Sirius & the Dementors/Lupin

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 45875

Julie Strangfeld asked regarding Sirius and the Dementors:

> So, when he's transformed into Padfoot, and chasing Scabbers out 
on 
> the Hogwart's grounds . . . the 100 dementors come out and force 
him 
> to change back to a human.  
> 
> My questions, how and why did they find out and force him?
> 
My theory is that Sirius was not forced to change back to human form but that he did it intentionally to get hold of Scabbers to recapture him, since only Pettigrew in the flesh could exonerate Sirius.  The sequence of events is this:  (i) Harry yells out that Pettigrew has transformed into a rat, (ii) Sirius goes after him, (iii) after checking on Ron, Harry and Hermione hear "a yelping, a whining, a dog in pain,(iv) Harry and Hermione go after Sirius, and Harry feels the cold then, (v) the yelping stops just before they get there because Sirius has just transformed again, and (vi) Harry sees the Dementors coming.  

The thing I find telling is the yelping in pain.  IIRC, there is no suggestion anywhere that the Dementors cause pain, so something else must have made Sirius yelp in dog form.  Sirius was gashed from his encounter with Lupin the werewolf, but it seems odd that he'd run all the way across the grounds after Scabbers/Petigrew, then stop and yelp in pain while the Dementors -- a much more immediate threat to Sirius -- closed in.  Therefore, I theorize that Sirius might have been grappling with Scabbers/Pettigrew as the Dementors approached, and that Scabbers fought back by biting (remember how Scabbers bit Goyle on the train in PS/SS?), and that Sirius turned back to human form to get Scabbers.  Under this theory, Sirius did not sense the presence of the Dementors until he transformed, partly because he was too focused on Scabbers/Pettigrew and partly because as a dog he was less affected by them.

On whether Lupin suspected Sirius of being the spy before Lily & James died, Barb said:

> While it is clear that Lupin meant that Sirius thought Lupin was the spy 
> back before the Potters were killed, it is unlikely that Lupin meant that 
> he thought Sirius was the spy at the same time, since he knew Sirius was 
> the Secret Keeper (this is the "change" that Peter was referring to).  

And Eloise responded in part:

I think one of the tragic things about the situation before Voldemort's fall 
was that it was almost impossible to trust anyone. We're told what the 
atmosphere was like at the time. The situation was so bad that even three men 
who had trusted each other as completely as Sirius, Lupin and James could 
harbour suspicions about each other. Dumbledore suspected there was a spy in 
the organisation. So did Sirius. Therefore I suppose that Lupin must also 
have done so at the time. So who did he suspect?

The thing that I find odd if it refers only to his beliefs *after* the event 
is the use of the word 'spy'. In the context of James' and Lily's deaths, I 
would have thought something like 'betrayer' or even 'murderer' (referring as 
well to the Muggle deaths and Pettigrew's apparent death) might have come 
more readily to mind, rather than 'spy' which seems to me to refer more 
generally to the leaking of information prior to the event.


Me:
Based on the conversation in The Three Broomsticks we learn that Dumbledore "was sure that somebody close to the Potters had been keeping [Voldemort] informed of their movements" and suspected that somebody had turned traitor (McGonagall is the source, so I think it's credible even though I think she learned all this from Dumbledore well after the fact).  She also says that Dumbledore himself was so worried he offered to be the Secret-Keeper himself.  And as Eloise points out, the fact that Lupin uses the word "spy" indicates that both he and Sirius knew there was a spy before the Potters' deaths.  Therefore I think everyone was aware that there was a spy, and the only question was which of them it was.  Lupin had to suspect someone.

The group of people "close to the Potters" who could have been the spy waslimited to those who knew them well enough to know their movements.  I think it was limited to the Potters' very close friends, basically the "old crowd" Dumbledore identifies at the end of GoF.  It's a very small group of people consisting of perhaps no one other than Sirius, Lupin, Arabella Figg and Mundungus Fletcher.  Unless Lupin suspected Pettigrew despite the general consensus that he wasn't up to that sort of thing, the only other candidates were Sirius, Arabella, Mundungus Fletcher or Dumbledore himself.  Maybe he should have suspected Mundungus Fletcher, that old hexer and false claim artist.  But I don't think he did.  And Arabella?  Well, I think she was Lily's best friend and godmother to Harry (even though that sounds a bit Cinderella-ish, and, yes, I believe she's been using an Aging Potion over on Privet Drive), but Lupin didn't have any reason to suspect her.  So Sirius becomes the choice by default.  

Barb again:
>Second, I hardly think Lupin would have felt at the fringes with three 
friends who >went out of their way to become Animagi and accompanied him 
during the full >moon.  

Eloise:
I don't find it at all hard to imagine that with the burden of his 
lycanthropy and the social exclusion he must have experienced before coming 
to Hogwarts, Lupin found it very difficult to believe he was entirely 
accepted by his friends.
And I hate to say it, <ducking brickbats> but he could almost just have been 
an *excuse* for the others to work on the dangerous and exciting project of 
becoming Animagi and of going off on their monthly adventures. Or he could 
have interpreted it that way, depending how secure he felt in his 
friendships.

Me:

I must echo Eloise's version of events.  Lupin harbored a great deal of insecurity despite the friendship of WPP.  Lupin seems to have been so grateful that they didn't abandon him that he would do just about anything to maintain their friendship.  For example, he never voiced his concerns about the danger they were putting themselves into.  Moreover, I believe that the Prank was a very disturbing event to Lupin as well as to Snape, which may have given Lupin a lingering impression that Sirius *was* using Lupin's condition as an excuse for fun and games.  Looking back, I see that when I detailed back in June why Sirius might suspect Lupin I talked about what the Prank might have done to their relationship --  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39781.  And if Lupin did feel this way about Sirius, then it's easy to understand how Lupin could have suspected Sirius, if he knew there had to be a spy and he had only a limited group of people to choose among.  I don't think Sirius would be above suspicion merely because he was the known Secret-Keeper.  I think part of the guilt Lupin's been carrying all these years was that he had suspected Sirius but kept it to himself because he half thought the suspicions were the result of his own irrational insecurities.  In fact, both Lupin and Sirius made tragic errors in not being open with one another.

Debbie
  


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