TBAY: Weasley Predisposition To Imperius?

Thu Oct 17 00:08:30 UTC 2002

No: HPFGUIDX 45444

Elkins smiles across the sand to Lilac, Nicole and Gail, who are 
standing hesitantly at the shores of Theory Bay, all three of them 
decked out in CONNIVING CHICK'S REVENGE life-jackets.  She waves 
shyly at them.  People who can filk always make Elkins feel 
unaccountably shy, as she herself cannot tell a balalaika from a 
theorbo, a fluegelhorn from a clarion, a celesta from a harmonium, a 
lithophone from a marimba.  

Although every once in a while, when the wind is southerly and the 
weather clear, she *can* manage to discern a hawk from a hand-saw.  

Just.

********************************************************

Lilac (also sporting a set of FAT CHANCE AT BALL water wings, just 
for good measure) wrote:

> Here's one thought I had about this...what if Arthur was under 
> Imperius *before* Ron and Ginny were born and that *bits of Imperio 
> magic* were passed along, not so much genetically as it were, but 
> *magically*? 

And Anna suggested something very similar, when she proposed that 
Neville might have somehow been magically affected by his parents' 
exposure to the Cruciatus.

Hmmm.  

Frightened by Imperius in utero, eh?  

(Or, in Neville's case, frightened by Cruciatus in *retroactive* 
utero.)

Well, it's possible.  It does strike me, though, that in terms of the 
thematic emphasis on blood vs choice, the distinction between a 
genetic predisposition and one caused by the magical equivalent of 
parental chromosomal damage is really moot.  In either case, you're 
still talking about a predisposition which is beyond the individual's 
control and not even strictly speaking a matter of "nurture," or of 
upbringing.  It's still a heritable condition, even if it is not 
genetically determined.  Even in the real world, many of the things 
that we believe to be "heritable" are now believed to be not 
*strictly* genetically determined, but also largely a matter of 
somatic environmental factors, like parental hormonal balance 
and body chemistry and the like.  

So I don't know if I think that there's all that much difference, 
really, between a genetic magical predisposition and an 
"environmental" one that nonetheless has an inescapable and quasi-
somatic effect on children.  It comes to exactly the same thing, 
doesn't it?

I'm not really all that concerned, though.  I don't honestly think 
that JKR is trying to make a case for individual volition being able 
to conquer *everything.* That Harry is small and agile is a matter of 
physical inheritance, as is the fact that Hagrid is enormous and very 
strong, as is the fact that the children of muggles are usually 
muggle, while the children of wizards are usually magical -- Squibs 
exist, but they are rare, even more rare than Muggle-born witches and 
wizards, according to Ron.  

I think that the text emphasizes quite strongly the notion that it is 
what one chooses to *do* with ones particular talents that matters 
the most.  I don't think that the text anywhere implies that 
heritable conditions do not exist, or that heredity does not play a 
significant role when it comes to the particular talents and 
weaknesses that one has to work with. 

Would it damage the books on the thematic level, though, if it were 
to emerge that some people are more vulnerable to the Imperius Curse 
than others for reasons other than inherent weakness of will?

I guess that all depends.  Do we feel that it damages the books on 
the thematic level that Harry seems to have been blessed with an 
inborn *talent* for resisting the Imperius Curse?

Actually, to be quite honest, sometimes I do rather feel that way 
about Harry and his Imperius resistance.  It bothers me a bit that 
he's got that.  I think that I would have liked it a lot better, in 
some ways, if JKR hadn't given him that particular talent.

But I can live with it.  And if I can live with Harry's freakish 
native talent for shrugging off the Imperius, then I guess that I 
could also live with the idea that some people might have to work 
even harder than everyone else if they want to break free of the 
curse.  

It's not fair, no, but then, if I had to pick the one thing that I 
think that JKR does the very *best* in these books, I would probably 
cite the clear-eyed yet compassionate approach she takes to that one
fundamentally unpalatable truth: Life Just *Isn't* Fair.

------------

Richelle, however, points out that we do have canonical evidence that 
fathers and sons do not always exhibit the same facility with 
Imperius resistance.

Richelle:

> Okay, I have one problem with this. There's both Barty Crouch Sr 
> and Jr with the Imperius Curse. It took Jr years to break it, 
> whereas Sr broke it in a matter of months.

True.  Really, strength of will doesn't seem to have ever been one of 
young Barty's personal strengths, does it?  He went completely to 
pieces at his sentencing.  Harry observes him in the Penseive 
reacting far more dramatically to the dementors than his co-
defendents seem to.  He was on his death bed after only a year in 
Azkaban.  And by the end of GoF, at any rate, he's also mad as a 
hatter, which in the fictive world, if not the real one, is often 
indicative of a failure of will -- as, for that matter, is allowing 
oneself to be corrupted by Dark Wizards in the first place.  Crouch 
Sr, on the other hand, is rather consistently depicted as quite 
strong-willed, if also corrupt in his own way.

Then, young Barty didn't *look* a whole lot like his father either, 
did he? 

Thematic consistency, Jo!  Thematic consistency!  For God's sake, is 
it really all that much to ask?

Oh, well.  I guess that we really can't complain too much about the 
fault line, can we?  After all, if it weren't for that little quirk 
of geology, then this Bay wouldn't even exist.   

-------------

Could Lucius have targetted Ginny in part because he knew that she 
would be unusually vulnerable to the Diary's effects?

Lilac:

> OOOHHH, one more thought...is this why Lucius picked Ginny in 
> particular? Because he knew that she would be susceptible because 
> he put Arthur under Imperio 15-or-so years ago? Things that make 
> you go hmmmmm...

Hmmmmm, indeed!

I've always found myself curious about Lucius' plans for that Diary, 
actually. The timing of his slipping it to Ginny always seems to 
suggest to me that it was actually a spur of the moment decision, 
that Lucius was inspired by seeing the Weasleys there in the shop 
(not to mention by his brawl with Arthur and his irritation with the 
recent raids on his manor), and that he acted on that sudden impulse.

But if that's true, then one can't help but wonder what the 
*original* plan was supposed to be.  Did he originally intend to use 
Draco to get the Diary to Hogwarts?  That seems unlikely, given that 
he went out of his way to warn Draco to stay well out of the entire 
affair.  Also, he did bring the Diary with him to Diagon Alley, which 
seems to suggest that it had been his plan from the very start to 
slip it into *some* student's kit.

I think that he meant to give it to Harry.  From the very start, it 
is *Harry* Dobby identifies as particularly endangered by the Diary 
plot, and it is Harry Dobby tries to keep away from Hogwarts by any 
means possible.  Lucius also might well have suspected that Harry 
might have inherited Voldemort's Parseltongue talent, just as that 
shrewd calculating look that Snape throws Harry in the Duelling Scene 
suggests that Snape might similarly have some inkling about how
that entire dynamic works.  After all, we are given to understand 
that just like Snape, Lucius Malfoy does know an awful lot about the 
Dark Arts.

My feeling is that Harry was the intended recipient for the Diary, 
and that Lucius changed his plan at the last minute out of pure 
malice and spite.

Of course, that doesn't mean that he couldn't have known all about 
Arthur's tangle with Imperius, or even suspected that Arthur's 
children might be vulnerable.  But I don't think that Ginny was his 
original choice to serve as the conveyor of Riddle's Diary to 
Hogwarts. 

---------------

Could a Weasley vulnerability to Imperius have been what Crouch/Moody 
was hinting at when he refused to give Ron credit for potential Auror 
talent?

Lilac asked:

> Could this also be the reason why Moody *does not* tell Ron he 
> would make a good Auror? Because it's difficult for Ron to even 
> overcome the after effects of the Imperius? 

Huh.  I suppose that Crouch/Moody's comments *do* usually have more 
than one meaning, so it's possible that that was indeed the "Moody 
meaning," if you see what I mean.

As for the *Crouch* meaning, though, I've always been extremely 
partial to Charis Julia's analysis of Crouch's evaluation of the 
Trio's Auror talents -- so partial, in fact, that I've been seething 
with envy over it for *months* now.  I wish that I had written it 
myself.  I'd paraphrase it for you, but I couldn't possibly do it 
justice, so let me just give you the link to Charis' post:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39064

That's my favored interpretation.  I also think that Crouch was 
trying to stir up trouble by refusing to give Ron the stroking he so 
obviously wanted there.  He hoped to make Ron feel inadequate, and to 
set off his envy.  He was being cruel.

But it is true that Crouch's statements almost always carry two 
separate meanings. They can usually be read at face value as well as 
at the second level.  So perhaps Real!Moody genuinely *would* have 
passed on advising Ron to consider a career as an Auror.  Because of 
the Imperius?  Could be.

----------

Lilac:

> I think Veronica and Elkins have a pretty water-tight vessel 
> floating now. However, I do like the 7th Son theory, so I hope your 
> trimaran does have a cabin so I can visit there. That is, if I ever 
> brave the waters of theory bay. <sighs>

Hey, Veronica's even letting the Operative!Arthur people have berths, 
even though they spend half of their time picking on the Auror!Arthur 
brigade and the other half trying to scuttle the trimaran 
altogether.  She's a regular old Dumbledore, is Captain Veronica.  
So I'd say that there's sure to be plenty of room on that ship for  
Seventh Son adherents.

I just don't know about this "Arthur Weasley *used* the Imperius 
Curse" spec that Eloise has been handsawing out there, though.  I 
think that one just might qualify as a mutiny.  

-- Elkins, who only really cares for Seventh Son when they serve it 
up on the Trimaran as a side dish to a big bloody helping of 
Imperio'd Arthur, Unwilling Filicide