Magical protection -- the Dursleys

[marephraim]

No: HPFGUIDX 44953

Barb P writes:

> Exactly.  When he said that the Dursleys "will be able to explain 
everything" and mentions the letter, he is clearly assuming that 
they will do this.  We have no indication that the Dursleys have 
shown him this letter.  He was making an assumption (that they would 
follow his suggestions, obviously included in the letter). <

Forgive me. You obviously didn't see the <g> in which I was 
attempting to be funny. I'm not trying to upset anyone on this list, 
just trying to fit in.

However, does your reply address the point that Dumbledore doesn't 
appear to care how Harry's treated, even after knowing about it?

Barb P writes:
> 
> MarEphraim wrote:
>  
> Now assuming that the Fidelius Charm was used for Harry,  
> 
> Me [Barb P]:
> 
> This is assuming quite a lot.  

I may misremember on this one, but I believe the speculation about 
Fidelius was already in the conversation. I attempted to address it 
on the merits of what is actually said in canon about it.

Barb P writes:

>Considering that Voldemort called the protections on him "ancient 
magic," which is not a phrase used to describe the Fidelius Charm, 
and that numerous magical people of good intent have no trouble 
finding Harry <

MarEphraim writes:

You-Know-Who was refering to his mother's sacrifice that had 
protected Harry from his malevolent touch (see GoF Chapter 23 "The 
Death Eaters," UK, pb, p 566).

Not wishing to push the Fidelius speculation much further on this 
topic (hoping that JKR will eventually settle the issue in future 
books), I would submit that 'numberous magical people of good 
intent have no trouble finding Harry' doesn't really preclude the 
use of Fidelius to protect him while at Privet Dive, when we look at 
whatcanon says about it. 

For this reason: Harry has spent a lot of time with Ron and may well 
have told him where he lived. If Fidelius works by allowing the 
Secret-Keeper to have absolute confidentiality over the information 
in question, we still can't exclude that the particular wizard that 
is the subject of the spell would not also know where he/she was. It 
wouldn't prevent the wizard in question from giving out the 
information him/herself. This might offer an explanation how Ron and 
brothers were able to find him. 

That someone not privy to the secret at the center of Fidelius could 
not find the wizard in question "if he had his nose pressed against" 
the window (PoA, UK, pb p 153) would not violate the possibility 
regarding Harry at the Dursley's precisely because of the 
distinction. The one was not privy to the secret, while the others 
(Ron and brothers in the example used) were. Harry had obviously 
told Ron. We do know that Ron knows the physical muggle address and 
phone number as the Weasleys send Harry a muggle post letter. (GoF, 
UK, pb, p32f)

Barb P writes:
 
> I believe you are correct about this [Ms Figg as a protectress], 
and it is yet another clue that the Fidelius Charm is not involved. 
The magic seems to have something specifically to do with Harry 
staying with relatives, so when the relatives are not available, 
someone who is a witch masquerading as a Muggle is called in to 
protect him until the stronger source of protection can return. < 

I'll still hold out for Fidelius on this one. If Fidelius in this 
instance is focused on "Harry is living at 4 Privet Drive" it is yet 
of no use as a protection for him when he's in school, out shopping 
with Aunt Petunia, etc.. That's when Ms Figg would be needed.

Also, I think the magic that has "something specifically to do with 
Harry staying with relatives" is stretching Dumbledore's comments at 
the end of PS about why He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named couldn't touch 
Harry. 

Barb P writes:
 
> We have no reason to believe this.  To twist things like this just 
so that it appears Harry is under the protection of the Fidelius 
Charm is rather convoluted, IMO.<

MarEprhaim writes:

No twisting involved. The Flint comment was just that, an off hand 
one about other possibilities related to PS.

I'm just trying to logically follow the possibility of Fidelius' use 
as it is actually described in canon. I think whether or not it was 
used regarding Privet Drive (and I'm inclined to beleive it possibly 
was), the interpretation of what Fidelius does or does not do as 
described by several people on this list doesn't really follow what 
canon tells us about it. Rather, people seem to be taking a specific 
instance of its use and generalizing that this is all it can be used 
for. Its possible assistance is both extended and contracted unless 
we take seriously what Prof Flitwick actually says about it.

Barb P writes: 

> Ah, but the description of the Fidelius Charm says it hides people 
from anyone but the Secret Keeper, not just people planning to do 
magical mischief.  It doesn't fit.<

MarEphraim writes:

Actually this is not what it says in canon. It is what the Harry 
Potter Lexicon says about it: "Complex and powerful charm that hides 
a person or persons completely; their location is known only to 
their designated 'Secret Keeper.'"
(http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/spells_f.html#Fidelius ) 

What canon says about it (as I quoted in post 44937) is that it 
involves "the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, 
living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or 
Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of 
course, the Secret-Keepr chooses to divulge it." (POA, Chapter 
10, "The Marauder's Map", UK pb, p 152) Note that this has to do 
with _specific_ _information_. It could be any specific piece of 
information.  

I bid all look up the quoted information. I'm not saying Fidelius 
was the only protection I'm saying it may well be part of the 
protection. It may not eventually be shown by JKF to have been used 
but it is truly not inconsistent to say it could have done.

I'm sorry Barb, and I don't want to offend you or anyone else on 
this list as I feel privileged to be part of it, but you haven't 
addressed the issue because you've misinterpreted what canon says 
the Fidelius Charm does.

MarEprhaim