did he? By the time he was in the water, he had his answer. He often never gets his breakthrough until it's nearly life or death. I firmly believe if Dobby hadn't been around to overhear Moody, Harry and co. would've come up with something. > But having said that, Harry does manage to pull all his resources > together even if he does not know they are working for him. It seems > to me that it is the behind the scene rigging that keeps Potter afloat > more often than not. Yes, but that's half the battle, isn't it? Being able to figure something out is a lot handier than memorizing spells one by one. Harry'll find a way, and he's not afraid to ask for help. Which is a great quality. (Yes, I know, he's hesitant to ask adults, other than Sirius, but that's a "kid" thing.) One more thing, when I was listing Harry's near death experiences I missed a couple. There was, of course, the bouncing AK when he was a baby. And I also missed the jinxed broomstick in SS/PS. Richelle From loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com Sun Oct 27 20:03:57 2002 From: loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com (Loony Loopy) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 12:03:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was Lupin there when Lily died? In-Reply-To: <181.10e442fa.2aed26f2@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021027200357.2761.qmail@web13113.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45852 Eloise wrote: > . . . we're told that it was Sirius and > James who were the inseparable ones. > In the overheard conversation in the > Three Broomsticks, Lupin never gets a > mention. Also Eloise: > And I hate to say it, but > [Lupin] could almost just have been > an *excuse* for the others to work on the > dangerous and exciting project of > becoming Animagi and of going off on their > monthly adventures. Or he could have > interpreted it that way, depending how > secure he felt in his friendships. Lupin never gets a mention in the conversation for several reasons. One, the topic of conversation was Sirius Black, his escape from Azkaban, and what he did to land in Azkaban in the first place. Second, professional courtesy: the adults were in a public place with students milling around. Furthermore, I believe that Lupin tried hard to avoid notice while he was a student at Hogwarts because of his secret. For this, and maybe out of natural modesty, he didn't become a ringleader or attention-getter like James and Sirius. So it stands to reason that Lupin would not be mentioned some 15 years after James's & Lily's deaths. I'll agree that many teenage students, particularly mischievous ones, would find the prospects of becoming Animagi tempting. They don't need an excuse like Lupin to try to become Animagi. However, the transformation can be dangerous and it took the two cleverest students, both exceptionally bright, three years to do it. For these reasons, I believe that WPP (of MWPP) had a strong reason (i.e., Lupin) to become Animagi; and that Lupin was not a periphery figure. Loony Loopy __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From Audra1976 at aol.com Sun Oct 27 20:04:23 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 15:04:23 EST Subject: Animagi and Musings on FB&WTFT Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45853 In a message dated 27/10/2002 12:19:10, Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) writes: As a dog, Black still felt the emotions > and thoughts, but it is the > dementors that were fooled. They could only sense that a human was not > there. > Maybe that gives strength to the fact that when an animagi wizard > transforms, they really transform to fool everyone. Me: Not everyone. Crookshanks could tell that both Peter and Sirius were not animals. I would think that kneazles' and Dementors' "sixth sense" would operate on the same wavelength. They both seem to be able to pick up human emotions. However, I think I have an explanation now as to why the Dementors did not recognize dog-Sirius as human. In a message dated 27/10/2002, smiller_92407 at yahoo.com (Constance) writes: > In the very beginning of canon, we are > introduced to a cat reading a map. If that's not abstract thinking, I > don't know what is. Prof. McGonagall maintains her humanity while > Me: That's right. Cats' brains do not possess language centers that could interpret the words on the map. Therefore, while transformed, an Animagi's human consciousness can still be accessed when necessary, which leads to my explanation: The human consciousness is buried so deep in the animal consciousness that it is only detectable when it is being accessed. When Sirius transformed into a dog in Azkaban he left his human consciousness buried. He did not access it. This served both to escape his own emotions and to go undetected by the Dementors. When Sirius met Crookshanks, he was accessing his human consciousness to process spoken language and read, and Crookshanks picked up on it. Peter must have also been accessing his human consciousness to process the information about Sirius, and Crookshanks picked up on that as well as his ill intentions. How does that grab ya? --Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mary-yahoo at puzzling.org Sun Oct 27 20:34:56 2002 From: mary-yahoo at puzzling.org (Mary) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 07:34:56 +1100 Subject: More on the Map (Re: [HPforGrownups] Some Thoughts On Some Stuff eg Sirius, Wormtail, The Map and more) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021027203456.GA812@titus.spanky> No: HPFGUIDX 45854 On Sun, Oct 27, 2002, evenflow200214 wrote: > As for the Marauder's Map, is it possible that they were involved in > Dark Magic to make it? The map almost has their personalities inside > it with the jokes it threw at Snape... With that we saw, adolescent > Sirius, adolescent Peter... The last time we saw something remotely > like this was Tom Riddle's diary and we all know how he turned out... There's actual a fairly specific passage in PoA which I've always read as trying to mislead the reader into thinking the Map is evil or dangerous. After receiving the Map, there are is a sentence in which Harry recalls Mr Weasley's advice to be careful of anything that has a mind of its own - and Harry specifically draws a parallel with Riddle's diary. The description of his passage towards the witch statue that guards the path to Hogsmeade is written as though Harry does not have a choice in his actions - as though he is being controlled by the map. I've always viewed these sentences as deliberately misleading - trying to make the reader mistrust the Map when the Map will actually turn out to be a product of friendly wizards (although the Map is morally neutral, anyone can use it for good or evil as they choose, the twins, Harry, Lupin, Snape and Crouch!Moody all make their own use of it). It would be possible for these sentences to be read literally though - predicting forward a few books perhaps, rather than what I suspected on the first read, which was that they predicted that the Map was as dangerous as the diary, and that this would be revealed in PoA. -Mary From msbonsai at mninter.net Sun Oct 27 20:49:00 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 20:49:00 -0000 Subject: Some Thoughts On Some Stuff eg Sirius, Wormtail, The Map and more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45855 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "evenflow200214" wrote: Crouch (again, sorry!) Is it wise that he tries to kill Harry? We know that the whole point of Voldemort making this whole intricate, step by step plan throughout GoF is to kill Harry... he could have grabbed hold on any wizard who hated him but he wanted to kill Harry... Would Voldemort have been happy for Crouch to do it? Also, McGonagall... At the start of Book 1, McGonagall asks Dumbledore "how he knew it was her" when she changes back from a cat... Dumbledore was the Transfiguration teacher at Hogwarts... Is that worth looking into? --evenflow Me: Ok, Crouch tries to kill Harry after he comes back from seeing Voldemort in the graveyard. If I'm not mistaken, Voldemort was trying to kill Harry after he'd has his use of him. Crouch would have been the hero killing Harry at that point. Am I correct? Or is this not where you're talking about? I think it would be interesting to explore that angle as well. If McGonagall was teaching at Hogwarts already, surely Prof. Dumbledore knew it was her. After all, there are so extremely few animagus in that century (didn't the book PoA say 7?) that if Dumbledore had in fact been the Transfiguration teacher, I would think it would be very much up his alley to know that McGonagall is one of them. It registers all their markings at the MoM. If Dumbledore is an animagus, I would think he's unregistered, because I would have thought Hermione would have mentioned it by now. She did look all the registered ones up. Why did McGonagall go and find Dumbledore there at the Dursley's if she wasn't already a Professor? What business did she have tracking him down? They must have already been friends? Ok, so I think maybe this scene is one of those scenes that don't really make sense. I would say the other uncorrected one that bugs me is when TtHarry and TtHermione watch themselves coming back out of the tunnel, and suddenly Hermione is coming out before Snape, where before, the first time, she came out after Snape, with Harry, and it reads that Sirius comes out last then. So did something change? Hermione can be before and after Snape? And they didn't know? Just another little error set in there to bug us :o) Another interesting point. If the MoM is so intent on finding all the magic that the young students are doing at home, why didn't they know about "Prongs, Wormtail, and Padfoot"? And when did Rita Skeeter become an animagus? I would think that maybe animagus type of magic is untrackable? Julie From msbonsai at mninter.net Sun Oct 27 20:57:14 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 20:57:14 -0000 Subject: Musings on FB&WTFT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45856 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Miller" wrote: > The Audra wrote: > First, I assume when an Animagi transforms, they turn physically into > that animal completely. If this is so then they would not be able to > talk, as these animals physically don't have the capability to > produce the sounds of human speech. > > Susan: I agree. Animals can't talk. And it's a good thing, too, could > you imagine what Rita would have said in Hermione's jar? > ~~ Constance Vigilance Me: Ok, I am still having some problems with the theory of whether or not they can talk. So noone here seems to believe that the animagus can talk in human form. My opinion is if Scabbers wants the kids to remain thinking that he's a rat, he's going to keep his fat little mouth shut, and maintain cat formation. I don't believe it ever states that they cannot talk as humans. For instance, how in the WW did Rita talk to the Slytherins? If she was already changed into a little beetle, I would have thought that Malfoy would have thought it more fun to practice those new little curses he's learning on her rather than, oh say, walk up to the woods, pick up the beetle and expose his dirty little secrets! Was Rita waiting in the woods and turns quickly into a human to explain and then back into a bug? I think it's too risky for her to be caught. I would think Dumbledore would have found out if she were changing back and forth to ask her questions. Julie From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 27 23:15:35 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 23:15:35 -0000 Subject: Harry is not dull In-Reply-To: <003c01c27dfb$1c0d6b60$4b9fcdd1@istu757> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45857 Richelle first challenged: >He's succeeded at everything he's truly tried. Any charm, spell, >sport. Name one time he's failed at something he really tried to do. >I can't think of one. I originally responded: >>Um, well, when Harry was frantically looking in the library for some >>way to survive underwater for an hour, he failed in finding >>anything. Even with Hermione's and Ron's help. And I would say he >>was really trying. Richelle then said: >>>He didn't drown, though, did he? By the time he was in the water, >>>he had his answer. He often never gets his breakthrough until it's >>nearly life or death. I think you misunderstood me, well either that, or I did not convey what I truly meant. Yes, Harry did not drown and in fact got to his hostage first. What I was trying to say was that it was not of his own doing. No matter how hard he looked and looked, he never found the answer. It just fell in his lap. Harry's attempt *on his own* actually failed this time even though he did try hard. I continued, from before: >But having said that, Harry does manage to pull all his resources >together even if he does not know they are working for him. It seems >to me that it is the behind the scene rigging that keeps Potter >afloat more often than not. Richelle wrote: >Yes, but that's half the battle, isn't it? Being able to figure >something out is a lot handier than memorizing spells one by one. >Harry'll find a way, and he's not afraid to ask for help. Which is a great quality. (Yes,I know, he's hesitant to ask adults, other than >Sirius, but that's a "kid" thing.) Well, I think what I meant did get lost again. I was attempting, obviously poorly, to say that Harry's help often times comes from places he never knew were available to help him. Despite Harry's attempts to save the day and his skin, without those background workings, Harry would fall and fall hard. Harry's luck in situations is the background work of others like Dumbledore, Snape, or even Dobby. They are working in his favor even though Harry did not ask them. Examples...hmmm...with Dumbledore, Fawkes comes to mind along with the sorting hat. Out of nowhere came Fawkes flying high when all hope was lost in the chamber. Dobby saved the day with the gillyweed, Harry didn't ask him to help but graciously accepted it. And with Snape, well besides the first quidditch game, I am a MD supported so I think Snape saves Harry's neck a lot more than Harry realizes, but Snape wants it that way. Even though Harry does not know these resources are available to him and are cheering for him, he still has them in his bag of tricks. Harry does manage to figure *a lot* out on his own with the basic help of Hermione and Ron, but, often times, what saves him is those carrying the net below him. I hope this better clarifies. Melody From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 27 23:40:27 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 23:40:27 -0000 Subject: Harry is dull In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45858 > Pip wrote: > > > > Harry's learnt to not ask questions (it gets you screamed at) > Amy Z replied: > But he does ask them, doesn't he? He's even quite snarky. Aunt > Petunia doesn't want him to ask about his uniform, but he comments > anyway: "Oh. I didn't realize it had to be so wet." Dudley > beats him up at every opportunity, but he insults him anyway (the > toilet remark). One of his professors hates him from the git-go > but instead of being dutifully quiet, he says "Why don't you ask Hermione?" > We're on notice from the start that the backbone has not been > beaten out of Harry Potter. (Please forgive misquotes, this is > from memory.) Agreed. As I said, Harry is a great survivor - and one of his survival tactics is sarcastic comments (another is running very fast indeed). But as for asking questions: Yes, he does ask questions ? about unimportant things. Important ones ? well, Harry has to be angry, or in real danger, or the adult has to encourage him. Otherwise, no. He doesn't, for example, ask Dumbledore about Hagrid or Tom Riddle in CoS, even though he sees in the Diary Vision that Dumbledore was also there. He doesn't tell any adult about the theft of Tom Riddle's diary. He has never asked any question whatsoever about what his mother liked, what subjects she was good at, even though there are people around him who knew her (Dumbledore, Sirius, McGonagall). What he knows about his father is largely what he has been told by other people ? he only asks Dumbledore about James in response to Quirrel's comments that Snape hated his father. He asks Hagrid how his parents died in the immediate aftermath of discovering that the Dursley's have lied to him, and after a several page development where he's found out that Hagrid dislikes the Dursley's and will respond kindly to his questions. He's been friends with Hagrid ever since ? but has asked him no further questions about his parents and their friends. He never, until PoA, considered asking who the people at his parent's wedding were, and if any of them were still around. He has never asked why his parents have so much money. He only asks Lupin if he knew James Potter when Lupin reacts oddly to Harry hearing his father's death. And does he then ask Lupin anything about his father, when he's having private tuition sessions with Lupin, when Lupin has told him he was a friend of James, when Lupin gives him a Butterbeer and they sit there drinking in *silence*? Nope. Other, non-parental examples: He has never asked Neville why he was living with his Grandmother. From the beginning of CoS to the summer holidays in GoF, he doesn't ask why he can't go live with the Weasley's during the summers. Not until the very end of GoF, after he's actually told that Mrs Weasley had asked if he could live with them. > Pip Squeaks: > > And since that's how he sees himself, and he's the pov > > character,that's what we see. Boring. Ordinary. Follows his > > friends suggestions, rarely makes his own. > Amy Z responds: > Rarely? You think? > > Off the top of my head: > > -Harry's the one who insists on going after the Stone. He maps > out the plan most of the way as well: how to get past Fluffy, >who'll drop through the trapdoor first (him), what to do when they >have enough potion to get only one of them through to the final > chamber. In PS/SS he found out about Fluffy by accident, he finds out about Snape's leg by accident, and it's not until he thinks that Snape is trying to kill him that he starts actively trying to protect the Stone. Until then he's only curious about it [which is not surprising considering Hagrid's heavy hints]. > > -Harry's the one who sorts through almost the entire problem in > CoS--in fact, I think it's a bit of a flaw that Ron is so much > the "great idea, boss!" figure there. It's his idea to follow the > spiders, he figured out the Myrtle connection, and he doesn't > hesitate to take leadership in going into the Chamber. He figures > out how to "kill" Riddle. He has another spur-of-the-moment > brilliant idea about how to release Dobby and he DOES it, right > then and there against this really scary guy. In CoS, he again `goes with the flow' until he finds himself hearing the balilisk threatening to *kill*. Ron suggests the car. Nick invites him into coming to the Deathday party. > > Do I need to do books 3 and 4 too? Or have I made my point? Ron >and Hermione contribute plenty, and if you want to argue that > Harry isn't THE leader you can give it a go (though I'll argue > back), but that Harry is A leader is undoubtable. He may not > describe himself as one, but he acts as one, and that's how he > comes across, to this humble reader at least. I'm not arguing that Harry isn't a leader. Harry *is* a leader. But he doesn't *see* himself as one, and one of his biggest problems is that it generally requires something quite dramatic to make him take charge. [His biggest problem is that a very intelligent meglomaniac thinks that killing Harry Potter might be an advantageous step in his 'how to rule the world' plan]. :-) And I don't actually think Harry is boring, or ordinary, though I can quite see that you might have thought that from my original post. Because he is the pov character, and sees himself as dull and ordinary, it's quite easy IMO for the reader to think of Harry as dull and ordinary. The reader has to see beyond the pov to see that, (as I said with the 100 dementor Patronus example), Harry is doing things far, far beyond anything a dull, ordinary sort of kid could possibly do. I repeat - JKR's vision of Harry is of a boy who doesn't know he's a wizard. And I think this theme is carrying through, and in many ways, Harry's journey is to find out who he is. Which is *not* dull, ordinary Harry Potter, the boy who isn't anything special. Pip!Squeak [And if Harry would like any help with his 'asking questions' problem, I have a list of questions that would let him get started. In fact, this entire list could probably supply him with appropriate questions...] ;-) From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sun Oct 27 23:50:16 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 23:50:16 -0000 Subject: Harry is dull/Harry is not dull References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45859 Hi, all those who think harry is dull, stick out your right hands and shout 'seig heil'. All those who think harry is not dull, put both hands on your heads and shout 'comrade stalin'. But seriously folks..... We see everything from Harry's POV, therefore we get a slightly distorted picture of him. I believe that unless JKR ever writes books with Dumbledore, Voldemort or (God forbid) Snape as main characters, we'll never get a picture of what he's really like. We only see a small portion of his life, even in the huge GOF. For all we know, he could be playing chess or butterfly collecting or something when we, to coin a phase, are not looking. Just a few thoughts Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 27 23:54:44 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 23:54:44 -0000 Subject: Animagi and Kneazles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45860 Audra wrote (with a bit of snippage): >>>Crookshanks could tell that both Peter and Sirius were not animals. I would think that kneazles' and Dementors' "sixth sense" would operate on the same wavelength. >>>The human consciousness is buried so deep in the animal consciousness that it is only detectable when it is being accessed. >>>When Sirius met Crookshanks, he was accessing his human consciousness to process spoken language and read, and Crookshanks picked up on it. Peter must have also been accessing his human consciousness to process the information about Sirius, and Crookshanks picked up on that as well as his ill intentions. >>>How does that grab ya? Well Audra, it doesn't. At no time does the animagus become purely animal. They always are a human first. If they forgot who or what they are, they would never remember. They would be stuck in the simpler mind. To say that an animagi can somehow suspend the thought that they are human does not make sense to me. If the mind is the same and the physical form is different, then how can an animagus just "access" their human side? By saying that, you are implying that Peter, in rat form, can somehow suspend his human self and be a rat in mind and emotion. But Audra, from his rat mind, he would have to stay conscience enough to remember that he is human which would defeat the purpose of subverting to a rat mind in the first place. That complicated thought of reality would muddy up his rat mind since a rat can not retain that idea in the first place. In animal animagus form, the wizard has the advantages of the physical animal form and the advantage of a human mind. I am not sure of the mechanics of how the human mind shrinks to fit the animal body, but it obviously does. Maybe that is why the transfiguration is so dangerous. It involves brain changes that are very delicate. Now, you say that kneazles and dementors have a "sixth sense" for human emotions and can only see them if accessed. All right. Interesting. But a kneazle does not judge based on emotions I think. They somehow know by the presentation whether someone is trustworthy or not. And that someone does not have to be human either. All FB & WTFT say is "an uncanny ability to detect unsavoury or suspicious characters." That leaves the door open to humans and animals. When Crookshanks approved of Pig on the train home in PoA, he likes the little tyke. Whether it is because Pig is not an animagus or because Pig is a good little owl, we cannot be sure. Either way, we do know that the tiny owl is not unsavoury or suspicious. On the other hand, if Crookshanks got around Nagini, I think Crookshanks would be very unsettled. That snake is suspicious and unsavoury. Still just a snake (let's hope), but a shady character. So basically, a kneazle can judge a human or an animal and decide their loyalties. Accessing hidden emotions is not needed. Melody From msbonsai at mninter.net Sun Oct 27 23:56:00 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 23:56:00 -0000 Subject: Animagi and Musings on FB&WTFT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45861 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Audra1976 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 27/10/2002 12:19:10, Malady579 at h... (Melody) writes: > As a dog, Black still felt the emotions > and thoughts, but it is the > > dementors that were fooled. They could only sense that a human was not > > there. > Audra: > The human consciousness is buried so deep in the animal consciousness that it > is only detectable when it is being accessed. > > How does that grab ya? > > --Audra Me: Ok, interesting thought. I can see how this would lend itself to the final scene then when the 100 dementors are cornering Sirius, and he's forced to transform back to human form. He's running looking for Scabbers (although that could be considered an animal instinct) but his mind was probably running a million miles an hour thinking about Harry and everyone else. That part was bothering me. He can escape in the cell, but the dementors know it's him suddenly out there at Hogwarts? But if you're right, that would probably explain this scene. Julie From msbonsai at mninter.net Mon Oct 28 00:11:56 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 00:11:56 -0000 Subject: Sirius and the dementors Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45862 Ok. With all this debate over the animagi . . . (and I am not sure anyone will see my little post and I would love people's opinions here). Sirius says he escaped the dementors in Azkaban because his emotions were less human, so he could slip by them. So, when he's transformed into Padfoot, and chasing Scabbers out on the Hogwart's grounds . . . the 100 dementors come out and force him to change back to a human. My questions, how and why did they find out and force him? Julie From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 28 01:18:13 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 01:18:13 -0000 Subject: Sirius and the dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45863 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" (Julie) wrote: > Sirius says he escaped the dementors in Azkaban because his emotions > were less human, so he could slip by them. > > So, when he's transformed into Padfoot, and chasing Scabbers out on > the Hogwart's grounds . . . the 100 dementors come out and force him > to change back to a human. > > My questions, how and why did they find out and force him? > I don't think the Dementors actually forced him to change, at least not intentionally. I think the cumulative effect of 100 Dementors closing in on him was just so strong that even being in dog form was no longer enough protection and Sirius was just overwhelmed. He may have even temporarily forgotten that he was an Animagus (becoming one was a happy memory, right?) Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From notcarlos at hotmail.com Mon Oct 28 00:37:24 2002 From: notcarlos at hotmail.com (Jacob Lewis) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 18:37:24 -0600 Subject: Animagical Minds Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45864 Hey all, There's been a lot of discussion over whether or not Animagi keep their mental abilities while in their 'Animal Form', and I thought I'd throw in my (or rather, CS Lewis') two knutes: In his book _The_Discarded_Image_, CS Lewis discloses that, to the Medieval Mind, there were three, um, 'aspects' to a person's soul: Vegetable, Sensitive, and Rational. The first, which is responsible for all our basic growing, eating, &c. is simple enough, but here's the tough part: the Sensitive is what divides beasts from plants, and lets us, well, sense things (there are ten senses, BTW, five outside that we all know, and five 'inside', which are: memory, instinct, retention of perception (different from memory), thinking, and common sense). The Rational aspect, in short, is the ability to understand complex truths. Perhaps, and this is a big perhaps, what happens when a human becomes an animal is that he retains his sensitive soul (which, recall, has the virtues of memory, &c.) but, um... 'puts away' the rational soul (which animals do not have). Thus, the Animagus can make decisions, put things together, figure out what they're doing, make plans, etc -- but would fall flat on their face if you tried to make them understand, say, Plato, or -- for a more recent Wiz -- Paracelsus. Jacob, who doubts whether JKR consciously used this theory at all. From SylverSongblade at aol.com Mon Oct 28 01:14:02 2002 From: SylverSongblade at aol.com (SylverSongblade at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 20:14:02 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry is dull (not!)/ Instincts? Message-ID: <6.f4bb61.2aede95a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45865 This is perhaps a collection of other posts, I really don't quote all that much (sorry). Melody? once said > But having said that, Harry does manage to pull all his resources > together even if he does not know they are working for him. It seems > to me that it is the behind the scene rigging that keeps Potter afloat > more often than not. Like life, it's all a matter of what's there, using your brains to apply to the situation, and luck. Harry has all three, but one thing that I think is the most important is his instinct. I doubt when he was asking for help in CoS, he was thinking of Fawkes and the Sorting Hat. He just thought the first thing that came into his mind. He also (and he admits to not knowing why) instinctively puts that fang into the diary. He instinctively pushes those glowing balls towards Voldy's wand in GoF. He instinctively talks to snakes (yes, that's under debate), and suddenly realizes that he has to play his father to save himself in PoA. My question that I doubt will ever get answered until JKR shows us her brilliance again is whether his instincts are of himself, Voldy, or his parents? He possesses so much of Voldy's quirks from the curse which manes me wonder which parts are all him or which parts are Voldy speaking. Obviously, the Tom Riddle name came from Voldy, though. As for asking about his parents... well... Maybe he has gone through life *not* asking about them and it just carried on with him? Or perhaps subconsciously, he wants to know what HE can do, as opposed to what his predecessors have done i.e. his parents. Just some rambling :) ~ Sylvia T. Leung ~ ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v Wish?: an online manga: http://www.wish3.net ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon Oct 28 03:23:03 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:23:03 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Questions/no questions (was Re: Harry is dull) References: Message-ID: <008f01c27e31$543434c0$0fa1cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45866 Pip!Squeak writes: > Agreed. As I said, Harry is a great survivor - and one of his > survival tactics is sarcastic comments (another is running very fast > indeed). Ah, very true indeed. As a survivor, Harry has learned to use any and all resources to get the job done. Whether it's Hermione, Sirius, or just dumb luck. > But as for asking questions: Yes, he does ask questions - about > unimportant things. Important ones - well, Harry has to be angry, or > in real danger, or the adult has to encourage him. Otherwise, no. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the end of SS/PS when Dumbledore sat down with Harry in the hospital and basically said "Ask anything you want, but I might not be able to answer everything." the only time Harry was encouraged to ask about his past? I'm not saying people need to walk up to Harry every day and say, by the way kid, have any questions about your dead parents? But surely something should come up soon. At the end of PoA Harry confided in Dumbledore about thinking he saw his dad. Dumbledore says something nice, relates Harry's patronus to his dad, and walks off, leaving Harry with his thoughts. That, to me, would've been a great opportunity for Dumbledore to offer further insight into Harry's past. A missed opportunity. > He doesn't, for example, ask Dumbledore about Hagrid or Tom Riddle > in CoS, even though he sees in the Diary Vision that Dumbledore was > also there. He doesn't tell any adult about the theft of Tom > Riddle's diary. I think mainly because he knows it wasn't his in the first place. He just found it. And he probably should've turned it over to an adult, and he knew that too. Other, non-parental examples: He has never asked Neville why he was > living with his Grandmother. From the beginning of CoS to the summer > holidays in GoF, he doesn't ask why he can't go live with the > Weasley's during the summers. Not until the very end of GoF, after > he's actually told that Mrs Weasley had asked if he could live with > them. As for Neville, I don't know. Except that maybe Harry doesn't want to bring up the topic of dead/absent parents. As for the Weasleys, I think perhaps Harry doesn't want to push in too hard. He doesn't want to overstep the boundaries and risk losing what chance he does have to be there. On a side note, I think Harry will get to spend Christmas with the Weasleys in OoP. Since that hint was dropped in neatly by Mrs. Weasley saying she would invite him (in GoF) for the holidays but thought they'd all want to stay at Hogwarts for Christmas that year. I hope so, anyway. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** **** From nplyon at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 03:28:31 2002 From: nplyon at yahoo.com (Nicole L.) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 19:28:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: {FILK} Eccentric Message-ID: <20021028032831.23125.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45867 (To the tune of "Ironic" by Alanis Morissette) Dedicated to Grey Wolf. Even though I dont agree with your pet theory, I cant help but admire the tenacity with which you defend it. This filks for you! DUMBLEDORE (Resplendent in scarlet robes as he stands with his hands behind his back, staring contemplatively out of his office window.) An old wiz, greatest alive Done work with alchemy and blood of dragons Im a wise old guy, beat Dark Lords minions Defeated Grindlewald back in 45 But arent I eccentricdont you think? Told Harry I really like socks My fave room is chock full o chamber pots I really enjoy those sherbet lemon drops Im one crazy guy..ravin mad Got a pet phoenix by the name of Fawkes To teach DADA class, hired that Goldilocks Told Pomfrey she had to let a big black dog Stand guard by Harrys bed. She thought, "Well isnt he odd?" And arent I eccentricdont you think? Repeat chorus Well I have a funny way of allowing children Who are young to face grave danger and then hoping for the best And I have a funny way of preparing them and Then when everythings gone wrong hoping it wont blow up In my face And is it a plan made by the author Is it possible its MAGIC DISHWASHER? Could I be yet one more, a surprise animagus? If so, could it be my names Fawkes My supposed loyal pet phoenix And arent I eccentricdont you think? A little too eccentricIm really crazy Repeat chorus And yeah well I have a funny way of risking these children And I have a funny, funny way of preparing them Preparing them ~Nicole, who worked so hard at composing this filk while she was "working" today. :) ===== ***************************************************************** "You haven't got a letter on yours," George observed. "I suppose she thinks you don't forget your name. But we're not stupid--we know we're called Gred and Forge." Chapter 12, "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" ***************************************************************** __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From eleri at aracnet.com Mon Oct 28 04:26:52 2002 From: eleri at aracnet.com (CB) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 20:26:52 -0800 Subject: animagi In-Reply-To: <1035764520.2290.94985.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20021027202130.00cde300@mail.aracnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45868 >In a message dated 27/10/2002 12:19:10, Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) writes: >As a dog, Black still felt the emotions > and thoughts, but it is the > > dementors that were fooled. They could only sense that a human was not > > there. > > Maybe that gives strength to the fact that when an animagi wizard > > transforms, they really transform to fool everyone. > >Audra: >Not everyone. Crookshanks could tell that both Peter and Sirius were not >animals. Could be just plain old cat-sense instead of a 'sixth' sense. Maybe they didn't smell like rat and dog. I know my cats get all cranky if I come home smelling different. Crookshanks is the only animal we see interacting with Scabbers and Sirius, really. Sirius in dog form may have given every other cat and dog out there the creeps, too. Charlene From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 05:08:08 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 05:08:08 -0000 Subject: Animagi and Musings on FB&WTFT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45869 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Audra1976 at a... wrote: > > In a message dated 27/10/2002 12:19:10, Malady579 at h... (Melody) > writes: > > As a dog, Black still felt the emotions > and thoughts, but it > > is the dementors that were fooled. They could only sense that > > a human was not there. > > Audra: > > The human consciousness is buried so deep in the animal > > consciousness that it is only detectable when it is being > > accessed. > > How does that grab ya? > > > > --Audra > > > Me: (Julie) > Ok, interesting thought. I can see how this would lend itself > to the final scene then when the 100 dementors are cornering Sirius, > and he's forced to transform back to human form. He's running > looking for Scabbers (although that could be considered an animal > instinct) but his mind was probably running a million miles an hour > thinking about Harry and everyone else. That part was bothering me. > He can escape in the cell, but the dementors know it's him suddenly > out there at Hogwarts? But if you're right, that would probably > explain this scene. > > Julie bboy_mn: General Comments on animal mind/human mind: I agree that the human mind is subdued while in animal form. For an animal to survive, it must rely on it's instincts and it's hyper-sensory perception. So when a human transforms, his human conciousness steps into the background and lets the dog's (for example) instincts take over. To survive a dog must be keenly aware of it's hyper-sense of smell and hearing. It must react to outside stimulus like sound and movement with a dog's instinct. That's how it finds food, and among other things, that's partly how it protects itself. So the human conciousness becomes a passenger, someone just along for the ride. The human mind is still there, it's still aware of what is going on, it is still directing the broader more general actions of the body that it is in, but to survive as a dog, to some extent, it must allow itself to be a dog. During the time that the human conciousness is in the background, it is still aware and is capable of stepping out of the 'shadows' of the dogs mind when ever the human priorities out weigh the dogs instincts. Now the Dementors: For a majority of the time that they (Harry, Sirius, and friends) were on the Hogwarts grounds on their way back to the castle, they were in human form. The Dementors may have sense the presents of some people moving across the ground, and since it was late at night, that may have aroused their curiousity. Then when the moon came out and Lupin transformed, followed by Wormtail's transformation, there was a sudden surge of emotions by all parties involved. I think this sudden surge in emotions is what made the dementors some running. After pulling the Werewolf away from everyone, Sirius' next priority was his own escape, but he was leaving behind people he was very worried about and so his human conciousness was very much in the forefront. Also, after thinking about it and analysing Sirius' original escape, the Dementors must have developed some sense of how it happened. They may not have been aware that Sirius was a animagus, but they were aware by then that he was able to transform his mind in some way that allowed him to fool them. But I'm pretty sure given the serious nature of the Dementors, you only trick them once. When emotions amplified, the Dementors may have recognised Sirius and once that happened, they would have been tracking his movements on the grounds, so when he transformed into his less complex set of feelings, it didn't matter because they already had him located, and weren't going to be fooled again. Since they were not fooled, they came directly to him and the overwhelming presents of 100 really angry Dementors was overpowering enough that he couldn't sustain his animagus form. Curious side point, since the animal form is not the person's natural form, does the person have to constantly will himself to maintain his unnatural form, or is it more like a light swithch; 'flip the switch' and you're dog and remain so without effort until you 'flip the switch' again? So, in summary, I think the human conciousness has to step back far enough to let the animal be an animal, but that doesn't mean it's gone or that it isn't aware. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From Audra1976 at aol.com Mon Oct 28 03:41:25 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 22:41:25 -0500 Subject: Animagi and Kneazles Message-ID: <49016FAE.1598BE37.022D3A68@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45870 Me: <<<>>> Melody: <> Me: Oh, darn. Melody: <> I agree with that. A transformed Animagus must retain self-awareness. <> If this is true, then Sirius's explanation of how he escaped Azkaban is either a lie or an inconsistency in the story. I'm trying to cover for him. If only Sirius's outer appearance changed to a dog, but his mind remained the same, that certainly wouldn't fool the blind Dementors. And my explanation about the human consciousness still present within the animal brain covers Sirius's explanation as well as McGonagall and Skeeter processing language. And, I would have to add that a sense of self-awareness must be present at all times in the Animagus's mind, so that they can change back to human form at will. --Audra From naama2486 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 07:47:05 2002 From: naama2486 at yahoo.com (naama2486) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 07:47:05 -0000 Subject: Imperious influenced by Polyjuice Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45871 [ I'm not sure whether this has been brought up before, do if it has, sorry. ] I was thinking about Crouch!Moody. When he performed the Imperious Curse on Harry, Harry heard *Moody's* voice in his head. *Not* Crouch Jr's. How can that be? From Harry and Ron's experience with Polyjuice we know that you keep your own mind when you take the potion. It is the appearance that changes, but your mind stays the same. Does Polyjuice affect Imperious, then? Can a potion affect an Unforgiveable Curse? Thoughts? Naama the Not-So-New-Anymore From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 08:28:09 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:28:09 -0000 Subject: Imperious influenced by Polyjuice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45872 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "naama2486" wrote: > [ I'm not sure whether this has been brought up before, do if it has, sorry. ] > > I was thinking about Crouch!Moody. When he performed the Imperious > Curse on Harry, Harry heard *Moody's* voice in his head. *Not* > Crouch Jr's. How can that be? From Harry and Ron's experience with > Polyjuice we know that you keep your own mind when you take the > potion. It is the appearance that changes, but your mind stays the > same. Does Polyjuice affect Imperious, then? Can a potion affect > an Unforgiveable Curse? > > Thoughts? > > Naama the Not-So-New-Anymore bboy_mn: My guess is that he heard a voice, but not necessarily Moody's voice. Although, logically he would think it was Moody. Since he had never experienced the Imperious curse before and had no idea what was going to happen, added to that, that the Imperious curse makes you very euphoric, and any thought that came into his head, he would just assume that that's how the curse was suppose to work. He may have heard Moody's voice, or he may have heard Crouch's voice, or he may have heard the words spoken in his head in his own voice. While the book clearly says, "And then he heard Mad-Eye Moody's voice, echoing in some distant chamber of his empty brain: 'Jump onto the desk...'". It's not clear if that is a statement of fact or an interpretation by Harry. If he knew he was under the curse and heard a voice commanding him to do something, he would assume it was the voice of the person casting the curse. Again, while the text seems crystal clear, I'm saying that the combination of euphoria, expectations, and the fact that the voice was 'echoing in some distant chamber' are factor that lend doubt to the absolute accuracy of the text. You've raised an excellent point, and I don't recall it being talked about before, but there are a lot of people who have been here longer than I have, they would probably know better than me. As far as the point you raised, I'm not trying to say you are wrong, I'm trying to come up with possible explainations. An alternate explaination might be that when he took on Moody's body, his thoughts as well as his speech took on Moody's voice. How creepy would that be? To hear your own thoughts speaking to you in someone elses voice. So those are the only two explanations I can come up with, either it was an assumption on Harry's part or Crouches mental voice change to match his speaking voice. Of course, there is alway the possibility that JKR just overlooked this point. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 09:27:08 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:27:08 -0000 Subject: Harry is dull In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45873 Pip squeaked: > But as for asking questions: Yes, he does ask questions ? about > unimportant things. Important ones ? well, Harry has to be angry, or > in real danger, or the adult has to encourage him. Otherwise, no. Oh, this is a definite trait, yeah. His lack of curiosity (or unwillingness to ask) about personal stuff like his family is legendary on this list, and although it obviously serves an authorial purpose (JKR doesn't want us to know yet what James and Lily did for a living, etc.), still, that's who the character is, and it can't (IMO) be dismissed as "She *has* to make him like that." Harry's evolution into someone who is more willing to trust the trustworthy adults around him is one of my favorite topics. Furthermore, this ingrained habit of not asking questions causes some serious problems. Harry thinks about asking Lupin about the Grim way back on Halloween, but he refrains because he thinks Lupin already thinks him a coward; if he'd asked the question, Lupin would've instantly realized that Sirius was already tracking Harry and the story would have been very different. (Again, it would also have been a lot shorter--but the point is that Harry's reticence causes him a lot of trouble.) He thinks about telling Dumbledore what he's been hearing in CS, but as in PA, hesitates because of what Dumbledore will think of him, and as a result, several people nearly get killed before the mystery's wrapped up. Stepping back to see the big picture: Harry doesn't ask as many questions *of adults* as most kids would--as Ron and Hermione want to, for example--even though I still think he's far from a cowed abuse victim. But what I was reacting to was the idea that his curiosity and initiative have been beaten out of him (which I suppose would make him dull); they haven't, and he knows they haven't. He doesn't see adults as much of a resource, because he doesn't trust them; but he doesn't sit around waiting for others to take charge, or for a crisis to hit. He's curious almost to a fault, and when he wants to know about something, he dives in to find out. > In CoS, he again `goes with the flow' until he finds himself hearing > the balilisk threatening to *kill*. I'm not sure what standard we're looking for here. When Harry first hears the voice (CS 7), he doesn't march into Dumbledore's office demanding what invisible creatures inhabit the school, or head for the library to look up Beings With Creepy Voices. But neither does he just shrug and say "oh well, maybe we'll find out eventually." He's frantic, presses Lockhart, heads straight back to the dormitory and lies awake so as to be able to talk to Ron about it, and the chapter ends with his staring at his canopy trying to figure it out. There are a lot of scenes like that, in fact: Harry trying to understand something that all the adults would tell him is not his problem. And, of course, then plunging in, almost getting himself killed, and saving the day. So if the question is "is he afraid to ask adults questions," I'd agree that he is (never *completely,* but much more so at the beginning of the series). If the question is "is he afraid to ask questions, period" or "is he reluctant to take charge" or "has he learned to keep his head down and stay in survival mode," I'd say no. > Ron suggests the car. Nick > invites him into coming to the Deathday party. Oh, sure, of course other people suggest, persuade, lead him, etc. I didn't intend to say that others *don't* initiate actions and decisions, but rather that Harry *does.* > I'm not arguing that Harry isn't a leader. Harry *is* a leader. But > he doesn't *see* himself as one, and one of his biggest problems is > that it generally requires something quite dramatic to make him take > charge. I'm just not seeing this. In ordinary conversations with Ron and Hermione, he is constantly making decisions or suggesting their course of action. I can't say that any one of them stands out as the one who just sits and waits for someone else to take charge or something dramatic to prompt action. See, there's a difference between describing, or consciously seeing, yourself as a leader (which Harry does not) and having all the attributes that make one a leader (which Harry does). He takes charge at the drop of a hat, which shows an inner confidence despite his genuinely humble opinion of himself. > And I don't actually think Harry is boring, or ordinary, though I > can quite see that you might have thought that from my original > post. >From this bit, for example?: Pip: "And since that's how he sees himself, and he's the pov character, that's what we see. Boring. Ordinary. Follows his friends suggestions, rarely makes his own." ;-) I'm teasing, but I take your point. Many readers do see him this way. One of the things that makes a character interesting to me, both as a literary construction and as a person, is tension between his vision of himself and: his old vision of himself, his new vision of himself, other characters' perceptions, the author's intentions for him, or the reader's assumptions. Self-delusion, self-doubt, inner conflict, and change all draw this reader like a magnet. Harry has these things in spades. "Dull" is hard to define. I agree that heroes tend to be dull and boring, because characters bore me if they're hopelessly brave and just stomp around waving swords and delivering Dirty Harry lines before doing something really, well, heroic . Harry's courage would be a little too much to take if it came too easily; after all, this kid has more physical courage in his left pinky than most of us summon in a lifetime and that could be comic-book-ish if not done right. But instead, his courage is compelling because we know he's scared out of his wits but does all this gutsy stuff anyway. And we know he thinks he's ordinary. And we know he doesn't tell himself "I can handle this, I'm the Boy Who Lived"; the best he can assure himself with that heritage is that he might "get lucky again" (PS/SS) and that he's "not completely useless" (PA). All of that creates a lively contrast between his self-image and his actual ability and actions. I know we're on the same page here . . . I'm not arguing, just expanding. One thing Harry seldom is is funny. It took me until about a month ago to figure that out, and the reason I was so slow is that the narration is funny, so I tend to impute humor to him when it isn't really coming from him. He isn't devoid of humor; he says and thinks funny things now and then; and he isn't humorless, the way Hermione is often portrayed to be; but he's mostly straight man to Ron, who gets all the good lines. Maybe that's one thing people mean by "Harry's dull"? Amy Z ________________________ Paul Wellstone 1944-2002 ________________________ From orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 07:22:03 2002 From: orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com (orlaquirke2002) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 07:22:03 -0000 Subject: Lights (was More on Figg's protection) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45874 By the way before I start, this is my first post(and I'm far too excited by that prospect). I've been trawling through some of the recent threads, and this is one that has particularly caught my eye. > Gretchen asked: >Did Dumbledore suspect something mighthappen at the World Cup and wanted to make sure Harry has a little extra protection? Perhaps Arabella's protection spilled over to the tent? > > Barb deduced: > > As I said, I doubt that Perkins is a Figg. I believe it is far more likely that the tent came with some pre-fabricated sort of decor which is available to witches and wizards in an off-the-shelf manner (perhaps in a catalogue). I love this Idea! I wonder what it would be called? Sorry, is that off topic? > Melody wrote liking Barb's idea of wizard decor catalogues: > Also if the house/tent is what protects Harry, then he really did not spend much time in there. When the death eaters have their little > playtime, Arthur sent The Three into the woods. Surely sending Harry away from the protective tent that night would of been completely foolish. The safest place for Harry would of been the cabbage tent. Besides, Harry's protections seems to be about certain people not places. I really do almost agree with Melody here. Except that I like the lights idea that someone came up with on friday. I think that, although it was a powerful way to set the scene as magical, what Dumbledore did with the lights in privet drive was far too long winded (surely a simple incantation would have been enough)to simply be about turning the lights out for privacy purposes, and even seemed ritualistic as if it could be a spell. That's my two penneth worth anyway. Orla From elfundeb at comcast.net Mon Oct 28 12:34:17 2002 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 07:34:17 -0500 Subject: Sirius & the Dementors/Lupin References: <181.10e442fa.2aed26f2@aol.com> Message-ID: <000a01c27e7e$5534d4e0$3a3b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 45875 Julie Strangfeld asked regarding Sirius and the Dementors: > So, when he's transformed into Padfoot, and chasing Scabbers out on > the Hogwart's grounds . . . the 100 dementors come out and force him > to change back to a human. > > My questions, how and why did they find out and force him? > My theory is that Sirius was not forced to change back to human form but that he did it intentionally to get hold of Scabbers to recapture him, since only Pettigrew in the flesh could exonerate Sirius. The sequence of events is this: (i) Harry yells out that Pettigrew has transformed into a rat, (ii) Sirius goes after him, (iii) after checking on Ron, Harry and Hermione hear "a yelping, a whining, a dog in pain,(iv) Harry and Hermione go after Sirius, and Harry feels the cold then, (v) the yelping stops just before they get there because Sirius has just transformed again, and (vi) Harry sees the Dementors coming. The thing I find telling is the yelping in pain. IIRC, there is no suggestion anywhere that the Dementors cause pain, so something else must have made Sirius yelp in dog form. Sirius was gashed from his encounter with Lupin the werewolf, but it seems odd that he'd run all the way across the grounds after Scabbers/Petigrew, then stop and yelp in pain while the Dementors -- a much more immediate threat to Sirius -- closed in. Therefore, I theorize that Sirius might have been grappling with Scabbers/Pettigrew as the Dementors approached, and that Scabbers fought back by biting (remember how Scabbers bit Goyle on the train in PS/SS?), and that Sirius turned back to human form to get Scabbers. Under this theory, Sirius did not sense the presence of the Dementors until he transformed, partly because he was too focused on Scabbers/Pettigrew and partly because as a dog he was less affected by them. On whether Lupin suspected Sirius of being the spy before Lily & James died, Barb said: > While it is clear that Lupin meant that Sirius thought Lupin was the spy > back before the Potters were killed, it is unlikely that Lupin meant that > he thought Sirius was the spy at the same time, since he knew Sirius was > the Secret Keeper (this is the "change" that Peter was referring to). And Eloise responded in part: I think one of the tragic things about the situation before Voldemort's fall was that it was almost impossible to trust anyone. We're told what the atmosphere was like at the time. The situation was so bad that even three men who had trusted each other as completely as Sirius, Lupin and James could harbour suspicions about each other. Dumbledore suspected there was a spy in the organisation. So did Sirius. Therefore I suppose that Lupin must also have done so at the time. So who did he suspect? The thing that I find odd if it refers only to his beliefs *after* the event is the use of the word 'spy'. In the context of James' and Lily's deaths, I would have thought something like 'betrayer' or even 'murderer' (referring as well to the Muggle deaths and Pettigrew's apparent death) might have come more readily to mind, rather than 'spy' which seems to me to refer more generally to the leaking of information prior to the event. Me: Based on the conversation in The Three Broomsticks we learn that Dumbledore "was sure that somebody close to the Potters had been keeping [Voldemort] informed of their movements" and suspected that somebody had turned traitor (McGonagall is the source, so I think it's credible even though I think she learned all this from Dumbledore well after the fact). She also says that Dumbledore himself was so worried he offered to be the Secret-Keeper himself. And as Eloise points out, the fact that Lupin uses the word "spy" indicates that both he and Sirius knew there was a spy before the Potters' deaths. Therefore I think everyone was aware that there was a spy, and the only question was which of them it was. Lupin had to suspect someone. The group of people "close to the Potters" who could have been the spy waslimited to those who knew them well enough to know their movements. I think it was limited to the Potters' very close friends, basically the "old crowd" Dumbledore identifies at the end of GoF. It's a very small group of people consisting of perhaps no one other than Sirius, Lupin, Arabella Figg and Mundungus Fletcher. Unless Lupin suspected Pettigrew despite the general consensus that he wasn't up to that sort of thing, the only other candidates were Sirius, Arabella, Mundungus Fletcher or Dumbledore himself. Maybe he should have suspected Mundungus Fletcher, that old hexer and false claim artist. But I don't think he did. And Arabella? Well, I think she was Lily's best friend and godmother to Harry (even though that sounds a bit Cinderella-ish, and, yes, I believe she's been using an Aging Potion over on Privet Drive), but Lupin didn't have any reason to suspect her. So Sirius becomes the choice by default. Barb again: >Second, I hardly think Lupin would have felt at the fringes with three friends who >went out of their way to become Animagi and accompanied him during the full >moon. Eloise: I don't find it at all hard to imagine that with the burden of his lycanthropy and the social exclusion he must have experienced before coming to Hogwarts, Lupin found it very difficult to believe he was entirely accepted by his friends. And I hate to say it, but he could almost just have been an *excuse* for the others to work on the dangerous and exciting project of becoming Animagi and of going off on their monthly adventures. Or he could have interpreted it that way, depending how secure he felt in his friendships. Me: I must echo Eloise's version of events. Lupin harbored a great deal of insecurity despite the friendship of WPP. Lupin seems to have been so grateful that they didn't abandon him that he would do just about anything to maintain their friendship. For example, he never voiced his concerns about the danger they were putting themselves into. Moreover, I believe that the Prank was a very disturbing event to Lupin as well as to Snape, which may have given Lupin a lingering impression that Sirius *was* using Lupin's condition as an excuse for fun and games. Looking back, I see that when I detailed back in June why Sirius might suspect Lupin I talked about what the Prank might have done to their relationship -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39781. And if Lupin did feel this way about Sirius, then it's easy to understand how Lupin could have suspected Sirius, if he knew there had to be a spy and he had only a limited group of people to choose among. I don't think Sirius would be above suspicion merely because he was the known Secret-Keeper. I think part of the guilt Lupin's been carrying all these years was that he had suspected Sirius but kept it to himself because he half thought the suspicions were the result of his own irrational insecurities. In fact, both Lupin and Sirius made tragic errors in not being open with one another. Debbie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gandharvika at hotmail.com Mon Oct 28 16:51:06 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:51:06 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Hey Grim Dog Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45876 Hey Grim Dog (A FLIK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Hey Bull Dog_ by the Beatles) Listen to it here: www.geocities.com/michellesrockinatoz/RealAudio.html Harry: Grim dog - seeing you again Black dog - driving me insane Some sort of ill fortune comes just by seeing you They say it's death but I don't know if it is true First time - you were discovered Then I'm - almost run over Could be coincidence or is it that I'm doomed? It might be bunk but then I don't want to assume Please stop haunting me, please stop haunting me Please stop haunting me, I'm asking you to stop haunting me Saw the - Grim's dark silhouette It's a - sight I won't forget Ron's uncle Bilius saw one standing nearby Twenty-four hours later Bilius had died Please stop haunting me, please stop haunting me Please stop haunting me, I'm asking you to stop haunting me Hey Grim dog, Hey Grim dog Hey Grim dog, Hey Grim dog Harry (spoken): Hey Grim dog. Sirius: Woof Harry: Hey man, who are you boy? Sirius: Woof Harry: Whatta ya say? Sirius: I said, "Woof" Harry: D'ya know any more? Sirius: Arooooo-wa ah! Ha HA! Harry: You got him! Get him! get him, man! Get him! Quiet boy, quiet Sirius: Okay Harry: Hey Grim dog -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls!Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp From weavingon at earthlink.net Mon Oct 28 14:30:49 2002 From: weavingon at earthlink.net (weavingon) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:30:49 -0000 Subject: Imperious influenced by Polyjuice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45877 I think it's probably just a case of JKR not wanting us to suspect that Moody wasn't really Moody at that point. Or, perhaps, the effect of Polyjuice would cause you to appear to be that person (from someone else's perspective) in every aspect...including any sort of telepathic persuasion or magic you may use while in that form. The intent of the potion is to make others belive that you are that person, after all. That's how it comes across for me at least. From iwant12 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 28 17:48:17 2002 From: iwant12 at hotmail.com (fruhu) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:48:17 -0000 Subject: names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45878 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Freya wrote: > > << But anyway I wonder why JKR has made some of the character names > so obvious, like Hooch, Sprout, Albus... > Is Hooch an obvious name? Please explain it to me. My mistake. Hooch is in no way an obvious name - I mixed it up with something else. > What I don't > understand, either way, is why the wizarding folk haven't yet > NOTICED how meaningful the names are, and e.g. figured out that young > Hogwarts student Remus Lupin was a werewolf as soon as the readers > did. The other thing I don't understand is how all this destiny stuff > gets along with JKR's preaching of free will. Good point. This is what I meant was annoying actually... Duh. Sorry I was unclear about it. F > From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 18:12:08 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:12:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Imperious influenced by Polyjuice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021028181208.61804.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45879 weavingon wrote: Or, perhaps, the effect of Polyjuice would cause you to appear to be that person (from someone else's perspective) in every aspect...including any sort of telepathic persuasion or magic you may use while in that form. The intent of the potion is to make others belive that you are that person, after all. Me: Are you implying that Polyjuice does anything but affect a person's outward appearance? I do not believe it does anything beyond this, based on the fact that Harry and Ron do not get Crabbe and Goyle's brains when they transform themselves (and, the fur on the face notwithstanding, Hermione doesn't get the brain of a cat). If they were to have some "telepathic" link with Malfoy's sidekicks, they could have found the Slytherin common room with no problem. Instead, they almost ran out of time wandering around the dungeons. A more likely explanation for Crouch's dead-on impersonation of Moody, personality, magical-style and all, is that he KNEW Mad-Eye Moody. Given his father's position in the Ministry during Voldemort's first reign of terror (as seen in Dumbledore's Pensieve) it is entirely possible that the elder Crouch and his wife regularly entertained Aurors in their home or took their son with them to social engagements in other homes where Aurors would be present. In this manner, he may also have had occasion to meet the Longbottoms, and this is something that may have led him to believe that Frank Longbottom or his wife knew the whereabouts of Voldemort after he lost his power (if, hypothetically, Crouch was the one who hatched the plan, and not the Lestranges or the other unnamed wizard who was tried with them). All told, even though he was not long out of school when he was caught and sent to Azkaban (Harry reckons he's around nineteen when he sees him on trial) he probably had plenty of contact with the Longbottoms and Moody over the years. He was in a position to know very important details about Moody, and, as a Death Eater, he was no doubt taught how to do the Unforgivable Curses. I sincerely doubt that the potion has anything to do with anything beyond his physical appearance as Moody. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Mon Oct 28 18:42:14 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:42:14 EST Subject: Some Thoughts On Some Stuff, etc. Message-ID: <3b.2ec61b5e.2aeedf06@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45880 evenflow makes a number of statements and poses a number of questions regarding the secret keeper debacle. I submit my own interpretation of the matter, which goes as follows; Yes, Dumbledore knew there was a spy in his ranks. They all were aware that there was a spy in their ranks. For that matter, I suspect that Voldemort knew that somewhere in his organizaton he had a spy. The whole situation at the time of V's fall was overloaded with spies. That's why Dumbledore offered to be secret keeper for the Potters. Because he knew there was a spy, and he didn't know who it was. Dumbledore was also wary about Sirius for another reason. Sirius is clever enough, but he is impulsive and he takes risks that are likely to get himself killed. You don't want someone for a secret keeper that is likely to go off and get himself killed, taking the secret with him. There was a particularly nasty terrorist-style war going on, remember? IMHO, Sirius is not particularly stable, even if he WAS James Potter's best friend. Not even back then. The Dememtors only made him worse. (I suspect bi-polar disorder, myself.) I think that James and his friends went back far enough and were such a closely-knit group that, at the time, it didn't occur to either James or Lupin that the spy was one of themselves. I think that they were more inclined to suspect other members of Dumbledore's organization, with whom they worked closely. Sirius, however, later admits that he had suspected Lupin. This could be standard wizarding predjudice in action, coming to the surface once push comes to shove. Or it could have been a bit of fallout related to the Whomping Willow incident. I can very well believe that there was a coolness on Lupin's part despite the fact that he may have claimed to have forgiven Sirius for the prank, and Sirius claimed that he was sorry. Personally, I think it was the latter. Sirius is a throughly self-absorbed individual, (and was so well before the Dementors got their hands on him. They improve nothing, they steal parts of their victim's psyches but they put nothing in its place. Whatever is left would have been there to begin with) he is not of a forgiving disposition and he does not often choose to be put in the wrong. (Unless he absolutely has no choice in the matter -- then he wallows in it.) And if he harbored some niggling sense of blame toward Lupin for having been the cause for his having been put into the wrong over the Shrieking Shack incident, it wouldn't be the only case we've seen where he has unrepentantly, and very disingeneously, determined to blame his own victim for what could have happened to him. Snape isn't the only wizard we've met who has a spiteful streak, and if Sirius can be so self-serving as to assign blame to Snape for the incident, he is certainly capable of assigning it to Lupin as well. (The "all is forgiven" scene in PoA is fueled to a large extent by mutual relief over the discovery of each having one "true friend" left after both believing that they were the last of the group. They both still have issues to work through once the dust settles a bit.) Plus, the four of them DID have a spy among themselves. And Peter was not sitting idle through this. He was encouraging Sirius to suspect Lupin. He was also probably working on Lupin to not fully trust Sirius. And he was certainly working on James and Sirius to trust HIM. We still don't have much of a handle on how James Potter's mind worked. But it is pretty clear that Sirius is very easily manipulated by anyone who knows him well, and knows what buttons to push. I quite confidently believe that the idea of sending out a "decoy" secret keeper originated with Peter Pettigrew. Once the idea would have had the time to sprout, I suspect that Sirius would have been very taken with the notion of being the Noble, Heroic Decoy leading the suspicious off on a wild goose chase while faithful, inconspicuous little Peter actually keeps the Potters' secret location from their enemies. And it's an idea that Dumbledore would not have endorsed, being both too risky and quite unnecessary. So, of course Sirius disuaded James from acepting Dumbledore's offer to keep the secret of where he and Lily were hiding. Peter expertly led Sirius, James and Lily into a trap. And, y'know? Given what seems to have been underpinning Mr. Black's personality from way back, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that in doing it Peter may have had some scores to settle on his own account. -JOdel From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Oct 28 19:29:31 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 19:29:31 -0000 Subject: Some Thoughts On Some Stuff, etc. In-Reply-To: <3b.2ec61b5e.2aeedf06@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45881 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jodel at a... wrote: > > I think that James and his friends went back far enough and were such a closely-knit group that, at the time, it didn't occur to either James or Lupin that the spy was one of themselves. I think that they were more inclined to suspect other members of Dumbledore's organization, with whom they worked closely. Sirius, however, later admits that he had suspected > Lupin. <<< I think, from Snape's reaction to the Marauder's Map, that Snape knew and had reported to Dumbledore that Voldemort had an agent he called "Wormtail" as he does in the graveyard scene. It would be just like Peter to engage in a double-bluff, using his own secret name as a disguise. If Dumbledore shared this information with James, it could account for James' certainty that one of his close friends was working for Voldemort. In my unpopular opinion , James had perfectly valid reasons for suspecting Lupin. His mistake lay in thinking that Voldemort had corrupted only one of his old pals. Either Pettigrew or possibly Lupin (if Lupin secretly took his potion) could have sicced the Dementors on Sirius the night of the Shrieking Shack. It seems likely that skilled wizards can communicate with the Dementors telepathically, as the Dementors must communicate this way among themselves. In that case either Peter or Evil!Lupin could have told them where Sirius was without assuming a human form. Pippin From mn_emily at hotmail.com Mon Oct 28 18:32:42 2002 From: mn_emily at hotmail.com (Emily F) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:32:42 -0600 Subject: More Animagus (A Clarification) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45882 bboy said: >If they had all turned into rats, or say a rat, a squirrel, and a >rabbit, (or pick three small furry animals of your own) they would >have undergone a very dangerous and illegal tranformation only to find >the they had become animals that weren't capable of handling a >werewolf. Being able to control Lupin as well as keep him company >while he was a werewolf was the whole point of doing it. Controlling Lupin was not vital, since they became animagi in order to keep him company. "'They couldn't keep me company as humans, so they kept me company as animals,' said Lupin. ... They would then slip down the tunnel and join me. Under their influence, I became less dangerous.'" (PoA, US QP ed., pg. 354-5, "Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs") It's not until two paragraphs later that Lupin explains: "'[W]ell, highly exciting possibilities were open to us now that we could all transform. Soon we were leaving the Shrieking Shack and roaming the school and the village by night.'" (pg. 355) IOW, being able to control Lupin had nothing to do with the reason that they became animagi. As long as they were in their animal form, he was no danger to them, so there was no need to control him. Their size only became important later, when they decided that they could have a little fun with their newfound freedom. Emily, who has no opinion on whether animagi choose their animal forms, and will now go back to lurking. _________________________________________________________________ Broadband?Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 19:32:49 2002 From: orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com (orlaquirke2002) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 19:32:49 -0000 Subject: Some Thoughts On Some Stuff, etc. (Sirius) In-Reply-To: <3b.2ec61b5e.2aeedf06@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45883 JOdel wrote: >Sirius is a throughly self-absorbed > individual, he is not of a forgiving disposition and he does not often choose to be put > in the wrong. (Unless he absolutely has no choice in the matter -- then he > wallows in it.) And if he harbored some niggling sense of blame toward Lupin > for having been the cause for his having been put into the wrong over the > Shrieking Shack incident, it wouldn't be the only case we've seen where he > has unrepentantly, and very disingeneously, determined to blame his own > victim for what could have happened to him. > I don't know. I definately agree with the rest of your argument, but I'm not so sure that I picture Sirius as self obsessed a you've described him here. You have to remember that Snape was his nemesis; much as Malfoy is to Harry, and he did what he did out of anger at Snape's snooping around; had he really wanted to kill Snape, he wouldn't have told James. Not only that, but he really does blame himself almost entirely for what happens to Lilly and James, risking his life to come back to be there for Harry during the events in GoF. And anyway, as you point out, he is extremely hot headed, and at the time he was only 16. Have some sympathy for the fool hardiness of youth! We have no canon evidence after this point that Sirius is self obsessed at all. Orla From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 23:37:36 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 23:37:36 -0000 Subject: How old is Dumbledore?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45884 I was under the impression that JKR specifically said he was about 150 years old. But the media doesn't seem to agree. Apparently, something as trivial as actually reading the books or doing some research isn't necessary to write an article about it. CBBC Newsround- (who I would expect to know better) "The cathedral in Gloucester is over 1,300 years old - almost as old as Dumbledore! " Entertainment Weekly- (In an article about Richard Harris.) "Hogwarts headmaster Albus Dumbledore looks pretty good for a guy who's 2,000 years old. " Ananova- (which is consider a pretty reliable news source) "Harris, who plays 2,000-year-old Dumbledore in the Harry Potter films, has been treated in University College Hospital." "Red Nose Day" Online Chat Transcript (BBC?) Monday 12th March 2001 From- http://www.burrow-jp.com/library/original/03122001b.html Question from Steve Martin: How old are Professor Dumbledore and Professor Snape? JK Rowling: Dumbledore's about 150 years old (wizards have a longer life expectancy than us) and Muggles Snape's 35/6. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 2,000 years old, he would be 1,000 years older than Hogwarts. I know this isn't quite canon but I just thought I would throw it in so you could share my frustration. bboy_mn From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Mon Oct 28 23:52:02 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 23:52:02 -0000 Subject: Animagical Minds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45885 Jacob Lewis wrote: > Hey all, > > There's been a lot of discussion over whether or not Animagi keep their > mental abilities while in their 'Animal Form', and I thought I'd throw in my > (or rather, CS Lewis') two knutes: > > In his book _The_Discarded_Image_, CS Lewis discloses that, to the Medieval > Mind, there were three, um, 'aspects' to a person's soul: Vegetable, > Sensitive, and Rational. The first, which is responsible for all our basic > growing, eating, &c. is simple enough, but here's the tough part: the > Sensitive is what divides beasts from plants, and lets us, well, sense > things (there are ten senses, BTW, five outside that we all know, and five > 'inside', which are: memory, instinct, retention of perception (different > from memory), thinking, and common sense). The Rational aspect, in short, > is the ability to understand complex truths. > > Perhaps, and this is a big perhaps, what happens when a human becomes an > animal is that he retains his sensitive soul (which, recall, has the virtues > of memory, &c.) but, um... 'puts away' the rational soul (which animals do > not have). Thus, the Animagus can make decisions, put things together, > figure out what they're doing, make plans, etc -- but would fall flat on > their face if you tried to make them understand, say, Plato, or -- for a > more recent Wiz -- Paracelsus. > > Jacob, who doubts whether JKR consciously used this theory at all. IIRC my philosophy classes (which I might not - I never did like them very much), that is not Lewis own theory, or even from the middle ages: it sounds like basic Plato theory to me (the two cuadrigas and the rider, I think was the example used). If not, it was Aristotle. Never mind, really. I doubt that is the case, whoever said it in the first place. The fact is that Sirius mentions that it was his *feelings* that got animal-like (and it's the feelings that the dementors use as guide, not rational thought which, in itself, is neither happy nor sad). Most interesting, however, is Rita's own animagus form. In that form, she doesn't have feelings we could relate to, almost for sure, and if she had to act on instinct, she wouldn't hang around the Slytherins fishing for information. Judging from the animagi we know best -Sirius and Rita- I have to say that I'm much more confortable with the idea that their mind remains the same, but their feelings resemble those of the animal. Which means that if you've got a strong enough mind to override your feelings (most of the time, everyone can, except when the feelings get *too* strong), you can control the instincts of whatever animal you turn into and you can still act rationaly. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Tue Oct 29 00:06:40 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:06:40 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How old is Dumbledore?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021028235444.00965eb0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45886 I know that this is not only off topic, but short; however, HPFGU seems a little quiet so I hope I'll be forgiven ... At 23:37 28/10/02 +0000, Steve wrote: >Ananova- (which is consider a pretty reliable news source) Please note that Ananova is *not* a news source. It is a news digest - everything on Ananova is republished from other news outlets (mainly British newspapers). The Ananova people are actually quite naughty, because they never, ever, acknowledge the source. Every time someone mentions an Ananova story, my first reaction is to look for the source article... I never consider anything on Ananova to be properly reliable because it's usually a very incomplete story. As for castigating the press for not researching Dumbledore's age, we may as well castigate them for most things they write on most subjects, as current journalistic standards seem to be somewhere in the gutter, if not lower. :-) From Malady579 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 29 01:08:55 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 01:08:55 -0000 Subject: Animagi and Alkatraz Alzcaban In-Reply-To: <49016FAE.1598BE37.022D3A68@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45887 Hey, Audra. :) Let's try this attempt to make us both happy. I wrote: <> Audra points out: >>If this is true, then Sirius's explanation of how he escaped Azkaban is either a lie or an inconsistency in the story. I'm trying to cover for him.<< Hey, I'm all for covering Sirius. Preferable next to a warm fire... Now to whether Sirius was lying in the shack. I doubt it. At that time in the shrieking shack, what did he have to gain by lying? And besides if he did, the extremely educated Lupin would call his bluff. Lupin was there to see his friends create the potion and also saw their reactions and state as animagi, so I think he would know what the actions and mannerisms of a animagus wizard would be. As to it being inconsistent, well...that is hard to say exactly. We are, after all, trying to guess the "rules" that JKR has laid out for the inner workings of animagi. So, since I do not want to say she is being inconsistent, let me try and figure out a way Sirius can be all man in mind and all animal in body still all the while fooling the dementors. Audra explained: >>If only Sirius's outer appearance changed to a dog, but his mind remained the same, that certainly wouldn't fool the blind Dementors. And my explanation about the human consciousness still present within the animal brain covers Sirius's explanation as well as McGonagall and Skeeter processing language.<< True, true. It does cover for them all. I just get caught on the mechanics of how a human mind can be concealed and yet also used behind an animal mind. In my imagination's version, when a wizard changes from human to animal, every part of the body changes except the brain which just shrinks in size. It never undergoes a transformation. The reason why Sirius transforms into a dog in his cell seems to be the part that is causing the seemed inconsistency. Maybe we are interpreting the quote and his reasoning wrong. Let me find it in the book...just a second...hold on...Ok it reads. "'I think the only reason I never lost my mind is that I knew I was innocent. That wasn't a happy thought, so the dementors couldn't suck it out of me... but it kept me sane and knowing who I am...helped me keep my powers...so when it all became...too much...I could transform in my cell...become a dog. Dementors can't see, you know...' He swallowed. 'They feel their way toward people by feeding off their emotions....They could tell that my feelings were less -- less human, less complex when I was a dog...but they thought, of course, that I was losing my mind like everyone else in there, so it didn't trouble them. But I was weak, very weak, and I had no hope of driving them away from me without a wand...'" PoA, Ch 19 Gracious that is a lot to type. Oh, one more part of canon that can apply... "but it [seeing Peter in the newspaper] gave me strength, it cleared my mind. So one night when they opened my door to bring food, I slipped past them as a dog...It's so much harder for them to sense animal emotions that they were confused..." PoA, Ch 19 Now we can take that passage two ways. The popular: Black's simpler animal emotions are what allowed him to escape from Alcatraz Azkaban without detection. They could not sense him, so they did not pursue him. Or possibly: Black was able to convince the dementors he was not of sound mind, so they assumed he was no threat. By that deception, he was able to sneak out. Since the dementors cannot see, they did not know a prisoner left. They thought he was dead or just weak in his cell, so they did not suspect an escapee. I am prone to believe the later. If it was just an emotion shield, then the dementors could still feel a body slip out the prison front door. They can still sense the animal emotions. But since they thought he was weak and insane, they could not understand how a weak, insane prisoner could get out. They were confused by that thought not the emotions. But you say that the dementors could tell the emotions were simpler. Somehow the human emotions Black was feeling were simpler to them. Therefore, they actually were simpler. I disagree. Just because the dementors perceive them to be simpler does not mean they are. Black still felt all his emotions as a dog. They are not simpler. Just perceived as being so. How and why the dementors are fooled is not relying on the physical fact of human emotions being buried, but rather, on the reality that their perception can be fooled. Is this any clearer? I know I am harping a bit on this a bit. Have I found a middle ground at all Audra? Melody Who want to tell Filker Nicole, "I loved your Ironic/Eccentric Filk. Loved it. :) Completely ingenious. Four stars." From cureluv88 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 29 03:21:30 2002 From: cureluv88 at hotmail.com (Liz) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 03:21:30 -0000 Subject: Who were the Potters? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45888 I've been reading the recent posts on Sirius and Lupin, regarding them suspecting each other as being the spy for Voldemort, and it's really got me wondering about James and Lily Potter. First off, yeah, this has probably been done to death (we can only say so much till book five is out) but I don't think it has been in awhile, and it's very much on my mind. OK, so Dumbledore suspected there was spy in the ranks, Sirius suspected there was a spy, everyone did, you know, but why is it that the innocence of James and Lily is never questioned? I'm not at all meaning that in the sense that I think they weren't innocent; I just want to know what it is about them, what did they do, that puts them above reproach. I know that because Dumbledore had his own spies, he knew that Voldemort was after the Potters - so obviously no one would suspect James or Lily for being the spy when it is them that are needing protection. Still, though, in general? If things were as uneasy at that time as they sound, what is the deal with the Potters that no one would ever suspect them of anything? And, of course, the other obvious nagging question, why was Voldemort targetting them in the first place? Either Dumbledore and his crew could understand why the Potters would be targeted, and we the readers just don't know it yet, or it was a mystery, in which case I'd think that Dumbledore would wonder why the Potters would be such specific targets. I don't have any suggestions or theories, just questions that are bugging me. Any ideas? Lizbot From editor at texas.net Tue Oct 29 04:28:31 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:28:31 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Animagi and Kneazles References: <49016FAE.1598BE37.022D3A68@aol.com> Message-ID: <007301c27f03$a3d267e0$7004a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 45889 Melody had said: <> and then Audra said: If this is true, then Sirius's explanation of how he escaped Azkaban is either a lie or an inconsistency in the story. I'm trying to cover for him. If only Sirius's outer appearance changed to a dog, but his mind remained the same, that certainly wouldn't fool the blind Dementors. Me, now: I have been lost in the details of this discussion (alas for the days when I was a stay at home mom and had more time!), but this is my take on it, which kind of helps me to encompass the parameters JKR has set. It has its roots in an old medieval analogy to help people grasp the mystery of the Incarnation (something about how Mary could have the baby and still be virgin; it's been a while and the details escape me). The image was light; it can shine through colored glass, be transformed into colored light, but the passage of the light does not change the glass. Something like that (Caius? other men/women of letters? a little help here?). Anyway, I see the animagus form as a sort of screen (or glass) through which the emotions of the wizard are filtered. The intellect is intact, but the emotions (which are all Sirius mentions) must come through the form, and they take on the color of that form, like the light takes the color of the glass it passes through. It is the same light, but changed. The same emotions, but altered, at least enough to confuse dementors. Comments? Thoughts? Shouts of derision? ~Amanda (who would like her form to be something graceful and lovely like a falcon, but will admit it would probably be a harpy) From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Tue Oct 29 04:47:05 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 04:47:05 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who were the Potters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021029034340.00971c40@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45890 At 03:21 29/10/02 +0000, Liz wrote: >I know that because Dumbledore had his own spies, he knew that >Voldemort was after the Potters - so obviously no one would suspect >James or Lily for being the spy when it is them that are needing >protection. Still, though, in general? If things were as uneasy at >that time as they sound, what is the deal with the Potters that no >one would ever suspect them of anything? And, of course, the other >obvious nagging question, why was Voldemort targetting them in the >first place? Either Dumbledore and his crew could understand why the >Potters would be targeted, and we the readers just don't know it yet, >or it was a mystery, in which case I'd think that Dumbledore would >wonder why the Potters would be such specific targets. I subscribe to the popularly-held belief that the reason why Voldemort was after the Potters had something to do with Trelawney's First Prediction (the substance of the Prediction remains pure speculation, of course). As some have recently voiced here, one thing I wonder about is why Dumbledore (and presumably Voldemort) considered the First Prediction to be accurate. This will probably be explained at the same time as we find out its substance (JKR has admitted that the First Prediction is of great importance to the story), although I suspect it's got something to do with the Centaurs (we know from JKR that Firenze will be re-appearing). I also believe (AFAIK this is *not* a common belief) that at the time of the attacks (and perhaps since Harry's birth if not before), the Potters were living a Muggle life in Muggle surroundings (apart from a gut feeling, my only support for that is the presence of electricity and the decor of their home in TMTSNBN; judging by the details Columbus & Co elicited from JKR for the "look" of the Potterverse, I'm sure that their cottage's appearance was done with JKR's blessing). I'm not decided whether the Potters deliberately distanced themselves from the magical community when Harry was born, whether they were sent into hiding (which was eventually reinforced by the Fidelius) or whether they kept themselves at a kind of halfway point, with one foot inside the wizarding community and one in the Muggle world. Either way, they were not directly connected with Voldemort's First Reign of Terror, and thus had little reason to be suspected by either side. Something changed, and I believe that this consisted of Voldemort going after all of James's relatives. However... A series of not necessarily connected thoughts and questions which lead I know not where: From the timeline as we understand it, Snape is 35-6 in PoA (as are his peers); James & Lily would have been about 22 at the time of Harry's birth; we know from Dumbledore & McGonagall's conversation in PS/SS that the wizarding community had spent 11 years in fear of Voldemort. Is it just a coincidence that Voldemort's rise coincided with Lily & James starting at Hogwarts? Were James and Lily's adventures at Hogwarts connected to Voldemort's first reign, the way Harry's are with his second? What did James & Lily get up during the 4 years or so between leaving Hogwarts and conceiving Harry? At what point in time did Trelawney make her First Prediction? How did Voldemort find out about it? The scenario I've come up with is that Trelawney's First Prediction was made to James during classes - she appears oblivious to the prediction she makes to Harry, so there's no reason for her to refer to it when Harry joins her class - and James tells Dumbledore about it. Like Harry, James also tells his close friends about it, and it's Wormtail who eventually tells Voldemort. How all of this fits into why Voldemort wanted to get Harry, I have no idea. These are just idle ramblings which I probably shouldn't be posting right now anyway, as it's almost 5am... However, I'll see what happens when the rest of you read this... -- GulPlumn AKA Richard, From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Oct 29 05:45:45 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 05:45:45 -0000 Subject: I Am An Arachnid (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45891 I Am An Arachnid (CoS, Chap. 15) (To the tune of the Beatles' A Hard Day's Night) Hear the original at: http://www.geocities.com/michellesrockinatoz/RealAudio.html Dedicated to Gail B. (We love her, yeah, yeah, yeah!) THE SCENE: The Forbidden Forest. HARRY & RON are taken prisoner by ARAGOG and associates ARAGOG: I am an Arachnid And you can call me Aragog I'm a friend of Hagrid He taught me how to spin weblogs That man protected my life And then he found me a wife I hope he's feeling alright You know there was a day When that dark Chamber released some thing And I really could sense some foul play `Cause I could feel that beast moving I said, "Hagrid, let me go, Into the Forest I'll flow, Do not require I stay." Good Hagrid, he raised me up from an egg Good Hagrid, he wasn't scared of eight legs, legs, yeah HARRY & RON It's been a harsher fright When we hear your pincers click It's been a scary sight That we consider traumatic So, it's OK if we go? We're pals of Hagrid, you know, So can we two just split? ARAGOG Although my instinct's to kill My victim list remains nil At Hogwarts none did I slay That poor girl she was killed in a bathroom We don't name that thing that crawled out of a tomb, tomb, yeah I am an Arachnid And they all call me Aragog Though a friend of Hagrid I have to sometimes demagogue Because he's sent you to me I must now tell my kiddies That they'll be feeding alright That they'll be feeding alright You know they're feeding alright (Hordes of gigantic spiders converge on HARRY, RON & Fang, when a car horn sounds in the background ..) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From the.gremlin at verizon.net Tue Oct 29 06:52:10 2002 From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 06:52:10 -0000 Subject: How old is Dumbledore?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45892 bboy_mn wrote: "I was under the impression that JKR specifically said he was about 150 years old." She did, I don't know where, but she did. "But the media doesn't seem to agree. Apparently, something as trivial as actually reading the books or doing some research isn't necessary to write an article about it." Journalism sucks these days. I plan to change that. Or try, anyway. ""Red Nose Day" Online Chat Transcript (BBC?) Monday 12th March 2001 From- http://www.burrow-jp.com/library/original/03122001b.html Question from Steve Martin: How old are Professor Dumbledore and Professor Snape? JK Rowling: Dumbledore's about 150 years old (wizards have a longer life expectancy than us) and Muggles Snape's 35/6." eh, quick question. 'Muggles Snape's'? Does that mean he's a Muggle, or Muggle-born, or am I just reading it wrong? -Acire, who ran out of clever things to say here. From Audra1976 at aol.com Tue Oct 29 04:17:02 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 23:17:02 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who were the Potters? Message-ID: <1a6.b15a21e.2aef65be@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45893 In a message dated 28/10/2002 22:22:48 Eastern Standard Time, cureluv88 at hotmail.com writes: > And, of course, the other > obvious nagging question, why was Voldemort targetting them in the > first place? Either Dumbledore and his crew could understand why the > Potters would be targeted, and we the readers just don't know it yet, > or it was a mystery, in which case I'd think that Dumbledore would > wonder why the Potters would be such specific targets. > Voldemort persecuted muggles and"mudbloods" in favor of pure-blooded wizards. Lily was a muggle-born witch, so Lily and James were a "mixed marriage" and their son was a "mudblood." That's reason enough for Voldemort to target them as examples. There is also the theory that James Potter and Harry Potter were the heirs of Godric Gryffindor just as Voldemort is the heir of Salazar Slytherin, and that he wanted to be rid of the heir to another founder of Hogwarts (who disagreed with Slytherin about keeping the wizardbloodline "pure"). It would go along with the idea that Voldemort was really after James and Harry and only killed Lily (who would not be blood related to Gryffindor) because she got in his way. Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Oct 29 09:17:45 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 04:17:45 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How old is Dumbledore?? Message-ID: <62.27bdfa91.2aefac39@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45894 Acire: > Question from Steve Martin: How old are Professor Dumbledore and > Professor Snape? > > JK Rowling: Dumbledore's about 150 years old (wizards have a longer > life expectancy than us) and Muggles Snape's 35/6." > > eh, quick question. 'Muggles Snape's'? Does that mean he's a Muggle, > or Muggle-born, or am I just reading it wrong? > The quotation is incorrectly transcribed and therefore misleading! >>How old are Professor Dumbledore and Professor Snape? >>Dumbledore's about 150 years old... wizards have a longer life expectancy than us >>Muggles, Snape's 35 or 6. Taken from the official Comic Relief site transcript. http://www.comicrelief.com/harrysbooks/pages/transcript/shtml It's that old secondary source problem again! Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zoomphy at yahoo.com Tue Oct 29 08:17:10 2002 From: zoomphy at yahoo.com (Antoinette Marie) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:17:10 -0000 Subject: Heir Theory Question (Was: Who were the Potters?) In-Reply-To: <1a6.b15a21e.2aef65be@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45895 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Audra1976 at a... wrote: > There is also the theory that James Potter and Harry Potter were the heirs of > Godric Gryffindor just as Voldemort is the heir of Salazar Slytherin, and > that he wanted to be rid of the heir to another founder of Hogwarts (who > disagreed with Slytherin about keeping the wizardbloodline "pure"). It would > go along with the idea that Voldemort was really after James and Harry and > only killed Lily (who would not be blood related to Gryffindor) because she > got in his way. I have a question with regards to this theory: what about the two other heirs (Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff)? Assuming Harry is the direct descendent of Godric Gryffindor and Voldy went after the Potters in order to destroy the Gryffindor line, wouldn't that have been a major point of his campaign against the wizarding world? Enough people would've known about it, or at least concluded as much--especially if he'd managed to kill off the other heirs first. Now that I think about it, that may have clued in Lilly and James to go into hiding. I'm just thinking that if Harry is an Heir, maybe there are other Heirs wandering around too. If so, wouldn't they be just as much a target as he is? Of course, Voldy did kill off lots of families during his first reign of terror. So maybe this point is moot. K. From Audra1976 at aol.com Tue Oct 29 07:45:02 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 02:45:02 EST Subject: Some Thoughts On Some Stuff, etc. Message-ID: <79.ec07fa.2aef967e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45896 In a message dated 28/10/2002, foxmoth at qnet.com (Pippin) writes: > I think, from Snape's reaction to the Marauder's Map, that Snape > knew and had reported to Dumbledore that Voldemort had an > agent he called "Wormtail" as he does in the graveyard scene. > If Dumbledore shared this information with James, it could > account for James' certainty that one of his close friends was > I'm not sure what you mean by this information being shared with James. If Snape knew of a DE called "Wormtail" back when he was spying for Dumbledore and reported it, that information was never passed on to James. If it had been, James would have known for sure that Pettigrew was the spy, and might still be alive. If Dumbledore was aware of a DE called "Wormtail" he must not have known this was Pettigrew's nickname. However, if Snape recognized the name "Wormtail" when the Marauders' Map insulted him in PoA, that could have accounted for Snape telling Lupin the parchment was "plainly full of Dark Magic." I don't think that James knew for certain that one of his close friends was a spy, but at the time one had to be suspect of everyone. Neighbors were turned against neighbors. Friends sold out friends to Voldemort, willingly or under duress. You never knew what side someone was really on. It appears as if James might not have even trusted Dumbledore. The only person he trusted was Sirius, but the problem was that everyone, including Voldemort, knew that, which made Sirius a sitting duck as the Secret Keeper. Hence, the Pettigrew switcheroo. They were taking a chance that Pettigrew could be a Voldemort supporter, but they obviously thought it to be a very slim chance. They thought wrong. Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Tue Oct 29 07:56:34 2002 From: chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia=20Chrysshallie?=) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:56:34 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] More on Figg's protection In-Reply-To: <20021027162340.66806.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021029075634.93399.qmail@web10412.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45897 Anyone ever wonder about who Mrs. Figg is? Why is she willing to protect Harry? We are talking about a big sacrifice here. She has to live as a muggle, without the convenience of magic (not major ones anyway). And if she indeed is using aging potion, then its an even bigger sacrifice. After all, no woman wants to look any older than she actually is! I dont think even loyalty to Dumbledore can make anyone willing to do this, if there is no other personal reason. Could Mrs. Figg actually be a relative of Harry? His grandmother? Or perhaps his godmother? Could she be... Sirius girlfriend? ;) I based this upon the fact that in PoA (ch the knight bus), Harry saw Sirius in number 2 Magnolia Crescent. The details of this address may have something in it, otherwise Rowling would not mention it. Now, this is 2 streets away from Privet Dr. How did Sirius know that Harry was there? If he really wanted to get a glimpse of Harry, like he said, he should be in Privet Drive, right? I have a theory that he was visiting Mrs. Figg that night. When Mrs. Figg got wind that Harry has accidentally performed magic, and run away, she must have realised that the ministry squad would be there soon. She told Sirius to go, hence he transformed and as he went out of the house he saw Harry. Before he had the chance to tell Mrs. Figg that Harry was there, Harry was already picked up by the knight bus. I found it quite strange that Fudge was waiting for Harry in front of the Leaky Cauldron. Nobody could have told him that, giving that nobody in that bus knew who Harry really was. But if Sirius was indeed visiting Mrs. Figg, then after he saw Harry boarding the bus, he alerted her, and she then alerted the ministry, who guess immediately that there could be no other place Harry is going other than Diagon Alley. Then there is the question of how does Petunia know Mrs. Figg. Were she told by Dumbledore (in the letter) that Harry should be left with Mrs. Figg occasionally? One more interesting thought How do you think the old crowd would react, finding a wanted criminal on their doorstep, telling them that Voldemort has risen again? Vinnia http://careers.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Careers - 1,000's of jobs waiting online for you! From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Oct 29 17:09:00 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:09:00 -0000 Subject: Some Thoughts On Some Stuff, etc. In-Reply-To: <79.ec07fa.2aef967e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45898 > In a message dated 28/10/2002, foxmoth at q... (Pippin) writes: > > I think, from Snape's reaction to the Marauder's Map, that Snape knew and had reported to Dumbledore that Voldemort had an agent he called "Wormtail" as he does in the graveyard scene. If Dumbledore shared this information with James, it could account for James' certainty that one of his close friends was the spy. > > Audra: > I'm not sure what you mean by this information being shared with James. If Snape knew of a DE called "Wormtail" back when he was spying for Dumbledore and reported it, that information was never passed on to James. If it had been, James would have known for sure that Pettigrew was the spy, and might > still be alive. If Dumbledore was aware of a DE called "Wormtail" he must not have known this was Pettigrew's nickname. However, if Snape recognized > the name "Wormtail" when the Marauders' Map insulted him in PoA, that could have accounted for Snape telling Lupin the parchment was "plainly full of Dark Magic." > Me (Pippin) again: I agree that James did not tell Dumbledore the significance of the "Wormtail" name. James was still guarding the secret of the animagi, and could not share it with Dumbledore unless he was willing to implicate himself and his friends in some very serious crimes: not only illegal animagery but allowing a werewolf to roam free. But James could not be sure that the person using the name "Wormtail" was Peter Pettigrew, since at least two others knew that name. In fact, it seems that both he and Sirius dismissed the possibility out of hand, even after they knew that someone close to them was passing information to the Dark Lord. Perhaps letting on that the Fidelius Charm would be used was also a double-bluff. Voldemort was to assume that he had been allowed to discover that Fidelius would be used to conceal the Potters. Therefore he would suspect that it wasn't going to be used at all, and wouldn't hunt for the Secret Keeper. James and Sirius, for their part, probably regarded the "Wormtail" name as disinformation also: a bluff designed to make them suspect "weak, talentless" Peter Pettigrew instead of the real spy. Choosing Peter to be secret keeper must have seemed a stroke of genius: they picked the one person they knew Voldemort would think they couldn't trust. After the arrest of Sirius, Snape must have concluded that "Wormtail" was Sirius Black, which, as you say, explains his reaction to the map. Pippin who realizes this spy stuff gets awfully complicated From kkearney at students.miami.edu Tue Oct 29 18:52:14 2002 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:52:14 -0000 Subject: Imperious influenced by Polyjuice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45899 Naama wonderd: > I was thinking about Crouch!Moody. When he performed the Imperious Curse on Harry, Harry > heard *Moody's* voice in his head. *Not* Crouch Jr's. How can that be? From Harry and Ron's > experience with Polyjuice we know that you keep your own mind when you take the potion. It > is the appearance that changes, but your mind stays the same. Does Polyjuice affect > Imperious, then? Can a potion affect an Unforgiveable Curse? > > Thoughts? My thoughts: I don't see any reason why Polyjuice wouldn't effect this sort mental voice. Let's assume for the moment that when Harry heard Moody's voice, he wasn't misinterpreting the voice (although I feel Steve's arguments are perfectly plausible). We don't really know how this voice would be produced with a normal, unpolyjuiced curser. It obviously involves some sort of magic which takes a thought and transforms it into words for only the cursee to hear (as well as making said cursee want to obey the command). Now, Polyjuice seems to affect all parts of a persons body except the mind. A person's normal speaking voice does change. Assuming the curse draws its "voice" from anything other than the mind (such as vocal chords), it seems a legitimate assumption that it would steal a Polyjuiced voice. In general, I think it possible for a potion to interfere with a curse if it interferes with the magical mechanism of that curse. -Corinth From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 29 16:46:08 2002 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:46:08 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who were the Potters? In-Reply-To: <1a6.b15a21e.2aef65be@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021029104215.079c1d20@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45900 As the clock struck 11:17 PM 10/28/2002 -0500, Audra1976 at aol.com took pen in hand and wrote: >Voldemort persecuted muggles and"mudbloods" in favor of pure-blooded wizards. > Lily was a muggle-born witch, so Lily and James were a "mixed marriage" and >their son was a "mudblood." That's reason enough for Voldemort to target >them as examples. I thought that it was made pretty clear in COS that Harry was not considered a "mudblood". Why would anyone consider a non-pureblood to be the heir of Slytherin? Also, I do not think that we know whether Lily came from a magical family or not, do we? My impression in that past was that she was muggle-born, but Petunia does make a statement in PS about how happy their parents were when Lily turned out to be a witch. Jim From msbonsai at mninter.net Tue Oct 29 17:48:44 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:48:44 -0000 Subject: Someone please prove me wrong!! -Dates Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45901 Ok, am I understanding this correctly? Hogwarts starts every year on September 1st. They travel the Hogwarts Express, get sorted, have a big feast, then off to bed because classes start the next day. So far I think everyone is with me? Of course, they have weekends off . . . So why does every book seem to start that September 1st seems like a Sunday, and they're talking about their first classes as though they have them all in the same Monday through Friday, without a weekend between? Am I really screwing something up here? Julie From msbonsai at mninter.net Tue Oct 29 17:55:58 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:55:58 -0000 Subject: Further speculation on Dates in WW Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45902 Ok, I neglected to mention what I was thinking. Do the WW have their own calendar? One that would be more accurate? Possibly one that would explain why school always seems to start on a Monday? I know they say the way we keep time is off by a minute every so many years (don't remember exactly how many, sorry.) And then we have our leap years. With all our calendar systems, I could see a different system in the WW. However, doesn't Olivander's say something about having started in BC? Julie From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Oct 29 20:48:20 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:48:20 -0000 Subject: More on Figg's protection In-Reply-To: <20021029075634.93399.qmail@web10412.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45903 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Vinnia Chrysshallie Vinnia Chrysshallie wrote: > Anyone ever wonder about who Mrs. Figg is? Why is she > willing to protect Harry? ...snip... > > Could she be... Sirius' girlfriend? ;) bboy_mn in part: Sorry, I don't buy the young poly-juice Figg, but I can't prove my opinion any better than anyone else can prove theirs. I just don't see any need for Mrs. Figg to be anymore than she appears to be; an old witch looking after Harry. -end this part- > ...snip... > > I have a theory that he (Sirius) was visiting Mrs. Figg > that night. When Mrs. Figg got wind that Harry has > accidentally performed magic, and run away, ...snip... > > ...snip... I found it quite strange that Fudge was waiting > for Harry in front of the Leaky Cauldron. ...snip... > But if Sirius was indeed visiting Mrs. Figg, then after > he saw Harry boarding the bus, he alerted her, and she > then alerted the ministry, who guess immediately that > there could be no other place Harry is going other than > Diagon Alley. bboy_mn in part: Great theory, it certainly explains a lot. Really, I love this idea; it's simple and straight forward, doesn't require any great stretch of the imagination. I love theories like this that don't stretch too far. No wild conspiracy theories, etc, just a simple believable explanation. I could certainly see Mrs. Figg being Sirius' Aunt or maternal grandmother, or even just a really close friend of or possibly a faithful servant of the Black family. As far as people worrying about Mrs. Figg making this horrible sacrifice living as a muggle, never using magic, etc; I don't buy it. I don't see why she couldn't have been living a normal witchly life. It appears that most witches and wizards live among muggles. They may not live *with* them in the sense that they stay somewhat isolated, but they do live among them. Mr. Diggle lives near Kent; evidence of other in Yorksire and Dundee. Mr. Diggory live withing walking distance (long walking distance) of the Weasley family. The Weasley family lives just outside a small muggle village. There really is only one all magical village (Hogsmeade) so that must mean that there are pockets of magic people living within many muggle communities. So, I assume that Mrs. Figg lived a reasonably normal life. She went shopping in Diagon Alley, stopped at the Leaky Cauldron for a sherry, went to visit friends and had friends over for tea, etc. We certainly know that there are protections at the Dursley's beyong the presents of Mrs. Figg, so I see no reason for her to be confined to her house 24 hrs a day just to protect Harry. This brings up an interesting side topic. I wonder if all the other major cities in the UK have a magic city like Diagon Alley hidden inside them? I also wonder if Godrics Hollow was a magic city hidden inside another city or if it is just the name of a quaint village. We'll probably find out eventually. Not important, just a passing thought. -end this part- > > Then there is the question of how does Petunia know > Mrs. Figg. Were she told by Dumbledore (in the letter) > that Harry should be left with Mrs. Figg occasionally? > bboy_mn in part: You know how nosey Aunt Petunia is? If a new family was moving into the neightborhood, she would be the first one peaking over the fence and around the corner to find out what was going on. Mrs. Figg could have casually introduce herself. Said that she noticed that the Dursely's had two fine boys and as it gets lonely living a lone, she would be glad to babysit sometime. Of course, the Dursleys would never trust Dudley into the care of some mad old lady, but they wouldn't care about Harry, and that's exactly what Mrs. Figg was counting on. -end this part- > One more interesting thought How do you think the > `old crowd' would react, finding a wanted criminal on > their doorstep, telling them that Voldemort has risen > again? > > Vinnia > bboy_mn speculates: A good question. My best guess is that after Prisoner of Azkaban, Dumbledore made other trusted people he knows aware that Sirius was innocent. Since circumstances had force Sirius to go back into hiding, Dumbledore my have thought that he could use all the allies he could get. Dumbledore may have informed his network of friends that if they should encounter Sirius, that they should trust him and they should give him whatever assistance they could. Just an opinion. -End bboy_mn- From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Oct 29 20:51:17 2002 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Anne) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:51:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Thoughts on: re(TBAY)Operative!Arthur, 1st Prediction, Fudge at L.C. In-Reply-To: <1035918253.11744.4279.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021029205117.39794.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45904 As I have been catching up on a week's worth of posts, a few thoughts have struck me about them, so I thought I'd celebrate coming off moderated status with this post. ------------------------------------------------------ This thought concerns Arthur Weasley's part in fighting dark wizards, so I may just send it in a owl to Cindy out on the TBAY! My idea is that many wizards and witches were very involved in the struggle against Voldemort, not just Aurors and Unspeakables (and I actually have a completely different idea for Uspeakables which I will get into in a bit). Dumbledore's "old crowd", which included the Weasleys, are not Aurors, but just decent wizards fighting evil. At this time, Arthur does work at the Ministry in some capacity. Based on the unforgivable curses lesson, I could certainly see that JKR could be hinting that he was a victim of Imperious as a form of foreshadowing. Even though I am not really sure that Arthur was put under Imperious, I do like the theory, and came up with this scenario: Arthur Weasley, a Ministry official and ally of Dumbledore, falls under the Imperious Curse. He is found out, rescued and cleared of wrongdoing. By now, Fudge is MoM and shunts him off into the Misuse of M.A. Department, saying, "Sorry, old boy, but you see how it is -- I can't have an minister in an important department who is known to have done (whatever), even if we at the MoM have full confidence in your innocence. Think how it would look to the wizard-on-the-street!" So Arthur begins his new job. But, Dumbledore and he see a new opportunity here. Arthur, while certainly doing the work his new job requires, is now free to conduct raids on wizard houses to look for evidence of dark magic on the pretext of merely looking for biting teacups and shrinking keys! This explains his sometimes late hours. My feeling is that he is doing this with the OK from a Cornelius Fudge who has so far been on the good side. (It will be Fudge choosing _what is easy_ rather than _what is good_ or _what is evil_ which is going to cause so much trouble after the return of Voldemort.) It may also help to explain his dual persona within the ministry: respected on the one hand by many, yet somehow held back and not well-paid. So we have an Operative!Arthur who is neither an Auror nor an Uspeakable, but nicely placed to find out something about who is on which side, at least for a while. As for the role of Unspeakables, I do not assume they are the espionage arm of the ministry. What if they were into something completely different, like top secret, highly dangerous magical research? Maybe it was they who produced veritaserum? ------------------------------------------------------ A quick thought on the first prediction involves the question of Prof. Trelawney's age. Do we have any indication of how old that may be? If she was 75 or 80, she would not be so old by wizard standards, and she could have been teaching when Tom Riddle was at Hogwarts. Perhaps she made her first prediction in his hearing when he had already learned enough to recognize it for what it was? But in that case, Dumbledore would only have heard of it if there was someone else who could have reported it to him... ------------------------------------------------------ Finally, as to the question of how Fudge could have been waiting for Harry at the Leaky Cauldron after Harry ran away from Privet Drive, so what's the big deal? How many places would Harry have gone, anyway? Hogwarts? Probably too far, but if Dumbledore wasn't there already so close to the start of term, he could certainly arrange for someone to look out for Harry there. The Burrow? Maybe, if Harry could find it, so the Weasleys were undoubtedly alerted. This leaves the Leaky Cauldron as the only other reasonable place for Harry to go. I believe Fudge must have ordered ministry wizards out to search the countryside for Harry and then gone straight to the most likely place for Harry to turn up, and waited there. So I'll stop here, see if there are any thoughts, and send off my owl to Cindy. I'd hate to just go and disturb her in person, in case she's not feeling up to having visitors... __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Oct 29 21:06:29 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:06:29 -0000 Subject: FILK: Riddle's Giant Basilisk Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45905 Riddle's Giant Basilisk A filk by Pippin To the tune of Maxwell's Silver Hammer by The Beatles For fellow Beatles filkers Gail and CMC Ginny trustfully writing in her diary 'I feel so alone Harry Potter never will notice me-oh.' Riddle cleverly playing on naivety Took her for his own Late nights all alone with the inkwell-oh oh. But as she shared her pitiful woes He crept into her mind Ssss! Ssss! Riddle's giant Basilisk Hiding in its lair Ssss! Ssss! Riddle's giant Basilisk No one knows it's there Back in school again Harry breaks a rule again So he gets employed Mailing testimonial pictures, oh oh Cold voice in his ear, words that no one else can hear Echo in the void Ron does not perceive and he tells him so-- But on the way from Nick's Deathday Ball There's writing on the wall. Ssss! Ssss! Riddle's giant basilisk Left a message there Ssss! Ssss! Riddle's giant basilisk Enemies, beware! Herm and 'Nelope Searching in the library Hermi gets a clue She writes "pipes" on one of the pages, oo-oooh Rushing through the corridor Going to find Dumbledore, he'll know what to do To depose the King of the Serpents, oo-ooh. But though they check each bend in the mirror A noise comes from behind Ssss! Ssss! Riddle's giant Basilisk In the looking glass Ssss! Ssss! Riddle's giant Basilisk Petrified our lass. Sliding down the sink Riddle finally tips the wink Harry gets annoyed But he is by Dumbledore's phoenix bouy-oy-oy-oyed There's a fatal bite But the phoenix puts him right Riddle just forgot Phoenix tears have powers of healing, oy-oy-oy-oy And as he's getting ready to gloat The diary's destroyed Harry slew the giant basilisk Laid it in the dust And the fang of Riddle's basilisk through the diary thrust He frees Dobby too! From weavingon at earthlink.net Tue Oct 29 20:59:53 2002 From: weavingon at earthlink.net (weavingon) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:59:53 -0000 Subject: Imperious influenced by Polyjuice In-Reply-To: <20021028181208.61804.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45906 Barb wrote: > Are you implying that Polyjuice does anything but affect a person's outward appearance? I do not believe it does anything beyond this, based on the fact that Harry and Ron do not get Crabbe and Goyle's brains when they transform themselves (and, the fur on the face notwithstanding, Hermione doesn't get the brain of a cat). If they were to have some "telepathic" link with Malfoy's sidekicks, they could have found the Slytherin common room with no problem. Instead, they almost ran out of time wandering around the dungeons. in reply: I didn't mean to imply that Polyjuice would cause someone to have the brain of whomever or whatever they are impersonating. I meant that if you spoke in the voice of the person you are impersonating...if you appeared to sound as well as look like them, then that would perhaps hold true in the case of mental suggestion as well as audible speech. ~ Magdalen "Alas, earwax." From adatole at yahoo.com Tue Oct 29 21:17:47 2002 From: adatole at yahoo.com (Leon Adato) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:17:47 -0500 Subject: HP previews on Oprah *right now* In-Reply-To: <20021029205117.39794.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45907 Just FYI, Oprah is showing previews of the next movie that must not be named, plus interviews with the 3 leads. Showing 4:00pm USA eastern standard time. Leon Adato ------------------- My library / Was dukedom large enough. -William Shakespeare, poet and dramatist (1564-1616) email: adatole at yahoo.com phone: (440) 542-9659 fax: (305) 832-2818 -----Original Message----- From: Anne [mailto:annemehr at yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 3:51 PM To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Thoughts on: re(TBAY)Operative!Arthur, 1st Prediction, Fudge at L.C. As I have been catching up on a week's worth of posts, a few thoughts have struck me about them, so I thought I'd celebrate coming off moderated status with this post. ------------------------------------------------------ This thought concerns Arthur Weasley's part in fighting dark wizards, so I may just send it in a owl to Cindy out on the TBAY! My idea is that many wizards and witches were very involved in the struggle against Voldemort, not just Aurors and Unspeakables (and I actually have a completely different idea for Uspeakables which I will get into in a bit). Dumbledore's "old crowd", which included the Weasleys, are not Aurors, but just decent wizards fighting evil. At this time, Arthur does work at the Ministry in some capacity. Based on the unforgivable curses lesson, I could certainly see that JKR could be hinting that he was a victim of Imperious as a form of foreshadowing. Even though I am not really sure that Arthur was put under Imperious, I do like the theory, and came up with this scenario: Arthur Weasley, a Ministry official and ally of Dumbledore, falls under the Imperious Curse. He is found out, rescued and cleared of wrongdoing. By now, Fudge is MoM and shunts him off into the Misuse of M.A. Department, saying, "Sorry, old boy, but you see how it is -- I can't have an minister in an important department who is known to have done (whatever), even if we at the MoM have full confidence in your innocence. Think how it would look to the wizard-on-the-street!" So Arthur begins his new job. But, Dumbledore and he see a new opportunity here. Arthur, while certainly doing the work his new job requires, is now free to conduct raids on wizard houses to look for evidence of dark magic on the pretext of merely looking for biting teacups and shrinking keys! This explains his sometimes late hours. My feeling is that he is doing this with the OK from a Cornelius Fudge who has so far been on the good side. (It will be Fudge choosing _what is easy_ rather than _what is good_ or _what is evil_ which is going to cause so much trouble after the return of Voldemort.) It may also help to explain his dual persona within the ministry: respected on the one hand by many, yet somehow held back and not well-paid. So we have an Operative!Arthur who is neither an Auror nor an Uspeakable, but nicely placed to find out something about who is on which side, at least for a while. As for the role of Unspeakables, I do not assume they are the espionage arm of the ministry. What if they were into something completely different, like top secret, highly dangerous magical research? Maybe it was they who produced veritaserum? ------------------------------------------------------ A quick thought on the first prediction involves the question of Prof. Trelawney's age. Do we have any indication of how old that may be? If she was 75 or 80, she would not be so old by wizard standards, and she could have been teaching when Tom Riddle was at Hogwarts. Perhaps she made her first prediction in his hearing when he had already learned enough to recognize it for what it was? But in that case, Dumbledore would only have heard of it if there was someone else who could have reported it to him... ------------------------------------------------------ Finally, as to the question of how Fudge could have been waiting for Harry at the Leaky Cauldron after Harry ran away from Privet Drive, so what's the big deal? How many places would Harry have gone, anyway? Hogwarts? Probably too far, but if Dumbledore wasn't there already so close to the start of term, he could certainly arrange for someone to look out for Harry there. The Burrow? Maybe, if Harry could find it, so the Weasleys were undoubtedly alerted. This leaves the Leaky Cauldron as the only other reasonable place for Harry to go. I believe Fudge must have ordered ministry wizards out to search the countryside for Harry and then gone straight to the most likely place for Harry to turn up, and waited there. So I'll stop here, see if there are any thoughts, and send off my owl to Cindy. I'd hate to just go and disturb her in person, in case she's not feeling up to having visitors... __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Tue Oct 29 21:35:02 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:35:02 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Further speculation on Dates in WW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1102561711.20021029133502@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45908 Tuesday, October 29, 2002, 9:55:58 AM, jastrangfeld wrote: j> Ok, I neglected to mention what I was thinking. Do the WW have their j> own calendar? One that would be more accurate? Possibly one that j> would explain why school always seems to start on a Monday? I know j> they say the way we keep time is off by a minute every so many years j> (don't remember exactly how many, sorry.) And then we have our leap j> years. With all our calendar systems, I could see a different system j> in the WW. However, doesn't Olivander's say something about having j> started in BC? I have speculated in the past that perhaps the WW is still on the Julian Calendar. (The Muggles switched over to the Gregorian Calendar in the 16th century.) Perhaps the WW Calendar is "more accurate" in the sense that Christ really was born in the year 1 CWE (Current Wizarding Era) -- Most scholars think the Gregorian Calendar is off by a few years. In any case, these things might iron out some current problems like Dudley's anachronistic Playstation, and Wormtail's escape happening on a night that (on the Lexicon-accepted timeline) was not anything near to a Full Moon. In other words, yes, Harry was born in 1981... 1981 CWE ... But that may have been, say, AD 1984. (This date works for making the Playstation and the Full Moon work.) -- Dave From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue Oct 29 21:54:45 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:54:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Further speculation on Dates in WW In-Reply-To: <1102561711.20021029133502@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20021029215445.30360.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45909 I think we have to remind ourselves that there are some things that are just not important to JKR, and dates are a very big something about which she doesn't seem to give a fig. Based on CoS and the chapter about Nick's Deathday party, for instance, it would seem that Harry was born on July 31, 1980. However, this would put his eleventh birthday on a different day of the week than that indicated in the first book. She has Ginny saying she has wanted to go to Hogwarts since Bill went, rather than Percy, who actually started school after she was somewhat sentient, and, as previously noted, the Shrieking Shack incident in PoA does not coincide with a full moon in the real world. The number of Quidditch World Cups that have occurred and the year that it started also do not add up mathematically. I find it highly unlikely that JKR has the wizarding world living on some other calendar. They seem to celebrate Christmas and New Year and Easter right along with the rest of Great Britain. To bother figuring out which calendar would allow the dates in the Potterverse jibe with ours is, quite frankly, a huge waste of time, IMO. JKR doesn't care and neither should we. Let's remember that it's fiction, and fiction written by someone who is not really on speaking terms with numbers. If JKR wants all school terms (the actual classes) to begin on Monday, September 2, that's her prerogative as an artist. I'm not going to complain as long as I eventually have books 5, 6 and 7 to read. --Barb Dave Hardenbrook wrote: Tuesday, October 29, 2002, 9:55:58 AM, jastrangfeld wrote: j> Ok, I neglected to mention what I was thinking. Do the WW have their j> own calendar? One that would be more accurate? Possibly one that j> would explain why school always seems to start on a Monday? I know j> they say the way we keep time is off by a minute every so many years j> (don't remember exactly how many, sorry.) And then we have our leap j> years. With all our calendar systems, I could see a different system j> in the WW. However, doesn't Olivander's say something about having j> started in BC? I have speculated in the past that perhaps the WW is still on the Julian Calendar. (The Muggles switched over to the Gregorian Calendar in the 16th century.) Perhaps the WW Calendar is "more accurate" in the sense that Christ really was born in the year 1 CWE (Current Wizarding Era) -- Most scholars think the Gregorian Calendar is off by a few years. In any case, these things might iron out some current problems like Dudley's anachronistic Playstation, and Wormtail's escape happening on a night that (on the Lexicon-accepted timeline) was not anything near to a Full Moon. In other words, yes, Harry was born in 1981... 1981 CWE ... But that may have been, say, AD 1984. (This date works for making the Playstation and the Full Moon work.) -- Dave Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 29 21:40:45 2002 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:40:45 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Classist Hogwarts (was ... was .... was...) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021019043643.009be100@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021029151144.04d33520@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45910 Just now getting around to replying to this. Jim As the clock struck 04:37 AM 10/19/2002 +0100, GulPlum took pen in hand and wrote: >At 17:21 18/10/02 -0500, James P. Robinson III wrote: > > >This is my first post here. I will try not to break too many rules. Go > >gently with me. > >Welcome aboard! Watch the hurricane, though! (current TBAY-related >reference, if you were wondering). :-) Thank you. > >Not that "boarding school" doesn't imply some level of elitism; it does. > >As an alumnus of a particularly un-elitist boarding school, I beg to differ >on the absolute applicability of that statement. :-) However, in canon, >Hogwarts is NEVER referred to as a "boarding school". OK, it is a boarding >school, as the pupils live on campus, but this isn't necessarily an >indication of elitism, but of practicality. For one thing, the pupils have >lessons late at night (e.g. astronomy). For another, the wizarding >community appears quite thinly distributed around the country, and thus it >makes sense to have them all together so that they can get to know each >socially, not just strictly academically. On top of that, as magic is >potentially very dangerous, it helps for the kids to be in a controlled >environment while they are learning. I do not see how any of the above, while certainly true, nullifies the fact that Hogwarts is a boarding school and what would be called a public school in the UK and a prep school in the US. I still maintain that, rightly or wrongly, there is a general association of elitism with such school. I do not claim that every boarding school is an elite institution. > >But Ron Weasley's presence at Hogwarts, to me, reinforces that elitism > rather > >than negating it. Ron is poor, certainly, but that has no impact on his > >class. In fact, I would argue that Ron is at Hogwarts primarily because of > >his class. He is from an old family, is a pure-bred, is a child of > >Hogwarts alumni, speaks with a "good" accent (cf. Stan Shunpike), but seems > >to have only meager magical ability. Would he have a place at Hogwarts > >aside from the circumstances of his birth? > >I apologise for using the same arguments over and over again, but I really >can't stress this enough: what about Black Dean Thomas or Lee Jordan, Neither of these are unequivocally black in the UK edition. I presume making Dean black was an interpolation of the editors at Scholastic. > the >self-confessed almost-Squib Neville Longbottom, Neville's presence at Hogwarts is, I maintain, evidence of a classist element in the institution. Neville does appear to be a near-squib, so why is he at Hogwarts at all? Because he is "One of Our Kind". He is from a good wizarding family, a pureblood and his parents were socially popular in the WW. Neville's principal qualification to be at Hogwarts is his background not his ability. > the Muggle-born Hermione >Granger or the Muggle milkman's kids the Creevey brothers, etc., etc.? Muggles at Hogwarts seem to fall into the "scholarship boys" category. > Each >of these fit into categories which by your rationale above would not give >them a place at Hogwarts. I do not understand this statement at all. Ron and Neville are present at Hogwarts because of their class. My argument is not that every Hogwarts student is admitted on account of his/her class. By that standard, Eton and Choate would be non-elitist schools. My argument is that class does have a role in Hogwarts admission. It is certainly not the only factor. I would further that by saying that I believe Hogwarts turns out adults prepared to enter, at least, an upper middle WW class (e.g., the MoM rather than the Knight Bus). In my mind, this does make Hogwarts elite. Let's also remember that, at least at one time, Lucius Malfoy dominated the Hogwarts Board of Governors. Would he have had anything to do with a non-elite institution? >As for Ron's "meagre" magical ability, I leave the Ron-philes to take you >task. :-) Suffice to say, that whilst his grades don't appear to be >particularly impressive, he's by no means at the bottom of his year. Any >opinion of Ron's limited abilities is primarily his own, not other people's. This is simply not my impression from the books. He seems to consistently have trouble with his classes, but perhaps it is just the juxtaposition with Hermione that makes him look backwards. >And as for Stan Shunpike, I've just made my thoughts clear in another thread. How you view Stan seems to come down to whether you think he was at Hogwarts or not. There does not appear to be any unequivocal canon either way. In my head (no cracks please), it is inconceivable that he is an Hogwarts alumnus, but I cannot prove it. I guess that is just a statement about me. > >I believe this could just as easily point to a basically elitist school > >system with a certain number of scholarship cases (what would have once > >been called "charity boys") thrown in. Ron Weasley and Neville Longbottom > >may be good examples of students given a place at Hogwarts because of > >their class (as in the circumstances of their birth) and in spite of their > >meager or even negligible magical talent. I agree that wealth seems to > >play no part in selection for > >Hogwarts. I just think wealth is irrelevant to class standing. > >So, going by what you said in the bit I excised, race comes close to being >important. Hmm. I don't believe I said anything about race. I am not even sure that the WW upper class is racially homogenous. > Hogwarts accepts half-bloods and Muggle-borns, and it accepts >non-WASPs. Clearly it does. It also accepts purebloods primarily from "good" families. And it also accepts students from "good" families with otherwise questionable qualifications. >Almost everyone in Harry's year (let's face it, these are the pupils we >know best and by whom we can best judge Hogwarts' acceptance principles), >has some kind of foible of birth which puts them into a category which >would prejudice them. Whichever measure of "class" one wishes to use as a >benchmark, *someone* in Harry's year fails it. This has been refuted in another post. The non-muggle students appear to come disproportionately from "good" families. > To say that each of these >pupils has been granted a place on exceptional grounds for whatever reason >is, frankly, insulting, both to them, and to JKR. :-) Within the storyline, >and (meta-textually) as an indication of the "moral" JKR is trying to put >across in the books, it quite simply doesn't make sense. I do not see any necessary conflict, except in the sense that the "moral" as you say ( I am a little uncomfortable with that myself) of self-worth, individual choice, value of individual efforts and abilities, etc. only shows up at all if there is some contrary background. Otherwise, that "moral" ideal would simply be the norm. Likewise, that fact that Hogwarts is elite adds, for me at least, a note of realism (or should I say magical realism ;> ). It does not take away from Hogwarts' wonderfulness or the "moral" message, if you go in for that sort of thing, it adds to it. Jim > From Audra1976 at aol.com Tue Oct 29 22:09:18 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:09:18 EST Subject: Animagi and Alkatraz Alzcaban Message-ID: <66.2954f1e4.2af0610e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45911 Melody: > Hey, I'm all for covering Sirius. Who isn't? Alright, let's see how much we can agree on here, Melody: If it was just an emotion shield, then the dementors could still feel a body slip out the prison front door. They can still sense the animal emotions. But since they thought he was weak and insane, they could not understand how a weak, insane prisoner could get out. Me: I say the key quote from Sirius is "It's so much harder for them to sense animal emotions that they were confused." By transforming into a dog, Sirius was able to get his feelings on an animal wavelength that was "under the Dementors' radar," so to speak. The Dementors didn't get suspicious. They assumed that Sirius was still human, but just didn't have enough sense left to form a happy thought, therefore they could no longer feed on him, and he was very low on their sensors, so much so that the Dementor didn't even sense him leaving. I think we agree up to this point. The argument is whether the brain physically transforms to the animal's or remains human. Indulge me in my case once more... Melody: > Black was able to convince the dementors he was not of > sound mind, so they assumed he was no threat. By that deception, he > was able to sneak out. Since the dementors cannot see, they did not > know a prisoner left. Me: Okay, "convince the Dementors he was not of sound mind," you say? As I see it, this view can only jive with your shrunken human brain theory in one of two ways. 1.) Sirius actively exercised control over his emotions to purposely fool the Dementors into perceiving him as unsound, or 2.) there is something about the dog body that filters the emotions differently, as in possibly Amanda's Vatican-inspired light-through-a-colored-glass idea. Either of these would cover Sirius's explanation, and well as McGonagall and Skeeter's capabilities while transformed, so I can see now how the shrunken human brain theory coukd be plausible. I just still don't subscribe to it. One reason is that the actual shape of different animals' skulls wouldn't conform to the proportions of the human brain, which, for one thing, has a much larger forebrain than most animals. The shrinky-dink brain would have to shrink even smaller in size to fit proportionally in the animal skull, and jostling around at strange angles. I'm not even getting into the problems of the rest of the nervous system that would have to go along with the brain. A second reason (and I'm sorry I don't remember who it was that brought this up already) is that having a shrunken human brain, the Animagus would miss out on some great advantages of some animals' brains--extraordinarily developed senses of smell, sight, hearing, balance, etc. These are not only perks, but in most cases essential brain functions to be able to survive as that animal. Melody: > I just get caught on the mechanics of how a human mind can be concealed and > yet also used behind an animal mind. Mmmm...magic? ;) ...I'm relying on mind/brain duality. In my concept, the "mind" is an ethereal substance, separate, but connected the physical "brain." Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 29 22:13:05 2002 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:13:05 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Further speculation on Dates in WW In-Reply-To: <20021029215445.30360.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1102561711.20021029133502@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021029160416.04e82a80@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45912 This is an interesting post in that it seems to point up a significant gulf between (literary critical and otherwise) approaches to the HP books and canon. My point of view on this issue is pretty much diametrically opposed to Barb's, and I apologize in advance if I am a little brusque. Jim As the clock struck 01:54 PM 10/29/2002 -0800, Barb took pen in hand and wrote: >I think we have to remind ourselves that there are some things that are >just not important to JKR, Why? What does an issue's relevant importance to JKR have to do with our interpretation of canon? Why should it dampen speculation? > and dates are a very big something about which she doesn't seem to give > a fig. Based on CoS and the chapter about Nick's Deathday party, for > instance, it would seem that Harry was born on July 31, 1980. However, > this would put his eleventh birthday on a different day of the week than > that indicated in the first book. She has Ginny saying she has wanted to > go to Hogwarts since Bill went, rather than Percy, who actually started > school after she was somewhat sentient, and, as previously noted, the > Shrieking Shack incident in PoA does not coincide with a full moon in the > real world. The number of Quidditch World Cups that have occurred and > the year that it started also do not add up mathematically. These apparent inconsistencies are a large part of what makes the date/time/calendar questions interesting. >I find it highly unlikely that JKR has the wizarding world living on some >other calendar. A quibble, perhaps highlighting different approaches: IMO, the question may be whether or not the WW is on some sort of alternate calendar. What JKR thinks about it or intends is only very tangentially relevant and never determinative. > They seem to celebrate Christmas and New Year and Easter right along > with the rest of Great Britain. To bother figuring out which calendar > would allow the dates in the Potterverse jibe with ours is, quite > frankly, a huge waste of time, IMO. JKR doesn't care and neither should we. But why should JKR's views have ANYTHING to do with our interpretations, interests, obsessions, etc. regarding the works? I see no connection. > From SaalsG at cni-usa.com Tue Oct 29 22:54:25 2002 From: SaalsG at cni-usa.com (Grace Saalsaa) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:54:25 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Further speculation on Dates in WW References: <20021029215445.30360.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007b01c27f9e$221ef650$a94053d1@DJF30D11> No: HPFGUIDX 45913 From: Barb: I think we have to remind ourselves that there are some things that are just not important to JKR, and dates are a very big something about which she doesn't seem to give a fig. Based on CoS and the chapter about Nick's Deathday party, for instance, it would seem that Harry was born on July 31, 1980. However, this would put his eleventh birthday on a different day of the week than that indicated in the first book. She has Ginny saying she has wanted to go to Hogwarts since Bill went, rather than Percy, who actually started school after she was somewhat sentient, .........// sorry, major snip there but this was the only part of the post that I was thinking about. Me: I have a sister that is 18 years younger than myself. One thing about little kids, they often use the most convenient word rather than the word that they really meant. It might be a word that is almost right - but then again... not quite. Ginny saying she has wanted to go to Hogwarts *since* Bill went.... Maybe what Ginny really meant to say was she has always wanted to go to Hogwarts *because* Bill went. Bill could be her favorite brother and he talked about Hogworts with her. *Since* Bill went there and had a great time, she has wanted to go there too. Grace From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 29 23:28:33 2002 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:28:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Beatles Filks / Flints In-Reply-To: <1035928918.3238.23734.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021029232833.92480.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45914 Hello!! As a huge Beatles fan myself, i have to say to all the filk writers that you're amazing!! I'm having a blast singing along your lyrics. And this brings my question: is there any database of all the filks posted in list? I'd love to go and check all the other Beatles/Potter tunes. And another question: where can i find a list of all the accepted flints? I remember once reading i wanted to check something up before i posted it, but i couldn't find what flints had been already discovered. Back to work... Maria __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From gandharvika at hotmail.com Wed Oct 30 00:14:24 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 00:14:24 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Fleur Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45915 Fleur (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Michelle_ by the Beatles) Listen to the original at: http://beatleschile.iespana.es/beatleschile/real.htm Scene: Ron is in alone in his dorm room at Hogwarts...he is getting up the nerve to ask Fleur to the Yule Ball. To try and impress her, Ron has borrowed from the library an English-French dictionary. Ron: Fleur Delacour I hope she won't think I'm immature. Oh, Fleur Fleur Delacour Allez s'il vous plat la boule avec moi? Boule avec moi? I want to I want to I want to Humbly request if you'll Go out with me this Yule Please say, "Yes" To my request To go to the ball. Fleur Delacour Allez s'il vous plat la boule avec moi? Boule avec moi? I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping That it's not a faux pas To ask out a Veela I know I'm young, but I'm just flung Head over heels I love her Oh Fleur, Oh Fleur, Oh Fleur My heart is in your hands I hope you understand 'Cause when I speak I feel my feet Are stuck in my mouth Fleur Delacour Allez s'il vous plat la boule avec moi? Boule avec moi? I will say these words then say a prayer That she won't decline Oh, Fleur. -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access for only $21.95/month. Try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp From john at queerasjohn.com Wed Oct 30 00:15:26 2002 From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 00:15:26 +0000 Subject: ADMIN: Elves and Goats and Cars, Oh My! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45916 *John descends from the Mod Tower in top hat and red tails a la Zigler from Moulin Rouge, humming "Voulez-vous modder avec moi"* Hello cherubs, Just a quick but exciting note from all of us here in the Mod Tower. We're happy to announce the recent enslavement...er...arrival of Porphyria (Ashey Elf) and Marina (Filky Elf) to the ranks of the HPFGU List Elves. They're working slavishly...er...happily away, greeting new members and approving messages. Remember, please do *not* hand the Elves any form of clothing! We in the Mod Tower have some changes of our own to announce too. Aberforth's Goat has moved to pastures new (does that joke ever get old? -Ed.) and we wish him all the best as he butts heads with other thinkers on matters other than Harry Potter. However, due to recent quota restrictions imposed by the Department of International Magical Cooperation, we've had to dredge up another animagus to join our ranks. Fortunately, Catherine had a spare set of wheel-clamps and a towtruck handy, and we've impounded the Flying Ford Anglia once again. Can I just point out how exceedingly difficult it is to maneuver a car up a spiral staircase? Seriously, though, we're sad that Mike's had to step down due to RL issues, but happy that Neil has agreed to rejoin us. In other news, the www.hpfgu.org.uk site is down temporarily because of DNS direction issues. We hope to have it back up and running very shortly. In the meantime, you can access the Files Section via http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/Files. If you have any questions or concerns, please don't hesitate to contact the mods at mods at hpfgu.org.uk -- our email is still working, thank goodness! *wanders off singing "Meet Me In The Mod Room"* --QAJ, Moderator With Rock #47 ______________________________________ Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com www.queerasjohn.com || AIM & YM @ QueerAsJohn "There's nowt as queer as folk." --English proverb ______________________________________ From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Oct 30 00:25:36 2002 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:25:36 -0800 Subject: Two Schools of Thought (was: Further speculation on Dates in WW) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021029160416.04e82a80@popd.ix.netcom.com> References: <1102561711.20021029133502@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20021029160416.04e82a80@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <13312796913.20021029162536@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45917 Tuesday, October 29, 2002, 2:13:05 PM, James P. Robinson III wrote: JPRI> This is an interesting post in that it seems to point up a significant gulf JPRI> between (literary critical and otherwise) approaches to the HP books and JPRI> canon. My point of view on this issue is pretty much diametrically opposed JPRI> to Barb's, and I apologize in advance if I am a little brusque. This is the two major schools of thought on any fan list, I think. I'm on a _Red Dwarf_ (British sci-fi comedy series) list, and I run a list about the Oz books, and the fundamental two camps are the same on all: "It's fiction, and ironing out continuity issues is a waste of time" vs. "Somewhere, in some parallel universe, all this is real, and it's a fun excercise to try to figure out how things work in that universe for which the 'Canon' that we have offers contradictory evidence, or doesn't address at all." -- Dave From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Wed Oct 30 00:43:22 2002 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:43:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Further speculation on Dates in WW In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021029160416.04e82a80@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20021030004322.81124.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45918 I wrote: They seem to celebrate Christmas and New Year and Easter right along with the rest of Great Britain. To bother figuring out which calendar would allow the dates in the Potterverse jibe with ours is, quite frankly, a huge waste of time, IMO. JKR doesn't care and neither should we. Then James P. Robinson III wrote: But why should JKR's views have ANYTHING to do with our interpretations, interests, obsessions, etc. regarding the works? I see no connection. Me: I'm as capable as anyone else of trying to reconcile something that seems irreconcilable. I worked out that there are times during the lunar year when the moon isn't officially full until after it rises, which would make it possible for Remus Lupin to be out on the night of an apparently full moon, but not transform into a werewolf right away, since the sun, moon and earth weren't in the precise position yet for the moon to be considered truly "full" (even though, in the real world, there wasn't a full moon on the night in question--which is another bit of artistic license). Now, this doesn't seem to be what JKR did. I think it is either a true Flint for Remus not to transform until the moon was revealed by a shifting cloud, or else she was just rewriting werewolf lore (she also rewrote werewolf lore with the part about animals not being in danger from werewolves; legends are full of werewolves killing farm animals). Still, the research I did concerning the moon does make it possible for the shifting cloud to reveal a moon that was suddenly full, when it had not been before, therefore making that part of PoA slightly more plausible and in tune with existing werewolf legend, even though that may not have been in JKR's mind originally. Also, when dealing with myths and legends in a story like this, it is possible to rewrite those myths and legends to suit your story. There is no requirement that JKR's werewolves behave like any other werewolves that have graced the pages of literature. She has freedom to do as she likes. There are also a variety of things we speculate on which JKR HAS no doubt thought about in great depth, such as who the Death Eaters are, what Trelawney's first prediction was, and how Harry will eventually defeat Voldemort. I expect to find out about all of these things by the last page of book seven. However, since it is painfully obvious that JKR has NOT expended any thought on the first day of term perhaps falling on different days of the week in different years, I personally believe it to be a waste of time to speculate on a wizarding calendar which would make this possible, when this is obviously just another use of artistic license. She likes the consistency, clearly. Perhaps if she had to do it over, she'd do as many authors in the past have and wouldn't specify a death date for Nick, but just designate it as 14__ . Then we and future generations of readers could always imagine Harry going to school at any time, instead of his being rooted to a certain era. I think this would have been wiser, frankly, as she would be sticking to what she does best, spinning wonderful stories, rather than trying to figure out what day of the week someone born July 31, 1980 would be turning eleven. I have no problem with trying to work out many things that she actually seems to have thought about. However, you will never be able to completely reconcile the dates in the Potterverse because there is just no rhyme or reason to them. Even Chaos Theory wouldn't help with the dates. It's less predictible than chaos. JKR never thought people would analyze to the extent that they have (she's said as much) and I believe that it is clear that she never intended the dates to stand up under such intense scrutiny. There is absolutely no evidence in canon that wizards don't use a standard modern calendar. Aside from the fact that making up calendars still won't get her muddled figures to work out no matter how long you plug away at it, there's also just no support in canon for such a position. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Oct 30 00:50:46 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 00:50:46 -0000 Subject: Blood Confusion: was- Who ...Potters? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021029104215.079c1d20@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45919 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "James P. Robinson III" wrote: > As the clock struck 11:17 PM 10/28/2002 -0500, Audra1976 at a... took pen in hand and wrote: > >Voldemort persecuted muggles and"mudbloods" in favor of pure-blooded > > wizards. Lily was a muggle-born witch, so Lily and James were a > "mixed marriage" and their son was a "mudblood." That's reason > enough for Voldemort to target them as examples. Jim replied: > > I thought that it was made pretty clear in COS that Harry was not > considered a "mudblood". ...snip... My impression in that past was > that she was muggle-born, ...snip... > > Jim bboy_mn adds: Boy this whole muggle/mudblood/pure-blood thing is confusing. I'm not saying I'm right, but here is my take on the subject. Pure-Blood = in the truest sense is someone who can trace their magical heritage back through infinity with only magic blood intermarriages. Muggle = non-magical person Muggle-Born = a witch or a wizard who's parents are BOTH muggles. Magic-born person = the wizard son or witch daughter of a witch and a wizard. Magic person = anyone who is magical regardless of birth. Mixed blood = the wizard son or witch daughter of a witch or a wizard, and a non-magical muggle parent. As in Tom Riddle. Harry has purer blood than Tom Riddle does because both of Harry's parents were magic. Mudblood = is several things. In the purest form, all muggles are mudbloods in that they do not have any magical blood at all. By another definition, the wizard son or witch daughter of muggle parents are mudbloods by virtue of the fact that they have no magical heritage. They are magical but have no ancestral magical blood. That would be Hermione. Next, if your parents are a witch/wizard and a muggle, then your blood isn't pure, therefore you are a mudblood. Again, Tom Riddle. Very interesting that by any definition Tom Riddle is more of a mudblood than Harry. Part of what confuses this, is that the concept of 'mudblood' is in the eye (or mouth) of the insulter. If you are not of totally pure-blood as the Weasleys and Malfoys are, then any impurity makes you a mudblood in some peoples eyes. If you have one muggle in a 1,000 years of magical heritage then to some people your blood isn't pure and therefore, you are a mudblood. Harry could be mudblood in the eyes of some because his mother was muggle born, BUT he could just as easily be pureblood in the eyes of others by vitue of the fact that his parents are both magical; a witch and a wizard. Point- the is no absolute definition of a 'mudblood'. Just a few thoughts on the subject. bboy_mn From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 30 01:05:08 2002 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 01:05:08 -0000 Subject: Animagi, whiskers and antlers In-Reply-To: <66.2954f1e4.2af0610e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45920 Audra: >Alright, let's see how much we can agree on here, Me: Seems a fair amount but we are stuck on that one point... Audra: >The argument is whether the brain physically transforms to the >animal's or remains human. Indulge me in my case once more... Me: Aaaah. We were so close. Ok, I'll indulge you...a bit. ;) >Okay, "convince the Dementors he was not of sound mind," you say? As >I see it, this view can only jive with your shrunken human brain >theory in one of two ways. >1.) Sirius actively exercised control over his emotions to purposely >fool the Dementors into perceiving him as unsound, or >2.) there is something about the dog body that filters the emotions >differently, as in possibly Amanda's Vatican-inspired >light-through-a-colored-glass idea. Me: I subscribe to #2. The emotions were filtered in a way that dementors could not tell (a)he was a dog and (b)he was strong enough and of sound mind to escape. And I do not see how you can read that passage any other way? Black escaped because he fooled the dementors to believe he was weaker. Whether or not his mind was "filtered" or "hiding behind" does not change that the fact he *did* convince the dementors he was not strong enough to escape. They did not let him escape because they thought he was a dog. But anyway, how this physically happened is where we really clash. So let's just move on to that... Audra presented her theory (with a little snipping on my part): >The shrinky-dink brain would have to shrink even smaller in size to >fit proportionally in the animal skull, and jostling around at >strange angles. I'm not even getting into the problems of the rest >of the nervous system that would have to go along with the brain. >A second reason is that having a shrunken human brain, the Animagus >would miss out on some great advantages of some animals' >brains--extraordinarily developed senses of smell, sight, hearing, >balance... Me: Well, if we want to get anatomy and physics into this, what happens to the food in Skeeter's stomach when her stomach changes into the insect digestion system? Can Black see color when his eyes change into the dog's monochromatic colorblind eyes? How can McGonagall use her whiskers if her "shrunken brain" does not have that receiver part of her brain? If someone is transfigured into a cow, do they have to eat grass since their four cow stomaches can only digest grass? [what is the plural for 'stomach' anyway? It is not in the dictionary.] Hmmm, I see your point, but do wizards transfigure themselves animals so they can also have animal inner traits/gifts? Do we have any canon evidence that an animagus has their chosen animal's inner gifts? We have proof of the physical. Yes, Skeeter can fly. Yes, Black can swim and walk on all fours. Yes, McGonagall can swish her tail. And I am sure James *loved* showing off his antlers. But, do any of them have animal-like traits like bug:multi-eyes or dog:keen sense of smell or cat/rat:sensory use of whiskers? I see no canon evidence that they do. They are just able to use the animal body in the same manor that the wizard would as human form. I am not sure we can reach a common ground here. Physically there are many issues with transfiguration. Not being able to dissect a animagus wizard, I don't think we will ever know. But if you find canon to show that an animagus has those non-human inner traits, please do point them out. I would like the challenge to try and work that into the "shrinky-dink brain" I've drawn in the snow. :) Melody From Victim_of_Atlantis at hotmail.com Tue Oct 29 23:18:19 2002 From: Victim_of_Atlantis at hotmail.com (Lost Feyth) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:18:19 -0500 Subject: Some Thoughts On Some Stuff, etc. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45921 Pippin Writes: < No: HPFGUIDX 45922 In a message dated 29/10/2002 14:09:57 Eastern Standard Time, jprobins at ix.netcom.com writes: > I thought that it was made pretty clear in COS that Harry was not > considered a "mudblood". Why would anyone consider a non-pureblood to be > the heir of Slytherin? Also, I do not think that we know whether Lily came > from a magical family or not, do we? My impression in that past was that > she was muggle-born, but Petunia does make a statement in PS about how > happy their parents were when Lily turned out to be a witch. Well Petunia's actual words are that her parents were proud of having "a" witch in the family, as in singular. I also believe that JK has confirmed in an interview that Lily was muggle-born. Now that I think about it, you're right about the mudblood thing though. Hermione is called a mudblood, so that is synonomous with being muggle-born. For some reason I was equating it with being half-wizard, half-muggle. Still, Voldemort would disapprove of James, a pureblood, marrying Lily, a muggle-born (or mudblood). And yes, Voldemort, the Slytherin heir himself, is half-muggle. Hitler was also half Jewish, so I've heard. Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Oct 30 01:55:36 2002 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 01:55:36 -0000 Subject: Bipolar, Self-Absorbed Sirius? (was Some Thoughts On Some Stuff) In-Reply-To: <3b.2ec61b5e.2aeedf06@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45923 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jodel at a... wrote: > Dumbledore was also wary about Sirius for another reason. Sirius is clever > enough, but he is impulsive and he takes risks that are likely to get himself > killed. What are you basing this assumption on? We don't even know what pre- Azkaban-Sirius did for a living or what his role in the original war was, so we don't know how risky his actions may have been. Or are you talking about Student Sirius? Again, what we do know of possible risky behavior, other than attempting the Animagus Transformation, which would make Peter and James prone to the same risks? Post-Azkaban Sirius certainly takes risks with his own welfare, but, call me a sentimental fool, I honestly believe he's decided that he's of more potential use to Harry being close to Hogwarts, and not lounging about in whatever warm clime he was hiding out in. IN this case, the risks are to himself more than anyone else. You don't want someone for a secret keeper that is likely to go off > and get himself killed, taking the secret with him. Wouldn't that ensure that Voldemort couldn't possibly get the secret, if the secret keeper dies? IMHO, Sirius is not > particularly stable, even if he WAS James Potter's best friend. Not even back > then. The Dememtors only made him worse. (I suspect bi-polar disorder, > myself.) Again, would you outline how you've come up with this diagnosis? > I think that James and his friends went back far enough and were such a > closely-knit group that, at the time, it didn't occur to either James or > Lupin that the spy was one of themselves. I think that they were more > inclined to suspect other members of Dumbledore's organization, with whom > they worked closely. Sirius, however, later admits that he had suspected > Lupin. This could be standard wizarding predjudice in action, coming to the > surface once push comes to shove. Or it could have been a bit of fallout > related to the Whomping Willow incident Hmmm...I can buy some of this. But, as we know from Peter's treachery, MWPP were *not* as close-knit as they had once been. I think we could argue either way as to whether they suspected someone else in D's organizations. Certainly that's possible, but we don't have enough canon about that time to say for sure. But, I think it's also possible that only the Potters' closest friends knew of their whereabouts, and they also knew that one of their number was a spy. I think it possible that neither Remus nor Sirius suspected Peter because they still saw him as the hanger-on who was not particularly gifted, and simply discounted the possibility that he'd be the traitor. > > Personally, I think it was the latter. Sirius is a throughly self- absorbed > individual, (and was so well before the Dementors got their hands on him. I admit, I'm a Sirius fan, so sometimes I feel compelled to defend him. You seem to be saying that Sirius was always self-absorbed and that he continues to be so because the Dementors have sucked out whatever good may have existed within him. Can you give some examples? > he is not of a forgiving disposition and he does not often choose to be put > in the wrong. (Unless he absolutely has no choice in the matter -- then he > wallows in it.) I'm not sure I get this, either. Who is Sirius not forgiving? For what? Or do you mean that he can't get past his still-very-obvious dislike of Snape? That relationship, to my mind, is very much a two- way street. And I'd really like to know what wrong Sirius committed that he's wallowing in. Surely not the Prank - many people on the list seethe at the thought that, to our knowledge, he's never apologized to Snape for that. Or is it that he set in motion the actions that caused his best friend and his best friend's wife to be murdered and his godson orphaned? Sure, Sirius was all emotional about that in the Shrieking Shack scene, but the situation was highly emotional for every one in the room. Hardly wallowing, in my book. And, in GoF, I don't see that at all. I think Sirius feels guilt and remorse over all of that, and will continue to do so, but I don't see him wallowing in it. And if he harbored some niggling sense of blame toward Lupin > for having been the cause for his having been put into the wrong over the > Shrieking Shack incident, it wouldn't be the only case we've seen where he > has unrepentantly, and very disingeneously, determined to blame his own > victim for what could have happened to him. and if Sirius can be so self-serving as to > assign blame to Snape for the incident, he is certainly capable of assigning > it to Lupin as well. I can agree with you here that Sirius still seems unrepentant regarding Snape and the Prank. I don't know that I can make the leap that, of course, that means he'll blame Lupin as well. Nor, do we have evidence that he's ever blamed Lupin. This sounds to me more that you want to make this assumption because it fits in with the way you view Sirius. If Sirius was that bad, surely by now he would have said that it's really the Potters fault they died because they decided yo make Peter the Secret Keeper. >He was encouraging Sirius to suspect Lupin. He was > also probably working on Lupin to not fully trust Sirius. And he was > certainly working on James and Sirius to trust HIM. We still don't have much > of a handle on how James Potter's mind worked. But it is pretty clear that > Sirius is very easily manipulated by anyone who knows him well, and knows > what buttons to push. You seem pretty sure that Peter was deviously working on everyone behind the scenes to encourage distrust. Could be true, but we need more information on exactly what was going on then. And, if Peter was easily manipulating Sirius into this, he also seemed to be able to strongly influence James, Lily and Remus at the same time. So, it's not just Sirius' buttons that were being pushed. Which brings me to two other questions. 1. Directed to those who have strong love him/hate him feelings re: either Severus or Sirius. Don't you think it interesting that these people see Snape as either bitter, mean-spirited, spiteful, and an awful teacher or as brave, misunderstood, put-upon, but with his heart always in the right place. And, as for Sirius, people with strong feelings either think he's arrogant, violent, mentally disturbed in one way or another, or he's a brave, good man who's got a genuine affection for Harry and would willingly give his life to protect Harry? And why is it that it seems to be these two characters that cause the most intense feelings? 2. Will we be disappointed to find out that we all read *way* too much into all the HP characters' motivations, personalities, past histories? I mean, what if, what we read is what we get? No Evil! Whoever. No Dumbledore as the master manipulator. And Snape was not doing a clever acting job - he really was pissed off at the end of PoA. Will we be disappointed if our pet theories get blown out of the water? Which is not to say that we won't come up with new theories, once we get more fodder from JKR... Marianne, who hasn't jumped to Sirius' defense in a while, and felt the need... From twisterx at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 30 03:52:16 2002 From: twisterx at bellsouth.net (twister10_2000) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 03:52:16 -0000 Subject: Who were the Potters? (Trelawney's prediction In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021029034340.00971c40@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45925 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum wrote: > At 03:21 29/10/02 +0000, Liz wrote: > > >I know that because Dumbledore had his own spies, he knew that I subscribe to the popularly-held belief that the reason why Voldemort was after the Potters had something to do with Trelawney's First Prediction (the substance of the Prediction remains pure speculation, of course). As some have recently voiced here, one thing I wonder about is why Dumbledore (and presumably Voldemort) considered the First Prediction to be accurate. This will probably be explained at the same time as we find out its substance (JKR has admitted that the First Prediction is of great importance to the story), although I suspect it's got something to do with the Centaurs (we know from JKR that Firenze will be re-appearing). What exactly *was* Trelawney's first Prediction? I remember the prediction she makes at the end of the third book, but for some reason, cannot remember a mention of a another _real_ prediciton. Would anyone mind pointing out where in the text it's cited...or what exactly it is? As for the Potter question...Well, it's a mystery wrapped up in an enigma, isn't it? At least, until the series is finished. I've just held the belief that there was something about the Potter bloodline, most likely that they are descendents of Gryffindor that sent Voldemort after them. It's the only reason for me that explains why Voldy killed off James, and was so adamant about killing Harry...yet was willing to spare Lily (or at least, not really caring in whether he took her life or not). Very vague, yes. Very original, yes...but entirely plausible. From gandharvika at hotmail.com Wed Oct 30 09:03:45 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:03:45 +0000 Subject: Re; (FILK) Fan Fiction Writer Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45926 Fan Fiction Writer (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Paperback Writer_ by the Beatles) Dedicated to Frankie :)> Hear the original at: http://www.geocities.com/michellesrockinatoz/RealAudio.html Fan fiction writer (writer) All those in fandom will you read my fic? It took a while to write, will you take a peek? Based on the novels on J.K.R. I'm new at this and I want to be a fan fiction writer Fan fiction writer It's a really good story with a really good plot And I really think you will like it a lot The story takes place after G.O.F. It's been done before but I want to be a fan fiction writer Fan fiction writer Fan fiction writer (writer) It's just one chapter, I'm working on two It'll be an epic by the time it's through It's a SHIPPER, Harry / Hermione I may change to Ginny, but I want to be a fan fiction writer Fan fiction writer If you really like it, check out the website You can read as much fics as your heart's delight Before you log out please write me your review I need the feedback 'cause I want to be a fan fiction writer Fan fiction writer Fan fiction writer (writer) Fan fiction writer - fan fiction writer Fan fiction writer - fan fiction writer -Gail B...digging that crazy little bass riff that Paul McCartney is doing on there on the original! _________________________________________________________________ Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From anglinsbees at yahoo.com Wed Oct 30 09:25:27 2002 From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:25:27 -0000 Subject: Shrinky Dink Brains In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45927 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Melody" wrote: > Audra presented her theory (with a little snipping on my part): > >The shrinky-dink brain would have to shrink even smaller in size to > >fit proportionally in the animal skull, and jostling around at > >strange angles. I'm not even getting into the problems of the rest > >of the nervous system that would have to go along with the brain. > > >A second reason is that having a shrunken human brain, the Animagus > >would miss out on some great advantages of some animals' > >brains--extraordinarily developed senses of smell, sight, hearing, > >balance... Well we already know that Wizards can create Tardis like spaces- Things that are much larger on the inside than they are on the Outside. Moody's trunk, the trunk/ boot and backseat of the Flying Ford Anglia, and the Tents used at the Quidditch Cup are three examples that pop quickly to mind. In a world where such divergences of space and volume are commonplace, why can't a Wizard tuck his brain, let alone his or her entire human body into, say, the appendix (Or some other undrused organ) of their animagi form? It's still there, and connected, the extra mass is just tucked away in a handy interdimensional (Intradimensional?) pocket. This would be another reason why the anamagi transformation is so hard- You must not only transfigure yourself, but create an exratadimensional pocket to hold the of you! If you fail, you could actualy become your animagi form, having lost the better part of yourself. In any case, we cannot begin to argue with rules of Physics that are beyond our Muggle comprehension. Ellen, the Pottering Beekeeper Who plays Sirius Black (And others) over at Naginis Kiss RPG, and has thus thought entirely too much about this subject.... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naginis_kiss/ From anglinsbees at yahoo.com Wed Oct 30 10:56:05 2002 From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:56:05 -0000 Subject: (FILK) Arabella Figg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45928 Arabella Figg A Filk by Ellen Anglin To the tune of "Eleanor Rigby" By John Lennon and Paul McCartney Ah, look at all the silly Muggles Ah, but are they all really Muggles? Arabella Figg plays with her cats in the garden as people go by. What does she spy? Sits by the window, wearing a polyjuiced form Is that quite norm? All the silly Muggles Where are they coming from? All the busy Muggles And do they all belong? Albus Dumbledore, sending the old crew a heads up, the Dark Lord is back, Prepare for attack! Look at him working Laying his plans to forestall the Dark Lord's fell schemes, Meanwhile Harry dreams All the silly Muggles Where are they coming from? All the busy Muggles And do they all belong? Ah, look at all the silly Muggles Ah, but are they all really Muggles? Arabella Figg, Tiddles and Fluffy and Snowy and Dear Mr. Paws Sharp eyes and claws Waiting and watching, silently guarding amidst all the Muggles so dim. Shielding him. All the silly Muggles (Ah, look at all the silly Muggles) Where are they coming from? All the busy Muggles (Ah, but are they all really Muggles?) And do they all belong? From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Wed Oct 30 12:11:15 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:11:15 +0000 Subject: Who were the Potters? (Trelawney's prediction In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.20021029034340.00971c40@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021030120126.00967910@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45929 At 03:52 30/10/02 +0000, twister10_2000 wrote: >What exactly *was* Trelawney's first Prediction? I remember the >prediction she makes at the end of the third book, but for some >reason, cannot remember a mention of a another _real_ prediciton. >Would anyone mind pointing out where in the text it's cited...or what >exactly it is? Chapter 22 of PoA ("Owl Post Again"), about 6 pages in (p. 311 in the UK edition), just after Remus leaves: quote (Harry) [...] "was she making a real prediction?" "Do you know, Harry, I think she might have been." he [Dumbledore] said thoughtfully. "Who'd have thought it? That brings her total of real predictions up to two. I should offer her a pay raise...." end quote That is all we know about the First Prediction, apart from JKR admitting somewhere along the line that it is important to the plot. >As for the Potter question...Well, it's a mystery wrapped up in an >enigma, isn't it? At least, until the series is finished. I've just >held the belief that there was something about the Potter bloodline, >most likely that they are descendents of Gryffindor that sent >Voldemort after them. It's the only reason for me that explains why >Voldy killed off James, and was so adamant about killing Harry...yet >was willing to spare Lily (or at least, not really caring in whether >he took her life or not). Very vague, yes. Very original, yes...but >entirely plausible. That's a very common (but far from universal) theory. I happen to suspect it may be true, but there are things about it (mainly JKR's theme of choice over heritage) which make me doubt it. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, playing catchup *again* :-) From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 30 12:14:00 2002 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:14:00 -0000 Subject: Bipolar, Self-Absorbed Sirius? (was Some Thoughts On Some Stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45930 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "kiricat2001" wrote: > 1. Directed to those who have strong love him/hate him feelings re: > either Severus or Sirius. Don't you think it interesting that these > people see Snape as either bitter, mean-spirited, spiteful, and an > awful teacher or as brave, misunderstood, put-upon, but with his > heart always in the right place. And, as for Sirius, people with > strong feelings either think he's arrogant, violent, mentally > disturbed in one way or another, or he's a brave, good man who's got > a genuine affection for Harry and would willingly give his life to > protect Harry? And why is it that it seems to be these two > characters that cause the most intense feelings? I think it's because canon so strongly pits these two characters against each other. Snape hated James, but James is dead. He hates Remus, but Remus just stands there and smiles. He hates Sirius, and Sirius is right there hating him back. So it's very easy for readers to fall into taking sides and picking one of the the two to cast as the villain. So one side you get people spinning elaborate theories on how the Prank was really all Snape's fault, and on the other side you get people positing that only a violent psycho could be that mean to Snape. > > 2. Will we be disappointed to find out that we all read *way* too > much into all the HP characters' motivations, personalities, past > histories? I mean, what if, what we read is what we get? No Evil! > Whoever. No Dumbledore as the master manipulator. And Snape was not > doing a clever acting job - he really was pissed off at the end of > PoA. Will we be disappointed if our pet theories get blown out of the > water? Not me! My PRESSURE COOKER and I will be thrilled. :-) Besides, if all our theories are wrong, it will mean JKR has come up with something else, something totally new and unpredicable, to move her plot along, and how could we be disappointed with that? Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From buffyeton at yahoo.com Wed Oct 30 12:30:14 2002 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:30:14 -0000 Subject: Why the Large Age Dif. Between Charlie and Percy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45931 All of the Weasley children are close in age, except Charlie and Percy. Charlie was born 9 years before Percy. So why such a large gap between the two of them? What was happening in 1967-1976 that kept the Weasley's from having children?? Because after Percy they turned them out about every two years or less. From elfundeb at comcast.net Wed Oct 30 12:31:20 2002 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:31:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius, Self-Absorbed? and Snape References: Message-ID: <001101c28010$4018e2c0$3a3b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 45932 In response to Jodel's statement that: >Sirius is a throughly self-absorbed > individual, he is not of a forgiving disposition and he does not often choose to be put > in the wrong. Orla Quirke and Marianne both asked what canon supports this assertion. In writing my own post on whether Lupin suspected Sirius of being the spy before the Potters' deaths, I considered making the suggestion that he is self-absorbed, but decided against it. In my mind, the only evidence of Sirius' self-absorption comes, not from what we've seen of Sirius himself before we meet him in PoA -- because we've seen nothing, only heard explanations -- but from the application of generational parallels, which I think we as readers use, often subconsciously, to fill in the gaps in our understanding of the backstories involving Sirius' generation. As it relates to James' and Sirius' prankstering, the text itself (PoA, ch. 10) encourages us to draw a parallel between J&S and the Twins ("such a pair of troublemakers" . . . "Fred and George Weasley could give 'em a run for their money"). Richelle's recent posts analyzing the twins provides plenty of support for concluding that Fred in particular is extremely self-centered. I think one could make an argument that every nice thing Fred says or does for Harry in PoA is for the purpose of keeping his spirits up so Gryffindor will have a chance at winning the Quidditch cup. If I were comparing James and Sirius to the Twins, I would probably put Sirius in the Fred role and James in the George role. It may not be much support, but the notion of Sirius as self-absorbed, at least in his youth, is not, IMO, uncanonical. Still, I'd probably agree that Sirius is more impulsive than self-absorbed, or to use Lupin's phraseology, Sirius was too "carried away with his own cleverness" to consider the consequences. He is loyal to his friends unto death but that loyalty manifests itself in very destructive acts. Marianne also asked: Directed to those who have strong love him/hate him feelings re: > either Severus or Sirius. Don't you think it interesting that these > people see Snape as either bitter, mean-spirited, spiteful, and an > awful teacher or as brave, misunderstood, put-upon, but with his > heart always in the right place. And, as for Sirius, people with > strong feelings either think he's arrogant, violent, mentally > disturbed in one way or another, or he's a brave, good man who's got > a genuine affection for Harry and would willingly give his life to > protect Harry? And why is it that it seems to be these two > characters that cause the most intense feelings? I'm not a Sirius fan (though my husband is), and I like Snape primarily because he is interesting and not because he is nice, but I think your description of both is about right (the good and the bad), except for Snape always having his heart in the right place. To me, they are both bitter, mean-spirited (though Sirius is mostly mean-spirited about Snape and Pettigrew, and Snape, IMO, is meanspirited as a reaction to his own lack of popularity -- i.e., "if people don't like me why should I act as though I like them"), spiteful, brave, and misunderstood. And both of them are there to protect Harry. Debbie who prefers Lupin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From buffyeton at yahoo.com Wed Oct 30 13:05:05 2002 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 13:05:05 -0000 Subject: Do All Students Travel to Hogwarts by the HE? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45933 It would seem kind of silly for students who live in Northern England or Scotland to have to travel all the way down to London just to go back again. Do you think there is an alternate way to get to Hogwarts for those who live closer? From msbonsai at mninter.net Wed Oct 30 14:49:27 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:49:27 -0000 Subject: Why the Large Age Dif. Between Charlie and Percy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45934 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tamara" wrote: > All of the Weasley children are close in age, except Charlie and > Percy. Charlie was born 9 years before Percy. So why such a large > gap between the two of them? What was happening in 1967-1976 that > kept the Weasley's from having children?? Because after Percy they > turned them out about every two years or less. Well I suppose it's possible that because they did not have too much money in the beginning, they were limiting the number of kids. This may have changed when he got a ministry job. Or, perhaps after he got his job at the ministry, well, Mrs. Weasly did say that Mr. Weasly was working weekends too during the reign of Voldemort, perhaps they just didn't have *time* to have kids. But then, they did start having kids again (Percy, Fred & George, Ron) before Voldemort was defeated, as Harry and Ron are the same age . . . I'm hoping we will find out more about how Bill and Charlie felt growing up in the terror of Voldemort. And if Percy is the way he is due to when he was born? Birth order, or the end of Voldemort's reign? I mean, here he is, baby of the family, then suddenly lots more babies. I'm sure with Twins after him, the attention really went away from him. And he's too young to play with his older brothers. Just some thoughts :o) Julie From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 30 14:36:43 2002 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:36:43 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Further speculation on Dates in WW Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021030083548.04d41ec0@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45935 As the clock struck 04:43 PM 10/29/2002 -0800, Barb took pen in hand and wrote: >Then James P. Robinson III wrote: > > >But why should JKR's views have ANYTHING to do with our interpretations, >interests, obsessions, etc. regarding the works? I see no connection. Lots of interesting stuff snipped > >I have no problem with trying to work out many things that she actually >seems to have thought about. Lots more stuff snipped (per list elf request). > >--Barb I am afraid I must have muddled one of my main points before. That point was that what JKR thinks/thought about her works, what she intended her work to portray, why she did not did not write things a certain way and what she intends the work to "mean" are irrelevant to the interpretation of the works themselves. Jim From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Oct 30 15:09:14 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 15:09:14 -0000 Subject: Some Thoughts On Some Stuff eg Sirius, Wormtail, The Map and more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45936 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jastrangfeld" wrote: I would say the other uncorrected one that > bugs me is when TtHarry and TtHermione watch themselves coming back out of the tunnel, and suddenly Hermione is coming out before Snape, where before, the first time, she came out after Snape, with Harry, > and it reads that Sirius comes out last then. So did something > change? Hermione can be before and after Snape? And they didn't know? Just another little error set in there to bug us :o) > Picking up on this a little late to comment that this is either a) excellent Flint spotting! or b) proof that Harry and Hermione are now on a different timeline Pippin From Chelsea2162 at aol.com Wed Oct 30 15:15:09 2002 From: Chelsea2162 at aol.com (Chelsea2162 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:15:09 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who were the Potters? Message-ID: <9c.28a5a14a.2af1517d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45937 Hmm, interesting.... It would be a gigantic twist of epic proportions if James or Lily were working with the Death Eaters, or something along those lines.....as in V goes to kill them for their spying, or because they went against his orders, or didn't do something correctly, etc etc.... We do know that something huge will be revealed about Lily Potter. Maybe she was a spy. Maybe James was and she tried to protect him. Maybe V killed James but wanted to keep Lily around because she was a secret DE, but she freaked about losing her family and he killed her too. Maybe I'm way, way, *way* off in left field...Hmmmm... *Chelsea* From mn_emily at hotmail.com Wed Oct 30 15:38:52 2002 From: mn_emily at hotmail.com (Emily F) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:38:52 -0600 Subject: Who were the Potters? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45938 This may seem like a silly question, but what are the odds that Godric Gryffindor only has one heir (then two, with the birth of Harry)? I assume that most wizarding families aren't as...numerous as the Weasleys. Nonetheless, we're looking at MANY generations of people! There should be a multitude of heirs, right? Perhaps I misunderstand the meaning of the word heir, but this is something that's always bothered me about heir!Harry. (I realize, of course, that this argument applies equally well to Slytherin and Riddle.) Emily Yeah, I know I said I'd go back to lurking... _________________________________________________________________ Broadband?Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From divaclv at aol.com Wed Oct 30 16:49:06 2002 From: divaclv at aol.com (c_voth312) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:49:06 -0000 Subject: Sirius, Self-Absorbed? and Snape In-Reply-To: <001101c28010$4018e2c0$3a3b3244@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45939 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., elfundeb wrote: > I'm not a Sirius fan (though my husband is), and I like Snape primarily because he is interesting and not because he is nice, but I think your description of both is about right (the good and the bad), except for Snape always having his heart in the right place. To me, they are both bitter, mean-spirited (though Sirius is mostly mean- spirited about Snape and Pettigrew, and Snape, IMO, is meanspirited as a reaction to his own lack of popularity -- i.e., "if people don't like me why should I act as though I like them"), spiteful, brave, and misunderstood. And both of them are there to protect Harry. > > Debbie > who prefers Lupin > This touches on my theory, which is that the ultimate difference between Snape and Sirius is merely a matter of perception. To Harry, Sirius is kind while Snape isn't, and so to him the former is a good person while the latter isn't. For fans of the characters, having the two in conflict triggers the instinct that one must be "right" and therefore the other "wrong", so the lines are drawn according to whichever one the individual gravitates towards. ~Christi, who likes both Sirius *and* Snape and can't wait to see what happens when they're forced to work towards the same end... From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Oct 30 18:11:54 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:11:54 -0000 Subject: Sirius, Self-Absorbed? and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45941 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., elfundeb wrote: > > I'm not a Sirius fan (though my husband is), and I like Snape > primarily because he is interesting and not because he is nice, but I > think your description of both is about right (the good and the bad), except for Snape always having his heart in the right place. To me, they are both bitter, mean-spirited (though Sirius is mostly mean- spirited about Snape and Pettigrew, and Snape, IMO, is meanspirited as a reaction to his own lack of popularity -- i.e., "if people don't like me why should I act as though I like them"), spiteful, brave, and misunderstood. And both of them are there to protect Harry. > > > > Debbie > > who prefers Lupin > > Christi: > This touches on my theory, which is that the ultimate difference > between Snape and Sirius is merely a matter of perception. To Harry, Sirius is kind while Snape isn't, and so to him the former is a good person while the latter isn't. For fans of the characters, having the two in conflict triggers the instinct that one must be "right" and therefore the other "wrong", so the lines are drawn according to whichever one the individual gravitates towards.<<< Me: Oh how ardently listees defend "their" characters, endlessly denying or explaining away their flaws. Was there ever better proof that love is blind? Poor guys, so lungsuffering, so noble, so devoted, so misunderstood. But Snape is heartless, Lupin is, by his own admission, a coward, and Sirius doesn't *think.* I fear that JKR is going to call them to account for it, and very painfully too. Pippin fondly stroking her FEATHERBOA From kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 30 18:25:08 2002 From: kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com (kateydidnt2002) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:25:08 -0000 Subject: What it means to be an heir. (WAS Re: Who were the Potters?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45942 Emily wrote: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45943 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tamara" wrote: > It would seem kind of silly for students who live in Northern England > or Scotland to have to travel all the way down to London just to >go back again. Do you think there is an alternate way to get to > Hogwarts for those who live closer? Unless JKR has said somewhere that King's Cross is the only place to board the Hogwarts Express, I suspect it's simply that Harry never really notices or bothers about the stops en route. An en-route stop usually only takes about three minutes on British railways, so Harry might well not really notice it - especially if it's boarding only. I could imagine the Hogwarts Express calling at platform 7 and a quarter at Birmingham, 12 and a bit at Manchester, and 5 and a half at Edinburgh. :-) That would cover most of the population, including the Irish students who come over by muggle ferry rather than muggle aircraft. [Presumably the WW don't have the same problems with the West Coast Railway line that us muggles are presently having.] Pip!Squeak From stevebinch at hotmail.com Wed Oct 30 19:09:54 2002 From: stevebinch at hotmail.com (Steve Binch) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:09:54 -0700 Subject: Why the Large Age Dif. Between Charlie and Percy? References: <1035988863.1980.54977.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45944 <<<<< All of the Weasley children are close in age, except Charlie and Percy. Charlie was born 9 years before Percy. So why such a large gap between the two of them? What was happening in 1967-1976 that kept the Weasley's from having children?? Because after Percy they turned them out about every two years or less. >>>>>> This has been discussed at great length, sprouting several theories. Some people speculate that there is a missing Weasley child in there. That perhaps Mr or Mrs Weasley were involved in the death of this child as a result of an unforgivable curse. I don't know why everyone thinks there has to be some mystery behind it. My parents had 2 children (boys) close together, waited 5 years, then had 3 more children close together (2 more boys and finally the girl they wanted), then for reasons of their own had 2 more children 11 years later. What I am trying to say is that Molly and Arthur could (and probably) had Bill and Charlie in the early years of their marriage and felt like that was enough at that time in their life. Then as the boys started getting older, decided that they wanted and could handle more children. I don't beleive there is a mystery to be solved as far as the gap between Charlie and Percy's age. -Steve B. From buffyeton at yahoo.com Wed Oct 30 19:08:42 2002 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:08:42 -0000 Subject: Do All Students Travel to Hogwarts by the HE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45945 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bluesqueak" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tamara" wrote: > > It would seem kind of silly for students who live in Northern > England > > or Scotland to have to travel all the way down to London just to > >go back again. Do you think there is an alternate way to get to > > Hogwarts for those who live closer? > > Unless JKR has said somewhere that King's Cross is the only place to > board the Hogwarts Express, I suspect it's simply that Harry never > really notices or bothers about the stops en route. An en-route stop > usually only takes about three minutes on British railways, so Harry > might well not really notice it - especially if it's boarding only. > > Pip!Squeak Yes, but in PoA they obviously notice when the Hogwarts Express stops to let on the Dementors. Ron thinks it is time to get off. If they were used to stops to let on other students, this wouldn't have happened. Tamara From robgonz0 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 30 19:23:53 2002 From: robgonz0 at yahoo.com (Robert Gonzalez) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 13:23:53 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Do All Students Travel to Hogwarts by the HE? References: Message-ID: <001801c28049$e2db8380$18fea8c0@WorkGroup> No: HPFGUIDX 45946 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tamara" > > Yes, but in PoA they obviously notice when the Hogwarts Express stops > to let on the Dementors. Ron thinks it is time to get off. If they > were used to stops to let on other students, this wouldn't have > happened. > > Tamara > me: Unless the stop to let on the Dementors on was after the last en-route stop. IIRC they were fairly close to Hogwarts at that time. After Harry recovers Lupin says they are about 10 minutes away. Rob From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Oct 30 19:42:12 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:42:12 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bipolar, Self-Absorbed Sirius? (was Some Thoughts On Some... Message-ID: <1a5.b2ec704.2af19014@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45947 In a message dated 30/10/2002 01:57:15 GMT Standard Time, Zarleycat at aol.com writes: > Directed to those who have strong love him/hate him feelings re: > either Severus or Sirius. Don't you think it interesting that these > people see Snape as either bitter, mean-spirited, spiteful, and an > awful teacher or as brave, misunderstood, put-upon, but with his > heart always in the right place. And, as for Sirius, people with > strong feelings either think he's arrogant, violent, mentally > disturbed in one way or another, or he's a brave, good man who's got > a genuine affection for Harry and would willingly give his life to > protect Harry? And why is it that it seems to be these two > characters that cause the most intense feelings? > Not the first time this has been remarked on! To answer the last question first, I think it is simply that they are the two adult characters who have the most developed back stories and therefore capture the interest of the adult reader. They have more 'screen time' than Lupin and their intense feelings about one another makes it difficult (though not impossible) for a fan of one to be a fan of both. However, I don't think we're all quite as blind as you make out. Snape *is* bitter, mean-spirited spiteful and a far from ideal, if nonetheless effective teacher. However I would also defend him as, in your words brave, misuderstood and put-upon. As for his *heart*, I'm not sure that it *is* always in the right place. I think his principles are, though. It doesn't stop me being fascinated by the man, though. For some reason I have simply never taken to Sirius. I have never really analysed the reasons why. >2. Will we be disappointed to find out that we all read *way* too >much into all the HP characters' motivations, personalities, past >histories? I mean, what if, what we read is what we get? No Evil! >Whoever. No Dumbledore as the master manipulator. And Snape was not >doing a clever acting job - he really was pissed off at the end of >PoA. Will we be disappointed if our pet theories get blown out of the >water? Which is not to say that we won't come up with new theories, >once we get more fodder from JKR... No, I don't think so, not when it comes to personality or back story. Whatever JKR reveals, our imaginations can always supply more which is still consistent with what she writes. Even the 'face value' interpretion allows us to interpret personality differently according to our own perceptions. I'd much, much rather assume Snape really was pissed off at the end of PoA: to me that makes his character much more interesting than if he's just play acting. I always both hope and dread that JKR will eventually publish her notes and backstories. Hope, because I really would like to know what the 'real' backstories are and dread, because in another sense it doesn't matter and one of the wonderful things about literature is the way we can creatively interpret it, enter it and experience it for ourselves. After all, how well does any of us know anyone else? No real person has an objective backstory in the way a fictional character can have in the author's perception. Whenever we tell anybody's story, even our own, we tell it and interpret it subjectively. Only the novelist has the privilege of knowing exactly the details of another's personality and history (and even s/he may be interpreting as s/he writes or unconsciously adding facets to personalities that s/he didn't intend: has she done this with Snape?). I think of Draco in this context. JKR *tells* us that in comparison with Draco, Dudley is (roughly, IIRC) a kind and considerate boy. Yet I have never managed to *feel* from the text quite how awful Draco is and quite what impact he has on Harry. I think it is probably partly because he gets less, or less concentrated, page time than Dudley. JKR knows exactly how nasty she has created him to be. She tells us that he is worse than Dudley, yet to me he never seems so. I suspect this is one of the reasons why Draco is a frequent candidate for redemption in reader's interpretations, whilst Dudley is not. So JKR's interpretation and back story for Draco may be quite different from those of some readers. Does it matter? I don't think so and in the case of Draco, I'm afraid I wouldn't care very much. If her notes on Snape turned out to be very different from what I expected, however, I think I might very well dismiss them as *wrong*, on the basis that my interpretation from the published text is as valid as anyone else's and that what isn't published as canon doesn't count! Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Oct 30 19:50:25 2002 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Anne) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:50:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the Potters? (now, Choice over Heritage) In-Reply-To: <1035988863.1980.54977.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021030195025.35977.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45948 On Wed, 30 October GulPlum wrote: >> At 03:52 30/10/02 +0000, twister10_2000 wrote: > >As for the Potter question...Well, it's a mystery wrapped up in an > >enigma, isn't it? At least, until the series is finished. I've just > >held the belief that there was something about the Potter bloodline, > >most likely that they are descendents of Gryffindor that sent > >Voldemort after them. It's the only reason for me that explains why > >Voldy killed off James, and was so adamant about killing Harry...yet > >was willing to spare Lily (or at least, not really caring in whether > >he took her life or not). Very vague, yes. Very original, yes...but > >entirely plausible. : > That's a very common (but far from universal) >theory. I happen to suspect it may be true, but there >are things about it (mainly JKR's theme of choice >over heritage) which make me doubt it. Anne here: In GulPlum's reply here is an example of something I've been noticing, namely that some theory or other is not likely because it doesn't fit with JKR's theme of choice over heritage. This idea that what one *does* is more important than what one is *born with* is not negated by the fact that we all are in fact born into a certain set of circumstances and that, indeed, things which are out of our control will happen to us all through life and influence us deeply. Take Harry, for instance. More important to the course of Harry's life than whether he is *Gryffindor's Heir* or not is the fact that he was born a wizard. If the second thing turns out to be true, it is merely part of the *raw material* of Harry's life just as we know that the first is. These things don't lock him into any certain *fate*, they are merely the starting point for his life's choices. This leads me to something within the books which I am really hoping JKR will take up eventually. It is quite noticable that there are really no examples of really good muggles anywhere. The best you can do is assume that any number of the muggle-born and half-blood students have decent muggle parents. It is so noticeable to me that I am wondering if *looking down on muggles* will be one of the prejudices taken up in the story eventually. Anne, who is all-muggle, but NOT by choice, and hoping therefore that it turns out to be not important. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From punkieshazam at yahoo.com Wed Oct 30 20:14:13 2002 From: punkieshazam at yahoo.com (punkieshazam) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 20:14:13 -0000 Subject: Blood Confusion: was- Who ...Potters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45949 bboy_mn wrote: > Point- the is no absolute definition of a 'mudblood'. This is true. The entire point JKR is making IMO, is that mudblood is intended as an epithet, just as the *n* word is in English. It could in cases of extreme vexation be used against a pureblood such as Arthur Weasley by any of the Malfoys--although that falls into the category of *mudblood lover*. Punkie From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Oct 30 20:46:16 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 20:46:16 -0000 Subject: Do All Students Travel to Hogwarts by the HE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45950 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tamara" wrote: > It would seem kind of silly for students who live in Northern England > or Scotland to have to travel all the way down to London just to go > back again. Do you think there is an alternate way to get to > Hogwarts for those who live closer? bboy_mn responds: Well, people travel to Hogwarts (actually Hogsmeade) by all sorts of mean all the time; Floo powerder, brooms, apparation, assorted magical vehicles, etc...; so I don't see any reason why close by students couldn't take those alternate methods to Hogsmeade and be waiting at the school or station when the train arrives. We'll never know for sure unless JKR incorporates that information into her books. Although, I think the preference is for students to take the trains, so unless you live VERY close, you would probably still travel to London and ride the train. There is some evidence that Neville is from northern England (that's England, not UK). I think that's somewhat borderline in terms of whether northern Scotland is closer than London, but he always arrives on the train. Conclusion, there are plenty of ways to get to Hogsmeade, so it's reasonable to assume that a few of the student use them. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Oct 30 21:15:46 2002 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:15:46 -0000 Subject: Who were the Potters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45951 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Emily F" wrote: > This may seem like a silly question, but what are the odds that > Godric Gryffindor only has one heir (then two, with the birth of > Harry)? I assume that most wizarding families aren't as...numerous > as the Weasleys. > > Nonetheless, we're looking at MANY generations of people! There > should be a multitude of heirs, right? Perhaps I misunderstand the > meaning of the word heir, but this is something that's always > bothered me about heir!Harry. > > Emily > Yeah, I know I said I'd go back to lurking... This whole heir, decendant, direct decendant, ancestor thing can get very confusing. To illustrate what is happening I like to use England's Royal Family as an example. Prince Charles is Heir to the Throne by virtue of being the oldest child of the Queen. Next in line is Prince Willian the oldest child of Prince Charles. Next in line will be the oldest child of Prince William. Notice that Prince Henry(Harry) got by passed as will his children and their children. When this was talked about before, some one responded and said that they were the 3,000 person in line for the Throne. Meaning of course that 2,999 other people would have to die before she (I think it was a she) became Queen. So their is a line of direct decendancy; Queen --> Charles --> William --> William's oldest child. But there are still may other decendants, relatives and other members of the Royal Family who only qualify a INdirect decendants and would only move into the position of direct heir after the death of other more 'qualified' people. Assuming the line remains unbroken, there is one line of blood that traces from direct decendant/heir to direct decendant/heir to the most current direct Heir. There may be thousands of people with Slytherin or Gryffindor blood who are not in this direct line. There is also the theory that the Heir is chosen as in the Arthurian legend of 'The Sword in the Stone'. He who pulls the sword from the stone is the rightful king. If Harry is chosen it may be because he is the most noble, brave, and heroic Gryffindor in existance at the time when a new heir is needed. I speculate the Fawkes the pheonix could be the one who choses the next heir to Gryffindor. This could mean that Dumbledore is the current heir, in sense, the current King of Gryffindor, or it could simply mean that Fawkes is under Dumbledore's care until such time that Fawkes chooses the next heir. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 30 21:51:40 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:51:40 -0000 Subject: The Heir WAS Re: Who were the Potters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45952 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" wrote: > There is also the theory that the Heir is chosen as in the > Arthurian legend of 'The Sword in the Stone'. He who pulls the > sword from the stone is the rightful king. If Harry is chosen it > may be because he is the most noble, brave, and heroic Gryffindor > in existance at the time when a new heir is needed. > > bboy_mn Of course, Harry has already pulled 'The Sword from the Stone' in CoS. Or, to be precise, Godric Gryffindor's sword from the rather battered Sorting Hat. I think, myself, Harry will prove to be Heir of both Gryffindor and Slytherin - Gryffindor by blood, Slytherin by adoption. Possibly he's the person who will reconcile all the divisions in the WW; the born Gryffindor with the Slytherin talents; the wizard-born who was brought up by muggles; the heir to a pure-blood line who is the son of a muggle-born. Hopefully he won't have to get killed to do it. Pip!Squeak From bess_va at lycos.com Wed Oct 30 19:18:49 2002 From: bess_va at lycos.com (bess_va2000) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:18:49 -0000 Subject: Do All Students Travel to Hogwarts by the HE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45953 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bluesqueak" wrote:> > I could imagine the Hogwarts Express calling at platform 7 and a > quarter at Birmingham, 12 and a bit at Manchester, and 5 and a half > at Edinburgh. :-) I wonder, with no evidence from canon, that once you enter a platform in the Dublin, Manchester, or the Edinburgh train station, you end up on the Hogwarts Express platform. I'm reminded of my Anthropology 101 class - transitions and rites of passage are important. By having all the students come together, and travel together, they are collectively moving from one state of being to another. Otherwise, magical Moms and Dads could just drop their children off at Hogwarts via flue powder, while the Muggle-born would be at a disadvantage. By traveling together, there isn't an "other". Bess From Audra1976 at aol.com Wed Oct 30 19:49:55 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:49:55 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Shrinky Dink Brains Message-ID: <161.1680ee8e.2af191e3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45954 In a message dated 10/30/02, anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen) writes: << Well we already know that Wizards can create Tardis like spaces- Things that are much larger on the inside than they are on the Outside. Moody's trunk, the trunk/ boot and backseat of the Flying Ford Anglia, and the Tents used at the Quidditch Cup are three examples that pop quickly to mind. In a world where such divergences of space and volume are commonplace, why can't a Wizard tuck his brain, let alone his or her entire human body into, say, the appendix (Or some other undrused organ) of their animagi form?>> Me: Well, I dig the Dr. Who reference, and that is a theory too, but the logic doesn't necessarily follow, as the examples are all inanimate objects. Sure, wizards have housed intradimensional spaces within tents, trunks, and Ford Anglias, but inside a living body? There are no examples of this in canon, and in theory I should think there would have to be very special considerations made for that. And maybe it's just me, but putting an intradimensional space within the animal body that houses either a human nervous system or entire human body seems unnecessarily complicated, and I like to use Occum's Razor. The nervous system transforming just like the rest of the body would be simplest. But, as you said, what is seems complicated to me might be a piece of cake to a wizard. Melody: <> Me: I can't think of any canon examples of Animagi using distinctly animal senses that solidly support my theory, but I will keep an eye out. We know Rita Skeeter can fly. If my theory holds true, she could fly *instinctually* the first time she transformed. If not, she would have to have *learned* to fly, as humans do not know how to fly. But we don't have a canon account of the first time Rita transformed. We'll have to for some more information in future books. Audra From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Oct 30 23:03:40 2002 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:03:40 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Do All Students Travel to Hogwarts by the HE? Message-ID: <104.1e7a27e1.2af1bf4c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45955 Bess: > I wonder, with no evidence from canon, that once you enter a platform > in the Dublin, Manchester, or the Edinburgh train station, you end up > on the Hogwarts Express platform. I'm reminded of my Anthropology > 101 class - transitions and rites of passage are important. By > having all the students come together, and travel together, they are > collectively moving from one state of being to another. I think you're spot on about the transitions and rites of passage. The train journey is after all, for the first years, followed by two more rites of passage: the literal one across the lake and the Sorting ceremony. Harry was after all conceived (in a literary sense) on a train and JKR has said that it was important to her that he travelled to school by train. So whether it's logical or not, I believe that all students travel to Hogwarts via the Hogwarts Express, from Kings Cross. A bit of a bummer if you live in Hogsmeade, but there you are. The train journey is the first day of term and a transition into the fully magical world. Also, we don't know that you can get your school equipment in Hogsmeade (the only other likely place), so perhaps everyone ends up having to visit Diagon Alley in preparation for the new school year anyway. Then the children are put on the train and the parents disapparate or Floo home. Given the Floo network and the existence of Port Keys, it shouldn't be too much of an imposition to *get* to London. (Although this makes me wonder why the Weasleys didn't Floo to Diagon Alley and get a taxi from there, rather than all the way from Ottery St Catchpole.) Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hpfgu at plum.cream.org Thu Oct 31 00:46:09 2002 From: hpfgu at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 00:46:09 +0000 Subject: Choice over Heritage/Heirs In-Reply-To: <20021030195025.35977.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1035988863.1980.54977.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20021030224115.00a3c650@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 45956 At 11:50 30/10/02 -0800, Anne wrote: >Take Harry, for instance. More important to the course of Harry's life >than whether he is *Gryffindor's Heir* or not is the fact that he was born >a wizard. If the second thing turns out to be true, it is merely part of >the *raw material* of Harry's life just as we know that the first is. >These things don't lock him into any certain *fate*, they are merely the >starting point for his life's choices. My main reasons to doubt the Heir of Gryffindor theory are meta-textual, because JKR's "clues" are usually oblique, whilst more obvious "clues" tend to be subverted. For instance, we don't find out Lupin's first name until after he's revealed to be a werewolf; his surname alone isn't enough to be a definitive indicator, and given JKR's frequent use of flowers and plants as names, she was (perhaps deliberately) leading us up the garden path. Pulling the sword out of the hat is *such* an *obvious* clue connecting Harry with Gryffindor - how many English-speaking people (even children) are unaware of Excalibur? Furthermore, we have a context in which, both when he does the act and when it's later explained to him, Riddle is underlined to be Slytherin's Heir/Descendant. I'm therefore very suspicious: does JKR *want* us to make the connection and assume Harry to be Godric Gryffindor's Heir (on top of which, we all know he lived in Godric's Hollow as a baby), only to be laughing up her sleeve as she takes us down a very different road? That said, though, and in direct reply to Anne's comments above, there's something even more important from which everything which has happened to Harry flows and will rule his entire future life: being The Boy Who Lived. Surviving Voldemort was not a choice he made (he was hardly in a position to make choices!); furthermore, my own belief is that it wasn't even a deliberate choice Lily made, either. Yes, I know there are those who theorise that Lily "invoked" some kind of magic by sacrificing herself, but I don't subscribe to that view. It is the simple fact that she was prepared to save herself, to display the ultimate gift of love, which stumped Voldemort, the ultimate antithesis of love. The theme JKR appears to be developing from this is what choices will Harry make based on that? Will he make choices which befit his status as TBWL? Similarly, whether or not Harry is Gryffindor's Heir by blood, the ultimate question is whether he is "worthy" of that status. Is he Gryffindor's spiritual Heir, the way Riddle is currently presented not only as descended from Slytherin, but appears to live by his creed? (Actually, I'd like the story to pan out by making Slytherin out to be a Good Guy, despite having built the Chamber. OK, he hid a Basilisk in there, but Hagrid, who is presented to us as a Good Guy, also has an affinity with nasty creatures...). If Harry is related to Gryffindor, and it could well be that this was part of the substance of Trelawney's First Prediction, this is not what makes him a better person than Riddle. What makes him a better person is choosing to use his status for good rather than evil. >This leads me to something within the books which I am really hoping JKR >will take up eventually. It is quite noticable that there are really no >examples of >really good muggles anywhere. The best you can do is assume that any >number of the muggle-born and half-blood students have decent muggle >parents. It is >so noticeable to me that I am wondering if *looking down on muggles* will >be one of the prejudices taken up in the story eventually. I suspect that won't happen. The Muggle world, apart from the Dursleys, is (at this stage, at least) of no relevance to the story. The wizarding world's condescending attitude towards all things Muggle has already been well established. We know that some Muggles accept the wizarding community and magic as a force (Lily & Petunia's mum, Hermione's parents) and we, the readers, can join the dots for ourselves: the Dursleys are not typical of Muggle attitudes and behaviour, and thus JKR has no need to present us with a comparison. In terms of the meta-textual message JKR is trying to portray, the wizarding world parallels our every-day experiences, and thus including "speaking parts" for Good Guy Muggles is unnecessary. In a way, *we* are the Good Guy Muggles. On a separate but related issue, Emily F wrote: >This may seem like a silly question, but what are the odds that Godric >Gryffindor only has one heir (then two, with the birth of Harry)? I assume >that most wizarding families aren't as...numerous as the Weasleys. >Nonetheless, we're looking at MANY generations of people! There should be a >multitude of heirs, right? Perhaps I misunderstand the meaning of the word >heir, but this is something that's always bothered me about heir!Harry. > >(I realize, of course, that this argument applies equally well to Slytherin >and Riddle.) Steve (bboy_mn) replied with parallels about the rules of inheritance, but whilst they certainly can account for the "Heir" bit, they do not account for Riddle's being Slytherin's "last remaining descendant" (editorial mistake notwithstanding). I'd like to suggest a possible explanation for there being only one descendant of each of Gryffindor and Slytherin after a millennium. As Emily pointed out, the likelihood is infinitesimally small, given wizard longevity and normal procreation. However, if we take into account Slytherin values of ambition and self-promotion at all costs, I posit a situation in which Slytherins have routinely wiped out their more distant relatives, leaving only one clear line of Slytherin blood. Similarly, the rivalry between the Slytherin and Gryffindor Lines could have caused them to wipe out whole generations of Gryffindors. The Potters were perhaps an oversight by a previous generation of Slytherin descendants, a mistake which Voldemort tried to correct, culminating in attempting to kill Harry... -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who has just noticed he's been writing the above for over two hours and thinks it's time to shut up. From msbonsai at mninter.net Wed Oct 30 22:38:18 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:38:18 -0000 Subject: The voice in Harry's head Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45957 Has anyone had any thoughts on the voice in Harry's head? I know I've read of it in at least 2 of the books, the most recent example is the voice that questions "why?" when Crouch!Moody is trying to get him to jump on the desk using the Imperius Curse. But I could have sworn I've read about a voice in his head in another book as well. Sometimes I think the voice has not been a guiding voice, but I believe most of the times it is. If no one can come up with the other reference, I will look it up :o) Now my question is the voice: a. Harry's subconcious or wizard conciousness? b. Perhaps a link to another wizard helping keep watch over him, such as Dumbledore? c. a part of his father still living in him? d. Some weird thing that happened with the original fight with Voldemort? e. of no consequence and I'm way reading too much into this? :o) Julie From chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Wed Oct 30 22:57:37 2002 From: chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia=20Chrysshallie?=) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:57:37 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why the Large Age Dif. Between Charlie and Percy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021030225737.84977.qmail@web10407.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45958 --- Tamara wrote: All of the Weasley children are close in age, except Charlie and Percy.Charlie was born 9 years before Percy. So why such a large gap between the two of them? What was happening in 1967-1976 that kept the Weasley's from having children?? Because after Percy they turned them out about every two years or less. --ME : Think about Mrs. Weasley. She is basically a very nurturing person. She enjoys fussing about someone. That's her life. Now, when Bill and Charlie were little, she had 2 little kids to fuss about. The Weasley thought ok 2 kids are enough. But they grew up. I assume Bill is about 3 years older than Charlie, ie born 1964. Then he went to Hogwarts in 1975. Now Molly only has Charlie to fuss about. I picture an 8 year old Charlie to be a boy deeply fascinated by quidditch. He spent his days practising, well, flying anyway. Somehow I can't imagine Molly flying around on her broomstick... This was the time of Voldemort's reign and we know during this time Arthur spent his days and weekends working. Molly felt lonely, and frustrated because there was no one to take care of. Then the Weasley decided to have more children. Come Percy. But he was playing on his own, Charlie didn't want to play with a baby(mean as it sounds, I think that's a general attitude of a 9-10 year old kid) Then they had the twins. The twins have each other, and they team up...against poor Percy. Arthur and Molly then decided to have another one. Come Ron. But now they had 6 boys...and no girls. They then tried for a girl...and they had Ginny. So they stopped (about time too!) That's what I think anyway. Vinnia http://careers.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Careers - 1,000's of jobs waiting online for you! From lee.farley at ntlworld.com Thu Oct 31 04:14:46 2002 From: lee.farley at ntlworld.com (Lee) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 04:14:46 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The voice in Harry's head In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c28094$162258a0$06e86bd5@quack> No: HPFGUIDX 45959 Julie wrote: > Has anyone had any thoughts on the voice in Harry's head? I know > I've read of it in at least 2 of the books, the most recent example > is the voice that questions "why?" when Crouch!Moody is trying to get > him to jump on the desk using the Imperius Curse. But I could have > sworn I've read about a voice in his head in another book as well. > Sometimes I think the voice has not been a guiding voice, but I > believe most of the times it is. If no one can come up with the > other reference, I will look it up :o) I think it's in PS/SS, the first night at Hogwarts. Harry either hears a voice or has a dream telling him to go into Slytherin. He hears voices in his head all through CoS, but that turns out to be Parseltongue. Apart from that, I'm stumped. I think that the voice in his head Harry hears while fighting Imperius is/was his subconscious mind trying to fight it. His willpower, if you like. It seems the most likely explanation IMO. -LD From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com Thu Oct 31 08:46:07 2002 From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 00:46:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ced Diggory! [filk] Message-ID: <20021031084607.95318.qmail@web40304.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45960 Ced Diggory! A filk by Lilac to the tune of _Hot Diggity!_ sung by Perry Como (but you might remember some Oscar Meyer commercials from the 70's or 80's with this same tune) listen to the original at... http://www.buffnet.net/~ambrosia/page7.htm Dedicated to Jessica aka "Moonstruck" The Scene: (POA) The Gryffindor Quidditch Team?s Locker Room. Oliver Wood is talking about the last minute switch from playing Slytherin to playing Hufflepuff (because of Malfoy?s "injury")... "They?ve got a new Captain and Seeker, Cedric Diggory ?" Angelina, Alicia and Katie suddenly giggled. "What?" said Wood, frowning at this lighthearted behavior. A fun, polka-type song suddenly starts playing out of nowhere. The three girls stand up, face the team, and begin to sway back and forth together to the beat. ANGELINA, ALICIA & KATIE: Oh, Ced Diggory, Ced Diggory -- Oooh! What you do to me Oh yes, definitely! Cedric Diggory! Ced Diggory, Ced Diggory -- Oooh! What you do to me How I wish he were mine! ANGELINA: He?s that tall, handsome, good-looking guy, by the way Kinda shy, by the way -- makes me sigh, by the way All the witches adore his gray eyes, by the way We say, "Oh, how I wish he were mine!" ANGELINA, ALICIA & KATIE: Oh, Ced Diggory, Ced Diggory -- Oooh! What you do to me Oh yes, definitely! Cedric Diggory! Ced Diggory, Ced Diggory -- Oooh! What you do to me How I wish he were mine! KATIE: He?s that strong, silent type Hufflepuff, by the way Pretty buff, by the way -- up to snuff, by the way Yes, the witches like him sure enough, by the way We say, "Oh, how I wish he were mine!" Oh, Ced Diggory, Ced Diggory -- Oooh! What you do to me Oh yes, definitely! Cedric Diggory! Ced Diggory, Ced Diggory -- Oooh! What you do to me How I wish he were mine! During the time it takes for this musical interlude, Fred does a silly dance to the music as he makes his way over to the girls. As soon as he gets in front of them, he gets right in their faces and sings: FRED: He is silent because he is thick, by the way As a brick, by the way -- ain?t too quick, by the way (Turns to face Oliver) Wood, this game will be such a picnic, by the way ANGELINA, ALICIA & KATIE: You?re just jealous because he?s divine! Oh, Ced Diggory, Ced Diggory -- Oooh! What you do to me Oh yes, definitely! Cedric Diggory! Ced Diggory, Ced Diggory -- Oooh! What you do to me How I wish he were mine! Oh, Ced Diggory, Ced Diggory -- Oooh! What you do to me FRED (very irritated by now): Oh, go build him a shrine!!! ANGELINA, ALICIA & KATIE (ignoring him): Ced Diggory, Ced Diggory -- Oooh! What you do to me How I wish he were mine! (Spoken, almost like a sigh) AH, CED!! ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Professor, can you show me that blocking thing again?" Lockhart cuffed Harry merrily on the shoulder. "Just do what I did, Harry!" "What, drop my wand?" --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu Oct 31 11:53:47 2002 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:53:47 +0000 Subject: Re(FILK)The Night Voldemort Died Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45961 I'd like to interrupt my regularly scheduled program of _Harry Potter Meets the Beatles_ for this special, seasonal filk. Happy Halloween everybody! Here's to the Boy-Who-Lived! ****************************************************** The Night Voldemort Died (A Filk by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _The Night Chicago Died_) Please, somebody tell me that I'm not the only one who remembers this song! Listen to a bit of it here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Hall/9517/mymusic.html Note: When I wrote this, I imagined Percy Weasley, being just old enough to remember some of the details, recalling how it was during the time of Lord Voldemort's Reign of Terror. Percy: (Spoken) Daddy was working for the Ministry of Magic Back when things weren't okay. Back in the bad ol' days (Singing) In the shadow of candle light In our home at the Burrow So many the sleepless nights I remember it all still When the Dark Lord Voldemort And his foul Death Eater horde Fought the warlock Dumbledore And called the Wizard World to war Dark Marks floating in the sky Told that somebody else there had died Brothers, every night a death there was Brothers, what a frightening time it was Glory be! Each night our Mama cried Worried that Dad wouldn't come home alive Brothers, every night a death there was Brothers, what a frightening time it was Yes, indeed! Always wondering who'd be next To receive the Dark Lord's hex Dumbledore, he had a plan To defeat this evil man The Potter family had to hide But where betrayed from inside It's sometimes hard just to conceive It happened on All Hallows Eve So many wizards died He'd kill all those who wouldn't join his side Brothers, Voldemort was out for blood Brothers, he wasn't up to any good Glory be! With help from some treacherous spy To the Potter's house he did arrive Brothers, Voldemort was out for blood Brothers, he wasn't up to any good Yes, indeed! Mom would do nothing at all But watch the clock upon the wall Then Dad stepped out from the floo Declared the fall of You-Know-Who He was foiled by Potter's son For the time being we had won The night Voldemort died (Na-na-na na-na-na na-na-na) The night Voldemort died Brothers, how we celebrated then Brothers, hope it won't happen again Yes, indeed! The night Voldemort died (Na-na-na na-na-na na-na-na) The night Voldemort died Brothers, what a real relief was felt Brothers, no more sickening grief was dealt Glory be! The night Voldemort died (Na-na-na na-na-na na-na-na) The night Voldemort died Brothers, how we celebrated then Brothers, hope it won't happen again Yes, indeed! -Gail B....now back to our program... _________________________________________________________________ Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Oct 31 15:30:09 2002 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Anne) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 07:30:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good Muggles (was: choice over heritage/heirs) In-Reply-To: <1036028493.2507.7375.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20021031153009.46590.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45962 GulPlum wrote: > My main reasons to doubt the Heir of Gryffindor > theory are meta-textual, > because JKR's "clues" are usually oblique, whilst > more obvious "clues" tend > to be subverted. Anne (me): Okay, I think we agree on that point then: that though what happens *to* you may greatly affect the course of your life, it is your *choices* that make you who you truly are. In your original post, I thought you were saying that you doubted Harry would turn out to be G's Heir because that would work against the theme of choice. Anne in my last post: > >This leads me to something within the books which I > am really hoping JKR > >will take up eventually. It is quite noticable > that there are really no > >examples of > >really good muggles anywhere. > > It is > >so noticeable to me that I am wondering if *looking > down on muggles* will > >be one of the prejudices taken up in the story > eventually. And Gulplum: > > I suspect that won't happen. The Muggle world, apart > from the Dursleys, is > (at this stage, at least) of no relevance to the > story. >In terms of the meta-textual message > JKR is trying to > portray, the wizarding world parallels our every-day > experiences, and thus > including "speaking parts" for Good Guy Muggles is > unnecessary. In a way, > *we* are the Good Guy Muggles. > Anne: True. For the most part, I agree with you. In most ways, the muggle world is quite separated from the WW. However, it is so very much talked about in a prejudicial way that it just begs to be addressed as part of the "preconceived ideas/coming together" theme that is becoming so prominent in the story that it is being directly addressed by one of the characters (Dumbledore); the theme itself (apart from the muggle question) is no longer meta-textual. To me, it makes the idea of "good muggles" as relevant to the story as, say, "French witches". I just can't *help* thinking about it, because we are constantly reminded. I guess we will see, though, eventually. Perhaps we will both be right, and JKR will leave the question of Muggle relations as merely a hint of what the WW might take up next, after the defeat of Voldemort. Probably, as you say, there won't be any muggle heroes (darn!), but maybe some indication of the WW beginning to admit that muggles are people too! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu Oct 31 15:41:33 2002 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:41:33 -0000 Subject: A-Va-Da, Ke-Da-Vra (a filk by Ellen A.) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45963 Ellen asked me to forward this filk to HP4GU, in time for the holidays. ("I love this time of year - everyone is so full of joy and goodwill," as Linus once said while proselytizing for the Great Pumpkin). A-Va-Da, Ke-Da-Vra A Filk by Ellen Anglin To the tune of Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da by John Lennon &, Paul McCartney Hear the original at: http://www.geocities.com/michellesrockinatoz/RealAudio.html Voldemort's a Dark Lord, power on the rise, Albus is a leader for the light The Potters are the subject of a prophecy, And on Halloween there's gonna be a fight, A-va-da, Ke-da-vra, your life's gone, Ha! Give it up cuz' your life's done! A-va-da, Ke-da-vra, your life's gone, Ha! A flash of green and life is done! Voldy takes the Knight Bus to a hollow dark Has some special magic up his sleeve Gonna share it with the Potters so he blasts the door And as he gives it to them he is heard to sing; A-va-da, Ke-da-vra, your life's gone, Ha! Give it up cuz' your life's done! A-va-da, Ke-da-vra, your life's gone, Ha! A cold high laugh, your life is done! Thus Ol' Voldy invaded the Potters home, Set on killing James and his kid Tho Lily he might let alone.... (Mbaha ha ha ha ha ha!) Ol' Voldy zapped the father with a flourish grand, Turned to do the same to James young heir, But Lily chose that moment for to make her stand "No Not Harry!" Oh the Dark Lord best beware.... A-va-da, Ke-da-vra, your life's gone, Ha! Give it up cuz' your life's done! A-va-da, Ke-da-vra, your life's gone, Ha! You foolish girl, your life is done! With a flash of green the fatal spell was cast Bouncin'off the child, the spell went wild And Voldy succumbed to the blast! (Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!) Yeah, happy ever, word spreads wide and far Fireworks and dancing in the street, Celebrate the infant with the lightning scar Toast him for the Evil Lord's defeat! Yeah, A-va-da, Ke-da-vra, Voldys gone, Ha! Give a cheer! The dark reigns done! A-va-da, Ke-da-vra, Poof! He's gone!, Ha! (I A flash of green and Voldy's gone!! Sing out and Shout Huzzah! Here's to the Boy Who Lived! [Thank you, uh, ha ha ha!] - Ellen Anglin, the Pottering Beekeeper From debmclain at yahoo.com Thu Oct 31 02:52:18 2002 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie McLain) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 02:52:18 -0000 Subject: The voice in Harry's head Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45964 jastrangfeld/Julie asked: Has anyone had any thoughts on the voice in Harry's head? I know I've read of it in at least 2 of the books, the most recent example is the voice that questions "why?" when Crouch!Moody is trying to get him to jump on the desk using the Imperius Curse. But I could have sworn I've read about a voice in his head in another book as well. Sometimes I think the voice has not been a guiding voice, but I believe most of the times it is. If no one can come up with the other reference, I will look it up :o) Now my question is the voice: a. Harry's subconcious or wizard conciousness? b. Perhaps a link to another wizard helping keep watch over him, such as Dumbledore? c. a part of his father still living in him? d. Some weird thing that happened with the original fight with Voldemort? e. of no consequence and I'm way reading too much into this? ---- Julie, I have always wondered the same thing. However, when the Imperius Curse was used, for some reason I always pictured it being his father, whispering in his ear. Yet, wouldn't Harry have said something about that if that was the case, as in PoA when he could hear his parents? I am to the point where I think it may be his (wizard?) subconciousness. -Debbie From Audra1976 at aol.com Thu Oct 31 03:23:29 2002 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:23:29 EST Subject: The Heir Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45965 In a message dated 30/10/2002 16:55:50 Eastern Standard Time, pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk writes: > Possibly he's the person who will reconcile all the divisions in the > WW; the born Gryffindor with the Slytherin talents; the wizard-born > who was brought up by muggles; the heir to a pure-blood line who is > the son of a muggle-born. You mean...a child who will bring *balance* to the Fo--er, I mean, wizarding world? I have heard some Star Wars-influenced theories on where the Harry Potter books are headed. Well, I suppose I should say influenced by Joseph Campbell's "The Hero With A Thousand Faces"'s mythological hero journey which influenced Star Wars. Forgive me if this has been beaten into the ground. I am new here, but I didn't see anything about Joseph Campbell in the VFAQ or the forbidden topics. "The Hero With A Thousand Faces" tells us that the mythological hero is classically a person from whom something has been taken and/or feels there is something lacking in their life. In Harry's case, he lost his parents, and what is lacking in his life is their love and acceptance of his magical ability. The story begins with "the separation," in which the hero "ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder." Then comes "the initiation," in which "fabulous forces are encountered and a decisive victory is won." Throughout is a series of trials and revelations. All the great hero myths revolve around a transformation of consciousness. The hero starts out thinking one way, then they are challenged to think a different way through a series of trials and revelations. According to Campbell's formula, in most cases the hero will *found* something new--something material, like a city, or something like a new way of life or a new age, and share his new consciousness with his fellow men. I believe that Harry will eventually be responsible for founding a new age in the WW. The new way of thinking may be not only an end to prejudice against non-purebloods--it may even be a union of "muggles" and wizards living together openly. Audra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From notcarlos at hotmail.com Thu Oct 31 03:31:01 2002 From: notcarlos at hotmail.com (Jacob Lewis) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:31:01 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Do All Students Travel to Hogwarts by the HE? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45966 Scripsit "bess_va2000": >Otherwise, magical Moms and Dads could just drop their children off at Hogwarts via flue powder, while the Muggle-born would be at a disadvantage. By traveling together, there isn't an "other". *rolls his eyes* Really, haven't ANY of you read "Hogwarts: A History"? You /can't/ take floo powder into the School. It's not linked to the Floo Network. Of course, you /can/ use the stuff inside the castle (PoA - Snape uses it to summon Lupin) but the whole point of all the wards on the castle is to make it /incredibly/ safe, which means no floo powder, no apparating, and probably highly regulated air traffic as well (Flying Ford Anglia's notwithstanding). That's why Dumbledore had to take a /broom/ to London in PS/SS, and why Hagrid has to go down to Hogsmeade to catch the Knight Bus in PoA: you just can't get to or from Hogwarts unless you're cleared. So yeah, everybody takes the HE to Hogwarts -- and I tend to think that everyone ends up at 9 and 3/4 at King's Cross, even if you started out from, say, platform 7 at the Dublin station -- but that's just me. Hermio -er, Jacob From obby at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Oct 31 09:37:49 2002 From: obby at blueyonder.co.uk (Richard Thorp) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:37:49 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The voice in Harry's head In-Reply-To: <000101c28094$162258a0$06e86bd5@quack> References: <000101c28094$162258a0$06e86bd5@quack> Message-ID: <1370049250.20021031093749@blueyonder.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 45967 Thursday, October 31, 2002, 4:14:46 AM, Lee wrote: L> Julie wrote: >> Has anyone had any thoughts on the voice in Harry's head? I know >> I've read of it in at least 2 of the books, the most recent example >> is the voice that questions "why?" when Crouch!Moody is trying to get >> him to jump on the desk using the Imperius Curse. But I could have >> sworn I've read about a voice in his head in another book as well. >> Sometimes I think the voice has not been a guiding voice, but I >> believe most of the times it is. If no one can come up with the >> other reference, I will look it up :o) L> I think it's in PS/SS, the first night at Hogwarts. Harry either hears a L> voice or has a dream telling him to go into Slytherin. He hears voices L> in his head all through CoS, but that turns out to be Parseltongue. L> Apart from that, I'm stumped. I recon that one was Harry's subconcious dealing with the fact that the sorting hat had 'asked' him if he wanted to be in Slytherin (where "all the bad wizards" come from, according to his current perceptions) and if that made him a bad Wizard.. It could also be Voldemort trying to influence him (he was close enough by to do so, i think..) and possibly turn him around to the dark way of thinking, thus neutralising him? Not sure :) L> I think that the voice in his head Harry hears while fighting Imperius L> is/was his subconscious mind trying to fight it. His willpower, if you L> like. It seems the most likely explanation IMO. Mm, agree here, Crouch!Moody's voice was the infiltrator, not the voice asking why.. Like having an argument in your head over what to do that day, or something :) -Rich www.mindchanger.net Richard Thorp msn: obbles at hotmail.com From jprobins at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 31 15:13:12 2002 From: jprobins at ix.netcom.com (James P. Robinson III) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:13:12 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The voice in Harry's head In-Reply-To: <000101c28094$162258a0$06e86bd5@quack> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021031091100.04ebbc00@popd.ix.netcom.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45968 As the clock struck 04:14 AM 10/31/2002 +0000, Lee took pen in hand and wrote: >I think it's in PS/SS, the first night at Hogwarts. Harry either hears a >voice or has a dream telling him to go into Slytherin. I believe you are thinking of when the sorting hat is speaking in his ear during his sorting. >He hears voices >in his head all through CoS, but that turns out to be Parseltongue. Again, I did not think he was hearing the basilisk in his head, but rather that only Harry could understand the faint hissings as language. Jim From jodel at aol.com Thu Oct 31 18:49:35 2002 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:49:35 EST Subject: Sirius, Self-Absorbed? and Snape Message-ID: <57.14351073.2af2d53f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45969 Pippin says; << But Snape is heartless, Lupin is, by his own admission, a coward, and Sirius doesn't *think.* >> Oh my ghod. It's the Tin Woodman, the Lion and the Scarecrow. (Pay no attention to the snake behind the curtain...) Ack! No! I am being persecuted by visions of Dumbldore in a pouffy pink dress! The horror! The horror...! -JOdel From msbonsai at mninter.net Thu Oct 31 17:03:19 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:03:19 -0000 Subject: The Voice in Harry's head part II Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45970 Ok, let me try and get this all straight as to what I was referring to when I said Harry heard voices in his head. I was not referring to the following scene in PS/SS (which I firmly believe is Voldemort): P130 "Perhaps Harry had eaten a bit too much, because he had a very strange dream. He was wearing Professor Quirrell's turban, which kept talking to him, telling him he must transfer to Slytherin at once, because it was his destiny. Harry told the turban he didn't want to be in Slytherin; it got heavier and heavier; he tried to pull it off but it tightened painfully ?and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as he struggled with it ? then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher, Snape, whose laugh became high and cold ? there was a burst of green light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking." The initial reference I was referring to is from GoF: P231 "Why though? Another voice has awoken in the back of his brain. Stupid thing to do, really, said the voice." *snip* "No, I don't think I will, thanks, said the other voice, a little more firmly . . . no, I don't really want to . . ." And again, it helps him with Voldemort . . . P661 "I asked you whether you want me to do that again," said Voldemort softly. "Answer me! IMPERIO!" And Harry felt, for the third time in his life, the sensation that his mind had been wiped of all thought. . . . Ah, it was bliss, not to think, it was as though he were floating, dreaming . . . just answer no . . . say no . . . just answer no . . . I will not, said a stronger voice, in the back of his head, I won't answer . . . . Just answer no . . . . I won't do it, I won't say it . . . . Just answer no . . . ." Ok, then of course, the most interesting reference to the voice . . . GOF P664: "And then an unearthly and beautiful sound filled the air. . . . It was coming from every thread of the light-spun web vibrating around Harry and Voldemort. It was a sound Harry recognized, though he had heard it only once before in his life: phoenix song. It was the sound of hope to Harry . . . the most beautiful and welcome thing he had ever heard in his life. . . . He felt as though the song were inside him instead of just around him. . . . It was the sound he connected with Dumbledore, and it was almost as though a friend were speaking in his ear. . . . Don't break the connection. I know, Harry told the music, I know I mustn't." Now except for the Phoenix song, Harry doesn't hear any more about not breaking the connection for over a page, until Cedric comes out of the wand. And when he finally gets back to the tournament grounds, Dumbledore does not want him to leave with anyone. Almost as if he were there on the grounds with Harry and had heard everything already said. In COS, Riddle knows that Dumbledore sent Harry Fawkes and the sorting hat. Dumbledore states that as long as Harry is true to him, help will be available. In fact, why would they mention: COS p 319: "Help me ? help me ?Harry thought, his eyes screwed tight under the hat. Please help me ? There was no answering voice. Instead, the hat contracted, as though an invisible hand was squeezing it very tightly." Now maybe you think this was referring to the answering of the hat. But it seems to me that Harry has heard these voices that help him through things before, but I don't have time to look them all up. But here they are for you to mull over and tell me again what you think :o) Julie From bess_va at lycos.com Thu Oct 31 17:09:16 2002 From: bess_va at lycos.com (bess_va2000) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:09:16 -0000 Subject: Do All Students Travel to Hogwarts by the HE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45971 Bess: >Otherwise, magical Moms and Dads could just drop their children off at Hogwarts via flue powder, while the Muggle-born would be at a disadvantage. By traveling together, there isn't an "other". Jacob: > So yeah, everybody takes the HE to Hogwarts -- and I tend to think that everyone ends up at 9 and 3/4 at King's Cross, even if you started out from, say, platform 7 at the Dublin station -- but that's just me. > > Hermio -er, Jacob Miss Pedantic, uh Bess replies...seriously, I said *at* Hogwarts :-}. I could easily see a system where magical families reserved a table with Miss Rosemerta (spelling? I don't have my books here) for lunch, the whole family arrives to Hogsmeade by flue powder, then drops little Jennifer off at the Hogswart's gates with her trunck, or Dad still has to carry it up her dorm (Bess remembers her college dorm days...we always worried some poor father was going to have a heart attack on the stairs). I always figured Hagrid took the bus because of Buckbeak (can you see that pair going through the magical network of fireplaces?), and Dumbledore went by broom because it might be a little more private (patron at the pub says "Oh look dear, there goes Dumbledore into the fire and he's headed for the ministry. I wonder what's up?") Bess From orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 31 20:28:15 2002 From: orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com (orlaquirke2002) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 20:28:15 -0000 Subject: The Heir In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45972 Audra wrote: I believe that Harry will eventually be responsible for founding a new age in the WW. The new way of thinking may be not only an end to prejudice against non-purebloods--it may even be a union of "muggles" and wizards living together openly. Me: I don't think this would be a satisfactory conclusion. Surely the entirety of the fantasy and sci-fi genres hold on the imagination of some people (i.e. me, you, lots of others) is that the world or events described could, somewhere or somehow, be true. Why do we spend hours on the computer debating the finer points as an online community if not to make sense of how it could be true. In a way, we are sharing a dream. If the end of the series culminates in the wizarding and muggle worlds being reconciled, then that rules out the possibility of such another society existing alongside ours. I think we'd have to look deeper inside Harry's character for what the new mode of thinking will be, but I can't help feeling that an ending such as you suggest would be a dissappointing one for many of JKR's fans. Then again, JKR does write the books for herself, not specifically for her fans, and she has stated that fantasy is not her favorite genre, so maybe she doesn't understand the psychological attachment to it? Orla From buffyeton at yahoo.com Thu Oct 31 20:46:09 2002 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 20:46:09 -0000 Subject: Platform 9 and three quarters and other muggle born wizarding questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45973 Okay, when Harry went to get on Hogwarts Express for the first time, he would have never made it if it hadn't had been for Mrs. Weasley. So my question is, what about other muggle born Hogwart students? It seems the info about the platform wasn't included in the welcome letter, neither was the info on Diagon Alley and wizarding money etc. How do they find this stuff out?! From heidit at netbox.com Thu Oct 31 20:58:22 2002 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:58:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Platform 9 and three quarters and other muggle born wizarding questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <06f201c28120$583a0850$0201a8c0@Frodo> No: HPFGUIDX 45974 > -----Original Message----- > From: Tamara [mailto:buffyeton at yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 3:46 PM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Platform 9 and three quarters and > other muggle born wizarding questions > > > Real-To: "Tamara" > > Okay, when Harry went to get on Hogwarts Express for the first time, > he would have never made it if it hadn't had been for Mrs. Weasley. > So my question is, what about other muggle born Hogwart students? It > seems the info about the platform wasn't included in the welcome > letter, neither was the info on Diagon Alley and wizarding money > etc. How do they find this stuff out?! > There has been some speculation here that children who actually are born to Muggle parents get a different letter, one which gives instructions on how to get to Diagon Alley and then to the correct Platform. As Harry's parents are a witch and a wizard, the "default" would have been for him to receive the ordinary letter sent to children whose parents are Hogwarts alums. Perhaps also, Dumbledore's letter that he left with the Dursleys when Harry was 15 months old may have included such information, or at least a way to go about getting it. But of course, we've never seen the letter - as Harry has never seen the letter, so we just don't know. Heidi Nimbus - 2003 Team http://www.hp2003.org From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 31 21:00:38 2002 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:00:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Platform 9 and three quarters and other muggle born wizarding questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021031210038.85842.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45975 --- Tamara wrote: > Okay, when Harry went to get on Hogwarts Express for the first time, > he would have never made it if it hadn't had been for Mrs. Weasley. > So my question is, what about other muggle born Hogwart students? It > seems the info about the platform wasn't included in the welcome > letter, neither was the info on Diagon Alley and wizarding money > etc. How do they find this stuff out?! I think that, at the very least there is an extra letter included along with the cover page and the supplies list for Muggle-born students. Harry didn't get one, of course, because he's not Muggle-born, and his aunt and uncle already know of the existence of the wizarding world. I think it's likely that Muggle-born students also get a personal visit from either a member of the Hogwarts staff or someone from the Muggle Relations division of the MoM. I can't imagine that any parent would allow his or her child to go off to some school that they've only heard of through one letter, else. Especially not when that school claims to teach magic! Dumbledore appeared confident that the Dursleys would share the information in his letter with Harry when he was old enough, and Hagrid certainly expected Harry to be aware of certain things. We therefore didn't get to see any of the additional steps taken when dealing with Muggle-born students. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From msbonsai at mninter.net Thu Oct 31 20:52:31 2002 From: msbonsai at mninter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 20:52:31 -0000 Subject: Platform 9 and three quarters and other muggle born wizarding questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45976 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tamara" wrote: > Okay, when Harry went to get on Hogwarts Express for the first time, > he would have never made it if it hadn't had been for Mrs. Weasley. > So my question is, what about other muggle born Hogwart students? It > seems the info about the platform wasn't included in the welcome > letter, neither was the info on Diagon Alley and wizarding money > etc. How do they find this stuff out?! I guess I always assumed they thought Harry would know because Hagrid would tell him. I think they would know that muggle born wizards would need an extra explanation to getting on the track, but they were thinking that Harry was to be led on by Hagrid. We don't know what the original letter said. Julie From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Thu Oct 31 21:26:31 2002 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Iris=20FT?=) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 22:26:31 +0100 (CET) Subject: Slytherin, the Chamber and the Basilisk (Re: Choice over Heritage/Heirs) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021030224115.00a3c650@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <20021031212631.98690.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 45977 Gulplum wrote: ?(Actually, I'd like the story to pan out by making Slytherin out to be a Good Guy, despite having built the Chamber. OK, he hid a Basilisk in there, but Hagrid, who is presented to us as a Good Guy, also has an affinity with nasty creatures...).? You put it in brackets, but I think you pointed something very interesting. I don?t know if this has been debated yet: why did Slytherin build the Chamber of Secrets, on which purpose? Why did he hide the Basilisk? In the second book, the Basilisk is presented as a weapon Riddle uses to get rid of the wizards who don?t fit with his blood prejudice theories. Of course the author tells us Salazar Slytherin didn?t want muggle born wizards at Hogwarts, but would he have been able to attack or kill them, as Riddle did? There?s a big gap between an ideology and its practice. Nobody can deny that Slytherin had intolerant ideas, but there?s no proof in canons that he put them into practice. Therefore, when Riddle/Voldemort claims for Slytherin inheritance when he commits a crime, he essentially puts into practice his own interpretation of Salazar?s ideas, takes and arranges them so they fit with his personal madness and hatred. He acts exactly like Hitler, who took in Nietszche?s philosophy ideas he interpreted with his outlook to develop his own theory about a so-called ?superior race? and caution his ?final solution?. We don?t know if Slytherin would have been able to turn into a monster as Riddle did, though he was prejudiced towards muggle-born students, and rather mind-twisted. Ideas, how they grow up, how they travel through time and minds, how people put them into practice, forget them, twist them; this seems to be one of the HP series themes. But this doesn?t explain why Slytherin put a Basilisk in the Chamber of Secrets. a) We don?t have a canon proof he wanted to use it as a weapon to get rid of some of the Hogwarts? students. Or did he tamed it, trained it in secret but didn?t have the time to put his plan into practice, whether he died, whether the others (Gryffindor and Co) stopped him? So that he would have rely on his heirs to finish the dirty work he had begun. That?s classical, leaving the forthcoming generation the care of revenge; that would also explain why only a heir of Slytherin is able to open the Chamber of Secrets. b) Did he want, on the contrary, to prevent it from attacking people? That would explain why the snake is locked into the Chamber. In that case, Slytherin would indeed come out as a good guy, who protected people from the monster. Like in old legends, the Basilisk had been killing people for a long time, terrorising everybody, when Slytherin came and tamed it thanks to his Parseltongue gift, and managed to put it where it wouldn?t kill any more. c) Another solution: Slytherin hid the Basilisk in the Chamber to protect it, just as Hagrid did with Aragog or Norbert. We know Slytherin had affinities with snakes, and that he had an elitist conception of wizardry. He couldn?t have another pet than a Basilisk, the King of Serpents. The problem was this pet was deadly dangerous; even if it was tamed, it could kill only by looking. It?s easy to guess the Hogwarts community was not very keen to have such a plague lurking around, and told Slytherin to get rid of it. Poor Basilisk, Slytherin had to hide it. I don?t think this solution fits with JKR?s project, but I enjoy the parallelism Gulplum made between Slytherin and Hagrid. Imagine old Slytherin saying ?Where?s mummy?? to the new born Basilisk Or being one of Hagrid?s ancestors, and transmitting him his affinity with monsters Read that paragraph and forget it! Well, that?s all I had to say on this topic. I still don?t know why Slytherin built the Chamber of Secrets, and why he put a Basilisk inside. Any idea? Iris Yahoo! 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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Oct 31 22:01:03 2002 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 22:01:03 -0000 Subject: Sirius, Self-Absorbed? and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45978 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "c_voth312" wrote: > This touches on my theory, which is that the ultimate difference > between Snape and Sirius is merely a matter of perception. To Harry, > Sirius is kind while Snape isn't, and so to him the former is a good > person while the latter isn't. For fans of the characters, having > the two in conflict triggers the instinct that one must be "right" > and therefore the other "wrong", so the lines are drawn according to > whichever one the individual gravitates towards. > > ~Christi, who likes both Sirius *and* Snape and can't wait to see > what happens when they're forced to work towards the same end... I agree. I think that part of the reason Snape and Black can't stand each other is that they are so very much alike. They see themelves in each other (probably don't realize it either) which just fans the flames. It's difficult in reading the books to get past Harry's perception He LIKES Sirius so no matter what he does he gives it a postive spin even though we've seen him violent, vindictive and sneaky. The Prank is startling less in it's intention to harm Snape than in what it would have done to Remus had James not pulled the plug on it when he did. Remus was Sirius' friend! Harry does NOT like Snape so no matter what he does (including saving his life, the ungrateful brat) manages to get presented in a negative way. Snape is vindictive and sneaky, possibly violent as well although he got knocked out in the SS before being able to demonstrate that trait. Melpomene (who votes for Snape) From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Oct 31 22:57:46 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 22:57:46 -0000 Subject: FILK: Dark Mark Calling Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45979 ...and the Beatles fest continues... Dark Mark Calling A filk by Pippin To the tune of All My Loving by the Beatles ~for Audra and Maria~ The Scene: The graveyard in Little Hangleton {VOLDEMORT presses a long white finger to the mark on Wormtail's arm} Wipe your eyes while you're stressing the Dark Mark I'm pressing I'm going to find out who's been true You Death Eaters at play While the Dark Lord's away You'll feel the Dark Mark calling you Dark Mark calling I will send for you Dark Mark calling I'll find out who's true With my face built for hissing The lips I am missing I'll tell all my schemes to the crew For though I've been away I am now back to stay And the Dark Mark is calling to you Dark Mark calling I will send for you Dark Mark calling Yeah, it's You Know Who My robes you'll be kissing While I'm reminiscing I'll make an example or two And then with an AK I'll blow Potter away And then all my dreams will come true Dark Mark calling I will send for you Dark Mark calling Yeah, it's You Know Who Dark Mark calling oh Dark Mark calling Dark Mark calling I have sent for you From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Thu Oct 31 23:03:51 2002 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 23:03:51 -0000 Subject: where was hagrid and harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45980 Hi As we have worked out, there is a missing period of time between voldemorts fall and when Hagrid delived harry to Dumbledore at the dursley's. However, so far I have heard no thoeries that completly fit the facts. Here is my try at intrepreting the facts. When Hagrid arrived at the dursley's, he meets dumbledore, who knows that hagrid needs to hide. Without dumbledore, any death eater to attack hagrid and harry and take a measure of revenge for Voldemort's fall. (I know that MAGIC DISHWASHER implies that voldemort had a grand plan, but to assume it was put into place immedently after his fall is streching things too far.) However, where to hide? My surgestion is that hagrid did not hide, per se, but stepped forward a day in time. While dumbledore was setting up the defences at the Dursley's, hagrid used a time turner to move forward in time and then flew to the dursley's. Before time traveling, he must have met sirus, who gave him the bike. If Hagrid is lititary not on earth, the DEs can't possibully find him After delivering Harry, he must have gone back in time again, and met MacGonagol, and told her where dumbledore could be found. This has an interesting implication. If this thoery is correct, Harry is one day 'ahead' of where he should be in time. Could he be drawn back a day in time when voldemort attacks? Go back a day and escape while voldemort has not set up whereever they are fighting? Any thoughts? Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 31 23:06:37 2002 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 23:06:37 -0000 Subject: The Heir In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 45981 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Audra1976 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 30/10/2002 16:55:50 Eastern Standard Time, > pipdowns at e... writes: > > Possibly he's the person who will reconcile all the divisions in > > the WW; the born Gryffindor with the Slytherin talents; the > >wizard-born who was brought up by muggles; the heir to a pure- > > blood line who is the son of a muggle-born. > Audra replies: > You mean...a child who will bring *balance* to the Fo--er, I mean, >wizarding world? I have heard some Star Wars-influenced theories >on where the Harry Potter books are headed. Star Wars???? Is that in Star Wars? Sorry, I have seen the Star Wars movies (well, not the most recent one), but I haven't memorised the script. I don't think I could, the dialogue's truly dreadful. And you'd be amazed at the dreadful dialogue I *can* memorise. [Memo to any of George Lucas's lawyers - this is a JOKE. Honest.] > Well, I suppose I should say influenced by Joseph > Campbell's "The Hero With A Thousand Faces"'s mythological hero > journey which influenced Star Wars. Ah. I haven't read that either. It is in my bookcase, and every so often I take it out and look at it - but I've always put it back in favour of some lighter reading. Like ' Understanding relational databases'.[grin] I was actually thinking more of Christian theology when I talked about Harry's purpose being to reconcile all divisions. And, of course, of the point that he represents all the divisions of the Wizarding World within himself. The WW, you see, has decided that instead of bringing magic to the world, it would rather withdraw within itself, creating its own society; that society being designed to preserve and improve magic. Provided, that is, you're a wizard. If you're a muggle, tough. Magic is concealed from muggles, kept firmly within the WW. Muggle-borns get allowed in (with reluctance) if they have magical talent, and if they're willing to conform to the WW customs and laws. Muggles are regarded with attitudes that vary from amused condescension to outright hatred. Muggles who know about wizards (most don't) regard wizards with attitudes that vary from thinking they ought to burn them at the stake to thinking they're a bunch of complete nutters. The Christian theology bit is Mark Chapter 4 Verses 21 - 22: ..."Does anyone ever bring in a lamp and put it under a bowl or under a bed? Don't they put it on the lampstand? Whatever is hidden away will be brought out in the open and whatever is covered up will be uncovered." which suggests to me that this separation from the muggle world, this hiding of magic's 'light' from muggles is wrong. It may have been originally made for what seemed sensible reasons [persecution by muggles], but the choice of the WW to withdraw is a) depriving muggles of the advantages of magic b) allowing them to be persecuted by evil wizards without understanding what the heck is going on [the Roberts's, anyone?] and c) depriving them of a sense of mystery and of a great deal of, for want of a better term, 'wonder'. 'Light', whether you want to call it God, or gods, or spirituality, or magic, or just a plain sense that there is more to the world than can be seen with our eyes and heard with our ears, should not be hidden. And Harry, who is half-blood, brought up by muggles, and with his closest friends both muggle-born and pure-blood, straddles the two worlds. So he might be the person to bring the light of magic out from under its bowl (or bushel, if you want the King James Version). Further, the WW has segregated itself within itself. We all recognise the obvious 'mudblood/halfblood/pureblood' prejudices. There is another prejudice, which is against the Slytherins. Now the Slytherins undoubtedly contain a large number of very nasty lots indeed. Frankly, they're not very nice. Even Trustworthy!Snape is distinctly Not Nice. The group they correspond to in the four Christian gospels would probably be the tax-collectors, who were also Not Nice, being a) agents of the Roman occupying power and b) a bunch of extortionists who would collect far more tax than required, pocket the difference and live very nicely on the proceeds. However, Slytherin is described by as a house with a 'noble'history. [McGonagall's speech to the new first years in PS/SS]. Salazar Slytherin was able to work with the other founders for some of his career. Slytherin has been part of Hogwarts for 1000 years. JKR appears to be implying that the Slytherins should be handled by inclusion, not exclusion. The Christian theology bit here is twofold. One, Jesus dealt with the tax collectors of his day by including them, not excluding them. By eating with them, by making a reformed tax-collector one of his close disciples, by telling pointed parables that said 'whatever you have done in the past, the important thing is for you to decide to work for good. It doesn't matter at what point in your life you decide it - the important thing is to make the decision.' Dumbledore is trying to do this [Snape]. But he doesn't always get it right [The Dissing the Slytherins scene where he springs the Gryffindor victory on them at the Leaving Feast]. Harry, if he gets over the '*all* Slytherins are evil' prejudice,might actually be better at including Slytherins, because he has the Slytherin qualities that made the Sorting Hat want to put him in the House. Harry might actually understand the Slytherins a lot better than Dumbledore does [if he lets himself try]. And [theology again], he *should* be trying to reclaim House Slytherin - it's the moral thing to do. Because the second Christian theology bit would be the argument that it is actually the Slytherins who are most in danger from Voldemort. Voldemort will destroy the lives of his enemies - but he will destroy the very souls of his supporters. And if you think killing people is worse than corrupting them, I would invite you to consider Cedric Diggory, whose death has both caused pain [for those who loved or liked him] and been a rallying cry. Then compare his death with the corruption of Peter Pettigrew [o.k., he's a Gryffindor, but he's the most obvious example]; who has betrayed the Potters, orphaned Harry, killed 12 people, caused Sirius to be falsely imprisoned, betrayed Bertha Jorkins to her torture and death, killed Cedric - and so on, and on, and on. An excluded, hated, despised House Slytherin is fertile ground for Voldemort. And when Voldemort is destroyed, it will still be fertile ground for the next dark wizard who comes along. Voldemort has to be defeated - but Slytherin has to believe that it's members who fought against Voldemort will be welcomed back into the WW. And possibly, it has to believe that the next time it fights Gryffindor for the Quidditch Cup, *some* of the Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws will decide to root for them. ;-) [Back to Joseph Campbell] > Forgive me if this has been > beaten into the ground. I am new here, but I didn't see anything > about Joseph Campbell in the VFAQ or the forbidden topics. I think it's been mentioned in the past, but since I [and probably a lot of other listies] don't know much about Campbell, feel free to carry on. > > "The Hero With A Thousand Faces" tells us that the mythological > hero is classically a person from whom something has been taken > and/or feels there is something lacking in their life. In Harry's > case, he lost his parents, and what is lacking in his life is > their love and acceptance of his magical ability. The story > begins with "the separation," in which the hero "ventures forth > from the world of common day into a region of supernatural > wonder." > Then comes "the initiation," in which "fabulous forces are > encountered and a decisive victory is won." Throughout is a > series of trials and revelations. All the great hero myths > revolve around a transformation of consciousness. The hero starts > out thinking one way, then they are challenged to think a > different way through a series of trials and revelations. I would think that any great novel revolves around a transformation of consciousness (and quite a few not-very-great ones). Elizabeth Bennett in 'Pride and Prejudice', for example, while not wandering into a region of supernatural wonder, is challenged to think in a different way. I keep remembering that we are only half-way through the entire sequence. Harry is certainly growing up ? but possibly the challenge to 'think in a different way' is going to come in the next few books. > > According to Campbell's formula, in most cases the hero will > *found* something new--something material, like a city, or > something like a new way of life or a new age, and share his new > consciousness with his fellow men. I believe that Harry will > eventually be responsible for founding a new age in the WW. The > new way of thinking may be not only an end to prejudice against > non-purebloods--it may even be a union of "muggles" and wizards > living together openly. > > Audra Hear, hear. So long as he doesn't have to die to do it. Or perhaps, so the fantasy world remains intact, the books will end at the point where Harry is about to *start* the movement for founding the new age, and new way of thinking for the WW. So the readers can always imagine it as 'just about to happen', whenever they may be reading the books. Pip!Squeak > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Oct 31 23:38:02 2002 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:38:02 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who were the Potters? (Trelawney's prediction/ voice in Harry's head References: Message-ID: <016d01c28136$8e8fc8c0$aba2cdd1@istu757> No: HPFGUIDX 45982 twister10_2000 wrote: > What exactly *was* Trelawney's first Prediction? I remember the > prediction she makes at the end of the third book, but for some > reason, cannot remember a mention of a another _real_ prediciton. > Would anyone mind pointing out where in the text it's cited...or what > exactly it is? Okay, I think that's been pointed out, that we don't know what it was. But I'm going to throw my two cents in here. First of all, whatever the prediction was, it has to have already come to pass. Or else the second one couldn't have been the second. In my mind, it can't be something like "a child born to James Potter will be Voldemort's downfall" or whatever. Now, in theory, yes, baby Harry did destroy Voldemort. Temporarily. But if that was the first prediction, then by the time the second came to pass, the first was then null and void. Because Voldemort was no longer destroyed once he regained a human form. Unless, of course, the whole human form thing is going to destroy him, along with the link to Harry, which would make both accurate. But it doesn't look as though he's destroyed where we stand now, after GoF. Am I making any sense at all? I always thought it would turn out to be a prediction either for something bad (the rise of Voldemort?) or something stupid, just to throw us off. Like, I don't know, that Dumbledore would stump his toe walking down the stairs. Something like that. As for who the Potters were, I think they're bound to be something bad there. Not sure which one. Maybe one was a spy, but not both, maybe both were spies but turned on Voldemort, etc. In my mind, for JKR to deliberately not let us in on their past any earlier than OoP (at the earliest), there has to be something big there. Really big, jaw dropping, etc. Julie writes: > Now my question is the voice: > > a. Harry's subconcious or wizard conciousness? This would be the logical assumption. > Perhaps a link to another wizard helping keep watch over him, such > Dumbledore? I doubt it, or else he'd at some point recognize the voice. > a part of his father still living in him? Or his mother perhaps? But surely Harry would've noted that it was a female voice. Which makes it more likely that it's a male voice, since he didn't note it as significant. I think whatever the voice is, whether it's his own subconscious that is just stronger than others, or a remnant of his parents, it is what helps him overcome things like the Imperious in particular. Richelle **************************************************************************** **** "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." ---- Lady Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring **************************************************************************** ****