KITCHEN SINKs can clog

[Melody]

No: HPFGUIDX 45503

While I would like to write this as a TBAY, I must say I have not yet
discerned all the nuances of the main voices on this list to create
any sort of dialogue that is remotely accurate.  My apologies.  Y'all
are a diverse bunch to keep track of but greatly intriguing.


So let?s begin...

Pippin composed:
> "Oh, I see." says Pippin.  "So Dumbledore must accept that
> there is no good and evil, only the power to defeat Voldemort and
> those too weak to use it?"


Ummm, Pippin, I hate to point it out, ok I am slightly please :), but
you quoted that part of canon wrong.  The quote goes,

"There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to
*seek* it..."  (PS/SS, Ch 17)  [the astericks are my own]

I know that one word is so small but there is a big difference between
*seeking* and *using*.  There is nothing wrong with using power.  It
is why power is bestowed in the first place, so the person could use
it.  The problem with *seeking* power is that it implies that the
seeker is desiring power.

It is said often that the best person for the job is the one that does
not want it.  To desire to be so strong and powerful is an exercise of
ego.  (as I wink to bugaloo37 <g>)  For Quirrel to say that there is
no evil or good means that he believes that he/Voldemort alone is
capable of deciding the fate of their actions.  That is what power is.
 You are a judge, jury, and jailor.  For those that pursue power, the
thought is intoxication.

I will say that Dumbledore definitely would not fit that description.
 He has even been given the chance to become more powerful as Minister
of Magic, but declined it for a more *rewarding* job, I assume.  Of
course being a MD supported, I must say that Dumbledore refused the
job for that reason *and* to enable him the free time to bring about
the inner workings of his offensive/defensive plan.  :)  Also gives
his the advantage of the flexibility of Hogwarts with different
teachers and students...

But you scream, Dishwasher!Dumbledore does use his power to control
everything!  Dishwasher!Dumbledore abuses his power and manipulates
all around him to *His* bidding and not their own!  He is no better
that if he Imperius'ed the lot and played pure puppetmaster!

Honey, breath please.  :)  Dishwasher!Dumbledore uses his power to
observe the world around and see how they make decisions and what
their morals are.  From that vantage point, he can make strategic
moves to bring about the fall of Voldemort with little interference.
He does not force the decisions on the "helpless victim" in your mind,
but rather nudges them into situations that he knows they will perform
to the best of their ability.  You send certain soldiers into battle
for different missions.  Once in battle, they alone choose their own
fate, but if the general knows his men, then he is able to predict
their responses and protect his men.

Now as the books progress, Dumbledore has discovered that it will
involve many more than he planned, and thus makes the decisive
decisions to include the student body and activate the "old crowd",
but that is another post...

As to your comparisons of Manipulator Dumbledore with Voldemort, I can
only say, have you ever watched the movie Primal Fear?  The premise of
the movie is -sometimes some very good people do some very bad
things.-  That is how the defense lawyer defended his job as the
purveyor of good not releaser of bad.  My point is that tough
decisions, one that go against the ideals, sometimes need to be made
for the good of all involved.  I am not talking a Catch 22, but it is
of the same sort.  Dumbledore can still greatly respect honor and
bravery and still make those hard decisions...decisions that could
turn out to be a bad thing.

After all, the problem listees have with making Dumbledore a kind of
manipulator is that Dumbledore has always been written as being good
and perfect in every way.  Manipulating can be a dirty business.  Good
Grandfather Dumbledore would not dabble in something so shaky.  That
high wire is very high and surrounded by a high gale wind.  But as I
said before, if anyone can walk it, Dumbledore can and still not
resort to using the weapons of the enemy against them.


Pippen continued:
> "Yet Dumbledore goes and rewards Neville for his utterly
> pointless and completely misguided gallantry in front of the
> whole school. He not only rewards him, he does it in a way that
> makes it clear he thinks it's the Gryffindor Edge to fight a
> hopeless battle just because you're too, well, noble, to do
> something that would have had a lot better chance of success."


So you say that Dishwasher!Dumbledore would not award Neville points
at the end of PS/SS.  He would not see that Gryffindor winning the
house cup would not be detrimental to school moral.  Now I am not
saying that Dumbledore would fix the House Cup...no, no, no...he would
not do that...he is too noble...honest...shall I say, idealistic to do
that.  For Dumbledore believes the best house should win.  Always.
The point system, the givers, and the takers are never biased.  (Yeah,
and I am never sarcastic either. <grin> )

Nevertheless, you argue that by bestowing the points, Dumbledore is
encouraging such acts of interference.  Acts that could stop his plan
of action.  Possibly, possibly, but I think Dumbledore knows The Trio
and knows that very few thinks can stop them when they are driven.  In
fact, the only things that do stop them are physical (broken leg,
petrified), environmental (wall of rock in chamber, not there), and
chance (not enough freezing potion for two).

Yet, never the less, Dumbledore did reward the courage it took Neville
to stand up to his friends.  We cannot deny that.  We can ponder his
motives but not the facts.  And really, has Dumbledore's encouragement
of this action brought new resolve to Neville?  Has Neville stood in
the way of The Three sneaking around and into girl's bathrooms in CoS?
 Did it even bring Neville to stop Harry from sneaking in Hogsmeade
when the grounded Neville had the chance in PoA?  Neville doesn't even
confront The Three when they show up with food from the kitchen, which
has been obviously nicked by them.  Really, what encouragement did
Dumbledore provide that day?  Dishwasher!Dumbledore would have
probably figured Neville would be happy with his ten points and forget
why he earned them.


Oh but Pippen continues furthur:
> "Because all he had to do was snitch to Percy. (Although, if
> anyone had ever found out, Neville would have got his head
> transfigured into a toilet.  I am sure Amos Diggory would gladly
> do the same to Dishwasher!Dumbledore, if he could. )


I think it would be Percy's head that would be transfigured.  Who
other than Dumbledore would believe Neville anyway?  As for Diggory,
it is my turn guys; Dumbledore did NOT see the TriWiz Cup Portkey
twist!!  In Dumbledore's perception, Cedric was not in more any danger
than any of the other students whose name is not Harry.

(Though I think it would of been amusing if just Cedric grabbed the
cup, and when he portkeyed to the graveyard, a disappointed Voldemort
commanded Pettigrew to take him back and grab Potter and returned to
the graveyard leaving Cedric dazed and confused.  But that is my
musing and would probably loosen the tension of the scene sequence a
bit.  Anyway...)


> As Pippin cranks her can(n)on into position, GrayWolf,
> Bluesqueak and Melody can see the writing on the side:
>
> K.I.T.C.H.E.N.S.I.N.K. -- Knighthood Is Triumphant, Chivalry
> Happily Endures, Neville Shows It's Not Kaput


Anyone have some Mrs. Skower's All-Purpose Magical Mess Remover around
here to clean this mess up?

Melody