Catching up: MAGIC DISHWASHER

[Grey Wolf]

No: HPFGUIDX 45310

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., GulPlum <hpfgu at p...> wrote:
> At 10:49 13/10/02 +0000, Grey Wolf wrote:
> 
> >The last attacks on MAGIC DISHWASHER seem to have based on the fact
> >that some of the listees believe that Dumbledore in it is no better
> >than Voldemort ("ruthless puppet-mastering", in words of Marina).
> >This couldn't be further from the truth. Dumbledore has *never*
> >treated any of his allies as pupets in MAGIC DISHWASHER, and I
> >challange all those who have been so free with the insults to find a
> >single example.
> 
> Two words for you: Cedric Diggory. There appears to be no indication 
> whatsoever that he was aware of what he was letting himself in for.

Nor did Dumbledore! I must have made this same point in every other 
post by now: Dumbledore didn't know about the Portkey!Cup twist. He 
probably knew that Voldemort would give a try at the tasks in PS, and 
allowed Harry to choose whether to go for it or not. He knew about the 
CoS, possibly the nature of the beast too (it's pretty obvious, after 
all), but doesn't know about the diary or the entrances to the chamber 
(and CoS isn't part of MD anyway). He engineers all the SS in PoA. But 
the mastermind after the events in GoF is Voldemort, through 
Crouch!Moody. I have always mantained that no-one wanted Cedric to go: 
not Dumbledore (if he had known what was about to happen), not 
Crouch!Moody (interesting puzzle: what would Crouch's actions be if 
Cedric had taken the oportunity to win on his own?).

Marina added:
> I'll throw in two more words: Sirius Black.  Still a hunted 
> fugitive, because Wormtail got away.

Sirius accepts that. Dumbledore has a little chat with him, in which I 
expect many things got explained. The thing he dislikes most of his 
circunstance, I think, is not being able to take Harry with him, but 
that would've been impossible anyway, since Harry is taken to the 
Dursleys for protection. Notice that, at no point (except, as with 
Snape, when shaking hands with him) does Sirius express any sort of 
disconfort about his circunstance. He understands the necessity of it, 
and accepts his place in the plans.

There are, in fact, ways for Sirius to gain liberty: Harry would be 
pleased to declare that he has seen Peter alive and well, but for 
Sirius is better to be "disapeared" for the time being - and to not 
have made public his animagus form. Since he never raises the question, 
he must understand and accept the necessity for it, and probably even 
he himself suggested it, since it's the best for his own and Harry's 
safety.

> And that doesn't even begin to take into account all the innocent 
> bystanders who are going to get swatted by Voldemort in the years 
> between his re-embodiments and the final confrontation with Harry.
> 
> Marina

You cannot blame Dumbledore for the actions of Voldemort, anymore than 
you could blame anyone else. That phrase right there I read it as 
"Dumbledore is dark because Voldemort likes to kill people". Let's say 
that Dumbledore hadn't proded Voldemort into using the potion: 200 
years from then, Voldemort finds another way of resurrecting (by 
rediscovering the PS, for example), makes a come back when no-one even 
remembers him anymore, and this time he is truly immortal. What would 
be the result? That you could say bye bye to the entire muggle 
population, and to anyone else who dared opose Immortal!Voldemort. Not 
a pleasing perspective.

But anyway, you cannot say that Dumbledore is evil because he has been 
forced to fight evil. He's not even using unforgivables, like the MoM.
 
> This is one of my big problems. Just what is Snape's role in the SS 
> meant to be? Lupin was there and was doing a magnificent job of 
> keeping things under control until Snape arrives. Despite being one 
> of the "old crowd" and clearly quite powerful in his own right, was 
> Lupin not trustworthy enough not to manage to get things done 
> according to the Master Plan without Snape's involvement? What was 
> Snape's involvement *meant* to achieve, and what *did* it achieve 
> which could not have been achieved by Lupin alone?

Didn't Luipin prove beyond all doubt in that scene that he's not to be 
trusted? He seems a little forgetful, to me (and he's my fav 
character... a big surprise, ain't it? ;-) ). No, Snape was there for 
another reason: Peter musn't suspect that he's been allowed to escape, 
or Voldemort could hear about it. It *has* to look like Peter escapes 
on his own, and it has to seem that no-one notices him or even knows 
that he's still alive. By introducing Snape into the scene, Dumbledore 
overrules any possible declaration of Werewolf!Lupin and 
Convicted!Sirius, in case either were forced to declare (Dumbledore 
won't even force them to lie, but he's perfectly capable of using his 
enemie's weapons against them: in this case, the WW's prejudices).

> Incidentally, although I've not looked into all the intricacies of 
> M.D. (of whatever variant), I've read the earlier posts referred to 
> before in the current discussion (though not the replies they 
> generated). One thing that strikes me is that, whether consciously or 
> not, the main function of M.D. appears to be to give Snape a more 
> "honourable" function in the story to date than canon would imply at 
> first glance. Whilst I absolutely agree that Snape is basically an 
> honourable character, I disagree with some of the "white-washing" 
> from which he *appears* to benefit under M.D. I get the impression
> that some people have difficulty with the position that he might 
> want to want the best for Harry & Co and be prepared to save their 
> lives, despite hating them. I see no inherent contradiction in that 
> characterisation but I *do* have a problem with making Snape the hero > of just about every scene in which he berates the Trio by giving him 
> an ulterior good motive. ;-)

You know, I had never nboticed that fact. I can't stand the guy, 
myself. I can asure you that it was never my intention to make him look 
"good" or "white-whased". He's just someone who knows clearly his 
duties, and the reason he has to do them: he owes Dumbledore his life, 
and is paying back. He might not have any moral code worthy of that 
name, but he knows what his duties are, and will act acocrding to them.

At any rate, I hope you realize that by saying that you don't like MD 
because you don't like our canon-based (by you own words) 
characterisation of Snape you are indulging in meta-thinking, so there 
is nothing I can do to change your mind.

> --
> GulPlum AKA Richard, who is reluctant to point out for Grey Wolf's 
> edification that the English word is "iMmortality", not  
> "iNmortality". errr... "hope that helps". :-)

Yes, yes, I'm sorry. I've been told before, but in my own language "m" 
can only go before vowels, "p" and "b". Any other letters get an "n". 
It's very difficult to change after so many years and remember that it 
is not so. I'll work on it, though. Thanks, and don't be afraid to 
correct frequent mistakes: after all, I'm writing in an alien language.

Hope that helps,

Grey Wolf