[HPforGrownups] The Corruption Of Fudge?

[eloiseherisson at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 45606

Dan:
> There's something all together "wrong" about the character of Fudge. 
> Apologies if this has been bought up before but I couldn't find 
> anything so I thought I'd run with this thread


No, you're not the first on this list to suspect that there's something up 
with the Minister for Magic, but as it's a subject dear to my heart (FIE!)*, 
I'm glad to see it raised again.

<>> Rumour has it that Fudge is either one of these:
> 
> 1) Working for Voldemort. A Death Eater and a faithful servent
> 2) Used to work for Voldemort but doesn't now
> 3) Is a corrupt official who is only interested in his own power 
> levels and allies with certain *people* to keep himself at a high 
> level
> 4) A bumbling ignorant
> 

My own view is that he is several of these, as you will see.


> First, lets take a look at Fudge's actions and parts in each of the 
> books, then look at the pros and cons of the above theories
> 
> PS/SS
> 
> We are first made aware of the character of Fudge when Hagrid 
> collects Hagrid. Hagrid is dismissive of him which leads the question 
> as to how Fudge became Minister of Magic? He says that they wanted 
> Dumbledore for the job but he refused showing that the candidates are 
> probably not elected by the general public. So how do they get in? 
> Are they voted for within the Ministry? 

This is another question that has been raised before, but I'm not sure that I 
remember that particular piece of evidence being brought to bear 

OK, quiet there, I'm sure that lots of people did. I just don't recall.

It could be that Dumbledore declined to stand for election. OTOH, it could be 
that the Minister is selected (but by whom? the PM?) as is the case with 
Muggle Cabinet Ministers. The political stucture of the WW and its 
relationship with Muggle government are far from clear.

I think it's fairly obvious that in RL, it is not always the best candidates 
for the job that get into positions of high office. In the WW, it does rather 
seem that having influence is rather important. 

> 
> We also see that Fudge is very reliant on Dumbledore for advice. I 
> can't see Dumbledore sitting back and letting Fudge take control if 
> he had any suspicion that Fudge was dodgy. 

But, in fact as you point out later, in some ways he *isn't* in control. 
Perhaps Dumbledore feels Fudge is safer where he is. Dumbledore advises him 
and so has great influence at the highest level, whilst being free of the 
constraints of office.
I don't think Dumbledore views him as 'dodgy' as such, although he evidently 
has misgivings about his true nature and character. If he were more competent 
and less dependent on Dumbledore, then he would be potentially more 
dangerous. This is one reason why The Parting of the Ways is so significant.

> 
> Later, Dumbledore is called away under suspicious circumstances. Now, 
> Dumbledore is not perfect but he is surely not idiot enough to be 
> fooled by a fake letter. He appears to have an eerie knowledge of 
> what goes on in and around Hogwarts the vast majority of the time. He 
> appears to have known Quirrel for awhile so would not be fooled by a 
> fake sig. Is it purely coincidental that Fudge called Dumbledore away 
> at that time? Could this mean he may have been in cahoots with 
> Quirrel? Or that he pulls of what I call "the Polonius" and behind 
> his bumbling exterior, he, like Polonius in Hamlet, is actually quite 
> sharp underneath it all, put two and two together quicker than 
> Dumbledore and sent an owl out telling Dumbledore to get himself down 
> to the Ministry?

Do we actually know it was *Fudge* who called Dumbledore to the Ministry?
I see no problem in a fake communication of some kind being employed to dupe 
Dumbledore. If Fudge *were* being sharp, then it wasn't sharp enought to 
realise that Dumbledore *needed* to be at Hogwarts.

The call to London, if it ever existed, is surely not coincidental. (I have 
great problem with the story that Dumbledore got to London and then flew back 
again in the space of those few hours, I must confess.) As a side note, I 
have recently come to the conclusion that his rapid return may have been in 
response to a summons from Snape after he overheard the Trio discussing the 
fact that he (as they thought) knew how to get past Fluffy.
> 
> Book 2, we see Fudge in the flesh for the first time and he is 
> alligned with Lucius Malfoy. Bad sign. We see throughout that he has 
> a lot of respect for Malfoy. In fact, its nothing short of ass 
> kissing. In fact, he's supposed to be the Minister. I get the feeling 
> that Fudge isn't that well off so likes to latch on to people that 
> are: the Malfoys. 

Or even more, the fact that Lucius has lots of *influence*, one way and 
another. That is to say, people are *frightened* of him *and* he has outward 
respectability from his charitable donations.

> 
> Anyway, he enters Hagrid's hut with Dumbledore and Lucius in tow. 
> He's not willing to overrule Lucius when he wants Dumbledore out. He 
> is the Minister, he probably could demand that Dumbledore stay if he 
> wanted to. Recent example of this at work is recently when two pupils 
> were expelled from a school, the headteacher and governers all agreed 
> on their expulsion but an appeal court allowed them back in. Although 
> there is a huge fuss about it, unless the parents pull the pupils 
> out, there's not a lot anyone can do about it. I think we need to 
> take a look at who really is the Minister here! It seems that Lucius 
> and Dumbledore (linked as they are the advisories of Fudge) are 
> jointly in charge through Fudge! Its a strange situation

It is, indeed. Fudge, frankly is an incompetent. He normally depends on 
Dumbledore for advice, but given a choice between him and Lucius, I think 
he'd go with Lucius, because Lucius is *dangerous* in the short term in a way 
Dumbledore isn't. Dumbledore gives second chances, doesn't he? Lucius, OTOH, 
threatens to curse the families of those who don't co-operate with him. I 
think it is fairly safe to assume that even if he didn't make the same kind 
of threats to Fudge as he did to the school governors, Fudge might be 
frightened of what he might do.

How does he get away with it? I'd love to know, but he does seem fairly 
unassailable, doesn't he? I wonder if it is because he knows things about 
Fudge?

> 
> He shows more loyalty to Lucius than Dumbledore although he feebly 
> protests. He takes Hagrid to Azkaban which shows the first signs of 
> his bias. An old rumour of an event fifty years ago and the fact that 
> Hagrid is a half giant is enough to convince him.

Well, we know what Dumbledore says later about Fudge having too much respect 
for so-called purity of blood.
And details of what happened fifty years ago and how much was known or 
believed about Hagrid's involvement are rather confusing (and the subject of 
long and heated recent debate).

> 
> Does he know about the diary? Well, at the moment its like asking if 
> Gertrude knew about Old Hamlet's murder. You just don't know. If he 
> did then why take Hagrid away? Leave him there and when Ginny 
> disappears, say its Hagrid's fault, Tom will finish Harry off, 
> destroy the diary, get Voldemort back. If he didn't, why leave the 
> school undefended against a creature from hell? 

I don't think he knew about the diary. That was Malfoy's fiendish little 
plot. Why leave the school undefended? Well, I don't think he believed the 
Monster of Slytherin story. I think he must either have believed that Hagrid 
was in some way responsible and that the attacks would stop, or that at the 
least, removing Hagrid would at last prove his guilt or innocence. Or that's 
the story Malfoy spun to him. I think it's clear that his actions here are 
dictated by Malfoy.

> 
> Book 3
> 
> Ok, he had more of a key role in PoA. He was the first to meet Harry. 
> He knew exactly where to be, his timing was perfect. Outside the 
> Leaky Cauldron. He's supposed not to have known Harry had caught the 
> nightbus. Ern and Stan couldn't have relayed a message to them as:
> 
> 1) They thought he was Neville Longbottom
> 2) Harry was with them the whole time
> 3) I wouldn't imagine either of them could leave or apparate "just 
> like that" In fact, I wouldn't imagine them being able to apparate at 
> all
> 
> So what was Fudge doing there? It seems too much of a coincidence to 
> be a coincidence, the fact that he was there just as the bus pulled 
> up.

It is, indeed. A huge coincidence. And he doesn't even seem surprised that 
Harry turns up. I can't explain it at all. Unless the Dumbledore's Watch 
people are right and it is Dumbledore who has told Fudge where he was. But 
even if he had located himn on the bus, he wouldn't necessarily have known 
where it was bound.

> 
> Also, the overheard conversation. I didn't realise it until the 
> fourth book had all sunk in but a comment Fudge made, made me very 
> suspicious. I don't have the third book on me at the moment so it may 
> not be the exact quote but here is the gist of it:
> 
> "you know who alone and friendless is one thing but give him back his 
> most devoted servant and I shudder to think how fast he will rise"
> 
> Well, Voldemort's servant did escape that night. Granted, Fudge will 
> obviously think its the wrong person (Sirius) but either way you look 
> at it, whether you believe Sirius' innocence or not, Voldemort's 
> *faithful* servant did escape that night. So in GoF Fudge suddenly 
> dismisses the idea that Voldemort has returned. Does he believe that 
> Sirius is dead? Does he know that Sirius is innocent, that Wormtail 
> has gone back but does not believe that he is faithful? Its a very 
> odd situation seeing that as Sirius has eluded everyone's clutches 
> and the Dementors apparently weren't searching for him in GoF as he 
> could take risks such as breaking into people's houses, nobody (or at 
> least nobody who is willing to talk) knows anything about Sirius' 
> whereabouts, wouldn't it occur to Fugde, what with the hysteria of 
> the previous year, that Sirius may have sought out Voldemort? (On a 
> side note, why has Dumbledore not told Hagrid about Sirius' 
> innocence?)

Good point. As will become clear, I tend to the interpretation that he knows 
of Sirius' innocence. His dismissal of Voldemort's return, though I think is 
unrelated.

> 
> Fudge also appears at the end and about Sirius' escape, the first 
> thing a respectable politician may consider is, "oh God, people's 
> safety" As far as we know that Fudge is concerned, this guy is a 
> remorseless killer who thinks nothing of murdering innocent victims. 
> Yet what is the first thing he says: (apologies again for not getting 
> the exact quote)
> 
> "we had Black cornered and he slipped through our fingers again. I'll 
> be a laughing stock, the Daily Prophet'll have a field day"
> 
> His own image appears more important than people's saftey.

I think this is also dead on.

 <>> 
> Also, back to the overheard conversation Fudge says he was first on 
> the scene of Sirius' arrest. This is an idea I heard on another 
> board, so I can't take credit for it but its a good theory. Its that, 
> Fudge maybe took bribes from people such as Malfoy to get to the 
> scene of a crime and destroy evidence linking them to it.,.

Good possibility, though I have a different theory.

> <>
> Notice when the Malfoy's come in Fudge pays them a lot more respect 
> than he does the Weasley's. We know why he pays Harry *respect* but 
> he bows and goes into "bumbling old fool" mode. Again, the comparison 
> with Polonius. And notice how he conveniently fails to hear Malfoy's 
> directed insult at Arthur. Does he hear it and secretly agree with 
> Malfoy? Or choose not to acknowledge it as he wants to stay onside 
> with Malfoy because of his wealth and the power he has? Also, note 
> that Lucius doesn't let his "respectable citizen" act drop around 
> Fudge which could signify that he is bothered about what Fudge thinks 
> or what he can get out of Fudge if Fudge learns to trust him. I 
> suspect the latter. 

I think this all has to do with the fact that Fudge has an old-fashioned, 
well, more than that, reactionary, elitist mindset. I think he genuinely 
shares values with Malfoy. He dismisses Arthur for the same reasons as Malfoy 
does.
And yes, they have a symbiotic relationship. Malfoy's influence may have 
helped Fudge get where he is and be helping to keep him there and having the 
Minister for Magic in your pocket is pretty useful for Malfoy. Just why has 
that secret cache under his living room floor never been investigated, I 
wonder?

> <>Also, after the fiasco with the Dark Mark, Fudge is noticibly absent 
> from the forest scene. The high ups of the Ministry are there. Crouch 
> snr, Malfoy (although of course in disguise) but Fudge is absent. 

I'm not with you about Malfoy, here. He *isn't* an MoM official as far as I'm 
aware and appears to have been running about in DE get-up, Muggle-baiting at 
the time.

As 
> is Dumbledore from the whole thing which is surprising as we know 
> he's started to put two and two together what with Frank Bryce and 
> Bertha Jorkins. Could Fudge's disappearence be due to the fact that 
> he was in the crowd that tortured the Robertses? 

No, I don't think we can imply this. We don't know where he was, but we don't 
know that he was missing, either. 

Even the most blind o> f people must have noticed Malfoy's blatent bigotry 
> against 
> everything remotely related to Muggles. And the disappearence (what 
> happened to the body?) of Frank Bryce doesn't bother Fudge all that 
> much, despite the fact that he should know Tom Riddle's history. And 
> if Dumbledore has kept what happened in CoS from him, it must be for 
> a good reason. He's the Minister Of Magic.

As you say, Frank Bryce is a Muggle and Fudge is too short-sighted to believe 
anything from the Muggle world to have importance to the WW. Dumbledore tells 
us that keeping up with Muggle news is unusual. As for the body....I think we 
can probably assume that Nagini *did* get fed that night, despite Pettigrew's 
reprieve.

<>
> Then he tries, for want of a better term, to fob Harry off and send him back 
> to class. 
> He must know he came up to Dumbledore for a reason. So why try and 
> send him away? Does he think he knows something and might spill and 
> this is Fudge's way of being discreet? 

Mm... you know, I think this is just the sort of thing that happens. I don't 
find it anywhere near as annoying as Snape's preventing Harry from reaching 
Dumbledore to tell him about the madness of Mr Crouch.

> 
> Also, interesting that Fudge has stationed himself inside the grounds 
> as he's going to become the judge for the third task. Could this be 
> so he can excuse himself from apparating to Voldemort due to the "no 
> apparation on the Hogwarts grounds" thing? Does he want to avoid 
> Voldemort but make out to him that he is a faithful servant by 
> keeping an eye on things at Hogwarts? <>

Valid point, though I think not.

> <>I think, no matter what side Fudge is on, 
> Cedric's death knocked him temporarily for six. <>
> 
> But then; aha! Suspicous part! He shouts that Harry needs to get to 
> the hospital wing. Then, right on cue, who should appear but 
> Moody/Crouch who suggests the hospital wing. Interesting coincidence. 
> And if you don't believe in coincidences, this is extremely dodgy. 
> Fudge doesn't turn and try and calm the crowd. Is Fudge purposely 
> distracting Dumbledore so Crouch can get Harry away to kill him while 
> at the same time signalling for Crouch to take him as if Fudge 
> himself disappeared, the crowds would know that something is amiss 
> and he does not want to give up his position as Minister?

 If you want to believe that Fudge *is* an active Voldemort supporter, then 
yes, it is highly suspicious. OTOH,his lack of trying to do anything to stay 
the crowd's alarm may simply be because he's supremely incompetent.

> 
> And Fudge doesn't bother coming up for himself. If Dumbledore hasn't 
> told him that something is up, his trust is wavering and if he hasn't 
> then Fudge's position is now extremely dodgy. Its Dumbledore, 
> McGonagall and Snape who appear. However, in Fudge's defence, Crouch 
> doesn't mention him once under Veritaserum

What Dumbledore needs at that moment is trusted, *competant* wizards. Snape 
and McGonagall will get onto the same wavelength, believe him, trust him, 
obey him instantly.
Dumbledore doesn't have time to argue the toss with Fudge, then have him 
bumbling in, saying "Look here, perhaps we'd better hear what Moody has to 
say for himself, etc,". Fudge *fudges*. Dumbledore is a decisive man of 
action.

And in any case, he *should* have been with Cedric's parents.

> 
> Dumbledore tells Snape to go to the grounds and find Fudge. What is 
> Fudge doing? If he was with the Diggory's, Dumbledore would have 
> said, "go and find Fudge, he's talking to the Diggory's" and later he 
> states that he must speak to them, so it seems as if he doesn't know 
> exactly where Fudge is at that moment. Wouldn't Fudge have gone up to 
> the school when he noticed Dumbledore, McGonagall and Snape all gone?

In that confusion? I don't know. I'm inclined to think he may have gone to 
pieces a bit!

> 
> Then its THE scene. The big one. Fudge strides up the ward and 
> demands to see Dumbledore and is livid. What reason has he got to be 
> livid? 

The insubordination of Dumbledore's staff?

He's destroyed Crouch... if I was anyone else, I'd be upset or > 
> glad the mess is sorted more than anything about what's happened. And 
> also, what distracted Dumbledore's attention? He tells Harry that 
> he "must meet with Fudge" Also, note he doesn't call him Mr Fudge, 
> he's always insisted Harry call Snape, Professor. But he isn't 
> bothered by addressing Fudge, who's the equivilent of Prime Minister 
> by his proper name. Is this a sign of lack of respect and suspicion? 

I haven't got examples to hand, but I have a strong feeling that Dumbledore 
is rather inconsistent in the matter of how he addresses and expects students 
to refer to others.

> When he says that he must meet with Fudge he goes but when Fudge 
> comes back he demands to know where Dumbledore is. So Dumbledore 
> can't have gone to seen Fudge. 

Or they missed each other.

It must have taken some time to grab a > Dementor, get it to Hogwarts, get it 
> to suck Crouch's soul, then hotfoot it down to the hospital wing. So where 
> did Dumbledore go? We know it wasn't to see the Diggory's. He saw them 
> later. And he 
> obviously didn't know that the Dementor was around or he wouldn't 
> have let it in, he'd have sent it out, so he would have to be far 
> removed from the situation as it took place.

Good questions. Dunno!

> 
> Snape says that Fudge felt that "his personal safety" was in 
> question. Why? What reason has Crouch got to harm him? And wouldn't 
> he still be doped up after the Veritaserum? Surely Snape told Fudge 
> about the Veritaserum before the Kiss? 

*Exactly!* Just what might he go on to say under the influence of 
Veritaserum? Does he know any of Fudge's secrets?
It is true that he doesn't finger Fudge ender the influence of Veritaserum, 
but then he only answered the questions Dumbledore *asked*. Not the ones he 
might have gone on to ask.

> 
> Then, the big line IMO. 
> 
> "the moment that - that thing entered the room" she screamed pointing 
> at Fudge, trembling all over, "it swooped down on Crouch and...
> 
> This is McGonagall here! She's pretty cool usually, maximum 
> composure. And she gestures at Fudge when she says "that thing".

Loyalty to Dumbledore, I think and a sharing of his horror of Dementors.

 And > Molly Weasley's comment later, "he knows what Fudge is" What is Fudge?
> And it said that Dumbledore then saw him clearly for the first 
> time... Very dodgy

I simply interpret that as the 'proper wizarding pride' thing again and 
Dumbledore's realisation of the lengths to which he will take it and of how 
deep his head is stuck in the sand.

> 
> And he keeps smiling, its not hysterical like Sirius, he keeps 
> grinning, "a curious smile", "a strange smile" Then he starts about 
> Harry being a Parseltongue. Anything that discredits what Harry's 
> saying

He really doesn't want to believe that Voldemort is back. I think he has his 
reasons.

> 
> <>
> 
> The pros and cons of the four points are all in there. 
> What's everyone's theory? 1,2,3 or 4
> 
> 
Well, I first got interested in Fudge as a result of a private obsession with 
the problem of why Pettigrew was unarmed in the Shrieking Shack, despite the 
fact that Animagi seem to transform along with their accoutrements.

Like you, I homed in on the fact that Fudge was on of the first at the scene 
of Pettigrew's faked death.
Like you, I was curious about his attitude to Sirius (and also about the fact 
that Sirius never tried to prove his innocence).
Like you, I was intrigued by why he acted so preciptately in the matter of 
the Kissing of Barty Crouch.

In conclusion, I hatched a theory that he was Pettigrew's accomplice, 
destroying or hiding Sirius' wand and substituting Pettigrew's 'guilty' one 
in its place.

I speculated that his apparent concern to find Harry and the personal lengths 
he went to to keep abreast of the Sirius Black situation were precisely 
because he didn't want the innocent Sirius to have the chance to get 
Dumbledore (either directly or via Harry) on his side.

I speculated that he might have been one of Rookwood's network within the 
MoM.

I did not suggest that he was actually a DE (whom I believe to be Voldemort's 
*inner* circle), but that he was corruptible and had done things during 
Voldmort's ascendency that he had a vested interest in keeping quiet.

I *do* think that he really doesn't want to believe that Voldemort has 
returned. After all, he fudges. Now he will have to decide where his 
loyalties lie. And he wants a quiet life!

This is just a brief summary. I originally posted my ideas in message number 
35393 and it was followed up in the Cornelius Fudge is Ever-So-Evil thread.

So, in conclusion I don't think he is exactly any one of the four categories 
you suggest, but a bumbling incompetent who made some pretty big mistakes, 
got involved indirectly with Voldemort's machine and allowed himself to be 
corrupted in the pursuit of personal gain and now really, really doesn't want 
Voldemort back, not just for the reasons that any good wizard would want him 
back, but also because there are debts that may be called in and divided 
loyalties that need to be settled.

Time will tell!

Eloise

* FIE = Fudge Is Evil, the rallying cry of those of us who think that he is 
more than a Chamberlain-like figure.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]